From info at art-action.org Tue Jul 1 02:31:31 2008 From: info at art-action.org (Les Rencontres Internationales) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 23:01:31 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] OPENING IN BERLIN 2008 ::: FILM / VIDEO / MULTIMEDIA [EN] [DE] [FR] References: <13df7c120806292300m2fcc5725o7302bbb49e6fc65b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <486949AB.62A1A24C@art-action.org> dear readers, for those who are currently in Berlin and around. best jfr ====================== IN ENGLISH BELOW AUF DEUTSCH UNTEN EN FRANCAIS PLUS BAS ====================== ------------- IN ENGLISH | ------------- ||||| RENCONTRES INTERNATIONALES #16 ||||| PARIS / BERLIN / MADRID ||||| NEW CINEMA AND CONTEMPORARY ART ||||| IN BERLIN, JULY, 1-6 2008 ||||| Program: http://art-action.org/en_prog.htm *** Please forward this information *** //////////////////////////////////////////////////// OPENING - Tuesday, July 1 - 7PM AT THE HAUS DER KULTUREN DER WELT SCREENING AT 20pm - CONCERTS AT 9 AND 10pm / Remco2 / Thomas Köner FREE ENTRANCE. Access map: http://art-action.org/en_info_lieux.htm http://art-action.org/download/hkw_map.pdf //////////////////////////////////////////////////// >From the 1st to the 6th of July + + + + + + FILM AND VIDEOSCREENINGS (video, documentaries, fiction, experimental) + + + + + + With in particular: > a Carte blanche by Pedro Costa (PT). > The latest video by Antoni Muntadas (ES) " On Translation: Miedo/Jauf ", premiered in Berlin. > Christelle Lheureux (FR), Manon de Boer (NL), Alfredo Jaar (CL). > Adel Abidin (Irak/FI), Knut Asdam (NO), Herman Asselberghs (BE). > A rare film by Gordon Matta-Clark (USA). > Hans Op De Beeck (BE). Emmanuelle Antille (CH), Olivo Barbieri (IT), François Bucher (CO), Steven Cohen (ZA), Carles Congost (ES), Jon Mikel Euba (ES), Ken Jacobs (USA), Ane Lan (NO), Francis Naranjo (ES), Yves Netzhammer (CH), Norbert Pfaffenbichler (AT), Carlos Pazos (ES), Nicolas Provost (BE), Volker Schreiner (DE), Lawrence Weiner (USA). + + + + + + VIDEOSCREENING IN LOOPED + + + + + + >From the 2nd to the 6th of July, from 4 to 8pm. With in particular: Kader Attia (FR), Tony Cokes (USA), Daniel Crooks (AU), Charly Nijensohn (AR), Joan Leandre (ES), François Bucher (CO), Johanna Domke (DE), Peter Downsbrough (USA). + + + + + + FORUM + + + + + + >From the 2nd to the 4th of July, from 2pm. Each day, a professional from France or Germany will present his or her work within a structure or institution, and will transmit practical information and ideas on questions linked to production and distribution. + + + + + + PANEL DISCUSSION + + + + + + Saturday, July 5 & Sunday, July 6, from 2pm. The Rencontres Internationales invites curators, museum directors and art critics from European in the fields of contemporary cinema, video and new media. This year in Berlin, the panel discussion focuses on the theme: Fluctuating boundaries between visual arts and cinema. On the stakes, questions, and problems connected to programming using new audiovisual forms, between the domains of contemporary art and cinema. PARIS/BERLIN/MADRID In 2007, the Rencontres Internationales, which initially took place in Paris and Berlin, opened up to a third city: Madrid. The event now constitutes a unique artistic and cultural platform in Europe for artists, professional networks and different audiences. The Rencontres Internationales reflects the specificities and convergences of art practices between new cinema and contemporary art, explores emerging art practices and their critical purposes and allows this necessary time when points of view meet and are exchanged. The event wishes to contribute to a reflection on our contemporary culture of image via a demanding program open to everyone. The event wishes to contribute to a reflection on our contemporary culture of image via a demanding program open to everyone. Detailed program: http://art-action.org/en_prog.htm //////////////////////////////////////////////////// >From the 1st to the 6th of July At the HAUS DER KULTUREN DER WELT John-Foster-Dulles-Allee 10, 10557 Berlin Subway S5, S7, S9, S75 to Hauptbahnhof / Bus 100 to HKW //////////////////////////////////////////////////// ------------ AUF DEUTSCH | ------------ ||||| RENCONTRES INTERNATIONALES #16 ||||| PARIS / BERLIN / MADRID ||||| JUNGER FILM UND ZEITGENÖSSISCHE KUNST ||||| IN BERLIN, 1.-6. JULI 2008 ||||| Program: http://art-action.org/en_prog.htm *** Bitte leiten Sie diese Informationen weiter *** Vom 1. bis 6. Juli 2008 gestalten die 16. Rencontres Internationales erneut einen Entdeckungs- und Reflexionsraum zwischen Jungem Film und zeitgenössischer Kunst im Haus der Kulturen der Welt. Die Rencontres Internationales laden Sie herzlich zur Eröffung, am 1. Juli ab 19 Uhr im Haus der Kulturen der Welt ein. Der Eintritt ist frei. //////////////////////////////////////////////////// ERÖFFNUNG - Dienstag, 1. Juli - ab 19 Uhr IM HAUS DER KULTUREN DER WELT PROJEKTION 20 Uhr - KONZERTE 21 Uhr & 22 Uhr / Remco2 / Thomas Köner EINTRITT FREI. Anfahrt: http://art-action.org/en_info_lieux.htm http://art-action.org/download/hkw_map.pdf //////////////////////////////////////////////////// Vom 1. bis 6. Juli 2008 in Berlin + + + + + + FILMPROJEKTIONEN IM SAAL (Dokumentarfilme, Junger Film/Fiktionen, Videos, Experimentalfilme) + + + + + + mit u.a. : > einer Carte Blanche für Pedro Costa (PT). > der aktuellen Videoarbeit von Antoni Muntadas (ESP): On Translation: Miedo/Jauf (Premiere). > Christelle Lheureux (FR), Manon de Boer (NL), Alfredo Jaar (Chile), Adel Abidin (Irak/FI), Knut Asdam (NO), Herman Asselberghs (BE). > einem bisher unveröffentlichten Film von Gordon Matta-Clark (USA) > Hans Op De Beeck (BE). Emmanuelle Antille (CH), Olivo Barbieri (IT), François Bucher (CO), Steven Cohen (Afrique du Sud), Carles Congost (ES), Jon Mikel Euba (ES), Ken Jacobs (USA), Ane Lan (NO), Francis Naranjo (ES), Yves Netzhammer (CH), Norbert Pfaffenbichler (AT), Carlos Pazos (ES), Nicolas Provost (BE), Volker Schreiner (DE), Lawrence Weiner (USA). + + + + + + VIDEOPROJEKTIONEN IM LOOP + + + + + + Vom 2. bis 6. Juli, 16 bis 20 Uhr. mit u.a.: Kader Attia (FR), Tony Cokes (USA), Daniel Crooks (AU), Charly Nijensohn (AR), Joan Leandre (ES), François Bucher (C0), Johanna Domke (DE), Peter Downsbrough (USA). + + + + + + FORUM + + + + + + Vom 2. bis zum 6. Juli um 14 Uhr. Täglich treffen hier je ein/e Vertreter/in aus Frankreich und Deutschland zusammen, präsentieren die Arbeit und Struktur einer Institution und geben praktische Informationen und Anregungen zu Fragen der Produktion und Verbreitung von Werken. + + + + + + DISKUSSIONEN + + + + + + Am 5. und 6. Juli von 14 bis 16 Uhr. Mit der Beteiligung von Direktoren und Kuratoren von Nationalmuseen, Zentren zeitgenössischer Kunst und Biennalen aus dem Bereich Video, Neue Medien und zeitgenössischer Film. Dieser Bereich präsentiert Positionen der Kritik, des Publikums und der Künstler selbst.. Die Diskussionen werden zu einem Ort des Austauschs rund um folgende Thematik: Fließende Grenzen zwischen visueller Kunst und Film - Herausforderungen, Fragen und Problematiken bei der Programmplanung für neue audiovisuelle Formen im Bereich der zeitgenössischen Kunst und des Films PARIS/BERLIN/MADRID Fanden die Rencontres Internationales anfänglich in Paris und Berlin statt, haben sie sich 2007 einer dritten Präsentationsstadt geöffnet: Madrid. Die Veranstaltung bildet damit eine in Europa einmalige künstlerische und kulturelle Plattform für Künstler, Netzwerke und verschiedene Publikumsbereiche. Die Rencontres Internationales präsentieren Positionen und Konvergenzen in künstlerischen Prozesse zwischen Jungem Film und zeitgenössischer Kunst. Sie erforschen multimediale Kunstformen und ihre kritischen Ansätze und werden zu einem Ort, wo sich die verschiedenen Standpunkte begegnen. Das detaillierte Programm: http://art-action.org/de_prog.htm //////////////////////////////////////////////////// Vom 1. bis 6. Juli 2008 in Berlin im HAUS DER KULTUREN DER WELT John-Foster-Dulles-Allee 10, 10557 Berlin S-Bahn S5, S7, S9, S75 bis Hauptbahnhof / Bus 100 bis HKW //////////////////////////////////////////////////// ------------- EN FRANÇAIS | ------------- ||||| RENCONTRES INTERNATIONALES #16 ||||| PARIS / BERLIN / MADRID ||||| NOUVEAU CINEMA ET ART CONTEMPORAIN ||||| A BERLIN, DU 1er AU 6 JUILLET 2008 ||||| Programme: http://art-action.org/fr_prog.htm *** Merci de faire suivre cette information *** //////////////////////////////////////////////////// OUVERTURE - Mardi 1er juillet - 19H A LA HAUS DER KULTUREN DER WELT PROJECTION 20H - CONCERTS 21H & 22H / Remco2 / Thomas Köner ENTREE LIBRE. Plan d'accés: http://art-action.org/en_info_lieux.htm http://art-action.org/download/hkw_map.pdf //////////////////////////////////////////////////// Du 1er au 6 juillet à Berlin + + + + + + SEANCES EN SALLE (vidéo, approches documentaires, nouvelles fictions, expérimental) + + + + + + avec notamment: > Une carte blanche à Pedro Costa (PT) en sa présence. > La dernière œuvre vidéo d'Antoni Mundatas (ES), " On Translation: Miedo/Jauf " présentée en première à Berlin. > Christelle Lheureux (FR), Manon de Boer (NL), 'Alfredo Jaar (Chili). > Adel Abidin (Irak/FI), Knut Asdam (NO), Herman Asselberghs (BE). > Un film inédit de Gordon Matta-Clark (USA). > Hans Op De Beeck (BE). Emmanuelle Antille (CH), Olivo Barbieri (IT), François Bucher (CO), Steven Cohen (Afrique du Sud), Carles Congost (ES), Jon Mikel Euba (ES), Ken Jacobs (USA), Ane Lan (NO), Francis Naranjo (ES), Yves Netzhammer (CH), Norbert Pfaffenbichler (AT), Carlos Pazos (ES), Nicolas Provost (BE), Volker Schreiner (DE), Lawrence Weiner (USA). + + + + + + PROGRAMMES VIDEOS EN CONTINU + + + + + + Du 2 au 6 juillet, de 14 à 20h. Avec notamment: Kader Attia (FR), Tony Cokes (USA), Daniel Crooks (AU), Charly Nijensohn (AR), Joan Leandre (ES), François Bucher (C0), Johanna Domke (DE), Peter Downsbrough (USA). + + + + + + FORUM + + + + + + Du 2 au 4 juillet, à 14h. Un professionnel de France ou d'Allemagne intervient pour présenter son travail au sein d'une structure ou d'une institution, et apporte des informations pratiques et des éléments de réflexion sur des questions liée à la production et la diffusions des œuvres. + + + + + + DEBATS ET TABLES RONDES + + + + + + Les 5 et 6 juillet, de 14h à 16h. Les Rencontres Internationales invitent des curateurs, des directeurs de musées et des critiques d'art, dans les domaines du cinéma contemporain, de la vidéo et des nouveaux médias. Cette année à Berlin, les tables rondes se centreront sur la thématique suivante: Frontières fluctuantes entre les arts visuels et le cinéma. Enjeux et question/problématiques liées à la programmation de nouvelles formes audiovisuelles entre les domaines de l'art contemporain et du cinéma. PARIS/BERLIN/MADRID Initialement entre Paris et Berlin, les Rencontres Internationales se sont ouvertes en 2007 à une troisième ville de présentation, Madrid. La manifestation est désormais une plate-forme unique en Europe où les artistes peuvent se rencontrer, échanger avec un large public, développer de nouveaux projets. Les Rencontres Internationales rendent compte des spécificités et des convergences des pratiques artistiques entre nouveau cinéma et art contemporain, explorent les formes artistiques émergentes et leurs propos critiques, et permettent ce temps nécessaire où les points de vue se croisent et s'échangent. La manifestation souhaite ainsi contribuer à une réflexion sur notre culture contemporaine de l'image, au travers d'une programmation exigeante ouverte à tous. Programme complet : http://art-action.org/fr_prog.htm //////////////////////////////////////////////////// Du 1er au 6 juillet à Berlin à la HAUS DER KULTUREN DER WELT John-Foster-Dulles-Allee 10, 10557 Berlin Métro S5, S7, S9, S75 jusqu'à Hauptbahnhof / Bus 100 jusqu'à HKW //////////////////////////////////////////////////// From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 05:30:41 2008 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <505458.40322.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I find two problems with the point of view that this protest is for reasons of ecology\vigilantism against land occupation. 1. I quote from a news report "Protesters accuse the Indian government of planning to build Hindu settlements in India’s only Muslim majority state in order to change the demographic balance in the region." 2. Even if nothing is explicitly said,Its kind of naive to believe that "tens of thousands" of protesters have come into the streets for environmental reasons. > And until such a > statement > is made, we cannot say that it arises out of a > 'resentment towards > hindu pligrims'. There is enough circumstantial evidence for making the above conclusion. --- On Mon, 6/30/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra > To: "Pawan Durani" > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 9:57 PM > Dear Pawan, > > That is your opinion, not a substantiated fact. As far as I > have > seen, there has not been a single statement made against > Hindu > pligrims by anyone in the leadership or the constituency of > the > movement against land transfer in Kashmir. And until such a > statement > is made, we cannot say that it arises out of a > 'resentment towards > hindu pligrims'. People across the spectrum of > political opinion in > Kashmir have taken pains to point out that they welcome > pilgrims. And > the question of the acquisition of land has nothing to do > with > pilgrims. There is a long history of arbitrary acquisition > and > occupation of land, including orchards, schools, meadows, > pastures, > grazing comons and private homes in Kashmir, especially by > the Armed > Forces and paramilitaries, it is possible that the movement > we see > crystallizes the pent up feeling of anger against this long > history > of land acquisition. > > An audit of the impact of land acquisition on the ecology > and social > fabric of Kashmir (on both sides of the line of control) is > still > pending. > > best > > Shuddha > > > > On 30-Jun-08, at 9:24 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Dear Shuddha , > > > > > > > > While I may trust your belief in ecological fallout , > i completely > > disagree with your understanding that the issue is not > about the > > resentment towards hindu pligrims. > > > > > > > > It is all about that , non tolerance towards so called > hindus or > > what they love to call...."Kufr". > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/30/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > > > Just because a terrain does not have trees, or that > the altitude it > > is located in happens to be above the treeline, does > not mean that > > it is not ecologically sensitive. > > > > Often, it is precisely terrain of this nature, such as > for instance > > is at the vicinity of the mouth of the Gomukh glacier > above > > Gangotri,(again above the treeline) that is extremely > fragile and > > needs very careful nurturing. > > > > > > > > I know for a fact that the ecosystem of the Gomukh > glacial region > > is very badly threatened because of the completely > haphazard way in > > which access to this region (and the logistics of > pilgrimage and > > tourism) has been managed. I can very easily see that > something > > similar can happen in the case of Amarnath. > > > > > > > > I would urge you not to make the discussion of this > question into a > > 'Hindu' question. It is not one, it is about > the way in which State > > managed, so called, 'Temple Development > Boards', enter into schemes > > to grab land, and about the ecological consequences of > their land- > > grabbing propensities. > > > > > > > > You might recall that some months back you tried to > pose the > > question of the building of a shipping canal between > India and Sri > > Lanka as a matter of hurting Hindu sentiments. I > endorsed your > > opposition to the so called 'Sethu-Samudram > Shipping Channel' > > scheme, because to me it represented a threat to a > fragile marine > > ecosystem, not on the basis of its alleged injury to > Hindu > > sentiments. I also pointed out to you and to others on > the list > > that the protectors of Hindutva, while proposing a > Panama Canal > > style waterway cutting through the apex of the Deccan > peninsula as > > an alternative to the 'Sethu-Samudram' plan > were also proposing > > what was certainly a blueprint for an ecological > disaster. > > > > > > > > Opposition to the proposed (and now rescinded) land > grab proposal > > by the SASB in the Amarnath case does not > automatically translate > > into partisanship across the Hindu-Muslim question in > Kashmir. > > Those who translate it as such, whether they are > Hindu, or Muslim, > > are needlessly confusing a straightforward matter by > bringing their > > own secterian biases to bear on the issue. No one > should be misled > > by such attempts at confusion. > > > > > > > > best > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 30-Jun-08, at 4:44 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > >> Hello Shuddha , > >> > >> > >> > >> Lemme just inform everyone that , the land may > have belonged to > >> Forest > >> > >> Department , but there is no single tree over > there. > >> > >> > >> > >> Even when you reach Amarntah , there are no trees > over there , > >> becuase of > >> > >> high altitude. > >> > >> > >> > >> I visited the site, Baltal , two years back. > >> > >> > >> > >> Unfortunately the issue is not about ecology ..... > the way it has > >> been > >> > >> treated is a pure indicator that anything related > to Hindus is not > >> tolerable > >> > >> in Kashmir, and proves once again that it is not > "freedom" but > >> Islamic > >> > >> fanaticism which rules the shot in Kashmir. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Pawan > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 6/30/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> Dear Sonia, Dear Rashneek, dear all, > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Thank you, Sonia and Rashneek for the debate > on the Amarnath Yatra > >>> > >>> issue. The question of temple boards and their > closeness to power, > >>> > >>> and their lust for acquiring forest lands is > not unique to Kashmir. > >>> > >>> It also happens, as you will see below, (see > the report - > >>> Sabarimala: > >>> > >>> The Faith in Spate, by K.A. Shaji) in distant > Kerala. The ruling > >>> left > >>> > >>> front government in Kerala is as involved in > this game as anyone > >>> > >>> else, because 'Temple Boards' are > gold-mines and no state government > >>> > >>> wants to close an operation that earns them > the gold that can be > >>> > >>> mined in these gold mines. I am appending > below a report on the > >>> > >>> question of the Sabarimala Temple boards > desire for even more > >>> > >>> reserved forest land. The story is remarkably > resonant of the > >>> > >>> Amarnath issue. A local, highly culturally > specific, syncretic > >>> > >>> pilgrimage turning into the road-show of a > revivalist 'Hinduism', > >>> > >>> with lucrative revenue spin-offs. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I live in an area in Delhi where I have > witnessed every year, for > >>> the > >>> > >>> past few years - 'Chalo Amarnath > Chalo' (Let's go to Amarnath) > >>> > >>> posters and banners being put up by local RSS > functionaries. And > >>> > >>> there are active fundraising drives which > culminate in a > >>> cavalcade of > >>> > >>> Tata Sumos with the local 'Youth' > blaring 'bhajans' from their > >>> > >>> booming auto-sound systems taking off to go do > 'darshan' of the > >>> > >>> melting lingam. I don't think they (the > Sumo Pilgrims of my > >>> > >>> neighbourhood) really care whether or not the > forests of Kashmir go > >>> > >>> up in smoke. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I also know that the Sabarimala pilgrimage has > been twisted out of > >>> > >>> shape in a similar way, both by Hindutva > enthusiasts, and by > >>> > >>> construction contractors close to the ruling > Left Front. Fragile > >>> > >>> forests can barely sustain the burden of so > much sudden faith. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Incidentally, revivalist Hindus are by no > means alone in their > >>> > >>> disregard for the local heritage and > environment. The ruling > >>> > >>> dispensation in Saudi Arabia has effectively > turned the pilgrimage > >>> > >>> sites of Mecca and Medina into an > air-conditioned cultural > >>> wasteland. > >>> > >>> it has systematically destroyed shrines that > were considered holy by > >>> > >>> millions of Muslim pilgrims, especially from > South Asia, and > >>> > >>> completely transformed the intricate urban > fabric of Mecca and > >>> > >>> Medina. There is a long history of protest, > including in India, by > >>> > >>> Muslims against the way in which the Saudi > Government, in cohorts > >>> > >>> with the Wahabi establishment has wrecked the > topography of Mecca > >>> and > >>> > >>> Medina. Similarly, the Israeli state's > policy of expansion, through > >>> > >>> settlements, and building high security > segregated roads that cut > >>> > >>> through the west bank of the Jordan river are > often camouflaged > >>> under > >>> > >>> an appeal to scriptural sanction for > 'Greater' or 'Eretz' Israel. > >>> > >>> There is a great deal of money to be made in > pilgrimage, and it > >>> > >>> affords everybody an opportunity to make some > quick transformations > >>> > >>> of the landscape in the name of > 'infrastructure development' and > >>> > >>> 'settlement' , both of which are > euphemisms for speculation in real > >>> > >>> estate. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I am also appending a detailed report on the > environmental impact of > >>> > >>> what was proposed by the erstwhile governor > Gen (Retd) Sinha of > >>> Jammu > >>> > >>> and Kashmir for the Amarnath Yatra by Gautam > Navlakha that appeared > >>> > >>> recently in the website of a journal called > Kashmir Affairs. > >>> Finally, > >>> > >>> it is not my case that the acquisition of land > for the Amarnath > >>> Board > >>> > >>> (SASB) is wrong, and the acquisition of land > for the so-called > >>> > >>> 'Mughal Road', which has been pointed > out by Aditya Raj Kaul, in a > >>> > >>> recent post is wrong. Both are equally > disastrous from the > >>> > >>> environmental point of view. And the silence > of political formations > >>> > >>> (of all persuasions) on the environmental > impact of the revived > >>> > >>> Mughal Road and their recent discovery of > environmentalism (in the > >>> > >>> case of the Amarnath land transfer issue) does > make their commitment > >>> > >>> to environmentalism somewhat suspect. The > PDP's stance is > >>> > >>> particularly hypocritical, as the original > decision has been > >>> ratified > >>> > >>> by its own minister, (for Forest) in the > (Indian Held) J&K state > >>> > >>> government. Still, even if the commitment of > all the protagonists is > >>> > >>> suspect, I must say that I have rarely seen a > popular movement > >>> > >>> reverse a state-driven decision on an > 'environmental' issue, and the > >>> > >>> recent success of the agitation in Kashmir > (whatever be the motives > >>> > >>> that impelled it) which has resulted in a > reversal of the Land > >>> > >>> Transfer issue is something to be grateful > for. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> These are issues that need to be seen quite > separately from > >>> secterian > >>> > >>> concerns. I hope this debate can help us see > them in that way. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> best > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Shuddha > >>> > >>> ------------------- > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> 1. Sabarimala: The Faith in Spate > >>> > >>> by K A Shaji > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> http://www.boloji.com/society/115.htm > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Legend has it that when Lord Ayyappa set out > to seek solitude, he > >>> > >>> settled upon Sabarimala. Its sylvan > surroundings and undulating > >>> > >>> terrain had made it an ideal retreat for the > bachelor god. The > >>> > >>> pristine monsoon forests had wrapped like an > ornament around his > >>> > >>> hermitage at the top of the hill. The Lord > believed to have called > >>> > >>> the area with tranquil atmosphere as his > poonkavanam (sacred > >>> forest). > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> A shrine inside the forest and a deity who > chose the calm > >>> ambience of > >>> > >>> hills and valleys has few parallels in the > country and outside. But > >>> > >>> now, it seems, all of the glories of > Sabarimala were a thing of the > >>> > >>> past. When mythology meets present-day > reality, Sabarimala is no > >>> more > >>> > >>> a chosen abode of the hermit God. During > January-February each year, > >>> > >>> more than 50 million devotees, as claimed by > the temple authorities, > >>> > >>> are thronging this forest temple for annual > pilgrimage, putting the > >>> > >>> fragile ecology of the region under severe > stress. Now, the holy > >>> hill > >>> > >>> is a synonym of increasing inflow of pilgrims, > inadequate > >>> > >>> infrastructure, a devastated environment and a > hapless wildlife. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> While the entire hill and the adjacent river > Pampa, the third > >>> largest > >>> > >>> river in Kerala, are stinking due to sewage > pollution and > >>> > >>> accumulation of garbage, the situation is not > much different in the > >>> > >>> administrative and spiritual circles of the > hill shrine. First, it > >>> > >>> was a controversy involving Kannada film > actress Jayamala and a > >>> group > >>> > >>> of orthodox Hindus, who questioned her claim > of touching the idol of > >>> > >>> the bachelor god defying the barricades meant > for preventing > >>> sexually > >>> > >>> active women from entering the hill shrine. > Then one of the highly > >>> > >>> revered traditional priests of the temple was > robbed of a large > >>> > >>> amount of money and gold ornaments during his > visit to the house > >>> of a > >>> > >>> woman engaged in flesh trade by a mafia gang. > And now, it is the > >>> turn > >>> > >>> of aged father of a senior priest to allege > that his son is under > >>> > >>> influence of a powerful Ezhava community > leader with shadowy nature > >>> > >>> and the leader's followers are using his > son to pocket the temple > >>> > >>> money. In the meantime, the Left Front > Government has disbanded the > >>> > >>> existing administrative body of the temple > citing corruption at high > >>> > >>> level and is preparing to enact a legislation > to keep the corrupt > >>> > >>> community leaders out of the administrative > body forever. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On monetary grounds, the temple is the third > largest in the country, > >>> > >>> standing very close to Tirupathi and > Guruvayur. The cash-strapped > >>> > >>> Kerala Government, despite its leftist > moorings, is depending very > >>> > >>> much on the income from the temple to meet > salary needs of its > >>> > >>> employees. In order to increase the revenue, > the successive > >>> > >>> governments and the so-called proponents of > development are > >>> > >>> vociferous of implementing multi-crore > construction plans in > >>> > >>> Sabarimala clearing forests and building a > concrete jungle in its > >>> > >>> place. But nobody in the spiritual and > administrative levels of the > >>> > >>> temple as well as the government establishment > are apprehensive of > >>> > >>> the increasing level of pollution and the > extreme level of > >>> > >>> deforestation. Their focus is entangled only > in the growing > >>> number of > >>> > >>> controversies and the commissions to be > available after the > >>> beginning > >>> > >>> of the construction work. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Located about 467 metres above sea level, the > Sabarimala temple is > >>> > >>> surrounded by 18 hills and situated inside > Periyar Tiger Reserve, > >>> one > >>> > >>> of the few safe havens for tigers in the > country. According to bird > >>> > >>> watcher B.Sethumadhavan, as many as 2000 > species of flowering > >>> plants, > >>> > >>> endemic and medicinal, have been identified > among the region's > >>> flora. > >>> > >>> `` About 63 species of mammals, some of them > endangered like tigers, > >>> > >>> elephants and lion tailed macaque live here. > So far, 223 species of > >>> > >>> birds and 45 species of reptiles including > King Cobra have been > >>> > >>> identified in this area,'' he said. > The ever- expanding number of > >>> > >>> pilgrims and mindless construction works are > posing severe threat to > >>> > >>> their very survival. Devotees of a Lord, who > believed to have loved > >>> > >>> the flora and fauna and their safekeeping, are > now on a rampage in > >>> > >>> the name of development forcing the wildlife > to move out of their > >>> > >>> traditional habitat. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> As per legends, the vehicle of Lord Ayyappa is > tiger. But, > >>> > >>> astonishingly, neither the tiger nor the > surrounding evergreen > >>> > >>> forests do not come in the list of priorities > before the |Travancore > >>> > >>> Devaswam Board, which administers the shrine. > ``There was an > >>> increase > >>> > >>> of 35 per cent in revenue while comparing with > last year during the > >>> > >>> November-December period. In the number of > visitors, the increase is > >>> > >>> of 19 per cent. These figures show the need > for immediate > >>> > >>> developmental works in Sabarimala. But there > are agencies like > >>> Forest > >>> > >>> Department which cry for tigers and > forests,'' alleges G.Raman Nair, > >>> > >>> outgoing president of the board. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> However, environmentalists and forest > officials are countering the > >>> > >>> allegation. ``The development works so far at > Pampa have made it > >>> > >>> impossible a soul-filling holy dip in river > Pampa. At least, two > >>> > >>> scientific studies conducted by > Government's own agencies had found > >>> > >>> that landslips and tremors would take place at > the holy hillock any > >>> > >>> time largely because of the extensive concrete > flooring at the > >>> temple > >>> > >>> premises. The devaswam is only interested in > money making. It has no > >>> > >>> concern for the impending dangers for both > nature and devotees,'' > >>> > >>> pointed out Sumesh Mangalassery, a member of > the environmental group > >>> > >>> Kabani. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> According to Sumesh, a panel of Kerala > Legislature on environment > >>> led > >>> > >>> by RSP leader A V Thamarakshan had submitted > 32 proposals to the > >>> > >>> Devaswam Board to protect Sabarimala around > five years back. But > >>> none > >>> > >>> of them were acceptable to the board. Even the > suggestions of Kerala > >>> > >>> State Pollution Control Board to minimise the > pollution of river > >>> > >>> Pampa were paid scant regard by the board. A > visit by Tehelka to > >>> > >>> Sabarimala found that river Pampa continues to > remain the main > >>> victim > >>> > >>> of the callous attitude of the authorities. It > gets choked in the > >>> > >>> temple area as solid waste including human > excreta; plastic bags, > >>> > >>> empty water bottles and coconut husks block > the free flow of water. > >>> > >>> About 35 million people took a holy dip in the > river between > >>> November > >>> > >>> and January, which is the major source of > drinking water for three > >>> > >>> districts. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> According to a study by the pollution control > board, the total > >>> > >>> coliform count recorded at the river portion > close to Sabarimala is > >>> > >>> about 1,14,000 per 100 millilitres (ML) during > the peak of > >>> > >>> pilgrimage. Just before the pilgrimage season, > it is merely 380 per > >>> > >>> 100 ml- well below the permissible limits of > 500 per 100 ml. > >>> > >>> According to local people, the overflow of > human faeces from sceptic > >>> > >>> tanks around the temple stands the major > reason of the pollution of > >>> > >>> the river. ``More than 3,000 temporary toilets > are functioning close > >>> > >>> to the temple in addition to about 600 > permanent toilets. The > >>> > >>> capacity of the sewerage treatment plant is > very limited,'' pointed > >>> > >>> out K.Anirudhan of Sabarimala Samrakshana > Samithy. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Most of the experts, who had conducted studies > on the pollution and > >>> > >>> environmental problems prevailing in > Sabarimala, point to the > >>> need of > >>> > >>> regulating the ever- increasing number of > pilgrims. ``Sabarimala is > >>> > >>> bursting at the seams with millions of > devotees now. Thirty or forty > >>> > >>> years ago, only around 50,000 pilgrims visited > the temple. Today, > >>> the > >>> > >>> number is fifty million and is rising at the > rate of 20 per cent > >>> > >>> every year. The ever-swelling flow resulted in > a major mishap on > >>> > >>> January 14, 1999, when 100 pilgrims died in a > stampede at the site. > >>> > >>> Indications are that Sabarimala is a disaster > waiting to be > >>> happen,'' > >>> > >>> warns noted Kerala based environmentalist P K > Uthaman. According to > >>> > >>> him, almost two thousand tonnes of human waste > are deposited in > >>> crude > >>> > >>> earth pits and outside in Sabarimala every > year. These wastes are > >>> > >>> finding their way into not only the river > Pampa but also to river > >>> > >>> Periyar by underground as well as over ground > rivulets, posing a > >>> > >>> threat great health hazard for the pilgrims as > well as those living > >>> > >>> downstream. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> In addition, the lack of post pilgrimage > cleaning drives often > >>> result > >>> > >>> in unabated flow of hazardous waste into the > rivers. The temple area > >>> > >>> has already been converted into a concrete > jungle where guesthouses > >>> > >>> and other structures are constructed > haphazardly all around. They > >>> are > >>> > >>> meant for temple officials, priests, VVIPs and > police personnel. > >>> > >>> According to M.Gopal, a pilgrim from Bangalore > who visited > >>> Sabarimala > >>> > >>> this year, human excreta and plastic waste > were found strewn just > >>> > >>> outside the Sannidhanam (the main building of > the temple). As per > >>> > >>> data available from forest department, over > 2.5 lakh empty plastic > >>> > >>> bottles of packaged water were collected from > inside the tiger > >>> > >>> reserve. The number of tetra packs collected > would come around 4.5 > >>> > >>> lakh. The temple complex of the hermit, who > believed in renunciation > >>> > >>> of earthly attractions, is now filled with > commercial shops selling > >>> > >>> products ranging from gold ornaments to dress > materials. All these > >>> > >>> shops were constructed by clearing forests. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ``The total time available for darsan as of > now is a total of 1431 > >>> > >>> hours, i.e. 515160 seconds. If a darsan goes > on one at a time basis > >>> > >>> and a devotee gets a second, the total > strength of the pilgrims can > >>> > >>> only be 5,15, 160 per year. If ten people > could somehow cluster > >>> > >>> together per second for darsan, the maximum > number would be > >>> > >>> 51,51,600,'' points out a document > prepared by |School of Social > >>> > >>> Sciences at Mahatma Gandhi University on > behalf of Kerla Forest > >>> > >>> Department. The document also questions the > claims of the board that > >>> > >>> over 50 million people visit the temple > annually. But anyway, the > >>> > >>> number of pilgrims' visting Sabarimala is > many times more than its > >>> > >>> capacity. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ``The authorities must find out some mechanism > to regulate the > >>> > >>> alarming increase in the number of pilgrims. > Sabarimala is not only > >>> > >>> an environmental but also a social > disaster,'' opined Dr.Rajan > >>> > >>> Gurukkal of School of Social Sciences. Now a > day, the uncontrolled > >>> > >>> flow of pilgrims from various entry points is > resulting in people > >>> > >>> swarming all around the protected sanctuary > leading to man –animal > >>> > >>> conflicts. Recently, an elephant trampled upon > one pilgrim. Then it > >>> > >>> was found that the pilgrims were sleeping in > the corridor used by > >>> the > >>> > >>> elephants for going to the river to drink > water at the night. A > >>> large > >>> > >>> number of such corridors were already > disrupted due to the > >>> > >>> construction works undertaken in the recent > past. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> According to Sedumadhavan, the authorities are > even paying scant > >>> > >>> attention on the safety of pilgrims. As many > as 12,000 litres of > >>> > >>> diesel are being stored just above the > sannidhanam without any > >>> > >>> storage licence or safety parameters. They are > also keeping a large > >>> > >>> number of crackers near the sanctum sanctoram > without any safety > >>> > >>> concern. The only solution on the part of > Trvancore Devaswom Board > >>> > >>> for all problems plaguing Sabarimala is > denudation of nearby forests > >>> > >>> and setting up new amenities. According to > Rajan Gurukkal, such an > >>> > >>> attempt would be disastrous as all the > existing problems of > >>> > >>> Sabarimala can be viwed as the after effect of > deforestation. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> The devaswam board has already ruined about > 55.09 ha of > >>> forestland in > >>> > >>> the name of sabarimala development. In the > opinion of > >>> > >>> environmentalists, they demand more forests to > cut and smuggle out > >>> > >>> precious trees and construction of further > concrete strctures with > >>> > >>> ulterior motives. Maintaining the sanctity of > the shrine and the > >>> > >>> precious eco-system never appeared a priority > before them. So far, > >>> > >>> the devaswam board was constituted once in > five years by nomination > >>> > >>> of people with no administrative acumen at the > behest of successive > >>> > >>> governments. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Rajan Gurukkal and his team at School of > Social Sciences have > >>> > >>> prepared a long-term action plan for saving > Sabarimala from the > >>> > >>> sequence of disasters in the offing. But the > lobbies of corrupt and > >>> > >>> communal elements are not allowing the > devaswam to look into them. > >>> > >>> Even the small step of Left Government in > disbanding the existing > >>> > >>> devaswam committee is being interpreted as an > attempt by atheists to > >>> > >>> interfere in Hindu religious matters. The move > by left government to > >>> > >>> appoint experts in place of politicians at the > board also facing > >>> > >>> opposition from Sangh Parivar organisations, > who claim as custodians > >>> > >>> of Hindu places of worship. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> The board and its corrupt administrators were > not able to get their > >>> > >>> hand on the forest so far due to stringent > central acts and Supreme > >>> > >>> Court rulings. But even the outgoing members > are repeating their old > >>> > >>> slogan of `no development in Sabarimala would > be possible without > >>> > >>> deforestation.' Unless the authorities > change their attitude from a > >>> > >>> revenue-centred approach to a pilgrim centred > aprach, there is not > >>> > >>> much hope. But they still repeat that > development (read > >>> > >>> deforestation) could not be stopped for the > sake of a few birds and > >>> > >>> animals. ``The board had neither faith in > environmental protection > >>> > >>> nor in religious sanctity,'' opines > Rajan Gurukkal. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Decongestion of base town Pampa by increasing > facilities at a > >>> > >>> relatively distant town of Nilakkal, > demolition of unauthorised > >>> > >>> concrete structures at Sannidhanam and Pampa, > cleaning of the river, > >>> > >>> better waste disposal facilities and > provisions of basic facilities > >>> > >>> for pilgrims without affecting ecology are the > urgent needs of > >>> > >>> Sabarimala. The tigers and elephants must be > protected. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> If there is no mechanism to check the number > of pilgrims, that would > >>> > >>> increase to two to three crores within years. > Moderate elements > >>> among > >>> > >>> the Hindu community are favouring a statutory > body for Sabarimala in > >>> > >>> line with Tirumala-Thirupathy Devasthanam and > Amarnath temple. > >>> Such a > >>> > >>> body consisting of experts from different > fields can change the > >>> > >>> course of priorities of the forest temple. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ----------- > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> 2. Amarnath Yatra: The Pilgrimage to Eco > Disaster > >>> > >>> Gautam Navlakha > >>> > >>> > http://www.kashmiraffairs.org/gautam_amarnath%20yatra.html > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Should one question the propriety of promoting > pilgrimage in a > >>> > >>> ecologically fragile area or wink at it in the > name of devotees > >>> right > >>> > >>> to free movement and worship? This question > comes to mind when > >>> > >>> looking at Amarnath Yatra especially the > phenomenal increase in the > >>> > >>> number of pilgrims. This increase is not of > few hundred or few > >>> > >>> thousand but runs into hundreds of thousands. > There has been a > >>> > >>> doubling of the period for pilgrimage from one > month to two this > >>> year > >>> > >>> as well as forty times increase in number of > pilgrims, from > >>> 12,000 in > >>> > >>> 1989 to 450,000 in 2005 (this year it is set > to cross 500,000) are > >>> > >>> cause for concern. In fact the actual period > is longer because a > >>> > >>> fortnight before the official yatra is > reserved for army men and > >>> > >>> their families to visit the Amarnath cave > through ecologically more > >>> > >>> vulnerable Baltal route. Moreover, in order to > provide security for > >>> > >>> pilgrims who come out in large number, the > paramilitary forces have > >>> > >>> to be deployed in large number. The current > deployment will be in > >>> > >>> excess of 20,000 for the entire period. Their > presence and stay > >>> > >>> cannot but affect the rise in pollution > levels. Inclement weather > >>> too > >>> > >>> is an issue because rains in the plain means > snow in the higher > >>> > >>> reaches. This results in crowding at the > camps, straining services > >>> > >>> including disposal of waste. But worse things > can happen as in 1996 > >>> > >>> when unexpected heavy snowfall resulted in > death of 243 pilgrims and > >>> > >>> injuries to hundred more due to avalanche. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> The State Pollution Control Board (SPCB), > recently in a 37 page > >>> > >>> report warns that generation of waste by > pilgrims, absence of waste > >>> > >>> disposal sites, open dumping of garbage, air > pollution, sewage > >>> > >>> generated by hotels, yatri camps and local > residential areas makes > >>> > >>> its way into Lidder river. The SPCB warned > that waste generated by > >>> > >>> pilgrims more than the local average and > primarily contains > >>> plastics, > >>> > >>> polythene and leftover food packets all along > the route. > >>> According to > >>> > >>> their calculation 55,000 kgs of plastic waste > is generated every day > >>> > >>> during the pilgrimage. Besides, thousands of > open toilets erected > >>> > >>> along the banks of Lidder river ensures that > effluents enter the > >>> > >>> river. Thousands of vehicles ply up and down > the mountains around > >>> > >>> Pahalgam all the way up to Chandanwari spewing > carbon monoxide. The > >>> > >>> Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB), which came > into existence on > >>> > >>> February 21, 2001, has been dismissive of such > claims. They assert > >>> > >>> that 230 pre-fabricated toilets being raised > in Nunwan base camp and > >>> > >>> human waste disposal off in leach pits with > micro-organism > >>> technology > >>> > >>> using Bokaslin powder and other chemicals > would take care of the > >>> > >>> problem. However, the issue is more than the > supposedly effective > >>> > >>> modern methods to manage waste. The sheer > presence of large mass of > >>> > >>> people is a cause for concern. Department of > Science and technology > >>> > >>> through its principal investigator on > glaciology has argued that > >>> "the > >>> > >>> ecology, the environment and health of the > glacier can be under > >>> > >>> severe threat in case the Baltal route to the > Holy Cave was > >>> > >>> frequented by thousands of pilgrims". And > pointed out that > >>> "depletion > >>> > >>> and degradation (of glaciers) are the result > of human breath, refuse > >>> > >>> and land erosion". (The Tribune July 5, > 2005). > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> It is disconcerting to note that opening of > Baltal route for > >>> pilgrims > >>> > >>> on foot and those using helicopters has > crossed several thousand > >>> > >>> every day. Apart from the Department of > Science and Technology of > >>> J&K > >>> > >>> government even the Nitish Sengupta committee, > which was constituted > >>> > >>> to look into the deaths of 243 pilgrims in > 1996 due to the > >>> snowstorm, > >>> > >>> had recommended that number of yatris be > restricted to 5000 per day > >>> > >>> for a period of one month and the total number > of pilgrims be capped > >>> > >>> at1.5 lakhs. According to them Baltal route > should allow 1500 > >>> > >>> pilgrims and Pahalgam 3500 per day. However, > the General JR > >>> Mukherjee > >>> > >>> committee, which looked into the cause of > death of 35 people, due to > >>> > >>> cross fire, during the 2000 yatra, focussed on > security arrangement > >>> > >>> and wanted the duration of the yatra to > increase as security > >>> scenario > >>> > >>> improved. But neither report looked at the > environmental impact of > >>> > >>> the yatra. Thus when the SASB invokes the > recommendations of the two > >>> > >>> committees what it does is to use it > selectively and link the number > >>> > >>> of pilgrims to the issue of managing security > for them. In this > >>> sense > >>> > >>> they underplay the question whether the > eco-system can bear heavy > >>> > >>> influx of pilgrims. This emphasis on > encouraging larger number of > >>> > >>> pilgrims shows its impact on the environment > in unexpected ways. > >>> Such > >>> > >>> as the SASB contemplating "air > conditioning" to preserve the shiva > >>> > >>> lingam from melting. The recent controversy > over the pilgrims > >>> > >>> alleging that the SASB has been constructing > the "snow lingam" is > >>> now > >>> > >>> being passed off as due to change in the > course of the water > >>> channels > >>> > >>> after last year's earthquake and global > warming. Without ruling this > >>> > >>> out human contribution to this phenomenon > cannot be ignored when > >>> > >>> glaciers are rapidly receding. As a matter of > fact yatra was never > >>> > >>> undertaken in June precisely because formation > of shiva lingam does > >>> > >>> not always take place then. Incidentally the > local people speak of > >>> > >>> "human" intervention in restoring > what is a natural phenomenon, as > >>> > >>> something that has happened in the past too. > This apart large number > >>> > >>> of pilgrims means that going gets tough as one > draws close to the > >>> > >>> cave with traffic jam being the order of the > day. At times pilgrims > >>> > >>> have to wait for hours for their turn. > Increase in dust in > >>> atmosphere > >>> > >>> too is caused by crowds of people as well as > helicopter service. The > >>> > >>> dust raised is visible from long distance > away. All this also means > >>> > >>> that individual pilgrims, that is other than > VIPs, are disallowed > >>> > >>> from spending more than seconds inside the > cave. Above all carbon > >>> > >>> dioxide levels shoot up warming the area all > around. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> It cannot be that the SASB is unaware of the > environmental concerns. > >>> > >>> If it receives short shrift it is because the > yatra has come to > >>> > >>> symbolise Indian government's > determination to promote its claim in > >>> > >>> J&K. That pilgrimage is being heralded as > victory against a movement > >>> > >>> demanding azadi from India is available in the > news portal of Indian > >>> > >>> government, Press Information Bureau. It says > that "yearning for > >>> > >>> moksha (salvation) can move the devotees to > the challenging heights > >>> > >>> of Kashmir and will be a fitting gesture of > solidarity with our > >>> > >>> valiant soldiers who have been fighting the > enemy to defend our > >>> > >>> borders". > (pib.nic.in/feature/feo799/f1507992.html). Thus what is > >>> > >>> otherwise merely a religious pilgrimage of the > Hindus has been > >>> > >>> elevated to represent a patriotic enterprise. > Besides, the SASB is > >>> > >>> headed by the Governor and his principal > secretary is the CEO of the > >>> > >>> SASB. Thus the Government of India is clearly > in charge of > >>> organising > >>> > >>> the yatra. And it is the SASB which has been > pushing for larger and > >>> > >>> larger numbers of pilgrims and challenging the > right of the state > >>> > >>> government from interfering in anyway with the > schedule announced by > >>> > >>> the SASB. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> It is true that not everyone who goes to > Amarnath accepts this > >>> > >>> association of religion with patriotism. But > the fact of the matter > >>> > >>> is that official perception of pilgrimage as > patriotic duty has > >>> > >>> allowed the communal fascist elements to join > in organising their > >>> > >>> supporters. Little wonder that frequency of > conflict between section > >>> > >>> of such 'pilgrims' and local > population due to their obnoxious > >>> > >>> behaviour has shown an increase. What is > equally disconcerting is > >>> > >>> that the SASB presided over by the Governor > has also been engaged in > >>> > >>> controversial transactions. The CEO of SASB is > the principal > >>> > >>> secretary to the Governor. Present CEO's > wife, in her capacity of > >>> > >>> Principal secretary forest department granted > permission to SASB on > >>> > >>> May 29, 2005 to use forest land. But this > provision was not in > >>> > >>> accordance with the provision of J&K > Forest Conservation Act 1997 > >>> > >>> and, therefore, the state government withdrew > the order. However, > >>> > >>> thanks to a stay order by a division bench of > the J&K High Court the > >>> > >>> withdrawal of permission to occupy forest > land, was suspended. Any > >>> > >>> visitor to Pahalgam can observe how this > forest land is being > >>> cleared > >>> > >>> to setup camps for the yatris. In fact now the > SASB has asked the > >>> > >>> state government to give them land in the > radius of 5kms of the > >>> cave. > >>> > >>> This arouses local passions precisely because > Indian security forces > >>> > >>> and other entities have transferred large > tracts of land to house > >>> > >>> camps for security force personnel, or for > central projects, as well > >>> > >>> as for schools which are run by army among > others. Even a pro-Indian > >>> > >>> National Conference party has protested such > transfers of land since > >>> > >>> 1989. Not very far from the camp for the > pilgrims in Pahalgam, in > >>> > >>> Lidru (opposite Kulan village) what locals > describe as one of the > >>> > >>> finest meadows, spread over 550 kanals (one > kanal=one eighth of > >>> acre) > >>> > >>> in area, has been given to the army to run a > school! Local > >>> population > >>> > >>> feels helpless at being unable to stop this. > Therefore, when SASB > >>> > >>> wants large tract of land transferred to it > under the claim of > >>> > >>> providing accommodation for lakhs of pilgrims > it must be weighed > >>> > >>> against this local concern. Were the numbers > of pilgrims to be > >>> > >>> brought down the pressing need for > transferring large areas to SASB > >>> > >>> or for providing carpet security and thus > deployment of force, > >>> can be > >>> > >>> brought down. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> This apart the SASB has also been involved in > other controversial > >>> > >>> acts. One such was the recent attempt by the > SASB to bring down the > >>> > >>> involvement of local people in the yatra. When > on June 5, 2006 the > >>> > >>> local pro-India Peoples' Democratic Party > (PDP) claimed that SASB > >>> was > >>> > >>> ignoring livelihood of locals, the SASB > countered by claiming that > >>> > >>> such criticism would generate controversy and > thus "jeopardise" > >>> > >>> tourism in Kashmir. Quite apart from the fact > that promotion of > >>> > >>> pilgrimage for commerce flies in the face of > proclaimed concern for > >>> > >>> people's faith PDP pointed out that if > local porters and ponywallahs > >>> > >>> can strike work at Vaishnodevi Shrine against > the (mis)management of > >>> > >>> the Shri Vaishnodevi Shrine Board (SVDSB) and > seek support from > >>> local > >>> > >>> Congress leaders then what is wrong if local > people from Pahalgam > >>> and > >>> > >>> Kangan areas seek their help to protest > against the practises of > >>> SASB > >>> > >>> which discriminate against them. In fact the > Pithoo Workers Union at > >>> > >>> Katra have protested the suspension of six of > their leaders, alleged > >>> > >>> manhandling by SVDSB officials and demanded > recall of its additional > >>> > >>> CEO. Neither the Governor as head of SVDSB nor > the Board issued any > >>> > >>> statement chastising the Congress party! > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Arguably, when yatra was halted between > 1991-96 due to threat of > >>> > >>> section of the militants it played into the > hands of the extreme > >>> > >>> right wing elements in Indian society who have > since then become an > >>> > >>> integral part of mobilising large numbers of > pilgrims. Thus a > >>> form of > >>> > >>> competitive communalism came into play. Thus > when section of the > >>> > >>> militants represented earlier by Harkatul > Ansar and now Lashkar-e- > >>> > >>> Taiyyaba or Jaish-e-Mohammed threaten to > disrupt the pilgrimage it > >>> > >>> only gets the backs up of the devout Hindus > opens them to vitriol of > >>> > >>> the rabidly anti-Muslim Vishwa Hindu Parishad > (VHP), Shiv Sena etc. > >>> > >>> and accentuates the communal divide. However, > it is equally > >>> important > >>> > >>> to note the actual fact that more people have > died in yatra due to > >>> > >>> inclement weather and cross fire than at the > hands of the militants. > >>> > >>> Besides, the main indigenous militant > organisation Hizbul Mujahideen > >>> > >>> has always supported the yatra and has > consistently demonstrated its > >>> > >>> opposition towards those who have tried to > disrupt the yatra. > >>> > >>> Moreover, prior to constituting SASB the state > government, local > >>> > >>> people and social activists provided aid and > assistance to the > >>> > >>> pilgrims. However, threat of environmental > damage has become a > >>> matter > >>> > >>> of utmost concern because the central > government under the cover of > >>> > >>> SASB remains unrelenting in its pursuit of > ever larger numbers to > >>> > >>> come for pilgrimage. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> In a way the Amarnath yatra illustrates the > way in which the Indian > >>> > >>> government injects communalism in our body > politic. And also > >>> > >>> represents how secularism in India has been > perverted to mean state > >>> > >>> patronage of religion/s. This patronage is not > equitably distributed > >>> > >>> since Hindus outnumber others by more than > eight times. Which is to > >>> > >>> say that between un-equals equality ends up > promoting Hindu > >>> religious > >>> > >>> practises. In Amarnath yatra, in fact, the > India government even > >>> > >>> discarded its pretended neutrality by > publicising the yatra as a > >>> > >>> patriotic duty! Consequently, the likelihood > of Amarnath pilgrimage > >>> > >>> getting mired in controversy, over > environmental damage and > >>> > >>> eventually feeding into further alienation of > people because they > >>> can > >>> > >>> do little to save damage to their lived > environment, has increased. > >>> > >>> Trouble is the Indian government cares little > for people and prefers > >>> > >>> to pander to the extreme rightwing by > projecting the yatra as a > >>> > >>> patriotic enterprise to boost the morale of > the Indian paramilitary > >>> > >>> forces. The very same force which the local > population regards as > >>> > >>> symbol of their oppression. Thus a bigger mess > is in the making > >>> right > >>> > >>> before our own eyes. > >>> > >>> --------------- > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >>> > >>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS > >>> > >>> Raqs Media Collective > >>> > >>> shuddha at sarai.net > >>> > >>> www.sarai.net > >>> > >>> www.raqsmediacollective.net > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media > and the city. > >>> > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> > >>> To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> > > ... > > > > [Message clipped] > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Jul 1 06:18:00 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 06:18:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra In-Reply-To: <505458.40322.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <505458.40322.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Rahul, Why is it naiive to believe that tens of thousands of protestors would take to the streets for environmental reasons? Are you trying to say that tens of thousands of protestors do not turn up on the streets for environmental reasons? As far as I know, tens of thousands of protestors routinely protested in the Narmada Valley for environmental reasons, on several occasions, across several years. Why should Kashmir be different? Having said that, I would like to underscore that I am not for a moment making a categorical statement, either way, about the sincerity of the sudden display of 'ecological consciousness' by elements within the Kashmiri separatist constiuency, or within any other segment in the Kashmiri political spectrum today. I have no way of gauging the sincerity of these entities when it comes to environmental issues. No one has any means of gauging their insincerity either. I am, in fact, not interested in sitting on judgement on whether the protestors are 'sincere' or not. I can see why there should be protests. And if there are protests, I think they ought not be dismissed on the basis of speculations about the purported 'sincerity' of the protestors. Furthermore, there is nothing that demonstrates to me that a sentiment against a change in the demographic profile of a region is identical to a sentiment against Hindu pilgrims. No one has said anything either implcitly, or explicitly about pilgrims. I will come to my take on the question of 'demographic shifts' later. Pilgrims are transients. They do not settle and change the demographic profile of a place. The protests are against the transfer of land. The transfer of land can legitimately raise the suspicion that permanent structures will be build on that land, (why else argue for a change in the status of the owner of the land). It is clear that the permanence of these structures does not have any relation to the duration or necessities of the traditional 'Pilgrimage Season' in Amarnath. It may be remembered, that even at the height of the Kashmir insurgency, when some groups had sought to attack the Amarnath pilgrims, the Hizbul Mujahideen, the largest and most significant armed Kashmiri secessionist outfit, issued statements against any attempts to attack Amarnath pilgrims. The Action Committee Against Land Transfer, the organization co ordinating the Anti land Transfer movement in Kashmir has categorically stated that it has nothing against pilgrims or the pilgrimage to Amarnath. None of this amounts, in my book, to an adequate amount of circumstantial evidence for 'sentiments' against pilgrims. Would it not be better if we saw the reality of this anger against the pattern of the forcible acquisition of land by state agencies in Kashmir. Let me conclude by saying that I do not think that anything done on 38.99 acres of land can amount to a demographic shift. And those who (in Kashmir) , even within the Action Committee Against Land Transfer are talking about a 'demographic shift' with reference to the Amarnath issue are pursuing a red herring. There is a real issue of the forcible acquisition of land by agencies of the state and the armed forces in Jammu and Kashmir, that is much wider in terms of its ramifications than the single issue of Amarnath alone. I for one, do not think that the presence of Bangladeshi immigrants in say, Assam, needs to be attacked because it represents the threat of a demographic shift to some people. There are good reasons why in some parts of India (in J&K under article 370 and under the Fifths Schedule of the Constitution in certain notified tribal areas in different parts of the country) non aborigionals or non-state subjects (in the case of J&K) are barred from acquiring landed property. These have to do with the histories of disposession and land alienation in these areas. But that does not mean that such people (non aboriginals and non state subjects) cannot live in these areas. To state that would be to confuse lived practices of habitation with the ownership of property, and to confuse the category of the citizen with the reality of the denizen. best Shuddha Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From pkray11 at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 06:56:46 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 06:56:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue Message-ID: <98f331e00806301826g1af66e90pacaacf4724a45a50@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, The protests and related debate since the central and state governments reached an agreement to transfer 100 acres of forestland to the Amarnath board which organizes the annual Amarnath yatra have taken an ugly and violent turn. Thankfully, the decision has been revoked. Now the democratic leaders must work to restore secular atmosphere. It must be recalled that the erstwhile monarchy used to grant favors to the religious heads in order to get social control and sanction. Such policies, unfortunately and dangerously, is still being continued by the political leadership. It is time to decide to discontinue the government policy to have religious bodies under the state's control and provide them unethical patronage. It is to be noted that the Governor heads the Hindu shrine boards and the chief minister heads the Muslim Wakfs. The government must get out of this kind of control and must restrict itself to provide the needed support to public who visit shrines, temples, mosques and other kinds of religious places and festivals/fairs. There must be a rethinking on the tax benefits extended to the religious bodies earning crores and crores of rupees. Such changes in policies should be applied to all over the country, not only in the J & K. I am not proposing to overlook the role of previous Governor or the misguided Congress leadership or the communal elements, particularly the BJP-VHP combine in making things worse. Certain elements, who mischievously claims to be representatives of the both communities, always use such tactics and situation to deepen the divide. I pray to the Almighty to grant them goodness. Regards, Prakash From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 10:12:33 2008 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 21:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <684388.26124.qm@web53605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Shuddha, >Would it > not be better if we saw the reality of this anger against for > the pattern > of the forcible acquisition of land by state agencies in > Kashmir. The key word here is "better".I would rather see things as they seem to me,for better or for worse.I am not an idealist.I do not want to see the world in a particular way.I am ready to be shocked by what I see and change my beliefs. The clear statement has been made that the anger is against what some quarters are seeing as the forcible attempt by the govt to make a demographic change.At least thats what I read in the reports.So thats the way I want to take it.The key word here is "demographic change".So, I do not find it beyond my comprehension to assume that if the land acquisition was for,say, opening a stud farm or growing roses,there would not have been tens of thousands of people protesting against it.The acquisition of land is the means.Creating demographic imbalance is the end.So,I would think that even a "friendly" way of creating demographic imbalance would generate the same protest,wouldn't it? You may want to believe,or rather,you may find it better to believe that the protests are against forcible acquisition of land by govt,or for ecological reasons.Or,you may believe that these causes are far greater than the actual reason behind the current protests.Thats your choice.I have no arguments against that. Then you make the case that the actual notion of affecting demographic shift is not convincing.I agree with you.In fact I would say its ridiculous that such a small area of land allocated for pilgrims can cause a demographic shift. You could be right. Maybe the protesters are worried about the forcible acquisition and environment,and for some strange reason,maybe just to confuse the hell out of us are carrying out their struggle against some imaginary demographic shift. Thanks Rahul --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra > To: rahul_capri at yahoo.com > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 6:18 AM > Dear Rahul, > > Why is it naiive to believe that tens of thousands of > protestors > would take to the streets for environmental reasons? Are > you trying > to say that tens of thousands of protestors do not turn up > on the > streets for environmental reasons? As far as I know, tens > of > thousands of protestors routinely protested in the Narmada > Valley for > environmental reasons, on several occasions, across several > years. > Why should Kashmir be different? > > Having said that, I would like to underscore that I am not > for a > moment making a categorical statement, either way, about > the > sincerity of the sudden display of 'ecological > consciousness' by > elements within the Kashmiri separatist constiuency, or > within any > other segment in the Kashmiri political spectrum today. I > have no way > of gauging the sincerity of these entities when it comes to > > environmental issues. No one has any means of gauging their > > insincerity either. I am, in fact, not interested in > sitting on > judgement on whether the protestors are 'sincere' > or not. I can see > why there should be protests. And if there are protests, I > think they > ought not be dismissed on the basis of speculations about > the > purported 'sincerity' of the protestors. > > Furthermore, there is nothing that demonstrates to me that > a > sentiment against a change in the demographic profile of a > region is > identical to a sentiment against Hindu pilgrims. No one has > said > anything either implcitly, or explicitly about pilgrims. I > will come > to my take on the question of 'demographic shifts' > later. > > Pilgrims are transients. They do not settle and change the > > demographic profile of a place. The protests are against > the transfer > of land. The transfer of land can legitimately raise the > suspicion > that permanent structures will be build on that land, (why > else argue > for a change in the status of the owner of the land). It is > clear > that the permanence of these structures does not have any > relation to > the duration or necessities of the traditional > 'Pilgrimage Season' in > Amarnath. It may be remembered, that even at the height of > the > Kashmir insurgency, when some groups had sought to attack > the > Amarnath pilgrims, the Hizbul Mujahideen, the largest and > most > significant armed Kashmiri secessionist outfit, issued > statements > against any attempts to attack Amarnath pilgrims. > > The Action Committee Against Land Transfer, the > organization co > ordinating the Anti land Transfer movement in Kashmir has > categorically stated that it has nothing against pilgrims > or the > pilgrimage to Amarnath. > > None of this amounts, in my book, to an adequate amount of > > circumstantial evidence for 'sentiments' against > pilgrims. Would it > not be better if we saw the reality of this anger against > the pattern > of the forcible acquisition of land by state agencies in > Kashmir. > > Let me conclude by saying that I do not think that anything > done on > 38.99 acres of land can amount to a demographic shift. And > those who > (in Kashmir) , even within the Action Committee Against > Land Transfer > are talking about a 'demographic shift' with > reference to the > Amarnath issue are pursuing a red herring. There is a real > issue of > the forcible acquisition of land by agencies of the state > and the > armed forces in Jammu and Kashmir, that is much wider in > terms of its > ramifications than the single issue of Amarnath alone. > > I for one, do not think that the presence of Bangladeshi > immigrants > in say, Assam, needs to be attacked because it represents > the threat > of a demographic shift to some people. There are good > reasons why in > some parts of India (in J&K under article 370 and under > the Fifths > Schedule of the Constitution in certain notified tribal > areas in > different parts of the country) non aborigionals or > non-state > subjects (in the case of J&K) are barred from acquiring > landed > property. These have to do with the histories of > disposession and > land alienation in these areas. But that does not mean > that such > people (non aboriginals and non state subjects) cannot live > in these > areas. To state that would be to confuse lived practices of > > habitation with the ownership of property, and to confuse > the > category of the citizen with the reality of the denizen. > > best > > Shuddha > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 10:17:33 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:17:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra In-Reply-To: References: <505458.40322.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6353c690806302147w11f8b8d3qd759066cea579609@mail.gmail.com> "Nothing is being said against the Pilgrims". Sad to see a few people here pushing this point a bit too much; maybe because they are out of their usual stock of arguments; because the situation is very clear here. The current situation in Kashmir has nothing to do with the so called environmental laws and ecological imbalance. The situation there hasn't reached a point yet where 40 hectare's of land for Hindu Pilgrims would bring with it mass destruction of trees, greenry and life. In turn, it would multiply the revenue generated by local Kashmiri Muslims and to some extent the government. The current communal protests in the valley come at a time when elections are round the corner and Amarnath Yatra is being carried on with lakhs of Hindu Pilgrims visiting it from across India. The main point here is the questions of Tollerance. Its a sad state. I don't think Muslims would have felt the same restrictions and protests in case of their Haj House's, structures etc. across India in every nook and corner. Its a sad state indeed. Communal Politics is being played to garner votes. Rather, PDP, CONGRESSS and NC are trying to score each other in the race for becoming the most communal outfit. The entire hue and cry on Land Transfer and the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board is completely tragic and absurd. Isn't the Shrine Board and Kashmiri Hindus part of Kashmir ? Then why these protests. Should we also demand that funds and land to various mosques in Kashmir including Hazaratbal be held back ? The violence in Kashmir has been sparked by a man called Mufti Mohd. Sayeed. A former Congress chamcha, he now has his own Peoples Democratic Party. He is famously known because his daughter's kidnapping and thereafter releasing of terrorists from Indian Jails in her exchange became the reason for unrest in Kashmir. Killing thousands. Mufti played a very active role in it; many say, he had all information about her daughter's kidnapping. This isn;t the first time Mufti's mouth blabbered and violence erupted on a non-issue. He with his old time Congress Party friend Arjun Singh were involved instigating and taking part in Communal Riots in Kashmir; back in 1986. In 1989-90, he remained a mute spectator to the exodus of an entire community from Kashmir. Rather, he became a part of those anti-national forces. This time around; he cautiously waited for the opportue time to act and turn things in his favour.. Rightly so. He had to appease a certain section as elections were round the corner. Sadly, he might not get what he expected. Anyways, lets leave that to time to tell. Those who scream at top of their voice about Demographic Changes are nothing but taking a bit too far. How much polulation would a 40 hectare land accomodate anyway ? The biggest demographic change was with the exodus of more than 3 and half lakh Kashmiri Hindus from the valley. Sadly, its a forgotten tragedy. As my great-grandfather was the first Ornithologist of Asia, I've some if not all information on Environment, its protection and also tilted government policies in relation to Kashmir especially. Major ecological imbalance occur when locals push tons of waste material and toxic substances into the lakes like the Dal. Many know what it has resulted it now. Also, the land mafia in Kashmir (Mufti being strong part of it) is another major force. They cut thousands of trees to clear land and sell illegally or maybe legally through corrupt administration and revenue officers. The massive destruction of the Pir Pangal range three years ago again by Mufti Mohd. Sayeed is now a wide known fact. No protests, no cabinet meetings etc. were seen in Kashmir then. Strangely, this questions the entire base of the protests today ? Its time people who blabber too much to know about Kashmir; for a change read history and understand the facts and details about Kashmir and its Politics. Lets cut the crap about protests in Kashmir about the environmental reasons behind Baltal Land Transfer. The locals don't give a damn to it. Its economy that runs on tourism through Amarnath Yatra. "Naara E-Takbeer - Aalah Hu Akbar" is no environmental slogan invented by Greenpeace. Shuddha, maybe you can enligten us on this. Its time the impotent Governmnet of India shows a strong force at the speratist and terroist elements in Kashmir who are sparking violence and encouraging and brainwashing locals against Hindus. Best Regards Aditya Raj Kaul On 7/1/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > Dear Rahul, > > Why is it naiive to believe that tens of thousands of protestors > would take to the streets for environmental reasons? Are you trying > to say that tens of thousands of protestors do not turn up on the > streets for environmental reasons? As far as I know, tens of > thousands of protestors routinely protested in the Narmada Valley for > environmental reasons, on several occasions, across several years. > Why should Kashmir be different? > > Having said that, I would like to underscore that I am not for a > moment making a categorical statement, either way, about the > sincerity of the sudden display of 'ecological consciousness' by > elements within the Kashmiri separatist constiuency, or within any > other segment in the Kashmiri political spectrum today. I have no way > of gauging the sincerity of these entities when it comes to > environmental issues. No one has any means of gauging their > insincerity either. I am, in fact, not interested in sitting on > judgement on whether the protestors are 'sincere' or not. I can see > why there should be protests. And if there are protests, I think they > ought not be dismissed on the basis of speculations about the > purported 'sincerity' of the protestors. > > Furthermore, there is nothing that demonstrates to me that a > sentiment against a change in the demographic profile of a region is > identical to a sentiment against Hindu pilgrims. No one has said > anything either implcitly, or explicitly about pilgrims. I will come > to my take on the question of 'demographic shifts' later. > > Pilgrims are transients. They do not settle and change the > demographic profile of a place. The protests are against the transfer > of land. The transfer of land can legitimately raise the suspicion > that permanent structures will be build on that land, (why else argue > for a change in the status of the owner of the land). It is clear > that the permanence of these structures does not have any relation to > the duration or necessities of the traditional 'Pilgrimage Season' in > Amarnath. It may be remembered, that even at the height of the > Kashmir insurgency, when some groups had sought to attack the > Amarnath pilgrims, the Hizbul Mujahideen, the largest and most > significant armed Kashmiri secessionist outfit, issued statements > against any attempts to attack Amarnath pilgrims. > > The Action Committee Against Land Transfer, the organization co > ordinating the Anti land Transfer movement in Kashmir has > categorically stated that it has nothing against pilgrims or the > pilgrimage to Amarnath. > > None of this amounts, in my book, to an adequate amount of > circumstantial evidence for 'sentiments' against pilgrims. Would it > not be better if we saw the reality of this anger against the pattern > of the forcible acquisition of land by state agencies in Kashmir. > > Let me conclude by saying that I do not think that anything done on > 38.99 acres of land can amount to a demographic shift. And those who > (in Kashmir) , even within the Action Committee Against Land Transfer > are talking about a 'demographic shift' with reference to the > Amarnath issue are pursuing a red herring. There is a real issue of > the forcible acquisition of land by agencies of the state and the > armed forces in Jammu and Kashmir, that is much wider in terms of its > ramifications than the single issue of Amarnath alone. > > I for one, do not think that the presence of Bangladeshi immigrants > in say, Assam, needs to be attacked because it represents the threat > of a demographic shift to some people. There are good reasons why in > some parts of India (in J&K under article 370 and under the Fifths > Schedule of the Constitution in certain notified tribal areas in > different parts of the country) non aborigionals or non-state > subjects (in the case of J&K) are barred from acquiring landed > property. These have to do with the histories of disposession and > land alienation in these areas. But that does not mean that such > people (non aboriginals and non state subjects) cannot live in these > areas. To state that would be to confuse lived practices of > habitation with the ownership of property, and to confuse the > category of the citizen with the reality of the denizen. > > best > > Shuddha > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 10:17:51 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:17:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70806300414k66445bfai709f596b9ab8368d@mail.gmail.com> <63FC64B5-4517-42C5-BC2C-55E4FF5B4BDE@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70806300854w547d1e45v989f78a8954d4899@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70806302147ua7b6912l204a51fdc6a4d3cb@mail.gmail.com> Shuddha , I hope you have an idea of how land belonging to Kashmiri Hindus were handed over to muslims in Kashmir under the garb of land reforms . I know that is very convenient for you to ignore ... Pawan On 6/30/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > > That is your opinion, not a substantiated fact. As far as I have seen, > there has not been a single statement made against Hindu pligrims by anyone > in the leadership or the constituency of the movement against land transfer > in Kashmir. And until such a statement is made, we cannot say that it arises > out of a 'resentment towards hindu pligrims'. People across the spectrum of > political opinion in Kashmir have taken pains to point out that they welcome > pilgrims. And the question of the acquisition of land has nothing to do with > pilgrims. There is a long history of arbitrary acquisition and occupation of > land, including orchards, schools, meadows, pastures, grazing comons and > private homes in Kashmir, especially by the Armed Forces and paramilitaries, > it is possible that the movement we see crystallizes the pent up feeling of > anger against this long history of land acquisition. > > > An audit of the impact of land acquisition on the ecology and social fabric > of Kashmir (on both sides of the line of control) is still pending. > > > best > > > Shuddha > > > > > On 30-Jun-08, at 9:24 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Dear Shuddha , > > > > While I may trust your belief in ecological fallout , i completely disagree > with your understanding that the issue is not about the resentment towards > hindu pligrims. > > > > It is all about that , non tolerance towards so called hindus or what they > love to call...."Kufr". > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > On 6/30/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> Dear Pawan, >> >> >> Just because a terrain does not have trees, or that the altitude it is >> located in happens to be above the treeline, does not mean that it is not >> ecologically sensitive. >> >> Often, it is precisely terrain of this nature, such as for instance is at >> the vicinity of the mouth of the Gomukh glacier above Gangotri,(again above >> the treeline) that is extremely fragile and needs very careful nurturing. >> >> >> I know for a fact that the ecosystem of the Gomukh glacial region is very >> badly threatened because of the completely haphazard way in which access to >> this region (and the logistics of pilgrimage and tourism) has been managed. >> I can very easily see that something similar can happen in the case of >> Amarnath. >> >> >> I would urge you not to make the discussion of this question into a >> 'Hindu' question. It is not one, it is about the way in which State managed, >> so called, 'Temple Development Boards', enter into schemes to grab land, and >> about the ecological consequences of their land-grabbing propensities. >> >> >> You might recall that some months back you tried to pose the question of >> the building of a shipping canal between India and Sri Lanka as a matter of >> hurting Hindu sentiments. I endorsed your opposition to the so called >> 'Sethu-Samudram Shipping Channel' scheme, because to me it represented a >> threat to a fragile marine ecosystem, not on the basis of its alleged injury >> to Hindu sentiments. I also pointed out to you and to others on the list >> that the protectors of Hindutva, while proposing a Panama Canal style >> waterway cutting through the apex of the Deccan peninsula as an alternative >> to the 'Sethu-Samudram' plan were also proposing what was certainly a >> blueprint for an ecological disaster. >> >> >> Opposition to the proposed (and now rescinded) land grab proposal by the >> SASB in the Amarnath case does not automatically translate into partisanship >> across the Hindu-Muslim question in Kashmir. Those who translate it as such, >> whether they are Hindu, or Muslim, are needlessly confusing a >> straightforward matter by bringing their own secterian biases to bear on the >> issue. No one should be misled by such attempts at confusion. >> >> >> best >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> On 30-Jun-08, at 4:44 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> Hello Shuddha , >> >> >> Lemme just inform everyone that , the land may have belonged to Forest >> >> Department , but there is no single tree over there. >> >> >> Even when you reach Amarntah , there are no trees over there , becuase of >> >> high altitude. >> >> >> I visited the site, Baltal , two years back. >> >> >> Unfortunately the issue is not about ecology ..... the way it has been >> >> treated is a pure indicator that anything related to Hindus is not >> tolerable >> >> in Kashmir, and proves once again that it is not "freedom" but Islamic >> >> fanaticism which rules the shot in Kashmir. >> >> >> >> Pawan >> >> >> >> On 6/30/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> >> Dear Sonia, Dear Rashneek, dear all, >> >> >> Thank you, Sonia and Rashneek for the debate on the Amarnath Yatra >> >> issue. The question of temple boards and their closeness to power, >> >> and their lust for acquiring forest lands is not unique to Kashmir. >> >> It also happens, as you will see below, (see the report - Sabarimala: >> >> The Faith in Spate, by K.A. Shaji) in distant Kerala. The ruling left >> >> front government in Kerala is as involved in this game as anyone >> >> else, because 'Temple Boards' are gold-mines and no state government >> >> wants to close an operation that earns them the gold that can be >> >> mined in these gold mines. I am appending below a report on the >> >> question of the Sabarimala Temple boards desire for even more >> >> reserved forest land. The story is remarkably resonant of the >> >> Amarnath issue. A local, highly culturally specific, syncretic >> >> pilgrimage turning into the road-show of a revivalist 'Hinduism', >> >> with lucrative revenue spin-offs. >> >> >> I live in an area in Delhi where I have witnessed every year, for the >> >> past few years - 'Chalo Amarnath Chalo' (Let's go to Amarnath) >> >> posters and banners being put up by local RSS functionaries. And >> >> there are active fundraising drives which culminate in a cavalcade of >> >> Tata Sumos with the local 'Youth' blaring 'bhajans' from their >> >> booming auto-sound systems taking off to go do 'darshan' of the >> >> melting lingam. I don't think they (the Sumo Pilgrims of my >> >> neighbourhood) really care whether or not the forests of Kashmir go >> >> up in smoke. >> >> >> I also know that the Sabarimala pilgrimage has been twisted out of >> >> shape in a similar way, both by Hindutva enthusiasts, and by >> >> construction contractors close to the ruling Left Front. Fragile >> >> forests can barely sustain the burden of so much sudden faith. >> >> >> Incidentally, revivalist Hindus are by no means alone in their >> >> disregard for the local heritage and environment. The ruling >> >> dispensation in Saudi Arabia has effectively turned the pilgrimage >> >> sites of Mecca and Medina into an air-conditioned cultural wasteland. >> >> it has systematically destroyed shrines that were considered holy by >> >> millions of Muslim pilgrims, especially from South Asia, and >> >> completely transformed the intricate urban fabric of Mecca and >> >> Medina. There is a long history of protest, including in India, by >> >> Muslims against the way in which the Saudi Government, in cohorts >> >> with the Wahabi establishment has wrecked the topography of Mecca and >> >> Medina. Similarly, the Israeli state's policy of expansion, through >> >> settlements, and building high security segregated roads that cut >> >> through the west bank of the Jordan river are often camouflaged under >> >> an appeal to scriptural sanction for 'Greater' or 'Eretz' Israel. >> >> There is a great deal of money to be made in pilgrimage, and it >> >> affords everybody an opportunity to make some quick transformations >> >> of the landscape in the name of 'infrastructure development' and >> >> 'settlement' , both of which are euphemisms for speculation in real >> >> estate. >> >> >> I am also appending a detailed report on the environmental impact of >> >> what was proposed by the erstwhile governor Gen (Retd) Sinha of Jammu >> >> and Kashmir for the Amarnath Yatra by Gautam Navlakha that appeared >> >> recently in the website of a journal called Kashmir Affairs. Finally, >> >> it is not my case that the acquisition of land for the Amarnath Board >> >> (SASB) is wrong, and the acquisition of land for the so-called >> >> 'Mughal Road', which has been pointed out by Aditya Raj Kaul, in a >> >> recent post is wrong. Both are equally disastrous from the >> >> environmental point of view. And the silence of political formations >> >> (of all persuasions) on the environmental impact of the revived >> >> Mughal Road and their recent discovery of environmentalism (in the >> >> case of the Amarnath land transfer issue) does make their commitment >> >> to environmentalism somewhat suspect. The PDP's stance is >> >> particularly hypocritical, as the original decision has been ratified >> >> by its own minister, (for Forest) in the (Indian Held) J&K state >> >> government. Still, even if the commitment of all the protagonists is >> >> suspect, I must say that I have rarely seen a popular movement >> >> reverse a state-driven decision on an 'environmental' issue, and the >> >> recent success of the agitation in Kashmir (whatever be the motives >> >> that impelled it) which has resulted in a reversal of the Land >> >> Transfer issue is something to be grateful for. >> >> >> These are issues that need to be seen quite separately from secterian >> >> concerns. I hope this debate can help us see them in that way. >> >> >> best >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> ------------------- >> >> >> 1. Sabarimala: The Faith in Spate >> >> by K A Shaji >> >> >> http://www.boloji.com/society/115.htm >> >> >> Legend has it that when Lord Ayyappa set out to seek solitude, he >> >> settled upon Sabarimala. Its sylvan surroundings and undulating >> >> terrain had made it an ideal retreat for the bachelor god. The >> >> pristine monsoon forests had wrapped like an ornament around his >> >> hermitage at the top of the hill. The Lord believed to have called >> >> the area with tranquil atmosphere as his poonkavanam (sacred forest). >> >> >> A shrine inside the forest and a deity who chose the calm ambience of >> >> hills and valleys has few parallels in the country and outside. But >> >> now, it seems, all of the glories of Sabarimala were a thing of the >> >> past. When mythology meets present-day reality, Sabarimala is no more >> >> a chosen abode of the hermit God. During January-February each year, >> >> more than 50 million devotees, as claimed by the temple authorities, >> >> are thronging this forest temple for annual pilgrimage, putting the >> >> fragile ecology of the region under severe stress. Now, the holy hill >> >> is a synonym of increasing inflow of pilgrims, inadequate >> >> infrastructure, a devastated environment and a hapless wildlife. >> >> >> While the entire hill and the adjacent river Pampa, the third largest >> >> river in Kerala, are stinking due to sewage pollution and >> >> accumulation of garbage, the situation is not much different in the >> >> administrative and spiritual circles of the hill shrine. First, it >> >> was a controversy involving Kannada film actress Jayamala and a group >> >> of orthodox Hindus, who questioned her claim of touching the idol of >> >> the bachelor god defying the barricades meant for preventing sexually >> >> active women from entering the hill shrine. Then one of the highly >> >> revered traditional priests of the temple was robbed of a large >> >> amount of money and gold ornaments during his visit to the house of a >> >> woman engaged in flesh trade by a mafia gang. And now, it is the turn >> >> of aged father of a senior priest to allege that his son is under >> >> influence of a powerful Ezhava community leader with shadowy nature >> >> and the leader's followers are using his son to pocket the temple >> >> money. In the meantime, the Left Front Government has disbanded the >> >> existing administrative body of the temple citing corruption at high >> >> level and is preparing to enact a legislation to keep the corrupt >> >> community leaders out of the administrative body forever. >> >> >> On monetary grounds, the temple is the third largest in the country, >> >> standing very close to Tirupathi and Guruvayur. The cash-strapped >> >> Kerala Government, despite its leftist moorings, is depending very >> >> much on the income from the temple to meet salary needs of its >> >> employees. In order to increase the revenue, the successive >> >> governments and the so-called proponents of development are >> >> vociferous of implementing multi-crore construction plans in >> >> Sabarimala clearing forests and building a concrete jungle in its >> >> place. But nobody in the spiritual and administrative levels of the >> >> temple as well as the government establishment are apprehensive of >> >> the increasing level of pollution and the extreme level of >> >> deforestation. Their focus is entangled only in the growing number of >> >> controversies and the commissions to be available after the beginning >> >> of the construction work. >> >> >> Located about 467 metres above sea level, the Sabarimala temple is >> >> surrounded by 18 hills and situated inside Periyar Tiger Reserve, one >> >> of the few safe havens for tigers in the country. According to bird >> >> watcher B.Sethumadhavan, as many as 2000 species of flowering plants, >> >> endemic and medicinal, have been identified among the region's flora. >> >> `` About 63 species of mammals, some of them endangered like tigers, >> >> elephants and lion tailed macaque live here. So far, 223 species of >> >> birds and 45 species of reptiles including King Cobra have been >> >> identified in this area,'' he said. The ever- expanding number of >> >> pilgrims and mindless construction works are posing severe threat to >> >> their very survival. Devotees of a Lord, who believed to have loved >> >> the flora and fauna and their safekeeping, are now on a rampage in >> >> the name of development forcing the wildlife to move out of their >> >> traditional habitat. >> >> >> As per legends, the vehicle of Lord Ayyappa is tiger. But, >> >> astonishingly, neither the tiger nor the surrounding evergreen >> >> forests do not come in the list of priorities before the |Travancore >> >> Devaswam Board, which administers the shrine. ``There was an increase >> >> of 35 per cent in revenue while comparing with last year during the >> >> November-December period. In the number of visitors, the increase is >> >> of 19 per cent. These figures show the need for immediate >> >> developmental works in Sabarimala. But there are agencies like Forest >> >> Department which cry for tigers and forests,'' alleges G.Raman Nair, >> >> outgoing president of the board. >> >> >> However, environmentalists and forest officials are countering the >> >> allegation. ``The development works so far at Pampa have made it >> >> impossible a soul-filling holy dip in river Pampa. At least, two >> >> scientific studies conducted by Government's own agencies had found >> >> that landslips and tremors would take place at the holy hillock any >> >> time largely because of the extensive concrete flooring at the temple >> >> premises. The devaswam is only interested in money making. It has no >> >> concern for the impending dangers for both nature and devotees,'' >> >> pointed out Sumesh Mangalassery, a member of the environmental group >> >> Kabani. >> >> >> According to Sumesh, a panel of Kerala Legislature on environment led >> >> by RSP leader A V Thamarakshan had submitted 32 proposals to the >> >> Devaswam Board to protect Sabarimala around five years back. But none >> >> of them were acceptable to the board. Even the suggestions of Kerala >> >> State Pollution Control Board to minimise the pollution of river >> >> Pampa were paid scant regard by the board. A visit by Tehelka to >> >> Sabarimala found that river Pampa continues to remain the main victim >> >> of the callous attitude of the authorities. It gets choked in the >> >> temple area as solid waste including human excreta; plastic bags, >> >> empty water bottles and coconut husks block the free flow of water. >> >> About 35 million people took a holy dip in the river between November >> >> and January, which is the major source of drinking water for three >> >> districts. >> >> >> According to a study by the pollution control board, the total >> >> coliform count recorded at the river portion close to Sabarimala is >> >> about 1,14,000 per 100 millilitres (ML) during the peak of >> >> pilgrimage. Just before the pilgrimage season, it is merely 380 per >> >> 100 ml- well below the permissible limits of 500 per 100 ml. >> >> According to local people, the overflow of human faeces from sceptic >> >> tanks around the temple stands the major reason of the pollution of >> >> the river. ``More than 3,000 temporary toilets are functioning close >> >> to the temple in addition to about 600 permanent toilets. The >> >> capacity of the sewerage treatment plant is very limited,'' pointed >> >> out K.Anirudhan of Sabarimala Samrakshana Samithy. >> >> >> Most of the experts, who had conducted studies on the pollution and >> >> environmental problems prevailing in Sabarimala, point to the need of >> >> regulating the ever- increasing number of pilgrims. ``Sabarimala is >> >> bursting at the seams with millions of devotees now. Thirty or forty >> >> years ago, only around 50,000 pilgrims visited the temple. Today, the >> >> number is fifty million and is rising at the rate of 20 per cent >> >> every year. The ever-swelling flow resulted in a major mishap on >> >> January 14, 1999, when 100 pilgrims died in a stampede at the site. >> >> Indications are that Sabarimala is a disaster waiting to be happen,'' >> >> warns noted Kerala based environmentalist P K Uthaman. According to >> >> him, almost two thousand tonnes of human waste are deposited in crude >> >> earth pits and outside in Sabarimala every year. These wastes are >> >> finding their way into not only the river Pampa but also to river >> >> Periyar by underground as well as over ground rivulets, posing a >> >> threat great health hazard for the pilgrims as well as those living >> >> downstream. >> >> >> In addition, the lack of post pilgrimage cleaning drives often result >> >> in unabated flow of hazardous waste into the rivers. The temple area >> >> has already been converted into a concrete jungle where guesthouses >> >> and other structures are constructed haphazardly all around. They are >> >> meant for temple officials, priests, VVIPs and police personnel. >> >> According to M.Gopal, a pilgrim from Bangalore who visited Sabarimala >> >> this year, human excreta and plastic waste were found strewn just >> >> outside the Sannidhanam (the main building of the temple). As per >> >> data available from forest department, over 2.5 lakh empty plastic >> >> bottles of packaged water were collected from inside the tiger >> >> reserve. The number of tetra packs collected would come around 4.5 >> >> lakh. The temple complex of the hermit, who believed in renunciation >> >> of earthly attractions, is now filled with commercial shops selling >> >> products ranging from gold ornaments to dress materials. All these >> >> shops were constructed by clearing forests. >> >> >> ``The total time available for darsan as of now is a total of 1431 >> >> hours, i.e. 515160 seconds. If a darsan goes on one at a time basis >> >> and a devotee gets a second, the total strength of the pilgrims can >> >> only be 5,15, 160 per year. If ten people could somehow cluster >> >> together per second for darsan, the maximum number would be >> >> 51,51,600,'' points out a document prepared by |School of Social >> >> Sciences at Mahatma Gandhi University on behalf of Kerla Forest >> >> Department. The document also questions the claims of the board that >> >> over 50 million people visit the temple annually. But anyway, the >> >> number of pilgrims' visting Sabarimala is many times more than its >> >> capacity. >> >> >> ``The authorities must find out some mechanism to regulate the >> >> alarming increase in the number of pilgrims. Sabarimala is not only >> >> an environmental but also a social disaster,'' opined Dr.Rajan >> >> Gurukkal of School of Social Sciences. Now a day, the uncontrolled >> >> flow of pilgrims from various entry points is resulting in people >> >> swarming all around the protected sanctuary leading to man –animal >> >> conflicts. Recently, an elephant trampled upon one pilgrim. Then it >> >> was found that the pilgrims were sleeping in the corridor used by the >> >> elephants for going to the river to drink water at the night. A large >> >> number of such corridors were already disrupted due to the >> >> construction works undertaken in the recent past. >> >> >> According to Sedumadhavan, the authorities are even paying scant >> >> attention on the safety of pilgrims. As many as 12,000 litres of >> >> diesel are being stored just above the sannidhanam without any >> >> storage licence or safety parameters. They are also keeping a large >> >> number of crackers near the sanctum sanctoram without any safety >> >> concern. The only solution on the part of Trvancore Devaswom Board >> >> for all problems plaguing Sabarimala is denudation of nearby forests >> >> and setting up new amenities. According to Rajan Gurukkal, such an >> >> attempt would be disastrous as all the existing problems of >> >> Sabarimala can be viwed as the after effect of deforestation. >> >> >> The devaswam board has already ruined about 55.09 ha of forestland in >> >> the name of sabarimala development. In the opinion of >> >> environmentalists, they demand more forests to cut and smuggle out >> >> precious trees and construction of further concrete strctures with >> >> ulterior motives. Maintaining the sanctity of the shrine and the >> >> precious eco-system never appeared a priority before them. So far, >> >> the devaswam board was constituted once in five years by nomination >> >> of people with no administrative acumen at the behest of successive >> >> governments. >> >> >> Rajan Gurukkal and his team at School of Social Sciences have >> >> prepared a long-term action plan for saving Sabarimala from the >> >> sequence of disasters in the offing. But the lobbies of corrupt and >> >> communal elements are not allowing the devaswam to look into them. >> >> Even the small step of Left Government in disbanding the existing >> >> devaswam committee is being interpreted as an attempt by atheists to >> >> interfere in Hindu religious matters. The move by left government to >> >> appoint experts in place of politicians at the board also facing >> >> opposition from Sangh Parivar organisations, who claim as custodians >> >> of Hindu places of worship. >> >> >> The board and its corrupt administrators were not able to get their >> >> hand on the forest so far due to stringent central acts and Supreme >> >> Court rulings. But even the outgoing members are repeating their old >> >> slogan of `no development in Sabarimala would be possible without >> >> deforestation.' Unless the authorities change their attitude from a >> >> revenue-centred approach to a pilgrim centred aprach, there is not >> >> much hope. But they still repeat that development (read >> >> deforestation) could not be stopped for the sake of a few birds and >> >> animals. ``The board had neither faith in environmental protection >> >> nor in religious sanctity,'' opines Rajan Gurukkal. >> >> >> Decongestion of base town Pampa by increasing facilities at a >> >> relatively distant town of Nilakkal, demolition of unauthorised >> >> concrete structures at Sannidhanam and Pampa, cleaning of the river, >> >> better waste disposal facilities and provisions of basic facilities >> >> for pilgrims without affecting ecology are the urgent needs of >> >> Sabarimala. The tigers and elephants must be protected. >> >> >> If there is no mechanism to check the number of pilgrims, that would >> >> increase to two to three crores within years. Moderate elements among >> >> the Hindu community are favouring a statutory body for Sabarimala in >> >> line with Tirumala-Thirupathy Devasthanam and Amarnath temple. Such a >> >> body consisting of experts from different fields can change the >> >> course of priorities of the forest temple. >> >> >> >> ----------- >> >> >> 2. Amarnath Yatra: The Pilgrimage to Eco Disaster >> >> Gautam Navlakha >> >> http://www.kashmiraffairs.org/gautam_amarnath%20yatra.html >> >> >> Should one question the propriety of promoting pilgrimage in a >> >> ecologically fragile area or wink at it in the name of devotees right >> >> to free movement and worship? This question comes to mind when >> >> looking at Amarnath Yatra especially the phenomenal increase in the >> >> number of pilgrims. This increase is not of few hundred or few >> >> thousand but runs into hundreds of thousands. There has been a >> >> doubling of the period for pilgrimage from one month to two this year >> >> as well as forty times increase in number of pilgrims, from 12,000 in >> >> 1989 to 450,000 in 2005 (this year it is set to cross 500,000) are >> >> cause for concern. In fact the actual period is longer because a >> >> fortnight before the official yatra is reserved for army men and >> >> their families to visit the Amarnath cave through ecologically more >> >> vulnerable Baltal route. Moreover, in order to provide security for >> >> pilgrims who come out in large number, the paramilitary forces have >> >> to be deployed in large number. The current deployment will be in >> >> excess of 20,000 for the entire period. Their presence and stay >> >> cannot but affect the rise in pollution levels. Inclement weather too >> >> is an issue because rains in the plain means snow in the higher >> >> reaches. This results in crowding at the camps, straining services >> >> including disposal of waste. But worse things can happen as in 1996 >> >> when unexpected heavy snowfall resulted in death of 243 pilgrims and >> >> injuries to hundred more due to avalanche. >> >> >> The State Pollution Control Board (SPCB), recently in a 37 page >> >> report warns that generation of waste by pilgrims, absence of waste >> >> disposal sites, open dumping of garbage, air pollution, sewage >> >> generated by hotels, yatri camps and local residential areas makes >> >> its way into Lidder river. The SPCB warned that waste generated by >> >> pilgrims more than the local average and primarily contains plastics, >> >> polythene and leftover food packets all along the route. According to >> >> their calculation 55,000 kgs of plastic waste is generated every day >> >> during the pilgrimage. Besides, thousands of open toilets erected >> >> along the banks of Lidder river ensures that effluents enter the >> >> river. Thousands of vehicles ply up and down the mountains around >> >> Pahalgam all the way up to Chandanwari spewing carbon monoxide. The >> >> Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB), which came into existence on >> >> February 21, 2001, has been dismissive of such claims. They assert >> >> that 230 pre-fabricated toilets being raised in Nunwan base camp and >> >> human waste disposal off in leach pits with micro-organism technology >> >> using Bokaslin powder and other chemicals would take care of the >> >> problem. However, the issue is more than the supposedly effective >> >> modern methods to manage waste. The sheer presence of large mass of >> >> people is a cause for concern. Department of Science and technology >> >> through its principal investigator on glaciology has argued that "the >> >> ecology, the environment and health of the glacier can be under >> >> severe threat in case the Baltal route to the Holy Cave was >> >> frequented by thousands of pilgrims". And pointed out that "depletion >> >> and degradation (of glaciers) are the result of human breath, refuse >> >> and land erosion". (The Tribune July 5, 2005). >> >> >> It is disconcerting to note that opening of Baltal route for pilgrims >> >> on foot and those using helicopters has crossed several thousand >> >> every day. Apart from the Department of Science and Technology of J&K >> >> government even the Nitish Sengupta committee, which was constituted >> >> to look into the deaths of 243 pilgrims in 1996 due to the snowstorm, >> >> had recommended that number of yatris be restricted to 5000 per day >> >> for a period of one month and the total number of pilgrims be capped >> >> at1.5 lakhs. According to them Baltal route should allow 1500 >> >> pilgrims and Pahalgam 3500 per day. However, the General JR Mukherjee >> >> committee, which looked into the cause of death of 35 people, due to >> >> cross fire, during the 2000 yatra, focussed on security arrangement >> >> and wanted the duration of the yatra to increase as security scenario >> >> improved. But neither report looked at the environmental impact of >> >> the yatra. Thus when the SASB invokes the recommendations of the two >> >> committees what it does is to use it selectively and link the number >> >> of pilgrims to the issue of managing security for them. In this sense >> >> they underplay the question whether the eco-system can bear heavy >> >> influx of pilgrims. This emphasis on encouraging larger number of >> >> pilgrims shows its impact on the environment in unexpected ways. Such >> >> as the SASB contemplating "air conditioning" to preserve the shiva >> >> lingam from melting. The recent controversy over the pilgrims >> >> alleging that the SASB has been constructing the "snow lingam" is now >> >> being passed off as due to change in the course of the water channels >> >> after last year's earthquake and global warming. Without ruling this >> >> out human contribution to this phenomenon cannot be ignored when >> >> glaciers are rapidly receding. As a matter of fact yatra was never >> >> undertaken in June precisely because formation of shiva lingam does >> >> not always take place then. Incidentally the local people speak of >> >> "human" intervention in restoring what is a natural phenomenon, as >> >> something that has happened in the past too. This apart large number >> >> of pilgrims means that going gets tough as one draws close to the >> >> cave with traffic jam being the order of the day. At times pilgrims >> >> have to wait for hours for their turn. Increase in dust in atmosphere >> >> too is caused by crowds of people as well as helicopter service. The >> >> dust raised is visible from long distance away. All this also means >> >> that individual pilgrims, that is other than VIPs, are disallowed >> >> from spending more than seconds inside the cave. Above all carbon >> >> dioxide levels shoot up warming the area all around. >> >> >> It cannot be that the SASB is unaware of the environmental concerns. >> >> If it receives short shrift it is because the yatra has come to >> >> symbolise Indian government's determination to promote its claim in >> >> J&K. That pilgrimage is being heralded as victory against a movement >> >> demanding azadi from India is available in the news portal of Indian >> >> government, Press Information Bureau. It says that "yearning for >> >> moksha (salvation) can move the devotees to the challenging heights >> >> of Kashmir and will be a fitting gesture of solidarity with our >> >> valiant soldiers who have been fighting the enemy to defend our >> >> borders". (pib.nic.in/feature/feo799/f1507992.html). Thus what is >> >> otherwise merely a religious pilgrimage of the Hindus has been >> >> elevated to represent a patriotic enterprise. Besides, the SASB is >> >> headed by the Governor and his principal secretary is the CEO of the >> >> SASB. Thus the Government of India is clearly in charge of organising >> >> the yatra. And it is the SASB which has been pushing for larger and >> >> larger numbers of pilgrims and challenging the right of the state >> >> government from interfering in anyway with the schedule announced by >> >> the SASB. >> >> >> It is true that not everyone who goes to Amarnath accepts this >> >> association of religion with patriotism. But the fact of the matter >> >> is that official perception of pilgrimage as patriotic duty has >> >> allowed the communal fascist elements to join in organising their >> >> supporters. Little wonder that frequency of conflict between section >> >> of such 'pilgrims' and local population due to their obnoxious >> >> behaviour has shown an increase. What is equally disconcerting is >> >> that the SASB presided over by the Governor has also been engaged in >> >> controversial transactions. The CEO of SASB is the principal >> >> secretary to the Governor. Present CEO's wife, in her capacity of >> >> Principal secretary forest department granted permission to SASB on >> >> May 29, 2005 to use forest land. But this provision was not in >> >> accordance with the provision of J&K Forest Conservation Act 1997 >> >> and, therefore, the state government withdrew the order. However, >> >> thanks to a stay order by a division bench of the J&K High Court the >> >> withdrawal of permission to occupy forest land, was suspended. Any >> >> visitor to Pahalgam can observe how this forest land is being cleared >> >> to setup camps for the yatris. In fact now the SASB has asked the >> >> state government to give them land in the radius of 5kms of the cave. >> >> This arouses local passions precisely because Indian security forces >> >> and other entities have transferred large tracts of land to house >> >> camps for security force personnel, or for central projects, as well >> >> as for schools which are run by army among others. Even a pro-Indian >> >> National Conference party has protested such transfers of land since >> >> 1989. Not very far from the camp for the pilgrims in Pahalgam, in >> >> Lidru (opposite Kulan village) what locals describe as one of the >> >> finest meadows, spread over 550 kanals (one kanal=one eighth of acre) >> >> in area, has been given to the army to run a school! Local population >> >> feels helpless at being unable to stop this. Therefore, when SASB >> >> wants large tract of land transferred to it under the claim of >> >> providing accommodation for lakhs of pilgrims it must be weighed >> >> against this local concern. Were the numbers of pilgrims to be >> >> brought down the pressing need for transferring large areas to SASB >> >> or for providing carpet security and thus deployment of force, can be >> >> brought down. >> >> >> This apart the SASB has also been involved in other controversial >> >> acts. One such was the recent attempt by the SASB to bring down the >> >> involvement of local people in the yatra. When on June 5, 2006 the >> >> local pro-India Peoples' Democratic Party (PDP) claimed that SASB was >> >> ignoring livelihood of locals, the SASB countered by claiming that >> >> such criticism would generate controversy and thus "jeopardise" >> >> tourism in Kashmir. Quite apart from the fact that promotion of >> >> pilgrimage for commerce flies in the face of proclaimed concern for >> >> people's faith PDP pointed out that if local porters and ponywallahs >> >> can strike work at Vaishnodevi Shrine against the (mis)management of >> >> the Shri Vaishnodevi Shrine Board (SVDSB) and seek support from local >> >> Congress leaders then what is wrong if local people from Pahalgam and >> >> Kangan areas seek their help to protest against the practises of SASB >> >> which discriminate against them. In fact the Pithoo Workers Union at >> >> Katra have protested the suspension of six of their leaders, alleged >> >> manhandling by SVDSB officials and demanded recall of its additional >> >> CEO. Neither the Governor as head of SVDSB nor the Board issued any >> >> statement chastising the Congress party! >> >> >> Arguably, when yatra was halted between 1991-96 due to threat of >> >> section of the militants it played into the hands of the extreme >> >> right wing elements in Indian society who have since then become an >> >> integral part of mobilising large numbers of pilgrims. Thus a form of >> >> competitive communalism came into play. Thus when section of the >> >> militants represented earlier by Harkatul Ansar and now Lashkar-e- >> >> Taiyyaba or Jaish-e-Mohammed threaten to disrupt the pilgrimage it >> >> only gets the backs up of the devout Hindus opens them to vitriol of >> >> the rabidly anti-Muslim Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), Shiv Sena etc. >> >> and accentuates the communal divide. However, it is equally important >> >> to note the actual fact that more people have died in yatra due to >> >> inclement weather and cross fire than at the hands of the militants. >> >> Besides, the main indigenous militant organisation Hizbul Mujahideen >> >> has always supported the yatra and has consistently demonstrated its >> >> opposition towards those who have tried to disrupt the yatra. >> >> Moreover, prior to constituting SASB the state government, local >> >> people and social activists provided aid and assistance to the >> >> pilgrims. However, threat of environmental damage has become a matter >> >> of utmost concern because the central government under the cover of >> >> SASB remains unrelenting in its pursuit of ever larger numbers to >> >> come for pilgrimage. >> >> >> In a way the Amarnath yatra illustrates the way in which the Indian >> >> government injects communalism in our body politic. And also >> >> represents how secularism in India has been perverted to mean state >> >> patronage of religion/s. This patronage is not equitably distributed >> >> since Hindus outnumber others by more than eight times. Which is to >> >> say that between un-equals equality ends up promoting Hindu religious >> >> practises. In Amarnath yatra, in fact, the India government even >> >> discarded its pretended neutrality by publicising the yatra as a >> >> patriotic duty! Consequently, the likelihood of Amarnath pilgrimage >> >> getting mired in controversy, over environmental damage and >> >> eventually feeding into further alienation of people because they can >> >> do little to save damage to their lived environment, has increased. >> >> Trouble is the Indian government cares little for people and prefers >> >> to pander to the extreme rightwing by projecting the yatra as a >> >> patriotic enterprise to boost the morale of the Indian paramilitary >> >> forces. The very same force which the local population regards as >> >> symbol of their oppression. Thus a bigger mess is in the making right >> >> before our own eyes. >> >> --------------- >> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> >> Raqs Media Collective >> >> shuddha at sarai.net >> >> www.sarai.net >> >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> ... >> >> [Message clipped] > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > From shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 12:18:19 2008 From: shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com (Shambhu Rahmat) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:48:19 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Bangladesh, In the Graveyard of Hope Message-ID: "If the pond of politics is overrun with weeds, you cannot clean it with bamboo sticks, the entire pond has to be uprooted. Only the people can do that. It's the people of East Bengal that wiped out the last trace and name of Muslim League. It's the people of Bangladesh that forced out the Pakistani occupation forces. In Kansat, Shonir Akhra, Fulbari, the people rose up again and again. That was the muscle power of democracy. And this government, this is the muscle power of the ruling elite. The two not bring the same results." "There can be no ordering the river to flow from the heights of the Qutub Minar of power. Stuck between the scylla and charybdis, we also see a glimmer of hope. Will a bridge be built between the masses and government power, can state power finally pass out of the hands of the elite into the people? On that rests the future of hope and fear. So we wait and wait. We wait as the hyphen between past and future. But no nation, no people, can spend decades suspended, waiting as hypens. We want to wipe away our poisoned inheritance and start a new day, but we cannot also erase our proud history." http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2008/07/01/graveyard-of-hope/ In the Graveyard of Hope by Faruq Wasif [Prothom Alo, June 28, 2008] [Translated for Drishtipat by Shabnam Nadiya] Bangladesh is the name of hope's graveyard. Bangladesh is another name for waiting. Here, everything almost arrives, but nothing actually, finally comes. But even within the darkness, the possibility of the arrival shines like the morning star. Even though in exchange for our nose, a blade we received, we still hope that some day our noses will heal. We are waiting, hope, sister to waiting, will one day return. The train of history will stop at our platform. We wait. This is our life's force in this unspeakable reality. We water the grave of hope and bring forth the grass of sorrow. Waiting, brother of hope, keeps us awake. We traverse decades. We come through death, war, pestilence and famine. A new decade arrives, and we spy hope in the dregs of frustration and are moved. Hope arose in 1990, after the fall of the despot. Hope arose in 2000, at the arrival of the new millennium. We were almost becoming self-sufficient in food production, xx was rising, our confidence was growing as the young men and women labouring here and abroad were earning dollars. But the lines of that poem turn true somehow: I built this house for happiness/It burnt up in fire/I bathe in an ocean of ambrosia/It turned poison. The poem is more than a hundred years old. Today some non-poet would perhaps write, new bottle same wine. So it's with that in hand that we have to sit down today to take measure of our humiliation on a national scale. Transparency International has conducted a survey and provided a record of the corruption during the rule of this government. It states that corruption hasn't decreased in comparison to the past two governments, it has increased. TIB themselves has prepared a comparative picture based on data from the survey of 5,000 households across 62 districts. An examination of the six months prior to and six months after 1/11 shows that ministry-wise corruption levels, meaning education, health, land administration, local government, the NGO sector, corruption and bribery are rampant everywhere. And that too is at higher levels than before. In the education sector, it used to be 12.5 percent, now it's 44.5 percent. In the health sector, 32 percent has grown to 36.9 percent; in land administration 39.4 percent has increased to 45.1 percent and in the NGO sector, 33.3 percent is now 35.7 percent. In addition, 96.6 individuals out of every 100 have been victims of the corruption in the law enforcement agencies. So who's been left out? We hear that the politicians are no longer in power, many of them are immobile, in jail. So who are the phantoms who have been doing all this? It was to curb corruption that so much effort was expended, so many upper floor chumps were sent downstairs, and chumps from lower floors promoted to the upper. In the past the political leaders would call the TIB report a conspiracy, propaganda to tarnish their image. Will the same thing be said this time as well? I don't know. If corruption has decreased even slightly, then is the new TIB survey lying? Those who have nothing else, have experience. Its from that experience that we know, whatever the intent of the survey, the data that has emerged from it are close to the truth. If that is the case, then what was this game of hopscotch that we had been witnessing all this while? We don't know whether in the future, after another 1/11, we will have to read another epic of corruption in an anti-corruption drive. Still, sorrow sulks within our hearts, Why did we build this house! Our train never arrives; our night never dawns. The ringing of sword on shield never ends. If our train does come, it never runs on the right track. Still we wait. Like a condemned man waits with the noose around his neck, so we wait too, for some more breath, light, cherished faces, tastes of the mortal. We who inhabit the footpaths wait, one day we will have a house. Slum-dwelling rickshawpullers in Dhaka and Chittagong nurtures the yearning to one day return to the village and farming. The poor wait, something will happen some day. They will no longer want for rice, their children will laugh. The prostitute waits, even if she can't, her daughter will escape this life of the fallen. When her life is over, she thinks her granddaughter or her great granddaughter will surely find a different life. Then she goes to her grave and waits, when will the gates of heaven open. And she will ask the Creator of this world, did my children find happiness? Those fathers and mothers will wait even beneath the grass and earth of the grave, those that they had left behind, have they found happiness? Perhaps they won't know, but we do, over a million women have been smuggled to brothels in various countries. That's about the number of people who live in a smallish district of this land! Over 400,000 among them are India, and 40 thousand boys are living the lives of sex slaves in Pakistan. Still we wait, they will return, they will be brought back. People cannot do without waiting and hoping. If we didn't have the hope of the times changing, we would move around like the living dead. If there was no wait for the establishment of our golden Bengal and the trial of the war criminals, the Liberation War would become a meaningless. If there was no hope that one day this lawlessness will end, we would turn to stone from sorrow. It is through these eyes of stone that we witness the kings, queens and princes of corruption have either been released or are about to be. Of course we want to see freedom in politics, we want the re-establishment of the political rights of the people. But since when have these corrupt politicians become so similar that we have to witness the freeing of the crrupt in the guise of freeing politics? We see that although corrupt individuals are being placed under pressure, institution corruption is not being addressed. Citizen's participation in administration and rule has not been increased. The people are like puppets in the reform and anti-corruption drives. Are we only supposed to go and vote when we're called upon? We've lost our rights in the regimes of both political and non-political governments. All we've retained is our right to vote. What can be done with that, if the same people stand for election? If the pond of politics is overrun with weeds, you cannot clean it with bamboo sticks, the entire pond has to be uprooted. Only the people can do that. It's the people of East Bengal that wiped out the last trace and name of Muslim League. It's the people of Bangladesh that forced out the Pakistani occupation forces. In Kansat, Shonir Akhra, Fulbari, the people rose up again and again. That was the muscle power of democracy. And this government, this is the muscle power of the ruling elite. The two not bring the same results. A scream for a mass movement burnt deep inside the heart of society. But no response to that came from politics, and so a vacuum was created. The people could find no one any more to reflect their hopes on to. "People Power" hung in space with no heir, no one to claim the mantle. But power is such a thing, it does not, cannot just travel hand to hand without a final address. Since the people could not, the people's representatives would not, take it on, power landed in the laps of today's navigators, and said take me, use me, drive me. The next history every one knows. We needed a flush to get rid of all the waste, they pressed the flush button. But now all the blood, all the spoils, all the pollution is coming back. Is that dirt now going to overflow the toilet and drown us all? No one can deny that corruption is like a sea flowing over Bangladesh. Everyone knows that a sea cannot be cleaned like this. The only way is to allow rivers and streams to keep flowing into the sea until it cleans itself. And those rivers, those streams, are the people. So the only path is to remove the barriers in the way of the people. There is no other solution. There can be no ordering the river to flow from the heights of the Qutub Minar of power. Stuck between the scylla and charybdis, we also see a glimmer of hope. Will a bridge be built between the masses and government power, can state power finally pass out of the hands of the elite into the people? On that rests the future of hope and fear. So we wait and wait. We wait as the hyphen between past and future. But no nation, no people, can spend decades suspended, waiting as hypens. We want to wipe away our poisoned inheritance and start a new day, but we cannot also erase our proud history. The last 37 years have rained so many blows on our feelings, deep calluses have formed. It has become like a hard tortoise shell. Does a hopeful heart still beat under that shell? We fear that if hope is dead, opportunism will be born and will stretch its neck out of its shell like a tortoise. And Bangladesh will be transformed into a grave for hope. In that graveyard will walk a group of tortoise people, who have a strong shell as shields and whose necks are always stretched out in greed. We do not want the dead weight of those tortoise-like opportunists to turn everything to poison forever. From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Jul 1 13:00:11 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:00:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra In-Reply-To: <6353c690806302147w11f8b8d3qd759066cea579609@mail.gmail.com> References: <505458.40322.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <6353c690806302147w11f8b8d3qd759066cea579609@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <18F78A7F-25DC-4E29-8D98-8F028DA602E3@sarai.net> Dear Aditya, Thank you for your response to the ongoing debate on the Amarnath issue on this list. On 01-Jul-08, at 10:17 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > . I don't think Muslims would have > felt the same restrictions and protests in case of their Haj House's, > structures etc. across India in every nook and corner. > If there is any haj house anywhere in India that has been built by the arbitrary occupation of reserve forest land, it should be torn down. As far as I know, this has not happenned, because Haj Houses are located in dense urban areas. > Then why these protests. Should we also demand that funds > and land to various mosques in Kashmir including Hazaratbal be held > back ? I totally agree with you, the state should get out of the business of funding any subsidies to any religious institution of any religion whatsoever. I have earlier said on this list that the Haj subsidy should be done away with, and every subsidy to every Hindu institution, or pilgrimage, including the Amarnath and Kailash- Mansarovar yatras. Religious institutions, sects, movements are resourceful enough to be able to look after themselves and their adherents. > > > Those who scream at top of their voice about Demographic Changes > are nothing > but taking a bit too far. How much polulation would a 40 hectare land > accomodate anyway ? The biggest demographic change was with the > exodus of > more than 3 and half lakh Kashmiri Hindus from the valley. Sadly, > its a > forgotten tragedy. > I agree with you, in my last post, I have said that the question of 'Demographic Change' is a red herring, and does more damage than good to the movement against land transfer in Kashmir. However, changing the character of 40 acres of land can disturb the ecology of a region. As can any attempt to convert a limited duration seasonal pilgrimage into a year long, or nearly year long affair. It is doubtful whether the fragile ecology of the region can sustain the burden of 'lakhs' of pilgrims throughout the year, or even for a very long time each year. The plan for the erection of permanent structures on those 40 acres opens out the possibility of a much longer pilgrimage period, with many more pilgrims than the ecosystem of the area can sustain. An objection to this fact is not an objection to the myth of 'demographic change'. I find your coinage of the term polulation interesting. Is it a compound of population and pollution ? > As my great-grandfather was the first Ornithologist of Asia, I've > some if > not all information on Environment, its protection and also tilted > government policies in relation to Kashmir especially. Major > ecological > imbalance occur when locals push tons of waste material and toxic > substances > into the lakes like the Dal. Many know what it has resulted it now. > Also, > the land mafia in Kashmir (Mufti being strong part of it) is > another major > force. They cut thousands of trees to clear land and sell illegally > or maybe > legally through corrupt administration and revenue officers. > Again, I agree with you, the actions of the land mafia in Kashmir (which have occurred throughout the last sixty odd years, and before) are responsible for the present crisis in the ecology of the Kashmir valley. Perhaps the biggest land mafia of all were the rulers and courtiers of the erstwhile Dogra state of Jammu and Kashmir, and of course the big landowners, (some of whose burden on the land was relieved when the land reforms occurred in the 1950s). best Shuddha > > > > On 7/1/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> >> Dear Rahul, >> >> Why is it naiive to believe that tens of thousands of protestors >> would take to the streets for environmental reasons? Are you trying >> to say that tens of thousands of protestors do not turn up on the >> streets for environmental reasons? As far as I know, tens of >> thousands of protestors routinely protested in the Narmada Valley for >> environmental reasons, on several occasions, across several years. >> Why should Kashmir be different? >> >> Having said that, I would like to underscore that I am not for a >> moment making a categorical statement, either way, about the >> sincerity of the sudden display of 'ecological consciousness' by >> elements within the Kashmiri separatist constiuency, or within any >> other segment in the Kashmiri political spectrum today. I have no way >> of gauging the sincerity of these entities when it comes to >> environmental issues. No one has any means of gauging their >> insincerity either. I am, in fact, not interested in sitting on >> judgement on whether the protestors are 'sincere' or not. I can see >> why there should be protests. And if there are protests, I think they >> ought not be dismissed on the basis of speculations about the >> purported 'sincerity' of the protestors. >> >> Furthermore, there is nothing that demonstrates to me that a >> sentiment against a change in the demographic profile of a region is >> identical to a sentiment against Hindu pilgrims. No one has said >> anything either implcitly, or explicitly about pilgrims. I will come >> to my take on the question of 'demographic shifts' later. >> >> Pilgrims are transients. They do not settle and change the >> demographic profile of a place. The protests are against the transfer >> of land. The transfer of land can legitimately raise the suspicion >> that permanent structures will be build on that land, (why else argue >> for a change in the status of the owner of the land). It is clear >> that the permanence of these structures does not have any relation to >> the duration or necessities of the traditional 'Pilgrimage Season' in >> Amarnath. It may be remembered, that even at the height of the >> Kashmir insurgency, when some groups had sought to attack the >> Amarnath pilgrims, the Hizbul Mujahideen, the largest and most >> significant armed Kashmiri secessionist outfit, issued statements >> against any attempts to attack Amarnath pilgrims. >> >> The Action Committee Against Land Transfer, the organization co >> ordinating the Anti land Transfer movement in Kashmir has >> categorically stated that it has nothing against pilgrims or the >> pilgrimage to Amarnath. >> >> None of this amounts, in my book, to an adequate amount of >> circumstantial evidence for 'sentiments' against pilgrims. Would it >> not be better if we saw the reality of this anger against the pattern >> of the forcible acquisition of land by state agencies in Kashmir. >> >> Let me conclude by saying that I do not think that anything done on >> 38.99 acres of land can amount to a demographic shift. And those who >> (in Kashmir) , even within the Action Committee Against Land Transfer >> are talking about a 'demographic shift' with reference to the >> Amarnath issue are pursuing a red herring. There is a real issue of >> the forcible acquisition of land by agencies of the state and the >> armed forces in Jammu and Kashmir, that is much wider in terms of its >> ramifications than the single issue of Amarnath alone. >> >> I for one, do not think that the presence of Bangladeshi immigrants >> in say, Assam, needs to be attacked because it represents the threat >> of a demographic shift to some people. There are good reasons why in >> some parts of India (in J&K under article 370 and under the Fifths >> Schedule of the Constitution in certain notified tribal areas in >> different parts of the country) non aborigionals or non-state >> subjects (in the case of J&K) are barred from acquiring landed >> property. These have to do with the histories of disposession and >> land alienation in these areas. But that does not mean that such >> people (non aboriginals and non state subjects) cannot live in these >> areas. To state that would be to confuse lived practices of >> habitation with the ownership of property, and to confuse the >> category of the citizen with the reality of the denizen. >> >> best >> >> Shuddha >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Tue Jul 1 13:13:40 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 12:43:40 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra In-Reply-To: <6353c690806302147w11f8b8d3qd759066cea579609@mail.gmail.com> References: <505458.40322.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <6353c690806302147w11f8b8d3qd759066cea579609@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, one can sure expect the oldest party which ruled nation for fifty years to resort to partial appeasement tactics after is stint of rule in Kasmir with its duck lackey Gulam at the helm. After years of proxy rule in the state and later the rule of modern maharaja Abdulla ruling the state from Golf course, the kashmiris had only bad governance for all the sixty years. Hindus fled the dtate, became refugees in their own nation, but this present system of governance played again in to the hands of fanatic elements of both the religions with the appeasement game. Let it be remembered that a kashmiri can come into any part of India do business ,buy lands and enjoy, but from other parts of India, citizens can only enter Kashmir for tour and pilgrimage, thus never allowing the amalgamation of the kasmir into India, inspite of accession agreement which is 58 years old. Systematically the citizens were keen to send off hindus from the state out of kasmir, but wanted all the benefits from India, are these kashmiris who claim to be good muslims really good ? They are the kafirs in islam, who kill innocents for their power hungry games. Gulam Nabi Azad, in his ploy to gain votes for Congress did the appeasement trick of "giving" land for pilgrim accommodatin and then could not stick to his decision thus now Congress in this appeasement game has lost sight of good governance. As to the yatra itself, it was in early days lasted only for 15 days, later it was extended, but management was by family of maliks with full cooperation from all in Kasmir as it was livelihood from this pilgrims that served them for a year. Similarly, tourism was only income generator for this state, but fanatic violence has made a common man in Kashmir irrespective of his religion a poorer man, politicians of PDP and NC are rich exploiters of forest wealth with their dummies in all contracts and loot of public money, with nw addition of Congress hangers on. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Aditya Raj Kaul Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008 10:17 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra To: sarai list Cc: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > "Nothing is being said against the Pilgrims". Sad to see a few > people here > pushing this point a bit too much; maybe because they are out of > their usual > stock of arguments; because the situation is very clear here. > > The current situation in Kashmir has nothing to do with the so called > environmental laws and ecological imbalance. The situation there > hasn'treached a point yet where 40 hectare's of land for Hindu > Pilgrims would > bring with it mass destruction of trees, greenry and life. In > turn, it would > multiply the revenue generated by local Kashmiri Muslims and to > some extent > the government. > > The current communal protests in the valley come at a time when > electionsare round the corner and Amarnath Yatra is being carried > on with lakhs of > Hindu Pilgrims visiting it from across India. The main point here > is the > questions of Tollerance. Its a sad state. I don't think Muslims > would have > felt the same restrictions and protests in case of their Haj House's, > structures etc. across India in every nook and corner. > > Its a sad state indeed. Communal Politics is being played to > garner votes. > Rather, PDP, CONGRESSS and NC are trying to score each other in > the race for > becoming the most communal outfit. > > The entire hue and cry on Land Transfer and the Shri Amarnath > Shrine Board > is completely tragic and absurd. Isn't the Shrine Board and > Kashmiri Hindus > part of Kashmir ? Then why these protests. Should we also demand > that funds > and land to various mosques in Kashmir including Hazaratbal be > held back ? > > The violence in Kashmir has been sparked by a man called Mufti > Mohd. Sayeed. > A former Congress chamcha, he now has his own Peoples Democratic > Party. He > is famously known because his daughter's kidnapping and thereafter > releasingof terrorists from Indian Jails in her exchange became > the reason for unrest > in Kashmir. Killing thousands. Mufti played a very active role in > it; many > say, he had all information about her daughter's kidnapping. > > This isn;t the first time Mufti's mouth blabbered and violence > erupted on a > non-issue. He with his old time Congress Party friend Arjun Singh were > involved instigating and taking part in Communal Riots in Kashmir; > back in > 1986. In 1989-90, he remained a mute spectator to the exodus of an > entirecommunity from Kashmir. Rather, he became a part of those > anti-national > forces. > > This time around; he cautiously waited for the opportue time to > act and turn > things in his favour.. Rightly so. He had to appease a certain > section as > elections were round the corner. Sadly, he might not get what he > expected.Anyways, lets leave that to time to tell. > > Those who scream at top of their voice about Demographic Changes > are nothing > but taking a bit too far. How much polulation would a 40 hectare land > accomodate anyway ? The biggest demographic change was with the > exodus of > more than 3 and half lakh Kashmiri Hindus from the valley. Sadly, > its a > forgotten tragedy. > > As my great-grandfather was the first Ornithologist of Asia, I've > some if > not all information on Environment, its protection and also tilted > government policies in relation to Kashmir especially. Major > ecologicalimbalance occur when locals push tons of waste material > and toxic substances > into the lakes like the Dal. Many know what it has resulted it > now. Also, > the land mafia in Kashmir (Mufti being strong part of it) is > another major > force. They cut thousands of trees to clear land and sell > illegally or maybe > legally through corrupt administration and revenue officers. > > The massive destruction of the Pir Pangal range three years ago > again by > Mufti Mohd. Sayeed is now a wide known fact. No protests, no cabinet > meetings etc. were seen in Kashmir then. Strangely, this questions the > entire base of the protests today ? > > Its time people who blabber too much to know about Kashmir; for a > changeread history and understand the facts and details about > Kashmir and its > Politics. > > Lets cut the crap about protests in Kashmir about the > environmental reasons > behind Baltal Land Transfer. The locals don't give a damn to it. > Its economy > that runs on tourism through Amarnath Yatra. > > "Naara E-Takbeer - Aalah Hu Akbar" is no environmental slogan > invented by > Greenpeace. Shuddha, maybe you can enligten us on this. > > Its time the impotent Governmnet of India shows a strong force at the > speratist and terroist elements in Kashmir who are sparking > violence and > encouraging and brainwashing locals against Hindus. > > Best Regards > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > On 7/1/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > > > Dear Rahul, > > > > Why is it naiive to believe that tens of thousands of protestors > > would take to the streets for environmental reasons? Are you trying > > to say that tens of thousands of protestors do not turn up on the > > streets for environmental reasons? As far as I know, tens of > > thousands of protestors routinely protested in the Narmada > Valley for > > environmental reasons, on several occasions, across several years. > > Why should Kashmir be different? > > > > Having said that, I would like to underscore that I am not for a > > moment making a categorical statement, either way, about the > > sincerity of the sudden display of 'ecological consciousness' by > > elements within the Kashmiri separatist constiuency, or within any > > other segment in the Kashmiri political spectrum today. I have > no way > > of gauging the sincerity of these entities when it comes to > > environmental issues. No one has any means of gauging their > > insincerity either. I am, in fact, not interested in sitting on > > judgement on whether the protestors are 'sincere' or not. I can see > > why there should be protests. And if there are protests, I think > they> ought not be dismissed on the basis of speculations about the > > purported 'sincerity' of the protestors. > > > > Furthermore, there is nothing that demonstrates to me that a > > sentiment against a change in the demographic profile of a > region is > > identical to a sentiment against Hindu pilgrims. No one has said > > anything either implcitly, or explicitly about pilgrims. I will come > > to my take on the question of 'demographic shifts' later. > > > > Pilgrims are transients. They do not settle and change the > > demographic profile of a place. The protests are against the > transfer> of land. The transfer of land can legitimately raise the > suspicion> that permanent structures will be build on that land, > (why else argue > > for a change in the status of the owner of the land). It is clear > > that the permanence of these structures does not have any > relation to > > the duration or necessities of the traditional 'Pilgrimage > Season' in > > Amarnath. It may be remembered, that even at the height of the > > Kashmir insurgency, when some groups had sought to attack the > > Amarnath pilgrims, the Hizbul Mujahideen, the largest and most > > significant armed Kashmiri secessionist outfit, issued statements > > against any attempts to attack Amarnath pilgrims. > > > > The Action Committee Against Land Transfer, the organization co > > ordinating the Anti land Transfer movement in Kashmir has > > categorically stated that it has nothing against pilgrims or the > > pilgrimage to Amarnath. > > > > None of this amounts, in my book, to an adequate amount of > > circumstantial evidence for 'sentiments' against pilgrims. Would it > > not be better if we saw the reality of this anger against the > pattern> of the forcible acquisition of land by state agencies in > Kashmir.> > > Let me conclude by saying that I do not think that anything done on > > 38.99 acres of land can amount to a demographic shift. And those who > > (in Kashmir) , even within the Action Committee Against Land > Transfer> are talking about a 'demographic shift' with reference > to the > > Amarnath issue are pursuing a red herring. There is a real issue of > > the forcible acquisition of land by agencies of the state and the > > armed forces in Jammu and Kashmir, that is much wider in terms > of its > > ramifications than the single issue of Amarnath alone. > > > > I for one, do not think that the presence of Bangladeshi immigrants > > in say, Assam, needs to be attacked because it represents the threat > > of a demographic shift to some people. There are good reasons > why in > > some parts of India (in J&K under article 370 and under the Fifths > > Schedule of the Constitution in certain notified tribal areas in > > different parts of the country) non aborigionals or non-state > > subjects (in the case of J&K) are barred from acquiring landed > > property. These have to do with the histories of disposession and > > land alienation in these areas. But that does not mean that such > > people (non aboriginals and non state subjects) cannot live in these > > areas. To state that would be to confuse lived practices of > > habitation with the ownership of property, and to confuse the > > category of the citizen with the reality of the denizen. > > > > best > > > > Shuddha > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Tue Jul 1 14:20:18 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 13:50:18 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue In-Reply-To: <98f331e00806301826g1af66e90pacaacf4724a45a50@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00806301826g1af66e90pacaacf4724a45a50@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Fully agrreable thoughts, good governance has no role to play agents of any faith. System of governance should only faciltate the livelihood, education, basic essentials and opportumities in life, skill developmental facilitation of all, irrespective of their faith, caste and region. But the oldest party has always used the vote banks of communities to be in power, be it caste based or faithbased, thus regional satraps took over to defeat the oldest party in its own game of divide and rule. Even left enjoyed creating vote banks of migrant bangladeshis, thus not exempt from "communal" game of creation of vote banks.? Today governance is more in businesses where it should not be in. Left also succumbing to the temptation created hell for itself with kickbacks in Singur and nandigram. Congress which some how managed to sleep with enemy like Mufti, soft face of terror for power, has resorted to partisan appeasements to gain votes in rest of India from the hindu and the rest is now for all to see, after India shining, now it is india burning thanks to mafia rule. ----- Original Message ----- From: prakash ray Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008 6:57 am Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue To: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear All, > > The protests and related debate since the central and state > governmentsreached an agreement to transfer 100 acres of > forestland to the Amarnath > board which organizes the annual Amarnath yatra have taken an ugly and > violent turn. Thankfully, the decision has been revoked. Now the > democraticleaders must work to restore secular atmosphere. It must > be recalled that > the erstwhile monarchy used to grant favors to the religious heads > in order > to get social control and sanction. Such policies, > unfortunately and dangerously, is still being continued by the > politicalleadership. It is time to decide to discontinue the > government policy to > have religious bodies under the state's control and provide them > unethicalpatronage. It is to be noted that the Governor heads the > Hindu shrine boards > and the chief minister heads the Muslim Wakfs. The government must > get out > of this kind of control and must restrict itself to provide the needed > support to public who visit shrines, temples, mosques and other > kinds of > religious places and festivals/fairs. There must be a rethinking > on the tax > benefits extended to the religious bodies earning crores and > crores of > rupees. Such changes in policies should be applied to all over the > country,not only in the J & K. > > I am not proposing to overlook the role of previous Governor or the > misguided Congress leadership or the communal elements, > particularly the > BJP-VHP combine in making things worse. Certain elements, who > mischievouslyclaims to be representatives of the both communities, > always use such > tactics and situation to deepen the divide. I pray to the Almighty > to grant > them goodness. > > > Regards, > > Prakash > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Tue Jul 1 14:23:17 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 13:53:17 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] What Mughal Road didn't that shrine land-transferplans did In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30806300852q59d59371o22cff84a60563cb2@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70806300416p3a82303jba64103cd55edb0b@mail.gmail.com> <"9c0 6aab30806300716i7992a64cv6077d1b35c0c37b3"@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70806300841r51be1ca1q101f6bcad4c906f3@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30806300852q59d59371o22cff84a60563cb2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey, caught pants down, argumentative ? It happens to all humans, apologise more gracefuly. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् Date: Monday, June 30, 2008 9:23 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What Mughal Road didn't that shrine land-transferplans did To: Pawan Durani Cc: sarai list > Dear Pawan, > > I was commenting on the article, I didn't even know your views. > > best > shivam > > On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 9:11 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > Dear Friend Shivam , > > > > I hope you would learn to identify between my views and the > views I have > > posted with proper credit to the source. > > > > The story proves a point that for people of Kashmir , ecology is > a non > > issue ..but providing facilities for hindu pligrim is a pain . > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > On 6/30/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > >> > >> Thanks for posting this, Pawan. I think, as in the Sethusamudram > >> project, the ecological issue is merely a political > smokescreen. It is > >> laughable when politicians suddenly remember ecology when it is > >> politically convenient. So the separatists and the PDP in the > Amarnath>> land case, and the BJP-VHP-RSS in the Sethusamudram > case, do make for > >> strange ecological bedfellows. > >> > >> I think that the least politicians can do in such cases is be > honest>> about their politics, we would be able to appreciate them > better. It > >> does not help me appreciate your point of view when you > suddenly show > >> ecological concern when your only concern is the escalation of the > >> New Delhi strategy to increase India's stake in the Valley. > Even if > >> your supporters and voters don't mind, ecologists would. > >> > >> best > >> shivam > >> > >> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 4:46 PM, Pawan Durani > >> wrote: > >> > *What Mughal Road didn't that shrine land-transfer plans did* > >> > ** > >> > > http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?clid=2&id=210771&usrsess=1>> > > >> > > >> > Kavita Suri > >> > JAMMU, June 29: Three years ago, when the then chief minister > of Jammu > >> and > >> > Kashmir Mufti Mohammed Sayeed decided to revive the centuries- > old Mughal > >> > Road in the region, no one in Kashmir even uttered a single > word on the > >> > massive destruction of environment in Pir Panjal mountain > ranges of the > >> > Himalayas. > >> > > >> > > >> > The revival of the old Mughal Road which was once used by the > great>> Mughals > >> > to travel to Kashmir from Lahore and its subsequent > reconstruction>> ordered > >> > by Mufti Sayeed not only witnessed destruction of over 10,000 > trees and > >> 26 > >> > wild life sanctuaries but also fragmented the habitat of the > >> > highly-endangered wild Markhor goat. India is estimated to > have a total > >> > population of only 300-200 of this species, which is found in > southwest>> > Kashmir's Hirpora, Lachipora and Limber wildlife > sanctuaries falling on > >> > Mughal Road. > >> > > >> > > >> > Surprisingly, all the political parties remained silent over > the issue > >> of > >> > degradation of environment and destruction of the wild life > sanctuaries>> due > >> > to the work on the Mughal Road. > >> > > >> > > >> > But when the Jammu and Kashmir government recently decided to > transfer>> 40 > >> > hectares of forest land at Baltal and Domail for the proposed > camping>> sites > >> > located on the right side of the Sindh River for the purpose of > >> constructing > >> > temporary shelters for the Amarnath pilgrims, the political > parties in > >> > Kashmir have opposed it tooth and nail on the pretext of > environment>> > degradation. > >> > > >> > > >> > The issue had deeply polarised the entire state. Politicians > and other > >> > organisations in Jammu see it as a deliberate move to > suppress Hindu > >> > identity and communalisation in the region. "When 10,000 > trees were cut > >> and > >> > the habitat of the wild Markhor destroyed for the > reconstruction of the > >> > Mughal Road, no one said anything but when SASB wanted to set up > >> temporary > >> > shelters for two months only, there was an uproar," Dr Nirmal > Singh,>> member, > >> > national executive & former state president of the BJP said. > >> > > >> > > >> > The PDP, National Conference and other parties were playing > with fire by > >> > communalising the whole issue of the Amarnath Yatra and > opposing the > >> > decision to transfer 800 kanals of land to SASB for creating > facilities>> for > >> > pilgrims, he added. To prevent environmental destruction due > to the work > >> on > >> > the Mughal Road, a Kashmir-based NGO, Bio-diversity > Conservation Trust > >> had > >> > gone to Supreme Court arguing that construction work would > affect the > >> > region's biodiversity and the movement of wild animals, > especially the > >> > Markhor goat. > >> > > >> > > >> > The Wild Markhor is on IUCN's Red List of highly endangered > wild animals > >> and =3E >> > is also named in Schedule 1 of the Wildlife Protection Act, > 1972, and > >> the > >> > Jammu Kashmir Wildlife Protection Act, 1978 (amended in 2002). > >> > > >> > > >> > But in the case of SASB, the transfer of 800 kanals (40 > hectares) of > >> forest > >> > land was no issue at all. The Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board > had assured > >> the > >> > government that it would take all possible environmental > safeguards in > >> > consultation with the State Pollution Control Board to ensure > that no > >> damage > >> > is caused to the ecology of the area. "The SASB camping sites > did not > >> > involve any area of Thajwas Wild Life Sanctuary, which is > located on the > >> > left side of River Sindh. The Shrine Board had to use > prefabricated>> > structures for the camping purpose of the > pilgrims and would not have > >> gone > >> > for construction of permanent structures," the Jammu and > Kashmir chief > >> > minister Mr. Ghulam Nabi Azad had pointed out. > >> > > >> > > >> > Raising a few pertinent questions, Dr Singh asked as to why > no hue and > >> cry > >> > was raised when the Mufti government transferred over 5,000 > kanals of > >> forest > >> > land to Baba Ghulam Shah Badshah University at Rajouri which also > >> affected > >> > the environment badly. No one uttered a single word then. > >> > > >> > > >> > "Besides, Sharda Peeth university project was scuttled whereas > >> government > >> > gave free land to Baba Ghulam Shah Badshah University project > and also > >> free > >> > land was transferred to Islamic University at Awantipora in South > >> Kashmir," > >> > adds Dr Agnishekhar, president, Panun Kashmir. People in > Jammu believe > >> that > >> > all this points to the complete cleansing of the last > vestiges of Hindu > >> > presence in the valley. > >> > > >> > > >> > "The protagonists of this vicious tirade dub the holy > Amarnath Yatra as > >> a > >> > cultural invasion of Kashmir affecting its ecology, cultural > identity>> and > >> > demography. Whatever ecological damage Kashmir has suffered > is as a > >> result > >> > of illegal felling of trees by land mafia in connivance with > corrupt>> > administration over the years," said Dr Agnishekher > adding the > >> systematic > >> > reclamation of water bodies and continuous flow of waste > materials into > >> > lakes like the famous Dal lake and uncontrolled construction > activity>> has > >> > resulted in much more ecological damage than the Amarnath > pilgrimage.>> > > >> > > >> > "An environmental impact assessment report to the Jammu and > Kashmir>> > Pollution Control Board regarding the Mughal Road > clearly said that it > >> would > >> > cut through 67 hectares of the Hirpora sanctuary disturbing > the habitat > >> of > >> > the Markhor. The cutting of many trees would have a cascading > effect on > >> the > >> > associated biota. Besides, traffic on the road may cause > death of many > >> > animals that utilise verge habitats or try to cross the road. The > >> presence > >> > of motor vehicles may introduce the potential for > contamination of soil, > >> air > >> > and water adjacent to the road and in the case of surface > water, well > >> beyond > >> > the immediate surroundings. Chronic contamination may become > a problem > >> for > >> > animal species, especially those at the top of the food > chain.why there > >> was > >> > no public outcry then," asks Dr Agnishekher. > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > >> > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 15:00:19 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 02:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra In-Reply-To: <18F78A7F-25DC-4E29-8D98-8F028DA602E3@sarai.net> Message-ID: <729220.69725.qm@web57210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Shuddha   By linking the current day happenings with the Dogra Rule (be as it may have been in the context of 'land grants') you have crossed the 1947 Rubicon.   What would stop anyone in going further back in time and bring in the excesses of the preceding ruling dynasties of various other faiths?   You yourself have now taken the debate into 'communal' territory.   Kshmendra Kaul --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra To: "Aditya Raj Kaul" Cc: "sarai list" Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 1:00 PM Dear Aditya, Thank you for your response to the ongoing debate on the Amarnath issue on this list. On 01-Jul-08, at 10:17 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > . I don't think Muslims would have > felt the same restrictions and protests in case of their Haj House's, > structures etc. across India in every nook and corner. > If there is any haj house anywhere in India that has been built by the arbitrary occupation of reserve forest land, it should be torn down. As far as I know, this has not happenned, because Haj Houses are located in dense urban areas. > Then why these protests. Should we also demand that funds > and land to various mosques in Kashmir including Hazaratbal be held > back ? I totally agree with you, the state should get out of the business of funding any subsidies to any religious institution of any religion whatsoever. I have earlier said on this list that the Haj subsidy should be done away with, and every subsidy to every Hindu institution, or pilgrimage, including the Amarnath and Kailash- Mansarovar yatras. Religious institutions, sects, movements are resourceful enough to be able to look after themselves and their adherents. > > > Those who scream at top of their voice about Demographic Changes > are nothing > but taking a bit too far. How much polulation would a 40 hectare land > accomodate anyway ? The biggest demographic change was with the > exodus of > more than 3 and half lakh Kashmiri Hindus from the valley. Sadly, > its a > forgotten tragedy. > I agree with you, in my last post, I have said that the question of 'Demographic Change' is a red herring, and does more damage than good to the movement against land transfer in Kashmir. However, changing the character of 40 acres of land can disturb the ecology of a region. As can any attempt to convert a limited duration seasonal pilgrimage into a year long, or nearly year long affair. It is doubtful whether the fragile ecology of the region can sustain the burden of 'lakhs' of pilgrims throughout the year, or even for a very long time each year. The plan for the erection of permanent structures on those 40 acres opens out the possibility of a much longer pilgrimage period, with many more pilgrims than the ecosystem of the area can sustain. An objection to this fact is not an objection to the myth of 'demographic change'. I find your coinage of the term polulation interesting. Is it a compound of population and pollution ? > As my great-grandfather was the first Ornithologist of Asia, I've > some if > not all information on Environment, its protection and also tilted > government policies in relation to Kashmir especially. Major > ecological > imbalance occur when locals push tons of waste material and toxic > substances > into the lakes like the Dal. Many know what it has resulted it now. > Also, > the land mafia in Kashmir (Mufti being strong part of it) is > another major > force. They cut thousands of trees to clear land and sell illegally > or maybe > legally through corrupt administration and revenue officers. > Again, I agree with you, the actions of the land mafia in Kashmir (which have occurred throughout the last sixty odd years, and before) are responsible for the present crisis in the ecology of the Kashmir valley. Perhaps the biggest land mafia of all were the rulers and courtiers of the erstwhile Dogra state of Jammu and Kashmir, and of course the big landowners, (some of whose burden on the land was relieved when the land reforms occurred in the 1950s). best Shuddha > > > > On 7/1/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> >> Dear Rahul, >> >> Why is it naiive to believe that tens of thousands of protestors >> would take to the streets for environmental reasons? Are you trying >> to say that tens of thousands of protestors do not turn up on the >> streets for environmental reasons? As far as I know, tens of >> thousands of protestors routinely protested in the Narmada Valley for >> environmental reasons, on several occasions, across several years. >> Why should Kashmir be different? >> >> Having said that, I would like to underscore that I am not for a >> moment making a categorical statement, either way, about the >> sincerity of the sudden display of 'ecological consciousness' by >> elements within the Kashmiri separatist constiuency, or within any >> other segment in the Kashmiri political spectrum today. I have no way >> of gauging the sincerity of these entities when it comes to >> environmental issues. No one has any means of gauging their >> insincerity either. I am, in fact, not interested in sitting on >> judgement on whether the protestors are 'sincere' or not. I can see >> why there should be protests. And if there are protests, I think they >> ought not be dismissed on the basis of speculations about the >> purported 'sincerity' of the protestors. >> >> Furthermore, there is nothing that demonstrates to me that a >> sentiment against a change in the demographic profile of a region is >> identical to a sentiment against Hindu pilgrims. No one has said >> anything either implcitly, or explicitly about pilgrims. I will come >> to my take on the question of 'demographic shifts' later. >> >> Pilgrims are transients. They do not settle and change the >> demographic profile of a place. The protests are against the transfer >> of land. The transfer of land can legitimately raise the suspicion >> that permanent structures will be build on that land, (why else argue >> for a change in the status of the owner of the land). It is clear >> that the permanence of these structures does not have any relation to >> the duration or necessities of the traditional 'Pilgrimage Season' in >> Amarnath. It may be remembered, that even at the height of the >> Kashmir insurgency, when some groups had sought to attack the >> Amarnath pilgrims, the Hizbul Mujahideen, the largest and most >> significant armed Kashmiri secessionist outfit, issued statements >> against any attempts to attack Amarnath pilgrims. >> >> The Action Committee Against Land Transfer, the organization co >> ordinating the Anti land Transfer movement in Kashmir has >> categorically stated that it has nothing against pilgrims or the >> pilgrimage to Amarnath. >> >> None of this amounts, in my book, to an adequate amount of >> circumstantial evidence for 'sentiments' against pilgrims. Would it >> not be better if we saw the reality of this anger against the pattern >> of the forcible acquisition of land by state agencies in Kashmir. >> >> Let me conclude by saying that I do not think that anything done on >> 38.99 acres of land can amount to a demographic shift. And those who >> (in Kashmir) , even within the Action Committee Against Land Transfer >> are talking about a 'demographic shift' with reference to the >> Amarnath issue are pursuing a red herring. There is a real issue of >> the forcible acquisition of land by agencies of the state and the >> armed forces in Jammu and Kashmir, that is much wider in terms of its >> ramifications than the single issue of Amarnath alone. >> >> I for one, do not think that the presence of Bangladeshi immigrants >> in say, Assam, needs to be attacked because it represents the threat >> of a demographic shift to some people. There are good reasons why in >> some parts of India (in J&K under article 370 and under the Fifths >> Schedule of the Constitution in certain notified tribal areas in >> different parts of the country) non aborigionals or non-state >> subjects (in the case of J&K) are barred from acquiring landed >> property. These have to do with the histories of disposession and >> land alienation in these areas. But that does not mean that such >> people (non aboriginals and non state subjects) cannot live in these >> areas. To state that would be to confuse lived practices of >> habitation with the ownership of property, and to confuse the >> category of the citizen with the reality of the denizen. >> >> best >> >> Shuddha >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 15:32:21 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 03:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Soniaspeake - "2nd class citizens of Rajouri & Poonch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <155008.31043.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Sonia   Could you please substantiate with some facts/data your statement that the people of Rajouri and Poonch are "2nd class citizens of J&K"   Who are these people? What identifies them? How are they "2nd class citizens"?   You have made a generalised comment about "the people of Rajouri and Poonch". Did you mean to refer to a specific group?   You talk about their "isolation". What kind of isolation?   What is the "second link to the outside world" that you have in mind?   What is that "outside world"? What "world" are they currently confined to?     Kshmendra Kaul --- On Mon, 6/30/08, S. Jabbar wrote: From: S. Jabbar Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What Mughal Road didn ¹ t that shrine land-transfer plans did - Kavita Suri To: "Aditya Raj Kaul" , "sarai list" Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 1:50 PM It's interesting that all this is coming out now. I had no idea about the 10,000 trees cut to make way for the Mughal Rd or the Markhor sanctuary being threatened. Both are reasons enough to rethink the project, even though I feel the people of Rajouri & Poonch need a second link to the outside world to end their isolation that have made them 2nd class citizens of J&K since 1947. The Mughal Road project has been going on for quite sometime now, it's strange that Dr. Singh, Agnishekhar et al did not raise their voices earlier... Or did I miss something? On 6/30/08 1:21 PM, "Aditya Raj Kaul" wrote: > The Truth Behind *What Mughal Road didn't that shrine land-transfer plans > did* ** http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?clid=2&id=210771&usrsess=1 > Kavita Suri JAMMU, June 29: Three years ago, when the then chief minister of > Jammu and Kashmir Mufti Mohammed Sayeed decided to revive the centuries-old > Mughal Road in the region, no one in Kashmir even uttered a single word on > the massive destruction of environment in Pir Panjal mountain ranges of > the Himalayas. The revival of the old Mughal Road which was once used by the > great Mughals to travel to Kashmir from Lahore and its subsequent > reconstruction ordered by Mufti Sayeed not only witnessed destruction of over > 10,000 trees and 26 wild life sanctuaries but also fragmented the habitat of > the highly-endangered wild Markhor goat. India is estimated to have a > total population of only 300-200 of this species, which is found in > southwest Kashmir's Hirpora, Lachipora and Limber wildlife sanctuaries falling > on Mughal Road. Surprisingly, all the political parties remained silent over > the issue of degradation of environment and destruction of the wild life > sanctuaries due to the work on the Mughal Road. But when the Jammu and > Kashmir government recently decided to transfer 40 hectares of forest land at > Baltal and Domail for the proposed camping sites located on the right side of > the Sindh River for the purpose of constructing temporary shelters for the > Amarnath pilgrims, the political parties in Kashmir have opposed it tooth and > nail on the pretext of environment degradation. The issue had deeply > polarised the entire state. Politicians and other organisations in Jammu see > it as a deliberate move to suppress Hindu identity and communalisation in the > region. "When 10,000 trees were cut and the habitat of the wild Markhor > destroyed for the reconstruction of the Mughal Road, no one said anything but > when SASB wanted to set up temporary shelters for two months only, there was > an uproar," Dr Nirmal Singh, member, national executive & former state > president of the BJP said. The PDP, National Conference and other parties > were playing with fire by communalising the whole issue of the Amarnath Yatra > and opposing the decision to transfer 800 kanals of land to SASB for creating > facilities for pilgrims, he added. To prevent environmental destruction due to > the work on the Mughal Road, a Kashmir-based NGO, Bio-diversity Conservation > Trust had gone to Supreme Court arguing that construction work would affect > the region's biodiversity and the movement of wild animals, especially > the Markhor goat. The Wild Markhor is on IUCN's Red List of highly > endangered wild animals and is also named in Schedule 1 of the Wildlife > Protection Act, 1972, and the Jammu Kashmir Wildlife Protection Act, 1978 > (amended in 2002). But in the case of SASB, the transfer of 800 kanals (40 > hectares) of forest land was no issue at all. The Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board > had assured the government that it would take all possible environmental > safeguards in consultation with the State Pollution Control Board to ensure > that no damage is caused to the ecology of the area. "The SASB camping sites > did not involve any area of Thajwas Wild Life Sanctuary, which is located on > the left side of River Sindh. The Shrine Board had to use > prefabricated structures for the camping purpose of the pilgrims and would not > have gone for construction of permanent structures," the Jammu and Kashmir > chief minister Mr. Ghulam Nabi Azad had pointed out. Raising a few pertinent > questions, Dr Singh asked as to why no hue and cry was raised when the Mufti > government transferred over 5,000 kanals of forest land to Baba Ghulam Shah > Badshah University at Rajouri which also affected the environment badly. No > one uttered a single word then. "Besides, Sharda Peeth university project > was scuttled whereas government gave free land to Baba Ghulam Shah Badshah > University project and also free land was transferred to Islamic University at > Awantipora in South Kashmir," adds Dr Agnishekhar, president, Panun Kashmir. > People in Jammu believe that all this points to the complete cleansing of the > last vestiges of Hindu presence in the valley. "The protagonists of this > vicious tirade dub the holy Amarnath Yatra as a cultural invasion of Kashmir > affecting its ecology, cultural identity and demography. Whatever ecological > damage Kashmir has suffered is as a result of illegal felling of trees by land > mafia in connivance with corrupt administration over the years," said Dr > Agnishekher adding the systematic reclamation of water bodies and continuous > flow of waste materials into lakes like the famous Dal lake and uncontrolled > construction activity has resulted in much more ecological damage than the > Amarnath pilgrimage. "An environmental impact assessment report to the Jammu > and Kashmir Pollution Control Board regarding the Mughal Road clearly said > that it would cut through 67 hectares of the Hirpora sanctuary disturbing the > habitat of the Markhor. The cutting of many trees would have a cascading > effect on the associated biota. Besides, traffic on the road may cause death > of many animals that utilise verge habitats or try to cross the road. The > presence of motor vehicles may introduce the potential for contamination of > soil, air and water adjacent to the road and in the case of surface water, > well beyond the immediate surroundings. Chronic contamination may become a > problem for animal species, especially those at the top of the food chain.why > there was no public outcry then," asks Dr > Agnishekher. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 15:39:19 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 15:39:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70807010154y3f9631ebn88b5cb7fe9fd530a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807010309sae4421alda24d5b234e1e832@mail.gmail.com> Sonia , Well officially it was not that only Hindu land was confiscated, But the Govt did ensure that the way it was done would largely effect the Hindus. *Land Reforms* [ Ref : Kashmir Information Network ] The fact remains that the National Conference leadership could not back-track from its commitment to relieving the peasantry from the moribund system of feudalism. Land reforms were a must and a significant component of a wider socio-economic programme of reconstruction and regeneration. In the blue-print of 'New Kashmir', the land reforms were envisaged as a key to freeing the peasantry from the thraldom of feudalism acting as an obstacle in their onward march to freedom from exploitation and abject poverty. Designed to create a support-base in the Muslim peasantry of Kashmir, the National Conference leadership slyly presented the Hindus as the only section possessing enormous landed property, which was many leagues away from truth. In the province of Kashmir, if there were some Hindu landlords, there were equally Muslim landlords who were more ruthless in their treatment of the Muslim tenants, ever tightening their noose on them only to reduce them to abysmal depths of want and deprivation. The Muslim cruelty heaped on the Muslim tenants was never highlighted by the National Conference leaders, who stoutly opposed the Kisan Sabha organised by Late Pandit Prem Nath Bazaz under the leadership of Abdul Salam Yatu.3 Reasons for this might have been political, but the fact remains that the Radical Humanists working under the overall guidance and leadership of Shree Bazaz were the first to focus on the problems confronting the Muslim peasantry of Kashmir. The Muslim leadership of the National Conference aroused hatred against the Kashmirian Hindus, who, as per them, were the oppressors of the Muslims. It never focussed on the extraordinary precedent set by Pandit Jia Lal Tamiri,4 a top freedom fighter known for his proverbial honesty and Pandit Durga Prashad Dhar,5 a central minister, who had given their ancestral lands to their tenants much before land reforms were enacted and implemented in the State. Have the Muslims of Kashmir to offer such a unique example standing comparison to the one set by two bright sons of the Kashmirian Hindu community? The National Conference leaders only to capitalise on the hatred and ill-will that the Muslims of Kashmir harboured against the Kashmirian Hindus made frequent references to Bala Kak Dhar and Shyam Sunder Lal Dhar as oppressors of the Muslims, but they never referred to Ahmad Mir and Musmat Ashraf Begum, 6 two big land-owners of Kashmir, in the same contemptuous and derisive terms highlighting their oppression and cruelty unto the Muslim tenants. It will be pertinent to put that the National Conference as a political organisaton, despite its radical programme, was essentially rooted in medieval thought structure lending sanctity to all hues of Muslims, no matter what their position and status in economic relations were. 'Hail a person, if he is a Muslim and hate a person, if he is a Hindu' has been the watch-word of the National Conference politics. The Government, true to its commitment, appointed a Land Reforms Committee in April, 1948 with the patent mandate of drafting a plan for the abolition of big landed estates and transfer of land to the tiller. The ruling clique representing different political and economic interests got entangled in the ceiling tussle with Mirza Afzal Beg and Ghulam Mohammad Sadiq opting for a lower ceiling and non-payment of compensation for the lands wrested from the land-lords. But, before the Land Reforms Committee, working under various pulls and pressures, would formulate a plan for land reforms and the same would be enacted as law, Sheikh Abdullah from the forum of National Conference divulged the entire scheme resulting in the defeat of the spirit motivating the said reforms.7 The Muslim landlords having come to learn that they had to surrender their landed estates exceeding 182 Kanals fixed as the standard ceiling entered into quick negotiations with their Muslim tenants for sharing the surplus land. In the process, religious ties and sentiments were exploited and the revenue hierarchy abetted the subversion of the entire scheme of land reforms conceived as a radical measure to boost up the lot of the Muslim peasantry in Kashmir. Critics of Sheikh Abdullah attribute it to his deliberate attempt to save the Muslim landlords from the thrust of the reforms. The end-product was that the Hindus of Kashmir especially those holding not much too big tracts of land were deprived of their large chunks of land without compensation. Because of religious differences, the Hindu landlords were at a definite disadvantage. Big Landed Estates Abolition Act, 1952, did not prove of great benefit to the peasants, who were really landless.8 Instead it led to the creation of a new class of Muslim landlords, who as tenants had their own tracts of land, and were allotted large tracts from the surplus land acquired by government from the landlords by virtue of the Act.9 The Act was not scientifically conceived and drafted, as all available models worked out in America and the Soviet Union based on huge proprietory farms and co-operative and collective farms with no private ownership were neither cognised nor thoroughly studied. Even the Brazilian models and the Chinese experiment stressing the stakes of the farmers m the farm-land on a permanent basis were also simply ignored. The National Conference leadership got the reforms implemented through the bureaucratic machine ignoring the suggestion by the radicals that they be implemented by the peasant committees.l0 "What appeared highly irrational was that the ceiling was fixed in relation to an individual, as a unit of cultivation and not a family. This meant allowing to a family as many times the amount of ceiling land as the number of sons in a family and their father. They could possess as many times the portions of exempted land also. It could mean that a family could own a big landed estate,"11 records D. N. Dhar. The fact remains that the loop was not there by mistake but it was not plugged with the deliberate intention of providing an opportunity and escape route to the Muslims to distribute the surplus land among the sons and relations of the family only to save them from the scissors of the Act. The Big Landed Estates Abolition Act did not touch Bedzars, Safedzars, Kahikrisham and orchards and could be possessed beyond any limit. This sly measure of keeping such lands beyond the purview of the Act was resorted to only to safeguard the Muslim interests and was a pointer to the growing political and economic power of the orchardist lobby within the government. Records D. N. Dhar, "What made things worse was that a tiller, after the land reform, had assumed two capacities, one as an owner and the other as a tenant. As owner he could possess the land within the ceiling limit and as tenant, he could hold as much as he wished because no ceiling was fixed for the tiller as tenant.''12 Despite many perceptible flaws and sectarian tilt, the Big Estates Abolition Act did not by and large erode the rural base of the Kashmirian Hindus, who grumbled, yet took it in a stride and their intellectuals characterising it as a necessary measure to rejuvenate the entire economic structure leading to the prosperity of the rural masses. The said Act evoked the worst-ever reaction from the Muslim landlords of Kashmir in definite laison with the landlords hailing from the region of Jammu. The rich peasants aligning with the National Conference sharply reacted against the measure and there was a revolt against the leadership only to be quelled by showering of many more concessions on them. The Agrarian Reforms Act of 1972 and the Agrarian Reforms Art of 1976 drafted and enacted during the regimes headed by G. M. Sadiq and Mir Qasim (Congress) and Sheikh Abdullah (National Conference) offer the following features: (a) All the apple-Sheikhs and saffron-sharks are beyond the purview of the Acts. (b) The compensation as per the schedule II, Part A of the Act, 1972 varies from Rs. 7.50 to Rs. 500/- per kanal. It is not at the market rates of land ranging from 10,000 to 5 lac per kanal. (c) Compensatiun paid for acquiring a portion of land in the public interest is not to benefit the owner, but the tenant, who is a Muslim. (d) The Hindu widows, orphans, blind and disabled depending solely on land are left in wilderness, unprotected and uncared tor, languishing in utter poverty. (e) The Hindus under the provisions of the Acts could resume land for tilling, but were never alloweded to resume land by issuance of decrees upon decrees, blocking all possibilities for such resumption. As 90% applicants for resumption are Hindus, the government has simply ignored them. (f) The revenue records of the Kashmirian Hindus have been grossly tampered with and erased with the result their cases eat dust and have never been settled. (g) The levy collected from the 'prospective tenants' for the 'prospective owners' by way of compensation stands mis-appropriated by the revenue officials, mostly Muslims. (h) The interests of MLAs, MPs, IAS officers, secretaries (under, deputy and additional) to government departments, judges, Tehsildars and other political and economic heavy-weights, all Muslims, owning huge tracts of land stand well protected by manipulating and tampering the records. (i) As per the stipulations of the Big Landed Estates Abolition Act, the land-owners deprived of their landed property had to be provided employment at least to one member of their families, but in case of the Kashmirian Hindus, it was simply ignored. There are instances galore pinpointing the unscientific character and sheer worthlessness of the entire exercise of land reforms. (a) A Hindu land-owner is a petty pensioner, whose land goes to a Muslim millionaire. (b) Land belonging to a Hindu widow with no other means of sustenance is transferred to an apple-Sheikh. (c) A Hindu land-owner is a petty school teacher whose land is grabbed only to be transferred to a Muslim gazetted officer holding enormous assets. (d) The lands belonging to the (Hindu) deaf and dumb, mentally retarded and disabled with nothing to fall back upon are snatched and transferred to apple-Sheikhs and businessmen rolling in wealth and riches unlimited. (e) The tenants benefitted under the Acts have emerged as the Kulaks at the site of land l3 never tilling their huge tracts of land, but hiring the Bihari labourers on payment of Rs. 30/- per day and two square meals a day. (f) The Muslims emboldened by the government patronage chopped off the orchards of the Hindus and the Sikhs only to show the lands under their tenancy and the revenue hierarchy legalising the whole brutality by registering mutations in the names of the plunderers. (g) As the orchards have been placed beyond the purview of the ceiling limits, the cultivators taking law into their own hands and the Muslim authorities conniving at transforming thc agricultural lands into orchards. This practice has been resorted to on a large scale, initially started by the politically influential and affluent sections of the Muslim peasantry. (h) Even a petty- land-holder among the Hindus was not spared from the thrust of the land reforms. Be it said that the land reforms enacted with vengefulness motivated by the utmost prejudice against the Kashmirian Hindus sticking to their faith completely eroded their rural base, reducing them to the status of aliens in their own environs and pushing them out of the rural scenario, which they were accused of polluting by chanting a mantra, tolling a bell, blowing a conch and tending a temple or a shrine. At village level the reforms generated a fury of hatred and a storm of religious strife resulting in the harassment and intimidation of the Hindus ever in tight-straits. 'Occupy the lands of the Kashmirian Hindus' was the clarioncall of the top leaders of National Conference to the peasants, who took law into their own hands, beat, abused and heaped all manner of humiliation on them and the government machinery especially law-enforcing and revenue agencies aiding the whole process of loot, plunder and forcible occupation. Depriving them of sustenance by snatching away small holdings of land, the Kashmirian Hindus had two options, either to march out or get converted to Islam only to win sympathies for a relief from the Islamised bureaucracy. The Kashmirian Hindus being a fragile minority with no weapons to wield could not retaliate in the same manner as men of other communities wielding weapons retaliated by shooting dead the tenants trying to forcibly occupy their ancestral lands. It is worth to be recorded that the Hindu landlords though very few in number, were highly compassionate and considerate to their Muslim tenants and no assiduous probing of records can establish a single case where a Kashmirian Hindu landlord might have tortured or slaughtered his tenants while feudal history elsewhere is bristling with such horrendous examples. The land reforms proved practically a war waged on the Kashmirian Hindus and the war was not finished in one swoop. In fact, it was planned phase-wise. The big landed estates were abolished in 1952 and whatsoever small holdings were left in the possession of the Hindus were grabbed in 1972 and 1976. With the sole design of exerting sustained pressure on them, adding to their insecurity and instability and fear psychosis and finally leading to their exodus or liquidation, thus finishing the incomplete pogram of extirpating and decimating infidelity (kufur) from the land of Kashmir. 'Could it be asked why the applications from the Kashmirian Hindus for resumption of land provided under the Acts have been put under the carpet? Is it because the applicants are mostly Hindus'? Why have decrees upon decrees been issued, one contradicting the other, for throttling the processes of resumption? Is it because the Hindus as a matter of state policy are not to be allowed to resume land? Why have not the orchards and saffron fields stretching over miles been put to the sharp scissors of land reforms acts? Is it because they are owned by apple-Sheikhs and saffron-sharks? The Central Government under the hegemony of Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru went on watching passively how death and destruction was being wrought on the Kashmirian Hindus. It could have intervened if not by stopping the entire drama of destruction, but by the issuance of specific guidelines founded on sound expertise to the Government of Jammu and Kashmir. Even the Planning Commission could have been commissioned for drafting a fool-proof reforms programme in an impartial manner. The state government acted hastily only to transfer land from one set of people to the other ensuring the economic precedence of the Muslims over other ethnic groups which led to ominous developments destabilising the entire state. Bereft of small holdings of land with no hopeful prospects of rehabilitation, the Kashmirian Hindus as hapless victims to a tyrannical order devising each measure for their utter ruination were driven to the wall and in their sheer frustration and despair repaired to various parts of the country in quest of a meagre living. That they were migrating for greener pastures is a sheer myth manufactured by politicians like Saif-ud-din Soz, come from nowhere, only to smoke screen the unjust and inequitous treatment meted out to them by the Muslim rulers masquerading as nationalists and Congressites. Without undertaking an indepth and detailed analysis of their problems with clinical precision, the Central Government in its sheer callousness issued directions to various central departments not to recruit the migrating Kashmirian Hindus.14 Despite it, the trickle of exodus went on unabated attracting the attention of men in corridors of power in the central capital. It is generally believed that the Central Government took strong exception to the harassment and intimidation of the Kashmirian Hindus. Minding signals from the Centre, Sheikh Abdullah chose to attend a function at Sheetalnath, Srinagar organised to celebrate Lord Krishna's birth anniversary. Only as an eyewash, he had an interaction with the leadership of the Hindu community, who articulated their views on the entire gamut of issues that had cropped up for the community in the wake of post-1947 political and economic developments. The Sheikh promised redressal of their problems and grievances, but the government of the day communally tilted continued with its policy of hammer and tongs against the Hindus designed to eliminate them from all walks of life. The Hindus forming 2 percent minority in Kashmir were totally ignored by the state government out to appease the Muslims and also by the Central Government out to ingratiate itself with the Muslims. The minority of Kashmir has never been a mute minority. It has effectively highlighted its vital problems with the Central and state governments apropos economic distress, blatant discrimination on communal grounds and encroachment on religious places finally leading to their forcible occupation. The state government of any complexion openly espoused the Muslim cause, protecting Muslim interests by legislation and manipulation, not caring two hoots for the secular ideals, democratic values and constitutional tenets safe-guarding rights of all, no matter what faith and religion they harboured. The apathy and neglect exhibited by the central leaders unto the Hindu minority of Kashmir have been both amazing and mind-boggling. Aware of the captive state of the Hindu minority, they never thought of their survival against the massive onslaught of the Muslim majority communalism, which is highly aggressive and frenzied. Any attempt in the direction of eliminating the Kashmirian Hindus was a pointer to the establishment of an Islamic state in Kashmir replete with the potential of blasting the entire Indian edifice put on the pedestal of secularism, tolerance and co-existence. In the domain of politics many miles on the high-way of accession to India were traversed. Documents were signed and history was made. But, in the wake of it, the political mind of Sheikh Abdullah suffered a quick reversal and the issues, which were practically shelved, got opened up giving currency to 'plebiscite' and 'independent Kashmir' with their mesmeric impact on the mass mind. The new options being pleaded and propagated by the Sheikh had less of political cogency and more of personal ego impelling him to invite a head-on clash with the central power. His visions of maintaining Kashmir as his personal fiefdom got revived and his yellings against the very leaders, who had firmly propped him up in his struggle against an autocratic ruler, proved disastrous. There were many vigorous minds, who sensed his illusions of keeping Kashmir away from the mainstream and by spilling blood and suffering martyrdom, they blasted the separatist barrier of 'Permit System', thus bringing the State of Jammu and Kashmir closer to India to share the currents and cross-currents of mainstream life. The Sheikh had no firm convictions and was given to double talk and duplicity. He objectively carried the Kashmirian Muslims to India, but fortified them against the currents and cross-currents of Indian life with all what it means. In the back-drop of ominous political developments, the role of the Kashmirian Hindus became suspect. With their profound commitment to the forces of unity and integrity of India, they could not support a wayward thesis of independence or plebiscite, actually serving as a facade for pro-Pak forces to close up their ranks for achieving the objective of annexing Kashmir to Pakistan, which had not abandoned its policy of interference and subversion in Kashmir. Threats subduing the Hindus were openly doled out. Even surveillance was mounted on them. A close watch was mounted on the Hindu officers in the Department of Police. The activities of the Hindu leaders already a part of the governmental machine were monitored. Scandals of theft and corruption were hurled at them only to tarnish their image and lower their stock in the public eye.l5 The Kashmirian Hindus irrespective of their station and status in life were openly branded as the spies of India. As per the fiat of a top Muslim theologian responsible for the genocide of the Kashmirian Hindus, no Hindu could operate as a spy in the Muslim land, which Kashmir was by and by emerging as ethnic cleansing and econonomic and political strangulation of the minorities had been consistently and unflinchingly resorted to. The process of suspecting the bonafides of the Hindus finally touched its culmination when Sheikh Abdullah dubbed them as 'fifth column' with their gaze set at the Central Capital l6 and not joining the mainstream politics of Kashmir, which had discernible currents of separatism, secessionism and communal hatred. It is pertinent to put that the accusations levelled against the Kashmirian Hindus and also against the tall sons of the country form a part of the Sheikh's auto-biography, Aatish-e-Chinar, alleged to have heen written by a ghost writer. The said-book earning recognition from the Sahitya Academy virtually put the seal of approval on all the irrelevant and spurious observations littered over the book. The Sheikh's remarks never posed him in brighter colours, but exposed his secular credentials, which were always infirm. The ranks of communalists openly maligning the Kashmirian Hindus as the spies of lndia had already set a trend and the Sheikh did not deem it fit to counter it even half-heartedly. Instead, without offering resistance, he set his boat in the same direction. As things were shaping, the Hindus were deemed to have outlived their utility unto the Muslim cause. The end-product of the Sheikh's utterances in the book was that a wave of unprecedented hatred against the Kashmirian Hindus got generated, their bonafides became suspect, their relations with the Muslim neighbours suffered a sudden break and cumulatively the Muslim rationalily developed a vertical crack. The Sheikh had thrown ample indications that he was a part of the whole campaign for Islamisation of Kashmir. After 1975 takeover he is said to have gone to the extent of addressing the Muslim officers in the secretariat exhorting them to weed out all traces of the Hindus in the power structure, though the Islamised bureaucracy had already completed the task. In tune with the Iocal Muslim officialdom, the Sheikh pursued the policy of side-lining and detracting the outsiders belonging to the IPS and IAS cadres, taking and treating them as unwanted elements being thrust on Kashmir by a colonial power. The Muslim communalists operating under the cover of the Sheikh's calumny and slander against the Kashmirian Hindus found a fertile ground for the Muslim mobilisation for subversion, secessionism and Hindu-baiting. Since the dawn of independence, systematic efforts were made to liquidate the patriotic and peace-loving community of the Hindus. It was done under the garb of secular facade and national reconstruction. The Hindus everywhere whether in street, educational institutions or government offices were subjected to all manner of harassment and intimidation. Not only that they were reviled and a barrage of provocative invective let loose on them but what the campaign managers under the state patronage meant to achieve was polarisation of the two communities on religious grounds with all communication channels cut off or dried up. The Kashmirian Hindus known for their patience and tough fibre pocketed all the insults hurled on them and patiently bore the humiliation they were subjected to. Normally such situations have led to an out-break of communal violence in various parts of the country. The majoritarian communalism generated and perpetuated by the powers that be in connivance with the vicious communal forces operating at every level in Kashmir was directed to single-point objective of silencing, sidelining and finally liquidating the Kashmirian minority of the Hindus, who are soft, sophisticated and highly educated. From Sheikh Abdullah, Mirza Afzal Beg, G. M. Sadiq and Mir Qasim all down the line, everyone in the governmental apparatus and political frame worked with single-minded concentration to weed out the Kashmirian Hindus, who were projected as the spies of India operating on the soil of Kashmir. What had angered Sheikh Abdullah most was that the Kashmirian Hindus did not stand by him when he was deposed in 1953 for having fallen into the dragnet of a conspiracy of outside origin. Instead the Hindus had the cheek to oppose his somersaults in politics and also keep away from the politics of Plebiscite Front operating with his blessings. Following the foot-prints of that great tormentor of the Kashmirian Hindus, Sikandar, the iconoclast, Sheikh did not fight shy of repeating his decree, 'get converted or flee or get perished'. In fact, the blue-print for Islamisation of Kashmir was laid down by him only and all others succeeding him as the helmsmen of Kashmir pursued the same policy of tightening the noose on the Hindus till they got strangulated and snuffed out. All government fiats, legislations and directives were the missives hurled on them only to put them in strait jackets. All norms were violated, new norms smacked of blatant communalism and, in fact, governments of any political persuasion resorted to the norm of violating all norms only to favour and foster the Muslim interests. Quantity, mediocrity and academic poverty gained precedence over quality, brilliance and academic richness. Only to benefit the Kashmirian Muslims all constitutional guarantees were thrown to the winds and ruthlessly subverted. The Hindus, the Sikhs and the Buddhists of Laddakh were totally ignored in matters of recruitment, educational programmes and allotment of financial resources for developmental activities. In contravention of the constitutional tenets, the Muslims of the Valley were as a matter of state policy declared as backward and the Kashmirian Hindus as a creamy layer. Highly astounding was the categorisation of the posh Muslim localities inhabited by the corrupt engineers, fraudulent businessmen, drug peddlars and highly affluent people as the backward pockets and stinking slum areas inhabited by the Kashmirian Hindus as the posh and affluent localities. Fraudulent manipulation, irrational measures, communally motivated directives and partisan considerations were resorted to as devices to boost up the Muslim interests at the cost of other population segments estabishing their hegemony over the politico-economic fabric of the state. Communal representation on the basis of population was the standard policy devised to regulate recruitment in services, admissions in colleges and other training institutions. The economic devastation of the Kashmirian Hindus coupled with an onslaught on their right to live resulted in consigning them to the backwaters of the Kashmirian scenario. But, the Kashmirian Hindus never reconciled to the status of third degree citizens assigned to them by the Muslim rulers. They took their battle against the rulers to the constitutional and legal fora set up for the purpose under law. What has come their way is the feeling that the institutions established in the country have lost their strength and vitality and have failed the people of the country. The entire pyramid of courts dispensing justice has grown obese and inflexible with no muscles to meet the relevant requirements of a nation developing new dynamics. The judicial processes involving cases of economic deprivation, restoration of justiciable rights and ercroachments on the religious properties of the Kashmirian Hindus have been dilatory and time-consuming. In most of the cases the executive has shown scant respect for the court judgments and strained every nerve to subvert them reducing them almost to nullity. From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 17:01:32 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf Saeed) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 04:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Workshop on Hindustani Music and Partition Message-ID: <446011.59456.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> A Workshop on the Impact of the 1947 Partition on the Classical Music of South Asia 22 and 23 August 2008, New Delhi Dear friends, Asian Scholarship Foundation, Bangkok, and Jamia Millia Islamia, New Delhi, invite scholars, musicians, students and enthusiasts of Hindustani classical music to participate and contribute to an 2-day workshop of dialogue and music-making where we expect to have several musicians and scholars from India, Pakistan and (hopefully) Bangladesh. If you have been involved in a unique research or documentation about the development of classical music in the post-1947 South Asia, and would like to share your work or findings with others, kindly send us the details. Or if you are simply interested in this theme, you are welcome to join us in August in an informal discussion. The idea for this workshop evolved out of a larger research and documentation work carried out by the Delhi-based filmmaker and researcher, Yousuf Saeed, who spent a few months in Pakistan in 2005 for a fellowship on the music of South Asia. Yousuf’s work culminated in a research paper as well as a feature-length documentary film Khayal Darpan that has been widely screened, initiating a dialogue about concerns such as the survival of classical music and national identity in South Asia. The August workshop is part of a series of such dialogues which would be carried out in different parts of South Asia. We hope to bring together scholars, musicians, historians, and students of music and cultural studies in an informal setting to reflect upon the various issues in the study of music emerging in the context of modernity. Some of the following themes or panels would form a part of this workshop: 1. Cultural identity and the making of nations 2. Partition and the music gharana narratives 3. Traditional knowledge-transmiss ion affected by the border 4. Between popular and elite: Music adapting to the changing audience More details about these panels and the expected scholars/musicians can be seen at the following website. Further details would also be posted on many mailing lists. We are also hoping to arrange a music concert or two with the Pakistani and Bangladeshi artists in Delhi and/or elsewhere. http://www.ektaramusic.com/workshop08.html There is no charge for attending or participating in the workshop. However, you may like to inform us in advance about your attending as the seats are limited. You may forward this message to others who might be interested. Thanks Yousuf Saeed saeed.yousuf at gmail.com From asitredsalute at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 17:28:57 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 17:28:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Open letter to the prime minister of India to scrap the Indo US nuclear Deal Message-ID: Dear Friends Please see the following letter to the prime minister to scrap the Indo-US nuclear deal, if you agree with the political content please endorse the letter.And if possible please forward it to others. With Regards Asit AN OPEN LETTER TO THE PRIME MINSTER OF INDIA TO SCRAP THE INDO US NUCLEAR DEAL To Shri Manmohan Singh Prime Minister Dear Prime Minister, We the undersigned demand scrapping of the Indo-US Nuclear Deal with immediate effect. The content of the Deal which is currently being negotiated between India and the US was the first laid out in the joint statement issued by the Prime Minister and the US President on July 18, 2005 from Washington DC and further reiterated on March 2, 2006 in another joint statement by them issued from New Delhi. The signing of the Henry Hyde Act on December 18, 2006 is logical interference of the content of the Act legally making India a junior ally of the US Imperialism confiscating and trunacating our hard earned sovereignty. We therefore demand that the Indo-US Nuclear Deal be scrapped given up with immediate effect and the ongoing talks between IAEA should be called off immediately. The Indo-US Nuclear Deal is patently anti-people, will make India a strategic ally of American Imperialism in South Asia to impose its hegemony over Asia. The Deal also negates the concrete achievements gained by the International and national peace movements for disarmament and Nuclear-free World. After the example of the ruthless genocide, devastation and occupation of Iraq before us, we feel that the Indo-US Nuclear Deal will become an instrument for ruthlessly imposing the neo-liberal economic agenda and pliant regimes over the impoverished people of the Third World and further tightening the hold through the Indo-US Nuclear Deal, US Imperialism will have a firm grip over the governments of the independent nation-states of India and Asia. This makes a mockery of the cherished values of equal and democratic world order and the aspirations of the national liberation struggles including the whole spirit of decolonization. The Indo-US Nuclear Deal is an outrageous instrument of recolonization of India and Third World. The Deal, as and when comes through will, grievously undermine the current global; regime of nuclear non-proliferation, as it is meant to make an unique exception in case of India, in gross violation of underlying principles of the International peace, workers, environment and women's movements. The fact that Pakistan has been brusquely refused a similar deal by the US in spite of persistent clamouring, and Iran is being demonstratively coerced to desist from developing its own nuclear power production allowed and encouraged under article IV of the NPT which further brings out graphically the abominable discriminatory nature of the Deal. The deal is likely to trigger a stepped up vertical and horizontal proliferations all over Asia. This goes against our commitment of Nuclear-free Asia and World. by enabling India to import fuel natural or enriched Uranium, from abroad the 'Deal' would make it possible for India to use the indigenously produced Uranium exclusively for bomb making. This possible escalation in its fissile material production capacity, in all likelihood, it will push Pakistan further to nuclearise even at great cost, and thereby aggravate tensions and accelerate the arms race in the region with horrifying consequences. The arms race will divert resources of the country away from development so desperately required by the toiling masses to overcome their current poverty. We totally reject the proposition that it will enhance India's energy security and, we categorically assert that nuclear power is prohibitively costly., therefore the Deal will distort India's energy options by diverting resource guzzling, and the intrinsically hazardous and potentially catastrophic, nuclear power at the cost of eco-friendly and many times financially cheaper renewable sources of energy. With the human development index of India and the Third World miserably low, we demand that instead of spending irrationally on nuclear power, expenditures on in health, education, food security, rural and urban employment be enhanced. We want to remind you that India as the leader of the Non- Aligned Movement and as vocal participant in various international forums including the UN, has always committed itself for a Nuclear-free World and abolition of the existing nuclear weapons. In the spirit of the above we want the Government of India to ban the entry of nuclear powered sub marines of the US and other major NATO countries. After six decades after of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuclear tragedies, we demand that immediate steps to be taken for a Nuclear-free Asia and the world. The above Indo-US Nuclear Deal will further reinforce the unequal strategic relationship between the US and thereby would add momentum to the US imperialistic project for unfettered global dominance .We reject any ambitions of the Indian ruling classes to act as the a Big Brother in South Asia or to emerge as a global power basking in the reflected glory of global headman and goon. This will not only undermine India's position as a founding and leading member of the Non- Aligned Movement but will seriously undermine prestige of NAM as a whole; of meekly surrendering to the US Imperialism defying the democratic aspirations of the toiling masses of the Third World for a Nuclear-free, just and livable world. Vijay Pratap(Convener Lokayan) Babu Lal Sharma (Convenor, Global Gandhi Forum) Rakesh Bhatt (Coordinator, SADED/CSDS) Kiran Shaheen(Media and Social Activist) Chandrika(Editor-Dakhal Duniya web magazine) Prakash Kumar Ray (Film maker and Research Scholar/Film Studies/School of art & Aesthetic JNU) Jeet Bhattacharya (Research Scholar, Film Studies, School of art & Aesthetic JNU) Rishika Mehershi (Research Scholar, Performing Arts, School of art & Aesthetic JNU) Asit (Researcher and Social Activist) Kumar Sameer(Social Activist) Peeyush Pant ( Editor-Lok Samvad) From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Jul 1 17:39:21 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 17:39:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Reader-List] Amarnath Yatra Message-ID: <7B19F56E-861B-41FA-BEE2-371C72B307EC@sarai.net> Dear Kshemendra, Thank you for your considered comment, and the opportunity it gives me for a clarification. if you are implying that the 'land grab' in Kashmir began before the advent of Dogra Rule, then you are absolutely right, and I am in agreement with you. All Kings and monarchs (no matter of what faith or dynasty) are land-grabbers who dignify themselves with royal titles. They claim an authority on land, based on the pure fact of their monopoly over the means of violence. I have said this before, I have no brief, either to defend or to oppose, the actions of any king, anywhere, least of all, in Kashmir, on the basis of their faith. As far as I am concerned, all rulers and monarchs, represent autocratic principles of rule, that I have no reason to uphold or defend. This goes for Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Sikh, Christian, Jewish or Agnostic or Pagan Kings. I am absolutely certain that the Muslim kings of Kashmir, with some significant exceptions unleashed oppression and violence on the people of Kashmir. In this, they were no different, from the non-Muslim kings who came before them, or after them. My prejudices, in this specific instance, are against Kings and Kingship, not against the faiths that the Kings claim to uphold. Hence, I hope you will now agree that by saying this I have not in fact taken the debate into 'communal' territory. best Shuddha On 01-Jul-08, at 3:00 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: Dear Shuddha By linking the current day happenings with the Dogra Rule (be as it may have been in the context of 'land grants') you have crossed the 1947 Rubicon. What would stop anyone in going further back in time and bring in the excesses of the preceding ruling dynasties of various other faiths? You yourself have now taken the debate into 'communal' territory. Kshmendra Kaul Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From tapasrayx at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 18:39:27 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 09:09:27 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue In-Reply-To: <98f331e00806301826g1af66e90pacaacf4724a45a50@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00806301826g1af66e90pacaacf4724a45a50@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <486A2C87.8080008@gmail.com> J&K should probably follow West Bengal's example, where a minister is the chairman of the board. Anybody remember the wakf scam? The more things change, the more they remain the same ... from 2002 to 2006 ... see the two clippings below. Tapas ------------------------ http://health.rediff.com/news/2002/jul/05wakf.htm July 05, 2002 Wakf Board property scam has Left Front squirming Amin Babu Ahmed in Kolkata The G R Bhattacharya Commission report, which unveiled a scam in Wakf property, has caught the ruling Left Front government in West Bengal off guard. After five years of thorough research and examination of witnesses, the commission concluded that there were major irregularities in the Wakf Board during the regime of the Left Front. The report says that Wakf properties in the state, worth millions of rupees, were given out on lease or rent to businessmen at meagre rates. .... The report, made public this week six months after it was placed in the assembly, has specifically named former chairman of the Wakf Board Hamimul Huda as an accused. Another former chairman of the board is also named, but no other person has been specifically accused of wrongdoing. Incidentally, a few days before the report was tabled in the assembly, Huda was arrested on charges of questionable deals pertaining to Wakf property and this has found mention in Minorities Development Minister Mohammad Salim's Action Taken Report (in response to the findings of the G R Bhattacharya Commission's findings). Since there are no proper records of the board's properties, it is difficult to gauge the extent of the scam, Salim said. The opposition alleges that the scam involves approximately Rs 10 billion (Rs 1000 crore). "How can they be so specific when the survey is still incomplete," asks Salim ... --------------------- http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=207459 October 30, 2006 Kolkata, October 30: The Waqf Board today appointed Abdus Sattar, state minister for minority development and madrasa education, as its new chairman. Sattar will be replacing Hannan Mollah, CPI-M MP, who remained in the post for two consecutive terms since 2000. According to sources in the department, Mollah was removed following allegations of corruption against him. Advertisement Sattar, however, refuted such allegations and said ... ------------------------- > It is to be noted that the Governor heads the Hindu shrine boards > and the chief minister heads the Muslim Wakfs. The government must get out > of this kind of control and must restrict itself to provide the needed > support to public who visit shrines, temples, mosques and other kinds of > religious places and festivals/fairs. There must be a rethinking on the tax > benefits extended to the religious bodies earning crores and crores of > rupees. Such changes in policies should be applied to all over the country, > not only in the J & K. > Regards, > > Prakash From parthaekka at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 19:10:40 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 19:10:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Open letter to the prime minister of India to scrap the Indo US nuclear Deal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32144e990807010640s18d1927eibc2baf16edca12e8@mail.gmail.com> Hi Asit, Just for a moment, lets not wear the blinkers of "US Imperialism" and look at what the scenario is and what the options are: 1. India has already started the Nuclear Race with Pakistan a long time back, and with the distrust between the nations, would be surprised if they'd stop just because the current treaty is not signed. So what is this talk about India being Nuclear Free? 2. How does signing make India lose it's "hard earned sovereignty"? On one hand you talk of a nuclear race and on the other do not wish to sign on the dotted line to use nuclear bye products for peaceful purposes! 3. We're already chock a block on Coal and other power creators. With the water based ones, the displacement will be high (not counting the arguments with Pakistan & Bangladesh) and, of course, the recent posts on this list about the water in Kashmir. 4. What sustainable method of power generation do you have in mind - unless your contention is that India should live without power and that power is only for cities. Sounds highly illogical to me. In fact the whole message comes across as " they're the US, therefore everything they do is evil" which is something I will not accept as a reason. Both Russia and China have Nuclear capability for both power and warfare, yet because it is the US that has offered it, the treaty has become a tool of "US Imperialism". Doesn't wash. Rgds, Partha .................... On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 5:28 PM, Asit asitreds wrote: > Dear Friends > > Please see the following letter to the prime minister > to scrap the Indo-US nuclear deal, if you agree with the political content > please endorse the letter.And if possible please forward it to others. > > > > With Regards > > Asit > > > > AN OPEN LETTER TO THE PRIME MINSTER OF INDIA TO SCRAP THE INDO US NUCLEAR > DEAL > > > > To > > Shri Manmohan Singh > > Prime Minister > > > > Dear Prime Minister, > > > > We the undersigned demand scrapping of the Indo-US Nuclear Deal with > immediate effect. The content of the Deal which is currently being > negotiated between India and the US was the first laid out in the joint > statement issued by the Prime Minister and the US President on July 18, 2005 > from Washington DC and further reiterated on March 2, 2006 in another joint > statement by them issued from New Delhi. The signing of the Henry Hyde Act > on December 18, 2006 is logical interference of the content of the Act > legally making India a junior ally of the US Imperialism confiscating > and trunacating > our hard earned sovereignty. > > > > We therefore demand that the Indo-US Nuclear Deal be scrapped given up with > immediate effect and the ongoing talks between IAEA should be called off > immediately. > > > > The Indo-US Nuclear Deal is patently anti-people, will make India a > strategic ally of American Imperialism in South Asia to impose its hegemony > over Asia. The Deal also negates the concrete achievements gained by the > International and national peace movements for disarmament and Nuclear-free > World. After the example of the ruthless genocide, devastation and > occupation of Iraq before us, we feel that the Indo-US Nuclear Deal will > become an instrument for ruthlessly imposing the neo-liberal economic agenda > and pliant regimes over the impoverished people of the Third World and > further tightening the hold through the Indo-US Nuclear Deal, US Imperialism > will have a firm grip over the governments of the independent > nation-states of India and Asia. This makes a mockery of the cherished > values of equal and democratic world order and the aspirations of the > national liberation struggles including the whole spirit of decolonization. > > > > The Indo-US Nuclear Deal is an outrageous instrument of recolonization of > India and Third World. The Deal, as and when comes through will, grievously > undermine the current global; regime of nuclear non-proliferation, as it is > meant to make an unique exception in case of India, in gross violation of > underlying principles of the International peace, workers, environment and > women's movements. > > > > The fact that Pakistan has been brusquely refused a similar deal by the US > in spite of persistent clamouring, and Iran is being demonstratively coerced > to desist from developing its own nuclear power production allowed and > encouraged under article IV of the NPT which further brings out graphically > the abominable discriminatory nature of the Deal. The deal is likely to > trigger a stepped up vertical and horizontal proliferations all over Asia. > This goes against our commitment of Nuclear-free Asia and World. by enabling > India to import fuel natural or enriched Uranium, from abroad the 'Deal' > would make it possible for India to use the indigenously produced Uranium > exclusively for bomb making. This possible escalation in its fissile > material production capacity, in all likelihood, it will push Pakistan > further to nuclearise even at great cost, and thereby aggravate tensions and > accelerate the arms race in the region with horrifying consequences. The > arms race will divert resources of the country away from development so > desperately required by the toiling masses to overcome their current > poverty. > > > > We totally reject the proposition that it will enhance India's energy > security and, we categorically assert that nuclear power is prohibitively > costly., therefore the Deal will distort India's energy options by diverting > resource guzzling, and the intrinsically hazardous and potentially > catastrophic, nuclear power at the cost of eco-friendly and many times > financially cheaper renewable sources of energy. > > > > With the human development index of India and the Third World miserably low, > we demand that instead of spending irrationally on nuclear power, > expenditures on in health, education, food security, rural and urban > employment be enhanced. > > We want to remind you that India as the leader of the Non- Aligned Movement > and as vocal participant in various international forums including the UN, > has always committed itself for a Nuclear-free World and abolition of the > existing nuclear weapons. In the spirit of the above we want the Government > of India to ban the entry of nuclear powered sub marines of the US and other > major NATO countries. After six decades after of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki > nuclear tragedies, we demand that immediate steps to be taken for a > Nuclear-free Asia and the world. > > > > The above Indo-US Nuclear Deal will further reinforce the unequal strategic > relationship between the US and thereby would add momentum to the US > imperialistic project for unfettered global dominance .We reject any > ambitions of the Indian ruling classes to act as the a Big Brother in South > Asia or to emerge as a global power basking in the reflected glory of global > headman and goon. This will not only undermine India's position as a > founding and leading member of the Non- Aligned Movement but will seriously > undermine prestige of NAM as a whole; > > of meekly surrendering to the US Imperialism defying the democratic > aspirations of the toiling masses of the Third World for a Nuclear-free, > just and livable world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vijay Pratap(Convener Lokayan) > > > > Babu Lal Sharma (Convenor, Global Gandhi Forum) > > > > Rakesh Bhatt (Coordinator, SADED/CSDS) > > > > Kiran Shaheen(Media and Social Activist) > > > > Chandrika(Editor-Dakhal Duniya web magazine) > > > > Prakash Kumar Ray (Film maker and Research Scholar/Film Studies/School of > art & Aesthetic JNU) > > > > Jeet Bhattacharya (Research Scholar, Film Studies, School of art & Aesthetic > JNU) > > > > Rishika Mehershi (Research Scholar, Performing Arts, School of art & > Aesthetic JNU) > > > > Asit (Researcher and Social Activist) > > > > Kumar Sameer(Social Activist) > > > > Peeyush Pant ( Editor-Lok Samvad) > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From indersalim at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 19:47:06 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 19:47:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra In-Reply-To: <79BDBC00-FF66-4F16-A714-45DE6314B0C4@sarai.net> References: <6b79f1a70806300414k66445bfai709f596b9ab8368d@mail.gmail.com> <79BDBC00-FF66-4F16-A714-45DE6314B0C4@sarai.net> Message-ID: <47e122a70807010717h14caa44ah6c3624f4300f02ee@mail.gmail.com> quote Sonia "The wise pilgrim should as k why it is that the lingam has begun to melt". i quote Rasneek, "The Lingam is melting because even the Lord is sick of us "Kashmiris" and i quote Oscar wilde " we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars " I believe, that a truly WISE piligrim often discovers the LIGHT within...., in the begining it was that intense thirst for wisdom and knowledge taht gave birth to a piligrim... and the Lord ( sounds, somewhere in London ) if there is one which falls within the grasp of a routine perception, even, is still not so SICK that HE decides to MELT because of us. We are truly capable of bringing everything into the "gutter" where we are and see things there, instead of where they are.... of course we can blame the times and politics of our times for our being so... My dear friend Gulshan Majeed says in his poem , that now, neither the milk is pure, nor the sugar is good for health.... this has reference for Mahjoors famous line which says the hindu and muslim are like milk and sugar and we needs a sweet blending for a sweeter product... If there is still some possibility... ( this is also humour ) a true Shiva lover should support the abolition of article 377 of indian constitution which prohibits the practice of homosexuality ...this is because Shive himself was ravished by the charms of Mohini who was Vishu in disguise to save himself from Basmasura... a true shiva lover will never forget Lul Ded, who said that if you are truely wise, dont discriminate between Hindu and muslim because Shiva is all time presence... And a true Shive devotee will also question the non-implementaion of that play-bi-site because if kashmir was a free country like india and pakistan in 1947... i believe, people of kashmir would have donated 1000 acres of land to the shrine board, but ...... with love indersalim i remember, i had my adventure 'travel ' to amarnath in 1986... through pahalgam...not the easy route of Baltal as most of devotees prefer now.....The cave looked magnificient from below... and there was absolutely no lingum that year, but truly i missed nothing, unlike the the present J&K governer, the journey was tough and full of rain and snow....the journey itself was the reward ( like any other hilly picnic ) .. but unlike the rich who hire local men to carry them on their shoulders. i remember, there was some fight between nanga sadhus in the cave itself and police had to fire should gun shots in the air to keep them angry sadhu at a distance from the fenced space inside the cave... ( i have similar stories from people of different faiths who travel by sea or by air to meet their gods ...perhaps keeps people busy... From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 19:53:45 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 07:23:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] [Reader-List] Amarnath Yatra In-Reply-To: <7B19F56E-861B-41FA-BEE2-371C72B307EC@sarai.net> Message-ID: <821531.73545.qm@web57215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Shuddha   An interesting debate. It would be sad if it went the direction of "if not you and not your father, then it was your grandfather who sullied the water I am drinking".   Having, I think, a fair idea of your 'philosophy' in such matters, I found the comment somewhat out-of-place. Your response makes clear your attitude.   Connected thought - the problem with most discussions on Kashmir (and such issues) is in opposing sides of an argument using different 'point of time in the past' as reference points to specify 'that is when the problem started' and then around that weave arguments about what happened 'thereafter'. When the 'absolute' reference point in time differs, it is highly unlikely that there will be common areas of agreement or even understanding.   In the case of Kashmir perhaps 1947 should be that 'absolute' reference point in time. What happened before 1947 can at best be 'backgrounders' for the 1947 crossover. If the 'backgrounders' become a part of the 'main body' of arguments, then any discussion will ultimately only be a slanging match. Not you? Then it was your forefathers.   That is why the reigns of Rajas and Maharajahs and Badshahs and Sultans and their 'doings' need to be avoided in a discussion on Kashmir. They 'owned' terriotory. They 'owned' the people. They bought and sold not only territory and protection for territory but also the people.  That is how the world was. That is how the world still is in many of it's parts. Protesting the 'now' is legitimate in my opinion. Protesting the 'past' is foolish in my opinion.   Thats it for now.   Kshmendra   --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Reader-List] Amarnath Yatra To: "sarai list" Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 5:39 PM Dear Kshemendra, Thank you for your considered comment, and the opportunity it gives me for a clarification. if you are implying that the 'land grab' in Kashmir began before the advent of Dogra Rule, then you are absolutely right, and I am in agreement with you. All Kings and monarchs (no matter of what faith or dynasty) are land-grabbers who dignify themselves with royal titles. They claim an authority on land, based on the pure fact of their monopoly over the means of violence. I have said this before, I have no brief, either to defend or to oppose, the actions of any king, anywhere, least of all, in Kashmir, on the basis of their faith. As far as I am concerned, all rulers and monarchs, represent autocratic principles of rule, that I have no reason to uphold or defend. This goes for Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Sikh, Christian, Jewish or Agnostic or Pagan Kings. I am absolutely certain that the Muslim kings of Kashmir, with some significant exceptions unleashed oppression and violence on the people of Kashmir. In this, they were no different, from the non-Muslim kings who came before them, or after them. My prejudices, in this specific instance, are against Kings and Kingship, not against the faiths that the Kings claim to uphold. Hence, I hope you will now agree that by saying this I have not in fact taken the debate into 'communal' territory. best Shuddha On 01-Jul-08, at 3:00 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: Dear Shuddha By linking the current day happenings with the Dogra Rule (be as it may have been in the context of 'land grants') you have crossed the 1947 Rubicon. What would stop anyone in going further back in time and bring in the excesses of the preceding ruling dynasties of various other faiths? You yourself have now taken the debate into 'communal' territory. Kshmendra Kaul Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From nityajacob at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 20:41:31 2008 From: nityajacob at yahoo.com (Nitya Jacob) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 08:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra Message-ID: <378979.61337.qm@web30805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This is about as perverse as it gets Nitya ----- Original Message ---- From: inder salim To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Tuesday, July 1, 2008 7:47:06 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra quote Sonia "The wise pilgrim should as k why it is that the lingam has begun to melt". i quote Rasneek, "The Lingam is melting because even the Lord is sick of us "Kashmiris" and i quote Oscar wilde " we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars " I believe, that a truly WISE piligrim often discovers the LIGHT within...., in the begining it was that intense thirst for wisdom and knowledge taht gave birth to a piligrim... and the Lord ( sounds, somewhere in London ) if there is one which falls within the grasp of a routine perception, even, is still not so SICK that HE decides to MELT because of us. We are truly capable of bringing everything into the "gutter" where we are and see things there, instead of where they are.... of course we can blame the times and politics of our times for our being so... My dear friend Gulshan Majeed says in his poem , that now, neither the milk is pure, nor the sugar is good for health.... this has reference for Mahjoors famous line which says the hindu and muslim are like milk and sugar and we needs a sweet blending for a sweeter product... If there is still some possibility... ( this is also humour ) a true Shiva lover should support the abolition of article 377 of indian constitution which prohibits the practice of homosexuality ...this is because Shive himself was ravished by the charms of Mohini who was Vishu in disguise to save himself from Basmasura... a true shiva lover will never forget Lul Ded, who said that if you are truely wise, dont discriminate between Hindu and muslim because Shiva is all time presence... And a true Shive devotee will also question the non-implementaion of that play-bi-site because if kashmir was a free country like india and pakistan in 1947... i believe, people of kashmir would have donated 1000 acres of land to the shrine board, but ...... with love indersalim i remember, i had my adventure 'travel ' to amarnath in 1986... through pahalgam...not the easy route of Baltal as most of devotees prefer now.....The cave looked magnificient from below... and there was absolutely no lingum that year, but truly i missed nothing, unlike the the present J&K governer, the journey was tough and full of rain and snow....the journey itself was the reward ( like any other hilly picnic ) .. but unlike the rich who hire local men to carry them on their shoulders. i remember, there was some fight between nanga sadhus in the cave itself and police had to fire should gun shots in the air to keep them angry sadhu at a distance from the fenced space inside the cave... ( i have similar stories from people of different faiths who travel by sea or by air to meet their gods ...perhaps keeps people busy... _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From nityajacob at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 20:44:03 2008 From: nityajacob at yahoo.com (Nitya Jacob) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 08:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra Message-ID: <20517.59067.qm@web30801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Maybe we should go 60 million years back when India collided with the Asian landmass and started the process of throwing up the Himalayan range... It precedes religion and human beings by a little bit. ----- Original Message ---- From: Kshmendra Kaul To: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Cc: sarai list Sent: Tuesday, July 1, 2008 3:00:19 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra Dear Shuddha By linking the current day happenings with the Dogra Rule (be as it may have been in the context of 'land grants') you have crossed the 1947 Rubicon. What would stop anyone in going further back in time and bring in the excesses of the preceding ruling dynasties of various other faiths? You yourself have now taken the debate into 'communal' territory. Kshmendra Kaul --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra To: "Aditya Raj Kaul" Cc: "sarai list" Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 1:00 PM Dear Aditya, Thank you for your response to the ongoing debate on the Amarnath issue on this list. On 01-Jul-08, at 10:17 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > . I don't think Muslims would have > felt the same restrictions and protests in case of their Haj House's, > structures etc. across India in every nook and corner. > If there is any haj house anywhere in India that has been built by the arbitrary occupation of reserve forest land, it should be torn down. As far as I know, this has not happenned, because Haj Houses are located in dense urban areas. > Then why these protests. Should we also demand that funds > and land to various mosques in Kashmir including Hazaratbal be held > back ? I totally agree with you, the state should get out of the business of funding any subsidies to any religious institution of any religion whatsoever. I have earlier said on this list that the Haj subsidy should be done away with, and every subsidy to every Hindu institution, or pilgrimage, including the Amarnath and Kailash- Mansarovar yatras. Religious institutions, sects, movements are resourceful enough to be able to look after themselves and their adherents. > > > Those who scream at top of their voice about Demographic Changes > are nothing > but taking a bit too far. How much polulation would a 40 hectare land > accomodate anyway ? The biggest demographic change was with the > exodus of > more than 3 and half lakh Kashmiri Hindus from the valley. Sadly, > its a > forgotten tragedy. > I agree with you, in my last post, I have said that the question of 'Demographic Change' is a red herring, and does more damage than good to the movement against land transfer in Kashmir. However, changing the character of 40 acres of land can disturb the ecology of a region. As can any attempt to convert a limited duration seasonal pilgrimage into a year long, or nearly year long affair. It is doubtful whether the fragile ecology of the region can sustain the burden of 'lakhs' of pilgrims throughout the year, or even for a very long time each year. The plan for the erection of permanent structures on those 40 acres opens out the possibility of a much longer pilgrimage period, with many more pilgrims than the ecosystem of the area can sustain. An objection to this fact is not an objection to the myth of 'demographic change'. I find your coinage of the term polulation interesting. Is it a compound of population and pollution ? > As my great-grandfather was the first Ornithologist of Asia, I've > some if > not all information on Environment, its protection and also tilted > government policies in relation to Kashmir especially. Major > ecological > imbalance occur when locals push tons of waste material and toxic > substances > into the lakes like the Dal. Many know what it has resulted it now. > Also, > the land mafia in Kashmir (Mufti being strong part of it) is > another major > force. They cut thousands of trees to clear land and sell illegally > or maybe > legally through corrupt administration and revenue officers. > Again, I agree with you, the actions of the land mafia in Kashmir (which have occurred throughout the last sixty odd years, and before) are responsible for the present crisis in the ecology of the Kashmir valley. Perhaps the biggest land mafia of all were the rulers and courtiers of the erstwhile Dogra state of Jammu and Kashmir, and of course the big landowners, (some of whose burden on the land was relieved when the land reforms occurred in the 1950s). best Shuddha > > > > On 7/1/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> >> Dear Rahul, >> >> Why is it naiive to believe that tens of thousands of protestors >> would take to the streets for environmental reasons? Are you trying >> to say that tens of thousands of protestors do not turn up on the >> streets for environmental reasons? As far as I know, tens of >> thousands of protestors routinely protested in the Narmada Valley for >> environmental reasons, on several occasions, across several years. >> Why should Kashmir be different? >> >> Having said that, I would like to underscore that I am not for a >> moment making a categorical statement, either way, about the >> sincerity of the sudden display of 'ecological consciousness' by >> elements within the Kashmiri separatist constiuency, or within any >> other segment in the Kashmiri political spectrum today. I have no way >> of gauging the sincerity of these entities when it comes to >> environmental issues. No one has any means of gauging their >> insincerity either. I am, in fact, not interested in sitting on >> judgement on whether the protestors are 'sincere' or not. I can see >> why there should be protests. And if there are protests, I think they >> ought not be dismissed on the basis of speculations about the >> purported 'sincerity' of the protestors. >> >> Furthermore, there is nothing that demonstrates to me that a >> sentiment against a change in the demographic profile of a region is >> identical to a sentiment against Hindu pilgrims. No one has said >> anything either implcitly, or explicitly about pilgrims. I will come >> to my take on the question of 'demographic shifts' later. >> >> Pilgrims are transients. They do not settle and change the >> demographic profile of a place. The protests are against the transfer >> of land. The transfer of land can legitimately raise the suspicion >> that permanent structures will be build on that land, (why else argue >> for a change in the status of the owner of the land). It is clear >> that the permanence of these structures does not have any relation to >> the duration or necessities of the traditional 'Pilgrimage Season' in >> Amarnath. It may be remembered, that even at the height of the >> Kashmir insurgency, when some groups had sought to attack the >> Amarnath pilgrims, the Hizbul Mujahideen, the largest and most >> significant armed Kashmiri secessionist outfit, issued statements >> against any attempts to attack Amarnath pilgrims. >> >> The Action Committee Against Land Transfer, the organization co >> ordinating the Anti land Transfer movement in Kashmir has >> categorically stated that it has nothing against pilgrims or the >> pilgrimage to Amarnath. >> >> None of this amounts, in my book, to an adequate amount of >> circumstantial evidence for 'sentiments' against pilgrims. Would it >> not be better if we saw the reality of this anger against the pattern >> of the forcible acquisition of land by state agencies in Kashmir. >> >> Let me conclude by saying that I do not think that anything done on >> 38.99 acres of land can amount to a demographic shift. And those who >> (in Kashmir) , even within the Action Committee Against Land Transfer >> are talking about a 'demographic shift' with reference to the >> Amarnath issue are pursuing a red herring. There is a real issue of >> the forcible acquisition of land by agencies of the state and the >> armed forces in Jammu and Kashmir, that is much wider in terms of its >> ramifications than the single issue of Amarnath alone. >> >> I for one, do not think that the presence of Bangladeshi immigrants >> in say, Assam, needs to be attacked because it represents the threat >> of a demographic shift to some people. There are good reasons why in >> some parts of India (in J&K under article 370 and under the Fifths >> Schedule of the Constitution in certain notified tribal areas in >> different parts of the country) non aborigionals or non-state >> subjects (in the case of J&K) are barred from acquiring landed >> property. These have to do with the histories of disposession and >> land alienation in these areas. But that does not mean that such >> people (non aboriginals and non state subjects) cannot live in these >> areas. To state that would be to confuse lived practices of >> habitation with the ownership of property, and to confuse the >> category of the citizen with the reality of the denizen. >> >> best >> >> Shuddha >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From amit.mahanti at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 21:49:08 2008 From: amit.mahanti at gmail.com (Amit Mahanti) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 21:49:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Protest against the discriminatory policy of Urban Pind- Please Circulate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <852cf9500807010919h24b7c17ay2b5bf8f822572c0e@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Amrit Sharma Date: Jun 28, 2008 4:35 PM Subject: Fwd: Protest against the discriminatory policy of Urban Pind- Please Circulate To: amit.mahanti at gmail.com, arup at panossouthasia.org, aasthachauhan at gmail.com, alt.leo at gmail.com, anjanagos at yahoo.co.in, assamnen at yahoo.co.uk, Xonzoi Barbora , Majlis Culture , Nandini Seema , chandrahas.choudhury at gmail.com, desire_machine at yahoo.com, fst north east , farhad.vania at gtz.de, gosanat at gmail.com, parvati sharma , interact at khojworkshop.org, kazuahmed at gmail.com, Radha Khan , kala at sociologist.com, kazu at panossouthasia.org, khojinteract at gmail.com, lindachhakchhuak at yahoo.co.in, mukulgoswami at vsnl.net, navjotaltaf1 at hotmail.com, nchizami at yahoo.co.uk, nens at sancharnet.in, pukar at pukar.org.in, parodevi at gmail.com, pooja.poojasood at gmail.com, prince.shillong at gmail.com, susana.abraham at gmail.com, sutrahp at gmail.com, sutrahp at yahoo.co.in, samta vij , warjri at email.com, Nivedith Alva , Niret Alva , " neelam at airtelbroadband.in" , Nikhlesh < archikans at yahoo.co.uk>, Achan Mungleng , Amit Sarma < amitsarma at angular.org>, Rhona Bhuyan , "Mainali, Bipul" < bmainali at nixonpeabody.com>, Jullee Bhuyan , Sahana Basavapatna , baruapadmaja at yahoo.co.in, partha choudhury , "danil at cseindia.org" < danil at cseindia.org>, neesha dutt , deepak.em at gmail.com, deeptha.achar at gmail.com, Geetika Narang , "Goswami, Vishnu Pratim" , gopa.sabharwal at gmail.com, hawkserv at gmail.com, internship at ncas.org, iora at kazirangasafari.com, janaki.abraham at gmail.com, jawahar at sarai.net, jmadhab at gmail.com, Subasri Krishnan , Kala , Renee Lulam < renee75 at gmail.com>, meeraharanalva at gmail.com, mlyngdoh at hotmail.com, nanditabsarma at yahoo.com, priyankatrehan pillai < priyankatrehanpillai at gmail.com>, poojasatyogi at gmail.com, Pauliina Salminen < pauliina.salminen at gmail.com>, Rahul Roy , Radhika Rao , radhika.chopra at gmail.com, ritabrara at yahoo.com, rumjhumg at miditech.tv, Sarover , subroto sharma < subrotos60 at yahoo.com>, shail at csds.org, shail at csdsdelhi.org, taytong at theatreworks.org.sg, Uma , aali sinha < aali_sinha at hotmail.com>, amlan jyoti goswami , Anjana Sen , Ankur Huria , Ankur Khanna , Archana Mohan , BHRIGUPATI SINGH , Ranjima Baruah , basumatary at mailcity.com, Bhaskar Barua , Bikram Phookun , Prasanta Basumatary , Snigdha Bisht , chumben humtsoe < chumben_h at yahoo.co.in>, chungku chhakchhuak , lenn chongloi , Siddhartha Chaudhuri < schaud at rediffmail.com>, Tapoja Chaudhuri , David Pakes < david.pakes at undp.org>, divya jain , ujala dhaka < ujaladhaka at rediffmail.com>, Swati Mitra , Gitanjali singh , Ramachandra Guha , hemalatha venkataraman , Ritambhara Hebbar , Cord India , joy samadder , Ritu Jacob , Kathryn Tomlinson , Phoebe Wong , Rahul Roy , Rekha Konsam , Rekha Konsam , shreerupa mitra , harish narain , Sumitra Nair < sumitra_nair at rediffmail.com>, peter sootinck , rokhsar vacharia , tapoja chaudhuri < tapoja at u.washington.edu>, Sucheta Malik , Uma Seth < umaseth at yahoo.com>, wrick mitra , SAROVER ZAIDI < sarover.zaidi at icicibank.com> - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Amrit Sharma Date: Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 4:24 PM Subject: Protest against the discriminatory policy of Urban Pind- Please Circulate To: Susan Abraham , jkidwai at rediffmail.com Dear Friends, Last Thursday, June 19th, a young woman photographer from Nagaland was kept from entering a Delhi lounge bar, Urban Pind, on their expat night, because she was from the Northeast. Her friends, a German professional and a south Indian editor, were allowed in, and others poured in, and the management, after seeing the Naga woman's face, said she wasn't 'of the right profile' and demanded to know which country she was from. The woman has sent Urban Pind a legal notice, and since then, the management has tried to deny charges. On national television, the owner of Urban Pind, Mr Farooq, admitted he has made a mistake, but is still refusing to contact the girl's lawyers or make a public apology, as per the legal notice. This is just one of other incidents at Urban Pind and other bars, lounges etc in Delhi. One of many incidents of discrimination against people from the Northeast - and indeed those of all non 'Indian' colours and ethnicities. This incident has sparked a wave of outrage nation wide, as well as an outpouring of frustration from people who have until this moment been unable to speak up. *We, those who stand up against racial discrimination in India, are planning to organise a peaceful protest outside Urban Pind, this Thursday, July 3rd, starting 8 pm. *Please spread the word and let us know if you would like to be a part of this protest.We are so encouraged by everyone's support, and count on you to join us this Thursday. We would be glad any suggestions or assistance in planning the protest, please mail us with your feedback. Let's all stand up and fight the good fight. *Full details are available on the links to media coverage below, on the Facebook group 'Boycott Urban Pind' and a blog devoted to the fight against racial discrimination * *http://www.freewebs.com/thegoodfight/blog.htm* *.* MEDIA COVERAGE NDTV prime time coverage - India in 60 http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080054462&ch=6/25/2008%2011:13:00%20PM CNN IBN features the incident in their daily news bulletins http://www.ibnlive.com/news/racial-profiling-at-club-northeast-girl-denied-entry/67796-3.htm Times Now http://www.timesnow.tv/Newsdtls.aspx?NewsID=10557 An article by Indian Express which first documented the incident http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Naga-girl-alleges-region-bias-at-GK-lounge-bar/326722/ ______________________________ *Also a note: please send this on to all of your friends, especially expats: we are boycotting Urban Pind expat night, and indeed their establishment, until a public apology is issued.* From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 22:03:53 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 22:03:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra In-Reply-To: <47e122a70807010717h14caa44ah6c3624f4300f02ee@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70806300414k66445bfai709f596b9ab8368d@mail.gmail.com> <79BDBC00-FF66-4F16-A714-45DE6314B0C4@sarai.net> <47e122a70807010717h14caa44ah6c3624f4300f02ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807010933h69d26152ob7cd241e51064e7c@mail.gmail.com> Salim , you quoted "a true shiva lover will never forget Lul Ded, who said that if you are truely wise, dont discriminate between Hindu and muslim because Shiva is all time presence..." We only wish if the musilms of Kashmir would also have loved Shiva worsipper Lalleshwari , for they would not have discriminated against the Hindus of Kashmir and the pligrims. Pawan On 7/1/08, inder salim wrote: > > quote Sonia "The wise pilgrim > should as k why it is that the lingam has begun to melt". > > i quote Rasneek, "The Lingam is melting because even the Lord is sick of us > "Kashmiris" > > and i quote Oscar wilde " we are all in the gutter but some of us are > looking at the stars " > > I believe, that a truly WISE piligrim often discovers the LIGHT > within...., in the begining it was that intense thirst for wisdom and > knowledge taht gave birth to a piligrim... > > and the Lord ( sounds, somewhere in London ) if there is one which > falls within the grasp of a routine perception, even, is still not so > SICK that HE decides to MELT because of us. > > We are truly capable of bringing everything into the "gutter" where we > are and see things there, instead of where they are.... of course we > can blame the times and politics of our times for our being so... > > My dear friend Gulshan Majeed says in his poem , that now, neither the > milk is pure, nor the sugar is good for health.... this has reference > for Mahjoors famous line which says the hindu and muslim are like > milk and sugar and we needs a sweet blending for a sweeter product... > > If there is still some possibility... ( this is also humour ) a true > Shiva lover should support the abolition of article 377 of indian > constitution which prohibits the practice of homosexuality ...this > is because Shive himself was ravished by the charms of Mohini who was > Vishu in disguise to save himself from Basmasura... > > a true shiva lover will never forget Lul Ded, who said that if you are > truely wise, dont discriminate between Hindu and muslim because Shiva > is all time presence... > > And a true Shive devotee will also question the non-implementaion of > that play-bi-site > because if kashmir was a free country like india and pakistan in > 1947... i believe, people of kashmir would have donated 1000 acres of > land to the shrine board, but ...... > > with love > > indersalim > > i remember, i had my adventure 'travel ' to amarnath in 1986... > through pahalgam...not the easy route of Baltal as most of devotees > prefer now.....The cave looked magnificient from below... and there > was absolutely no lingum that year, but truly i missed nothing, > unlike the the present J&K governer, the journey was tough and full > of rain and snow....the journey itself was the reward ( like any other > hilly picnic ) .. but unlike the rich who hire local men to carry them > on their shoulders. i remember, there was some fight between nanga > sadhus in the cave itself and police had to fire should gun shots in > the air to keep them angry sadhu at a distance from the fenced space > inside the cave... ( i have similar stories from people of different > faiths who travel by sea or by air to meet their gods ...perhaps keeps > people busy... > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 22:42:00 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:12:00 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Reader-List] Amarnath Yatra: an article from the Hindu References: <7B19F56E-861B-41FA-BEE2-371C72B307EC@sarai.net> Message-ID: <034701c8db9d$956e2070$3ffebd48@taraprakash> The main culprits behind the crisis in J&K are the PDP and the congress party. The interest of Congress in polarizing the voters in to the herds listening to the shepherds like Togadias and Geelanis is understandable. It takes away the media's focus from economy to Kashmir. Having said the obvious I am pasting an article from Hindu on the same issue. Piety, paranoia, and Kashmir’s politics of hate Praveen Swami -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why have so many people become willing to sacrifice their lives just because pilgrims might be temporarily housed in land on an extent of four cricket stadia? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Back in 1912, Maqbool Shah Kraalwari published the Greeznama, an extended lament about the irreligious character of the Kashmiri peasantry: “They regard the mosque and the temple as equal, seeing no difference between muddy puddles and the ocean, They know not the sacred, honourable or the respectable.” Less than a century on, the landscape Kraalwari described has disappeared. For the past fortnight, Jammu and Kashmir has been scorched by communal conflagration of a scale and intensity that have taken many by surprise. Hundreds have been injured; four people have died. Although Islamist-led mob violence has often been seen in recent years — the 2006 protests against a prostitution scandal and last summer’s attacks on couples in Srinagar are cases in point — the dispute over permission granted to Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board (SASB) to build temporary accommodation for pilgrims on 39.88 hectares of forest land brought more people on to the streets than at any point since the early years of Jammu and Kashmir’s long jihad. For the most part, commentators have cast the conflict as the outcome of the former Governor S.K. Sinha’s aggressive advocacy of Hindu chauvinist interests, the search of the secessionist for an emotive cause, and the opportunism of major political parties. All these explanations are correct. None of them, though, fully explains why so many have become willing to sacrifice their lives just because pilgrims might temporarily be housed on land just large enough to accommodate four cricket stadia. “It is like worship,” Islamist patriarch Syed Ali Shah Geelani recently said of the anti-India political campaign he leads, “like the recitation of the Kalima [profession of faith], like the offering of namaz, like the paying of Zakat [charity], like the performance of Haj.” For Mr. Geelani and his Tehreek-i-Hurriyat, the anti-Shrine Board protests are a crucible in which piety and xenophobic paranoia can be forged into a programme of resistance to India. At a June 23 meeting in Srinagar, Mr. Geelani explained the importance of the SASB issue. He charged General Sinha with working to “alter the demographic character of our State.” “I caution my nation that if we do not wake up now, India and its stooges will succeed and we will lose our land forever.” Evidence of the threat, Mr. Geelani told a rally earlier on June 20, was abundant. He pointed to recent cases of sexual violence and kidnapping of children. “Such crimes were unheard of in the Valley but the day the number of outsiders increased, the crime rate here also went up.” Moreover, Mr. Geelani said, outsiders were “promoting their own polytheistic culture” in alliance with the Indian state. Asking Kashmir residents to neither employ nor provide accommodation to outsiders, he asked migrant workers to “leave Kashmir peacefully.” Mr. Geelani’s rantings — none of which would have been unfamiliar to Hindutva leaders in Maharashtra — were of a piece with Kashmiri Islamists’ long-standing xenophobia. In the decades after independence, scholar Yoginder Sikand tells us, Jamaat-e-Islami leaders believed that an “Indian conspiracy was at work to destroy the Islamic identity of the Kashmiris.” It was alleged that “the government of India had dispatched a team to Andalusia, headed by the Kashmiri Pandit [politician and State Home Minister] D.P. Dhar, to investigate how Islam was driven out of Spain and to suggest measures as to how ish experiment could be repeated in Kashmir.” Resistance to this imagined plot often exploded into violence. In May 1973, an Anantnag college student discovered an encyclopaedia containing a drawing of archangel Gabriel dictating the Koran to Prophet Muhammed — an image that, in some readings of Islam, is blasphemous. Protesters demanded that the author be hanged: “A vain demand,” Katherine Frank has wryly noted, “since Arthur Mee had died in England in 1943.” India proscribed the sale of the out-of-print book, but four died in rioting. Politicians often drank at these communal wellsprings. At a March 4, 1987 rally in Srinagar, Muslim United Front candidates, clad in the white robes of the pious, declared that Islam could not survive under the authority of a secular state. MUF leaders built their campaign around protesting the sale of liquor and laws that proscribed cow slaughter — represented as threats to the authentic Muslim character of Kashmir. Fears of religious-ethnic annihilation have again surfaced. Writing in the Srinagar-based Rising Kashmir, Khalid Wasim Hassan asserted that “India is now openly following a policy aimed at changing the demography of Kashmir.” India hoped that “settling non-State subjects is going to have its impact on the discourse of the self-determination movement and the end result of [an eventual] plebiscite [sic.]”. Islamists aren’t the only ones advancing such arguments. Senior Congress leader Ghulam Rasool Kar, writing in the Urdu-language Khidmat, claimed that the purpose of the land transfer was to reduce the Muslim majority to a minority. Notably, the leadership for many of the mobs involved in the recent violence has come from local-level workers of pro-India parties, not Islamists. In Ganderbal and Anantnag, for example, the National Conference leveraged the issue to attack the People’s Democratic Party. Competitive communalism Few of the arguments against the land use rights granted to SASB stand on firm empirical foundations. No evidence exists, for one, to support the Islamist claim of large-scale settlement by non-State subjects. Nor is it clear just why putting up prefabricated restrooms for pilgrims will increase environmental threat. The fact is large numbers of Kashmir residents see India as an existential threat. Part of the reason for these fears lies in a still-unfolding project to sharpen the ideological boundaries of Islam in Kashmir, which cast Hinduism as a predatory threat. In the first decades of the 20th century, Jammu and Kashmir saw the emergence of a new middle class that vied with traditional Muslim leaders for power. New forms of Islam, which privileged text over tradition, were used to legitimise their claims to speak for Kashmir’s Muslims. One major development was the arrival in Kashmir of the Jamaat Ahl-e-Hadis, a religious order that was set up by the followers of Sayyid Ahmad of Rai Bareilly. Ahmad died at Balakote, now in Pakistan-administered Kashmir, in 1831 while waging an unsuccessful jihad against Maharaja Ranjit Singh’s kingdom — a campaign that, historian Ayesha Jalal reminds us in her new book Partisans of Allah, still fires the imagination of a number of Muslims in South Asia. Ahl-e-Hadith ideologues like clerics Siddiq Hasan Khan and Nazir Husain rejected the accommodation Islam in India had made with its environment. Sayyed Hussain Shah Batku, a Delhi seminary student who carried the Ahl-e-Hadis message to Kashmir in 1925, denounced the key practices of mainstream Islam in the State such as worship of shrines and veneration of relics. Along with his followers, Anwar Shah Shopiani, Ghulam Nabi Mubaraki and Sabzar Khan, Batku attacked traditionalists for following practices tainted by their Hindu heritage like the recitation of litanies before namaz. Not surprisingly, Batku came under sustained attack from traditionalist clerics, who charged him with being an apostate, an infidel and even the Dajjal — or devil incarnate. His response was to cast himself as a defender of the faith, railing against heterodox sects such as the Ahmadis and the Shia, Hindu revivalists and Christian missionaries, all of whom he claimed were working to expel Islam from Kashmir. Despite its limited popular reach, the Ahl-e-Hadis had enormous ideological influence. As historian Chitralekha Zutshi has pointed out in her work on the making of religious identity in the Kashmir Valley, Languages of Belonging, the “influence of the Ahl-e-Hadith on the conflicts over Kashmiri identities cannot be overemphasised.” While the reflexive media association of the Ahl-e-Hadis and terror groups like the Lashkar-e-Taiba can be misleading — the head of the Srinagar unit of the crack counter-terrorist Special Operations Group is also an adherent — there is little doubt that the vision of Islam it propagated prepared the ground for the rise of the Jamaat-e-Islami and modern jihadists. Hindutva helped the Islamist project along. Decades of pogroms — most recently in Gujarat — gave credence to claims that Muslims are not safe in India. Kashmiri Muslim students and businessmen often encounter discrimination, which has made them acutely conscious of the variance between the promise and practice of India’s secularism. Many of those fighting on Srinagar’s streets have been wearing jeans and sporting sunglasses: middle-class young people who venerate capitalism, but have found in Islamism a medium for their rage at being denied entry at the gates to the earthly paradise it promises. On a visit to New Delhi soon after Independence, Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah candidly underlined the relationship between politics in Kashmir and Indian communalism. “There isn’t a single Muslim in Kapurthala, Alwar or Bharatpur,” he said, noting that “some of these had been Muslim-majority States.” Kashmiri Muslims, he concluded, “are afraid that the same fate lies ahead for them as well.” When Vishwa Hindu Parishad leader Praveen Togadia threatens to cut off food supplies to Kashmir in reprisal for the Shrine Board agitation, it is this fear he feeds. In coming weeks, efforts to arrive at a political compromise on the Shrine Board issue may help still the violence. Whatever arrangement is arrived at, though, will do little to bridge the deepening fault-lines between Kashmir and India and between Hindus and Muslims. In and outside of Kashmir, this will serve communalists well. While Mr. Geelani and Mr. Togadia may be enemies, the fact is they are enemies with the same cause. From kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 2 02:46:31 2008 From: kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk (Kashmir Affairs) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 21:16:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] [Reader-List] Amarnath Yatra: an article from the Hindu In-Reply-To: <034701c8db9d$956e2070$3ffebd48@taraprakash> Message-ID: <816324.20603.qm@web27804.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Praveen forgot to mention the 1986 'riots' that are widely believed to be engineered by Congress under the leadership fo Mufti Mohammad Sayeed. Half a dozen temples and homes of Pandits were attacked and property ransacked. This formed the reason for the Congress to call off support to the minority Gull Shah government and thus call for new elections under Rajiv-Farooq Accord. Murtaza Shibli --- On Tue, 1/7/08, TaraPrakash wrote: From: TaraPrakash Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Reader-List] Amarnath Yatra: an article from the Hindu To: "sarai list" Date: Tuesday, 1 July, 2008, 6:12 PM The main culprits behind the crisis in J&K are the PDP and the congress party. The interest of Congress in polarizing the voters in to the herds listening to the shepherds like Togadias and Geelanis is understandable. It takes away the media's focus from economy to Kashmir. Having said the obvious I am pasting an article from Hindu on the same issue. Piety, paranoia, and Kashmir’s politics of hate Praveen Swami -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why have so many people become willing to sacrifice their lives just because pilgrims might be temporarily housed in land on an extent of four cricket stadia? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Back in 1912, Maqbool Shah Kraalwari published the Greeznama, an extended lament about the irreligious character of the Kashmiri peasantry: “They regard the mosque and the temple as equal, seeing no difference between muddy puddles and the ocean, They know not the sacred, honourable or the respectable.” Less than a century on, the landscape Kraalwari described has disappeared. For the past fortnight, Jammu and Kashmir has been scorched by communal conflagration of a scale and intensity that have taken many by surprise. Hundreds have been injured; four people have died. Although Islamist-led mob violence has often been seen in recent years — the 2006 protests against a prostitution scandal and last summer’s attacks on couples in Srinagar are cases in point — the dispute over permission granted to Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board (SASB) to build temporary accommodation for pilgrims on 39.88 hectares of forest land brought more people on to the streets than at any point since the early years of Jammu and Kashmir’s long jihad. For the most part, commentators have cast the conflict as the outcome of the former Governor S.K. Sinha’s aggressive advocacy of Hindu chauvinist interests, the search of the secessionist for an emotive cause, and the opportunism of major political parties. All these explanations are correct. None of them, though, fully explains why so many have become willing to sacrifice their lives just because pilgrims might temporarily be housed on land just large enough to accommodate four cricket stadia. “It is like worship,” Islamist patriarch Syed Ali Shah Geelani recently said of the anti-India political campaign he leads, “like the recitation of the Kalima [profession of faith], like the offering of namaz, like the paying of Zakat [charity], like the performance of Haj.” For Mr. Geelani and his Tehreek-i-Hurriyat, the anti-Shrine Board protests are a crucible in which piety and xenophobic paranoia can be forged into a programme of resistance to India. At a June 23 meeting in Srinagar, Mr. Geelani explained the importance of the SASB issue. He charged General Sinha with working to “alter the demographic character of our State.” “I caution my nation that if we do not wake up now, India and its stooges will succeed and we will lose our land forever.” Evidence of the threat, Mr. Geelani told a rally earlier on June 20, was abundant. He pointed to recent cases of sexual violence and kidnapping of children. “Such crimes were unheard of in the Valley but the day the number of outsiders increased, the crime rate here also went up.” Moreover, Mr. Geelani said, outsiders were “promoting their own polytheistic culture” in alliance with the Indian state. Asking Kashmir residents to neither employ nor provide accommodation to outsiders, he asked migrant workers to “leave Kashmir peacefully.” Mr. Geelani’s rantings — none of which would have been unfamiliar to Hindutva leaders in Maharashtra — were of a piece with Kashmiri Islamists’ long-standing xenophobia. In the decades after independence, scholar Yoginder Sikand tells us, Jamaat-e-Islami leaders believed that an “Indian conspiracy was at work to destroy the Islamic identity of the Kashmiris.” It was alleged that “the government of India had dispatched a team to Andalusia, headed by the Kashmiri Pandit [politician and State Home Minister] D.P. Dhar, to investigate how Islam was driven out of Spain and to suggest measures as to how ish experiment could be repeated in Kashmir.” Resistance to this imagined plot often exploded into violence. In May 1973, an Anantnag college student discovered an encyclopaedia containing a drawing of archangel Gabriel dictating the Koran to Prophet Muhammed — an image that, in some readings of Islam, is blasphemous. Protesters demanded that the author be hanged: “A vain demand,” Katherine Frank has wryly noted, “since Arthur Mee had died in England in 1943.” India proscribed the sale of the out-of-print book, but four died in rioting. Politicians often drank at these communal wellsprings. At a March 4, 1987 rally in Srinagar, Muslim United Front candidates, clad in the white robes of the pious, declared that Islam could not survive under the authority of a secular state. MUF leaders built their campaign around protesting the sale of liquor and laws that proscribed cow slaughter — represented as threats to the authentic Muslim character of Kashmir. Fears of religious-ethnic annihilation have again surfaced. Writing in the Srinagar-based Rising Kashmir, Khalid Wasim Hassan asserted that “India is now openly following a policy aimed at changing the demography of Kashmir.” India hoped that “settling non-State subjects is going to have its impact on the discourse of the self-determination movement and the end result of [an eventual] plebiscite [sic.]”. Islamists aren’t the only ones advancing such arguments. Senior Congress leader Ghulam Rasool Kar, writing in the Urdu-language Khidmat, claimed that the purpose of the land transfer was to reduce the Muslim majority to a minority. Notably, the leadership for many of the mobs involved in the recent violence has come from local-level workers of pro-India parties, not Islamists. In Ganderbal and Anantnag, for example, the National Conference leveraged the issue to attack the People’s Democratic Party. Competitive communalism Few of the arguments against the land use rights granted to SASB stand on firm empirical foundations. No evidence exists, for one, to support the Islamist claim of large-scale settlement by non-State subjects. Nor is it clear just why putting up prefabricated restrooms for pilgrims will increase environmental threat. The fact is large numbers of Kashmir residents see India as an existential threat. Part of the reason for these fears lies in a still-unfolding project to sharpen the ideological boundaries of Islam in Kashmir, which cast Hinduism as a predatory threat. In the first decades of the 20th century, Jammu and Kashmir saw the emergence of a new middle class that vied with traditional Muslim leaders for power. New forms of Islam, which privileged text over tradition, were used to legitimise their claims to speak for Kashmir’s Muslims. One major development was the arrival in Kashmir of the Jamaat Ahl-e-Hadis, a religious order that was set up by the followers of Sayyid Ahmad of Rai Bareilly. Ahmad died at Balakote, now in Pakistan-administered Kashmir, in 1831 while waging an unsuccessful jihad against Maharaja Ranjit Singh’s kingdom — a campaign that, historian Ayesha Jalal reminds us in her new book Partisans of Allah, still fires the imagination of a number of Muslims in South Asia. Ahl-e-Hadith ideologues like clerics Siddiq Hasan Khan and Nazir Husain rejected the accommodation Islam in India had made with its environment. Sayyed Hussain Shah Batku, a Delhi seminary student who carried the Ahl-e-Hadis message to Kashmir in 1925, denounced the key practices of mainstream Islam in the State such as worship of shrines and veneration of relics. Along with his followers, Anwar Shah Shopiani, Ghulam Nabi Mubaraki and Sabzar Khan, Batku attacked traditionalists for following practices tainted by their Hindu heritage like the recitation of litanies before namaz. Not surprisingly, Batku came under sustained attack from traditionalist clerics, who charged him with being an apostate, an infidel and even the Dajjal — or devil incarnate. His response was to cast himself as a defender of the faith, railing against heterodox sects such as the Ahmadis and the Shia, Hindu revivalists and Christian missionaries, all of whom he claimed were working to expel Islam from Kashmir. Despite its limited popular reach, the Ahl-e-Hadis had enormous ideological influence. As historian Chitralekha Zutshi has pointed out in her work on the making of religious identity in the Kashmir Valley, Languages of Belonging, the “influence of the Ahl-e-Hadith on the conflicts over Kashmiri identities cannot be overemphasised.” While the reflexive media association of the Ahl-e-Hadis and terror groups like the Lashkar-e-Taiba can be misleading — the head of the Srinagar unit of the crack counter-terrorist Special Operations Group is also an adherent — there is little doubt that the vision of Islam it propagated prepared the ground for the rise of the Jamaat-e-Islami and modern jihadists. Hindutva helped the Islamist project along. Decades of pogroms — most recently in Gujarat — gave credence to claims that Muslims are not safe in India. Kashmiri Muslim students and businessmen often encounter discrimination, which has made them acutely conscious of the variance between the promise and practice of India’s secularism. Many of those fighting on Srinagar’s streets have been wearing jeans and sporting sunglasses: middle-class young people who venerate capitalism, but have found in Islamism a medium for their rage at being denied entry at the gates to the earthly paradise it promises. On a visit to New Delhi soon after Independence, Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah candidly underlined the relationship between politics in Kashmir and Indian communalism. “There isn’t a single Muslim in Kapurthala, Alwar or Bharatpur,” he said, noting that “some of these had been Muslim-majority States.” Kashmiri Muslims, he concluded, “are afraid that the same fate lies ahead for them as well.” When Vishwa Hindu Parishad leader Praveen Togadia threatens to cut off food supplies to Kashmir in reprisal for the Shrine Board agitation, it is this fear he feeds. In coming weeks, efforts to arrive at a political compromise on the Shrine Board issue may help still the violence. Whatever arrangement is arrived at, though, will do little to bridge the deepening fault-lines between Kashmir and India and between Hindus and Muslims. In and outside of Kashmir, this will serve communalists well. While Mr. Geelani and Mr. Togadia may be enemies, the fact is they are enemies with the same cause. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> __________________________________________________________ Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 10:06:44 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:06:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Reader-List] Amarnath Yatra: an article from the Hindu In-Reply-To: <816324.20603.qm@web27804.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <034701c8db9d$956e2070$3ffebd48@taraprakash> <816324.20603.qm@web27804.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807012136h712be768g4c6478a02e3a6f82@mail.gmail.com> Hello Murtaza , Since you belong to the region where the 86 riots happened against Kashmiri Hindus, i wonder how you have arrived at only "half a dozen " temples and homes of Kashmiri Hindus being attacked. You know the truth, which you seem to have conveniently fabricate. Pawan On 7/2/08, Kashmir Affairs wrote: > > Praveen forgot to mention the 1986 'riots' that are widely believed to be > engineered by Congress under the leadership fo Mufti Mohammad Sayeed. Half a > dozen temples and homes of Pandits were attacked and property ransacked. > This formed the reason for the Congress to call off support to the minority > Gull Shah government and thus call for new elections under Rajiv-Farooq > Accord. > Murtaza Shibli > > --- On Tue, 1/7/08, TaraPrakash wrote: > From: TaraPrakash > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Reader-List] Amarnath Yatra: an article from > the Hindu > To: "sarai list" > Date: Tuesday, 1 July, 2008, 6:12 PM > > The main culprits behind the crisis in J&K are the PDP and the congress > party. The interest of Congress in polarizing the voters in to the herds > listening to the shepherds like Togadias and Geelanis is understandable. It > takes away the media's focus from economy to Kashmir. > > Having said the obvious I am pasting an article from Hindu on the same > issue. > > Piety, paranoia, and Kashmir's politics of hate > > Praveen Swami > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Why have so many people become willing to sacrifice their lives just > because > pilgrims might be temporarily housed in land on an extent of four cricket > stadia? > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Back in 1912, Maqbool Shah Kraalwari published the Greeznama, an extended > lament about the irreligious character of the Kashmiri peasantry: > > "They regard the mosque and the temple as equal, > > seeing no difference between muddy puddles and the ocean, > > They know not the sacred, honourable or the respectable." > > Less than a century on, the landscape Kraalwari described has disappeared. > For the past fortnight, Jammu and Kashmir has been scorched by communal > conflagration > of a scale and intensity that have taken many by surprise. Hundreds have > been injured; four people have died. > > Although Islamist-led mob violence has often been seen in recent years — > the > 2006 protests against a prostitution scandal and last summer's attacks on > couples > in Srinagar are cases in point — the dispute over permission granted to > Shri > Amarnathji Shrine Board (SASB) to build temporary accommodation for > pilgrims > on 39.88 hectares of forest land brought more people on to the streets than > at any point since the early years of Jammu and Kashmir's long jihad. > > For the most part, commentators have cast the conflict as the outcome of > the > former Governor S.K. Sinha's aggressive advocacy of Hindu chauvinist > interests, > the search of the secessionist for an emotive cause, and the opportunism of > major political parties. All these explanations are correct. None of them, > though, fully explains why so many have become willing to sacrifice their > lives just because pilgrims might temporarily be housed on land just large > enough > to accommodate four cricket stadia. > > "It is like worship," Islamist patriarch Syed Ali Shah Geelani recently > said > of the anti-India political campaign he leads, "like the recitation of the > Kalima [profession of faith], like the offering of namaz, like the paying > of > Zakat [charity], like the performance of Haj." > > For Mr. Geelani and his Tehreek-i-Hurriyat, the anti-Shrine Board protests > are a crucible in which piety and xenophobic paranoia can be forged into a > programme > of resistance to India. At a June 23 meeting in Srinagar, Mr. Geelani > explained the importance of the SASB issue. He charged General Sinha with > working > to "alter the demographic character of our State." "I caution my nation > that > if we do not wake up now, India and its stooges will succeed and we will > lose > our land forever." > > Evidence of the threat, Mr. Geelani told a rally earlier on June 20, was > abundant. He pointed to recent cases of sexual violence and kidnapping of > children. > "Such crimes were unheard of in the Valley but the day the number of > outsiders increased, the crime rate here also went up." Moreover, Mr. > Geelani said, > outsiders were "promoting their own polytheistic culture" in alliance with > the Indian state. Asking Kashmir residents to neither employ nor provide > accommodation > to outsiders, he asked migrant workers to "leave Kashmir peacefully." > > Mr. Geelani's rantings — none of which would have been unfamiliar to > Hindutva leaders in Maharashtra — were of a piece with Kashmiri Islamists' > long-standing > xenophobia. In the decades after independence, scholar Yoginder Sikand > tells > us, Jamaat-e-Islami leaders believed that an "Indian conspiracy was at work > to destroy the Islamic identity of the Kashmiris." It was alleged that "the > > government of India had dispatched a team to Andalusia, headed by the > Kashmiri > Pandit [politician and State Home Minister] D.P. Dhar, to investigate how > Islam was driven out of Spain and to suggest measures as to how ish > experiment > could be repeated in Kashmir." > > Resistance to this imagined plot often exploded into violence. In May 1973, > an Anantnag college student discovered an encyclopaedia containing a > drawing > of archangel Gabriel dictating the Koran to Prophet Muhammed — an image > that, in some readings of Islam, is blasphemous. Protesters demanded that > the author > be hanged: "A vain demand," Katherine Frank has wryly noted, "since > Arthur > Mee had died in England in 1943." India proscribed the sale of the > out-of-print > book, but four died in rioting. > > Politicians often drank at these communal wellsprings. At a March 4, 1987 > rally in Srinagar, Muslim United Front candidates, clad in the white robes > of > the pious, declared that Islam could not survive under the authority of a > secular state. MUF leaders built their campaign around protesting the sale > of > liquor and laws that proscribed cow slaughter — represented as threats to > the authentic Muslim character of Kashmir. > > Fears of religious-ethnic annihilation have again surfaced. Writing in the > Srinagar-based Rising Kashmir, Khalid Wasim Hassan asserted that "India is > now > openly following a policy aimed at changing the demography of Kashmir." > India hoped that "settling non-State subjects is going to have its impact > on > the > discourse of the self-determination movement and the end result of [an > eventual] plebiscite [sic.]". Islamists aren't the only ones advancing such > > arguments. > Senior Congress leader Ghulam Rasool Kar, writing in the Urdu-language > Khidmat, claimed that the purpose of the land transfer was to reduce the > Muslim > majority to a minority. > > Notably, the leadership for many of the mobs involved in the recent > violence > has come from local-level workers of pro-India parties, not Islamists. In > Ganderbal > and Anantnag, for example, the National Conference leveraged the issue to > attack the People's Democratic Party. > > Competitive communalism > > Few of the arguments against the land use rights granted to SASB stand on > firm empirical foundations. No evidence exists, for one, to support the > Islamist > claim of large-scale settlement by non-State subjects. Nor is it clear just > why putting up prefabricated restrooms for pilgrims will increase > environmental > threat. > > The fact is large numbers of Kashmir residents see India as an existential > threat. Part of the reason for these fears lies in a still-unfolding > project > to sharpen the ideological boundaries of Islam in Kashmir, which cast > Hinduism as a predatory threat. In the first decades of the 20th century, > Jammu and > Kashmir saw the emergence of a new middle class that vied with traditional > Muslim leaders for power. New forms of Islam, which privileged text over > tradition, > were used to legitimise their claims to speak for Kashmir's Muslims. > > One major development was the arrival in Kashmir of the Jamaat Ahl-e-Hadis, > a religious order that was set up by the followers of Sayyid Ahmad of Rai > Bareilly. > Ahmad died at Balakote, now in Pakistan-administered Kashmir, in 1831 while > waging an unsuccessful jihad against Maharaja Ranjit Singh's kingdom — a > campaign > that, historian Ayesha Jalal reminds us in her new book Partisans of Allah, > still fires the imagination of a number of Muslims in South Asia. > Ahl-e-Hadith > ideologues like clerics Siddiq Hasan Khan and Nazir Husain rejected the > accommodation Islam in India had made with its environment. > > Sayyed Hussain Shah Batku, a Delhi seminary student who carried the > Ahl-e-Hadis message to Kashmir in 1925, denounced the key practices of > mainstream Islam > in the State such as worship of shrines and veneration of relics. Along > with > his followers, Anwar Shah Shopiani, Ghulam Nabi Mubaraki and Sabzar Khan, > Batku attacked traditionalists for following practices tainted by their > Hindu heritage like the recitation of litanies before namaz. Not > surprisingly, > Batku came under sustained attack from traditionalist clerics, who charged > him with being an apostate, an infidel and even the Dajjal — or devil > incarnate. > His response was to cast himself as a defender of the faith, railing > against > heterodox sects such as the Ahmadis and the Shia, Hindu revivalists and > Christian > missionaries, all of whom he claimed were working to expel Islam from > Kashmir. > > Despite its limited popular reach, the Ahl-e-Hadis had enormous ideological > influence. As historian Chitralekha Zutshi has pointed out in her work on > the > making of religious identity in the Kashmir Valley, Languages of Belonging, > the "influence of the Ahl-e-Hadith on the conflicts over Kashmiri > identities > cannot be overemphasised." While the reflexive media association of the > Ahl-e-Hadis and terror groups like the Lashkar-e-Taiba can be misleading — > the > head of the Srinagar unit of the crack counter-terrorist Special Operations > Group is also an adherent — there is little doubt that the vision of Islam > it propagated prepared the ground for the rise of the Jamaat-e-Islami and > modern jihadists. > > Hindutva helped the Islamist project along. Decades of pogroms — most > recently in Gujarat — gave credence to claims that Muslims are not safe in > India. > Kashmiri Muslim students and businessmen often encounter discrimination, > which has made them acutely conscious of the variance between the promise > and > practice of India's secularism. Many of those fighting on Srinagar's > streets > have been wearing jeans and sporting sunglasses: middle-class young people > who venerate capitalism, but have found in Islamism a medium for their rage > at being denied entry at the gates to the earthly paradise it promises. > > On a visit to New Delhi soon after Independence, Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah > candidly underlined the relationship between politics in Kashmir and Indian > communalism. > "There isn't a single Muslim in Kapurthala, Alwar or Bharatpur," he said, > > noting that "some of these had been Muslim-majority States." Kashmiri > Muslims, > he concluded, "are afraid that the same fate lies ahead for them as well." > > When Vishwa Hindu Parishad leader Praveen Togadia threatens to cut off food > supplies to Kashmir in reprisal for the Shrine Board agitation, it is this > fear > he feeds. In coming weeks, efforts to arrive at a political compromise on > the Shrine Board issue may help still the violence. Whatever arrangement is > arrived > at, though, will do little to bridge the deepening fault-lines between > Kashmir and India and between Hindus and Muslims. In and outside of > Kashmir, > this > will serve communalists well. While Mr. Geelani and Mr. Togadia may be > enemies, the fact is they are enemies with the same cause. > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > __________________________________________________________ > Not happy with your email address?. > Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now > at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From pkray11 at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 11:52:05 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 11:52:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SC on Nandy Case Message-ID: <98f331e00807012322n3a36f307m30ec422c0a855f87@mail.gmail.com> "What has he written? Why should he be prosecuted for what he has written? We do not find it objectionable. He is 71 years old. Let him live in peace." -The vacation bench comprising Justices Altamas Kabir and G S Singhvi said while ordering all authorities in Gujarat not to arrest the reputed political scientist in connection with the case. From pkray11 at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 11:52:05 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 11:52:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SC on Nandy Case Message-ID: <98f331e00807012322n3a36f307m30ec422c0a855f87@mail.gmail.com> "What has he written? Why should he be prosecuted for what he has written? We do not find it objectionable. He is 71 years old. Let him live in peace." -The vacation bench comprising Justices Altamas Kabir and G S Singhvi said while ordering all authorities in Gujarat not to arrest the reputed political scientist in connection with the case. From iram at sarai.net Wed Jul 2 12:01:15 2008 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 12:01:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Re: Amaranth Yatra - Sonia Jabbar's response In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <486B20B3.1040205@sarai.net> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: > Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra > From: > "S. Jabbar" > Date: > Tue, 01 Jul 2008 10:17:30 +0530 > To: > Shuddhabrata Sengupta , > > To: > Shuddhabrata Sengupta , > CC: > sarai list > > > > Dear All, > > Whether overt statements have been made against the pilgrims or not, the > point is this protest over the land transfer to the SASB has been > communalized from the beginning. As I pointed out in my article the PDP > communalized the issue the moment it raked up the Muslim areas in Rajouri & > Poonch and pitted it against 'Hindu' Jammu. > > The fires were further stoked when the Hurriyat came out on the streets > claiming a demographic change, not over the environment. This is dangerous > and brings out the worst in the Kashmiris, whether the chauvinism is > religious or regional. Sajad Lone crowed that this has demonstrated the > monolithic identity of the Kashmiris. That this so called unity is achieve= > d > through manipulating xenophobic sentiments is appalling. > > A couple of years ago the presence of the poorest Bihari migrants during th= > e > summer months who are either plumbers and carpenters or labourers was > similarly made into an 'issue'. When the Biharis fled the violence the > Kashmiris found there was no one to harvest their fields they were forced t= > o > reconsider their position. Now Bihari migrants are welcome, as are Bengali > brides who are married off to men too old to find second wives among > Kashmiri women. The Hizb, concerned by the trend that would obviously lead > to miscegenation, tried to stop this practice but failed. The trafficking > of poor Muslim women from Bangladesh, Bengal, Assam, Gujarat and Andhra goe= > s > on unchecked because it suits all parties, never mind the slow demographic > change. > > Of course individuals have come out and organized langars and sheltered > pilgrims who have been stranded. But so have individuals through the worst > communal riots from Partition to the Sikh riots and even Gujarat, but that > tells us only that some individuals have always resisted the call from thei= > r > community to gang up against the 'other,' and nothing about the 'othering' > itself. In a laudable move Geelani came out with the statement that they > are not against the pilgrimage. But let us not be na=EFve. The yatra > represents lucre as does the tourist season through the summer months. The > separatists for the last 8 years have tried to strike a balance between > agitprop politics and a constituency that wants business from the > 'outsiders.' Is there any link between the reports of complaints by the > tourism industry of 70% cancellations and the scaling down of rhetoric? I > won't be surprised. > > In the meanwhile the BJP wants to make this a 'national' issue, tying the > hands of the Congress that now cannot rescind the land transfer order for > fear of violence around the country ... And I want out from this madhouse. > > -sj > > > On 7/1/08 6:18 AM, "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" wrote: > > > Dear Rahul, > > Why is it naiive to believe that tens of thousands of protestors > > would take to the streets for environmental reasons? Are you trying > to say > >> that tens of thousands of protestors do not turn up on the >> > streets for > >> environmental reasons? As far as I know, tens of >> > thousands of protestors > >> routinely protested in the Narmada Valley for >> > environmental reasons, on > >> several occasions, across several years. >> > Why should Kashmir be > >> different? >> > > Having said that, I would like to underscore that I am not for a > > moment making a categorical statement, either way, about the > sincerity of > >> the sudden display of 'ecological consciousness' by >> > elements within the > >> Kashmiri separatist constiuency, or within any >> > other segment in the Kashmiri > >> political spectrum today. I have no way >> > of gauging the sincerity of these > >> entities when it comes to >> > environmental issues. No one has any means of > >> gauging their >> > insincerity either. I am, in fact, not interested in sitting > >> on >> > judgement on whether the protestors are 'sincere' or not. I can see > > why there should be protests. And if there are protests, I think they > ought > >> not be dismissed on the basis of speculations about the >> > purported > >> 'sincerity' of the protestors. >> > > Furthermore, there is nothing that > >> demonstrates to me that a >> > sentiment against a change in the demographic > >> profile of a region is >> > identical to a sentiment against Hindu pilgrims. No > >> one has said >> > anything either implcitly, or explicitly about pilgrims. I will > >> come >> > to my take on the question of 'demographic shifts' later. > > Pilgrims are > >> transients. They do not settle and change the >> > demographic profile of a > >> place. The protests are against the transfer >> > of land. The transfer of land > >> can legitimately raise the suspicion >> > that permanent structures will be build > >> on that land, (why else argue >> > for a change in the status of the owner of the > >> land). It is clear >> > that the permanence of these structures does not have any > >> relation to >> > the duration or necessities of the traditional 'Pilgrimage > >> Season' in >> > Amarnath. It may be remembered, that even at the height of the > > Kashmir insurgency, when some groups had sought to attack the > Amarnath > >> pilgrims, the Hizbul Mujahideen, the largest and most >> > significant armed > >> Kashmiri secessionist outfit, issued statements >> > against any attempts to > >> attack Amarnath pilgrims. >> > > The Action Committee Against Land Transfer, the > >> organization co >> > ordinating the Anti land Transfer movement in Kashmir has > > categorically stated that it has nothing against pilgrims or the > pilgrimage > >> to Amarnath. >> > > None of this amounts, in my book, to an adequate amount of > > circumstantial evidence for 'sentiments' against pilgrims. Would it > not be > >> better if we saw the reality of this anger against the pattern >> > of the > >> forcible acquisition of land by state agencies in Kashmir. >> > > Let me conclude by > >> saying that I do not think that anything done on >> > 38.99 acres of land can > >> amount to a demographic shift. And those who >> > (in Kashmir) , even within the > >> Action Committee Against Land Transfer >> > are talking about a 'demographic > >> shift' with reference to the >> > Amarnath issue are pursuing a red herring. > >> There is a real issue of >> > the forcible acquisition of land by agencies of the > >> state and the >> > armed forces in Jammu and Kashmir, that is much wider in terms > >> of its >> > ramifications than the single issue of Amarnath alone. > > I for one, do > >> not think that the presence of Bangladeshi immigrants >> > in say, Assam, needs > >> to be attacked because it represents the threat >> > of a demographic shift to > >> some people. There are good reasons why in >> > some parts of India (in J&K under > >> article 370 and under the Fifths >> > Schedule of the Constitution in certain > >> notified tribal areas in >> > different parts of the country) non aborigionals or > >> non-state >> > subjects (in the case of J&K) are barred from acquiring landed > > property. These have to do with the histories of disposession and > land > >> alienation in these areas. But that does not mean that such >> > people (non > >> aboriginals and non state subjects) cannot live in these >> > areas. To state > >> that would be to confuse lived practices of >> > habitation with the ownership > >> of property, and to confuse the >> > category of the citizen with the reality of > >> the denizen. >> > > best > > Shuddha > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at > >> CSDS >> > Raqs Media=20 > >> Collective >> > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 14:24:27 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 14:24:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70806302147ua7b6912l204a51fdc6a4d3cb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807010154y3f9631ebn88b5cb7fe9fd530a@mail.gmail.com> ".........................In the blue-print of 'New Kashmir', the land reforms were envisaged as a key to freeing the peasantry from the thraldom of feudalism acting as an obstacle in their onward march to freedom from exploitation and abject poverty. Designed to create a support-base in the Muslim peasantry of Kashmir, the National Conference leadership slyly presented the Hindus as the only section possessing enormous landed property, which was many leagues away from truth. In the province of Kashmir, if there were some Hindu landlords, there were equally Muslim landlords who were more ruthless in their treatment of the Muslim tenants, ever tightening their noose on them only to reduce them to abysmal depths of want and deprivation. The Muslim cruelty heaped on the Muslim tenants was never highlighted by the National Conference leaders, who stoutly opposed the Kisan Sabha organised by Late Pandit Prem Nath Bazaz under the leadership of Abdul Salam Yatu.3 Reasons for this might have been political, but the fact remains that the Radical Humanists working under the overall guidance and leadership of Shree Bazaz were the first to focus on the problems confronting the Muslim peasantry of Kashmir. The Muslim leadership of the National Conference aroused hatred against the Kashmirian Hindus, who, as per them, were the oppressors of the Muslims. It never focussed on the extraordinary precedent set by Pandit Jia Lal Tamiri,4 a top freedom fighter known for his proverbial honesty and Pandit Durga Prashad Dhar,5 a central minister, who had given their ancestral lands to their tenants much before land reforms were enacted and implemented in the State. Have the Muslims of Kashmir to offer such a unique example standing comparison to the one set by two bright sons of the Kashmirian Hindu community......................." On 7/1/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > > Come on, Pawan, the Land to the Tiller movement was not directed against > the > Pandits only. It affected, equally, rich Muslim landlords, many of whom > were so-called Pirs. This gave fillip to the bakras who were then strongly > supported by wealthy Muslims. Thus the class divide between the shers & the > bakras. > > > On 7/1/08 10:17 AM, "Pawan Durani" wrote: > > > Shuddha , > > I hope you have an idea of how land belonging to Kashmiri Hindus > > were handed > over to muslims in Kashmir under the garb of land reforms . > > I > > know that is very convenient for you to ignore ... > > Pawan > > > On 6/30/08, > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > That > > is your opinion, not a substantiated fact. As far as I have seen, > > there has > > not been a single statement made against Hindu pligrims by anyone > > in the > > leadership or the constituency of the movement against land transfer > > in > > Kashmir. And until such a statement is made, we cannot say that it > arises> > > out of a 'resentment towards hindu pligrims'. People across the spectrum > of > > > > political opinion in Kashmir have taken pains to point out that they > welcome > > > > pilgrims. And the question of the acquisition of land has nothing to do > with > > > > pilgrims. There is a long history of arbitrary acquisition and occupation > of > > > > land, including orchards, schools, meadows, pastures, grazing comons and > > > > private homes in Kashmir, especially by the Armed Forces and > paramilitaries, > > > > it is possible that the movement we see crystallizes the pent up feeling > of > > > > anger against this long history of land acquisition. > > > > > > An audit of the > > impact of land acquisition on the ecology and social fabric > > of Kashmir (on > > both sides of the line of control) is still pending. > > > > > > best > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > On 30-Jun-08, at 9:24 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Dear > > Shuddha , > > > > > > > > While I may trust your belief in ecological fallout , i > > completely disagree > > with your understanding that the issue is not about the > > resentment towards > > hindu pligrims. > > > > > > > > It is all about that , non > > tolerance towards so called hindus or what they > > love to > > call...."Kufr". > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/30/08, Shuddhabrata > > Sengupta wrote: > >> > >> Dear Pawan, > >> > >> > >> Just because a > > terrain does not have trees, or that the altitude it is > >> located in happens > > to be above the treeline, does not mean that it is not > >> ecologically > > sensitive. > >> > >> Often, it is precisely terrain of this nature, such as for > > instance is at > >> the vicinity of the mouth of the Gomukh glacier above > > Gangotri,(again above > >> the treeline) that is extremely fragile and needs > > very careful nurturing. > >> > >> > >> I know for a fact that the ecosystem of the > > Gomukh glacial region is very > >> badly threatened because of the completely > > haphazard way in which access to > >> this region (and the logistics of > > pilgrimage and tourism) has been managed. > >> I can very easily see that > > something similar can happen in the case of > >> Amarnath. > >> > >> > >> I would urge > > you not to make the discussion of this question into a > >> 'Hindu' question. It > > is not one, it is about the way in which State managed, > >> so called, 'Temple > > Development Boards', enter into schemes to grab land, and > >> about the > > ecological consequences of their land-grabbing propensities. > >> > >> > >> You > > might recall that some months back you tried to pose the question of > >> the > > building of a shipping canal between India and Sri Lanka as a matter of > >> > > hurting Hindu sentiments. I endorsed your opposition to the so called > >> > > 'Sethu-Samudram Shipping Channel' scheme, because to me it represented a > >> > > threat to a fragile marine ecosystem, not on the basis of its alleged > > injury > >> to Hindu sentiments. I also pointed out to you and to others on the > > list > >> that the protectors of Hindutva, while proposing a Panama Canal > > style > >> waterway cutting through the apex of the Deccan peninsula as an > > alternative > >> to the 'Sethu-Samudram' plan were also proposing what was > > certainly a > >> blueprint for an ecological disaster. > >> > >> > >> Opposition to > > the proposed (and now rescinded) land grab proposal by the > >> SASB in the > > Amarnath case does not automatically translate into partisanship > >> across the > > Hindu-Muslim question in Kashmir. Those who translate it as such, > >> whether > > they are Hindu, or Muslim, are needlessly confusing a > >> straightforward > > matter by bringing their own secterian biases to bear on the > >> issue. No one > > should be misled by such attempts at confusion. > >> > >> > >> best > >> > >> > >> > > Shuddha > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 30-Jun-08, at 4:44 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> > >> > > Hello Shuddha , > >> > >> > >> Lemme just inform everyone that , the land may have > > belonged to Forest > >> > >> Department , but there is no single tree over > > there. > >> > >> > >> Even when you reach Amarntah , there are no trees over there , > > becuase of > >> > >> high altitude. > >> > >> > >> I visited the site, Baltal , two > > years back. > >> > >> > >> Unfortunately the issue is not about ecology ..... the > > way it has been > >> > >> treated is a pure indicator that anything related to > > Hindus is not > >> tolerable > >> > >> in Kashmir, and proves once again that it is > > not "freedom" but Islamic > >> > >> fanaticism which rules the shot in > > Kashmir. > >> > >> > >> > >> Pawan > >> > >> > >> > >> On 6/30/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > wrote: > >> > >> > >> Dear Sonia, Dear Rashneek, dear > > all, > >> > >> > >> Thank you, Sonia and Rashneek for the debate on the Amarnath > > Yatra > >> > >> issue. The question of temple boards and their closeness to > > power, > >> > >> and their lust for acquiring forest lands is not unique to > > Kashmir. > >> > >> It also happens, as you will see below, (see the report - > > Sabarimala: > >> > >> The Faith in Spate, by K.A. Shaji) in distant Kerala. The > > ruling left > >> > >> front government in Kerala is as involved in this game as > > anyone > >> > >> else, because 'Temple Boards' are gold-mines and no state > > government > >> > >> wants to close an operation that earns them the gold that can > > be > >> > >> mined in these gold mines. I am appending below a report on the > >> > >> > > question of the Sabarimala Temple boards desire for even more > >> > >> reserved > > forest land. The story is remarkably resonant of the > >> > >> Amarnath issue. A > > local, highly culturally specific, syncretic > >> > >> pilgrimage turning into the > > road-show of a revivalist 'Hinduism', > >> > >> with lucrative revenue > > spin-offs. > >> > >> > >> I live in an area in Delhi where I have witnessed every > > year, for the > >> > >> past few years - 'Chalo Amarnath Chalo' (Let's go to > > Amarnath) > >> > >> posters and banners being put up by local RSS functionaries. > > And > >> > >> there are active fundraising drives which culminate in a cavalcade > > of > >> > >> Tata Sumos with the local 'Youth' blaring 'bhajans' from their > >> > >> > > booming auto-sound systems taking off to go do 'darshan' of the > >> > >> melting > > lingam. I don't think they (the Sumo Pilgrims of my > >> > >> neighbourhood) > > really care whether or not the forests of Kashmir go > >> > >> up in > > smoke. > >> > >> > >> I also know that the Sabarimala pilgrimage has been twisted > > out of > >> > >> shape in a similar way, both by Hindutva enthusiasts, and > > by > >> > >> construction contractors close to the ruling Left Front. > > Fragile > >> > >> forests can barely sustain the burden of so much sudden > > faith. > >> > >> > >> Incidentally, revivalist Hindus are by no means alone in > > their > >> > >> disregard for the local heritage and environment. The ruling > >> > >> > > dispensation in Saudi Arabia has effectively turned the pilgrimage > >> > >> sites > > of Mecca and Medina into an air-conditioned cultural wasteland. > >> > >> it has > > systematically destroyed shrines that were considered holy by > >> > >> millions > > of Muslim pilgrims, especially from South Asia, and > >> > >> completely > > transformed the intricate urban fabric of Mecca and > >> > >> Medina. There is a > > long history of protest, including in India, by > >> > >> Muslims against the way > > in which the Saudi Government, in cohorts > >> > >> with the Wahabi establishment > > has wrecked the topography of Mecca and > >> > >> Medina. Similarly, the Israeli > > state's policy of expansion, through > >> > >> settlements, and building high > > security segregated roads that cut > >> > >> through the west bank of the Jordan > > river are often camouflaged under > >> > >> an appeal to scriptural sanction for > > 'Greater' or 'Eretz' Israel. > >> > >> There is a great deal of money to be made > > in pilgrimage, and it > >> > >> affords everybody an opportunity to make some > > quick transformations > >> > >> of the landscape in the name of 'infrastructure > > development' and > >> > >> 'settlement' , both of which are euphemisms for > > speculation in real > >> > >> estate. > >> > >> > >> I am also appending a detailed > > report on the environmental impact of > >> > >> what was proposed by the erstwhile > > governor Gen (Retd) Sinha of Jammu > >> > >> and Kashmir for the Amarnath Yatra by > > Gautam Navlakha that appeared > >> > >> recently in the website of a journal > > called Kashmir Affairs. Finally, > >> > >> it is not my case that the acquisition > > of land for the Amarnath Board > >> > >> (SASB) is wrong, and the acquisition of > > land for the so-called > >> > >> 'Mughal Road', which has been pointed out by > > Aditya Raj Kaul, in a > >> > >> recent post is wrong. Both are equally disastrous > > from the > >> > >> environmental point of view. And the silence of political > > formations > >> > >> (of all persuasions) on the environmental impact of the > > revived > >> > >> Mughal Road and their recent discovery of environmentalism (in > > the > >> > >> case of the Amarnath land transfer issue) does make their > > commitment > >> > >> to environmentalism somewhat suspect. The PDP's stance > > is > >> > >> particularly hypocritical, as the original decision has been > > ratified > >> > >> by its own minister, (for Forest) in the (Indian Held) J&K > > state > >> > >> government. Still, even if the commitment of all the protagonists > > is > >> > >> suspect, I must say that I have rarely seen a popular movement > >> > >> > > reverse a state-driven decision on an 'environmental' issue, and the > >> > >> > > recent success of the agitation in Kashmir (whatever be the motives > >> > >> that > > impelled it) which has resulted in a reversal of the Land > >> > >> Transfer issue > > is something to be grateful for. > >> > >> > >> These are issues that need to be > > seen quite separately from secterian > >> > >> concerns. I hope this debate can > > help us see them in that way. > >> > >> > >> best > >> > >> > >> Shuddha > >> > >> > > ------------------- > >> > >> > >> 1. Sabarimala: The Faith in Spate > >> > >> by K A > > Shaji > >> > >> > >> http://www.boloji.com/society/115.htm > >> > >> > >> Legend has it > > that when Lord Ayyappa set out to seek solitude, he > >> > >> settled upon > > Sabarimala. Its sylvan surroundings and undulating > >> > >> terrain had made it > > an ideal retreat for the bachelor god. The > >> > >> pristine monsoon forests had > > wrapped like an ornament around his > >> > >> hermitage at the top of the hill. > > The Lord believed to have called > >> > >> the area with tranquil atmosphere as > > his poonkavanam (sacred forest). > >> > >> > >> A shrine inside the forest and a > > deity who chose the calm ambience of > >> > >> hills and valleys has few parallels > > in the country and outside. But > >> > >> now, it seems, all of the glories of > > Sabarimala were a thing of the > >> > >> past. When mythology meets present-day > > reality, Sabarimala is no more > >> > >> a chosen abode of the hermit God. During > > January-February each year, > >> > >> more than 50 million devotees, as claimed by > > the temple authorities, > >> > >> are thronging this forest temple for annual > > pilgrimage, putting the > >> > >> fragile ecology of the region under severe > > stress. Now, the holy hill > >> > >> is a synonym of increasing inflow of > > pilgrims, inadequate > >> > >> infrastructure, a devastated environment and a > > hapless wildlife. > >> > >> > >> While the entire hill and the adjacent river Pampa, > > the third largest > >> > >> river in Kerala, are stinking due to sewage pollution > > and > >> > >> accumulation of garbage, the situation is not much different in > > the > >> > >> administrative and spiritual circles of the hill shrine. First, > > it > >> > >> was a controversy involving Kannada film actress Jayamala and a > > group > >> > >> of orthodox Hindus, who questioned her claim of touching the idol > > of > >> > >> the bachelor god defying the barricades meant for preventing > > sexually > >> > >> active women from entering the hill shrine. Then one of the > > highly > >> > >> revered traditional priests of the temple was robbed of a > > large > >> > >> amount of money and gold ornaments during his visit to the house > > of a > >> > >> woman engaged in flesh trade by a mafia gang. And now, it is the > > turn > >> > >> of aged father of a senior priest to allege that his son is > > under > >> > >> influence of a powerful Ezhava community leader with shadowy > > nature > >> > >> and the leader's followers are using his son to pocket the > > temple > >> > >> money. In the meantime, the Left Front Government has disbanded > > the > >> > >> existing administrative body of the temple citing corruption at > > high > >> > >> level and is preparing to enact a legislation to keep the > > corrupt > >> > >> community leaders out of the administrative body > > forever. > >> > >> > >> On monetary grounds, the temple is the third largest in the > > country, > >> > >> standing very close to Tirupathi and Guruvayur. The > > cash-strapped > >> > >> Kerala Government, despite its leftist moorings, is > > depending very > >> > >> much on the income from the temple to meet salary needs > > of its > >> > >> employees. In order to increase the revenue, the successive > >> > >> > > governments and the so-called proponents of development are > >> > >> vociferous > > of implementing multi-crore construction plans in > >> > >> Sabarimala clearing > > forests and building a concrete jungle in its > >> > >> place. But nobody in the > > spiritual and administrative levels of the > >> > >> temple as well as the > > government establishment are apprehensive of > >> > >> the increasing level of > > pollution and the extreme level of > >> > >> deforestation. Their focus is > > entangled only in the growing number of > >> > >> controversies and the > > commissions to be available after the beginning > >> > >> of the construction > > work. > >> > >> > >> Located about 467 metres above sea level, the Sabarimala temple > > is > >> > >> surrounded by 18 hills and situated inside Periyar Tiger Reserve, > > one > >> > >> of the few safe havens for tigers in the country. According to > > bird > >> > >> watcher B.Sethumadhavan, as many as 2000 species of flowering > > plants, > >> > >> endemic and medicinal, have been identified among the region's > > flora. > >> > >> `` About 63 species of mammals, some of them endangered like > > tigers, > >> > >> elephants and lion tailed macaque live here. So far, 223 species > > of > >> > >> birds and 45 species of reptiles including King Cobra have been > >> > >> > > identified in this area,'' he said. The ever- expanding number of > >> > >> > > pilgrims and mindless construction works are posing severe threat to > >> > >> > > their very survival. Devotees of a Lord, who believed to have loved > >> > >> the > > flora and fauna and their safekeeping, are now on a rampage in > >> > >> the name > > of development forcing the wildlife to move out of their > >> > >> traditional > > habitat. > >> > >> > >> As per legends, the vehicle of Lord Ayyappa is tiger. > > But, > >> > >> astonishingly, neither the tiger nor the surrounding > > evergreen > >> > >> forests do not come in the list of priorities before the > > |Travancore > >> > >> Devaswam Board, which administers the shrine. ``There was an > > increase > >> > >> of 35 per cent in revenue while comparing with last year during > > the > >> > >> November-December period. In the number of visitors, the increase > > is > >> > >> of 19 per cent. These figures show the need for immediate > >> > >> > > developmental works in Sabarimala. But there are agencies like Forest > >> > >> > > Department which cry for tigers and forests,'' alleges G.Raman Nair, > >> > >> > > outgoing president of the board. > >> > >> > >> However, environmentalists and > > forest officials are countering the > >> > >> allegation. ``The development works > > so far at Pampa have made it > >> > >> impossible a soul-filling holy dip in river > > Pampa. At least, two > >> > >> scientific studies conducted by Government's own > > agencies had found > >> > >> that landslips and tremors would take place at the > > holy hillock any > >> > >> time largely because of the extensive concrete flooring > > at the temple > >> > >> premises. The devaswam is only interested in money making. > > It has no > >> > >> concern for the impending dangers for both nature and > > devotees,'' > >> > >> pointed out Sumesh Mangalassery, a member of the > > environmental group > >> > >> Kabani. > >> > >> > >> According to Sumesh, a panel of > > Kerala Legislature on environment led > >> > >> by RSP leader A V Thamarakshan had > > submitted 32 proposals to the > >> > >> Devaswam Board to protect Sabarimala > > around five years back. But none > >> > >> of them were acceptable to the board. > > Even the suggestions of Kerala > >> > >> State Pollution Control Board to minimise > > the pollution of river > >> > >> Pampa were paid scant regard by the board. A > > visit by Tehelka to > >> > >> Sabarimala found that river Pampa continues to > > remain the main victim > >> > >> of the callous attitude of the authorities. It > > gets choked in the > >> > >> temple area as solid waste including human excreta; > > plastic bags, > >> > >> empty water bottles and coconut husks block the free flow > > of water. > >> > >> About 35 million people took a holy dip in the river between > > November > >> > >> and January, which is the major source of drinking water for > > three > >> > >> districts. > >> > >> > >> According to a study by the pollution control > > board, the total > >> > >> coliform count recorded at the river portion close to > > Sabarimala is > >> > >> about 1,14,000 per 100 millilitres (ML) during the peak > > of > >> > >> pilgrimage. Just before the pilgrimage season, it is merely 380 > > per > >> > >> 100 ml- well below the permissible limits of 500 per 100 ml. > >> > >> > > According to local people, the overflow of human faeces from sceptic > >> > >> > > tanks around the temple stands the major reason of the pollution of > >> > >> the > > river. ``More than 3,000 temporary toilets are functioning close > >> > >> to the > > temple in addition to about 600 permanent toilets. The > >> > >> capacity of the > > sewerage treatment plant is very limited,'' pointed > >> > >> out K.Anirudhan of > > Sabarimala Samrakshana Samithy. > >> > >> > >> Most of the experts, who had > > conducted studies on the pollution and > >> > >> environmental problems prevailing > > in Sabarimala, point to the need of > >> > >> regulating the ever- increasing > > number of pilgrims. ``Sabarimala is > >> > >> bursting at the seams with millions > > of devotees now. Thirty or forty > >> > >> years ago, only around 50,000 pilgrims > > visited the temple. Today, the > >> > >> number is fifty million and is rising at > > the rate of 20 per cent > >> > >> every year. The ever-swelling flow resulted in a > > major mishap on > >> > >> January 14, 1999, when 100 pilgrims died in a stampede > > at the site. > >> > >> Indications are that Sabarimala is a disaster waiting to be > > happen,'' > >> > >> warns noted Kerala based environmentalist P K Uthaman. > > According to > >> > >> him, almost two thousand tonnes of human waste are > > deposited in crude > >> > >> earth pits and outside in Sabarimala every year. > > These wastes are > >> > >> finding their way into not only the river Pampa but > > also to river > >> > >> Periyar by underground as well as over ground rivulets, > > posing a > >> > >> threat great health hazard for the pilgrims as well as those > > living > >> > >> downstream. > >> > >> > >> In addition, the lack of post pilgrimage > > cleaning drives often result > >> > >> in unabated flow of hazardous waste into > > the rivers. The temple area > >> > >> has already been converted into a concrete > > jungle where guesthouses > >> > >> and other structures are constructed > > haphazardly all around. They are > >> > >> meant for temple officials, priests, > > VVIPs and police personnel. > >> > >> According to M.Gopal, a pilgrim from > > Bangalore who visited Sabarimala > >> > >> this year, human excreta and plastic > > waste were found strewn just > >> > >> outside the Sannidhanam (the main building > > of the temple). As per > >> > >> data available from forest department, over 2.5 > > lakh empty plastic > >> > >> bottles of packaged water were collected from inside > > the tiger > >> > >> reserve. The number of tetra packs collected would come around > > 4.5 > >> > >> lakh. The temple complex of the hermit, who believed in > > renunciation > >> > >> of earthly attractions, is now filled with commercial shops > > selling > >> > >> products ranging from gold ornaments to dress materials. All > > these > >> > >> shops were constructed by clearing forests. > >> > >> > >> ``The total > > time available for darsan as of now is a total of 1431 > >> > >> hours, i.e. > > 515160 seconds. If a darsan goes on one at a time basis > >> > >> and a devotee > > gets a second, the total strength of the pilgrims can > >> > >> only be 5,15, 160 > > per year. If ten people could somehow cluster > >> > >> together per second for > > darsan, the maximum number would be > >> > >> 51,51,600,'' points out a document > > prepared by |School of Social > >> > >> Sciences at Mahatma Gandhi University on > > behalf of Kerla Forest > >> > >> Department. The document also questions the > > claims of the board that > >> > >> over 50 million people visit the temple > > annually. But anyway, the > >> > >> number of pilgrims' visting Sabarimala is many > > times more than its > >> > >> capacity. > >> > >> > >> ``The authorities must find out > > some mechanism to regulate the > >> > >> alarming increase in the number of > > pilgrims. Sabarimala is not only > >> > >> an environmental but also a social > > disaster,'' opined Dr.Rajan > >> > >> Gurukkal of School of Social Sciences. Now a > > day, the uncontrolled > >> > >> flow of pilgrims from various entry points is > > resulting in people > >> > >> swarming all around the protected sanctuary leading > > to man ­animal > >> > >> conflicts. Recently, an elephant trampled upon one > > pilgrim. Then it > >> > >> was found that the pilgrims were sleeping in the > > corridor used by the > >> > >> elephants for going to the river to drink water at > > the night. A large > >> > >> number of such corridors were already disrupted due > > to the > >> > >> construction works undertaken in the recent past. > >> > >> > >> > > According to Sedumadhavan, the authorities are even paying scant > >> > >> > > attention on the safety of pilgrims. As many as 12,000 litres of > >> > >> diesel > > are being stored just above the sannidhanam without any > >> > >> storage licence > > or safety parameters. They are also keeping a large > >> > >> number of crackers > > near the sanctum sanctoram without any safety > >> > >> concern. The only solution > > on the part of Trvancore Devaswom Board > >> > >> for all problems plaguing > > Sabarimala is denudation of nearby forests > >> > >> and setting up new amenities. > > According to Rajan Gurukkal, such an > >> > >> attempt would be disastrous as all > > the existing problems of > >> > >> Sabarimala can be viwed as the after effect of > > deforestation. > >> > >> > >> The devaswam board has already ruined about 55.09 ha > > of forestland in > >> > >> the name of sabarimala development. In the opinion > > of > >> > >> environmentalists, they demand more forests to cut and smuggle > > out > >> > >> precious trees and construction of further concrete strctures > > with > >> > >> ulterior motives. Maintaining the sanctity of the shrine and > > the > >> > >> precious eco-system never appeared a priority before them. So > > far, > >> > >> the devaswam board was constituted once in five years by > > nomination > >> > >> of people with no administrative acumen at the behest of > > successive > >> > >> governments. > >> > >> > >> Rajan Gurukkal and his team at School > > of Social Sciences have > >> > >> prepared a long-term action plan for saving > > Sabarimala from the > >> > >> sequence of disasters in the offing. But the lobbies > > of corrupt and > >> > >> communal elements are not allowing the devaswam to look > > into them. > >> > >> Even the small step of Left Government in disbanding the > > existing > >> > >> devaswam committee is being interpreted as an attempt by > > atheists to > >> > >> interfere in Hindu religious matters. The move by left > > government to > >> > >> appoint experts in place of politicians at the board also > > facing > >> > >> opposition from Sangh Parivar organisations, who claim as > > custodians > >> > >> of Hindu places of worship. > >> > >> > >> The board and its > > corrupt administrators were not able to get their > >> > >> hand on the forest so > > far due to stringent central acts and Supreme > >> > >> Court rulings. But even > > the outgoing members are repeating their old > >> > >> slogan of `no development > > in Sabarimala would be possible without > >> > >> deforestation.' Unless the > > authorities change their attitude from a > >> > >> revenue-centred approach to a > > pilgrim centred aprach, there is not > >> > >> much hope. But they still repeat > > that development (read > >> > >> deforestation) could not be stopped for the sake > > of a few birds and > >> > >> animals. ``The board had neither faith in > > environmental protection > >> > >> nor in religious sanctity,'' opines Rajan > > Gurukkal. > >> > >> > >> Decongestion of base town Pampa by increasing facilities at > > a > >> > >> relatively distant town of Nilakkal, demolition of unauthorised > >> > >> > > concrete structures at Sannidhanam and Pampa, cleaning of the river, > >> > >> > > better waste disposal facilities and provisions of basic facilities > >> > >> for > > pilgrims without affecting ecology are the urgent needs of > >> > >> Sabarimala. > > The tigers and elephants must be protected. > >> > >> > >> If there is no mechanism > > to check the number of pilgrims, that would > >> > >> increase to two to three > > crores within years. Moderate elements among > >> > >> the Hindu community are > > favouring a statutory body for Sabarimala in > >> > >> line with > > Tirumala-Thirupathy Devasthanam and Amarnath temple. Such a > >> > >> body > > consisting of experts from different fields can change the > >> > >> course of > > priorities of the forest temple. > >> > >> > >> > >> ----------- > >> > >> > >> 2. Amarnath > > Yatra: The Pilgrimage to Eco Disaster > >> > >> Gautam Navlakha > >> > >> > > http://www.kashmiraffairs.org/gautam_amarnath%20yatra.html > >> > >> > >> Should one > > question the propriety of promoting pilgrimage in a > >> > >> ecologically fragile > > area or wink at it in the name of devotees right > >> > >> to free movement and > > worship? This question comes to mind when > >> > >> looking at Amarnath Yatra > > especially the phenomenal increase in the > >> > >> number of pilgrims. This > > increase is not of few hundred or few > >> > >> thousand but runs into hundreds of > > thousands. There has been a > >> > >> doubling of the period for pilgrimage from > > one month to two this year > >> > >> as well as forty times increase in number of > > pilgrims, from 12,000 in > >> > >> 1989 to 450,000 in 2005 (this year it is set to > > cross 500,000) are > >> > >> cause for concern. In fact the actual period is > > longer because a > >> > >> fortnight before the official yatra is reserved for > > army men and > >> > >> their families to visit the Amarnath cave through > > ecologically more > >> > >> vulnerable Baltal route. Moreover, in order to provide > > security for > >> > >> pilgrims who come out in large number, the paramilitary > > forces have > >> > >> to be deployed in large number. The current deployment will > > be in > >> > >> excess of 20,000 for the entire period. Their presence and > > stay > >> > >> cannot but affect the rise in pollution levels. Inclement weather > > too > >> > >> is an issue because rains in the plain means snow in the > > higher > >> > >> reaches. This results in crowding at the camps, straining > > services > >> > >> including disposal of waste. But worse things can happen as in > > 1996 > >> > >> when unexpected heavy snowfall resulted in death of 243 pilgrims > > and > >> > >> injuries to hundred more due to avalanche. > >> > >> > >> The State > > Pollution Control Board (SPCB), recently in a 37 page > >> > >> report warns that > > generation of waste by pilgrims, absence of waste > >> > >> disposal sites, open > > dumping of garbage, air pollution, sewage > >> > >> generated by hotels, yatri > > camps and local residential areas makes > >> > >> its way into Lidder river. The > > SPCB warned that waste generated by > >> > >> pilgrims more than the local average > > and primarily contains plastics, > >> > >> polythene and leftover food packets all > > along the route. According to > >> > >> their calculation 55,000 kgs of plastic > > waste is generated every day > >> > >> during the pilgrimage. Besides, thousands > > of open toilets erected > >> > >> along the banks of Lidder river ensures that > > effluents enter the > >> > >> river. Thousands of vehicles ply up and down the > > mountains around > >> > >> Pahalgam all the way up to Chandanwari spewing carbon > > monoxide. The > >> > >> Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB), which came into > > existence on > >> > >> February 21, 2001, has been dismissive of such claims. They > > assert > >> > >> that 230 pre-fabricated toilets being raised in Nunwan base camp > > and > >> > >> human waste disposal off in leach pits with micro-organism > > technology > >> > >> using Bokaslin powder and other chemicals would take care of > > the > >> > >> problem. However, the issue is more than the supposedly > > effective > >> > >> modern methods to manage waste. The sheer presence of large > > mass of > >> > >> people is a cause for concern. Department of Science and > > technology > >> > >> through its principal investigator on glaciology has argued > > that "the > >> > >> ecology, the environment and health of the glacier can be > > under > >> > >> severe threat in case the Baltal route to the Holy Cave was > >> > >> > > frequented by thousands of pilgrims". And pointed out that "depletion > >> > >> > > and degradation (of glaciers) are the result of human breath, refuse > >> > >> and > > land erosion". (The Tribune July 5, 2005). > >> > >> > >> It is disconcerting to > > note that opening of Baltal route for pilgrims > >> > >> on foot and those using > > helicopters has crossed several thousand > >> > >> every day. Apart from the > > Department of Science and Technology of J&K > >> > >> government even the Nitish > > Sengupta committee, which was constituted > >> > >> to look into the deaths of 243 > > pilgrims in 1996 due to the snowstorm, > >> > >> had recommended that number of > > yatris be restricted to 5000 per day > >> > >> for a period of one month and the > > total number of pilgrims be capped > >> > >> at1.5 lakhs. According to them Baltal > > route should allow 1500 > >> > >> pilgrims and Pahalgam 3500 per day. However, the > > General JR Mukherjee > >> > >> committee, which looked into the cause of death of > > 35 people, due to > >> > >> cross fire, during the 2000 yatra, focussed on > > security arrangement > >> > >> and wanted the duration of the yatra to increase as > > security scenario > >> > >> improved. But neither report looked at the > > environmental impact of > >> > >> the yatra. Thus when the SASB invokes the > > recommendations of the two > >> > >> committees what it does is to use it > > selectively and link the number > >> > >> of pilgrims to the issue of managing > > security for them. In this sense > >> > >> they underplay the question whether the > > eco-system can bear heavy > >> > >> influx of pilgrims. This emphasis on > > encouraging larger number of > >> > >> pilgrims shows its impact on the > > environment in unexpected ways. Such > >> > >> as the SASB contemplating "air > > conditioning" to preserve the shiva > >> > >> lingam from melting. The recent > > controversy over the pilgrims > >> > >> alleging that the SASB has been > > constructing the "snow lingam" is now > >> > >> being passed off as due to change > > in the course of the water channels > >> > >> after last year's earthquake and > > global warming. Without ruling this > >> > >> out human contribution to this > > phenomenon cannot be ignored when > >> > >> glaciers are rapidly receding. As a > > matter of fact yatra was never > >> > >> undertaken in June precisely because > > formation of shiva lingam does > >> > >> not always take place then. Incidentally > > the local people speak of > >> > >> "human" intervention in restoring what is a > > natural phenomenon, as > >> > >> something that has happened in the past too. This > > apart large number > >> > >> of pilgrims means that going gets tough as one draws > > close to the > >> > >> cave with traffic jam being the order of the day. At times > > pilgrims > >> > >> have to wait for hours for their turn. Increase in dust in > > atmosphere > >> > >> too is caused by crowds of people as well as helicopter > > service. The > >> > >> dust raised is visible from long distance away. All this > > also means > >> > >> that individual pilgrims, that is other than VIPs, are > > disallowed > >> > >> from spending more than seconds inside the cave. Above all > > carbon > >> > >> dioxide levels shoot up warming the area all around. > >> > >> > >> It > > cannot be that the SASB is unaware of the environmental concerns. > >> > >> If it > > receives short shrift it is because the yatra has come to > >> > >> symbolise > > Indian government's determination to promote its claim in > >> > >> J&K. That > > pilgrimage is being heralded as victory against a movement > >> > >> demanding > > azadi from India is available in the news portal of Indian > >> > >> government, > > Press Information Bureau. It says that "yearning for > >> > >> moksha (salvation) > > can move the devotees to the challenging heights > >> > >> of Kashmir and will be > > a fitting gesture of solidarity with our > >> > >> valiant soldiers who have been > > fighting the enemy to defend our > >> > >> borders". > > (pib.nic.in/feature/feo799/f1507992.html). Thus what is > >> > >> otherwise merely > > a religious pilgrimage of the Hindus has been > >> > >> elevated to represent a > > patriotic enterprise. Besides, the SASB is > >> > >> headed by the Governor and > > his principal secretary is the CEO of the > >> > >> SASB. Thus the Government of > > India is clearly in charge of organising > >> > >> the yatra. And it is the SASB > > which has been pushing for larger and > >> > >> larger numbers of pilgrims and > > challenging the right of the state > >> > >> government from interfering in anyway > > with the schedule announced by > >> > >> the SASB. > >> > >> > >> It is true that not > > everyone who goes to Amarnath accepts this > >> > >> association of religion with > > patriotism. But the fact of the matter > >> > >> is that official perception of > > pilgrimage as patriotic duty has > >> > >> allowed the communal fascist elements > > to join in organising their > >> > >> supporters. Little wonder that frequency of > > conflict between section > >> > >> of such 'pilgrims' and local population due to > > their obnoxious > >> > >> behaviour has shown an increase. What is equally > > disconcerting is > >> > >> that the SASB presided over by the Governor has also > > been engaged in > >> > >> controversial transactions. The CEO of SASB is the > > principal > >> > >> secretary to the Governor. Present CEO's wife, in her capacity > > of > >> > >> Principal secretary forest department granted permission to SASB > > on > >> > >> May 29, 2005 to use forest land. But this provision was not in > >> > >> > > accordance with the provision of J&K Forest Conservation Act 1997 > >> > >> and, > > therefore, the state government withdrew the order. However, > >> > >> thanks to a > > stay order by a division bench of the J&K High Court the > >> > >> withdrawal of > > permission to occupy forest land, was suspended. Any > >> > >> visitor to Pahalgam > > can observe how this forest land is being cleared > >> > >> to setup camps for the > > yatris. In fact now the SASB has asked the > >> > >> state government to give them > > land in the radius of 5kms of the cave. > >> > >> This arouses local passions > > precisely because Indian security forces > >> > >> and other entities have > > transferred large tracts of land to house > >> > >> camps for security force > > personnel, or for central projects, as well > >> > >> as for schools which are run > > by army among others. Even a pro-Indian > >> > >> National Conference party has > > protested such transfers of land since > >> > >> 1989. Not very far from the camp > > for the pilgrims in Pahalgam, in > >> > >> Lidru (opposite Kulan village) what > > locals describe as one of the > >> > >> finest meadows, spread over 550 kanals > > (one kanal=one eighth of acre) > >> > >> in area, has been given to the army to > > run a school! Local population > >> > >> feels helpless at being unable to stop > > this. Therefore, when SASB > >> > >> wants large tract of land transferred to it > > under the claim of > >> > >> providing accommodation for lakhs of pilgrims it must > > be weighed > >> > >> against this local concern. Were the numbers of pilgrims to > > be > >> > >> brought down the pressing need for transferring large areas to > > SASB > >> > >> or for providing carpet security and thus deployment of force, can > > be > >> > >> brought down. > >> > >> > >> This apart the SASB has also been involved in > > other controversial > >> > >> acts. One such was the recent attempt by the SASB to > > bring down the > >> > >> involvement of local people in the yatra. When on June 5, > > 2006 the > >> > >> local pro-India Peoples' Democratic Party (PDP) claimed that > > SASB was > >> > >> ignoring livelihood of locals, the SASB countered by claiming > > that > >> > >> such criticism would generate controversy and thus > > "jeopardise" > >> > >> tourism in Kashmir. Quite apart from the fact that > > promotion of > >> > >> pilgrimage for commerce flies in the face of proclaimed > > concern for > >> > >> people's faith PDP pointed out that if local porters and > > ponywallahs > >> > >> can strike work at Vaishnodevi Shrine against the > > (mis)management of > >> > >> the Shri Vaishnodevi Shrine Board (SVDSB) and seek > > support from local > >> > >> Congress leaders then what is wrong if local people > > from Pahalgam and > >> > >> Kangan areas seek their help to protest against the > > practises of SASB > >> > >> which discriminate against them. In fact the Pithoo > > Workers Union at > >> > >> Katra have protested the suspension of six of their > > leaders, alleged > >> > >> manhandling by SVDSB officials and demanded recall of > > its additional > >> > >> CEO. Neither the Governor as head of SVDSB nor the Board > > issued any > >> > >> statement chastising the Congress party! > >> > >> > >> Arguably, > > when yatra was halted between 1991-96 due to threat of > >> > >> section of the > > militants it played into the hands of the extreme > >> > >> right wing elements in > > Indian society who have since then become an > >> > >> integral part of mobilising > > large numbers of pilgrims. Thus a form of > >> > >> competitive communalism came > > into play. Thus when section of the > >> > >> militants represented earlier by > > Harkatul Ansar and now Lashkar-e- > >> > >> Taiyyaba or Jaish-e-Mohammed threaten > > to disrupt the pilgrimage it > >> > >> only gets the backs up of the devout Hindus > > opens them to vitriol of > >> > >> the rabidly anti-Muslim Vishwa Hindu Parishad > > (VHP), Shiv Sena etc. > >> > >> and accentuates the communal divide. However, it > > is equally important > >> > >> to note the actual fact that more people have died > > in yatra due to > >> > >> inclement weather and cross fire than at the hands of > > the militants. > >> > >> Besides, the main indigenous militant organisation Hizbul > > Mujahideen > >> > >> has always supported the yatra and has consistently > > demonstrated its > >> > >> opposition towards those who have tried to disrupt the > > yatra. > >> > >> Moreover, prior to constituting SASB the state government, > > local > >> > >> people and social activists provided aid and assistance to > > the > >> > >> pilgrims. However, threat of environmental damage has become a > > matter > >> > >> of utmost concern because the central government under the cover > > of > >> > >> SASB remains unrelenting in its pursuit of ever larger numbers > > to > >> > >> come for pilgrimage. > >> > >> > >> In a way the Amarnath yatra illustrates > > the way in which the Indian > >> > >> government injects communalism in our body > > politic. And also > >> > >> represents how secularism in India has been perverted > > to mean state > >> > >> patronage of religion/s. This patronage is not equitably > > distributed > >> > >> since Hindus outnumber others by more than eight times. > > Which is to > >> > >> say that between un-equals equality ends up promoting Hindu > > religious > >> > >> practises. In Amarnath yatra, in fact, the India government > > even > >> > >> discarded its pretended neutrality by publicising the yatra as > > a > >> > >> patriotic duty! Consequently, the likelihood of Amarnath > > pilgrimage > >> > >> getting mired in controversy, over environmental damage > > and > >> > >> eventually feeding into further alienation of people because they > > can > >> > >> do little to save damage to their lived environment, has > > increased. > >> > >> Trouble is the Indian government cares little for people and > > prefers > >> > >> to pander to the extreme rightwing by projecting the yatra as > > a > >> > >> patriotic enterprise to boost the morale of the Indian > > paramilitary > >> > >> forces. The very same force which the local population > > regards as > >> > >> symbol of their oppression. Thus a bigger mess is in the > > making right > >> > >> before our own eyes. > >> > >> --------------- > >> > >> > >> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >> > >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS > >> > >> Raqs Media > > Collective > >> > >> shuddha at sarai.net > >> > >> www.sarai.net > >> > >> > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > >> > >> > >> > >> > > _________________________________________ > >> > >> reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city. > >> > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > >> > > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > >> ... > >> > >> [Message clipped] > > > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > > > Raqs Media > > Collective > > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > > www.sarai.net > > > > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > re > > ader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & > > Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 00:44:26 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 00:44:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70806300414k66445bfai709f596b9ab8368d@mail.gmail.com> <63FC64B5-4517-42C5-BC2C-55E4FF5B4BDE@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70806300854w547d1e45v989f78a8954d4899@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690806301214r48051569j43fde01e47aeb586@mail.gmail.com> FYI http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=47599 The most famous of these pilgrimages is the Cave of Amar Nath which is an All-India Holy Place. People visit it from every corner of India. Mention of it occurs twice in the Raiatarangini (the history of Kashmir), first where the King Ram Deva is stated to have imprisoned the debauch King Sukh Deva and to have drowned him in the Lidder (Lambodheri) among the mountains of Amar Nath about 1,000 B.C., and a second time where King Sandimati (34 B.C. to 17 A.D.) is described as visiting the ice-lingam. A BRIEF HISTORY The Amarnath Cave is referred to in the Bhrngish Samhita, Nilmat Purana, Kal hana's Rajtarangini, and the Mahat mayas of Amarnatha and Amresh vara Kalpa. According to Kalhana's Rajtarangini, Samdi mat (34 BCE-17 CE), a great devotee of Shiva who rose from the position of minister to be the king of Kashmir, "used to worship a linga of snow above the forests, which is not found elsewhere in the world, during the delightful Kashmir summers". Kalhana also narrates the legend of Naga Surava, who gave his daughter Chan dralekha in marriage to a Brahmin youth and carved a place for him besides his own abode in Shushram Naga (Seshnag). Kalhana says, "It is seen to this day (ie, 1148-49) by pilgrims proceeding to Amareshvara (Amarnath)." The fact that Zain-ul-abdin (1420-70), the pious Muslim ruler of Kashmir, also visited Amarnath has been docu mented by his chronicler Jonaraja. Francois Bernier, the French physician who accompanied Emperor Aurangzeb to Kashmir in 1663, recorded that after visiting Trisandiya, Verinag, Achabal and Wular Lake, he was in Sind Valley when Aurangzeb called him back. He writes in Travels in Moghul Empire, "I was pursuing the journey to a grotta full of wonderful congealations, two days journey from Sangsafed when I received intelligence that my Nawab (Aurangzeb) felt very impatient and uneasy on account of my long absence." Bernier's book was edited by Vincent A Smith, who observes, "The grotta full of wonderful congealations is the Amarnath Cave, where blocks of ice stalagmites formed by dripping water from the roof are worshipped by many Hindoos… as images of Shiva." Vigne, in Travels in Kashmir, Ladakh and Iskardu (1842) says, "The ceremony at the cave of Amarnath takes place on the 15th of the Hindu month of Sawan, 28th July… not only Hindoos of Kashmir but those from Hindoostan of every rank and caste can be seen, collecting together and travelling up the valley of Lidder towards the celebrated cave." Vigne himself, after returning from Ladakh and Tibet by 1840-41, during the rule of Maharaja Sher Singh, son of Ranjit Singh, attempted to visit Amarnath along the traditional route via Seshnag in late season, but was forced to return from the Wawjan Pass due to bad weather. Walter R Lawrence mentions in Valley of Kashmir (1895) that Brahmins of Mattan joined the pilgrims to Amarnath and further up at Batkot, the Maliks used to take charge of the pilgrimage. Accord ing to Lawrence, the Maliks were sup posed to keep the track in order, guide and escort the pilgrims, carry the sick, and ensure nothing was stolen; they received one-third of the offerings made at the Amarnath shrine. The other two shares used to go to the Pandits of Mattan and the Giri Mahants of Amritsar, who used to and still lead the pilgrimage with Chhari Mubarak (Holy Mace), but now from Srinagar. During the Sikh rule in Kashmir, Amritsar was the starting point of the yatra but in the 1940s, pilgrims started embarking from Srinagar. The tradition of dividing the offerings into three has now been done away with. In the year 2000, the shrine was taken over by the state government and currently its affairs are managed by the Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board headed by the Governor of Jammu and Kashmir, with compensation awarded to the earlier beneficiaries. THE YATRA While proceeding to Amarnath, think of its rich history and legends. Was it not Shiva and Parvati themselves who first traversed the trek? Countless pilgrims, many of them great sages, have walked upon this path. Swami Vivekananda and Swami Ramtirath undertook the pilgrim age to Amarnath. A thousand years earlier, Adi Shankaracharya walked this way to see Shankara himself. Interestingly, VS Naipaul also went on the Yatra when he visited India, before writing his first book on the country. In his gripping account of the pilgrimage, he speaks of his joy and that of other pilgrims as they make their way to the cave. Now is your chance for a brush with sacred history. With best wishes Aditya Raj Kaul On 6/30/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > That is your opinion, not a substantiated fact. As far as I have > seen, there has not been a single statement made against Hindu > pligrims by anyone in the leadership or the constituency of the > movement against land transfer in Kashmir. And until such a statement > is made, we cannot say that it arises out of a 'resentment towards > hindu pligrims'. People across the spectrum of political opinion in > Kashmir have taken pains to point out that they welcome pilgrims. And > the question of the acquisition of land has nothing to do with > pilgrims. There is a long history of arbitrary acquisition and > occupation of land, including orchards, schools, meadows, pastures, > grazing comons and private homes in Kashmir, especially by the Armed > Forces and paramilitaries, it is possible that the movement we see > crystallizes the pent up feeling of anger against this long history > of land acquisition. > > An audit of the impact of land acquisition on the ecology and social > fabric of Kashmir (on both sides of the line of control) is still > pending. > > best > > Shuddha > > > > On 30-Jun-08, at 9:24 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Dear Shuddha , > > > > > > > > While I may trust your belief in ecological fallout , i completely > > disagree with your understanding that the issue is not about the > > resentment towards hindu pligrims. > > > > > > > > It is all about that , non tolerance towards so called hindus or > > what they love to call...."Kufr". > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/30/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > > > Just because a terrain does not have trees, or that the altitude it > > is located in happens to be above the treeline, does not mean that > > it is not ecologically sensitive. > > > > Often, it is precisely terrain of this nature, such as for instance > > is at the vicinity of the mouth of the Gomukh glacier above > > Gangotri,(again above the treeline) that is extremely fragile and > > needs very careful nurturing. > > > > > > > > I know for a fact that the ecosystem of the Gomukh glacial region > > is very badly threatened because of the completely haphazard way in > > which access to this region (and the logistics of pilgrimage and > > tourism) has been managed. I can very easily see that something > > similar can happen in the case of Amarnath. > > > > > > > > I would urge you not to make the discussion of this question into a > > 'Hindu' question. It is not one, it is about the way in which State > > managed, so called, 'Temple Development Boards', enter into schemes > > to grab land, and about the ecological consequences of their land- > > grabbing propensities. > > > > > > > > You might recall that some months back you tried to pose the > > question of the building of a shipping canal between India and Sri > > Lanka as a matter of hurting Hindu sentiments. I endorsed your > > opposition to the so called 'Sethu-Samudram Shipping Channel' > > scheme, because to me it represented a threat to a fragile marine > > ecosystem, not on the basis of its alleged injury to Hindu > > sentiments. I also pointed out to you and to others on the list > > that the protectors of Hindutva, while proposing a Panama Canal > > style waterway cutting through the apex of the Deccan peninsula as > > an alternative to the 'Sethu-Samudram' plan were also proposing > > what was certainly a blueprint for an ecological disaster. > > > > > > > > Opposition to the proposed (and now rescinded) land grab proposal > > by the SASB in the Amarnath case does not automatically translate > > into partisanship across the Hindu-Muslim question in Kashmir. > > Those who translate it as such, whether they are Hindu, or Muslim, > > are needlessly confusing a straightforward matter by bringing their > > own secterian biases to bear on the issue. No one should be misled > > by such attempts at confusion. > > > > > > > > best > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 30-Jun-08, at 4:44 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > >> Hello Shuddha , > >> > >> > >> > >> Lemme just inform everyone that , the land may have belonged to > >> Forest > >> > >> Department , but there is no single tree over there. > >> > >> > >> > >> Even when you reach Amarntah , there are no trees over there , > >> becuase of > >> > >> high altitude. > >> > >> > >> > >> I visited the site, Baltal , two years back. > >> > >> > >> > >> Unfortunately the issue is not about ecology ..... the way it has > >> been > >> > >> treated is a pure indicator that anything related to Hindus is not > >> tolerable > >> > >> in Kashmir, and proves once again that it is not "freedom" but > >> Islamic > >> > >> fanaticism which rules the shot in Kashmir. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Pawan > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 6/30/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> Dear Sonia, Dear Rashneek, dear all, > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Thank you, Sonia and Rashneek for the debate on the Amarnath Yatra > >>> > >>> issue. The question of temple boards and their closeness to power, > >>> > >>> and their lust for acquiring forest lands is not unique to Kashmir. > >>> > >>> It also happens, as you will see below, (see the report - > >>> Sabarimala: > >>> > >>> The Faith in Spate, by K.A. Shaji) in distant Kerala. The ruling > >>> left > >>> > >>> front government in Kerala is as involved in this game as anyone > >>> > >>> else, because 'Temple Boards' are gold-mines and no state government > >>> > >>> wants to close an operation that earns them the gold that can be > >>> > >>> mined in these gold mines. I am appending below a report on the > >>> > >>> question of the Sabarimala Temple boards desire for even more > >>> > >>> reserved forest land. The story is remarkably resonant of the > >>> > >>> Amarnath issue. A local, highly culturally specific, syncretic > >>> > >>> pilgrimage turning into the road-show of a revivalist 'Hinduism', > >>> > >>> with lucrative revenue spin-offs. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I live in an area in Delhi where I have witnessed every year, for > >>> the > >>> > >>> past few years - 'Chalo Amarnath Chalo' (Let's go to Amarnath) > >>> > >>> posters and banners being put up by local RSS functionaries. And > >>> > >>> there are active fundraising drives which culminate in a > >>> cavalcade of > >>> > >>> Tata Sumos with the local 'Youth' blaring 'bhajans' from their > >>> > >>> booming auto-sound systems taking off to go do 'darshan' of the > >>> > >>> melting lingam. I don't think they (the Sumo Pilgrims of my > >>> > >>> neighbourhood) really care whether or not the forests of Kashmir go > >>> > >>> up in smoke. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I also know that the Sabarimala pilgrimage has been twisted out of > >>> > >>> shape in a similar way, both by Hindutva enthusiasts, and by > >>> > >>> construction contractors close to the ruling Left Front. Fragile > >>> > >>> forests can barely sustain the burden of so much sudden faith. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Incidentally, revivalist Hindus are by no means alone in their > >>> > >>> disregard for the local heritage and environment. The ruling > >>> > >>> dispensation in Saudi Arabia has effectively turned the pilgrimage > >>> > >>> sites of Mecca and Medina into an air-conditioned cultural > >>> wasteland. > >>> > >>> it has systematically destroyed shrines that were considered holy by > >>> > >>> millions of Muslim pilgrims, especially from South Asia, and > >>> > >>> completely transformed the intricate urban fabric of Mecca and > >>> > >>> Medina. There is a long history of protest, including in India, by > >>> > >>> Muslims against the way in which the Saudi Government, in cohorts > >>> > >>> with the Wahabi establishment has wrecked the topography of Mecca > >>> and > >>> > >>> Medina. Similarly, the Israeli state's policy of expansion, through > >>> > >>> settlements, and building high security segregated roads that cut > >>> > >>> through the west bank of the Jordan river are often camouflaged > >>> under > >>> > >>> an appeal to scriptural sanction for 'Greater' or 'Eretz' Israel. > >>> > >>> There is a great deal of money to be made in pilgrimage, and it > >>> > >>> affords everybody an opportunity to make some quick transformations > >>> > >>> of the landscape in the name of 'infrastructure development' and > >>> > >>> 'settlement' , both of which are euphemisms for speculation in real > >>> > >>> estate. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I am also appending a detailed report on the environmental impact of > >>> > >>> what was proposed by the erstwhile governor Gen (Retd) Sinha of > >>> Jammu > >>> > >>> and Kashmir for the Amarnath Yatra by Gautam Navlakha that appeared > >>> > >>> recently in the website of a journal called Kashmir Affairs. > >>> Finally, > >>> > >>> it is not my case that the acquisition of land for the Amarnath > >>> Board > >>> > >>> (SASB) is wrong, and the acquisition of land for the so-called > >>> > >>> 'Mughal Road', which has been pointed out by Aditya Raj Kaul, in a > >>> > >>> recent post is wrong. Both are equally disastrous from the > >>> > >>> environmental point of view. And the silence of political formations > >>> > >>> (of all persuasions) on the environmental impact of the revived > >>> > >>> Mughal Road and their recent discovery of environmentalism (in the > >>> > >>> case of the Amarnath land transfer issue) does make their commitment > >>> > >>> to environmentalism somewhat suspect. The PDP's stance is > >>> > >>> particularly hypocritical, as the original decision has been > >>> ratified > >>> > >>> by its own minister, (for Forest) in the (Indian Held) J&K state > >>> > >>> government. Still, even if the commitment of all the protagonists is > >>> > >>> suspect, I must say that I have rarely seen a popular movement > >>> > >>> reverse a state-driven decision on an 'environmental' issue, and the > >>> > >>> recent success of the agitation in Kashmir (whatever be the motives > >>> > >>> that impelled it) which has resulted in a reversal of the Land > >>> > >>> Transfer issue is something to be grateful for. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> These are issues that need to be seen quite separately from > >>> secterian > >>> > >>> concerns. I hope this debate can help us see them in that way. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> best > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Shuddha > >>> > >>> ------------------- > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> 1. Sabarimala: The Faith in Spate > >>> > >>> by K A Shaji > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> http://www.boloji.com/society/115.htm > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Legend has it that when Lord Ayyappa set out to seek solitude, he > >>> > >>> settled upon Sabarimala. Its sylvan surroundings and undulating > >>> > >>> terrain had made it an ideal retreat for the bachelor god. The > >>> > >>> pristine monsoon forests had wrapped like an ornament around his > >>> > >>> hermitage at the top of the hill. The Lord believed to have called > >>> > >>> the area with tranquil atmosphere as his poonkavanam (sacred > >>> forest). > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> A shrine inside the forest and a deity who chose the calm > >>> ambience of > >>> > >>> hills and valleys has few parallels in the country and outside. But > >>> > >>> now, it seems, all of the glories of Sabarimala were a thing of the > >>> > >>> past. When mythology meets present-day reality, Sabarimala is no > >>> more > >>> > >>> a chosen abode of the hermit God. During January-February each year, > >>> > >>> more than 50 million devotees, as claimed by the temple authorities, > >>> > >>> are thronging this forest temple for annual pilgrimage, putting the > >>> > >>> fragile ecology of the region under severe stress. Now, the holy > >>> hill > >>> > >>> is a synonym of increasing inflow of pilgrims, inadequate > >>> > >>> infrastructure, a devastated environment and a hapless wildlife. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> While the entire hill and the adjacent river Pampa, the third > >>> largest > >>> > >>> river in Kerala, are stinking due to sewage pollution and > >>> > >>> accumulation of garbage, the situation is not much different in the > >>> > >>> administrative and spiritual circles of the hill shrine. First, it > >>> > >>> was a controversy involving Kannada film actress Jayamala and a > >>> group > >>> > >>> of orthodox Hindus, who questioned her claim of touching the idol of > >>> > >>> the bachelor god defying the barricades meant for preventing > >>> sexually > >>> > >>> active women from entering the hill shrine. Then one of the highly > >>> > >>> revered traditional priests of the temple was robbed of a large > >>> > >>> amount of money and gold ornaments during his visit to the house > >>> of a > >>> > >>> woman engaged in flesh trade by a mafia gang. And now, it is the > >>> turn > >>> > >>> of aged father of a senior priest to allege that his son is under > >>> > >>> influence of a powerful Ezhava community leader with shadowy nature > >>> > >>> and the leader's followers are using his son to pocket the temple > >>> > >>> money. In the meantime, the Left Front Government has disbanded the > >>> > >>> existing administrative body of the temple citing corruption at high > >>> > >>> level and is preparing to enact a legislation to keep the corrupt > >>> > >>> community leaders out of the administrative body forever. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On monetary grounds, the temple is the third largest in the country, > >>> > >>> standing very close to Tirupathi and Guruvayur. The cash-strapped > >>> > >>> Kerala Government, despite its leftist moorings, is depending very > >>> > >>> much on the income from the temple to meet salary needs of its > >>> > >>> employees. In order to increase the revenue, the successive > >>> > >>> governments and the so-called proponents of development are > >>> > >>> vociferous of implementing multi-crore construction plans in > >>> > >>> Sabarimala clearing forests and building a concrete jungle in its > >>> > >>> place. But nobody in the spiritual and administrative levels of the > >>> > >>> temple as well as the government establishment are apprehensive of > >>> > >>> the increasing level of pollution and the extreme level of > >>> > >>> deforestation. Their focus is entangled only in the growing > >>> number of > >>> > >>> controversies and the commissions to be available after the > >>> beginning > >>> > >>> of the construction work. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Located about 467 metres above sea level, the Sabarimala temple is > >>> > >>> surrounded by 18 hills and situated inside Periyar Tiger Reserve, > >>> one > >>> > >>> of the few safe havens for tigers in the country. According to bird > >>> > >>> watcher B.Sethumadhavan, as many as 2000 species of flowering > >>> plants, > >>> > >>> endemic and medicinal, have been identified among the region's > >>> flora. > >>> > >>> `` About 63 species of mammals, some of them endangered like tigers, > >>> > >>> elephants and lion tailed macaque live here. So far, 223 species of > >>> > >>> birds and 45 species of reptiles including King Cobra have been > >>> > >>> identified in this area,'' he said. The ever- expanding number of > >>> > >>> pilgrims and mindless construction works are posing severe threat to > >>> > >>> their very survival. Devotees of a Lord, who believed to have loved > >>> > >>> the flora and fauna and their safekeeping, are now on a rampage in > >>> > >>> the name of development forcing the wildlife to move out of their > >>> > >>> traditional habitat. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> As per legends, the vehicle of Lord Ayyappa is tiger. But, > >>> > >>> astonishingly, neither the tiger nor the surrounding evergreen > >>> > >>> forests do not come in the list of priorities before the |Travancore > >>> > >>> Devaswam Board, which administers the shrine. ``There was an > >>> increase > >>> > >>> of 35 per cent in revenue while comparing with last year during the > >>> > >>> November-December period. In the number of visitors, the increase is > >>> > >>> of 19 per cent. These figures show the need for immediate > >>> > >>> developmental works in Sabarimala. But there are agencies like > >>> Forest > >>> > >>> Department which cry for tigers and forests,'' alleges G.Raman Nair, > >>> > >>> outgoing president of the board. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> However, environmentalists and forest officials are countering the > >>> > >>> allegation. ``The development works so far at Pampa have made it > >>> > >>> impossible a soul-filling holy dip in river Pampa. At least, two > >>> > >>> scientific studies conducted by Government's own agencies had found > >>> > >>> that landslips and tremors would take place at the holy hillock any > >>> > >>> time largely because of the extensive concrete flooring at the > >>> temple > >>> > >>> premises. The devaswam is only interested in money making. It has no > >>> > >>> concern for the impending dangers for both nature and devotees,'' > >>> > >>> pointed out Sumesh Mangalassery, a member of the environmental group > >>> > >>> Kabani. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> According to Sumesh, a panel of Kerala Legislature on environment > >>> led > >>> > >>> by RSP leader A V Thamarakshan had submitted 32 proposals to the > >>> > >>> Devaswam Board to protect Sabarimala around five years back. But > >>> none > >>> > >>> of them were acceptable to the board. Even the suggestions of Kerala > >>> > >>> State Pollution Control Board to minimise the pollution of river > >>> > >>> Pampa were paid scant regard by the board. A visit by Tehelka to > >>> > >>> Sabarimala found that river Pampa continues to remain the main > >>> victim > >>> > >>> of the callous attitude of the authorities. It gets choked in the > >>> > >>> temple area as solid waste including human excreta; plastic bags, > >>> > >>> empty water bottles and coconut husks block the free flow of water. > >>> > >>> About 35 million people took a holy dip in the river between > >>> November > >>> > >>> and January, which is the major source of drinking water for three > >>> > >>> districts. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> According to a study by the pollution control board, the total > >>> > >>> coliform count recorded at the river portion close to Sabarimala is > >>> > >>> about 1,14,000 per 100 millilitres (ML) during the peak of > >>> > >>> pilgrimage. Just before the pilgrimage season, it is merely 380 per > >>> > >>> 100 ml- well below the permissible limits of 500 per 100 ml. > >>> > >>> According to local people, the overflow of human faeces from sceptic > >>> > >>> tanks around the temple stands the major reason of the pollution of > >>> > >>> the river. ``More than 3,000 temporary toilets are functioning close > >>> > >>> to the temple in addition to about 600 permanent toilets. The > >>> > >>> capacity of the sewerage treatment plant is very limited,'' pointed > >>> > >>> out K.Anirudhan of Sabarimala Samrakshana Samithy. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Most of the experts, who had conducted studies on the pollution and > >>> > >>> environmental problems prevailing in Sabarimala, point to the > >>> need of > >>> > >>> regulating the ever- increasing number of pilgrims. ``Sabarimala is > >>> > >>> bursting at the seams with millions of devotees now. Thirty or forty > >>> > >>> years ago, only around 50,000 pilgrims visited the temple. Today, > >>> the > >>> > >>> number is fifty million and is rising at the rate of 20 per cent > >>> > >>> every year. The ever-swelling flow resulted in a major mishap on > >>> > >>> January 14, 1999, when 100 pilgrims died in a stampede at the site. > >>> > >>> Indications are that Sabarimala is a disaster waiting to be > >>> happen,'' > >>> > >>> warns noted Kerala based environmentalist P K Uthaman. According to > >>> > >>> him, almost two thousand tonnes of human waste are deposited in > >>> crude > >>> > >>> earth pits and outside in Sabarimala every year. These wastes are > >>> > >>> finding their way into not only the river Pampa but also to river > >>> > >>> Periyar by underground as well as over ground rivulets, posing a > >>> > >>> threat great health hazard for the pilgrims as well as those living > >>> > >>> downstream. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> In addition, the lack of post pilgrimage cleaning drives often > >>> result > >>> > >>> in unabated flow of hazardous waste into the rivers. The temple area > >>> > >>> has already been converted into a concrete jungle where guesthouses > >>> > >>> and other structures are constructed haphazardly all around. They > >>> are > >>> > >>> meant for temple officials, priests, VVIPs and police personnel. > >>> > >>> According to M.Gopal, a pilgrim from Bangalore who visited > >>> Sabarimala > >>> > >>> this year, human excreta and plastic waste were found strewn just > >>> > >>> outside the Sannidhanam (the main building of the temple). As per > >>> > >>> data available from forest department, over 2.5 lakh empty plastic > >>> > >>> bottles of packaged water were collected from inside the tiger > >>> > >>> reserve. The number of tetra packs collected would come around 4.5 > >>> > >>> lakh. The temple complex of the hermit, who believed in renunciation > >>> > >>> of earthly attractions, is now filled with commercial shops selling > >>> > >>> products ranging from gold ornaments to dress materials. All these > >>> > >>> shops were constructed by clearing forests. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ``The total time available for darsan as of now is a total of 1431 > >>> > >>> hours, i.e. 515160 seconds. If a darsan goes on one at a time basis > >>> > >>> and a devotee gets a second, the total strength of the pilgrims can > >>> > >>> only be 5,15, 160 per year. If ten people could somehow cluster > >>> > >>> together per second for darsan, the maximum number would be > >>> > >>> 51,51,600,'' points out a document prepared by |School of Social > >>> > >>> Sciences at Mahatma Gandhi University on behalf of Kerla Forest > >>> > >>> Department. The document also questions the claims of the board that > >>> > >>> over 50 million people visit the temple annually. But anyway, the > >>> > >>> number of pilgrims' visting Sabarimala is many times more than its > >>> > >>> capacity. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ``The authorities must find out some mechanism to regulate the > >>> > >>> alarming increase in the number of pilgrims. Sabarimala is not only > >>> > >>> an environmental but also a social disaster,'' opined Dr.Rajan > >>> > >>> Gurukkal of School of Social Sciences. Now a day, the uncontrolled > >>> > >>> flow of pilgrims from various entry points is resulting in people > >>> > >>> swarming all around the protected sanctuary leading to man –animal > >>> > >>> conflicts. Recently, an elephant trampled upon one pilgrim. Then it > >>> > >>> was found that the pilgrims were sleeping in the corridor used by > >>> the > >>> > >>> elephants for going to the river to drink water at the night. A > >>> large > >>> > >>> number of such corridors were already disrupted due to the > >>> > >>> construction works undertaken in the recent past. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> According to Sedumadhavan, the authorities are even paying scant > >>> > >>> attention on the safety of pilgrims. As many as 12,000 litres of > >>> > >>> diesel are being stored just above the sannidhanam without any > >>> > >>> storage licence or safety parameters. They are also keeping a large > >>> > >>> number of crackers near the sanctum sanctoram without any safety > >>> > >>> concern. The only solution on the part of Trvancore Devaswom Board > >>> > >>> for all problems plaguing Sabarimala is denudation of nearby forests > >>> > >>> and setting up new amenities. According to Rajan Gurukkal, such an > >>> > >>> attempt would be disastrous as all the existing problems of > >>> > >>> Sabarimala can be viwed as the after effect of deforestation. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> The devaswam board has already ruined about 55.09 ha of > >>> forestland in > >>> > >>> the name of sabarimala development. In the opinion of > >>> > >>> environmentalists, they demand more forests to cut and smuggle out > >>> > >>> precious trees and construction of further concrete strctures with > >>> > >>> ulterior motives. Maintaining the sanctity of the shrine and the > >>> > >>> precious eco-system never appeared a priority before them. So far, > >>> > >>> the devaswam board was constituted once in five years by nomination > >>> > >>> of people with no administrative acumen at the behest of successive > >>> > >>> governments. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Rajan Gurukkal and his team at School of Social Sciences have > >>> > >>> prepared a long-term action plan for saving Sabarimala from the > >>> > >>> sequence of disasters in the offing. But the lobbies of corrupt and > >>> > >>> communal elements are not allowing the devaswam to look into them. > >>> > >>> Even the small step of Left Government in disbanding the existing > >>> > >>> devaswam committee is being interpreted as an attempt by atheists to > >>> > >>> interfere in Hindu religious matters. The move by left government to > >>> > >>> appoint experts in place of politicians at the board also facing > >>> > >>> opposition from Sangh Parivar organisations, who claim as custodians > >>> > >>> of Hindu places of worship. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> The board and its corrupt administrators were not able to get their > >>> > >>> hand on the forest so far due to stringent central acts and Supreme > >>> > >>> Court rulings. But even the outgoing members are repeating their old > >>> > >>> slogan of `no development in Sabarimala would be possible without > >>> > >>> deforestation.' Unless the authorities change their attitude from a > >>> > >>> revenue-centred approach to a pilgrim centred aprach, there is not > >>> > >>> much hope. But they still repeat that development (read > >>> > >>> deforestation) could not be stopped for the sake of a few birds and > >>> > >>> animals. ``The board had neither faith in environmental protection > >>> > >>> nor in religious sanctity,'' opines Rajan Gurukkal. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Decongestion of base town Pampa by increasing facilities at a > >>> > >>> relatively distant town of Nilakkal, demolition of unauthorised > >>> > >>> concrete structures at Sannidhanam and Pampa, cleaning of the river, > >>> > >>> better waste disposal facilities and provisions of basic facilities > >>> > >>> for pilgrims without affecting ecology are the urgent needs of > >>> > >>> Sabarimala. The tigers and elephants must be protected. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> If there is no mechanism to check the number of pilgrims, that would > >>> > >>> increase to two to three crores within years. Moderate elements > >>> among > >>> > >>> the Hindu community are favouring a statutory body for Sabarimala in > >>> > >>> line with Tirumala-Thirupathy Devasthanam and Amarnath temple. > >>> Such a > >>> > >>> body consisting of experts from different fields can change the > >>> > >>> course of priorities of the forest temple. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ----------- > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> 2. Amarnath Yatra: The Pilgrimage to Eco Disaster > >>> > >>> Gautam Navlakha > >>> > >>> http://www.kashmiraffairs.org/gautam_amarnath%20yatra.html > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Should one question the propriety of promoting pilgrimage in a > >>> > >>> ecologically fragile area or wink at it in the name of devotees > >>> right > >>> > >>> to free movement and worship? This question comes to mind when > >>> > >>> looking at Amarnath Yatra especially the phenomenal increase in the > >>> > >>> number of pilgrims. This increase is not of few hundred or few > >>> > >>> thousand but runs into hundreds of thousands. There has been a > >>> > >>> doubling of the period for pilgrimage from one month to two this > >>> year > >>> > >>> as well as forty times increase in number of pilgrims, from > >>> 12,000 in > >>> > >>> 1989 to 450,000 in 2005 (this year it is set to cross 500,000) are > >>> > >>> cause for concern. In fact the actual period is longer because a > >>> > >>> fortnight before the official yatra is reserved for army men and > >>> > >>> their families to visit the Amarnath cave through ecologically more > >>> > >>> vulnerable Baltal route. Moreover, in order to provide security for > >>> > >>> pilgrims who come out in large number, the paramilitary forces have > >>> > >>> to be deployed in large number. The current deployment will be in > >>> > >>> excess of 20,000 for the entire period. Their presence and stay > >>> > >>> cannot but affect the rise in pollution levels. Inclement weather > >>> too > >>> > >>> is an issue because rains in the plain means snow in the higher > >>> > >>> reaches. This results in crowding at the camps, straining services > >>> > >>> including disposal of waste. But worse things can happen as in 1996 > >>> > >>> when unexpected heavy snowfall resulted in death of 243 pilgrims and > >>> > >>> injuries to hundred more due to avalanche. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> The State Pollution Control Board (SPCB), recently in a 37 page > >>> > >>> report warns that generation of waste by pilgrims, absence of waste > >>> > >>> disposal sites, open dumping of garbage, air pollution, sewage > >>> > >>> generated by hotels, yatri camps and local residential areas makes > >>> > >>> its way into Lidder river. The SPCB warned that waste generated by > >>> > >>> pilgrims more than the local average and primarily contains > >>> plastics, > >>> > >>> polythene and leftover food packets all along the route. > >>> According to > >>> > >>> their calculation 55,000 kgs of plastic waste is generated every day > >>> > >>> during the pilgrimage. Besides, thousands of open toilets erected > >>> > >>> along the banks of Lidder river ensures that effluents enter the > >>> > >>> river. Thousands of vehicles ply up and down the mountains around > >>> > >>> Pahalgam all the way up to Chandanwari spewing carbon monoxide. The > >>> > >>> Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB), which came into existence on > >>> > >>> February 21, 2001, has been dismissive of such claims. They assert > >>> > >>> that 230 pre-fabricated toilets being raised in Nunwan base camp and > >>> > >>> human waste disposal off in leach pits with micro-organism > >>> technology > >>> > >>> using Bokaslin powder and other chemicals would take care of the > >>> > >>> problem. However, the issue is more than the supposedly effective > >>> > >>> modern methods to manage waste. The sheer presence of large mass of > >>> > >>> people is a cause for concern. Department of Science and technology > >>> > >>> through its principal investigator on glaciology has argued that > >>> "the > >>> > >>> ecology, the environment and health of the glacier can be under > >>> > >>> severe threat in case the Baltal route to the Holy Cave was > >>> > >>> frequented by thousands of pilgrims". And pointed out that > >>> "depletion > >>> > >>> and degradation (of glaciers) are the result of human breath, refuse > >>> > >>> and land erosion". (The Tribune July 5, 2005). > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> It is disconcerting to note that opening of Baltal route for > >>> pilgrims > >>> > >>> on foot and those using helicopters has crossed several thousand > >>> > >>> every day. Apart from the Department of Science and Technology of > >>> J&K > >>> > >>> government even the Nitish Sengupta committee, which was constituted > >>> > >>> to look into the deaths of 243 pilgrims in 1996 due to the > >>> snowstorm, > >>> > >>> had recommended that number of yatris be restricted to 5000 per day > >>> > >>> for a period of one month and the total number of pilgrims be capped > >>> > >>> at1.5 lakhs. According to them Baltal route should allow 1500 > >>> > >>> pilgrims and Pahalgam 3500 per day. However, the General JR > >>> Mukherjee > >>> > >>> committee, which looked into the cause of death of 35 people, due to > >>> > >>> cross fire, during the 2000 yatra, focussed on security arrangement > >>> > >>> and wanted the duration of the yatra to increase as security > >>> scenario > >>> > >>> improved. But neither report looked at the environmental impact of > >>> > >>> the yatra. Thus when the SASB invokes the recommendations of the two > >>> > >>> committees what it does is to use it selectively and link the number > >>> > >>> of pilgrims to the issue of managing security for them. In this > >>> sense > >>> > >>> they underplay the question whether the eco-system can bear heavy > >>> > >>> influx of pilgrims. This emphasis on encouraging larger number of > >>> > >>> pilgrims shows its impact on the environment in unexpected ways. > >>> Such > >>> > >>> as the SASB contemplating "air conditioning" to preserve the shiva > >>> > >>> lingam from melting. The recent controversy over the pilgrims > >>> > >>> alleging that the SASB has been constructing the "snow lingam" is > >>> now > >>> > >>> being passed off as due to change in the course of the water > >>> channels > >>> > >>> after last year's earthquake and global warming. Without ruling this > >>> > >>> out human contribution to this phenomenon cannot be ignored when > >>> > >>> glaciers are rapidly receding. As a matter of fact yatra was never > >>> > >>> undertaken in June precisely because formation of shiva lingam does > >>> > >>> not always take place then. Incidentally the local people speak of > >>> > >>> "human" intervention in restoring what is a natural phenomenon, as > >>> > >>> something that has happened in the past too. This apart large number > >>> > >>> of pilgrims means that going gets tough as one draws close to the > >>> > >>> cave with traffic jam being the order of the day. At times pilgrims > >>> > >>> have to wait for hours for their turn. Increase in dust in > >>> atmosphere > >>> > >>> too is caused by crowds of people as well as helicopter service. The > >>> > >>> dust raised is visible from long distance away. All this also means > >>> > >>> that individual pilgrims, that is other than VIPs, are disallowed > >>> > >>> from spending more than seconds inside the cave. Above all carbon > >>> > >>> dioxide levels shoot up warming the area all around. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> It cannot be that the SASB is unaware of the environmental concerns. > >>> > >>> If it receives short shrift it is because the yatra has come to > >>> > >>> symbolise Indian government's determination to promote its claim in > >>> > >>> J&K. That pilgrimage is being heralded as victory against a movement > >>> > >>> demanding azadi from India is available in the news portal of Indian > >>> > >>> government, Press Information Bureau. It says that "yearning for > >>> > >>> moksha (salvation) can move the devotees to the challenging heights > >>> > >>> of Kashmir and will be a fitting gesture of solidarity with our > >>> > >>> valiant soldiers who have been fighting the enemy to defend our > >>> > >>> borders". (pib.nic.in/feature/feo799/f1507992.html). Thus what is > >>> > >>> otherwise merely a religious pilgrimage of the Hindus has been > >>> > >>> elevated to represent a patriotic enterprise. Besides, the SASB is > >>> > >>> headed by the Governor and his principal secretary is the CEO of the > >>> > >>> SASB. Thus the Government of India is clearly in charge of > >>> organising > >>> > >>> the yatra. And it is the SASB which has been pushing for larger and > >>> > >>> larger numbers of pilgrims and challenging the right of the state > >>> > >>> government from interfering in anyway with the schedule announced by > >>> > >>> the SASB. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> It is true that not everyone who goes to Amarnath accepts this > >>> > >>> association of religion with patriotism. But the fact of the matter > >>> > >>> is that official perception of pilgrimage as patriotic duty has > >>> > >>> allowed the communal fascist elements to join in organising their > >>> > >>> supporters. Little wonder that frequency of conflict between section > >>> > >>> of such 'pilgrims' and local population due to their obnoxious > >>> > >>> behaviour has shown an increase. What is equally disconcerting is > >>> > >>> that the SASB presided over by the Governor has also been engaged in > >>> > >>> controversial transactions. The CEO of SASB is the principal > >>> > >>> secretary to the Governor. Present CEO's wife, in her capacity of > >>> > >>> Principal secretary forest department granted permission to SASB on > >>> > >>> May 29, 2005 to use forest land. But this provision was not in > >>> > >>> accordance with the provision of J&K Forest Conservation Act 1997 > >>> > >>> and, therefore, the state government withdrew the order. However, > >>> > >>> thanks to a stay order by a division bench of the J&K High Court the > >>> > >>> withdrawal of permission to occupy forest land, was suspended. Any > >>> > >>> visitor to Pahalgam can observe how this forest land is being > >>> cleared > >>> > >>> to setup camps for the yatris. In fact now the SASB has asked the > >>> > >>> state government to give them land in the radius of 5kms of the > >>> cave. > >>> > >>> This arouses local passions precisely because Indian security forces > >>> > >>> and other entities have transferred large tracts of land to house > >>> > >>> camps for security force personnel, or for central projects, as well > >>> > >>> as for schools which are run by army among others. Even a pro-Indian > >>> > >>> National Conference party has protested such transfers of land since > >>> > >>> 1989. Not very far from the camp for the pilgrims in Pahalgam, in > >>> > >>> Lidru (opposite Kulan village) what locals describe as one of the > >>> > >>> finest meadows, spread over 550 kanals (one kanal=one eighth of > >>> acre) > >>> > >>> in area, has been given to the army to run a school! Local > >>> population > >>> > >>> feels helpless at being unable to stop this. Therefore, when SASB > >>> > >>> wants large tract of land transferred to it under the claim of > >>> > >>> providing accommodation for lakhs of pilgrims it must be weighed > >>> > >>> against this local concern. Were the numbers of pilgrims to be > >>> > >>> brought down the pressing need for transferring large areas to SASB > >>> > >>> or for providing carpet security and thus deployment of force, > >>> can be > >>> > >>> brought down. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> This apart the SASB has also been involved in other controversial > >>> > >>> acts. One such was the recent attempt by the SASB to bring down the > >>> > >>> involvement of local people in the yatra. When on June 5, 2006 the > >>> > >>> local pro-India Peoples' Democratic Party (PDP) claimed that SASB > >>> was > >>> > >>> ignoring livelihood of locals, the SASB countered by claiming that > >>> > >>> such criticism would generate controversy and thus "jeopardise" > >>> > >>> tourism in Kashmir. Quite apart from the fact that promotion of > >>> > >>> pilgrimage for commerce flies in the face of proclaimed concern for > >>> > >>> people's faith PDP pointed out that if local porters and ponywallahs > >>> > >>> can strike work at Vaishnodevi Shrine against the (mis)management of > >>> > >>> the Shri Vaishnodevi Shrine Board (SVDSB) and seek support from > >>> local > >>> > >>> Congress leaders then what is wrong if local people from Pahalgam > >>> and > >>> > >>> Kangan areas seek their help to protest against the practises of > >>> SASB > >>> > >>> which discriminate against them. In fact the Pithoo Workers Union at > >>> > >>> Katra have protested the suspension of six of their leaders, alleged > >>> > >>> manhandling by SVDSB officials and demanded recall of its additional > >>> > >>> CEO. Neither the Governor as head of SVDSB nor the Board issued any > >>> > >>> statement chastising the Congress party! > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Arguably, when yatra was halted between 1991-96 due to threat of > >>> > >>> section of the militants it played into the hands of the extreme > >>> > >>> right wing elements in Indian society who have since then become an > >>> > >>> integral part of mobilising large numbers of pilgrims. Thus a > >>> form of > >>> > >>> competitive communalism came into play. Thus when section of the > >>> > >>> militants represented earlier by Harkatul Ansar and now Lashkar-e- > >>> > >>> Taiyyaba or Jaish-e-Mohammed threaten to disrupt the pilgrimage it > >>> > >>> only gets the backs up of the devout Hindus opens them to vitriol of > >>> > >>> the rabidly anti-Muslim Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), Shiv Sena etc. > >>> > >>> and accentuates the communal divide. However, it is equally > >>> important > >>> > >>> to note the actual fact that more people have died in yatra due to > >>> > >>> inclement weather and cross fire than at the hands of the militants. > >>> > >>> Besides, the main indigenous militant organisation Hizbul Mujahideen > >>> > >>> has always supported the yatra and has consistently demonstrated its > >>> > >>> opposition towards those who have tried to disrupt the yatra. > >>> > >>> Moreover, prior to constituting SASB the state government, local > >>> > >>> people and social activists provided aid and assistance to the > >>> > >>> pilgrims. However, threat of environmental damage has become a > >>> matter > >>> > >>> of utmost concern because the central government under the cover of > >>> > >>> SASB remains unrelenting in its pursuit of ever larger numbers to > >>> > >>> come for pilgrimage. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> In a way the Amarnath yatra illustrates the way in which the Indian > >>> > >>> government injects communalism in our body politic. And also > >>> > >>> represents how secularism in India has been perverted to mean state > >>> > >>> patronage of religion/s. This patronage is not equitably distributed > >>> > >>> since Hindus outnumber others by more than eight times. Which is to > >>> > >>> say that between un-equals equality ends up promoting Hindu > >>> religious > >>> > >>> practises. In Amarnath yatra, in fact, the India government even > >>> > >>> discarded its pretended neutrality by publicising the yatra as a > >>> > >>> patriotic duty! Consequently, the likelihood of Amarnath pilgrimage > >>> > >>> getting mired in controversy, over environmental damage and > >>> > >>> eventually feeding into further alienation of people because they > >>> can > >>> > >>> do little to save damage to their lived environment, has increased. > >>> > >>> Trouble is the Indian government cares little for people and prefers > >>> > >>> to pander to the extreme rightwing by projecting the yatra as a > >>> > >>> patriotic enterprise to boost the morale of the Indian paramilitary > >>> > >>> forces. The very same force which the local population regards as > >>> > >>> symbol of their oppression. Thus a bigger mess is in the making > >>> right > >>> > >>> before our own eyes. > >>> > >>> --------------- > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >>> > >>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS > >>> > >>> Raqs Media Collective > >>> > >>> shuddha at sarai.net > >>> > >>> www.sarai.net > >>> > >>> www.raqsmediacollective.net > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> > > ... > > > > [Message clipped] > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Jul 1 06:14:29 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 06:14:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra In-Reply-To: <505458.40322.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <505458.40322.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <427AE7C8-FA27-42EB-9C31-4E73BD7A67A2@sarai.net> Dear Rahul, Why is it naiive to believe that tens of thousands of protestors would take to the streets for environmental reasons? Are you trying to say that tens of thousands of protestors do not turn up on the streets for environmental reasons? As far as I know, tens of thousands of protestors routinely protested in the Narmada Valley for environmental reasons, on several occasions, across several years. Why should Kashmir be different? Having said that, I would like to underscore that I am not for a moment making a categorical statement, either way, about the sincerity of the sudden display of 'ecological consciousness' by elements within the Kashmiri separatist constiuency, or within any other segment in the Kashmiri political spectrum today. I have no way of gauging the sincerity of these entities when it comes to environmental issues. No one has any means of gauging their insincerity either. I am, in fact, not interested in sitting on judgement on whether the protestors are 'sincere' or not. I can see why there should be protests. And if there are protests, I think they ought not be dismissed on the basis of speculations about the purported 'sincerity' of the protestors. Furthermore, there is nothing that demonstrates to me that a sentiment against a change in the demographic profile of a region is identical to a sentiment against Hindu pilgrims. No one has said anything either implcitly, or explicitly about pilgrims. I will come to my take on the question of 'demographic shifts' later. Pilgrims are transients. They do not settle and change the demographic profile of a place. The protests are against the transfer of land. The transfer of land can legitimately raise the suspicion that permanent structures will be build on that land, (why else argue for a change in the status of the owner of the land). It is clear that the permanence of these structures does not have any relation to the duration or necessities of the traditional 'Pilgrimage Season' in Amarnath. It may be remembered, that even at the height of the Kashmir insurgency, when some groups had sought to attack the Amarnath pilgrims, the Hizbul Mujahideen, the largest and most significant armed Kashmiri secessionist outfit, issued statements against any attempts to attack Amarnath pilgrims. The Action Committee Against Land Transfer, the organization co ordinating the Anti land Transfer movement in Kashmir has categorically stated that it has nothing against pilgrims or the pilgrimage to Amarnath. None of this amounts, in my book, to an adequate amount of circumstantial evidence for 'sentiments' against pilgrims. Would it not be better if we saw the reality of this anger against the pattern of the forcible acquisition of land by state agencies in Kashmir. Let me conclude by saying that I do not think that anything done on 38.99 acres of land can amount to a demographic shift. And those who (in Kashmir) , even within the Action Committee Against Land Transfer are talking about a 'demographic shift' with reference to the Amarnath issue are pursuing a red herring. There is a real issue of the forcible acquisition of land by agencies of the state and the armed forces in Jammu and Kashmir, that is much wider in terms of its ramifications than the single issue of Amarnath alone. I for one, do not think that the presence of Bangladeshi immigrants in say, Assam, needs to be attacked because it represents the threat of a demographic shift to some people. There are good reasons why in some parts of India (in J&K under article 370 and under the Fifths Schedule of the Constitution in certain notified tribal areas in different parts of the country) non aborigionals or non-state subjects (in the case of J&K) are barred from acquiring landed property. These have to do with the histories of disposession and land alienation in these areas. But that does not mean that such people (non aboriginals and non state subjects) cannot live in these areas. To state that would be to confuse lived practices of habitation with the ownership of property, and to confuse the category of the citizen with the reality of the denizen. best Shuddha No one, in Kashmir has said anything against Pilgrims. The On 01-Jul-08, at 5:30 AM, Rahul Asthana wrote: > I find two problems with the point of view that this protest is for > reasons of ecology\vigilantism against land occupation. > 1. I quote from a news report > "Protesters accuse the Indian government of planning to build Hindu > settlements in India’s only Muslim majority state in order to > change the demographic balance in the region." > 2. Even if nothing is explicitly said,Its kind of naive to believe > that "tens of thousands" of protesters have come into the streets > for environmental reasons. > >> And until such a >> statement >> is made, we cannot say that it arises out of a >> 'resentment towards >> hindu pligrims'. > > There is enough circumstantial evidence for making the above > conclusion. > > > > > --- On Mon, 6/30/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra >> To: "Pawan Durani" >> Cc: "sarai list" >> Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 9:57 PM >> Dear Pawan, >> >> That is your opinion, not a substantiated fact. As far as I >> have >> seen, there has not been a single statement made against >> Hindu >> pligrims by anyone in the leadership or the constituency of >> the >> movement against land transfer in Kashmir. And until such a >> statement >> is made, we cannot say that it arises out of a >> 'resentment towards >> hindu pligrims'. People across the spectrum of >> political opinion in >> Kashmir have taken pains to point out that they welcome >> pilgrims. And >> the question of the acquisition of land has nothing to do >> with >> pilgrims. There is a long history of arbitrary acquisition >> and >> occupation of land, including orchards, schools, meadows, >> pastures, >> grazing comons and private homes in Kashmir, especially by >> the Armed >> Forces and paramilitaries, it is possible that the movement >> we see >> crystallizes the pent up feeling of anger against this long >> history >> of land acquisition. >> >> An audit of the impact of land acquisition on the ecology >> and social >> fabric of Kashmir (on both sides of the line of control) is >> still >> pending. >> >> best >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> On 30-Jun-08, at 9:24 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >>> Dear Shuddha , >>> >>> >>> >>> While I may trust your belief in ecological fallout , >> i completely >>> disagree with your understanding that the issue is not >> about the >>> resentment towards hindu pligrims. >>> >>> >>> >>> It is all about that , non tolerance towards so called >> hindus or >>> what they love to call...."Kufr". >>> >>> >>> >>> Pawan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 6/30/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> wrote: >>> Dear Pawan, >>> >>> >>> >>> Just because a terrain does not have trees, or that >> the altitude it >>> is located in happens to be above the treeline, does >> not mean that >>> it is not ecologically sensitive. >>> >>> Often, it is precisely terrain of this nature, such as >> for instance >>> is at the vicinity of the mouth of the Gomukh glacier >> above >>> Gangotri,(again above the treeline) that is extremely >> fragile and >>> needs very careful nurturing. >>> >>> >>> >>> I know for a fact that the ecosystem of the Gomukh >> glacial region >>> is very badly threatened because of the completely >> haphazard way in >>> which access to this region (and the logistics of >> pilgrimage and >>> tourism) has been managed. I can very easily see that >> something >>> similar can happen in the case of Amarnath. >>> >>> >>> >>> I would urge you not to make the discussion of this >> question into a >>> 'Hindu' question. It is not one, it is about >> the way in which State >>> managed, so called, 'Temple Development >> Boards', enter into schemes >>> to grab land, and about the ecological consequences of >> their land- >>> grabbing propensities. >>> >>> >>> >>> You might recall that some months back you tried to >> pose the >>> question of the building of a shipping canal between >> India and Sri >>> Lanka as a matter of hurting Hindu sentiments. I >> endorsed your >>> opposition to the so called 'Sethu-Samudram >> Shipping Channel' >>> scheme, because to me it represented a threat to a >> fragile marine >>> ecosystem, not on the basis of its alleged injury to >> Hindu >>> sentiments. I also pointed out to you and to others on >> the list >>> that the protectors of Hindutva, while proposing a >> Panama Canal >>> style waterway cutting through the apex of the Deccan >> peninsula as >>> an alternative to the 'Sethu-Samudram' plan >> were also proposing >>> what was certainly a blueprint for an ecological >> disaster. >>> >>> >>> >>> Opposition to the proposed (and now rescinded) land >> grab proposal >>> by the SASB in the Amarnath case does not >> automatically translate >>> into partisanship across the Hindu-Muslim question in >> Kashmir. >>> Those who translate it as such, whether they are >> Hindu, or Muslim, >>> are needlessly confusing a straightforward matter by >> bringing their >>> own secterian biases to bear on the issue. No one >> should be misled >>> by such attempts at confusion. >>> >>> >>> >>> best >>> >>> >>> >>> Shuddha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 30-Jun-08, at 4:44 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Hello Shuddha , >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Lemme just inform everyone that , the land may >> have belonged to >>>> Forest >>>> >>>> Department , but there is no single tree over >> there. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Even when you reach Amarntah , there are no trees >> over there , >>>> becuase of >>>> >>>> high altitude. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I visited the site, Baltal , two years back. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Unfortunately the issue is not about ecology ..... >> the way it has >>>> been >>>> >>>> treated is a pure indicator that anything related >> to Hindus is not >>>> tolerable >>>> >>>> in Kashmir, and proves once again that it is not >> "freedom" but >>>> Islamic >>>> >>>> fanaticism which rules the shot in Kashmir. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Pawan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 6/30/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dear Sonia, Dear Rashneek, dear all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thank you, Sonia and Rashneek for the debate >> on the Amarnath Yatra >>>>> >>>>> issue. The question of temple boards and their >> closeness to power, >>>>> >>>>> and their lust for acquiring forest lands is >> not unique to Kashmir. >>>>> >>>>> It also happens, as you will see below, (see >> the report - >>>>> Sabarimala: >>>>> >>>>> The Faith in Spate, by K.A. Shaji) indistant >> Kerala. The ruling >>>>> left >>>>> >>>>> front government in Kerala is as involved in >> this game as anyone >>>>> >>>>> else, because 'Temple Boards' are >> gold-mines and no state government >>>>> >>>>> wants to close an operation that earns them >> the gold that can be >>>>> >>>>> mined in these gold mines. I am appending >> below a report on the >>>>> >>>>> question of the Sabarimala Temple boards >> desire for even more >>>>> >>>>> reserved forest land. The story is remarkably >> resonant of the >>>>> >>>>> Amarnath issue. A local, highly culturally >> specific, syncretic >>>>> >>>>> pilgrimage turning into the road-show of a >> revivalist 'Hinduism', >>>>> >>>>> with lucrative revenue spin-offs. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I live in an area in Delhi where I have >> witnessed every year, for >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>> past few years - 'Chalo Amarnath >> Chalo' (Let's go to Amarnath) >>>>> >>>>> posters and banners being put up by local RSS >> functionaries. And >>>>> >>>>> there are active fundraising drives which >> culminate in a >>>>> cavalcade of >>>>> >>>>> Tata Sumos with the local 'Youth' >> blaring 'bhajans' from their >>>>> >>>>> booming auto-sound systems taking off to go do >> 'darshan' of the >>>>> >>>>> melting lingam. I don't think they (the >> Sumo Pilgrims of my >>>>> >>>>> neighbourhood) really care whether or not the >> forests of Kashmir go >>>>> >>>>> up in smoke. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I also know that the Sabarimala pilgrimage has >> been twisted out of >>>>> >>>>> shape in a similar way, both by Hindutva >> enthusiasts, and by >>>>> >>>>> construction contractors close to the ruling >> Left Front. Fragile >>>>> >>>>> forests can barely sustain the burden of so >> much sudden faith. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Incidentally, revivalist Hindus are by no >> means alone in their >>>>> >>>>> disregard for the local heritage and >> environment. The ruling >>>>> >>>>> dispensation in Saudi Arabia has effectively >> turned the pilgrimage >>>>> >>>>> sites of Mecca and Medina into an >> air-conditioned cultural >>>>> wasteland. >>>>> >>>>> it has systematically destroyed shrines that >> were considered holy by >>>>> >>>>> millions of Muslim pilgrims, especially from >> South Asia, and >>>>> >>>>> completely transformed the intricate urban >> fabric of Mecca and >>>>> >>>>> Medina. There is a long history of protest, >> including in India, by >>>>> >>>>> Muslims against the way in which the Saudi >> Government, in cohorts >>>>> >>>>> with the Wahabi establishment has wrecked the >> topography of Mecca >>>>> and >>>>> >>>>> Medina. Similarly, the Israeli state's >> policy of expansion, through >>>>> >>>>> settlements, and building high security >> segregated roads that cut >>>>> >>>>> through the west bank of the Jordan river are >> often camouflaged >>>>> under >>>>> >>>>> an appeal to scriptural sanction for >> 'Greater' or 'Eretz' Israel. >>>>> >>>>> There is a great deal of money to be made in >> pilgrimage, and it >>>>> >>>>> affords everybody an opportunity to make some >> quick transformations >>>>> >>>>> of the landscape in the name of >> 'infrastructure development' and >>>>> >>>>> 'settlement' , both of which are >> euphemisms for speculation in real >>>>> >>>>> estate. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I am also appending a detailed report on the >> environmental impact of >>>>> >>>>> what was proposed by the erstwhile governor >> Gen (Retd) Sinha of >>>>> Jammu >>>>> >>>>> and Kashmir for the Amarnath Yatra by Gautam >> Navlakha that appeared >>>>> >>>>> recently in the website of a journal called >> Kashmir Affairs. >>>>> Finally, >>>>> >>>>> it is not my case that the acquisition of land >> for the Amarnath >>>>> Board >>>>> >>>>> (SASB) is wrong, and the acquisition of land >> for the so-called >>>>> >>>>> 'Mughal Road', which has been pointed >> out by Aditya Raj Kaul, in a >>>>> >>>>> recent post is wrong. Both are equally >> disastrous from the >>>>> >>>>> environmental point of view. And the silence >> of political formations >>>>> >>>>> (of all persuasions) on the environmental >> impact of the revived >>>>> >>>>> Mughal Road and their recent discovery of >> environmentalism (in the >>>>> >>>>> case of the Amarnath land transfer issue) does >> make their commitment >>>>> >>>>> to environmentalism somewhat suspect. The >> PDP's stance is >>>>> >>>>> particularly hypocritical, as the original >> decision has been >>>>> ratified >>>>> >>>>> by its own minister, (for Forest) in the >> (Indian Held) J&K state >>>>> >>>>> government. Still, even if the commitment of >> all the protagonists is >>>>> >>>>> suspect, I must say that I have rarely seen a >> popular movement >>>>> >>>>> reverse a state-driven decision on an >> 'environmental' issue, and the >>>>> >>>>> recent success of the agitation in Kashmir >> (whatever be the motives >>>>> >>>>> that impelled it) which has resulted in a >> reversal of the Land >>>>> >>>>> Transfer issue is something to be grateful >> for. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> These are issues that need to be seen quite >> separately from >>>>> secterian >>>>> >>>>> concerns. I hope this debate can help us see >> them in that way. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> best >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Shuddha >>>>> >>>>> ------------------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1. Sabarimala: The Faith in Spate >>>>> >>>>> by K A Shaji >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.boloji.com/society/115.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Legend has it that when Lord Ayyappa set out >> to seek solitude, he >>>>> >>>>> settled upon Sabarimala. Its sylvan >> surroundings and undulating >>>>> >>>>> terrain had made it an ideal retreat for the >> bachelor god. The >>>>> >>>>> pristine monsoon forests had wrapped like an >> ornament around his >>>>> >>>>> hermitage at the top of the hill. The Lord >> believed to have called >>>>> >>>>> the area with tranquil atmosphere as his >> poonkavanam (sacred >>>>> forest). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> A shrine inside the forest and a deity who >> chose the calm >>>>> ambience of >>>>> >>>>> hills and valleys has few parallels in the >> country and outside. But >>>>> >>>>> now, it seems, all of the glories of >> Sabarimala were a thing of the >>>>> >>>>> past. When mythology meets present-day >> reality, Sabarimala is no >>>>> more >>>>> >>>>> a chosen abode of the hermit God. During >> January-February each year, >>>>> >>>>> more than 50 million devotees, as claimed by >> the temple authorities, >>>>> >>>>> are thronging this forest temple for annual >> pilgrimage, putting the >>>>> >>>>> fragile ecology of the region under severe >> stress. Now, the holy >>>>> hill >>>>> >>>>> is a synonym of increasing inflow of pilgrims, >> inadequate >>>>> >>>>> infrastructure, a devastated environment and a >> hapless wildlife. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> While the entire hill and the adjacent river >> Pampa, the third >>>>> largest >>>>> >>>>> river in Kerala, are stinking due to sewage >> pollution and >>>>> >>>>> accumulation of garbage, the situation is not >> much different in the >>>>> >>>>> administrative and spiritual circles of the >> hill shrine. First, it >>>>> >>>>> was a controversy involving Kannada film >> actress Jayamala and a >>>>> group >>>>> >>>>> of orthodox Hindus, who questioned her claim >> of touching the idol of >>>>> >>>>> the bachelor god defying the barricades meant >> for preventing >>>>> sexually >>>>> >>>>> active women from entering the hill shrine. >> Then one of the highly >>>>> >>>>> revered traditional priests of the temple was >> robbed of a large >>>>> >>>>> amount of money and gold ornaments during his >> visit to the house >>>>> of a >>>>> >>>>> woman engaged in flesh trade by a mafia gang. >> And now, it is the >>>>> turn >>>>> >>>>> of aged father of a senior priest to allege >> that his son is under >>>>> >>>>> influence of a powerful Ezhava community >> leader with shadowy nature >>>>> >>>>> and the leader's followers are using his >> son to pocket the temple >>>>> >>>>> money. In the meantime, the Left Front >> Government has disbanded the >>>>> >>>>> existing administrative body of the temple >> citing corruption at high >>>>> >>>>> level and is preparing to enact a legislation >> to keep the corrupt >>>>> >>>>> community leaders out of the administrative >> body forever. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On monetary grounds, the temple is the third >> largest in the country, >>>>> >>>>> standing very close to Tirupathi and >> Guruvayur. The cash-strapped >>>>> >>>>> Kerala Government, despite its leftist >> moorings, is depending very >>>>> >>>>> much on the income from the temple to meet >> salary needs of its >>>>> >>>>> employees. In order to increase the revenue, >> the successive >>>>> >>>>> governments and the so-called proponents of >> development are >>>>> >>>>> vociferous of implementing multi-crore >> construction plans in >>>>> >>>>> Sabarimala clearing forests and building a >> concrete jungle in its >>>>> >>>>> place. But nobody in the spiritual and >> administrative levels of the >>>>> >>>>> temple as well as the government establishment >> are apprehensive of >>>>> >>>>> the increasing level of pollution and the >> extreme level of >>>>> >>>>> deforestation. Their focus is entangled only >> in the growing >>>>> number of >>>>> >>>>> controversies and the commissions to be >> available after the >>>>> beginning >>>>> >>>>> of the construction work. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Located about 467 metres above sea level, the >> Sabarimala temple is >>>>> >>>>> surrounded by 18 hills and situated inside >> Periyar Tiger Reserve, >>>>> one >>>>> >>>>> of the few safe havens for tigers in the >> country. According to bird >>>>> >>>>> watcher B.Sethumadhavan, as many as 2000 >> species of flowering >>>>> plants, >>>>> >>>>> endemic and medicinal, have been identified >> among the region's >>>>> flora. >>>>> >>>>> `` About 63 species of mammals, some of them >> endangered like tigers, >>>>> >>>>> elephants and lion tailed macaque live here. >> So far, 223 species of >>>>> >>>>> birds and 45 species of reptiles including >> King Cobra have been >>>>> >>>>> identified in this area,'' he said. >> The ever- expanding number of >>>>> >>>>> pilgrims and mindless construction works are >> posing severe threat to >>>>> >>>>> their very survival. Devotees of a Lord, who >> believed to have loved >>>>> >>>>> the flora and fauna and their safekeeping, are >> now on a rampage in >>>>> >>>>> the name of development forcing the wildlife >> to move out of their >>>>> >>>>> traditional habitat. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> As per legends, the vehicle of Lord Ayyappa is >> tiger. But, >>>>> >>>>> astonishingly, neither the tiger nor the >> surrounding evergreen >>>>> >>>>> forests do not come in the list of priorities >> before the |Travancore >>>>> >>>>> Devaswam Board, which administers the shrine. >> ``There was an >>>>> increase >>>>> >>>>> of 35 per cent in revenue while comparing with >> last year during the >>>>> >>>>> November-December period. In the number of >> visitors, the increase is >>>>> >>>>> of 19 per cent. These figures show the need >> for immediate >>>>> >>>>> developmental works in Sabarimala. But there >> are agencies like >>>>> Forest >>>>> >>>>> Department which cry for tigers and >> forests,'' alleges G.Raman Nair, >>>>> >>>>> outgoing president of the board. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> However, environmentalists and forest >> officials are countering the >>>>> >>>>> allegation. ``The development works so far at >> Pampa have made it >>>>> >>>>> impossible a soul-filling holy dip in river >> Pampa. At least, two >>>>> >>>>> scientific studies conducted by >> Government's own agencies had found >>>>> >>>>> that landslips and tremors would take place at >> the holy hillock any >>>>> >>>>> time largely because of the extensive concrete >> flooring at the >>>>> temple >>>>> >>>>> premises. The devaswam is only interested in >> money making. It has no >>>>> >>>>> concern for the impending dangers for both >> nature and devotees,'' >>>>> >>>>> pointed out Sumesh Mangalassery, a member of >> the environmental group >>>>> >>>>> Kabani. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> According to Sumesh, a panel of Kerala >> Legislature on environment >>>>> led >>>>> >>>>> by RSP leader A V Thamarakshan had submitted >> 32 proposals to the >>>>> >>>>> Devaswam Board to protect Sabarimala around >> five years back. But >>>>> none >>>>> >>>>> of them were acceptable to the board. Even the >> suggestions of Kerala >>>>> >>>>> State Pollution Control Board to minimise the >> pollution of river >>>>> >>>>> Pampa were paid scant regard by the board. A >> visit by Tehelka to >>>>> >>>>> Sabarimala found that river Pampa continues to >> remain the main >>>>> victim >>>>> >>>>> of the callous attitude of the authorities. It >> gets choked in the >>>>> >>>>> temple area as solid waste including human >> excreta; plastic bags, >>>>> >>>>> empty water bottles and coconut husks block >> the free flow of water. >>>>> >>>>> About 35 million people took a holy dip in the >> river between >>>>> November >>>>> >>>>> and January, which is the major source of >> drinking water for three >>>>> >>>>> districts. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> According to a study by the pollution control >> board, the total >>>>> >>>>> coliform count recorded at the river portion >> close to Sabarimala is >>>>> >>>>> about 1,14,000 per 100 millilitres (ML) during >> the peak of >>>>> >>>>> pilgrimage. Just before the pilgrimage season, >> it is merely 380 per >>>>> >>>>> 100 ml- well below the permissible limits of >> 500 per 100 ml. >>>>> >>>>> According to local people, the overflow of >> human faeces from sceptic >>>>> >>>>> tanks around the temple stands the major >> reason of the pollution of >>>>> >>>>> the river. ``More than 3,000 temporary toilets >> are functioning close >>>>> >>>>> to the temple in addition to about 600 >> permanent toilets. The >>>>> >>>>> capacity of the sewerage treatment plant is >> very limited,'' pointed >>>>> >>>>> out K.Anirudhan of Sabarimala Samrakshana >> Samithy. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Most of the experts, who had conducted studies >> on the pollution and >>>>> >>>>> environmental problems prevailing in >> Sabarimala, point to the >>>>> need of >>>>> >>>>> regulating the ever- increasing number of >> pilgrims. ``Sabarimala is >>>>> >>>>> bursting at the seams with millions of >> devotees now. Thirty or forty >>>>> >>>>> years ago, only around 50,000 pilgrims visited >> the temple. Today, >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>> number is fifty million and is rising at the >> rate of 20 per cent >>>>> >>>>> every year. The ever-swelling flow resulted in >> a major mishap on >>>>> >>>>> January 14, 1999, when 100 pilgrims died in a >> stampede at the site. >>>>> >>>>> Indications are that Sabarimala is a disaster >> waiting to be >>>>> happen,'' >>>>> >>>>> warns noted Kerala based environmentalist P K >> Uthaman. According to >>>>> >>>>> him, almost two thousand tonnes of human waste >> are deposited in >>>>> crude >>>>> >>>>> earth pits and outside in Sabarimala every >> year. These wastes are >>>>> >>>>> finding their way into not only the river >> Pampa but also to river >>>>> >>>>> Periyar by underground as well as over ground >> rivulets, posing a >>>>> >>>>> threat great health hazard for the pilgrims as >> well as those living >>>>> >>>>> downstream. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In addition, the lack of post pilgrimage >> cleaning drives often >>>>> result >>>>> >>>>> in unabated flow of hazardous waste into the >> rivers. The temple area >>>>> >>>>> has already been converted into a concrete >> jungle where guesthouses >>>>> >>>>> and other structures are constructed >> haphazardly all around. They >>>>> are >>>>> >>>>> meant for temple officials, priests, VVIPs and >> police personnel. >>>>> >>>>> According to M.Gopal, a pilgrim from Bangalore >> who visited >>>>> Sabarimala >>>>> >>>>> this year, human excreta and plastic waste >> were found strewn just >>>>> >>>>> outside the Sannidhanam (the main building of >> the temple). As per >>>>> >>>>> data available from forest department, over >> 2.5 lakh empty plastic >>>>> >>>>> bottles of packaged water were collected from >> inside the tiger >>>>> >>>>> reserve. The number of tetra packs collected >> would come around 4.5 >>>>> >>>>> lakh. The temple complex of the hermit, who >> believed in renunciation >>>>> >>>>> of earthly attractions, is now filled with >> commercial shops selling >>>>> >>>>> products ranging from gold ornaments to dress >> materials. All these >>>>> >>>>> shops were constructed by clearing forests. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ``The total time available for darsan as of >> now is a total of 1431 >>>>> >>>>> hours, i.e. 515160 seconds. If a darsan goes >> on one at a time basis >>>>> >>>>> and a devotee gets a second, the total >> strength of the pilgrims can >>>>> >>>>> only be 5,15, 160 per year. If ten people >> could somehow cluster >>>>> >>>>> together per second for darsan, the maximum >> number would be >>>>> >>>>> 51,51,600,'' points out a document >> prepared by |School of Social >>>>> >>>>> Sciences at Mahatma Gandhi University on >> behalf of Kerla Forest >>>>> >>>>> Department. The document also questions the >> claims of the board that >>>>> >>>>> over 50 million people visit the temple >> annually. But anyway, the >>>>> >>>>> number of pilgrims' visting Sabarimala is >> many times more than its >>>>> >>>>> capacity. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ``The authorities must find out some mechanism >> to regulate the >>>>> >>>>> alarming increase in the number of pilgrims. >> Sabarimala is not only >>>>> >>>>> an environmental but also a social >> disaster,'' opined Dr.Rajan >>>>> >>>>> Gurukkal of School of Social Sciences. Now a >> day, the uncontrolled >>>>> >>>>> flow of pilgrims from various entry points is >> resulting in people >>>>> >>>>> swarming all around the protected sanctuary >> leading to man –animal >>>>> >>>>> conflicts. Recently, an elephant trampled upon >> one pilgrim. Then it >>>>> >>>>> was found that the pilgrims were sleeping in >> the corridor used by >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>> elephants for going to the river to drink >> water at the night. A >>>>> large >>>>> >>>>> number of such corridors were already >> disrupted due to the >>>>> >>>>> construction works undertaken in the recent >> past. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> According to Sedumadhavan, the authorities are >> even paying scant >>>>> >>>>> attention on the safety of pilgrims. As many >> as 12,000 litres of >>>>> >>>>> diesel are being stored just above the >> sannidhanam without any >>>>> >>>>> storage licence or safety parameters. They are >> also keeping a large >>>>> >>>>> number of crackers near the sanctum sanctoram >> without any safety >>>>> >>>>> concern. The only solution on the part of >> Trvancore Devaswom Board >>>>> >>>>> for all problems plaguing Sabarimala is >> denudation of nearby forests >>>>> >>>>> and setting up new amenities. According to >> Rajan Gurukkal, such an >>>>> >>>>> attempt would be disastrous as all the >> existing problems of >>>>> >>>>> Sabarimala can be viwed as the after effect of >> deforestation. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The devaswam board has already ruined about >> 55.09 ha of >>>>> forestland in >>>>> >>>>> the name of sabarimala development. In the >> opinion of >>>>> >>>>> environmentalists, they demand more forests to >> cut and smuggle out >>>>> >>>>> precious trees and construction of further >> concrete strctures with >>>>> >>>>> ulterior motives. Maintaining the sanctity of >> the shrine and the >>>>> >>>>> precious eco-system never appeared a priority >> before them. So far, >>>>> >>>>> the devaswam board was constituted once in >> five years by nomination >>>>> >>>>> of people with no administrative acumen at the >> behest of successive >>>>> >>>>> governments. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Rajan Gurukkal and his team at School of >> Social Sciences have >>>>> >>>>> prepared a long-term action plan for saving >> Sabarimala from the >>>>> >>>>> sequence of disasters in the offing. But the >> lobbies of corrupt and >>>>> >>>>> communal elements are not allowing the >> devaswam to look into them. >>>>> >>>>> Even the small step of Left Government in >> disbanding the existing >>>>> >>>>> devaswam committee is being interpreted as an >> attempt by atheists to >>>>> >>>>> interfere in Hindu religious matters. The move >> by left government to >>>>> >>>>> appoint experts in place of politicians at the >> board also facing >>>>> >>>>> opposition from Sangh Parivar organisations, >> who claim as custodians >>>>> >>>>> of Hindu places of worship. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The board and its corrupt administrators were >> not able to get their >>>>> >>>>> hand on the forest so far due to stringent >> central acts and Supreme >>>>> >>>>> Court rulings. But even the outgoing members >> are repeating their old >>>>> >>>>> slogan of `no development in Sabarimala would >> be possible without >>>>> >>>>> deforestation.' Unless the authorities >> change their attitude from a >>>>> >>>>> revenue-centred approach to a pilgrim centred >> aprach, there is not >>>>> >>>>> much hope. But they still repeat that >> development (read >>>>> >>>>> deforestation) could not be stopped for the >> sake of a few birds and >>>>> >>>>> animals. ``The board had neither faith in >> environmental protection >>>>> >>>>> nor in religious sanctity,'' opines >> Rajan Gurukkal. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Decongestion of base town Pampa by increasing >> facilities at a >>>>> >>>>> relatively distant town of Nilakkal, >> demolition of unauthorised >>>>> >>>>> concrete structures at Sannidhanam and Pampa, >> cleaning of the river, >>>>> >>>>> better waste disposal facilities and >> provisions of basic facilities >>>>> >>>>> for pilgrims without affecting ecology are the >> urgent needs of >>>>> >>>>> Sabarimala. The tigers and elephants must be >> protected. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If there is no mechanism to check the number >> of pilgrims, that would >>>>> >>>>> increase to two to three crores within years. >> Moderate elements >>>>> among >>>>> >>>>> the Hindu community are favouring a statutory >> body for Sabarimala in >>>>> >>>>> line with Tirumala-Thirupathy Devasthanam and >> Amarnath temple. >>>>> Such a >>>>> >>>>> body consisting of experts from different >> fields can change the >>>>> >>>>> course of priorities of the forest temple. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2. Amarnath Yatra: The Pilgrimage to Eco >> Disaster >>>>> >>>>> Gautam Navlakha >>>>> >>>>> >> http://www.kashmiraffairs.org/gautam_amarnath%20yatra.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Should one question the propriety of promoting >> pilgrimage in a >>>>> >>>>> ecologically fragile area or wink at it in the >> name of devotees >>>>> right >>>>> >>>>> to free movement and worship? This question >> comes to mind when >>>>> >>>>> looking at Amarnath Yatra especially the >> phenomenal increase in the >>>>> >>>>> number of pilgrims. This increase is not of >> few hundred or few >>>>> >>>>> thousand but runs into hundreds of thousands. >> There has been a >>>>> >>>>> doubling of the period for pilgrimage from one >> month to two this >>>>> year >>>>> >>>>> as well as forty times increase in number of >> pilgrims, from >>>>> 12,000 in >>>>> >>>>> 1989 to 450,000 in 2005 (this year it is set >> to cross 500,000) are >>>>> >>>>> cause for concern. In fact the actual period >> is longer because a >>>>> >>>>> fortnight before the official yatra is >> reserved for army men and >>>>> >>>>> their families to visit the Amarnath cave >> through ecologically more >>>>> >>>>> vulnerable Baltal route. Moreover, in order to >> provide security for >>>>> >>>>> pilgrims who come out in large number, the >> paramilitary forces have >>>>> >>>>> to be deployed in large number. The current >> deployment will be in >>>>> >>>>> excess of 20,000 for the entire period. Their >> presence and stay >>>>> >>>>> cannot but affect the rise in pollution >> levels. Inclement weather >>>>> too >>>>> >>>>> is an issue because rains in the plain means >> snow in the higher >>>>> >>>>> reaches. This results in crowding at the >> camps, straining services >>>>> >>>>> including disposal of waste. But worse things >> can happen as in 1996 >>>>> >>>>> when unexpected heavy snowfall resulted in >> death of 243 pilgrims and >>>>> >>>>> injuries to hundred more due to avalanche. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The State Pollution Control Board (SPCB), >> recently in a 37 page >>>>> >>>>> report warns that generation of waste by >> pilgrims, absence of waste >>>>> >>>>> disposal sites, open dumping of garbage, air >> pollution, sewage >>>>> >>>>> generated by hotels, yatri camps and local >> residential areas makes >>>>> >>>>> its way into Lidder river. The SPCB warned >> that waste generated by >>>>> >>>>> pilgrims more than the local average and >> primarily contains >>>>> plastics, >>>>> >>>>> polythene and leftover food packets all along >> the route. >>>>> According to >>>>> >>>>> their calculation 55,000 kgs of plastic waste >> is generated every day >>>>> >>>>> during the pilgrimage. Besides, thousands of >> open toilets erected >>>>> >>>>> along the banks of Lidder river ensures that >> effluents enter the >>>>> >>>>> river. Thousands of vehicles ply up and down >> the mountains around >>>>> >>>>> Pahalgam all the way up to Chandanwari spewing >> carbon monoxide. The >>>>> >>>>> Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB), which came >> into existence on >>>>> >>>>> February 21, 2001, has been dismissive of such >> claims. They assert >>>>> >>>>> that 230 pre-fabricated toilets being raised >> in Nunwan base camp and >>>>> >>>>> human waste disposal off in leach pits with >> micro-organism >>>>> technology >>>>> >>>>> using Bokaslin powder and other chemicals >> would take care of the >>>>> >>>>> problem. However, the issue is more than the >> supposedly effective >>>>> >>>>> modern methods to manage waste. The sheer >> presence of large mass of >>>>> >>>>> people is a cause for concern. Department of >> Science and technology >>>>> >>>>> through its principal investigator on >> glaciology has argued that >>>>> "the >>>>> >>>>> ecology, the environment and health of the >> glacier can be under >>>>> >>>>> severe threat in case the Baltal route to the >> Holy Cave was >>>>> >>>>> frequented by thousands of pilgrims". And >> pointed out that >>>>> "depletion >>>>> >>>>> and degradation (of glaciers) are the result >> of human breath, refuse >>>>> >>>>> and land erosion". (The Tribune July 5, >> 2005). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It is disconcerting to note that opening of >> Baltal route for >>>>> pilgrims >>>>> >>>>> on foot and those using helicopters has >> crossed several thousand >>>>> >>>>> every day. Apart from the Department of >> Science and Technology of >>>>> J&K >>>>> >>>>> government even the Nitish Sengupta committee, >> which was constituted >>>>> >>>>> to look into the deaths of 243 pilgrims in >> 1996 due to the >>>>> snowstorm, >>>>> >>>>> had recommended that number of yatris be >> restricted to 5000 per day >>>>> >>>>> for a period of one month and the total number >> of pilgrims be capped >>>>> >>>>> at1.5 lakhs. According to them Baltal route >> should allow 1500 >>>>> >>>>> pilgrims and Pahalgam 3500 per day. However, >> the General JR >>>>> Mukherjee >>>>> >>>>> committee, which looked into the cause of >> death of 35 people, due to >>>>> >>>>> cross fire, during the 2000 yatra, focussed on >> security arrangement >>>>> >>>>> and wanted the duration of the yatra to >> increase as security >>>>> scenario >>>>> >>>>> improved. But neither report looked at the >> environmental impact of >>>>> >>>>> the yatra. Thus when the SASB invokes the >> recommendations of the two >>>>> >>>>> committees what it does is to use it >> selectively and link the number >>>>> >>>>> of pilgrims to the issue of managing security >> for them. In this >>>>> sense >>>>> >>>>> they underplay the question whether the >> eco-system can bear heavy >>>>> >>>>> influx of pilgrims. This emphasis on >> encouraging larger number of >>>>> >>>>> pilgrims shows its impact on the environment >> in unexpected ways. >>>>> Such >>>>> >>>>> as the SASB contemplating "air >> conditioning" to preserve the shiva >>>>> >>>>> lingam from melting. The recent controversy >> over the pilgrims >>>>> >>>>> alleging that the SASB has been constructing >> the "snow lingam" is >>>>> now >>>>> >>>>> being passed off as due to change in the >> course of the water >>>>> channels >>>>> >>>>> after last year's earthquake and global >> warming. Without ruling this >>>>> >>>>> out human contribution to this phenomenon >> cannot be ignored when >>>>> >>>>> glaciers are rapidly receding. As a matter of >> fact yatra was never >>>>> >>>>> undertaken in June precisely because formation >> of shiva lingam does >>>>> >>>>> not always take place then. Incidentally the >> local people speak of >>>>> >>>>> "human" intervention in restoring >> what is a natural phenomenon, as >>>>> >>>>> something that has happened in the past too. >> This apart large number >>>>> >>>>> of pilgrims means that going gets tough as one >> draws close to the >>>>> >>>>> cave with traffic jam being the order of the >> day. At times pilgrims >>>>> >>>>> have to wait for hours for their turn. >> Increase in dust in >>>>> atmosphere >>>>> >>>>> too is caused by crowds of people as well as >> helicopter service. The >>>>> >>>>> dust raised is visible from long distance >> away. All this also means >>>>> >>>>> that individual pilgrims, that is other than >> VIPs, are disallowed >>>>> >>>>> from spending more than seconds inside the >> cave. Above all carbon >>>>> >>>>> dioxide levels shoot up warming the area all >> around. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It cannot be that the SASB is unaware of the >> environmental concerns. >>>>> >>>>> If it receives short shrift it is because the >> yatra has come to >>>>> >>>>> symbolise Indian government's >> determination to promote its claim in >>>>> >>>>> J&K. That pilgrimage is being heralded as >> victory against a movement >>>>> >>>>> demanding azadi from India is available in the >> news portal of Indian >>>>> >>>>> government, Press Information Bureau. It says >> that "yearning for >>>>> >>>>> moksha (salvation) can move the devotees to >> the challenging heights >>>>> >>>>> of Kashmir and will be a fitting gesture of >> solidarity with our >>>>> >>>>> valiant soldiers who have been fighting the >> enemy to defend our >>>>> >>>>> borders". >> (pib.nic.in/feature/feo799/f1507992.html). Thus what is >>>>> >>>>> otherwise merely a religious pilgrimage of the >> Hindus has been >>>>> >>>>> elevated to represent a patriotic enterprise. >> Besides, the SASB is >>>>> >>>>> headed by the Governor and his principal >> secretary is the CEO of the >>>>> >>>>> SASB. Thus the Government of India is clearly >> in charge of >>>>> organising >>>>> >>>>> the yatra. And it is the SASB which has been >> pushing for larger and >>>>> >>>>> larger numbers of pilgrims and challenging the >> right of the state >>>>> >>>>> government from interfering in anyway with the >> schedule announced by >>>>> >>>>> the SASB. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It is true that not everyone who goes to >> Amarnath accepts this >>>>> >>>>> association of religion with patriotism. But >> the fact of the matter >>>>> >>>>> is that official perception of pilgrimage as >> patriotic duty has >>>>> >>>>> allowed the communal fascist elements to join >> in organising their >>>>> >>>>> supporters. Little wonder that frequency of >> conflict between section >>>>> >>>>> of such 'pilgrims' and local >> population due to their obnoxious >>>>> >>>>> behaviour has shown an increase. What is >> equally disconcerting is >>>>> >>>>> that the SASB presided over by the Governor >> has also been engaged in >>>>> >>>>> controversial transactions. The CEO of SASB is >> the principal >>>>> >>>>> secretary to the Governor. Present CEO's >> wife, in her capacity of >>>>> >>>>> Principal secretary forest department granted >> permission to SASB on >>>>> >>>>> May 29, 2005 to use forest land. But this >> provision was not in >>>>> >>>>> accordance with the provision of J&K >> Forest Conservation Act 1997 >>>>> >>>>> and, therefore, the state government withdrew >> the order. However, >>>>> >>>>> thanks to a stay order by a division bench of >> the J&K High Court the >>>>> >>>>> withdrawal of permission to occupy forest >> land, was suspended. Any >>>>> >>>>> visitor to Pahalgam can observe how this >> forest land is being >>>>> cleared >>>>> >>>>> to setup camps for the yatris. In fact now the >> SASB has asked the >>>>> >>>>> state government to give them land in the >> radius of 5kms of the >>>>> cave. >>>>> >>>>> This arouses local passions precisely because >> Indian security forces >>>>> >>>>> and other entities have transferred large >> tracts of land to house >>>>> >>>>> camps for security force personnel, or for >> central projects, as well >>>>> >>>>> as for schools which are run by army among >> others. Even a pro-Indian >>>>> >>>>> National Conference party has protested such >> transfers of land since >>>>> >>>>> 1989. Not very far from the camp for the >> pilgrims in Pahalgam, in >>>>> >>>>> Lidru (opposite Kulan village) what locals >> describe as one of the >>>>> >>>>> finest meadows, spread over 550 kanals (one >> kanal=one eighth of >>>>> acre) >>>>> >>>>> in area, has been given to the army to run a >> school! Local >>>>> population >>>>> >>>>> feels helpless at being unable to stop this. >> Therefore, when SASB >>>>> >>>>> wants large tract of land transferred to it >> under the claim of >>>>> >>>>> providing accommodation for lakhs of pilgrims >> it must be weighed >>>>> >>>>> against this local concern. Were the numbers >> of pilgrims to be >>>>> >>>>> brought down the pressing need for >> transferring large areas to SASB >>>>> >>>>> or for providing carpet security and thus >> deployment of force, >>>>> can be >>>>> >>>>> brought down. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This apart the SASB has also been involved in >> other controversial >>>>> >>>>> acts. One such was the recent attempt by the >> SASB to bring down the >>>>> >>>>> involvement of local people in the yatra. When >> on June 5, 2006 the >>>>> >>>>> local pro-India Peoples' Democratic Party >> (PDP) claimed that SASB >>>>> was >>>>> >>>>> ignoring livelihood of locals, the SASB >> countered by claiming that >>>>> >>>>> such criticism would generate controversy and >> thus "jeopardise" >>>>> >>>>> tourism in Kashmir. Quite apart from the fact >> that promotion of >>>>> >>>>> pilgrimage for commerce flies in the face of >> proclaimed concern for >>>>> >>>>> people's faith PDP pointed out that if >> local porters and ponywallahs >>>>> >>>>> can strike work at Vaishnodevi Shrine against >> the (mis)management of >>>>> >>>>> the Shri Vaishnodevi Shrine Board (SVDSB) and >> seek support from >>>>> local >>>>> >>>>> Congress leaders then what is wrong if local >> people from Pahalgam >>>>> and >>>>> >>>>> Kangan areas seek their help to protest >> against the practises of >>>>> SASB >>>>> >>>>> which discriminate against them. In fact the >> Pithoo Workers Union at >>>>> >>>>> Katra have protested the suspension of six of >> their leaders, alleged >>>>> >>>>> manhandling by SVDSB officials and demanded >> recall of its additional >>>>> >>>>> CEO. Neither the Governor as head of SVDSB nor >> the Board issued any >>>>> >>>>> statement chastising the Congress party! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Arguably, when yatra was halted between >> 1991-96 due to threat of >>>>> >>>>> section of the militants it played into the >> hands of the extreme >>>>> >>>>> right wing elements in Indian society who have >> since then become an >>>>> >>>>> integral part of mobilising large numbers of >> pilgrims. Thus a >>>>> form of >>>>> >>>>> competitive communalism came into play. Thus >> when section of the >>>>> >>>>> militants represented earlier by Harkatul >> Ansar and now Lashkar-e- >>>>> >>>>> Taiyyaba or Jaish-e-Mohammed threaten to >> disrupt the pilgrimage it >>>>> >>>>> only gets the backs up of the devout Hindus >> opens them to vitriol of >>>>> >>>>> the rabidly anti-Muslim Vishwa Hindu Parishad >> (VHP), Shiv Sena etc. >>>>> >>>>> and accentuates the communal divide. However, >> it is equally >>>>> important >>>>> >>>>> to note the actual fact that more people have >> died in yatra due to >>>>> >>>>> inclement weather and cross fire than at the >> hands of the militants. >>>>> >>>>> Besides, the main indigenous militant >> organisation Hizbul Mujahideen >>>>> >>>>> has always supported the yatra and has >> consistently demonstrated its >>>>> >>>>> opposition towards those who have tried to >> disrupt the yatra. >>>>> >>>>> Moreover, prior to constituting SASB the state >> government, local >>>>> >>>>> people and social activists provided aid and >> assistance to the >>>>> >>>>> pilgrims. However, threat of environmental >> damage has become a >>>>> matter >>>>> >>>>> of utmost concern because the central >> government under the cover of >>>>> >>>>> SASB remains unrelenting in its pursuit of >> ever larger numbers to >>>>> >>>>> come for pilgrimage. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In a way the Amarnath yatra illustrates the >> way in which the Indian >>>>> >>>>> government injects communalism in our body >> politic. And also >>>>> >>>>> represents how secularism in India has been >> perverted to mean state >>>>> >>>>> patronage of religion/s. This patronage is not >> equitably distributed >>>>> >>>>> since Hindus outnumber others by more than >> eight times. Which is to >>>>> >>>>> say that between un-equals equality ends up >> promoting Hindu >>>>> religious >>>>> >>>>> practises. In Amarnath yatra, in fact, the >> India government even >>>>> >>>>> discarded its pretended neutrality by >> publicising the yatra as a >>>>> >>>>> patriotic duty! Consequently, the likelihood >> of Amarnath pilgrimage >>>>> >>>>> getting mired in controversy, over >> environmental damage and >>>>> >>>>> eventually feeding into further alienation of >> people because they >>>>> can >>>>> >>>>> do little to save damage to their lived >> environment, has increased. >>>>> >>>>> Trouble is the Indian government cares little >> for people and prefers >>>>> >>>>> to pander to the extreme rightwing by >> projecting the yatra as a >>>>> >>>>> patriotic enterprise to boost the morale of >> the Indian paramilitary >>>>> >>>>> forces. The very same force which the local >> population regards as >>>>> >>>>> symbol of their oppression. Thus a bigger mess >> is in the making >>>>> right >>>>> >>>>> before our own eyes. >>>>> >>>>> --------------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>>> >>>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>>> >>>>> Raqs Media Collective >>>>> >>>>> shuddha at sarai.net >>>>> >>>>> www.sarai.net >>>>> >>>>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media >> and the city. >>>>> >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> >>> ... >>> >>> [Message clipped] >>> >>> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject >> header. >> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 14:38:09 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 14:38:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70807010154y3f9631ebn88b5cb7fe9fd530a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry, you need to add the source after the quote. Who are you quoting? Anyway I don¹t understand the point of this. Are you saying that only Hindu lands were confiscated in the execution of the Naya Kashmir manifesto? That is simply not true. On 7/1/08 2:24 PM, "Pawan Durani" wrote: > ".........................In the blue-print of 'New Kashmir', the land reforms > were envisaged as a key to freeing the peasantry from the thraldom of > feudalism acting as an obstacle in their onward march to freedom from > exploitation and abject poverty. Designed to create a support-base in the > Muslim peasantry of Kashmir, the National Conference leadership slyly > presented the Hindus as the only section possessing enormous landed property, > which was many leagues away from truth. In the province of Kashmir, if there > were some Hindu landlords, there were equally Muslim landlords who were more > ruthless in their treatment of the Muslim tenants, ever tightening their noose > on them only to reduce them to abysmal depths of want and deprivation. The > Muslim cruelty heaped on the Muslim tenants was never highlighted by the > National Conference leaders, who stoutly opposed the Kisan Sabha organised by > Late Pandit Prem Nath Bazaz under the leadership of Abdul Salam Yatu.3 Reasons > for this might have been political, but the fact remains that the Radical > Humanists working under the overall guidance and leadership of Shree Bazaz > were the first to focus on the problems confronting the Muslim peasantry of > Kashmir. The Muslim leadership of the National Conference aroused hatred > against the Kashmirian Hindus, who, as per them, were the oppressors of the > Muslims. It never focussed on the extraordinary precedent set by Pandit Jia > Lal Tamiri,4 a top freedom fighter known for his proverbial honesty and Pandit > Durga Prashad Dhar,5 a central minister, who had given their ancestral lands > to their tenants much before land reforms were enacted and implemented in the > State. Have the Muslims of Kashmir to offer such a unique example standing > comparison to the one set by two bright sons of the Kashmirian Hindu > community......................." > > > > > On 7/1/08, S. Jabbar wrote: >> Come on, Pawan, the Land to the Tiller movement was not directed against the >> Pandits only. It affected, equally, rich Muslim landlords, many of whom >> were so-called Pirs. This gave fillip to the bakras who were then strongly >> supported by wealthy Muslims. Thus the class divide between the shers & the >> bakras. >> >> >> On 7/1/08 10:17 AM, "Pawan Durani" wrote: >> >>> > Shuddha , >> >> I hope you have an idea of how land belonging to Kashmiri Hindus >>> > were handed >> over to muslims in Kashmir under the garb of land reforms . >> >> I >>> > know that is very convenient for you to ignore ... >> >> Pawan >> >> >> On 6/30/08, >>> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >>> > >>> > Dear Pawan, >>> > >>> > >>> > That >>> > is your opinion, not a substantiated fact. As far as I have seen, >>> > there has >>> > not been a single statement made against Hindu pligrims by anyone >>> > in the >>> > leadership or the constituency of the movement against land transfer >>> > in >>> > Kashmir. And until such a statement is made, we cannot say that it arises> >>> > out of a 'resentment towards hindu pligrims'. People across the spectrum >>> of >>> > >>> > political opinion in Kashmir have taken pains to point out that they >>> welcome >>> > >>> > pilgrims. And the question of the acquisition of land has nothing to do >>> with >>> > >>> > pilgrims. There is a long history of arbitrary acquisition and occupation >>> of >>> > >>> > land, including orchards, schools, meadows, pastures, grazing comons and >>> > >>> > private homes in Kashmir, especially by the Armed Forces and >>> paramilitaries, >>> > >>> > it is possible that the movement we see crystallizes the pent up feeling >>> of >>> > >>> > anger against this long history of land acquisition. >>> > >>> > >>> > An audit of the >>> > impact of land acquisition on the ecology and social fabric >>> > of Kashmir (on >>> > both sides of the line of control) is still pending. >>> > >>> > >>> > best >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Shuddha >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On 30-Jun-08, at 9:24 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >>> > >>> > Dear >>> > Shuddha , >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > While I may trust your belief in ecological fallout , i >>> > completely disagree >>> > with your understanding that the issue is not about the >>> > resentment towards >>> > hindu pligrims. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > It is all about that , non >>> > tolerance towards so called hindus or what they >>> > love to >>> > call...."Kufr". >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Pawan >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On 6/30/08, Shuddhabrata >>> > Sengupta wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> Dear Pawan, >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Just because a >>> > terrain does not have trees, or that the altitude it is >>>> >> located in happens >>> > to be above the treeline, does not mean that it is not >>>> >> ecologically >>> > sensitive. >>>> >> >>>> >> Often, it is precisely terrain of this nature, such as for >>> > instance is at >>>> >> the vicinity of the mouth of the Gomukh glacier above >>> > Gangotri,(again above >>>> >> the treeline) that is extremely fragile and needs >>> > very careful nurturing. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> I know for a fact that the ecosystem of the >>> > Gomukh glacial region is very >>>> >> badly threatened because of the completely >>> > haphazard way in which access to >>>> >> this region (and the logistics of >>> > pilgrimage and tourism) has been managed. >>>> >> I can very easily see that >>> > something similar can happen in the case of >>>> >> Amarnath. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> I would urge >>> > you not to make the discussion of this question into a >>>> >> 'Hindu' question. It >>> > is not one, it is about the way in which State managed, >>>> >> so called, 'Temple >>> > Development Boards', enter into schemes to grab land, and >>>> >> about the >>> > ecological consequences of their land-grabbing propensities. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> You >>> > might recall that some months back you tried to pose the question of >>>> >> the >>> > building of a shipping canal between India and Sri Lanka as a matter of >>>> >> >>> > hurting Hindu sentiments. I endorsed your opposition to the so called >>>> >> >>> > 'Sethu-Samudram Shipping Channel' scheme, because to me it represented a >>>> >> >>> > threat to a fragile marine ecosystem, not on the basis of its alleged >>> > injury >>>> >> to Hindu sentiments. I also pointed out to you and to others on the >>> > list >>>> >> that the protectors of Hindutva, while proposing a Panama Canal >>> > style >>>> >> waterway cutting through the apex of the Deccan peninsula as an >>> > alternative >>>> >> to the 'Sethu-Samudram' plan were also proposing what was >>> > certainly a >>>> >> blueprint for an ecological disaster. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Opposition to >>> > the proposed (and now rescinded) land grab proposal by the >>>> >> SASB in the >>> > Amarnath case does not automatically translate into partisanship >>>> >> across the >>> > Hindu-Muslim question in Kashmir. Those who translate it as such, >>>> >> whether >>> > they are Hindu, or Muslim, are needlessly confusing a >>>> >> straightforward >>> > matter by bringing their own secterian biases to bear on the >>>> >> issue. No one >>> > should be misled by such attempts at confusion. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> best >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > Shuddha >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> On 30-Jun-08, at 4:44 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > Hello Shuddha , >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Lemme just inform everyone that , the land may have >>> > belonged to Forest >>>> >> >>>> >> Department , but there is no single tree over >>> > there. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Even when you reach Amarntah , there are no trees over there , >>> > becuase of >>>> >> >>>> >> high altitude. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> I visited the site, Baltal , two >>> > years back. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Unfortunately the issue is not about ecology ..... the >>> > way it has been >>>> >> >>>> >> treated is a pure indicator that anything related to >>> > Hindus is not >>>> >> tolerable >>>> >> >>>> >> in Kashmir, and proves once again that it is >>> > not "freedom" but Islamic >>>> >> >>>> >> fanaticism which rules the shot in >>> > Kashmir. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Pawan >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> On 6/30/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> > wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Dear Sonia, Dear Rashneek, dear >>> > all, >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Thank you, Sonia and Rashneek for the debate on the Amarnath >>> > Yatra >>>> >> >>>> >> issue. The question of temple boards and their closeness to >>> > power, >>>> >> >>>> >> and their lust for acquiring forest lands is not unique to >>> > Kashmir. >>>> >> >>>> >> It also happens, as you will see below, (see the report - >>> > Sabarimala: >>>> >> >>>> >> The Faith in Spate, by K.A. Shaji) in distant Kerala. The >>> > ruling left >>>> >> >>>> >> front government in Kerala is as involved in this game as >>> > anyone >>>> >> >>>> >> else, because 'Temple Boards' are gold-mines and no state >>> > government >>>> >> >>>> >> wants to close an operation that earns them the gold that can >>> > be >>>> >> >>>> >> mined in these gold mines. I am appending below a report on the >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > question of the Sabarimala Temple boards desire for even more >>>> >> >>>> >> reserved >>> > forest land. The story is remarkably resonant of the >>>> >> >>>> >> Amarnath issue. A >>> > local, highly culturally specific, syncretic >>>> >> >>>> >> pilgrimage turning into the >>> > road-show of a revivalist 'Hinduism', >>>> >> >>>> >> with lucrative revenue >>> > spin-offs. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> I live in an area in Delhi where I have witnessed every >>> > year, for the >>>> >> >>>> >> past few years - 'Chalo Amarnath Chalo' (Let's go to >>> > Amarnath) >>>> >> >>>> >> posters and banners being put up by local RSS functionaries. >>> > And >>>> >> >>>> >> there are active fundraising drives which culminate in a cavalcade >>> > of >>>> >> >>>> >> Tata Sumos with the local 'Youth' blaring 'bhajans' from their >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > booming auto-sound systems taking off to go do 'darshan' of the >>>> >> >>>> >> melting >>> > lingam. I don't think they (the Sumo Pilgrims of my >>>> >> >>>> >> neighbourhood) >>> > really care whether or not the forests of Kashmir go >>>> >> >>>> >> up in >>> > smoke. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> I also know that the Sabarimala pilgrimage has been twisted >>> > out of >>>> >> >>>> >> shape in a similar way, both by Hindutva enthusiasts, and >>> > by >>>> >> >>>> >> construction contractors close to the ruling Left Front. >>> > Fragile >>>> >> >>>> >> forests can barely sustain the burden of so much sudden >>> > faith. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Incidentally, revivalist Hindus are by no means alone in >>> > their >>>> >> >>>> >> disregard for the local heritage and environment. The ruling >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > dispensation in Saudi Arabia has effectively turned the pilgrimage >>>> >> >>>> >> sites >>> > of Mecca and Medina into an air-conditioned cultural wasteland. >>>> >> >>>> >> it has >>> > systematically destroyed shrines that were considered holy by >>>> >> >>>> >> millions >>> > of Muslim pilgrims, especially from South Asia, and >>>> >> >>>> >> completely >>> > transformed the intricate urban fabric of Mecca and >>>> >> >>>> >> Medina. There is a >>> > long history of protest, including in India, by >>>> >> >>>> >> Muslims against the way >>> > in which the Saudi Government, in cohorts >>>> >> >>>> >> with the Wahabi establishment >>> > has wrecked the topography of Mecca and >>>> >> >>>> >> Medina. Similarly, the Israeli >>> > state's policy of expansion, through >>>> >> >>>> >> settlements, and building high >>> > security segregated roads that cut >>>> >> >>>> >> through the west bank of the Jordan >>> > river are often camouflaged under >>>> >> >>>> >> an appeal to scriptural sanction for >>> > 'Greater' or 'Eretz' Israel. >>>> >> >>>> >> There is a great deal of money to be made >>> > in pilgrimage, and it >>>> >> >>>> >> affords everybody an opportunity to make some >>> > quick transformations >>>> >> >>>> >> of the landscape in the name of 'infrastructure >>> > development' and >>>> >> >>>> >> 'settlement' , both of which are euphemisms for >>> > speculation in real >>>> >> >>>> >> estate. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> I am also appending a detailed >>> > report on the environmental impact of >>>> >> >>>> >> what was proposed by the erstwhile >>> > governor Gen (Retd) Sinha of Jammu >>>> >> >>>> >> and Kashmir for the Amarnath Yatra by >>> > Gautam Navlakha that appeared >>>> >> >>>> >> recently in the website of a journal >>> > called Kashmir Affairs. Finally, >>>> >> >>>> >> it is not my case that the acquisition >>> > of land for the Amarnath Board >>>> >> >>>> >> (SASB) is wrong, and the acquisition of >>> > land for the so-called >>>> >> >>>> >> 'Mughal Road', which has been pointed out by >>> > Aditya Raj Kaul, in a >>>> >> >>>> >> recent post is wrong. Both are equally disastrous >>> > from the >>>> >> >>>> >> environmental point of view. And the silence of political >>> > formations >>>> >> >>>> >> (of all persuasions) on the environmental impact of the >>> > revived >>>> >> >>>> >> Mughal Road and their recent discovery of environmentalism (in >>> > the >>>> >> >>>> >> case of the Amarnath land transfer issue) does make their >>> > commitment >>>> >> >>>> >> to environmentalism somewhat suspect. The PDP's stance >>> > is >>>> >> >>>> >> particularly hypocritical, as the original decision has been >>> > ratified >>>> >> >>>> >> by its own minister, (for Forest) in the (Indian Held) J&K >>> > state >>>> >> >>>> >> government. Still, even if the commitment of all the protagonists >>> > is >>>> >> >>>> >> suspect, I must say that I have rarely seen a popular movement >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > reverse a state-driven decision on an 'environmental' issue, and the >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > recent success of the agitation in Kashmir (whatever be the motives >>>> >> >>>> >> that >>> > impelled it) which has resulted in a reversal of the Land >>>> >> >>>> >> Transfer issue >>> > is something to be grateful for. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> These are issues that need to be >>> > seen quite separately from secterian >>>> >> >>>> >> concerns. I hope this debate can >>> > help us see them in that way. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> best >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Shuddha >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > ------------------- >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> 1. Sabarimala: The Faith in Spate >>>> >> >>>> >> by K A >>> > Shaji >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> http://www.boloji.com/society/115.htm >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Legend has it >>> > that when Lord Ayyappa set out to seek solitude, he >>>> >> >>>> >> settled upon >>> > Sabarimala. Its sylvan surroundings and undulating >>>> >> >>>> >> terrain had made it >>> > an ideal retreat for the bachelor god. The >>>> >> >>>> >> pristine monsoon forests had >>> > wrapped like an ornament around his >>>> >> >>>> >> hermitage at the top of the hill. >>> > The Lord believed to have called >>>> >> >>>> >> the area with tranquil atmosphere as >>> > his poonkavanam (sacred forest). >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> A shrine inside the forest and a >>> > deity who chose the calm ambience of >>>> >> >>>> >> hills and valleys has few parallels >>> > in the country and outside. But >>>> >> >>>> >> now, it seems, all of the glories of >>> > Sabarimala were a thing of the >>>> >> >>>> >> past. When mythology meets present-day >>> > reality, Sabarimala is no more >>>> >> >>>> >> a chosen abode of the hermit God. During >>> > January-February each year, >>>> >> >>>> >> more than 50 million devotees, as claimed by >>> > the temple authorities, >>>> >> >>>> >> are thronging this forest temple for annual >>> > pilgrimage, putting the >>>> >> >>>> >> fragile ecology of the region under severe >>> > stress. Now, the holy hill >>>> >> >>>> >> is a synonym of increasing inflow of >>> > pilgrims, inadequate >>>> >> >>>> >> infrastructure, a devastated environment and a >>> > hapless wildlife. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> While the entire hill and the adjacent river Pampa, >>> > the third largest >>>> >> >>>> >> river in Kerala, are stinking due to sewage pollution >>> > and >>>> >> >>>> >> accumulation of garbage, the situation is not much different in >>> > the >>>> >> >>>> >> administrative and spiritual circles of the hill shrine. First, >>> > it >>>> >> >>>> >> was a controversy involving Kannada film actress Jayamala and a >>> > group >>>> >> >>>> >> of orthodox Hindus, who questioned her claim of touching the idol >>> > of >>>> >> >>>> >> the bachelor god defying the barricades meant for preventing >>> > sexually >>>> >> >>>> >> active women from entering the hill shrine. Then one of the >>> > highly >>>> >> >>>> >> revered traditional priests of the temple was robbed of a >>> > large >>>> >> >>>> >> amount of money and gold ornaments during his visit to the house >>> > of a >>>> >> >>>> >> woman engaged in flesh trade by a mafia gang. And now, it is the >>> > turn >>>> >> >>>> >> of aged father of a senior priest to allege that his son is >>> > under >>>> >> >>>> >> influence of a powerful Ezhava community leader with shadowy >>> > nature >>>> >> >>>> >> and the leader's followers are using his son to pocket the >>> > temple >>>> >> >>>> >> money. In the meantime, the Left Front Government has disbanded >>> > the >>>> >> >>>> >> existing administrative body of the temple citing corruption at >>> > high >>>> >> >>>> >> level and is preparing to enact a legislation to keep the >>> > corrupt >>>> >> >>>> >> community leaders out of the administrative body >>> > forever. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> On monetary grounds, the temple is the third largest in the >>> > country, >>>> >> >>>> >> standing very close to Tirupathi and Guruvayur. The >>> > cash-strapped >>>> >> >>>> >> Kerala Government, despite its leftist moorings, is >>> > depending very >>>> >> >>>> >> much on the income from the temple to meet salary needs >>> > of its >>>> >> >>>> >> employees. In order to increase the revenue, the successive >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > governments and the so-called proponents of development are >>>> >> >>>> >> vociferous >>> > of implementing multi-crore construction plans in >>>> >> >>>> >> Sabarimala clearing >>> > forests and building a concrete jungle in its >>>> >> >>>> >> place. But nobody in the >>> > spiritual and administrative levels of the >>>> >> >>>> >> temple as well as the >>> > government establishment are apprehensive of >>>> >> >>>> >> the increasing level of >>> > pollution and the extreme level of >>>> >> >>>> >> deforestation. Their focus is >>> > entangled only in the growing number of >>>> >> >>>> >> controversies and the >>> > commissions to be available after the beginning >>>> >> >>>> >> of the construction >>> > work. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Located about 467 metres above sea level, the Sabarimala temple >>> > is >>>> >> >>>> >> surrounded by 18 hills and situated inside Periyar Tiger Reserve, >>> > one >>>> >> >>>> >> of the few safe havens for tigers in the country. According to >>> > bird >>>> >> >>>> >> watcher B.Sethumadhavan, as many as 2000 species of flowering >>> > plants, >>>> >> >>>> >> endemic and medicinal, have been identified among the region's >>> > flora. >>>> >> >>>> >> `` About 63 species of mammals, some of them endangered like >>> > tigers, >>>> >> >>>> >> elephants and lion tailed macaque live here. So far, 223 species >>> > of >>>> >> >>>> >> birds and 45 species of reptiles including King Cobra have been >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > identified in this area,'' he said. The ever- expanding number of >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > pilgrims and mindless construction works are posing severe threat to >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > their very survival. Devotees of a Lord, who believed to have loved >>>> >> >>>> >> the >>> > flora and fauna and their safekeeping, are now on a rampage in >>>> >> >>>> >> the name >>> > of development forcing the wildlife to move out of their >>>> >> >>>> >> traditional >>> > habitat. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> As per legends, the vehicle of Lord Ayyappa is tiger. >>> > But, >>>> >> >>>> >> astonishingly, neither the tiger nor the surrounding >>> > evergreen >>>> >> >>>> >> forests do not come in the list of priorities before the >>> > |Travancore >>>> >> >>>> >> Devaswam Board, which administers the shrine. ``There was an >>> > increase >>>> >> >>>> >> of 35 per cent in revenue while comparing with last year during >>> > the >>>> >> >>>> >> November-December period. In the number of visitors, the increase >>> > is >>>> >> >>>> >> of 19 per cent. These figures show the need for immediate >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > developmental works in Sabarimala. But there are agencies like Forest >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > Department which cry for tigers and forests,'' alleges G.Raman Nair, >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > outgoing president of the board. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> However, environmentalists and >>> > forest officials are countering the >>>> >> >>>> >> allegation. ``The development works >>> > so far at Pampa have made it >>>> >> >>>> >> impossible a soul-filling holy dip in river >>> > Pampa. At least, two >>>> >> >>>> >> scientific studies conducted by Government's own >>> > agencies had found >>>> >> >>>> >> that landslips and tremors would take place at the >>> > holy hillock any >>>> >> >>>> >> time largely because of the extensive concrete flooring >>> > at the temple >>>> >> >>>> >> premises. The devaswam is only interested in money making. >>> > It has no >>>> >> >>>> >> concern for the impending dangers for both nature and >>> > devotees,'' >>>> >> >>>> >> pointed out Sumesh Mangalassery, a member of the >>> > environmental group >>>> >> >>>> >> Kabani. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> According to Sumesh, a panel of >>> > Kerala Legislature on environment led >>>> >> >>>> >> by RSP leader A V Thamarakshan had >>> > submitted 32 proposals to the >>>> >> >>>> >> Devaswam Board to protect Sabarimala >>> > around five years back. But none >>>> >> >>>> >> of them were acceptable to the board. >>> > Even the suggestions of Kerala >>>> >> >>>> >> State Pollution Control Board to minimise >>> > the pollution of river >>>> >> >>>> >> Pampa were paid scant regard by the board. A >>> > visit by Tehelka to >>>> >> >>>> >> Sabarimala found that river Pampa continues to >>> > remain the main victim >>>> >> >>>> >> of the callous attitude of the authorities. It >>> > gets choked in the >>>> >> >>>> >> temple area as solid waste including human excreta; >>> > plastic bags, >>>> >> >>>> >> empty water bottles and coconut husks block the free flow >>> > of water. >>>> >> >>>> >> About 35 million people took a holy dip in the river between >>> > November >>>> >> >>>> >> and January, which is the major source of drinking water for >>> > three >>>> >> >>>> >> districts. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> According to a study by the pollution control >>> > board, the total >>>> >> >>>> >> coliform count recorded at the river portion close to >>> > Sabarimala is >>>> >> >>>> >> about 1,14,000 per 100 millilitres (ML) during the peak >>> > of >>>> >> >>>> >> pilgrimage. Just before the pilgrimage season, it is merely 380 >>> > per >>>> >> >>>> >> 100 ml- well below the permissible limits of 500 per 100 ml. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > According to local people, the overflow of human faeces from sceptic >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > tanks around the temple stands the major reason of the pollution of >>>> >> >>>> >> the >>> > river. ``More than 3,000 temporary toilets are functioning close >>>> >> >>>> >> to the >>> > temple in addition to about 600 permanent toilets. The >>>> >> >>>> >> capacity of the >>> > sewerage treatment plant is very limited,'' pointed >>>> >> >>>> >> out K.Anirudhan of >>> > Sabarimala Samrakshana Samithy. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Most of the experts, who had >>> > conducted studies on the pollution and >>>> >> >>>> >> environmental problems prevailing >>> > in Sabarimala, point to the need of >>>> >> >>>> >> regulating the ever- increasing >>> > number of pilgrims. ``Sabarimala is >>>> >> >>>> >> bursting at the seams with millions >>> > of devotees now. Thirty or forty >>>> >> >>>> >> years ago, only around 50,000 pilgrims >>> > visited the temple. Today, the >>>> >> >>>> >> number is fifty million and is rising at >>> > the rate of 20 per cent >>>> >> >>>> >> every year. The ever-swelling flow resulted in a >>> > major mishap on >>>> >> >>>> >> January 14, 1999, when 100 pilgrims died in a stampede >>> > at the site. >>>> >> >>>> >> Indications are that Sabarimala is a disaster waiting to be >>> > happen,'' >>>> >> >>>> >> warns noted Kerala based environmentalist P K Uthaman. >>> > According to >>>> >> >>>> >> him, almost two thousand tonnes of human waste are >>> > deposited in crude >>>> >> >>>> >> earth pits and outside in Sabarimala every year. >>> > These wastes are >>>> >> >>>> >> finding their way into not only the river Pampa but >>> > also to river >>>> >> >>>> >> Periyar by underground as well as over ground rivulets, >>> > posing a >>>> >> >>>> >> threat great health hazard for the pilgrims as well as those >>> > living >>>> >> >>>> >> downstream. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> In addition, the lack of post pilgrimage >>> > cleaning drives often result >>>> >> >>>> >> in unabated flow of hazardous waste into >>> > the rivers. The temple area >>>> >> >>>> >> has already been converted into a concrete >>> > jungle where guesthouses >>>> >> >>>> >> and other structures are constructed >>> > haphazardly all around. They are >>>> >> >>>> >> meant for temple officials, priests, >>> > VVIPs and police personnel. >>>> >> >>>> >> According to M.Gopal, a pilgrim from >>> > Bangalore who visited Sabarimala >>>> >> >>>> >> this year, human excreta and plastic >>> > waste were found strewn just >>>> >> >>>> >> outside the Sannidhanam (the main building >>> > of the temple). As per >>>> >> >>>> >> data available from forest department, over 2.5 >>> > lakh empty plastic >>>> >> >>>> >> bottles of packaged water were collected from inside >>> > the tiger >>>> >> >>>> >> reserve. The number of tetra packs collected would come around >>> > 4.5 >>>> >> >>>> >> lakh. The temple complex of the hermit, who believed in >>> > renunciation >>>> >> >>>> >> of earthly attractions, is now filled with commercial shops >>> > selling >>>> >> >>>> >> products ranging from gold ornaments to dress materials. All >>> > these >>>> >> >>>> >> shops were constructed by clearing forests. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> ``The total >>> > time available for darsan as of now is a total of 1431 >>>> >> >>>> >> hours, i.e. >>> > 515160 seconds. If a darsan goes on one at a time basis >>>> >> >>>> >> and a devotee >>> > gets a second, the total strength of the pilgrims can >>>> >> >>>> >> only be 5,15, 160 >>> > per year. If ten people could somehow cluster >>>> >> >>>> >> together per second for >>> > darsan, the maximum number would be >>>> >> >>>> >> 51,51,600,'' points out a document >>> > prepared by |School of Social >>>> >> >>>> >> Sciences at Mahatma Gandhi University on >>> > behalf of Kerla Forest >>>> >> >>>> >> Department. The document also questions the >>> > claims of the board that >>>> >> >>>> >> over 50 million people visit the temple >>> > annually. But anyway, the >>>> >> >>>> >> number of pilgrims' visting Sabarimala is many >>> > times more than its >>>> >> >>>> >> capacity. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> ``The authorities must find out >>> > some mechanism to regulate the >>>> >> >>>> >> alarming increase in the number of >>> > pilgrims. Sabarimala is not only >>>> >> >>>> >> an environmental but also a social >>> > disaster,'' opined Dr.Rajan >>>> >> >>>> >> Gurukkal of School of Social Sciences. Now a >>> > day, the uncontrolled >>>> >> >>>> >> flow of pilgrims from various entry points is >>> > resulting in people >>>> >> >>>> >> swarming all around the protected sanctuary leading >>> > to man ­animal >>>> >> >>>> >> conflicts. Recently, an elephant trampled upon one >>> > pilgrim. Then it >>>> >> >>>> >> was found that the pilgrims were sleeping in the >>> > corridor used by the >>>> >> >>>> >> elephants for going to the river to drink water at >>> > the night. A large >>>> >> >>>> >> number of such corridors were already disrupted due >>> > to the >>>> >> >>>> >> construction works undertaken in the recent past. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > According to Sedumadhavan, the authorities are even paying scant >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > attention on the safety of pilgrims. As many as 12,000 litres of >>>> >> >>>> >> diesel >>> > are being stored just above the sannidhanam without any >>>> >> >>>> >> storage licence >>> > or safety parameters. They are also keeping a large >>>> >> >>>> >> number of crackers >>> > near the sanctum sanctoram without any safety >>>> >> >>>> >> concern. The only solution >>> > on the part of Trvancore Devaswom Board >>>> >> >>>> >> for all problems plaguing >>> > Sabarimala is denudation of nearby forests >>>> >> >>>> >> and setting up new amenities. >>> > According to Rajan Gurukkal, such an >>>> >> >>>> >> attempt would be disastrous as all >>> > the existing problems of >>>> >> >>>> >> Sabarimala can be viwed as the after effect of >>> > deforestation. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> The devaswam board has already ruined about 55.09 ha >>> > of forestland in >>>> >> >>>> >> the name of sabarimala development. In the opinion >>> > of >>>> >> >>>> >> environmentalists, they demand more forests to cut and smuggle >>> > out >>>> >> >>>> >> precious trees and construction of further concrete strctures >>> > with >>>> >> >>>> >> ulterior motives. Maintaining the sanctity of the shrine and >>> > the >>>> >> >>>> >> precious eco-system never appeared a priority before them. So >>> > far, >>>> >> >>>> >> the devaswam board was constituted once in five years by >>> > nomination >>>> >> >>>> >> of people with no administrative acumen at the behest of >>> > successive >>>> >> >>>> >> governments. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Rajan Gurukkal and his team at School >>> > of Social Sciences have >>>> >> >>>> >> prepared a long-term action plan for saving >>> > Sabarimala from the >>>> >> >>>> >> sequence of disasters in the offing. But the lobbies >>> > of corrupt and >>>> >> >>>> >> communal elements are not allowing the devaswam to look >>> > into them. >>>> >> >>>> >> Even the small step of Left Government in disbanding the >>> > existing >>>> >> >>>> >> devaswam committee is being interpreted as an attempt by >>> > atheists to >>>> >> >>>> >> interfere in Hindu religious matters. The move by left >>> > government to >>>> >> >>>> >> appoint experts in place of politicians at the board also >>> > facing >>>> >> >>>> >> opposition from Sangh Parivar organisations, who claim as >>> > custodians >>>> >> >>>> >> of Hindu places of worship. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> The board and its >>> > corrupt administrators were not able to get their >>>> >> >>>> >> hand on the forest so >>> > far due to stringent central acts and Supreme >>>> >> >>>> >> Court rulings. But even >>> > the outgoing members are repeating their old >>>> >> >>>> >> slogan of `no development >>> > in Sabarimala would be possible without >>>> >> >>>> >> deforestation.' Unless the >>> > authorities change their attitude from a >>>> >> >>>> >> revenue-centred approach to a >>> > pilgrim centred aprach, there is not >>>> >> >>>> >> much hope. But they still repeat >>> > that development (read >>>> >> >>>> >> deforestation) could not be stopped for the sake >>> > of a few birds and >>>> >> >>>> >> animals. ``The board had neither faith in >>> > environmental protection >>>> >> >>>> >> nor in religious sanctity,'' opines Rajan >>> > Gurukkal. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Decongestion of base town Pampa by increasing facilities at >>> > a >>>> >> >>>> >> relatively distant town of Nilakkal, demolition of unauthorised >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > concrete structures at Sannidhanam and Pampa, cleaning of the river, >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > better waste disposal facilities and provisions of basic facilities >>>> >> >>>> >> for >>> > pilgrims without affecting ecology are the urgent needs of >>>> >> >>>> >> Sabarimala. >>> > The tigers and elephants must be protected. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> If there is no mechanism >>> > to check the number of pilgrims, that would >>>> >> >>>> >> increase to two to three >>> > crores within years. Moderate elements among >>>> >> >>>> >> the Hindu community are >>> > favouring a statutory body for Sabarimala in >>>> >> >>>> >> line with >>> > Tirumala-Thirupathy Devasthanam and Amarnath temple. Such a >>>> >> >>>> >> body >>> > consisting of experts from different fields can change the >>>> >> >>>> >> course of >>> > priorities of the forest temple. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> ----------- >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> 2. Amarnath >>> > Yatra: The Pilgrimage to Eco Disaster >>>> >> >>>> >> Gautam Navlakha >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > http://www.kashmiraffairs.org/gautam_amarnath%20yatra.html >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Should one >>> > question the propriety of promoting pilgrimage in a >>>> >> >>>> >> ecologically fragile >>> > area or wink at it in the name of devotees right >>>> >> >>>> >> to free movement and >>> > worship? This question comes to mind when >>>> >> >>>> >> looking at Amarnath Yatra >>> > especially the phenomenal increase in the >>>> >> >>>> >> number of pilgrims. This >>> > increase is not of few hundred or few >>>> >> >>>> >> thousand but runs into hundreds of >>> > thousands. There has been a >>>> >> >>>> >> doubling of the period for pilgrimage from >>> > one month to two this year >>>> >> >>>> >> as well as forty times increase in number of >>> > pilgrims, from 12,000 in >>>> >> >>>> >> 1989 to 450,000 in 2005 (this year it is set to >>> > cross 500,000) are >>>> >> >>>> >> cause for concern. In fact the actual period is >>> > longer because a >>>> >> >>>> >> fortnight before the official yatra is reserved for >>> > army men and >>>> >> >>>> >> their families to visit the Amarnath cave through >>> > ecologically more >>>> >> >>>> >> vulnerable Baltal route. Moreover, in order to provide >>> > security for >>>> >> >>>> >> pilgrims who come out in large number, the paramilitary >>> > forces have >>>> >> >>>> >> to be deployed in large number. The current deployment will >>> > be in >>>> >> >>>> >> excess of 20,000 for the entire period. Their presence and >>> > stay >>>> >> >>>> >> cannot but affect the rise in pollution levels. Inclement weather >>> > too >>>> >> >>>> >> is an issue because rains in the plain means snow in the >>> > higher >>>> >> >>>> >> reaches. This results in crowding at the camps, straining >>> > services >>>> >> >>>> >> including disposal of waste. But worse things can happen as in >>> > 1996 >>>> >> >>>> >> when unexpected heavy snowfall resulted in death of 243 pilgrims >>> > and >>>> >> >>>> >> injuries to hundred more due to avalanche. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> The State >>> > Pollution Control Board (SPCB), recently in a 37 page >>>> >> >>>> >> report warns that >>> > generation of waste by pilgrims, absence of waste >>>> >> >>>> >> disposal sites, open >>> > dumping of garbage, air pollution, sewage >>>> >> >>>> >> generated by hotels, yatri >>> > camps and local residential areas makes >>>> >> >>>> >> its way into Lidder river. The >>> > SPCB warned that waste generated by >>>> >> >>>> >> pilgrims more than the local average >>> > and primarily contains plastics, >>>> >> >>>> >> polythene and leftover food packets all >>> > along the route. According to >>>> >> >>>> >> their calculation 55,000 kgs of plastic >>> > waste is generated every day >>>> >> >>>> >> during the pilgrimage. Besides, thousands >>> > of open toilets erected >>>> >> >>>> >> along the banks of Lidder river ensures that >>> > effluents enter the >>>> >> >>>> >> river. Thousands of vehicles ply up and down the >>> > mountains around >>>> >> >>>> >> Pahalgam all the way up to Chandanwari spewing carbon >>> > monoxide. The >>>> >> >>>> >> Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB), which came into >>> > existence on >>>> >> >>>> >> February 21, 2001, has been dismissive of such claims. They >>> > assert >>>> >> >>>> >> that 230 pre-fabricated toilets being raised in Nunwan base camp >>> > and >>>> >> >>>> >> human waste disposal off in leach pits with micro-organism >>> > technology >>>> >> >>>> >> using Bokaslin powder and other chemicals would take care of >>> > the >>>> >> >>>> >> problem. However, the issue is more than the supposedly >>> > effective >>>> >> >>>> >> modern methods to manage waste. The sheer presence of large >>> > mass of >>>> >> >>>> >> people is a cause for concern. Department of Science and >>> > technology >>>> >> >>>> >> through its principal investigator on glaciology has argued >>> > that "the >>>> >> >>>> >> ecology, the environment and health of the glacier can be >>> > under >>>> >> >>>> >> severe threat in case the Baltal route to the Holy Cave was >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > frequented by thousands of pilgrims". And pointed out that "depletion >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > and degradation (of glaciers) are the result of human breath, refuse >>>> >> >>>> >> and >>> > land erosion". (The Tribune July 5, 2005). >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> It is disconcerting to >>> > note that opening of Baltal route for pilgrims >>>> >> >>>> >> on foot and those using >>> > helicopters has crossed several thousand >>>> >> >>>> >> every day. Apart from the >>> > Department of Science and Technology of J&K >>>> >> >>>> >> government even the Nitish >>> > Sengupta committee, which was constituted >>>> >> >>>> >> to look into the deaths of 243 >>> > pilgrims in 1996 due to the snowstorm, >>>> >> >>>> >> had recommended that number of >>> > yatris be restricted to 5000 per day >>>> >> >>>> >> for a period of one month and the >>> > total number of pilgrims be capped >>>> >> >>>> >> at1.5 lakhs. According to them Baltal >>> > route should allow 1500 >>>> >> >>>> >> pilgrims and Pahalgam 3500 per day. However, the >>> > General JR Mukherjee >>>> >> >>>> >> committee, which looked into the cause of death of >>> > 35 people, due to >>>> >> >>>> >> cross fire, during the 2000 yatra, focussed on >>> > security arrangement >>>> >> >>>> >> and wanted the duration of the yatra to increase as >>> > security scenario >>>> >> >>>> >> improved. But neither report looked at the >>> > environmental impact of >>>> >> >>>> >> the yatra. Thus when the SASB invokes the >>> > recommendations of the two >>>> >> >>>> >> committees what it does is to use it >>> > selectively and link the number >>>> >> >>>> >> of pilgrims to the issue of managing >>> > security for them. In this sense >>>> >> >>>> >> they underplay the question whether the >>> > eco-system can bear heavy >>>> >> >>>> >> influx of pilgrims. This emphasis on >>> > encouraging larger number of >>>> >> >>>> >> pilgrims shows its impact on the >>> > environment in unexpected ways. Such >>>> >> >>>> >> as the SASB contemplating "air >>> > conditioning" to preserve the shiva >>>> >> >>>> >> lingam from melting. The recent >>> > controversy over the pilgrims >>>> >> >>>> >> alleging that the SASB has been >>> > constructing the "snow lingam" is now >>>> >> >>>> >> being passed off as due to change >>> > in the course of the water channels >>>> >> >>>> >> after last year's earthquake and >>> > global warming. Without ruling this >>>> >> >>>> >> out human contribution to this >>> > phenomenon cannot be ignored when >>>> >> >>>> >> glaciers are rapidly receding. As a >>> > matter of fact yatra was never >>>> >> >>>> >> undertaken in June precisely because >>> > formation of shiva lingam does >>>> >> >>>> >> not always take place then. Incidentally >>> > the local people speak of >>>> >> >>>> >> "human" intervention in restoring what is a >>> > natural phenomenon, as >>>> >> >>>> >> something that has happened in the past too. This >>> > apart large number >>>> >> >>>> >> of pilgrims means that going gets tough as one draws >>> > close to the >>>> >> >>>> >> cave with traffic jam being the order of the day. At times >>> > pilgrims >>>> >> >>>> >> have to wait for hours for their turn. Increase in dust in >>> > atmosphere >>>> >> >>>> >> too is caused by crowds of people as well as helicopter >>> > service. The >>>> >> >>>> >> dust raised is visible from long distance away. All this >>> > also means >>>> >> >>>> >> that individual pilgrims, that is other than VIPs, are >>> > disallowed >>>> >> >>>> >> from spending more than seconds inside the cave. Above all >>> > carbon >>>> >> >>>> >> dioxide levels shoot up warming the area all around. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> It >>> > cannot be that the SASB is unaware of the environmental concerns. >>>> >> >>>> >> If it >>> > receives short shrift it is because the yatra has come to >>>> >> >>>> >> symbolise >>> > Indian government's determination to promote its claim in >>>> >> >>>> >> J&K. That >>> > pilgrimage is being heralded as victory against a movement >>>> >> >>>> >> demanding >>> > azadi from India is available in the news portal of Indian >>>> >> >>>> >> government, >>> > Press Information Bureau. It says that "yearning for >>>> >> >>>> >> moksha (salvation) >>> > can move the devotees to the challenging heights >>>> >> >>>> >> of Kashmir and will be >>> > a fitting gesture of solidarity with our >>>> >> >>>> >> valiant soldiers who have been >>> > fighting the enemy to defend our >>>> >> >>>> >> borders". >>> > (pib.nic.in/feature/feo799/f1507992.html >>> ). Thus what is >>>> >> >>>> >> otherwise merely >>> > a religious pilgrimage of the Hindus has been >>>> >> >>>> >> elevated to represent a >>> > patriotic enterprise. Besides, the SASB is >>>> >> >>>> >> headed by the Governor and >>> > his principal secretary is the CEO of the >>>> >> >>>> >> SASB. Thus the Government of >>> > India is clearly in charge of organising >>>> >> >>>> >> the yatra. And it is the SASB >>> > which has been pushing for larger and >>>> >> >>>> >> larger numbers of pilgrims and >>> > challenging the right of the state >>>> >> >>>> >> government from interfering in anyway >>> > with the schedule announced by >>>> >> >>>> >> the SASB. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> It is true that not >>> > everyone who goes to Amarnath accepts this >>>> >> >>>> >> association of religion with >>> > patriotism. But the fact of the matter >>>> >> >>>> >> is that official perception of >>> > pilgrimage as patriotic duty has >>>> >> >>>> >> allowed the communal fascist elements >>> > to join in organising their >>>> >> >>>> >> supporters. Little wonder that frequency of >>> > conflict between section >>>> >> >>>> >> of such 'pilgrims' and local population due to >>> > their obnoxious >>>> >> >>>> >> behaviour has shown an increase. What is equally >>> > disconcerting is >>>> >> >>>> >> that the SASB presided over by the Governor has also >>> > been engaged in >>>> >> >>>> >> controversial transactions. The CEO of SASB is the >>> > principal >>>> >> >>>> >> secretary to the Governor. Present CEO's wife, in her capacity >>> > of >>>> >> >>>> >> Principal secretary forest department granted permission to SASB >>> > on >>>> >> >>>> >> May 29, 2005 to use forest land. But this provision was not in >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > accordance with the provision of J&K Forest Conservation Act 1997 >>>> >> >>>> >> and, >>> > therefore, the state government withdrew the order. However, >>>> >> >>>> >> thanks to a >>> > stay order by a division bench of the J&K High Court the >>>> >> >>>> >> withdrawal of >>> > permission to occupy forest land, was suspended. Any >>>> >> >>>> >> visitor to Pahalgam >>> > can observe how this forest land is being cleared >>>> >> >>>> >> to setup camps for the >>> > yatris. In fact now the SASB has asked the >>>> >> >>>> >> state government to give them >>> > land in the radius of 5kms of the cave. >>>> >> >>>> >> This arouses local passions >>> > precisely because Indian security forces >>>> >> >>>> >> and other entities have >>> > transferred large tracts of land to house >>>> >> >>>> >> camps for security force >>> > personnel, or for central projects, as well >>>> >> >>>> >> as for schools which are run >>> > by army among others. Even a pro-Indian >>>> >> >>>> >> National Conference party has >>> > protested such transfers of land since >>>> >> >>>> >> 1989. Not very far from the camp >>> > for the pilgrims in Pahalgam, in >>>> >> >>>> >> Lidru (opposite Kulan village) what >>> > locals describe as one of the >>>> >> >>>> >> finest meadows, spread over 550 kanals >>> > (one kanal=one eighth of acre) >>>> >> >>>> >> in area, has been given to the army to >>> > run a school! Local population >>>> >> >>>> >> feels helpless at being unable to stop >>> > this. Therefore, when SASB >>>> >> >>>> >> wants large tract of land transferred to it >>> > under the claim of >>>> >> >>>> >> providing accommodation for lakhs of pilgrims it must >>> > be weighed >>>> >> >>>> >> against this local concern. Were the numbers of pilgrims to >>> > be >>>> >> >>>> >> brought down the pressing need for transferring large areas to >>> > SASB >>>> >> >>>> >> or for providing carpet security and thus deployment of force, can >>> > be >>>> >> >>>> >> brought down. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> This apart the SASB has also been involved in >>> > other controversial >>>> >> >>>> >> acts. One such was the recent attempt by the SASB to >>> > bring down the >>>> >> >>>> >> involvement of local people in the yatra. When on June 5, >>> > 2006 the >>>> >> >>>> >> local pro-India Peoples' Democratic Party (PDP) claimed that >>> > SASB was >>>> >> >>>> >> ignoring livelihood of locals, the SASB countered by claiming >>> > that >>>> >> >>>> >> such criticism would generate controversy and thus >>> > "jeopardise" >>>> >> >>>> >> tourism in Kashmir. Quite apart from the fact that >>> > promotion of >>>> >> >>>> >> pilgrimage for commerce flies in the face of proclaimed >>> > concern for >>>> >> >>>> >> people's faith PDP pointed out that if local porters and >>> > ponywallahs >>>> >> >>>> >> can strike work at Vaishnodevi Shrine against the >>> > (mis)management of >>>> >> >>>> >> the Shri Vaishnodevi Shrine Board (SVDSB) and seek >>> > support from local >>>> >> >>>> >> Congress leaders then what is wrong if local people >>> > from Pahalgam and >>>> >> >>>> >> Kangan areas seek their help to protest against the >>> > practises of SASB >>>> >> >>>> >> which discriminate against them. In fact the Pithoo >>> > Workers Union at >>>> >> >>>> >> Katra have protested the suspension of six of their >>> > leaders, alleged >>>> >> >>>> >> manhandling by SVDSB officials and demanded recall of >>> > its additional >>>> >> >>>> >> CEO. Neither the Governor as head of SVDSB nor the Board >>> > issued any >>>> >> >>>> >> statement chastising the Congress party! >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Arguably, >>> > when yatra was halted between 1991-96 due to threat of >>>> >> >>>> >> section of the >>> > militants it played into the hands of the extreme >>>> >> >>>> >> right wing elements in >>> > Indian society who have since then become an >>>> >> >>>> >> integral part of mobilising >>> > large numbers of pilgrims. Thus a form of >>>> >> >>>> >> competitive communalism came >>> > into play. Thus when section of the >>>> >> >>>> >> militants represented earlier by >>> > Harkatul Ansar and now Lashkar-e- >>>> >> >>>> >> Taiyyaba or Jaish-e-Mohammed threaten >>> > to disrupt the pilgrimage it >>>> >> >>>> >> only gets the backs up of the devout Hindus >>> > opens them to vitriol of >>>> >> >>>> >> the rabidly anti-Muslim Vishwa Hindu Parishad >>> > (VHP), Shiv Sena etc. >>>> >> >>>> >> and accentuates the communal divide. However, it >>> > is equally important >>>> >> >>>> >> to note the actual fact that more people have died >>> > in yatra due to >>>> >> >>>> >> inclement weather and cross fire than at the hands of >>> > the militants. >>>> >> >>>> >> Besides, the main indigenous militant organisation Hizbul >>> > Mujahideen >>>> >> >>>> >> has always supported the yatra and has consistently >>> > demonstrated its >>>> >> >>>> >> opposition towards those who have tried to disrupt the >>> > yatra. >>>> >> >>>> >> Moreover, prior to constituting SASB the state government, >>> > local >>>> >> >>>> >> people and social activists provided aid and assistance to >>> > the >>>> >> >>>> >> pilgrims. However, threat of environmental damage has become a >>> > matter >>>> >> >>>> >> of utmost concern because the central government under the cover >>> > of >>>> >> >>>> >> SASB remains unrelenting in its pursuit of ever larger numbers >>> > to >>>> >> >>>> >> come for pilgrimage. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> In a way the Amarnath yatra illustrates >>> > the way in which the Indian >>>> >> >>>> >> government injects communalism in our body >>> > politic. And also >>>> >> >>>> >> represents how secularism in India has been perverted >>> > to mean state >>>> >> >>>> >> patronage of religion/s. This patronage is not equitably >>> > distributed >>>> >> >>>> >> since Hindus outnumber others by more than eight times. >>> > Which is to >>>> >> >>>> >> say that between un-equals equality ends up promoting Hindu >>> > religious >>>> >> >>>> >> practises. In Amarnath yatra, in fact, the India government >>> > even >>>> >> >>>> >> discarded its pretended neutrality by publicising the yatra as >>> > a >>>> >> >>>> >> patriotic duty! Consequently, the likelihood of Amarnath >>> > pilgrimage >>>> >> >>>> >> getting mired in controversy, over environmental damage >>> > and >>>> >> >>>> >> eventually feeding into further alienation of people because they >>> > can >>>> >> >>>> >> do little to save damage to their lived environment, has >>> > increased. >>>> >> >>>> >> Trouble is the Indian government cares little for people and >>> > prefers >>>> >> >>>> >> to pander to the extreme rightwing by projecting the yatra as >>> > a >>>> >> >>>> >> patriotic enterprise to boost the morale of the Indian >>> > paramilitary >>>> >> >>>> >> forces. The very same force which the local population >>> > regards as >>>> >> >>>> >> symbol of their oppression. Thus a bigger mess is in the >>> > making right >>>> >> >>>> >> before our own eyes. >>>> >> >>>> >> --------------- >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>> >> >>>> >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>> >> >>>> >> Raqs Media >>> > Collective >>>> >> >>>> >> shuddha at sarai.net >>>> >> >>>> >> www.sarai.net >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > _________________________________________ >>>> >> >>>> >> reader-list: an open >>> > discussion list on media and the city. >>>> >> >>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>> >> >>>> >> ... >>>> >> >>>> >> [Message clipped] >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> > >>> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>> > >>> > Raqs Media >>> > Collective >>> > >>> > shuddha at sarai.net >>> > >>> > www.sarai.net >>> > >>> > >>> > www.raqsmediacollective.net >>> > >>> > >>> > >> _________________________________________ >> re >>> > ader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & >>> > Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>> > with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: >>> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >>> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > > From aman.am at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 12:11:07 2008 From: aman.am at gmail.com (Aman Sethi) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 12:11:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70807010154y3f9631ebn88b5cb7fe9fd530a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <995a19920807012341l4bdcf2hc9cb29d7c84ab47a@mail.gmail.com> FYI: >From today's Hindu - http://www.thehindu.com/2008/07/02/stories/2008070261380100.htm Land Allotment to Shrine Board Cancelled. SRINAGAR: In a bid to end the 10-day-long crisis, the Jammu and Kashmir government on Tuesday cancelled the order of transfer of 39.88 hectares of forest land to the Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board. Mainstream parties welcomed the decision and the Action Committee Against Land Transfer called off the strike, planned for Wednesday, and asked people to resume normal life. Its chairman Mian Abdul Qayoom said it was a victory for the people of KashmirThe Cabinet, which met with Chief Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad in the chair, decided to cancel the allotment of 39.88 hectares of forest land "diverted to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board at Baltal and Domail." The Cabinet decided that land for Amarnath pilgrims will be made available to the Tourism Department "at various locations from Jammu onwards to the Holy Cave via Baltal-Domail as well as Pahalgam yatra routes," according to Chief Secretary S.S. Kapur. It reiterated the commitment to provide infrastructure and logistical support for the yatra. The Opposition National Conference president Omar Abdullah welcomed the decision saying that "no party should have any objection as the arrangements of yatra will be the State's responsibility now." People's Democratic Party president Mehbooba Mufti, while welcoming the decision, could not understand land transfer to the Tourism Department. CPI(M) State secretary M.Y. Tarigami and People's Democratic Front president Hakeem Yaseen, while hailing the decision, hoped that it would end the political stalemate and the strike. In Jammu, 75 people, including an MP, were injured in violence during protests against the cancellation of land allotment. The protests were called by the Bharatiya Janata Party, Shiv Sena and Bajrang Dal. Curfew was clamped in parts of Jammu. (c) Copyright 2000 - 2008 The Hindu On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 2:38 PM, S. Jabbar wrote: > Sorry, you need to add the source after the quote. Who are you quoting? > Anyway I don¹t understand the point of this. Are you saying that only Hindu > lands were confiscated in the execution of the Naya Kashmir manifesto? That > is simply not true. > > > On 7/1/08 2:24 PM, "Pawan Durani" wrote: > >> ".........................In the blue-print of 'New Kashmir', the land reforms >> were envisaged as a key to freeing the peasantry from the thraldom of >> feudalism acting as an obstacle in their onward march to freedom from >> exploitation and abject poverty. Designed to create a support-base in the >> Muslim peasantry of Kashmir, the National Conference leadership slyly >> presented the Hindus as the only section possessing enormous landed property, >> which was many leagues away from truth. In the province of Kashmir, if there >> were some Hindu landlords, there were equally Muslim landlords who were more >> ruthless in their treatment of the Muslim tenants, ever tightening their noose >> on them only to reduce them to abysmal depths of want and deprivation. The >> Muslim cruelty heaped on the Muslim tenants was never highlighted by the >> National Conference leaders, who stoutly opposed the Kisan Sabha organised by >> Late Pandit Prem Nath Bazaz under the leadership of Abdul Salam Yatu.3 Reasons >> for this might have been political, but the fact remains that the Radical >> Humanists working under the overall guidance and leadership of Shree Bazaz >> were the first to focus on the problems confronting the Muslim peasantry of >> Kashmir. The Muslim leadership of the National Conference aroused hatred >> against the Kashmirian Hindus, who, as per them, were the oppressors of the >> Muslims. It never focussed on the extraordinary precedent set by Pandit Jia >> Lal Tamiri,4 a top freedom fighter known for his proverbial honesty and Pandit >> Durga Prashad Dhar,5 a central minister, who had given their ancestral lands >> to their tenants much before land reforms were enacted and implemented in the >> State. Have the Muslims of Kashmir to offer such a unique example standing >> comparison to the one set by two bright sons of the Kashmirian Hindu >> community......................." >> >> >> >> >> On 7/1/08, S. Jabbar wrote: >>> Come on, Pawan, the Land to the Tiller movement was not directed against the >>> Pandits only. It affected, equally, rich Muslim landlords, many of whom >>> were so-called Pirs. This gave fillip to the bakras who were then strongly >>> supported by wealthy Muslims. Thus the class divide between the shers & the >>> bakras. >>> >>> >>> On 7/1/08 10:17 AM, "Pawan Durani" wrote: >>> >>>> > Shuddha , >>> >>> I hope you have an idea of how land belonging to Kashmiri Hindus >>>> > were handed >>> over to muslims in Kashmir under the garb of land reforms . >>> >>> I >>>> > know that is very convenient for you to ignore ... >>> >>> Pawan >>> >>> >>> On 6/30/08, >>>> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Dear Pawan, >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > That >>>> > is your opinion, not a substantiated fact. As far as I have seen, >>>> > there has >>>> > not been a single statement made against Hindu pligrims by anyone >>>> > in the >>>> > leadership or the constituency of the movement against land transfer >>>> > in >>>> > Kashmir. And until such a statement is made, we cannot say that it arises> >>>> > out of a 'resentment towards hindu pligrims'. People across the spectrum >>>> of >>>> > >>>> > political opinion in Kashmir have taken pains to point out that they >>>> welcome >>>> > >>>> > pilgrims. And the question of the acquisition of land has nothing to do >>>> with >>>> > >>>> > pilgrims. There is a long history of arbitrary acquisition and occupation >>>> of >>>> > >>>> > land, including orchards, schools, meadows, pastures, grazing comons and >>>> > >>>> > private homes in Kashmir, especially by the Armed Forces and >>>> paramilitaries, >>>> > >>>> > it is possible that the movement we see crystallizes the pent up feeling >>>> of >>>> > >>>> > anger against this long history of land acquisition. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > An audit of the >>>> > impact of land acquisition on the ecology and social fabric >>>> > of Kashmir (on >>>> > both sides of the line of control) is still pending. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > best >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Shuddha >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On 30-Jun-08, at 9:24 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Dear >>>> > Shuddha , >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > While I may trust your belief in ecological fallout , i >>>> > completely disagree >>>> > with your understanding that the issue is not about the >>>> > resentment towards >>>> > hindu pligrims. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > It is all about that , non >>>> > tolerance towards so called hindus or what they >>>> > love to >>>> > call...."Kufr". >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Pawan >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On 6/30/08, Shuddhabrata >>>> > Sengupta wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Dear Pawan, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Just because a >>>> > terrain does not have trees, or that the altitude it is >>>>> >> located in happens >>>> > to be above the treeline, does not mean that it is not >>>>> >> ecologically >>>> > sensitive. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Often, it is precisely terrain of this nature, such as for >>>> > instance is at >>>>> >> the vicinity of the mouth of the Gomukh glacier above >>>> > Gangotri,(again above >>>>> >> the treeline) that is extremely fragile and needs >>>> > very careful nurturing. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I know for a fact that the ecosystem of the >>>> > Gomukh glacial region is very >>>>> >> badly threatened because of the completely >>>> > haphazard way in which access to >>>>> >> this region (and the logistics of >>>> > pilgrimage and tourism) has been managed. >>>>> >> I can very easily see that >>>> > something similar can happen in the case of >>>>> >> Amarnath. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I would urge >>>> > you not to make the discussion of this question into a >>>>> >> 'Hindu' question. It >>>> > is not one, it is about the way in which State managed, >>>>> >> so called, 'Temple >>>> > Development Boards', enter into schemes to grab land, and >>>>> >> about the >>>> > ecological consequences of their land-grabbing propensities. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> You >>>> > might recall that some months back you tried to pose the question of >>>>> >> the >>>> > building of a shipping canal between India and Sri Lanka as a matter of >>>>> >> >>>> > hurting Hindu sentiments. I endorsed your opposition to the so called >>>>> >> >>>> > 'Sethu-Samudram Shipping Channel' scheme, because to me it represented a >>>>> >> >>>> > threat to a fragile marine ecosystem, not on the basis of its alleged >>>> > injury >>>>> >> to Hindu sentiments. I also pointed out to you and to others on the >>>> > list >>>>> >> that the protectors of Hindutva, while proposing a Panama Canal >>>> > style >>>>> >> waterway cutting through the apex of the Deccan peninsula as an >>>> > alternative >>>>> >> to the 'Sethu-Samudram' plan were also proposing what was >>>> > certainly a >>>>> >> blueprint for an ecological disaster. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Opposition to >>>> > the proposed (and now rescinded) land grab proposal by the >>>>> >> SASB in the >>>> > Amarnath case does not automatically translate into partisanship >>>>> >> across the >>>> > Hindu-Muslim question in Kashmir. Those who translate it as such, >>>>> >> whether >>>> > they are Hindu, or Muslim, are needlessly confusing a >>>>> >> straightforward >>>> > matter by bringing their own secterian biases to bear on the >>>>> >> issue. No one >>>> > should be misled by such attempts at confusion. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> best >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > Shuddha >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On 30-Jun-08, at 4:44 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > Hello Shuddha , >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Lemme just inform everyone that , the land may have >>>> > belonged to Forest >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Department , but there is no single tree over >>>> > there. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Even when you reach Amarntah , there are no trees over there , >>>> > becuase of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> high altitude. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I visited the site, Baltal , two >>>> > years back. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Unfortunately the issue is not about ecology ..... the >>>> > way it has been >>>>> >> >>>>> >> treated is a pure indicator that anything related to >>>> > Hindus is not >>>>> >> tolerable >>>>> >> >>>>> >> in Kashmir, and proves once again that it is >>>> > not "freedom" but Islamic >>>>> >> >>>>> >> fanaticism which rules the shot in >>>> > Kashmir. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Pawan >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On 6/30/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Dear Sonia, Dear Rashneek, dear >>>> > all, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Thank you, Sonia and Rashneek for the debate on the Amarnath >>>> > Yatra >>>>> >> >>>>> >> issue. The question of temple boards and their closeness to >>>> > power, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> and their lust for acquiring forest lands is not unique to >>>> > Kashmir. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> It also happens, as you will see below, (see the report - >>>> > Sabarimala: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> The Faith in Spate, by K.A. Shaji) in distant Kerala. The >>>> > ruling left >>>>> >> >>>>> >> front government in Kerala is as involved in this game as >>>> > anyone >>>>> >> >>>>> >> else, because 'Temple Boards' are gold-mines and no state >>>> > government >>>>> >> >>>>> >> wants to close an operation that earns them the gold that can >>>> > be >>>>> >> >>>>> >> mined in these gold mines. I am appending below a report on the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > question of the Sabarimala Temple boards desire for even more >>>>> >> >>>>> >> reserved >>>> > forest land. The story is remarkably resonant of the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Amarnath issue. A >>>> > local, highly culturally specific, syncretic >>>>> >> >>>>> >> pilgrimage turning into the >>>> > road-show of a revivalist 'Hinduism', >>>>> >> >>>>> >> with lucrative revenue >>>> > spin-offs. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I live in an area in Delhi where I have witnessed every >>>> > year, for the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> past few years - 'Chalo Amarnath Chalo' (Let's go to >>>> > Amarnath) >>>>> >> >>>>> >> posters and banners being put up by local RSS functionaries. >>>> > And >>>>> >> >>>>> >> there are active fundraising drives which culminate in a cavalcade >>>> > of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Tata Sumos with the local 'Youth' blaring 'bhajans' from their >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > booming auto-sound systems taking off to go do 'darshan' of the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> melting >>>> > lingam. I don't think they (the Sumo Pilgrims of my >>>>> >> >>>>> >> neighbourhood) >>>> > really care whether or not the forests of Kashmir go >>>>> >> >>>>> >> up in >>>> > smoke. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I also know that the Sabarimala pilgrimage has been twisted >>>> > out of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> shape in a similar way, both by Hindutva enthusiasts, and >>>> > by >>>>> >> >>>>> >> construction contractors close to the ruling Left Front. >>>> > Fragile >>>>> >> >>>>> >> forests can barely sustain the burden of so much sudden >>>> > faith. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Incidentally, revivalist Hindus are by no means alone in >>>> > their >>>>> >> >>>>> >> disregard for the local heritage and environment. The ruling >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > dispensation in Saudi Arabia has effectively turned the pilgrimage >>>>> >> >>>>> >> sites >>>> > of Mecca and Medina into an air-conditioned cultural wasteland. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> it has >>>> > systematically destroyed shrines that were considered holy by >>>>> >> >>>>> >> millions >>>> > of Muslim pilgrims, especially from South Asia, and >>>>> >> >>>>> >> completely >>>> > transformed the intricate urban fabric of Mecca and >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Medina. There is a >>>> > long history of protest, including in India, by >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Muslims against the way >>>> > in which the Saudi Government, in cohorts >>>>> >> >>>>> >> with the Wahabi establishment >>>> > has wrecked the topography of Mecca and >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Medina. Similarly, the Israeli >>>> > state's policy of expansion, through >>>>> >> >>>>> >> settlements, and building high >>>> > security segregated roads that cut >>>>> >> >>>>> >> through the west bank of the Jordan >>>> > river are often camouflaged under >>>>> >> >>>>> >> an appeal to scriptural sanction for >>>> > 'Greater' or 'Eretz' Israel. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> There is a great deal of money to be made >>>> > in pilgrimage, and it >>>>> >> >>>>> >> affords everybody an opportunity to make some >>>> > quick transformations >>>>> >> >>>>> >> of the landscape in the name of 'infrastructure >>>> > development' and >>>>> >> >>>>> >> 'settlement' , both of which are euphemisms for >>>> > speculation in real >>>>> >> >>>>> >> estate. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I am also appending a detailed >>>> > report on the environmental impact of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> what was proposed by the erstwhile >>>> > governor Gen (Retd) Sinha of Jammu >>>>> >> >>>>> >> and Kashmir for the Amarnath Yatra by >>>> > Gautam Navlakha that appeared >>>>> >> >>>>> >> recently in the website of a journal >>>> > called Kashmir Affairs. Finally, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> it is not my case that the acquisition >>>> > of land for the Amarnath Board >>>>> >> >>>>> >> (SASB) is wrong, and the acquisition of >>>> > land for the so-called >>>>> >> >>>>> >> 'Mughal Road', which has been pointed out by >>>> > Aditya Raj Kaul, in a >>>>> >> >>>>> >> recent post is wrong. Both are equally disastrous >>>> > from the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> environmental point of view. And the silence of political >>>> > formations >>>>> >> >>>>> >> (of all persuasions) on the environmental impact of the >>>> > revived >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Mughal Road and their recent discovery of environmentalism (in >>>> > the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> case of the Amarnath land transfer issue) does make their >>>> > commitment >>>>> >> >>>>> >> to environmentalism somewhat suspect. The PDP's stance >>>> > is >>>>> >> >>>>> >> particularly hypocritical, as the original decision has been >>>> > ratified >>>>> >> >>>>> >> by its own minister, (for Forest) in the (Indian Held) J&K >>>> > state >>>>> >> >>>>> >> government. Still, even if the commitment of all the protagonists >>>> > is >>>>> >> >>>>> >> suspect, I must say that I have rarely seen a popular movement >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > reverse a state-driven decision on an 'environmental' issue, and the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > recent success of the agitation in Kashmir (whatever be the motives >>>>> >> >>>>> >> that >>>> > impelled it) which has resulted in a reversal of the Land >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Transfer issue >>>> > is something to be grateful for. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> These are issues that need to be >>>> > seen quite separately from secterian >>>>> >> >>>>> >> concerns. I hope this debate can >>>> > help us see them in that way. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> best >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Shuddha >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > ------------------- >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> 1. Sabarimala: The Faith in Spate >>>>> >> >>>>> >> by K A >>>> > Shaji >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> http://www.boloji.com/society/115.htm >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Legend has it >>>> > that when Lord Ayyappa set out to seek solitude, he >>>>> >> >>>>> >> settled upon >>>> > Sabarimala. Its sylvan surroundings and undulating >>>>> >> >>>>> >> terrain had made it >>>> > an ideal retreat for the bachelor god. The >>>>> >> >>>>> >> pristine monsoon forests had >>>> > wrapped like an ornament around his >>>>> >> >>>>> >> hermitage at the top of the hill. >>>> > The Lord believed to have called >>>>> >> >>>>> >> the area with tranquil atmosphere as >>>> > his poonkavanam (sacred forest). >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> A shrine inside the forest and a >>>> > deity who chose the calm ambience of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> hills and valleys has few parallels >>>> > in the country and outside. But >>>>> >> >>>>> >> now, it seems, all of the glories of >>>> > Sabarimala were a thing of the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> past. When mythology meets present-day >>>> > reality, Sabarimala is no more >>>>> >> >>>>> >> a chosen abode of the hermit God. During >>>> > January-February each year, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> more than 50 million devotees, as claimed by >>>> > the temple authorities, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> are thronging this forest temple for annual >>>> > pilgrimage, putting the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> fragile ecology of the region under severe >>>> > stress. Now, the holy hill >>>>> >> >>>>> >> is a synonym of increasing inflow of >>>> > pilgrims, inadequate >>>>> >> >>>>> >> infrastructure, a devastated environment and a >>>> > hapless wildlife. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> While the entire hill and the adjacent river Pampa, >>>> > the third largest >>>>> >> >>>>> >> river in Kerala, are stinking due to sewage pollution >>>> > and >>>>> >> >>>>> >> accumulation of garbage, the situation is not much different in >>>> > the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> administrative and spiritual circles of the hill shrine. First, >>>> > it >>>>> >> >>>>> >> was a controversy involving Kannada film actress Jayamala and a >>>> > group >>>>> >> >>>>> >> of orthodox Hindus, who questioned her claim of touching the idol >>>> > of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> the bachelor god defying the barricades meant for preventing >>>> > sexually >>>>> >> >>>>> >> active women from entering the hill shrine. Then one of the >>>> > highly >>>>> >> >>>>> >> revered traditional priests of the temple was robbed of a >>>> > large >>>>> >> >>>>> >> amount of money and gold ornaments during his visit to the house >>>> > of a >>>>> >> >>>>> >> woman engaged in flesh trade by a mafia gang. And now, it is the >>>> > turn >>>>> >> >>>>> >> of aged father of a senior priest to allege that his son is >>>> > under >>>>> >> >>>>> >> influence of a powerful Ezhava community leader with shadowy >>>> > nature >>>>> >> >>>>> >> and the leader's followers are using his son to pocket the >>>> > temple >>>>> >> >>>>> >> money. In the meantime, the Left Front Government has disbanded >>>> > the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> existing administrative body of the temple citing corruption at >>>> > high >>>>> >> >>>>> >> level and is preparing to enact a legislation to keep the >>>> > corrupt >>>>> >> >>>>> >> community leaders out of the administrative body >>>> > forever. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On monetary grounds, the temple is the third largest in the >>>> > country, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> standing very close to Tirupathi and Guruvayur. The >>>> > cash-strapped >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Kerala Government, despite its leftist moorings, is >>>> > depending very >>>>> >> >>>>> >> much on the income from the temple to meet salary needs >>>> > of its >>>>> >> >>>>> >> employees. In order to increase the revenue, the successive >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > governments and the so-called proponents of development are >>>>> >> >>>>> >> vociferous >>>> > of implementing multi-crore construction plans in >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Sabarimala clearing >>>> > forests and building a concrete jungle in its >>>>> >> >>>>> >> place. But nobody in the >>>> > spiritual and administrative levels of the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> temple as well as the >>>> > government establishment are apprehensive of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> the increasing level of >>>> > pollution and the extreme level of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> deforestation. Their focus is >>>> > entangled only in the growing number of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> controversies and the >>>> > commissions to be available after the beginning >>>>> >> >>>>> >> of the construction >>>> > work. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Located about 467 metres above sea level, the Sabarimala temple >>>> > is >>>>> >> >>>>> >> surrounded by 18 hills and situated inside Periyar Tiger Reserve, >>>> > one >>>>> >> >>>>> >> of the few safe havens for tigers in the country. According to >>>> > bird >>>>> >> >>>>> >> watcher B.Sethumadhavan, as many as 2000 species of flowering >>>> > plants, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> endemic and medicinal, have been identified among the region's >>>> > flora. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> `` About 63 species of mammals, some of them endangered like >>>> > tigers, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> elephants and lion tailed macaque live here. So far, 223 species >>>> > of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> birds and 45 species of reptiles including King Cobra have been >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > identified in this area,'' he said. The ever- expanding number of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > pilgrims and mindless construction works are posing severe threat to >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > their very survival. Devotees of a Lord, who believed to have loved >>>>> >> >>>>> >> the >>>> > flora and fauna and their safekeeping, are now on a rampage in >>>>> >> >>>>> >> the name >>>> > of development forcing the wildlife to move out of their >>>>> >> >>>>> >> traditional >>>> > habitat. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> As per legends, the vehicle of Lord Ayyappa is tiger. >>>> > But, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> astonishingly, neither the tiger nor the surrounding >>>> > evergreen >>>>> >> >>>>> >> forests do not come in the list of priorities before the >>>> > |Travancore >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Devaswam Board, which administers the shrine. ``There was an >>>> > increase >>>>> >> >>>>> >> of 35 per cent in revenue while comparing with last year during >>>> > the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> November-December period. In the number of visitors, the increase >>>> > is >>>>> >> >>>>> >> of 19 per cent. These figures show the need for immediate >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > developmental works in Sabarimala. But there are agencies like Forest >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > Department which cry for tigers and forests,'' alleges G.Raman Nair, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > outgoing president of the board. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> However, environmentalists and >>>> > forest officials are countering the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> allegation. ``The development works >>>> > so far at Pampa have made it >>>>> >> >>>>> >> impossible a soul-filling holy dip in river >>>> > Pampa. At least, two >>>>> >> >>>>> >> scientific studies conducted by Government's own >>>> > agencies had found >>>>> >> >>>>> >> that landslips and tremors would take place at the >>>> > holy hillock any >>>>> >> >>>>> >> time largely because of the extensive concrete flooring >>>> > at the temple >>>>> >> >>>>> >> premises. The devaswam is only interested in money making. >>>> > It has no >>>>> >> >>>>> >> concern for the impending dangers for both nature and >>>> > devotees,'' >>>>> >> >>>>> >> pointed out Sumesh Mangalassery, a member of the >>>> > environmental group >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Kabani. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> According to Sumesh, a panel of >>>> > Kerala Legislature on environment led >>>>> >> >>>>> >> by RSP leader A V Thamarakshan had >>>> > submitted 32 proposals to the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Devaswam Board to protect Sabarimala >>>> > around five years back. But none >>>>> >> >>>>> >> of them were acceptable to the board. >>>> > Even the suggestions of Kerala >>>>> >> >>>>> >> State Pollution Control Board to minimise >>>> > the pollution of river >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Pampa were paid scant regard by the board. A >>>> > visit by Tehelka to >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Sabarimala found that river Pampa continues to >>>> > remain the main victim >>>>> >> >>>>> >> of the callous attitude of the authorities. It >>>> > gets choked in the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> temple area as solid waste including human excreta; >>>> > plastic bags, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> empty water bottles and coconut husks block the free flow >>>> > of water. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> About 35 million people took a holy dip in the river between >>>> > November >>>>> >> >>>>> >> and January, which is the major source of drinking water for >>>> > three >>>>> >> >>>>> >> districts. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> According to a study by the pollution control >>>> > board, the total >>>>> >> >>>>> >> coliform count recorded at the river portion close to >>>> > Sabarimala is >>>>> >> >>>>> >> about 1,14,000 per 100 millilitres (ML) during the peak >>>> > of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> pilgrimage. Just before the pilgrimage season, it is merely 380 >>>> > per >>>>> >> >>>>> >> 100 ml- well below the permissible limits of 500 per 100 ml. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > According to local people, the overflow of human faeces from sceptic >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > tanks around the temple stands the major reason of the pollution of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> the >>>> > river. ``More than 3,000 temporary toilets are functioning close >>>>> >> >>>>> >> to the >>>> > temple in addition to about 600 permanent toilets. The >>>>> >> >>>>> >> capacity of the >>>> > sewerage treatment plant is very limited,'' pointed >>>>> >> >>>>> >> out K.Anirudhan of >>>> > Sabarimala Samrakshana Samithy. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Most of the experts, who had >>>> > conducted studies on the pollution and >>>>> >> >>>>> >> environmental problems prevailing >>>> > in Sabarimala, point to the need of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> regulating the ever- increasing >>>> > number of pilgrims. ``Sabarimala is >>>>> >> >>>>> >> bursting at the seams with millions >>>> > of devotees now. Thirty or forty >>>>> >> >>>>> >> years ago, only around 50,000 pilgrims >>>> > visited the temple. Today, the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> number is fifty million and is rising at >>>> > the rate of 20 per cent >>>>> >> >>>>> >> every year. The ever-swelling flow resulted in a >>>> > major mishap on >>>>> >> >>>>> >> January 14, 1999, when 100 pilgrims died in a stampede >>>> > at the site. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Indications are that Sabarimala is a disaster waiting to be >>>> > happen,'' >>>>> >> >>>>> >> warns noted Kerala based environmentalist P K Uthaman. >>>> > According to >>>>> >> >>>>> >> him, almost two thousand tonnes of human waste are >>>> > deposited in crude >>>>> >> >>>>> >> earth pits and outside in Sabarimala every year. >>>> > These wastes are >>>>> >> >>>>> >> finding their way into not only the river Pampa but >>>> > also to river >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Periyar by underground as well as over ground rivulets, >>>> > posing a >>>>> >> >>>>> >> threat great health hazard for the pilgrims as well as those >>>> > living >>>>> >> >>>>> >> downstream. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> In addition, the lack of post pilgrimage >>>> > cleaning drives often result >>>>> >> >>>>> >> in unabated flow of hazardous waste into >>>> > the rivers. The temple area >>>>> >> >>>>> >> has already been converted into a concrete >>>> > jungle where guesthouses >>>>> >> >>>>> >> and other structures are constructed >>>> > haphazardly all around. They are >>>>> >> >>>>> >> meant for temple officials, priests, >>>> > VVIPs and police personnel. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> According to M.Gopal, a pilgrim from >>>> > Bangalore who visited Sabarimala >>>>> >> >>>>> >> this year, human excreta and plastic >>>> > waste were found strewn just >>>>> >> >>>>> >> outside the Sannidhanam (the main building >>>> > of the temple). As per >>>>> >> >>>>> >> data available from forest department, over 2.5 >>>> > lakh empty plastic >>>>> >> >>>>> >> bottles of packaged water were collected from inside >>>> > the tiger >>>>> >> >>>>> >> reserve. The number of tetra packs collected would come around >>>> > 4.5 >>>>> >> >>>>> >> lakh. The temple complex of the hermit, who believed in >>>> > renunciation >>>>> >> >>>>> >> of earthly attractions, is now filled with commercial shops >>>> > selling >>>>> >> >>>>> >> products ranging from gold ornaments to dress materials. All >>>> > these >>>>> >> >>>>> >> shops were constructed by clearing forests. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> ``The total >>>> > time available for darsan as of now is a total of 1431 >>>>> >> >>>>> >> hours, i.e. >>>> > 515160 seconds. If a darsan goes on one at a time basis >>>>> >> >>>>> >> and a devotee >>>> > gets a second, the total strength of the pilgrims can >>>>> >> >>>>> >> only be 5,15, 160 >>>> > per year. If ten people could somehow cluster >>>>> >> >>>>> >> together per second for >>>> > darsan, the maximum number would be >>>>> >> >>>>> >> 51,51,600,'' points out a document >>>> > prepared by |School of Social >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Sciences at Mahatma Gandhi University on >>>> > behalf of Kerla Forest >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Department. The document also questions the >>>> > claims of the board that >>>>> >> >>>>> >> over 50 million people visit the temple >>>> > annually. But anyway, the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> number of pilgrims' visting Sabarimala is many >>>> > times more than its >>>>> >> >>>>> >> capacity. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> ``The authorities must find out >>>> > some mechanism to regulate the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> alarming increase in the number of >>>> > pilgrims. Sabarimala is not only >>>>> >> >>>>> >> an environmental but also a social >>>> > disaster,'' opined Dr.Rajan >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Gurukkal of School of Social Sciences. Now a >>>> > day, the uncontrolled >>>>> >> >>>>> >> flow of pilgrims from various entry points is >>>> > resulting in people >>>>> >> >>>>> >> swarming all around the protected sanctuary leading >>>> > to man ­animal >>>>> >> >>>>> >> conflicts. Recently, an elephant trampled upon one >>>> > pilgrim. Then it >>>>> >> >>>>> >> was found that the pilgrims were sleeping in the >>>> > corridor used by the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> elephants for going to the river to drink water at >>>> > the night. A large >>>>> >> >>>>> >> number of such corridors were already disrupted due >>>> > to the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> construction works undertaken in the recent past. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > According to Sedumadhavan, the authorities are even paying scant >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > attention on the safety of pilgrims. As many as 12,000 litres of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> diesel >>>> > are being stored just above the sannidhanam without any >>>>> >> >>>>> >> storage licence >>>> > or safety parameters. They are also keeping a large >>>>> >> >>>>> >> number of crackers >>>> > near the sanctum sanctoram without any safety >>>>> >> >>>>> >> concern. The only solution >>>> > on the part of Trvancore Devaswom Board >>>>> >> >>>>> >> for all problems plaguing >>>> > Sabarimala is denudation of nearby forests >>>>> >> >>>>> >> and setting up new amenities. >>>> > According to Rajan Gurukkal, such an >>>>> >> >>>>> >> attempt would be disastrous as all >>>> > the existing problems of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Sabarimala can be viwed as the after effect of >>>> > deforestation. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> The devaswam board has already ruined about 55.09 ha >>>> > of forestland in >>>>> >> >>>>> >> the name of sabarimala development. In the opinion >>>> > of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> environmentalists, they demand more forests to cut and smuggle >>>> > out >>>>> >> >>>>> >> precious trees and construction of further concrete strctures >>>> > with >>>>> >> >>>>> >> ulterior motives. Maintaining the sanctity of the shrine and >>>> > the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> precious eco-system never appeared a priority before them. So >>>> > far, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> the devaswam board was constituted once in five years by >>>> > nomination >>>>> >> >>>>> >> of people with no administrative acumen at the behest of >>>> > successive >>>>> >> >>>>> >> governments. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Rajan Gurukkal and his team at School >>>> > of Social Sciences have >>>>> >> >>>>> >> prepared a long-term action plan for saving >>>> > Sabarimala from the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> sequence of disasters in the offing. But the lobbies >>>> > of corrupt and >>>>> >> >>>>> >> communal elements are not allowing the devaswam to look >>>> > into them. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Even the small step of Left Government in disbanding the >>>> > existing >>>>> >> >>>>> >> devaswam committee is being interpreted as an attempt by >>>> > atheists to >>>>> >> >>>>> >> interfere in Hindu religious matters. The move by left >>>> > government to >>>>> >> >>>>> >> appoint experts in place of politicians at the board also >>>> > facing >>>>> >> >>>>> >> opposition from Sangh Parivar organisations, who claim as >>>> > custodians >>>>> >> >>>>> >> of Hindu places of worship. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> The board and its >>>> > corrupt administrators were not able to get their >>>>> >> >>>>> >> hand on the forest so >>>> > far due to stringent central acts and Supreme >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Court rulings. But even >>>> > the outgoing members are repeating their old >>>>> >> >>>>> >> slogan of `no development >>>> > in Sabarimala would be possible without >>>>> >> >>>>> >> deforestation.' Unless the >>>> > authorities change their attitude from a >>>>> >> >>>>> >> revenue-centred approach to a >>>> > pilgrim centred aprach, there is not >>>>> >> >>>>> >> much hope. But they still repeat >>>> > that development (read >>>>> >> >>>>> >> deforestation) could not be stopped for the sake >>>> > of a few birds and >>>>> >> >>>>> >> animals. ``The board had neither faith in >>>> > environmental protection >>>>> >> >>>>> >> nor in religious sanctity,'' opines Rajan >>>> > Gurukkal. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Decongestion of base town Pampa by increasing facilities at >>>> > a >>>>> >> >>>>> >> relatively distant town of Nilakkal, demolition of unauthorised >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > concrete structures at Sannidhanam and Pampa, cleaning of the river, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > better waste disposal facilities and provisions of basic facilities >>>>> >> >>>>> >> for >>>> > pilgrims without affecting ecology are the urgent needs of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Sabarimala. >>>> > The tigers and elephants must be protected. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> If there is no mechanism >>>> > to check the number of pilgrims, that would >>>>> >> >>>>> >> increase to two to three >>>> > crores within years. Moderate elements among >>>>> >> >>>>> >> the Hindu community are >>>> > favouring a statutory body for Sabarimala in >>>>> >> >>>>> >> line with >>>> > Tirumala-Thirupathy Devasthanam and Amarnath temple. Such a >>>>> >> >>>>> >> body >>>> > consisting of experts from different fields can change the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> course of >>>> > priorities of the forest temple. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> ----------- >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> 2. Amarnath >>>> > Yatra: The Pilgrimage to Eco Disaster >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Gautam Navlakha >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > http://www.kashmiraffairs.org/gautam_amarnath%20yatra.html >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Should one >>>> > question the propriety of promoting pilgrimage in a >>>>> >> >>>>> >> ecologically fragile >>>> > area or wink at it in the name of devotees right >>>>> >> >>>>> >> to free movement and >>>> > worship? This question comes to mind when >>>>> >> >>>>> >> looking at Amarnath Yatra >>>> > especially the phenomenal increase in the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> number of pilgrims. This >>>> > increase is not of few hundred or few >>>>> >> >>>>> >> thousand but runs into hundreds of >>>> > thousands. There has been a >>>>> >> >>>>> >> doubling of the period for pilgrimage from >>>> > one month to two this year >>>>> >> >>>>> >> as well as forty times increase in number of >>>> > pilgrims, from 12,000 in >>>>> >> >>>>> >> 1989 to 450,000 in 2005 (this year it is set to >>>> > cross 500,000) are >>>>> >> >>>>> >> cause for concern. In fact the actual period is >>>> > longer because a >>>>> >> >>>>> >> fortnight before the official yatra is reserved for >>>> > army men and >>>>> >> >>>>> >> their families to visit the Amarnath cave through >>>> > ecologically more >>>>> >> >>>>> >> vulnerable Baltal route. Moreover, in order to provide >>>> > security for >>>>> >> >>>>> >> pilgrims who come out in large number, the paramilitary >>>> > forces have >>>>> >> >>>>> >> to be deployed in large number. The current deployment will >>>> > be in >>>>> >> >>>>> >> excess of 20,000 for the entire period. Their presence and >>>> > stay >>>>> >> >>>>> >> cannot but affect the rise in pollution levels. Inclement weather >>>> > too >>>>> >> >>>>> >> is an issue because rains in the plain means snow in the >>>> > higher >>>>> >> >>>>> >> reaches. This results in crowding at the camps, straining >>>> > services >>>>> >> >>>>> >> including disposal of waste. But worse things can happen as in >>>> > 1996 >>>>> >> >>>>> >> when unexpected heavy snowfall resulted in death of 243 pilgrims >>>> > and >>>>> >> >>>>> >> injuries to hundred more due to avalanche. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> The State >>>> > Pollution Control Board (SPCB), recently in a 37 page >>>>> >> >>>>> >> report warns that >>>> > generation of waste by pilgrims, absence of waste >>>>> >> >>>>> >> disposal sites, open >>>> > dumping of garbage, air pollution, sewage >>>>> >> >>>>> >> generated by hotels, yatri >>>> > camps and local residential areas makes >>>>> >> >>>>> >> its way into Lidder river. The >>>> > SPCB warned that waste generated by >>>>> >> >>>>> >> pilgrims more than the local average >>>> > and primarily contains plastics, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> polythene and leftover food packets all >>>> > along the route. According to >>>>> >> >>>>> >> their calculation 55,000 kgs of plastic >>>> > waste is generated every day >>>>> >> >>>>> >> during the pilgrimage. Besides, thousands >>>> > of open toilets erected >>>>> >> >>>>> >> along the banks of Lidder river ensures that >>>> > effluents enter the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> river. Thousands of vehicles ply up and down the >>>> > mountains around >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Pahalgam all the way up to Chandanwari spewing carbon >>>> > monoxide. The >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB), which came into >>>> > existence on >>>>> >> >>>>> >> February 21, 2001, has been dismissive of such claims. They >>>> > assert >>>>> >> >>>>> >> that 230 pre-fabricated toilets being raised in Nunwan base camp >>>> > and >>>>> >> >>>>> >> human waste disposal off in leach pits with micro-organism >>>> > technology >>>>> >> >>>>> >> using Bokaslin powder and other chemicals would take care of >>>> > the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> problem. However, the issue is more than the supposedly >>>> > effective >>>>> >> >>>>> >> modern methods to manage waste. The sheer presence of large >>>> > mass of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> people is a cause for concern. Department of Science and >>>> > technology >>>>> >> >>>>> >> through its principal investigator on glaciology has argued >>>> > that "the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> ecology, the environment and health of the glacier can be >>>> > under >>>>> >> >>>>> >> severe threat in case the Baltal route to the Holy Cave was >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > frequented by thousands of pilgrims". And pointed out that "depletion >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > and degradation (of glaciers) are the result of human breath, refuse >>>>> >> >>>>> >> and >>>> > land erosion". (The Tribune July 5, 2005). >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> It is disconcerting to >>>> > note that opening of Baltal route for pilgrims >>>>> >> >>>>> >> on foot and those using >>>> > helicopters has crossed several thousand >>>>> >> >>>>> >> every day. Apart from the >>>> > Department of Science and Technology of J&K >>>>> >> >>>>> >> government even the Nitish >>>> > Sengupta committee, which was constituted >>>>> >> >>>>> >> to look into the deaths of 243 >>>> > pilgrims in 1996 due to the snowstorm, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> had recommended that number of >>>> > yatris be restricted to 5000 per day >>>>> >> >>>>> >> for a period of one month and the >>>> > total number of pilgrims be capped >>>>> >> >>>>> >> at1.5 lakhs. According to them Baltal >>>> > route should allow 1500 >>>>> >> >>>>> >> pilgrims and Pahalgam 3500 per day. However, the >>>> > General JR Mukherjee >>>>> >> >>>>> >> committee, which looked into the cause of death of >>>> > 35 people, due to >>>>> >> >>>>> >> cross fire, during the 2000 yatra, focussed on >>>> > security arrangement >>>>> >> >>>>> >> and wanted the duration of the yatra to increase as >>>> > security scenario >>>>> >> >>>>> >> improved. But neither report looked at the >>>> > environmental impact of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> the yatra. Thus when the SASB invokes the >>>> > recommendations of the two >>>>> >> >>>>> >> committees what it does is to use it >>>> > selectively and link the number >>>>> >> >>>>> >> of pilgrims to the issue of managing >>>> > security for them. In this sense >>>>> >> >>>>> >> they underplay the question whether the >>>> > eco-system can bear heavy >>>>> >> >>>>> >> influx of pilgrims. This emphasis on >>>> > encouraging larger number of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> pilgrims shows its impact on the >>>> > environment in unexpected ways. Such >>>>> >> >>>>> >> as the SASB contemplating "air >>>> > conditioning" to preserve the shiva >>>>> >> >>>>> >> lingam from melting. The recent >>>> > controversy over the pilgrims >>>>> >> >>>>> >> alleging that the SASB has been >>>> > constructing the "snow lingam" is now >>>>> >> >>>>> >> being passed off as due to change >>>> > in the course of the water channels >>>>> >> >>>>> >> after last year's earthquake and >>>> > global warming. Without ruling this >>>>> >> >>>>> >> out human contribution to this >>>> > phenomenon cannot be ignored when >>>>> >> >>>>> >> glaciers are rapidly receding. As a >>>> > matter of fact yatra was never >>>>> >> >>>>> >> undertaken in June precisely because >>>> > formation of shiva lingam does >>>>> >> >>>>> >> not always take place then. Incidentally >>>> > the local people speak of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> "human" intervention in restoring what is a >>>> > natural phenomenon, as >>>>> >> >>>>> >> something that has happened in the past too. This >>>> > apart large number >>>>> >> >>>>> >> of pilgrims means that going gets tough as one draws >>>> > close to the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> cave with traffic jam being the order of the day. At times >>>> > pilgrims >>>>> >> >>>>> >> have to wait for hours for their turn. Increase in dust in >>>> > atmosphere >>>>> >> >>>>> >> too is caused by crowds of people as well as helicopter >>>> > service. The >>>>> >> >>>>> >> dust raised is visible from long distance away. All this >>>> > also means >>>>> >> >>>>> >> that individual pilgrims, that is other than VIPs, are >>>> > disallowed >>>>> >> >>>>> >> from spending more than seconds inside the cave. Above all >>>> > carbon >>>>> >> >>>>> >> dioxide levels shoot up warming the area all around. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> It >>>> > cannot be that the SASB is unaware of the environmental concerns. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> If it >>>> > receives short shrift it is because the yatra has come to >>>>> >> >>>>> >> symbolise >>>> > Indian government's determination to promote its claim in >>>>> >> >>>>> >> J&K. That >>>> > pilgrimage is being heralded as victory against a movement >>>>> >> >>>>> >> demanding >>>> > azadi from India is available in the news portal of Indian >>>>> >> >>>>> >> government, >>>> > Press Information Bureau. It says that "yearning for >>>>> >> >>>>> >> moksha (salvation) >>>> > can move the devotees to the challenging heights >>>>> >> >>>>> >> of Kashmir and will be >>>> > a fitting gesture of solidarity with our >>>>> >> >>>>> >> valiant soldiers who have been >>>> > fighting the enemy to defend our >>>>> >> >>>>> >> borders". >>>> > (pib.nic.in/feature/feo799/f1507992.html >>>> ). Thus what is >>>>> >> >>>>> >> otherwise merely >>>> > a religious pilgrimage of the Hindus has been >>>>> >> >>>>> >> elevated to represent a >>>> > patriotic enterprise. Besides, the SASB is >>>>> >> >>>>> >> headed by the Governor and >>>> > his principal secretary is the CEO of the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> SASB. Thus the Government of >>>> > India is clearly in charge of organising >>>>> >> >>>>> >> the yatra. And it is the SASB >>>> > which has been pushing for larger and >>>>> >> >>>>> >> larger numbers of pilgrims and >>>> > challenging the right of the state >>>>> >> >>>>> >> government from interfering in anyway >>>> > with the schedule announced by >>>>> >> >>>>> >> the SASB. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> It is true that not >>>> > everyone who goes to Amarnath accepts this >>>>> >> >>>>> >> association of religion with >>>> > patriotism. But the fact of the matter >>>>> >> >>>>> >> is that official perception of >>>> > pilgrimage as patriotic duty has >>>>> >> >>>>> >> allowed the communal fascist elements >>>> > to join in organising their >>>>> >> >>>>> >> supporters. Little wonder that frequency of >>>> > conflict between section >>>>> >> >>>>> >> of such 'pilgrims' and local population due to >>>> > their obnoxious >>>>> >> >>>>> >> behaviour has shown an increase. What is equally >>>> > disconcerting is >>>>> >> >>>>> >> that the SASB presided over by the Governor has also >>>> > been engaged in >>>>> >> >>>>> >> controversial transactions. The CEO of SASB is the >>>> > principal >>>>> >> >>>>> >> secretary to the Governor. Present CEO's wife, in her capacity >>>> > of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Principal secretary forest department granted permission to SASB >>>> > on >>>>> >> >>>>> >> May 29, 2005 to use forest land. But this provision was not in >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > accordance with the provision of J&K Forest Conservation Act 1997 >>>>> >> >>>>> >> and, >>>> > therefore, the state government withdrew the order. However, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> thanks to a >>>> > stay order by a division bench of the J&K High Court the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> withdrawal of >>>> > permission to occupy forest land, was suspended. Any >>>>> >> >>>>> >> visitor to Pahalgam >>>> > can observe how this forest land is being cleared >>>>> >> >>>>> >> to setup camps for the >>>> > yatris. In fact now the SASB has asked the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> state government to give them >>>> > land in the radius of 5kms of the cave. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> This arouses local passions >>>> > precisely because Indian security forces >>>>> >> >>>>> >> and other entities have >>>> > transferred large tracts of land to house >>>>> >> >>>>> >> camps for security force >>>> > personnel, or for central projects, as well >>>>> >> >>>>> >> as for schools which are run >>>> > by army among others. Even a pro-Indian >>>>> >> >>>>> >> National Conference party has >>>> > protested such transfers of land since >>>>> >> >>>>> >> 1989. Not very far from the camp >>>> > for the pilgrims in Pahalgam, in >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Lidru (opposite Kulan village) what >>>> > locals describe as one of the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> finest meadows, spread over 550 kanals >>>> > (one kanal=one eighth of acre) >>>>> >> >>>>> >> in area, has been given to the army to >>>> > run a school! Local population >>>>> >> >>>>> >> feels helpless at being unable to stop >>>> > this. Therefore, when SASB >>>>> >> >>>>> >> wants large tract of land transferred to it >>>> > under the claim of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> providing accommodation for lakhs of pilgrims it must >>>> > be weighed >>>>> >> >>>>> >> against this local concern. Were the numbers of pilgrims to >>>> > be >>>>> >> >>>>> >> brought down the pressing need for transferring large areas to >>>> > SASB >>>>> >> >>>>> >> or for providing carpet security and thus deployment of force, can >>>> > be >>>>> >> >>>>> >> brought down. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> This apart the SASB has also been involved in >>>> > other controversial >>>>> >> >>>>> >> acts. One such was the recent attempt by the SASB to >>>> > bring down the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> involvement of local people in the yatra. When on June 5, >>>> > 2006 the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> local pro-India Peoples' Democratic Party (PDP) claimed that >>>> > SASB was >>>>> >> >>>>> >> ignoring livelihood of locals, the SASB countered by claiming >>>> > that >>>>> >> >>>>> >> such criticism would generate controversy and thus >>>> > "jeopardise" >>>>> >> >>>>> >> tourism in Kashmir. Quite apart from the fact that >>>> > promotion of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> pilgrimage for commerce flies in the face of proclaimed >>>> > concern for >>>>> >> >>>>> >> people's faith PDP pointed out that if local porters and >>>> > ponywallahs >>>>> >> >>>>> >> can strike work at Vaishnodevi Shrine against the >>>> > (mis)management of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> the Shri Vaishnodevi Shrine Board (SVDSB) and seek >>>> > support from local >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Congress leaders then what is wrong if local people >>>> > from Pahalgam and >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Kangan areas seek their help to protest against the >>>> > practises of SASB >>>>> >> >>>>> >> which discriminate against them. In fact the Pithoo >>>> > Workers Union at >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Katra have protested the suspension of six of their >>>> > leaders, alleged >>>>> >> >>>>> >> manhandling by SVDSB officials and demanded recall of >>>> > its additional >>>>> >> >>>>> >> CEO. Neither the Governor as head of SVDSB nor the Board >>>> > issued any >>>>> >> >>>>> >> statement chastising the Congress party! >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Arguably, >>>> > when yatra was halted between 1991-96 due to threat of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> section of the >>>> > militants it played into the hands of the extreme >>>>> >> >>>>> >> right wing elements in >>>> > Indian society who have since then become an >>>>> >> >>>>> >> integral part of mobilising >>>> > large numbers of pilgrims. Thus a form of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> competitive communalism came >>>> > into play. Thus when section of the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> militants represented earlier by >>>> > Harkatul Ansar and now Lashkar-e- >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Taiyyaba or Jaish-e-Mohammed threaten >>>> > to disrupt the pilgrimage it >>>>> >> >>>>> >> only gets the backs up of the devout Hindus >>>> > opens them to vitriol of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> the rabidly anti-Muslim Vishwa Hindu Parishad >>>> > (VHP), Shiv Sena etc. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> and accentuates the communal divide. However, it >>>> > is equally important >>>>> >> >>>>> >> to note the actual fact that more people have died >>>> > in yatra due to >>>>> >> >>>>> >> inclement weather and cross fire than at the hands of >>>> > the militants. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Besides, the main indigenous militant organisation Hizbul >>>> > Mujahideen >>>>> >> >>>>> >> has always supported the yatra and has consistently >>>> > demonstrated its >>>>> >> >>>>> >> opposition towards those who have tried to disrupt the >>>> > yatra. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Moreover, prior to constituting SASB the state government, >>>> > local >>>>> >> >>>>> >> people and social activists provided aid and assistance to >>>> > the >>>>> >> >>>>> >> pilgrims. However, threat of environmental damage has become a >>>> > matter >>>>> >> >>>>> >> of utmost concern because the central government under the cover >>>> > of >>>>> >> >>>>> >> SASB remains unrelenting in its pursuit of ever larger numbers >>>> > to >>>>> >> >>>>> >> come for pilgrimage. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> In a way the Amarnath yatra illustrates >>>> > the way in which the Indian >>>>> >> >>>>> >> government injects communalism in our body >>>> > politic. And also >>>>> >> >>>>> >> represents how secularism in India has been perverted >>>> > to mean state >>>>> >> >>>>> >> patronage of religion/s. This patronage is not equitably >>>> > distributed >>>>> >> >>>>> >> since Hindus outnumber others by more than eight times. >>>> > Which is to >>>>> >> >>>>> >> say that between un-equals equality ends up promoting Hindu >>>> > religious >>>>> >> >>>>> >> practises. In Amarnath yatra, in fact, the India government >>>> > even >>>>> >> >>>>> >> discarded its pretended neutrality by publicising the yatra as >>>> > a >>>>> >> >>>>> >> patriotic duty! Consequently, the likelihood of Amarnath >>>> > pilgrimage >>>>> >> >>>>> >> getting mired in controversy, over environmental damage >>>> > and >>>>> >> >>>>> >> eventually feeding into further alienation of people because they >>>> > can >>>>> >> >>>>> >> do little to save damage to their lived environment, has >>>> > increased. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Trouble is the Indian government cares little for people and >>>> > prefers >>>>> >> >>>>> >> to pander to the extreme rightwing by projecting the yatra as >>>> > a >>>>> >> >>>>> >> patriotic enterprise to boost the morale of the Indian >>>> > paramilitary >>>>> >> >>>>> >> forces. The very same force which the local population >>>> > regards as >>>>> >> >>>>> >> symbol of their oppression. Thus a bigger mess is in the >>>> > making right >>>>> >> >>>>> >> before our own eyes. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> --------------- >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>>> >> >>>>> >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Raqs Media >>>> > Collective >>>>> >> >>>>> >> shuddha at sarai.net >>>>> >> >>>>> >> www.sarai.net >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > _________________________________________ >>>>> >> >>>>> >> reader-list: an open >>>> > discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> ... >>>>> >> >>>>> >> [Message clipped] >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>> > >>>> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>> > >>>> > Raqs Media >>>> > Collective >>>> > >>>> > shuddha at sarai.net >>>> > >>>> > www.sarai.net >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> _________________________________________ >>> re >>>> > ader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & >>>> > Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>> > with subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: >>>> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>>> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >> >> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pkray11 at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 12:12:09 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 12:12:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra Message-ID: <98f331e00807012342y4adec6d1t802f51cbf4c51eaf@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aarti, Everywhere in the country, even in the world, people do care for each other. They may have their prejudices or differences, but they never fail to perform their humane responsibilities. It is the communal groups which try to politicise the differences and make benefit out of it. The same thing is happening in Kashmir today. 'While Mr Geelani and Mr Togadia may be enemies, the fact is they are enemies with the same cause' (P Swami, The Hindu, July 1, 2008). The same cause is to deepen the communal divide in the J & K further. Regards, P From kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 2 12:57:53 2008 From: kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk (Kashmir Affairs) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 07:27:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0806301000u1c969e3ft44e1c83094d49ab7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <632009.16867.qm@web27803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Aarthi, Kashmiri Muslims offering food and shelter to the yatris is old practice. I will give you one example in recent times. When in 1996 due to unseasonal blizzards and uncontrollable number of yatris [70,000 on one day by some accounts], the yatris were stranded for nearly a week. People in Islamabad [Anantnag] made free langers at Nai Basti, Sarnal, Kadipora, Khanabal, Anchidora, Mattan and Che and sheltered thousands of yatris in their homes, shops and even mosques. In Che, there was a small incident which i thought was funny, when the yatris thanking god for thier safety started shouting 'bolo amarnath ki jai' while housed in mosque. However, Yatris were not thrown out of the mosque, though some people questioned the practice while others laughed. As a child we used to stand on the either side of road in Kadipora greeting walking yatris with 'babu ji sitaram'..... Certainly those days yatra was peaceful and a very low key affair. But now as any religion is marketed and branded, Amarnath Yatra has fallen to it as well. Murtaza Shibli www.kashmiraffairs.org --- On Mon, 30/6/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: From: Aarti Sethi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" Cc: "sarai list" <> Date: Monday, 30 June, 2008, 6:00 PM Apropos this, today's express or TOI I forget which has a story on Kashmiri Muslim's setting up food stalls and rest houses for stranded pilgrims. Several pilgrims were housed in people's homes when they discovered they had nowhere to stay. On being asked they said this was nothing new and that the local Muslim community had been hosting poilgrims for the lat hundred years and they saw no reason to change this tradition despite the current fracas over land allotment. So I would suggest Pavan that you excercise a little restraint before you make intemperate remarks about intolerance. best A On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 9:57 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: s://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> __________________________________________________________ Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 13:30:53 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 13:30:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra In-Reply-To: <632009.16867.qm@web27803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <48c2916d0806301000u1c969e3ft44e1c83094d49ab7@mail.gmail.com> <632009.16867.qm@web27803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807020100h29978b97uabae6b39432d1014@mail.gmail.com> Hello Murtaza , Three points from me :- 1. A single langar for media glare can not hide the fact of intolerance towards anything to do with hindus in Kashmir . Had people been so tolerant hundred of temples wouldnt have been destroyed or occupied by fanatics. Also the relegios cleansing of Hindus nin Kashmir would have never happened. 2. Your greeting of "BabuJi Sitaram" is something funny . People greet pligrims with Bam Bam Bole .....maybe you missed on that. 3. And whats wrong with facilities , if Hajis can travel by Air instead of land or sea travel , why the facilities of Amarnath pligrims raised eyebrows. This a age of convenience ,......let everyone have it. Pawan On 7/2/08, Kashmir Affairs wrote: > > Aarthi, > Kashmiri Muslims offering food and shelter to the yatris is old practice. I > will give you one example in recent times. When in 1996 due to unseasonal > blizzards and uncontrollable number of yatris [70,000 on one day by some > accounts], the yatris were stranded for nearly a week. > People in Islamabad [Anantnag] made free langers at Nai Basti, Sarnal, > Kadipora, Khanabal, Anchidora, Mattan and Che and sheltered thousands of > yatris in their homes, shops and even mosques. In Che, there was a small > incident which i thought was funny, when the yatris thanking god for thier > safety started shouting 'bolo amarnath ki jai' while housed in mosque. > However, Yatris were not thrown out of the mosque, though some people > questioned the practice while others laughed. > As a child we used to stand on the either side of road in Kadipora greeting > walking yatris with 'babu ji sitaram'..... Certainly those days yatra was > peaceful and a very low key affair. But now as any religion is marketed and > branded, Amarnath Yatra has fallen to it as well. > > Murtaza Shibli > www.kashmiraffairs.org > > --- On Mon, 30/6/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > From: Aarti Sethi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: "sarai list" <> > Date: Monday, 30 June, 2008, 6:00 PM > > Apropos this, today's express or TOI I forget which has a story on Kashmiri > Muslim's setting up food stalls and rest houses for stranded pilgrims. > Several pilgrims were housed in people's homes when they discovered they > had > nowhere to stay. On being asked they said this was nothing new and that the > local Muslim community had been hosting poilgrims for the lat hundred years > and they saw no reason to change this tradition despite the current fracas > over land allotment. So I would suggest Pavan that you excercise a little > restraint before you make intemperate remarks about intolerance. > > best > A > > On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 9:57 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > wrote: > s://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > __________________________________________________________ > Not happy with your email address?. > Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now > at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From iram at sarai.net Wed Jul 2 13:46:00 2008 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:46:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Re: Amaranth Yatra - Sonia Jabbar's response In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <486B3940.7000309@sarai.net> S. Jabbar wrote: ...As for Rajouri & Poonch I may as well say this straight out as I don¹t know when they will fix the bug that bounces my mails back to me. I traveled extensively in that region in 2006. I was shocked at how wretched it is. They have borne the brunt of the violence from Pakistan from 1947 onwards and unlike Kashmiris do not have a lobby and so do not jet around the world to advertise their suffering. The roads are rotten, there is no development, and they are targeted by the militants and under suspicion by the sec. forces. Before the ceasefire they were regularly hammered by shelling. Because Kashmir is ŒMuslim¹ and Jammu is ŒHindu¹ and such has been the state¹s miserable politics these people have been left out in the cold as nowhere people, or 2nd class citizens. The same goes for the people of Akhnoor who have been displaced because of the shelling and the mines laid on their lands. They continued to live in tented camps even after the cease fire because their lands could not be cleared of landmines. There is no Hindu-Muslim angle to this & so they are ignored by all political parties & citizens groups alike. Before 1947 all border areas whether Akhnoor, Rajouri, Poonch, Uri, Keran, Karnah were geographically linked to what is now Azad Kashmir. Their roads and communications were with Sialkot, Mirpur & Muzaffarabad. Both the Valley of Kashmir and Jammu were largely irrelevant to the people living in these areas because of difficulty in communications across the Pir Panjal. The border in 1947 changed all that. Now these areas are backward frontiers. People have no access to the Œoutside world¹ save through the one, long and totally unreliable road link to Jammu. When I traveled there I experienced the nightmare. Large sections of the highway are regularly washed away during the monsoon and repaired in a casual manner. The result is the bus ride from Jammu takes the whole day to Rajouri where you have to spend the night and then another 6-7 hrs to Poonch. The Mughal Road would speed up communications and provide an all-weather alternative when the main link is down. I don¹t know why my enthusiasm for this road has excited your suspicion and hostility. Even as the road from Lahaul through Zanskar is destroying some of the most pristine Himalayan landscapes, I recognize the legitimate desire for the people of Ladakh, Kargil and Zanskar to have an all-weather road. Surely the Mughal Road can be seen in the same spirit. Best Sj > > On 7/1/08 3:32 PM, "Kshmendra Kaul" wrote: > > Dear Sonia Could you please substantiate with some facts/data your > statement that the people of Rajouri and Poonch are "2nd class citizens of > J&K" Who are these people? What identifies them? How are they "2nd class > citizens"? You have made a generalised comment about "the people of Rajouri > and Poonch". Did you mean to refer to a specific group? You talk about > their "isolation". What kind of isolation? What is the "second link to the > outside world" that you have in mind? What is that "outside world"? What > "world" are they currently confined to? Kshmendra Kaul > --- On Mon, 6/30/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > > From: S. Jabbar > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What Mughal Road didn ¹ t that shrine > land-transfer plans did - Kavita Suri > To: "Aditya Raj Kaul" , "sarai list" > > Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 1:50 PM > It's interesting that all this is coming out now. I had no idea about the > 10,000 trees cut to make way for the Mughal Rd or the Markhor sanctuary > being threatened. Both are reasons enough to rethink the project, even > though I feel the people of Rajouri & Poonch need a second link to the > outside world to end their isolation that have made them 2nd class citizens > of J&K since 1947. The Mughal Road project has been going on for quite > sometime now, it's strange that Dr. Singh, Agnishekhar et al did not raise > their voices earlier... Or did I miss something? > > From kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 2 12:55:45 2008 From: kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk (Kashmir Affairs) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 07:25:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0806301000u1c969e3ft44e1c83094d49ab7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <474042.23302.qm@web27807.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Aarthi, Kashmiri Muslims offering food and shelter to the yatris is old practice. I will give you one example in recent times. When in 1996 due to unseasonal blizzards and uncontrollable number of yatris [70,000 on one day by some accounts], the yatris were stranded for nearly a week. People in Islamabad [Anantnag] made free langers at Nai Basti, Sarnal, Kadipora, Khanabal, Anchidora, Mattan and Che and sheltered thousands of yatris in their homes, shops and even mosques. In Che, there was a small incident which i thought was funny, when the yatris thanking god for thier safety started shouting 'bolo amarnath ki jai' while housed in mosque. However, Yatris were not thrown out of the mosque, though some people questioned the practice while others laughed. As a child we used to stand on the either side of road in Kadipora greeting walking yatris with 'babu ji sitaram'..... Certainly those days yatra was peaceful and a very low key affair. But now as any religion is marketed and branded, Amarnath Yatra has fallen to it as well. Murtaza Shibli www.kashmiraffairs.org --- On Mon, 30/6/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: From: Aarti Sethi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" Cc: "sarai list" Date: Monday, 30 June, 2008, 6:00 PM Apropos this, today's express or TOI I forget which has a story on Kashmiri Muslim's setting up food stalls and rest houses for stranded pilgrims. Several pilgrims were housed in people's homes when they discovered they had nowhere to stay. On being asked they said this was nothing new and that the local Muslim community had been hosting poilgrims for the lat hundred years and they saw no reason to change this tradition despite the current fracas over land allotment. So I would suggest Pavan that you excercise a little restraint before you make intemperate remarks about intolerance. best A On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 9:57 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Pawan, > > That is your opinion, not a substantiated fact. As far as I have > seen, there has not been a single statement made against Hindu > pligrims by anyone in the leadership or the constituency of the > movement against land transfer in Kashmir. And until such a statement > is made, we cannot say that it arises out of a 'resentment towards > hindu pligrims'. People across the spectrum of political opinion in > Kashmir have taken pains to point out that they welcome pilgrims. And > the question of the acquisition of land has nothing to do with > pilgrims. There is a long history of arbitrary acquisition and > occupation of land, including orchards, schools, meadows, pastures, > grazing comons and private homes in Kashmir, especially by the Armed > Forces and paramilitaries, it is possible that the movement we see > crystallizes the pent up feeling of anger against this long history > of land acquisition. > > An audit of the impact of land acquisition on the ecology and social > fabric of Kashmir (on both sides of the line of control) is still > pending. > > best > > Shuddha > > > > On 30-Jun-08, at 9:24 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Dear Shuddha , > > > > > > > > While I may trust your belief in ecological fallout , i completely > > disagree with your understanding that the issue is not about the > > resentment towards hindu pligrims. > > > > > > > > It is all about that , non tolerance towards so called hindus or > > what they love to call...."Kufr". > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/30/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > > > Just because a terrain does not have trees, or that the altitude it > > is located in happens to be above the treeline, does not mean that > > it is not ecologically sensitive. > > > > Often, it is precisely terrain of this nature, such as for instance > > is at the vicinity of the mouth of the Gomukh glacier above > > Gangotri,(again above the treeline) that is extremely fragile and > > needs very careful nurturing. > > > > > > > > I know for a fact that the ecosystem of the Gomukh glacial region > > is very badly threatened because of the completely haphazard way in > > which access to this region (and the logistics of pilgrimage and > > tourism) has been managed. I can very easily see that something > > similar can happen in the case of Amarnath. > > > > > > > > I would urge you not to make the discussion of this question into a > > 'Hindu' question. It is not one, it is about the way in which State > > managed, so called, 'Temple Development Boards', enter into schemes > > to grab land, and about the ecological consequences of their land- > > grabbing propensities. > > > > > > > > You might recall that some months back you tried to pose the > > question of the building of a shipping canal between India and Sri > > Lanka as a matter of hurting Hindu sentiments. I endorsed your > > opposition to the so called 'Sethu-Samudram Shipping Channel' > > scheme, because to me it represented a threat to a fragile marine > > ecosystem, not on the basis of its alleged injury to Hindu > > sentiments. I also pointed out to you and to others on the list > > that the protectors of Hindutva, while proposing a Panama Canal > > style waterway cutting through the apex of the Deccan peninsula as > > an alternative to the 'Sethu-Samudram' plan were also proposing > > what was certainly a blueprint for an ecological disaster. > > > > > > > > Opposition to the proposed (and now rescinded) land grab proposal > > by the SASB in the Amarnath case does not automatically translate > > into partisanship across the Hindu-Muslim question in Kashmir. > > Those who translate it as such, whether they are Hindu, or Muslim, > > are needlessly confusing a straightforward matter by bringing their > > own secterian biases to bear on the issue. No one should be misled > > by such attempts at confusion. > > > > > > > > best > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 30-Jun-08, at 4:44 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > >> Hello Shuddha , > >> > >> > >> > >> Lemme just inform everyone that , the land may have belonged to > >> Forest > >> > >> Department , but there is no single tree over there. > >> > >> > >> > >> Even when you reach Amarntah , there are no trees over there , > >> becuase of > >> > >> high altitude. > >> > >> > >> > >> I visited the site, Baltal , two years back. > >> > >> > >> > >> Unfortunately the issue is not about ecology ..... the way it has > >> been > >> > >> treated is a pure indicator that anything related to Hindus is not > >> tolerable > >> > >> in Kashmir, and proves once again that it is not "freedom" but > >> Islamic > >> > >> fanaticism which rules the shot in Kashmir. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Pawan > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 6/30/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> Dear Sonia, Dear Rashneek, dear all, > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Thank you, Sonia and Rashneek for the debate on the Amarnath Yatra > >>> > >>> issue. The question of temple boards and their closeness to power, > >>> > >>> and their lust for acquiring forest lands is not unique to Kashmir. > >>> > >>> It also happens, as you will see below, (see the report - > >>> Sabarimala: > >>> > >>> The Faith in Spate, by K.A. Shaji) in distant Kerala. The ruling > >>> left > >>> > >>> front government in Kerala is as involved in this game as anyone > >>> > >>> else, because 'Temple Boards' are gold-mines and no state government > >>> > >>> wants to close an operation that earns them the gold that can be > >>> > >>> mined in these gold mines. I am appending below a report on the > >>> > >>> question of the Sabarimala Temple boards desire for even more > >>> > >>> reserved forest land. The story is remarkably resonant of the > >>> > >>> Amarnath issue. A local, highly culturally specific, syncretic > >>> > >>> pilgrimage turning into the road-show of a revivalist 'Hinduism', > >>> > >>> with lucrative revenue spin-offs. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I live in an area in Delhi where I have witnessed every year, for > >>> the > >>> > >>> past few years - 'Chalo Amarnath Chalo' (Let's go to Amarnath) > >>> > >>> posters and banners being put up by local RSS functionaries. And > >>> > >>> there are active fundraising drives which culminate in a > >>> cavalcade of > >>> > >>> Tata Sumos with the local 'Youth' blaring 'bhajans' from their > >>> > >>> booming auto-sound systems taking off to go do 'darshan' of the > >>> > >>> melting lingam. I don't think they (the Sumo Pilgrims of my > >>> > >>> neighbourhood) really care whether or not the forests of Kashmir go > >>> > >>> up in smoke. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I also know that the Sabarimala pilgrimage has been twisted out of > >>> > >>> shape in a similar way, both by Hindutva enthusiasts, and by > >>> > >>> construction contractors close to the ruling Left Front. Fragile > >>> > >>> forests can barely sustain the burden of so much sudden faith. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Incidentally, revivalist Hindus are by no means alone in their > >>> > >>> disregard for the local heritage and environment. The ruling > >>> > >>> dispensation in Saudi Arabia has effectively turned the pilgrimage > >>> > >>> sites of Mecca and Medina into an air-conditioned cultural > >>> wasteland. > >>> > >>> it has systematically destroyed shrines that were considered holy by > >>> > >>> millions of Muslim pilgrims, especially from South Asia, and > >>> > >>> completely transformed the intricate urban fabric of Mecca and > >>> > >>> Medina. There is a long history of protest, including in India, by > >>> > >>> Muslims against the way in which the Saudi Government, in cohorts > >>> > >>> with the Wahabi establishment has wrecked the topography of Mecca > >>> and > >>> > >>> Medina. Similarly, the Israeli state's policy of expansion, through > >>> > >>> settlements, and building high security segregated roads that cut > >>> > >>> through the west bank of the Jordan river are often camouflaged > >>> under > >>> > >>> an appeal to scriptural sanction for 'Greater' or 'Eretz' Israel. > >>> > >>> There is a great deal of money to be made in pilgrimage, and it > >>> > >>> affords everybody an opportunity to make some quick transformations > >>> > >>> of the landscape in the name of 'infrastructure development' and > >>> > >>> 'settlement' , both of which are euphemisms for speculation in real > >>> > >>> estate. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I am also appending a detailed report on the environmental impact of > >>> > >>> what was proposed by the erstwhile governor Gen (Retd) Sinha of > >>> Jammu > >>> > >>> and Kashmir for the Amarnath Yatra by Gautam Navlakha that appeared > >>> > >>> recently in the website of a journal called Kashmir Affairs. > >>> Finally, > >>> > >>> it is not my case that the acquisition of land for the Amarnath > >>> Board > >>> > >>> (SASB) is wrong, and the acquisition of land for the so-called > >>> > >>> 'Mughal Road', which has been pointed out by Aditya Raj Kaul, in a > >>> > >>> recent post is wrong. Both are equally disastrous from the > >>> > >>> environmental point of view. And the silence of political formations > >>> > >>> (of all persuasions) on the environmental impact of the revived > >>> > >>> Mughal Road and their recent discovery of environmentalism (in the > >>> > >>> case of the Amarnath land transfer issue) does make their commitment > >>> > >>> to environmentalism somewhat suspect. The PDP's stance is > >>> > >>> particularly hypocritical, as the original decision has been > >>> ratified > >>> > >>> by its own minister, (for Forest) in the (Indian Held) J&K state > >>> > >>> government. Still, even if the commitment of all the protagonists is > >>> > >>> suspect, I must say that I have rarely seen a popular movement > >>> > >>> reverse a state-driven decision on an 'environmental' issue, and the > >>> > >>> recent success of the agitation in Kashmir (whatever be the motives > >>> > >>> that impelled it) which has resulted in a reversal of the Land > >>> > >>> Transfer issue is something to be grateful for. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> These are issues that need to be seen quite separately from > >>> secterian > >>> > >>> concerns. I hope this debate can help us see them in that way. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> best > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Shuddha > >>> > >>> ------------------- > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> 1. Sabarimala: The Faith in Spate > >>> > >>> by K A Shaji > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> http://www.boloji.com/society/115.htm > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Legend has it that when Lord Ayyappa set out to seek solitude, he > >>> > >>> settled upon Sabarimala. Its sylvan surroundings and undulating > >>> > >>> terrain had made it an ideal retreat for the bachelor god. The > >>> > >>> pristine monsoon forests had wrapped like an ornament around his > >>> > >>> hermitage at the top of the hill. The Lord believed to have called > >>> > >>> the area with tranquil atmosphere as his poonkavanam (sacred > >>> forest). > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> A shrine inside the forest and a deity who chose the calm > >>> ambience of > >>> > >>> hills and valleys has few parallels in the country and outside. But > >>> > >>> now, it seems, all of the glories of Sabarimala were a thing of the > >>> > >>> past. When mythology meets present-day reality, Sabarimala is no > >>> more > >>> > >>> a chosen abode of the hermit God. During January-February each year, > >>> > >>> more than 50 million devotees, as claimed by the temple authorities, > >>> > >>> are thronging this forest temple for annual pilgrimage, putting the > >>> > >>> fragile ecology of the region under severe stress. Now, the holy > >>> hill > >>> > >>> is a synonym of increasing inflow of pilgrims, inadequate > >>> > >>> infrastructure, a devastated environment and a hapless wildlife. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> While the entire hill and the adjacent river Pampa, the third > >>> largest > >>> > >>> river in Kerala, are stinking due to sewage pollution and > >>> > >>> accumulation of garbage, the situation is not much different in the > >>> > >>> administrative and spiritual circles of the hill shrine. First, it > >>> > >>> was a controversy involving Kannada film actress Jayamala and a > >>> group > >>> > >>> of orthodox Hindus, who questioned her claim of touching the idol of > >>> > >>> the bachelor god defying the barricades meant for preventing > >>> sexually > >>> > >>> active women from entering the hill shrine. Then one of the highly > >>> > >>> revered traditional priests of the temple was robbed of a large > >>> > >>> amount of money and gold ornaments during his visit to the house > >>> of a > >>> > >>> woman engaged in flesh trade by a mafia gang. And now, it is the > >>> turn > >>> > >>> of aged father of a senior priest to allege that his son is under > >>> > >>> influence of a powerful Ezhava community leader with shadowy nature > >>> > >>> and the leader's followers are using his son to pocket the temple > >>> > >>> money. In the meantime, the Left Front Government has disbanded the > >>> > >>> existing administrative body of the temple citing corruption at high > >>> > >>> level and is preparing to enact a legislation to keep the corrupt > >>> > >>> community leaders out of the administrative body forever. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On monetary grounds, the temple is the third largest in the country, > >>> > >>> standing very close to Tirupathi and Guruvayur. The cash-strapped > >>> > >>> Kerala Government, despite its leftist moorings, is depending very > >>> > >>> much on the income from the temple to meet salary needs of its > >>> > >>> employees. In order to increase the revenue, the successive > >>> > >>> governments and the so-called proponents of development are > >>> > >>> vociferous of implementing multi-crore construction plans in > >>> > >>> Sabarimala clearing forests and building a concrete jungle in its > >>> > >>> place. But nobody in the spiritual and administrative levels of the > >>> > >>> temple as well as the government establishment are apprehensive of > >>> > >>> the increasing level of pollution and the extreme level of > >>> > >>> deforestation. Their focus is entangled only in the growing > >>> number of > >>> > >>> controversies and the commissions to be available after the > >>> beginning > >>> > >>> of the construction work. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Located about 467 metres above sea level, the Sabarimala temple is > >>> > >>> surrounded by 18 hills and situated inside Periyar Tiger Reserve, > >>> one > >>> > >>> of the few safe havens for tigers in the country. According to bird > >>> > >>> watcher B.Sethumadhavan, as many as 2000 species of flowering > >>> plants, > >>> > >>> endemic and medicinal, have been identified among the region's > >>> flora. > >>> > >>> `` About 63 species of mammals, some of them endangered like tigers, > >>> > >>> elephants and lion tailed macaque live here. So far, 223 species of > >>> > >>> birds and 45 species of reptiles including King Cobra have been > >>> > >>> identified in this area,'' he said. The ever- expanding number of > >>> > >>> pilgrims and mindless construction works are posing severe threat to > >>> > >>> their very survival. Devotees of a Lord, who believed to have loved > >>> > >>> the flora and fauna and their safekeeping, are now on a rampage in > >>> > >>> the name of development forcing the wildlife to move out of their > >>> > >>> traditional habitat. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> As per legends, the vehicle of Lord Ayyappa is tiger. But, > >>> > >>> astonishingly, neither the tiger nor the surrounding evergreen > >>> > >>> forests do not come in the list of priorities before the |Travancore > >>> > >>> Devaswam Board, which administers the shrine. ``There was an > >>> increase > >>> > >>> of 35 per cent in revenue while comparing with last year during the > >>> > >>> November-December period. In the number of visitors, the increase is > >>> > >>> of 19 per cent. These figures show the need for immediate > >>> > >>> developmental works in Sabarimala. But there are agencies like > >>> Forest > >>> > >>> Department which cry for tigers and forests,'' alleges G.Raman Nair, > >>> > >>> outgoing president of the board. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> However, environmentalists and forest officials are countering the > >>> > >>> allegation. ``The development works so far at Pampa have made it > >>> > >>> impossible a soul-filling holy dip in river Pampa. At least, two > >>> > >>> scientific studies conducted by Government's own agencies had found > >>> > >>> that landslips and tremors would take place at the holy hillock any > >>> > >>> time largely because of the extensive concrete flooring at the > >>> temple > >>> > >>> premises. The devaswam is only interested in money making. It has no > >>> > >>> concern for the impending dangers for both nature and devotees,'' > >>> > >>> pointed out Sumesh Mangalassery, a member of the environmental group > >>> > >>> Kabani. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> According to Sumesh, a panel of Kerala Legislature on environment > >>> led > >>> > >>> by RSP leader A V Thamarakshan had submitted 32 proposals to the > >>> > >>> Devaswam Board to protect Sabarimala around five years back. But > >>> none > >>> > >>> of them were acceptable to the board. Even the suggestions of Kerala > >>> > >>> State Pollution Control Board to minimise the pollution of river > >>> > >>> Pampa were paid scant regard by the board. A visit by Tehelka to > >>> > >>> Sabarimala found that river Pampa continues to remain the main > >>> victim > >>> > >>> of the callous attitude of the authorities. It gets choked in the > >>> > >>> temple area as solid waste including human excreta; plastic bags, > >>> > >>> empty water bottles and coconut husks block the free flow of water. > >>> > >>> About 35 million people took a holy dip in the river between > >>> November > >>> > >>> and January, which is the major source of drinking water for three > >>> > >>> districts. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> According to a study by the pollution control board, the total > >>> > >>> coliform count recorded at the river portion close to Sabarimala is > >>> > >>> about 1,14,000 per 100 millilitres (ML) during the peak of > >>> > >>> pilgrimage. Just before the pilgrimage season, it is merely 380 per > >>> > >>> 100 ml- well below the permissible limits of 500 per 100 ml. > >>> > >>> According to local people, the overflow of human faeces from sceptic > >>> > >>> tanks around the temple stands the major reason of the pollution of > >>> > >>> the river. ``More than 3,000 temporary toilets are functioning close > >>> > >>> to the temple in addition to about 600 permanent toilets. The > >>> > >>> capacity of the sewerage treatment plant is very limited,'' pointed > >>> > >>> out K.Anirudhan of Sabarimala Samrakshana Samithy. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Most of the experts, who had conducted studies on the pollution and > >>> > >>> environmental problems prevailing in Sabarimala, point to the > >>> need of > >>> > >>> regulating the ever- increasing number of pilgrims. ``Sabarimala is > >>> > >>> bursting at the seams with millions of devotees now. Thirty or forty > >>> > >>> years ago, only around 50,000 pilgrims visited the temple. Today, > >>> the > >>> > >>> number is fifty million and is rising at the rate of 20 per cent > >>> > >>> every year. The ever-swelling flow resulted in a major mishap on > >>> > >>> January 14, 1999, when 100 pilgrims died in a stampede at the site. > >>> > >>> Indications are that Sabarimala is a disaster waiting to be > >>> happen,'' > >>> > >>> warns noted Kerala based environmentalist P K Uthaman. According to > >>> > >>> him, almost two thousand tonnes of human waste are deposited in > >>> crude > >>> > >>> earth pits and outside in Sabarimala every year. These wastes are > >>> > >>> finding their way into not only the river Pampa but also to river > >>> > >>> Periyar by underground as well as over ground rivulets, posing a > >>> > >>> threat great health hazard for the pilgrims as well as those living > >>> > >>> downstream. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> In addition, the lack of post pilgrimage cleaning drives often > >>> result > >>> > >>> in unabated flow of hazardous waste into the rivers. The temple area > >>> > >>> has already been converted into a concrete jungle where guesthouses > >>> > >>> and other structures are constructed haphazardly all around. They > >>> are > >>> > >>> meant for temple officials, priests, VVIPs and police personnel. > >>> > >>> According to M.Gopal, a pilgrim from Bangalore who visited > >>> Sabarimala > >>> > >>> this year, human excreta and plastic waste were found strewn just > >>> > >>> outside the Sannidhanam (the main building of the temple). As per > >>> > >>> data available from forest department, over 2.5 lakh empty plastic > >>> > >>> bottles of packaged water were collected from inside the tiger > >>> > >>> reserve. The number of tetra packs collected would come around 4.5 > >>> > >>> lakh. The temple complex of the hermit, who believed in renunciation > >>> > >>> of earthly attractions, is now filled with commercial shops selling > >>> > >>> products ranging from gold ornaments to dress materials. All these > >>> > >>> shops were constructed by clearing forests. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ``The total time available for darsan as of now is a total of 1431 > >>> > >>> hours, i.e. 515160 seconds. If a darsan goes on one at a time basis > >>> > >>> and a devotee gets a second, the total strength of the pilgrims can > >>> > >>> only be 5,15, 160 per year. If ten people could somehow cluster > >>> > >>> together per second for darsan, the maximum number would be > >>> > >>> 51,51,600,'' points out a document prepared by |School of Social > >>> > >>> Sciences at Mahatma Gandhi University on behalf of Kerla Forest > >>> > >>> Department. The document also questions the claims of the board that > >>> > >>> over 50 million people visit the temple annually. But anyway, the > >>> > >>> number of pilgrims' visting Sabarimala is many times more than its > >>> > >>> capacity. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ``The authorities must find out some mechanism to regulate the > >>> > >>> alarming increase in the number of pilgrims. Sabarimala is not only > >>> > >>> an environmental but also a social disaster,'' opined Dr.Rajan > >>> > >>> Gurukkal of School of Social Sciences. Now a day, the uncontrolled > >>> > >>> flow of pilgrims from various entry points is resulting in people > >>> > >>> swarming all around the protected sanctuary leading to man –animal > >>> > >>> conflicts. Recently, an elephant trampled upon one pilgrim. Then it > >>> > >>> was found that the pilgrims were sleeping in the corridor used by > >>> the > >>> > >>> elephants for going to the river to drink water at the night. A > >>> large > >>> > >>> number of such corridors were already disrupted due to the > >>> > >>> construction works undertaken in the recent past. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> According to Sedumadhavan, the authorities are even paying scant > >>> > >>> attention on the safety of pilgrims. As many as 12,000 litres of > >>> > >>> diesel are being stored just above the sannidhanam without any > >>> > >>> storage licence or safety parameters. They are also keeping a large > >>> > >>> number of crackers near the sanctum sanctoram without any safety > >>> > >>> concern. The only solution on the part of Trvancore Devaswom Board > >>> > >>> for all problems plaguing Sabarimala is denudation of nearby forests > >>> > >>> and setting up new amenities. According to Rajan Gurukkal, such an > >>> > >>> attempt would be disastrous as all the existing problems of > >>> > >>> Sabarimala can be viwed as the after effect of deforestation. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> The devaswam board has already ruined about 55.09 ha of > >>> forestland in > >>> > >>> the name of sabarimala development. In the opinion of > >>> > >>> environmentalists, they demand more forests to cut and smuggle out > >>> > >>> precious trees and construction of further concrete strctures with > >>> > >>> ulterior motives. Maintaining the sanctity of the shrine and the > >>> > >>> precious eco-system never appeared a priority before them. So far, > >>> > >>> the devaswam board was constituted once in five years by nomination > >>> > >>> of people with no administrative acumen at the behest of successive > >>> > >>> governments. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Rajan Gurukkal and his team at School of Social Sciences have > >>> > >>> prepared a long-term action plan for saving Sabarimala from the > >>> > >>> sequence of disasters in the offing. But the lobbies of corrupt and > >>> > >>> communal elements are not allowing the devaswam to look into them. > >>> > >>> Even the small step of Left Government in disbanding the existing > >>> > >>> devaswam committee is being interpreted as an attempt by atheists to > >>> > >>> interfere in Hindu religious matters. The move by left government to > >>> > >>> appoint experts in place of politicians at the board also facing > >>> > >>> opposition from Sangh Parivar organisations, who claim as custodians > >>> > >>> of Hindu places of worship. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> The board and its corrupt administrators were not able to get their > >>> > >>> hand on the forest so far due to stringent central acts and Supreme > >>> > >>> Court rulings. But even the outgoing members are repeating their old > >>> > >>> slogan of `no development in Sabarimala would be possible without > >>> > >>> deforestation.' Unless the authorities change their attitude from a > >>> > >>> revenue-centred approach to a pilgrim centred aprach, there is not > >>> > >>> much hope. But they still repeat that development (read > >>> > >>> deforestation) could not be stopped for the sake of a few birds and > >>> > >>> animals. ``The board had neither faith in environmental protection > >>> > >>> nor in religious sanctity,'' opines Rajan Gurukkal. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Decongestion of base town Pampa by increasing facilities at a > >>> > >>> relatively distant town of Nilakkal, demolition of unauthorised > >>> > >>> concrete structures at Sannidhanam and Pampa, cleaning of the river, > >>> > >>> better waste disposal facilities and provisions of basic facilities > >>> > >>> for pilgrims without affecting ecology are the urgent needs of > >>> > >>> Sabarimala. The tigers and elephants must be protected. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> If there is no mechanism to check the number of pilgrims, that would > >>> > >>> increase to two to three crores within years. Moderate elements > >>> among > >>> > >>> the Hindu community are favouring a statutory body for Sabarimala in > >>> > >>> line with Tirumala-Thirupathy Devasthanam and Amarnath temple. > >>> Such a > >>> > >>> body consisting of experts from different fields can change the > >>> > >>> course of priorities of the forest temple. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ----------- > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> 2. Amarnath Yatra: The Pilgrimage to Eco Disaster > >>> > >>> Gautam Navlakha > >>> > >>> http://www.kashmiraffairs.org/gautam_amarnath%20yatra.html > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Should one question the propriety of promoting pilgrimage in a > >>> > >>> ecologically fragile area or wink at it in the name of devotees > >>> right > >>> > >>> to free movement and worship? This question comes to mind when > >>> > >>> looking at Amarnath Yatra especially the phenomenal increase in the > >>> > >>> number of pilgrims. This increase is not of few hundred or few > >>> > >>> thousand but runs into hundreds of thousands. There has been a > >>> > >>> doubling of the period for pilgrimage from one month to two this > >>> year > >>> > >>> as well as forty times increase in number of pilgrims, from > >>> 12,000 in > >>> > >>> 1989 to 450,000 in 2005 (this year it is set to cross 500,000) are > >>> > >>> cause for concern. In fact the actual period is longer because a > >>> > >>> fortnight before the official yatra is reserved for army men and > >>> > >>> their families to visit the Amarnath cave through ecologically more > >>> > >>> vulnerable Baltal route. Moreover, in order to provide security for > >>> > >>> pilgrims who come out in large number, the paramilitary forces have > >>> > >>> to be deployed in large number. The current deployment will be in > >>> > >>> excess of 20,000 for the entire period. Their presence and stay > >>> > >>> cannot but affect the rise in pollution levels. Inclement weather > >>> too > >>> > >>> is an issue because rains in the plain means snow in the higher > >>> > >>> reaches. This results in crowding at the camps, straining services > >>> > >>> including disposal of waste. But worse things can happen as in 1996 > >>> > >>> when unexpected heavy snowfall resulted in death of 243 pilgrims and > >>> > >>> injuries to hundred more due to avalanche. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> The State Pollution Control Board (SPCB), recently in a 37 page > >>> > >>> report warns that generation of waste by pilgrims, absence of waste > >>> > >>> disposal sites, open dumping of garbage, air pollution, sewage > >>> > >>> generated by hotels, yatri camps and local residential areas makes > >>> > >>> its way into Lidder river. The SPCB warned that waste generated by > >>> > >>> pilgrims more than the local average and primarily contains > >>> plastics, > >>> > >>> polythene and leftover food packets all along the route. > >>> According to > >>> > >>> their calculation 55,000 kgs of plastic waste is generated every day > >>> > >>> during the pilgrimage. Besides, thousands of open toilets erected > >>> > >>> along the banks of Lidder river ensures that effluents enter the > >>> > >>> river. Thousands of vehicles ply up and down the mountains around > >>> > >>> Pahalgam all the way up to Chandanwari spewing carbon monoxide. The > >>> > >>> Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB), which came into existence on > >>> > >>> February 21, 2001, has been dismissive of such claims. They assert > >>> > >>> that 230 pre-fabricated toilets being raised in Nunwan base camp and > >>> > >>> human waste disposal off in leach pits with micro-organism > >>> technology > >>> > >>> using Bokaslin powder and other chemicals would take care of the > >>> > >>> problem. However, the issue is more than the supposedly effective > >>> > >>> modern methods to manage waste. The sheer presence of large mass of > >>> > >>> people is a cause for concern. Department of Science and technology > >>> > >>> through its principal investigator on glaciology has argued that > >>> "the > >>> > >>> ecology, the environment and health of the glacier can be under > >>> > >>> severe threat in case the Baltal route to the Holy Cave was > >>> > >>> frequented by thousands of pilgrims". And pointed out that > >>> "depletion > >>> > >>> and degradation (of glaciers) are the result of human breath, refuse > >>> > >>> and land erosion". (The Tribune July 5, 2005). > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> It is disconcerting to note that opening of Baltal route for > >>> pilgrims > >>> > >>> on foot and those using helicopters has crossed several thousand > >>> > >>> every day. Apart from the Department of Science and Technology of > >>> J&K > >>> > >>> government even the Nitish Sengupta committee, which was constituted > >>> > >>> to look into the deaths of 243 pilgrims in 1996 due to the > >>> snowstorm, > >>> > >>> had recommended that number of yatris be restricted to 5000 per day > >>> > >>> for a period of one month and the total number of pilgrims be capped > >>> > >>> at1.5 lakhs. According to them Baltal route should allow 1500 > >>> > >>> pilgrims and Pahalgam 3500 per day. However, the General JR > >>> Mukherjee > >>> > >>> committee, which looked into the cause of death of 35 people, due to > >>> > >>> cross fire, during the 2000 yatra, focussed on security arrangement > >>> > >>> and wanted the duration of the yatra to increase as security > >>> scenario > >>> > >>> improved. But neither report looked at the environmental impact of > >>> > >>> the yatra. Thus when the SASB invokes the recommendations of the two > >>> > >>> committees what it does is to use it selectively and link the number > >>> > >>> of pilgrims to the issue of managing security for them. In this > >>> sense > >>> > >>> they underplay the question whether the eco-system can bear heavy > >>> > >>> influx of pilgrims. This emphasis on encouraging larger number of > >>> > >>> pilgrims shows its impact on the environment in unexpected ways. > >>> Such > >>> > >>> as the SASB contemplating "air conditioning" to preserve the shiva > >>> > >>> lingam from melting. The recent controversy over the pilgrims > >>> > >>> alleging that the SASB has been constructing the "snow lingam" is > >>> now > >>> > >>> being passed off as due to change in the course of the water > >>> channels > >>> > >>> after last year's earthquake and global warming. Without ruling this > >>> > >>> out human contribution to this phenomenon cannot be ignored when > >>> > >>> glaciers are rapidly receding. As a matter of fact yatra was never > >>> > >>> undertaken in June precisely because formation of shiva lingam does > >>> > >>> not always take place then. Incidentally the local people speak of > >>> > >>> "human" intervention in restoring what is a natural phenomenon, as > >>> > >>> something that has happened in the past too. This apart large number > >>> > >>> of pilgrims means that going gets tough as one draws close to the > >>> > >>> cave with traffic jam being the order of the day. At times pilgrims > >>> > >>> have to wait for hours for their turn. Increase in dust in > >>> atmosphere > >>> > >>> too is caused by crowds of people as well as helicopter service. The > >>> > >>> dust raised is visible from long distance away. All this also means > >>> > >>> that individual pilgrims, that is other than VIPs, are disallowed > >>> > >>> from spending more than seconds inside the cave. Above all carbon > >>> > >>> dioxide levels shoot up warming the area all around. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> It cannot be that the SASB is unaware of the environmental concerns. > >>> > >>> If it receives short shrift it is because the yatra has come to > >>> > >>> symbolise Indian government's determination to promote its claim in > >>> > >>> J&K. That pilgrimage is being heralded as victory against a movement > >>> > >>> demanding azadi from India is available in the news portal of Indian > >>> > >>> government, Press Information Bureau. It says that "yearning for > >>> > >>> moksha (salvation) can move the devotees to the challenging heights > >>> > >>> of Kashmir and will be a fitting gesture of solidarity with our > >>> > >>> valiant soldiers who have been fighting the enemy to defend our > >>> > >>> borders". (pib.nic.in/feature/feo799/f1507992.html). Thus what is > >>> > >>> otherwise merely a religious pilgrimage of the Hindus has been > >>> > >>> elevated to represent a patriotic enterprise. Besides, the SASB is > >>> > >>> headed by the Governor and his principal secretary is the CEO of the > >>> > >>> SASB. Thus the Government of India is clearly in charge of > >>> organising > >>> > >>> the yatra. And it is the SASB which has been pushing for larger and > >>> > >>> larger numbers of pilgrims and challenging the right of the state > >>> > >>> government from interfering in anyway with the schedule announced by > >>> > >>> the SASB. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> It is true that not everyone who goes to Amarnath accepts this > >>> > >>> association of religion with patriotism. But the fact of the matter > >>> > >>> is that official perception of pilgrimage as patriotic duty has > >>> > >>> allowed the communal fascist elements to join in organising their > >>> > >>> supporters. Little wonder that frequency of conflict between section > >>> > >>> of such 'pilgrims' and local population due to their obnoxious > >>> > >>> behaviour has shown an increase. What is equally disconcerting is > >>> > >>> that the SASB presided over by the Governor has also been engaged in > >>> > >>> controversial transactions. The CEO of SASB is the principal > >>> > >>> secretary to the Governor. Present CEO's wife, in her capacity of > >>> > >>> Principal secretary forest department granted permission to SASB on > >>> > >>> May 29, 2005 to use forest land. But this provision was not in > >>> > >>> accordance with the provision of J&K Forest Conservation Act 1997 > >>> > >>> and, therefore, the state government withdrew the order. However, > >>> > >>> thanks to a stay order by a division bench of the J&K High Court the > >>> > >>> withdrawal of permission to occupy forest land, was suspended. Any > >>> > >>> visitor to Pahalgam can observe how this forest land is being > >>> cleared > >>> > >>> to setup camps for the yatris. In fact now the SASB has asked the > >>> > >>> state government to give them land in the radius of 5kms of the > >>> cave. > >>> > >>> This arouses local passions precisely because Indian security forces > >>> > >>> and other entities have transferred large tracts of land to house > >>> > >>> camps for security force personnel, or for central projects, as well > >>> > >>> as for schools which are run by army among others. Even a pro-Indian > >>> > >>> National Conference party has protested such transfers of land since > >>> > >>> 1989. Not very far from the camp for the pilgrims in Pahalgam, in > >>> > >>> Lidru (opposite Kulan village) what locals describe as one of the > >>> > >>> finest meadows, spread over 550 kanals (one kanal=one eighth of > >>> acre) > >>> > >>> in area, has been given to the army to run a school! Local > >>> population > >>> > >>> feels helpless at being unable to stop this. Therefore, when SASB > >>> > >>> wants large tract of land transferred to it under the claim of > >>> > >>> providing accommodation for lakhs of pilgrims it must be weighed > >>> > >>> against this local concern. Were the numbers of pilgrims to be > >>> > >>> brought down the pressing need for transferring large areas to SASB > >>> > >>> or for providing carpet security and thus deployment of force, > >>> can be > >>> > >>> brought down. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> This apart the SASB has also been involved in other controversial > >>> > >>> acts. One such was the recent attempt by the SASB to bring down the > >>> > >>> involvement of local people in the yatra. When on June 5, 2006 the > >>> > >>> local pro-India Peoples' Democratic Party (PDP) claimed that SASB > >>> was > >>> > >>> ignoring livelihood of locals, the SASB countered by claiming that > >>> > >>> such criticism would generate controversy and thus "jeopardise" > >>> > >>> tourism in Kashmir. Quite apart from the fact that promotion of > >>> > >>> pilgrimage for commerce flies in the face of proclaimed concern for > >>> > >>> people's faith PDP pointed out that if local porters and ponywallahs > >>> > >>> can strike work at Vaishnodevi Shrine against the (mis)management of > >>> > >>> the Shri Vaishnodevi Shrine Board (SVDSB) and seek support from > >>> local > >>> > >>> Congress leaders then what is wrong if local people from Pahalgam > >>> and > >>> > >>> Kangan areas seek their help to protest against the practises of > >>> SASB > >>> > >>> which discriminate against them. In fact the Pithoo Workers Union at > >>> > >>> Katra have protested the suspension of six of their leaders, alleged > >>> > >>> manhandling by SVDSB officials and demanded recall of its additional > >>> > >>> CEO. Neither the Governor as head of SVDSB nor the Board issued any > >>> > >>> statement chastising the Congress party! > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Arguably, when yatra was halted between 1991-96 due to threat of > >>> > >>> section of the militants it played into the hands of the extreme > >>> > >>> right wing elements in Indian society who have since then become an > >>> > >>> integral part of mobilising large numbers of pilgrims. Thus a > >>> form of > >>> > >>> competitive communalism came into play. Thus when section of the > >>> > >>> militants represented earlier by Harkatul Ansar and now Lashkar-e- > >>> > >>> Taiyyaba or Jaish-e-Mohammed threaten to disrupt the pilgrimage it > >>> > >>> only gets the backs up of the devout Hindus opens them to vitriol of > >>> > >>> the rabidly anti-Muslim Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), Shiv Sena etc. > >>> > >>> and accentuates the communal divide. However, it is equally > >>> important > >>> > >>> to note the actual fact that more people have died in yatra due to > >>> > >>> inclement weather and cross fire than at the hands of the militants. > >>> > >>> Besides, the main indigenous militant organisation Hizbul Mujahideen > >>> > >>> has always supported the yatra and has consistently demonstrated its > >>> > >>> opposition towards those who have tried to disrupt the yatra. > >>> > >>> Moreover, prior to constituting SASB the state government, local > >>> > >>> people and social activists provided aid and assistance to the > >>> > >>> pilgrims. However, threat of environmental damage has become a > >>> matter > >>> > >>> of utmost concern because the central government under the cover of > >>> > >>> SASB remains unrelenting in its pursuit of ever larger numbers to > >>> > >>> come for pilgrimage. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> In a way the Amarnath yatra illustrates the way in which the Indian > >>> > >>> government injects communalism in our body politic. And also > >>> > >>> represents how secularism in India has been perverted to mean state > >>> > >>> patronage of religion/s. This patronage is not equitably distributed > >>> > >>> since Hindus outnumber others by more than eight times. Which is to > >>> > >>> say that between un-equals equality ends up promoting Hindu > >>> religious > >>> > >>> practises. In Amarnath yatra, in fact, the India government even > >>> > >>> discarded its pretended neutrality by publicising the yatra as a > >>> > >>> patriotic duty! Consequently, the likelihood of Amarnath pilgrimage > >>> > >>> getting mired in controversy, over environmental damage and > >>> > >>> eventually feeding into further alienation of people because they > >>> can > >>> > >>> do little to save damage to their lived environment, has increased. > >>> > >>> Trouble is the Indian government cares little for people and prefers > >>> > >>> to pander to the extreme rightwing by projecting the yatra as a > >>> > >>> patriotic enterprise to boost the morale of the Indian paramilitary > >>> > >>> forces. The very same force which the local population regards as > >>> > >>> symbol of their oppression. Thus a bigger mess is in the making > >>> right > >>> > >>> before our own eyes. > >>> > >>> --------------- > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >>> > >>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS > >>> > >>> Raqs Media Collective > >>> > >>> shuddha at sarai.net > >>> > >>> www.sarai.net > >>> > >>> www.raqsmediacollective.net > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> > > ... > > > > [Message clipped] > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> __________________________________________________________ Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html From kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 2 14:31:47 2008 From: kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk (Kashmir Affairs) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 09:01:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Solving Amarnath: New Hope in Kashmir In-Reply-To: <632009.16867.qm@web27803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <252538.76398.qm@web27804.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Solving Amarnath: A New Hope in Kashmir Murtaza Shibli [www.kashmiraffairs.org] The bold decision of the Congress government led by Ghulam Nabi Azad in Srinagar must be commended. By revoking the land order to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB) that was illegal at the first place, Azad has not only shown great courage and decision making skills to deal with a crisis that was spiralling out of control, a la 1990, but also taken both the People’s Democratic Party (PDP) and the fledgling separatist movement of the Hurriyat Conference off the guard, who were using the land issue to manipulate public mind. Though the order came late; it has, however, not only diffused the crisis, but also shown for the first time in recent decades, that a crisis in Kashmir could be solved through bold and timely political action. It also demonstrates to the Kashmiris that by resorting to non-violent action, there is a room for manoeuvre and things can be changed through peaceful means. Baring few incidents of stone pelting and burning of tyres, the massive demonstrations were totally peaceful, without any involvement of the militant groups, and without any communal flavour despite propaganda by various quarters including mainstream Indian media. Sadly, the state response was not that peaceful; five innocent lives were lost during the ten day demonstrations. However, by Kashmiri standards, it could be classified as measured and therefore a change from previous years, when the paramilitary forces would kill dozens on small or no provocations. Incidentally, this is first such massive crisis in the last two decades that has been solved peacefully and decisively, in public favour, taking everyone by surprise.   Another very positive aspect that emerged from this stand-off is that the Pakistani government maintained a studied silence on the issue, thus not only keeping the spirit of reconciliation between the two countries alive, but also showing maturity by not succumbing to the pressure from the traditional hawkish elements within the establishment when the temptation was real.  This also prevented any wild claims within the Indian government or Hindu militants to blame Pakistan for a role in the crisis. Though, the Pakistani silence irritated the United Jihad Council chief Syed Salahudin, who called it as ‘surprising’, it was in the right spirit of peace that the two countries have embarked upon. Successful dealing of the crisis demonstrated that if the right and positive decisions are taken, keeping in view the aspirations of the Kashmiri people, it is possible to deal with crises without involving Pakistan. It also bought another stark point to the fore – that Pakistan is not always involved in all the crisis in Kashmir; a paranoia that has swept across the Indian establishment and offers an alibi to the politicians and security establishment for their systemic or judgemental failures or biases.   The peaceful outcome also shows that if the promises and commitments are followed in the right spirit, there is a room for massive improvement in the situation without employing more than half a million troops and two dozen secret agencies.  If the promises like ‘zero tolerance for human rights violations’ made by the Prime Minister Manmohan Singh more than two years ago would have been observed, the Kashmiri population would not have felt so distanced or disconnected from the peace process that is now running in the fifth year. In addition, the economic development of the Kashmir valley suffers massively either due to the massive presence of the Army and paramilitary forces or the unspent millions that lye wasted in the government coffers mainly due to the political rivalry between the coalition partners – People’s Democratic Party (PDP) and Congress; the tussle added vitriol to fire caused by the current crisis, as the PDP tried to capitalise on it despite being an equal partner in ‘crime’.   In a classic act of political opportunism, the PDP that was part of the cabinet decision that allowed the illegal transfer of land to the SASB, decided to withdraw the support and blame its coalition partner Congress for the whole issue. Only days ago, Kashmir’s Forest Minister, Qazi Mohammad Afzal, who belongs to the PDP openly boasted about his role in effecting the land transfer. But when the public reaction grew, the PDP not only withdrew support, but also issued public statements that sounded like racial epithets designed to inflame the public opinion and hence provoke and enlarge the constituency of protests and violence.   The use of religion for political ends is not new in south Asia. Mufti Mohammad Sayeed, the patron of PDP, has previously also been accused of creating communal tensions for his electoral gains. In 1986, during his time as Congress chief of Jammu and Kashmir, Mufti Sayeed allegedly engineered communal riots against the Kashmiri Pandits in Anantnag district in which half a dozen temples and homes of Hindus were damaged. This afforded Congress a plausible reason to withdraw support from fledgling Ghulam Mohammad Shah government, which was manufactured through defections from the National Conference at the first place courtesy of Mufti Sayeed. Later, in 1990, when the massive public demonstrations engulfed the Kashmir Valley, Mufti, as the Home Minister in the VP Singh government deliberately sent Jagmohan as governor making it difficult for Farooq Abdullah government to function. Farooq resigned and Jagmohan got a free ride employing state terror that gave rise to massive militancy – a phenomenon that still costs lives in Kashmir. Perhaps Mufti Sayeed was wishing to witness the repeat of 1990 to feed his insatiable desire for power, but the timely action by the Azad government diffused the situation successfully, leaving him lost and vulnerable.   Buoyed by the success and free from the fetters of PDP conditionality, the Azad government has a huge task ahead. The winter capital of the state, Jammu, has been virtually taken over by the Hindu militant groups who have been attacking the government buildings, offices of the political parties and threatening economic blockade of the Kashmiri Valley. The government should not only deal with situation wisely, but also make sure that no anti-Kashmiri rhetoric or action is allowed that will feed into the agenda of extremist vision of a civilisational clash. It is hoped that all the political parties will discard electoral opportunism and mount joint efforts to initiate serious peace efforts. The successful handling of Kashmir’s current crisis offers a hope and a chance for the Congress government at the Centre to build on this bold decision and work towards a final and durable solution of the problem.   The writer is a security analyst based in London. He is also editor of quarterly journal Kashmir Affairs and webportal www.kashmiraffairs.org __________________________________________________________ Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Wed Jul 2 14:33:23 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 14:03:23 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Open letter to the prime minister of India to scrapthe Indo US nuclear Deal In-Reply-To: <32144e990807010640s18d1927eibc2baf16edca12e8@mail.gmail.com> References: <32144e990807010640s18d1927eibc2baf16edca12e8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Partha, It is sincerly hoped that you have read the statement by the nuclear scientists who have served India for years on the issue of this N-deal, where in they clearly maintain that this deal amounts to all commercial purchases being controlled by washington and India would have to be at the mercy of washington even after the NSG agrees to supply uranium, which exactly is objectionable. Also, the party which ruled the nation forfifty years has all the deals with kickbacks to the first family which histroy has recorded well, be it PL 480 funds during the nehru and his mixed economy, or Indira and her poisoned predecessor Shastriji, and russian deals or the latter version of mr. Clean with Bofors who later had to pay the price but still his uncle Q got the freezed funds thanks to his queen. Moot point is nuclear energy is costliest and to set up plants we need to spend billions for long period of 25 years with lot many contracts and lots more kickbacks, hence the Pm is keen for this deal with US, being Mr. Honest, he is out there to prove how dishonest he is to the national interest with his personal loyalty to the first family.! Regards. From: Partha Dasgupta Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008 7:11 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Open letter to the prime minister of India to scrapthe Indo US nuclear Deal To: Asit asitreds Cc: Sarai Reader List > Hi Asit, > > Just for a moment, lets not wear the blinkers of "US Imperialism" and > look at what the scenario is and what the options are: > > 1. India has already started the Nuclear Race with Pakistan a > long time back, > and with the distrust between the nations, would be surprised if > they'd stop > just because the current treaty is not signed. So what is this > talk about India > being Nuclear Free? > > 2. How does signing make India lose it's "hard earned > sovereignty"? On one hand > you talk of a nuclear race and on the other do not wish to sign > on the dotted line > to use nuclear bye products for peaceful purposes! > > 3. We're already chock a block on Coal and other power creators. With > the water based > ones, the displacement will be high (not counting the arguments > with Pakistan & Bangladesh) > and, of course, the recent posts on this list about the water > in Kashmir. > > 4. What sustainable method of power generation do you have in > mind - > unless your contention > is that India should live without power and that power is only > for cities. Sounds highly illogical > to me. > > In fact the whole message comes across as " they're the US, therefore > everything they do is evil" which is something I will not accept > as a > reason. Both Russia and China have Nuclear capability for both power > and warfare, yet because it is the US that has offered it, the treaty > has become a tool of "US Imperialism". > > Doesn't wash. > > Rgds, Partha > .................... > > On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 5:28 PM, Asit asitreds > wrote: > > Dear Friends > > > > Please see the following letter to the prime > minister> to scrap the Indo-US nuclear deal, if you agree with the > political content > > please endorse the letter.And if possible please forward it to > others.> > > > > > > With Regards > > > > Asit > > > > > > > > AN OPEN LETTER TO THE PRIME MINSTER OF INDIA TO SCRAP THE INDO > US NUCLEAR > > DEAL > > > > > > > > To > > > > Shri Manmohan Singh > > > > Prime Minister > > > > > > > > Dear Prime Minister, > > > > > > > > We the undersigned demand scrapping of the Indo-US Nuclear Deal with > > immediate effect. The content of the Deal which is currently being > > negotiated between India and the US was the first laid out in > the joint > > statement issued by the Prime Minister and the US President on > July 18, 2005 > > from Washington DC and further reiterated on March 2, 2006 in > another joint > > statement by them issued from New Delhi. The signing of the > Henry Hyde Act > > on December 18, 2006 is logical interference of the content of > the Act > > legally making India a junior ally of the US Imperialism > confiscating> and trunacating > > our hard earned sovereignty. > > > > > > > > We therefore demand that the Indo-US Nuclear Deal be scrapped > given up with > > immediate effect and the ongoing talks between IAEA should be > called off > > immediately. > > > > > > > > The Indo-US Nuclear Deal is patently anti-people, will make > India a > > strategic ally of American Imperialism in South Asia to impose > its hegemony > > over Asia. The Deal also negates the concrete achievements > gained by the > > International and national peace movements for disarmament and > Nuclear-free > > World. After the example of the ruthless genocide, devastation and > > occupation of Iraq before us, we feel that the Indo-US Nuclear > Deal will > > become an instrument for ruthlessly imposing the neo-liberal > economic agenda > > and pliant regimes over the impoverished people of the Third > World and > > further tightening the hold through the Indo-US Nuclear Deal, US > Imperialism> will have a firm grip over the governments of the > independent> nation-states of India and Asia. This makes a mockery > of the cherished > > values of equal and democratic world order and the aspirations > of the > > national liberation struggles including the whole spirit of > decolonization.> > > > > > > The Indo-US Nuclear Deal is an outrageous instrument of > recolonization of > > India and Third World. The Deal, as and when comes through will, > grievously> undermine the current global; regime of nuclear non- > proliferation, as it is > > meant to make an unique exception in case of India, in gross > violation of > > underlying principles of the International peace, workers, > environment and > > women's movements. > > > > > > > > The fact that Pakistan has been brusquely refused a similar deal > by the US > > in spite of persistent clamouring, and Iran is being > demonstratively coerced > > to desist from developing its own nuclear power production > allowed and > > encouraged under article IV of the NPT which further brings out > graphically> the abominable discriminatory nature of the Deal. The > deal is likely to > > trigger a stepped up vertical and horizontal proliferations all > over Asia. > > This goes against our commitment of Nuclear-free Asia and World. > by enabling > > India to import fuel natural or enriched Uranium, from abroad > the 'Deal' > > would make it possible for India to use the indigenously > produced Uranium > > exclusively for bomb making. This possible escalation in its fissile > > material production capacity, in all likelihood, it will push > Pakistan> further to nuclearise even at great cost, and thereby > aggravate tensions and > > accelerate the arms race in the region with horrifying > consequences. The > > arms race will divert resources of the country away from > development so > > desperately required by the toiling masses to overcome their current > > poverty. > > > > > > > > We totally reject the proposition that it will enhance India's > energy> security and, we categorically assert that nuclear power > is prohibitively > > costly., therefore the Deal will distort India's energy options > by diverting > > resource guzzling, and the intrinsically hazardous and potentially > > catastrophic, nuclear power at the cost of eco-friendly and many > times> financially cheaper renewable sources of energy. > > > > > > > > With the human development index of India and the Third World > miserably low, > > we demand that instead of spending irrationally on nuclear power, > > expenditures on in health, education, food security, rural and urban > > employment be enhanced. > > > > We want to remind you that India as the leader of the Non- > Aligned Movement > > and as vocal participant in various international forums > including the UN, > > has always committed itself for a Nuclear-free World and > abolition of the > > existing nuclear weapons. In the spirit of the above we want the > Government> of India to ban the entry of nuclear powered sub > marines of the US and other > > major NATO countries. After six decades after of the Hiroshima > and Nagasaki > > nuclear tragedies, we demand that immediate steps to be taken > for a > > Nuclear-free Asia and the world. > > > > > > > > The above Indo-US Nuclear Deal will further reinforce the > unequal strategic > > relationship between the US and thereby would add momentum to > the US > > imperialistic project for unfettered global dominance .We reject any > > ambitions of the Indian ruling classes to act as the a Big > Brother in South > > Asia or to emerge as a global power basking in the reflected > glory of global > > headman and goon. This will not only undermine India's position > as a > > founding and leading member of the Non- Aligned Movement but > will seriously > > undermine prestige of NAM as a whole; > > > > of meekly surrendering to the US Imperialism defying the democratic > > aspirations of the toiling masses of the Third World for a > Nuclear-free, > > just and livable world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vijay Pratap(Convener Lokayan) > > > > > > > > Babu Lal Sharma (Convenor, Global Gandhi Forum) > > > > > > > > Rakesh Bhatt (Coordinator, SADED/CSDS) > > > > > > > > Kiran Shaheen(Media and Social Activist) > > > > > > > > Chandrika(Editor-Dakhal Duniya web magazine) > > > > > > > > Prakash Kumar Ray (Film maker and Research Scholar/Film > Studies/School of > > art & Aesthetic JNU) > > > > > > > > Jeet Bhattacharya (Research Scholar, Film Studies, School of art > & Aesthetic > > JNU) > > > > > > > > Rishika Mehershi (Research Scholar, Performing Arts, School of > art & > > Aesthetic JNU) > > > > > > > > Asit (Researcher and Social Activist) > > > > > > > > Kumar Sameer(Social Activist) > > > > > > > > Peeyush Pant ( Editor-Lok Samvad) > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Wed Jul 2 14:38:28 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 14:08:28 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue In-Reply-To: <486A2C87.8080008@gmail.com> References: <98f331e00806301826g1af66e90pacaacf4724a45a50@mail.gmail.com> <486A2C87.8080008@gmail.com> Message-ID: Come on Tapas, don't tell us that there are no scams in west Bengal, only difference is that the "journalist" know well if they cover scams they are short lived to tell it with cadres having thier say.! Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tapas Ray Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008 6:40 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue To: reader-list at sarai.net > J&K should probably follow West Bengal's example, where a minister > is > the chairman of the board. Anybody remember the wakf scam? The > more > things change, the more they remain the same ... from 2002 to 2006 > ... > see the two clippings below. > > Tapas > > ------------------------ > http://health.rediff.com/news/2002/jul/05wakf.htm > > July 05, 2002 > > Wakf Board property scam has Left Front squirming > > Amin Babu Ahmed in Kolkata > > The G R Bhattacharya Commission report, which unveiled a scam in > Wakf > property, has caught the ruling Left Front government in West > Bengal off > guard. > > After five years of thorough research and examination of > witnesses, the > commission concluded that there were major irregularities in the > Wakf > Board during the regime of the Left Front. > > The report says that Wakf properties in the state, worth millions > of > rupees, were given out on lease or rent to businessmen at meagre > rates. > .... > > The report, made public this week six months after it was placed > in the > assembly, has specifically named former chairman of the Wakf Board > Hamimul Huda as an accused. > > Another former chairman of the board is also named, but no other > person > has been specifically accused of wrongdoing. > > Incidentally, a few days before the report was tabled in the > assembly, > Huda was arrested on charges of questionable deals pertaining to > Wakf > property and this has found mention in Minorities Development > Minister > Mohammad Salim's Action Taken Report (in response to the findings > of the > G R Bhattacharya Commission's findings). > > Since there are no proper records of the board's properties, it is > difficult to gauge the extent of the scam, Salim said. > > The opposition alleges that the scam involves approximately Rs 10 > billion (Rs 1000 crore). > > "How can they be so specific when the survey is still incomplete," > asks > Salim ... > --------------------- > > http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=207459 > > October 30, 2006 > > Kolkata, October 30: The Waqf Board today appointed Abdus Sattar, > state > minister for minority development and madrasa education, as its > new > chairman. Sattar will be replacing Hannan Mollah, CPI-M MP, who > remained > in the post for two consecutive terms since 2000. > > According to sources in the department, Mollah was removed > following > allegations of corruption against him. > > Advertisement > Sattar, however, refuted such allegations and said ... > ------------------------- > > > It is to be noted that the Governor heads the Hindu shrine boards > > and the chief minister heads the Muslim Wakfs. The government > must get out > > of this kind of control and must restrict itself to provide the > needed> support to public who visit shrines, temples, mosques and > other kinds of > > religious places and festivals/fairs. There must be a rethinking > on the tax > > benefits extended to the religious bodies earning crores and > crores of > > rupees. Such changes in policies should be applied to all over > the country, > > not only in the J & K. > > > Regards, > > > > Prakash > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From rashneek at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 16:06:57 2008 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 16:06:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Solving Amarnath: New Hope in Kashmir In-Reply-To: <252538.76398.qm@web27804.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <632009.16867.qm@web27803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <252538.76398.qm@web27804.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <13df7c120807020336j2e65d469x543cffd156174830@mail.gmail.com> The winter capital of the state, Jammu, has been virtually taken over by the Hindu militant groups who have been attacking the government buildings, offices of the political parties and threatening economic blockade of the Kashmiri Valley. ** *Buth hum ko kahen kaafir* *Allah ki marrzi hai* ** Rashneek Kher On 7/2/08, Kashmir Affairs wrote: > > > > > > Solving > Amarnath: A New Hope in Kashmir > > > Murtaza > Shibli > > > [www.kashmiraffairs.org] > > > > The bold decision of the Congress government > led by Ghulam Nabi Azad in Srinagar must be commended. By revoking the land > order to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB) that was illegal at the > first > place, Azad has not only shown great courage and decision making skills to > deal > with a crisis that was spiralling out of control, a la 1990, but also taken > both the People's Democratic Party (PDP) and the fledgling separatist > movement of > the Hurriyat Conference off the guard, who were using the land issue to > manipulate public mind. Though the order came late; it has, however, not > only > diffused the crisis, but also shown for the first time in recent decades, > that a > crisis in Kashmir could be solved through bold and timely political action. > It > also demonstrates to the Kashmiris that by resorting to non-violent action, > there is a room for manoeuvre and things can be changed through peaceful > means. > Baring few incidents of stone pelting and burning of tyres, the massive > demonstrations were totally peaceful, without any involvement of the > militant > groups, and without any communal flavour despite propaganda by various > quarters > including mainstream Indian media. Sadly, the state response was not that > peaceful; > five innocent lives were lost during the ten day demonstrations. However, > by > Kashmiri standards, it could be classified as measured and therefore a > change > from previous years, when the paramilitary forces would kill dozens on > small or > no provocations. Incidentally, this is first such massive crisis in the > last > two decades that has been solved peacefully and decisively, in public > favour, taking > everyone by surprise. > > > > > > Another very positive aspect that emerged > from this stand-off is that the Pakistani government maintained a studied > silence on the issue, thus not only keeping the spirit of reconciliation > between the two countries alive, but also showing maturity by not > succumbing to > the pressure from the traditional hawkish elements within the establishment > when > the temptation was real. This also > prevented any wild claims within the Indian government or Hindu militants > to > blame Pakistan for a role in the crisis. Though, the Pakistani silence > irritated the United Jihad Council chief Syed Salahudin, who called it as > 'surprising', > it was in the right spirit of peace that the two countries have embarked > upon. > Successful dealing of the crisis demonstrated that if the right and > positive > decisions are taken, keeping in view the aspirations of the Kashmiri > people, it > is possible to deal with crises without involving Pakistan. It also bought > another stark point to the fore – that Pakistan is not always involved in > all > the crisis in Kashmir; a paranoia that has swept across the Indian > establishment and offers an alibi to the politicians and security > establishment > for their systemic or judgemental failures or biases. > > > > > > The peaceful outcome also shows that if the > promises and commitments are followed in the right spirit, there is a room > for > massive improvement in the situation without employing more than half a > million > troops and two dozen secret agencies. If > the promises like 'zero tolerance for human rights violations' made by the > Prime Minister Manmohan Singh more than two years ago would have been > observed, > the Kashmiri population would not have felt so distanced or disconnected > from > the peace process that is now running in the fifth year. In addition, the > economic > development of the Kashmir valley suffers massively either due to the > massive > presence of the Army and paramilitary forces or the unspent millions that > lye > wasted in the government coffers mainly due to the political rivalry > between > the coalition partners – People's Democratic Party (PDP) and Congress; the > tussle added vitriol to fire caused by the current crisis, as the PDP tried > to > capitalise on it despite being an equal partner in 'crime'. > > > > > > In a classic act of political opportunism, the > PDP that was part of the cabinet decision that allowed the illegal transfer > of > land to the SASB, decided to withdraw the support and blame its coalition > partner Congress for the whole issue. Only days ago, Kashmir's Forest > Minister, > Qazi Mohammad Afzal, who belongs to the PDP openly boasted about his role > in > effecting the land transfer. But when the public reaction grew, the PDP not > only withdrew support, but also issued public statements that sounded like > racial epithets designed to inflame the public opinion and hence provoke > and enlarge > the constituency of protests and violence. > > > > > > The use of religion for political ends is not > new in south Asia. Mufti Mohammad Sayeed, the patron of PDP, has previously > also > been accused of creating communal tensions for his electoral gains. In > 1986, > during his time as Congress chief of Jammu and Kashmir, Mufti Sayeed > allegedly engineered > communal riots against the Kashmiri Pandits in Anantnag district in which > half > a dozen temples and homes of Hindus were damaged. This afforded Congress a > plausible reason to withdraw support from fledgling Ghulam Mohammad Shah > government, > which was manufactured through defections from the National Conference at > the > first place courtesy of Mufti Sayeed. Later, in 1990, when the massive > public demonstrations > engulfed the Kashmir Valley, Mufti, as the Home Minister in the VP Singh > government > deliberately sent Jagmohan as governor making it difficult for Farooq > Abdullah > government to function. Farooq resigned and Jagmohan got a free ride > employing state > terror that gave rise to massive militancy – a phenomenon that still costs > lives in Kashmir. Perhaps Mufti Sayeed was wishing to witness the repeat of > 1990 to feed his insatiable desire for power, but the timely action by the > Azad > government diffused the situation successfully, leaving him lost and > vulnerable. > > > > > > > Buoyed by the success and free from the > fetters of PDP conditionality, the Azad government has a huge task ahead. > The > winter capital of the state, Jammu, has been virtually taken over by the > Hindu militant > groups who have been attacking the government buildings, offices of the > political parties and threatening economic blockade of the Kashmiri Valley. > The > government should not only deal with situation wisely, but also make sure > that > no anti-Kashmiri rhetoric or action is allowed that will feed into the > agenda > of extremist vision of a civilisational clash. It is hoped that all the > political > parties will discard electoral opportunism and mount joint efforts to > initiate > serious peace efforts. The successful handling of Kashmir's current crisis > offers a hope and a chance for the Congress government at the Centre to > build > on this bold decision and work towards a final and durable solution of the > problem. > > > > > > The writer is a security analyst based > in London. He is also editor of quarterly journal Kashmir Affairs and > webportal www.kashmiraffairs.org > > > __________________________________________________________ > Not happy with your email address?. > Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now > at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Rashneek Kher Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 16:48:33 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 16:48:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Solving Amarnath: New Hope in Kashmir In-Reply-To: <252538.76398.qm@web27804.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <632009.16867.qm@web27803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <252538.76398.qm@web27804.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70807020418o737c232l42c0b1b1e39de479@mail.gmail.com> now, the real threat is BJP which is trying its best to manufacture Ayodhya like crises for a fradulent return to power On 7/2/08, Kashmir Affairs wrote: > > > > > Solving > Amarnath: A New Hope in Kashmir > > > Murtaza > Shibli > > > [www.kashmiraffairs.org] > > > > The bold decision of the Congress government > led by Ghulam Nabi Azad in Srinagar must be commended. By revoking the land > order to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB) that was illegal at the first > place, Azad has not only shown great courage and decision making skills to deal > with a crisis that was spiralling out of control, a la 1990, but also taken > both the People's Democratic Party (PDP) and the fledgling separatist movement of > the Hurriyat Conference off the guard, who were using the land issue to > manipulate public mind. Though the order came late; it has, however, not only > diffused the crisis, but also shown for the first time in recent decades, that a > crisis in Kashmir could be solved through bold and timely political action. It > also demonstrates to the Kashmiris that by resorting to non-violent action, > there is a room for manoeuvre and things can be changed through peaceful means. > Baring few incidents of stone pelting and burning of tyres, the massive > demonstrations were totally peaceful, without any involvement of the militant > groups, and without any communal flavour despite propaganda by various quarters > including mainstream Indian media. Sadly, the state response was not that peaceful; > five innocent lives were lost during the ten day demonstrations. However, by > Kashmiri standards, it could be classified as measured and therefore a change > from previous years, when the paramilitary forces would kill dozens on small or > no provocations. Incidentally, this is first such massive crisis in the last > two decades that has been solved peacefully and decisively, in public favour, taking > everyone by surprise. > > > > > > Another very positive aspect that emerged > from this stand-off is that the Pakistani government maintained a studied > silence on the issue, thus not only keeping the spirit of reconciliation > between the two countries alive, but also showing maturity by not succumbing to > the pressure from the traditional hawkish elements within the establishment when > the temptation was real. This also > prevented any wild claims within the Indian government or Hindu militants to > blame Pakistan for a role in the crisis. Though, the Pakistani silence > irritated the United Jihad Council chief Syed Salahudin, who called it as 'surprising', > it was in the right spirit of peace that the two countries have embarked upon. > Successful dealing of the crisis demonstrated that if the right and positive > decisions are taken, keeping in view the aspirations of the Kashmiri people, it > is possible to deal with crises without involving Pakistan. It also bought > another stark point to the fore – that Pakistan is not always involved in all > the crisis in Kashmir; a paranoia that has swept across the Indian > establishment and offers an alibi to the politicians and security establishment > for their systemic or judgemental failures or biases. > > > > > > The peaceful outcome also shows that if the > promises and commitments are followed in the right spirit, there is a room for > massive improvement in the situation without employing more than half a million > troops and two dozen secret agencies. If > the promises like 'zero tolerance for human rights violations' made by the > Prime Minister Manmohan Singh more than two years ago would have been observed, > the Kashmiri population would not have felt so distanced or disconnected from > the peace process that is now running in the fifth year. In addition, the economic > development of the Kashmir valley suffers massively either due to the massive > presence of the Army and paramilitary forces or the unspent millions that lye > wasted in the government coffers mainly due to the political rivalry between > the coalition partners – People's Democratic Party (PDP) and Congress; the > tussle added vitriol to fire caused by the current crisis, as the PDP tried to > capitalise on it despite being an equal partner in 'crime'. > > > > > > In a classic act of political opportunism, the > PDP that was part of the cabinet decision that allowed the illegal transfer of > land to the SASB, decided to withdraw the support and blame its coalition > partner Congress for the whole issue. Only days ago, Kashmir's Forest Minister, > Qazi Mohammad Afzal, who belongs to the PDP openly boasted about his role in > effecting the land transfer. But when the public reaction grew, the PDP not > only withdrew support, but also issued public statements that sounded like > racial epithets designed to inflame the public opinion and hence provoke and enlarge > the constituency of protests and violence. > > > > > > The use of religion for political ends is not > new in south Asia. Mufti Mohammad Sayeed, the patron of PDP, has previously also > been accused of creating communal tensions for his electoral gains. In 1986, > during his time as Congress chief of Jammu and Kashmir, Mufti Sayeed allegedly engineered > communal riots against the Kashmiri Pandits in Anantnag district in which half > a dozen temples and homes of Hindus were damaged. This afforded Congress a > plausible reason to withdraw support from fledgling Ghulam Mohammad Shah government, > which was manufactured through defections from the National Conference at the > first place courtesy of Mufti Sayeed. Later, in 1990, when the massive public demonstrations > engulfed the Kashmir Valley, Mufti, as the Home Minister in the VP Singh government > deliberately sent Jagmohan as governor making it difficult for Farooq Abdullah > government to function. Farooq resigned and Jagmohan got a free ride employing state > terror that gave rise to massive militancy – a phenomenon that still costs > lives in Kashmir. Perhaps Mufti Sayeed was wishing to witness the repeat of > 1990 to feed his insatiable desire for power, but the timely action by the Azad > government diffused the situation successfully, leaving him lost and vulnerable. > > > > > > > Buoyed by the success and free from the > fetters of PDP conditionality, the Azad government has a huge task ahead. The > winter capital of the state, Jammu, has been virtually taken over by the Hindu militant > groups who have been attacking the government buildings, offices of the > political parties and threatening economic blockade of the Kashmiri Valley. The > government should not only deal with situation wisely, but also make sure that > no anti-Kashmiri rhetoric or action is allowed that will feed into the agenda > of extremist vision of a civilisational clash. It is hoped that all the political > parties will discard electoral opportunism and mount joint efforts to initiate > serious peace efforts. The successful handling of Kashmir's current crisis > offers a hope and a chance for the Congress government at the Centre to build > on this bold decision and work towards a final and durable solution of the > problem. > > > > > > The writer is a security analyst based > in London. He is also editor of quarterly journal Kashmir Affairs and > webportal www.kashmiraffairs.org > > > __________________________________________________________ > Not happy with your email address?. > Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From tapasrayx at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 17:28:03 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 07:58:03 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue In-Reply-To: References: <98f331e00806301826g1af66e90pacaacf4724a45a50@mail.gmail.com> <486A2C87.8080008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <486B6D4B.2000802@gmail.com> Radhika, You did not get my point. I was saying exactly the opposite of what you thought I was saying. My point was that Prakash Ray should be the last person to say that the government of J&K ought to get out of the wakf board/temple trust business. But I am not surprised, because he has done similar things in the past - spoken fiery words against Modi's "right-wing economic policies" if I remember correctly, while the party he is always defending, namely CPI(M), has been condemned on that very issue in the state it rules, i.e., West Bengal. On the present issue, he is suggesting that the J&K government get out of the wakfs and temple trusts, even though in West Bengal a minister heads the wakf board, and that board was the focus of an investigation into a massive scandal a few years ago, involving CPI(M) people. You will see this if you read the news items I copied below my post. Hope this helps. Tapas radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > Come on Tapas, don't tell us that there are no scams in west Bengal, only difference is that the "journalist" know well if they cover scams they are short lived to tell it with cadres having thier say.! > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tapas Ray > Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008 6:40 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue > To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> J&K should probably follow West Bengal's example, where a minister >> is >> the chairman of the board. Anybody remember the wakf scam? The >> more >> things change, the more they remain the same ... from 2002 to 2006 >> ... >> see the two clippings below. >> >> Tapas >> >> ------------------------ >> http://health.rediff.com/news/2002/jul/05wakf.htm >> >> July 05, 2002 >> >> Wakf Board property scam has Left Front squirming >> >> Amin Babu Ahmed in Kolkata >> >> The G R Bhattacharya Commission report, which unveiled a scam in >> Wakf >> property, has caught the ruling Left Front government in West >> Bengal off >> guard. >> >> After five years of thorough research and examination of >> witnesses, the >> commission concluded that there were major irregularities in the >> Wakf >> Board during the regime of the Left Front. >> >> The report says that Wakf properties in the state, worth millions >> of >> rupees, were given out on lease or rent to businessmen at meagre >> rates. >> .... >> >> The report, made public this week six months after it was placed >> in the >> assembly, has specifically named former chairman of the Wakf Board >> Hamimul Huda as an accused. >> >> Another former chairman of the board is also named, but no other >> person >> has been specifically accused of wrongdoing. >> >> Incidentally, a few days before the report was tabled in the >> assembly, >> Huda was arrested on charges of questionable deals pertaining to >> Wakf >> property and this has found mention in Minorities Development >> Minister >> Mohammad Salim's Action Taken Report (in response to the findings >> of the >> G R Bhattacharya Commission's findings). >> >> Since there are no proper records of the board's properties, it is >> difficult to gauge the extent of the scam, Salim said. >> >> The opposition alleges that the scam involves approximately Rs 10 >> billion (Rs 1000 crore). >> >> "How can they be so specific when the survey is still incomplete," >> asks >> Salim ... >> --------------------- >> >> http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=207459 >> >> October 30, 2006 >> >> Kolkata, October 30: The Waqf Board today appointed Abdus Sattar, >> state >> minister for minority development and madrasa education, as its >> new >> chairman. Sattar will be replacing Hannan Mollah, CPI-M MP, who >> remained >> in the post for two consecutive terms since 2000. >> >> According to sources in the department, Mollah was removed >> following >> allegations of corruption against him. >> >> Advertisement >> Sattar, however, refuted such allegations and said ... >> ------------------------- >> >>> It is to be noted that the Governor heads the Hindu shrine boards >>> and the chief minister heads the Muslim Wakfs. The government >> must get out >>> of this kind of control and must restrict itself to provide the >> needed> support to public who visit shrines, temples, mosques and >> other kinds of >>> religious places and festivals/fairs. There must be a rethinking >> on the tax >>> benefits extended to the religious bodies earning crores and >> crores of >>> rupees. Such changes in policies should be applied to all over >> the country, >>> not only in the J & K. >>> Regards, >>> >>> Prakash >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 18:13:08 2008 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 05:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Solving Amarnath: New Hope in Kashmir In-Reply-To: <47e122a70807020418o737c232l42c0b1b1e39de479@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <884537.28263.qm@web53608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Inder, Yes, of course, and then we can all ponder in leisure why BJP is making a communal issue of what is essentially environmental vigilantism;and also hope that BJP's communal politics will be diffused by calling it "real threat" and its politics "fraudulent" etc.. You have my best wishes. --- On Wed, 7/2/08, inder salim wrote: > From: inder salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Solving Amarnath: New Hope in Kashmir > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 4:48 PM > now, the real threat is BJP > which is trying its best to manufacture Ayodhya like crises > for a > fradulent return to > power > > > > On 7/2/08, Kashmir Affairs > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Solving > > Amarnath: A New Hope in Kashmir > > > > > > Murtaza > > Shibli > > > > > > [www.kashmiraffairs.org] > > > > > > > > The bold decision of the Congress government > > led by Ghulam Nabi Azad in Srinagar must be commended. > By revoking the land > > order to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB) that > was illegal at the first > > place, Azad has not only shown great courage and > decision making skills to deal > > with a crisis that was spiralling out of control, a la > 1990, but also taken > > both the People's Democratic Party (PDP) and the > fledgling separatist movement of > > the Hurriyat Conference off the guard, who were using > the land issue to > > manipulate public mind. Though the order came late; it > has, however, not only > > diffused the crisis, but also shown for the first time > in recent decades, that a > > crisis in Kashmir could be solved through bold and > timely political action. It > > also demonstrates to the Kashmiris that by resorting > to non-violent action, > > there is a room for manoeuvre and things can be > changed through peaceful means. > > Baring few incidents of stone pelting and burning of > tyres, the massive > > demonstrations were totally peaceful, without any > involvement of the militant > > groups, and without any communal flavour despite > propaganda by various quarters > > including mainstream Indian media. Sadly, the state > response was not that peaceful; > > five innocent lives were lost during the ten day > demonstrations. However, by > > Kashmiri standards, it could be classified as measured > and therefore a change > > from previous years, when the paramilitary forces > would kill dozens on small or > > no provocations. Incidentally, this is first such > massive crisis in the last > > two decades that has been solved peacefully and > decisively, in public favour, taking > > everyone by surprise. > > > > > > > > > > > > Another very positive aspect that emerged > > from this stand-off is that the Pakistani government > maintained a studied > > silence on the issue, thus not only keeping the spirit > of reconciliation > > between the two countries alive, but also showing > maturity by not succumbing to > > the pressure from the traditional hawkish elements > within the establishment when > > the temptation was real. This also > > prevented any wild claims within the Indian government > or Hindu militants to > > blame Pakistan for a role in the crisis. Though, the > Pakistani silence > > irritated the United Jihad Council chief Syed > Salahudin, who called it as 'surprising', > > it was in the right spirit of peace that the two > countries have embarked upon. > > Successful dealing of the crisis demonstrated that if > the right and positive > > decisions are taken, keeping in view the aspirations > of the Kashmiri people, it > > is possible to deal with crises without involving > Pakistan. It also bought > > another stark point to the fore – that Pakistan is > not always involved in all > > the crisis in Kashmir; a paranoia that has swept > across the Indian > > establishment and offers an alibi to the politicians > and security establishment > > for their systemic or judgemental failures or biases. > > > > > > > > > > > > The peaceful outcome also shows that if the > > promises and commitments are followed in the right > spirit, there is a room for > > massive improvement in the situation without employing > more than half a million > > troops and two dozen secret agencies. If > > the promises like 'zero tolerance for human rights > violations' made by the > > Prime Minister Manmohan Singh more than two years ago > would have been observed, > > the Kashmiri population would not have felt so > distanced or disconnected from > > the peace process that is now running in the fifth > year. In addition, the economic > > development of the Kashmir valley suffers massively > either due to the massive > > presence of the Army and paramilitary forces or the > unspent millions that lye > > wasted in the government coffers mainly due to the > political rivalry between > > the coalition partners – People's Democratic > Party (PDP) and Congress; the > > tussle added vitriol to fire caused by the current > crisis, as the PDP tried to > > capitalise on it despite being an equal partner in > 'crime'. > > > > > > > > > > > > In a classic act of political opportunism, the > > PDP that was part of the cabinet decision that allowed > the illegal transfer of > > land to the SASB, decided to withdraw the support and > blame its coalition > > partner Congress for the whole issue. Only days ago, > Kashmir's Forest Minister, > > Qazi Mohammad Afzal, who belongs to the PDP openly > boasted about his role in > > effecting the land transfer. But when the public > reaction grew, the PDP not > > only withdrew support, but also issued public > statements that sounded like > > racial epithets designed to inflame the public opinion > and hence provoke and enlarge > > the constituency of protests and violence. > > > > > > > > > > > > The use of religion for political ends is not > > new in south Asia. Mufti Mohammad Sayeed, the patron > of PDP, has previously also > > been accused of creating communal tensions for his > electoral gains. In 1986, > > during his time as Congress chief of Jammu and > Kashmir, Mufti Sayeed allegedly engineered > > communal riots against the Kashmiri Pandits in > Anantnag district in which half > > a dozen temples and homes of Hindus were damaged. This > afforded Congress a > > plausible reason to withdraw support from fledgling > Ghulam Mohammad Shah government, > > which was manufactured through defections from the > National Conference at the > > first place courtesy of Mufti Sayeed. Later, in 1990, > when the massive public demonstrations > > engulfed the Kashmir Valley, Mufti, as the Home > Minister in the VP Singh government > > deliberately sent Jagmohan as governor makingit > difficult for Farooq Abdullah > > government to function. Farooq resigned and Jagmohan > got a free ride employing state > > terror that gave rise to massive militancy – a > phenomenon that still costs > > lives in Kashmir. Perhaps Mufti Sayeed was wishing to > witness the repeat of > > 1990 to feed his insatiable desire for power, but the > timely action by the Azad > > government diffused the situation successfully, > leaving him lost and vulnerable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Buoyed by the success and free from the > > fetters of PDP conditionality, the Azad government has > a huge task ahead. The > > winter capital of the state, Jammu, has been virtually > taken over by the Hindu militant > > groups who have been attacking the government > buildings, offices of the > > political parties and threatening economic blockade of > the Kashmiri Valley. The > > government should not only deal with situation wisely, > but also make sure that > > no anti-Kashmiri rhetoric or action is allowed that > will feed into the agenda > > of extremist vision of a civilisational clash. It is > hoped that all the political > > parties will discard electoral opportunism and mount > joint efforts to initiate > > serious peace efforts. The successful handling of > Kashmir's current crisis > > offers a hope and a chance for the Congress government > at the Centre to build > > on this bold decision and work towards a final and > durable solution of the > > problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > The writer is a security analyst based > > in London. He is also editor of quarterly journal > Kashmir Affairs and > > webportal www.kashmiraffairs.org > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Not happy with your email address?. > > Get the one you really want - millions of new email > addresses available now at Yahoo! > http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 18:52:31 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 18:52:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] few images from London performances Message-ID: <47e122a70807020622u1c65960an630622ddf26ccf9@mail.gmail.com> dear all uploaded are couple of images from my shrot London visit please click my little blog to see-- http://indersalim.livejournal.com with love inder salim From shuddha at sarai.net Wed Jul 2 21:34:18 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 21:34:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Reader-List] Amarnath Yatra In-Reply-To: <821531.73545.qm@web57215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <821531.73545.qm@web57215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1576D835-1201-48E9-9047-D53CA5FDEB3D@sarai.net> Dear Kshemendra, I agree with you on this point. Debates about the crimes of ancestors is pointless, nobody's ancestors are innocent. best Shuddha On 01-Jul-08, at 7:53 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Shuddha > > > An interesting debate. It would be sad if it went the direction of > "if not you and not your father, then it was your grandfather who > sullied the water I am drinking". > > > Having, I think, a fair idea of your 'philosophy' in such matters, > I found the comment somewhat out-of-place. Your response makes > clear your attitude. > > > Connected thought - the problem with most discussions on Kashmir > (and such issues) is in opposing sides of an argument using > different 'point of time in the past' as reference points to > specify 'that is when the problem started' and then around that > weave arguments about what happened 'thereafter'. When the > 'absolute' reference point in time differs, it is highly unlikely > that there will be common areas of agreement or even understanding. > > > In the case of Kashmir perhaps 1947 should be that 'absolute' > reference point in time. What happened before 1947 can at best be > 'backgrounders' for the 1947 crossover. If the 'backgrounders' > become a part of the 'main body' of arguments, then any discussion > will ultimately only be a slanging match. Not you? Then it was your > forefathers. > > > That is why the reigns of Rajas and Maharajahs and Badshahs and > Sultans and their 'doings' need to be avoided in a discussion on > Kashmir. They 'owned' terriotory. They 'owned' the people. They > bought and sold not only territory and protection for territory but > also the people. That is how the world was. That is how the world > still is in many of it's parts. Protesting the 'now' is legitimate > in my opinion. Protesting the 'past' is foolish in my opinion. > > > Thats it for now. > > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Reader-List] Amarnath Yatra > To: "sarai list" > Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 5:39 PM > > Dear Kshemendra, > > Thank you for your considered comment, and the opportunity it gives > me for a clarification. if you are implying that the 'land grab' in > Kashmir began before the advent of Dogra Rule, then you are > absolutely right, and I am in agreement with you. All Kings and > monarchs (no matter of what faith or dynasty) are land-grabbers who > dignify themselves with royal titles. They claim an authority on > land, based on the pure fact of their monopoly over the means of > violence. > > I have said this before, I have no brief, either to defend or to > oppose, the actions of any king, anywhere, least of all, in Kashmir, > on the basis of their faith. As far as I am concerned, all rulers and > monarchs, represent autocratic principles of rule, that I have no > reason to uphold or defend. This goes for Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, > Sikh, Christian, Jewish or Agnostic or Pagan Kings. I am absolutely > certain that the Muslim kings of Kashmir, with some significant > exceptions unleashed oppression and violence on the people of > Kashmir. In this, they were no different, from the non-Muslim kings > who came before them, or after them. My prejudices, in this specific > instance, are against Kings and Kingship, not against the faiths that > the Kings claim to uphold. Hence, I hope you will now agree that by > saying this I have not in fact taken the debate into 'communal' > territory. > > best > > Shuddha > > > > > > On 01-Jul-08, at 3:00 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Shuddha > > > By linking the current day happenings with the Dogra Rule (be as it > may have been in the context of 'land grants') you have crossed the > 1947 Rubicon. > > > What would stop anyone in going further back in time and bring in the > excesses of the preceding ruling dynasties of various other faiths? > > > You yourself have now taken the debate into 'communal' territory. > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From parthaekka at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 21:50:28 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 21:50:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Open letter to the prime minister of India to scrapthe Indo US nuclear Deal In-Reply-To: References: <32144e990807010640s18d1927eibc2baf16edca12e8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990807020920k2bf8b9cfnefe57d984a61b761@mail.gmail.com> Hi, 1. Please read the specifics of the act which allows India to stockpile in case it feels that supply is an issue 2. At the end of the day, there is more than one supplier and Australia is already willing to sell to India and is waiting for the approval to go through. In short, India will be free to buy from any supplier and please don't hit the "imperialist" button because at the end of the day all these nations look at enhancing their coffers as happened in the recent bid for fighter planes. Where kick back, etc is concerned - well, whether it is "the party which ruled the nation forfifty years" or any other, time has shown us that none are different, and the unfortunate fact is that India allows people to govern us who we'd not trust with our children. Whether the coffins during the recent Kargill war or Bofors, it won't make a difference. As for the cost, a) With the spiralling cost of oil and coal - not to mention what it's doing to the environment the existing infrastructure is crumbling. b) Global warming and melting glaciers makes hydal power an uncertain future Sure, the start up cots is expensive - and so is setting up a new dam or a coal power station. Don't see any logic in what you're saying - except for a crib against the Congress. I really don't care who's in power. What I do care about is that India has sufficient power for the future. Rgds, Partha ............................................ On 7/2/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > Hi Partha, > > It is sincerly hoped that you have read the statement by the nuclear scientists who have served India for years on the issue of this N-deal, where in they clearly maintain that this deal amounts to all commercial purchases being controlled by washington and India would have to be at the mercy of washington even after the NSG agrees to supply uranium, which exactly is objectionable. Also, the party which ruled the nation forfifty years has all the deals with kickbacks to the first family which histroy has recorded well, be it PL 480 funds during the nehru and his mixed economy, or Indira and her poisoned predecessor Shastriji, and russian deals or the latter version of mr. Clean with Bofors who later had to pay the price but still his uncle Q got the freezed funds thanks to his queen. > > Moot point is nuclear energy is costliest and to set up plants we need to spend billions for long period of 25 years with lot many contracts and lots more kickbacks, hence the Pm is keen for this deal with US, being Mr. Honest, he is out there to prove how dishonest he is to the national interest with his personal loyalty to the first family.! > > Regards. > From: Partha Dasgupta > Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008 7:11 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Open letter to the prime minister of India to scrapthe Indo US nuclear Deal > To: Asit asitreds > Cc: Sarai Reader List > > > Hi Asit, > > > > Just for a moment, lets not wear the blinkers of "US Imperialism" and > > look at what the scenario is and what the options are: > > > > 1. India has already started the Nuclear Race with Pakistan a > > long time back, > > and with the distrust between the nations, would be surprised if > > they'd stop > > just because the current treaty is not signed. So what is this > > talk about India > > being Nuclear Free? > > > > 2. How does signing make India lose it's "hard earned > > sovereignty"? On one hand > > you talk of a nuclear race and on the other do not wish to sign > > on the dotted line > > to use nuclear bye products for peaceful purposes! > > > > 3. We're already chock a block on Coal and other power creators. With > > the water based > > ones, the displacement will be high (not counting the arguments > > with Pakistan & Bangladesh) > > and, of course, the recent posts on this list about the water > > in Kashmir. > > > > 4. What sustainable method of power generation do you have in > > mind - > > unless your contention > > is that India should live without power and that power is only > > for cities. Sounds highly illogical > > to me. > > > > In fact the whole message comes across as " they're the US, therefore > > everything they do is evil" which is something I will not accept > > as a > > reason. Both Russia and China have Nuclear capability for both power > > and warfare, yet because it is the US that has offered it, the treaty > > has become a tool of "US Imperialism". > > > > Doesn't wash. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > .................... > > > > On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 5:28 PM, Asit asitreds > > wrote: > > > Dear Friends > > > > > > Please see the following letter to the prime > > minister> to scrap the Indo-US nuclear deal, if you agree with the > > political content > > > please endorse the letter.And if possible please forward it to > > others.> > > > > > > > > > With Regards > > > > > > Asit > > > > > > > > > > > > AN OPEN LETTER TO THE PRIME MINSTER OF INDIA TO SCRAP THE INDO > > US NUCLEAR > > > DEAL > > > > > > > > > > > > To > > > > > > Shri Manmohan Singh > > > > > > Prime Minister > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Prime Minister, > > > > > > > > > > > > We the undersigned demand scrapping of the Indo-US Nuclear Deal with > > > immediate effect. The content of the Deal which is currently being > > > negotiated between India and the US was the first laid out in > > the joint > > > statement issued by the Prime Minister and the US President on > > July 18, 2005 > > > from Washington DC and further reiterated on March 2, 2006 in > > another joint > > > statement by them issued from New Delhi. The signing of the > > Henry Hyde Act > > > on December 18, 2006 is logical interference of the content of > > the Act > > > legally making India a junior ally of the US Imperialism > > confiscating> and trunacating > > > our hard earned sovereignty. > > > > > > > > > > > > We therefore demand that the Indo-US Nuclear Deal be scrapped > > given up with > > > immediate effect and the ongoing talks between IAEA should be > > called off > > > immediately. > > > > > > > > > > > > The Indo-US Nuclear Deal is patently anti-people, will make > > India a > > > strategic ally of American Imperialism in South Asia to impose > > its hegemony > > > over Asia. The Deal also negates the concrete achievements > > gained by the > > > International and national peace movements for disarmament and > > Nuclear-free > > > World. After the example of the ruthless genocide, devastation and > > > occupation of Iraq before us, we feel that the Indo-US Nuclear > > Deal will > > > become an instrument for ruthlessly imposing the neo-liberal > > economic agenda > > > and pliant regimes over the impoverished people of the Third > > World and > > > further tightening the hold through the Indo-US Nuclear Deal, US > > Imperialism> will have a firm grip over the governments of the > > independent> nation-states of India and Asia. This makes a mockery > > of the cherished > > > values of equal and democratic world order and the aspirations > > of the > > > national liberation struggles including the whole spirit of > > decolonization.> > > > > > > > > > The Indo-US Nuclear Deal is an outrageous instrument of > > recolonization of > > > India and Third World. The Deal, as and when comes through will, > > grievously> undermine the current global; regime of nuclear non- > > proliferation, as it is > > > meant to make an unique exception in case of India, in gross > > violation of > > > underlying principles of the International peace, workers, > > environment and > > > women's movements. > > > > > > > > > > > > The fact that Pakistan has been brusquely refused a similar deal > > by the US > > > in spite of persistent clamouring, and Iran is being > > demonstratively coerced > > > to desist from developing its own nuclear power production > > allowed and > > > encouraged under article IV of the NPT which further brings out > > graphically> the abominable discriminatory nature of the Deal. The > > deal is likely to > > > trigger a stepped up vertical and horizontal proliferations all > > over Asia. > > > This goes against our commitment of Nuclear-free Asia and World. > > by enabling > > > India to import fuel natural or enriched Uranium, from abroad > > the 'Deal' > > > would make it possible for India to use the indigenously > > produced Uranium > > > exclusively for bomb making. This possible escalation in its fissile > > > material production capacity, in all likelihood, it will push > > Pakistan> further to nuclearise even at great cost, and thereby > > aggravate tensions and > > > accelerate the arms race in the region with horrifying > > consequences. The > > > arms race will divert resources of the country away from > > development so > > > desperately required by the toiling masses to overcome their current > > > poverty. > > > > > > > > > > > > We totally reject the proposition that it will enhance India's > > energy> security and, we categorically assert that nuclear power > > is prohibitively > > > costly., therefore the Deal will distort India's energy options > > by diverting > > > resource guzzling, and the intrinsically hazardous and potentially > > > catastrophic, nuclear power at the cost of eco-friendly and many > > times> financially cheaper renewable sources of energy. > > > > > > > > > > > > With the human development index of India and the Third World > > miserably low, > > > we demand that instead of spending irrationally on nuclear power, > > > expenditures on in health, education, food security, rural and urban > > > employment be enhanced. > > > > > > We want to remind you that India as the leader of the Non- > > Aligned Movement > > > and as vocal participant in various international forums > > including the UN, > > > has always committed itself for a Nuclear-free World and > > abolition of the > > > existing nuclear weapons. In the spirit of the above we want the > > Government> of India to ban the entry of nuclear powered sub > > marines of the US and other > > > major NATO countries. After six decades after of the Hiroshima > > and Nagasaki > > > nuclear tragedies, we demand that immediate steps to be taken > > for a > > > Nuclear-free Asia and the world. > > > > > > > > > > > > The above Indo-US Nuclear Deal will further reinforce the > > unequal strategic > > > relationship between the US and thereby would add momentum to > > the US > > > imperialistic project for unfettered global dominance .We reject any > > > ambitions of the Indian ruling classes to act as the a Big > > Brother in South > > > Asia or to emerge as a global power basking in the reflected > > glory of global > > > headman and goon. This will not only undermine India's position > > as a > > > founding and leading member of the Non- Aligned Movement but > > will seriously > > > undermine prestige of NAM as a whole; > > > > > > of meekly surrendering to the US Imperialism defying the democratic > > > aspirations of the toiling masses of the Third World for a > > Nuclear-free, > > > just and livable world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vijay Pratap(Convener Lokayan) > > > > > > > > > > > > Babu Lal Sharma (Convenor, Global Gandhi Forum) > > > > > > > > > > > > Rakesh Bhatt (Coordinator, SADED/CSDS) > > > > > > > > > > > > Kiran Shaheen(Media and Social Activist) > > > > > > > > > > > > Chandrika(Editor-Dakhal Duniya web magazine) > > > > > > > > > > > > Prakash Kumar Ray (Film maker and Research Scholar/Film > > Studies/School of > > > art & Aesthetic JNU) > > > > > > > > > > > > Jeet Bhattacharya (Research Scholar, Film Studies, School of art > > & Aesthetic > > > JNU) > > > > > > > > > > > > Rishika Mehershi (Research Scholar, Performing Arts, School of > > art & > > > Aesthetic JNU) > > > > > > > > > > > > Asit (Researcher and Social Activist) > > > > > > > > > > > > Kumar Sameer(Social Activist) > > > > > > > > > > > > Peeyush Pant ( Editor-Lok Samvad) > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919811047132 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From shuddha at sarai.net Wed Jul 2 21:34:18 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 21:34:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Reader-List] Amarnath Yatra In-Reply-To: <821531.73545.qm@web57215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <821531.73545.qm@web57215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1576D835-1201-48E9-9047-D53CA5FDEB3D@sarai.net> Dear Kshemendra, I agree with you on this point. Debates about the crimes of ancestors is pointless, nobody's ancestors are innocent. best Shuddha On 01-Jul-08, at 7:53 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Shuddha > > > An interesting debate. It would be sad if it went the direction of > "if not you and not your father, then it was your grandfather who > sullied the water I am drinking". > > > Having, I think, a fair idea of your 'philosophy' in such matters, > I found the comment somewhat out-of-place. Your response makes > clear your attitude. > > > Connected thought - the problem with most discussions on Kashmir > (and such issues) is in opposing sides of an argument using > different 'point of time in the past' as reference points to > specify 'that is when the problem started' and then around that > weave arguments about what happened 'thereafter'. When the > 'absolute' reference point in time differs, it is highly unlikely > that there will be common areas of agreement or even understanding. > > > In the case of Kashmir perhaps 1947 should be that 'absolute' > reference point in time. What happened before 1947 can at best be > 'backgrounders' for the 1947 crossover. If the 'backgrounders' > become a part of the 'main body' of arguments, then any discussion > will ultimately only be a slanging match. Not you? Then it was your > forefathers. > > > That is why the reigns of Rajas and Maharajahs and Badshahs and > Sultans and their 'doings' need to be avoided in a discussion on > Kashmir. They 'owned' terriotory. They 'owned' the people. They > bought and sold not only territory and protection for territory but > also the people. That is how the world was. That is how the world > still is in many of it's parts. Protesting the 'now' is legitimate > in my opinion. Protesting the 'past' is foolish in my opinion. > > > Thats it for now. > > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Reader-List] Amarnath Yatra > To: "sarai list" > Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 5:39 PM > > Dear Kshemendra, > > Thank you for your considered comment, and the opportunity it gives > me for a clarification. if you are implying that the 'land grab' in > Kashmir began before the advent of Dogra Rule, then you are > absolutely right, and I am in agreement with you. All Kings and > monarchs (no matter of what faith or dynasty) are land-grabbers who > dignify themselves with royal titles. They claim an authority on > land, based on the pure fact of their monopoly over the means of > violence. > > I have said this before, I have no brief, either to defend or to > oppose, the actions of any king, anywhere, least of all, in Kashmir, > on the basis of their faith. As far as I am concerned, all rulers and > monarchs, represent autocratic principles of rule, that I have no > reason to uphold or defend. This goes for Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, > Sikh, Christian, Jewish or Agnostic or Pagan Kings. I am absolutely > certain that the Muslim kings of Kashmir, with some significant > exceptions unleashed oppression and violence on the people of > Kashmir. In this, they were no different, from the non-Muslim kings > who came before them, or after them. My prejudices, in this specific > instance, are against Kings and Kingship, not against the faiths that > the Kings claim to uphold. Hence, I hope you will now agree that by > saying this I have not in fact taken the debate into 'communal' > territory. > > best > > Shuddha > > > > > > On 01-Jul-08, at 3:00 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Shuddha > > > By linking the current day happenings with the Dogra Rule (be as it > may have been in the context of 'land grants') you have crossed the > 1947 Rubicon. > > > What would stop anyone in going further back in time and bring in the > excesses of the preceding ruling dynasties of various other faiths? > > > You yourself have now taken the debate into 'communal' territory. > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From tapasrayx at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 22:38:14 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:08:14 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Open letter to the prime minister of India to scrapthe Indo US nuclear Deal In-Reply-To: References: <32144e990807010640s18d1927eibc2baf16edca12e8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <486BB5FE.8080001@gmail.com> Radhika, Partha, Asit, and others, Whether the nuclear deal is a sell-out or not, and if so, whether this sell-out is in India's interest, and what kind of interest that may be, are questions that can be debated. One may also argue over the possibility of kickbacks for our national "leadership" - currently Congress - being the real incentive. To me, however, these are secondary issues. The primary question is, whether nuclear power per se is an acceptable option or or not. (I will keep the weapons issue aside in this post.) Before addressing the primary issue, let me talk about one of the secondary ones - the question of economic benefit. Just as there are studies which show that nuclear power is economically viable, there are others which show that nuclear power plants are not what they are touted to be in that respect. Also, it can be argued that clean technologies, especially solar, could have been incomparably more viable by now than they are, if even a small fraction of the investment that has been, and is being made in nuclear R&D, had gone to them. At least one reason why this did not happen, I would think, is that there is no direct military use of solar power - unless, like Archimedes, one wants to burn up the adversary's tanks, ships, aircraft and missiles with focused sunlight. As for the bad economics of nuclear power, please see these two studies/papers. The first is by "tree-hugging" Greenpeace, but the second is by a university policy research centre in the UK: The economics of nuclear power Greenpeace Research report 2007 http://www.greenpeace.org/raw/content/international/press/reports/the-economics-of-nuclear-power.pdf The economics of nuclear power: analysis of recent studies Steve Thomas (University of Greenwich) http://www.psiru.org/reports/2005-09-E-Nuclear.pdf While you are at it, you could also take a look at these, written by an IIT Kanpur alumnus who went on to earn a PhD in physics from Boston University: http://www.outlookindia.com/author.asp?name=M.V.+Ramana and Nuclear Power in India: Failed Past, Dubious Future M. V. Ramana http://www.npec-web.org/Essays/Ramana-NuclearPowerInIndia.pdf Now the primary question: the acceptability of nuclear power as such. In my opinion, it would be unacceptable even if its economics were excellent, and the argument that it is a quick means of achieving "development" does not change anything. There are too many risks, some of which are unknown. But some are known. I have quoted below from two articles published in major journals, which point this out. The one by Mangano and others, is about known cancer risks from nuclear power plants in the USA and the West. I believe there have been similar findings in India, too. The other article - by Nusbaum - is about the risks involved in disposing of the radioactive waste of power plants. If you read the entire article, you will see that Nusbaum is not against nuclear power plants as such, hence is not what some of you might call a tree-hugging fundamentalist. (If any of you want the entire articles, let me know and I will email them to you. I am not posting them in full, so as not to clutter the list.) Note that the risks discussed in these articles are related to normal operations with proper safety measures in place. I am not even talking about the effect of accidents, of which Chernobyl and Three-Mile Island have been the worst so far. There is plenty on the web on these things too. A very common argument is that present-day society is "risk society", and there are risks involved in any technology. What this argument overlooks is that the risks involved in nuclear technology (peaceful ones) is of a completely different order from other energy technologies, such as hydrocarbons. And by the time the human race wakes up to these risks, it will be to late. The damage will have been done. This has been the case with hydrocarbons (global warming, lung diseases, etc.), which the developed industrial countries - none anywhere near the USA in scale or intensity - burned up for decades. Only, in the case of nuclear power, the effects are perhaps incomparably more disastrous. This leads us to another question: if all this is already known, why do policymakers in many countries (including India, USA, and recently UK after a lull) show such enthusiasm for nuclear power? In my opinion, it is the attraction for new technology at any cost, which is a product of the instrumental rationality that is typical of modernity. This rationality makes these policymakers ignore "tree-hugging" values and accept the so-called gains, however short-term these may be, and however disputed the cost-benefit analyses on which the perception of these "gains" may be based. Of course, coming back to Radhika, there may be a little cream to skim off, too! Tapas -------------------------------- Elevated childhood cancer incidence proximate to U.S. nuclear power plants. Joseph J. Mangano, Janette Sherman, Carolyn Chang, Amie Dave, Elyssa Feinberg and Marina Frimer. Archives of Environmental Health 58.2 (Feb 2003): p74(9). Abstract: Numerous reports document elevated cancer rates among children living near nuclear facilities in various nations. Little research has examined U.S. rates near the nation's 103 operating reactors. This study determined that cancer incidence for children < 10 yr of age who live within 30 mi (48 km) of each of 14 nuclear plants in the eastern United States (49 counties with a population > 16.8 million) exceeds the national average. The excess 12.4% risk suggests that 1 in 9 cancers among children who reside near nuclear reactors is linked to radioactive emissions. If cancer incidence in 5 western states is used as a baseline, the ratio is closer to 1 in 5. Incidence is particularly elevated for leukemia. Childhood cancer mortality exceeds the national average in 7 of the 14 study areas. ------------------------------ Radiation risk to future generations from long-lived radioactive waste. Neil J. Nusbaum Journal of Community Health 31.5 (Oct 2006): p363(5). ... The physical characteristics and integrity of the storage facility include features such as the overlying vegetation (2) that, in the absence of ongoing human agricultural maintenance, are subject to substantial variation with changes in conditions such as local rainfall. It remains highly speculative whether any arrangement for storage which we as a species can now devise would remain functional for ten radioactive half lives, until the time when the decay process is 99.9% complete (even leaving aside any additional decay time for radioactive daughters). Indeed, for some of the longer-lived waste products, even a single half life of decay would require a time frame substantially longer the age of the most ancient surviving human architectural creations. While we can be confident of the shape of natural radioactive decay curves over geologic time, the time to failure for individual human artifacts is much less predictable. Accordingly, one must harbor some skepticism that a single repository in the Utah desert will remain intact for even a single half life of one of the important longer lived transuranuium isotopes (Plutonium-239, half life of 2.4 x [10.sup.4] years.). (3) Of the seven wonders of the ancient world, only one (4) has proven able to persist relatively intact for even a few millennia. The sole survivor, the pyramids of Giza, was and is located in proximity to a major metropolis. This proximity has kept it under human observation, but also has made the structure subject to deterioration from adjacent human activity. It is not surprising perhaps that attention has focused on site placement distant from current population centers. The potential effects of long lived radioactive waste storage also involve consideration of the potential economic cost and safety hazard to those in the region, both the large numbers now living in Las Vegas, and the now far smaller number who live in closer physical proximity to the Yucca Mountain site. It seems speculative at best to assume that any of the desert terrain of the American West will remain sparsely populated centuries into the future, merely because such climate seems inhospitable under present levels of technology and levels of population pressure. In the medium to long term, in addition, patterns of climate may also change as a consequence of phenomena such as the increasing worldwide burden of greenhouse gases, and could make current desert areas more desirable (either by change in their own local climate for the better, or by change for the worse in climate in other areas). The recent efforts at emergency management of the Hurricane Katrina relief effort make it prudent to consider how efforts might be coordinated to contain and control any degradation of the integrity of a national repository of long lived radioactive waste, in particular such as at Yucca Flats in Nevada. ... --------------------------------- radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > Hi Partha, > > It is sincerly hoped that you have read the statement by the nuclear scientists who have served India for years on the issue of this N-deal, where in they clearly maintain that this deal amounts to all commercial purchases being controlled by washington and India would have to be at the mercy of washington even after the NSG agrees to supply uranium, which exactly is objectionable. Also, the party which ruled the nation forfifty years has all the deals with kickbacks to the first family which histroy has recorded well, be it PL 480 funds during the nehru and his mixed economy, or Indira and her poisoned predecessor Shastriji, and russian deals or the latter version of mr. Clean with Bofors who later had to pay the price but still his uncle Q got the freezed funds thanks to his queen. > > Moot point is nuclear energy is costliest and to set up plants we need to spend billions for long period of 25 years with lot many contracts and lots more kickbacks, hence the Pm is keen for this deal with US, being Mr. Honest, he is out there to prove how dishonest he is to the national interest with his personal loyalty to the first family.! > > Regards. > From: Partha Dasgupta > Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008 7:11 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Open letter to the prime minister of India to scrapthe Indo US nuclear Deal > To: Asit asitreds > Cc: Sarai Reader List > >> Hi Asit, >> >> Just for a moment, lets not wear the blinkers of "US Imperialism" and >> look at what the scenario is and what the options are: >> >> 1. India has already started the Nuclear Race with Pakistan a >> long time back, >> and with the distrust between the nations, would be surprised if >> they'd stop >> just because the current treaty is not signed. So what is this >> talk about India >> being Nuclear Free? >> >> 2. How does signing make India lose it's "hard earned >> sovereignty"? On one hand >> you talk of a nuclear race and on the other do not wish to sign >> on the dotted line >> to use nuclear bye products for peaceful purposes! >> >> 3. We're already chock a block on Coal and other power creators. With >> the water based >> ones, the displacement will be high (not counting the arguments >> with Pakistan & Bangladesh) >> and, of course, the recent posts on this list about the water >> in Kashmir. >> >> 4. What sustainable method of power generation do you have in >> mind - >> unless your contention >> is that India should live without power and that power is only >> for cities. Sounds highly illogical >> to me. >> >> In fact the whole message comes across as " they're the US, therefore >> everything they do is evil" which is something I will not accept >> as a >> reason. Both Russia and China have Nuclear capability for both power >> and warfare, yet because it is the US that has offered it, the treaty >> has become a tool of "US Imperialism". >> >> Doesn't wash. >> >> Rgds, Partha >> .................... >> >> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 5:28 PM, Asit asitreds >> wrote: >>> Dear Friends >>> >>> Please see the following letter to the prime >> minister> to scrap the Indo-US nuclear deal, if you agree with the >> political content >>> please endorse the letter.And if possible please forward it to >> others.> >>> >>> With Regards >>> >>> Asit >>> >>> >>> >>> AN OPEN LETTER TO THE PRIME MINSTER OF INDIA TO SCRAP THE INDO >> US NUCLEAR >>> DEAL >>> >>> >>> >>> To >>> >>> Shri Manmohan Singh >>> >>> Prime Minister >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear Prime Minister, >>> >>> >>> >>> We the undersigned demand scrapping of the Indo-US Nuclear Deal with >>> immediate effect. The content of the Deal which is currently being >>> negotiated between India and the US was the first laid out in >> the joint >>> statement issued by the Prime Minister and the US President on >> July 18, 2005 >>> from Washington DC and further reiterated on March 2, 2006 in >> another joint >>> statement by them issued from New Delhi. The signing of the >> Henry Hyde Act >>> on December 18, 2006 is logical interference of the content of >> the Act >>> legally making India a junior ally of the US Imperialism >> confiscating> and trunacating >>> our hard earned sovereignty. >>> >>> >>> >>> We therefore demand that the Indo-US Nuclear Deal be scrapped >> given up with >>> immediate effect and the ongoing talks between IAEA should be >> called off >>> immediately. >>> >>> >>> >>> The Indo-US Nuclear Deal is patently anti-people, will make >> India a >>> strategic ally of American Imperialism in South Asia to impose >> its hegemony >>> over Asia. The Deal also negates the concrete achievements >> gained by the >>> International and national peace movements for disarmament and >> Nuclear-free >>> World. After the example of the ruthless genocide, devastation and >>> occupation of Iraq before us, we feel that the Indo-US Nuclear >> Deal will >>> become an instrument for ruthlessly imposing the neo-liberal >> economic agenda >>> and pliant regimes over the impoverished people of the Third >> World and >>> further tightening the hold through the Indo-US Nuclear Deal, US >> Imperialism> will have a firm grip over the governments of the >> independent> nation-states of India and Asia. This makes a mockery >> of the cherished >>> values of equal and democratic world order and the aspirations >> of the >>> national liberation struggles including the whole spirit of >> decolonization.> >>> >>> The Indo-US Nuclear Deal is an outrageous instrument of >> recolonization of >>> India and Third World. The Deal, as and when comes through will, >> grievously> undermine the current global; regime of nuclear non- >> proliferation, as it is >>> meant to make an unique exception in case of India, in gross >> violation of >>> underlying principles of the International peace, workers, >> environment and >>> women's movements. >>> >>> >>> >>> The fact that Pakistan has been brusquely refused a similar deal >> by the US >>> in spite of persistent clamouring, and Iran is being >> demonstratively coerced >>> to desist from developing its own nuclear power production >> allowed and >>> encouraged under article IV of the NPT which further brings out >> graphically> the abominable discriminatory nature of the Deal. The >> deal is likely to >>> trigger a stepped up vertical and horizontal proliferations all >> over Asia. >>> This goes against our commitment of Nuclear-free Asia and World. >> by enabling >>> India to import fuel natural or enriched Uranium, from abroad >> the 'Deal' >>> would make it possible for India to use the indigenously >> produced Uranium >>> exclusively for bomb making. This possible escalation in its fissile >>> material production capacity, in all likelihood, it will push >> Pakistan> further to nuclearise even at great cost, and thereby >> aggravate tensions and >>> accelerate the arms race in the region with horrifying >> consequences. The >>> arms race will divert resources of the country away from >> development so >>> desperately required by the toiling masses to overcome their current >>> poverty. >>> >>> >>> >>> We totally reject the proposition that it will enhance India's >> energy> security and, we categorically assert that nuclear power >> is prohibitively >>> costly., therefore the Deal will distort India's energy options >> by diverting >>> resource guzzling, and the intrinsically hazardous and potentially >>> catastrophic, nuclear power at the cost of eco-friendly and many >> times> financially cheaper renewable sources of energy. >>> >>> >>> With the human development index of India and the Third World >> miserably low, >>> we demand that instead of spending irrationally on nuclear power, >>> expenditures on in health, education, food security, rural and urban >>> employment be enhanced. >>> >>> We want to remind you that India as the leader of the Non- >> Aligned Movement >>> and as vocal participant in various international forums >> including the UN, >>> has always committed itself for a Nuclear-free World and >> abolition of the >>> existing nuclear weapons. In the spirit of the above we want the >> Government> of India to ban the entry of nuclear powered sub >> marines of the US and other >>> major NATO countries. After six decades after of the Hiroshima >> and Nagasaki >>> nuclear tragedies, we demand that immediate steps to be taken >> for a >>> Nuclear-free Asia and the world. >>> >>> >>> >>> The above Indo-US Nuclear Deal will further reinforce the >> unequal strategic >>> relationship between the US and thereby would add momentum to >> the US >>> imperialistic project for unfettered global dominance .We reject any >>> ambitions of the Indian ruling classes to act as the a Big >> Brother in South >>> Asia or to emerge as a global power basking in the reflected >> glory of global >>> headman and goon. This will not only undermine India's position >> as a >>> founding and leading member of the Non- Aligned Movement but >> will seriously >>> undermine prestige of NAM as a whole; >>> >>> of meekly surrendering to the US Imperialism defying the democratic >>> aspirations of the toiling masses of the Third World for a >> Nuclear-free, >>> just and livable world. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Vijay Pratap(Convener Lokayan) >>> >>> >>> >>> Babu Lal Sharma (Convenor, Global Gandhi Forum) >>> >>> >>> >>> Rakesh Bhatt (Coordinator, SADED/CSDS) >>> >>> >>> >>> Kiran Shaheen(Media and Social Activist) >>> >>> >>> >>> Chandrika(Editor-Dakhal Duniya web magazine) >>> >>> >>> >>> Prakash Kumar Ray (Film maker and Research Scholar/Film >> Studies/School of >>> art & Aesthetic JNU) >>> >>> >>> >>> Jeet Bhattacharya (Research Scholar, Film Studies, School of art >> & Aesthetic >>> JNU) >>> >>> >>> >>> Rishika Mehershi (Research Scholar, Performing Arts, School of >> art & >>> Aesthetic JNU) >>> >>> >>> >>> Asit (Researcher and Social Activist) >>> >>> >>> >>> Kumar Sameer(Social Activist) >>> >>> >>> >>> Peeyush Pant ( Editor-Lok Samvad) >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> >> >> -- >> Partha Dasgupta >> +919811047132 >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From anansi1 at earthlink.net Wed Jul 2 22:56:36 2008 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul Miller) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 13:26:36 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] MIT Press - Sound Unbound: Digital Media, Contemporary Sound Art In-Reply-To: <25066048.1215012033666.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <25066048.1215012033666.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Sound Unbound, an Anthology edited by Paul D. Miller aka Dj Spooky MIT Press 2008 > Sound Unbound is an anthology of writings about contemporary art and > digital media that I put together for MIT Press this year. The book > just came out and has quickly become one of MIT Press's top selling > books. It has essays and interviews with people as diverse as Brian > Eno, Steve Reich, Chuck D, Pierre Boulez, Saul Williams, Jonathan > Lethem, Bruce Sterling, Daphne Keller (the Senior Legal Counsel to > Google), and even some occasional Nettime and Sarai Reader > contributors like Naeem Mohaimen, or Erik Davis and Ken Jordan. The > basic idea of the"Sound Unbound" was to break down the boundaries > that the conventional artworld has set up towards - gasp - multi- > cultural digital media. The central concept was to figure out a way > to get people out of the deeply Eurocentric discourse around digital > media and contemporary art, and to build a bridge between a dynamic > and multi-cultural contemporary art practice and multimedia theory. > One could argue that the book is a manifesto for a kind of > fragmentation - contemporary media is rife with what some like to > call the 'logic of addition'. Sampling, collage based narratives, > and the basic sense of "urban youth culture" and its cousin, web > browsing, are two epiphenomena that go with things like ipods, > mobile phones, webcams, laptops, satellite television, "web 2.0": > The dj mix grows like wild plants without deep roots (rhizomes) in > the spaces between older forms of mass media (newspapers, film, > radio and television). In the world of Sound Unbound, "normal" media outlets like Fox News, NBC, CNN etc compete with Arab satellite channels, bloggers and civil journalism, hypes emerge online, Youtube and Twitter turn everybody into a media producer. But deeply rooted trees are not that easily overgrown. The media have become individualized, fragmented - and at the same time, specialized and opened up. That's what the book is about. It's 36 essays and interviews about the culture of paradox we inhabit now from the view point of artists, writers, activists, and cultural producers that I think are pushing the envelope in both the normal "artworld" and contemporary digital media. Here's a remix of the introduction to the audio companion to the book. It's based on research into Sub Rosa Record's archive. The audio companion has rare material from Allen Ginsberg, James Joyce, Iggy Pop, Jean Cocteau, Ryuichi Sakamoto, Gertrude Stein, Antonin Artaud, Kurt Schwitters, Carsten Nicolai, Liam Gillick, Trilok Gurtu, Bora Youn, and others. The small fragment I've included here was written when I was in Antarctica earlier this year shooting a film about the sound of ice. > > > Check it out! > > Sound Unbound: edited by Paul D. Miller aka Dj Spooky > MIT Press 2008 > > www.soundunbound.com > > > Sound Unbound Audio Companion: Excerpts and Allegories from the Sub > Rosa Archives. > > There’s an old Latin phrase: “Ad acta” that I like to think about > when I think about Dj mix culture. When you translate it, it simply > means "to the archives." For the Romans, it was a way of saying that > values change – simply put, it means that something isn't true > anymore but once was. ”Form and function, fact and fiction: In an > era where there are more websites than human beings,… In an era > where humanity makes more information every year than almost all > previous eras combined… In an era where there is more information > than almost every star in the sky (if we bothered to count), music > means something different than it used to - it plays a different > role in our culture of fiber optic cables, wireless networks, and > satellite transmissions, than it’s more remote presence in history > before the advent of recorded media. Today, for me, music isn’t > music – it’s information. The material in this mix is an audio > companion to the anthology I edited with MIT Press of the same name. > It’s a summary of several years of work that looks at music as one > of the most immaterial of artforms. For me music and art are > inseparable – they are mirrors of one another. Software has changed > the way the we think about creativity – it’s reconfigured how we > even think of human presence. > The material on this “Sound Unbound” mix is an audio essay that > links artists as diverse as Marcel Duchamp, Vladimir Mayakovsky, > Antonin Artaud and Allen Ginsberg. It also foregrounds some issues > that I think the 21st century really needs to understand – art isn’t > about objects anymore. Art is a continuous investigation into > humanity’s place in the world, it gives us hope and tells us simply, > that another world is possible, I hope you listen to the mix and > think about it as another kind of text. A text that asks a simple, > yet deceptively complex question: where does the 20th century end > and the 21st century begin? Where do we draw the line between art > and objects, art and artifacts? The jazz musician Eric Dolphy once > infamously said “when you hear music, after its over, it’s gone, in > the air. You can never capture it again.” In the era of ubiquitous > computing the new vision of music is about omnipresence – the music > is everywhere. You just have to find it. I guess I’d say, like > Gothe, the “architecture is frozen music.” “Sound Unbound” reverse > engineers that statement to de-thaw the process. It asks: What > happens when music is liquid architecture? In these post modern > times, we’re faced with a kind of cultural landscape where almost > all aspects of meaning have come from a view point based on > relativity. “Ad acta:” I think of that phrase from thousands of > years ago, and wonder: what happens when you make all those old > records come to life again? Maybe that style of mixing is the > ultimate example of continuous renewal that Dj mix culture points > to. It says simply, that we always re-create and re-affirm human > life by playing with memory and time and space. That’s what sampling > is about. Alot of research went into the mix for this project, and I > hope the whimsical and somewhat paradoxical connections I draw with > the mix lead the listener to new meanings from old. Enjoy!!! > > > > Paul D. Miller, Antarctic Peninsula/New York 2008 From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 23:24:29 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 23:24:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Solving Amarnath: New Hope in Kashmir In-Reply-To: <884537.28263.qm@web53608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <47e122a70807020418o737c232l42c0b1b1e39de479@mail.gmail.com> <884537.28263.qm@web53608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6353c690807021054i6197ac7ao4ebd01863eef3cfa@mail.gmail.com> Murtaza and Inder are both just too dumb or are just trying to portray as too ignorant. What the Common Citizens of Jammu and outskirt areas have done; is being termed as "communal". It seems, rights, justice etc. all terms are only relevant for Muslims. Its sad to see the role of Govt. who have declared curfew in Jammu; while they helped in burning Kashmir from all sides. Its surely a plan to crush the protests of the silent majority. Yesterday, Sajad Lone in a TV Interview said, "Its our VICTORY in Kashmir". How chilish could he get on National Television. People get killed, communal tension on rise in Kashmir etc. and he says its a victory. Firecrackers were on in Kashmir yesterday late evening. However, Its surprising to see on the other hand that many NC, Congress and especially PDP Leaders from Jammu have been silently taking part in the protests against the Government. Media ofcourse has been blocking a lot of News from Jammu. Its very tense especially in areas dominated with Kashmiri Hindus including Camps like Muthi and Nagrota etc. Its strange by Police has only been firing in areas of Kashmiri Hindus like Muthi. More than 100 people are injured there. Today a temple was attacked and grenade was thrown by terrorists on a rally protesting against revocation of Land Transfer. 15 People including a CRPF Jawan are believed to be seriously injured in it. It only shows the mentality of the religious fundamentalists of the valley. And, proves where the fuel for fire was coming from in the valley. Governmnet of India has shown its impotency on ths issue already. And, still remains mute spectator. Fundamentalism is on rise by anti-national forces in the valley. Its a wake up call before it engulfs the rest of the country. The likes of Inder would continue their Secularism till they find themselves trapped in the violenet and bloody cause they supported. The Muslims Moderates have been subjected to house arrest by harliners in the valley. It only proves the great divide in the valley. Best... Aditya Raj Kaul ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Rahul Asthana Date: Jul 2, 2008 6:13 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Solving Amarnath: New Hope in Kashmir To: reader-list at sarai.net, inder salim Inder, Yes, of course, and then we can all ponder in leisure why BJP is making a communal issue of what is essentially environmental vigilantism;and also hope that BJP's communal politics will be diffused by calling it "real threat" and its politics "fraudulent" etc.. You have my best wishes. - --- On Wed, 7/2/08, inder salim wrote: > From: inder salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Solving Amarnath: New Hope in Kashmir > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 4:48 PM > now, the real threat is BJP > which is trying its best to manufacture Ayodhya like crises > for a > fradulent return to > power > > > > On 7/2/08, Kashmir Affairs > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Solving > > Amarnath: A New Hope in Kashmir > > > > > > Murtaza > > Shibli > > > > > > [www.kashmiraffairs.org] > > > > > > > > The bold decision of the Congress government > > led by Ghulam Nabi Azad in Srinagar must be commended. > By revoking the land > > order to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB) that > was illegal at the first > > place, Azad has not only shown great courage and > decision making skills to deal > > with a crisis that was spiralling out of control, a la > 1990, but also taken > > both the People's Democratic Party (PDP) and the > fledgling separatist movement of > > the Hurriyat Conference off the guard, who were using > the land issue to > > manipulate public mind. Though the order came late; it > has, however, not only > > diffused the crisis, but also shown for the first time > in recent decades, that a > > crisis in Kashmir could be solved through bold and > timely political action. It > > also demonstrates to the Kashmiris that by resorting > to non-violent action, > > there is a room for manoeuvre and things can be > changed through peaceful means. > > Baring few incidents of stone pelting and burning of > tyres, the massive > > demonstrations were totally peaceful, without any > involvement of the militant > > groups, and without any communal flavour despite > propaganda by various quarters > > including mainstream Indian media. Sadly, the state > response was not that peaceful; > > five innocent lives were lost during the ten day > demonstrations. However, by > > Kashmiri standards, it could be classified as measured > and therefore a change > > from previous years, when the paramilitary forces > would kill dozens on small or > > no provocations. Incidentally, this is first such > massive crisis in the last > > two decades that has been solved peacefully and > decisively, in public favour, taking > > everyone by surprise. > > > > > > > > > > > > Another very positive aspect that emerged > > from this stand-off is that the Pakistani government > maintained a studied > > silence on the issue, thus not only keeping the spirit > of reconciliation > > between the two countries alive, but also showing > maturity by not succumbing to > > the pressure from the traditional hawkish elements > within the establishment when > > the temptation was real. This also > > prevented any wild claims within the Indian government > or Hindu militants to > > blame Pakistan for a role in the crisis. Though, the > Pakistani silence > > irritated the United Jihad Council chief Syed > Salahudin, who called it as 'surprising', > > it was in the right spirit of peace that the two > countries have embarked upon. > > Successful dealing of the crisis demonstrated that if > the right and positive > > decisions are taken, keeping in view the aspirations > of the Kashmiri people, it > > is possible to deal with crises without involving > Pakistan. It also bought > > another stark point to the fore – that Pakistan is > not always involved in all > > the crisis in Kashmir; a paranoia that has swept > across the Indian > > establishment and offers an alibi to the politicians > and security establishment > > for their systemic or judgemental failures or biases. > > > > > > > > > > > > The peaceful outcome also shows that if the > > promises and commitments are followed in the right > spirit, there is a room for > > massive improvement in the situation without employing > more than half a million > > troops and two dozen secret agencies. If > > the promises like 'zero tolerance for human rights > violations' made by the > > Prime Minister Manmohan Singh more than two years ago > would have been observed, > > the Kashmiri population would not have felt so > distanced or disconnected from > > the peace process that is now running in the fifth > year. In addition, the economic > > development of the Kashmir valley suffers massively > either due to the massive > > presence of the Army and paramilitary forces or the > unspent millions that lye > > wasted in the government coffers mainly due to the > political rivalry between > > the coalition partners – People's Democratic > Party (PDP) and Congress; the > > tussle added vitriol to fire caused by the current > crisis, as the PDP tried to > > capitalise on it despite being an equal partner in > 'crime'. > > > > > > > > > > > > In a classic act of political opportunism, the > > PDP that was part of the cabinet decision that allowed > the illegal transfer of > > land to the SASB, decided to withdraw the support and > blame its coalition > > partner Congress for the whole issue. Only days ago, > Kashmir's Forest Minister, > > Qazi Mohammad Afzal, who belongs to the PDP openly > boasted about his role in > > effecting the land transfer. But when the public > reaction grew, the PDP not > > only withdrew support, but also issued public > statements that sounded like > > racial epithets designed to inflame the public opinion > and hence provoke and enlarge > > the constituency of protests and violence. > > > > > > > > > > > > The use of religion for political ends is not > > new in south Asia. Mufti Mohammad Sayeed, the patron > of PDP, has previously also > > been accused of creating communal tensions for his > electoral gains. In 1986, > > during his time as Congress chief of Jammu and > Kashmir, Mufti Sayeed allegedly engineered > > communal riots against the Kashmiri Pandits in > Anantnag district in which half > > a dozen temples and homes of Hindus were damaged. This > afforded Congress a > > plausible reason to withdraw support from fledgling > Ghulam Mohammad Shah government, > > which was manufactured through defections from the > National Conference at the > > first place courtesy of Mufti Sayeed. Later, in 1990, > when the massive public demonstrations > > engulfed the Kashmir Valley, Mufti, as the Home > Minister in the VP Singh government > > deliberately sent Jagmohan as governor makingit > difficult for Farooq Abdullah > > government to function. Farooq resigned and Jagmohan > got a free ride employing state > > terror that gave rise to massive militancy – a > phenomenon that still costs > > lives in Kashmir. Perhaps Mufti Sayeed was wishing to > witness the repeat of > > 1990 to feed his insatiable desire for power, but the > timely action by the Azad > > government diffused the situation successfully, > leaving him lost and vulnerable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Buoyed by the success and free from the > > fetters of PDP conditionality, the Azad government has > a huge task ahead. The > > winter capital of the state, Jammu, has been virtually > taken over by the Hindu militant > > groups who have been attacking the government > buildings, offices of the > > political parties and threatening economic blockade of > the Kashmiri Valley. The > > government should not only deal with situation wisely, > but also make sure that > > no anti-Kashmiri rhetoric or action is allowed that > will feed into the agenda > > of extremist vision of a civilisational clash. It is > hoped that all the political > > parties will discard electoral opportunism and mount > joint efforts to initiate > > serious peace efforts. The successful handling of > Kashmir's current crisis > > offers a hope and a chance for the Congress government > at the Centre to build > > on this bold decision and work towards a final and > durable solution of the > > problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > The writer is a security analyst based > > in London. He is also editor of quarterly journal > Kashmir Affairs and > > webportal www.kashmiraffairs.org > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Not happy with your email address?. > > Get the one you really want - millions of new email > addresses available now at Yahoo! > http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 00:32:11 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 00:32:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: ARE YOU ANGRY? Message-ID: <6353c690807021202l4c22b9abtcb9b77f1f83229d5@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: kamal hak Date: Jul 2, 2008 4:07 PM Subject: *KPNetwork* ARE YOU ANGRY? To: *ARE YOU ANGRY?* "Are you angry?" A journalist asked me yesterday. She was doing a story on Kashmiri Pandit reaction to Amarnath. This morning a friend calls me up from Jammu to inform about curfew in whole of Jammu city. After exchanging pleasantries and commenting on the recent events we snap the line. Suddenly, the journalist's face comes in my mind and I find her repeating the question, "Are you angry?" I sit on a couch and ask the same question to my own self. Thousands of people took to streets in Kashmir and paralyzed the whole life there for nearly a week. Watching them on the TV screens and the newspapers, I could see them belonging to various political hues and colours. I thought these marauders represented all shades of political opinion in Kashmir. If some one subscribed to the fundamentalist ideology, there was some one else representing the separatist agenda. And standing besides them shoulders with shoulder were the people believing in mainstream politics. Reading the national press and watching the electronic channels, I find them totally blind to the underlying current behind the protests in Kashmir. Amazingly, national media's obsession with Hindu fundamentalism is starkly visible everywhere. Nobody wants to see two fundamental factors behind the latest uprising in Kashmir. One, the protests are reflection of Kashmiri people being bound by a common fundamentalist ideology irrespective of their political faith and two, the continuation of their determination to deny any space to Hindus. Nobody in Indian media wants to understand that these protests were not per see against the allotment of land to Shrine board. The flare up was essentially against the intolerable reality of having a flourishing Hindu institution in Islamic Kashmir. Total curfew in Jammu and I see a sinister design behind that. How come a nationalistic secular government of Jammu and Kashmir allowed the situation in Kashmir to flare up to such an extent that the place once again came to the center stage of world media? And how come the same government denies the same right of expression to the people of Jammu? For me conclusions are simple. The government covertly assisted the Muslim flare up in Kashmir and wants to suppress the Hindu sentiment in Jammu. Am I angry? Yes I am. But, I peep inside me and ask once again. "Angry against whom? Am I angry against the majority community in Kashmir, who failed to protest a harmless minority? Am I angry at them for proclaiming to be custodians of Kashmiriat, which is not based on the traditional Kashmiri ethos of tolerance but dictated by the constructed idealism of religious bigotry? Or am I angry at the national polity for deliberately neglecting me for last eighteen years only because I do not have the numbers to fill their ballot boxes? Am I angry at the national intelligentsia for always seeing wolf in expression of facts, which show the religious fundamentalists in their true colours?" "Am I angry at myself for failing to stir the national consciousness?" I saw the outcome of very well publicized protest rally last Sunday. I have just received a SMS informing me about another protest at 5 PM today. I know how many people will be there. Yes, admitting I am angry would be an understatement. There is a volcano burning deep inside my heart and I want it to erupt. But I am constantly suppressing it. The flowing lava will require a significant numbers to hold it in direction and propel its pressure into a defining and decisive result. I don't have such numbers. Neither among my country men nor is my community prepared to provide me those. I better not be angry. Orzu. Kamal Hak *"Zuv Shum Braman Ghara Gassa Ha"* - ------------------------------ Explore your hobbies and interests. Click here to begin. __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages ************************************************** Disclaimer: Views and opinions expressed herein are solely those of the persons posting the mail and not of the Owner/Moderator of this YahooGroup. 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ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest| Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Recent Activity - 1 New Members Visit Your Group Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more. Cat Groups on Yahoo! Groups discuss everything related to cats. Curves on Yahoo! A group for women to share & discuss food & weight loss. . __,_._,___ From yasir.media at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 02:33:48 2008 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?WINDOWS-1256?Q?yasir_~=ED=C7_=D3=D1?=) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 14:03:48 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] SAJA Forum Interview of Pakistani Barrister Aitzaz Ahsan In-Reply-To: <1cca3d5b-8ae3-4a7d-9891-1336800466fe@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> References: <1cca3d5b-8ae3-4a7d-9891-1336800466fe@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0807021403r1468f596n70a3c9bd3886dc95@mail.gmail.com> note: ** ** Q. 3. What is your impression of the response to the Lawyers' Movement by lawyers, bar associations and civil society in India? Has it been like the response by lawyers and bar associations here in the United States? AITZAZ AHSAN: I think it has been insignificant. I don't know why, but it has been quite insignificant. ** ** ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Justice Media Date: Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 5:31 AM Subject: SAJA Forum Interview of Pakistani Barrister Aitzaz Ahsan To: Report Press - The REPORT PRESS - Special Reports Media - USA - Chief Editor: Journalist SYED ADEEB - http://www.SyedAdeeb.net -- http://www.ReportPress.com ================================================== SAJA Forum Interview of Pakistani Barrister Aitzaz Ahsan PAKISTAN - Five Questions For Aitzaz Ahsan http://www.sajaforum.org/2008/07/pakistan-five-q.html By ANIL KALHAN NEW YORK, USA, 1 July 2008 (SAJAforum) - This morning, Barrister-at- Law Aitzaz Ahsan, the President of the Supreme Court Bar Association of Pakistan (SCBAP) and the leader of Pakistan's 'lawyers' movement', spoke to a large audience at the New York City Bar Association (NYCBA) about the lawyers' movement, the importance of an independent judiciary and the role of U.S. policy in Pakistan's judicial crisis. During the past year, the New York City Bar has played an active role in support of Pakistan's lawyers and judges - organizing a solidarity rally with other area bar associations after General Pervez Musharraf imposed "Emergency" rule in November 2007, issuing a statement strongly urging Musharraf to restore the rule of law, and awarding an honorary membership, one of the organization's highest honors, to Pakistan Supreme Court Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry. In his remarks, Ahsan thanked U.S. lawyers and bar associations for their "unstinting support for constitutionalism, rule of law and reinstatement of an independent judiciary in Pakistan." He said that last November's rally - which drew hundreds of New York lawyers to the steps of the courthouse in lower Manhattan - "was an unprecedented collective action and it was noticed throughout Pakistan." Ahsan expressed his view that "what has endeared the people of America to the people of Pakistan, despite the adversarial policies of the American administration, has been the support of the bar associations." Following his address at the New York City Bar, Ahsan briefly talked to SAJAforum about the lawyers' movement, the prospects for reinstatement of the judges ousted by Musharraf and the role of Pakistan's media: Q. 1. There has been much speculation about what caused General Musharraf to try to dismiss the Chief Justice of Pakistan [Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry] back in March 2007. What do you think caused him to take that step? AITZAZ AHSAN: I think that Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz poisoned Musharraf's ears after the Steel Mills Case, which was a judgment that was an indictment of the Prime Minister. After the Supreme Court decided that case, people started saying - including myself in speeches in the National Assembly - that the Prime Minister could be indicted and ought to be indicted. So there is some evidence of the fact that Shaukat Aziz began to advise Musharraf to fire the Chief Justice [Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry] and played on his fear that the Chief Justice was going to decide against him in his bid to be the President for another term. So I think it was mainly this, a paranoia that was created in Musharraf's mind by Shaukat Aziz. Q. 2. In the past, most Supreme Court justices in Pakistan have cooperated with military coup leaders and even have sought to legitimize military takeovers in their judicial decisions. What do you think has made this moment different and caused so many judges to react differently this time? AITZAZ AHSAN: I think it was the inspiration that they got - that everyone got, that the entire country got - from the refusal on the 9th of March [2007] by the Chief Justice to surrender his discretion or to succumb to the pressure exerted upon him by five [Pakistan Army] generals. I think that was the most inspirational moment in this entire movement. And that had kind of a carryover momentum which inspired more judges on the 3rd of November [2007] to refuse to capitulate [when Musharraf imposed "Emergency" rule]. The lawyers' movement in Pakistan is unprecedented. In South Asian history, there has never been a movement like this, sustained over 16 months now, more than a year. And for both lawyers and judges, it has been the inspiration provided by one individual that has made it happen. As [China Communist Party] Chairman Mao Zedong said: A single spark can set an entire prairie on fire. Q. 3. What is your impression of the response to the Lawyers' Movement by lawyers, bar associations and civil society in India? Has it been like the response by lawyers and bar associations here in the United States? AITZAZ AHSAN: I think it has been insignificant. I don't know why, but it has been quite insignificant. Q. 4. Publicly and officially, the Bush Administration has been largely silent about the issues surrounding Pakistan's judiciary, typically stating that it regards those issues as an "internal matter." But there also have been reports indicating that some Administration officials may have an affirmative desire to keep the Chief Justice and the other judges removed by Musharraf from being reinstated. What is your sense of what the Bush Administration's actual position is on these issues? AITZAZ AHSAN: I have a sense that the American administration would like the judges not to be restored. Although I believe this position was originally intended not to embarrass Pervez Musharraf, I think that now that position has solidified and that Pervez Musharraf himself is not as relevant as the fear of these independent judges. Even the Americans seem to believe that independent judges may not be good for their interests in Pakistan - which is a convoluted logic, which is absolutely illogical, but I think that they now believe as much. Q. 5. The media in Pakistan has played a powerful role in covering the events of the past year. Ironically, Musharraf has rather successfully conveyed the impression that he has actually been the one responsible for opening up Pakistan's media. What is your reaction to that? AITZAZ AHSAN: Well, first of all, the media has played a very significant and important role. Second, the gift of free media is not Musharraf's gift; it is technology. There is no way you can keep the free media out. If you keep the free media out, there will be satellite [TV] channels and other channels that people will begin to watch. So it's not out of any love for free media. It's out of the fact that there cannot now, in this day and age, be a blackout of the media. So if things will be watched by the people on other channels anyway - from Indian [TV] channels, for instance - it's safer for the [Pakistan] Government to have Pakistani [TV] channels and to be able to influence those channels. And the [Pakistan] Government still does influence the Pakistani [TV] channels. They knock out [TV] programs that are critical, as has happened recently on [Pakistani Urdu] Geo Television [Capital Talk show, moderated by Journalist Hamid Mir]. New York City Bar Event Detail: Pakistani Leader to Give Update on Judicial Independence in Pakistan Tuesday, July 1, 2008 - Breakfast, 8:45 a.m. - Program, 9:00 a.m. Aitzaz Ahsan, President of Pakistan's Supreme Court Bar Association and "Lawyers' Movement" leader, will speak on the situation in Pakistan, particularly with regard to judicial independence and efforts to reinstate members of the judiciary in Pakistan, including Chief Justice [Iftikhar Muhammad] Chaudhry. (1) BBC English and Urdu News About Pakistani Barrister-at-Law Aitzaz Ahsan's June-July 2008 Visit to Washington DC and New York, USA http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7483792.stm http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/story/2008/06/080627_aitzaz_ahsan.shtml (2) NYCBA HONORARY MEMBERSHIP BESTOWED UPON PAKISTAN CHIEF JUSTICE IFTIKHAR MUHAMMAD CHAUDHRY http://www.nycbar.org/PressRoom/PressRelease/2008_0114.htm (3) Letter of NYCBA President Barry M. Kamins to Tyrant Musharraf http://www.nycbar.org/pdf/report/0446_001.pdf (4) Lahore High Court Verdict Against Former Pakistan Prime Minister Muhammad Nawaz Sharif Threatens To Split Ruling PPP-PMLN Coalition http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/jul2008/pak-j01.shtml (5) The U.S. and Wild West are Still Conspiring to Break Pakistan: Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan http://www.dictatorshipwatch.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=5139 - -- http://www.dictatorshipwatch.com - -- http://www.pakistanweekly.com - -- http://www.insaf.pk - -- http://pakistan.ahrchk.net ================================================== For more news, views, ideas and information, READ: 1. Journalist SYED ADEEB: http://www.SyedAdeeb.com 2. ADEEB PRESS: http://www.AdeebPress.com 3. ADEEB MEDIA: http://www.AdeebMedia.com 4. INFORMATION PRESS: http://www.InformPress.com 5. The REPORT PRESS: http://www.ReportPress.com 6. HRF: http://www.justiceforum.info 7. PJF: http://justiceforum.wordpress.com/pjf 8. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/justiceforum 9. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/informpress 10. http://groups.google.com/group/reportpress ReportPress.com Newsletter Publication Date: Wednesday, 2 July 2008. Publisher: REPORT PRESS - Special Reports Media - www.ReportPress.com - U.S.A. ================================================== - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ NOTE: To Read, Subscribe or Unsubscribe to the ReportPress.com Web- Email Newsletter based in the USA, click this newsletter's website link: - http://groups.google.com/group/reportpress -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- From pkray11 at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 08:36:19 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 08:36:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Panel Discussion on Nuclear Deal and National Interest. Message-ID: <98f331e00807022006h61a1da9dyffe669e8d9ea87af@mail.gmail.com> *Please attend the following meeting on the Nuke Deal.* ** *Regards,* *Prakash K Ray* *----------------- * *Anveshan Invites all for a Panel Discussion on Nuclear Deal and National Interest Panelists Achin Vanaik, Professor of Political Science, Delhi University Brahma Chellaney, Professor of Strategic Studies, Centre for Policy Research B.S.Chimni, Professor of International Law, JNU Kamal Mitra Chenoy, Professor of International Studies, JNU Prabir Purkayastha, Energy Analyst, Delhi Science Forum Seema Mustafa, Senior Journalist, COVERT Moderator Paranjoy Guha Thakurta, Director, School of Convergence Monday, 7th July 2008, 3.00 PM Muktadhara Auditorium, Banga Sanskriti Bhawan 18-19 Bhai Vir Singh Marg, New Delhi (Near Gole Market)* From rashneek at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 10:08:23 2008 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 10:08:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Solving Amarnath: New Hope in Kashmir In-Reply-To: <47e122a70807020418o737c232l42c0b1b1e39de479@mail.gmail.com> References: <632009.16867.qm@web27803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <252538.76398.qm@web27804.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <47e122a70807020418o737c232l42c0b1b1e39de479@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13df7c120807022138s446a3289k98f59b99bfda1c2a@mail.gmail.com> Inder Salim lives in what Anandvardhana the great Kashmiri Scholar,on his treatise on Rasa Sutra called The Wilfull Susupension of Disbelief... On 7/2/08, inder salim wrote: > > now, the real threat is BJP > which is trying its best to manufacture Ayodhya like crises for a > fradulent return to > power > > > > On 7/2/08, Kashmir Affairs wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Solving > > Amarnath: A New Hope in Kashmir > > > > > > Murtaza > > Shibli > > > > > > [www.kashmiraffairs.org] > > > > > > > > The bold decision of the Congress government > > led by Ghulam Nabi Azad in Srinagar must be commended. By revoking the > land > > order to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB) that was illegal at the > first > > place, Azad has not only shown great courage and decision making skills > to deal > > with a crisis that was spiralling out of control, a la 1990, but also > taken > > both the People's Democratic Party (PDP) and the fledgling separatist > movement of > > the Hurriyat Conference off the guard, who were using the land issue to > > manipulate public mind. Though the order came late; it has, however, not > only > > diffused the crisis, but also shown for the first time in recent decades, > that a > > crisis in Kashmir could be solved through bold and timely political > action. It > > also demonstrates to the Kashmiris that by resorting to non-violent > action, > > there is a room for manoeuvre and things can be changed through peaceful > means. > > Baring few incidents of stone pelting and burning of tyres, the massive > > demonstrations were totally peaceful, without any involvement of the > militant > > groups, and without any communal flavour despite propaganda by various > quarters > > including mainstream Indian media. Sadly, the state response was not that > peaceful; > > five innocent lives were lost during the ten day demonstrations. However, > by > > Kashmiri standards, it could be classified as measured and therefore a > change > > from previous years, when the paramilitary forces would kill dozens on > small or > > no provocations. Incidentally, this is first such massive crisis in the > last > > two decades that has been solved peacefully and decisively, in public > favour, taking > > everyone by surprise. > > > > > > > > > > > > Another very positive aspect that emerged > > from this stand-off is that the Pakistani government maintained a studied > > silence on the issue, thus not only keeping the spirit of reconciliation > > between the two countries alive, but also showing maturity by not > succumbing to > > the pressure from the traditional hawkish elements within the > establishment when > > the temptation was real. This also > > prevented any wild claims within the Indian government or Hindu militants > to > > blame Pakistan for a role in the crisis. Though, the Pakistani silence > > irritated the United Jihad Council chief Syed Salahudin, who called it as > 'surprising', > > it was in the right spirit of peace that the two countries have embarked > upon. > > Successful dealing of the crisis demonstrated that if the right and > positive > > decisions are taken, keeping in view the aspirations of the Kashmiri > people, it > > is possible to deal with crises without involving Pakistan. It also > bought > > another stark point to the fore – that Pakistan is not always involved in > all > > the crisis in Kashmir; a paranoia that has swept across the Indian > > establishment and offers an alibi to the politicians and security > establishment > > for their systemic or judgemental failures or biases. > > > > > > > > > > > > The peaceful outcome also shows that if the > > promises and commitments are followed in the right spirit, there is a > room for > > massive improvement in the situation without employing more than half a > million > > troops and two dozen secret agencies. If > > the promises like 'zero tolerance for human rights violations' made by > the > > Prime Minister Manmohan Singh more than two years ago would have been > observed, > > the Kashmiri population would not have felt so distanced or disconnected > from > > the peace process that is now running in the fifth year. In addition, the > economic > > development of the Kashmir valley suffers massively either due to the > massive > > presence of the Army and paramilitary forces or the unspent millions that > lye > > wasted in the government coffers mainly due to the political rivalry > between > > the coalition partners – People's Democratic Party (PDP) and Congress; > the > > tussle added vitriol to fire caused by the current crisis, as the PDP > tried to > > capitalise on it despite being an equal partner in 'crime'. > > > > > > > > > > > > In a classic act of political opportunism, the > > PDP that was part of the cabinet decision that allowed the illegal > transfer of > > land to the SASB, decided to withdraw the support and blame its coalition > > partner Congress for the whole issue. Only days ago, Kashmir's Forest > Minister, > > Qazi Mohammad Afzal, who belongs to the PDP openly boasted about his role > in > > effecting the land transfer. But when the public reaction grew, the PDP > not > > only withdrew support, but also issued public statements that sounded > like > > racial epithets designed to inflame the public opinion and hence provoke > and enlarge > > the constituency of protests and violence. > > > > > > > > > > > > The use of religion for political ends is not > > new in south Asia. Mufti Mohammad Sayeed, the patron of PDP, has > previously also > > been accused of creating communal tensions for his electoral gains. In > 1986, > > during his time as Congress chief of Jammu and Kashmir, Mufti Sayeed > allegedly engineered > > communal riots against the Kashmiri Pandits in Anantnag district in which > half > > a dozen temples and homes of Hindus were damaged. This afforded Congress > a > > plausible reason to withdraw support from fledgling Ghulam Mohammad Shah > government, > > which was manufactured through defections from the National Conference at > the > > first place courtesy of Mufti Sayeed. Later, in 1990, when the massive > public demonstrations > > engulfed the Kashmir Valley, Mufti, as the Home Minister in the VP Singh > government > > deliberately sent Jagmohan as governor making it difficult for Farooq > Abdullah > > government to function. Farooq resigned and Jagmohan got a free ride > employing state > > terror that gave rise to massive militancy – a phenomenon that still > costs > > lives in Kashmir. Perhaps Mufti Sayeed was wishing to witness the repeat > of > > 1990 to feed his insatiable desire for power, but the timely action by > the Azad > > government diffused the situation successfully, leaving him lost and > vulnerable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Buoyed by the success and free from the > > fetters of PDP conditionality, the Azad government has a huge task ahead. > The > > winter capital of the state, Jammu, has been virtually taken over by the > Hindu militant > > groups who have been attacking the government buildings, offices of the > > political parties and threatening economic blockade of the Kashmiri > Valley. The > > government should not only deal with situation wisely, but also make sure > that > > no anti-Kashmiri rhetoric or action is allowed that will feed into the > agenda > > of extremist vision of a civilisational clash. It is hoped that all the > political > > parties will discard electoral opportunism and mount joint efforts to > initiate > > serious peace efforts. The successful handling of Kashmir's current > crisis > > offers a hope and a chance for the Congress government at the Centre to > build > > on this bold decision and work towards a final and durable solution of > the > > problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > The writer is a security analyst based > > in London. He is also editor of quarterly journal Kashmir Affairs and > > webportal www.kashmiraffairs.org > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Not happy with your email address?. > > Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available > now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From rashneek at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 10:11:02 2008 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 10:11:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindus save masjid in Akhnoor Message-ID: <13df7c120807022141h4bb40ac6x8bfc5f0e68fa3cb@mail.gmail.com> Jammu, July 2: Setting an example of communal harmony and brotherhood, the Hindu of Jorian village in Akhnoor saved Masjid from a protesting mob, who tried to throw stones on it, here Wednesday morning. Witnesses said that a group of protesters reached to village Jorian and tried to throw stones on the Masjid, but the local Hindus over powered them and did not allow them to harm the Masjid. "How we can allow any miscreant to harm this Masjid which has been constructed by our Muslim brothers" Anil Kumar told NAK adding that differences over the government decision could be there but we can not harm each other. However, the protesting mob left the village and the local Hindus threaten them of serious consequences if they again tried to do any such activity in the village. A prominent social worker from Jammu Sunita Bangotra has appealed people of the communities to maintain peace and tranquility. She appreciated the members of Hindu community who set an example of communal harmony by stopping some miscreants from stoning Masjid in Jorian area of Akhnoor. She said peace lies in communal harmony and those who wanted to gains vote bank should not play politics in the name of religion. Kishore Kumar, a local journalist told NAK that though the protesters tried to harm the Masjid but the local villagers stopped them. He said that this was the first time the Hindus are safe guarding the Muslim religious place in the area, adding the efforts of the members of the Hindu community were appreciated by number of the people who later assembled at the place. The Hindu community members later assured their Muslim brothers of every help in case they are targeted by the miscreants. http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=3_7_2008&ItemID=3&cat=21 -- Rashneek Kher Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From rashneek at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 10:18:39 2008 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 10:18:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shrouds of Kashmiriyat-by KN Pandita Message-ID: <13df7c120807022148u1e17c971nb92896d3dc643fcb@mail.gmail.com> *The real motive behind the violent protests in Kashmir is terrifyingly sinister* Recent events have once again exposed the much-touted 'secular' credentials of mainstream political parties in the Kashmir Valley. It would be incorrect to link the response of these parties to the Government's decision, which now stands cancelled, of temporarily allotting land to the Sri Amarnath Shrine Board to this year's Assembly election in Jammu & Kashmir. On hindsight, the PDP, a coalition partner in the Congress-led Government in the State till it pulled out on Saturday, has hardly been cooperative after it handed over power to the latter three years ago. Its performance during the first three years of the coalition's tenure hardly bears testimony to its claimed non-partisan style of governance. Under the guise of 'respect for the wishes of the people', the PDP has in the past blatantly played the pro-separatist card on issues such as demilitarisation of Jammu & Kashmir, joint regional council with Pakistan occupied Kashmir, inflow of Pakistani currency, lifting of all restrictions on trans-border movement, etc. Under the much-touted cover of providing a 'healing touch', militants were set free from prisons by the PDP. They were given financial and other forms of support without eliciting their commitment of laying down arms and joining the national mainstream. In doing so, PDP patron Mufti Mohammed Saeed has created a formidable constituency on which he and his party now bank. It is inadvisable to treat the ongoing phenomenon as either a political manoeuvre or a sadist desire on part of the PDP to pull down the Congress-led Government. The motive is far deeper than that. The statements issued by the PDP chief Mehbooba Mufti and the Mufti himself show that Kashmiri leaders of all hues have forged a common understanding among themselves to fight Indian presence in the Valley along with Pakistan-sponsored outfits. The statements of National Conference leaders, Mr Farooq Abdullah and Mr Omar Abdullah, have brought little solace to the tense situation that prevails in the Valley. Curiously, Mr Omar Abdullah has described the anti-Government demonstrations as an expression of "Kashmiri nationalism". He has thus drawn a line between Indian nationalism and Kashmir nationalism. In other words providing for Haj complexes in various parts of the country is 'Indian nationalism' and denying Amarnath pilgrims some relief facilities is 'Kashmiri nationalism'. The people in the Valley have to understand that politicians are manipulating their religious feelings under the garb of 'Kashmiri nationalism'. This is a new approach to the old practice of whipping up religious sentiments at the time of Assembly elections. The National Conference is notorious for brandishing green handkerchiefs and rock salt in its election rallies. These have now been replaced by slogans promoting 'Kashmiri nationalism'. Incidentally, the ideology of Kashmiriyat, to which the Kashmiri political leadership and intelligentsia have stuck tenaciously for more than two decades, has also revealed its true colours. In April, Ali Shah Geelani, the veteran separatist leader, while speaking at a public rally in Sopor, said it was a fallacy to label Nund rishi as an outstanding *rishi* or sufi saint of 14th century. He said Sheikh Nooru'd-Din (not Nund Rishi) was a zealous Muslim missionary who contributed enormously to the spread of Islamic culture and faith in the Valley during his time. Contemporary Kashmiri historians have now joined Mr Geelani's voice. Those who were till the other day brandishing Kashmiriyat as a manifestation of Kashmir's sense of communal harmony and peaceful co-existence, are now rejecting Kashmiriyat as a mischievous attempt by Indians to impose 'cultural hegemony' on Jammu & Kashmir. The current row over allotment of land to the Sri Amarnath Shrine Board has shown that the majority of Kashmiri leaders believes that secessionist struggle should be carried out by political parties in a manner that is subtle and an erosion of Indian presence in Kashmir should be effected. This should serve as a warning to the Indian political leaders that something serious could happen once elections are held in October and the Assembly sits down to do business. It should expect no quarter from any of the mainstream political parties, including the State Congress in the Valley. New Delhi would also be well advised to think of the dangers inherent in the policy of divide and rule. That lesson should have been learnt long ago when the conspiracy of replacing Mr Farooq Abdullah with Mr GM Shah was masterminded. Jammu & Kashmir's political situation has come to a critical point. Any mishandling, any unrealistic and euphoric response to the situation will be fraught with the gravest of consequences. -- *The writer is the former Director of the Centre of Central Asian Studies, Kashmir University.* -- Rashneek Kher Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 11:19:09 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 11:19:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra In-Reply-To: <632009.16867.qm@web27803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <48c2916d0806301000u1c969e3ft44e1c83094d49ab7@mail.gmail.com> <632009.16867.qm@web27803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6353c690807022249r2ca787c6q967c8dd1418d5f86@mail.gmail.com> Murtaza may like to add this as well. Kashmiri Muslim Terrorists have an old practice of disrupting the Yatra as well. In the past years we have seen this openly, how Yatri's have got injured in attacks and even killed. This time the media somehow is blocking the news outside Jammu in national papers. Kashmiri Muslims who have been brainwashed and this is just a small segment; have been disrupting the Yatra on and off. Yesterday alone, 15 Pilgrims were injured in these attacks. It only shows the love they have for the Pilgrims...Isn't it ? The reality is Muslims are shit scared. They don't want laks of Hindu Pilgrims to visit Amarnath every year. Its high time they wake up. The common citizens of this country won't tollerate this fundamentalism and communal attitude. Aditya On 7/2/08, Kashmir Affairs wrote: > > Aarthi, > Kashmiri Muslims offering food and shelter to the yatris is old practice. I > will give you one example in recent times. When in 1996 due to unseasonal > blizzards and uncontrollable number of yatris [70,000 on one day by some > accounts], the yatris were stranded for nearly a week. > People in Islamabad [Anantnag] made free langers at Nai Basti, Sarnal, > Kadipora, Khanabal, Anchidora, Mattan and Che and sheltered thousands of > yatris in their homes, shops and even mosques. In Che, there was a small > incident which i thought was funny, when the yatris thanking god for thier > safety started shouting 'bolo amarnath ki jai' while housed in mosque. > However, Yatris were not thrown out of the mosque, though some people > questioned the practice while others laughed. > As a child we used to stand on the either side of road in Kadipora greeting > walking yatris with 'babu ji sitaram'..... Certainly those days yatra was > peaceful and a very low key affair. But now as any religion is marketed and > branded, Amarnath Yatra has fallen to it as well. > > Murtaza Shibli > www.kashmiraffairs.org > > --- On Mon, 30/6/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > From: Aarti Sethi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: "sarai list" <> > Date: Monday, 30 June, 2008, 6:00 PM > > Apropos this, today's express or TOI I forget which has a story on Kashmiri > Muslim's setting up food stalls and rest houses for stranded pilgrims. > Several pilgrims were housed in people's homes when they discovered they > had > nowhere to stay. On being asked they said this was nothing new and that the > local Muslim community had been hosting poilgrims for the lat hundred years > and they saw no reason to change this tradition despite the current fracas > over land allotment. So I would suggest Pavan that you excercise a little > restraint before you make intemperate remarks about intolerance. > > best > A > > On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 9:57 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > wrote: > s://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > __________________________________________________________ > Not happy with your email address?. > Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now > at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 11:41:54 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 11:41:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Grenade blast ups tension in Jammu Message-ID: <6353c690807022311k197c7ac6k31ebacd65f04b08c@mail.gmail.com> ** ** *Grenade blast ups tension in Jammu* 3 Jul 2008, 0131 hrs IST,TNN *JAMMU/SRINAGAR:* J&K Chief Minister Gulam Nabi Azad's assembly constituency, Bhaderwah, in Doda region of Jammu was on the boil on Wednesday after terrorists threw a hand grenade on a BJP protest rally killing a person and injuring three CRPF personnel and two civilians. Soon communal clashes flared up with groups of people supporting and opposing the land transfer to the Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board (SASB) clashing at a number of places, forcing Bhaderwah administration to deploy Army and impose an indefinite curfew. Doda DM Khurshid Ahmad Butt said: "We are keeping a watch on the situation. The curfew is to keep things under control." The terrorists targeted the procession comprising 400 people when it was returning to Laxmi Narayan Temple at Bhaderwah. Four critically injured people have been airlifted to Jammu. Curfew was also clamped at Samba in Kistwar area of Jammu region following communal clashes. Later, Army jawans took out a flag march. A mob also set on fire at least five mud houses. About 20 people were injured. Elsewhere in Jammu region, more than 50 people were hurt as the winter capital of Jammu and Kashmir witnessed more violence and arson on the third day of Jammu bandh on Wednesday against Amarnath land revocation. At least 10 people were injured as protesters fought pitched battles with cops across Jammu town defying the curfew the second consecutive day. Police fired in Muthi area after a lathicharge failed to disperse protesters. Locals and Kashmiri Pandits from camps in Muthi, Purkhoo and Nagrota held rallies and blocked Jammu-Poonch and Jammu-Srinagar highways. The protesters also demonstrated outside the residences of Congress MP Madan Lal Sharma and J&K minister Mula Ram. They also tried to attack Dogra Law College and Dogra Higher Secondary School at Shastri Nagar owned by state minister G C Charak. Both the ministers belonged to Congress. They also burned effigies of governor N N Vohra, CM Ghulam Nabi Azad and PDP patron Mufti Mohammad Sayeed. Over 70 people were arrested across the region. Meanwhile, Amarnath Yatra Action Committee has questioned how the governor, who is also the ex-officio SASB chairman, could revoke the land transfer order without taking any board member into confidence. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 11:44:41 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 11:44:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits hold protests in Delhi Message-ID: <6353c690807022314g7676ab6cp72955e49d1283801@mail.gmail.com> Kashmiri Pandits hold protests in Delhi *New Delhi, July 2 (IANS)* Hundreds of Kashmiri Hindus, settled in the national capital, Wednesday took to the streets, slamming police firing on innocent demonstrators during protests in Jammu region over the cancellation of land transfer to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB). The demonstrators alleged the Jammu and Kashmir government was "hand in glove with the separatists". About 500 protesters under the banner of "Roots in Kashmir", a global initiative of the Kashmiri Pandits, along with other organisations like Panun Kashmir and Kashmiri Samiti Delhi, burned tyres and shouted slogans. They criticised Governor N.N. Vohra, Chief Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad and People's Democratic Party (PDP) leader Mufti Mohammed Sayeed for the decision. *Please check more on - **http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/* Thanks Aditya Raj Kaul From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 11:52:48 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:52:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Letter to the editor Message-ID: Dear All, Pasting below a letter to the editor from the Kashmir Observer. This is the spirit of generosity that has been absent in the entire debate/fight/war on the land transfer issue. Best Sj ------------------- Dear Editor, My humble greetings. I write to you as a brother of Islam and a fellow human being. The mockery of religion and politics that is unfolding in the Valley brings me to shame. As disturbing as this charade is, perhaps more disheartening is the fact that a small gesture offering comfort to people has been mauled into a grotesque show of power and threat. I fail to understand how this can happen and am afraid to ask why. My conscience is unable to accept the answer. I ask you, sir, what has happened to compassion towards fellow human beings, as directed by our Prophet Mohammad? Can't we show a little consideration for people on a pilgrimage? Jammu and Kashmir belong to a free, democratic country. Then why this chaining of basic human right? Aren't providing amenities a fundamental duty of any government? Why drag a sacred entity like religion into this matter? The Haj is a sacred pilgrimage for you and me. I would like to see every Muslim going on the Haj, comfortable on his commune with God. Won't our Hindu brothers and sisters going on the Amarnath Yatra require the same consideration? These pilgrims don't even have hygienic toilet arrangements, medical facilities and a roof over their heads. Can't we extend some compassion towards them? Creating a hue and cry by political parties is irresponsible and ignorant. Misguiding young minds by claiming that 'Islam is in danger'. The real danger is when we forget the teachings of our Prophet. Lets safeguard the true tenets of Islam by standing up of the rights of our fellow human beings. Lets urge the centre to stop all grants to Jammu and Kashmir until the human rights of every individual ­ irrespective of caste and creed ­ are safeguarded. I urge you to spread the message of Allah, of peace and compassion. Lets each raise a voice against this atrocity. Faizal Sheikh on email From rahulpandita at yahoo.com Thu Jul 3 12:20:51 2008 From: rahulpandita at yahoo.com (Rahul Pandita) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 23:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Geelani's shit and Hindu "hit" Message-ID: <662838.53541.qm@web31707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Every morning, Syed Ali Geelani sits on a white porcelain commode, probably imported from Saudi Arabia. His shit, full of anti-India sentiments, travels through pipes to the Wular Lake in his hometown Sopore, in Kashmir, and contributes, on a daily basis, to the shrinking of what used to be Asia’s largest fresh water body. Over the years, Geelani’s morning ritual has been responsible for shrinking the lake area from 202 square kilometres to 30 square kilometres. In Srinagar, meanwhile, his other colleagues, who have been on the streets to force the cancellation of land allotment to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board, citing ecological reasons among others, do the needful with the Dal lake, adding their bit to the 35 million litres of sewage, which is pumped daily into the lake. On top of it, they run houseboats, where clueless Indian families bite into succulent Goshtaba and get photos clicked in traditional Kashmiri attire. Together with the government and a former Governor, the Geelanis of Kashmir have turned our sentiments into a Draupadi, each party gambling with a loaded dice. Last year, it was powdered ice. On television, they showed the Governor’s men, with their boots on, inside the sanctum sanctorum, enhancing the size of Shivling as if it were a female model in dire need of a silicon implant. Then, this year, we were shown visuals of an artificial, marble Shivling being made in Udaipur, Rajasthan which, we were told, would be put inside to enable the piligrims to have a “complete darshan.” To hell with you all! You think, people are spending money on their Kashmir travel and they have to have a “paisa vasool” through the darshan of a full-size, artificial Shivling. For you, a visit to Amarnath may be picnic. For us, it’s a way of life. My early memories of our tryst with Shiva come from an aunt who would, every morning, sing Ateebheeshan katubhashan, Yama kinkar patli…, her eyes brimming with tears, begging Shiv to be present when the Yama took her to another world. It meant decorating Shiv as a bridegroom, with silver foil and bel patra, every Shivratri, when snow would reach till our bedroom window. It meant that dream which my father saw as a young man with a new job, in which Shiv appeared and guided him through some confusing office accounts. It means my sister trying to explain to her friends: “We are Shaivites.” So, you see, I don’t care whether you get that land or not. I don’t care for your darshan as well. But please, leave that Shivling alone. Yesterday, in an Indian Express photo, Rajnath Singh was caught offering a ladoo to Venkaiah Naidu. Both men could not hide their glee. In the election season, they couldn’t have asked for more. On NDTV, they are showing five men and a woman in Jammu – BJP supporters – wearing Vaishno Devi bandanas, shouting slogans for the benefit of cameras. “Jo Hindu hit ki baat karega, wo hi desh pe raaj karega” The woman almost looks like the one in Jammu’s Bakshi Nagar, who washed the walls of her cowshed with cheap distemper, and offered it to my uncle’s family for renting, immediately after our migration from the valley in 1990. Of course, after almost two decades, we are welcome in Kashmir. Last year, they even allowed the Janamashtami procession. So, as long as we come for a weekend trip, stay in a hotel or a houseboat, buy carpets and shawls as souvenirs for family and friends, we are most welcome. But what about our houses? Our jobs? Our orchards? Errr… you see, Pandit ji, we cannot guarantee your safety. The Afghanis don’t spare us, either. So, you please stay in Jammu. We will come and visit you. And, of course, you have your ration cards. Pandit ji, you must be a little optimistic. Jammu is not that bad. Now you even have replicas of Kshir Bhawani and Hari Parbat. I must leave now… for Islamabad… sorry, Anantnag. Meanwhile, 290 kilometres away from Jammu, as those yellow Border Road Organisation milestones would tell you, a man, a free man, sits on a Kashmiri carpet, beside a hookah, tearing apart choicest pieces of lamb. His name is Farooq Ahmad Dar. You know him very well. He is also called Bitta Karate. Rahul Pandita www.sanitysucks.blogspot.com Mobile: 9818088664 __________________________________________________________ Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html From rashneek at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 12:21:28 2008 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 12:21:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Geelani Shit and Hindu Hit Message-ID: <13df7c120807022351p33b3836eq1a5f15f34327d32c@mail.gmail.com> I am taking the liberty of posting,my friend Rahul Pandita's post Geelani Shit and Hindu Hit It is here Best Regards -- Rashneek Kher Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From rashneek at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 12:29:22 2008 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 12:29:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Letter to the editor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13df7c120807022359h69e6ac35of4beb194dec6a5ab@mail.gmail.com> Dear Sonia, This gentleman must be a chip of the old block.Though I still vouch that an individual Kashmiri Muslim is more generous than his Pandit counterpart but when in a mob...... Deenuk Thamb chus seenas tayn...(Religion presides over everything else then) Best Rashneek On 7/3/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > > Dear All, > Pasting below a letter to the editor from the Kashmir Observer. This is > the > spirit of generosity that has been absent in the entire debate/fight/war on > the land transfer issue. > Best > Sj > > ------------------- > > Dear Editor, > My humble greetings. I write to you as a brother of Islam and a fellow > human > being. > The mockery of religion and politics that is unfolding in the Valley brings > me to shame. > As disturbing as this charade is, perhaps more disheartening is the fact > that a small gesture offering comfort to people has been mauled into a > grotesque show of power and threat. > I fail to understand how this can happen and am afraid to ask why. My > conscience is unable to accept the answer. > I ask you, sir, what has happened to compassion towards fellow human > beings, > as directed by our Prophet Mohammad? Can't we show a little consideration > for people on a pilgrimage? > Jammu and Kashmir belong to a free, democratic country. Then why this > chaining of basic human right? Aren't providing amenities a fundamental > duty > of any government? Why drag a sacred entity like religion into this matter? > The Haj is a sacred pilgrimage for you and me. I would like to see every > Muslim going on the Haj, comfortable on his commune with God. Won't our > Hindu brothers and sisters going on the Amarnath Yatra require the same > consideration? These pilgrims don't even have hygienic toilet arrangements, > medical facilities and a roof over their heads. Can't we extend some > compassion towards them? > Creating a hue and cry by political parties is irresponsible and ignorant. > Misguiding young minds by claiming that 'Islam is in danger'. The real > danger is when we forget the teachings of our Prophet. > Lets safeguard the true tenets of Islam by standing up of the rights of our > fellow human beings. Lets urge the centre to stop all grants to Jammu and > Kashmir until the human rights of every individual ­ irrespective of caste > and creed ­ are safeguarded. I urge you to spread the message of Allah, of > peace and compassion. Lets each raise a voice against this atrocity. > Faizal Sheikh > on email > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From wanderlustt at rediffmail.com Thu Jul 3 16:57:22 2008 From: wanderlustt at rediffmail.com (Nomad) Date: 3 Jul 2008 11:27:22 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir - The bare facts Message-ID: <20080703112722.6810.qmail@f5mail-236-220.rediffmail.com> Hi All, There have been discussions on Kashmir in this forum and there have been debates and then there have been some fiesty arguments too. I was wondering if anybody really looked at these figures for Jammu and Kashmir: Total Area 2222236 Sq Kms Pakistan Occupies 78114 Sq kms China 42685 Sq Kms Gifted to China by Pakistan 5130 Sq kms S No District Area(Sq Kms) Population (2001 Census) 1 Doda 11691 691929 2 Jammu 3097 1588772 3 Kargil 14036 119307 4 Kathua 2651 550084 5 Leh 45110 117232 6 Poonch 1674 372613 7 Rajauri 2630 483284 8 Udhampur 4550 743509 Sub Total 85439 4666730 9 Anantnag 3984 1172434 10 Budgam 1371 629309 11 Baramulla 4588 1169780 12 Kupwara 2379 650393 13 Pulwama 1398 652607 14 Srinagar 2228 1202447 Sub Total 15948 5476970 You will see subtotals to differentiate the districts in terms of substantial support for sessionist movement. The 5.5 Million living in 15948 Sq Kms are holding the development, progress and future of the remaining 4.6 Million to ransom. Why should they be allowed this? Let there be no ambiguity in the understanding that the Islamic sessionist have learned their lessons from the failure of 1990. That time they showed their true colours and were engaged in the genocide of the ethnic minority community which is the Hindus ensuring a unfirorm demographic in the districts 9-14. This time yatris were spared to get a communal legitimacy for their protests. This is being milked by the current sessionist and political lot. A lot has been discussed here about the sessionists here and I will refrain from talking about that. Today, I will just talk about the Nationalists. Omar Abdullah chose to use the word Kashmiri Nationalism in opposing the erection of permanent structures for Yatris. In this single statement he called the bluff that has been imposed on the rest of the country. How can it be that Indian Nationalism implies giving five star facilities and top priority to Haj Pilgrims but Kashmiri Nationalism implies not allowing facilities to come up in Kashmir for the minority community of the Kashmir valley. Even the demography debate is a big hogwash because by virtue of article 370, only the state subjects are allowed to buy properties in Kashmir. An ordinary Indian may stay for a thousand years in Kashmir but yet has no right to property. Lets take this argument a little further. Who are occupied in the administrative jobs- Kashmiri Muslims. If there are fake state certificates being issued, who is issuing them- Kashmiri Muslims. Then how is the Indian state responsible ofr changing the state demographics. As much as I wish to avoid making it a Hindu Vs Muslim thing, at times you have to call a spade, just that. Reminds me of the Kenny Rogers song, Coward of the County... Sometimes you got to fight to be a man... Nishant http://wanderlustt.blogspot.com On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 Rahul Pandita wrote : >Every morning, Syed Ali Geelani sits on a white porcelain commode, probably imported from Saudi Arabia. His shit, full of anti-India sentiments, travels through pipes to the Wular Lake in his hometown Sopore, in Kashmir, and contributes, on a daily basis, to the shrinking of what used to be Asia’s largest fresh water body. Over the years, Geelani’s morning ritual has been responsible for shrinking the lake area from 202 square kilometres to 30 square kilometres. In Srinagar, meanwhile, his other colleagues, who have been on the streets to force the cancellation of land allotment to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board, citing ecological reasons among others, do the needful with the Dal lake, adding their bit to the 35 million litres of sewage, which is pumped daily into the lake. On top of it, they run houseboats, where clueless Indian families bite into succulent Goshtaba and get photos clicked in traditional Kashmiri attire. > >Together with the government and a former Governor, the Geelanis of Kashmir have turned our sentiments into a Draupadi, each party gambling with a loaded dice. > >Last year, it was powdered ice. On television, they showed the Governor’s men, with their boots on, inside the sanctum sanctorum, enhancing the size of Shivling as if it were a female model in dire need of a silicon implant. Then, this year, we were shown visuals of an artificial, marble Shivling being made in Udaipur, Rajasthan which, we were told, would be put inside to enable the piligrims to have a “complete darshan.” > >To hell with you all! You think, people are spending money on their Kashmir travel and they have to have a “paisa vasool” through the darshan of a full-size, artificial Shivling. For you, a visit to Amarnath may be picnic. For us, it’s a way of life. > >My early memories of our tryst with Shiva come from an aunt who would, every morning, sing Ateebheeshan katubhashan, Yama kinkar patli…, her eyes brimming with tears, begging Shiv to be present when the Yama took her to another world. It meant decorating Shiv as a bridegroom, with silver foil and bel patra, every Shivratri, when snow would reach till our bedroom window. It meant that dream which my father saw as a young man with a new job, in which Shiv appeared and guided him through some confusing office accounts. It means my sister trying to explain to her friends: “We are Shaivites.” > >So, you see, I don’t care whether you get that land or not. I don’t care for your darshan as well. But please, leave that Shivling alone. > >Yesterday, in an Indian Express photo, Rajnath Singh was caught offering a ladoo to Venkaiah Naidu. Both men could not hide their glee. In the election season, they couldn’t have asked for more. On NDTV, they are showing five men and a woman in Jammu – BJP supporters – wearing Vaishno Devi bandanas, shouting slogans for the benefit of cameras. > >“Jo Hindu hit ki baat karega, wo hi desh pe raaj karega” The woman almost looks like the one in Jammu’s Bakshi Nagar, who washed the walls of her cowshed with cheap distemper, and offered it to my uncle’s family for renting, immediately after our migration from the valley in 1990. > >Of course, after almost two decades, we are welcome in Kashmir. Last year, they even allowed the Janamashtami procession. So, as long as we come for a weekend trip, stay in a hotel or a houseboat, buy carpets and shawls as souvenirs for family and friends, we are most welcome. But what about our houses? Our jobs? Our orchards? Errr… you see, Pandit ji, we cannot guarantee your safety. The Afghanis don’t spare us, either. > >So, you please stay in Jammu. We will come and visit you. And, of course, you have your ration cards. Pandit ji, you must be a little optimistic. Jammu is not that bad. Now you even have replicas of Kshir Bhawani and Hari Parbat. I must leave now… for Islamabad… sorry, Anantnag. > >Meanwhile, 290 kilometres away from Jammu, as those yellow Border Road Organisation milestones would tell you, a man, a free man, sits on a Kashmiri carpet, beside a hookah, tearing apart choicest pieces of lamb. His name is Farooq Ahmad Dar. > >You know him very well. He is also called Bitta Karate. > > >Rahul Pandita >www.sanitysucks.blogspot.com >Mobile: 9818088664 > > > __________________________________________________________ >Not happy with your email address?. >Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html >_________________________________________ >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >Critiques & Collaborations >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >List archive: From yasir.media at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 17:38:51 2008 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?WINDOWS-1256?Q?yasir_~=ED=C7_=D3=D1?=) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 05:08:51 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Ghalib and ... In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0807030508ne1f0608s3910c393de19b5a7@mail.gmail.com> References: <147ae070807030326k4ed10f25o8dcf5f26824c7e25@mail.gmail.com> <29af91120807030458r119578ccy3383d9d0dc1466a9@mail.gmail.com> <5af37bb0807030506g57f5cc81r86e0d7d570e0d485@mail.gmail.com> <5af37bb0807030508ne1f0608s3910c393de19b5a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0807030508o50eee91dx3b5a1acc44726301@mail.gmail.com> fwd Source: http://www.voanews.com/urdu/2008-06-26-voa7.cfm?renderforprint=1&textonly=1&&TEXTMODE=1&CFID=8370031&CFTOKEN=34957103 *قیامت کے یہ نامے ۔۔۔ غالب اور کارل مارکس کی خط و کتابت* *عابدہ رپلی واشنگٹن June 26, 2008 * * آج سے پندرہ برس قبل لندن کی مشہور انڈیا آفس لائبریری میں مغلیہ دور کا ایک کرم خوردہ مخطوطہ اٹھایا تو اس کی جلد سے ایک زرد شکستہ کاغذ فرش پر گر پڑا۔ اٹھایا تو آنکھیں چکا چوند ہو گئیں۔ سوادِ خط اور اندازِ بیان جانا پہچانا تھا۔ رہا سہا شک و شبہ خط کے آخر میں غالب کی مہر دیکھ کر دور ہو گیا۔ گھر آ کر خلیق انجم کی مرتبہ خطوطِ غالب کی دونوں جلدیں چھان ماریں مگر ان میں یہ خط کہیں نظر نہیں آیا۔ ایک اور چونکا دینے والی بات تھی کہ خط مشہور جرمن فلسفی کارل مارکس کے نام تھا، جب کہ غالب پر لکھی جانے والی کسی تحریر میں اس بات کا ذکر نہیں ہے کہ غالب اور مارکس کے درمیان کسی قسم کا رابطہ رہا ہو۔ خط سے ظاہر ہوتا تھا کہ یہ مارکس کے خط کا جواب ہے۔ اب یہ فکر لاحق ہو گئی کہ کسی طریقے سے مارکس کا خط بھی مل جائے تو سونے پر سہاگہ ہو جائے۔ سو پندرہ برس کی تگ و دو کے بعد بالآخر مارکس کا خط بھی دستیاب ہو گیا۔ اس کے لیے کتنے کنووں میں بانس ڈلوانے پڑے، اس کا ذکر پھر کبھی، فی الحال آپ یہ نادر خطوط ملاحظہ کیجیئے: کارل مارکس کا خط مرزا غالب کے نام اتوار 21 اپریل، 1867ء لندن، انگلستان ڈئیر غالب: پرسوں مانچسٹر سے اینگلز کا خط موصول ہوا جو اس شعر پر ختم ہوتا تھا: کوہکن گرسنہ مز دورِ طربگاہِ رقیب بے ستوں آئینہٴ خوابِ گرانِ شیریں بہت تگ و دو کے بعد معلوم ہوا کہ یہ شعر ہندوستانی شاعر مرزا اسد اللہ خان غالب کا ہے۔ بھئی کمال ہے، ہمارے وہم و گمان میں بھی نہ تھا کہ ہندوستان میں انقلاب کی تحریک اس قدر جلد شروع ہو جائے گی۔ کل تمھارے کلام کا کچھ اور حصہ بھی ایک لارڈ کی ذاتی لائبریری سے میسر آگیا۔ یہ شعر خوب تھا: ہم کو معلوم ہے جنت کی حقیقت لیکن دل کے بہلانے کو غالب یہ خیال اچھا ہے اپنے کلام کے اگلے ایڈیشن میں اس موضوع پر تفصیل سے لکھنا کہ اے محنت کشو ! جاگیردار، سرمایہ دار اور مذہبی پیشوا جنت کے خواب دکھا کر تمھاری محنت کا استحصال کر رہے ہیں۔بلکہ کیا ہی اچھا ہو اگر تم ایک آدھ نظم اس مصرعہٴ طرح پر کہہ ڈالو کہ: دنیا بھر کے مزدورو، متحد ہو جاؤ میں ہندوستانی اوزان و بحور سے زیادہ واقف نہیں، تم فن کار آدمی ہو ،اس کا وزن خود ہی درست کر لینا۔ اصل کام تو عوام الناس تک پیغام پہنچانا ہے۔بلکہ میری مانو تو غزل اور رباعی جیسی فرسودہ اصناف کو چھوڑ کر آزاد نظم کا راستہ اختیار کرو تاکہ کم سے کم وقت میں زیادہ سے زیادہ پیغامات پس ماندہ اورپسے ہوئے مظلوم طبقوں تک بھیجے جاسکیں۔ ا ور ہاں، کوہکن گرسنہ والے شعر میں یہ اضافہ کر دینا کہ کوہکن اگر شیریں کو حاصل کرنا چاہتا ہے تو بزورِ بازو کرے اور فٹ نوٹ میں یہ بھی لکھ دینا کہ کوہکن پرولتاریہ یعنی محنت کش طبقے کی نمائندگی کرتا ہے، خسرو بُورژوازی یعنی سرمایہ داری اور جاگیرداری کا سمبل ہے جب کہ شیریں محنت کے پھل کی علامت ہے۔ اس خط کے ہمراہ تمھیں کمیونسٹ مینی فیسٹو کا ہندوستانی ترجمہ بھیج رہا ہوں۔ ساتھ سرمایہ (جلد اول) ہے، افسوس کہ اس کا ترجمہ فی الحال ممکن نہیں۔ اگرپسند کرو تو اگلی بار کچھ اور لٹریچر ارسال کروں۔ ہندوستان اسوقت انگریز سامراج کا گڑھ بن چکا ہے۔اور ظلم کی چکی میں پستے ہوئے عوام کو صرف اور صرف ان کی اپنی متحدہ قوت اس جبر و استبداد کے پنجے سے نجات دلوا سکتی ہے۔ تم ایشیا کے دقیانوسی فلسفے پڑھنے کے بجائے جدلی مادیت کا مطالعہ کیا کرو اور بادشاہوں اور نوابوں کے قصیدے لکھنا چھوڑکر عوامی ادب پیدا کرو تاکہ انقلاب کا راستہ ہموار ہو سکے۔انقلاب تو آکر رہے گا۔ دنیا کی کوئی طاقت اسے روک نہیں سکتی۔ وہ وقت آ رہا ہے جب شاہ و گدا کی تمیز مٹ جائےگی، خواجہ و بندہ کا امتیاز جاتا رہے گا۔ ہندوستان کو انقلاب کی راہ پر گامزن دیکھنے کا متمنی تمھارا کارل مارکس نامہ ٴغالب بنام کارل مارکس دوشنبہ 9 ستمبر 1867 میاں کارل مارکس تمھار نامہ، سمیت کمیو نسٹ مینی فیسٹو اور سرمایہ (جلد اول) کے پچھلے ماہ موصول ہو گیا تھا۔ جواب کیسے دیتا؟ ایک تو تمھاری باتیں میری سمجھ میں نہیں آئیں ، دوسرے اس قدر کمزور ہو گیا ہوں کہ لکھنا تو کجا بولنے تک سے قاصر ہوں: مضمحل ہو گئے قوا غالب اب عناصر میں اعتدال کہاں سامعہ مر گیا تھا، اب باصرہ بھی ضعیف ہو گیا ہے۔ جتنی قوتیں انسان میں ہوتی ہیں سب ختم ہیں۔ حواس سراسر مختل ہیں، حافظہ گویا کبھی نہ تھا۔ آج مزرا تفتہ کو خط لکھوایا تو سوچا تمھارے نامے کا جواب بھی ہو جائے۔ فرہاد کے بارے میں تمھارا نظریہ مجھے معلوم نہیں۔تمھارے خط سے خیال ہوتا ہے کہ تم اسے کوئی مزدور سمجھتے ہو۔ ایسی بات نہیں میاں، وہ تو ایک عاشق تھا مگر غالب کو اسکے عشق نے متاثر نہ کیا کہ سر گشتہ ٴ خمارِ رسوم و قیود تھا اور مرنے کے لئے تیشے کا سہار ا ڈھونڈتا تھا۔ اور یہ تم کونسے انقلاب کی باتیں کرتے ہو، انقلاب کو گذرے تو دس برس ہو گئے۔اب تو فرنگی دندناتا ہے، ہر کوئی اسی کے گن گاتا ہے۔ شاہ و گدا کی تمیز تو کب کی مٹ چکی، خواجہ و بندہ کا امتیاز بھی جاتا رہا۔ یقین نہ مانو تو دہلی آکر بچشم ِ خود دیکھ لو۔ چاندنی چوک کے ٹٹ پونجیوں اور قلعہ ٴ معلی کے سابق مکینوں میں فرق کرنا دشوار ہوا ہے۔ اور پھر دہلی پر ہی کیا مو قوف، ہائے لکھنؤ کچھ نہیں کھلتا کہ اس بہارستان پر کیا گذری، اموال کیا ہوئے ، اشخاص کہاں گئے۔ اب اور کون سے انقلاب کی بشارت تم ہمیں دیتے ہو؟ تمھارے خط میں یہ بات بھی مرقوم دیکھی کہ ایسی شاعری پیدا کرو اور ویسی شاعری پیدا کرو۔ بھلے مانس، شاعری کی نسبت تمھارا یہ خیال قطعی خام ہے کہ یہ پیدا کی جا سکتی ہے۔ آتے ہیں غیب سے یہ مضامیں خیال میں غالب صریرِخامہ نوائے سروش ہے اور پھر اپنا حال تو ایسا رہا ہے کہ قصیدہ یا سہرا ہی کیوں نہ ہو، آمد کا دریا بہا چلا آتا ہے۔ جو لفظ ایک مرتبہ نظم ہو گیا، خواہ غزل میں ، خواہ قصیدے میں، بس گنجینہء معنی کا طلسم ہے! و ہ جو انداز ِ بیان، غالب کا، دنیا بھر سے نرالا ٹھہرا تو اسی سبب سے! بادشاہ تو جاتا رہا۔ اب ریاستوں میں جو نواب اور والی مجھ پر نظرِ کرم رکھتے ہیں، ان کی سرپرستی سے بھی مجھے کیوں محروم دیکھنا چاہتے ہو؟ کسی کی مدح میں دو چار اشعار رقم کر دوں تو میرا کیا بگڑتا ہے، بس ذرا آتش ِ سیال کا سبب بن جاتا ہے: غالب چھٹی شراب پر اب بھی کبھی کبھی پیتا ہوں روز ابر و شب ماہتاب میں فلسفہ کیا ہے اور زندگی سے اس کا رابطہ کیا ہے۔یہ ہم سے زیادہ اور کون جانے گا۔ بھائی میرے، یہ کونسی جدلی مادیت لیے پھرتے ہو؟ فلسفے کا شوق ہے تو ویدانت اور وحدت الوجود پڑھو اور یہ خالی خولی ہمدردیاں جتانے کے بجائے کوئی کام کر کے دکھاوٴ۔فرنگستان کے باسی ہو میاں،وائسرائے کے نام ایک سفارشی چٹھی ہی روانہ کرا دو کہ میری سابقہ پنشن بحال کی جاوے۔ سولہ برس تک کلکتہ کی خاک چھانا کیا مگر بے سود۔ اب سمندر پار ایک مداح پیدا ہو گیا ہے ۔ کیا خبر آسمان کچھ رنگ بدلے اور وہ جو شاہ ِ ہند کے بارے میں کہا تھا اب وائسرائے ہند یا ملکہٴانگلستان کی نسبت کہنے کی جسارت ہووے کہ: غالب، وظیفہ خوار ہو دو شاہ کو دعا وہ دن گئے کہ کہتے تھے نوکر نہیں ہوں میں حواس ساتھ نہیں دے رہے اس لیے بس کرتا ہوں عافیت کا طالب غالب * ------------------------------ From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Jul 3 18:58:09 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:28:09 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Open letter to the prime minister of India toscrapthe Indo US nuclear Deal In-Reply-To: <486BB5FE.8080001@gmail.com> References: <"321 44e990807010640s18d1927eibc2baf16edca12e8"@mail.gmail.com> <486BB5FE.8080001@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, thapas has made very interesting observation about the nuke deal and its energy point of view. Simple answer to that is governance is about welfare and life of its citizens in the nation. Nuke deal is simply put an obligation of an individual to please his master and miss, for his survival in office. PM is all out with this one point agenda, not in the national interest. here his interest to be in office till the prince charming is ready mentally and physically to loot is the aim. So now he is in no position to say NO to Sonia who is, if lost in election go back to her Home in Turin, recently refurbished by none other than a official ex chief of SIT staying in Italy as officer on special duty.If she is able to keep the regional satraps together in the guise of secular forces, for their ommissions commissions, she will annoint her son, is the idea she has. The hangers on and sycophants need the party to be in power as otherwise most of them are rootless wonders if it comes to elections as the fragile fragmented votebanks is most hostile to all the" national" parti es, hence this drama. None of the political spectrum are really concerned about "national Interest" as such. If that be so, commercial dealsafter 123 agreement have to be noted that all have to be routed thru washington, with trillions of dollars worth plant and machinery for harvesting the n-energy. I do not know why this N-deal is called a deal as it is for sale off of national interest. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tapas Ray Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 10:38 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Open letter to the prime minister of India toscrapthe Indo US nuclear Deal Cc: Sarai Reader List > Radhika, Partha, Asit, and others, > > Whether the nuclear deal is a sell-out or not, and if so, whether > this > sell-out is in India's interest, and what kind of interest that > may be, > are questions that can be debated. One may also argue over the > possibility of kickbacks for our national "leadership" - currently > Congress - being the real incentive. To me, however, these are > secondary > issues. The primary question is, whether nuclear power per se is > an > acceptable option or or not. (I will keep the weapons issue aside > in > this post.) > > Before addressing the primary issue, let me talk about one of the > secondary ones - the question of economic benefit. Just as there > are > studies which show that nuclear power is economically viable, > there are > others which show that nuclear power plants are not what they are > touted > to be in that respect. Also, it can be argued that clean > technologies, > especially solar, could have been incomparably more viable by now > than > they are, if even a small fraction of the investment that has > been, and > is being made in nuclear R&D, had gone to them. At least one > reason why > this did not happen, I would think, is that there is no direct > military > use of solar power - unless, like Archimedes, one wants to burn up > the > adversary's tanks, ships, aircraft and missiles with focused sunlight. > > As for the bad economics of nuclear power, please see these two > studies/papers. The first is by "tree-hugging" Greenpeace, but the > second is by a university policy research centre in the UK: > > The economics of nuclear power > Greenpeace > Research report 2007 > http://www.greenpeace.org/raw/content/international/press/reports/the-economics-of-nuclear-power.pdf > > The economics of nuclear power: analysis of recent studies > Steve Thomas > (University of Greenwich) > http://www.psiru.org/reports/2005-09-E-Nuclear.pdf > > > While you are at it, you could also take a look at these, written > by an > IIT Kanpur alumnus who went on to earn a PhD in physics from > Boston > University: > http://www.outlookindia.com/author.asp?name=M.V.+Ramana > and > Nuclear Power in India: Failed Past, Dubious Future > M. V. Ramana > http://www.npec-web.org/Essays/Ramana-NuclearPowerInIndia.pdf > > > Now the primary question: the acceptability of nuclear power as > such. In > my opinion, it would be unacceptable even if its economics were > excellent, and the argument that it is a quick means of achieving > "development" does not change anything. There are too many risks, > some > of which are unknown. But some are known. I have quoted below from > two > articles published in major journals, which point this out. The > one by > Mangano and others, is about known cancer risks from nuclear power > plants in the USA and the West. I believe there have been similar > findings in India, too. > > The other article - by Nusbaum - is about the risks involved in > disposing of the radioactive waste of power plants. If you read > the > entire article, you will see that Nusbaum is not against nuclear > power > plants as such, hence is not what some of you might call a tree- > hugging > fundamentalist. > > (If any of you want the entire articles, let me know and I will > email > them to you. I am not posting them in full, so as not to clutter > the list.) > > Note that the risks discussed in these articles are related to > normal > operations with proper safety measures in place. I am not even > talking > about the effect of accidents, of which Chernobyl and Three-Mile > Island > have been the worst so far. There is plenty on the web on these > things too. > > A very common argument is that present-day society is "risk > society", > and there are risks involved in any technology. What this argument > overlooks is that the risks involved in nuclear technology > (peaceful > ones) is of a completely different order from other energy > technologies, > such as hydrocarbons. And by the time the human race wakes up to > these > risks, it will be to late. The damage will have been done. This > has been > the case with hydrocarbons (global warming, lung diseases, etc.), > which > the developed industrial countries - none anywhere near the USA in > scale > or intensity - burned up for decades. Only, in the case of nuclear > power, the effects are perhaps incomparably more disastrous. > > This leads us to another question: if all this is already known, > why do > policymakers in many countries (including India, USA, and recently > UK > after a lull) show such enthusiasm for nuclear power? In my > opinion, it > is the attraction for new technology at any cost, which is a > product of > the instrumental rationality that is typical of modernity. This > rationality makes these policymakers ignore "tree-hugging" values > and > accept the so-called gains, however short-term these may be, and > however > disputed the cost-benefit analyses on which the perception of > these > "gains" may be based. > > Of course, coming back to Radhika, there may be a little cream to > skim > off, too! > > Tapas > > > -------------------------------- > Elevated childhood cancer incidence proximate to U.S. nuclear > power plants. > Joseph J. Mangano, Janette Sherman, Carolyn Chang, Amie Dave, > Elyssa > Feinberg and Marina Frimer. > Archives of Environmental Health 58.2 (Feb 2003): p74(9). > > Abstract: > > Numerous reports document elevated cancer rates among children > living > near nuclear facilities in various nations. Little research has > examined > U.S. rates near the nation's 103 operating reactors. This study > determined that cancer incidence for children < 10 yr of age who > live > within 30 mi (48 km) of each of 14 nuclear plants in the eastern > United > States (49 counties with a population > 16.8 million) exceeds the > national average. The excess 12.4% risk suggests that 1 in 9 > cancers > among children who reside near nuclear reactors is linked to > radioactive > emissions. If cancer incidence in 5 western states is used as a > baseline, the ratio is closer to 1 in 5. Incidence is particularly > elevated for leukemia. Childhood cancer mortality exceeds the > national > average in 7 of the 14 study areas. > > ------------------------------ > Radiation risk to future generations from long-lived radioactive > waste.Neil J. Nusbaum > Journal of Community Health 31.5 (Oct 2006): p363(5). > > ... > > The physical characteristics and integrity of the storage facility > include features such as the overlying vegetation (2) that, in the > absence of ongoing human agricultural maintenance, are subject to > substantial variation with changes in conditions such as local > rainfall. > It remains highly speculative whether any arrangement for storage > which > we as a species can now devise would remain functional for ten > radioactive half lives, until the time when the decay process is > 99.9% > complete (even leaving aside any additional decay time for > radioactive > daughters). Indeed, for some of the longer-lived waste products, > even a > single half life of decay would require a time frame substantially > longer the age of the most ancient surviving human architectural > creations. While we can be confident of the shape of natural > radioactive > decay curves over geologic time, the time to failure for > individual > human artifacts is much less predictable. Accordingly, one must > harbor > some skepticism that a single repository in the Utah desert will > remain > intact for even a single half life of one of the important longer > lived > transuranuium isotopes (Plutonium-239, half life of 2.4 x > [10.sup.4] > years.). (3) > > Of the seven wonders of the ancient world, only one (4) has proven > able > to persist relatively intact for even a few millennia. The sole > survivor, the pyramids of Giza, was and is located in proximity to > a > major metropolis. This proximity has kept it under human > observation, > but also has made the structure subject to deterioration from > adjacent > human activity. It is not surprising perhaps that attention has > focused > on site placement distant from current population centers. > > The potential effects of long lived radioactive waste storage also > involve consideration of the potential economic cost and safety > hazard > to those in the region, both the large numbers now living in Las > Vegas, > and the now far smaller number who live in closer physical > proximity to > the Yucca Mountain site. It seems speculative at best to assume > that any > of the desert terrain of the American West will remain sparsely > populated centuries into the future, merely because such climate > seems > inhospitable under present levels of technology and levels of > population > pressure. In the medium to long term, in addition, patterns of > climate > may also change as a consequence of phenomena such as the > increasing > worldwide burden of greenhouse gases, and could make current > desert > areas more desirable (either by change in their own local climate > for > the better, or by change for the worse in climate in other areas). > > The recent efforts at emergency management of the Hurricane > Katrina > relief effort make it prudent to consider how efforts might be > coordinated to contain and control any degradation of the > integrity of a > national repository of long lived radioactive waste, in particular > such > as at Yucca Flats in Nevada. > > ... > > --------------------------------- > > > > > radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > Hi Partha, > > > > It is sincerly hoped that you have read the statement by the > nuclear scientists who have served India for years on the issue of > this N-deal, where in they clearly maintain that this deal amounts > to all commercial purchases being controlled by washington and > India would have to be at the mercy of washington even after the > NSG agrees to supply uranium, which exactly is objectionable. > Also, the party which ruled the nation forfifty years has all the > deals with kickbacks to the first family which histroy has > recorded well, be it PL 480 funds during the nehru and his mixed > economy, or Indira and her poisoned predecessor Shastriji, and > russian deals or the latter version of mr. Clean with Bofors who > later had to pay the price but still his uncle Q got the freezed > funds thanks to his queen. > > > > Moot point is nuclear energy is costliest and to set up > plants we need to spend billions for long period of 25 years with > lot many contracts and lots more kickbacks, hence the Pm is keen > for this deal with US, being Mr. Honest, he is out there to prove > how dishonest he is to the national interest with his personal > loyalty to the first family.! > > > > Regards. > > From: Partha Dasgupta > > Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008 7:11 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Open letter to the prime minister of > India to scrapthe Indo US nuclear Deal > > To: Asit asitreds > > Cc: Sarai Reader List > > > >> Hi Asit, > >> > >> Just for a moment, lets not wear the blinkers of "US > Imperialism" and > >> look at what the scenario is and what the options are: > >> > >> 1. India has already started the Nuclear Race with Pakistan a > >> long time back, > >> and with the distrust between the nations, would be > surprised if > >> they'd stop > >> just because the current treaty is not signed. So what is this > >> talk about India > >> being Nuclear Free? > >> > >> 2. How does signing make India lose it's "hard earned > >> sovereignty"? On one hand > >> you talk of a nuclear race and on the other do not wish to > sign>> on the dotted line > >> to use nuclear bye products for peaceful purposes! > >> > >> 3. We're already chock a block on Coal and other power > creators. With > >> the water based > >> ones, the displacement will be high (not counting the arguments > >> with Pakistan & Bangladesh) > >> and, of course, the recent posts on this list about the > water > >> in Kashmir. > >> > >> 4. What sustainable method of power generation do you have in > >> mind - > >> unless your contention > >> is that India should live without power and that power is only > >> for cities. Sounds highly illogical > >> to me. > >> > >> In fact the whole message comes across as " they're the US, > therefore>> everything they do is evil" which is something I will > not accept > >> as a > >> reason. Both Russia and China have Nuclear capability for both > power>> and warfare, yet because it is the US that has offered it, > the treaty > >> has become a tool of "US Imperialism". > >> > >> Doesn't wash. > >> > >> Rgds, Partha > >> .................... > >> > >> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 5:28 PM, Asit asitreds > >> wrote: > >>> Dear Friends > >>> > >>> Please see the following letter to the > prime > >> minister> to scrap the Indo-US nuclear deal, if you agree with > the > >> political content > >>> please endorse the letter.And if possible please forward it to > >> others.> > >>> > >>> With Regards > >>> > >>> Asit > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> AN OPEN LETTER TO THE PRIME MINSTER OF INDIA TO SCRAP THE INDO > >> US NUCLEAR > >>> DEAL > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> To > >>> > >>> Shri Manmohan Singh > >>> > >>> Prime Minister > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Dear Prime Minister, > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> We the undersigned demand scrapping of the Indo-US Nuclear > Deal with > >>> immediate effect. The content of the Deal which is currently being > >>> negotiated between India and the US was the first laid out in > >> the joint > >>> statement issued by the Prime Minister and the US President on > >> July 18, 2005 > >>> from Washington DC and further reiterated on March 2, 2006 in > >> another joint > >>> statement by them issued from New Delhi. The signing of the > >> Henry Hyde Act > >>> on December 18, 2006 is logical interference of the content of > >> the Act > >>> legally making India a junior ally of the US Imperialism > >> confiscating> and trunacating > >>> our hard earned sovereignty. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> We therefore demand that the Indo-US Nuclear Deal be scrapped > >> given up with > >>> immediate effect and the ongoing talks between IAEA should be > >> called off > >>> immediately. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> The Indo-US Nuclear Deal is patently anti-people, will make > >> India a > >>> strategic ally of American Imperialism in South Asia to impose > >> its hegemony > >>> over Asia. The Deal also negates the concrete achievements > >> gained by the > >>> International and national peace movements for disarmament and > >> Nuclear-free > >>> World. After the example of the ruthless genocide, devastation and > >>> occupation of Iraq before us, we feel that the Indo-US Nuclear > >> Deal will > >>> become an instrument for ruthlessly imposing the neo-liberal > >> economic agenda > >>> and pliant regimes over the impoverished people of the Third > >> World and > >>> further tightening the hold through the Indo-US Nuclear Deal, > US > >> Imperialism> will have a firm grip over the governments of > the > >> independent> nation-states of India and Asia. This makes a > mockery > >> of the cherished > >>> values of equal and democratic world order and the aspirations > >> of the > >>> national liberation struggles including the whole spirit of > >> decolonization.> > >>> > >>> The Indo-US Nuclear Deal is an outrageous instrument of > >> recolonization of > >>> India and Third World. The Deal, as and when comes through > will, > >> grievously> undermine the current global; regime of nuclear > non- > >> proliferation, as it is > >>> meant to make an unique exception in case of India, in gross > >> violation of > >>> underlying principles of the International peace, workers, > >> environment and > >>> women's movements. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> The fact that Pakistan has been brusquely refused a similar > deal > >> by the US > >>> in spite of persistent clamouring, and Iran is being > >> demonstratively coerced > >>> to desist from developing its own nuclear power production > >> allowed and > >>> encouraged under article IV of the NPT which further brings > out > >> graphically> the abominable discriminatory nature of the Deal. > The > >> deal is likely to > >>> trigger a stepped up vertical and horizontal proliferations > all > >> over Asia. > >>> This goes against our commitment of Nuclear-free Asia and > World. > >> by enabling > >>> India to import fuel natural or enriched Uranium, from abroad > >> the 'Deal' > >>> would make it possible for India to use the indigenously > >> produced Uranium > >>> exclusively for bomb making. This possible escalation in its > fissile>>> material production capacity, in all likelihood, it > will push > >> Pakistan> further to nuclearise even at great cost, and thereby > >> aggravate tensions and > >>> accelerate the arms race in the region with horrifying > >> consequences. The > >>> arms race will divert resources of the country away from > >> development so > >>> desperately required by the toiling masses to overcome their > current>>> poverty. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> We totally reject the proposition that it will enhance India's > >> energy> security and, we categorically assert that nuclear > power > >> is prohibitively > >>> costly., therefore the Deal will distort India's energy > options > >> by diverting > >>> resource guzzling, and the intrinsically hazardous and potentially > >>> catastrophic, nuclear power at the cost of eco-friendly and > many > >> times> financially cheaper renewable sources of energy. > >>> > >>> > >>> With the human development index of India and the Third World > >> miserably low, > >>> we demand that instead of spending irrationally on nuclear power, > >>> expenditures on in health, education, food security, rural and > urban>>> employment be enhanced. > >>> > >>> We want to remind you that India as the leader of the Non- > >> Aligned Movement > >>> and as vocal participant in various international forums > >> including the UN, > >>> has always committed itself for a Nuclear-free World and > >> abolition of the > >>> existing nuclear weapons. In the spirit of the above we want > the > >> Government> of India to ban the entry of nuclear powered sub > >> marines of the US and other > >>> major NATO countries. After six decades after of the Hiroshima > >> and Nagasaki > >>> nuclear tragedies, we demand that immediate steps to be taken > >> for a > >>> Nuclear-free Asia and the world. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> The above Indo-US Nuclear Deal will further reinforce the > >> unequal strategic > >>> relationship between the US and thereby would add momentum to > >> the US > >>> imperialistic project for unfettered global dominance .We > reject any > >>> ambitions of the Indian ruling classes to act as the a Big > >> Brother in South > >>> Asia or to emerge as a global power basking in the reflected > >> glory of global > >>> headman and goon. This will not only undermine India's > position > >> as a > >>> founding and leading member of the Non- Aligned Movement but > >> will seriously > >>> undermine prestige of NAM as a whole; > >>> > >>> of meekly surrendering to the US Imperialism defying the > democratic>>> aspirations of the toiling masses of the Third World > for a > >> Nuclear-free, > >>> just and livable world. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Vijay Pratap(Convener Lokayan) > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Babu Lal Sharma (Convenor, Global Gandhi Forum) > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Rakesh Bhatt (Coordinator, SADED/CSDS) > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Kiran Shaheen(Media and Social Activist) > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Chandrika(Editor-Dakhal Duniya web magazine) > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Prakash Kumar Ray (Film maker and Research Scholar/Film > >> Studies/School of > >>> art & Aesthetic JNU) > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Jeet Bhattacharya (Research Scholar, Film Studies, School of > art > >> & Aesthetic > >>> JNU) > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Rishika Mehershi (Research Scholar, Performing Arts, School of > >> art & > >>> Aesthetic JNU) > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Asit (Researcher and Social Activist) > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Kumar Sameer(Social Activist) > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Peeyush Pant ( Editor-Lok Samvad) > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> with subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list>>> List archive: > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Partha Dasgupta > >> +919811047132 > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> list > >> List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Jul 3 19:00:44 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:30:44 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Open letter to the prime minister of India toscrapthe Indo US nuclear Deal In-Reply-To: <32144e990807020920k2bf8b9cfnefe57d984a61b761@mail.gmail.com> References: <"321 44e990807010640s18d1927eibc2baf16edca12e8"@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990807020920k2bf8b9cfnefe57d984a61b761@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, your post is wrong in the aspect of australian supply of uranium as its new set up has categorically informed in press briefing that it will not supply to India unless it signs non prliferation and test ban treaties. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Partha Dasgupta Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 9:50 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Open letter to the prime minister of India toscrapthe Indo US nuclear Deal To: "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" Cc: Sarai Reader List > Hi, > > 1. Please read the specifics of the act which allows India to > stockpile in > case it feels that supply is an issue > > 2. At the end of the day, there is more than one supplier and > Australia is already willing to sell to India and is waiting > for the approval to > go through. > > In short, India will be free to buy from any supplier and please don't > hit the "imperialist" button because at the end of the day all these > nations look at enhancing their coffers as happened in the recent bid > for fighter planes. > > Where kick back, etc is concerned - well, whether it is "the party > which ruled the nation forfifty years" or any other, time has > shown us > that none are different, and the unfortunate fact is that India allows > people to govern us who we'd not trust with our children. Whether the > coffins during the recent Kargill war or Bofors, it won't make a > difference. > > As for the cost, > a) With the spiralling cost of oil and coal - not to mention what it's > doing to the environment the existing infrastructure is crumbling. > > b) Global warming and melting glaciers makes hydal power an > uncertain future > > Sure, the start up cots is expensive - and so is setting up a new dam > or a coal power station. > > Don't see any logic in what you're saying - except for a crib against > the Congress. > > I really don't care who's in power. What I do care about is that India > has sufficient power for the future. > > Rgds, Partha > ............................................ > > > On 7/2/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > Hi Partha, > > > > It is sincerly hoped that you have read the statement by the > nuclear scientists who have served India for years on the issue of > this N-deal, where in they clearly maintain that this deal amounts > to all commercial purchases being controlled by washington and > India would have to be at the mercy of washington even after the > NSG agrees to supply uranium, which exactly is objectionable. > Also, the party which ruled the nation forfifty years has all the > deals with kickbacks to the first family which histroy has > recorded well, be it PL 480 funds during the nehru and his mixed > economy, or Indira and her poisoned predecessor Shastriji, and > russian deals or the latter version of mr. Clean with Bofors who > later had to pay the price but still his uncle Q got the freezed > funds thanks to his queen. > > > > Moot point is nuclear energy is costliest and to set up plants > we need to spend billions for long period of 25 years with lot > many contracts and lots more kickbacks, hence the Pm is keen for > this deal with US, being Mr. Honest, he is out there to prove how > dishonest he is to the national interest with his personal loyalty > to the first family.! > > > > Regards. > > From: Partha Dasgupta > > Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008 7:11 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Open letter to the prime minister of > India to scrapthe Indo US nuclear Deal > > To: Asit asitreds > > Cc: Sarai Reader List > > > > > Hi Asit, > > > > > > Just for a moment, lets not wear the blinkers of "US > Imperialism" and > > > look at what the scenario is and what the options are: > > > > > > 1. India has already started the Nuclear Race with Pakistan a > > > long time back, > > > and with the distrust between the nations, would be > surprised if > > > they'd stop > > > just because the current treaty is not signed. So what is this > > > talk about India > > > being Nuclear Free? > > > > > > 2. How does signing make India lose it's "hard earned > > > sovereignty"? On one hand > > > you talk of a nuclear race and on the other do not wish > to sign > > > on the dotted line > > > to use nuclear bye products for peaceful purposes! > > > > > > 3. We're already chock a block on Coal and other power > creators. With > > > the water based > > > ones, the displacement will be high (not counting the > arguments> > with Pakistan & Bangladesh) > > > and, of course, the recent posts on this list about the water > > > in Kashmir. > > > > > > 4. What sustainable method of power generation do you have in > > > mind - > > > unless your contention > > > is that India should live without power and that power is only > > > for cities. Sounds highly illogical > > > to me. > > > > > > In fact the whole message comes across as " they're the US, > therefore> > everything they do is evil" which is something I will > not accept > > > as a > > > reason. Both Russia and China have Nuclear capability for both > power> > and warfare, yet because it is the US that has offered > it, the treaty > > > has become a tool of "US Imperialism". > > > > > > Doesn't wash. > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > .................... > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 5:28 PM, Asit asitreds > > > wrote: > > > > Dear Friends > > > > > > > > Please see the following letter to the prime > > > minister> to scrap the Indo-US nuclear deal, if you agree with the > > > political content > > > > please endorse the letter.And if possible please forward it to > > > others.> > > > > > > > > > > > > With Regards > > > > > > > > Asit > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AN OPEN LETTER TO THE PRIME MINSTER OF INDIA TO SCRAP THE INDO > > > US NUCLEAR > > > > DEAL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To > > > > > > > > Shri Manmohan Singh > > > > > > > > Prime Minister > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Prime Minister, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We the undersigned demand scrapping of the Indo-US Nuclear > Deal with > > > > immediate effect. The content of the Deal which is currently > being> > > negotiated between India and the US was the first laid > out in > > > the joint > > > > statement issued by the Prime Minister and the US President on > > > July 18, 2005 > > > > from Washington DC and further reiterated on March 2, 2006 in > > > another joint > > > > statement by them issued from New Delhi. The signing of the > > > Henry Hyde Act > > > > on December 18, 2006 is logical interference of the content of > > > the Act > > > > legally making India a junior ally of the US Imperialism > > > confiscating> and trunacating > > > > our hard earned sovereignty. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We therefore demand that the Indo-US Nuclear Deal be scrapped > > > given up with > > > > immediate effect and the ongoing talks between IAEA should be > > > called off > > > > immediately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Indo-US Nuclear Deal is patently anti-people, will make > > > India a > > > > strategic ally of American Imperialism in South Asia to impose > > > its hegemony > > > > over Asia. The Deal also negates the concrete achievements > > > gained by the > > > > International and national peace movements for disarmament and > > > Nuclear-free > > > > World. After the example of the ruthless genocide, > devastation and > > > > occupation of Iraq before us, we feel that the Indo-US Nuclear > > > Deal will > > > > become an instrument for ruthlessly imposing the neo-liberal > > > economic agenda > > > > and pliant regimes over the impoverished people of the Third > > > World and > > > > further tightening the hold through the Indo-US Nuclear > Deal, US > > > Imperialism> will have a firm grip over the governments of the > > > independent> nation-states of India and Asia. This makes a mockery > > > of the cherished > > > > values of equal and democratic world order and the aspirations > > > of the > > > > national liberation struggles including the whole spirit of > > > decolonization.> > > > > > > > > > > > > The Indo-US Nuclear Deal is an outrageous instrument of > > > recolonization of > > > > India and Third World. The Deal, as and when comes through will, > > > grievously> undermine the current global; regime of nuclear > non- > > > proliferation, as it is > > > > meant to make an unique exception in case of India, in gross > > > violation of > > > > underlying principles of the International peace, workers, > > > environment and > > > > women's movements. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The fact that Pakistan has been brusquely refused a similar deal > > > by the US > > > > in spite of persistent clamouring, and Iran is being > > > demonstratively coerced > > > > to desist from developing its own nuclear power production > > > allowed and > > > > encouraged under article IV of the NPT which further brings out > > > graphically> the abominable discriminatory nature of the Deal. The > > > deal is likely to > > > > trigger a stepped up vertical and horizontal proliferations all > > > over Asia. > > > > This goes against our commitment of Nuclear-free Asia and World. > > > by enabling > > > > India to import fuel natural or enriched Uranium, from abroad > > > the 'Deal' > > > > would make it possible for India to use the indigenously > > > produced Uranium > > > > exclusively for bomb making. This possible escalation in its > fissile> > > material production capacity, in all likelihood, it > will push > > > Pakistan> further to nuclearise even at great cost, and thereby > > > aggravate tensions and > > > > accelerate the arms race in the region with horrifying > > > consequences. The > > > > arms race will divert resources of the country away from > > > development so > > > > desperately required by the toiling masses to overcome their > current> > > poverty. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We totally reject the proposition that it will enhance India's > > > energy> security and, we categorically assert that nuclear power > > > is prohibitively > > > > costly., therefore the Deal will distort India's energy options > > > by diverting > > > > resource guzzling, and the intrinsically hazardous and > potentially> > > catastrophic, nuclear power at the cost of eco- > friendly and many > > > times> financially cheaper renewable sources of energy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With the human development index of India and the Third World > > > miserably low, > > > > we demand that instead of spending irrationally on nuclear > power,> > > expenditures on in health, education, food security, > rural and urban > > > > employment be enhanced. > > > > > > > > We want to remind you that India as the leader of the Non- > > > Aligned Movement > > > > and as vocal participant in various international forums > > > including the UN, > > > > has always committed itself for a Nuclear-free World and > > > abolition of the > > > > existing nuclear weapons. In the spirit of the above we want the > > > Government> of India to ban the entry of nuclear powered sub > > > marines of the US and other > > > > major NATO countries. After six decades after of the Hiroshima > > > and Nagasaki > > > > nuclear tragedies, we demand that immediate steps to be taken > > > for a > > > > Nuclear-free Asia and the world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The above Indo-US Nuclear Deal will further reinforce the > > > unequal strategic > > > > relationship between the US and thereby would add momentum to > > > the US > > > > imperialistic project for unfettered global dominance .We > reject any > > > > ambitions of the Indian ruling classes to act as the a Big > > > Brother in South > > > > Asia or to emerge as a global power basking in the reflected > > > glory of global > > > > headman and goon. This will not only undermine India's position > > > as a > > > > founding and leading member of the Non- Aligned Movement but > > > will seriously > > > > undermine prestige of NAM as a whole; > > > > > > > > of meekly surrendering to the US Imperialism defying the > democratic> > > aspirations of the toiling masses of the Third > World for a > > > Nuclear-free, > > > > just and livable world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vijay Pratap(Convener Lokayan) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Babu Lal Sharma (Convenor, Global Gandhi Forum) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rakesh Bhatt (Coordinator, SADED/CSDS) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kiran Shaheen(Media and Social Activist) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chandrika(Editor-Dakhal Duniya web magazine) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Prakash Kumar Ray (Film maker and Research Scholar/Film > > > Studies/School of > > > > art & Aesthetic JNU) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jeet Bhattacharya (Research Scholar, Film Studies, School of art > > > & Aesthetic > > > > JNU) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rishika Mehershi (Research Scholar, Performing Arts, School of > > > art & > > > > Aesthetic JNU) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Asit (Researcher and Social Activist) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kumar Sameer(Social Activist) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peeyush Pant ( Editor-Lok Samvad) > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > +919811047132 > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Jul 3 19:04:32 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:34:32 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Open letter to the prime minister of India toscrapthe Indo US nuclear Deal In-Reply-To: <32144e990807020920k2bf8b9cfnefe57d984a61b761@mail.gmail.com> References: <"321 44e990807010640s18d1927eibc2baf16edca12e8"@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990807020920k2bf8b9cfnefe57d984a61b761@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, as to your talks and thoughts on cost of energy and eco balance, again I must say your thoughts are not correct with atomic reactors and waste of such plants are more dangerous than the conventional plants, also difficult to control the N-waste after the plant has used the fuel, spent fuel and its containment is more costly than the plant itself. in case of doubt also see the coverage of chernobyl accidents in this matter. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Partha Dasgupta Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 9:50 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Open letter to the prime minister of India toscrapthe Indo US nuclear Deal To: "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" Cc: Sarai Reader List > Hi, > > 1. Please read the specifics of the act which allows India to > stockpile in > case it feels that supply is an issue > > 2. At the end of the day, there is more than one supplier and > Australia is already willing to sell to India and is waiting > for the approval to > go through. > > In short, India will be free to buy from any supplier and please don't > hit the "imperialist" button because at the end of the day all these > nations look at enhancing their coffers as happened in the recent bid > for fighter planes. > > Where kick back, etc is concerned - well, whether it is "the party > which ruled the nation forfifty years" or any other, time has > shown us > that none are different, and the unfortunate fact is that India allows > people to govern us who we'd not trust with our children. Whether the > coffins during the recent Kargill war or Bofors, it won't make a > difference. > > As for the cost, > a) With the spiralling cost of oil and coal - not to mention what it's > doing to the environment the existing infrastructure is crumbling. > > b) Global warming and melting glaciers makes hydal power an > uncertain future > > Sure, the start up cots is expensive - and so is setting up a new dam > or a coal power station. > > Don't see any logic in what you're saying - except for a crib against > the Congress. > > I really don't care who's in power. What I do care about is that India > has sufficient power for the future. > > Rgds, Partha > ............................................ > > > On 7/2/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > Hi Partha, > > > > It is sincerly hoped that you have read the statement by the > nuclear scientists who have served India for years on the issue of > this N-deal, where in they clearly maintain that this deal amounts > to all commercial purchases being controlled by washington and > India would have to be at the mercy of washington even after the > NSG agrees to supply uranium, which exactly is objectionable. > Also, the party which ruled the nation forfifty years has all the > deals with kickbacks to the first family which histroy has > recorded well, be it PL 480 funds during the nehru and his mixed > economy, or Indira and her poisoned predecessor Shastriji, and > russian deals or the latter version of mr. Clean with Bofors who > later had to pay the price but still his uncle Q got the freezed > funds thanks to his queen. > > > > Moot point is nuclear energy is costliest and to set up plants > we need to spend billions for long period of 25 years with lot > many contracts and lots more kickbacks, hence the Pm is keen for > this deal with US, being Mr. Honest, he is out there to prove how > dishonest he is to the national interest with his personal loyalty > to the first family.! > > > > Regards. > > From: Partha Dasgupta > > Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008 7:11 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Open letter to the prime minister of > India to scrapthe Indo US nuclear Deal > > To: Asit asitreds > > Cc: Sarai Reader List > > > > > Hi Asit, > > > > > > Just for a moment, lets not wear the blinkers of "US > Imperialism" and > > > look at what the scenario is and what the options are: > > > > > > 1. India has already started the Nuclear Race with Pakistan a > > > long time back, > > > and with the distrust between the nations, would be > surprised if > > > they'd stop > > > just because the current treaty is not signed. So what is this > > > talk about India > > > being Nuclear Free? > > > > > > 2. How does signing make India lose it's "hard earned > > > sovereignty"? On one hand > > > you talk of a nuclear race and on the other do not wish > to sign > > > on the dotted line > > > to use nuclear bye products for peaceful purposes! > > > > > > 3. We're already chock a block on Coal and other power > creators. With > > > the water based > > > ones, the displacement will be high (not counting the > arguments> > with Pakistan & Bangladesh) > > > and, of course, the recent posts on this list about the water > > > in Kashmir. > > > > > > 4. What sustainable method of power generation do you have in > > > mind - > > > unless your contention > > > is that India should live without power and that power is only > > > for cities. Sounds highly illogical > > > to me. > > > > > > In fact the whole message comes across as " they're the US, > therefore> > everything they do is evil" which is something I will > not accept > > > as a > > > reason. Both Russia and China have Nuclear capability for both > power> > and warfare, yet because it is the US that has offered > it, the treaty > > > has become a tool of "US Imperialism". > > > > > > Doesn't wash. > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > .................... > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 5:28 PM, Asit asitreds > > > wrote: > > > > Dear Friends > > > > > > > > Please see the following letter to the prime > > > minister> to scrap the Indo-US nuclear deal, if you agree with the > > > political content > > > > please endorse the letter.And if possible please forward it to > > > others.> > > > > > > > > > > > > With Regards > > > > > > > > Asit > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AN OPEN LETTER TO THE PRIME MINSTER OF INDIA TO SCRAP THE INDO > > > US NUCLEAR > > > > DEAL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To > > > > > > > > Shri Manmohan Singh > > > > > > > > Prime Minister > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Prime Minister, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We the undersigned demand scrapping of the Indo-US Nuclear > Deal with > > > > immediate effect. The content of the Deal which is currently > being> > > negotiated between India and the US was the first laid > out in > > > the joint > > > > statement issued by the Prime Minister and the US President on > > > July 18, 2005 > > > > from Washington DC and further reiterated on March 2, 2006 in > > > another joint > > > > statement by them issued from New Delhi. The signing of the > > > Henry Hyde Act > > > > on December 18, 2006 is logical interference of the content of > > > the Act > > > > legally making India a junior ally of the US Imperialism > > > confiscating> and trunacating > > > > our hard earned sovereignty. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We therefore demand that the Indo-US Nuclear Deal be scrapped > > > given up with > > > > immediate effect and the ongoing talks between IAEA should be > > > called off > > > > immediately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Indo-US Nuclear Deal is patently anti-people, will make > > > India a > > > > strategic ally of American Imperialism in South Asia to impose > > > its hegemony > > > > over Asia. The Deal also negates the concrete achievements > > > gained by the > > > > International and national peace movements for disarmament and > > > Nuclear-free > > > > World. After the example of the ruthless genocide, > devastation and > > > > occupation of Iraq before us, we feel that the Indo-US Nuclear > > > Deal will > > > > become an instrument for ruthlessly imposing the neo-liberal > > > economic agenda > > > > and pliant regimes over the impoverished people of the Third > > > World and > > > > further tightening the hold through the Indo-US Nuclear > Deal, US > > > Imperialism> will have a firm grip over the governments of the > > > independent> nation-states of India and Asia. This makes a mockery > > > of the cherished > > > > values of equal and democratic world order and the aspirations > > > of the > > > > national liberation struggles including the whole spirit of > > > decolonization.> > > > > > > > > > > > > The Indo-US Nuclear Deal is an outrageous instrument of > > > recolonization of > > > > India and Third World. The Deal, as and when comes through will, > > > grievously> undermine the current global; regime of nuclear > non- > > > proliferation, as it is > > > > meant to make an unique exception in case of India, in gross > > > violation of > > > > underlying principles of the International peace, workers, > > > environment and > > > > women's movements. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The fact that Pakistan has been brusquely refused a similar deal > > > by the US > > > > in spite of persistent clamouring, and Iran is being > > > demonstratively coerced > > > > to desist from developing its own nuclear power production > > > allowed and > > > > encouraged under article IV of the NPT which further brings out > > > graphically> the abominable discriminatory nature of the Deal. The > > > deal is likely to > > > > trigger a stepped up vertical and horizontal proliferations all > > > over Asia. > > > > This goes against our commitment of Nuclear-free Asia and World. > > > by enabling > > > > India to import fuel natural or enriched Uranium, from abroad > > > the 'Deal' > > > > would make it possible for India to use the indigenously > > > produced Uranium > > > > exclusively for bomb making. This possible escalation in its > fissile> > > material production capacity, in all likelihood, it > will push > > > Pakistan> further to nuclearise even at great cost, and thereby > > > aggravate tensions and > > > > accelerate the arms race in the region with horrifying > > > consequences. The > > > > arms race will divert resources of the country away from > > > development so > > > > desperately required by the toiling masses to overcome their > current> > > poverty. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We totally reject the proposition that it will enhance India's > > > energy> security and, we categorically assert that nuclear power > > > is prohibitively > > > > costly., therefore the Deal will distort India's energy options > > > by diverting > > > > resource guzzling, and the intrinsically hazardous and > potentially> > > catastrophic, nuclear power at the cost of eco- > friendly and many > > > times> financially cheaper renewable sources of energy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With the human development index of India and the Third World > > > miserably low, > > > > we demand that instead of spending irrationally on nuclear > power,> > > expenditures on in health, education, food security, > rural and urban > > > > employment be enhanced. > > > > > > > > We want to remind you that India as the leader of the Non- > > > Aligned Movement > > > > and as vocal participant in various international forums > > > including the UN, > > > > has always committed itself for a Nuclear-free World and > > > abolition of the > > > > existing nuclear weapons. In the spirit of the above we want the > > > Government> of India to ban the entry of nuclear powered sub > > > marines of the US and other > > > > major NATO countries. After six decades after of the Hiroshima > > > and Nagasaki > > > > nuclear tragedies, we demand that immediate steps to be taken > > > for a > > > > Nuclear-free Asia and the world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The above Indo-US Nuclear Deal will further reinforce the > > > unequal strategic > > > > relationship between the US and thereby would add momentum to > > > the US > > > > imperialistic project for unfettered global dominance .We > reject any > > > > ambitions of the Indian ruling classes to act as the a Big > > > Brother in South > > > > Asia or to emerge as a global power basking in the reflected > > > glory of global > > > > headman and goon. This will not only undermine India's position > > > as a > > > > founding and leading member of the Non- Aligned Movement but > > > will seriously > > > > undermine prestige of NAM as a whole; > > > > > > > > of meekly surrendering to the US Imperialism defying the > democratic> > > aspirations of the toiling masses of the Third > World for a > > > Nuclear-free, > > > > just and livable world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vijay Pratap(Convener Lokayan) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Babu Lal Sharma (Convenor, Global Gandhi Forum) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rakesh Bhatt (Coordinator, SADED/CSDS) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kiran Shaheen(Media and Social Activist) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chandrika(Editor-Dakhal Duniya web magazine) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Prakash Kumar Ray (Film maker and Research Scholar/Film > > > Studies/School of > > > > art & Aesthetic JNU) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jeet Bhattacharya (Research Scholar, Film Studies, School of art > > > & Aesthetic > > > > JNU) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rishika Mehershi (Research Scholar, Performing Arts, School of > > > art & > > > > Aesthetic JNU) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Asit (Researcher and Social Activist) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kumar Sameer(Social Activist) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peeyush Pant ( Editor-Lok Samvad) > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > +919811047132 > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Jul 3 19:09:27 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:39:27 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Solving Amarnath: New Hope in Kashmir In-Reply-To: <884537.28263.qm@web53608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <47e122a70807020418o737c232l42c0b1b1e39de479@mail.gmail.com> <884537.28263.qm@web53608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: As we debate we do not hold brief for any political set of parties as all the parties have only lived on commune votes, be it Yadavs, Jats, or muslims or christians. Thanks to the fragmented polity and the votebanks, hindus are weakest of all the vote banks, divided on caste lines, perhaps, BJP has done service to the nation by atleast wiping the caste factors and faith factoring to new minimal after its six years of rule as NDA and some real developmental works in road such as highways is visible of that governance as against the appeasement politics of all the UPA allies to castes and faiths as high ways are used by all to transport faster. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rahul Asthana Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 6:13 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Solving Amarnath: New Hope in Kashmir To: reader-list at sarai.net, inder salim > Inder, > Yes, of course, and then we can all ponder in leisure why BJP is > making a communal issue of what is essentially environmental > vigilantism;and also hope that BJP's communal politics will be > diffused by calling it "real threat" and its politics "fraudulent" > etc..You have my best wishes. > > --- On Wed, 7/2/08, inder salim wrote: > > > From: inder salim > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Solving Amarnath: New Hope in Kashmir > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 4:48 PM > > now, the real threat is BJP > > which is trying its best to manufacture Ayodhya like crises > > for a > > fradulent return to > > power > > > > > > > > On 7/2/08, Kashmir Affairs > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Solving > > > Amarnath: A New Hope in Kashmir > > > > > > > > > Murtaza > > > Shibli > > > > > > > > > [www.kashmiraffairs.org] > > > > > > > > > > > > The bold decision of the Congress government > > > led by Ghulam Nabi Azad in Srinagar must be commended. > > By revoking the land > > > order to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB) that > > was illegal at the first > > > place, Azad has not only shown great courage and > > decision making skills to deal > > > with a crisis that was spiralling out of control, a la > > 1990, but also taken > > > both the People's Democratic Party (PDP) and the > > fledgling separatist movement of > > > the Hurriyat Conference off the guard, who were using > > the land issue to > > > manipulate public mind. Though the order came late; it > > has, however, not only > > > diffused the crisis, but also shown for the first time > > in recent decades, that a > > > crisis in Kashmir could be solved through bold and > > timely political action. It > > > also demonstrates to the Kashmiris that by resorting > > to non-violent action, > > > there is a room for manoeuvre and things can be > > changed through peaceful means. > > > Baring few incidents of stone pelting and burning of > > tyres, the massive > > > demonstrations were totally peaceful, without any > > involvement of the militant > > > groups, and without any communal flavour despite > > propaganda by various quarters > > > including mainstream Indian media. Sadly, the state > > response was not that peaceful; > > > five innocent lives were lost during the ten day > > demonstrations. However, by > > > Kashmiri standards, it could be classified as measured > > and therefore a change > > > from previous years, when the paramilitary forces > > would kill dozens on small or > > > no provocations. Incidentally, this is first such > > massive crisis in the last > > > two decades that has been solved peacefully and > > decisively, in public favour, taking > > > everyone by surprise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another very positive aspect that emerged > > > from this stand-off is that the Pakistani government > > maintained a studied > > > silence on the issue, thus not only keeping the spirit > > of reconciliation > > > between the two countries alive, but also showing > > maturity by not succumbing to > > > the pressure from the traditional hawkish elements > > within the establishment when > > > the temptation was real. This also > > > prevented any wild claims within the Indian government > > or Hindu militants to > > > blame Pakistan for a role in the crisis. Though, the > > Pakistani silence > > > irritated the United Jihad Council chief Syed > > Salahudin, who called it as 'surprising', > > > it was in the right spirit of peace that the two > > countries have embarked upon. > > > Successful dealing of the crisis demonstrated that if > > the right and positive > > > decisions are taken, keeping in view the aspirations > > of the Kashmiri people, it > > > is possible to deal with crises without involving > > Pakistan. It also bought > > > another stark point to the fore – that Pakistan is > > not always involved in all > > > the crisis in Kashmir; a paranoia that has swept > > across the Indian > > > establishment and offers an alibi to the politicians > > and security establishment > > > for their systemic or judgemental failures or biases. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The peaceful outcome also shows that if the > > > promises and commitments are followed in the right > > spirit, there is a room for > > > massive improvement in the situation without employing > > more than half a million > > > troops and two dozen secret agencies. If > > > the promises like 'zero tolerance for human rights > > violations' made by the > > > Prime Minister Manmohan Singh more than two years ago > > would have been observed, > > > the Kashmiri population would not have felt so > > distanced or disconnected from > > > the peace process that is now running in the fifth > > year. In addition, the economic > > > development of the Kashmir valley suffers massively > > either due to the massive > > > presence of the Army and paramilitary forces or the > > unspent millions that lye > > > wasted in the government coffers mainly due to the > > political rivalry between > > > the coalition partners – People's Democratic > > Party (PDP) and Congress; the > > > tussle added vitriol to fire caused by the current > > crisis, as the PDP tried to > > > capitalise on it despite being an equal partner in > > 'crime'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a classic act of political opportunism, the > > > PDP that was part of the cabinet decision that allowed > > the illegal transfer of > > > land to the SASB, decided to withdraw the support and > > blame its coalition > > > partner Congress for the whole issue. Only days ago, > > Kashmir's Forest Minister, > > > Qazi Mohammad Afzal, who belongs to the PDP openly > > boasted about his role in > > > effecting the land transfer. But when the public > > reaction grew, the PDP not > > > only withdrew support, but also issued public > > statements that sounded like > > > racial epithets designed to inflame the public opinion > > and hence provoke and enlarge > > > the constituency of protests and violence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The use of religion for political ends is not > > > new in south Asia. Mufti Mohammad Sayeed, the patron > > of PDP, has previously also > > > been accused of creating communal tensions for his > > electoral gains. In 1986, > > > during his time as Congress chief of Jammu and > > Kashmir, Mufti Sayeed allegedly engineered > > > communal riots against the Kashmiri Pandits in > > Anantnag district in which half > > > a dozen temples and homes of Hindus were damaged. This > > afforded Congress a > > > plausible reason to withdraw support from fledgling > > Ghulam Mohammad Shah government, > > > which was manufactured through defections from the > > National Conference at the > > > first place courtesy of Mufti Sayeed. Later, in 1990, > > when the massive public demonstrations > > > engulfed the Kashmir Valley, Mufti, as the Home > > Minister in the VP Singh government > > > deliberately sent Jagmohan as governor makingit > > difficult for Farooq Abdullah > > > government to function. Farooq resigned and Jagmohan > > got a free ride employing state > > > terror that gave rise to massive militancy – a > > phenomenon that still costs > > > lives in Kashmir. Perhaps Mufti Sayeed was wishing to > > witness the repeat of > > > 1990 to feed his insatiable desire for power, but the > > timely action by the Azad > > > government diffused the situation successfully, > > leaving him lost and vulnerable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Buoyed by the success and free from the > > > fetters of PDP conditionality, the Azad government has > > a huge task ahead. The > > > winter capital of the state, Jammu, has been virtually > > taken over by the Hindu militant > > > groups who have been attacking the government > > buildings, offices of the > > > political parties and threatening economic blockade of > > the Kashmiri Valley. The > > > government should not only deal with situation wisely, > > but also make sure that > > > no anti-Kashmiri rhetoric or action is allowed that > > will feed into the agenda > > > of extremist vision of a civilisational clash. It is > > hoped that all the political > > > parties will discard electoral opportunism and mount > > joint efforts to initiate > > > serious peace efforts. The successful handling of > > Kashmir's current crisis > > > offers a hope and a chance for the Congress government > > at the Centre to build > > > on this bold decision and work towards a final and > > durable solution of the > > > problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The writer is a security analyst based > > > in London. He is also editor of quarterly journal > > Kashmir Affairs and > > > webportal www.kashmiraffairs.org > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > Not happy with your email address?. > > > Get the one you really want - millions of new email > > addresses available now at Yahoo! > > http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Jul 3 19:14:03 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:44:03 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue In-Reply-To: <486B6D4B.2000802@gmail.com> References: <98f331e00806301826g1af66e90pacaacf4724a45a50@mail.gmail.com> <"48 6A2C87.8080008"@gmail.com> <486B6D4B.2000802@gmail.com> Message-ID: Very correct, those who say they are secular are actually seen very communal in day to day governance, but it is funny that if BJP unites all in the nation it is called communal just because united hindu votes would be more of potent force. ? As to administration of religious places it should be noted that rich funds of dioceses of any denomination of christian faith has absolutely no control as how it is used. recent news of about the priest of an evangelist was bashed up by his own commune in kerala, accounts were asked for 1499 crores misused by him. This news appeared in all the print but not in visual media. ! Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tapas Ray Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 5:28 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Radhika, > > You did not get my point. I was saying exactly the opposite of > what you > thought I was saying. My point was that Prakash Ray should be the > last > person to say that the government of J&K ought to get out of the > wakf > board/temple trust business. > > But I am not surprised, because he has done similar things in the > past - > spoken fiery words against Modi's "right-wing economic policies" > if I > remember correctly, while the party he is always defending, namely > CPI(M), has been condemned on that very issue in the state it > rules, > i.e., West Bengal. > > On the present issue, he is suggesting that the J&K government get > out > of the wakfs and temple trusts, even though in West Bengal a > minister > heads the wakf board, and that board was the focus of an > investigation > into a massive scandal a few years ago, involving CPI(M) people. > You > will see this if you read the news items I copied below my post. > > Hope this helps. > > Tapas > > > > > radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > Come on Tapas, don't tell us that there are no scams in west > Bengal, only difference is that the "journalist" know well if they > cover scams they are short lived to tell it with cadres having > thier say.! > > Regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Tapas Ray > > Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008 6:40 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > >> J&K should probably follow West Bengal's example, where a > minister > >> is > >> the chairman of the board. Anybody remember the wakf scam? The > >> more > >> things change, the more they remain the same ... from 2002 to > 2006 > >> ... > >> see the two clippings below. > >> > >> Tapas > >> > >> ------------------------ > >> http://health.rediff.com/news/2002/jul/05wakf.htm > >> > >> July 05, 2002 > >> > >> Wakf Board property scam has Left Front squirming > >> > >> Amin Babu Ahmed in Kolkata > >> > >> The G R Bhattacharya Commission report, which unveiled a scam > in > >> Wakf > >> property, has caught the ruling Left Front government in West > >> Bengal off > >> guard. > >> > >> After five years of thorough research and examination of > >> witnesses, the > >> commission concluded that there were major irregularities in > the > >> Wakf > >> Board during the regime of the Left Front. > >> > >> The report says that Wakf properties in the state, worth > millions > >> of > >> rupees, were given out on lease or rent to businessmen at > meagre > >> rates. > >> .... > >> > >> The report, made public this week six months after it was > placed > >> in the > >> assembly, has specifically named former chairman of the Wakf > Board > >> Hamimul Huda as an accused. > >> > >> Another former chairman of the board is also named, but no > other > >> person > >> has been specifically accused of wrongdoing. > >> > >> Incidentally, a few days before the report was tabled in the > >> assembly, > >> Huda was arrested on charges of questionable deals pertaining > to > >> Wakf > >> property and this has found mention in Minorities Development > >> Minister > >> Mohammad Salim's Action Taken Report (in response to the > findings > >> of the > >> G R Bhattacharya Commission's findings). > >> > >> Since there are no proper records of the board's properties, it > is > >> difficult to gauge the extent of the scam, Salim said. > >> > >> The opposition alleges that the scam involves approximately Rs > 10 > >> billion (Rs 1000 crore). > >> > >> "How can they be so specific when the survey is still > incomplete," > >> asks > >> Salim ... > >> --------------------- > >> > >> http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=207459 > >> > >> October 30, 2006 > >> > >> Kolkata, October 30: The Waqf Board today appointed Abdus > Sattar, > >> state > >> minister for minority development and madrasa education, as its > >> new > >> chairman. Sattar will be replacing Hannan Mollah, CPI-M MP, who > >> remained > >> in the post for two consecutive terms since 2000. > >> > >> According to sources in the department, Mollah was removed > >> following > >> allegations of corruption against him. > >> > >> Advertisement > >> Sattar, however, refuted such allegations and said ... > >> ------------------------- > >> > >>> It is to be noted that the Governor heads the Hindu shrine boards > >>> and the chief minister heads the Muslim Wakfs. The government > >> must get out > >>> of this kind of control and must restrict itself to provide > the > >> needed> support to public who visit shrines, temples, mosques > and > >> other kinds of > >>> religious places and festivals/fairs. There must be a > rethinking > >> on the tax > >>> benefits extended to the religious bodies earning crores and > >> crores of > >>> rupees. Such changes in policies should be applied to all over > >> the country, > >>> not only in the J & K. > >>> Regards, > >>> > >>> Prakash > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> list > >> List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > > List archive: > From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Jul 3 19:15:57 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:45:57 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Solving Amarnath: New Hope in Kashmir In-Reply-To: <47e122a70807020418o737c232l42c0b1b1e39de479@mail.gmail.com> References: <632009.16867.qm@web27803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <252538.76398.qm@web27804.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <47e122a70807020418o737c232l42c0b1b1e39de479@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, none of us hold brief for BJP, but the real threat is not BJP but Con-gress which is supposed to bedissolved after freedom, but retained for the game of dividing votes on caste, language, faith and region. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: inder salim Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 4:49 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Solving Amarnath: New Hope in Kashmir To: reader-list at sarai.net > now, the real threat is BJP > which is trying its best to manufacture Ayodhya like crises for a > fradulent return to > power > > > > On 7/2/08, Kashmir Affairs wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Solving > > Amarnath: A New Hope in Kashmir > > > > > > Murtaza > > Shibli > > > > > > [www.kashmiraffairs.org] > > > > > > > > The bold decision of the Congress government > > led by Ghulam Nabi Azad in Srinagar must be commended. By > revoking the land > > order to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB) that was illegal > at the first > > place, Azad has not only shown great courage and decision making > skills to deal > > with a crisis that was spiralling out of control, a la 1990, but > also taken > > both the People's Democratic Party (PDP) and the fledgling > separatist movement of > > the Hurriyat Conference off the guard, who were using the land > issue to > > manipulate public mind. Though the order came late; it has, > however, not only > > diffused the crisis, but also shown for the first time in recent > decades, that a > > crisis in Kashmir could be solved through bold and timely > political action. It > > also demonstrates to the Kashmiris that by resorting to non- > violent action, > > there is a room for manoeuvre and things can be changed through > peaceful means. > > Baring few incidents of stone pelting and burning of tyres, the > massive> demonstrations were totally peaceful, without any > involvement of the militant > > groups, and without any communal flavour despite propaganda by > various quarters > > including mainstream Indian media. Sadly, the state response was > not that peaceful; > > five innocent lives were lost during the ten day demonstrations. > However, by > > Kashmiri standards, it could be classified as measured and > therefore a change > > from previous years, when the paramilitary forces would kill > dozens on small or > > no provocations. Incidentally, this is first such massive crisis > in the last > > two decades that has been solved peacefully and decisively, in > public favour, taking > > everyone by surprise. > > > > > > > > > > > > Another very positive aspect that emerged > > from this stand-off is that the Pakistani government maintained > a studied > > silence on the issue, thus not only keeping the spirit of > reconciliation> between the two countries alive, but also showing > maturity by not succumbing to > > the pressure from the traditional hawkish elements within the > establishment when > > the temptation was real. This also > > prevented any wild claims within the Indian government or Hindu > militants to > > blame Pakistan for a role in the crisis. Though, the Pakistani > silence> irritated the United Jihad Council chief Syed Salahudin, > who called it as 'surprising', > > it was in the right spirit of peace that the two countries have > embarked upon. > > Successful dealing of the crisis demonstrated that if the right > and positive > > decisions are taken, keeping in view the aspirations of the > Kashmiri people, it > > is possible to deal with crises without involving Pakistan. It > also bought > > another stark point to the fore – that Pakistan is not always > involved in all > > the crisis in Kashmir; a paranoia that has swept across the Indian > > establishment and offers an alibi to the politicians and > security establishment > > for their systemic or judgemental failures or biases. > > > > > > > > > > > > The peaceful outcome also shows that if the > > promises and commitments are followed in the right spirit, there > is a room for > > massive improvement in the situation without employing more than > half a million > > troops and two dozen secret agencies. If > > the promises like 'zero tolerance for human rights violations' > made by the > > Prime Minister Manmohan Singh more than two years ago would have > been observed, > > the Kashmiri population would not have felt so distanced or > disconnected from > > the peace process that is now running in the fifth year. In > addition, the economic > > development of the Kashmir valley suffers massively either due > to the massive > > presence of the Army and paramilitary forces or the unspent > millions that lye > > wasted in the government coffers mainly due to the political > rivalry between > > the coalition partners – People's Democratic Party (PDP) and > Congress; the > > tussle added vitriol to fire caused by the current crisis, as > the PDP tried to > > capitalise on it despite being an equal partner in 'crime'. > > > > > > > > > > > > In a classic act of political opportunism, the > > PDP that was part of the cabinet decision that allowed the > illegal transfer of > > land to the SASB, decided to withdraw the support and blame its > coalition> partner Congress for the whole issue. Only days ago, > Kashmir's Forest Minister, > > Qazi Mohammad Afzal, who belongs to the PDP openly boasted about > his role in > > effecting the land transfer. But when the public reaction grew, > the PDP not > > only withdrew support, but also issued public statements that > sounded like > > racial epithets designed to inflame the public opinion and hence > provoke and enlarge > > the constituency of protests and violence. > > > > > > > > > > > > The use of religion for political ends is not > > new in south Asia. Mufti Mohammad Sayeed, the patron of PDP, has > previously also > > been accused of creating communal tensions for his electoral > gains. In 1986, > > during his time as Congress chief of Jammu and Kashmir, Mufti > Sayeed allegedly engineered > > communal riots against the Kashmiri Pandits in Anantnag district > in which half > > a dozen temples and homes of Hindus were damaged. This afforded > Congress a > > plausible reason to withdraw support from fledgling Ghulam > Mohammad Shah government, > > which was manufactured through defections from the National > Conference at the > > first place courtesy of Mufti Sayeed. Later, in 1990, when the > massive public demonstrations > > engulfed the Kashmir Valley, Mufti, as the Home Minister in the > VP Singh government > > deliberately sent Jagmohan as governor making it difficult for > Farooq Abdullah > > government to function. Farooq resigned and Jagmohan got a free > ride employing state > > terror that gave rise to massive militancy – a phenomenon that > still costs > > lives in Kashmir. Perhaps Mufti Sayeed was wishing to witness > the repeat of > > 1990 to feed his insatiable desire for power, but the timely > action by the Azad > > government diffused the situation successfully, leaving him lost > and vulnerable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Buoyed by the success and free from the > > fetters of PDP conditionality, the Azad government has a huge > task ahead. The > > winter capital of the state, Jammu, has been virtually taken > over by the Hindu militant > > groups who have been attacking the government buildings, offices > of the > > political parties and threatening economic blockade of the > Kashmiri Valley. The > > government should not only deal with situation wisely, but also > make sure that > > no anti-Kashmiri rhetoric or action is allowed that will feed > into the agenda > > of extremist vision of a civilisational clash. It is hoped that > all the political > > parties will discard electoral opportunism and mount joint > efforts to initiate > > serious peace efforts. The successful handling of Kashmir's > current crisis > > offers a hope and a chance for the Congress government at the > Centre to build > > on this bold decision and work towards a final and durable > solution of the > > problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > The writer is a security analyst based > > in London. He is also editor of quarterly journal Kashmir > Affairs and > > webportal www.kashmiraffairs.org > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Not happy with your email address?. > > Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses > available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 19:39:51 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 19:39:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Pligrims ! Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807030709o57a7004y8bad94f2d9db63c4@mail.gmail.com> http://thekashmir.wordpress.com/2008/07/03/haj-pilgrims-vs-amarnath-pilgrims/ From mail at shivamvij.com Thu Jul 3 20:33:11 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 20:33:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amarnath row reignites Azadi sentiments Message-ID: <9c06aab30807030803x4bec38cer3b90a7001304f956@mail.gmail.com> [As published this morning] Amarnath row reignites azadi sentiment Shivam Vij / Srinagar Sakaal Times / 3 July http://epaper.sakaaltimes.com The writing on the wall is clear: The Kashmiri demand for independence from India is not over yet. Separatist leaders and commoners alike have hailed the withdrawal of the land transfer order as the victory of the Kashmiri people and called to revitalise the azadi movement. This is clearly a turning point in the 20-year-old militant struggle. There is also talk of boycotting the coming assembly polls and reunification of the two factions of the Hurriyat Conference. The mood was reflected in every local daily's frontpage headlines. PEOPLE WIN, said Greater Kashmir. Kashmir Savours Victory, said the Kashmir Observer. Kashmir win, said Amroze Kashmir. VICTORY! said Etalaat. People win, Order revoked, said Kashmir Monitor. The emphasis that it was a people's agitation rather than one of leaders is shared by everyone. The sentiment is shared by every taxi driver, shopkeeper, houseboat-owner, journalist — too widespread to be brushed away as anybody's political gimmick. The agitation was lead by the ACALT committee which had, apart from Hurriyat leaders, apolitical religious leaders, representatives from trade and transporters' organisation's, the Kashmir Chambers of Commerce and the Bar Council. Vehement support was given by the Valley's Sikhs and most Kashmiri Pandit organisations as well. The biggest winner is Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who was the first to begin mobilising the public with a signature campaign. In a press conference on Wednesday, he emphasised: "This punctures New Delhi's theory that our movement is standing on Pakistani support," he said, adding, "did you see a single agitator using violence?" "The movement lives on in the hearts and minds of the people," he told Sakaal Times. The relatively smooth rule of the PDP-Congress coalition and the decline in militancy had led observers to believe that people's participation in polls could increase. "Nobody will vote now," said Etalaat editor Zahiruddin. In fact NC's Omar Abdullah is believed to have said as much to the NSA in his meeting with him in Delhi. "Mainstream politicians in the Valley who believed the movement was on its deathbed have got a rude jolt," he said. "This is very unpleasant for the Indian government and intelligence agencies who were already talking of a postconflict scenario," says human rights activist Parvez Imroz. From mail at shivamvij.com Thu Jul 3 20:50:36 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 20:50:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Kashmiri Pandits should be the ones running Amarnath Board' Message-ID: <9c06aab30807030820i455ee117l53180ccd5cb5bb48@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, This is my third day in Srinagar and following the Delhi media on the internet, it seems to me that not much has come out about the stand taken by Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs who reside in the Valley. They were supporting the demand to revoke the land transfer order! A demonstration by Sikh leaders here was stopped by the police, but demonstrations by Pandits in Jammu and Delhi, who always complain of being ignored by the media, have been duly highlighted. This imbalance is also reflected on the Reader-List. If anyone's voice is being marginalised in the media discourse, it is that of communal harmony from the Valley, that of Sikhs and Pandits... here is one report I found in that direction. Will post more. best shivam o o o Keep politicians out of shrine board: PDP leader http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=136527 Senior PDP leader, Dr Roop Lal Sharma has advised that Shri Amarnath Shrine Board affairs be handled by top journalists, lawyers, social activists from Kashmiri Pandit community. He stressed that politicians must be kept away from the Board.. SENIOR PEOPLE'S Democratic Party (PDP) leader Dr Roop Lal Sharma has expressed serious concern over the developments in Jammu and Kashmir pertaining to the controversy on land transfer to Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB) and has demanded handing over of the Board to Kashmiri Pandits for management. In a statement issued in Jammu, Dr Sharma has said that the controversy has given a bad name to the state adding, it does not augur well for the secular character of the state and the government should act fast to resolve the issue before it snowballs into a major communal flare-up. Dr Sharma has said that Amarnath shrine belongs to state, particularly Kashmiri Pandits, who are the original inhabitants of the state and the local population of the area, who had been managing the affairs of the shrine for the past many decades. He said that only Kashmiri Pandits have the right to manage the affairs of the shrine besides, the local population of Maliks of Batkote so that the 'yatra' (pilgrimage) is not communalised by some vested interests in the administration. Dr Sharma has also warned the communal elements within the Hindu and the Muslim societies to refrain from giving the 'yatra' a communal colour and has condemned the attack on tourists in Kashmir besides, killing of a Kashmiri youth in the police firing in Kashmir. Elaborating further, Dr Sharma said that the affairs of the shrine should be entrusted to select Kashmiri Pandits comprising known journalists, lawyers and known social activists adding, the political class should be kept at an arms length from the board. Dr Sharma also said that even Kashmiri Pandit leaders, who are affiliated to various groups should be consulted but not given the reins because that will further divide the community, thus harming the interests Hailing the futuristic vision of the PDP patron, Mufti Mohd Sayeed for suggesting the handing over of the shrine to Kashmiri Pandits, Dr Sharma said that the government must act fast on his suggestion considering the fact that Sayeed has always proven right in his assessment of the situations. Dr Sharma has also called for an end to violence and asked Muslim brethren not to fall prey to some over zealous communalists who were vitiating the secular character of Kashmiris, thereby damaging the reputation the world over. He said such incidents would take the situation back to 1990s, thus causing immense damage to the economy of the Kashmiris. From mail at shivamvij.com Thu Jul 3 20:52:43 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 20:52:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat Message-ID: <9c06aab30807030822v65264b07p88ebd5cc5073e451@mail.gmail.com> Tolerant Kashmiris 26 June, 2008 08:10:48 http://www.etalaat.net/english/viewpoint/editorial/1111.html Vested interests are all out to communalize the on-going agitation against transfer of forest land to the Amarnath Shrine Board. Time and again it has been made clear that the on-going agitation is not against the Yatra or the Yatries. The agitation is against politicization of the Yatra. Kashmiris want the government to entrust the job of conducting and facilitating Yatra to the local people who have been conducting it effectively since 1860. To understand the on-going agitation against land transfer in its right perspectives one has to look into the history of Kashmir.When important decisions concerning the future of Kashmir were taken Kashmiris were always ignored. In 1947 a decision was imposed on the reluctant people and since then the trend continues. In early 60s the government of India omitted Article 238 from Indian constitution and thus rendered article 370 infructious. The Article 370 which guarantees a special status to the state of Jammu Kashmir reads: "Not withstanding any thing nothing in Article 238 shall apply to the state of Jammu Kashmir." Article 370 is still there but article 238 which contained the heart and soul of 370 is not there in the constitution. Kashmiris to this day do not know about this fraud. Similarly the government of India abolished the permit system which required the non-state subjects to obtain a permit for entering the state. Again the people were not taken into confidence. In 1975 a popular movement was strangled. Again the people did not protest. In 1978 the draconian public safety act (PSA) was framed. People did not protest. In 1984 TADA was extended to the state. People remained silent. The Gulmarg issue shook them and the transfer of land did the miracle. Even this time the government had taken the people for granted. People are angry but they have not thrown caution to the winds. They have upheld the high traditions of tolerance and have not harmed any Yatri or a tourist. This is exactly what Islam teaches them. The Yatries are welcome and so are the tourists. Kashmiris are known for their hospitality and they will not disappoint the pilgrims and other guests. History is witness to the fact that Kashmiris have always protected their non-Muslim brethren. Hundreds of instances can be quoted to prove the point. However, the following incident shall suffice. A person who retired as the Chief Conservator of Forests lived in Shahr-e-Khaas during his college days. One day while on his way to the college he was intercepted by a crowd. Taken for a Bakra (A supporter of Mirwaiz Yusuf Shah) he was given sound thrashing. Somehow he ran away but only to be caught by another violent group. This time he was taken for a Sher (Supporter of Sheikh Abdullah) and beaten to pulp. Again he managed his escape. When caught for the third time, he shouted: "I am a Pandit." Nobody touched him this time. He was given safe passage. From mail at shivamvij.com Thu Jul 3 20:55:23 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 20:55:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sikhs support Geelani [Rising Kashmir] Message-ID: <9c06aab30807030825y6e73ee15ra98d4be990629dd7@mail.gmail.com> Sikhs support Geelani Abid Bashir [Rising Kashmir] http://www.kashmirwatch.com/showheadlines.php?subaction=showfull&id=1214399557&archive=&start_from=&ucat=1&var0news=value0news Srinagar, June 24: Demanding the land transfer decision should be revoked forthwith, State president of All India Shromani Akali Dal Joginder Singh Shan on Tuesday extended full support to the Hurriyat (G) Chairman Syed Ali Geelani against his fight against the allotment of 800 kanals of forest land to Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB) at Baltal. "Every inch of Kashmir belongs to its people-Muslims, Sikhs and Kashmir Pandits. We will not allow the sale of our land at any cost. We support Geelani's stand against SASB. We, too, feel that Amarnath Yatra should be handed over to Kashmiri Pandits. The decision of land transfer should be revoked immediately," Shan told Rising Kashmir on the sidelines of a press conference here. He said Kashmiri Pandits are capable enough to handle the Yatra. "As we are taking care of our Gurdwaras, Kashmiri Pandits can easily handle Yatra and take care of the cave as well," Shan said. "As far the tented accommodations for Yatris, local Muslims can do that given their expertise." He said, SASB has always been in controversy from the day one it was formed. "It (SASB) has triggered communal frenzy in the state. Police is now using force against the peaceful protesters, which is wrong. One person was killed in police firing, we strongly condemn that," Shan said. He said Sikhs were not against the Yatra, but transferring forest land to the SASB that has not even a single Kashmiri member is highly condemnable. "Why it became a need to transfer the land to SASB this year only as the Yatra has been going on for past several decades," questioned Shan. He said Kashmiri people have suffered a lot over the past 18 years of continuous strife. "We (Sikhs) also have suffered immensely. We have been suffering in Kashmir since Dogra rule. Muslims, Pandits and Sikhs have gone through hell here," Shan said. "But the day is not far, when truth will prevail and atrocities will end." From mail at shivamvij.com Thu Jul 3 20:57:02 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 20:57:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Thank you, Governor' - editorial in Etalaat Message-ID: <9c06aab30807030827t29e19cbbk22d3f6205842b79@mail.gmail.com> Thank you Governor 24 June, 2008 09:00:00 http://www.etalaat.net/english/viewpoint/editorial/1039.html The Action Committee against Land Transfer has a strong argument when it says that the local Pandits must be entrusted with the job of facilitating and conducting the Yatra. They have done it in the past and, therefore, have the experience to conduct a smooth Yatra. There is absolutely no need of politicizing a pilgrimage which till yesterday was a symbol of communal harmony. Entrusting the job to local Pandits shall restore sanctity of the pilgrimage. The involvement of the Rajbhawan has created problems for New Delhi. There is a silver lining for Kashmiris in the transfer of forest land to the SASB. The SASB tried its best to dub Kashmiri Muslims as communalists and religious fanatics but failed. The world knows that Kashmiri Muslims have always upheld the high traditions of universal brotherhood. In 1947 when the whole of sub-continent was hot Kashmiris remained cool and protected their non-Muslim brethren. This was acknowledged by the father of Indian nation, MKC Gandhi. As far as Amarnath Yatra is concerned, the local Muslims have always taken an active part in the pilgrimage. There have been occasions when Kashmiri Muslims have protected the pilgrims at the cost of their own lives. The Muslims used to carry the pilgrims on their shoulders. The Muslims used to feed the Yatries. The Muslims helped them on the difficult terrain. But those were the good old days. Now the situation has changed. The Raj Bhawan has deliberately excluded the local Muslims. It has not only deprived them of their livelihood but caused a serious injury to their sentiments as well. The area from Baltal to Cave is ecologically very fragile. Similarly the route via Pahalgam is equally fragile. The heavy rush of pilgrims is going to have an adverse effect on the environment. It also hinders with the process of formation of the lingum. The Shrine Board should have followed the Uttarakand Chief Minister who despite severe opposition from Hindu fundamentalists restricted the number of Yatries to a glacier in the state. This indicates that the Shrine Board has a hidden agenda. It is not interested in the Yatra but something else. If the Governor intends to Indianise Kashmiris, he is destined to fail in his misadventure. For the past sixty years the army could not do it. The puppet regimes installed by New Delhi from time to time resorted to administrative and legislative terrorism but nothing has changed. The alienation is as deep as it was in 1947. The misadventures of the shrine Board, rather Rajbhawan are not going to serve any purpose. The reaction that the transfer of land has evoked does not fit anywhere in the scheme of New Delhi. The Governor must have been taken to task for putting Kashmir on fire at a `crucial' juncture. The transfer of Land and the arrogance of the Shrine Board chairman forced the warring factions of the Hurriyat Conference to forge unity much to the pleasure of the people of Kashmir. It also revived the movement which people by and large believed had almost died down. The movement has once again reached a stage where people willingly come forward to strengthen it. The land transferred to the SASB shall remain in Kashmir. It shall not be taken to New Delhi or elsewhere. But its transfer has done the much needed miracle. Thank you SASB. Thank you Governor. From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Jul 3 21:36:05 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 21:36:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amarnath row reignites Azadi sentiments In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807030803x4bec38cer3b90a7001304f956@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030803x4bec38cer3b90a7001304f956@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Shivam, Thank you for your reports from the valley. They help us get a clearer image of the situation and what people are thinking and saying. best Shuddha On 03-Jul-08, at 8:33 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > [As published this morning] > > > Amarnath row reignites azadi sentiment > > Shivam Vij / Srinagar > Sakaal Times / 3 July > http://epaper.sakaaltimes.com > > > The writing on the wall is clear: The Kashmiri demand for independence > from India is not over yet. Separatist leaders and commoners alike > have hailed the withdrawal of the land transfer order as the victory > of the Kashmiri people and called to revitalise the azadi movement. > > This is clearly a turning point in the 20-year-old militant struggle. > There is also talk of boycotting the coming assembly polls and > reunification of the two factions of the Hurriyat Conference. The mood > was reflected in every local daily's frontpage headlines. PEOPLE WIN, > said Greater Kashmir. Kashmir Savours Victory, said the Kashmir > Observer. Kashmir win, said Amroze Kashmir. VICTORY! said Etalaat. > People win, Order revoked, said Kashmir Monitor. > > The emphasis that it was a people's agitation rather than one of > leaders is shared by everyone. The sentiment is shared by every taxi > driver, shopkeeper, houseboat-owner, journalist — too widespread > to be > brushed away as anybody's political gimmick. The agitation was lead by > the ACALT committee which had, apart from Hurriyat leaders, apolitical > religious leaders, representatives from trade and transporters' > organisation's, the Kashmir Chambers of Commerce and the Bar Council. > > Vehement support was given by the Valley's Sikhs and most Kashmiri > Pandit organisations as well. The biggest winner is Hurriyat leader > Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who was the first to begin mobilising the > public with a signature campaign. In a press conference on Wednesday, > he emphasised: "This punctures New Delhi's theory that our movement is > standing on Pakistani support," he said, adding, "did you see a single > agitator using violence?" "The movement lives on in the hearts and > minds of the people," he told Sakaal Times. > > The relatively smooth rule of the PDP-Congress coalition and the > decline in militancy had led observers to believe that people's > participation in polls could increase. "Nobody will vote now," said > Etalaat editor Zahiruddin. In fact NC's Omar Abdullah is believed to > have said as much to the NSA in his meeting with him in Delhi. > > "Mainstream politicians in the Valley who believed the movement was on > its deathbed have got a rude jolt," he said. "This is very unpleasant > for the Indian government and intelligence agencies who were already > talking of a postconflict scenario," says human rights activist Parvez > Imroz. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 22:09:45 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 12:39:45 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Open letter to the prime minister of India toscrapthe Indo US nuclear Deal References: <"321 44e990807010640s18d1927eibc2baf16edca12e8"@mail.gmail.com> <486BB5FE.8080001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <018a01c8dd2b$6b433d00$6400a8c0@taraprakash> Hi all. I am not competent enough to pass judgement on the deal. But what I am sure about is that The true problem of some of the respondents on this thread is that the deal is happening in the Congress rule. The deal might bring the Congress, which has been trying to propitiate RSS for sometime, closer to some of the disgruntled Parivar members. It should not be forgotten that the BJP government has always been very close to the US. When Atal (ji) was the prime minister, he would contact the US president for complaining about what he (or BJP government) thought wrong doings of Pakistan. Like a kid complaining to the teacher, "sir he hit with me with a chalk". Due to some secret RSS admonition, Now the "Bhishma pitamahas" (Manmohona's term for Atal Bihari) is silent. Well, you hardly hear the Bhishamas, Dronas and other leaders of the BJP talk about the deal these days. Why will they when the task of communalizing the deal has been taken over by the likes of Pandhe and Mayavati? Both of them have publicly stated that the deal will be anti-Muslim. The BJP is these days talking about saving the secular structure of the country. It was hilarious to heear Prakash Javadekar talking about saving constitution and the secular structure of India on the eve of the India band on the Amarnath issue. It was Congress in the leadership of Rajiv Gandhi who first opened the Pandora's box by laying the foundation stone for the Temple in Ayodhya. It is Congress again opening the Pandora's box by first letting the governor give the land in J&K to Amarnath Shrine Board and then revoking the order, in the process polarizing the community and hurting both the communities. Again the Pandora's box is going to bring great electoral profit for the BJP. When it comes back to power, it is very very likely that it will, it is going to renegotiate the deal if the Congress is unable to bring the deal to fruition this time. If the deal is operational before the new government, BJP is not going to overturn it. So perhaps Radhikarjun, it is too early to criticize the deal, lest you should regret your stand later. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Tapas Ray" Cc: "Sarai Reader List" Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 9:28 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Open letter to the prime minister of India toscrapthe Indo US nuclear Deal > Hi, > > thapas has made very interesting observation about the nuke deal and its > energy point of view. > > Simple answer to that is governance is about welfare and life of its > citizens in the nation. Nuke deal is simply put an obligation of an > individual to please his master and miss, for his survival in office. PM > is all out with this one point agenda, not in the national interest. here > his interest to be in office till the prince charming is ready mentally > and physically to loot is the aim. So now he is in no position to say NO > to Sonia who is, if lost in election go back to her Home in Turin, > recently refurbished by none other than a official ex chief of SIT staying > in Italy as officer on special duty.If she is able to keep the regional > satraps together in the guise of secular forces, for their ommissions > commissions, she will annoint her son, is the idea she has. The hangers on > and sycophants need the party to be in power as otherwise most of them are > rootless wonders if it comes to elections as the fragile fragmented > votebanks is most hostile to all the" national" parti > es, hence this drama. > > None of the political spectrum are really concerned about "national > Interest" as such. If that be so, commercial dealsafter 123 agreement have > to be noted that all have to be routed thru washington, with trillions of > dollars worth plant and machinery for harvesting the n-energy. > I do not know why this N-deal is called a deal as it is for sale off of > national interest. > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tapas Ray > Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 10:38 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Open letter to the prime minister of India > toscrapthe Indo US nuclear Deal > Cc: Sarai Reader List > >> Radhika, Partha, Asit, and others, >> >> Whether the nuclear deal is a sell-out or not, and if so, whether >> this >> sell-out is in India's interest, and what kind of interest that >> may be, >> are questions that can be debated. One may also argue over the >> possibility of kickbacks for our national "leadership" - currently >> Congress - being the real incentive. To me, however, these are >> secondary >> issues. The primary question is, whether nuclear power per se is >> an >> acceptable option or or not. (I will keep the weapons issue aside >> in >> this post.) >> >> Before addressing the primary issue, let me talk about one of the >> secondary ones - the question of economic benefit. Just as there >> are >> studies which show that nuclear power is economically viable, >> there are >> others which show that nuclear power plants are not what they are >> touted >> to be in that respect. Also, it can be argued that clean >> technologies, >> especially solar, could have been incomparably more viable by now >> than >> they are, if even a small fraction of the investment that has >> been, and >> is being made in nuclear R&D, had gone to them. At least one >> reason why >> this did not happen, I would think, is that there is no direct >> military >> use of solar power - unless, like Archimedes, one wants to burn up >> the >> adversary's tanks, ships, aircraft and missiles with focused sunlight. >> >> As for the bad economics of nuclear power, please see these two >> studies/papers. The first is by "tree-hugging" Greenpeace, but the >> second is by a university policy research centre in the UK: >> >> The economics of nuclear power >> Greenpeace >> Research report 2007 >> http://www.greenpeace.org/raw/content/international/press/reports/the-economics-of-nuclear-power.pdf >> >> The economics of nuclear power: analysis of recent studies >> Steve Thomas >> (University of Greenwich) >> http://www.psiru.org/reports/2005-09-E-Nuclear.pdf >> >> >> While you are at it, you could also take a look at these, written >> by an >> IIT Kanpur alumnus who went on to earn a PhD in physics from >> Boston >> University: >> http://www.outlookindia.com/author.asp?name=M.V.+Ramana >> and >> Nuclear Power in India: Failed Past, Dubious Future >> M. V. Ramana >> http://www.npec-web.org/Essays/Ramana-NuclearPowerInIndia.pdf >> >> >> Now the primary question: the acceptability of nuclear power as >> such. In >> my opinion, it would be unacceptable even if its economics were >> excellent, and the argument that it is a quick means of achieving >> "development" does not change anything. There are too many risks, >> some >> of which are unknown. But some are known. I have quoted below from >> two >> articles published in major journals, which point this out. The >> one by >> Mangano and others, is about known cancer risks from nuclear power >> plants in the USA and the West. I believe there have been similar >> findings in India, too. >> >> The other article - by Nusbaum - is about the risks involved in >> disposing of the radioactive waste of power plants. If you read >> the >> entire article, you will see that Nusbaum is not against nuclear >> power >> plants as such, hence is not what some of you might call a tree- >> hugging >> fundamentalist. >> >> (If any of you want the entire articles, let me know and I will >> email >> them to you. I am not posting them in full, so as not to clutter >> the list.) >> >> Note that the risks discussed in these articles are related to >> normal >> operations with proper safety measures in place. I am not even >> talking >> about the effect of accidents, of which Chernobyl and Three-Mile >> Island >> have been the worst so far. There is plenty on the web on these >> things too. >> >> A very common argument is that present-day society is "risk >> society", >> and there are risks involved in any technology. What this argument >> overlooks is that the risks involved in nuclear technology >> (peaceful >> ones) is of a completely different order from other energy >> technologies, >> such as hydrocarbons. And by the time the human race wakes up to >> these >> risks, it will be to late. The damage will have been done. This >> has been >> the case with hydrocarbons (global warming, lung diseases, etc.), >> which >> the developed industrial countries - none anywhere near the USA in >> scale >> or intensity - burned up for decades. Only, in the case of nuclear >> power, the effects are perhaps incomparably more disastrous. >> >> This leads us to another question: if all this is already known, >> why do >> policymakers in many countries (including India, USA, and recently >> UK >> after a lull) show such enthusiasm for nuclear power? In my >> opinion, it >> is the attraction for new technology at any cost, which is a >> product of >> the instrumental rationality that is typical of modernity. This >> rationality makes these policymakers ignore "tree-hugging" values >> and >> accept the so-called gains, however short-term these may be, and >> however >> disputed the cost-benefit analyses on which the perception of >> these >> "gains" may be based. >> >> Of course, coming back to Radhika, there may be a little cream to >> skim >> off, too! >> >> Tapas >> >> >> -------------------------------- >> Elevated childhood cancer incidence proximate to U.S. nuclear >> power plants. >> Joseph J. Mangano, Janette Sherman, Carolyn Chang, Amie Dave, >> Elyssa >> Feinberg and Marina Frimer. >> Archives of Environmental Health 58.2 (Feb 2003): p74(9). >> >> Abstract: >> >> Numerous reports document elevated cancer rates among children >> living >> near nuclear facilities in various nations. Little research has >> examined >> U.S. rates near the nation's 103 operating reactors. This study >> determined that cancer incidence for children < 10 yr of age who >> live >> within 30 mi (48 km) of each of 14 nuclear plants in the eastern >> United >> States (49 counties with a population > 16.8 million) exceeds the >> national average. The excess 12.4% risk suggests that 1 in 9 >> cancers >> among children who reside near nuclear reactors is linked to >> radioactive >> emissions. If cancer incidence in 5 western states is used as a >> baseline, the ratio is closer to 1 in 5. Incidence is particularly >> elevated for leukemia. Childhood cancer mortality exceeds the >> national >> average in 7 of the 14 study areas. >> >> ------------------------------ >> Radiation risk to future generations from long-lived radioactive >> waste.Neil J. Nusbaum >> Journal of Community Health 31.5 (Oct 2006): p363(5). >> >> ... >> >> The physical characteristics and integrity of the storage facility >> include features such as the overlying vegetation (2) that, in the >> absence of ongoing human agricultural maintenance, are subject to >> substantial variation with changes in conditions such as local >> rainfall. >> It remains highly speculative whether any arrangement for storage >> which >> we as a species can now devise would remain functional for ten >> radioactive half lives, until the time when the decay process is >> 99.9% >> complete (even leaving aside any additional decay time for >> radioactive >> daughters). Indeed, for some of the longer-lived waste products, >> even a >> single half life of decay would require a time frame substantially >> longer the age of the most ancient surviving human architectural >> creations. While we can be confident of the shape of natural >> radioactive >> decay curves over geologic time, the time to failure for >> individual >> human artifacts is much less predictable. Accordingly, one must >> harbor >> some skepticism that a single repository in the Utah desert will >> remain >> intact for even a single half life of one of the important longer >> lived >> transuranuium isotopes (Plutonium-239, half life of 2.4 x >> [10.sup.4] >> years.). (3) >> >> Of the seven wonders of the ancient world, only one (4) has proven >> able >> to persist relatively intact for even a few millennia. The sole >> survivor, the pyramids of Giza, was and is located in proximity to >> a >> major metropolis. This proximity has kept it under human >> observation, >> but also has made the structure subject to deterioration from >> adjacent >> human activity. It is not surprising perhaps that attention has >> focused >> on site placement distant from current population centers. >> >> The potential effects of long lived radioactive waste storage also >> involve consideration of the potential economic cost and safety >> hazard >> to those in the region, both the large numbers now living in Las >> Vegas, >> and the now far smaller number who live in closer physical >> proximity to >> the Yucca Mountain site. It seems speculative at best to assume >> that any >> of the desert terrain of the American West will remain sparsely >> populated centuries into the future, merely because such climate >> seems >> inhospitable under present levels of technology and levels of >> population >> pressure. In the medium to long term, in addition, patterns of >> climate >> may also change as a consequence of phenomena such as the >> increasing >> worldwide burden of greenhouse gases, and could make current >> desert >> areas more desirable (either by change in their own local climate >> for >> the better, or by change for the worse in climate in other areas). >> >> The recent efforts at emergency management of the Hurricane >> Katrina >> relief effort make it prudent to consider how efforts might be >> coordinated to contain and control any degradation of the >> integrity of a >> national repository of long lived radioactive waste, in particular >> such >> as at Yucca Flats in Nevada. >> >> ... >> >> --------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: >> > Hi Partha, >> > >> > It is sincerly hoped that you have read the statement by the >> nuclear scientists who have served India for years on the issue of >> this N-deal, where in they clearly maintain that this deal amounts >> to all commercial purchases being controlled by washington and >> India would have to be at the mercy of washington even after the >> NSG agrees to supply uranium, which exactly is objectionable. >> Also, the party which ruled the nation forfifty years has all the >> deals with kickbacks to the first family which histroy has >> recorded well, be it PL 480 funds during the nehru and his mixed >> economy, or Indira and her poisoned predecessor Shastriji, and >> russian deals or the latter version of mr. Clean with Bofors who >> later had to pay the price but still his uncle Q got the freezed >> funds thanks to his queen. >> > >> > Moot point is nuclear energy is costliest and to set up >> plants we need to spend billions for long period of 25 years with >> lot many contracts and lots more kickbacks, hence the Pm is keen >> for this deal with US, being Mr. Honest, he is out there to prove >> how dishonest he is to the national interest with his personal >> loyalty to the first family.! >> > >> > Regards. >> > From: Partha Dasgupta >> > Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008 7:11 pm >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Open letter to the prime minister of >> India to scrapthe Indo US nuclear Deal >> > To: Asit asitreds >> > Cc: Sarai Reader List >> > >> >> Hi Asit, >> >> >> >> Just for a moment, lets not wear the blinkers of "US >> Imperialism" and >> >> look at what the scenario is and what the options are: >> >> >> >> 1. India has already started the Nuclear Race with Pakistan a >> >> long time back, >> >> and with the distrust between the nations, would be >> surprised if >> >> they'd stop >> >> just because the current treaty is not signed. So what is this >> >> talk about India >> >> being Nuclear Free? >> >> >> >> 2. How does signing make India lose it's "hard earned >> >> sovereignty"? On one hand >> >> you talk of a nuclear race and on the other do not wish to >> sign>> on the dotted line >> >> to use nuclear bye products for peaceful purposes! >> >> >> >> 3. We're already chock a block on Coal and other power >> creators. With >> >> the water based >> >> ones, the displacement will be high (not counting the arguments >> >> with Pakistan & Bangladesh) >> >> and, of course, the recent posts on this list about the >> water >> >> in Kashmir. >> >> >> >> 4. What sustainable method of power generation do you have in >> >> mind - >> >> unless your contention >> >> is that India should live without power and that power is only >> >> for cities. Sounds highly illogical >> >> to me. >> >> >> >> In fact the whole message comes across as " they're the US, >> therefore>> everything they do is evil" which is something I will >> not accept >> >> as a >> >> reason. Both Russia and China have Nuclear capability for both >> power>> and warfare, yet because it is the US that has offered it, >> the treaty >> >> has become a tool of "US Imperialism". >> >> >> >> Doesn't wash. >> >> >> >> Rgds, Partha >> >> .................... >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 5:28 PM, Asit asitreds >> >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Friends >> >>> >> >>> Please see the following letter to the >> prime >> >> minister> to scrap the Indo-US nuclear deal, if you agree with >> the >> >> political content >> >>> please endorse the letter.And if possible please forward it to >> >> others.> >> >>> >> >>> With Regards >> >>> >> >>> Asit >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> AN OPEN LETTER TO THE PRIME MINSTER OF INDIA TO SCRAP THE INDO >> >> US NUCLEAR >> >>> DEAL >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> To >> >>> >> >>> Shri Manmohan Singh >> >>> >> >>> Prime Minister >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Dear Prime Minister, >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> We the undersigned demand scrapping of the Indo-US Nuclear >> Deal with >> >>> immediate effect. The content of the Deal which is currently being >> >>> negotiated between India and the US was the first laid out in >> >> the joint >> >>> statement issued by the Prime Minister and the US President on >> >> July 18, 2005 >> >>> from Washington DC and further reiterated on March 2, 2006 in >> >> another joint >> >>> statement by them issued from New Delhi. The signing of the >> >> Henry Hyde Act >> >>> on December 18, 2006 is logical interference of the content of >> >> the Act >> >>> legally making India a junior ally of the US Imperialism >> >> confiscating> and trunacating >> >>> our hard earned sovereignty. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> We therefore demand that the Indo-US Nuclear Deal be scrapped >> >> given up with >> >>> immediate effect and the ongoing talks between IAEA should be >> >> called off >> >>> immediately. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> The Indo-US Nuclear Deal is patently anti-people, will make >> >> India a >> >>> strategic ally of American Imperialism in South Asia to impose >> >> its hegemony >> >>> over Asia. The Deal also negates the concrete achievements >> >> gained by the >> >>> International and national peace movements for disarmament and >> >> Nuclear-free >> >>> World. After the example of the ruthless genocide, devastation and >> >>> occupation of Iraq before us, we feel that the Indo-US Nuclear >> >> Deal will >> >>> become an instrument for ruthlessly imposing the neo-liberal >> >> economic agenda >> >>> and pliant regimes over the impoverished people of the Third >> >> World and >> >>> further tightening the hold through the Indo-US Nuclear Deal, >> US >> >> Imperialism> will have a firm grip over the governments of >> the >> >> independent> nation-states of India and Asia. This makes a >> mockery >> >> of the cherished >> >>> values of equal and democratic world order and the aspirations >> >> of the >> >>> national liberation struggles including the whole spirit of >> >> decolonization.> >> >>> >> >>> The Indo-US Nuclear Deal is an outrageous instrument of >> >> recolonization of >> >>> India and Third World. The Deal, as and when comes through >> will, >> >> grievously> undermine the current global; regime of nuclear >> non- >> >> proliferation, as it is >> >>> meant to make an unique exception in case of India, in gross >> >> violation of >> >>> underlying principles of the International peace, workers, >> >> environment and >> >>> women's movements. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> The fact that Pakistan has been brusquely refused a similar >> deal >> >> by the US >> >>> in spite of persistent clamouring, and Iran is being >> >> demonstratively coerced >> >>> to desist from developing its own nuclear power production >> >> allowed and >> >>> encouraged under article IV of the NPT which further brings >> out >> >> graphically> the abominable discriminatory nature of the Deal. >> The >> >> deal is likely to >> >>> trigger a stepped up vertical and horizontal proliferations >> all >> >> over Asia. >> >>> This goes against our commitment of Nuclear-free Asia and >> World. >> >> by enabling >> >>> India to import fuel natural or enriched Uranium, from abroad >> >> the 'Deal' >> >>> would make it possible for India to use the indigenously >> >> produced Uranium >> >>> exclusively for bomb making. This possible escalation in its >> fissile>>> material production capacity, in all likelihood, it >> will push >> >> Pakistan> further to nuclearise even at great cost, and thereby >> >> aggravate tensions and >> >>> accelerate the arms race in the region with horrifying >> >> consequences. The >> >>> arms race will divert resources of the country away from >> >> development so >> >>> desperately required by the toiling masses to overcome their >> current>>> poverty. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> We totally reject the proposition that it will enhance India's >> >> energy> security and, we categorically assert that nuclear >> power >> >> is prohibitively >> >>> costly., therefore the Deal will distort India's energy >> options >> >> by diverting >> >>> resource guzzling, and the intrinsically hazardous and potentially >> >>> catastrophic, nuclear power at the cost of eco-friendly and >> many >> >> times> financially cheaper renewable sources of energy. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> With the human development index of India and the Third World >> >> miserably low, >> >>> we demand that instead of spending irrationally on nuclear power, >> >>> expenditures on in health, education, food security, rural and >> urban>>> employment be enhanced. >> >>> >> >>> We want to remind you that India as the leader of the Non- >> >> Aligned Movement >> >>> and as vocal participant in various international forums >> >> including the UN, >> >>> has always committed itself for a Nuclear-free World and >> >> abolition of the >> >>> existing nuclear weapons. In the spirit of the above we want >> the >> >> Government> of India to ban the entry of nuclear powered sub >> >> marines of the US and other >> >>> major NATO countries. After six decades after of the Hiroshima >> >> and Nagasaki >> >>> nuclear tragedies, we demand that immediate steps to be taken >> >> for a >> >>> Nuclear-free Asia and the world. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> The above Indo-US Nuclear Deal will further reinforce the >> >> unequal strategic >> >>> relationship between the US and thereby would add momentum to >> >> the US >> >>> imperialistic project for unfettered global dominance .We >> reject any >> >>> ambitions of the Indian ruling classes to act as the a Big >> >> Brother in South >> >>> Asia or to emerge as a global power basking in the reflected >> >> glory of global >> >>> headman and goon. This will not only undermine India's >> position >> >> as a >> >>> founding and leading member of the Non- Aligned Movement but >> >> will seriously >> >>> undermine prestige of NAM as a whole; >> >>> >> >>> of meekly surrendering to the US Imperialism defying the >> democratic>>> aspirations of the toiling masses of the Third World >> for a >> >> Nuclear-free, >> >>> just and livable world. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Vijay Pratap(Convener Lokayan) >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Babu Lal Sharma (Convenor, Global Gandhi Forum) >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Rakesh Bhatt (Coordinator, SADED/CSDS) >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Kiran Shaheen(Media and Social Activist) >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Chandrika(Editor-Dakhal Duniya web magazine) >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Prakash Kumar Ray (Film maker and Research Scholar/Film >> >> Studies/School of >> >>> art & Aesthetic JNU) >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Jeet Bhattacharya (Research Scholar, Film Studies, School of >> art >> >> & Aesthetic >> >>> JNU) >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Rishika Mehershi (Research Scholar, Performing Arts, School of >> >> art & >> >>> Aesthetic JNU) >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Asit (Researcher and Social Activist) >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Kumar Sameer(Social Activist) >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Peeyush Pant ( Editor-Lok Samvad) >> >>> _________________________________________ >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> >> with subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> list>>> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Partha Dasgupta >> >> +919811047132 >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> >> list >> >> List archive: >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> list >> > List archive: >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Jul 3 22:16:57 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 22:16:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Another Shrine, Another Time Message-ID: <998803DA-192F-4DA6-B85D-EC0A52481C4A@sarai.net> Dear All, Since we have all been discussing mountain shrines, injured Hindu honour, temple boards and shady deals. I thought that a little clipping filed away in my archives may be both entertaining and instructive. I had mentioned the affairs of the Sabarimala shrine in Kerala earlier. Here is a news item that appeared in the Hindustan Times in January 1999, about another mountain shrine. This time, its Badrinath. No wonder Hindutva is such a good business proposition. No further comments. Enjoy Shuddha _______________________________ Badrinath shrine cases get political http://uttarakhand.prayaga.org/news-1999-1.html#0ae Joshimath, January 10 (HT Correspondent) THE AFFAIRS of the 10,300 ft-high Badrinath shrine, the highest for religious merit, have become bogged down in court cases, as a result of BJP attempts to use its rich revenue of crores of rupees in pilgrim offerings for the benefit of its organisations and also that of the RSS. The Allahabad High Court last month dismissed the new Badrinath- Kedarnath Temple Committee, nominated by the BJP-led Government of UP by its notification of September 2, 1998, on a writ petition filed by members of the previous committee, whose term was to run until August 26, 1999. The High Court in its order of December 1, said the previous committee was given "no opportunity of hearing" before its term was cut short. The new committee, set up by the BJP-led state Government, went to the Supreme Court, against the Allahabad High Court ruling but the highest Court on December 18, rejected its petition, according to Mr Kushla Nand Sati, a member of the previous committee and a petitioner in the High Court, who is a resident of Joshimath. The new committee, loaded with low-level RSS and BJP workers, in a month of its appointment, began doling out funds from the pilgrim-offerings to deities of Badrinath-Kedarnath temples, to functions and institutions of their own organisations, according to Mr Sati. The new committee allotted Rs 21,000 from these temple-offerings to a RSS workers' camp in Meerut in October and Rs 5,000 to each Saraswati Shishu Mandir (children school in the region, manned mainly by the RSS cadre), Mr Sati said in a statement issued here. The new committee promoted a number of its employees including one to the post of its Chief Executive, in violation of rules of their appointment. They bought a new car for Rs 5 lakhs which Mr Sati said, "Was placed at the disposal of the wife of the Chairman of the new committee, Mr Vinod Nautiyal of Pauri, to take her to Dehradun for the delivery of their child and remain there for her use." Mr Nautiyal is a Pauri RSS worker. The old committee, the term of which was abruptly cut short last year was headed by Mr Romesh Bhandari, the former UP Governor. Mr Sati, who was in that committee which is supposed to take charge again, unless the UP Government issues a fresh order after giving a hearing to its members on why their three-year term needed to be cut short, said here today that the committee office located in Joshimath had become a den of corruption, with some of its employees including the Superintendent, remaining drunk all the time. The irreplaceable and invaluable Kedarnath temple pinnacle, of gold and reported to be 5,000 years old, was stolen in 1996. Till then, no serious efforts have been made by the committee to recover it or trace the culprits. The rumour in this area is that the theft was committed with the knowledge of some committee employees. In 1994, the committee bought five buses for Rs 36 lakhs and in three years lost Rs 11 lakhs on running them. The committee officials' telephone and travelling bills run into thousands of rupees and are allowed without serious scrutiny, ignoring the fact that the money comes out of the offerings of poor pilgrims, according to Mr Sati. He called for the appointment of a High Court judge to inquire into the mismanagement of the Badrinath Temple Committee funds and said that the management of these highest temples in the north should be patterned of that of other rich shrines of India. These were contributing to the education and welfare of not only the people living around them but also of others all over the country. "Badrinath shrine and the town that has grown around it, must be the most mismanaged one in the country," Mr Sati said. Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 22:58:26 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 22:58:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Kashmiri Pandits should be the ones running Amarnath Board' In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807030820i455ee117l53180ccd5cb5bb48@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030820i455ee117l53180ccd5cb5bb48@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690807031028g2fa0538csd1fa9bb0f4619a80@mail.gmail.com> LOL - ROFL Its just too funny. On 7/3/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Dear all, > > This is my third day in Srinagar and following the Delhi media on the > internet, it seems to me that not much has come out about the stand > taken by Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs who reside in the Valley. They > were supporting the demand to revoke the land transfer order! A > demonstration by Sikh leaders here was stopped by the police, but > demonstrations by Pandits in Jammu and Delhi, who always complain of > being ignored by the media, have been duly highlighted. This imbalance > is also reflected on the Reader-List. > > If anyone's voice is being marginalised in the media discourse, it is > that of communal harmony from the Valley, that of Sikhs and Pandits... > here is one report I found in that direction. Will post more. > > best > shivam > > o o o > > Keep politicians out of shrine board: PDP leader > > http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=136527 > > Senior PDP leader, Dr Roop Lal Sharma has advised that Shri Amarnath > Shrine Board affairs be handled by top journalists, lawyers, social > activists from Kashmiri Pandit community. He stressed that politicians > must be kept away from the Board.. > > SENIOR PEOPLE'S Democratic Party (PDP) leader Dr Roop Lal Sharma has > expressed serious concern over the developments in Jammu and Kashmir > pertaining to the controversy on land transfer to Shri Amarnath Shrine > Board (SASB) and has demanded handing over of the Board to Kashmiri > Pandits for management. > > In a statement issued in Jammu, Dr Sharma has said that the > controversy has given a bad name to the state adding, it does not > augur well for the secular character of the state and the government > should act fast to resolve the issue before it snowballs into a major > communal flare-up. > > Dr Sharma has said that Amarnath shrine belongs to state, particularly > Kashmiri Pandits, who are the original inhabitants of the state and > the local population of the area, who had been managing the affairs of > the shrine for the past many decades. > > He said that only Kashmiri Pandits have the right to manage the > affairs of the shrine besides, the local population of Maliks of > Batkote so that the 'yatra' (pilgrimage) is not communalised by some > vested interests in the administration. > > Dr Sharma has also warned the communal elements within the Hindu and > the Muslim societies to refrain from giving the 'yatra' a communal > colour and has condemned the attack on tourists in Kashmir besides, > killing of a Kashmiri youth in the police firing in Kashmir. > > Elaborating further, Dr Sharma said that the affairs of the shrine > should be entrusted to select Kashmiri Pandits comprising known > journalists, lawyers and known social activists adding, the political > class should be kept at an arms length from the board. > > Dr Sharma also said that even Kashmiri Pandit leaders, who are > affiliated to various groups should be consulted but not given the > reins because that will further divide the community, thus harming the > interests > > Hailing the futuristic vision of the PDP patron, Mufti Mohd Sayeed for > suggesting the handing over of the shrine to Kashmiri Pandits, Dr > Sharma said that the government must act fast on his suggestion > considering the fact that Sayeed has always proven right in his > assessment of the situations. > > Dr Sharma has also called for an end to violence and asked Muslim > brethren not to fall prey to some over zealous communalists who were > vitiating the secular character of Kashmiris, thereby damaging the > reputation the world over. > > He said such incidents would take the situation back to 1990s, thus > causing immense damage to the economy of the Kashmiris. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 23:29:34 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 23:29:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Kashmiri Pandits should be the ones running Amarnath Board' In-Reply-To: <6353c690807031028g2fa0538csd1fa9bb0f4619a80@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030820i455ee117l53180ccd5cb5bb48@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807031028g2fa0538csd1fa9bb0f4619a80@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807031059x5436abd6le857c59215bc1491@mail.gmail.com> Shivam , grow up ..... whom are you trying to befool . If you do not know a thing about Kashmir , please stop acting an expert. Are you even aware that it was PDP who did not allow passage of protection of temples in Kashmir bill ..... in the assembly.. Shivam , you re suffering from a Stokholm syndrome. Grow up...... your talk of communal harmony in Kashmir can be best described as "idiotic" Stop playing with our sentiments. Pawan On 7/3/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > LOL - ROFL > > Its just too funny. > > On 7/3/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > > > Dear all, > > > > This is my third day in Srinagar and following the Delhi media on the > > internet, it seems to me that not much has come out about the stand > > taken by Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs who reside in the Valley. They > > were supporting the demand to revoke the land transfer order! A > > demonstration by Sikh leaders here was stopped by the police, but > > demonstrations by Pandits in Jammu and Delhi, who always complain of > > being ignored by the media, have been duly highlighted. This imbalance > > is also reflected on the Reader-List. > > > > If anyone's voice is being marginalised in the media discourse, it is > > that of communal harmony from the Valley, that of Sikhs and Pandits... > > here is one report I found in that direction. Will post more. > > > > best > > shivam > > > > o o o > > > > Keep politicians out of shrine board: PDP leader > > > > http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=136527 > > > > Senior PDP leader, Dr Roop Lal Sharma has advised that Shri Amarnath > > Shrine Board affairs be handled by top journalists, lawyers, social > > activists from Kashmiri Pandit community. He stressed that politicians > > must be kept away from the Board.. > > > > SENIOR PEOPLE'S Democratic Party (PDP) leader Dr Roop Lal Sharma has > > expressed serious concern over the developments in Jammu and Kashmir > > pertaining to the controversy on land transfer to Shri Amarnath Shrine > > Board (SASB) and has demanded handing over of the Board to Kashmiri > > Pandits for management. > > > > In a statement issued in Jammu, Dr Sharma has said that the > > controversy has given a bad name to the state adding, it does not > > augur well for the secular character of the state and the government > > should act fast to resolve the issue before it snowballs into a major > > communal flare-up. > > > > Dr Sharma has said that Amarnath shrine belongs to state, particularly > > Kashmiri Pandits, who are the original inhabitants of the state and > > the local population of the area, who had been managing the affairs of > > the shrine for the past many decades. > > > > He said that only Kashmiri Pandits have the right to manage the > > affairs of the shrine besides, the local population of Maliks of > > Batkote so that the 'yatra' (pilgrimage) is not communalised by some > > vested interests in the administration. > > > > Dr Sharma has also warned the communal elements within the Hindu and > > the Muslim societies to refrain from giving the 'yatra' a communal > > colour and has condemned the attack on tourists in Kashmir besides, > > killing of a Kashmiri youth in the police firing in Kashmir. > > > > Elaborating further, Dr Sharma said that the affairs of the shrine > > should be entrusted to select Kashmiri Pandits comprising known > > journalists, lawyers and known social activists adding, the political > > class should be kept at an arms length from the board. > > > > Dr Sharma also said that even Kashmiri Pandit leaders, who are > > affiliated to various groups should be consulted but not given the > > reins because that will further divide the community, thus harming the > > interests > > > > Hailing the futuristic vision of the PDP patron, Mufti Mohd Sayeed for > > suggesting the handing over of the shrine to Kashmiri Pandits, Dr > > Sharma said that the government must act fast on his suggestion > > considering the fact that Sayeed has always proven right in his > > assessment of the situations. > > > > Dr Sharma has also called for an end to violence and asked Muslim > > brethren not to fall prey to some over zealous communalists who were > > vitiating the secular character of Kashmiris, thereby damaging the > > reputation the world over. > > > > He said such incidents would take the situation back to 1990s, thus > > causing immense damage to the economy of the Kashmiris. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 23:29:39 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 23:29:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] PDP works hand in glove with terrorists: Ex-governor Message-ID: <6353c690807031059u69e4452amf447629807e10e42@mail.gmail.com> *PDP works hand in glove with terrorists: Ex-governor* July 03, 2008 16:54 IST Lt Gen (retd) S K Sinha, till recently Governor of Jammu and Kashmir [Images], on Thursday launched a frontal attack on the state's main political parties, especially PDP and its patron Mufti Mohammed Sayeed, accusing him of being "hand in glove" with separatists and fundamentalists. At the centre of controversy over the land for Amarnath yatra which paralysed the valley in recent days, Sinha denounced PDP as "anti-national". Sinha, who laid down office eight days ago, minced no words in admitting that his relation with Sayeed, who was the state's Chief Minister between 2002 to 2005, had been "very bad from the very beginning". Disclosing that he was writing a book throwing light on his eventful tenure, Sinha said that Sayeed played the "most sinister role in reviving communalism in the valley" using the ploy of transfer of 100 acres of land in the valley which was to be used to provide facility for Amarnath pilgrims. Two of the PDP ministers in the cabinet -- Qazi Afzal (forest) and Muzzafar Hussain Beigh (law) -- were involved in the decision to direct this forest land at Baltal but Sayeed had used the issue to "promote his agenda", he said. "He (Sayeed) wanted to take electoral advantage of the developing situation but I think it has rebounded on him. The people have found out the duplicity of his party," he said. 82-year-old Sinha, who earlier had an equally controversial term as Governor in Assam before coming to Jammu and Kashmir, also did not spare the Centre and charged the Congress high command with undermining its own party Chief Minister Ghulam [Images] Nabi Azad. "The PDP has performed a very anti-national role in Kashmir and the pity is that PDP, for all these years, has been enjoying patronage of Delhi to the extent that Congress High Command has even undermined the position of its own party's Chief Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad," the former Governor said. Sinha said that he had been informing the Centre about the activities of Sayeed from time to time but the "Centre goes ahead by keeping it with the government for long." He denied that he had put any pressure on the state government for the transfer of land and said that the proposal was lying with it for last three years. This was a propoganda that had been circulated by the anti-national and secessionists and as well as PDP. "On the one hand sanctioning the diversion of forest land at Baltal through its two minister" and on the other they flare up the communal tensions, he said. "They (PDP) were trying to hunt with the hound and run with the hare. Their duplicity stands exposed and their effigies have been burnt in the streets of Srinagar [Images] by Kashmir mobs," he said. Sinha regretted the revocation of the order and termed it a "policy of appeasement and total surrender" followed by the state government and done with "total lack of grace". "What was worse, to appease the fundamentalists...they (state) have virtually wound up the Amarnath Shrine Board," he said, adding this move has had very serious reactions in Jammu and elsewhere in the country. http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jul/03land.htm From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 23:38:00 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 23:38:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Hospitality to Pligrims Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807031108m53ff03e6g210c35e57bdcd12@mail.gmail.com> Mr Chaudhary , a businessman from south Delhi returned from Amarnath yatra couple of days back .His wife , Sarita, a baiter of Hindutva , was visiting Amarnath for the first time. Having been stranded , the family was offered food by a local Kashmiri Muslim family . The six members from the chaudhary family were overwhelmed with the hospitality of the family.....till they finished their meals. The hosts suggested the family to pay whatever they may . Mr Chaudhary offered Rs 1500 for the dinner. And just then they were almost taken hostage where the hosts demanded 10000 Rs from them . The deal ended with Chaudhary paying Rs 4500 , Chaudharys wife learnt a lesson for life. And the locals in Kashmir showed the hospitality ..... which doesnt interest the media. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 23:31:50 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 23:31:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amarnath row reignites Azadi sentiments In-Reply-To: References: <9c06aab30807030803x4bec38cer3b90a7001304f956@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807031101uc92396eoe35ae3e201ae031c@mail.gmail.com> And the Jammu news doesnt appeal to the born slaves. On 7/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Dear Shivam, > > Thank you for your reports from the valley. They help us get a > clearer image of the situation and what people are thinking and saying. > > best > > Shuddha > On 03-Jul-08, at 8:33 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > > [As published this morning] > > > > > > Amarnath row reignites azadi sentiment > > > > Shivam Vij / Srinagar > > Sakaal Times / 3 July > > http://epaper.sakaaltimes.com > > > > > > The writing on the wall is clear: The Kashmiri demand for independence > > from India is not over yet. Separatist leaders and commoners alike > > have hailed the withdrawal of the land transfer order as the victory > > of the Kashmiri people and called to revitalise the azadi movement. > > > > This is clearly a turning point in the 20-year-old militant struggle. > > There is also talk of boycotting the coming assembly polls and > > reunification of the two factions of the Hurriyat Conference. The mood > > was reflected in every local daily's frontpage headlines. PEOPLE WIN, > > said Greater Kashmir. Kashmir Savours Victory, said the Kashmir > > Observer. Kashmir win, said Amroze Kashmir. VICTORY! said Etalaat. > > People win, Order revoked, said Kashmir Monitor. > > > > The emphasis that it was a people's agitation rather than one of > > leaders is shared by everyone. The sentiment is shared by every taxi > > driver, shopkeeper, houseboat-owner, journalist — too widespread > > to be > > brushed away as anybody's political gimmick. The agitation was lead by > > the ACALT committee which had, apart from Hurriyat leaders, apolitical > > religious leaders, representatives from trade and transporters' > > organisation's, the Kashmir Chambers of Commerce and the Bar Council. > > > > Vehement support was given by the Valley's Sikhs and most Kashmiri > > Pandit organisations as well. The biggest winner is Hurriyat leader > > Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who was the first to begin mobilising the > > public with a signature campaign. In a press conference on Wednesday, > > he emphasised: "This punctures New Delhi's theory that our movement is > > standing on Pakistani support," he said, adding, "did you see a single > > agitator using violence?" "The movement lives on in the hearts and > > minds of the people," he told Sakaal Times. > > > > The relatively smooth rule of the PDP-Congress coalition and the > > decline in militancy had led observers to believe that people's > > participation in polls could increase. "Nobody will vote now," said > > Etalaat editor Zahiruddin. In fact NC's Omar Abdullah is believed to > > have said as much to the NSA in his meeting with him in Delhi. > > > > "Mainstream politicians in the Valley who believed the movement was on > > its deathbed have got a rude jolt," he said. "This is very unpleasant > > for the Indian government and intelligence agencies who were already > > talking of a postconflict scenario," says human rights activist Parvez > > Imroz. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From tapasrayx at gmail.com Fri Jul 4 02:16:36 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:46:36 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue In-Reply-To: References: <98f331e00806301826g1af66e90pacaacf4724a45a50@mail.gmail.com> <"48 6A2C87.8080008"@gmail.com> <486B6D4B.2000802@gmail.com> Message-ID: <486D3AAC.1010807@gmail.com> Radhika, Here's how I see things. I agree if you mean that the parties you call "pseudo-secular" use communal sentiments for narrow political gain. However, they do this not just with religion but also with other identity factors like language, ethnicity, and caste, according to taste. This sets them apart from the BJP to some extent. But only to some extent, because I think the BJP too would not, and probably does not, give up a chance to use those other identities. It is probably just a question of degree. However, this does not put the BJP, and the Parivar in general, in the same category as those parties, because unlike those, these are exclusionary, supremacist, feed on anti-minority paranoia, have institutionalised violence (think of the RSS shakhas), and used it on a scale probably not reached by the "pseudo-seculars". The BJP (as a representative of the Parivar) may or may not have been better or worse than the "pseudo-seculars" in specific instances of governance, but even a "better performance", however defined, can never be its claim to power as long as the above are true. Last but not the least, before thinking about Lalbahadur Shastri's death, etc., we should recall the Gandhi assassination, which we tend to forget but never should. Unless the BJP and the Parivar openly admit that their role has been extremely harmful for the country, and give up their Hindutva ideology in both theory and practice, they will continue to be an anomaly in our democratic system. Tapas radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > Very correct, those who say they are secular are actually seen very communal in day to day governance, but it is funny that if BJP unites all in the nation it is called communal just because united hindu votes would be more of potent force. ? > > As to administration of religious places it should be noted that rich funds of dioceses of any denomination of christian faith has absolutely no control as how it is used. recent news of about the priest of an evangelist was bashed up by his own commune in kerala, accounts were asked for 1499 crores misused by him. This news appeared in all the print but not in visual media. ! > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tapas Ray >> Radhika, >> >> You did not get my point. I was saying exactly the opposite of >> what you >> thought I was saying. My point was that Prakash Ray should be the >> last >> person to say that the government of J&K ought to get out of the >> wakf >> board/temple trust business. >> >> But I am not surprised, because he has done similar things in the >> past - >> spoken fiery words against Modi's "right-wing economic policies" >> if I >> remember correctly, while the party he is always defending, namely >> CPI(M), has been condemned on that very issue in the state it >> rules, >> i.e., West Bengal. >> >> On the present issue, he is suggesting that the J&K government get >> out >> of the wakfs and temple trusts, even though in West Bengal a >> minister >> heads the wakf board, and that board was the focus of an >> investigation >> into a massive scandal a few years ago, involving CPI(M) people. >> You >> will see this if you read the news items I copied below my post. >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> Tapas From rashneek at gmail.com Fri Jul 4 09:55:32 2008 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 09:55:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Thank you, Governor' - editorial in Etalaat In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807030827t29e19cbbk22d3f6205842b79@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030827t29e19cbbk22d3f6205842b79@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13df7c120807032125q7be20f1cua4e45d880b19b439@mail.gmail.com> Shivam Bhai, Akhbar to kum se kum dang ke doonda karo...Eatllat is owned by A Hurriyat member...so is Rising Kashmir by an influential separtist.Do you expect Narendra Modi to sing paeans to Secularism... Jago bhai Rashneek On 7/3/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Thank you Governor > 24 June, 2008 09:00:00 > http://www.etalaat.net/english/viewpoint/editorial/1039.html > > > The Action Committee against Land Transfer has a strong argument when > it says that the local Pandits must be entrusted with the job of > facilitating and conducting the Yatra. They have done it in the past > and, therefore, have the experience to conduct a smooth Yatra. There > is absolutely no need of politicizing a pilgrimage which till > yesterday was a symbol of communal harmony. Entrusting the job to > local Pandits shall restore sanctity of the pilgrimage. The > involvement of the Rajbhawan has created problems for New Delhi. > > There is a silver lining for Kashmiris in the transfer of forest land > to the SASB. The SASB tried its best to dub Kashmiri Muslims as > communalists and religious fanatics but failed. The world knows that > Kashmiri Muslims have always upheld the high traditions of universal > brotherhood. In 1947 when the whole of sub-continent was hot Kashmiris > remained cool and protected their non-Muslim brethren. This was > acknowledged by the father of Indian nation, MKC Gandhi. As far as > Amarnath Yatra is concerned, the local Muslims have always taken an > active part in the pilgrimage. > > There have been occasions when Kashmiri Muslims have protected the > pilgrims at the cost of their own lives. The Muslims used to carry > the pilgrims on their shoulders. The Muslims used to feed the Yatries. > The Muslims helped them on the difficult terrain. But those were the > good old days. Now the situation has changed. The Raj Bhawan has > deliberately excluded the local Muslims. It has not only deprived them > of their livelihood but caused a serious injury to their sentiments as > well. The area from Baltal to Cave is ecologically very fragile. > Similarly the > route via Pahalgam is equally fragile. The heavy rush of pilgrims is > going to have an adverse effect on the environment. It also hinders > with the process of formation of the lingum. > > The Shrine Board should have followed the Uttarakand Chief Minister > who despite severe opposition from Hindu fundamentalists restricted > the number of Yatries to a glacier in the state. This indicates that > the Shrine Board has a hidden agenda. It is not interested in the > Yatra but something else. If the Governor intends to Indianise > Kashmiris, he is destined to fail in his misadventure. For the past > sixty years the army could not do it. The puppet regimes installed by > New Delhi from > time to time resorted to administrative and legislative terrorism but > nothing has changed. > > The alienation is as deep as it was in 1947. The misadventures of the > shrine Board, rather Rajbhawan are not going to serve any purpose. The > reaction that the transfer of land has evoked does not fit anywhere in > the scheme of New Delhi. The Governor must have been taken to task for > putting Kashmir on fire at a `crucial' juncture. The transfer of Land > and the arrogance of the Shrine Board chairman forced the warring > factions of the Hurriyat Conference to forge > unity much to the pleasure of the people of Kashmir. It also revived > the movement which people by and large believed had almost died down. > The movement has once again reached a stage where people willingly > come forward to strengthen it. The land transferred to the SASB shall > remain in Kashmir. It shall not be taken to New Delhi or elsewhere. > But its transfer has done the much needed miracle. Thank you SASB. > Thank you Governor. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From rashneek at gmail.com Fri Jul 4 09:57:34 2008 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 09:57:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Another Shrine, Another Time In-Reply-To: <998803DA-192F-4DA6-B85D-EC0A52481C4A@sarai.net> References: <998803DA-192F-4DA6-B85D-EC0A52481C4A@sarai.net> Message-ID: <13df7c120807032127n27b30f8amb218e921340b7370@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shudda, Not just Hindutva which you hate Shuddha.All religious institutions whether Mecca or Vatican are good business propositions. Orgainzed religion is like institutionalised crime.... Regards Rashneek On 7/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > Dear All, > > Since we have all been discussing mountain shrines, injured Hindu > honour, temple boards and shady deals. I thought that a little > clipping filed away in my archives may be both entertaining and > instructive. > I had mentioned the affairs of the Sabarimala shrine in Kerala > earlier. Here is a news item that appeared in the Hindustan Times in > January 1999, about another mountain shrine. This time, its Badrinath. > > No wonder Hindutva is such a good business proposition. > > No further comments. Enjoy > > Shuddha > > _______________________________ > Badrinath shrine cases get political > http://uttarakhand.prayaga.org/news-1999-1.html#0ae > > > Joshimath, January 10 (HT Correspondent) > > THE AFFAIRS of the 10,300 ft-high Badrinath shrine, the highest for > religious merit, have become bogged down in court cases, as a result > of BJP attempts to use its rich revenue of crores of rupees in > pilgrim offerings for the benefit of its organisations and also that > of the RSS. > > The Allahabad High Court last month dismissed the new Badrinath- > Kedarnath Temple Committee, nominated by the BJP-led Government of UP > by its notification of September 2, 1998, on a writ petition filed by > members of the previous committee, whose term was to run until August > 26, 1999. The High Court in its order of December 1, said the > previous committee was given "no opportunity of hearing" before its > term was cut short. > > The new committee, set up by the BJP-led state Government, went to > the Supreme Court, against the Allahabad High Court ruling but the > highest Court on December 18, rejected its petition, according to Mr > Kushla Nand Sati, a member of the previous committee and a petitioner > in the High Court, who is a resident of Joshimath. The new committee, > loaded with low-level RSS and BJP workers, in a month of its > appointment, began doling out funds from the pilgrim-offerings to > deities of Badrinath-Kedarnath temples, to functions and institutions > of their own organisations, according to Mr Sati. The new committee > allotted Rs 21,000 from these temple-offerings to a RSS workers' camp > in Meerut in October and Rs 5,000 to each Saraswati Shishu Mandir > (children school in the region, manned mainly by the RSS cadre), Mr > Sati said in a statement issued here. > > The new committee promoted a number of its employees including one to > the post of its Chief Executive, in violation of rules of their > appointment. They bought a new car for Rs 5 lakhs which Mr Sati said, > "Was placed at the disposal of the wife of the Chairman of the new > committee, Mr Vinod Nautiyal of Pauri, to take her to Dehradun for > the delivery of their child and remain there for her use." Mr > Nautiyal is a Pauri RSS worker. > > The old committee, the term of which was abruptly cut short last year > was headed by Mr Romesh Bhandari, the former UP Governor. Mr Sati, > who was in that committee which is supposed to take charge again, > unless the UP Government issues a fresh order after giving a hearing > to its members on why their three-year term needed to be cut short, > said here today that the committee office located in Joshimath had > become a den of corruption, with some of its employees including the > Superintendent, remaining drunk all the time. > > The irreplaceable and invaluable Kedarnath temple pinnacle, of gold > and reported to be 5,000 years old, was stolen in 1996. Till then, no > serious efforts have been made by the committee to recover it or > trace the culprits. The rumour in this area is that the theft was > committed with the knowledge of some committee employees. > > In 1994, the committee bought five buses for Rs 36 lakhs and in three > years lost Rs 11 lakhs on running them. The committee officials' > telephone and travelling bills run into thousands of rupees and are > allowed without serious scrutiny, ignoring the fact that the money > comes out of the offerings of poor pilgrims, according to Mr Sati. He > called for the appointment of a High Court judge to inquire into the > mismanagement of the Badrinath Temple Committee funds and said that > the management of these highest temples in the north should be > patterned of that of other rich shrines of India. > > These were contributing to the education and welfare of not only the > people living around them but also of others all over the country. > > "Badrinath shrine and the town that has grown around it, must be the > most mismanaged one in the country," Mr Sati said. > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From rashneek at gmail.com Fri Jul 4 10:00:16 2008 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:00:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Kashmiri Pandits should be the ones running Amarnath Board' In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807030820i455ee117l53180ccd5cb5bb48@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030820i455ee117l53180ccd5cb5bb48@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13df7c120807032130q77c74626tc1cd5afbc6be896d@mail.gmail.com> Shivam, You posts are as old and stale as your understanding of kashmir issue. So relax in a house boat,eat goshtaba and come back.Dont try to add to the pile of already existing Kashmir Experts. Regards Rashneek On 7/3/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Dear all, > > This is my third day in Srinagar and following the Delhi media on the > internet, it seems to me that not much has come out about the stand > taken by Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs who reside in the Valley. They > were supporting the demand to revoke the land transfer order! A > demonstration by Sikh leaders here was stopped by the police, but > demonstrations by Pandits in Jammu and Delhi, who always complain of > being ignored by the media, have been duly highlighted. This imbalance > is also reflected on the Reader-List. > > If anyone's voice is being marginalised in the media discourse, it is > that of communal harmony from the Valley, that of Sikhs and Pandits... > here is one report I found in that direction. Will post more. > > best > shivam > > o o o > > Keep politicians out of shrine board: PDP leader > > http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=136527 > > Senior PDP leader, Dr Roop Lal Sharma has advised that Shri Amarnath > Shrine Board affairs be handled by top journalists, lawyers, social > activists from Kashmiri Pandit community. He stressed that politicians > must be kept away from the Board.. > > SENIOR PEOPLE'S Democratic Party (PDP) leader Dr Roop Lal Sharma has > expressed serious concern over the developments in Jammu and Kashmir > pertaining to the controversy on land transfer to Shri Amarnath Shrine > Board (SASB) and has demanded handing over of the Board to Kashmiri > Pandits for management. > > In a statement issued in Jammu, Dr Sharma has said that the > controversy has given a bad name to the state adding, it does not > augur well for the secular character of the state and the government > should act fast to resolve the issue before it snowballs into a major > communal flare-up. > > Dr Sharma has said that Amarnath shrine belongs to state, particularly > Kashmiri Pandits, who are the original inhabitants of the state and > the local population of the area, who had been managing the affairs of > the shrine for the past many decades. > > He said that only Kashmiri Pandits have the right to manage the > affairs of the shrine besides, the local population of Maliks of > Batkote so that the 'yatra' (pilgrimage) is not communalised by some > vested interests in the administration. > > Dr Sharma has also warned the communal elements within the Hindu and > the Muslim societies to refrain from giving the 'yatra' a communal > colour and has condemned the attack on tourists in Kashmir besides, > killing of a Kashmiri youth in the police firing in Kashmir. > > Elaborating further, Dr Sharma said that the affairs of the shrine > should be entrusted to select Kashmiri Pandits comprising known > journalists, lawyers and known social activists adding, the political > class should be kept at an arms length from the board. > > Dr Sharma also said that even Kashmiri Pandit leaders, who are > affiliated to various groups should be consulted but not given the > reins because that will further divide the community, thus harming the > interests > > Hailing the futuristic vision of the PDP patron, Mufti Mohd Sayeed for > suggesting the handing over of the shrine to Kashmiri Pandits, Dr > Sharma said that the government must act fast on his suggestion > considering the fact that Sayeed has always proven right in his > assessment of the situations. > > Dr Sharma has also called for an end to violence and asked Muslim > brethren not to fall prey to some over zealous communalists who were > vitiating the secular character of Kashmiris, thereby damaging the > reputation the world over. > > He said such incidents would take the situation back to 1990s, thus > causing immense damage to the economy of the Kashmiris. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Jul 4 11:04:31 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 11:04:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra In-Reply-To: <6353c690807022249r2ca787c6q967c8dd1418d5f86@mail.gmail.com> References: <48c2916d0806301000u1c969e3ft44e1c83094d49ab7@mail.gmail.com> <632009.16867.qm@web27803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <6353c690807022249r2ca787c6q967c8dd1418d5f86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990807032234j32f5b3a8h3345f009e11ffe7@mail.gmail.com> Hi Aditya, It's interesting that while looking at the mail from Murtaza, the individual efforts from Muslim people does not count. However, the individual activities of terrorists becomes the grounds to claim "The reality is Muslims are shit scared". It is not just Kashmiri Muslims who've been brainwashed. In this unending cycle of hate, the purpose has been forgotten behind the need for revenge and counter action. And your wordings seem to equate "laks of Hindu Pilgrims" to "The common citizens of this country". Rgds, Partha ........................ On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 11:19 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Murtaza may like to add this as well. Kashmiri Muslim Terrorists have an old > practice of disrupting the Yatra as well. In the past years we have seen > this openly, how Yatri's have got injured in attacks and even killed. This > time the media somehow is blocking the news outside Jammu in national > papers. Kashmiri Muslims who have been brainwashed and this is just a small > segment; have been disrupting the Yatra on and off. > > Yesterday alone, 15 Pilgrims were injured in these attacks. It only shows > the love they have for the Pilgrims...Isn't it ? > > The reality is Muslims are shit scared. They don't want laks of Hindu > Pilgrims to visit Amarnath every year. > > Its high time they wake up. The common citizens of this country won't > tollerate this fundamentalism and communal attitude. > > Aditya > > > On 7/2/08, Kashmir Affairs wrote: >> >> Aarthi, >> Kashmiri Muslims offering food and shelter to the yatris is old practice. I >> will give you one example in recent times. When in 1996 due to unseasonal >> blizzards and uncontrollable number of yatris [70,000 on one day by some >> accounts], the yatris were stranded for nearly a week. >> People in Islamabad [Anantnag] made free langers at Nai Basti, Sarnal, >> Kadipora, Khanabal, Anchidora, Mattan and Che and sheltered thousands of >> yatris in their homes, shops and even mosques. In Che, there was a small >> incident which i thought was funny, when the yatris thanking god for thier >> safety started shouting 'bolo amarnath ki jai' while housed in mosque. >> However, Yatris were not thrown out of the mosque, though some people >> questioned the practice while others laughed. >> As a child we used to stand on the either side of road in Kadipora greeting >> walking yatris with 'babu ji sitaram'..... Certainly those days yatra was >> peaceful and a very low key affair. But now as any religion is marketed and >> branded, Amarnath Yatra has fallen to it as well. >> >> Murtaza Shibli >> www.kashmiraffairs.org >> >> --- On Mon, 30/6/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: >> From: Aarti Sethi >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Yatra >> To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >> Cc: "sarai list" <> >> Date: Monday, 30 June, 2008, 6:00 PM >> >> Apropos this, today's express or TOI I forget which has a story on Kashmiri >> Muslim's setting up food stalls and rest houses for stranded pilgrims. >> Several pilgrims were housed in people's homes when they discovered they >> had >> nowhere to stay. On being asked they said this was nothing new and that the >> local Muslim community had been hosting poilgrims for the lat hundred years >> and they saw no reason to change this tradition despite the current fracas >> over land allotment. So I would suggest Pavan that you excercise a little >> restraint before you make intemperate remarks about intolerance. >> >> best >> A >> >> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 9:57 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> >> wrote: >> s://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> Not happy with your email address?. >> Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now >> at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From kj.impulse at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 23:16:40 2008 From: kj.impulse at gmail.com (Kavita Joshi) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 23:16:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [DFA NewsLetter] Film Screening in Delhi at the India Habitat Center In-Reply-To: <5a4334630806050317x7fe28cadj95ad503583b98182@mail.gmail.com> References: <5a4334630806040554w6837b9d5g9d1993c523e82640@mail.gmail.com> <38164.37066.qm@web65707.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <5a4334630806050317x7fe28cadj95ad503583b98182@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <821019d70807031046t4817849ev9efba2f07e6e4066@mail.gmail.com> Kindly send your replies ONLY to the filmmaker, SONALI GULATI (email id below) thanks! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Sonali Film "Self/Subject/Subjectivity/Sexuality" An evening of short films directed by Sonali Gulati Sunday July 6th 2008 6:45pm Gulmohar Auditorium India Habitat Centre Lodhi Road New Delhi ABOUT THE FILMMAKER: Sonali Gulati is originally from New Delhi and an Assistant Professor at Virginia Commonwealth University's Department of Photography & Film. She has an MFA in Film & Media Arts from Temple University and a BA in Critical Social Thought from Mount Holyoke College. Ms. Gulati has made several short films that have screened at over two hundred film festivals worldwide. She has won awards and grants from foundations such as the Third Wave Foundation and the World Studio Foundation. She is currently in India making a documentary on gay and lesbian families living in India. - ----------------------- http://www.sonalifilm.com - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Please DO NOT REPLY to the sender. To contact the MODERATOR: delhifilmarchive [at] gmail.com To UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to delhifilmarchive-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com More OPTIONS are on the web: http://groups.google.com/group/delhifilmarchive Our WEBSITE: www.delhifilmarchive.org -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Jul 4 12:39:05 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:09:05 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue In-Reply-To: <486D3AAC.1010807@gmail.com> References: <98f331e00806301826g1af66e90pacaacf4724a45a50@mail.gmail.com> <"4 8 6A2C87.8080008"@gmail.com> <486B6D4B.2000802@gmail.com> <486D3AAC.1010807@gmail.com> Message-ID: Tapas, thank you for your agreement on the fact that the so called "secular" parties are not exactly secular in their governance as they are also using the communes to appease selectively for vote gains. Thus hindu votes without the division are larger than the divided vote banks, and as regards, Rastriya swayam sevak Sangh, I no authority to speak about the socio cultural organisation, but being hindu, i am proud to be hindu, a tolerent hindu, whose patience is tried in every day life by PM and his cronies who use retired judges to make jhoota reports of one community only, not of all the citizens in the nation, irrespective of their faith, caste and region. True democratic rule must address the needs of every citizen of the nation, otherwise we see the gujjars agitating, jats fuming, farners committing suicides, and muslims , it is a myth to say that hindus hate the muslims, it is only when they assert with their numerical power show off the damage they can do after friday prayers, that hindus think of some control on this sudden burst of unlawful actions for danish cartoon, or alleged insults to their faith. Same comes true for the fanatics in hindu faith who also seem to show off the power of mob fury when rule of laws are compromised. RSS never indulges in bashing muslims but unfortunately because they do not respond to tv anchors and become celebrities , the true side of the story never gets in to societal intelligence. ? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tapas Ray Date: Friday, July 4, 2008 2:17 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue To: sarai list > Radhika, > > Here's how I see things. > > I agree if you mean that the parties you call "pseudo-secular" use > communal sentiments for narrow political gain. However, they do > this not > just with religion but also with other identity factors like > language, > ethnicity, and caste, according to taste. This sets them apart > from the > BJP to some extent. But only to some extent, because I think the > BJP too > would not, and probably does not, give up a chance to use those > other > identities. It is probably just a question of degree. > > However, this does not put the BJP, and the Parivar in general, in > the > same category as those parties, because unlike those, these are > exclusionary, supremacist, feed on anti-minority paranoia, have > institutionalised violence (think of the RSS shakhas), and used it > on a > scale probably not reached by the "pseudo-seculars". > > The BJP (as a representative of the Parivar) may or may not have > been > better or worse than the "pseudo-seculars" in specific instances > of > governance, but even a "better performance", however defined, can > never > be its claim to power as long as the above are true. > > Last but not the least, before thinking about Lalbahadur Shastri's > death, etc., we should recall the Gandhi assassination, which we > tend to > forget but never should. Unless the BJP and the Parivar openly > admit > that their role has been extremely harmful for the country, and > give up > their Hindutva ideology in both theory and practice, they will > continue > to be an anomaly in our democratic system. > > Tapas > > > > > radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > Very correct, those who say they are secular are actually seen > very communal in day to day governance, but it is funny that if > BJP unites all in the nation it is called communal just because > united hindu votes would be more of potent force. ? > > > > As to administration of religious places it should be noted > that rich funds of dioceses of any denomination of christian faith > has absolutely no control as how it is used. recent news of about > the priest of an evangelist was bashed up by his own commune in > kerala, accounts were asked for 1499 crores misused by him. This > news appeared in all the print but not in visual media. ! > > > > Regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Tapas Ray > > >> Radhika, > >> > >> You did not get my point. I was saying exactly the opposite of > >> what you > >> thought I was saying. My point was that Prakash Ray should be > the > >> last > >> person to say that the government of J&K ought to get out of > the > >> wakf > >> board/temple trust business. > >> > >> But I am not surprised, because he has done similar things in > the > >> past - > >> spoken fiery words against Modi's "right-wing economic > policies" > >> if I > >> remember correctly, while the party he is always defending, > namely > >> CPI(M), has been condemned on that very issue in the state it > >> rules, > >> i.e., West Bengal. > >> > >> On the present issue, he is suggesting that the J&K government > get > >> out > >> of the wakfs and temple trusts, even though in West Bengal a > >> minister > >> heads the wakf board, and that board was the focus of an > >> investigation > >> into a massive scandal a few years ago, involving CPI(M) > people. > >> You > >> will see this if you read the news items I copied below my post. > >> > >> Hope this helps. > >> > >> Tapas > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Jul 4 12:57:25 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:27:25 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807030822v65264b07p88ebd5cc5073e451@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030822v65264b07p88ebd5cc5073e451@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, Shivam, who is financing your stay in Srinagar, it looks like you are being held hostage with good food and your thoughts are that of a hostage talking good about his kidnappers.! By the way I hope you are guest of Gulam nabi or Mufti as both are known spin doctors who use the bakras like you.? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:53 pm Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat To: sarai list > Tolerant Kashmiris > 26 June, 2008 08:10:48 > http://www.etalaat.net/english/viewpoint/editorial/1111.html > > Vested interests are all out to communalize the on-going agitation > against transfer of forest land to the Amarnath Shrine Board. Time and > again it has been made clear that the on-going agitation is not > against the Yatra or the Yatries. The agitation is against > politicization of the Yatra. Kashmiris want the government to entrust > the job of conducting and facilitating Yatra to the local people who > have been conducting it effectively since 1860. > > To understand the on-going agitation against land transfer in its > right perspectives one has to look into the history of Kashmir.When > important decisions concerning the future of Kashmir were taken > Kashmiris were always ignored. In 1947 a decision was imposed on the > reluctant people and since then the trend continues. In early 60s the > government of India omitted Article 238 from Indian constitution and > thus rendered article 370 infructious. The Article 370 which > guarantees a special status to the state of Jammu Kashmir reads: "Not > withstanding any thing nothing in Article 238 shall apply to the state > of Jammu Kashmir." Article 370 is still there but article 238 which > contained the heart and soul of 370 is not there in the constitution. > Kashmiris to this day do not know about this fraud. > > Similarly the government of India abolished the permit system which > required the non-state subjects to obtain a permit for entering the > state. Again the people were not taken into confidence. In 1975 a > popular movement was strangled. Again the people did not protest. In > 1978 the draconian public safety act (PSA) was framed. People did not > protest. In 1984 TADA was extended to the state. People remained > silent. The Gulmarg issue shook them and the transfer of land did the > miracle. Even this time the government had taken the people for > granted. > > People are angry but they have not thrown caution to the winds. They > have upheld the high traditions of tolerance and have not harmed any > Yatri or a tourist. This is exactly what Islam teaches them. The > Yatries are welcome and so are the tourists. Kashmiris are known for > their hospitality and they will not disappoint the pilgrims and other > guests. > > History is witness to the fact that Kashmiris have always protected > their non-Muslim brethren. Hundreds of instances can be quoted to > prove the point. However, the following incident shall suffice. A > person who retired as the Chief Conservator of Forests lived in > Shahr-e-Khaas during his college days. One day while on his way to the > college he was intercepted by a crowd. Taken for a Bakra (A supporter > of Mirwaiz Yusuf Shah) he was given sound thrashing. Somehow he ran > away but only to be caught by another violent group. This time he was > taken for a Sher (Supporter of Sheikh Abdullah) and beaten to pulp. > Again he managed his escape. When caught for the third time, he > shouted: "I am a Pandit." Nobody touched him this time. He was given > safe passage. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Jul 4 14:38:28 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 14:08:28 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue In-Reply-To: <486D3AAC.1010807@gmail.com> References: <98f331e00806301826g1af66e90pacaacf4724a45a50@mail.gmail.com> <"4 8 6A2C87.8080008"@gmail.com> <486B6D4B.2000802@gmail.com> <486D3AAC.1010807@gmail.com> Message-ID: IN THE LIGHTER VEIN.......... Tapas, just as it was time for the midday lunch, it was amusing to see the persons who were so ingloriously called names such as dogs and beggars for the univited dinner for Sonia pleasure by Salman Khurshid and Ambika Soni, a few years ago, are today VIPs visiting the sonia court as courtesans Like Jayanthi, nondescript spokesperson of rootless wonder, speak of principled stand of the party.! Now that the barking dogs never bite is proved, laughing hyenas have descended on the royal court for scavenging the crumbs.? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tapas Ray Date: Friday, July 4, 2008 2:17 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue To: sarai list > Radhika, > > Here's how I see things. > > I agree if you mean that the parties you call "pseudo-secular" use > communal sentiments for narrow political gain. However, they do > this not > just with religion but also with other identity factors like > language, > ethnicity, and caste, according to taste. This sets them apart > from the > BJP to some extent. But only to some extent, because I think the > BJP too > would not, and probably does not, give up a chance to use those > other > identities. It is probably just a question of degree. > > However, this does not put the BJP, and the Parivar in general, in > the > same category as those parties, because unlike those, these are > exclusionary, supremacist, feed on anti-minority paranoia, have > institutionalised violence (think of the RSS shakhas), and used it > on a > scale probably not reached by the "pseudo-seculars". > > The BJP (as a representative of the Parivar) may or may not have > been > better or worse than the "pseudo-seculars" in specific instances > of > governance, but even a "better performance", however defined, can > never > be its claim to power as long as the above are true. > > Last but not the least, before thinking about Lalbahadur Shastri's > death, etc., we should recall the Gandhi assassination, which we > tend to > forget but never should. Unless the BJP and the Parivar openly > admit > that their role has been extremely harmful for the country, and > give up > their Hindutva ideology in both theory and practice, they will > continue > to be an anomaly in our democratic system. > > Tapas > > > > > radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > Very correct, those who say they are secular are actually seen > very communal in day to day governance, but it is funny that if > BJP unites all in the nation it is called communal just because > united hindu votes would be more of potent force. ? > > > > As to administration of religious places it should be noted > that rich funds of dioceses of any denomination of christian faith > has absolutely no control as how it is used. recent news of about > the priest of an evangelist was bashed up by his own commune in > kerala, accounts were asked for 1499 crores misused by him. This > news appeared in all the print but not in visual media. ! > > > > Regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Tapas Ray > > >> Radhika, > >> > >> You did not get my point. I was saying exactly the opposite of > >> what you > >> thought I was saying. My point was that Prakash Ray should be > the > >> last > >> person to say that the government of J&K ought to get out of > the > >> wakf > >> board/temple trust business. > >> > >> But I am not surprised, because he has done similar things in > the > >> past - > >> spoken fiery words against Modi's "right-wing economic > policies" > >> if I > >> remember correctly, while the party he is always defending, > namely > >> CPI(M), has been condemned on that very issue in the state it > >> rules, > >> i.e., West Bengal. > >> > >> On the present issue, he is suggesting that the J&K government > get > >> out > >> of the wakfs and temple trusts, even though in West Bengal a > >> minister > >> heads the wakf board, and that board was the focus of an > >> investigation > >> into a massive scandal a few years ago, involving CPI(M) > people. > >> You > >> will see this if you read the news items I copied below my post. > >> > >> Hope this helps. > >> > >> Tapas > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From zarinehabeeb at yahoo.com Fri Jul 4 14:46:32 2008 From: zarinehabeeb at yahoo.com (zarine habeeb) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 02:16:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Supporting Romani victims of forced sterilization Message-ID: <693815.15171.qm@web51408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear all, Please consider sending a post card/letter in support of the Romani victims of forced sterilization in Central and Eastern Europe. Please see below for details. thank you, Zarine ********************************************************************** Romani Women Campaign around Forced Sterilisation Practices at the 2008 Women’s Worlds Congress in Spain Information also in česky, español, magyarul. 3 July 2008, Budapest, Madrid, Ostrava, Prague: Today, a coalition comprised of the Ostrava-based Group of Women Harmed by Sterilisation, the European Roma Rights Centre (ERRC) and the Peacework Development Fund launch a global campaign seeking support for Romani women victimised by coerced sterilisation practices in Czech Republic, Hungary and Slovakia. The campaign is supported by the Open Society Institute’s Public Health Program and the Heinrich Boll Stiftung Warsaw. The governments concerned have failed to react, through public apologies and compensation for the harms inflicted upon Romani women, to 5 years of targeted advocacy and lobbying by the victims and their advocates. Today, the survivors and their advocates turn to the global human rights movement to strengthen their efforts to secure justice, beginning with action around the 2008 Women’s Worlds Congress in Madrid, Spain, from 3-9 July, where the most pressing women’s rights matters from around the world will feature. The campaign includes a panel discussion on coerced sterilisation practices in Central Europe by survivors and their advocates, as well as a letter-writing campaign targeting key officials in Czech Republic , Hungary and Slovakia , calling on the respective governments to recognise the extreme human rights violations perpetrated on their territory and to ensure apologies and compensation for the survivors. Tell the governments concerned that it is time for action! Support the Romani survivors of coerced sterilisation in Czech Republic , Hungary and Slovakia by sending our postcard or letter, available on the ERRC website in English, Spanish, Czech, Hungarian and Slovak. For updates on our work at the Madrid Congress, the pamphlet and the postcards/letters, please visit the ERRC website at: http://www.errc.org/cikk.php?cikk=2965. Tell us you sent the letter or postcard, or otherwise supported the campaign, and join our online list of supporters by writing us at: compensation.now at errc.org. For further information or interviews, please contact: Group of Women Harmed by Sterilisation: *Elena Gorolova (Czech, Romanes), elena.gorolova at seznam.cz European Roma Rights Centre: * Anita Danka (Hungarian, English), Staff Attorney, anita.danka at errc.org *Ostalinda Maya (Spanish, English), Women’s Rights Consultant, ostalinda at gmail.com *Monika Pacziga (Hungarian, English), Women’s Rights Officer, monika.pacziga at errc.org Peacework Development Fund: *Gwendolyn Albert (Czech, English), Director of Women’s Initiatives Network, gwendolyn.albert at gmail.com During the Congress, the representatives can be reached on the following mobile numbers: +34.627.212.118 or +36.20.398.8303 or +420.774.895.444. Otherwise, please contact the ERRC office at: +36.1.413.2200. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The European Roma Rights Centre is an international public interest law organisation which monitors the human rights situation of Roma and provides legal defence in cases of human rights abuse. For more information about the European Roma Rights Centre, visit the ERRC on the web at http://www.errc.org To support the ERRC, please visit this link: http://www.errc.org/cikk.php?cikk=2735 European Roma Rights Centre 1386 Budapest 62 P.O. Box 906/93 Hungary Tel: +36.1.413.2200 Fax: +36.1.413.2201 We do not need magic to change the world, we carry all the power we need inside ourselves already: we have the power to imagine better. ...JK Rowling From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Jul 4 15:06:25 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 15:06:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat In-Reply-To: References: <9c06aab30807030822v65264b07p88ebd5cc5073e451@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990807040236t59f8c6a3i60b18844fae371cf@mail.gmail.com> Dear Radhikarajen, 1. I have friends, some of whom are Muslims. When I make friends, I look at whether or not I like them and if I can vibe with them. There caste / relegion or even lack thereof is irrelevant to me. 2. I stay in my own house and eat my own food. Though I do travel to my friends house and eat there as well. Does this mean that my body or mind is being held hostage? That logic is ridiculous. If you disagree with any statement or position that someone has taken, go ahead and disagree. However, none of us have super powers to be able to read anyone's mind and know why they are saying what - unless you're going to claim you do? Rgds, Partha .................................................. On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 12:57 PM, wrote: > Hi, Shivam, > > who is financing your stay in Srinagar, it looks like you are being held hostage with good food and your thoughts are that of a hostage talking good about his kidnappers.! By the way I hope you are guest of Gulam nabi or Mufti as both are known spin doctors who use the bakras like you.? > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:53 pm > Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat > To: sarai list > >> Tolerant Kashmiris >> 26 June, 2008 08:10:48 >> http://www.etalaat.net/english/viewpoint/editorial/1111.html >> >> Vested interests are all out to communalize the on-going agitation >> against transfer of forest land to the Amarnath Shrine Board. Time and >> again it has been made clear that the on-going agitation is not >> against the Yatra or the Yatries. The agitation is against >> politicization of the Yatra. Kashmiris want the government to entrust >> the job of conducting and facilitating Yatra to the local people who >> have been conducting it effectively since 1860. >> >> To understand the on-going agitation against land transfer in its >> right perspectives one has to look into the history of Kashmir.When >> important decisions concerning the future of Kashmir were taken >> Kashmiris were always ignored. In 1947 a decision was imposed on the >> reluctant people and since then the trend continues. In early 60s the >> government of India omitted Article 238 from Indian constitution and >> thus rendered article 370 infructious. The Article 370 which >> guarantees a special status to the state of Jammu Kashmir reads: "Not >> withstanding any thing nothing in Article 238 shall apply to the state >> of Jammu Kashmir." Article 370 is still there but article 238 which >> contained the heart and soul of 370 is not there in the constitution. >> Kashmiris to this day do not know about this fraud. >> >> Similarly the government of India abolished the permit system which >> required the non-state subjects to obtain a permit for entering the >> state. Again the people were not taken into confidence. In 1975 a >> popular movement was strangled. Again the people did not protest. In >> 1978 the draconian public safety act (PSA) was framed. People did not >> protest. In 1984 TADA was extended to the state. People remained >> silent. The Gulmarg issue shook them and the transfer of land did the >> miracle. Even this time the government had taken the people for >> granted. >> >> People are angry but they have not thrown caution to the winds. They >> have upheld the high traditions of tolerance and have not harmed any >> Yatri or a tourist. This is exactly what Islam teaches them. The >> Yatries are welcome and so are the tourists. Kashmiris are known for >> their hospitality and they will not disappoint the pilgrims and other >> guests. >> >> History is witness to the fact that Kashmiris have always protected >> their non-Muslim brethren. Hundreds of instances can be quoted to >> prove the point. However, the following incident shall suffice. A >> person who retired as the Chief Conservator of Forests lived in >> Shahr-e-Khaas during his college days. One day while on his way to the >> college he was intercepted by a crowd. Taken for a Bakra (A supporter >> of Mirwaiz Yusuf Shah) he was given sound thrashing. Somehow he ran >> away but only to be caught by another violent group. This time he was >> taken for a Sher (Supporter of Sheikh Abdullah) and beaten to pulp. >> Again he managed his escape. When caught for the third time, he >> shouted: "I am a Pandit." Nobody touched him this time. He was given >> safe passage. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Jul 4 15:18:42 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 15:18:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat In-Reply-To: <32144e990807040236t59f8c6a3i60b18844fae371cf@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030822v65264b07p88ebd5cc5073e451@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990807040236t59f8c6a3i60b18844fae371cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807040248o33f2c3b8pe1b13032851509a7@mail.gmail.com> Partha , you are not in public life....Shivam is . He is a journalist who creates public opinions. That makes a difference. Lastly ......what made Ghulam Nabi Azaad impose curfew in Jammu , while as Kashmir was let loose.. Pawan On 7/4/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Dear Radhikarajen, > > 1. I have friends, some of whom are Muslims. When I make friends, I > look at whether > or not I like them and if I can vibe with them. There caste / > relegion or even lack > thereof is irrelevant to me. > > 2. I stay in my own house and eat my own food. Though I do travel to > my friends house > and eat there as well. > > Does this mean that my body or mind is being held hostage? > > That logic is ridiculous. If you disagree with any statement or > position that someone has taken, go ahead and disagree. > > However, none of us have super powers to be able to read anyone's mind > and know why they are saying what - unless you're going to claim you > do? > > Rgds, Partha > .................................................. > > On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 12:57 PM, wrote: > > Hi, Shivam, > > > > who is financing your stay in Srinagar, it looks like you are being > held hostage with good food and your thoughts are that of a hostage talking > good about his kidnappers.! By the way I hope you are guest of Gulam nabi or > Mufti as both are known spin doctors who use the bakras like you.? > > > > Regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:53 pm > > Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat > > To: sarai list > > > >> Tolerant Kashmiris > >> 26 June, 2008 08:10:48 > >> http://www.etalaat.net/english/viewpoint/editorial/1111.html > >> > >> Vested interests are all out to communalize the on-going agitation > >> against transfer of forest land to the Amarnath Shrine Board. Time and > >> again it has been made clear that the on-going agitation is not > >> against the Yatra or the Yatries. The agitation is against > >> politicization of the Yatra. Kashmiris want the government to entrust > >> the job of conducting and facilitating Yatra to the local people who > >> have been conducting it effectively since 1860. > >> > >> To understand the on-going agitation against land transfer in its > >> right perspectives one has to look into the history of Kashmir.When > >> important decisions concerning the future of Kashmir were taken > >> Kashmiris were always ignored. In 1947 a decision was imposed on the > >> reluctant people and since then the trend continues. In early 60s the > >> government of India omitted Article 238 from Indian constitution and > >> thus rendered article 370 infructious. The Article 370 which > >> guarantees a special status to the state of Jammu Kashmir reads: "Not > >> withstanding any thing nothing in Article 238 shall apply to the state > >> of Jammu Kashmir." Article 370 is still there but article 238 which > >> contained the heart and soul of 370 is not there in the constitution. > >> Kashmiris to this day do not know about this fraud. > >> > >> Similarly the government of India abolished the permit system which > >> required the non-state subjects to obtain a permit for entering the > >> state. Again the people were not taken into confidence. In 1975 a > >> popular movement was strangled. Again the people did not protest. In > >> 1978 the draconian public safety act (PSA) was framed. People did not > >> protest. In 1984 TADA was extended to the state. People remained > >> silent. The Gulmarg issue shook them and the transfer of land did the > >> miracle. Even this time the government had taken the people for > >> granted. > >> > >> People are angry but they have not thrown caution to the winds. They > >> have upheld the high traditions of tolerance and have not harmed any > >> Yatri or a tourist. This is exactly what Islam teaches them. The > >> Yatries are welcome and so are the tourists. Kashmiris are known for > >> their hospitality and they will not disappoint the pilgrims and other > >> guests. > >> > >> History is witness to the fact that Kashmiris have always protected > >> their non-Muslim brethren. Hundreds of instances can be quoted to > >> prove the point. However, the following incident shall suffice. A > >> person who retired as the Chief Conservator of Forests lived in > >> Shahr-e-Khaas during his college days. One day while on his way to the > >> college he was intercepted by a crowd. Taken for a Bakra (A supporter > >> of Mirwaiz Yusuf Shah) he was given sound thrashing. Somehow he ran > >> away but only to be caught by another violent group. This time he was > >> taken for a Sher (Supporter of Sheikh Abdullah) and beaten to pulp. > >> Again he managed his escape. When caught for the third time, he > >> shouted: "I am a Pandit." Nobody touched him this time. He was given > >> safe passage. > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> list > >> List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From delhi.yunus at gmail.com Fri Jul 4 15:38:54 2008 From: delhi.yunus at gmail.com (Syed Yunus) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 15:38:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70807040248o33f2c3b8pe1b13032851509a7@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030822v65264b07p88ebd5cc5073e451@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990807040236t59f8c6a3i60b18844fae371cf@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807040248o33f2c3b8pe1b13032851509a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: As I understand, private,public, local, indigenous, religious,communal,national so on and so forth !! all these are just terms & concepts to understand 'life' and not segments of life. and all of these have been used and abused by many. As far as ' non public life ' comments of Partha are concerned, I don't see any reason why It won't create any opinion. public or what so ever. Yunus On 7/4/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Partha , > > you are not in public life....Shivam is . He is a journalist who creates > public opinions. > > That makes a difference. > > Lastly ......what made Ghulam Nabi Azaad impose curfew in Jammu , while as > Kashmir was let loose.. > > Pawan > > > On 7/4/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > Dear Radhikarajen, > > > > 1. I have friends, some of whom are Muslims. When I make friends, I > > look at whether > > or not I like them and if I can vibe with them. There caste / > > relegion or even lack > > thereof is irrelevant to me. > > > > 2. I stay in my own house and eat my own food. Though I do travel to > > my friends house > > and eat there as well. > > > > Does this mean that my body or mind is being held hostage? > > > > That logic is ridiculous. If you disagree with any statement or > > position that someone has taken, go ahead and disagree. > > > > However, none of us have super powers to be able to read anyone's mind > > and know why they are saying what - unless you're going to claim you > > do? > > > > Rgds, Partha > > .................................................. > > > > On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 12:57 PM, wrote: > > > Hi, Shivam, > > > > > > who is financing your stay in Srinagar, it looks like you are being > > held hostage with good food and your thoughts are that of a hostage > talking > > good about his kidnappers.! By the way I hope you are guest of Gulam nabi > or > > Mufti as both are known spin doctors who use the bakras like you.? > > > > > > Regards. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > > > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:53 pm > > > Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat > > > To: sarai list > > > > > >> Tolerant Kashmiris > > >> 26 June, 2008 08:10:48 > > >> http://www.etalaat.net/english/viewpoint/editorial/1111.html > > >> > > >> Vested interests are all out to communalize the on-going agitation > > >> against transfer of forest land to the Amarnath Shrine Board. Time and > > >> again it has been made clear that the on-going agitation is not > > >> against the Yatra or the Yatries. The agitation is against > > >> politicization of the Yatra. Kashmiris want the government to entrust > > >> the job of conducting and facilitating Yatra to the local people who > > >> have been conducting it effectively since 1860. > > >> > > >> To understand the on-going agitation against land transfer in its > > >> right perspectives one has to look into the history of Kashmir.When > > >> important decisions concerning the future of Kashmir were taken > > >> Kashmiris were always ignored. In 1947 a decision was imposed on the > > >> reluctant people and since then the trend continues. In early 60s the > > >> government of India omitted Article 238 from Indian constitution and > > >> thus rendered article 370 infructious. The Article 370 which > > >> guarantees a special status to the state of Jammu Kashmir reads: "Not > > >> withstanding any thing nothing in Article 238 shall apply to the state > > >> of Jammu Kashmir." Article 370 is still there but article 238 which > > >> contained the heart and soul of 370 is not there in the constitution. > > >> Kashmiris to this day do not know about this fraud. > > >> > > >> Similarly the government of India abolished the permit system which > > >> required the non-state subjects to obtain a permit for entering the > > >> state. Again the people were not taken into confidence. In 1975 a > > >> popular movement was strangled. Again the people did not protest. In > > >> 1978 the draconian public safety act (PSA) was framed. People did not > > >> protest. In 1984 TADA was extended to the state. People remained > > >> silent. The Gulmarg issue shook them and the transfer of land did the > > >> miracle. Even this time the government had taken the people for > > >> granted. > > >> > > >> People are angry but they have not thrown caution to the winds. They > > >> have upheld the high traditions of tolerance and have not harmed any > > >> Yatri or a tourist. This is exactly what Islam teaches them. The > > >> Yatries are welcome and so are the tourists. Kashmiris are known for > > >> their hospitality and they will not disappoint the pilgrims and other > > >> guests. > > >> > > >> History is witness to the fact that Kashmiris have always protected > > >> their non-Muslim brethren. Hundreds of instances can be quoted to > > >> prove the point. However, the following incident shall suffice. A > > >> person who retired as the Chief Conservator of Forests lived in > > >> Shahr-e-Khaas during his college days. One day while on his way to the > > >> college he was intercepted by a crowd. Taken for a Bakra (A supporter > > >> of Mirwaiz Yusuf Shah) he was given sound thrashing. Somehow he ran > > >> away but only to be caught by another violent group. This time he was > > >> taken for a Sher (Supporter of Sheikh Abdullah) and beaten to pulp. > > >> Again he managed his escape. When caught for the third time, he > > >> shouted: "I am a Pandit." Nobody touched him this time. He was given > > >> safe passage. > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > >> list > > >> List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919811047132 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Change is the only constant in life ! From oishiksircar at gmail.com Fri Jul 4 15:47:34 2008 From: oishiksircar at gmail.com (OISHIK SIRCAR) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 15:47:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Necropolis: rehearsing Koltes in such times.... Message-ID: <62cba67a0807040317m4a41c110j50a807ff161d2e10@mail.gmail.com> *Necropolis: rehearsing Koltes in such times....* ** *dedicated to the 60th Birth Celebrations of Bernard-Marie Koltes * ** a play by Best of Kolkata Campus direction and dramaturgy: Parnab Mukherjee inspired from In the Solitude of Cottonfields by Bernard Marie Koltes additional text: Yulembam Ibomcha, Prabal Kumar Basu, Thangjam Ibopishak, Rajkumar Bhubonsana, Bhaskar Chakraborty and Rabindranath Tagore (Necropolis is a part of a three part repertoire called The Trilogy of Unrest...the first two of them also Best of Kolkata Campus productions' are Hamletmachine: Images of Shakespeare-in-us and Raktakarabi-an urban sound opera. Collaborations: Janardan Ghosh, Partha Majumdar, Gautam Bajoria, Rohit Singh Rana, Gopika Jadeja, Hitesh Tekchandani, Aankhi Majumdar, communityscope, Oglam, Sailpik, Insomnia, Suha Chakraborty, Amruta, Swati, Aditi, Shilpa, Renee, Sanjeev and Anjan Dasgupta. The repertoire tours north-east, Siliguri, Kolkata, Delhi, Jaipur Pune, Mumbai and Gangtok. The touring performance will culminate in the release of a special commemorative edition of Five Issues on Indian theatre and subversions-dedicated to Badal Sircar, Vijay Tendulkar and Arambam Samarendra. A special booklet on Towards an Indian Shakespeare will also be published for the occasion. Both these publications have been curated by Best of Kolkata Campus) *at Earthcare Books, 10 Middleton Street, Kolkata-71 (Inside the premises of Drive Inn...next to Middleton Chambers and exactly opposite OLD Kenilworth hotel)* *July 5, Saturday, 5.15pm* ** ** ** *Synopsis: * Two men meet on the street. They have to make a deal. Or rather they want to make a deal. One has something to sale and the other needs something to buy. The Dealer is unsure what to peddle or would he want to peddle anything at the first place. The Client knows what he has to buy but does not know exactly what to buy. A cat and mouse begins between these nameless, faceless, shapeshifters who has to make a transaction which they are not sure why would they do it. For the next chunk of minutes they indulge in selling and buying of concepts without transacting anything. What are they selling? Or rather who is buying.....Is technology, displacement, memories, genocide road-map of the universe..becoming so routine that we have lost the power to engage with them and provide a soothing balm to the displaced, destitute, fried, barbecued, roasted, killed human-folk. More often than not we are groping for words to describe routine violence. Routine cases of racial profiling. Of exclusion. Grappling with stereotypes. Cliches. Biases on the basis of human rights. On ethical treatment of animals who become globalised pharma companies experimental guinea pigs. Biases on the basis of sexual orientation. We are looking at images and we think either they supplement the words or complement them. Is image only a memory tool? Is it just a visual metaphor? Is it just to learn things by heart? By rote > What is a perfomance? Merely a text or an improvisation or a series of > theatre exercises which are prescribed as typical workshop methods > The performance probes into the image -word relationship ....gets into into > the rationale of images.......... > What images are we looking at? Nelllie-Morichjhaanpi, Malom, Mokokchung, Nandigram... What was the process of transforming the "us" into "them".....How are "they" celebrating diversity and "their" culturalness in these times? The performance negotiates these terrain. By the time..the performance ends..nobody has bought...nobody has sold..yet those two individuals have transformed themselves enough to be probably up for sale if the next set of clients gatecrash into the narrative the play explores the idiom of solo performance with city-specific collaborators who intrude, alter and tamper the natre of the performance..yet there is an unified thread that runs through these structured improvisations.... *Best of Kolkata Campus: * Best of Kolkata Campus-a performance company has completed 15 years of doing dedicated campus theatre in found spaces and public arena. It has produced a number of young theatre workers' who are active in the cultural and audio-visual training arena. It is a loosely formed collective of individuals who believe that theatre is an important an independent tool of dissent outside the ambit of party politics. Some of the most memorable productions of the group include *Hamletmachine*, *Antigone*, *Raktakarabi-an urban sound opera*, *Bhul Rasta*, *Kasper-dipped and shredded*, *They Also Work*, *River Monologues'*, *Dead-Talk series, Coversations with the dead, Crisis of Civilisation, Shakespeare shorts, Man to Man talk, Inviting Ibsen for a Dinner with Ibsen* and *And the Dead Tree Gives no Shelter* The group also works in the field of installation performances and theatre-of-conflict-resolution and peace studies. It has extenstively travelled all over the country doing shows, giving workshops and exploring alternative performance idioms. -- OISHIK SIRCAR Scholar in Women's Rights Faculty of Law, University of Toronto oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Jul 4 17:36:09 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 17:06:09 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat In-Reply-To: <32144e990807040236t59f8c6a3i60b18844fae371cf@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030822v65264b07p88ebd5cc5073e451@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990807040236t59f8c6a3i60b18844fae371cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Partha, all of us have friends, irrespective of our friends belonging to any faith, region or caste, they are friends who share thoughts, but being journalists, it is additional responsibilty when one reports from the site of incidents, as impartial humanely possible without the prism of faith, caste or region. Shivam as journalist is biased is my opinion, you may or may not agree. For from 1947, the segment of this kashimiri society was driven out, so that one faith followers became majority, in other parts of India, governance saw that society was divided on regions and castes and thus society was divided so that ruling modern maharajas could rule without any accountability, with uneducated politically naive voters held to slogans which were never kept as promises. Now with higher awareness, each segment demanding its share, the democratic rule is more a demand than share of the pizza for each segment.? A kashmiri whether muslim or of any faith has come and settled down even south of Vindhyas, purchased properties, is doing business, legal or illegal, but most of the time if caught with narcotics and drug trade, common refrain is he is being victimised because he is from a particular faith. ! This freedom is not for others in India to do even legal business in kashmir., to own property, how then the state can not but live in isolation occassionally creating hell for pilgrims and tourists ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Partha Dasgupta Date: Friday, July 4, 2008 3:06 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Cc: sarai list > Dear Radhikarajen, > > 1. I have friends, some of whom are Muslims. When I make > friends, I > look at whether > or not I like them and if I can vibe with them. There caste / > relegion or even lack > thereof is irrelevant to me. > > 2. I stay in my own house and eat my own food. Though I do > travel to > my friends house > and eat there as well. > > Does this mean that my body or mind is being held hostage? > > That logic is ridiculous. If you disagree with any statement or > position that someone has taken, go ahead and disagree. > > However, none of us have super powers to be able to read anyone's mind > and know why they are saying what - unless you're going to claim you > do? > > Rgds, Partha > .................................................. > > On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 12:57 PM, wrote: > > Hi, Shivam, > > > > who is financing your stay in Srinagar, it looks like you > are being held hostage with good food and your thoughts are that > of a hostage talking good about his kidnappers.! By the way I hope > you are guest of Gulam nabi or Mufti as both are known spin > doctors who use the bakras like you.? > > > > Regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:53 pm > > Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat > > To: sarai list > > > >> Tolerant Kashmiris > >> 26 June, 2008 08:10:48 > >> http://www.etalaat.net/english/viewpoint/editorial/1111.html > >> > >> Vested interests are all out to communalize the on-going agitation > >> against transfer of forest land to the Amarnath Shrine Board. > Time and > >> again it has been made clear that the on-going agitation is not > >> against the Yatra or the Yatries. The agitation is against > >> politicization of the Yatra. Kashmiris want the government to > entrust>> the job of conducting and facilitating Yatra to the > local people who > >> have been conducting it effectively since 1860. > >> > >> To understand the on-going agitation against land transfer in its > >> right perspectives one has to look into the history of Kashmir.When > >> important decisions concerning the future of Kashmir were taken > >> Kashmiris were always ignored. In 1947 a decision was imposed > on the > >> reluctant people and since then the trend continues. In early > 60s the > >> government of India omitted Article 238 from Indian > constitution and > >> thus rendered article 370 infructious. The Article 370 which > >> guarantees a special status to the state of Jammu Kashmir > reads: "Not > >> withstanding any thing nothing in Article 238 shall apply to > the state > >> of Jammu Kashmir." Article 370 is still there but article 238 which > >> contained the heart and soul of 370 is not there in the > constitution.>> Kashmiris to this day do not know about this fraud. > >> > >> Similarly the government of India abolished the permit system which > >> required the non-state subjects to obtain a permit for entering the > >> state. Again the people were not taken into confidence. In > 1975 a > >> popular movement was strangled. Again the people did not > protest. In > >> 1978 the draconian public safety act (PSA) was framed. People > did not > >> protest. In 1984 TADA was extended to the state. People remained > >> silent. The Gulmarg issue shook them and the transfer of land > did the > >> miracle. Even this time the government had taken the people for > >> granted. > >> > >> People are angry but they have not thrown caution to the winds. > They>> have upheld the high traditions of tolerance and have not > harmed any > >> Yatri or a tourist. This is exactly what Islam teaches them. The > >> Yatries are welcome and so are the tourists. Kashmiris are > known for > >> their hospitality and they will not disappoint the pilgrims and > other>> guests. > >> > >> History is witness to the fact that Kashmiris have always protected > >> their non-Muslim brethren. Hundreds of instances can be quoted to > >> prove the point. However, the following incident shall suffice. A > >> person who retired as the Chief Conservator of Forests lived in > >> Shahr-e-Khaas during his college days. One day while on his way > to the > >> college he was intercepted by a crowd. Taken for a Bakra (A > supporter>> of Mirwaiz Yusuf Shah) he was given sound thrashing. > Somehow he ran > >> away but only to be caught by another violent group. This time > he was > >> taken for a Sher (Supporter of Sheikh Abdullah) and beaten to pulp. > >> Again he managed his escape. When caught for the third time, he > >> shouted: "I am a Pandit." Nobody touched him this time. He was > given>> safe passage. > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> list > >> List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Jul 4 19:35:33 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 19:35:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat In-Reply-To: References: <9c06aab30807030822v65264b07p88ebd5cc5073e451@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990807040236t59f8c6a3i60b18844fae371cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990807040705jb945d09h5ea06c2f66c36fe7@mail.gmail.com> Dear Radhikarajen, Now your bias is showing through. Just because some Kashmiri's were caught with drugs or supplied them does not make all Kashmiri's drug suppliers. In any case, as a human being, it is impossibe to be completely unbiased. At the end of the day, every person - whether a journalist or otherwise - will present the 'truth' as they see it. You yourself mentioned being a journalist in a thread from the days where salary was a pittance, and yet have clumped all Kashmiri Muslims as drug suppliers. Just for the heck of it, since you've mentioned "most of the time if caught with narcotics and drug trade" - how many Kashmiri Muslim's have been caught in the drug trade in India versus non-Muslims? Am asking this since you as a journalist (or an ex-journalist now, in case you've retired) would as per your belief in the truth have done some research before making such far reaching general statements. Like I said, your reasoning does not wash. If you disagree with what Shivam says (or for that matter, anyone else) - go ahead and trot out your points - unless you're claiming that God has suddenly given you insight into what someone's thinking and their whole life so that you totally understand where they are coming from. Rgds, Partha .......................... On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 5:36 PM, wrote: > Partha, > > all of us have friends, irrespective of our friends belonging to any faith, region or caste, they are friends who share thoughts, but being journalists, it is additional responsibilty when one reports from the site of incidents, as impartial humanely possible without the prism of faith, caste or region. Shivam as journalist is biased is my opinion, you may or may not agree. For from 1947, the segment of this kashimiri society was driven out, so that one faith followers became majority, in other parts of India, governance saw that society was divided on regions and castes and thus society was divided so that ruling modern maharajas could rule without any accountability, with uneducated politically naive voters held to slogans which were never kept as promises. Now with higher awareness, each segment demanding its share, the democratic rule is more a demand than share of the pizza for each segment.? > > A kashmiri whether muslim or of any faith has come and settled down even south of Vindhyas, purchased properties, is doing business, legal or illegal, but most of the time if caught with narcotics and drug trade, common refrain is he is being victimised because he is from a particular faith. ! This freedom is not for others in India to do even legal business in kashmir., to own property, how then the state can not but live in isolation occassionally creating hell for pilgrims and tourists ? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Partha Dasgupta > Date: Friday, July 4, 2008 3:06 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Cc: sarai list > >> Dear Radhikarajen, >> >> 1. I have friends, some of whom are Muslims. When I make >> friends, I >> look at whether >> or not I like them and if I can vibe with them. There caste / >> relegion or even lack >> thereof is irrelevant to me. >> >> 2. I stay in my own house and eat my own food. Though I do >> travel to >> my friends house >> and eat there as well. >> >> Does this mean that my body or mind is being held hostage? >> >> That logic is ridiculous. If you disagree with any statement or >> position that someone has taken, go ahead and disagree. >> >> However, none of us have super powers to be able to read anyone's mind >> and know why they are saying what - unless you're going to claim you >> do? >> >> Rgds, Partha >> .................................................. >> >> On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 12:57 PM, wrote: >> > Hi, Shivam, >> > >> > who is financing your stay in Srinagar, it looks like you >> are being held hostage with good food and your thoughts are that >> of a hostage talking good about his kidnappers.! By the way I hope >> you are guest of Gulam nabi or Mufti as both are known spin >> doctors who use the bakras like you.? >> > >> > Regards. >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् >> > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:53 pm >> > Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat >> > To: sarai list >> > >> >> Tolerant Kashmiris >> >> 26 June, 2008 08:10:48 >> >> http://www.etalaat.net/english/viewpoint/editorial/1111.html >> >> >> >> Vested interests are all out to communalize the on-going agitation >> >> against transfer of forest land to the Amarnath Shrine Board. >> Time and >> >> again it has been made clear that the on-going agitation is not >> >> against the Yatra or the Yatries. The agitation is against >> >> politicization of the Yatra. Kashmiris want the government to >> entrust>> the job of conducting and facilitating Yatra to the >> local people who >> >> have been conducting it effectively since 1860. >> >> >> >> To understand the on-going agitation against land transfer in its >> >> right perspectives one has to look into the history of Kashmir.When >> >> important decisions concerning the future of Kashmir were taken >> >> Kashmiris were always ignored. In 1947 a decision was imposed >> on the >> >> reluctant people and since then the trend continues. In early >> 60s the >> >> government of India omitted Article 238 from Indian >> constitution and >> >> thus rendered article 370 infructious. The Article 370 which >> >> guarantees a special status to the state of Jammu Kashmir >> reads: "Not >> >> withstanding any thing nothing in Article 238 shall apply to >> the state >> >> of Jammu Kashmir." Article 370 is still there but article 238 which >> >> contained the heart and soul of 370 is not there in the >> constitution.>> Kashmiris to this day do not know about this fraud. >> >> >> >> Similarly the government of India abolished the permit system which >> >> required the non-state subjects to obtain a permit for entering the >> >> state. Again the people were not taken into confidence. In >> 1975 a >> >> popular movement was strangled. Again the people did not >> protest. In >> >> 1978 the draconian public safety act (PSA) was framed. People >> did not >> >> protest. In 1984 TADA was extended to the state. People remained >> >> silent. The Gulmarg issue shook them and the transfer of land >> did the >> >> miracle. Even this time the government had taken the people for >> >> granted. >> >> >> >> People are angry but they have not thrown caution to the winds. >> They>> have upheld the high traditions of tolerance and have not >> harmed any >> >> Yatri or a tourist. This is exactly what Islam teaches them. The >> >> Yatries are welcome and so are the tourists. Kashmiris are >> known for >> >> their hospitality and they will not disappoint the pilgrims and >> other>> guests. >> >> >> >> History is witness to the fact that Kashmiris have always protected >> >> their non-Muslim brethren. Hundreds of instances can be quoted to >> >> prove the point. However, the following incident shall suffice. A >> >> person who retired as the Chief Conservator of Forests lived in >> >> Shahr-e-Khaas during his college days. One day while on his way >> to the >> >> college he was intercepted by a crowd. Taken for a Bakra (A >> supporter>> of Mirwaiz Yusuf Shah) he was given sound thrashing. >> Somehow he ran >> >> away but only to be caught by another violent group. This time >> he was >> >> taken for a Sher (Supporter of Sheikh Abdullah) and beaten to pulp. >> >> Again he managed his escape. When caught for the third time, he >> >> shouted: "I am a Pandit." Nobody touched him this time. He was >> given>> safe passage. >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> >> list >> >> List archive: >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> -- >> Partha Dasgupta >> +919811047132 >> > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Jul 4 20:03:34 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 20:03:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amarnath row reignites Azadi sentiments In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70807031101uc92396eoe35ae3e201ae031c@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030803x4bec38cer3b90a7001304f956@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807031101uc92396eoe35ae3e201ae031c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70807040733k378dced3w9c4fff488ff89595@mail.gmail.com> now POLITICALLY, i see, THERE IS A DEEP MISTRUST BETWEEN HINDUS AND MUSLIMS OF JAMMU AND KASHMIR AND YET THERE IS SO MUCH OF TRADE, FRIENDSHIP AND HARMONEY AT THE GRASS ROOT LEVEL...but politics seems to win in the ends, sadly.... now since this sharp divide has come to the fore, i find this an opportunity to doubt the existence of the God.... i dont personally want a debate on that.... but we can atleast behaves like SCEPTICS... that might perhaps give us a chance to realize the minds of saints poets and wise people in the past and in the present...if that had not happened they too might not have been there..... even prophets and gods have come to to earth because they had the courage to doubt ... i guess it is this doubt that gives us the idea of universal love.... strong belief in this or that might finally harm our own undertanding of the self... choice is ours with love inder salim On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 11:31 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > And the Jammu news doesnt appeal to the born slaves. > > On 7/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> Dear Shivam, >> >> Thank you for your reports from the valley. They help us get a >> clearer image of the situation and what people are thinking and saying. >> >> best >> >> Shuddha >> On 03-Jul-08, at 8:33 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> > [As published this morning] >> > >> > >> > Amarnath row reignites azadi sentiment >> > >> > Shivam Vij / Srinagar >> > Sakaal Times / 3 July >> > http://epaper.sakaaltimes.com >> > >> > >> > The writing on the wall is clear: The Kashmiri demand for independence >> > from India is not over yet. Separatist leaders and commoners alike >> > have hailed the withdrawal of the land transfer order as the victory >> > of the Kashmiri people and called to revitalise the azadi movement. >> > >> > This is clearly a turning point in the 20-year-old militant struggle. >> > There is also talk of boycotting the coming assembly polls and >> > reunification of the two factions of the Hurriyat Conference. The mood >> > was reflected in every local daily's frontpage headlines. PEOPLE WIN, >> > said Greater Kashmir. Kashmir Savours Victory, said the Kashmir >> > Observer. Kashmir win, said Amroze Kashmir. VICTORY! said Etalaat. >> > People win, Order revoked, said Kashmir Monitor. >> > >> > The emphasis that it was a people's agitation rather than one of >> > leaders is shared by everyone. The sentiment is shared by every taxi >> > driver, shopkeeper, houseboat-owner, journalist — too widespread >> > to be >> > brushed away as anybody's political gimmick. The agitation was lead by >> > the ACALT committee which had, apart from Hurriyat leaders, apolitical >> > religious leaders, representatives from trade and transporters' >> > organisation's, the Kashmir Chambers of Commerce and the Bar Council. >> > >> > Vehement support was given by the Valley's Sikhs and most Kashmiri >> > Pandit organisations as well. The biggest winner is Hurriyat leader >> > Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who was the first to begin mobilising the >> > public with a signature campaign. In a press conference on Wednesday, >> > he emphasised: "This punctures New Delhi's theory that our movement is >> > standing on Pakistani support," he said, adding, "did you see a single >> > agitator using violence?" "The movement lives on in the hearts and >> > minds of the people," he told Sakaal Times. >> > >> > The relatively smooth rule of the PDP-Congress coalition and the >> > decline in militancy had led observers to believe that people's >> > participation in polls could increase. "Nobody will vote now," said >> > Etalaat editor Zahiruddin. In fact NC's Omar Abdullah is believed to >> > have said as much to the NSA in his meeting with him in Delhi. >> > >> > "Mainstream politicians in the Valley who believed the movement was on >> > its deathbed have got a rude jolt," he said. "This is very unpleasant >> > for the Indian government and intelligence agencies who were already >> > talking of a postconflict scenario," says human rights activist Parvez >> > Imroz. >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Jul 4 20:07:38 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 20:07:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FW: Presidential Library In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47e122a70807040737r6fe92ba6g21b39d3bee193f5a@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Fwd: Presidential Library The George W Bush Presidential Library is now in the planning stages. The Library will include: The Hurricane Katrina Room, which is still under construction. The Alberto Gonzales Room, where you won't be able to remember anything. The Texas Air National Guard Room, where you don't even have to show up. The Walter Reed Hospital Room, where they don't let you in. The Guantanamo Bay Room, where they don't let you out. The Weapons of Mass Destruction Room, which no one has been able to find. The National Debt room which is huge and has no ceiling. The 'Tax Cut' Room with entry only to the wealthy. The 'Economy Room' which is in the toilet. The Iraq War Room. After you complete your first tour, they make you to go back for a second, third, fourth, and sometimes fifth tour. The Dick Cheney Room, in the famous undisclosed location, complete with shotgun gallery. The Environmental Conservation Room, still empty. The Supremes Gift Shop, where you can buy an election. The Airport Men's Room, where you can meet some of your favorite Republican Senators. The 'Decider Room' complete with dart board, magic 8-ball, Ouija board, dice, coins, and straws. The museum will have an electron microscope to help you locate the President's accomplishments. Admission: Republicans � free; Democrats -- $1000 or 3 Euros ________________________________ Send funny voice messages packed with tidbits from MSN. Everyone wants to be ready. ________________________________ Llama a tus amigos de PC a PC: ¡Es GRATIS! Pruébalo -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Jul 4 23:29:01 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 23:29:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amarnath row reignites Azadi sentiments In-Reply-To: <47e122a70807040733k378dced3w9c4fff488ff89595@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030803x4bec38cer3b90a7001304f956@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807031101uc92396eoe35ae3e201ae031c@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70807040733k378dced3w9c4fff488ff89595@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807041059t2bbf0aa4l9684f2fb2f236df8@mail.gmail.com> Hello Salim Whom are you trying to deceive by saying "YET THERE IS SO MUCH OF TRADE, FRIENDSHIP AND HARMONEY AT THE GRASS ROOT LEVEL" Which grass in Kashmir are you taling about ? The grass which has been soaked with the blood of innocent hindus ? or the grass on which the hindus have not stepped on since last 19 years ? Or the grass , which you left to live in eastern part of Delhi ? or the grass which made you Salim from Inder ? Which grass ? Pawan On 7/4/08, inder salim wrote: > > now POLITICALLY, i see, THERE IS A DEEP MISTRUST BETWEEN HINDUS AND > MUSLIMS OF JAMMU AND KASHMIR AND YET THERE IS SO MUCH OF TRADE, > FRIENDSHIP AND HARMONEY AT THE GRASS ROOT LEVEL...but politics seems > to win in the ends, sadly.... > > now since this sharp divide has come to the fore, i find this an > opportunity to doubt the existence of the God.... i dont personally > want a debate on that.... but we can atleast behaves like SCEPTICS... > that might perhaps give us a chance to realize the minds of saints > poets and wise people in the past and in the present...if that had not > happened they too might not have been there..... even prophets and > gods have come to to earth because they had the courage to doubt ... > > i guess it is this doubt that gives us the idea of universal love.... > strong belief in this or that might finally harm our own undertanding > of the self... > > choice is ours > > with love > inder salim > > > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 11:31 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > And the Jammu news doesnt appeal to the born slaves. > > > > On 7/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> > >> Dear Shivam, > >> > >> Thank you for your reports from the valley. They help us get a > >> clearer image of the situation and what people are thinking and saying. > >> > >> best > >> > >> Shuddha > >> On 03-Jul-08, at 8:33 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > >> > >> > [As published this morning] > >> > > >> > > >> > Amarnath row reignites azadi sentiment > >> > > >> > Shivam Vij / Srinagar > >> > Sakaal Times / 3 July > >> > http://epaper.sakaaltimes.com > >> > > >> > > >> > The writing on the wall is clear: The Kashmiri demand for independence > >> > from India is not over yet. Separatist leaders and commoners alike > >> > have hailed the withdrawal of the land transfer order as the victory > >> > of the Kashmiri people and called to revitalise the azadi movement. > >> > > >> > This is clearly a turning point in the 20-year-old militant struggle. > >> > There is also talk of boycotting the coming assembly polls and > >> > reunification of the two factions of the Hurriyat Conference. The mood > >> > was reflected in every local daily's frontpage headlines. PEOPLE WIN, > >> > said Greater Kashmir. Kashmir Savours Victory, said the Kashmir > >> > Observer. Kashmir win, said Amroze Kashmir. VICTORY! said Etalaat. > >> > People win, Order revoked, said Kashmir Monitor. > >> > > >> > The emphasis that it was a people's agitation rather than one of > >> > leaders is shared by everyone. The sentiment is shared by every taxi > >> > driver, shopkeeper, houseboat-owner, journalist — too widespread > >> > to be > >> > brushed away as anybody's political gimmick. The agitation was lead by > >> > the ACALT committee which had, apart from Hurriyat leaders, apolitical > >> > religious leaders, representatives from trade and transporters' > >> > organisation's, the Kashmir Chambers of Commerce and the Bar Council. > >> > > >> > Vehement support was given by the Valley's Sikhs and most Kashmiri > >> > Pandit organisations as well. The biggest winner is Hurriyat leader > >> > Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who was the first to begin mobilising the > >> > public with a signature campaign. In a press conference on Wednesday, > >> > he emphasised: "This punctures New Delhi's theory that our movement is > >> > standing on Pakistani support," he said, adding, "did you see a single > >> > agitator using violence?" "The movement lives on in the hearts and > >> > minds of the people," he told Sakaal Times. > >> > > >> > The relatively smooth rule of the PDP-Congress coalition and the > >> > decline in militancy had led observers to believe that people's > >> > participation in polls could increase. "Nobody will vote now," said > >> > Etalaat editor Zahiruddin. In fact NC's Omar Abdullah is believed to > >> > have said as much to the NSA in his meeting with him in Delhi. > >> > > >> > "Mainstream politicians in the Valley who believed the movement was on > >> > its deathbed have got a rude jolt," he said. "This is very unpleasant > >> > for the Indian government and intelligence agencies who were already > >> > talking of a postconflict scenario," says human rights activist Parvez > >> > Imroz. > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS > >> Raqs Media Collective > >> shuddha at sarai.net > >> www.sarai.net > >> www.raqsmediacollective.net > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 4 23:54:39 2008 From: kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk (Kashmir Affairs) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 18:24:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu Muslim relations in Kashmir by Dr. Rattan Lal Hangloo In-Reply-To: <32144e990807040705jb945d09h5ea06c2f66c36fe7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <394276.47776.qm@web27808.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Glimpses of Hindu-Muslim Relations in Kashmir Rattan Lal Hangloo (March 2008) [www.kashmiraffairs.org] http://www.kashmiraffairs.org/hangloo_hindu_muslim_relations_in_kashmir.html Transcending from their animistic traditions, Kashmiris have changed and adopted many religions over the centuries. Stemming from various tribes in antiquity, they became Buddhists and contributed significantly in spreading it across China and Central Asia. From 4th century A.D., while Buddhism was on the wane, they evolved region specific Shaivism, (Agamas) Vaishnavite, Tantric, Shakta traditions and Mother Goddess cults. >From tenth century A.D., Islamic influences began to permeate with increasing presence of Turks, Persians and Arabs who entered as soldiers, craftsmen, traders and Sufis. In 14th century A.D., Kashmiris increasingly turned towards Islam at popular level and became Muslims as majority community. Most of the converts came from popular base, including the peasants, craftsmen and other professions. Those who continued to adhere to the Shaivism began to be termed as Pandits. Even though the conversion process from Hinduism to Islam continued, 14th century A.D. marks a watershed in Hindu-Muslim relations. The examination of historical sources establishes the fact that barring some stray instances of force, the conversion was voluntary. Consequently, one does not come across a single piece of evidence illustrating public protest against the conversions. In Kashmir, the first use of the term Hindukas was employed by the Sanskrit chronicler Jonaraja in early 15th century. Until then the Hindus were as Buddhists, Shavites, Vaishnavites, Tantriks, Shaktas, and worshipers of varied mother Goddess and other cults. On many occasions Buddhists and Shavites clashed with each other very brutally. This was the case with other cults which ultimately got incorporated into Hinduism. This needs to be emphasized that religion was perceived from a different perspective in medieval times than at present.  Thought, the basic religious scriptures of both Muslims and Hindus were same, the  public perception and practice of religion varied. Until most recent times the majority of Kashmiri people in both the communities, were illiterate with no  access to their scriptures.  Therefore, their understanding of religion was limited, occasionally tutored by their priestly. These priests rarely shared a moment with the vast community except on the occasions of death or a few other ceremonies. To see large crowds of worshipers both Hindus and Muslims in their respective spaces listening to sermons of their preachers and teachers is a recent phenomenon. In my village Hangalgund, in Anantnag, also known as Islamabad, there were around fifty Hindu and thirty Muslim families. Majority of them had neither the time nor the scriptural understanding of their respective religions. The Muslims were professionally divided and this division was reflected in their practice of religion as well. Pandits lived in the centre of the village.  On the southern border of the village were the Muslims who ran water mills or Greata hence called Greata Waeli. The northern border was inhabited by less than dozen of peasant families with one of them also engaged in tailoring. The western side was taken by more than a dozen houses of Dombes, who  sold their labour like freemen in Western Europe. They were treated as the lowest category by their fellow Muslims and therefore faced wide discrimination; they could never smoke the same hookah or share the same space or a meal with the other two groups in the village. As if it was not enough, the water-millers and peasants along with the tailor family would not allow Dombes to participate in their social occasions like marriages etc.  Their question of going to mosque did not arise at all. In Rajatarangini, Kalhana calls Dombes as lowest among the Hindu Varna or caste. Surprisingly after converting to Islam centuries ago, their position both socially and economically remained miserable and hence unchanged. None of them possessed Qura’n nor could they even read a single verse from it; it was not even a priority. Hangulgund had two very small mosques. One could accommodate four people and was subservient to the whims of Khaliq Khan, the tailor who rarely kept it open except for his chosen occasions. After his death, it disappeared so quickly that nobody even noticed it.  The second one, situated on the beautiful riverbank in the area populated by the Greata waeli, was little bigger and could take half a dozen people. It also fell into disuse for want of worshipers or nimazis.    The village temple was no different. Its roof was recycled from rusted tin scrap from a couple of village grocers. The local Hindus did constitute a committee to oversee temple affairs that occasionally collected a meagre fund, but it ultimately found its way into the pocket of the treasurer for his personal use. Thus the committee could not do much for the temple gods, but often engaged in internecine quarrels. I remember an occasion when Dr. Karan Singh the former Sadr-e-Riyasat was on a visit to Kokernag, Anantnag, his favourite tour resort. On his way back while passing through our village, a handful of Hindus stopped him begging for some grant for the temple maintenance. He readily agreed and sent some money which the Committee members spent aimlessly in constructing a Dharamshalla. Interestingly the building was never used for any religious occasion and soon after its erection was given to the government for the village primary school at a monthly rent of Rupees Eight. After a few years, when the building decayed for want of repair, no one knew how much rent was realized and where it was spent. Someone within the community had skimmed the rental for nearly three decades till 1990, when all of them had to leave the village.  The inter-communal relations in our village were always harmonious at popular level, as was the case generally in Kashmir. On all social and religious occasions the Pandits and Muslims shared pain and pleasure. Most of the times, when death visited the Pandit community, whether in summer or snow clad winter, the Muslims would immediately cut wood for the cremation; a service offered without expecting any reward or compensation. On religious occasions like Hawan Yega or marriage ceremonies, it was for the Muslim men to organize the basic necessities while their women sung the songs of love and blessings. Besides, all the religious festivals were celebrated with a mutual bond and greetings. I remember when the militancy in Kashmir was at peak, Sonawullah Ganai, affectionately called Suna, helped a Hindu family to move out from the village safely and never revealed it to anyone, even his family. However, there are occasions in Kashmir’s history which are characterized as tension ridden between the two communities. One interesting aspect that is often picked up by the Kashmiri Pandits as a strong proof of violence committed against them is the mass conversion during Sultan Sikandar’s reign (A.D. 1389-1413) which was both voluntary and forcible. Strangely, the force exercised during the conversion process was exercised by Suha Bhata, a Hindu who was loyal officer of the Sultan Sikandar. The consequence of force was the migration of a large number of Kashmiri Pandits to the neighbouring regions, some of whom returned when Sultan Zain-ul-Abidin (A.D.1420-1470) invited them back.  Even if the most subjective contemporary source; Jonaraja’s Rajatarangini, is believed, no one was persecuted or killed for refusing to accept Islam. The Bhakti saint Poetess Laleshwari, popularly known as Lal Ded, who was contemporary to the period does not mention any instance of force used to convert people. There was also no public protest against the force, if at all it was used. When we view the conversion in larger academic perspective one finds large gaps in Jonaraja’s argument of ‘use of force’. From 14th century until modern times there are no commentaries about it even though every aspect of Kashmir’s history is recorded by both Hindu and Muslim scholars as well as poets and writers. Despite this, the mass conversion does become a strong reference point on all occasions of private discussions among the Pandits. Unfortunately every Pandit adds his emphasis to the subject as if he was personally witness to Sultan Sikandar’s reign and poses as if he is the custodian of all the historical facts of that age. Sultan Sikandar is branded as butshikan (idol breaker), though it was king Harsha, a Shavite who indulged in breaking the idols and perpetrated worst crimes against the Pandit community. But Sikandar’s reign was retained by the popular memory and passed on from generation to generation because it marginalized the one religious community and founded the other. From fourteenth century whatever problems were faced by the Pandit community they were linked to the developments that facilitated the marginalization and conversion. However, this was only being talked among the literate urban Pandits; among the rural Pandits it was unheard of until recent times. In the post migration phase from 1990,  the Pandit community irrespective of rural-urban divide have been forced to explore their past. The unconsciously communal ones among them pick up Sultan Sikandar’s reign to illustrate the Muslim attitude as anarchic, not knowing that empirically it has no basis. In modern Kashmir, 1931 could be considered the year that led to significant Hindu-Muslim tensions. That year, the Muslim conference was founded; a consequence of impact of colonial modernization and urbanization of Muslims on the global scale. In Lahore a number of Anjumans or associations were founded to take up the socio-religious reformation of the Muslim society, which ultimately could not escape assuming political colour. One such association, Anjuman-i- Kashmir Lahore, which finally founded Muslim Conference in Kashmir, interpreted the Dogra rule over Kashmiris as Hindu rule exploiting Muslims. This was in utter disregard to the class structure in Kashmir polity, but when this interpretation reached Kashmir, it catalyzed the Muslim protests against the Dogra Raj. The Urban Pandits, who largely benefited from the Dogra Raj and wanted it to perpetuate, grew sceptical and suspicious. As the positions became defined and entrenched, some elements of the Muslim Conference indulged in loot and plunder against the Pandit and Punjabi shopkeepers mainly in Maharaj Gunj, in Srinagar and couple of towns reflecting arrogance of majoritarianism. Once the National Conference stemmed from the Muslim conference, it also began to voice public protests against the Jagirdari system, the beneficiaries of which were mostly Urban Pandits and few Sayyid families. The two families who owned large number of the jagirs in Kashmir, as per archival records, were those of Sham Sundar Lal Dhar and Sayyid Ahmad Shah. Political slogans were mixed up with rumours and conjecture that reinforced minority psyche among Hindus of Srinagar. However, the majority of people in rural Kashmir remained unconcerned.  The Hindu-Muslim relations stood the test of the epoch making year 1947, when tens of thousands perished in mutual clashes all over India. Kashmir remained uninfluenced by the rabid communalism which Mahatma Gandhi acknowledged as ‘a ray of hope’.  The Muslims acted as a shield for Pandits even when the tribal raiders from Pakistan were wreaking havoc across the valley. The testing time returned in 1966, when Moy-e-Muqaddas (Prophet Muhammad’s hair) disappeared from the Hazratbal mosque. Lots of rumours were manufactured to deepen the conflict between the two communities which did create some fissures, but as soon as Moy-e-Muqaddas was found everything returned to calm. A year later, when a Kashmiri Pandit girl, Parmeshwari married a Kashmiri Muslim, it generated a lot of resentment and protest among Pandits. The Parmeswari case had a very bad impact on Pandits, as they started gravitating towards communalism consciously. This was due to the fact that the urban elites of the Pandits began to invoke communal tendencies among rural Pandits by evolving small associations among them in almost every area. From mid-1970s, Hindu communalism became pronounced in urban areas and some rural towns like Anantnag, Shopian, Pulwama, Pattan etc. and the Pandits started identifying themselves with the Hindu reactionary ideology of mainland India. Around the same time the Jama’at-e-Islami began to spread its tentacles- first in urban areas and thence to the rural Kashmir. Rising Jama’at influence forced the local and traditional Islam into retreat. With the spread of education, the Jama’at influence started to root itself firmly in the rural heartland, challenging the centuries old common and eclectic practices. From mid 1970s, Kashmiri festivals like Urs or Vorus that used to be a great occasion of rejoicing for the rural Kashmiris cutting across the religious communities started to be circumvented or altogether disappearing as it was pronounced un-Islamic. Life started a dissent, as the Jama’at saw every aspect of Kashmiri life and legacy from the politicized version of Islam.  Some of the well educated among Muslims in teaching profession also began to preach the ideology of Jama’at perhaps thinking that they were doing service to the religion and community; but it ended up making the youth regimented. I remember when an acquaintance, Abdul Salam Dand of Nagam Breng, began to associate with the activities of Jama’at. A mediocre as a teacher, he facilitated the construction of a mosque in one corner of my peaceful village. The mosque never attracted much nimazis or worshippers, but it became a main reason for breaking the age-old bonds between the two communities. He did nothing for the poor villagers, but made it a point to get the electricity cut from the village when Pakistan lost a cricket match. A defining moment in the Hindu-Muslim relations was perhaps in February 1986 When the then Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi ordered the opening of Babri Masjid doors in Ayodhya.  This prompted a group of Muslim thugs patronized by the pro-India politicians and they attacked the Hindu temples in village Vanpoh, Lokbhawan, Bijbehara and at few other places in Anantnag district. Although, no one was killed but many Hindu families were harassed. I remember the grandson of Shree Ram Ji, of Boogam in Village Vanpoh who was physically handicapped was dragged out of his house when he could not run away; in many houses, household items were destroyed if not looted. The occasion was used by opposition political party workers to weaken the ruling party by indulging in the riots. Although, the situation returned to normalcy within a few days, it shook the entire Pandit community giving way to an unexplainable unease. Many resourceful Pandits from Srinagar and other urban areas started buying land and homes in Jammu and Delhi thinking that Kashmir was heading for some unknown trouble. The Hindu reactionary political parties from Indian mainland were quick to cash the situation by rushing the pack of a couple of truck loads of aid including some food items, blankets etc for the affected families but their local representatives misappropriated it. However, it did register the linkages of local community with main land Hindu reactionary forces. The wedge created by the communalist forces on the both sides led to a slow but certain drift. Consequently, both the communalisms gained currency and got legitimized. One needs to look at the greater picture of the Asian politics at the time, when Hindu and Muslim communalism received wider political patronage percolating the divisive ideas down to the popular level. This played significant role in distancing the relations between the two communities. The major crisis that shook the very basis of the Kashmiri social and political set-up was the mass militant resistance of early 1990s. It led to a severe crisis for the Pandits as many of them got killed and they had to leave the place en masse. I know my Muslim friends do acknowledge it with tears in their eyes but no one was in a position to stop it as it accompanied armed struggle with international linkages and ramifications. It is equally painful for me to record that Muslims also suffered immensely and continue to do so. But personally speaking, the pain of losing one’s homeland is severe than any other catastrophe. The popular Pandit perception is that Muslims suffered because they were supporting the armed struggle for independence while the Hindus had nothing to do with the movement and thus were caught unawares. Historically, most of the complaints of Pandits and their perceptions against Muslims were shaped by the change from Hinduism to Islam. In the post-14th Centaury scenario, Pandits felt marginalized due to their dwindling numbers, resulting in socio-psychological insecurity that continued ever since. They imposed minority psyche upon themselves which was reinforced whenever there was some tension, large or small. Under the circumstances, any inquiry into the history or social conditions that negated or challenged the popular belief and perceptions is not only prohibited but strongly resisted. This has also led to various problems, not only in understanding the trajectory of the community in its real spirit, but also its relationship with the Muslims.    I remember one occasion in August 1998 when I was in the United States to attend the world Anthropological Congress in Williams Burg, I was invited to address a gathering of expatriate Kashmiri Pandits associated with the Overseas Kashmiri Association in Washington for a lecture about the history of Kashmir.  My lecture was seen as a ‘deviation’ from popular lore and provoked many questions which I answered to the best of my knowledge. Soon after, nearly hundred emails were sent across by a few participants abusing me for not having criticized Islam and Kashmiri Muslims for all that was happening in Kashmir since 1990s. This according to them was the main reason for the Kashmir crisis and the migration of Pandits. The discussion degenerated and I had to face the ‘representatives’ of my ‘own’ community a couple of days later while delivering the prestigious Buddh Dillon Memorial lecture in California. These ‘representatives’ raised questions that were in no way related to the delivery of the memorial lecture, but I patiently answered them with all the facts at my disposal. Later, I even reasserted my position through India and West newspaper. However, the flow of emails continued, reflecting ignorance of the participants about their own history and culture. One of the participants, Mr. Vijay Sazawal [former President, Indo-American Kashmir Forum], who was not even present in my lecture in Washington characterized me a “communist of post naxalite brand” and attributed, what he perceived my radicalness, to my career as a researcher at the Jawaharlal Nehru University. It was only when Dr. Autar Mattoo, a Kashmiri Plant Scientist and couple of other academician friends voiced their feelings, the cheap conversation on the Internet stopped. I could understand that the ordinary people whom I characterize as popular level in the Kashmiri society are not communal whether they are Hindus or Muslims, but it is a very small section that unfortunately considers itself as the undeclared guardian of Kashmiri society both among Muslims and Hindus. As far as my understanding of Kashmiri society goes I have found that whenever Hindu-Muslim tensions emanated, they never had any theological background nor did they surface in Kashmir’s rural society which constitutes the majority. The last two decades (1988-2008) signify a very dark period in their relationship in the entire history of Kashmir. But even when the crises were at its peak in 1990, and the Pandits were left with nothing after migrating to Jammu and other Indian cities, their Muslim villagers had opened hearts and brought them their choicest delicacies - goat and lamb meat, famous Kashmiri spinch - haakh, Al- hachea and Nadur. My friends came from all parts of the Kashmir valley to my residence in Hyderabad to meet me and enquire about my welfare almost every year. These include Abdul Ahad Vakil, former speaker of Jammu and Kashmir Assembly, Professor Mohammad Ishaq Khan, Kashmiri Intellectual, Mohammad Yusuf Tarigami, politician, and a host of other friends. Though, there is no resolution to the crisis in Kashmir in sight, it has offered both the communities great mobility within and outside India. Since the Pandits migrated a little earlier, they seem to have benefited more. But they have starved culturally and miss their natural environment, the freedom they enjoyed and above all their relationship with their Muslim brethren. When they migrated to Jammu in the early 1990’s, all their myths about co-religionism were totally demystified. Their small children were not accommodated in the same schools, had to avail evening shifts and still were not allowed to share the space in school laboratories etc. even though the state was being governed by the same government. No sympathy of any sort was shown to them in the Jammu even though they were under the impression that they will be part of larger Hindu community. They quickly realized the relevance of their cultural roots which goes back to Kashmir’s antiquity. Professor Rattan Lal Hangloo is the Chair of Indian Studies at the University of West Indies at St. Augustine Campus, Trinidad and Tobago.is author of several books including ‘The State in Medieval Kashmir’. __________________________________________________________ Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 01:27:04 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 15:57:04 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue In-Reply-To: References: <98f331e00806301826g1af66e90pacaacf4724a45a50@mail.gmail.com> <"4 8 6A2C87.8080008"@gmail.com> <486B6D4B.2000802@gmail.com> <486D3AAC.1010807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <486E8090.90200@gmail.com> Radhika, Your post touches on important issues. I will address the most important one - indeed, the core issue - after getting the others out of the way. 1. It seems to me that if we are to be proud to be anything, it should be our common humanity, and not a particular religion, caste, language, ethnicity, etc. Because, this kind of "pride" leads to bloody conflict all the time. Religious pride and tolerance may coexist in you, but this is not universally true. It is certainly not true that every Hindu hates Muslims, but my experience tells me that some in fact do. And I would be interested in knowing how many riots have been initiated by Muslims rampaging after Friday prayers, and what percentage of all riots these represent. 2. Since you are aware that the "pseudo-seculars" also play identity politics like the BJP, though to a different degree and in a different style, I think you will agree that their best interest lies in appeasing the majority community first and foremost, and only after that, the minorities. In fact, this is what they have been seen to do in practice. If you remember, the Babri demolition took place when Congress was running the government with Narasimha Rao as Prime Minister. So, it is wrong to say that "pseudos" like Manmohan Singh appease only Muslims. That is, and has to be, their second priority. 3. I do not see the connection you seem to make between being a proud but tolerant Hindu, on the one hand, and your anger at the all-round misery and discontent, on the other. Isn't this anger the natural reaction of anyone who has any humanity left in her/him? Has the party that is essentially based on Hindu pride made the slightest effort, in the country when it ran the national government, or any of the states it has ruled, to bring about any fundamental change that would help eliminate the sufferings and discontent? 4. As for the RSS, I would not call it a socio-cultural organisation as long as it has its members in the BJP at all levels - from the grassroots to the party's top leadership, which govern whenever and wherever the BJP is in power. It is a full-fledged political organisation. 5. It goes without saying, as you have pointed out, that true democracy must address the needs of every citizen. Since the "pseudos" play identity politics, they are clearly unable to live up to this ideal. But can the BJP do it, when its ideology is constructed around the idea of citizenship based on religion? Is religion-based consolidation of Hindus - which you support - consistent with liberal democracy? I am going to argue that the very logic of the Parivar's ideology disempowers both Hindus and Muslims, and makes violence an inalienable part of itself. Since Hindus enjoy a numerical majority in India, the Parivar equates its Hindutva ideology with nationalism. But this is majoritarian thinking, not democratic thinking. Also, it is against our constitution. That little document views citizenship as something that is not related to any particular identity, such as religious and ethnic, and the political preferences of the citizen as being contingent upon various factors that affect her/his life. Now, if religious, ethnic, and other kinds of identity determine these preferences, there can be little scope for the citizen to vote outside the Hindu "bloc". This acceptance of an immutable bloc means giving up all political choice. This, in turn, means the citizen - even a Hindu - is stripped of her/his political agency, thus of all rights. In this scheme of things, (s)he has some privileges as a member of the majority community, but no rights as a citizen of India. On the other hand, Muslims and other minorities have neither rights, nor privileges in this scheme, unless the Hindu majority graciously throws a few tidbits their way. Now, if these minorities, out of sheer bloodymindedness, insist on having a few rights, what are the things they can do? Either get out of the country - which the uncles, aunts, nephews and nieces in the Parivar always suggest as the best way - or, if they refuse to do that out of their inborn perversity, try to carve their own country out of Indian territory. If they are willing to learn from the Parivar, this new country can run on the same principles as "mother" India, who continues to be the Parivar's possession, as any good wife should, after giving birth to this monster baby. But then, neither option can be acceptable to both communities at the same time. The minorities don't want to get out, unfortunately. Which is why the Parivar provides a little encouragement now and then. Not only in deed but also in word. One hears things like, ‘‘Jâo Pâkistân yâ kabristân’’ (‘‘Go to Pakistan or to the graveyard’’), or ‘‘Let Muslims understand that their real safety lies in the goodwill of the majority’’. In this, at least, no one can accuse the Parivar of leaving a gap between word and deed. It may be that they don't want to go to Pakistan, about which they have probably heard all kinds of bad things. So they may want their own country. But which family would let any monster child cut a little flesh out of its Bahus's body? Result: the get-out option will be resisted by the minorities, and the carve-out option by the Hindu majority. Thus, the only thing that can possibly mediate between Hindus and Muslims (and other minorities) in this scenario is violence. Tapas From yasir.media at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 03:58:29 2008 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?WINDOWS-1256?Q?yasir_~=ED=C7_=D3=D1?=) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 15:28:29 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: SAJA Forum Interview of Pakistani Barrister Aitzaz Ahsan In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0807021403r1468f596n70a3c9bd3886dc95@mail.gmail.com> References: <1cca3d5b-8ae3-4a7d-9891-1336800466fe@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> <5af37bb0807021403r1468f596n70a3c9bd3886dc95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0807041528x59b199b4l8d85c89d06a7edc5@mail.gmail.com> Is true then. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From taraprakash at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 07:29:12 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 21:59:12 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu Muslim relations in Kashmir by Dr. Rattan LalHangloo References: <394276.47776.qm@web27808.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003701c8de42$bccb5870$6400a8c0@taraprakash> Hi all. This is what I was thinking outloud after reading this article by Mr. Hangloo. There can't be an objective history of any place. History mostly belongs to the victor. it also belongs to a certain extent to those who can write well. Hangloo seems to be a good writer and perhaps a good historian. But isn't he betraying signs of being a Muslim apologist in this article? There is nothing wrong in that, but a historian should do it in more subtle a manner than Hangloo has done. There has been a long and sometimes ugly discussion on the list (most of which I did not read) about various versions of history of Kashmir. And I am sure Hangloo's version of history will also be challenged. Especially the following passage which is about bitter memories which are still fresh in the minds of some of the list members. "The major crisis that shook the very basis of the Kashmiri social and political set-up was the mass militant resistance of early 1990s. It led to a severe crisis for the Pundits as many of them got killed and they had to leave the place en masse." I thought At most of the places the Pundits were driven out by Muslims. Places of worship were used to warn them of ugly consequences if they did not leave. I wonder if his version of history just remains silent on this fact or denies it. Well, there can be another debate if a historian should be more truthful than sensitive or other way round. "I know my Muslim friends do acknowledge it with tears in their eyes but no one was in a position to stop it as it accompanied armed struggle with international linkages and ramifications. It is equally painful for me to record that Muslims also suffered immensely and continue to do so." With due sympathies to all the oppressed, where does this helplessness disappear when Salman Rushdie writes a book? Does the suffering vanish when Danish cartoons come to the light? Muslims continue to suffer, yet they can force the humongous state of India to revoke its order of land to Amarnath Shrine Board. Rather than showing their tears, couldn't they organize protests against the forced Pundit exodus if at all they cared at that time? I wonder for whom Mr. Hangloo was writing this. In the middle of an article that discusses a history, why would he start talking about protest against his speech in the US? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kashmir Affairs" To: Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 2:24 PM Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu Muslim relations in Kashmir by Dr. Rattan LalHangloo > Glimpses of Hindu-Muslim Relations in Kashmir > > > > Rattan Lal Hangloo > > (March 2008) > > [www.kashmiraffairs.org] > http://www.kashmiraffairs.org/hangloo_hindu_muslim_relations_in_kashmir.html > > > Transcending > from their animistic traditions, Kashmiris have changed and adopted > many religions over the centuries. Stemming from various tribes in > antiquity, they became Buddhists and contributed significantly in > spreading it across China and Central Asia. From 4th century > A.D., while Buddhism was on the wane, they evolved region specific > Shaivism, (Agamas) Vaishnavite, Tantric, Shakta traditions and Mother > Goddess cults. > > > > From tenth century A.D., Islamic influences began to permeate with > increasing presence of Turks, Persians and Arabs who entered as > soldiers, craftsmen, traders and Sufis. In 14th > century A.D., Kashmiris increasingly turned towards Islam at popular > level and became Muslims as majority community. Most of the converts > came from popular base, including the peasants, craftsmen and other > professions. Those who continued to adhere to the Shaivism began to be > termed as Pandits. Even though the conversion process from Hinduism to > Islam continued, 14th > century A.D. marks a watershed in Hindu-Muslim relations. The > examination of historical sources establishes the fact that barring > some stray instances of force, the conversion was voluntary. > Consequently, one does not come across a single piece of evidence > illustrating public protest against the conversions. > > > > In Kashmir, the first use of the term Hindukas was employed by the > Sanskrit chronicler Jonaraja in early 15th > century. Until then the Hindus were as Buddhists, Shavites, > Vaishnavites, Tantriks, Shaktas, and worshipers of varied mother > Goddess and other cults. On many occasions Buddhists and Shavites > clashed with each other very brutally. This was the case with other > cults which ultimately got incorporated into Hinduism. > > > > This needs to be emphasized that religion was perceived from a > different perspective in medieval times than at present. Thought, the > basic religious scriptures of both Muslims and Hindus were same, the > public perception and practice of religion varied. Until most recent > times the majority of Kashmiri people in both the communities, were > illiterate with no access to their scriptures. Therefore, their > understanding of religion was limited, occasionally tutored by their > priestly. These priests rarely shared a moment with the vast community > except on the occasions of death or a few other ceremonies. To see > large crowds of worshipers both Hindus and Muslims in their respective > spaces listening to sermons of their preachers and teachers is a recent > phenomenon. > > > > In > my village Hangalgund, in Anantnag, also known as Islamabad, there were > around fifty Hindu and thirty Muslim families. Majority of them had > neither the time nor the scriptural understanding of their respective > religions. The Muslims were professionally divided and this division > was reflected in their practice of religion as well. Pandits lived in > the centre of the village. On the southern border of the village were > the Muslims who ran water mills or Greata hence called Greata Waeli. > The northern border was inhabited by less than dozen of peasant > families with one of them also engaged in tailoring. The western side > was taken by more than a dozen houses of Dombes, who sold their labour > like freemen in Western Europe. They were treated as the lowest > category by their fellow Muslims and therefore faced wide > discrimination; they could never smoke the same hookah or share > the same space or a meal with the other two groups in the village. As > if it was not enough, the water-millers and peasants along with the > tailor family would not allow Dombes to participate in their social > occasions like marriages etc. Their question of going to mosque did > not arise at all. In Rajatarangini, Kalhana calls Dombes as > lowest among the Hindu Varna or caste. Surprisingly after converting to > Islam centuries ago, their position both socially and economically > remained miserable and hence unchanged. None of them possessed Qura’n nor > could they even read a single verse from it; it was not even a priority. > Hangulgund > had two very small mosques. One could accommodate four people and was > subservient to the whims of Khaliq Khan, the tailor who rarely kept it > open except for his chosen occasions. After his death, it disappeared > so quickly that nobody even noticed it. The second one, situated on > the beautiful riverbank in the area populated by the Greata waeli, was > little bigger and could take half a dozen people. It also fell into disuse > for want of worshipers or nimazis. > > > > The village temple was no different. Its roof was recycled from rusted > tin scrap from a couple of village grocers. The local Hindus did > constitute a committee to oversee temple affairs that occasionally > collected a meagre fund, but it ultimately found its way into the > pocket of the treasurer for his personal use. Thus the committee could > not do much for the temple gods, but often engaged in internecine > quarrels. I remember an occasion when Dr. Karan Singh the former > Sadr-e-Riyasat was > on a visit to Kokernag, Anantnag, his favourite tour resort. On his way > back while passing through our village, a handful of Hindus stopped him > begging for some grant for the temple maintenance. He readily agreed > and sent some money which the Committee members spent aimlessly in > constructing a Dharamshalla. Interestingly the building was > never used for any religious occasion and soon after its erection was > given to the government for the village primary school at a monthly > rent of Rupees Eight. After a few years, when the building decayed for > want of repair, no one knew how much rent was realized and where it was > spent. Someone within the community had skimmed the rental for nearly > three decades till 1990, when all of them had to leave the village. > > > > The inter-communal relations in our village were always harmonious at > popular level, as was the case generally in Kashmir. On all social and > religious occasions the Pandits and Muslims shared pain and pleasure. > Most of the times, when death visited the Pandit community, whether in > summer or snow clad winter, the Muslims would immediately cut wood for > the cremation; a service offered without expecting any reward or > compensation. On religious occasions like Hawan Yega or marriage > ceremonies, it was for the Muslim men to organize the basic necessities > while their women sung the songs of love and blessings. Besides, all > the religious festivals were celebrated with a mutual bond and > greetings. I remember when the militancy in Kashmir was at peak, > Sonawullah Ganai, affectionately called Suna, helped a Hindu family to > move out from the village safely and never revealed it to anyone, even > his family. However, there are occasions in Kashmir’s history which are > characterized as tension ridden between the two communities. > > > > One interesting aspect that is often picked up by the Kashmiri Pandits > as a strong proof of violence committed against them is the mass > conversion during Sultan Sikandar’s reign (A.D. 1389-1413) which was > both voluntary and forcible. Strangely, the force exercised during the > conversion process was exercised by Suha Bhata, a Hindu who was loyal > officer of the Sultan Sikandar. The consequence of force was the > migration of a large number of Kashmiri Pandits to the neighbouring > regions, some of whom returned when Sultan Zain-ul-Abidin > (A.D.1420-1470) invited them back. > > > > Even if the most subjective contemporary source; Jonaraja’s Rajatarangini, > is believed, no one was persecuted or killed for refusing to accept > Islam. The Bhakti saint Poetess Laleshwari, popularly known as Lal Ded, > who was contemporary to the period does not mention any instance of > force used to convert people. There was also no public protest against > the force, if at all it was used. When we view the conversion in larger > academic perspective one finds large gaps in Jonaraja’s argument of > ‘use of force’. From 14th century until modern times there > are no commentaries about it even though every aspect of Kashmir’s > history is recorded by both Hindu and Muslim scholars as well as poets > and writers. > > > > Despite > this, the mass conversion does become a strong reference point on all > occasions of private discussions among the Pandits. Unfortunately every > Pandit adds his emphasis to the subject as if he was personally witness > to Sultan Sikandar’s reign and poses as if he is the custodian of all > the historical facts of that age. Sultan Sikandar is branded as butshikan > (idol breaker), though it was king Harsha, a Shavite who indulged in > breaking the idols and perpetrated worst crimes against the Pandit > community. But Sikandar’s reign was retained by the popular memory and > passed on from generation to generation because it marginalized the one > religious community and founded the other. From fourteenth century > whatever problems were faced by the Pandit community they were linked > to the developments that facilitated the marginalization and > conversion. However, this was only being talked among the literate > urban Pandits; among the rural Pandits it was unheard of until recent > times. In the post migration phase from 1990, the Pandit community > irrespective of rural-urban divide have been forced to explore their > past. The unconsciously communal ones among them pick up Sultan > Sikandar’s reign to illustrate the Muslim attitude as anarchic, not > knowing that empirically it has no basis. > > > > In > modern Kashmir, 1931 could be considered the year that led to > significant Hindu-Muslim tensions. That year, the Muslim conference was > founded; a consequence of impact of colonial modernization and > urbanization of Muslims on the global scale. In Lahore a number of > Anjumans > or associations were founded to take up the socio-religious reformation > of the Muslim society, which ultimately could not escape assuming > political colour. One such association, Anjuman-i- Kashmir Lahore, > which finally founded Muslim Conference in Kashmir, interpreted the > Dogra rule over Kashmiris as Hindu rule exploiting Muslims. This was in > utter disregard to the class structure in Kashmir polity, but when this > interpretation reached Kashmir, it catalyzed the Muslim protests > against the Dogra Raj. The Urban Pandits, who largely benefited from > the Dogra Raj and wanted it to perpetuate, grew sceptical and > suspicious. As the positions became defined and entrenched, some > elements of the Muslim Conference indulged in loot and plunder against > the Pandit and Punjabi shopkeepers mainly in Maharaj Gunj, in Srinagar > and couple of towns reflecting arrogance of majoritarianism. Once the > National Conference stemmed from the Muslim conference, it also began > to voice public protests against the Jagirdari system, the > beneficiaries of which were mostly Urban Pandits and few Sayyid > families. The two families who owned large number of the jagirs > in Kashmir, as per archival records, were those of Sham Sundar Lal Dhar > and Sayyid Ahmad Shah. Political slogans were mixed up with rumours and > conjecture that reinforced minority psyche among Hindus of Srinagar. > However, the majority of people in rural Kashmir remained unconcerned. > > > > > The > Hindu-Muslim relations stood the test of the epoch making year 1947, > when tens of thousands perished in mutual clashes all over India. > Kashmir remained uninfluenced by the rabid communalism which Mahatma > Gandhi acknowledged as ‘a ray of hope’. The Muslims acted as a shield > for Pandits even when the tribal raiders from Pakistan were wreaking > havoc across the valley. The testing time returned in 1966, when > Moy-e-Muqaddas > (Prophet Muhammad’s hair) disappeared from the Hazratbal mosque. Lots > of rumours were manufactured to deepen the conflict between the two > communities which did create some fissures, but as soon as Moy-e-Muqaddas > was found everything returned to calm. > > > > A year later, when a Kashmiri Pandit girl, Parmeshwari married a > Kashmiri Muslim, it generated a lot of resentment and protest among > Pandits. The Parmeswari case had a very bad impact on Pandits, as they > started gravitating towards communalism consciously. This was due to > the fact that the urban elites of the Pandits began to invoke communal > tendencies among rural Pandits by evolving small associations among > them in almost every area. From mid-1970s, Hindu communalism became > pronounced in urban areas and some rural towns like Anantnag, Shopian, > Pulwama, Pattan etc. and the Pandits started identifying themselves > with the Hindu reactionary ideology of mainland India. > > > > Around the same time the Jama’at-e-Islami began to spread its > tentacles- first in urban areas and thence to the rural Kashmir. Rising > Jama’at influence forced the local and traditional Islam into retreat. > With the spread of education, the Jama’at influence started to root > itself firmly in the rural heartland, challenging the centuries old > common and eclectic practices. From mid 1970s, Kashmiri festivals like Urs > or Vorus that > used to be a great occasion of rejoicing for the rural Kashmiris > cutting across the religious communities started to be circumvented or > altogether disappearing as it was pronounced un-Islamic. Life started a > dissent, as the Jama’at saw every aspect of Kashmiri life and legacy > from the politicized version of Islam. Some of the well educated among > Muslims in teaching profession also began to preach the ideology of > Jama’at perhaps thinking that they were doing service to the religion > and community; but it ended up making the youth regimented. I remember > when an acquaintance, Abdul Salam Dand of Nagam Breng, began to > associate with the activities of Jama’at. A mediocre as a > teacher, he facilitated the construction of a mosque in one corner of > my peaceful village. The mosque never attracted much nimazis or > worshippers, but it became a main reason for breaking the age-old bonds > between the two communities. He did nothing for the poor villagers, but > made it a point to get the electricity cut from the village when > Pakistan lost a cricket match. > > > > A defining moment in the Hindu-Muslim relations was perhaps in February > 1986 When the then Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi ordered the opening of > Babri Masjid doors in Ayodhya. This prompted a group of Muslim thugs > patronized by the pro-India politicians and they attacked the Hindu > temples in village Vanpoh, Lokbhawan, Bijbehara and at few other places > in Anantnag district. Although, no one was killed but many Hindu > families were harassed. I remember the grandson of Shree Ram Ji, of > Boogam in Village Vanpoh who was physically handicapped was dragged out > of his house when he could not run away; in many houses, household > items were destroyed if not looted. The occasion was used by opposition > political party workers to weaken the ruling party by indulging in the > riots. Although, the situation returned to normalcy within a few days, > it shook the entire Pandit community giving way to an unexplainable > unease. Many resourceful Pandits from Srinagar and other urban areas > started buying land and homes in Jammu and Delhi thinking that Kashmir > was heading for some unknown trouble. The Hindu reactionary political > parties from Indian mainland were quick to cash the situation by > rushing the pack of a couple of truck loads of aid including some food > items, blankets etc for the affected families but their local > representatives misappropriated it. However, it did register the > linkages of local community with main land Hindu reactionary forces. > > The wedge created by the communalist forces on the both sides led to a > slow but certain drift. Consequently, both the communalisms gained > currency and got legitimized. One needs to look at the greater picture > of the Asian politics at the time, when Hindu and Muslim communalism > received wider political patronage percolating the divisive ideas down > to the popular level. This played significant role in distancing the > relations between the two communities. > > > > The major crisis that shook the very basis of the Kashmiri social and > political set-up was the mass militant resistance of early 1990s. It > led to a severe crisis for the Pandits as many of them got killed and > they had to leave the place en masse. > I know my Muslim friends do acknowledge it with tears in their eyes but > no one was in a position to stop it as it accompanied armed struggle > with international linkages and ramifications. It is equally painful > for me to record that Muslims also suffered immensely and continue to > do so. But personally speaking, the pain of losing one’s homeland is > severe than any other catastrophe. The popular Pandit perception is > that Muslims suffered because they were supporting the armed struggle > for independence while the Hindus had nothing to do with the movement > and thus were caught unawares. > > > > Historically, most of the complaints of Pandits and their perceptions > against Muslims were shaped by the change from Hinduism to Islam. In > the post-14th > Centaury scenario, Pandits felt marginalized due to their dwindling > numbers, resulting in socio-psychological insecurity that continued > ever since. They imposed minority psyche upon themselves which was > reinforced whenever there was some tension, large or small. Under the > circumstances, any inquiry into the history or social conditions that > negated or challenged the popular belief and perceptions is not only > prohibited but strongly resisted. This has also led to various > problems, not only in understanding the trajectory of the community in > its real spirit, but also its relationship with the Muslims. > > > > I remember one occasion in August 1998 when I was in the United States > to attend the world Anthropological Congress in Williams Burg, I was > invited to address a gathering of expatriate Kashmiri Pandits associated > with the Overseas Kashmiri Association in > Washington for a lecture about the history of Kashmir. My lecture was > seen as a ‘deviation’ from popular lore and provoked many questions > which I answered to the best of my knowledge. Soon after, nearly > hundred emails were sent across by a few participants abusing me for > not having criticized Islam and Kashmiri Muslims for all that was > happening in Kashmir since 1990s. This according to them was the main > reason for the Kashmir crisis and the migration of Pandits. The > discussion degenerated and I had to face the ‘representatives’ of my > ‘own’ community a couple of days later while delivering the prestigious > Buddh Dillon Memorial lecture in California. These ‘representatives’ > raised questions that were in no way related to the delivery of the > memorial lecture, but I patiently answered them with all the facts at > my disposal. Later, I even reasserted my position through India and West > newspaper. > However, the flow of emails continued, reflecting ignorance of the > participants about their own history and culture. One of the > participants, Mr. Vijay Sazawal [former President, Indo-American > Kashmir Forum], who was not even present in my lecture in Washington > characterized me a “communist of post naxalite brand” and attributed, > what he perceived my radicalness, to my career as a researcher > at the Jawaharlal Nehru University. It was only when Dr. Autar Mattoo, > a Kashmiri Plant Scientist and couple of other academician friends > voiced their feelings, the cheap conversation on the Internet stopped. > > > > I could understand that the ordinary people whom I characterize as > popular level in the Kashmiri society are not communal whether they are > Hindus or Muslims, but it is a very small section that unfortunately > considers itself as the undeclared guardian of Kashmiri society both > among Muslims and Hindus. As far as my understanding of Kashmiri > society goes I have found that whenever Hindu-Muslim tensions emanated, > they never had any theological background nor did they surface in > Kashmir’s rural society which constitutes the majority. > > > > The last two decades (1988-2008) signify a very dark period in their > relationship in the entire history of Kashmir. But even when the crises > were at its peak in 1990, and the Pandits were left with nothing after > migrating to Jammu and other Indian cities, their Muslim villagers had > opened hearts and brought them their choicest delicacies - goat and > lamb meat, famous Kashmiri spinch - haakh, Al- hachea and Nadur. > My friends came from all parts of the Kashmir valley to my residence in > Hyderabad to meet me and enquire about my welfare almost every year. > These include Abdul Ahad Vakil, former speaker of Jammu and Kashmir > Assembly, Professor Mohammad Ishaq Khan, Kashmiri Intellectual, > Mohammad Yusuf Tarigami, politician, and a host of other friends. > > > > Though, there is no resolution to the crisis in Kashmir in sight, it > has offered both the communities great mobility within and outside > India. Since the Pandits migrated a little earlier, they seem to have > benefited more. But they have starved culturally and miss their natural > environment, the freedom they enjoyed and above all their relationship > with their Muslim brethren. When they migrated to Jammu in the early > 1990’s, all their myths about co-religionism were totally demystified. > Their small children were not accommodated in the same schools, had to > avail evening shifts and still were not allowed to share the space in > school laboratories etc. even though the state was being governed by > the same government. No sympathy of any sort was shown to them in the > Jammu even though they were under the impression that they will be part > of larger Hindu community. They quickly realized the relevance of their > cultural roots which goes back to Kashmir’s antiquity. > > > > Professor Rattan Lal Hangloo is the Chair of Indian Studies at the > University of West Indies at St. Augustine Campus, Trinidad and > Tobago.is author of several books including ‘The State in Medieval > Kashmir’. > > > __________________________________________________________ > Not happy with your email address?. > Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available > now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Sat Jul 5 11:49:15 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 11:49:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat In-Reply-To: References: <9c06aab30807030822v65264b07p88ebd5cc5073e451@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807042319q7a21c959o48997e85552e7021@mail.gmail.com> Actually the ISI refused to finance my trip because Pakistan is not taking any interest in Kashmir. Separatists here are both surprised and relieved that PTV did not pay attention to the mass uprising. So my employers were forced to finance my trip. Would you like to look at the bills and accounts? You might also wants to ask the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board, in the same vein, to publish their accounts. As a Hindu I demand to know how they have been spending the money they collect from Muslim (Gujjar, Kashmiri) ponywalas and tentwalas, which they collect as compulsory taxes but show as voluntary donation. Oh and the 20 years old Vaishnu Devi Shrine Board has never published its accounts either... On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 12:57 PM, wrote: > Hi, Shivam, > > who is financing your stay in Srinagar, it looks like you are being held hostage with good food and your thoughts are that of a hostage talking good about his kidnappers.! By the way I hope you are guest of Gulam nabi or Mufti as both are known spin doctors who use the bakras like you.? > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:53 pm > Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat > To: sarai list > >> Tolerant Kashmiris >> 26 June, 2008 08:10:48 >> http://www.etalaat.net/english/viewpoint/editorial/1111.html >> >> Vested interests are all out to communalize the on-going agitation >> against transfer of forest land to the Amarnath Shrine Board. Time and >> again it has been made clear that the on-going agitation is not >> against the Yatra or the Yatries. The agitation is against >> politicization of the Yatra. Kashmiris want the government to entrust >> the job of conducting and facilitating Yatra to the local people who >> have been conducting it effectively since 1860. >> >> To understand the on-going agitation against land transfer in its >> right perspectives one has to look into the history of Kashmir.When >> important decisions concerning the future of Kashmir were taken >> Kashmiris were always ignored. In 1947 a decision was imposed on the >> reluctant people and since then the trend continues. In early 60s the >> government of India omitted Article 238 from Indian constitution and >> thus rendered article 370 infructious. The Article 370 which >> guarantees a special status to the state of Jammu Kashmir reads: "Not >> withstanding any thing nothing in Article 238 shall apply to the state >> of Jammu Kashmir." Article 370 is still there but article 238 which >> contained the heart and soul of 370 is not there in the constitution. >> Kashmiris to this day do not know about this fraud. >> >> Similarly the government of India abolished the permit system which >> required the non-state subjects to obtain a permit for entering the >> state. Again the people were not taken into confidence. In 1975 a >> popular movement was strangled. Again the people did not protest. In >> 1978 the draconian public safety act (PSA) was framed. People did not >> protest. In 1984 TADA was extended to the state. People remained >> silent. The Gulmarg issue shook them and the transfer of land did the >> miracle. Even this time the government had taken the people for >> granted. >> >> People are angry but they have not thrown caution to the winds. They >> have upheld the high traditions of tolerance and have not harmed any >> Yatri or a tourist. This is exactly what Islam teaches them. The >> Yatries are welcome and so are the tourists. Kashmiris are known for >> their hospitality and they will not disappoint the pilgrims and other >> guests. >> >> History is witness to the fact that Kashmiris have always protected >> their non-Muslim brethren. Hundreds of instances can be quoted to >> prove the point. However, the following incident shall suffice. A >> person who retired as the Chief Conservator of Forests lived in >> Shahr-e-Khaas during his college days. One day while on his way to the >> college he was intercepted by a crowd. Taken for a Bakra (A supporter >> of Mirwaiz Yusuf Shah) he was given sound thrashing. Somehow he ran >> away but only to be caught by another violent group. This time he was >> taken for a Sher (Supporter of Sheikh Abdullah) and beaten to pulp. >> Again he managed his escape. When caught for the third time, he >> shouted: "I am a Pandit." Nobody touched him this time. He was given >> safe passage. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> list >> List archive: > From mail at shivamvij.com Sat Jul 5 12:01:36 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:01:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Kashmiri Pandits should be the ones running Amarnath Board' In-Reply-To: <6353c690807031028g2fa0538csd1fa9bb0f4619a80@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030820i455ee117l53180ccd5cb5bb48@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807031028g2fa0538csd1fa9bb0f4619a80@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807042331l39d17620o421ebcb972075fc2@mail.gmail.com> Laughter is the best medicine. On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 10:58 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > LOL - ROFL > > Its just too funny. > > On 7/3/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> Dear all, >> >> This is my third day in Srinagar and following the Delhi media on the >> internet, it seems to me that not much has come out about the stand >> taken by Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs who reside in the Valley. They >> were supporting the demand to revoke the land transfer order! A >> demonstration by Sikh leaders here was stopped by the police, but >> demonstrations by Pandits in Jammu and Delhi, who always complain of >> being ignored by the media, have been duly highlighted. This imbalance >> is also reflected on the Reader-List. >> >> If anyone's voice is being marginalised in the media discourse, it is >> that of communal harmony from the Valley, that of Sikhs and Pandits... >> here is one report I found in that direction. Will post more. >> >> best >> shivam >> >> o o o >> >> Keep politicians out of shrine board: PDP leader >> >> http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=136527 >> >> Senior PDP leader, Dr Roop Lal Sharma has advised that Shri Amarnath >> Shrine Board affairs be handled by top journalists, lawyers, social >> activists from Kashmiri Pandit community. He stressed that politicians >> must be kept away from the Board.. >> >> SENIOR PEOPLE'S Democratic Party (PDP) leader Dr Roop Lal Sharma has >> expressed serious concern over the developments in Jammu and Kashmir >> pertaining to the controversy on land transfer to Shri Amarnath Shrine >> Board (SASB) and has demanded handing over of the Board to Kashmiri >> Pandits for management. >> >> In a statement issued in Jammu, Dr Sharma has said that the >> controversy has given a bad name to the state adding, it does not >> augur well for the secular character of the state and the government >> should act fast to resolve the issue before it snowballs into a major >> communal flare-up. >> >> Dr Sharma has said that Amarnath shrine belongs to state, particularly >> Kashmiri Pandits, who are the original inhabitants of the state and >> the local population of the area, who had been managing the affairs of >> the shrine for the past many decades. >> >> He said that only Kashmiri Pandits have the right to manage the >> affairs of the shrine besides, the local population of Maliks of >> Batkote so that the 'yatra' (pilgrimage) is not communalised by some >> vested interests in the administration. >> >> Dr Sharma has also warned the communal elements within the Hindu and >> the Muslim societies to refrain from giving the 'yatra' a communal >> colour and has condemned the attack on tourists in Kashmir besides, >> killing of a Kashmiri youth in the police firing in Kashmir. >> >> Elaborating further, Dr Sharma said that the affairs of the shrine >> should be entrusted to select Kashmiri Pandits comprising known >> journalists, lawyers and known social activists adding, the political >> class should be kept at an arms length from the board. >> >> Dr Sharma also said that even Kashmiri Pandit leaders, who are >> affiliated to various groups should be consulted but not given the >> reins because that will further divide the community, thus harming the >> interests >> >> Hailing the futuristic vision of the PDP patron, Mufti Mohd Sayeed for >> suggesting the handing over of the shrine to Kashmiri Pandits, Dr >> Sharma said that the government must act fast on his suggestion >> considering the fact that Sayeed has always proven right in his >> assessment of the situations. >> >> Dr Sharma has also called for an end to violence and asked Muslim >> brethren not to fall prey to some over zealous communalists who were >> vitiating the secular character of Kashmiris, thereby damaging the >> reputation the world over. >> >> He said such incidents would take the situation back to 1990s, thus >> causing immense damage to the economy of the Kashmiris. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Sat Jul 5 12:02:16 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:02:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Kashmiri Pandits should be the ones running Amarnath Board' In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70807031059x5436abd6le857c59215bc1491@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030820i455ee117l53180ccd5cb5bb48@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807031028g2fa0538csd1fa9bb0f4619a80@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807031059x5436abd6le857c59215bc1491@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807042332i3f053399x5ff250c9eba9a81@mail.gmail.com> Stop playing with my (journalistic) sentiments On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 11:29 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Shivam , > > grow up ..... whom are you trying to befool . If you do not know a thing > about Kashmir , please stop acting an expert. > > Are you even aware that it was PDP who did not allow passage of protection > of temples in Kashmir bill ..... in the assembly.. > > Shivam , you re suffering from a Stokholm syndrome. > > Grow up...... your talk of communal harmony in Kashmir can be best described > as "idiotic" > > Stop playing with our sentiments. > > > Pawan > > > > On 7/3/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> >> LOL - ROFL >> >> Its just too funny. >> >> On 7/3/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> > >> > Dear all, >> > >> > This is my third day in Srinagar and following the Delhi media on the >> > internet, it seems to me that not much has come out about the stand >> > taken by Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs who reside in the Valley. They >> > were supporting the demand to revoke the land transfer order! A >> > demonstration by Sikh leaders here was stopped by the police, but >> > demonstrations by Pandits in Jammu and Delhi, who always complain of >> > being ignored by the media, have been duly highlighted. This imbalance >> > is also reflected on the Reader-List. >> > >> > If anyone's voice is being marginalised in the media discourse, it is >> > that of communal harmony from the Valley, that of Sikhs and Pandits... >> > here is one report I found in that direction. Will post more. >> > >> > best >> > shivam >> > >> > o o o >> > >> > Keep politicians out of shrine board: PDP leader >> > >> > http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=136527 >> > >> > Senior PDP leader, Dr Roop Lal Sharma has advised that Shri Amarnath >> > Shrine Board affairs be handled by top journalists, lawyers, social >> > activists from Kashmiri Pandit community. He stressed that politicians >> > must be kept away from the Board.. >> > >> > SENIOR PEOPLE'S Democratic Party (PDP) leader Dr Roop Lal Sharma has >> > expressed serious concern over the developments in Jammu and Kashmir >> > pertaining to the controversy on land transfer to Shri Amarnath Shrine >> > Board (SASB) and has demanded handing over of the Board to Kashmiri >> > Pandits for management. >> > >> > In a statement issued in Jammu, Dr Sharma has said that the >> > controversy has given a bad name to the state adding, it does not >> > augur well for the secular character of the state and the government >> > should act fast to resolve the issue before it snowballs into a major >> > communal flare-up. >> > >> > Dr Sharma has said that Amarnath shrine belongs to state, particularly >> > Kashmiri Pandits, who are the original inhabitants of the state and >> > the local population of the area, who had been managing the affairs of >> > the shrine for the past many decades. >> > >> > He said that only Kashmiri Pandits have the right to manage the >> > affairs of the shrine besides, the local population of Maliks of >> > Batkote so that the 'yatra' (pilgrimage) is not communalised by some >> > vested interests in the administration. >> > >> > Dr Sharma has also warned the communal elements within the Hindu and >> > the Muslim societies to refrain from giving the 'yatra' a communal >> > colour and has condemned the attack on tourists in Kashmir besides, >> > killing of a Kashmiri youth in the police firing in Kashmir. >> > >> > Elaborating further, Dr Sharma said that the affairs of the shrine >> > should be entrusted to select Kashmiri Pandits comprising known >> > journalists, lawyers and known social activists adding, the political >> > class should be kept at an arms length from the board. >> > >> > Dr Sharma also said that even Kashmiri Pandit leaders, who are >> > affiliated to various groups should be consulted but not given the >> > reins because that will further divide the community, thus harming the >> > interests >> > >> > Hailing the futuristic vision of the PDP patron, Mufti Mohd Sayeed for >> > suggesting the handing over of the shrine to Kashmiri Pandits, Dr >> > Sharma said that the government must act fast on his suggestion >> > considering the fact that Sayeed has always proven right in his >> > assessment of the situations. >> > >> > Dr Sharma has also called for an end to violence and asked Muslim >> > brethren not to fall prey to some over zealous communalists who were >> > vitiating the secular character of Kashmiris, thereby damaging the >> > reputation the world over. >> > >> > He said such incidents would take the situation back to 1990s, thus >> > causing immense damage to the economy of the Kashmiris. >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 12:05:10 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:05:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Kashmiri Pandits should be the ones running Amarnath Board' In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807042331l39d17620o421ebcb972075fc2@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030820i455ee117l53180ccd5cb5bb48@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807031028g2fa0538csd1fa9bb0f4619a80@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807042331l39d17620o421ebcb972075fc2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807042335l7ad0b38ah1985c3e9ca09f4a@mail.gmail.com> You need it. On 7/5/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Laughter is the best medicine. > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 10:58 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > LOL - ROFL > > > > Its just too funny. > > > > On 7/3/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > >> > >> Dear all, > >> > >> This is my third day in Srinagar and following the Delhi media on the > >> internet, it seems to me that not much has come out about the stand > >> taken by Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs who reside in the Valley. They > >> were supporting the demand to revoke the land transfer order! A > >> demonstration by Sikh leaders here was stopped by the police, but > >> demonstrations by Pandits in Jammu and Delhi, who always complain of > >> being ignored by the media, have been duly highlighted. This imbalance > >> is also reflected on the Reader-List. > >> > >> If anyone's voice is being marginalised in the media discourse, it is > >> that of communal harmony from the Valley, that of Sikhs and Pandits... > >> here is one report I found in that direction. Will post more. > >> > >> best > >> shivam > >> > >> o o o > >> > >> Keep politicians out of shrine board: PDP leader > >> > >> http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=136527 > >> > >> Senior PDP leader, Dr Roop Lal Sharma has advised that Shri Amarnath > >> Shrine Board affairs be handled by top journalists, lawyers, social > >> activists from Kashmiri Pandit community. He stressed that politicians > >> must be kept away from the Board.. > >> > >> SENIOR PEOPLE'S Democratic Party (PDP) leader Dr Roop Lal Sharma has > >> expressed serious concern over the developments in Jammu and Kashmir > >> pertaining to the controversy on land transfer to Shri Amarnath Shrine > >> Board (SASB) and has demanded handing over of the Board to Kashmiri > >> Pandits for management. > >> > >> In a statement issued in Jammu, Dr Sharma has said that the > >> controversy has given a bad name to the state adding, it does not > >> augur well for the secular character of the state and the government > >> should act fast to resolve the issue before it snowballs into a major > >> communal flare-up. > >> > >> Dr Sharma has said that Amarnath shrine belongs to state, particularly > >> Kashmiri Pandits, who are the original inhabitants of the state and > >> the local population of the area, who had been managing the affairs of > >> the shrine for the past many decades. > >> > >> He said that only Kashmiri Pandits have the right to manage the > >> affairs of the shrine besides, the local population of Maliks of > >> Batkote so that the 'yatra' (pilgrimage) is not communalised by some > >> vested interests in the administration. > >> > >> Dr Sharma has also warned the communal elements within the Hindu and > >> the Muslim societies to refrain from giving the 'yatra' a communal > >> colour and has condemned the attack on tourists in Kashmir besides, > >> killing of a Kashmiri youth in the police firing in Kashmir. > >> > >> Elaborating further, Dr Sharma said that the affairs of the shrine > >> should be entrusted to select Kashmiri Pandits comprising known > >> journalists, lawyers and known social activists adding, the political > >> class should be kept at an arms length from the board. > >> > >> Dr Sharma also said that even Kashmiri Pandit leaders, who are > >> affiliated to various groups should be consulted but not given the > >> reins because that will further divide the community, thus harming the > >> interests > >> > >> Hailing the futuristic vision of the PDP patron, Mufti Mohd Sayeed for > >> suggesting the handing over of the shrine to Kashmiri Pandits, Dr > >> Sharma said that the government must act fast on his suggestion > >> considering the fact that Sayeed has always proven right in his > >> assessment of the situations. > >> > >> Dr Sharma has also called for an end to violence and asked Muslim > >> brethren not to fall prey to some over zealous communalists who were > >> vitiating the secular character of Kashmiris, thereby damaging the > >> reputation the world over. > >> > >> He said such incidents would take the situation back to 1990s, thus > >> causing immense damage to the economy of the Kashmiris. > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 12:06:05 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:06:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Kashmiri Pandits should be the ones running Amarnath Board' In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807042332i3f053399x5ff250c9eba9a81@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030820i455ee117l53180ccd5cb5bb48@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807031028g2fa0538csd1fa9bb0f4619a80@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807031059x5436abd6le857c59215bc1491@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807042332i3f053399x5ff250c9eba9a81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807042336i295de18fqa3c92c1333142952@mail.gmail.com> Have you joined Etalaat ? On 7/5/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Stop playing with my (journalistic) sentiments > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 11:29 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > Shivam , > > > > grow up ..... whom are you trying to befool . If you do not know a thing > > about Kashmir , please stop acting an expert. > > > > Are you even aware that it was PDP who did not allow passage of > protection > > of temples in Kashmir bill ..... in the assembly.. > > > > Shivam , you re suffering from a Stokholm syndrome. > > > > Grow up...... your talk of communal harmony in Kashmir can be best > described > > as "idiotic" > > > > Stop playing with our sentiments. > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > On 7/3/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> > >> LOL - ROFL > >> > >> Its just too funny. > >> > >> On 7/3/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > >> > > >> > Dear all, > >> > > >> > This is my third day in Srinagar and following the Delhi media on the > >> > internet, it seems to me that not much has come out about the stand > >> > taken by Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs who reside in the Valley. They > >> > were supporting the demand to revoke the land transfer order! A > >> > demonstration by Sikh leaders here was stopped by the police, but > >> > demonstrations by Pandits in Jammu and Delhi, who always complain of > >> > being ignored by the media, have been duly highlighted. This imbalance > >> > is also reflected on the Reader-List. > >> > > >> > If anyone's voice is being marginalised in the media discourse, it is > >> > that of communal harmony from the Valley, that of Sikhs and Pandits... > >> > here is one report I found in that direction. Will post more. > >> > > >> > best > >> > shivam > >> > > >> > o o o > >> > > >> > Keep politicians out of shrine board: PDP leader > >> > > >> > http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=136527 > >> > > >> > Senior PDP leader, Dr Roop Lal Sharma has advised that Shri Amarnath > >> > Shrine Board affairs be handled by top journalists, lawyers, social > >> > activists from Kashmiri Pandit community. He stressed that politicians > >> > must be kept away from the Board.. > >> > > >> > SENIOR PEOPLE'S Democratic Party (PDP) leader Dr Roop Lal Sharma has > >> > expressed serious concern over the developments in Jammu and Kashmir > >> > pertaining to the controversy on land transfer to Shri Amarnath Shrine > >> > Board (SASB) and has demanded handing over of the Board to Kashmiri > >> > Pandits for management. > >> > > >> > In a statement issued in Jammu, Dr Sharma has said that the > >> > controversy has given a bad name to the state adding, it does not > >> > augur well for the secular character of the state and the government > >> > should act fast to resolve the issue before it snowballs into a major > >> > communal flare-up. > >> > > >> > Dr Sharma has said that Amarnath shrine belongs to state, particularly > >> > Kashmiri Pandits, who are the original inhabitants of the state and > >> > the local population of the area, who had been managing the affairs of > >> > the shrine for the past many decades. > >> > > >> > He said that only Kashmiri Pandits have the right to manage the > >> > affairs of the shrine besides, the local population of Maliks of > >> > Batkote so that the 'yatra' (pilgrimage) is not communalised by some > >> > vested interests in the administration. > >> > > >> > Dr Sharma has also warned the communal elements within the Hindu and > >> > the Muslim societies to refrain from giving the 'yatra' a communal > >> > colour and has condemned the attack on tourists in Kashmir besides, > >> > killing of a Kashmiri youth in the police firing in Kashmir. > >> > > >> > Elaborating further, Dr Sharma said that the affairs of the shrine > >> > should be entrusted to select Kashmiri Pandits comprising known > >> > journalists, lawyers and known social activists adding, the political > >> > class should be kept at an arms length from the board. > >> > > >> > Dr Sharma also said that even Kashmiri Pandit leaders, who are > >> > affiliated to various groups should be consulted but not given the > >> > reins because that will further divide the community, thus harming the > >> > interests > >> > > >> > Hailing the futuristic vision of the PDP patron, Mufti Mohd Sayeed for > >> > suggesting the handing over of the shrine to Kashmiri Pandits, Dr > >> > Sharma said that the government must act fast on his suggestion > >> > considering the fact that Sayeed has always proven right in his > >> > assessment of the situations. > >> > > >> > Dr Sharma has also called for an end to violence and asked Muslim > >> > brethren not to fall prey to some over zealous communalists who were > >> > vitiating the secular character of Kashmiris, thereby damaging the > >> > reputation the world over. > >> > > >> > He said such incidents would take the situation back to 1990s, thus > >> > causing immense damage to the economy of the Kashmiris. > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From mail at shivamvij.com Sat Jul 5 12:06:38 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:06:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Kashmiri Pandits should be the ones running Amarnath Board' In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70807042335l7ad0b38ah1985c3e9ca09f4a@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030820i455ee117l53180ccd5cb5bb48@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807031028g2fa0538csd1fa9bb0f4619a80@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807042331l39d17620o421ebcb972075fc2@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807042335l7ad0b38ah1985c3e9ca09f4a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807042336t539ea4efv8c5edb0df7d6eb20@mail.gmail.com> But Aditya is the one laughing! On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > You need it. > > On 7/5/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> Laughter is the best medicine. >> >> On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 10:58 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> wrote: >> > LOL - ROFL >> > >> > Its just too funny. >> > >> > On 7/3/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear all, >> >> >> >> This is my third day in Srinagar and following the Delhi media on the >> >> internet, it seems to me that not much has come out about the stand >> >> taken by Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs who reside in the Valley. They >> >> were supporting the demand to revoke the land transfer order! A >> >> demonstration by Sikh leaders here was stopped by the police, but >> >> demonstrations by Pandits in Jammu and Delhi, who always complain of >> >> being ignored by the media, have been duly highlighted. This imbalance >> >> is also reflected on the Reader-List. >> >> >> >> If anyone's voice is being marginalised in the media discourse, it is >> >> that of communal harmony from the Valley, that of Sikhs and Pandits... >> >> here is one report I found in that direction. Will post more. >> >> >> >> best >> >> shivam >> >> >> >> o o o >> >> >> >> Keep politicians out of shrine board: PDP leader >> >> >> >> http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=136527 >> >> >> >> Senior PDP leader, Dr Roop Lal Sharma has advised that Shri Amarnath >> >> Shrine Board affairs be handled by top journalists, lawyers, social >> >> activists from Kashmiri Pandit community. He stressed that politicians >> >> must be kept away from the Board.. >> >> >> >> SENIOR PEOPLE'S Democratic Party (PDP) leader Dr Roop Lal Sharma has >> >> expressed serious concern over the developments in Jammu and Kashmir >> >> pertaining to the controversy on land transfer to Shri Amarnath Shrine >> >> Board (SASB) and has demanded handing over of the Board to Kashmiri >> >> Pandits for management. >> >> >> >> In a statement issued in Jammu, Dr Sharma has said that the >> >> controversy has given a bad name to the state adding, it does not >> >> augur well for the secular character of the state and the government >> >> should act fast to resolve the issue before it snowballs into a major >> >> communal flare-up. >> >> >> >> Dr Sharma has said that Amarnath shrine belongs to state, particularly >> >> Kashmiri Pandits, who are the original inhabitants of the state and >> >> the local population of the area, who had been managing the affairs of >> >> the shrine for the past many decades. >> >> >> >> He said that only Kashmiri Pandits have the right to manage the >> >> affairs of the shrine besides, the local population of Maliks of >> >> Batkote so that the 'yatra' (pilgrimage) is not communalised by some >> >> vested interests in the administration. >> >> >> >> Dr Sharma has also warned the communal elements within the Hindu and >> >> the Muslim societies to refrain from giving the 'yatra' a communal >> >> colour and has condemned the attack on tourists in Kashmir besides, >> >> killing of a Kashmiri youth in the police firing in Kashmir. >> >> >> >> Elaborating further, Dr Sharma said that the affairs of the shrine >> >> should be entrusted to select Kashmiri Pandits comprising known >> >> journalists, lawyers and known social activists adding, the political >> >> class should be kept at an arms length from the board. >> >> >> >> Dr Sharma also said that even Kashmiri Pandit leaders, who are >> >> affiliated to various groups should be consulted but not given the >> >> reins because that will further divide the community, thus harming the >> >> interests >> >> >> >> Hailing the futuristic vision of the PDP patron, Mufti Mohd Sayeed for >> >> suggesting the handing over of the shrine to Kashmiri Pandits, Dr >> >> Sharma said that the government must act fast on his suggestion >> >> considering the fact that Sayeed has always proven right in his >> >> assessment of the situations. >> >> >> >> Dr Sharma has also called for an end to violence and asked Muslim >> >> brethren not to fall prey to some over zealous communalists who were >> >> vitiating the secular character of Kashmiris, thereby damaging the >> >> reputation the world over. >> >> >> >> He said such incidents would take the situation back to 1990s, thus >> >> causing immense damage to the economy of the Kashmiris. >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From mail at shivamvij.com Sat Jul 5 12:06:24 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:06:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Kashmiri Pandits should be the ones running Amarnath Board' In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70807042336i295de18fqa3c92c1333142952@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030820i455ee117l53180ccd5cb5bb48@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807031028g2fa0538csd1fa9bb0f4619a80@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807031059x5436abd6le857c59215bc1491@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807042332i3f053399x5ff250c9eba9a81@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807042336i295de18fqa3c92c1333142952@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807042336g12b0672ds27d01e5e96355166@mail.gmail.com> Not yet On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Have you joined Etalaat ? > > On 7/5/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> Stop playing with my (journalistic) sentiments >> >> On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 11:29 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > Shivam , >> > >> > grow up ..... whom are you trying to befool . If you do not know a thing >> > about Kashmir , please stop acting an expert. >> > >> > Are you even aware that it was PDP who did not allow passage of >> > protection >> > of temples in Kashmir bill ..... in the assembly.. >> > >> > Shivam , you re suffering from a Stokholm syndrome. >> > >> > Grow up...... your talk of communal harmony in Kashmir can be best >> > described >> > as "idiotic" >> > >> > Stop playing with our sentiments. >> > >> > >> > Pawan >> > >> > >> > >> > On 7/3/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> >> >> >> LOL - ROFL >> >> >> >> Its just too funny. >> >> >> >> On 7/3/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Dear all, >> >> > >> >> > This is my third day in Srinagar and following the Delhi media on the >> >> > internet, it seems to me that not much has come out about the stand >> >> > taken by Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs who reside in the Valley. They >> >> > were supporting the demand to revoke the land transfer order! A >> >> > demonstration by Sikh leaders here was stopped by the police, but >> >> > demonstrations by Pandits in Jammu and Delhi, who always complain of >> >> > being ignored by the media, have been duly highlighted. This >> >> > imbalance >> >> > is also reflected on the Reader-List. >> >> > >> >> > If anyone's voice is being marginalised in the media discourse, it is >> >> > that of communal harmony from the Valley, that of Sikhs and >> >> > Pandits... >> >> > here is one report I found in that direction. Will post more. >> >> > >> >> > best >> >> > shivam >> >> > >> >> > o o o >> >> > >> >> > Keep politicians out of shrine board: PDP leader >> >> > >> >> > http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=136527 >> >> > >> >> > Senior PDP leader, Dr Roop Lal Sharma has advised that Shri Amarnath >> >> > Shrine Board affairs be handled by top journalists, lawyers, social >> >> > activists from Kashmiri Pandit community. He stressed that >> >> > politicians >> >> > must be kept away from the Board.. >> >> > >> >> > SENIOR PEOPLE'S Democratic Party (PDP) leader Dr Roop Lal Sharma has >> >> > expressed serious concern over the developments in Jammu and Kashmir >> >> > pertaining to the controversy on land transfer to Shri Amarnath >> >> > Shrine >> >> > Board (SASB) and has demanded handing over of the Board to Kashmiri >> >> > Pandits for management. >> >> > >> >> > In a statement issued in Jammu, Dr Sharma has said that the >> >> > controversy has given a bad name to the state adding, it does not >> >> > augur well for the secular character of the state and the government >> >> > should act fast to resolve the issue before it snowballs into a major >> >> > communal flare-up. >> >> > >> >> > Dr Sharma has said that Amarnath shrine belongs to state, >> >> > particularly >> >> > Kashmiri Pandits, who are the original inhabitants of the state and >> >> > the local population of the area, who had been managing the affairs >> >> > of >> >> > the shrine for the past many decades. >> >> > >> >> > He said that only Kashmiri Pandits have the right to manage the >> >> > affairs of the shrine besides, the local population of Maliks of >> >> > Batkote so that the 'yatra' (pilgrimage) is not communalised by some >> >> > vested interests in the administration. >> >> > >> >> > Dr Sharma has also warned the communal elements within the Hindu and >> >> > the Muslim societies to refrain from giving the 'yatra' a communal >> >> > colour and has condemned the attack on tourists in Kashmir besides, >> >> > killing of a Kashmiri youth in the police firing in Kashmir. >> >> > >> >> > Elaborating further, Dr Sharma said that the affairs of the shrine >> >> > should be entrusted to select Kashmiri Pandits comprising known >> >> > journalists, lawyers and known social activists adding, the political >> >> > class should be kept at an arms length from the board. >> >> > >> >> > Dr Sharma also said that even Kashmiri Pandit leaders, who are >> >> > affiliated to various groups should be consulted but not given the >> >> > reins because that will further divide the community, thus harming >> >> > the >> >> > interests >> >> > >> >> > Hailing the futuristic vision of the PDP patron, Mufti Mohd Sayeed >> >> > for >> >> > suggesting the handing over of the shrine to Kashmiri Pandits, Dr >> >> > Sharma said that the government must act fast on his suggestion >> >> > considering the fact that Sayeed has always proven right in his >> >> > assessment of the situations. >> >> > >> >> > Dr Sharma has also called for an end to violence and asked Muslim >> >> > brethren not to fall prey to some over zealous communalists who were >> >> > vitiating the secular character of Kashmiris, thereby damaging the >> >> > reputation the world over. >> >> > >> >> > He said such incidents would take the situation back to 1990s, thus >> >> > causing immense damage to the economy of the Kashmiris. >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 12:07:59 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:07:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807042319q7a21c959o48997e85552e7021@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030822v65264b07p88ebd5cc5073e451@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807042319q7a21c959o48997e85552e7021@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807042337o38b04d5bkc07fe6c96999a7f8@mail.gmail.com> If only you know the facts , Mr Jor Na Less Stick..... On 7/5/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Actually the ISI refused to finance my trip because Pakistan is not > taking any interest in Kashmir. Separatists here are both surprised > and relieved that PTV did not pay attention to the mass uprising. So > my employers were forced to finance my trip. Would you like to look at > the bills and accounts? You might also wants to ask the Shri Amarnath > Shrine Board, in the same vein, to publish their accounts. As a Hindu > I demand to know how they have been spending the money they collect > from Muslim (Gujjar, Kashmiri) ponywalas and tentwalas, which they > collect as compulsory taxes but show as voluntary donation. Oh and the > 20 years old Vaishnu Devi Shrine Board has never published its > accounts either... > > On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 12:57 PM, wrote: > > Hi, Shivam, > > > > who is financing your stay in Srinagar, it looks like you are being > held hostage with good food and your thoughts are that of a hostage talking > good about his kidnappers.! By the way I hope you are guest of Gulam nabi or > Mufti as both are known spin doctors who use the bakras like you.? > > > > Regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:53 pm > > Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat > > To: sarai list > > > >> Tolerant Kashmiris > >> 26 June, 2008 08:10:48 > >> http://www.etalaat.net/english/viewpoint/editorial/1111.html > >> > >> Vested interests are all out to communalize the on-going agitation > >> against transfer of forest land to the Amarnath Shrine Board. Time and > >> again it has been made clear that the on-going agitation is not > >> against the Yatra or the Yatries. The agitation is against > >> politicization of the Yatra. Kashmiris want the government to entrust > >> the job of conducting and facilitating Yatra to the local people who > >> have been conducting it effectively since 1860. > >> > >> To understand the on-going agitation against land transfer in its > >> right perspectives one has to look into the history of Kashmir.When > >> important decisions concerning the future of Kashmir were taken > >> Kashmiris were always ignored. In 1947 a decision was imposed on the > >> reluctant people and since then the trend continues. In early 60s the > >> government of India omitted Article 238 from Indian constitution and > >> thus rendered article 370 infructious. The Article 370 which > >> guarantees a special status to the state of Jammu Kashmir reads: "Not > >> withstanding any thing nothing in Article 238 shall apply to the state > >> of Jammu Kashmir." Article 370 is still there but article 238 which > >> contained the heart and soul of 370 is not there in the constitution. > >> Kashmiris to this day do not know about this fraud. > >> > >> Similarly the government of India abolished the permit system which > >> required the non-state subjects to obtain a permit for entering the > >> state. Again the people were not taken into confidence. In 1975 a > >> popular movement was strangled. Again the people did not protest. In > >> 1978 the draconian public safety act (PSA) was framed. People did not > >> protest. In 1984 TADA was extended to the state. People remained > >> silent. The Gulmarg issue shook them and the transfer of land did the > >> miracle. Even this time the government had taken the people for > >> granted. > >> > >> People are angry but they have not thrown caution to the winds. They > >> have upheld the high traditions of tolerance and have not harmed any > >> Yatri or a tourist. This is exactly what Islam teaches them. The > >> Yatries are welcome and so are the tourists. Kashmiris are known for > >> their hospitality and they will not disappoint the pilgrims and other > >> guests. > >> > >> History is witness to the fact that Kashmiris have always protected > >> their non-Muslim brethren. Hundreds of instances can be quoted to > >> prove the point. However, the following incident shall suffice. A > >> person who retired as the Chief Conservator of Forests lived in > >> Shahr-e-Khaas during his college days. One day while on his way to the > >> college he was intercepted by a crowd. Taken for a Bakra (A supporter > >> of Mirwaiz Yusuf Shah) he was given sound thrashing. Somehow he ran > >> away but only to be caught by another violent group. This time he was > >> taken for a Sher (Supporter of Sheikh Abdullah) and beaten to pulp. > >> Again he managed his escape. When caught for the third time, he > >> shouted: "I am a Pandit." Nobody touched him this time. He was given > >> safe passage. > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> list > >> List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 12:09:27 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:09:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Kashmiri Pandits should be the ones running Amarnath Board' In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807042336t539ea4efv8c5edb0df7d6eb20@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030820i455ee117l53180ccd5cb5bb48@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807031028g2fa0538csd1fa9bb0f4619a80@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807042331l39d17620o421ebcb972075fc2@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807042335l7ad0b38ah1985c3e9ca09f4a@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807042336t539ea4efv8c5edb0df7d6eb20@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807042339i319ff2d1y77644f8b7445c147@mail.gmail.com> He also needs some medicine ...after all infectious mails have started to some from Kashmir. On 7/5/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > But Aditya is the one laughing! > > On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > You need it. > > > > On 7/5/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > >> > >> Laughter is the best medicine. > >> > >> On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 10:58 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > >> wrote: > >> > LOL - ROFL > >> > > >> > Its just too funny. > >> > > >> > On 7/3/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Dear all, > >> >> > >> >> This is my third day in Srinagar and following the Delhi media on the > >> >> internet, it seems to me that not much has come out about the stand > >> >> taken by Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs who reside in the Valley. They > >> >> were supporting the demand to revoke the land transfer order! A > >> >> demonstration by Sikh leaders here was stopped by the police, but > >> >> demonstrations by Pandits in Jammu and Delhi, who always complain of > >> >> being ignored by the media, have been duly highlighted. This > imbalance > >> >> is also reflected on the Reader-List. > >> >> > >> >> If anyone's voice is being marginalised in the media discourse, it is > >> >> that of communal harmony from the Valley, that of Sikhs and > Pandits... > >> >> here is one report I found in that direction. Will post more. > >> >> > >> >> best > >> >> shivam > >> >> > >> >> o o o > >> >> > >> >> Keep politicians out of shrine board: PDP leader > >> >> > >> >> http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=136527 > >> >> > >> >> Senior PDP leader, Dr Roop Lal Sharma has advised that Shri Amarnath > >> >> Shrine Board affairs be handled by top journalists, lawyers, social > >> >> activists from Kashmiri Pandit community. He stressed that > politicians > >> >> must be kept away from the Board.. > >> >> > >> >> SENIOR PEOPLE'S Democratic Party (PDP) leader Dr Roop Lal Sharma has > >> >> expressed serious concern over the developments in Jammu and Kashmir > >> >> pertaining to the controversy on land transfer to Shri Amarnath > Shrine > >> >> Board (SASB) and has demanded handing over of the Board to Kashmiri > >> >> Pandits for management. > >> >> > >> >> In a statement issued in Jammu, Dr Sharma has said that the > >> >> controversy has given a bad name to the state adding, it does not > >> >> augur well for the secular character of the state and the government > >> >> should act fast to resolve the issue before it snowballs into a major > >> >> communal flare-up. > >> >> > >> >> Dr Sharma has said that Amarnath shrine belongs to state, > particularly > >> >> Kashmiri Pandits, who are the original inhabitants of the state and > >> >> the local population of the area, who had been managing the affairs > of > >> >> the shrine for the past many decades. > >> >> > >> >> He said that only Kashmiri Pandits have the right to manage the > >> >> affairs of the shrine besides, the local population of Maliks of > >> >> Batkote so that the 'yatra' (pilgrimage) is not communalised by some > >> >> vested interests in the administration. > >> >> > >> >> Dr Sharma has also warned the communal elements within the Hindu and > >> >> the Muslim societies to refrain from giving the 'yatra' a communal > >> >> colour and has condemned the attack on tourists in Kashmir besides, > >> >> killing of a Kashmiri youth in the police firing in Kashmir. > >> >> > >> >> Elaborating further, Dr Sharma said that the affairs of the shrine > >> >> should be entrusted to select Kashmiri Pandits comprising known > >> >> journalists, lawyers and known social activists adding, the political > >> >> class should be kept at an arms length from the board. > >> >> > >> >> Dr Sharma also said that even Kashmiri Pandit leaders, who are > >> >> affiliated to various groups should be consulted but not given the > >> >> reins because that will further divide the community, thus harming > the > >> >> interests > >> >> > >> >> Hailing the futuristic vision of the PDP patron, Mufti Mohd Sayeed > for > >> >> suggesting the handing over of the shrine to Kashmiri Pandits, Dr > >> >> Sharma said that the government must act fast on his suggestion > >> >> considering the fact that Sayeed has always proven right in his > >> >> assessment of the situations. > >> >> > >> >> Dr Sharma has also called for an end to violence and asked Muslim > >> >> brethren not to fall prey to some over zealous communalists who were > >> >> vitiating the secular character of Kashmiris, thereby damaging the > >> >> reputation the world over. > >> >> > >> >> He said such incidents would take the situation back to 1990s, thus > >> >> causing immense damage to the economy of the Kashmiris. > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From mail at shivamvij.com Sat Jul 5 12:10:28 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:10:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70807042337o38b04d5bkc07fe6c96999a7f8@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030822v65264b07p88ebd5cc5073e451@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807042319q7a21c959o48997e85552e7021@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807042337o38b04d5bkc07fe6c96999a7f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807042340g66fa86aep87c5b19a955e7b80@mail.gmail.com> You mean to say they HAVE published accounts? You mean to say they are NOT collecting in the name of donations? I mean, I went to Baltal yesterday and saw the 'donation' receipts and all, spoke to a lot of people... but you seem to have a monopoly on facts On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > If only you know the facts , Mr Jor Na Less Stick..... > > On 7/5/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> Actually the ISI refused to finance my trip because Pakistan is not >> taking any interest in Kashmir. Separatists here are both surprised >> and relieved that PTV did not pay attention to the mass uprising. So >> my employers were forced to finance my trip. Would you like to look at >> the bills and accounts? You might also wants to ask the Shri Amarnath >> Shrine Board, in the same vein, to publish their accounts. As a Hindu >> I demand to know how they have been spending the money they collect >> from Muslim (Gujjar, Kashmiri) ponywalas and tentwalas, which they >> collect as compulsory taxes but show as voluntary donation. Oh and the >> 20 years old Vaishnu Devi Shrine Board has never published its >> accounts either... >> >> On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 12:57 PM, wrote: >> > Hi, Shivam, >> > >> > who is financing your stay in Srinagar, it looks like you are being >> > held hostage with good food and your thoughts are that of a hostage talking >> > good about his kidnappers.! By the way I hope you are guest of Gulam nabi or >> > Mufti as both are known spin doctors who use the bakras like you.? >> > >> > Regards. >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् >> > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:53 pm >> > Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat >> > To: sarai list >> > >> >> Tolerant Kashmiris >> >> 26 June, 2008 08:10:48 >> >> http://www.etalaat.net/english/viewpoint/editorial/1111.html >> >> >> >> Vested interests are all out to communalize the on-going agitation >> >> against transfer of forest land to the Amarnath Shrine Board. Time and >> >> again it has been made clear that the on-going agitation is not >> >> against the Yatra or the Yatries. The agitation is against >> >> politicization of the Yatra. Kashmiris want the government to entrust >> >> the job of conducting and facilitating Yatra to the local people who >> >> have been conducting it effectively since 1860. >> >> >> >> To understand the on-going agitation against land transfer in its >> >> right perspectives one has to look into the history of Kashmir.When >> >> important decisions concerning the future of Kashmir were taken >> >> Kashmiris were always ignored. In 1947 a decision was imposed on the >> >> reluctant people and since then the trend continues. In early 60s the >> >> government of India omitted Article 238 from Indian constitution and >> >> thus rendered article 370 infructious. The Article 370 which >> >> guarantees a special status to the state of Jammu Kashmir reads: "Not >> >> withstanding any thing nothing in Article 238 shall apply to the state >> >> of Jammu Kashmir." Article 370 is still there but article 238 which >> >> contained the heart and soul of 370 is not there in the constitution. >> >> Kashmiris to this day do not know about this fraud. >> >> >> >> Similarly the government of India abolished the permit system which >> >> required the non-state subjects to obtain a permit for entering the >> >> state. Again the people were not taken into confidence. In 1975 a >> >> popular movement was strangled. Again the people did not protest. In >> >> 1978 the draconian public safety act (PSA) was framed. People did not >> >> protest. In 1984 TADA was extended to the state. People remained >> >> silent. The Gulmarg issue shook them and the transfer of land did the >> >> miracle. Even this time the government had taken the people for >> >> granted. >> >> >> >> People are angry but they have not thrown caution to the winds. They >> >> have upheld the high traditions of tolerance and have not harmed any >> >> Yatri or a tourist. This is exactly what Islam teaches them. The >> >> Yatries are welcome and so are the tourists. Kashmiris are known for >> >> their hospitality and they will not disappoint the pilgrims and other >> >> guests. >> >> >> >> History is witness to the fact that Kashmiris have always protected >> >> their non-Muslim brethren. Hundreds of instances can be quoted to >> >> prove the point. However, the following incident shall suffice. A >> >> person who retired as the Chief Conservator of Forests lived in >> >> Shahr-e-Khaas during his college days. One day while on his way to the >> >> college he was intercepted by a crowd. Taken for a Bakra (A supporter >> >> of Mirwaiz Yusuf Shah) he was given sound thrashing. Somehow he ran >> >> away but only to be caught by another violent group. This time he was >> >> taken for a Sher (Supporter of Sheikh Abdullah) and beaten to pulp. >> >> Again he managed his escape. When caught for the third time, he >> >> shouted: "I am a Pandit." Nobody touched him this time. He was given >> >> safe passage. >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> >> list >> >> List archive: >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From mail at shivamvij.com Sat Jul 5 12:11:19 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:11:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Kashmiri Pandits should be the ones running Amarnath Board' In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70807042339i319ff2d1y77644f8b7445c147@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030820i455ee117l53180ccd5cb5bb48@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807031028g2fa0538csd1fa9bb0f4619a80@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807042331l39d17620o421ebcb972075fc2@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807042335l7ad0b38ah1985c3e9ca09f4a@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807042336t539ea4efv8c5edb0df7d6eb20@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807042339i319ff2d1y77644f8b7445c147@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807042341g5f89718lfb98ce1e54f64863@mail.gmail.com> Yes, so far they were coming only from Delhi. Loha lohay ko kat-ta hai, no? On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > He also needs some medicine ...after all infectious mails have started to > some from Kashmir. > > On 7/5/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> But Aditya is the one laughing! >> >> On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > You need it. >> > >> > On 7/5/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> >> >> Laughter is the best medicine. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 10:58 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> wrote: >> >> > LOL - ROFL >> >> > >> >> > Its just too funny. >> >> > >> >> > On 7/3/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Dear all, >> >> >> >> >> >> This is my third day in Srinagar and following the Delhi media on >> >> >> the >> >> >> internet, it seems to me that not much has come out about the stand >> >> >> taken by Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs who reside in the Valley. They >> >> >> were supporting the demand to revoke the land transfer order! A >> >> >> demonstration by Sikh leaders here was stopped by the police, but >> >> >> demonstrations by Pandits in Jammu and Delhi, who always complain of >> >> >> being ignored by the media, have been duly highlighted. This >> >> >> imbalance >> >> >> is also reflected on the Reader-List. >> >> >> >> >> >> If anyone's voice is being marginalised in the media discourse, it >> >> >> is >> >> >> that of communal harmony from the Valley, that of Sikhs and >> >> >> Pandits... >> >> >> here is one report I found in that direction. Will post more. >> >> >> >> >> >> best >> >> >> shivam >> >> >> >> >> >> o o o >> >> >> >> >> >> Keep politicians out of shrine board: PDP leader >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=136527 >> >> >> >> >> >> Senior PDP leader, Dr Roop Lal Sharma has advised that Shri Amarnath >> >> >> Shrine Board affairs be handled by top journalists, lawyers, social >> >> >> activists from Kashmiri Pandit community. He stressed that >> >> >> politicians >> >> >> must be kept away from the Board.. >> >> >> >> >> >> SENIOR PEOPLE'S Democratic Party (PDP) leader Dr Roop Lal Sharma has >> >> >> expressed serious concern over the developments in Jammu and Kashmir >> >> >> pertaining to the controversy on land transfer to Shri Amarnath >> >> >> Shrine >> >> >> Board (SASB) and has demanded handing over of the Board to Kashmiri >> >> >> Pandits for management. >> >> >> >> >> >> In a statement issued in Jammu, Dr Sharma has said that the >> >> >> controversy has given a bad name to the state adding, it does not >> >> >> augur well for the secular character of the state and the government >> >> >> should act fast to resolve the issue before it snowballs into a >> >> >> major >> >> >> communal flare-up. >> >> >> >> >> >> Dr Sharma has said that Amarnath shrine belongs to state, >> >> >> particularly >> >> >> Kashmiri Pandits, who are the original inhabitants of the state and >> >> >> the local population of the area, who had been managing the affairs >> >> >> of >> >> >> the shrine for the past many decades. >> >> >> >> >> >> He said that only Kashmiri Pandits have the right to manage the >> >> >> affairs of the shrine besides, the local population of Maliks of >> >> >> Batkote so that the 'yatra' (pilgrimage) is not communalised by some >> >> >> vested interests in the administration. >> >> >> >> >> >> Dr Sharma has also warned the communal elements within the Hindu and >> >> >> the Muslim societies to refrain from giving the 'yatra' a communal >> >> >> colour and has condemned the attack on tourists in Kashmir besides, >> >> >> killing of a Kashmiri youth in the police firing in Kashmir. >> >> >> >> >> >> Elaborating further, Dr Sharma said that the affairs of the shrine >> >> >> should be entrusted to select Kashmiri Pandits comprising known >> >> >> journalists, lawyers and known social activists adding, the >> >> >> political >> >> >> class should be kept at an arms length from the board. >> >> >> >> >> >> Dr Sharma also said that even Kashmiri Pandit leaders, who are >> >> >> affiliated to various groups should be consulted but not given the >> >> >> reins because that will further divide the community, thus harming >> >> >> the >> >> >> interests >> >> >> >> >> >> Hailing the futuristic vision of the PDP patron, Mufti Mohd Sayeed >> >> >> for >> >> >> suggesting the handing over of the shrine to Kashmiri Pandits, Dr >> >> >> Sharma said that the government must act fast on his suggestion >> >> >> considering the fact that Sayeed has always proven right in his >> >> >> assessment of the situations. >> >> >> >> >> >> Dr Sharma has also called for an end to violence and asked Muslim >> >> >> brethren not to fall prey to some over zealous communalists who were >> >> >> vitiating the secular character of Kashmiris, thereby damaging the >> >> >> reputation the world over. >> >> >> >> >> >> He said such incidents would take the situation back to 1990s, thus >> >> >> causing immense damage to the economy of the Kashmiris. >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 12:19:41 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:19:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Kashmiri Pandits should be the ones running Amarnath Board' In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807042341g5f89718lfb98ce1e54f64863@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030820i455ee117l53180ccd5cb5bb48@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807031028g2fa0538csd1fa9bb0f4619a80@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807042331l39d17620o421ebcb972075fc2@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807042335l7ad0b38ah1985c3e9ca09f4a@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807042336t539ea4efv8c5edb0df7d6eb20@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807042339i319ff2d1y77644f8b7445c147@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807042341g5f89718lfb98ce1e54f64863@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807042349p485e2d53m2358208381dcbad6@mail.gmail.com> Dil ko behlaane ke liye ..Shivam yeh khayaal bhi achaa hai On 7/5/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Yes, so far they were coming only from Delhi. Loha lohay ko kat-ta hai, no? > > On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > He also needs some medicine ...after all infectious mails have started to > > some from Kashmir. > > > > On 7/5/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > >> > >> But Aditya is the one laughing! > >> > >> On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Pawan Durani > >> wrote: > >> > You need it. > >> > > >> > On 7/5/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Laughter is the best medicine. > >> >> > >> >> On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 10:58 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > LOL - ROFL > >> >> > > >> >> > Its just too funny. > >> >> > > >> >> > On 7/3/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Dear all, > >> >> >> > >> >> >> This is my third day in Srinagar and following the Delhi media on > >> >> >> the > >> >> >> internet, it seems to me that not much has come out about the > stand > >> >> >> taken by Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs who reside in the Valley. They > >> >> >> were supporting the demand to revoke the land transfer order! A > >> >> >> demonstration by Sikh leaders here was stopped by the police, but > >> >> >> demonstrations by Pandits in Jammu and Delhi, who always complain > of > >> >> >> being ignored by the media, have been duly highlighted. This > >> >> >> imbalance > >> >> >> is also reflected on the Reader-List. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> If anyone's voice is being marginalised in the media discourse, it > >> >> >> is > >> >> >> that of communal harmony from the Valley, that of Sikhs and > >> >> >> Pandits... > >> >> >> here is one report I found in that direction. Will post more. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> best > >> >> >> shivam > >> >> >> > >> >> >> o o o > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Keep politicians out of shrine board: PDP leader > >> >> >> > >> >> >> http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=136527 > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Senior PDP leader, Dr Roop Lal Sharma has advised that Shri > Amarnath > >> >> >> Shrine Board affairs be handled by top journalists, lawyers, > social > >> >> >> activists from Kashmiri Pandit community. He stressed that > >> >> >> politicians > >> >> >> must be kept away from the Board.. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> SENIOR PEOPLE'S Democratic Party (PDP) leader Dr Roop Lal Sharma > has > >> >> >> expressed serious concern over the developments in Jammu and > Kashmir > >> >> >> pertaining to the controversy on land transfer to Shri Amarnath > >> >> >> Shrine > >> >> >> Board (SASB) and has demanded handing over of the Board to > Kashmiri > >> >> >> Pandits for management. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> In a statement issued in Jammu, Dr Sharma has said that the > >> >> >> controversy has given a bad name to the state adding, it does not > >> >> >> augur well for the secular character of the state and the > government > >> >> >> should act fast to resolve the issue before it snowballs into a > >> >> >> major > >> >> >> communal flare-up. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Dr Sharma has said that Amarnath shrine belongs to state, > >> >> >> particularly > >> >> >> Kashmiri Pandits, who are the original inhabitants of the state > and > >> >> >> the local population of the area, who had been managing the > affairs > >> >> >> of > >> >> >> the shrine for the past many decades. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> He said that only Kashmiri Pandits have the right to manage the > >> >> >> affairs of the shrine besides, the local population of Maliks of > >> >> >> Batkote so that the 'yatra' (pilgrimage) is not communalised by > some > >> >> >> vested interests in the administration. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Dr Sharma has also warned the communal elements within the Hindu > and > >> >> >> the Muslim societies to refrain from giving the 'yatra' a communal > >> >> >> colour and has condemned the attack on tourists in Kashmir > besides, > >> >> >> killing of a Kashmiri youth in the police firing in Kashmir. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Elaborating further, Dr Sharma said that the affairs of the shrine > >> >> >> should be entrusted to select Kashmiri Pandits comprising known > >> >> >> journalists, lawyers and known social activists adding, the > >> >> >> political > >> >> >> class should be kept at an arms length from the board. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Dr Sharma also said that even Kashmiri Pandit leaders, who are > >> >> >> affiliated to various groups should be consulted but not given the > >> >> >> reins because that will further divide the community, thus harming > >> >> >> the > >> >> >> interests > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Hailing the futuristic vision of the PDP patron, Mufti Mohd Sayeed > >> >> >> for > >> >> >> suggesting the handing over of the shrine to Kashmiri Pandits, Dr > >> >> >> Sharma said that the government must act fast on his suggestion > >> >> >> considering the fact that Sayeed has always proven right in his > >> >> >> assessment of the situations. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Dr Sharma has also called for an end to violence and asked Muslim > >> >> >> brethren not to fall prey to some over zealous communalists who > were > >> >> >> vitiating the secular character of Kashmiris, thereby damaging the > >> >> >> reputation the world over. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> He said such incidents would take the situation back to 1990s, > thus > >> >> >> causing immense damage to the economy of the Kashmiris. > >> >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> >> > _________________________________________ > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > > > > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 12:20:35 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:20:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807042340g66fa86aep87c5b19a955e7b80@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030822v65264b07p88ebd5cc5073e451@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807042319q7a21c959o48997e85552e7021@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807042337o38b04d5bkc07fe6c96999a7f8@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807042340g66fa86aep87c5b19a955e7b80@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807042350v498d694fs8850de169eb8a453@mail.gmail.com> And you seem to have a monoploly of fiction. On 7/5/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > You mean to say they HAVE published accounts? You mean to say they are > NOT collecting in the name of donations? I mean, I went to Baltal > yesterday and saw the 'donation' receipts and all, spoke to a lot of > people... but you seem to have a monopoly on facts > > On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > If only you know the facts , Mr Jor Na Less Stick..... > > > > On 7/5/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > >> > >> Actually the ISI refused to finance my trip because Pakistan is not > >> taking any interest in Kashmir. Separatists here are both surprised > >> and relieved that PTV did not pay attention to the mass uprising. So > >> my employers were forced to finance my trip. Would you like to look at > >> the bills and accounts? You might also wants to ask the Shri Amarnath > >> Shrine Board, in the same vein, to publish their accounts. As a Hindu > >> I demand to know how they have been spending the money they collect > >> from Muslim (Gujjar, Kashmiri) ponywalas and tentwalas, which they > >> collect as compulsory taxes but show as voluntary donation. Oh and the > >> 20 years old Vaishnu Devi Shrine Board has never published its > >> accounts either... > >> > >> On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 12:57 PM, wrote: > >> > Hi, Shivam, > >> > > >> > who is financing your stay in Srinagar, it looks like you are > being > >> > held hostage with good food and your thoughts are that of a hostage > talking > >> > good about his kidnappers.! By the way I hope you are guest of Gulam > nabi or > >> > Mufti as both are known spin doctors who use the bakras like you.? > >> > > >> > Regards. > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > >> > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:53 pm > >> > Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat > >> > To: sarai list > >> > > >> >> Tolerant Kashmiris > >> >> 26 June, 2008 08:10:48 > >> >> http://www.etalaat.net/english/viewpoint/editorial/1111.html > >> >> > >> >> Vested interests are all out to communalize the on-going agitation > >> >> against transfer of forest land to the Amarnath Shrine Board. Time > and > >> >> again it has been made clear that the on-going agitation is not > >> >> against the Yatra or the Yatries. The agitation is against > >> >> politicization of the Yatra. Kashmiris want the government to entrust > >> >> the job of conducting and facilitating Yatra to the local people who > >> >> have been conducting it effectively since 1860. > >> >> > >> >> To understand the on-going agitation against land transfer in its > >> >> right perspectives one has to look into the history of Kashmir.When > >> >> important decisions concerning the future of Kashmir were taken > >> >> Kashmiris were always ignored. In 1947 a decision was imposed on the > >> >> reluctant people and since then the trend continues. In early 60s the > >> >> government of India omitted Article 238 from Indian constitution and > >> >> thus rendered article 370 infructious. The Article 370 which > >> >> guarantees a special status to the state of Jammu Kashmir reads: "Not > >> >> withstanding any thing nothing in Article 238 shall apply to the > state > >> >> of Jammu Kashmir." Article 370 is still there but article 238 which > >> >> contained the heart and soul of 370 is not there in the constitution. > >> >> Kashmiris to this day do not know about this fraud. > >> >> > >> >> Similarly the government of India abolished the permit system which > >> >> required the non-state subjects to obtain a permit for entering the > >> >> state. Again the people were not taken into confidence. In 1975 a > >> >> popular movement was strangled. Again the people did not protest. In > >> >> 1978 the draconian public safety act (PSA) was framed. People did not > >> >> protest. In 1984 TADA was extended to the state. People remained > >> >> silent. The Gulmarg issue shook them and the transfer of land did the > >> >> miracle. Even this time the government had taken the people for > >> >> granted. > >> >> > >> >> People are angry but they have not thrown caution to the winds. They > >> >> have upheld the high traditions of tolerance and have not harmed any > >> >> Yatri or a tourist. This is exactly what Islam teaches them. The > >> >> Yatries are welcome and so are the tourists. Kashmiris are known for > >> >> their hospitality and they will not disappoint the pilgrims and other > >> >> guests. > >> >> > >> >> History is witness to the fact that Kashmiris have always protected > >> >> their non-Muslim brethren. Hundreds of instances can be quoted to > >> >> prove the point. However, the following incident shall suffice. A > >> >> person who retired as the Chief Conservator of Forests lived in > >> >> Shahr-e-Khaas during his college days. One day while on his way to > the > >> >> college he was intercepted by a crowd. Taken for a Bakra (A supporter > >> >> of Mirwaiz Yusuf Shah) he was given sound thrashing. Somehow he ran > >> >> away but only to be caught by another violent group. This time he was > >> >> taken for a Sher (Supporter of Sheikh Abdullah) and beaten to pulp. > >> >> Again he managed his escape. When caught for the third time, he > >> >> shouted: "I am a Pandit." Nobody touched him this time. He was given > >> >> safe passage. > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> >> list > >> >> List archive: > >> > > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 12:24:02 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 12:24:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Kashmiri Pandits should be the ones running Amarnath Board' In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807042336t539ea4efv8c5edb0df7d6eb20@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Uhhmm excuse me you guys... Either join the thugs on the streets and resort to breaking each other's bones with sticks & stones or please spare us your words, because it's really starting to hurt me, or my mailbox at any rate. Kindly stop pressing the send all reply button and stick to reply to sender only if you're going to carry on in this childish fashion. And no I don't want a reply to this either, thank you. Have a good & pleasant weekend. sj On 7/5/08 12:06 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" wrote: > But Aditya is the one laughing! On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > You need it. > > On 7/5/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् > विज् wrote: >> >> Laughter is the best medicine. >> >> On > Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 10:58 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> > wrote: >> > LOL - ROFL >> > >> > Its just too funny. >> > >> > On 7/3/08, > Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear all, >> > >> >> >> This is my third day in Srinagar and following the Delhi media on > the >> >> internet, it seems to me that not much has come out about the > stand >> >> taken by Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs who reside in the Valley. > They >> >> were supporting the demand to revoke the land transfer order! A >> > >> demonstration by Sikh leaders here was stopped by the police, but >> >> > demonstrations by Pandits in Jammu and Delhi, who always complain of >> >> > being ignored by the media, have been duly highlighted. This imbalance >> >> > is also reflected on the Reader-List. >> >> >> >> If anyone's voice is being > marginalised in the media discourse, it is >> >> that of communal harmony from > the Valley, that of Sikhs and Pandits... >> >> here is one report I found in > that direction. Will post more. >> >> >> >> best >> >> shivam >> >> >> >> o o > o >> >> >> >> Keep politicians out of shrine board: PDP leader >> >> >> >> > http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=136527 >> >> >> >> Senior PDP > leader, Dr Roop Lal Sharma has advised that Shri Amarnath >> >> Shrine Board > affairs be handled by top journalists, lawyers, social >> >> activists from > Kashmiri Pandit community. He stressed that politicians >> >> must be kept > away from the Board.. >> >> >> >> SENIOR PEOPLE'S Democratic Party (PDP) > leader Dr Roop Lal Sharma has >> >> expressed serious concern over the > developments in Jammu and Kashmir >> >> pertaining to the controversy on land > transfer to Shri Amarnath Shrine >> >> Board (SASB) and has demanded handing > over of the Board to Kashmiri >> >> Pandits for management. >> >> >> >> In a > statement issued in Jammu, Dr Sharma has said that the >> >> controversy has > given a bad name to the state adding, it does not >> >> augur well for the > secular character of the state and the government >> >> should act fast to > resolve the issue before it snowballs into a major >> >> communal flare-up. >> > >> >> >> Dr Sharma has said that Amarnath shrine belongs to state, > particularly >> >> Kashmiri Pandits, who are the original inhabitants of the > state and >> >> the local population of the area, who had been managing the > affairs of >> >> the shrine for the past many decades. >> >> >> >> He said > that only Kashmiri Pandits have the right to manage the >> >> affairs of the > shrine besides, the local population of Maliks of >> >> Batkote so that the > 'yatra' (pilgrimage) is not communalised by some >> >> vested interests in the > administration. >> >> >> >> Dr Sharma has also warned the communal elements > within the Hindu and >> >> the Muslim societies to refrain from giving the > 'yatra' a communal >> >> colour and has condemned the attack on tourists in > Kashmir besides, >> >> killing of a Kashmiri youth in the police firing in > Kashmir. >> >> >> >> Elaborating further, Dr Sharma said that the affairs of > the shrine >> >> should be entrusted to select Kashmiri Pandits comprising > known >> >> journalists, lawyers and known social activists adding, the > political >> >> class should be kept at an arms length from the board. >> > >> >> >> Dr Sharma also said that even Kashmiri Pandit leaders, who are >> >> > affiliated to various groups should be consulted but not given the >> >> reins > because that will further divide the community, thus harming the >> >> > interests >> >> >> >> Hailing the futuristic vision of the PDP patron, Mufti > Mohd Sayeed for >> >> suggesting the handing over of the shrine to Kashmiri > Pandits, Dr >> >> Sharma said that the government must act fast on his > suggestion >> >> considering the fact that Sayeed has always proven right in > his >> >> assessment of the situations. >> >> >> >> Dr Sharma has also called > for an end to violence and asked Muslim >> >> brethren not to fall prey to > some over zealous communalists who were >> >> vitiating the secular character > of Kashmiris, thereby damaging the >> >> reputation the world over. >> >> >> > >> He said such incidents would take the situation back to 1990s, thus >> >> > causing immense damage to the economy of the Kashmiris. >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the > subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the > subject header. >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________ > ________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List > archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Sat Jul 5 12:29:17 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:29:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hurriyat reaches out to Amarnath yatris Message-ID: <9c06aab30807042359k72e8540cs99ca795f51f09fb5@mail.gmail.com> Hurriyat reaches out to Amarnath yatris Nazir Masoodi Friday, July 4, 2008 (Srinagar) http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080055636&ch=7/4/2008%204:05:00%20PM Political parties are the ones that are left red-faced in the entire Amarnath shrine land controversy. There was ample proof of this at the base camp where pilgrims and the Hurriyat came together albeit briefly sending out the same message - stop using us as scapegoats to further your votebank politics. There were conciliatory gestures by the separatists for the at the Amarnath Yatra camp at Baltal, ground zero of the land dispute. The yatris returned the warmth showing that politics of hate cannot destroy centuries old bonds. ''Don't divide Hindus and Muslims. Don't push us to fight against each other for your vote bank,'' said Ashok Gupta, a devotee. ''I personally came here to assure them that you do not need security from the state. Every Kashmiri Muslim is your security,'' said Yasin Malik, chairman, JKLF. Hurriyat leaders tried to reassure the pilgrims that the fight for land was motivated by Kashmiri nationalism not religion. ''Even after people were killed and injured here, everyone made it sure that no non-local whether tourist or a yatri was harrased,'' said Hurriyat leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq. The Hurriyat leaders reached out to the Amarnath yatris with a message that the people of the valley will continue to support the yatra and their protests against the forestland transfer to the Amarnath Shrine Board at Baltal is not about communal divides. However, the people of Kashmir have already made their statement. When images of anger and violence were coming out of the Valley for over a week, locals were silently helping the stranded yatris. From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 12:29:40 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 12:29:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Chamliyal Message-ID: And this in J&K just 10 days ago... India-Pakistan border village celebrates festival of harmony June 26th, 2008 - 11:32 pm ICT by IANS - Chamalyal (Jammu and Kashmir), June 26 (IANS) Several thousand Hindus and Muslims Thursday took part in an annual festival in this Jammu and Kashmir village touching the India-Pakistan border in memory of a hermit who devoted his life to preach peace and love more three centuries ago. The devotees at the shrine of Baba Chamlayal here, less than 200 metres from the International Boundary and about 50 km southwest of Jammu, unmindful of the faith of the fellow devotees shared the same earth and water to rid themselves of skin diseases, following a belief in their curative powers. Several hundreds of others gathered across the border to pay their respects to Baba Chamliyal from a distance. Their offerings were brought to the shrine by a column of Pakistani Rangers led by Col. A.M. Shah. They were received by the Indian border guards - the Border Security Force (BSF). Across the border, thousands of Pakistanis in festive dresses waited for the BSF trolleys that finally delivered them their share of ¹sharbat¹ and ¹shakkar¹ - shakkar being the soil in the surroundings of the shrine, and sharbat the water of a well in the area. The mix of the two, the belief goes, cures skin diseases. While Pakistanis stood near the border, Indians were dancing and singing folksongs hailing Baba Chamlayal, a symbol of the Hindu-Muslim brotherhood. Baba, whose real name was Daleep Singh Manhas, was popular among the people of the area. According to the legend, he had magical powers. His popularity spread far and wide, but it was unbearable for a few in the area and he was murdered. The legend has it that as his blood spread, the land there acquired miraculous properties and a well sprung up at the site where his head was placed. This year, the devotees came to the shrine quite early in the morning because of a shutdown call given by several Hindu groups to protest what they called ³Kashmir-centric parties¹ plans to disrupt the annual Amarnath pilgrimage². ³We wanted to be here at all costs, so we started our journey quite early in the morning,² said Ashok Sharma of Kathua, a town about 80 km south of Jammu. ³I didn¹t want to miss this fair.² The Hindu devotees were aware of a row over land allotment to the Amarnath shrine authorities, but they said that should not affect the fair or its celebrations. ³The faith is faith and here Hindus and Muslims are equal. It is a place to unite, not divide,² commented Sheila Sambyal, a young woman from Samba, a border town about 40 km south of winter capital Jammu. From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 12:34:09 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 12:34:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Butter vs Guns/ Gas vs Grain Message-ID: Secret report: biofuel caused food crisis Internal World Bank study delivers blow to plant energy drive * Aditya Chakrabortty * The Guardian, * Friday July 4, 2008 Biofuels have forced global food prices up by 75% - far more than previously estimated - according to a confidential World Bank report obtained by the Guardian. The damning unpublished assessment is based on the most detailed analysis of the crisis so far, carried out by an internationally-respected economist at global financial body. The figure emphatically contradicts the US government's claims that plant-derived fuels contribute less than 3% to food-price rises. It will add to pressure on governments in Washington and across Europe, which have turned to plant-derived fuels to reduce emissions of greenhouse gases and reduce their dependence on imported oil. Senior development sources believe the report, completed in April, has not been published to avoid embarrassing President George Bush. "It would put the World Bank in a political hot-spot with the White House," said one yesterday. The news comes at a critical point in the world's negotiations on biofuels policy. Leaders of the G8 industrialised countries meet next week in Hokkaido, Japan, where they will discuss the food crisis and come under intense lobbying from campaigners calling for a moratorium on the use of plant-derived fuels. It will also put pressure on the British government, which is due to release its own report on the impact of biofuels, the Gallagher Report. The Guardian has previously reported that the British study will state that plant fuels have played a "significant" part in pushing up food prices to record levels. Although it was expected last week, the report has still not been released. "Political leaders seem intent on suppressing and ignoring the strong evidence that biofuels are a major factor in recent food price rises," said Robert Bailey, policy adviser at Oxfam. "It is imperative that we have the full picture. While politicians concentrate on keeping industry lobbies happy, people in poor countries cannot afford enough to eat." Rising food prices have pushed 100m people worldwide below the poverty line, estimates the World Bank, and have sparked riots from Bangladesh to Egypt. Government ministers here have described higher food and fuel prices as "the first real economic crisis of globalisation". President Bush has linked higher food prices to higher demand from India and China, but the leaked World Bank study disputes that: "Rapid income growth in developing countries has not led to large increases in global grain consumption and was not a major factor responsible for the large price increases." Even successive droughts in Australia, calculates the report, have had a marginal impact. Instead, it argues that the EU and US drive for biofuels has had by far the biggest impact on food supply and prices. Since April, all petrol and diesel in Britain has had to include 2.5% from biofuels. The EU has been considering raising that target to 10% by 2020, but is faced with mounting evidence that that will only push food prices higher. "Without the increase in biofuels, global wheat and maize stocks would not have declined appreciably and price increases due to other factors would have been moderate," says the report. The basket of food prices examined in the study rose by 140% between 2002 and this February. The report estimates that higher energy and fertiliser prices accounted for an increase of only 15%, while biofuels have been responsible for a 75% jump over that period. It argues that production of biofuels has distorted food markets in three main ways. First, it has diverted grain away from food for fuel, with over a third of US corn now used to produce ethanol and about half of vegetable oils in the EU going towards the production of biodiesel. Second, farmers have been encouraged to set land aside for biofuel production. Third, it has sparked financial speculation in grains, driving prices up higher. Other reviews of the food crisis looked at it over a much longer period, or have not linked these three factors, and so arrived at smaller estimates of the impact from biofuels. But the report author, Don Mitchell, is a senior economist at the Bank and has done a detailed, month-by-month analysis of the surge in food prices, which allows much closer examination of the link between biofuels and food supply. The report points out biofuels derived from sugarcane, which Brazil specializes in, have not had such a dramatic impact. Supporters of biofuels argue that they are a greener alternative to relying on oil and other fossil fuels, but even that claim has been disputed by some experts, who argue that it does not apply to US production of ethanol from plants. "It is clear that some biofuels have huge impacts on food prices," said Dr David King, the government's former chief scientific adviser, last night. "All we are doing by supporting these is subsidising higher food prices, while doing nothing to tackle climate change." This article appeared in the Guardian on Friday July 04 2008 on p1 of the Top stories section. It was last updated at 00:01 on July 04 2008. From mail at shivamvij.com Sat Jul 5 12:43:03 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:43:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured Message-ID: <9c06aab30807050013l264aaa00w6307e0cd6e2227ef@mail.gmail.com> This is what happens when you prevent people from addressing peaceful gatherings... o o o o Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured Special Correspondent, 5 July 2008 http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/05/stories/2008070559931300.htm The clash followed prayers to celebrate the "victory" in the land transfer issue SRINAGAR: Senior Hurriyat Conference leader Shabir Shah was among 14 people injured on Friday, following a scuffle between police and supporters of separatist leaders after they offered prayers at the Hazratbal shrine to celebrate the recent "victory" in the land transfer issue. The call for "Hazratbal Chalo" was given by Syed Ali Geelani, head of a faction of the Hurriyat Conference and supported by Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, head of another. However, both were placed under house arrest by the police. Mr. Shah and other leaders, however, reached Hazratbal amid heavy deployment of police and paramilitary CRPF and offered prayers besides addressing the people. Mr. Shah and Ashraf Sehrai, another senior leader denounced the government for putting Mr. Geelani and Mr. Mirwaiz under house arrest. A protester hurls back a tear smoke shell towards the police. On their way back, Mr. Shabir Shah, Mr. Sehrai, Naeem Khan, Sheikh Aziz, Shafi Reshi, Firdous Shah and others led a strong procession, which was lathi-charged. Fourteen people, including Mr. Shabir Shah, were injured. He was shifted to the S.K. Institute of Medical Sciences (SKIMS) for treatment. Even as rumours spread that he was critical, Director SKIMS Abdul Hamid Zargar told The Hindu that he was stable. Another procession taken from Jamia Masjid and led by the head imam, was dispersed by police with smoke shells. Many people were arrested. Another Hurriyat leader Javed Mir was arrested when he tried to take out a procession towards Hazratbal in Khanyar area. From mail at shivamvij.com Sat Jul 5 12:46:33 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:46:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mirwaiz, Malik Meet Yatris, Set Record Straight Message-ID: <9c06aab30807050016g34a7ce39ncbc6ec275732b660@mail.gmail.com> Mirwaiz, Malik Meet Yatris, Set Record Straight http://www.kashmirobserver.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=377:mirwaiz-malik-meet-yatris-set-record-straight&catid=50:localnews&Itemid=81 Srinagar, July 03, KONS: Mirwaiz Umer Farooq of the Hurriyat Conference and Chairman Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) , Muhammad Yaseen Malik today met Amarnath yatris separately in Srinagar and Baltal, stressing that the Kashmiri people were not against the pilgrimage but had always maintained harmony and brotherhood with yatris and tourists. Speaking to large number of yatris at the TRC who had returned from Darshan at the Amarnath cave, the Mirwaiz said that the agitation in Kashmir was not against the Amarnath pilgrimage, but against the designs of the government which had been hell bent on disposing off Kashmiri land. He assured the yatris that they would be provided all facilities as traditionally given by Kashmiris. Condemning the protests by Hindu extremists in Jammu, the Mirwaiz said that these parties had always tried to serve their petty ends by dividing people on different pretexts, and the demolition of the Babri Masjid was an example of their tactics. The Mirwaiz, who was accompanied by Shabir Ahmad Shah, Sheikh Abdul Aziz, Nayeem Ahmad Khan, Javed Ahmad Mir, and Ghulam Nabi Waseem, oversaw arrangements for the yatris' boarding and lodging. JKLF chairman, Muhammad Yaseen Malik, distributed relief items, including blankets, eatables and other essentials among yatris at Baltal, asserting that Islam taught religious tolerance and compassion towards the weak. He said that his party had always upheld communal harmony. He asserted that Kashmiris were not against the yatra but had always borne pilgrims on their shoulders for the journey to the Amarnath shrine. "But some communal forces in India have begun to stoke communal fires in Jammu for electoral gains," he said, asking the yatris to continue their pilgrimage without fear. From mail at shivamvij.com Sat Jul 5 12:47:29 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:47:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mirwaiz, Malik Meet Yatris, Set Record Straight In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807050016g34a7ce39ncbc6ec275732b660@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807050016g34a7ce39ncbc6ec275732b660@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807050017n26c789adm88ab06ed8b8fbf9c@mail.gmail.com> Apart from NDTV, the Delhi media seems to have ignored this. Shivam On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 12:46 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > Mirwaiz, Malik Meet Yatris, Set Record Straight > > http://www.kashmirobserver.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=377:mirwaiz-malik-meet-yatris-set-record-straight&catid=50:localnews&Itemid=81 > > Srinagar, July 03, KONS: Mirwaiz Umer Farooq of the Hurriyat > Conference and Chairman Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) , > Muhammad Yaseen Malik today met Amarnath yatris separately in > Srinagar and Baltal, stressing that the Kashmiri people were not > against the pilgrimage but had always maintained harmony and > brotherhood with yatris and tourists. > Speaking to large number of yatris at the TRC who had returned from > Darshan at the Amarnath cave, the Mirwaiz said that the agitation in > Kashmir was not against the Amarnath pilgrimage, but against the > designs of the government which had been hell bent on disposing off > Kashmiri land. > He assured the yatris that they would be provided all facilities as > traditionally given by Kashmiris. > Condemning the protests by Hindu extremists in Jammu, the Mirwaiz said > that these parties had always tried to serve their petty ends by > dividing people on different pretexts, and the demolition of the Babri > Masjid was an example of their tactics. > The Mirwaiz, who was accompanied by Shabir Ahmad Shah, Sheikh Abdul > Aziz, Nayeem Ahmad Khan, Javed Ahmad Mir, and Ghulam Nabi Waseem, > oversaw arrangements for the yatris' boarding and lodging. > JKLF chairman, Muhammad Yaseen Malik, distributed relief items, > including blankets, eatables and other essentials among yatris at > Baltal, asserting that Islam taught religious tolerance and compassion > towards the weak. > He said that his party had always upheld communal harmony. > He asserted that Kashmiris were not against the yatra but had always > borne pilgrims on their shoulders for the journey to the Amarnath > shrine. > "But some communal forces in India have begun to stoke communal fires > in Jammu for electoral gains," he said, asking the yatris to continue > their pilgrimage without fear. > From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Jul 5 12:49:12 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:49:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70807042337o38b04d5bkc07fe6c96999a7f8@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030822v65264b07p88ebd5cc5073e451@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807042319q7a21c959o48997e85552e7021@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807042337o38b04d5bkc07fe6c96999a7f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <872E9A8E-B507-441F-9892-798BA32D426F@sarai.net> Dear Shivam, I am surprised that you have suggested that the Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board be persuaded to publish its accounts. And for once, I see the point that our friends Aditya Raj Kaul and Pawan Durani seem to be making. Asking for a transparency in the accounts of the Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board is like asking those who have Roots in Kashmir and Branches elsewhere, to account for how much high quality organic fertilizer it takes to keep their roots and branches elsewhere in a suitably flourishing state, or even, to name the entities (in north, south and ice blocks) that supply the fertilizer. Besides, there is the delicate problem, as far as the Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board is concerned, of the inordinate amount it has to keep spending on dry ice, and other materials to keep the holy lingam, and its own member(s) in an appropriate state of holy tumescence. There have been attempts to get a handle on this figure in the past, but they are wrapped in the shrouds of a holy mystery, as is in keeping with its sacred and esoteric status as a precarious relic that requires several acres of land for its own protection. On certain afternoons, if you were to visit the hallowed grounds of Shri Indiaji Internationalji Centreji, a holy shrine in Delhi, you may be able to witness Shri Jagmohan ji, erstwhile guv'ner of the state of Jammu and Kashmir, distinguished member, of the Shri Amarnath Ji Shrine Board, and mentor of several of our dear shadow warriors on this list, in the process of relieving himself of his frozen turbulences, within the appropriate facilities designed for that purpose, under the watchful eye of his security detail. Now, the destiny of the troubled state over which he presided with such statesmanlike aplomb on more than one occasion, and the waning icy fortunes of the Shri Amarnath Ji Shrine Board, give our distinguished member's member much cause for discomfort. And I have personally witnessed the martyred expression on his face while he attempts to adjust his attire, alleviating the momentary discomfort that his own cchari mubarak might be experiencing. Asking for the accounts of Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board is a terrible impertinence, because it amounts to asking for how the likes of Shri Jagmohan ji's frozen turbulence keeps from melting, despite global warming and all that. I do hope you will desist from making such impertinent suggestions in future. And remember, while you bear the punishment for your impertinences in the form of the righteous laughter of those you have offended, that those who try to always have the last laugh, might end up being the last left laughing. regards, and it's such a pity isn't it, that the Indian Standards Institution, also known as the ISI, whose mark helped us determine the quality of the products that we all use in our daily life, has fallen on such hard times. Bum Bholey, Bum Bum Bholey, Shuddha On 05-Jul-08, at 12:07 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > If only you know the facts , Mr Jor Na Less Stick..... > > On 7/5/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > wrote: >> >> Actually the ISI refused to finance my trip because Pakistan is not >> taking any interest in Kashmir. Separatists here are both surprised >> and relieved that PTV did not pay attention to the mass uprising. So >> my employers were forced to finance my trip. Would you like to >> look at >> the bills and accounts? You might also wants to ask the Shri Amarnath >> Shrine Board, in the same vein, to publish their accounts. As a Hindu >> I demand to know how they have been spending the money they collect >> from Muslim (Gujjar, Kashmiri) ponywalas and tentwalas, which they >> collect as compulsory taxes but show as voluntary donation. Oh and >> the >> 20 years old Vaishnu Devi Shrine Board has never published its >> accounts either... >> >> On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 12:57 PM, wrote: >>> Hi, Shivam, >>> >>> who is financing your stay in Srinagar, it looks like you are >>> being >> held hostage with good food and your thoughts are that of a >> hostage talking >> good about his kidnappers.! By the way I hope you are guest of >> Gulam nabi or >> Mufti as both are known spin doctors who use the bakras like you.? >>> >>> Regards. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् >>> Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:53 pm >>> Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat >>> To: sarai list >>> >>>> Tolerant Kashmiris >>>> 26 June, 2008 08:10:48 >>>> http://www.etalaat.net/english/viewpoint/editorial/1111.html >>>> >>>> Vested interests are all out to communalize the on-going agitation >>>> against transfer of forest land to the Amarnath Shrine Board. >>>> Time and >>>> again it has been made clear that the on-going agitation is not >>>> against the Yatra or the Yatries. The agitation is against >>>> politicization of the Yatra. Kashmiris want the government to >>>> entrust >>>> the job of conducting and facilitating Yatra to the local people >>>> who >>>> have been conducting it effectively since 1860. >>>> >>>> To understand the on-going agitation against land transfer in its >>>> right perspectives one has to look into the history of Kashmir.When >>>> important decisions concerning the future of Kashmir were taken >>>> Kashmiris were always ignored. In 1947 a decision was imposed on >>>> the >>>> reluctant people and since then the trend continues. In early >>>> 60s the >>>> government of India omitted Article 238 from Indian constitution >>>> and >>>> thus rendered article 370 infructious. The Article 370 which >>>> guarantees a special status to the state of Jammu Kashmir reads: >>>> "Not >>>> withstanding any thing nothing in Article 238 shall apply to the >>>> state >>>> of Jammu Kashmir." Article 370 is still there but article 238 which >>>> contained the heart and soul of 370 is not there in the >>>> constitution. >>>> Kashmiris to this day do not know about this fraud. >>>> >>>> Similarly the government of India abolished the permit system which >>>> required the non-state subjects to obtain a permit for entering the >>>> state. Again the people were not taken into confidence. In 1975 a >>>> popular movement was strangled. Again the people did not >>>> protest. In >>>> 1978 the draconian public safety act (PSA) was framed. People >>>> did not >>>> protest. In 1984 TADA was extended to the state. People remained >>>> silent. The Gulmarg issue shook them and the transfer of land >>>> did the >>>> miracle. Even this time the government had taken the people for >>>> granted. >>>> >>>> People are angry but they have not thrown caution to the winds. >>>> They >>>> have upheld the high traditions of tolerance and have not harmed >>>> any >>>> Yatri or a tourist. This is exactly what Islam teaches them. The >>>> Yatries are welcome and so are the tourists. Kashmiris are known >>>> for >>>> their hospitality and they will not disappoint the pilgrims and >>>> other >>>> guests. >>>> >>>> History is witness to the fact that Kashmiris have always protected >>>> their non-Muslim brethren. Hundreds of instances can be quoted to >>>> prove the point. However, the following incident shall suffice. A >>>> person who retired as the Chief Conservator of Forests lived in >>>> Shahr-e-Khaas during his college days. One day while on his way >>>> to the >>>> college he was intercepted by a crowd. Taken for a Bakra (A >>>> supporter >>>> of Mirwaiz Yusuf Shah) he was given sound thrashing. Somehow he >>>> ran >>>> away but only to be caught by another violent group. This time >>>> he was >>>> taken for a Sher (Supporter of Sheikh Abdullah) and beaten to pulp. >>>> Again he managed his escape. When caught for the third time, he >>>> shouted: "I am a Pandit." Nobody touched him this time. He was >>>> given >>>> safe passage. >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>>> list >>>> List archive: >>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 13:07:17 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 13:07:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807050013l264aaa00w6307e0cd6e2227ef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I think you may want to ask why it was necessary to begin a victory rally from a religious place and how any of us would have reacted if Advani were to embark on another 'victory' rally from Somnath or Ayodhya. These so-called victory rallies will only add fuel to the Jammu-Kashmir/ Hindu-Muslim conflagration. Hazrat Bal and the Jama Masjid are not neutral sites and have been politically charged ever since the 1930s when the Quit Kashmir movement was launched against the Maharaja. What must have started off as an equally 'peaceful' gathering turned violent and a man was killed. That was reason enough for mass rioting. You may be aware of the siege of Hazrat Bal in the early '90s or for that matter the siege of Charar e-Sharif in '95 or for that matter the Golden Temple in the '80s. The Hurriyat is not unaware that the state cannot risk a religious site becoming another site of contestation. It would try and control what in all likelihood would turn into yet another communally charged and violent event. And yet it decided to go ahead. The stakes are high and I really don't think anyone is above using religion to further their political ends. --sj On 7/5/08 12:43 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" wrote: > This is what happens when you prevent people from addressing > peaceful gatherings... o o o o Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among > 14 injured Special Correspondent, 5 July > 2008 http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/05/stories/2008070559931300.htm The clash > followed prayers to celebrate the "victory" in the land transfer > issue SRINAGAR: Senior Hurriyat Conference leader Shabir Shah was among > 14 people injured on Friday, following a scuffle between police and supporters > of separatist leaders after they offered prayers at the Hazratbal shrine to > celebrate the recent "victory" in the land transfer issue. The call for > "Hazratbal Chalo" was given by Syed Ali Geelani, head of a faction of the > Hurriyat Conference and supported by Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, head of another. > However, both were placed under house arrest by the police. Mr. Shah and other > leaders, however, reached Hazratbal amid heavy deployment of police and > paramilitary CRPF and offered prayers besides addressing the people. Mr. Shah > and Ashraf Sehrai, another senior leader denounced the government for putting > Mr. Geelani and Mr. Mirwaiz under house arrest. A protester hurls back a tear > smoke shell towards the police. On their way back, Mr. Shabir Shah, Mr. > Sehrai, Naeem Khan, Sheikh Aziz, Shafi Reshi, Firdous Shah and others led a > strong procession, which was lathi-charged. Fourteen people, including Mr. > Shabir Shah, were injured. He was shifted to the S.K. Institute of Medical > Sciences (SKIMS) for treatment. Even as rumours spread that he was critical, > Director SKIMS Abdul Hamid Zargar told The Hindu that he was stable. Another > procession taken from Jamia Masjid and led by the head imam, was dispersed > by police with smoke shells. Many people were arrested. Another > Hurriyat leader Javed Mir was arrested when he tried to take out a > procession towards Hazratbal in Khanyar > area. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Jul 5 13:09:28 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 12:39:28 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807042340g66fa86aep87c5b19a955e7b80@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030822v65264b07p88ebd5cc5073e451@mail.gmail.com> <"e3 97bab8696c1.486e172d"@vsnl.net> <9c06aab30807042319q7a21c959o48997e85552e7021@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807042337o38b04d5bkc07fe6c96999a7f8@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807042340g66fa86aep87c5b19a955e7b80@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, Shivam, your thought regarding accountability of funds of any religious place, visited by devotees is really laudable, but it should uniformly apply to all the places be it the darga, or a church and any ppace where worshippers have gone to have the feel of spiritual well being, or for faith. That apart, would you ask for the accounts of Rajiv Gandhi Foundation, Nehru and Indira gandhi Foundation which keeps the charisma of money from not melting.? In these funds are from general citizens tax paid money, irrespective of their religion and faith, any explanations as to how the funds are utilised except five star dinners for seminars of non-consequence.! Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 12:10 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat To: Pawan Durani Cc: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, sarai list > You mean to say they HAVE published accounts? You mean to say they are > NOT collecting in the name of donations? I mean, I went to Baltal > yesterday and saw the 'donation' receipts and all, spoke to a lot of > people... but you seem to have a monopoly on facts > > On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > If only you know the facts , Mr Jor Na Less Stick..... > > > > On 7/5/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > >> > >> Actually the ISI refused to finance my trip because Pakistan is not > >> taking any interest in Kashmir. Separatists here are both surprised > >> and relieved that PTV did not pay attention to the mass > uprising. So > >> my employers were forced to finance my trip. Would you like to > look at > >> the bills and accounts? You might also wants to ask the Shri > Amarnath>> Shrine Board, in the same vein, to publish their > accounts. As a Hindu > >> I demand to know how they have been spending the money they collect > >> from Muslim (Gujjar, Kashmiri) ponywalas and tentwalas, which they > >> collect as compulsory taxes but show as voluntary donation. Oh > and the > >> 20 years old Vaishnu Devi Shrine Board has never published its > >> accounts either... > >> > >> On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 12:57 PM, wrote: > >> > Hi, Shivam, > >> > > >> > who is financing your stay in Srinagar, it looks like you > are being > >> > held hostage with good food and your thoughts are that of a > hostage talking > >> > good about his kidnappers.! By the way I hope you are guest > of Gulam nabi or > >> > Mufti as both are known spin doctors who use the bakras like > you.?>> > > >> > Regards. > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > >> > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:53 pm > >> > Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in > Etalaat>> > To: sarai list > >> > > >> >> Tolerant Kashmiris > >> >> 26 June, 2008 08:10:48 > >> >> http://www.etalaat.net/english/viewpoint/editorial/1111.html > >> >> > >> >> Vested interests are all out to communalize the on-going > agitation>> >> against transfer of forest land to the Amarnath > Shrine Board. Time and > >> >> again it has been made clear that the on-going agitation is not > >> >> against the Yatra or the Yatries. The agitation is against > >> >> politicization of the Yatra. Kashmiris want the government > to entrust > >> >> the job of conducting and facilitating Yatra to the local > people who > >> >> have been conducting it effectively since 1860. > >> >> > >> >> To understand the on-going agitation against land transfer > in its > >> >> right perspectives one has to look into the history of > Kashmir.When>> >> important decisions concerning the future of > Kashmir were taken > >> >> Kashmiris were always ignored. In 1947 a decision was > imposed on the > >> >> reluctant people and since then the trend continues. In > early 60s the > >> >> government of India omitted Article 238 from Indian > constitution and > >> >> thus rendered article 370 infructious. The Article 370 which > >> >> guarantees a special status to the state of Jammu Kashmir > reads: "Not > >> >> withstanding any thing nothing in Article 238 shall apply to > the state > >> >> of Jammu Kashmir." Article 370 is still there but article > 238 which > >> >> contained the heart and soul of 370 is not there in the > constitution.>> >> Kashmiris to this day do not know about this fraud. > >> >> > >> >> Similarly the government of India abolished the permit > system which > >> >> required the non-state subjects to obtain a permit for > entering the > >> >> state. Again the people were not taken into confidence. In > 1975 a > >> >> popular movement was strangled. Again the people did not > protest. In > >> >> 1978 the draconian public safety act (PSA) was framed. > People did not > >> >> protest. In 1984 TADA was extended to the state. People remained > >> >> silent. The Gulmarg issue shook them and the transfer of > land did the > >> >> miracle. Even this time the government had taken the people for > >> >> granted. > >> >> > >> >> People are angry but they have not thrown caution to the > winds. They > >> >> have upheld the high traditions of tolerance and have not > harmed any > >> >> Yatri or a tourist. This is exactly what Islam teaches them. The > >> >> Yatries are welcome and so are the tourists. Kashmiris are > known for > >> >> their hospitality and they will not disappoint the pilgrims > and other > >> >> guests. > >> >> > >> >> History is witness to the fact that Kashmiris have always > protected>> >> their non-Muslim brethren. Hundreds of instances > can be quoted to > >> >> prove the point. However, the following incident shall > suffice. A > >> >> person who retired as the Chief Conservator of Forests lived in > >> >> Shahr-e-Khaas during his college days. One day while on his > way to the > >> >> college he was intercepted by a crowd. Taken for a Bakra (A > supporter>> >> of Mirwaiz Yusuf Shah) he was given sound > thrashing. Somehow he ran > >> >> away but only to be caught by another violent group. This > time he was > >> >> taken for a Sher (Supporter of Sheikh Abdullah) and beaten > to pulp. > >> >> Again he managed his escape. When caught for the third time, he > >> >> shouted: "I am a Pandit." Nobody touched him this time. He > was given > >> >> safe passage. > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with>> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> >> list > >> >> List archive: > >> > > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 13:15:05 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 13:15:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mirwaiz, Malik Meet Yatris, Set Record Straight In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807050016g34a7ce39ncbc6ec275732b660@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807050016g34a7ce39ncbc6ec275732b660@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807050045w6e500454v273d9ba1c691a8a4@mail.gmail.com> the gang is incomplete without Farook Ahmad Dar ...alias Bitta Karate ..... Hazaaron Hindu maar ke katil yatri se milne chale On 7/5/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Mirwaiz, Malik Meet Yatris, Set Record Straight > > > http://www.kashmirobserver.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=377:mirwaiz-malik-meet-yatris-set-record-straight&catid=50:localnews&Itemid=81 > > Srinagar, July 03, KONS: Mirwaiz Umer Farooq of the Hurriyat > Conference and Chairman Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) , > Muhammad Yaseen Malik today met Amarnath yatris separately in > Srinagar and Baltal, stressing that the Kashmiri people were not > against the pilgrimage but had always maintained harmony and > brotherhood with yatris and tourists. > Speaking to large number of yatris at the TRC who had returned from > Darshan at the Amarnath cave, the Mirwaiz said that the agitation in > Kashmir was not against the Amarnath pilgrimage, but against the > designs of the government which had been hell bent on disposing off > Kashmiri land. > He assured the yatris that they would be provided all facilities as > traditionally given by Kashmiris. > Condemning the protests by Hindu extremists in Jammu, the Mirwaiz said > that these parties had always tried to serve their petty ends by > dividing people on different pretexts, and the demolition of the Babri > Masjid was an example of their tactics. > The Mirwaiz, who was accompanied by Shabir Ahmad Shah, Sheikh Abdul > Aziz, Nayeem Ahmad Khan, Javed Ahmad Mir, and Ghulam Nabi Waseem, > oversaw arrangements for the yatris' boarding and lodging. > JKLF chairman, Muhammad Yaseen Malik, distributed relief items, > including blankets, eatables and other essentials among yatris at > Baltal, asserting that Islam taught religious tolerance and compassion > towards the weak. > He said that his party had always upheld communal harmony. > He asserted that Kashmiris were not against the yatra but had always > borne pilgrims on their shoulders for the journey to the Amarnath > shrine. > "But some communal forces in India have begun to stoke communal fires > in Jammu for electoral gains," he said, asking the yatris to continue > their pilgrimage without fear. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 13:17:50 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 13:17:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured In-Reply-To: References: <9c06aab30807050013l264aaa00w6307e0cd6e2227ef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807050047l480b2f9dlbe4328139ea70199@mail.gmail.com> Shivam , Please visit Pokhribal ...it is near Hari Parbat ....that would be good for you in long time. Pawan On 7/5/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > > I think you may want to ask why it was necessary to begin a victory rally > from a religious place and how any of us would have reacted if Advani were > to embark on another 'victory' rally from Somnath or Ayodhya. These > so-called victory rallies will only add fuel to the Jammu-Kashmir/ > Hindu-Muslim conflagration. > > Hazrat Bal and the Jama Masjid are not neutral sites and have been > politically charged ever since the 1930s when the Quit Kashmir movement was > launched against the Maharaja. What must have started off as an equally > 'peaceful' gathering turned violent and a man was killed. That was reason > enough for mass rioting. You may be aware of the siege of Hazrat Bal in > the > early '90s or for that matter the siege of Charar e-Sharif in '95 or for > that matter the Golden Temple in the '80s. > > The Hurriyat is not unaware that the state cannot risk a religious site > becoming another site of contestation. It would try and control what in > all > likelihood would turn into yet another communally charged and violent > event. > And yet it decided to go ahead. The stakes are high and I really don't > think anyone is above using religion to further their political ends. > --sj > > > On 7/5/08 12:43 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" wrote: > > > This is what happens when you prevent people from addressing > > peaceful > gatherings... > > > o o o o > > > Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among > > 14 injured > > Special Correspondent, 5 July > > 2008 > http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/05/stories/2008070559931300.htm > > The clash > > followed prayers to celebrate the "victory" in the land transfer > > issue > > > SRINAGAR: Senior Hurriyat Conference leader Shabir Shah was among > > 14 > people injured on Friday, following a scuffle between police and > supporters > > of separatist leaders after they offered prayers at the > Hazratbal shrine to > > celebrate the recent "victory" in the land > transfer issue. > > The call for > > "Hazratbal Chalo" was given by Syed Ali Geelani, head of > a faction of the > > Hurriyat Conference and supported by Mirwaiz Umar > Farooq, head of another. > > However, both were placed under house arrest > by the police. Mr. Shah and other > > leaders, however, reached Hazratbal > amid heavy deployment of police and > > paramilitary CRPF and offered > prayers besides addressing the people. > > Mr. Shah > > and Ashraf Sehrai, another senior leader denounced the > government for putting > > Mr. Geelani and Mr. Mirwaiz under house arrest. > > A protester hurls back a tear > > smoke shell towards the police. > > On their way back, Mr. Shabir Shah, Mr. > > Sehrai, Naeem Khan, Sheikh > Aziz, Shafi Reshi, Firdous Shah and others led a > > strong procession, > which was lathi-charged. > > Fourteen people, including Mr. > > Shabir Shah, were injured. He was > shifted to the S.K. Institute of Medical > > Sciences (SKIMS) for > treatment. > > Even as rumours spread that he was critical, > > Director SKIMS Abdul > Hamid Zargar told The Hindu that he was stable. Another > > procession > taken from Jamia Masjid and led by the head imam, was dispersed > > by > police with smoke shells. Many people were arrested. Another > > Hurriyat > leader Javed Mir was arrested when he tried to take out a > > procession > towards Hazratbal in Khanyar > > area. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To > > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in > > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Jul 5 13:19:55 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 12:49:55 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Kashmiri Pandits should be the ones runningAmarnath Board' In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807042336g12b0672ds27d01e5e96355166@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030820i455ee117l53180ccd5cb5bb48@mail.gmail.com> <"63 53c690807031028g2fa0538csd1fa9bb0f4619a80"@mail.gmail.com> <"6b79f1a7080703105 9x5436abd6le857c59215bc1491"@mail.gmail.com> <"9c06aab30807042332i3f053399x5ff 250c9eba9a81"@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807042336i295de18fqa3c92c1333142952@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807042336g12b0672ds27d01e5e96355166@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, Shivam, your partisan perspectives supporting the separatists and the PDP are making very interesting read materials. For one, it was not necessary to "give" land to shrine board in the first place as the yatris used it only during the yatra which started in early period for 15 days, commercial gains made it for extension to sixty days of the yatra. Moot issue is why PDP and Congress thought of "giving " land to shrine board. ! Apart from eco degradation that happens all the while for roads, construction of hospitality centres, even dal lake is not in its pristine form any more. After the drama of "Giving" the land with an eye for electoral gains in the rest of the nation, PDP suddenly realised that it is the best tool to garner votes of kashmiris by isolating Congress, as PDP has no presence any where else in the nation. The love between separatists and PDP is well documented as Muftis misadventures are , as his one daughter is in UAE safekeeping his loot, the other daughter is suddenly in poll mode and all this is gimmick of PDP and Congress to cater to the vote banks, you are good in your work as "journalist" and ofcourse your next post you can have a pre poll survey also like your colleague Yogendra. ? After "giving" the land what was the urgent need to take it back, is it not the feel of getting lost in the votebanks of Kashmir for Congress, with blame games on governors. ? We indians are real experts in blame game, and we are never responsible but are all others are responsible for our ignorance. ! Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 12:09 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 'Kashmiri Pandits should be the ones runningAmarnath Board' To: Pawan Durani Cc: sarai list > Not yet > > On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > Have you joined Etalaat ? > > > > On 7/5/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > >> > >> Stop playing with my (journalistic) sentiments > >> > >> On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 11:29 PM, Pawan Durani > >> wrote: > >> > Shivam , > >> > > >> > grow up ..... whom are you trying to befool . If you do not > know a thing > >> > about Kashmir , please stop acting an expert. > >> > > >> > Are you even aware that it was PDP who did not allow passage of > >> > protection > >> > of temples in Kashmir bill ..... in the assembly.. > >> > > >> > Shivam , you re suffering from a Stokholm syndrome. > >> > > >> > Grow up...... your talk of communal harmony in Kashmir can be > best>> > described > >> > as "idiotic" > >> > > >> > Stop playing with our sentiments. > >> > > >> > > >> > Pawan > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 7/3/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> >> > >> >> LOL - ROFL > >> >> > >> >> Its just too funny. > >> >> > >> >> On 7/3/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > Dear all, > >> >> > > >> >> > This is my third day in Srinagar and following the Delhi > media on the > >> >> > internet, it seems to me that not much has come out about > the stand > >> >> > taken by Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs who reside in the > Valley. They > >> >> > were supporting the demand to revoke the land transfer > order! A > >> >> > demonstration by Sikh leaders here was stopped by the > police, but > >> >> > demonstrations by Pandits in Jammu and Delhi, who always > complain of > >> >> > being ignored by the media, have been duly highlighted. This > >> >> > imbalance > >> >> > is also reflected on the Reader-List. > >> >> > > >> >> > If anyone's voice is being marginalised in the media > discourse, it is > >> >> > that of communal harmony from the Valley, that of Sikhs and > >> >> > Pandits... > >> >> > here is one report I found in that direction. Will post more. > >> >> > > >> >> > best > >> >> > shivam > >> >> > > >> >> > o o o > >> >> > > >> >> > Keep politicians out of shrine board: PDP leader > >> >> > > >> >> > http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=136527 > >> >> > > >> >> > Senior PDP leader, Dr Roop Lal Sharma has advised that > Shri Amarnath > >> >> > Shrine Board affairs be handled by top journalists, > lawyers, social > >> >> > activists from Kashmiri Pandit community. He stressed that > >> >> > politicians > >> >> > must be kept away from the Board.. > >> >> > > >> >> > SENIOR PEOPLE'S Democratic Party (PDP) leader Dr Roop Lal > Sharma has > >> >> > expressed serious concern over the developments in Jammu > and Kashmir > >> >> > pertaining to the controversy on land transfer to Shri > Amarnath>> >> > Shrine > >> >> > Board (SASB) and has demanded handing over of the Board to > Kashmiri>> >> > Pandits for management. > >> >> > > >> >> > In a statement issued in Jammu, Dr Sharma has said that the > >> >> > controversy has given a bad name to the state adding, it > does not > >> >> > augur well for the secular character of the state and the > government>> >> > should act fast to resolve the issue before it > snowballs into a major > >> >> > communal flare-up. > >> >> > > >> >> > Dr Sharma has said that Amarnath shrine belongs to state, > >> >> > particularly > >> >> > Kashmiri Pandits, who are the original inhabitants of the > state and > >> >> > the local population of the area, who had been managing > the affairs > >> >> > of > >> >> > the shrine for the past many decades. > >> >> > > >> >> > He said that only Kashmiri Pandits have the right to > manage the > >> >> > affairs of the shrine besides, the local population of > Maliks of > >> >> > Batkote so that the 'yatra' (pilgrimage) is not > communalised by some > >> >> > vested interests in the administration. > >> >> > > >> >> > Dr Sharma has also warned the communal elements within the > Hindu and > >> >> > the Muslim societies to refrain from giving the 'yatra' a > communal>> >> > colour and has condemned the attack on tourists in > Kashmir besides, > >> >> > killing of a Kashmiri youth in the police firing in Kashmir. > >> >> > > >> >> > Elaborating further, Dr Sharma said that the affairs of > the shrine > >> >> > should be entrusted to select Kashmiri Pandits comprising > known>> >> > journalists, lawyers and known social activists > adding, the political > >> >> > class should be kept at an arms length from the board. > >> >> > > >> >> > Dr Sharma also said that even Kashmiri Pandit leaders, who are > >> >> > affiliated to various groups should be consulted but not > given the > >> >> > reins because that will further divide the community, thus > harming>> >> > the > >> >> > interests > >> >> > > >> >> > Hailing the futuristic vision of the PDP patron, Mufti > Mohd Sayeed > >> >> > for > >> >> > suggesting the handing over of the shrine to Kashmiri > Pandits, Dr > >> >> > Sharma said that the government must act fast on his > suggestion>> >> > considering the fact that Sayeed has always > proven right in his > >> >> > assessment of the situations. > >> >> > > >> >> > Dr Sharma has also called for an end to violence and asked > Muslim>> >> > brethren not to fall prey to some over zealous > communalists who were > >> >> > vitiating the secular character of Kashmiris, thereby > damaging the > >> >> > reputation the world over. > >> >> > > >> >> > He said such incidents would take the situation back to > 1990s, thus > >> >> > causing immense damage to the economy of the Kashmiris. > >> >> > _________________________________________ > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> > List archive: > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with>> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> List archive: > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 13:20:48 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 13:20:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal Message-ID: Hurriyat Seizes Hazratbal Stage Srinagar, July 04, KONS: Brushing aside the Waqf Board¹s resistance, Hurriyat leaders today took hold of the politically potent Hazratbal stage in a bid to make an unmistakable display of their public clout in Kashmir. The shrine has been a centre of public movements for decades, successively and artfully used by major political figures, Sheikh Muhammad Abdullah included, to retain their hold on the masses. After falling into the militant lap during the early nineties, the current rulers of the state tried to de-politicize it by overhauling its management system by replacing the NC-backed Muslim Auqaf Trust with the seemingly neutral Waqf Board. Both Mufti Muhammad Sayeed and Ghulam Nabi Azad have scrupulously avoided turning the shrine into a platform for themselves, perhaps out of the conviction that it was a double-edged sword which their opponents, both mainstream and separatist, could turn against them. But the tide seemed to have turned today, despite the Waqf Board¹s warning the other day that Hazratbal would not be allowed to be used for political activities. Filling in for their respective chairmen, senior Hurriyat leaders, Shabir Ahmad Shah and Muhammad Ashraf Sahrai, addressed the congregation at Hazratbal in defiance of the government-controlled Waqf Board¹s ban on political activity at the holy shrine. Shah said that the people of the state were united and ready to counter any conspiracy. Calling for a total boycott of the forthcoming assembly elections, Shahsaid that polls were not a solution to the Kashmir issue and ³we cannot benefit India by taking part in the polls in a betrayal of the sacrifices of martyrs.² ³Boycott is a powerful and peaceful weapon in the hands of the people by which they can counter Indian propaganda on Kashmir,² he said. Referring to the land transfer issue, Shah said that it was not a matter of land alone but a question of the national identity of Kashmiris for which the entire state had marched with steeled breasts. ³We are not against the yatra, nor do we want to harm the yatris, and the Kashmiris have proved it in the recent days,² he said. ³It is unfortunate that Muslims are being targeted with violence in Jammu, and the police is a mute spectator, even though no yatri or tourist suffered as much as a scratch in the nine days of agitation in the valley,² he said. Attacking pro-India parties, Shah said that they had been exposed and that the people had realized that they were out to barter away Kashmiri land. ³In the present circumstances, people should take timely and correct decisions, as even a minor mistake can prove to be a heavy burden on coming generations,² he said. Condemning the aggressive designs of the extremist Hindu parties, he said that they had begun to serve their ends by giving communal colour to even peaceful issues. ³They are spawning hatred in the name of religion. The people of Jammu and Kashmir will have to defeat their plots,² he said. Geelani¹s right hand man, Muhammad Ashraf Sahrai, said that Kashmiris would complete the mission of the martyrs as they had offered immense sacrifices during the ongoing struggle and there would be no compromise on these sacrifices. The congregation also offered thanksgiving prayers over the success of the public agitation against the transfer of land to the Shrine Board. >From the Kashmir Observer From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 13:23:46 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 13:23:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Not to be outdone Message-ID: Tri Colour Hoisted Atop Akhnoor Mosque Jammu, July 04: A day after some locals set an example of communal harmony in Village Jorian of Akhnoor by chasing away miscreants, who had reportedly come to attack Muslim residents, a group of VHP and BJP activists today hoisted national flag atop the dome of local mosque. Sources said that some activists from right wing Hindu groups from adjoining villages broke open locks of Masjid in Jorian area this morning and hoisted tri-colour over the mosque dome ", local resident told nak news agency. Earlier on Wednesday local Hindus had set an example of communal harmony and brotherhood by saving the same mosque from a mob who had pelted stones on it in an attempt to damage it. According to reports, a group of protesters marched towards village Jorian and before local Hindus could stop them stormed the Masjid and hoisted the Indian national flag atop it. The activists belonged to VHP, locals said. The flag was however soon removed by the police personnel, Nak quoted villagers as saying. Protesters later clashed with the police sparking a clash which continued for an hour. Five policemen have been injured. Police cane charged and used tear gas to disperse protestors causing injuries to three protesters. Sub-Divisional Police Officer, Atul Sharma, when contacted said that police has registered a case against the people involved and they will be arrested very soon. He said we have deployed a heavy contingent of force in the village and a peace rally by the members of all communities will be taken out in the area for maintaining the peace and communal harmony. From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 13:30:15 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 13:30:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Op-ed from Daily Excelsior Message-ID: Running with hares, hunting with hounds MEN , MATTERS AND MEMORIES By M L Kotru Mehbooba Mufti, daughter of the former Chief Minister, Mufti Sayeed and President of the People's Democratic Party was very predictably, the first to claim "victory" for her party when the Kashmir Government virtually washed its hands off the messy land allotment in Baltal to the Amar Nath Yatra Board. It was her party's withdrawal from the Congress-led coalition State Government that had forced the hand both of the newly appointed Governor N.N. Vohra and Chief Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad. She could we well have taken credit for the immensely damaging consequence of the agitation, the massive public protests in the Valley, its principal ingredient, namely, bringing to the fore the largely dormant extremist Hurriyat faction of Syed Ali Shah Geelani and the less strident moderate faction led by Mirwaiz Farouq. What one saw on TV and read in newspapers of the emotion-charged protests which the two Hurriyat factions and assorted other separatist groups unleashed in the Valley for nearly a fortnight recalled to mind the missing holy hair agitation of an earlier era. The "mo-e-muqaddas" agitation was indeed a spontaneous popular outburtst against the sudden disappearance of the Prophet's hair from the Hazratbal Shrine which ended only when the holy hair made an equally dramatic reappearance. Attempts were made even then by religious bigots to give the crisis a communal colour but unsuccessfully. Unlike in the case of the Baltal forest land crisis, which acquired hundred percent communal overtones, although both the separatist and mainstream parties did their best to present it as a manifestation of Kashmiri Muslim sub-nationalism. They called it "nationalism" but any honest observer will tell you that it was nothing but an expression of Islamic sub-nationalism. The Baltal episode was projected day after day as an attack on the Muslim character of the Valley, the few proposed prefabricated camps for pilgrims on the disputed land dubbed as an attempt to put a permanent Hindu footprint in the inhospitable mountain range. It is good in the end though that the State Government, on the request of the Governor, ex-officio chairman of the Amarnath Shrine Board, has ended the so-called land deal and instead chosen to conduct the yatra itself as was the case before Farooq Abdullah set up the Shrine Board in the year 2000 with the Mufti later conveying his concurrence by taking over the cash rich Muslim waqf Board, for many long years headed by the late Sheikh Abdullah. Mufti did have differences with the former Governor, Retd. Lt. Gen. S.K. Sinha over the duration of the yatra, which he extended to two months from the earlier fortnight without giving much thought to its implications. But the die had been cast and Sinha, typically of him, decided just prior to its retirement to ask for some 50 hectares of forest land to put up prefabricated camps for pilgrims on the Baltal route. Mufti's man in the Government who was also the Forest Minister was the first to acquiesce, with the Cabinet including another PDP leader and the Deputy Chief Minister, Muzaffar Baig agreeing to the proposal at a Cabinet meeting. Once the protests started, Baig, rather disingenuously, claimed that he was blackmailed by some Jammu Ministers who threatened to block the construction of the Old Mughal Road to the Valley, a scheme long under implementation. The Mufti saw the crisis snowballing and promptly expressed his total disapproval of the forest and allocation. He must have been a worried man seeing the Hurriyat factions initiating a well-orchestrated Valley- wide agitation. Other separatist groups too had joined the fray and anti-India, pro-Azadi and pro-Pakistani slogans became the order of the day. Mufti who had in the past walked away with the moderate Hurriyat agenda had to act quickly which he did ultimately by withdrawing his party from the coalition. Mufti has a much greater stake in pursuing, at least for the record, what is called mainstream politics. His daughter after a recent visit to Pakistan has, of course, made it her business to flaunt the trip at her every public meeting and how she was assured there of a dignified (read autonomous) dispensation for the Valley. The father is still hopeful of having an imprint in Jammu but the party as a whole must remain heavily dependent on the Valley. And it is here that it feels threatened by a rejuvenated National Conference, the single largest party in the State Assembly. Umar Farooq's unequivocal support to the demand for abolition of the land allotment order may indeed have proved to be last straw on Mufti's back, forcing him to withdraw from the ruling coalition. The Mufti has by and large been running with hares and hunting with the hounds. I cannot fathom why he did not object to Farooq Abdullah's dispensation setting up the Amarnath Shrine Board when he was Chief Minister in 1983. Instead as I have earlier said, he set up a State Waqf Board as a sort of Muslim counterpart, installing his own men on it. Nor did he really restrain the former Governor, the head of the Amarnath Shrine Board, who over a five-year period took too many high-handed decisions. N.N. Vohra by comparison has a better chance of succeeding in bringing the various groups together. He has vast experience as a bureaucrat, having served for some year as the Home Secretary, as the Centre's interlocutor with Kashmiri groups etc. What he must realise quickly is that even the mainstream parties have lately started developing interests which may not necessarily be in accord with New Delhi's interests particularly with regard to the Valley. I am not letting out a secret, the fact is that every mainstream party is positioning itself to derive maximum advantage whenever the so-called autonomous regions come into existence. That is why one has in the recent past heard some of the pre-eminent mainstream politicians speaking of New Delhi having backtracked with the former Pakistani dictator, now civilian President-in-disgrace, Gen. Musharraf repeated his out-of-the-box plans to resolve the dispute on several occasions during the last three years. If you wish to see the Musharraf plan through the Valley politicians eyes it adds up to the creation of self-ruling autonomous region with a joint Indo-Pak mechanism in place. Asif Zardari too has spoken of autonomy when Mirwaiz Farouqcalled, on his recently but the major political Pakistani political voice, Nawaz Sharif's, has pooh-poohed the Musharraf plan. None of this though dampens the spirits of the myopic Valley leadership. It sees autonomy for the Valley as the next best to Azadi, a first step as it were. Some readers of this column have complained against my reference last week to the subsidy offered by the Union Government to Muslims going for Haj. The idea was not to hurt anybody's sentiments. I mentioned it asking the question why should Kashmiri Muslims object to the construction of temporary pre-fabricated huts for just two months to enable pilgrims to reach the Amarnath cave from Baltal. So far as the Haj subsidy goes many of my Muslim friends say it is un-Islamic for any Mussalman to accept subsidy of any kind, airfare, lodging included, to be able to perform Haj. Islam enjoins upon every Muslim to perform Haj at least once in his life time but my understanding of it tells me that performance of Haj is mandatory for those who can afford it; you can't borrow or steal to make the pilgrimage. I repeat, I had no intention to hurt any of my Muslim friend's feelings. Lastly, a word for the Governor N.N. Vohra. His roles, official and unofficial, involving close contacts with a wide spectrum of leadership in the State are too well known to be ignored. While this baggage which be brings with him to his new office can have its uses it should in no case serve as anything but a reference point. I am aware of his close contacts with some of the dramatis personae but these too need to be set aside for the present. What is needed just now is to resort the confidence of the people, both in the Valley and in Jammu. The aspirations of people in various geographical zones of the State need to be constantly addressed, not one at the cost of another but in real concert. I don't know as I write whether Ghulam Nabi Azad will be able to cobble together a working majority during the next few days but what concerns me is that the cobwebs of mistrust, assiduously woven by self-centred State politicians these past few years, are swept aside. In face to face conversations the Kashmiri politicians can be real charmers; only you can't be too sure what to make of those smiles they flash at you constantly. New Delhi's new man in Srinagar must above all make a mental note of the off-the-cuff remarks made the other day by Baitullah Mehsud, the Taliban chief of the NWRP and virtual ruler of Swat. As his Taliban continued to take postshots at the Pakistan establishment he made the interesting statement that he was not going to strike at the "beautiful city of Peshawar". "It's not Srinagar". The Pakistani militants and some of their Kashmiri counterparts based in that country haven't quite given up their Jihad. In the backdrop of the upcoming elections in the State; the yatra agitation should be deemed as a prelude aimed at arousing the local Muslims; it also provides ideal ground for the Jihadis to go in for a strike in the Valley. You must also remember that the political leadership in the Valley, bar the National Conference, is working overtime, overtly and covertly, for the Valley's separation from the rest of the State. That is the nearest they can come to Azadi. From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Jul 5 13:35:48 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 13:05:48 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Op-ed from Daily Excelsior In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Behen Sonia, truely great thoughts, as a good human at first sight and then as a journalist. Correct and truthful analysis of the events in the valley, appreciated very much of the honesty in thoughts. Thank you. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: "S. Jabbar" Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 1:31 pm Subject: [Reader-list] Op-ed from Daily Excelsior To: sarai list > Running with hares, hunting with hounds > MEN , MATTERS AND MEMORIES > > By M L Kotru > > Mehbooba Mufti, daughter of the former Chief Minister, Mufti > Sayeed and > President of the People's Democratic Party was very predictably, > the first > to claim "victory" for her party when the Kashmir Government virtually > washed its hands off the messy land allotment in Baltal to the > Amar Nath > Yatra Board. It was her party's withdrawal from the Congress-led > coalitionState Government that had forced the hand both of the > newly appointed > Governor N.N. Vohra and Chief Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad. > > She could we well have taken credit for the immensely damaging > consequenceof the agitation, the massive public protests in the > Valley, its principal > ingredient, namely, bringing to the fore the largely dormant extremist > Hurriyat faction of Syed Ali Shah Geelani and the less strident > moderatefaction led by Mirwaiz Farouq. What one saw on TV and read > in newspapers of > the emotion-charged protests which the two Hurriyat factions and > assortedother separatist groups unleashed in the Valley for nearly > a fortnight > recalled to mind the missing holy hair agitation of an earlier > era. The > "mo-e-muqaddas" agitation was indeed a spontaneous popular > outburtst against > the sudden disappearance of the Prophet's hair from the Hazratbal > Shrinewhich ended only when the holy hair made an equally dramatic > reappearance.Attempts were made even then by religious bigots to > give the crisis a > communal colour but unsuccessfully. > > Unlike in the case of the Baltal forest land crisis, which > acquired hundred > percent communal overtones, although both the separatist and > mainstreamparties did their best to present it as a manifestation > of Kashmiri Muslim > sub-nationalism. They called it "nationalism" but any honest > observer will > tell you that it was nothing but an expression of Islamic sub- > nationalism.The Baltal episode was projected day after day as an > attack on the Muslim > character of the Valley, the few proposed prefabricated camps for > pilgrimson the disputed land dubbed as an attempt to put a > permanent Hindu footprint > in the inhospitable mountain range. > > It is good in the end though that the State Government, on the > request of > the Governor, ex-officio chairman of the Amarnath Shrine Board, > has ended > the so-called land deal and instead chosen to conduct the yatra > itself as > was the case before Farooq Abdullah set up the Shrine Board in the > year 2000 > with the Mufti later conveying his concurrence by taking over the > cash rich > Muslim waqf Board, for many long years headed by the late Sheikh > Abdullah. > Mufti did have differences with the former Governor, Retd. Lt. > Gen. S.K. > Sinha over the duration of the yatra, which he extended to two > months from > the earlier fortnight without giving much thought to its > implications. But > the die had been cast and Sinha, typically of him, decided just > prior to its > retirement to ask for some 50 hectares of forest land to put up > prefabricated camps for pilgrims on the Baltal route. Mufti's man > in the > Government who was also the Forest Minister was the first to > acquiesce, with > the Cabinet including another PDP leader and the Deputy Chief > Minister,Muzaffar Baig agreeing to the proposal at a Cabinet > meeting. Once the > protests started, Baig, rather disingenuously, claimed that he was > blackmailed by some Jammu Ministers who threatened to block the > constructionof the Old Mughal Road to the Valley, a scheme long > under implementation. > The Mufti saw the crisis snowballing and promptly expressed his total > disapproval of the forest and allocation. He must have been a > worried man > seeing the Hurriyat factions initiating a well-orchestrated Valley- > wide > agitation. > > Other separatist groups too had joined the fray and anti-India, > pro-Azadi > and pro-Pakistani slogans became the order of the day. Mufti who > had in the > past walked away with the moderate Hurriyat agenda had to act > quickly which > he did ultimately by withdrawing his party from the coalition. > Mufti has a > much greater stake in pursuing, at least for the record, what is > calledmainstream politics. His daughter after a recent visit to > Pakistan has, of > course, made it her business to flaunt the trip at her every > public meeting > and how she was assured there of a dignified (read autonomous) > dispensationfor the Valley. > > The father is still hopeful of having an imprint in Jammu but the > party as a > whole must remain heavily dependent on the Valley. And it is here > that it > feels threatened by a rejuvenated National Conference, the single > largestparty in the State Assembly. Umar Farooq's unequivocal > support to the demand > for abolition of the land allotment order may indeed have proved > to be last > straw on Mufti's back, forcing him to withdraw from the ruling > coalition.The Mufti has by and large been running with hares and > hunting with the > hounds. > > I cannot fathom why he did not object to Farooq Abdullah's > dispensationsetting up the Amarnath Shrine Board when he was Chief > Minister in 1983. > Instead as I have earlier said, he set up a State Waqf Board as a > sort of > Muslim counterpart, installing his own men on it. Nor did he > really restrain > the former Governor, the head of the Amarnath Shrine Board, who > over a > five-year period took too many high-handed decisions. > > N.N. Vohra by comparison has a better chance of succeeding in > bringing the > various groups together. He has vast experience as a bureaucrat, > havingserved for some year as the Home Secretary, as the Centre's > interlocutorwith Kashmiri groups etc. What he must realise quickly > is that even the > mainstream parties have lately started developing interests which > may not > necessarily be in accord with New Delhi's interests particularly > with regard > to the Valley. > > I am not letting out a secret, the fact is that every mainstream > party is > positioning itself to derive maximum advantage whenever the so-called > autonomous regions come into existence. That is why one has in the > recentpast heard some of the pre-eminent mainstream politicians > speaking of New > Delhi having backtracked with the former Pakistani dictator, now > civilianPresident-in-disgrace, Gen. Musharraf repeated his out-of- > the-box plans to > resolve the dispute on several occasions during the last three years. > > If you wish to see the Musharraf plan through the Valley > politicians eyes it > adds up to the creation of self-ruling autonomous region with a joint > Indo-Pak mechanism in place. Asif Zardari too has spoken of > autonomy when > Mirwaiz Farouqcalled, on his recently but the major political > Pakistanipolitical voice, Nawaz Sharif's, has pooh-poohed the > Musharraf plan. > > None of this though dampens the spirits of the myopic Valley > leadership. It > sees autonomy for the Valley as the next best to Azadi, a first > step as it > were. > > Some readers of this column have complained against my reference > last week > to the subsidy offered by the Union Government to Muslims going > for Haj. The > idea was not to hurt anybody's sentiments. I mentioned it asking the > question why should Kashmiri Muslims object to the construction of > temporarypre-fabricated huts for just two months to enable > pilgrims to reach the > Amarnath cave from Baltal. So far as the Haj subsidy goes many of > my Muslim > friends say it is un-Islamic for any Mussalman to accept subsidy > of any > kind, airfare, lodging included, to be able to perform Haj. Islam > enjoinsupon every Muslim to perform Haj at least once in his life > time but my > understanding of it tells me that performance of Haj is mandatory > for those > who can afford it; you can't borrow or steal to make the > pilgrimage. I > repeat, I had no intention to hurt any of my Muslim friend's feelings. > > Lastly, a word for the Governor N.N. Vohra. His roles, official and > unofficial, involving close contacts with a wide spectrum of > leadership in > the State are too well known to be ignored. While this baggage > which be > brings with him to his new office can have its uses it should in > no case > serve as anything but a reference point. I am aware of his close > contactswith some of the dramatis personae but these too need to > be set aside for > the present. What is needed just now is to resort the confidence > of the > people, both in the Valley and in Jammu. > > The aspirations of people in various geographical zones of the > State need to > be constantly addressed, not one at the cost of another but in > real concert. > I don't know as I write whether Ghulam Nabi Azad will be able to > cobbletogether a working majority during the next few days but > what concerns me is > that the cobwebs of mistrust, assiduously woven by self-centred State > politicians these past few years, are swept aside. In face to face > conversations the Kashmiri politicians can be real charmers; only > you can't > be too sure what to make of those smiles they flash at you constantly. > > New Delhi's new man in Srinagar must above all make a mental note > of the > off-the-cuff remarks made the other day by Baitullah Mehsud, the > Talibanchief of the NWRP and virtual ruler of Swat. As his Taliban > continued to > take postshots at the Pakistan establishment he made the interesting > statement that he was not going to strike at the "beautiful city of > Peshawar". "It's not Srinagar". The Pakistani militants and some > of their > Kashmiri counterparts based in that country haven't quite given up > theirJihad. In the backdrop of the upcoming elections in the > State; the yatra > agitation should be deemed as a prelude aimed at arousing the > local Muslims; > it also provides ideal ground for the Jihadis to go in for a > strike in the > Valley. You must also remember that the political leadership in > the Valley, > bar the National Conference, is working overtime, overtly and > covertly, for > the Valley's separation from the rest of the State. That is the > nearest they > can come to Azadi. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Jul 5 13:42:20 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 13:12:20 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Behen Sonia, this is precisely why hindus dislike the self appointed muslim leaders who use religious places not for prayer but for confrontation with other followers of different faith. On friday, we always see the unruly mob getting infuriated by the leaders and provokes into show off the united strength on unleashing the mob fury. Even if the population is hardly 17 percent of one billion, on fridays it becomes a potent force of damage to national unity at the behest of self appointed leaders, unlike hindus who go to temple at the their choice on different day, too many deities and too many worshippers on too different shrines but altogether not enough to damage the nation. That is why the attitude of such muslim leaders who use the poor muslim on his /her faith to be anti-national are hated. regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: "S. Jabbar" Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 1:21 pm Subject: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal To: sarai list > Hurriyat Seizes Hazratbal Stage > > Srinagar, July 04, KONS: Brushing aside the Waqf Board¹s resistance, > Hurriyat leaders today took hold of the politically potent > Hazratbal stage > in a bid to make an unmistakable display of their public clout in > Kashmir.The shrine has been a centre of public movements for > decades, successively > and artfully used by major political figures, Sheikh Muhammad Abdullah > included, to retain their hold on the masses. > After falling into the militant lap during the early nineties, the > currentrulers of the state tried to de-politicize it by > overhauling its management > system by replacing the NC-backed Muslim Auqaf Trust with the > seeminglyneutral Waqf Board. > Both Mufti Muhammad Sayeed and Ghulam Nabi Azad have scrupulously > avoidedturning the shrine into a platform for themselves, perhaps > out of the > conviction that it was a double-edged sword which their opponents, > bothmainstream and separatist, could turn against them. > But the tide seemed to have turned today, despite the Waqf Board¹s > warningthe other day that Hazratbal would not be allowed to be > used for political > activities. > Filling in for their respective chairmen, senior Hurriyat leaders, > ShabirAhmad Shah and Muhammad Ashraf Sahrai, addressed the > congregation at > Hazratbal in defiance of the government-controlled Waqf Board¹s > ban on > political activity at the holy shrine. > Shah said that the people of the state were united and ready to > counter any > conspiracy. > Calling for a total boycott of the forthcoming assembly elections, > Shahsaidthat polls were not a solution to the Kashmir issue and > ³we cannot benefit > India by taking part in the polls in a betrayal of the sacrifices of > martyrs.² > ³Boycott is a powerful and peaceful weapon in the hands of the > people by > which they can counter Indian propaganda on Kashmir,² he said. > Referring to the land transfer issue, Shah said that it was not a > matter of > land alone but a question of the national identity of Kashmiris > for which > the entire state had marched with steeled breasts. > ³We are not against the yatra, nor do we want to harm the yatris, > and the > Kashmiris have proved it in the recent days,² he said. > ³It is unfortunate that Muslims are being targeted with violence > in Jammu, > and the police is a mute spectator, even though no yatri or > tourist suffered > as much as a scratch in the nine days of agitation in the valley,² > he said. > Attacking pro-India parties, Shah said that they had been exposed > and that > the people had realized that they were out to barter away Kashmiri > land.³In the present circumstances, people should take timely and > correctdecisions, as even a minor mistake can prove to be a heavy > burden on coming > generations,² he said. > Condemning the aggressive designs of the extremist Hindu parties, > he said > that they had begun to serve their ends by giving communal colour > to even > peaceful issues. > ³They are spawning hatred in the name of religion. The people of > Jammu and > Kashmir will have to defeat their plots,² he said. > Geelani¹s right hand man, Muhammad Ashraf Sahrai, said that > Kashmiris would > complete the mission of the martyrs as they had offered immense > sacrificesduring the ongoing struggle and there would be no > compromise on these > sacrifices. > The congregation also offered thanksgiving prayers over the > success of the > public agitation against the transfer of land to the Shrine Board. > > From the Kashmir Observer > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 14:29:41 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 14:29:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amarnath row reignites Azadi sentiments In-Reply-To: <47e122a70807040733k378dced3w9c4fff488ff89595@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030803x4bec38cer3b90a7001304f956@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807031101uc92396eoe35ae3e201ae031c@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70807040733k378dced3w9c4fff488ff89595@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70807050159p7c8cf91du994eac40442e6b6f@mail.gmail.com> dear pawan ji it looks u are interested in the GRASS only i too once had a deep facination of the grass, but time move and i see there are other things too which can intoxicate love On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 8:03 PM, inder salim wrote: > now POLITICALLY, i see, THERE IS A DEEP MISTRUST BETWEEN HINDUS AND > MUSLIMS OF JAMMU AND KASHMIR AND YET THERE IS SO MUCH OF TRADE, > FRIENDSHIP AND HARMONEY AT THE GRASS ROOT LEVEL...but politics seems > to win in the ends, sadly.... > > now since this sharp divide has come to the fore, i find this an > opportunity to doubt the existence of the God.... i dont personally > want a debate on that.... but we can atleast behaves like SCEPTICS... > that might perhaps give us a chance to realize the minds of saints > poets and wise people in the past and in the present...if that had not > happened they too might not have been there..... even prophets and > gods have come to to earth because they had the courage to doubt ... > > i guess it is this doubt that gives us the idea of universal love.... > strong belief in this or that might finally harm our own undertanding > of the self... > > choice is ours > > with love > inder salim > > > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 11:31 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> And the Jammu news doesnt appeal to the born slaves. >> >> On 7/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >>> >>> Dear Shivam, >>> >>> Thank you for your reports from the valley. They help us get a >>> clearer image of the situation and what people are thinking and saying. >>> >>> best >>> >>> Shuddha >>> On 03-Jul-08, at 8:33 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >>> >>> > [As published this morning] >>> > >>> > >>> > Amarnath row reignites azadi sentiment >>> > >>> > Shivam Vij / Srinagar >>> > Sakaal Times / 3 July >>> > http://epaper.sakaaltimes.com >>> > >>> > >>> > The writing on the wall is clear: The Kashmiri demand for independence >>> > from India is not over yet. Separatist leaders and commoners alike >>> > have hailed the withdrawal of the land transfer order as the victory >>> > of the Kashmiri people and called to revitalise the azadi movement. >>> > >>> > This is clearly a turning point in the 20-year-old militant struggle. >>> > There is also talk of boycotting the coming assembly polls and >>> > reunification of the two factions of the Hurriyat Conference. The mood >>> > was reflected in every local daily's frontpage headlines. PEOPLE WIN, >>> > said Greater Kashmir. Kashmir Savours Victory, said the Kashmir >>> > Observer. Kashmir win, said Amroze Kashmir. VICTORY! said Etalaat. >>> > People win, Order revoked, said Kashmir Monitor. >>> > >>> > The emphasis that it was a people's agitation rather than one of >>> > leaders is shared by everyone. The sentiment is shared by every taxi >>> > driver, shopkeeper, houseboat-owner, journalist — too widespread >>> > to be >>> > brushed away as anybody's political gimmick. The agitation was lead by >>> > the ACALT committee which had, apart from Hurriyat leaders, apolitical >>> > religious leaders, representatives from trade and transporters' >>> > organisation's, the Kashmir Chambers of Commerce and the Bar Council. >>> > >>> > Vehement support was given by the Valley's Sikhs and most Kashmiri >>> > Pandit organisations as well. The biggest winner is Hurriyat leader >>> > Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who was the first to begin mobilising the >>> > public with a signature campaign. In a press conference on Wednesday, >>> > he emphasised: "This punctures New Delhi's theory that our movement is >>> > standing on Pakistani support," he said, adding, "did you see a single >>> > agitator using violence?" "The movement lives on in the hearts and >>> > minds of the people," he told Sakaal Times. >>> > >>> > The relatively smooth rule of the PDP-Congress coalition and the >>> > decline in militancy had led observers to believe that people's >>> > participation in polls could increase. "Nobody will vote now," said >>> > Etalaat editor Zahiruddin. In fact NC's Omar Abdullah is believed to >>> > have said as much to the NSA in his meeting with him in Delhi. >>> > >>> > "Mainstream politicians in the Valley who believed the movement was on >>> > its deathbed have got a rude jolt," he said. "This is very unpleasant >>> > for the Indian government and intelligence agencies who were already >>> > talking of a postconflict scenario," says human rights activist Parvez >>> > Imroz. >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>> Raqs Media Collective >>> shuddha at sarai.net >>> www.sarai.net >>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Jul 5 15:18:34 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 14:48:34 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Amarnath row reignites Azadi sentiments In-Reply-To: <47e122a70807050159p7c8cf91du994eac40442e6b6f@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030803x4bec38cer3b90a7001304f956@mail.gmail.com> <"DB 7AFB5C-645F-4D1C-BF0D-129C5A522AE3"@sarai.net> <"6b79f1a70807031101uc92396eoe3 5ae3e201ae031c"@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70807040733k378dced3w9c4fff488ff89595@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70807050159p7c8cf91du994eac40442e6b6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Inder Salim, What is God? For my perception, limited as it is, God isgood in every living beings, in thoughts, actions, and deeds, all good in all living beings is GOD to society, any acts, thoughts and deeds which are not for common good of all living beings are acts of devilish, as such there is only one GOD, different humans call him , pray to him in their percieved form, as Ram, Krishna , Allah , as Christ. Sabka malik ek hai. Unfortunately, as technology developed, humans have found new ways to encash every aspect of life in to material wealth, forgetting that though money and wealth are important, it is not the only important asset in life. A human who can develop alround in material, intellectual and spiritual aspect will not have any confusion about GOD, as he will not find god in any temple, masjid or in a church where god is worshipped, it is only form that is worshipped in these places, where it is having no life of its own. Living beings need support for their mind and soul, emotional, spiritual and material, when all of us respond in any capacity to that need of others that is divine work. And let me assure you there are no separate heaven and hell, devatha and devils, they are all in our thoughts, acts and deeds, all good acts are divine, all evil acts that hurt others are devilish.! We make heaven or hell on this planet by our good or bad acts and make others live in hell or heaven. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: inder salim Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 2:30 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amarnath row reignites Azadi sentiments To: reader-list at sarai.net > dear pawan ji > > it looks u are interested in the GRASS only > > i too once had a deep facination of the grass, but time move and i see > there are other things too which can intoxicate > > love > > On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 8:03 PM, inder salim > wrote:> now POLITICALLY, i see, THERE IS A DEEP MISTRUST BETWEEN > HINDUS AND > > MUSLIMS OF JAMMU AND KASHMIR AND YET THERE IS SO MUCH OF TRADE, > > FRIENDSHIP AND HARMONEY AT THE GRASS ROOT LEVEL...but politics seems > > to win in the ends, sadly.... > > > > now since this sharp divide has come to the fore, i find this an > > opportunity to doubt the existence of the God.... i dont personally > > want a debate on that.... but we can atleast behaves like > SCEPTICS...> that might perhaps give us a chance to realize the > minds of saints > > poets and wise people in the past and in the present...if that > had not > > happened they too might not have been there..... even prophets and > > gods have come to to earth because they had the courage to doubt ... > > > > i guess it is this doubt that gives us the idea of universal > love....> strong belief in this or that might finally harm our own > undertanding> of the self... > > > > choice is ours > > > > with love > > inder salim > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 11:31 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > >> And the Jammu news doesnt appeal to the born slaves. > >> > >> On 7/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >>> > >>> Dear Shivam, > >>> > >>> Thank you for your reports from the valley. They help us get a > >>> clearer image of the situation and what people are thinking > and saying. > >>> > >>> best > >>> > >>> Shuddha > >>> On 03-Jul-08, at 8:33 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > >>> > >>> > [As published this morning] > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Amarnath row reignites azadi sentiment > >>> > > >>> > Shivam Vij / Srinagar > >>> > Sakaal Times / 3 July > >>> > http://epaper.sakaaltimes.com > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > The writing on the wall is clear: The Kashmiri demand for > independence>>> > from India is not over yet. Separatist leaders > and commoners alike > >>> > have hailed the withdrawal of the land transfer order as the > victory>>> > of the Kashmiri people and called to revitalise the > azadi movement. > >>> > > >>> > This is clearly a turning point in the 20-year-old militant > struggle.>>> > There is also talk of boycotting the coming > assembly polls and > >>> > reunification of the two factions of the Hurriyat > Conference. The mood > >>> > was reflected in every local daily's frontpage headlines. > PEOPLE WIN, > >>> > said Greater Kashmir. Kashmir Savours Victory, said the Kashmir > >>> > Observer. Kashmir win, said Amroze Kashmir. VICTORY! said > Etalaat.>>> > People win, Order revoked, said Kashmir Monitor. > >>> > > >>> > The emphasis that it was a people's agitation rather than > one of > >>> > leaders is shared by everyone. The sentiment is shared by > every taxi > >>> > driver, shopkeeper, houseboat-owner, journalist — too widespread > >>> > to be > >>> > brushed away as anybody's political gimmick. The agitation > was lead by > >>> > the ACALT committee which had, apart from Hurriyat leaders, > apolitical>>> > religious leaders, representatives from trade and > transporters'>>> > organisation's, the Kashmir Chambers of > Commerce and the Bar Council. > >>> > > >>> > Vehement support was given by the Valley's Sikhs and most > Kashmiri>>> > Pandit organisations as well. The biggest winner is > Hurriyat leader > >>> > Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who was the first to begin mobilising the > >>> > public with a signature campaign. In a press conference on > Wednesday,>>> > he emphasised: "This punctures New Delhi's theory > that our movement is > >>> > standing on Pakistani support," he said, adding, "did you > see a single > >>> > agitator using violence?" "The movement lives on in the > hearts and > >>> > minds of the people," he told Sakaal Times. > >>> > > >>> > The relatively smooth rule of the PDP-Congress coalition and the > >>> > decline in militancy had led observers to believe that people's > >>> > participation in polls could increase. "Nobody will vote > now," said > >>> > Etalaat editor Zahiruddin. In fact NC's Omar Abdullah is > believed to > >>> > have said as much to the NSA in his meeting with him in Delhi. > >>> > > >>> > "Mainstream politicians in the Valley who believed the > movement was on > >>> > its deathbed have got a rude jolt," he said. "This is very > unpleasant>>> > for the Indian government and intelligence > agencies who were already > >>> > talking of a postconflict scenario," says human rights > activist Parvez > >>> > Imroz. > >>> > _________________________________________ > >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with>>> > subscribe in the subject header. > >>> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> > List archive: > >>> > >>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS > >>> Raqs Media Collective > >>> shuddha at sarai.net > >>> www.sarai.net > >>> www.raqsmediacollective.net > >>> > >>> > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list>>> List archive: > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Jul 5 15:53:58 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 15:23:58 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue In-Reply-To: <486E8090.90200@gmail.com> References: <98f331e00806301826g1af66e90pacaacf4724a45a50@mail.gmail.com> <"4 8 6A2C87.8080008"@gmail.com> <486B6D4B.2000802@gmail.com> <486D3AAC.1010807@gmail.com> <486E8090.90200@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Tapas, your write up made very interesting read, but alas, for me being hindu is way of life, in this way of life, there is place for all other ways of life, being an athiest is also okay in this way of life just as a ritualist life for some one, for many rituals are just rituals with out even knowing the reasons for the rituals, but even that is alright in hindu way of life. My mother is this part of continent, I rever it as my haven, without any quotes, I feel we can make it haven for all good, as laws of land are supreme if implemented properly, sternly without fear or favour. Any one in governance when he takes oath of governance without fear or favour time and again it is proved that in free India, sixty years of governance has been with fear and favours to the caste, faith and region, it is then not democratic rule of law. All of us have friends who may follow different ways of worship, lifestyles or beliefs but what matters is huamne approach to life, compassionate, considerate and responsive to all in our lives. Rule of laws which should not be, never be discriminative in sharing and caring every citizen irrespective of his color, faith, region and caste can make India heavenon earth. As to RSS, no doubt even that organisation is now seeing the winds of changes in societal life, chinthan baitaks of austere meetings are much comfortable in holding , ministers and every one are no more in the same platform in common seating arrangements, as some are becoming more equal than others in seating arrangements.! But basically, when nation was divided on the faith of being a nation for muslims, it is logical that muslims have to get relocated in the nation that they wanted. ? And just for the sake of arguments, hindus you say, are in majority, but the truth of the matter is hindu society after british rule is most divided society, thanks to the game of caste feel of the society. Only the movement of pride united the hindu society against the barbaric riots of the fanatics, acknowleding the fact that riots bring miseries to all even if they are muslims. ? As of today, it is the turn of united muslims who are now divided as shias, sunnis, and one can count another half a dozen denomination of the divisive sects. But for me basically, all the communes united in the nation, makes the nation a force to reckon with which none dare to violate even in their dreams. All sections of the society need to be united as threads of a stron rope that is our nation, just as all sections of thesociety shall be governed fairly without fear or favour to any segment. Only then we can say that we are successful in democratic life of live and let live. That comes only with lot more tolerence and patience. Shraddha and saburi, that is faith in ourselves to be good, patience in each of us to be tolerent of each other is the need of the hour to the nation. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tapas Ray Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 1:27 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue To: sarai list > Radhika, > > Your post touches on important issues. I will address the most > important > one - indeed, the core issue - after getting the others out of the > way. > 1. It seems to me that if we are to be proud to be anything, it > should > be our common humanity, and not a particular religion, caste, > language, > ethnicity, etc. Because, this kind of "pride" leads to bloody > conflict > all the time. Religious pride and tolerance may coexist in you, > but this > is not universally true. > > It is certainly not true that every Hindu hates Muslims, but my > experience tells me that some in fact do. And I would be > interested in > knowing how many riots have been initiated by Muslims rampaging > after > Friday prayers, and what percentage of all riots these represent. > > 2. Since you are aware that the "pseudo-seculars" also play > identity > politics like the BJP, though to a different degree and in a > different > style, I think you will agree that their best interest lies in > appeasing > the majority community first and foremost, and only after that, > the > minorities. In fact, this is what they have been seen to do in > practice. > If you remember, the Babri demolition took place when Congress was > running the government with Narasimha Rao as Prime Minister. So, > it is > wrong to say that "pseudos" like Manmohan Singh appease only > Muslims. > That is, and has to be, their second priority. > > 3. I do not see the connection you seem to make between being a > proud > but tolerant Hindu, on the one hand, and your anger at the all- > round > misery and discontent, on the other. Isn't this anger the natural > reaction of anyone who has any humanity left in her/him? Has the > party > that is essentially based on Hindu pride made the slightest > effort, in > the country when it ran the national government, or any of the > states it > has ruled, to bring about any fundamental change that would help > eliminate the sufferings and discontent? > > 4. As for the RSS, I would not call it a socio-cultural > organisation as > long as it has its members in the BJP at all levels - from the > grassroots to the party's top leadership, which govern whenever > and > wherever the BJP is in power. It is a full-fledged political > organisation. > 5. It goes without saying, as you have pointed out, that true > democracy > must address the needs of every citizen. Since the "pseudos" play > identity politics, they are clearly unable to live up to this > ideal. But > can the BJP do it, when its ideology is constructed around the > idea of > citizenship based on religion? Is religion-based consolidation of > Hindus > - which you support - consistent with liberal democracy? I am > going to > argue that the very logic of the Parivar's ideology disempowers > both > Hindus and Muslims, and makes violence an inalienable part of itself. > > Since Hindus enjoy a numerical majority in India, the Parivar > equates > its Hindutva ideology with nationalism. But this is majoritarian > thinking, not democratic thinking. Also, it is against our > constitution. > That little document views citizenship as something that is not > related > to any particular identity, such as religious and ethnic, and the > political preferences of the citizen as being contingent upon > various > factors that affect her/his life. > > Now, if religious, ethnic, and other kinds of identity determine > these > preferences, there can be little scope for the citizen to vote > outside > the Hindu "bloc". This acceptance of an immutable bloc means > giving up > all political choice. This, in turn, means the citizen - even a > Hindu - > is stripped of her/his political agency, thus of all rights. In > this > scheme of things, (s)he has some privileges as a member of the > majority > community, but no rights as a citizen of India. > > On the other hand, Muslims and other minorities have neither > rights, nor > privileges in this scheme, unless the Hindu majority graciously > throws a > few tidbits their way. Now, if these minorities, out of sheer > bloodymindedness, insist on having a few rights, what are the > things > they can do? Either get out of the country - which the uncles, > aunts, > nephews and nieces in the Parivar always suggest as the best way - > or, > if they refuse to do that out of their inborn perversity, try to > carve > their own country out of Indian territory. If they are willing to > learn > from the Parivar, this new country can run on the same principles > as > "mother" India, who continues to be the Parivar's possession, as > any > good wife should, after giving birth to this monster baby. > > But then, neither option can be acceptable to both communities at > the > same time. The minorities don't want to get out, unfortunately. > Which is > why the Parivar provides a little encouragement now and then. Not > only > in deed but also in word. One hears things like, ‘‘Jâo Pâkistân yâ > kabristân’’ (‘‘Go to Pakistan or to the graveyard’’), or ‘‘Let > Muslims > understand that their real safety lies in the goodwill of the > majority’’. In this, at least, no one can accuse the Parivar of > leaving > a gap between word and deed. > > It may be that they don't want to go to Pakistan, about which they > have > probably heard all kinds of bad things. So they may want their own > country. But which family would let any monster child cut a little > flesh > out of its Bahus's body? > > Result: the get-out option will be resisted by the minorities, and > the > carve-out option by the Hindu majority. Thus, the only thing that > can > possibly mediate between Hindus and Muslims (and other minorities) > in > this scenario is violence. > > Tapas > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From nityajacob at yahoo.com Sat Jul 5 17:37:25 2008 From: nityajacob at yahoo.com (Nitya Jacob) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 05:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Construction of bridge over Neela hauz, Vasant Kunj Message-ID: <101064.47020.qm@web30807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear all The PWD through its contractor Valecha Construction Limited is constructing a bridge over the Neela Hauz in Vasant Kunj. The construction began about a month ago and the contractor has been filling parts of the hauz, which is an old water body in south Delhi, with mud and rocks, to provide the foundations for the bridge. He claims the mud and rocks will be removed once the flyover is constructed, but in the meantime, they will be cause immense damage to the pond. The pond is critical to maintaining water levels in south Delhi, especially the Mehrauli block, where the water table has fallen the fastest, and is the most critical block in the whole of Delhi. You can imagine the effect on the water table of thousands of illegal tubewells, installed in homes and farm houses, and there are only a few such natural water bodies in the region that have helped maintain it. If this is destroyed or harmed during construction of the bridge, it will greatly affect the availability of water in the entire locality. Further, this area is rocky and at the tail end of the Aravali hills. The water table has to be maintained to preserve the greenery of the region, which is a designated forest area by DDA. It is also the last patch of forest left in the region as the DDA has converted the entire forest area near Vasant Vihar into malls and institutional land. This forest is sustained on the water table, and in turn helps to keep the water table as a reasonable level. It is essential for maintaining the climate of the region as well as stopping the desertification of Delhi. I am writing to ask you to visit the place and support us in monitoring the project to ensure that the government restores the hauz after the bridge is built. We are NOT opposed to the construction of the bridge, but want the government to fulfil its promises of removing the mud and rocks dumped in the hauz to facilitate construction of the bridge. Can you please call me and I can help you visit the place when its convenient to you. We are planning to set up a citizens' group to monitor the construction and ensure the contractor and the government do what they have promised in restoring the hauz. Regards Nitya From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 18:19:29 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 08:49:29 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <486F6DD9.2090209@gmail.com> I thank Sonia from bringing this perspective into the conversation. Looks like she isn't a terrorist after all. What a surprise! Tapas S. Jabbar wrote: > I think you may want to ask why it was necessary to begin a victory rally > from a religious place and how any of us would have reacted if Advani were > to embark on another 'victory' rally from Somnath or Ayodhya. These > so-called victory rallies will only add fuel to the Jammu-Kashmir/ > Hindu-Muslim conflagration. > > Hazrat Bal and the Jama Masjid are not neutral sites and have been > politically charged ever since the 1930s when the Quit Kashmir movement was > launched against the Maharaja. What must have started off as an equally > 'peaceful' gathering turned violent and a man was killed. That was reason > enough for mass rioting. You may be aware of the siege of Hazrat Bal in the > early '90s or for that matter the siege of Charar e-Sharif in '95 or for > that matter the Golden Temple in the '80s. > > The Hurriyat is not unaware that the state cannot risk a religious site > becoming another site of contestation. It would try and control what in all > likelihood would turn into yet another communally charged and violent event. > And yet it decided to go ahead. The stakes are high and I really don't > think anyone is above using religion to further their political ends. > --sj > From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Jul 5 19:45:54 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 19:15:54 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured In-Reply-To: <486F6DD9.2090209@gmail.com> References: <486F6DD9.2090209@gmail.com> Message-ID: Tapas, terrorists need not necessarily carry muslim names, even her namesake is chairperson of the UPA, but is terrorising the entire leadership of her party? Just for amusing thoughts. ! And let is be reinforced again India has seen more humane muslims in its freedom struggle and in free India, who served in all walks of life. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tapas Ray Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 6:19 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured To: sarai list > I thank Sonia from bringing this perspective into the > conversation. > Looks like she isn't a terrorist after all. What a surprise! > > Tapas > > > S. Jabbar wrote: > > I think you may want to ask why it was necessary to begin a > victory rally > > from a religious place and how any of us would have reacted if > Advani were > > to embark on another 'victory' rally from Somnath or Ayodhya. These > > so-called victory rallies will only add fuel to the Jammu-Kashmir/ > > Hindu-Muslim conflagration. > > > > Hazrat Bal and the Jama Masjid are not neutral sites and have been > > politically charged ever since the 1930s when the Quit Kashmir > movement was > > launched against the Maharaja. What must have started off as an > equally> 'peaceful' gathering turned violent and a man was killed. > That was reason > > enough for mass rioting. You may be aware of the siege of > Hazrat Bal in the > > early '90s or for that matter the siege of Charar e-Sharif in > '95 or for > > that matter the Golden Temple in the '80s. > > > > The Hurriyat is not unaware that the state cannot risk a > religious site > > becoming another site of contestation. It would try and control > what in all > > likelihood would turn into yet another communally charged and > violent event. > > And yet it decided to go ahead. The stakes are high and I > really don't > > think anyone is above using religion to further their political > ends.> --sj > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 21:48:37 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 12:18:37 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Amaranth Land Issue] Message-ID: <486F9EDD.1070901@gmail.com> PS: Radhika, Please see what you wrote yourself: radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > when nation was divided on the faith of being a nation for muslims, it > is logical that muslims have to get relocated in the nation that they > wanted. ? > -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:46:36 -0400 From: Tapas Ray Radhika, Here's how I see things. I agree if you mean that the parties you call "pseudo-secular" use communal sentiments for narrow political gain. However, they do this not just with religion but also with other identity factors like language, ethnicity, and caste, according to taste. This sets them apart from the BJP to some extent. But only to some extent, because I think the BJP too would not, and probably does not, give up a chance to use those other identities. It is probably just a question of degree. However, this does not put the BJP, and the Parivar in general, in the same category as those parties, because unlike those, these are exclusionary, supremacist, feed on anti-minority paranoia, have institutionalised violence (think of the RSS shakhas), and used it on a scale probably not reached by the "pseudo-seculars". The BJP (as a representative of the Parivar) may or may not have been better or worse than the "pseudo-seculars" in specific instances of governance, but even a "better performance", however defined, can never be its claim to power as long as the above are true. Last but not the least, before thinking about Lalbahadur Shastri's death, etc., we should recall the Gandhi assassination, which we tend to forget but never should. Unless the BJP and the Parivar openly admit that their role has been extremely harmful for the country, and give up their Hindutva ideology in both theory and practice, they will continue to be an anomaly in our democratic system. Tapas radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > Very correct, those who say they are secular are actually seen very communal in day to day governance, but it is funny that if BJP unites all in the nation it is called communal just because united hindu votes would be more of potent force. ? > > As to administration of religious places it should be noted that rich funds of dioceses of any denomination of christian faith has absolutely no control as how it is used. recent news of about the priest of an evangelist was bashed up by his own commune in kerala, accounts were asked for 1499 crores misused by him. This news appeared in all the print but not in visual media. ! > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tapas Ray >> Radhika, >> >> You did not get my point. I was saying exactly the opposite of >> what you >> thought I was saying. My point was that Prakash Ray should be the >> last >> person to say that the government of J&K ought to get out of the >> wakf >> board/temple trust business. >> >> But I am not surprised, because he has done similar things in the >> past - >> spoken fiery words against Modi's "right-wing economic policies" >> if I >> remember correctly, while the party he is always defending, namely >> CPI(M), has been condemned on that very issue in the state it >> rules, >> i.e., West Bengal. >> >> On the present issue, he is suggesting that the J&K government get >> out >> of the wakfs and temple trusts, even though in West Bengal a >> minister >> heads the wakf board, and that board was the focus of an >> investigation >> into a massive scandal a few years ago, involving CPI(M) people. >> You >> will see this if you read the news items I copied below my post. >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> Tapas From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 22:22:25 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 22:22:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Behen Radhika, Which Hindus dislike self-appointed Muslim leaders? Yourself, some others, all 800 plus million in this country? Which Hindus dislike self-appointed Hindu leaders? For instance, Togadia and Singhal are all self-appointed leaders of something they call the VHP or World Hindu Organisation. Do they represent all Hindus across the globe (I don't think any of my neighbours or friends were asked to vote) or do all Hindus like these self-appointed Hindu leaders just because they happen not to be Muslim? In which case what percentage of the 800+ million do you reckon? And conversely do all Muslims therefore like self-appointed Muslim leaders? What percent of Muslims dislike self-appointed Muslim leaders or for that matter self-appointed Zoroastrian, Manichean or Nath sadhu leaders? Do you see where my logic is leading? To nowhere, to a dead-end, at best to cuckoo land. I'm afraid since it mirrors yours you can draw conclusions about how you sound to others. Now you are entitled to your opinions, but it bothers me when people can't come up with examples of their own and choose to fire their cannons off my shoulder. By your logic if the 133 million Muslims of India went on a rampage every Friday this country would, no doubt, be beset by 'action-reactions' every weekend. I know I goofed off yesterday, didn't attend Jumma namaz, snoozed the afternoon off instead and then watched Wimbledon all evening (where our only female tennis star was absent, no doubt because she was out burning down a tennis stadium after Friday prayers), but when it came to the news this morning, the papers only had stories of rampaging Hindu mobs in Indore and in Jammu. In fact, in Indore, the mob surrounded a Hindu jeweler and bullied him to the point where he poured kerosene on himself and set himself alight. Scanning the papers I was convinced it was the beasts who ran out after Friday prayers and lynched him, but no, they were not Salims, Hanifs or Aslams but mini Rajs, Bals, Narendras and Lal Krishnas, bless their little souls. Yesterday's HT had an interesting layout in their the edit page, and I'd urge people to look at it There were 2 unrelated photographs, but both as uncannily similar and different as they can get. One had three or four small Chinese kids (5 or 6 yr olds) in a provincial school in China. The blurb explained: these were special sports schools in the provinces (not just the metropolises, mind you), geared to train children to excel in sports. This photo showed potential Olympic star gymnasts stretching their limbs. One was bent down, two stretched their arms sky high. The other photograph needed no blurb. It is something we see every other day splashed across Indian newspapers: 3 old, bearded men, vermillion smeared across their foreheads, mouths contorted into a ghastly O, hands raised to the sky-- no, no, not doing gymnastics, but in outrage about their religious rights. Now you can switch the costume, replace the tika with a green cap or a turban and lo! You have the picture of our great democracy and people's right to get outraged, and the right to burn shops, beat up passers by, pelt stones, close down highways and schools and generally have the time of their lives whether it is about a cartoon or whether it is a canvas, a mosque, gurudwara or a temple.... And all of us tearing our hair out & wasting our time & energy on these useless debates... In the meanwhile there will be other countries where children will wake up after a good night's sleep, eat a full breakfast, drink clean water, have access to toilets and showers, wear clean clothes, go to school, study, and then go to train to become the best a human being can become, whether in the arts or sciences or sport. Best sj On 7/5/08 1:42 PM, "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" wrote: > Behen Sonia, > > this is precisely why hindus dislike the self appointed muslim leaders who > use religious places not for prayer but for confrontation with other followers > of different faith. On friday, we always see the unruly mob getting infuriated > by the leaders and provokes into show off the united strength on unleashing > the mob fury. Even if the population is hardly 17 percent of one billion, on > fridays it becomes a potent force of damage to national unity at the behest of > self appointed leaders, unlike hindus who go to temple at the their choice on > different day, too many deities and too many worshippers on too different > shrines but altogether not enough to damage the nation. That is why the > attitude of such muslim leaders who use the poor muslim on his /her faith to > be anti-national are hated. > > regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "S. Jabbar" > Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 1:21 pm > Subject: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal > To: sarai list > >> Hurriyat Seizes Hazratbal Stage >> >> Srinagar, July 04, KONS: Brushing aside the Waqf Board¹s resistance, >> Hurriyat leaders today took hold of the politically potent >> Hazratbal stage >> in a bid to make an unmistakable display of their public clout in >> Kashmir.The shrine has been a centre of public movements for >> decades, successively >> and artfully used by major political figures, Sheikh Muhammad Abdullah >> included, to retain their hold on the masses. >> After falling into the militant lap during the early nineties, the >> currentrulers of the state tried to de-politicize it by >> overhauling its management >> system by replacing the NC-backed Muslim Auqaf Trust with the >> seeminglyneutral Waqf Board. >> Both Mufti Muhammad Sayeed and Ghulam Nabi Azad have scrupulously >> avoidedturning the shrine into a platform for themselves, perhaps >> out of the >> conviction that it was a double-edged sword which their opponents, >> bothmainstream and separatist, could turn against them. >> But the tide seemed to have turned today, despite the Waqf Board¹s >> warningthe other day that Hazratbal would not be allowed to be >> used for political >> activities. >> Filling in for their respective chairmen, senior Hurriyat leaders, >> ShabirAhmad Shah and Muhammad Ashraf Sahrai, addressed the >> congregation at >> Hazratbal in defiance of the government-controlled Waqf Board¹s >> ban on >> political activity at the holy shrine. >> Shah said that the people of the state were united and ready to >> counter any >> conspiracy. >> Calling for a total boycott of the forthcoming assembly elections, >> Shahsaidthat polls were not a solution to the Kashmir issue and >> ³we cannot benefit >> India by taking part in the polls in a betrayal of the sacrifices of >> martyrs.² >> ³Boycott is a powerful and peaceful weapon in the hands of the >> people by >> which they can counter Indian propaganda on Kashmir,² he said. >> Referring to the land transfer issue, Shah said that it was not a >> matter of >> land alone but a question of the national identity of Kashmiris >> for which >> the entire state had marched with steeled breasts. >> ³We are not against the yatra, nor do we want to harm the yatris, >> and the >> Kashmiris have proved it in the recent days,² he said. >> ³It is unfortunate that Muslims are being targeted with violence >> in Jammu, >> and the police is a mute spectator, even though no yatri or >> tourist suffered >> as much as a scratch in the nine days of agitation in the valley,² >> he said. >> Attacking pro-India parties, Shah said that they had been exposed >> and that >> the people had realized that they were out to barter away Kashmiri >> land.³In the present circumstances, people should take timely and >> correctdecisions, as even a minor mistake can prove to be a heavy >> burden on coming >> generations,² he said. >> Condemning the aggressive designs of the extremist Hindu parties, >> he said >> that they had begun to serve their ends by giving communal colour >> to even >> peaceful issues. >> ³They are spawning hatred in the name of religion. The people of >> Jammu and >> Kashmir will have to defeat their plots,² he said. >> Geelani¹s right hand man, Muhammad Ashraf Sahrai, said that >> Kashmiris would >> complete the mission of the martyrs as they had offered immense >> sacrificesduring the ongoing struggle and there would be no >> compromise on these >> sacrifices. >> The congregation also offered thanksgiving prayers over the >> success of the >> public agitation against the transfer of land to the Shrine Board. >> >> From the Kashmir Observer >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> list >> List archive: From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Sat Jul 5 23:22:42 2008 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 10:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <734334.49127.qm@web53607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> (sorry for repost..it bounced last time for some reason) I wonder why we don't want to get out of their ideological comfort zones. Is it because we are too old or we are too young? On one side there are people who will argue there was nothing communal in the resistance to the so called "disturbing of demographic balance" and on other side we have people who have great disdain for covertly communal pseudo seculars but cant acknowledge the overtly communal BJP etc. I think this is because our world views and our politics hinge on some assumptions and we think we will disintegrate if we have to reconcile it with something contrary to that assumption.So, A group believes that the Muslims are incapable of being communal and the other group believes that all Hindu communalism is just a reaction to Muslim communalism. Are we only capable of thinking in binaries? I normally desist from discussing people but I think it is extremely important to understand the psychology at work here.It also doesn't help that the binary people will invariably be more passionate about their cause than the non-binary ones; and these people are making peaceful coexistence in India difficult. Now,RSS-BJP has always had this concept of Hindu India.There are factions of it which have a communal product to sell,all over India,wherever it can find any takers.If we refuse to acknowledge the inherent communalism in some of the politics of this issue,we are basically opening up a market for BJP in which they have a monopoly. Finally,I can't thank Sonia Jabbar enough for her posts to this list.I admit I am biased towards people who can see without having to rely on ideological lenses. --- On Sat, 7/5/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > From: S. Jabbar > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 10:22 PM > Behen Radhika, > > Which Hindus dislike self-appointed Muslim leaders? > Yourself, some others, > all 800 plus million in this country? > > Which Hindus dislike self-appointed Hindu leaders? For > instance, Togadia > and Singhal are all self-appointed leaders of something > they call the VHP or > World Hindu Organisation. Do they represent all Hindus > across the globe (I > don't think any of my neighbours or friends were asked > to vote) or do all > Hindus like these self-appointed Hindu leaders just because > they happen not > to be Muslim? In which case what percentage of the 800+ > million do you > reckon? > > And conversely do all Muslims therefore like self-appointed > Muslim leaders? > What percent of Muslims dislike self-appointed Muslim > leaders or for that > matter self-appointed Zoroastrian, Manichean or Nath sadhu > leaders? > > Do you see where my logic is leading? > To nowhere, to a dead-end, at best to cuckoo land. I'm > afraid since it > mirrors yours you can draw conclusions about how you sound > to others. > > Now you are entitled to your opinions, but it bothers me > when people can't > come up with examples of their own and choose to fire their > cannons off my > shoulder. > > By your logic if the 133 million Muslims of India went on a > rampage every > Friday this country would, no doubt, be beset by > 'action-reactions' every > weekend. I know I goofed off yesterday, didn't attend > Jumma namaz, snoozed > the afternoon off instead and then watched Wimbledon all > evening (where our > only female tennis star was absent, no doubt because she > was out burning > down a tennis stadium after Friday prayers), but when it > came to the news > this morning, the papers only had stories of rampaging > Hindu mobs in Indore > and in Jammu. > > In fact, in Indore, the mob surrounded a Hindu jeweler and > bullied him to > the point where he poured kerosene on himself and set > himself alight. > Scanning the papers I was convinced it was the beasts who > ran out after > Friday prayers and lynched him, but no, they were not > Salims, Hanifs or > Aslams but mini Rajs, Bals, Narendras and Lal Krishnas, > bless their little > souls. > > Yesterday's HT had an interesting layout in their the > edit page, and I'd > urge people to look at it There were 2 unrelated > photographs, but both as > uncannily similar and different as they can get. > > One had three or four small Chinese kids (5 or 6 yr olds) > in a provincial > school in China. The blurb explained: these were special > sports schools in > the provinces (not just the metropolises, mind you), geared > to train > children to excel in sports. This photo showed potential > Olympic star > gymnasts stretching their limbs. One was bent down, two > stretched their > arms sky high. > > The other photograph needed no blurb. It is something we > see every other > day splashed across Indian newspapers: 3 old, bearded men, > vermillion > smeared across their foreheads, mouths contorted into a > ghastly O, hands > raised to the sky-- no, no, not doing gymnastics, but in > outrage about their > religious rights. Now you can switch the costume, replace > the tika with a > green cap or a turban and lo! You have the picture of our > great democracy > and people's right to get outraged, and the right to > burn shops, beat up > passers by, pelt stones, close down highways and schools > and generally have > the time of their lives whether it is about a cartoon or > whether it is a > canvas, a mosque, gurudwara or a temple.... And all of us > tearing our hair > out & wasting our time & energy on these useless > debates... > > In the meanwhile there will be other countries where > children will wake up > after a good night's sleep, eat a full breakfast, drink > clean water, have > access to toilets and showers, wear clean clothes, go to > school, study, and > then go to train to become the best a human being can > become, whether in the > arts or sciences or sport. > > Best > sj > > > On 7/5/08 1:42 PM, "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" > wrote: > > > Behen Sonia, > > > > this is precisely why hindus dislike the self > appointed muslim leaders who > > use religious places not for prayer but for > confrontation with other followers > > of different faith. On friday, we always see the > unruly mob getting infuriated > > by the leaders and provokes into show off the united > strength on unleashing > > the mob fury. Even if the population is hardly 17 > percent of one billion, on > > fridays it becomes a potent force of damage to > national unity at the behest of > > self appointed leaders, unlike hindus who go to temple > at the their choice on > > different day, too many deities and too many > worshippers on too different > > shrines but altogether not enough to damage the > nation. That is why the > > attitude of such muslim leaders who use the poor > muslim on his /her faith to > > be anti-national are hated. > > > > regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "S. Jabbar" > > > Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 1:21 pm > > Subject: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from > Hazratbal > > To: sarai list > > > >> Hurriyat Seizes Hazratbal Stage > >> > >> Srinagar, July 04, KONS: Brushing aside the Waqf > Board¹s resistance, > >> Hurriyat leaders today took hold of the > politically potent > >> Hazratbal stage > >> in a bid to make an unmistakable display of their > public clout in > >> Kashmir.The shrine has been a centre of public > movements for > >> decades, successively > >> and artfully used by major political figures, > Sheikh Muhammad Abdullah > >> included, to retain their hold on the masses. > >> After falling into the militant lap during the > early nineties, the > >> currentrulers of the state tried to de-politicize > it by > >> overhauling its management > >> system by replacing the NC-backed Muslim Auqaf > Trust with the > >> seeminglyneutral Waqf Board. > >> Both Mufti Muhammad Sayeed and Ghulam Nabi Azad > have scrupulously > >> avoidedturning the shrine into a platform for > themselves, perhaps > >> out of the > >> conviction that it was a double-edged sword which > their opponents, > >> bothmainstream and separatist, could turn against > them. > >> But the tide seemed to have turned today, despite > the Waqf Board¹s > >> warningthe other day that Hazratbal would not be > allowed to be > >> used for political > >> activities. > >> Filling in for their respective chairmen, senior > Hurriyat leaders, > >> ShabirAhmad Shah and Muhammad Ashraf Sahrai, > addressed the > >> congregation at > >> Hazratbal in defiance of the government-controlled > Waqf Board¹s > >> ban on > >> political activity at the holy shrine. > >> Shah said that the people of the state were united > and ready to > >> counter any > >> conspiracy. > >> Calling for a total boycott of the forthcoming > assembly elections, > >> Shahsaidthat polls were not a solution to the > Kashmir issue and > >> ³we cannot benefit > >> India by taking part in the polls in a betrayal of > the sacrifices of > >> martyrs.² > >> ³Boycott is a powerful and peaceful weapon in the > hands of the > >> people by > >> which they can counter Indian propaganda on > Kashmir,² he said. > >> Referring to the land transfer issue, Shah said > that it was not a > >> matter of > >> land alone but a question of the national identity > of Kashmiris > >> for which > >> the entire state had marched with steeled breasts. > >> ³We are not against the yatra, nor do we want to > harm the yatris, > >> and the > >> Kashmiris have proved it in the recent days,² he > said. > >> ³It is unfortunate that Muslims are being > targeted with violence > >> in Jammu, > >> and the police is a mute spectator, even though no > yatri or > >> tourist suffered > >> as much as a scratch in the nine days of agitation > in the valley,² > >> he said. > >> Attacking pro-India parties, Shah said that they > had been exposed > >> and that > >> the people had realized that they were out to > barter away Kashmiri > >> land.³In the present circumstances, people should > take timely and > >> correctdecisions, as even a minor mistake can > prove to be a heavy > >> burden on coming > >> generations,² he said. > >> Condemning the aggressive designs of the extremist > Hindu parties, > >> he said > >> that they had begun to serve their ends by giving > communal colour > >> to even > >> peaceful issues. > >> ³They are spawning hatred in the name of > religion. The people of > >> Jammu and > >> Kashmir will have to defeat their plots,² he > said. > >> Geelani¹s right hand man, Muhammad Ashraf Sahrai, > said that > >> Kashmiris would > >> complete the mission of the martyrs as they had > offered immense > >> sacrificesduring the ongoing struggle and there > would be no > >> compromise on these > >> sacrifices. > >> The congregation also offered thanksgiving prayers > over the > >> success of the > >> public agitation against the transfer of land to > the Shrine Board. > >> > >> From the Kashmir Observer > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> list > >> List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 23:58:32 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 23:58:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Muslim Federation condemn the action of Govt in canceling the transfer of land to SASB Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807051128n5deffc4eg9c619d81d0891620@mail.gmail.com> Hello Shivam : This news is for your Journalistic sentiments http://dailyshadowonline.com/theshadow/newsdet.aspx?q=2990 Jammu Jul 04 : Muslim Federation Jammu has strongly condemned the action of Govt in canceling the transfer of land to SASB. This shows the short sighted approach of the State Government towards such a sensitive issue. The land is otherwise bound to be used for providing facilities to the Yatries whether it remains with SASB or with State Govt. The leadership of Federation has condemned the political parties who are responsible for creating a messy situation for their narrow political interest. It appreciatres the role of leadership of BJP and Sangharsh Samiti in Alleviating the fear psychosis from the mind of muslim minority. The Leadership of Muslim Federation has expressed their gratitude to the leadership of BJP and Sangharsh Samiti who have openly ensured the safety and security of Muslim minority in Jammu. The situation in Jammu has remained peaceful and without any communal flare up. The speakers in the Press Conference has appreciated the role of majority community in Jammu who have maintained communal harmony and brotherhood even at the worst time of crises. They assured the public of Jammu to their full support in their struggle. They further warned against communalizing the situation at any time which is bound to weaken the cause of Jammu. It has expressed their disappointment over stray incident of burning the temporary sheds of Gujjars and has appealed to the administration to ensure that such incidents donot take place in any part of the State with any minority group. They have appealed to the govt to assess their loss and compensate them. It demands the appointment of State Governor from Jammu. With a view to maintain political balance in the State Muslim Federation has demanded the appointment of State Governor from Majority community Jammu. A local Governor would be in a better position to understand the situation in the State and would be more suitable to deal such crises in a better and effective manner. Muslim Federation demands the formation of United and strong political party of Jammu. It has appealed to the leadership of Jammu to form a Jammu based United Political Forum to fight for the just cause of Jammu. It is unfortunate that Jammu lacks united leadership which is adversely affecting the interest of Jammu as a whole. Muslim Federation would strongly work for such a platform which takes into consideration the urges and aspiration of the Jammu region as a whole. Muslim Federation and the speakers in the Press Conference has appealed to the Print and Electronic Media to behave in a responsible manner at the time of crises because any wrong reporting is bound to adversely effect the Society at large. The view point projected by the Electronic Media should also take into consideration the view points of different linguistic and religious minorities. Muslim Federation has condemned the stray incidents of attacks on Yatris bus at Banihal and has appealed to the majority community in Kashmir Valley toensure that such incidents donot take place again. The Yatris are our respected guests, any harm to them is not only unethical but un-islamic as well. Such incidents bring a bad name to the State and to the Majority community of the State. The leadership of Muslim Federation has strongly appealed to all sections of the Society in Jammu to maintain communal harmony and brotherhood at all costs. This is bound to strengthen the cause of Jammu. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 6 00:27:51 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 11:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <814339.69919.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Sonia   There is nothing surprising in the religious place Hazrartbal being the start-point for the 'victory' rally. It only reinforces the evaluation that the 'victory' was sought by one religion over the other. For those who achieved the 'victory', what better place to start the celebration than a Shrine/Mosque.   Our 'secular' commentators may spout various theories and analyses but those who were a part of that 'victory' were obviously honest about what they had achieved and in the name of which religion.      Whether it has been the 1931 'bread movement' or the intense rivalry between the 'sher' (of Sheikh Abdullah) and 'bakra' (of Maulvi Farooq) or the Hurriyat (freedom/separatist) movement, the pulpits of both Hazratbal and Jama Masjid have been used as much for political speeches/sloganeering and calls for separatism as they have been for religious sermons.   It has always amused me to see Umar Farooq (as just one example among others) indulge in such political speeches/sloganeering from Jama Masjid, or visit and seek support from his Political Mecca of OIC (and/or Pakistan) and yet at the same time hypocritically claim that the "Hurriyat" movement is a secular one.   It has amused me more to see how easily the likes of Umar Farooq, Prof Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other Hurriyat 'moderates') are able to fool people into buying their 'secular' credentials.   My Kashmiri Pandit brethren might lynch me for saying this, but I have much more respect for the constant political position of someone like Hurriyati hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani (even if I disagree with his arguments) who is firm in his belief that J&K as Muslim Majority 'territory' should be a part of Pakistan.   I am sure you did not mean to equate the situations but I found it strange that you mentioned in the same breath the "peaceful... victory rally" starting from Hazratbal with "siege of Hazrat Bal in the early '90s or for that matter the siege of Charar e-Sharif in '95 or for that matter the Golden Temple in the '80s".   In all three 'siege' mentioned, there were bands of armed terrorists holed up inside the three religious places. Some might choose to call them 'freedom fighters' or "Mujahideen".   Kshmendra     --- On Sat, 7/5/08, S. Jabbar wrote: From: S. Jabbar Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured To: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् " , "sarai list" Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 1:07 PM I think you may want to ask why it was necessary to begin a victory rally from a religious place and how any of us would have reacted if Advani were to embark on another 'victory' rally from Somnath or Ayodhya. These so-called victory rallies will only add fuel to the Jammu-Kashmir/ Hindu-Muslim conflagration. Hazrat Bal and the Jama Masjid are not neutral sites and have been politically charged ever since the 1930s when the Quit Kashmir movement was launched against the Maharaja. What must have started off as an equally 'peaceful' gathering turned violent and a man was killed. That was reason enough for mass rioting. You may be aware of the siege of Hazrat Bal in the early '90s or for that matter the siege of Charar e-Sharif in '95 or for that matter the Golden Temple in the '80s. The Hurriyat is not unaware that the state cannot risk a religious site becoming another site of contestation. It would try and control what in all likelihood would turn into yet another communally charged and violent event. And yet it decided to go ahead. The stakes are high and I really don't think anyone is above using religion to further their political ends. --sj On 7/5/08 12:43 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" wrote: > This is what happens when you prevent people from addressing > peaceful gatherings... o o o o Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among > 14 injured Special Correspondent, 5 July > 2008 http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/05/stories/2008070559931300.htm The clash > followed prayers to celebrate the "victory" in the land transfer > issue SRINAGAR: Senior Hurriyat Conference leader Shabir Shah was among > 14 people injured on Friday, following a scuffle between police and supporters > of separatist leaders after they offered prayers at the Hazratbal shrine to > celebrate the recent "victory" in the land transfer issue. The call for > "Hazratbal Chalo" was given by Syed Ali Geelani, head of a faction of the > Hurriyat Conference and supported by Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, head of another. > However, both were placed under house arrest by the police. Mr. Shah and other > leaders, however, reached Hazratbal amid heavy deployment of police and > paramilitary CRPF and offered prayers besides addressing the people. Mr. Shah > and Ashraf Sehrai, another senior leader denounced the government for putting > Mr. Geelani and Mr. Mirwaiz under house arrest. A protester hurls back a tear > smoke shell towards the police. On their way back, Mr. Shabir Shah, Mr. > Sehrai, Naeem Khan, Sheikh Aziz, Shafi Reshi, Firdous Shah and others led a > strong procession, which was lathi-charged. Fourteen people, including Mr. > Shabir Shah, were injured. He was shifted to the S.K. Institute of Medical > Sciences (SKIMS) for treatment. Even as rumours spread that he was critical, > Director SKIMS Abdul Hamid Zargar told The Hindu that he was stable. Another > procession taken from Jamia Masjid and led by the head imam, was dispersed > by police with smoke shells. Many people were arrested. Another > Hurriyat leader Javed Mir was arrested when he tried to take out a > procession towards Hazratbal in Khanyar > area. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From yasir.media at gmail.com Sun Jul 6 00:32:00 2008 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?WINDOWS-1256?Q?yasir_~=ED=C7_=D3=D1?=) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:02:00 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: SAJA Forum Interview of Pakistani Barrister AitzazAhsan In-Reply-To: References: <5af37bb0807021403r1468f596n70a3c9bd3886dc95@mail.gmail.com> <5af37bb0807041528x59b199b4l8d85c89d06a7edc5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0807051202g4b233237xa71838a600771d72@mail.gmail.com> dear radhikarajen, i assume you are referring to a different email message. this one is in english ... that no one except you replied to .. incidentally the point of the email text about the nonreaction in india to the lawyers movement in pakistan. so thanks for writing. the message in urdu I had sent was about lost and found letters between marx and ghalib, the article appeared on the VOA site in urdu. the interchange is interesting for marx is urging ghalib, who is undeterred from the direness of circumstance of his india 18_ _ , resulting ultimately in miscomunication. I hope this remembered interpretative precis will do for now. best yasir 2008/7/5 : > Yasir, > > I wish when you post your thoughts in the list in Urdu, you may also have > enough courtesy to put up english version of it along with the urdu version > so that those interested can understand your communication, please consider > this. > Thank you. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: yasir ~يا سر > Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 3:59 am > Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: SAJA Forum Interview of Pakistani Barrister > AitzazAhsan > To: sarai list > > > Is true then. > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > From editor at intertheory.org Sun Jul 6 06:39:10 2008 From: editor at intertheory.org (Nicholas Ruiz III) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 18:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Kritikos: CFP 2008 Message-ID: <905234.63436.qm@web902.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Kritikos: journal of postmodern cultural sound, text and image ISSN 1552-5112 Kritikos publishes work in cultural theory, art and criticism. Please allow one to three months for peer-review. http://intertheory.org/Submissions--Kritikos.htm Dr. Nicholas Ruiz III Associate Professor Department of Humanities, Cultural and Studio Arts Daytona State College PO Box 2811 Daytona Beach, FL 32120-2811 Editor, Kritikos http://intertheory.org From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Jul 6 13:31:19 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 13:31:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured In-Reply-To: <486F6DD9.2090209@gmail.com> References: <486F6DD9.2090209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70807060101t57248fa5r550745724d9a4c15@mail.gmail.com> dear tapas please look into numersous dissimilarities between you and the rest....and you too will be surprised to notice that TAPAS RAY is not a Hindu and that is normal and universal at the same time..... love is On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 6:19 PM, Tapas Ray wrote: > I thank Sonia from bringing this perspective into the conversation. > Looks like she isn't a terrorist after all. What a surprise! > > Tapas > > > S. Jabbar wrote: >> I think you may want to ask why it was necessary to begin a victory rally >> from a religious place and how any of us would have reacted if Advani were >> to embark on another 'victory' rally from Somnath or Ayodhya. These >> so-called victory rallies will only add fuel to the Jammu-Kashmir/ >> Hindu-Muslim conflagration. >> >> Hazrat Bal and the Jama Masjid are not neutral sites and have been >> politically charged ever since the 1930s when the Quit Kashmir movement was >> launched against the Maharaja. What must have started off as an equally >> 'peaceful' gathering turned violent and a man was killed. That was reason >> enough for mass rioting. You may be aware of the siege of Hazrat Bal in the >> early '90s or for that matter the siege of Charar e-Sharif in '95 or for >> that matter the Golden Temple in the '80s. >> >> The Hurriyat is not unaware that the state cannot risk a religious site >> becoming another site of contestation. It would try and control what in all >> likelihood would turn into yet another communally charged and violent event. >> And yet it decided to go ahead. The stakes are high and I really don't >> think anyone is above using religion to further their political ends. >> --sj >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From mattersofart at gmail.com Sun Jul 6 09:04:15 2008 From: mattersofart at gmail.com (Anoop Kamath) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 04:34:15 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Read MOA's July 5th Upload Now! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Friends, Greetings from www.mattersofart.com . Our July 5th upload can be viewed online now! ** - *Radhika Desai*writes about *Bose Krishnamachari*'s latest works on display at Aicon, *London* - Eminent art writer *R. Nandakumar *discusses the early studies and drawings of *Surendran Nair* - Special Interview: *Giridhar Khasnis* in converation with* Ravi Kumar Kashi* - Read the complete* Delhi High Court Judgement *on criminal proceedings against *M.F. Husain* - *Sushma Bahl's* report on *Art Basel 39* - *Alexander Keefe's* essay on *Nitin Mukul*'s* I Woke up Somewhere Else* - *Inder Salim* on his* *performance at the *Trafalgar Square*, London* * - *Dr. Lynne Lokensgard *on Robert Rauschenberg** - Feature on one of the biggest public art project* – You Are Beautiful* - *Online Exhibition*: Six Paintings by *Rituu A Kamath* - *Exhibition reviews*:* **Shiv Verma George Martin Exhibition at Ramakrishna Mission of Culture, **Kolkata* - And news and views… Log on to www.mattersofart.com for the latest news in Indian contemporary art For listings visit http://mattersofart.blogspot.com Anoop Kamath Editor-in-Chief www.mattersofart.com Mobile: 98111 68775 -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sun Jul 6 14:22:53 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 13:52:53 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Behen Sonia, at the outset, let me assure you I do not need your shoulder to put my gun on. For the simple reason, I do not have faith in violence and from experience, of all humans, it is wellknown truth that violence begets more violence, as my faith is in pen, is mightier than sword, but intelligent pen can make changes in society without violence. ! As to your outburst about self appointed muslim leaders names are many, but relevant ones are that of Owaisi,Banatwala, Jaffer Sharief, Saman Khurshid to name a few, who are disliked by both hindus and muslims in their outbursts against the faith in their self styled kafir outbursts, same is the story for the togadia and the like, but I do not agree when you classify Modi in the list, for the simple reason that perhaps in free India, he is the only CM who had courage to act without fear or favour to control mobs of hindus or muslims in riots, inspite of psuedo secular media baying for him. Muslims neglected in development over the years with lack of education except the scriptures, and hard ways of life making a 12 year old slog for dharma as it is called for apprenticeship in mechanic or tyre repair shop, working for a pittance is tragedy that needs to be addressed just as the poor hindu boy slogging it out in hotels as cleaners. when bad governance does not take care of education and right to have a decent earning opportunity for all. ----- Original Message ----- From: "S. Jabbar" Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 10:22 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Cc: sarai list > Behen Radhika, > > Which Hindus dislike self-appointed Muslim leaders? Yourself, some > others,all 800 plus million in this country? > > Which Hindus dislike self-appointed Hindu leaders? For instance, > Togadiaand Singhal are all self-appointed leaders of something > they call the VHP or > World Hindu Organisation. Do they represent all Hindus across the > globe (I > don't think any of my neighbours or friends were asked to vote) or > do all > Hindus like these self-appointed Hindu leaders just because they > happen not > to be Muslim? In which case what percentage of the 800+ million > do you > reckon? > > And conversely do all Muslims therefore like self-appointed Muslim > leaders?What percent of Muslims dislike self-appointed Muslim > leaders or for that > matter self-appointed Zoroastrian, Manichean or Nath sadhu leaders? > > Do you see where my logic is leading? > To nowhere, to a dead-end, at best to cuckoo land. I'm afraid > since it > mirrors yours you can draw conclusions about how you sound to others. > > Now you are entitled to your opinions, but it bothers me when > people can't > come up with examples of their own and choose to fire their > cannons off my > shoulder. > > By your logic if the 133 million Muslims of India went on a > rampage every > Friday this country would, no doubt, be beset by 'action- > reactions' every > weekend. I know I goofed off yesterday, didn't attend Jumma > namaz, snoozed > the afternoon off instead and then watched Wimbledon all evening > (where our > only female tennis star was absent, no doubt because she was out > burningdown a tennis stadium after Friday prayers), but when it > came to the news > this morning, the papers only had stories of rampaging Hindu mobs > in Indore > and in Jammu. > > In fact, in Indore, the mob surrounded a Hindu jeweler and bullied > him to > the point where he poured kerosene on himself and set himself alight. > Scanning the papers I was convinced it was the beasts who ran out > afterFriday prayers and lynched him, but no, they were not Salims, > Hanifs or > Aslams but mini Rajs, Bals, Narendras and Lal Krishnas, bless > their little > souls. > > Yesterday's HT had an interesting layout in their the edit page, > and I'd > urge people to look at it There were 2 unrelated photographs, but > both as > uncannily similar and different as they can get. > > One had three or four small Chinese kids (5 or 6 yr olds) in a > provincialschool in China. The blurb explained: these were > special sports schools in > the provinces (not just the metropolises, mind you), geared to train > children to excel in sports. This photo showed potential Olympic star > gymnasts stretching their limbs. One was bent down, two stretched > theirarms sky high. > > The other photograph needed no blurb. It is something we see > every other > day splashed across Indian newspapers: 3 old, bearded men, vermillion > smeared across their foreheads, mouths contorted into a ghastly O, > handsraised to the sky-- no, no, not doing gymnastics, but in > outrage about their > religious rights. Now you can switch the costume, replace the > tika with a > green cap or a turban and lo! You have the picture of our great > democracyand people's right to get outraged, and the right to burn > shops, beat up > passers by, pelt stones, close down highways and schools and > generally have > the time of their lives whether it is about a cartoon or whether > it is a > canvas, a mosque, gurudwara or a temple.... And all of us tearing > our hair > out & wasting our time & energy on these useless debates... > > In the meanwhile there will be other countries where children will > wake up > after a good night's sleep, eat a full breakfast, drink clean > water, have > access to toilets and showers, wear clean clothes, go to school, > study, and > then go to train to become the best a human being can become, > whether in the > arts or sciences or sport. > > Best > sj > > > On 7/5/08 1:42 PM, "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" > wrote: > > Behen Sonia, > > > > this is precisely why hindus dislike the self appointed muslim > leaders who > > use religious places not for prayer but for confrontation with > other followers > > of different faith. On friday, we always see the unruly mob > getting infuriated =3E > by the leaders and provokes into show off the united strength on > unleashing> the mob fury. Even if the population is hardly 17 > percent of one billion, on > > fridays it becomes a potent force of damage to national unity at > the behest of > > self appointed leaders, unlike hindus who go to temple at the > their choice on > > different day, too many deities and too many worshippers on too > different> shrines but altogether not enough to damage the nation. > That is why the > > attitude of such muslim leaders who use the poor muslim on his > /her faith to > > be anti-national are hated. > > > > regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "S. Jabbar" > > Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 1:21 pm > > Subject: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal > > To: sarai list > > > >> Hurriyat Seizes Hazratbal Stage > >> > >> Srinagar, July 04, KONS: Brushing aside the Waqf Board¹s > resistance,>> Hurriyat leaders today took hold of the politically > potent>> Hazratbal stage > >> in a bid to make an unmistakable display of their public clout in > >> Kashmir.The shrine has been a centre of public movements for > >> decades, successively > >> and artfully used by major political figures, Sheikh Muhammad > Abdullah>> included, to retain their hold on the masses. > >> After falling into the militant lap during the early nineties, the > >> currentrulers of the state tried to de-politicize it by > >> overhauling its management > >> system by replacing the NC-backed Muslim Auqaf Trust with the > >> seeminglyneutral Waqf Board. > >> Both Mufti Muhammad Sayeed and Ghulam Nabi Azad have scrupulously > >> avoidedturning the shrine into a platform for themselves, perhaps > >> out of the > >> conviction that it was a double-edged sword which their opponents, > >> bothmainstream and separatist, could turn against them. > >> But the tide seemed to have turned today, despite the Waqf Board¹s > >> warningthe other day that Hazratbal would not be allowed to be > >> used for political > >> activities. > >> Filling in for their respective chairmen, senior Hurriyat leaders, > >> ShabirAhmad Shah and Muhammad Ashraf Sahrai, addressed the > >> congregation at > >> Hazratbal in defiance of the government-controlled Waqf Board¹s > >> ban on > >> political activity at the holy shrine. > >> Shah said that the people of the state were united and ready to > >> counter any > >> conspiracy. > >> Calling for a total boycott of the forthcoming assembly elections, > >> Shahsaidthat polls were not a solution to the Kashmir issue and > >> ³we cannot benefit > >> India by taking part in the polls in a betrayal of the > sacrifices of > >> martyrs.² > >> ³Boycott is a powerful and peaceful weapon in the hands of the > >> people by > >> which they can counter Indian propaganda on Kashmir,² he said. > >> Referring to the land transfer issue, Shah said that it was not a > >> matter of > >> land alone but a question of the national identity of Kashmiris > >> for which > >> the entire state had marched with steeled breasts. > >> ³We are not against the yatra, nor do we want to harm the yatris, > >> and the > >> Kashmiris have proved it in the recent days,² he said. > >> ³It is unfortunate that Muslims are being targeted with violence > >> in Jammu, > >> and the police is a mute spectator, even though no yatri or > >> tourist suffered > >> as much as a scratch in the nine days of agitation in the valley,² > >> he said. > >> Attacking pro-India parties, Shah said that they had been exposed > >> and that > >> the people had realized that they were out to barter away Kashmiri > >> land.³In the present circumstances, people should take timely and > >> correctdecisions, as even a minor mistake can prove to be a heavy > >> burden on coming > >> generations,² he said. > >> Condemning the aggressive designs of the extremist Hindu parties, > >> he said > >> that they had begun to serve their ends by giving communal colour > >> to even > >> peaceful issues. > >> ³They are spawning hatred in the name of religion. The people of > >> Jammu and > >> Kashmir will have to defeat their plots,² he said. > >> Geelani¹s right hand man, Muhammad Ashraf Sahrai, said that > >> Kashmiris would > >> complete the mission of the martyrs as they had offered immense > >> sacrificesduring the ongoing struggle and there would be no > >> compromise on these > >> sacrifices. > >> The congregation also offered thanksgiving prayers over the > >> success of the > >> public agitation against the transfer of land to the Shrine Board. > >> > >> From the Kashmir Observer > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> list > >> List archive: > > > From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sun Jul 6 14:28:48 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 13:58:48 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Amaranth Land Issue] In-Reply-To: <486F9EDD.1070901@gmail.com> References: <486F9EDD.1070901@gmail.com> Message-ID: Tapas, it is exactly, verbatim correct, but the truth is out of estimated 5 crore muslims, only 2.37 crores of muslims migrated, rest of the muslims, assured the national leaders that they would live harmoniously like brothers with their hindu brothers, did they keep their words. ? From Kashmir, to make it majority muslim domain, hindus were driven out , is it harmony and national leaders failed the citizens in governance and maintaining harmony by giving preferential treatments to castes and faiths, which is unacceptable in democratic rule where all have to treated and governed equally. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tapas Ray Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 9:49 pm Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Amaranth Land Issue] To: sarai list > PS: > > Radhika, > > Please see what you wrote yourself: > > radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > > when nation was divided on the faith of being a nation for > muslims, > it > is logical that muslims have to get relocated in the nation > that > they > wanted. ? > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue > Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:46:36 -0400 > From: Tapas Ray > > Radhika, > > Here's how I see things. > > I agree if you mean that the parties you call "pseudo-secular" use > communal sentiments for narrow political gain. However, they do > this not > just with religion but also with other identity factors like language, > ethnicity, and caste, according to taste. This sets them apart > from the > BJP to some extent. But only to some extent, because I think the > BJP too > would not, and probably does not, give up a chance to use those other > identities. It is probably just a question of degree. > > However, this does not put the BJP, and the Parivar in general, in the > same category as those parties, because unlike those, these are > exclusionary, supremacist, feed on anti-minority paranoia, have > institutionalised violence (think of the RSS shakhas), and used it > on a > scale probably not reached by the "pseudo-seculars". > > The BJP (as a representative of the Parivar) may or may not have been > better or worse than the "pseudo-seculars" in specific instances of > governance, but even a "better performance", however defined, can > neverbe its claim to power as long as the above are true. > > Last but not the least, before thinking about Lalbahadur Shastri's > death, etc., we should recall the Gandhi assassination, which we > tend to > forget but never should. Unless the BJP and the Parivar openly admit > that their role has been extremely harmful for the country, and > give up > their Hindutva ideology in both theory and practice, they will > continueto be an anomaly in our democratic system. > > Tapas > > > > > radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > Very correct, those who say they are secular are actually seen > very communal in day to day governance, but it is funny that if > BJP unites all in the nation it is called communal just because > united hindu votes would be more of potent force. ? > > > > As to administration of religious places it should be noted > that rich funds of dioceses of any denomination of christian faith > has absolutely no control as how it is used. recent news of about > the priest of an evangelist was bashed up by his own commune in > kerala, accounts were asked for 1499 crores misused by him. This > news appeared in all the print but not in visual media. ! > > > > Regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Tapas Ray > > >> Radhika, > >> > >> You did not get my point. I was saying exactly the opposite of > >> what you > >> thought I was saying. My point was that Prakash Ray should be > the > >> last > >> person to say that the government of J&K ought to get out of > the > >> wakf > >> board/temple trust business. > >> > >> But I am not surprised, because he has done similar things in > the > >> past - > >> spoken fiery words against Modi's "right-wing economic > policies" > >> if I > >> remember correctly, while the party he is always defending, > namely > >> CPI(M), has been condemned on that very issue in the state it > >> rules, > >> i.e., West Bengal. > >> > >> On the present issue, he is suggesting that the J&K government > get > >> out > >> of the wakfs and temple trusts, even though in West Bengal a > >> minister > >> heads the wakf board, and that board was the focus of an > >> investigation > >> into a massive scandal a few years ago, involving CPI(M) > people. > >> You > >> will see this if you read the news items I copied below my post. > >> > >> Hope this helps. > >> > >> Tapas > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sun Jul 6 17:33:16 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 08:03:16 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured In-Reply-To: <47e122a70807060101t57248fa5r550745724d9a4c15@mail.gmail.com> References: <486F6DD9.2090209@gmail.com> <47e122a70807060101t57248fa5r550745724d9a4c15@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4870B484.7060402@gmail.com> Inder, Actually, it doesn't surprise me ;) Tapas inder salim wrote: > dear tapas > please look into numersous dissimilarities between you and the > rest....and you too will be surprised to notice that TAPAS RAY is not > a Hindu > > and that is normal and universal at the same time..... > love > is > > On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 6:19 PM, Tapas Ray wrote: >> I thank Sonia from bringing this perspective into the conversation. >> Looks like she isn't a terrorist after all. What a surprise! >> >> Tapas >> >> >> S. Jabbar wrote: >>> I think you may want to ask why it was necessary to begin a victory rally >>> from a religious place and how any of us would have reacted if Advani were >>> to embark on another 'victory' rally from Somnath or Ayodhya. These >>> so-called victory rallies will only add fuel to the Jammu-Kashmir/ >>> Hindu-Muslim conflagration. >>> From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sun Jul 6 18:21:19 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 08:51:19 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Amaranth Land Issue] Message-ID: <4870BFC7.9010303@gmail.com> Radhika, I realised just now, that I had sent the following message to only you yesterday, instead of the list. Once again I hit reply instead of reply all! Although our discussion has moved beyond it, I'm still posting it now to let the list know what I meant to say, especially my sense of belonging with respect to India. Tapas -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 12:07:30 -0400 From: Tapas Ray To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Radhika, Please tell me: have you heard or read these things anywhere? 1. ‘‘Let Muslims look upon Ram as their hero and the communal problems will be all over’’. 2. ‘‘Jao Pakistan ya kabristan’’. 3. ‘‘Let Muslims understand that their real safety lies in the goodwill of the majority’’. Another thing, which I should have clarified in my earlier post: When I used the word mother within quotation marks, I did not mean that I do not consider India my country. I used the quote marks to indicate a pun on the phrase mother India - in the commonly use way, which you are referring to, and also as a person with a body, who gives birth to the "monster child". I know that India is where I belong. I have returned to it in the past. I am now abroad, and will return again. I feel more at home in India than I do in any of the countries I have visited, and the country in which I have lived for a few years, at different times - even though I often feel as though I get more respect there, than I do in India. Tapas radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > Tapas, > thank you for the response, your post which says the parivar asks muslims to vacate is false propaganda at its worst as no parivar or its members have ever said in so many words. For one, if a muslim is not loyal to the nation, but more loyal to Pakistan, stays in India, marries his progeny to pakistanis as spouse, then the question that naturally arises is to whom are they loyal, to nation of their stay or to the faith. If they are not loyal to the nation, the constitution itself has laws to treat with such kafirs, be it hindus or muslims, then laws of the land to deal with such traitors of the nation has a role to play. Even if a hindu, staying in India, that is this Bharath is traitor he is not rewarded for being traitor because he is hindu. > > As to constitution, it assures freedom and good governance for all, religion has no role in good governance, but political parties over the years, and its leaders have only relied on votes of communes such as yadavs, reddys, gowdas, and various caste denominations, even candidate is selected only after taking into account the votes of a particular caste equation irrespective of any party. Muslims who have traditionally been voting for Congress have now realised the importance of their votes, go with winning candidate, this with sure confidence can be seen as in karnataka elections where the Congress got marginalised and quite a few muslims have joined BJP, so much for communal gossip of Congress and its sponsored media and anchors.! > > The very game of reservations and quotas is a ploy to appease a few sections of caste equations, real beneficiaries even after years of such facility are in the miserable conditions as they were before. good governance should have addressed the issue of education for all, facilitation of vocation skills for alll, earning decent living for all citizens of the nation, and not government jobs based on certificates which with corrupt practise has become a costly affair. If free meal is given, none wants to earn his meal, and the best way is to inculcate the pride of being human, being with self respect, that is enough motivation to earn the meal in honourable earning.., with good basic education, good vocational skillsets, with opportunities for all to sustain themselves. > > Finally, as per the constitution all citizens have to be ruled with equity and just laws, but the issue gets subverted when it comes to civil laws, criminal laws as precedence are aplenty where religious leaders of "minority" communities do not accept the common and just laws. ? The end result of all this is open to see as each commune organises itself to barter and bargain for better slice of the cake with violent means, which is sad as in the case of naxals, gujjars and all neglected lot, who are seeing the light in organising themselves to have their say in governance, which clearly indicates of the bad and failed governance of the democratically elected leaders. ! > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tapas Ray > Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 6:54 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > >> Radhika, >> >> Let me just point out that, by asking Muslims to leave India >> today, the >> Parivar is endorsing the two-nation Jinnah as opposed to the >> earlier >> Jinnah. We can go farther back to discuss what turned Jinnah into >> what >> he came to be. But all this is common knowledge. >> >> In any case, as you know very well, the Indian constitution does >> not >> recognise Hindus and Muslims as two nations. Doesn't the Parivar >> come >> dangerously close to being anti-national in that sense? And its >> open use >> of violence in this project - what would you like to call it? >> >> In saying this, I am not making a fetish of the constitution, or >> nationalism. One can be opposed to the constitution of one's own >> country >> on points of principle, and one should not support everything >> one's own >> country stands for, if some of these things are not consistent >> with >> one's sense of justice, morality, ethics, etc. >> >> But the Parivar sees itself - and tries very hard to make everyone >> else >> see it - as the only true nationalist organisation. To me, this is >> simply a way of confusing people. >> >> Best, >> >> Tapas > From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Jul 6 23:39:39 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 23:39:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured In-Reply-To: <814339.69919.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <814339.69919.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70807061109j5ca3685do2ba267c409b24d06@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra I quote you, "but I have much more respect for the constant political position of someone like Hurriyati hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani" just read your statment again and remember when Syed Ali Shah Geelani too said similar about RSS. He really dislkes anything secular because a religous stand is logical for both Geelani sahib and for RSS. anything else is ambigous now i quote you again, "It has amused me more to see how easily the likes of Umar Farooq, Prof Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other Hurriyat 'moderates') are able to fool people into buying their 'secular' credentials" just remember when Atal Behari Vajpayee wrote a poem about the sad demolition of Babri Mosque...The words moistened the eyes of the naive, but we knew how crocodile weeps... you also know it well now i know there are positions, well you are within your rights to hold one ... that is ok i just met a kashmiri pandit who was demonstrating at jantar mantar today.... and i sarcastically congratulated about the news KASHSMIR PANDITOON NAY TODFOD KI, ( riots by kashmir pandits ) It is perhaps for the first time i heard about such a news. He understood and replied quickly... " if we dont resort to thes acts who will listen to us, we are politically irrlevant in the present political situation.... we need to read these situations quickly, and we do it from time to time. " now see how their brother is the valley do the same things for their own survial. for example PDP, who need to something from time to time to stay in relevant in the volatite politcal games being played in the valley..... what is so wrong about it if everything else is not. and once we are finished with these games.... only then we can being to talk about ETHICS and MORALS till then best inder salim > On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 12:27 AM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Sonia > > There is nothing surprising in the religious place Hazrartbal being the start-point for the 'victory' rally. It only reinforces the evaluation that the 'victory' was sought by one religion over the other. For those who achieved the 'victory', what better place to start the celebration than a Shrine/Mosque. > > Our 'secular' commentators may spout various theories and analyses but those who were a part of that 'victory' were obviously honest about what they had achieved and in the name of which religion. > > Whether it has been the 1931 'bread movement' or the intense rivalry between the 'sher' (of Sheikh Abdullah) and 'bakra' (of Maulvi Farooq) or the Hurriyat (freedom/separatist) movement, the pulpits of both Hazratbal and Jama Masjid have been used as much for political speeches/sloganeering and calls for separatism as they have been for religious sermons. > > It has always amused me to see Umar Farooq (as just one example among others) indulge in such political speeches/sloganeering from Jama Masjid, or visit and seek support from his Political Mecca of OIC (and/or Pakistan) and yet at the same time hypocritically claim that the "Hurriyat" movement is a secular one. > > It has amused me more to see how easily the likes of Umar Farooq, Prof Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other Hurriyat 'moderates') are able to fool people into buying their 'secular' credentials. > > My Kashmiri Pandit brethren might lynch me for saying this, but I have much more respect for the constant political position of someone like Hurriyati hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani (even if I disagree with his arguments) who is firm in his belief that J&K as Muslim Majority 'territory' should be a part of Pakistan. > > I am sure you did not mean to equate the situations but I found it strange that you mentioned in the same breath the "peaceful... victory rally" starting from Hazratbal with "siege of Hazrat Bal in the early '90s or for that matter the siege of Charar e-Sharif in '95 or > for that matter the Golden Temple in the '80s". > > In all three 'siege' mentioned, there were bands of armed terrorists holed up inside the three religious places. Some might choose to call them 'freedom fighters' or "Mujahideen". > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Sat, 7/5/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > > From: S. Jabbar > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured > To: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् " , "sarai list" > Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 1:07 PM > > I think you may want to ask why it was necessary to begin a victory rally > from a religious place and how any of us would have reacted if Advani were > to embark on another 'victory' rally from Somnath or Ayodhya. These > so-called victory rallies will only add fuel to the Jammu-Kashmir/ > Hindu-Muslim conflagration. > > Hazrat Bal and the Jama Masjid are not neutral sites and have been > politically charged ever since the 1930s when the Quit Kashmir movement was > launched against the Maharaja. What must have started off as an equally > 'peaceful' gathering turned violent and a man was killed. That was > reason > enough for mass rioting. You may be aware of the siege of Hazrat Bal in the > early '90s or for that matter the siege of Charar e-Sharif in '95 or > for > that matter the Golden Temple in the '80s. > > The Hurriyat is not unaware that the state cannot risk a religious site > becoming another site of contestation. It would try and control what in all > likelihood would turn into yet another communally charged and violent event. > And yet it decided to go ahead. The stakes are high and I really don't > think anyone is above using religion to further their political ends. > --sj > > > On 7/5/08 12:43 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" > wrote: > >> This is what happens when you prevent people from addressing >> peaceful > gatherings... > > > o o o o > > > Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among >> 14 injured > > Special Correspondent, 5 July >> 2008 > http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/05/stories/2008070559931300.htm > > The clash >> followed prayers to celebrate the "victory" in the land transfer >> issue > > > SRINAGAR: Senior Hurriyat Conference leader Shabir Shah was among >> 14 > people injured on Friday, following a scuffle between police and > supporters >> of separatist leaders after they offered prayers at the > Hazratbal shrine to >> celebrate the recent "victory" in the land > transfer issue. > > The call for >> "Hazratbal Chalo" was given by Syed Ali Geelani, head of > a faction of the >> Hurriyat Conference and supported by Mirwaiz Umar > Farooq, head of another. >> However, both were placed under house arrest > by the police. Mr. Shah and other >> leaders, however, reached Hazratbal > amid heavy deployment of police and >> paramilitary CRPF and offered > prayers besides addressing the people. > > Mr. Shah >> and Ashraf Sehrai, another senior leader denounced the > government for putting >> Mr. Geelani and Mr. Mirwaiz under house arrest. > > A protester hurls back a tear >> smoke shell towards the police. > > On their way back, Mr. Shabir Shah, Mr. >> Sehrai, Naeem Khan, Sheikh > Aziz, Shafi Reshi, Firdous Shah and others led a >> strong procession, > which was lathi-charged. > > Fourteen people, including Mr. >> Shabir Shah, were injured. He was > shifted to the S.K. Institute of Medical >> Sciences (SKIMS) for > treatment. > > Even as rumours spread that he was critical, >> Director SKIMS Abdul > Hamid Zargar told The Hindu that he was stable. Another >> procession > taken from Jamia Masjid and led by the head imam, was dispersed >> by > police with smoke shells. Many people were arrested. Another >> Hurriyat > leader Javed Mir was arrested when he tried to take out a >> procession > towards Hazratbal in Khanyar >> area. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open >> discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To >> subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in >> the subject header. > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: >> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Mon Jul 7 11:30:24 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 11:30:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Radhika, The cannon off my shoulder was only a turn of phrase, and not a question about your faith in violence. You may choose to see this post as another 'outburst,' but since you have simultaneously declared your faith in non-violence and in Narendra Modi it's got me curious. Is your faith in ahimsa absolute? Do you believe in it as a fundamental principle or is it dependent on circumstances? For instance, if there is violence against your person, family, property, friend, community, do you believe in hitting back or do you restrain the impulse because of your belief in violence begetting more violence? >From what you've written it seems that you would believe in restraint. In which case I'm baffled by your defence of Mr. Action-Reaction Modi. Do you live in Gujarat? Even if you don't, I've read from your posts that you are/were a journalist and so must have followed the Gujarat events closely. Regardless of Modi's track record in governance I'm surprised and dismayed that you refuse to condemn his hand in the murder of more than a thousand citizens of this country in an event that can only be described as a pogrom. >From the indoctrination camps amongst adivasis in the Dangs, to pre-Godhra where gangs of so-called kar sevaks were already causing havoc in Faizabad-Ayodhya, to Godhra, where it is still a mystery as to how a crowd managed to burn down an entire coach in a train that was moving, to the post- Godhra 'action-reaction' that went on for weeks, to the actions of the Police that refused to curb rioters, help victims, or cooperate with the army when the central government was forced to call it out, to the camps where victims were forced to stay for months on end and no steps were taken to rehabilitate them, all of this was under the able administration of Modi. Four days after the violence was unleashed Geoge Fernandes as Defence Minister went to Gujarat to assess the situation. He was nearly lynched when he tried to stop a crowd of Bajrang Dalis out on their sacred mission to loot, kill and rape. I went with a small delegation of citizens to meet the PM. He tried to make out that the whole thing (on day 4) was the creation of the media and that things were not so bad. When we challenged him he admitted things were pretty bad. When we asked why, when SIMI could be banned that the VHP-Bajrang Dal gangs in Gujarat could not, especially in this crisis, he said that such things were difficult to do because 'we were a democracy.' My answer to Vajpayee about the nature of our dubious democracy is no doubt recorded in some file, somewhere, but that is neither here nor there. By day 4 it was clear to many people in this country, that like 1984, the Gujarat 'riots' was sponsored by the party in power to gain in the forthcoming elections, which it did. In victory Modi could have been more generous with the victims of violence but he chose not to be. The way the courts in Gujarat operated post the violence was hardly the mark of a well-governed state. The only case that was concluded successfully was the Bilquis Bano case where the woman saw 12 family members being butchered in front of her before she was brutally gang-raped. Because your courageous Narendrabhai refused to take responsibility for her safety against the thugs in his party who threatened her life if she dared to depose before the court and the judges in Gujarat who were noted by the Supreme Court to be acting prejudicially, the case had to be transferred to Bombay. Bilquis had to be moved from safe house to safe house across our so-called free country until the judgment. Can Muslims live in Gujarat without fear, and as equal citizens in a country that you yourself have observed is their country of choice, or must they forever cower in their ghettoes in fear? Governance is not only about bijli, pani, sadak. Leaders, particularly those whom we call courageous, are not supposed to be leading mobs to the charge and justifying their outrageous behaviour with talk of Gujarati Asmita. Whether it is '47, '84, '92, 2002, and all the other big & small communal or caste pogroms that have caused death, injury, fear, distrust and destruction, they need to be soundly condemned, regardless of the identity of the perpetrator or the victim. Particularly from those of us who think of themselves as practitioners of ahimsa. --sj On 7/6/08 2:22 PM, "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" wrote: > Behen Sonia, > > at the outset, let me assure you I do not need your shoulder to put my gun > on. For the simple reason, I do not have faith in violence and from > experience, of all humans, it is wellknown truth that violence begets more > violence, as my faith is in pen, is mightier than sword, but intelligent pen > can make changes in society without violence. ! > > As to your outburst about self appointed muslim leaders names are many, but > relevant ones are that of Owaisi,Banatwala, Jaffer Sharief, Saman Khurshid to > name a few, who are disliked by both hindus and muslims in their outbursts > against the faith in their self styled kafir outbursts, same is the story for > the togadia and the like, but I do not agree when you classify Modi in the > list, for the simple reason that perhaps in free India, he is the only CM who > had courage to act without fear or favour to control mobs of hindus or muslims > in riots, inspite of psuedo secular media baying for him. Muslims neglected in > development over the years with lack of education except the scriptures, and > hard ways of life making a 12 year old slog for dharma as it is called for > apprenticeship in mechanic or tyre repair shop, working for a pittance is > tragedy that needs to be addressed just as the poor hindu boy slogging it out > in hotels as cleaners. when bad governance does not take care > of education and right to have a decent earning opportunity for all. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "S. Jabbar" > Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 10:22 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Cc: sarai list > >> Behen Radhika, >> >> Which Hindus dislike self-appointed Muslim leaders? Yourself, some >> others,all 800 plus million in this country? >> >> Which Hindus dislike self-appointed Hindu leaders? For instance, >> Togadiaand Singhal are all self-appointed leaders of something >> they call the VHP or >> World Hindu Organisation. Do they represent all Hindus across the >> globe (I >> don't think any of my neighbours or friends were asked to vote) or >> do all >> Hindus like these self-appointed Hindu leaders just because they >> happen not >> to be Muslim? In which case what percentage of the 800+ million >> do you >> reckon? >> >> And conversely do all Muslims therefore like self-appointed Muslim >> leaders?What percent of Muslims dislike self-appointed Muslim >> leaders or for that >> matter self-appointed Zoroastrian, Manichean or Nath sadhu leaders? >> >> Do you see where my logic is leading? >> To nowhere, to a dead-end, at best to cuckoo land. I'm afraid >> since it >> mirrors yours you can draw conclusions about how you sound to others. >> >> Now you are entitled to your opinions, but it bothers me when >> people can't >> come up with examples of their own and choose to fire their >> cannons off my >> shoulder. >> >> By your logic if the 133 million Muslims of India went on a >> rampage every >> Friday this country would, no doubt, be beset by 'action- >> reactions' every >> weekend. I know I goofed off yesterday, didn't attend Jumma >> namaz, snoozed >> the afternoon off instead and then watched Wimbledon all evening >> (where our >> only female tennis star was absent, no doubt because she was out >> burningdown a tennis stadium after Friday prayers), but when it >> came to the news >> this morning, the papers only had stories of rampaging Hindu mobs >> in Indore >> and in Jammu. >> >> In fact, in Indore, the mob surrounded a Hindu jeweler and bullied >> him to >> the point where he poured kerosene on himself and set himself alight. >> Scanning the papers I was convinced it was the beasts who ran out >> afterFriday prayers and lynched him, but no, they were not Salims, >> Hanifs or >> Aslams but mini Rajs, Bals, Narendras and Lal Krishnas, bless >> their little >> souls. >> >> Yesterday's HT had an interesting layout in their the edit page, >> and I'd >> urge people to look at it There were 2 unrelated photographs, but >> both as >> uncannily similar and different as they can get. >> >> One had three or four small Chinese kids (5 or 6 yr olds) in a >> provincialschool in China. The blurb explained: these were >> special sports schools in >> the provinces (not just the metropolises, mind you), geared to train >> children to excel in sports. This photo showed potential Olympic star >> gymnasts stretching their limbs. One was bent down, two stretched >> theirarms sky high. >> >> The other photograph needed no blurb. It is something we see >> every other >> day splashed across Indian newspapers: 3 old, bearded men, vermillion >> smeared across their foreheads, mouths contorted into a ghastly O, >> handsraised to the sky-- no, no, not doing gymnastics, but in >> outrage about their >> religious rights. Now you can switch the costume, replace the >> tika with a >> green cap or a turban and lo! You have the picture of our great >> democracyand people's right to get outraged, and the right to burn >> shops, beat up >> passers by, pelt stones, close down highways and schools and >> generally have >> the time of their lives whether it is about a cartoon or whether >> it is a >> canvas, a mosque, gurudwara or a temple.... And all of us tearing >> our hair >> out & wasting our time & energy on these useless debates... >> >> In the meanwhile there will be other countries where children will >> wake up >> after a good night's sleep, eat a full breakfast, drink clean >> water, have >> access to toilets and showers, wear clean clothes, go to school, >> study, and >> then go to train to become the best a human being can become, >> whether in the >> arts or sciences or sport. >> >> Best >> sj >> >> >> On 7/5/08 1:42 PM, "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" >> wrote: >>> Behen Sonia, >>> >>> this is precisely why hindus dislike the self appointed muslim >> leaders who >>> use religious places not for prayer but for confrontation with >> other followers >>> of different faith. On friday, we always see the unruly mob >> getting infuriated >>> by the leaders and provokes into show off the united strength on >> unleashing> the mob fury. Even if the population is hardly 17 >> percent of one billion, on >>> fridays it becomes a potent force of damage to national unity at >> the behest of >>> self appointed leaders, unlike hindus who go to temple at the >> their choice on >>> different day, too many deities and too many worshippers on too >> different> shrines but altogether not enough to damage the nation. >> That is why the >>> attitude of such muslim leaders who use the poor muslim on his >> /her faith to >>> be anti-national are hated. >>> >>> regards. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "S. Jabbar" >>> Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 1:21 pm >>> Subject: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal >>> To: sarai list >>> >>>> Hurriyat Seizes Hazratbal Stage >>>> >>>> Srinagar, July 04, KONS: Brushing aside the Waqf Board¹s >> resistance,>> Hurriyat leaders today took hold of the politically >> potent>> Hazratbal stage >>>> in a bid to make an unmistakable display of their public clout in >>>> Kashmir.The shrine has been a centre of public movements for >>>> decades, successively >>>> and artfully used by major political figures, Sheikh Muhammad >> Abdullah>> included, to retain their hold on the masses. >>>> After falling into the militant lap during the early nineties, the >>>> currentrulers of the state tried to de-politicize it by >>>> overhauling its management >>>> system by replacing the NC-backed Muslim Auqaf Trust with the >>>> seeminglyneutral Waqf Board. >>>> Both Mufti Muhammad Sayeed and Ghulam Nabi Azad have scrupulously >>>> avoidedturning the shrine into a platform for themselves, perhaps >>>> out of the >>>> conviction that it was a double-edged sword which their opponents, >>>> bothmainstream and separatist, could turn against them. >>>> But the tide seemed to have turned today, despite the Waqf Board¹s >>>> warningthe other day that Hazratbal would not be allowed to be >>>> used for political >>>> activities. >>>> Filling in for their respective chairmen, senior Hurriyat leaders, >>>> ShabirAhmad Shah and Muhammad Ashraf Sahrai, addressed the >>>> congregation at >>>> Hazratbal in defiance of the government-controlled Waqf Board¹s >>>> ban on >>>> political activity at the holy shrine. >>>> Shah said that the people of the state were united and ready to >>>> counter any >>>> conspiracy. >>>> Calling for a total boycott of the forthcoming assembly elections, >>>> Shahsaidthat polls were not a solution to the Kashmir issue and >>>> ³we cannot benefit >>>> India by taking part in the polls in a betrayal of the >> sacrifices of >>>> martyrs.² >>>> ³Boycott is a powerful and peaceful weapon in the hands of the >>>> people by >>>> which they can counter Indian propaganda on Kashmir,² he said. >>>> Referring to the land transfer issue, Shah said that it was not a >>>> matter of >>>> land alone but a question of the national identity of Kashmiris >>>> for which >>>> the entire state had marched with steeled breasts. >>>> ³We are not against the yatra, nor do we want to harm the yatris, >>>> and the >>>> Kashmirishave proved it in the recent days,² he said. >>>> ³It is unfortunate that Muslims are being targeted with violence >>>> in Jammu, >>>> and the police is a mute spectator, even though no yatri or >>>> tourist suffered >>>> as much as a scratch in the nine days of agitation in the valley,² >>>> he said. >>>> Attacking pro-India parties, Shah said that they had been exposed >>>> and that >>>> the people had realized that they were out to barter away Kashmiri >>>> land.³In the present circumstances, people should take timely and >>>> correctdecisions, as even a minor mistake can prove to be a heavy >>>> burden on coming >>>> generations,² he said. >>>> Condemning the aggressive designs of the extremist Hindu parties, >>>> he said >>>> that they had begun to serve their ends by giving communal colour >>>> to even >>>> peaceful issues. >>>> ³They are spawning hatred in the name of religion. The people of >>>> Jammu and >>>> Kashmir will have to defeat their plots,² he said. >>>> Geelani¹s right hand man, Muhammad Ashraf Sahrai, said that >>>> Kashmiris would >>>> complete the mission of the martyrs as they had offered immense >>>> sacrificesduring the ongoing struggle and there would be no >>>> compromise on these >>>> sacrifices. >>>> The congregation also offered thanksgiving prayers over the >>>> success of the >>>> public agitation against the transfer of land to the Shrine Board. >>>> >>>> From the Kashmir Observer >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>>> list >>>> List archive: >> >> >> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 7 17:00:37 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 04:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured In-Reply-To: <47e122a70807061109j5ca3685do2ba267c409b24d06@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <778524.66218.qm@web57212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Inder Salim   I wish I had understood what point you were trying to make.   What I did notice is your quoting me partially and out of context and then using that to put a spin on my words so that you could indulge in innuendos and make judgements about me.   I was talking of having respect for the 'constant political position' of people whoever it may be. Geelani was an example for the sake of comparing with (what I see as) hypocritical declamations of the "moderate" Hurriyatis (especially Umar Farooq) and their claims of their brand of the "Hurriyat" call being a 'secular' one. It is called 'munaafaqat'.   Just to explain it further, I similarly have respect for the 'constant political position' of Yasin Malik in that he wants (or used to want) the erstwhile princely State of Jammu & Kashmir to be an Independent Country with it's territories freed from both Indian and Pakistani control. Again I say this at the risk of being lynched by my KP brethren. Yasin, in proclaiming his having eschewed violence was foolish enough to admit that he (and/or JKLF) had previous to that indulged in 'killings'   I disagree with both positions, of Geelani and Yasin, but that does not stop me from acknowledging their constancy.   Inder you talk about my 'positions' but you obviously have no idea of what they are. You only presume.   Anyone who seeks to disturb the peace in my country India is for me an enemy of the nation. Anyone who seeks to break-up India or bring in violent divides between it's people is for me an enemy of India. They should be recognised as, dealt with and treated as enemies. Before your make another presumption, the 'recognising', 'dealing with' and 'treating' as enemies neither automatically means nor is suggested by me should be done by repressive means or incarceration or State Violence.    The affiliations of these 'enemies' are of no importance. They could be from Hurriyat Conference, or JKLF or RSS or VHP or Bajrang Dal or SIMI or any other organisation.    Kshmendra        --- On Sun, 7/6/08, inder salim wrote: From: inder salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 11:39 PM Dear Kshmendra I quote you, "but I have much more respect for the constant political position of someone like Hurriyati hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani" just read your statment again and remember when Syed Ali Shah Geelani too said similar about RSS. He really dislkes anything secular because a religous stand is logical for both Geelani sahib and for RSS. anything else is ambigous now i quote you again, "It has amused me more to see how easily the likes of Umar Farooq, Prof Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other Hurriyat 'moderates') are able to fool people into buying their 'secular' credentials" just remember when Atal Behari Vajpayee wrote a poem about the sad demolition of Babri Mosque...The words moistened the eyes of the naive, but we knew how crocodile weeps... you also know it well now i know there are positions, well you are within your rights to hold one ... that is ok i just met a kashmiri pandit who was demonstrating at jantar mantar today.... and i sarcastically congratulated about the news KASHSMIR PANDITOON NAY TODFOD KI, ( riots by kashmir pandits ) It is perhaps for the first time i heard about such a news. He understood and replied quickly... " if we dont resort to thes acts who will listen to us, we are politically irrlevant in the present political situation.... we need to read these situations quickly, and we do it from time to time. " now see how their brother is the valley do the same things for their own survial. for example PDP, who need to something from time to time to stay in relevant in the volatite politcal games being played in the valley..... what is so wrong about it if everything else is not. and once we are finished with these games.... only then we can being to talk about ETHICS and MORALS till then best inder salim > On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 12:27 AM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Sonia > > There is nothing surprising in the religious place Hazrartbal being the start-point for the 'victory' rally. It only reinforces the evaluation that the 'victory' was sought by one religion over the other. For those who achieved the 'victory', what better place to start the celebration than a Shrine/Mosque. > > Our 'secular' commentators may spout various theories and analyses but those who were a part of that 'victory' were obviously honest about what they had achieved and in the name of which religion. > > Whether it has been the 1931 'bread movement' or the intense rivalry between the 'sher' (of Sheikh Abdullah) and 'bakra' (of Maulvi Farooq) or the Hurriyat (freedom/separatist) movement, the pulpits of both Hazratbal and Jama Masjid have been used as much for political speeches/sloganeering and calls for separatism as they have been for religious sermons. > > It has always amused me to see Umar Farooq (as just one example among others) indulge in such political speeches/sloganeering from Jama Masjid, or visit and seek support from his Political Mecca of OIC (and/or Pakistan) and yet at the same time hypocritically claim that the "Hurriyat" movement is a secular one. > > It has amused me more to see how easily the likes of Umar Farooq, Prof Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other Hurriyat 'moderates') are able to fool people into buying their 'secular' credentials. > > My Kashmiri Pandit brethren might lynch me for saying this, but I have much more respect for the constant political position of someone like Hurriyati hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani (even if I disagree with his arguments) who is firm in his belief that J&K as Muslim Majority 'territory' should be a part of Pakistan. > > I am sure you did not mean to equate the situations but I found it strange that you mentioned in the same breath the "peaceful... victory rally" starting from Hazratbal with "siege of Hazrat Bal in the early '90s or for that matter the siege of Charar e-Sharif in '95 or > for that matter the Golden Temple in the '80s". > > In all three 'siege' mentioned, there were bands of armed terrorists holed up inside the three religious places. Some might choose to call them 'freedom fighters' or "Mujahideen". > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Sat, 7/5/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > > From: S. Jabbar > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured > To: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् " , "sarai list" > Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 1:07 PM > > I think you may want to ask why it was necessary to begin a victory rally > from a religious place and how any of us would have reacted if Advani were > to embark on another 'victory' rally from Somnath or Ayodhya. These > so-called victory rallies will only add fuel to the Jammu-Kashmir/ > Hindu-Muslim conflagration. > > Hazrat Bal and the Jama Masjid are not neutral sites and have been > politically charged ever since the 1930s when the Quit Kashmir movement was > launched against the Maharaja. What must have started off as an equally > 'peaceful' gathering turned violent and a man was killed. That was > reason > enough for mass rioting. You may be aware of the siege of Hazrat Bal in the > early '90s or for that matter the siege of Charar e-Sharif in '95 or > for > that matter the Golden Temple in the '80s. > > The Hurriyat is not unaware that the state cannot risk a religious site > becoming another site of contestation. It would try and control what in all > likelihood would turn into yet another communally charged and violent event. > And yet it decided to go ahead. The stakes are high and I really don't > think anyone is above using religion to further their political ends. > --sj > > > On 7/5/08 12:43 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" > wrote: > >> This is what happens when you prevent people from addressing >> peaceful > gatherings... > > > o o o o > > > Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among >> 14 injured > > Special Correspondent, 5 July >> 2008 > http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/05/stories/2008070559931300.htm > > The clash >> followed prayers to celebrate the "victory" in the land transfer >> issue > > > SRINAGAR: Senior Hurriyat Conference leader Shabir Shah was among >> 14 > people injured on Friday, following a scuffle between police and > supporters >> of separatist leaders after they offered prayers at the > Hazratbal shrine to >> celebrate the recent "victory" in the land > transfer issue. > > The call for >> "Hazratbal Chalo" was given by Syed Ali Geelani, head of > a faction of the >> Hurriyat Conference and supported by Mirwaiz Umar > Farooq, head of another. >> However, both were placed under house arrest > by the police. Mr. Shah and other >> leaders, however, reached Hazratbal > amid heavy deployment of police and >> paramilitary CRPF and offered > prayers besides addressing the people. > > Mr. Shah >> and Ashraf Sehrai, another senior leader denounced the > government for putting >> Mr. Geelani and Mr. Mirwaiz under house arrest. > > A protester hurls back a tear >> smoke shell towards the police. > > On their way back, Mr. Shabir Shah, Mr. >> Sehrai, Naeem Khan, Sheikh > Aziz, Shafi Reshi, Firdous Shah and others led a >> strong procession, > which was lathi-charged. > > Fourteen people, including Mr. >> Shabir Shah, were injured. He was > shifted to the S.K. Institute of Medical >> Sciences (SKIMS) for > treatment. > > Even as rumours spread that he was critical, >> Director SKIMS Abdul > Hamid Zargar told The Hindu that he was stable. Another >> procession > taken from Jamia Masjid and led by the head imam, was dispersed >> by > police with smoke shells. Many people were arrested. Another >> Hurriyat > leader Javed Mir was arrested when he tried to take out a >> procession > towards Hazratbal in Khanyar >> area. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open >> discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To >> subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in >> the subject header. > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: >> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Jul 7 19:00:00 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 19:00:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured In-Reply-To: <778524.66218.qm@web57212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <47e122a70807061109j5ca3685do2ba267c409b24d06@mail.gmail.com> <778524.66218.qm@web57212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70807070630n3bded971xed644af70150bf46@mail.gmail.com> Dear kshmendra i quote myself and once we are finished with these games.... only then we can begin to talk about ETHICS and MORALS it is again your choice to ignore the most important line of my last post... i dont feel insecure .... i know you know well what i am talking about.... now see, you take a position with regard to 'Respect', you respect, i dont know whethere with capital R or with small r, but u respect the politicians who are against the occupation of indian foreces in kashmir.but strangely in the next line you think that they are enemies of the indian state and you are Indian, right . i on the contrary i dont respect a politican, ....... i have respect for a poet, a musician, an ariist, a social worker a simple worker, a job less man frustrated by the indiferent state. i respect a poor man on the road side, i respect a tribalman who is contantly being driven out of his ecology , i respect millions of landless people in india.... i have respect for the womens rights, i repect you has a human being and in that sense i respect a politician even. yes, i respect the morals and ethics, more than being a nationalist merely as an identity tag....i respect rebels...... i respect my teacher AK Mir who publically slapped Mufti Mohd Syed in Bijbehara because he as a Congress pradesh president masterminded 1986 communal riots.... i respect a petty theif who threw shit on the judge in delhi because he was languishing in the jail and could not afford to bail himself out. i have respect for the courage.... and similarly i have respect for those who uphold their existential beings wheenver the state or the power structures openly supress and disrespects the ethics and morals of the other.... that is why kashmir issue is about ethics and morals as well..... that is why the land transter to shrine board undermined the sensitivity of the already disrespected kashmiri muslims... that is why 1990 disrespect to kashmiri pandits is also about ethics and morals as well.. i see human being through this prism of ethics and morals ... i mix love with it and see some possiblity to heal the self and the other at the same time..i may fail in the end because plolitics is exercised quite ruthlessly in india and abroad.... but i dont regret about my position. at least i know what i should respect with love inder salim On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Inder Salim > > I wish I had understood what point you were trying to make. > > What I did notice is your quoting me partially and out of context and then using that to put a spin on my words so that you could indulge in innuendos and make judgements about me. > > I was talking of having respect for the 'constant political position' of people whoever it may be. Geelani was an example for the sake of comparing with (what I see as) hypocritical declamations of the "moderate" Hurriyatis (especially Umar Farooq) and their claims of their brand of the "Hurriyat" call being a 'secular' one. It is called 'munaafaqat'. > > Just to explain it further, I similarly have respect for the 'constant political position' of Yasin Malik in that he wants (or used to want) the erstwhile princely State of Jammu & Kashmir to be an Independent Country with it's territories freed from both Indian and Pakistani control. Again I say this at the risk of being lynched by my KP brethren. Yasin, in proclaiming his having eschewed violence was foolish enough to admit that he (and/or JKLF) had previous to that indulged in 'killings' > > I disagree with both positions, of Geelani and Yasin, but that does not stop me from acknowledging their constancy. > > Inder you talk about my 'positions' but you obviously have no idea of what they are. You only presume. > > Anyone who seeks to disturb the peace in my country India is for me an enemy of the nation. Anyone who seeks to break-up India or bring in violent divides between it's people is for me an enemy of India. They should be recognised as, dealt with and treated as enemies. Before your make another presumption, the 'recognising', 'dealing with' and 'treating' as enemies neither automatically means nor is suggested by me should be done by repressive means or incarceration or State Violence. > > The affiliations of these 'enemies' are of no importance. They could be from Hurriyat Conference, or JKLF or RSS or VHP or Bajrang Dal or SIMI or any other organisation. > > Kshmendra > > > > > --- On Sun, 7/6/08, inder salim wrote: > > From: inder salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 11:39 PM > > Dear Kshmendra > > I quote you, "but I have much more respect for the constant political > position of someone like Hurriyati hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani" > > just read your statment again and remember when Syed Ali Shah Geelani > too said similar about RSS. He really dislkes anything secular > because a religous stand is logical for both Geelani sahib and for > RSS. anything else is ambigous > > now i quote you again, "It has amused me more to see how easily the > likes of Umar Farooq, Prof Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other > Hurriyat 'moderates') are able to fool people into buying their > 'secular' credentials" > > just remember when Atal Behari Vajpayee wrote a poem about the sad > demolition of Babri Mosque...The words moistened the eyes of the > naive, but we knew how crocodile weeps... you also know it well > > now i know there are positions, well you are within your rights to > hold one ... that is ok > > i just met a kashmiri pandit who was demonstrating at jantar mantar > today.... and i sarcastically congratulated about the news KASHSMIR > PANDITOON NAY TODFOD KI, ( riots by kashmir pandits ) It is perhaps > for the first time i heard about such a news. He understood and > replied quickly... " if we dont resort to thes acts who will listen to > us, we are politically irrlevant in the present political > situation.... we need to read these situations quickly, and we do it > from time to time. " > > now see how their brother is the valley do the same things for their > own survial. for example PDP, who need to something from time to time > to stay in relevant in the volatite politcal games being played in the > valley..... what is so wrong about it if everything else is not. > > and once we are finished with these games.... only then we can being > to talk about ETHICS and MORALS > > > till then best > > inder salim > > > > >> > > > > On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 12:27 AM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: >> Dear Sonia >> >> There is nothing surprising in the religious place Hazrartbal being the > start-point for the 'victory' rally. It only reinforces the evaluation > that the 'victory' was sought by one religion over the other. For those > who achieved the 'victory', what better place to start the celebration > than a Shrine/Mosque. >> >> Our 'secular' commentators may spout various theories and analyses > but those who were a part of that 'victory' were obviously honest about > what they had achieved and in the name of which religion. >> >> Whether it has been the 1931 'bread movement' or the intense > rivalry between the 'sher' (of Sheikh Abdullah) and 'bakra' (of > Maulvi Farooq) or the Hurriyat (freedom/separatist) movement, the pulpits of > both Hazratbal and Jama Masjid have been used as much for political > speeches/sloganeering and calls for separatism as they have been for religious > sermons. >> >> It has always amused me to see Umar Farooq (as just one example among > others) indulge in such political speeches/sloganeering from Jama Masjid, or > visit and seek support from his Political Mecca of OIC (and/or Pakistan) and > yet at the same time hypocritically claim that the "Hurriyat" > movement is a secular one. >> >> It has amused me more to see how easily the likes of Umar Farooq, Prof > Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other Hurriyat 'moderates') are > able to fool people into buying their 'secular' credentials. >> >> My Kashmiri Pandit brethren might lynch me for saying this, but I have > much more respect for the constant political position of someone like Hurriyati > hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani (even if I disagree with his arguments) who is > firm in his belief that J&K as Muslim Majority 'territory' should > be a part of Pakistan. >> >> I am sure you did not mean to equate the situations but I found it strange > that you mentioned in the same breath the "peaceful... victory rally" > starting from Hazratbal with "siege of Hazrat Bal in the early '90s or > for that matter the siege of Charar e-Sharif in '95 or >> for that matter the Golden Temple in the '80s". >> >> In all three 'siege' mentioned, there were bands of armed > terrorists holed up inside the three religious places. Some might choose to > call them 'freedom fighters' or "Mujahideen". >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> >> --- On Sat, 7/5/08, S. Jabbar wrote: >> >> From: S. Jabbar >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 > injured >> To: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् " > , "sarai list" > >> Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 1:07 PM >> >> I think you may want to ask why it was necessary to begin a victory rally >> from a religious place and how any of us would have reacted if Advani were >> to embark on another 'victory' rally from Somnath or Ayodhya. > These >> so-called victory rallies will only add fuel to the Jammu-Kashmir/ >> Hindu-Muslim conflagration. >> >> Hazrat Bal and the Jama Masjid are not neutral sites and have been >> politically charged ever since the 1930s when the Quit Kashmir movement > was >> launched against the Maharaja. What must have started off as an equally >> 'peaceful' gathering turned violent and a man was killed. That > was >> reason >> enough for mass rioting. You may be aware of the siege of Hazrat Bal in > the >> early '90s or for that matter the siege of Charar e-Sharif in '95 > or >> for >> that matter the Golden Temple in the '80s. >> >> The Hurriyat is not unaware that the state cannot risk a religious site >> becoming another site of contestation. It would try and control what in > all >> likelihood would turn into yet another communally charged and violent > event. >> And yet it decided to go ahead. The stakes are high and I really > don't >> think anyone is above using religion to further their political ends. >> --sj >> >> >> On 7/5/08 12:43 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" >> wrote: >> >>> This is what happens when you prevent people from addressing >>> peaceful >> gatherings... >> >> >> o o o o >> >> >> Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among >>> 14 injured >> >> Special Correspondent, 5 July >>> 2008 >> http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/05/stories/2008070559931300.htm >> >> The clash >>> followed prayers to celebrate the "victory" in the land > transfer >>> issue >> >> >> SRINAGAR: Senior Hurriyat Conference leader Shabir Shah was among >>> 14 >> people injured on Friday, following a scuffle between police and >> supporters >>> of separatist leaders after they offered prayers at the >> Hazratbal shrine to >>> celebrate the recent "victory" in the land >> transfer issue. >> >> The call for >>> "Hazratbal Chalo" was given by Syed Ali Geelani, head of >> a faction of the >>> Hurriyat Conference and supported by Mirwaiz Umar >> Farooq, head of another. >>> However, both were placed under house arrest >> by the police. Mr. Shah and other >>> leaders, however, reached Hazratbal >> amid heavy deployment of police and >>> paramilitary CRPF and offered >> prayers besides addressing the people. >> >> Mr. Shah >>> and Ashraf Sehrai, another senior leader denounced the >> government for putting >>> Mr. Geelani and Mr. Mirwaiz under house arrest. >> >> A protester hurls back a tear >>> smoke shell towards the police. >> >> On their way back, Mr. Shabir Shah, Mr. >>> Sehrai, Naeem Khan, Sheikh >> Aziz, Shafi Reshi, Firdous Shah and others led a >>> strong procession, >> which was lathi-charged. >> >> Fourteen people, including Mr. >>> Shabir Shah, were injured. He was >> shifted to the S.K. Institute of Medical >>> Sciences (SKIMS) for >> treatment. >> >> Even as rumours spread that he was critical, >>> Director SKIMS Abdul >> Hamid Zargar told The Hindu that he was stable. Another >>> procession >> taken from Jamia Masjid and led by the head imam, was dispersed >>> by >> police with smoke shells. Many people were arrested. Another >>> Hurriyat >> leader Javed Mir was arrested when he tried to take out a >>> procession >> towards Hazratbal in Khanyar >>> area. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open >>> discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To >>> subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe >> in >>> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >>> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From wanderlustt at rediffmail.com Mon Jul 7 19:40:36 2008 From: wanderlustt at rediffmail.com (Nomad) Date: 7 Jul 2008 14:10:36 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Clean Up, but dont touch the panes ! Message-ID: <20080707141036.35558.qmail@f5mail-236-237.rediffmail.com> It was 06.07.08 yesterday. At 12 Akbar Road, it was a spontaneous outburst of natural instinct when a few flower pots were accidentally knocked down and cracked as the people marched into the house of our fatherly Union Minister for Water Resources. Instinctively a few people bent down to pick the broken pieces and make the place as spick and span as before they had entered , like any disciplined and well brought up Pandit kid would do. Unfortunately a few pieces in this clean up process got misdirected and broke a couple of window panes of Mr Soz's outhouse which happened to lie somewhere between the driveway and the dustbin. After that like good hearted romantic movie protagnists, 50 of these pandit kids decided that they could just sit down and raise slogans while someone came out to take the memorandum from the house. This belief was reinforced by the fact that they were casually let into the house. I am sure all of you know, an Akbar Road gate can not just open by the mere push of eight KP's, six of whom happened to be of the feminine gender including a couple with lap babies. And then in true movie style the police arrived around 50 minutes late, and then they even allowed these kids to leisurely set a few scraps of paper on fire that was the memorandum that might have been submitted if any well meaning staff of of Mr. Soz would have come out. But unfortunately, Mr Kutty was too busy thinking whether to use force on these kids or not and how would his reaction have been if Mr Soz was inside the house. Eventually when enough damaging evidence was recorded of Hoodlum Pandits and the voice overs of some old debates between Imam of Jama Masjid in Delhi and Praveen Bhai Togadia of VHP added, the video was sent to Greater Kashmir for bringing out its article. Thats where the slogans of "Down with Pseudo-Secularists", "Dont Let Al-Qaeda spoil Kashmiriyat" were in a single brush stroke beautifully painted into "Provocative Slogans" by the revered copy writers of Greater Kashmir. And we can't blame them, after all every one fears the Gun especially when it can anytime-any place be used to turn the editor into a historic "Vaadi Ki Awaaz" I heard while Pandit Kids whom dear minister considered his own were enjoying the hospitality of Delhi Police under his able and direct guidance; Yaseen Mallik, Syed Ali Shah Geelani and others were singing a small little Happy Birthday Song for that wonderful toy called AK-47. It turned 61 years old yesterday. Long Live "Sufi"din Soz, Long Live Kashmiriyat!!! Regards, Nishant Oh and by the way, since this place is full of creative people, i was wondering if anyone can tell me how does one Act in a fashion that can be described as spontaneous display of emotions? I mean it has been a long time since someone other than the King Khans have been given that review. From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Mon Jul 7 20:16:34 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 19:46:34 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Behen Sonia, in life there is nothing that is absolute but faith, faith in rule of laws in democratic life. As to your question about being reactions to violence to my person, property, friends, community, it only goes to show that we as citizens have started loosing faith in rule of laws in democratic life, no, I have not lost faith in rule of law, even when personal injury, friends injury, property damage, community under attack, my redressal will be thru laws of the land, not taking law INTO MY hands. Yes, I will draw attention when such redressal is delayed by the system of of which I am part of, yes, I will protest with loud voice., but not with violence, for if every one seeks redressal by taking law in their own hands, who will abide by the laws. ? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: "S. Jabbar" Date: Monday, July 7, 2008 11:30 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Cc: Sarai > Dear Radhika, > > The cannon off my shoulder was only a turn of phrase, and not a > questionabout your faith in violence. You may choose to see this > post as another > 'outburst,' but since you have simultaneously declared your faith in > non-violence and in Narendra Modi it's got me curious. > > Is your faith in ahimsa absolute? Do you believe in it as a > fundamentalprinciple or is it dependent on circumstances? For > instance, if there is > violence against your person, family, property, friend, community, > do you > believe in hitting back or do you restrain the impulse because of your > belief in violence begetting more violence? > > From what you've written it seems that you would believe in > restraint. In > which case I'm baffled by your defence of Mr. Action-Reaction > Modi. Do you > live in Gujarat? Even if you don't, I've read from your posts > that you > are/were a journalist and so must have followed the Gujarat events > closely. > Regardless of Modi's track record in governance I'm surprised and > dismayedthat you refuse to condemn his hand in the murder of more > than a thousand > citizens of this country in an event that can only be described as > a pogrom. > > From the indoctrination camps amongst adivasis in the Dangs, to > pre-Godhra > where gangs of so-called kar sevaks were already causing havoc in > Faizabad-Ayodhya, to Godhra, where it is still a mystery as to how > a crowd > managed to burn down an entire coach in a train that was moving, > to the > post- Godhra 'action-reaction' that went on for weeks, to the > actions of the > Police that refused to curb rioters, help victims, or cooperate > with the > army when the central government was forced to call it out, to the > campswhere victims were forced to stay for months on end and no > steps were taken > to rehabilitate them, all of this was under the able > administration of Modi. > Four days after the violence was unleashed Geoge Fernandes as Defence > Minister went to Gujarat to assess the situation. He was nearly > lynchedwhen he tried to stop a crowd of Bajrang Dalis out on their > sacred mission > to loot, kill and rape. > > I went with a small delegation of citizens to meet the PM. He > tried to make > out that the whole thing (on day 4) was the creation of the media > and that > things were not so bad. When we challenged him he admitted things > werepretty bad. When we asked why, when SIMI could be banned that the > VHP-Bajrang Dal gangs in Gujarat could not, especially in this > crisis, he > said that such things were difficult to do because 'we were a > democracy.'My answer to Vajpayee about the nature of our dubious > democracy is no doubt > recorded in some file, somewhere, but that is neither here nor > there. By > day 4 it was clear to many people in this country, that like 1984, the > Gujarat 'riots' was sponsored by the party in power to gain in the > forthcoming elections, which it did. > > In victory Modi could have been more generous with the victims of > violencebut he chose not to be. The way the courts in Gujarat > operated post the > violence was hardly the mark of a well-governed state. The only > case that > was concluded successfully was the Bilquis Bano case where the > woman saw 12 > family members being butchered in front of her before she was brutally > gang-raped. Because your courageous Narendrabhai refused to take > responsibility for her safety against the thugs in his party who > threatenedher life if she dared to depose before the court and the > judges in Gujarat > who were noted by the Supreme Court to be acting prejudicially, > the case had > to be transferred to Bombay. Bilquis had to be moved from safe > house to > safe house across our so-called free country until the judgment. > > Can Muslims live in Gujarat without fear, and as equal citizens in > a country > that you yourself have observed is their country of choice, or > must they > forever cower in their ghettoes in fear? Governance is not only about > bijli, pani, sadak. Leaders, particularly those whom we call > courageous,are not supposed to be leading mobs to the charge and > justifying their > outrageous behaviour with talk of Gujarati Asmita. > > Whether it is '47, '84, '92, 2002, and all the other big & small > communalor caste pogroms that have caused death, injury, fear, > distrust and > destruction, they need to be soundly condemned, regardless of the > identityof the perpetrator or the victim. Particularly from those > of us who think > of themselves as practitioners of ahimsa. > > --sj > > On 7/6/08 2:22 PM, "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" > wrote: > > Behen Sonia, > > > > at the outset, let me assure you I do not need your shoulder > to put my gun > > on. For the simple reason, I do not have faith in violence and from > > experience, of all humans, it is wellknown truth that violence > begets more > > violence, as my faith is in pen, is mightier than sword, but > intelligent pen > > can make changes in society without violence. ! > > > > As to your outburst about self appointed muslim leaders names > are many, but > > relevant ones are that of Owaisi,Banatwala, Jaffer Sharief, > Saman Khurshid to > > name a few, who are disliked by both hindus and muslims in their > outbursts> against the faith in their self styled kafir outbursts, > same is the story for > > the togadia and the like, but I do not agree when you classify > Modi in the > > list, for the simple reason that perhaps in free India, he is > the only CM who > > had courage to act without fear or favour to control mobs of > hindus or muslims > > in riots, inspite of psuedo secular media baying for him. > Muslims neglected in > > development over the years with lack of education except the > scriptures, and > > hard ways of life making a 12 year old slog for dharma as it is > called for > > apprenticeship in mechanic or tyre repair shop, working for a > pittance is > > tragedy that needs to be addressed just as the poor hindu boy > slogging it out > > in hotels as cleaners. when bad governance does not take care > > of education and right to have a decent earning opportunity for all. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "S. Jabbar" > > Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 10:22 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal > > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > Cc: sarai list > > > >> Behen Radhika, > >> > >> Which Hindus dislike self-appointed Muslim leaders? Yourself, some > >> others,all 800 plus million in this country? > >> > >> Which Hindus dislike self-appointed Hindu leaders? For instance, > >> Togadiaand Singhal are all self-appointed leaders of something > >> they call the VHP or > >> World Hindu Organisation. Do they represent all Hindus across the > >> globe (I > >> don't think any of my neighbours or friends were asked to vote) or > >> do all > >> Hindus like these self-appointed Hindu leaders just because they > >> happen not > >> to be Muslim? In which case what percentage of the 800+ million > >> do you > >> reckon? > >> > >> And conversely do all Muslims therefore like self-appointed Muslim > >> leaders?What percent of Muslims dislike self-appointed Muslim > >> leaders or for that > >> matter self-appointed Zoroastrian, Manichean or Nath sadhu leaders? > >> > >> Do you see where my logic is leading? > >> To nowhere, to a dead-end, at best to cuckoo land. I'm afraid > >> since it > >> mirrors yours you can draw conclusions about how you sound to > others.>> > >> Now you are entitled to your opinions, but it bothers me when > >> people can't > >> come up with examples of their own and choose to fire their > >> cannons off my > >> shoulder. > >> > >> By your logic if the 133 million Muslims of India went on a > >> rampage every > >> Friday this country would, no doubt, be beset by 'action- > >> reactions' every > >> weekend. I know I goofed off yesterday, didn't attend Jumma > >> namaz, snoozed > >> the afternoon off instead and then watched Wimbledon all evening > >> (where our > >> only female tennis star was absent, no doubt because she was out > >> burningdown a tennis stadium after Friday prayers), but when it > >> came to the news > >> this morning, the papers only had stories of rampaging Hindu mobs > >> in Indore > >> and in Jammu. > >> > >> In fact, in Indore, the mob surrounded a Hindu jeweler and bullied > >> him to > >> the point where he poured kerosene on himself and set himself > alight.>> Scanning the papers I was convinced it was the beasts > who ran out > >> afterFriday prayers and lynched him, but no, they were not Salims, > >> Hanifs or > >> Aslams but mini Rajs, Bals, Narendras and Lal Krishnas, bless > >> their little > >> souls. > >> > >> Yesterday's HT had an interesting layout in their the edit page, > >> and I'd > >> urge people to look at it There were 2 unrelated photographs, but > >> both as > >> uncannily similar and different as they can get. > >> > >> One had three or four small Chinese kids (5 or 6 yr olds) in a > >> provincialschool in China. The blurb explained: these were > >> special sports schools in > >> the provinces (not just the metropolises, mind you), geared to > train>> children to excel in sports. This photo showed potential > Olympic star > >> gymnasts stretching their limbs. One was bent down, two stretched > >> theirarms sky high. > >> > >> The other photograph needed no blurb. It is something we see > >> every other > >> day splashed across Indian newspapers: 3 old, bearded men, > vermillion>> smeared across their foreheads, mouths contorted into > a ghastly O, > >> handsraised to the sky-- no, no, not doing gymnastics, but in > >> outrage about their > >> religious rights. Now you can switch the costume, replace the > >> tika with a > >> green cap or a turban and lo! You have the picture of our great > >> democracyand people's right to get outraged, and the right to burn > >> shops, beat up > >> passers by, pelt stones, close down highways and schools and > >> generally have > >> the time of their lives whether it is about a cartoon or whether > >> it is a > >> canvas, a mosque, gurudwara or a temple.... And all of us tearing > >> our hair > >> out & wasting our time & energy on these useless debates... > >> > >> In the meanwhile there will be other countries where children will > >> wake up > >> after a good night's sleep, eat a full breakfast, drink clean > >> water, have > >> access to toilets and showers, wear clean clothes, go to school, > >> study, and > >> then go to train to become the best a human being can become, > >> whether in the > >> arts or sciences or sport. > >> > >> Best > >> sj > >> > >> > >> On 7/5/08 1:42 PM, "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" > >> wrote: > >>> Behen Sonia, > >>> > >>> this is precisely why hindus dislike the self appointed muslim > >> leaders who > >>> use religious places not for prayer but for confrontation with > >> other followers > >>> of different faith. On friday, we always see the unruly mob > >> getting infuriated > >>> by the leaders and provokes into show off the united strength on > >> unleashing> the mob fury. Even if the population is hardly 17 > >> percent of one billion, on > >>> fridays it becomes a potent force of damage to national unity at > >> the behest of > >>> self appointed leaders, unlike hindus who go to temple at the > >> their choice on > >>> different day, too many deities and too many worshippers on too > >> different> shrines but altogether not enough to damage the nation. > >> That is why the > >>> attitude of such muslim leaders who use the poor muslim on his > >> /her faith to > >>> be anti-national are hated. > >>> > >>> regards. > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "S. Jabbar" > >>> Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 1:21 pm > >>> Subject: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal > >>> To: sarai list > >>> > >>>> Hurriyat Seizes Hazratbal Stage > >>>> > >>>> Srinagar, July 04, KONS: Brushing aside the Waqf Board¹s > >> resistance,>> Hurriyat leaders today took hold of the politically > >> potent>> Hazratbal stage > >>>> in a bid to make an unmistakable display of their public > clout in > >>>> Kashmir.The shrine has been a centre of public movements for > >>>> decades, successively > >>>> and artfully used by major political figures, Sheikh Muhammad > >> Abdullah>> included, to retain their hold on the masses. > >>>> After falling into the militant lap during the early > nineties, the > >>>> currentrulers of the state tried to de-politicize it by > >>>> overhauling its management > >>>> system by replacing the NC-backed Muslim Auqaf Trust with the > >>>> seeminglyneutral Waqf Board. > >>>> Both Mufti Muhammad Sayeed and Ghulam Nabi Azad have scrupulously > >>>> avoidedturning the shrine into a platform for themselves, perhaps > >>>> out of the > >>>> conviction that it was a double-edged sword which their > opponents,>>>> bothmainstream and separatist, could turn against them. > >>>> But the tide seemed to have turned today, despite the Waqf > Board¹s>>>> warningthe other day that Hazratbal would not be > allowed to be > >>>> used for political > >>>> activities. > >>>> Filling in for their respective chairmen, senior Hurriyat > leaders,>>>> ShabirAhmad Shah and Muhammad Ashraf Sahrai, > addressed the > >>>> congregation at > >>>> Hazratbal in defiance of the government-controlled Waqf Board¹s > >>>> ban on > >>>> political activity at the holy shrine. > >>>> Shah said that the people of the state were united and ready to > >>>> counter any > >>>> conspiracy. > >>>> Calling for a total boycott of the forthcoming assembly > elections,>>>> Shahsaidthat polls were not a solution to the > Kashmir issue and > >>>> ³we cannot benefit > >>>> India by taking part in the polls in a betrayal of the > >> sacrifices of > >>>> martyrs.² > >>>> ³Boycott is a powerful and peaceful weapon in the hands of the > >>>> people by > >>>> which they can counter Indian propaganda on Kashmir,² he said. > >>>> Referring to the land transfer issue, Shah said that it was > not a > >>>> matter of > >>>> land alone but a question of the national identity of Kashmiris > >>>> for which > >>>> the entire state had marched with steeled breasts. > >>>> ³We are not against the yatra, nor do we want to harm the yatris, > >>>> and the > >>>> Kashmiris have proved it in the recent days,² he said. > >>>> ³It is unfortunate that Muslims are being targeted with violence > >>>> in Jammu, > >>>> and the police is a mute spectator, even though no yatri or > >>>> tourist suffered > >>>> as much as a scratch in the nine days of agitation in the > valley,²>>>> he said. > >>>> Attacking pro-India parties, Shah said that they had been exposed > >>>> and that > >>>> the people had realized that they were out to barter away > Kashmiri>>>> land.³In the present circumstances, people should > take timely and > >>>> correctdecisions, as even a minor mistake can prove to be a heavy > >>>> burden on coming > >>>> generations,² he said. > >>>> Condemning the aggressive designs of the extremist Hindu parties, > >>>> he said > >>>> that they had begun to serve their ends by giving communal colour > >>>> to even > >>>> peaceful issues. > >>>> ³They are spawning hatred in the name of religion. The people of > >>>> Jammu and > >>>> Kashmir will have to defeat their plots,² he said. > >>>> Geelani¹s right hand man, Muhammad Ashraf Sahrai, said that > >>>> Kashmiris would > >>>> complete the mission of the martyrs as they had offered immense > >>>> sacrificesduring the ongoing struggle and there would be no > >>>> compromise on these > >>>> sacrifices. > >>>> The congregation also offered thanksgiving prayers over the > >>>> success of the > >>>> public agitation against the transfer of land to the Shrine > Board.>>>> > >>>> From the Kashmir Observer > >>>> > >>>> _________________________________________ > >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >>>> list > >>>> List archive: > >> > >> > >> > > > From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Mon Jul 7 20:23:09 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 19:53:09 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Behen Sonia, you talk of Modi as if you have seen himself leading the mob in riots, which is partisan way of "secular media", which is really disgusting because the secular media of which the anchors like Rajdeep and Barkha are celebs because they speak like that at the utter disgust and dismay of law abiding citizens, then these anchors hide behind the label of being "journalists"., to receive Padma awards for the favours extended. Modi did not lead the rioting mobs of the any community like Sajjan Kumar, Jagadeesh Tytler or like the kamalnaths, to be elected as CM, He has discharged his duty as CM for all his citizens, but media harped on miseries on one community only, never about the deaths of other citizens as they would not get them TRP., perhaps. ! Did you see single coverage of 57 dead or their families in the misery in any of the channels ? Regargs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "S. Jabbar" Date: Monday, July 7, 2008 11:30 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Cc: Sarai > Dear Radhika, > > The cannon off my shoulder was only a turn of phrase, and not a > questionabout your faith in violence. You may choose to see this > post as another > 'outburst,' but since you have simultaneously declared your faith in > non-violence and in Narendra Modi it's got me curious. > > Is your faith in ahimsa absolute? Do you believe in it as a > fundamentalprinciple or is it dependent on circumstances? For > instance, if there is > violence against your person, family, property, friend, community, > do you > believe in hitting back or do you restrain the impulse because of your > belief in violence begetting more violence? > > From what you've written it seems that you would believe in > restraint. In > which case I'm baffled by your defence of Mr. Action-Reaction > Modi. Do you > live in Gujarat? Even if you don't, I've read from your posts > that you > are/were a journalist and so must have followed the Gujarat events > closely. > Regardless of Modi's track record in governance I'm surprised and > dismayedthat you refuse to condemn his hand in the murder of more > than a thousand > citizens of this country in an event that can only be described as > a pogrom. > > From the indoctrination camps amongst adivasis in the Dangs, to > pre-Godhra > where gangs of so-called kar sevaks were already causing havoc in > Faizabad-Ayodhya, to Godhra, where it is still a mystery as to how > a crowd > managed to burn down an entire coach in a train that was moving, > to the > post- Godhra 'action-reaction' that went on for weeks, to the > actions of the > Police that refused to curb rioters, help victims, or cooperate > with the > army when the central government was forced to call it out, to the > campswhere victims were forced to stay for months on end and no > steps were taken > to rehabilitate them, all of this was under the able > administration of Modi. > Four days after the violence was unleashed Geoge Fernandes as Defence > Minister went to Gujarat to assess the situation. He was nearly > lynchedwhen he tried to stop a crowd of Bajrang Dalis out on their > sacred mission > to loot, kill and rape. > > I went with a small delegation of citizens to meet the PM. He > tried to make > out that the whole thing (on day 4) was the creation of the media > and that > things were not so bad. When we challenged him he admitted things > werepretty bad. When we asked why, when SIMI could be banned that the > VHP-Bajrang Dal gangs in Gujarat could not, especially in this > crisis, he > said that such things were difficult to do because 'we were a > democracy.'My answer to Vajpayee about the nature of our dubious > democracy is no doubt > recorded in some file, somewhere, but that is neither here nor > there. By > day 4 it was clear to many people in this country, that like 1984, the > Gujarat 'riots' was sponsored by the party in power to gain in the > forthcoming elections, which it did. > > In victory Modi could have been more generous with the victims of > violencebut he chose not to be. The way the courts in Gujarat > operated post the > violence was hardly the mark of a well-governed state. The only > case that > was concluded successfully was the Bilquis Bano case where the > woman saw 12 > family members being butchered in front of her before she was brutally > gang-raped. Because your courageous Narendrabhai refused to take > responsibility for her safety against the thugs in his party who > threatenedher life if she dared to depose before the court and the > judges in Gujarat > who were noted by the Supreme Court to be acting prejudicially, > the case had > to be transferred to Bombay. Bilquis had to be moved from safe > house to > safe house across our so-called free country until the judgment. > > Can Muslims live in Gujarat without fear, and as equal citizens in > a country > that you yourself have observed is their country of choice, or > must they > forever cower in their ghettoes in fear? Governance is not only about > bijli, pani, sadak. Leaders, particularly those whom we call > courageous,are not supposed to be leading mobs to the charge and > justifying their > outrageous behaviour with talk of Gujarati Asmita. > > Whether it is '47, '84, '92, 2002, and all the other big & small > communalor caste pogroms that have caused death, injury, fear, > distrust and > destruction, they need to be soundly condemned, regardless of the > identityof the perpetrator or the victim. Particularly from those > of us who think > of themselves as practitioners of ahimsa. > > --sj > > On 7/6/08 2:22 PM, "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" > wrote: > > Behen Sonia, > > > > at the outset, let me assure you I do not need your shoulder > to put my gun > > on. For the simple reason, I do not have faith in violence and from > > experience, of all humans, it is wellknown truth that violence > begets more > > violence, as my faith is in pen, is mightier than sword, but > intelligent pen > > can make changes in society without violence. ! > > > > As to your outburst about self appointed muslim leaders names > are many, but > > relevant ones are that of Owaisi,Banatwala, Jaffer Sharief, > Saman Khurshid to > > name a few, who are disliked by both hindus and muslims in their > outbursts> against the faith in their self styled kafir outbursts, > same is the story for > > the togadia and the like, but I do not agree when you classify > Modi in the > > list, for the simple reason that perhaps in free India, he is > the only CM who > > had courage to act without fear or favour to control mobs of > hindus or muslims > > in riots, inspite of psuedo secular media baying for him. > Muslims neglected in > > development over the years with lack of education except the > scriptures, and > > hard ways of life making a 12 year old slog for dharma as it is > called for > > apprenticeship in mechanic or tyre repair shop, working for a > pittance is > > tragedy that needs to be addressed just as the poor hindu boy > slogging it out > > in hotels as cleaners. when bad governance does not take care > > of education and right to have a decent earning opportunity for all. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "S. Jabbar" > > Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 10:22 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal > > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > Cc: sarai list > > > >> Behen Radhika, > >> > >> Which Hindus dislike self-appointed Muslim leaders? Yourself, some > >> others,all 800 plus million in this country? > >> > >> Which Hindus dislike self-appointed Hindu leaders? For instance, > >> Togadiaand Singhal are all self-appointed leaders of something > >> they call the VHP or > >> World Hindu Organisation. Do they represent all Hindus across the > >> globe (I > >> don't think any of my neighbours or friends were asked to vote) or > >> do all > >> Hindus like these self-appointed Hindu leaders just because they > >> happen not > >> to be Muslim? In which case what percentage of the 800+ million > >> do you > >> reckon? > >> > >> And conversely do all Muslims therefore like self-appointed Muslim > >> leaders?What percent of Muslims dislike self-appointed Muslim > >> leaders or for that > >> matter self-appointed Zoroastrian, Manichean or Nath sadhu leaders? > >> > >> Do you see where my logic is leading? > >> To nowhere, to a dead-end, at best to cuckoo land. I'm afraid > >> since it > >> mirrors yours you can draw conclusions about how you sound to > others.>> > >> Now you are entitled to your opinions, but it bothers me when > >> people can't > >> come up with examples of their own and choose to fire their > >> cannons off my > >> shoulder. > >> > >> By your logic if the 133 million Muslims of India went on a > >> rampage every > >> Friday this country would, no doubt, be beset by 'action- > >> reactions' every > >> weekend. I know I goofed off yesterday, didn't attend Jumma > >> namaz, snoozed > >> the afternoon off instead and then watched Wimbledon all evening > >> (where our > >> only female tennis star was absent, no doubt because she was out > >> burningdown a tennis stadium after Friday prayers), but when it > >> came to the news > >> this morning, the papers only had stories of rampaging Hindu mobs > >> in Indore > >> and in Jammu. > >> > >> In fact, in Indore, the mob surrounded a Hindu jeweler and bullied > >> him to > >> the point where he poured kerosene on himself and set himself > alight.>> Scanning the papers I was convinced it was the beasts > who ran out > >> afterFriday prayers and lynched him, but no, they were not Salims, > >> Hanifs or > >> Aslams but mini Rajs, Bals, Narendras and Lal Krishnas, bless > >> their little > >> souls. > >> > >> Yesterday's HT had an interesting layout in their the edit page, > >> and I'd > >> urge people to look at it There were 2 unrelated photographs, but > >> both as > >> uncannily similar and different as they can get. > >> > >> One had three or four small Chinese kids (5 or 6 yr olds) in a > >> provincialschool in China. The blurb explained: these were > >> special sports schools in > >> the provinces (not just the metropolises, mind you), geared to > train>> children to excel in sports. This photo showed potential > Olympic star > >> gymnasts stretching their limbs. One was bent down, two stretched > >> theirarms sky high. > >> > >> The other photograph needed no blurb. It is something we see > >> every other > >> day splashed across Indian newspapers: 3 old, bearded men, > vermillion>> smeared across their foreheads, mouths contorted into > a ghastly O, > >> handsraised to the sky-- no, no, not doing gymnastics, but in > >> outrage about their > >> religious rights. Now you can switch the costume, replace the > >> tika with a > >> green cap or a turban and lo! You have the picture of our great > >> democracyand people's right to get outraged, and the right to burn > >> shops, beat up > >> passers by, pelt stones, close down highways and schools and > >> generally have > >> the time of their lives whether it is about a cartoon or whether > >> it is a > >> canvas, a mosque, gurudwara or a temple.... And all of us tearing > >> our hair > >> out & wasting our time & energy on these useless debates... > >> > >> In the meanwhile there will be other countries where children will > >> wake up > >> after a good night's sleep, eat a full breakfast, drink clean > >> water, have > >> access to toilets and showers, wear clean clothes, go to school, > >> study, and > >> then go to train to become the best a human being can become, > >> whether in the > >> arts or sciences or sport. > >> > >> Best > >> sj > >> > >> > >> On 7/5/08 1:42 PM, "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" > >> wrote: > >>> Behen Sonia, > >>> > >>> this is precisely why hindus dislike the self appointed muslim > >> leaders who > >>> use religious places not for prayer but for confrontation with > >> other followers > >>> of different faith. On friday, we always see the unruly mob > >> getting infuriated > >>> by the leaders and provokes into show off the united strength on > >> unleashing> the mob fury. Even if the population is hardly 17 > >> percent of one billion, on > >>> fridays it becomes a potent force of damage to national unity at > >> the behest of > >>> self appointed leaders, unlike hindus who go to temple at the > >> their choice on > >>> different day, too many deities and too many worshippers on too > >> different> shrines but altogether not enough to damage the nation. =3E >> That is why the > >>> attitude of such muslim leaders who use the poor muslim on his > >> /her faith to > >>> be anti-national are hated. > >>> > >>> regards. > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "S. Jabbar" > >>> Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 1:21 pm > >>> Subject: [Reader-list] Not so peaceful message from Hazratbal > >>> To: sarai list > >>> > >>>> Hurriyat Seizes Hazratbal Stage > >>>> > >>>> Srinagar, July 04, KONS: Brushing aside the Waqf Board¹s > >> resistance,>> Hurriyat leaders today took hold of the politically > >> potent>> Hazratbal stage > >>>> in a bid to make an unmistakable display of their public > clout in > >>>> Kashmir.The shrine has been a centre of public movements for > >>>> decades, successively > >>>> and artfully used by major political figures, Sheikh Muhammad > >> Abdullah>> included, to retain their hold on the masses. > >>>> After falling into the militant lap during the early > nineties, the > >>>> currentrulers of the state tried to de-politicize it by > >>>> overhauling its management > >>>> system by replacing the NC-backed Muslim Auqaf Trust with the > >>>> seeminglyneutral Waqf Board. > >>>> Both Mufti Muhammad Sayeed and Ghulam Nabi Azad have scrupulously > >>>> avoidedturning the shrine into a platform for themselves, perhaps > >>>> out of the > >>>> conviction that it was a double-edged sword which their > opponents,>>>> bothmainstream and separatist, could turn against them. > >>>> But the tide seemed to have turned today, despite the Waqf > Board¹s>>>> warningthe other day that Hazratbal would not be > allowed to be > >>>> used for political > >>>> activities. > >>>> Filling in for their respective chairmen, senior Hurriyat > leaders,>>>> ShabirAhmad Shah and Muhammad Ashraf Sahrai, > addressed the > >>>> congregation at > >>>> Hazratbal in defiance of the government-controlled Waqf Board¹s > >>>> ban on > >>>> political activity at the holy shrine. > >>>> Shah said that the people of the state were united and ready to > >>>> counter any > >>>> conspiracy. > >>>> Calling for a total boycott of the forthcoming assembly > elections,>>>> Shahsaidthat polls were not a solution to the > Kashmir issue and > >>>> ³we cannot benefit > >>>> India by taking part in the polls in a betrayal of the > >> sacrifices of > >>>> martyrs.² > >>>> ³Boycott is a powerful and peaceful weapon in the hands of the > >>>> people by > >>>> which they can counter Indian propaganda on Kashmir,² he said. > >>>> Referring to the land transfer issue, Shah said that it was > not a > >>>> matter of > >>>> land alone but a question of the national identity of Kashmiris > >>>> for which > >>>> the entire state had marched with steeled breasts. > >>>> ³We are not against the yatra, nor do we want to harm the yatris, > >>>> and the > >>>> Kashmiris have proved it in the recent days,² he said. > >>>> ³It is unfortunate that Muslims are being targeted with violence > >>>> in Jammu, > >>>> and the police is a mute spectator, even though no yatri or > >>>> tourist suffered > >>>> as much as a scratch in the nine days of agitation in the > valley,²>>>> he said. > >>>> Attacking pro-India parties, Shah said that they had been exposed > >>>> and that > >>>> the people had realized that they were out to barter away > Kashmiri>>>> land.³In the present circumstances, people should > take timely and > >>>> correctdecisions, as even a minor mistake can prove to be a heavy > >>>> burden on coming > >>>> generations,² he said. > >>>> Condemning the aggressive designs of the extremist Hindu parties, > >>>> he said > >>>> that they had begun to serve their ends by giving communal colour > >>>> to even > >>>> peaceful issues. > >>>> ³They are spawning hatred in the name of religion. The people of > >>>> Jammu and > >>>> Kashmir will have to defeat their plots,² he said. > >>>> Geelani¹s right hand man, Muhammad Ashraf Sahrai, said that > >>>> Kashmiris would > >>>> complete the mission of the martyrs as they had offered immense > >>>> sacrificesduring the ongoing struggle and there would be no > >>>> compromise on these > >>>> sacrifices. > >>>> The congregation also offered thanksgiving prayers over the > >>>> success of the > >>>> public agitation against the transfer of land to the Shrine > Board.>>>> > >>>> From the Kashmir Observer > >>>> > >>>> _________________________________________ > >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >>>> list > >>>> List archive: > >> > >> > >> > > > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 7 20:44:43 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured In-Reply-To: <47e122a70807070630n3bded971xed644af70150bf46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <622627.51599.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Inder Salim   You say "i know you know well what i am talking about...."   No Sir I do not. Either we are talking about different things or it must be the limitations of my understanding.   It must also be the limitations of my being able to express myself that you read meanings other than what I think I have placed in my words.   - I do not know what "GAMES" you are talking about. If you explain them in simple words, I might be able to comment   - I spoke about "respect" for "constancy" in "political positions". That could or could not translate into "respect" for the person. That also does not preclude the ones being talked about being political adversaries or being enemies of my country   - Let me give another example.  I see China as being (if not an enemy these days) inimical towards India on many fronts. Yet I have immense respect for China in many spheres.   - Let me give another example. I see Pakistan as continuing to be an enemy of India. I have no respect for (I have contempt for) Pakistan's shifts over Kashmir especially in the context of it's duplicity with the "Hurriyat Pasand". Yet there are things about and from Pakistan I love. I love their Muslin and Men's Shalvaar Kameez, I love Mehdi Hassan and Nayyara Noor and Sabri Brothers, I love Faiz and Parveen Shakir and Amjad Islam Amjad   - Saw your list of those you respect. I have no argument with you over that list.   - You do not respect 'politicians'. For me that is too generalised a statement. Maybe I would not respect "some" or even "most" politicians" but the political system is essential (in my opinion) to any organised society. Irrespective of the form of Government or quality of Governance, every country has a political system. It has to have one. If there isn't one, there will be anarchy.  In the case of a "democracy", the politician is of critical importance to the citizen. The Constitution allows Laws, Laws take shape from Legislation, Legislation is enacted by Legislators, Legislators are Politicians. Every aspect of the quality of life in India (for example) is directly or indirectly affected on and effected by the Politicians. You may be dismissive of Politicians if you want to be. For me Politicians are extremely important entities to be evaluated and sieved in one's judgement.   - I am a firm believer that my final societal identity is the Passport I hold or am eligible for. All Inter- Nation interactions including those of their citizens are conditional to the Laws of each country. Yes I am a firm believer in 'nationalism'. I subscribe to Indian Nationalism. You perhaps are more tuned (correct if I have misheard the strains) into Kashmiri Nationalism. Only the forces of Nature respect no National Boundaries. All other aspects of our lives are linked to the country we belong to (because the Laws of the country govern every other aspect of our lives). Actually the Laws of a Country can even interfere with the reign of Nature, which is when Environmental Concerns take centre-stage.    - Is the "Kashmir issue" about "Ethics & Morals"? Perhaps it is to some degree in some areas. I see it more as being about "Rights and Responsibilities" and even more so as being "Political" and about "Religion"   - You speak about the Kashmiri "Muslims" having been disrespected.  I do not understand that judgement. Perhaps you might elaborate on how the "Muslims" of Kashmir have been "disrespected".    - You speak about the SASB affair having "undermined the sensitivity of ....  Muslims". Again I do not understand how SASB affair is linked with "Kashmiri Muslims". Unless of course you yourself subscribe to the view that the SASB affair was one of Muslims against Hindus.   (By your pointed reference to "Muslims" you seem to be in agreement with me that the "Kashmir Issue" is about "Religion")   - You speak about " 1990 disrespect to kashmiri pandits" being about "ethics and morals". Perhaps it is to some extent. I see it more as a Political affair. I see it more as failure of governance (both at the Centre and State) in having allowed a "fear atmosphere" to develop.      At least in this mail I see the point that you are trying to make. Correct me if I understood wrongly. You state that you "know" what you should "respect" and seem to suggest I do not "know". Fair enough. You are entitled to your judgement.     Kshmendra     --- On Mon, 7/7/08, inder salim wrote: From: inder salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 7:00 PM Dear kshmendra i quote myself and once we are finished with these games.... only then we can begin to talk about ETHICS and MORALS it is again your choice to ignore the most important line of my last post... i dont feel insecure .... i know you know well what i am talking about.... now see, you take a position with regard to 'Respect', you respect, i dont know whethere with capital R or with small r, but u respect the politicians who are against the occupation of indian foreces in kashmir.but strangely in the next line you think that they are enemies of the indian state and you are Indian, right . i on the contrary i dont respect a politican, ....... i have respect for a poet, a musician, an ariist, a social worker a simple worker, a job less man frustrated by the indiferent state. i respect a poor man on the road side, i respect a tribalman who is contantly being driven out of his ecology , i respect millions of landless people in india.... i have respect for the womens rights, i repect you has a human being and in that sense i respect a politician even. yes, i respect the morals and ethics, more than being a nationalist merely as an identity tag....i respect rebels...... i respect my teacher AK Mir who publically slapped Mufti Mohd Syed in Bijbehara because he as a Congress pradesh president masterminded 1986 communal riots.... i respect a petty theif who threw shit on the judge in delhi because he was languishing in the jail and could not afford to bail himself out. i have respect for the courage.... and similarly i have respect for those who uphold their existential beings wheenver the state or the power structures openly supress and disrespects the ethics and morals of the other.... that is why kashmir issue is about ethics and morals as well..... that is why the land transter to shrine board undermined the sensitivity of the already disrespected kashmiri muslims... that is why 1990 disrespect to kashmiri pandits is also about ethics and morals as well.. i see human being through this prism of ethics and morals ... i mix love with it and see some possiblity to heal the self and the other at the same time..i may fail in the end because plolitics is exercised quite ruthlessly in india and abroad.... but i dont regret about my position. at least i know what i should respect with love inder salim On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Inder Salim > > I wish I had understood what point you were trying to make. > > What I did notice is your quoting me partially and out of context and then using that to put a spin on my words so that you could indulge in innuendos and make judgements about me. > > I was talking of having respect for the 'constant political position' of people whoever it may be. Geelani was an example for the sake of comparing with (what I see as) hypocritical declamations of the "moderate" Hurriyatis (especially Umar Farooq) and their claims of their brand of the "Hurriyat" call being a 'secular' one. It is called 'munaafaqat'. > > Just to explain it further, I similarly have respect for the 'constant political position' of Yasin Malik in that he wants (or used to want) the erstwhile princely State of Jammu & Kashmir to be an Independent Country with it's territories freed from both Indian and Pakistani control. Again I say this at the risk of being lynched by my KP brethren. Yasin, in proclaiming his having eschewed violence was foolish enough to admit that he (and/or JKLF) had previous to that indulged in 'killings' > > I disagree with both positions, of Geelani and Yasin, but that does not stop me from acknowledging their constancy. > > Inder you talk about my 'positions' but you obviously have no idea of what they are. You only presume. > > Anyone who seeks to disturb the peace in my country India is for me an enemy of the nation. Anyone who seeks to break-up India or bring in violent divides between it's people is for me an enemy of India. They should be recognised as, dealt with and treated as enemies. Before your make another presumption, the 'recognising', 'dealing with' and 'treating' as enemies neither automatically means nor is suggested by me should be done by repressive means or incarceration or State Violence. > > The affiliations of these 'enemies' are of no importance. They could be from Hurriyat Conference, or JKLF or RSS or VHP or Bajrang Dal or SIMI or any other organisation. > > Kshmendra > > > > > --- On Sun, 7/6/08, inder salim wrote: > > From: inder salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 11:39 PM > > Dear Kshmendra > > I quote you, "but I have much more respect for the constant political > position of someone like Hurriyati hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani" > > just read your statment again and remember when Syed Ali Shah Geelani > too said similar about RSS. He really dislkes anything secular > because a religous stand is logical for both Geelani sahib and for > RSS. anything else is ambigous > > now i quote you again, "It has amused me more to see how easily the > likes of Umar Farooq, Prof Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other > Hurriyat 'moderates') are able to fool people into buying their > 'secular' credentials" > > just remember when Atal Behari Vajpayee wrote a poem about the sad > demolition of Babri Mosque...The words moistened the eyes of the > naive, but we knew how crocodile weeps... you also know it well > > now i know there are positions, well you are within your rights to > hold one ... that is ok > > i just met a kashmiri pandit who was demonstrating at jantar mantar > today.... and i sarcastically congratulated about the news KASHSMIR > PANDITOON NAY TODFOD KI, ( riots by kashmir pandits ) It is perhaps > for the first time i heard about such a news. He understood and > replied quickly... " if we dont resort to thes acts who will listen to > us, we are politically irrlevant in the present political > situation.... we need to read these situations quickly, and we do it > from time to time. " > > now see how their brother is the valley do the same things for their > own survial. for example PDP, who need to something from time to time > to stay in relevant in the volatite politcal games being played in the > valley..... what is so wrong about it if everything else is not. > > and once we are finished with these games.... only then we can being > to talk about ETHICS and MORALS > > > till then best > > inder salim > > > > >> > > > > On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 12:27 AM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: >> Dear Sonia >> >> There is nothing surprising in the religious place Hazrartbal being the > start-point for the 'victory' rally. It only reinforces the evaluation > that the 'victory' was sought by one religion over the other. For those > who achieved the 'victory', what better place to start the celebration > than a Shrine/Mosque. >> >> Our 'secular' commentators may spout various theories and analyses > but those who were a part of that 'victory' were obviously honest about > what they had achieved and in the name of which religion. >> >> Whether it has been the 1931 'bread movement' or the intense > rivalry between the 'sher' (of Sheikh Abdullah) and 'bakra' (of > Maulvi Farooq) or the Hurriyat (freedom/separatist) movement, the pulpits of > both Hazratbal and Jama Masjid have been used as much for political > speeches/sloganeering and calls for separatism as they have been for religious > sermons. >> >> It has always amused me to see Umar Farooq (as just one example among > others) indulge in such political speeches/sloganeering from Jama Masjid, or > visit and seek support from his Political Mecca of OIC (and/or Pakistan) and > yet at the same time hypocritically claim that the "Hurriyat" > movement is a secular one. >> >> It has amused me more to see how easily the likes of Umar Farooq, Prof > Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other Hurriyat 'moderates') are > able to fool people into buying their 'secular' credentials. >> >> My Kashmiri Pandit brethren might lynch me for saying this, but I have > much more respect for the constant political position of someone like Hurriyati > hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani (even if I disagree with his arguments) who is > firm in his belief that J&K as Muslim Majority 'territory' should > be a part of Pakistan. >> >> I am sure you did not mean to equate the situations but I found it strange > that you mentioned in the same breath the "peaceful... victory rally" > starting from Hazratbal with "siege of Hazrat Bal in the early '90s or > for that matter the siege of Charar e-Sharif in '95 or >> for that matter the Golden Temple in the '80s". >> >> In all three 'siege' mentioned, there were bands of armed > terrorists holed up inside the three religious places. Some might choose to > call them 'freedom fighters' or "Mujahideen". >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> >> --- On Sat, 7/5/08, S. Jabbar wrote: >> >> From: S. Jabbar >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 > injured >> To: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् " > , "sarai list" > >> Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 1:07 PM >> >> I think you may want to ask why it was necessary to begin a victory rally >> from a religious place and how any of us would have reacted if Advani were >> to embark on another 'victory' rally from Somnath or Ayodhya. > These >> so-called victory rallies will only add fuel to the Jammu-Kashmir/ >> Hindu-Muslim conflagration. >> >> Hazrat Bal and the Jama Masjid are not neutral sites and have been >> politically charged ever since the 1930s when the Quit Kashmir movement > was >> launched against the Maharaja. What must have started off as an equally >> 'peaceful' gathering turned violent and a man was killed. That > was >> reason >> enough for mass rioting. You may be aware of the siege of Hazrat Bal in > the >> early '90s or for that matter the siege of Charar e-Sharif in '95 > or >> for >> that matter the Golden Temple in the '80s. >> >> The Hurriyat is not unaware that the state cannot risk a religious site >> becoming another site of contestation. It would try and control what in > all >> likelihood would turn into yet another communally charged and violent > event. >> And yet it decided to go ahead. The stakes are high and I really > don't >> think anyone is above using religion to further their political ends. >> --sj >> >> >> On 7/5/08 12:43 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" >> wrote: >> >>> This is what happens when you prevent people from addressing >>> peaceful >> gatherings... >> >> >> o o o o >> >> >> Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among >>> 14 injured >> >> Special Correspondent, 5 July >>> 2008 >> http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/05/stories/2008070559931300.htm >> >> The clash >>> followed prayers to celebrate the "victory" in the land > transfer >>> issue >> >> >> SRINAGAR: Senior Hurriyat Conference leader Shabir Shah was among >>> 14 >> people injured on Friday, following a scuffle between police and >> supporters >>> of separatist leaders after they offered prayers at the >> Hazratbal shrine to >>> celebrate the recent "victory" in the land >> transfer issue. >> >> The call for >>> "Hazratbal Chalo" was given by Syed Ali Geelani, head of >> a faction of the >>> Hurriyat Conference and supported by Mirwaiz Umar >> Farooq, head of another. >>> However, both were placed under house arrest >> by the police. Mr. Shah and other >>> leaders, however, reached Hazratbal >> amid heavy deployment of police and >>> paramilitary CRPF and offered >> prayers besides addressing the people. >> >> Mr. Shah >>> and Ashraf Sehrai, another senior leader denounced the >> government for putting >>> Mr. Geelani and Mr. Mirwaiz under house arrest. >> >> A protester hurls back a tear >>> smoke shell towards the police. >> >> On their way back, Mr. Shabir Shah, Mr. >>> Sehrai, Naeem Khan, Sheikh >> Aziz, Shafi Reshi, Firdous Shah and others led a >>> strong procession, >> which was lathi-charged. >> >> Fourteen people, including Mr. >>> Shabir Shah, were injured. He was >> shifted to the S.K. Institute of Medical >>> Sciences (SKIMS) for >> treatment. >> >> Even as rumours spread that he was critical, >>> Director SKIMS Abdul >> Hamid Zargar told The Hindu that he was stable. Another >>> procession >> taken from Jamia Masjid and led by the head imam, was dispersed >>> by >> police with smoke shells. Many people were arrested. Another >>> Hurriyat >> leader Javed Mir was arrested when he tried to take out a >>> procession >> towards Hazratbal in Khanyar >>> area. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open >>> discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To >>> subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe >> in >>> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >>> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Jul 7 21:05:50 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:05:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?Kashmiris_lay_siege_on_water_minister?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_house=2C_50_in_custody?= Message-ID: <9c06aab30807070835k3671014ah6a10b9e3080a6c8b@mail.gmail.com> Kashmiris lay siege on water minister's house, 50 in custody Express News Service Posted online: Monday , July 07, 2008 at 10:21:00 Updated: Monday , July 07, 2008 at 10:21:00 http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Kashmiris-lay-siege-on-water-ministers-house-50-in-custody/332201/ New Delhi, July 6 Around 50 Kashmiris laid siege on the official residence of Union Water Resources Minister, Saifuddin Soz, on Sunday afternoon in protest against the Jammu and Kashmir Government's decision to cancel the transfer of over 39 hectares of forestland to the Amarnath Shrine Board. They shouted slogans and clashed with police officers. The Tuglaq Road police had not registered a case till late evening, though the protestors have been taken into police custody. According to the police, the incident occurred around 4 pm when protestors stormed the 12, Akbar Road residence of Soz, broke flowerpots and window panes amid slogan shouting against the state government. Police officers said protestors also clashed with the police, who rushed to the spot to detain them. The protestors, on the other hand, claimed their protest was peaceful, but the police used force against women and the elderly, which led to clashes. Members of the NGO, 'Roots in Kashmir', were protesting against the recent state government decision to revoke the transfer of forest land to the Amarnath Shrine Board for development activities. The decision had sparked violent protests across the Valley and the PDP pulled out of the ruling coalition. Aditya Raj Kaul, a 'Roots in Kashmir' member, alleged the police beat up protestors mercilessly and some of them fell unconscious. The police have denied all allegations. They said after the incident security in and around 12, Akbar Road, has been tightened to thwart any untoward incident. "We have deployed more security personnel and increased patrolling in the area," senior police officers said. From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Jul 7 21:10:15 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:10:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CRPF attacks journalists in Srinagar Message-ID: <9c06aab30807070840m76e1beffg141fc1d9215ae65c@mail.gmail.com> In any other state capital, such an attack on journalists would have made headline news in the Delhi media. For Srinagar, silence. o o o o Media persons thrashed Div Com, IGP Promise Action Greater kashmir GK NEWS NETWORK http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=6_7_2008&ItemID=27&cat=1 Srinagar, July 5: Journalists on Saturday strongly condemned the use of brute force on them time and again by police and troops of Central Reserve Police Force to prevent them from discharging their professional duties. About 100 media men including photojournalists and videographers lashed out at police and troops. "Beating of photojournalists and videographers by police has become a routine for the past two months," said a journalist, adding that such actions were "highly condemnable." A case in point is when the CRPF troopers deployed near Nigin Club harassed two Greater Kashmir staffers, on their way home after the days work, last night. At about 11 p.m. the staffers were stopped by the troops and asked to board down their vehicle. They frisked the vehicle bearing registration No MH 04 AH 8817 and showered all sorts of questions like what they were doing and where there were going "so late." Even after the staffers disclosed their identity, the troopers responded with "What if you are from the Press?" When the staffers told them to contact their own PRO, the troopers made light of their own superior, saying, "Who is he, he must be sleeping with…" Detaining the staffers for half an hour more, unnecessarily, the troopers finally allowed them to proceed. Concerned over the growing incidents of harassment, a meeting was called today after six journalists were beaten by police and CRPF troops at Soura while covering the protests which erupted after fire broke out at the Jenab Sahib Shrine. The meeting urged the authorities to call an immediate halt to such incidents and restrain their personnel. After the meeting, the divisional commissioner, Mehboob Iqbal, and the inspector-general of police, S M Sahai, visited the Press Enclave this evening to ascertain the facts. "We'll take up the matter with the CRPF and police officials and see where the problem lies," Sahai assured the journalists. Mehboob Iqbal said: "We'll hold a meeting of the CRPF and police officials and also invite journalists to sort out the matter once for all." Meanwhile, Kashmir Press, the premier body of newspaper editors in Kashmir, on Saturday condemned the attack on media persons by CRPF at Jenab Sahib Soura. In a statement, President of the Association, Ghulam Hassan Kaloo, condemned the CRPF action on media persons and demanded a probe into the incident. "The association demands action as well as probe into the thrashing of media persons by CRPF and IG CRPF should take cognizance of the incidents where journalists are being targeted by his men," he said. Repeated attempts by Greater Kashmir to contact the inspector-general, CRPF, and his PRO failed. From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Jul 7 21:52:46 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:52:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Talibanisation of India In-Reply-To: <6353c690802220402n297cfab6jafb8b76cb8982251@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690802220402n297cfab6jafb8b76cb8982251@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807070922q532bbc92i6baa06d079959538@mail.gmail.com> > Pandits allege that some in the Dharmarth Trust management want to sell off > the property of the temple, valued at Rs 300 crore. Sadly, things haven't moved forward on this. Perhaps Kashmiri Pandit groups should protest against fellow Kashmiri Pandits who are selling off temple properties. best shivam On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 5:32 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Hope something is done to address this issue. > > - Aditya Raj Kaul > Campaign Blog - www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Nishant Dudha > Date: Feb 22, 2008 3:31 PM > Subject: Fwd: The Talibanisation of India > > > > Regret that this document is lengthy. However, it contains some important > facts and figures which should be available to each and every thinking > Indian irrespective of their religion to let them know what a scourge > Minortyism is and the potential it has for destroying our social fabric > and fuelling the growth of Hindu Fanaticism. > > If you do not know me well enough or have not received any mails from me in > a long time, the reason why this comes your way is because I reckon, this > impacts us all. > > Cheers! > Nishant > > *Copies of this memo have been forwarded to the President and Prime Minister > of India as also to the members of the Indian Parliament for their > information and necessary action.* > > > > *Letter to Shri Ghulam Nabi Azad, Chief Minister, Jammu & Kashmir State* > > > > *THE HINDU JAGRAN FORUM-USA* > > 3145 Gilbert Avenue, Roseburg, OR (USA) 97470 > > > > > > Subject: *Massive destruction of temples in J&K amounts to state sponsored > Talibanization of the state: These religious structures must be protected > against the predatory & illegal Sales, demolition and Vandalism and a Waqf > like Hindu Board be formed for their upkeep and governance.* > > > > Hon'ble Chief Minister Azad, > > > > Through this memo we would like to express our deep > disappointment, indignation and out right condemnation on behalf of a > billion members strong worldwide Hindu fraternity about the self > induced "*tactical > failure*" of the successive J&K governments in protecting the Hindu > community of Kashmir. Encouraged by the anti-secular, anti-minority and > Mogul like discriminative policies of the state government. Now these > Islamists, > who drove the non-Muslims out of the Kashmir region, have embarked upon the > illegal sale of Hindu temples and their properties. > > > > All these criminal activities by the Islamists represent the > extension of their foreign inspired "*civilizational* *war*" undertaken to > remove all traces of the historical Hindu past in the vale of Kashmir. > Massive protests by the remaining less than 5,000 Kashmiri Pandits in the > valley against criminally altering the socio-cultural complexion of Kashmir > has been of no avail. On the contrary these extremely vulnerable non-Muslim > Kashmiris have been exposed to serious threats by a very powerful "*Islamic > Land Mafia*" that if they do not stop protesting they would face dire > consequences like the rest of the exiled Pandit community. > > > > We have been given to understand that powerful interests in the > Muslim dominated State Legislature including the *Islamic Land Mafia*, > scuttled the legislation that was supposed to stop the illegal sale and/or > destruction of Hindu religious structures. Despite the state > government's "*verbal > assurances*" to protect temples & their properties nothing has been done to > save them. Even the promise to bring in legislation during the recent > assembly session to prevent sale of such properties was not fulfilled and > the legislature was allowed to adjourn sine die without the introduction of > the promised bill (attachment A). Obviously the assurance by the state > authorities has simply proved to be yet another tactic for buying time and > doing nothing. > > > > * 1) Govt. re-built Cherar-e-Shareef why not Hindu temples?* > > Chief Minister Azad when the Pakistani and indigenous Islamic > terrorists burnt and destroyed the holy shrine at Cherar-e-Shareef > responding to the public outcry the Indian as well as Kashmir governments > agreed to rebuild the shrine. Thereupon a team of engineering specialists > was detailed to visit some of the major Islamic states in Central Asian > region for examining their mosques in an attempt to select one of the best > of them as a model for building the new shrine at Cherar-e-Shareef. In the > final analysis that is exactly what was done. Based on this experience the > question that arises now is: if the officials could go to that extent for > pleasing and or appeasing the Muslim community why can't they re-build Hindu > temples destroyed in the wake of ethnic cleansing unleashed by the local and > foreign Jihadists? > > > > * 2) Govt. Talibanizing everything in Kashmir:* > > The former J&K Chief Minister Mufti Mohammad Sayeed's public > declaration describing Hari Parbat as *'Koh-i-Maran'* in 2005 could only be > termed as a shot in the arm of '*talibanization*' by the coalition > government. It is believed that the misguided Congress party has been > extending its tacit and full support to the People's Democratic Party (of > Mehbooba Mufti) – the political outfit that has been aggressively engaged in > systematically destroying the symbols of historical importance, cultural > pluralism and talibanizing everything in Kashmir," (attachment B). > > > > * 3) Hindu temples being destroyed on at an unprecedented Scale:* > > The process of desecration, loot, vandalizing and destruction of > temples has continued under the anti-Hindu Islamic rule through generations > with intent to wipe out all traces of religious and cultural symbols of > Hindus. These targets besides the temples included libraries, universities > and ashrams. After India achieved freedom and Kashmir acceded to the Union > of India in 1947 the destruction and desecration of temples under the new > Islamic regimes wearing secular turbans received added impetus and > acceleration. Temple lands, cremation grounds, etc. of Hindus were usurped > and utilized for expansion of the Islamic populace. The famous Bhairavnath > temple of Chattabal, Srinagar was locked up by the police. The judicial case > pending in court concerning this temple was never allowed to be decided. > Precious lands around Hari Parbat hill, Durganag temple of Srinagar and > lands at several Hindu places of worship in the Valley were slowly and > steadily turned into lands under occupation of the Muslim trusts > (Maqboozai-Ahali-Islam). > > > > In 1967, Shivala temple, Chotta Nazar, Srinagar was desecrated. > Again in 1984 Shri Hanuman temple at Hari Singh High Street was damaged and > in the same year Arya Samaj temple of Wazir Bagh, Srinagar was burnt down. > In view of the Islamic fundamentalist conspiracy against Hindus in general > and unqualified support for their plans from across the border, the law and > order situation in the Valley since 1986 deteriorated progressively and > temple desecration became the order of the day. Here are some of the glaring > examples that defy and shred into a million pieces the tall claims made by > the Muslim leaders of Kashmir about their dedication and adherence to > nationalism, multiculturalism, secularism, Kashmiriyat and religious > freedom: > > > > A) In February 1986 some 39 temples were destroyed in Anantnag, > Srinagar, Budgam, Kupwara and Baramula districts (attachment C). > > > > B) From 1987 to 1990 at least fifteen temples were destroyed > (attachment C). > > > > * C) Temples desecrated and damaged in Kashmir from 1990 to > December 1992* (attachment C) > > 1. DASHNAMI AKHARA, SRINAGAR > 2. GANPATYAR TEMPLE > 3. RAGHUNATH MANDIR, SRINAGAR > 4. SHIVA TEMPLE, JAWAHAR NAGAR, SRINAGAR > 5. HANUMAN MANDIR, SRINAGAR > 6. SHIVA TEMPLE, BARBAR SHAH, SRINAGAR > 7. JAI DEVI TEMPLE, BIJBEHARA > 8. VIJESHWAR TEMPLE, BIJBEHARA > 9. SHIVA MANDIR, BIJBEHARA > 10. RAGHUNATH TEMPLE, ANANTNAG > 11. GAUTAM NAG TEMPLE, ANANTNAG > 12. THREE TEMPLES OF LUKHBHAVAN, LARKIPURA, ANANTNAG > 13. WANPOH MANDIR, ANANTNAG > 14. SHAILPUTRI TEMPLE, BARAMULLA > 15. DAYALGAM MANDIR, ANANTNAG > 16. BHAIRAVANATH MANDIR, BARAMULLA > 17. BHAIRAVANATH MANDIR, SOPORE > 18. RUPABHAVANI MANDIR, VASAKURA > 19. KHIRBHAVANI MANDIR, GANDERBAL > 20. SHIVA TEMPLE, GANDERBAL > 21. MATTAN TEMPLE, ANANTNAG > > > > D) The *Minister of State for Home Affairs, Shri M.M. Jacob > disclosed in the Lok Sabha on 12-3-1993 that 38 Hindu places of worship were > damaged in J&K state, 13 in 1989, nine in 1990 and 16 in 1991.* > > > > E) There are reports of further destruction of some 39 temples in > Kashmir after December 6, 1992 for which FIR were filed (attachment C). > Please note that FIRs on all destruction cases were not filed with the > authorities in view of the complicity of the administration and warnings of > retaliation against the complainants by the Islamic terrorists. > > > > F) According to local eye witnesses accounts there were additional > 38 temples that were vandalized after December 6, 1992 (attachment C) > > > > These examples represent only a fraction of the systematic mass > destruction of temples in J&K after independence of India when the Islamists > assumed the total and unfettered control of the state. > > > > *4) The Indian Parliament adopted a law in 1991 specifically > requiring that* – "the status of religious places, as on August 15, 1947 > shall be retained". This pre-emptive measure was taken by the national > legislature anticipating possible dishonorable designs of trouble makers and > anti- national elements in various administrations. A faithful > implementation of these laws will require assuring the security and > restoration of the community based management of Hindu temples and their > estates. > > > > Sayeed had on June 20 described Hari Parbat as *'Koh-i-Maran'* and > a ministerial colleague of his had called Shankaracharya Hill *'Sulaiman > Teng'*. Have these short sighted Jihadis ever imagined as to what might > happen if the Indian nation, which is more than 83% Hindu, was to enforce > similar communal, vindictive and religious based punitive policies in India > and start undoing what the successive tyrannical Islamic regimes have done > to the Hindu nation? From that stand point aren't these fundamentalist, > irresponsible street politicians playing with the lives and welfare of the > 140 million Muslims of India? > > > > * 5) Mr. Chief Minister, government's indifference towards the > temple security and their functioning has been termed as its support to > persecution of Hindus and denial of their freedom of religion:* Govt. must > realize that the temples and their endowments have been built over the > centuries by our forefathers and therefore, it is the community which is > their real owner and which must have the final say in the management and > utilization of temple resources. > > > > Under the present circumstances it is obligatory upon the Govt. as > envisaged by the above referred Act passed by the Indian Parliament to > maintain the integrity of religious entities as it stood in 1947. Any > deviation from that will clearly be violation of the national law and the > will unambiguously expressed by the Indian Parliament. Therefore, it is > incumbent upon the Govt. to restore all the destroyed, vandalized, looted > and desecrated temples and their properties to their glory as it existed in > 1947 and hand them over to the Hindu community. Any thing less than that > will be unacceptable. > > > > * 6) Formation of a Waqf like autonomous Hindu Board for temples > governance under the Hindu community's guidance:* Mr. Chief Minister, we > strongly believe that for social issues, religious affairs, community > services and temple administration there must be a representative and an > autonomous Hindu Board with full jurisdiction over temple governance and > management. Accordingly we suggest that the representatives of shrines, > temples, Hindu community and state and national religious leaders, be > motivated to convene an assembly where they could be asked to take charge of > clearly defining legal and religious framework for the community governance > of temples and other religious places in the state. Since the universal > right of freedom to manage religious places is available to the Muslim > community which constitutes the majority in your state, there is absolutely > no justification to deny it to Hindus? > > > > * 7) The Govt. must make room for community's vital role in the > interim temple management through Hindu Advisory Councils:* Such Councils > could play a role in oversight and decision making process of the endowments > department and temple Trusts, where Councils elected or nominated by the > Community and state and national religious leaders could shoulder these > responsibilities. Additionally these Councils could also stop desecration > and decimation of the religious infrastructure by bringing these issues to > the notice of the Govt. and the public, and till an autonomous Board is > constituted for taking over the charge, like the Waqf Board. > > > > * 8) Hindus as a minority community in J&K need and must get > special protection:* In view of the internationally recognized ethnic > cleansing and genocide of Hindus in Kashmir it would have been most > desirable if the J&K Govt. had brought into play a policy of special > protection as well as financial support to the Hindus who are in a minority > - on the same basis as Muslims are allowed in the rest of India. We regret > to say that Hindus have been effectively cleansed out of the Kashmir Valley, > disenfranchised and now the focus seems to be on cleansing them out of Jammu > as well. The calculated lack of action by the state in this regard seems to > effectively contribute to the realization of the Jihadists objectives of the > talibanization of the state. > > > > * 9) Chief Minister Azad, for a starter may we request your urgent > attention for protecting Hindu temples and Hindu community properties* from > illegal sales and encroachment by urgently passing the Kashmiri Hindus > shrines and religious places Bill and take other administrative measures > like formation of a Waqf- like Hindu Board for their protection, > preservation and development. This will be in keeping with: a) high > standards of ethics, b) norms and practices in all open and democratic > societies; and, c) the secular Constitution of India. > > > > Needless to say that inaction by the state and continuing > demolition of Hindu religious infrastructure carries with it a serious > potential for a backlash with possibility of horrific consequences. The > privileges enjoyed by the Muslims as a minority community in India could > also become a subject matter of controversy if Hindus are continually > persecuted in the Muslim majority J&K state. It is also relevant to point > out that most of the budgetary expenditures in the J&K state are gifted by > the Indian Govt. with taxes mostly paid by Hindus. Surely these taxpayers do > not fund the Kashmir Govt. so it could destroy Hinduism and achieve forced > talibanization of the state. > > > > Thank you Mr. Chief Minister and we are looking forward to your > response and prompt action towards resolving this explosive situation. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Dr. Jagan Kaul > Krishan Bhatnagar > Hindu Jagran Forum (USA) > > email: *krishan.kb at verizon.net > *February 21, 2008 > > > > ============================================================ > > > > Attachment A > > > > *J&K temples being sold, allege Pandits ** > ** > *Kavita Suri > > Statesman, Feb 11, 2008 > > > JAMMU, Feb. 10: Kashmiri Pandits allege that the Muslim-majority government > in Jammu and Kashmir is ignoring illegal sale of Hindu temples and other > community properties in the state. > Less than 5,000 Kashmiri Pandits who live in the Kashmir valley say that > their resistance to sale of temple properties has exposed them to threats > from a very powerful land mafia. Pandits allege they have been warned > against protesting, or face the consequences. > > > These Pandits say that despite the state government's "verbal assurances" to > protect temple properties, nothing is being done to save them. A promise to > bring in legislation during the recent assembly session to prevent sale of > such properties was not fulfilled. To the disappointment of Pandits, the > legislature was adjourned sine die without introduction of the bill. > > > The Pandits say there is more to the non-introduction of the Bill than meets > the eye. They claim that powerful interests, including a land mafia, > scuttled the legislation. > > > The ground realities in Kashmir are alarming. The Dharmarth Trust headed by > Dr Karan Singh has locked up an ancient and historical temple Ram jee of > Barbar Shah. This is the first time in its known history that the temple has > been locked. Security forces living in the adjacent dharmashala have been > told not to enter the temple precincts. > > > "For all these years, it was a routine with us, the few Kashmiri Pandits > living in the Valley, to come here every Sunday for a get-together, make > prasad and distribute it among devotees. But the trust management, with the > help of the state government, locked up the temple and no one has been > allowed to enter for the past month," said Mr Vijay Sas of the Kashmiri > Pandit Sangarsh Samiti (KPSS), Kashmir. > > > Pandits allege that some in the Dharmarth Trust management want to sell off > the property of the temple, valued at Rs 300 crore. In fact, some of them > allege that the property will be sold to an influential Muslim living in the > Valley. The property located just across the Rambagh Bridge and opposite the > Metrological Department is at a prime location. > > > Inside the huge plot of land, there is an ancient Shiva temple, said to be > around 1200 years old. The lingam is said to be more than 8.5 feet high. > > > > The KPSS filed a PIL in the Supreme Court and was asked to file a fresh case > in the concerned High Court. A case is already pending in the High Court of > Jammu and Kashmir, Srinagar Wing. > > > "Since January 2008, another incident of sale of our religious and community > property has surfaced in Kashmir. It is the sale of DAV School in Rainawari > by one Roshan Lal Raina who was just a teacher in that school but turned > into a broker," said Mr Sas. > > > > Pandits allege that the sale took place at the behest of an influential > official attached to the Director-General of Police, J&K. > > > "KPSS has taken the legal course in the matter but we are worried," said a > displaced pandit. But they hope the court will intervene and stay the sale > of temples. > > > "The problem is that the national media is not interested in the story while > the local Muslim-majority media does not care," said Mr Sas. > > > "If the government fails to bring a Bill in the ongoing session of the state > Assembly to ban sale of temples and other religious properties, we will > proceed on a fast unto death," KPSS president Mr Sanjay Tickoo said. > > > > http://www.thestatesman.org/page.arcview.php?clid=2&id=216888&usrsess=1 > > > > > > ====================================== > > Attachmant B > > > > *Mufti govt 'talibanising everything': BJP* > > Source: PTI > Publication: Rediff on Net > Date: July 2, 2005 > URL: http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/jul/02mufti.htm > > Taking exception to Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Mufti Mohammad Sayeed > describing Hari Parbat as 'Koh-i-Maran', the Bharatiya Janata Party on > Saturday accused the coalition government of supporting 'talibanisation'. > > "The BJP is of the opinion that the Congress party is giving full support to > the People's Democratic Party (of Mehbooba Mufti) that has been > systematically destroying the symbols of historical importance and > talibanising everything in Kashmir," state unit BJP vice president and > spokesperson Hari Om told reporters in Jammu. > > The BJP claimed to have 'definite information' that a few days ago, > officials from the state and New Delhi held a meeting in Srinagar about a > proposal to change names of some landmarks in the state. > > Sayeed had on June 20 described Hari Parbat as 'Koh-i-Maran' and a > ministerial colleague of his had called Shankaracharya Hill 'Sulaiman Teng', > Hari Om said, adding that the BJP rejected outright Pradesh Congress > Committee chief Peerzada Sayeed's assurance that there was no proposal to > rename the two hills. > > ============================================ > > > > Attachmant C > > > > *Destruction of Cultural Symbols :** > Reprehensible History of Fanatic Vandalism* > > Organiser, November 14, 2004 > > Desecration, damage and destruction of temples is not a new and unusual > phenomenon. The process has been continuously going on ever since Kashmir > passed into the political domination of Muslim rulers in the first quarter > of the fourteenth century. > > Islam, like other Semitic religions enjoins upon the faithfuls to expand > their religion by proselytising the heathens, infidels and kafirs > (non-believers) to their faith to gain religious merit. Jehad or holy war is > the instrument that is used for proselytisation. The Muslim rulers of > Kashmir, the Mughals and Pathans made full use of their political authority > to effect conversion of Hindus of the Valley. To achieve the objectives, it > became imperative for them to wipe out all traces of religious and cultural > symbols of Hindus, which included their temples, libraries, universities and > ashrams. > > In Kashmir, gunpowder was used for the first time, not for fighting a war, > but for destroying massive Hindu stone temples. When it was felt that the > fissionable material was not available in a sufficient quantity for > iconoclasm, the nearby jungles were cut down and used for setting on fire > the giant stone structures of the Hindu temples. By excessive heat the > stones burst, broke away and these gigantic structures crumbled in the fire > that spread through the length and breadth of Kashmir. The ruins of Martand, > Avantipur, Devar, etc. are mute witnesses of the depredation. > > *Temples** Vandalised in February 1986* > > *ANANTNAG DISTRICT:* > > 1. > > Anantnag Town: > > Two temples damaged and one looted. > > 2. > > Achhabal: > > One temple desecrated, shit thrown on idols. > > 3. > > Moripura: > > One temple demolished. > > 4. > > Sagam: > > One temple partially burnt. > > 5. > > Naogam: > > One temple partially burnt. > > 6. > > Telvani: > > One temple partially burnt. > > 7. > > Gautamnag: > > One two-storeyed temple burnt and a dharamshala stoned. > > 8. > > Krangsoo: > > Pujari Baba of a temple beaten. > > 9. > > Akura (Mattan): > > One temple and its entire property looted and shed set on fire. > > 10. > > Dialgam: > > One temple heavily damaged by stoning. > > 11. > > Salar: > > One temple set on fire. > > 12. > > Aishmuqam: > > One temple set on fire. > > 13. > > Bijbehara town: > > Two temples completely looted; ancient idol valued at more than Rs 10 lakh > broken; Jai Devi temple desecrated and idol stolen. > > 14. > > Wanpoh (Gasipura): > > Two temples and samadhi of Swami Dama Kak completely burnt. > > 15. > > Dhanav (Bogund): > > Two temples and one dharamshala burnt. > > 16. > > Chogam: > > One temple stoned; its doors, windows and three pillars broken. > > 17. > > Verinag: > > One temple on the parikrama of the holy spring damaged, doors broken, idols > thrown into the spring. Pawan Sandhya, a religious teerth, converted into a > place for construction of mosque. > > 18. > > Larkipora: > > Three temples of Goddess Durga, Siddha Lakshmi and Shiva completely burnt; > idols broken into pieces. > > 19. > > Fatehpura: > > One temple completely burnt alongwith its entrance gate; ancient Shiva idol > broken into pieces. > > 20. > > Quill (Pulwama): > > One temple damaged partially. > > 21. > > Trisal: > > One temple stoned; compound wall of another temple damaged. > > 22. > > Pawan Sandhya: > > Converted into mosque. > > *SRINAGAR DISTRICT:* > > 23. > > Ganpatyar (Srinagar): > > Temple heavily stoned. > > 24. > > Jawahar Nagar: > > Shiva Mandir desecrated and damaged; its property brought out and consigned > to flames. > > 25. > > Maisuma: > > Dashnami akhara, from where Charri Mubarak leaves for holy Amarnath cave > burnt down. > > 26. > > Raghunath Mandir: > > Damaged by stoning. > > 27. > > Tulamulla: > > One temple in the village burnt. > > 28. > > Waskura: > > The famous temple of Mata Rupa Bhawani partially burnt. > > 29. > > Gandherbal: > > Two temples burnt and two temples damaged. > > *BUDGAM DISTRICT:* > > 30. > > Yachhgam: > > One temple partially damaged. > > 31. > > Badgam town: > > Sharda temple damaged. > > 32. > > Chadura: > > One temple damaged. > > *KUPWARA DISTRICT:* > > 33. > > Tekpora: > > One temple burnt. > > 34. > > Lalpura: > > One temple burnt. > > 35. > > Handwara: > > One temple damaged. > > *BARAMULLA DISTRICT:* > > 36. > > Baramulla town: > > One temple partially damaged. > > 37. > > Venkura: > > One temple fully damaged. > > 38. > > Sopore: > > One temple partially damaged. > > 39. > > Bandipora: > > One temple partially burnt. > > > > After India achieved freedom and Kashmir acceded to the Union of India, > temple desecration was resumed. Temple lands, cremation grounds, etc. of > Hindus were usurped for expansion of Islam. The famous Bhairavnath temple of > Chattabal, Srinagar was locked up by the police. The judicial case pending > in court concerning this temple was never allowed to be decided. Precious > lands around Hari Parbat hill, Durganag temple of Srinagar and lands at > several Hindu places of worship in the Valley were slowly and steadily > turned into lands under occupation of Muslim trusts (Maqboozai-Ahali-Islam). > In 1967, Shivala temple, Chotta Nazar, Srinagar was desecrated. Again in > 1984 Shri Hanuman temple at Hari Singh High Street was damaged and in the > same year Arya Samaj temple of Wazir Bagh, Srinagar was burnt down. From > 1986, the law and order situation in the Valley deteriorated day by day and > temple desecration became the order of the day. > > > > After India achieved freedom and Kashmir acceded to the Union of India, > temple desecration was resumed. Temple lands, cremation grounds, etc. of > Hindus were usurped for expansion of Islam. > > *Temples** desecrated, damaged or destroyed in response to community calls > for Jehad from 1987 to 1990* > > 1. > > Sri Puran Raja Bhairav at Hawal, Srinagar (completely burnt). > > 2. > > Vandev Mandir, Hari Parbat (completely burnt). > > 3. > > Kathlishwar Mandir, Zaindar Mohalla, Srinagar (partly damaged). > > 4. > > Gouri Shanker Mandir, Kani-Kadal (damaged). > > 5. > > Somyar Mandir, Habba Kaddal shopping complex (completely burnt). > > 6. > > Shiva Mandir, Shetalnath, Srinagar (burnt). > > 7. > > Shiva Mandir, Malapora, Srinagar (burnt). > > 8. > > Shailputri Asthapan Mandir, Baramulla (burnt). > > 9. > > Gautam Nag Mandir, Anantnag (attacks have been frequent). > > 10. > > Raghunath Mandir, Anantnag (attacks have been frequent). > > 11. > > Tikipora Mandir, Kupwara. > > 12. > > Sri Lakshmi Narayan Mandir, Bulbul Lankar, Srinagar (ancient priceless idol > removed by breaking one of the temple walls). > > 13. > > Temple at Shopian with four buildings and shopping complex burnt. The mahant > at Napli mercilessly beaten; a south Indian sadhu assisting the mahant was > asked to kill a cow. Pine, walnut, apple, kikar and poplar trees spread over > 18 kanals of temple land to a great extent were destroyed. The sadhu > identified some people of Danda Mohalla, mainly one Hussan Dand and Kuda > Dand, leading the mob besides Jamaat-i-Islami workers on carnage. > > 14. > > Idols in Shiva Mandir, Batayar (desecrated). > > 15. > > Holy spring with Shiva idol desecrated at Khrew, resulting in Hindu-Muslim > conflict in the village. > > > > *Temples** desecrated and damaged in Kashmir from 1990 to December 1992* > > *1. DASHNAMI AKHARA, SRINAGAR* > On the opposite side of the shopping complex of WAKF building, housing a > library, reading room and an office of Jamaat-i-Islami, lies the age-old > akhara in Badshah Chowk, Srinagar. The temple in the akhara is surrounded by > three storeyed shopping-cum-hotel-cum-office complex on three sides. There > is a beautiful park in the premises, dharamshalas for sadhus, residence of > the mahant, etc. The akhara has provided a vast area to Suraj Transport > Company for use as godown and parking space on rent. The akhara has been a > chronic eyesore to the Jamaat-i-Islami. It was attacked countless times but > in early 1990, mobs forced entry into the premises causing a devastating > fire, and loss of property in crores in godowns and a portion of mahant's > residence. CRPF suffered heavy injuries while protecting the temple. > > *2. GANPATYAR TEMPLE* > Ganpatyar has been attracting mob attacks right from 1953. Al-Aksa episode, > Satanic Verses, Zia's death, fall of East Pakistan, defeat of Pakistan in > cricket, etc. have been the causes. From the onset of insurgency it was > stoned, attacked by bomb blasts and rockets on various occasions but CRPF in > one of its dharamshalas saved the shrine at great cost. > > *3. RAGHUNATH MANDIR, SRINAGAR* > The school caught fire when the dharamshala of the temple was set on fire in > early 1990 while worshipping in the temple was forbidden. However, the > worshippers refused to stop worship. The premises were set on fire. > > *4. SHIVA TEMPLE, JAWAHAR NAGAR, SRINAGAR* > The property in the dharamshala was brought out along with some puja > material and idols from the temple; some removed and some consigned to > flames. > > *5. HANUMAN MANDIR, SRINAGAR* > Desecrated long before the start of insurgency which necessitated > round-the-clock CRPF guard. The massive Panchamukhi Hanuman idol suffered > some damage in early 1990. > > *6. SHIVA TEMPLE, BARBAR SHAH, SRINAGAR* > It was desecrated a number of times. What is desecrated is not safe. > Desecration itself is heinous sacrilege. > > *7. JAI DEVI TEMPLE, BIJBEHARA* > Desecrated, idols stoned, compound wall broken in 1986. > > *8. VIJESHWAR TEMPLE, BIJBEHARA* > Night soil was thrown on 10 Shiva lingas inside the temple in 1986, and > compound wall broken. > > *9. SHIVA MANDIR, BIJBEHARA* > Ancient idols valued over Rs 10 lakhs in the shrine were looted in 1986. > > *10. RAGHUNATH TEMPLE, ANANTNAG* > According to Mahant Sukhram and other sources, mostly Muslims, it suffered > nine bomb attacks, seven blasts in police station, Anantnag. Refer to FIR > No. 307/427 dated 9-1-91. > > *11. GAUTAM NAG TEMPLE, ANANTNAG* > The double-storey temple (60 x 40) was burnt to ashes in presence of > homeguard personnel and property loss was estimated to the tune of Rs 28 > lakhs, leaving aside priceless ancient manuscripts in Sanskrit and Sharda. > The orchard on 145 canals of land with thirty thousand fruit trees was > mercilessly attacked by fanatical mobs, leaving hardly three thousand trees > to survive. > > *12. THREE TEMPLES OF LUKHBHAVAN, LARKIPURA, ANANTNAG* > Damaged in 1986. Subsequently repaired. Dharamshala burnt, temple suffered > some damage again in 1992. > > *13. WANPOH MANDIR, ANANTNAG* > The idols have been desecrated publicly in respect of this shrine on > 21-2-1992, according to sources. > > *14. SHAILPUTRI TEMPLE, BARAMULLA* > Damaged in 1990. > > *15. DAYALGAM MANDIR, ANANTNAG* > It was stoned heavily but was somehow not razed to the ground. > > *16. BHAIRAVANATH MANDIR, BARAMULLA* > Damaged in 1990. > > *17. BHAIRAVANATH MANDIR, SOPORE* > Desecrated and damaged. > > *18. RUPABHAVANI MANDIR, VASAKURA* > Idols, ashram utensils removed. Night soil thrown on the steps in early > 1990, a dozen times. Protesting Hindus of the vicinity mercilessly beaten. > > *19. KHIRBHAVANI MANDIR, GANDERBAL* > According to B.G. Verghese, "Its origin goes to epic times. The security > forces in its precincts attracted rocket attacks on April 4, 1991, which > chipped some concrete off the outer gate. It again came under attack on May > 4. Bullet marks can be seen on the other structures." > > *20. SHIVA TEMPLE, GANDERBAL* > Desecrated and damaged. > > *21. MATTAN TEMPLE, ANANTNAG* > A mob entered the premises, after namaz, claiming it to be a Muslim shrine. > > *Minister of State for Home, Shri M.M. Jacob told the Lok Sabha on 12-3-1993 > that 38 places of worship were damaged in J&K state, 13 in 1989, nine in > 1990 and 16 in 1991.* > > *DETAILS OF THE TEMPLES DESTROYED IN J&K STATE AFTER DECEMBER 6, 1992* > > *DISTRICT ANANTANAG* > > *S.No* > > *Date* > > *Description of Temple* > > *FIR No.* > > *Police Station* > > 1. > > 8.12.1992 > > > > > - -- > "The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and > write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn." > Alvin Toffler > > http://wanderlustt.blogspot.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Jul 7 21:55:09 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:55:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Talibanisation of India In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807070922q532bbc92i6baa06d079959538@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690802220402n297cfab6jafb8b76cb8982251@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807070922q532bbc92i6baa06d079959538@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807070925l54ae01b9q728f989b0126c552@mail.gmail.com> Perhaps Pandit groups like RIK might also want to protest against fellow Pandits, members of the Ganesh Mandir Prabandhak Committee, for not being interested in the upkeep of this important temple. best shivam o o o Temple divides Pandits OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT Srinagar, June 10: The renovation of a 700-year-old Ganesh temple has become the cause of a rift between Kashmiri Pandits who migrated from the Valley and those who stayed back. The temple in the old city of Srinagar has suffered damage because of inclement weather. Militants vandalised the temple in 1992. The Kashmir Pandit Sangharsh Samiti, which represents over 4,000 people who stayed back, wants to renovate the shrine. Sanjay Tickoo, its president, said: "We want to restore it to its pristine glory." The Samiti, he said, had approached the former office-bearers — all are in Jammu — to discuss the renovation plans. "We had approached them to start the renovation but they refused to do so, saying the situation is not conducive in Kashmir," he said. The Samiti also alleged that the erstwhile Ganesh Mandir Prabandhak Committee had Rs 21 lakh of temple funds, which it was reluctant to give. On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 9:52 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> Pandits allege that some in the Dharmarth Trust management want to sell off >> the property of the temple, valued at Rs 300 crore. > > Sadly, things haven't moved forward on this. Perhaps Kashmiri Pandit > groups should protest against fellow Kashmiri Pandits who are selling > off temple properties. > > best > shivam > > On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 5:32 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: >> Hope something is done to address this issue. >> >> - Aditya Raj Kaul >> Campaign Blog - www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Nishant Dudha >> Date: Feb 22, 2008 3:31 PM >> Subject: Fwd: The Talibanisation of India >> >> >> >> Regret that this document is lengthy. However, it contains some important >> facts and figures which should be available to each and every thinking >> Indian irrespective of their religion to let them know what a scourge >> Minortyism is and the potential it has for destroying our social fabric >> and fuelling the growth of Hindu Fanaticism. >> >> If you do not know me well enough or have not received any mails from me in >> a long time, the reason why this comes your way is because I reckon, this >> impacts us all. >> >> Cheers! >> Nishant >> >> *Copies of this memo have been forwarded to the President and Prime Minister >> of India as also to the members of the Indian Parliament for their >> information and necessary action.* >> >> >> >> *Letter to Shri Ghulam Nabi Azad, Chief Minister, Jammu & Kashmir State* >> >> >> >> *THE HINDU JAGRAN FORUM-USA* >> >> 3145 Gilbert Avenue, Roseburg, OR (USA) 97470 >> >> >> >> >> >> Subject: *Massive destruction of temples in J&K amounts to state sponsored >> Talibanization of the state: These religious structures must be protected >> against the predatory & illegal Sales, demolition and Vandalism and a Waqf >> like Hindu Board be formed for their upkeep and governance.* >> >> >> >> Hon'ble Chief Minister Azad, >> >> >> >> Through this memo we would like to express our deep >> disappointment, indignation and out right condemnation on behalf of a >> billion members strong worldwide Hindu fraternity about the self >> induced "*tactical >> failure*" of the successive J&K governments in protecting the Hindu >> community of Kashmir. Encouraged by the anti-secular, anti-minority and >> Mogul like discriminative policies of the state government. Now these >> Islamists, >> who drove the non-Muslims out of the Kashmir region, have embarked upon the >> illegal sale of Hindu temples and their properties. >> >> >> >> All these criminal activities by the Islamists represent the >> extension of their foreign inspired "*civilizational* *war*" undertaken to >> remove all traces of the historical Hindu past in the vale of Kashmir. >> Massive protests by the remaining less than 5,000 Kashmiri Pandits in the >> valley against criminally altering the socio-cultural complexion of Kashmir >> has been of no avail. On the contrary these extremely vulnerable non-Muslim >> Kashmiris have been exposed to serious threats by a very powerful "*Islamic >> Land Mafia*" that if they do not stop protesting they would face dire >> consequences like the rest of the exiled Pandit community. >> >> >> >> We have been given to understand that powerful interests in the >> Muslim dominated State Legislature including the *Islamic Land Mafia*, >> scuttled the legislation that was supposed to stop the illegal sale and/or >> destruction of Hindu religious structures. Despite the state >> government's "*verbal >> assurances*" to protect temples & their properties nothing has been done to >> save them. Even the promise to bring in legislation during the recent >> assembly session to prevent sale of such properties was not fulfilled and >> the legislature was allowed to adjourn sine die without the introduction of >> the promised bill (attachment A). Obviously the assurance by the state >> authorities has simply proved to be yet another tactic for buying time and >> doing nothing. >> >> >> >> * 1) Govt. re-built Cherar-e-Shareef why not Hindu temples?* >> >> Chief Minister Azad when the Pakistani and indigenous Islamic >> terrorists burnt and destroyed the holy shrine at Cherar-e-Shareef >> responding to the public outcry the Indian as well as Kashmir governments >> agreed to rebuild the shrine. Thereupon a team of engineering specialists >> was detailed to visit some of the major Islamic states in Central Asian >> region for examining their mosques in an attempt to select one of the best >> of them as a model for building the new shrine at Cherar-e-Shareef. In the >> final analysis that is exactly what was done. Based on this experience the >> question that arises now is: if the officials could go to that extent for >> pleasing and or appeasing the Muslim community why can't they re-build Hindu >> temples destroyed in the wake of ethnic cleansing unleashed by the local and >> foreign Jihadists? >> >> >> >> * 2) Govt. Talibanizing everything in Kashmir:* >> >> The former J&K Chief Minister Mufti Mohammad Sayeed's public >> declaration describing Hari Parbat as *'Koh-i-Maran'* in 2005 could only be >> termed as a shot in the arm of '*talibanization*' by the coalition >> government. It is believed that the misguided Congress party has been >> extending its tacit and full support to the People's Democratic Party (of >> Mehbooba Mufti) – the political outfit that has been aggressively engaged in >> systematically destroying the symbols of historical importance, cultural >> pluralism and talibanizing everything in Kashmir," (attachment B). >> >> >> >> * 3) Hindu temples being destroyed on at an unprecedented Scale:* >> >> The process of desecration, loot, vandalizing and destruction of >> temples has continued under the anti-Hindu Islamic rule through generations >> with intent to wipe out all traces of religious and cultural symbols of >> Hindus. These targets besides the temples included libraries, universities >> and ashrams. After India achieved freedom and Kashmir acceded to the Union >> of India in 1947 the destruction and desecration of temples under the new >> Islamic regimes wearing secular turbans received added impetus and >> acceleration. Temple lands, cremation grounds, etc. of Hindus were usurped >> and utilized for expansion of the Islamic populace. The famous Bhairavnath >> temple of Chattabal, Srinagar was locked up by the police. The judicial case >> pending in court concerning this temple was never allowed to be decided. >> Precious lands around Hari Parbat hill, Durganag temple of Srinagar and >> lands at several Hindu places of worship in the Valley were slowly and >> steadily turned into lands under occupation of the Muslim trusts >> (Maqboozai-Ahali-Islam). >> >> >> >> In 1967, Shivala temple, Chotta Nazar, Srinagar was desecrated. >> Again in 1984 Shri Hanuman temple at Hari Singh High Street was damaged and >> in the same year Arya Samaj temple of Wazir Bagh, Srinagar was burnt down. >> In view of the Islamic fundamentalist conspiracy against Hindus in general >> and unqualified support for their plans from across the border, the law and >> order situation in the Valley since 1986 deteriorated progressively and >> temple desecration became the order of the day. Here are some of the glaring >> examples that defy and shred into a million pieces the tall claims made by >> the Muslim leaders of Kashmir about their dedication and adherence to >> nationalism, multiculturalism, secularism, Kashmiriyat and religious >> freedom: >> >> >> >> A) In February 1986 some 39 temples were destroyed in Anantnag, >> Srinagar, Budgam, Kupwara and Baramula districts (attachment C). >> >> >> >> B) From 1987 to 1990 at least fifteen temples were destroyed >> (attachment C). >> >> >> >> * C) Temples desecrated and damaged in Kashmir from 1990 to >> December 1992* (attachment C) >> >> 1. DASHNAMI AKHARA, SRINAGAR >> 2. GANPATYAR TEMPLE >> 3. RAGHUNATH MANDIR, SRINAGAR >> 4. SHIVA TEMPLE, JAWAHAR NAGAR, SRINAGAR >> 5. HANUMAN MANDIR, SRINAGAR >> 6. SHIVA TEMPLE, BARBAR SHAH, SRINAGAR >> 7. JAI DEVI TEMPLE, BIJBEHARA >> 8. VIJESHWAR TEMPLE, BIJBEHARA >> 9. SHIVA MANDIR, BIJBEHARA >> 10. RAGHUNATH TEMPLE, ANANTNAG >> 11. GAUTAM NAG TEMPLE, ANANTNAG >> 12. THREE TEMPLES OF LUKHBHAVAN, LARKIPURA, ANANTNAG >> 13. WANPOH MANDIR, ANANTNAG >> 14. SHAILPUTRI TEMPLE, BARAMULLA >> 15. DAYALGAM MANDIR, ANANTNAG >> 16. BHAIRAVANATH MANDIR, BARAMULLA >> 17. BHAIRAVANATH MANDIR, SOPORE >> 18. RUPABHAVANI MANDIR, VASAKURA >> 19. KHIRBHAVANI MANDIR, GANDERBAL >> 20. SHIVA TEMPLE, GANDERBAL >> 21. MATTAN TEMPLE, ANANTNAG >> >> >> >> D) The *Minister of State for Home Affairs, Shri M.M. Jacob >> disclosed in the Lok Sabha on 12-3-1993 that 38 Hindu places of worship were >> damaged in J&K state, 13 in 1989, nine in 1990 and 16 in 1991.* >> >> >> >> E) There are reports of further destruction of some 39 temples in >> Kashmir after December 6, 1992 for which FIR were filed (attachment C). >> Please note that FIRs on all destruction cases were not filed with the >> authorities in view of the complicity of the administration and warnings of >> retaliation against the complainants by the Islamic terrorists. >> >> >> >> F) According to local eye witnesses accounts there were additional >> 38 temples that were vandalized after December 6, 1992 (attachment C) >> >> >> >> These examples represent only a fraction of the systematic mass >> destruction of temples in J&K after independence of India when the Islamists >> assumed the total and unfettered control of the state. >> >> >> >> *4) The Indian Parliament adopted a law in 1991 specifically >> requiring that* – "the status of religious places, as on August 15, 1947 >> shall be retained". This pre-emptive measure was taken by the national >> legislature anticipating possible dishonorable designs of trouble makers and >> anti- national elements in various administrations. A faithful >> implementation of these laws will require assuring the security and >> restoration of the community based management of Hindu temples and their >> estates. >> >> >> >> Sayeed had on June 20 described Hari Parbat as *'Koh-i-Maran'* and >> a ministerial colleague of his had called Shankaracharya Hill *'Sulaiman >> Teng'*. Have these short sighted Jihadis ever imagined as to what might >> happen if the Indian nation, which is more than 83% Hindu, was to enforce >> similar communal, vindictive and religious based punitive policies in India >> and start undoing what the successive tyrannical Islamic regimes have done >> to the Hindu nation? From that stand point aren't these fundamentalist, >> irresponsible street politicians playing with the lives and welfare of the >> 140 million Muslims of India? >> >> >> >> * 5) Mr. Chief Minister, government's indifference towards the >> temple security and their functioning has been termed as its support to >> persecution of Hindus and denial of their freedom of religion:* Govt. must >> realize that the temples and their endowments have been built over the >> centuries by our forefathers and therefore, it is the community which is >> their real owner and which must have the final say in the management and >> utilization of temple resources. >> >> >> >> Under the present circumstances it is obligatory upon the Govt. as >> envisaged by the above referred Act passed by the Indian Parliament to >> maintain the integrity of religious entities as it stood in 1947. Any >> deviation from that will clearly be violation of the national law and the >> will unambiguously expressed by the Indian Parliament. Therefore, it is >> incumbent upon the Govt. to restore all the destroyed, vandalized, looted >> and desecrated temples and their properties to their glory as it existed in >> 1947 and hand them over to the Hindu community. Any thing less than that >> will be unacceptable. >> >> >> >> * 6) Formation of a Waqf like autonomous Hindu Board for temples >> governance under the Hindu community's guidance:* Mr. Chief Minister, we >> strongly believe that for social issues, religious affairs, community >> services and temple administration there must be a representative and an >> autonomous Hindu Board with full jurisdiction over temple governance and >> management. Accordingly we suggest that the representatives of shrines, >> temples, Hindu community and state and national religious leaders, be >> motivated to convene an assembly where they could be asked to take charge of >> clearly defining legal and religious framework for the community governance >> of temples and other religious places in the state. Since the universal >> right of freedom to manage religious places is available to the Muslim >> community which constitutes the majority in your state, there is absolutely >> no justification to deny it to Hindus? >> >> >> >> * 7) The Govt. must make room for community's vital role in the >> interim temple management through Hindu Advisory Councils:* Such Councils >> could play a role in oversight and decision making process of the endowments >> department and temple Trusts, where Councils elected or nominated by the >> Community and state and national religious leaders could shoulder these >> responsibilities. Additionally these Councils could also stop desecration >> and decimation of the religious infrastructure by bringing these issues to >> the notice of the Govt. and the public, and till an autonomous Board is >> constituted for taking over the charge, like the Waqf Board. >> >> >> >> * 8) Hindus as a minority community in J&K need and must get >> special protection:* In view of the internationally recognized ethnic >> cleansing and genocide of Hindus in Kashmir it would have been most >> desirable if the J&K Govt. had brought into play a policy of special >> protection as well as financial support to the Hindus who are in a minority >> - on the same basis as Muslims are allowed in the rest of India. We regret >> to say that Hindus have been effectively cleansed out of the Kashmir Valley, >> disenfranchised and now the focus seems to be on cleansing them out of Jammu >> as well. The calculated lack of action by the state in this regard seems to >> effectively contribute to the realization of the Jihadists objectives of the >> talibanization of the state. >> >> >> >> * 9) Chief Minister Azad, for a starter may we request your urgent >> attention for protecting Hindu temples and Hindu community properties* from >> illegal sales and encroachment by urgently passing the Kashmiri Hindus >> shrines and religious places Bill and take other administrative measures >> like formation of a Waqf- like Hindu Board for their protection, >> preservation and development. This will be in keeping with: a) high >> standards of ethics, b) norms and practices in all open and democratic >> societies; and, c) the secular Constitution of India. >> >> >> >> Needless to say that inaction by the state and continuing >> demolition of Hindu religious infrastructure carries with it a serious >> potential for a backlash with possibility of horrific consequences. The >> privileges enjoyed by the Muslims as a minority community in India could >> also become a subject matter of controversy if Hindus are continually >> persecuted in the Muslim majority J&K state. It is also relevant to point >> out that most of the budgetary expenditures in the J&K state are gifted by >> the Indian Govt. with taxes mostly paid by Hindus. Surely these taxpayers do >> not fund the Kashmir Govt. so it could destroy Hinduism and achieve forced >> talibanization of the state. >> >> >> >> Thank you Mr. Chief Minister and we are looking forward to your >> response and prompt action towards resolving this explosive situation. >> >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> >> >> >> Dr. Jagan Kaul >> Krishan Bhatnagar >> Hindu Jagran Forum (USA) >> >> email: *krishan.kb at verizon.net >> *February 21, 2008 >> >> >> >> ============================================================ >> >> >> >> Attachment A >> >> >> >> *J&K temples being sold, allege Pandits ** >> ** >> *Kavita Suri >> >> Statesman, Feb 11, 2008 >> >> >> JAMMU, Feb. 10: Kashmiri Pandits allege that the Muslim-majority government >> in Jammu and Kashmir is ignoring illegal sale of Hindu temples and other >> community properties in the state. >> Less than 5,000 Kashmiri Pandits who live in the Kashmir valley say that >> their resistance to sale of temple properties has exposed them to threats >> from a very powerful land mafia. Pandits allege they have been warned >> against protesting, or face the consequences. >> >> >> These Pandits say that despite the state government's "verbal assurances" to >> protect temple properties, nothing is being done to save them. A promise to >> bring in legislation during the recent assembly session to prevent sale of >> such properties was not fulfilled. To the disappointment of Pandits, the >> legislature was adjourned sine die without introduction of the bill. >> >> >> The Pandits say there is more to the non-introduction of the Bill than meets >> the eye. They claim that powerful interests, including a land mafia, >> scuttled the legislation. >> >> >> The ground realities in Kashmir are alarming. The Dharmarth Trust headed by >> Dr Karan Singh has locked up an ancient and historical temple Ram jee of >> Barbar Shah. This is the first time in its known history that the temple has >> been locked. Security forces living in the adjacent dharmashala have been >> told not to enter the temple precincts. >> >> >> "For all these years, it was a routine with us, the few Kashmiri Pandits >> living in the Valley, to come here every Sunday for a get-together, make >> prasad and distribute it among devotees. But the trust management, with the >> help of the state government, locked up the temple and no one has been >> allowed to enter for the past month," said Mr Vijay Sas of the Kashmiri >> Pandit Sangarsh Samiti (KPSS), Kashmir. >> >> >> Pandits allege that some in the Dharmarth Trust management want to sell off >> the property of the temple, valued at Rs 300 crore. In fact, some of them >> allege that the property will be sold to an influential Muslim living in the >> Valley. The property located just across the Rambagh Bridge and opposite the >> Metrological Department is at a prime location. >> >> >> Inside the huge plot of land, there is an ancient Shiva temple, said to be >> around 1200 years old. The lingam is said to be more than 8.5 feet high. >> >> >> >> The KPSS filed a PIL in the Supreme Court and was asked to file a fresh case >> in the concerned High Court. A case is already pending in the High Court of >> Jammu and Kashmir, Srinagar Wing. >> >> >> "Since January 2008, another incident of sale of our religious and community >> property has surfaced in Kashmir. It is the sale of DAV School in Rainawari >> by one Roshan Lal Raina who was just a teacher in that school but turned >> into a broker," said Mr Sas. >> >> >> >> Pandits allege that the sale took place at the behest of an influential >> official attached to the Director-General of Police, J&K. >> >> >> "KPSS has taken the legal course in the matter but we are worried," said a >> displaced pandit. But they hope the court will intervene and stay the sale >> of temples. >> >> >> "The problem is that the national media is not interested in the story while >> the local Muslim-majority media does not care," said Mr Sas. >> >> >> "If the government fails to bring a Bill in the ongoing session of the state >> Assembly to ban sale of temples and other religious properties, we will >> proceed on a fast unto death," KPSS president Mr Sanjay Tickoo said. >> >> >> >> http://www.thestatesman.org/page.arcview.php?clid=2&id=216888&usrsess=1 >> >> >> >> >> >> ====================================== >> >> Attachmant B >> >> >> >> *Mufti govt 'talibanising everything': BJP* >> >> Source: PTI >> Publication: Rediff on Net >> Date: July 2, 2005 >> URL: http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/jul/02mufti.htm >> >> Taking exception to Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Mufti Mohammad Sayeed >> describing Hari Parbat as 'Koh-i-Maran', the Bharatiya Janata Party on >> Saturday accused the coalition government of supporting 'talibanisation'. >> >> "The BJP is of the opinion that the Congress party is giving full support to >> the People's Democratic Party (of Mehbooba Mufti) that has been >> systematically destroying the symbols of historical importance and >> talibanising everything in Kashmir," state unit BJP vice president and >> spokesperson Hari Om told reporters in Jammu. >> >> The BJP claimed to have 'definite information' that a few days ago, >> officials from the state and New Delhi held a meeting in Srinagar about a >> proposal to change names of some landmarks in the state. >> >> Sayeed had on June 20 described Hari Parbat as 'Koh-i-Maran' and a >> ministerial colleague of his had called Shankaracharya Hill 'Sulaiman Teng', >> Hari Om said, adding that the BJP rejected outright Pradesh Congress >> Committee chief Peerzada Sayeed's assurance that there was no proposal to >> rename the two hills. >> >> ============================================ >> >> >> >> Attachmant C >> >> >> >> *Destruction of Cultural Symbols :** >> Reprehensible History of Fanatic Vandalism* >> >> Organiser, November 14, 2004 >> >> Desecration, damage and destruction of temples is not a new and unusual >> phenomenon. The process has been continuously going on ever since Kashmir >> passed into the political domination of Muslim rulers in the first quarter >> of the fourteenth century. >> >> Islam, like other Semitic religions enjoins upon the faithfuls to expand >> their religion by proselytising the heathens, infidels and kafirs >> (non-believers) to their faith to gain religious merit. Jehad or holy war is >> the instrument that is used for proselytisation. The Muslim rulers of >> Kashmir, the Mughals and Pathans made full use of their political authority >> to effect conversion of Hindus of the Valley. To achieve the objectives, it >> became imperative for them to wipe out all traces of religious and cultural >> symbols of Hindus, which included their temples, libraries, universities and >> ashrams. >> >> In Kashmir, gunpowder was used for the first time, not for fighting a war, >> but for destroying massive Hindu stone temples. When it was felt that the >> fissionable material was not available in a sufficient quantity for >> iconoclasm, the nearby jungles were cut down and used for setting on fire >> the giant stone structures of the Hindu temples. By excessive heat the >> stones burst, broke away and these gigantic structures crumbled in the fire >> that spread through the length and breadth of Kashmir. The ruins of Martand, >> Avantipur, Devar, etc. are mute witnesses of the depredation. >> >> *Temples** Vandalised in February 1986* >> >> *ANANTNAG DISTRICT:* >> >> 1. >> >> Anantnag Town: >> >> Two temples damaged and one looted. >> >> 2. >> >> Achhabal: >> >> One temple desecrated, shit thrown on idols. >> >> 3. >> >> Moripura: >> >> One temple demolished. >> >> 4. >> >> Sagam: >> >> One temple partially burnt. >> >> 5. >> >> Naogam: >> >> One temple partially burnt. >> >> 6. >> >> Telvani: >> >> One temple partially burnt. >> >> 7. >> >> Gautamnag: >> >> One two-storeyed temple burnt and a dharamshala stoned. >> >> 8. >> >> Krangsoo: >> >> Pujari Baba of a temple beaten. >> >> 9. >> >> Akura (Mattan): >> >> One temple and its entire property looted and shed set on fire. >> >> 10. >> >> Dialgam: >> >> One temple heavily damaged by stoning. >> >> 11. >> >> Salar: >> >> One temple set on fire. >> >> 12. >> >> Aishmuqam: >> >> One temple set on fire. >> >> 13. >> >> Bijbehara town: >> >> Two temples completely looted; ancient idol valued at more than Rs 10 lakh >> broken; Jai Devi temple desecrated and idol stolen. >> >> 14. >> >> Wanpoh (Gasipura): >> >> Two temples and samadhi of Swami Dama Kak completely burnt. >> >> 15. >> >> Dhanav (Bogund): >> >> Two temples and one dharamshala burnt. >> >> 16. >> >> Chogam: >> >> One temple stoned; its doors, windows and three pillars broken. >> >> 17. >> >> Verinag: >> >> One temple on the parikrama of the holy spring damaged, doors broken, idols >> thrown into the spring. Pawan Sandhya, a religious teerth, converted into a >> place for construction of mosque. >> >> 18. >> >> Larkipora: >> >> Three temples of Goddess Durga, Siddha Lakshmi and Shiva completely burnt; >> idols broken into pieces. >> >> 19. >> >> Fatehpura: >> >> One temple completely burnt alongwith its entrance gate; ancient Shiva idol >> broken into pieces. >> >> 20. >> >> Quill (Pulwama): >> >> One temple damaged partially. >> >> 21. >> >> Trisal: >> >> One temple stoned; compound wall of another temple damaged. >> >> 22. >> >> Pawan Sandhya: >> >> Converted into mosque. >> >> *SRINAGAR DISTRICT:* >> >> 23. >> >> Ganpatyar (Srinagar): >> >> Temple heavily stoned. >> >> 24. >> >> Jawahar Nagar: >> >> Shiva Mandir desecrated and damaged; its property brought out and consigned >> to flames. >> >> 25. >> >> Maisuma: >> >> Dashnami akhara, from where Charri Mubarak leaves for holy Amarnath cave >> burnt down. >> >> 26. >> >> Raghunath Mandir: >> >> Damaged by stoning. >> >> 27. >> >> Tulamulla: >> >> One temple in the village burnt. >> >> 28. >> >> Waskura: >> >> The famous temple of Mata Rupa Bhawani partially burnt. >> >> 29. >> >> Gandherbal: >> >> Two temples burnt and two temples damaged. >> >> *BUDGAM DISTRICT:* >> >> 30. >> >> Yachhgam: >> >> One temple partially damaged. >> >> 31. >> >> Badgam town: >> >> Sharda temple damaged. >> >> 32. >> >> Chadura: >> >> One temple damaged. >> >> *KUPWARA DISTRICT:* >> >> 33. >> >> Tekpora: >> >> One temple burnt. >> >> 34. >> >> Lalpura: >> >> One temple burnt. >> >> 35. >> >> Handwara: >> >> One temple damaged. >> >> *BARAMULLA DISTRICT:* >> >> 36. >> >> Baramulla town: >> >> One temple partially damaged. >> >> 37. >> >> Venkura: >> >> One temple fully damaged. >> >> 38. >> >> Sopore: >> >> One temple partially damaged. >> >> 39. >> >> Bandipora: >> >> One temple partially burnt. >> >> >> >> After India achieved freedom and Kashmir acceded to the Union of India, >> temple desecration was resumed. Temple lands, cremation grounds, etc. of >> Hindus were usurped for expansion of Islam. The famous Bhairavnath temple of >> Chattabal, Srinagar was locked up by the police. The judicial case pending >> in court concerning this temple was never allowed to be decided. Precious >> lands around Hari Parbat hill, Durganag temple of Srinagar and lands at >> several Hindu places of worship in the Valley were slowly and steadily >> turned into lands under occupation of Muslim trusts (Maqboozai-Ahali-Islam). >> In 1967, Shivala temple, Chotta Nazar, Srinagar was desecrated. Again in >> 1984 Shri Hanuman temple at Hari Singh High Street was damaged and in the >> same year Arya Samaj temple of Wazir Bagh, Srinagar was burnt down. From >> 1986, the law and order situation in the Valley deteriorated day by day and >> temple desecration became the order of the day. >> >> >> >> After India achieved freedom and Kashmir acceded to the Union of India, >> temple desecration was resumed. Temple lands, cremation grounds, etc. of >> Hindus were usurped for expansion of Islam. >> >> *Temples** desecrated, damaged or destroyed in response to community calls >> for Jehad from 1987 to 1990* >> >> 1. >> >> Sri Puran Raja Bhairav at Hawal, Srinagar (completely burnt). >> >> 2. >> >> Vandev Mandir, Hari Parbat (completely burnt). >> >> 3. >> >> Kathlishwar Mandir, Zaindar Mohalla, Srinagar (partly damaged). >> >> 4. >> >> Gouri Shanker Mandir, Kani-Kadal (damaged). >> >> 5. >> >> Somyar Mandir, Habba Kaddal shopping complex (completely burnt). >> >> 6. >> >> Shiva Mandir, Shetalnath, Srinagar (burnt). >> >> 7. >> >> Shiva Mandir, Malapora, Srinagar (burnt). >> >> 8. >> >> Shailputri Asthapan Mandir, Baramulla (burnt). >> >> 9. >> >> Gautam Nag Mandir, Anantnag (attacks have been frequent). >> >> 10. >> >> Raghunath Mandir, Anantnag (attacks have been frequent). >> >> 11. >> >> Tikipora Mandir, Kupwara. >> >> 12. >> >> Sri Lakshmi Narayan Mandir, Bulbul Lankar, Srinagar (ancient priceless idol >> removed by breaking one of the temple walls). >> >> 13. >> >> Temple at Shopian with four buildings and shopping complex burnt. The mahant >> at Napli mercilessly beaten; a south Indian sadhu assisting the mahant was >> asked to kill a cow. Pine, walnut, apple, kikar and poplar trees spread over >> 18 kanals of temple land to a great extent were destroyed. The sadhu >> identified some people of Danda Mohalla, mainly one Hussan Dand and Kuda >> Dand, leading the mob besides Jamaat-i-Islami workers on carnage. >> >> 14. >> >> Idols in Shiva Mandir, Batayar (desecrated). >> >> 15. >> >> Holy spring with Shiva idol desecrated at Khrew, resulting in Hindu-Muslim >> conflict in the village. >> >> >> >> *Temples** desecrated and damaged in Kashmir from 1990 to December 1992* >> >> *1. DASHNAMI AKHARA, SRINAGAR* >> On the opposite side of the shopping complex of WAKF building, housing a >> library, reading room and an office of Jamaat-i-Islami, lies the age-old >> akhara in Badshah Chowk, Srinagar. The temple in the akhara is surrounded by >> three storeyed shopping-cum-hotel-cum-office complex on three sides. There >> is a beautiful park in the premises, dharamshalas for sadhus, residence of >> the mahant, etc. The akhara has provided a vast area to Suraj Transport >> Company for use as godown and parking space on rent. The akhara has been a >> chronic eyesore to the Jamaat-i-Islami. It was attacked countless times but >> in early 1990, mobs forced entry into the premises causing a devastating >> fire, and loss of property in crores in godowns and a portion of mahant's >> residence. CRPF suffered heavy injuries while protecting the temple. >> >> *2. GANPATYAR TEMPLE* >> Ganpatyar has been attracting mob attacks right from 1953. Al-Aksa episode, >> Satanic Verses, Zia's death, fall of East Pakistan, defeat of Pakistan in >> cricket, etc. have been the causes. From the onset of insurgency it was >> stoned, attacked by bomb blasts and rockets on various occasions but CRPF in >> one of its dharamshalas saved the shrine at great cost. >> >> *3. RAGHUNATH MANDIR, SRINAGAR* >> The school caught fire when the dharamshala of the temple was set on fire in >> early 1990 while worshipping in the temple was forbidden. However, the >> worshippers refused to stop worship. The premises were set on fire. >> >> *4. SHIVA TEMPLE, JAWAHAR NAGAR, SRINAGAR* >> The property in the dharamshala was brought out along with some puja >> material and idols from the temple; some removed and some consigned to >> flames. >> >> *5. HANUMAN MANDIR, SRINAGAR* >> Desecrated long before the start of insurgency which necessitated >> round-the-clock CRPF guard. The massive Panchamukhi Hanuman idol suffered >> some damage in early 1990. >> >> *6. SHIVA TEMPLE, BARBAR SHAH, SRINAGAR* >> It was desecrated a number of times. What is desecrated is not safe. >> Desecration itself is heinous sacrilege. >> >> *7. JAI DEVI TEMPLE, BIJBEHARA* >> Desecrated, idols stoned, compound wall broken in 1986. >> >> *8. VIJESHWAR TEMPLE, BIJBEHARA* >> Night soil was thrown on 10 Shiva lingas inside the temple in 1986, and >> compound wall broken. >> >> *9. SHIVA MANDIR, BIJBEHARA* >> Ancient idols valued over Rs 10 lakhs in the shrine were looted in 1986. >> >> *10. RAGHUNATH TEMPLE, ANANTNAG* >> According to Mahant Sukhram and other sources, mostly Muslims, it suffered >> nine bomb attacks, seven blasts in police station, Anantnag. Refer to FIR >> No. 307/427 dated 9-1-91. >> >> *11. GAUTAM NAG TEMPLE, ANANTNAG* >> The double-storey temple (60 x 40) was burnt to ashes in presence of >> homeguard personnel and property loss was estimated to the tune of Rs 28 >> lakhs, leaving aside priceless ancient manuscripts in Sanskrit and Sharda. >> The orchard on 145 canals of land with thirty thousand fruit trees was >> mercilessly attacked by fanatical mobs, leaving hardly three thousand trees >> to survive. >> >> *12. THREE TEMPLES OF LUKHBHAVAN, LARKIPURA, ANANTNAG* >> Damaged in 1986. Subsequently repaired. Dharamshala burnt, temple suffered >> some damage again in 1992. >> >> *13. WANPOH MANDIR, ANANTNAG* >> The idols have been desecrated publicly in respect of this shrine on >> 21-2-1992, according to sources. >> >> *14. SHAILPUTRI TEMPLE, BARAMULLA* >> Damaged in 1990. >> >> *15. DAYALGAM MANDIR, ANANTNAG* >> It was stoned heavily but was somehow not razed to the ground. >> >> *16. BHAIRAVANATH MANDIR, BARAMULLA* >> Damaged in 1990. >> >> *17. BHAIRAVANATH MANDIR, SOPORE* >> Desecrated and damaged. >> >> *18. RUPABHAVANI MANDIR, VASAKURA* >> Idols, ashram utensils removed. Night soil thrown on the steps in early >> 1990, a dozen times. Protesting Hindus of the vicinity mercilessly beaten. >> >> *19. KHIRBHAVANI MANDIR, GANDERBAL* >> According to B.G. Verghese, "Its origin goes to epic times. The security >> forces in its precincts attracted rocket attacks on April 4, 1991, which >> chipped some concrete off the outer gate. It again came under attack on May >> 4. Bullet marks can be seen on the other structures." >> >> *20. SHIVA TEMPLE, GANDERBAL* >> Desecrated and damaged. >> >> *21. MATTAN TEMPLE, ANANTNAG* >> A mob entered the premises, after namaz, claiming it to be a Muslim shrine. >> >> *Minister of State for Home, Shri M.M. Jacob told the Lok Sabha on 12-3-1993 >> that 38 places of worship were damaged in J&K state, 13 in 1989, nine in >> 1990 and 16 in 1991.* >> >> *DETAILS OF THE TEMPLES DESTROYED IN J&K STATE AFTER DECEMBER 6, 1992* >> >> *DISTRICT ANANTANAG* >> >> *S.No* >> >> *Date* >> >> *Description of Temple* >> >> *FIR No.* >> >> *Police Station* >> >> 1. >> >> 8.12.1992 >> >> >> >> >> - -- >> "The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and >> write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn." >> Alvin Toffler >> >> http://wanderlustt.blogspot.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Jul 7 21:55:31 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:55:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Talibanisation of India In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807070925l54ae01b9q728f989b0126c552@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690802220402n297cfab6jafb8b76cb8982251@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807070922q532bbc92i6baa06d079959538@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807070925l54ae01b9q728f989b0126c552@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807070925g46c21a34wa67ad3f2ca8f0a66@mail.gmail.com> Link for the story I posted below: http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080611/jsp/frontpage/story_9395200.jsp On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 9:55 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > Perhaps Pandit groups like RIK might also want to protest against > fellow Pandits, members of the Ganesh Mandir Prabandhak Committee, for > not being interested in the upkeep of this important temple. > > best > shivam > > o o o > > Temple divides Pandits > OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT > > Srinagar, June 10: The renovation of a 700-year-old Ganesh temple has > become the cause of a rift between Kashmiri Pandits who migrated from > the Valley and those who stayed back. > > The temple in the old city of Srinagar has suffered damage because of > inclement weather. Militants vandalised the temple in 1992. > > The Kashmir Pandit Sangharsh Samiti, which represents over 4,000 > people who stayed back, wants to renovate the shrine. Sanjay Tickoo, > its president, said: "We want to restore it to its pristine glory." > > The Samiti, he said, had approached the former office-bearers — all > are in Jammu — to discuss the renovation plans. "We had approached > them to start the renovation but they refused to do so, saying the > situation is not conducive in Kashmir," he said. > > The Samiti also alleged that the erstwhile Ganesh Mandir Prabandhak > Committee had Rs 21 lakh of temple funds, which it was reluctant to > give. > > > > > On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 9:52 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > wrote: >>> Pandits allege that some in the Dharmarth Trust management want to sell off >>> the property of the temple, valued at Rs 300 crore. >> >> Sadly, things haven't moved forward on this. Perhaps Kashmiri Pandit >> groups should protest against fellow Kashmiri Pandits who are selling >> off temple properties. >> >> best >> shivam >> >> On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 5:32 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> wrote: >>> Hope something is done to address this issue. >>> >>> - Aditya Raj Kaul >>> Campaign Blog - www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: Nishant Dudha >>> Date: Feb 22, 2008 3:31 PM >>> Subject: Fwd: The Talibanisation of India >>> >>> >>> >>> Regret that this document is lengthy. However, it contains some important >>> facts and figures which should be available to each and every thinking >>> Indian irrespective of their religion to let them know what a scourge >>> Minortyism is and the potential it has for destroying our social fabric >>> and fuelling the growth of Hindu Fanaticism. >>> >>> If you do not know me well enough or have not received any mails from me in >>> a long time, the reason why this comes your way is because I reckon, this >>> impacts us all. >>> >>> Cheers! >>> Nishant >>> >>> *Copies of this memo have been forwarded to the President and Prime Minister >>> of India as also to the members of the Indian Parliament for their >>> information and necessary action.* >>> >>> >>> >>> *Letter to Shri Ghulam Nabi Azad, Chief Minister, Jammu & Kashmir State* >>> >>> >>> >>> *THE HINDU JAGRAN FORUM-USA* >>> >>> 3145 Gilbert Avenue, Roseburg, OR (USA) 97470 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Subject: *Massive destruction of temples in J&K amounts to state sponsored >>> Talibanization of the state: These religious structures must be protected >>> against the predatory & illegal Sales, demolition and Vandalism and a Waqf >>> like Hindu Board be formed for their upkeep and governance.* >>> >>> >>> >>> Hon'ble Chief Minister Azad, >>> >>> >>> >>> Through this memo we would like to express our deep >>> disappointment, indignation and out right condemnation on behalf of a >>> billion members strong worldwide Hindu fraternity about the self >>> induced "*tactical >>> failure*" of the successive J&K governments in protecting the Hindu >>> community of Kashmir. Encouraged by the anti-secular, anti-minority and >>> Mogul like discriminative policies of the state government. Now these >>> Islamists, >>> who drove the non-Muslims out of the Kashmir region, have embarked upon the >>> illegal sale of Hindu temples and their properties. >>> >>> >>> >>> All these criminal activities by the Islamists represent the >>> extension of their foreign inspired "*civilizational* *war*" undertaken to >>> remove all traces of the historical Hindu past in the vale of Kashmir. >>> Massive protests by the remaining less than 5,000 Kashmiri Pandits in the >>> valley against criminally altering the socio-cultural complexion of Kashmir >>> has been of no avail. On the contrary these extremely vulnerable non-Muslim >>> Kashmiris have been exposed to serious threats by a very powerful "*Islamic >>> Land Mafia*" that if they do not stop protesting they would face dire >>> consequences like the rest of the exiled Pandit community. >>> >>> >>> >>> We have been given to understand that powerful interests in the >>> Muslim dominated State Legislature including the *Islamic Land Mafia*, >>> scuttled the legislation that was supposed to stop the illegal sale and/or >>> destruction of Hindu religious structures. Despite the state >>> government's "*verbal >>> assurances*" to protect temples & their properties nothing has been done to >>> save them. Even the promise to bring in legislation during the recent >>> assembly session to prevent sale of such properties was not fulfilled and >>> the legislature was allowed to adjourn sine die without the introduction of >>> the promised bill (attachment A). Obviously the assurance by the state >>> authorities has simply proved to be yet another tactic for buying time and >>> doing nothing. >>> >>> >>> >>> * 1) Govt. re-built Cherar-e-Shareef why not Hindu temples?* >>> >>> Chief Minister Azad when the Pakistani and indigenous Islamic >>> terrorists burnt and destroyed the holy shrine at Cherar-e-Shareef >>> responding to the public outcry the Indian as well as Kashmir governments >>> agreed to rebuild the shrine. Thereupon a team of engineering specialists >>> was detailed to visit some of the major Islamic states in Central Asian >>> region for examining their mosques in an attempt to select one of the best >>> of them as a model for building the new shrine at Cherar-e-Shareef. In the >>> final analysis that is exactly what was done. Based on this experience the >>> question that arises now is: if the officials could go to that extent for >>> pleasing and or appeasing the Muslim community why can't they re-build Hindu >>> temples destroyed in the wake of ethnic cleansing unleashed by the local and >>> foreign Jihadists? >>> >>> >>> >>> * 2) Govt. Talibanizing everything in Kashmir:* >>> >>> The former J&K Chief Minister Mufti Mohammad Sayeed's public >>> declaration describing Hari Parbat as *'Koh-i-Maran'* in 2005 could only be >>> termed as a shot in the arm of '*talibanization*' by the coalition >>> government. It is believed that the misguided Congress party has been >>> extending its tacit and full support to the People's Democratic Party (of >>> Mehbooba Mufti) – the political outfit that has been aggressively engaged in >>> systematically destroying the symbols of historical importance, cultural >>> pluralism and talibanizing everything in Kashmir," (attachment B). >>> >>> >>> >>> * 3) Hindu temples being destroyed on at an unprecedented Scale:* >>> >>> The process of desecration, loot, vandalizing and destruction of >>> temples has continued under the anti-Hindu Islamic rule through generations >>> with intent to wipe out all traces of religious and cultural symbols of >>> Hindus. These targets besides the temples included libraries, universities >>> and ashrams. After India achieved freedom and Kashmir acceded to the Union >>> of India in 1947 the destruction and desecration of temples under the new >>> Islamic regimes wearing secular turbans received added impetus and >>> acceleration. Temple lands, cremation grounds, etc. of Hindus were usurped >>> and utilized for expansion of the Islamic populace. The famous Bhairavnath >>> temple of Chattabal, Srinagar was locked up by the police. The judicial case >>> pending in court concerning this temple was never allowed to be decided. >>> Precious lands around Hari Parbat hill, Durganag temple of Srinagar and >>> lands at several Hindu places of worship in the Valley were slowly and >>> steadily turned into lands under occupation of the Muslim trusts >>> (Maqboozai-Ahali-Islam). >>> >>> >>> >>> In 1967, Shivala temple, Chotta Nazar, Srinagar was desecrated. >>> Again in 1984 Shri Hanuman temple at Hari Singh High Street was damaged and >>> in the same year Arya Samaj temple of Wazir Bagh, Srinagar was burnt down. >>> In view of the Islamic fundamentalist conspiracy against Hindus in general >>> and unqualified support for their plans from across the border, the law and >>> order situation in the Valley since 1986 deteriorated progressively and >>> temple desecration became the order of the day. Here are some of the glaring >>> examples that defy and shred into a million pieces the tall claims made by >>> the Muslim leaders of Kashmir about their dedication and adherence to >>> nationalism, multiculturalism, secularism, Kashmiriyat and religious >>> freedom: >>> >>> >>> >>> A) In February 1986 some 39 temples were destroyed in Anantnag, >>> Srinagar, Budgam, Kupwara and Baramula districts (attachment C). >>> >>> >>> >>> B) From 1987 to 1990 at least fifteen temples were destroyed >>> (attachment C). >>> >>> >>> >>> * C) Temples desecrated and damaged in Kashmir from 1990 to >>> December 1992* (attachment C) >>> >>> 1. DASHNAMI AKHARA, SRINAGAR >>> 2. GANPATYAR TEMPLE >>> 3. RAGHUNATH MANDIR, SRINAGAR >>> 4. SHIVA TEMPLE, JAWAHAR NAGAR, SRINAGAR >>> 5. HANUMAN MANDIR, SRINAGAR >>> 6. SHIVA TEMPLE, BARBAR SHAH, SRINAGAR >>> 7. JAI DEVI TEMPLE, BIJBEHARA >>> 8. VIJESHWAR TEMPLE, BIJBEHARA >>> 9. SHIVA MANDIR, BIJBEHARA >>> 10. RAGHUNATH TEMPLE, ANANTNAG >>> 11. GAUTAM NAG TEMPLE, ANANTNAG >>> 12. THREE TEMPLES OF LUKHBHAVAN, LARKIPURA, ANANTNAG >>> 13. WANPOH MANDIR, ANANTNAG >>> 14. SHAILPUTRI TEMPLE, BARAMULLA >>> 15. DAYALGAM MANDIR, ANANTNAG >>> 16. BHAIRAVANATH MANDIR, BARAMULLA >>> 17. BHAIRAVANATH MANDIR, SOPORE >>> 18. RUPABHAVANI MANDIR, VASAKURA >>> 19. KHIRBHAVANI MANDIR, GANDERBAL >>> 20. SHIVA TEMPLE, GANDERBAL >>> 21. MATTAN TEMPLE, ANANTNAG >>> >>> >>> >>> D) The *Minister of State for Home Affairs, Shri M.M. Jacob >>> disclosed in the Lok Sabha on 12-3-1993 that 38 Hindu places of worship were >>> damaged in J&K state, 13 in 1989, nine in 1990 and 16 in 1991.* >>> >>> >>> >>> E) There are reports of further destruction of some 39 temples in >>> Kashmir after December 6, 1992 for which FIR were filed (attachment C). >>> Please note that FIRs on all destruction cases were not filed with the >>> authorities in view of the complicity of the administration and warnings of >>> retaliation against the complainants by the Islamic terrorists. >>> >>> >>> >>> F) According to local eye witnesses accounts there were additional >>> 38 temples that were vandalized after December 6, 1992 (attachment C) >>> >>> >>> >>> These examples represent only a fraction of the systematic mass >>> destruction of temples in J&K after independence of India when the Islamists >>> assumed the total and unfettered control of the state. >>> >>> >>> >>> *4) The Indian Parliament adopted a law in 1991 specifically >>> requiring that* – "the status of religious places, as on August 15, 1947 >>> shall be retained". This pre-emptive measure was taken by the national >>> legislature anticipating possible dishonorable designs of trouble makers and >>> anti- national elements in various administrations. A faithful >>> implementation of these laws will require assuring the security and >>> restoration of the community based management of Hindu temples and their >>> estates. >>> >>> >>> >>> Sayeed had on June 20 described Hari Parbat as *'Koh-i-Maran'* and >>> a ministerial colleague of his had called Shankaracharya Hill *'Sulaiman >>> Teng'*. Have these short sighted Jihadis ever imagined as to what might >>> happen if the Indian nation, which is more than 83% Hindu, was to enforce >>> similar communal, vindictive and religious based punitive policies in India >>> and start undoing what the successive tyrannical Islamic regimes have done >>> to the Hindu nation? From that stand point aren't these fundamentalist, >>> irresponsible street politicians playing with the lives and welfare of the >>> 140 million Muslims of India? >>> >>> >>> >>> * 5) Mr. Chief Minister, government's indifference towards the >>> temple security and their functioning has been termed as its support to >>> persecution of Hindus and denial of their freedom of religion:* Govt. must >>> realize that the temples and their endowments have been built over the >>> centuries by our forefathers and therefore, it is the community which is >>> their real owner and which must have the final say in the management and >>> utilization of temple resources. >>> >>> >>> >>> Under the present circumstances it is obligatory upon the Govt. as >>> envisaged by the above referred Act passed by the Indian Parliament to >>> maintain the integrity of religious entities as it stood in 1947. Any >>> deviation from that will clearly be violation of the national law and the >>> will unambiguously expressed by the Indian Parliament. Therefore, it is >>> incumbent upon the Govt. to restore all the destroyed, vandalized, looted >>> and desecrated temples and their properties to their glory as it existed in >>> 1947 and hand them over to the Hindu community. Any thing less than that >>> will be unacceptable. >>> >>> >>> >>> * 6) Formation of a Waqf like autonomous Hindu Board for temples >>> governance under the Hindu community's guidance:* Mr. Chief Minister, we >>> strongly believe that for social issues, religious affairs, community >>> services and temple administration there must be a representative and an >>> autonomous Hindu Board with full jurisdiction over temple governance and >>> management. Accordingly we suggest that the representatives of shrines, >>> temples, Hindu community and state and national religious leaders, be >>> motivated to convene an assembly where they could be asked to take charge of >>> clearly defining legal and religious framework for the community governance >>> of temples and other religious places in the state. Since the universal >>> right of freedom to manage religious places is available to the Muslim >>> community which constitutes the majority in your state, there is absolutely >>> no justification to deny it to Hindus? >>> >>> >>> >>> * 7) The Govt. must make room for community's vital role in the >>> interim temple management through Hindu Advisory Councils:* Such Councils >>> could play a role in oversight and decision making process of the endowments >>> department and temple Trusts, where Councils elected or nominated by the >>> Community and state and national religious leaders could shoulder these >>> responsibilities. Additionally these Councils could also stop desecration >>> and decimation of the religious infrastructure by bringing these issues to >>> the notice of the Govt. and the public, and till an autonomous Board is >>> constituted for taking over the charge, like the Waqf Board. >>> >>> >>> >>> * 8) Hindus as a minority community in J&K need and must get >>> special protection:* In view of the internationally recognized ethnic >>> cleansing and genocide of Hindus in Kashmir it would have been most >>> desirable if the J&K Govt. had brought into play a policy of special >>> protection as well as financial support to the Hindus who are in a minority >>> - on the same basis as Muslims are allowed in the rest of India. We regret >>> to say that Hindus have been effectively cleansed out of the Kashmir Valley, >>> disenfranchised and now the focus seems to be on cleansing them out of Jammu >>> as well. The calculated lack of action by the state in this regard seems to >>> effectively contribute to the realization of the Jihadists objectives of the >>> talibanization of the state. >>> >>> >>> >>> * 9) Chief Minister Azad, for a starter may we request your urgent >>> attention for protecting Hindu temples and Hindu community properties* from >>> illegal sales and encroachment by urgently passing the Kashmiri Hindus >>> shrines and religious places Bill and take other administrative measures >>> like formation of a Waqf- like Hindu Board for their protection, >>> preservation and development. This will be in keeping with: a) high >>> standards of ethics, b) norms and practices in all open and democratic >>> societies; and, c) the secular Constitution of India. >>> >>> >>> >>> Needless to say that inaction by the state and continuing >>> demolition of Hindu religious infrastructure carries with it a serious >>> potential for a backlash with possibility of horrific consequences. The >>> privileges enjoyed by the Muslims as a minority community in India could >>> also become a subject matter of controversy if Hindus are continually >>> persecuted in the Muslim majority J&K state. It is also relevant to point >>> out that most of the budgetary expenditures in the J&K state are gifted by >>> the Indian Govt. with taxes mostly paid by Hindus. Surely these taxpayers do >>> not fund the Kashmir Govt. so it could destroy Hinduism and achieve forced >>> talibanization of the state. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you Mr. Chief Minister and we are looking forward to your >>> response and prompt action towards resolving this explosive situation. >>> >>> >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr. Jagan Kaul >>> Krishan Bhatnagar >>> Hindu Jagran Forum (USA) >>> >>> email: *krishan.kb at verizon.net >>> *February 21, 2008 >>> >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> >>> >>> >>> Attachment A >>> >>> >>> >>> *J&K temples being sold, allege Pandits ** >>> ** >>> *Kavita Suri >>> >>> Statesman, Feb 11, 2008 >>> >>> >>> JAMMU, Feb. 10: Kashmiri Pandits allege that the Muslim-majority government >>> in Jammu and Kashmir is ignoring illegal sale of Hindu temples and other >>> community properties in the state. >>> Less than 5,000 Kashmiri Pandits who live in the Kashmir valley say that >>> their resistance to sale of temple properties has exposed them to threats >>> from a very powerful land mafia. Pandits allege they have been warned >>> against protesting, or face the consequences. >>> >>> >>> These Pandits say that despite the state government's "verbal assurances" to >>> protect temple properties, nothing is being done to save them. A promise to >>> bring in legislation during the recent assembly session to prevent sale of >>> such properties was not fulfilled. To the disappointment of Pandits, the >>> legislature was adjourned sine die without introduction of the bill. >>> >>> >>> The Pandits say there is more to the non-introduction of the Bill than meets >>> the eye. They claim that powerful interests, including a land mafia, >>> scuttled the legislation. >>> >>> >>> The ground realities in Kashmir are alarming. The Dharmarth Trust headed by >>> Dr Karan Singh has locked up an ancient and historical temple Ram jee of >>> Barbar Shah. This is the first time in its known history that the temple has >>> been locked. Security forces living in the adjacent dharmashala have been >>> told not to enter the temple precincts. >>> >>> >>> "For all these years, it was a routine with us, the few Kashmiri Pandits >>> living in the Valley, to come here every Sunday for a get-together, make >>> prasad and distribute it among devotees. But the trust management, with the >>> help of the state government, locked up the temple and no one has been >>> allowed to enter for the past month," said Mr Vijay Sas of the Kashmiri >>> Pandit Sangarsh Samiti (KPSS), Kashmir. >>> >>> >>> Pandits allege that some in the Dharmarth Trust management want to sell off >>> the property of the temple, valued at Rs 300 crore. In fact, some of them >>> allege that the property will be sold to an influential Muslim living in the >>> Valley. The property located just across the Rambagh Bridge and opposite the >>> Metrological Department is at a prime location. >>> >>> >>> Inside the huge plot of land, there is an ancient Shiva temple, said to be >>> around 1200 years old. The lingam is said to be more than 8.5 feet high. >>> >>> >>> >>> The KPSS filed a PIL in the Supreme Court and was asked to file a fresh case >>> in the concerned High Court. A case is already pending in the High Court of >>> Jammu and Kashmir, Srinagar Wing. >>> >>> >>> "Since January 2008, another incident of sale of our religious and community >>> property has surfaced in Kashmir. It is the sale of DAV School in Rainawari >>> by one Roshan Lal Raina who was just a teacher in that school but turned >>> into a broker," said Mr Sas. >>> >>> >>> >>> Pandits allege that the sale took place at the behest of an influential >>> official attached to the Director-General of Police, J&K. >>> >>> >>> "KPSS has taken the legal course in the matter but we are worried," said a >>> displaced pandit. But they hope the court will intervene and stay the sale >>> of temples. >>> >>> >>> "The problem is that the national media is not interested in the story while >>> the local Muslim-majority media does not care," said Mr Sas. >>> >>> >>> "If the government fails to bring a Bill in the ongoing session of the state >>> Assembly to ban sale of temples and other religious properties, we will >>> proceed on a fast unto death," KPSS president Mr Sanjay Tickoo said. >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.thestatesman.org/page.arcview.php?clid=2&id=216888&usrsess=1 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ====================================== >>> >>> Attachmant B >>> >>> >>> >>> *Mufti govt 'talibanising everything': BJP* >>> >>> Source: PTI >>> Publication: Rediff on Net >>> Date: July 2, 2005 >>> URL: http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/jul/02mufti.htm >>> >>> Taking exception to Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Mufti Mohammad Sayeed >>> describing Hari Parbat as 'Koh-i-Maran', the Bharatiya Janata Party on >>> Saturday accused the coalition government of supporting 'talibanisation'. >>> >>> "The BJP is of the opinion that the Congress party is giving full support to >>> the People's Democratic Party (of Mehbooba Mufti) that has been >>> systematically destroying the symbols of historical importance and >>> talibanising everything in Kashmir," state unit BJP vice president and >>> spokesperson Hari Om told reporters in Jammu. >>> >>> The BJP claimed to have 'definite information' that a few days ago, >>> officials from the state and New Delhi held a meeting in Srinagar about a >>> proposal to change names of some landmarks in the state. >>> >>> Sayeed had on June 20 described Hari Parbat as 'Koh-i-Maran' and a >>> ministerial colleague of his had called Shankaracharya Hill 'Sulaiman Teng', >>> Hari Om said, adding that the BJP rejected outright Pradesh Congress >>> Committee chief Peerzada Sayeed's assurance that there was no proposal to >>> rename the two hills. >>> >>> ============================================ >>> >>> >>> >>> Attachmant C >>> >>> >>> >>> *Destruction of Cultural Symbols :** >>> Reprehensible History of Fanatic Vandalism* >>> >>> Organiser, November 14, 2004 >>> >>> Desecration, damage and destruction of temples is not a new and unusual >>> phenomenon. The process has been continuously going on ever since Kashmir >>> passed into the political domination of Muslim rulers in the first quarter >>> of the fourteenth century. >>> >>> Islam, like other Semitic religions enjoins upon the faithfuls to expand >>> their religion by proselytising the heathens, infidels and kafirs >>> (non-believers) to their faith to gain religious merit. Jehad or holy war is >>> the instrument that is used for proselytisation. The Muslim rulers of >>> Kashmir, the Mughals and Pathans made full use of their political authority >>> to effect conversion of Hindus of the Valley. To achieve the objectives, it >>> became imperative for them to wipe out all traces of religious and cultural >>> symbols of Hindus, which included their temples, libraries, universities and >>> ashrams. >>> >>> In Kashmir, gunpowder was used for the first time, not for fighting a war, >>> but for destroying massive Hindu stone temples. When it was felt that the >>> fissionable material was not available in a sufficient quantity for >>> iconoclasm, the nearby jungles were cut down and used for setting on fire >>> the giant stone structures of the Hindu temples. By excessive heat the >>> stones burst, broke away and these gigantic structures crumbled in the fire >>> that spread through the length and breadth of Kashmir. The ruins of Martand, >>> Avantipur, Devar, etc. are mute witnesses of the depredation. >>> >>> *Temples** Vandalised in February 1986* >>> >>> *ANANTNAG DISTRICT:* >>> >>> 1. >>> >>> Anantnag Town: >>> >>> Two temples damaged and one looted. >>> >>> 2. >>> >>> Achhabal: >>> >>> One temple desecrated, shit thrown on idols. >>> >>> 3. >>> >>> Moripura: >>> >>> One temple demolished. >>> >>> 4. >>> >>> Sagam: >>> >>> One temple partially burnt. >>> >>> 5. >>> >>> Naogam: >>> >>> One temple partially burnt. >>> >>> 6. >>> >>> Telvani: >>> >>> One temple partially burnt. >>> >>> 7. >>> >>> Gautamnag: >>> >>> One two-storeyed temple burnt and a dharamshala stoned. >>> >>> 8. >>> >>> Krangsoo: >>> >>> Pujari Baba of a temple beaten. >>> >>> 9. >>> >>> Akura (Mattan): >>> >>> One temple and its entire property looted and shed set on fire. >>> >>> 10. >>> >>> Dialgam: >>> >>> One temple heavily damaged by stoning. >>> >>> 11. >>> >>> Salar: >>> >>> One temple set on fire. >>> >>> 12. >>> >>> Aishmuqam: >>> >>> One temple set on fire. >>> >>> 13. >>> >>> Bijbehara town: >>> >>> Two temples completely looted; ancient idol valued at more than Rs 10 lakh >>> broken; Jai Devi temple desecrated and idol stolen. >>> >>> 14. >>> >>> Wanpoh (Gasipura): >>> >>> Two temples and samadhi of Swami Dama Kak completely burnt. >>> >>> 15. >>> >>> Dhanav (Bogund): >>> >>> Two temples and one dharamshala burnt. >>> >>> 16. >>> >>> Chogam: >>> >>> One temple stoned; its doors, windows and three pillars broken. >>> >>> 17. >>> >>> Verinag: >>> >>> One temple on the parikrama of the holy spring damaged, doors broken, idols >>> thrown into the spring. Pawan Sandhya, a religious teerth, converted into a >>> place for construction of mosque. >>> >>> 18. >>> >>> Larkipora: >>> >>> Three temples of Goddess Durga, Siddha Lakshmi and Shiva completely burnt; >>> idols broken into pieces. >>> >>> 19. >>> >>> Fatehpura: >>> >>> One temple completely burnt alongwith its entrance gate; ancient Shiva idol >>> broken into pieces. >>> >>> 20. >>> >>> Quill (Pulwama): >>> >>> One temple damaged partially. >>> >>> 21. >>> >>> Trisal: >>> >>> One temple stoned; compound wall of another temple damaged. >>> >>> 22. >>> >>> Pawan Sandhya: >>> >>> Converted into mosque. >>> >>> *SRINAGAR DISTRICT:* >>> >>> 23. >>> >>> Ganpatyar (Srinagar): >>> >>> Temple heavily stoned. >>> >>> 24. >>> >>> Jawahar Nagar: >>> >>> Shiva Mandir desecrated and damaged; its property brought out and consigned >>> to flames. >>> >>> 25. >>> >>> Maisuma: >>> >>> Dashnami akhara, from where Charri Mubarak leaves for holy Amarnath cave >>> burnt down. >>> >>> 26. >>> >>> Raghunath Mandir: >>> >>> Damaged by stoning. >>> >>> 27. >>> >>> Tulamulla: >>> >>> One temple in the village burnt. >>> >>> 28. >>> >>> Waskura: >>> >>> The famous temple of Mata Rupa Bhawani partially burnt. >>> >>> 29. >>> >>> Gandherbal: >>> >>> Two temples burnt and two temples damaged. >>> >>> *BUDGAM DISTRICT:* >>> >>> 30. >>> >>> Yachhgam: >>> >>> One temple partially damaged. >>> >>> 31. >>> >>> Badgam town: >>> >>> Sharda temple damaged. >>> >>> 32. >>> >>> Chadura: >>> >>> One temple damaged. >>> >>> *KUPWARA DISTRICT:* >>> >>> 33. >>> >>> Tekpora: >>> >>> One temple burnt. >>> >>> 34. >>> >>> Lalpura: >>> >>> One temple burnt. >>> >>> 35. >>> >>> Handwara: >>> >>> One temple damaged. >>> >>> *BARAMULLA DISTRICT:* >>> >>> 36. >>> >>> Baramulla town: >>> >>> One temple partially damaged. >>> >>> 37. >>> >>> Venkura: >>> >>> One temple fully damaged. >>> >>> 38. >>> >>> Sopore: >>> >>> One temple partially damaged. >>> >>> 39. >>> >>> Bandipora: >>> >>> One temple partially burnt. >>> >>> >>> >>> After India achieved freedom and Kashmir acceded to the Union of India, >>> temple desecration was resumed. Temple lands, cremation grounds, etc. of >>> Hindus were usurped for expansion of Islam. The famous Bhairavnath temple of >>> Chattabal, Srinagar was locked up by the police. The judicial case pending >>> in court concerning this temple was never allowed to be decided. Precious >>> lands around Hari Parbat hill, Durganag temple of Srinagar and lands at >>> several Hindu places of worship in the Valley were slowly and steadily >>> turned into lands under occupation of Muslim trusts (Maqboozai-Ahali-Islam). >>> In 1967, Shivala temple, Chotta Nazar, Srinagar was desecrated. Again in >>> 1984 Shri Hanuman temple at Hari Singh High Street was damaged and in the >>> same year Arya Samaj temple of Wazir Bagh, Srinagar was burnt down. From >>> 1986, the law and order situation in the Valley deteriorated day by day and >>> temple desecration became the order of the day. >>> >>> >>> >>> After India achieved freedom and Kashmir acceded to the Union of India, >>> temple desecration was resumed. Temple lands, cremation grounds, etc. of >>> Hindus were usurped for expansion of Islam. >>> >>> *Temples** desecrated, damaged or destroyed in response to community calls >>> for Jehad from 1987 to 1990* >>> >>> 1. >>> >>> Sri Puran Raja Bhairav at Hawal, Srinagar (completely burnt). >>> >>> 2. >>> >>> Vandev Mandir, Hari Parbat (completely burnt). >>> >>> 3. >>> >>> Kathlishwar Mandir, Zaindar Mohalla, Srinagar (partly damaged). >>> >>> 4. >>> >>> Gouri Shanker Mandir, Kani-Kadal (damaged). >>> >>> 5. >>> >>> Somyar Mandir, Habba Kaddal shopping complex (completely burnt). >>> >>> 6. >>> >>> Shiva Mandir, Shetalnath, Srinagar (burnt). >>> >>> 7. >>> >>> Shiva Mandir, Malapora, Srinagar (burnt). >>> >>> 8. >>> >>> Shailputri Asthapan Mandir, Baramulla (burnt). >>> >>> 9. >>> >>> Gautam Nag Mandir, Anantnag (attacks have been frequent). >>> >>> 10. >>> >>> Raghunath Mandir, Anantnag (attacks have been frequent). >>> >>> 11. >>> >>> Tikipora Mandir, Kupwara. >>> >>> 12. >>> >>> Sri Lakshmi Narayan Mandir, Bulbul Lankar, Srinagar (ancient priceless idol >>> removed by breaking one of the temple walls). >>> >>> 13. >>> >>> Temple at Shopian with four buildings and shopping complex burnt. The mahant >>> at Napli mercilessly beaten; a south Indian sadhu assisting the mahant was >>> asked to kill a cow. Pine, walnut, apple, kikar and poplar trees spread over >>> 18 kanals of temple land to a great extent were destroyed. The sadhu >>> identified some people of Danda Mohalla, mainly one Hussan Dand and Kuda >>> Dand, leading the mob besides Jamaat-i-Islami workers on carnage. >>> >>> 14. >>> >>> Idols in Shiva Mandir, Batayar (desecrated). >>> >>> 15. >>> >>> Holy spring with Shiva idol desecrated at Khrew, resulting in Hindu-Muslim >>> conflict in the village. >>> >>> >>> >>> *Temples** desecrated and damaged in Kashmir from 1990 to December 1992* >>> >>> *1. DASHNAMI AKHARA, SRINAGAR* >>> On the opposite side of the shopping complex of WAKF building, housing a >>> library, reading room and an office of Jamaat-i-Islami, lies the age-old >>> akhara in Badshah Chowk, Srinagar. The temple in the akhara is surrounded by >>> three storeyed shopping-cum-hotel-cum-office complex on three sides. There >>> is a beautiful park in the premises, dharamshalas for sadhus, residence of >>> the mahant, etc. The akhara has provided a vast area to Suraj Transport >>> Company for use as godown and parking space on rent. The akhara has been a >>> chronic eyesore to the Jamaat-i-Islami. It was attacked countless times but >>> in early 1990, mobs forced entry into the premises causing a devastating >>> fire, and loss of property in crores in godowns and a portion of mahant's >>> residence. CRPF suffered heavy injuries while protecting the temple. >>> >>> *2. GANPATYAR TEMPLE* >>> Ganpatyar has been attracting mob attacks right from 1953. Al-Aksa episode, >>> Satanic Verses, Zia's death, fall of East Pakistan, defeat of Pakistan in >>> cricket, etc. have been the causes. From the onset of insurgency it was >>> stoned, attacked by bomb blasts and rockets on various occasions but CRPF in >>> one of its dharamshalas saved the shrine at great cost. >>> >>> *3. RAGHUNATH MANDIR, SRINAGAR* >>> The school caught fire when the dharamshala of the temple was set on fire in >>> early 1990 while worshipping in the temple was forbidden. However, the >>> worshippers refused to stop worship. The premises were set on fire. >>> >>> *4. SHIVA TEMPLE, JAWAHAR NAGAR, SRINAGAR* >>> The property in the dharamshala was brought out along with some puja >>> material and idols from the temple; some removed and some consigned to >>> flames. >>> >>> *5. HANUMAN MANDIR, SRINAGAR* >>> Desecrated long before the start of insurgency which necessitated >>> round-the-clock CRPF guard. The massive Panchamukhi Hanuman idol suffered >>> some damage in early 1990. >>> >>> *6. SHIVA TEMPLE, BARBAR SHAH, SRINAGAR* >>> It was desecrated a number of times. What is desecrated is not safe. >>> Desecration itself is heinous sacrilege. >>> >>> *7. JAI DEVI TEMPLE, BIJBEHARA* >>> Desecrated, idols stoned, compound wall broken in 1986. >>> >>> *8. VIJESHWAR TEMPLE, BIJBEHARA* >>> Night soil was thrown on 10 Shiva lingas inside the temple in 1986, and >>> compound wall broken. >>> >>> *9. SHIVA MANDIR, BIJBEHARA* >>> Ancient idols valued over Rs 10 lakhs in the shrine were looted in 1986. >>> >>> *10. RAGHUNATH TEMPLE, ANANTNAG* >>> According to Mahant Sukhram and other sources, mostly Muslims, it suffered >>> nine bomb attacks, seven blasts in police station, Anantnag. Refer to FIR >>> No. 307/427 dated 9-1-91. >>> >>> *11. GAUTAM NAG TEMPLE, ANANTNAG* >>> The double-storey temple (60 x 40) was burnt to ashes in presence of >>> homeguard personnel and property loss was estimated to the tune of Rs 28 >>> lakhs, leaving aside priceless ancient manuscripts in Sanskrit and Sharda. >>> The orchard on 145 canals of land with thirty thousand fruit trees was >>> mercilessly attacked by fanatical mobs, leaving hardly three thousand trees >>> to survive. >>> >>> *12. THREE TEMPLES OF LUKHBHAVAN, LARKIPURA, ANANTNAG* >>> Damaged in 1986. Subsequently repaired. Dharamshala burnt, temple suffered >>> some damage again in 1992. >>> >>> *13. WANPOH MANDIR, ANANTNAG* >>> The idols have been desecrated publicly in respect of this shrine on >>> 21-2-1992, according to sources. >>> >>> *14. SHAILPUTRI TEMPLE, BARAMULLA* >>> Damaged in 1990. >>> >>> *15. DAYALGAM MANDIR, ANANTNAG* >>> It was stoned heavily but was somehow not razed to the ground. >>> >>> *16. BHAIRAVANATH MANDIR, BARAMULLA* >>> Damaged in 1990. >>> >>> *17. BHAIRAVANATH MANDIR, SOPORE* >>> Desecrated and damaged. >>> >>> *18. RUPABHAVANI MANDIR, VASAKURA* >>> Idols, ashram utensils removed. Night soil thrown on the steps in early >>> 1990, a dozen times. Protesting Hindus of the vicinity mercilessly beaten. >>> >>> *19. KHIRBHAVANI MANDIR, GANDERBAL* >>> According to B.G. Verghese, "Its origin goes to epic times. The security >>> forces in its precincts attracted rocket attacks on April 4, 1991, which >>> chipped some concrete off the outer gate. It again came under attack on May >>> 4. Bullet marks can be seen on the other structures." >>> >>> *20. SHIVA TEMPLE, GANDERBAL* >>> Desecrated and damaged. >>> >>> *21. MATTAN TEMPLE, ANANTNAG* >>> A mob entered the premises, after namaz, claiming it to be a Muslim shrine. >>> >>> *Minister of State for Home, Shri M.M. Jacob told the Lok Sabha on 12-3-1993 >>> that 38 places of worship were damaged in J&K state, 13 in 1989, nine in >>> 1990 and 16 in 1991.* >>> >>> *DETAILS OF THE TEMPLES DESTROYED IN J&K STATE AFTER DECEMBER 6, 1992* >>> >>> *DISTRICT ANANTANAG* >>> >>> *S.No* >>> >>> *Date* >>> >>> *Description of Temple* >>> >>> *FIR No.* >>> >>> *Police Station* >>> >>> 1. >>> >>> 8.12.1992 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> - -- >>> "The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and >>> write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn." >>> Alvin Toffler >>> >>> http://wanderlustt.blogspot.com >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Jul 7 22:04:46 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:04:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat In-Reply-To: References: <9c06aab30807030822v65264b07p88ebd5cc5073e451@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807042319q7a21c959o48997e85552e7021@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807042337o38b04d5bkc07fe6c96999a7f8@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807042340g66fa86aep87c5b19a955e7b80@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807070934h51ef0d60q538017a27e7a9b@mail.gmail.com> Dear Radhikarajen, As a Hindu I demand that temple trusts and boards, especially those formed by governments such as in the case of Amarnath and Vaishnu Devi, should publish their audited accounts. I demand that this should be done even if dargahs and churches and temples are not doing so, not only because they are not government bodies, but also because as a Hindu I would first demand accountability with what is being done in the name of my religion - in my name. As for teh Rajiv, Indira, Nehru, Rahul baba foundations and such like, I am sure they already do so as they are accountable to the Auditor General. The SASB, however, insisted that they are not even answerable to the legislature! best shivam On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 1:09 PM, wrote: > Hi, Shivam, > > your thought regarding accountability of funds of any religious place, visited by devotees is really laudable, but it should uniformly apply to all the places be it the darga, or a church and any ppace where worshippers have gone to have the feel of spiritual well being, or for faith. > > That apart, would you ask for the accounts of Rajiv Gandhi Foundation, Nehru and Indira gandhi Foundation which keeps the charisma of money from not melting.? > > In these funds are from general citizens tax paid money, irrespective of their religion and faith, any explanations as to how the funds are utilised except five star dinners for seminars of non-consequence.! > > Regards. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 12:10 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat > To: Pawan Durani > Cc: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, sarai list > >> You mean to say they HAVE published accounts? You mean to say they are >> NOT collecting in the name of donations? I mean, I went to Baltal >> yesterday and saw the 'donation' receipts and all, spoke to a lot of >> people... but you seem to have a monopoly on facts >> >> On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > If only you know the facts , Mr Jor Na Less Stick..... >> > >> > On 7/5/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> >> >> Actually the ISI refused to finance my trip because Pakistan is not >> >> taking any interest in Kashmir. Separatists here are both surprised >> >> and relieved that PTV did not pay attention to the mass >> uprising. So >> >> my employers were forced to finance my trip. Would you like to >> look at >> >> the bills and accounts? You might also wants to ask the Shri >> Amarnath>> Shrine Board, in the same vein, to publish their >> accounts. As a Hindu >> >> I demand to know how they have been spending the money they collect >> >> from Muslim (Gujjar, Kashmiri) ponywalas and tentwalas, which they >> >> collect as compulsory taxes but show as voluntary donation. Oh >> and the >> >> 20 years old Vaishnu Devi Shrine Board has never published its >> >> accounts either... >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 12:57 PM, wrote: >> >> > Hi, Shivam, >> >> > >> >> > who is financing your stay in Srinagar, it looks like you >> are being >> >> > held hostage with good food and your thoughts are that of a >> hostage talking >> >> > good about his kidnappers.! By the way I hope you are guest >> of Gulam nabi or >> >> > Mufti as both are known spin doctors who use the bakras like >> you.?>> > >> >> > Regards. >> >> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् >> >> > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:53 pm >> >> > Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in >> Etalaat>> > To: sarai list >> >> > >> >> >> Tolerant Kashmiris >> >> >> 26 June, 2008 08:10:48 >> >> >> http://www.etalaat.net/english/viewpoint/editorial/1111.html >> >> >> >> >> >> Vested interests are all out to communalize the on-going >> agitation>> >> against transfer of forest land to the Amarnath >> Shrine Board. Time and >> >> >> again it has been made clear that the on-going agitation is not >> >> >> against the Yatra or the Yatries. The agitation is against >> >> >> politicization of the Yatra. Kashmiris want the government >> to entrust >> >> >> the job of conducting and facilitating Yatra to the local >> people who >> >> >> have been conducting it effectively since 1860. >> >> >> >> >> >> To understand the on-going agitation against land transfer >> in its >> >> >> right perspectives one has to look into the history of >> Kashmir.When>> >> important decisions concerning the future of >> Kashmir were taken >> >> >> Kashmiris were always ignored. In 1947 a decision was >> imposed on the >> >> >> reluctant people and since then the trend continues. In >> early 60s the >> >> >> government of India omitted Article 238 from Indian >> constitution and >> >> >> thus rendered article 370 infructious. The Article 370 which >> >> >> guarantees a special status to the state of Jammu Kashmir >> reads: "Not >> >> >> withstanding any thing nothing in Article 238 shall apply to >> the state >> >> >> of Jammu Kashmir." Article 370 is still there but article >> 238 which >> >> >> contained the heart and soul of 370 is not there in the >> constitution.>> >> Kashmiris to this day do not know about this fraud. >> >> >> >> >> >> Similarly the government of India abolished the permit >> system which >> >> >> required the non-state subjects to obtain a permit for >> entering the >> >> >> state. Again the people were not taken into confidence. In >> 1975 a >> >> >> popular movement was strangled. Again the people did not >> protest. In >> >> >> 1978 the draconian public safety act (PSA) was framed. >> People did not >> >> >> protest. In 1984 TADA was extended to the state. People remained >> >> >> silent. The Gulmarg issue shook them and the transfer of >> land did the >> >> >> miracle. Even this time the government had taken the people for >> >> >> granted. >> >> >> >> >> >> People are angry but they have not thrown caution to the >> winds. They >> >> >> have upheld the high traditions of tolerance and have not >> harmed any >> >> >> Yatri or a tourist. This is exactly what Islam teaches them. The >> >> >> Yatries are welcome and so are the tourists. Kashmiris are >> known for >> >> >> their hospitality and they will not disappoint the pilgrims >> and other >> >> >> guests. >> >> >> >> >> >> History is witness to the fact that Kashmiris have always >> protected>> >> their non-Muslim brethren. Hundreds of instances >> can be quoted to >> >> >> prove the point. However, the following incident shall >> suffice. A >> >> >> person who retired as the Chief Conservator of Forests lived in >> >> >> Shahr-e-Khaas during his college days. One day while on his >> way to the >> >> >> college he was intercepted by a crowd. Taken for a Bakra (A >> supporter>> >> of Mirwaiz Yusuf Shah) he was given sound >> thrashing. Somehow he ran >> >> >> away but only to be caught by another violent group. This >> time he was >> >> >> taken for a Sher (Supporter of Sheikh Abdullah) and beaten >> to pulp. >> >> >> Again he managed his escape. When caught for the third time, he >> >> >> shouted: "I am a Pandit." Nobody touched him this time. He >> was given >> >> >> safe passage. >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with>> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> >> >> list >> >> >> List archive: >> >> > >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: >> > >> > From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Jul 7 22:10:58 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:10:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Talibanisation of India In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807070925g46c21a34wa67ad3f2ca8f0a66@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690802220402n297cfab6jafb8b76cb8982251@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807070922q532bbc92i6baa06d079959538@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807070925l54ae01b9q728f989b0126c552@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807070925g46c21a34wa67ad3f2ca8f0a66@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807070940r3166e277o49858f6b94af854d@mail.gmail.com> Oh, something DID happen on this front! India was just saved from Talibanisation, but Aditya Raj Kaul never told us so we could celebrate! best shivam o o o o Sale/purchase of Hindu temple properties in Kashmir J&K government imposes blanket ban Kavita Suri http://kashmirperspective.org/newsDetails.jsp?kValue=68&jkjFFHioyoiyoyoytt=ggg JAMMU, MAY 06: In what could be termed as a major success for the Kashmiri Pandits groups who were demanding a blanket ban on the sale and purchase of temples and Hindu shrine properties in Kashmir valley, the Jammu and Kashmir government has formally issued orders for banning such sales in future in Kashmir. This step would go a long way in ensuring that the temples and religious properties of hundreds and thousands of displaced Kashmiri Pandit are not sold and could remain intact. As per the government order, anybody who has to buy or sale Hindu temple properties in Kashmir,he or she has to seek government's permission for the same. "All the deputy commissioners Kashmir will ensure that no extracts of revenue records are issued to any Mahant/manager or their representatives for any Shrine property, without prior written permission the concerned Deputy Commissioner," said a letter issued by Mr Asgar Samoon, Secretary to J&K government, revenue department. It further adds that the government itself can investigate such deals and would take action in three months. In the past few years, property worth corres of rupees belonging to Hindu shrines and their religious trust has been sold allegedly to land mafia in Kashmir valley. The issue of sale of Hindu temple properties had generated a debate in J&K legislative assembly in January early this year following which the government had assured that it would ban such sales. "Following this, the government deputed an inquiry officer to probe such alleged sale deeds. His report revealed that there have been some violations in the process of the sale and purchase of the land belonging to religious institutions of Kashmir Pandits in Kashmir valley," said Mr Samoon adding therefore in order to safeguard the Hindu temple properties, the J&K government ordered ban on it. Now, no sale deal can be registered without prior approval of the Deputy Commissioner of the concerned area. Mr Sanjay Tickoo, president, Kashmiri Pandit Sangarsh Samiti, whose organization took up this issue, is upbeat about the decision. "The temple properties in Kashmir value over Rs 300 crore which is a big money and influential people are selling and buying these properties which we resisted," said Mr Tickoo who now demands that all such deals involving the temple properties after 1990 be cancelled and accounts of the trusts be sealed. From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Jul 7 22:11:53 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:11:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amarnath row reignites Azadi sentiments In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70807031101uc92396eoe35ae3e201ae031c@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030803x4bec38cer3b90a7001304f956@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807031101uc92396eoe35ae3e201ae031c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807070941l12d44d2cm10db4db6153c735c@mail.gmail.com> > And the Jammu news doesnt appeal to the born slaves. as in, who? do clarify best shivam On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 11:31 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > And the Jammu news doesnt appeal to the born slaves. > > On 7/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> Dear Shivam, >> >> Thank you for your reports from the valley. They help us get a >> clearer image of the situation and what people are thinking and saying. >> >> best >> >> Shuddha >> On 03-Jul-08, at 8:33 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> > [As published this morning] >> > >> > >> > Amarnath row reignites azadi sentiment >> > >> > Shivam Vij / Srinagar >> > Sakaal Times / 3 July >> > http://epaper.sakaaltimes.com >> > >> > >> > The writing on the wall is clear: The Kashmiri demand for independence >> > from India is not over yet. Separatist leaders and commoners alike >> > have hailed the withdrawal of the land transfer order as the victory >> > of the Kashmiri people and called to revitalise the azadi movement. >> > >> > This is clearly a turning point in the 20-year-old militant struggle. >> > There is also talk of boycotting the coming assembly polls and >> > reunification of the two factions of the Hurriyat Conference. The mood >> > was reflected in every local daily's frontpage headlines. PEOPLE WIN, >> > said Greater Kashmir. Kashmir Savours Victory, said the Kashmir >> > Observer. Kashmir win, said Amroze Kashmir. VICTORY! said Etalaat. >> > People win, Order revoked, said Kashmir Monitor. >> > >> > The emphasis that it was a people's agitation rather than one of >> > leaders is shared by everyone. The sentiment is shared by every taxi >> > driver, shopkeeper, houseboat-owner, journalist — too widespread >> > to be >> > brushed away as anybody's political gimmick. The agitation was lead by >> > the ACALT committee which had, apart from Hurriyat leaders, apolitical >> > religious leaders, representatives from trade and transporters' >> > organisation's, the Kashmir Chambers of Commerce and the Bar Council. >> > >> > Vehement support was given by the Valley's Sikhs and most Kashmiri >> > Pandit organisations as well. The biggest winner is Hurriyat leader >> > Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who was the first to begin mobilising the >> > public with a signature campaign. In a press conference on Wednesday, >> > he emphasised: "This punctures New Delhi's theory that our movement is >> > standing on Pakistani support," he said, adding, "did you see a single >> > agitator using violence?" "The movement lives on in the hearts and >> > minds of the people," he told Sakaal Times. >> > >> > The relatively smooth rule of the PDP-Congress coalition and the >> > decline in militancy had led observers to believe that people's >> > participation in polls could increase. "Nobody will vote now," said >> > Etalaat editor Zahiruddin. In fact NC's Omar Abdullah is believed to >> > have said as much to the NSA in his meeting with him in Delhi. >> > >> > "Mainstream politicians in the Valley who believed the movement was on >> > its deathbed have got a rude jolt," he said. "This is very unpleasant >> > for the Indian government and intelligence agencies who were already >> > talking of a postconflict scenario," says human rights activist Parvez >> > Imroz. >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Jul 7 22:14:36 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:14:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amarnath row reignites Azadi sentiments In-Reply-To: <47e122a70807050159p7c8cf91du994eac40442e6b6f@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030803x4bec38cer3b90a7001304f956@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807031101uc92396eoe35ae3e201ae031c@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70807040733k378dced3w9c4fff488ff89595@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70807050159p7c8cf91du994eac40442e6b6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807070944m9ea0eb7g5b869f5bcb9ca483@mail.gmail.com> Inder, Pawan is not interested in grass but blood. He seems to suggest that Kashmir's grass is soaked exclusively with Hindu blood, and the Muslims are happily enoying their picnic on that grass, and the grass has no Muslim blood. In fact Pawan went to Kashmir, the part which Panun Kashmir wants as Pandit zone, and did DNA tests on the grass and has successfully established that Muslim blood never touched it. best shivam On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 2:29 PM, inder salim wrote: > dear pawan ji > > it looks u are interested in the GRASS only > > i too once had a deep facination of the grass, but time move and i see > there are other things too which can intoxicate > > love > > On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 8:03 PM, inder salim wrote: >> now POLITICALLY, i see, THERE IS A DEEP MISTRUST BETWEEN HINDUS AND >> MUSLIMS OF JAMMU AND KASHMIR AND YET THERE IS SO MUCH OF TRADE, >> FRIENDSHIP AND HARMONEY AT THE GRASS ROOT LEVEL...but politics seems >> to win in the ends, sadly.... >> >> now since this sharp divide has come to the fore, i find this an >> opportunity to doubt the existence of the God.... i dont personally >> want a debate on that.... but we can atleast behaves like SCEPTICS... >> that might perhaps give us a chance to realize the minds of saints >> poets and wise people in the past and in the present...if that had not >> happened they too might not have been there..... even prophets and >> gods have come to to earth because they had the courage to doubt ... >> >> i guess it is this doubt that gives us the idea of universal love.... >> strong belief in this or that might finally harm our own undertanding >> of the self... >> >> choice is ours >> >> with love >> inder salim >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 11:31 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >>> And the Jammu news doesnt appeal to the born slaves. >>> >>> On 7/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Shivam, >>>> >>>> Thank you for your reports from the valley. They help us get a >>>> clearer image of the situation and what people are thinking and saying. >>>> >>>> best >>>> >>>> Shuddha >>>> On 03-Jul-08, at 8:33 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >>>> >>>> > [As published this morning] >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Amarnath row reignites azadi sentiment >>>> > >>>> > Shivam Vij / Srinagar >>>> > Sakaal Times / 3 July >>>> > http://epaper.sakaaltimes.com >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > The writing on the wall is clear: The Kashmiri demand for independence >>>> > from India is not over yet. Separatist leaders and commoners alike >>>> > have hailed the withdrawal of the land transfer order as the victory >>>> > of the Kashmiri people and called to revitalise the azadi movement. >>>> > >>>> > This is clearly a turning point in the 20-year-old militant struggle. >>>> > There is also talk of boycotting the coming assembly polls and >>>> > reunification of the two factions of the Hurriyat Conference. The mood >>>> > was reflected in every local daily's frontpage headlines. PEOPLE WIN, >>>> > said Greater Kashmir. Kashmir Savours Victory, said the Kashmir >>>> > Observer. Kashmir win, said Amroze Kashmir. VICTORY! said Etalaat. >>>> > People win, Order revoked, said Kashmir Monitor. >>>> > >>>> > The emphasis that it was a people's agitation rather than one of >>>> > leaders is shared by everyone. The sentiment is shared by every taxi >>>> > driver, shopkeeper, houseboat-owner, journalist — too widespread >>>> > to be >>>> > brushed away as anybody's political gimmick. The agitation was lead by >>>> > the ACALT committee which had, apart from Hurriyat leaders, apolitical >>>> > religious leaders, representatives from trade and transporters' >>>> > organisation's, the Kashmir Chambers of Commerce and the Bar Council. >>>> > >>>> > Vehement support was given by the Valley's Sikhs and most Kashmiri >>>> > Pandit organisations as well. The biggest winner is Hurriyat leader >>>> > Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who was the first to begin mobilising the >>>> > public with a signature campaign. In a press conference on Wednesday, >>>> > he emphasised: "This punctures New Delhi's theory that our movement is >>>> > standing on Pakistani support," he said, adding, "did you see a single >>>> > agitator using violence?" "The movement lives on in the hearts and >>>> > minds of the people," he told Sakaal Times. >>>> > >>>> > The relatively smooth rule of the PDP-Congress coalition and the >>>> > decline in militancy had led observers to believe that people's >>>> > participation in polls could increase. "Nobody will vote now," said >>>> > Etalaat editor Zahiruddin. In fact NC's Omar Abdullah is believed to >>>> > have said as much to the NSA in his meeting with him in Delhi. >>>> > >>>> > "Mainstream politicians in the Valley who believed the movement was on >>>> > its deathbed have got a rude jolt," he said. "This is very unpleasant >>>> > for the Indian government and intelligence agencies who were already >>>> > talking of a postconflict scenario," says human rights activist Parvez >>>> > Imroz. >>>> > _________________________________________ >>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>> Raqs Media Collective >>>> shuddha at sarai.net >>>> www.sarai.net >>>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Jul 7 22:50:38 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:50:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Kashmiri Pandits should be the ones runningAmarnath Board' In-Reply-To: References: <9c06aab30807030820i455ee117l53180ccd5cb5bb48@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807042336i295de18fqa3c92c1333142952@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807042336g12b0672ds27d01e5e96355166@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807071020i422e1363y309de8bf537c9481@mail.gmail.com> As I had promised in my first mail on this thread, I am posting here a more direct story about Sikhs and Kashmiri Pandits *in the Valley* supporting the demand of revocation of the land "diversion" order. This is just to establish "facts", as demanded, and if you want to respond to it then please don't take us into ROFLs and PDP's stances on unpassed laws or sentimental issues about sentiments - just facts please? And if the objection is that the article below was published by a paper whose ownership / editorship are dubious, then those who have been quoted can be asked to verify whether they really did say what they were quoted as saying. I mean, it is quite amazing for a KP organisation to say that they are disappointed with Geelani & Co for not including them in the Action Committee Against Land Transfer. best shivam o o o o o Non-migrant KPs ready to take charge of yatra Abid Bashir Srinagar, June 28: http://www.risingkashmir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4748 Breaking their silence over the controversial land transfer issue, non-migrant Kashmiri Pandits (KPs) on Saturday said they are ready to take charge of the Amarnath cave and organise the yatra jointly with the Muslims. "We have been demanding that the charge of all temples should be given to us. Majority of our temples are being handled by the outsiders, which is unfortunate. Amarnath cave is of a great importance in our religion. We are ready to take its charge and organise the yatra at our own," President Kashmiri Pandit Sangarsh Samiti (KPSS), Sanjay Tickoo told Rising Kashmir. About the controversial land transfer issue that has claimed four lives including a 24-year-old girl over the past six days of brewing anger, Tickoo said, Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB) has no right to use the land that belongs to Kashmiri people. The government should revoke its order and give back the land to the Forest Department, he said. "There is not a single KP member in SASB. We do not need it. The SASB should be dissolved," Tickoo said. "We will form our own board, if needed. We would definitely need the help of Muslims to set up tents to accommodate yatris as they have been doing in the past. We would also need the help of ponywallas to ferry aged and ailing yatris." However the KPSS President has a grudge with the Action Committee Against Land Transfer (ACALT) for not inviting them when the Committee was formed. "There should have been at least one KP member in this Committee but that did not happen. Syed Ali Shah Geelani has said that the yatra should be handed over to KPs but why were we ignored when ACALT was formed," questioned Tickoo. He said Geelani and Mirwaiz Umar Farooq should help them build pressure on the government to pass the Temple Bill on Kashmir so that they could get back the charge of all temples across Kashmir. Tickoo urged the people of Kashmir to stand up against vested interests who are triggering communal frenzy in Kashmir. Another non-migrant organisation, Hindu Welfare Society (HWS) said they have been demanding to form a KPs Auquaf Trust to handle all Hindu temples across Kashmir. "See, the irony is the priests from outside are handling our temples. We have been sidelined and the government is acting like a mute spectator over the past so many years," said Chuni Lal Bhat, spokesman HWS. He said every inch of Kashmir's land belongs to the people of Kashmir and Government should revoke the land transfer order forthwith. "We can manage yatra ourself. There is no need of SASB," Bhat said. From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Jul 7 22:54:54 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:54:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70807040248o33f2c3b8pe1b13032851509a7@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030822v65264b07p88ebd5cc5073e451@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990807040236t59f8c6a3i60b18844fae371cf@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807040248o33f2c3b8pe1b13032851509a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807071024m16b883a3w2505bd045ce6c441@mail.gmail.com> > you are not in public life....Shivam is . He is a journalist who creates > public opinions. Partha is just as much in public life as me, I humbly submit, because he is using this list to influence public opinion. So don't target me by way of my profession. I am not on this list by virtue of my profession and am not engaging on that count. So please stop these below-the-belt attacks. > Lastly ......what made Ghulam Nabi Azaad impose curfew in Jammu , while as > Kashmir was let loose.. Good question. And another one: what made the CRPF kill six in the Kashmir protests, but not one has died in Jammu? best shivam On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 3:18 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Partha , > > you are not in public life....Shivam is . He is a journalist who creates > public opinions. > > That makes a difference. > > Lastly ......what made Ghulam Nabi Azaad impose curfew in Jammu , while as > Kashmir was let loose.. > > Pawan > > > On 7/4/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: >> >> Dear Radhikarajen, >> >> 1. I have friends, some of whom are Muslims. When I make friends, I >> look at whether >> or not I like them and if I can vibe with them. There caste / >> relegion or even lack >> thereof is irrelevant to me. >> >> 2. I stay in my own house and eat my own food. Though I do travel to >> my friends house >> and eat there as well. >> >> Does this mean that my body or mind is being held hostage? >> >> That logic is ridiculous. If you disagree with any statement or >> position that someone has taken, go ahead and disagree. >> >> However, none of us have super powers to be able to read anyone's mind >> and know why they are saying what - unless you're going to claim you >> do? >> >> Rgds, Partha >> .................................................. >> >> On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 12:57 PM, wrote: >> > Hi, Shivam, >> > >> > who is financing your stay in Srinagar, it looks like you are being >> held hostage with good food and your thoughts are that of a hostage talking >> good about his kidnappers.! By the way I hope you are guest of Gulam nabi or >> Mufti as both are known spin doctors who use the bakras like you.? >> > >> > Regards. >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् >> > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:53 pm >> > Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat >> > To: sarai list >> > >> >> Tolerant Kashmiris >> >> 26 June, 2008 08:10:48 >> >> http://www.etalaat.net/english/viewpoint/editorial/1111.html >> >> >> >> Vested interests are all out to communalize the on-going agitation >> >> against transfer of forest land to the Amarnath Shrine Board. Time and >> >> again it has been made clear that the on-going agitation is not >> >> against the Yatra or the Yatries. The agitation is against >> >> politicization of the Yatra. Kashmiris want the government to entrust >> >> the job of conducting and facilitating Yatra to the local people who >> >> have been conducting it effectively since 1860. >> >> >> >> To understand the on-going agitation against land transfer in its >> >> right perspectives one has to look into the history of Kashmir.When >> >> important decisions concerning the future of Kashmir were taken >> >> Kashmiris were always ignored. In 1947 a decision was imposed on the >> >> reluctant people and since then the trend continues. In early 60s the >> >> government of India omitted Article 238 from Indian constitution and >> >> thus rendered article 370 infructious. The Article 370 which >> >> guarantees a special status to the state of Jammu Kashmir reads: "Not >> >> withstanding any thing nothing in Article 238 shall apply to the state >> >> of Jammu Kashmir." Article 370 is still there but article 238 which >> >> contained the heart and soul of 370 is not there in the constitution. >> >> Kashmiris to this day do not know about this fraud. >> >> >> >> Similarly the government of India abolished the permit system which >> >> required the non-state subjects to obtain a permit for entering the >> >> state. Again the people were not taken into confidence. In 1975 a >> >> popular movement was strangled. Again the people did not protest. In >> >> 1978 the draconian public safety act (PSA) was framed. People did not >> >> protest. In 1984 TADA was extended to the state. People remained >> >> silent. The Gulmarg issue shook them and the transfer of land did the >> >> miracle. Even this time the government had taken the people for >> >> granted. >> >> >> >> People are angry but they have not thrown caution to the winds. They >> >> have upheld the high traditions of tolerance and have not harmed any >> >> Yatri or a tourist. This is exactly what Islam teaches them. The >> >> Yatries are welcome and so are the tourists. Kashmiris are known for >> >> their hospitality and they will not disappoint the pilgrims and other >> >> guests. >> >> >> >> History is witness to the fact that Kashmiris have always protected >> >> their non-Muslim brethren. Hundreds of instances can be quoted to >> >> prove the point. However, the following incident shall suffice. A >> >> person who retired as the Chief Conservator of Forests lived in >> >> Shahr-e-Khaas during his college days. One day while on his way to the >> >> college he was intercepted by a crowd. Taken for a Bakra (A supporter >> >> of Mirwaiz Yusuf Shah) he was given sound thrashing. Somehow he ran >> >> away but only to be caught by another violent group. This time he was >> >> taken for a Sher (Supporter of Sheikh Abdullah) and beaten to pulp. >> >> Again he managed his escape. When caught for the third time, he >> >> shouted: "I am a Pandit." Nobody touched him this time. He was given >> >> safe passage. >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> >> list >> >> List archive: >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> Partha Dasgupta >> +919811047132 >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Jul 7 22:59:10 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:59:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Thank you, Governor' - editorial in Etalaat In-Reply-To: <13df7c120807032125q7be20f1cua4e45d880b19b439@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030827t29e19cbbk22d3f6205842b79@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120807032125q7be20f1cua4e45d880b19b439@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807071029p76196095w84e1d292bd093346@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rashneek, If you are saying that the editorial has been written from a 'separatist' perspective, I agree, that it is indeed written from such a perspective. As much is clear when it says, "The alienation is as deep as it was in 1947" and proceeds to thanks the former governor for reviving the 'movement'. best shivam On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 9:55 AM, rashneek kher wrote: > Shivam Bhai, > > Akhbar to kum se kum dang ke doonda karo...Eatllat is owned by A Hurriyat > member...so is Rising Kashmir by an influential separtist.Do you expect > Narendra Modi to sing paeans to Secularism... > Jago bhai > > Rashneek > > > On 7/3/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> Thank you Governor >> 24 June, 2008 09:00:00 >> http://www.etalaat.net/english/viewpoint/editorial/1039.html >> >> >> The Action Committee against Land Transfer has a strong argument when >> it says that the local Pandits must be entrusted with the job of >> facilitating and conducting the Yatra. They have done it in the past >> and, therefore, have the experience to conduct a smooth Yatra. There >> is absolutely no need of politicizing a pilgrimage which till >> yesterday was a symbol of communal harmony. Entrusting the job to >> local Pandits shall restore sanctity of the pilgrimage. The >> involvement of the Rajbhawan has created problems for New Delhi. >> >> There is a silver lining for Kashmiris in the transfer of forest land >> to the SASB. The SASB tried its best to dub Kashmiri Muslims as >> communalists and religious fanatics but failed. The world knows that >> Kashmiri Muslims have always upheld the high traditions of universal >> brotherhood. In 1947 when the whole of sub-continent was hot Kashmiris >> remained cool and protected their non-Muslim brethren. This was >> acknowledged by the father of Indian nation, MKC Gandhi. As far as >> Amarnath Yatra is concerned, the local Muslims have always taken an >> active part in the pilgrimage. >> >> There have been occasions when Kashmiri Muslims have protected the >> pilgrims at the cost of their own lives. The Muslims used to carry >> the pilgrims on their shoulders. The Muslims used to feed the Yatries. >> The Muslims helped them on the difficult terrain. But those were the >> good old days. Now the situation has changed. The Raj Bhawan has >> deliberately excluded the local Muslims. It has not only deprived them >> of their livelihood but caused a serious injury to their sentiments as >> well. The area from Baltal to Cave is ecologically very fragile. >> Similarly the >> route via Pahalgam is equally fragile. The heavy rush of pilgrims is >> going to have an adverse effect on the environment. It also hinders >> with the process of formation of the lingum. >> >> The Shrine Board should have followed the Uttarakand Chief Minister >> who despite severe opposition from Hindu fundamentalists restricted >> the number of Yatries to a glacier in the state. This indicates that >> the Shrine Board has a hidden agenda. It is not interested in the >> Yatra but something else. If the Governor intends to Indianise >> Kashmiris, he is destined to fail in his misadventure. For the past >> sixty years the army could not do it. The puppet regimes installed by >> New Delhi from >> time to time resorted to administrative and legislative terrorism but >> nothing has changed. >> >> The alienation is as deep as it was in 1947. The misadventures of the >> shrine Board, rather Rajbhawan are not going to serve any purpose. The >> reaction that the transfer of land has evoked does not fit anywhere in >> the scheme of New Delhi. The Governor must have been taken to task for >> putting Kashmir on fire at a `crucial' juncture. The transfer of Land >> and the arrogance of the Shrine Board chairman forced the warring >> factions of the Hurriyat Conference to forge >> unity much to the pleasure of the people of Kashmir. It also revived >> the movement which people by and large believed had almost died down. >> The movement has once again reached a stage where people willingly >> come forward to strengthen it. The land transferred to the SASB shall >> remain in Kashmir. It shall not be taken to New Delhi or elsewhere. >> But its transfer has done the much needed miracle. Thank you SASB. >> Thank you Governor. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- > Rashneek Kher > Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy > http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From indersalim at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 00:39:51 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 00:39:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured In-Reply-To: <622627.51599.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <47e122a70807070630n3bded971xed644af70150bf46@mail.gmail.com> <622627.51599.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70807071209t7b293816n77b9ca5a3ae696dc@mail.gmail.com> dear kshmendra for now, all i want to say is that i am not for any kind of nationalism.... i dont know what that will lead to, i think it will be perhpas better for humanity, if nation states disappear suddenly and enable people to move freely on this planet earth.... i have a dream, you may say it is utopian... so what. desire for nation is not bad, i have huge admiration for people like Bhagat Singh, but the the powers sturctures that cling on the that state in the name of democracy or people is fradulent. Now dont tell me that we helpless to not-to-see-the-other it is interesting to notice how people's simple faith gets translated into something necessary costly rituals... say prem chand's Govdaan, .. . i see misery for the innocent lot, and for that i have every right to undermine, a state, a religion or an identiy....and once it becomes a system that gnaws the dignity existential core of human being,..... i want to restore that one is free to remain glued to something as long as it keeps on milking other's cow. that is why i talked about morals and ethics. now see, there is a great democracy in america and england but when i comes to their foreign affairs they looks barbarians.... and i dont know how to admire their democratic systems endlessly if there is no change.... right now, everyting is stuck, just see, what their democracies did to afganistan and iraq. i have more respect for a poor afgani who has no choice but to shoot alongwith a taliban commander and work in poppy fields in comparison to some one who is drinking beer in new york while criticizing muslim fundamentalism.... in that sense, i have nothing against politics, but against the polticians who are at the helm of affairs.....as jean paul sartre says that politics enters through all the pores of your body,....and realization of that sensitizes me, realization of that reduces my arrogance, and i think that is how i want to understand politics, and that way i know what is the meaning of GAME in politics.... now you that.... now religion, i believe, the state has no business to enter the affairs of the shrine.... why on earth state should provide facilites to a piligrim... a true piligrim has to be really prepared , both physically and mentally.... and above all, SHIVA i believe is about death also... you might be knowing, there is a mountain , just one stop before the amarnath cave which is called Bhairav Baal, and it was famous for real piligirms to climb it and jump on the other side of it....a true love of shiva will be quite educated and brave and should understand the significance of death and sprituality in one go... i still dont understand how a shiva lover can throw stones at others, or burn a tyre, if one goes by the kashmiri philisophy of shivaism well you are within your rights to call it politics, but i see decadence in it at the best it is opportunism, and once it is so, it is free for all, once we realize the absence of morals and ethics in our political acitivity, we are at the mercy of goons and the politicians who love to make a fool of each one of us. about disrespect, just show me one communtiy, at grass root level, in the world history which not suffered humiliation at the hands of their rulers. that is why i am not interested in those who eulogise kings and queens for this or that.... people have suffered, even when a great king was constructing a Taj mahal or making a great wall in china, same goes for the construction of great temples and mosques.......i see pain of a human being in the form of an monument, beauty of it comes next.... that way i see the possibity of a shift in histroy, that way we can see the emergence of a new politics, a new way of living, beyond mindsets and old designs , old territories.... my dear, that muse on the classical canvas died long ago.... we are finished with waste land even, we have come to a stage when even writing a poem is impossiblity.... politics is dead in that sense...the issue is ethics, environment, and my favourite word 'love' is kicking alive, with love and regards is On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Inder Salim > > You say "i know you know well what i am talking about...." > > No Sir I do not. Either we are talking about different things or it must be the limitations of my understanding. > > It must also be the limitations of my being able to express myself that you read meanings other than what I think I have placed in my words. > > - I ddear o not know what "GAMES" you are talking about. If you explain them in simple words, I might be able to comment > > - I spoke about "respect" for "constancy" in "political positions". That could or could not translate into "respect" for the person. That also does not preclude the ones being talked about being political adversaries or being enemies of my country > > - Let me give another example. I see China as being (if not an enemy these days) inimical towards India on many fronts. Yet I have immense respect for China in many spheres. > > - Let me give another example. I see Pakistan as continuing to be an enemy of India. I have no respect for (I have contempt for) Pakistan's shifts over Kashmir especially in the context of it's duplicity with the "Hurriyat Pasand". Yet there are things about and from Pakistan I love. I love their Muslin and Men's Shalvaar Kameez, I love Mehdi Hassan and Nayyara Noor and Sabri Brothers, I love Faiz and Parveen Shakir and Amjad Islam Amjad > > - Saw your list of those you respect. I have no argument with you over that list. > > - You do not respect 'politicians'. For me that is too generalised a statement. Maybe I would not respect "some" or even "most" politicians" but the political system is essential (in my opinion) to any organised society. Irrespective of the form of Government or quality of Governance, every country has a political system. It has to have one. If there isn't one, there will be anarchy. In the case of a "democracy", the politician is of critical importance to the citizen. The Constitution allows Laws, Laws take shape from Legislation, Legislation is enacted by Legislators, Legislators are Politicians. Every aspect of the quality of life in India (for example) is directly or indirectly affected on and effected by the Politicians. You may be dismissive of Politicians if you want to be. For me Politicians are extremely important entities to be evaluated and sieved in one's judgement. > > - I am a firm believer that my final societal identity is the Passport I hold or am eligible for. All Inter- Nation interactions including those of their citizens are conditional to the Laws of each country. Yes I am a firm believer in 'nationalism'. I subscribe to Indian Nationalism. You perhaps are more tuned (correct if I have misheard the strains) into Kashmiri Nationalism. Only the forces of Nature respect no National Boundaries. All other aspects of our lives are linked to the country we belong to (because the Laws of the country govern every other aspect of our lives). Actually the Laws of a Country can even interfere with the reign of Nature, which is when Environmental Concerns take centre-stage. > > - Is the "Kashmir issue" about "Ethics & Morals"? Perhaps it is to some degree in some areas. I see it more as being about "Rights and Responsibilities" and even more so as being "Political" and about "Religion" > > - You speak about the Kashmiri "Muslims" having been disrespected. I do not understand that judgement. Perhaps you might elaborate on how the "Muslims" of Kashmir have been "disrespected". > > - You speak about the SASB affair having "undermined the sensitivity of .... Muslims". Again I do not understand how SASB affair is linked with "Kashmiri Muslims". Unless of course you yourself subscribe to the view that the SASB affair was one of Muslims against Hindus. > > (By your pointed reference to "Muslims" you seem to be in agreement with me that the "Kashmir Issue" is about "Religion") > > - You speak about " 1990 disrespect to kashmiri pandits" being about "ethics and morals". Perhaps it is to some extent. I see it more as a Political affair. I see it more as failure of governance (both at the Centre and State) in having allowed a "fear atmosphere" to develop. > > At least in this mail I see the point that you are trying to make. Correct me if I understood wrongly. You state that you "know" what you should "respect" and seem to suggest I do not "know". Fair enough. You are entitled to your judgement. > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Mon, 7/7/08, inder salim wrote: > > From: inder salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 7:00 PM > > Dear kshmendra > > i quote myself > > and once we are finished with these games.... only then we can begin > to talk about ETHICS and MORALS > > it is again your choice to ignore the most important line of my last > post... i dont feel insecure .... > > i know you know well what i am talking about.... > > now see, you take a position with regard to 'Respect', > you respect, i dont know whethere with capital R or with small r, but > u respect the politicians who are against the occupation of indian > foreces in kashmir.but strangely in the next line you think that they > are enemies of the indian state and you are Indian, right . > i > on the contrary i dont respect a politican, ....... i have respect for > a poet, a musician, an ariist, a social worker a simple worker, a job > less man frustrated by the indiferent state. i respect a poor man on > the road side, i respect a tribalman who is contantly being driven > out of his ecology , > > i respect millions of landless people in india.... i have respect for > the womens rights, i repect you has a human being and in that sense i > respect a politician even. > > yes, i respect the morals and ethics, more than being a nationalist > merely as an identity tag....i respect rebels...... i respect my > teacher AK Mir who publically slapped Mufti Mohd Syed in Bijbehara > because he as a Congress pradesh president masterminded 1986 communal > riots.... i respect a petty theif who threw shit on the judge in delhi > because he was languishing in the jail and could not afford to bail > himself out. > > i have respect for the courage.... and similarly i have respect for > those who uphold their existential beings wheenver the state or the > power structures openly supress and disrespects the ethics and morals > of the other.... > > that is why kashmir issue is about ethics and morals as well..... > > that is why the land transter to shrine board undermined the > sensitivity of the already disrespected kashmiri muslims... > > that is why 1990 disrespect to kashmiri pandits is also about ethics > and morals as well.. > > i see human being through this prism of ethics and morals ... i mix > love with it and see some possiblity to heal the self and the other at > the same time..i may fail in the end because plolitics is exercised > quite ruthlessly in india and abroad.... but i dont regret about my > position. > > at least i know what i should respect > > with love > inder salim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: >> Dear Inder Salim >> >> I wish I had understood what point you were trying to make. >> >> What I did notice is your quoting me partially and out of context and then > using that to put a spin on my words so that you could indulge in innuendos and > make judgements about me. >> >> I was talking of having respect for the 'constant political > position' of people whoever it may be. Geelani was an example for the sake > of comparing with (what I see as) hypocritical declamations of the > "moderate" Hurriyatis (especially Umar Farooq) and their claims of > their brand of the "Hurriyat" call being a 'secular' one. It > is called 'munaafaqat'. >> >> Just to explain it further, I similarly have respect for the 'constant > political position' of Yasin Malik in that he wants (or used to want) the > erstwhile princely State of Jammu & Kashmir to be an Independent Country > with it's territories freed from both Indian and Pakistani control. Again I > say this at the risk of being lynched by my KP brethren. Yasin, in proclaiming > his having eschewed violence was foolish enough to admit that he (and/or JKLF) > had previous to that indulged in 'killings' >> >> I disagree with both positions, of Geelani and Yasin, but that does not > stop me from acknowledging their constancy. >> >> Inder you talk about my 'positions' but you obviously have no idea > of what they are. You only presume. >> >> Anyone who seeks to disturb the peace in my country India is for me an > enemy of the nation. Anyone who seeks to break-up India or bring in violent > divides between it's people is for me an enemy of India. They should be > recognised as, dealt with and treated as enemies. Before your make another > presumption, the 'recognising', 'dealing with' and > 'treating' as enemies neither automatically means nor is suggested by > me should be done by repressive means or incarceration or State Violence. >> >> The affiliations of these 'enemies' are of no importance. They > could be from Hurriyat Conference, or JKLF or RSS or VHP or Bajrang Dal or SIMI > or any other organisation. >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> >> >> --- On Sun, 7/6/08, inder salim wrote: >> >> From: inder salim >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 > injured >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 11:39 PM >> >> Dear Kshmendra >> >> I quote you, "but I have much more respect for the constant political >> position of someone like Hurriyati hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani" >> >> just read your statment again and remember when Syed Ali Shah Geelani >> too said similar about RSS. He really dislkes anything secular >> because a religous stand is logical for both Geelani sahib and for >> RSS. anything else is ambigous >> >> now i quote you again, "It has amused me more to see how easily the >> likes of Umar Farooq, Prof Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other >> Hurriyat 'moderates') are able to fool people into buying their >> 'secular' credentials" >> >> just remember when Atal Behari Vajpayee wrote a poem about the sad >> demolition of Babri Mosque...The words moistened the eyes of the >> naive, but we knew how crocodile weeps... you also know it well >> >> now i know there are positions, well you are within your rights to >> hold one ... that is ok >> >> i just met a kashmiri pandit who was demonstrating at jantar mantar >> today.... and i sarcastically congratulated about the news KASHSMIR >> PANDITOON NAY TODFOD KI, ( riots by kashmir pandits ) It is perhaps >> for the first time i heard about such a news. He understood and >> replied quickly... " if we dont resort to thes acts who will listen > to >> us, we are politically irrlevant in the present political >> situation.... we need to read these situations quickly, and we do it >> from time to time. " >> >> now see how their brother is the valley do the same things for their >> own survial. for example PDP, who need to something from time to time >> to stay in relevant in the volatite politcal games being played in the >> valley..... what is so wrong about it if everything else is not. >> >> and once we are finished with these games.... only then we can being >> to talk about ETHICS and MORALS >> >> >> till then best >> >> inder salim >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 12:27 AM, Kshmendra Kaul > >> wrote: >>> Dear Sonia >>> >>> There is nothing surprising in the religious place Hazrartbal being > the >> start-point for the 'victory' rally. It only reinforces the > evaluation >> that the 'victory' was sought by one religion over the other. For > those >> who achieved the 'victory', what better place to start the > celebration >> than a Shrine/Mosque. >>> >>> Our 'secular' commentators may spout various theories and > analyses >> but those who were a part of that 'victory' were obviously honest > about >> what they had achieved and in the name of which religion. >>> >>> Whether it has been the 1931 'bread movement' or the intense >> rivalry between the 'sher' (of Sheikh Abdullah) and > 'bakra' (of >> Maulvi Farooq) or the Hurriyat (freedom/separatist) movement, the pulpits > of >> both Hazratbal and Jama Masjid have been used as much for political >> speeches/sloganeering and calls for separatism as they have been for > religious >> sermons. >>> >>> It has always amused me to see Umar Farooq (as just one example among >> others) indulge in such political speeches/sloganeering from Jama Masjid, > or >> visit and seek support from his Political Mecca of OIC (and/or Pakistan) > and >> yet at the same time hypocritically claim that the "Hurriyat" >> movement is a secular one. >>> >>> It has amused me more to see how easily the likes of Umar Farooq, Prof >> Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other Hurriyat 'moderates') > are >> able to fool people into buying their 'secular' credentials. >>> >>> My Kashmiri Pandit brethren might lynch me for saying this, but I have >> much more respect for the constant political position of someone like > Hurriyati >> hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani (even if I disagree with his arguments) > who is >> firm in his belief that J&K as Muslim Majority 'territory' > should >> be a part of Pakistan. >>> >>> I am sure you did not mean to equate the situations but I found it > strange >> that you mentioned in the same breath the "peaceful... victory > rally" >> starting from Hazratbal with "siege of Hazrat Bal in the early > '90s or >> for that matter the siege of Charar e-Sharif in '95 or >>> for that matter the Golden Temple in the '80s". >>> >>> In all three 'siege' mentioned, there were bands of armed >> terrorists holed up inside the three religious places. Some might choose > to >> call them 'freedom fighters' or "Mujahideen". >>> >>> Kshmendra >>> >>> >>> >>> --- On Sat, 7/5/08, S. Jabbar wrote: >>> >>> From: S. Jabbar >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among > 14 >> injured >>> To: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् " >> , "sarai list" >> >>> Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 1:07 PM >>> >>> I think you may want to ask why it was necessary to begin a victory > rally >>> from a religious place and how any of us would have reacted if Advani > were >>> to embark on another 'victory' rally from Somnath or Ayodhya. >> These >>> so-called victory rallies will only add fuel to the Jammu-Kashmir/ >>> Hindu-Muslim conflagration. >>> >>> Hazrat Bal and the Jama Masjid are not neutral sites and have been >>> politically charged ever since the 1930s when the Quit Kashmir > movement >> was >>> launched against the Maharaja. What must have started off as an > equally >>> 'peaceful' gathering turned violent and a man was killed. > That >> was >>> reason >>> enough for mass rioting. You may be aware of the siege of Hazrat Bal > in >> the >>> early '90s or for that matter the siege of Charar e-Sharif in > '95 >> or >>> for >>> that matter the Golden Temple in the '80s. >>> >>> The Hurriyat is not unaware that the state cannot risk a religious > site >>> becoming another site of contestation. It would try and control what > in >> all >>> likelihood would turn into yet another communally charged and violent >> event. >>> And yet it decided to go ahead. The stakes are high and I really >> don't >>> think anyone is above using religion to further their political ends. >>> --sj >>> >>> >>> On 7/5/08 12:43 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् > विज्" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> This is what happens when you prevent people from addressing >>>> peaceful >>> gatherings... >>> >>> >>> o o o o >>> >>> >>> Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among >>>> 14 injured >>> >>> Special Correspondent, 5 July >>>> 2008 >>> http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/05/stories/2008070559931300.htm >>> >>> The clash >>>> followed prayers to celebrate the "victory" in the land >> transfer >>>> issue >>> >>> >>> SRINAGAR: Senior Hurriyat Conference leader Shabir Shah was among >>>> 14 >>> people injured on Friday, following a scuffle between police and >>> supporters >>>> of separatist leaders after they offered prayers at the >>> Hazratbal shrine to >>>> celebrate the recent "victory" in the land >>> transfer issue. >>> >>> The call for >>>> "Hazratbal Chalo" was given by Syed Ali Geelani, head of >>> a faction of the >>>> Hurriyat Conference and supported by Mirwaiz Umar >>> Farooq, head of another. >>>> However, both were placed under house arrest >>> by the police. Mr. Shah and other >>>> leaders, however, reached Hazratbal >>> amid heavy deployment of police and >>>> paramilitary CRPF and offered >>> prayers besides addressing the people. >>> >>> Mr. Shah >>>> and Ashraf Sehrai, another senior leader denounced the >>> government for putting >>>> Mr. Geelani and Mr. Mirwaiz under house arrest. >>> >>> A protester hurls back a tear >>>> smoke shell towards the police. >>> >>> On their way back, Mr. Shabir Shah, Mr. >>>> Sehrai, Naeem Khan, Sheikh >>> Aziz, Shafi Reshi, Firdous Shah and others led a >>>> strong procession, >>> which was lathi-charged. >>> >>> Fourteen people, including Mr. >>>> Shabir Shah, were injured. He was >>> shifted to the S.K. Institute of Medical >>>> Sciences (SKIMS) for >>> treatment. >>> >>> Even as rumours spread that he was critical, >>>> Director SKIMS Abdul >>> Hamid Zargar told The Hindu that he was stable. Another >>>> procession >>> taken from Jamia Masjid and led by the head imam, was dispersed >>>> by >>> police with smoke shells. Many people were arrested. Another >>>> Hurriyat >>> leader Javed Mir was arrested when he tried to take out a >>>> procession >>> towards Hazratbal in Khanyar >>>> area. >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open >>>> discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To >>>> subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe >>> in >>>> the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >>> the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From tapasrayx at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 03:33:08 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 18:03:08 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: Amaranth Land Issue]] Message-ID: <4872929C.6010704@gmail.com> Radhika and all others, I have done it again. Many of the messages I thought I had posted over the last few days, in fact went only to Radhika. Naturally, when she responded, her messages came only to me, and did not reach the list. As a result, the part that was actually posted, must have seemed disjointed and confusing. I don't know if anyone will have the patience to read the conversation, but I am posting it anyway, as a sort of digest, starting from the point where I think the irregularity began, so that those who are interested, can see what it's all about. I have arranged the posts chronologically, last one first. That way you will see what exactly each post was responding to. I have tried to get it right this time at least, but apologies in advance if I have missed some post(s). And apologies also to members, as well as the list administrators, for including one or two messages that did go to the list. I had to do this to ensure some kind of continuity and logical connection between one post and the next. I don't know if this kind of thing happens to others, but it happens to me all the time. Could the administrators please see if anything can be done to prevent this? I mean, maybe changing the settings of the software will help. Tapas PS: The first message below - the one directly underneath this PS - is a continuation of the last message I sent to Radhika, which comes next, and so on. -------------------------------------------- Radhika, I sent off the last email to you in a bit of a hurry, and missed a couple of points. Good thing I thought of writing about those now - or I wouldn't have known that I've been messing up not just one or two but many of my messages (sending them to you and not the list), as a result of which you have been doing the same by hitting reply or reply all. I am to blame, totally. I agree with you that politicians should stay away from religion in their public lives. But this goes for all politicians and all religions. Do BJP and Shiv Sena politicians set an example? You have given two examples. Let me add one: many CPI(M) "leaders", at least among those who operate at the local level, are involved in community Pujas in West Bengal on a fairly large scale. As for harmony, no one in his or her senses will say that's not needed. But each community has to do its bit. Are you sure the Hindutva people are always reacting, never acting? I have already pointed out (in the last message, pasted below) one instance which seems to disprove that theory: you believe Muslims started asserting their religious identity through their dress after 1975. I suggested that they might have been reacting to the Parivar, whose attitude was clear in a 1971 quotation from the Organiser. We can probably go farther back, but later. About bringing criminals to book, is it only Muslims that get off the hook? No Hindu MLA, MP, or anybody with the right connections? Tapas -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Amaranth Land Issue] Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 13:10:13 -0400 From: Tapas Ray To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Radhika, I'm glad that you do not agree with those who want all Muslims to leave India. But others do, and neither you, nor I, probably have the ability to change that. Before getting to the rest of my response, let me tell you this: I have noticed that you have a degree of honesty and humanity. That is why I take the time to engage in this conversation with you. Saying this is not condescension on my part, but an expression of admiration. The fact that we have viewpoints that are mostly opposed to each other, does not diminish that admiration. Now back to our debate/discussion/conversation. As for Muslims showing their religious affiliation through dress, etc., I think everyone has that right with regard to her/his own religion, ethnicity, etc. The trend the world over, especially for minorities of various kinds, is to show their identities, and not be defensive about those. For instance, many Westerners of African origin choose African names for their children these days. This has not been the case always. I know an American of Serbian origin, who is as American as anyone can be, and was a Marine in the past. But he has not Americanised (meaning Anglicised) his first name, goes around the country playing Serbian music and makes CDs of that music. He is not at all shy of identifying himself as an ethnic Serb even though he abhors what has happened in the former Yugoslavia, and even to people who turn away from him because of that. Then there's a good friend of mine, who happens to be a lesbian. Like many homosexuals these days, she was not afraid to get "married" openly. It was a Christian wedding, not a civil marriage. I attended the wedding, along with lots of other people who are as heterosexual as one can get, and who enjoyed themselves with the great food that was laid out after the ceremony. In democracy these days, equality is not the same as uniformity. It embraces diversity. As for the timeline of Indian Muslims asserting their identity, even if your thesis about 1975 is true (I am not saying it necessarily is), note that the RSS was formed long, long before 1975. And as you will see below, Muslims were being told to accept Ram as their hero. About the sources of the two statements and a slogan I quoted in my other post (I suppose those are what you are referring to), I have not copied anything from any TV channel. These have been quoted in articles published in peer-reviewed academic journals. You can also find them in books. I would appreciate it if you, or anyone else, could email me a scan of the Organiser article that contains quotation no.1, or better still the whole issue, because their online archive seems to go back only to 2004. As for quotation no.3, I wanted to read the entire resolution, but can't access the RSS cite. Looks like a server problem. I'll try again later. Here are the sources - 1. ‘‘Let Muslims look upon Ram as their hero and the communal problems will be all over ..." (Organiser, June 20, 1971), quoted on p.12 of 'Khaki Shorts Saffron Flags' by Tapan Basu and others, Orient Longman. 2. ‘‘Babar ki santan - jao Pakistan ya kabristan’’ - a common slogan quoted on p.36 of 'Routine Violence: Nations, Fragments, Histories' by Gyanendra Pandey, Stanford University Press. 3. ‘‘Let Moslems understand that their real safety lies in the goodwill of the majority’’ (RSS resolution of March 18, 2002), quoted on p.227 of 'Religious Fundamentalism in the Contemporary World', edited by Santosh Saha, Lexington Books. Tapas radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > Tapas, > > please do not copy the words of celeb anchors of tv channels likes of Rajdeep and Barkha, I do not agree that muslims should vacate India, but they are expected to live in India in total harmony with the hindus in India, without showing off their religion up their sleeves , which started after 1975 war with Pakistan. The headgear they wear for prayers became public wear instead of use at prayer times at masjids, pathan dresses worn by cricketers became the identity of muslims of madrasas, and all political leaders started having iftar dawats for elections, which is blatent display of religion in politics, just as A Sonia wears thilak for vote gains, goes to hanuman mandir before rallies, it became clear the pulpits are used to mobilise votes for parties, this is the malignant growth in democracy where religion has no role in good governance. > > Muslims have to keep up their words of harmony in acts and deeds, and live like brothers in India, if not they are looked with suspicion that they have extra territorial loyalty to Islam, not the nation which takes care of them. It is as simple as that. This exactly makes those in "hinduthva " mode to revolt against all muslims good and bad, unfortunate as it is. > > As to laws of the land, with lax political will the criminals who use religion up their sleeve, it can be seen how law enforcing becomes exceedingly difficult as in the case of dawwood Ibrahim, son of police constable now Don, or a sohrabuddin an extortionist and murderer, as media always cries foul if a move is made to take any action against such blacksheep of the society, Afjal Guru and Geelani are the worst examples of failed prosecution as courts judge only on the evidence and materials produced before them, not on the failed prosecutions which play to the tune of their political masters, be it CBI or local police under the rule of parties. When we talk of prosecution and investigation and rule of laws, it should be remembered that the political will to be ethically and morally right has to be there to punish anyone who is violating the societal laws, is it there. ? > > If that were be so, many ministers that we see in cabinet should have been behind the bars for long. ! > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tapas Ray > Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008 6:02 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Amaranth Land Issue] > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > >> Radhika, >> >> So you agree that, according to the logic of Hindutva, they should >> leave India. The question then is, which of them should, and why. >> >> There are laws in India, designed to deal with every kind of >> crime. Shouldn't these be used to deal with the terrorists within India? >> That way they can be punished with jail terms or even the death >> penalty, depending on the gravity of what they have done. In Pakistan, they >> would probably be treated as heroes. >> >> About those Muslims who are not terrorists - you have already told >> me that many such people exist - why should anyone want them to leave? >> >> As for appeasement, please recall what I said earlier - that the >> "pseudos" appease the majority first, and only then the minorities. >> >> Tapas >> >> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Amaranth Land Issue] >>> Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 13:58:48 +0500 >>> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net >>> To: Tapas Ray >>> CC: sarai list >>> Tapas, >>> it is exactly, verbatim correct, but the truth is out of >> estimated 5 crore muslims, only 2.37 crores of muslims migrated, >> rest of the muslims, assured the national leaders that they would >> live harmoniously like brothers with their hindu brothers, did >> they keep their words. ? From Kashmir, to make it majority muslim >> domain, hindus were driven out , is it harmony and national >> leaders failed the citizens in governance and maintaining harmony >> by giving preferential treatments to castes and faiths, which is >> unacceptable in democratic rule where all have to treated and >> governed equally. >>> >>> Regards. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Tapas Ray >>> Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 9:49 pm >>>> PS: >>>> >>>> Radhika, >>>> >>>> Please see what you wrote yourself: >>>> >>>> radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: >>>> >>>> when nation was divided on the faith of being a nation for >>>> muslims, it is logical that muslims have to get relocated in the >>>> nation that they wanted. ? -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 12:07:30 -0400 From: Tapas Ray To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Radhika, > > Please tell me: have you heard or read these things anywhere? > > 1. ‘‘Let Muslims look upon Ram as their hero and the communal problems > will be all over’’. > > 2. ‘‘Jao Pakistan ya kabristan’’. > > 3. ‘‘Let Muslims understand that their real safety lies in the > goodwill of the majority’’. > > Another thing, which I should have clarified in my earlier post: When I used the word mother within quotation marks, I did not mean that I do > not consider India my country. I used the quote marks to indicate a > pun on the phrase mother India - in the commonly use way, which you > are referring to, and also as a person with a body, who gives birth to > the "monster child". > > I know that India is where I belong. I have returned to it in the > past. I am now abroad, and will return again. I feel more at home in > India than I do in any of the countries I have visited, and the > country in which I have lived for a few years, at different times - > even though I often feel as though I get more respect there, than I do > in India. > > Tapas -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 19:07:38 +0500 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net To: Tapas Ray > Tapas, > thank you for the response, your post which says the parivar asks muslims to vacate is false propaganda at its worst as no parivar or its members have ever said in so many words. For one, if a muslim is not loyal to the nation, but more loyal to Pakistan, stays in India, marries his progeny to pakistanis as spouse, then the question that naturally arises is to whom are they loyal, to nation of their stay or to the faith. If they are not loyal to the nation, the constitution itself has laws to treat with such kafirs, be it hindus or muslims, then laws of the land to deal with such traitors of the nation has a role to play. Even if a hindu, staying in India, that is this Bharath is traitor he is not rewarded for being traitor because he is hindu. > > As to constitution, it assures freedom and good governance for all, religion has no role in good governance, but political parties over the years, and its leaders have only relied on votes of communes such as yadavs, reddys, gowdas, and various caste denominations, even candidate is selected only after taking into account the votes of a particular caste equation irrespective of any party. Muslims who have traditionally been voting for Congress have now realised the importance of their votes, go with winning candidate, this with sure confidence can be seen as in karnataka elections where the Congress got marginalised and quite a few muslims have joined BJP, so much for communal gossip of Congress and its sponsored media and anchors.! > > The very game of reservations and quotas is a ploy to appease a few sections of caste equations, real beneficiaries even after years of such facility are in the miserable conditions as they were before. good governance should have addressed the issue of education for all, facilitation of vocation skills for alll, earning decent living for all citizens of the nation, and not government jobs based on certificates which with corrupt practise has become a costly affair. If free meal is given, none wants to earn his meal, and the best way is to inculcate the pride of being human, being with self respect, that is enough motivation to earn the meal in honourable earning.., with good basic education, good vocational skillsets, with opportunities for all to sustain themselves. > > Finally, as per the constitution all citizens have to be ruled with equity and just laws, but the issue gets subverted when it comes to civil laws, criminal laws as precedence are aplenty where religious leaders of "minority" communities do not accept the common and just laws. ? The end result of all this is open to see as each commune organises itself to barter and bargain for better slice of the cake with violent means, which is sad as in the case of naxals, gujjars and all neglected lot, who are seeing the light in organising themselves to have their say in governance, which clearly indicates of the bad and failed governance of the democratically elected leaders. ! > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tapas Ray > Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008 6:54 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > >> Radhika, >> >> Let me just point out that, by asking Muslims to leave India >> today, the Parivar is endorsing the two-nation Jinnah as opposed to >> the earlier Jinnah. We can go farther back to discuss what turned >> Jinnah into what he came to be. But all this is common knowledge. >> >> In any case, as you know very well, the Indian constitution does >> not recognise Hindus and Muslims as two nations. Doesn't the Parivar >> come dangerously close to being anti-national in that sense? And its >> open use of violence in this project - what would you like to call >> it? >> In saying this, I am not making a fetish of the constitution, or >> nationalism. One can be opposed to the constitution of one's own >> country on points of principle, and one should not support everything >> one's own country stands for, if some of these things are not >> consistent with one's sense of justice, morality, ethics, etc. >> >> But the Parivar sees itself - and tries very hard to make everyone >> else see it - as the only true nationalist organisation. To me, this >> is simply a way of confusing people. >> >> Best, >> >> Tapas >> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Amaranth Land Issue Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 15:23:58 +0500 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net To: Tapas Ray CC: sarai list > Dear Tapas, > > your write up made very interesting read, but alas, for me being hindu is way of life, in this way of life, there is place for all other ways of life, being an athiest is also okay in this way of life just as a ritualist life for some one, for many rituals are just rituals with out even knowing the reasons for the rituals, but even that is alright in hindu way of life. My mother is this part of continent, I rever it as my haven, without any quotes, I feel we can make it haven for all good, as laws of land are supreme if implemented properly, sternly without fear or favour. Any one in governance when he takes oath of governance without fear or favour time and again it is proved that in free India, sixty years of governance has been with fear and favours to the caste, faith and region, it is then not democratic rule of law. > > All of us have friends who may follow different ways of worship, lifestyles or beliefs but what matters is huamne approach to life, compassionate, considerate and responsive to all in our lives. Rule of laws which should not be, never be discriminative in sharing and caring every citizen irrespective of his color, faith, region and caste can make India heavenon earth. > > As to RSS, no doubt even that organisation is now seeing the winds of changes in societal life, chinthan baitaks of austere meetings are much comfortable in holding , ministers and every one are no more in the same platform in common seating arrangements, as some are becoming more equal than others in seating arrangements.! But basically, when nation was divided on the faith of being a nation for muslims, it is logical that muslims have to get relocated in the nation that they wanted. ? > > And just for the sake of arguments, hindus you say, are in majority, but the truth of the matter is hindu society after british rule is most divided society, thanks to the game of caste feel of the society. Only the movement of pride united the hindu society against the barbaric riots of the fanatics, acknowleding the fact that riots bring miseries to all even if they are muslims. ? > > As of today, it is the turn of united muslims who are now divided as shias, sunnis, and one can count another half a dozen denomination of the divisive sects. > > But for me basically, all the communes united in the nation, makes the nation a force to reckon with which none dare to violate even in their dreams. All sections of the society need to be united as threads of a stron rope that is our nation, just as all sections of thesociety shall be governed fairly without fear or favour to any segment. Only then we can say that we are successful in democratic life of live and let live. That comes only with lot more tolerence and patience. Shraddha and saburi, that is faith in ourselves to be good, patience in each of us to be tolerent of each other is the need of the hour to the nation. > > Regards. From elkamath at yahoo.com Tue Jul 8 08:44:45 2008 From: elkamath at yahoo.com (lalitha kamath) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 20:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Human Rights under State of Emergency Monitoring and Protection Coalition Statement Message-ID: <596091.90137.qm@web53607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Human Rights under State of Emergency Monitoring and Protection Coalition STATEMENT July 6, 2008 Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia The history of humankind has demonstrated time and time again that the likelihood of serious human rights violations is increased during a state of emergency. In light of this, over 20 human rights NGOs formed a coalition and pulled their resources to monitor human rights violations, prevent further violence and inform the public during the 4 day state of emergency that was announced on the night of July 1, 2008 following the election protests that took place in Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia. Over 100 people including lawyers, defense attorneys, psychologists, social workers, students and other human rights activists came together on a voluntary basis and conducted monitoring and fact-finding activities on the situation of the 718 detainees arrested during the state of emergency. At the same time, coalition members have also begun to provide legal counseling, relevant information and other services to the detainees and their families. Within the framework of this monitoring, the coalition members visited the detention sites and hospitals, and met with relevant authorities, the arrested, the injured and their family members. Information collected through interviews, supported by audio and visual documentation, demonstrates that the following violations of human rights and international conventions, to which Mongolia is a signatory, were committed in the process of the organization and implementation of the President's Decree on Announcing the State of Emergency: * Complete and timely measures were not taken to inform citizens who were unable to receive information through radio and television about the announcement of the state of emergency * The police and army corps were not provided with guidelines on how to perform the arrests in compliance with relevant laws and regulations * In violation of the law, the police and army corps performed a mass arrest, using excessive force, severely beating and injuring people * The detainees were kept in conditions that do not satisfy minimum standards. In particular: * 30-50 people were kept in a small room of about 20 square meters, without sufficient air, people were also kept en masse in a detention center garage * Children and women were kept with adult men * The detention rooms did not satisfy minimum health and hygiene standards * The detainees were not allowed access to toilet facilities, which resulted in damage to their health * The detainees were not provided with necessary nutrition. For example, in some detention sites, people were not given food or water for a whole day while in other sites they were given a small piece of cookie with tap water on the first day and chloramine-tainted tea on the second day. * People who required medical attention were not provided with necessary assistance. * During the mass arrests, the Law on Criminal Procedure was seriously violated. In particular: * The detainees were not informed of their rights or the reason for their arrest * The families were not immediately notified about the arrests * During the arrests and the interrogations, the police did not inform citizens of their basic rights such as the right to have a lawyer present and the right not to testify against oneself * People with disabilities and children were interrogated without the presence of a parent, legal guardian, representative or lawyer * The detainees were forced to give and sign statements under torture and duress * Television footage is being used as stand-alone evidence and repeatedly broadcast on the Mongolian National Public Television and Radio. As a result of the above violations, the detainees and their family members and friends have suffered severe psychological damage over and above significant material losses. Even after 5 days have passed since the initial arrests, there are over 70 people who have not been located and their family and friends are still looking for them. Given these serious and numerous violations of international human rights laws such as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, International Pact on Civil and Political Rights, Rome Statute on the International Criminal Court, and the International Convention against Torture and Inhuman Treatment, the Constitution of Mongolia and the Law of Mongolia on Criminal Procedure, lead us to conclude that the on-going interrogation process is illegal. Basic human rights principles, which dictate that no one may be subjected to torture, inhuman treatment, humiliation and cruel punishment, must be strictly followed at all times. Violation of these principles can not be justified under any circumstances. Therefore, we demand that egregious violations of human rights and freedoms be stopped immediately. The temporary closure of all broadcast media with the exception of the Mongolian National Public Radio and Television resulted in a dire lack of objective and timely information. In the context of an already distressed and anxious public, this unbalanced and one-sided information further increased people's fears and severely undermined their trust in state protection. These events have clearly demonstrated the fragility of Mongolia's democratic institutions and the weaknesses of Mongolia's national human rights protection mechanisms. For these reasons we call on the government, political parties, citizens and civil society organizations to make a concerted effort to resolve the current situation peacefully, based on human rights, to restore and protect the rights of our citizens who have been affected by the mass arrests, and to strengthen human rights guarantees in Mongolia. It is of vital importance that we work together to protect and ensure fundamental human rights in Mongolia. Center for Human Rights and Development Law and Human Rights Center National Center against Violence Open Society Forum Globe International Philanthropy for Development Center Mongolian Women's Fund Step by Step NGO "Let's Develop" Club Amnesty International Citizen D.Lamjav Mongolian Women's Federation Mongolian Men's Association "Mongolian Family" Psychotherapy Association National Federation of Disabled Citizens' Unions ECPAT National Network "Child Protection" Coalition Association for Family Wellbeing Center for Citizens' Alliance Liberty Center Asian Focal Point for the International Civil Society Forum for Democracy PLEASE NOTE: If you would like to be taken off this emailing list please send an email to informationmongolia at yahoo.com with the word REMOVE in the subject. If you have been fowarded this email and would like to be put on this list please send an email to informationmongolia at yahoo.com with the words ADD ME in the subject. From logos.theword at gmail.com Sun Jul 6 20:34:02 2008 From: logos.theword at gmail.com (Logos Theatre) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 20:34:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] not reading from a chair - a performance cycle In-Reply-To: <33bc2ee60807060801h6dc4abb7i5797997cc8c36fa9@mail.gmail.com> References: <33bc2ee60807060801h6dc4abb7i5797997cc8c36fa9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33bc2ee60807060804t5831f844q62494c973f5af920@mail.gmail.com> the SpeechMagic initiative, an effort of Logos Theatre, presents 'not reading from a chair', a performance cycle comprising Spoken Word, movement, sound and image, at Maya Art Gallery, # 59, Nandidurga Road (near the Airtel office) between July 10th and 19th. the performers are: SIKAN DEROUGE, Teresa Prima and theStillDancer. The schedule of performances is as follows: 10/07 - Dylan Thomas' Sullen Art 11/07 - The Remembrance Of Things Seen 13/07 - Drowning In Eliot's City (Prufrock, Preludes, Rhapsody, Portrait Of A Lady) 15/07 - Yeats' Terrible Beauty 16/07 - Along The Pathways Of The World (seeking Banalata Sen – in English and Bangla) 17/07 - All Poetry Is Memory (times, places and voices) 18/07 - Ruposhi Bangla ( Jibanananda speaks – in Bangla) 19/07 - Meghmuluke Jhhapsha Raate (Abol Tabol – in Bangla) all performances start at 8:00 PM, limited to 20 people. There will be an additional show on the 11th and 16th at 6:30 PM. Season passes are available. Entry: 200/- (100/- for students with valid ID) Contact: 9880966313/ logos.theword at gmail.com -- Logos Theatre In the beginning was the word No. 126, 3rd Main Road, Jayamahal Extension, Bangalore 560046 -------------------------------------------------------- If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all. Since no man has aught of what he leaves, what is't to leave betimes? Let be. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 10:35:06 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:35:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amarnath row reignites Azadi sentiments In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807070944m9ea0eb7g5b869f5bcb9ca483@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030803x4bec38cer3b90a7001304f956@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807031101uc92396eoe35ae3e201ae031c@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70807040733k378dced3w9c4fff488ff89595@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70807050159p7c8cf91du994eac40442e6b6f@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807070944m9ea0eb7g5b869f5bcb9ca483@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807072205s361746f0i831f865b5fd35337@mail.gmail.com> Shivam , Pls verify your facts again . And if you want i may eductae you more on Panun Kashmir and how it not only for Pandits but for free flow of Indian constitution in a would be union territory. Pawan On 7/7/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Inder, > Pawan is not interested in grass but blood. He seems to suggest that > Kashmir's grass is soaked exclusively with Hindu blood, and the > Muslims are happily enoying their picnic on that grass, and the grass > has no Muslim blood. In fact Pawan went to Kashmir, the part which > Panun Kashmir wants as Pandit zone, and did DNA tests on the grass and > has successfully established that Muslim blood never touched it. > best > shivam > > On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 2:29 PM, inder salim wrote: > > dear pawan ji > > > > it looks u are interested in the GRASS only > > > > i too once had a deep facination of the grass, but time move and i see > > there are other things too which can intoxicate > > > > love > > > > On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 8:03 PM, inder salim > wrote: > >> now POLITICALLY, i see, THERE IS A DEEP MISTRUST BETWEEN HINDUS AND > >> MUSLIMS OF JAMMU AND KASHMIR AND YET THERE IS SO MUCH OF TRADE, > >> FRIENDSHIP AND HARMONEY AT THE GRASS ROOT LEVEL...but politics seems > >> to win in the ends, sadly.... > >> > >> now since this sharp divide has come to the fore, i find this an > >> opportunity to doubt the existence of the God.... i dont personally > >> want a debate on that.... but we can atleast behaves like SCEPTICS... > >> that might perhaps give us a chance to realize the minds of saints > >> poets and wise people in the past and in the present...if that had not > >> happened they too might not have been there..... even prophets and > >> gods have come to to earth because they had the courage to doubt ... > >> > >> i guess it is this doubt that gives us the idea of universal love.... > >> strong belief in this or that might finally harm our own undertanding > >> of the self... > >> > >> choice is ours > >> > >> with love > >> inder salim > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 11:31 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > >>> And the Jammu news doesnt appeal to the born slaves. > >>> > >>> On 7/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Dear Shivam, > >>>> > >>>> Thank you for your reports from the valley. They help us get a > >>>> clearer image of the situation and what people are thinking and > saying. > >>>> > >>>> best > >>>> > >>>> Shuddha > >>>> On 03-Jul-08, at 8:33 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > [As published this morning] > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > Amarnath row reignites azadi sentiment > >>>> > > >>>> > Shivam Vij / Srinagar > >>>> > Sakaal Times / 3 July > >>>> > http://epaper.sakaaltimes.com > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > The writing on the wall is clear: The Kashmiri demand for > independence > >>>> > from India is not over yet. Separatist leaders and commoners alike > >>>> > have hailed the withdrawal of the land transfer order as the victory > >>>> > of the Kashmiri people and called to revitalise the azadi movement. > >>>> > > >>>> > This is clearly a turning point in the 20-year-old militant > struggle. > >>>> > There is also talk of boycotting the coming assembly polls and > >>>> > reunification of the two factions of the Hurriyat Conference. The > mood > >>>> > was reflected in every local daily's frontpage headlines. PEOPLE > WIN, > >>>> > said Greater Kashmir. Kashmir Savours Victory, said the Kashmir > >>>> > Observer. Kashmir win, said Amroze Kashmir. VICTORY! said Etalaat. > >>>> > People win, Order revoked, said Kashmir Monitor. > >>>> > > >>>> > The emphasis that it was a people's agitation rather than one of > >>>> > leaders is shared by everyone. The sentiment is shared by every taxi > >>>> > driver, shopkeeper, houseboat-owner, journalist — too widespread > >>>> > to be > >>>> > brushed away as anybody's political gimmick. The agitation was lead > by > >>>> > the ACALT committee which had, apart from Hurriyat leaders, > apolitical > >>>> > religious leaders, representatives from trade and transporters' > >>>> > organisation's, the Kashmir Chambers of Commerce and the Bar > Council. > >>>> > > >>>> > Vehement support was given by the Valley's Sikhs and most Kashmiri > >>>> > Pandit organisations as well. The biggest winner is Hurriyat leader > >>>> > Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who was the first to begin mobilising the > >>>> > public with a signature campaign. In a press conference on > Wednesday, > >>>> > he emphasised: "This punctures New Delhi's theory that our movement > is > >>>> > standing on Pakistani support," he said, adding, "did you see a > single > >>>> > agitator using violence?" "The movement lives on in the hearts and > >>>> > minds of the people," he told Sakaal Times. > >>>> > > >>>> > The relatively smooth rule of the PDP-Congress coalition and the > >>>> > decline in militancy had led observers to believe that people's > >>>> > participation in polls could increase. "Nobody will vote now," said > >>>> > Etalaat editor Zahiruddin. In fact NC's Omar Abdullah is believed to > >>>> > have said as much to the NSA in his meeting with him in Delhi. > >>>> > > >>>> > "Mainstream politicians in the Valley who believed the movement was > on > >>>> > its deathbed have got a rude jolt," he said. "This is very > unpleasant > >>>> > for the Indian government and intelligence agencies who were already > >>>> > talking of a postconflict scenario," says human rights activist > Parvez > >>>> > Imroz. > >>>> > _________________________________________ > >>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> > subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> > >>>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS > >>>> Raqs Media Collective > >>>> shuddha at sarai.net > >>>> www.sarai.net > >>>> www.raqsmediacollective.net > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _________________________________________ > >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 11:16:53 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 11:16:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amarnath row reignites Azadi sentiments In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70807072205s361746f0i831f865b5fd35337@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030803x4bec38cer3b90a7001304f956@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807031101uc92396eoe35ae3e201ae031c@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70807040733k378dced3w9c4fff488ff89595@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70807050159p7c8cf91du994eac40442e6b6f@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807070944m9ea0eb7g5b869f5bcb9ca483@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807072205s361746f0i831f865b5fd35337@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690807072246g41e55fadk6562a1851cafb0ae@mail.gmail.com> Shivam, Typical Frustrated Case in respect to knowledge on Kashmir. Study: Panun Kashmir... Enjoy. Aditya On 7/8/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Shivam , > > Pls verify your facts again . And if you want i may eductae you more on > Panun Kashmir and how it not only for Pandits but for free flow of Indian > constitution in a would be union territory. > > Pawan > > > On 7/7/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > > > Inder, > > Pawan is not interested in grass but blood. He seems to suggest that > > Kashmir's grass is soaked exclusively with Hindu blood, and the > > Muslims are happily enoying their picnic on that grass, and the grass > > has no Muslim blood. In fact Pawan went to Kashmir, the part which > > Panun Kashmir wants as Pandit zone, and did DNA tests on the grass and > > has successfully established that Muslim blood never touched it. > > best > > shivam > > > > On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 2:29 PM, inder salim > wrote: > > > dear pawan ji > > > > > > it looks u are interested in the GRASS only > > > > > > i too once had a deep facination of the grass, but time move and i see > > > there are other things too which can intoxicate > > > > > > love > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 8:03 PM, inder salim > > wrote: > > >> now POLITICALLY, i see, THERE IS A DEEP MISTRUST BETWEEN HINDUS AND > > >> MUSLIMS OF JAMMU AND KASHMIR AND YET THERE IS SO MUCH OF TRADE, > > >> FRIENDSHIP AND HARMONEY AT THE GRASS ROOT LEVEL...but politics seems > > >> to win in the ends, sadly.... > > >> > > >> now since this sharp divide has come to the fore, i find this an > > >> opportunity to doubt the existence of the God.... i dont personally > > >> want a debate on that.... but we can atleast behaves like SCEPTICS... > > >> that might perhaps give us a chance to realize the minds of saints > > >> poets and wise people in the past and in the present...if that had not > > >> happened they too might not have been there..... even prophets and > > >> gods have come to to earth because they had the courage to doubt ... > > >> > > >> i guess it is this doubt that gives us the idea of universal love.... > > >> strong belief in this or that might finally harm our own undertanding > > >> of the self... > > >> > > >> choice is ours > > >> > > >> with love > > >> inder salim > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 11:31 PM, Pawan Durani > > > wrote: > > >>> And the Jammu news doesnt appeal to the born slaves. > > >>> > > >>> On 7/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> Dear Shivam, > > >>>> > > >>>> Thank you for your reports from the valley. They help us get a > > >>>> clearer image of the situation and what people are thinking and > > saying. > > >>>> > > >>>> best > > >>>> > > >>>> Shuddha > > >>>> On 03-Jul-08, at 8:33 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> > [As published this morning] > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > Amarnath row reignites azadi sentiment > > >>>> > > > >>>> > Shivam Vij / Srinagar > > >>>> > Sakaal Times / 3 July > > >>>> > http://epaper.sakaaltimes.com > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > The writing on the wall is clear: The Kashmiri demand for > > independence > > >>>> > from India is not over yet. Separatist leaders and commoners alike > > >>>> > have hailed the withdrawal of the land transfer order as the > victory > > >>>> > of the Kashmiri people and called to revitalise the azadi > movement. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > This is clearly a turning point in the 20-year-old militant > > struggle. > > >>>> > There is also talk of boycotting the coming assembly polls and > > >>>> > reunification of the two factions of the Hurriyat Conference. The > > mood > > >>>> > was reflected in every local daily's frontpage headlines. PEOPLE > > WIN, > > >>>> > said Greater Kashmir. Kashmir Savours Victory, said the Kashmir > > >>>> > Observer. Kashmir win, said Amroze Kashmir. VICTORY! said Etalaat. > > >>>> > People win, Order revoked, said Kashmir Monitor. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > The emphasis that it was a people's agitation rather than one of > > >>>> > leaders is shared by everyone. The sentiment is shared by every > taxi > > >>>> > driver, shopkeeper, houseboat-owner, journalist — too widespread > > >>>> > to be > > >>>> > brushed away as anybody's political gimmick. The agitation was > lead > > by > > >>>> > the ACALT committee which had, apart from Hurriyat leaders, > > apolitical > > >>>> > religious leaders, representatives from trade and transporters' > > >>>> > organisation's, the Kashmir Chambers of Commerce and the Bar > > Council. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > Vehement support was given by the Valley's Sikhs and most Kashmiri > > >>>> > Pandit organisations as well. The biggest winner is Hurriyat > leader > > >>>> > Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who was the first to begin mobilising the > > >>>> > public with a signature campaign. In a press conference on > > Wednesday, > > >>>> > he emphasised: "This punctures New Delhi's theory that our > movement > > is > > >>>> > standing on Pakistani support," he said, adding, "did you see a > > single > > >>>> > agitator using violence?" "The movement lives on in the hearts and > > >>>> > minds of the people," he told Sakaal Times. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > The relatively smooth rule of the PDP-Congress coalition and the > > >>>> > decline in militancy had led observers to believe that people's > > >>>> > participation in polls could increase. "Nobody will vote now," > said > > >>>> > Etalaat editor Zahiruddin. In fact NC's Omar Abdullah is believed > to > > >>>> > have said as much to the NSA in his meeting with him in Delhi. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > "Mainstream politicians in the Valley who believed the movement > was > > on > > >>>> > its deathbed have got a rude jolt," he said. "This is very > > unpleasant > > >>>> > for the Indian government and intelligence agencies who were > already > > >>>> > talking of a postconflict scenario," says human rights activist > > Parvez > > >>>> > Imroz. > > >>>> > _________________________________________ > > >>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>>> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>>> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >>>> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >>>> > > >>>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > >>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > >>>> Raqs Media Collective > > >>>> shuddha at sarai.net > > >>>> www.sarai.net > > >>>> www.raqsmediacollective.net > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> _________________________________________ > > >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>>> Critiques & Collaborations > > >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > > >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >>> _________________________________________ > > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> > > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Tue Jul 8 13:57:08 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 13:27:08 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] The Talibanisation of India In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807070925l54ae01b9q728f989b0126c552@mail.gmail.com> References: <"635 3c690802220402n297cfab6jafb8b76cb8982251"@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807070922q532bbc92i6baa06d079959538@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807070925l54ae01b9q728f989b0126c552@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Shivam, as you are trying to bring in the game of dividing the pandits, you may also get some stability for your spin with this reported issue in all the newspapers, in brief, it is about the masjid, where four muslims were hacked to death by 12 muslims regarding the right to pray, about collections of masjid and management of funds of masjid, in bangalore. Those arrested include a Maulavi, a azan maker and devout muslims, so one can safely assume that greed in humans transcends the faiths. ? So your post about Ganesh mandir Prabhandak committee of pandits has also got to be seen in this perspective, so that your spin of driving wedge in kashmiris is seen more clearly as a Journalist on spin machanism.! Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् Date: Monday, July 7, 2008 9:56 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Talibanisation of India To: Aditya Raj Kaul Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Perhaps Pandit groups like RIK might also want to protest against > fellow Pandits, members of the Ganesh Mandir Prabandhak Committee, for > not being interested in the upkeep of this important temple. > > best > shivam > > o o o > > Temple divides Pandits > OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT > > Srinagar, June 10: The renovation of a 700-year-old Ganesh temple has > become the cause of a rift between Kashmiri Pandits who migrated from > the Valley and those who stayed back. > > The temple in the old city of Srinagar has suffered damage because of > inclement weather. Militants vandalised the temple in 1992. > > The Kashmir Pandit Sangharsh Samiti, which represents over 4,000 > people who stayed back, wants to renovate the shrine. Sanjay Tickoo, > its president, said: "We want to restore it to its pristine glory." > > The Samiti, he said, had approached the former office-bearers — all > are in Jammu — to discuss the renovation plans. "We had approached > them to start the renovation but they refused to do so, saying the > situation is not conducive in Kashmir," he said. > > The Samiti also alleged that the erstwhile Ganesh Mandir Prabandhak > Committee had Rs 21 lakh of temple funds, which it was reluctant to > give. > > > > > On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 9:52 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > wrote: > >> Pandits allege that some in the Dharmarth Trust management want > to sell off > >> the property of the temple, valued at Rs 300 crore. > > > > Sadly, things haven't moved forward on this. Perhaps Kashmiri Pandit > > groups should protest against fellow Kashmiri Pandits who are > selling> off temple properties. > > > > best > > shivam > > > > On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 5:32 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > wrote: > >> Hope something is done to address this issue. > >> > >> - Aditya Raj Kaul > >> Campaign Blog - www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > >> > >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >> From: Nishant Dudha > >> Date: Feb 22, 2008 3:31 PM > >> Subject: Fwd: The Talibanisation of India > >> > >> > >> > >> Regret that this document is lengthy. However, it contains some > important>> facts and figures which should be available to each > and every thinking > >> Indian irrespective of their religion to let them know what a > scourge>> Minortyism is and the potential it has for destroying > our social fabric > >> and fuelling the growth of Hindu Fanaticism. > >> > >> If you do not know me well enough or have not received any > mails from me in > >> a long time, the reason why this comes your way is because I > reckon, this > >> impacts us all. > >> > >> Cheers! > >> Nishant > >> > >> *Copies of this memo have been forwarded to the President and > Prime Minister > >> of India as also to the members of the Indian Parliament for their > >> information and necessary action.* > >> > >> > >> > >> *Letter to Shri Ghulam Nabi Azad, Chief Minister, Jammu & > Kashmir State* > >> > >> > >> > >> *THE HINDU JAGRAN FORUM-USA* > >> > >> 3145 Gilbert Avenue, Roseburg, OR (USA) 97470 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Subject: *Massive destruction of temples in J&K amounts to > state sponsored > >> Talibanization of the state: These religious structures must > be protected > >> against the predatory & illegal Sales, demolition and Vandalism > and a Waqf > >> like Hindu Board be formed for their upkeep and governance.* > >> > >> > >> > >> Hon'ble Chief Minister Azad, > >> > >> > >> > >> Through this memo we would like to express our deep > >> disappointment, indignation and out right condemnation on > behalf of a > >> billion members strong worldwide Hindu fraternity about the self > >> induced "*tactical > >> failure*" of the successive J&K governments in protecting the Hindu > >> community of Kashmir. Encouraged by the anti-secular, anti- > minority and > >> Mogul like discriminative policies of the state government. Now > these>> Islamists, > >> who drove the non-Muslims out of the Kashmir region, have > embarked upon the > >> illegal sale of Hindu temples and their properties. > >> > >> > >> > >> All these criminal activities by the Islamists represent the > >> extension of their foreign inspired "*civilizational* *war*" > undertaken to > >> remove all traces of the historical Hindu past in the vale of > Kashmir.>> Massive protests by the remaining less than 5,000 > Kashmiri Pandits in the > >> valley against criminally altering the socio-cultural > complexion of Kashmir > >> has been of no avail. On the contrary these extremely > vulnerable non-Muslim > >> Kashmiris have been exposed to serious threats by a very > powerful "*Islamic > >> Land Mafia*" that if they do not stop protesting they would > face dire > >> consequences like the rest of the exiled Pandit community. > >> > >> > >> > >> We have been given to understand that powerful > interests in the > >> Muslim dominated State Legislature including the *Islamic Land > Mafia*,>> scuttled the legislation that was supposed to stop the > illegal sale and/or > >> destruction of Hindu religious structures. Despite the state > >> government's "*verbal > >> assurances*" to protect temples & their properties nothing has > been done to > >> save them. Even the promise to bring in legislation during the > recent>> assembly session to prevent sale of such properties was > not fulfilled and > >> the legislature was allowed to adjourn sine die without the > introduction of > >> the promised bill (attachment A). Obviously the assurance by > the state > >> authorities has simply proved to be yet another tactic for > buying time and > >> doing nothing. > >> > >> > >> > >> * 1) Govt. re-built Cherar-e-Shareef why not Hindu > temples?*>> > >> Chief Minister Azad when the Pakistani and indigenous > Islamic>> terrorists burnt and destroyed the holy shrine at Cherar- > e-Shareef > >> responding to the public outcry the Indian as well as Kashmir > governments>> agreed to rebuild the shrine. Thereupon a team of > engineering specialists > >> was detailed to visit some of the major Islamic states in > Central Asian > >> region for examining their mosques in an attempt to select one > of the best > >> of them as a model for building the new shrine at Cherar-e- > Shareef. In the > >> final analysis that is exactly what was done. Based on this > experience the > >> question that arises now is: if the officials could go to that > extent for > >> pleasing and or appeasing the Muslim community why can't they > re-build Hindu > >> temples destroyed in the wake of ethnic cleansing unleashed by > the local and > >> foreign Jihadists? > >> > >> > >> > >> * 2) Govt. Talibanizing everything in Kashmir:* > >> > >> The former J&K Chief Minister Mufti Mohammad > Sayeed's public > >> declaration describing Hari Parbat as *'Koh-i-Maran'* in 2005 > could only be > >> termed as a shot in the arm of '*talibanization*' by the coalition > >> government. It is believed that the misguided Congress party > has been > >> extending its tacit and full support to the People's > Democratic Party (of > >> Mehbooba Mufti) – the political outfit that has been > aggressively engaged in > >> systematically destroying the symbols of historical importance, > cultural>> pluralism and talibanizing everything in Kashmir," > (attachment B). > >> > >> > >> > >> * 3) Hindu temples being destroyed on at an > unprecedented Scale:* > >> > >> The process of desecration, loot, vandalizing and > destruction of > >> temples has continued under the anti-Hindu Islamic rule through > generations>> with intent to wipe out all traces of religious and > cultural symbols of > >> Hindus. These targets besides the temples included libraries, > universities>> and ashrams. After India achieved freedom and > Kashmir acceded to the Union > >> of India in 1947 the destruction and desecration of temples > under the new > >> Islamic regimes wearing secular turbans received added impetus and > >> acceleration. Temple lands, cremation grounds, etc. of Hindus > were usurped > >> and utilized for expansion of the Islamic populace. The famous > Bhairavnath>> temple of Chattabal, Srinagar was locked up by the > police. The judicial case > >> pending in court concerning this temple was never allowed to be > decided.>> Precious lands around Hari Parbat hill, Durganag temple > of Srinagar and > >> lands at several Hindu places of worship in the Valley were > slowly and > >> steadily turned into lands under occupation of the Muslim trusts > >> (Maqboozai-Ahali-Islam). > >> > >> > >> > >> In 1967, Shivala temple, Chotta Nazar, Srinagar was > desecrated.>> Again in 1984 Shri Hanuman temple at Hari Singh High > Street was damaged and > >> in the same year Arya Samaj temple of Wazir Bagh, Srinagar was > burnt down. > >> In view of the Islamic fundamentalist conspiracy against Hindus > in general > >> and unqualified support for their plans from across the border, > the law and > >> order situation in the Valley since 1986 deteriorated > progressively and > >> temple desecration became the order of the day. Here are some > of the glaring > >> examples that defy and shred into a million pieces the tall > claims made by > >> the Muslim leaders of Kashmir about their dedication and > adherence to > >> nationalism, multiculturalism, secularism, Kashmiriyat and > religious>> freedom: > >> > >> > >> > >> A) In February 1986 some 39 temples were destroyed in > Anantnag,>> Srinagar, Budgam, Kupwara and Baramula districts > (attachment C). > >> > >> > >> > >> B) From 1987 to 1990 at least fifteen temples were > destroyed>> (attachment C). > >> > >> > >> > >> * C) Temples desecrated and damaged in Kashmir from > 1990 to > >> December 1992* (attachment C) > >> > >> 1. DASHNAMI AKHARA, SRINAGAR > >> 2. GANPATYAR TEMPLE > >> 3. RAGHUNATH MANDIR, SRINAGAR > >> 4. SHIVA TEMPLE, JAWAHAR NAGAR, SRINAGAR > >> 5. HANUMAN MANDIR, SRINAGAR > >> 6. SHIVA TEMPLE, BARBAR SHAH, SRINAGAR > >> 7. JAI DEVI TEMPLE, BIJBEHARA > >> 8. VIJESHWAR TEMPLE, BIJBEHARA > >> 9. SHIVA MANDIR, BIJBEHARA > >> 10. RAGHUNATH TEMPLE, ANANTNAG > >> 11. GAUTAM NAG TEMPLE, ANANTNAG > >> 12. THREE TEMPLES OF LUKHBHAVAN, LARKIPURA, ANANTNAG > >> 13. WANPOH MANDIR, ANANTNAG > >> 14. SHAILPUTRI TEMPLE, BARAMULLA > >> 15. DAYALGAM MANDIR, ANANTNAG > >> 16. BHAIRAVANATH MANDIR, BARAMULLA > >> 17. BHAIRAVANATH MANDIR, SOPORE > >> 18. RUPABHAVANI MANDIR, VASAKURA > >> 19. KHIRBHAVANI MANDIR, GANDERBAL > >> 20. SHIVA TEMPLE, GANDERBAL > >> 21. MATTAN TEMPLE, ANANTNAG > >> > >> > >> > >> D) The *Minister of State for Home Affairs, Shri M.M. > Jacob>> disclosed in the Lok Sabha on 12-3-1993 that 38 Hindu > places of worship were > >> damaged in J&K state, 13 in 1989, nine in 1990 and 16 in 1991.* > >> > >> > >> > >> E) There are reports of further destruction of some 39 > temples in > >> Kashmir after December 6, 1992 for which FIR were filed > (attachment C). > >> Please note that FIRs on all destruction cases were not filed > with the > >> authorities in view of the complicity of the administration and > warnings of > >> retaliation against the complainants by the Islamic terrorists. > >> > >> > >> > >> F) According to local eye witnesses accounts there > were additional > >> 38 temples that were vandalized after December 6, 1992 > (attachment C) > >> > >> > >> > >> These examples represent only a fraction of the > systematic mass > >> destruction of temples in J&K after independence of India when > the Islamists > >> assumed the total and unfettered control of the state. > >> > >> > >> > >> *4) The Indian Parliament adopted a law in 1991 > specifically>> requiring that* – "the status of religious places, > as on August 15, 1947 > >> shall be retained". This pre-emptive measure was taken by the > national>> legislature anticipating possible dishonorable designs > of trouble makers and > >> anti- national elements in various administrations. A faithful > >> implementation of these laws will require assuring the security and > >> restoration of the community based management of Hindu temples > and their > >> estates. > >> > >> > >> > >> Sayeed had on June 20 described Hari Parbat as *'Koh-i- > Maran'* and > >> a ministerial colleague of his had called Shankaracharya Hill > *'Sulaiman>> Teng'*. Have these short sighted Jihadis ever > imagined as to what might > >> happen if the Indian nation, which is more than 83% Hindu, was > to enforce > >> similar communal, vindictive and religious based punitive > policies in India > >> and start undoing what the successive tyrannical Islamic > regimes have done > >> to the Hindu nation? From that stand point aren't these > fundamentalist,>> irresponsible street politicians playing with > the lives and welfare of the > >> 140 million Muslims of India? > >> > >> > >> > >> * 5) Mr. Chief Minister, government's indifference > towards the > >> temple security and their functioning has been termed as its > support to > >> persecution of Hindus and denial of their freedom of religion:* > Govt. must > >> realize that the temples and their endowments have been built > over the > >> centuries by our forefathers and therefore, it is the community > which is > >> their real owner and which must have the final say in the > management and > >> utilization of temple resources. > >> > >> > >> > >> Under the present circumstances it is obligatory upon > the Govt. as > >> envisaged by the above referred Act passed by the Indian > Parliament to > >> maintain the integrity of religious entities as it stood in > 1947. Any > >> deviation from that will clearly be violation of the national > law and the > >> will unambiguously expressed by the Indian Parliament. > Therefore, it is > >> incumbent upon the Govt. to restore all the destroyed, > vandalized, looted > >> and desecrated temples and their properties to their glory as > it existed in > >> 1947 and hand them over to the Hindu community. Any thing less > than that > >> will be unacceptable. > >> > >> > >> > >> * 6) Formation of a Waqf like autonomous Hindu Board > for temples > >> governance under the Hindu community's guidance:* Mr. Chief > Minister, we > >> strongly believe that for social issues, religious affairs, > community>> services and temple administration there must be a > representative and an > >> autonomous Hindu Board with full jurisdiction over temple > governance and > >> management. Accordingly we suggest that the representatives of > shrines,>> temples, Hindu community and state and national > religious leaders, be > >> motivated to convene an assembly where they could be asked to > take charge of > >> clearly defining legal and religious framework for the > community governance > >> of temples and other religious places in the state. Since the > universal>> right of freedom to manage religious places is > available to the Muslim > >> community which constitutes the majority in your state, there > is absolutely > >> no justification to deny it to Hindus? > >> > >> > >> > >> * 7) The Govt. must make room for community's vital > role in the > >> interim temple management through Hindu Advisory Councils:* > Such Councils > >> could play a role in oversight and decision making process of > the endowments > >> department and temple Trusts, where Councils elected or > nominated by the > >> Community and state and national religious leaders could > shoulder these > >> responsibilities. Additionally these Councils could also stop > desecration>> and decimation of the religious infrastructure by > bringing these issues to > >> the notice of the Govt. and the public, and till an autonomous > Board is > >> constituted for taking over the charge, like the Waqf Board. > >> > >> > >> > >> * 8) Hindus as a minority community in J&K need and > must get > >> special protection:* In view of the internationally recognized > ethnic>> cleansing and genocide of Hindus in Kashmir it would have > been most > >> desirable if the J&K Govt. had brought into play a policy of > special>> protection as well as financial support to the Hindus > who are in a minority > >> - on the same basis as Muslims are allowed in the rest of > India. We regret > >> to say that Hindus have been effectively cleansed out of the > Kashmir Valley, > >> disenfranchised and now the focus seems to be on cleansing them > out of Jammu > >> as well. The calculated lack of action by the state in this > regard seems to > >> effectively contribute to the realization of the Jihadists > objectives of the > >> talibanization of the state. > >> > >> > >> > >> * 9) Chief Minister Azad, for a starter may we request > your urgent > >> attention for protecting Hindu temples and Hindu community > properties* from > >> illegal sales and encroachment by urgently passing the > Kashmiri Hindus > >> shrines and religious places Bill and take other administrative > measures>> like formation of a Waqf- like Hindu Board for their > protection,>> preservation and development. This will be in > keeping with: a) high > >> standards of ethics, b) norms and practices in all open and > democratic>> societies; and, c) the secular Constitution of India. > >> > >> > >> > >> Needless to say that inaction by the state and continuing > >> demolition of Hindu religious infrastructure carries with it a > serious>> potential for a backlash with possibility of horrific > consequences. The > >> privileges enjoyed by the Muslims as a minority community in > India could > >> also become a subject matter of controversy if Hindus are > continually>> persecuted in the Muslim majority J&K state. It is > also relevant to point > >> out that most of the budgetary expenditures in the J&K state > are gifted by > >> the Indian Govt. with taxes mostly paid by Hindus. Surely these > taxpayers do > >> not fund the Kashmir Govt. so it could destroy Hinduism and > achieve forced > >> talibanization of the state. > >> > >> > >> > >> Thank you Mr. Chief Minister and we are looking > forward to your > >> response and prompt action towards resolving this explosive > situation.>> > >> > >> > >> Sincerely, > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Dr. Jagan Kaul > >> Krishan Bhatnagar > >> Hindu Jagran Forum (USA) > >> > >> email: *krishan.kb at verizon.net > >> *February 21, 2008 > >> > >> > >> > >> ============================================================ > >> > >> > >> > >> Attachment A > >> > >> > >> > >> *J&K temples being sold, allege Pandits ** > >> ** > >> *Kavita Suri > >> > >> Statesman, Feb 11, 2008 > >> > >> > >> JAMMU, Feb. 10: Kashmiri Pandits allege that the Muslim- > majority government > >> in Jammu and Kashmir is ignoring illegal sale of Hindu temples > and other > >> community properties in the state. > >> Less than 5,000 Kashmiri Pandits who live in the Kashmir valley > say that > >> their resistance to sale of temple properties has exposed them > to threats > >> from a very powerful land mafia. Pandits allege they have been > warned>> against protesting, or face the consequences. > >> > >> > >> These Pandits say that despite the state government's "verbal > assurances" to > >> protect temple properties, nothing is being done to save them. > A promise to > >> bring in legislation during the recent assembly session to > prevent sale of > >> such properties was not fulfilled. To the disappointment of > Pandits, the > >> legislature was adjourned sine die without introduction of the > bill.>> > >> > >> The Pandits say there is more to the non-introduction of the > Bill than meets > >> the eye. They claim that powerful interests, including a land > mafia,>> scuttled the legislation. > >> > >> > >> The ground realities in Kashmir are alarming. The Dharmarth > Trust headed by > >> Dr Karan Singh has locked up an ancient and historical temple > Ram jee of > >> Barbar Shah. This is the first time in its known history that > the temple has > >> been locked. Security forces living in the adjacent dharmashala > have been > >> told not to enter the temple precincts. > >> > >> > >> "For all these years, it was a routine with us, the few > Kashmiri Pandits > >> living in the Valley, to come here every Sunday for a get- > together, make > >> prasad and distribute it among devotees. But the trust > management, with the > >> help of the state government, locked up the temple and no one > has been > >> allowed to enter for the past month," said Mr Vijay Sas of the > Kashmiri>> Pandit Sangarsh Samiti (KPSS), Kashmir. > >> > >> > >> Pandits allege that some in the Dharmarth Trust management want > to sell off > >> the property of the temple, valued at Rs 300 crore. In fact, > some of them > >> allege that the property will be sold to an influential Muslim > living in the > >> Valley. The property located just across the Rambagh Bridge and > opposite the > >> Metrological Department is at a prime location. > >> > >> > >> Inside the huge plot of land, there is an ancient Shiva temple, > said to be > >> around 1200 years old. The lingam is said to be more than 8.5 > feet high. > >> > >> > >> > >> The KPSS filed a PIL in the Supreme Court and was asked to file > a fresh case > >> in the concerned High Court. A case is already pending in the > High Court of > >> Jammu and Kashmir, Srinagar Wing. > >> > >> > >> "Since January 2008, another incident of sale of our religious > and community > >> property has surfaced in Kashmir. It is the sale of DAV School > in Rainawari > >> by one Roshan Lal Raina who was just a teacher in that school > but turned > >> into a broker," said Mr Sas. > >> > >> > >> > >> Pandits allege that the sale took place at the behest of an > influential>> official attached to the Director-General of Police, > J&K.>> > >> > >> "KPSS has taken the legal course in the matter but we are > worried," said a > >> displaced pandit. But they hope the court will intervene and > stay the sale > >> of temples. > >> > >> > >> "The problem is that the national media is not interested in > the story while > >> the local Muslim-majority media does not care," said Mr Sas. > >> > >> > >> "If the government fails to bring a Bill in the ongoing session > of the state > >> Assembly to ban sale of temples and other religious properties, > we will > >> proceed on a fast unto death," KPSS president Mr Sanjay Tickoo > said.>> > >> > >> > >> > http://www.thestatesman.org/page.arcview.php?clid=2&id=216888&usrsess=1>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ====================================== > >> > >> Attachmant B > >> > >> > >> > >> *Mufti govt 'talibanising everything': BJP* > >> > >> Source: PTI > >> Publication: Rediff on Net > >> Date: July 2, 2005 > >> URL: http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/jul/02mufti.htm > >> > >> Taking exception to Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Mufti > Mohammad Sayeed > >> describing Hari Parbat as 'Koh-i-Maran', the Bharatiya Janata > Party on > >> Saturday accused the coalition government of supporting > 'talibanisation'.>> > >> "The BJP is of the opinion that the Congress party is giving > full support to > >> the People's Democratic Party (of Mehbooba Mufti) that has been > >> systematically destroying the symbols of historical importance and > >> talibanising everything in Kashmir," state unit BJP vice > president and > >> spokesperson Hari Om told reporters in Jammu. > >> > >> The BJP claimed to have 'definite information' that a few days ago, > >> officials from the state and New Delhi held a meeting in > Srinagar about a > >> proposal to change names of some landmarks in the state. > >> > >> Sayeed had on June 20 described Hari Parbat as 'Koh-i-Maran' > and a > >> ministerial colleague of his had called Shankaracharya Hill > 'Sulaiman Teng', > >> Hari Om said, adding that the BJP rejected outright Pradesh > Congress>> Committee chief Peerzada Sayeed's assurance that there > was no proposal to > >> rename the two hills. > >> > >> ============================================ > >> > >> > >> > >> Attachmant C > >> > >> > >> > >> *Destruction of Cultural Symbols :** > >> Reprehensible History of Fanatic Vandalism* > >> > >> Organiser, November 14, 2004 > >> > >> Desecration, damage and destruction of temples is not a new and > unusual>> phenomenon. The process has been continuously going on > ever since Kashmir > >> passed into the political domination of Muslim rulers in the > first quarter > >> of the fourteenth century. > >> > >> Islam, like other Semitic religions enjoins upon the faithfuls > to expand > >> their religion by proselytising the heathens, infidels and kafirs > >> (non-believers) to their faith to gain religious merit. Jehad > or holy war is > >> the instrument that is used for proselytisation. The Muslim > rulers of > >> Kashmir, the Mughals and Pathans made full use of their > political authority > >> to effect conversion of Hindus of the Valley. To achieve the > objectives, it > >> became imperative for them to wipe out all traces of religious > and cultural > >> symbols of Hindus, which included their temples, libraries, > universities and > >> ashrams. > >> > >> In Kashmir, gunpowder was used for the first time, not for > fighting a war, > >> but for destroying massive Hindu stone temples. When it was > felt that the > >> fissionable material was not available in a sufficient quantity for > >> iconoclasm, the nearby jungles were cut down and used for > setting on fire > >> the giant stone structures of the Hindu temples. By excessive > heat the > >> stones burst, broke away and these gigantic structures crumbled > in the fire > >> that spread through the length and breadth of Kashmir. The > ruins of Martand, > >> Avantipur, Devar, etc. are mute witnesses of the depredation. > >> > >> *Temples** Vandalised in February 1986* > >> > >> *ANANTNAG DISTRICT:* > >> > >> 1. > >> > >> Anantnag Town: > >> > >> Two temples damaged and one looted. > >> > >> 2. > >> > >> Achhabal: > >> > >> One temple desecrated, shit thrown on idols. > >> > >> 3. > >> > >> Moripura: > >> > >> One temple demolished. > >> > >> 4. > >> > >> Sagam: > >> > >> One temple partially burnt. > >> > >> 5. > >> > >> Naogam: > >> > >> One temple partially burnt. > >> > >> 6. > >> > >> Telvani: > >> > >> One temple partially burnt. > >> > >> 7. > >> > >> Gautamnag: > >> > >> One two-storeyed temple burnt and a dharamshala stoned. > >> > >> 8. > >> > >> Krangsoo: > >> > >> Pujari Baba of a temple beaten. > >> > >> 9. > >> > >> Akura (Mattan): > >> > >> One temple and its entire property looted and shed set on fire. > >> > >> 10. > >> > >> Dialgam: > >> > >> One temple heavily damaged by stoning. > >> > >> 11. > >> > >> Salar: > >> > >> One temple set on fire. > >> > >> 12. > >> > >> Aishmuqam: > >> > >> One temple set on fire. > >> > >> 13. > >> > >> Bijbehara town: > >> > >> Two temples completely looted; ancient idol valued at more than > Rs 10 lakh > >> broken; Jai Devi temple desecrated and idol stolen. > >> > >> 14. > >> > >> Wanpoh (Gasipura): > >> > >> Two temples and samadhi of Swami Dama Kak completely burnt. > >> > >> 15. > >> > >> Dhanav (Bogund): > >> > >> Two temples and one dharamshala burnt. > >> > >> 16. > >> > >> Chogam: > >> > >> One temple stoned; its doors, windows and three pillars broken. > >> > >> 17. > >> > >> Verinag: > >> > >> One temple on the parikrama of the holy spring damaged, doors > broken, idols > >> thrown into the spring. Pawan Sandhya, a religious teerth, > converted into a > >> place for construction of mosque. > >> > >> 18. > >> > >> Larkipora: > >> > >> Three temples of Goddess Durga, Siddha Lakshmi and Shiva > completely burnt; > >> idols broken into pieces. > >> > >> 19. > >> > >> Fatehpura: > >> > >> One temple completely burnt alongwith its entrance gate; > ancient Shiva idol > >> broken into pieces. > >> > >> 20. > >> > >> Quill (Pulwama): > >> > >> One temple damaged partially. > >> > >> 21. > >> > >> Trisal: > >> > >> One temple stoned; compound wall of another temple damaged. > >> > >> 22. > >> > >> Pawan Sandhya: > >> > >> Converted into mosque. > >> > >> *SRINAGAR DISTRICT:* > >> > >> 23. > >> > >> Ganpatyar (Srinagar): > >> > >> Temple heavily stoned. > >> > >> 24. > >> > >> Jawahar Nagar: > >> > >> Shiva Mandir desecrated and damaged; its property brought out > and consigned > >> to flames. > >> > >> 25. > >> > >> Maisuma: > >> > >> Dashnami akhara, from where Charri Mubarak leaves for holy > Amarnath cave > >> burnt down. > >> > >> 26. > >> > >> Raghunath Mandir: > >> > >> Damaged by stoning. > >> > >> 27. > >> > >> Tulamulla: > >> > >> One temple in the village burnt. > >> > >> 28. > >> > >> Waskura: > >> > >> The famous temple of Mata Rupa Bhawani partially burnt. > >> > >> 29. > >> > >> Gandherbal: > >> > >> Two temples burnt and two temples damaged. > >> > >> *BUDGAM DISTRICT:* > >> > >> 30. > >> > >> Yachhgam: > >> > >> One temple partially damaged. > >> > >> 31. > >> > >> Badgam town: > >> > >> Sharda temple damaged. > >> > >> 32. > >> > >> Chadura: > >> > >> One temple damaged. > >> > >> *KUPWARA DISTRICT:* > >> > >> 33. > >> > >> Tekpora: > >> > >> One temple burnt. > >> > >> 34. > >> > >> Lalpura: > >> > >> One temple burnt. > >> > >> 35. > >> > >> Handwara: > >> > >> One temple damaged. > >> > >> *BARAMULLA DISTRICT:* > >> > >> 36. > >> > >> Baramulla town: > >> > >> One temple partially damaged. > >> > >> 37. > >> > >> Venkura: > >> > >> One temple fully damaged. > >> > >> 38. > >> > >> Sopore: > >> > >> One temple partially damaged. > >> > >> 39. > >> > >> Bandipora: > >> > >> One temple partially burnt. > >> > >> > >> > >> After India achieved freedom and Kashmir acceded to the Union > of India, > >> temple desecration was resumed. Temple lands, cremation > grounds, etc. of > >> Hindus were usurped for expansion of Islam. The famous > Bhairavnath temple of > >> Chattabal, Srinagar was locked up by the police. The judicial > case pending > >> in court concerning this temple was never allowed to be > decided. Precious > >> lands around Hari Parbat hill, Durganag temple ofSrinagar and > lands at > >> several Hindu places of worship in the Valley were slowly and > steadily>> turned into lands under occupation of Muslim trusts > (Maqboozai-Ahali-Islam). > >> In 1967, Shivala temple, Chotta Nazar, Srinagar was desecrated. > Again in > >> 1984 Shri Hanuman temple at Hari Singh High Street was damaged > and in the > >> same year Arya Samaj temple of Wazir Bagh, Srinagar was burnt > down. From > >> 1986, the law and order situation in the Valley deteriorated > day by day and > >> temple desecration became the order of the day. > >> > >> > >> > >> After India achieved freedom and Kashmir acceded to the Union > of India, > >> temple desecration was resumed. Temple lands, cremation > grounds, etc. of > >> Hindus were usurped for expansion of Islam. > >> > >> *Temples** desecrated, damaged or destroyed in response to > community calls > >> for Jehad from 1987 to 1990* > >> > >> 1. > >> > >> Sri Puran Raja Bhairav at Hawal, Srinagar (completely burnt). > >> > >> 2. > >> > >> Vandev Mandir, Hari Parbat (completely burnt). > >> > >> 3. > >> > >> Kathlishwar Mandir, Zaindar Mohalla, Srinagar (partly damaged). > >> > >> 4. > >> > >> Gouri Shanker Mandir, Kani-Kadal (damaged). > >> > >> 5. > >> > >> Somyar Mandir, Habba Kaddal shopping complex (completely burnt). > >> > >> 6. > >> > >> Shiva Mandir, Shetalnath, Srinagar (burnt). > >> > >> 7. > >> > >> Shiva Mandir, Malapora, Srinagar (burnt). > >> > >> 8. > >> > >> Shailputri Asthapan Mandir, Baramulla (burnt). > >> > >> 9. > >> > >> Gautam Nag Mandir, Anantnag (attacks have been frequent). > >> > >> 10. > >> > >> Raghunath Mandir, Anantnag (attacks have been frequent). > >> > >> 11. > >> > >> Tikipora Mandir, Kupwara. > >> > >> 12. > >> > >> Sri Lakshmi Narayan Mandir, Bulbul Lankar, Srinagar (ancient > priceless idol > >> removed by breaking one of the temple walls). > >> > >> 13. > >> > >> Temple at Shopian with four buildings and shopping complex > burnt. The mahant > >> at Napli mercilessly beaten; a south Indian sadhu assisting the > mahant was > >> asked to kill a cow. Pine, walnut, apple, kikar and poplar > trees spread over > >> 18 kanals of temple land to a great extent were destroyed. The > sadhu>> identified some people of Danda Mohalla, mainly one Hussan > Dand and Kuda > >> Dand, leading the mob besides Jamaat-i-Islami workers on carnage. > >> > >> 14. > >> > >> Idols in Shiva Mandir, Batayar (desecrated). > >> > >> 15. > >> > >> Holy spring with Shiva idol desecrated at Khrew, resulting in > Hindu-Muslim > >> conflict in the village. > >> > >> > >> > >> *Temples** desecrated and damaged in Kashmir from 1990 to > December 1992* > >> > >> *1. DASHNAMI AKHARA, SRINAGAR* > >> On the opposite side of the shopping complex of WAKF building, > housing a > >> library, reading room and an office of Jamaat-i-Islami, lies > the age-old > >> akhara in Badshah Chowk, Srinagar. The temple in the akhara is > surrounded by > >> three storeyed shopping-cum-hotel-cum-office complex on three > sides. There > >> is a beautiful park in the premises, dharamshalas for sadhus, > residence of > >> the mahant, etc. The akhara has provided a vast area to Suraj > Transport>> Company for use as godown and parking space on rent. > The akhara has been a > >> chronic eyesore to the Jamaat-i-Islami. It was attacked > countless times but > >> in early 1990, mobs forced entry into the premises causing a > devastating>> fire, and loss of property in crores in godowns and > a portion of mahant's > >> residence. CRPF suffered heavy injuries while protecting the > temple.>> > >> *2. GANPATYAR TEMPLE* > >> Ganpatyar has been attracting mob attacks right from 1953. Al- > Aksa episode, > >> Satanic Verses, Zia's death, fall of East Pakistan, defeat of > Pakistan in > >> cricket, etc. have been the causes. From the onset of > insurgency it was > >> stoned, attacked by bomb blasts and rockets on various > occasions but CRPF in > >> one of its dharamshalas saved the shrine at great cost. > >> > >> *3. RAGHUNATH MANDIR, SRINAGAR* > >> The school caught fire when the dharamshala of the temple was > set on fire in > >> early 1990 while worshipping in the temple was forbidden. > However, the > >> worshippers refused to stop worship. The premises were set on fire. > >> > >> *4. SHIVA TEMPLE, JAWAHAR NAGAR, SRINAGAR* > >> The property in the dharamshala was brought out along with some > puja>> material and idols from the temple; some removed and some > consigned to > >> flames. > >> > >> *5. HANUMAN MANDIR, SRINAGAR* > >> Desecrated long before the start of insurgency which necessitated > >> round-the-clock CRPF guard. The massive Panchamukhi Hanuman > idol suffered > >> some damage in early 1990. > >> > >> *6. SHIVA TEMPLE, BARBAR SHAH, SRINAGAR* > >> It was desecrated a number of times. What is desecrated is not > safe.>> Desecration itself is heinous sacrilege. > >> > >> *7. JAI DEVI TEMPLE, BIJBEHARA* > >> Desecrated, idols stoned, compound wall broken in 1986. > >> > >> *8. VIJESHWAR TEMPLE, BIJBEHARA* > >> Night soil was thrown on 10 Shiva lingas inside the temple in > 1986, and > >> compound wall broken. > >> > >> *9. SHIVA MANDIR, BIJBEHARA* > >> Ancient idols valued over Rs 10 lakhs in the shrine were looted > in 1986. > >> > >> *10. RAGHUNATH TEMPLE, ANANTNAG* > >> According to Mahant Sukhram and other sources, mostly Muslims, > it suffered > >> nine bomb attacks, seven blasts in police station, Anantnag. > Refer to FIR > >> No. 307/427 dated 9-1-91. > >> > >> *11. GAUTAM NAG TEMPLE, ANANTNAG* > >> The double-storey temple (60 x 40) was burnt to ashes in > presence of > >> homeguard personnel and property loss was estimated to the tune > of Rs 28 > >> lakhs, leaving aside priceless ancient manuscripts in Sanskrit > and Sharda. > >> The orchard on 145 canals of land with thirty thousand fruit > trees was > >> mercilessly attacked by fanatical mobs, leaving hardly three > thousand trees > >> to survive. > >> > >> *12. THREE TEMPLES OF LUKHBHAVAN, LARKIPURA, ANANTNAG* > >> Damaged in 1986. Subsequently repaired. Dharamshala burnt, > temple suffered > >> some damage again in 1992. > >> > >> *13. WANPOH MANDIR, ANANTNAG* > >> The idols have been desecrated publicly in respect of this > shrine on > >> 21-2-1992, according to sources. > >> > >> *14. SHAILPUTRI TEMPLE, BARAMULLA* > >> Damaged in 1990. > >> > >> *15. DAYALGAM MANDIR, ANANTNAG* > >> It was stoned heavily but was somehow not razed to the ground. > >> > >> *16. BHAIRAVANATH MANDIR, BARAMULLA* > >> Damaged in1990. > >> > >> *17. BHAIRAVANATH MANDIR, SOPORE* > >> Desecrated and damaged. > >> > >> *18. RUPABHAVANI MANDIR, VASAKURA* > >> Idols, ashram utensils removed. Night soil thrown on the steps > in early > >> 1990, a dozen times. Protesting Hindus of the vicinity > mercilessly beaten. > >> > >> *19. KHIRBHAVANI MANDIR, GANDERBAL* > >> According to B.G. Verghese, "Its origin goes to epic times. The > security>> forces in its precincts attracted rocket attacks on > April 4, 1991, which > >> chipped some concrete off the outer gate. It again came under > attack on May > >> 4. Bullet marks can be seen on the other structures." > >> > >> *20. SHIVA TEMPLE, GANDERBAL* > >> Desecrated and damaged. > >> > >> *21. MATTAN TEMPLE, ANANTNAG* > >> A mob entered the premises, after namaz, claiming it to be a > Muslim shrine. > >> > >> *Minister of State for Home, Shri M.M. Jacob told the Lok Sabha > on 12-3-1993 > >> that 38 places of worship were damaged in J&K state, 13 in > 1989, nine in > >> 1990 and 16 in 1991.* > >> > >> *DETAILS OF THE TEMPLES DESTROYED IN J&K STATE AFTER DECEMBER > 6, 1992* > >> > >> *DISTRICT ANANTANAG* > >> > >> *S.No* > >> > >> *Date* > >> > >> *Description of Temple* > >> > >> *FIR No.* > >> > >> *Police Station* > >> > >> 1. > >> > >> 8.12.1992 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> - -- > >> "The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who > cannot read and > >> write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn." > >> Alvin Toffler > >> > >> http://wanderlustt.blogspot.com > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Tue Jul 8 14:06:05 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 13:36:05 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] CRPF attacks journalists in Srinagar In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807070840m76e1beffg141fc1d9215ae65c@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807070840m76e1beffg141fc1d9215ae65c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Shivam, now that you are with spins in Kasmir, you may not miss the big drama unfolding in the national capital, have you seen the behaviour of "journalists" at the media briefings held by the leaders of political parties. ? It was virtual wrestling match to keep their mikes, their camera positions in good catchy vantage view point, even pushing and shoving their fellow journalists, very honourable behaviors indeed.! And as to seeking answers, it was all shouting at the same time, all questions similar, nothing new issue also but crave to be the first to catch the sound byte for their channels.? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् Date: Monday, July 7, 2008 9:10 pm Subject: [Reader-list] CRPF attacks journalists in Srinagar To: sarai list , zestmedia at yahoogroups.com > In any other state capital, such an attack on journalists would have > made headline news in the Delhi media. For Srinagar, silence. > > o o o o > > Media persons thrashed > Div Com, IGP Promise Action > > > Greater kashmir > GK NEWS NETWORK > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=6_7_2008&ItemID=27&cat=1 > > > Srinagar, July 5: Journalists on Saturday strongly condemned the use > of brute force on them time and again by police and troops of Central > Reserve Police Force to prevent them from discharging their > professional duties. > About 100 media men including photojournalists and videographers > lashed out at police and troops. "Beating of photojournalists and > videographers by police has become a routine for the past two months," > said a journalist, adding that such actions were "highly condemnable." > > A case in point is when the CRPF troopers deployed near Nigin Club > harassed two Greater Kashmir staffers, on their way home after the > days work, last night. At about 11 p.m. the staffers were stopped by > the troops and asked to board down their vehicle. They frisked the > vehicle bearing registration No MH 04 AH 8817 and showered all sorts > of questions like what they were doing and where there were going "so > late." > > Even after the staffers disclosed their identity, the troopers > responded with "What if you are from the Press?" > When the staffers told them to contact their own PRO, the troopers > made light of their own superior, saying, "Who is he, he must be > sleeping with…" Detaining the staffers for half an hour more, > unnecessarily, the troopers finally allowed them to proceed. Concerned > over the growing incidents of harassment, a meeting was called today > after six journalists were beaten by police and CRPF troops at Soura > while covering the protests which erupted after fire broke out at the > Jenab Sahib Shrine. The meeting urged the authorities to call an > immediate halt to such incidents and restrain their personnel. > > After the meeting, the divisional commissioner, Mehboob Iqbal, and the > inspector-general of police, S M Sahai, visited the Press Enclave this > evening to ascertain the facts. "We'll take up the matter with the > CRPF and police officials and see where the problem lies," Sahai > assured the journalists. > > Mehboob Iqbal said: "We'll hold a meeting of the CRPF and police > officials and also invite journalists to sort out the matter once for > all." > > Meanwhile, Kashmir Press, the premier body of newspaper editors in > Kashmir, on Saturday condemned the attack on media persons by CRPF at > Jenab Sahib Soura. > In a statement, President of the Association, Ghulam Hassan Kaloo, > condemned the CRPF action on media persons and demanded a probe into > the incident. > > "The association demands action as well as probe into the > thrashing of > media persons by CRPF and IG CRPF should take cognizance of the > incidents where journalists are being targeted by his men," he said. > Repeated attempts by Greater Kashmir to contact the inspector-general, > CRPF, and his PRO failed. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 14:21:12 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:21:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CRPF attacks journalists in Srinagar In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807070840m76e1beffg141fc1d9215ae65c@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807070840m76e1beffg141fc1d9215ae65c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807080151y1d6e2a47u6cfa6e426f355ad0@mail.gmail.com> Article 370......they live with it ...they should die with it ...their prefrence ....they have a separate constitution ,.....let them appeal under RPC acts....... Your obsession is just too compulsive On 7/7/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > In any other state capital, such an attack on journalists would have > made headline news in the Delhi media. For Srinagar, silence. > > o o o o > > Media persons thrashed > Div Com, IGP Promise Action > > > Greater kashmir > GK NEWS NETWORK > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=6_7_2008&ItemID=27&cat=1 > > > Srinagar, July 5: Journalists on Saturday strongly condemned the use > of brute force on them time and again by police and troops of Central > Reserve Police Force to prevent them from discharging their > professional duties. > About 100 media men including photojournalists and videographers > lashed out at police and troops. "Beating of photojournalists and > videographers by police has become a routine for the past two months," > said a journalist, adding that such actions were "highly condemnable." > > A case in point is when the CRPF troopers deployed near Nigin Club > harassed two Greater Kashmir staffers, on their way home after the > days work, last night. At about 11 p.m. the staffers were stopped by > the troops and asked to board down their vehicle. They frisked the > vehicle bearing registration No MH 04 AH 8817 and showered all sorts > of questions like what they were doing and where there were going "so > late." > > Even after the staffers disclosed their identity, the troopers > responded with "What if you are from the Press?" > When the staffers told them to contact their own PRO, the troopers > made light of their own superior, saying, "Who is he, he must be > sleeping with…" Detaining the staffers for half an hour more, > unnecessarily, the troopers finally allowed them to proceed. Concerned > over the growing incidents of harassment, a meeting was called today > after six journalists were beaten by police and CRPF troops at Soura > while covering the protests which erupted after fire broke out at the > Jenab Sahib Shrine. The meeting urged the authorities to call an > immediate halt to such incidents and restrain their personnel. > > After the meeting, the divisional commissioner, Mehboob Iqbal, and the > inspector-general of police, S M Sahai, visited the Press Enclave this > evening to ascertain the facts. "We'll take up the matter with the > CRPF and police officials and see where the problem lies," Sahai > assured the journalists. > > Mehboob Iqbal said: "We'll hold a meeting of the CRPF and police > officials and also invite journalists to sort out the matter once for > all." > > Meanwhile, Kashmir Press, the premier body of newspaper editors in > Kashmir, on Saturday condemned the attack on media persons by CRPF at > Jenab Sahib Soura. > In a statement, President of the Association, Ghulam Hassan Kaloo, > condemned the CRPF action on media persons and demanded a probe into > the incident. > > "The association demands action as well as probe into the thrashing of > media persons by CRPF and IG CRPF should take cognizance of the > incidents where journalists are being targeted by his men," he said. > Repeated attempts by Greater Kashmir to contact the inspector-general, > CRPF, and his PRO failed. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 14:24:55 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 14:24:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807071024m16b883a3w2505bd045ce6c441@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030822v65264b07p88ebd5cc5073e451@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990807040236t59f8c6a3i60b18844fae371cf@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807040248o33f2c3b8pe1b13032851509a7@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807071024m16b883a3w2505bd045ce6c441@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807080154h48a8f83eu6661ed8967b429af@mail.gmail.com> Shivam , If you believe non has died in Jammu , you are mistaken ....I understand the kind of information you may be getting in Kashmir . God Bless you .. On 7/7/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > > you are not in public life....Shivam is . He is a journalist who creates > > public opinions. > > Partha is just as much in public life as me, I humbly submit, because > he is using this list to influence public opinion. So don't target me > by way of my profession. I am not on this list by virtue of my > profession and am not engaging on that count. So please stop these > below-the-belt attacks. > > > Lastly ......what made Ghulam Nabi Azaad impose curfew in Jammu , while > as > > Kashmir was let loose.. > > Good question. And another one: what made the CRPF kill six in the > Kashmir protests, but not one has died in Jammu? > > best > shivam > > > On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 3:18 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > Partha , > > > > you are not in public life....Shivam is . He is a journalist who creates > > public opinions. > > > > That makes a difference. > > > > Lastly ......what made Ghulam Nabi Azaad impose curfew in Jammu , while > as > > Kashmir was let loose.. > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On 7/4/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > >> > >> Dear Radhikarajen, > >> > >> 1. I have friends, some of whom are Muslims. When I make friends, I > >> look at whether > >> or not I like them and if I can vibe with them. There caste / > >> relegion or even lack > >> thereof is irrelevant to me. > >> > >> 2. I stay in my own house and eat my own food. Though I do travel to > >> my friends house > >> and eat there as well. > >> > >> Does this mean that my body or mind is being held hostage? > >> > >> That logic is ridiculous. If you disagree with any statement or > >> position that someone has taken, go ahead and disagree. > >> > >> However, none of us have super powers to be able to read anyone's mind > >> and know why they are saying what - unless you're going to claim you > >> do? > >> > >> Rgds, Partha > >> .................................................. > >> > >> On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 12:57 PM, wrote: > >> > Hi, Shivam, > >> > > >> > who is financing your stay in Srinagar, it looks like you are > being > >> held hostage with good food and your thoughts are that of a hostage > talking > >> good about his kidnappers.! By the way I hope you are guest of Gulam > nabi or > >> Mufti as both are known spin doctors who use the bakras like you.? > >> > > >> > Regards. > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > >> > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:53 pm > >> > Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat > >> > To: sarai list > >> > > >> >> Tolerant Kashmiris > >> >> 26 June, 2008 08:10:48 > >> >> http://www.etalaat.net/english/viewpoint/editorial/1111.html > >> >> > >> >> Vested interests are all out to communalize the on-going agitation > >> >> against transfer of forest land to the Amarnath Shrine Board. Time > and > >> >> again it has been made clear that the on-going agitation is not > >> >> against the Yatra or the Yatries. The agitation is against > >> >> politicization of the Yatra. Kashmiris want the government to entrust > >> >> the job of conducting and facilitating Yatra to the local people who > >> >> have been conducting it effectively since 1860. > >> >> > >> >> To understand the on-going agitation against land transfer in its > >> >> right perspectives one has to look into the history of Kashmir.When > >> >> important decisions concerning the future of Kashmir were taken > >> >> Kashmiris were always ignored. In 1947 a decision was imposed on the > >> >> reluctant people and since then the trend continues. In early 60s the > >> >> government of India omitted Article 238 from Indian constitution and > >> >> thus rendered article 370 infructious. The Article 370 which > >> >> guarantees a special status to the state of Jammu Kashmir reads: "Not > >> >> withstanding any thing nothing in Article 238 shall apply to the > state > >> >> of Jammu Kashmir." Article 370 is still there but article 238 which > >> >> contained the heart and soul of 370 is not there in the constitution. > >> >> Kashmiris to this day do not know about this fraud. > >> >> > >> >> Similarly the government of India abolished the permit system which > >> >> required the non-state subjects to obtain a permit for entering the > >> >> state. Again the people were not taken into confidence. In 1975 a > >> >> popular movement was strangled. Again the people did not protest. In > >> >> 1978 the draconian public safety act (PSA) was framed. People did not > >> >> protest. In 1984 TADA was extended to the state. People remained > >> >> silent. The Gulmarg issue shook them and the transfer of land did the > >> >> miracle. Even this time the government had taken the people for > >> >> granted. > >> >> > >> >> People are angry but they have not thrown caution to the winds. They > >> >> have upheld the high traditions of tolerance and have not harmed any > >> >> Yatri or a tourist. This is exactly what Islam teaches them. The > >> >> Yatries are welcome and so are the tourists. Kashmiris are known for > >> >> their hospitality and they will not disappoint the pilgrims and other > >> >> guests. > >> >> > >> >> History is witness to the fact that Kashmiris have always protected > >> >> their non-Muslim brethren. Hundreds of instances can be quoted to > >> >> prove the point. However, the following incident shall suffice. A > >> >> person who retired as the Chief Conservator of Forests lived in > >> >> Shahr-e-Khaas during his college days. One day while on his way to > the > >> >> college he was intercepted by a crowd. Taken for a Bakra (A supporter > >> >> of Mirwaiz Yusuf Shah) he was given sound thrashing. Somehow he ran > >> >> away but only to be caught by another violent group. This time he was > >> >> taken for a Sher (Supporter of Sheikh Abdullah) and beaten to pulp. > >> >> Again he managed his escape. When caught for the third time, he > >> >> shouted: "I am a Pandit." Nobody touched him this time. He was given > >> >> safe passage. > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> >> list > >> >> List archive: > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Partha Dasgupta > >> +919811047132 > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Tue Jul 8 16:15:54 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 15:45:54 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70807080154h48a8f83eu6661ed8967b429af@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807030822v65264b07p88ebd5cc5073e451@mail.gmail.com> <"e3 97bab8696c1.486e172d"@vsnl.net> <32144e990807040236t59f8c6a3i60b18844fae371cf@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807071024m16b883a3w2505bd045ce6c441@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807080154h48a8f83eu6661ed8967b429af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Pawan, to be a "journalist" today all that you need is a degree and a diploma in mass communications, and ofcourse right connections, no need of verification of facts available to you before you post the news, propagate the thoughts, you need not have any ethics and morals as long as your kitty is full of sponsors of any denomination to propagate their views as gospel new truth.! Otherwise this Shivam would not have missed the truth of citizens death in jammu injuries of citizens on protets.! That apart, when it comes to even identity of a citizen with respect to his state of birth, be it kashmir or kanyakumari, there are 30 states and citizens in all those states, and these citizens have their pride in being the Karnataka, Maharashtra or tamilnadu or Kashmir, but being Indian is the overiding factor, which unfortunately these neo breed of journalists do not seem to comprehend.? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Pawan Durani Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 2:25 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat To: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् Cc: sarai list > Shivam , > > If you believe non has died in Jammu , you are mistaken ....I > understand the > kind of information you may be getting in Kashmir . > > God Bless you .. > > > On 7/7/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > > > > you are not in public life....Shivam is . He is a journalist > who creates > > > public opinions. > > > > Partha is just as much in public life as me, I humbly submit, > because> he is using this list to influence public opinion. So > don't target me > > by way of my profession. I am not on this list by virtue of my > > profession and am not engaging on that count. So please stop these > > below-the-belt attacks. > > > > > Lastly ......what made Ghulam Nabi Azaad impose curfew in > Jammu , while > > as > > > Kashmir was let loose.. > > > > Good question. And another one: what made the CRPF kill six in the > > Kashmir protests, but not one has died in Jammu? > > > > best > > shivam > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 3:18 PM, Pawan Durani > > wrote: > > > Partha , > > > > > > you are not in public life....Shivam is . He is a journalist > who creates > > > public opinions. > > > > > > That makes a difference. > > > > > > Lastly ......what made Ghulam Nabi Azaad impose curfew in > Jammu , while > > as > > > Kashmir was let loose.. > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > On 7/4/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > >> > > >> Dear Radhikarajen, > > >> > > >> 1. I have friends, some of whom are Muslims. When I make > friends, I > > >> look at whether > > >> or not I like them and if I can vibe with them. There > caste / > > >> relegion or even lack > > >> thereof is irrelevant to me. > > >> > > >> 2. I stay in my own house and eat my own food. Though I do > travel to > > >> my friends house > > >> and eat there as well. > > >> > > >> Does this mean that my body or mind is being held hostage? > > >> > > >> That logic is ridiculous. If you disagree with any statement or > > >> position that someone has taken, go ahead and disagree. > > >> > > >> However, none of us have super powers to be able to read > anyone's mind > > >> and know why they are saying what - unless you're going to > claim you > > >> do? > > >> > > >> Rgds, Partha > > >> .................................................. > > >> > > >> On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 12:57 PM, wrote: > > >> > Hi, Shivam, > > >> > > > >> > who is financing your stay in Srinagar, it looks like > you are > > being > > >> held hostage with good food and your thoughts are that of a > hostage> talking > > >> good about his kidnappers.! By the way I hope you are guest > of Gulam > > nabi or > > >> Mufti as both are known spin doctors who use the bakras like > you.?> >> > > > >> > Regards. > > >> > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > >> > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > > >> > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:53 pm > > >> > Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial > in Etalaat > > >> > To: sarai list > > >> > > > >> >> Tolerant Kashmiris > > >> >> 26 June, 2008 08:10:48 > > >> >> http://www.etalaat.net/english/viewpoint/editorial/1111.html > > >> >> > > >> >> Vested interests are all out to communalize the on-going > agitation> >> >> against transfer of forest land to the Amarnath > Shrine Board. Time > > and > > >> >> again it has been made clear that the on-going agitation > is not > > >> >> against the Yatra or the Yatries. The agitation is against > > >> >> politicization of the Yatra. Kashmiris want the government > to entrust > > >> >> the job of conducting and facilitating Yatra to the local > people who > > >> >> have been conducting it effectively since 1860. > > >> >> > > >> >> To understand the on-going agitation against land transfer > in its > > >> >> right perspectives one has to look into the history of > Kashmir.When> >> >> important decisions concerning the future of > Kashmir were taken > > >> >> Kashmiris were always ignored. In 1947 a decision was > imposed on the > > >> >> reluctant people and since then the trend continues. In > early 60s the > > >> >> government of India omitted Article 238 from Indian > constitution and > > >> >> thus rendered article 370 infructious. The Article 370 which > > >> >> guarantees a special status to the state of Jammu Kashmir > reads: "Not > > >> >> withstanding any thing nothing in Article 238 shall apply > to the > > state > > >> >> of Jammu Kashmir." Article 370 is still there but article > 238 which > > >> >> contained the heart and soul of 370 is not there in the > constitution.> >> >> Kashmiris to this day do not know about this > fraud.> >> >> > > >> >> Similarly the government of India abolished the permit > system which > > >> >> required the non-state subjects to obtain a permit for > entering the > > >> >> state. Again the people were not taken into confidence. > In 1975 a > > >> >> popular movement was strangled. Again the people did not > protest. In > > >> >> 1978 the draconian public safety act (PSA) was framed. > People did not > > >> >> protest. In 1984 TADA was extended to the state. People > remained> >> >> silent. The Gulmarg issue shook them and the > transfer of land did the > > >> >> miracle. Even this time the government had taken the > people for > > >> >> granted. > > >> >> > > >> >> People are angry but they have not thrown caution to the > winds. They > > >> >> have upheld the high traditions of tolerance and have not > harmed any > > >> >> Yatri or a tourist. This is exactly what Islam teaches > them. The > > >> >> Yatries are welcome and so are the tourists. Kashmiris are > known for > > >> >> their hospitality and they will not disappoint the > pilgrims and other > > >> >> guests. > > >> >> > > >> >> History is witness to the fact that Kashmiris have always > protected> >> >> their non-Muslim brethren. Hundreds of instances > can be quoted to > > >> >> prove the point. However, the following incident shall > suffice. A > > >> >> person who retired as the Chief Conservator of Forests > lived in > > >> >> Shahr-e-Khaas during his college days. One day while on > his way to > > the > > >> >> college he was intercepted by a crowd. Taken for a Bakra > (A supporter > > >> >> of Mirwaiz Yusuf Shah) he was given sound thrashing. > Somehow he ran > > >> >> away but only to be caught by another violent group. This > time he was > > >> >> taken for a Sher (Supporter of Sheikh Abdullah) and beaten > to pulp. > > >> >> Again he managed his escape. When caught for the third > time, he > > >> >> shouted: "I am a Pandit." Nobody touched him this time. He > was given > > >> >> safe passage. > > >> >> _________________________________________ > > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > >> >> list > > >> >> List archive: > > >> > _________________________________________ > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > List archive: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Partha Dasgupta > > >> +919811047132 > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 8 17:25:05 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 04:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured In-Reply-To: <47e122a70807071209t7b293816n77b9ca5a3ae696dc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <357549.84335.qm@web57210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Inder Salim   I was hoping you will address some points I had raised in the last response to you. They were based on statements you had made. Let me repeat them:   1. You speak about the Kashmiri "Muslims" having been disrespected.  I do not understand that judgement. Perhaps you might elaborate on how the "Muslims" of Kashmir have been "disrespected".    2. You speak about the SASB affair having "undermined the sensitivity of ....  Muslims". Again I do not understand how SASB affair is linked with "Kashmiri Muslims". Unless of course you yourself subscribe to the view that the SASB affair was one of Muslims against Hindus.    3. (By your pointed reference to "Muslims" you seem to be in agreement with me that the "Kashmir Issue" is about "Religion")   If it is only a question of 'Inder speaks and Kshmendra listen' then please say so clearly.   You make too many off-hand remarks and in the process often contradict yourself or make some strange pronouncements.   - You say you do not believe in nationalism. It seems that you do not believe in Nationalism which is Indian Nationalism. You seem to be a firm believer in Kashmiri Nationalism or more specifically a believer in Islamic Kashmir Nationalism. Need I quote from your writings in support of my deduction?   - You are welcome to your dream but we were not discussing dreams or fantasies. As things stand today, the World is divided up into countries. Anyone who dismisses 'Nationalism' is in fact actually living as per these structured divisions and yet dismissing them. You can only escape from one Nation into another Nation. You yourself in your waking and sleeping hours are subscribing to the (let me call them) 'dictates' of the Laws of the Nation. Your final sociological identity is your citizenship.   - What you do not seem to realise is that those very areas in which the National Boundries have been erased or muddied are the areas which possibly cause a senstive, thinking person like you the most grief. That is Globalisation. That is suspension of Nationalism. Take some examples:      * The International Financial & Financing Institutions like World Bank, IMF, Intnl. Banks and the havoc their 'dictates' can wreck in the lives of the 'poorest of the poor'      * The "Globalised" Patent Laws affecting for example the ability of a 'small farmer' to produce economically using 'traditional' methods or allowing a 'Pharma Mafia' to restrict availability of cheaper drugs.       * The Crude Oil cartelisation or worse still the influencing on Prices by "Globalised" speculators        * The "Globalised" Commodities Markets where the Traders may benefit but never the producer.      * The "Globalised" Credit Card regimes and their profit motive lying in "those who can least afford it must spend the most through borrowings against future earnings and pay usurious rates of interest on default"       * The incest between "Globalised" Equities Markets where an 'econmic crash' in one country takes unawares and forces an 'economic crash' in some other country. Where the Broker never makes a "loss" and most times the High Rollers make the moolah while the small-time Investor/Speculator often realises that the bottom levels are of a "pyramid scam". Where unfettered FDI is no Investment but only has a Motive - "maximise Profits and Exit till you enter a new Cycle".   - Think of any "Globalised" area and you will see how often submitting a country to "Globalisation" benefits the Richer Nations the most and brings exploitation and suffering (to the weaker sections of the society) in the Poorer Nations the most. Only countries firm in asserting their Nationalism are able to somewhat insulate themselves.   - All that you are bothered about is "enable people to move freely". Think about other aspects of suspension of Nationalism.   - Do you realise that even the World Wide Web is subjected to Nationalistic Controls. The Information Highways are not 'free to travel on freeways'. Countries block Websites and Programmes. Countries lay conditions on "results" to Search Engines. You and I communicating is only because it is not being "prevented". Look at the 'filth' on the Internet, look at the Web of Deceits, look at the abuse. Have you seen the Websites accessible in India (look at Rediff for starters) where Hindus, Muslims, Christians are freely abusing each other on 'religion' lines? Shouldn't that be controlled? Yes it should be in the interest of India. That is Nationalism.   - Why are you lecturing me on Shiva and the pilgrimage? I do not think I have expressed any opinion on either. I would possibly comment on what you have written if you were not picking on just one religious group.   - I would agree, if you said that the State has no business to interfere in Religion. The State should also not recognise Religion. There should be no "Religion Specific" Laws. Any religious activity should be treated at par with any other 'social activity' both in terms of what is allowed and what is disallowed. Any pilgrimage should be treated as "large numbers" wanting to travel to a particular place at a particular time. It is the responsibilty of the State that such occassions are properly catered for in terms of maintenance of Law and Order and provision of Security. It should be treated as "tourist" travel. The only place where I see that cognition of Religion is needed is in 'Death' and the need for Municipal Laws provisioning for Shamshaanghaats, Crematoriums, Graveyards, Wells of Silence.   - Equally importantly and what needs to be stated repeatedly, forcefully and incessantly is that "Religion" has no business to interfere in the "State". At least in India.   I feel sad for you that the "muse" has died for you and you find writing of a poem an impossibility.   Kshmendra   --- On Tue, 7/8/08, inder salim wrote: From: inder salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:39 AM dear kshmendra for now, all i want to say is that i am not for any kind of nationalism.... i dont know what that will lead to, i think it will be perhpas better for humanity, if nation states disappear suddenly and enable people to move freely on this planet earth.... i have a dream, you may say it is utopian... so what. desire for nation is not bad, i have huge admiration for people like Bhagat Singh, but the the powers sturctures that cling on the that state in the name of democracy or people is fradulent. Now dont tell me that we helpless to not-to-see-the-other it is interesting to notice how people's simple faith gets translated into something necessary costly rituals... say prem chand's Govdaan, .. . i see misery for the innocent lot, and for that i have every right to undermine, a state, a religion or an identiy....and once it becomes a system that gnaws the dignity existential core of human being,..... i want to restore that one is free to remain glued to something as long as it keeps on milking other's cow. that is why i talked about morals and ethics. now see, there is a great democracy in america and england but when i comes to their foreign affairs they looks barbarians.... and i dont know how to admire their democratic systems endlessly if there is no change.... right now, everyting is stuck, just see, what their democracies did to afganistan and iraq. i have more respect for a poor afgani who has no choice but to shoot alongwith a taliban commander and work in poppy fields in comparison to some one who is drinking beer in new york while criticizing muslim fundamentalism.... in that sense, i have nothing against politics, but against the polticians who are at the helm of affairs.....as jean paul sartre says that politics enters through all the pores of your body,....and realization of that sensitizes me, realization of that reduces my arrogance, and i think that is how i want to understand politics, and that way i know what is the meaning of GAME in politics.... now you that.... now religion, i believe, the state has no business to enter the affairs of the shrine.... why on earth state should provide facilites to a piligrim... a true piligrim has to be really prepared , both physically and mentally.... and above all, SHIVA i believe is about death also... you might be knowing, there is a mountain , just one stop before the amarnath cave which is called Bhairav Baal, and it was famous for real piligirms to climb it and jump on the other side of it....a true love of shiva will be quite educated and brave and should understand the significance of death and sprituality in one go... i still dont understand how a shiva lover can throw stones at others, or burn a tyre, if one goes by the kashmiri philisophy of shivaism well you are within your rights to call it politics, but i see decadence in it at the best it is opportunism, and once it is so, it is free for all, once we realize the absence of morals and ethics in our political acitivity, we are at the mercy of goons and the politicians who love to make a fool of each one of us. about disrespect, just show me one communtiy, at grass root level, in the world history which not suffered humiliation at the hands of their rulers. that is why i am not interested in those who eulogise kings and queens for this or that.... people have suffered, even when a great king was constructing a Taj mahal or making a great wall in china, same goes for the construction of great temples and mosques.......i see pain of a human being in the form of an monument, beauty of it comes next.... that way i see the possibity of a shift in histroy, that way we can see the emergence of a new politics, a new way of living, beyond mindsets and old designs , old territories.... my dear, that muse on the classical canvas died long ago.... we are finished with waste land even, we have come to a stage when even writing a poem is impossiblity.... politics is dead in that sense...the issue is ethics, environment, and my favourite word 'love' is kicking alive, with love and regards is On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Inder Salim > > You say "i know you know well what i am talking about...." > > No Sir I do not. Either we are talking about different things or it must be the limitations of my understanding. > > It must also be the limitations of my being able to express myself that you read meanings other than what I think I have placed in my words. > > - I ddear o not know what "GAMES" you are talking about. If you explain them in simple words, I might be able to comment > > - I spoke about "respect" for "constancy" in "political positions". That could or could not translate into "respect" for the person. That also does not preclude the ones being talked about being political adversaries or being enemies of my country > > - Let me give another example. I see China as being (if not an enemy these days) inimical towards India on many fronts. Yet I have immense respect for China in many spheres. > > - Let me give another example. I see Pakistan as continuing to be an enemy of India. I have no respect for (I have contempt for) Pakistan's shifts over Kashmir especially in the context of it's duplicity with the "Hurriyat Pasand". Yet there are things about and from Pakistan I love. I love their Muslin and Men's Shalvaar Kameez, I love Mehdi Hassan and Nayyara Noor and Sabri Brothers, I love Faiz and Parveen Shakir and Amjad Islam Amjad > > - Saw your list of those you respect. I have no argument with you over that list. > > - You do not respect 'politicians'. For me that is too generalised a statement. Maybe I would not respect "some" or even "most" politicians" but the political system is essential (in my opinion) to any organised society. Irrespective of the form of Government or quality of Governance, every country has a political system. It has to have one. If there isn't one, there will be anarchy. In the case of a "democracy", the politician is of critical importance to the citizen. The Constitution allows Laws, Laws take shape from Legislation, Legislation is enacted by Legislators, Legislators are Politicians. Every aspect of the quality of life in India (for example) is directly or indirectly affected on and effected by the Politicians. You may be dismissive of Politicians if you want to be. For me Politicians are extremely important entities to be evaluated and sieved in one's judgement. > > - I am a firm believer that my final societal identity is the Passport I hold or am eligible for. All Inter- Nation interactions including those of their citizens are conditional to the Laws of each country. Yes I am a firm believer in 'nationalism'. I subscribe to Indian Nationalism. You perhaps are more tuned (correct if I have misheard the strains) into Kashmiri Nationalism. Only the forces of Nature respect no National Boundaries. All other aspects of our lives are linked to the country we belong to (because the Laws of the country govern every other aspect of our lives). Actually the Laws of a Country can even interfere with the reign of Nature, which is when Environmental Concerns take centre-stage. > > - Is the "Kashmir issue" about "Ethics & Morals"? Perhaps it is to some degree in some areas. I see it more as being about "Rights and Responsibilities" and even more so as being "Political" and about "Religion" > > - You speak about the Kashmiri "Muslims" having been disrespected. I do not understand that judgement. Perhaps you might elaborate on how the "Muslims" of Kashmir have been "disrespected". > > - You speak about the SASB affair having "undermined the sensitivity of .... Muslims". Again I do not understand how SASB affair is linked with "Kashmiri Muslims". Unless of course you yourself subscribe to the view that the SASB affair was one of Muslims against Hindus. > > (By your pointed reference to "Muslims" you seem to be in agreement with me that the "Kashmir Issue" is about "Religion") > > - You speak about " 1990 disrespect to kashmiri pandits" being about "ethics and morals". Perhaps it is to some extent. I see it more as a Political affair. I see it more as failure of governance (both at the Centre and State) in having allowed a "fear atmosphere" to develop. > > At least in this mail I see the point that you are trying to make. Correct me if I understood wrongly. You state that you "know" what you should "respect" and seem to suggest I do not "know". Fair enough. You are entitled to your judgement. > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Mon, 7/7/08, inder salim wrote: > > From: inder salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 7:00 PM > > Dear kshmendra > > i quote myself > > and once we are finished with these games.... only then we can begin > to talk about ETHICS and MORALS > > it is again your choice to ignore the most important line of my last > post... i dont feel insecure .... > > i know you know well what i am talking about.... > > now see, you take a position with regard to 'Respect', > you respect, i dont know whethere with capital R or with small r, but > u respect the politicians who are against the occupation of indian > foreces in kashmir.but strangely in the next line you think that they > are enemies of the indian state and you are Indian, right . > i > on the contrary i dont respect a politican, ....... i have respect for > a poet, a musician, an ariist, a social worker a simple worker, a job > less man frustrated by the indiferent state. i respect a poor man on > the road side, i respect a tribalman who is contantly being driven > out of his ecology , > > i respect millions of landless people in india.... i have respect for > the womens rights, i repect you has a human being and in that sense i > respect a politician even. > > yes, i respect the morals and ethics, more than being a nationalist > merely as an identity tag....i respect rebels...... i respect my > teacher AK Mir who publically slapped Mufti Mohd Syed in Bijbehara > because he as a Congress pradesh president masterminded 1986 communal > riots.... i respect a petty theif who threw shit on the judge in delhi > because he was languishing in the jail and could not afford to bail > himself out. > > i have respect for the courage.... and similarly i have respect for > those who uphold their existential beings wheenver the state or the > power structures openly supress and disrespects the ethics and morals > of the other.... > > that is why kashmir issue is about ethics and morals as well..... > > that is why the land transter to shrine board undermined the > sensitivity of the already disrespected kashmiri muslims... > > that is why 1990 disrespect to kashmiri pandits is also about ethics > and morals as well.. > > i see human being through this prism of ethics and morals ... i mix > love with it and see some possiblity to heal the self and the other at > the same time..i may fail in the end because plolitics is exercised > quite ruthlessly in india and abroad.... but i dont regret about my > position. > > at least i know what i should respect > > with love > inder salim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: >> Dear Inder Salim >> >> I wish I had understood what point you were trying to make. >> >> What I did notice is your quoting me partially and out of context and then > using that to put a spin on my words so that you could indulge in innuendos and > make judgements about me. >> >> I was talking of having respect for the 'constant political > position' of people whoever it may be. Geelani was an example for the sake > of comparing with (what I see as) hypocritical declamations of the > "moderate" Hurriyatis (especially Umar Farooq) and their claims of > their brand of the "Hurriyat" call being a 'secular' one. It > is called 'munaafaqat'. >> >> Just to explain it further, I similarly have respect for the 'constant > political position' of Yasin Malik in that he wants (or used to want) the > erstwhile princely State of Jammu & Kashmir to be an Independent Country > with it's territories freed from both Indian and Pakistani control. Again I > say this at the risk of being lynched by my KP brethren. Yasin, in proclaiming > his having eschewed violence was foolish enough to admit that he (and/or JKLF) > had previous to that indulged in 'killings' >> >> I disagree with both positions, of Geelani and Yasin, but that does not > stop me from acknowledging their constancy. >> >> Inder you talk about my 'positions' but you obviously have no idea > of what they are. You only presume. >> >> Anyone who seeks to disturb the peace in my country India is for me an > enemy of the nation. Anyone who seeks to break-up India or bring in violent > divides between it's people is for me an enemy of India. They should be > recognised as, dealt with and treated as enemies. Before your make another > presumption, the 'recognising', 'dealing with' and > 'treating' as enemies neither automatically means nor is suggested by > me should be done by repressive means or incarceration or State Violence. >> >> The affiliations of these 'enemies' are of no importance. They > could be from Hurriyat Conference, or JKLF or RSS or VHP or Bajrang Dal or SIMI > or any other organisation. >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> >> >> --- On Sun, 7/6/08, inder salim wrote: >> >> From: inder salim >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 > injured >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 11:39 PM >> >> Dear Kshmendra >> >> I quote you, "but I have much more respect for the constant political >> position of someone like Hurriyati hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani" >> >> just read your statment again and remember when Syed Ali Shah Geelani >> too said similar about RSS. He really dislkes anything secular >> because a religous stand is logical for both Geelani sahib and for >> RSS. anything else is ambigous >> >> now i quote you again, "It has amused me more to see how easily the >> likes of Umar Farooq, Prof Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other >> Hurriyat 'moderates') are able to fool people into buying their >> 'secular' credentials" >> >> just remember when Atal Behari Vajpayee wrote a poem about the sad >> demolition of Babri Mosque...The words moistened the eyes of the >> naive, but we knew how crocodile weeps... you also know it well >> >> now i know there are positions, well you are within your rights to >> hold one ... that is ok >> >> i just met a kashmiri pandit who was demonstrating at jantar mantar >> today.... and i sarcastically congratulated about the news KASHSMIR >> PANDITOON NAY TODFOD KI, ( riots by kashmir pandits ) It is perhaps >> for the first time i heard about such a news. He understood and >> replied quickly... " if we dont resort to thes acts who will listen > to >> us, we are politically irrlevant in the present political >> situation.... we need to read these situations quickly, and we do it >> from time to time. " >> >> now see how their brother is the valley do the same things for their >> own survial. for example PDP, who need to something from time to time >> to stay in relevant in the volatite politcal games being played in the >> valley..... what is so wrong about it if everything else is not. >> >> and once we are finished with these games.... only then we can being >> to talk about ETHICS and MORALS >> >> >> till then best >> >> inder salim >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 12:27 AM, Kshmendra Kaul > >> wrote: >>> Dear Sonia >>> >>> There is nothing surprising in the religious place Hazrartbal being > the >> start-point for the 'victory' rally. It only reinforces the > evaluation >> that the 'victory' was sought by one religion over the other. For > those >> who achieved the 'victory', what better place to start the > celebration >> than a Shrine/Mosque. >>> >>> Our 'secular' commentators may spout various theories and > analyses >> but those who were a part of that 'victory' were obviously honest > about >> what they had achieved and in the name of which religion. >>> >>> Whether it has been the 1931 'bread movement' or the intense >> rivalry between the 'sher' (of Sheikh Abdullah) and > 'bakra' (of >> Maulvi Farooq) or the Hurriyat (freedom/separatist) movement, the pulpits > of >> both Hazratbal and Jama Masjid have been used as much for political >> speeches/sloganeering and calls for separatism as they have been for > religious >> sermons. >>> >>> It has always amused me to see Umar Farooq (as just one example among >> others) indulge in such political speeches/sloganeering from Jama Masjid, > or >> visit and seek support from his Political Mecca of OIC (and/or Pakistan) > and >> yet at the same time hypocritically claim that the "Hurriyat" >> movement is a secular one. >>> >>> It has amused me more to see how easily the likes of Umar Farooq, Prof >> Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other Hurriyat 'moderates') > are >> able to fool people into buying their 'secular' credentials. >>> >>> My Kashmiri Pandit brethren might lynch me for saying this, but I have >> much more respect for the constant political position of someone like > Hurriyati >> hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani (even if I disagree with his arguments) > who is >> firm in his belief that J&K as Muslim Majority 'territory' > should >> be a part of Pakistan. >>> >>> I am sure you did not mean to equate the situations but I found it > strange >> that you mentioned in the same breath the "peaceful... victory > rally" >> starting from Hazratbal with "siege of Hazrat Bal in the early > '90s or >> for that matter the siege of Charar e-Sharif in '95 or >>> for that matter the Golden Temple in the '80s". >>> >>> In all three 'siege' mentioned, there were bands of armed >> terrorists holed up inside the three religious places. Some might choose > to >> call them 'freedom fighters' or "Mujahideen". >>> >>> Kshmendra >>> >>> >>> >>> --- On Sat, 7/5/08, S. Jabbar wrote: >>> >>> From: S. Jabbar >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among > 14 >> injured >>> To: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् " >> , "sarai list" >> >>> Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 1:07 PM >>> >>> I think you may want to ask why it was necessary to begin a victory > rally >>> from a religious place and how any of us would have reacted if Advani > were >>> to embark on another 'victory' rally from Somnath or Ayodhya. >> These >>> so-called victory rallies will only add fuel to the Jammu-Kashmir/ >>> Hindu-Muslim conflagration. >>> >>> Hazrat Bal and the Jama Masjid are not neutral sites and have been >>> politically charged ever since the 1930s when the Quit Kashmir > movement >> was >>> launched against the Maharaja. What must have started off as an > equally >>> 'peaceful' gathering turned violent and a man was killed. > That >> was >>> reason >>> enough for mass rioting. You may be aware of the siege of Hazrat Bal > in >> the >>> early '90s or for that matter the siege of Charar e-Sharif in > '95 >> or >>> for >>> that matter the Golden Temple in the '80s. >>> >>> The Hurriyat is not unaware that the state cannot risk a religious > site >>> becoming another site of contestation. It would try and control what > in >> all >>> likelihood would turn into yet another communally charged and violent >> event. >>> And yet it decided to go ahead. The stakes are high and I really >> don't >>> think anyone is above using religion to further their political ends. >>> --sj >>> >>> >>> On 7/5/08 12:43 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् > विज्" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> This is what happens when you prevent people from addressing >>>> peaceful >>> gatherings... >>> >>> >>> o o o o >>> >>> >>> Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among >>>> 14 injured >>> >>> Special Correspondent, 5 July >>>> 2008 >>> http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/05/stories/2008070559931300.htm >>> >>> The clash >>>> followed prayers to celebrate the "victory" in the land >> transfer >>>> issue >>> >>> >>> SRINAGAR: Senior Hurriyat Conference leader Shabir Shah was among >>>> 14 >>> people injured on Friday, following a scuffle between police and >>> supporters >>>> of separatist leaders after they offered prayers at the >>> Hazratbal shrine to >>>> celebrate the recent "victory" in the land >>> transfer issue. >>> >>> The call for >>>> "Hazratbal Chalo" was given by Syed Ali Geelani, head of >>> a faction of the >>>> Hurriyat Conference and supported by Mirwaiz Umar >>> Farooq, head of another. >>>> However, both were placed under house arrest >>> by the police. Mr. Shah and other >>>> leaders, however, reached Hazratbal >>> amid heavy deployment of police and >>>> paramilitary CRPF and offered >>> prayers besides addressing the people. >>> >>> Mr. Shah >>>> and Ashraf Sehrai, another senior leader denounced the >>> government for putting >>>> Mr. Geelani and Mr. Mirwaiz under house arrest. >>> >>> A protester hurls back a tear >>>> smoke shell towards the police. >>> >>> On their way back, Mr. Shabir Shah, Mr. >>>> Sehrai, Naeem Khan, Sheikh >>> Aziz, Shafi Reshi, Firdous Shah and others led a >>>> strong procession, >>> which was lathi-charged. >>> >>> Fourteen people, including Mr. >>>> Shabir Shah, were injured. He was >>> shifted to the S.K. Institute of Medical >>>> Sciences (SKIMS) for >>> treatment. >>> >>> Even as rumours spread that he was critical, >>>> Director SKIMS Abdul >>> Hamid Zargar told The Hindu that he was stable. Another >>>> procession >>> taken from Jamia Masjid and led by the head imam, was dispersed >>>> by >>> police with smoke shells. Many people were arrested. Another >>>> Hurriyat >>> leader Javed Mir was arrested when he tried to take out a >>>> procession >>> towards Hazratbal in Khanyar >>>> area. >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open >>>> discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To >>>> subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe >>> in >>>> the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >>> the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From parthaekka at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 17:29:49 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:29:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat In-Reply-To: References: <9c06aab30807030822v65264b07p88ebd5cc5073e451@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990807040236t59f8c6a3i60b18844fae371cf@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807071024m16b883a3w2505bd045ce6c441@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807080154h48a8f83eu6661ed8967b429af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990807080459o7a4c66ddo6779adf4529097c3@mail.gmail.com> Dear Radhikarajen, 1. From what I remember, one person from Doda died, so "citizens death" is a bit of an overstatement. You, as a journalist or ex-journalist, should be careful how you use your words, especially when disagreeing with another journalist. 2. You talk of issues like 'journalist' and 'citizenship' in two breathless paragaraphs, and that seems meaningless. Were I to be a journalist, would strive to spread the news of what I believe to be the truth irrespective of what state / caste / religion I come from. Similarly, as a citizen, strive to agree with what I believe is correct and disagree with what I believe is wrong even if the Government of the day may have proclaimed it as correct. 3. As for birth, was born out of India, so my 'citizenship' is not linked to my place of birth. It is because I believe this is my country. Then again, an aunt of mine who happens to be a Russian by birth speaks Bengali far more fluently than I do and remembers the verses of some puja's we do in the family by heart. Or do we look at the People of Indian Origin diaspora who live abroad, and still insist on speaking Hindi. Shouldn't they be speaking only English in the US since they are claiming citizenship and follow the religion of that country? Citizenship, or any other title for that matter should never take over our belief in right or wrong. That's just as bad as voting for someone because of their caste. 4. I do hope that you are glad that a qualification level has been set for Journalism as in other professions. I'm sure that we both agree that it's a position of responsibility and that people who undertake the profession should go through a qualification process. Then again, there are many small publications that lets just about anyone write for them, so a degree / diploma in mass communication is not really necessary. Rgds, Partha ...................................................................... On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 4:15 PM, wrote: > Pawan, > > to be a "journalist" today all that you need is a degree and a diploma in mass communications, and ofcourse right connections, no need of verification of facts available to you before you post the news, propagate the thoughts, you need not have any ethics and morals as long as your kitty is full of sponsors of any denomination to propagate their views as gospel new truth.! > > Otherwise this Shivam would not have missed the truth of citizens death in jammu injuries of citizens on protets.! That apart, when it comes to even identity of a citizen with respect to his state of birth, be it kashmir or kanyakumari, there are 30 states and citizens in all those states, and these citizens have their pride in being the Karnataka, Maharashtra or tamilnadu or Kashmir, but being Indian is the overiding factor, which unfortunately these neo breed of journalists do not seem to comprehend.? > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Pawan Durani > Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 2:25 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat > To: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > Cc: sarai list > >> Shivam , >> >> If you believe non has died in Jammu , you are mistaken ....I >> understand the >> kind of information you may be getting in Kashmir . >> >> God Bless you .. >> >> >> On 7/7/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> > >> > > you are not in public life....Shivam is . He is a journalist >> who creates >> > > public opinions. >> > >> > Partha is just as much in public life as me, I humbly submit, >> because> he is using this list to influence public opinion. So >> don't target me >> > by way of my profession. I am not on this list by virtue of my >> > profession and am not engaging on that count. So please stop these >> > below-the-belt attacks. >> > >> > > Lastly ......what made Ghulam Nabi Azaad impose curfew in >> Jammu , while >> > as >> > > Kashmir was let loose.. >> > >> > Good question. And another one: what made the CRPF kill six in the >> > Kashmir protests, but not one has died in Jammu? >> > >> > best >> > shivam >> > >> > >> > On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 3:18 PM, Pawan Durani >> > wrote: >> > > Partha , >> > > >> > > you are not in public life....Shivam is . He is a journalist >> who creates >> > > public opinions. >> > > >> > > That makes a difference. >> > > >> > > Lastly ......what made Ghulam Nabi Azaad impose curfew in >> Jammu , while >> > as >> > > Kashmir was let loose.. >> > > >> > > Pawan >> > > >> > > >> > > On 7/4/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: >> > >> >> > >> Dear Radhikarajen, >> > >> >> > >> 1. I have friends, some of whom are Muslims. When I make >> friends, I >> > >> look at whether >> > >> or not I like them and if I can vibe with them. There >> caste / >> > >> relegion or even lack >> > >> thereof is irrelevant to me. >> > >> >> > >> 2. I stay in my own house and eat my own food. Though I do >> travel to >> > >> my friends house >> > >> and eat there as well. >> > >> >> > >> Does this mean that my body or mind is being held hostage? >> > >> >> > >> That logic is ridiculous. If you disagree with any statement or >> > >> position that someone has taken, go ahead and disagree. >> > >> >> > >> However, none of us have super powers to be able to read >> anyone's mind >> > >> and know why they are saying what - unless you're going to >> claim you >> > >> do? >> > >> >> > >> Rgds, Partha >> > >> .................................................. >> > >> >> > >> On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 12:57 PM, wrote: >> > >> > Hi, Shivam, >> > >> > >> > >> > who is financing your stay in Srinagar, it looks like >> you are >> > being >> > >> held hostage with good food and your thoughts are that of a >> hostage> talking >> > >> good about his kidnappers.! By the way I hope you are guest >> of Gulam >> > nabi or >> > >> Mufti as both are known spin doctors who use the bakras like >> you.?> >> > >> > >> > Regards. >> > >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > >> > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् >> > >> > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:53 pm >> > >> > Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial >> in Etalaat >> > >> > To: sarai list >> > >> > >> > >> >> Tolerant Kashmiris >> > >> >> 26 June, 2008 08:10:48 >> > >> >> http://www.etalaat.net/english/viewpoint/editorial/1111.html >> > >> >> >> > >> >> Vested interests are all out to communalize the on-going >> agitation> >> >> against transfer of forest land to the Amarnath >> Shrine Board. Time >> > and >> > >> >> again it has been made clear that the on-going agitation >> is not >> > >> >> against the Yatra or the Yatries. The agitation is against >> > >> >> politicization of the Yatra. Kashmiris want the government >> to entrust >> > >> >> the job of conducting and facilitating Yatra to the local >> people who >> > >> >> have been conducting it effectively since 1860. >> > >> >> >> > >> >> To understand the on-going agitation against land transfer >> in its >> > >> >> right perspectives one has to look into the history of >> Kashmir.When> >> >> important decisions concerning the future of >> Kashmir were taken >> > >> >> Kashmiris were always ignored. In 1947 a decision was >> imposed on the >> > >> >> reluctant people and since then the trend continues. In >> early 60s the >> > >> >> government of India omitted Article 238 from Indian >> constitution and >> > >> >> thus rendered article 370 infructious. The Article 370 which >> > >> >> guarantees a special status to the state of Jammu Kashmir >> reads: "Not >> > >> >> withstanding any thing nothing in Article 238 shall apply >> to the >> > state >> > >> >> of Jammu Kashmir." Article 370 is still there but article >> 238 which >> > >> >> contained the heart and soul of 370 is not there in the >> constitution.> >> >> Kashmiris to this day do not know about this >> fraud.> >> >> >> > >> >> Similarly the government of India abolished the permit >> system which >> > >> >> required the non-state subjects to obtain a permit for >> entering the >> > >> >> state. Again the people were not taken into confidence. >> In 1975 a >> > >> >> popular movement was strangled. Again the people did not >> protest. In >> > >> >> 1978 the draconian public safety act (PSA) was framed. >> People did not >> > >> >> protest. In 1984 TADA was extended to the state. People >> remained> >> >> silent. The Gulmarg issue shook them and the >> transfer of land did the >> > >> >> miracle. Even this time the government had taken the >> people for >> > >> >> granted. >> > >> >> >> > >> >> People are angry but they have not thrown caution to the >> winds. They >> > >> >> have upheld the high traditions of tolerance and have not >> harmed any >> > >> >> Yatri or a tourist. This is exactly what Islam teaches >> them. The >> > >> >> Yatries are welcome and so are the tourists. Kashmiris are >> known for >> > >> >> their hospitality and they will not disappoint the >> pilgrims and other >> > >> >> guests. >> > >> >> >> > >> >> History is witness to the fact that Kashmiris have always >> protected> >> >> their non-Muslim brethren. Hundreds of instances >> can be quoted to >> > >> >> prove the point. However, the following incident shall >> suffice. A >> > >> >> person who retired as the Chief Conservator of Forests >> lived in >> > >> >> Shahr-e-Khaas during his college days. One day while on >> his way to >> > the >> > >> >> college he was intercepted by a crowd. Taken for a Bakra >> (A supporter >> > >> >> of Mirwaiz Yusuf Shah) he was given sound thrashing. >> Somehow he ran >> > >> >> away but only to be caught by another violent group. This >> time he was >> > >> >> taken for a Sher (Supporter of Sheikh Abdullah) and beaten >> to pulp. >> > >> >> Again he managed his escape. When caught for the third >> time, he >> > >> >> shouted: "I am a Pandit." Nobody touched him this time. He >> was given >> > >> >> safe passage. >> > >> >> _________________________________________ >> > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- >> request at sarai.net with >> > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > >> >> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> > >> >> list >> > >> >> List archive: >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- >> request at sarai.net with >> > >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > >> > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> > List archive: >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> -- >> > >> Partha Dasgupta >> > >> +919811047132 >> > >> _________________________________________ >> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >> Critiques & Collaborations >> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > >> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> List archive: >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> list> > List archive: >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From delhi.yunus at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 17:46:28 2008 From: delhi.yunus at gmail.com (Syed Yunus) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:46:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat In-Reply-To: References: <9c06aab30807030822v65264b07p88ebd5cc5073e451@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990807040236t59f8c6a3i60b18844fae371cf@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807071024m16b883a3w2505bd045ce6c441@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807080154h48a8f83eu6661ed8967b429af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Radhika Rajen, Please do give the news from jammu, i will be thankful & so would be other list members following the debate. Second, I don't get your point why one can't be proud of being a maharashtrian, or kashmiri along with the proud of being Indian. all these are identy layers, so where is the conflict?? for instance,I'm proud to be a delhite, proud to be an Indian & proud to be a Muslim, Similary loving ones origin, culture, or group or association does not necessarily means hate other culture, groups etc. To me this is the thin line that differentiate between a patriotic and an ethnocentric person. Carry on with your writings. Best, Yunus On 7/8/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > Pawan, > > to be a "journalist" today all that you need is a degree and a diploma in > mass communications, and ofcourse right connections, no need of verification > of facts available to you before you post the news, propagate the thoughts, > you need not have any ethics and morals as long as your kitty is full of > sponsors of any denomination to propagate their views as gospel new truth.! > > Otherwise this Shivam would not have missed the truth of citizens death in > jammu injuries of citizens on protets.! That apart, when it comes to even > identity of a citizen with respect to his state of birth, be it kashmir or > kanyakumari, there are 30 states and citizens in all those states, and these > citizens have their pride in being the Karnataka, Maharashtra or tamilnadu > or Kashmir, but being Indian is the overiding factor, which unfortunately > these neo breed of journalists do not seem to comprehend.? > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Pawan Durani > Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 2:25 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat > To: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > Cc: sarai list > > > Shivam , > > > > If you believe non has died in Jammu , you are mistaken ....I > > understand the > > kind of information you may be getting in Kashmir . > > > > God Bless you .. > > > > > > On 7/7/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > > > > > > you are not in public life....Shivam is . He is a journalist > > who creates > > > > public opinions. > > > > > > Partha is just as much in public life as me, I humbly submit, > > because> he is using this list to influence public opinion. So > > don't target me > > > by way of my profession. I am not on this list by virtue of my > > > profession and am not engaging on that count. So please stop these > > > below-the-belt attacks. > > > > > > > Lastly ......what made Ghulam Nabi Azaad impose curfew in > > Jammu , while > > > as > > > > Kashmir was let loose.. > > > > > > Good question. And another one: what made the CRPF kill six in the > > > Kashmir protests, but not one has died in Jammu? > > > > > > best > > > shivam > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 3:18 PM, Pawan Durani > > > wrote: > > > > Partha , > > > > > > > > you are not in public life....Shivam is . He is a journalist > > who creates > > > > public opinions. > > > > > > > > That makes a difference. > > > > > > > > Lastly ......what made Ghulam Nabi Azaad impose curfew in > > Jammu , while > > > as > > > > Kashmir was let loose.. > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/4/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > >> > > > >> Dear Radhikarajen, > > > >> > > > >> 1. I have friends, some of whom are Muslims. When I make > > friends, I > > > >> look at whether > > > >> or not I like them and if I can vibe with them. There > > caste / > > > >> relegion or even lack > > > >> thereof is irrelevant to me. > > > >> > > > >> 2. I stay in my own house and eat my own food. Though I do > > travel to > > > >> my friends house > > > >> and eat there as well. > > > >> > > > >> Does this mean that my body or mind is being held hostage? > > > >> > > > >> That logic is ridiculous. If you disagree with any statement or > > > >> position that someone has taken, go ahead and disagree. > > > >> > > > >> However, none of us have super powers to be able to read > > anyone's mind > > > >> and know why they are saying what - unless you're going to > > claim you > > > >> do? > > > >> > > > >> Rgds, Partha > > > >> .................................................. > > > >> > > > >> On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 12:57 PM, wrote: > > > >> > Hi, Shivam, > > > >> > > > > >> > who is financing your stay in Srinagar, it looks like > > you are > > > being > > > >> held hostage with good food and your thoughts are that of a > > hostage> talking > > > >> good about his kidnappers.! By the way I hope you are guest > > of Gulam > > > nabi or > > > >> Mufti as both are known spin doctors who use the bakras like > > you.?> >> > > > > >> > Regards. > > > >> > > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > > >> > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > > > >> > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:53 pm > > > >> > Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial > > in Etalaat > > > >> > To: sarai list > > > >> > > > > >> >> Tolerant Kashmiris > > > >> >> 26 June, 2008 08:10:48 > > > >> >> http://www.etalaat.net/english/viewpoint/editorial/1111.html > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Vested interests are all out to communalize the on-going > > agitation> >> >> against transfer of forest land to the Amarnath > > Shrine Board. Time > > > and > > > >> >> again it has been made clear that the on-going agitation > > is not > > > >> >> against the Yatra or the Yatries. The agitation is against > > > >> >> politicization of the Yatra. Kashmiris want the government > > to entrust > > > >> >> the job of conducting and facilitating Yatra to the local > > people who > > > >> >> have been conducting it effectively since 1860. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> To understand the on-going agitation against land transfer > > in its > > > >> >> right perspectives one has to look into the history of > > Kashmir.When> >> >> important decisions concerning the future of > > Kashmir were taken > > > >> >> Kashmiris were always ignored. In 1947 a decision was > > imposed on the > > > >> >> reluctant people and since then the trend continues. In > > early 60s the > > > >> >> government of India omitted Article 238 from Indian > > constitution and > > > >> >> thus rendered article 370 infructious. The Article 370 which > > > >> >> guarantees a special status to the state of Jammu Kashmir > > reads: "Not > > > >> >> withstanding any thing nothing in Article 238 shall apply > > to the > > > state > > > >> >> of Jammu Kashmir." Article 370 is still there but article > > 238 which > > > >> >> contained the heart and soul of 370 is not there in the > > constitution.> >> >> Kashmiris to this day do not know about this > > fraud.> >> >> > > > >> >> Similarly the government of India abolished the permit > > system which > > > >> >> required the non-state subjects to obtain a permit for > > entering the > > > >> >> state. Again the people were not taken into confidence. > > In 1975 a > > > >> >> popular movement was strangled. Again the people did not > > protest. In > > > >> >> 1978 the draconian public safety act (PSA) was framed. > > People did not > > > >> >> protest. In 1984 TADA was extended to the state. People > > remained> >> >> silent. The Gulmarg issue shook them and the > > transfer of land did the > > > >> >> miracle. Even this time the government had taken the > > people for > > > >> >> granted. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> People are angry but they have not thrown caution to the > > winds. They > > > >> >> have upheld the high traditions of tolerance and have not > > harmed any > > > >> >> Yatri or a tourist. This is exactly what Islam teaches > > them. The > > > >> >> Yatries are welcome and so are the tourists. Kashmiris are > > known for > > > >> >> their hospitality and they will not disappoint the > > pilgrims and other > > > >> >> guests. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> History is witness to the fact that Kashmiris have always > > protected> >> >> their non-Muslim brethren. Hundreds of instances > > can be quoted to > > > >> >> prove the point. However, the following incident shall > > suffice. A > > > >> >> person who retired as the Chief Conservator of Forests > > lived in > > > >> >> Shahr-e-Khaas during his college days. One day while on > > his way to > > > the > > > >> >> college he was intercepted by a crowd. Taken for a Bakra > > (A supporter > > > >> >> of Mirwaiz Yusuf Shah) he was given sound thrashing. > > Somehow he ran > > > >> >> away but only to be caught by another violent group. This > > time he was > > > >> >> taken for a Sher (Supporter of Sheikh Abdullah) and beaten > > to pulp. > > > >> >> Again he managed his escape. When caught for the third > > time, he > > > >> >> shouted: "I am a Pandit." Nobody touched him this time. He > > was given > > > >> >> safe passage. > > > >> >> _________________________________________ > > > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > > request at sarai.net with > > > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > >> >> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > >> >> list > > > >> >> List archive: > > > >> > _________________________________________ > > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > > request at sarai.net with > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > >> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> > List archive: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> Partha Dasgupta > > > >> +919811047132 > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > >> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list> > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Change is the only constant in life ! From anansi1 at earthlink.net Tue Jul 8 18:14:01 2008 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul Miller) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:44:01 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Soviet Antarctica: Ice, Ice, baby... Message-ID: <21C5B0DD-4FCC-4B18-A47F-AD7D3E9AE1F0@earthlink.net> Earlier this year, I went to Antarctica for several weeks to shoot a film about the sound of ice. One of the things I noticed first and foremost, is how much the different nation states had "scripted" their territorial competitions in Europe into claims onto what is essentially a moving and ever transforming landscape. For me, Antartica's ice was a perfect metaphor for today's contemporary geo- political flux. In the course of doing more research for the project, I found some extremely rare Soviet footage that will be included in my film. It's footage from the Soviet Antarctic Expedition of 1955. I decided to incorporate the film into my film (I work by sampling, after all), and remixed the subtitles to show a "post-modern" ironic take on the way the European nation states scripted their research in colonial terms - the most outrageous being Nazi Germany's "Neuschwabenland" aka "New Swabia" where Third Reich pilots dropped Nazi flags as territorial markers over Antarctica to claim the ice in 1938-1939. Here goes: it's going to be in the style of a silent movie - we have weird footage of the first Soviet expedition, and it will be a kind of science fiction type intermission in the middle of my film - very "propaganda" a la Stanislav Lem's Solaris or Boris and Arkady Strugatsky - two of the Soviet Union's top science fiction writers. By the way, all of the text below will be translated into old school Soviet propaganda fonts for the film. The trailer for my film is at: http://www.djspooky.com/art/terra_nova.php Paul aka Dj Spooky Terra Nova - A Film By Paul D. Miller aka Dj Spooky = = ======================================================================== A montage of silent film tray cards reads as follows in the film script: Scientific Revolution in Antarctica!!! The Soviet Union Leads the way!!! In the grand tradition of The People's Quest for Revolutionary Struggle, the Supreme Soviet reviews plans for an Antarctic Expedition to further progress human understanding of the polar regions of the world. On the eve of the International Geophysical Year (IGY) in 1955, the First Soviet (Complex Antarctic Expedition of the USSR Academy of Science) started its way to the coasts of the frozen continent. The Academy of Science and the Ministry of Marine Fleet of the USSR addressed the Government with the suggestion to organize the Expedition. General administrative duties were placed on the Presidium of the USSR Academy of Science: the institution that supervised the Arctic and Antarctic Research Institute and was known to have accumulated vast experience in the Arctic studies. The spectacle of science leads to a propaganda war for the moon, the stars, and after Sputnik, control of the resources of the last place on earth with no government: Antarctica. The spectacle precedes the expedition. At the Antarctic Conference in Brussels in 1955, the Soviet delegation an nounced about the intention to build the main base in the coastal section from 85 E to 105 E and establish research stations at the South geomagnetic Pole and at the Pole of relative Inaccessibility. The magnetic pole is a moving fiction scripted on the blank surface of the ice. It moves every year, and becomes a beacon that can never be attained. The geomagnetic pole is one more scientific fiction made into a tool to create more land claims for the Great Nations. To bring science to the Antarctic lands, the Presidium of of the USSR Academy of Science created a research plan to study the effect of electromagetism in the polar regions. For that time, the Soviet plan seemed to be almost fantastic. The site of location of the South geomagnetic Pole and the Pole of relative Inaccessibility was a myste rious «white spot» for the explorers. The participation of the Soviet Union and the suggested plans immediately gave value to the Antarctic research operations. The nation state is a fiction to be mapped onto the blank space of the ice. The main objective of the first expedition was to build the base and the basic geophysical observatory at the Antarctic coast. Among the other tasks was general geographical study of the areas of supposed operations and organization of perma nent observations in the observatory. Three vessels were assigned for transportation of the expedition – two similar diesel-electric ships «Ob» and «Lena» with displacement 12600 t., cargo capacity 4500 t. and rated power 8200 h.p. each; the third vessel «Refrigerator No.7» with displacement 2200 t was intended only for delivery of perishable provision to the coastal base. The port of expedition departure, Kaliningrad received supplies and equipment arriving by trains from all the parts of the Soviet Union. All the country took part in preparation and fitting out the expedition. The cargoes arrived up to the very last moment of the vessels’ departure. On November 30, 1955 the first vessel – flag-ship «Ob» left the port of Kalinin grad carrying onboard 127 expedition members, 75 crew members and 3782 tons of expedition cargo, including two airplanes LI-2, one AN-2 and helicopter MI-4. The First Complex Antarctic Expedition of the USSR Academy of Science was headed by Dr. Mikhail Somov, Doctor in Geography, Hero of the Soviet Union, AARI scientist- explorer of Central Arctic. The aviation detachment of the First CAE was equipped with 4 planes and 2 heli copters; the land detachment- with 13 caterpillar tractors C-80 and bulldozers, 4 cater pillar cross-country vehicles GAZ-47, 10 trucks with the bodies specially fit out to carry the expedition radio stations, repair shops, portable electric plants, as well as car GAZ-69. Besides, the expedition members brought along the sledge and 50 husky dogs. On January 5, 1956 the diesel-electric ship «Ob» approached the Antarctic coasts and moored at the narrow fast ice strip of the Farr Bay. Soviet people touched the Antarctic continent for the first time. A site for foundation of the first Soviet research station was found. The next day unloading operations were started. Unloading from was going on several days in terrupted with frequent storms, fracturing of fast ice and snow roads to the barrier. Ceremonial inauguration of the first Soviet observatory on the Antarctic coast under the name of «Mirny» took place. Starting from the date of inauguration, regular meteorological observations and transmission of weather forecasts have been carried out continuously up to now. Other types of scientific observations – geomorphological, geothermal, aerologi cal, geomagnetic were also carried out at the «Mirny» observatory. Ship-based expedition headed by leaves Mirny in order to fulfil oceanographic survey along the eastern coast of the Antarctica up to Balleny islands. A few words about the first (in the history of Soviet research in the Antarctica) continental march that left the base Mirny . The program of the work on the march included meteorological, aerological, magnetic, glaciological and geomorphological observations, seismic measurements of glacier cover thickness. The route of the first convoy was laid in the directions where the continental bases Vostok and Sovetskaya would be founded in the future. The march was fulfilled in extremely severe conditions. The convoy was able to cover only 10 km in the first day going up all the time in deep and loose snow. Heavy sledge with fuel tanks in some cases had to be pulled out by two tractors. During the next year 1957, several sledge-tractor convoys were fulfilled using the new ten trucks that were delivered to the Antarctica by 2 CAE. The expedition fulfilled, as a rule, seismic sounding of ice cover, measurement of height values, magnetic, gravimetric, meteorological observations and glaciological studies. By the end of the year, the expedition reached the area of geomagnetic pole where the Vostok station was founded. The station is working up to now, with small intervals. The Russian people, by organizing expeditions to the Arctic and Antarctic areas, contributed the information and data so valuable for the science, that no other nation had ever contributed. All victory to the people's revolutionary struggle for new land, in a new world! The nation state is a fiction to be mapped onto the blank space of the ice. The ice is a physical clock, it moves at a geological tempo to a rhythm made of human fictions. We write the script, and it in turn, writes us. Meteorological, aerological, magnetic, glaciological and geomorphological observations, seismic measurements of glacier cover thickness - all become tools in the game of land claims. All victory to the people's revolutionary struggle for new land, in a new world! From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 19:26:10 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 19:26:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat In-Reply-To: References: <9c06aab30807030822v65264b07p88ebd5cc5073e451@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990807040236t59f8c6a3i60b18844fae371cf@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807071024m16b883a3w2505bd045ce6c441@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807080154h48a8f83eu6661ed8967b429af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807080656mfce445fh738f4a7c349ceb00@mail.gmail.com> Syed , Incase you are blocked to google Jammu of your own , pls click on http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&tab=wn&ned=us&q=jammu+violence this may give you some news . Pawan On 7/8/08, Syed Yunus wrote: > > Dear Radhika Rajen, > > Please do give the news from jammu, i will be thankful & so would be other > list members following the debate. > > Second, I don't get your point why one can't be proud of being a > maharashtrian, or kashmiri along with the proud of being Indian. all these > are identy layers, so where is the conflict?? for instance,I'm proud to be a > delhite, proud to be an Indian & proud to be a Muslim, > > Similary loving ones origin, culture, or group or association does not > necessarily means hate other culture, groups etc. > > To me this is the thin line that differentiate between a patriotic and an > ethnocentric person. > > Carry on with your writings. > > Best, > > Yunus > > > > On 7/8/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: >> >> Pawan, >> >> to be a "journalist" today all that you need is a degree and a diploma >> in mass communications, and ofcourse right connections, no need of >> verification of facts available to you before you post the news, propagate >> the thoughts, you need not have any ethics and morals as long as your kitty >> is full of sponsors of any denomination to propagate their views as gospel >> new truth.! >> >> Otherwise this Shivam would not have missed the truth of citizens death in >> jammu injuries of citizens on protets.! That apart, when it comes to even >> identity of a citizen with respect to his state of birth, be it kashmir or >> kanyakumari, there are 30 states and citizens in all those states, and these >> citizens have their pride in being the Karnataka, Maharashtra or tamilnadu >> or Kashmir, but being Indian is the overiding factor, which unfortunately >> these neo breed of journalists do not seem to comprehend.? >> >> Regards. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Pawan Durani >> Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 2:25 pm >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial in Etalaat >> To: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् >> Cc: sarai list >> >> > Shivam , >> > >> > If you believe non has died in Jammu , you are mistaken ....I >> > understand the >> > kind of information you may be getting in Kashmir . >> > >> > God Bless you .. >> > >> > >> > On 7/7/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> > > >> > > > you are not in public life....Shivam is . He is a journalist >> > who creates >> > > > public opinions. >> > > >> > > Partha is just as much in public life as me, I humbly submit, >> > because> he is using this list to influence public opinion. So >> > don't target me >> > > by way of my profession. I am not on this list by virtue of my >> > > profession and am not engaging on that count. So please stop these >> > > below-the-belt attacks. >> > > >> > > > Lastly ......what made Ghulam Nabi Azaad impose curfew in >> > Jammu , while >> > > as >> > > > Kashmir was let loose.. >> > > >> > > Good question. And another one: what made the CRPF kill six in the >> > > Kashmir protests, but not one has died in Jammu? >> > > >> > > best >> > > shivam >> > > >> > > >> > > On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 3:18 PM, Pawan Durani >> > > wrote: >> > > > Partha , >> > > > >> > > > you are not in public life....Shivam is . He is a journalist >> > who creates >> > > > public opinions. >> > > > >> > > > That makes a difference. >> > > > >> > > > Lastly ......what made Ghulam Nabi Azaad impose curfew in >> > Jammu , while >> > > as >> > > > Kashmir was let loose.. >> > > > >> > > > Pawan >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > On 7/4/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: >> > > >> >> > > >> Dear Radhikarajen, >> > > >> >> > > >> 1. I have friends, some of whom are Muslims. When I make >> > friends, I >> > > >> look at whether >> > > >> or not I like them and if I can vibe with them. There >> > caste / >> > > >> relegion or even lack >> > > >> thereof is irrelevant to me. >> > > >> >> > > >> 2. I stay in my own house and eat my own food. Though I do >> > travel to >> > > >> my friends house >> > > >> and eat there as well. >> > > >> >> > > >> Does this mean that my body or mind is being held hostage? >> > > >> >> > > >> That logic is ridiculous. If you disagree with any statement or >> > > >> position that someone has taken, go ahead and disagree. >> > > >> >> > > >> However, none of us have super powers to be able to read >> > anyone's mind >> > > >> and know why they are saying what - unless you're going to >> > claim you >> > > >> do? >> > > >> >> > > >> Rgds, Partha >> > > >> .................................................. >> > > >> >> > > >> On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 12:57 PM, wrote: >> > > >> > Hi, Shivam, >> > > >> > >> > > >> > who is financing your stay in Srinagar, it looks like >> > you are >> > > being >> > > >> held hostage with good food and your thoughts are that of a >> > hostage> talking >> > > >> good about his kidnappers.! By the way I hope you are guest >> > of Gulam >> > > nabi or >> > > >> Mufti as both are known spin doctors who use the bakras like >> > you.?> >> > >> > > >> > Regards. >> > > >> > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > >> > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् >> > > >> > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:53 pm >> > > >> > Subject: [Reader-list] 'Tolerant Kashmiris': An editorial >> > in Etalaat >> > > >> > To: sarai list >> > > >> > >> > > >> >> Tolerant Kashmiris >> > > >> >> 26 June, 2008 08:10:48 >> > > >> >> http://www.etalaat.net/english/viewpoint/editorial/1111.html >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> Vested interests are all out to communalize the on-going >> > agitation> >> >> against transfer of forest land to the Amarnath >> > Shrine Board. Time >> > > and >> > > >> >> again it has been made clear that the on-going agitation >> > is not >> > > >> >> against the Yatra or the Yatries. The agitation is against >> > > >> >> politicization of the Yatra. Kashmiris want the government >> > to entrust >> > > >> >> the job of conducting and facilitating Yatra to the local >> > people who >> > > >> >> have been conducting it effectively since 1860. >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> To understand the on-going agitation against land transfer >> > in its >> > > >> >> right perspectives one has to look into the history of >> > Kashmir.When> >> >> important decisions concerning the future of >> > Kashmir were taken >> > > >> >> Kashmiris were always ignored. In 1947 a decision was >> > imposed on the >> > > >> >> reluctant people and since then the trend continues. In >> > early 60s the >> > > >> >> government of India omitted Article 238 from Indian >> > constitution and >> > > >> >> thus rendered article 370 infructious. The Article 370 which >> > > >> >> guarantees a special status to the state of Jammu Kashmir >> > reads: "Not >> > > >> >> withstanding any thing nothing in Article 238 shall apply >> > to the >> > > state >> > > >> >> of Jammu Kashmir." Article 370 is still there but article >> > 238 which >> > > >> >> contained the heart and soul of 370 is not there in the >> > constitution.> >> >> Kashmiris to this day do not know about this >> > fraud.> >> >> >> > > >> >> Similarly the government of India abolished the permit >> > system which >> > > >> >> required the non-state subjects to obtain a permit for >> > entering the >> > > >> >> state. Again the people were not taken into confidence. >> > In 1975 a >> > > >> >> popular movement was strangled. Again the people did not >> > protest. In >> > > >> >> 1978 the draconian public safety act (PSA) was framed. >> > People did not >> > > >> >> protest. In 1984 TADA was extended to the state. People >> > remained> >> >> silent. The Gulmarg issue shook them and the >> > transfer of land did the >> > > >> >> miracle. Even this time the government had taken the >> > people for >> > > >> >> granted. >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> People are angry but they have not thrown caution to the >> > winds. They >> > > >> >> have upheld the high traditions of tolerance and have not >> > harmed any >> > > >> >> Yatri or a tourist. This is exactly what Islam teaches >> > them. The >> > > >> >> Yatries are welcome and so are the tourists. Kashmiris are >> > known for >> > > >> >> their hospitality and they will not disappoint the >> > pilgrims and other >> > > >> >> guests. >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> History is witness to the fact that Kashmiris have always >> > protected> >> >> their non-Muslim brethren. Hundreds of instances >> > can be quoted to >> > > >> >> prove the point. However, the following incident shall >> > suffice. A >> > > >> >> person who retired as the Chief Conservator of Forests >> > lived in >> > > >> >> Shahr-e-Khaas during his college days. One day while on >> > his way to >> > > the >> > > >> >> college he was intercepted by a crowd. Taken for a Bakra >> > (A supporter >> > > >> >> of Mirwaiz Yusuf Shah) he was given sound thrashing. >> > Somehow he ran >> > > >> >> away but only to be caught by another violent group. This >> > time he was >> > > >> >> taken for a Sher (Supporter of Sheikh Abdullah) and beaten >> > to pulp. >> > > >> >> Again he managed his escape. When caught for the third >> > time, he >> > > >> >> shouted: "I am a Pandit." Nobody touched him this time. He >> > was given >> > > >> >> safe passage. >> > > >> >> _________________________________________ >> > > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> > > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- >> > request at sarai.net with >> > > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > > >> >> To unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> > > >> >> list >> > > >> >> List archive: >> > > >> > _________________________________________ >> > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- >> > request at sarai.net with >> > > >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > > >> > To unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > >> > List archive: >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> -- >> > > >> Partha Dasgupta >> > > >> +919811047132 >> > > >> _________________________________________ >> > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > >> Critiques & Collaborations >> > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > > >> To unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > >> List archive: >> > > > _________________________________________ >> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> > list> > List archive: >> > > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> > list >> > List archive: >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > > Change is the only constant in life ! From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Tue Jul 8 20:25:07 2008 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 07:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured Message-ID: <989612.50161.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Inder, Your position of "not believing in nationalism" is typical of many on this list.I am not arguing for nationalism against anarchy. I do not think there is anything noble in being a nationalist \patriot. But I do realize the utilitarian value of the concept of nation.Anyhow, lets for a while assume that your idea of "not believing in the nationalism" is the way to go. What do you suppose we should do now? Organize an Indo-Pak concert where someone will sing "Imagine there's no country" or perhaps Sayonee by Junoon and then everyone will start hugging,kissing and dancing kumbaya with each other, halwa poori or nihari\paya will be distributed and all will go home and live happily ever after. Is that likely to happen? A while back,when I was making the argument that sovereign Kashmir is not a feasible state(for reasons that I had given earlier),the arguments I got in response was that I was not romantic enough,I had a diseased mind, Kashmir is too beautiful to stay occupied etc etc.. Then there was the usual "I dont believe in nationalism". Your dislike of nationalism may be the principle around which you frame your argument but THAT STATEMENT, BY ITSELF CAN NOT BE YOUR ARGUMENT.If you can build any realistic and pragmatic course of action around that principle then you should forward it.Just chanting this mantra of "not believing in nationalism",is neither here nor there and would make you irrelevant.Till the time that nation states are a reality you cant just ignore them or wish them away. Regards Rahul --- On Tue, 7/8/08, inder salim wrote: > From: inder salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:39 AM > dear kshmendra > > for now, all i want to say is that i am not for any kind of > nationalism.... i dont know what that will lead to, i think > it will be > perhpas better for humanity, if nation states disappear > suddenly and > enable people to move freely on this planet earth.... > > i have a dream, you may say it is utopian... so what. > > desire for nation is not bad, i have huge admiration for > people like > Bhagat Singh, but the the powers sturctures that cling on > the that > state in the name of democracy or people is fradulent. Now > dont tell > me that we helpless to not-to-see-the-other > > it is interesting to notice how people's simple faith > gets translated > into something necessary costly rituals... say prem > chand's Govdaan, > .. . i see misery for the innocent lot, and for that i have > every > right to undermine, a state, a religion or an > identiy....and once it > becomes a system that gnaws the dignity existential core > of human > being,..... i want to restore that > > one is free to remain glued to something as long as it > keeps on > milking other's cow. that is why i talked about morals > and ethics. > > now see, there is a great democracy in america and england > but when i > comes to their foreign affairs they looks barbarians.... > and i dont know how to admire their democratic systems > endlessly if > there is no change.... right now, everyting is stuck, > > just see, what their democracies did to afganistan and > iraq. i have > more respect for a poor afgani who > has no choice but to shoot alongwith a taliban commander > and work in > poppy fields in comparison to some one who is drinking beer > in new > york while criticizing muslim fundamentalism.... > > in that sense, i have nothing against politics, but against > the > polticians who are at the helm of affairs.....as jean paul > sartre says > that politics enters through all the pores of your > body,....and > realization of that sensitizes me, realization of that > reduces my > arrogance, and i think that is how i want to understand > politics, > > and that way i know what is the meaning of GAME in > politics.... now you that.... > > now religion, i believe, > the state has no business to enter the affairs of the > shrine.... why > on earth state should provide facilites to a piligrim... > a true piligrim has to be really prepared , both physically > and mentally.... > and above all, SHIVA i believe is about death also... you > might be > knowing, there is a mountain , just one stop before the > amarnath cave > which is called Bhairav Baal, and it was famous for real > piligirms to > climb it and jump on the other side of it....a true love of > shiva will > be quite educated and brave and should understand the > significance of > death and sprituality in one go... > > i still dont understand how a shiva lover can throw stones > at others, > or burn a tyre, if one goes by the kashmiri philisophy of > shivaism > well you are within your rights to call it politics, but i > see decadence in it > > at the best it is opportunism, and once it is so, it is > free for all, > > once we realize the absence of morals and ethics in our > political > acitivity, we are at the mercy of goons and the politicians > who love > to make a fool of each one of us. > > about disrespect, just show me one communtiy, at grass root > level, in > the world history which not suffered humiliation at the > hands of their > rulers. > that is why i am not interested in those who eulogise kings > and queens > for this or that.... people have suffered, even when a > great king was > constructing a Taj mahal or making a great wall in china, > same goes > for the construction of great temples and mosques.......i > see pain of > a human being in the form of an monument, beauty of it > comes next.... > > that way i see the possibity of a shift in histroy, that > way we can > see the emergence of a new politics, a new way of living, > beyond > mindsets and old designs , old territories.... > > my dear, that muse on the classical canvas died long > ago.... we are > finished with waste land even, we have come to a stage when > even > writing a poem is impossiblity.... > > politics is dead in that sense...the issue is ethics, > environment, and > my favourite word 'love' is kicking alive, > > with love and regards > is > > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > Dear Inder Salim > > > > You say "i know you know well what i am talking > about...." > > > > No Sir I do not. Either we are talking about different > things or it must be the limitations of my understanding. > > > > It must also be the limitations of my being able to > express myself that you read meanings other than what I > think I have placed in my words. > > > > - I ddear o not know what "GAMES" you are > talking about. If you explain them in simple words, I might > be able to comment > > > > - I spoke about "respect" for > "constancy" in "political positions". > That could or could not translate into "respect" > for the person. That also does not preclude the ones being > talked about being political adversaries or being enemies > of my country > > > > - Let me give another example. I see China as being > (if not an enemy these days) inimical towards India on many > fronts. Yet I have immense respect for China in many > spheres. > > > > - Let me give another example. I see Pakistan as > continuing to be an enemy of India. I have no respect for > (I have contempt for) Pakistan's shifts over Kashmir > especially in the context of it's duplicity with the > "Hurriyat Pasand". Yet there are things about and > from Pakistan I love. I love their Muslin and Men's > Shalvaar Kameez, I love Mehdi Hassan and Nayyara Noor and > Sabri Brothers, I love Faiz and Parveen Shakir and Amjad > Islam Amjad > > > > - Saw your list of those you respect. I have no > argument with you over that list. > > > > - You do not respect 'politicians'. For me > that is too generalised a statement. Maybe I would not > respect "some" or even "most" > politicians" but the political system is essential (in > my opinion) to any organised society. Irrespective of the > form of Government or quality of Governance, every country > has a political system. It has to have one. If there > isn't one, there will be anarchy. In the case of a > "democracy", the politician is of critical > importance to the citizen. The Constitution allows Laws, > Laws take shape from Legislation, Legislation is enacted by > Legislators, Legislators are Politicians. Every aspect of > the quality of life in India (for example) is directly or > indirectly affected on and effected by the Politicians. You > may be dismissive of Politicians if you want to be. For me > Politicians are extremely important entities to be > evaluated and sieved in one's judgement. > > > > - I am a firm believer that my final societal identity > is the Passport I hold or am eligible for. All Inter- Nation > interactions including those of their citizens are > conditional to the Laws of each country. Yes I am a firm > believer in 'nationalism'. I subscribe to Indian > Nationalism. You perhaps are more tuned (correct if I have > misheard the strains) into Kashmiri Nationalism. Only the > forces of Nature respect no National Boundaries. All other > aspects of our lives are linked to the country we belong to > (because the Laws of the country govern every other aspect > of our lives). Actually the Laws of a Country can even > interfere with the reign of Nature, which is when > Environmental Concerns take centre-stage. > > > > - Is the "Kashmir issue" about "Ethics > & Morals"? Perhaps it is to some degree in some > areas. I see it more as being about "Rights and > Responsibilities" and even more so as being > "Political" and about "Religion" > > > > - You speak about the Kashmiri "Muslims" > having been disrespected. I do not understand that > judgement. Perhaps you might elaborate on how the > "Muslims" of Kashmir have been > "disrespected". > > > > - You speak about the SASB affair having > "undermined the sensitivity of .... Muslims". > Again I do not understand how SASB affair is linked with > "Kashmiri Muslims". Unless of course you yourself > subscribe to the view that the SASB affair was one of > Muslims against Hindus. > > > > (By your pointed reference to "Muslims" you > seem to be in agreement with me that the "Kashmir > Issue" is about "Religion") > > > > - You speak about " 1990 disrespect to kashmiri > pandits" being about "ethics and morals". > Perhaps it is to some extent. I see it more as a Political > affair. I see it more as failure of governance (both at the > Centre and State) in having allowed a "fear > atmosphere" to develop. > > > > At least in this mail I see the point that you are > trying to make. Correct me if I understood wrongly. You > state that you "know" what you should > "respect" and seem to suggest I do not > "know". Fair enough. You are entitled to your > judgement. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 7/7/08, inder salim > wrote: > > > > From: inder salim > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; > Shabir Shah among 14 injured > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 7:00 PM > > > > Dear kshmendra > > > > i quote myself > > > > and once we are finished with these games.... only > then we can begin > > to talk about ETHICS and MORALS > > > > it is again your choice to ignore the most important > line of my last > > post... i dont feel insecure .... > > > > i know you know well what i am talking about.... > > > > now see, you take a position with regard to > 'Respect', > > you respect, i dont know whethere with capital R or > with small r, but > > u respect the politicians who are against the > occupation of indian > > foreces in kashmir.but strangely in the next line you > think that they > > are enemies of the indian state and you are Indian, > right . > > i > > on the contrary i dont respect a politican, ....... i > have respect for > > a poet, a musician, an ariist, a social worker a > simple worker, a job > > less man frustrated by the indiferent state. i respect > a poor man on > > the road side, i respect a tribalman who is contantly > being driven > > out of his ecology , > > > > i respect millions of landless people in india.... i > have respect for > > the womens rights, i repect you has a human being and > in that sense i > > respect a politician even. > > > > yes, i respect the morals and ethics, more than being > a nationalist > > merely as an identity tag....i respect rebels...... i > respect my > > teacher AK Mir who publically slapped Mufti Mohd Syed > in Bijbehara > > because he as a Congress pradesh president > masterminded 1986 communal > > riots.... i respect a petty theif who threw shit on > the judge in delhi > > because he was languishing in the jail and could not > afford to bail > > himself out. > > > > i have respect for the courage.... and similarly i > have respect for > > those who uphold their existential beings wheenver the > state or the > > power structures openly supress and disrespects the > ethics and morals > > of the other.... > > > > that is why kashmir issue is about ethics and morals > as well..... > > > > that is why the land transter to shrine board > undermined the > > sensitivity of the already disrespected kashmiri > muslims... > > > > that is why 1990 disrespect to kashmiri pandits is > also about ethics > > and morals as well.. > > > > i see human being through this prism of ethics and > morals ... i mix > > love with it and see some possiblity to heal the self > and the other at > > the same time..i may fail in the end because plolitics > is exercised > > quite ruthlessly in india and abroad.... but i dont > regret about my > > position. > > > > at least i know what i should respect > > > > with love > > inder salim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > > > wrote: > >> Dear Inder Salim > >> > >> I wish I had understood what point you were trying > to make. > >> > >> What I did notice is your quoting me partially and > out of context and then > > using that to put a spin on my words so that you could > indulge in innuendos and > > make judgements about me. > >> > >> I was talking of having respect for the > 'constant political > > position' of people whoever it may be. Geelani was > an example for the sake > > of comparing with (what I see as) hypocritical > declamations of the > > "moderate" Hurriyatis (especially Umar > Farooq) and their claims of > > their brand of the "Hurriyat" call being a > 'secular' one. It > > is called 'munaafaqat'. > >> > >> Just to explain it further, I similarly have > respect for the 'constant > > political position' of Yasin Malik in that he > wants (or used to want) the > > erstwhile princely State of Jammu & Kashmir to be > an Independent Country > > with it's territories freed from both Indian and > Pakistani control. Again I > > say this at the risk of being lynched by my KP > brethren. Yasin, in proclaiming > > his having eschewed violence was foolish enough to > admit that he (and/or JKLF) > > had previous to that indulged in 'killings' > >> > >> I disagree with both positions, of Geelani and > Yasin, but that does not > > stop me from acknowledging their constancy. > >> > >> Inder you talk about my 'positions' but > you obviously have no idea > > of what they are. You only presume. > >> > >> Anyone who seeks to disturb the peace in my > country India is for me an > > enemy of the nation. Anyone who seeks to break-up > India or bring in violent > > divides between it's people is for me an enemy of > India. They should be > > recognised as, dealt with and treated as enemies. > Before your make another > > presumption, the 'recognising', 'dealing > with' and > > 'treating' as enemies neither automatically > means nor is suggested by > > me should be done by repressive means or incarceration > or State Violence. > >> > >> The affiliations of these 'enemies' are of > no importance. They > > could be from Hurriyat Conference, or JKLF or RSS or > VHP or Bajrang Dal or SIMI > > or any other organisation. > >> > >> Kshmendra > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --- On Sun, 7/6/08, inder salim > wrote: > >> > >> From: inder salim > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; > Shabir Shah among 14 > > injured > >> To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 11:39 PM > >> > >> Dear Kshmendra > >> > >> I quote you, "but I have much more respect > for the constant political > >> position of someone like Hurriyati hardliner Syed > Ali Shah Geelani" > >> > >> just read your statment again and remember when > Syed Ali Shah Geelani > >> too said similar about RSS. He really dislkes > anything secular > >> because a religous stand is logical for both > Geelani sahib and for > >> RSS. anything else is ambigous > >> > >> now i quote you again, "It has amused me > more to see how easily the > >> likes of Umar Farooq, Prof Abdul Ghani Bhat, > Shabbir Shah (and other > >> Hurriyat 'moderates') are able to fool > people into buying their > >> 'secular' credentials" > >> > >> just remember when Atal Behari Vajpayee wrote a > poem about the sad > >> demolition of Babri Mosque...The words moistened > the eyes of the > >> naive, but we knew how crocodile weeps... you also > know it well > >> > >> now i know there are positions, well you are > within your rights to > >> hold one ... that is ok > >> > >> i just met a kashmiri pandit who was demonstrating > at jantar mantar > >> today.... and i sarcastically congratulated about > the news KASHSMIR > >> PANDITOON NAY TODFOD KI, ( riots by kashmir > pandits ) It is perhaps > >> for the first time i heard about such a news. He > understood and > >> replied quickly... " if we dont resort to > thes acts who will listen > > to > >> us, we are politically irrlevant in the present > political > >> situation.... we need to read these situations > quickly, and we do it > >> from time to time. " > >> > >> now see how their brother is the valley do the > same things for their > >> own survial. for example PDP, who need to > something from time to time > >> to stay in relevant in the volatite politcal games > being played in the > >> valley..... what is so wrong about it if > everything else is not. > >> > >> and once we are finished with these games.... only > then we can being > >> to talk about ETHICS and MORALS > >> > >> > >> till then best > >> > >> inder salim > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 12:27 AM, Kshmendra Kaul > > > >> wrote: > >>> Dear Sonia > >>> > >>> There is nothing surprising in the religious > place Hazrartbal being > > the > >> start-point for the 'victory' rally. It > only reinforces the > > evaluation > >> that the 'victory' was sought by one > religion over the other. For > > those > >> who achieved the 'victory', what better > place to start the > > celebration > >> than a Shrine/Mosque. > >>> > >>> Our 'secular' commentators may spout > various theories and > > analyses > >> but those who were a part of that > 'victory' were obviously honest > > about > >> what they had achieved and in the name of which > religion. > >>> > >>> Whether it has been the 1931 'bread > movement' or the intense > >> rivalry between the 'sher' (of Sheikh > Abdullah) and > > 'bakra' (of > >> Maulvi Farooq) or the Hurriyat > (freedom/separatist) movement, the pulpits > > of > >> both Hazratbal and Jama Masjid have been used as > much for political > >> speeches/sloganeering and calls for separatism as > they have been for > > religious > >> sermons. > >>> > >>> It has always amused me to see Umar Farooq (as > just one example among > >> others) indulge in such political > speeches/sloganeering from Jama Masjid, > > or > >> visit and seek support from his Political Mecca of > OIC (and/or Pakistan) > > and > >> yet at the same time hypocritically claim that the > "Hurriyat" > >> movement is a secular one. > >>> > >>> It has amused me more to see how easily the > likes of Umar Farooq, Prof > >> Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other Hurriyat > 'moderates') > > are > >> able to fool people into buying their > 'secular' credentials. > >>> > >>> My Kashmiri Pandit brethren might lynch me for > saying this, but I have > >> much more respect for the constant political > position of someone like > > Hurriyati > >> hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani (even if I > disagree with his arguments) > > who is > >> firm in his belief that J&K as Muslim Majority > 'territory' > > should > >> be a part of Pakistan. > >>> > >>> I am sure you did not mean to equate the > situations but I found it > > strange > >> that you mentioned in the same breath the > "peaceful... victory > > rally" > >> starting from Hazratbal with "siege of Hazrat > Bal in the early > > '90s or > >> for that matter the siege of Charar e-Sharif in > '95 or > >>> for that matter the Golden Temple in the > '80s". > >>> > >>> In all three 'siege' mentioned, there > were bands of armed > >> terrorists holed up inside the three religious > places. Some might choose > > to > >> call them 'freedom fighters' or > "Mujahideen". > >>> > >>> Kshmendra > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> --- On Sat, 7/5/08, S. Jabbar > wrote: > >>> > >>> From: S. Jabbar > >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near > Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among > > 14 > >> injured > >>> To: "Shivam Vij शिवम् > विज् " > >> , "sarai list" > >> > >>> Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 1:07 PM > >>> > >>> I think you may want to ask why it was > necessary to begin a victory > > rally > >>> from a religious place and how any of us would > have reacted if Advani > > were > >>> to embark on another 'victory' rally > from Somnath or Ayodhya. > >> These > >>> so-called victory rallies will only add fuel > to the Jammu-Kashmir/ > >>> Hindu-Muslim conflagration. > >>> > >>> Hazrat Bal and the Jama Masjid are not neutral > sites and have been > >>> politically charged ever since the 1930s when > the Quit Kashmir > > movement > >> was > >>> launched against the Maharaja. What must have > started off as an > > equally > >>> 'peaceful' gathering turned violent > and a man was killed. > > That > >> was > >>> reason > >>> enough for mass rioting. You may be aware of > the siege of Hazrat Bal > > in > >> the > >>> early '90s or for that matter the siege of > Charar e-Sharif in > > '95 > >> or > >>> for > >>> that matter the Golden Temple in the '80s. > >>> > >>> The Hurriyat is not unaware that the state > cannot risk a religious > > site > >>> becoming another site of contestation. It > would try and control what > > in > >> all > >>> likelihood would turn into yet another > communally charged and violent > >> event. > >>> And yet it decided to go ahead. The stakes > are high and I really > >> don't > >>> think anyone is above using religion to > further their political ends. > >>> --sj > >>> > >>> > >>> On 7/5/08 12:43 PM, "Shivam Vij > शिवम् > > विज्" > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> This is what happens when you prevent > people from addressing > >>>> peaceful > >>> gatherings... > >>> > >>> > >>> o o o o > >>> > >>> > >>> Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among > >>>> 14 injured > >>> > >>> Special Correspondent, 5 July > >>>> 2008 > >>> > http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/05/stories/2008070559931300.htm > >>> > >>> The clash > >>>> followed prayers to celebrate the > "victory" in the land > >> transfer > >>>> issue > >>> > >>> > >>> SRINAGAR: Senior Hurriyat Conference leader > Shabir Shah was among > >>>> 14 > >>> people injured on Friday, following a scuffle > between police and > >>> supporters > >>>> of separatist leaders after they offered > prayers at the > >>> Hazratbal shrine to > >>>> celebrate the recent "victory" > in the land > >>> transfer issue. > >>> > >>> The call for > >>>> "Hazratbal Chalo" was given by > Syed Ali Geelani, head of > >>> a faction of the > >>>> Hurriyat Conference and supported by > Mirwaiz Umar > >>> Farooq, head of another. > >>>> However, both were placed under house > arrest > >>> by the police. Mr. Shah and other > >>>> leaders, however, reached Hazratbal > >>> amid heavy deployment of police and > >>>> paramilitary CRPF and offered > >>> prayers besides addressing the people. > >>> > >>> Mr. Shah > >>>> and Ashraf Sehrai, another senior leader > denounced the > >>> government for putting > >>>> Mr. Geelani and Mr. Mirwaiz under house > arrest. > >>> > >>> A protester hurls back a tear > >>>> smoke shell towards the police. > >>> > >>> On their way back, Mr. Shabir Shah, Mr. > >>>> Sehrai, Naeem Khan, Sheikh > >>> Aziz, Shafi Reshi, Firdous Shah and others led > a > >>>> strong procession, > >>> which was lathi-charged. > >>> > >>> Fourteen people, including Mr. > >>>> Shabir Shah, were injured. He was > >>> shifted to the S.K. Institute of Medical > >>>> Sciences (SKIMS) for > >>> treatment. > >>> > >>> Even as rumours spread that he was critical, > >>>> Director SKIMS Abdul > >>> Hamid Zargar told The Hindu that he was > stable. Another > >>>> procession > >>> taken from Jamia Masjid and led by the head > imam, was dispersed > >>>> by > >>> police with smoke shells. Many people were > arrested. Another > >>>> Hurriyat > >>> leader Javed Mir was arrested when he tried to > take out a > >>>> procession > >>> towards Hazratbal in Khanyar > >>>> area. > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open > >>>> discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To > >>>> subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe > >>> in > >>>> the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: > >>>> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: > >>>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media > and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in > >>> the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media > and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in > >> the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > > >> > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 23:24:19 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:24:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured In-Reply-To: <989612.50161.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <989612.50161.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70807081054m76c20733l7c1e6c4540240a14@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rahul have u ever wondered why there is a song called ' imagine there is no country ' and if it is just a song and everything else is rock solid, then i feel there is not even iron in the soul, it is barren, and our head pieces is filled with staw.... now what is soul? whenever i go to Socretes as a teacher i feel the urge to question 'the state' endlessly ... similarly when i read myth , i see a good a king in the form of Raja Harish Chander who abandoned his throne for a word..... and again who is great prince? I think of Buddha.... i think if one fills ones soul with such a teacher and such a king and prince then that 'iron' might keep on coming and going...dissolving with the fresh water of a country called no-man's land I think of Manto's Toba Tek Singh, in that there is a mad character, who has no place under the sun upon which is goverened by laws and systems.... but that his death between the boarders of two countries smashed nationalism in one go... i like the tools which rip a word, a system, a status quo...may be i am also mad.... but there is some method in this madness....and there are many practiontioners of this madness in our world.. these mad people have worked passionetly for the understnding of human being..... they need space to be.... further, when i say nationalism, i say NAY-TIONALISM... this can be the mantra....the mantra which restores the existential dignity of a human being.... France and Englad fought like mad dogs but today there is a single currency in europe... why can we dream something similar in Aisa, i think Gandhi ji would be delighted to see that currency without his toothless image on it.... you said that i dislike nationalsim, i dont, i am indifferent to nationalism.... and when people who listens similar music too share halva puri or nihiri/paya they really share love, but you know how we oppose our women to marry with men of other religion... is that STATE you admire....which is busy playing vote bank politics in the name of democracy... now, i dont know what is the priorirty of issues in your opinion..... i think women's issues is as important as environmental issues, which is as important as ethics and morals which is as important as respect for the common man.... and above all, there is something called PAST which surpasses our written word...surpasses our written history...it is aobut that memory which is in the form of TIME embedded within us... our collective memory it is not about a slogan, saray jahan say achha...unfortunately when we sing it we sing 'the meaning', but not the poem... State officers and corrupt ministers of a country... i dont think i have been able to answer your question.. because you feel majority is with you...i am minority within the minority within the minority... so love is On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 8:25 PM, Rahul Asthana wrote: > Hi Inder, > Your position of "not believing in nationalism" is typical of many on this list.I am not arguing for nationalism against anarchy. I do not think there is anything noble in being a nationalist \patriot. But I do realize the utilitarian value of the concept of nation.Anyhow, lets for a while assume that your idea of "not believing in the nationalism" is the way to go. > What do you suppose we should do now? Organize an Indo-Pak concert where someone will sing "Imagine there's no country" or perhaps Sayonee by Junoon and then everyone will start hugging,kissing and dancing kumbaya with each other, halwa poori or nihari\paya will be distributed and all will go home and live happily ever after. Is that likely to happen? > A while back,when I was making the argument that sovereign Kashmir is not a feasible state(for reasons that I had given earlier),the arguments I got in response was that I was not romantic enough,I had a diseased mind, Kashmir is too beautiful to stay occupied etc etc.. Then there was the usual "I dont believe in nationalism". > Your dislike of nationalism may be the principle around which you frame your argument but THAT STATEMENT, BY ITSELF CAN NOT BE YOUR ARGUMENT.If you can build any realistic and pragmatic course of action around that principle then you should forward it.Just chanting this mantra of "not believing in nationalism",is neither here nor there and would make you irrelevant.Till the time that nation states are a reality you cant just ignore them or wish them away. > > Regards > Rahul > > --- On Tue, 7/8/08, inder salim wrote: > >> From: inder salim >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:39 AM >> dear kshmendra >> >> for now, all i want to say is that i am not for any kind of >> nationalism.... i dont know what that will lead to, i think >> it will be >> perhpas better for humanity, if nation states disappear >> suddenly and >> enable people to move freely on this planet earth.... >> >> i have a dream, you may say it is utopian... so what. >> >> desire for nation is not bad, i have huge admiration for >> people like >> Bhagat Singh, but the the powers sturctures that cling on >> the that >> state in the name of democracy or people is fradulent. Now >> dont tell >> me that we helpless to not-to-see-the-other >> >> it is interesting to notice how people's simple faith >> gets translated >> into something necessary costly rituals... say prem >> chand's Govdaan, >> .. . i see misery for the innocent lot, and for that i have >> every >> right to undermine, a state, a religion or an >> identiy....and once it >> becomes a system that gnaws the dignity existential core >> of human >> being,..... i want to restore that >> >> one is free to remain glued to something as long as it >> keeps on >> milking other's cow. that is why i talked about morals >> and ethics. >> >> now see, there is a great democracy in america and england >> but when i >> comes to their foreign affairs they looks barbarians.... >> and i dont know how to admire their democratic systems >> endlessly if >> there is no change.... right now, everyting is stuck, >> >> just see, what their democracies did to afganistan and >> iraq. i have >> more respect for a poor afgani who >> has no choice but to shoot alongwith a taliban commander >> and work in >> poppy fields in comparison to some one who is drinking beer >> in new >> york while criticizing muslim fundamentalism.... >> >> in that sense, i have nothing against politics, but against >> the >> polticians who are at the helm of affairs.....as jean paul >> sartre says >> that politics enters through all the pores of your >> body,....and >> realization of that sensitizes me, realization of that >> reduces my >> arrogance, and i think that is how i want to understand >> politics, >> >> and that way i know what is the meaning of GAME in >> politics.... now you that.... >> >> now religion, i believe, >> the state has no business to enter the affairs of the >> shrine.... why >> on earth state should provide facilites to a piligrim... >> a true piligrim has to be really prepared , both physically >> and mentally.... >> and above all, SHIVA i believe is about death also... you >> might be >> knowing, there is a mountain , just one stop before the >> amarnath cave >> which is called Bhairav Baal, and it was famous for real >> piligirms to >> climb it and jump on the other side of it....a true love of >> shiva will >> be quite educated and brave and should understand the >> significance of >> death and sprituality in one go... >> >> i still dont understand how a shiva lover can throw stones >> at others, >> or burn a tyre, if one goes by the kashmiri philisophy of >> shivaism >> well you are within your rights to call it politics, but i >> see decadence in it >> >> at the best it is opportunism, and once it is so, it is >> free for all, >> >> once we realize the absence of morals and ethics in our >> political >> acitivity, we are at the mercy of goons and the politicians >> who love >> to make a fool of each one of us. >> >> about disrespect, just show me one communtiy, at grass root >> level, in >> the world history which not suffered humiliation at the >> hands of their >> rulers. >> that is why i am not interested in those who eulogise kings >> and queens >> for this or that.... people have suffered, even when a >> great king was >> constructing a Taj mahal or making a great wall in china, >> same goes >> for the construction of great temples and mosques.......i >> see pain of >> a human being in the form of an monument, beauty of it >> comes next.... >> >> that way i see the possibity of a shift in histroy, that >> way we can >> see the emergence of a new politics, a new way of living, >> beyond >> mindsets and old designs , old territories.... >> >> my dear, that muse on the classical canvas died long >> ago.... we are >> finished with waste land even, we have come to a stage when >> even >> writing a poem is impossiblity.... >> >> politics is dead in that sense...the issue is ethics, >> environment, and >> my favourite word 'love' is kicking alive, >> >> with love and regards >> is >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >> wrote: >> > Dear Inder Salim >> > >> > You say "i know you know well what i am talking >> about...." >> > >> > No Sir I do not. Either we are talking about different >> things or it must be the limitations of my understanding. >> > >> > It must also be the limitations of my being able to >> express myself that you read meanings other than what I >> think I have placed in my words. >> > >> > - I ddear o not know what "GAMES" you are >> talking about. If you explain them in simple words, I might >> be able to comment >> > >> > - I spoke about "respect" for >> "constancy" in "political positions". >> That could or could not translate into "respect" >> for the person. That also does not preclude the ones being >> talked about being political adversaries or being enemies >> of my country >> > >> > - Let me give another example. I see China as being >> (if not an enemy these days) inimical towards India on many >> fronts. Yet I have immense respect for China in many >> spheres. >> > >> > - Let me give another example. I see Pakistan as >> continuing to be an enemy of India. I have no respect for >> (I have contempt for) Pakistan's shifts over Kashmir >> especially in the context of it's duplicity with the >> "Hurriyat Pasand". Yet there are things about and >> from Pakistan I love. I love their Muslin and Men's >> Shalvaar Kameez, I love Mehdi Hassan and Nayyara Noor and >> Sabri Brothers, I love Faiz and Parveen Shakir and Amjad >> Islam Amjad >> > >> > - Saw your list of those you respect. I have no >> argument with you over that list. >> > >> > - You do not respect 'politicians'. For me >> that is too generalised a statement. Maybe I would not >> respect "some" or even "most" >> politicians" but the political system is essential (in >> my opinion) to any organised society. Irrespective of the >> form of Government or quality of Governance, every country >> has a political system. It has to have one. If there >> isn't one, there will be anarchy. In the case of a >> "democracy", the politician is of critical >> importance to the citizen. The Constitution allows Laws, >> Laws take shape from Legislation, Legislation is enacted by >> Legislators, Legislators are Politicians. Every aspect of >> the quality of life in India (for example) is directly or >> indirectly affected on and effected by the Politicians. You >> may be dismissive of Politicians if you want to be. For me >> Politicians are extremely important entities to be >> evaluated and sieved in one's judgement. >> > >> > - I am a firm believer that my final societal identity >> is the Passport I hold or am eligible for. All Inter- Nation >> interactions including those of their citizens are >> conditional to the Laws of each country. Yes I am a firm >> believer in 'nationalism'. I subscribe to Indian >> Nationalism. You perhaps are more tuned (correct if I have >> misheard the strains) into Kashmiri Nationalism. Only the >> forces of Nature respect no National Boundaries. All other >> aspects of our lives are linked to the country we belong to >> (because the Laws of the country govern every other aspect >> of our lives). Actually the Laws of a Country can even >> interfere with the reign of Nature, which is when >> Environmental Concerns take centre-stage. >> > >> > - Is the "Kashmir issue" about "Ethics >> & Morals"? Perhaps it is to some degree in some >> areas. I see it more as being about "Rights and >> Responsibilities" and even more so as being >> "Political" and about "Religion" >> > >> > - You speak about the Kashmiri "Muslims" >> having been disrespected. I do not understand that >> judgement. Perhaps you might elaborate on how the >> "Muslims" of Kashmir have been >> "disrespected". >> > >> > - You speak about the SASB affair having >> "undermined the sensitivity of .... Muslims". >> Again I do not understand how SASB affair is linked with >> "Kashmiri Muslims". Unless of course you yourself >> subscribe to the view that the SASB affair was one of >> Muslims against Hindus. >> > >> > (By your pointed reference to "Muslims" you >> seem to be in agreement with me that the "Kashmir >> Issue" is about "Religion") >> > >> > - You speak about " 1990 disrespect to kashmiri >> pandits" being about "ethics and morals". >> Perhaps it is to some extent. I see it more as a Political >> affair. I see it more as failure of governance (both at the >> Centre and State) in having allowed a "fear >> atmosphere" to develop. >> > >> > At least in this mail I see the point that you are >> trying to make. Correct me if I understood wrongly. You >> state that you "know" what you should >> "respect" and seem to suggest I do not >> "know". Fair enough. You are entitled to your >> judgement. >> > >> > Kshmendra >> > >> > >> > >> > --- On Mon, 7/7/08, inder salim >> wrote: >> > >> > From: inder salim >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; >> Shabir Shah among 14 injured >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net >> > Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 7:00 PM >> > >> > Dear kshmendra >> > >> > i quote myself >> > >> > and once we are finished with these games.... only >> then we can begin >> > to talk about ETHICS and MORALS >> > >> > it is again your choice to ignore the most important >> line of my last >> > post... i dont feel insecure .... >> > >> > i know you know well what i am talking about.... >> > >> > now see, you take a position with regard to >> 'Respect', >> > you respect, i dont know whethere with capital R or >> with small r, but >> > u respect the politicians who are against the >> occupation of indian >> > foreces in kashmir.but strangely in the next line you >> think that they >> > are enemies of the indian state and you are Indian, >> right . >> > i >> > on the contrary i dont respect a politican, ....... i >> have respect for >> > a poet, a musician, an ariist, a social worker a >> simple worker, a job >> > less man frustrated by the indiferent state. i respect >> a poor man on >> > the road side, i respect a tribalman who is contantly >> being driven >> > out of his ecology , >> > >> > i respect millions of landless people in india.... i >> have respect for >> > the womens rights, i repect you has a human being and >> in that sense i >> > respect a politician even. >> > >> > yes, i respect the morals and ethics, more than being >> a nationalist >> > merely as an identity tag....i respect rebels...... i >> respect my >> > teacher AK Mir who publically slapped Mufti Mohd Syed >> in Bijbehara >> > because he as a Congress pradesh president >> masterminded 1986 communal >> > riots.... i respect a petty theif who threw shit on >> the judge in delhi >> > because he was languishing in the jail and could not >> afford to bail >> > himself out. >> > >> > i have respect for the courage.... and similarly i >> have respect for >> > those who uphold their existential beings wheenver the >> state or the >> > power structures openly supress and disrespects the >> ethics and morals >> > of the other.... >> > >> > that is why kashmir issue is about ethics and morals >> as well..... >> > >> > that is why the land transter to shrine board >> undermined the >> > sensitivity of the already disrespected kashmiri >> muslims... >> > >> > that is why 1990 disrespect to kashmiri pandits is >> also about ethics >> > and morals as well.. >> > >> > i see human being through this prism of ethics and >> morals ... i mix >> > love with it and see some possiblity to heal the self >> and the other at >> > the same time..i may fail in the end because plolitics >> is exercised >> > quite ruthlessly in india and abroad.... but i dont >> regret about my >> > position. >> > >> > at least i know what i should respect >> > >> > with love >> > inder salim >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >> >> > wrote: >> >> Dear Inder Salim >> >> >> >> I wish I had understood what point you were trying >> to make. >> >> >> >> What I did notice is your quoting me partially and >> out of context and then >> > using that to put a spin on my words so that you could >> indulge in innuendos and >> > make judgements about me. >> >> >> >> I was talking of having respect for the >> 'constant political >> > position' of people whoever it may be. Geelani was >> an example for the sake >> > of comparing with (what I see as) hypocritical >> declamations of the >> > "moderate" Hurriyatis (especially Umar >> Farooq) and their claims of >> > their brand of the "Hurriyat" call being a >> 'secular' one. It >> > is called 'munaafaqat'. >> >> >> >> Just to explain it further, I similarly have >> respect for the 'constant >> > political position' of Yasin Malik in that he >> wants (or used to want) the >> > erstwhile princely State of Jammu & Kashmir to be >> an Independent Country >> > with it's territories freed from both Indian and >> Pakistani control. Again I >> > say this at the risk of being lynched by my KP >> brethren. Yasin, in proclaiming >> > his having eschewed violence was foolish enough to >> admit that he (and/or JKLF) >> > had previous to that indulged in 'killings' >> >> >> >> I disagree with both positions, of Geelani and >> Yasin, but that does not >> > stop me from acknowledging their constancy. >> >> >> >> Inder you talk about my 'positions' but >> you obviously have no idea >> > of what they are. You only presume. >> >> >> >> Anyone who seeks to disturb the peace in my >> country India is for me an >> > enemy of the nation. Anyone who seeks to break-up >> India or bring in violent >> > divides between it's people is for me an enemy of >> India. They should be >> > recognised as, dealt with and treated as enemies. >> Before your make another >> > presumption, the 'recognising', 'dealing >> with' and >> > 'treating' as enemies neither automatically >> means nor is suggested by >> > me should be done by repressive means or incarceration >> or State Violence. >> >> >> >> The affiliations of these 'enemies' are of >> no importance. They >> > could be from Hurriyat Conference, or JKLF or RSS or >> VHP or Bajrang Dal or SIMI >> > or any other organisation. >> >> >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- On Sun, 7/6/08, inder salim >> wrote: >> >> >> >> From: inder salim >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; >> Shabir Shah among 14 >> > injured >> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> >> Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 11:39 PM >> >> >> >> Dear Kshmendra >> >> >> >> I quote you, "but I have much more respect >> for the constant political >> >> position of someone like Hurriyati hardliner Syed >> Ali Shah Geelani" >> >> >> >> just read your statment again and remember when >> Syed Ali Shah Geelani >> >> too said similar about RSS. He really dislkes >> anything secular >> >> because a religous stand is logical for both >> Geelani sahib and for >> >> RSS. anything else is ambigous >> >> >> >> now i quote you again, "It has amused me >> more to see how easily the >> >> likes of Umar Farooq, Prof Abdul Ghani Bhat, >> Shabbir Shah (and other >> >> Hurriyat 'moderates') are able to fool >> people into buying their >> >> 'secular' credentials" >> >> >> >> just remember when Atal Behari Vajpayee wrote a >> poem about the sad >> >> demolition of Babri Mosque...The words moistened >> the eyes of the >> >> naive, but we knew how crocodile weeps... you also >> know it well >> >> >> >> now i know there are positions, well you are >> within your rights to >> >> hold one ... that is ok >> >> >> >> i just met a kashmiri pandit who was demonstrating >> at jantar mantar >> >> today.... and i sarcastically congratulated about >> the news KASHSMIR >> >> PANDITOON NAY TODFOD KI, ( riots by kashmir >> pandits ) It is perhaps >> >> for the first time i heard about such a news. He >> understood and >> >> replied quickly... " if we dont resort to >> thes acts who will listen >> > to >> >> us, we are politically irrlevant in the present >> political >> >> situation.... we need to read these situations >> quickly, and we do it >> >> from time to time. " >> >> >> >> now see how their brother is the valley do the >> same things for their >> >> own survial. for example PDP, who need to >> something from time to time >> >> to stay in relevant in the volatite politcal games >> being played in the >> >> valley..... what is so wrong about it if >> everything else is not. >> >> >> >> and once we are finished with these games.... only >> then we can being >> >> to talk about ETHICS and MORALS >> >> >> >> >> >> till then best >> >> >> >> inder salim >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 12:27 AM, Kshmendra Kaul >> > >> >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Sonia >> >>> >> >>> There is nothing surprising in the religious >> place Hazrartbal being >> > the >> >> start-point for the 'victory' rally. It >> only reinforces the >> > evaluation >> >> that the 'victory' was sought by one >> religion over the other. For >> > those >> >> who achieved the 'victory', what better >> place to start the >> > celebration >> >> than a Shrine/Mosque. >> >>> >> >>> Our 'secular' commentators may spout >> various theories and >> > analyses >> >> but those who were a part of that >> 'victory' were obviously honest >> > about >> >> what they had achieved and in the name of which >> religion. >> >>> >> >>> Whether it has been the 1931 'bread >> movement' or the intense >> >> rivalry between the 'sher' (of Sheikh >> Abdullah) and >> > 'bakra' (of >> >> Maulvi Farooq) or the Hurriyat >> (freedom/separatist) movement, the pulpits >> > of >> >> both Hazratbal and Jama Masjid have been used as >> much for political >> >> speeches/sloganeering and calls for separatism as >> they have been for >> > religious >> >> sermons. >> >>> >> >>> It has always amused me to see Umar Farooq (as >> just one example among >> >> others) indulge in such political >> speeches/sloganeering from Jama Masjid, >> > or >> >> visit and seek support from his Political Mecca of >> OIC (and/or Pakistan) >> > and >> >> yet at the same time hypocritically claim that the >> "Hurriyat" >> >> movement is a secular one. >> >>> >> >>> It has amused me more to see how easily the >> likes of Umar Farooq, Prof >> >> Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other Hurriyat >> 'moderates') >> > are >> >> able to fool people into buying their >> 'secular' credentials. >> >>> >> >>> My Kashmiri Pandit brethren might lynch me for >> saying this, but I have >> >> much more respect for the constant political >> position of someone like >> > Hurriyati >> >> hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani (even if I >> disagree with his arguments) >> > who is >> >> firm in his belief that J&K as Muslim Majority >> 'territory' >> > should >> >> be a part of Pakistan. >> >>> >> >>> I am sure you did not mean to equate the >> situations but I found it >> > strange >> >> that you mentioned in the same breath the >> "peaceful... victory >> > rally" >> >> starting from Hazratbal with "siege of Hazrat >> Bal in the early >> > '90s or >> >> for that matter the siege of Charar e-Sharif in >> '95 or >> >>> for that matter the Golden Temple in the >> '80s". >> >>> >> >>> In all three 'siege' mentioned, there >> were bands of armed >> >> terrorists holed up inside the three religious >> places. Some might choose >> > to >> >> call them 'freedom fighters' or >> "Mujahideen". >> >>> >> >>> Kshmendra >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> --- On Sat, 7/5/08, S. Jabbar >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> From: S. Jabbar >> >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near >> Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among >> > 14 >> >> injured >> >>> To: "Shivam Vij शिवम् >> विज् " >> >> , "sarai list" >> >> >> >>> Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 1:07 PM >> >>> >> >>> I think you may want to ask why it was >> necessary to begin a victory >> > rally >> >>> from a religious place and how any of us would >> have reacted if Advani >> > were >> >>> to embark on another 'victory' rally >> from Somnath or Ayodhya. >> >> These >> >>> so-called victory rallies will only add fuel >> to the Jammu-Kashmir/ >> >>> Hindu-Muslim conflagration. >> >>> >> >>> Hazrat Bal and the Jama Masjid are not neutral >> sites and have been >> >>> politically charged ever since the 1930s when >> the Quit Kashmir >> > movement >> >> was >> >>> launched against the Maharaja. What must have >> started off as an >> > equally >> >>> 'peaceful' gathering turned violent >> and a man was killed. >> > That >> >> was >> >>> reason >> >>> enough for mass rioting. You may be aware of >> the siege of Hazrat Bal >> > in >> >> the >> >>> early '90s or for that matter the siege of >> Charar e-Sharif in >> > '95 >> >> or >> >>> for >> >>> that matter the Golden Temple in the '80s. >> >>> >> >>> The Hurriyat is not unaware that the state >> cannot risk a religious >> > site >> >>> becoming another site of contestation. It >> would try and control what >> > in >> >> all >> >>> likelihood would turn into yet another >> communally charged and violent >> >> event. >> >>> And yet it decided to go ahead. The stakes >> are high and I really >> >> don't >> >>> think anyone is above using religion to >> further their political ends. >> >>> --sj >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On 7/5/08 12:43 PM, "Shivam Vij >> शिवम् >> > विज्" >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> This is what happens when you prevent >> people from addressing >> >>>> peaceful >> >>> gatherings... >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> o o o o >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among >> >>>> 14 injured >> >>> >> >>> Special Correspondent, 5 July >> >>>> 2008 >> >>> >> http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/05/stories/2008070559931300.htm >> >>> >> >>> The clash >> >>>> followed prayers to celebrate the >> "victory" in the land >> >> transfer >> >>>> issue >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> SRINAGAR: Senior Hurriyat Conference leader >> Shabir Shah was among >> >>>> 14 >> >>> people injured on Friday, following a scuffle >> between police and >> >>> supporters >> >>>> of separatist leaders after they offered >> prayers at the >> >>> Hazratbal shrine to >> >>>> celebrate the recent "victory" >> in the land >> >>> transfer issue. >> >>> >> >>> The call for >> >>>> "Hazratbal Chalo" was given by >> Syed Ali Geelani, head of >> >>> a faction of the >> >>>> Hurriyat Conference and supported by >> Mirwaiz Umar >> >>> Farooq, head of another. >> >>>> However, both were placed under house >> arrest >> >>> by the police. Mr. Shah and other >> >>>> leaders, however, reached Hazratbal >> >>> amid heavy deployment of police and >> >>>> paramilitary CRPF and offered >> >>> prayers besides addressing the people. >> >>> >> >>> Mr. Shah >> >>>> and Ashraf Sehrai, another senior leader >> denounced the >> >>> government for putting >> >>>> Mr. Geelani and Mr. Mirwaiz under house >> arrest. >> >>> >> >>> A protester hurls back a tear >> >>>> smoke shell towards the police. >> >>> >> >>> On their way back, Mr. Shabir Shah, Mr. >> >>>> Sehrai, Naeem Khan, Sheikh >> >>> Aziz, Shafi Reshi, Firdous Shah and others led >> a >> >>>> strong procession, >> >>> which was lathi-charged. >> >>> >> >>> Fourteen people, including Mr. >> >>>> Shabir Shah, were injured. He was >> >>> shifted to the S.K. Institute of Medical >> >>>> Sciences (SKIMS) for >> >>> treatment. >> >>> >> >>> Even as rumours spread that he was critical, >> >>>> Director SKIMS Abdul >> >>> Hamid Zargar told The Hindu that he was >> stable. Another >> >>>> procession >> >>> taken from Jamia Masjid and led by the head >> imam, was dispersed >> >>>> by >> >>> police with smoke shells. Many people were >> arrested. Another >> >>>> Hurriyat >> >>> leader Javed Mir was arrested when he tried to >> take out a >> >>>> procession >> >>> towards Hazratbal in Khanyar >> >>>> area. >> >>> _________________________________________ >> >>> reader-list: an open >> >>>> discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> To >> >>>> subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe >> >>> in >> >>>> the subject header. >> >>> To unsubscribe: >> >>>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> List archive: >> >>>> >> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _________________________________________ >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media >> and the city. >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in >> >>> the subject header. >> >>> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> List archive: >> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _________________________________________ >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media >> and the city. >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and >> the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in >> >> the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and >> the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> > the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject >> header. >> > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject >> header. >> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> > > > > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Wed Jul 9 07:15:59 2008 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured In-Reply-To: <47e122a70807081054m76c20733l7c1e6c4540240a14@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <36514.58148.qm@web53607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Inder, I am also "indifferent to nationalism".With that out of the way,what do you propose we should campaign for,support,preach,do etc with respect to your pan national vision in general and Kashmir in particular?How can we bring your dream to fruition in Kashmir?In what way can we help Kashmiris and Kashmir and make a difference there? P.S.1 You don't have to answer this question if this cause is not important to you.Or maybe just answer it as an academic exercise. 2.Continuing to dream and write poetry and sing songs is also a valid answer,I will accept it. Thanks Rahul --- On Tue, 7/8/08, inder salim wrote: > From: inder salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 11:24 PM > Dear Rahul > have u ever wondered why there is a song called ' > imagine there is no country ' > and if it is just a song and everything else is rock solid, > then i > feel there is not even iron in the soul, > it is barren, and our head pieces is filled with staw.... > > now what is soul? whenever i go to Socretes as a > teacher i feel > the urge to question 'the state' endlessly ... > similarly when i read > myth , i see a good a king in the form of Raja Harish > Chander who > abandoned his throne for a word..... and again who is great > prince? I > think of Buddha.... i think if one fills ones soul with > such a teacher > and such a king and prince then that 'iron' might > keep on coming and > going...dissolving with the fresh water of a country called > no-man's > land > > I think of Manto's Toba Tek Singh, in that there is a > mad character, > who has no place under the sun upon which is goverened by > laws and > systems.... but that his death between the boarders of two > countries > smashed nationalism in one go... i like the tools which rip > a word, a > system, a status quo...may be i am also mad.... > > but there is some method in this madness....and there are > many > practiontioners of this madness in our world.. these mad > people have > worked passionetly for the understnding of human being..... > they need > space to be.... > > further, when i say nationalism, i say NAY-TIONALISM... > this can be > the mantra....the mantra which restores the existential > dignity of a > human being.... > > France and Englad fought like mad dogs but today there is a > single > currency in europe... why can we dream something similar in > Aisa, > > i think Gandhi ji would be delighted to see that currency > without his > toothless image on it.... > > you said that i dislike nationalsim, i dont, i am > indifferent to nationalism.... > and when people who listens similar music too share halva > puri or > nihiri/paya they really share love, > > but you know how we oppose our women to marry with men of > other religion... > is that STATE you admire....which is busy playing vote bank > politics > in the name of democracy... > > now, i dont know what is the priorirty of issues in your > opinion..... > i think women's issues is as important as environmental > issues, which > is as important as ethics and morals which is as important > as respect > for the common man.... > > and above all, there is something called PAST which > surpasses our > written word...surpasses our written history...it is aobut > that > memory which is in the form of TIME embedded within us... > our > collective memory > > it is not about a slogan, saray jahan say > achha...unfortunately when > we sing it we sing 'the meaning', but not the > poem... > State officers and corrupt ministers of a country... > > i dont think i have been able to answer your question.. > because you > feel majority is with you...i am minority within the > minority within > the minority... > > so love > is > > > On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 8:25 PM, Rahul Asthana > wrote: > > Hi Inder, > > Your position of "not believing in > nationalism" is typical of many on this list.I am not > arguing for nationalism against anarchy. I do not think > there is anything noble in being a nationalist > \patriot. But I do realize the utilitarian value of the > concept of nation.Anyhow, lets for a while assume that your > idea of "not believing in the nationalism" is the > way to go. > > What do you suppose we should do now? Organize an > Indo-Pak concert where someone will sing "Imagine > there's no country" or perhaps Sayonee by Junoon > and then everyone will start hugging,kissing and dancing > kumbaya with each other, halwa poori or nihari\paya > will be distributed and all will go home and live happily > ever after. Is that likely to happen? > > A while back,when I was making the argument that > sovereign Kashmir is not a feasible state(for reasons that > I had given earlier),the arguments I got in response was > that I was not romantic enough,I had a diseased mind, > Kashmir is too beautiful to stay occupied etc etc.. Then > there was the usual "I dont believe in > nationalism". > > Your dislike of nationalism may be the principle > around which you frame your argument but THAT STATEMENT, BY > ITSELF CAN NOT BE YOUR ARGUMENT.If you can build any > realistic and pragmatic course of action around that > principle then you should forward it.Just chanting this > mantra of "not believing in nationalism",is > neither here nor there and would make you irrelevant.Till > the time that nation states are a reality you cant just > ignore them or wish them away. > > > > Regards > > Rahul > > > > --- On Tue, 7/8/08, inder salim > wrote: > > > >> From: inder salim > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; > Shabir Shah among 14 injured > >> To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:39 AM > >> dear kshmendra > >> > >> for now, all i want to say is that i am not for > any kind of > >> nationalism.... i dont know what that will lead > to, i think > >> it will be > >> perhpas better for humanity, if nation states > disappear > >> suddenly and > >> enable people to move freely on this planet > earth.... > >> > >> i have a dream, you may say it is utopian... so > what. > >> > >> desire for nation is not bad, i have huge > admiration for > >> people like > >> Bhagat Singh, but the the powers sturctures that > cling on > >> the that > >> state in the name of democracy or people is > fradulent. Now > >> dont tell > >> me that we helpless to not-to-see-the-other > >> > >> it is interesting to notice how people's > simple faith > >> gets translated > >> into something necessary costly rituals...say > prem > >> chand's Govdaan, > >> .. . i see misery for the innocent lot, and for > that i have > >> every > >> right to undermine, a state, a religion or an > >> identiy....and once it > >> becomes a system that gnaws the dignity > existential core > >> of human > >> being,..... i want to restore that > >> > >> one is free to remain glued to something as long > as it > >> keeps on > >> milking other's cow. that is why i talked > about morals > >> and ethics. > >> > >> now see, there is a great democracy in america and > england > >> but when i > >> comes to their foreign affairs they looks > barbarians.... > >> and i dont know how to admire their democratic > systems > >> endlessly if > >> there is no change.... right now, everyting is > stuck, > >> > >> just see, what their democracies did to afganistan > and > >> iraq. i have > >> more respect for a poor afgani who > >> has no choice but to shoot alongwith a taliban > commander > >> and work in > >> poppy fields in comparison to some one who is > drinking beer > >> in new > >> york while criticizing muslim fundamentalism.... > >> > >> in that sense, i have nothing against politics, > but against > >> the > >> polticians who are at the helm of affairs.....as > jean paul > >> sartre says > >> that politics enters through all the pores of your > >> body,....and > >> realization of that sensitizes me, realization of > that > >> reduces my > >> arrogance, and i think that is how i want to > understand > >> politics, > >> > >> and that way i know what is the meaning of GAME in > >> politics.... now you that.... > >> > >> now religion, i believe, > >> the state has no business to enter the affairs of > the > >> shrine.... why > >> on earth state should provide facilites to a > piligrim... > >> a true piligrim has to be really prepared , both > physically > >> and mentally.... > >> and above all, SHIVA i believe is about death > also... you > >> might be > >> knowing, there is a mountain , just one stop > before the > >> amarnath cave > >> which is called Bhairav Baal, and it was famous > for real > >> piligirms to > >> climb it and jump on the other side of it....a > true love of > >> shiva will > >> be quite educated and brave and should understand > the > >> significance of > >> death and sprituality in one go... > >> > >> i still dont understand how a shiva lover can > throw stones > >> at others, > >> or burn a tyre, if one goes by the kashmiri > philisophy of > >> shivaism > >> well you are within your rights to call it > politics, but i > >> see decadence in it > >> > >> at the best it is opportunism, and once it is so, > it is > >> free for all, > >> > >> once we realize the absence of morals and ethics > in our > >> political > >> acitivity, we are at the mercy of goons and the > politicians > >> who love > >> to make a fool of each one of us. > >> > >> about disrespect, just show me one communtiy, at > grass root > >> level, in > >> the world history which not suffered humiliation > at the > >> hands of their > >> rulers. > >> that is why i am not interested in those who > eulogise kings > >> and queens > >> for this or that.... people have suffered, even > when a > >> great king was > >> constructing a Taj mahal or making a great wall in > china, > >> same goes > >> for the construction of great temples and > mosques.......i > >> see pain of > >> a human being in the form of an monument, beauty > of it > >> comes next.... > >> > >> that way i see the possibity of a shift in > histroy, that > >> way we can > >> see the emergence of a new politics, a new way of > living, > >> beyond > >> mindsets and old designs , old territories.... > >> > >> my dear, that muse on the classical canvas died > long > >> ago.... we are > >> finished with waste land even, we have come to a > stage when > >> even > >> writing a poem is impossiblity.... > >> > >> politics is dead in that sense...the issue is > ethics, > >> environment, and > >> my favourite word 'love' is kicking > alive, > >> > >> with love and regards > >> is > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > >> wrote: > >> > Dear Inder Salim > >> > > >> > You say "i know you know well what i am > talking > >> about...." > >> > > >> > No Sir I do not. Either we are talking about > different > >> things or it must be the limitations of my > understanding. > >> > > >> > It must also be the limitations of my being > able to > >> express myself that you read meanings other than > what I > >> think I have placed in my words. > >> > > >> > - I ddear o not know what "GAMES" > you are > >> talking about. If you explain them in simple > words, I might > >> be able to comment > >> > > >> > - I spoke about "respect" for > >> "constancy" in "political > positions". > >> That could or could not translate into > "respect" > >> for the person. That also does not preclude the > ones being > >> talked about being political adversaries or being > enemies > >> of my country > >> > > >> > - Let me give another example. I see China > as being > >> (if not an enemy these days) inimical towards > India on many > >> fronts. Yet I have immense respect for China in > many > >> spheres. > >> > > >> > - Let me give another example. I see Pakistan > as > >> continuing to be an enemy of India. I have no > respect for > >> (I have contempt for) Pakistan's shifts over > Kashmir > >> especially in the context of it's duplicity > with the > >> "Hurriyat Pasand". Yet there are things > about and > >> from Pakistan I love. I love their Muslin and > Men's > >> Shalvaar Kameez, I love Mehdi Hassan and Nayyara > Noor and > >> Sabri Brothers, I love Faiz and Parveen Shakir and > Amjad > >> Islam Amjad > >> > > >> > - Saw your list of those you respect. I have > no > >> argument with you over that list. > >> > > >> > - You do not respect 'politicians'. > For me > >> that is too generalised a statement. Maybe I would > not > >> respect "some" or even "most" > >> politicians" but the political system is > essential (in > >> my opinion) to any organised society. Irrespective > of the > >> form of Government or quality of Governance, every > country > >> has a political system. It has to have one. If > there > >> isn't one, there will be anarchy. In the case > of a > >> "democracy", the politician is of > critical > >> importance to the citizen. The Constitution allows > Laws, > >> Laws take shape from Legislation, Legislation is > enacted by > >> Legislators, Legislators are Politicians. Every > aspect of > >> the quality of life in India (for example) is > directly or > >> indirectly affected on and effected by the > Politicians. You > >> may be dismissive of Politicians if you want to > be. For me > >> Politicians are extremely important entities to be > >> evaluated and sieved in one's judgement. > >> > > >> > - I am a firm believer that my final societal > identity > >> is the Passport I hold or am eligible for. All > Inter- Nation > >> interactions including those of their citizens are > >> conditional to the Laws of each country. Yes I am > a firm > >> believer in 'nationalism'. I subscribe to > Indian > >> Nationalism. You perhaps are more tuned (correct > if I have > >> misheard the strains) into Kashmiri Nationalism. > Only the > >> forces of Nature respect no National Boundaries. > All other > >> aspects of our lives are linked to the country we > belong to > >> (because the Laws of the country govern every > other aspect > >> of our lives). Actually the Laws of a Country can > even > >> interfere with the reign of Nature, which is when > >> Environmental Concerns take centre-stage. > >> > > >> > - Is the "Kashmir issue" about > "Ethics > >> & Morals"? Perhaps it is to some degree > in some > >> areas. I see it more as being about "Rights > and > >> Responsibilities" and even more so as being > >> "Political" and about > "Religion" > >> > > >> > - You speak about the Kashmiri > "Muslims" > >> having been disrespected. I do not understand > that > >> judgement. Perhaps you might elaborate on how the > >> "Muslims" of Kashmir have been > >> "disrespected". > >> > > >> > - You speak about the SASB affair having > >> "undermined the sensitivity of .... > Muslims". > >> Again I do not understand how SASB affair is > linked with > >> "Kashmiri Muslims". Unless of course you > yourself > >> subscribe to the view that the SASB affair was one > of > >> Muslims against Hindus. > >> > > >> > (By your pointed reference to > "Muslims" you > >> seem to be in agreement with me that the > "Kashmir > >> Issue" is about "Religion") > >> > > >> > - You speak about " 1990 disrespect to > kashmiri > >> pandits" being about "ethics and > morals". > >> Perhaps it is to some extent. I see it more as a > Political > >> affair. I see it more as failure of governance > (both at the > >> Centre and State) in having allowed a "fear > >> atmosphere" to develop. > >> > > >> > At least in this mail I see the point that > you are > >> trying to make. Correct me if I understood > wrongly. You > >> state that you "know" what you should > >> "respect" and seem to suggest I do not > >> "know". Fair enough. You are entitled to > your > >> judgement. > >> > > >> > Kshmendra > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > --- On Mon, 7/7/08, inder salim > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > From: inder salim > > >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near > Hazratbal; > >> Shabir Shah among 14 injured > >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> > Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 7:00 PM > >> > > >> > Dear kshmendra > >> > > >> > i quote myself > >> > > >> > and once we are finished with these games.... > only > >> then we can begin > >> > to talk about ETHICS and MORALS > >> > > >> > it is again your choice to ignore the most > important > >> line of my last > >> > post... i dont feel insecure .... > >> > > >> > i know you know well what i am talking > about.... > >> > > >> > now see, you take a position with regard to > >> 'Respect', > >> > you respect, i dont know whethere with > capital R or > >> with small r, but > >> > u respect the politicians who are against the > >> occupation of indian > >> > foreces in kashmir.but strangely in the next > line you > >> think that they > >> > are enemies of the indian state and you are > Indian, > >> right . > >> > i > >> > on the contrary i dont respect a politican, > ....... i > >> have respect for > >> > a poet, a musician, an ariist, a social > worker a > >> simple worker, a job > >> > less man frustrated by the indiferent state. > i respect > >> a poor man on > >> > the road side, i respect a tribalman who is > contantly > >> being driven > >> > out of his ecology , > >> > > >> > i respect millions of landless people in > india.... i > >> have respect for > >> > the womens rights, i repect you has a human > being and > >> in that sense i > >> > respect a politician even. > >> > > >> > yes, i respect the morals and ethics, more > than being > >> a nationalist > >> > merely as an identity tag....i respect > rebels...... i > >> respect my > >> > teacher AK Mir who publically slapped Mufti > Mohd Syed > >> in Bijbehara > >> > because he as a Congress pradesh president > >> masterminded 1986 communal > >> > riots.... i respect a petty theif who threw > shit on > >> the judge in delhi > >> > because he was languishing in the jail and > could not > >> afford to bail > >> > himself out. > >> > > >> > i have respect for the courage.... and > similarly i > >> have respect for > >> > those who uphold their existential beings > wheenver the > >> state or the > >> > power structures openly supress and > disrespects the > >> ethics and morals > >> > of the other.... > >> > > >> > that is why kashmir issue is about ethics and > morals > >> as well..... > >> > > >> > that is why the land transter to shrine board > >> undermined the > >> > sensitivity of the already disrespected > kashmiri > >> muslims... > >> > > >> > that is why 1990 disrespect to kashmiri > pandits is > >> also about ethics > >> > and morals as well.. > >> > > >> > i see human being through this prism of > ethics and > >> morals ... i mix > >> > love with it and see some possiblity to heal > the self > >> and the other at > >> > the same time..i may fail in the end because > plolitics > >> is exercised > >> > quite ruthlessly in india and abroad.... but > i dont > >> regret about my > >> > position. > >> > > >> > at least i know what i should respect > >> > > >> > with love > >> > inder salim > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Kshmendra > Kaul > >> > >> > wrote: > >> >> Dear Inder Salim > >> >> > >> >> I wish I had understood what point you > were trying > >> to make. > >> >> > >> >> What I did notice is your quoting me > partially and > >> out of context and then > >> > using that to put a spin on my words so that > you could > >> indulge in innuendos and > >> > make judgements about me. > >> >> > >> >> I was talking of having respect for the > >> 'constant political > >> > position' of people whoever it may be. > Geelani was > >> an example for the sake > >> > of comparing with (what I see as) > hypocritical > >> declamations of the > >> > "moderate" Hurriyatis (especially > Umar > >> Farooq) and their claims of > >> > their brand of the "Hurriyat" call > being a > >> 'secular' one. It > >> > is called 'munaafaqat'. > >> >> > >> >> Just to explain it further, I similarly > have > >> respect for the 'constant > >> > political position' of Yasin Malik in > that he > >> wants (or used to want) the > >> > erstwhile princely State of Jammu & > Kashmir to be > >> an Independent Country > >> > with it's territories freed from both > Indian and > >> Pakistani control. Again I > >> > say this at the risk of being lynched by my > KP > >> brethren. Yasin, in proclaiming > >> > his having eschewed violence was foolish > enough to > >> admit that he (and/or JKLF) > >> > had previous to that indulged in > 'killings' > >> >> > >> >> I disagree with both positions, of > Geelani and > >> Yasin, but that does not > >> > stop me from acknowledging their constancy. > >> >> > >> >> Inder you talk about my > 'positions' but > >> you obviously have no idea > >> > of what they are. You only presume. > >> >> > >> >> Anyone who seeks to disturb the peace in > my > >> country India is for me an > >> > enemy of the nation. Anyone who seeks to > break-up > >> India or bring in violent > >> > divides between it's people is for me an > enemy of > >> India. They should be > >> > recognised as, dealt with and treated as > enemies. > >> Before your make another > >> > presumption, the 'recognising', > 'dealing > >> with' and > >> > 'treating' as enemies neither > automatically > >> means nor is suggested by > >> > me should be done by repressive means or > incarceration > >> or State Violence. > >> >> > >> >> The affiliations of these > 'enemies' are of > >> no importance. They > >> > could be from Hurriyat Conference, or JKLF or > RSS or > >> VHP or Bajrang Dal or SIMI > >> > or any other organisation. > >> >> > >> >> Kshmendra > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> --- On Sun, 7/6/08, inder salim > >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> From: inder salim > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near > Hazratbal; > >> Shabir Shah among 14 > >> > injured > >> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> >> Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 11:39 PM > >> >> > >> >> Dear Kshmendra > >> >> > >> >> I quote you, "but I have much more > respect > >> for the constant political > >> >> position of someone like Hurriyati > hardliner Syed > >> Ali Shah Geelani" > >> >> > >> >> just read your statment again and > remember when > >> Syed Ali Shah Geelani > >> >> too said similar about RSS. He really > dislkes > >> anything secular > >> >> because a religous stand is logical for > both > >> Geelani sahib and for > >> >> RSS. anything else is ambigous > >> >> > >> >> now i quote you again, "It has > amused me > >> more to see how easily the > >> >> likes of Umar Farooq, Prof Abdul Ghani > Bhat, > >> Shabbir Shah (and other > >> >> Hurriyat 'moderates') are able to > fool > >> people into buying their > >> >> 'secular' credentials" > >> >> > >> >> just remember when Atal Behari Vajpayee > wrote a > >> poem about the sad > >> >> demolition of Babri Mosque...The words > moistened > >> the eyes of the > >> >> naive, but we knew how crocodile weeps... > you also > >> know it well > >> >> > >> >> now i know there are positions, well you > are > >> within your rights to > >> >> hold one ... that is ok > >> >> > >> >> i just met a kashmiri pandit who was > demonstrating > >> at jantar mantar > >> >> today.... and i sarcastically > congratulated about > >> the news KASHSMIR > >> >> PANDITOON NAY TODFOD KI, ( riots by > kashmir > >> pandits ) It is perhaps > >> >> for the first time i heard about such a > news. He > >> understood and > >> >> replied quickly... " if we dont > resort to > >> thes acts who will listen > >> > to > >> >> us, we are politically irrlevant in the > present > >> political > >> >> situation.... we need to read these > situations > >> quickly, and we do it > >> >> from time to time. " > >> >> > >> >> now see how their brother is the valley > do the > >> same things for their > >> >> own survial. for example PDP, who need > to > >> something from time to time > >> >> to stay in relevant in the volatite > politcal games > >> being played in the > >> >> valley..... what is so wrong about it if > >> everything else is not. > >> >> > >> >> and once we are finished with these > games.... only > >> then we can being > >> >> to talk about ETHICS and MORALS > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> till then best > >> >> > >> >> inder salim > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 12:27 AM, > Kshmendra Kaul > >> > > >> >> wrote: > >> >>> Dear Sonia > >> >>> > >> >>> There is nothing surprising in the > religious > >> place Hazrartbal being > >> > the > >> >> start-point for the 'victory' > rally. It > >> only reinforces the > >> > evaluation > >> >> that the 'victory' was sought by > one > >> religion over the other. For > >> > those > >> >> who achieved the 'victory', what > better > >> place to start the > >> > celebration > >> >> than a Shrine/Mosque. > >> >>> > >> >>> Our 'secular' commentators > may spout > >> various theories and > >> > analyses > >> >> but those who were a part of that > >> 'victory' were obviously honest > >> > about > >> >> what they had achieved and in the name of > which > >> religion. > >> >>> > >> >>> Whether it has been the 1931 > 'bread > >> movement' or the intense > >> >> rivalry between the 'sher' (of > Sheikh > >> Abdullah) and > >> > 'bakra' (of > >> >> Maulvi Farooq) or the Hurriyat > >> (freedom/separatist) movement, the pulpits > >> > of > >> >> both Hazratbal and Jama Masjid have been > used as > >> much for political > >> >> speeches/sloganeering and calls for > separatism as > >> they have been for > >> > religious > >> >> sermons. > >> >>> > >> >>> It has always amused me to see Umar > Farooq (as > >> just one example among > >> >> others) indulge in such political > >> speeches/sloganeering from Jama Masjid, > >> > or > >> >> visit and seek support from his Political > Mecca of > >> OIC (and/or Pakistan) > >> > and > >> >> yet at the same time hypocritically claim > that the > >> "Hurriyat" > >> >> movement is a secular one. > >> >>> > >> >>> It has amused me more to see how > easily the > >> likes of Umar Farooq, Prof > >> >> Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other > Hurriyat > >> 'moderates') > >> > are > >> >> able to fool people into buying their > >> 'secular' credentials. > >> >>> > >> >>> My Kashmiri Pandit brethren might > lynch me for > >> saying this, but I have > >> >> much more respect for the constant > political > >> position of someone like > >> > Hurriyati > >> >> hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani (even if > I > >> disagree with his arguments) > >> > who is > >> >> firm in his belief that J&K as Muslim > Majority > >> 'territory' > >> > should > >> >> be a part of Pakistan. > >> >>> > >> >>> I am sure you did not mean to equate > the > >> situations but I found it > >> > strange > >> >> that you mentioned in the same breath the > >> "peaceful... victory > >> > rally" > >> >> starting from Hazratbal with "siege > of Hazrat > >> Bal in the early > >> > '90s or > >> >> for that matter the siege of Charar > e-Sharif in > >> '95 or > >> >>> for that matter the Golden Temple in > the > >> '80s". > >> >>> > >> >>> In all three 'siege' > mentioned, there > >> were bands of armed > >> >> terrorists holed up inside the three > religious > >> places. Some might choose > >> > to > >> >> call them 'freedom fighters' or > >> "Mujahideen". > >> >>> > >> >>> Kshmendra > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> --- On Sat, 7/5/08, S. Jabbar > >> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> From: S. Jabbar > > >> >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle > near > >> Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among > >> > 14 > >> >> injured > >> >>> To: "Shivam Vij शिवम् > >> विज् " > >> >> , "sarai > list" > >> >> > >> >>> Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 1:07 PM > >> >>> > >> >>> I think you may want to ask why it > was > >> necessary to begin a victory > >> > rally > >> >>> from a religious place and how any of > us would > >> have reacted if Advani > >> > were > >> >>> to embark on another > 'victory' rally > >> from Somnath or Ayodhya. > >> >> These > >> >>> so-called victory rallies will only > add fuel > >> to the Jammu-Kashmir/ > >> >>> Hindu-Muslim conflagration. > >> >>> > >> >>> Hazrat Bal and the Jama Masjid are > not neutral > >> sites and have been > >> >>> politically charged ever since the > 1930s when > >> the Quit Kashmir > >> > movement > >> >> was > >> >>> launched against the Maharaja. What > must have > >> started off as an > >> > equally > >> >>> 'peaceful' gathering turned > violent > >> and a man was killed. > >> > That > >> >> was > >> >>> reason > >> >>> enough for mass rioting. You may be > aware of > >> the siege of Hazrat Bal > >> > in > >> >> the > >> >>> early '90s or for that matter the > siege of > >> Charar e-Sharif in > >> > '95 > >> >> or > >> >>> for > >> >>> that matter the Golden Temple in the > '80s. > >> >>> > >> >>> The Hurriyat is not unaware that the > state > >> cannot risk a religious > >> > site > >> >>> becoming another site of > contestation. It > >> would try and control what > >> > in > >> >> all > >> >>> likelihood would turn into yet > another > >> communally charged and violent > >> >> event. > >> >>> And yet it decided to go ahead. The > stakes > >> are high and I really > >> >> don't > >> >>> think anyone is above using religion > to > >> further their political ends. > >> >>> --sj > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> On 7/5/08 12:43 PM, "Shivam Vij > >> शिवम् > >> > विज्" > >> >>> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>>> This is what happens when you > prevent > >> people from addressing > >> >>>> peaceful > >> >>> gatherings... > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> o o o o > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah > among > >> >>>> 14 injured > >> >>> > >> >>> Special Correspondent, 5 July > >> >>>> 2008 > >> >>> > >> > http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/05/stories/2008070559931300.htm > >> >>> > >> >>> The clash > >> >>>> followed prayers to celebrate the > >> "victory" in the land > >> >> transfer > >> >>>> issue > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> SRINAGAR: Senior Hurriyat Conference > leader > >> Shabir Shah was among > >> >>>> 14 > >> >>> people injured on Friday, following a > scuffle > >> between police and > >> >>> supporters > >> >>>> of separatist leaders after they > offered > >> prayers at the > >> >>> Hazratbal shrine to > >> >>>> celebrate the recent > "victory" > >> in the land > >> >>> transfer issue. > >> >>> > >> >>> The call for > >> >>>> "Hazratbal Chalo" was > given by > >> Syed Ali Geelani, head of > >> >>> a faction of the > >> >>>> Hurriyat Conference and supported > by > >> Mirwaiz Umar > >> >>> Farooq, head of another. > >> >>>> However, both were placed under > house > >> arrest > >> >>> by the police. Mr. Shah and other > >> >>>> leaders, however, reached > Hazratbal > >> >>> amid heavy deployment of police and > >> >>>> paramilitary CRPF and offered > >> >>> prayers besides addressing the > people. > >> >>> > >> >>> Mr. Shah > >> >>>> and Ashraf Sehrai, another senior > leader > >> denounced the > >> >>> government for putting > >> >>>> Mr. Geelani and Mr. Mirwaiz under > house > >> arrest. > >> >>> > >> >>> A protester hurls back a tear > >> >>>> smoke shell towards the police. > >> >>> > >> >>> On their way back, Mr. Shabir Shah, > Mr. > >> >>>> Sehrai, Naeem Khan, Sheikh > >> >>> Aziz, Shafi Reshi, Firdous Shah and > others led > >> a > >> >>>> strong procession, > >> >>> which was lathi-charged. > >> >>> > >> >>> Fourteen people, including Mr. > >> >>>> Shabir Shah, were injured. He was > >> >>> shifted to the S.K. Institute of > Medical > >> >>>> Sciences (SKIMS) for > >> >>> treatment. > >> >>> > >> >>> Even as rumours spread that he was > critical, > >> >>>> Director SKIMS Abdul > >> >>> Hamid Zargar told The Hindu that he > was > >> stable. Another > >> >>>> procession > >> >>> taken from Jamia Masjid and led by > the head > >> imam, was dispersed > >> >>>> by > >> >>> police with smoke shells. Many people > were > >> arrested. Another > >> >>>> Hurriyat > >> >>> leader Javed Mir was arrested when he > tried to > >> take out a > >> >>>> procession > >> >>> towards Hazratbal in Khanyar > >> >>>> area. > >> >>> > _________________________________________ > >> >>> reader-list: an open > >> >>>> discussion list on media and the > city. > >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >>> To > >> >>>> subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe > >> >>> in > >> >>>> the subject header. > >> >>> To unsubscribe: > >> >>>> > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >>> List archive: > >> >>>> > >> > > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > _________________________________________ > >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list > on media > >> and the city. > >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe in > >> >>> the subject header. > >> >>> To unsubscribe: > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >>> List archive: > >> > > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > _________________________________________ > >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list > on media > >> and the city. > >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >>> To unsubscribe: > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >>> List archive: > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> > >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and > >> the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in > >> >> the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> List archive: > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and > >> the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> List archive: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > > >> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media > and the > >> city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > >> > the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media > and the > >> city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject > >> header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject > >> header. > >> To unsubscribe: > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rashneek at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 09:59:47 2008 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 09:59:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] History of Amarnath Pilgrimage Message-ID: <13df7c120807082129l1c9b333exac18e3962073059b@mail.gmail.com> There is ample and conclusive historical evidence to prove that the holy cave and the ice lingam were known to the people since very ancient times and have been continuously and regularly visited by pilgrims not only from Kashmir but also from different parts of India. While the earliest reference to Amarnath can be seen in the Nilamata Purana (v.1324), a 6th century Sanskrit text which depicts the religious and cultural life of early Kashmiris and gives Kashmir's own creation myth, the pilgrimage to the holy cave has been described with full topographical details in the Bhringish Samhita and the Amarnatha Mahatmya, both ancient texts said to have been composed even earlier. References to Amarnath, known have also been made in historical chronicles like the Rajatarangini and its sequels and several Western travellers' accounts also leaving no doubt about the fact that the holy cave has been known to people for centuries. The original name of the tirtha, as given in the ancient texts, is of course Amareshwara, Amarnath being a name given later to it. Giving the legend of the Naga Sushruvas, who in his fury burnt to ashes the kingdom of King Nara when he tried to abduct his daughter already married to a Brahmin youth, and after the carnage took his abode in the lake now known as Sheshnag (Kashmiri Sushramnag), Kalahana writes: "The lake of dazzling whiteness [resembling] a sea of milk (Sheshnag), which he created [for himself as residence] on a far off mountain, is to the present day seen by the people on the pilgrimage to Amareshwara."(Rajatarangini, Book I v. 267.Translation: M. A. Stein). This makes it very clear that pilgrims continued to visit the holy Amarnath cave in the 12th century, for Kalhana wrote his chronicle in the years1148-49. At another place in the Rajatarangini (Book II v. 138), Kalhana says that King Samdhimat Aryaraja (34 BCE-17CE) used to spend "the most delightful Kashmir summer" in worshiping a linga formed of snow "in the regions above the forests". This too appears to be a reference to the ice linga at Amarnath. There is yet another reference to Amareshwara or Amarnath in the Rajatarangini (Book VII v.183). According to Kalhana, Queen Suryamati, the wife of King Ananta (1028-1063), "granted under her husband's name agraharas at Amareshwara, and arranged for the consecration of trishulas, banalingas and other [sacred emblems]". In his Chronicle of Kashmir, a sequel to Kalhana's Rajatarangini, Jonaraja relates that that Sultan Zainu'l-abidin (1420-1470) paid a visit to the sacred tirtha of Amarnath while constructing a canal on the left bank of the river Lidder (vv.1232-1234). The canal is now known as Shah Kol. In the Fourth Chronicle named Rajavalipataka, which was begun by Prjayabhatta and completed by Shuka, there is a clear and detailed reference to the pilgrimage to the sacred site (v.841,vv. 847-849). According to it, in a reply to Akbar's query about Kashmir Yusuf Khan, the Mughal governor of Kashmir at that time, described among other things the Amarnath Yatra in full detail. His description shows that the not only was the pilgrimage in vogue in Akbar's time - Akbar annexed Kashmir in 1586 - but the phenomenon of waxing and waning of the ice linga was also well known. Amareshwar (Amarnath) was a famous pilgrimage place in the time of the Mughal emperor Shah Jahan also. In his eulogy of Shah Jahan's father-in-law Asif Khan, titled "Asaf Vilas", the famous Sanskrit scholar and aesthete Panditraj Jagannath makes clear mention of Amareshwara (Amarnath) while describing the Mughal garden Nishat laid out by Asif Khan. The King of gods Indra himself, he says, comes here to pay obeisance to Lord Shiva". As we well know Francois Bernier, a French physician accompanied Emperor Aurangzeb during his visit to Kashmir in 1663. In his book "Travels in Mughal Empire" he writes while giving an account the places he visited in Kashmir that he was "pursuing journey to a grotto full of wonderful congelations, two days journey from Sangsafed" when he "received intelligence that my Nawab felt very impatient and uneasy on account of my long absence". The "grotto" he refers to is obviously the Amarnath cave as the editor of the second edition of the English translation of the book, Vincient A. Smith makes clear in his introduction. He writes: "The grotto full of wonderful congelations is the Amarnath cave, where blocks of ice, stalagmites formed by dripping water from the roof are worshipped by many Hindus who resort here as images of Shiva….." Another traveler, Vigne, in his book "Travels in Kashmir, Ladakh and Iskardu" writes about the pilgrimage to the sacred spot in detail, clearly mentioning that "the ceremony at the cave of Amarnath takes place on the 15th of the Hindoo month of Sawan" and that "not only Hindoos of every rank and caste can be seen collecting together and traveling up the valley of Liddar towards the celebrated cave……" Vigne visited Kashmir after his return from Ladakh in 1840-41 and published his book in 1842. His book makes it very clear that the Amarnath Yatra drew pilgrims from the whole of India in his time and was undertaken with great enthusiasm.[image: Justify Full] Again, the great Sikh Guru Arjan Dev is said to have granted land in Amritsar for the ceremonial departure of Chari, the holy mace of Lord Shiva which marks the beginning of the Yatra to the Holy Cave. In 1819, the year in which the Afghan rule came to an end in Kashmir, Pandit Hardas Tiku "founded the Chhawni Anmarnath at Ram Bagh in Srinagar where the Sadhus from the plains assembled and where he gave them free rations for the journey, both ways from his own private resources", as the noted Kashmiri naturalist Pandit Samsar Chand Kaul has pointed out in his booklet titled "The Mysterious cave of Amarnath". Not only this, Amarnath is deeply enshrined in the Kashmiri folklore also as stories like that of Soda Wony clearly show. One can, therefore, conclude without any doubt that the Amaranth Yatra has been going on continuously for centuries along the traditional route of the Lidder valley and not a century and a half affair. May be during the Afghan rule when religious persecution of the Kashmiri Hindus was at its height and they were not allowed to visit their places of worship the pilgrimage was discontinued for about fifty or sixty years and during this period the flock of some shepherd may have strayed into the holy cave, but that in no way makes it of a recent origin or a show window of so-called Kashmiriat. -- Rashneek Kher Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 10:31:53 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:31:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Talibanisation of India In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807070922q532bbc92i6baa06d079959538@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690802220402n297cfab6jafb8b76cb8982251@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807070922q532bbc92i6baa06d079959538@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807072201p13ac3217me996a9c0e0996b@mail.gmail.com> Shivam , I know your love for anti establishment ....which is more compulsive . But dear friend , please verify your facts . Pls check who runs Dharmath Trust. You may have to take your words back. Pawan On 7/7/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > > Pandits allege that some in the Dharmarth Trust management want to sell > off > > the property of the temple, valued at Rs 300 crore. > > Sadly, things haven't moved forward on this. Perhaps Kashmiri Pandit > groups should protest against fellow Kashmiri Pandits who are selling > off temple properties. > > best > shivam > > On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 5:32 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > Hope something is done to address this issue. > > > > - Aditya Raj Kaul > > Campaign Blog - www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: Nishant Dudha > > Date: Feb 22, 2008 3:31 PM > > Subject: Fwd: The Talibanisation of India > > > > > > > > Regret that this document is lengthy. However, it contains some important > > facts and figures which should be available to each and every thinking > > Indian irrespective of their religion to let them know what a scourge > > Minortyism is and the potential it has for destroying our social fabric > > and fuelling the growth of Hindu Fanaticism. > > > > If you do not know me well enough or have not received any mails from me > in > > a long time, the reason why this comes your way is because I reckon, this > > impacts us all. > > > > Cheers! > > Nishant > > > > *Copies of this memo have been forwarded to the President and Prime > Minister > > of India as also to the members of the Indian Parliament for their > > information and necessary action.* > > > > > > > > *Letter to Shri Ghulam Nabi Azad, Chief Minister, Jammu & Kashmir State* > > > > > > > > *THE HINDU JAGRAN FORUM-USA* > > > > 3145 Gilbert Avenue, Roseburg, OR (USA) 97470 > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: *Massive destruction of temples in J&K amounts to state > sponsored > > Talibanization of the state: These religious structures must be > protected > > against the predatory & illegal Sales, demolition and Vandalism and a > Waqf > > like Hindu Board be formed for their upkeep and governance.* > > > > > > > > Hon'ble Chief Minister Azad, > > > > > > > > Through this memo we would like to express our deep > > disappointment, indignation and out right condemnation on behalf of a > > billion members strong worldwide Hindu fraternity about the self > > induced "*tactical > > failure*" of the successive J&K governments in protecting the Hindu > > community of Kashmir. Encouraged by the anti-secular, anti-minority and > > Mogul like discriminative policies of the state government. Now these > > Islamists, > > who drove the non-Muslims out of the Kashmir region, have embarked upon > the > > illegal sale of Hindu temples and their properties. > > > > > > > > All these criminal activities by the Islamists represent the > > extension of their foreign inspired "*civilizational* *war*" undertaken > to > > remove all traces of the historical Hindu past in the vale of Kashmir. > > Massive protests by the remaining less than 5,000 Kashmiri Pandits in the > > valley against criminally altering the socio-cultural complexion of > Kashmir > > has been of no avail. On the contrary these extremely vulnerable > non-Muslim > > Kashmiris have been exposed to serious threats by a very powerful > "*Islamic > > Land Mafia*" that if they do not stop protesting they would face dire > > consequences like the rest of the exiled Pandit community. > > > > > > > > We have been given to understand that powerful interests in > the > > Muslim dominated State Legislature including the *Islamic Land Mafia*, > > scuttled the legislation that was supposed to stop the illegal sale > and/or > > destruction of Hindu religious structures. Despite the state > > government's "*verbal > > assurances*" to protect temples & their properties nothing has been done > to > > save them. Even the promise to bring in legislation during the recent > > assembly session to prevent sale of such properties was not fulfilled and > > the legislature was allowed to adjourn sine die without the introduction > of > > the promised bill (attachment A). Obviously the assurance by the state > > authorities has simply proved to be yet another tactic for buying time > and > > doing nothing. > > > > > > > > * 1) Govt. re-built Cherar-e-Shareef why not Hindu temples?* > > > > Chief Minister Azad when the Pakistani and indigenous Islamic > > terrorists burnt and destroyed the holy shrine at Cherar-e-Shareef > > responding to the public outcry the Indian as well as Kashmir governments > > agreed to rebuild the shrine. Thereupon a team of engineering specialists > > was detailed to visit some of the major Islamic states in Central Asian > > region for examining their mosques in an attempt to select one of the > best > > of them as a model for building the new shrine at Cherar-e-Shareef. In > the > > final analysis that is exactly what was done. Based on this experience > the > > question that arises now is: if the officials could go to that extent for > > pleasing and or appeasing the Muslim community why can't they re-build > Hindu > > temples destroyed in the wake of ethnic cleansing unleashed by the local > and > > foreign Jihadists? > > > > > > > > * 2) Govt. Talibanizing everything in Kashmir:* > > > > The former J&K Chief Minister Mufti Mohammad Sayeed's public > > declaration describing Hari Parbat as *'Koh-i-Maran'* in 2005 could only > be > > termed as a shot in the arm of '*talibanization*' by the coalition > > government. It is believed that the misguided Congress party has been > > extending its tacit and full support to the People's Democratic Party > (of > > Mehbooba Mufti) – the political outfit that has been aggressively engaged > in > > systematically destroying the symbols of historical importance, cultural > > pluralism and talibanizing everything in Kashmir," (attachment B). > > > > > > > > * 3) Hindu temples being destroyed on at an > unprecedented Scale:* > > > > The process of desecration, loot, vandalizing and destruction > of > > temples has continued under the anti-Hindu Islamic rule through > generations > > with intent to wipe out all traces of religious and cultural symbols of > > Hindus. These targets besides the temples included libraries, > universities > > and ashrams. After India achieved freedom and Kashmir acceded to the > Union > > of India in 1947 the destruction and desecration of temples under the new > > Islamic regimes wearing secular turbans received added impetus and > > acceleration. Temple lands, cremation grounds, etc. of Hindus were > usurped > > and utilized for expansion of the Islamic populace. The famous > Bhairavnath > > temple of Chattabal, Srinagar was locked up by the police. The judicial > case > > pending in court concerning this temple was never allowed to be decided. > > Precious lands around Hari Parbat hill, Durganag temple of Srinagar and > > lands at several Hindu places of worship in the Valley were slowly and > > steadily turned into lands under occupation of the Muslim trusts > > (Maqboozai-Ahali-Islam). > > > > > > > > In 1967, Shivala temple, Chotta Nazar, Srinagar was desecrated. > > Again in 1984 Shri Hanuman temple at Hari Singh High Street was damaged > and > > in the same year Arya Samaj temple of Wazir Bagh, Srinagar was burnt > down. > > In view of the Islamic fundamentalist conspiracy against Hindus in > general > > and unqualified support for their plans from across the border, the law > and > > order situation in the Valley since 1986 deteriorated progressively and > > temple desecration became the order of the day. Here are some of the > glaring > > examples that defy and shred into a million pieces the tall claims made > by > > the Muslim leaders of Kashmir about their dedication and adherence to > > nationalism, multiculturalism, secularism, Kashmiriyat and religious > > freedom: > > > > > > > > A) In February 1986 some 39 temples were destroyed in Anantnag, > > Srinagar, Budgam, Kupwara and Baramula districts (attachment C). > > > > > > > > B) From 1987 to 1990 at least fifteen temples were destroyed > > (attachment C). > > > > > > > > * C) Temples desecrated and damaged in Kashmir from 1990 to > > December 1992* (attachment C) > > > > 1. DASHNAMI AKHARA, SRINAGAR > > 2. GANPATYAR TEMPLE > > 3. RAGHUNATH MANDIR, SRINAGAR > > 4. SHIVA TEMPLE, JAWAHAR NAGAR, SRINAGAR > > 5. HANUMAN MANDIR, SRINAGAR > > 6. SHIVA TEMPLE, BARBAR SHAH, SRINAGAR > > 7. JAI DEVI TEMPLE, BIJBEHARA > > 8. VIJESHWAR TEMPLE, BIJBEHARA > > 9. SHIVA MANDIR, BIJBEHARA > > 10. RAGHUNATH TEMPLE, ANANTNAG > > 11. GAUTAM NAG TEMPLE, ANANTNAG > > 12. THREE TEMPLES OF LUKHBHAVAN, LARKIPURA, ANANTNAG > > 13. WANPOH MANDIR, ANANTNAG > > 14. SHAILPUTRI TEMPLE, BARAMULLA > > 15. DAYALGAM MANDIR, ANANTNAG > > 16. BHAIRAVANATH MANDIR, BARAMULLA > > 17. BHAIRAVANATH MANDIR, SOPORE > > 18. RUPABHAVANI MANDIR, VASAKURA > > 19. KHIRBHAVANI MANDIR, GANDERBAL > > 20. SHIVA TEMPLE, GANDERBAL > > 21. MATTAN TEMPLE, ANANTNAG > > > > > > > > D) The *Minister of State for Home Affairs, Shri M.M. Jacob > > disclosed in the Lok Sabha on 12-3-1993 that 38 Hindu places of worship > were > > damaged in J&K state, 13 in 1989, nine in 1990 and 16 in 1991.* > > > > > > > > E) There are reports of further destruction of some 39 temples > in > > Kashmir after December 6, 1992 for which FIR were filed (attachment C). > > Please note that FIRs on all destruction cases were not filed with the > > authorities in view of the complicity of the administration and warnings > of > > retaliation against the complainants by the Islamic terrorists. > > > > > > > > F) According to local eye witnesses accounts there were > additional > > 38 temples that were vandalized after December 6, 1992 (attachment C) > > > > > > > > These examples represent only a fraction of the systematic mass > > destruction of temples in J&K after independence of India when the > Islamists > > assumed the total and unfettered control of the state. > > > > > > > > *4) The Indian Parliament adopted a law in 1991 specifically > > requiring that* – "the status of religious places, as on August 15, 1947 > > shall be retained". This pre-emptive measure was taken by the national > > legislature anticipating possible dishonorable designs of trouble makers > and > > anti- national elements in various administrations. A faithful > > implementation of these laws will require assuring the security and > > restoration of the community based management of Hindu temples and their > > estates. > > > > > > > > Sayeed had on June 20 described Hari Parbat as *'Koh-i-Maran'* > and > > a ministerial colleague of his had called Shankaracharya Hill *'Sulaiman > > Teng'*. Have these short sighted Jihadis ever imagined as to what might > > happen if the Indian nation, which is more than 83% Hindu, was to enforce > > similar communal, vindictive and religious based punitive policies in > India > > and start undoing what the successive tyrannical Islamic regimes have > done > > to the Hindu nation? From that stand point aren't these fundamentalist, > > irresponsible street politicians playing with the lives and welfare of > the > > 140 million Muslims of India? > > > > > > > > * 5) Mr. Chief Minister, government's indifference towards the > > temple security and their functioning has been termed as its support to > > persecution of Hindus and denial of their freedom of religion:* Govt. > must > > realize that the temples and their endowments have been built over the > > centuries by our forefathers and therefore, it is the community which is > > their real owner and which must have the final say in the management and > > utilization of temple resources. > > > > > > > > Under the present circumstances it is obligatory upon the Govt. > as > > envisaged by the above referred Act passed by the Indian Parliament to > > maintain the integrity of religious entities as it stood in 1947. Any > > deviation from that will clearly be violation of the national law and the > > will unambiguously expressed by the Indian Parliament. Therefore, it is > > incumbent upon the Govt. to restore all the destroyed, vandalized, looted > > and desecrated temples and their properties to their glory as it existed > in > > 1947 and hand them over to the Hindu community. Any thing less than that > > will be unacceptable. > > > > > > > > * 6) Formation of a Waqf like autonomous Hindu Board for temples > > governance under the Hindu community's guidance:* Mr. Chief Minister, we > > strongly believe that for social issues, religious affairs, community > > services and temple administration there must be a representative and an > > autonomous Hindu Board with full jurisdiction over temple governance and > > management. Accordingly we suggest that the representatives of shrines, > > temples, Hindu community and state and national religious leaders, be > > motivated to convene an assembly where they could be asked to take charge > of > > clearly defining legal and religious framework for the community > governance > > of temples and other religious places in the state. Since the universal > > right of freedom to manage religious places is available to the Muslim > > community which constitutes the majority in your state, there is > absolutely > > no justification to deny it to Hindus? > > > > > > > > * 7) The Govt. must make room for community's vital role in the > > interim temple management through Hindu Advisory Councils:* Such > Councils > > could play a role in oversight and decision making process of the > endowments > > department and temple Trusts, where Councils elected or nominated by the > > Community and state and national religious leaders could shoulder these > > responsibilities. Additionally these Councils could also stop > desecration > > and decimation of the religious infrastructure by bringing these issues > to > > the notice of the Govt. and the public, and till an autonomous Board is > > constituted for taking over the charge, like the Waqf Board. > > > > > > > > * 8) Hindus as a minority community in J&K need and must get > > special protection:* In view of the internationally recognized ethnic > > cleansing and genocide of Hindus in Kashmir it would have been most > > desirable if the J&K Govt. had brought into play a policy of special > > protection as well as financial support to the Hindus who are in a > minority > > - on the same basis as Muslims are allowed in the rest of India. We > regret > > to say that Hindus have been effectively cleansed out of the Kashmir > Valley, > > disenfranchised and now the focus seems to be on cleansing them out of > Jammu > > as well. The calculated lack of action by the state in this regard seems > to > > effectively contribute to the realization of the Jihadists objectives of > the > > talibanization of the state. > > > > > > > > * 9) Chief Minister Azad, for a starter may we request your > urgent > > attention for protecting Hindu temples and Hindu community properties* > from > > illegal sales and encroachment by urgently passing the Kashmiri Hindus > > shrines and religious places Bill and take other administrative measures > > like formation of a Waqf- like Hindu Board for their protection, > > preservation and development. This will be in keeping with: a) high > > standards of ethics, b) norms and practices in all open and democratic > > societies; and, c) the secular Constitution of India. > > > > > > > > Needless to say that inaction by the state and continuing > > demolition of Hindu religious infrastructure carries with it a serious > > potential for a backlash with possibility of horrific consequences. The > > privileges enjoyed by the Muslims as a minority community in India could > > also become a subject matter of controversy if Hindus are continually > > persecuted in the Muslim majority J&K state. It is also relevant to point > > out that most of the budgetary expenditures in the J&K state are gifted > by > > the Indian Govt. with taxes mostly paid by Hindus. Surely these taxpayers > do > > not fund the Kashmir Govt. so it could destroy Hinduism and achieve > forced > > talibanization of the state. > > > > > > > > Thank you Mr. Chief Minister and we are looking forward to your > > response and prompt action towards resolving this explosive situation. > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Jagan Kaul > > Krishan Bhatnagar > > Hindu Jagran Forum (USA) > > > > email: *krishan.kb at verizon.net > > *February 21, 2008 > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > > > > > > Attachment A > > > > > > > > *J&K temples being sold, allege Pandits ** > > ** > > *Kavita Suri > > > > Statesman, Feb 11, 2008 > > > > > > JAMMU, Feb. 10: Kashmiri Pandits allege that the Muslim-majority > government > > in Jammu and Kashmir is ignoring illegal sale of Hindu temples and other > > community properties in the state. > > Less than 5,000 Kashmiri Pandits who live in the Kashmir valley say that > > their resistance to sale of temple properties has exposed them to threats > > from a very powerful land mafia. Pandits allege they have been warned > > against protesting, or face the consequences. > > > > > > These Pandits say that despite the state government's "verbal assurances" > to > > protect temple properties, nothing is being done to save them. A promise > to > > bring in legislation during the recent assembly session to prevent sale > of > > such properties was not fulfilled. To the disappointment of Pandits, the > > legislature was adjourned sine die without introduction of the bill. > > > > > > The Pandits say there is more to the non-introduction of the Bill than > meets > > the eye. They claim that powerful interests, including a land mafia, > > scuttled the legislation. > > > > > > The ground realities in Kashmir are alarming. The Dharmarth Trust headed > by > > Dr Karan Singh has locked up an ancient and historical temple Ram jee of > > Barbar Shah. This is the first time in its known history that the temple > has > > been locked. Security forces living in the adjacent dharmashala have been > > told not to enter the temple precincts. > > > > > > "For all these years, it was a routine with us, the few Kashmiri Pandits > > living in the Valley, to come here every Sunday for a get-together, make > > prasad and distribute it among devotees. But the trust management, with > the > > help of the state government, locked up the temple and no one has been > > allowed to enter for the past month," said Mr Vijay Sas of the Kashmiri > > Pandit Sangarsh Samiti (KPSS), Kashmir. > > > > > > Pandits allege that some in the Dharmarth Trust management want to sell > off > > the property of the temple, valued at Rs 300 crore. In fact, some of them > > allege that the property will be sold to an influential Muslim living in > the > > Valley. The property located just across the Rambagh Bridge and opposite > the > > Metrological Department is at a prime location. > > > > > > Inside the huge plot of land, there is an ancient Shiva temple, said to > be > > around 1200 years old. The lingam is said to be more than 8.5 feet high. > > > > > > > > The KPSS filed a PIL in the Supreme Court and was asked to file a fresh > case > > in the concerned High Court. A case is already pending in the High Court > of > > Jammu and Kashmir, Srinagar Wing. > > > > > > "Since January 2008, another incident of sale of our religious and > community > > property has surfaced in Kashmir. It is the sale of DAV School in > Rainawari > > by one Roshan Lal Raina who was just a teacher in that school but turned > > into a broker," said Mr Sas. > > > > > > > > Pandits allege that the sale took place at the behest of an influential > > official attached to the Director-General of Police, J&K. > > > > > > "KPSS has taken the legal course in the matter but we are worried," said > a > > displaced pandit. But they hope the court will intervene and stay the > sale > > of temples. > > > > > > "The problem is that the national media is not interested in the story > while > > the local Muslim-majority media does not care," said Mr Sas. > > > > > > "If the government fails to bring a Bill in the ongoing session of the > state > > Assembly to ban sale of temples and other religious properties, we will > > proceed on a fast unto death," KPSS president Mr Sanjay Tickoo said. > > > > > > > > http://www.thestatesman.org/page.arcview.php?clid=2&id=216888&usrsess=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > ====================================== > > > > Attachmant B > > > > > > > > *Mufti govt 'talibanising everything': BJP* > > > > Source: PTI > > Publication: Rediff on Net > > Date: July 2, 2005 > > URL: http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/jul/02mufti.htm > > > > Taking exception to Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Mufti Mohammad > Sayeed > > describing Hari Parbat as 'Koh-i-Maran', the Bharatiya Janata Party on > > Saturday accused the coalition government of supporting 'talibanisation'. > > > > "The BJP is of the opinion that the Congress party is giving full support > to > > the People's Democratic Party (of Mehbooba Mufti) that has been > > systematically destroying the symbols of historical importance and > > talibanising everything in Kashmir," state unit BJP vice president and > > spokesperson Hari Om told reporters in Jammu. > > > > The BJP claimed to have 'definite information' that a few days ago, > > officials from the state and New Delhi held a meeting in Srinagar about a > > proposal to change names of some landmarks in the state. > > > > Sayeed had on June 20 described Hari Parbat as 'Koh-i-Maran' and a > > ministerial colleague of his had called Shankaracharya Hill 'Sulaiman > Teng', > > Hari Om said, adding that the BJP rejected outright Pradesh Congress > > Committee chief Peerzada Sayeed's assurance that there was no proposal to > > rename the two hills. > > > > ============================================ > > > > > > > > Attachmant C > > > > > > > > *Destruction of Cultural Symbols :** > > Reprehensible History of Fanatic Vandalism* > > > > Organiser, November 14, 2004 > > > > Desecration, damage and destruction of temples is not a new and unusual > > phenomenon. The process has been continuously going on ever since Kashmir > > passed into the political domination of Muslim rulers in the first > quarter > > of the fourteenth century. > > > > Islam, like other Semitic religions enjoins upon the faithfuls to expand > > their religion by proselytising the heathens, infidels and kafirs > > (non-believers) to their faith to gain religious merit. Jehad or holy war > is > > the instrument that is used for proselytisation. The Muslim rulers of > > Kashmir, the Mughals and Pathans made full use of their political > authority > > to effect conversion of Hindus of the Valley. To achieve the objectives, > it > > became imperative for them to wipe out all traces of religious and > cultural > > symbols of Hindus, which included their temples, libraries, universities > and > > ashrams. > > > > In Kashmir, gunpowder was used for the first time, not for fighting a > war, > > but for destroying massive Hindu stone temples. When it was felt that the > > fissionable material was not available in a sufficient quantity for > > iconoclasm, the nearby jungles were cut down and used for setting on fire > > the giant stone structures of the Hindu temples. By excessive heat the > > stones burst, broke away and these gigantic structures crumbled in the > fire > > that spread through the length and breadth of Kashmir. The ruins of > Martand, > > Avantipur, Devar, etc. are mute witnesses of the depredation. > > > > *Temples** Vandalised in February 1986* > > > > *ANANTNAG DISTRICT:* > > > > 1. > > > > Anantnag Town: > > > > Two temples damaged and one looted. > > > > 2. > > > > Achhabal: > > > > One temple desecrated, shit thrown on idols. > > > > 3. > > > > Moripura: > > > > One temple demolished. > > > > 4. > > > > Sagam: > > > > One temple partially burnt. > > > > 5. > > > > Naogam: > > > > One temple partially burnt. > > > > 6. > > > > Telvani: > > > > One temple partially burnt. > > > > 7. > > > > Gautamnag: > > > > One two-storeyed temple burnt and a dharamshala stoned. > > > > 8. > > > > Krangsoo: > > > > Pujari Baba of a temple beaten. > > > > 9. > > > > Akura (Mattan): > > > > One temple and its entire property looted and shed set on fire. > > > > 10. > > > > Dialgam: > > > > One temple heavily damaged by stoning. > > > > 11. > > > > Salar: > > > > One temple set on fire. > > > > 12. > > > > Aishmuqam: > > > > One temple set on fire. > > > > 13. > > > > Bijbehara town: > > > > Two temples completely looted; ancient idol valued at more than Rs 10 > lakh > > broken; Jai Devi temple desecrated and idol stolen. > > > > 14. > > > > Wanpoh (Gasipura): > > > > Two temples and samadhi of Swami Dama Kak completely burnt. > > > > 15. > > > > Dhanav (Bogund): > > > > Two temples and one dharamshala burnt. > > > > 16. > > > > Chogam: > > > > One temple stoned; its doors, windows and three pillars broken. > > > > 17. > > > > Verinag: > > > > One temple on the parikrama of the holy spring damaged, doors broken, > idols > > thrown into the spring. Pawan Sandhya, a religious teerth, converted into > a > > place for construction of mosque. > > > > 18. > > > > Larkipora: > > > > Three temples of Goddess Durga, Siddha Lakshmi and Shiva completely > burnt; > > idols broken into pieces. > > > > 19. > > > > Fatehpura: > > > > One temple completely burnt alongwith its entrance gate; ancient Shiva > idol > > broken into pieces. > > > > 20. > > > > Quill (Pulwama): > > > > One temple damaged partially. > > > > 21. > > > > Trisal: > > > > One temple stoned; compound wall of another temple damaged. > > > > 22. > > > > Pawan Sandhya: > > > > Converted into mosque. > > > > *SRINAGAR DISTRICT:* > > > > 23. > > > > Ganpatyar (Srinagar): > > > > Temple heavily stoned. > > > > 24. > > > > Jawahar Nagar: > > > > Shiva Mandir desecrated and damaged; its property brought out and > consigned > > to flames. > > > > 25. > > > > Maisuma: > > > > Dashnami akhara, from where Charri Mubarak leaves for holy Amarnath cave > > burnt down. > > > > 26. > > > > Raghunath Mandir: > > > > Damaged by stoning. > > > > 27. > > > > Tulamulla: > > > > One temple in the village burnt. > > > > 28. > > > > Waskura: > > > > The famous temple of Mata Rupa Bhawani partially burnt. > > > > 29. > > > > Gandherbal: > > > > Two temples burnt and two temples damaged. > > > > *BUDGAM DISTRICT:* > > > > 30. > > > > Yachhgam: > > > > One temple partially damaged. > > > > 31. > > > > Badgam town: > > > > Sharda temple damaged. > > > > 32. > > > > Chadura: > > > > One temple damaged. > > > > *KUPWARA DISTRICT:* > > > > 33. > > > > Tekpora: > > > > One temple burnt. > > > > 34. > > > > Lalpura: > > > > One temple burnt. > > > > 35. > > > > Handwara: > > > > One temple damaged. > > > > *BARAMULLA DISTRICT:* > > > > 36. > > > > Baramulla town: > > > > One temple partially damaged. > > > > 37. > > > > Venkura: > > > > One temple fully damaged. > > > > 38. > > > > Sopore: > > > > One temple partially damaged. > > > > 39. > > > > Bandipora: > > > > One temple partially burnt. > > > > > > > > After India achieved freedom and Kashmir acceded to the Union of India, > > temple desecration was resumed. Temple lands, cremation grounds, etc. of > > Hindus were usurped for expansion of Islam. The famous Bhairavnath temple > of > > Chattabal, Srinagar was locked up by the police. The judicial case > pending > > in court concerning this temple was never allowed to be decided. Precious > > lands around Hari Parbat hill, Durganag temple of Srinagar and lands at > > several Hindu places of worship in the Valley were slowly and steadily > > turned into lands under occupation of Muslim trusts > (Maqboozai-Ahali-Islam). > > In 1967, Shivala temple, Chotta Nazar, Srinagar was desecrated. Again in > > 1984 Shri Hanuman temple at Hari Singh High Street was damaged and in the > > same year Arya Samaj temple of Wazir Bagh, Srinagar was burnt down. From > > 1986, the law and order situation in the Valley deteriorated day by day > and > > temple desecration became the order of the day. > > > > > > > > After India achieved freedom and Kashmir acceded to the Union of India, > > temple desecration was resumed. Temple lands, cremation grounds, etc. of > > Hindus were usurped for expansion of Islam. > > > > *Temples** desecrated, damaged or destroyed in response to community > calls > > for Jehad from 1987 to 1990* > > > > 1. > > > > Sri Puran Raja Bhairav at Hawal, Srinagar (completely burnt). > > > > 2. > > > > Vandev Mandir, Hari Parbat (completely burnt). > > > > 3. > > > > Kathlishwar Mandir, Zaindar Mohalla, Srinagar (partly damaged). > > > > 4. > > > > Gouri Shanker Mandir, Kani-Kadal (damaged). > > > > 5. > > > > Somyar Mandir, Habba Kaddal shopping complex (completely burnt). > > > > 6. > > > > Shiva Mandir, Shetalnath, Srinagar (burnt). > > > > 7. > > > > Shiva Mandir, Malapora, Srinagar (burnt). > > > > 8. > > > > Shailputri Asthapan Mandir, Baramulla (burnt). > > > > 9. > > > > Gautam Nag Mandir, Anantnag (attacks have been frequent). > > > > 10. > > > > Raghunath Mandir, Anantnag (attacks have been frequent). > > > > 11. > > > > Tikipora Mandir, Kupwara. > > > > 12. > > > > Sri Lakshmi Narayan Mandir, Bulbul Lankar, Srinagar (ancient priceless > idol > > removed by breaking one of the temple walls). > > > > 13. > > > > Temple at Shopian with four buildings and shopping complex burnt. The > mahant > > at Napli mercilessly beaten; a south Indian sadhu assisting the mahant > was > > asked to kill a cow. Pine, walnut, apple, kikar and poplar trees spread > over > > 18 kanals of temple land to a great extent were destroyed. The sadhu > > identified some people of Danda Mohalla, mainly one Hussan Dand and Kuda > > Dand, leading the mob besides Jamaat-i-Islami workers on carnage. > > > > 14. > > > > Idols in Shiva Mandir, Batayar (desecrated). > > > > 15. > > > > Holy spring with Shiva idol desecrated at Khrew, resulting in > Hindu-Muslim > > conflict in the village. > > > > > > > > *Temples** desecrated and damaged in Kashmir from 1990 to December 1992* > > > > *1. DASHNAMI AKHARA, SRINAGAR* > > On the opposite side of the shopping complex of WAKF building, housing a > > library, reading room and an office of Jamaat-i-Islami, lies the age-old > > akhara in Badshah Chowk, Srinagar. The temple in the akhara is surrounded > by > > three storeyed shopping-cum-hotel-cum-office complex on three sides. > There > > is a beautiful park in the premises, dharamshalas for sadhus, residence > of > > the mahant, etc. The akhara has provided a vast area to Suraj Transport > > Company for use as godown and parking space on rent. The akhara has been > a > > chronic eyesore to the Jamaat-i-Islami. It was attacked countless times > but > > in early 1990, mobs forced entry into the premises causing a devastating > > fire, and loss of property in crores in godowns and a portion of mahant's > > residence. CRPF suffered heavy injuries while protecting the temple. > > > > *2. GANPATYAR TEMPLE* > > Ganpatyar has been attracting mob attacks right from 1953. Al-Aksa > episode, > > Satanic Verses, Zia's death, fall of East Pakistan, defeat of Pakistan in > > cricket, etc. have been the causes. From the onset of insurgency it was > > stoned, attacked by bomb blasts and rockets on various occasions but CRPF > in > > one of its dharamshalas saved the shrine at great cost. > > > > *3. RAGHUNATH MANDIR, SRINAGAR* > > The school caught fire when the dharamshala of the temple was set on fire > in > > early 1990 while worshipping in the temple was forbidden. However, the > > worshippers refused to stop worship. The premises were set on fire. > > > > *4. SHIVA TEMPLE, JAWAHAR NAGAR, SRINAGAR* > > The property in the dharamshala was brought out along with some puja > > material and idols from the temple; some removed and some consigned to > > flames. > > > > *5. HANUMAN MANDIR, SRINAGAR* > > Desecrated long before the start of insurgency which necessitated > > round-the-clock CRPF guard. The massive Panchamukhi Hanuman idol suffered > > some damage in early 1990. > > > > *6. SHIVA TEMPLE, BARBAR SHAH, SRINAGAR* > > It was desecrated a number of times. What is desecrated is not safe. > > Desecration itself is heinous sacrilege. > > > > *7. JAI DEVI TEMPLE, BIJBEHARA* > > Desecrated, idols stoned, compound wall broken in 1986. > > > > *8. VIJESHWAR TEMPLE, BIJBEHARA* > > Night soil was thrown on 10 Shiva lingas inside the temple in 1986, and > > compound wall broken. > > > > *9. SHIVA MANDIR, BIJBEHARA* > > Ancient idols valued over Rs 10 lakhs in the shrine were looted in 1986. > > > > *10. RAGHUNATH TEMPLE, ANANTNAG* > > According to Mahant Sukhram and other sources, mostly Muslims, it > suffered > > nine bomb attacks, seven blasts in police station, Anantnag. Refer to FIR > > No. 307/427 dated 9-1-91. > > > > *11. GAUTAM NAG TEMPLE, ANANTNAG* > > The double-storey temple (60 x 40) was burnt to ashes in presence of > > homeguard personnel and property loss was estimated to the tune of Rs 28 > > lakhs, leaving aside priceless ancient manuscripts in Sanskrit and > Sharda. > > The orchard on 145 canals of land with thirty thousand fruit trees was > > mercilessly attacked by fanatical mobs, leaving hardly three thousand > trees > > to survive. > > > > *12. THREE TEMPLES OF LUKHBHAVAN, LARKIPURA, ANANTNAG* > > Damaged in 1986. Subsequently repaired. Dharamshala burnt, temple > suffered > > some damage again in 1992. > > > > *13. WANPOH MANDIR, ANANTNAG* > > The idols have been desecrated publicly in respect of this shrine on > > 21-2-1992, according to sources. > > > > *14. SHAILPUTRI TEMPLE, BARAMULLA* > > Damaged in 1990. > > > > *15. DAYALGAM MANDIR, ANANTNAG* > > It was stoned heavily but was somehow not razed to the ground. > > > > *16. BHAIRAVANATH MANDIR, BARAMULLA* > > Damaged in 1990. > > > > *17. BHAIRAVANATH MANDIR, SOPORE* > > Desecrated and damaged. > > > > *18. RUPABHAVANI MANDIR, VASAKURA* > > Idols, ashram utensils removed. Night soil thrown on the steps in early > > 1990, a dozen times. Protesting Hindus of the vicinity mercilessly > beaten. > > > > *19. KHIRBHAVANI MANDIR, GANDERBAL* > > According to B.G. Verghese, "Its origin goes to epic times. The security > > forces in its precincts attracted rocket attacks on April 4, 1991, which > > chipped some concrete off the outer gate. It again came under attack on > May > > 4. Bullet marks can be seen on the other structures." > > > > *20. SHIVA TEMPLE, GANDERBAL* > > Desecrated and damaged. > > > > *21. MATTAN TEMPLE, ANANTNAG* > > A mob entered the premises, after namaz, claiming it to be a Muslim > shrine. > > > > *Minister of State for Home, Shri M.M. Jacob told the Lok Sabha on > 12-3-1993 > > that 38 places of worship were damaged in J&K state, 13 in 1989, nine in > > 1990 and 16 in 1991.* > > > > *DETAILS OF THE TEMPLES DESTROYED IN J&K STATE AFTER DECEMBER 6, 1992* > > > > *DISTRICT ANANTANAG* > > > > *S.No* > > > > *Date* > > > > *Description of Temple* > > > > *FIR No.* > > > > *Police Station* > > > > 1. > > > > 8.12.1992 > > > > > > > > > > - -- > > "The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and > > write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn." > > Alvin Toffler > > > > http://wanderlustt.blogspot.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From siddharth.narrain at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 13:49:35 2008 From: siddharth.narrain at gmail.com (siddharth narrain) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:49:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Friday Discussion at ALF In-Reply-To: <52cddec0807090117u12c8d0b0g131dfc42594be271@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d1b11680807082236s45511dcen14e201377f9c5105@mail.gmail.com> <52cddec0807090117u12c8d0b0g131dfc42594be271@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1773a06d0807090119gf100cb6yd867704c98c89da@mail.gmail.com> *Alternative Law Forum * * presents Talk by Rajeshwari Sunder Rajan, *is a feminist scholar and researcher, based in Bangalore and also teaching in universities abroad. She is the author of Real and Imagined Women: Gender, Culture, and Postcolonialism, *Scandal of the state: ** Women, Law and Citizenship in Postcolonial India** *and editor of Signposts: Gender Issues in Post-Independence India. on * The Burden of Postcolonial Writing in India: The Novel in English as Ruling Class Fiction **The talk will be followed by discussion** * * Time:* 6:00 pm * Venue:* Alternative Law Forum 122/4, Infantry Road, opposite Infantry wedding hall, Bangalore Nearest bus stand: Shivaji Nagar Bus depot Please spread the word and see you there! -- www.altlawforum.org -- Alternative Law Forum No 4, 3rd Cross, 8th Main Vasant Nagar Bangalore 560 052 phone number: 080-22356845 From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 13:56:13 2008 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:56:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] State seeks changes in draft CZM provisions Message-ID: <3457ce860807090126u63cc0ba0p37f827dd90b2b44b@mail.gmail.com> State seeks changes in draft CZM provisions Staff Reporter http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/09/stories/2008070955151000.htm VS says draft notification has proposals harmful to fisher folk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 'Investors will exploit coastal areas' Fisher folk, trade unions concerned -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- V.S. Achuthanandan THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: The State government is of the view that loopholes in the Centre's draft Coastal Zone Management (CZM) notification should be plugged to prevent exploitation of coastal areas and their resources, Chief Minister V.S. Achuthanandan has said. Replying to questions in the Assembly on Tuesday, he said the State government was against provisions that could marginalise the fisher folk or those associated with the sea and coast and their livelihood and employment. The draft notification had loopholes that could enable investors in the tourism and construction sectors to exploit the coastal areas and their resources. Mr. Achuthanandan said the fisher folk and representatives of trade unions had raised their concern over some provisions. The government conveyed the drawbacks to the Centre on June 26. In a written reply to another question, he said construction of houses for fisher folk and other structures could not be taken up within 200 metres from the high tide line under the Coastal Regulation Zone III rules. To mitigate the problems faced by the fisher folk living near the coast, the State had asked the Centre to revise the rules. From vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com Wed Jul 9 14:31:30 2008 From: vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 02:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] great idea In-Reply-To: <36514.58148.qm@web53607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <109193.19941.qm@web57701.mail.re3.yahoo.com> NAY-TIONALISM  ?.....great idea!, i think all of us should support it. NAY-TIONALISM will lead to 'borderless world' sounds fantastic!   first step towards attaining this goal of 'borderless world' will be to call back our stupid soldiers who are sacrificing their lives (and wasting our money) in guarding our nation.    then bangladeshis  will occupy indian territory from eastern side, poor  pakistan will get free hand for exploding bombs whenever and wherever they want. china will eagerly hug northeastern provinces.   i think, our freedom fighters  were foolish people who wasted their lives in fighting with britishers. independance was not atall required as we don't believe in nationalism.   vedavati   --- On Wed, 7/9/08, Rahul Asthana wrote: From: Rahul Asthana Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured To: reader-list at sarai.net, "inder salim" Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008, 9:45 AM Dear Inder, I am also "indifferent to nationalism".With that out of the way,what do you propose we should campaign for,support,preach,do etc with respect to your pan national vision in general and Kashmir in particular?How can we bring your dream to fruition in Kashmir?In what way can we help Kashmiris and Kashmir and make a difference there? P.S.1 You don't have to answer this question if this cause is not important to you.Or maybe just answer it as an academic exercise. 2.Continuing to dream and write poetry and sing songs is also a valid answer,I will accept it. Thanks Rahul --- On Tue, 7/8/08, inder salim wrote: > From: inder salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 11:24 PM > Dear Rahul > have u ever wondered why there is a song called ' > imagine there is no country ' > and if it is just a song and everything else is rock solid, > then i > feel there is not even iron in the soul, > it is barren, and our head pieces is filled with staw.... > > now what is soul? whenever i go to Socretes as a > teacher i feel > the urge to question 'the state' endlessly ... > similarly when i read > myth , i see a good a king in the form of Raja Harish > Chander who > abandoned his throne for a word..... and again who is great > prince? I > think of Buddha.... i think if one fills ones soul with > such a teacher > and such a king and prince then that 'iron' might > keep on coming and > going...dissolving with the fresh water of a country called > no-man's > land > > I think of Manto's Toba Tek Singh, in that there is a > mad character, > who has no place under the sun upon which is goverened by > laws and > systems.... but that his death between the boarders of two > countries > smashed nationalism in one go... i like the tools which rip > a word, a > system, a status quo...may be i am also mad.... > > but there is some method in this madness....and there are > many > practiontioners of this madness in our world.. these mad > people have > worked passionetly for the understnding of human being..... > they need > space to be.... > > further, when i say nationalism, i say NAY-TIONALISM... > this can be > the mantra....the mantra which restores the existential > dignity of a > human being.... > > France and Englad fought like mad dogs but today there is a > single > currency in europe... why can we dream something similar in > Aisa, > > i think Gandhi ji would be delighted to see that currency > without his > toothless image on it.... > > you said that i dislike nationalsim, i dont, i am > indifferent to nationalism.... > and when people who listens similar music too share halva > puri or > nihiri/paya they really share love, > > but you know how we oppose our women to marry with men of > other religion... > is that STATE you admire....which is busy playing vote bank > politics > in the name of democracy... > > now, i dont know what is the priorirty of issues in your > opinion..... > i think women's issues is as important as environmental > issues, which > is as important as ethics and morals which is as important > as respect > for the common man.... > > and above all, there is something called PAST which > surpasses our > written word...surpasses our written history...it is aobut > that > memory which is in the form of TIME embedded within us... > our > collective memory > > it is not about a slogan, saray jahan say > achha...unfortunately when > we sing it we sing 'the meaning', but not the > poem... > State officers and corrupt ministers of a country... > > i dont think i have been able to answer your question.. > because you > feel majority is with you...i am minority within the > minority within > the minority... > > so love > is > > > On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 8:25 PM, Rahul Asthana > wrote: > > Hi Inder, > > Your position of "not believing in > nationalism" is typical of many on this list.I am not > arguing for nationalism against anarchy. I do not think > there is anything noble in being a nationalist > \patriot. But I do realize the utilitarian value of the > concept of nation.Anyhow, lets for a while assume that your > idea of "not believing in the nationalism" is the > way to go. > > What do you suppose we should do now? Organize an > Indo-Pak concert where someone will sing "Imagine > there's no country" or perhaps Sayonee by Junoon > and then everyone will start hugging,kissing and dancing > kumbaya with each other, halwa poori or nihari\paya > will be distributed and all will go home and live happily > ever after. Is that likely to happen? > > A while back,when I was making the argument that > sovereign Kashmir is not a feasible state(for reasons that > I had given earlier),the arguments I got in response was > that I was not romantic enough,I had a diseased mind, > Kashmir is too beautiful to stay occupied etc etc.. Then > there was the usual "I dont believe in > nationalism". > > Your dislike of nationalism may be the principle > around which you frame your argument but THAT STATEMENT, BY > ITSELF CAN NOT BE YOUR ARGUMENT.If you can build any > realistic and pragmatic course of action around that > principle then you should forward it.Just chanting this > mantra of "not believing in nationalism",is > neither here nor there and would make you irrelevant.Till > the time that nation states are a reality you cant just > ignore them or wish them away. > > > > Regards > > Rahul > > > > --- On Tue, 7/8/08, inder salim > wrote: > > > >> From: inder salim > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; > Shabir Shah among 14 injured > >> To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:39 AM > >> dear kshmendra > >> > >> for now, all i want to say is that i am not for > any kind of > >> nationalism.... i dont know what that will lead > to, i think > >> it will be > >> perhpas better for humanity, if nation states > disappear > >> suddenly and > >> enable people to move freely on this planet > earth.... > >> > >> i have a dream, you may say it is utopian... so > what. > >> > >> desire for nation is not bad, i have huge > admiration for > >> people like > >> Bhagat Singh, but the the powers sturctures that > cling on > >> the that > >> state in the name of democracy or people is > fradulent. Now > >> dont tell > >> me that we helpless to not-to-see-the-other > >> > >> it is interesting to notice how people's > simple faith > >> gets translated > >> into something necessary costly rituals...say > prem > >> chand's Govdaan, > >> .. . i see misery for the innocent lot, and for > that i have > >> every > >> right to undermine, a state, a religion or an > >> identiy....and once it > >> becomes a system that gnaws the dignity > existential core > >> of human > >> being,..... i want to restore that > >> > >> one is free to remain glued to something as long > as it > >> keeps on > >> milking other's cow. that is why i talked > about morals > >> and ethics. > >> > >> now see, there is a great democracy in america and > england > >> but when i > >> comes to their foreign affairs they looks > barbarians.... > >> and i dont know how to admire their democratic > systems > >> endlessly if > >> there is no change.... right now, everyting is > stuck, > >> > >> just see, what their democracies did to afganistan > and > >> iraq. i have > >> more respect for a poor afgani who > >> has no choice but to shoot alongwith a taliban > commander > >> and work in > >> poppy fields in comparison to some one who is > drinking beer > >> in new > >> york while criticizing muslim fundamentalism.... > >> > >> in that sense, i have nothing against politics, > but against > >> the > >> polticians who are at the helm of affairs.....as > jean paul > >> sartre says > >> that politics enters through all the pores of your > >> body,....and > >> realization of that sensitizes me, realization of > that > >> reduces my > >> arrogance, and i think that is how i want to > understand > >> politics, > >> > >> and that way i know what is the meaning of GAME in > >> politics.... now you that.... > >> > >> now religion, i believe, > >> the state has no business to enter the affairs of > the > >> shrine.... why > >> on earth state should provide facilites to a > piligrim... > >> a true piligrim has to be really prepared , both > physically > >> and mentally.... > >> and above all, SHIVA i believe is about death > also... you > >> might be > >> knowing, there is a mountain , just one stop > before the > >> amarnath cave > >> which is called Bhairav Baal, and it was famous > for real > >> piligirms to > >> climb it and jump on the other side of it....a > true love of > >> shiva will > >> be quite educated and brave and should understand > the > >> significance of > >> death and sprituality in one go... > >> > >> i still dont understand how a shiva lover can > throw stones > >> at others, > >> or burn a tyre, if one goes by the kashmiri > philisophy of > >> shivaism > >> well you are within your rights to call it > politics, but i > >> see decadence in it > >> > >> at the best it is opportunism, and once it is so, > it is > >> free for all, > >> > >> once we realize the absence of morals and ethics > in our > >> political > >> acitivity, we are at the mercy of goons and the > politicians > >> who love > >> to make a fool of each one of us. > >> > >> about disrespect, just show me one communtiy, at > grass root > >> level, in > >> the world history which not suffered humiliation > at the > >> hands of their > >> rulers. > >> that is why i am not interested in those who > eulogise kings > >> and queens > >> for this or that.... people have suffered, even > when a > >> great king was > >> constructing a Taj mahal or making a great wall in > china, > >> same goes > >> for the construction of great temples and > mosques.......i > >> see pain of > >> a human being in the form of an monument, beauty > of it > >> comes next.... > >> > >> that way i see the possibity of a shift in > histroy, that > >> way we can > >> see the emergence of a new politics, a new way of > living, > >> beyond > >> mindsets and old designs , old territories.... > >> > >> my dear, that muse on the classical canvas died > long > >> ago.... we are > >> finished with waste land even, we have come to a > stage when > >> even > >> writing a poem is impossiblity.... > >> > >> politics is dead in that sense...the issue is > ethics, > >> environment, and > >> my favourite word 'love' is kicking > alive, > >> > >> with love and regards > >> is > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > >> wrote: > >> > Dear Inder Salim > >> > > >> > You say "i know you know well what i am > talking > >> about...." > >> > > >> > No Sir I do not. Either we are talking about > different > >> things or it must be the limitations of my > understanding. > >> > > >> > It must also be the limitations of my being > able to > >> express myself that you read meanings other than > what I > >> think I have placed in my words. > >> > > >> > - I ddear o not know what "GAMES" > you are > >> talking about. If you explain them in simple > words, I might > >> be able to comment > >> > > >> > - I spoke about "respect" for > >> "constancy" in "political > positions". > >> That could or could not translate into > "respect" > >> for the person. That also does not preclude the > ones being > >> talked about being political adversaries or being > enemies > >> of my country > >> > > >> > - Let me give another example. I see China > as being > >> (if not an enemy these days) inimical towards > India on many > >> fronts. Yet I have immense respect for China in > many > >> spheres. > >> > > >> > - Let me give another example. I see Pakistan > as > >> continuing to be an enemy of India. I have no > respect for > >> (I have contempt for) Pakistan's shifts over > Kashmir > >> especially in the context of it's duplicity > with the > >> "Hurriyat Pasand". Yet there are things > about and > >> from Pakistan I love. I love their Muslin and > Men's > >> Shalvaar Kameez, I love Mehdi Hassan and Nayyara > Noor and > >> Sabri Brothers, I love Faiz and Parveen Shakir and > Amjad > >> Islam Amjad > >> > > >> > - Saw your list of those you respect. I have > no > >> argument with you over that list. > >> > > >> > - You do not respect 'politicians'. > For me > >> that is too generalised a statement. Maybe I would > not > >> respect "some" or even "most" > >> politicians" but the political system is > essential (in > >> my opinion) to any organised society. Irrespective > of the > >> form of Government or quality of Governance, every > country > >> has a political system. It has to have one. If > there > >> isn't one, there will be anarchy. In the case > of a > >> "democracy", the politician is of > critical > >> importance to the citizen. The Constitution allows > Laws, > >> Laws take shape from Legislation, Legislation is > enacted by > >> Legislators, Legislators are Politicians. Every > aspect of > >> the quality of life in India (for example) is > directly or > >> indirectly affected on and effected by the > Politicians. You > >> may be dismissive of Politicians if you want to > be. For me > >> Politicians are extremely important entities to be > >> evaluated and sieved in one's judgement. > >> > > >> > - I am a firm believer that my final societal > identity > >> is the Passport I hold or am eligible for. All > Inter- Nation > >> interactions including those of their citizens are > >> conditional to the Laws of each country. Yes I am > a firm > >> believer in 'nationalism'. I subscribe to > Indian > >> Nationalism. You perhaps are more tuned (correct > if I have > >> misheard the strains) into Kashmiri Nationalism. > Only the > >> forces of Nature respect no National Boundaries. > All other > >> aspects of our lives are linked to the country we > belong to > >> (because the Laws of the country govern every > other aspect > >> of our lives). Actually the Laws of a Country can > even > >> interfere with the reign of Nature, which is when > >> Environmental Concerns take centre-stage. > >> > > >> > - Is the "Kashmir issue" about > "Ethics > >> & Morals"? Perhaps it is to some degree > in some > >> areas. I see it more as being about "Rights > and > >> Responsibilities" and even more so as being > >> "Political" and about > "Religion" > >> > > >> > - You speak about the Kashmiri > "Muslims" > >> having been disrespected. I do not understand > that > >> judgement. Perhaps you might elaborate on how the > >> "Muslims" of Kashmir have been > >> "disrespected". > >> > > >> > - You speak about the SASB affair having > >> "undermined the sensitivity of .... > Muslims". > >> Again I do not understand how SASB affair is > linked with > >> "Kashmiri Muslims". Unless of course you > yourself > >> subscribe to the view that the SASB affair was one > of > >> Muslims against Hindus. > >> > > >> > (By your pointed reference to > "Muslims" you > >> seem to be in agreement with me that the > "Kashmir > >> Issue" is about "Religion") > >> > > >> > - You speak about " 1990 disrespect to > kashmiri > >> pandits" being about "ethics and > morals". > >> Perhaps it is to some extent. I see it more as a > Political > >> affair. I see it more as failure of governance > (both at the > >> Centre and State) in having allowed a "fear > >> atmosphere" to develop. > >> > > >> > At least in this mail I see the point that > you are > >> trying to make. Correct me if I understood > wrongly. You > >> state that you "know" what you should > >> "respect" and seem to suggest I do not > >> "know". Fair enough. You are entitled to > your > >> judgement. > >> > > >> > Kshmendra > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > --- On Mon, 7/7/08, inder salim > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > From: inder salim > > >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near > Hazratbal; > >> Shabir Shah among 14 injured > >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> > Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 7:00 PM > >> > > >> > Dear kshmendra > >> > > >> > i quote myself > >> > > >> > and once we are finished with these games.... > only > >> then we can begin > >> > to talk about ETHICS and MORALS > >> > > >> > it is again your choice to ignore the most > important > >> line of my last > >> > post... i dont feel insecure .... > >> > > >> > i know you know well what i am talking > about.... > >> > > >> > now see, you take a position with regard to > >> 'Respect', > >> > you respect, i dont know whethere with > capital R or > >> with small r, but > >> > u respect the politicians who are against the > >> occupation of indian > >> > foreces in kashmir.but strangely in the next > line you > >> think that they > >> > are enemies of the indian state and you are > Indian, > >> right . > >> > i > >> > on the contrary i dont respect a politican, > ....... i > >> have respect for > >> > a poet, a musician, an ariist, a social > worker a > >> simple worker, a job > >> > less man frustrated by the indiferent state. > i respect > >> a poor man on > >> > the road side, i respect a tribalman who is > contantly > >> being driven > >> > out of his ecology , > >> > > >> > i respect millions of landless people in > india.... i > >> have respect for > >> > the womens rights, i repect you has a human > being and > >> in that sense i > >> > respect a politician even. > >> > > >> > yes, i respect the morals and ethics, more > than being > >> a nationalist > >> > merely as an identity tag....i respect > rebels...... i > >> respect my > >> > teacher AK Mir who publically slapped Mufti > Mohd Syed > >> in Bijbehara > >> > because he as a Congress pradesh president > >> masterminded 1986 communal > >> > riots.... i respect a petty theif who threw > shit on > >> the judge in delhi > >> > because he was languishing in the jail and > could not > >> afford to bail > >> > himself out. > >> > > >> > i have respect for the courage.... and > similarly i > >> have respect for > >> > those who uphold their existential beings > wheenver the > >> state or the > >> > power structures openly supress and > disrespects the > >> ethics and morals > >> > of the other.... > >> > > >> > that is why kashmir issue is about ethics and > morals > >> as well..... > >> > > >> > that is why the land transter to shrine board > >> undermined the > >> > sensitivity of the already disrespected > kashmiri > >> muslims... > >> > > >> > that is why 1990 disrespect to kashmiri > pandits is > >> also about ethics > >> > and morals as well.. > >> > > >> > i see human being through this prism of > ethics and > >> morals ... i mix > >> > love with it and see some possiblity to heal > the self > >> and the other at > >> > the same time..i may fail in the end because > plolitics > >> is exercised > >> > quite ruthlessly in india and abroad.... but > i dont > >> regret about my > >> > position. > >> > > >> > at least i know what i should respect > >> > > >> > with love > >> > inder salim > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Kshmendra > Kaul > >> > >> > wrote: > >> >> Dear Inder Salim > >> >> > >> >> I wish I had understood what point you > were trying > >> to make. > >> >> > >> >> What I did notice is your quoting me > partially and > >> out of context and then > >> > using that to put a spin on my words so that > you could > >> indulge in innuendos and > >> > make judgements about me. > >> >> > >> >> I was talking of having respect for the > >> 'constant political > >> > position' of people whoever it may be. > Geelani was > >> an example for the sake > >> > of comparing with (what I see as) > hypocritical > >> declamations of the > >> > "moderate" Hurriyatis (especially > Umar > >> Farooq) and their claims of > >> > their brand of the "Hurriyat" call > being a > >> 'secular' one. It > >> > is called 'munaafaqat'. > >> >> > >> >> Just to explain it further, I similarly > have > >> respect for the 'constant > >> > political position' of Yasin Malik in > that he > >> wants (or used to want) the > >> > erstwhile princely State of Jammu & > Kashmir to be > >> an Independent Country > >> > with it's territories freed from both > Indian and > >> Pakistani control. Again I > >> > say this at the risk of being lynched by my > KP > >> brethren. Yasin, in proclaiming > >> > his having eschewed violence was foolish > enough to > >> admit that he (and/or JKLF) > >> > had previous to that indulged in > 'killings' > >> >> > >> >> I disagree with both positions, of > Geelani and > >> Yasin, but that does not > >> > stop me from acknowledging their constancy. > >> >> > >> >> Inder you talk about my > 'positions' but > >> you obviously have no idea > >> > of what they are. You only presume. > >> >> > >> >> Anyone who seeks to disturb the peace in > my > >> country India is for me an > >> > enemy of the nation. Anyone who seeks to > break-up > >> India or bring in violent > >> > divides between it's people is for me an > enemy of > >> India. They should be > >> > recognised as, dealt with and treated as > enemies. > >> Before your make another > >> > presumption, the 'recognising', > 'dealing > >> with' and > >> > 'treating' as enemies neither > automatically > >> means nor is suggested by > >> > me should be done by repressive means or > incarceration > >> or State Violence. > >> >> > >> >> The affiliations of these > 'enemies' are of > >> no importance. They > >> > could be from Hurriyat Conference, or JKLF or > RSS or > >> VHP or Bajrang Dal or SIMI > >> > or any other organisation. > >> >> > >> >> Kshmendra > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> --- On Sun, 7/6/08, inder salim > >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> From: inder salim > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near > Hazratbal; > >> Shabir Shah among 14 > >> > injured > >> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> >> Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 11:39 PM > >> >> > >> >> Dear Kshmendra > >> >> > >> >> I quote you, "but I have much more > respect > >> for the constant political > >> >> position of someone like Hurriyati > hardliner Syed > >> Ali Shah Geelani" > >> >> > >> >> just read your statment again and > remember when > >> Syed Ali Shah Geelani > >> >> too said similar about RSS. He really > dislkes > >> anything secular > >> >> because a religous stand is logical for > both > >> Geelani sahib and for > >> >> RSS. anything else is ambigous > >> >> > >> >> now i quote you again, "It has > amused me > >> more to see how easily the > >> >> likes of Umar Farooq, Prof Abdul Ghani > Bhat, > >> Shabbir Shah (and other > >> >> Hurriyat 'moderates') are able to > fool > >> people into buying their > >> >> 'secular' credentials" > >> >> > >> >> just remember when Atal Behari Vajpayee > wrote a > >> poem about the sad > >> >> demolition of Babri Mosque...The words > moistened > >> the eyes of the > >> >> naive, but we knew how crocodile weeps... > you also > >> know it well > >> >> > >> >> now i know there are positions, well you > are > >> within your rights to > >> >> hold one ... that is ok > >> >> > >> >> i just met a kashmiri pandit who was > demonstrating > >> at jantar mantar > >> >> today.... and i sarcastically > congratulated about > >> the news KASHSMIR > >> >> PANDITOON NAY TODFOD KI, ( riots by > kashmir > >> pandits ) It is perhaps > >> >> for the first time i heard about such a > news. He > >> understood and > >> >> replied quickly... " if we dont > resort to > >> thes acts who will listen > >> > to > >> >> us, we are politically irrlevant in the > present > >> political > >> >> situation.... we need to read these > situations > >> quickly, and we do it > >> >> from time to time. " > >> >> > >> >> now see how their brother is the valley > do the > >> same things for their > >> >> own survial. for example PDP, who need > to > >> something from time to time > >> >> to stay in relevant in the volatite > politcal games > >> being played in the > >> >> valley..... what is so wrong about it if > >> everything else is not. > >> >> > >> >> and once we are finished with these > games.... only > >> then we can being > >> >> to talk about ETHICS and MORALS > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> till then best > >> >> > >> >> inder salim > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 12:27 AM, > Kshmendra Kaul > >> > > >> >> wrote: > >> >>> Dear Sonia > >> >>> > >> >>> There is nothing surprising in the > religious > >> place Hazrartbal being > >> > the > >> >> start-point for the 'victory' > rally. It > >> only reinforces the > >> > evaluation > >> >> that the 'victory' was sought by > one > >> religion over the other. For > >> > those > >> >> who achieved the 'victory', what > better > >> place to start the > >> > celebration > >> >> than a Shrine/Mosque. > >> >>> > >> >>> Our 'secular' commentators > may spout > >> various theories and > >> > analyses > >> >> but those who were a part of that > >> 'victory' were obviously honest > >> > about > >> >> what they had achieved and in the name of > which > >> religion. > >> >>> > >> >>> Whether it has been the 1931 > 'bread > >> movement' or the intense > >> >> rivalry between the 'sher' (of > Sheikh > >> Abdullah) and > >> > 'bakra' (of > >> >> Maulvi Farooq) or the Hurriyat > >> (freedom/separatist) movement, the pulpits > >> > of > >> >> both Hazratbal and Jama Masjid have been > used as > >> much for political > >> >> speeches/sloganeering and calls for > separatism as > >> they have been for > >> > religious > >> >> sermons. > >> >>> > >> >>> It has always amused me to see Umar > Farooq (as > >> just one example among > >> >> others) indulge in such political > >> speeches/sloganeering from Jama Masjid, > >> > or > >> >> visit and seek support from his Political > Mecca of > >> OIC (and/or Pakistan) > >> > and > >> >> yet at the same time hypocritically claim > that the > >> "Hurriyat" > >> >> movement is a secular one. > >> >>> > >> >>> It has amused me more to see how > easily the > >> likes of Umar Farooq, Prof > >> >> Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other > Hurriyat > >> 'moderates') > >> > are > >> >> able to fool people into buying their > >> 'secular' credentials. > >> >>> > >> >>> My Kashmiri Pandit brethren might > lynch me for > >> saying this, but I have > >> >> much more respect for the constant > political > >> position of someone like > >> > Hurriyati > >> >> hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani (even if > I > >> disagree with his arguments) > >> > who is > >> >> firm in his belief that J&K as Muslim > Majority > >> 'territory' > >> > should > >> >> be a part of Pakistan. > >> >>> > >> >>> I am sure you did not mean to equate > the > >> situations but I found it > >> > strange > >> >> that you mentioned in the same breath the > >> "peaceful... victory > >> > rally" > >> >> starting from Hazratbal with "siege > of Hazrat > >> Bal in the early > >> > '90s or > >> >> for that matter the siege of Charar > e-Sharif in > >> '95 or > >> >>> for that matter the Golden Temple in > the > >> '80s". > >> >>> > >> >>> In all three 'siege' > mentioned, there > >> were bands of armed > >> >> terrorists holed up inside the three > religious > >> places. Some might choose > >> > to > >> >> call them 'freedom fighters' or > >> "Mujahideen". > >> >>> > >> >>> Kshmendra > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> --- On Sat, 7/5/08, S. Jabbar > >> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> From: S. Jabbar > > >> >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle > near > >> Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among > >> > 14 > >> >> injured > >> >>> To: "Shivam Vij शिवम् > >> विज् " > >> >> , "sarai > list" > >> >> > >> >>> Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 1:07 PM > >> >>> > >> >>> I think you may want to ask why it > was > >> necessary to begin a victory > >> > rally > >> >>> from a religious place and how any of > us would > >> have reacted if Advani > >> > were > >> >>> to embark on another > 'victory' rally > >> from Somnath or Ayodhya. > >> >> These > >> >>> so-called victory rallies will only > add fuel > >> to the Jammu-Kashmir/ > >> >>> Hindu-Muslim conflagration. > >> >>> > >> >>> Hazrat Bal and the Jama Masjid are > not neutral > >> sites and have been > >> >>> politically charged ever since the > 1930s when > >> the Quit Kashmir > >> > movement > >> >> was > >> >>> launched against the Maharaja. What > must have > >> started off as an > >> > equally > >> >>> 'peaceful' gathering turned > violent > >> and a man was killed. > >> > That > >> >> was > >> >>> reason > >> >>> enough for mass rioting. You may be > aware of > >> the siege of Hazrat Bal > >> > in > >> >> the > >> >>> early '90s or for that matter the > siege of > >> Charar e-Sharif in > >> > '95 > >> >> or > >> >>> for > >> >>> that matter the Golden Temple in the > '80s. > >> >>> > >> >>> The Hurriyat is not unaware that the > state > >> cannot risk a religious > >> > site > >> >>> becoming another site of > contestation. It > >> would try and control what > >> > in > >> >> all > >> >>> likelihood would turn into yet > another > >> communally charged and violent > >> >> event. > >> >>> And yet it decided to go ahead. The > stakes > >> are high and I really > >> >> don't > >> >>> think anyone is above using religion > to > >> further their political ends. > >> >>> --sj > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> On 7/5/08 12:43 PM, "Shivam Vij > >> शिवम् > >> > विज्" > >> >>> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>>> This is what happens when you > prevent > >> people from addressing > >> >>>> peaceful > >> >>> gatherings... > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> o o o o > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah > among > >> >>>> 14 injured > >> >>> > >> >>> Special Correspondent, 5 July > >> >>>> 2008 > >> >>> > >> > http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/05/stories/2008070559931300.htm > >> >>> > >> >>> The clash > >> >>>> followed prayers to celebrate the > >> "victory" in the land > >> >> transfer > >> >>>> issue > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> SRINAGAR: Senior Hurriyat Conference > leader > >> Shabir Shah was among > >> >>>> 14 > >> >>> people injured on Friday, following a > scuffle > >> between police and > >> >>> supporters > >> >>>> of separatist leaders after they > offered > >> prayers at the > >> >>> Hazratbal shrine to > >> >>>> celebrate the recent > "victory" > >> in the land > >> >>> transfer issue. > >> >>> > >> >>> The call for > >> >>>> "Hazratbal Chalo" was > given by > >> Syed Ali Geelani, head of > >> >>> a faction of the > >> >>>> Hurriyat Conference and supported > by > >> Mirwaiz Umar > >> >>> Farooq, head of another. > >> >>>> However, both were placed under > house > >> arrest > >> >>> by the police. Mr. Shah and other > >> >>>> leaders, however, reached > Hazratbal > >> >>> amid heavy deployment of police and > >> >>>> paramilitary CRPF and offered > >> >>> prayers besides addressing the > people. > >> >>> > >> >>> Mr. Shah > >> >>>> and Ashraf Sehrai, another senior > leader > >> denounced the > >> >>> government for putting > >> >>>> Mr. Geelani and Mr. Mirwaiz under > house > >> arrest. > >> >>> > >> >>> A protester hurls back a tear > >> >>>> smoke shell towards the police. > >> >>> > >> >>> On their way back, Mr. Shabir Shah, > Mr. > >> >>>> Sehrai, Naeem Khan, Sheikh > >> >>> Aziz, Shafi Reshi, Firdous Shah and > others led > >> a > >> >>>> strong procession, > >> >>> which was lathi-charged. > >> >>> > >> >>> Fourteen people, including Mr. > >> >>>> Shabir Shah, were injured. He was > >> >>> shifted to the S.K. Institute of > Medical > >> >>>> Sciences (SKIMS) for > >> >>> treatment. > >> >>> > >> >>> Even as rumours spread that he was > critical, > >> >>>> Director SKIMS Abdul > >> >>> Hamid Zargar told The Hindu that he > was > >> stable. Another > >> >>>> procession > >> >>> taken from Jamia Masjid and led by > the head > >> imam, was dispersed > >> >>>> by > >> >>> police with smoke shells. Many people > were > >> arrested. Another > >> >>>> Hurriyat > >> >>> leader Javed Mir was arrested when he > tried to > >> take out a > >> >>>> procession > >> >>> towards Hazratbal in Khanyar > >> >>>> area. > >> >>> > _________________________________________ > >> >>> reader-list: an open > >> >>>> discussion list on media and the > city. > >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >>> To > >> >>>> subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe > >> >>> in > >> >>>> the subject header. > >> >>> To unsubscribe: > >> >>>> > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >>> List archive: > >> >>>> > >> > > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > _________________________________________ > >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list > on media > >> and the city. > >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe in > >> >>> the subject header. > >> >>> To unsubscribe: > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >>> List archive: > >> > > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > _________________________________________ > >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list > on media > >> and the city. > >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >>> To unsubscribe: > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >>> List archive: > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> > >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and > >> the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in > >> >> the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> List archive: > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and > >> the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> List archive: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > > >> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media > and the > >> city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > >> > the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media > and the > >> city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject > >> header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject > >> header. > >> To unsubscribe: > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 9 15:10:59 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 02:40:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured In-Reply-To: <36514.58148.qm@web53607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <921364.40932.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rahul   Most people, I would think, howsoever strongly they believe in "Nationalism" would in the normal course of day-to-day living be somewhat 'indifferent' towards "Nationalism".  They would not be waking-sleeping obsessed with it. I am not.   It is only when dismissiveness towards "Nationalism" is used to propagate 'so what if the country breaks up' that warning bells sound for someone like me.   To use a cliched phrase, it  is akin to "jis thaali mein se khao, ussi mein cheid karo" (demolish the hearth that gives you your food).   Maybe it is intellectually and/or ideologically fashionable to dismiss "Nationalism"   Interestingly "National Interest' is the 'mantra' being used to justify their position by everyone ranged on either side of the 'nuclear deal' divide. That is how it should be.   Also interestingly, it has created some strange bedfellowship as between the Left and BJP. That is how it should be. Any friggin (Individual or Collective) Political, Social, Religious or Economic ideology should be secondary to "National Interest".    Kshmendra     --- On Wed, 7/9/08, Rahul Asthana wrote: From: Rahul Asthana Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured To: reader-list at sarai.net, "inder salim" Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008, 7:15 AM Dear Inder, I am also "indifferent to nationalism".With that out of the way,what do you propose we should campaign for,support,preach,do etc with respect to your pan national vision in general and Kashmir in particular?How can we bring your dream to fruition in Kashmir?In what way can we help Kashmiris and Kashmir and make a difference there? P.S.1 You don't have to answer this question if this cause is not important to you.Or maybe just answer it as an academic exercise. 2.Continuing to dream and write poetry and sing songs is also a valid answer,I will accept it. Thanks Rahul --- On Tue, 7/8/08, inder salim wrote: > From: inder salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 11:24 PM > Dear Rahul > have u ever wondered why there is a song called ' > imagine there is no country ' > and if it is just a song and everything else is rock solid, > then i > feel there is not even iron in the soul, > it is barren, and our head pieces is filled with staw.... > > now what is soul? whenever i go to Socretes as a > teacher i feel > the urge to question 'the state' endlessly ... > similarly when i read > myth , i see a good a king in the form of Raja Harish > Chander who > abandoned his throne for a word..... and again who is great > prince? I > think of Buddha.... i think if one fills ones soul with > such a teacher > and such a king and prince then that 'iron' might > keep on coming and > going...dissolving with the fresh water of a country called > no-man's > land > > I think of Manto's Toba Tek Singh, in that there is a > mad character, > who has no place under the sun upon which is goverened by > laws and > systems.... but that his death between the boarders of two > countries > smashed nationalism in one go... i like the tools which rip > a word, a > system, a status quo...may be i am also mad.... > > but there is some method in this madness....and there are > many > practiontioners of this madness in our world.. these mad > people have > worked passionetly for the understnding of human being..... > they need > space to be.... > > further, when i say nationalism, i say NAY-TIONALISM... > this can be > the mantra....the mantra which restores the existential > dignity of a > human being.... > > France and Englad fought like mad dogs but today there is a > single > currency in europe... why can we dream something similar in > Aisa, > > i think Gandhi ji would be delighted to see that currency > without his > toothless image on it.... > > you said that i dislike nationalsim, i dont, i am > indifferent to nationalism.... > and when people who listens similar music too share halva > puri or > nihiri/paya they really share love, > > but you know how we oppose our women to marry with men of > other religion... > is that STATE you admire....which is busy playing vote bank > politics > in the name of democracy... > > now, i dont know what is the priorirty of issues in your > opinion..... > i think women's issues is as important as environmental > issues, which > is as important as ethics and morals which is as important > as respect > for the common man.... > > and above all, there is something called PAST which > surpasses our > written word...surpasses our written history...it is aobut > that > memory which is in the form of TIME embedded within us... > our > collective memory > > it is not about a slogan, saray jahan say > achha...unfortunately when > we sing it we sing 'the meaning', but not the > poem... > State officers and corrupt ministers of a country... > > i dont think i have been able to answer your question.. > because you > feel majority is with you...i am minority within the > minority within > the minority... > > so love > is > > > On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 8:25 PM, Rahul Asthana > wrote: > > Hi Inder, > > Your position of "not believing in > nationalism" is typical of many on this list.I am not > arguing for nationalism against anarchy. I do not think > there is anything noble in being a nationalist > \patriot. But I do realize the utilitarian value of the > concept of nation.Anyhow, lets for a while assume that your > idea of "not believing in the nationalism" is the > way to go. > > What do you suppose we should do now? Organize an > Indo-Pak concert where someone will sing "Imagine > there's no country" or perhaps Sayonee by Junoon > and then everyone will start hugging,kissing and dancing > kumbaya with each other, halwa poori or nihari\paya > will be distributed and all will go home and live happily > ever after. Is that likely to happen? > > A while back,when I was making the argument that > sovereign Kashmir is not a feasible state(for reasons that > I had given earlier),the arguments I got in response was > that I was not romantic enough,I had a diseased mind, > Kashmir is too beautiful to stay occupied etc etc.. Then > there was the usual "I dont believe in > nationalism". > > Your dislike of nationalism may be the principle > around which you frame your argument but THAT STATEMENT, BY > ITSELF CAN NOT BE YOUR ARGUMENT.If you can build any > realistic and pragmatic course of action around that > principle then you should forward it.Just chanting this > mantra of "not believing in nationalism",is > neither here nor there and would make you irrelevant.Till > the time that nation states are a reality you cant just > ignore them or wish them away. > > > > Regards > > Rahul > > > > --- On Tue, 7/8/08, inder salim > wrote: > > > >> From: inder salim > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; > Shabir Shah among 14 injured > >> To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:39 AM > >> dear kshmendra > >> > >> for now, all i want to say is that i am not for > any kind of > >> nationalism.... i dont know what that will lead > to, i think > >> it will be > >> perhpas better for humanity, if nation states > disappear > >> suddenly and > >> enable people to move freely on this planet > earth.... > >> > >> i have a dream, you may say it is utopian... so > what. > >> > >> desire for nation is not bad, i have huge > admiration for > >> people like > >> Bhagat Singh, but the the powers sturctures that > cling on > >> the that > >> state in the name of democracy or people is > fradulent. Now > >> dont tell > >> me that we helpless to not-to-see-the-other > >> > >> it is interesting to notice how people's > simple faith > >> gets translated > >> into something necessary costly rituals...say > prem > >> chand's Govdaan, > >> .. . i see misery for the innocent lot, and for > that i have > >> every > >> right to undermine, a state, a religion or an > >> identiy....and once it > >> becomes a system that gnaws the dignity > existential core > >> of human > >> being,..... i want to restore that > >> > >> one is free to remain glued to something as long > as it > >> keeps on > >> milking other's cow. that is why i talked > about morals > >> and ethics. > >> > >> now see, there is a great democracy in america and > england > >> but when i > >> comes to their foreign affairs they looks > barbarians.... > >> and i dont know how to admire their democratic > systems > >> endlessly if > >> there is no change.... right now, everyting is > stuck, > >> > >> just see, what their democracies did to afganistan > and > >> iraq. i have > >> more respect for a poor afgani who > >> has no choice but to shoot alongwith a taliban > commander > >> and work in > >> poppy fields in comparison to some one who is > drinking beer > >> in new > >> york while criticizing muslim fundamentalism.... > >> > >> in that sense, i have nothing against politics, > but against > >> the > >> polticians who are at the helm of affairs.....as > jean paul > >> sartre says > >> that politics enters through all the pores of your > >> body,....and > >> realization of that sensitizes me, realization of > that > >> reduces my > >> arrogance, and i think that is how i want to > understand > >> politics, > >> > >> and that way i know what is the meaning of GAME in > >> politics.... now you that.... > >> > >> now religion, i believe, > >> the state has no business to enter the affairs of > the > >> shrine.... why > >> on earth state should provide facilites to a > piligrim... > >> a true piligrim has to be really prepared , both > physically > >> and mentally.... > >> and above all, SHIVA i believe is about death > also... you > >> might be > >> knowing, there is a mountain , just one stop > before the > >> amarnath cave > >> which is called Bhairav Baal, and it was famous > for real > >> piligirms to > >> climb it and jump on the other side of it....a > true love of > >> shiva will > >> be quite educated and brave and should understand > the > >> significance of > >> death and sprituality in one go... > >> > >> i still dont understand how a shiva lover can > throw stones > >> at others, > >> or burn a tyre, if one goes by the kashmiri > philisophy of > >> shivaism > >> well you are within your rights to call it > politics, but i > >> see decadence in it > >> > >> at the best it is opportunism, and once it is so, > it is > >> free for all, > >> > >> once we realize the absence of morals and ethics > in our > >> political > >> acitivity, we are at the mercy of goons and the > politicians > >> who love > >> to make a fool of each one of us. > >> > >> about disrespect, just show me one communtiy, at > grass root > >> level, in > >> the world history which not suffered humiliation > at the > >> hands of their > >> rulers. > >> that is why i am not interested in those who > eulogise kings > >> and queens > >> for this or that.... people have suffered, even > when a > >> great king was > >> constructing a Taj mahal or making a great wall in > china, > >> same goes > >> for the construction of great temples and > mosques.......i > >> see pain of > >> a human being in the form of an monument, beauty > of it > >> comes next.... > >> > >> that way i see the possibity of a shift in > histroy, that > >> way we can > >> see the emergence of a new politics, a new way of > living, > >> beyond > >> mindsets and old designs , old territories.... > >> > >> my dear, that muse on the classical canvas died > long > >> ago.... we are > >> finished with waste land even, we have come to a > stage when > >> even > >> writing a poem is impossiblity.... > >> > >> politics is dead in that sense...the issue is > ethics, > >> environment, and > >> my favourite word 'love' is kicking > alive, > >> > >> with love and regards > >> is > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > >> wrote: > >> > Dear Inder Salim > >> > > >> > You say "i know you know well what i am > talking > >> about...." > >> > > >> > No Sir I do not. Either we are talking about > different > >> things or it must be the limitations of my > understanding. > >> > > >> > It must also be the limitations of my being > able to > >> express myself that you read meanings other than > what I > >> think I have placed in my words. > >> > > >> > - I ddear o not know what "GAMES" > you are > >> talking about. If you explain them in simple > words, I might > >> be able to comment > >> > > >> > - I spoke about "respect" for > >> "constancy" in "political > positions". > >> That could or could not translate into > "respect" > >> for the person. That also does not preclude the > ones being > >> talked about being political adversaries or being > enemies > >> of my country > >> > > >> > - Let me give another example. I see China > as being > >> (if not an enemy these days) inimical towards > India on many > >> fronts. Yet I have immense respect for China in > many > >> spheres. > >> > > >> > - Let me give another example. I see Pakistan > as > >> continuing to be an enemy of India. I have no > respect for > >> (I have contempt for) Pakistan's shifts over > Kashmir > >> especially in the context of it's duplicity > with the > >> "Hurriyat Pasand". Yet there are things > about and > >> from Pakistan I love. I love their Muslin and > Men's > >> Shalvaar Kameez, I love Mehdi Hassan and Nayyara > Noor and > >> Sabri Brothers, I love Faiz and Parveen Shakir and > Amjad > >> Islam Amjad > >> > > >> > - Saw your list of those you respect. I have > no > >> argument with you over that list. > >> > > >> > - You do not respect 'politicians'. > For me > >> that is too generalised a statement. Maybe I would > not > >> respect "some" or even "most" > >> politicians" but the political system is > essential (in > >> my opinion) to any organised society. Irrespective > of the > >> form of Government or quality of Governance, every > country > >> has a political system. It has to have one. If > there > >> isn't one, there will be anarchy. In the case > of a > >> "democracy", the politician is of > critical > >> importance to the citizen. The Constitution allows > Laws, > >> Laws take shape from Legislation, Legislation is > enacted by > >> Legislators, Legislators are Politicians. Every > aspect of > >> the quality of life in India (for example) is > directly or > >> indirectly affected on and effected by the > Politicians. You > >> may be dismissive of Politicians if you want to > be. For me > >> Politicians are extremely important entities to be > >> evaluated and sieved in one's judgement. > >> > > >> > - I am a firm believer that my final societal > identity > >> is the Passport I hold or am eligible for. All > Inter- Nation > >> interactions including those of their citizens are > >> conditional to the Laws of each country. Yes I am > a firm > >> believer in 'nationalism'. I subscribe to > Indian > >> Nationalism. You perhaps are more tuned (correct > if I have > >> misheard the strains) into Kashmiri Nationalism. > Only the > >> forces of Nature respect no National Boundaries. > All other > >> aspects of our lives are linked to the country we > belong to > >> (because the Laws of the country govern every > other aspect > >> of our lives). Actually the Laws of a Country can > even > >> interfere with the reign of Nature, which is when > >> Environmental Concerns take centre-stage. > >> > > >> > - Is the "Kashmir issue" about > "Ethics > >> & Morals"? Perhaps it is to some degree > in some > >> areas. I see it more as being about "Rights > and > >> Responsibilities" and even more so as being > >> "Political" and about > "Religion" > >> > > >> > - You speak about the Kashmiri > "Muslims" > >> having been disrespected. I do not understand > that > >> judgement. Perhaps you might elaborate on how the > >> "Muslims" of Kashmir have been > >> "disrespected". > >> > > >> > - You speak about the SASB affair having > >> "undermined the sensitivity of .... > Muslims". > >> Again I do not understand how SASB affair is > linked with > >> "Kashmiri Muslims". Unless of course you > yourself > >> subscribe to the view that the SASB affair was one > of > >> Muslims against Hindus. > >> > > >> > (By your pointed reference to > "Muslims" you > >> seem to be in agreement with me that the > "Kashmir > >> Issue" is about "Religion") > >> > > >> > - You speak about " 1990 disrespect to > kashmiri > >> pandits" being about "ethics and > morals". > >> Perhaps it is to some extent. I see it more as a > Political > >> affair. I see it more as failure of governance > (both at the > >> Centre and State) in having allowed a "fear > >> atmosphere" to develop. > >> > > >> > At least in this mail I see the point that > you are > >> trying to make. Correct me if I understood > wrongly. You > >> state that you "know" what you should > >> "respect" and seem to suggest I do not > >> "know". Fair enough. You are entitled to > your > >> judgement. > >> > > >> > Kshmendra > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > --- On Mon, 7/7/08, inder salim > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > From: inder salim > > >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near > Hazratbal; > >> Shabir Shah among 14 injured > >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> > Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 7:00 PM > >> > > >> > Dear kshmendra > >> > > >> > i quote myself > >> > > >> > and once we are finished with these games.... > only > >> then we can begin > >> > to talk about ETHICS and MORALS > >> > > >> > it is again your choice to ignore the most > important > >> line of my last > >> > post... i dont feel insecure .... > >> > > >> > i know you know well what i am talking > about.... > >> > > >> > now see, you take a position with regard to > >> 'Respect', > >> > you respect, i dont know whethere with > capital R or > >> with small r, but > >> > u respect the politicians who are against the > >> occupation of indian > >> > foreces in kashmir.but strangely in the next > line you > >> think that they > >> > are enemies of the indian state and you are > Indian, > >> right . > >> > i > >> > on the contrary i dont respect a politican, > ....... i > >> have respect for > >> > a poet, a musician, an ariist, a social > worker a > >> simple worker, a job > >> > less man frustrated by the indiferent state. > i respect > >> a poor man on > >> > the road side, i respect a tribalman who is > contantly > >> being driven > >> > out of his ecology , > >> > > >> > i respect millions of landless people in > india.... i > >> have respect for > >> > the womens rights, i repect you has a human > being and > >> in that sense i > >> > respect a politician even. > >> > > >> > yes, i respect the morals and ethics, more > than being > >> a nationalist > >> > merely as an identity tag....i respect > rebels...... i > >> respect my > >> > teacher AK Mir who publically slapped Mufti > Mohd Syed > >> in Bijbehara > >> > because he as a Congress pradesh president > >> masterminded 1986 communal > >> > riots.... i respect a petty theif who threw > shit on > >> the judge in delhi > >> > because he was languishing in the jail and > could not > >> afford to bail > >> > himself out. > >> > > >> > i have respect for the courage.... and > similarly i > >> have respect for > >> > those who uphold their existential beings > wheenver the > >> state or the > >> > power structures openly supress and > disrespects the > >> ethics and morals > >> > of the other.... > >> > > >> > that is why kashmir issue is about ethics and > morals > >> as well..... > >> > > >> > that is why the land transter to shrine board > >> undermined the > >> > sensitivity of the already disrespected > kashmiri > >> muslims... > >> > > >> > that is why 1990 disrespect to kashmiri > pandits is > >> also about ethics > >> > and morals as well.. > >> > > >> > i see human being through this prism of > ethics and > >> morals ... i mix > >> > love with it and see some possiblity to heal > the self > >> and the other at > >> > the same time..i may fail in the end because > plolitics > >> is exercised > >> > quite ruthlessly in india and abroad.... but > i dont > >> regret about my > >> > position. > >> > > >> > at least i know what i should respect > >> > > >> > with love > >> > inder salim > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Kshmendra > Kaul > >> > >> > wrote: > >> >> Dear Inder Salim > >> >> > >> >> I wish I had understood what point you > were trying > >> to make. > >> >> > >> >> What I did notice is your quoting me > partially and > >> out of context and then > >> > using that to put a spin on my words so that > you could > >> indulge in innuendos and > >> > make judgements about me. > >> >> > >> >> I was talking of having respect for the > >> 'constant political > >> > position' of people whoever it may be. > Geelani was > >> an example for the sake > >> > of comparing with (what I see as) > hypocritical > >> declamations of the > >> > "moderate" Hurriyatis (especially > Umar > >> Farooq) and their claims of > >> > their brand of the "Hurriyat" call > being a > >> 'secular' one. It > >> > is called 'munaafaqat'. > >> >> > >> >> Just to explain it further, I similarly > have > >> respect for the 'constant > >> > political position' of Yasin Malik in > that he > >> wants (or used to want) the > >> > erstwhile princely State of Jammu & > Kashmir to be > >> an Independent Country > >> > with it's territories freed from both > Indian and > >> Pakistani control. Again I > >> > say this at the risk of being lynched by my > KP > >> brethren. Yasin, in proclaiming > >> > his having eschewed violence was foolish > enough to > >> admit that he (and/or JKLF) > >> > had previous to that indulged in > 'killings' > >> >> > >> >> I disagree with both positions, of > Geelani and > >> Yasin, but that does not > >> > stop me from acknowledging their constancy. > >> >> > >> >> Inder you talk about my > 'positions' but > >> you obviously have no idea > >> > of what they are. You only presume. > >> >> > >> >> Anyone who seeks to disturb the peace in > my > >> country India is for me an > >> > enemy of the nation. Anyone who seeks to > break-up > >> India or bring in violent > >> > divides between it's people is for me an > enemy of > >> India. They should be > >> > recognised as, dealt with and treated as > enemies. > >> Before your make another > >> > presumption, the 'recognising', > 'dealing > >> with' and > >> > 'treating' as enemies neither > automatically > >> means nor is suggested by > >> > me should be done by repressive means or > incarceration > >> or State Violence. > >> >> > >> >> The affiliations of these > 'enemies' are of > >> no importance. They > >> > could be from Hurriyat Conference, or JKLF or > RSS or > >> VHP or Bajrang Dal or SIMI > >> > or any other organisation. > >> >> > >> >> Kshmendra > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> --- On Sun, 7/6/08, inder salim > >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> From: inder salim > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near > Hazratbal; > >> Shabir Shah among 14 > >> > injured > >> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> >> Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 11:39 PM > >> >> > >> >> Dear Kshmendra > >> >> > >> >> I quote you, "but I have much more > respect > >> for the constant political > >> >> position of someone like Hurriyati > hardliner Syed > >> Ali Shah Geelani" > >> >> > >> >> just read your statment again and > remember when > >> Syed Ali Shah Geelani > >> >> too said similar about RSS. He really > dislkes > >> anything secular > >> >> because a religous stand is logical for > both > >> Geelani sahib and for > >> >> RSS. anything else is ambigous > >> >> > >> >> now i quote you again, "It has > amused me > >> more to see how easily the > >> >> likes of Umar Farooq, Prof Abdul Ghani > Bhat, > >> Shabbir Shah (and other > >> >> Hurriyat 'moderates') are able to > fool > >> people into buying their > >> >> 'secular' credentials" > >> >> > >> >> just remember when Atal Behari Vajpayee > wrote a > >> poem about the sad > >> >> demolition of Babri Mosque...The words > moistened > >> the eyes of the > >> >> naive, but we knew how crocodile weeps... > you also > >> know it well > >> >> > >> >> now i know there are positions, well you > are > >> within your rights to > >> >> hold one ... that is ok > >> >> > >> >> i just met a kashmiri pandit who was > demonstrating > >> at jantar mantar > >> >> today.... and i sarcastically > congratulated about > >> the news KASHSMIR > >> >> PANDITOON NAY TODFOD KI, ( riots by > kashmir > >> pandits ) It is perhaps > >> >> for the first time i heard about such a > news. He > >> understood and > >> >> replied quickly... " if we dont > resort to > >> thes acts who will listen > >> > to > >> >> us, we are politically irrlevant in the > present > >> political > >> >> situation.... we need to read these > situations > >> quickly, and we do it > >> >> from time to time. " > >> >> > >> >> now see how their brother is the valley > do the > >> same things for their > >> >> own survial. for example PDP, who need > to > >> something from time to time > >> >> to stay in relevant in the volatite > politcal games > >> being played in the > >> >> valley..... what is so wrong about it if > >> everything else is not. > >> >> > >> >> and once we are finished with these > games.... only > >> then we can being > >> >> to talk about ETHICS and MORALS > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> till then best > >> >> > >> >> inder salim > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 12:27 AM, > Kshmendra Kaul > >> > > >> >> wrote: > >> >>> Dear Sonia > >> >>> > >> >>> There is nothing surprising in the > religious > >> place Hazrartbal being > >> > the > >> >> start-point for the 'victory' > rally. It > >> only reinforces the > >> > evaluation > >> >> that the 'victory' was sought by > one > >> religion over the other. For > >> > those > >> >> who achieved the 'victory', what > better > >> place to start the > >> > celebration > >> >> than a Shrine/Mosque. > >> >>> > >> >>> Our 'secular' commentators > may spout > >> various theories and > >> > analyses > >> >> but those who were a part of that > >> 'victory' were obviously honest > >> > about > >> >> what they had achieved and in the name of > which > >> religion. > >> >>> > >> >>> Whether it has been the 1931 > 'bread > >> movement' or the intense > >> >> rivalry between the 'sher' (of > Sheikh > >> Abdullah) and > >> > 'bakra' (of > >> >> Maulvi Farooq) or the Hurriyat > >> (freedom/separatist) movement, the pulpits > >> > of > >> >> both Hazratbal and Jama Masjid have been > used as > >> much for political > >> >> speeches/sloganeering and calls for > separatism as > >> they have been for > >> > religious > >> >> sermons. > >> >>> > >> >>> It has always amused me to see Umar > Farooq (as > >> just one example among > >> >> others) indulge in such political > >> speeches/sloganeering from Jama Masjid, > >> > or > >> >> visit and seek support from his Political > Mecca of > >> OIC (and/or Pakistan) > >> > and > >> >> yet at the same time hypocritically claim > that the > >> "Hurriyat" > >> >> movement is a secular one. > >> >>> > >> >>> It has amused me more to see how > easily the > >> likes of Umar Farooq, Prof > >> >> Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other > Hurriyat > >> 'moderates') > >> > are > >> >> able to fool people into buying their > >> 'secular' credentials. > >> >>> > >> >>> My Kashmiri Pandit brethren might > lynch me for > >> saying this, but I have > >> >> much more respect for the constant > political > >> position of someone like > >> > Hurriyati > >> >> hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani (even if > I > >> disagree with his arguments) > >> > who is > >> >> firm in his belief that J&K as Muslim > Majority > >> 'territory' > >> > should > >> >> be a part of Pakistan. > >> >>> > >> >>> I am sure you did not mean to equate > the > >> situations but I found it > >> > strange > >> >> that you mentioned in the same breath the > >> "peaceful... victory > >> > rally" > >> >> starting from Hazratbal with "siege > of Hazrat > >> Bal in the early > >> > '90s or > >> >> for that matter the siege of Charar > e-Sharif in > >> '95 or > >> >>> for that matter the Golden Temple in > the > >> '80s". > >> >>> > >> >>> In all three 'siege' > mentioned, there > >> were bands of armed > >> >> terrorists holed up inside the three > religious > >> places. Some might choose > >> > to > >> >> call them 'freedom fighters' or > >> "Mujahideen". > >> >>> > >> >>> Kshmendra > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> --- On Sat, 7/5/08, S. Jabbar > >> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> From: S. Jabbar > > >> >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle > near > >> Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among > >> > 14 > >> >> injured > >> >>> To: "Shivam Vij शिवम् > >> विज् " > >> >> , "sarai > list" > >> >> > >> >>> Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 1:07 PM > >> >>> > >> >>> I think you may want to ask why it > was > >> necessary to begin a victory > >> > rally > >> >>> from a religious place and how any of > us would > >> have reacted if Advani > >> > were > >> >>> to embark on another > 'victory' rally > >> from Somnath or Ayodhya. > >> >> These > >> >>> so-called victory rallies will only > add fuel > >> to the Jammu-Kashmir/ > >> >>> Hindu-Muslim conflagration. > >> >>> > >> >>> Hazrat Bal and the Jama Masjid are > not neutral > >> sites and have been > >> >>> politically charged ever since the > 1930s when > >> the Quit Kashmir > >> > movement > >> >> was > >> >>> launched against the Maharaja. What > must have > >> started off as an > >> > equally > >> >>> 'peaceful' gathering turned > violent > >> and a man was killed. > >> > That > >> >> was > >> >>> reason > >> >>> enough for mass rioting. You may be > aware of > >> the siege of Hazrat Bal > >> > in > >> >> the > >> >>> early '90s or for that matter the > siege of > >> Charar e-Sharif in > >> > '95 > >> >> or > >> >>> for > >> >>> that matter the Golden Temple in the > '80s. > >> >>> > >> >>> The Hurriyat is not unaware that the > state > >> cannot risk a religious > >> > site > >> >>> becoming another site of > contestation. It > >> would try and control what > >> > in > >> >> all > >> >>> likelihood would turn into yet > another > >> communally charged and violent > >> >> event. > >> >>> And yet it decided to go ahead. The > stakes > >> are high and I really > >> >> don't > >> >>> think anyone is above using religion > to > >> further their political ends. > >> >>> --sj > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> On 7/5/08 12:43 PM, "Shivam Vij > >> शिवम् > >> > विज्" > >> >>> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>>> This is what happens when you > prevent > >> people from addressing > >> >>>> peaceful > >> >>> gatherings... > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> o o o o > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah > among > >> >>>> 14 injured > >> >>> > >> >>> Special Correspondent, 5 July > >> >>>> 2008 > >> >>> > >> > http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/05/stories/2008070559931300.htm > >> >>> > >> >>> The clash > >> >>>> followed prayers to celebrate the > >> "victory" in the land > >> >> transfer > >> >>>> issue > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> SRINAGAR: Senior Hurriyat Conference > leader > >> Shabir Shah was among > >> >>>> 14 > >> >>> people injured on Friday, following a > scuffle > >> between police and > >> >>> supporters > >> >>>> of separatist leaders after they > offered > >> prayers at the > >> >>> Hazratbal shrine to > >> >>>> celebrate the recent > "victory" > >> in the land > >> >>> transfer issue. > >> >>> > >> >>> The call for > >> >>>> "Hazratbal Chalo" was > given by > >> Syed Ali Geelani, head of > >> >>> a faction of the > >> >>>> Hurriyat Conference and supported > by > >> Mirwaiz Umar > >> >>> Farooq, head of another. > >> >>>> However, both were placed under > house > >> arrest > >> >>> by the police. Mr. Shah and other > >> >>>> leaders, however, reached > Hazratbal > >> >>> amid heavy deployment of police and > >> >>>> paramilitary CRPF and offered > >> >>> prayers besides addressing the > people. > >> >>> > >> >>> Mr. Shah > >> >>>> and Ashraf Sehrai, another senior > leader > >> denounced the > >> >>> government for putting > >> >>>> Mr. Geelani and Mr. Mirwaiz under > house > >> arrest. > >> >>> > >> >>> A protester hurls back a tear > >> >>>> smoke shell towards the police. > >> >>> > >> >>> On their way back, Mr. Shabir Shah, > Mr. > >> >>>> Sehrai, Naeem Khan, Sheikh > >> >>> Aziz, Shafi Reshi, Firdous Shah and > others led > >> a > >> >>>> strong procession, > >> >>> which was lathi-charged. > >> >>> > >> >>> Fourteen people, including Mr. > >> >>>> Shabir Shah, were injured. He was > >> >>> shifted to the S.K. Institute of > Medical > >> >>>> Sciences (SKIMS) for > >> >>> treatment. > >> >>> > >> >>> Even as rumours spread that he was > critical, > >> >>>> Director SKIMS Abdul > >> >>> Hamid Zargar told The Hindu that he > was > >> stable. Another > >> >>>> procession > >> >>> taken from Jamia Masjid and led by > the head > >> imam, was dispersed > >> >>>> by > >> >>> police with smoke shells. Many people > were > >> arrested. Another > >> >>>> Hurriyat > >> >>> leader Javed Mir was arrested when he > tried to > >> take out a > >> >>>> procession > >> >>> towards Hazratbal in Khanyar > >> >>>> area. > >> >>> > _________________________________________ > >> >>> reader-list: an open > >> >>>> discussion list on media and the > city. > >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >>> To > >> >>>> subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe > >> >>> in > >> >>>> the subject header. > >> >>> To unsubscribe: > >> >>>> > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >>> List archive: > >> >>>> > >> > > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > _________________________________________ > >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list > on media > >> and the city. > >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe in > >> >>> the subject header. > >> >>> To unsubscribe: > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >>> List archive: > >> > > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > _________________________________________ > >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list > on media > >> and the city. > >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >>> To unsubscribe: > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >>> List archive: > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> > >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and > >> the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in > >> >> the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> List archive: > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and > >> the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> List archive: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > > >> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media > and the > >> city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > >> > the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media > and the > >> city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject > >> header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject > >> header. > >> To unsubscribe: > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rajeshr at csds.in Wed Jul 9 15:39:49 2008 From: rajeshr at csds.in (Rajesh Ramakrishnan) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:39:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=60Stranded_Between_Government_and?= =?windows-1252?q?_Opposition=3A_The_Politics_of_the_CPI=28M=29_Sin?= =?windows-1252?q?ce_1989=92?= Message-ID: *Tuesday, 15th July, 2008* You are invited to a talk on: * * *`Stranded Between Government and Opposition: The Politics of the CPI(M) Since 1989'* By *Sanjay Ruparelia*** at *3 PM* in the *Seminar Hall, CSDS, 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi – 110 054* Since 1989, the Communist Party of India-Marxist (CPI-M) has sought to define its national politics through two principal objectives: to limit the advance of Hindu nationalist forces and to halt the deepening of neo-liberal economic reform. For these reasons, the CPI(M) has provided external parliamentary support to anti-BJP coalitions in 1989, 1996 and 2004, without joining government. It has also sought to block the advance of liberal economic reform at the Centre while pursuing it in the states where it governs, particularly West Bengal. This paper investigates the origins, dynamics and consequences of these seeming contradictions. It examines three causal factors in particular: the logic of political self-reproduction in India's federal parliamentary democracy; the narrowing of economic policy options in India's federal market economy; and the conceptions of power, political responsibility and political possibility that inform the strategies and tactics of the party.** Sanjay Ruparelia, Visiting Fellow at CSDS, is Assistant Professor of Political Science at the New School for Social Research. Dr. Ruparelia received his PhD in politics from the Faculty of Social and Political Sciences, University of Cambridge. His present research analyses the relationship between economic liberalisation, militant Hindu nationalism and the rise of lower-caste, communist and regional parties. He is writing a book manuscript, provisionally entitled, "Divided We Govern: Federal Coalition Politics in India", which analyses the importance of institutions, power and judgment in explaining the politics of the 'third force' since 1989. He is also co-editing a multidisciplinary volume of essays, "A Great Transformation? Understanding India's New Political Economy", which examines the preceding general themes. His previous research on federal coalition politics has been published in *Comparative Politics* and *Economic and Political Weekly*. From tapasrayx at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 17:49:14 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 08:19:14 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] great idea In-Reply-To: <109193.19941.qm@web57701.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <109193.19941.qm@web57701.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4874ACC2.7090804@gmail.com> Our freedom fighters were certainly not stupid, but it may be useful to look at it from a broader perspective. Not so long ago, nation states did not even exist. By "not so long ago", I mean in relation to the history of the human race, not an individual's average life span. There was no single nation state called India as we know it today. Its territory was a collection of many kingdoms. Before that, even those kingdoms didn't exist. Same with Europe. Its map had boundaries that were different from today's, and before that, even those boundaries did not exist. There is no reason to believe that country borders as we know them today, will remain unchanged forever, or will not disappear altogether. We can't be sure that these things will happen, but we can't be sure that they won't either. There are people who know the roadmap of history like the back of their hands: feudalism to capitalism to socialism to communism, and stop. Stop dead. Switch off the engine and throw it away. But I am not one of them. I get lost, and repeatedly, even in the city I live in, burning up huge amounts of fuel for nothing! Then why were our freedom fighters - or those of any other postcolonial nation, such as Algeria - not idiots? Because, they were giving expression to the basic human urge for freedom, which can manifest itself as freedom from various kinds of domination - national (colonialism, imperialism), religious, ethnic, caste, etc. etc. - at different times, in different societies, in different combinations. In their time, and in their specific historical circumstance, colonial domination was the heaviest rock crushing them. Other things were lighter. Some, or most of these other things were probably linked with colonialism, but that was the most powerful, most oppressive dominating force. Maybe the day of nationalism has passed now, or is at a transitional stage, evolving into other kinds of motivations. The main thing is, we need a historical perspective. Just my two-bit. Tapas Vedavati Jogi wrote: > NAY-TIONALISM ?.....great idea!, > i think all of us should support it. > NAY-TIONALISM will lead to 'borderless world' > sounds fantastic! > > first step towards attaining this goal of 'borderless world' will be to call back our stupid soldiers who are sacrificing their lives (and wasting our money) in guarding our nation. > > then bangladeshis will occupy indian territory from eastern side, poor pakistan will get free hand for exploding bombs whenever and wherever they want. china will eagerly hug northeastern provinces. > > i think, our freedom fighters were foolish people who wasted their lives in fighting with britishers. independance was not atall required as we don't believe in nationalism. > > vedavati > > > --- On Wed, 7/9/08, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > From: Rahul Asthana > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured > To: reader-list at sarai.net, "inder salim" > Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008, 9:45 AM > > Dear Inder, > I am also "indifferent to nationalism".With that out of the way,what > do you propose we should campaign for,support,preach,do etc with respect to > your pan national vision in general and Kashmir in particular?How can we bring > your dream to fruition in Kashmir?In what way can we help Kashmiris and > Kashmir and make a difference there? > > P.S.1 You don't have to answer this question if this cause is not important > to you.Or maybe just answer it as an academic exercise. > 2.Continuing to dream and write poetry and sing songs is also a valid answer,I > will accept it. > > > Thanks > Rahul > > > --- On Tue, 7/8/08, inder salim wrote: > >> From: inder salim >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 > injured >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 11:24 PM >> Dear Rahul >> have u ever wondered why there is a song called ' >> imagine there is no country ' >> and if it is just a song and everything else is rock solid, >> then i >> feel there is not even iron in the soul, >> it is barren, and our head pieces is filled with staw.... >> >> now what is soul? whenever i go to Socretes as a >> teacher i feel >> the urge to question 'the state' endlessly ... >> similarly when i read >> myth , i see a good a king in the form of Raja Harish >> Chander who >> abandoned his throne for a word..... and again who is great >> prince? I >> think of Buddha.... i think if one fills ones soul with >> such a teacher >> and such a king and prince then that 'iron' might >> keep on coming and >> going...dissolving with the fresh water of a country called >> no-man's >> land >> >> I think of Manto's Toba Tek Singh, in that there is a >> mad character, >> who has no place under the sun upon which is goverened by >> laws and >> systems.... but that his death between the boarders of two >> countries >> smashed nationalism in one go... i like the tools which rip >> a word, a >> system, a status quo...may be i am also mad.... >> >> but there is some method in this madness....and there are >> many >> practiontioners of this madness in our world.. these mad >> people have >> worked passionetly for the understnding of human being..... >> they need >> space to be.... >> >> further, when i say nationalism, i say NAY-TIONALISM... >> this can be >> the mantra....the mantra which restores the existential >> dignity of a >> human being.... >> >> France and Englad fought like mad dogs but today there is a >> single >> currency in europe... why can we dream something similar in >> Aisa, >> >> i think Gandhi ji would be delighted to see that currency >> without his >> toothless image on it.... >> >> you said that i dislike nationalsim, i dont, i am >> indifferent to nationalism.... >> and when people who listens similar music too share halva >> puri or >> nihiri/paya they really share love, >> >> but you know how we oppose our women to marry with men of >> other religion... >> is that STATE you admire....which is busy playing vote bank >> politics >> in the name of democracy... >> >> now, i dont know what is the priorirty of issues in your >> opinion..... >> i think women's issues is as important as environmental >> issues, which >> is as important as ethics and morals which is as important >> as respect >> for the common man.... >> >> and above all, there is something called PAST which >> surpasses our >> written word...surpasses our written history...it is aobut >> that >> memory which is in the form of TIME embedded within us... >> our >> collective memory >> >> it is not about a slogan, saray jahan say >> achha...unfortunately when >> we sing it we sing 'the meaning', but not the >> poem... >> State officers and corrupt ministers of a country... >> >> i dont think i have been able to answer your question.. >> because you >> feel majority is with you...i am minority within the >> minority within >> the minority... >> >> so love >> is >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 8:25 PM, Rahul Asthana >> wrote: >>> Hi Inder, >>> Your position of "not believing in >> nationalism" is typical of many on this list.I am not >> arguing for nationalism against anarchy. I do not think >> there is anything noble in being a nationalist >> \patriot. But I do realize the utilitarian value of the >> concept of nation.Anyhow, lets for a while assume that your >> idea of "not believing in the nationalism" is the >> way to go. >>> What do you suppose we should do now? Organize an >> Indo-Pak concert where someone will sing "Imagine >> there's no country" or perhaps Sayonee by Junoon >> and then everyone will start hugging,kissing and dancing >> kumbaya with each other, halwa poori or nihari\paya >> will be distributed and all will go home and live happily >> ever after. Is that likely to happen? >>> A while back,when I was making the argument that >> sovereign Kashmir is not a feasible state(for reasons that >> I had given earlier),the arguments I got in response was >> that I was not romantic enough,I had a diseased mind, >> Kashmir is too beautiful to stay occupied etc etc.. Then >> there was the usual "I dont believe in >> nationalism". >>> Your dislike of nationalism may be the principle >> around which you frame your argument but THAT STATEMENT, BY >> ITSELF CAN NOT BE YOUR ARGUMENT.If you can build any >> realistic and pragmatic course of action around that >> principle then you should forward it.Just chanting this >> mantra of "not believing in nationalism",is >> neither here nor there and would make you irrelevant.Till >> the time that nation states are a reality you cant just >> ignore them or wish them away. >>> Regards >>> Rahul >>> >>> --- On Tue, 7/8/08, inder salim >> wrote: >>>> From: inder salim >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; >> Shabir Shah among 14 injured >>>> To: reader-list at sarai.net >>>> Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:39 AM >>>> dear kshmendra >>>> >>>> for now, all i want to say is that i am not for >> any kind of >>>> nationalism.... i dont know what that will lead >> to, i think >>>> it will be >>>> perhpas better for humanity, if nation states >> disappear >>>> suddenly and >>>> enable people to move freely on this planet >> earth.... >>>> i have a dream, you may say it is utopian... so >> what. >>>> desire for nation is not bad, i have huge >> admiration for >>>> people like >>>> Bhagat Singh, but the the powers sturctures that >> cling on >>>> the that >>>> state in the name of democracy or people is >> fradulent. Now >>>> dont tell >>>> me that we helpless to not-to-see-the-other >>>> >>>> it is interesting to notice how people's >> simple faith >>>> gets translated >>>> into something necessary costly rituals...say >> prem >>>> chand's Govdaan, >>>> .. . i see misery for the innocent lot, and for >> that i have >>>> every >>>> right to undermine, a state, a religion or an >>>> identiy....and once it >>>> becomes a system that gnaws the dignity >> existential core >>>> of human >>>> being,..... i want to restore that >>>> >>>> one is free to remain glued to something as long >> as it >>>> keeps on >>>> milking other's cow. that is why i talked >> about morals >>>> and ethics. >>>> >>>> now see, there is a great democracy in america and >> england >>>> but when i >>>> comes to their foreign affairs they looks >> barbarians.... >>>> and i dont know how to admire their democratic >> systems >>>> endlessly if >>>> there is no change.... right now, everyting is >> stuck, >>>> just see, what their democracies did to afganistan >> and >>>> iraq. i have >>>> more respect for a poor afgani who >>>> has no choice but to shoot alongwith a taliban >> commander >>>> and work in >>>> poppy fields in comparison to some one who is >> drinking beer >>>> in new >>>> york while criticizing muslim fundamentalism.... >>>> >>>> in that sense, i have nothing against politics, >> but against >>>> the >>>> polticians who are at the helm of affairs.....as >> jean paul >>>> sartre says >>>> that politics enters through all the pores of your >>>> body,....and >>>> realization of that sensitizes me, realization of >> that >>>> reduces my >>>> arrogance, and i think that is how i want to >> understand >>>> politics, >>>> >>>> and that way i know what is the meaning of GAME in >>>> politics.... now you that.... >>>> >>>> now religion, i believe, >>>> the state has no business to enter the affairs of >> the >>>> shrine.... why >>>> on earth state should provide facilites to a >> piligrim... >>>> a true piligrim has to be really prepared , both >> physically >>>> and mentally.... >>>> and above all, SHIVA i believe is about death >> also... you >>>> might be >>>> knowing, there is a mountain , just one stop >> before the >>>> amarnath cave >>>> which is called Bhairav Baal, and it was famous >> for real >>>> piligirms to >>>> climb it and jump on the other side of it....a >> true love of >>>> shiva will >>>> be quite educated and brave and should understand >> the >>>> significance of >>>> death and sprituality in one go... >>>> >>>> i still dont understand how a shiva lover can >> throw stones >>>> at others, >>>> or burn a tyre, if one goes by the kashmiri >> philisophy of >>>> shivaism >>>> well you are within your rights to call it >> politics, but i >>>> see decadence in it >>>> >>>> at the best it is opportunism, and once it is so, >> it is >>>> free for all, >>>> >>>> once we realize the absence of morals and ethics >> in our >>>> political >>>> acitivity, we are at the mercy of goons and the >> politicians >>>> who love >>>> to make a fool of each one of us. >>>> >>>> about disrespect, just show me one communtiy, at >> grass root >>>> level, in >>>> the world history which not suffered humiliation >> at the >>>> hands of their >>>> rulers. >>>> that is why i am not interested in those who >> eulogise kings >>>> and queens >>>> for this or that.... people have suffered, even >> when a >>>> great king was >>>> constructing a Taj mahal or making a great wall in >> china, >>>> same goes >>>> for the construction of great temples and >> mosques.......i >>>> see pain of >>>> a human being in the form of an monument, beauty >> of it >>>> comes next.... >>>> >>>> that way i see the possibity of a shift in >> histroy, that >>>> way we can >>>> see the emergence of a new politics, a new way of >> living, >>>> beyond >>>> mindsets and old designs , old territories.... >>>> >>>> my dear, that muse on the classical canvas died >> long >>>> ago.... we are >>>> finished with waste land even, we have come to a >> stage when >>>> even >>>> writing a poem is impossiblity.... >>>> >>>> politics is dead in that sense...the issue is >> ethics, >>>> environment, and >>>> my favourite word 'love' is kicking >> alive, >>>> with love and regards >>>> is >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >>>> wrote: >>>>> Dear Inder Salim >>>>> >>>>> You say "i know you know well what i am >> talking >>>> about...." >>>>> No Sir I do not. Either we are talking about >> different >>>> things or it must be the limitations of my >> understanding. >>>>> It must also be the limitations of my being >> able to >>>> express myself that you read meanings other than >> what I >>>> think I have placed in my words. >>>>> - I ddear o not know what "GAMES" >> you are >>>> talking about. If you explain them in simple >> words, I might >>>> be able to comment >>>>> - I spoke about "respect" for >>>> "constancy" in "political >> positions". >>>> That could or could not translate into >> "respect" >>>> for the person. That also does not preclude the >> ones being >>>> talked about being political adversaries or being >> enemies >>>> of my country >>>>> - Let me give another example. I see China >> as being >>>> (if not an enemy these days) inimical towards >> India on many >>>> fronts. Yet I have immense respect for China in >> many >>>> spheres. >>>>> - Let me give another example. I see Pakistan >> as >>>> continuing to be an enemy of India. I have no >> respect for >>>> (I have contempt for) Pakistan's shifts over >> Kashmir >>>> especially in the context of it's duplicity >> with the >>>> "Hurriyat Pasand". Yet there are things >> about and >>>> from Pakistan I love. I love their Muslin and >> Men's >>>> Shalvaar Kameez, I love Mehdi Hassan and Nayyara >> Noor and >>>> Sabri Brothers, I love Faiz and Parveen Shakir and >> Amjad >>>> Islam Amjad >>>>> - Saw your list of those you respect. I have >> no >>>> argument with you over that list. >>>>> - You do not respect 'politicians'. >> For me >>>> that is too generalised a statement. Maybe I would >> not >>>> respect "some" or even "most" >>>> politicians" but the political system is >> essential (in >>>> my opinion) to any organised society. Irrespective >> of the >>>> form of Government or quality of Governance, every >> country >>>> has a political system. It has to have one. If >> there >>>> isn't one, there will be anarchy. In the case >> of a >>>> "democracy", the politician is of >> critical >>>> importance to the citizen. The Constitution allows >> Laws, >>>> Laws take shape from Legislation, Legislation is >> enacted by >>>> Legislators, Legislators are Politicians. Every >> aspect of >>>> the quality of life in India (for example) is >> directly or >>>> indirectly affected on and effected by the >> Politicians. You >>>> may be dismissive of Politicians if you want to >> be. For me >>>> Politicians are extremely important entities to be >>>> evaluated and sieved in one's judgement. >>>>> - I am a firm believer that my final societal >> identity >>>> is the Passport I hold or am eligible for. All >> Inter- Nation >>>> interactions including those of their citizens are >>>> conditional to the Laws of each country. Yes I am >> a firm >>>> believer in 'nationalism'. I subscribe to >> Indian >>>> Nationalism. You perhaps are more tuned (correct >> if I have >>>> misheard the strains) into Kashmiri Nationalism. >> Only the >>>> forces of Nature respect no National Boundaries. >> All other >>>> aspects of our lives are linked to the country we >> belong to >>>> (because the Laws of the country govern every >> other aspect >>>> of our lives). Actually the Laws of a Country can >> even >>>> interfere with the reign of Nature, which is when >>>> Environmental Concerns take centre-stage. >>>>> - Is the "Kashmir issue" about >> "Ethics >>>> & Morals"? Perhaps it is to some degree >> in some >>>> areas. I see it more as being about "Rights >> and >>>> Responsibilities" and even more so as being >>>> "Political" and about >> "Religion" >>>>> - You speak about the Kashmiri >> "Muslims" >>>> having been disrespected. I do not understand >> that >>>> judgement. Perhaps you might elaborate on how the >>>> "Muslims" of Kashmir have been >>>> "disrespected". >>>>> - You speak about the SASB affair having >>>> "undermined the sensitivity of .... >> Muslims". >>>> Again I do not understand how SASB affair is >> linked with >>>> "Kashmiri Muslims". Unless of course you >> yourself >>>> subscribe to the view that the SASB affair was one >> of >>>> Muslims against Hindus. >>>>> (By your pointed reference to >> "Muslims" you >>>> seem to be in agreement with me that the >> "Kashmir >>>> Issue" is about "Religion") >>>>> - You speak about " 1990 disrespect to >> kashmiri >>>> pandits" being about "ethics and >> morals". >>>> Perhaps it is to some extent. I see it more as a >> Political >>>> affair. I see it more as failure of governance >> (both at the >>>> Centre and State) in having allowed a "fear >>>> atmosphere" to develop. >>>>> At least in this mail I see the point that >> you are >>>> trying to make. Correct me if I understood >> wrongly. You >>>> state that you "know" what you should >>>> "respect" and seem to suggest I do not >>>> "know". Fair enough. You are entitled to >> your >>>> judgement. >>>>> Kshmendra >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- On Mon, 7/7/08, inder salim >>>> wrote: >>>>> From: inder salim >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near >> Hazratbal; >>>> Shabir Shah among 14 injured >>>>> To: reader-list at sarai.net >>>>> Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 7:00 PM >>>>> >>>>> Dear kshmendra >>>>> >>>>> i quote myself >>>>> >>>>> and once we are finished with these games.... >> only >>>> then we can begin >>>>> to talk about ETHICS and MORALS >>>>> >>>>> it is again your choice to ignore the most >> important >>>> line of my last >>>>> post... i dont feel insecure .... >>>>> >>>>> i know you know well what i am talking >> about.... >>>>> now see, you take a position with regard to >>>> 'Respect', >>>>> you respect, i dont know whethere with >> capital R or >>>> with small r, but >>>>> u respect the politicians who are against the >>>> occupation of indian >>>>> foreces in kashmir.but strangely in the next >> line you >>>> think that they >>>>> are enemies of the indian state and you are >> Indian, >>>> right . >>>>> i >>>>> on the contrary i dont respect a politican, >> ....... i >>>> have respect for >>>>> a poet, a musician, an ariist, a social >> worker a >>>> simple worker, a job >>>>> less man frustrated by the indiferent state. >> i respect >>>> a poor man on >>>>> the road side, i respect a tribalman who is >> contantly >>>> being driven >>>>> out of his ecology , >>>>> >>>>> i respect millions of landless people in >> india.... i >>>> have respect for >>>>> the womens rights, i repect you has a human >> being and >>>> in that sense i >>>>> respect a politician even. >>>>> >>>>> yes, i respect the morals and ethics, more >> than being >>>> a nationalist >>>>> merely as an identity tag....i respect >> rebels...... i >>>> respect my >>>>> teacher AK Mir who publically slapped Mufti >> Mohd Syed >>>> in Bijbehara >>>>> because he as a Congress pradesh president >>>> masterminded 1986 communal >>>>> riots.... i respect a petty theif who threw >> shit on >>>> the judge in delhi >>>>> because he was languishing in the jail and >> could not >>>> afford to bail >>>>> himself out. >>>>> >>>>> i have respect for the courage.... and >> similarly i >>>> have respect for >>>>> those who uphold their existential beings >> wheenver the >>>> state or the >>>>> power structures openly supress and >> disrespects the >>>> ethics and morals >>>>> of the other.... >>>>> >>>>> that is why kashmir issue is about ethics and >> morals >>>> as well..... >>>>> that is why the land transter to shrine board >>>> undermined the >>>>> sensitivity of the already disrespected >> kashmiri >>>> muslims... >>>>> that is why 1990 disrespect to kashmiri >> pandits is >>>> also about ethics >>>>> and morals as well.. >>>>> >>>>> i see human being through this prism of >> ethics and >>>> morals ... i mix >>>>> love with it and see some possiblity to heal >> the self >>>> and the other at >>>>> the same time..i may fail in the end because >> plolitics >>>> is exercised >>>>> quite ruthlessly in india and abroad.... but >> i dont >>>> regret about my >>>>> position. >>>>> >>>>> at least i know what i should respect >>>>> >>>>> with love >>>>> inder salim >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Kshmendra >> Kaul >>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Dear Inder Salim >>>>>> >>>>>> I wish I had understood what point you >> were trying >>>> to make. >>>>>> What I did notice is your quoting me >> partially and >>>> out of context and then >>>>> using that to put a spin on my words so that >> you could >>>> indulge in innuendos and >>>>> make judgements about me. >>>>>> I was talking of having respect for the >>>> 'constant political >>>>> position' of people whoever it may be. >> Geelani was >>>> an example for the sake >>>>> of comparing with (what I see as) >> hypocritical >>>> declamations of the >>>>> "moderate" Hurriyatis (especially >> Umar >>>> Farooq) and their claims of >>>>> their brand of the "Hurriyat" call >> being a >>>> 'secular' one. It >>>>> is called 'munaafaqat'. >>>>>> Just to explain it further, I similarly >> have >>>> respect for the 'constant >>>>> political position' of Yasin Malik in >> that he >>>> wants (or used to want) the >>>>> erstwhile princely State of Jammu & >> Kashmir to be >>>> an Independent Country >>>>> with it's territories freed from both >> Indian and >>>> Pakistani control. Again I >>>>> say this at the risk of being lynched by my >> KP >>>> brethren. Yasin, in proclaiming >>>>> his having eschewed violence was foolish >> enough to >>>> admit that he (and/or JKLF) >>>>> had previous to that indulged in >> 'killings' >>>>>> I disagree with both positions, of >> Geelani and >>>> Yasin, but that does not >>>>> stop me from acknowledging their constancy. >>>>>> Inder you talk about my >> 'positions' but >>>> you obviously have no idea >>>>> of what they are. You only presume. >>>>>> Anyone who seeks to disturb the peace in >> my >>>> country India is for me an >>>>> enemy of the nation. Anyone who seeks to >> break-up >>>> India or bring in violent >>>>> divides between it's people is for me an >> enemy of >>>> India. They should be >>>>> recognised as, dealt with and treated as >> enemies. >>>> Before your make another >>>>> presumption, the 'recognising', >> 'dealing >>>> with' and >>>>> 'treating' as enemies neither >> automatically >>>> means nor is suggested by >>>>> me should be done by repressive means or >> incarceration >>>> or State Violence. >>>>>> The affiliations of these >> 'enemies' are of >>>> no importance. They >>>>> could be from Hurriyat Conference, or JKLF or >> RSS or >>>> VHP or Bajrang Dal or SIMI >>>>> or any other organisation. >>>>>> Kshmendra >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --- On Sun, 7/6/08, inder salim >>>> wrote: >>>>>> From: inder salim >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near >> Hazratbal; >>>> Shabir Shah among 14 >>>>> injured >>>>>> To: reader-list at sarai.net >>>>>> Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 11:39 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear Kshmendra >>>>>> >>>>>> I quote you, "but I have much more >> respect >>>> for the constant political >>>>>> position of someone like Hurriyati >> hardliner Syed >>>> Ali Shah Geelani" >>>>>> just read your statment again and >> remember when >>>> Syed Ali Shah Geelani >>>>>> too said similar about RSS. He really >> dislkes >>>> anything secular >>>>>> because a religous stand is logical for >> both >>>> Geelani sahib and for >>>>>> RSS. anything else is ambigous >>>>>> >>>>>> now i quote you again, "It has >> amused me >>>> more to see how easily the >>>>>> likes of Umar Farooq, Prof Abdul Ghani >> Bhat, >>>> Shabbir Shah (and other >>>>>> Hurriyat 'moderates') are able to >> fool >>>> people into buying their >>>>>> 'secular' credentials" >>>>>> >>>>>> just remember when Atal Behari Vajpayee >> wrote a >>>> poem about the sad >>>>>> demolition of Babri Mosque...The words >> moistened >>>> the eyes of the >>>>>> naive, but we knew how crocodile weeps... >> you also >>>> know it well >>>>>> now i know there are positions, well you >> are >>>> within your rights to >>>>>> hold one ... that is ok >>>>>> >>>>>> i just met a kashmiri pandit who was >> demonstrating >>>> at jantar mantar >>>>>> today.... and i sarcastically >> congratulated about >>>> the news KASHSMIR >>>>>> PANDITOON NAY TODFOD KI, ( riots by >> kashmir >>>> pandits ) It is perhaps >>>>>> for the first time i heard about such a >> news. He >>>> understood and >>>>>> replied quickly... " if we dont >> resort to >>>> thes acts who will listen >>>>> to >>>>>> us, we are politically irrlevant in the >> present >>>> political >>>>>> situation.... we need to read these >> situations >>>> quickly, and we do it >>>>>> from time to time. " >>>>>> >>>>>> now see how their brother is the valley >> do the >>>> same things for their >>>>>> own survial. for example PDP, who need >> to >>>> something from time to time >>>>>> to stay in relevant in the volatite >> politcal games >>>> being played in the >>>>>> valley..... what is so wrong about it if >>>> everything else is not. >>>>>> and once we are finished with these >> games.... only >>>> then we can being >>>>>> to talk about ETHICS and MORALS >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> till then best >>>>>> >>>>>> inder salim >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 12:27 AM, >> Kshmendra Kaul >>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Dear Sonia >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is nothing surprising in the >> religious >>>> place Hazrartbal being >>>>> the >>>>>> start-point for the 'victory' >> rally. It >>>> only reinforces the >>>>> evaluation >>>>>> that the 'victory' was sought by >> one >>>> religion over the other. For >>>>> those >>>>>> who achieved the 'victory', what >> better >>>> place to start the >>>>> celebration >>>>>> than a Shrine/Mosque. >>>>>>> Our 'secular' commentators >> may spout >>>> various theories and >>>>> analyses >>>>>> but those who were a part of that >>>> 'victory' were obviously honest >>>>> about >>>>>> what they had achieved and in the name of >> which >>>> religion. >>>>>>> Whether it has been the 1931 >> 'bread >>>> movement' or the intense >>>>>> rivalry between the 'sher' (of >> Sheikh >>>> Abdullah) and >>>>> 'bakra' (of >>>>>> Maulvi Farooq) or the Hurriyat >>>> (freedom/separatist) movement, the pulpits >>>>> of >>>>>> both Hazratbal and Jama Masjid have been >> used as >>>> much for political >>>>>> speeches/sloganeering and calls for >> separatism as >>>> they have been for >>>>> religious >>>>>> sermons. >>>>>>> It has always amused me to see Umar >> Farooq (as >>>> just one example among >>>>>> others) indulge in such political >>>> speeches/sloganeering from Jama Masjid, >>>>> or >>>>>> visit and seek support from his Political >> Mecca of >>>> OIC (and/or Pakistan) >>>>> and >>>>>> yet at the same time hypocritically claim >> that the >>>> "Hurriyat" >>>>>> movement is a secular one. >>>>>>> It has amused me more to see how >> easily the >>>> likes of Umar Farooq, Prof >>>>>> Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other >> Hurriyat >>>> 'moderates') >>>>> are >>>>>> able to fool people into buying their >>>> 'secular' credentials. >>>>>>> My Kashmiri Pandit brethren might >> lynch me for >>>> saying this, but I have >>>>>> much more respect for the constant >> political >>>> position of someone like >>>>> Hurriyati >>>>>> hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani (even if >> I >>>> disagree with his arguments) >>>>> who is >>>>>> firm in his belief that J&K as Muslim >> Majority >>>> 'territory' >>>>> should >>>>>> be a part of Pakistan. >>>>>>> I am sure you did not mean to equate >> the >>>> situations but I found it >>>>> strange >>>>>> that you mentioned in the same breath the >>>> "peaceful... victory >>>>> rally" >>>>>> starting from Hazratbal with "siege >> of Hazrat >>>> Bal in the early >>>>> '90s or >>>>>> for that matter the siege of Charar >> e-Sharif in >>>> '95 or >>>>>>> for that matter the Golden Temple in >> the >>>> '80s". >>>>>>> In all three 'siege' >> mentioned, there >>>> were bands of armed >>>>>> terrorists holed up inside the three >> religious >>>> places. Some might choose >>>>> to >>>>>> call them 'freedom fighters' or >>>> "Mujahideen". >>>>>>> Kshmendra >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- On Sat, 7/5/08, S. Jabbar >>>> wrote: >>>>>>> From: S. Jabbar >> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle >> near >>>> Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among >>>>> 14 >>>>>> injured >>>>>>> To: "Shivam Vij शिवम् >>>> विज् " >>>>>> , "sarai >> list" >>>>>> >>>>>>> Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 1:07 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think you may want to ask why it >> was >>>> necessary to begin a victory >>>>> rally >>>>>>> from a religious place and how any of >> us would >>>> have reacted if Advani >>>>> were >>>>>>> to embark on another >> 'victory' rally >>>> from Somnath or Ayodhya. >>>>>> These >>>>>>> so-called victory rallies will only >> add fuel >>>> to the Jammu-Kashmir/ >>>>>>> Hindu-Muslim conflagration. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hazrat Bal and the Jama Masjid are >> not neutral >>>> sites and have been >>>>>>> politically charged ever since the >> 1930s when >>>> the Quit Kashmir >>>>> movement >>>>>> was >>>>>>> launched against the Maharaja. What >> must have >>>> started off as an >>>>> equally >>>>>>> 'peaceful' gathering turned >> violent >>>> and a man was killed. >>>>> That >>>>>> was >>>>>>> reason >>>>>>> enough for mass rioting. You may be >> aware of >>>> the siege of Hazrat Bal >>>>> in >>>>>> the >>>>>>> early '90s or for that matter the >> siege of >>>> Charar e-Sharif in >>>>> '95 >>>>>> or >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> that matter the Golden Temple in the >> '80s. >>>>>>> The Hurriyat is not unaware that the >> state >>>> cannot risk a religious >>>>> site >>>>>>> becoming another site of >> contestation. It >>>> would try and control what >>>>> in >>>>>> all >>>>>>> likelihood would turn into yet >> another >>>> communally charged and violent >>>>>> event. >>>>>>> And yet it decided to go ahead. The >> stakes >>>> are high and I really >>>>>> don't >>>>>>> think anyone is above using religion >> to >>>> further their political ends. >>>>>>> --sj >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 7/5/08 12:43 PM, "Shivam Vij >>>> शिवम् >>>>> विज्" >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is what happens when you >> prevent >>>> people from addressing >>>>>>>> peaceful >>>>>>> gatherings... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> o o o o >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah >> among >>>>>>>> 14 injured >>>>>>> Special Correspondent, 5 July >>>>>>>> 2008 >> http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/05/stories/2008070559931300.htm >>>>>>> The clash >>>>>>>> followed prayers to celebrate the >>>> "victory" in the land >>>>>> transfer >>>>>>>> issue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> SRINAGAR: Senior Hurriyat Conference >> leader >>>> Shabir Shah was among >>>>>>>> 14 >>>>>>> people injured on Friday, following a >> scuffle >>>> between police and >>>>>>> supporters >>>>>>>> of separatist leaders after they >> offered >>>> prayers at the >>>>>>> Hazratbal shrine to >>>>>>>> celebrate the recent >> "victory" >>>> in the land >>>>>>> transfer issue. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The call for >>>>>>>> "Hazratbal Chalo" was >> given by >>>> Syed Ali Geelani, head of >>>>>>> a faction of the >>>>>>>> Hurriyat Conference and supported >> by >>>> Mirwaiz Umar >>>>>>> Farooq, head of another. >>>>>>>> However, both were placed under >> house >>>> arrest >>>>>>> by the police. Mr. Shah and other >>>>>>>> leaders, however, reached >> Hazratbal >>>>>>> amid heavy deployment of police and >>>>>>>> paramilitary CRPF and offered >>>>>>> prayers besides addressing the >> people. >>>>>>> Mr. Shah >>>>>>>> and Ashraf Sehrai, another senior >> leader >>>> denounced the >>>>>>> government for putting >>>>>>>> Mr. Geelani and Mr. Mirwaiz under >> house >>>> arrest. >>>>>>> A protester hurls back a tear >>>>>>>> smoke shell towards the police. >>>>>>> On their way back, Mr. Shabir Shah, >> Mr. >>>>>>>> Sehrai, Naeem Khan, Sheikh >>>>>>> Aziz, Shafi Reshi, Firdous Shah and >> others led >>>> a >>>>>>>> strong procession, >>>>>>> which was lathi-charged. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Fourteen people, including Mr. >>>>>>>> Shabir Shah, were injured. He was >>>>>>> shifted to the S.K. Institute of >> Medical >>>>>>>> Sciences (SKIMS) for >>>>>>> treatment. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Even as rumours spread that he was >> critical, >>>>>>>> Director SKIMS Abdul >>>>>>> Hamid Zargar told The Hindu that he >> was >>>> stable. Another >>>>>>>> procession >>>>>>> taken from Jamia Masjid and led by >> the head >>>> imam, was dispersed >>>>>>>> by >>>>>>> police with smoke shells. Many people >> were >>>> arrested. Another >>>>>>>> Hurriyat >>>>>>> leader Javed Mir was arrested when he >> tried to >>>> take out a >>>>>>>> procession >>>>>>> towards Hazratbal in Khanyar >>>>>>>> area. >> _________________________________________ >>>>>>> reader-list: an open >>>>>>>> discussion list on media and the >> city. >>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>> To >>>>>>>> subscribe: send an email to >>>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>> subscribe >>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> the subject header. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>> List archive: >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> _________________________________________ >>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list >> on media >>>> and the city. >>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to >>>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>> subscribe in >>>>>>> the subject header. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>> List archive: >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> _________________________________________ >>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list >> on media >>>> and the city. >>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to >>>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>> List archive: >> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on >> media and >>>> the city. >>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to >>>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in >>>>>> the subject header. >>>>>> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> List archive: >> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on >> media and >>>> the city. >>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to >>>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> List archive: >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media >> and the >>>> city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to >>>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >>>>> the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media >> and the >>>> city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to >>>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the subject >>>> header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: >> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and >> the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to >>>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the subject >>>> header. >>>> To unsubscribe: >>>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>>> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject >> header. >> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 9 19:11:05 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 06:41:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The real reason why oil prices are rising - M R Venkatesh (In Rediff) Message-ID: <828057.11989.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com>   An interesting perspective.   http://www.rediff.com/money/2008/jun/02mrv.htm   The real reason why oil prices are rising M R Venkatesh | June 02, 2008 | 15:02 IST By now it is becoming too obvious that the United States is playing the oil game all over again. And this is the desperate gamble of a country whose economy is neck deep in trouble.   Given this scenario, managing prices of oil is central to the US economic architecture. Expectedly, this gamble has been played in a great alliance between the US government, US financial sector and the media.   I have earlier written about: The impending collapse of the US dollar on account of the inherent weakness in the US economy caused by its structural weakness as reflected in the sub-prime crisis; The repeated softening of the interest rates in the US that has the potency to kill the US dollar; and How the fall in the US dollar suits the US corporate sector, especially its omnipotent financial sector. Naturally, since the past few years, the US financial sector has begun to turn its attention from currency and stock markets to commodity markets. According to The Economist, about $260 billion has been invested into the commodity market -- up nearly 20 times from what it was in 2003.   Coinciding with a weak dollar and this speculative interest of the US financial sector, prices of commodities have soared globally.   And most of these investments are bets placed by hedge and pension funds, always on the lookout for risky but high-yielding investments. What is indeed interesting to note here is that unlike margin requirements for stocks which are as high as 50 per cent in many markets, the margin requirements for commodities is a mere 5-7 per cent.   This implies that with an outlay of a mere $260 billion these speculators would be able to take positions of approximately $5 trillion -- yes, $5 trillion! -- in the futures markets. It is estimated that half of these are bets placed on oil.   Readers may note that oil is internationally traded in New York and London and denominated in US dollar only. Naturally, it has been opined by experts that since the advent of oil futures, oil prices are no longer controlled by OPEC (Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries). Rather, it is now done by Wall Street.   This tectonic shift in the determination of international oil prices from the hands of producers to the hands of speculators is crucial to understanding the oil price rise.   Today's oil prices are believed to be determined by the four Anglo-American financial companies-turned-oil traders, viz., Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, J P Morgan Chase, and Morgan Stanley. It is only they who have any idea about who is entering into oil futures or derivative contracts. It is also they who are placing bets on oil prices and in the process ensuring that the prices of oil futures go up by the day.   But how does the increase in the price of this oil in the futures market determine the prices of oil in the spot markets? Crucially, does speculation in oil influence and determine the prices of oil in the spot markets?   Answering these questions as to whether speculation has supercharged the demand for oil The Economist, in its recent issue, states: 'But that is plain wrong. Such speculators do not own real oil. Every barrel they buy in the futures markets they sell back again before the contract ends. That may raise the price of 'paper barrels,' but not of the black stuff refiners turn into petrol. It is true that high futures prices could lead someone to hoard oil today in the hope of a higher price tomorrow. But inventories are not especially full just now and there are few signs of hoarding.'   On both counts -- that speculation in oil is not pushing up oil prices, as well as on the issue of the build-up of inventories -- the venerable Economist is wrong.   The finding of US Senate Committee in 2006   In June 2006, when the oil price in the futures markets was about $60 a barrel, a Senate Committee in the US probed the role of market speculation in oil and gas prices. The report points out that large purchase of crude oil futures contracts by speculators has, in effect, created additional demand for oil and in the process driven up the future prices of oil. The report further stated that it was 'difficult to quantify the effect of speculation on prices,' but concluded that 'there is substantial evidence that the large amount of speculation in the current market has significantly increased prices.'   The report further estimated that speculative purchases of oil futures had added as much as $20-25 per barrel to the then prevailing price of $60 per barrel. In today's prices of approximately $130 per barrel, this means that approximately $100 per barrel could be attributed to speculation!   But the report found a serious loophole in the US regulation of oil derivatives trading, which according to experts could allow even a 'herd of elephants to walk to through it.' The report pointed out that US energy futures were traded on regulated exchanges within the US and subjected to extensive oversight by the Commodities Future Trading Commission (CFTC) -- the US regulator for commodity futures market.   In recent years, the report however pointed out to the tremendous growth in the trading of contracts which were traded on unregulated OTC (over-the-counter) electronic markets. Interestingly, the report pointed out that the trading of energy commodities by large firms on OTC electronic exchanges was exempted from CFTC oversight by a provision inserted at the behest of Enron into the Commodity Futures Modernization Act in 2000.   The report concludes that consequential impact on account of lack of market oversight has been 'substantial.'   NYMEX (New York Mercantile Exchange) traders are required to keep records of all trades and report large trades to the CFTC enabling it to gauge the extent of speculation in the markets and to detect, prevent, and prosecute price manipulation. In contrast, however, traders on unregulated OTC electronic exchanges are not required to keep records or file any information with the CFTC as these trades are exempt from its oversight.   Consequently, as there is no monitoring of such trading by the oversight body, the committee believes that it allows speculators to indulge in price manipulation.   Finally, the report concludes that to a certain extent, whether or not any level of speculation is 'excessive' lies entirely in the eye of the beholder. In the absence of data, however, it is impossible to begin the analysis or engage in an informed debate over whether our energy markets are functioning properly or are in the midst of a speculative bubble.   That was two years back. And much water has flown in the Mississippi since then.     The link to the spot markets   Now to answer the second leg of the question: how speculators are able to translate the future prices into spot prices.   The answer to this question is fairly simple. After all, oil price is highly inelastic -- i.e. even a substantial increase in price does not alter the consumption pattern. No wonder, a mere 3-4 per cent annual global growth has translated into more than a 40 per cent annual increase in prices for the past three or four years.   But there is more to it. One may note that the world supply and demand is evenly matched at about 85 million barrels every day. Only if supplies exceed demand by a substantial margin can any downward pressure on oil prices be created. In contrast, if someone with deep pockets picks up even a small quantity of oil, it dramatically alters the delicate global demand-supply gap, creating enormous upward pressure on prices.   What is interesting to note is that the US strategic oil reserves were at approximately 350 million barrels for a decade till 2006. However, for the past year and a half these reserves have doubled to more than 700 million barrels. Naturally, this build-up of strategic oil reserves by the US (of 350 million barrels) is adding enormous pressure on the oil demand and consequently its prices.   Do the oil speculators know of this reserves build-up by the US and are indulging in rampant speculation? Are they acting in tandem with the US government? Worse still, are they bordering on recklessness knowing fully well that if the oil prices fall the US government will be forced to a?'Bears Stearns' on them and bail them out? One is not sure.   But who foots bill at such high prices? At an average price of even $100 per barrel, the entire cost for the purchase of this additional 350 million barrels by the US works out to a mere $35 billion. Needless to emphasise, this can be funded by the US by allowing it currency printing presses to work overtime. After all, it has a currency that is acceptable globally and people worldwide are willing to exchange it for precious oil.   No wonder?Goldman Sachs predicts that oil will touch $200 to a barrel shortly, knowing fully well that the US government will back its prediction.   And, in the past three years alone the world has paid an estimated additional $3 trillion for its oil purchases. Oil speculators (and not oil producers) are the biggest beneficiaries of this price increase.   In the process, the US has been able to keep the value of the US dollar afloat -- perhaps at an extra cost of a mere $35 billion to its exchequer!   The global crude oil price rise is complex, sinister and beyond innocent economic theories of demand and supply. It is speculation, geopolitics and much more. Obviously, there is a symbiotic link between the US, the US dollar and the oil prices. And unless this truth is understood and the link broken, oil prices cannot be controlled.   From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 19:11:10 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 19:11:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured In-Reply-To: <36514.58148.qm@web53607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <47e122a70807081054m76c20733l7c1e6c4540240a14@mail.gmail.com> <36514.58148.qm@web53607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70807090641i79ff256cqc5d281575455e39a@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rahul thanks for the curiosity to know, unfortunately there is no readymade answer, ... since we have part of ready-made called WORLD so, i beleive, threre is really no one to lead us, we have to emanicipate ourselves, that is ancient WISDOM as well. i like the word 'disseminate' by Derrida. but i want to escape the academics of it, Derrida wants much more than that.... he thinks that real deconstruction of word may ultimately lapse into performatics in a given time and space, without any repeat.... we have to perform our life...i am not willing to perform as a teacher ( even right now ) because there is none in the first place, i guess solutions to problems are around, once we become arrive at some clarity point by point.... i guess, if one is ready to feel creaitivity in any field, solutions will come to us themselves. if kashmiris really want freedom they will become creative, by creativity, i dont mean that they should start to paint tomorrow, or becomes poets , creativity in anthropological sense, wherein everybody feels she or he is an artists ( i repeat Joseph Bouys )but there are distractions, an endless chain of interests, which keeps us at bay,,, that we never achieved freedom in 1947, but may be a flag, which even nationlists dont exhibit in their bed rooms or drawing rooms,... they like to surround themselves with Gods and godesses when some impotency marches in ... But events , in histroy, are so overwhelming that we are too handicapped to see what to happing to us even when we are celebrating , an event which deserves our intimacy.... we are perhaps, too complete in our minds to realise the incompleteness of our beings, that is why we become hysterical at times... and that is why become curious to know, that is why we yearn to fall in love, because we want to weep even, we dont really know what we want.... we may keep on asking, the other and the self at the same time... we are bound to collapse in the process, but that may be perhaps the essense of being alive, ALIVE ( dont listen the word, for a fraction of second ) and then ... i am myself learing this way, or that way,,, with love is On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 7:15 AM, Rahul Asthana wrote: > Dear Inder, > I am also "indifferent to nationalism".With that out of the way,what do you propose we should campaign for,support,preach,do etc with respect to your pan national vision in general and Kashmir in particular?How can we bring your dream to fruition in Kashmir?In what way can we help Kashmiris and Kashmir and make a difference there? > > P.S.1 You don't have to answer this question if this cause is not important to you.Or maybe just answer it as an academic exercise. > 2.Continuing to dream and write poetry and sing songs is also a valid answer,I will accept it. > > > Thanks > Rahul > > > --- On Tue, 7/8/08, inder salim wrote: > >> From: inder salim >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 11:24 PM >> Dear Rahul >> have u ever wondered why there is a song called ' >> imagine there is no country ' >> and if it is just a song and everything else is rock solid, >> then i >> feel there is not even iron in the soul, >> it is barren, and our head pieces is filled with staw.... >> >> now what is soul? whenever i go to Socretes as a >> teacher i feel >> the urge to question 'the state' endlessly ... >> similarly when i read >> myth , i see a good a king in the form of Raja Harish >> Chander who >> abandoned his throne for a word..... and again who is great >> prince? I >> think of Buddha.... i think if one fills ones soul with >> such a teacher >> and such a king and prince then that 'iron' might >> keep on coming and >> going...dissolving with the fresh water of a country called >> no-man's >> land >> >> I think of Manto's Toba Tek Singh, in that there is a >> mad character, >> who has no place under the sun upon which is goverened by >> laws and >> systems.... but that his death between the boarders of two >> countries >> smashed nationalism in one go... i like the tools which rip >> a word, a >> system, a status quo...may be i am also mad.... >> >> but there is some method in this madness....and there are >> many >> practiontioners of this madness in our world.. these mad >> people have >> worked passionetly for the understnding of human being..... >> they need >> space to be.... >> >> further, when i say nationalism, i say NAY-TIONALISM... >> this can be >> the mantra....the mantra which restores the existential >> dignity of a >> human being.... >> >> France and Englad fought like mad dogs but today there is a >> single >> currency in europe... why can we dream something similar in >> Aisa, >> >> i think Gandhi ji would be delighted to see that currency >> without his >> toothless image on it.... >> >> you said that i dislike nationalsim, i dont, i am >> indifferent to nationalism.... >> and when people who listens similar music too share halva >> puri or >> nihiri/paya they really share love, >> >> but you know how we oppose our women to marry with men of >> other religion... >> is that STATE you admire....which is busy playing vote bank >> politics >> in the name of democracy... >> >> now, i dont know what is the priorirty of issues in your >> opinion..... >> i think women's issues is as important as environmental >> issues, which >> is as important as ethics and morals which is as important >> as respect >> for the common man.... >> >> and above all, there is something called PAST which >> surpasses our >> written word...surpasses our written history...it is aobut >> that >> memory which is in the form of TIME embedded within us... >> our >> collective memory >> >> it is not about a slogan, saray jahan say >> achha...unfortunately when >> we sing it we sing 'the meaning', but not the >> poem... >> State officers and corrupt ministers of a country... >> >> i dont think i have been able to answer your question.. >> because you >> feel majority is with you...i am minority within the >> minority within >> the minority... >> >> so love >> is >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 8:25 PM, Rahul Asthana >> wrote: >> > Hi Inder, >> > Your position of "not believing in >> nationalism" is typical of many on this list.I am not >> arguing for nationalism against anarchy. I do not think >> there is anything noble in being a nationalist >> \patriot. But I do realize the utilitarian value of the >> concept of nation.Anyhow, lets for a while assume that your >> idea of "not believing in the nationalism" is the >> way to go. >> > What do you suppose we should do now? Organize an >> Indo-Pak concert where someone will sing "Imagine >> there's no country" or perhaps Sayonee by Junoon >> and then everyone will start hugging,kissing and dancing >> kumbaya with each other, halwa poori or nihari\paya >> will be distributed and all will go home and live happily >> ever after. Is that likely to happen? >> > A while back,when I was making the argument that >> sovereign Kashmir is not a feasible state(for reasons that >> I had given earlier),the arguments I got in response was >> that I was not romantic enough,I had a diseased mind, >> Kashmir is too beautiful to stay occupied etc etc.. Then >> there was the usual "I dont believe in >> nationalism". >> > Your dislike of nationalism may be the principle >> around which you frame your argument but THAT STATEMENT, BY >> ITSELF CAN NOT BE YOUR ARGUMENT.If you can build any >> realistic and pragmatic course of action around that >> principle then you should forward it.Just chanting this >> mantra of "not believing in nationalism",is >> neither here nor there and would make you irrelevant.Till >> the time that nation states are a reality you cant just >> ignore them or wish them away. >> > >> > Regards >> > Rahul >> > >> > --- On Tue, 7/8/08, inder salim >> wrote: >> > >> >> From: inder salim >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; >> Shabir Shah among 14 injured >> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> >> Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:39 AM >> >> dear kshmendra >> >> >> >> for now, all i want to say is that i am not for >> any kind of >> >> nationalism.... i dont know what that will lead >> to, i think >> >> it will be >> >> perhpas better for humanity, if nation states >> disappear >> >> suddenly and >> >> enable people to move freely on this planet >> earth.... >> >> >> >> i have a dream, you may say it is utopian... so >> what. >> >> >> >> desire for nation is not bad, i have huge >> admiration for >> >> people like >> >> Bhagat Singh, but the the powers sturctures that >> cling on >> >> the that >> >> state in the name of democracy or people is >> fradulent. Now >> >> dont tell >> >> me that we helpless to not-to-see-the-other >> >> >> >> it is interesting to notice how people's >> simple faith >> >> gets translated >> >> into something necessary costly rituals... say >> prem >> >> chand's Govdaan, >> >> .. . i see misery for the innocent lot, and for >> that i have >> >> every >> >> right to undermine, a state, a religion or an >> >> identiy....and once it >> >> becomes a system that gnaws the dignity >> existential core >> >> of human >> >> being,..... i want to restore that >> >> >> >> one is free to remain glued to something as long >> as it >> >> keeps on >> >> milking other's cow. that is why i talked >> about morals >> >> and ethics. >> >> >> >> now see, there is a great democracy in america and >> england >> >> but when i >> >> comes to their foreign affairs they looks >> barbarians.... >> >> and i dont know how to admire their democratic >> systems >> >> endlessly if >> >> there is no change.... right now, everyting is >> stuck, >> >> >> >> just see, what their democracies did to afganistan >> and >> >> iraq. i have >> >> more respect for a poor afgani who >> >> has no choice but to shoot alongwith a taliban >> commander >> >> and work in >> >> poppy fields in comparison to some one who is >> drinking beer >> >> in new >> >> york while criticizing muslim fundamentalism.... >> >> >> >> in that sense, i have nothing against politics, >> but against >> >> the >> >> polticians who are at the helm of affairs.....as >> jean paul >> >> sartre says >> >> that politics enters through all the pores of your >> >> body,....and >> >> realization of that sensitizes me, realization of >> that >> >> reduces my >> >> arrogance, and i think that is how i want to >> understand >> >> politics, >> >> >> >> and that way i know what is the meaning of GAME in >> >> politics.... now you that.... >> >> >> >> now religion, i believe, >> >> the state has no business to enter the affairs of >> the >> >> shrine.... why >> >> on earth state should provide facilites to a >> piligrim... >> >> a true piligrim has to be really prepared , both >> physically >> >> and mentally.... >> >> and above all, SHIVA i believe is about death >> also... you >> >> might be >> >> knowing, there is a mountain , just one stop >> before the >> >> amarnath cave >> >> which is called Bhairav Baal, and it was famous >> for real >> >> piligirms to >> >> climb it and jump on the other side of it....a >> true love of >> >> shiva will >> >> be quite educated and brave and should understand >> the >> >> significance of >> >> death and sprituality in one go... >> >> >> >> i still dont understand how a shiva lover can >> throw stones >> >> at others, >> >> or burn a tyre, if one goes by the kashmiri >> philisophy of >> >> shivaism >> >> well you are within your rights to call it >> politics, but i >> >> see decadence in it >> >> >> >> at the best it is opportunism, and once it is so, >> it is >> >> free for all, >> >> >> >> once we realize the absence of morals and ethics >> in our >> >> political >> >> acitivity, we are at the mercy of goons and the >> politicians >> >> who love >> >> to make a fool of each one of us. >> >> >> >> about disrespect, just show me one communtiy, at >> grass root >> >> level, in >> >> the world history which not suffered humiliation >> at the >> >> hands of their >> >> rulers. >> >> that is why i am not interested in those who >> eulogise kings >> >> and queens >> >> for this or that.... people have suffered, even >> when a >> >> great king was >> >> constructing a Taj mahal or making a great wall in >> china, >> >> same goes >> >> for the construction of great temples and >> mosques.......i >> >> see pain of >> >> a human being in the form of an monument, beauty >> of it >> >> comes next.... >> >> >> >> that way i see the possibity of a shift in >> histroy, that >> >> way we can >> >> see the emergence of a new politics, a new way of >> living, >> >> beyond >> >> mindsets and old designs , old territories.... >> >> >> >> my dear, that muse on the classical canvas died >> long >> >> ago.... we are >> >> finished with waste land even, we have come to a >> stage when >> >> even >> >> writing a poem is impossiblity.... >> >> >> >> politics is dead in that sense...the issue is >> ethics, >> >> environment, and >> >> my favourite word 'love' is kicking >> alive, >> >> >> >> with love and regards >> >> is >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >> >> wrote: >> >> > Dear Inder Salim >> >> > >> >> > You say "i know you know well what i am >> talking >> >> about...." >> >> > >> >> > No Sir I do not. Either we are talking about >> different >> >> things or it must be the limitations of my >> understanding. >> >> > >> >> > It must also be the limitations of my being >> able to >> >> express myself that you read meanings other than >> what I >> >> think I have placed in my words. >> >> > >> >> > - I ddear o not know what "GAMES" >> you are >> >> talking about. If you explain them in simple >> words, I might >> >> be able to comment >> >> > >> >> > - I spoke about "respect" for >> >> "constancy" in "political >> positions". >> >> That could or could not translate into >> "respect" >> >> for the person. That also does not preclude the >> ones being >> >> talked about being political adversaries or being >> enemies >> >> of my country >> >> > >> >> > - Let me give another example. I see China >> as being >> >> (if not an enemy these days) inimical towards >> India on many >> >> fronts. Yet I have immense respect for China in >> many >> >> spheres. >> >> > >> >> > - Let me give another example. I see Pakistan >> as >> >> continuing to be an enemy of India. I have no >> respect for >> >> (I have contempt for) Pakistan's shifts over >> Kashmir >> >> especially in the context of it's duplicity >> with the >> >> "Hurriyat Pasand". Yet there are things >> about and >> >> from Pakistan I love. I love their Muslin and >> Men's >> >> Shalvaar Kameez, I love Mehdi Hassan and Nayyara >> Noor and >> >> Sabri Brothers, I love Faiz and Parveen Shakir and >> Amjad >> >> Islam Amjad >> >> > >> >> > - Saw your list of those you respect. I have >> no >> >> argument with you over that list. >> >> > >> >> > - You do not respect 'politicians'. >> For me >> >> that is too generalised a statement. Maybe I would >> not >> >> respect "some" or even "most" >> >> politicians" but the political system is >> essential (in >> >> my opinion) to any organised society. Irrespective >> of the >> >> form of Government or quality of Governance, every >> country >> >> has a political system. It has to have one. If >> there >> >> isn't one, there will be anarchy. In the case >> of a >> >> "democracy", the politician is of >> critical >> >> importance to the citizen. The Constitution allows >> Laws, >> >> Laws take shape from Legislation, Legislation is >> enacted by >> >> Legislators, Legislators are Politicians. Every >> aspect of >> >> the quality of life in India (for example) is >> directly or >> >> indirectly affected on and effected by the >> Politicians. You >> >> may be dismissive of Politicians if you want to >> be. For me >> >> Politicians are extremely important entities to be >> >> evaluated and sieved in one's judgement. >> >> > >> >> > - I am a firm believer that my final societal >> identity >> >> is the Passport I hold or am eligible for. All >> Inter- Nation >> >> interactions including those of their citizens are >> >> conditional to the Laws of each country. Yes I am >> a firm >> >> believer in 'nationalism'. I subscribe to >> Indian >> >> Nationalism. You perhaps are more tuned (correct >> if I have >> >> misheard the strains) into Kashmiri Nationalism. >> Only the >> >> forces of Nature respect no National Boundaries. >> All other >> >> aspects of our lives are linked to the country we >> belong to >> >> (because the Laws of the country govern every >> other aspect >> >> of our lives). Actually the Laws of a Country can >> even >> >> interfere with the reign of Nature, which is when >> >> Environmental Concerns take centre-stage. >> >> > >> >> > - Is the "Kashmir issue" about >> "Ethics >> >> & Morals"? Perhaps it is to some degree >> in some >> >> areas. I see it more as being about "Rights >> and >> >> Responsibilities" and even more so as being >> >> "Political" and about >> "Religion" >> >> > >> >> > - You speak about the Kashmiri >> "Muslims" >> >> having been disrespected. I do not understand >> that >> >> judgement. Perhaps you might elaborate on how the >> >> "Muslims" of Kashmir have been >> >> "disrespected". >> >> > >> >> > - You speak about the SASB affair having >> >> "undermined the sensitivity of .... >> Muslims". >> >> Again I do not understand how SASB affair is >> linked with >> >> "Kashmiri Muslims". Unless of course you >> yourself >> >> subscribe to the view that the SASB affair was one >> of >> >> Muslims against Hindus. >> >> > >> >> > (By your pointed reference to >> "Muslims" you >> >> seem to be in agreement with me that the >> "Kashmir >> >> Issue" is about "Religion") >> >> > >> >> > - You speak about " 1990 disrespect to >> kashmiri >> >> pandits" being about "ethics and >> morals". >> >> Perhaps it is to some extent. I see it more as a >> Political >> >> affair. I see it more as failure of governance >> (both at the >> >> Centre and State) in having allowed a "fear >> >> atmosphere" to develop. >> >> > >> >> > At least in this mail I see the point that >> you are >> >> trying to make. Correct me if I understood >> wrongly. You >> >> state that you "know" what you should >> >> "respect" and seem to suggest I do not >> >> "know". Fair enough. You are entitled to >> your >> >> judgement. >> >> > >> >> > Kshmendra >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > --- On Mon, 7/7/08, inder salim >> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > From: inder salim >> >> >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near >> Hazratbal; >> >> Shabir Shah among 14 injured >> >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net >> >> > Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 7:00 PM >> >> > >> >> > Dear kshmendra >> >> > >> >> > i quote myself >> >> > >> >> > and once we are finished with these games.... >> only >> >> then we can begin >> >> > to talk about ETHICS and MORALS >> >> > >> >> > it is again your choice to ignore the most >> important >> >> line of my last >> >> > post... i dont feel insecure .... >> >> > >> >> > i know you know well what i am talking >> about.... >> >> > >> >> > now see, you take a position with regard to >> >> 'Respect', >> >> > you respect, i dont know whethere with >> capital R or >> >> with small r, but >> >> > u respect the politicians who are against the >> >> occupation of indian >> >> > foreces in kashmir.but strangely in the next >> line you >> >> think that they >> >> > are enemies of the indian state and you are >> Indian, >> >> right . >> >> > i >> >> > on the contrary i dont respect a politican, >> ....... i >> >> have respect for >> >> > a poet, a musician, an ariist, a social >> worker a >> >> simple worker, a job >> >> > less man frustrated by the indiferent state. >> i respect >> >> a poor man on >> >> > the road side, i respect a tribalman who is >> contantly >> >> being driven >> >> > out of his ecology , >> >> > >> >> > i respect millions of landless people in >> india.... i >> >> have respect for >> >> > the womens rights, i repect you has a human >> being and >> >> in that sense i >> >> > respect a politician even. >> >> > >> >> > yes, i respect the morals and ethics, more >> than being >> >> a nationalist >> >> > merely as an identity tag....i respect >> rebels...... i >> >> respect my >> >> > teacher AK Mir who publically slapped Mufti >> Mohd Syed >> >> in Bijbehara >> >> > because he as a Congress pradesh president >> >> masterminded 1986 communal >> >> > riots.... i respect a petty theif who threw >> shit on >> >> the judge in delhi >> >> > because he was languishing in the jail and >> could not >> >> afford to bail >> >> > himself out. >> >> > >> >> > i have respect for the courage.... and >> similarly i >> >> have respect for >> >> > those who uphold their existential beings >> wheenver the >> >> state or the >> >> > power structures openly supress and >> disrespects the >> >> ethics and morals >> >> > of the other.... >> >> > >> >> > that is why kashmir issue is about ethics and >> morals >> >> as well..... >> >> > >> >> > that is why the land transter to shrine board >> >> undermined the >> >> > sensitivity of the already disrespected >> kashmiri >> >> muslims... >> >> > >> >> > that is why 1990 disrespect to kashmiri >> pandits is >> >> also about ethics >> >> > and morals as well.. >> >> > >> >> > i see human being through this prism of >> ethics and >> >> morals ... i mix >> >> > love with it and see some possiblity to heal >> the self >> >> and the other at >> >> > the same time..i may fail in the end because >> plolitics >> >> is exercised >> >> > quite ruthlessly in india and abroad.... but >> i dont >> >> regret about my >> >> > position. >> >> > >> >> > at least i know what i should respect >> >> > >> >> > with love >> >> > inder salim >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Kshmendra >> Kaul >> >> >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> Dear Inder Salim >> >> >> >> >> >> I wish I had understood what point you >> were trying >> >> to make. >> >> >> >> >> >> What I did notice is your quoting me >> partially and >> >> out of context and then >> >> > using that to put a spin on my words so that >> you could >> >> indulge in innuendos and >> >> > make judgements about me. >> >> >> >> >> >> I was talking of having respect for the >> >> 'constant political >> >> > position' of people whoever it may be. >> Geelani was >> >> an example for the sake >> >> > of comparing with (what I see as) >> hypocritical >> >> declamations of the >> >> > "moderate" Hurriyatis (especially >> Umar >> >> Farooq) and their claims of >> >> > their brand of the "Hurriyat" call >> being a >> >> 'secular' one. It >> >> > is called 'munaafaqat'. >> >> >> >> >> >> Just to explain it further, I similarly >> have >> >> respect for the 'constant >> >> > political position' of Yasin Malik in >> that he >> >> wants (or used to want) the >> >> > erstwhile princely State of Jammu & >> Kashmir to be >> >> an Independent Country >> >> > with it's territories freed from both >> Indian and >> >> Pakistani control. Again I >> >> > say this at the risk of being lynched by my >> KP >> >> brethren. Yasin, in proclaiming >> >> > his having eschewed violence was foolish >> enough to >> >> admit that he (and/or JKLF) >> >> > had previous to that indulged in >> 'killings' >> >> >> >> >> >> I disagree with both positions, of >> Geelani and >> >> Yasin, but that does not >> >> > stop me from acknowledging their constancy. >> >> >> >> >> >> Inder you talk about my >> 'positions' but >> >> you obviously have no idea >> >> > of what they are. You only presume. >> >> >> >> >> >> Anyone who seeks to disturb the peace in >> my >> >> country India is for me an >> >> > enemy of the nation. Anyone who seeks to >> break-up >> >> India or bring in violent >> >> > divides between it's people is for me an >> enemy of >> >> India. They should be >> >> > recognised as, dealt with and treated as >> enemies. >> >> Before your make another >> >> > presumption, the 'recognising', >> 'dealing >> >> with' and >> >> > 'treating' as enemies neither >> automatically >> >> means nor is suggested by >> >> > me should be done by repressive means or >> incarceration >> >> or State Violence. >> >> >> >> >> >> The affiliations of these >> 'enemies' are of >> >> no importance. They >> >> > could be from Hurriyat Conference, or JKLF or >> RSS or >> >> VHP or Bajrang Dal or SIMI >> >> > or any other organisation. >> >> >> >> >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- On Sun, 7/6/08, inder salim >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> From: inder salim >> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near >> Hazratbal; >> >> Shabir Shah among 14 >> >> > injured >> >> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> >> >> Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 11:39 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> Dear Kshmendra >> >> >> >> >> >> I quote you, "but I have much more >> respect >> >> for the constant political >> >> >> position of someone like Hurriyati >> hardliner Syed >> >> Ali Shah Geelani" >> >> >> >> >> >> just read your statment again and >> remember when >> >> Syed Ali Shah Geelani >> >> >> too said similar about RSS. He really >> dislkes >> >> anything secular >> >> >> because a religous stand is logical for >> both >> >> Geelani sahib and for >> >> >> RSS. anything else is ambigous >> >> >> >> >> >> now i quote you again, "It has >> amused me >> >> more to see how easily the >> >> >> likes of Umar Farooq, Prof Abdul Ghani >> Bhat, >> >> Shabbir Shah (and other >> >> >> Hurriyat 'moderates') are able to >> fool >> >> people into buying their >> >> >> 'secular' credentials" >> >> >> >> >> >> just remember when Atal Behari Vajpayee >> wrote a >> >> poem about the sad >> >> >> demolition of Babri Mosque...The words >> moistened >> >> the eyes of the >> >> >> naive, but we knew how crocodile weeps... >> you also >> >> know it well >> >> >> >> >> >> now i know there are positions, well you >> are >> >> within your rights to >> >> >> hold one ... that is ok >> >> >> >> >> >> i just met a kashmiri pandit who was >> demonstrating >> >> at jantar mantar >> >> >> today.... and i sarcastically >> congratulated about >> >> the news KASHSMIR >> >> >> PANDITOON NAY TODFOD KI, ( riots by >> kashmir >> >> pandits ) It is perhaps >> >> >> for the first time i heard about such a >> news. He >> >> understood and >> >> >> replied quickly... " if we dont >> resort to >> >> thes acts who will listen >> >> > to >> >> >> us, we are politically irrlevant in the >> present >> >> political >> >> >> situation.... we need to read these >> situations >> >> quickly, and we do it >> >> >> from time to time. " >> >> >> >> >> >> now see how their brother is the valley >> do the >> >> same things for their >> >> >> own survial. for example PDP, who need >> to >> >> something from time to time >> >> >> to stay in relevant in the volatite >> politcal games >> >> being played in the >> >> >> valley..... what is so wrong about it if >> >> everything else is not. >> >> >> >> >> >> and once we are finished with these >> games.... only >> >> then we can being >> >> >> to talk about ETHICS and MORALS >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> till then best >> >> >> >> >> >> inder salim >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 12:27 AM, >> Kshmendra Kaul >> >> > >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >>> Dear Sonia >> >> >>> >> >> >>> There is nothing surprising in the >> religious >> >> place Hazrartbal being >> >> > the >> >> >> start-point for the 'victory' >> rally. It >> >> only reinforces the >> >> > evaluation >> >> >> that the 'victory' was sought by >> one >> >> religion over the other. For >> >> > those >> >> >> who achieved the 'victory', what >> better >> >> place to start the >> >> > celebration >> >> >> than a Shrine/Mosque. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Our 'secular' commentators >> may spout >> >> various theories and >> >> > analyses >> >> >> but those who were a part of that >> >> 'victory' were obviously honest >> >> > about >> >> >> what they had achieved and in the name of >> which >> >> religion. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Whether it has been the 1931 >> 'bread >> >> movement' or the intense >> >> >> rivalry between the 'sher' (of >> Sheikh >> >> Abdullah) and >> >> > 'bakra' (of >> >> >> Maulvi Farooq) or the Hurriyat >> >> (freedom/separatist) movement, the pulpits >> >> > of >> >> >> both Hazratbal and Jama Masjid have been >> used as >> >> much for political >> >> >> speeches/sloganeering and calls for >> separatism as >> >> they have been for >> >> > religious >> >> >> sermons. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> It has always amused me to see Umar >> Farooq (as >> >> just one example among >> >> >> others) indulge in such political >> >> speeches/sloganeering from Jama Masjid, >> >> > or >> >> >> visit and seek support from his Political >> Mecca of >> >> OIC (and/or Pakistan) >> >> > and >> >> >> yet at the same time hypocritically claim >> that the >> >> "Hurriyat" >> >> >> movement is a secular one. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> It has amused me more to see how >> easily the >> >> likes of Umar Farooq, Prof >> >> >> Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other >> Hurriyat >> >> 'moderates') >> >> > are >> >> >> able to fool people into buying their >> >> 'secular' credentials. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> My Kashmiri Pandit brethren might >> lynch me for >> >> saying this, but I have >> >> >> much more respect for the constant >> political >> >> position of someone like >> >> > Hurriyati >> >> >> hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani (even if >> I >> >> disagree with his arguments) >> >> > who is >> >> >> firm in his belief that J&K as Muslim >> Majority >> >> 'territory' >> >> > should >> >> >> be a part of Pakistan. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> I am sure you did not mean to equate >> the >> >> situations but I found it >> >> > strange >> >> >> that you mentioned in the same breath the >> >> "peaceful... victory >> >> > rally" >> >> >> starting from Hazratbal with "siege >> of Hazrat >> >> Bal in the early >> >> > '90s or >> >> >> for that matter the siege of Charar >> e-Sharif in >> >> '95 or >> >> >>> for that matter the Golden Temple in >> the >> >> '80s". >> >> >>> >> >> >>> In all three 'siege' >> mentioned, there >> >> were bands of armed >> >> >> terrorists holed up inside the three >> religious >> >> places. Some might choose >> >> > to >> >> >> call them 'freedom fighters' or >> >> "Mujahideen". >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Kshmendra >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> --- On Sat, 7/5/08, S. Jabbar >> >> wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> From: S. Jabbar >> >> >> >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle >> near >> >> Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among >> >> > 14 >> >> >> injured >> >> >>> To: "Shivam Vij शिवम् >> >> विज् " >> >> >> , "sarai >> list" >> >> >> >> >> >>> Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 1:07 PM >> >> >>> >> >> >>> I think you may want to ask why it >> was >> >> necessary to begin a victory >> >> > rally >> >> >>> from a religious place and how any of >> us would >> >> have reacted if Advani >> >> > were >> >> >>> to embark on another >> 'victory' rally >> >> from Somnath or Ayodhya. >> >> >> These >> >> >>> so-called victory rallies will only >> add fuel >> >> to the Jammu-Kashmir/ >> >> >>> Hindu-Muslim conflagration. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Hazrat Bal and the Jama Masjid are >> not neutral >> >> sites and have been >> >> >>> politically charged ever since the >> 1930s when >> >> the Quit Kashmir >> >> > movement >> >> >> was >> >> >>> launched against the Maharaja. What >> must have >> >> started off as an >> >> > equally >> >> >>> 'peaceful' gathering turned >> violent >> >> and a man was killed. >> >> > That >> >> >> was >> >> >>> reason >> >> >>> enough for mass rioting. You may be >> aware of >> >> the siege of Hazrat Bal >> >> > in >> >> >> the >> >> >>> early '90s or for that matter the >> siege of >> >> Charar e-Sharif in >> >> > '95 >> >> >> or >> >> >>> for >> >> >>> that matter the Golden Temple in the >> '80s. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> The Hurriyat is not unaware that the >> state >> >> cannot risk a religious >> >> > site >> >> >>> becoming another site of >> contestation. It >> >> would try and control what >> >> > in >> >> >> all >> >> >>> likelihood would turn into yet >> another >> >> communally charged and violent >> >> >> event. >> >> >>> And yet it decided to go ahead. The >> stakes >> >> are high and I really >> >> >> don't >> >> >>> think anyone is above using religion >> to >> >> further their political ends. >> >> >>> --sj >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On 7/5/08 12:43 PM, "Shivam Vij >> >> शिवम् >> >> > विज्" >> >> >>> wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> This is what happens when you >> prevent >> >> people from addressing >> >> >>>> peaceful >> >> >>> gatherings... >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> o o o o >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah >> among >> >> >>>> 14 injured >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Special Correspondent, 5 July >> >> >>>> 2008 >> >> >>> >> >> >> http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/05/stories/2008070559931300.htm >> >> >>> >> >> >>> The clash >> >> >>>> followed prayers to celebrate the >> >> "victory" in the land >> >> >> transfer >> >> >>>> issue >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> SRINAGAR: Senior Hurriyat Conference >> leader >> >> Shabir Shah was among >> >> >>>> 14 >> >> >>> people injured on Friday, following a >> scuffle >> >> between police and >> >> >>> supporters >> >> >>>> of separatist leaders after they >> offered >> >> prayers at the >> >> >>> Hazratbal shrine to >> >> >>>> celebrate the recent >> "victory" >> >> in the land >> >> >>> transfer issue. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> The call for >> >> >>>> "Hazratbal Chalo" was >> given by >> >> Syed Ali Geelani, head of >> >> >>> a faction of the >> >> >>>> Hurriyat Conference and supported >> by >> >> Mirwaiz Umar >> >> >>> Farooq, head of another. >> >> >>>> However, both were placed under >> house >> >> arrest >> >> >>> by the police. Mr. Shah and other >> >> >>>> leaders, however, reached >> Hazratbal >> >> >>> amid heavy deployment of police and >> >> >>>> paramilitary CRPF and offered >> >> >>> prayers besides addressing the >> people. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Mr. Shah >> >> >>>> and Ashraf Sehrai, another senior >> leader >> >> denounced the >> >> >>> government for putting >> >> >>>> Mr. Geelani and Mr. Mirwaiz under >> house >> >> arrest. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> A protester hurls back a tear >> >> >>>> smoke shell towards the police. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On their way back, Mr. Shabir Shah, >> Mr. >> >> >>>> Sehrai, Naeem Khan, Sheikh >> >> >>> Aziz, Shafi Reshi, Firdous Shah and >> others led >> >> a >> >> >>>> strong procession, >> >> >>> which was lathi-charged. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Fourteen people, including Mr. >> >> >>>> Shabir Shah, were injured. He was >> >> >>> shifted to the S.K. Institute of >> Medical >> >> >>>> Sciences (SKIMS) for >> >> >>> treatment. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Even as rumours spread that he was >> critical, >> >> >>>> Director SKIMS Abdul >> >> >>> Hamid Zargar told The Hindu that he >> was >> >> stable. Another >> >> >>>> procession >> >> >>> taken from Jamia Masjid and led by >> the head >> >> imam, was dispersed >> >> >>>> by >> >> >>> police with smoke shells. Many people >> were >> >> arrested. Another >> >> >>>> Hurriyat >> >> >>> leader Javed Mir was arrested when he >> tried to >> >> take out a >> >> >>>> procession >> >> >>> towards Hazratbal in Khanyar >> >> >>>> area. >> >> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >>> reader-list: an open >> >> >>>> discussion list on media and the >> city. >> >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >>> To >> >> >>>> subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >> subscribe >> >> >>> in >> >> >>>> the subject header. >> >> >>> To unsubscribe: >> >> >>>> >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >>> List archive: >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list >> on media >> >> and the city. >> >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >> subscribe in >> >> >>> the subject header. >> >> >>> To unsubscribe: >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >>> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list >> on media >> >> and the city. >> >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >>> To unsubscribe: >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >>> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on >> media and >> >> the city. >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in >> >> >> the subject header. >> >> >> To unsubscribe: >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on >> media and >> >> the city. >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >> To unsubscribe: >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > >> >> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media >> and the >> >> city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> >> > the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media >> and the >> >> city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the subject >> >> header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and >> the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the subject >> >> header. >> >> To unsubscribe: >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject >> header. >> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> > > > > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 19:19:31 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 19:19:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured In-Reply-To: <36514.58148.qm@web53607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <47e122a70807081054m76c20733l7c1e6c4540240a14@mail.gmail.com> <36514.58148.qm@web53607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70807090649m432324aaxcf6424d0e41466ef@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rahul thanks for the curiosity to know, unfortunately there is no readymade answer, ... since we have part of ready-made called WORLD so, i beleive, threre is really no one to lead us, we have to emanicipate ourselves, that is ancient WISDOM as well. i like the word 'disseminate' by Derrida. but i want to escape the academics of it, Derrida wants much more than that.... he thinks that real deconstruction of word may ultimately lapse into performatics in a given time and space, without any repeat.... we have to perform our life...i am not willing to perform as a teacher ( even right now ) because there is none in the first place, i guess solutions to problems are around, once we become arrive at some clarity point by point.... i guess, if one is ready to feel creaitivity in any field, solutions will come to us themselves. if kashmiris really want freedom they will become creative, by creativity, i dont mean that they should start to paint tomorrow, or becomes poets , creativity in anthropological sense, wherein everybody feels she or he is an artists ( i repeat Joseph Bouys )but there are distractions, an endless chain of interests, which keeps us at bay,,, that we never achieved freedom in 1947, but may be a flag, which even nationlists dont exhibit in their bed rooms or drawing rooms,... they like to surround themselves with Gods and godesses when some impotency marches in ... But events , in histroy, are so overwhelming that we are too handicapped to see what to happing to us even when we are celebrating , an event which deserves our intimacy.... we are perhaps, too complete in our minds to realise the incompleteness of our beings, that is why we become hysterical at times... and that is why become curious to know, that is why we yearn to fall in love, because we want to weep even, we dont really know what we want.... we may keep on asking, the other and the self at the same time... we are bound to collapse in the process, but that may be perhaps the essense of being alive, ALIVE ( dont listen the word, for a fraction of second ) and then ... i am myself learing this way, or that way,,, with love is On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 7:15 AM, Rahul Asthana wrote: > Dear Inder, > I am also "indifferent to nationalism".With that out of the way,what do you propose we should campaign for,support,preach,do etc with respect to your pan national vision in general and Kashmir in particular?How can we bring your dream to fruition in Kashmir?In what way can we help Kashmiris and Kashmir and make a difference there? > > P.S.1 You don't have to answer this question if this cause is not important to you.Or maybe just answer it as an academic exercise. > 2.Continuing to dream and write poetry and sing songs is also a valid answer,I will accept it. > > > Thanks > Rahul > > > --- On Tue, 7/8/08, inder salim wrote: > >> From: inder salim >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 11:24 PM >> Dear Rahul >> have u ever wondered why there is a song called ' >> imagine there is no country ' >> and if it is just a song and everything else is rock solid, >> then i >> feel there is not even iron in the soul, >> it is barren, and our head pieces is filled with staw.... >> >> now what is soul? whenever i go to Socretes as a >> teacher i feel >> the urge to question 'the state' endlessly ... >> similarly when i read >> myth , i see a good a king in the form of Raja Harish >> Chander who >> abandoned his throne for a word..... and again who is great >> prince? I >> think of Buddha.... i think if one fills ones soul with >> such a teacher >> and such a king and prince then that 'iron' might >> keep on coming and >> going...dissolving with the fresh water of a country called >> no-man's >> land >> >> I think of Manto's Toba Tek Singh, in that there is a >> mad character, >> who has no place under the sun upon which is goverened by >> laws and >> systems.... but that his death between the boarders of two >> countries >> smashed nationalism in one go... i like the tools which rip >> a word, a >> system, a status quo...may be i am also mad.... >> >> but there is some method in this madness....and there are >> many >> practiontioners of this madness in our world.. these mad >> people have >> worked passionetly for the understnding of human being..... >> they need >> space to be.... >> >> further, when i say nationalism, i say NAY-TIONALISM... >> this can be >> the mantra....the mantra which restores the existential >> dignity of a >> human being.... >> >> France and Englad fought like mad dogs but today there is a >> single >> currency in europe... why can we dream something similar in >> Aisa, >> >> i think Gandhi ji would be delighted to see that currency >> without his >> toothless image on it.... >> >> you said that i dislike nationalsim, i dont, i am >> indifferent to nationalism.... >> and when people who listens similar music too share halva >> puri or >> nihiri/paya they really share love, >> >> but you know how we oppose our women to marry with men of >> other religion... >> is that STATE you admire....which is busy playing vote bank >> politics >> in the name of democracy... >> >> now, i dont know what is the priorirty of issues in your >> opinion..... >> i think women's issues is as important as environmental >> issues, which >> is as important as ethics and morals which is as important >> as respect >> for the common man.... >> >> and above all, there is something called PAST which >> surpasses our >> written word...surpasses our written history...it is aobut >> that >> memory which is in the form of TIME embedded within us... >> our >> collective memory >> >> it is not about a slogan, saray jahan say >> achha...unfortunately when >> we sing it we sing 'the meaning', but not the >> poem... >> State officers and corrupt ministers of a country... >> >> i dont think i have been able to answer your question.. >> because you >> feel majority is with you...i am minority within the >> minority within >> the minority... >> >> so love >> is >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 8:25 PM, Rahul Asthana >> wrote: >> > Hi Inder, >> > Your position of "not believing in >> nationalism" is typical of many on this list.I am not >> arguing for nationalism against anarchy. I do not think >> there is anything noble in being a nationalist >> \patriot. But I do realize the utilitarian value of the >> concept of nation.Anyhow, lets for a while assume that your >> idea of "not believing in the nationalism" is the >> way to go. >> > What do you suppose we should do now? Organize an >> Indo-Pak concert where someone will sing "Imagine >> there's no country" or perhaps Sayonee by Junoon >> and then everyone will start hugging,kissing and dancing >> kumbaya with each other, halwa poori or nihari\paya >> will be distributed and all will go home and live happily >> ever after. Is that likely to happen? >> > A while back,when I was making the argument that >> sovereign Kashmir is not a feasible state(for reasons that >> I had given earlier),the arguments I got in response was >> that I was not romantic enough,I had a diseased mind, >> Kashmir is too beautiful to stay occupied etc etc.. Then >> there was the usual "I dont believe in >> nationalism". >> > Your dislike of nationalism may be the principle >> around which you frame your argument but THAT STATEMENT, BY >> ITSELF CAN NOT BE YOUR ARGUMENT.If you can build any >> realistic and pragmatic course of action around that >> principle then you should forward it.Just chanting this >> mantra of "not believing in nationalism",is >> neither here nor there and would make you irrelevant.Till >> the time that nation states are a reality you cant just >> ignore them or wish them away. >> > >> > Regards >> > Rahul >> > >> > --- On Tue, 7/8/08, inder salim >> wrote: >> > >> >> From: inder salim >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; >> Shabir Shah among 14 injured >> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> >> Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:39 AM >> >> dear kshmendra >> >> >> >> for now, all i want to say is that i am not for >> any kind of >> >> nationalism.... i dont know what that will lead >> to, i think >> >> it will be >> >> perhpas better for humanity, if nation states >> disappear >> >> suddenly and >> >> enable people to move freely on this planet >> earth.... >> >> >> >> i have a dream, you may say it is utopian... so >> what. >> >> >> >> desire for nation is not bad, i have huge >> admiration for >> >> people like >> >> Bhagat Singh, but the the powers sturctures that >> cling on >> >> the that >> >> state in the name of democracy or people is >> fradulent. Now >> >> dont tell >> >> me that we helpless to not-to-see-the-other >> >> >> >> it is interesting to notice how people's >> simple faith >> >> gets translated >> >> into something necessary costly rituals... say >> prem >> >> chand's Govdaan, >> >> .. . i see misery for the innocent lot, and for >> that i have >> >> every >> >> right to undermine, a state, a religion or an >> >> identiy....and once it >> >> becomes a system that gnaws the dignity >> existential core >> >> of human >> >> being,..... i want to restore that >> >> >> >> one is free to remain glued to something as long >> as it >> >> keeps on >> >> milking other's cow. that is why i talked >> about morals >> >> and ethics. >> >> >> >> now see, there is a great democracy in america and >> england >> >> but when i >> >> comes to their foreign affairs they looks >> barbarians.... >> >> and i dont know how to admire their democratic >> systems >> >> endlessly if >> >> there is no change.... right now, everyting is >> stuck, >> >> >> >> just see, what their democracies did to afganistan >> and >> >> iraq. i have >> >> more respect for a poor afgani who >> >> has no choice but to shoot alongwith a taliban >> commander >> >> and work in >> >> poppy fields in comparison to some one who is >> drinking beer >> >> in new >> >> york while criticizing muslim fundamentalism.... >> >> >> >> in that sense, i have nothing against politics, >> but against >> >> the >> >> polticians who are at the helm of affairs.....as >> jean paul >> >> sartre says >> >> that politics enters through all the pores of your >> >> body,....and >> >> realization of that sensitizes me, realization of >> that >> >> reduces my >> >> arrogance, and i think that is how i want to >> understand >> >> politics, >> >> >> >> and that way i know what is the meaning of GAME in >> >> politics.... now you that.... >> >> >> >> now religion, i believe, >> >> the state has no business to enter the affairs of >> the >> >> shrine.... why >> >> on earth state should provide facilites to a >> piligrim... >> >> a true piligrim has to be really prepared , both >> physically >> >> and mentally.... >> >> and above all, SHIVA i believe is about death >> also... you >> >> might be >> >> knowing, there is a mountain , just one stop >> before the >> >> amarnath cave >> >> which is called Bhairav Baal, and it was famous >> for real >> >> piligirms to >> >> climb it and jump on the other side of it....a >> true love of >> >> shiva will >> >> be quite educated and brave and should understand >> the >> >> significance of >> >> death and sprituality in one go... >> >> >> >> i still dont understand how a shiva lover can >> throw stones >> >> at others, >> >> or burn a tyre, if one goes by the kashmiri >> philisophy of >> >> shivaism >> >> well you are within your rights to call it >> politics, but i >> >> see decadence in it >> >> >> >> at the best it is opportunism, and once it is so, >> it is >> >> free for all, >> >> >> >> once we realize the absence of morals and ethics >> in our >> >> political >> >> acitivity, we are at the mercy of goons and the >> politicians >> >> who love >> >> to make a fool of each one of us. >> >> >> >> about disrespect, just show me one communtiy, at >> grass root >> >> level, in >> >> the world history which not suffered humiliation >> at the >> >> hands of their >> >> rulers. >> >> that is why i am not interested in those who >> eulogise kings >> >> and queens >> >> for this or that.... people have suffered, even >> when a >> >> great king was >> >> constructing a Taj mahal or making a great wall in >> china, >> >> same goes >> >> for the construction of great temples and >> mosques.......i >> >> see pain of >> >> a human being in the form of an monument, beauty >> of it >> >> comes next.... >> >> >> >> that way i see the possibity of a shift in >> histroy, that >> >> way we can >> >> see the emergence of a new politics, a new way of >> living, >> >> beyond >> >> mindsets and old designs , old territories.... >> >> >> >> my dear, that muse on the classical canvas died >> long >> >> ago.... we are >> >> finished with waste land even, we have come to a >> stage when >> >> even >> >> writing a poem is impossiblity.... >> >> >> >> politics is dead in that sense...the issue is >> ethics, >> >> environment, and >> >> my favourite word 'love' is kicking >> alive, >> >> >> >> with love and regards >> >> is >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >> >> wrote: >> >> > Dear Inder Salim >> >> > >> >> > You say "i know you know well what i am >> talking >> >> about...." >> >> > >> >> > No Sir I do not. Either we are talking about >> different >> >> things or it must be the limitations of my >> understanding. >> >> > >> >> > It must also be the limitations of my being >> able to >> >> express myself that you read meanings other than >> what I >> >> think I have placed in my words. >> >> > >> >> > - I ddear o not know what "GAMES" >> you are >> >> talking about. If you explain them in simple >> words, I might >> >> be able to comment >> >> > >> >> > - I spoke about "respect" for >> >> "constancy" in "political >> positions". >> >> That could or could not translate into >> "respect" >> >> for the person. That also does not preclude the >> ones being >> >> talked about being political adversaries or being >> enemies >> >> of my country >> >> > >> >> > - Let me give another example. I see China >> as being >> >> (if not an enemy these days) inimical towards >> India on many >> >> fronts. Yet I have immense respect for China in >> many >> >> spheres. >> >> > >> >> > - Let me give another example. I see Pakistan >> as >> >> continuing to be an enemy of India. I have no >> respect for >> >> (I have contempt for) Pakistan's shifts over >> Kashmir >> >> especially in the context of it's duplicity >> with the >> >> "Hurriyat Pasand". Yet there are things >> about and >> >> from Pakistan I love. I love their Muslin and >> Men's >> >> Shalvaar Kameez, I love Mehdi Hassan and Nayyara >> Noor and >> >> Sabri Brothers, I love Faiz and Parveen Shakir and >> Amjad >> >> Islam Amjad >> >> > >> >> > - Saw your list of those you respect. I have >> no >> >> argument with you over that list. >> >> > >> >> > - You do not respect 'politicians'. >> For me >> >> that is too generalised a statement. Maybe I would >> not >> >> respect "some" or even "most" >> >> politicians" but the political system is >> essential (in >> >> my opinion) to any organised society. Irrespective >> of the >> >> form of Government or quality of Governance, every >> country >> >> has a political system. It has to have one. If >> there >> >> isn't one, there will be anarchy. In the case >> of a >> >> "democracy", the politician is of >> critical >> >> importance to the citizen. The Constitution allows >> Laws, >> >> Laws take shape from Legislation, Legislation is >> enacted by >> >> Legislators, Legislators are Politicians. Every >> aspect of >> >> the quality of life in India (for example) is >> directly or >> >> indirectly affected on and effected by the >> Politicians. You >> >> may be dismissive of Politicians if you want to >> be. For me >> >> Politicians are extremely important entities to be >> >> evaluated and sieved in one's judgement. >> >> > >> >> > - I am a firm believer that my final societal >> identity >> >> is the Passport I hold or am eligible for. All >> Inter- Nation >> >> interactions including those of their citizens are >> >> conditional to the Laws of each country. Yes I am >> a firm >> >> believer in 'nationalism'. I subscribe to >> Indian >> >> Nationalism. You perhaps are more tuned (correct >> if I have >> >> misheard the strains) into Kashmiri Nationalism. >> Only the >> >> forces of Nature respect no National Boundaries. >> All other >> >> aspects of our lives are linked to the country we >> belong to >> >> (because the Laws of the country govern every >> other aspect >> >> of our lives). Actually the Laws of a Country can >> even >> >> interfere with the reign of Nature, which is when >> >> Environmental Concerns take centre-stage. >> >> > >> >> > - Is the "Kashmir issue" about >> "Ethics >> >> & Morals"? Perhaps it is to some degree >> in some >> >> areas. I see it more as being about "Rights >> and >> >> Responsibilities" and even more so as being >> >> "Political" and about >> "Religion" >> >> > >> >> > - You speak about the Kashmiri >> "Muslims" >> >> having been disrespected. I do not understand >> that >> >> judgement. Perhaps you might elaborate on how the >> >> "Muslims" of Kashmir have been >> >> "disrespected". >> >> > >> >> > - You speak about the SASB affair having >> >> "undermined the sensitivity of .... >> Muslims". >> >> Again I do not understand how SASB affair is >> linked with >> >> "Kashmiri Muslims". Unless of course you >> yourself >> >> subscribe to the view that the SASB affair was one >> of >> >> Muslims against Hindus. >> >> > >> >> > (By your pointed reference to >> "Muslims" you >> >> seem to be in agreement with me that the >> "Kashmir >> >> Issue" is about "Religion") >> >> > >> >> > - You speak about " 1990 disrespect to >> kashmiri >> >> pandits" being about "ethics and >> morals". >> >> Perhaps it is to some extent. I see it more as a >> Political >> >> affair. I see it more as failure of governance >> (both at the >> >> Centre and State) in having allowed a "fear >> >> atmosphere" to develop. >> >> > >> >> > At least in this mail I see the point that >> you are >> >> trying to make. Correct me if I understood >> wrongly. You >> >> state that you "know" what you should >> >> "respect" and seem to suggest I do not >> >> "know". Fair enough. You are entitled to >> your >> >> judgement. >> >> > >> >> > Kshmendra >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > --- On Mon, 7/7/08, inder salim >> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > From: inder salim >> >> >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near >> Hazratbal; >> >> Shabir Shah among 14 injured >> >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net >> >> > Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 7:00 PM >> >> > >> >> > Dear kshmendra >> >> > >> >> > i quote myself >> >> > >> >> > and once we are finished with these games.... >> only >> >> then we can begin >> >> > to talk about ETHICS and MORALS >> >> > >> >> > it is again your choice to ignore the most >> important >> >> line of my last >> >> > post... i dont feel insecure .... >> >> > >> >> > i know you know well what i am talking >> about.... >> >> > >> >> > now see, you take a position with regard to >> >> 'Respect', >> >> > you respect, i dont know whethere with >> capital R or >> >> with small r, but >> >> > u respect the politicians who are against the >> >> occupation of indian >> >> > foreces in kashmir.but strangely in the next >> line you >> >> think that they >> >> > are enemies of the indian state and you are >> Indian, >> >> right . >> >> > i >> >> > on the contrary i dont respect a politican, >> ....... i >> >> have respect for >> >> > a poet, a musician, an ariist, a social >> worker a >> >> simple worker, a job >> >> > less man frustrated by the indiferent state. >> i respect >> >> a poor man on >> >> > the road side, i respect a tribalman who is >> contantly >> >> being driven >> >> > out of his ecology , >> >> > >> >> > i respect millions of landless people in >> india.... i >> >> have respect for >> >> > the womens rights, i repect you has a human >> being and >> >> in that sense i >> >> > respect a politician even. >> >> > >> >> > yes, i respect the morals and ethics, more >> than being >> >> a nationalist >> >> > merely as an identity tag....i respect >> rebels...... i >> >> respect my >> >> > teacher AK Mir who publically slapped Mufti >> Mohd Syed >> >> in Bijbehara >> >> > because he as a Congress pradesh president >> >> masterminded 1986 communal >> >> > riots.... i respect a petty theif who threw >> shit on >> >> the judge in delhi >> >> > because he was languishing in the jail and >> could not >> >> afford to bail >> >> > himself out. >> >> > >> >> > i have respect for the courage.... and >> similarly i >> >> have respect for >> >> > those who uphold their existential beings >> wheenver the >> >> state or the >> >> > power structures openly supress and >> disrespects the >> >> ethics and morals >> >> > of the other.... >> >> > >> >> > that is why kashmir issue is about ethics and >> morals >> >> as well..... >> >> > >> >> > that is why the land transter to shrine board >> >> undermined the >> >> > sensitivity of the already disrespected >> kashmiri >> >> muslims... >> >> > >> >> > that is why 1990 disrespect to kashmiri >> pandits is >> >> also about ethics >> >> > and morals as well.. >> >> > >> >> > i see human being through this prism of >> ethics and >> >> morals ... i mix >> >> > love with it and see some possiblity to heal >> the self >> >> and the other at >> >> > the same time..i may fail in the end because >> plolitics >> >> is exercised >> >> > quite ruthlessly in india and abroad.... but >> i dont >> >> regret about my >> >> > position. >> >> > >> >> > at least i know what i should respect >> >> > >> >> > with love >> >> > inder salim >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Kshmendra >> Kaul >> >> >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> Dear Inder Salim >> >> >> >> >> >> I wish I had understood what point you >> were trying >> >> to make. >> >> >> >> >> >> What I did notice is your quoting me >> partially and >> >> out of context and then >> >> > using that to put a spin on my words so that >> you could >> >> indulge in innuendos and >> >> > make judgements about me. >> >> >> >> >> >> I was talking of having respect for the >> >> 'constant political >> >> > position' of people whoever it may be. >> Geelani was >> >> an example for the sake >> >> > of comparing with (what I see as) >> hypocritical >> >> declamations of the >> >> > "moderate" Hurriyatis (especially >> Umar >> >> Farooq) and their claims of >> >> > their brand of the "Hurriyat" call >> being a >> >> 'secular' one. It >> >> > is called 'munaafaqat'. >> >> >> >> >> >> Just to explain it further, I similarly >> have >> >> respect for the 'constant >> >> > political position' of Yasin Malik in >> that he >> >> wants (or used to want) the >> >> > erstwhile princely State of Jammu & >> Kashmir to be >> >> an Independent Country >> >> > with it's territories freed from both >> Indian and >> >> Pakistani control. Again I >> >> > say this at the risk of being lynched by my >> KP >> >> brethren. Yasin, in proclaiming >> >> > his having eschewed violence was foolish >> enough to >> >> admit that he (and/or JKLF) >> >> > had previous to that indulged in >> 'killings' >> >> >> >> >> >> I disagree with both positions, of >> Geelani and >> >> Yasin, but that does not >> >> > stop me from acknowledging their constancy. >> >> >> >> >> >> Inder you talk about my >> 'positions' but >> >> you obviously have no idea >> >> > of what they are. You only presume. >> >> >> >> >> >> Anyone who seeks to disturb the peace in >> my >> >> country India is for me an >> >> > enemy of the nation. Anyone who seeks to >> break-up >> >> India or bring in violent >> >> > divides between it's people is for me an >> enemy of >> >> India. They should be >> >> > recognised as, dealt with and treated as >> enemies. >> >> Before your make another >> >> > presumption, the 'recognising', >> 'dealing >> >> with' and >> >> > 'treating' as enemies neither >> automatically >> >> means nor is suggested by >> >> > me should be done by repressive means or >> incarceration >> >> or State Violence. >> >> >> >> >> >> The affiliations of these >> 'enemies' are of >> >> no importance. They >> >> > could be from Hurriyat Conference, or JKLF or >> RSS or >> >> VHP or Bajrang Dal or SIMI >> >> > or any other organisation. >> >> >> >> >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- On Sun, 7/6/08, inder salim >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> From: inder salim >> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near >> Hazratbal; >> >> Shabir Shah among 14 >> >> > injured >> >> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> >> >> Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 11:39 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> Dear Kshmendra >> >> >> >> >> >> I quote you, "but I have much more >> respect >> >> for the constant political >> >> >> position of someone like Hurriyati >> hardliner Syed >> >> Ali Shah Geelani" >> >> >> >> >> >> just read your statment again and >> remember when >> >> Syed Ali Shah Geelani >> >> >> too said similar about RSS. He really >> dislkes >> >> anything secular >> >> >> because a religous stand is logical for >> both >> >> Geelani sahib and for >> >> >> RSS. anything else is ambigous >> >> >> >> >> >> now i quote you again, "It has >> amused me >> >> more to see how easily the >> >> >> likes of Umar Farooq, Prof Abdul Ghani >> Bhat, >> >> Shabbir Shah (and other >> >> >> Hurriyat 'moderates') are able to >> fool >> >> people into buying their >> >> >> 'secular' credentials" >> >> >> >> >> >> just remember when Atal Behari Vajpayee >> wrote a >> >> poem about the sad >> >> >> demolition of Babri Mosque...The words >> moistened >> >> the eyes of the >> >> >> naive, but we knew how crocodile weeps... >> you also >> >> know it well >> >> >> >> >> >> now i know there are positions, well you >> are >> >> within your rights to >> >> >> hold one ... that is ok >> >> >> >> >> >> i just met a kashmiri pandit who was >> demonstrating >> >> at jantar mantar >> >> >> today.... and i sarcastically >> congratulated about >> >> the news KASHSMIR >> >> >> PANDITOON NAY TODFOD KI, ( riots by >> kashmir >> >> pandits ) It is perhaps >> >> >> for the first time i heard about such a >> news. He >> >> understood and >> >> >> replied quickly... " if we dont >> resort to >> >> thes acts who will listen >> >> > to >> >> >> us, we are politically irrlevant in the >> present >> >> political >> >> >> situation.... we need to read these >> situations >> >> quickly, and we do it >> >> >> from time to time. " >> >> >> >> >> >> now see how their brother is the valley >> do the >> >> same things for their >> >> >> own survial. for example PDP, who need >> to >> >> something from time to time >> >> >> to stay in relevant in the volatite >> politcal games >> >> being played in the >> >> >> valley..... what is so wrong about it if >> >> everything else is not. >> >> >> >> >> >> and once we are finished with these >> games.... only >> >> then we can being >> >> >> to talk about ETHICS and MORALS >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> till then best >> >> >> >> >> >> inder salim >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 12:27 AM, >> Kshmendra Kaul >> >> > >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >>> Dear Sonia >> >> >>> >> >> >>> There is nothing surprising in the >> religious >> >> place Hazrartbal being >> >> > the >> >> >> start-point for the 'victory' >> rally. It >> >> only reinforces the >> >> > evaluation >> >> >> that the 'victory' was sought by >> one >> >> religion over the other. For >> >> > those >> >> >> who achieved the 'victory', what >> better >> >> place to start the >> >> > celebration >> >> >> than a Shrine/Mosque. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Our 'secular' commentators >> may spout >> >> various theories and >> >> > analyses >> >> >> but those who were a part of that >> >> 'victory' were obviously honest >> >> > about >> >> >> what they had achieved and in the name of >> which >> >> religion. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Whether it has been the 1931 >> 'bread >> >> movement' or the intense >> >> >> rivalry between the 'sher' (of >> Sheikh >> >> Abdullah) and >> >> > 'bakra' (of >> >> >> Maulvi Farooq) or the Hurriyat >> >> (freedom/separatist) movement, the pulpits >> >> > of >> >> >> both Hazratbal and Jama Masjid have been >> used as >> >> much for political >> >> >> speeches/sloganeering and calls for >> separatism as >> >> they have been for >> >> > religious >> >> >> sermons. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> It has always amused me to see Umar >> Farooq (as >> >> just one example among >> >> >> others) indulge in such political >> >> speeches/sloganeering from Jama Masjid, >> >> > or >> >> >> visit and seek support from his Political >> Mecca of >> >> OIC (and/or Pakistan) >> >> > and >> >> >> yet at the same time hypocritically claim >> that the >> >> "Hurriyat" >> >> >> movement is a secular one. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> It has amused me more to see how >> easily the >> >> likes of Umar Farooq, Prof >> >> >> Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other >> Hurriyat >> >> 'moderates') >> >> > are >> >> >> able to fool people into buying their >> >> 'secular' credentials. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> My Kashmiri Pandit brethren might >> lynch me for >> >> saying this, but I have >> >> >> much more respect for the constant >> political >> >> position of someone like >> >> > Hurriyati >> >> >> hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani (even if >> I >> >> disagree with his arguments) >> >> > who is >> >> >> firm in his belief that J&K as Muslim >> Majority >> >> 'territory' >> >> > should >> >> >> be a part of Pakistan. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> I am sure you did not mean to equate >> the >> >> situations but I found it >> >> > strange >> >> >> that you mentioned in the same breath the >> >> "peaceful... victory >> >> > rally" >> >> >> starting from Hazratbal with "siege >> of Hazrat >> >> Bal in the early >> >> > '90s or >> >> >> for that matter the siege of Charar >> e-Sharif in >> >> '95 or >> >> >>> for that matter the Golden Temple in >> the >> >> '80s". >> >> >>> >> >> >>> In all three 'siege' >> mentioned, there >> >> were bands of armed >> >> >> terrorists holed up inside the three >> religious >> >> places. Some might choose >> >> > to >> >> >> call them 'freedom fighters' or >> >> "Mujahideen". >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Kshmendra >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> --- On Sat, 7/5/08, S. Jabbar >> >> wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> From: S. Jabbar >> >> >> >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle >> near >> >> Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among >> >> > 14 >> >> >> injured >> >> >>> To: "Shivam Vij शिवम् >> >> विज् " >> >> >> , "sarai >> list" >> >> >> >> >> >>> Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 1:07 PM >> >> >>> >> >> >>> I think you may want to ask why it >> was >> >> necessary to begin a victory >> >> > rally >> >> >>> from a religious place and how any of >> us would >> >> have reacted if Advani >> >> > were >> >> >>> to embark on another >> 'victory' rally >> >> from Somnath or Ayodhya. >> >> >> These >> >> >>> so-called victory rallies will only >> add fuel >> >> to the Jammu-Kashmir/ >> >> >>> Hindu-Muslim conflagration. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Hazrat Bal and the Jama Masjid are >> not neutral >> >> sites and have been >> >> >>> politically charged ever since the >> 1930s when >> >> the Quit Kashmir >> >> > movement >> >> >> was >> >> >>> launched against the Maharaja. What >> must have >> >> started off as an >> >> > equally >> >> >>> 'peaceful' gathering turned >> violent >> >> and a man was killed. >> >> > That >> >> >> was >> >> >>> reason >> >> >>> enough for mass rioting. You may be >> aware of >> >> the siege of Hazrat Bal >> >> > in >> >> >> the >> >> >>> early '90s or for that matter the >> siege of >> >> Charar e-Sharif in >> >> > '95 >> >> >> or >> >> >>> for >> >> >>> that matter the Golden Temple in the >> '80s. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> The Hurriyat is not unaware that the >> state >> >> cannot risk a religious >> >> > site >> >> >>> becoming another site of >> contestation. It >> >> would try and control what >> >> > in >> >> >> all >> >> >>> likelihood would turn into yet >> another >> >> communally charged and violent >> >> >> event. >> >> >>> And yet it decided to go ahead. The >> stakes >> >> are high and I really >> >> >> don't >> >> >>> think anyone is above using religion >> to >> >> further their political ends. >> >> >>> --sj >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On 7/5/08 12:43 PM, "Shivam Vij >> >> शिवम् >> >> > विज्" >> >> >>> wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> This is what happens when you >> prevent >> >> people from addressing >> >> >>>> peaceful >> >> >>> gatherings... >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> o o o o >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah >> among >> >> >>>> 14 injured >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Special Correspondent, 5 July >> >> >>>> 2008 >> >> >>> >> >> >> http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/05/stories/2008070559931300.htm >> >> >>> >> >> >>> The clash >> >> >>>> followed prayers to celebrate the >> >> "victory" in the land >> >> >> transfer >> >> >>>> issue >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> SRINAGAR: Senior Hurriyat Conference >> leader >> >> Shabir Shah was among >> >> >>>> 14 >> >> >>> people injured on Friday, following a >> scuffle >> >> between police and >> >> >>> supporters >> >> >>>> of separatist leaders after they >> offered >> >> prayers at the >> >> >>> Hazratbal shrine to >> >> >>>> celebrate the recent >> "victory" >> >> in the land >> >> >>> transfer issue. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> The call for >> >> >>>> "Hazratbal Chalo" was >> given by >> >> Syed Ali Geelani, head of >> >> >>> a faction of the >> >> >>>> Hurriyat Conference and supported >> by >> >> Mirwaiz Umar >> >> >>> Farooq, head of another. >> >> >>>> However, both were placed under >> house >> >> arrest >> >> >>> by the police. Mr. Shah and other >> >> >>>> leaders, however, reached >> Hazratbal >> >> >>> amid heavy deployment of police and >> >> >>>> paramilitary CRPF and offered >> >> >>> prayers besides addressing the >> people. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Mr. Shah >> >> >>>> and Ashraf Sehrai, another senior >> leader >> >> denounced the >> >> >>> government for putting >> >> >>>> Mr. Geelani and Mr. Mirwaiz under >> house >> >> arrest. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> A protester hurls back a tear >> >> >>>> smoke shell towards the police. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On their way back, Mr. Shabir Shah, >> Mr. >> >> >>>> Sehrai, Naeem Khan, Sheikh >> >> >>> Aziz, Shafi Reshi, Firdous Shah and >> others led >> >> a >> >> >>>> strong procession, >> >> >>> which was lathi-charged. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Fourteen people, including Mr. >> >> >>>> Shabir Shah, were injured. He was >> >> >>> shifted to the S.K. Institute of >> Medical >> >> >>>> Sciences (SKIMS) for >> >> >>> treatment. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Even as rumours spread that he was >> critical, >> >> >>>> Director SKIMS Abdul >> >> >>> Hamid Zargar told The Hindu that he >> was >> >> stable. Another >> >> >>>> procession >> >> >>> taken from Jamia Masjid and led by >> the head >> >> imam, was dispersed >> >> >>>> by >> >> >>> police with smoke shells. Many people >> were >> >> arrested. Another >> >> >>>> Hurriyat >> >> >>> leader Javed Mir was arrested when he >> tried to >> >> take out a >> >> >>>> procession >> >> >>> towards Hazratbal in Khanyar >> >> >>>> area. >> >> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >>> reader-list: an open >> >> >>>> discussion list on media and the >> city. >> >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >>> To >> >> >>>> subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >> subscribe >> >> >>> in >> >> >>>> the subject header. >> >> >>> To unsubscribe: >> >> >>>> >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >>> List archive: >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list >> on media >> >> and the city. >> >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >> subscribe in >> >> >>> the subject header. >> >> >>> To unsubscribe: >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >>> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list >> on media >> >> and the city. >> >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >>> To unsubscribe: >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >>> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on >> media and >> >> the city. >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in >> >> >> the subject header. >> >> >> To unsubscribe: >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on >> media and >> >> the city. >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >> To unsubscribe: >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > >> >> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media >> and the >> >> city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> >> > the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media >> and the >> >> city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the subject >> >> header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and >> the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the subject >> >> header. >> >> To unsubscribe: >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject >> header. >> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> > > > > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Wed Jul 9 20:00:43 2008 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 20:00:43 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? Message-ID: <187818.64334.qm@web8410.mail.in.yahoo.com> Please see the report/appeal below, about another effort to stop the Gujarat CM Narendra Modi from entering the US. While withholding all my angst against what he allowed to happen in Gujarat in 2002 and the fact that he shamelessly continues to be blind to the growing hatred against Muslims, I wonder if the efforts by our activist friends in the US to stop him from entering that soil mean anything other than a hypocracy. After all, he continues to live and do what he pleases in India/Gujarat, but we won't allow him in the US... Isn't that ridiculous? Are they trying to teach him a lesson, or punish him through this gesture? Is his non-entry into the US going to badly affect the Gujaratis' business and trade (which he is supposed to solemnize in New Jersey)? Not the least, I think. So what is it then? Is it a symbolic rejection of his leadership? Or do the NRI and American activist want to show that they care about Gujarat's Muslims more than the activists in India? Although this analogy maybe completely wrong, but I can't help think this: "We won't allow a germ-infested food that is killing thousands in India to enter the US".... Other thoughts are welcome. ========== USCIRF Urges Denial of U.S. Visa to Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE July 8, 2008 Contact: Judith Ingram Communications Director (202) 523-3240, ext. 127 WASHINGTON - The United States Commission on International Religious Freedom urges the U.S. State Department to reaffirm its past decision to deny a tourist visa to Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi, who has been invited to attend a conference in New Jersey this August celebrating Gujarati culture. Modi was previously denied entrance to the United States due to his role in riots that overtook the Indian state of Gujarat from February to May 2002 in which reportedly as many as 2,000 Muslims were killed, thousands raped, and over 200,000 displaced. Numerous reports, including reports of official bodies of the Government of India, have documented the role of Modi's state government in the planning and execution of the violence, and the failure to hold perpetrators accountable. Following Modi's invitation to attend conferences in the U.S. in 2005, the Commission successfully urged the State Department to revoke Modi's U.S. tourist visa. Despite pressure from the Indian government, the State Department revoked his visa under the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), which prohibits foreign government officials who are "responsible for or directly carried out, at any time, particularly severe violations of religious freedom" from obtaining U.S. visas. This section was added to the INA by the International Religious Freedom Act of 1998. The Commission once again urges the State Department to announce Modi's ineligibility for a visa under the terms of the INA. "We have not seen changes that would warrant a policy reversal," said Commission Chair Felice D. Gaer. "As official bodies of the government of India have found, Narendra Modi is culpable for the egregious and systematic human rights abuses wrought against thousands of India's Muslims. Mr. Modi must demonstrate to the State Department and to the American people why he-as a person found to have aided and abetted gross violations of human rights, including religious freedom-should now be eligible for a tourist visa. Following the riots in 2002, India's National Human Rights Commission issued a report that pointed to the role of Modi's government in the systematic murder of Muslims and the calculated destruction of Muslim homes and businesses. In 2003, the Indian central government found corruption and anti-Muslim bias to be so pervasive in the Gujarat judiciary that riot cases were shifted for trial to the neighboring state of Maharashtra. Despite this action, the lack of justice for victims remains a serious concern, as there have been very few court convictions in the six years since the religion-based riots. In 2007, a series of articles in the Indian publication Tehelka documented police officers and government officials on audio and videotape confessing that they facilitated the violence, at times at the direct behest of Modi. "The inaction of Gujarat's government and police force in the face of severe violence against religious minorities is an inexcusable abuse of international human rights obligations," Gaer said. Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 20:18:58 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 20:18:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured In-Reply-To: <921364.40932.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <36514.58148.qm@web53607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <921364.40932.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70807090748y5839fbdaj5757236fbcc6eb88@mail.gmail.com> dear kshmendra in the least i expect you not to contest the fact fact that the country is run by thugs and dynasty politics or regligous fanatics. and like you, i too want indians to win a cricket or hockey match, but that does not dilute my whatever understanding of the freedom of human spirit, you are free to have your own convictions...but please forgive me to quote again, this time not out of context, i believe, jis thaali mein se khao, ussi mein cheid karo" (demolish the hearth that gives you your food). ' is the indian map a 'thaali' which we use to eat, but where we defecate ?.... not in pakistan, i beleive, but actually here in india...and that is not unntural... and who owns this thaali? and you know if there is someone who is denied a space to share this 'thaali' why on earth this thaali is spared from punctures ( cheid ). just imagine if you were not born in a Brahmin family but in a landless dalit family of Bihar or orrisa, the same applies to a 'wattul' (chamar) of kashmir. when we say we are nationalist we really defecate on this kind of other, who is being harrassed by the state, whose dignity has yet to be restored, who is still wondering about his being labelled as Harijaan, it is indeed sad. now profoundly, which i know you will not contest either this is from poet abdul ahad zargar from kashmir yeth seet nikam parim ba tadbeer, tas hinzay babi chom dam dam sheer ( i suckled the nipples of someone with whom i got married ) ( oh, the translation is terrible) now, here even the meaning of incest get reversed.... we are bound to arrive at new meaning once we are willing to expose our beings to that unpridictable of reality.... jis thaali mein se khao, ussi mein cheid karo" (demolish the hearth that gives you your food).now please re-read your own quoted phrase, thre is something good in it, as i see the text written on the trucks buri nazar walay tara munh kala, ( go to hell if you think ill about me ) but there are some other trucks which read buri nazar walay tera be bhalla. ( god luck to you even if you think ill about me ) choice is ours, what we want for others, once we are gone, love inder salim > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 3:10 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Rahul > > Most people, I would think, howsoever strongly they believe in "Nationalism" would in the normal course of day-to-day living be somewhat 'indifferent' towards "Nationalism". They would not be waking-sleeping obsessed with it. I am not. > > It is only when dismissiveness towards "Nationalism" is used to propagate 'so what if the country breaks up' that warning bells sound for someone like me. > > To use a cliched phrase, it is akin to "jis thaali mein se khao, ussi mein cheid karo" (demolish the hearth that gives you your food). > > Maybe it is intellectually and/or ideologically fashionable to dismiss "Nationalism" > > Interestingly "National Interest' is the 'mantra' being used to justify their position by everyone ranged on either side of the 'nuclear deal' divide. That is how it should be. > > Also interestingly, it has created some strange bedfellowship as between the Left and BJP. That is how it should be. Any friggin (Individual or Collective) Political, Social, Religious or Economic ideology should be secondary to "National Interest". > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Wed, 7/9/08, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > From: Rahul Asthana > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 injured > To: reader-list at sarai.net, "inder salim" > Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008, 7:15 AM > > Dear Inder, > I am also "indifferent to nationalism".With that out of the way,what > do you propose we should campaign for,support,preach,do etc with respect to > your pan national vision in general and Kashmir in particular?How can we bring > your dream to fruition in Kashmir?In what way can we help Kashmiris and > Kashmir and make a difference there? > > P.S.1 You don't have to answer this question if this cause is not important > to you.Or maybe just answer it as an academic exercise. > 2.Continuing to dream and write poetry and sing songs is also a valid answer,I > will accept it. > > > Thanks > Rahul > > > --- On Tue, 7/8/08, inder salim wrote: > >> From: inder salim >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among 14 > injured >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 11:24 PM >> Dear Rahul >> have u ever wondered why there is a song called ' >> imagine there is no country ' >> and if it is just a song and everything else is rock solid, >> then i >> feel there is not even iron in the soul, >> it is barren, and our head pieces is filled with staw.... >> >> now what is soul? whenever i go to Socretes as a >> teacher i feel >> the urge to question 'the state' endlessly ... >> similarly when i read >> myth , i see a good a king in the form of Raja Harish >> Chander who >> abandoned his throne for a word..... and again who is great >> prince? I >> think of Buddha.... i think if one fills ones soul with >> such a teacher >> and such a king and prince then that 'iron' might >> keep on coming and >> going...dissolving with the fresh water of a country called >> no-man's >> land >> >> I think of Manto's Toba Tek Singh, in that there is a >> mad character, >> who has no place under the sun upon which is goverened by >> laws and >> systems.... but that his death between the boarders of two >> countries >> smashed nationalism in one go... i like the tools which rip >> a word, a >> system, a status quo...may be i am also mad.... >> >> but there is some method in this madness....and there are >> many >> practiontioners of this madness in our world.. these mad >> people have >> worked passionetly for the understnding of human being..... >> they need >> space to be.... >> >> further, when i say nationalism, i say NAY-TIONALISM... >> this can be >> the mantra....the mantra which restores the existential >> dignity of a >> human being.... >> >> France and Englad fought like mad dogs but today there is a >> single >> currency in europe... why can we dream something similar in >> Aisa, >> >> i think Gandhi ji would be delighted to see that currency >> without his >> toothless image on it.... >> >> you said that i dislike nationalsim, i dont, i am >> indifferent to nationalism.... >> and when people who listens similar music too share halva >> puri or >> nihiri/paya they really share love, >> >> but you know how we oppose our women to marry with men of >> other religion... >> is that STATE you admire....which is busy playing vote bank >> politics >> in the name of democracy... >> >> now, i dont know what is the priorirty of issues in your >> opinion..... >> i think women's issues is as important as environmental >> issues, which >> is as important as ethics and morals which is as important >> as respect >> for the common man.... >> >> and above all, there is something called PAST which >> surpasses our >> written word...surpasses our written history...it is aobut >> that >> memory which is in the form of TIME embedded within us... >> our >> collective memory >> >> it is not about a slogan, saray jahan say >> achha...unfortunately when >> we sing it we sing 'the meaning', but not the >> poem... >> State officers and corrupt ministers of a country... >> >> i dont think i have been able to answer your question.. >> because you >> feel majority is with you...i am minority within the >> minority within >> the minority... >> >> so love >> is >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 8:25 PM, Rahul Asthana >> wrote: >> > Hi Inder, >> > Your position of "not believing in >> nationalism" is typical of many on this list.I am not >> arguing for nationalism against anarchy. I do not think >> there is anything noble in being a nationalist >> \patriot. But I do realize the utilitarian value of the >> concept of nation.Anyhow, lets for a while assume that your >> idea of "not believing in the nationalism" is the >> way to go. >> > What do you suppose we should do now? Organize an >> Indo-Pak concert where someone will sing "Imagine >> there's no country" or perhaps Sayonee by Junoon >> and then everyone will start hugging,kissing and dancing >> kumbaya with each other, halwa poori or nihari\paya >> will be distributed and all will go home and live happily >> ever after. Is that likely to happen? >> > A while back,when I was making the argument that >> sovereign Kashmir is not a feasible state(for reasons that >> I had given earlier),the arguments I got in response was >> that I was not romantic enough,I had a diseased mind, >> Kashmir is too beautiful to stay occupied etc etc.. Then >> there was the usual "I dont believe in >> nationalism". >> > Your dislike of nationalism may be the principle >> around which you frame your argument but THAT STATEMENT, BY >> ITSELF CAN NOT BE YOUR ARGUMENT.If you can build any >> realistic and pragmatic course of action around that >> principle then you should forward it.Just chanting this >> mantra of "not believing in nationalism",is >> neither here nor there and would make you irrelevant.Till >> the time that nation states are a reality you cant just >> ignore them or wish them away. >> > >> > Regards >> > Rahul >> > >> > --- On Tue, 7/8/08, inder salim >> wrote: >> > >> >> From: inder salim >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near Hazratbal; >> Shabir Shah among 14 injured >> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> >> Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:39 AM >> >> dear kshmendra >> >> >> >> for now, all i want to say is that i am not for >> any kind of >> >> nationalism.... i dont know what that will lead >> to, i think >> >> it will be >> >> perhpas better for humanity, if nation states >> disappear >> >> suddenly and >> >> enable people to move freely on this planet >> earth.... >> >> >> >> i have a dream, you may say it is utopian... so >> what. >> >> >> >> desire for nation is not bad, i have huge >> admiration for >> >> people like >> >> Bhagat Singh, but the the powers sturctures that >> cling on >> >> the that >> >> state in the name of democracy or people is >> fradulent. Now >> >> dont tell >> >> me that we helpless to not-to-see-the-other >> >> >> >> it is interesting to notice how people's >> simple faith >> >> gets translated >> >> into something necessary costly rituals...say >> prem >> >> chand's Govdaan, >> >> .. . i see misery for the innocent lot, and for >> that i have >> >> every >> >> right to undermine, a state, a religion or an >> >> identiy....and once it >> >> becomes a system that gnaws the dignity >> existential core >> >> of human >> >> being,..... i want to restore that >> >> >> >> one is free to remain glued to something as long >> as it >> >> keeps on >> >> milking other's cow. that is why i talked >> about morals >> >> and ethics. >> >> >> >> now see, there is a great democracy in america and >> england >> >> but when i >> >> comes to their foreign affairs they looks >> barbarians.... >> >> and i dont know how to admire their democratic >> systems >> >> endlessly if >> >> there is no change.... right now, everyting is >> stuck, >> >> >> >> just see, what their democracies did to afganistan >> and >> >> iraq. i have >> >> more respect for a poor afgani who >> >> has no choice but to shoot alongwith a taliban >> commander >> >> and work in >> >> poppy fields in comparison to some one who is >> drinking beer >> >> in new >> >> york while criticizing muslim fundamentalism.... >> >> >> >> in that sense, i have nothing against politics, >> but against >> >> the >> >> polticians who are at the helm of affairs.....as >> jean paul >> >> sartre says >> >> that politics enters through all the pores of your >> >> body,....and >> >> realization of that sensitizes me, realization of >> that >> >> reduces my >> >> arrogance, and i think that is how i want to >> understand >> >> politics, >> >> >> >> and that way i know what is the meaning of GAME in >> >> politics.... now you that.... >> >> >> >> now religion, i believe, >> >> the state has no business to enter the affairs of >> the >> >> shrine.... why >> >> on earth state should provide facilites to a >> piligrim... >> >> a true piligrim has to be really prepared , both >> physically >> >> and mentally.... >> >> and above all, SHIVA i believe is about death >> also... you >> >> might be >> >> knowing, there is a mountain , just one stop >> before the >> >> amarnath cave >> >> which is called Bhairav Baal, and it was famous >> for real >> >> piligirms to >> >> climb it and jump on the other side of it....a >> true love of >> >> shiva will >> >> be quite educated and brave and should understand >> the >> >> significance of >> >> death and sprituality in one go... >> >> >> >> i still dont understand how a shiva lover can >> throw stones >> >> at others, >> >> or burn a tyre, if one goes by the kashmiri >> philisophy of >> >> shivaism >> >> well you are within your rights to call it >> politics, but i >> >> see decadence in it >> >> >> >> at the best it is opportunism, and once it is so, >> it is >> >> free for all, >> >> >> >> once we realize the absence of morals and ethics >> in our >> >> political >> >> acitivity, we are at the mercy of goons and the >> politicians >> >> who love >> >> to make a fool of each one of us. >> >> >> >> about disrespect, just show me one communtiy, at >> grass root >> >> level, in >> >> the world history which not suffered humiliation >> at the >> >> hands of their >> >> rulers. >> >> that is why i am not interested in those who >> eulogise kings >> >> and queens >> >> for this or that.... people have suffered, even >> when a >> >> great king was >> >> constructing a Taj mahal or making a great wall in >> china, >> >> same goes >> >> for the construction of great temples and >> mosques.......i >> >> see pain of >> >> a human being in the form of an monument, beauty >> of it >> >> comes next.... >> >> >> >> that way i see the possibity of a shift in >> histroy, that >> >> way we can >> >> see the emergence of a new politics, a new way of >> living, >> >> beyond >> >> mindsets and old designs , old territories.... >> >> >> >> my dear, that muse on the classical canvas died >> long >> >> ago.... we are >> >> finished with waste land even, we have come to a >> stage when >> >> even >> >> writing a poem is impossiblity.... >> >> >> >> politics is dead in that sense...the issue is >> ethics, >> >> environment, and >> >> my favourite word 'love' is kicking >> alive, >> >> >> >> with love and regards >> >> is >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >> >> wrote: >> >> > Dear Inder Salim >> >> > >> >> > You say "i know you know well what i am >> talking >> >> about...." >> >> > >> >> > No Sir I do not. Either we are talking about >> different >> >> things or it must be the limitations of my >> understanding. >> >> > >> >> > It must also be the limitations of my being >> able to >> >> express myself that you read meanings other than >> what I >> >> think I have placed in my words. >> >> > >> >> > - I ddear o not know what "GAMES" >> you are >> >> talking about. If you explain them in simple >> words, I might >> >> be able to comment >> >> > >> >> > - I spoke about "respect" for >> >> "constancy" in "political >> positions". >> >> That could or could not translate into >> "respect" >> >> for the person. That also does not preclude the >> ones being >> >> talked about being political adversaries or being >> enemies >> >> of my country >> >> > >> >> > - Let me give another example. I see China >> as being >> >> (if not an enemy these days) inimical towards >> India on many >> >> fronts. Yet I have immense respect for China in >> many >> >> spheres. >> >> > >> >> > - Let me give another example. I see Pakistan >> as >> >> continuing to be an enemy of India. I have no >> respect for >> >> (I have contempt for) Pakistan's shifts over >> Kashmir >> >> especially in the context of it's duplicity >> with the >> >> "Hurriyat Pasand". Yet there are things >> about and >> >> from Pakistan I love. I love their Muslin and >> Men's >> >> Shalvaar Kameez, I love Mehdi Hassan and Nayyara >> Noor and >> >> Sabri Brothers, I love Faiz and Parveen Shakir and >> Amjad >> >> Islam Amjad >> >> > >> >> > - Saw your list of those you respect. I have >> no >> >> argument with you over that list. >> >> > >> >> > - You do not respect 'politicians'. >> For me >> >> that is too generalised a statement. Maybe I would >> not >> >> respect "some" or even "most" >> >> politicians" but the political system is >> essential (in >> >> my opinion) to any organised society. Irrespective >> of the >> >> form of Government or quality of Governance, every >> country >> >> has a political system. It has to have one. If >> there >> >> isn't one, there will be anarchy. In the case >> of a >> >> "democracy", the politician is of >> critical >> >> importance to the citizen. The Constitution allows >> Laws, >> >> Laws take shape from Legislation, Legislation is >> enacted by >> >> Legislators, Legislators are Politicians. Every >> aspect of >> >> the quality of life in India (for example) is >> directly or >> >> indirectly affected on and effected by the >> Politicians. You >> >> may be dismissive of Politicians if you want to >> be. For me >> >> Politicians are extremely important entities to be >> >> evaluated and sieved in one's judgement. >> >> > >> >> > - I am a firm believer that my final societal >> identity >> >> is the Passport I hold or am eligible for. All >> Inter- Nation >> >> interactions including those of their citizens are >> >> conditional to the Laws of each country. Yes I am >> a firm >> >> believer in 'nationalism'. I subscribe to >> Indian >> >> Nationalism. You perhaps are more tuned (correct >> if I have >> >> misheard the strains) into Kashmiri Nationalism. >> Only the >> >> forces of Nature respect no National Boundaries. >> All other >> >> aspects of our lives are linked to the country we >> belong to >> >> (because the Laws of the country govern every >> other aspect >> >> of our lives). Actually the Laws of a Country can >> even >> >> interfere with the reign of Nature, which is when >> >> Environmental Concerns take centre-stage. >> >> > >> >> > - Is the "Kashmir issue" about >> "Ethics >> >> & Morals"? Perhaps it is to some degree >> in some >> >> areas. I see it more as being about "Rights >> and >> >> Responsibilities" and even more so as being >> >> "Political" and about >> "Religion" >> >> > >> >> > - You speak about the Kashmiri >> "Muslims" >> >> having been disrespected. I do not understand >> that >> >> judgement. Perhaps you might elaborate on how the >> >> "Muslims" of Kashmir have been >> >> "disrespected". >> >> > >> >> > - You speak about the SASB affair having >> >> "undermined the sensitivity of .... >> Muslims". >> >> Again I do not understand how SASB affair is >> linked with >> >> "Kashmiri Muslims". Unless of course you >> yourself >> >> subscribe to the view that the SASB affair was one >> of >> >> Muslims against Hindus. >> >> > >> >> > (By your pointed reference to >> "Muslims" you >> >> seem to be in agreement with me that the >> "Kashmir >> >> Issue" is about "Religion") >> >> > >> >> > - You speak about " 1990 disrespect to >> kashmiri >> >> pandits" being about "ethics and >> morals". >> >> Perhaps it is to some extent. I see it more as a >> Political >> >> affair. I see it more as failure of governance >> (both at the >> >> Centre and State) in having allowed a "fear >> >> atmosphere" to develop. >> >> > >> >> > At least in this mail I see the point that >> you are >> >> trying to make. Correct me if I understood >> wrongly. You >> >> state that you "know" what you should >> >> "respect" and seem to suggest I do not >> >> "know". Fair enough. You are entitled to >> your >> >> judgement. >> >> > >> >> > Kshmendra >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > --- On Mon, 7/7/08, inder salim >> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > From: inder salim >> >> >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near >> Hazratbal; >> >> Shabir Shah among 14 injured >> >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net >> >> > Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 7:00 PM >> >> > >> >> > Dear kshmendra >> >> > >> >> > i quote myself >> >> > >> >> > and once we are finished with these games.... >> only >> >> then we can begin >> >> > to talk about ETHICS and MORALS >> >> > >> >> > it is again your choice to ignore the most >> important >> >> line of my last >> >> > post... i dont feel insecure .... >> >> > >> >> > i know you know well what i am talking >> about.... >> >> > >> >> > now see, you take a position with regard to >> >> 'Respect', >> >> > you respect, i dont know whethere with >> capital R or >> >> with small r, but >> >> > u respect the politicians who are against the >> >> occupation of indian >> >> > foreces in kashmir.but strangely in the next >> line you >> >> think that they >> >> > are enemies of the indian state and you are >> Indian, >> >> right . >> >> > i >> >> > on the contrary i dont respect a politican, >> ....... i >> >> have respect for >> >> > a poet, a musician, an ariist, a social >> worker a >> >> simple worker, a job >> >> > less man frustrated by the indiferent state. >> i respect >> >> a poor man on >> >> > the road side, i respect a tribalman who is >> contantly >> >> being driven >> >> > out of his ecology , >> >> > >> >> > i respect millions of landless people in >> india.... i >> >> have respect for >> >> > the womens rights, i repect you has a human >> being and >> >> in that sense i >> >> > respect a politician even. >> >> > >> >> > yes, i respect the morals and ethics, more >> than being >> >> a nationalist >> >> > merely as an identity tag....i respect >> rebels...... i >> >> respect my >> >> > teacher AK Mir who publically slapped Mufti >> Mohd Syed >> >> in Bijbehara >> >> > because he as a Congress pradesh president >> >> masterminded 1986 communal >> >> > riots.... i respect a petty theif who threw >> shit on >> >> the judge in delhi >> >> > because he was languishing in the jail and >> could not >> >> afford to bail >> >> > himself out. >> >> > >> >> > i have respect for the courage.... and >> similarly i >> >> have respect for >> >> > those who uphold their existential beings >> wheenver the >> >> state or the >> >> > power structures openly supress and >> disrespects the >> >> ethics and morals >> >> > of the other.... >> >> > >> >> > that is why kashmir issue is about ethics and >> morals >> >> as well..... >> >> > >> >> > that is why the land transter to shrine board >> >> undermined the >> >> > sensitivity of the already disrespected >> kashmiri >> >> muslims... >> >> > >> >> > that is why 1990 disrespect to kashmiri >> pandits is >> >> also about ethics >> >> > and morals as well.. >> >> > >> >> > i see human being through this prism of >> ethics and >> >> morals ... i mix >> >> > love with it and see some possiblity to heal >> the self >> >> and the other at >> >> > the same time..i may fail in the end because >> plolitics >> >> is exercised >> >> > quite ruthlessly in india and abroad.... but >> i dont >> >> regret about my >> >> > position. >> >> > >> >> > at least i know what i should respect >> >> > >> >> > with love >> >> > inder salim >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Kshmendra >> Kaul >> >> >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> Dear Inder Salim >> >> >> >> >> >> I wish I had understood what point you >> were trying >> >> to make. >> >> >> >> >> >> What I did notice is your quoting me >> partially and >> >> out of context and then >> >> > using that to put a spin on my words so that >> you could >> >> indulge in innuendos and >> >> > make judgements about me. >> >> >> >> >> >> I was talking of having respect for the >> >> 'constant political >> >> > position' of people whoever it may be. >> Geelani was >> >> an example for the sake >> >> > of comparing with (what I see as) >> hypocritical >> >> declamations of the >> >> > "moderate" Hurriyatis (especially >> Umar >> >> Farooq) and their claims of >> >> > their brand of the "Hurriyat" call >> being a >> >> 'secular' one. It >> >> > is called 'munaafaqat'. >> >> >> >> >> >> Just to explain it further, I similarly >> have >> >> respect for the 'constant >> >> > political position' of Yasin Malik in >> that he >> >> wants (or used to want) the >> >> > erstwhile princely State of Jammu & >> Kashmir to be >> >> an Independent Country >> >> > with it's territories freed from both >> Indian and >> >> Pakistani control. Again I >> >> > say this at the risk of being lynched by my >> KP >> >> brethren. Yasin, in proclaiming >> >> > his having eschewed violence was foolish >> enough to >> >> admit that he (and/or JKLF) >> >> > had previous to that indulged in >> 'killings' >> >> >> >> >> >> I disagree with both positions, of >> Geelani and >> >> Yasin, but that does not >> >> > stop me from acknowledging their constancy. >> >> >> >> >> >> Inder you talk about my >> 'positions' but >> >> you obviously have no idea >> >> > of what they are. You only presume. >> >> >> >> >> >> Anyone who seeks to disturb the peace in >> my >> >> country India is for me an >> >> > enemy of the nation. Anyone who seeks to >> break-up >> >> India or bring in violent >> >> > divides between it's people is for me an >> enemy of >> >> India. They should be >> >> > recognised as, dealt with and treated as >> enemies. >> >> Before your make another >> >> > presumption, the 'recognising', >> 'dealing >> >> with' and >> >> > 'treating' as enemies neither >> automatically >> >> means nor is suggested by >> >> > me should be done by repressive means or >> incarceration >> >> or State Violence. >> >> >> >> >> >> The affiliations of these >> 'enemies' are of >> >> no importance. They >> >> > could be from Hurriyat Conference, or JKLF or >> RSS or >> >> VHP or Bajrang Dal or SIMI >> >> > or any other organisation. >> >> >> >> >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- On Sun, 7/6/08, inder salim >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> From: inder salim >> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle near >> Hazratbal; >> >> Shabir Shah among 14 >> >> > injured >> >> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> >> >> Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 11:39 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> Dear Kshmendra >> >> >> >> >> >> I quote you, "but I have much more >> respect >> >> for the constant political >> >> >> position of someone like Hurriyati >> hardliner Syed >> >> Ali Shah Geelani" >> >> >> >> >> >> just read your statment again and >> remember when >> >> Syed Ali Shah Geelani >> >> >> too said similar about RSS. He really >> dislkes >> >> anything secular >> >> >> because a religous stand is logical for >> both >> >> Geelani sahib and for >> >> >> RSS. anything else is ambigous >> >> >> >> >> >> now i quote you again, "It has >> amused me >> >> more to see how easily the >> >> >> likes of Umar Farooq, Prof Abdul Ghani >> Bhat, >> >> Shabbir Shah (and other >> >> >> Hurriyat 'moderates') are able to >> fool >> >> people into buying their >> >> >> 'secular' credentials" >> >> >> >> >> >> just remember when Atal Behari Vajpayee >> wrote a >> >> poem about the sad >> >> >> demolition of Babri Mosque...The words >> moistened >> >> the eyes of the >> >> >> naive, but we knew how crocodile weeps... >> you also >> >> know it well >> >> >> >> >> >> now i know there are positions, well you >> are >> >> within your rights to >> >> >> hold one ... that is ok >> >> >> >> >> >> i just met a kashmiri pandit who was >> demonstrating >> >> at jantar mantar >> >> >> today.... and i sarcastically >> congratulated about >> >> the news KASHSMIR >> >> >> PANDITOON NAY TODFOD KI, ( riots by >> kashmir >> >> pandits ) It is perhaps >> >> >> for the first time i heard about such a >> news. He >> >> understood and >> >> >> replied quickly... " if we dont >> resort to >> >> thes acts who will listen >> >> > to >> >> >> us, we are politically irrlevant in the >> present >> >> political >> >> >> situation.... we need to read these >> situations >> >> quickly, and we do it >> >> >> from time to time. " >> >> >> >> >> >> now see how their brother is the valley >> do the >> >> same things for their >> >> >> own survial. for example PDP, who need >> to >> >> something from time to time >> >> >> to stay in relevant in the volatite >> politcal games >> >> being played in the >> >> >> valley..... what is so wrong about it if >> >> everything else is not. >> >> >> >> >> >> and once we are finished with these >> games.... only >> >> then we can being >> >> >> to talk about ETHICS and MORALS >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> till then best >> >> >> >> >> >> inder salim >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 12:27 AM, >> Kshmendra Kaul >> >> > >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >>> Dear Sonia >> >> >>> >> >> >>> There is nothing surprising in the >> religious >> >> place Hazrartbal being >> >> > the >> >> >> start-point for the 'victory' >> rally. It >> >> only reinforces the >> >> > evaluation >> >> >> that the 'victory' was sought by >> one >> >> religion over the other. For >> >> > those >> >> >> who achieved the 'victory', what >> better >> >> place to start the >> >> > celebration >> >> >> than a Shrine/Mosque. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Our 'secular' commentators >> may spout >> >> various theories and >> >> > analyses >> >> >> but those who were a part of that >> >> 'victory' were obviously honest >> >> > about >> >> >> what they had achieved and in the name of >> which >> >> religion. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Whether it has been the 1931 >> 'bread >> >> movement' or the intense >> >> >> rivalry between the 'sher' (of >> Sheikh >> >> Abdullah) and >> >> > 'bakra' (of >> >> >> Maulvi Farooq) or the Hurriyat >> >> (freedom/separatist) movement, the pulpits >> >> > of >> >> >> both Hazratbal and Jama Masjid have been >> used as >> >> much for political >> >> >> speeches/sloganeering and calls for >> separatism as >> >> they have been for >> >> > religious >> >> >> sermons. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> It has always amused me to see Umar >> Farooq (as >> >> just one example among >> >> >> others) indulge in such political >> >> speeches/sloganeering from Jama Masjid, >> >> > or >> >> >> visit and seek support from his Political >> Mecca of >> >> OIC (and/or Pakistan) >> >> > and >> >> >> yet at the same time hypocritically claim >> that the >> >> "Hurriyat" >> >> >> movement is a secular one. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> It has amused me more to see how >> easily the >> >> likes of Umar Farooq, Prof >> >> >> Abdul Ghani Bhat, Shabbir Shah (and other >> Hurriyat >> >> 'moderates') >> >> > are >> >> >> able to fool people into buying their >> >> 'secular' credentials. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> My Kashmiri Pandit brethren might >> lynch me for >> >> saying this, but I have >> >> >> much more respect for the constant >> political >> >> position of someone like >> >> > Hurriyati >> >> >> hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani (even if >> I >> >> disagree with his arguments) >> >> > who is >> >> >> firm in his belief that J&K as Muslim >> Majority >> >> 'territory' >> >> > should >> >> >> be a part of Pakistan. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> I am sure you did not mean to equate >> the >> >> situations but I found it >> >> > strange >> >> >> that you mentioned in the same breath the >> >> "peaceful... victory >> >> > rally" >> >> >> starting from Hazratbal with "siege >> of Hazrat >> >> Bal in the early >> >> > '90s or >> >> >> for that matter the siege of Charar >> e-Sharif in >> >> '95 or >> >> >>> for that matter the Golden Temple in >> the >> >> '80s". >> >> >>> >> >> >>> In all three 'siege' >> mentioned, there >> >> were bands of armed >> >> >> terrorists holed up inside the three >> religious >> >> places. Some might choose >> >> > to >> >> >> call them 'freedom fighters' or >> >> "Mujahideen". >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Kshmendra >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> --- On Sat, 7/5/08, S. Jabbar >> >> wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> From: S. Jabbar >> >> >> >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Scuffle >> near >> >> Hazratbal; Shabir Shah among >> >> > 14 >> >> >> injured >> >> >>> To: "Shivam Vij शिवम् >> >> विज् " >> >> >> , "sarai >> list" >> >> >> >> >> >>> Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 1:07 PM >> >> >>> >> >> >>> I think you may want to ask why it >> was >> >> necessary to begin a victory >> >> > rally >> >> >>> from a religious place and how any of >> us would >> >> have reacted if Advani >> >> > were >> >> >>> to embark on another >> 'victory' rally >> >> from Somnath or Ayodhya. >> >> >> These >> >> >>> so-called victory rallies will only >> add fuel >> >> to the Jammu-Kashmir/ >> >> >>> Hindu-Muslim conflagration. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Hazrat Bal and the Jama Masjid are >> not neutral >> >> sites and have been >> >> >>> politically charged ever since the >> 1930s when >> >> the Quit Kashmir >> >> > movement >> >> >> was >> >> >>> launched against the Maharaja. What >> must have >> >> started off as an >> >> > equally >> >> >>> 'peaceful' gathering turned >> violent >> >> and a man was killed. >> >> > That >> >> >> was >> >> >>> reason >> >> >>> enough for mass rioting. You may be >> aware of >> >> the siege of Hazrat Bal >> >> > in >> >> >> the >> >> >>> early '90s or for that matter the >> siege of >> >> Charar e-Sharif in >> >> > '95 >> >> >> or >> >> >>> for >> >> >>> that matter the Golden Temple in the >> '80s. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> The Hurriyat is not unaware that the >> state >> >> cannot risk a religious >> >> > site >> >> >>> becoming another site of >> contestation. It >> >> would try and control what >> >> > in >> >> >> all >> >> >>> likelihood would turn into yet >> another >> >> communally charged and violent >> >> >> event. >> >> >>> And yet it decided to go ahead. The >> stakes >> >> are high and I really >> >> >> don't >> >> >>> think anyone is above using religion >> to >> >> further their political ends. >> >> >>> --sj >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On 7/5/08 12:43 PM, "Shivam Vij >> >> शिवम् >> >> > विज्" >> >> >>> wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> This is what happens when you >> prevent >> >> people from addressing >> >> >>>> peaceful >> >> >>> gatherings... >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> o o o o >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Scuffle near Hazratbal; Shabir Shah >> among >> >> >>>> 14 injured >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Special Correspondent, 5 July >> >> >>>> 2008 >> >> >>> >> >> >> http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/05/stories/2008070559931300.htm >> >> >>> >> >> >>> The clash >> >> >>>> followed prayers to celebrate the >> >> "victory" in the land >> >> >> transfer >> >> >>>> issue >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> SRINAGAR: Senior Hurriyat Conference >> leader >> >> Shabir Shah was among >> >> >>>> 14 >> >> >>> people injured on Friday, following a >> scuffle >> >> between police and >> >> >>> supporters >> >> >>>> of separatist leaders after they >> offered >> >> prayers at the >> >> >>> Hazratbal shrine to >> >> >>>> celebrate the recent >> "victory" >> >> in the land >> >> >>> transfer issue. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> The call for >> >> >>>> "Hazratbal Chalo" was >> given by >> >> Syed Ali Geelani, head of >> >> >>> a faction of the >> >> >>>> Hurriyat Conference and supported >> by >> >> Mirwaiz Umar >> >> >>> Farooq, head of another. >> >> >>>> However, both were placed under >> house >> >> arrest >> >> >>> by the police. Mr. Shah and other >> >> >>>> leaders, however, reached >> Hazratbal >> >> >>> amid heavy deployment of police and >> >> >>>> paramilitary CRPF and offered >> >> >>> prayers besides addressing the >> people. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Mr. Shah >> >> >>>> and Ashraf Sehrai, another senior >> leader >> >> denounced the >> >> >>> government for putting >> >> >>>> Mr. Geelani and Mr. Mirwaiz under >> house >> >> arrest. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> A protester hurls back a tear >> >> >>>> smoke shell towards the police. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On their way back, Mr. Shabir Shah, >> Mr. >> >> >>>> Sehrai, Naeem Khan, Sheikh >> >> >>> Aziz, Shafi Reshi, Firdous Shah and >> others led >> >> a >> >> >>>> strong procession, >> >> >>> which was lathi-charged. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Fourteen people, including Mr. >> >> >>>> Shabir Shah, were injured. He was >> >> >>> shifted to the S.K. Institute of >> Medical >> >> >>>> Sciences (SKIMS) for >> >> >>> treatment. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Even as rumours spread that he was >> critical, >> >> >>>> Director SKIMS Abdul >> >> >>> Hamid Zargar told The Hindu that he >> was >> >> stable. Another >> >> >>>> procession >> >> >>> taken from Jamia Masjid and led by >> the head >> >> imam, was dispersed >> >> >>>> by >> >> >>> police with smoke shells. Many people >> were >> >> arrested. Another >> >> >>>> Hurriyat >> >> >>> leader Javed Mir was arrested when he >> tried to >> >> take out a >> >> >>>> procession >> >> >>> towards Hazratbal in Khanyar >> >> >>>> area. >> >> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >>> reader-list: an open >> >> >>>> discussion list on media and the >> city. >> >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >>> To >> >> >>>> subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >> subscribe >> >> >>> in >> >> >>>> the subject header. >> >> >>> To unsubscribe: >> >> >>>> >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >>> List archive: >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list >> on media >> >> and the city. >> >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >> subscribe in >> >> >>> the subject header. >> >> >>> To unsubscribe: >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >>> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list >> on media >> >> and the city. >> >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >>> To unsubscribe: >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >>> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on >> media and >> >> the city. >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in >> >> >> the subject header. >> >> >> To unsubscribe: >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on >> media and >> >> the city. >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >> To unsubscribe: >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > >> >> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media >> and the >> >> city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> >> > the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media >> and the >> >> city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the subject >> >> header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and >> the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the subject >> >> header. >> >> To unsubscribe: >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject >> header. >> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From editor at intertheory.org Wed Jul 9 20:50:34 2008 From: editor at intertheory.org (Nicholas Ruiz III) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:20:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] DNJ piece Message-ID: <642417.86173.qm@web903.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Bonjour On political uselessness: http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/Opinion/Editorials/opnOPN84070908.htm enjoy. NRIII Dr. Nicholas Ruiz III Associate Professor Department of Humanities, Cultural and Studio Arts Daytona State College PO Box 2811 Daytona Beach, FL 32120-2811 Editor, Kritikos http://intertheory.org From rashmi.sawhney at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 20:54:26 2008 From: rashmi.sawhney at gmail.com (Rashmi Sawhney) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 16:24:26 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? In-Reply-To: <187818.64334.qm@web8410.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <187818.64334.qm@web8410.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <91290c60807090824m63176a0akd07d3940eeafc904@mail.gmail.com> Dear Fatima, Your analogy, I must agree with you, may probably be wrong, but is certainly naive and unproductive. A second denial of entry into the US may be seen from within Modi camps as being detrimental to his efforts of furthering the lie about a vibrant Gujarat. There are enough numbers of religious fundamentalists in the Western world who support Modi's Hindutva ideology, who may probably not take to the visa refusal kindly. Had the US granted Modi entry so many anti Modi individuals and organisations around the world, including in India, would be agitaged about this too. It is not a question of whether the activists in the US and NRIs want to demonstrate that their sympathy for Gujarat's Muslims is more than activists in India - I think that is a reductive approach that defeats the purpose of a collective anti-Modi struggle. If you want to campaign against the USA's discriminatory and hypocritic policies, there are many other widely available issues that you could pick on - issues that affect common people without any clout or power. Most countries have their own 'germ-infested foods' that are rapidly destroying any social fabrics composed of difference - perhaps one could consider the option of deputing germs-infested foods from different societies to other parts of the world to see if they survive under hostile and foreign conditions. Or, if your approach to solving the problem of Gujarat is to 'export' the germ-infested food, please consider throwing it in the sea. On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 3:30 PM, S.Fatima wrote: > Please see the report/appeal below, about another effort to stop the > Gujarat CM Narendra Modi from entering the US. While withholding all my > angst against what he allowed to happen in Gujarat in 2002 and the fact that > he shamelessly continues to be blind to the growing hatred against Muslims, > I wonder if the efforts by our activist friends in the US to stop him from > entering that soil mean anything other than a hypocracy. After all, he > continues to live and do what he pleases in India/Gujarat, but we won't > allow him in the US... Isn't that ridiculous? > > Are they trying to teach him a lesson, or punish him through this gesture? > Is his non-entry into the US going to badly affect the Gujaratis' business > and trade (which he is supposed to solemnize in New Jersey)? Not the least, > I think. So what is it then? Is it a symbolic rejection of his leadership? > Or do the NRI and American activist want to show that they care about > Gujarat's Muslims more than the activists in India? > > Although this analogy maybe completely wrong, but I can't help think this: > "We won't allow a germ-infested food that is killing thousands in India to > enter the US".... > Other thoughts are welcome. > > ========== > > USCIRF Urges Denial of U.S. Visa to Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > July 8, 2008 > > Contact: Judith Ingram > Communications Director > (202) 523-3240, ext. 127 > > WASHINGTON - The United States Commission on International Religious > Freedom urges the U.S. State Department to reaffirm its past decision to > deny a tourist visa to Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi, who has been > invited to attend a conference in New Jersey this August celebrating > Gujarati culture. Modi was previously denied entrance to the United States > due to his role in riots that overtook the Indian state of Gujarat from > February to May 2002 in which reportedly as many as 2,000 Muslims were > killed, thousands raped, and over 200,000 displaced. Numerous reports, > including reports of official bodies of the Government of India, have > documented the role of Modi's state government in the planning and execution > of the violence, and the failure to hold perpetrators accountable. > > Following Modi's invitation to attend conferences in the U.S. in 2005, the > Commission successfully urged the State Department to revoke Modi's U.S. > tourist visa. Despite pressure from the Indian government, the State > Department revoked his visa under the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), > which prohibits foreign government officials who are "responsible for or > directly carried out, at any time, particularly severe violations of > religious freedom" from obtaining U.S. visas. This section was added to the > INA by the International Religious Freedom Act of 1998. The Commission once > again urges the State Department to announce Modi's ineligibility for a visa > under the terms of the INA. > > "We have not seen changes that would warrant a policy reversal," said > Commission Chair Felice D. Gaer. "As official bodies of the government of > India have found, Narendra Modi is culpable for the egregious and systematic > human rights abuses wrought against thousands of India's Muslims. Mr. Modi > must demonstrate to the State Department and to the American people why > he-as a person found to have aided and abetted gross violations of human > rights, including religious freedom-should now be eligible for a tourist > visa. > > Following the riots in 2002, India's National Human Rights Commission > issued a report that pointed to the role of Modi's government in the > systematic murder of Muslims and the calculated destruction of Muslim homes > and businesses. In 2003, the Indian central government found corruption and > anti-Muslim bias to be so pervasive in the Gujarat judiciary that riot cases > were shifted for trial to the neighboring state of Maharashtra. Despite > this action, the lack of justice for victims remains a serious concern, as > there have been very few court convictions in the six years since the > religion-based riots. In 2007, a series of articles in the Indian > publication Tehelka documented police officers and government officials on > audio and videotape confessing that they facilitated the violence, at times > at the direct behest of Modi. > > "The inaction of Gujarat's government and police force in the face of > severe violence against religious minorities is an inexcusable abuse of > international human rights obligations," Gaer said. > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Wed Jul 9 22:10:46 2008 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:10:46 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? In-Reply-To: <91290c60807090824m63176a0akd07d3940eeafc904@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <507200.51466.qm@web8403.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Rashmi I know my analogy was stupid, but I was mostly reacting to the report which I quoted about the US State department revoking his visa earlier under the Immigration and Nationality Act, "which prohibits foreign officials who are responsible for or directly carried out, at any time, particularly severe violations of religious freedom from obtaining U.S. visas". Now, why doesn't such a law apply in India, why can't we punish him under similar accusations here. I am sure the US govt is acting in this manner only on the basis of the information provided to it by the Indian state. This is what I can't fathom: we in India continue to accept Modi, vote him to power, allow him to do all that business of shining Gujarat, but we have a problem if he goes to the US (as you say even the people outside the US will be agitated if he enters US). So, why aren't we doing something about him while he shines in Gujarat. Why doesn't the US bomb Gujarat to 'smoke him' out, the way it does to the others it doesn't like. I have my doubts if his non-entry is going to affect the business and trade of the Gujaratis. On the other hand, the rallying for his non-entry by the so-called peace activists only leads to further divide between the NRI saffronites and the secularists. The saffronites will get further motivated to work against the cause of peace. More hate-dollars will pump into India. SF --- On Wed, 9/7/08, Rashmi Sawhney wrote: > From: Rashmi Sawhney > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? > To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Wednesday, 9 July, 2008, 8:54 PM > Dear Fatima, > > Your analogy, I must agree with you, may probably be wrong, > but is certainly > naive and unproductive. A second denial of entry into the > US may be seen > from within Modi camps as being detrimental to his efforts > of furthering the > lie about a vibrant Gujarat. There are enough numbers of > religious > fundamentalists in the Western world who support Modi's > Hindutva ideology, > who may probably not take to the visa refusal kindly. Had > the US granted > Modi entry so many anti Modi individuals and organisations > around the world, > including in India, would be agitaged about this too. > > It is not a question of whether the activists in the US and > NRIs want > to demonstrate that their sympathy for Gujarat's > Muslims is more than > activists in India - I think that is a reductive approach > that defeats the > purpose of a collective anti-Modi struggle. If you want to > campaign against > the USA's discriminatory and hypocritic policies, there > are many other > widely available issues that you could pick on - issues > that affect common > people without any clout or power. > > Most countries have their own 'germ-infested foods' > that are rapidly > destroying any social fabrics composed of difference - > perhaps one could > consider the option of deputing germs-infested foods from > different > societies to other parts of the world to see if they > survive under hostile > and foreign conditions. Or, if your approach to solving the > problem of > Gujarat is to 'export' the germ-infested food, > please consider throwing it > in the sea. > > > > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 3:30 PM, S.Fatima > wrote: > > > Please see the report/appeal below, about another > effort to stop the > > Gujarat CM Narendra Modi from entering the US. While > withholding all my > > angst against what he allowed to happen in Gujarat in > 2002 and the fact that > > he shamelessly continues to be blind to the growing > hatred against Muslims, > > I wonder if the efforts by our activist friends in the > US to stop him from > > entering that soil mean anything other than a > hypocracy. After all, he > > continues to live and do what he pleases in > India/Gujarat, but we won't > > allow him in the US... Isn't that ridiculous? > > > > Are they trying to teach him a lesson, or punish him > through this gesture? > > Is his non-entry into the US going to badly affect the > Gujaratis' business > > and trade (which he is supposed to solemnize in New > Jersey)? Not the least, > > I think. So what is it then? Is it a symbolic > rejection of his leadership? > > Or do the NRI and American activist want to show that > they care about > > Gujarat's Muslims more than the activists in > India? > > > > Although this analogy maybe completely wrong, but I > can't help think this: > > "We won't allow a germ-infested food that is > killing thousands in India to > > enter the US".... > > Other thoughts are welcome. > > > > ========== > > > > USCIRF Urges Denial of U.S. Visa to Gujarat Chief > Minister Narendra Modi > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > July 8, 2008 > > > > Contact: Judith Ingram > > Communications Director > > (202) 523-3240, ext. 127 > > > > WASHINGTON - The United States Commission on > International Religious > > Freedom urges the U.S. State Department to reaffirm > its past decision to > > deny a tourist visa to Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra > Modi, who has been > > invited to attend a conference in New Jersey this > August celebrating > > Gujarati culture. Modi was previously denied entrance > to the United States > > due to his role in riots that overtook the Indian > state of Gujarat from > > February to May 2002 in which reportedly as many as > 2,000 Muslims were > > killed, thousands raped, and over 200,000 displaced. > Numerous reports, > > including reports of official bodies of the Government > of India, have > > documented the role of Modi's state government in > the planning and execution > > of the violence, and the failure to hold perpetrators > accountable. > > > > Following Modi's invitation to attend conferences > in the U.S. in 2005, the > > Commission successfully urged the State Department to > revoke Modi's U.S. > > tourist visa. Despite pressure from the Indian > government, the State > > Department revoked his visa under the Immigration and > Nationality Act (INA), > > which prohibits foreign government officials who are > "responsible for or > > directly carried out, at any time, particularly severe > violations of > > religious freedom" from obtaining U.S. visas. > This section was added to the > > INA by the International Religious Freedom Act of > 1998. The Commission once > > again urges the State Department to announce > Modi's ineligibility for a visa > > under the terms of the INA. > > > > "We have not seen changes that would warrant a > policy reversal," said > > Commission Chair Felice D. Gaer. "As official > bodies of the government of > > India have found, Narendra Modi is culpable for the > egregious and systematic > > human rights abuses wrought against thousands of > India's Muslims. Mr. Modi > > must demonstrate to the State Department and to the > American people why > > he-as a person found to have aided and abetted gross > violations of human > > rights, including religious freedom-should now be > eligible for a tourist > > visa. > > > > Following the riots in 2002, India's National > Human Rights Commission > > issued a report that pointed to the role of Modi's > government in the > > systematic murder of Muslims and the calculated > destruction of Muslim homes > > and businesses. In 2003, the Indian central government > found corruption and > > anti-Muslim bias to be so pervasive in the Gujarat > judiciary that riot cases > > were shifted for trial to the neighboring state of > Maharashtra. Despite > > this action, the lack of justice for victims remains a > serious concern, as > > there have been very few court convictions in the six > years since the > > religion-based riots. In 2007, a series of articles in > the Indian > > publication Tehelka documented police officers and > government officials on > > audio and videotape confessing that they facilitated > the violence, at times > > at the direct behest of Modi. > > > > "The inaction of Gujarat's government and > police force in the face of > > severe violence against religious minorities is an > inexcusable abuse of > > international human rights obligations," Gaer > said. > > > > > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, > on > > > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in..promos.yahoo.com/address From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 22:28:08 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 22:28:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] US-India Nuclear Agreement - Still a Bad Deal Message-ID: <4874EE20.4000300@gmail.com> From: SANSAD As a constituent of US-India Working Group of Abolition 2000, SANSAD is pleased to disseminate this Media Release. Once again, we urge the Canadian government (a member of Board of Governors of the International Atomic Energy Agency, as well as of the Nuclear Suppliers Group) to not support the highly problematic US-India Nuclear Deal. sansad ******************* Media Release July 8, 2008 US-India Nuclear Agreement - Still a Bad Deal: Global Network of NGOs Urge International Community to Oppose The US-India Deal Working Group of Abolition 2000, a global network of over 2000 organizations in more than 90 countries working for a global treaty to eliminate nuclear weapons, says that pressure to rush a decision on the US-India Nuclear Agreement must be resisted. The organizations are calling upon key governments "to play an active role in supporting measures that would ensure this controversial proposal does not: further undermine the nuclear safeguards system and efforts to prevent the proliferation of technologies that may be used to produce nuclear bomb material," or "in any way contribute to the expansion of India's nuclear arsenal." This week, in defiance of opposition from Left Parties on whose support it depends, the Indian government is expected to circulate a draft nuclear Safeguards Agreement to the Board of Governors of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). In doing so, it set in motion the remaining steps required to operationalize the US-India bilateral nuclear agreement (known as the "123 Agreement" after the relevant clause in the US Atomic Energy Act). Besides the Safeguards Agreement, the 45-nation Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) must grant India a special exemption from its nuclear trade guidelines and finally the US Congress must accept the terms of the "123 Agreement". It took two years from the July 2005 Joint Statement by Prime Minister Singh and President Bush until the text of the "123 Agreement" was finalized and nearly a year has elapsed since then. After delaying for so long, the decision at this time by the Indian government to send the draft Safeguards Agreement to the IAEA Board of Governors has more to do with the personal pride of Prime Minister Singh than with any changes in national or international circumstances. It appears that Mr Singh is more concerned about keeping faith with President Bush than the chances that the deal might actually be concluded. Most political commentators, including proponents of the deal within the US government and Congress, believe that the required steps cannot be completed during the life of the Bush Administration. Furthermore, there is no guarantee that the next President will wish to proceed with the deal in its current form. The US-India Nuclear Agreement was a bad deal when it was originally conceived and nothing has changed to redeem it since then. All the problems identified in a letter sent to the NSG and the IAEA by 130 NGOs and experts in January this year still remain. See the following link for the text of and list of signatories of the international letter: _http://cnic.jp/english/topics/plutonium/proliferation/usindiafiles/nsgiaea7jan08.html_ _ _ The deal effectively grants India the privileges of nuclear weapons states (NWS), despite the fact that India developed nuclear weapons outside the NPT regime. It doesn't even require India to accept the same responsibilities as other states: full-scope IAEA safeguards for non-NWS and a commitment from NWS to negotiate in good faith for the elimination of nuclear weapons. The IAEA and NSG must not to be stampeded into making decisions to fit in with an unrealistic political time-table. The 35 countries represented on the IAEA Board of Governors must consider the possibility that special conditions demanded by India could undermine the credibility of the IAEA safeguards system itself. They must also consider whether undertakings made by a government at the fag end of its tenure and facing strong domestic opposition would actually be honored. The NSG must consider the implications for the international non-proliferation regime of granting India a special exemption. These are weighty matters which should not be judged precipitously. The IAEA Board of Governors and the Nuclear Suppliers Group of countries should, as a minimum condition, hold firm to the longstanding international effort to end all production of highly enriched uranium and plutonium to make nuclear weapons. They should insist that the U.S.-India deal be conditioned on an end to further production of fissile materials for weapons purposes in South Asia. Contacts JAPAN (English and Japanese) _Tokyo:_ Philip White, Coordinator, Abolition 2000 US-India Deal Working Group +81-3-3357-3800 _Toyako G8 Summit_: Akira Kawasaki, Peace Boat, 090-8310-5370, kawasaki at peaceboat.gr.jp INDIA: Sukla Sen, National Coordination Committee Member, Coalition for Nuclear Disarmament and Peace +91-22-6553-4377 UNITED STATES: Daryl Kimball, Director, Arms Control Association, +1-202-463-8270 AUSTRALIA - John Hallam PND Nuclear Flashpoints 61-2-9810-2598 61-2-9319-4296 c/- Citizens' Nuclear Information Center, Tokyo, Japan Tel: 81-3-3357-3800 Fax: 81-3-3357-3801 Email 1: white at cnic.jp Web Site: http://cnic.jp/english/topics/plutonium/proliferation/usindia.html From rashmi.sawhney at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 22:36:40 2008 From: rashmi.sawhney at gmail.com (Rashmi Sawhney) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 18:06:40 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? In-Reply-To: <507200.51466.qm@web8403.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <91290c60807090824m63176a0akd07d3940eeafc904@mail.gmail.com> <507200.51466.qm@web8403.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <91290c60807091006n6a8a7699ka9017befe0d0dd6@mail.gmail.com> Dera Fatima, Two brief points: 1. There is a measure of desperation in suggesting that the US should take responsibility for 'smoking out' Modi as they've been doing with individuals and nations they see as being problematic around the world. Although, privately, if they manage to isolate him and do this, I will join in your celebrations. 2. I have a fundamental issue with your point about whether Modi's non/entry is going to affect the business and trade of the people of Gujarat/ of Gujarati origin. The view: Gujarati = Hindu = pro-Modi/pro-Hindutva is problematic and furthers the very image and idea of Gujarat that the BJP have been projecting under Modi's leadership. There are many Gujaratis who are Muslims, Jains, Parsis and Christians, so the alignment of a linguistic community with a religious group is problematic. I will rest my case here, Rashmi On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 5:40 PM, S.Fatima wrote: > Dear Rashmi > I know my analogy was stupid, but I was mostly reacting to the report which > I quoted about the US State department revoking his visa earlier under the > Immigration and Nationality Act, "which prohibits foreign officials who are > responsible for or directly carried out, at any time, particularly severe > violations of religious freedom from obtaining U.S. visas". Now, why doesn't > such a law apply in India, why can't we punish him under similar accusations > here. I am sure the US govt is acting in this manner only on the basis of > the information provided to it by the Indian state. > > This is what I can't fathom: we in India continue to accept Modi, vote him > to power, allow him to do all that business of shining Gujarat, but we have > a problem if he goes to the US (as you say even the people outside the US > will be agitated if he enters US). So, why aren't we doing something about > him while he shines in Gujarat. Why doesn't the US bomb Gujarat to 'smoke > him' out, the way it does to the others it doesn't like. > > I have my doubts if his non-entry is going to affect the business and trade > of the Gujaratis. On the other hand, the rallying for his non-entry by the > so-called peace activists only leads to further divide between the NRI > saffronites and the secularists. The saffronites will get further motivated > to work against the cause of peace. More hate-dollars will pump into India. > > SF > > > --- On Wed, 9/7/08, Rashmi Sawhney wrote: > > > From: Rashmi Sawhney > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? > > To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Wednesday, 9 July, 2008, 8:54 PM > > Dear Fatima, > > > > Your analogy, I must agree with you, may probably be wrong, > > but is certainly > > naive and unproductive. A second denial of entry into the > > US may be seen > > from within Modi camps as being detrimental to his efforts > > of furthering the > > lie about a vibrant Gujarat. There are enough numbers of > > religious > > fundamentalists in the Western world who support Modi's > > Hindutva ideology, > > who may probably not take to the visa refusal kindly. Had > > the US granted > > Modi entry so many anti Modi individuals and organisations > > around the world, > > including in India, would be agitaged about this too. > > > > It is not a question of whether the activists in the US and > > NRIs want > > to demonstrate that their sympathy for Gujarat's > > Muslims is more than > > activists in India - I think that is a reductive approach > > that defeats the > > purpose of a collective anti-Modi struggle. If you want to > > campaign against > > the USA's discriminatory and hypocritic policies, there > > are many other > > widely available issues that you could pick on - issues > > that affect common > > people without any clout or power. > > > > Most countries have their own 'germ-infested foods' > > that are rapidly > > destroying any social fabrics composed of difference - > > perhaps one could > > consider the option of deputing germs-infested foods from > > different > > societies to other parts of the world to see if they > > survive under hostile > > and foreign conditions. Or, if your approach to solving the > > problem of > > Gujarat is to 'export' the germ-infested food, > > please consider throwing it > > in the sea. > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 3:30 PM, S.Fatima > > wrote: > > > > > Please see the report/appeal below, about another > > effort to stop the > > > Gujarat CM Narendra Modi from entering the US. While > > withholding all my > > > angst against what he allowed to happen in Gujarat in > > 2002 and the fact that > > > he shamelessly continues to be blind to the growing > > hatred against Muslims, > > > I wonder if the efforts by our activist friends in the > > US to stop him from > > > entering that soil mean anything other than a > > hypocracy. After all, he > > > continues to live and do what he pleases in > > India/Gujarat, but we won't > > > allow him in the US... Isn't that ridiculous? > > > > > > Are they trying to teach him a lesson, or punish him > > through this gesture? > > > Is his non-entry into the US going to badly affect the > > Gujaratis' business > > > and trade (which he is supposed to solemnize in New > > Jersey)? Not the least, > > > I think. So what is it then? Is it a symbolic > > rejection of his leadership? > > > Or do the NRI and American activist want to show that > > they care about > > > Gujarat's Muslims more than the activists in > > India? > > > > > > Although this analogy maybe completely wrong, but I > > can't help think this: > > > "We won't allow a germ-infested food that is > > killing thousands in India to > > > enter the US".... > > > Other thoughts are welcome. > > > > > > ========== > > > > > > USCIRF Urges Denial of U.S. Visa to Gujarat Chief > > Minister Narendra Modi > > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > July 8, 2008 > > > > > > Contact: Judith Ingram > > > Communications Director > > > (202) 523-3240, ext. 127 > > > > > > WASHINGTON - The United States Commission on > > International Religious > > > Freedom urges the U.S. State Department to reaffirm > > its past decision to > > > deny a tourist visa to Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra > > Modi, who has been > > > invited to attend a conference in New Jersey this > > August celebrating > > > Gujarati culture. Modi was previously denied entrance > > to the United States > > > due to his role in riots that overtook the Indian > > state of Gujarat from > > > February to May 2002 in which reportedly as many as > > 2,000 Muslims were > > > killed, thousands raped, and over 200,000 displaced. > > Numerous reports, > > > including reports of official bodies of the Government > > of India, have > > > documented the role of Modi's state government in > > the planning and execution > > > of the violence, and the failure to hold perpetrators > > accountable. > > > > > > Following Modi's invitation to attend conferences > > in the U.S. in 2005, the > > > Commission successfully urged the State Department to > > revoke Modi's U.S. > > > tourist visa. Despite pressure from the Indian > > government, the State > > > Department revoked his visa under the Immigration and > > Nationality Act (INA), > > > which prohibits foreign government officials who are > > "responsible for or > > > directly carried out, at any time, particularly severe > > violations of > > > religious freedom" from obtaining U.S. visas. > > This section was added to the > > > INA by the International Religious Freedom Act of > > 1998. The Commission once > > > again urges the State Department to announce > > Modi's ineligibility for a visa > > > under the terms of the INA. > > > > > > "We have not seen changes that would warrant a > > policy reversal," said > > > Commission Chair Felice D. Gaer. "As official > > bodies of the government of > > > India have found, Narendra Modi is culpable for the > > egregious and systematic > > > human rights abuses wrought against thousands of > > India's Muslims. Mr. Modi > > > must demonstrate to the State Department and to the > > American people why > > > he-as a person found to have aided and abetted gross > > violations of human > > > rights, including religious freedom-should now be > > eligible for a tourist > > > visa. > > > > > > Following the riots in 2002, India's National > > Human Rights Commission > > > issued a report that pointed to the role of Modi's > > government in the > > > systematic murder of Muslims and the calculated > > destruction of Muslim homes > > > and businesses. In 2003, the Indian central government > > found corruption and > > > anti-Muslim bias to be so pervasive in the Gujarat > > judiciary that riot cases > > > were shifted for trial to the neighboring state of > > Maharashtra. Despite > > > this action, the lack of justice for victims remains a > > serious concern, as > > > there have been very few court convictions in the six > > years since the > > > religion-based riots. In 2007, a series of articles in > > the Indian > > > publication Tehelka documented police officers and > > government officials on > > > audio and videotape confessing that they facilitated > > the violence, at times > > > at the direct behest of Modi. > > > > > > "The inaction of Gujarat's government and > > police force in the face of > > > severe violence against religious minorities is an > > inexcusable abuse of > > > international human rights obligations," Gaer > > said. > > > > > > > > > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, > > on > > > > > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. > Click here http://in..promos.yahoo.com/address > > From pkray11 at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 08:52:53 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:52:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] MIND YOUR LANGUAGE, Mr Amar Singh! Message-ID: <98f331e00807092022g4ba43632w79e8c9a06ae53530@mail.gmail.com> WOMEN BODIES FLAY AMAR SINGH New Delhi, July 9: The leading national women's organisations -- AIDWA, NFIW, GOS, JWP, YWCA and CWDS have jointly issued the following statement: The widely reported remark made by Shri. Amar Singh using sexist language to describe meetings between political leaders, is highly objectionable, condemnable, and unacceptable. He has been reported as using terms like 'suhaagraat' (wedding night) and 'balaatkar' (rape) to refer to the meetings between Ms. Sonia Gandhi, and leaders of other political parties. It is quite shocking that a political leader can make comments in such bad taste about political relationships that involve a prominent woman leader of the country. There are many women in high political office and in the leadership of various parties. Such remarks not only trivialize their role, and insults the concerned individual, but is demeaning to all women. The women's organizations strongly condemn this remark, which is totally unbefitting of a political leader occupying a responsible position. We call upon all democratic organizations and individuals to condemn this kind of verbal abuse. Since the remark referred to has not been denied by Shri. Amar Singh, we demand a retraction, and a public apology. The signatories of statement are: Sudha Sundararaman (All India Democratic Women's Association (AIDWA), Annie Raja (National Federation for Indian Women (NFIW), Mohini Giri (Guild of Service (GOS), Jyotsna Chatterjee Joint Women's Programme (JWP), Kalpana David (Young Women's Christian Association (YWCA), Mary John ( Centre for Women's Development Studies (CWDS). From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Thu Jul 10 08:53:20 2008 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:53:20 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? In-Reply-To: <91290c60807091006n6a8a7699ka9017befe0d0dd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <632184.67678.qm@web8415.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Rashmi Its fine if you wish to rest the case here. But I still think you have been only reacting to my most casual and minor points (such as 'smoking out' or the word Gujarati etc.) My main/original point still remains unanswered: Isn't it hypocritical that we do nothing about Modi in India, and have a problem if he travels to the US? And what difference will it make if he can't go to the US? Does anyone else have an answer to that? F --- On Wed, 9/7/08, Rashmi Sawhney wrote: > From: Rashmi Sawhney > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? > To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Wednesday, 9 July, 2008, 10:36 PM > Dera Fatima, > > Two brief points: > > 1. There is a measure of desperation in suggesting that the > US should take > responsibility for 'smoking out' Modi as > they've been doing with individuals > and nations they see as being problematic around the world. > Although, > privately, if they manage to isolate him and do this, I > will join in your > celebrations. > 2. I have a fundamental issue with your point about whether > Modi's non/entry > is going to affect the business and trade of the people of > Gujarat/ of > Gujarati origin. > The view: Gujarati = Hindu = pro-Modi/pro-Hindutva is > problematic and > furthers the very image and idea of Gujarat that the BJP > have been > projecting under Modi's leadership. There are many > Gujaratis who are > Muslims, Jains, Parsis and Christians, so the alignment of > a linguistic > community with a religious group is problematic. > > I will rest my case here, > > Rashmi > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 5:40 PM, S.Fatima > wrote: > > > Dear Rashmi > > I know my analogy was stupid, but I was mostly > reacting to the report which > > I quoted about the US State department revoking his > visa earlier under the > > Immigration and Nationality Act, "which prohibits > foreign officials who are > > responsible for or directly carried out, at any time, > particularly severe > > violations of religious freedom from obtaining U.S. > visas". Now, why doesn't > > such a law apply in India, why can't we punish him > under similar accusations > > here. I am sure the US govt is acting in this manner > only on the basis of > > the information provided to it by the Indian state. > > > > This is what I can't fathom: we in India continue > to accept Modi, vote him > > to power, allow him to do all that business of shining > Gujarat, but we have > > a problem if he goes to the US (as you say even the > people outside the US > > will be agitated if he enters US). So, why aren't > we doing something about > > him while he shines in Gujarat. Why doesn't the US > bomb Gujarat to 'smoke > > him' out, the way it does to the others it > doesn't like. > > > > I have my doubts if his non-entry is going to affect > the business and trade > > of the Gujaratis. On the other hand, the rallying for > his non-entry by the > > so-called peace activists only leads to further divide > between the NRI > > saffronites and the secularists. The saffronites will > get further motivated > > to work against the cause of peace. More hate-dollars > will pump into India. > > > > SF > > > > > > --- On Wed, 9/7/08, Rashmi Sawhney > wrote: > > > > > From: Rashmi Sawhney > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's > non-entry into US mean anything? > > > To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Date: Wednesday, 9 July, 2008, 8:54 PM > > > Dear Fatima, > > > > > > Your analogy, I must agree with you, may probably > be wrong, > > > but is certainly > > > naive and unproductive. A second denial of entry > into the > > > US may be seen > > > from within Modi camps as being detrimental to > his efforts > > > of furthering the > > > lie about a vibrant Gujarat. There are enough > numbers of > > > religious > > > fundamentalists in the Western world who support > Modi's > > > Hindutva ideology, > > > who may probably not take to the visa refusal > kindly. Had > > > the US granted > > > Modi entry so many anti Modi individuals and > organisations > > > around the world, > > > including in India, would be agitaged about this > too. > > > > > > It is not a question of whether the activists in > the US and > > > NRIs want > > > to demonstrate that their sympathy for > Gujarat's > > > Muslims is more than > > > activists in India - I think that is a reductive > approach > > > that defeats the > > > purpose of a collective anti-Modi struggle. If > you want to > > > campaign against > > > the USA's discriminatory and hypocritic > policies, there > > > are many other > > > widely available issues that you could pick on - > issues > > > that affect common > > > people without any clout or power. > > > > > > Most countries have their own 'germ-infested > foods' > > > that are rapidly > > > destroying any social fabrics composed of > difference - > > > perhaps one could > > > consider the option of deputing germs-infested > foods from > > > different > > > societies to other parts of the world to see if > they > > > survive under hostile > > > and foreign conditions. Or, if your approach to > solving the > > > problem of > > > Gujarat is to 'export' the germ-infested > food, > > > please consider throwing it > > > in the sea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 3:30 PM, S.Fatima > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Please see the report/appeal below, about > another > > > effort to stop the > > > > Gujarat CM Narendra Modi from entering the > US. While > > > withholding all my > > > > angst against what he allowed to happen in > Gujarat in > > > 2002 and the fact that > > > > he shamelessly continues to be blind to the > growing > > > hatred against Muslims, > > > > I wonder if the efforts by our activist > friends in the > > > US to stop him from > > > > entering that soil mean anything other than > a > > > hypocracy. After all, he > > > > continues to live and do what he pleases in > > > India/Gujarat, but we won't > > > > allow him in the US... Isn't that > ridiculous? > > > > > > > > Are they trying to teach him a lesson, or > punish him > > > through this gesture? > > > > Is his non-entry into the US going to badly > affect the > > > Gujaratis' business > > > > and trade (which he is supposed to solemnize > in New > > > Jersey)? Not the least, > > > > I think. So what is it then? Is it a > symbolic > > > rejection of his leadership? > > > > Or do the NRI and American activist want to > show that > > > they care about > > > > Gujarat's Muslims more than the > activists in > > > India? > > > > > > > > Although this analogy maybe completely > wrong, but I > > > can't help think this: > > > > "We won't allow a germ-infested > food that is > > > killing thousands in India to > > > > enter the US".... > > > > Other thoughts are welcome. > > > > > > > > ========== > > > > > > > > USCIRF Urges Denial of U.S. Visa to Gujarat > Chief > > > Minister Narendra Modi > > > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > > July 8, 2008 > > > > > > > > Contact: Judith Ingram > > > > Communications Director > > > > (202) 523-3240, ext. 127 > > > > > > > > WASHINGTON - The United States Commission on > > > International Religious > > > > Freedom urges the U.S. State Department to > reaffirm > > > its past decision to > > > > deny a tourist visa to Gujarat Chief > Minister Narendra > > > Modi, who has been > > > > invited to attend a conference in New Jersey > this > > > August celebrating > > > > Gujarati culture. Modi was previously > denied entrance > > > to the United States > > > > due to his role in riots that overtook the > Indian > > > state of Gujarat from > > > > February to May 2002 in which reportedly as > many as > > > 2,000 Muslims were > > > > killed, thousands raped, and over 200,000 > displaced. > > > Numerous reports, > > > > including reports of official bodies of the > Government > > > of India, have > > > > documented the role of Modi's state > government in > > > the planning and execution > > > > of the violence, and the failure to hold > perpetrators > > > accountable. > > > > > > > > Following Modi's invitation to attend > conferences > > > in the U.S. in 2005, the > > > > Commission successfully urged the State > Department to > > > revoke Modi's U.S. > > > > tourist visa. Despite pressure from the > Indian > > > government, the State > > > > Department revoked his visa under the > Immigration and > > > Nationality Act (INA), > > > > which prohibits foreign government officials > who are > > > "responsible for or > > > > directly carried out, at any time, > particularly severe > > > violations of > > > > religious freedom" from obtaining U.S. > visas. > > > This section was added to the > > > > INA by the International Religious Freedom > Act of > > > 1998. The Commission once > > > > again urges the State Department to announce > > > Modi's ineligibility for a visa > > > > under the terms of the INA. > > > > > > > > "We have not seen changes that would > warrant a > > > policy reversal," said > > > > Commission Chair Felice D. Gaer. "As > official > > > bodies of the government of > > > > India have found, Narendra Modi is culpable > for the > > > egregious and systematic > > > > human rights abuses wrought against > thousands of > > > India's Muslims. Mr. Modi > > > > must demonstrate to the State Department and > to the > > > American people why > > > > he-as a person found to have aided and > abetted gross > > > violations of human > > > > rights, including religious freedom-should > now be > > > eligible for a tourist > > > > visa. > > > > > > > > Following the riots in 2002, India's > National > > > Human Rights Commission > > > > issued a report that pointed to the role of > Modi's > > > government in the > > > > systematic murder of Muslims and the > calculated > > > destruction of Muslim homes > > > > and businesses. In 2003, the Indian central > government > > > found corruption and > > > > anti-Muslim bias to be so pervasive in the > Gujarat > > > judiciary that riot cases > > > > were shifted for trial to the neighboring > state of > > > Maharashtra. Despite > > > > this action, the lack of justice for victims > remains a > > > serious concern, as > > > > there have been very few court convictions > in the six > > > years since the > > > > religion-based riots. In 2007, a series of > articles in > > > the Indian > > > > publication Tehelka documented police > officers and > > > government officials on > > > > audio and videotape confessing that they > facilitated > > > the violence, at times > > > > at the direct behest of Modi. > > > > > > > > "The inaction of Gujarat's > government and > > > police force in the face of > > > > severe violence against religious minorities > is an > > > inexcusable abuse of > > > > international human rights > obligations," Gaer > > > said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. > Get it now, > > > on > > > > > > > > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and the > > > city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or > yourname at rocketmail.com. > > Click here http://in..promos.yahoo.com/address > > > > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From pkray11 at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 09:01:33 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:01:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Stop the Nuke Deal Message-ID: <98f331e00807092031s6ebe0f43k4c91eb711550d279@mail.gmail.com> Dear Friends This is an open letter to the prime minister to scrap the Indo-US nuclear deal signed by religious leaders, leaders of social movements, left activists, journalists and other professionals. Please endorse it. And if possible please forward it to others. AN OPEN LETTER TO THE PRIME MINSTER OF INDIA TO SCRAP THE INDO US NUCLEAR DEAL To Shri Manmohan Singh Prime Minister Dear Prime Minister, We the undersigned demand scrapping of the Indo-US Nuclear Deal with immediate effect. The content of the Deal which is currently being negotiated between India and the US was the first laid out in the joint statement issued by the Prime Minister and the US President on July 18, 2005 from Washington DC and further reiterated on March 2, 2006 in another joint statement by them issued from New Delhi. The signing of the Henry Hyde Act on December 18, 2006 is logical interference of the content of the Act legally making India a junior ally of the US Imperialism confiscating and trunacating our hard earned sovereignty. We therefore demand that the Indo-US Nuclear Deal be scrapped given up with immediate effect and the ongoing talks between IAEA should be called off immediately. The Indo-US Nuclear Deal is patently anti-people, will make India a strategic ally of American Imperialism in South Asia to impose its hegemony over Asia. The Deal also negates the concrete achievements gained by the International and national peace movements for disarmament and Nuclear-free World. After the example of the ruthless genocide, devastation and occupation of Iraq before us, we feel that the Indo-US Nuclear Deal will become an instrument for ruthlessly imposing the neo-liberal economic agenda and pliant regimes over the impoverished people of the Third World and further tightening the hold through the Indo-US Nuclear Deal, US Imperialism will have a firm grip over the governments of the independent nation-states of India and Asia. This makes a mockery of the cherished values of equal and democratic world order and the aspirations of the national liberation struggles including the whole spirit of decolonization. The Indo-US Nuclear Deal is an outrageous instrument of recolonization of India and Third World. The Deal, as and when comes through will, grievously undermine the current global; regime of nuclear non-proliferation, as it is meant to make an unique exception in case of India, in gross violation of underlying principles of the International peace, workers, environment and women's movements. The fact that Pakistan has been brusquely refused a similar deal by the US in spite of persistent clamouring, and Iran is being demonstratively coerced to desist from developing its own nuclear power production allowed and encouraged under article IV of the NPT which further brings out graphically the abominable discriminatory nature of the Deal. The deal is likely to trigger a stepped up vertical and horizontal proliferations all over Asia. This goes against our commitment of Nuclear-free Asia and World. We totally reject the proposition that it will enhance India's energy security and, we categorically assert that nuclear power is prohibitively costly., therefore the Deal will distort India's energy options by diverting resource guzzling, and the intrinsically hazardous and potentially catastrophic, nuclear power at the cost of eco-friendly and many times financially cheaper renewable sources of energy. With the human development index of India and the Third World miserably low, we demand that instead of spending irrationally on nuclear power, expenditures on in health, education, food security, rural and urban employment be enhanced. We want to remind you that India as the leader of the Non- Aligned Movement and as vocal participant in various international forums including the UN, has always committed itself for a Nuclear-free World and abolition of the existing nuclear weapons. In the spirit of the above we want the Government of India to ban the entry of nuclear powered sub marines of the US and other major NATO countries. After six decades of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuclear tragedies, we demand that immediate steps to be taken for a Nuclear-free Asia and the world. The above Indo-US Nuclear Deal will further reinforce the unequal strategic relationship between the US and thereby would add momentum to the US imperialistic project for unfettered global dominance .We reject any ambitions of the Indian ruling classes to act as the a Big Brother in South Asia or to emerge as a global power basking in the reflected glory of global headman and goon. This will not only undermine India's position as a founding and leading member of the Non- Aligned Movement but will seriously undermine prestige of NAM as a whole; of meekly surrendering to the US Imperialism defying the democratic aspirations of the toiling masses of the Third World for a Nuclear-free, just and livable world. Thomas Kochery President, National Fisherman's Forum and NAPM Dr John Dayal President, All India Catholic Union Feroze Mithiborewala Muslim Intellectual Forum Maulwi Farooq Jamat-E-Islami Hind Dr Zafurul Islam Khan Editor-The Milli Gazette New Delhi Gopal Rai Convenor, Teesra Swadhinta Sangram Dunu Roy Hazards Centre, New Delhi Seela Manasweenee Hazards Centre, New Delhi Subhash Lomte National Convener, National campaign Committee for Rural workers Faisal Khan Asha Parivar and NAPM Kavita Krishnan Editor, Liberation Shailendar Social Activist, Delhi Dhananjay Tripathi Ex President, JNU Student's Union Vijay Pratap Convener, Lokayan Babu Lal Sharma Convenor, Global Gandhi Forum Rakesh Bhatt Coordinator, SADED/CSDS Kiran Shaheen Social Activist Chandrika Editor-Dakhal Duniya web magazine Prakash Kumar Ray Film maker and Research Scholar JNU Jeet Bhattacharya Research Scholar JNU Rishika Mehershi Research Scholar JNU Asit Researcher and Social Activist Kumar Sameer Social Activist Peeyush Pant Editor-Lok Samvad From krishnanrr at rediffmail.com Thu Jul 10 11:39:02 2008 From: krishnanrr at rediffmail.com (Radhakrishnan) Date: 10 Jul 2008 06:09:02 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] on Modi's entry into US Message-ID: <20080710060902.3573.qmail@f4mail-234-125.rediffmail.com> Its very amusing to note that faith based organisations in US talk of safeguarding rights of minorities while justifying US aggression in Iraq, dropping of nuclear weapons in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There are some issues which have to be looked into: 1-Can the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom display similar conviction on violation of religious freedom of the Iraqi muslims which is akin to the treatment of Jews in Nazi Germany. 2- Does it cover the investigation of the ethnic cleansing of the native Americans or of the aborgines in Australia by the European colonialists (White Anglo Saxon Protestant social order)or will they also investigate the so called abbretons in Cambodia, Gauntanamo bay and various other inumerable places! 3- Will they be magnanimous enough to own their proclivity to display pro-apartheid values.Their refusal to condemn nor criticize the continuation of Mr.Nelson Mandela's name in the terror list, till recently. 4- The treatment ot national icons like Mohammad Ali and the Rodney King events and the attempts by the the powerful media attacking the origins of Senator Barack Obama merely vindicates that US is a nation in making in terms of evolution of a just social order. Hence its prudent that they work towards the a secular and democratic social order at home. At the same time one need not turn a Nelson's eye to the ongoing communal crisis in India. This would require a broad based coalition of civil groups cutting across religious, ideological and social division. At the same time there is greater need to project that Secularism stays in its place and not highjacked by the faith based NGOs in India and the US which have traditionally displayed selective amenesia in issues concerning violation of Human Rights.Since they are also part of the problem and cannot be accorded the position of the judge and the jury. The killings in Gujarat cannot be justified by any means, hence there is a greater need for stregthening the civil society and making the media, Universities more relevant, which demonstrates and responds in consonance to the emerging scenario. So if we agree for global cooperation to fight violence and defend secularism we can think of helping the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom in reforming itself in shedding its racist image,pro white evalegelical prejudices,anti Islamic biases within the US and outside (Incidently Indian actor Kamal Hassan, was detained and questioned for hours since he has a Muslim sounding name)They could be trained by the National Minority Commission in India, which has people of impecable credentials. One sincerely hopes that the intellectuals display some honesty and not toe pro UNCIRF line just to make some extra money and fre trips to the US,for it is quite evident that some Scholars refuse to take classes in the University and colleges, display anti Dalit sentiments yet are reclaimed by this movement as activists for being anti Modi. Since an oppressor and violator shouldn't be thinking of prosecuting the other. So one may ask whether by taking an anti-Modi stand one could be or should be justifybly exonerated of the crimes that are being committed in other spectrum - hope antiModi stand doesn't become a Ganga to cleanse the sins of the other kind. So its better that we restrain ourselves from falling into the brahminical trap which is embedded everywhere. Radhakrishnan   On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote : >Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > >You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. DNJ piece (Nicholas Ruiz III) > 2. Re: does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? (Rashmi Sawhney) > 3. Re: does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? (S.Fatima) > 4. US-India Nuclear Agreement - Still a Bad Deal (Anivar Aravind) > 5. Re: does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? (Rashmi Sawhney) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:20:34 -0700 (PDT) > From: Nicholas Ruiz III >Subject: [Reader-list] DNJ piece >To: reader-list at sarai.net >Message-ID: <642417.86173.qm at web903.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >Bonjour > >On political uselessness: > >http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/Opinion/Editorials/opnOPN84070908.htm > > > >enjoy. > >NRIII > >Dr. Nicholas Ruiz III >Associate Professor >Department of Humanities, Cultural and Studio Arts >Daytona State College >PO Box 2811 >Daytona Beach, FL 32120-2811 >Editor, Kritikos >http://intertheory.org > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 16:24:26 +0100 > From: "Rashmi Sawhney" >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean > anything? >To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in >Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >Message-ID: > <91290c60807090824m63176a0akd07d3940eeafc904 at mail.gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > >Dear Fatima, > >Your analogy, I must agree with you, may probably be wrong, but is certainly >naive and unproductive. A second denial of entry into the US may be seen > from within Modi camps as being detrimental to his efforts of furthering the >lie about a vibrant Gujarat. There are enough numbers of religious >fundamentalists in the Western world who support Modi's Hindutva ideology, >who may probably not take to the visa refusal kindly. Had the US granted >Modi entry so many anti Modi individuals and organisations around the world, >including in India, would be agitaged about this too. > >It is not a question of whether the activists in the US and NRIs want >to demonstrate that their sympathy for Gujarat's Muslims is more than >activists in India - I think that is a reductive approach that defeats the >purpose of a collective anti-Modi struggle. If you want to campaign against >the USA's discriminatory and hypocritic policies, there are many other >widely available issues that you could pick on - issues that affect common >people without any clout or power. > >Most countries have their own 'germ-infested foods' that are rapidly >destroying any social fabrics composed of difference - perhaps one could >consider the option of deputing germs-infested foods from different >societies to other parts of the world to see if they survive under hostile >and foreign conditions. Or, if your approach to solving the problem of >Gujarat is to 'export' the germ-infested food, please consider throwing it >in the sea. > > > > >On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 3:30 PM, S.Fatima wrote: > > > Please see the report/appeal below, about another effort to stop the > > Gujarat CM Narendra Modi from entering the US. While withholding all my > > angst against what he allowed to happen in Gujarat in 2002 and the fact that > > he shamelessly continues to be blind to the growing hatred against Muslims, > > I wonder if the efforts by our activist friends in the US to stop him from > > entering that soil mean anything other than a hypocracy. After all, he > > continues to live and do what he pleases in India/Gujarat, but we won't > > allow him in the US... Isn't that ridiculous? > > > > Are they trying to teach him a lesson, or punish him through this gesture? > > Is his non-entry into the US going to badly affect the Gujaratis' business > > and trade (which he is supposed to solemnize in New Jersey)? Not the least, > > I think. So what is it then? Is it a symbolic rejection of his leadership? > > Or do the NRI and American activist want to show that they care about > > Gujarat's Muslims more than the activists in India? > > > > Although this analogy maybe completely wrong, but I can't help think this: > > "We won't allow a germ-infested food that is killing thousands in India to > > enter the US".... > > Other thoughts are welcome. > > > > ========== > > > > USCIRF Urges Denial of U.S. Visa to Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > July 8, 2008 > > > > Contact: Judith Ingram > > Communications Director > > (202) 523-3240, ext. 127 > > > > WASHINGTON - The United States Commission on International Religious > > Freedom urges the U.S. State Department to reaffirm its past decision to > > deny a tourist visa to Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi, who has been > > invited to attend a conference in New Jersey this August celebrating > > Gujarati culture. Modi was previously denied entrance to the United States > > due to his role in riots that overtook the Indian state of Gujarat from > > February to May 2002 in which reportedly as many as 2,000 Muslims were > > killed, thousands raped, and over 200,000 displaced. Numerous reports, > > including reports of official bodies of the Government of India, have > > documented the role of Modi's state government in the planning and execution > > of the violence, and the failure to hold perpetrators accountable. > > > > Following Modi's invitation to attend conferences in the U.S. in 2005, the > > Commission successfully urged the State Department to revoke Modi's U.S. > > tourist visa. Despite pressure from the Indian government, the State > > Department revoked his visa under the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), > > which prohibits foreign government officials who are "responsible for or > > directly carried out, at any time, particularly severe violations of > > religious freedom" from obtaining U.S. visas. This section was added to the > > INA by the International Religious Freedom Act of 1998. The Commission once > > again urges the State Department to announce Modi's ineligibility for a visa > > under the terms of the INA. > > > > "We have not seen changes that would warrant a policy reversal," said > > Commission Chair Felice D. Gaer. "As official bodies of the government of > > India have found, Narendra Modi is culpable for the egregious and systematic > > human rights abuses wrought against thousands of India's Muslims. Mr. Modi > > must demonstrate to the State Department and to the American people why > > he-as a person found to have aided and abetted gross violations of human > > rights, including religious freedom-should now be eligible for a tourist > > visa. > > > > Following the riots in 2002, India's National Human Rights Commission > > issued a report that pointed to the role of Modi's government in the > > systematic murder of Muslims and the calculated destruction of Muslim homes > > and businesses. In 2003, the Indian central government found corruption and > > anti-Muslim bias to be so pervasive in the Gujarat judiciary that riot cases > > were shifted for trial to the neighboring state of Maharashtra. Despite > > this action, the lack of justice for victims remains a serious concern, as > > there have been very few court convictions in the six years since the > > religion-based riots. In 2007, a series of articles in the Indian > > publication Tehelka documented police officers and government officials on > > audio and videotape confessing that they facilitated the violence, at times > > at the direct behest of Modi. > > > > "The inaction of Gujarat's government and police force in the face of > > severe violence against religious minorities is an inexcusable abuse of > > international human rights obligations," Gaer said. > > > > > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on > > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:10:46 +0530 (IST) > From: "S.Fatima" >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean > anything? >To: Rashmi Sawhney >Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >Message-ID: <507200.51466.qm at web8403.mail.in.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >Dear Rashmi >I know my analogy was stupid, but I was mostly reacting to the report which I quoted about the US State department revoking his visa earlier under the Immigration and Nationality Act, "which prohibits foreign officials who are responsible for or directly carried out, at any time, particularly severe violations of religious freedom from obtaining U.S. visas". Now, why doesn't such a law apply in India, why can't we punish him under similar accusations here. I am sure the US govt is acting in this manner only on the basis of the information provided to it by the Indian state. > >This is what I can't fathom: we in India continue to accept Modi, vote him to power, allow him to do all that business of shining Gujarat, but we have a problem if he goes to the US (as you say even the people outside the US will be agitated if he enters US). So, why aren't we doing something about him while he shines in Gujarat. Why doesn't the US bomb Gujarat to 'smoke him' out, the way it does to the others it doesn't like. > >I have my doubts if his non-entry is going to affect the business and trade of the Gujaratis. On the other hand, the rallying for his non-entry by the so-called peace activists only leads to further divide between the NRI saffronites and the secularists. The saffronites will get further motivated to work against the cause of peace. More hate-dollars will pump into India. > >SF > > >--- On Wed, 9/7/08, Rashmi Sawhney wrote: > > > From: Rashmi Sawhney > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? > > To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Wednesday, 9 July, 2008, 8:54 PM > > Dear Fatima, > > > > Your analogy, I must agree with you, may probably be wrong, > > but is certainly > > naive and unproductive. A second denial of entry into the > > US may be seen > > from within Modi camps as being detrimental to his efforts > > of furthering the > > lie about a vibrant Gujarat. There are enough numbers of > > religious > > fundamentalists in the Western world who support Modi's > > Hindutva ideology, > > who may probably not take to the visa refusal kindly. Had > > the US granted > > Modi entry so many anti Modi individuals and organisations > > around the world, > > including in India, would be agitaged about this too. > > > > It is not a question of whether the activists in the US and > > NRIs want > > to demonstrate that their sympathy for Gujarat's > > Muslims is more than > > activists in India - I think that is a reductive approach > > that defeats the > > purpose of a collective anti-Modi struggle. If you want to > > campaign against > > the USA's discriminatory and hypocritic policies, there > > are many other > > widely available issues that you could pick on - issues > > that affect common > > people without any clout or power. > > > > Most countries have their own 'germ-infested foods' > > that are rapidly > > destroying any social fabrics composed of difference - > > perhaps one could > > consider the option of deputing germs-infested foods from > > different > > societies to other parts of the world to see if they > > survive under hostile > > and foreign conditions. Or, if your approach to solving the > > problem of > > Gujarat is to 'export' the germ-infested food, > > please consider throwing it > > in the sea. > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 3:30 PM, S.Fatima > > wrote: > > > > > Please see the report/appeal below, about another > > effort to stop the > > > Gujarat CM Narendra Modi from entering the US. While > > withholding all my > > > angst against what he allowed to happen in Gujarat in > > 2002 and the fact that > > > he shamelessly continues to be blind to the growing > > hatred against Muslims, > > > I wonder if the efforts by our activist friends in the > > US to stop him from > > > entering that soil mean anything other than a > > hypocracy. After all, he > > > continues to live and do what he pleases in > > India/Gujarat, but we won't > > > allow him in the US... Isn't that ridiculous? > > > > > > Are they trying to teach him a lesson, or punish him > > through this gesture? > > > Is his non-entry into the US going to badly affect the > > Gujaratis' business > > > and trade (which he is supposed to solemnize in New > > Jersey)? Not the least, > > > I think. So what is it then? Is it a symbolic > > rejection of his leadership? > > > Or do the NRI and American activist want to show that > > they care about > > > Gujarat's Muslims more than the activists in > > India? > > > > > > Although this analogy maybe completely wrong, but I > > can't help think this: > > > "We won't allow a germ-infested food that is > > killing thousands in India to > > > enter the US".... > > > Other thoughts are welcome. > > > > > > ========== > > > > > > USCIRF Urges Denial of U.S. Visa to Gujarat Chief > > Minister Narendra Modi > > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > July 8, 2008 > > > > > > Contact: Judith Ingram > > > Communications Director > > > (202) 523-3240, ext. 127 > > > > > > WASHINGTON - The United States Commission on > > International Religious > > > Freedom urges the U.S. State Department to reaffirm > > its past decision to > > > deny a tourist visa to Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra > > Modi, who has been > > > invited to attend a conference in New Jersey this > > August celebrating > > > Gujarati culture. Modi was previously denied entrance > > to the United States > > > due to his role in riots that overtook the Indian > > state of Gujarat from > > > February to May 2002 in which reportedly as many as > > 2,000 Muslims were > > > killed, thousands raped, and over 200,000 displaced. > > Numerous reports, > > > including reports of official bodies of the Government > > of India, have > > > documented the role of Modi's state government in > > the planning and execution > > > of the violence, and the failure to hold perpetrators > > accountable. > > > > > > Following Modi's invitation to attend conferences > > in the U.S. in 2005, the > > > Commission successfully urged the State Department to > > revoke Modi's U.S. > > > tourist visa. Despite pressure from the Indian > > government, the State > > > Department revoked his visa under the Immigration and > > Nationality Act (INA), > > > which prohibits foreign government officials who are > > "responsible for or > > > directly carried out, at any time, particularly severe > > violations of > > > religious freedom" from obtaining U.S. visas. > > This section was added to the > > > INA by the International Religious Freedom Act of > > 1998. The Commission once > > > again urges the State Department to announce > > Modi's ineligibility for a visa > > > under the terms of the INA. > > > > > > "We have not seen changes that would warrant a > > policy reversal," said > > > Commission Chair Felice D. Gaer. "As official > > bodies of the government of > > > India have found, Narendra Modi is culpable for the > > egregious and systematic > > > human rights abuses wrought against thousands of > > India's Muslims. Mr. Modi > > > must demonstrate to the State Department and to the > > American people why > > > he-as a person found to have aided and abetted gross > > violations of human > > > rights, including religious freedom-should now be > > eligible for a tourist > > > visa. > > > > > > Following the riots in 2002, India's National > > Human Rights Commission > > > issued a report that pointed to the role of Modi's > > government in the > > > systematic murder of Muslims and the calculated > > destruction of Muslim homes > > > and businesses. In 2003, the Indian central government > > found corruption and > > > anti-Muslim bias to be so pervasive in the Gujarat > > judiciary that riot cases > > > were shifted for trial to the neighboring state of > > Maharashtra. Despite > > > this action, the lack of justice for victims remains a > > serious concern, as > > > there have been very few court convictions in the six > > years since the > > > religion-based riots. In 2007, a series of articles in > > the Indian > > > publication Tehelka documented police officers and > > government officials on > > > audio and videotape confessing that they facilitated > > the violence, at times > > > at the direct behest of Modi. > > > > > > "The inaction of Gujarat's government and > > police force in the face of > > > severe violence against religious minorities is an > > inexcusable abuse of > > > international human rights obligations," Gaer > > said. > > > > > > > > > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, > > on > > > > > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in..promos.yahoo.com/address > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 4 >Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 22:28:08 +0530 > From: Anivar Aravind >Subject: [Reader-list] US-India Nuclear Agreement - Still a Bad Deal >To: reader-list at sarai.net, fourth-estate-critique at googlegroups.com >Message-ID: <4874EE20.4000300 at gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed > > > From: SANSAD > >As a constituent of US-India Working Group of Abolition 2000, SANSAD is >pleased to disseminate this Media Release. Once again, we urge the >Canadian government (a member of Board of Governors of the International >Atomic Energy Agency, as well as of the Nuclear Suppliers Group) to not >support the highly problematic US-India Nuclear Deal. > >sansad >******************* > >Media Release >July 8, 2008 > >US-India Nuclear Agreement - Still a Bad Deal: >Global Network of NGOs Urge International Community to Oppose > >The US-India Deal Working Group of Abolition 2000, a global network of >over 2000 organizations in more than 90 countries working for a global >treaty to eliminate nuclear weapons, says that pressure to rush a >decision on the US-India Nuclear Agreement must be resisted. > >The organizations are calling upon key governments "to play an active >role in supporting measures that would ensure this controversial >proposal does not: further undermine the nuclear safeguards system and >efforts to prevent the proliferation of technologies that may be used to >produce nuclear bomb material," or "in any way contribute to the >expansion of India's nuclear arsenal." > >This week, in defiance of opposition from Left Parties on whose support >it depends, the Indian government is expected to circulate a draft >nuclear Safeguards Agreement to the Board of Governors of the >International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). In doing so, it set in motion >the remaining steps required to operationalize the US-India bilateral >nuclear agreement (known as the "123 Agreement" after the relevant >clause in the US Atomic Energy Act). Besides the Safeguards Agreement, >the 45-nation Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) must grant India a special >exemption from its nuclear trade guidelines and finally the US Congress >must accept the terms of the "123 Agreement". > >It took two years from the July 2005 Joint Statement by Prime Minister >Singh and President Bush until the text of the "123 Agreement" was >finalized and nearly a year has elapsed since then. After delaying for >so long, the decision at this time by the Indian government to send the >draft Safeguards Agreement to the IAEA Board of Governors has more to do >with the personal pride of Prime Minister Singh than with any changes in >national or international circumstances. It appears that Mr Singh is >more concerned about keeping faith with President Bush than the chances >that the deal might actually be concluded. Most political commentators, >including proponents of the deal within the US government and Congress, >believe that the required steps cannot be completed during the life of >the Bush Administration. Furthermore, there is no guarantee that the >next President will wish to proceed with the deal in its current form. > >The US-India Nuclear Agreement was a bad deal when it was originally >conceived and nothing has changed to redeem it since then. All the >problems identified in a letter sent to the NSG and the IAEA by 130 NGOs >and experts in January this year still remain. See the following link >for the text of and list of signatories of the international letter: > >_http://cnic.jp/english/topics/plutonium/proliferation/usindiafiles/nsgiaea7jan08.html_ >_ >_ >The deal effectively grants India the privileges of nuclear weapons >states (NWS), despite the fact that India developed nuclear weapons >outside the NPT regime. It doesn't even require India to accept the same >responsibilities as other states: full-scope IAEA safeguards for non-NWS >and a commitment from NWS to negotiate in good faith for the elimination >of nuclear weapons. > >The IAEA and NSG must not to be stampeded into making decisions to fit >in with an unrealistic political time-table. The 35 countries >represented on the IAEA Board of Governors must consider the possibility >that special conditions demanded by India could undermine the >credibility of the IAEA safeguards system itself. They must also >consider whether undertakings made by a government at the fag end of its >tenure and facing strong domestic opposition would actually be honored. >The NSG must consider the implications for the international >non-proliferation regime of granting India a special exemption. These >are weighty matters which should not be judged precipitously. > >The IAEA Board of Governors and the Nuclear Suppliers Group of countries >should, as a minimum condition, hold firm to the longstanding >international effort to end all production of highly enriched uranium >and plutonium to make nuclear weapons. They should insist that the >U.S.-India deal be conditioned on an end to further production of >fissile materials for weapons purposes in South Asia. > >Contacts >JAPAN (English and Japanese) >_Tokyo:_ Philip White, Coordinator, Abolition 2000 US-India Deal Working >Group +81-3-3357-3800 >_Toyako G8 Summit_: Akira Kawasaki, Peace Boat, 090-8310-5370, >kawasaki at peaceboat.gr.jp >INDIA: Sukla Sen, National Coordination Committee Member, Coalition for >Nuclear Disarmament and Peace +91-22-6553-4377 >UNITED STATES: Daryl Kimball, Director, Arms Control Association, >+1-202-463-8270 >AUSTRALIA - John Hallam PND Nuclear Flashpoints 61-2-9810-2598 >61-2-9319-4296 > >c/- Citizens' Nuclear Information Center, Tokyo, Japan >Tel: 81-3-3357-3800 Fax: 81-3-3357-3801 Email 1: white at cnic.jp >Web Site: http://cnic.jp/english/topics/plutonium/proliferation/usindia.html > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 5 >Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 18:06:40 +0100 > From: "Rashmi Sawhney" >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean > anything? >To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in >Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >Message-ID: > <91290c60807091006n6a8a7699ka9017befe0d0dd6 at mail.gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > >Dera Fatima, > >Two brief points: > >1. There is a measure of desperation in suggesting that the US should take >responsibility for 'smoking out' Modi as they've been doing with individuals >and nations they see as being problematic around the world. Although, >privately, if they manage to isolate him and do this, I will join in your >celebrations. >2. I have a fundamental issue with your point about whether Modi's non/entry >is going to affect the business and trade of the people of Gujarat/ of >Gujarati origin. >The view: Gujarati = Hindu = pro-Modi/pro-Hindutva is problematic and >furthers the very image and idea of Gujarat that the BJP have been >projecting under Modi's leadership. There are many Gujaratis who are >Muslims, Jains, Parsis and Christians, so the alignment of a linguistic >community with a religious group is problematic. > >I will rest my case here, > >Rashmi > >On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 5:40 PM, S.Fatima wrote: > > > Dear Rashmi > > I know my analogy was stupid, but I was mostly reacting to the report which > > I quoted about the US State department revoking his visa earlier under the > > Immigration and Nationality Act, "which prohibits foreign officials who are > > responsible for or directly carried out, at any time, particularly severe > > violations of religious freedom from obtaining U.S. visas". Now, why doesn't > > such a law apply in India, why can't we punish him under similar accusations > > here. I am sure the US govt is acting in this manner only on the basis of > > the information provided to it by the Indian state. > > > > This is what I can't fathom: we in India continue to accept Modi, vote him > > to power, allow him to do all that business of shining Gujarat, but we have > > a problem if he goes to the US (as you say even the people outside the US > > will be agitated if he enters US). So, why aren't we doing something about > > him while he shines in Gujarat. Why doesn't the US bomb Gujarat to 'smoke > > him' out, the way it does to the others it doesn't like. > > > > I have my doubts if his non-entry is going to affect the business and trade > > of the Gujaratis. On the other hand, the rallying for his non-entry by the > > so-called peace activists only leads to further divide between the NRI > > saffronites and the secularists. The saffronites will get further motivated > > to work against the cause of peace. More hate-dollars will pump into India. > > > > SF > > > > > > --- On Wed, 9/7/08, Rashmi Sawhney wrote: > > > > > From: Rashmi Sawhney > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? > > > To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Date: Wednesday, 9 July, 2008, 8:54 PM > > > Dear Fatima, > > > > > > Your analogy, I must agree with you, may probably be wrong, > > > but is certainly > > > naive and unproductive. A second denial of entry into the > > > US may be seen > > > from within Modi camps as being detrimental to his efforts > > > of furthering the > > > lie about a vibrant Gujarat. There are enough numbers of > > > religious > > > fundamentalists in the Western world who support Modi's > > > Hindutva ideology, > > > who may probably not take to the visa refusal kindly. Had > > > the US granted > > > Modi entry so many anti Modi individuals and organisations > > > around the world, > > > including in India, would be agitaged about this too. > > > > > > It is not a question of whether the activists in the US and > > > NRIs want > > > to demonstrate that their sympathy for Gujarat's > > > Muslims is more than > > > activists in India - I think that is a reductive approach > > > that defeats the > > > purpose of a collective anti-Modi struggle. If you want to > > > campaign against > > > the USA's discriminatory and hypocritic policies, there > > > are many other > > > widely available issues that you could pick on - issues > > > that affect common > > > people without any clout or power. > > > > > > Most countries have their own 'germ-infested foods' > > > that are rapidly > > > destroying any social fabrics composed of difference - > > > perhaps one could > > > consider the option of deputing germs-infested foods from > > > different > > > societies to other parts of the world to see if they > > > survive under hostile > > > and foreign conditions. Or, if your approach to solving the > > > problem of > > > Gujarat is to 'export' the germ-infested food, > > > please consider throwing it > > > in the sea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 3:30 PM, S.Fatima > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Please see the report/appeal below, about another > > > effort to stop the > > > > Gujarat CM Narendra Modi from entering the US. While > > > withholding all my > > > > angst against what he allowed to happen in Gujarat in > > > 2002 and the fact that > > > > he shamelessly continues to be blind to the growing > > > hatred against Muslims, > > > > I wonder if the efforts by our activist friends in the > > > US to stop him from > > > > entering that soil mean anything other than a > > > hypocracy. After all, he > > > > continues to live and do what he pleases in > > > India/Gujarat, but we won't > > > > allow him in the US... Isn't that ridiculous? > > > > > > > > Are they trying to teach him a lesson, or punish him > > > through this gesture? > > > > Is his non-entry into the US going to badly affect the > > > Gujaratis' business > > > > and trade (which he is supposed to solemnize in New > > > Jersey)? Not the least, > > > > I think. So what is it then? Is it a symbolic > > > rejection of his leadership? > > > > Or do the NRI and American activist want to show that > > > they care about > > > > Gujarat's Muslims more than the activists in > > > India? > > > > > > > > Although this analogy maybe completely wrong, but I > > > can't help think this: > > > > "We won't allow a germ-infested food that is > > > killing thousands in India to > > > > enter the US".... > > > > Other thoughts are welcome. > > > > > > > > ========== > > > > > > > > USCIRF Urges Denial of U.S. Visa to Gujarat Chief > > > Minister Narendra Modi > > > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > > July 8, 2008 > > > > > > > > Contact: Judith Ingram > > > > Communications Director > > > > (202) 523-3240, ext. 127 > > > > > > > > WASHINGTON - The United States Commission on > > > International Religious > > > > Freedom urges the U.S. State Department to reaffirm > > > its past decision to > > > > deny a tourist visa to Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra > > > Modi, who has been > > > > invited to attend a conference in New Jersey this > > > August celebrating > > > > Gujarati culture. Modi was previously denied entrance > > > to the United States > > > > due to his role in riots that overtook the Indian > > > state of Gujarat from > > > > February to May 2002 in which reportedly as many as > > > 2,000 Muslims were > > > > killed, thousands raped, and over 200,000 displaced. > > > Numerous reports, > > > > including reports of official bodies of the Government > > > of India, have > > > > documented the role of Modi's state government in > > > the planning and execution > > > > of the violence, and the failure to hold perpetrators > > > accountable. > > > > > > > > Following Modi's invitation to attend conferences > > > in the U.S. in 2005, the > > > > Commission successfully urged the State Department to > > > revoke Modi's U.S. > > > > tourist visa. Despite pressure from the Indian > > > government, the State > > > > Department revoked his visa under the Immigration and > > > Nationality Act (INA), > > > > which prohibits foreign government officials who are > > > "responsible for or > > > > directly carried out, at any time, particularly severe > > > violations of > > > > religious freedom" from obtaining U.S. visas. > > > This section was added to the > > > > INA by the International Religious Freedom Act of > > > 1998. The Commission once > > > > again urges the State Department to announce > > > Modi's ineligibility for a visa > > > > under the terms of the INA. > > > > > > > > "We have not seen changes that would warrant a > > > policy reversal," said > > > > Commission Chair Felice D. Gaer. "As official > > > bodies of the government of > > > > India have found, Narendra Modi is culpable for the > > > egregious and systematic > > > > human rights abuses wrought against thousands of > > > India's Muslims. Mr. Modi > > > > must demonstrate to the State Department and to the > > > American people why > > > > he-as a person found to have aided and abetted gross > > > violations of human > > > > rights, including religious freedom-should now be > > > eligible for a tourist > > > > visa. > > > > > > > > Following the riots in 2002, India's National > > > Human Rights Commission > > > > issued a report that pointed to the role of Modi's > > > government in the > > > > systematic murder of Muslims and the calculated > > > destruction of Muslim homes > > > > and businesses. In 2003, the Indian central government > > > found corruption and > > > > anti-Muslim bias to be so pervasive in the Gujarat > > > judiciary that riot cases > > > > were shifted for trial to the neighboring state of > > > Maharashtra. Despite > > > > this action, the lack of justice for victims remains a > > > serious concern, as > > > > there have been very few court convictions in the six > > > years since the > > > > religion-based riots. In 2007, a series of articles in > > > the Indian > > > > publication Tehelka documented police officers and > > > government officials on > > > > audio and videotape confessing that they facilitated > > > the violence, at times > > > > at the direct behest of Modi. > > > > > > > > "The inaction of Gujarat's government and > > > police force in the face of > > > > severe violence against religious minorities is an > > > inexcusable abuse of > > > > international human rights obligations," Gaer > > > said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, > > > on > > > > > > > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > > city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. > > Click here http://in..promos.yahoo.com/address > > > > > > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >reader-list mailing list >reader-list at sarai.net >https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >End of reader-list Digest, Vol 60, Issue 76 >******************************************* Cell - 9818063517 From debjani62 at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 10:34:15 2008 From: debjani62 at gmail.com (Debjani Sengupta) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:34:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] cybercrimes et al Message-ID: <861149e00807092204j70aef6dbi554a1dd6783ed20e@mail.gmail.com> yesterday, i woke up to a scamster's world. i received calls from friends all over that they have received mail from my email id asking for money as i was stranded in the UK. some of them were alarmed and called me. others were more net savvy and deleted the mail. when i asked them about it they said they knew that i couldnt write a mail that was so poor in english and second, the mail was too hysterical. one friend said he thought it was a student of mine playing a prank! god forbid! but yesterday, was a new day for me. i was born again... my old yahoo mail id was hacked into and i want to share this experience so that people like me who are still grappling with so much new on cyberspace may take heed. i had received a mail from Yahoo customer care asking me to verify my pass word; without checking i answered the mail and of course, all hell broke loose. the lesson that i learnt was never, ever give out your password even if the President or God asked for it. The second lesson that i learnt was never ever trust an email id, behind it may hide a Joker, a Prankster, a Fraud, a Madman, a Hacker, a Psychopath,a Delinquent, a Misnomer, a Gangbuster, a Mailman, a Sick Person, a Cyber Geek, a Carpetbagger, a Republican, a Fundamentalist, and the list goes on and on.... yesterday's experience was in many ways a lesson in good manners, something that we are increasingly foregoing. i had calls from so many people, some laughed outright at my predicament ( i could not access my yahoo mail id and all my contacts were lost, years of hard work and building up trust), others sniggered at my idiocy, and many others reiterated their love and friendship for me. i was born anew. i had to create a new mail id and painfully try to get my contact ids together. most imporatant of all,i had to call many whom i only knew through work and assure them of my integrity. it is something i will have to do for months to come but i will do it. whoever hacks into personal mails like this is sick. but what they do not realize how much suffering they cause with one little flick of their finger. From khurramparvez at yahoo.com Thu Jul 10 14:10:00 2008 From: khurramparvez at yahoo.com (Khurram Parvez) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 01:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Indian Kashmir Message-ID: <430165.49542.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A PDF of the article with photos can be found on the Tribunal website at: http://kashmirprocess.org/news/20080708_MassGravesKashmirChatterji.pdf Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Indian Kashmir Etala'at, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar, 09 July 2008 http://etalaat.com/english/Dimensions/1531.html Dirt, rubble, thick grass, hillside and flatland, crowded with graves. Signifiers of military and paramilitary terror, masked from the world. Constructed by institutions of state to conceal massacre. Placed next to homes, fields, schools, an army practise range. Unknown, unmarked. Over 940 graves in a segment of Baramulla district alone. Some containing more than one cadaver. Dug by locals, coerced by the police, on village land. Bodies dragged through the night, some tortured, burnt, desecrated. Circulating mythology claims these graves uniformly house 'foreign militants'. Exhumation and identification have not occurred in most cases. When undertaken, in sizable instances, records prove the dead to be local people, ordinary citizens, killed in fake encounters. In instances where bodies have been identified as local, non-militant and militant, it demystifies state rhetoric that rumours these persons to be 'foreign militants', propagating misrepresentation that the demand for self-determination is prevailingly external. Mourned, cared for, by locals, as 'farz'/duty, as part of an obligation, stated repeatedly, to 'azadi'. 'Azadi'/freedom to determine self and future. On 18 and 20 June, the International People's Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice in Indian-administered Kashmir ('Tribunal', convened in April 2008, www.kashmirprocess.org) visited Baramulla and Kupwara district to conduct ongoing fact-finding and verification related to mass graves at the behest of local communities. The team comprised of Tribunal Conveners Advocate Parvez Imroz and myself, a staff member, and camera crew. On 18 June, we visited Raja Mohalla in Uri, Baramulla district, 110 kilometres from Srinagar, where 22 graves were constructed between 1996-1997. Then to Quazipora, where 13 bodies were stated as buried in seven graves in 1991. Then we travelled to Chehal, Bimyar village, Uri, holding 235 graves. We re-met Atta Mohammad, gravedigger and caretaker at Chehal, who testified that these bodies, brought by the police, primarily after dark, were buried between 2002-2006. Atta Mohammad said that the bodies appear in his nightmares, each in graphic, gruesome detail. Terrorised by the task forced upon him, his nights are bereft of sleep. Then we travelled to Mir Mohalla, Kichama, Sheeri, to the main graveyard with 105 graves, stated to hold about 225-250 bodies, buried between 1994-2003, and a smaller graveyard, with nine graves, adjacent to a sign proclaiming it a 'Model Village'. On 20 June, we visited the northern district of Kupwara. On the way we witnessed army convoys, including one of 21+ vehicles. Created in 1979 through the forking of Baramulla district, approximately 5,000 feet above sea level, Kupwara borders the Line-of-Control to the north and west. Between Shamsbari and Pirpanchal mountain ranges, it is one of the most heavily militarised zones, about 95 kilometres from Srinagar. Kupwara houses six army camps, as military and paramilitary forces occupy significant land. Seven interrogation centres have been operational with police stations functioning as additional interrogation cells. In Hundwara town, a watchtower surveils and regulates movement. In Kupwara, we visited Trehgam village, holding 85-100 graves, 24 of which are identified, and spoke with community members. Trehgam was home to Maqbool Bhat (b. 1938), founding figure of the Jammu Kashmir National Liberation Front. Acknowledged as Shaheed-e-Kashmir, Bhat is labelled a 'terrorist' by certain segments of India. He sought to unite the territories of the former princely state of Jammu and Kashmir into a secular, sovereign, democratic state. Bhat was sentenced to death by the Supreme Court of India and hanged in Tihar jail in New Delhi on 11 February 1984. Maqbool Bhat's nephew, Parvaiz Ahmad Bhat, reminded us that Habibullah Bhat, Bhat's brother, was the first case of enforced disappearance before 1989. After Trehgam, we reached Regipora around 3 pm and stopped for lunch. There, two persons introduced themselves as Special Branch Kashmir (SBK) and Counter Intelligence Kashmir (CIK) personnel, and questioned the Tribunal staff member about our visit. After responding, we proceeded to the 'martyrs' graveyard' holding 258 graves, constructed in 1995. This burial ground is meticulously ordered, each grave numbered. The body of a 20-25 year old youth was buried in the first week of June, reportedly killed in an encounter in Bamhama village. We stopped at a roadside tea stall to speak with local people about the graves. Four intelligence personnel questioned us, asking we disclose information about those we had visited. Soon, four additional SBK and CIK personnel joined the questioning. Other intelligence personnel made phone calls. By then, about 12 intelligence personnel gathered. Following further questioning we proceeded toward Srinagar. A car followed at a distance. We detoured to Sadipora, Kandi, where locals stated that around 20 bodies were buried. The graveyard, overrun with wild flowers, is part of a larger ground used during festivals, including Id. Two of four bodies, killed in a fake encounter on 29 April 2007, were exhumed, identified as locals, contrary to police records stating them to be 'Pakistani terrorists'. Saidipora holds Riyaz Ahmad Bhat's grave, killed in the encounter, age 19. Police records, per the First Information Report, declared him a 'Pakistani terrorist'. Riyaz Bhat was identified by Javeed Ahmed, his brother, as a resident of Kalashpora, Srinagar, based on police photographs from the time of death. Ahmed travelled with the Tribunal to take us to his brother's grave. On his knees Javeed attempted to clear the thick brush. Later, in Srinagar, he testified that Bhat had never been involved in militancy. Javeed spoke of grieving, of imprisonment and beatings at the police station. He asked how he could have saved his brother from death. After Sadiapora, we were stopped at Shangargund, Sopore, at about 6.40 pm, by three persons in civilian clothing. They forcibly boarded the car. We were ordered to the Sopore Police Station. There we were asked to detail our identity, employment, the purpose of the visit, and to hand over tapes which, the police alleged, contained 'dangerous' and 'objectionable' material. We stated that the Tribunal, a public process, was undertaking its work peaceably, lawfully, with informed consent, and that we had not visited restricted areas. We stated that the police had no lawful reason to seize the tapes. We were detained for 16 minutes. After several calls to senior police persons, we were released. A red Indica car followed us to Sangrama. At Srinagar, Intelligence personnel were stationed at my hotel. On 21 June, I was followed from the hotel to the Tribunal's office in Lal Chowk, where about 8 personnel were stationed the entire day questioning anyone who entered or left the office. My mother, residing in Calcutta, received a query regarding my whereabouts from the District Magistrate's Office. I was followed to the Srinagar airport on 22 June, and questioned, asked if I possessed dual citizenship. I do not. I am a citizen of India and a permanent resident of the United States. On 24 June, I arrived in Bhubaneswar to submit a statement to the Commission of Inquiry on the Kandhamal violence against Christians in 2007 in Orissa. There too, Central Intelligence officials persistently inquired after me. In April, after announcing the Tribunal, I was stopped and harassed at Immigration while leaving India for the United States, and again on my re-entry in June. The targeting of the Tribunal has not abated since the Amarnath issue erupted around 23 June. The volatile proposal to transfer 800 kanals of land to the Shrine Board, revoked on 01 July, was supported by the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party and Hindu militant Shiv Sena. Despite the Sena's recent call to Hindus to form suicide squads, it faces no sanctions from the state. Kashmiris of diverse ethnicities and religions dissented the Amarnath land transfer. Community leaders in Kashmir explained that their stance against the proposal is not in dissent to Hindu pilgrims, but a repressive state. During the Amarnath land transfer protests, civil disobedience paralleled that of 1989, amid severe repression. On 30 June, in curfew-like conditions, we met with two families in Srinagar who narrated that the police had shot dead their sons. At one place, in the old city, while the men took the body for burial late at night, the police returned and destroyed property and molested women. On 30 June, at about 10:10 pm, Parvez Imroz and his family were attacked at home by state forces, who fired three shots and hurled a grenade while exiting when family and community interrupted their attempts. Neighbours reported seeing one large armoured vehicle and two Gypsy cars, and men in CRPF (Central Reserve Police Force) and SOG (Special Operations Group) uniforms. This murder attempt is an escalation in the forms of state-led intimidation and targeting aimed at Advocate Imroz. It is an attempt to make the Tribunal vulnerable and instil fear in us in an attempt to stop this process. On 01 July, we met at Khurram Parvez's home before addressing a press conference. Outside, jeeps with plainclothes men continued their observation, accompanied by a jeep with armed men in uniform. Later, Advocate Imroz, Khurram Parvez, Advocate Mihir Desai, and I went to the police station to lodge a First Information Report. We were not permitted to do so. For security reasons, Parvez Imroz is not staying at home. Khurram Parvez remains under surveillance. I must allow for distance before revisiting the graves. On 04 July, sitting on a plane at Delhi International Airport, waiting to take-off, I received a phone call on my India mobile, caller 'Unknown': "Madam, we know you're leaving. Think wisely before coming back". Orders to unnerve the leadership of the International Tribunal by the Government of India's intelligence and security administration appear to be generated at the highest levels. The general policy of surveillance should not be used as a pretext to create obstacles for our work. As India argues for a seat on the United Nations Security Council, the Government of India, as 'Frontline Defenders' stated in their recent alert supporting the Tribunal, must adhere to its own repeated commitment to peace in Kashmir and international conventions and laws. It must uphold democratic governance and safeguard human rights. Advocate Imroz, Khurram Parvez, other members of the Tribunal team, have long experienced injustices for their extraordinary work as human rights defenders. A lauded human rights lawyer, Parvez Imroz has survived two, now three, assassination attempts, the first from militants. Since 2005, his passport has been denied. Khurram Parvez lost his leg in a landmine incident. Gautam Navlakha and Zahir-Ud-Din have been intimidated and threatened, as has Mihir Desai, in their larger work. It is noteworthy that the Government of India is adding intimidation to the death and rape threats delivered me by Hindu extremists for human rights work. The work of the Tribunal is an act of conscience and accountability, fraught with the charge of complex and violent histories. Its mandate, in documenting Kashmir's present, is to chronicle the fabric of militarisation, status of human rights, and legal, political, militaristic 'states of exception'. The Tribunal's work will continue through the coming months. We have received extensive solidarity from civil society; victims/survivors, at street corners, from villagers, ordinary citizens, those committed to justice. Each life in Kashmir has a story to tell. The subjugation of civil society has produced magnificent ethical resistance. The state cannot combat every individual. Nearly two decades of genocidal violence record 70,000+ dead, 8,000+ disappeared, 60,000+ tortured, 50,000+ orphaned, incalculable sexualised and gendered violence, a very high rate of people with suicidal behaviours; hundreds of thousands displaced; violations of promises, laws, conventions, agreements, treaties; mass graves; mile upon mile of barbed wire; fear, suppression of varied demands for participation to determine Kashmir's future, spirals of violence, protracted silence. Last year, Kashmir's only hospital with services for mental health received 68,000 patients. Profound social, economic, and psychological consequences, and an intense isolation have impacted private, public, and everyday life. It has generated brutal resistance on the part of groups that have engaged in violent militancy. Repressions of struggles for self-determination and international policies/politics have yielded severe consequences, creating a juncture at which the failure of governance intersects with a culture of grief. Torture survivors, non-militants and former militants, that I met with testified to the sadism of the forces. Reportedly, a man, hung upside down, had petrol injected through his anus. Water-boarding, mutilation, rape of women, children, and men, starvation, psychological torture. Brutalised, 'healed', to be brutalised again. An eagle tattoo on the arm of a man was reportedly identified by an army officer as a symbol of Pakistan-held Azad Kashmir, even as the man clarified the tattoo was from his childhood. The skin containing it was burned. The officer, the man stated, said: "When you look at this, think of azadi". A mother, reportedly asked to watch her daughter's rape by army personnel, pleaded for her release. They refused. She pleaded that she could not watch, asking to be sent out of the room or be killed. We were told that the soldier pointed a gun to her forehead, stating he would grant her wish, and shot her before they proceeded to rape the daughter. We also spoke with persons violated by militants. One man stated that people's experiences with the reprehensible atrocities of militancy do not imply the abdication of their desire for self-determination. This, he stated, is a mistake the state makes, conflating militancy with the intent for self-determination. He clarified that neither is self-determination an indication of allegiance to Pakistan, largely to the contrary. The continuing and daunting presence of military and paramilitary forces, increased and sophisticated surveillance, merges with pervasive and immense suffering and anger of people in villages, towns, and cities across Kashmir. Parallel to the presence of 500,000 troops and commitment to nuclearisation, official figures state that there are about 450 militants in Kashmir and that demilitarisation is underway. In March 2007, three government committees on demilitarisation resolved that the 'low intensity war continues', placing in limbo troop reduction and the repealment of draconian laws -- the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, 1958, imposed in Jammu and Kashmir in December 1990, and the Disturbed Areas Act, 1976, enacted in 1992. Local realities reflect that these laws and the military seek to control the general population with impunity. Kashmir is increasingly defined as a 'post-conflict' zone. 'Post-conflict' is not the propagation of tourism toward an overt display of nationalism. Post-conflict is a space in which to heal, reflect, and enable civil society participation in determining peace and justice. The graves speak to those that listen. Those haunted by history are called to remember. (Dr. Angana Chatterji is associate professor of Social and Cultural Anthropology at the California Institute of Integral Studies and co-convener of the International People's Tribunal in Kashmir.) From rana at ranadasgupta.com Thu Jul 10 18:50:08 2008 From: rana at ranadasgupta.com (Rana Dasgupta) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 15:20:08 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] german translations Message-ID: <48760C88.30801@ranadasgupta.com> have we found another translator? R From ravikant at sarai.net Thu Jul 10 19:14:08 2008 From: ravikant at sarai.net (Ravikant) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 19:14:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Lives of Others: now showing in Delhi Message-ID: <200807101914.08889.ravikant@sarai.net> FYI. Apologies for x-posting. ravikant The Lives of Others is releasing in Delhi on 11th July, 2008 at the following theaters and show times PVR SAKET       DELHI   1       11.40 PM PVR SAKET (SELECT)      DELHI   1       04.40 PM ADLABS  NOIDA   1       03.45 PM PVR AMBEINCE    GURGAON 1       10.45 PM PVR EUROPA      GURGAON 1       04.00 PM *Synopsis:* The script won over some of Germany's best actors & technicians. Including Martina Gedeck  ("The Elementary Particles," "Mostly Martha"), Ulrich Mühe ("Funny Games," "Amen"),  cinematographer Hagen Bogdanski ( "No Place to Go") and editor  Patricia Rommel  ("Nowhere in Africa"). The music was composed by Oscar winner Gabriel Yared  ("The Talented Mr. Ripley," "The English Patient") and Stéphane Moucha. In contrast to light-hearted films about East Germany like "Good Bye Lenin!" and "Sun Alley", The Lives of Others ventures off the beaten track and tells  its story without compromise and  with great inner truthfulness. A story from the heart of the East-German regime, it is an intensely gripping thriller and a  moving love story. Five years before its downfall, the former East-German government (DDR) ensured its claim to  power with a ruthless system of control and surveillance. Party-loyalist Captain Gerd Wiesler hopes to boost his career when given the job of collecting evidence against the playwright Georg Dreyman and his girlfriend, the celebrated theater actress Christa-Maria Sieland. But this immersion in The Lives of Others – in love, literature, free thinking and speech – makes Wiesler acutely aware of the meagerness of his own existence and opens to him a completely new way of life which he has ever more trouble resisting. But the system, once started, cannot be stopped. A dangerous game has begun... THE LIVES OF OTHERS is extraordinary, for it relates a story, about a system which is both corrupt and corrupting from deep within the heart of the GDR, uncompromisingly and with unstinting truthfulness. *Awards:* Academy Award 2007 (Oscar)                                       BAFTA  2008 Best Foreign Language Film                                     Best non English Language Film Film Independent's Spirit Awards 2007                          Golden Globe Nomination 2007 Best Foreign Film                                                                 Best Foreign Language Film Los Angeles Film Critics' Association Awards 2006      Locarno 2006 Best Foreign Language Film Audience Choice Award *Reviews:* 'As a producer I would like to make an Indian film where you forget that it has a language, like in 'The  Lives of Others'  - SHAHRUKH KHAN 'Good Cinema is beyond countries, beyond boundaries, beyond languages. 'The Lives of Others' is one of those great films.' -VISHAL BHARDWAJ 'As a film it keeps you completely engrossed, keeps you at the edge of the seat, wanting to know what's going to happen next.' - RAJKUMAR HIRANI www.thelivesofothers.in www.bbp.co.in From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 19:29:20 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:59:20 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] cybercrimes et al References: <861149e00807092204j70aef6dbi554a1dd6783ed20e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00d601c8e295$2701e820$6400a8c0@taraprakash> In fact, this kind of messages are not new. Such messages have also been sent from various ministers' and their private secretaries' accounts to their well wishers. The content of the messages have been same -- they are stuck in a foreign land and need your help. Why foreign land because then you will pay in dollars using your credit card. I hope nobody paid to rescue you. Not only that person has lost his/her money, the credit card details of that person have also gone to the fraudsters. Regards TaraPrakash ----- Original Message ----- From: "Debjani Sengupta" To: Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 1:04 AM Subject: [Reader-list] cybercrimes et al > yesterday, i woke up to a scamster's world. i received calls from friends > all over that they have received mail from my email id asking for money as > i > was stranded in the UK. some of them were alarmed and called me. others > were > more net savvy and deleted the mail. when i asked them about it they said > they knew that i couldnt write a mail that was so poor in english and > second, the mail was too hysterical. one friend said he thought it was a > student of mine playing a prank! god forbid! > but yesterday, was a new day for me. i was born again... > my old yahoo mail id was hacked into and i want to share this experience > so > that people like me who are still grappling with so much new on cyberspace > may take heed. i had received a mail from Yahoo customer care asking me to > verify my pass word; without checking i answered the mail and of course, > all > hell broke loose. the lesson that i learnt was never, ever give out your > password even if the President or God asked for it. The second lesson that > i > learnt was never ever trust an email id, behind it may hide a Joker, a > Prankster, a Fraud, a Madman, a Hacker, a Psychopath,a Delinquent, a > Misnomer, a Gangbuster, a Mailman, a Sick Person, a Cyber Geek, a > Carpetbagger, a Republican, a Fundamentalist, and the list goes on and > on.... > yesterday's experience was in many ways a lesson in good manners, > something > that we are increasingly foregoing. i had calls from so many people, some > laughed outright at my predicament ( i could not access my yahoo mail id > and > all my contacts were lost, years of hard work and building up trust), > others > sniggered at my idiocy, and many others reiterated their love and > friendship > for me. i was born anew. i had to create a new mail id and painfully try > to > get my contact ids together. most imporatant of all,i had to call many > whom > i only knew through work and assure them of my integrity. it is something > i > will have to do for months to come but i will do it. whoever hacks into > personal mails like this is sick. but what they do not realize how much > suffering they cause with one little flick of their finger. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 10 20:06:31 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 07:36:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] cybercrimes et al In-Reply-To: <861149e00807092204j70aef6dbi554a1dd6783ed20e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <640271.3493.qm@web57210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> 1. You could try reporting your case and asking for help at    http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/security/general.html   - Fill in your current operating Email address   - In drop-down menu of 'Subject' choose "Report a suspicious mail etc etc"     2. You could also try writing to   account-security-help at cc.yahoo-inc.com and check whether they can help you retrieve your account and/or address book   Best of luck   K       --- On Thu, 7/10/08, Debjani Sengupta wrote: From: Debjani Sengupta Subject: [Reader-list] cybercrimes et al To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 10:34 AM yesterday, i woke up to a scamster's world. i received calls from friends all over that they have received mail from my email id asking for money as i was stranded in the UK. some of them were alarmed and called me. others were more net savvy and deleted the mail. when i asked them about it they said they knew that i couldnt write a mail that was so poor in english and second, the mail was too hysterical. one friend said he thought it was a student of mine playing a prank! god forbid! but yesterday, was a new day for me. i was born again... my old yahoo mail id was hacked into and i want to share this experience so that people like me who are still grappling with so much new on cyberspace may take heed. i had received a mail from Yahoo customer care asking me to verify my pass word; without checking i answered the mail and of course, all hell broke loose. the lesson that i learnt was never, ever give out your password even if the President or God asked for it. The second lesson that i learnt was never ever trust an email id, behind it may hide a Joker, a Prankster, a Fraud, a Madman, a Hacker, a Psychopath,a Delinquent, a Misnomer, a Gangbuster, a Mailman, a Sick Person, a Cyber Geek, a Carpetbagger, a Republican, a Fundamentalist, and the list goes on and on.... yesterday's experience was in many ways a lesson in good manners, something that we are increasingly foregoing. i had calls from so many people, some laughed outright at my predicament ( i could not access my yahoo mail id and all my contacts were lost, years of hard work and building up trust), others sniggered at my idiocy, and many others reiterated their love and friendship for me. i was born anew. i had to create a new mail id and painfully try to get my contact ids together. most imporatant of all,i had to call many whom i only knew through work and assure them of my integrity. it is something i will have to do for months to come but i will do it. whoever hacks into personal mails like this is sick. but what they do not realize how much suffering they cause with one little flick of their finger. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rashneek at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 08:29:11 2008 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 08:29:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] End the Moral Idiocy on Kashmir by Andrew Bostom Message-ID: <13df7c120807101959p1d42377fs851384d366573ad6@mail.gmail.com> I participated in a forum on Kashmir last night at MIT in Boston, as this Muslim supremacist, jihad-inspired conflict—really a tragic ethnic cleansing of the indigenous Hindus by Muslim jihadists which began in earnest during the 14th century—re-emerged in the news recentlywhen the Indian government had the "temerity" to want to transfer 99 acres of land to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board, a trust running the popular Hindu shrine (including the cave that houses a large ice stalagmite itself, revered by Hindus as an incarnation of Siva, the god of destruction and reproduction). Hundreds of thousands of Hindus visit the area as part of an annual pilgrimage to the cave. Please watch the video linked below, which chronicles in gory detail the brutal ethnic cleansing of some 350,000 indigenous Hindus from Kashmir during early 1990, orchestrated by Pakistan and it's "moderate" Prime Minister, Benazir Bhutto. I was privileged last night to meet the astute, courageous, and passionate filmmaker, Ashok Pandit, who produced this documentary, "And the World Remained Silent ". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCRFWStxV_4 (Part 1) Focus on the time period 2:15 to 4:00 minutes, from part 1 above, *and witness the jihadist speech of the late, much ballyhooed "modernist reformer" Benazir Bhutto. She was a jihadist, plain and simple; the head of what remains a jihadist state, our "ally" Pakistan.* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2vsztUdkpU&feature=related (Part 2) Here is the text of the comments I delivered last night for historical background: *Islamic Separatism & Kashmir: A Panel Discussion Exploring the Relationship Between Religion and Kashmiri Tangle, July 9, 2008, Wednesday at 6:00 PM* * * During mid-November, 2007, a grim milestone was recorded in the macabre tally being kept assiduously in cyberspace by blogger Glen Reinsford: the 10,000th attack by jihad terrorists resulting in some 60,000 dead and 90,000 injured since the cataclysmic acts of jihad terrorism on September 11, 2001. Reinsford does not include combat-related statistics, and he acknowledges that the death toll may increase in the days and months following any given attack (as victims die from their injuries), and this rarely gets reported. His tally also excludes the genocide in Darfur committed by the Islamic government in Sudan, and their marauding jihadist militias (the Janjaweed), whose murderous ravages the UN estimated last year had resulted in some 400,000 dead, and 2 million displaced. Reinsford identified three episodes of such continuous, mind numbing jihadist carnage which had perhaps unsettled him most: *Nadimarg, Kashmir India* (3/23/03), dozens of Hindu villagers roused out of their beds and machine-gunned by Lashkar-e-Toiba; Beslan, Russia (9/3/04), some 350 people slaughtered by jihadists—half of them children; Malatya, Turkey (4/18/07), three Christian Bible distributors bound, tortured for hours, then gruesomely murdered by men who acted explicitly in the name of Islam. These data should remind us that there is just one historically relevant meaning of jihad despite contemporary apologetics. Jahada, the root of the word Jihad, appears 40 times in the Koran—under a variety of grammatical forms. With 4 exceptions, all the other 36 usages (in specific Koranic verses) are variations of the third form of the verb, i.e. Jahida. Jahida in the Koran and in subsequent Islamic understanding to both Muslim luminaries—from the greatest jurists and scholars of classical Islam (including Abu Yusuf, Averroes, Ibn Khaldun, and Al Ghazzali), to ordinary people—meant and means "he fought, warred or waged war against unbelievers and the like", as described by the seminal Arabic lexicographer E.W Lane. Indeed, Lane's, *An Arabic English Lexicon* (6 volumes, London, 1865) is still used to this day by Muslim and non-Muslim scholars for definitive Arabic to English translation. Thus Lane, who studied both the etymology and usage of the term jihad, observed, "Jihad came to be used by the Muslims to signify wag[ing] war, against unbelievers." Muhammad himself waged a series of proto-jihad campaigns to subdue the Jews, Christians and pagans of Arabia. Numerous modern day pronouncements by leading Muslim theologians confirm (see Yusuf Al-Qaradawi's, "The Prophet Muhammad as a Jihad Model") that Muhammad has been the major inspiration for jihadism, past and present. Ibn Khaldun (d. 1406), jurist, renowned philosopher, historian, and sociologist, summarized these consensus opinions from five centuries of prior Muslim jurisprudence with regard to the uniquely Islamic institution of jihad: *In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the [Muslim] mission and [the obligation to] convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force… The other religious groups did not have a universal mission, and the holy war was not a religious duty for them, save only for purposes of defense… Islam is under obligation to gain power over other nations.* Classical Islamic jurists such as Ibn Khaldun also formulated the concepts *Dar al Islam* and *Dar al Harb* (Arabic for, "The House of Islam and the House of War"). As described by the great 20th century scholar of Islamic Law, Joseph Schacht, *A non-Muslim who is not protected by a treaty is called harbi, 'in a state of war', 'enemy alien'; his life and property are completely unprotected by law…* Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, "spiritual" leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, head of the "European Council for Fatwa and Research", and popular Al-Jazeera television personality, reiterated almost this exact formulation of Dar al Harb during July 2003, both in conceptual terms, and with regard to Israel, specifically. And these innocent non-combatant "harbis" can be killed, and have always been killed, with impunity simply by virtue of being "harbis" during endless razzias and or full scale jihad campaigns that have occurred continuously since the time of Muhammad, through the present. This is the crux of the specific institutionalized religio-political ideology, i.e., jihad, which makes Islamdom's borders (and the further reaches of todays jihadists) bloody, to paraphrase Samuel Huntington, across the globe. The essential pattern of the jihad war is captured in the classical Muslim historian al-Tabari' s recording of the recommendation given by Umar b. al-Khattab (the second "Rightly Guided Caliph") to the commander of the troops he sent to al-Basrah (636 C.E.), during the conquest of Iraq. Umar reportedly said: *Summon the people to God; those who respond to your call, accept it from them, but those who refuse must pay the poll tax out of humiliation and lowliness. (Koran 9:29) If they refuse this, it is the sword without leniency. * By the time of al-Tabari's death in 923, jihad wars had expanded the Muslim empire from Portugal to the Indian subcontinent Despite the brutal Islamization of India—dating back to the initial 8th century Arab Muslim jihad ravages, and the subsequent more extensive campaigns under the Ghaznavids, through the Delhi Sultanate period (1000-1525 C.E.) during which an estimated 70-80 million Hindus were slaughtered—due to India's bowdlerized educational system, and public discourse on Islam, many modern Hindus remain ignorant of both this history, and the Koranic injunctions which inspired the brutal waves of jihad conquest and Muslim colonization of India. (As such, perhaps Americans aren't that relatively uninformed, after all.) The 570 year period between the initial Arab Muslim razzias (ordered by Caliph Umar) to pillage Thana (on the West Indian coast near Maharashtra) in 636-637 C.E., and the establishment of the Delhi Sultanate (under Qutub-ud-din Aibak, a Turkish slave soldier), can be divided into four major epochs: (I) the conflict between the Arab invaders and the (primarily) Hindu resisters on the Western coast of India from 636-713 C.E.; (II) the Arab and Turkish Muslim onslaughts against the kingdom of Hindu Afghanistan during 636-870 C.E.; (III) repeated Turkish efforts to subdue the Punjab from 870 C.E. to 1030 C.E. highlighted by the devastating campaigns of Mahmud of Ghazni (from 1000- 1030 C.E.); and finally (IV) Muhammad Ghauri's conquest of northwestern India and the Gangetic valley between 1175 and 1206 C.E. This summary chronology necessarily overlooks the very determined and successful resistance that was offered by the Hindus to both the Arab (in particular) and Turkish invaders, during almost four centuries. For example, despite the rapidity of Mahmud of Ghazni's conquests- spurred by shock-tactics and the religious zealotry of Islamic jihad- his successors, for almost 150 years, could not extend their domain beyond the Punjab frontiers. Even after the establishment of the Delhi Sultanate (1206-1526), and the later Mughal Empire (1526-1707), Muslim rulers failed to Islamize large swaths of Indian territory, and most of the populace. The first Mughal Emperor, Babur (1483-1530), made these relevant observations upon establishing his rule in India: *[Hindustan] is a different world…once the water of Sindh is crossed, everything is in the Hindustan way- land, water, tree, rock, people, and horde, opinion and custom…Most of the inhabitants of Hindustan are pagans; they call a pagan a Hindu.* Buddhist civilization within India, in stark contrast, proved far less resilient. Historian Vincent Smith has described the devastating impact of the late 12th century jihad razzias against the Buddhist communities of northern India, centered around Bihar, based on Muslim sources, exclusively: *The Muhammadan historian, indifferent to distinctions among idolators, states that the majority of the inhabitants were "clean shaven Brahmans," who were all put to the sword. He evidently means Buddhist monks, as he was informed that the whole city and fortress were considered to be a college, which the name Bihar signifies. A great library was scattered. When the victors desired to know what the books might be no man capable of explaining their contents had been left alive. No doubt everything was burnt. The multitude of images used in Medieval Buddhist worship always inflamed the fanaticism of Muslim warriors to such fury that no quarter was given to the idolators. The ashes of the Buddhist sanctuaries at Sarnath near Benares still bear witness to the rage of the image breakers. Many noble monuments of the ancient civilization of India were irretrievably wrecked in the course of the early Muhammadan invasions. Those invasions were fatal to the existence of Buddhism as an organized religion in northern India, where its strength resided chiefly in Bihar and certain adjoining territories. The monks who escaped massacre fled, and were scattered over Nepal, Tibet, and the south. After A.D. 1200 the traces of Buddhism in upper India are faint and obscure.* Three major waves of jihad campaigns (exclusive of the jihad conquest of Afghanistan) succeeded, ultimately, in establishing a permanent Muslim dominion within India, i.e., the Delhi Sultanate, which included the imposition of dhimmitude upon the vanquished Hindu populations. The Muslim chroniclers al-Baladhuri (in *Kitab Futuh al-Buldan*) and al-Kufi (in the *Chachnama*) include enough isolated details to establish the overall nature of the conquest of Sindh by Muhammad b. Qasim in 712 C.E. These narratives, and the processes they describe, make clear that the Arab invaders intended from the outset to Islamize Sindh by conquest, colonization, and local conversion. Baladhuri, for example, records that following the capture of Debal, Muhammad b. Qasim earmarked a section of the city exclusively for Muslims, constructed a mosque, and established four thousand colonists there. The conquest of Debal had been a brutal affair, as summarized from the Muslim sources by Majumdar. Despite appeals for mercy from the besieged Indians (who opened their gates after the Muslims scaled the fort walls), Muhammad b. Qasim declared that he had no orders (i.e., from his superior al-Hajjaj, the Governor of Iraq) to spare the inhabitants, and thus for three days a ruthless and indiscriminate slaughter ensued. In the aftermath, the local temple was defiled, and "700 beautiful females who had sought for shelter there, were all captured". The capture of Raor was accompanied by a similar tragic outcome. *Muhammad massacred 6000 fighting men who were found in the fort, and their followers and dependents, as well as their women and children were taken prisoners. Sixty thousand slaves, including 30 young ladies of royal blood, were sent to Hajjaj, along with the head of Dahar [the Hindu ruler]. We can now well understand why the capture of a fort by the Muslim forces was followed by the terrible jauhar ceremony (in which females threw themselves in fire [they] kindled…), the earliest recorded instance of which is found in the Chachnama. * Practical, expedient considerations lead Muhammad to desist from carrying out the strict injunctions of Islamic Law and the wishes of al-Hajjaj by massacring the (pagan) infidel Hindus of Sindh. Instead, he imposed upon the vanquished Hindus the *jizya* and associated restrictive regulations of dhimmitude. As a result, the *Chachnama* records, "some [Hindus] resolved to live in their native land, but others took flight in order to maintain the faith of their ancestors, and their horses, domestics, and other property." Thus a lasting pattern of Muslim policy towards their Hindu subjects was set that would persist, as noted by Majumdar, until the Mughal Empire collapsed at the end of Aurangzeb's reign (in 1707): *Something no doubt depended upon individual rulers; some of them adopted a more liberal, others a more cruel and intolerant attitude. But on the whole the framework remained intact, for it was based on the fundamental principle of Islamic theocracy. It recognized only one faith, one people, and one supreme authority, acting as the head of a religious trust. The Hindus, being infidels or non-believers, could not claim the full rights of citizens. At the very best, they could be tolerated as dhimmis, an insulting title which connoted political inferiority…The Islamic State regarded all non-Muslims as enemies, to curb whose growth in power was conceived to be its main interest. The ideal preached by even high officials was to exterminate them totally, but in actual practice they seem to have followed an alternative laid down in the Qur'an [i.e., Q9:29] which calls upon Muslims to fight the unbelievers till they pay the jizya with due humility. This was the tax the Hindus had to pay for permission to live in their ancestral homes under a Muslim ruler. * *Some Brief Observations on the Islamization of Kashmir and the Consequences of Muslim Rule* Mahmud of Ghazni made brutal forays into Kashmir in the early 11th century, but it was not until the mid-14th century when the ruling Hindu dynasty was displaced completely by Shah Mirza, in 1346, and Kashmir was brought under Muslim suzerainty. During the reign of Sikandar Butshikan (1394-1417), mass Islamization took place as described by the great historian K.S. Lal: *He [Sikandar Butshikan] invited from Persia, Arabia, and Mesopotamia learned men of his own [Muslim] faith; his bigotry prompted him to destroy all the most famous temples in Kashmir—Martand, Vishya, Isna, Chakrabhrit, Tripeshwar, etc. Sikandar offered the Kashmiris the choice [pace Koran 9:5] between Islam and death. Some Kashmiri Brahmans committed suicide, many left the land, many others embraced Islam, and a few began to live under Taqiya, that is, they professed Islam only outwardly. It is said that the fierce intolerance of Sikandar had left in Kashmir no more than eleven families of Brahmans.* Lal also notes that, *His [Sikandar Butshikan's] contemporary the [Hindu] Raja of Jammu had been converted to Islam by [Amir] Timur [the jihadist, Tamerlane], by "hopes, fears, and threats."* When the Moghul ruler Akbar annexed Kashmir in 1586, the majority of the population was already Muslim. Lal summarizes the chronic plight of the Kashmiri Hindus during a half millennium of Islamic rule, through 1819, which explains the modern demography of Kashmir: *When Kashmir was under Muslim rule for 500 years, Hindus were constantly tortured and forcibly converted. A delegation of Kashmir Brahmans approached Guru Teg Bahadur at Anadpur Saheb to seek his help. But Kashmir was Islamized. Those who fled to preserve their religion went to Laddakh in the east and Jammu in the south. It is for this reason that non-Muslims are found in large number in these regions. In the valley itself the Muslims formed the bulk of the population.* http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/2008/07/10/end-the-moral-idiocy-on-kashmir/ Best -- Rashneek Kher Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From films_freedom at yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 12:56:02 2008 From: films_freedom at yahoo.com (Freedom Films) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 00:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] 'Love Song' On DD1 9 am 12th July Saturday Message-ID: <790721.22705.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear friends, I take the pleasure in informing you that our film   'Love Song' India / 2008 / 29 minutes / DV Cam / English / Hindi / Marathi   is scheduled for telecast on   Doordarshan (DD1) at 9.00 am of 12th July, Saturday.   Do tune into the channel and watch the film. Do feel free to post your comments at richahushing at gmail.com   Synopsis:   Love song... Is it love or the lack of it ? Certain uncertainties... Personal doubts and fears regarding love in relationships... A fight for freedom and a need to belong... The film is a document of emotions questioning conventional notions of marriage, belonging, sexuality and morality amidst an urban Indian milieu... searching home...     Crew: Editing & Direction : Richa Hushing Camera Work : Rrivu Laha Audiography : Amala Popuri   It is a PSBT Prasar Bharti Presentation   On behalf of the crew Richa From the.solipsist at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 15:23:30 2008 From: the.solipsist at gmail.com (Pranesh Prakash) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:23:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] NLSIU Bangalore | Film Screening and Discussion with Anand Patwardhan on Saturday Message-ID: <4785f1e20807110253y9c574d3y1d7deda04dbd9aa8@mail.gmail.com> From: Date: Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 14:55 Subject: Film Screening and Discussion with Anand Patwardhan on Saturday The Law and Society Commmittee of National Law School of India University is hosting renowned documentary film-maker and activist Anand Patwardhan for a screening of his film 'Jang Aur Aman'and discussion thereafter on Saturday, 12 July, 2008. The screening will commence on the NLS campus at 2.30 pm. All are cordially invited to attend the same. For further details please contact, Aishwarya +919886947147. Law and Society Commmittee National Law School of India. ---------- *Jang Aur Aman* *Film Screening And Discussion With Anand Patwardhan* * * Date: July 12, 2008 Time: 2:30 p.m. Venue: National Law School of India University. Anand Patwardhan is an Indian documentary filmmaker, most known for his activism through social action documentaries on topics ranging from corruption, slums dwellers, nuclear arms race, citizen activism to communalism, noted amongst these are * Ram ke Nam* ("In the Name of God", 1992), *Pitr, Putr aur Dharmayuddha* ("Father, Son and Holy War") (1995) and Jang Aur Aman ("War and Peace", 2002), which have won several national and International awards. Virtually all his films have faced censorship: "Father Son and the Holy War" (1995), although adjudged in 2004, as one of 50 most memorable international documentaries of all time, by DOX, Documentary film magazine; was shown on India's National Network, Doordarshan only in the year 2006 after a prolonged court battle which lasted 8 years. *Jang Aur Aman* is a documentary journey of peaceful activism in the face of global militarism and war. Filmed over three tumultuous years in India, Pakistan, Japan and the USA following nuclear tests in the Indian sub-continent, the film explores the sub-continent's trajectory towards unabashed militarism and captures stories of resistance along the way. The same is framed by the murder of Mahatma Gandhi in 1948, an act whose portent and poignancy remains undiminished half a century later. It moves on to examine the costs being extracted from citizens in the name of national security, the plight of residents living near the nuclear test site to the horrendous effects of uranium mining on local indigenous populations. This film has won numerous awards, including Grand Prize at the Earth Vision Film Festival in 2002, FIPRESCI International Critics' Award at Sydney Film Festival in 2002 and National Film Award for Best Non-Feature Film, India, 2004. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 15:41:19 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:41:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Elderly couple set themselves on fire after losing land - CNN-IBN Message-ID: <6353c690807110311n72d4f642j45ab3a5f6ea7d258@mail.gmail.com> Elderly couple set themselves on fire after losing land *Pawan Bali* / *CNN-IBN* [image: TRAGIC END: Ramanand, 72, and his wife Vaishno Devi had been fighting for their land for the last five years.] *TRAGIC END: Ramanand, 72, and his wife Vaishno Devi had been fighting for their land for the last five years.* *Jammu:* Hundred acres of land near the Amarnath shrine had entire Jammu and Kashmir state burning last month. And on Thursday, an elderly Kashmiri migrant couple set themselves on fire after losing their 22.5 acres of land, allegedly due to encroachment. Ramanand, 72, and his wife Vaishno Devi killed themselves in their house in the Nagrota migrant camp. The couple had left Kashmir in 1989 and been living in their one-room house for the last 19 years. "He (Ramanand) had come from Srinagar and told me that his land was encroached upon by neighbours and a tehsildar. He said a school had been built there," Ramanand's friend, Moti Lal Bhat, said. "He wasn't given any compensation for the land. He had been fighting for it for several years and was extremely frustrated." The couple had no children. Their closest friend, Gauri Singh, says that for the last five years Ramanand had been regularly going to Kashmir to reclaim his land in the Man'd Gori village of Kulgam. "His petitions have been lying with administration, DCs, tehsildars, and even relief commissioner for the last five years but no one has responded," Gauri said. Such instances of land encroachment are not the first for Kashmiri migrants. Recently, the state assembly even passed a bill to prevent encroachment. Organisations have even been demanding that revenue records be digitalised and posted on the web to prevent tampering. But before all that is implemented, two lives have already been lost. The incident is another reminder of the fact that land still remains an emotional for those who left Kashmir. From pkray11 at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 15:41:35 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:41:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Betrayal of Public Commitment Message-ID: <98f331e00807110311h303fded8id62acffb527a18b2@mail.gmail.com> *Press Statement* * * * * The Left parties have issued the following statement: *Betray**al of Pub**lic Commitment* * * The Minister for External Affairs, Shri Pranab Mukherjee, announced on July 8, 2008 at a press conference that the government would send India's safeguards agreement to the International Atomic Energy Agency Board for approval only if it won the trust vote in parliament. "I cannot bind the government if we lose our majority", he said. He also stated that he had consulted the Prime Minister who was in Japan, in this regard. Coming hours after the announcement that the Left parties had decided to withdraw support to the government, this was a solemn commitment to the country that the government would not proceed to the Board of Governors of the IAEA till the government proved its majority in parliament. It is shocking that less than twenty four hours of such a statement, the IAEA has announced that at the request of the Government of India, the text has been submitted to the Board for its consideration. (Annexure – press release of the IAEA). This is a blatant violation of the assurance given by the government, a betrayal of a moral commitment to the country. What transpired in the meeting of the Prime Minister with President Bush which led to this going back on a public pledge? The Prime Minister owes an answer to the people and the country. The Left parties had on July 8, 2008 asserted that it is the Government of India which is keeping the text confidential and not the IAEA. This has been confirmed by spokespersons of the IAEA in the last twenty four hours. Subsequently, the text of the Draft India Safeguards Agreement is now available in the public domain. The Left parties will study the Draft of the Safeguards Agreement and come out with our analysis and stand. *Sd/-* *Prakash Karat A.B. Bardhan Debabrata Biswas * *General Secretary, CPI(M) General Secretary, CPI General Secretary, AIFB* From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Jul 11 15:54:54 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:24:54 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Betrayal of Public Commitment In-Reply-To: <98f331e00807110311h303fded8id62acffb527a18b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00807110311h303fded8id62acffb527a18b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: It is unfortunate that a PM of the nation with his persoanl agenda to please his Madam for kickbacks, and his headmaster Bush should strive to mortgage national interest in perpetuity in the hands of another nation which is known for its aberration of deviant behaviour to be police in the comity of nations thus undermining the United nations itself.! It is time for all citizens of the nation to understand the difference between "preamble" of an agreement and operating parts of the agreement, which are totally not in the nations interest. Few days , before I had pointedly asked about the safeguards against the nation and some in the list tried to gloss over kickbacks and not on the issues about future generaion being held captive in prpetuity by another nation. Hyde Act and much before, it is known to all indians how America , after the Pokhran I had cut off the supply of material for the N-plant built with national exchequer for peaceful generation of Energy,it is commendable that indian scietists indegeneously developed the fuel from thorium to keep going after enormous efforts for Trombay, Apasara reactor, thanks also to the defence deals with russia which stood with India in the hours of crisis. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: prakash ray Date: Friday, July 11, 2008 3:42 pm Subject: [Reader-list] Betrayal of Public Commitment To: reader-list at sarai.net > *Press Statement* > > * * > > * * > > The Left parties have issued the following statement: > > > > *Betray**al of Pub**lic Commitment* > > * * > > The Minister for External Affairs, Shri Pranab Mukherjee, > announced on July > 8, 2008 at a press conference that the government would send India's > safeguards agreement to the International Atomic Energy Agency > Board for > approval only if it won the trust vote in parliament. "I cannot > bind the > government if we lose our majority", he said. > > > > He also stated that he had consulted the Prime Minister who was in > Japan, in > this regard. > > > > Coming hours after the announcement that the Left parties had > decided to > withdraw support to the government, this was a solemn commitment > to the > country that the government would not proceed to the Board of > Governors of > the IAEA till the government proved its majority in parliament. > > > > It is shocking that less than twenty four hours of such a > statement, the > IAEA has announced that at the request of the Government of India, > the text > has been submitted to the Board for its consideration. (Annexure – > pressrelease of the IAEA). > > > > This is a blatant violation of the assurance given by the > government, a > betrayal of a moral commitment to the country. > > > > What transpired in the meeting of the Prime Minister with > President Bush > which led to this going back on a public pledge? > > > > The Prime Minister owes an answer to the people and the country. > > > > The Left parties had on July 8, 2008 asserted that it is the > Government of > India which is keeping the text confidential and not the IAEA. > This has been > confirmed by spokespersons of the IAEA in the last twenty four hours. > > > > Subsequently, the text of the Draft India Safeguards Agreement is now > available in the public domain. The Left parties will study the > Draft of the > Safeguards Agreement and come out with our analysis and stand. > > > > > > *Sd/-* > > > > *Prakash Karat A.B. Bardhan > Debabrata Biswas * > > *General Secretary, CPI(M) General Secretary, CPI General > Secretary, AIFB* > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Jul 11 16:34:11 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:04:11 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] MIND YOUR LANGUAGE, Mr Amar Singh! In-Reply-To: <98f331e00807092022g4ba43632w79e8c9a06ae53530@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00807092022g4ba43632w79e8c9a06ae53530@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: What do you expect from a broker od deals, behaving in the political arena as a pimp.? He is getting his job done by autonomous bodies like CBI, enforcement directorate and Sonia is going all out to save herself of her commissions and omissions after her uncle Q got her home in turin got fully ready for her stay. Regards. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: prakash ray Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:53 am Subject: [Reader-list] MIND YOUR LANGUAGE, Mr Amar Singh! To: reader-list at sarai.net > WOMEN BODIES FLAY AMAR SINGH > > New Delhi, July 9: The leading national women's organisations -- > AIDWA,NFIW, GOS, JWP, YWCA and CWDS have jointly issued the > following statement: > > > The widely reported remark made by Shri. Amar Singh using sexist > language to describe meetings between political leaders, is highly > objectionable, condemnable, and unacceptable. He has been reported as > using terms like 'suhaagraat' (wedding night) and 'balaatkar' > (rape) to > refer to the meetings between Ms. Sonia Gandhi, and leaders of other > political parties. It is quite shocking that a political leader > can make > comments in such bad taste about political relationships that > involve a > prominent woman leader of the country. There are many women in high > political office and in the leadership of various parties. Such > remarksnot only trivialize their role, and insults the concerned > individual,but is demeaning to all women. The women's > organizations strongly > condemn this remark, which is totally unbefitting of a political > leaderoccupying a responsible position. We call upon all democratic > organizations and individuals to condemn this kind of verbal abuse. > > Since the remark referred to has not been denied by Shri. Amar > Singh, we > demand a retraction, and a public apology. > > The signatories of statement are: > > Sudha Sundararaman (All India Democratic Women's Association (AIDWA), > Annie Raja (National Federation for Indian Women (NFIW), Mohini Giri > (Guild of Service (GOS), Jyotsna Chatterjee Joint Women's Programme > (JWP), Kalpana David (Young Women's Christian Association (YWCA), Mary > John ( Centre for Women's Development Studies (CWDS). > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Jul 11 16:36:34 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:06:34 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? In-Reply-To: <91290c60807091006n6a8a7699ka9017befe0d0dd6@mail.gmail.com> References: <91290c60807090824m63176a0akd07d3940eeafc904@mail.gmail.com> <507200.51466.qm@web8403.mail.in.yahoo.com> <91290c60807091006n6a8a7699ka9017befe0d0dd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Fathina seems to be overlooking the saudi riyals and petro dollars that have flown into "secular NGO of Theesta for the defence of her "communal" accused in blast cases to pay for high profile "criminal" lawyers and corruption involved in process of judicial prosecution.? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rashmi Sawhney Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008 10:37 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Dera Fatima, > > Two brief points: > > 1. There is a measure of desperation in suggesting that the US > should take > responsibility for 'smoking out' Modi as they've been doing with > individualsand nations they see as being problematic around the > world. Although, > privately, if they manage to isolate him and do this, I will join > in your > celebrations. > 2. I have a fundamental issue with your point about whether Modi's > non/entryis going to affect the business and trade of the people > of Gujarat/ of > Gujarati origin. > The view: Gujarati = Hindu = pro-Modi/pro-Hindutva is problematic and > furthers the very image and idea of Gujarat that the BJP have been > projecting under Modi's leadership. There are many Gujaratis who are > Muslims, Jains, Parsis and Christians, so the alignment of a > linguisticcommunity with a religious group is problematic. > > I will rest my case here, > > Rashmi > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 5:40 PM, S.Fatima > wrote: > > > Dear Rashmi > > I know my analogy was stupid, but I was mostly reacting to the > report which > > I quoted about the US State department revoking his visa earlier > under the > > Immigration and Nationality Act, "which prohibits foreign > officials who are > > responsible for or directly carried out, at any time, > particularly severe > > violations of religious freedom from obtaining U.S. visas". Now, > why doesn't > > such a law apply in India, why can't we punish him under similar > accusations> here. I am sure the US govt is acting in this manner > only on the basis of > > the information provided to it by the Indian state. > > > > This is what I can't fathom: we in India continue to accept > Modi, vote him > > to power, allow him to do all that business of shining Gujarat, > but we have > > a problem if he goes to the US (as you say even the people > outside the US > > will be agitated if he enters US). So, why aren't we doing > something about > > him while he shines in Gujarat. Why doesn't the US bomb Gujarat > to 'smoke > > him' out, the way it does to the others it doesn't like. > > > > I have my doubts if his non-entry is going to affect the > business and trade > > of the Gujaratis. On the other hand, the rallying for his non- > entry by the > > so-called peace activists only leads to further divide between > the NRI > > saffronites and the secularists. The saffronites will get > further motivated > > to work against the cause of peace. More hate-dollars will pump > into India. > > > > SF > > > > > > --- On Wed, 9/7/08, Rashmi Sawhney wrote: > > > > > From: Rashmi Sawhney > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean > anything?> > To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Date: Wednesday, 9 July, 2008, 8:54 PM > > > Dear Fatima, > > > > > > Your analogy, I must agree with you, may probably be wrong, > > > but is certainly > > > naive and unproductive. A second denial of entry into the > > > US may be seen > > > from within Modi camps as being detrimental to his efforts > > > of furthering the > > > lie about a vibrant Gujarat. There are enough numbers of > > > religious > > > fundamentalists in the Western world who support Modi's > > > Hindutva ideology, > > > who may probably not take to the visa refusal kindly. Had > > > the US granted > > > Modi entry so many anti Modi individuals and organisations > > > around the world, > > > including in India, would be agitaged about this too. > > > > > > It is not a question of whether the activists in the US and > > > NRIs want > > > to demonstrate that their sympathy for Gujarat's > > > Muslims is more than > > > activists in India - I think that is a reductive approach > > > that defeats the > > > purpose of a collective anti-Modi struggle. If you want to > > > campaign against > > > the USA's discriminatory and hypocritic policies, there > > > are many other > > > widely available issues that you could pick on - issues > > > that affect common > > > people without any clout or power. > > > > > > Most countries have their own 'germ-infested foods' > > > that are rapidly > > > destroying any social fabrics composed of difference - > > > perhaps one could > > > consider the option of deputing germs-infested foods from > > > different > > > societies to other parts of the world to see if they > > > survive under hostile > > > and foreign conditions. Or, if your approach to solving the > > > problem of > > > Gujarat is to 'export' the germ-infested food, > > > please consider throwing it > > > in the sea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 3:30 PM, S.Fatima > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Please see the report/appeal below, about another > > > effort to stop the > > > > Gujarat CM Narendra Modi from entering the US. While > > > withholding all my > > > > angst against what he allowed to happen in Gujarat in > > > 2002 and the fact that > > > > he shamelessly continues to be blind to the growing > > > hatred against Muslims, > > > > I wonder if the efforts by our activist friends in the > > > US to stop him from > > > > entering that soil mean anything other than a > > > hypocracy. After all, he > > > > continues to live and do what he pleases in > > > India/Gujarat, but we won't > > > > allow him in the US... Isn't that ridiculous? > > > > > > > > Are they trying to teach him a lesson, or punish him > > > through this gesture? > > > > Is his non-entry into the US going to badly affect the > > > Gujaratis' business > > > > and trade (which he is supposed to solemnize in New > > > Jersey)? Not the least, > > > > I think. So what is it then? Is it a symbolic > > > rejection of his leadership? > > > > Or do the NRI and American activist want to show that > > > they care about > > > > Gujarat's Muslims more than the activists in > > > India? > > > > > > > > Although this analogy maybe completely wrong, but I > > > can't help think this: > > > > "We won't allow a germ-infested food that is > > > killing thousands in India to > > > > enter the US".... > > > > Other thoughts are welcome. > > > > > > > > ========== > > > > > > > > USCIRF Urges Denial of U.S. Visa to Gujarat Chief > > > Minister Narendra Modi > > > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > > July 8, 2008 > > > > > > > > Contact: Judith Ingram > > > > Communications Director > > > > (202) 523-3240, ext. 127 > > > > > > > > WASHINGTON - The United States Commission on > > > International Religious > > > > Freedom urges the U.S. State Department to reaffirm > > > its past decision to > > > > deny a tourist visa to Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra > > > Modi, who has been > > > > invited to attend a conference in New Jersey this > > > August celebrating > > > > Gujarati culture. Modi was previously denied entrance > > > to the United States > > > > due to his role in riots that overtook the Indian > > > state of Gujarat from > > > > February to May 2002 in which reportedly as many as > > > 2,000 Muslims were > > > > killed, thousands raped, and over 200,000 displaced. > > > Numerous reports, > > > > including reports of official bodies of the Government > > > of India, have > > > > documented the role of Modi's state government in > > > the planning and execution > > > > of the violence, and the failure to hold perpetrators > > > accountable. > > > > > > > > Following Modi's invitation to attend conferences > > > in the U.S. in 2005, the > > > > Commission successfully urged the State Department to > > > revoke Modi's U.S. > > > > tourist visa. Despite pressure from the Indian > > > government, the State > > > > Department revoked his visa under the Immigration and > > > Nationality Act (INA), > > > > which prohibits foreign government officials who are > > > "responsible for or > > > > directly carried out, at any time, particularly severe > > > violations of > > > > religious freedom" from obtaining U.S. visas. > > > This section was added to the > > > > INA by the International Religious Freedom Act of > > > 1998. The Commission once > > > > again urges the State Department to announce > > > Modi's ineligibility for a visa > > > > under the terms of the INA. > > > > > > > > "We have not seen changes that would warrant a > > > policy reversal," said > > > > Commission Chair Felice D. Gaer. "As official > > > bodies of the government of > > > > India have found, Narendra Modi is culpable for the > > > egregious and systematic > > > > human rights abuses wrought against thousands of > > > India's Muslims. Mr. Modi > > > > must demonstrate to the State Department and to the > > > American people why > > > > he-as a person found to have aided and abetted gross > > > violations of human > > > > rights, including religious freedom-should now be > > > eligible for a tourist > > > > visa. > > > > > > > > Following the riots in 2002, India's National > > > Human Rights Commission > > > > issued a report that pointed to the role of Modi's > > > government in the > > > > systematic murder of Muslims and the calculated > > > destruction of Muslim homes > > > > and businesses. In 2003, the Indian central government > > > found corruption and > > > > anti-Muslim bias to be so pervasive in the Gujarat > > > judiciary that riot cases > > > > were shifted for trial to the neighboring state of > > > Maharashtra. Despite > > > > this action, the lack of justice for victims remains a > > > serious concern, as > > > > there have been very few court convictions in the six > > > years since the > > > > religion-based riots. In 2007, a series of articles in > > > the Indian > > > > publication Tehelka documented police officers and > > > government officials on > > > > audio and videotape confessing that they facilitated > > > the violence, at times > > > > at the direct behest of Modi. > > > > > > > > "The inaction of Gujarat's government and > > > police force in the face of > > > > severe violence against religious minorities is an > > > inexcusable abuse of > > > > international human rights obligations," Gaer > > > said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, > > > on > > > > > > > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools- > 08.html/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > > city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or > yourname at rocketmail.com.> Click here > http://in..promos.yahoo.com/address> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From shuddha at sarai.net Fri Jul 11 16:37:34 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:37:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar Message-ID: <7F36D1DA-4DCE-42EF-A812-2887B32CFE94@sarai.net> Dear All, I find it sad that all those who live in India are being sent headlong into a period of turbulence following the unilateral decision by the so-called Left parties in response to the Indo-US Nuclear Deal. In all likelihood, if the government of the day fails to pass the test of numbers on the floor of parliament, India will head straight for early elections. The likely beneficiary of this process will be the BJP, and if, going by the extensive coverage that the Hindu, usually the mainstream media mouthpiece of the so called Communist Party of India (Marxist) has given to L.K. Advani (the billowing PM in waiting of the BJP), then, it needs to be read as a sign of things to come. A covert entente cordiale between the so called Left and the Right in Indian politics. Or, in other words, Prakash Karat handing L.K. Advani the prime-ministership on a platter. A decade or so ago, while Harkrishen Singh Surjeet was 'managing' the Congress on behalf of the CPI(M), a similar covert entente cordiale between the so called Left and the Congress (which matured into a full fledged partnership) was as unthinkable, as what augurs, when the 'Patriots' of the Left and the Right begin dancing their secret tango. In this entire episode, everyone has come out in glorious colours, the Congress with its pathetic kow-towing to US interests under the stewardship of George Bush, the Left with its myopic Nuclear patriotism and its abdication of any responsibility towards developing a programme that is critical of the Indian state's Nuclear military ambitions, the BJP with its sabre rattling, the Socialists with their usual cynical opportunism. And so ends the brief humid Weimar of the Indian Republic. Let us celebrate its demise by recalling how pallid and banal it has already become. I guess we should all now get accustomed to the idea of Narendra Modi as a possible Union Minister of the Interior in the forthcoming years. best Shuddha Shuddhabrata Sengupta From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Jul 11 16:41:19 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:11:19 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? In-Reply-To: <632184.67678.qm@web8415.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <91290c60807091006n6a8a7699ka9017befe0d0dd6@mail.gmail.com> <632184.67678.qm@web8415.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sadia, what one should do in civilised democratic society as citizen of the society. ? As a citizen I can vote for him or vote for another candidate. What do you mean by doing some thing, you are encouraging citizens to take law into their hands be barbaric to dispense what you seem and deem it as right. ? Then what is the difference between you and Dawood Ibrahim or Al queada chief. ? Freedom means as you are free you have social responsibilty as well beyond religion and faith as human, it is better you remember that overwhelming citizens have voted for the party and its leader to rule the state and govern for the assigned term of five years. In democratic way, you can vote him out, do not nurse any other ideas as you are cause for action and then reaction which can be very traumatic for all citizens as violence only begets more of it, in the process of blasts, the blasts do not recognise the victims religion and faith to strike miseries. It is my sincere request to stop this nonsense of action and reactions and if possible generate awareness if any bad acts done personally by Modi with evidence, educate the voter about good governance in democratic system, thus expect to be catalyst for change.? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: "S.Fatima" Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:55 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? To: Rashmi Sawhney Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear Rashmi > Its fine if you wish to rest the case here. But I still think you > have been only reacting to my most casual and minor points (such > as 'smoking out' or the word Gujarati etc.) My main/original point > still remains unanswered: Isn't it hypocritical that we do nothing > about Modi in India, and have a problem if he travels to the US? > And what difference will it make if he can't go to the US? > Does anyone else have an answer to that? > > F > > > --- On Wed, 9/7/08, Rashmi Sawhney wrote: > > > From: Rashmi Sawhney > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean > anything?> To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Wednesday, 9 July, 2008, 10:36 PM > > Dera Fatima, > > > > Two brief points: > > > > 1. There is a measure of desperation in suggesting that the > > US should take > > responsibility for 'smoking out' Modi as > > they've been doing with individuals > > and nations they see as being problematic around the world. > > Although, > > privately, if they manage to isolate him and do this, I > > will join in your > > celebrations. > > 2. I have a fundamental issue with your point about whether > > Modi's non/entry > > is going to affect the business and trade of the people of > > Gujarat/ of > > Gujarati origin. > > The view: Gujarati = Hindu = pro-Modi/pro-Hindutva is > > problematic and > > furthers the very image and idea of Gujarat that the BJP > > have been > > projecting under Modi's leadership. There are many > > Gujaratis who are > > Muslims, Jains, Parsis and Christians, so the alignment of > > a linguistic > > community with a religious group is problematic. > > > > I will rest my case here, > > > > Rashmi > > > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 5:40 PM, S.Fatima > > wrote: > > > > > Dear Rashmi > > > I know my analogy was stupid, but I was mostly > > reacting to the report which > > > I quoted about the US State department revoking his > > visa earlier under the > > > Immigration and Nationality Act, "which prohibits > > foreign officials who are > > > responsible for or directly carried out, at any time, > > particularly severe > > > violations of religious freedom from obtaining U.S. > > visas". Now, why doesn't > > > such a law apply in India, why can't we punish him > > under similar accusations > > > here. I am sure the US govt is acting in this manner > > only on the basis of > > > the information provided to it by the Indian state. > > > > > > This is what I can't fathom: we in India continue > > to accept Modi, vote him > > > to power, allow him to do all that business of shining > > Gujarat, but we have > > > a problem if he goes to the US (as you say even the > > people outside the US > > > will be agitated if he enters US). So, why aren't > > we doing something about > > > him while he shines in Gujarat. Why doesn't the US > > bomb Gujarat to 'smoke > > > him' out, the way it does to the others it > > doesn't like. > > > > > > I have my doubts if his non-entry is going to affect > > the business and trade > > > of the Gujaratis. On the other hand, the rallying for > > his non-entry by the > > > so-called peace activists only leads to further divide > > between the NRI > > > saffronites and the secularists. The saffronites will > > get further motivated > > > to work against the cause of peace. More hate-dollars > > will pump into India. > > > > > > SF > > > > > > > > > --- On Wed, 9/7/08, Rashmi Sawhney > > wrote: > > > > > > > From: Rashmi Sawhney > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's > > non-entry into US mean anything? > > > > To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in > > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > Date: Wednesday, 9 July, 2008, 8:54 PM > > > > Dear Fatima, > > > > > > > > Your analogy, I must agree with you, may probably > > be wrong, > > > > but is certainly > > > > naive and unproductive. A second denial of entry > > into the > > > > US may be seen > > > > from within Modi camps as being detrimental to > > his efforts > > > > of furthering the > > > > lie about a vibrant Gujarat. There are enough > > numbers of > > > > religious > > > > fundamentalists in the Western world who support > > Modi's > > > > Hindutva ideology, > > > > who may probably not take to the visa refusal > > kindly. Had > > > > the US granted > > > > Modi entry so many anti Modi individuals and > > organisations > > > > around the world, > > > > including in India, would be agitaged about this > > too. > > > > > > > > It is not a question of whether the activists in > > the US and > > > > NRIs want > > > > to demonstrate that their sympathy for > > Gujarat's > > > > Muslims is more than > > > > activists in India - I think that is a reductive > > approach > > > > that defeats the > > > > purpose of a collective anti-Modi struggle. If > > you want to > > > > campaign against > > > > the USA's discriminatory and hypocritic > > policies, there > > > > are many other > > > > widely available issues that you could pick on - > > issues > > > > that affect common > > > > people without any clout or power. > > > > > > > > Most countries have their own 'germ-infested > > foods' > > > > that are rapidly > > > > destroying any social fabrics composed of > > difference - > > > > perhaps one could > > > > consider the option of deputing germs-infested > > foods from > > > > different > > > > societies to other parts of the world to see if > > they > > > > survive under hostile > > > > and foreign conditions. Or, if your approach to > > solving the > > > > problem of > > > > Gujarat is to 'export' the germ-infested > > food, > > > > please consider throwing it > > > > in the sea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 3:30 PM, S.Fatima > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Please see the report/appeal below, about > > another > > > > effort to stop the > > > > > Gujarat CM Narendra Modi from entering the > > US. While > > > > withholding all my > > > > > angst against what he allowed to happen in > > Gujarat in > > > > 2002 and the fact that > > > > > he shamelessly continues to be blind to the > > growing > > > > hatred against Muslims, > > > > > I wonder if the efforts by our activist > > friends in the > > > > US to stop him from > > > > > entering that soil mean anything other than > > a > > > > hypocracy. After all, he > > > > > continues to live and do what he pleases in > > > > India/Gujarat, but we won't > > > > > allow him in the US... Isn't that > > ridiculous? > > > > > > > > > > Are they trying to teach him a lesson, or > > punish him > > > > through this gesture? > > > > > Is his non-entry into the US going to badly > > affect the > > > > Gujaratis' business > > > > > and trade (which he is supposed to solemnize > > in New > > > > Jersey)? Not the least, > > > > > I think. So what is it then? Is it a > > symbolic > > > > rejection of his leadership? > > > > > Or do the NRI and American activist want to > > show that > > > > they care about > > > > > Gujarat's Muslims more than the > > activists in > > > > India? > > > > > > > > > > Although this analogy maybe completely > > wrong, but I > > > > can't help think this: > > > > > "We won't allow a germ-infested > > food that is > > > > killing thousands in India to > > > > > enter the US".... > > > > > Other thoughts are welcome. > > > > > > > > > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > USCIRF Urges Denial of U.S. Visa to Gujarat > > Chief > > > > Minister Narendra Modi > > > > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > > > July 8, 2008 > > > > > > > > > > Contact: Judith Ingram > > > > > Communications Director > > > > > (202) 523-3240, ext. 127 > > > > > > > > > > WASHINGTON - The United States Commission on > > > > International Religious > > > > > Freedom urges the U.S. State Department to > > reaffirm > > > > its past decision to > > > > > deny a tourist visa to Gujarat Chief > > Minister Narendra > > > > Modi, who has been > > > > > invited to attend a conference in New Jersey > > this > > > > August celebrating > > > > > Gujarati culture. Modi was previously > > denied entrance > > > > to the United States > > > > > due to his role in riots that overtook the > > Indian > > > > state of Gujarat from > > > > > February to May 2002 in which reportedly as > > many as > > > > 2,000 Muslims were > > > > > killed, thousands raped, and over 200,000 > > displaced. > > > > Numerous reports, > > > > > including reports of official bodies of the > > Government > > > > of India, have > > > > > documented the role of Modi's state > > government in > > > > the planning and execution > > > > > of the violence, and the failure to hold > > perpetrators > > > > accountable. > > > > > > > > > > Following Modi's invitation to attend > > conferences > > > > in the U.S. in 2005, the > > > > > Commission successfully urged the State > > Department to > > > > revoke Modi's U.S. > > > > > tourist visa. Despite pressure from the > > Indian > > > > government, the State > > > > > Department revoked his visa under the > > Immigration and > > > > Nationality Act (INA), > > > > > which prohibits foreign government officials > > who are > > > > "responsible for or > > > > > directly carried out, at any time, > > particularly severe > > > > violations of > > > > > religious freedom" from obtaining U.S. > > visas. > > > > This section was added to the > > > > > INA by the International Religious Freedom > > Act of > > > > 1998. The Commission once > > > > > again urges the State Department to announce > > > > Modi's ineligibility for a visa > > > > > under the terms of the INA. > > > > > > > > > > "We have not seen changes that would > > warrant a > > > > policy reversal," said > > > > > Commission Chair Felice D. Gaer. "As > > official > > > > bodies of the government of > > > > > India have found, Narendra Modi is culpable > > for the > > > > egregious and systematic > > > > > human rights abuses wrought against > > thousands of > > > > India's Muslims. Mr. Modi > > > > > must demonstrate to the State Department and > > to the > > > > American people why > > > > > he-as a person found to have aided and > > abetted gross > > > > violations of human > > > > > rights, including religious freedom-should > > now be > > > > eligible for a tourist > > > > > visa. > > > > > > > > > > Following the riots in 2002, India's > > National > > > > Human Rights Commission > > > > > issued a report that pointed to the role of > > Modi's > > > > government in the > > > > > systematic murder of Muslims and the > > calculated > > > > destruction of Muslim homes > > > > > and businesses. In 2003, the Indian central > > government > > > > found corruption and > > > > > anti-Muslim bias to be so pervasive in the > > Gujarat > > > > judiciary that riot cases > > > > > were shifted for trial to the neighboring > > state of > > > > Maharashtra. Despite > > > > > this action, the lack of justice for victims > > remains a > > > > serious concern, as > > > > > there have been very few court convictions > > in the six > > > > years since the > > > > > religion-based riots. In 2007, a series of > > articles in > > > > the Indian > > > > > publication Tehelka documented police > > officers and > > > > government officials on > > > > > audio and videotape confessing that they > > facilitated > > > > the violence, at times > > > > > at the direct behest of Modi. > > > > > > > > > > "The inaction of Gujarat's > > government and > > > > police force in the face of > > > > > severe violence against religious minorities > > is an > > > > inexcusable abuse of > > > > > international human rights > > obligations," Gaer > > > > said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. > > Get it now, > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > > media and the > > > > city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or > > yourname at rocketmail.com. > > > Click here http://in..promos.yahoo.com/address > > > > > > > > > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or > yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Jul 11 16:42:01 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:12:01 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] US-India Nuclear Agreement - Still a Bad Deal In-Reply-To: <4874EE20.4000300@gmail.com> References: <4874EE20.4000300@gmail.com> Message-ID: When a lame duck prime minister and governance by UPA which is struggling to cobble numbers to remain in power at any cost by appeasing regional satraps who have their own agendas of loots, likes of lalu in chara gotala, Devegowda which has the land mafia with him, TR Balu and raja selling spectrum for their gains as exposed in media, PM who is heading a minority government has no moral rights to mortgage the national interest to please his world bank boss, Bush, and gain kickbacks for his madam Sonia. It may also be noted that the spokespersons of Congress likes of Moily and Poojary also, Jayanthi have been discarded by thier own communes of votebanks, lost all elections and have been courtesans in the court by virtue of being court jesters to madam Sonia,? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Anivar Aravind Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008 10:29 pm Subject: [Reader-list] US-India Nuclear Agreement - Still a Bad Deal To: reader-list at sarai.net, fourth-estate-critique at googlegroups.com > > From: SANSAD > > As a constituent of US-India Working Group of Abolition 2000, > SANSAD is > pleased to disseminate this Media Release. Once again, we urge the > Canadian government (a member of Board of Governors of the > InternationalAtomic Energy Agency, as well as of the Nuclear > Suppliers Group) to not > support the highly problematic US-India Nuclear Deal. > > sansad > ******************* > > Media Release > July 8, 2008 > > US-India Nuclear Agreement - Still a Bad Deal: > Global Network of NGOs Urge International Community to Oppose > > The US-India Deal Working Group of Abolition 2000, a global > network of > over 2000 organizations in more than 90 countries working for a global > treaty to eliminate nuclear weapons, says that pressure to rush a > decision on the US-India Nuclear Agreement must be resisted. > > The organizations are calling upon key governments "to play an active > role in supporting measures that would ensure this controversial > proposal does not: further undermine the nuclear safeguards system and > efforts to prevent the proliferation of technologies that may be > used to > produce nuclear bomb material," or "in any way contribute to the > expansion of India's nuclear arsenal." > > This week, in defiance of opposition from Left Parties on whose > supportit depends, the Indian government is expected to circulate > a draft > nuclear Safeguards Agreement to the Board of Governors of the > International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). In doing so, it set in > motionthe remaining steps required to operationalize the US-India > bilateralnuclear agreement (known as the "123 Agreement" after the > relevantclause in the US Atomic Energy Act). Besides the > Safeguards Agreement, > the 45-nation Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) must grant India a special > exemption from its nuclear trade guidelines and finally the US > Congressmust accept the terms of the "123 Agreement". > > It took two years from the July 2005 Joint Statement by Prime Minister > Singh and President Bush until the text of the "123 Agreement" was > finalized and nearly a year has elapsed since then. After delaying for > so long, the decision at this time by the Indian government to > send the > draft Safeguards Agreement to the IAEA Board of Governors has more > to do > with the personal pride of Prime Minister Singh than with any > changes in > national or international circumstances. It appears that Mr Singh is > more concerned about keeping faith with President Bush than the > chancesthat the deal might actually be concluded. Most political > commentators,including proponents of the deal within the US > government and Congress, > believe that the required steps cannot be completed during the > life of > the Bush Administration. Furthermore, there is no guarantee that the > next President will wish to proceed with the deal in its current form. > > The US-India Nuclear Agreement was a bad deal when it was originally > conceived and nothing has changed to redeem it since then. All the > problems identified in a letter sent to the NSG and the IAEA by > 130 NGOs > and experts in January this year still remain. See the following link > for the text of and list of signatories of the international letter: > > _http://cnic.jp/english/topics/plutonium/proliferation/usindiafiles/nsgiaea7jan08.html_ > _ > _ > The deal effectively grants India the privileges of nuclear weapons > states (NWS), despite the fact that India developed nuclear weapons > outside the NPT regime. It doesn't even require India to accept > the same > responsibilities as other states: full-scope IAEA safeguards for > non-NWS > and a commitment from NWS to negotiate in good faith for the > eliminationof nuclear weapons. > > The IAEA and NSG must not to be stampeded into making decisions to fit > in with an unrealistic political time-table. The 35 countries > represented on the IAEA Board of Governors must consider the > possibilitythat special conditions demanded by India could > undermine the > credibility of the IAEA safeguards system itself. They must also > consider whether undertakings made by a government at the fag end > of its > tenure and facing strong domestic opposition would actually be > honored.The NSG must consider the implications for the international > non-proliferation regime of granting India a special exemption. These > are weighty matters which should not be judged precipitously. > > The IAEA Board of Governors and the Nuclear Suppliers Group of > countriesshould, as a minimum condition, hold firm to the longstanding > international effort to end all production of highly enriched uranium > and plutonium to make nuclear weapons. They should insist that the > U.S.-India deal be conditioned on an end to further production of > fissile materials for weapons purposes in South Asia. > > Contacts > JAPAN (English and Japanese) > _Tokyo:_ Philip White, Coordinator, Abolition 2000 US-India Deal > WorkingGroup +81-3-3357-3800 > _Toyako G8 Summit_: Akira Kawasaki, Peace Boat, 090-8310-5370, > kawasaki at peaceboat.gr.jp > INDIA: Sukla Sen, National Coordination Committee Member, > Coalition for > Nuclear Disarmament and Peace +91-22-6553-4377 > UNITED STATES: Daryl Kimball, Director, Arms Control Association, > +1-202-463-8270 > AUSTRALIA - John Hallam PND Nuclear Flashpoints 61-2-9810-2598 > 61-2-9319-4296 > > c/- Citizens' Nuclear Information Center, Tokyo, Japan > Tel: 81-3-3357-3800 Fax: 81-3-3357-3801 Email 1: white at cnic.jp > Web Site: > http://cnic.jp/english/topics/plutonium/proliferation/usindia.html > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Jul 11 16:44:25 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:14:25 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? In-Reply-To: <507200.51466.qm@web8403.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <91290c60807090824m63176a0akd07d3940eeafc904@mail.gmail.com> <507200.51466.qm@web8403.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Fathima, what about the saudi riyals and petro dollars that have flown to defend the accused into the "secular " trust and NGO of the Theesta and high payments to high profile "criminal" lawyers? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: "S.Fatima" Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008 10:11 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? To: Rashmi Sawhney Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear Rashmi > I know my analogy was stupid, but I was mostly reacting to the > report which I quoted about the US State department revoking his > visa earlier under the Immigration and Nationality Act, "which > prohibits foreign officials who are responsible for or directly > carried out, at any time, particularly severe violations of > religious freedom from obtaining U.S. visas". Now, why doesn't > such a law apply in India, why can't we punish him under similar > accusations here. I am sure the US govt is acting in this manner > only on the basis of the information provided to it by the Indian > state. > This is what I can't fathom: we in India continue to accept Modi, > vote him to power, allow him to do all that business of shining > Gujarat, but we have a problem if he goes to the US (as you say > even the people outside the US will be agitated if he enters US). > So, why aren't we doing something about him while he shines in > Gujarat. Why doesn't the US bomb Gujarat to 'smoke him' out, the > way it does to the others it doesn't like. > > I have my doubts if his non-entry is going to affect the business > and trade of the Gujaratis. On the other hand, the rallying for > his non-entry by the so-called peace activists only leads to > further divide between the NRI saffronites and the secularists. > The saffronites will get further motivated to work against the > cause of peace. More hate-dollars will pump into India. > > SF > > > --- On Wed, 9/7/08, Rashmi Sawhney wrote: > > > From: Rashmi Sawhney > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean > anything?> To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Wednesday, 9 July, 2008, 8:54 PM > > Dear Fatima, > > > > Your analogy, I must agree with you, may probably be wrong, > > but is certainly > > naive and unproductive. A second denial of entry into the > > US may be seen > > from within Modi camps as being detrimental to his efforts > > of furthering the > > lie about a vibrant Gujarat. There are enough numbers of > > religious > > fundamentalists in the Western world who support Modi's > > Hindutva ideology, > > who may probably not take to the visa refusal kindly. Had > > the US granted > > Modi entry so many anti Modi individuals and organisations > > around the world, > > including in India, would be agitaged about this too. > > > > It is not a question of whether the activists in the US and > > NRIs want > > to demonstrate that their sympathy for Gujarat's > > Muslims is more than > > activists in India - I think that is a reductive approach > > that defeats the > > purpose of a collective anti-Modi struggle. If you want to > > campaign against > > the USA's discriminatory and hypocritic policies, there > > are many other > > widely available issues that you could pick on - issues > > that affect common > > people without any clout or power. > > > > Most countries have their own 'germ-infested foods' > > that are rapidly > > destroying any social fabrics composed of difference - > > perhaps one could > > consider the option of deputing germs-infested foods from > > different > > societies to other parts of the world to see if they > > survive under hostile > > and foreign conditions. Or, if your approach to solving the > > problem of > > Gujarat is to 'export' the germ-infested food, > > please consider throwing it > > in the sea. > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 3:30 PM, S.Fatima > > wrote: > > > > > Please see the report/appeal below, about another > > effort to stop the > > > Gujarat CM Narendra Modi from entering the US. While > > withholding all my > > > angst against what he allowed to happen in Gujarat in > > 2002 and the fact that > > > he shamelessly continues to be blind to the growing > > hatred against Muslims, > > > I wonder if the efforts by our activist friends in the > > US to stop him from > > > entering that soil mean anything other than a > > hypocracy. After all, he > > > continues to live and do what he pleases in > > India/Gujarat, but we won't > > > allow him in the US... Isn't that ridiculous? > > > > > > Are they trying to teach him a lesson, or punish him > > through this gesture? > > > Is his non-entry into the US going to badly affect the > > Gujaratis' business > > > and trade (which he is supposed to solemnize in New > > Jersey)? Not the least, > > > I think. So what is it then? Is it a symbolic > > rejection of his leadership? > > > Or do the NRI and American activist want to show that > > they care about > > > Gujarat's Muslims more than the activists in > > India? > > > > > > Although this analogy maybe completely wrong, but I > > can't help think this: > > > "We won't allow a germ-infested food that is > > killing thousands in India to > > > enter the US".... > > > Other thoughts are welcome. > > > > > > ========== > > > > > > USCIRF Urges Denial of U.S. Visa to Gujarat Chief > > Minister Narendra Modi > > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > July 8, 2008 > > > > > > Contact: Judith Ingram > > > Communications Director > > > (202) 523-3240, ext. 127 > > > > > > WASHINGTON - The United States Commission on > > International Religious > > > Freedom urges the U.S. State Department to reaffirm > > its past decision to > > > deny a tourist visa to Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra > > Modi, who has been > > > invited to attend a conference in New Jersey this > > August celebrating > > > Gujarati culture. Modi was previously denied entrance > > to the United States > > > due to his role in riots that overtook the Indian > > state of Gujarat from > > > February to May 2002 in which reportedly as many as > > 2,000 Muslims were > > > killed, thousands raped, and over 200,000 displaced. > > Numerous reports, > > > including reports of official bodies of the Government > > of India, have > > > documented the role of Modi's state government in > > the planning and execution > > > of the violence, and the failure to hold perpetrators > > accountable. > > > > > > Following Modi's invitation to attend conferences > > in the U.S. in 2005, the > > > Commission successfully urged the State Department to > > revoke Modi's U.S. > > > tourist visa. Despite pressure from the Indian > > government, the State > > > Department revoked his visa under the Immigration and > > Nationality Act (INA), > > > which prohibits foreign government officials who are > > "responsible for or > > > directly carried out, at any time, particularly severe > > violations of > > > religious freedom" from obtaining U.S. visas. > > This section was added to the > > > INA by the International Religious Freedom Act of > > 1998. The Commission once > > > again urges the State Department to announce > > Modi's ineligibility for a visa > > > under the terms of the INA. > > > > > > "We have not seen changes that would warrant a > > policy reversal," said > > > Commission Chair Felice D. Gaer. "As official > > bodies of the government of > > > India have found, Narendra Modi is culpable for the > > egregious and systematic > > > human rights abuses wrought against thousands of > > India's Muslims. Mr. Modi > > > must demonstrate to the State Department and to the > > American people why > > > he-as a person found to have aided and abetted gross > > violations of human > > > rights, including religious freedom-should now be > > eligible for a tourist > > > visa. > > > > > > Following the riots in 2002, India's National > > Human Rights Commission > > > issued a report that pointed to the role of Modi's > > government in the > > > systematic murder of Muslims and the calculated > > destruction of Muslim homes > > > and businesses. In 2003, the Indian central government > > found corruption and > > > anti-Muslim bias to be so pervasive in the Gujarat > > judiciary that riot cases > > > were shifted for trial to the neighboring state of > > Maharashtra. Despite > > > this action, the lack of justice for victims remains a > > serious concern, as > > > there have been very few court convictions in the six > > years since the > > > religion-based riots. In 2007, a series of articles in > > the Indian > > > publication Tehelka documented police officers and > > government officials on > > > audio and videotape confessing that they facilitated > > the violence, at times > > > at the direct behest of Modi. > > > > > > "The inaction of Gujarat's government and > > police force in the face of > > > severe violence against religious minorities is an > > inexcusable abuse of > > > international human rights obligations," Gaer > > said. > > > > > > > > > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, > > on > > > > > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or > yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here > http://in..promos.yahoo.com/address > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Jul 11 16:47:08 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:17:08 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? In-Reply-To: <632184.67678.qm@web8415.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <91290c60807091006n6a8a7699ka9017befe0d0dd6@mail.gmail.com> <632184.67678.qm@web8415.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Fathima, it does not make any difference to secular credentials of the so called secularists that we have in India who wear the faith up their sleeves as petro dollaras flow in as usual to encourage violence with NGOs supporting, sheltoring and abetting the violence and terror. regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: "S.Fatima" Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:55 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? To: Rashmi Sawhney Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear Rashmi > Its fine if you wish to rest the case here. But I still think you > have been only reacting to my most casual and minor points (such > as 'smoking out' or the word Gujarati etc.) My main/original point > still remains unanswered: Isn't it hypocritical that we do nothing > about Modi in India, and have a problem if he travels to the US? > And what difference will it make if he can't go to the US? > Does anyone else have an answer to that? > > F > > > --- On Wed, 9/7/08, Rashmi Sawhney wrote: > > > From: Rashmi Sawhney > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean > anything?> To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Wednesday, 9 July, 2008, 10:36 PM > > Dera Fatima, > > > > Two brief points: > > > > 1. There is a measure of desperation in suggesting that the > > US should take > > responsibility for 'smoking out' Modi as > > they've been doing with individuals > > and nations they see as being problematic around the world. > > Although, > > privately, if they manage to isolate him and do this, I > > will join in your > > celebrations. > > 2. I have a fundamental issue with your point about whether > > Modi's non/entry > > is going to affect the business and trade of the people of > > Gujarat/ of > > Gujarati origin. > > The view: Gujarati = Hindu = pro-Modi/pro-Hindutva is > > problematic and > > furthers the very image and idea of Gujarat that the BJP > > have been > > projecting under Modi's leadership. There are many > > Gujaratis who are > > Muslims, Jains, Parsis and Christians, so the alignment of > > a linguistic > > community with a religious group is problematic. > > > > I will rest my case here, > > > > Rashmi > > > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 5:40 PM, S.Fatima > > wrote: > > > > > Dear Rashmi > > > I know my analogy was stupid, but I was mostly > > reacting to the report which > > > I quoted about the US State department revoking his > > visa earlier under the > > > Immigration and Nationality Act, "which prohibits > > foreign officials who are > > > responsible for or directly carried out, at any time, > > particularly severe > > > violations of religious freedom from obtaining U.S. > > visas". Now, why doesn't > > > such a law apply in India, why can't we punish him > > under similar accusations > > > here. I am sure the US govt is acting in this manner > > only on the basis of > > > the information provided to it by the Indian state. > > > > > > This is what I can't fathom: we in India continue > > to accept Modi, vote him > > > to power, allow him to do all that business of shining > > Gujarat, but we have > > > a problem if he goes to the US (as you say even the > > people outside the US > > > will be agitated if he enters US). So, why aren't > > we doing something about > > > him while he shines in Gujarat. Why doesn't the US > > bomb Gujarat to 'smoke > > > him' out, the way it does to the others it > > doesn't like. > > > > > > I have my doubts if his non-entry is going to affect > > the business and trade > > > of the Gujaratis. On the other hand, the rallying for > > his non-entry by the > > > so-called peace activists only leads to further divide > > between the NRI > > > saffronites and the secularists. The saffronites will > > get further motivated > > > to work against the cause of peace. More hate-dollars > > will pump into India. > > > > > > SF > > > > > > > > > --- On Wed, 9/7/08, Rashmi Sawhney > > wrote: > > > > > > > From: Rashmi Sawhney > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's > > non-entry into US mean anything? > > > > To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in > > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > Date: Wednesday, 9 July, 2008, 8:54 PM > > > > Dear Fatima, > > > > > > > > Your analogy, I must agree with you, may probably > > be wrong, > > > > but is certainly > > > > naive and unproductive. A second denial of entry > > into the > > > > US may be seen > > > > from within Modi camps as being detrimental to > > his efforts > > > > of furthering the > > > > lie about a vibrant Gujarat. There are enough > > numbers of > > > > religious > > > > fundamentalists in the Western world who support > > Modi's > > > > Hindutva ideology, > > > > who may probably not take to the visa refusal > > kindly. Had > > > > the US granted > > > > Modi entry so many anti Modi individuals and > > organisations > > > > around the world, > > > > including in India, would be agitaged about this > > too. > > > > > > > > It is not a question of whether the activists in > > the US and > > > > NRIs want > > > > to demonstrate that their sympathy for > > Gujarat's > > > > Muslims is more than > > > > activists in India - I think that is a reductive > > approach > > > > that defeats the > > > > purpose of a collective anti-Modi struggle. If > > you want to > > > > campaign against > > > > the USA's discriminatory and hypocritic > > policies, there > > > > are many other > > > > widely available issues that you could pick on - > > issues > > > > that affect common > > > > people without any clout or power. > > > > > > > > Most countries have their own 'germ-infested > > foods' > > > > that are rapidly > > > > destroying any social fabrics composed of > > difference - > > > > perhaps one could > > > > consider the option of deputing germs-infested > > foods from > > > > different > > > > societies to other parts of the world to see if > > they > > > > survive under hostile > > > > and foreign conditions. Or, if your approach to > > solving the > > > > problem of > > > > Gujarat is to 'export' the germ-infested > > food, > > > > please consider throwing it > > > > in the sea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 3:30 PM, S.Fatima > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Please see the report/appeal below, about > > another > > > > effort to stop the > > > > > Gujarat CM Narendra Modi from entering the > > US. While > > > > withholding all my > > > > > angst against what he allowed to happen in > > Gujarat in > > > > 2002 and the fact that > > > > > he shamelessly continues to be blind to the > > growing > > > > hatred against Muslims, > > > > > I wonder if the efforts by our activist > > friends in the > > > > US to stop him from > > > > > entering that soil mean anything other than > > a > > > > hypocracy. After all, he > > > > > continues to live and do what he pleases in > > > > India/Gujarat, but we won't > > > > > allow him in the US... Isn't that > > ridiculous? > > > > > > > > > > Are they trying to teach him a lesson, or > > punish him > > > > through this gesture? > > > > > Is his non-entry into the US going to badly > > affect the > > > > Gujaratis' business > > > > > and trade (which he is supposed to solemnize > > in New > > > > Jersey)? Not the least, > > > > > I think. So what is it then? Is it a > > symbolic > > > > rejection of his leadership? > > > > > Or do the NRI and American activist want to > > show that > > > > they care about > > > > > Gujarat's Muslims more than the > > activists in > > > > India? > > > > > > > > > > Although this analogy maybe completely > > wrong, but I > > > > can't help think this: > > > > > "We won't allow a germ-infested > > food that is > > > > killing thousands in India to > > > > > enter the US".... > > > > > Other thoughts are welcome. > > > > > > > > > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > USCIRF Urges Denial of U.S. Visa to Gujarat > > Chief > > > > Minister Narendra Modi > > > > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > > > July 8, 2008 > > > > > > > > > > Contact: Judith Ingram > > > > > Communications Director > > > > > (202) 523-3240, ext. 127 > > > > > > > > > > WASHINGTON - The United States Commission on > > > > International Religious > > > > > Freedom urges the U.S. State Department to > > reaffirm > > > > its past decision to > > > > > deny a tourist visa to Gujarat Chief > > Minister Narendra > > > > Modi, who has been > > > > > invited to attend a conference in New Jersey > > this > > > > August celebrating > > > > > Gujarati culture. Modi was previously > > denied entrance > > > > to the United States > > > > > due to his role in riots that overtook the > > Indian > > > > state of Gujarat from > > > > > February to May 2002 in which reportedly as > > many as > > > > 2,000 Muslims were > > > > > killed, thousands raped, and over 200,000 > > displaced. > > > > Numerous reports, > > > > > including reports of official bodies of the > > Government > > > > of India, have > > > > > documented the role of Modi's state > > government in > > > > the planning and execution > > > > > of the violence, and the failure to hold > > perpetrators > > > > accountable. > > > > > > > > > > Following Modi's invitation to attend > > conferences > > > > in the U.S. in 2005, the > > > > > Commission successfully urged the State > > Department to > > > > revoke Modi's U.S. > > > > > tourist visa. Despite pressure from the > > Indian > > > > government, the State > > > > > Department revoked his visa under the > > Immigration and > > > > Nationality Act (INA), > > > > > which prohibits foreign government officials > > who are > > > > "responsible for or > > > > > directly carried out, at any time, > > particularly severe > > > > violations of > > > > > religious freedom" from obtaining U.S. > > visas. > > > > This section was added to the > > > > > INA by the International Religious Freedom > > Act of > > > > 1998. The Commission once > > > > > again urges the State Department to announce > > > > Modi's ineligibility for a visa > > > > > under the terms of the INA. > > > > > > > > > > "We have not seen changes that would > > warrant a > > > > policy reversal," said > > > > > Commission Chair Felice D. Gaer. "As > > official > > > > bodies of the government of > > > > > India have found, Narendra Modi is culpable > > for the > > > > egregious and systematic > > > > > human rights abuses wrought against > > thousands of > > > > India's Muslims. Mr. Modi > > > > > must demonstrate to the State Department and > > to the > > > > American people why > > > > > he-as a person found to have aided and > > abetted gross > > > > violations of human > > > > > rights, including religious freedom-should > > now be > > > > eligible for a tourist > > > > > visa. > > > > > > > > > > Following the riots in 2002, India's > > National > > > > Human Rights Commission > > > > > issued a report that pointed to the role of > > Modi's > > > > government in the > > > > > systematic murder of Muslims and the > > calculated > > > > destruction of Muslim homes > > > > > and businesses. In 2003, the Indian central > > government > > > > found corruption and > > > > > anti-Muslim bias to be so pervasive in the > > Gujarat > > > > judiciary that riot cases > > > > > were shifted for trial to the neighboring > > state of > > > > Maharashtra. Despite > > > > > this action, the lack of justice for victims > > remains a > > > > serious concern, as > > > > > there have been very few court convictions > > in the six > > > > years since the > > > > > religion-based riots. In 2007, a series of > > articles in > > > > the Indian > > > > > publication Tehelka documented police > > officers and > > > > government officials on > > > > > audio and videotape confessing that they > > facilitated > > > > the violence, at times > > > > > at the direct behest of Modi. > > > > > > > > > > "The inaction of Gujarat's > > government and > > > > police force in the face of > > > > > severe violence against religious minorities > > is an > > > > inexcusable abuse of > > > > > international human rights > > obligations," Gaer > > > > said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. > > Get it now, > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > > media and the > > > > city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or > > yourname at rocketmail.com. > > > Click here http://in..promos.yahoo.com/address > > > > > > > > > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or > yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Jul 11 16:50:05 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:20:05 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? In-Reply-To: <91290c60807091006n6a8a7699ka9017befe0d0dd6@mail.gmail.com> References: <91290c60807090824m63176a0akd07d3940eeafc904@mail.gmail.com> <507200.51466.qm@web8403.mail.in.yahoo.com> <91290c60807091006n6a8a7699ka9017befe0d0dd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: For those with blinkered vision "gujrathis" mean only hindus. They are forgetting that every state has enough of other faiths iiving in harmony for decades before the fanatic assumption of majority and minority theory came to mark the vote banks in all faiths.! Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rashmi Sawhney Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008 10:37 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Dera Fatima, > > Two brief points: > > 1. There is a measure of desperation in suggesting that the US > should take > responsibility for 'smoking out' Modi as they've been doing with > individualsand nations they see as being problematic around the > world. Although, > privately, if they manage to isolate him and do this, I will join > in your > celebrations. > 2. I have a fundamental issue with your point about whether Modi's > non/entryis going to affect the business and trade of the people > of Gujarat/ of > Gujarati origin. > The view: Gujarati = Hindu = pro-Modi/pro-Hindutva is problematic and > furthers the very image and idea of Gujarat that the BJP have been > projecting under Modi's leadership. There are many Gujaratis who are > Muslims, Jains, Parsis and Christians, so the alignment of a > linguisticcommunity with a religious group is problematic. > > I will rest my case here, > > Rashmi > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 5:40 PM, S.Fatima > wrote: > > > Dear Rashmi > > I know my analogy was stupid, but I was mostly reacting to the > report which > > I quoted about the US State department revoking his visa earlier > under the > > Immigration and Nationality Act, "which prohibits foreign > officials who are > > responsible for or directly carried out, at any time, > particularly severe > > violations of religious freedom from obtaining U.S. visas". Now, > why doesn't > > such a law apply in India, why can't we punish him under similar > accusations> here. I am sure the US govt is acting in this manner > only on the basis of > > the information provided to it by the Indian state. > > > > This is what I can't fathom: we in India continue to accept > Modi, vote him > > to power, allow him to do all that business of shining Gujarat, > but we have > > a problem if he goes to the US (as you say even the people > outside the US > > will be agitated if he enters US). So, why aren't we doing > something about > > him while he shines in Gujarat. Why doesn't the US bomb Gujarat > to 'smoke > > him' out, the way it does to the others it doesn't like. > > > > I have my doubts if his non-entry is going to affect the > business and trade > > of the Gujaratis. On the other hand, the rallying for his non- > entry by the > > so-called peace activists only leads to further divide between > the NRI > > saffronites and the secularists. The saffronites will get > further motivated > > to work against the cause of peace. More hate-dollars will pump > into India. > > > > SF > > > > > > --- On Wed, 9/7/08, Rashmi Sawhney wrote: > > > > > From: Rashmi Sawhney > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean > anything?> > To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Date: Wednesday, 9 July, 2008, 8:54 PM > > > Dear Fatima, > > > > > > Your analogy, I must agree with you, may probably be wrong, > > > but is certainly > > > naive and unproductive. A second denial of entry into the > > > US may be seen > > > from within Modi camps as being detrimental to his efforts > > > of furthering the > > > lie about a vibrant Gujarat. There are enough numbers of > > > religious > > > fundamentalists in the Western world who support Modi's > > > Hindutva ideology, > > > who may probably not take to the visa refusal kindly. Had > > > the US granted > > > Modi entry so many anti Modi individuals and organisations > > > around the world, > > > including in India, would be agitaged about this too. > > > > > > It is not a question of whether the activists in the US and > > > NRIs want > > > to demonstrate that their sympathy for Gujarat's > > > Muslims is more than > > > activists in India - I think that is a reductive approach > > > that defeats the > > > purpose of a collective anti-Modi struggle. If you want to > > > campaign against > > > the USA's discriminatory and hypocritic policies, there > > > are many other > > > widely available issues that you could pick on - issues > > > that affect common > > > people without any clout or power. > > > > > > Most countries have their own 'germ-infested foods' > > > that are rapidly > > > destroying any social fabrics composed of difference - > > > perhaps one could > > > consider the option of deputing germs-infested foods from > > > different > > > societies to other parts of the world to see if they > > > survive under hostile > > > and foreign conditions. Or, if your approach to solving the > > > problem of > > > Gujarat is to 'export' the germ-infested food, > > > please consider throwing it > > > in the sea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 3:30 PM, S.Fatima > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Please see the report/appeal below, about another > > > effort to stop the > > > > Gujarat CM Narendra Modi from entering the US. While > > > withholding all my > > > > angst against what he allowed to happen in Gujarat in > > > 2002 and the fact that > > > > he shamelessly continues to be blind to the growing > > > hatred against Muslims, > > > > I wonder if the efforts by our activist friends in the > > > US to stop him from > > > > entering that soil mean anything other than a > > > hypocracy. After all, he > > > > continues to live and do what he pleases in > > > India/Gujarat, but we won't > > > > allow him in the US... Isn't that ridiculous? > > > > > > > > Are they trying to teach him a lesson, or punish him > > > through this gesture? > > > > Is his non-entry into the US going to badly affect the > > > Gujaratis' business > > > > and trade (which he is supposed to solemnize in New > > > Jersey)? Not the least, > > > > I think. So what is it then? Is it a symbolic > > > rejection of his leadership? > > > > Or do the NRI and American activist want to show that > > > they care about > > > > Gujarat's Muslims more than the activists in > > > India? > > > > > > > > Although this analogy maybe completely wrong, but I > > > can't help think this: > > > > "We won't allow a germ-infested food that is > > > killing thousands in India to > > > > enter the US".... > > > > Other thoughts are welcome. > > > > > > > > ========== > > > > > > > > USCIRF Urges Denial of U.S. Visa to Gujarat Chief > > > Minister Narendra Modi > > > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > > July 8, 2008 > > > > > > > > Contact: Judith Ingram > > > > Communications Director > > > > (202) 523-3240, ext. 127 > > > > > > > > WASHINGTON - The United States Commission on > > > International Religious > > > > Freedom urges the U.S. State Department to reaffirm > > > its past decision to > > > > deny a tourist visa to Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra > > > Modi, who has been > > > > invited to attend a conference in New Jersey this > > > August celebrating > > > > Gujarati culture. Modi was previously denied entrance > > > to the United States > > > > due to his role in riots that overtook the Indian > > > state of Gujarat from > > > > February to May 2002 in which reportedly as many as > > > 2,000 Muslims were > > > > killed, thousands raped, and over 200,000 displaced. > > > Numerous reports, > > > > including reports of official bodies of the Government > > > of India, have > > > > documented the role of Modi's state government in > > > the planning and execution > > > > of the violence, and the failure to hold perpetrators > > > accountable. > > > > > > > > Following Modi's invitation to attend conferences > > > in the U.S. in 2005, the > > > > Commission successfully urged the State Department to > > > revoke Modi's U.S. > > > > tourist visa. Despite pressure from the Indian > > > government, the State > > > > Department revoked his visa under the Immigration and > > > Nationality Act (INA), > > > > which prohibits foreign government officials who are > > > "responsible for or > > > > directly carried out, at any time, particularly severe > > > violations of > > > > religious freedom" from obtaining U.S. visas. > > > This section was added to the > > > > INA by the International Religious Freedom Act of > > > 1998. The Commission once > > > > again urges the State Department to announce > > > Modi's ineligibility for a visa > > > > under the terms of the INA. > > > > > > > > "We have not seen changes that would warrant a > > > policy reversal," said > > > > Commission Chair Felice D. Gaer. "As official > > > bodies of the government of > > > > India have found, Narendra Modi is culpable for the > > > egregious and systematic > > > > human rights abuses wrought against thousands of > > > India's Muslims. Mr. Modi > > > > must demonstrate to the State Department and to the > > > American people why > > > > he-as a person found to have aided and abetted gross > > > violations of human > > > > rights, including religious freedom-should now be > > > eligible for a tourist > > > > visa. > > > > > > > > Following the riots in 2002, India's National > > > Human Rights Commission > > > > issued a report that pointed to the role of Modi's > > > government in the > > > > systematic murder of Muslims and the calculated > > > destruction of Muslim homes > > > > and businesses. In 2003, the Indian central government > > > found corruption and > > > > anti-Muslim bias to be so pervasive in the Gujarat > > > judiciary that riot cases > > > > were shifted for trial to the neighboring state of > > > Maharashtra. Despite > > > > this action, the lack of justice for victims remains a > > > serious concern, as > > > > there have been very few court convictions in the six > > > years since the > > > > religion-based riots. In 2007, a series of articles in > > > the Indian > > > > publication Tehelka documented police officers and > > > government officials on > > > > audio and videotape confessing that they facilitated > > > the violence, at times > > > > at the direct behest of Modi. > > > > > > > > "The inaction of Gujarat's government and > > > police force in the face of > > > > severe violence against religious minorities is an > > > inexcusable abuse of > > > > international human rights obligations," Gaer > > > said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, > > > on > > > > > > > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools- > 08.html/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > > city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or > yourname at rocketmail.com.> Click here > http://in..promos.yahoo.com/address> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Jul 11 16:55:00 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:25:00 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] The real reason why oil prices are rising - M RVenkatesh (In Rediff) In-Reply-To: <828057.11989.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <828057.11989.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ha, Ha, and our Mr. Honest PM wants N-"deal" in national interest where in India will be buying thru cartel in washington uranium for 4 % of energy needs with mortgage of future of our next generation of indians ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008 7:11 pm Subject: [Reader-list] The real reason why oil prices are rising - M RVenkatesh (In Rediff) To: sarai list >   > An interesting perspective. >   > http://www.rediff.com/money/2008/jun/02mrv.htm >   > The real reason why oil prices are rising > > M R Venkatesh | June 02, 2008 | 15:02 IST > > > By now it is becoming too obvious that the United States is > playing the oil game all over again. And this is the desperate > gamble of a country whose economy is neck deep in trouble. >   > Given this scenario, managing prices of oil is central to the US > economic architecture. Expectedly, this gamble has been played in > a great alliance between the US government, US financial sector > and the media. >   > I have earlier written about: > > The impending collapse of the US dollar on account of the inherent > weakness in the US economy caused by its structural weakness as > reflected in the sub-prime crisis; > The repeated softening of the interest rates in the US that has > the potency to kill the US dollar; and > How the fall in the US dollar suits the US corporate sector, > especially its omnipotent financial sector. > > Naturally, since the past few years, the US financial sector has > begun to turn its attention from currency and stock markets to > commodity markets. According to The Economist, about $260 billion > has been invested into the commodity market -- up nearly 20 times > from what it was in 2003. >   > Coinciding with a weak dollar and this speculative interest of the > US financial sector, prices of commodities have soared globally. >   > And most of these investments are bets placed by hedge and pension > funds, always on the lookout for risky but high-yielding > investments. What is indeed interesting to note here is that > unlike margin requirements for stocks which are as high as 50 per > cent in many markets, the margin requirements for commodities is a > mere 5-7 per cent. >   > This implies that with an outlay of a mere $260 billion these > speculators would be able to take positions of approximately $5 > trillion -- yes, $5 trillion! -- in the futures markets. It is > estimated that half of these are bets placed on oil. >   > > > Readers may note that oil is internationally traded in New York > and London and denominated in US dollar only. Naturally, it has > been opined by experts that since the advent of oil futures, oil > prices are no longer controlled by OPEC (Organization of Petroleum > Exporting Countries). Rather, it is now done by Wall Street. >   > This tectonic shift in the determination of international oil > prices from the hands of producers to the hands of speculators is > crucial to understanding the oil price rise. >   > Today's oil prices are believed to be determined by the four Anglo- > American financial companies-turned-oil traders, viz., Goldman > Sachs, Citigroup, J P Morgan Chase, and Morgan Stanley. It is only > they who have any idea about who is entering into oil futures or > derivative contracts. It is also they who are placing bets on oil > prices and in the process ensuring that the prices of oil futures > go up by the day. >   > But how does the increase in the price of this oil in the futures > market determine the prices of oil in the spot markets? Crucially, > does speculation in oil influence and determine the prices of oil > in the spot markets? >   > Answering these questions as to whether speculation has > supercharged the demand for oil The Economist, in its recent > issue, states: 'But that is plain wrong. Such speculators do not > own real oil. Every barrel they buy in the futures markets they > sell back again before the contract ends. That may raise the price > of 'paper barrels,' but not of the black stuff refiners turn into > petrol. It is true that high futures prices could lead someone to > hoard oil today in the hope of a higher price tomorrow. But > inventories are not especially full just now and there are few > signs of hoarding.' >   > On both counts -- that speculation in oil is not pushing up oil > prices, as well as on the issue of the build-up of inventories -- > the venerable Economist is wrong. >   > The finding of US Senate Committee in 2006 >   > In June 2006, when the oil price in the futures markets was about > $60 a barrel, a Senate Committee in the US probed the role of > market speculation in oil and gas prices. The report points out > that large purchase of crude oil futures contracts by speculators > has, in effect, created additional demand for oil and in the > process driven up the future prices of oil. > The report further stated that it was 'difficult to quantify the > effect of speculation on prices,' but concluded that 'there is > substantial evidence that the large amount of speculation in the > current market has significantly increased prices.' >   > The report further estimated that speculative purchases of oil > futures had added as much as $20-25 per barrel to the then > prevailing price of $60 per barrel. In today's prices of > approximately $130 per barrel, this means that approximately $100 > per barrel could be attributed to speculation! >   > But the report found a serious loophole in the US regulation of > oil derivatives trading, which according to experts could allow > even a 'herd of elephants to walk to through it.' The report > pointed out that US energy futures were traded on regulated > exchanges within the US and subjected to extensive oversight by > the Commodities Future Trading Commission (CFTC) -- the US > regulator for commodity futures market. >   > In recent years, the report however pointed out to the tremendous > growth in the trading of contracts which were traded on > unregulated OTC (over-the-counter) electronic markets. > Interestingly, the report pointed out that the trading of energy > commodities by large firms on OTC electronic exchanges was > exempted from CFTC oversight by a provision inserted at the behest > of Enron into the Commodity Futures Modernization Act in 2000. >   > The report concludes that consequential impact on account of lack > of market oversight has been 'substantial.' >   > NYMEX (New York Mercantile Exchange) traders are required to keep > records of all trades and report large trades to the CFTC enabling > it to gauge the extent of speculation in the markets and to > detect, prevent, and prosecute price manipulation. In contrast, > however, traders on unregulated OTC electronic exchanges are not > required to keep records or file any information with the CFTC as > these trades are exempt from its oversight. >   > Consequently, as there is no monitoring of such trading by the > oversight body, the committee believes that it allows speculators > to indulge in price manipulation. >   > Finally, the report concludes that to a certain extent, whether or > not any level of speculation is 'excessive' lies entirely in the > eye of the beholder. In the absence of data, however, it is > impossible to begin the analysis or engage in an informed debate > over whether our energy markets are functioning properly or are in > the midst of a speculative bubble. >   > That was two years back. And much water has flown in the > Mississippi since then. >   >   > The link to the spot markets >   > Now to answer the second leg of the question: how speculators are > able to translate the future prices into spot prices. >   > The answer to this question is fairly simple. After all, oil price > is highly inelastic -- i.e. even a substantial increase in price > does not alter the consumption pattern. No wonder, a mere 3-4 per > cent annual global growth has translated into more than a 40 per > cent annual increase in prices for the past three or four years. >   > But there is more to it. One may note that the world supply and > demand is evenly matched at about 85 million barrels every day. > Only if supplies exceed demand by a substantial margin can any > downward pressure on oil prices be created. In contrast, if > someone with deep pockets picks up even a small quantity of oil, > it dramatically alters the delicate global demand-supply gap, > creating enormous upward pressure on prices. >   > What is interesting to note is that the US strategic oil reserves > were at approximately 350 million barrels for a decade till 2006. > However, for the past year and a half these reserves have doubled > to more than 700 million barrels. Naturally, this build-up of > strategic oil reserves by the US (of 350 million barrels) is > adding enormous pressure on the oil demand and consequently its > prices.  > Do the oil speculators know of this reserves build-up by the US > and are indulging in rampant speculation? Are they acting in > tandem with the US government? Worse still, are they bordering on > recklessness knowing fully well that if the oil prices fall the US > government will be forced to a?'Bears Stearns' on them and bail > them out? One is not sure. >   > But who foots bill at such high prices? At an average price of > even $100 per barrel, the entire cost for the purchase of this > additional 350 million barrels by the US works out to a mere $35 > billion. Needless to emphasise, this can be funded by the US by > allowing it currency printing presses to work overtime. After all, > it has a currency that is acceptable globally and people worldwide > are willing to exchange it for precious oil. >   > No wonder?Goldman Sachs predicts that oil will touch $200 to a > barrel shortly, knowing fully well that the US government will > back its prediction. >   > And, in the past three years alone the world has paid an estimated > additional $3 trillion for its oil purchases. Oil speculators (and > not oil producers) are the biggest beneficiaries of this price > increase.  > In the process, the US has been able to keep the value of the US > dollar afloat -- perhaps at an extra cost of a mere $35 billion to > its exchequer! >   > The global crude oil price rise is complex, sinister and beyond > innocent economic theories of demand and supply. It is > speculation, geopolitics and much more. Obviously, there is a > symbiotic link between the US, the US dollar and the oil prices. > And unless this truth is understood and the link broken, oil > prices cannot be controlled. >   > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From krishnanrr at rediffmail.com Fri Jul 11 17:39:21 2008 From: krishnanrr at rediffmail.com (Radhakrishnan) Date: 11 Jul 2008 12:09:21 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] On Modi's entry in US Message-ID: <20080711120921.18047.qmail@f4mail205.rediffmail.com> There has been too many mails about the visit of Modi to US.Ironically its raised by the very same people who want to make that extra dollars through Human Rights issue and Corporate NGOs but are too shy to approach this issue to the Judiciary or Civil Society. As one of the respondent had mentioned such acts of doesn't augur well for those eho adhere to democratic norms. They are also too inteeligent or naive to ignore other acts of human rights violation in the Northeast,JK (plight of Pundits & MUslims) and the continous subjugation of Dalits...probably they aren't lucarative enough in terms of FRCA..etc ....all one seeks is some amount of honesty in scholarship..research and activism.. Moreover one has to caution others from falling in the trap of coalitions and campaign against violence and genocide promted by any kind of faith based organisation. Since one kind of communalism cannot be countered by other kind which seems to the case in the US. This would also strethen those forces which have been at the forefront to promote unilateralist policies of the US around the world and the prevalence of an unequal social order within their country. Radhakrishnan   On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote : >Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > >You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Farewell to our Humid Weimar (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) > 2. Re: does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? > (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) > 3. Re: US-India Nuclear Agreement - Still a Bad Deal > (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) > 4. Re: does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? > (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:37:34 +0530 > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta >Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >To: sarai list >Message-ID: <7F36D1DA-4DCE-42EF-A812-2887B32CFE94 at sarai.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; delsp=yes; format=flowed > >Dear All, > >I find it sad that all those who live in India are being sent >headlong into a period of turbulence following the unilateral >decision by the so-called Left parties in response to the Indo-US >Nuclear Deal. In all likelihood, if the government of the day fails >to pass the test of numbers on the floor of parliament, India will >head straight for early elections. The likely beneficiary of this >process will be the BJP, and if, going by the extensive coverage that >the Hindu, usually the mainstream media mouthpiece of the so called >Communist Party of India (Marxist) has given to L.K. Advani (the >billowing PM in waiting of the BJP), then, it needs to be read as a >sign of things to come. A covert entente cordiale between the so >called Left and the Right in Indian politics. Or, in other words, >Prakash Karat handing L.K. Advani the prime-ministership on a >platter. A decade or so ago, while Harkrishen Singh Surjeet was >'managing' the Congress on behalf of the CPI(M), a similar covert >entente cordiale between the so called Left and the Congress (which >matured into a full fledged partnership) was as unthinkable, as what >augurs, when the 'Patriots' of the Left and the Right begin dancing >their secret tango. > >In this entire episode, everyone has come out in glorious colours, >the Congress with its pathetic kow-towing to US interests under the >stewardship of George Bush, the Left with its myopic Nuclear >patriotism and its abdication of any responsibility towards >developing a programme that is critical of the Indian state's Nuclear >military ambitions, the BJP with its sabre rattling, the Socialists >with their usual cynical opportunism. > >And so ends the brief humid Weimar of the Indian Republic. Let us >celebrate its demise by recalling how pallid and banal it has already >become. > >I guess we should all now get accustomed to the idea of Narendra >Modi as a possible Union Minister of the Interior in the forthcoming >years. > >best > >Shuddha > > >Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:11:19 +0500 > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean > anything? >To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in >Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Sadia, > what one should do in civilised democratic society as citizen of the society. ? > > As a citizen I can vote for him or vote for another candidate. What do you mean by doing some thing, you are encouraging citizens to take law into their hands be barbaric to dispense what you seem and deem it as right. ? Then what is the difference between you and Dawood Ibrahim or Al queada chief. ? > > Freedom means as you are free you have social responsibilty as well beyond religion and faith as human, it is better you remember that overwhelming citizens have voted for the party and its leader to rule the state and govern for the assigned term of five years. In democratic way, you can vote him out, do not nurse any other ideas as you are cause for action and then reaction which can be very traumatic for all citizens as violence only begets more of it, in the process of blasts, the blasts do not recognise the victims religion and faith to strike miseries. > > It is my sincere request to stop this nonsense of action and reactions and if possible generate awareness if any bad acts done personally by Modi with evidence, educate the voter about good governance in democratic system, thus expect to be catalyst for change.? > > Regards. > > > >----- Original Message ----- > From: "S.Fatima" >Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:55 am >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? >To: Rashmi Sawhney >Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Dear Rashmi > > Its fine if you wish to rest the case here. But I still think you > > have been only reacting to my most casual and minor points (such > > as 'smoking out' or the word Gujarati etc.) My main/original point > > still remains unanswered: Isn't it hypocritical that we do nothing > > about Modi in India, and have a problem if he travels to the US? > > And what difference will it make if he can't go to the US? > > Does anyone else have an answer to that? > > > > F > > > > > > --- On Wed, 9/7/08, Rashmi Sawhney wrote: > > > > > From: Rashmi Sawhney > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean > > anything?> To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Date: Wednesday, 9 July, 2008, 10:36 PM > > > Dera Fatima, > > > > > > Two brief points: > > > > > > 1. There is a measure of desperation in suggesting that the > > > US should take > > > responsibility for 'smoking out' Modi as > > > they've been doing with individuals > > > and nations they see as being problematic around the world. > > > Although, > > > privately, if they manage to isolate him and do this, I > > > will join in your > > > celebrations. > > > 2. I have a fundamental issue with your point about whether > > > Modi's non/entry > > > is going to affect the business and trade of the people of > > > Gujarat/ of > > > Gujarati origin. > > > The view: Gujarati = Hindu = pro-Modi/pro-Hindutva is > > > problematic and > > > furthers the very image and idea of Gujarat that the BJP > > > have been > > > projecting under Modi's leadership. There are many > > > Gujaratis who are > > > Muslims, Jains, Parsis and Christians, so the alignment of > > > a linguistic > > > community with a religious group is problematic. > > > > > > I will rest my case here, > > > > > > Rashmi > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 5:40 PM, S.Fatima > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Rashmi > > > > I know my analogy was stupid, but I was mostly > > > reacting to the report which > > > > I quoted about the US State department revoking his > > > visa earlier under the > > > > Immigration and Nationality Act, "which prohibits > > > foreign officials who are > > > > responsible for or directly carried out, at any time, > > > particularly severe > > > > violations of religious freedom from obtaining U.S. > > > visas". Now, why doesn't > > > > such a law apply in India, why can't we punish him > > > under similar accusations > > > > here. I am sure the US govt is acting in this manner > > > only on the basis of > > > > the information provided to it by the Indian state. > > > > > > > > This is what I can't fathom: we in India continue > > > to accept Modi, vote him > > > > to power, allow him to do all that business of shining > > > Gujarat, but we have > > > > a problem if he goes to the US (as you say even the > > > people outside the US > > > > will be agitated if he enters US). So, why aren't > > > we doing something about > > > > him while he shines in Gujarat. Why doesn't the US > > > bomb Gujarat to 'smoke > > > > him' out, the way it does to the others it > > > doesn't like. > > > > > > > > I have my doubts if his non-entry is going to affect > > > the business and trade > > > > of the Gujaratis. On the other hand, the rallying for > > > his non-entry by the > > > > so-called peace activists only leads to further divide > > > between the NRI > > > > saffronites and the secularists. The saffronites will > > > get further motivated > > > > to work against the cause of peace. More hate-dollars > > > will pump into India. > > > > > > > > SF > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Wed, 9/7/08, Rashmi Sawhney > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Rashmi Sawhney > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's > > > non-entry into US mean anything? > > > > > To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in > > > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > Date: Wednesday, 9 July, 2008, 8:54 PM > > > > > Dear Fatima, > > > > > > > > > > Your analogy, I must agree with you, may probably > > > be wrong, > > > > > but is certainly > > > > > naive and unproductive. A second denial of entry > > > into the > > > > > US may be seen > > > > > from within Modi camps as being detrimental to > > > his efforts > > > > > of furthering the > > > > > lie about a vibrant Gujarat. There are enough > > > numbers of > > > > > religious > > > > > fundamentalists in the Western world who support > > > Modi's > > > > > Hindutva ideology, > > > > > who may probably not take to the visa refusal > > > kindly. Had > > > > > the US granted > > > > > Modi entry so many anti Modi individuals and > > > organisations > > > > > around the world, > > > > > including in India, would be agitaged about this > > > too. > > > > > > > > > > It is not a question of whether the activists in > > > the US and > > > > > NRIs want > > > > > to demonstrate that their sympathy for > > > Gujarat's > > > > > Muslims is more than > > > > > activists in India - I think that is a reductive > > > approach > > > > > that defeats the > > > > > purpose of a collective anti-Modi struggle. If > > > you want to > > > > > campaign against > > > > > the USA's discriminatory and hypocritic > > > policies, there > > > > > are many other > > > > > widely available issues that you could pick on - > > > issues > > > > > that affect common > > > > > people without any clout or power. > > > > > > > > > > Most countries have their own 'germ-infested > > > foods' > > > > > that are rapidly > > > > > destroying any social fabrics composed of > > > difference - > > > > > perhaps one could > > > > > consider the option of deputing germs-infested > > > foods from > > > > > different > > > > > societies to other parts of the world to see if > > > they > > > > > survive under hostile > > > > > and foreign conditions. Or, if your approach to > > > solving the > > > > > problem of > > > > > Gujarat is to 'export' the germ-infested > > > food, > > > > > please consider throwing it > > > > > in the sea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 3:30 PM, S.Fatima > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Please see the report/appeal below, about > > > another > > > > > effort to stop the > > > > > > Gujarat CM Narendra Modi from entering the > > > US. While > > > > > withholding all my > > > > > > angst against what he allowed to happen in > > > Gujarat in > > > > > 2002 and the fact that > > > > > > he shamelessly continues to be blind to the > > > growing > > > > > hatred against Muslims, > > > > > > I wonder if the efforts by our activist > > > friends in the > > > > > US to stop him from > > > > > > entering that soil mean anything other than > > > a > > > > > hypocracy. After all, he > > > > > > continues to live and do what he pleases in > > > > > India/Gujarat, but we won't > > > > > > allow him in the US... Isn't that > > > ridiculous? > > > > > > > > > > > > Are they trying to teach him a lesson, or > > > punish him > > > > > through this gesture? > > > > > > Is his non-entry into the US going to badly > > > affect the > > > > > Gujaratis' business > > > > > > and trade (which he is supposed to solemnize > > > in New > > > > > Jersey)? Not the least, > > > > > > I think. So what is it then? Is it a > > > symbolic > > > > > rejection of his leadership? > > > > > > Or do the NRI and American activist want to > > > show that > > > > > they care about > > > > > > Gujarat's Muslims more than the > > > activists in > > > > > India? > > > > > > > > > > > > Although this analogy maybe completely > > > wrong, but I > > > > > can't help think this: > > > > > > "We won't allow a germ-infested > > > food that is > > > > > killing thousands in India to > > > > > > enter the US".... > > > > > > Other thoughts are welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > > > USCIRF Urges Denial of U.S. Visa to Gujarat > > > Chief > > > > > Minister Narendra Modi > > > > > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > > > > July 8, 2008 > > > > > > > > > > > > Contact: Judith Ingram > > > > > > Communications Director > > > > > > (202) 523-3240, ext. 127 > > > > > > > > > > > > WASHINGTON - The United States Commission on > > > > > International Religious > > > > > > Freedom urges the U.S. State Department to > > > reaffirm > > > > > its past decision to > > > > > > deny a tourist visa to Gujarat Chief > > > Minister Narendra > > > > > Modi, who has been > > > > > > invited to attend a conference in New Jersey > > > this > > > > > August celebrating > > > > > > Gujarati culture. Modi was previously > > > denied entrance > > > > > to the United States > > > > > > due to his role in riots that overtook the > > > Indian > > > > > state of Gujarat from > > > > > > February to May 2002 in which reportedly as > > > many as > > > > > 2,000 Muslims were > > > > > > killed, thousands raped, and over 200,000 > > > displaced. > > > > > Numerous reports, > > > > > > including reports of official bodies of the > > > Government > > > > > of India, have > > > > > > documented the role of Modi's state > > > government in > > > > > the planning and execution > > > > > > of the violence, and the failure to hold > > > perpetrators > > > > > accountable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Following Modi's invitation to attend > > > conferences > > > > > in the U.S. in 2005, the > > > > > > Commission successfully urged the State > > > Department to > > > > > revoke Modi's U.S. > > > > > > tourist visa. Despite pressure from the > > > Indian > > > > > government, the State > > > > > > Department revoked his visa under the > > > Immigration and > > > > > Nationality Act (INA), > > > > > > which prohibits foreign government officials > > > who are > > > > > "responsible for or > > > > > > directly carried out, at any time, > > > particularly severe > > > > > violations of > > > > > > religious freedom" from obtaining U.S. > > > visas. > > > > > This section was added to the > > > > > > INA by the International Religious Freedom > > > Act of > > > > > 1998. The Commission once > > > > > > again urges the State Department to announce > > > > > Modi's ineligibility for a visa > > > > > > under the terms of the INA. > > > > > > > > > > > > "We have not seen changes that would > > > warrant a > > > > > policy reversal," said > > > > > > Commission Chair Felice D. Gaer. "As > > > official > > > > > bodies of the government of > > > > > > India have found, Narendra Modi is culpable > > > for the > > > > > egregious and systematic > > > > > > human rights abuses wrought against > > > thousands of > > > > > India's Muslims. Mr. Modi > > > > > > must demonstrate to the State Department and > > > to the > > > > > American people why > > > > > > he-as a person found to have aided and > > > abetted gross > > > > > violations of human > > > > > > rights, including religious freedom-should > > > now be > > > > > eligible for a tourist > > > > > > visa. > > > > > > > > > > > > Following the riots in 2002, India's > > > National > > > > > Human Rights Commission > > > > > > issued a report that pointed to the role of > > > Modi's > > > > > government in the > > > > > > systematic murder of Muslims and the > > > calculated > > > > > destruction of Muslim homes > > > > > > and businesses. In 2003, the Indian central > > > government > > > > > found corruption and > > > > > > anti-Muslim bias to be so pervasive in the > > > Gujarat > > > > > judiciary that riot cases > > > > > > were shifted for trial to the neighboring > > > state of > > > > > Maharashtra. Despite > > > > > > this action, the lack of justice for victims > > > remains a > > > > > serious concern, as > > > > > > there have been very few court convictions > > > in the six > > > > > years since the > > > > > > religion-based riots. In 2007, a series of > > > articles in > > > > > the Indian > > > > > > publication Tehelka documented police > > > officers and > > > > > government officials on > > > > > > audio and videotape confessing that they > > > facilitated > > > > > the violence, at times > > > > > > at the direct behest of Modi. > > > > > > > > > > > > "The inaction of Gujarat's > > > government and > > > > > police force in the face of > > > > > > severe violence against religious minorities > > > is an > > > > > inexcusable abuse of > > > > > > international human rights > > > obligations," Gaer > > > > > said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. > > > Get it now, > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > > > media and the > > > > > city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or > > > yourname at rocketmail.com. > > > > Click here http://in..promos.yahoo.com/address > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or > > yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:12:01 +0500 > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] US-India Nuclear Agreement - Still a Bad > Deal >To: Anivar Aravind >Cc: reader-list at sarai.net, fourth-estate-critique at googlegroups.com >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >When a lame duck prime minister and governance by UPA which is struggling to cobble numbers to remain in power at any cost by appeasing regional satraps who have their own agendas of loots, likes of lalu in chara gotala, Devegowda which has the land mafia with him, TR Balu and raja selling spectrum for their gains as exposed in media, PM who is heading a minority government has no moral rights to mortgage the national interest to please his world bank boss, Bush, and gain kickbacks for his madam Sonia. > > It may also be noted that the spokespersons of Congress likes of Moily and Poojary also, Jayanthi have been discarded by thier own communes of votebanks, lost all elections and have been courtesans in the court by virtue of being court jesters to madam Sonia,? > > Regards. > >----- Original Message ----- > From: Anivar Aravind >Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008 10:29 pm >Subject: [Reader-list] US-India Nuclear Agreement - Still a Bad Deal >To: reader-list at sarai.net, fourth-estate-critique at googlegroups.com > > > > > From: SANSAD > > > > As a constituent of US-India Working Group of Abolition 2000, > > SANSAD is > > pleased to disseminate this Media Release. Once again, we urge the > > Canadian government (a member of Board of Governors of the > > InternationalAtomic Energy Agency, as well as of the Nuclear > > Suppliers Group) to not > > support the highly problematic US-India Nuclear Deal. > > > > sansad > > ******************* > > > > Media Release > > July 8, 2008 > > > > US-India Nuclear Agreement - Still a Bad Deal: > > Global Network of NGOs Urge International Community to Oppose > > > > The US-India Deal Working Group of Abolition 2000, a global > > network of > > over 2000 organizations in more than 90 countries working for a global > > treaty to eliminate nuclear weapons, says that pressure to rush a > > decision on the US-India Nuclear Agreement must be resisted. > > > > The organizations are calling upon key governments "to play an active > > role in supporting measures that would ensure this controversial > > proposal does not: further undermine the nuclear safeguards system and > > efforts to prevent the proliferation of technologies that may be > > used to > > produce nuclear bomb material," or "in any way contribute to the > > expansion of India's nuclear arsenal." > > > > This week, in defiance of opposition from Left Parties on whose > > supportit depends, the Indian government is expected to circulate > > a draft > > nuclear Safeguards Agreement to the Board of Governors of the > > International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). In doing so, it set in > > motionthe remaining steps required to operationalize the US-India > > bilateralnuclear agreement (known as the "123 Agreement" after the > > relevantclause in the US Atomic Energy Act). Besides the > > Safeguards Agreement, > > the 45-nation Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) must grant India a special > > exemption from its nuclear trade guidelines and finally the US > > Congressmust accept the terms of the "123 Agreement". > > > > It took two years from the July 2005 Joint Statement by Prime Minister > > Singh and President Bush until the text of the "123 Agreement" was > > finalized and nearly a year has elapsed since then. After delaying for > > so long, the decision at this time by the Indian government to > > send the > > draft Safeguards Agreement to the IAEA Board of Governors has more > > to do > > with the personal pride of Prime Minister Singh than with any > > changes in > > national or international circumstances. It appears that Mr Singh is > > more concerned about keeping faith with President Bush than the > > chancesthat the deal might actually be concluded. Most political > > commentators,including proponents of the deal within the US > > government and Congress, > > believe that the required steps cannot be completed during the > > life of > > the Bush Administration. Furthermore, there is no guarantee that the > > next President will wish to proceed with the deal in its current form. > > > > The US-India Nuclear Agreement was a bad deal when it was originally > > conceived and nothing has changed to redeem it since then. All the > > problems identified in a letter sent to the NSG and the IAEA by > > 130 NGOs > > and experts in January this year still remain. See the following link > > for the text of and list of signatories of the international letter: > > > > _http://cnic.jp/english/topics/plutonium/proliferation/usindiafiles/nsgiaea7jan08.html_ > > _ > > _ > > The deal effectively grants India the privileges of nuclear weapons > > states (NWS), despite the fact that India developed nuclear weapons > > outside the NPT regime. It doesn't even require India to accept > > the same > > responsibilities as other states: full-scope IAEA safeguards for > > non-NWS > > and a commitment from NWS to negotiate in good faith for the > > eliminationof nuclear weapons. > > > > The IAEA and NSG must not to be stampeded into making decisions to fit > > in with an unrealistic political time-table. The 35 countries > > represented on the IAEA Board of Governors must consider the > > possibilitythat special conditions demanded by India could > > undermine the > > credibility of the IAEA safeguards system itself. They must also > > consider whether undertakings made by a government at the fag end > > of its > > tenure and facing strong domestic opposition would actually be > > honored.The NSG must consider the implications for the international > > non-proliferation regime of granting India a special exemption. These > > are weighty matters which should not be judged precipitously. > > > > The IAEA Board of Governors and the Nuclear Suppliers Group of > > countriesshould, as a minimum condition, hold firm to the longstanding > > international effort to end all production of highly enriched uranium > > and plutonium to make nuclear weapons. They should insist that the > > U.S.-India deal be conditioned on an end to further production of > > fissile materials for weapons purposes in South Asia. > > > > Contacts > > JAPAN (English and Japanese) > > _Tokyo:_ Philip White, Coordinator, Abolition 2000 US-India Deal > > WorkingGroup +81-3-3357-3800 > > _Toyako G8 Summit_: Akira Kawasaki, Peace Boat, 090-8310-5370, > > kawasaki at peaceboat.gr.jp > > INDIA: Sukla Sen, National Coordination Committee Member, > > Coalition for > > Nuclear Disarmament and Peace +91-22-6553-4377 > > UNITED STATES: Daryl Kimball, Director, Arms Control Association, > > +1-202-463-8270 > > AUSTRALIA - John Hallam PND Nuclear Flashpoints 61-2-9810-2598 > > 61-2-9319-4296 > > > > c/- Citizens' Nuclear Information Center, Tokyo, Japan > > Tel: 81-3-3357-3800 Fax: 81-3-3357-3801 Email 1: white at cnic.jp > > Web Site: > > http://cnic.jp/english/topics/plutonium/proliferation/usindia.html > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 4 >Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:14:25 +0500 > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean > anything? >To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in >Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Fathima, > > what about the saudi riyals and petro dollars that have flown to defend the accused into the "secular " trust and NGO of the Theesta and high payments to high profile "criminal" lawyers? > > Regards. > >----- Original Message ----- > From: "S.Fatima" >Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008 10:11 pm >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? >To: Rashmi Sawhney >Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Dear Rashmi > > I know my analogy was stupid, but I was mostly reacting to the > > report which I quoted about the US State department revoking his > > visa earlier under the Immigration and Nationality Act, "which > > prohibits foreign officials who are responsible for or directly > > carried out, at any time, particularly severe violations of > > religious freedom from obtaining U.S. visas". Now, why doesn't > > such a law apply in India, why can't we punish him under similar > > accusations here. I am sure the US govt is acting in this manner > > only on the basis of the information provided to it by the Indian > > state. > > This is what I can't fathom: we in India continue to accept Modi, > > vote him to power, allow him to do all that business of shining > > Gujarat, but we have a problem if he goes to the US (as you say > > even the people outside the US will be agitated if he enters US). > > So, why aren't we doing something about him while he shines in > > Gujarat. Why doesn't the US bomb Gujarat to 'smoke him' out, the > > way it does to the others it doesn't like. > > > > I have my doubts if his non-entry is going to affect the business > > and trade of the Gujaratis. On the other hand, the rallying for > > his non-entry by the so-called peace activists only leads to > > further divide between the NRI saffronites and the secularists. > > The saffronites will get further motivated to work against the > > cause of peace. More hate-dollars will pump into India. > > > > SF > > > > > > --- On Wed, 9/7/08, Rashmi Sawhney wrote: > > > > > From: Rashmi Sawhney > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean > > anything?> To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Date: Wednesday, 9 July, 2008, 8:54 PM > > > Dear Fatima, > > > > > > Your analogy, I must agree with you, may probably be wrong, > > > but is certainly > > > naive and unproductive. A second denial of entry into the > > > US may be seen > > > from within Modi camps as being detrimental to his efforts > > > of furthering the > > > lie about a vibrant Gujarat. There are enough numbers of > > > religious > > > fundamentalists in the Western world who support Modi's > > > Hindutva ideology, > > > who may probably not take to the visa refusal kindly. Had > > > the US granted > > > Modi entry so many anti Modi individuals and organisations > > > around the world, > > > including in India, would be agitaged about this too. > > > > > > It is not a question of whether the activists in the US and > > > NRIs want > > > to demonstrate that their sympathy for Gujarat's > > > Muslims is more than > > > activists in India - I think that is a reductive approach > > > that defeats the > > > purpose of a collective anti-Modi struggle. If you want to > > > campaign against > > > the USA's discriminatory and hypocritic policies, there > > > are many other > > > widely available issues that you could pick on - issues > > > that affect common > > > people without any clout or power. > > > > > > Most countries have their own 'germ-infested foods' > > > that are rapidly > > > destroying any social fabrics composed of difference - > > > perhaps one could > > > consider the option of deputing germs-infested foods from > > > different > > > societies to other parts of the world to see if they > > > survive under hostile > > > and foreign conditions. Or, if your approach to solving the > > > problem of > > > Gujarat is to 'export' the germ-infested food, > > > please consider throwing it > > > in the sea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 3:30 PM, S.Fatima > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Please see the report/appeal below, about another > > > effort to stop the > > > > Gujarat CM Narendra Modi from entering the US. While > > > withholding all my > > > > angst against what he allowed to happen in Gujarat in > > > 2002 and the fact that > > > > he shamelessly continues to be blind to the growing > > > hatred against Muslims, > > > > I wonder if the efforts by our activist friends in the > > > US to stop him from > > > > entering that soil mean anything other than a > > > hypocracy. After all, he > > > > continues to live and do what he pleases in > > > India/Gujarat, but we won't > > > > allow him in the US... Isn't that ridiculous? > > > > > > > > Are they trying to teach him a lesson, or punish him > > > through this gesture? > > > > Is his non-entry into the US going to badly affect the > > > Gujaratis' business > > > > and trade (which he is supposed to solemnize in New > > > Jersey)? Not the least, > > > > I think. So what is it then? Is it a symbolic > > > rejection of his leadership? > > > > Or do the NRI and American activist want to show that > > > they care about > > > > Gujarat's Muslims more than the activists in > > > India? > > > > > > > > Although this analogy maybe completely wrong, but I > > > can't help think this: > > > > "We won't allow a germ-infested food that is > > > killing thousands in India to > > > > enter the US".... > > > > Other thoughts are welcome. > > > > > > > > ========== > > > > > > > > USCIRF Urges Denial of U.S. Visa to Gujarat Chief > > > Minister Narendra Modi > > > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > > July 8, 2008 > > > > > > > > Contact: Judith Ingram > > > > Communications Director > > > > (202) 523-3240, ext. 127 > > > > > > > > WASHINGTON - The United States Commission on > > > International Religious > > > > Freedom urges the U.S. State Department to reaffirm > > > its past decision to > > > > deny a tourist visa to Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra > > > Modi, who has been > > > > invited to attend a conference in New Jersey this > > > August celebrating > > > > Gujarati culture. Modi was previously denied entrance > > > to the United States > > > > due to his role in riots that overtook the Indian > > > state of Gujarat from > > > > February to May 2002 in which reportedly as many as > > > 2,000 Muslims were > > > > killed, thousands raped, and over 200,000 displaced. > > > Numerous reports, > > > > including reports of official bodies of the Government > > > of India, have > > > > documented the role of Modi's state government in > > > the planning and execution > > > > of the violence, and the failure to hold perpetrators > > > accountable. > > > > > > > > Following Modi's invitation to attend conferences > > > in the U.S. in 2005, the > > > > Commission successfully urged the State Department to > > > revoke Modi's U.S. > > > > tourist visa. Despite pressure from the Indian > > > government, the State > > > > Department revoked his visa under the Immigration and > > > Nationality Act (INA), > > > > which prohibits foreign government officials who are > > > "responsible for or > > > > directly carried out, at any time, particularly severe > > > violations of > > > > religious freedom" from obtaining U.S. visas. > > > This section was added to the > > > > INA by the International Religious Freedom Act of > > > 1998. The Commission once > > > > again urges the State Department to announce > > > Modi's ineligibility for a visa > > > > under the terms of the INA. > > > > > > > > "We have not seen changes that would warrant a > > > policy reversal," said > > > > Commission Chair Felice D. Gaer. "As official > > > bodies of the government of > > > > India have found, Narendra Modi is culpable for the > > > egregious and systematic > > > > human rights abuses wrought against thousands of > > > India's Muslims. Mr. Modi > > > > must demonstrate to the State Department and to the > > > American people why > > > > he-as a person found to have aided and abetted gross > > > violations of human > > > > rights, including religious freedom-should now be > > > eligible for a tourist > > > > visa. > > > > > > > > Following the riots in 2002, India's National > > > Human Rights Commission > > > > issued a report that pointed to the role of Modi's > > > government in the > > > > systematic murder of Muslims and the calculated > > > destruction of Muslim homes > > > > and businesses. In 2003, the Indian central government > > > found corruption and > > > > anti-Muslim bias to be so pervasive in the Gujarat > > > judiciary that riot cases > > > > were shifted for trial to the neighboring state of > > > Maharashtra. Despite > > > > this action, the lack of justice for victims remains a > > > serious concern, as > > > > there have been very few court convictions in the six > > > years since the > > > > religion-based riots. In 2007, a series of articles in > > > the Indian > > > > publication Tehelka documented police officers and > > > government officials on > > > > audio and videotape confessing that they facilitated > > > the violence, at times > > > > at the direct behest of Modi. > > > > > > > > "The inaction of Gujarat's government and > > > police force in the face of > > > > severe violence against religious minorities is an > > > inexcusable abuse of > > > > international human rights obligations," Gaer > > > said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, > > > on > > > > > > > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > > city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or > > yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here > > http://in..promos.yahoo.com/address > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >reader-list mailing list >reader-list at sarai.net >https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >End of reader-list Digest, Vol 60, Issue 81 >******************************************* Cell - 9818063517 From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Fri Jul 11 17:59:43 2008 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 17:59:43 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <775198.99414.qm@web8401.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Radhika I don't wish to start yet another unending debate on this, but you certainly have misunderstood me. We are discussing Modi's non-entry into the US and its affects. When you say that I am "encouraging citizens to take law into their hands be barbaric to dispense what you seem and deem it as right" you haven't understood the context of this discussion (although didn't Modi do just that in Gujarat in 2002 - allowing his friends to take law into their hands?) People vote him to power because for years and years he has been polarizing the Gujarati Hindus into one direction. Sadly majority of Indian voters are not mature enough to make intelligent decisions - they follow the wave. That's why it is easy to win Indian elections by whipping up religious sentiments. Even Indira Gandhhi used to do that. By the way, I would be curious to know if you have an evidence to proof that Indian secularists (such as Teesta) and lawyers fighting for riot-affected Muslims have got funding from Saudi Arabia. Can you provide authentic any link to that. SF --- On Fri, 11/7/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into US mean anything? > To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in > Cc: "Rashmi Sawhney" , reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Friday, 11 July, 2008, 4:41 PM > Sadia, > what one should do in civilised democratic society as > citizen of the society. ? > > As a citizen I can vote for him or vote for another > candidate. What do you mean by doing some thing, you are > encouraging citizens to take law into their hands be > barbaric to dispense what you seem and deem it as right. ? > Then what is the difference between you and Dawood Ibrahim > or Al queada chief. ? > > Freedom means as you are free you have social > responsibilty as well beyond religion and faith as human, > it is better you remember that overwhelming citizens have > voted for the party and its leader to rule the state and > govern for the assigned term of five years. In democratic > way, you can vote him out, do not nurse any other ideas as > you are cause for action and then reaction which can be > very traumatic for all citizens as violence only begets > more of it, in the process of blasts, the blasts do not > recognise the victims religion and faith to strike > miseries. > > It is my sincere request to stop this nonsense of action > and reactions and if possible generate awareness if any bad > acts done personally by Modi with evidence, educate the > voter about good governance in democratic system, thus > expect to be catalyst for change.? > > Regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "S.Fatima" > Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:55 am > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's non-entry into > US mean anything? > To: Rashmi Sawhney > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Dear Rashmi > > Its fine if you wish to rest the case here. But I > still think you > > have been only reacting to my most casual and minor > points (such > > as 'smoking out' or the word Gujarati etc.) My > main/original point > > still remains unanswered: Isn't it hypocritical > that we do nothing > > about Modi in India, and have a problem if he travels > to the US? > > And what difference will it make if he can't go to > the US? > > Does anyone else have an answer to that? > > > > F > > > > > > --- On Wed, 9/7/08, Rashmi Sawhney > wrote: > > > > > From: Rashmi Sawhney > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does Modi's > non-entry into US mean > > anything?> To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Date: Wednesday, 9 July, 2008, 10:36 PM > > > Dera Fatima, > > > > > > Two brief points: > > > > > > 1. There is a measure of desperation in > suggesting that the > > > US should take > > > responsibility for 'smoking out' Modi as > > > they've been doing with individuals > > > and nations they see as being problematic around > the world. > > > Although, > > > privately, if they manage to isolate him and do > this, I > > > will join in your > > > celebrations. > > > 2. I have a fundamental issue with your point > about whether > > > Modi's non/entry > > > is going to affect the business and trade of the > people of > > > Gujarat/ of > > > Gujarati origin. > > > The view: Gujarati = Hindu = > pro-Modi/pro-Hindutva is > > > problematic and > > > furthers the very image and idea of Gujarat that > the BJP > > > have been > > > projecting under Modi's leadership. There are > many > > > Gujaratis who are > > > Muslims, Jains, Parsis and Christians, so the > alignment of > > > a linguistic > > > community with a religious group is problematic. > > > > > > I will rest my case here, > > > > > > Rashmi > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 5:40 PM, S.Fatima > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Rashmi > > > > I know my analogy was stupid, but I was > mostly > > > reacting to the report which > > > > I quoted about the US State department > revoking his > > > visa earlier under the > > > > Immigration and Nationality Act, "which > prohibits > > > foreign officials who are > > > > responsible for or directly carried out, at > any time, > > > particularly severe > > > > violations of religious freedom from > obtaining U.S. > > > visas". Now, why doesn't > > > > such a law apply in India, why can't we > punish him > > > under similar accusations > > > > here. I am sure the US govt is acting in > this manner > > > only on the basis of > > > > the information provided to it by the Indian > state. > > > > > > > > This is what I can't fathom: we in India > continue > > > to accept Modi, vote him > > > > to power, allow him to do all that business > of shining > > > Gujarat, but we have > > > > a problem if he goes to the US (as you say > even the > > > people outside the US > > > > will be agitated if he enters US). So, why > aren't > > > we doing something about > > > > him while he shines in Gujarat. Why > doesn't the US > > > bomb Gujarat to 'smoke > > > > him' out, the way it does to the others > it > > > doesn't like. > > > > > > > > I have my doubts if his non-entry is going > to affect > > > the business and trade > > > > of the Gujaratis. On the other hand, the > rallying for > > > his non-entry by the > > > > so-called peace activists only leads to > further divide > > > between the NRI > > > > saffronites and the secularists. The > saffronites will > > > get further motivated > > > > to work against the cause of peace. More > hate-dollars > > > will pump into India. > > > > > > > > SF > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Wed, 9/7/08, Rashmi Sawhney > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Rashmi Sawhney > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] does > Modi's > > > non-entry into US mean anything? > > > > > To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in > > > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > Date: Wednesday, 9 July, 2008, 8:54 PM > > > > > Dear Fatima, > > > > > > > > > > Your analogy, I must agree with you, > may probably > > > be wrong, > > > > > but is certainly > > > > > naive and unproductive. A second denial > of entry > > > into the > > > > > US may be seen > > > > > from within Modi camps as being > detrimental to > > > his efforts > > > > > of furthering the > > > > > lie about a vibrant Gujarat. There are > enough > > > numbers of > > > > > religious > > > > > fundamentalists in the Western world > who support > > > Modi's > > > > > Hindutva ideology, > > > > > who may probably not take to the visa > refusal > > > kindly. Had > > > > > the US granted > > > > > Modi entry so many anti Modi > individuals and > > > organisations > > > > > around the world, > > > > > including in India, would be agitaged > about this > > > too. > > > > > > > > > > It is not a question of whether the > activists in > > > the US and > > > > > NRIs want > > > > > to demonstrate that their sympathy for > > > Gujarat's > > > > > Muslims is more than > > > > > activists in India - I think that is a > reductive > > > approach > > > > > that defeats the > > > > > purpose of a collective anti-Modi > struggle. If > > > you want to > > > > > campaign against > > > > > the USA's discriminatory and > hypocritic > > > policies, there > > > > > are many other > > > > > widely available issues that you could > pick on - > > > issues > > > > > that affect common > > > > > people without any clout or power. > > > > > > > > > > Most countries have their own > 'germ-infested > > > foods' > > > > > that are rapidly > > > > > destroying any social fabrics composed > of > > > difference - > > > > > perhaps one could > > > > > consider the option of deputing > germs-infested > > > foods from > > > > > different > > > > > societies to other parts of the world > to see if > > > they > > > > > survive under hostile > > > > > and foreign conditions. Or, if your > approach to > > > solving the > > > > > problem of > > > > > Gujarat is to 'export' the > germ-infested > > > food, > > > > > please consider throwing it > > > > > in the sea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 3:30 PM, > S.Fatima > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Please see the report/appeal > below, about > > > another > > > > > effort to stop the > > > > > > Gujarat CM Narendra Modi from > entering the > > > US. While > > > > > withholding all my > > > > > > angst against what he allowed to > happen in > > > Gujarat in > > > > > 2002 and the fact that > > > > > > he shamelessly continues to be > blind to the > > > growing > > > > > hatred against Muslims, > > > > > > I wonder if the efforts by our > activist > > > friends in the > > > > > US to stop him from > > > > > > entering that soil mean anything > other than > > > a > > > > > hypocracy. After all, he > > > > > > continues to live and do what he > pleases in > > > > > India/Gujarat, but we won't > > > > > > allow him in the US... Isn't > that > > > ridiculous? > > > > > > > > > > > > Are they trying to teach him a > lesson, or > > > punish him > > > > > through this gesture? > > > > > > Is his non-entry into the US going > to badly > > > affect the > > > > > Gujaratis' business > > > > > > and trade (which he is supposed to > solemnize > > > in New > > > > > Jersey)? Not the least, > > > > > > I think. So what is it then? Is it > a > > > symbolic > > > > > rejection of his leadership? > > > > > > Or do the NRI and American > activist want to > > > show that > > > > > they care about > > > > > > Gujarat's Muslims more than > the > > > activists in > > > > > India? > > > > > > > > > > > > Although this analogy maybe > completely > > > wrong, but I > > > > > can't help think this: > > > > > > "We won't allow a > germ-infested > > > food that is > > > > > killing thousands in India to > > > > > > enter the US".... > > > > > > Other thoughts are welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > > > USCIRF Urges Denial of U.S. Visa > to Gujarat > > > Chief > > > > > Minister Narendra Modi > > > > > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > > > > July 8, 2008 > > > > > > > > > > > > Contact: Judith Ingram > > > > > > Communications Director > > > > > > (202) 523-3240, ext. 127 > > > > > > > > > > > > WASHINGTON - The United States > Commission on > > > > > International Religious > > > > > > Freedom urges the U.S. State > Department to > > > reaffirm > > > > > its past decision to > > > > > > deny a tourist visa to Gujarat > Chief > > > Minister Narendra > > > > > Modi, who has been > > > > > > invited to attend a conference in > New Jersey > > > this > > > > > August celebrating > > > > > > Gujarati culture. Modi was > previously > > > denied entrance > > > > > to the United States > > > > > > due to his role in riots that > overtook the > > > Indian > > > > > state of Gujarat from > > > > > > February to May 2002 in which > reportedly as > > > many as > > > > > 2,000 Muslims were > > > > > > killed, thousands raped, and over > 200,000 > > > displaced. > > > > > Numerous reports, > > > > > > including reports of official > bodies of the > > > Government > > > > > of India, have > > > > > > documented the role of Modi's > state > > > government in > > > > > the planning and execution > > > > > > of the violence, and the failure > to hold > > > perpetrators > > > > > accountable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Following Modi's invitation to > attend > > > conferences > > > > > in the U.S. in 2005, the > > > > > > Commission successfully urged the > State > > > Department to > > > > > revoke Modi's U.S. > > > > > > tourist visa. Despite pressure > from the > > > Indian > > > > > government, the State > > > > > > Department revoked his visa under > the > > > Immigration and > > > > > Nationality Act (INA), > > > > > > which prohibits foreign government > officials > > > who are > > > > > "responsible for or > > > > > > directly carried out, at any time, > > > particularly severe > > > > > violations of > > > > > > religious freedom" from > obtaining U.S. > > > visas. > > > > > This section was added to the > > > > > > INA by the International Religious > Freedom > > > Act of > > > > > 1998. The Commission once > > > > > > again urges the State Department > to announce > > > > > Modi's ineligibility for a visa > > > > > > under the terms of the INA. > > > > > > > > > > > > "We have not seen changes > that would > > > warrant a > > > > > policy reversal," said > > > > > > Commission Chair Felice D. Gaer. > "As > > > official > > > > > bodies of the government of > > > > > > India have found, Narendra Modi is > culpable > > > for the > > > > > egregious and systematic > > > > > > human rights abuses wrought > against > > > thousands of > > > > > India's Muslims. Mr. Modi > > > > > > must demonstrate to the State > Department and > > > to the > > > > > American people why > > > > > > he-as a person found to have aided > and > > > abetted gross > > > > > violations of human > > > > > > rights, including religious > freedom-should > > > now be > > > > > eligible for a tourist > > > > > > visa. > > > > > > > > > > > > Following the riots in 2002, > India's > > > National > > > > > Human Rights Commission > > > > > > issued a report that pointed to > the role of > > > Modi's > > > > > government in the > > > > > > systematic murder of Muslims and > the > > > calculated > > > > > destruction of Muslim homes > > > > > > and businesses. In 2003, the > Indian central > > > government > > > > > found corruption and > > > > > > anti-Muslim bias to be so > pervasive in the > > > Gujarat > > > > > judiciary that riot cases >> > > > > were shifted for trial to the > neighboring > > > state of > > > > > Maharashtra. Despite > > > > > > this action, the lack of justice > for victims > > > remains a > > > > > serious concern, as > > > > > > there have been very few court > convictions > > > in the six > > > > > years since the > > > > > > religion-based riots. In 2007, a > series of > > > articles in > > > > > the Indian > > > > > > publication Tehelka documented > police > > > officers and > > > > > government officials on > > > > > > audio and videotape confessing > that they > > > facilitated > > > > > the violence, at times > > > > > > at the direct behest of Modi. > > > > > > > > > > > > "The inaction of > Gujarat's > > > government and > > > > > police force in the face of > > > > > > severe violence against religious > minorities > > > is an > > > > > inexcusable abuse of > > > > > > international human rights > > > obligations," Gaer > > > > > said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited > storage. > > > Get it now, > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion > list on > > > media and the > > > > > city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com > or > > > yourname at rocketmail.com. > > > > Click here > http://in..promos.yahoo.com/address > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or > > yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From rajeshr at csds.in Fri Jul 11 18:22:30 2008 From: rajeshr at csds.in (Rajesh Ramakrishnan) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 18:22:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] POSTPONED: `Stranded Between Government and Opposition: The Politics of the CPI(M) Since 1989' Message-ID: Due to unforeseen circumstances, the talk `Stranded Between Government and Opposition: The Politics of the CPI(M) Since 1989' by Dr. Sanjay Ruparelia, scheduled for 15th July at CSDS Delhi, is postponed. We will let you know as soon as the event is re-scheduled. Rajesh Ramakrishnan Academic Secretary CSDS From mail at shivamvij.com Fri Jul 11 18:37:23 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 18:37:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <7F36D1DA-4DCE-42EF-A812-2887B32CFE94@sarai.net> References: <7F36D1DA-4DCE-42EF-A812-2887B32CFE94@sarai.net> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807110607j3d5607b3hdc110c47ebfd4b28@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha, When in a post on the Hyde Act and the 123 agreement a few days ago you had predicted that the Left and the BJP would come closer, I had felt, to be honest, that that is coming from someone's imagination who hates the Indian Left and the Right in equal measure. Apart from the Advani interview on the Hindu, the report below, by Navika Kumar on Times Now yesterday, leaves no doubt about an entente cordiale. So much for the endless, banal explanations about how we're-supporting-the-Congress-to-keep-BJP-out. best shivam Left-BJP in talks to corner govt 7/10/2008 4:46:24 PM http://timesnow.tv/Newsdtls.aspx?NewsID=11306 After the Left parties withdrew support on Tuesday (July 8) from the Centre following the UPA government's stand on the Indo-US Nuclear deal issue after PM Manmohan Singh went ahead to the IAEA with the safeguards agreement, it is learnt that the Left has now touched base with the BJP through interlocutors to discuss floor coordination strategy in a bid to oppose the Indo-US nuke deal. Sources have told TIMES NOW that the Left has established contact with the BJP, through interlocutors, who are neither part of the National Democratic Alliance (NDA) or the Left. The focus of the discussion is likely to be on the floor coordination strategy that the Left and the NDA could adopt, once the government moves for a trust vote. Alternately, in case the government does not seek the confidence vote, the focus will be on the party that would move the 'no confidence motion', the BJP, Left or a third non-alligned party. Earlier, External Affairs Minister in a press conference announced that the government will go ahead with the nuclear deal only after Parliament approval. However, the draft for the India-specific safeguards agreement was sent to the IAEA last night (Wednesday, July 9). Yesterday (July 9), the leaders of the four Left parties submitted a list of 60 MPs and a joint letter signed by leaders of -- CPM, CPI, RSP and Forward Block to the President Pratibha Patil -- to seek a vote confidence in the Lok Sabha immediately. On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 4:37 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear All, > > I find it sad that all those who live in India are being sent > headlong into a period of turbulence following the unilateral > decision by the so-called Left parties in response to the Indo-US > Nuclear Deal. In all likelihood, if the government of the day fails > to pass the test of numbers on the floor of parliament, India will > head straight for early elections. The likely beneficiary of this > process will be the BJP, and if, going by the extensive coverage that > the Hindu, usually the mainstream media mouthpiece of the so called > Communist Party of India (Marxist) has given to L.K. Advani (the > billowing PM in waiting of the BJP), then, it needs to be read as a > sign of things to come. A covert entente cordiale between the so > called Left and the Right in Indian politics. Or, in other words, > Prakash Karat handing L.K. Advani the prime-ministership on a > platter. A decade or so ago, while Harkrishen Singh Surjeet was > 'managing' the Congress on behalf of the CPI(M), a similar covert > entente cordiale between the so called Left and the Congress (which > matured into a full fledged partnership) was as unthinkable, as what > augurs, when the 'Patriots' of the Left and the Right begin dancing > their secret tango. > > In this entire episode, everyone has come out in glorious colours, > the Congress with its pathetic kow-towing to US interests under the > stewardship of George Bush, the Left with its myopic Nuclear > patriotism and its abdication of any responsibility towards > developing a programme that is critical of the Indian state's Nuclear > military ambitions, the BJP with its sabre rattling, the Socialists > with their usual cynical opportunism. > > And so ends the brief humid Weimar of the Indian Republic. Let us > celebrate its demise by recalling how pallid and banal it has already > become. > > I guess we should all now get accustomed to the idea of Narendra > Modi as a possible Union Minister of the Interior in the forthcoming > years. > > best > > Shuddha > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 22:31:40 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 22:31:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FACT Exhibition at IHC In-Reply-To: <4057fac40807110702p2f2b44fbxb9ce8a9ff1926ac9@mail.gmail.com> References: <4057fac40807110702p2f2b44fbxb9ce8a9ff1926ac9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690807111001u7fe28e50g12939b4f4235f1ca@mail.gmail.com> *FACT INDIA: Exhibition on Naxalism opens in India Habitat Centre* *The Naxalism: A threat to Unified nation of India* The Exhibition is a reflection of the Maoist insurgency in India, a blend of photographs statistics and ofcourse an analysis and a presentation of FACTS. The exhibition will be open for visitors at the INDIA HAbitat centre from *8-14th july 2008*. The exhibition has already travelled to Oslo and was screened on the sidelines of "The Conference on Peace and Reconciliation in South Asia - Challenges and Opportunities." *The Exhibition* travels through the lives of the victims in the Naxal infested states and present their lives as well as the lives of those vallant fighters both civilian and from the government. Its the Fight against terrorism the idea of killing because one doesnt believe or just disagree with the others, Intolerence and disharmony. Timings: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 - Monday, July 14, 2008 Venue: India Habitat Center, Lodhi Road, New Delhi Contact number:- Mr Veer 099871949094 -- Thanks & regards Rinku thusoo Delhi http://kashmir-in-exile.blogspot.com http://jokingbudha.blogspot.com __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages| Files| Photos| Links| Database| Polls| Members| Calendar MARKETPLACE ------------------------------ Special offer for Yahoo! Groups from Blockbuster! Get a free 1-month trial with no late fees or due dates. [image: Yahoo! Groups] Change settings via the Web(Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest| Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Visit Your Group Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more. Featured Y! Groups and category pages. There is something for everyone. Yahoo! Groups Real Food Group Share recipes and favorite meals. . __,_._,___ From logos.theword at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 14:00:37 2008 From: logos.theword at gmail.com (Logos Theatre) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:00:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] A Performance of Yeats with Hindustani Music In-Reply-To: <33bc2ee60807110129t39ea4b9w9a3fca461d331a2b@mail.gmail.com> References: <33bc2ee60807110106h22c860c1re116e96f4683bdfc@mail.gmail.com> <33bc2ee60807110129t39ea4b9w9a3fca461d331a2b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33bc2ee60807110130n2f99c7e6ke441891f25ada92@mail.gmail.com> As part of 'not reading from a chair', a performance cycle presented by the SpeechMagic initiative, an effort of Logos Theatre, there will be a performance of the poetry of W. B. Yeats, set to Hindustani classical music. The effort will be to explore the mystical imagery of Yeats' poetry through the nuances of Hindustani raagas. The artists are: theStillDancer - poetry performance and SIKAN DEROUGE - vocal music and guitar. The performance will take place at Maya Gallery of Contemporary art, #59, Nandidurga Road (near the airtel office), on the 15th of July at 8 PM. Entry is at 200/- (100/- for students with valid IDs). -- Logos Theatre In the beginning was the word No. 126, 3rd Main Road, Jayamahal Extension, Bangalore 560046 -------------------------------------------------------- If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all. Since no man has aught of what he leaves, what is't to leave betimes? Let be. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From pankhuree at hotmail.com Sat Jul 12 01:51:47 2008 From: pankhuree at hotmail.com (pankhuree dube) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 20:21:47 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FACT Exhibition at IHC In-Reply-To: <6353c690807111001u7fe28e50g12939b4f4235f1ca@mail.gmail.com> References: <4057fac40807110702p2f2b44fbxb9ce8a9ff1926ac9@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807111001u7fe28e50g12939b4f4235f1ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Mr. Kaul, Thank you for forwarding a description of this exhibit. It sounds fascinating. Do you know if there are any plans to make it available online so that individuals who are not able to view it in India can have a chance to read further about it? I would very much like to be able to see it firsthand, but even a brief description of the findings and perhaps a list of resources for further reading would be of great interest to me.Many thanks, Pankhuree > Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 22:31:40 +0530> From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FACT Exhibition at IHC> > *FACT INDIA: Exhibition on Naxalism opens in India Habitat Centre*> > *The Naxalism: A threat to Unified nation of India* The Exhibition is a> reflection of the Maoist insurgency in India, a blend of photographs> statistics and ofcourse an analysis and a presentation of FACTS. The> exhibition will be open for visitors at the INDIA HAbitat centre from *8-14th> july 2008*. The exhibition has already travelled to Oslo and was screened on> the sidelines of "The Conference on Peace and Reconciliation in South Asia -> Challenges and Opportunities."> > *The Exhibition* travels through the lives of the victims in the Naxal> infested states and present their lives as well as the lives of those> vallant fighters both civilian and from the government. Its the Fight> against terrorism the idea of killing because one doesnt believe or just> disagree with the others, Intolerence and disharmony.> > > > Timings: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 - Monday, July 14, 2008> > Venue: India Habitat Center, Lodhi> Road, New Delhi> > > > Contact number:- Mr Veer 099871949094> > > -- > Thanks & regards> Rinku thusoo> Delhi> > http://kashmir-in-exile.blogspot.com> http://jokingbudha.blogspot.com> __._,_.___ Messages in this topic> > (1) Reply (via web post)> |> Start a new topic> > Messages|> Files|> Photos|> Links|> Database|> Polls|> Members|> Calendar> MARKETPLACE> ------------------------------> Special offer for Yahoo! Groups> from> Blockbuster! Get a free 1-month trial with no late fees or due> dates.> [image: Yahoo! Groups]> Change settings via the> Web(Yahoo!> ID required)> Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily> Digest|> Switch> format to Traditional> Visit Your Group> |> Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe> > Visit Your Group> > Yahoo! Finance> > It's Now Personal> > Guides, news,> > advice & more.> Featured Y! Groups> > and category pages.> > There is something> > for everyone.> Yahoo! Groups> > Real Food Group> > Share recipes> > and favorite meals.> .> > __,_._,___> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Making the world a better place one message at a time. http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Jul 12 11:09:50 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 11:09:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FACT Exhibition at IHC In-Reply-To: References: <4057fac40807110702p2f2b44fbxb9ce8a9ff1926ac9@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807111001u7fe28e50g12939b4f4235f1ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690807112239j380c34bfq8bcd7b3689aed134@mail.gmail.com> Hi Pankhuree, You can check the online exhibition here: Here it is. http://www.scribd.com/doc/2469417/Naxal-Low-Res- http://www.scribd.com/doc/3907033/5-new-panels For More details Mr. Veeru might be contacted here - Mob: +91 93912 45303 +91 98719 49094 Thanks indeed, Aditya Raj Kaul Campaign Blog - www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com On 7/12/08, pankhuree dube wrote: > > > Hi Mr. Kaul, > Thank you for forwarding a description of this exhibit. It sounds > fascinating. Do you know if there are any plans to make it available online > so that individuals who are not able to view it in India can have a chance > to read further about it? > I would very much like to be able to see it firsthand, but even a brief > description of the findings and perhaps a list of resources for further > reading would be of great interest to me.Many thanks, > Pankhuree > > Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 22:31:40 +0530> From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FACT Exhibition at > IHC> > *FACT INDIA: Exhibition on Naxalism opens in India Habitat Centre*> > > *The Naxalism: A threat to Unified nation of India* The Exhibition is a> > reflection of the Maoist insurgency in India, a blend of photographs> > statistics and ofcourse an analysis and a presentation of FACTS. The> > exhibition will be open for visitors at the INDIA HAbitat centre from > *8-14th> july 2008*. The exhibition has already travelled to Oslo and was > screened on> the sidelines of "The Conference on Peace and Reconciliation in > South Asia -> Challenges and Opportunities."> > *The Exhibition* travels > through the lives of the victims in the Naxal> infested states and present > their lives as well as the lives of those> vallant fighters both civilian > and from the government. Its the Fight> against terrorism the idea of > killing because one doesnt believe or just> disagree with the others, > Intolerence and disharmony.> > > > Timings: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 - Monday, > July 14, 2008> > Venue: India Habitat Center, < > http://upcoming.yahoo.com/venue/131044/>Lodhi> Road, New Delhi> > > > > Contact number:- Mr Veer 099871949094> > > -- > Thanks & regards> Rinku > thusoo> Delhi> > http://kashmir-in-exile.blogspot.com> > http://jokingbudha.blogspot.com> __._,_.___ Messages in this topic> < > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/message/4045;_ylc=X3oDMTM1OWhsbmZtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARtc2dJZAM0MDQ1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTIxNTc4NDk2OAR0cGNJZAM0MDQ1>> > (1) Reply (via web post)> < > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMXNpMHRhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARtc2dJZAM0MDQ1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTIxNTc4NDk2OA--?act=reply&messageNum=4045>|> > Start a new topic> < > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZGlxM3ZsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Njg->> > Messages< > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNTJ0cm5tBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNtc2dzBHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Njg->|> > Files< > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/files;_ylc=X3oDMTJnNjA5ZjdhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNmaWxlcwRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4>|> > Photos< > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/photos;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNnJjdjluBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNwaG90BHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Njg->|> > Links< > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJnN3NvN3NpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNsaW5rcwRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4>|> > Database< > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/database;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMWU1OXNuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNkYgRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4>|> > Polls< > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJnYmw3dnYzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNwb2xscwRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4>|> > Members< > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbzYyNXQ1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Njg->|> > Calendar< > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/calendar;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZjZjaWNwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNjYWwEc3RpbWUDMTIxNTc4NDk2OA-->> > MARKETPLACE> ------------------------------> Special offer for Yahoo! > Groups> < > http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13r4sn4qb/M=624381.12730922.13032918.10835568/D=groups/S=1708343758:MKP1/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1215792168/L=/B=8d5RAELaX9w-/J=1215784968592283/A=5396680/R=0/SIG=14e7adlkt/*http://media.adrevolver.com/adrevolver/href?banner=197791&place=26143&url_=http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/display.com?cid=bbi00027>from> > Blockbuster! 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Groups> > Real Food Group< > http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13o1vgd34/M=493064.12016243.13036160.8674578/D=groups/S=1708343758:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1215792168/L=/B=9N5RAELaX9w-/J=1215784968592283/A=5379228/R=0/SIG=11gatb1qb/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/hellmanns/>> > > Share recipes> > and favorite meals.> .> > __,_._,___> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header.> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________________________________ > Making the world a better place one message at a time. > http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Jul 12 14:33:11 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:33:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FACT Exhibition at IHC In-Reply-To: <6353c690807112239j380c34bfq8bcd7b3689aed134@mail.gmail.com> References: <4057fac40807110702p2f2b44fbxb9ce8a9ff1926ac9@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807111001u7fe28e50g12939b4f4235f1ca@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807112239j380c34bfq8bcd7b3689aed134@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <035EDB06-2832-4B9B-A1E4-32CDF430C10E@sarai.net> Dear Aditya, dear Pankhuree, dear all, Thank you, Aditya, for forwarding information about the FACT (Foundation Against Continuing Terrorism) sponsored exhibition titled: 'Naxalism: A Threat to the Unified Nation of India' While I am no sympathizer of Maoism, or those who are either called 'Maoists' or 'Naxalites' in India, I do have a few bones to pick with the contents of the exhibition at the India Habitat Centre that you have recommended to us. While looking at what pretends to be information of this nature it is always useful to do a little thinking about numbers. The statistics of casualties in the FACT exhibition are taken from the monthly statistics and reports published in the South Asia Intelligence Review by the South Asia Terrorism Portal, a think tank headed by the notorious former Punjab police chief who masterminded disappearances and the utilization of 'renegade' militants as an instrument of policy in Punjab and the North East, architect of the Indian hockey team's disasters and well known pincher of women's bottoms, Mr. KPS GIll. I am a regular recipient of the SAIR and I happen to follow the figures that are mentioned in its reports quite diligently. I have no quarrel with the reports, as such, as I have no way of assessing their accuracy, or inaccuracy. However, I do have a quarrel with the way in which this information is presented in the FACT exhibition. In each instance, there is a heading called 'civilian casualties' . Let us take the Table that says 'Naxal Violence in Chattisgarh' and analyse the information given for the year 2007 " Security Forces Casualties 181 Civilian Casualties 166 Naxalites Killed 66 " What I find interesting is the figure for 'Civilian Casualties'. Given in this way, it appears as if the 'Civilians' killed are due to 'Naxal' violence. The sources of these figures, the SAIR bulletins, simply title their tables as "Weekly Fatalities: Major Conflicts in South Asia" , which in my opinion, is a far more precise way of talking about the casualty figures, because it does not actually attribute specific authorship to the violence. This is significant, because the 'civilans' while they may be targetted on occasion by the Maoists, are also, generally, in a far larger measure, targetted by the security forces, and the 'Anti-Maoist' militia called the Salwa Judum. So, when we see 'civilian casualties' we are looking at a number of people who may have been killed, by 'Naxals', by security forces, by militia like the 'Salwa Judum'. Since, 'Naxals' depend on their survival on the sympathies (and to a certain extent, fear) of the tribal poor, it is extremely unrealistic to deduce that they would in fact be the primary authors of the violence that is described as 'civilian casualties'. Numerous investigations report that the actual primary authors of this violence are the security forces, and the Salwa Judum, both of which act with impunity in Chattisgarh. In this instance, the FACT exhibition is indulging in a serious case of disinformation. It could be argued that it is doing so at the behest of the primary authors of this violence, that is, the security forces and those who have floated outfits such as the 'Salwa Judum'. In the FACT exhibition text, the Salwa Judum is introduced as 'Hope Floats'. It is by now well documented that the Salwa Judum is in fact one of the deadliest and most lethal armed outfits operating in India, which coerces tribals who are forced into detention camps to join it as footsoldiers, which uses child soldiers and uses rape, torture and arson. It has become an instrument of state terror, and is supported by the corporate interests which have a stake in the mining operations in the area to clear tribals off the land that the mining companies lust after. Even the South Asia Terrorism Portal (which the FACT exhibition relies on extensively, otherwise) has this to say about the Salwa Judum "However, local reports from the areas witnessing the campaign have been disturbing, with analysts questioning the policy of state support to a vigilante movement that exposes large numbers of civilians to unacceptable risk. According to a former Director General of Police, Dr. K S Subramanian, “While official sources maintain that the campaign, led by a local legislator, is hugely successful with the tribal people joining it in large numbers, local enquiries revealed a different picture. In the name of Salwa Judum, the tribal people are being forced to join a far from spontaneous mobilisation… Hundreds have been killed on both sides. A large area of land remains uncultivated; tribal people who are meant to work on the land have deserted the villages and are living under open skies and are starving. A vast amount of corruption has crept in as a result of this misconceived campaign with the ruling party spending huge amounts on it.” http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/sair/archives/4_33.htm For a more detailed investigation of the Salwa Judum's 'spontaneous' activities, please see - the PUCL (Peoples Union for Civil Liberties) report on the Salwa Judum at http://www.pucl.org/Topics/Human-rights/2006/slawajudum.htm There are other howlers in the exhibition, such as the fact that. the Ranvir Sena is mentioned as a Naxalite organization. Now, the Ranvir Sena, as is very well known, is a militia of upper caste landowners in Bihar and parts of Jharkhand that has actually been at war (like the Salwa Judum) with the Naxals for several decades now. Calling the Ranvir Sena a 'Naxalite' organization is a bit like calling Panun Kashmir, or Roots in Kashmir a front organization of the JKLF or the Hizbul Mujahideen in Kashmir. Finally, a word about FACT, the outfit that has organized this exhibition. The moving force behind FACT is the rather flamboyant French expatriate journalist based in Delhi, Francois Gautier, whose sympathies for hard line Hindu Fundamentalism has never been a secret. He founded FACT with money he got from the'Nachiketa' Journalism prize awarded to him by the then Prime Minister of India Mr Atal Bihari Vajpayee on behalf of the Government of India. The Nachiketa prize has been instituted by the Panchajanya group of publications, which just happens to be the inhouse publishing arm of the Rashtriya Svayamsevak Sangh (RSS) Gautier's services as the South Asia Correspondent of the French newspaper, Le Figaro were terminated in 2000 on the grounds of his obviously biased (and often factually compromised) reportage. He has since then, spent time acting as the chief public relations point man for Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, and getting even closer to sections of the political far right in India. Apologies for this lengthy response, but I think it is necessary to have a few facts straight about FACT. Our patriots, while they have a great deal of enthusiasm, are not generally well known for precision, and the boring matter of attempting to maintain a consistency with, em, the facts. regards, Shuddha On 12-Jul-08, at 11:09 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Hi Pankhuree, > > You can check the online exhibition here: > > Here it is. > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/2469417/Naxal-Low-Res- > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/3907033/5-new-panels > For More details Mr. Veeru might be contacted here - Mob: +91 93912 > 45303 > +91 98719 49094 > > Thanks indeed, > Aditya Raj Kaul > Campaign Blog - www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > > On 7/12/08, pankhuree dube wrote: >> >> >> Hi Mr. Kaul, >> Thank you for forwarding a description of this exhibit. It sounds >> fascinating. Do you know if there are any plans to make it >> available online >> so that individuals who are not able to view it in India can have >> a chance >> to read further about it? >> I would very much like to be able to see it firsthand, but even a >> brief >> description of the findings and perhaps a list of resources for >> further >> reading would be of great interest to me.Many thanks, >> Pankhuree >>> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 22:31:40 +0530> From: >>> kauladityaraj at gmail.com> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FACT >> Exhibition at >> IHC> > *FACT INDIA: Exhibition on Naxalism opens in India Habitat >> Centre*> > >> *The Naxalism: A threat to Unified nation of India* The Exhibition >> is a> >> reflection of the Maoist insurgency in India, a blend of photographs> >> statistics and ofcourse an analysis and a presentation of FACTS. The> >> exhibition will be open for visitors at the INDIA HAbitat centre from >> *8-14th> july 2008*. The exhibition has already travelled to Oslo >> and was >> screened on> the sidelines of "The Conference on Peace and >> Reconciliation in >> South Asia -> Challenges and Opportunities."> > *The Exhibition* >> travels >> through the lives of the victims in the Naxal> infested states and >> present >> their lives as well as the lives of those> vallant fighters both >> civilian >> and from the government. Its the Fight> against terrorism the idea of >> killing because one doesnt believe or just> disagree with the others, >> Intolerence and disharmony.> > > > Timings: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 >> - Monday, >> July 14, 2008> > Venue: India Habitat Center, < >> http://upcoming.yahoo.com/venue/131044/>Lodhi> Road, New Delhi> > > > >> Contact number:- Mr Veer 099871949094> > > -- > Thanks & regards> >> Rinku >> thusoo> Delhi> > http://kashmir-in-exile.blogspot.com> >> http://jokingbudha.blogspot.com> __._,_.___ Messages in this topic> < >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/message/ >> 4045;_ylc=X3oDMTM1OWhsbmZtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycHN >> wSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARtc2dJZAM0MDQ1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTIx >> NTc4NDk2OAR0cGNJZAM0MDQ1>> >> (1) Reply (via web post)> < >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >> post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMXNpMHRhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycHN >> wSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARtc2dJZAM0MDQ1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTIx >> NTc4NDk2OA--?act=reply&messageNum=4045>|> >> Start a new topic> < >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >> post;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZGlxM3ZsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycHN >> wSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Njg->> >> Messages< >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >> messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNTJ0cm5tBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGd >> ycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNtc2dzBHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Njg- >> >|> >> Files< >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >> files;_ylc=X3oDMTJnNjA5ZjdhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycH >> NwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNmaWxlcwRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4>|> >> Photos< >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >> photos;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNnJjdjluBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdyc >> HNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNwaG90BHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Njg- >> >|> >> Links< >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >> links;_ylc=X3oDMTJnN3NvN3NpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycH >> NwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNsaW5rcwRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4>|> >> Database< >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >> database;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMWU1OXNuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGd >> ycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNkYgRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4>|> >> Polls< >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >> polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJnYmw3dnYzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycH >> NwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNwb2xscwRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4>|> >> Members< >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >> members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbzYyNXQ1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdy >> cHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Njg-> >> |> >> Calendar< >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >> calendar;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZjZjaWNwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGd >> ycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNjYWwEc3RpbWUDMTIxNTc4NDk2OA-- >> >> >> MARKETPLACE> ------------------------------> Special offer for Yahoo! >> Groups> < >> http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13r4sn4qb/ >> M=624381.12730922.13032918.10835568/D=groups/S=1708343758:MKP1/ >> Y=YAHOO/EXP=1215792168/L=/B=8d5RAELaX9w-/J=1215784968592283/ >> A=5396680/R=0/SIG=14e7adlkt/*http://media.adrevolver.com/ >> adrevolver/href?banner=197791&place=26143&url_=http:// >> tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/display.com?cid=bbi00027>from> >> Blockbuster! 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Groups> > Real Food >>> Group< >> http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13o1vgd34/ >> M=493064.12016243.13036160.8674578/D=groups/S=1708343758:NC/ >> Y=YAHOO/EXP=1215792168/L=/B=9N5RAELaX9w-/J=1215784968592283/ >> A=5379228/R=0/SIG=11gatb1qb/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/ >> hellmanns/>> >>> Share recipes> > and favorite meals.> .> > __,_._,___> >> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open >> discussion >> list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To >> subscribe: send >> an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the >> subject >> header.> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < >> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Making the world a better place one message at a time. >> http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From rama.sangye at gmail.com Sat Jul 12 14:47:13 2008 From: rama.sangye at gmail.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:47:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] FACT Exhibition at IHC In-Reply-To: <035EDB06-2832-4B9B-A1E4-32CDF430C10E@sarai.net> References: <4057fac40807110702p2f2b44fbxb9ce8a9ff1926ac9@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807111001u7fe28e50g12939b4f4235f1ca@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807112239j380c34bfq8bcd7b3689aed134@mail.gmail.com> <035EDB06-2832-4B9B-A1E4-32CDF430C10E@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6ade4a8f0807120217x284eb0d0s12cc30e5cd09bd8b@mail.gmail.com> In the context of the discussion on Naxalism etc, here is a article by Sumanta Banerjee that appeared recently in the EPW. V Ramaswamy Calcutta cuckooscall.blogspot.com ................. On the Naxalite Movement: A Report with a Difference By Sumanta Banerjee. *An EPW article* The official bibliography on causes of popular discontent in India and ways to tackle it has been expanding at as impressive a rate as discontent itself. Our government can boast of a staggering collection of statistical data, reports of investigations, research papers, recommendations, among other things, that by its sheer size can absolutely bowl over any archivist. Amongst the major institutions, the Planning Commission can claim to be the most reliable repository of comprehensive information of such a nature – and also a helpless witness to the government's unpardonable apathy to its important proposals for remedying the situation all these years. Further, the commission's role has been reduced from the position of a steering to that of a merely indicative nature by the present generation of policymakers, who prefer to leave planning to the magnates of the market economy, instead of the state. Yet, the government's need for hard statistical facts and figures, and understanding of what is happening at the ground level (apart from the feedback provided by its intelligence agencies), makes it dependent on the intellectual resources of the still extant Planning Commission. It thus periodically sets up expert groups which review the state of poverty, collect, verify, and collate facts, arrange and then make deductions from them to prepare reports. As a result, we are lucky enough to get, at regular intervals, immense information that lay bare the grassroots reality – some confirming what we had always known, some revealing hitherto unknown, even worse, cases of atrocities on the poor. Along with such information, these reports also end up with the usual obligatory list of remedial measures – which may sound repetitive, but cannot be wished away since they had remained unimplemented all these years. The latest exercise in this direction is the report of an expert group set up by the Planning Commission entitled Development Challenges in Extremist Affected Areas, dated March 2008. It is an important document, which while meticulously arranging the latest facts and figures, rigorously examines the causes of the continuing economic exploitation and social discrimination in the adivasi and dalit-inhabited areas even after 60 years of independence. It is significant that this particular expert group was set up by the government in May 2006, in the background of increasing Naxalite activities in Andhra Pradesh, Chhattisgarh, Bihar, Jharkhand and Orissa. The group consisted of a variety of people ranging from veteran ex-bureaucrats (like D Bandyopadhya who chaired it, and is well known for his implementing the Operation Barga land reform measure in West Bengal, and S R Sankaran who heads the Hyderabad-based Committee of Concerned Citizens which had been trying to bring the Andhra Pradesh government and the Maoist rebels to the negotiating table) to retired police officers like Prakash Singh, ex-director general of police, Uttar Pradesh and Ajit Doval, former director of the Intelligence Bureau. From the other end of the spectrum, we have well known activists and academics like K Balagopal of the human rights movement and Sukhadeo Thorat, chairman of the University Grants Commission among others. That a mixed bag of this nature, consisting of experts from different disciplines with differing opinions, could prepare a consensus report on several contentious issues and come up with a unanimously agreed set of recommendations, suggests that all is not lost. Activists struggling for a change in the prevailing bleak socio-political situation, can make use of the report to educate the otherwise indifferent and passive middle classes about the basic issues of economic equity and social justice, which are fast disappearing in the urban public mind. *Dalits, Adivasis and Naxalites* Although the terms of reference did not specifically mention Naxalites (or Maoists), the group's brief was to identify causes of unrest and discontent in areas affected by "widespread displacement, forest issues, insecure tenancies and others forms of exploitation like usury, land alienation and imperfect market conditions…". Clearly, such areas fall in the above-mentioned five states – and significantly enough, the group organised field visits in these areas to observe the situation at first hand, on the basis of which it has come out with stark revelations that expose the culpability of the state in denying the poor their basic rights, the treachery of a corrupt bureaucracy to implement the laws, and its complicity with a trigger-happy police to suppress popular protest. All these explain, as the report states in unambiguous terms, why the victims of such official crimes support the "extremists" – the term used for Maoists. Maintaining that "the main support for the Naxalite movement comes from dalits and adivasis", the group concentrated on these two sections (termed as scheduled castes and scheduled tribes respectively in official parlance) which comprise about one-fourth of India's population, the majority living in rural areas. Apart from the high levels of poverty, the dalits suffer from various types of disadvantages like limited employment opportunities, political marginalisation, low education, social discrimination, and human rights violation. As for the adivasi population, besides remaining backward in all aspects of human development including education, health, nutrition, etc, they have been steadily losing their traditional tribal rights and command over resources. The report points out in this connection the administration's failure to implement the protective regulations in scheduled areas, which has resulted in land alienation, forced eviction from land, dependence of the tribals on moneylenders – made worse often by "violence by the state functionaries". All these facts as described in the report may not come as a surprise to those who have followed the findings of earlier publications like the National Commission on scheduled castes and scheduled tribes; the government of India Report of the Expert Group on Prevention of Alienation of Tribal Land and Its Restoration (2004), as well as the various reports by civil rights groups. But the present report stands out from them in several respects. It explains the causes and success of the Naxalite movement in a particular territorial stretch by locating it in the macroeconomic scene today. Incidentally, every dalit and adivasi poor in India have not joined the Naxalite movement. There are many states with pockets of high proportion of adivasis and dalits but little Naxalite influence, as in Punjab, Haryana, Gujarat and Rajasthan. The report quite rightly points out that "poverty does create deprivation but other factors like denial of justice, human dignity, cause alienation resulting in the conviction that relief can be had outside the system by breaking the current order asunder". It adds that for such a violent upheaval to happen, there is the likelihood of the "spread of awareness and consciousness". And this is where, as the report suggests, the Maoists have played a significant role by stepping into the craters of dalit and adivasi deprivation in the five states, and organising the deprived for their rights. Its authors situate the Naxalite movement in the historical context of the "development paradigm pursued since independence", which they assert, has "aggravated the prevailing discontent among marginalised sections of society". While explaining the current surge in Naxalite activities, they slam the neoliberal "directional shift in government policies towards modernisation and mechanisation, export orientation, diversification to produce for the market, withdrawal of various subsidy regimes and exposure to global trade" as "an important factor in hurting the poor in several ways". Following this conceptual approach, they look at the Maoist movement in a way that is different from the prevalent official attitude which primarily blames the Naxalites for the violence. Instead, the present report lays stress on the "structural violence which is implicit in the social and economic system" and which in the opinion of its authors prompts the radical groups to justify their own violent acts. At the same time, the authors distance themselves from the Naxalites, who "are engaged in a violent fight against the state for overpowering and overthrowing it", and who, they feel "exploit the situation for their own political gain by giving the affected persons some semblance of relief or response. Thereby they tend to legitimise in the eyes of the masses their own legal or even illegal activities." Yet, the authors of the report have to admit that the Naxalites have indeed carried out certain socio-economic reforms in their areas of control. *Naxalites as a Surrogate State* >From the investigation carried out by the Planning Commission group of experts in the Naxalite areas, it appears that the Maoists are actually carrying out the reforms that the executive ought to have implemented, and are replacing the judiciary and the police in ensuring law and order for the poor and the oppressed. Take for instance their findings relating to land redistribution. In Bihar, the government had taken under its possession land which had been declared as beyond the ceiling that a landlord can own. The government, the report states, "has the power to distribute such land to the poor, but has failed to do so". On the other hand, "the Naxalite movement has succeeded in helping the landless to occupy a substantial extent of government land whether for homesteads or for cultivation". Similarly, in the forest areas of Andhra Pradesh, Chhattisgarh, the Vidarbha region of Maharashtra, Orissa and Jharkhand, the Naxalites have led the adivasis to occupy forest lands that they should have enjoyed in the normal course of things under their traditionally recognised rights, but which were denied by government officials through forest settlement proceedings that have "taken place behind the back and over the head of the adivasi forest dwellers". While the government remained indifferent to the need for paying minimum wages to the adivasi tendu leaf gatherers in Andhra Pradesh, the Naxalites by launching a movement have secured increases in the rate of payment for the picking. The practice of forced labour ('begari') in the same state, under which the toiling castes had to provide free labour to the upper castes – and which should have been abolished by the government under Articles 14 to 17 of the Constitution – was done away with due to a "major upsurge led by the Naxalites in the late 1970s and early 1980s of the last century…". Commenting on the "peoples courts" set up by the Naxalites in their areas of control, the report observes that "disputes are resolved in a rough and ready manner, and generally in the interest of the weaker party". While drawing our attention to these positive effects of the Naxalite movement, the authors of the report also come out against the high level of violence that its cadres indulge in, and from a bourgeois democratic liberal viewpoint assert: "…no state could agree to a situation of seizure of power through violence when the Constitution provides for change of government through electoral process." But their findings also reveal how despite change of government, successive rulers who get elected use and misuse laws to suppress the poor and the disadvantaged. There is a design behind this continuity. The rulers, irrespective of party affiliations, are lackadaisical and sloppy in implementing pro-poor legal measures. But the moment the Maoists try to enforce those measures they are quick to use against them with extreme efficiency another set of laws – the draconian laws that have been enacted over the years (e g, Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act; Chhattisgarh Public Security Act; Andhra Pradesh (Suppression of Disturbances) Act, etc). As the authors of the report rightly observe, Naxalite attempts to redistribute land have been "defeated by the state's determined opposition to letting lawless means succeed, even for the beneficial purpose of giving land to the landless". In order to put an end to this anomalous state of affairs where the law enforcement agencies breach the laws while the lawless "extremists" enforce them, the authors of the report have recommended among other things modifications to some laws (e g, the Land Acquisition Act), effective implementation of protective laws in favour of the dalits and adivasis, better coordination between different programmes (e g, Backward Region Grant Fund and National Rural Employment Guarantee Programme), and extension of panchayati raj to the scheduled areas. Asserting that the Naxalite movement has to be "recognised as a political movement with a strong base among the landless and poor peasantry and adivasis", they warn the government against resorting to "security-centric" measures like setting up vigilante groups such as Salwa Judum in Chhattisgarh. Instead, they have called for "an ameliorative approach with emphasis on a negotiated solution", and urged the government for a resumption of the peace talks with the Naxalites which was initiated in October 2004, but broke down in January 2005. Their proposal should be welcomed by all. But the authors should have gone into the causes of the failure of the past talks. To recapitulate, the government of Andhra Pradesh sat with the then People's War Group (now merged into Communist Party of India-Maoist) in October 2004, and agreed to a ceasefire till December 16 that year, and promised to consider in the meantime the Naxalites' main demand for distribution of land among the landless. But when the then Congress government failed to keep that promise, the Naxalites stepped in to forcibly distribute the land. The government retaliated immediately by sending its police which gunned down Naxalite cadres in the forests of Warangal, West Godavari and other districts in January 2005. (Yet another example of the state's abdication of responsibility for helping the landless, followed by its active intervention to oppose whenever the Naxalite try to carry out that responsibility.) At that time, the Naxalites came out with a public statement blaming the state police for violating the norms of the October truce, and withdrew from the talks. *Future of a Negotiated Settlement* Given this background, if there is to be another round of talks, both the Maoists and the Indian state have to be circumspect, balancing their respective long-term objectives with their immediate goals. The Maoists may have to shelve their maximalist aim of seizure of power for the time being, and negotiate with the state in the humanitarian interest of the thousands of poor and innocent families who have been caught in the crossfire between the police and the Naxalites. As for the Indian state, let us be frank. In quite a large swathe of inaccessible territory, the state's writ does not run, and the Naxalites have been able to establish a parallel and alternative order that has largely benefited the poor – especially the dalits and adivasis (as acknowledged by the present report, despite reservations about their violent methods). In any future talks therefore, the state should recognise this reality and legitimise the positive Naxalite contribution to the implementation of the pro-poor laws – which the state had failed to carry out. In other words, the government should negotiate a settlement that allows the Naxalites to run their administration in their pockets of control – on the lines of the settlement arrived at with the Naga rebels of the National Socialist Council of Nagaland (Isak Muivah) who have not given up their arms and run a parallel government in parts of Nagaland. Referring to the Indian government's conciliatory approach to such insurrectionary groups, the authors of the report raise the legitimate question: "Why a different approach to the Naxals?" "The answer", as Bob Dylan sang, " 'is blowin' in the wind". From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 12 17:49:02 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 05:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] FACT Exhibition at IHC In-Reply-To: <6ade4a8f0807120217x284eb0d0s12cc30e5cd09bd8b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <77418.92575.qm@web57212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear VR   Thanks for sharing the article. It makes excellent points. "Excellent" perhaps from my point of view since I think similarly.   Though nowhere even closely as precise or scholarly in my expression and analyses, I had posted in (30/04/08 in SARAI) somewhat similar thoughts. Simple thoughts. Taking the liberty of reproducing them.   K   --- On Wed, 4/30/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote:   Dear Shivam       For a 'middle-pather' (generally) like me, your piece articulated most of my own understandings, concerns and questions.       The summarising comment by you "The naxalites have just filled in the vaccum in places where the Indian state didn't exist....." is very appropiate (to my way of thinking).       I would not know about there being an 'urgent need' (for the Naxalites) to enter that "vaccum" other than to serve ideological end-points. That need not neccessarily be redeeming.       I would rather see the "vaccum" as a fertile and convienient space invitingly available for a formalised "Naxalite Movement" to enter. Not just only for the Naxalites, in my opinion that particular "vaccum" is 'convienient space invitingly available' for any 'extremist movement' to enter and it is easily done.       There are many such "vaccums" in different parts of the country (India) arising out of varied environments. A common linkage between their geneses is lack of, or more aptly described perhaps, total absence of (legal) governance.       The recourse to rectification should have been through the Courts of Law. Unfortunately, the 'justice system' itself is corrupted. My analogy for explaining "corrupted" is a music CD that (unstatedly) is supposed to 'deliver' content after the purchase (contract) is done with and the CD either does not allow easy access or 'deliver' promised content as it should but is 'corrupted'. A 'corrupted justice system' has many more serious ailments than just corrupt officers of the Court. (need not explain I think)       Even if the justice system were not as 'corrupted' as it is, it cannot be a potent institution in the absence of a supportive 'environment of justice'. That 'environment of justice' has to lie seeped into and resident in every aspect of the citizen's relationships and interactions whether in private or in the public domain (need not explain I think).       Those citizens who are placed in situations of biases, prejudices and an exploitative environment mounted against them (proactively or by historically being placed so) have two simple options of choosing to continue to suffer (and hoping for charitable interventions by individual or institutions) or reacting sharply in the declaration of their non-acceptance.       What form will that reaction take for those who are of the mind "I will not accept this"? There are many possiblities but what is pertinent here is the pooling in of the resentment and non-acceptance of many individuals affected similarly.       In the 'regulated' domain of the economy (India specific comment), which primarlily is the Large and Medium Scale Industrial sector the 'pooled in non-acceptance' is easily expressed by "rail roko", "raasta roko", "pen down strike", "general strike" etc. The participants however have the security of a job which they are unlikely to lose unless they do something totally stupid, and in most cases have powerful Unions running the show of strategised 'strikes' and subsequent negotiatiations addressing their 'demands'.       Such of those disaffected who do not have the luxury of such supports (most of the small-scale industry workers, agricultural workers, stigmatised caste groups and the like) are residents of that "vaccum" which offers a 'convienient space invitingly available' for any 'extremist movement' to enter.       Does it have to be 'extremist'? I do not see much choice in that if  there is the absence of 'legal governance' and an 'envirionment of justice' and a "not corrupted justice system" and if these three elements do not recognise the malaise and intervene speedily, justly, appropiately and effectively then an "extremist movement" taking roots in or entering the "vaccum" should not come as a surprise.       It could be the bearers of any kind of an "extremist movement" flag who herald for the "residents" of the "vaccum" the coming of a 'new age' as long as the "residents" collect under the offered flag. The flag could be Naxal-Red, Hindutva-Saffron, Islamist-Green or Christian-White. The flag could be in the name of a "Pappu" or a "Bhaiya" or a "Bhai"       In this embracing of an 'extremist movement' must the individual or a collective take recourse to violence? What other option is available?  "Extremism" functions on the outskirts of the 'system' both questioning it and attacking it. Any non-violent remedial measures are likely to be only through avenues from within the 'system', in which case it is not an 'extremist movement' any longer.       Which brings me to Kanshi Ram, Dalits, BSP and Mayawati. But thats another story.       Kshmendra Kaul --- On Sat, 7/12/08, V Ramaswamy wrote: From: V Ramaswamy Subject: [Reader-list] FACT Exhibition at IHC To: "reader-list at sarai.net" Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 2:47 PM In the context of the discussion on Naxalism etc, here is a article by Sumanta Banerjee that appeared recently in the EPW. V Ramaswamy Calcutta cuckooscall.blogspot.com ................. On the Naxalite Movement: A Report with a Difference By Sumanta Banerjee. *An EPW article* The official bibliography on causes of popular discontent in India and ways to tackle it has been expanding at as impressive a rate as discontent itself. Our government can boast of a staggering collection of statistical data, reports of investigations, research papers, recommendations, among other things, that by its sheer size can absolutely bowl over any archivist. Amongst the major institutions, the Planning Commission can claim to be the most reliable repository of comprehensive information of such a nature – and also a helpless witness to the government's unpardonable apathy to its important proposals for remedying the situation all these years. Further, the commission's role has been reduced from the position of a steering to that of a merely indicative nature by the present generation of policymakers, who prefer to leave planning to the magnates of the market economy, instead of the state. Yet, the government's need for hard statistical facts and figures, and understanding of what is happening at the ground level (apart from the feedback provided by its intelligence agencies), makes it dependent on the intellectual resources of the still extant Planning Commission. It thus periodically sets up expert groups which review the state of poverty, collect, verify, and collate facts, arrange and then make deductions from them to prepare reports. As a result, we are lucky enough to get, at regular intervals, immense information that lay bare the grassroots reality – some confirming what we had always known, some revealing hitherto unknown, even worse, cases of atrocities on the poor. Along with such information, these reports also end up with the usual obligatory list of remedial measures – which may sound repetitive, but cannot be wished away since they had remained unimplemented all these years. The latest exercise in this direction is the report of an expert group set up by the Planning Commission entitled Development Challenges in Extremist Affected Areas, dated March 2008. It is an important document, which while meticulously arranging the latest facts and figures, rigorously examines the causes of the continuing economic exploitation and social discrimination in the adivasi and dalit-inhabited areas even after 60 years of independence. It is significant that this particular expert group was set up by the government in May 2006, in the background of increasing Naxalite activities in Andhra Pradesh, Chhattisgarh, Bihar, Jharkhand and Orissa. The group consisted of a variety of people ranging from veteran ex-bureaucrats (like D Bandyopadhya who chaired it, and is well known for his implementing the Operation Barga land reform measure in West Bengal, and S R Sankaran who heads the Hyderabad-based Committee of Concerned Citizens which had been trying to bring the Andhra Pradesh government and the Maoist rebels to the negotiating table) to retired police officers like Prakash Singh, ex-director general of police, Uttar Pradesh and Ajit Doval, former director of the Intelligence Bureau. From the other end of the spectrum, we have well known activists and academics like K Balagopal of the human rights movement and Sukhadeo Thorat, chairman of the University Grants Commission among others. That a mixed bag of this nature, consisting of experts from different disciplines with differing opinions, could prepare a consensus report on several contentious issues and come up with a unanimously agreed set of recommendations, suggests that all is not lost. Activists struggling for a change in the prevailing bleak socio-political situation, can make use of the report to educate the otherwise indifferent and passive middle classes about the basic issues of economic equity and social justice, which are fast disappearing in the urban public mind. *Dalits, Adivasis and Naxalites* Although the terms of reference did not specifically mention Naxalites (or Maoists), the group's brief was to identify causes of unrest and discontent in areas affected by "widespread displacement, forest issues, insecure tenancies and others forms of exploitation like usury, land alienation and imperfect market conditions…". Clearly, such areas fall in the above-mentioned five states – and significantly enough, the group organised field visits in these areas to observe the situation at first hand, on the basis of which it has come out with stark revelations that expose the culpability of the state in denying the poor their basic rights, the treachery of a corrupt bureaucracy to implement the laws, and its complicity with a trigger-happy police to suppress popular protest. All these explain, as the report states in unambiguous terms, why the victims of such official crimes support the "extremists" – the term used for Maoists. Maintaining that "the main support for the Naxalite movement comes from dalits and adivasis", the group concentrated on these two sections (termed as scheduled castes and scheduled tribes respectively in official parlance) which comprise about one-fourth of India's population, the majority living in rural areas. Apart from the high levels of poverty, the dalits suffer from various types of disadvantages like limited employment opportunities, political marginalisation, low education, social discrimination, and human rights violation. As for the adivasi population, besides remaining backward in all aspects of human development including education, health, nutrition, etc, they have been steadily losing their traditional tribal rights and command over resources. The report points out in this connection the administration's failure to implement the protective regulations in scheduled areas, which has resulted in land alienation, forced eviction from land, dependence of the tribals on moneylenders – made worse often by "violence by the state functionaries". All these facts as described in the report may not come as a surprise to those who have followed the findings of earlier publications like the National Commission on scheduled castes and scheduled tribes; the government of India Report of the Expert Group on Prevention of Alienation of Tribal Land and Its Restoration (2004), as well as the various reports by civil rights groups. But the present report stands out from them in several respects. It explains the causes and success of the Naxalite movement in a particular territorial stretch by locating it in the macroeconomic scene today. Incidentally, every dalit and adivasi poor in India have not joined the Naxalite movement. There are many states with pockets of high proportion of adivasis and dalits but little Naxalite influence, as in Punjab, Haryana, Gujarat and Rajasthan. The report quite rightly points out that "poverty does create deprivation but other factors like denial of justice, human dignity, cause alienation resulting in the conviction that relief can be had outside the system by breaking the current order asunder". It adds that for such a violent upheaval to happen, there is the likelihood of the "spread of awareness and consciousness". And this is where, as the report suggests, the Maoists have played a significant role by stepping into the craters of dalit and adivasi deprivation in the five states, and organising the deprived for their rights. Its authors situate the Naxalite movement in the historical context of the "development paradigm pursued since independence", which they assert, has "aggravated the prevailing discontent among marginalised sections of society". While explaining the current surge in Naxalite activities, they slam the neoliberal "directional shift in government policies towards modernisation and mechanisation, export orientation, diversification to produce for the market, withdrawal of various subsidy regimes and exposure to global trade" as "an important factor in hurting the poor in several ways". Following this conceptual approach, they look at the Maoist movement in a way that is different from the prevalent official attitude which primarily blames the Naxalites for the violence. Instead, the present report lays stress on the "structural violence which is implicit in the social and economic system" and which in the opinion of its authors prompts the radical groups to justify their own violent acts. At the same time, the authors distance themselves from the Naxalites, who "are engaged in a violent fight against the state for overpowering and overthrowing it", and who, they feel "exploit the situation for their own political gain by giving the affected persons some semblance of relief or response. Thereby they tend to legitimise in the eyes of the masses their own legal or even illegal activities." Yet, the authors of the report have to admit that the Naxalites have indeed carried out certain socio-economic reforms in their areas of control. *Naxalites as a Surrogate State* >From the investigation carried out by the Planning Commission group of experts in the Naxalite areas, it appears that the Maoists are actually carrying out the reforms that the executive ought to have implemented, and are replacing the judiciary and the police in ensuring law and order for the poor and the oppressed. Take for instance their findings relating to land redistribution. In Bihar, the government had taken under its possession land which had been declared as beyond the ceiling that a landlord can own. The government, the report states, "has the power to distribute such land to the poor, but has failed to do so". On the other hand, "the Naxalite movement has succeeded in helping the landless to occupy a substantial extent of government land whether for homesteads or for cultivation". Similarly, in the forest areas of Andhra Pradesh, Chhattisgarh, the Vidarbha region of Maharashtra, Orissa and Jharkhand, the Naxalites have led the adivasis to occupy forest lands that they should have enjoyed in the normal course of things under their traditionally recognised rights, but which were denied by government officials through forest settlement proceedings that have "taken place behind the back and over the head of the adivasi forest dwellers". While the government remained indifferent to the need for paying minimum wages to the adivasi tendu leaf gatherers in Andhra Pradesh, the Naxalites by launching a movement have secured increases in the rate of payment for the picking. The practice of forced labour ('begari') in the same state, under which the toiling castes had to provide free labour to the upper castes – and which should have been abolished by the government under Articles 14 to 17 of the Constitution – was done away with due to a "major upsurge led by the Naxalites in the late 1970s and early 1980s of the last century…". Commenting on the "peoples courts" set up by the Naxalites in their areas of control, the report observes that "disputes are resolved in a rough and ready manner, and generally in the interest of the weaker party". While drawing our attention to these positive effects of the Naxalite movement, the authors of the report also come out against the high level of violence that its cadres indulge in, and from a bourgeois democratic liberal viewpoint assert: "…no state could agree to a situation of seizure of power through violence when the Constitution provides for change of government through electoral process." But their findings also reveal how despite change of government, successive rulers who get elected use and misuse laws to suppress the poor and the disadvantaged. There is a design behind this continuity. The rulers, irrespective of party affiliations, are lackadaisical and sloppy in implementing pro-poor legal measures. But the moment the Maoists try to enforce those measures they are quick to use against them with extreme efficiency another set of laws – the draconian laws that have been enacted over the years (e g, Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act; Chhattisgarh Public Security Act; Andhra Pradesh (Suppression of Disturbances) Act, etc). As the authors of the report rightly observe, Naxalite attempts to redistribute land have been "defeated by the state's determined opposition to letting lawless means succeed, even for the beneficial purpose of giving land to the landless". In order to put an end to this anomalous state of affairs where the law enforcement agencies breach the laws while the lawless "extremists" enforce them, the authors of the report have recommended among other things modifications to some laws (e g, the Land Acquisition Act), effective implementation of protective laws in favour of the dalits and adivasis, better coordination between different programmes (e g, Backward Region Grant Fund and National Rural Employment Guarantee Programme), and extension of panchayati raj to the scheduled areas. Asserting that the Naxalite movement has to be "recognised as a political movement with a strong base among the landless and poor peasantry and adivasis", they warn the government against resorting to "security-centric" measures like setting up vigilante groups such as Salwa Judum in Chhattisgarh. Instead, they have called for "an ameliorative approach with emphasis on a negotiated solution", and urged the government for a resumption of the peace talks with the Naxalites which was initiated in October 2004, but broke down in January 2005. Their proposal should be welcomed by all. But the authors should have gone into the causes of the failure of the past talks. To recapitulate, the government of Andhra Pradesh sat with the then People's War Group (now merged into Communist Party of India-Maoist) in October 2004, and agreed to a ceasefire till December 16 that year, and promised to consider in the meantime the Naxalites' main demand for distribution of land among the landless. But when the then Congress government failed to keep that promise, the Naxalites stepped in to forcibly distribute the land. The government retaliated immediately by sending its police which gunned down Naxalite cadres in the forests of Warangal, West Godavari and other districts in January 2005. (Yet another example of the state's abdication of responsibility for helping the landless, followed by its active intervention to oppose whenever the Naxalite try to carry out that responsibility.) At that time, the Naxalites came out with a public statement blaming the state police for violating the norms of the October truce, and withdrew from the talks. *Future of a Negotiated Settlement* Given this background, if there is to be another round of talks, both the Maoists and the Indian state have to be circumspect, balancing their respective long-term objectives with their immediate goals. The Maoists may have to shelve their maximalist aim of seizure of power for the time being, and negotiate with the state in the humanitarian interest of the thousands of poor and innocent families who have been caught in the crossfire between the police and the Naxalites. As for the Indian state, let us be frank. In quite a large swathe of inaccessible territory, the state's writ does not run, and the Naxalites have been able to establish a parallel and alternative order that has largely benefited the poor – especially the dalits and adivasis (as acknowledged by the present report, despite reservations about their violent methods). In any future talks therefore, the state should recognise this reality and legitimise the positive Naxalite contribution to the implementation of the pro-poor laws – which the state had failed to carry out. In other words, the government should negotiate a settlement that allows the Naxalites to run their administration in their pockets of control – on the lines of the settlement arrived at with the Naga rebels of the National Socialist Council of Nagaland (Isak Muivah) who have not given up their arms and run a parallel government in parts of Nagaland. Referring to the Indian government's conciliatory approach to such insurrectionary groups, the authors of the report raise the legitimate question: "Why a different approach to the Naxals?" "The answer", as Bob Dylan sang, " 'is blowin' in the wind". _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Jul 12 18:19:23 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 18:19:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807110607j3d5607b3hdc110c47ebfd4b28@mail.gmail.com> References: <7F36D1DA-4DCE-42EF-A812-2887B32CFE94@sarai.net> <9c06aab30807110607j3d5607b3hdc110c47ebfd4b28@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70807120549m2c87224avb1eebb4b3293cebc@mail.gmail.com> dear all it is indeed theatre of absurd at its best. when Left instructs a party worker to declare that the nuclear deal is not in the interest of Muslims, i too found them true imitators of Right wing politics. Both BJP and Left had indeed similar schooling. Congress is no difficult from this... we are in fact reapiing the fruits of sins of congress.... presently, the question is why the oil per barrel should stop at even 200 dollars. and why it wont demand 2000 dollars and in that case what is going to happen to world economy.... we will perhpas know who are acutal beneficiery of this oil price rise but right now, even British Brown is willing to start nuclear energy programme as long term measure to meet the requirements... so people living in non-oily parts of earth are likely to feel the pressure. nuclear is too risky and is not enviormnet friendly....and who knows how much of it will for the weapons production solar engery is an alternative, but that is still at experimental stage, any debates what we need to do if the style of living will march forward the way is seems at the moment ? inder salim On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 6:37 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > Dear Shuddha, > > When in a post on the Hyde Act and the 123 agreement a few days ago > you had predicted that the Left and the BJP would come closer, I had > felt, to be honest, that that is coming from someone's imagination who > hates the Indian Left and the Right in equal measure. Apart from the > Advani interview on the Hindu, the report below, by Navika Kumar on > Times Now yesterday, leaves no doubt about an entente cordiale. So > much for the endless, banal explanations about how > we're-supporting-the-Congress-to-keep-BJP-out. > > best > shivam > > > Left-BJP in talks to corner govt > > 7/10/2008 4:46:24 PM > http://timesnow.tv/Newsdtls.aspx?NewsID=11306 > > After the Left parties withdrew support on Tuesday (July 8) from the > Centre following the UPA government's stand on the Indo-US Nuclear > deal issue after PM Manmohan Singh went ahead to the IAEA with the > safeguards agreement, it is learnt that the Left has now touched base > with the BJP through interlocutors to discuss floor coordination > strategy in a bid to oppose the Indo-US nuke deal. > > Sources have told TIMES NOW that the Left has established contact with > the BJP, through interlocutors, who are neither part of the National > Democratic Alliance (NDA) or the Left. > > The focus of the discussion is likely to be on the floor coordination > strategy that the Left and the NDA could adopt, once the government > moves for a trust vote. > > Alternately, in case the government does not seek the confidence vote, > the focus will be on the party that would move the 'no confidence > motion', the BJP, Left or a third non-alligned party. > > Earlier, External Affairs Minister in a press conference announced > that the government will go ahead with the nuclear deal only after > Parliament approval. However, the draft for the India-specific > safeguards agreement was sent to the IAEA last night (Wednesday, July > 9). > > Yesterday (July 9), the leaders of the four Left parties submitted a > list of 60 MPs and a joint letter signed by leaders of -- CPM, CPI, > RSP and Forward Block to the President Pratibha Patil -- to seek a > vote confidence in the Lok Sabha immediately. > > On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 4:37 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: >> Dear All, >> >> I find it sad that all those who live in India are being sent >> headlong into a period of turbulence following the unilateral >> decision by the so-called Left parties in response to the Indo-US >> Nuclear Deal. In all likelihood, if the government of the day fails >> to pass the test of numbers on the floor of parliament, India will >> head straight for early elections. The likely beneficiary of this >> process will be the BJP, and if, going by the extensive coverage that >> the Hindu, usually the mainstream media mouthpiece of the so called >> Communist Party of India (Marxist) has given to L.K. Advani (the >> billowing PM in waiting of the BJP), then, it needs to be read as a >> sign of things to come. A covert entente cordiale between the so >> called Left and the Right in Indian politics. Or, in other words, >> Prakash Karat handing L.K. Advani the prime-ministership on a >> platter. A decade or so ago, while Harkrishen Singh Surjeet was >> 'managing' the Congress on behalf of the CPI(M), a similar covert >> entente cordiale between the so called Left and the Congress (which >> matured into a full fledged partnership) was as unthinkable, as what >> augurs, when the 'Patriots' of the Left and the Right begin dancing >> their secret tango. >> >> In this entire episode, everyone has come out in glorious colours, >> the Congress with its pathetic kow-towing to US interests under the >> stewardship of George Bush, the Left with its myopic Nuclear >> patriotism and its abdication of any responsibility towards >> developing a programme that is critical of the Indian state's Nuclear >> military ambitions, the BJP with its sabre rattling, the Socialists >> with their usual cynical opportunism. >> >> And so ends the brief humid Weimar of the Indian Republic. Let us >> celebrate its demise by recalling how pallid and banal it has already >> become. >> >> I guess we should all now get accustomed to the idea of Narendra >> Modi as a possible Union Minister of the Interior in the forthcoming >> years. >> >> best >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 12 18:20:13 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 05:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <7F36D1DA-4DCE-42EF-A812-2887B32CFE94@sarai.net> Message-ID: <243784.95721.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I have taken in two significant impressions from the events:   1. The Congress Party's (which has much to answer for when one thinks about "what is wrong with India) seeming willingness to risk losing "power" for the sake of sticking to positions that they declare are "in the Nation's interest".    2. The politicking in Mayawati's pronouncement "The nuclear deal is anti-Muslim". I believe that the BSP is the most (and perhaps only) significant political intiative in post-Independence India. But this statement ...   K --- On Fri, 7/11/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: "sarai list" Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 4:37 PM Dear All, I find it sad that all those who live in India are being sent headlong into a period of turbulence following the unilateral decision by the so-called Left parties in response to the Indo-US Nuclear Deal. In all likelihood, if the government of the day fails to pass the test of numbers on the floor of parliament, India will head straight for early elections. The likely beneficiary of this process will be the BJP, and if, going by the extensive coverage that the Hindu, usually the mainstream media mouthpiece of the so called Communist Party of India (Marxist) has given to L.K. Advani (the billowing PM in waiting of the BJP), then, it needs to be read as a sign of things to come. A covert entente cordiale between the so called Left and the Right in Indian politics. Or, in other words, Prakash Karat handing L.K. Advani the prime-ministership on a platter. A decade or so ago, while Harkrishen Singh Surjeet was 'managing' the Congress on behalf of the CPI(M), a similar covert entente cordiale between the so called Left and the Congress (which matured into a full fledged partnership) was as unthinkable, as what augurs, when the 'Patriots' of the Left and the Right begin dancing their secret tango. In this entire episode, everyone has come out in glorious colours, the Congress with its pathetic kow-towing to US interests under the stewardship of George Bush, the Left with its myopic Nuclear patriotism and its abdication of any responsibility towards developing a programme that is critical of the Indian state's Nuclear military ambitions, the BJP with its sabre rattling, the Socialists with their usual cynical opportunism. And so ends the brief humid Weimar of the Indian Republic. Let us celebrate its demise by recalling how pallid and banal it has already become. I guess we should all now get accustomed to the idea of Narendra Modi as a possible Union Minister of the Interior in the forthcoming years. best Shuddha Shuddhabrata Sengupta _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Sat Jul 12 18:31:04 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 18:31:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FACT Exhibition at IHC In-Reply-To: <035EDB06-2832-4B9B-A1E4-32CDF430C10E@sarai.net> References: <4057fac40807110702p2f2b44fbxb9ce8a9ff1926ac9@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807111001u7fe28e50g12939b4f4235f1ca@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807112239j380c34bfq8bcd7b3689aed134@mail.gmail.com> <035EDB06-2832-4B9B-A1E4-32CDF430C10E@sarai.net> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807120601j36fe8c5ax3833113dac85e0ec@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha, One is as usual grateful to you for illuminating what was deliberately hidden. Naxalism is the sort of far Left political mobilisation that evokes interesting responses from left, left-liberals, liberals-but-not-leftists, Marxists, post-Marxists - and similar gradients of the right. So it is indeed important to know where an anti-Naxal response is coming from, and so one is grateful for your frisking in this case. Just one thing: the civilian casualties you point to, no doubt include innocents killed by security forces, but they also include those who represent the Indian state but are not security personnel. This includes all those who are involved in mainstream, electoral politics and who are killed for just that. (To digress, this reminds of an important point made by Prashant Jha in this travel essay on Naxalism - http://www.himalmag.com/2007/december/cover_feature_india_naxatile.html - one that few make: Naxalism thrives where democratic politics was already weak, of left or right, and once Naxalism begins to take root, it prevents democratic politics from spreading.) In the case of Chhattisgarh, no doubt the civilian casualties are largely coming from Salwa Judum atrocities, but perhaps equally from Naxalites killing those who join Salwa Judum, or seek to, or refuse to join either. While Chattisgarh's average stats have an over-bearing of the Salwa Judum-caused figures, I think it is important to remember while talking of Naxalism that Salwa Judum is present only in one of the 160 (or whatever the claim is by whoever) districts that are "Naxalite affected". This is not to downplay the mayhem that a state-run militia is causing in the Dantewada district of the Basatar plateau, but Dantewada is not India. best shivam On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Aditya, dear Pankhuree, dear all, > > Thank you, Aditya, for forwarding information about the FACT > (Foundation Against Continuing Terrorism) sponsored exhibition > titled: 'Naxalism: A Threat to the Unified Nation of India' > > While I am no sympathizer of Maoism, or those who are either called > 'Maoists' or 'Naxalites' in India, I do have a few bones to pick with > the contents of the exhibition at the India Habitat Centre that you > have recommended to us. > > While looking at what pretends to be information of this nature it is > always useful to do a little thinking about numbers. The statistics > of casualties in the FACT exhibition are taken from the monthly > statistics and reports published in the South Asia Intelligence > Review by the South Asia Terrorism Portal, a think tank headed by the > notorious former Punjab police chief who masterminded disappearances > and the utilization of 'renegade' militants as an instrument of > policy in Punjab and the North East, architect of the Indian hockey > team's disasters and well known pincher of women's bottoms, Mr. KPS > GIll. I am a regular recipient of the SAIR and I happen to follow the > figures that are mentioned in its reports quite diligently. > > I have no quarrel with the reports, as such, as I have no way of > assessing their accuracy, or inaccuracy. However, I do have a quarrel > with the way in which this information is presented in the FACT > exhibition. In each instance, there is a heading called 'civilian > casualties' . Let us take the Table that says 'Naxal Violence in > Chattisgarh' and analyse the information given for the year 2007 > > " Security Forces Casualties 181 > Civilian Casualties 166 > Naxalites Killed 66 " > > What I find interesting is the figure for 'Civilian Casualties'. > Given in this way, it appears as if the 'Civilians' killed are due to > 'Naxal' violence. The sources of these figures, the SAIR bulletins, > simply title their tables as "Weekly Fatalities: Major Conflicts in > South Asia" , which in my opinion, is a far more precise way of > talking about the casualty figures, because it does not actually > attribute specific authorship to the violence. This is significant, > because the 'civilans' while they may be targetted on occasion by the > Maoists, are also, generally, in a far larger measure, targetted by > the security forces, and the 'Anti-Maoist' militia called the Salwa > Judum. So, when we see 'civilian casualties' we are looking at a > number of people who may have been killed, by 'Naxals', by security > forces, by militia like the 'Salwa Judum'. Since, 'Naxals' depend on > their survival on the sympathies (and to a certain extent, fear) of > the tribal poor, it is extremely unrealistic to deduce that they > would in fact be the primary authors of the violence that is > described as 'civilian casualties'. Numerous investigations report > that the actual primary authors of this violence are the security > forces, and the Salwa Judum, both of which act with impunity in > Chattisgarh. In this instance, the FACT exhibition is indulging in a > serious case of disinformation. It could be argued that it is doing > so at the behest of the primary authors of this violence, that is, > the security forces and those who have floated outfits such as the > 'Salwa Judum'. > > In the FACT exhibition text, the Salwa Judum is introduced as 'Hope > Floats'. It is by now well documented that the Salwa Judum is in fact > one of the deadliest and most lethal armed outfits operating in > India, which coerces tribals who are forced into detention camps to > join it as footsoldiers, which uses child soldiers and uses rape, > torture and arson. It has become an instrument of state terror, and > is supported by the corporate interests which have a stake in the > mining operations in the area to clear tribals off the land that the > mining companies lust after. > > Even the South Asia Terrorism Portal (which the FACT exhibition > relies on extensively, otherwise) has this to say about the Salwa Judum > > "However, local reports from the areas witnessing the campaign have > been disturbing, with analysts questioning the policy of state > support to a vigilante movement that exposes large numbers of > civilians to unacceptable risk. According to a former Director > General of Police, Dr. K S Subramanian, "While official sources > maintain that the campaign, led by a local legislator, is hugely > successful with the tribal people joining it in large numbers, local > enquiries revealed a different picture. In the name of Salwa Judum, > the tribal people are being forced to join a far from spontaneous > mobilisation… Hundreds have been killed on both sides. A large area > of land remains uncultivated; tribal people who are meant to work on > the land have deserted the villages and are living under open skies > and are starving. A vast amount of corruption has crept in as a > result of this misconceived campaign with the ruling party spending > huge amounts on it." > > http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/sair/archives/4_33.htm > > For a more detailed investigation of the Salwa Judum's 'spontaneous' > activities, please see - the PUCL (Peoples Union for Civil > Liberties) report on the Salwa Judum at > > http://www.pucl.org/Topics/Human-rights/2006/slawajudum.htm > > There are other howlers in the exhibition, such as the fact that. the > Ranvir Sena is mentioned as a Naxalite organization. Now, the Ranvir > Sena, as is very well known, is a militia of upper caste landowners > in Bihar and parts of Jharkhand that has actually been at war (like > the Salwa Judum) with the Naxals for several decades now. Calling the > Ranvir Sena a 'Naxalite' organization is a bit like calling Panun > Kashmir, or Roots in Kashmir a front organization of the JKLF or the > Hizbul Mujahideen in Kashmir. > > Finally, a word about FACT, the outfit that has organized this > exhibition. The moving force behind FACT is the rather flamboyant > French expatriate journalist based in Delhi, Francois Gautier, whose > sympathies for hard line Hindu Fundamentalism has never been a secret. > > He founded FACT with money he got from the'Nachiketa' Journalism > prize awarded to him by the then Prime Minister of India Mr Atal > Bihari Vajpayee on behalf of the Government of India. The Nachiketa > prize has been instituted by the Panchajanya group of publications, > which just happens to be the inhouse publishing arm of the Rashtriya > Svayamsevak Sangh (RSS) > > Gautier's services as the South Asia Correspondent of the French > newspaper, Le Figaro were terminated in 2000 on the grounds of his > obviously biased (and often factually compromised) reportage. He has > since then, spent time acting as the chief public relations point man > for Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, and getting even closer to sections of the > political far right in India. > > Apologies for this lengthy response, but I think it is necessary to > have a few facts straight about FACT. Our patriots, while they have a > great deal of enthusiasm, are not generally well known for precision, > and the boring matter of attempting to maintain a consistency with, > em, the facts. > > regards, > > Shuddha > > > > > On 12-Jul-08, at 11:09 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> Hi Pankhuree, >> >> You can check the online exhibition here: >> >> Here it is. >> >> http://www.scribd.com/doc/2469417/Naxal-Low-Res- >> >> http://www.scribd.com/doc/3907033/5-new-panels >> For More details Mr. Veeru might be contacted here - Mob: +91 93912 >> 45303 >> +91 98719 49094 >> >> Thanks indeed, >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> Campaign Blog - www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com >> >> >> On 7/12/08, pankhuree dube wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi Mr. Kaul, >>> Thank you for forwarding a description of this exhibit. It sounds >>> fascinating. Do you know if there are any plans to make it >>> available online >>> so that individuals who are not able to view it in India can have >>> a chance >>> to read further about it? >>> I would very much like to be able to see it firsthand, but even a >>> brief >>> description of the findings and perhaps a list of resources for >>> further >>> reading would be of great interest to me.Many thanks, >>> Pankhuree >>>> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 22:31:40 +0530> From: >>>> kauladityaraj at gmail.com> >>> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FACT >>> Exhibition at >>> IHC> > *FACT INDIA: Exhibition on Naxalism opens in India Habitat >>> Centre*> > >>> *The Naxalism: A threat to Unified nation of India* The Exhibition >>> is a> >>> reflection of the Maoist insurgency in India, a blend of photographs> >>> statistics and ofcourse an analysis and a presentation of FACTS. The> >>> exhibition will be open for visitors at the INDIA HAbitat centre from >>> *8-14th> july 2008*. The exhibition has already travelled to Oslo >>> and was >>> screened on> the sidelines of "The Conference on Peace and >>> Reconciliation in >>> South Asia -> Challenges and Opportunities."> > *The Exhibition* >>> travels >>> through the lives of the victims in the Naxal> infested states and >>> present >>> their lives as well as the lives of those> vallant fighters both >>> civilian >>> and from the government. Its the Fight> against terrorism the idea of >>> killing because one doesnt believe or just> disagree with the others, >>> Intolerence and disharmony.> > > > Timings: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 >>> - Monday, >>> July 14, 2008> > Venue: India Habitat Center, < >>> http://upcoming.yahoo.com/venue/131044/>Lodhi> Road, New Delhi> > > > >>> Contact number:- Mr Veer 099871949094> > > -- > Thanks & regards> >>> Rinku >>> thusoo> Delhi> > http://kashmir-in-exile.blogspot.com> >>> http://jokingbudha.blogspot.com> __._,_.___ Messages in this topic> < >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/message/ >>> 4045;_ylc=X3oDMTM1OWhsbmZtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycHN >>> wSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARtc2dJZAM0MDQ1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTIx >>> NTc4NDk2OAR0cGNJZAM0MDQ1>> >>> (1) Reply (via web post)> < >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>> post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMXNpMHRhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycHN >>> wSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARtc2dJZAM0MDQ1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTIx >>> NTc4NDk2OA--?act=reply&messageNum=4045>|> >>> Start a new topic> < >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>> post;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZGlxM3ZsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycHN >>> wSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Njg->> >>> Messages< >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>> messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNTJ0cm5tBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGd >>> ycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNtc2dzBHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Njg- >>> >|> >>> Files< >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>> files;_ylc=X3oDMTJnNjA5ZjdhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycH >>> NwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNmaWxlcwRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4>|> >>> Photos< >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>> photos;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNnJjdjluBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdyc >>> HNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNwaG90BHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Njg- >>> >|> >>> Links< >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>> links;_ylc=X3oDMTJnN3NvN3NpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycH >>> NwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNsaW5rcwRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4>|> >>> Database< >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>> database;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMWU1OXNuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGd >>> ycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNkYgRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4>|> >>> Polls< >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>> polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJnYmw3dnYzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycH >>> NwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNwb2xscwRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4>|> >>> Members< >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>> members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbzYyNXQ1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdy >>> cHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Njg-> >>> |> >>> Calendar< >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>> calendar;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZjZjaWNwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGd >>> ycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNjYWwEc3RpbWUDMTIxNTc4NDk2OA-- >>> >> >>> MARKETPLACE> ------------------------------> Special offer for Yahoo! >>> Groups> < >>> http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13r4sn4qb/ >>> M=624381.12730922.13032918.10835568/D=groups/S=1708343758:MKP1/ >>> Y=YAHOO/EXP=1215792168/L=/B=8d5RAELaX9w-/J=1215784968592283/ >>> A=5396680/R=0/SIG=14e7adlkt/*http://media.adrevolver.com/ >>> adrevolver/href?banner=197791&place=26143&url_=http:// >>> tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/display.com?cid=bbi00027>from> >>> Blockbuster! 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Groups> > and category >>> pages.< >>> http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13ob78g66/ >>> M=493064.12016306.12445698.8674578/D=groups/S=1708343758:NC/ >>> Y=YAHOO/EXP=1215792168/L=/B=895RAELaX9w-/J=1215784968592283/ >>> A=4763760/R=0/SIG=11ou7otip/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/ >>> bestofyahoogroups/>> >>>> There is something> > for everyone.> Yahoo! Groups> > Real Food >>>> Group< >>> http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13o1vgd34/ >>> M=493064.12016243.13036160.8674578/D=groups/S=1708343758:NC/ >>> Y=YAHOO/EXP=1215792168/L=/B=9N5RAELaX9w-/J=1215784968592283/ >>> A=5379228/R=0/SIG=11gatb1qb/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/ >>> hellmanns/>> >>>> Share recipes> > and favorite meals.> .> > __,_._,___> >>> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open >>> discussion >>> list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To >>> subscribe: send >>> an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the >>> subject >>> header.> To unsubscribe: >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < >>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Making the world a better place one message at a time. >>> http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Jul 12 19:24:12 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 19:24:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FACT Exhibition at IHC In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807120601j36fe8c5ax3833113dac85e0ec@mail.gmail.com> References: <4057fac40807110702p2f2b44fbxb9ce8a9ff1926ac9@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807111001u7fe28e50g12939b4f4235f1ca@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807112239j380c34bfq8bcd7b3689aed134@mail.gmail.com> <035EDB06-2832-4B9B-A1E4-32CDF430C10E@sarai.net> <9c06aab30807120601j36fe8c5ax3833113dac85e0ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5BA2C1F8-1CFF-4C90-8F4B-EB5C30BD0F55@sarai.net> Dear Shivam, I agree with you substantially on this matter. As for those who hose who (in your words) > represent the Indian state but are not security personnel. > (includes all those who are involved in mainstream, electoral > politics) Yes, they too must be counted amongst the civilian casualties, and I have absolutely no doubt at all about the fact that those called 'Naxals' use intimidation and terror against them. Several of these people (who have interests in the Indian state in electoral terms but are not security personnel) however, are not simply unarmed political workers. Some are, many are not. Included amongst them are especially the party workers of the Rashtriya Janata Dal, the Janata Dal (United), the Jharkhand Mukti Morcha (all factions) the Communist Party of India, the Communist Party of india (Marxist), the Congress, the Bharatiya Janata Party and the Samajwadi Party. All these people are also quite well armed. They too use terror and intimidation as an everyday feature of their political methods (whenever necessary), just as the so called 'Naxals' do. I have often wondered how we might characterize this population. Your response gives me a pointer, perhaps they could be called the 'informal insecurity personnel of the Indian state' I am not for a moment suggesting that anyone is innocent here, and I certainly hold no brief for the retrograde left-nationalist variety of politics that calls itself 'Maoism'. However, I can see why, if the interests of the indigenous tribal poor of these areas are threatened by the state, which, in cahoots with large corporate mining interests, seeks to disposess people of their land, why they would not be utterly indifferent to the brand of politics that Maoism represents. Given a choice between a body of highly armed men who want to throw you out of your land, and disrupt your way of life, and another body of armed men, who fight the first body of armed men, forming a temporary, non-ideological and pragmatic alliance with the second body of armed men is not an irrational choice. The largest body of victims however, would in all probability be - simply - ordinary human beings who do not necessarily hold or advertize their political and quasi-criminal affiliations in this protracted gang war. I think these nuances, however, are lost on the easy categorizations presented to us by FACT and other such entities. I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. regards Shuddha On 12-Jul-08, at 6:31 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > Dear Shuddha, > > One is as usual grateful to you for illuminating what was deliberately > hidden. Naxalism is the sort of far Left political mobilisation that > evokes interesting responses from left, left-liberals, > liberals-but-not-leftists, Marxists, post-Marxists - and similar > gradients of the right. So it is indeed important to know where an > anti-Naxal response is coming from, and so one is grateful for your > frisking in this case. > > Just one thing: the civilian casualties you point to, no doubt include > innocents killed by security forces, but they also include those who > represent the Indian state but are not security personnel. This > includes all those who are involved in mainstream, electoral politics > and who are killed for just that. > > (To digress, this reminds of an important point made by Prashant Jha > in this travel essay on Naxalism - > http://www.himalmag.com/2007/december/ > cover_feature_india_naxatile.html > - one that few make: Naxalism thrives where democratic politics was > already weak, of left or right, and once Naxalism begins to take root, > it prevents democratic politics from spreading.) > > In the case of Chhattisgarh, no doubt the civilian casualties are > largely coming from Salwa Judum atrocities, but perhaps equally from > Naxalites killing those who join Salwa Judum, or seek to, or refuse to > join either. While Chattisgarh's average stats have an over-bearing of > the Salwa Judum-caused figures, I think it is important to remember > while talking of Naxalism that Salwa Judum is present only in one of > the 160 (or whatever the claim is by whoever) districts that are > "Naxalite affected". This is not to downplay the mayhem that a > state-run militia is causing in the Dantewada district of the Basatar > plateau, but Dantewada is not India. > > best > shivam > > On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: >> Dear Aditya, dear Pankhuree, dear all, >> >> Thank you, Aditya, for forwarding information about the FACT >> (Foundation Against Continuing Terrorism) sponsored exhibition >> titled: 'Naxalism: A Threat to the Unified Nation of India' >> >> While I am no sympathizer of Maoism, or those who are either called >> 'Maoists' or 'Naxalites' in India, I do have a few bones to pick with >> the contents of the exhibition at the India Habitat Centre that you >> have recommended to us. >> >> While looking at what pretends to be information of this nature it is >> always useful to do a little thinking about numbers. The statistics >> of casualties in the FACT exhibition are taken from the monthly >> statistics and reports published in the South Asia Intelligence >> Review by the South Asia Terrorism Portal, a think tank headed by the >> notorious former Punjab police chief who masterminded disappearances >> and the utilization of 'renegade' militants as an instrument of >> policy in Punjab and the North East, architect of the Indian hockey >> team's disasters and well known pincher of women's bottoms, Mr. KPS >> GIll. I am a regular recipient of the SAIR and I happen to follow the >> figures that are mentioned in its reports quite diligently. >> >> I have no quarrel with the reports, as such, as I have no way of >> assessing their accuracy, or inaccuracy. However, I do have a quarrel >> with the way in which this information is presented in the FACT >> exhibition. In each instance, there is a heading called 'civilian >> casualties' . Let us take the Table that says 'Naxal Violence in >> Chattisgarh' and analyse the information given for the year 2007 >> >> " Security Forces Casualties 181 >> Civilian Casualties 166 >> Naxalites Killed 66 " >> >> What I find interesting is the figure for 'Civilian Casualties'. >> Given in this way, it appears as if the 'Civilians' killed are due to >> 'Naxal' violence. The sources of these figures, the SAIR bulletins, >> simply title their tables as "Weekly Fatalities: Major Conflicts in >> South Asia" , which in my opinion, is a far more precise way of >> talking about the casualty figures, because it does not actually >> attribute specific authorship to the violence. This is significant, >> because the 'civilans' while they may be targetted on occasion by the >> Maoists, are also, generally, in a far larger measure, targetted by >> the security forces, and the 'Anti-Maoist' militia called the Salwa >> Judum. So, when we see 'civilian casualties' we are looking at a >> number of people who may have been killed, by 'Naxals', by security >> forces, by militia like the 'Salwa Judum'. Since, 'Naxals' depend on >> their survival on the sympathies (and to a certain extent, fear) of >> the tribal poor, it is extremely unrealistic to deduce that they >> would in fact be the primary authors of the violence that is >> described as 'civilian casualties'. Numerous investigations report >> that the actual primary authors of this violence are the security >> forces, and the Salwa Judum, both of which act with impunity in >> Chattisgarh. In this instance, the FACT exhibition is indulging in a >> serious case of disinformation. It could be argued that it is doing >> so at the behest of the primary authors of this violence, that is, >> the security forces and those who have floated outfits such as the >> 'Salwa Judum'. >> >> In the FACT exhibition text, the Salwa Judum is introduced as 'Hope >> Floats'. It is by now well documented that the Salwa Judum is in fact >> one of the deadliest and most lethal armed outfits operating in >> India, which coerces tribals who are forced into detention camps to >> join it as footsoldiers, which uses child soldiers and uses rape, >> torture and arson. It has become an instrument of state terror, and >> is supported by the corporate interests which have a stake in the >> mining operations in the area to clear tribals off the land that the >> mining companies lust after. >> >> Even the South Asia Terrorism Portal (which the FACT exhibition >> relies on extensively, otherwise) has this to say about the Salwa >> Judum >> >> "However, local reports from the areas witnessing the campaign have >> been disturbing, with analysts questioning the policy of state >> support to a vigilante movement that exposes large numbers of >> civilians to unacceptable risk. According to a former Director >> General of Police, Dr. K S Subramanian, "While official sources >> maintain that the campaign, led by a local legislator, is hugely >> successful with the tribal people joining it in large numbers, local >> enquiries revealed a different picture. In the name of Salwa Judum, >> the tribal people are being forced to join a far from spontaneous >> mobilisation… Hundreds have been killed on both sides. A large area >> of land remains uncultivated; tribal people who are meant to work on >> the land have deserted the villages and are living under open skies >> and are starving. A vast amount of corruption has crept in as a >> result of this misconceived campaign with the ruling party spending >> huge amounts on it." >> >> http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/sair/archives/4_33.htm >> >> For a more detailed investigation of the Salwa Judum's 'spontaneous' >> activities, please see - the PUCL (Peoples Union for Civil >> Liberties) report on the Salwa Judum at >> >> http://www.pucl.org/Topics/Human-rights/2006/slawajudum.htm >> >> There are other howlers in the exhibition, such as the fact that. the >> Ranvir Sena is mentioned as a Naxalite organization. Now, the Ranvir >> Sena, as is very well known, is a militia of upper caste landowners >> in Bihar and parts of Jharkhand that has actually been at war (like >> the Salwa Judum) with the Naxals for several decades now. Calling the >> Ranvir Sena a 'Naxalite' organization is a bit like calling Panun >> Kashmir, or Roots in Kashmir a front organization of the JKLF or the >> Hizbul Mujahideen in Kashmir. >> >> Finally, a word about FACT, the outfit that has organized this >> exhibition. The moving force behind FACT is the rather flamboyant >> French expatriate journalist based in Delhi, Francois Gautier, whose >> sympathies for hard line Hindu Fundamentalism has never been a >> secret. >> >> He founded FACT with money he got from the'Nachiketa' Journalism >> prize awarded to him by the then Prime Minister of India Mr Atal >> Bihari Vajpayee on behalf of the Government of India. The Nachiketa >> prize has been instituted by the Panchajanya group of publications, >> which just happens to be the inhouse publishing arm of the Rashtriya >> Svayamsevak Sangh (RSS) >> >> Gautier's services as the South Asia Correspondent of the French >> newspaper, Le Figaro were terminated in 2000 on the grounds of his >> obviously biased (and often factually compromised) reportage. He has >> since then, spent time acting as the chief public relations point man >> for Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, and getting even closer to sections of the >> political far right in India. >> >> Apologies for this lengthy response, but I think it is necessary to >> have a few facts straight about FACT. Our patriots, while they have a >> great deal of enthusiasm, are not generally well known for precision, >> and the boring matter of attempting to maintain a consistency with, >> em, the facts. >> >> regards, >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> On 12-Jul-08, at 11:09 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> >>> Hi Pankhuree, >>> >>> You can check the online exhibition here: >>> >>> Here it is. >>> >>> http://www.scribd.com/doc/2469417/Naxal-Low-Res- >>> >>> http://www.scribd.com/doc/3907033/5-new-panels >>> For More details Mr. Veeru might be contacted here - Mob: +91 93912 >>> 45303 >>> +91 98719 49094 >>> >>> Thanks indeed, >>> Aditya Raj Kaul >>> Campaign Blog - www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com >>> >>> >>> On 7/12/08, pankhuree dube wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Mr. Kaul, >>>> Thank you for forwarding a description of this exhibit. It sounds >>>> fascinating. Do you know if there are any plans to make it >>>> available online >>>> so that individuals who are not able to view it in India can have >>>> a chance >>>> to read further about it? >>>> I would very much like to be able to see it firsthand, but even a >>>> brief >>>> description of the findings and perhaps a list of resources for >>>> further >>>> reading would be of great interest to me.Many thanks, >>>> Pankhuree >>>>> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 22:31:40 +0530> From: >>>>> kauladityaraj at gmail.com> >>>> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FACT >>>> Exhibition at >>>> IHC> > *FACT INDIA: Exhibition on Naxalism opens in India Habitat >>>> Centre*> > >>>> *The Naxalism: A threat to Unified nation of India* The Exhibition >>>> is a> >>>> reflection of the Maoist insurgency in India, a blend of >>>> photographs> >>>> statistics and ofcourse an analysis and a presentation of FACTS. >>>> The> >>>> exhibition will be open for visitors at the INDIA HAbitat centre >>>> from >>>> *8-14th> july 2008*. The exhibition has already travelled to Oslo >>>> and was >>>> screened on> the sidelines of "The Conference on Peace and >>>> Reconciliation in >>>> South Asia -> Challenges and Opportunities."> > *The Exhibition* >>>> travels >>>> through the lives of the victims in the Naxal> infested states and >>>> present >>>> their lives as well as the lives of those> vallant fighters both >>>> civilian >>>> and from the government. Its the Fight> against terrorism the >>>> idea of >>>> killing because one doesnt believe or just> disagree with the >>>> others, >>>> Intolerence and disharmony.> > > > Timings: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 >>>> - Monday, >>>> July 14, 2008> > Venue: India Habitat Center, < >>>> http://upcoming.yahoo.com/venue/131044/>Lodhi> Road, New Delhi> >>>> > > > >>>> Contact number:- Mr Veer 099871949094> > > -- > Thanks & regards> >>>> Rinku >>>> thusoo> Delhi> > http://kashmir-in-exile.blogspot.com> >>>> http://jokingbudha.blogspot.com> __._,_.___ Messages in this >>>> topic> < >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/message/ >>>> 4045;_ylc=X3oDMTM1OWhsbmZtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdyc >>>> HN >>>> wSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARtc2dJZAM0MDQ1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMT >>>> Ix >>>> NTc4NDk2OAR0cGNJZAM0MDQ1>> >>>> (1) Reply (via web post)> < >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>>> post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMXNpMHRhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdyc >>>> HN >>>> wSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARtc2dJZAM0MDQ1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMT >>>> Ix >>>> NTc4NDk2OA--?act=reply&messageNum=4045>|> >>>> Start a new topic> < >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>>> post;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZGlxM3ZsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdyc >>>> HN >>>> wSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Njg->> >>>> Messages< >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>>> messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNTJ0cm5tBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3B >>>> Gd >>>> ycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNtc2dzBHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Nj >>>> g- >>>>> |> >>>> Files< >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>>> files;_ylc=X3oDMTJnNjA5ZjdhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdy >>>> cH >>>> NwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNmaWxlcwRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4> >>>> |> >>>> Photos< >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>>> photos;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNnJjdjluBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGd >>>> yc >>>> HNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNwaG90BHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Njg- >>>>> |> >>>> Links< >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>>> links;_ylc=X3oDMTJnN3NvN3NpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdy >>>> cH >>>> NwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNsaW5rcwRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4> >>>> |> >>>> Database< >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>>> database;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMWU1OXNuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3B >>>> Gd >>>> ycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNkYgRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4>| >>>> > >>>> Polls< >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>>> polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJnYmw3dnYzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdy >>>> cH >>>> NwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNwb2xscwRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4> >>>> |> >>>> Members< >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>>> members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbzYyNXQ1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BG >>>> dy >>>> cHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Njg >>>> -> >>>> |> >>>> Calendar< >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>>> calendar;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZjZjaWNwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3B >>>> Gd >>>> ycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNjYWwEc3RpbWUDMTIxNTc4NDk2OA >>>> -- >>>>>> >>>> MARKETPLACE> ------------------------------> Special offer for >>>> Yahoo! >>>> Groups> < >>>> http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13r4sn4qb/ >>>> M=624381.12730922.13032918.10835568/D=groups/S=1708343758:MKP1/ >>>> Y=YAHOO/EXP=1215792168/L=/B=8d5RAELaX9w-/J=1215784968592283/ >>>> A=5396680/R=0/SIG=14e7adlkt/*http://media.adrevolver.com/ >>>> adrevolver/href?banner=197791&place=26143&url_=http:// >>>> tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/display.com?cid=bbi00027>from> >>>> Blockbuster! 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Groups> > and >>>>> category >>>> pages.< >>>> http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13ob78g66/ >>>> M=493064.12016306.12445698.8674578/D=groups/S=1708343758:NC/ >>>> Y=YAHOO/EXP=1215792168/L=/B=895RAELaX9w-/J=1215784968592283/ >>>> A=4763760/R=0/SIG=11ou7otip/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/ >>>> bestofyahoogroups/>> >>>>> There is something> > for everyone.> Yahoo! Groups> > Real Food >>>>> Group< >>>> http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13o1vgd34/ >>>> M=493064.12016243.13036160.8674578/D=groups/S=1708343758:NC/ >>>> Y=YAHOO/EXP=1215792168/L=/B=9N5RAELaX9w-/J=1215784968592283/ >>>> A=5379228/R=0/SIG=11gatb1qb/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/ >>>> hellmanns/>> >>>>> Share recipes> > and favorite meals.> .> > __,_._,___> >>>> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open >>>> discussion >>>> list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To >>>> subscribe: send >>>> an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the >>>> subject >>>> header.> To unsubscribe: >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List >>>> archive: < >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> Making the world a better place one message at a time. >>>> http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From mail at shivamvij.com Sat Jul 12 19:39:36 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 19:39:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FACT Exhibition at IHC In-Reply-To: <5BA2C1F8-1CFF-4C90-8F4B-EB5C30BD0F55@sarai.net> References: <4057fac40807110702p2f2b44fbxb9ce8a9ff1926ac9@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807111001u7fe28e50g12939b4f4235f1ca@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807112239j380c34bfq8bcd7b3689aed134@mail.gmail.com> <035EDB06-2832-4B9B-A1E4-32CDF430C10E@sarai.net> <9c06aab30807120601j36fe8c5ax3833113dac85e0ec@mail.gmail.com> <5BA2C1F8-1CFF-4C90-8F4B-EB5C30BD0F55@sarai.net> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807120709k603b5bb5p167f074a159fad6f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha, I completely agree with you that an ordinary tribal would be wont to choose the Naxalite over the corporate-criminal called the Indian politician. On 'informal security personnel', I am less sure if all the victims can be characterised thus. This is true of Bihar and Jharkhand - indeed, there has been more than enough evidence that the Ranvir Sena was promoted and supported by mainstream political parties. But this is not an open and shut case, it leaves us with questions, perhaps banal ones. The political activist who uses violence in response to Naxalism, the political activist whose violence begets support for Naxalism... did the chicken come first or the egg? Then again, I have heard of these political parties appeasing Naxalites, particularly in Jharkhand, for support in elections. And then there might be those who have been appointed administrators by the Indian state, the collector or the patwari, who are also similarly targeted by Naxalites just because they represent the Indian state. As representatives of the Indian state, they do carry out the agenda of looting the mineral-rich regions, displacing the tribals to nowhere... I wonder where the buck began and where it stops, I wonder if I can sympathise, politically speaking, with the Naxalite project even one bit because a displaced tribal has joined the naxalite dalam... best shivam On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 7:24 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Shivam, > > > I agree with you substantially on this matter. > > > As for those who hose who (in your words) > > represent the Indian state but are not security personnel. (includes all > those who are involved in mainstream, electoral politics) > > > Yes, they too must be counted amongst the civilian casualties, and I have > absolutely no doubt at all about the fact that those called 'Naxals' use > intimidation and terror against them. Several of these people (who have > interests in the Indian state in electoral terms but are not security > personnel) however, are not simply unarmed political workers. Some are, many > are not. Included amongst them are especially the party workers of the > Rashtriya Janata Dal, the Janata Dal (United), the Jharkhand Mukti Morcha > (all factions) the Communist Party of India, the Communist Party of india > (Marxist), the Congress, the Bharatiya Janata Party and the Samajwadi Party. > All these people are also quite well armed. They too use terror and > intimidation as an everyday feature of their political methods (whenever > necessary), just as the so called 'Naxals' do. I have often wondered how we > might characterize this population. Your response gives me a pointer, > perhaps they could be called the 'informal insecurity personnel of the > Indian state' > > > I am not for a moment suggesting that anyone is innocent here, and I > certainly hold no brief for the retrograde left-nationalist variety of > politics that calls itself 'Maoism'. However, I can see why, if the > interests of the indigenous tribal poor of these areas are threatened by the > state, which, in cahoots with large corporate mining interests, seeks to > disposess people of their land, why they would not be utterly indifferent to > the brand of politics that Maoism represents. Given a choice between a body > of highly armed men who want to throw you out of your land, and disrupt your > way of life, and another body of armed men, who fight the first body of > armed men, forming a temporary, non-ideological and pragmatic alliance with > the second body of armed men is not an irrational choice. > > > The largest body of victims however, would in all probability be - simply - > ordinary human beings who do not necessarily hold or advertize their > political and quasi-criminal affiliations in this protracted gang war. I > think these nuances, however, are lost on the easy categorizations presented > to us by FACT and other such entities. > > > I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. > > > regards > > > Shuddha > > > > > On 12-Jul-08, at 6:31 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Dear Shuddha, > > > One is as usual grateful to you for illuminating what was deliberately > > hidden. Naxalism is the sort of far Left political mobilisation that > > evokes interesting responses from left, left-liberals, > > liberals-but-not-leftists, Marxists, post-Marxists - and similar > > gradients of the right. So it is indeed important to know where an > > anti-Naxal response is coming from, and so one is grateful for your > > frisking in this case. > > > Just one thing: the civilian casualties you point to, no doubt include > > innocents killed by security forces, but they also include those who > > represent the Indian state but are not security personnel. This > > includes all those who are involved in mainstream, electoral politics > > and who are killed for just that. > > > (To digress, this reminds of an important point made by Prashant Jha > > in this travel essay on Naxalism - > > http://www.himalmag.com/2007/december/cover_feature_india_naxatile.html > > - one that few make: Naxalism thrives where democratic politics was > > already weak, of left or right, and once Naxalism begins to take root, > > it prevents democratic politics from spreading.) > > > In the case of Chhattisgarh, no doubt the civilian casualties are > > largely coming from Salwa Judum atrocities, but perhaps equally from > > Naxalites killing those who join Salwa Judum, or seek to, or refuse to > > join either. While Chattisgarh's average stats have an over-bearing of > > the Salwa Judum-caused figures, I think it is important to remember > > while talking of Naxalism that Salwa Judum is present only in one of > > the 160 (or whatever the claim is by whoever) districts that are > > "Naxalite affected". This is not to downplay the mayhem that a > > state-run militia is causing in the Dantewada district of the Basatar > > plateau, but Dantewada is not India. > > > best > > shivam > > > On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > wrote: > > Dear Aditya, dear Pankhuree, dear all, > > > Thank you, Aditya, for forwarding information about the FACT > > (Foundation Against Continuing Terrorism) sponsored exhibition > > titled: 'Naxalism: A Threat to the Unified Nation of India' > > > While I am no sympathizer of Maoism, or those who are either called > > 'Maoists' or 'Naxalites' in India, I do have a few bones to pick with > > the contents of the exhibition at the India Habitat Centre that you > > have recommended to us. > > > While looking at what pretends to be information of this nature it is > > always useful to do a little thinking about numbers. The statistics > > of casualties in the FACT exhibition are taken from the monthly > > statistics and reports published in the South Asia Intelligence > > Review by the South Asia Terrorism Portal, a think tank headed by the > > notorious former Punjab police chief who masterminded disappearances > > and the utilization of 'renegade' militants as an instrument of > > policy in Punjab and the North East, architect of the Indian hockey > > team's disasters and well known pincher of women's bottoms, Mr. KPS > > GIll. I am a regular recipient of the SAIR and I happen to follow the > > figures that are mentioned in its reports quite diligently. > > > I have no quarrel with the reports, as such, as I have no way of > > assessing their accuracy, or inaccuracy. However, I do have a quarrel > > with the way in which this information is presented in the FACT > > exhibition. In each instance, there is a heading called 'civilian > > casualties' . Let us take the Table that says 'Naxal Violence in > > Chattisgarh' and analyse the information given for the year 2007 > > > " Security Forces Casualties 181 > > Civilian Casualties 166 > > Naxalites Killed 66 " > > > What I find interesting is the figure for 'Civilian Casualties'. > > Given in this way, it appears as if the 'Civilians' killed are due to > > 'Naxal' violence. The sources of these figures, the SAIR bulletins, > > simply title their tables as "Weekly Fatalities: Major Conflicts in > > South Asia" , which in my opinion, is a far more precise way of > > talking about the casualty figures, because it does not actually > > attribute specific authorship to the violence. This is significant, > > because the 'civilans' while they may be targetted on occasion by the > > Maoists, are also, generally, in a far larger measure, targetted by > > the security forces, and the 'Anti-Maoist' militia called the Salwa > > Judum. So, when we see 'civilian casualties' we are looking at a > > number of people who may have been killed, by 'Naxals', by security > > forces, by militia like the 'Salwa Judum'. Since, 'Naxals' depend on > > their survival on the sympathies (and to a certain extent, fear) of > > the tribal poor, it is extremely unrealistic to deduce that they > > would in fact be the primary authors of the violence that is > > described as 'civilian casualties'. Numerous investigations report > > that the actual primary authors of this violence are the security > > forces, and the Salwa Judum, both of which act with impunity in > > Chattisgarh. In this instance, the FACT exhibition is indulging in a > > serious case of disinformation. It could be argued that it is doing > > so at the behest of the primary authors of this violence, that is, > > the security forces and those who have floated outfits such as the > > 'Salwa Judum'. > > > In the FACT exhibition text, the Salwa Judum is introduced as 'Hope > > Floats'. It is by now well documented that the Salwa Judum is in fact > > one of the deadliest and most lethal armed outfits operating in > > India, which coerces tribals who are forced into detention camps to > > join it as footsoldiers, which uses child soldiers and uses rape, > > torture and arson. It has become an instrument of state terror, and > > is supported by the corporate interests which have a stake in the > > mining operations in the area to clear tribals off the land that the > > mining companies lust after. > > > Even the South Asia Terrorism Portal (which the FACT exhibition > > relies on extensively, otherwise) has this to say about the Salwa Judum > > > "However, local reports from the areas witnessing the campaign have > > been disturbing, with analysts questioning the policy of state > > support to a vigilante movement that exposes large numbers of > > civilians to unacceptable risk. According to a former Director > > General of Police, Dr. K S Subramanian, "While official sources > > maintain that the campaign, led by a local legislator, is hugely > > successful with the tribal people joining it in large numbers, local > > enquiries revealed a different picture. In the name of Salwa Judum, > > the tribal people are being forced to join a far from spontaneous > > mobilisation… Hundreds have been killed on both sides. A large area > > of land remains uncultivated; tribal people who are meant to work on > > the land have deserted the villages and are living under open skies > > and are starving. A vast amount of corruption has crept in as a > > result of this misconceived campaign with the ruling party spending > > huge amounts on it." > > > http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/sair/archives/4_33.htm > > > For a more detailed investigation of the Salwa Judum's 'spontaneous' > > activities, please see - the PUCL (Peoples Union for Civil > > Liberties) report on the Salwa Judum at > > > http://www.pucl.org/Topics/Human-rights/2006/slawajudum.htm > > > There are other howlers in the exhibition, such as the fact that. the > > Ranvir Sena is mentioned as a Naxalite organization. Now, the Ranvir > > Sena, as is very well known, is a militia of upper caste landowners > > in Bihar and parts of Jharkhand that has actually been at war (like > > the Salwa Judum) with the Naxals for several decades now. Calling the > > Ranvir Sena a 'Naxalite' organization is a bit like calling Panun > > Kashmir, or Roots in Kashmir a front organization of the JKLF or the > > Hizbul Mujahideen in Kashmir. > > > Finally, a word about FACT, the outfit that has organized this > > exhibition. The moving force behind FACT is the rather flamboyant > > French expatriate journalist based in Delhi, Francois Gautier, whose > > sympathies for hard line Hindu Fundamentalism has never been a secret. > > > He founded FACT with money he got from the'Nachiketa' Journalism > > prize awarded to him by the then Prime Minister of India Mr Atal > > Bihari Vajpayee on behalf of the Government of India. The Nachiketa > > prize has been instituted by the Panchajanya group of publications, > > which just happens to be the inhouse publishing arm of the Rashtriya > > Svayamsevak Sangh (RSS) > > > Gautier's services as the South Asia Correspondent of the French > > newspaper, Le Figaro were terminated in 2000 on the grounds of his > > obviously biased (and often factually compromised) reportage. He has > > since then, spent time acting as the chief public relations point man > > for Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, and getting even closer to sections of the > > political far right in India. > > > Apologies for this lengthy response, but I think it is necessary to > > have a few facts straight about FACT. Our patriots, while they have a > > great deal of enthusiasm, are not generally well known for precision, > > and the boring matter of attempting to maintain a consistency with, > > em, the facts. > > > regards, > > > Shuddha > > > > > > On 12-Jul-08, at 11:09 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > Hi Pankhuree, > > > You can check the online exhibition here: > > > Here it is. > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/2469417/Naxal-Low-Res- > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/3907033/5-new-panels > > For More details Mr. Veeru might be contacted here - Mob: +91 93912 > > 45303 > > +91 98719 49094 > > > Thanks indeed, > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Campaign Blog - www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > > > On 7/12/08, pankhuree dube wrote: > > > > Hi Mr. Kaul, > > Thank you for forwarding a description of this exhibit. It sounds > > fascinating. Do you know if there are any plans to make it > > available online > > so that individuals who are not able to view it in India can have > > a chance > > to read further about it? > > I would very much like to be able to see it firsthand, but even a > > brief > > description of the findings and perhaps a list of resources for > > further > > reading would be of great interest to me.Many thanks, > > Pankhuree > > Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 22:31:40 +0530> From: > > kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > > To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FACT > > Exhibition at > > IHC> > *FACT INDIA: Exhibition on Naxalism opens in India Habitat > > Centre*> > > > *The Naxalism: A threat to Unified nation of India* The Exhibition > > is a> > > reflection of the Maoist insurgency in India, a blend of photographs> > > statistics and ofcourse an analysis and a presentation of FACTS. The> > > exhibition will be open for visitors at the INDIA HAbitat centre from > > *8-14th> july 2008*. The exhibition has already travelled to Oslo > > and was > > screened on> the sidelines of "The Conference on Peace and > > Reconciliation in > > South Asia -> Challenges and Opportunities."> > *The Exhibition* > > travels > > through the lives of the victims in the Naxal> infested states and > > present > > their lives as well as the lives of those> vallant fighters both > > civilian > > and from the government. Its the Fight> against terrorism the idea of > > killing because one doesnt believe or just> disagree with the others, > > Intolerence and disharmony.> > > > Timings: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 > > - Monday, > > July 14, 2008> > Venue: India Habitat Center, < > > http://upcoming.yahoo.com/venue/131044/>Lodhi> Road, New Delhi> > > > > > Contact number:- Mr Veer 099871949094> > > -- > Thanks & regards> > > Rinku > > thusoo> Delhi> > http://kashmir-in-exile.blogspot.com> > > http://jokingbudha.blogspot.com> __._,_.___ Messages in this topic> < > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/message/ > > 4045;_ylc=X3oDMTM1OWhsbmZtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycHN > > wSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARtc2dJZAM0MDQ1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTIx > > NTc4NDk2OAR0cGNJZAM0MDQ1>> > > (1) Reply (via web post)> < > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ > > post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMXNpMHRhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycHN > > wSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARtc2dJZAM0MDQ1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTIx > > NTc4NDk2OA--?act=reply&messageNum=4045>|> > > Start a new topic> < > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ > > post;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZGlxM3ZsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycHN > > wSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Njg->> > > Messages< > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ > > messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNTJ0cm5tBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGd > > ycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNtc2dzBHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Njg- > > |> > > Files< > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ > > files;_ylc=X3oDMTJnNjA5ZjdhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycH > > NwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNmaWxlcwRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4>|> > > Photos< > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ > > photos;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNnJjdjluBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdyc > > HNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNwaG90BHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Njg- > > |> > > Links< > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ > > links;_ylc=X3oDMTJnN3NvN3NpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycH > > NwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNsaW5rcwRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4>|> > > Database< > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ > > database;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMWU1OXNuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGd > > ycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNkYgRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4>|> > > Polls< > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ > > polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJnYmw3dnYzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdycH > > NwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNwb2xscwRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4>|> > > Members< > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ > > members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbzYyNXQ1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdy > > cHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Njg-> > > |> > > Calendar< > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ > > calendar;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZjZjaWNwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGd > > ycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNjYWwEc3RpbWUDMTIxNTc4NDk2OA-- > > > MARKETPLACE> ------------------------------> Special offer for Yahoo! > > Groups> < > > http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13r4sn4qb/ > > M=624381.12730922.13032918.10835568/D=groups/S=1708343758:MKP1/ > > Y=YAHOO/EXP=1215792168/L=/B=8d5RAELaX9w-/J=1215784968592283/ > > A=5396680/R=0/SIG=14e7adlkt/*http://media.adrevolver.com/ > > adrevolver/href?banner=197791&place=26143&url_=http:// > > tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/display.com?cid=bbi00027>from> > > Blockbuster! 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Groups> > and category > > pages.< > > http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13ob78g66/ > > M=493064.12016306.12445698.8674578/D=groups/S=1708343758:NC/ > > Y=YAHOO/EXP=1215792168/L=/B=895RAELaX9w-/J=1215784968592283/ > > A=4763760/R=0/SIG=11ou7otip/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/ > > bestofyahoogroups/>> > > There is something> > for everyone.> Yahoo! Groups> > Real Food > > Group< > > http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13o1vgd34/ > > M=493064.12016243.13036160.8674578/D=groups/S=1708343758:NC/ > > Y=YAHOO/EXP=1215792168/L=/B=9N5RAELaX9w-/J=1215784968592283/ > > A=5379228/R=0/SIG=11gatb1qb/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/ > > hellmanns/>> > > Share recipes> > and favorite meals.> .> > __,_._,___> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open > > discussion > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To > > subscribe: send > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > > subject > > header.> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Making the world a better place one message at a time. > > http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Jul 12 19:51:43 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 19:51:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FACT Exhibition at IHC In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807120709k603b5bb5p167f074a159fad6f@mail.gmail.com> References: <4057fac40807110702p2f2b44fbxb9ce8a9ff1926ac9@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807111001u7fe28e50g12939b4f4235f1ca@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807112239j380c34bfq8bcd7b3689aed134@mail.gmail.com> <035EDB06-2832-4B9B-A1E4-32CDF430C10E@sarai.net> <9c06aab30807120601j36fe8c5ax3833113dac85e0ec@mail.gmail.com> <5BA2C1F8-1CFF-4C90-8F4B-EB5C30BD0F55@sarai.net> <9c06aab30807120709k603b5bb5p167f074a159fad6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Shivam. I for one do not symathise at all with the Naxalite project, because I think it represents an authoritarian-state capitalist form of power that is potentially just as ruthless as the one it wants to replace. Maoism in practice, when it has been a ruling power is nothing if not an extremely coercive form of state power. The history of China, particularly with reference to the forced famines of the 'Great Leap Forward' period, (which themselves are reminiscent of the forced famines and extreme brutality that characterized Stalinist interventions in the Soviet countryside during the 1930s) is not something I either look forward to, or have any nostalgia for. Mao Xe Dong, like Stalin, Pol Pot, Franco, Mussolini, Hitler, Ayatollah Khomeini, and the statesmen of the Imperial west cannot be characterised in the judgement of history as anything other than in terms of the violence of their tyranny. However, if disposessed tribals rely on armed Naxal dalams for a momentary respite against the rapacious violence of state supported militias and the legitimate security forces of the Indian republic, I am not inordinately surprised. Nor do I find it necessary to be judgemental of this. My political opposition to the Naxal project does not for a moment distract me into condemning those amongst the labouring poor who for practical reasons that have to do with matters of life and death, choose to become its partisans. I hope this clarifies things a little regards Shuddha On 12-Jul-08, at 7:39 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > Dear Shuddha, > > I completely agree with you that an ordinary tribal would be wont > to choose the Naxalite over the corporate-criminal called the > Indian politician. On 'informal security personnel', I am less sure > if all the victims can be characterised thus. This is true of Bihar > and Jharkhand - indeed, there has been more than enough evidence > that the Ranvir Sena was promoted and supported by mainstream > political parties. But this is not an open and shut case, it leaves > us with questions, perhaps banal ones. The political activist who > uses violence in response to Naxalism, the political activist whose > violence begets support for Naxalism... did the chicken come first > or the egg? Then again, I have heard of these political parties > appeasing Naxalites, particularly in Jharkhand, for support in > elections. > > And then there might be those who have been appointed > administrators by the Indian state, the collector or the patwari, > who are also similarly targeted by Naxalites just because they > represent the Indian state. As representatives of the Indian state, > they do carry out the agenda of looting the mineral-rich regions, > displacing the tribals to nowhere... I wonder where the buck began > and where it stops, I wonder if I can sympathise, politically > speaking, with the Naxalite project even one bit because a > displaced tribal has joined the naxalite dalam... > > best > shivam > > > On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 7:24 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > Dear Shivam, > > > > I agree with you substantially on this matter. > > > > As for those who hose who (in your words) > >> represent the Indian state but are not security personnel. >> (includes all those who are involved in mainstream, electoral >> politics) >> > > Yes, they too must be counted amongst the civilian casualties, and > I have absolutely no doubt at all about the fact that those called > 'Naxals' use intimidation and terror against them. Several of these > people (who have interests in the Indian state in electoral terms > but are not security personnel) however, are not simply unarmed > political workers. Some are, many are not. Included amongst them > are especially the party workers of the Rashtriya Janata Dal, the > Janata Dal (United), the Jharkhand Mukti Morcha (all factions) the > Communist Party of India, the Communist Party of india (Marxist), > the Congress, the Bharatiya Janata Party and the Samajwadi Party. > All these people are also quite well armed. They too use terror and > intimidation as an everyday feature of their political methods > (whenever necessary), just as the so called 'Naxals' do. I have > often wondered how we might characterize this population. Your > response gives me a pointer, perhaps they could be called the > 'informal insecurity personnel of the Indian state' > > > I am not for a moment suggesting that anyone is innocent here, and > I certainly hold no brief for the retrograde left-nationalist > variety of politics that calls itself 'Maoism'. However, I can see > why, if the interests of the indigenous tribal poor of these areas > are threatened by the state, which, in cahoots with large corporate > mining interests, seeks to disposess people of their land, why they > would not be utterly indifferent to the brand of politics that > Maoism represents. Given a choice between a body of highly armed > men who want to throw you out of your land, and disrupt your way of > life, and another body of armed men, who fight the first body of > armed men, forming a temporary, non-ideological and pragmatic > alliance with the second body of armed men is not an irrational > choice. > > > > The largest body of victims however, would in all probability be - > simply - ordinary human beings who do not necessarily hold or > advertize their political and quasi-criminal affiliations in this > protracted gang war. I think these nuances, however, are lost on > the easy categorizations presented to us by FACT and other such > entities. > > > > I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. > > > > regards > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12-Jul-08, at 6:31 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > wrote: > > >> Dear Shuddha, >> >> >> >> One is as usual grateful to you for illuminating what was >> deliberately >> >> hidden. Naxalism is the sort of far Left political mobilisation that >> >> evokes interesting responses from left, left-liberals, >> >> liberals-but-not-leftists, Marxists, post-Marxists - and similar >> >> gradients of the right. So it is indeed important to know where an >> >> anti-Naxal response is coming from, and so one is grateful for your >> >> frisking in this case. >> >> >> >> Just one thing: the civilian casualties you point to, no doubt >> include >> >> innocents killed by security forces, but they also include those who >> >> represent the Indian state but are not security personnel. This >> >> includes all those who are involved in mainstream, electoral politics >> >> and who are killed for just that. >> >> >> >> (To digress, this reminds of an important point made by Prashant Jha >> >> in this travel essay on Naxalism - >> >> http://www.himalmag.com/2007/december/ >> cover_feature_india_naxatile.html >> >> - one that few make: Naxalism thrives where democratic politics was >> >> already weak, of left or right, and once Naxalism begins to take >> root, >> >> it prevents democratic politics from spreading.) >> >> >> >> In the case of Chhattisgarh, no doubt the civilian casualties are >> >> largely coming from Salwa Judum atrocities, but perhaps equally from >> >> Naxalites killing those who join Salwa Judum, or seek to, or >> refuse to >> >> join either. While Chattisgarh's average stats have an over- >> bearing of >> >> the Salwa Judum-caused figures, I think it is important to remember >> >> while talking of Naxalism that Salwa Judum is present only in one of >> >> the 160 (or whatever the claim is by whoever) districts that are >> >> "Naxalite affected". This is not to downplay the mayhem that a >> >> state-run militia is causing in the Dantewada district of the Basatar >> >> plateau, but Dantewada is not India. >> >> >> >> best >> >> shivam >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Aditya, dear Pankhuree, dear all, >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you, Aditya, for forwarding information about the FACT >>> >>> (Foundation Against Continuing Terrorism) sponsored exhibition >>> >>> titled: 'Naxalism: A Threat to the Unified Nation of India' >>> >>> >>> >>> While I am no sympathizer of Maoism, or those who are either called >>> >>> 'Maoists' or 'Naxalites' in India, I do have a few bones to pick >>> with >>> >>> the contents of the exhibition at the India Habitat Centre that you >>> >>> have recommended to us. >>> >>> >>> >>> While looking at what pretends to be information of this nature >>> it is >>> >>> always useful to do a little thinking about numbers. The statistics >>> >>> of casualties in the FACT exhibition are taken from the monthly >>> >>> statistics and reports published in the South Asia Intelligence >>> >>> Review by the South Asia Terrorism Portal, a think tank headed by >>> the >>> >>> notorious former Punjab police chief who masterminded disappearances >>> >>> and the utilization of 'renegade' militants as an instrument of >>> >>> policy in Punjab and the North East, architect of the Indian hockey >>> >>> team's disasters and well known pincher of women's bottoms, Mr. KPS >>> >>> GIll. I am a regular recipient of the SAIR and I happen to follow >>> the >>> >>> figures that are mentioned in its reports quite diligently. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have no quarrel with the reports, as such, as I have no way of >>> >>> assessing their accuracy, or inaccuracy. However, I do have a >>> quarrel >>> >>> with the way in which this information is presented in the FACT >>> >>> exhibition. In each instance, there is a heading called 'civilian >>> >>> casualties' . Let us take the Table that says 'Naxal Violence in >>> >>> Chattisgarh' and analyse the information given for the year 2007 >>> >>> >>> >>> " Security Forces Casualties 181 >>> >>> Civilian Casualties 166 >>> >>> Naxalites Killed 66 " >>> >>> >>> >>> What I find interesting is the figure for 'Civilian Casualties'. >>> >>> Given in this way, it appears as if the 'Civilians' killed are >>> due to >>> >>> 'Naxal' violence. The sources of these figures, the SAIR bulletins, >>> >>> simply title their tables as "Weekly Fatalities: Major Conflicts in >>> >>> South Asia" , which in my opinion, is a far more precise way of >>> >>> talking about the casualty figures, because it does not actually >>> >>> attribute specific authorship to the violence. This is significant, >>> >>> because the 'civilans' while they may be targetted on occasion by >>> the >>> >>> Maoists, are also, generally, in a far larger measure, targetted by >>> >>> the security forces, and the 'Anti-Maoist' militia called the Salwa >>> >>> Judum. So, when we see 'civilian casualties' we are looking at a >>> >>> number of people who may have been killed, by 'Naxals', by security >>> >>> forces, by militia like the 'Salwa Judum'. Since, 'Naxals' depend on >>> >>> their survival on the sympathies (and to a certain extent, fear) of >>> >>> the tribal poor, it is extremely unrealistic to deduce that they >>> >>> would in fact be the primary authors of the violence that is >>> >>> described as 'civilian casualties'. Numerous investigations report >>> >>> that the actual primary authors of this violence are the security >>> >>> forces, and the Salwa Judum, both of which act with impunity in >>> >>> Chattisgarh. In this instance, the FACT exhibition is indulging in a >>> >>> serious case of disinformation. It could be argued that it is doing >>> >>> so at the behest of the primary authors of this violence, that is, >>> >>> the security forces and those who have floated outfits such as the >>> >>> 'Salwa Judum'. >>> >>> >>> >>> In the FACT exhibition text, the Salwa Judum is introduced as 'Hope >>> >>> Floats'. It is by now well documented that the Salwa Judum is in >>> fact >>> >>> one of the deadliest and most lethal armed outfits operating in >>> >>> India, which coerces tribals who are forced into detention camps to >>> >>> join it as footsoldiers, which uses child soldiers and uses rape, >>> >>> torture and arson. It has become an instrument of state terror, and >>> >>> is supported by the corporate interests which have a stake in the >>> >>> mining operations in the area to clear tribals off the land that the >>> >>> mining companies lust after. >>> >>> >>> >>> Even the South Asia Terrorism Portal (which the FACT exhibition >>> >>> relies on extensively, otherwise) has this to say about the Salwa >>> Judum >>> >>> >>> >>> "However, local reports from the areas witnessing the campaign have >>> >>> been disturbing, with analysts questioning the policy of state >>> >>> support to a vigilante movement that exposes large numbers of >>> >>> civilians to unacceptable risk. According to a former Director >>> >>> General of Police, Dr. K S Subramanian, "While official sources >>> >>> maintain that the campaign, led by a local legislator, is hugely >>> >>> successful with the tribal people joining it in large numbers, local >>> >>> enquiries revealed a different picture. In the name of Salwa Judum, >>> >>> the tribal people are being forced to join a far from spontaneous >>> >>> mobilisation… Hundreds have been killed on both sides. A large >>> area >>> >>> of land remains uncultivated; tribal people who are meant to work on >>> >>> the land have deserted the villages and are living under open skies >>> >>> and are starving. A vast amount of corruption has crept in as a >>> >>> result of this misconceived campaign with the ruling party spending >>> >>> huge amounts on it." >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/sair/archives/4_33.htm >>> >>> >>> >>> For a more detailed investigation of the Salwa Judum's 'spontaneous' >>> >>> activities, please see - the PUCL (Peoples Union for Civil >>> >>> Liberties) report on the Salwa Judum at >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.pucl.org/Topics/Human-rights/2006/slawajudum.htm >>> >>> >>> >>> There are other howlers in the exhibition, such as the fact that. >>> the >>> >>> Ranvir Sena is mentioned as a Naxalite organization. Now, the Ranvir >>> >>> Sena, as is very well known, is a militia of upper caste landowners >>> >>> in Bihar and parts of Jharkhand that has actually been at war (like >>> >>> the Salwa Judum) with the Naxals for several decades now. Calling >>> the >>> >>> Ranvir Sena a 'Naxalite' organization is a bit like calling Panun >>> >>> Kashmir, or Roots in Kashmir a front organization of the JKLF or the >>> >>> Hizbul Mujahideen in Kashmir. >>> >>> >>> >>> Finally, a word about FACT, the outfit that has organized this >>> >>> exhibition. The moving force behind FACT is the rather flamboyant >>> >>> French expatriate journalist based in Delhi, Francois Gautier, whose >>> >>> sympathies for hard line Hindu Fundamentalism has never been a >>> secret. >>> >>> >>> >>> He founded FACT with money he got from the'Nachiketa' Journalism >>> >>> prize awarded to him by the then Prime Minister of India Mr Atal >>> >>> Bihari Vajpayee on behalf of the Government of India. The Nachiketa >>> >>> prize has been instituted by the Panchajanya group of publications, >>> >>> which just happens to be the inhouse publishing arm of the Rashtriya >>> >>> Svayamsevak Sangh (RSS) >>> >>> >>> >>> Gautier's services as the South Asia Correspondent of the French >>> >>> newspaper, Le Figaro were terminated in 2000 on the grounds of his >>> >>> obviously biased (and often factually compromised) reportage. He has >>> >>> since then, spent time acting as the chief public relations point >>> man >>> >>> for Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, and getting even closer to sections of the >>> >>> political far right in India. >>> >>> >>> >>> Apologies for this lengthy response, but I think it is necessary to >>> >>> have a few facts straight about FACT. Our patriots, while they >>> have a >>> >>> great deal of enthusiasm, are not generally well known for >>> precision, >>> >>> and the boring matter of attempting to maintain a consistency with, >>> >>> em, the facts. >>> >>> >>> >>> regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Shuddha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 12-Jul-08, at 11:09 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Hi Pankhuree, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> You can check the online exhibition here: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Here it is. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.scribd.com/doc/2469417/Naxal-Low-Res- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.scribd.com/doc/3907033/5-new-panels >>>> >>>> For More details Mr. Veeru might be contacted here - Mob: +91 93912 >>>> >>>> 45303 >>>> >>>> +91 98719 49094 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks indeed, >>>> >>>> Aditya Raj Kaul >>>> >>>> Campaign Blog - www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 7/12/08, pankhuree dube wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi Mr. Kaul, >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for forwarding a description of this exhibit. It sounds >>>>> >>>>> fascinating. Do you know if there are any plans to make it >>>>> >>>>> available online >>>>> >>>>> so that individuals who are not able to view it in India can have >>>>> >>>>> a chance >>>>> >>>>> to read further about it? >>>>> >>>>> I would very much like to be able to see it firsthand, but even a >>>>> >>>>> brief >>>>> >>>>> description of the findings and perhaps a list of resources for >>>>> >>>>> further >>>>> >>>>> reading would be of great interest to me.Many thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Pankhuree >>>>> >>>>>> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 22:31:40 +0530> From: >>>>>> >>>>>> kauladityaraj at gmail.com> >>>>>> >>>>> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FACT >>>>> >>>>> Exhibition at >>>>> >>>>> IHC> > *FACT INDIA: Exhibition on Naxalism opens in India Habitat >>>>> >>>>> Centre*> > >>>>> >>>>> *The Naxalism: A threat to Unified nation of India* The Exhibition >>>>> >>>>> is a> >>>>> >>>>> reflection of the Maoist insurgency in India, a blend of >>>>> photographs> >>>>> >>>>> statistics and ofcourse an analysis and a presentation of >>>>> FACTS. The> >>>>> >>>>> exhibition will be open for visitors at the INDIA HAbitat >>>>> centre from >>>>> >>>>> *8-14th> july 2008*. The exhibition has already travelled to Oslo >>>>> >>>>> and was >>>>> >>>>> screened on> the sidelines of "The Conference on Peace and >>>>> >>>>> Reconciliation in >>>>> >>>>> South Asia -> Challenges and Opportunities."> > *The Exhibition* >>>>> >>>>> travels >>>>> >>>>> through the lives of the victims in the Naxal> infested states and >>>>> >>>>> present >>>>> >>>>> their lives as well as the lives of those> vallant fighters both >>>>> >>>>> civilian >>>>> >>>>> and from the government. Its the Fight> against terrorism the >>>>> idea of >>>>> >>>>> killing because one doesnt believe or just> disagree with the >>>>> others, >>>>> >>>>> Intolerence and disharmony.> > > > Timings: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 >>>>> >>>>> - Monday, >>>>> >>>>> July 14, 2008> > Venue: India Habitat Center, < >>>>> >>>>> http://upcoming.yahoo.com/venue/131044/>Lodhi> Road, New Delhi> >>>>> > > > >>>>> >>>>> Contact number:- Mr Veer 099871949094> > > -- > Thanks & regards> >>>>> >>>>> Rinku >>>>> >>>>> thusoo> Delhi> > http://kashmir-in-exile.blogspot.com> >>>>> >>>>> http://jokingbudha.blogspot.com> __._,_.___ Messages in this >>>>> topic> < >>>>> >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/message/ >>>>> >>>>> 4045;_ylc=X3oDMTM1OWhsbmZtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdy >>>>> cHN >>>>> >>>>> wSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARtc2dJZAM0MDQ1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDM >>>>> TIx >>>>> >>>>> NTc4NDk2OAR0cGNJZAM0MDQ1>> >>>>> >>>>> (1) Reply (via web post)> < >>>>> >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>>>> >>>>> post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMXNpMHRhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdy >>>>> cHN >>>>> >>>>> wSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARtc2dJZAM0MDQ1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDM >>>>> TIx >>>>> >>>>> NTc4NDk2OA--?act=reply&messageNum=4045>|> >>>>> >>>>> Start a new topic> < >>>>> >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>>>> >>>>> post;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZGlxM3ZsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdy >>>>> cHN >>>>> >>>>> wSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Njg-> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> Messages< >>>>> >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>>>> >>>>> messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNTJ0cm5tBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3 >>>>> BGd >>>>> >>>>> ycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNtc2dzBHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5N >>>>> jg- >>>>> >>>>>> |> >>>>>> >>>>> Files< >>>>> >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>>>> >>>>> files;_ylc=X3oDMTJnNjA5ZjdhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGd >>>>> ycH >>>>> >>>>> NwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNmaWxlcwRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4 >>>>> >|> >>>>> >>>>> Photos< >>>>> >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>>>> >>>>> photos;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNnJjdjluBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BG >>>>> dyc >>>>> >>>>> HNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNwaG90BHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Njg >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>>> |> >>>>>> >>>>> Links< >>>>> >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>>>> >>>>> links;_ylc=X3oDMTJnN3NvN3NpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGd >>>>> ycH >>>>> >>>>> NwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNsaW5rcwRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4 >>>>> >|> >>>>> >>>>> Database< >>>>> >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>>>> >>>>> database;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMWU1OXNuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3 >>>>> BGd >>>>> >>>>> ycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNkYgRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4> >>>>> |> >>>>> >>>>> Polls< >>>>> >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>>>> >>>>> polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJnYmw3dnYzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGd >>>>> ycH >>>>> >>>>> NwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNwb2xscwRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4 >>>>> >|> >>>>> >>>>> Members< >>>>> >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>>>> >>>>> members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbzYyNXQ1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3B >>>>> Gdy >>>>> >>>>> cHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Nj >>>>> g-> >>>>> >>>>> |> >>>>> >>>>> Calendar< >>>>> >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/ >>>>> >>>>> calendar;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZjZjaWNwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3 >>>>> BGd >>>>> >>>>> ycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNjYWwEc3RpbWUDMTIxNTc4NDk2O >>>>> A-- >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> MARKETPLACE> ------------------------------> Special offer for >>>>> Yahoo! >>>>> >>>>> Groups> < >>>>> >>>>> http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13r4sn4qb/ >>>>> >>>>> M=624381.12730922.13032918.10835568/D=groups/S=1708343758:MKP1/ >>>>> >>>>> Y=YAHOO/EXP=1215792168/L=/B=8d5RAELaX9w-/J=1215784968592283/ >>>>> >>>>> A=5396680/R=0/SIG=14e7adlkt/*http://media.adrevolver.com/ >>>>> >>>>> adrevolver/href?banner=197791&place=26143&url_=http:// >>>>> >>>>> tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/display.com?cid=bbi00027>from> >>>>> >>>>> Blockbuster! 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Groups> > Real Food >>>>>> >>>>>> Group< >>>>>> >>>>> http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13o1vgd34/ >>>>> >>>>> M=493064.12016243.13036160.8674578/D=groups/S=1708343758:NC/ >>>>> >>>>> Y=YAHOO/EXP=1215792168/L=/B=9N5RAELaX9w-/J=1215784968592283/ >>>>> >>>>> A=5379228/R=0/SIG=11gatb1qb/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/ >>>>> >>>>> hellmanns/>> >>>>> >>>>>> Share recipes> > and favorite meals.> .> > __,_._,___> >>>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open >>>>> >>>>> discussion >>>>> >>>>> list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To >>>>> >>>>> subscribe: send >>>>> >>>>> an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the >>>>> >>>>> subject >>>>> >>>>> header.> To unsubscribe: >>>>> >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List >>>>> archive: < >>>>> >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> Making the world a better place one message at a time. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace >>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>>>> list >>>>> >>>>> List archive: >>>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> >>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>> >>> Raqs Media Collective >>> >>> shuddha at sarai.net >>> >>> www.sarai.net >>> >>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From pkray11 at gmail.com Sat Jul 12 20:52:16 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 20:52:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar Message-ID: <98f331e00807120822j284b62c3u21fa8b74e148e6e5@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' ones (read Shuddha, Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the current debate over the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, have 'always' attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do not want to blame them for their political positions, but I would accuse them for their shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive contribution or position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves 'liberated' since we write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that our 'false sense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our handsome salaries and convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that a sin. However, I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' approach. Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not articulate their position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear sacredness. Their belief of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based on a report appeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that they believe what the TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or economic policies etc. Shivam could have researched on the matter since he is a reporter himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support extended by the Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting interviewed in the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes interviews of the politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of the Salwa Judum infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at regular intervention and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R Narayanan on the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in place of the customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, the right-wingers get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about the moderator or Shuddha himself? I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to the US administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I do not find any fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact that the US and Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do not think the readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault if someone sees the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I consider the nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on the poor and less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation against the policies and politics of the US. Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. Let me ask some simple questions: Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the Congress? Should the Left continue the support so that Dr Singh could go ahead with the Deal? Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit in elections if the Govt falls? Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left oppose or support everything only on the basis of the position taken by the BJP? Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology of the 'clash of civilizations'? Regards, Prakash From mail at shivamvij.com Sat Jul 12 20:57:24 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 20:57:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <98f331e00807120822j284b62c3u21fa8b74e148e6e5@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00807120822j284b62c3u21fa8b74e148e6e5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807120827r43ba7884h41ac4540b336bd26@mail.gmail.com> > Shivam could have researched on the matter since he is a reporter > himself. I wonder why a non-reporter can't do research. And if you know these things, are you a supra-editor or something???? On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 8:52 PM, prakash ray wrote: > > Dear all, > > It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' ones (read Shuddha, > Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the current debate over > the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, have 'always' > attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do not want to blame them for > their political positions, but I would accuse them for their > shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive contribution or > position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves 'liberated' since we > write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that our 'false > sense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our handsome salaries and > convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that a sin. However, > I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' approach. > > Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not articulate their > position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear sacredness. Their belief > of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based on a report > appeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that they believe what the > TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or economic policies > etc. Shivam could have researched on the matter since he is a reporter > himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support extended by the > Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting interviewed in > the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every > newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes interviews of the > politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of the Salwa Judum > infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at regular intervention > and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R Narayanan on > the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in place of the > customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, the right-wingers > get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about the moderator or > Shuddha himself? > > I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to the US > administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and > continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I do not find any > fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact that the US and > Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do not think the > readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault if someone sees > the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I consider the > nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on the poor and > less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation against the > policies and politics of the US. > > Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. > > Let me ask some simple questions: > > Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the Congress? > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr Singh could go ahead with > the Deal? > Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit in elections if > the Govt falls? > Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left oppose or support > everything only on the basis of the position taken by the BJP? > Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology of the 'clash of > civilizations'? > > Regards, > Prakash > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ From pkray11 at gmail.com Sat Jul 12 21:10:05 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:10:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807120827r43ba7884h41ac4540b336bd26@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00807120822j284b62c3u21fa8b74e148e6e5@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807120827r43ba7884h41ac4540b336bd26@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <98f331e00807120840g5433830an6d3166b9459760d0@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shivam, What I meant to say that since you are a reporter, you could have collectted more on that since as reporter you have certain avenues and previledges, and through your contacts and fellow-reporters. No. I am not anything, just a member on this list. I had joined DD in 2003, later same year UNI. also worked with India TV for sometime when Tarun Tejpal, Editor-in-Chief, was associated with the chhanel alongwith Ms Menaka Gandhi, a BJP MP. You are right that a non-reporter can do research. I also left media to be a researcher. Prakash On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 8:57 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Shivam could have researched on the matter since he is a reporter > > himself. > > I wonder why a non-reporter can't do research. And if you know these > things, are you a supra-editor or something???? > > > On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 8:52 PM, prakash ray wrote: > > > > Dear all, > > > > It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' ones (read Shuddha, > > Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the current debate > over > > the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, have 'always' > > attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do not want to blame them > for > > their political positions, but I would accuse them for their > > shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive contribution or > > position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves 'liberated' since we > > write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that our 'false > > sense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our handsome salaries and > > convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that a sin. > However, > > I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' approach. > > > > Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not articulate > their > > position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear sacredness. Their > belief > > of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based on a report > > appeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that they believe what the > > TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or economic > policies > > etc. Shivam could have researched on the matter since he is a reporter > > himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support extended by the > > Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting interviewed in > > the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every > > newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes interviews of the > > politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of the Salwa Judum > > infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at regular > intervention > > and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R Narayanan on > > the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in place of the > > customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, the > right-wingers > > get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about the moderator or > > Shuddha himself? > > > > I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to the US > > administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and > > continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I do not find > any > > fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact that the US > and > > Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do not think the > > readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault if someone > sees > > the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I consider the > > nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on the poor and > > less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation against the > > policies and politics of the US. > > > > Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. > > > > Let me ask some simple questions: > > > > Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the Congress? > > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr Singh could go ahead with > > the Deal? > > Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit in elections > if > > the Govt falls? > > Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left oppose or support > > everything only on the basis of the position taken by the BJP? > > Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology of the 'clash of > > civilizations'? > > > > Regards, > > Prakash > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- > /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > -- Prakash K Ray 225, Sutlej, JNU, New Delhi-110067. cinemela.blogspot.com (0) 9873313315 From mail at shivamvij.com Sat Jul 12 21:13:55 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:13:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <98f331e00807120840g5433830an6d3166b9459760d0@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00807120822j284b62c3u21fa8b74e148e6e5@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807120827r43ba7884h41ac4540b336bd26@mail.gmail.com> <98f331e00807120840g5433830an6d3166b9459760d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807120843q52c6f39exdbe72085a6a3276b@mail.gmail.com> And what I meant to say is that I have a problem with not only getting personal in arguments, but more than that, this club mentality, this holier-than-thou approach that if you are a journalist you would know this, and you are a researcher you would know more of this, and if you are a housewife you must be an ignoramus because you don't have access to channels of information. In the age of the internet I don't subscribe to such elitist ides of knowledge. On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 9:10 PM, prakash ray wrote: > Dear Shivam, > > What I meant to say that since you are a reporter, you could have collectted > more on that since as reporter you have certain avenues and previledges, and > through your contacts and fellow-reporters. No. I am not anything, just a > member on this list. I had joined DD in 2003, later same year UNI. also > worked with India TV for sometime when Tarun Tejpal, Editor-in-Chief, was > associated with the chhanel alongwith Ms Menaka Gandhi, a BJP MP. You are > right that a non-reporter can do research. I also left media to be a > researcher. > > Prakash > > On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 8:57 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > wrote: > >> > Shivam could have researched on the matter since he is a reporter >> > himself. >> >> I wonder why a non-reporter can't do research. And if you know these >> things, are you a supra-editor or something???? >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 8:52 PM, prakash ray wrote: >> > >> > Dear all, >> > >> > It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' ones (read Shuddha, >> > Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the current debate >> over >> > the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, have 'always' >> > attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do not want to blame them >> for >> > their political positions, but I would accuse them for their >> > shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive contribution or >> > position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves 'liberated' since we >> > write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that our 'false >> > sense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our handsome salaries and >> > convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that a sin. >> However, >> > I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' approach. >> > >> > Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not articulate >> their >> > position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear sacredness. Their >> belief >> > of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based on a report >> > appeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that they believe what the >> > TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or economic >> policies >> > etc. Shivam could have researched on the matter since he is a reporter >> > himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support extended by the >> > Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting interviewed in >> > the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every >> > newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes interviews of the >> > politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of the Salwa Judum >> > infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at regular >> intervention >> > and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R Narayanan on >> > the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in place of the >> > customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, the >> right-wingers >> > get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about the moderator or >> > Shuddha himself? >> > >> > I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to the US >> > administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and >> > continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I do not find >> any >> > fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact that the US >> and >> > Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do not think the >> > readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault if someone >> sees >> > the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I consider the >> > nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on the poor and >> > less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation against the >> > policies and politics of the US. >> > >> > Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. >> > >> > Let me ask some simple questions: >> > >> > Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the Congress? >> > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr Singh could go ahead with >> > the Deal? >> > Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit in elections >> if >> > the Govt falls? >> > Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left oppose or support >> > everything only on the basis of the position taken by the BJP? >> > Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology of the 'clash of >> > civilizations'? >> > >> > Regards, >> > Prakash >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> -- >> /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ >> > > > > -- > Prakash K Ray > 225, Sutlej, JNU, New Delhi-110067. > cinemela.blogspot.com > (0) 9873313315 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ From mail at shivamvij.com Sat Jul 12 21:16:16 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:16:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807120843q52c6f39exdbe72085a6a3276b@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00807120822j284b62c3u21fa8b74e148e6e5@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807120827r43ba7884h41ac4540b336bd26@mail.gmail.com> <98f331e00807120840g5433830an6d3166b9459760d0@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807120843q52c6f39exdbe72085a6a3276b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807120846v760b67c6g5a2158c83cb575b8@mail.gmail.com> > elitist ides of knowledge I meant ideas On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 9:13 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > And what I meant to say is that I have a problem with not only getting > personal in arguments, but more than that, this club mentality, this > holier-than-thou approach that if you are a journalist you would know > this, and you are a researcher you would know more of this, and if you > are a housewife you must be an ignoramus because you don't have access > to channels of information. In the age of the internet I don't > subscribe to such elitist ides of knowledge. > > On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 9:10 PM, prakash ray wrote: >> Dear Shivam, >> >> What I meant to say that since you are a reporter, you could have collectted >> more on that since as reporter you have certain avenues and previledges, and >> through your contacts and fellow-reporters. No. I am not anything, just a >> member on this list. I had joined DD in 2003, later same year UNI. also >> worked with India TV for sometime when Tarun Tejpal, Editor-in-Chief, was >> associated with the chhanel alongwith Ms Menaka Gandhi, a BJP MP. You are >> right that a non-reporter can do research. I also left media to be a >> researcher. >> >> Prakash >> >> On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 8:57 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् >> wrote: >> >>> > Shivam could have researched on the matter since he is a reporter >>> > himself. >>> >>> I wonder why a non-reporter can't do research. And if you know these >>> things, are you a supra-editor or something???? >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 8:52 PM, prakash ray wrote: >>> > >>> > Dear all, >>> > >>> > It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' ones (read Shuddha, >>> > Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the current debate >>> over >>> > the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, have 'always' >>> > attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do not want to blame them >>> for >>> > their political positions, but I would accuse them for their >>> > shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive contribution or >>> > position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves 'liberated' since we >>> > write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that our 'false >>> > sense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our handsome salaries and >>> > convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that a sin. >>> However, >>> > I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' approach. >>> > >>> > Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not articulate >>> their >>> > position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear sacredness. Their >>> belief >>> > of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based on a report >>> > appeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that they believe what the >>> > TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or economic >>> policies >>> > etc. Shivam could have researched on the matter since he is a reporter >>> > himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support extended by the >>> > Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting interviewed in >>> > the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every >>> > newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes interviews of the >>> > politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of the Salwa Judum >>> > infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at regular >>> intervention >>> > and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R Narayanan on >>> > the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in place of the >>> > customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, the >>> right-wingers >>> > get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about the moderator or >>> > Shuddha himself? >>> > >>> > I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to the US >>> > administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and >>> > continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I do not find >>> any >>> > fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact that the US >>> and >>> > Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do not think the >>> > readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault if someone >>> sees >>> > the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I consider the >>> > nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on the poor and >>> > less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation against the >>> > policies and politics of the US. >>> > >>> > Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. >>> > >>> > Let me ask some simple questions: >>> > >>> > Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the Congress? >>> > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr Singh could go ahead with >>> > the Deal? >>> > Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit in elections >>> if >>> > the Govt falls? >>> > Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left oppose or support >>> > everything only on the basis of the position taken by the BJP? >>> > Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology of the 'clash of >>> > civilizations'? >>> > >>> > Regards, >>> > Prakash >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Prakash K Ray >> 225, Sutlej, JNU, New Delhi-110067. >> cinemela.blogspot.com >> (0) 9873313315 >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > -- /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ From play at ubermorgen.com Sat Jul 12 22:07:13 2008 From: play at ubermorgen.com (UBERMORGEN.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 18:37:13 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] The Sound of eBay - Pressrelease - Enjoy the Silence! Message-ID: OFFICIAL STATEMENT FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE – Enjoy the Silence! Vienna, San Jose, July, 2008 http://sound-of-ebay.com/pdfs/SoE_Press_Release_no_1.pdf The Sound of eBay an UBERMORGEN.COM project http://www.Sound-of-eBay.com Forget the technology, it’s lustful entertainment, baby! ABSTRACT How does it really work? We generate unique songs by using eBay user-data. You simply enter any eBay username (your own or someone else's) and add your email address so we can notify you as soon as the song is ready for downloading. Then click „generate“ and our robots sprawl out into the net to collect data. Then the robots bring back the data to our sc3 supercollider soundgeneration-engine. Finally, the complex software- machine starts generating a score-file which is then transformed into your unique but uniform song and presented in teletext porn style! We sell out your human needs digitally... STORY First there was silence... Then there was data... But there was no story... Just images and sounds... Cities were built and a grid was laid on top of the topography Within this global grid a company named eBay became the largest marketplace, with very local marketspaces. eBay is romantic and seductive, not like the local fleamarkets in Paris (Le marché aux puces de Saint-Ouen) but sexed up a million times bigger and spherically transcended, much more effective and thoroughly commercialized. We love it! "The Sound of eBay" is the affirmative high-end low-tech contribution to the atomic soundtrack of the new peer-to-peer hyper-catastrophic shock-capitalism. The sound is cool, the machine produces masses of songs and replicates millions of times throughout the networks – flooding the net, a bubbling sea of artifical songs visualized in CONTEMPORARY teletext – a continental drift within a macromusic universal urban scape. Trash-Radio. Forget the technology, its lustful entertainment, baby! http://www.Sound-of-eBay.com EKMRZ-TRILOGY UBERMORGEN.COM is attracted by the surface of Google, Amazon and eBay, the three historical e-giants brilliantly surviving the dotcom boom and the legendary crash at the end of that era. Back then and still today the three kings form the powerful spearhead of e-commerce (EKMRZ). By creating the third piece – The Sound of eBay – we wrap up the trilogy we had started in 2005. Thanks to Alessandro Ludovico and Paolo Cirio for the GWEI - Google Will Eat Itself and Amazon Noir – The Big Book Crime collaboration GWEI – Google Will Eat Itself, 2005/06 http://www.gwei.org Amazon Noir – The Big Book Crime, 2006/07 http://www.amazon-noir.com The Sound of eBay, 2008/09 http://www.Sound-of-eBay.com SONGS We love it! The Sound of eBay is our affirmative low-tech contribution to the ATOMIC soundtrack of the peer-to-peer hyper- catastrophic shock-capitalism. Reference: Peter Weibels Song "Sex in der Stadt" (Sex in the City) from 1982 - Hotel Morphila Orchester, where PW "raps" (sings) sex-ads from a newspaper. Here some sample songs from the SoE-Database: http://sound-of-ebay.com/songs/080611_014322_jibscott.mp3 http://sound-of-ebay.com/songs/080611_004144_girlnumber4.mp3 http://sound-of-ebay.com/songs/080610_234922_beautifulcynic.mp3 http://sound-of-ebay.com/songs/080610_221629_toastyfrog.mp3 http://sound-of-ebay.com/songs/080610_212727_rhit_mst3kjunkie.mp3 currently REGISTERED 560.544 eBay accounts - 1.3 million songs (6.5 TB data) http://www.sound-of-ebay.com/podcast TECHNOLOGY eBay's concept is based on transactions between buyers and sellers – transactions between human beings, not consumers and companies. The eBay-Generator software reflects this concept in a way that it does not only generate your free personal song. The black box will be released a standalone application published under gnu public licence – written in supercollider (sc3). A free application that any user can install on her/his Computer to produce an endless stream of bubbling eBay-grooves. Each song has a SoE-MD5 key of authentification. Every user has a signature which corresponds with another users signature. Chains of transactions, a swarm of bots, each song has a memory and therefore has it’s own history. Steganography of songs... can you reverse engineer the string? The robots run into the bazar of fraud (eBay.com), grab sensitive (creditcard information, bank details, passwords, etc if available) and non-sensitive user-data (bought and sold items, prices, comments, ratings, etc), recontextualizes them and creates new, individual and unique profiles. In-depth tech description: http://sound-of-ebay.com/pdfs/SoE_Technology.pdf SCORE 5.075 n_set 1093 gate 0 5.1 s_new hat 1094 0 1 out 0 ts 5 amp 0.3 5.1 s_new blipBase 1095 0 1 out 0 freq 1.2857142857143 length 0.083333333333333 rq 0.35 emph 20 amp 0.45 a 38 b 39 n1 2 n2 3 5.1 s_new bd 1096 0 1 out 0 amp 0.5 rq 0.35 emph -20 delaytime 0.001 decay 0.4 5.1 g_new 1097 1 1 5.1 s_new sd 1099 0 1 out 0 amp 0.3 5.100000001 s_new system_link_audio_2 1098 3 1097 out 0 in 16 fadeTime 0.02 gate 1 doneAction 3 5.100000002 s_new sampleOutMono 1100 0 1097 out 16 bufnum 0 startpos 0 duration 3.7151927437642 amp 0.6 5.100000002 s_new panHelper 1101 1 1097 out 16 5.100000002 s_new vocodeIt 1102 1 1097 out 16 base 0 bufnumA 143 bufnumB 144 note 0.75 xfade 1 5.2 n_set 1095 gate 0 5.225 s_new hat 1103 0 1 out 0 ts 5 amp 0.3 5.225 s_new blipBase 1104 0 1 out 0 freq 2.5714285714286 length 0.083333333333333 rq 0.35 emph 20 amp 0.45 a 38 b 39 n1 2 n2 3 5.325 n_set 1104 gate 0 5.35 s_new hat 1105 0 1 out 0 ts 7 amp 0.3 5.35 s_new blipBase 1106 0 1 out 0 freq 1.2857142857143 length 0.083333333333333 rq 0.35 emph 20 amp 0.45 a 38 b 39 n1 2 n2 3 5.350000002 n_set 1102 out 16 base 0 bufnumA 143 bufnumB 144 note 2.6666666666667 xfade 1 5.45 n_set 1106 gate 0 THEORY "...As part of their sustainable trilogy the critical level of "UBERMORGEN.COM"’s media-integrated storytelling has reached the coastline of business-island "eBay". Braking the waves of cyberspaced e-commerce tsunamis by transforming singular binary micro- transactions of homo oeconomicus into auditive vortexes and granular compositions by pirating privacy.... ...By discovering this undetected entropolis, the colonization of data-hungry network-crawlers and blackboxed info-transformers is feeding a suspicious synaesthesia within the neatly structured columns of profit-orientated socio-technological networks..." Theorycoding by Grischinka Teufl http://www.Sound-of-eBay.com/700.html http://sound-of-ebay.com/pdfs/SOE_UBERMORGEN.COM_grischinka_teufl.pdf VISUALCODING Visualcoding by LIA http://www.sound-of-eBay.com/visualcoding.html The visualcoding by LIA - http://www.strangeThingsHappen.org - is created in „Director“ and viewed with shockwave, proprietary software - with restrictions on use or private modification. The Free Software Foundation issued the rule that we cannot install any proprietary program on our computers except temporarily for the specific purpose of writing a free replacement for that very program. STYLE Teletxt-porn by lizvlx: by working with the three main EKMRZ (e- commerce) web-sites Google, Amazon and eBay, the last target was approached with an antique but royal discipline: TELETEXT. Now teletext has to appear in full glamour and with it`s highest visual attraction: PORN. lizvlx scanned thousands of porn pages of austrian cable television to come up with the finest pixel-boobs & pixel-pussies. Please see also „The Teletext Babez“ video by drx/Bodenstaendig/ Maarten Ploeg, 2001: http://drx.a-blast.org/~drx/projects/teletext/index.en.html AUTHORS UBERMORGEN.COM [A/CH/USA, *1999], UBERMORGEN.COM is an artist duo created in Vienna, Austria, by Lizvlx and Hans Bernhard, a founder of etoy. Behind UBERMORGEN.COM we can find one of the most unmatchable identities – controversial and iconoclast – of the contemporary European techno-fine-art avant-garde. Their open circuit of conceptual art, drawing, software art, pixel- painting, computer installations, net.art, sculpture and digital actionism (media hacking) transforms their brand into a hybrid Gesamtkunstwerk. The permanent amalgamation of fact and fiction points toward an extremely expanded concept of one’s working materials, that for UBERMORGEN.COM also include (international) rights, democracy and global communication (input-feedback loops). “Ubermorgen” is the German word both for “the day after tomorrow” or “super-tomorrow”. http://www.ubermorgen.com CREDITS Soundcoding Stefan Nussbaumer Visualcoding LIA Theorycoding Grischinka Teufl Scriptcoding Erich Kachel The project is supported by Rhizome.org commissions, BM:UKK (Austria), City of Vienna (MA7/Netznetz.net), The Austrian Embassy in Mexico, net culture lab, eine Innovationsinitiative von Telekom Austria, Jan Lauth, Rencontres Internationales Paris/Berlin/Madrid, lo-res.org http://www.sound-of-ebay.com/800.html „The Sound of eBay“ is an UBERMORGEN.COM project TEAMWORK Networking is working... The different parts of „The Sound of eBay“ were compiled in various geotechnical-locations: The soundcoding by Stefan Nussbaumer was mainly realized in Vienna, Tyrol and Madrid, the Scriptcoding was realized in Germany and implemented in Austria, the visucalcoding by LIA was done in Portugal and implemented in Spain and the theorycoding was prepared in Berlin, written in Vienna and Tokyo and implemented in Madrid. Teletextporn by lizvlx was created in St. Moritz (Switzerland), the first interactive AV- installations were put together in Mexico-City and in Madrid, the web- server is located in the „crypta“ (VIVI Vienna, lo-res.org server) and the coordination, PR and web-implementation were realized in St. Moritz and Vienna... There was one real-life meeting in Vienna; all other communication took place in various skype-conferences, via email and through phone conversations. CONTACT UBERMORGEN.COM, Vienna (Austria), St. Moritz (Switzerland) silence at sound-of-ebay.com +43 650 930 00 61 http://www.sound-of-ebay.com/600.html Mailing Address THE SOUND OF EBAY FAVORITENSTRASSE 26/5, A-1040 VIENNA / AUSTRIA From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Jul 12 22:23:38 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 22:23:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807120846v760b67c6g5a2158c83cb575b8@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00807120822j284b62c3u21fa8b74e148e6e5@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807120827r43ba7884h41ac4540b336bd26@mail.gmail.com> <98f331e00807120840g5433830an6d3166b9459760d0@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807120843q52c6f39exdbe72085a6a3276b@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807120846v760b67c6g5a2158c83cb575b8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70807120953k231df6ddvfce09ed72a054fa4@mail.gmail.com> Dear prakash I wish there is a way to speak about the darker side of the moon while its shining part is seen as inspirational. If I speak truly about myself I see myself liberated in the least, but I try to open up the knots of my past and recent past. Not surprising that in the process i get sucked into the labyrinth of 'complexities'. Profoundly I don't see politics far from what is called Art even. I am trying. Left was part of my life in eighties in kashmir. But I was always disillusioned on many accounts. Not surprising that most of the so called kashmiri leftists joined BJP after migration in 1990. To begin with, Sheikh mohd Abudullah who invited these leftists to support and join his government after 1975 accord with Indira Gandhi but they refused. Similary I failed to understand why left opposed Rushdie on Satanic Verses issue, and similarly we don't understand why they isolated Taslima Nasreen. See, how they were clandestinely managing the land deal in Nandigram. I have never seen Left criticizing Dynasty politics in India except when there is election time. Their love for MF Hussain is actual but when I engaged a left cultural activist that do you explain Hussain sahib's present day ( shauq ) tendency to acquire red expensive cars when Tehalka was showing it all unambiguously. They really don't know how to speak openly about what is bourgeoisie now, they dont want to sit with a proletariat now. See the situation in Trade unions. Once there was comrade Parwana who sacrificed his life and career for a cause, but now it is about what car a Bank union Secretary gets on his retirement. The list is long. The hidden bourgeoisie is finally out in then open. That is why they don't think twice before pulling out the support, as Shuddha pointed out that what if this action leads to the return of BJP in the centre and Narender Modi as our new Home Minister. And how to explain their so called love for Muslims. UPA in the first place took shape to keep Hindutva out of power. But now… The congress always hated Left more than Jana Sanga, and we really know it now, after a congresswalla called Narsimha Rao Govt help the demolition of Babri mosque, but they had no choice to come close they will do it again without working out the irritants. But if left was so serious about muslims they should explain their position in Afganistan when great USSR raped that nation. government of India supported that bloody game too In short, left is like a religion, which is struggling for its international image while grappling with the popular. It has never done a re-reading of its own text which is akin to religion. And left intellectuals who cared to think different from the straight jacketed text were quickly ousted out. It is hardly democratic. We need Left but it has to learn to take more criticism than it is used to. Having said all this, the basic question still remains- what is the way out if we continue to march along with our present day styles of living without the sufficient stocks of energy to fill our rapidly emptying barrels. If we forget about the nuclear what is alternative, where is the solar energy, if we want to live as happily as people live in the West. I guess there is an common understanding of what we call a standard living in the West and if that is the measuring rod for a developing nation what we need to do? love is On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 9:16 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > > elitist ides of knowledge > > I meant ideas > > On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 9:13 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > wrote: > > And what I meant to say is that I have a problem with not only getting > > personal in arguments, but more than that, this club mentality, this > > holier-than-thou approach that if you are a journalist you would know > > this, and you are a researcher you would know more of this, and if you > > are a housewife you must be an ignoramus because you don't have access > > to channels of information. In the age of the internet I don't > > subscribe to such elitist ides of knowledge. > > > > On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 9:10 PM, prakash ray wrote: > >> Dear Shivam, > >> > >> What I meant to say that since you are a reporter, you could have collectted > >> more on that since as reporter you have certain avenues and previledges, and > >> through your contacts and fellow-reporters. No. I am not anything, just a > >> member on this list. I had joined DD in 2003, later same year UNI. also > >> worked with India TV for sometime when Tarun Tejpal, Editor-in-Chief, was > >> associated with the chhanel alongwith Ms Menaka Gandhi, a BJP MP. You are > >> right that a non-reporter can do research. I also left media to be a > >> researcher. > >> > >> Prakash > >> > >> On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 8:57 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > >> wrote: > >> > >>> > Shivam could have researched on the matter since he is a reporter > >>> > himself. > >>> > >>> I wonder why a non-reporter can't do research. And if you know these > >>> things, are you a supra-editor or something???? > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 8:52 PM, prakash ray wrote: > >>> > > >>> > Dear all, > >>> > > >>> > It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' ones (read Shuddha, > >>> > Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the current debate > >>> over > >>> > the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, have 'always' > >>> > attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do not want to blame them > >>> for > >>> > their political positions, but I would accuse them for their > >>> > shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive contribution or > >>> > position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves 'liberated' since we > >>> > write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that our 'false > >>> > sense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our handsome salaries and > >>> > convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that a sin. > >>> However, > >>> > I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' approach. > >>> > > >>> > Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not articulate > >>> their > >>> > position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear sacredness. Their > >>> belief > >>> > of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based on a report > >>> > appeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that they believe what the > >>> > TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or economic > >>> policies > >>> > etc. Shivam could have researched on the matter since he is a reporter > >>> > himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support extended by the > >>> > Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting interviewed in > >>> > the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every > >>> > newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes interviews of the > >>> > politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of the Salwa Judum > >>> > infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at regular > >>> intervention > >>> > and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R Narayanan on > >>> > the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in place of the > >>> > customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, the > >>> right-wingers > >>> > get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about the moderator or > >>> > Shuddha himself? > >>> > > >>> > I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to the US > >>> > administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and > >>> > continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I do not find > >>> any > >>> > fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact that the US > >>> and > >>> > Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do not think the > >>> > readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault if someone > >>> sees > >>> > the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I consider the > >>> > nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on the poor and > >>> > less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation against the > >>> > policies and politics of the US. > >>> > > >>> > Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. > >>> > > >>> > Let me ask some simple questions: > >>> > > >>> > Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the Congress? > >>> > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr Singh could go ahead with > >>> > the Deal? > >>> > Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit in elections > >>> if > >>> > the Govt falls? > >>> > Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left oppose or support > >>> > everything only on the basis of the position taken by the BJP? > >>> > Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology of the 'clash of > >>> > civilizations'? > >>> > > >>> > Regards, > >>> > Prakash > >>> > _________________________________________ > >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Prakash K Ray > >> 225, Sutlej, JNU, New Delhi-110067. > >> cinemela.blogspot.com > >> (0) 9873313315 > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > -- > > /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > > > > > > -- > /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From mail at shivamvij.com Sat Jul 12 23:04:18 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 23:04:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Indian Kashmir In-Reply-To: <430165.49542.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <430165.49542.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807121034y1a80823n469aad76329ce415@mail.gmail.com> Dear Khurram, Thanks for posting this. The Delhi media's conspiracy of silence around human rights violations in Kashmir, as also the intimidation of those like you who seek to defend human rights, sadly seems reflected on this list - this list seems to endlessly list the sentiments of some and is silent on an article like this. best shivam On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Khurram Parvez wrote: > > A PDF of the article with photos can be found on the Tribunal website at: > > http://kashmirprocess.org/news/20080708_MassGravesKashmirChatterji.pdf > > > > Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Indian Kashmir > > Etala'at, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar, 09 July 2008 > > http://etalaat.com/english/Dimensions/1531.html > > > > > > Dirt, rubble, thick grass, hillside and flatland, crowded with graves. > Signifiers of military and paramilitary terror, masked from the world. > Constructed by institutions of state to conceal massacre. Placed next > to homes, fields, schools, an army practise range. Unknown, unmarked. > Over 940 graves in a segment of Baramulla district alone. Some > containing more than one cadaver. Dug by locals, coerced by the police, > on village land. Bodies dragged through the night, some tortured, > burnt, desecrated. Circulating mythology claims these graves uniformly > house 'foreign militants'. Exhumation and identification have not > occurred in most cases. When undertaken, in sizable instances, records > prove the dead to be local people, ordinary citizens, killed in fake > encounters. In instances where bodies have been identified as local, > non-militant and militant, it demystifies state rhetoric that rumours > these persons to be 'foreign militants', propagating misrepresentation > that the demand for self-determination is prevailingly external. > Mourned, cared for, by locals, as 'farz'/duty, as part of an > obligation, stated repeatedly, to 'azadi'. 'Azadi'/freedom to determine > self and future. > > > > On 18 and 20 June, the International People's Tribunal on Human Rights > and Justice in Indian-administered Kashmir ('Tribunal', convened in > April 2008, www.kashmirprocess.org) visited Baramulla and Kupwara > district to conduct ongoing fact-finding and verification related to > mass graves at the behest of local communities. The team comprised of > Tribunal Conveners Advocate Parvez Imroz and myself, a staff member, > and camera crew. > > > > On 18 June, we visited Raja Mohalla in Uri, Baramulla district, 110 > kilometres from Srinagar, where 22 graves were constructed between > 1996-1997. Then to Quazipora, where 13 bodies were stated as buried in > seven graves in 1991. Then we travelled to Chehal, Bimyar village, Uri, > holding 235 graves. We re-met Atta Mohammad, gravedigger and caretaker > at Chehal, who testified that these bodies, brought by the police, > primarily after dark, were buried between 2002-2006. Atta Mohammad said > that the bodies appear in his nightmares, each in graphic, gruesome > detail. Terrorised by the task forced upon him, his nights are bereft > of sleep. Then we travelled to Mir Mohalla, Kichama, Sheeri, to the > main graveyard with 105 graves, stated to hold about 225-250 bodies, > buried between 1994-2003, and a smaller graveyard, with nine graves, > adjacent to a sign proclaiming it a 'Model Village'. > > > > On 20 June, we visited the northern district of Kupwara. On the way we > witnessed army convoys, including one of 21+ vehicles. Created in 1979 > through the forking of Baramulla district, approximately 5,000 feet > above sea level, Kupwara borders the Line-of-Control to the north and > west. Between Shamsbari and Pirpanchal mountain ranges, it is one of > the most heavily militarised zones, about 95 kilometres from Srinagar. > Kupwara houses six army camps, as military and paramilitary forces > occupy significant land. Seven interrogation centres have been > operational with police stations functioning as additional > interrogation cells. In Hundwara town, a watchtower surveils and > regulates movement. > > > > In Kupwara, we visited Trehgam village, holding 85-100 graves, 24 of > which are identified, and spoke with community members. Trehgam was > home to Maqbool Bhat (b. 1938), founding figure of the Jammu Kashmir > National Liberation Front. Acknowledged as Shaheed-e-Kashmir, Bhat is > labelled a 'terrorist' by certain segments of India. He sought to unite > the territories of the former princely state of Jammu and Kashmir into > a secular, sovereign, democratic state. Bhat was sentenced to death by > the Supreme Court of India and hanged in Tihar jail in New Delhi on 11 > February 1984. Maqbool Bhat's nephew, Parvaiz Ahmad Bhat, reminded us > that Habibullah Bhat, Bhat's brother, was the first case of enforced > disappearance before 1989. > > > > After Trehgam, we reached Regipora around 3 pm and stopped for lunch. > There, two persons introduced themselves as Special Branch Kashmir > (SBK) and Counter Intelligence Kashmir (CIK) personnel, and questioned > the Tribunal staff member about our visit. After responding, we > proceeded to the 'martyrs' graveyard' holding 258 graves, constructed > in 1995. This burial ground is meticulously ordered, each grave > numbered. The body of a 20-25 year old youth was buried in the first > week of June, reportedly killed in an encounter in Bamhama village. > > > > We stopped at a roadside tea stall to speak with local people about the > graves. Four intelligence personnel questioned us, asking we disclose > information about those we had visited. Soon, four additional SBK and > CIK personnel joined the questioning. Other intelligence personnel made > phone calls. By then, about 12 intelligence personnel gathered. > Following further questioning we proceeded toward Srinagar. A car > followed at a distance. > > > > We detoured to Sadipora, Kandi, where locals stated that around 20 > bodies were buried. The graveyard, overrun with wild flowers, is part > of a larger ground used during festivals, including Id. Two of four > bodies, killed in a fake encounter on 29 April 2007, were exhumed, > identified as locals, contrary to police records stating them to be > 'Pakistani terrorists'. Saidipora holds Riyaz Ahmad Bhat's grave, > killed in the encounter, age 19. Police records, per the First > Information Report, declared him a 'Pakistani terrorist'. Riyaz Bhat > was identified by Javeed Ahmed, his brother, as a resident of > Kalashpora, Srinagar, based on police photographs from the time of > death. Ahmed travelled with the Tribunal to take us to his brother's > grave. On his knees Javeed attempted to clear the thick brush. Later, > in Srinagar, he testified that Bhat had never been involved in > militancy. Javeed spoke of grieving, of imprisonment and beatings at > the police station. He asked how he could have saved his brother from > death. > > > > After Sadiapora, we were stopped at Shangargund, Sopore, at about 6.40 > pm, by three persons in civilian clothing. They forcibly boarded the > car. We were ordered to the Sopore Police Station. There we were asked > to detail our identity, employment, the purpose of the visit, and to > hand over tapes which, the police alleged, contained 'dangerous' and > 'objectionable' material. We stated that the Tribunal, a public > process, was undertaking its work peaceably, lawfully, with informed > consent, and that we had not visited restricted areas. We stated that > the police had no lawful reason to seize the tapes. We were detained > for 16 minutes. After several calls to senior police persons, we were > released. A red Indica car followed us to Sangrama. At Srinagar, > Intelligence personnel were stationed at my hotel. On 21 June, I was > followed from the hotel to the Tribunal's office in Lal Chowk, where > about 8 personnel were stationed the entire day questioning anyone who > entered or left the office. > > > > My mother, residing in Calcutta, received a query regarding my > whereabouts from the District Magistrate's Office. I was followed to > the Srinagar airport on 22 June, and questioned, asked if I possessed > dual citizenship. I do not. I am a citizen of India and a permanent > resident of the United States. On 24 June, I arrived in Bhubaneswar to > submit a statement to the Commission of Inquiry on the Kandhamal > violence against Christians in 2007 in Orissa. There too, Central > Intelligence officials persistently inquired after me. In April, after > announcing the Tribunal, I was stopped and harassed at Immigration > while leaving India for the United States, and again on my re-entry in > June. > > > > The targeting of the Tribunal has not abated since the Amarnath issue > erupted around 23 June. The volatile proposal to transfer 800 kanals of > land to the Shrine Board, revoked on 01 July, was supported by the > Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party and Hindu militant Shiv Sena. > Despite the Sena's recent call to Hindus to form suicide squads, it > faces no sanctions from the state. Kashmiris of diverse ethnicities and > religions dissented the Amarnath land transfer. Community leaders in > Kashmir explained that their stance against the proposal is not in > dissent to Hindu pilgrims, but a repressive state. During the Amarnath > land transfer protests, civil disobedience paralleled that of 1989, > amid severe repression. On 30 June, in curfew-like conditions, we met > with two families in Srinagar who narrated that the police had shot > dead their sons. At one place, in the old city, while the men took the > body for burial late at night, the police returned and destroyed > property and molested women. > > > > On 30 June, at about 10:10 pm, Parvez Imroz and his family were > attacked at home by state forces, who fired three shots and hurled a > grenade while exiting when family and community interrupted their > attempts. Neighbours reported seeing one large armoured vehicle and two > Gypsy cars, and men in CRPF (Central Reserve Police Force) and SOG > (Special Operations Group) uniforms. This murder attempt is an > escalation in the forms of state-led intimidation and targeting aimed > at Advocate Imroz. It is an attempt to make the Tribunal vulnerable and > instil fear in us in an attempt to stop this process. > > > > On 01 July, we met at Khurram Parvez's home before addressing a press > conference. Outside, jeeps with plainclothes men continued their > observation, accompanied by a jeep with armed men in uniform. Later, > Advocate Imroz, Khurram Parvez, Advocate Mihir Desai, and I went to the > police station to lodge a First Information Report. We were not > permitted to do so. For security reasons, Parvez Imroz is not staying > at home. Khurram Parvez remains under surveillance. I must allow for > distance before revisiting the graves. On 04 July, sitting on a plane > at Delhi International Airport, waiting to take-off, I received a phone > call on my India mobile, caller 'Unknown': "Madam, we know you're > leaving. Think wisely before coming back". > > > > Orders to unnerve the leadership of the International Tribunal by the > Government of India's intelligence and security administration appear > to be generated at the highest levels. The general policy of > surveillance should not be used as a pretext to create obstacles for > our work. As India argues for a seat on the United Nations Security > Council, the Government of India, as 'Frontline Defenders' stated in > their recent alert supporting the Tribunal, must adhere to its own > repeated commitment to peace in Kashmir and international conventions > and laws. It must uphold democratic governance and safeguard human > rights. > > > > Advocate Imroz, Khurram Parvez, other members of the Tribunal team, > have long experienced injustices for their extraordinary work as human > rights defenders. A lauded human rights lawyer, Parvez Imroz has > survived two, now three, assassination attempts, the first from > militants. Since 2005, his passport has been denied. Khurram Parvez > lost his leg in a landmine incident. Gautam Navlakha and Zahir-Ud-Din > have been intimidated and threatened, as has Mihir Desai, in their > larger work. It is noteworthy that the Government of India is adding > intimidation to the death and rape threats delivered me by Hindu > extremists for human rights work. > > > > The work of the Tribunal is > an act of conscience and accountability, fraught with the charge of > complex and violent histories. Its mandate, in documenting Kashmir's > present, is to chronicle the fabric of militarisation, status of human > rights, and legal, political, militaristic 'states of exception'. The > Tribunal's work will continue through the coming months. We have > received extensive solidarity from civil society; victims/survivors, at > street corners, from villagers, ordinary citizens, those committed to > justice. Each life in Kashmir has a story to tell. The subjugation of > civil society has produced magnificent ethical resistance. The state > cannot combat every individual. > > > > Nearly two decades of genocidal violence record 70,000+ dead, 8,000+ > disappeared, 60,000+ tortured, 50,000+ orphaned, incalculable > sexualised and gendered violence, a very high rate of people with > suicidal behaviours; hundreds of thousands displaced; violations of > promises, laws, conventions, agreements, treaties; mass graves; mile > upon mile of barbed wire; fear, suppression of varied demands for > participation to determine Kashmir's future, spirals of violence, > protracted silence. Last year, Kashmir's only hospital with services > for mental health received 68,000 patients. Profound social, economic, > and psychological consequences, and an intense isolation have impacted > private, public, and everyday life. It has generated brutal resistance > on the part of groups that have engaged in violent militancy. > Repressions of struggles for self-determination and international > policies/politics have yielded severe consequences, creating a juncture > at which the failure of governance intersects with a culture of grief. > > > > Torture survivors, non-militants and former militants, that I met with > testified to the sadism of the forces. Reportedly, a man, hung upside > down, had petrol injected through his anus. Water-boarding, mutilation, > rape of women, children, and men, starvation, psychological torture. > Brutalised, 'healed', to be brutalised again. An eagle tattoo on the > arm of a man was reportedly identified by an army officer as a symbol > of Pakistan-held Azad Kashmir, even as the man clarified the tattoo was > from his childhood. The skin containing it was burned. The officer, the > man stated, said: "When you look at this, think of azadi". A mother, > reportedly asked to watch her daughter's rape by army personnel, > pleaded for her release. They refused. She pleaded that she could not > watch, asking to be sent out of the room or be killed. We were told > that the soldier pointed a gun to her forehead, stating he would grant > her wish, and shot her before they proceeded to rape the daughter. We > also spoke with persons violated by militants. One man stated that > people's experiences with the reprehensible atrocities of militancy do > not imply the abdication of their desire for self-determination. This, > he stated, is a mistake the state makes, conflating militancy with the > intent for self-determination. He clarified that neither is > self-determination an indication of allegiance to Pakistan, largely to > the contrary. > > > > The continuing and daunting presence of military and paramilitary > forces, increased and sophisticated surveillance, merges with pervasive > and immense suffering and anger of people in villages, towns, and > cities across Kashmir. Parallel to the presence of 500,000 troops and > commitment to nuclearisation, official figures state that there are > about 450 militants in Kashmir and that demilitarisation is underway. > In March 2007, three government committees on demilitarisation resolved > that the 'low intensity war continues', placing in limbo troop > reduction and the repealment of draconian laws -- the Armed Forces > Special Powers Act, 1958, imposed in Jammu and Kashmir in December > 1990, and the Disturbed Areas Act, 1976, enacted in 1992. Local > realities reflect that these laws and the military seek to control the > general population with impunity. > > > > Kashmir is increasingly defined as a 'post-conflict' zone. > 'Post-conflict' is not the propagation of tourism toward an overt > display of nationalism. Post-conflict is a space in which to heal, > reflect, and enable civil society participation in determining peace > and justice. The graves speak to those that listen. Those haunted by > history are called to remember. > > > > (Dr. > Angana Chatterji is associate professor of Social and Cultural > Anthropology at the California Institute of Integral Studies and > co-convener of the International People's Tribunal in Kashmir.) > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ From pankhuree at hotmail.com Sun Jul 13 02:53:28 2008 From: pankhuree at hotmail.com (pankhuree dube) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:23:28 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1256?q?Fwd=3A_FACT_Exhibition_at_IHC=FE?= Message-ID: Dear Mr. Sengupta,Thank you for your incisive critique of the IHC exhibit. I look forward to reading your contributions to this listserv and I am not disappointed by your comments on this discussion. I am curious to know why you think the Naxalite insurgency intensified in tribal areas after adivasis achieved their demands for statehood in Jharkhand and Chhattisgarh. I wonder if the Naxalite movement is tapping into a larger vein of discontent in rural India. Although the economic success of urban centers receives a lot of coverage in the Indian mainstream media, the continuing oppression of tribals, landless laborers and peasants tends to be ignored, or covered only intermittently. I see the Naxalite movement as merely one expression of the intensification of the rural-urban divide wherein urban centers continue to extract resources from the countryside, ignore rural development needs, and de-humanize those who face crushing poverty in these areas. Scholars like historian Ramachandra Guha and observers from the Asian Centre for Human Rights maintain that the adivasis are merely the foot-soldiers of the Naxalite movement which is led by a Commander Kosa based in Andhra Pradesh. I agree with your lack of sympathy for the violence employed by the Naxals. My interest is in the political solutions innovated by the adivasis themselves. I think the communitarian politics and political philosophy of the adivasis gets ignored by journalists who merely talk of the tribals as guerrillas or victims. In this regard, Mr. Kaul made an intriguing comment about the Dalits engaging in peaceful 'remedial measures' from within the political system, i.e through the Bahujan Samaj Party. But one criticism directed at the BSP is that they have begun to ignore the demands of the majority of Dalits, the rural poor. Since the adivasis in central India are generally forest-dependent and non-urban people, a BSP-type political solution may not be as attainable or even suitable for them. Organizing a political party may be easier for urban groups and also, less appropriate for a group (such as the tribals) that perceives the nation-state as an illegitimate, occupying force which sanctions oppression. So, my question for you and others is: What are the political solutions--which you may know of--being employed by adivasis, for adivasis? Such solutions get lost in all the talk of Naxalism and the distinction between adivasi activists and Maoists gets blurred by the mainstream media. I hope you can make sense of my jumble of thoughts! Pankhuree _________________________________________________________________ It’s a talkathon – but it’s not just talk. http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_JustTalk From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Jul 13 03:41:30 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 03:41:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <98f331e00807120822j284b62c3u21fa8b74e148e6e5@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00807120822j284b62c3u21fa8b74e148e6e5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <89CE0333-0DC1-45C3-BB4B-0CB0D60D416E@sarai.net> Dear Prakash, Thank you for your mail. I fail to realize how an argument against the myopia of the CPI(M) and the CPI have to be automatically read as 'anti-left' arguments. The only reason why anyone gives credence to the idea that the CPI or the CPI(M) represent in any way, the 'Left', is because, well, they say so themselves. It is not unlike the BJP declaring that it's ideology is 'Gandhian Socialism' (which it says it is). I have no quarrel with these acts of self naming (however delusionary they may be, provided that those who name themselves thus do not arrogate to themselves the right to control the naming of all others). If the CPI (M) thinks that it is the Left, it is welcome to that assumption, but I cannot understand how this gives CPI(M) activists and sympathizers the right to decide that any criticism of the CPI(M) and/or its allies automatically amounts to a criticism of the Left. Actually, it amounts to nothing other than a criticism of the CPI(M) and/or its allies. The Left is not a term that can either be invoked or and exhausted by the CPI(M)'s episodic lapses. I have said this before. I consider myself to be on the left, and I have never for a moment doubted that whenever, either the kind of thinking that I represent, or the kind of thinking that anyone else on the left represents is in error, it should be criticised. That act of criticism is not, and should not be vulgarized as 'anti-left' thinking merely because it happens to be directed at organizations, individuals or entities that describe themselves as being on the 'left'. If you criticise me, I can fault you on many grounds that have to do with either the intent or manner of your criticism, but to criticise your criticism of my thoughts on the grounds of 'Anti- Leftism' would be just as absurd as your attempt to debunk my criticism of the CPI(M) on the grounds of 'Anti-Leftism'. I hope I have made myself clear. Please be sharper and more coherent when you are being critical. It will improve the grounds of our debate. I do not recognize or understand who is being pointed towards in the description "some of us who consider ourselves 'liberated', since we write, read or lecture, and we only do that'. Who is this 'us'. I have to do many things other than write, read and lecture, and I do wish I had a handsome salary. Can you (Prakash) arrange one for me. Even if that were to be the case, the criticism of an argument on the basis of the salary of the bearer, or professional pre-occupations of the protagonist of an argument is actually not an argument. I could criticise several well known activists of the CPI(M) on the basis of their salaries, or of the fact that they are part of the academic establishment, or on the choice of their after dinner pre- occupations, or their good or bad taste in Whisky, but I abstain from doing so, because I think that bringing such things into an argument about political choices is not only in bad taste (which it is) but is also totally irrelevant. I do not see a rigorous position against a nuclear military policy on the part of the Government of India as the mouthing of a "anti- everything nuclear sacredness". it is not anti-everything, it is simply, anti-nuclear weapons. Since when are nuclear weapons - "everything"? Or, are they "everything" these days in the CPI(M)? And what is "sacred" in questioning a nuclear weapons policy?It seems, on the contrary, to me, that a deliberate reticence about the desirability of a nuclear weapons programme that the CPI(M) and several others so called 'Left' such as the CPI are currently exhibiting, (while blustering about 'strategic autonomy' ) is more symptomatic of their anxiety that the sacredness of a nuclear weapons policy remain pristine and untouched, than it is of anything else. I really wonder who can be correctly described as being 'holier than thou' here. Or am I really missing something? is it just that the that the nuclear policy automatically becomes sacrosant, the very moment when the gentlemen and ladies on the so called 'Left' rush to protect our nuclear assets and associated sacred secrets from the International Atomic Energy Agency ? I have never, at any point, said that I support the Indo-US nuclear deal. I have infact been writing about the Indo-US nuclear deal for the past several months on this list, and there has not been a single posting where I have ever said that such a deal should be signed, or that I support the signing of such a deal. I have only maintained that the grounds on which the CPI(M) and the CPI are attacking the deal are hollow, since they are based on the argument of 'strategic autonomy' which can only translate as a continuing commitment to a pro 'Nuclear Weapons' policy vis a vis India. This means that the presence of these very Left leaders in demonstrations against the Nuclear Tests that were part of Pokrhan II were exercises in hypocrisy and subterfuge. There is no doubt at all in my mind that at this moment, there is a perfect synchronicity between the positions of the BJP and the CPI(M) on this issue. If the CPI(M) had urged the UPA government to sign the NPT and the CTBT and to give up the obscenity of the Indian nuclear weapons programme, or even opposed it militantly, I would have been able to see the difference between the BJP and the CPI(M) positions on this matter. Since this is not the case, I fail to see where the difference lies. I find it pathetic when those who have the audacity to call themselves Communist should support a nation-state's right to posess and deploy nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction. It is in fact a measure of the idiocy and sad state of political bankruptcy of these so called Communist parties. They, and their cadres, and their time serving sympathizers have forgotten, or they have chosen to ignore that the difference between Communists and Social Democracy lay in its origin, precisely on the matter of supporting or opposing the belligerence of nation states during and in the wake of the first world war. By voting to protect the Indian nation state's nuclear arsenal, (even if this is done in the name of opposing US Imperialism) the CPI(M) and the CPI and their client parties in the Indian parliament have behaved in a manner identical to those Social Democrats, who during the first world war, voted in favour of 'War Credits' to their respective bourgeouise governments (in the name of opposing French, or German, or Czarist Russian, or British Imperialism). They have, by placing their nation state over and above the class interests of the labouring people of the world, crossed over to the camp of the enemy. They have become, in other words, parties of reaction. And it should come as no surprise to anyone that they will vote in co-ordination with the far right. This is only a sign of things to come. Patriotism, is and remains, the last refuge of scoundrels, everywhere. regards. Shuddha On 12-Jul-08, at 8:52 PM, prakash ray wrote: > Dear all, > > It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' ones (read > Shuddha, > Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the current > debate over > the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, have > 'always' > attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do not want to blame > them for > their political positions, but I would accuse them for their > shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive > contribution or > position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves 'liberated' > since we > write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that our > 'false > sense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our handsome salaries and > convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that a sin. > However, > I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' approach. > > Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not > articulate their > position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear sacredness. Their > belief > of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based on a > report > appeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that they believe > what the > TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or economic > policies > etc. Shivam could have researched on the matter since he is a reporter > himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support extended > by the > Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting > interviewed in > the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every > newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes interviews of > the > politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of the Salwa > Judum > infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at regular > intervention > and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R > Narayanan on > the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in place of the > customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, the > right-wingers > get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about the > moderator or > Shuddha himself? > > I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to the US > administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and > continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I do not > find any > fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact that > the US and > Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do not > think the > readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault if > someone sees > the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I consider the > nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on the > poor and > less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation > against the > policies and politics of the US. > > Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. > > Let me ask some simple questions: > > Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the Congress? > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr Singh could go > ahead with > the Deal? > Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit in > elections if > the Govt falls? > Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left oppose or > support > everything only on the basis of the position taken by the BJP? > Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology of the > 'clash of > civilizations'? > > Regards, > Prakash > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Jul 13 03:58:15 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 03:58:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to Our Humid Weimar Message-ID: <0781A8D2-5F81-432D-8DA7-4E9A28C0C081@sarai.net> Dear all, I rest my case. Please read the two articles from the Indian Express - below. When I hear the so-called 'Left' and 'Right' march in unison, I hear the distant thud of jackboots in the night. cheers (?) Shuddha --------------------------- CPM speaks what was its unspeakable: we can support BJP-led coalition if... Dipankar De Sarkar Posted online: Sunday, July 13, 2008 at 0136 hrs Print Email It’s communal...doesn’t mean all the time BJP did mischief: Biman http://www.indianexpress.com/sunday/story/334897.html London, July 12:Biman Bose, CPM Politburo member and Left Front chairman in West Bengal, has said that the Left can consider supporting a BJP-led coalition if that party sheds what he called its “communal agenda”. In surprising remarks made in London on Thursday, he also said the Left may have made “a mistake” by not withdrawing its support from the Congress-led United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government earlier and accused the Congress of trying to “bail out” the US Republican Party through the nuclear deal ahead of US elections. Bose made his startling remarks while briefing a select group of British diplomats, bankers, and government and Commonwealth officials over dinner in London Thursday night. IANS was the only Indian media group invited to this meeting. The dinner was hosted by industrialist Shishir Bajoria of the Kolkata- based Bajoria Group. Bose, who is general secretary of the West Bengal CPM, was asked pointedly if there were any circumstances under which the Left would support a Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP)-led coalition in New Delhi. “The Left never subscribed to the communal politics of the BJP. That does not mean the BJP all the time did only mischief. It does not mean that. But the BJP could not leave its communal agenda,” Bose said. “If it happens that the BJP is opposing communal politics, then the real stand will be clarified. Whether the BJP is more dangerous than the Congress or the other way round depends on some distinct political twists and turns, and parties’ principles can be judged only in those twists and turns, not in normal conditions...So wait for some days — or some years — to see those twists and turns. If the BJP moves with the same politics with which they are moving today, the question (of supporting the BJP) doesn’t arise at all,” he added. Asked if the CPM wanted the BJP to support a common minimum programme, Bose stressed the importance of secularism. “They are to cut religion and politics. They mix up religion and politics. Religion should remain in temples, churches and mosques or in gurdwaras. That should be the private belief of the person concerned. Religion should not be mixed up with politics,” he replied. Earlier, speaking exclusively to IANS, Bose said that when it came to the post-election scenario, the Left would support a Congress-led coalition “if the Congress has learnt their lesson”. “They have to bring down inflation, and introduce a universal public distribution system, and universal and free health and education.” Bose, in a dhoti in a roomful of men and women in business suits, hinted at a larger,global reason behind the Left’s withdrawal of support to the government over the India-US nuclear deal. “The (popularity) rating of George W Bush in the US has gone down to 28 percent. This has never happened before in history. The lowest used to be 38 percent - now it is 28 percent,” he told his audience. “In that political scenario, the government of India is going to bail out George W. Bush by signing the nuclear agreement,” he said, adding that nuclear energy would account for only eight percent of India’s energy needs. Asked why the Left had not withdrawn support earlier, Bose replied: “There you might blame the Left parties.” ---------------------- RSS lends Karat a shoulder to cry on Suman K Jha Posted online: Sunday, July 13, 2008 at 0131 hrs Print Email New Delhi, July 12:As the CPM tries to put up a brave face battling contradictions within on its vote against the Congress-led Government over the Indo-US nuclear deal, it has found support from none other than the Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh. Turning a sympathetic observer, the editorial in the latest issue of RSS mouthpiece Organiser has put up a stout defence of Comrade Prakash Karat, something that would probably make even CPM organ People’s Democracy blush. “The Congress has deliberately created the situation, practically pushing the Left to the brink...The CPM general secretary Prakash Karat has reasons to be fuming. He has accused the Congress of humiliating his party and betraying its trust. He is right. The Congress didn’t extend the courtesy of showing the Left the original draft of the deal...Clearly, the government meant to slight the Left...” says the editorial. “The Left has been foolish enough in extending its support to the Congress in the name of keeping the BJP out to run the government, almost like a single party...There was a Common Minimum Programme. The Indo-US nuclear deal was not a party of it. For any political observer the Congress hara-kiri doesn’t make sense. Yet it has challenged Karat and declared itself a single-agenda government. Has the Left been so nagging for Sonia as to prefer this plight to their assured parliamentary security,” says the editorial. In what appears to be an open exhortation to the Left to revisit its past when it shared the anti-Congress platform with the BJP-Bharatiya Jana Sangh, the editorial adds: “There is no meeting ground between the Left and the Congress but for their mutual antipathy for the BJP. In the fact the Left has tied itself in knots by following a policy of political untouchability and it was desperate to distance itself from the failed UPA sufficiently early to face the electorate in the general election.” If one thought that the Left is in for huge reverses in the forthcoming elections, the RSS journal has an explanation ready: “The poor record of the Manmohan Singh, it is feared, is bound to have an impact on the electoral fortunes of the Left.” When contacted, former Sangh spokesperson Ram Madhav said that “the RSS would like all political parties to take a stand against the nuclear deal in its present form.” Exactly what Comrade Karat says. _________________________ Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Jul 13 08:57:16 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 23:27:16 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to Our Humid Weimar References: <0781A8D2-5F81-432D-8DA7-4E9A28C0C081@sarai.net> Message-ID: <008f01c8e498$6281e120$c3ffbd48@taraprakash> CPIM is a sinking ship. How far their Biman can sink is a million dollar question. Perhaps sky is the limit. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" To: "sarai list" Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 6:28 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to Our Humid Weimar > Dear all, > > I rest my case. > > Please read the two articles from the Indian Express - below. > When I hear the so-called 'Left' and 'Right' march in unison, I hear > the distant thud of jackboots in the night. > > cheers (?) > > Shuddha > --------------------------- > > CPM speaks what was its unspeakable: we can support BJP-led coalition > if... > Dipankar De Sarkar > Posted online: Sunday, July 13, 2008 at 0136 hrs Print Email > It’s communal...doesn’t mean all the time BJP did mischief: Biman > http://www.indianexpress.com/sunday/story/334897.html > > London, July 12:Biman Bose, CPM Politburo member and Left Front > chairman in West Bengal, has said that the Left can consider > supporting a BJP-led coalition if that party sheds what he called its > “communal agenda”. > > In surprising remarks made in London on Thursday, he also said the > Left may have made “a mistake” by not withdrawing its support from > the Congress-led United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government earlier > and accused the Congress of trying to “bail out” the US Republican > Party through the nuclear deal ahead of US elections. > > Bose made his startling remarks while briefing a select group of > British diplomats, bankers, and government and Commonwealth officials > over dinner in London Thursday night. > > IANS was the only Indian media group invited to this meeting. > > The dinner was hosted by industrialist Shishir Bajoria of the Kolkata- > based Bajoria Group. Bose, who is general secretary of the West > Bengal CPM, was asked pointedly if there were any circumstances under > which the Left would support a Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP)-led > coalition in New Delhi. > > “The Left never subscribed to the communal politics of the BJP. That > does not mean the BJP all the time did only mischief. It does not > mean that. But the BJP could not leave its communal agenda,” Bose said. > > “If it happens that the BJP is opposing communal politics, then the > real stand will be clarified. Whether the BJP is more dangerous than > the Congress or the other way round depends on some distinct > political twists and turns, and parties’ principles can be judged > only in those twists and turns, not in normal conditions...So wait > for some days — or some years — to see those twists and turns. If the > BJP moves with the same politics with which they are moving today, > the question (of supporting the BJP) doesn’t arise at all,” he added. > > Asked if the CPM wanted the BJP to support a common minimum > programme, Bose stressed the importance of secularism. “They are to > cut religion and politics. They mix up religion and politics. > Religion should remain in temples, churches and mosques or in > gurdwaras. That should be the private belief of the person concerned. > Religion should not be mixed up with politics,” he replied. > > Earlier, speaking exclusively to IANS, Bose said that when it came to > the post-election scenario, the Left would support a Congress-led > coalition “if the Congress has learnt their lesson”. “They have to > bring down inflation, and introduce a universal public distribution > system, and universal and free health and education.” > > Bose, in a dhoti in a roomful of men and women in business suits, > hinted at a larger,global reason behind the Left’s withdrawal of > support to the government over the India-US nuclear deal. “The > (popularity) rating of George W Bush in the US has gone down to 28 > percent. This has never happened before in history. The lowest used > to be 38 percent - now it is 28 percent,” he told his audience. “In > that political scenario, the government of India is going to bail out > George W. Bush by signing the nuclear agreement,” he said, adding > that nuclear energy would account for only eight percent of India’s > energy needs. > > Asked why the Left had not withdrawn support earlier, Bose replied: > “There you might blame the Left parties.” > > > ---------------------- > > > RSS lends Karat a shoulder to cry on > Suman K Jha > Posted online: Sunday, July 13, 2008 at 0131 hrs Print Email > > New Delhi, July 12:As the CPM tries to put up a brave face battling > contradictions within on its vote against the Congress-led Government > over the Indo-US nuclear deal, it has found support from none other > than the Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh. > > > Turning a sympathetic observer, the editorial in the latest issue of > RSS mouthpiece Organiser has put up a stout defence of Comrade > Prakash Karat, something that would probably make even CPM organ > People’s Democracy blush. > > “The Congress has deliberately created the situation, practically > pushing the Left to the brink...The CPM general secretary Prakash > Karat has reasons to be fuming. He has accused the Congress of > humiliating his party and betraying its trust. He is right. The > Congress didn’t extend the courtesy of showing the Left the original > draft of the deal...Clearly, the government meant to slight the > Left...” says the editorial. > > “The Left has been foolish enough in extending its support to the > Congress in the name of keeping the BJP out to run the government, > almost like a single party...There was a Common Minimum Programme. > The Indo-US nuclear deal was not a party of it. For any political > observer the Congress hara-kiri doesn’t make sense. Yet it has > challenged Karat and declared itself a single-agenda government. Has > the Left been so nagging for Sonia as to prefer this plight to their > assured parliamentary security,” says the editorial. > > In what appears to be an open exhortation to the Left to revisit its > past when it shared the anti-Congress platform with the BJP-Bharatiya > Jana Sangh, the editorial adds: “There is no meeting ground between > the Left and the Congress but for their mutual antipathy for the BJP. > In the fact the Left has tied itself in knots by following a policy > of political untouchability and it was desperate to distance itself > from the failed UPA sufficiently early to face the electorate in the > general election.” > > If one thought that the Left is in for huge reverses in the > forthcoming elections, the RSS journal has an explanation ready: “The > poor record of the Manmohan Singh, it is feared, is bound to have an > impact on the electoral fortunes of the Left.” When contacted, former > Sangh spokesperson Ram Madhav said that “the RSS would like all > political parties to take a stand against the nuclear deal in its > present form.” Exactly what Comrade Karat says. > > _________________________ > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From khurramparvez at yahoo.com Sat Jul 12 14:39:11 2008 From: khurramparvez at yahoo.com (Khurram Parvez) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 02:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] European Parliament Resolution on mass graves in Kashmir Message-ID: <601906.11975.qm@web31813.mail.mud.yahoo.com>   http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+TA+P6-TA-2008-0366+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN&language=EN   The European Parliament ,   –   having regard to the reports of its ad hoc delegation visits to Kashmir from 8 to 11 December 2003 and from 20 to 24 June 2004, –   having regard to its resolution of 18 May 2006 on the Annual Report on Human Rights in the World 2005 and the EU's policy on the matter(1) , –   having regard to its resolution of 24 May 2007 regarding the present situation and future prospects of Kashmir(2) , –   having regard to Rule 115(5) of its Rules of Procedure,   A.   whereas it is reported that hundreds of unidentified graves have been discovered since 2006 in Jammu and Kashmir and whereas at least 940 bodies have reportedly been found in 18 villages in the Uri district alone, B.   whereas the Srinagar-based Association of the Parents of Disappeared Persons (APDP) issued a report on 29 March 2008 indicating the existence of multiple graves in localities which, because of their proximity to the Line of Control with Pakistan, are not accessible without the specific permission of the security forces, C.   whereas, according to human rights organisations, it cannot be excluded that the grave sites contain the remains of victims of unlawful killings, enforced disappearances, torture and other abuses which have occurred in the context of armed conflict persisting in Jammu and Kashmir since 1989, D.   whereas estimates of the number of persons having gone missing since 1989 vary greatly, with associations of families of victims speaking of more than 8 000 and government authorities claiming fewer than 4 000, E.   whereas a state police report of 2006 confirmed the deaths in custody of 331 persons and 111 enforced disappearances following detention since 1989, F.   whereas allegations of human rights violations continue despite the Government of India's commitment in September 2005 not to tolerate human rights violations in Jammu and Kashmir any longer, G.   whereas Parvez Imroz, an award-winning human rights lawyer, president of the Jammu and Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society and founder of the APDP, survived an armed attack on 30 June 2008 in Srinagar by alleged security forces members, and whereas other members of the International Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice in Kashmir, which is being facilitated by the APDP, have reportedly been harassed,   1.  Calls on the Government of India urgently to ensure independent and impartial investigations are undertaken into all suspected sites of mass graves in Jammu and Kashmir and, as an immediate first step, to secure the grave sites in order to preserve the evidence; 2.  Calls on the Commission to offer financial and technical assistance to the Indian Government in the context of the Stability Instrument for such thorough investigations and possible further conflict resolution measures in Kashmir; 3.  Calls on the Member States to address the issue in the forthcoming dialogue on human rights, which is to take place in the second half of 2008; 4.  Expresses its concern for the safety of Parvez Imroz and other human rights activists who are investigating the unmarked graves and other allegations of human rights abuses in Jammu and Kashmir, and calls on the Indian authorities to ensure their protection and allow them to operate without fear of harassment and violence; urges the authorities to conduct a prompt and impartial investigation into the attack on Parvez Imroz, to make the results public and to bring those responsible to justice; 5.  Reiterates its call on the Indian Government and the state authorities to investigate all allegations of enforced disappearances; urges jurisdiction for all cases in which military, security or law-enforcement agents are suspected of being involved to be assigned to a civilian prosecutor's office, and a single public database of all persons who have gone missing and all bodies that have been recovered to be created; calls on Member States to facilitate and support all possible cooperation between the Indian and Pakistani Governments in relation to this investigation; 6.  Calls on the state authorities to ensure that all detention procedures meet the minimum requirements of international legal standards, proper treatment, registration and prosecution, prompt access to family members, to lawyers and to independent courts, as well as accountability for any violation of such procedures; 7.  Strongly condemns the unlawful killings, enforced disappearances, torture, rape and other human rights abuses which have occurred in Jammu and Kashmir since the beginning of the armed conflict in 1989; insists that the families of the victims be granted full reparation; 8.  Calls on all governments to ratify the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, to ratify and implement without reservation the UN Convention for the Protection of All Persons from Enforced Disappearance, and, pursuant to Articles 31 and 32 of that Convention, to declare that they recognise the competence of the Committee on Enforced Disappearances; 9.  Calls for full access to be granted to both sides of the Line of Control for the UN Special Rapporteurs under the terms of reference of the UN Special Procedures, notably the Special Rapporteurs on Torture and on Extrajudicial, Summary or Arbitrary Executions and the UN Working Group on Enforced or Involuntary Disappearances; 10.  Calls again on the Lok Sabha to amend the Human Rights Protection Act in order to allow the National Human Rights Commission to investigate independently allegations of abuse by members of the armed forces; 11.  Instructs its President to forward this resolution to the Council, the Commission, the government and parliament of India, the government and parliament of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, the government and parliament of the State of Jammu and Kashmir and the UN Secretary-General. (1) OJ C 297 E, 7.12.2006, p.341. (2) OJ C 102 E, 24.4.2008, p.468. From pankhuree at hotmail.com Sun Jul 13 02:23:43 2008 From: pankhuree at hotmail.com (pankhuree dube) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 20:53:43 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FACT Exhibition at IHC Message-ID: Dear Mr. Sengupta,Thank you for your incisive critique of the IHC exhibit. I look forward to reading your contributions to this listserv and I am not disappointed by your comments on this discussion. I am curious to know why you think the Naxalite insurgency intensified in tribal areas after adivasis achieved their demands for statehood in Jharkhand and Chhattisgarh. I wonder if the Naxalite movement is tapping into a larger vein of discontent in rural India. Although the economic success of urban centers receives a lot of coverage in the Indian mainstream media, the continuing oppression of tribals, landless laborers and peasants tends to be ignored, or covered only intermittently. I see the Naxalite movement as merely one expression of the intensification of the rural-urban divide wherein urban centers continue to extract resources from the countryside, ignore rural development needs, and de-humanize those who face crushing poverty in these areas. Scholars like historian Ramachandra Guha and observers from the Asian Centre for Human Rights maintain that the adivasis are merely the foot-soldiers of the Naxalite movement which is led by a Commander Kosa based in Andhra Pradesh. I agree with your lack of sympathy for the violence employed by the Naxals. My interest is in the political solutions innovated by the adivasis themselves. I think the communitarian politics and political philosophy of the adivasis gets ignored by journalists who merely talk of the tribals as guerrillas or victims. In this regard, Mr. Kaul made an intriguing comment about the Dalits engaging in peaceful 'remedial measures' from within the political system, i.e through the Bahujan Samaj Party. But one criticism directed at the BSP is that they have begun to ignore the demands of the majority of Dalits, the rural poor. Since the adivasis in central India are generally forest-dependent and non-urban people, a BSP-type political solution may not be as attainable or even suitable for them. Organizing a political party may be easier for urban groups and also, less appropriate for a group (such as the tribals) that perceives the nation-state as an illegitimate, occupying force which sanctions oppression. So, my question for you and others is: What are the political solutions--which you may know of--being employed by adivasis, for adivasis? I hope you can make sense of my jumble of thoughts!> From: shuddha at sarai.net> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 19:51:43 +0530> To: mail at shivamvij.com> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: FACT Exhibition at IHC> > Dear Shivam.> > I for one do not symathise at all with the Naxalite project, because > I think it represents an authoritarian-state capitalist form of power > that is potentially just as ruthless as the one it wants to replace. > Maoism in practice, when it has been a ruling power is nothing if not > an extremely coercive form of state power. The history of China, > particularly with reference to the forced famines of the 'Great Leap > Forward' period, (which themselves are reminiscent of the forced > famines and extreme brutality that characterized Stalinist > interventions in the Soviet countryside during the 1930s) is not > something I either look forward to, or have any nostalgia for. Mao Xe > Dong, like Stalin, Pol Pot, Franco, Mussolini, Hitler, Ayatollah > Khomeini, and the statesmen of the Imperial west cannot be > characterised in the judgement of history as anything other than in > terms of the violence of their tyranny.> > However, if disposessed tribals rely on armed Naxal dalams for a > momentary respite against the rapacious violence of state supported > militias and the legitimate security forces of the Indian republic, I > am not inordinately surprised. Nor do I find it necessary to be > judgemental of this. My political opposition to the Naxal project > does not for a moment distract me into condemning those amongst the > labouring poor who for practical reasons that have to do with matters > of life and death, choose to become its partisans.> > I hope this clarifies things a little> > regards> > Shuddha> > > On 12-Jul-08, at 7:39 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote:> > > Dear Shuddha,> >> > I completely agree with you that an ordinary tribal would be wont > > to choose the Naxalite over the corporate-criminal called the > > Indian politician. On 'informal security personnel', I am less sure > > if all the victims can be characterised thus. This is true of Bihar > > and Jharkhand - indeed, there has been more than enough evidence > > that the Ranvir Sena was promoted and supported by mainstream > > political parties. But this is not an open and shut case, it leaves > > us with questions, perhaps banal ones. The political activist who > > uses violence in response to Naxalism, the political activist whose > > violence begets support for Naxalism... did the chicken come first > > or the egg? Then again, I have heard of these political parties > > appeasing Naxalites, particularly in Jharkhand, for support in > > elections.> >> > And then there might be those who have been appointed > > administrators by the Indian state, the collector or the patwari, > > who are also similarly targeted by Naxalites just because they > > represent the Indian state. As representatives of the Indian state, > > they do carry out the agenda of looting the mineral-rich regions, > > displacing the tribals to nowhere... I wonder where the buck began > > and where it stops, I wonder if I can sympathise, politically > > speaking, with the Naxalite project even one bit because a > > displaced tribal has joined the naxalite dalam...> >> > best> > shivam> >> >> > On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 7:24 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > wrote:> > Dear Shivam,> >> >> >> > I agree with you substantially on this matter.> >> >> >> > As for those who hose who (in your words)> >> >> represent the Indian state but are not security personnel. > >> (includes all those who are involved in mainstream, electoral > >> politics)> >>> >> > Yes, they too must be counted amongst the civilian casualties, and > > I have absolutely no doubt at all about the fact that those called > > 'Naxals' use intimidation and terror against them. Several of these > > people (who have interests in the Indian state in electoral terms > > but are not security personnel) however, are not simply unarmed > > political workers. Some are, many are not. Included amongst them > > are especially the party workers of the Rashtriya Janata Dal, the > > Janata Dal (United), the Jharkhand Mukti Morcha (all factions) the > > Communist Party of India, the Communist Party of india (Marxist), > > the Congress, the Bharatiya Janata Party and the Samajwadi Party. > > All these people are also quite well armed. They too use terror and > > intimidation as an everyday feature of their political methods > > (whenever necessary), just as the so called 'Naxals' do. I have > > often wondered how we might characterize this population. Your > > response gives me a pointer, perhaps they could be called the > > 'informal insecurity personnel of the Indian state'> >> >> > I am not for a moment suggesting that anyone is innocent here, and > > I certainly hold no brief for the retrograde left-nationalist > > variety of politics that calls itself 'Maoism'. However, I can see > > why, if the interests of the indigenous tribal poor of these areas > > are threatened by the state, which, in cahoots with large corporate > > mining interests, seeks to disposess people of their land, why they > > would not be utterly indifferent to the brand of politics that > > Maoism represents. Given a choice between a body of highly armed > > men who want to throw you out of your land, and disrupt your way of > > life, and another body of armed men, who fight the first body of > > armed men, forming a temporary, non-ideological and pragmatic > > alliance with the second body of armed men is not an irrational > > choice.> >> >> >> > The largest body of victims however, would in all probability be - > > simply - ordinary human beings who do not necessarily hold or > > advertize their political and quasi-criminal affiliations in this > > protracted gang war. I think these nuances, however, are lost on > > the easy categorizations presented to us by FACT and other such > > entities.> >> >> >> > I hope I have made myself abundantly clear.> >> >> >> > regards> >> >> >> > Shuddha> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > On 12-Jul-08, at 6:31 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > > wrote:> >> >> >> Dear Shuddha,> >>> >>> >>> >> One is as usual grateful to you for illuminating what was > >> deliberately> >>> >> hidden. Naxalism is the sort of far Left political mobilisation that> >>> >> evokes interesting responses from left, left-liberals,> >>> >> liberals-but-not-leftists, Marxists, post-Marxists - and similar> >>> >> gradients of the right. So it is indeed important to know where an> >>> >> anti-Naxal response is coming from, and so one is grateful for your> >>> >> frisking in this case.> >>> >>> >>> >> Just one thing: the civilian casualties you point to, no doubt > >> include> >>> >> innocents killed by security forces, but they also include those who> >>> >> represent the Indian state but are not security personnel. This> >>> >> includes all those who are involved in mainstream, electoral politics> >>> >> and who are killed for just that.> >>> >>> >>> >> (To digress, this reminds of an important point made by Prashant Jha> >>> >> in this travel essay on Naxalism -> >>> >> http://www.himalmag.com/2007/december/ > >> cover_feature_india_naxatile.html> >>> >> - one that few make: Naxalism thrives where democratic politics was> >>> >> already weak, of left or right, and once Naxalism begins to take > >> root,> >>> >> it prevents democratic politics from spreading.)> >>> >>> >>> >> In the case of Chhattisgarh, no doubt the civilian casualties are> >>> >> largely coming from Salwa Judum atrocities, but perhaps equally from> >>> >> Naxalites killing those who join Salwa Judum, or seek to, or > >> refuse to> >>> >> join either. While Chattisgarh's average stats have an over- > >> bearing of> >>> >> the Salwa Judum-caused figures, I think it is important to remember> >>> >> while talking of Naxalism that Salwa Judum is present only in one of> >>> >> the 160 (or whatever the claim is by whoever) districts that are> >>> >> 'Naxalite affected'. This is not to downplay the mayhem that a> >>> >> state-run militia is causing in the Dantewada district of the Basatar> >>> >> plateau, but Dantewada is not India.> >>> >>> >>> >> best> >>> >> shivam> >>> >>> >>> >> On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta> >>> >> wrote:> >>> >>> Dear Aditya, dear Pankhuree, dear all,> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Thank you, Aditya, for forwarding information about the FACT> >>>> >>> (Foundation Against Continuing Terrorism) sponsored exhibition> >>>> >>> titled: 'Naxalism: A Threat to the Unified Nation of India'> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> While I am no sympathizer of Maoism, or those who are either called> >>>> >>> 'Maoists' or 'Naxalites' in India, I do have a few bones to pick > >>> with> >>>> >>> the contents of the exhibition at the India Habitat Centre that you> >>>> >>> have recommended to us.> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> While looking at what pretends to be information of this nature > >>> it is> >>>> >>> always useful to do a little thinking about numbers. The statistics> >>>> >>> of casualties in the FACT exhibition are taken from the monthly> >>>> >>> statistics and reports published in the South Asia Intelligence> >>>> >>> Review by the South Asia Terrorism Portal, a think tank headed by > >>> the> >>>> >>> notorious former Punjab police chief who masterminded disappearances> >>>> >>> and the utilization of 'renegade' militants as an instrument of> >>>> >>> policy in Punjab and the North East, architect of the Indian hockey> >>>> >>> team's disasters and well known pincher of women's bottoms, Mr. KPS> >>>> >>> GIll. I am a regular recipient of the SAIR and I happen to follow > >>> the> >>>> >>> figures that are mentioned in its reports quite diligently.> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> I have no quarrel with the reports, as such, as I have no way of> >>>> >>> assessing their accuracy, or inaccuracy. However, I do have a > >>> quarrel> >>>> >>> with the way in which this information is presented in the FACT> >>>> >>> exhibition. In each instance, there is a heading called 'civilian> >>>> >>> casualties' . Let us take the Table that says 'Naxal Violence in> >>>> >>> Chattisgarh' and analyse the information given for the year 2007> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> ' Security Forces Casualties 181> >>>> >>> Civilian Casualties 166> >>>> >>> Naxalites Killed 66 '> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> What I find interesting is the figure for 'Civilian Casualties'.> >>>> >>> Given in this way, it appears as if the 'Civilians' killed are > >>> due to> >>>> >>> 'Naxal' violence. The sources of these figures, the SAIR bulletins,> >>>> >>> simply title their tables as 'Weekly Fatalities: Major Conflicts in> >>>> >>> South Asia' , which in my opinion, is a far more precise way of> >>>> >>> talking about the casualty figures, because it does not actually> >>>> >>> attribute specific authorship to the violence. This is significant,> >>>> >>> because the 'civilans' while they may be targetted on occasion by > >>> the> >>>> >>> Maoists, are also, generally, in a far larger measure, targetted by> >>>> >>> the security forces, and the 'Anti-Maoist' militia called the Salwa> >>>> >>> Judum. So, when we see 'civilian casualties' we are looking at a> >>>> >>> number of people who may have been killed, by 'Naxals', by security> >>>> >>> forces, by militia like the 'Salwa Judum'. Since, 'Naxals' depend on> >>>> >>> their survival on the sympathies (and to a certain extent, fear) of> >>>> >>> the tribal poor, it is extremely unrealistic to deduce that they> >>>> >>> would in fact be the primary authors of the violence that is> >>>> >>> described as 'civilian casualties'. Numerous investigations report> >>>> >>> that the actual primary authors of this violence are the security> >>>> >>> forces, and the Salwa Judum, both of which act with impunity in> >>>> >>> Chattisgarh. In this instance, the FACT exhibition is indulging in a> >>>> >>> serious case of disinformation. It could be argued that it is doing> >>>> >>> so at the behest of the primary authors of this violence, that is,> >>>> >>> the security forces and those who have floated outfits such as the> >>>> >>> 'Salwa Judum'.> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> In the FACT exhibition text, the Salwa Judum is introduced as 'Hope> >>>> >>> Floats'. It is by now well documented that the Salwa Judum is in > >>> fact> >>>> >>> one of the deadliest and most lethal armed outfits operating in> >>>> >>> India, which coerces tribals who are forced into detention camps to> >>>> >>> join it as footsoldiers, which uses child soldiers and uses rape,> >>>> >>> torture and arson. It has become an instrument of state terror, and> >>>> >>> is supported by the corporate interests which have a stake in the> >>>> >>> mining operations in the area to clear tribals off the land that the> >>>> >>> mining companies lust after.> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Even the South Asia Terrorism Portal (which the FACT exhibition> >>>> >>> relies on extensively, otherwise) has this to say about the Salwa > >>> Judum> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> 'However, local reports from the areas witnessing the campaign have> >>>> >>> been disturbing, with analysts questioning the policy of state> >>>> >>> support to a vigilante movement that exposes large numbers of> >>>> >>> civilians to unacceptable risk. According to a former Director> >>>> >>> General of Police, Dr. K S Subramanian, 'While official sources> >>>> >>> maintain that the campaign, led by a local legislator, is hugely> >>>> >>> successful with the tribal people joining it in large numbers, local> >>>> >>> enquiries revealed a different picture. In the name of Salwa Judum,> >>>> >>> the tribal people are being forced to join a far from spontaneous> >>>> >>> mobilisation… Hundreds have been killed on both sides. A large > >>> area> >>>> >>> of land remains uncultivated; tribal people who are meant to work on> >>>> >>> the land have deserted the villages and are living under open skies> >>>> >>> and are starving. A vast amount of corruption has crept in as a> >>>> >>> result of this misconceived campaign with the ruling party spending> >>>> >>> huge amounts on it.'> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/sair/archives/4_33.htm> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> For a more detailed investigation of the Salwa Judum's 'spontaneous'> >>>> >>> activities, please see - the PUCL (Peoples Union for Civil> >>>> >>> Liberties) report on the Salwa Judum at> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> http://www.pucl.org/Topics/Human-rights/2006/slawajudum.htm> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> There are other howlers in the exhibition, such as the fact that. > >>> the> >>>> >>> Ranvir Sena is mentioned as a Naxalite organization. Now, the Ranvir> >>>> >>> Sena, as is very well known, is a militia of upper caste landowners> >>>> >>> in Bihar and parts of Jharkhand that has actually been at war (like> >>>> >>> the Salwa Judum) with the Naxals for several decades now. Calling > >>> the> >>>> >>> Ranvir Sena a 'Naxalite' organization is a bit like calling Panun> >>>> >>> Kashmir, or Roots in Kashmir a front organization of the JKLF or the> >>>> >>> Hizbul Mujahideen in Kashmir.> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Finally, a word about FACT, the outfit that has organized this> >>>> >>> exhibition. The moving force behind FACT is the rather flamboyant> >>>> >>> French expatriate journalist based in Delhi, Francois Gautier, whose> >>>> >>> sympathies for hard line Hindu Fundamentalism has never been a > >>> secret.> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> He founded FACT with money he got from the'Nachiketa' Journalism> >>>> >>> prize awarded to him by the then Prime Minister of India Mr Atal> >>>> >>> Bihari Vajpayee on behalf of the Government of India. The Nachiketa> >>>> >>> prize has been instituted by the Panchajanya group of publications,> >>>> >>> which just happens to be the inhouse publishing arm of the Rashtriya> >>>> >>> Svayamsevak Sangh (RSS)> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Gautier's services as the South Asia Correspondent of the French> >>>> >>> newspaper, Le Figaro were terminated in 2000 on the grounds of his> >>>> >>> obviously biased (and often factually compromised) reportage. He has> >>>> >>> since then, spent time acting as the chief public relations point > >>> man> >>>> >>> for Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, and getting even closer to sections of the> >>>> >>> political far right in India.> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Apologies for this lengthy response, but I think it is necessary to> >>>> >>> have a few facts straight about FACT. Our patriots, while they > >>> have a> >>>> >>> great deal of enthusiasm, are not generally well known for > >>> precision,> >>>> >>> and the boring matter of attempting to maintain a consistency with,> >>>> >>> em, the facts.> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> regards,> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Shuddha> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> On 12-Jul-08, at 11:09 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote:> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Pankhuree,> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> You can check the online exhibition here:> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Here it is.> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> http://www.scribd.com/doc/2469417/Naxal-Low-Res-> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> http://www.scribd.com/doc/3907033/5-new-panels> >>>>> >>>> For More details Mr. Veeru might be contacted here - Mob: +91 93912> >>>>> >>>> 45303> >>>>> >>>> +91 98719 49094> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Thanks indeed,> >>>>> >>>> Aditya Raj Kaul> >>>>> >>>> Campaign Blog - www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> On 7/12/08, pankhuree dube wrote:> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Hi Mr. Kaul,> >>>>>> >>>>> Thank you for forwarding a description of this exhibit. It sounds> >>>>>> >>>>> fascinating. Do you know if there are any plans to make it> >>>>>> >>>>> available online> >>>>>> >>>>> so that individuals who are not able to view it in India can have> >>>>>> >>>>> a chance> >>>>>> >>>>> to read further about it?> >>>>>> >>>>> I would very much like to be able to see it firsthand, but even a> >>>>>> >>>>> brief> >>>>>> >>>>> description of the findings and perhaps a list of resources for> >>>>>> >>>>> further> >>>>>> >>>>> reading would be of great interest to me.Many thanks,> >>>>>> >>>>> Pankhuree> >>>>>> >>>>>> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 22:31:40 +0530> From:> >>>>>>> >>>>>> kauladityaraj at gmail.com>> >>>>>>> >>>>> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: FACT> >>>>>> >>>>> Exhibition at> >>>>>> >>>>> IHC> > *FACT INDIA: Exhibition on Naxalism opens in India Habitat> >>>>>> >>>>> Centre*> >> >>>>>> >>>>> *The Naxalism: A threat to Unified nation of India* The Exhibition> >>>>>> >>>>> is a>> >>>>>> >>>>> reflection of the Maoist insurgency in India, a blend of > >>>>> photographs>> >>>>>> >>>>> statistics and ofcourse an analysis and a presentation of > >>>>> FACTS. The>> >>>>>> >>>>> exhibition will be open for visitors at the INDIA HAbitat > >>>>> centre from> >>>>>> >>>>> *8-14th> july 2008*. The exhibition has already travelled to Oslo> >>>>>> >>>>> and was> >>>>>> >>>>> screened on> the sidelines of 'The Conference on Peace and> >>>>>> >>>>> Reconciliation in> >>>>>> >>>>> South Asia -> Challenges and Opportunities.'> > *The Exhibition*> >>>>>> >>>>> travels> >>>>>> >>>>> through the lives of the victims in the Naxal> infested states and> >>>>>> >>>>> present> >>>>>> >>>>> their lives as well as the lives of those> vallant fighters both> >>>>>> >>>>> civilian> >>>>>> >>>>> and from the government. Its the Fight> against terrorism the > >>>>> idea of> >>>>>> >>>>> killing because one doesnt believe or just> disagree with the > >>>>> others,> >>>>>> >>>>> Intolerence and disharmony.> > > > Timings: Tuesday, July 8, 2008> >>>>>> >>>>> - Monday,> >>>>>> >>>>> July 14, 2008> > Venue: India Habitat Center, <> >>>>>> >>>>> http://upcoming.yahoo.com/venue/131044/>Lodhi> Road, New Delhi> > >>>>> > > >> >>>>>> >>>>> Contact number:- Mr Veer 099871949094> > > -- > Thanks & regards>> >>>>>> >>>>> Rinku> >>>>>> >>>>> thusoo> Delhi> > http://kashmir-in-exile.blogspot.com>> >>>>>> >>>>> http://jokingbudha.blogspot.com> __._,_.___ Messages in this > >>>>> topic> <> >>>>>> >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/message/> >>>>>> >>>>> 4045;_ylc=X3oDMTM1OWhsbmZtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdy > >>>>> cHN> >>>>>> >>>>> wSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARtc2dJZAM0MDQ1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDM > >>>>> TIx> >>>>>> >>>>> NTc4NDk2OAR0cGNJZAM0MDQ1>>> >>>>>> >>>>> (1) Reply (via web post)> <> >>>>>> >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/> >>>>>> >>>>> post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMXNpMHRhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdy > >>>>> cHN> >>>>>> >>>>> wSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARtc2dJZAM0MDQ1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDM > >>>>> TIx> >>>>>> >>>>> NTc4NDk2OA--?act=reply&messageNum=4045>|>> >>>>>> >>>>> Start a new topic> <> >>>>>> >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/> >>>>>> >>>>> post;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZGlxM3ZsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGdy > >>>>> cHN> >>>>>> >>>>> wSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Njg-> > >>>>> >> >>>>>> >>>>> Messages<> >>>>>> >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/> >>>>>> >>>>> messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNTJ0cm5tBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3 > >>>>> BGd> >>>>>> >>>>> ycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNtc2dzBHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5N > >>>>> jg-> >>>>>> >>>>>> |>> >>>>>>> >>>>> Files<> >>>>>> >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/> >>>>>> >>>>> files;_ylc=X3oDMTJnNjA5ZjdhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGd > >>>>> ycH> >>>>>> >>>>> NwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNmaWxlcwRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4 > >>>>> >|>> >>>>>> >>>>> Photos<> >>>>>> >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/> >>>>>> >>>>> photos;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNnJjdjluBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BG > >>>>> dyc> >>>>>> >>>>> HNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNwaG90BHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Njg > >>>>> -> >>>>>> >>>>>> |>> >>>>>>> >>>>> Links<> >>>>>> >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/> >>>>>> >>>>> links;_ylc=X3oDMTJnN3NvN3NpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGd > >>>>> ycH> >>>>>> >>>>> NwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNsaW5rcwRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4 > >>>>> >|>> >>>>>> >>>>> Database<> >>>>>> >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/> >>>>>> >>>>> database;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMWU1OXNuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3 > >>>>> BGd> >>>>>> >>>>> ycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNkYgRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4> > >>>>> |>> >>>>>> >>>>> Polls<> >>>>>> >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/> >>>>>> >>>>> polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJnYmw3dnYzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3BGd > >>>>> ycH> >>>>>> >>>>> NwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNwb2xscwRzdGltZQMxMjE1Nzg0OTY4 > >>>>> >|>> >>>>>> >>>>> Members<> >>>>>> >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/> >>>>>> >>>>> members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbzYyNXQ1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3B > >>>>> Gdy> >>>>>> >>>>> cHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyMTU3ODQ5Nj > >>>>> g->> >>>>>> >>>>> |>> >>>>>> >>>>> Calendar<> >>>>>> >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsinkashmir/> >>>>>> >>>>> calendar;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZjZjaWNwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODczNTc3 > >>>>> BGd> >>>>>> >>>>> ycHNwSWQDMTcwODM0Mzc1OARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNjYWwEc3RpbWUDMTIxNTc4NDk2O > >>>>> A--> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> MARKETPLACE> ------------------------------> Special offer for > >>>>> Yahoo!> >>>>>> >>>>> Groups> <> >>>>>> >>>>> http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13r4sn4qb/> >>>>>> >>>>> M=624381.12730922.13032918.10835568/D=groups/S=1708343758:MKP1/> >>>>>> >>>>> Y=YAHOO/EXP=1215792168/L=/B=8d5RAELaX9w-/J=1215784968592283/> >>>>>> >>>>> A=5396680/R=0/SIG=14e7adlkt/*http://media.adrevolver.com/> >>>>>> >>>>> adrevolver/href?banner=197791&place=26143&url_=http://> >>>>>> >>>>> tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/display.com?cid=bbi00027>from>> >>>>>> >>>>> Blockbuster! 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Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger_072008 From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sun Jul 13 13:04:37 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 12:34:37 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to Our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <008f01c8e498$6281e120$c3ffbd48@taraprakash> References: <0781A8D2-5F81-432D-8DA7-4E9A28C0C081@sarai.net> <008f01c8e498$6281e120$c3ffbd48@taraprakash> Message-ID: Hi, all, what is wrong if political party like CPM realises its mistakes that it has been supporting the Congress after its sad demise, a dead corpse, resurrected by Sonia for her survival as a queen of mafia, all illegal deals of Congress after 1984 have benefitted only this family and her sycophnats with hangers on. Be it Vidharbha package of 3,470 crores for the farmers, or special packages for the states, or the NREG schemes it is the hangers on and sycophants of this party who have siphoned off the funds meant for rural employment, farm equipments etc. Even Vibhishana in Ramayana shifted his loyalty to Rama as he could not stand asathya of Ravana, who is known as good king but fell into bad governance with immoral kidnap of some one elses spouse.! Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: TaraPrakash Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008 8:58 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to Our Humid Weimar To: sarai list , Shuddhabrata Sengupta > CPIM is a sinking ship. How far their Biman can sink is a million > dollar > question. Perhaps sky is the limit. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > To: "sarai list" > Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 6:28 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to Our Humid Weimar > > > > Dear all, > > > > I rest my case. > > > > Please read the two articles from the Indian Express - below. > > When I hear the so-called 'Left' and 'Right' march in unison, I hear > > the distant thud of jackboots in the night. > > > > cheers (?) > > > > Shuddha > > --------------------------- > > > > CPM speaks what was its unspeakable: we can support BJP-led > coalition> if... > > Dipankar De Sarkar > > Posted online: Sunday, July 13, 2008 at 0136 hrs Print Email > > It’s communal...doesn’t mean all the time BJP did mischief: Biman > > http://www.indianexpress.com/sunday/story/334897.html > > > > London, July 12:Biman Bose, CPM Politburo member and Left Front > > chairman in West Bengal, has said that the Left can consider > > supporting a BJP-led coalition if that party sheds what he > called its > > “communal agenda”. > > > > In surprising remarks made in London on Thursday, he also said the > > Left may have made “a mistake” by not withdrawing its support from > > the Congress-led United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government > earlier> and accused the Congress of trying to “bail out” the US > Republican> Party through the nuclear deal ahead of US elections. > > > > Bose made his startling remarks while briefing a select group of > > British diplomats, bankers, and government and Commonwealth > officials> over dinner in London Thursday night. > > > > IANS was the only Indian media group invited to this meeting. > > > > The dinner was hosted by industrialist Shishir Bajoria of the > Kolkata- > > based Bajoria Group. Bose, who is general secretary of the West > > Bengal CPM, was asked pointedly if there were any circumstances > under> which the Left would support a Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP)-led > > coalition in New Delhi. > > > > “The Left never subscribed to the communal politics of the BJP. That > > does not mean the BJP all the time did only mischief. It does not > > mean that. But the BJP could not leave its communal agenda,” > Bose said. > > > > “If it happens that the BJP is opposing communal politics, then the > > real stand will be clarified. Whether the BJP is more dangerous than > > the Congress or the other way round depends on some distinct > > political twists and turns, and parties’ principles can be judged > > only in those twists and turns, not in normal conditions...So wait > > for some days — or some years — to see those twists and turns. > If the > > BJP moves with the same politics with which they are moving today, > > the question (of supporting the BJP) doesn’t arise at all,” he > added.> > > Asked if the CPM wanted the BJP to support a common minimum > > programme, Bose stressed the importance of secularism. “They are to > > cut religion and politics. They mix up religion and politics. > > Religion should remain in temples, churches and mosques or in > > gurdwaras. That should be the private belief of the person > concerned.> Religion should not be mixed up with politics,” he > replied.> > > Earlier, speaking exclusively to IANS, Bose said that when it > came to > > the post-election scenario, the Left would support a Congress-led > > coalition “if the Congress has learnt their lesson”. “They have to > > bring down inflation, and introduce a universal public distribution > > system, and universal and free health and education.” > > > > Bose, in a dhoti in a roomful of men and women in business suits, > > hinted at a larger,global reason behind the Left’s withdrawal of > > support to the government over the India-US nuclear deal. “The > > (popularity) rating of George W Bush in the US has gone down to 28 > > percent. This has never happened before in history. The lowest used > > to be 38 percent - now it is 28 percent,” he told his audience. “In > > that political scenario, the government of India is going to > bail out > > George W. Bush by signing the nuclear agreement,” he said, adding > > that nuclear energy would account for only eight percent of India’s > > energy needs. > > > > Asked why the Left had not withdrawn support earlier, Bose replied: > > “There you might blame the Left parties.” > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > > > > RSS lends Karat a shoulder to cry on > > Suman K Jha > > Posted online: Sunday, July 13, 2008 at 0131 hrs Print Email > > > > New Delhi, July 12:As the CPM tries to put up a brave face battling > > contradictions within on its vote against the Congress-led > Government> over the Indo-US nuclear deal, it has found support > from none other =3E > than the Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh. > > > > > > Turning a sympathetic observer, the editorial in the latest > issue of > > RSS mouthpiece Organiser has put up a stout defence of Comrade > > Prakash Karat, something that would probably make even CPM organ > > People’s Democracy blush. > > > > “The Congress has deliberately created the situation, practically > > pushing the Left to the brink...The CPM general secretary Prakash > > Karat has reasons to be fuming. He has accused the Congress of > > humiliating his party and betraying its trust. He is right. The > > Congress didn’t extend the courtesy of showing the Left the original > > draft of the deal...Clearly, the government meant to slight the > > Left...” says the editorial. > > > > “The Left has been foolish enough in extending its support to the > > Congress in the name of keeping the BJP out to run the government, > > almost like a single party...There was a Common Minimum Programme. > > The Indo-US nuclear deal was not a party of it. For any political > > observer the Congress hara-kiri doesn’t make sense. Yet it has > > challenged Karat and declared itself a single-agenda government. Has > > the Left been so nagging for Sonia as to prefer this plight to their > > assured parliamentary security,” says the editorial. > > > > In what appears to be an open exhortation to the Left to revisit its > > past when it shared the anti-Congress platform with the BJP- > Bharatiya> Jana Sangh, the editorial adds: “There is no meeting > ground between > > the Left and the Congress but for their mutual antipathy for the > BJP.> In the fact the Left has tied itself in knots by following a > policy> of political untouchability and it was desperate to > distance itself > > from the failed UPA sufficiently early to face the electorate in the > > general election.” > > > > If one thought that the Left is in for huge reverses in the > > forthcoming elections, the RSS journal has an explanation ready: > “The> poor record of the Manmohan Singh, it is feared, is bound to > have an > > impact on the electoral fortunes of the Left.” When contacted, > former> Sangh spokesperson Ram Madhav said that “the RSS would > like all > > political parties to take a stand against the nuclear deal in its > > present form.” Exactly what Comrade Karat says. > > > > _________________________ > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Jul 13 13:38:59 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 13:38:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Indian Kashmir In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807121034y1a80823n469aad76329ce415@mail.gmail.com> References: <430165.49542.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <9c06aab30807121034y1a80823n469aad76329ce415@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807130108xf1a2178s79d8c29ebe9a1bcd@mail.gmail.com> Shivam , During the days os mass insurgencies , encounters at border discrict were very common . it ususally happened when the terrorists used to sneak into India in large groups. In each encounter , scores of people used to die .Many bodies would remain unidentified and police but usual used to bury them. If today , a different story is eing made of those graves , the rest of world should be made aware of the past instead of sensationalising the issue to create more distrust and hate. Regards Pawan On 7/12/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Dear Khurram, > > Thanks for posting this. The Delhi media's conspiracy of silence > around human rights violations in Kashmir, as also the intimidation of > those like you who seek to defend human rights, sadly seems reflected > on this list - this list seems to endlessly list the sentiments of > some and is silent on an article like this. > > best > shivam > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Khurram Parvez > wrote: > > > > A PDF of the article with photos can be found on the Tribunal website at: > > > > http://kashmirprocess.org/news/20080708_MassGravesKashmirChatterji.pdf > > > > > > > > Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Indian Kashmir > > > > Etala'at, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar, 09 July 2008 > > > > http://etalaat.com/english/Dimensions/1531.html > > > > > > > > > > > > Dirt, rubble, thick grass, hillside and flatland, crowded with graves. > > Signifiers of military and paramilitary terror, masked from the world. > > Constructed by institutions of state to conceal massacre. Placed next > > to homes, fields, schools, an army practise range. Unknown, unmarked. > > Over 940 graves in a segment of Baramulla district alone. Some > > containing more than one cadaver. Dug by locals, coerced by the police, > > on village land. Bodies dragged through the night, some tortured, > > burnt, desecrated. Circulating mythology claims these graves uniformly > > house 'foreign militants'. Exhumation and identification have not > > occurred in most cases. When undertaken, in sizable instances, records > > prove the dead to be local people, ordinary citizens, killed in fake > > encounters. In instances where bodies have been identified as local, > > non-militant and militant, it demystifies state rhetoric that rumours > > these persons to be 'foreign militants', propagating misrepresentation > > that the demand for self-determination is prevailingly external. > > Mourned, cared for, by locals, as 'farz'/duty, as part of an > > obligation, stated repeatedly, to 'azadi'. 'Azadi'/freedom to determine > > self and future. > > > > > > > > On 18 and 20 June, the International People's Tribunal on Human Rights > > and Justice in Indian-administered Kashmir ('Tribunal', convened in > > April 2008, www.kashmirprocess.org) visited Baramulla and Kupwara > > district to conduct ongoing fact-finding and verification related to > > mass graves at the behest of local communities. The team comprised of > > Tribunal Conveners Advocate Parvez Imroz and myself, a staff member, > > and camera crew. > > > > > > > > On 18 June, we visited Raja Mohalla in Uri, Baramulla district, 110 > > kilometres from Srinagar, where 22 graves were constructed between > > 1996-1997. Then to Quazipora, where 13 bodies were stated as buried in > > seven graves in 1991. Then we travelled to Chehal, Bimyar village, Uri, > > holding 235 graves. We re-met Atta Mohammad, gravedigger and caretaker > > at Chehal, who testified that these bodies, brought by the police, > > primarily after dark, were buried between 2002-2006. Atta Mohammad said > > that the bodies appear in his nightmares, each in graphic, gruesome > > detail. Terrorised by the task forced upon him, his nights are bereft > > of sleep. Then we travelled to Mir Mohalla, Kichama, Sheeri, to the > > main graveyard with 105 graves, stated to hold about 225-250 bodies, > > buried between 1994-2003, and a smaller graveyard, with nine graves, > > adjacent to a sign proclaiming it a 'Model Village'. > > > > > > > > On 20 June, we visited the northern district of Kupwara. On the way we > > witnessed army convoys, including one of 21+ vehicles. Created in 1979 > > through the forking of Baramulla district, approximately 5,000 feet > > above sea level, Kupwara borders the Line-of-Control to the north and > > west. Between Shamsbari and Pirpanchal mountain ranges, it is one of > > the most heavily militarised zones, about 95 kilometres from Srinagar. > > Kupwara houses six army camps, as military and paramilitary forces > > occupy significant land. Seven interrogation centres have been > > operational with police stations functioning as additional > > interrogation cells. In Hundwara town, a watchtower surveils and > > regulates movement. > > > > > > > > In Kupwara, we visited Trehgam village, holding 85-100 graves, 24 of > > which are identified, and spoke with community members. Trehgam was > > home to Maqbool Bhat (b. 1938), founding figure of the Jammu Kashmir > > National Liberation Front. Acknowledged as Shaheed-e-Kashmir, Bhat is > > labelled a 'terrorist' by certain segments of India. He sought to unite > > the territories of the former princely state of Jammu and Kashmir into > > a secular, sovereign, democratic state. Bhat was sentenced to death by > > the Supreme Court of India and hanged in Tihar jail in New Delhi on 11 > > February 1984. Maqbool Bhat's nephew, Parvaiz Ahmad Bhat, reminded us > > that Habibullah Bhat, Bhat's brother, was the first case of enforced > > disappearance before 1989. > > > > > > > > After Trehgam, we reached Regipora around 3 pm and stopped for lunch. > > There, two persons introduced themselves as Special Branch Kashmir > > (SBK) and Counter Intelligence Kashmir (CIK) personnel, and questioned > > the Tribunal staff member about our visit. After responding, we > > proceeded to the 'martyrs' graveyard' holding 258 graves, constructed > > in 1995. This burial ground is meticulously ordered, each grave > > numbered. The body of a 20-25 year old youth was buried in the first > > week of June, reportedly killed in an encounter in Bamhama village. > > > > > > > > We stopped at a roadside tea stall to speak with local people about the > > graves. Four intelligence personnel questioned us, asking we disclose > > information about those we had visited. Soon, four additional SBK and > > CIK personnel joined the questioning. Other intelligence personnel made > > phone calls. By then, about 12 intelligence personnel gathered. > > Following further questioning we proceeded toward Srinagar. A car > > followed at a distance. > > > > > > > > We detoured to Sadipora, Kandi, where locals stated that around 20 > > bodies were buried. The graveyard, overrun with wild flowers, is part > > of a larger ground used during festivals, including Id. Two of four > > bodies, killed in a fake encounter on 29 April 2007, were exhumed, > > identified as locals, contrary to police records stating them to be > > 'Pakistani terrorists'. Saidipora holds Riyaz Ahmad Bhat's grave, > > killed in the encounter, age 19. Police records, per the First > > Information Report, declared him a 'Pakistani terrorist'. Riyaz Bhat > > was identified by Javeed Ahmed, his brother, as a resident of > > Kalashpora, Srinagar, based on police photographs from the time of > > death. Ahmed travelled with the Tribunal to take us to his brother's > > grave. On his knees Javeed attempted to clear the thick brush. Later, > > in Srinagar, he testified that Bhat had never been involved in > > militancy. Javeed spoke of grieving, of imprisonment and beatings at > > the police station. He asked how he could have saved his brother from > > death. > > > > > > > > After Sadiapora, we were stopped at Shangargund, Sopore, at about 6.40 > > pm, by three persons in civilian clothing. They forcibly boarded the > > car. We were ordered to the Sopore Police Station. There we were asked > > to detail our identity, employment, the purpose of the visit, and to > > hand over tapes which, the police alleged, contained 'dangerous' and > > 'objectionable' material. We stated that the Tribunal, a public > > process, was undertaking its work peaceably, lawfully, with informed > > consent, and that we had not visited restricted areas. We stated that > > the police had no lawful reason to seize the tapes. We were detained > > for 16 minutes. After several calls to senior police persons, we were > > released. A red Indica car followed us to Sangrama. At Srinagar, > > Intelligence personnel were stationed at my hotel. On 21 June, I was > > followed from the hotel to the Tribunal's office in Lal Chowk, where > > about 8 personnel were stationed the entire day questioning anyone who > > entered or left the office. > > > > > > > > My mother, residing in Calcutta, received a query regarding my > > whereabouts from the District Magistrate's Office. I was followed to > > the Srinagar airport on 22 June, and questioned, asked if I possessed > > dual citizenship. I do not. I am a citizen of India and a permanent > > resident of the United States. On 24 June, I arrived in Bhubaneswar to > > submit a statement to the Commission of Inquiry on the Kandhamal > > violence against Christians in 2007 in Orissa. There too, Central > > Intelligence officials persistently inquired after me. In April, after > > announcing the Tribunal, I was stopped and harassed at Immigration > > while leaving India for the United States, and again on my re-entry in > > June. > > > > > > > > The targeting of the Tribunal has not abated since the Amarnath issue > > erupted around 23 June. The volatile proposal to transfer 800 kanals of > > land to the Shrine Board, revoked on 01 July, was supported by the > > Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party and Hindu militant Shiv Sena. > > Despite the Sena's recent call to Hindus to form suicide squads, it > > faces no sanctions from the state. Kashmiris of diverse ethnicities and > > religions dissented the Amarnath land transfer. Community leaders in > > Kashmir explained that their stance against the proposal is not in > > dissent to Hindu pilgrims, but a repressive state. During the Amarnath > > land transfer protests, civil disobedience paralleled that of 1989, > > amid severe repression. On 30 June, in curfew-like conditions, we met > > with two families in Srinagar who narrated that the police had shot > > dead their sons. At one place, in the old city, while the men took the > > body for burial late at night, the police returned and destroyed > > property and molested women. > > > > > > > > On 30 June, at about 10:10 pm, Parvez Imroz and his family were > > attacked at home by state forces, who fired three shots and hurled a > > grenade while exiting when family and community interrupted their > > attempts. Neighbours reported seeing one large armoured vehicle and two > > Gypsy cars, and men in CRPF (Central Reserve Police Force) and SOG > > (Special Operations Group) uniforms. This murder attempt is an > > escalation in the forms of state-led intimidation and targeting aimed > > at Advocate Imroz. It is an attempt to make the Tribunal vulnerable and > > instil fear in us in an attempt to stop this process. > > > > > > > > On 01 July, we met at Khurram Parvez's home before addressing a press > > conference. Outside, jeeps with plainclothes men continued their > > observation, accompanied by a jeep with armed men in uniform. Later, > > Advocate Imroz, Khurram Parvez, Advocate Mihir Desai, and I went to the > > police station to lodge a First Information Report. We were not > > permitted to do so. For security reasons, Parvez Imroz is not staying > > at home. Khurram Parvez remains under surveillance. I must allow for > > distance before revisiting the graves. On 04 July, sitting on a plane > > at Delhi International Airport, waiting to take-off, I received a phone > > call on my India mobile, caller 'Unknown': "Madam, we know you're > > leaving. Think wisely before coming back". > > > > > > > > Orders to unnerve the leadership of the International Tribunal by the > > Government of India's intelligence and security administration appear > > to be generated at the highest levels. The general policy of > > surveillance should not be used as a pretext to create obstacles for > > our work. As India argues for a seat on the United Nations Security > > Council, the Government of India, as 'Frontline Defenders' stated in > > their recent alert supporting the Tribunal, must adhere to its own > > repeated commitment to peace in Kashmir and international conventions > > and laws. It must uphold democratic governance and safeguard human > > rights. > > > > > > > > Advocate Imroz, Khurram Parvez, other members of the Tribunal team, > > have long experienced injustices for their extraordinary work as human > > rights defenders. A lauded human rights lawyer, Parvez Imroz has > > survived two, now three, assassination attempts, the first from > > militants. Since 2005, his passport has been denied. Khurram Parvez > > lost his leg in a landmine incident. Gautam Navlakha and Zahir-Ud-Din > > have been intimidated and threatened, as has Mihir Desai, in their > > larger work. It is noteworthy that the Government of India is adding > > intimidation to the death and rape threats delivered me by Hindu > > extremists for human rights work. > > > > > > > > The work of the Tribunal is > > an act of conscience and accountability, fraught with the charge of > > complex and violent histories. Its mandate, in documenting Kashmir's > > present, is to chronicle the fabric of militarisation, status of human > > rights, and legal, political, militaristic 'states of exception'. The > > Tribunal's work will continue through the coming months. We have > > received extensive solidarity from civil society; victims/survivors, at > > street corners, from villagers, ordinary citizens, those committed to > > justice. Each life in Kashmir has a story to tell. The subjugation of > > civil society has produced magnificent ethical resistance. The state > > cannot combat every individual. > > > > > > > > Nearly two decades of genocidal violence record 70,000+ dead, 8,000+ > > disappeared, 60,000+ tortured, 50,000+ orphaned, incalculable > > sexualised and gendered violence, a very high rate of people with > > suicidal behaviours; hundreds of thousands displaced; violations of > > promises, laws, conventions, agreements, treaties; mass graves; mile > > upon mile of barbed wire; fear, suppression of varied demands for > > participation to determine Kashmir's future, spirals of violence, > > protracted silence. Last year, Kashmir's only hospital with services > > for mental health received 68,000 patients. Profound social, economic, > > and psychological consequences, and an intense isolation have impacted > > private, public, and everyday life. It has generated brutal resistance > > on the part of groups that have engaged in violent militancy. > > Repressions of struggles for self-determination and international > > policies/politics have yielded severe consequences, creating a juncture > > at which the failure of governance intersects with a culture of grief. > > > > > > > > Torture survivors, non-militants and former militants, that I met with > > testified to the sadism of the forces. Reportedly, a man, hung upside > > down, had petrol injected through his anus. Water-boarding, mutilation, > > rape of women, children, and men, starvation, psychological torture. > > Brutalised, 'healed', to be brutalised again. An eagle tattoo on the > > arm of a man was reportedly identified by an army officer as a symbol > > of Pakistan-held Azad Kashmir, even as the man clarified the tattoo was > > from his childhood. The skin containing it was burned. The officer, the > > man stated, said: "When you look at this, think of azadi". A mother, > > reportedly asked to watch her daughter's rape by army personnel, > > pleaded for her release. They refused. She pleaded that she could not > > watch, asking to be sent out of the room or be killed. We were told > > that the soldier pointed a gun to her forehead, stating he would grant > > her wish, and shot her before they proceeded to rape the daughter. We > > also spoke with persons violated by militants. One man stated that > > people's experiences with the reprehensible atrocities of militancy do > > not imply the abdication of their desire for self-determination. This, > > he stated, is a mistake the state makes, conflating militancy with the > > intent for self-determination. He clarified that neither is > > self-determination an indication of allegiance to Pakistan, largely to > > the contrary. > > > > > > > > The continuing and daunting presence of military and paramilitary > > forces, increased and sophisticated surveillance, merges with pervasive > > and immense suffering and anger of people in villages, towns, and > > cities across Kashmir. Parallel to the presence of 500,000 troops and > > commitment to nuclearisation, official figures state that there are > > about 450 militants in Kashmir and that demilitarisation is underway. > > In March 2007, three government committees on demilitarisation resolved > > that the 'low intensity war continues', placing in limbo troop > > reduction and the repealment of draconian laws -- the Armed Forces > > Special Powers Act, 1958, imposed in Jammu and Kashmir in December > > 1990, and the Disturbed Areas Act, 1976, enacted in 1992. Local > > realities reflect that these laws and the military seek to control the > > general population with impunity. > > > > > > > > Kashmir is increasingly defined as a 'post-conflict' zone. > > 'Post-conflict' is not the propagation of tourism toward an overt > > display of nationalism. Post-conflict is a space in which to heal, > > reflect, and enable civil society participation in determining peace > > and justice. The graves speak to those that listen. Those haunted by > > history are called to remember. > > > > > > > > (Dr. > > Angana Chatterji is associate professor of Social and Cultural > > Anthropology at the California Institute of Integral Studies and > > co-convener of the International People's Tribunal in Kashmir.) > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > -- > /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sun Jul 13 14:36:22 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:06:22 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Indian Kashmir In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70807130108xf1a2178s79d8c29ebe9a1bcd@mail.gmail.com> References: <430165.49542.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <9c06aab30807121034y1a80823n469aad76329ce415@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807130108xf1a2178s79d8c29ebe9a1bcd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Pawan, when human rights activists forget the fact being human and see the wrongs of only one faith, this is waht happens in society, they keep the violence burning and keep feeding fodder so that they can bake their breads in it.? Is there any count of deaths in the hands of fanatics when the ordinary kashmiri refused to join with their jihaad.? How these fanatics have disposed the bodies of their own muslim brothers who disagreed with them, refused to co-operate with them, are they also not part of the mass graves to crow about. ? regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Pawan Durani Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008 1:39 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Indian Kashmir To: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् Cc: sarai list , ccs at jkccs.org > Shivam , > > During the days os mass insurgencies , encounters at border > discrict were > very common . it ususally happened when the terrorists used to > sneak into > India in large groups. > > In each encounter , scores of people used to die .Many bodies > would remain > unidentified and police but usual used to bury them. > > If today , a different story is eing made of those graves , the > rest of > world should be made aware of the past instead of sensationalising > the issue > to create more distrust and hate. > > Regards > > Pawan > > > > On 7/12/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > > > Dear Khurram, > > > > Thanks for posting this. The Delhi media's conspiracy of silence > > around human rights violations in Kashmir, as also the > intimidation of > > those like you who seek to defend human rights, sadly seems > reflected> on this list - this list seems to endlessly list the > sentiments of > > some and is silent on an article like this. > > > > best > > shivam > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Khurram Parvez > > wrote: > > > > > > A PDF of the article with photos can be found on the Tribunal > website at: > > > > > > > http://kashmirprocess.org/news/20080708_MassGravesKashmirChatterji.pdf> > > > > > > > > > > Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Indian Kashmir > > > > > > Etala'at, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar, 09 July 2008 > > > > > > http://etalaat.com/english/Dimensions/1531.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dirt, rubble, thick grass, hillside and flatland, crowded with > graves.> > Signifiers of military and paramilitary terror, masked > from the world. > > > Constructed by institutions of state to conceal massacre. > Placed next > > > to homes, fields, schools, an army practise range. Unknown, > unmarked.> > Over 940 graves in a segment of Baramulla district > alone. Some > > > containing more than one cadaver. Dug by locals, coerced by > the police, > > > on village land. Bodies dragged through the night, some tortured, > > > burnt, desecrated. Circulating mythology claims these graves > uniformly> > house 'foreign militants'. Exhumation and > identification have not > > > occurred in most cases. When undertaken, in sizable instances, > records> > prove the dead to be local people, ordinary citizens, > killed in fake > > > encounters. In instances where bodies have been identified as > local,> > non-militant and militant, it demystifies state rhetoric > that rumours > > > these persons to be 'foreign militants', propagating > misrepresentation> > that the demand for self-determination is > prevailingly external. > > > Mourned, cared for, by locals, as 'farz'/duty, as part of an > > > obligation, stated repeatedly, to 'azadi'. 'Azadi'/freedom to > determine> > self and future. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 18 and 20 June, the International People's Tribunal on > Human Rights > > > and Justice in Indian-administered Kashmir ('Tribunal', > convened in > > > April 2008, www.kashmirprocess.org) visited Baramulla and Kupwara > > > district to conduct ongoing fact-finding and verification > related to > > > mass graves at the behest of local communities. The team > comprised of > > > Tribunal Conveners Advocate Parvez Imroz and myself, a staff > member,> > and camera crew. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 18 June, we visited Raja Mohalla in Uri, Baramulla > district, 110 > > > kilometres from Srinagar, where 22 graves were constructed between > > > 1996-1997. Then to Quazipora, where 13 bodies were stated as > buried in > > > seven graves in 1991. Then we travelled to Chehal, Bimyar > village, Uri, > > > holding 235 graves. We re-met Atta Mohammad, gravedigger and > caretaker> > at Chehal, who testified that these bodies, brought > by the police, > > > primarily after dark, were buried between 2002-2006. Atta > Mohammad said > > > that the bodies appear in his nightmares, each in graphic, > gruesome> > detail. Terrorised by the task forced upon him, his > nights are bereft > > > of sleep. Then we travelled to Mir Mohalla, Kichama, Sheeri, > to the > > > main graveyard with 105 graves, stated to hold about 225-250 > bodies,> > buried between 1994-2003, and a smaller graveyard, with > nine graves, > > > adjacent to a sign proclaiming it a 'Model Village'. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 20 June, we visited the northern district of Kupwara. On > the way we > > > witnessed army convoys, including one of 21+ vehicles. Created > in 1979 > > > through the forking of Baramulla district, approximately 5,000 > feet> > above sea level, Kupwara borders the Line-of-Control to > the north and > > > west. Between Shamsbari and Pirpanchal mountain ranges, it is > one of > > > the most heavily militarised zones, about 95 kilometres from > Srinagar.> > Kupwara houses six army camps, as military and > paramilitary forces > > > occupy significant land. Seven interrogation centres have been > > > operational with police stations functioning as additional > > > interrogation cells. In Hundwara town, a watchtower surveils and > > > regulates movement. > > > > > > > > > > > > In Kupwara, we visited Trehgam village, holding 85-100 graves, > 24 of > > > which are identified, and spoke with community members. > Trehgam was > > > home to Maqbool Bhat (b. 1938), founding figure of the Jammu > Kashmir> > National Liberation Front. Acknowledged as Shaheed-e- > Kashmir, Bhat is > > > labelled a 'terrorist' by certain segments of India. He sought > to unite > > > the territories of the former princely state of Jammu and > Kashmir into > > > a secular, sovereign, democratic state. Bhat was sentenced to > death by > > > the Supreme Court of India and hanged in Tihar jail in New > Delhi on 11 > > > February 1984. Maqbool Bhat's nephew, Parvaiz Ahmad Bhat, > reminded us > > > that Habibullah Bhat, Bhat's brother, was the first case of > enforced> > disappearance before 1989. > > > > > > > > > > > > After Trehgam, we reached Regipora around 3 pm and stopped for > lunch.> > There, two persons introduced themselves as Special > Branch Kashmir > > > (SBK) and Counter Intelligence Kashmir (CIK) personnel, and > questioned> > the Tribunal staff member about our visit. After > responding, we > > > proceeded to the 'martyrs' graveyard' holding 258 graves, > constructed> > in 1995. This burial ground is meticulously > ordered, each grave > > > numbered. The body of a 20-25 year old youth was buried in the > first> > week of June, reportedly killed in an encounter in > Bamhama village. > > > > > > > > > > > > We stopped at a roadside tea stall to speak with local people > about the > > > graves. Four intelligence personnel questioned us, asking we > disclose> > information about those we had visited. Soon, four > additional SBK and > > > CIK personnel joined the questioning. Other intelligence > personnel made > > > phone calls. By then, about 12 intelligence personnel gathered. > > > Following further questioning we proceeded toward Srinagar. A car > > > followed at a distance. > > > > > > > > > > > > We detoured to Sadipora, Kandi, where locals stated that > around 20 > > > bodies were buried. The graveyard, overrun with wild flowers, > is part > > > of a larger ground used during festivals, including Id. Two of > four> > bodies, killed in a fake encounter on 29 April 2007, were > exhumed,> > identified as locals, contrary to police records > stating them to be > > > 'Pakistani terrorists'. Saidipora holds Riyaz Ahmad Bhat's grave, > > > killed in the encounter, age 19. Police records, per the First > > > Information Report, declared him a 'Pakistani terrorist'. > Riyaz Bhat > > > was identified by Javeed Ahmed, his brother, as a resident of > > > Kalashpora, Srinagar, based on police photographs from the > time of > > > death. Ahmed travelled with the Tribunal to take us to his > brother's> > grave. On his knees Javeed attempted to clear the > thick brush. Later, > > > in Srinagar, he testified that Bhat had never been involved in > > > militancy. Javeed spoke of grieving, of imprisonment and > beatings at > > > the police station. He asked how he could have saved his > brother from > > > death. > > > > > > > > > > > > After Sadiapora, we were stopped at Shangargund, Sopore, at > about 6.40 > > > pm, by three persons in civilian clothing. They forcibly > boarded the > > > car. We were ordered to the Sopore Police Station. There we > were asked > > > to detail our identity, employment, the purpose of the visit, > and to > > > hand over tapes which, the police alleged, contained > 'dangerous' and > > > 'objectionable' material. We stated that the Tribunal, a public > > > process, was undertaking its work peaceably, lawfully, with > informed> > consent, and that we had not visited restricted areas. > We stated that > > > the police had no lawful reason to seize the tapes. We were > detained> > for 16 minutes. After several calls to senior police > persons, we were > > > released. A red Indica car followed us to Sangrama. At Srinagar, > > > Intelligence personnel were stationed at my hotel. On 21 June, > I was > > > followed from the hotel to the Tribunal's office in Lal Chowk, > where> > about 8 personnel were stationed the entire day > questioning anyone who > > > entered or left the office. > > > > > > > > > > > > My mother, residing in Calcutta, received a query regarding my > > > whereabouts from the District Magistrate's Office. I was > followed to > > > the Srinagar airport on 22 June, and questioned, asked if I > possessed> > dual citizenship. I do not. I am a citizen of India > and a permanent > > > resident of the United States. On 24 June, I arrived in > Bhubaneswar to > > > submit a statement to the Commission of Inquiry on the Kandhamal > > > violence against Christians in 2007 in Orissa. There too, Central > > > Intelligence officials persistently inquired after me. In > April, after > > > announcing the Tribunal, I was stopped and harassed at Immigration > > > while leaving India for the United States, and again on my re- > entry in > > > June. > > > > > > > > > > > > The targeting of the Tribunal has not abated since the > Amarnath issue > > > erupted around 23 June. The volatile proposal to transfer 800 > kanals of > > > land to the Shrine Board, revoked on 01 July, was supported by the > > > Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party and Hindu militant > Shiv Sena. > > > Despite the Sena's recent call to Hindus to form suicide > squads, it > > > faces no sanctions from the state. Kashmiris of diverse > ethnicities and > > > religions dissented the Amarnath land transfer. Community > leaders in > > > Kashmir explained that their stance against the proposal is > not in > > > dissent to Hindu pilgrims, but a repressive state. During the > Amarnath> > land transfer protests, civil disobedience paralleled > that of 1989, > > > amid severe repression. On 30 June, in curfew-like conditions, > we met > > > with two families in Srinagar who narrated that the police had > shot> > dead their sons. At one place, in the old city, while the > men took the > > > body for burial late at night, the police returned and destroyed > > > property and molested women. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 30 June, at about 10:10 pm, Parvez Imroz and his family were > > > attacked at home by state forces, who fired three shots and > hurled a > > > grenade while exiting when family and community interrupted their > > > attempts. Neighbours reported seeing one large armoured > vehicle and two > > > Gypsy cars, and men in CRPF (Central Reserve Police Force) and SOG > > > (Special Operations Group) uniforms. This murder attempt is an > > > escalation in the forms of state-led intimidation and > targeting aimed > > > at Advocate Imroz. It is an attempt to make the Tribunal > vulnerable and > > > instil fear in us in an attempt to stop this process. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 01 July, we met at Khurram Parvez's home before addressing > a press > > > conference. Outside, jeeps with plainclothes men continued their > > > observation, accompanied by a jeep with armed men in uniform. > Later,> > Advocate Imroz, Khurram Parvez, Advocate Mihir Desai, > and I went to the > > > police station to lodge a First Information Report. We were not > > > permitted to do so. For security reasons, Parvez Imroz is not > staying> > at home. Khurram Parvez remains under surveillance. I > must allow for > > > distance before revisiting the graves. On 04 July, sitting on > a plane > > > at Delhi International Airport, waiting to take-off, I > received a phone > > > call on my India mobile, caller 'Unknown': "Madam, we know you're > > > leaving. Think wisely before coming back". > > > > > > > > > > > > Orders to unnerve the leadership of the International Tribunal > by the > > > Government of India's intelligence and security administration > appear> > to be generated at the highest levels. The general > policy of > > > surveillance should not be used as a pretext to create > obstacles for > > > our work. As India argues for a seat on the United Nations > Security> > Council, the Government of India, as 'Frontline > Defenders' stated in > > > their recent alert supporting the Tribunal, must adhere to its own > > > repeated commitment to peace in Kashmir and international > conventions> > and laws. It must uphold democratic governance and > safeguard human > > > rights. > > > > > > > > > > > > Advocate Imroz, Khurram Parvez, other members of the Tribunal > team,> > have long experienced injustices for their extraordinary > work as human > > > rights defenders. A lauded human rights lawyer, Parvez Imroz has > > > survived two, now three, assassination attempts, the first from > > > militants. Since 2005, his passport has been denied. Khurram > Parvez> > lost his leg in a landmine incident. Gautam Navlakha and > Zahir-Ud-Din > > > have been intimidated and threatened, as has Mihir Desai, in their > > > larger work. It is noteworthy that the Government of India is > adding> > intimidation to the death and rape threats delivered me > by Hindu > > > extremists for human rights work. > > > > > > > > > > > > The work of the Tribunal is > > > an act of conscience and accountability, fraught with the > charge of > > > complex and violent histories. Its mandate, in documenting > Kashmir's> > present, is to chronicle the fabric of > militarisation, status of human > > > rights, and legal, political, militaristic 'states of > exception'. The > > > Tribunal's work will continue through the coming months. We have > > > received extensive solidarity from civil society; > victims/survivors, at > > > street corners, from villagers, ordinary citizens, those > committed to > > > justice. Each life in Kashmir has a story to tell. The > subjugation of > > > civil society has produced magnificent ethical resistance. The > state> > cannot combat every individual. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nearly two decades of genocidal violence record 70,000+ dead, > 8,000+> > disappeared, 60,000+ tortured, 50,000+ orphaned, > incalculable> > sexualised and gendered violence, a very high rate > of people with > > > suicidal behaviours; hundreds of thousands displaced; > violations of > > > promises, laws, conventions, agreements, treaties; mass > graves; mile > > > upon mile of barbed wire; fear, suppression of varied demands for > > > participation to determine Kashmir's future, spirals of violence, > > > protracted silence. Last year, Kashmir's only hospital with > services> > for mental health received 68,000 patients. Profound > social, economic, > > > and psychological consequences, and an intense isolation have > impacted> > private, public, and everyday life. It has generated > brutal resistance > > > on the part of groups that have engaged in violent militancy. > > > Repressions of struggles for self-determination and international > > > policies/politics have yielded severe consequences, creating a > juncture> > at which the failure of governance intersects with a > culture of grief. > > > > > > > > > > > > Torture survivors, non-militants and former militants, that I > met with > > > testified to the sadism of the forces. Reportedly, a man, hung > upside> > down, had petrol injected through his anus. Water- > boarding, mutilation, > > > rape of women, children, and men, starvation, psychological > torture.> > Brutalised, 'healed', to be brutalised again. An eagle > tattoo on the > > > arm of a man was reportedly identified by an army officer as a > symbol> > of Pakistan-held Azad Kashmir, even as the man clarified > the tattoo was > > > from his childhood. The skin containing it was burned. The > officer, the > > > man stated, said: "When you look at this, think of azadi". A > mother,> > reportedly asked to watch her daughter's rape by army > personnel,> > pleaded for her release. They refused. She pleaded > that she could not > > > watch, asking to be sent out of the room or be killed. We were > told> > that the soldier pointed a gun to her forehead, stating he > would grant > > > her wish, and shot her before they proceeded to rape the > daughter. We > > > also spoke with persons violated by militants. One man stated that > > > people's experiences with the reprehensible atrocities of > militancy do > > > not imply the abdication of their desire for self- > determination. This, > > > he stated, is a mistake the state makes, conflating militancy > with the > > > intent for self-determination. He clarified that neither is > > > self-determination an indication of allegiance to Pakistan, > largely to > > > the contrary. > > > > > > > > > > > > The continuing and daunting presence of military and paramilitary > > > forces, increased and sophisticated surveillance, merges with > pervasive> > and immense suffering and anger of people in > villages, towns, and > > > cities across Kashmir. Parallel to the presence of 500,0= 00 > troops and > > > commitment to nuclearisation, official figures state that > there are > > > about 450 militants in Kashmir and that demilitarisation is > underway.> > In March 2007, three government committees on > demilitarisation resolved > > > that the 'low intensity war continues', placing in limbo troop > > > reduction and the repealment of draconian laws -- the Armed Forces > > > Special Powers Act, 1958, imposed in Jammu and Kashmir in December > > > 1990, and the Disturbed Areas Act, 1976, enacted in 1992. Local > > > realities reflect that these laws and the military seek to > control the > > > general population with impunity. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kashmir is increasingly defined as a 'post-conflict' zone. > > > 'Post-conflict' is not the propagation of tourism toward an overt > > > display of nationalism. Post-conflict is a space in which to heal, > > > reflect, and enable civil society participation in determining > peace> > and justice. The graves speak to those that listen. Those > haunted by > > > history are called to remember. > > > > > > > > > > > > (Dr. > > > Angana Chatterji is associate professor of Social and Cultural > > > Anthropology at the California Institute of Integral Studies and > > > co-convener of the International People's Tribunal in Kashmir.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List archive: > > > > > > -- > > /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sun Jul 13 17:29:53 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 07:59:53 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar Message-ID: <4879EE39.90009@gmail.com> prakash ray wrote: > Their belief of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and > based on a report appeared in Times Now website. Or they might have fallen prey to the titillations of Marxist dialectical reasoning - I'm talking about the thing called "unity of opposites". But like shy fourteen-year-olds they only love her from a distance, don't know her at all! That's why they don't know that this thing called dialectics works for everything and everyone, except for a certain party of the Indian left, which transcends everything and everyone ... like God with a capital G. Sounds also like American exceptionalism ... sorry, I have put my foot in my mouth again! I mean, I have suggested that this epitome of left politics thinks like Uncle Sam, the dirty old man! Anyway, that's something the bearded old man didn't see, or foresee, because he lived so long ago. I mean not the old man in a stars-and-stripes hat, sporting a goatee kind of thing ... but the other one, with a full beard and no hat. Looks like there was no place for any kind of God in his way of thinking, but he was wrong, obviously. His ghost must see it now, because it must be as intelligent as he was, but it doesn't have access to the internet, so can't email an addendum or correction to his publishers ... these days, with no copyright any more, there are too many of them anyway. So it falls to that transcendent entity of our time, who/which resides in "party offices", to correct him in light of objective conditions in India, because, through its extrasensory link with the old man's ghost, it knows what that ghost is thinking now. It's a scandal that Shuddha and other liberated ones seem to be reading more than newspapers and the words of our contemporary God, who is actually Indian and lives in the "party office"! Tapas From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 13 17:32:26 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 05:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_FACT_Exhibition_at_IHC=E2=80=8F?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <550123.84621.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Ms Dube   If the BSP has "begun to ignore the demands of the majority of Dalits, the rural poor" as suggested, then the BSP I presume will lose 'that' vote and suffer in the elections. Rather, perhaps be wiped out since the majority support base of the BSP is Dalit and the majority of the Dalits are "poor" and the majority of the Dalits are "rural".   Why is it difficult to imagine that the Adivasis can emulate the BSP example? Does being "forest dependant" and being "non-urban" preclude the Advisasis from being able to take up collective political thought or action? Being "non-urban" at least, certainly does not prevent the majority of the people in India from participating in the political process.    You have mentioned that the "the adivasis (are seen as) .... footsoldiers of the Naxalite movement" and that there exists the "communitarian politics and political philosophy of the adivasis". Both comments suggest that there is "political awareness" amongst the adivasis.   Would the advisasis perhaps be better placed than the Dalits were?   The Adivasis are primarily on the fringes of the "social order" and can carve out a new and separate political space for themselves without such an initiative appearing to be directly threatening to already entrenched politics. You yourself have cited the examples of Jharkhand and Chattisgarh.    The Dalits on the other hand had to 'revolt'  and snatch political space form those very elements from who they faced the suppression. Quite a confrontation.   Just some thoughts.   Kshmendra     --- On Sun, 7/13/08, pankhuree dube wrote: From: pankhuree dube Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: FACT Exhibition at IHC‏ To: "Sarai" Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 2:53 AM Dear Mr. Sengupta,Thank you for your incisive critique of the IHC exhibit. I look forward to reading your contributions to this listserv and I am not disappointed by your comments on this discussion. I am curious to know why you think the Naxalite insurgency intensified in tribal areas after adivasis achieved their demands for statehood in Jharkhand and Chhattisgarh. I wonder if the Naxalite movement is tapping into a larger vein of discontent in rural India. Although the economic success of urban centers receives a lot of coverage in the Indian mainstream media, the continuing oppression of tribals, landless laborers and peasants tends to be ignored, or covered only intermittently. I see the Naxalite movement as merely one expression of the intensification of the rural-urban divide wherein urban centers continue to extract resources from the countryside, ignore rural development needs, and de-humanize those who face crushing poverty in these areas. Scholars like historian Ramachandra Guha and observers from the Asian Centre for Human Rights maintain that the adivasis are merely the foot-soldiers of the Naxalite movement which is led by a Commander Kosa based in Andhra Pradesh. I agree with your lack of sympathy for the violence employed by the Naxals. My interest is in the political solutions innovated by the adivasis themselves. I think the communitarian politics and political philosophy of the adivasis gets ignored by journalists who merely talk of the tribals as guerrillas or victims. In this regard, Mr. Kaul made an intriguing comment about the Dalits engaging in peaceful 'remedial measures' from within the political system, i.e through the Bahujan Samaj Party. But one criticism directed at the BSP is that they have begun to ignore the demands of the majority of Dalits, the rural poor. Since the adivasis in central India are generally forest-dependent and non-urban people, a BSP-type political solution may not be as attainable or even suitable for them. Organizing a political party may be easier for urban groups and also, less appropriate for a group (such as the tribals) that perceives the nation-state as an illegitimate, occupying force which sanctions oppression. So, my question for you and others is: What are the political solutions--which you may know of--being employed by adivasis, for adivasis? Such solutions get lost in all the talk of Naxalism and the distinction between adivasi activists and Maoists gets blurred by the mainstream media. I hope you can make sense of my jumble of thoughts! Pankhuree _________________________________________________________________ It’s a talkathon – but it’s not just talk. http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_JustTalk _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 13 18:07:22 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 05:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <98f331e00807120822j284b62c3u21fa8b74e148e6e5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <777599.53665.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear PK   "Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism." That sounds very very very "holier than thou" and pompous.   Questions for you:   1. Does IAEA Agreement automatically place India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" (my words) with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours?   2. Does successful negotiation with the NSG automatically place India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours?   3. Let us imagine that there is no USA, wouldn't India still have to go the IAEA and NSG route if it wants to freed of current (nuclear) restrictions on it? My answer is YES. What is yours?   4. Does help received from the USA with the IAEA and NSG place India under any Legal obligation to (nuclear) deal thereafter only or primarily with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours?    Kshmendra --- On Sat, 7/12/08, prakash ray wrote: From: prakash ray Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 8:52 PM Dear all, It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' ones (read Shuddha, Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the current debate over the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, have 'always' attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do not want to blame them for their political positions, but I would accuse them for their shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive contribution or position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves 'liberated' since we write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that our 'false sense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our handsome salaries and convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that a sin. However, I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' approach. Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not articulate their position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear sacredness. Their belief of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based on a report appeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that they believe what the TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or economic policies etc. Shivam could have researched on the matter since he is a reporter himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support extended by the Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting interviewed in the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes interviews of the politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of the Salwa Judum infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at regular intervention and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R Narayanan on the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in place of the customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, the right-wingers get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about the moderator or Shuddha himself? I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to the US administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I do not find any fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact that the US and Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do not think the readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault if someone sees the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I consider the nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on the poor and less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation against the policies and politics of the US. Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. Let me ask some simple questions: Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the Congress? Should the Left continue the support so that Dr Singh could go ahead with the Deal? Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit in elections if the Govt falls? Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left oppose or support everything only on the basis of the position taken by the BJP? Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology of the 'clash of civilizations'? Regards, Prakash _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 13 19:11:07 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 06:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] US kids in Taliban-backed madarsas in Pak (Karachi Kids) Message-ID: <832000.30436.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> 1.     Statement of Imran Raza Regarding Release of American Children From Pakistani Taliban Madrassa : http://www.karachikids.com/blog/statement-of-imran-raza-regarding-release-of-american-children-from-pakistani-taliban-madrassa.html   2. From : http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080056895   US kids in Taliban-backed madarsas in Pak   Press Trust of India Sunday, July 13, 2008 (Islamabad)   A Pakistani filmmaker has launched a campaign to secure the release of 78 American teenagers from a Taliban-backed madarsa in the country and asked the US to step in to check students enrolment in radical seminaries to close ''the pipeline to jihad''. Imran Raza, who helped secure the release of two US teenagers of Pakistani origin, found up to 80 other such boys and girls in Karachi-based Jamia Binoria madarsa while shooting Karachi Kids a documentary on American children in Pakistan's seminaries that will be released next week. Raza's film focuses on Noor Elahi Khan, 17, and Mahboob Elahi Khan, 16, the two brothers from Atlanta who were forced to study at Jamia Binoria. When he met them three years ago, the brothers wanted to take the ''first plane back to America''. Three years later, the boys had been ''brainwashed'' and said the madarsa had made them ''better human beings''. The siblings, who were enrolled in Jamia Binoria, considered one of the most radical seminaries in Pakistan, in August 2004, were well into their high school years when they were sent to Pakistan by their father. ''I am grateful for the safe return of the two American children to Atlanta from a Taliban-backed madarsa but the mullah claims to have up to 78 more in his institution. The headmaster comes to the US once a year and personally recruits Children brainwashed American children to enrol in his madrassa,'' Raza said in a statement on his website shortly after the release of the Khan brothers two days ago. ''The remaining 78 children must be returned to the US. This pipeline to jihad must be closed....It is imperative that members of Congress and the State Department undertake an accounting of just how many Americans are in the other 20,000 madarsas in Pakistan. Hundreds remain behind,'' Raza said. Raza's documentary Karachi Kids has been getting rave reviews and he is also running a campaign on his website karachikids.com asking people to help ''spread the word''. He encourages Internet surfers to display a Karachi Kids Banner on their blogs or join an affiliate programme to help free other American children of Pakistani descent who are still at madarsas. Raza decided to make the documentary shortly after it was found that three of the four suicide bombers who carried out bombings in London were British nationals of Pakistani descent and two attended madarsas in Pakistan. US-based Raza has since been joined by many others in his campaign. US Congressman Michael McCaul personally urged Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf to help free the Khan brothers and have them returned to the US. McCaul is also calling for the return of others children like them. The NGO South Asia Foundation for Educational Reform has been floated to raise global awareness about madarsas, specifically their growing attraction to and recruitment of Americans and boys from other Western nations. SAFER is focused on the growing number of American youngsters, predominantly of Pakistani descent, being sent by their parents to madarsas in their ancestral homeland. Jamia Binoria prominently displays a banner supporting the Taliban and it is documented that Osama bin Laden spoke to students at Jamia Binoria before the 9/11 attacks. ''Another distinguishing feature of Binoria is that it is known to recruit Americans most aggressively, probably for their fluency in English which will help them 'hide' back in American society when they are graduated,'' wrote Bernard Kerik, the contributing editor of FamilySecurityMatters.org, who has also joined Raza's campaign. ''It is believed that there are another 600 American boys currently being educated in 22 madarsas throughout Pakistan... They are known to mass-produce extremists with a political agenda, including a cripplingly narrow view of society and zero tolerance of western culture. They radicalize Muslim youth and are seminaries for violent jihad.'' In a trailer for Raza's documentary, the headmaster of Jamia Binoria states, ''We work on altering the mindset of the students we are training, so when they return to their home countries, their mindset is such that they will work on altering the minds of others. ''That is why I'm appealing to you that at least 1000 to 2000 boys come to us so we can train them and they will go back to their home countries and do the work and make people understand.'' More than 100 American children have already graduated from his indoctrination programme. From kranenbu at xs4all.nl Sun Jul 13 21:00:34 2008 From: kranenbu at xs4all.nl (Rob van Kranenburg) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 17:30:34 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] two strange stories about women in india In-Reply-To: <832000.30436.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <832000.30436.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <487A1F9A.908@xs4all.nl> hi, i can not make sense of it, but maybe someone can: two strange stories about women in india: one on the ratio male - female http://www.actionaid.org.uk/doc_lib/disappearing_daughters_0608.pdf http://www.punjabnewsline.com/content/view/10896/93/ http://actionaidindia.org/camp_violence.htm and one very scary ad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKEF-8XkWMU http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/skinwhitening-adverts-ignite-race-row-in-india-863936.html greetings, rob From tapasrayx at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 04:51:28 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 19:21:28 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar Message-ID: <487A8DF8.9020303@gmail.com> PS to my last post, which I have quoted below this one: I should have explained that the unity of opposites I was talking about, is the opposition's stand on the agreement and the nuclear weapons issue in general, which is based on two opposing views of global politics. CPI(M) looks at the USA as the main enemy, not China, which in its eyes is a good, friendly dada (big brother of the neighbourhood for those who don't know Bengali or Hindi). BJP, on the other hand, looks at China and Pakistan as enemies, and the USA as a friendly giant, if not quite a gentle one. One other thing. It just occurred to me that those who want to abolish nuclear weapons everywhere, may need to do two contradictory things at one and the same time. I mean they need to put pressure on India to denuclearise, of course. But for global denuking, they need to support India's nuclear weapons programme. I know this sounds absurd, but here's the logic: If India keeps making bombs, pointing out that it's entitled to that if the big ones can have huge stockpiles, then people in those countries will increase pressure on their governments to denuclearise. Because if those countries do that, India and others will not have that excuse or reason (depending how one looks at it). Same goes for nuclear power, greenhouse emissions, etc. I know my brain is probably in a tangle and I should "take a flight out of town" (Mayall?) but don't know where exactly that tangle is, and can't afford to take that flight right now. So, I would appreciate it if someone could help me get it untangled. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 07:59:53 -0400 From: Tapas Ray To: sarai list prakash ray wrote: > Their belief of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and > based on a report appeared in Times Now website. Or they might have fallen prey to the titillations of Marxist dialectical reasoning - I'm talking about the thing called "unity of opposites". But like shy fourteen-year-olds they only love her from a distance, don't know her at all! That's why they don't know that this thing called dialectics works for everything and everyone, except for a certain party of the Indian left, which transcends everything and everyone ... like God with a capital G. Sounds also like American exceptionalism ... sorry, I have put my foot in my mouth again! I mean, I have suggested that this epitome of left politics thinks like Uncle Sam, the dirty old man! Anyway, that's something the bearded old man didn't see, or foresee, because he lived so long ago. I mean not the old man in a stars-and-stripes hat, sporting a goatee kind of thing ... but the other one, with a full beard and no hat. Looks like there was no place for any kind of God in his way of thinking, but he was wrong, obviously. His ghost must see it now, because it must be as intelligent as he was, but it doesn't have access to the internet, so can't email an addendum or correction to his publishers ... these days, with no copyright any more, there are too many of them anyway. So it falls to that transcendent entity of our time, who/which resides in "party offices", to correct him in light of objective conditions in India, because, through its extrasensory link with the old man's ghost, it knows what that ghost is thinking now. It's a scandal that Shuddha and other liberated ones seem to be reading more than newspapers and the words of our contemporary God, who is actually Indian and lives in the "party office"! Tapas From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Mon Jul 14 12:31:49 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:01:49 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <487A8DF8.9020303@gmail.com> References: <487A8DF8.9020303@gmail.com> Message-ID: Tapas, let me assure you there is nothing wrong in your thought process as to left and BJP voting against the UPA on nuclear "deal", for it is quite clear that this "deal" is not in the national interest. For left as you rightly feel that America is the bully, in the comity of nations which has leaders like Bush, who maintain that you are with us or you are enemy of ours. PM Manmohan Singh who was with Bush with his economics of disaster, is more dangersous than the "communal" BJP as he has only his dishonest economic theories of fudging figures of wholesale price index with a planning commission latchey of his Monteksingh who is known for his silver tongue to please the politicians and stay in power when he should have ben sent to mental asylum for his policies of exclusive growth, when his mentor talks of inclusive growth. Loans availed from world bank and ADB have been consistently misused to enrich the hangers on and sycophants in awarding contracts, the ministers in UPA have amassed wealth which will be shame on the nation for future generations to be concerned about. As Raja as minister of telecom sells spectrum to his cronies for political considerations, national exchequer is loosing billion crores, as minister of surface transport, diverts money to his contractor funds, the highways are looting points without repairs and maintainanace, kafan chori is nothing compared to the loot that is now rampant in UPA rule. The very nuclear deal is a deal to get perpetual kickbacks for triliion dollars as the contracts for purchase have to vetted in Washington with cartel selling uranium. When deal is personal interest of a Mr. Honest for personal gains of a family, how it can be in national interest.? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tapas Ray Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 4:52 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: sarai list > PS to my last post, which I have quoted below this one: > > I should have explained that the unity of opposites I was talking > about, > is the opposition's stand on the agreement and the nuclear weapons > issue > in general, which is based on two opposing views of global > politics. > CPI(M) looks at the USA as the main enemy, not China, which in its > eyes > is a good, friendly dada (big brother of the neighbourhood for > those who > don't know Bengali or Hindi). BJP, on the other hand, looks at > China and > Pakistan as enemies, and the USA as a friendly giant, if not quite > a > gentle one. > > One other thing. It just occurred to me that those who want to > abolish > nuclear weapons everywhere, may need to do two contradictory > things at > one and the same time. I mean they need to put pressure on India > to > denuclearise, of course. But for global denuking, they need to > support > India's nuclear weapons programme. I know this sounds absurd, but > here's > the logic: If India keeps making bombs, pointing out that it's > entitled > to that if the big ones can have huge stockpiles, then people in > those > countries will increase pressure on their governments to > denuclearise. > Because if those countries do that, India and others will not have > that > excuse or reason (depending how one looks at it). Same goes for > nuclear > power, greenhouse emissions, etc. > > I know my brain is probably in a tangle and I should "take a > flight out > of town" (Mayall?) but don't know where exactly that tangle is, > and > can't afford to take that flight right now. So, I would appreciate > it if > someone could help me get it untangled. > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 07:59:53 -0400 > From: Tapas Ray > To: sarai list > > prakash ray wrote: > > Their belief of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and > > based on a report appeared in Times Now website. > > Or they might have fallen prey to the titillations of Marxist > dialectical reasoning - I'm talking about the thing called "unity of > opposites". But like shy fourteen-year-olds they only love her > from a > distance, don't know her at all! That's why they don't know that this > thing called dialectics works for everything and everyone, except > for a > certain party of the Indian left, which transcends everything and > everyone ... like God with a capital G. Sounds also like American > exceptionalism ... sorry, I have put my foot in my mouth again! I > mean,I have suggested that this epitome of left politics thinks > like Uncle > Sam, the dirty old man! Anyway, that's something the bearded old man > didn't see, or foresee, because he lived so long ago. I mean not > the old > man in a stars-and-stripes hat, sporting a goatee kind of thing > ... but > the other one, with a full beard and no hat. Looks like there was no > place for any kind of God in his way of thinking, but he was wrong, > obviously. His ghost must see it now, because it must be as > intelligentas he was, but it doesn't have access to the internet, > so can't email an > addendum or correction to his publishers ... these days, with no > copyright any more, there are too many of them anyway. So it falls to > that transcendent entity of our time, who/which resides in "party > offices", to correct him in light of objective conditions in India, > because, through its extrasensory link with the old man's ghost, it > knows what that ghost is thinking now. > > It's a scandal that Shuddha and other liberated ones seem to be > readingmore than newspapers and the words of our contemporary God, > who is > actually Indian and lives in the "party office"! > > Tapas > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Mon Jul 14 12:38:25 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:08:25 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <777599.53665.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <98f331e00807120822j284b62c3u21fa8b74e148e6e5@mail.gmail.com> <777599.53665.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Kshemendra, your questions are basically utopian and answers given by you are only theoratical and not practical, after the citizens of the world have seen how if you are with America, you have to be ready to recieve body bags for the misadventure of America for its leaders folly in Afghanistan and Iraq. Australian PM Howard was seen by his citizens as lapdog of Bush, do you need a hairy happy lapdog of our PM on the lap of american president.? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:07 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear PK >   > "Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism." > That sounds very very very "holier than thou" and pompous. >   > Questions for you: >   > 1. Does IAEA Agreement automatically place India in your feared > "unholy matrimomy" (my words) with the USA? My answer is NO. What > is yours? >   > 2. Does successful negotiation with the NSG automatically place > India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" with the USA? My answer is > NO. What is yours? >   > 3. Let us imagine that there is no USA, wouldn't India still have > to go the IAEA and NSG route if it wants to freed of current > (nuclear) restrictions on it? My answer is YES. What is yours? >   > 4. Does help received from the USA with the IAEA and NSG place > India under any Legal obligation to (nuclear) deal thereafter only > or primarily with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours?  >   > Kshmendra > > > --- On Sat, 7/12/08, prakash ray wrote: > > From: prakash ray > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 8:52 PM > > Dear all, > > It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' ones (read > Shuddha, > Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the current > debate over > the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, have > 'always'attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do not want > to blame them for > their political positions, but I would accuse them for their > shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive > contribution or > position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves 'liberated' since > we > write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that our > 'falsesense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our handsome > salaries and > convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that a > sin. However, > I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' approach. > > Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not > articulate their > position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear sacredness. > Their belief > of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based on a > reportappeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that they > believe what the > TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or economic > policiesetc. Shivam could have researched on the matter since he > is a reporter > himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support extended > by the > Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting > interviewed in > the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every > newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes interviews > of the > politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of the > Salwa Judum > infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at regular > intervention > and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R > Narayanan on > the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in place of the > customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, the > right-wingers > get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about the moderator > or > Shuddha himself? > > I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to the US > administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and > continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I do not > find any > fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact that > the US and > Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do not > think the > readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault if > someone sees > the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I consider the > nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on the > poor and > less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation > against the > policies and politics of the US. > > Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. > > Let me ask some simple questions: > > Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the Congress? > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr Singh could go > ahead with > the Deal? > Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit in > elections if > the Govt falls? > Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left oppose or > supporteverything only on the basis of the position taken by the BJP? > Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology of the > 'clash of > civilizations'? > > Regards, > Prakash > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 14 14:24:26 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 01:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <325355.96434.qm@web57212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Radhikarajen   Questions have a questioning in them so they cannot be Utopian. If my answers sounded Utopian to you, then I would disagree with you that they are so.   You seemed to have missed the point (completely) in my questions and my answers:   1. Going through the IAEA and NSG routines does not in any way whatsoever mean that you have entered into the (legally enforceable) deal with the USA. Do you disagree?   2. Successfully going through the IAEA and NSG routines leaves India better placed to enter into a deal or deals with any country of (nuclear) interest, an access which is currently blocked. USA need not be one such country that India "deals' with. Do you disagree?   Whether USA is an 'angelic' entity or a 'satanic' one does not come into the picture.     Kshmendra   --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 12:38 PM Kshemendra, your questions are basically utopian and answers given by you are only theoratical and not practical, after the citizens of the world have seen how if you are with America, you have to be ready to recieve body bags for the misadventure of America for its leaders folly in Afghanistan and Iraq. Australian PM Howard was seen by his citizens as lapdog of Bush, do you need a hairy happy lapdog of our PM on the lap of american president.? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:07 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear PK >   > "Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism." > That sounds very very very "holier than thou" and pompous. >   > Questions for you: >   > 1. Does IAEA Agreement automatically place India in your feared > "unholy matrimomy" (my words) with the USA? My answer is NO. What > is yours? >   > 2. Does successful negotiation with the NSG automatically place > India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" with the USA? My answer is > NO. What is yours? >   > 3. Let us imagine that there is no USA, wouldn't India still have > to go the IAEA and NSG route if it wants to freed of current > (nuclear) restrictions on it? My answer is YES. What is yours? >   > 4. Does help received from the USA with the IAEA and NSG place > India under any Legal obligation to (nuclear) deal thereafter only > or primarily with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours?  >   > Kshmendra > > > --- On Sat, 7/12/08, prakash ray wrote: > > From: prakash ray > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 8:52 PM > > Dear all, > > It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' ones (read > Shuddha, > Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the current > debate over > the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, have > 'always'attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do not want > to blame them for > their political positions, but I would accuse them for their > shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive > contribution or > position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves 'liberated' since > we > write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that our > 'falsesense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our handsome > salaries and > convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that a > sin. However, > I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' approach. > > Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not > articulate their > position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear sacredness. > Their belief > of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based on a > reportappeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that they > believe what the > TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or economic > policiesetc. Shivam could have researched on the matter since he > is a reporter > himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support extended > by the > Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting > interviewed in > the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every > newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes interviews > of the > politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of the > Salwa Judum > infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at regular > intervention > and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R > Narayanan on > the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in place of the > customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, the > right-wingers > get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about the moderator > or > Shuddha himself? > > I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to the US > administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and > continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I do not > find any > fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact that > the US and > Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do not > think the > readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault if > someone sees > the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I consider the > nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on the > poor and > less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation > against the > policies and politics of the US. > > Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. > > Let me ask some simple questions: > > Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the Congress? > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr Singh could go > ahead with > the Deal? > Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit in > elections if > the Govt falls? > Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left oppose or > supporteverything only on the basis of the position taken by the BJP? > Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology of the > 'clash of > civilizations'? > > Regards, > Prakash > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Mon Jul 14 16:05:20 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:35:20 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <325355.96434.qm@web57212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <325355.96434.qm@web57212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Kshemendra, yes, questions have questions in them, agreeable thoughts, how is it that these questions of nuclear deal were shrouded in darkness of classified lines for well over two years keeping the citizens in dark. ? Why suddenly now advertisements in media about the good deal that our Mr. Honest is keen about the deal. ? What prevented Mr. Honest to have a honest discussion of the deal in media and parliament instead of blanket answers that the deal is good, is in the national interest.? In any democracy, the classified documents are put to open domain after a period of certain number of years. they are de-classified for the citizens to know about the ommissions and commissions of the decision making process in democratic rule of that nation. India is perhaps one of the very few democratic countries which has not de-classified its classified documents till date even after being a free nation. In such a situation, the policy makers, the executors of the policies and the citizens who have a right to know the procedure of rule of laws are manipulating the records to suit their selfish interests, ? Even in UK and USA the documents are classified once they are archived after thirty years, that is documents upto 1978 are declassified that, the citizens know the misadventure or the good acts of babus, politicians and all. Such is the power of the citizens, that future babus and politicians will be well informed of the mistakes of the past. Do we have this in place. ? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 2:25 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear Radhikarajen >   > Questions have a questioning in them so they cannot be Utopian. If > my answers sounded Utopian to you, then I would disagree with you > that they are so. >   > You seemed to have missed the point (completely) in my questions > and my answers: >   > 1. Going through the IAEA and NSG routines does not in any way > whatsoever mean that you have entered into the (legally > enforceable) deal with the USA. Do you disagree? >   > 2. Successfully going through the IAEA and NSG routines leaves > India better placed to enter into a deal or deals with any country > of (nuclear) interest, an access which is currently blocked. USA > need not be one such country that India "deals' with. Do you disagree? >   > Whether USA is an 'angelic' entity or a 'satanic' one does not > come into the picture. >   >   > Kshmendra >   > > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net > wrote: > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 12:38 PM > > Kshemendra, > > your questions are basically utopian and answers given by you > are only > theoratical and not practical, after the citizens of the world > have seen how if > you are with America, you have to be ready to recieve body bags > for the > misadventure of America for its leaders folly in Afghanistan and > Iraq.Australian PM Howard was seen by his citizens as lapdog of > Bush, do you need a > hairy happy lapdog of our PM on the lap of american president.? > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:07 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Dear PK > >   > > "Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism." > > That sounds very very very "holier than thou" and pompous. > >   > > Questions for you: > >   > > 1. Does IAEA Agreement automatically place India in your feared > > "unholy matrimomy" (my words) with the USA? My answer is NO. > What > > is yours? > >   > > 2. Does successful negotiation with the NSG automatically place > > India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" with the USA? My answer > is > > NO. What is yours? > >   > > 3. Let us imagine that there is no USA, wouldn't India still > have > > to go the IAEA and NSG route if it wants to freed of current > > (nuclear) restrictions on it? My answer is YES. What is yours? > >   > > 4. Does help received from the USA with the IAEA and NSG place > > India under any Legal obligation to (nuclear) deal thereafter > only > > or primarily with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours?  > >   > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Sat, 7/12/08, prakash ray wrote: > > > > From: prakash ray > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 8:52 PM > > > > Dear all, > > > > It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' ones (read > > Shuddha, > > Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the current > > debate over > > the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, have > > 'always'attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do not > want > > to blame them for > > their political positions, but I would accuse them for their > > shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive > > contribution or > > position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves 'liberated' > since > > we > > write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that our > > 'falsesense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our handsome > > salaries and > > convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that a > > sin. However, > > I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' approach. > > > > Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not > > articulate their > > position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear sacredness. > > Their belief > > of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based on > a > > reportappeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that they > > believe what the > > TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or > economic > > policiesetc. Shivam could have researched on the matter since he > > is a reporter > > himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support > extended > > by the > > Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting > > interviewed in > > the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every > > newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes interviews > > of the > > politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of the > > Salwa Judum > > infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at regular > > intervention > > and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R > > Narayanan on > > the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in place of the > > customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, the > > right-wingers > > get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about the > moderator > > or > > Shuddha himself? > > > > I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to the US > > administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and > > continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I do > not > > find any > > fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact > that > > the US and > > Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do not > > think the > > readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault if > > someone sees > > the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I > consider the > > nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on the > > poor and > > less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation > > against the > > policies and politics of the US. > > > > Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. > > > > Let me ask some simple questions: > > > > Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the Congress? > > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr Singh could go > > ahead with > > the Deal? > > Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit in > > elections if > > the Govt falls? > > Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left oppose or > > supporteverything only on the basis of the position taken by the > BJP?> Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology of > the > > 'clash of > > civilizations'? > > > > Regards, > > Prakash > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Jul 14 17:19:57 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 17:19:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Indian Kashmir In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70807130108xf1a2178s79d8c29ebe9a1bcd@mail.gmail.com> References: <430165.49542.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <9c06aab30807121034y1a80823n469aad76329ce415@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807130108xf1a2178s79d8c29ebe9a1bcd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807140449o38767457j4133c61c01d45254@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, The tribunal is only demanding an enquiry to establish whose graves these are. Why is the security establishment afraid of an enquiry? "Unidentified" and 'unidentifiable', are, by the way, also terms used in the discourse on the Pandit killings. See http://shivamvij.com/2008/05/10/report-on-pandit-killings-rekindles-communal-fissures-in-valley/ best shivam On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 1:38 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Shivam , > > During the days os mass insurgencies , encounters at border discrict were > very common . it ususally happened when the terrorists used to sneak into > India in large groups. > > In each encounter , scores of people used to die .Many bodies would remain > unidentified and police but usual used to bury them. > > If today , a different story is eing made of those graves , the rest of > world should be made aware of the past instead of sensationalising the issue > to create more distrust and hate. > > Regards > > Pawan > > > On 7/12/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> Dear Khurram, >> >> Thanks for posting this. The Delhi media's conspiracy of silence >> around human rights violations in Kashmir, as also the intimidation of >> those like you who seek to defend human rights, sadly seems reflected >> on this list - this list seems to endlessly list the sentiments of >> some and is silent on an article like this. >> >> best >> shivam >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Khurram Parvez >> wrote: >> > >> > A PDF of the article with photos can be found on the Tribunal website >> > at: >> > >> > http://kashmirprocess.org/news/20080708_MassGravesKashmirChatterji.pdf >> > >> > >> > >> > Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Indian Kashmir >> > >> > Etala'at, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar, 09 July 2008 >> > >> > http://etalaat.com/english/Dimensions/1531.html >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Dirt, rubble, thick grass, hillside and flatland, crowded with graves. >> > Signifiers of military and paramilitary terror, masked from the world. >> > Constructed by institutions of state to conceal massacre. Placed next >> > to homes, fields, schools, an army practise range. Unknown, unmarked. >> > Over 940 graves in a segment of Baramulla district alone. Some >> > containing more than one cadaver. Dug by locals, coerced by the police, >> > on village land. Bodies dragged through the night, some tortured, >> > burnt, desecrated. Circulating mythology claims these graves uniformly >> > house 'foreign militants'. Exhumation and identification have not >> > occurred in most cases. When undertaken, in sizable instances, records >> > prove the dead to be local people, ordinary citizens, killed in fake >> > encounters. In instances where bodies have been identified as local, >> > non-militant and militant, it demystifies state rhetoric that rumours >> > these persons to be 'foreign militants', propagating misrepresentation >> > that the demand for self-determination is prevailingly external. >> > Mourned, cared for, by locals, as 'farz'/duty, as part of an >> > obligation, stated repeatedly, to 'azadi'. 'Azadi'/freedom to determine >> > self and future. >> > >> > >> > >> > On 18 and 20 June, the International People's Tribunal on Human Rights >> > and Justice in Indian-administered Kashmir ('Tribunal', convened in >> > April 2008, www.kashmirprocess.org) visited Baramulla and Kupwara >> > district to conduct ongoing fact-finding and verification related to >> > mass graves at the behest of local communities. The team comprised of >> > Tribunal Conveners Advocate Parvez Imroz and myself, a staff member, >> > and camera crew. >> > >> > >> > >> > On 18 June, we visited Raja Mohalla in Uri, Baramulla district, 110 >> > kilometres from Srinagar, where 22 graves were constructed between >> > 1996-1997. Then to Quazipora, where 13 bodies were stated as buried in >> > seven graves in 1991. Then we travelled to Chehal, Bimyar village, Uri, >> > holding 235 graves. We re-met Atta Mohammad, gravedigger and caretaker >> > at Chehal, who testified that these bodies, brought by the police, >> > primarily after dark, were buried between 2002-2006. Atta Mohammad said >> > that the bodies appear in his nightmares, each in graphic, gruesome >> > detail. Terrorised by the task forced upon him, his nights are bereft >> > of sleep. Then we travelled to Mir Mohalla, Kichama, Sheeri, to the >> > main graveyard with 105 graves, stated to hold about 225-250 bodies, >> > buried between 1994-2003, and a smaller graveyard, with nine graves, >> > adjacent to a sign proclaiming it a 'Model Village'. >> > >> > >> > >> > On 20 June, we visited the northern district of Kupwara. On the way we >> > witnessed army convoys, including one of 21+ vehicles. Created in 1979 >> > through the forking of Baramulla district, approximately 5,000 feet >> > above sea level, Kupwara borders the Line-of-Control to the north and >> > west. Between Shamsbari and Pirpanchal mountain ranges, it is one of >> > the most heavily militarised zones, about 95 kilometres from Srinagar. >> > Kupwara houses six army camps, as military and paramilitary forces >> > occupy significant land. Seven interrogation centres have been >> > operational with police stations functioning as additional >> > interrogation cells. In Hundwara town, a watchtower surveils and >> > regulates movement. >> > >> > >> > >> > In Kupwara, we visited Trehgam village, holding 85-100 graves, 24 of >> > which are identified, and spoke with community members. Trehgam was >> > home to Maqbool Bhat (b. 1938), founding figure of the Jammu Kashmir >> > National Liberation Front. Acknowledged as Shaheed-e-Kashmir, Bhat is >> > labelled a 'terrorist' by certain segments of India. He sought to unite >> > the territories of the former princely state of Jammu and Kashmir into >> > a secular, sovereign, democratic state. Bhat was sentenced to death by >> > the Supreme Court of India and hanged in Tihar jail in New Delhi on 11 >> > February 1984. Maqbool Bhat's nephew, Parvaiz Ahmad Bhat, reminded us >> > that Habibullah Bhat, Bhat's brother, was the first case of enforced >> > disappearance before 1989. >> > >> > >> > >> > After Trehgam, we reached Regipora around 3 pm and stopped for lunch. >> > There, two persons introduced themselves as Special Branch Kashmir >> > (SBK) and Counter Intelligence Kashmir (CIK) personnel, and questioned >> > the Tribunal staff member about our visit. After responding, we >> > proceeded to the 'martyrs' graveyard' holding 258 graves, constructed >> > in 1995. This burial ground is meticulously ordered, each grave >> > numbered. The body of a 20-25 year old youth was buried in the first >> > week of June, reportedly killed in an encounter in Bamhama village. >> > >> > >> > >> > We stopped at a roadside tea stall to speak with local people about the >> > graves. Four intelligence personnel questioned us, asking we disclose >> > information about those we had visited. Soon, four additional SBK and >> > CIK personnel joined the questioning. Other intelligence personnel made >> > phone calls. By then, about 12 intelligence personnel gathered. >> > Following further questioning we proceeded toward Srinagar. A car >> > followed at a distance. >> > >> > >> > >> > We detoured to Sadipora, Kandi, where locals stated that around 20 >> > bodies were buried. The graveyard, overrun with wild flowers, is part >> > of a larger ground used during festivals, including Id. Two of four >> > bodies, killed in a fake encounter on 29 April 2007, were exhumed, >> > identified as locals, contrary to police records stating them to be >> > 'Pakistani terrorists'. Saidipora holds Riyaz Ahmad Bhat's grave, >> > killed in the encounter, age 19. Police records, per the First >> > Information Report, declared him a 'Pakistani terrorist'. Riyaz Bhat >> > was identified by Javeed Ahmed, his brother, as a resident of >> > Kalashpora, Srinagar, based on police photographs from the time of >> > death. Ahmed travelled with the Tribunal to take us to his brother's >> > grave. On his knees Javeed attempted to clear the thick brush. Later, >> > in Srinagar, he testified that Bhat had never been involved in >> > militancy. Javeed spoke of grieving, of imprisonment and beatings at >> > the police station. He asked how he could have saved his brother from >> > death. >> > >> > >> > >> > After Sadiapora, we were stopped at Shangargund, Sopore, at about 6.40 >> > pm, by three persons in civilian clothing. They forcibly boarded the >> > car. We were ordered to the Sopore Police Station. There we were asked >> > to detail our identity, employment, the purpose of the visit, and to >> > hand over tapes which, the police alleged, contained 'dangerous' and >> > 'objectionable' material. We stated that the Tribunal, a public >> > process, was undertaking its work peaceably, lawfully, with informed >> > consent, and that we had not visited restricted areas. We stated that >> > the police had no lawful reason to seize the tapes. We were detained >> > for 16 minutes. After several calls to senior police persons, we were >> > released. A red Indica car followed us to Sangrama. At Srinagar, >> > Intelligence personnel were stationed at my hotel. On 21 June, I was >> > followed from the hotel to the Tribunal's office in Lal Chowk, where >> > about 8 personnel were stationed the entire day questioning anyone who >> > entered or left the office. >> > >> > >> > >> > My mother, residing in Calcutta, received a query regarding my >> > whereabouts from the District Magistrate's Office. I was followed to >> > the Srinagar airport on 22 June, and questioned, asked if I possessed >> > dual citizenship. I do not. I am a citizen of India and a permanent >> > resident of the United States. On 24 June, I arrived in Bhubaneswar to >> > submit a statement to the Commission of Inquiry on the Kandhamal >> > violence against Christians in 2007 in Orissa. There too, Central >> > Intelligence officials persistently inquired after me. In April, after >> > announcing the Tribunal, I was stopped and harassed at Immigration >> > while leaving India for the United States, and again on my re-entry in >> > June. >> > >> > >> > >> > The targeting of the Tribunal has not abated since the Amarnath issue >> > erupted around 23 June. The volatile proposal to transfer 800 kanals of >> > land to the Shrine Board, revoked on 01 July, was supported by the >> > Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party and Hindu militant Shiv Sena. >> > Despite the Sena's recent call to Hindus to form suicide squads, it >> > faces no sanctions from the state. Kashmiris of diverse ethnicities and >> > religions dissented the Amarnath land transfer. Community leaders in >> > Kashmir explained that their stance against the proposal is not in >> > dissent to Hindu pilgrims, but a repressive state. During the Amarnath >> > land transfer protests, civil disobedience paralleled that of 1989, >> > amid severe repression. On 30 June, in curfew-like conditions, we met >> > with two families in Srinagar who narrated that the police had shot >> > dead their sons. At one place, in the old city, while the men took the >> > body for burial late at night, the police returned and destroyed >> > property and molested women. >> > >> > >> > >> > On 30 June, at about 10:10 pm, Parvez Imroz and his family were >> > attacked at home by state forces, who fired three shots and hurled a >> > grenade while exiting when family and community interrupted their >> > attempts. Neighbours reported seeing one large armoured vehicle and two >> > Gypsy cars, and men in CRPF (Central Reserve Police Force) and SOG >> > (Special Operations Group) uniforms. This murder attempt is an >> > escalation in the forms of state-led intimidation and targeting aimed >> > at Advocate Imroz. It is an attempt to make the Tribunal vulnerable and >> > instil fear in us in an attempt to stop this process. >> > >> > >> > >> > On 01 July, we met at Khurram Parvez's home before addressing a press >> > conference. Outside, jeeps with plainclothes men continued their >> > observation, accompanied by a jeep with armed men in uniform. Later, >> > Advocate Imroz, Khurram Parvez, Advocate Mihir Desai, and I went to the >> > police station to lodge a First Information Report. We were not >> > permitted to do so. For security reasons, Parvez Imroz is not staying >> > at home. Khurram Parvez remains under surveillance. I must allow for >> > distance before revisiting the graves. On 04 July, sitting on a plane >> > at Delhi International Airport, waiting to take-off, I received a phone >> > call on my India mobile, caller 'Unknown': "Madam, we know you're >> > leaving. Think wisely before coming back". >> > >> > >> > >> > Orders to unnerve the leadership of the International Tribunal by the >> > Government of India's intelligence and security administration appear >> > to be generated at the highest levels. The general policy of >> > surveillance should not be used as a pretext to create obstacles for >> > our work. As India argues for a seat on the United Nations Security >> > Council, the Government of India, as 'Frontline Defenders' stated in >> > their recent alert supporting the Tribunal, must adhere to its own >> > repeated commitment to peace in Kashmir and international conventions >> > and laws. It must uphold democratic governance and safeguard human >> > rights. >> > >> > >> > >> > Advocate Imroz, Khurram Parvez, other members of the Tribunal team, >> > have long experienced injustices for their extraordinary work as human >> > rights defenders. A lauded human rights lawyer, Parvez Imroz has >> > survived two, now three, assassination attempts, the first from >> > militants. Since 2005, his passport has been denied. Khurram Parvez >> > lost his leg in a landmine incident. Gautam Navlakha and Zahir-Ud-Din >> > have been intimidated and threatened, as has Mihir Desai, in their >> > larger work. It is noteworthy that the Government of India is adding >> > intimidation to the death and rape threats delivered me by Hindu >> > extremists for human rights work. >> > >> > >> > >> > The work of the Tribunal is >> > an act of conscience and accountability, fraught with the charge of >> > complex and violent histories. Its mandate, in documenting Kashmir's >> > present, is to chronicle the fabric of militarisation, status of human >> > rights, and legal, political, militaristic 'states of exception'. The >> > Tribunal's work will continue through the coming months. We have >> > received extensive solidarity from civil society; victims/survivors, at >> > street corners, from villagers, ordinary citizens, those committed to >> > justice. Each life in Kashmir has a story to tell. The subjugation of >> > civil society has produced magnificent ethical resistance. The state >> > cannot combat every individual. >> > >> > >> > >> > Nearly two decades of genocidal violence record 70,000+ dead, 8,000+ >> > disappeared, 60,000+ tortured, 50,000+ orphaned, incalculable >> > sexualised and gendered violence, a very high rate of people with >> > suicidal behaviours; hundreds of thousands displaced; violations of >> > promises, laws, conventions, agreements, treaties; mass graves; mile >> > upon mile of barbed wire; fear, suppression of varied demands for >> > participation to determine Kashmir's future, spirals of violence, >> > protracted silence. Last year, Kashmir's only hospital with services >> > for mental health received 68,000 patients. Profound social, economic, >> > and psychological consequences, and an intense isolation have impacted >> > private, public, and everyday life. It has generated brutal resistance >> > on the part of groups that have engaged in violent militancy. >> > Repressions of struggles for self-determination and international >> > policies/politics have yielded severe consequences, creating a juncture >> > at which the failure of governance intersects with a culture of grief. >> > >> > >> > >> > Torture survivors, non-militants and former militants, that I met with >> > testified to the sadism of the forces. Reportedly, a man, hung upside >> > down, had petrol injected through his anus. Water-boarding, mutilation, >> > rape of women, children, and men, starvation, psychological torture. >> > Brutalised, 'healed', to be brutalised again. An eagle tattoo on the >> > arm of a man was reportedly identified by an army officer as a symbol >> > of Pakistan-held Azad Kashmir, even as the man clarified the tattoo was >> > from his childhood. The skin containing it was burned. The officer, the >> > man stated, said: "When you look at this, think of azadi". A mother, >> > reportedly asked to watch her daughter's rape by army personnel, >> > pleaded for her release. They refused. She pleaded that she could not >> > watch, asking to be sent out of the room or be killed. We were told >> > that the soldier pointed a gun to her forehead, stating he would grant >> > her wish, and shot her before they proceeded to rape the daughter. We >> > also spoke with persons violated by militants. One man stated that >> > people's experiences with the reprehensible atrocities of militancy do >> > not imply the abdication of their desire for self-determination. This, >> > he stated, is a mistake the state makes, conflating militancy with the >> > intent for self-determination. He clarified that neither is >> > self-determination an indication of allegiance to Pakistan, largely to >> > the contrary. >> > >> > >> > >> > The continuing and daunting presence of military and paramilitary >> > forces, increased and sophisticated surveillance, merges with pervasive >> > and immense suffering and anger of people in villages, towns, and >> > cities across Kashmir. Parallel to the presence of 500,000 troops and >> > commitment to nuclearisation, official figures state that there are >> > about 450 militants in Kashmir and that demilitarisation is underway. >> > In March 2007, three government committees on demilitarisation resolved >> > that the 'low intensity war continues', placing in limbo troop >> > reduction and the repealment of draconian laws -- the Armed Forces >> > Special Powers Act, 1958, imposed in Jammu and Kashmir in December >> > 1990, and the Disturbed Areas Act, 1976, enacted in 1992. Local >> > realities reflect that these laws and the military seek to control the >> > general population with impunity. >> > >> > >> > >> > Kashmir is increasingly defined as a 'post-conflict' zone. >> > 'Post-conflict' is not the propagation of tourism toward an overt >> > display of nationalism. Post-conflict is a space in which to heal, >> > reflect, and enable civil society participation in determining peace >> > and justice. The graves speak to those that listen. Those haunted by >> > history are called to remember. >> > >> > >> > >> > (Dr. >> > Angana Chatterji is associate professor of Social and Cultural >> > Anthropology at the California Institute of Integral Studies and >> > co-convener of the International People's Tribunal in Kashmir.) >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> >> >> -- >> /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ From tapasrayx at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 17:38:01 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 08:08:01 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: References: <487A8DF8.9020303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <487B41A1.8050809@gmail.com> Rajen, I can see that my explanation needs its own explanation, because it has added to the confusion I had suspected the original post would create. When I said I must have been mixed up, I was not talking about the BJP and CPI(M) opposing the nuclear deal. I was referring to that weird conclusion I had drawn, that the anti-nukes movement needs to press India to denuclearise, and at the same time encourage it to keep making bombs. By the same logic, environmentalists need to press India to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and at the same time encourage it to increase these emissions. But these conclusions cannot be true according to the law of noncontradiction. Therefore, there must be a flaw in my reasoning somewhere. I was asking for help in finding that flaw. I have not taken any stand either supporting or opposing the deal as such, from the point of view of nuclear nationalism, because (a) I have not studied the implications of the deal, and (b) I am suspicious of nationalism as such. Leaving aside theoretical issues, one can see what enormous harm it has done in the hands of some famous people - or infamous, depending on how you look at it. I am not very familiar with theoretical arguments for and against nationalism and do not have the time to read up at this moment, because I am trying hard to complete a complicated project on a tight schedule, and I am already behind. But, unfortunately, I get drawn into these discussions - and end up confusing people in my hurry - when I see funny or annoying things. Funny: Shivan threatening to throw his keyboard at you in the Amarnath Land Issue thead. Annoying: Prakash Ray acting like he is addressing an SFI meeting instead of engagig in reasoned discussions. Anyway, if I was not speaking for or against the deal, what was I talking about? I was speaking from a third point of view - that of someone who wants the whole world to denuclearise - USA, China, Russia, India, Pakistan, Israel, Iran, etc. Denuclearise not just in the usual military sense but also in the "peaceful purposes" sense. I had expressed this view my post of July 2, in the "Open letter to the prime minister of India to scrap the Indo US nuclear Deal" thread. Please take a look at that post if you want to see my reasons for taking this stand. From that point of view, I see our nuclear nationalism as a play of opposites - the CPI(M)'s and BJP's opposing ideologies, which feed on each other. Hope I have not created even more confusion now! Tapas PS: From now on, for some time, I shall address you as Rajen, which is the masculine-sounding part of your name. That's because I do not know if you are male or female. I had mentioned this doubt in my first in the "Amaranth Land Issue" thread. Another list member later told me, offlist, that he was convinced you are male. Since we can't be sure, I think it's only fair to give the other part of your name some promnence for a while. radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > Tapas, > > let me assure you there is nothing wrong in your thought process as to left and BJP voting against the UPA on nuclear "deal", for it is quite clear that this "deal" is not in the national interest. For left as you rightly feel that America is the bully, in the comity of nations which has leaders like Bush, who maintain that you are with us or you are enemy of ours. PM Manmohan Singh who was with Bush with his economics of disaster, is more dangersous than the "communal" BJP as he has only his dishonest economic theories of fudging figures of wholesale price index with a planning commission latchey of his Monteksingh who is known for his silver tongue to please the politicians and stay in power when he should have ben sent to mental asylum for his policies of exclusive growth, when his mentor talks of inclusive growth. Loans availed from world bank and ADB have been consistently misused to enrich the hangers on and sycophants in awarding contracts, the ministers in UPA ha ve > amassed wealth which will be shame on the nation for future generations to be concerned about. As Raja as minister of telecom sells spectrum to his cronies for political considerations, national exchequer is loosing billion crores, as minister of surface transport, diverts money to his contractor funds, the highways are looting points without repairs and maintainanace, kafan chori is nothing compared to the loot that is now rampant in UPA rule. > The very nuclear deal is a deal to get perpetual kickbacks for triliion dollars as the contracts for purchase have to vetted in Washington with cartel selling uranium. When deal is personal interest of a Mr. Honest for personal gains of a family, how it can be in national interest.? > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tapas Ray > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 4:52 am > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > To: sarai list > >> PS to my last post, which I have quoted below this one: >> >> I should have explained that the unity of opposites I was talking >> about, >> is the opposition's stand on the agreement and the nuclear weapons >> issue >> in general, which is based on two opposing views of global >> politics. >> CPI(M) looks at the USA as the main enemy, not China, which in its >> eyes >> is a good, friendly dada (big brother of the neighbourhood for >> those who >> don't know Bengali or Hindi). BJP, on the other hand, looks at >> China and >> Pakistan as enemies, and the USA as a friendly giant, if not quite >> a >> gentle one. >> >> One other thing. It just occurred to me that those who want to >> abolish >> nuclear weapons everywhere, may need to do two contradictory >> things at >> one and the same time. I mean they need to put pressure on India >> to >> denuclearise, of course. But for global denuking, they need to >> support >> India's nuclear weapons programme. I know this sounds absurd, but >> here's >> the logic: If India keeps making bombs, pointing out that it's >> entitled >> to that if the big ones can have huge stockpiles, then people in >> those >> countries will increase pressure on their governments to >> denuclearise. >> Because if those countries do that, India and others will not have >> that >> excuse or reason (depending how one looks at it). Same goes for >> nuclear >> power, greenhouse emissions, etc. >> >> I know my brain is probably in a tangle and I should "take a >> flight out >> of town" (Mayall?) but don't know where exactly that tangle is, >> and >> can't afford to take that flight right now. So, I would appreciate >> it if >> someone could help me get it untangled. >> >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 07:59:53 -0400 >> From: Tapas Ray >> To: sarai list >> >> prakash ray wrote: >>> Their belief of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and >>> based on a report appeared in Times Now website. >> Or they might have fallen prey to the titillations of Marxist >> dialectical reasoning - I'm talking about the thing called "unity of >> opposites". But like shy fourteen-year-olds they only love her >> from a >> distance, don't know her at all! That's why they don't know that this >> thing called dialectics works for everything and everyone, except >> for a >> certain party of the Indian left, which transcends everything and >> everyone ... like God with a capital G. Sounds also like American >> exceptionalism ... sorry, I have put my foot in my mouth again! I >> mean,I have suggested that this epitome of left politics thinks >> like Uncle >> Sam, the dirty old man! Anyway, that's something the bearded old man >> didn't see, or foresee, because he lived so long ago. I mean not >> the old >> man in a stars-and-stripes hat, sporting a goatee kind of thing >> ... but >> the other one, with a full beard and no hat. Looks like there was no >> place for any kind of God in his way of thinking, but he was wrong, >> obviously. His ghost must see it now, because it must be as >> intelligentas he was, but it doesn't have access to the internet, >> so can't email an >> addendum or correction to his publishers ... these days, with no >> copyright any more, there are too many of them anyway. So it falls to >> that transcendent entity of our time, who/which resides in "party >> offices", to correct him in light of objective conditions in India, >> because, through its extrasensory link with the old man's ghost, it >> knows what that ghost is thinking now. >> >> It's a scandal that Shuddha and other liberated ones seem to be >> readingmore than newspapers and the words of our contemporary God, >> who is >> actually Indian and lives in the "party office"! >> >> Tapas >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From anansi1 at earthlink.net Mon Jul 14 17:40:33 2008 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul Miller) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 08:10:33 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Modern Babylon: America Votes 2008!!! References: <20080712024036.0096020097@viewsic.mayfirst.org> Message-ID: <29132A69-45DA-45AA-9928-D15F97FE0739@earthlink.net> I guess Mugabe in Zimbabwe has a few things to learn from the Republicans. Paul > Voter Protection > > - The African World - > By Bill Fletcher, Jr. - > BlackCommentator.com Executive Editor > > > I asked a good friend what I should write about for > BlackCommentator.com this week. Without missing a beat > she said: "Write about what I am working on!" I looked > at her and asked what that was. Her response: "Voter > protection." > > Elections in the USA have rarely been clean. Electoral > theft is not new. Infamous big city machines were known > for throwing elections one way or the other. The 1960 > Presidential election has always been shrouded in some > degree of mystery, particularly with regard to the > voting results from Illinois. African Americans, > Chicanos and Asians have had plenty of experience with > electoral fraud, having been effectively denied the > right to vote for most of the period since the end of > Reconstruction (1877). > > Yet, in the period particularly since the passage of the > Voting Rights Act (1965) and the Watergate infamy > (1973-74), an assumption emerged in Mainstream America > that elections were, for the most part, honest and on > the up and up. > > Then came the November 2000 elections. > > There were several things that were striking about the > November 2000 elections. One was the audacity on the > part of the Bush forces, dramatized in the recent HBO > film, Recount. Their arrogance and boldness completely > took the Gore campaign, as well as many pro-democracy > groups, entirely off guard. While the Bush campaign was > prepared to agitate, including through demonstrations, > on behalf of their candidate, the Gore forces were > paralyzed. Staff and volunteers linked to organized > labor mobilized to go to Florida, but found themselves > doing little more than taking affidavits from > individuals who alleged that they had been deprived of > their democratic rights. > > The tactics that were used in both the 2000 and 2004 > Presidential elections by Bush-aligned forces were quite > amazing. Black voters, for instance, found themselves > eliminated from the voting rolls. As reported by the > journalist Greg Palast, letters were sent to the home > addresses of Black active duty military service > personnel who, if they did not respond, had their votes > challenged. This last point is remarkable since it was > the votes of those who were literally in the line of > fire who were being denied their right to have their > votes counted. > > Added to this has been the introduction of computer > screen voting. Described as making the system more > efficient, the lack of hardcopy proof of voting along > with numerous examples of computer glitches (and > possible computer tampering) raises further questions as > to whether the right to vote is being eroded. > > Thus, the irony is that we have witnessed a Presidential > administration that has heralded the right to democratic > elections overseas (even if all they have been concerned > with is that there is more than one party in the race > rather than whether there has been genuine democracy), > yet tactics have been implemented which they have not > challenged (if not outright encouraged), that deprive > entire sections of the US population of their right to > vote. > > The awareness of the shenanigans of the 2000 and 2004 > elections has led to a very broad-based mobilization > around what is being called "Voter Protection." Unions, > community-based organizations, and other non-profits > have enlisted in this battle, one which starts with > increasing public awareness of the dangers of voter > disenfranchisement. Further involvement in this work is > of great importance, and is often missed when the focus > of our electoral discussions are on the candidates > alone. The political Right, fearing a loss by McCain, > will do all that it can to suppress the Black vote, the > Latino vote (except among Cuban Americans), older > citizen vote and the youth vote. It will more than > likely do this through a shrewd combination of > propaganda aimed at defaming Senator Obama and > encouraging fear as to who he actually is (i.e., the > false allegations that he is a Muslim; does not do the > Pledge of Allegiance; is actually not a US citizen), as > well as through the tried and true tactics of the 2000 > and 2004 elections. With regard to outright voter > suppression, for example, volunteers will be needed at > all poll sites to ensure that there is no voter > intimidation or misinformation. This is a lot more than > traditional voter registration/education and Get Out The > Vote (GOTV). It is really a democracy mobilization. > > In November 2000 I was deployed by the AFL-CIO to > Florida for several days following the election. I > watched and listened as reports came in regarding > spontaneous demonstrations taking place in various parts > of the state by disenfranchised voters; voters who > WANTED their votes counted. I watched and listened as > affidavits were completed. I watched and listened as the > Bush forces made it appear that they were the righteous > and that Gore was the spoiler. I watched and listened as > the Gore campaign and its allies completely caved in. > > I am not going through that again. We must provide the > support for voters to ensure that their votes are > counted, but if there is further theft it is not > permissible to accept that the election was stolen fair > and square. The tables will need to be turned. > > [For more information on voter protection, see: > www.vote411.org] > > BlackCommentator.com Executive Editor, Bill Fletcher, > Jr., is a Senior Scholar with the Institute for Policy > Studies, the immediate past president of TransAfrica > Forum and co-author of the just released book, > Solidarity Divided: The Crisis in Organized Labor and a > New Path toward Social Justice (University of California > Press), which examines the crisis of organized labor in > the USA. > > _____________________________________________ From yasir.media at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 17:56:53 2008 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?WINDOWS-1256?Q?yasir_~=ED=C7_=D3=D1?=) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 05:26:53 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] pixel war In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0807140526v5a8ddbfq95b19606de20b3c5@mail.gmail.com> References: <5af37bb0807140526v5a8ddbfq95b19606de20b3c5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0807140526j4499c405n3abd1beab9dacfca@mail.gmail.com> the original story http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/10/in-an-iranian-image-a-missile-too-many/index.html?hp and the after-geometry http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/07/attack-of-the-p.html From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 14 19:51:30 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 07:21:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <699277.55914.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Radhikarajen   You are lecturing me on everything else but not addressing the simpler issues that would put things in perspective with regards to approaches to IAEA and subsequently the NSG.   I repeat, going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand-alone issues and not connected with or to be clubbed with any "deal with the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA and NSG, they are to be thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National Interest".   The (relative) HONESTY or DISHONESTY of Manmohan Singh is also inconsequential to the much more important issue of negotiations with IAEA and NSG being satisfactorily concluded.   Kshmendra     --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 4:05 PM Kshemendra, yes, questions have questions in them, agreeable thoughts, how is it that these questions of nuclear deal were shrouded in darkness of classified lines for well over two years keeping the citizens in dark. ? Why suddenly now advertisements in media about the good deal that our Mr. Honest is keen about the deal. ? What prevented Mr. Honest to have a honest discussion of the deal in media and parliament instead of blanket answers that the deal is good, is in the national interest.? In any democracy, the classified documents are put to open domain after a period of certain number of years. they are de-classified for the citizens to know about the ommissions and commissions of the decision making process in democratic rule of that nation. India is perhaps one of the very few democratic countries which has not de-classified its classified documents till date even after being a free nation. In such a situation, the policy makers, the executors of the policies and the citizens who have a right to know the procedure of rule of laws are manipulating the records to suit their selfish interests, ? Even in UK and USA the documents are classified once they are archived after thirty years, that is documents upto 1978 are declassified that, the citizens know the misadventure or the good acts of babus, politicians and all. Such is the power of the citizens, that future babus and politicians will be well informed of the mistakes of the past. Do we have this in place. ? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 2:25 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear Radhikarajen >   > Questions have a questioning in them so they cannot be Utopian. If > my answers sounded Utopian to you, then I would disagree with you > that they are so. >   > You seemed to have missed the point (completely) in my questions > and my answers: >   > 1. Going through the IAEA and NSG routines does not in any way > whatsoever mean that you have entered into the (legally > enforceable) deal with the USA. Do you disagree? >   > 2. Successfully going through the IAEA and NSG routines leaves > India better placed to enter into a deal or deals with any country > of (nuclear) interest, an access which is currently blocked. USA > need not be one such country that India "deals' with. Do you disagree? >   > Whether USA is an 'angelic' entity or a 'satanic' one does not > come into the picture. >   >   > Kshmendra >   > > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net > wrote: > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 12:38 PM > > Kshemendra, > > your questions are basically utopian and answers given by you > are only > theoratical and not practical, after the citizens of the world > have seen how if > you are with America, you have to be ready to recieve body bags > for the > misadventure of America for its leaders folly in Afghanistan and > Iraq.Australian PM Howard was seen by his citizens as lapdog of > Bush, do you need a > hairy happy lapdog of our PM on the lap of american president.? > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:07 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Dear PK > >   > > "Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism." > > That sounds very very very "holier than thou" and pompous. > >   > > Questions for you: > >   > > 1. Does IAEA Agreement automatically place India in your feared > > "unholy matrimomy" (my words) with the USA? My answer is NO. > What > > is yours? > >   > > 2. Does successful negotiation with the NSG automatically place > > India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" with the USA? My answer > is > > NO. What is yours? > >   > > 3. Let us imagine that there is no USA, wouldn't India still > have > > to go the IAEA and NSG route if it wants to freed of current > > (nuclear) restrictions on it? My answer is YES. What is yours? > >   > > 4. Does help received from the USA with the IAEA and NSG place > > India under any Legal obligation to (nuclear) deal thereafter > only > > or primarily with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours?  > >   > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Sat, 7/12/08, prakash ray wrote: > > > > From: prakash ray > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 8:52 PM > > > > Dear all, > > > > It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' ones (read > > Shuddha, > > Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the current > > debate over > > the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, have > > 'always'attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do not > want > > to blame them for > > their political positions, but I would accuse them for their > > shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive > > contribution or > > position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves 'liberated' > since > > we > > write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that our > > 'falsesense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our handsome > > salaries and > > convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that a > > sin. However, > > I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' approach. > > > > Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not > > articulate their > > position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear sacredness. > > Their belief > > of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based on > a > > reportappeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that they > > believe what the > > TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or > economic > > policiesetc. Shivam could have researched on the matter since he > > is a reporter > > himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support > extended > > by the > > Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting > > interviewed in > > the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every > > newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes interviews > > of the > > politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of the > > Salwa Judum > > infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at regular > > intervention > > and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R > > Narayanan on > > the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in place of the > > customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, the > > right-wingers > > get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about the > moderator > > or > > Shuddha himself? > > > > I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to the US > > administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and > > continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I do > not > > find any > > fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact > that > > the US and > > Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do not > > think the > > readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault if > > someone sees > > the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I > consider the > > nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on the > > poor and > > less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation > > against the > > policies and politics of the US. > > > > Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. > > > > Let me ask some simple questions: > > > > Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the Congress? > > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr Singh could go > > ahead with > > the Deal? > > Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit in > > elections if > > the Govt falls? > > Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left oppose or > > supporteverything only on the basis of the position taken by the > BJP?> Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology of > the > > 'clash of > > civilizations'? > > > > Regards, > > Prakash > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From sen.gargi at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 20:03:13 2008 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:03:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Persistence Resistance in London Message-ID: Dear all, A selection from 'Persistence Resistance: a festival of contemporary political film ' will be screened in London and present works by some of the pioneering, and emerging, filmmakers from India: their concerns, styles, aesthetics and engagement with form. For screening schedule please visit http://www.thefleapit.com/events/?/2008/07/22/ http://www.thefleapit.com/events/?/2008/07/23/ Please circulate the invite to you friends and networks in London especially those interested in cinema, documentaries and public cultures. And we'll be delighted if you are in London and can attend. Gargi Sen Ranjan De Priyanka Mulherjee From parthaekka at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 20:51:43 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (parthaekka at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:51:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <699277.55914.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <699277.55914.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32144e990807140821o3835af66ye51f855ff5f26782@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I think we forgot to look at another issue as well. With the growing requirement for power generation which is well below par as well as the fact that the hydro power generation is facing issues of lessened water flow, and solar and wind powered generation not viable for a large volume, what are the alternatives India has to generate power for a growing population - given the fact that we do not have enough power for current requirement. With oil prices going the way they are, oil based generation does not seem a sensible route either, as doesn't coal - both non sustainable in any case. Doesn't seem to be much of an alternative barring the nuclear power route. Rgds, Partha .............................................. On 7/14/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Radhikarajen > > You are lecturing me on everything else but not addressing the simpler > issues that would put things in perspective with regards to approaches to > IAEA and subsequently the NSG. > > I repeat, going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand-alone issues and > not connected with or to be clubbed with any "deal with the USA". If the USA > helps us with IAEA and NSG, they are to be thanked. Thankfulness is not sale > of "National Interest". > > The (relative) HONESTY or DISHONESTY of Manmohan Singh is also > inconsequential to the much more important issue of negotiations with IAEA > and NSG being satisfactorily concluded. > > Kshmendra > > > > > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 4:05 PM > > Kshemendra, > > yes, questions have questions in them, agreeable thoughts, how is it that > these questions of nuclear deal were shrouded in darkness of classified > lines > for well over two years keeping the citizens in dark. ? > > Why suddenly now advertisements in media about the good deal that our Mr. > Honest is keen about the deal. ? > > What prevented Mr. Honest to have a honest discussion of the deal in media > and parliament instead of blanket answers that the deal is good, is in the > national interest.? > > In any democracy, the classified documents are put to open domain after a > period of certain number of years. they are de-classified for the citizens > to > know about the ommissions and commissions of the decision making process in > democratic rule of that nation. India is perhaps one of the very few > democratic > countries which has not de-classified its classified documents till date > even > after being a free nation. > > In such a situation, the policy makers, the executors of the policies and > the citizens who have a right to know the procedure of rule of laws are > manipulating the records to suit their selfish interests, ? > > Even in UK and USA the documents are classified once they are archived > after > thirty years, that is documents upto 1978 are declassified that, the > citizens > know the misadventure or the good acts of babus, politicians and all. Such > is > the power of the citizens, that future babus and politicians will be well > informed of the mistakes of the past. > > Do we have this in place. ? > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 2:25 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> Dear Radhikarajen >> >> Questions have a questioning in them so they cannot be Utopian. If >> my answers sounded Utopian to you, then I would disagree with you >> that they are so. >> >> You seemed to have missed the point (completely) in my questions >> and my answers: >> >> 1. Going through the IAEA and NSG routines does not in any way >> whatsoever mean that you have entered into the (legally >> enforceable) deal with the USA. Do you disagree? >> >> 2. Successfully going through the IAEA and NSG routines leaves >> India better placed to enter into a deal or deals with any country >> of (nuclear) interest, an access which is currently blocked. USA >> need not be one such country that India "deals' with. Do you > disagree? >> >> Whether USA is an 'angelic' entity or a 'satanic' one does > not >> come into the picture. >> >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net >> wrote: >> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 12:38 PM >> >> Kshemendra, >> >> your questions are basically utopian and answers given by you >> are only >> theoratical and not practical, after the citizens of the world >> have seen how if >> you are with America, you have to be ready to recieve body bags >> for the >> misadventure of America for its leaders folly in Afghanistan and >> Iraq.Australian PM Howard was seen by his citizens as lapdog of >> Bush, do you need a >> hairy happy lapdog of our PM on the lap of american president.? >> >> Regards. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Kshmendra Kaul >> Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:07 pm >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> >> > Dear PK >> > >> > "Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the > Imperialism." >> > That sounds very very very "holier than thou" and pompous. >> > >> > Questions for you: >> > >> > 1. Does IAEA Agreement automatically place India in your feared >> > "unholy matrimomy" (my words) with the USA? My answer is > NO. >> What >> > is yours? >> > >> > 2. Does successful negotiation with the NSG automatically place >> > India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" with the USA? My > answer >> is >> > NO. What is yours? >> > >> > 3. Let us imagine that there is no USA, wouldn't India still >> have >> > to go the IAEA and NSG route if it wants to freed of current >> > (nuclear) restrictions on it? My answer is YES. What is yours? >> > >> > 4. Does help received from the USA with the IAEA and NSG place >> > India under any Legal obligation to (nuclear) deal thereafter >> only >> > or primarily with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours? >> > >> > Kshmendra >> > >> > >> > --- On Sat, 7/12/08, prakash ray wrote: >> > >> > From: prakash ray >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net >> > Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 8:52 PM >> > >> > Dear all, >> > >> > It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' ones > (read >> > Shuddha, >> > Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the current >> > debate over >> > the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, have >> > 'always'attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do not >> want >> > to blame them for >> > their political positions, but I would accuse them for their >> > shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive >> > contribution or >> > position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves > 'liberated' >> since >> > we >> > write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that our >> > 'falsesense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our > handsome >> > salaries and >> > convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that a >> > sin. However, >> > I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' > approach. >> > >> > Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not >> > articulate their >> > position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear sacredness. >> > Their belief >> > of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based on >> a >> > reportappeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that they >> > believe what the >> > TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or >> economic >> > policiesetc. Shivam could have researched on the matter since he >> > is a reporter >> > himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support >> extended >> > by the >> > Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting >> > interviewed in >> > the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every >> > newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes interviews >> > of the >> > politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of the >> > Salwa Judum >> > infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at > regular >> > intervention >> > and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R >> > Narayanan on >> > the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in place of the >> > customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, the >> > right-wingers >> > get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about the >> moderator >> > or >> > Shuddha himself? >> > >> > I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to the > US >> > administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and >> > continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I do >> not >> > find any >> > fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact >> that >> > the US and >> > Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do not >> > think the >> > readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault if >> > someone sees >> > the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I >> consider the >> > nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on the >> > poor and >> > less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation >> > against the >> > policies and politics of the US. >> > >> > Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. >> > >> > Let me ask some simple questions: >> > >> > Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the Congress? >> > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr Singh could go >> > ahead with >> > the Deal? >> > Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit in >> > elections if >> > the Govt falls? >> > Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left oppose or >> > supporteverything only on the basis of the position taken by the >> BJP?> Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology of >> the >> > 'clash of >> > civilizations'? >> > >> > Regards, >> > Prakash >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with >> > subscribe in >> > the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> > list >> > List archive: >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> > list >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> list >> List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 14 21:18:58 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 08:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] two strange stories about women in india In-Reply-To: <487A1F9A.908@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <485325.85572.qm@web51402.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Rob I posted your last link about the skin-whitening adverts to some friends on facebook, and it seems to be leading to an interesting debate there, especially the fact that the skin-whitening is not only an Indian phenomena - strange tendencies are still emerging about the colour of the skin even outside India... http://www.facebook.com/inbox/readmessage.php?t=1004356748350 I guess you'll need to log in to facebook with an ID to see this. Yousuf --- On Sun, 7/13/08, Rob van Kranenburg wrote: > From: Rob van Kranenburg > Subject: [Reader-list] two strange stories about women in india > To: > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 9:00 PM > hi, > > i can not make sense of it, but maybe someone can: > > two strange stories about women in india: > > one on the ratio male - female > > http://www.actionaid.org.uk/doc_lib/disappearing_daughters_0608.pdf > http://www.punjabnewsline.com/content/view/10896/93/ > http://actionaidindia.org/camp_violence.htm > > and one very scary ad: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKEF-8XkWMU > > http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/skinwhitening-adverts-ignite-race-row-in-india-863936.html > > greetings, rob > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From noorazul at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 08:38:36 2008 From: noorazul at gmail.com (Noora Zul) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:08:36 +0800 Subject: [Reader-list] two strange stories about women in india In-Reply-To: <485325.85572.qm@web51402.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <487A1F9A.908@xs4all.nl> <485325.85572.qm@web51402.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8fa81ae50807142008xe28c54gcaf8ad30516cfda4@mail.gmail.com> Dear Yousuf & Rob I couldn't resist adding this. I'm actually from Singapore, and Malay in terms of ethnicity (in terms of skin colour, we tend towards being brown). The skin-whitening ad 'phenomenon' also exists here, and similarly in Malaysia and Indonesia (which is more preponderantly Malay peoples). And it does seem to break racial boundaries, because there are ads too targeting at the Chinese women. It is quite an obsession, with products ranging from specific whitening creams to things like compacts boasting additional whitening properties. There is (strangely) the ambition to be fair in an extremely sunny tropical region, where getting a tan is more easily achieved. This was kinda sharpened for me when I noticed that when I was living in London, it seemed that tanning products were more of 'the rage'. Noora On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:48 PM, Yousuf wrote: > Dear Rob > I posted your last link about the skin-whitening adverts to some friends on > facebook, and it seems to be leading to an interesting debate there, > especially the fact that the skin-whitening is not only an Indian phenomena > - strange tendencies are still emerging about the colour of the skin even > outside India... > > http://www.facebook.com/inbox/readmessage.php?t=1004356748350 > > I guess you'll need to log in to facebook with an ID to see this. > > Yousuf > > > > > --- On Sun, 7/13/08, Rob van Kranenburg wrote: > > > From: Rob van Kranenburg > > Subject: [Reader-list] two strange stories about women in india > > To: > > Cc: "sarai list" > > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 9:00 PM > > hi, > > > > i can not make sense of it, but maybe someone can: > > > > two strange stories about women in india: > > > > one on the ratio male - female > > > > http://www.actionaid.org.uk/doc_lib/disappearing_daughters_0608.pdf > > http://www.punjabnewsline.com/content/view/10896/93/ > > http://actionaidindia.org/camp_violence.htm > > > > and one very scary ad: > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKEF-8XkWMU > > > > > http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/skinwhitening-adverts-ignite-race-row-in-india-863936.html > > > > greetings, rob > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 09:51:37 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] two strange stories about women in india In-Reply-To: <8fa81ae50807142008xe28c54gcaf8ad30516cfda4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <18053.22700.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Rob and Noora I am copying below the short discussion over this issue on facebook (for those who can't access) that talks about both the preferences for whitening and darkening creams: Gita Madhu wrote: July 14 at 7:09am As an Indian in India, I was quite immune to the "bhav" placed on "fair skin" and could really laugh it off. In retrospect I find that although Fair and Lovely is an Indian product, it is not held in great respect in India and mostly all enjoyed a good laugh at it. However, in my 3 years in malaysia I'm learning how much skin colour matters. The Chinese here openly talk about black Indians and go on and on about preserving their fairness- dark skin is dirty. At one shop when the cashier realised that I'm not Malaysian, he said: "Ah ! Black Indian!" So comfortably! It is hard to find any cosmetics here that are not whitening. In India one would feel shy to talk of this or to buy such products. No shame in it at all in Malaysia. Actually so many issues are not worth discussing in this country! You have to move out to know the true worth of India and its freedom of speech and the level of consciousness of its great people. Another reason to salute India! ==== Devaki Khanna wrote: July 14 at 11:58am Frankly, I think skin whitening ads should be banned--the products in any case are so utterly ridiculous. Now we don't just have Fair and Lovely, we also have Kaya, with that wretched girl on the train platform. And what about the Garnier skin lightening cream, with Esha Deol as the model? It angers me a little, to see the lengths that women will go to, to acheive what they consider to be physical perfection. Is that all there is to a woman? I'm sorry to hear what you have to say about Malaysia, Gita--I'd always expected a certain amount of solidarity amongst nations that had suffered from the impact of colonial rule. Of course, the emphasis on fair skin in India does not just date from the time of the British, but from the Vedic period onwards, yet we have two of the most attractive people in literature--Krishna and Draupadi--who were both dark-skinned. ===== Shailendra Mudgal: July 14 at 8:33pm no doubt that the ad is stupid but that way so many ads are. concerning the skin colour, i see similar ads in Europe on products promising to tan your skin and making fun of white skin women! ===== Devaki Khanna July 14 at 9:17pm Sanjay, Yes, white skin in Europe is a sign of women who stay indoors or who cannot go abroad for a holiday. However, what is their response to women who are naturally brown or black? --- On Tue, 7/15/08, Noora Zul wrote: > From: Noora Zul > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] two strange stories about women in india > To: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com, "Rob van Kranenburg" > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 8:38 AM > Dear Yousuf & Rob > > I couldn't resist adding this. I'm actually from > Singapore, and Malay in > terms of ethnicity (in terms of skin colour, we tend > towards being brown). > The skin-whitening ad 'phenomenon' also exists > here, and similarly in > Malaysia and Indonesia (which is more preponderantly Malay > peoples). And it > does seem to break racial boundaries, because there are ads > too targeting at > the Chinese women. It is quite an obsession, with products > ranging from > specific whitening creams to things like compacts boasting > additional > whitening properties. There is (strangely) the ambition to > be fair in an > extremely sunny tropical region, where getting a tan is > more easily > achieved. This was kinda sharpened for me when I noticed > that when I was > living in London, it seemed that tanning products were more > of 'the rage'. > > Noora > > On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:48 PM, Yousuf > wrote: > > > Dear Rob > > I posted your last link about the skin-whitening > adverts to some friends on > > facebook, and it seems to be leading to an interesting > debate there, > > especially the fact that the skin-whitening is not > only an Indian phenomena > > - strange tendencies are still emerging about the > colour of the skin even > > outside India... > > > > > http://www.facebook.com/inbox/readmessage.php?t=1004356748350 > > > > I guess you'll need to log in to facebook with an > ID to see this. > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 7/13/08, Rob van Kranenburg > wrote: > > > > > From: Rob van Kranenburg > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] two strange stories about > women in india > > > To: > > > Cc: "sarai list" > > > > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 9:00 PM > > > hi, > > > > > > i can not make sense of it, but maybe someone > can: > > > > > > two strange stories about women in india: > > > > > > one on the ratio male - female > > > > > > > http://www.actionaid.org.uk/doc_lib/disappearing_daughters_0608.pdf > > > > http://www.punjabnewsline.com/content/view/10896/93/ > > > http://actionaidindia.org/camp_violence.htm > > > > > > and one very scary ad: > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKEF-8XkWMU > > > > > > > > > http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/skinwhitening-adverts-ignite-race-row-in-india-863936.html > > > > > > greetings, rob > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject > > > header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Tue Jul 15 12:16:51 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:46:51 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] two strange stories about women in india In-Reply-To: <485325.85572.qm@web51402.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <487A1F9A.908@xs4all.nl> <485325.85572.qm@web51402.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Human behaviour is such that we always percieve the other side of hills are greener, but truth of the matter is the fascination of white skins to have sex with black, blacks undergoing the painful process of becoming white is seen in all nations, Michael Jackson wheel chaired with his white skin is grim reminder, to know that all are beautiful in their own way in life, as they become good humans. A Bush who has no hesitation to kill millions for his brand of democracy is more dangerous to humanity than the creams which give temporary bleaching of the skin to give a tan or whitening of the skin.? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Yousuf Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 9:19 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] two strange stories about women in india To: Rob van Kranenburg Cc: sarai list > Dear Rob > I posted your last link about the skin-whitening adverts to some > friends on facebook, and it seems to be leading to an interesting > debate there, especially the fact that the skin-whitening is not > only an Indian phenomena - strange tendencies are still emerging > about the colour of the skin even outside India... > > http://www.facebook.com/inbox/readmessage.php?t=1004356748350 > > I guess you'll need to log in to facebook with an ID to see this. > > Yousuf > > > > > --- On Sun, 7/13/08, Rob van Kranenburg wrote: > > > From: Rob van Kranenburg > > Subject: [Reader-list] two strange stories about women in india > > To: > > Cc: "sarai list" > > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 9:00 PM > > hi, > > > > i can not make sense of it, but maybe someone can: > > > > two strange stories about women in india: > > > > one on the ratio male - female > > > > http://www.actionaid.org.uk/doc_lib/disappearing_daughters_0608.pdf > > http://www.punjabnewsline.com/content/view/10896/93/ > > http://actionaidindia.org/camp_violence.htm > > > > and one very scary ad: > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKEF-8XkWMU > > > > http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/skinwhitening- > adverts-ignite-race-row-in-india-863936.html > > > > greetings, rob > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Tue Jul 15 12:24:34 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:54:34 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <32144e990807140821o3835af66ye51f855ff5f26782@mail.gmail.com> References: <699277.55914.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <32144e990807140821o3835af66ye51f855ff5f26782@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: By going to IAEA and NSG, if any citizen is under the impression that the "apartheid" in N-energy is over is in his own dark corner, as India has seen how America can make the other nations subservient to it when the need for such unilateral acts are needed..The body bags arriving at UK, Australia and other subservient nations is proof of this. Te very fact that MPs are being assured of rewards for supporting the deal, is a fact, in crores, small groups of MPs are being allured with rewards in cabinet berth and cash is no secret. Why this large investment unless larger benefits are due to accrue for the Congress once the "deal" is put thruogh.? Regards. Original Message ----- From: parthaekka at gmail.com Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 8:52 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Hi, > > I think we forgot to look at another issue as well. > > With the growing requirement for power generation which is well below > par as well as the fact that the hydro power generation is facing > issues of lessened water flow, and solar and wind powered generation > not viable for a large volume, what are the alternatives India has to > generate power for a growing population - given the fact that we do > not have enough power for current requirement. > > With oil prices going the way they are, oil based generation does not > seem a sensible route either, as doesn't coal - both non sustainable > in any case. > > Doesn't seem to be much of an alternative barring the nuclear > power route. > > Rgds, Partha > .............................................. > > On 7/14/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Radhikarajen > > > > You are lecturing me on everything else but not addressing the > simpler> issues that would put things in perspective with regards > to approaches to > > IAEA and subsequently the NSG. > > > > I repeat, going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand- > alone issues and > > not connected with or to be clubbed with any "deal with the > USA". If the USA > > helps us with IAEA and NSG, they are to be thanked. Thankfulness > is not sale > > of "National Interest". > > > > The (relative) HONESTY or DISHONESTY of Manmohan Singh is also > > inconsequential to the much more important issue of negotiations > with IAEA > > and NSG being satisfactorily concluded. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net > wrote: > > > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 4:05 PM > > > > Kshemendra, > > > > yes, questions have questions in them, agreeable thoughts, how > is it that > > these questions of nuclear deal were shrouded in darkness of > classified> lines > > for well over two years keeping the citizens in dark. ? > > > > Why suddenly now advertisements in media about the good deal > that our Mr. > > Honest is keen about the deal. ? > > > > What prevented Mr. Honest to have a honest discussion of the > deal in media > > and parliament instead of blanket answers that the deal is good, > is in the > > national interest.? > > > > In any democracy, the classified documents are put to open > domain after a > > period of certain number of years. they are de-classified for > the citizens > > to > > know about the ommissions and commissions of the decision making > process in > > democratic rule of that nation. India is perhaps one of the very few > > democratic > > countries which has not de-classified its classified documents > till date > > even > > after being a free nation. > > > > In such a situation, the policy makers, the executors of the > policies and > > the citizens who have a right to know the procedure of rule of > laws are > > manipulating the records to suit their selfish interests, ? > > > > Even in UK and USA the documents are classified once they are > archived> after > > thirty years, that is documents upto 1978 are declassified that, the > > citizens > > know the misadventure or the good acts of babus, politicians and > all. Such > > is > > the power of the citizens, that future babus and politicians > will be well > > informed of the mistakes of the past. > > > > Do we have this in place. ? > > > > Regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 2:25 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > >> Dear Radhikarajen > >> > >> Questions have a questioning in them so they cannot be Utopian. If > >> my answers sounded Utopian to you, then I would disagree with you > >> that they are so. > >> > >> You seemed to have missed the point (completely) in my questions > >> and my answers: > >> > >> 1. Going through the IAEA and NSG routines does not in any way > >> whatsoever mean that you have entered into the (legally > >> enforceable) deal with the USA. Do you disagree? > >> > >> 2. Successfully going through the IAEA and NSG routines leaves > >> India better placed to enter into a deal or deals with any country > >> of (nuclear) interest, an access which is currently blocked. USA > >> need not be one such country that India "deals' with. Do you > > disagree? > >> > >> Whether USA is an 'angelic' entity or a 'satanic' one does > > not > >> come into the picture. > >> > >> > >> Kshmendra > >> > >> > >> --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net > >> wrote: > >> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > >> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > >> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 12:38 PM > >> > >> Kshemendra, > >> > >> your questions are basically utopian and answers given by you > >> are only > >> theoratical and not practical, after the citizens of the world > >> have seen how if > >> you are with America, you have to be ready to recieve body bags > >> for the > >> misadventure of America for its leaders folly in Afghanistan and > >> Iraq.Australian PM Howard was seen by his citizens as lapdog of > >> Bush, do you need a > >> hairy happy lapdog of our PM on the lap of american president.? > >> > >> Regards. > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Kshmendra Kaul > >> Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:07 pm > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > >> To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> > >> > Dear PK > >> > > >> > "Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the > > Imperialism." > >> > That sounds very very very "holier than thou" and pompous. > >> > > >> > Questions for you: > >> > > >> > 1. Does IAEA Agreement automatically place India in your feared > >> > "unholy matrimomy" (my words) with the USA? My answer is > > NO. > >> What > >> > is yours? > >> > > >> > 2. Does successful negotiation with the NSG automatically place > >> > India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" with the USA? My > > answer > >> is > >> > NO. What is yours? > >> > > >> > 3. Let us imagine that there is no USA, wouldn't India still > >> have > >> > to go the IAEA and NSG route if it wants to freed of current > >> > (nuclear) restrictions on it? My answer is YES. What is yours? > >> > > >> > 4. Does help received from the USA with the IAEA and NSG place > >> > India under any Legal obligation to (nuclear) deal thereafter > >> only > >> > or primarily with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours? > >> > > >> > Kshmendra > >> > > >> > > >> > --- On Sat, 7/12/08, prakash ray wrote: > >> > > >> > From: prakash ray > >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> > Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 8:52 PM > >> > > >> > Dear all, > >> > > >> > It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' ones > > (read > >> > Shuddha, > >> > Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the current > >> > debate over > >> > the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, have > >> > 'always'attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do not > >> want > >> > to blame them for > >> > their political positions, but I would accuse them for their > >> > shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive > >> > contribution or > >> > position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves > > 'liberated' > >> since > >> > we > >> > write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that our > >> > 'falsesense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our > > handsome > >> > salaries and > >> > convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that a > >> > sin. However, > >> > I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' > > approach. > >> > > >> > Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not > >> > articulate their > >> > position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear sacredness. > >> > Their belief > >> > of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based on > >> a > >> > reportappeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that they > >> > believe what the > >> > TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or > >> economic > >> > policiesetc. Shivam could have researched on the matter since he > >> > is a reporter > >> > himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support > >> extended > >> > by the > >> > Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting > >> > interviewed in > >> > the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every > >> > newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes interviews > >> > of the > >> > politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of the > >> > Salwa Judum > >> > infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at > > regular > >> > intervention > >> > and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R > >> > Narayanan on > >> > the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in place > of the > >> > customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, the > >> > right-wingers > >> > get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about the > >> moderator > >> > or > >> > Shuddha himself? > >> > > >> > I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to the > > US > >> > administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and > >> > continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I do > >> not > >> > find any > >> > fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact > >> that > >> > the US and > >> > Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do not > >> > think the > >> > readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault if > >> > someone sees > >> > the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I > >> consider the > >> > nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on the > >> > poor and > >> > less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation > >> > against the > >> > policies and politics of the US. > >> > > >> > Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. > >> > > >> > Let me ask some simple questions: > >> > > >> > Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the > Congress?>> > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr > Singh could go > >> > ahead with > >> > the Deal? > >> > Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit in > >> > elections if > >> > the Govt falls? > >> > Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left oppose or > >> > supporteverything only on the basis of the position taken by the > >> BJP?> Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology of > >> the > >> > 'clash of > >> > civilizations'? > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > Prakash > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> with > >> > subscribe in > >> > the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> > list > >> > List archive: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> > list > >> > List archive: > >> > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> list > >> List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Tue Jul 15 12:35:52 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:05:52 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <699277.55914.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <699277.55914.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Kshemendra, lecturing is not debating or exchane of views, we have been exchanging our thoughts, if you fell for lecturing it is your choice, not mine. Tell me, please , by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear apartheid will come to an end, is the feel and speculation, but at what cost. ? Do you want the one billion citizens see their PM as lapdog of American president.? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:52 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear Radhikarajen >   > You are lecturing me on everything else but not addressing the > simpler issues that would put things in perspective with regards > to approaches to IAEA and subsequently the NSG. >   > I repeat, going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand-alone > issues and not connected with or to be clubbed with any "deal with > the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA and NSG, they are to be > thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National Interest". >   > The (relative) HONESTY or DISHONESTY of Manmohan Singh is also > inconsequential to the much more important issue of negotiations > with IAEA and NSG being satisfactorily concluded. >   > Kshmendra >   >   > > > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net > wrote: > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 4:05 PM > > Kshemendra, > > yes, questions have questions in them, agreeable thoughts, how > is it that > these questions of nuclear deal were shrouded in darkness of > classified lines > for well over two years keeping the citizens in dark. ? > > Why suddenly now advertisements in media about the good deal that > our Mr. > Honest is keen about the deal. ? > > What prevented Mr. Honest to have a honest discussion of the > deal in media > and parliament instead of blanket answers that the deal is good, > is in the > national interest.? > > In any democracy, the classified documents are put to open > domain after a > period of certain number of years. they are de-classified for the > citizens to > know about the ommissions and commissions of the decision making > process in > democratic rule of that nation. India is perhaps one of the very > few democratic > countries which has not de-classified its classified documents > till date even > after being a free nation. > > In such a situation, the policy makers, the executors of the > policies and > the citizens who have a right to know the procedure of rule of > laws are > manipulating the records to suit their selfish interests, ? > > Even in UK and USA the documents are classified once they are > archived after > thirty years, that is documents upto 1978 are declassified that, > the citizens > know the misadventure or the good acts of babus, politicians and > all. Such is > the power of the citizens, that future babus and politicians will > be well > informed of the mistakes of the past. > > Do we have this in place. ? > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 2:25 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Dear Radhikarajen > >   > > Questions have a questioning in them so they cannot be Utopian. > If > > my answers sounded Utopian to you, then I would disagree with > you > > that they are so. > >   > > You seemed to have missed the point (completely) in my questions > > and my answers: > >   > > 1. Going through the IAEA and NSG routines does not in any way > > whatsoever mean that you have entered into the (legally > > enforceable) deal with the USA. Do you disagree? > >   > > 2. Successfully going through the IAEA and NSG routines leaves > > India better placed to enter into a deal or deals with any > country > > of (nuclear) interest, an access which is currently blocked. USA > > need not be one such country that India "deals' with. Do you > disagree? > >   > > Whether USA is an 'angelic' entity or a 'satanic' one does > not > > come into the picture. > >   > >   > > Kshmendra > >   > > > > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > wrote: > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 12:38 PM > > > > Kshemendra, > > > > your questions are basically utopian and answers given by you > > are only > > theoratical and not practical, after the citizens of the world > > have seen how if > > you are with America, you have to be ready to recieve body bags > > for the > > misadventure of America for its leaders folly in Afghanistan > and > > Iraq.Australian PM Howard was seen by his citizens as lapdog of > > Bush, do you need a > > hairy happy lapdog of our PM on the lap of american president.? > > > > Regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:07 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > Dear PK > > >   > > > "Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the > Imperialism." > > > That sounds very very very "holier than thou" and pompous. > > >   > > > Questions for you: > > >   > > > 1. Does IAEA Agreement automatically place India in your > feared > > > "unholy matrimomy" (my words) with the USA? My answer is > NO. > > What > > > is yours? > > >   > > > 2. Does successful negotiation with the NSG automatically > place > > > India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" with the USA? My > answer > > is > > > NO. What is yours? > > >   > > > 3. Let us imagine that there is no USA, wouldn't India still > > have > > > to go the IAEA and NSG route if it wants to freed of current > > > (nuclear) restrictions on it? My answer is YES. What is yours? > > >   > > > 4. Does help received from the USA with the IAEA and NSG place > > > India under any Legal obligation to (nuclear) deal thereafter > > only > > > or primarily with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours?  > > >   > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 7/12/08, prakash ray wrote: > > > > > > From: prakash ray > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 8:52 PM > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' ones > (read > > > Shuddha, > > > Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the > current > > > debate over > > > the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, have > > > 'always'attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do not > > want > > > to blame them for > > > their political positions, but I would accuse them for their > > > shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive > > > contribution or > > > position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves > 'liberated' > > since > > > we > > > write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that > our > > > 'falsesense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our > handsome > > > salaries and > > > convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that a > > > sin. However, > > > I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' > approach. > > > > > > Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not > > > articulate their > > > position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear sacredness. > > > Their belief > > > of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based > on > > a > > > reportappeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that they > > > believe what the > > > TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or > > economic > > > policiesetc. Shivam could have researched on the matter since > he > > > is a reporter > > > himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support > > extended > > > by the > > > Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting > > > interviewed in > > > the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every > > > newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes > interviews > > > of the > > > politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of the > > > Salwa Judum > > > infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at > regular > > > intervention > > > and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R > > > Narayanan on > > > the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in place > of the > > > customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, the > > > right-wingers > > > get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about the > > moderator > > > or > > > Shuddha himself? > > > > > > I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to the > US > > > administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and > > > continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I do > > not > > > find any > > > fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact > > that > > > the US and > > > Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do > not > > > think the > > > readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault if > > > someone sees > > > the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I > > consider the > > > nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on > the > > > poor and > > > less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation > > > against the > > > policies and politics of the US. > > > > > > Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. > > > > > > Let me ask some simple questions: > > > > > > Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the > Congress?> > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr Singh > could go > > > ahead with > > > the Deal? > > > Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit > in > > > elections if > > > the Govt falls? > > > Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left oppose > or > > > supporteverything only on the basis of the position taken by > the > > BJP?> Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology of > > the > > > 'clash of > > > civilizations'? > > > > > > Regards, > > > Prakash > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > > subscribe in > > > the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Tue Jul 15 12:39:36 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:09:36 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Modern Babylon: America Votes 2008!!! In-Reply-To: <29132A69-45DA-45AA-9928-D15F97FE0739@earthlink.net> References: <20080712024036.0096020097@viewsic.mayfirst.org> <29132A69-45DA-45AA-9928-D15F97FE0739@earthlink.net> Message-ID: And America is on warpath to bring "democracy" in nations of its choice.? ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Miller Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 5:41 pm Subject: [Reader-list] Modern Babylon: America Votes 2008!!! To: Sarai Reader List > I guess Mugabe in Zimbabwe has a few things to learn from the > Republicans. > > Paul > > > Voter Protection > > > > - The African World - > > By Bill Fletcher, Jr. - > > BlackCommentator.com Executive Editor > > > > > > I asked a good friend what I should write about for > > BlackCommentator.com this week. Without missing a beat > > she said: "Write about what I am working on!" I looked > > at her and asked what that was. Her response: "Voter > > protection." > > > > Elections in the USA have rarely been clean. Electoral > > theft is not new. Infamous big city machines were known > > for throwing elections one way or the other. The 1960 > > Presidential election has always been shrouded in some > > degree of mystery, particularly with regard to the > > voting results from Illinois. African Americans, > > Chicanos and Asians have had plenty of experience with > > electoral fraud, having been effectively denied the > > right to vote for most of the period since the end of > > Reconstruction (1877). > > > > Yet, in the period particularly since the passage of the > > Voting Rights Act (1965) and the Watergate infamy > > (1973-74), an assumption emerged in Mainstream America > > that elections were, for the most part, honest and on > > the up and up. > > > > Then came the November 2000 elections. > > > > There were several things that were striking about the > > November 2000 elections. One was the audacity on the > > part of the Bush forces, dramatized in the recent HBO > > film, Recount. Their arrogance and boldness completely > > took the Gore campaign, as well as many pro-democracy > > groups, entirely off guard. While the Bush campaign was > > prepared to agitate, including through demonstrations, > > on behalf of their candidate, the Gore forces were > > paralyzed. Staff and volunteers linked to organized > > labor mobilized to go to Florida, but found themselves > > doing little more than taking affidavits from > > individuals who alleged that they had been deprived of > > their democratic rights. > > > > The tactics that were used in both the 2000 and 2004 > > Presidential elections by Bush-aligned forces were quite > > amazing. Black voters, for instance, found themselves > > eliminated from the voting rolls. As reported by the > > journalist Greg Palast, letters were sent to the home > > addresses of Black active duty military service > > personnel who, if they did not respond, had their votes > > challenged. This last point is remarkable since it was > > the votes of those who were literally in the line of > > fire who were being denied their right to have their > > votes counted. > > > > Added to this has been the introduction of computer > > screen voting. Described as making the system more > > efficient, the lack of hardcopy proof of voting along > > with numerous examples of computer glitches (and > > possible computer tampering) raises further questions as > > to whether the right to vote is being eroded. > > > > Thus, the irony is that we have witnessed a Presidential > > administration that has heralded the right to democratic > > elections overseas (even if all they have been concerned > > with is that there is more than one party in the race > > rather than whether there has been genuine democracy), > > yet tactics have been implemented which they have not > > challenged (if not outright encouraged), that deprive > > entire sections of the US population of their right to > > vote. > > > > The awareness of the shenanigans of the 2000 and 2004 > > elections has led to a very broad-based mobilization > > around what is being called "Voter Protection." Unions, > > community-based organizations, and other non-profits > > have enlisted in this battle, one which starts with > > increasing public awareness of the dangers of voter > > disenfranchisement. Further involvement in this work is > > of great importance, and is often missed when the focus > > of our electoral discussions are on the candidates > > alone. The political Right, fearing a loss by McCain, > > will do all that it can to suppress the Black vote, the > > Latino vote (except among Cuban Americans), older > > citizen vote and the youth vote. It will more than > > likely do this through a shrewd combination of > > propaganda aimed at defaming Senator Obama and > > encouraging fear as to who he actually is (i.e., the > > false allegations that he is a Muslim; does not do the > > Pledge of Allegiance; is actually not a US citizen), as > > well as through the tried and true tactics of the 2000 > > and 2004 elections. With regard to outright voter > > suppression, for example, volunteers will be needed at > > all poll sites to ensure that there is no voter > > intimidation or misinformation. This is a lot more than > > traditional voter registration/education and Get Out The > > Vote (GOTV). It is really a democracy mobilization. > > > > In November 2000 I was deployed by the AFL-CIO to > > Florida for several days following the election. I > > watched and listened as reports came in regarding > > spontaneous demonstrations taking place in various parts > > of the state by disenfranchised voters; voters who > > WANTED their votes counted. I watched and listened as > > affidavits were completed. I watched and listened as the > > Bush forces made it appear that they were the righteous > > and that Gore was the spoiler. I watched and listened as > > the Gore campaign and its allies completely caved in. > > > > I am not going through that again. We must provide the > > support for voters to ensure that their votes are > > counted, but if there is further theft it is not > > permissible to accept that the election was stolen fair > > and square. The tables will need to be turned. > > > > [For more information on voter protection, see: > > www.vote411.org] > > > > BlackCommentator.com Executive Editor, Bill Fletcher, > > Jr., is a Senior Scholar with the Institute for Policy > > Studies, the immediate past president of TransAfrica > > Forum and co-author of the just released book, > > Solidarity Divided: The Crisis in Organized Labor and a > > New Path toward Social Justice (University of California > > Press), which examines the crisis of organized labor in > > the USA. > > > > _____________________________________________ > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From logos.theword at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 12:46:47 2008 From: logos.theword at gmail.com (Logos Theatre) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:46:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] two strange stories about women in india Message-ID: <33bc2ee60807150016gce98883nd18d7df46b5c784f@mail.gmail.com> Is there anybody on the list who is a good psychologist? I cannot help but get the feeling that M(r/s). Rajen is in dire need of professional help. Either that, or s/he is a very clever posturer indeed. In either case, s/he deserves to be incarcerated for the malicious rape of the English language. A ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:46:51 +0500 > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] two strange stories about women in india > To: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > Cc: sarai list > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Human behaviour is such that we always percieve the other side of hills are > greener, but truth of the matter is the fascination of white skins to have > sex with black, blacks undergoing the painful process of becoming white is > seen in all nations, Michael Jackson wheel chaired with his white skin is > grim reminder, to know that all are beautiful in their own way in life, as > they become good humans. A Bush who has no hesitation to kill millions for > his brand of democracy is more dangerous to humanity than the creams which > give temporary bleaching of the skin to give a tan or whitening of the > skin.? > Regards. > > > -- > Logos Theatre > In the beginning was the word > No. 126, > 3rd Main Road, > Jayamahal Extension, > Bangalore 560046 > -------------------------------------------------------- > If it be now, 'tis not to come; > if it be not to come, it will be now; > if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all. > Since no man has aught of what he leaves, what is't to leave betimes? > Let be. From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Tue Jul 15 12:46:58 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:16:58 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <487B41A1.8050809@gmail.com> References: <487A8DF8.9020303@gmail.com> <487B41A1.8050809@gmail.com> Message-ID: Tapas, thank you for clarity of thoughts and explanations. Now about the name and gender, radhikarajen is expression of thoughts which the feel is good for citizens in the democratic life, thoughts have no gender, they are thoughts for all, may be gender specific thoughts to make the society aware of the miseries of a gender specific issue. But thoughts as such are only thoughts, if they are worthwhile they gain currency, make all citizens , male or female to use their intellect to ponder over, that is power of thoughts. If the thoughts have no substance, the retaliation is likes of shivams, responses, or sermons of some like Prakash who will try to impose his thoughts but fails.! Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tapas Ray Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 5:39 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: sarai list > Rajen, > > I can see that my explanation needs its own explanation, because > it has > added to the confusion I had suspected the original post would > create. > When I said I must have been mixed up, I was not talking about the > BJP > and CPI(M) opposing the nuclear deal. I was referring to that > weird > conclusion I had drawn, that the anti-nukes movement needs to > press > India to denuclearise, and at the same time encourage it to keep > making > bombs. By the same logic, environmentalists need to press India to > reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and at the same time encourage it > to > increase these emissions. But these conclusions cannot be true > according > to the law of noncontradiction. Therefore, there must be a flaw in > my > reasoning somewhere. I was asking for help in finding that flaw. > > I have not taken any stand either supporting or opposing the deal > as > such, from the point of view of nuclear nationalism, because (a) I > have > not studied the implications of the deal, and (b) I am suspicious > of > nationalism as such. Leaving aside theoretical issues, one can see > what > enormous harm it has done in the hands of some famous people - or > infamous, depending on how you look at it. > > I am not very familiar with theoretical arguments for and against > nationalism and do not have the time to read up at this moment, > because > I am trying hard to complete a complicated project on a tight > schedule, > and I am already behind. But, unfortunately, I get drawn into > these > discussions - and end up confusing people in my hurry - when I see > funny > or annoying things. Funny: Shivan threatening to throw his > keyboard at > you in the Amarnath Land Issue thead. Annoying: Prakash Ray acting > like > he is addressing an SFI meeting instead of engagig in reasoned > discussions. > Anyway, if I was not speaking for or against the deal, what was I > talking about? I was speaking from a third point of view - that of > someone who wants the whole world to denuclearise - USA, China, > Russia, > India, Pakistan, Israel, Iran, etc. Denuclearise not just in the > usual > military sense but also in the "peaceful purposes" sense. I had > expressed this view my post of July 2, in the "Open letter to the > prime > minister of India to scrap the Indo US nuclear Deal" thread. > Please take > a look at that post if you want to see my reasons for taking this > stand. > From that point of view, I see our nuclear nationalism as a play > of > opposites - the CPI(M)'s and BJP's opposing ideologies, which feed > on > each other. > > Hope I have not created even more confusion now! > > Tapas > > PS: From now on, for some time, I shall address you as Rajen, > which is > the masculine-sounding part of your name. That's because I do not > know > if you are male or female. I had mentioned this doubt in my first > in the > "Amaranth Land Issue" thread. Another list member later told me, > offlist, that he was convinced you are male. Since we can't be > sure, I > think it's only fair to give the other part of your name some > promnence > for a while. > > > > radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > Tapas, > > > > let me assure you there is nothing wrong in your thought > process as to left and BJP voting against the UPA on nuclear > "deal", for it is quite clear that this "deal" is not in the > national interest. For left as you rightly feel that America is > the bully, in the comity of nations which has leaders like Bush, > who maintain that you are with us or you are enemy of ours. PM > Manmohan Singh who was with Bush with his economics of disaster, > is more dangersous than the "communal" BJP as he has only his > dishonest economic theories of fudging figures of wholesale price > index with a planning commission latchey of his Monteksingh who > is known for his silver tongue to please the politicians and stay > in power when he should have ben sent to mental asylum for his > policies of exclusive growth, when his mentor talks of inclusive > growth. Loans availed from world bank and ADB have been > consistently misused to enrich the hangers on and sycophants in > awarding contracts, the ministers in UPA ha > ve > > amassed wealth which will be shame on the nation for future > generations to be concerned about. As Raja as minister of telecom > sells spectrum to his cronies for political considerations, > national exchequer is loosing billion crores, as minister of > surface transport, diverts money to his contractor funds, the > highways are looting points without repairs and maintainanace, > kafan chori is nothing compared to the loot that is now rampant in > UPA rule. > > The very nuclear deal is a deal to get perpetual kickbacks for > triliion dollars as the contracts for purchase have to vetted in > Washington with cartel selling uranium. When deal is personal > interest of a Mr. Honest for personal gains of a family, how it > can be in national interest.? > > > > Regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Tapas Ray > > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 4:52 am > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > To: sarai list > > > >> PS to my last post, which I have quoted below this one: > >> > >> I should have explained that the unity of opposites I was > talking > >> about, > >> is the opposition's stand on the agreement and the nuclear > weapons > >> issue > >> in general, which is based on two opposing views of global > >> politics. > >> CPI(M) looks at the USA as the main enemy, not China, which in > its > >> eyes > >> is a good, friendly dada (big brother of the neighbourhood for > >> those who > >> don't know Bengali or Hindi). BJP, on the other hand, looks at > >> China and > >> Pakistan as enemies, and the USA as a friendly giant, if not > quite > >> a > >> gentle one. > >> > >> One other thing. It just occurred to me that those who want to > >> abolish > >> nuclear weapons everywhere, may need to do two contradictory > >> things at > >> one and the same time. I mean they need to put pressure on > India > >> to > >> denuclearise, of course. But for global denuking, they need to > >> support > >> India's nuclear weapons programme. I know this sounds absurd, > but > >> here's > >> the logic: If India keeps making bombs, pointing out that it's > >> entitled > >> to that if the big ones can have huge stockpiles, then people > in > >> those > >> countries will increase pressure on their governments to > >> denuclearise. > >> Because if those countries do that, India and others will not > have > >> that > >> excuse or reason (depending how one looks at it). Same goes for > >> nuclear > >> power, greenhouse emissions, etc. > >> > >> I know my brain is probably in a tangle and I should "take a > >> flight out > >> of town" (Mayall?) but don't know where exactly that tangle is, > >> and > >> can't afford to take that flight right now. So, I would > appreciate > >> it if > >> someone could help me get it untangled. > >> > >> > >> > >> -------- Original Message -------- > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > >> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 07:59:53 -0400 > >> From: Tapas Ray > >> To: sarai list > >> > >> prakash ray wrote: > >>> Their belief of the Left and BJP coming together is > speculative and > >>> based on a report appeared in Times Now website. > >> Or they might have fallen prey to the titillations of Marxist > >> dialectical reasoning - I'm talking about the thing called > "unity of > >> opposites". But like shy fourteen-year-olds they only love her > >> from a > >> distance, don't know her at all! That's why they don't know > that this > >> thing called dialectics works for everything and everyone, > except > >> for a > >> certain party of the Indian left, which transcends everything and > >> everyone ... like God with a capital G. Sounds also like American > >> exceptionalism ... sorry, I have put my foot in my mouth again! > I > >> mean,I have suggested that this epitome of left politics thinks > >> like Uncle > >> Sam, the dirty old man! Anyway, that's something the bearded > old man > >> didn't see, or foresee, because he lived so long ago. I mean > not > >> the old > >> man in a stars-and-stripes hat, sporting a goatee kind of thing > >> ... but > >> the other one, with a full beard and no hat. Looks like there > was no > >> place for any kind of God in his way of thinking, but he was wrong, > >> obviously. His ghost must see it now, because it must be as > >> intelligentas he was, but it doesn't have access to the > internet, > >> so can't email an > >> addendum or correction to his publishers ... these days, with no > >> copyright any more, there are too many of them anyway. So it > falls to > >> that transcendent entity of our time, who/which resides in "party > >> offices", to correct him in light of objective conditions in India, > >> because, through its extrasensory link with the old man's > ghost, it > >> knows what that ghost is thinking now. > >> > >> It's a scandal that Shuddha and other liberated ones seem to be > >> readingmore than newspapers and the words of our contemporary > God, > >> who is > >> actually Indian and lives in the "party office"! > >> > >> Tapas > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> list > >> List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Tue Jul 15 12:53:54 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:23:54 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Indian Kashmir In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807140449o38767457j4133c61c01d45254@mail.gmail.com> References: <430165.49542.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <"9c06aab30807121034 y1a80823n469aad76329ce415"@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807130108xf1a2178s79d8c29ebe9a1bcd@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807140449o38767457j4133c61c01d45254@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: With divided polity, the role of 'tribunals" , commisssions is by itself highly unwarranted for the simple reason, at the election times the Judges have fudged quite a few reports, like the train burning in Gujarath, like the sacchar and his jhoota report which addresses the issue in such partisan ways that the politics of bringing out such reports at the time of elections becomes an effort to refurbish the tarnished images of culprits against humans. In democratic life, good govrnance should cover every citizen irrespective of faith, caste or region, when ethics and morals of those in public life are at new lows, such tribunals with retired and tired individuals becomes a game of vote catching jargon. The reports that have been gathering dust in the last sixty years without any results of improvement of citizens as a result of such tribunal and judicial commission reports is national waste of exchequer and retired personnels appeasement to gain votes. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 5:21 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Indian Kashmir To: Pawan Durani Cc: sarai list , ccs at jkccs.org > Dear Pawan, > > The tribunal is only demanding an enquiry to establish whose graves > these are. Why is the security establishment afraid of an enquiry? > > "Unidentified" and 'unidentifiable', are, by the way, also terms used > in the discourse on the Pandit killings. See > http://shivamvij.com/2008/05/10/report-on-pandit-killings- > rekindles-communal-fissures-in-valley/ > > best > shivam > > On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 1:38 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > Shivam , > > > > During the days os mass insurgencies , encounters at border > discrict were > > very common . it ususally happened when the terrorists used to > sneak into > > India in large groups. > > > > In each encounter , scores of people used to die .Many bodies > would remain > > unidentified and police but usual used to bury them. > > > > If today , a different story is eing made of those graves , the > rest of > > world should be made aware of the past instead of > sensationalising the issue > > to create more distrust and hate. > > > > Regards > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On 7/12/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > >> > >> Dear Khurram, > >> > >> Thanks for posting this. The Delhi media's conspiracy of silence > >> around human rights violations in Kashmir, as also the > intimidation of > >> those like you who seek to defend human rights, sadly seems > reflected>> on this list - this list seems to endlessly list the > sentiments of > >> some and is silent on an article like this. > >> > >> best > >> shivam > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Khurram Parvez > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > A PDF of the article with photos can be found on the Tribunal > website>> > at: > >> > > >> > > http://kashmirprocess.org/news/20080708_MassGravesKashmirChatterji.pdf>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Indian Kashmir > >> > > >> > Etala'at, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar, 09 July 2008 > >> > > >> > http://etalaat.com/english/Dimensions/1531.html > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Dirt, rubble, thick grass, hillside and flatland, crowded > with graves. > >> > Signifiers of military and paramilitary terror, masked from > the world. > >> > Constructed by institutions of state to conceal massacre. > Placed next > >> > to homes, fields, schools, an army practise range. Unknown, > unmarked.>> > Over 940 graves in a segment of Baramulla district > alone. Some > >> > containing more than one cadaver. Dug by locals, coerced by > the police, > >> > on village land. Bodies dragged through the night, some tortured, > >> > burnt, desecrated. Circulating mythology claims these graves > uniformly>> > house 'foreign militants'. Exhumation and > identification have not > >> > occurred in most cases. When undertaken, in sizable > instances, records > >> > prove the dead to be local people, ordinary citizens, killed > in fake > >> > encounters. In instances where bodies have been identified as > local,>> > non-militant and militant, it demystifies state > rhetoric that rumours > >> > these persons to be 'foreign militants', propagating > misrepresentation>> > that the demand for self-determination is > prevailingly external. > >> > Mourned, cared for, by locals, as 'farz'/duty, as part of an > >> > obligation, stated repeatedly, to 'azadi'. 'Azadi'/freedom to > determine>> > self and future. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 18 and 20 June, the International People's Tribunal on > Human Rights > >> > and Justice in Indian-administered Kashmir ('Tribunal', > convened in > >> > April 2008, www.kashmirprocess.org) visited Baramulla and Kupwara > >> > district to conduct ongoing fact-finding and verification > related to > >> > mass graves at the behest of local communities. The team > comprised of > >> > Tribunal Conveners Advocate Parvez Imroz and myself, a staff > member,>> > and camera crew. =3E >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 18 June, we visited Raja Mohalla in Uri, Baramulla > district, 110 > >> > kilometres from Srinagar, where 22 graves were constructed > between>> > 1996-1997. Then to Quazipora, where 13 bodies were > stated as buried in > >> > seven graves in 1991. Then we travelled to Chehal, Bimyar > village, Uri, > >> > holding 235 graves. We re-met Atta Mohammad, gravedigger and > caretaker>> > at Chehal, who testified that these bodies, brought > by the police, > >> > primarily after dark, were buried between 2002-2006. Atta > Mohammad said > >> > that the bodies appear in his nightmares, each in graphic, > gruesome>> > detail. Terrorised by the task forced upon him, his > nights are bereft > >> > of sleep. Then we travelled to Mir Mohalla, Kichama, Sheeri, > to the > >> > main graveyard with 105 graves, stated to hold about 225-250 > bodies,>> > buried between 1994-2003, and a smaller graveyard, > with nine graves, > >> > adjacent to a sign proclaiming it a 'Model Village'. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 20 June, we visited the northern district of Kupwara. On > the way we > >> > witnessed army convoys, including one of 21+ vehicles. > Created in 1979 > >> > through the forking of Baramulla district, approximately > 5,000 feet > >> > above sea level, Kupwara borders the Line-of-Control to the > north and > >> > west. Between Shamsbari and Pirpanchal mountain ranges, it is > one of > >> > the most heavily militarised zones, about 95 kilometres from > Srinagar.>> > Kupwara houses six army camps, as military and > paramilitary forces > >> > occupy significant land. Seven interrogation centres have been > >> > operational with police stations functioning as additional > >> > interrogation cells. In Hundwara town, a watchtower surveils and > >> > regulates movement. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > In Kupwara, we visited Trehgam village, holding 85-100 > graves, 24 of > >> > which are identified, and spoke with community members. > Trehgam was > >> > home to Maqbool Bhat (b. 1938), founding figure of the Jammu > Kashmir>> > National Liberation Front. Acknowledged as Shaheed-e- > Kashmir, Bhat is > >> > labelled a 'terrorist' by certain segments of India. He > sought to unite > >> > the territories of the former princely state of Jammu and > Kashmir into > >> > a secular, sovereign, democratic state. Bhat was sentenced to > death by > >> > the Supreme Court of India and hanged in Tihar jail in New > Delhi on 11 > >> > February 1984. Maqbool Bhat's nephew, Parvaiz Ahmad Bhat, > reminded us > >> > that Habibullah Bhat, Bhat's brother, was the first case of > enforced>> > disappearance before 1989. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > After Trehgam, we reached Regipora around 3 pm and stopped > for lunch. > >> > There, two persons introduced themselves as Special Branch > Kashmir>> > (SBK) and Counter Intelligence Kashmir (CIK) > personnel, and questioned > >> > the Tribunal staff member about our visit. After responding, we > >> > proceeded to the 'martyrs' graveyard' holding 258 graves, > constructed>> > in 1995. This burial ground is meticulously > ordered, each grave > >> > numbered. The body of a 20-25 year old youth was buried in > the first > >> > week of June, reportedly killed in an encounter in Bamhama > village.>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > We stopped at a roadside tea stall to speak with local people > about the > >> > graves. Four intelligence personnel questioned us, asking we > disclose>> > information about those we had visited. Soon, four > additional SBK and > >> > CIK personnel joined the questioning. Other intelligence > personnel made > >> > phone calls. By then, about 12 intelligence personnel gathered. > >> > Following further questioning we proceeded toward Srinagar. A car > >> > followed at a distance. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > We detoured to Sadipora, Kandi, where locals stated that > around 20 > >> > bodies were buried. The graveyard, overrun with wild flowers, > is part > >> > of a larger ground used during festivals, including Id. Two > of four > >> > bodies, killed in a fake encounter on 29 April 2007, were > exhumed,>> > identified as locals, contrary to police records > stating them to be > >> > 'Pakistani terrorists'. Saidipora holds Riyaz Ahmad Bhat's grave, > >> > killed in the encounter, age 19. Police records, per the First > >> > Information Report, declared him a 'Pakistani terrorist'. > Riyaz Bhat > >> > was identified by Javeed Ahmed, his brother, as a resident of > >> > Kalashpora, Srinagar, based on police photographs from the > time of > >> > death. Ahmed travelled with the Tribunal to take us to his > brother's>> > grave. On his knees Javeed attempted to clear the > thick brush. Later, > >> > in Srinagar, he testified that Bhat had never been involved in > >> > militancy. Javeed spoke of grieving, of imprisonment and > beatings at > >> > the police station. He asked how he could have saved his > brother from > >> > death. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > After Sadiapora, we were stopped at Shangargund, Sopore, at > about 6.40 > >> > pm, by three persons in civilian clothing. They forcibly > boarded the > >> > car. We were ordered to the Sopore Police Station. There we > were asked > >> > to detail our identity, employment, the purpose of the visit, > and to > >> > hand over tapes which, the police alleged, contained > 'dangerous' and > >> > 'objectionable' material. We stated that the Tribunal, a public > >> > process, was undertaking its work peaceably, lawfully, with > informed>> > consent, and that we had not visited restricted > areas. We stated that > >> > the police had no lawful reason to seize the tapes. We were > detained>> > for 16 minutes. After several calls to senior police > persons, we were > >> > released. A red Indica car followed us to Sangrama. At Srinagar, > >> > Intelligence personnel were stationed at my hotel. On 21 > June, I was > >> > followed from the hotel to the Tribunal's office in Lal > Chowk, where > >> > about 8 personnel were stationed the entire day questioning > anyone who > >> > entered or left the office. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > My mother, residing in Calcutta, received a query regarding my > >> > whereabouts from the District Magistrate's Office. I was > followed to > >> > the Srinagar airport on 22 June, and questioned, asked if I > possessed>> > dual citizenship. I do not. I am a citizen of India > and a permanent > >> > resident of the United States. On 24 June, I arrived in > Bhubaneswar to > =3E> > submit a statement to the Commission of Inquiry on the Kandhamal > >> > violence against Christians in 2007 in Orissa. There too, Central > >> > Intelligence officials persistently inquired after me. In > April, after > >> > announcing the Tribunal, I was stopped and harassed at > Immigration>> > while leaving India for the United States, and > again on my re-entry in > >> > June. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > The targeting of the Tribunal has not abated since the > Amarnath issue > >> > erupted around 23 June. The volatile proposal to transfer 800 > kanals of > >> > land to the Shrine Board, revoked on 01 July, was supported > by the > >> > Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party and Hindu militant > Shiv Sena. > >> > Despite the Sena's recent call to Hindus to form suicide > squads, it > >> > faces no sanctions from the state. Kashmiris of diverse > ethnicities and > >> > religions dissented the Amarnath land transfer. Community > leaders in > >> > Kashmir explained that their stance against the proposal is > not in > >> > dissent to Hindu pilgrims, but a repressive state. During the > Amarnath>> > land transfer protests, civil disobedience paralleled > that of 1989, > >> > amid severe repression. On 30 June, in curfew-like > conditions, we met > >> > with two families in Srinagar who narrated that the police > had shot > >> > dead their sons. At one place, in the old city, while the men > took the > >> > body for burial late at night, the police returned and destroyed > >> > property and molested women. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 30 June, at about 10:10 pm, Parvez Imroz and his family were > >> > attacked at home by state forces, who fired three shots and > hurled a > >> > grenade while exiting when family and community interrupted their > >> > attempts. Neighbours reported seeing one large armoured > vehicle and two > >> > Gypsy cars, and men in CRPF (Central Reserve Police Force) > and SOG > >> > (Special Operations Group) uniforms. This murder attempt is an > >> > escalation in the forms of state-led intimidation and > targeting aimed > >> > at Advocate Imroz. It is an attempt to make the Tribunal > vulnerable and > >> > instil fear in us in an attempt to stop this process. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 01 July, we met at Khurram Parvez's home before addressing > a press > >> > conference. Outside, jeeps with plainclothes men continued their > >> > observation, accompanied by a jeep with armed men in uniform. > Later,>> > Advocate Imroz, Khurram Parvez, Advocate Mihir Desai, > and I went to the > >> > police station to lodge a First Information Report. We were not > >> > permitted to do so. For security reasons, Parvez Imroz is not > staying>> > at home. Khurram Parvez remains under surveillance. I > must allow for > >> > distance before revisiting the graves. On 04 July, sitting on > a plane > >> > at Delhi International Airport, waiting to take-off, I > received a phone > >> > call on my India mobile, caller 'Unknown': "Madam, we know you're > >> > leaving. Think wisely before coming back". > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Orders to unnerve the leadership of the International > Tribunal by the > >> > Government of India's intelligence and security > administration appear > >> > to be generated at the highest levels. The general policy of > >> > surveillance should not be used as a pretext to create > obstacles for > >> > our work. As India argues for a seat on the United Nations > Security>> > Council, the Government of India, as 'Frontline > Defenders' stated in > >> > their recent alert supporting the Tribunal, must adhere to > its own > >> > repeated commitment to peace in Kashmir and international > conventions>> > and laws. It must uphold democratic governance and > safeguard human > >> > rights. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Advocate Imroz, Khurram Parvez, other members of the Tribunal > team,>> > have long experienced injustices for their extraordinary > work as human > >> > rights defenders. A lauded human rights lawyer, Parvez Imroz has > >> > survived two, now three, assassination attempts, the first from > >> > militants. Since 2005, his passport has been denied. Khurram > Parvez>> > lost his leg in a landmine incident. Gautam Navlakha > and Zahir-Ud-Din > >> > have been intimidated and threatened, as has Mihir Desai, in > their>> > larger work. It is noteworthy that the Government of > India is adding > >> > intimidation to the death and rape threats delivered me by Hindu > >> > extremists for human rights work. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > The work of the Tribunal is > >> > an act of conscience and accountability, fraught with the > charge of > >> > complex and violent histories. Its mandate, in documenting > Kashmir's>> > present, is to chronicle the fabric of > militarisation, status of human > >> > rights, and legal, political, militaristic 'states of > exception'. The > >> > Tribunal's work will continue through the coming months. We have > >> > received extensive solidarity from civil society; > victims/survivors, at > >> > street corners, from villagers, ordinary citizens, those > committed to > >> > justice. Each life in Kashmir has a story to tell. The > subjugation of > >> > civil society has produced magnificent ethical resistance. > The state > >> > cannot combat every individual. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Nearly two decades of genocidal violence record 70,000+ dead, > 8,000+>> > disappeared, 60,000+ tortured, 50,000+ orphaned, > incalculable>> > sexualised and gendered violence, a very high > rate of people with > >> > suicidal behaviours; hundreds of thousands displaced; > violations of > >> > promises, laws, conventions, agreements, treaties; mass > graves; mile > >> > upon mile of barbed wire; fear, suppression of varied demands for > >> > participation to determine Kashmir's future, spirals of violence, > >> > protracted silence. Last year, Kashmir's only hospital with > services>> > for mental health received 68,000 patients. Profound > social, economic, > >> > and psychological consequences, and an intense isolation have > impacted>> > private, public, and everyday life. It has generated > brutal resistance > >> > on the part of groups that have engaged in violent militancy. > >> > Repressions of struggles for self-determination and international > >> > policies/politics have yielded severe consequences, creating > a juncture > >> > at which the failure of governance intersects with a culture > of grief. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Torture survivors, non-militants and former militants, that I > met with > >> > testified to the sadism of the forces. Reportedly, a man, > hung upside > >> > down, had petrol injected through his anus. Water-boarding, > mutilation,>> > rape of women, children, and men, starvation, > psychological torture. > >> > Brutalised, 'healed', to be brutalised again. An eagle tattoo > on the > >> > arm of a man was reportedly identified by an army officer as > a symbol > >> > of Pakistan-held Azad Kashmir, even as the man clarified the > tattoo was > >> > from his childhood. The skin containing it was burned. The > officer, the > >> > man stated, said: "When you look at this, think of azadi". A > mother,>> > reportedly asked to watch her daughter's rape by army > personnel,>> > pleaded for her release. They refused. She pleaded > that she could not > >> > watch, asking to be sent out of the room or be killed. We > were told > >> > that the soldier pointed a gun to her forehead, stating he > would grant > >> > her wish, and shot her before they proceeded to rape the > daughter. We > >> > also spoke with persons violated by militants. One man stated > that>> > people's experiences with the reprehensible atrocities of > militancy do > >> > not imply the abdication of their desire for self- > determination. This, > >> > he stated, is a mistake the state makes, conflating militancy > with the > >> > intent for self-determination. He clarified that neither is > >> > self-determination an indication of allegiance to Pakistan, > largely to > >> > the contrary. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > The continuing and daunting presence of military and paramilitary > >> > forces, increased and sophisticated surveillance, merges with > pervasive>> > and immense suffering and anger of people in > villages, towns, and > >> > cities across Kashmir. Parallel to the presence of 500,000 > troops and > >> > commitment to nuclearisation, official figures state that > there are > >> > about 450 militants in Kashmir and that demilitarisation is > underway.>> > In March 2007, three government committees on > demilitarisation resolved > >> > that the 'low intensity war continues', placing in limbo troop > >> > reduction and the repealment of draconian laws -- the Armed > Forces>> > Special Powers Act, 1958, imposed in Jammu and Kashmir > in December > >> > 1990, and the Disturbed Areas Act, 1976, enacted in 1992. Local > >> > realities reflect that these laws and the military seek to > control the > >> > general population with impunity. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Kashmir is increasingly defined as a 'post-conflict' zone. > >> > 'Post-conflict' is not the propagation of tourism toward an overt > >> > display of nationalism. Post-conflict is a space in which to > heal,>> > reflect, and enable civil society participation in > determining peace > >> > and justice. The graves speak to those that listen. Those > haunted by > >> > history are called to remember. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > (Dr. > >> > Angana Chatterji is associate professor of Social and Cultural > >> > Anthropology at the California Institute of Integral Studies and > >> > co-convener of the International People's Tribunal in Kashmir.) > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > >> > >> > >> -- > >> /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > > > > > > -- > /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Tue Jul 15 13:00:15 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:30:15 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] two strange stories about women in india In-Reply-To: <33bc2ee60807150016gce98883nd18d7df46b5c784f@mail.gmail.com> References: <33bc2ee60807150016gce98883nd18d7df46b5c784f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Freedom of expression is in full appreciation. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Logos Theatre Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 12:47 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] two strange stories about women in india To: reader-list at sarai.net > Is there anybody on the list who is a good psychologist? I cannot > help but > get the feeling that M(r/s). Rajen is in dire need of professional > help.Either that, or s/he is a very clever posturer indeed. In > either case, s/he > deserves to be incarcerated for the malicious rape of the English > language.A > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:46:51 +0500 > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] two strange stories about women in india > > To: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > > Cc: sarai list > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Human behaviour is such that we always percieve the other side > of hills are > > greener, but truth of the matter is the fascination of white > skins to have > > sex with black, blacks undergoing the painful process of > becoming white is > > seen in all nations, Michael Jackson wheel chaired with his > white skin is > > grim reminder, to know that all are beautiful in their own way > in life, as > > they become good humans. A Bush who has no hesitation to kill > millions for > > his brand of democracy is more dangerous to humanity than the > creams which > > give temporary bleaching of the skin to give a tan or whitening > of the > > skin.? > > Regards. > > > > > > -- > > Logos Theatre > > In the beginning was the word > > No. 126, > > 3rd Main Road, > > Jayamahal Extension, > > Bangalore 560046 > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If it be now, 'tis not to come; > > if it be not to come, it will be now; > > if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all. > > Since no man has aught of what he leaves, what is't to leave > betimes?> Let be. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Jul 15 12:59:51 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:59:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: References: <699277.55914.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3CC0C2FC-7AF8-4084-AB6D-C7C77C8E278D@sarai.net> Er, Radhikarajen, You have still not answered Kshemendra's question. I still do not see how, when a state considers participating within an international system of co-operation on Nuclear Energy that requires members to clearly separate civil and nuclear facilities, in a manner that states do, for instance with regard to Chemical and Biological weapons, how, its prime minister becomes a lap dog of the US presidency. As a matter of fact, if India does go to the IAEA ( a body of which it is a member, already) it opens out possibilities of completely ignoring the United States of America. It does mean giving a set of guarantees to the International community about not acting like a rogue state with regard to Nuclear weapons. Of course, India, does not want to do that, just as it does not want to ratify the international convention against torture. The instruments of torture give a state so much leverage in terms of enjoying 'strategic autonomy' from the rights of its own citizens. I am not at all surprised that the brand of patriotism that is fretting and fuming so much about 'strategic autonomy' requires mandatory commitments to weapons of mass destruction and torture, but signing the IAEA does not amount to being anybody's lapdog. Many years ago, I remember that the representatives of the trade unions tied to the coat-tails of the Communist Parties of India (Marxist) and the Communist Party of India (unbracketed), had protested in unison with their colleagues who were sympathetic to the BJP and the Congress, against conforming to International standards on labour conditions, during discussions on what were termed the 'social clause' on workers rights in the WTO agreements. This was done on the grounds of the same patriotism. Meaning, they had wanted to protect the Indian bourgeoisie's right to super-exploit Indian workers, in order to protect 'Indian' Capital in the global market. It is natural that those who want to protect Capital against Labour should also want to hold on to Nuclear Weapons as a marker of strategic autonomy for the nation state. Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrels, and their bosses. regards Shuddha On 15-Jul-08, at 12:35 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > Kshemendra, > > lecturing is not debating or exchane of views, we have been > exchanging our thoughts, if you fell for lecturing it is your > choice, not mine. > > Tell me, please , by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear apartheid > will come to an end, is the feel and speculation, but at what > cost. ? Do you want the one billion citizens see their PM as lapdog > of American president.? > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:52 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> Dear Radhikarajen >> >> You are lecturing me on everything else but not addressing the >> simpler issues that would put things in perspective with regards >> to approaches to IAEA and subsequently the NSG. >> >> I repeat, going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand-alone >> issues and not connected with or to be clubbed with any "deal with >> the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA and NSG, they are to be >> thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National Interest". >> >> The (relative) HONESTY or DISHONESTY of Manmohan Singh is also >> inconsequential to the much more important issue of negotiations >> with IAEA and NSG being satisfactorily concluded. >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> >> >> --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net >> wrote: >> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 4:05 PM >> >> Kshemendra, >> >> yes, questions have questions in them, agreeable thoughts, how >> is it that >> these questions of nuclear deal were shrouded in darkness of >> classified lines >> for well over two years keeping the citizens in dark. ? >> >> Why suddenly now advertisements in media about the good deal that >> our Mr. >> Honest is keen about the deal. ? >> >> What prevented Mr. Honest to have a honest discussion of the >> deal in media >> and parliament instead of blanket answers that the deal is good, >> is in the >> national interest.? >> >> In any democracy, the classified documents are put to open >> domain after a >> period of certain number of years. they are de-classified for the >> citizens to >> know about the ommissions and commissions of the decision making >> process in >> democratic rule of that nation. India is perhaps one of the very >> few democratic >> countries which has not de-classified its classified documents >> till date even >> after being a free nation. >> >> In such a situation, the policy makers, the executors of the >> policies and >> the citizens who have a right to know the procedure of rule of >> laws are >> manipulating the records to suit their selfish interests, ? >> >> Even in UK and USA the documents are classified once they are >> archived after >> thirty years, that is documents upto 1978 are declassified that, >> the citizens >> know the misadventure or the good acts of babus, politicians and >> all. Such is >> the power of the citizens, that future babus and politicians will >> be well >> informed of the mistakes of the past. >> >> Do we have this in place. ? >> >> Regards. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Kshmendra Kaul >> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 2:25 pm >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> >>> Dear Radhikarajen >>> >>> Questions have a questioning in them so they cannot be Utopian. >> If >>> my answers sounded Utopian to you, then I would disagree with >> you >>> that they are so. >>> >>> You seemed to have missed the point (completely) in my questions >>> and my answers: >>> >>> 1. Going through the IAEA and NSG routines does not in any way >>> whatsoever mean that you have entered into the (legally >>> enforceable) deal with the USA. Do you disagree? >>> >>> 2. Successfully going through the IAEA and NSG routines leaves >>> India better placed to enter into a deal or deals with any >> country >>> of (nuclear) interest, an access which is currently blocked. USA >>> need not be one such country that India "deals' with. Do you >> disagree? >>> >>> Whether USA is an 'angelic' entity or a 'satanic' one does >> not >>> come into the picture. >>> >>> >>> Kshmendra >>> >>> >>> --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net >> >>> wrote: >>> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >>> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >>> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >>> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 12:38 PM >>> >>> Kshemendra, >>> >>> your questions are basically utopian and answers given by you >>> are only >>> theoratical and not practical, after the citizens of the world >>> have seen how if >>> you are with America, you have to be ready to recieve body bags >>> for the >>> misadventure of America for its leaders folly in Afghanistan >> and >>> Iraq.Australian PM Howard was seen by his citizens as lapdog of >>> Bush, do you need a >>> hairy happy lapdog of our PM on the lap of american president.? >>> >>> Regards. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Kshmendra Kaul >>> Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:07 pm >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >>> To: reader-list at sarai.net >>> >>>> Dear PK >>>> >>>> "Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the >> Imperialism." >>>> That sounds very very very "holier than thou" and pompous. >>>> >>>> Questions for you: >>>> >>>> 1. Does IAEA Agreement automatically place India in your >> feared >>>> "unholy matrimomy" (my words) with the USA? My answer is >> NO. >>> What >>>> is yours? >>>> >>>> 2. Does successful negotiation with the NSG automatically >> place >>>> India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" with the USA? My >> answer >>> is >>>> NO. What is yours? >>>> >>>> 3. Let us imagine that there is no USA, wouldn't India still >>> have >>>> to go the IAEA and NSG route if it wants to freed of current >>>> (nuclear) restrictions on it? My answer is YES. What is yours? >>>> >>>> 4. Does help received from the USA with the IAEA and NSG place >>>> India under any Legal obligation to (nuclear) deal thereafter >>> only >>>> or primarily with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours? >>>> >>>> Kshmendra >>>> >>>> >>>> --- On Sat, 7/12/08, prakash ray wrote: >>>> >>>> From: prakash ray >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >>>> To: reader-list at sarai.net >>>> Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 8:52 PM >>>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' ones >> (read >>>> Shuddha, >>>> Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the >> current >>>> debate over >>>> the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, have >>>> 'always'attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do not >>> want >>>> to blame them for >>>> their political positions, but I would accuse them for their >>>> shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive >>>> contribution or >>>> position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves >> 'liberated' >>> since >>>> we >>>> write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that >> our >>>> 'falsesense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our >> handsome >>>> salaries and >>>> convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that a >>>> sin. However, >>>> I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' >> approach. >>>> >>>> Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not >>>> articulate their >>>> position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear sacredness. >>>> Their belief >>>> of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based >> on >>> a >>>> reportappeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that they >>>> believe what the >>>> TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or >>> economic >>>> policiesetc. Shivam could have researched on the matter since >> he >>>> is a reporter >>>> himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support >>> extended >>>> by the >>>> Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting >>>> interviewed in >>>> the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every >>>> newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes >> interviews >>>> of the >>>> politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of the >>>> Salwa Judum >>>> infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at >> regular >>>> intervention >>>> and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R >>>> Narayanan on >>>> the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in place >> of the >>>> customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, the >>>> right-wingers >>>> get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about the >>> moderator >>>> or >>>> Shuddha himself? >>>> >>>> I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to the >> US >>>> administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and >>>> continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I do >>> not >>>> find any >>>> fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact >>> that >>>> the US and >>>> Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do >> not >>>> think the >>>> readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault if >>>> someone sees >>>> the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I >>> consider the >>>> nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on >> the >>>> poor and >>>> less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation >>>> against the >>>> policies and politics of the US. >>>> >>>> Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. >>>> >>>> Let me ask some simple questions: >>>> >>>> Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the >> Congress?> > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr Singh >> could go >>>> ahead with >>>> the Deal? >>>> Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit >> in >>>> elections if >>>> the Govt falls? >>>> Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left oppose >> or >>>> supporteverything only on the basis of the position taken by >> the >>> BJP?> Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology of >>> the >>>> 'clash of >>>> civilizations'? >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Prakash >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>> with >>>> subscribe in >>>> the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>>> list >>>> List archive: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>> with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>>> list >>>> List archive: >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>> list >>> List archive: >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 13:08:49 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:08:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Radhika, a nation can also become anyone's lapdog even without the nuclear deal. Or, like China it can make all kinds of deals and remain fiercely, scarily independent. There has been a trajectory since the early 1990's where India has opened up its markets and as a result grown closer to the globalised economy of the world. You have every right to criticise this. But please don't conflate the two. The IAEA is an international body. There are numerous nations represented in this organisation. All the IAEA will be doing is to ensure that the uranium that India says is to go towards manufacturing nuclear energy is not diverted to its weapons program. Of course you may criticise this too, saying India has the right to do what it wants with its uranium. But the point is that at the moment there isn't enough uranium to go around whether for its civilian or defence programs. So your protest is really quite meaningless in the end. Beggars can't be choosers, and in this case I'd say, thank god. It would be meaningful if someone came out and said they were opposing the deal because they were anti-nuclear weapons, because they have no place in the civilised world, or anti-nuclear energy because in the long run we have not yet found safe ways of disposing nuclear waste. But no one is doing this. Instead there are all kinds of vague, baseless accusations of a sell-out to America or that India's security is being compromised, a kind of trumpeting up some silly hyper-nationalism just because elections are around the corner. All these people who are so concerned about American imperialism have had not a word to say about Bhopal for example, the worst kind of imperialism, where an American corporation has got away, literally, with mass murder. Please note also that not a word has been said against the billions of dollars that India has spent in arms deals with the US and Israel. -sj On 7/15/08 12:35 PM, "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" wrote: > Kshemendra, lecturing is not debating or exchane of views, we have been > exchanging our thoughts, if you fell for lecturing it is your choice, not > mine. Tell me, please , by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear apartheid > will come to an end, is the feel and speculation, but at what cost. ? Do you > want the one billion citizens see their PM as lapdog of American president.? > Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:52 pm Subject: Re: > [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear > Radhikarajen >   > You are lecturing me on everything else but not addressing > the > simpler issues that would put things in perspective with regards > to > approaches to IAEA and subsequently the NSG. >   > I repeat, going through the > IAEA and NSG routines are stand-alone > issues and not connected with or to > be clubbed with any "deal with > the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA > and NSG, they are to be > thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National > Interest". >   > The (relative) HONESTY or DISHONESTY of Manmohan Singh is > also > inconsequential to the much more important issue of negotiations > > with IAEA and NSG being satisfactorily concluded. >   > Kshmendra >   >   > > > > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > wrote: > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Subject: Re: > [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: > reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 4:05 PM > > > Kshemendra, > > yes, questions have questions in them, agreeable thoughts, > how > is it that > these questions of nuclear deal were shrouded in darkness > of > classified lines > for well over two years keeping the citizens in dark. > ? > > Why suddenly now advertisements in media about the good deal that > > our Mr. > Honest is keen about the deal. ? > > What prevented Mr. Honest to > have a honest discussion of the > deal in media > and parliament instead of > blanket answers that the deal is good, > is in the > national interest.? > > > In any democracy, the classified documents are put to open > domain after a > > period of certain number of years. they are de-classified for the > citizens > to > know about the ommissions and commissions of the decision making > > process in > democratic rule of that nation. India is perhaps one of the very > > few democratic > countries which has not de-classified its classified > documents > till date even > after being a free nation. > > In such a > situation, the policy makers, the executors of the > policies and > the > citizens who have a right to know the procedure of rule of > laws are > > manipulating the records to suit their selfish interests, ? > > Even in UK > and USA the documents are classified once they are > archived after > thirty > years, that is documents upto 1978 are declassified that, > the citizens > > know the misadventure or the good acts of babus, politicians and > all. Such > is > the power of the citizens, that future babus and politicians will > be > well > informed of the mistakes of the past. > > Do we have this in place. > ? > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 2:25 pm > Subject: Re: > [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > Dear Radhikarajen > >   > > Questions have a questioning in them so they > cannot be Utopian. > If > > my answers sounded Utopian to you, then I would > disagree with > you > > that they are so. > >   > > You seemed to have > missed the point (completely) in my questions > > and my answers: > >   > > > 1. Going through the IAEA and NSG routines does not in any way > > whatsoever > mean that you have entered into the (legally > > enforceable) deal with the > USA. Do you disagree? > >   > > 2. Successfully going through the IAEA and NSG > routines leaves > > India better placed to enter into a deal or deals with > any > country > > of (nuclear) interest, an access which is currently > blocked. USA > > need not be one such country that India "deals' with. Do > you > disagree? > >   > > Whether USA is an 'angelic' entity or a 'satanic' > one does > not > > come into the picture. > >   > >   > > Kshmendra > >   > > > > > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > > wrote: > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > Subject: > Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > To: > kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Monday, July > 14, 2008, 12:38 PM > > > > Kshemendra, > > > > your questions are > basically utopian and answers given by you > > are only > > theoratical and > not practical, after the citizens of the world > > have seen how if > > you > are with America, you have to be ready to recieve body bags > > for the > > > misadventure of America for its leaders folly in Afghanistan > and > > > Iraq.Australian PM Howard was seen by his citizens as lapdog of > > Bush, do > you need a > > hairy happy lapdog of our PM on the lap of american > president.? > > > > Regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008 > 6:07 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > To: > reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > Dear PK > > >   > > > "Opposing the Deal is > to oppose every evil of the > Imperialism." > > > That sounds very very > very "holier than thou" and pompous. > > >   > > > Questions for you: > > > >   > > > 1. Does IAEA Agreement automatically place India in your > feared > > > > "unholy matrimomy" (my words) with the USA? My answer is > NO. > > What > > > > is yours? > > >   > > > 2. Does successful negotiation with the NSG > automatically > place > > > India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" with the > USA? My > answer > > is > > > NO. What is yours? > > >   > > > 3. Let us > imagine that there is no USA, wouldn't India still > > have > > > to go the > IAEA and NSG route if it wants to freed of current > > > > (nuclear) restrictions on it? My answer is YES. What is yours? > > >   > > > > 4. Does help received from the USA with the IAEA and NSG place > > > India > under any Legal obligation to (nuclear) deal thereafter > > only > > > or > primarily with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours?  > > >   > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 7/12/08, prakash ray > wrote: > > > > > > From: prakash ray > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid > Weimar > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, > 8:52 PM > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > It is not surprising to hear some > of the 'liberated' ones > (read > > > Shuddha, > > > Shivam and Salim) > mouthing anti-Left arguments over the > current > > > debate over > > > the > nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, have > > > > 'always'attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do not > > want > > > > to blame them for > > > their political positions, but I would accuse them for > their > > > shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive > > > > contribution or > > > position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves > > 'liberated' > > since > > > we > > > write, read and lecture, and we only do > that. We forget that > our > > > 'falsesense of liberation' is a mere > reflection of our > handsome > > > salaries and > > > convenient middle class > location. And I do not consider that a > > > sin. However, > > > I request > them to reconsider their 'holier than all' > approach. > > > > > > Coming to > the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not > > > articulate their > > > > position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear sacredness. > > > Their > belief > > > of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based > > on > > a > > > reportappeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that > they > > > believe what the > > > TOI and its associates say on the Deal or > the Nano car or > > economic > > > policiesetc. Shivam could have researched > on the matter since > he > > > is a reporter > > > himself. I would like to > hear from Shuddha on the support > > extended > > > by the > > > Left to the > UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting > > > interviewed in > > > the > Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every > > > > newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes > interviews > > > of > the > > > politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of the > > > > Salwa Judum > > > infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at > > regular > > > intervention > > > and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the > former President K R > > > Narayanan on > > > the eve of the Republic Day > which was telecast on DD in place > of the > > > customary prez speeches. And > here on the Sarai reder list, the > > > right-wingers > > > get more space. > Should one read it as 'something' about the > > moderator > > > or > > > > Shuddha himself? > > > > > > I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's > closeness to the > US > > > administration that is waging war against mankind > everywhere and > > > continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. > I do > > not > > > find any > > > fault if someone sees the Deal as > anti-Muslim given the fact > > that > > > the US and > > > Indian Govts are > continuously targeting the community. I do > not > > > think the > > > > readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault if > > > someone > sees > > > the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I > > > consider the > > > nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack > on > the > > > poor and > > > less-powerful nations. I support the alliance > of such nation > > > against the > > > policies and politics of the US. > > > > > > > Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. > > > > > > > Let me ask some simple questions: > > > > > > Was the Left wrong when > they supported the UPA led by the > Congress?> > Should the Left continue the > support so that Dr Singh > could go > > > ahead with > > > the Deal? > > > > Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit > in > > > > elections if > > > the Govt falls? > > > Since BJP has members in the > Loksabha, should the Left oppose > or > > > supporteverything only on the > basis of the position taken by > the > > BJP?> Are the policies of Mr Bush > not guided by the ideology of > > the > > > 'clash of > > > > civilizations'? > > > > > > Regards, > > > Prakash > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > > > subscribe in > > > the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List > archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List > archive: > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the > subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > List archive: > ______________________________ > ___________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List > archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 13:46:33 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 01:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <157161.55226.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Radhikarajen   Do I "want the one billion citizens see their PM as lapdog of American president.?" ?   No I do not.   Again, you are not only missing the point but seem to not know well the issues that you are talking about.   Let me repeat - Going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand-alone issues and not connected with or to be clubbed with any "deal with the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA and NSG, they are to be thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National Interest".   Your other point now. Yes "by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear apartheid will come to an end" to a large degree. It will defenitely be much better for India. There is no 'feel' factor or 'speculation' in that contention. It is factual.   In case you are tempted to refer to it, that there is hypocrisy in the 'nuclearisation ethics' of the 'nuclear' countries is also well known and accepted as fact.   It might (or might not be) pertinent to mention here that Vajpayee publicly declared that India was willing to join the CTBT regime without (there is no evidence to the contrary) the "nuclear apartheid" ending in totality. In many ways that was acceptance of and submission to not only the 'nuclear apartheid' but also the hypocrisy  in the 'nuclearisation ethics' of the 'nuclear' countries.   Kshmendra --- On Tue, 7/15/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 12:35 PM Kshemendra, lecturing is not debating or exchane of views, we have been exchanging our thoughts, if you fell for lecturing it is your choice, not mine. Tell me, please , by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear apartheid will come to an end, is the feel and speculation, but at what cost. ? Do you want the one billion citizens see their PM as lapdog of American president.? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:52 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear Radhikarajen >   > You are lecturing me on everything else but not addressing the > simpler issues that would put things in perspective with regards > to approaches to IAEA and subsequently the NSG. >   > I repeat, going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand-alone > issues and not connected with or to be clubbed with any "deal with > the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA and NSG, they are to be > thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National Interest". >   > The (relative) HONESTY or DISHONESTY of Manmohan Singh is also > inconsequential to the much more important issue of negotiations > with IAEA and NSG being satisfactorily concluded. >   > Kshmendra >   >   > > > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net > wrote: > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 4:05 PM > > Kshemendra, > > yes, questions have questions in them, agreeable thoughts, how > is it that > these questions of nuclear deal were shrouded in darkness of > classified lines > for well over two years keeping the citizens in dark. ? > > Why suddenly now advertisements in media about the good deal that > our Mr. > Honest is keen about the deal. ? > > What prevented Mr. Honest to have a honest discussion of the > deal in media > and parliament instead of blanket answers that the deal is good, > is in the > national interest.? > > In any democracy, the classified documents are put to open > domain after a > period of certain number of years. they are de-classified for the > citizens to > know about the ommissions and commissions of the decision making > process in > democratic rule of that nation. India is perhaps one of the very > few democratic > countries which has not de-classified its classified documents > till date even > after being a free nation. > > In such a situation, the policy makers, the executors of the > policies and > the citizens who have a right to know the procedure of rule of > laws are > manipulating the records to suit their selfish interests, ? > > Even in UK and USA the documents are classified once they are > archived after > thirty years, that is documents upto 1978 are declassified that, > the citizens > know the misadventure or the good acts of babus, politicians and > all. Such is > the power of the citizens, that future babus and politicians will > be well > informed of the mistakes of the past. > > Do we have this in place. ? > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 2:25 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Dear Radhikarajen > >   > > Questions have a questioning in them so they cannot be Utopian. > If > > my answers sounded Utopian to you, then I would disagree with > you > > that they are so. > >   > > You seemed to have missed the point (completely) in my questions > > and my answers: > >   > > 1. Going through the IAEA and NSG routines does not in any way > > whatsoever mean that you have entered into the (legally > > enforceable) deal with the USA. Do you disagree? > >   > > 2. Successfully going through the IAEA and NSG routines leaves > > India better placed to enter into a deal or deals with any > country > > of (nuclear) interest, an access which is currently blocked. USA > > need not be one such country that India "deals' with. Do you > disagree? > >   > > Whether USA is an 'angelic' entity or a 'satanic' one does > not > > come into the picture. > >   > >   > > Kshmendra > >   > > > > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > wrote: > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 12:38 PM > > > > Kshemendra, > > > > your questions are basically utopian and answers given by you > > are only > > theoratical and not practical, after the citizens of the world > > have seen how if > > you are with America, you have to be ready to recieve body bags > > for the > > misadventure of America for its leaders folly in Afghanistan > and > > Iraq.Australian PM Howard was seen by his citizens as lapdog of > > Bush, do you need a > > hairy happy lapdog of our PM on the lap of american president.? > > > > Regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:07 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > Dear PK > > >   > > > "Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the > Imperialism." > > > That sounds very very very "holier than thou" and pompous. > > >   > > > Questions for you: > > >   > > > 1. Does IAEA Agreement automatically place India in your > feared > > > "unholy matrimomy" (my words) with the USA? My answer is > NO. > > What > > > is yours? > > >   > > > 2. Does successful negotiation with the NSG automatically > place > > > India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" with the USA? My > answer > > is > > > NO. What is yours? > > >   > > > 3. Let us imagine that there is no USA, wouldn't India still > > have > > > to go the IAEA and NSG route if it wants to freed of current > > > (nuclear) restrictions on it? My answer is YES. What is yours? > > >   > > > 4. Does help received from the USA with the IAEA and NSG place > > > India under any Legal obligation to (nuclear) deal thereafter > > only > > > or primarily with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours?  > > >   > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 7/12/08, prakash ray wrote: > > > > > > From: prakash ray > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 8:52 PM > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' ones > (read > > > Shuddha, > > > Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the > current > > > debate over > > > the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, have > > > 'always'attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do not > > want > > > to blame them for > > > their political positions, but I would accuse them for their > > > shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive > > > contribution or > > > position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves > 'liberated' > > since > > > we > > > write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that > our > > > 'falsesense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our > handsome > > > salaries and > > > convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that a > > > sin. However, > > > I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' > approach. > > > > > > Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not > > > articulate their > > > position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear sacredness. > > > Their belief > > > of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based > on > > a > > > reportappeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that they > > > believe what the > > > TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or > > economic > > > policiesetc. Shivam could have researched on the matter since > he > > > is a reporter > > > himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support > > extended > > > by the > > > Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting > > > interviewed in > > > the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every > > > newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes > interviews > > > of the > > > politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of the > > > Salwa Judum > > > infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at > regular > > > intervention > > > and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R > > > Narayanan on > > > the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in place > of the > > > customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, the > > > right-wingers > > > get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about the > > moderator > > > or > > > Shuddha himself? > > > > > > I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to the > US > > > administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and > > > continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I do > > not > > > find any > > > fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact > > that > > > the US and > > > Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do > not > > > think the > > > readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault if > > > someone sees > > > the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I > > consider the > > > nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on > the > > > poor and > > > less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation > > > against the > > > policies and politics of the US. > > > > > > Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. > > > > > > Let me ask some simple questions: > > > > > > Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the > Congress?> > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr Singh > could go > > > ahead with > > > the Deal? > > > Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit > in > > > elections if > > > the Govt falls? > > > Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left oppose > or > > > supporteverything only on the basis of the position taken by > the > > BJP?> Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology of > > the > > > 'clash of > > > civilizations'? > > > > > > Regards, > > > Prakash > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > > subscribe in > > > the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 13:52:07 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 01:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <3CC0C2FC-7AF8-4084-AB6D-C7C77C8E278D@sarai.net> Message-ID: <821564.57295.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com>   Shuddha just called me a scoundrel. --- On Tue, 7/15/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Cc: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, reader-list at sarai.net Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 12:59 PM Er,  Radhikarajen,  You have still not answered Kshemendra's question. I still do not see how, when a state considers participating within an international system of co-operation on Nuclear Energy that requires members to clearly separate civil and nuclear facilities, in a manner that states do, for instance with regard to Chemical and Biological weapons, how, its prime minister becomes a lap dog of the US presidency. As a matter of fact, if India does go to the IAEA ( a body of which it is a member, already) it opens out possibilities of completely ignoring the United States of America. It does mean giving a set of guarantees to the International community about not acting like a rogue state with regard to Nuclear weapons. Of course, India, does not want to do that, just as it does not want to ratify the international convention against torture. The instruments of torture give a state so much leverage in terms of enjoying 'strategic autonomy' from the rights of its own citizens. I am not at all surprised that the brand of patriotism that is fretting and fuming so much about 'strategic autonomy' requires mandatory commitments to weapons of mass destruction and torture, but signing the IAEA does not amount to being anybody's lapdog. Many years ago, I remember that the representatives of the trade unions tied to the coat-tails of the Communist Parties of India (Marxist) and the Communist Party of India (unbracketed), had protested in unison with their colleagues who were sympathetic to the BJP and the Congress, against conforming to International standards on labour conditions, during discussions on what were termed the 'social clause' on workers rights in the WTO agreements. This was done on the grounds of the same patriotism. Meaning, they had wanted to protect the Indian bourgeoisie's right to super-exploit Indian workers, in order to protect 'Indian' Capital in the global market.  It is natural that those who want to protect Capital against Labour should also want to hold on to Nuclear Weapons as a marker of strategic autonomy for the nation state.  Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrels, and their bosses. regards Shuddha On 15-Jul-08, at 12:35 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: Kshemendra,   lecturing is not debating or exchane of views, we have been exchanging our thoughts, if you fell for lecturing it is your choice, not mine.   Tell me, please , by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear apartheid will come to an end, is the feel and speculation, but at what cost. ? Do you want the one billion citizens see their PM as lapdog of American president.?     Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:52 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: reader-list at sarai.net Dear Radhikarajen   You are lecturing me on everything else but not addressing the   simpler issues that would put things in perspective with regards   to approaches to IAEA and subsequently the NSG.   I repeat, going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand-alone   issues and not connected with or to be clubbed with any "deal with   the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA and NSG, they are to be   thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National Interest".     The (relative) HONESTY or DISHONESTY of Manmohan Singh is also   inconsequential to the much more important issue of negotiations   with IAEA and NSG being satisfactorily concluded.   Kshmendra     --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net   wrote: From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 4:05 PM Kshemendra,   yes, questions have questions in them, agreeable thoughts, how   is it that these questions of nuclear deal were shrouded in darkness of   classified lines for well over two years keeping the citizens in dark. ? Why suddenly now advertisements in media about the good deal that   our Mr. Honest is keen about the deal. ?   What prevented Mr. Honest to have a honest discussion of the   deal in media and parliament instead of blanket answers that the deal is good,   is in the national interest.?   In any democracy, the classified documents are put to open   domain after a period of certain number of years. they are de-classified for the   citizens to know about the ommissions and commissions of the decision making   process in democratic rule of that nation. India is perhaps one of the very   few democratic countries which has not de-classified its classified documents   till date even after being a free nation.   In such a situation, the policy makers, the executors of the   policies and the citizens who have a right to know the procedure of rule of   laws are manipulating the records to suit their selfish interests, ? Even in UK and USA the documents are classified once they are   archived after thirty years, that is documents upto 1978 are declassified that,   the citizens know the misadventure or the good acts of babus, politicians and   all. Such is the power of the citizens, that future babus and politicians will   be well informed of the mistakes of the past. Do we have this in place. ? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 2:25 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: reader-list at sarai.net Dear Radhikarajen   Questions have a questioning in them so they cannot be Utopian.   If   my answers sounded Utopian to you, then I would disagree with   you   that they are so.   You seemed to have missed the point (completely) in my questions   and my answers:   1. Going through the IAEA and NSG routines does not in any way   whatsoever mean that you have entered into the (legally   enforceable) deal with the USA. Do you disagree?   2. Successfully going through the IAEA and NSG routines leaves   India better placed to enter into a deal or deals with any   country   of (nuclear) interest, an access which is currently blocked. USA   need not be one such country that India "deals' with. Do you disagree?   Whether USA is an 'angelic' entity or a 'satanic' one does not   come into the picture.     Kshmendra   --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net     wrote: From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 12:38 PM Kshemendra,     your questions are basically utopian and answers given by you   are only theoratical and not practical, after the citizens of the world   have seen how if you are with America, you have to be ready to recieve body bags   for the misadventure of America for its leaders folly in   Afghanistan   and   Iraq.Australian PM Howard was seen by his citizens as lapdog of   Bush, do you need a hairy happy lapdog of our PM on the lap of american president.?   Regards.   ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:07 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: reader-list at sarai.net Dear PK   "Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism."   That sounds very very very "holier than thou" and pompous.   Questions for you:   1. Does IAEA Agreement automatically place India in your   feared   "unholy matrimomy" (my words) with the USA? My answer is NO. What   is yours?   2. Does successful negotiation with the NSG automatically   place   India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" with the USA? My answer is   NO. What is yours?   3. Let us imagine that there is no USA, wouldn't India still   have   to go the IAEA and NSG route if it wants to freed of current   (nuclear) restrictions on it? My answer is YES. What is yours?   4. Does help received from the USA with the IAEA and NSG place   India under any Legal obligation to (nuclear) deal thereafter   only   or primarily with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours?    Kshmendra --- On Sat, 7/12/08, prakash ray wrote: From: prakash ray Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 8:52 PM Dear all, It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' ones (read Shuddha, Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the   current   debate over the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, have   'always'attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do not   want   to blame them for their political positions, but I would accuse them for their shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive   contribution or position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves 'liberated' since we write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that   our   'falsesense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our handsome   salaries and convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that a   sin. However, I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' approach. Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not   articulate their position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear sacredness.   Their belief of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based   on   a   reportappeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that they   believe what the TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or   economic   policiesetc. Shivam could have researched on the matter since   he   is a reporter himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support   extended   by the Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting   interviewed in the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes   interviews   of the politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of the   Salwa Judum infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at regular intervention and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R   Narayanan on the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in place   of the customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, the   right-wingers get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about the moderator or Shuddha himself? I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to the US administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I do   not   find any fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact   that   the US and Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do   not   think the readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault if   someone sees the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I   consider the nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on   the   poor and less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation   against the policies and politics of the US. Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. Let me ask some simple questions: Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the   Congress?> > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr Singh   could go   ahead with the Deal? Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit   in   elections if the Govt falls? Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left oppose   or   supporteverything only on the basis of the position taken by   the   BJP?> Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology of   the   'clash of civilizations'? Regards, Prakash _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net   with   subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- list   List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net   with   subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- list   List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net   with   subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- list   List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with   subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- list   List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list   List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Jul 15 13:56:24 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:56:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <821564.57295.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <821564.57295.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <76B55901-3187-40F1-A0D2-0FC90AA289DF@sarai.net> No I did not Kshemendra, I was only paraphrasing Samuel Johnson's well known quip on patriotism and scoundrels to suggest that those who take recourse to the 'patriotic' impulse to defend the indefensible, such as nuclear weapons and torture, and the exploitation of labour by capital, are scoundrels. Is that a description that fits you? If it does, I have no further comment to make. I appreciate your contributions to the debate on the nuclear deal that we have been having on this list, and I agree with it at some points, disagree with it at others. Please do not trivialize this discussion with hasty one liners, one expects better of you, thanks and regards Shuddha On 15-Jul-08, at 1:52 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Shuddha just called me a scoundrel. > > --- On Tue, 7/15/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Cc: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 12:59 PM > > Er, > > > > Radhikarajen, > > > > You have still not answered Kshemendra's question. > > > > I still do not see how, when a state considers participating within > an international system of co-operation on Nuclear Energy that > requires members to clearly separate civil and nuclear facilities, > in a manner that states do, for instance with regard to Chemical > and Biological weapons, how, its prime minister becomes a lap dog > of the US presidency. As a matter of fact, if India does go to the > IAEA ( a body of which it is a member, already) it opens out > possibilities of completely ignoring the United States of America. > It does mean giving a set of guarantees to the International > community about not acting like a rogue state with regard to > Nuclear weapons. Of course, India, does not want to do that, just > as it does not want to ratify the international convention against > torture. The instruments of torture give a state so much leverage > in terms of enjoying 'strategic autonomy' from the rights of its > own citizens. > > > > I am not at all surprised that the brand of patriotism that is > fretting and fuming so much about 'strategic autonomy' requires > mandatory commitments to weapons of mass destruction and torture, > but signing the IAEA does not amount to being anybody's lapdog. > Many years ago, I remember that the representatives of the trade > unions tied to the coat-tails of the Communist Parties of India > (Marxist) and the Communist Party of India (unbracketed), had > protested in unison with their colleagues who were sympathetic to > the BJP and the Congress, against conforming to International > standards on labour conditions, during discussions on what were > termed the 'social clause' on workers rights in the WTO agreements. > This was done on the grounds of the same patriotism. Meaning, they > had wanted to protect the Indian bourgeoisie's right to super- > exploit Indian workers, in order to protect 'Indian' Capital in the > global market. > > > > It is natural that those who want to protect Capital against Labour > should also want to hold on to Nuclear Weapons as a marker of > strategic autonomy for the nation state. > > > > Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrels, and their bosses. > > > > regards > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > On 15-Jul-08, at 12:35 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > >> Kshemendra, >> >> >> >> lecturing is not debating or exchane of views, we have been >> exchanging our thoughts, if you fell for lecturing it is your >> choice, not mine. >> >> >> >> Tell me, please , by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear >> apartheid will come to an end, is the feel and speculation, but at >> what cost. ? Do you want the one billion citizens see their PM as >> lapdog of American president.? >> >> >> >> Regards. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Kshmendra Kaul >> >> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:52 pm >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> >> >> >>> Dear Radhikarajen >>> >>> >>> You are lecturing me on everything else but not addressing the >>> >>> simpler issues that would put things in perspective with regards >>> >>> to approaches to IAEA and subsequently the NSG. >>> >>> >>> I repeat, going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand-alone >>> >>> issues and not connected with or to be clubbed with any "deal with >>> >>> the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA and NSG, they are to be >>> >>> thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National Interest". >>> >>> >>> The (relative) HONESTY or DISHONESTY of Manmohan Singh is also >>> >>> inconsequential to the much more important issue of negotiations >>> >>> with IAEA and NSG being satisfactorily concluded. >>> >>> >>> Kshmendra >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >>> >>> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >>> >>> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >>> >>> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 4:05 PM >>> >>> >>> >>> Kshemendra, >>> >>> >>> >>> yes, questions have questions in them, agreeable thoughts, how >>> >>> is it that >>> >>> these questions of nuclear deal were shrouded in darkness of >>> >>> classified lines >>> >>> for well over two years keeping the citizens in dark. ? >>> >>> >>> >>> Why suddenly now advertisements in media about the good deal that >>> >>> our Mr. >>> >>> Honest is keen about the deal. ? >>> >>> >>> >>> What prevented Mr. Honest to have a honest discussion of the >>> >>> deal in media >>> >>> and parliament instead of blanket answers that the deal is good, >>> >>> is in the >>> >>> national interest.? >>> >>> >>> >>> In any democracy, the classified documents are put to open >>> >>> domain after a >>> >>> period of certain number of years. they are de-classified for the >>> >>> citizens to >>> >>> know about the ommissions and commissions of the decision making >>> >>> process in >>> >>> democratic rule of that nation. India is perhaps one of the very >>> >>> few democratic >>> >>> countries which has not de-classified its classified documents >>> >>> till date even >>> >>> after being a free nation. >>> >>> >>> >>> In such a situation, the policy makers, the executors of the >>> >>> policies and >>> >>> the citizens who have a right to know the procedure of rule of >>> >>> laws are >>> >>> manipulating the records to suit their selfish interests, ? >>> >>> >>> >>> Even in UK and USA the documents are classified once they are >>> >>> archived after >>> >>> thirty years, that is documents upto 1978 are declassified that, >>> >>> the citizens >>> >>> know the misadventure or the good acts of babus, politicians and >>> >>> all. Such is >>> >>> the power of the citizens, that future babus and politicians will >>> >>> be well >>> >>> informed of the mistakes of the past. >>> >>> >>> >>> Do we have this in place. ? >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> From: Kshmendra Kaul >>> >>> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 2:25 pm >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >>> >>> To: reader-list at sarai.net >>> >>> >>> >>>> Dear Radhikarajen >>>> >>>> >>>> Questions have a questioning in them so they cannot be Utopian. >>>> >>> If >>> >>>> my answers sounded Utopian to you, then I would disagree with >>>> >>> you >>> >>>> that they are so. >>>> >>>> >>>> You seemed to have missed the point (completely) in my questions >>>> >>>> and my answers: >>>> >>>> >>>> 1. Going through the IAEA and NSG routines does not in any way >>>> >>>> whatsoever mean that you have entered into the (legally >>>> >>>> enforceable) deal with the USA. Do you disagree? >>>> >>>> >>>> 2. Successfully going through the IAEA and NSG routines leaves >>>> >>>> India better placed to enter into a deal or deals with any >>>> >>> country >>> >>>> of (nuclear) interest, an access which is currently blocked. USA >>>> >>>> need not be one such country that India "deals' with. Do you >>>> >>> disagree? >>> >>>> >>>> Whether USA is an 'angelic' entity or a 'satanic' one does >>>> >>> not >>> >>>> come into the picture. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kshmendra >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net >>>> >>> >>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >>>> >>>> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >>>> >>>> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >>>> >>>> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 12:38 PM >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kshemendra, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> your questions are basically utopian and answers given by you >>>> >>>> are only >>>> >>>> theoratical and not practical, after the citizens of the world >>>> >>>> have seen how if >>>> >>>> you are with America, you have to be ready to recieve body bags >>>> >>>> for the >>>> >>>> misadventure of America for its leaders folly in Afghanistan >>>> >>> and >>> >>>> Iraq.Australian PM Howard was seen by his citizens as lapdog of >>>> >>>> Bush, do you need a >>>> >>>> hairy happy lapdog of our PM on the lap of american president.? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >>>> From: Kshmendra Kaul >>>> >>>> Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:07 pm >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >>>> >>>> To: reader-list at sarai.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Dear PK >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the >>>>> >>> Imperialism." >>> >>>>> That sounds very very very "holier than thou" and pompous. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Questions for you: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1. Does IAEA Agreement automatically place India in your >>>>> >>> feared >>> >>>>> "unholy matrimomy" (my words) with the USA? My answer is >>>>> >>> NO. >>> >>>> What >>>> >>>>> is yours? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2. Does successful negotiation with the NSG automatically >>>>> >>> place >>> >>>>> India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" with the USA? My >>>>> >>> answer >>> >>>> is >>>> >>>>> NO. What is yours? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 3. Let us imagine that there is no USA, wouldn't India still >>>>> >>>> have >>>> >>>>> to go the IAEA and NSG route if it wants to freed of current >>>>> >>>>> (nuclear) restrictions on it? My answer is YES. What is yours? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 4. Does help received from the USA with the IAEA and NSG place >>>>> >>>>> India under any Legal obligation to (nuclear) deal thereafter >>>>> >>>> only >>>> >>>>> or primarily with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Kshmendra >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- On Sat, 7/12/08, prakash ray wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: prakash ray >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >>>>> >>>>> To: reader-list at sarai.net >>>>> >>>>> Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 8:52 PM >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dear all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' ones >>>>> >>> (read >>> >>>>> Shuddha, >>>>> >>>>> Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the >>>>> >>> current >>> >>>>> debate over >>>>> >>>>> the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, have >>>>> >>>>> 'always'attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do not >>>>> >>>> want >>>> >>>>> to blame them for >>>>> >>>>> their political positions, but I would accuse them for their >>>>> >>>>> shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive >>>>> >>>>> contribution or >>>>> >>>>> position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves >>>>> >>> 'liberated' >>> >>>> since >>>> >>>>> we >>>>> >>>>> write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that >>>>> >>> our >>> >>>>> 'falsesense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our >>>>> >>> handsome >>> >>>>> salaries and >>>>> >>>>> convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that a >>>>> >>>>> sin. However, >>>>> >>>>> I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' >>>>> >>> approach. >>> >>>>> >>>>> Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not >>>>> >>>>> articulate their >>>>> >>>>> position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear sacredness. >>>>> >>>>> Their belief >>>>> >>>>> of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based >>>>> >>> on >>> >>>> a >>>> >>>>> reportappeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that they >>>>> >>>>> believe what the >>>>> >>>>> TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or >>>>> >>>> economic >>>> >>>>> policiesetc. Shivam could have researched on the matter since >>>>> >>> he >>> >>>>> is a reporter >>>>> >>>>> himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support >>>>> >>>> extended >>>> >>>>> by the >>>>> >>>>> Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting >>>>> >>>>> interviewed in >>>>> >>>>> the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every >>>>> >>>>> newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes >>>>> >>> interviews >>> >>>>> of the >>>>> >>>>> politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of the >>>>> >>>>> Salwa Judum >>>>> >>>>> infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at >>>>> >>> regular >>> >>>>> intervention >>>>> >>>>> and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R >>>>> >>>>> Narayanan on >>>>> >>>>> the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in place >>>>> >>> of the >>> >>>>> customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, the >>>>> >>>>> right-wingers >>>>> >>>>> get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about the >>>>> >>>> moderator >>>> >>>>> or >>>>> >>>>> Shuddha himself? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to the >>>>> >>> US >>> >>>>> administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and >>>>> >>>>> continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I do >>>>> >>>> not >>>> >>>>> find any >>>>> >>>>> fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact >>>>> >>>> that >>>> >>>>> the US and >>>>> >>>>> Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do >>>>> >>> not >>> >>>>> think the >>>>> >>>>> readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault if >>>>> >>>>> someone sees >>>>> >>>>> the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I >>>>> >>>> consider the >>>> >>>>> nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on >>>>> >>> the >>> >>>>> poor and >>>>> >>>>> less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation >>>>> >>>>> against the >>>>> >>>>> policies and politics of the US. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Let me ask some simple questions: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the >>>>> >>> Congress?> > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr Singh >>> >>> could go >>> >>>>> ahead with >>>>> >>>>> the Deal? >>>>> >>>>> Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit >>>>> >>> in >>> >>>>> elections if >>>>> >>>>> the Govt falls? >>>>> >>>>> Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left oppose >>>>> >>> or >>> >>>>> supporteverything only on the basis of the position taken by >>>>> >>> the >>> >>>> BJP?> Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology of >>>> >>>> the >>>> >>>>> 'clash of >>>>> >>>>> civilizations'? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Prakash >>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>>> >>>> with >>>> >>>>> subscribe in >>>>> >>>>> the subject header. >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>>>> >>>>> list >>>>> >>>>> List archive: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>>> >>>> with >>>> >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>>>> >>>>> list >>>>> >>>>> List archive: >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>> >>> with >>> >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>>> >>>> list >>>> >>>> List archive: >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>> >>> list >>> >>> List archive: >>> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 14:51:50 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 02:21:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <76B55901-3187-40F1-A0D2-0FC90AA289DF@sarai.net> Message-ID: <97455.56201.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Shuddha   It was said in jest   K --- On Tue, 7/15/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 1:56 PM No I did not Kshemendra,  I was only paraphrasing Samuel Johnson's well known quip on patriotism and scoundrels to suggest that those who take recourse to the 'patriotic' impulse to defend the indefensible, such as nuclear weapons and torture, and the exploitation of labour by capital, are scoundrels. Is that a description that fits you? If it does, I have no further comment to make. I appreciate your contributions to the debate on the nuclear deal that we have been having on this list, and I agree with it at some points, disagree with it at others.  Please do not trivialize this discussion with hasty one liners, one expects better of you,  thanks and regards Shuddha On 15-Jul-08, at 1:52 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote:   Shuddha just called me a scoundrel. --- On Tue, 7/15/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Cc: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, reader-list at sarai.net Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 12:59 PM Er,  Radhikarajen,  You have still not answered Kshemendra's question. I still do not see how, when a state considers participating within an international system of co-operation on Nuclear Energy that requires members to clearly separate civil and nuclear facilities, in a manner that states do, for instance with regard to Chemical and Biological weapons, how, its prime minister becomes a lap dog of the US presidency. As a matter of fact, if India does go to the IAEA ( a body of which it is a member, already) it opens out possibilities of completely ignoring the United States of America. It does mean giving a set of guarantees to the International community about not acting like a rogue state with regard to Nuclear weapons. Of course, India, does not want to do that, just as it does not want to ratify the international convention against torture. The instruments of torture give a state so much leverage in terms of enjoying 'strategic autonomy' from the rights of its own citizens. I am not at all surprised that the brand of patriotism that is fretting and fuming so much about 'strategic autonomy' requires mandatory commitments to weapons of mass destruction and torture, but signing the IAEA does not amount to being anybody's lapdog. Many years ago, I remember that the representatives of the trade unions tied to the coat-tails of the Communist Parties of India (Marxist) and the Communist Party of India (unbracketed), had protested in unison with their colleagues who were sympathetic to the BJP and the Congress, against conforming to International standards on labour conditions, during discussions on what were termed the 'social clause' on workers rights in the WTO agreements. This was done on the grounds of the same patriotism. Meaning, they had wanted to protect the Indian bourgeoisie's right to super-exploit Indian workers, in order to protect 'Indian' Capital in the global market.  It is natural that those who want to protect Capital against Labour should also want to hold on to Nuclear Weapons as a marker of strategic autonomy for the nation state.  Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrels, and their bosses. regards Shuddha On 15-Jul-08, at 12:35 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: Kshemendra,   lecturing is not debating or exchane of views, we have been exchanging our thoughts, if you fell for lecturing it is your choice, not mine.   Tell me, please , by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear apartheid will come to an end, is the feel and speculation, but at what cost. ? Do you want the one billion citizens see their PM as lapdog of American president.?     Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:52 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: reader-list at sarai.net Dear Radhikarajen   You are lecturing me on everything else but not addressing the   simpler issues that would put things in perspective with regards   to approaches to IAEA and subsequently the NSG.   I repeat, going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand-alone   issues and not connected with or to be clubbed with any "deal with   the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA and NSG, they are to be   thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National Interest".     The (relative) HONESTY or DISHONESTY of Manmohan Singh is also   inconsequential to the much more important issue of negotiations   with IAEA and NSG being satisfactorily concluded.   Kshmendra     --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net   wrote: From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 4:05 PM Kshemendra,   yes, questions have questions in them, agreeable thoughts, how   is it that these questions of nuclear deal were shrouded in darkness of   classified lines for well over two years keeping the citizens in dark. ? Why suddenly now advertisements in media about the good deal that   our Mr. Honest is keen about the deal. ?   What prevented Mr. Honest to have a honest discussion of the   deal in media and parliament instead of blanket answers that the deal is good,   is in the national interest.?   In any democracy, the classified documents are put to open   domain after a period of certain number of years. they are de-classified for the   citizens to know about the ommissions and commissions of the decision making   process in democratic rule of that nation. India is perhaps one of the very   few democratic countries which has not de-classified its classified documents   till date even after being a free nation.   In such a situation, the policy makers, the executors of the   policies and the citizens who have a right to know the procedure of rule of   laws are manipulating the records to suit their selfish interests, ? Even in UK and USA the documents are classified once they are   archived after thirty years, that is documents upto 1978 are declassified that,   the citizens know the misadventure or the good acts of babus, politicians and   all. Such is the power of the citizens, that future babus and politicians will   be well informed of the mistakes of the past. Do we have this in place. ? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 2:25 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: reader-list at sarai.net Dear Radhikarajen   Questions have a questioning in them so they cannot be Utopian.   If   my answers sounded Utopian to you, then I would disagree with   you   that they are so.   You seemed to have missed the point (completely) in my questions   and my answers:   1. Going through the IAEA and NSG routines does not in any way   whatsoever mean that you have entered into the (legally   enforceable) deal with the USA. Do you disagree?   2. Successfully going through the IAEA and NSG routines leaves   India better placed to enter into a deal or deals with any   country   of (nuclear) interest, an access which is currently blocked. USA   need not be one such country that India "deals' with. Do you disagree?   Whether USA is an 'angelic' entity or a 'satanic' one does not   come into the picture.     Kshmendra   --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net     wrote: From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 12:38 PM Kshemendra,     your questions are basically utopian and answers given by you   are only theoratical and not practical, after the citizens of the world   have seen how if you are with America, you have to be ready to recieve body bags   for the misadventure of America for its leaders folly in   Afghanistan   and   Iraq.Australian PM Howard was seen by his citizens as lapdog of   Bush, do you need a hairy happy lapdog of our PM on the lap of american president.?   Regards.   ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:07 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: reader-list at sarai.net Dear PK   "Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism."   That sounds very very very "holier than thou" and pompous.   Questions for you:   1. Does IAEA Agreement automatically place India in your   feared   "unholy matrimomy" (my words) with the USA? My answer is NO. What   is yours?   2. Does successful negotiation with the NSG automatically   place   India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" with the USA? My answer is   NO. What is yours?   3. Let us imagine that there is no USA, wouldn't India still   have   to go the IAEA and NSG route if it wants to freed of current   (nuclear) restrictions on it? My answer is YES. What is yours?   4. Does help received from the USA with the IAEA and NSG place   India under any Legal obligation to (nuclear) deal thereafter   only   or primarily with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours?    Kshmendra --- On Sat, 7/12/08, prakash ray wrote: From: prakash ray Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 8:52 PM Dear all, It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' ones (read Shuddha, Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the   current   debate over the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, have   'always'attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do not   want   to blame them for their political positions, but I would accuse them for their shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive   contribution or position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves 'liberated' since we write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that   our   'falsesense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our handsome   salaries and convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that a   sin. However, I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' approach. Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not   articulate their position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear sacredness.   Their belief of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based   on   a   reportappeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that they   believe what the TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or   economic   policiesetc. Shivam could have researched on the matter since   he   is a reporter himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support   extended   by the Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting   interviewed in the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes   interviews   of the politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of the   Salwa Judum infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at regular intervention and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R   Narayanan on the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in place   of the customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, the   right-wingers get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about the moderator or Shuddha himself? I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to the US administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I do   not   find any fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact   that   the US and Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do   not   think the readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault if   someone sees the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I   consider the nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on   the   poor and less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation   against the policies and politics of the US. Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. Let me ask some simple questions: Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the   Congress?> > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr Singh   could go   ahead with the Deal? Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit   in   elections if the Govt falls? Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left oppose   or   supporteverything only on the basis of the position taken by   the   BJP?> Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology of   the   'clash of civilizations'? Regards, Prakash _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net   with   subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- list   List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net   with   subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- list   List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net   with   subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- list   List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with   subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- list   List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list   List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From yasir.media at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 15:19:11 2008 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?WINDOWS-1256?Q?yasir_~=ED=C7_=D3=D1?=) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 02:49:11 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] pixel war In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0807140529g1ed76619p17da8c986382e96e@mail.gmail.com> References: <5af37bb0807140526v5a8ddbfq95b19606de20b3c5@mail.gmail.com> <5af37bb0807140526j4499c405n3abd1beab9dacfca@mail.gmail.com> <5af37bb0807140527i673d6012jbcc5b6548d21b849@mail.gmail.com> <5af37bb0807140529g1ed76619p17da8c986382e96e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0807150249r568a9515w223d30aa4c6834ac@mail.gmail.com> the original story http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/10/in-an-iranian-image-a-missile-too-many/index.html?hp and the after-geometry http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/07/attack-of-the-p.html From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Tue Jul 15 15:32:39 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:02:39 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <157161.55226.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <157161.55226.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: How was it that australian PM seen by citizens of that nation before being voted out after the body bags started coming in from Iraq. ? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 1:47 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear Radhikarajen >   > Do I "want the one billion citizens see their PM as lapdog of > American president.?" ? >   > No I do not. >   > Again, you are not only missing the point but seem to not know > well the issues that you are talking about. >   > Let me repeat - Going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand- > alone issues and not connected with or to be clubbed with any > "deal with the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA and NSG, they > are to be thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National > Interest". >   > Your other point now. Yes "by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear > apartheid will come > to an end" to a large degree. It will defenitely be much better > for India. There is no 'feel' factor or 'speculation' in that > contention. It is factual. >   > In case you are tempted to refer to it, that there is hypocrisy in > the 'nuclearisation ethics' of the 'nuclear' countries is also > well known and accepted as fact. >   > It might (or might not be) pertinent to mention here that Vajpayee > publicly declared that India was willing to join the CTBT regime > without (there is no evidence to the contrary) the "nuclear > apartheid" ending in totality. In many ways that was acceptance of > and submission to not only the 'nuclear apartheid' but also the > hypocrisy  in the 'nuclearisation ethics' of the 'nuclear' > countries. >   > Kshmendra > > > --- On Tue, 7/15/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net > wrote: > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 12:35 PM > > Kshemendra, > > lecturing is not debating or exchane of views, we have been > exchanging our > thoughts, if you fell for lecturing it is your choice, not mine. > > Tell me, please , by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear > apartheid will come > to an end, is the feel and speculation, but at what cost. ? Do you > want the one > billion citizens see their PM as lapdog of American president.? > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:52 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Dear Radhikarajen > >   > > You are lecturing me on everything else but not addressing the > > simpler issues that would put things in perspective with regards > > to approaches to IAEA and subsequently the NSG. > >   > > I repeat, going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand- > alone > > issues and not connected with or to be clubbed with any "deal > with > > the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA and NSG, they are to be > > thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National Interest". > >   > > The (relative) HONESTY or DISHONESTY of Manmohan Singh is also > > inconsequential to the much more important issue of negotiations > > with IAEA and NSG being satisfactorily concluded. > >   > > Kshmendra > >   > >   > > > > > > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > wrote: > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 4:05 PM > > > > Kshemendra, > > > > yes, questions have questions in them, agreeable thoughts, how > > is it that > > these questions of nuclear deal were shrouded in darkness of > > classified lines > > for well over two years keeping the citizens in dark. ? > > > > Why suddenly now advertisements in media about the good deal > that > > our Mr. > > Honest is keen about the deal. ? > > > > What prevented Mr. Honest to have a honest discussion of the > > deal in media > > and parliament instead of blanket answers that the deal is good, > > is in the > > national interest.? > > > > In any democracy, the classified documents are put to open > > domain after a > > period of certain number of years. they are de-classified for > the > > citizens to > > know about the ommissions and commissions of the decision making > > process in > > democratic rule of that nation. India is perhaps one of the very > > few democratic > > countries which has not de-classified its classified documents > > till date even > > after being a free nation. > > > > In such a situation, the policy makers, the executors of the > > policies and > > the citizens who have a right to know the procedure of rule of > > laws are > > manipulating the records to suit their selfish interests, ? > > > > Even in UK and USA the documents are classified once they are > > archived after > > thirty years, that is documents upto 1978 are declassified that, > > the citizens > > know the misadventure or the good acts of babus, politicians and > > all. Such is > > the power of the citizens, that future babus and politicians > will > > be well > > informed of the mistakes of the past. > > > > Do we have this in place. ? > > > > Regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 2:25 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > =3E > > > Dear Radhikarajen > > >   > > > Questions have a questioning in them so they cannot be > Utopian. > > If > > > my answers sounded Utopian to you, then I would disagree with > > you > > > that they are so. > > >   > > > You seemed to have missed the point (completely) in my > questions > > > and my answers: > > >   > > > 1. Going through the IAEA and NSG routines does not in any way > > > whatsoever mean that you have entered into the (legally > > > enforceable) deal with the USA. Do you disagree? > > >   > > > 2. Successfully going through the IAEA and NSG routines leaves > > > India better placed to enter into a deal or deals with any > > country > > > of (nuclear) interest, an access which is currently blocked. > USA > > > need not be one such country that India "deals' with. Do > you > > disagree? > > >   > > > Whether USA is an 'angelic' entity or a 'satanic' one > does > > not > > > come into the picture. > > >   > > >   > > > Kshmendra > > >   > > > > > > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > > > wrote: > > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 12:38 PM > > > > > > Kshemendra, > > > > > > your questions are basically utopian and answers given by you > > > are only > > > theoratical and not practical, after the citizens of the world > > > have seen how if > > > you are with America, you have to be ready to recieve body > bags > > > for the > > > misadventure of America for its leaders folly in Afghanistan > > and > > > Iraq.Australian PM Howard was seen by his citizens as lapdog > of > > > Bush, do you need a > > > hairy happy lapdog of our PM on the lap of american president.? > > > > > > Regards. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:07 pm > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > Dear PK > > > >   > > > > "Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the > > Imperialism." > > > > That sounds very very very "holier than thou" and > pompous. > > > >   > > > > Questions for you: > > > >   > > > > 1. Does IAEA Agreement automatically place India in your > > feared > > > > "unholy matrimomy" (my words) with the USA? My answer > is > > NO. > > > What > > > > is yours? > > > >   > > > > 2. Does successful negotiation with the NSG automatically > > place > > > > India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" with the USA? > My > > answer > > > is > > > > NO. What is yours? > > > >   > > > > 3. Let us imagine that there is no USA, wouldn't India still > > > > have > > > > to go the IAEA and NSG route if it wants to freed of current > > > > (nuclear) restrictions on it? My answer is YES. What is yours? > > > >   > > > > 4. Does help received from the USA with the IAEA and NSG > place > > > > India under any Legal obligation to (nuclear) deal > thereafter > > > only > > > > or primarily with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours?  > > > >   > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 7/12/08, prakash ray > wrote: > > > > > > > > From: prakash ray > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 8:52 PM > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' > ones > > (read > > > > Shuddha, > > > > Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the > > current > > > > debate over > > > > the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, > have > > > > 'always'attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do > not > > > want > > > > to blame them for > > > > their political positions, but I would accuse them for their > > > > shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive > > > > contribution or > > > > position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves > > 'liberated' > > > since > > > > we > > > > write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that > > our > > > > 'falsesense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our > > handsome > > > > salaries and > > > > convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that > a > > > > sin. However, > > > > I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' > > approach. > > > > > > > > Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not > > > > articulate their > > > > position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear > sacredness. > > > > Their belief > > > > of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based > > on > > > a > > > > reportappeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that > they > > > > believe what the > > > > TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or > > > economic > > > > policiesetc. Shivam could have researched on the matter > since > > he > > > > is a reporter > > > > himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support > > > extended > > > > by the > > > > Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting > > > > interviewed in > > > > the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every > > > > newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes > > interviews > > > > of the > > > > politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of > the > > > > Salwa Judum > > > > infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at > > regular > > > > intervention > > > > and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R > > > > Narayanan on > > > > the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in > place > > of the > > > > customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, > the > > > > right-wingers > > > > get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about > the > > > moderator > > > > or > > > > Shuddha himself? > > > > > > > > I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to > the > > US > > > > administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and > > > > continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I > do > > > not > > > > find any > > > > fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact > > > that > > > > the US and > > > > Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do > > not > > > > think the > > > > readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault > if > > > > someone sees > > > > the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I > > > consider the > > > > nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on > > the > > > > poor and > > > > less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation > > > > against the > > > > policies and politics of the US. > > > > > > > > Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. > > > > > > > > Let me ask some simple questions: > > > > > > > > Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the > > Congress?> > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr > Singh > > could go > > > > ahead with > > > > the Deal? > > > > Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit > > in > > > > elections if > > > > the Govt falls? > > > > Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left > oppose > > or > > > > supporteverything only on the basis of the position taken by > > the > > > BJP?> Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology > of > > > the > > > > 'clash of > > > > civilizations'? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Prakash > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with > > > > subscribe in > > > > the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From pkray11 at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 15:41:11 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:41:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <98f331e00807150310g45b7ccc4h618177111b9fb67f@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00807120822j284b62c3u21fa8b74e148e6e5@mail.gmail.com> <89CE0333-0DC1-45C3-BB4B-0CB0D60D416E@sarai.net> <98f331e00807150306vd24cc1eve7c37ce6acc62245@mail.gmail.com> <98f331e00807150310g45b7ccc4h618177111b9fb67f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <98f331e00807150311m77f8a9e3ib3ad52fe9c3ac01d@mail.gmail.com> On 7/15/08, prakash ray wrote: > > Dear Shuddha, > > Nice to see your studied response. I retract from the argument that whoever > is criticizing the CPI (M) cannot be on the Left. Your point regarding this > is well taken. However, you would also agree that one can legitimately use > the Left in mainstream Indian politics to mean the CPI (M) and other Left > Parties (CPI, RSP, Forward Bloc). > > Your criticism of the Left Parties is both factually incorrect and > politically untenable. > > The Left Parties have not based their criticisms of the nuclear deal on the > grounds of furthering Indian nuclear weaponisation. Rather they have always > emphasised on the subversion of India's independent foreign policy, which > have already been borne out through the two votes against Iran by India at > the IAEA Board of Governors even before the Hyde Act was passed in the US > Congress. Today when the US and Israel are threatening to attack Iran, the > critique of the Left Parties look so pertinent. > > It is true that the Left Parties are also opposed to the infringement on > India's strategic autonomy - but that is not because they support nuclear > weaponisation but because they are for universal nuclear disarmament. > Confused persons want India to sign the NPT and CTBT, which will permanently > legitimise the nuclear haves status of the P5 (US, Russia, UK, France and > China) and nuclear have nots status for the rest. That'll be the end of the > struggle for universal disarmament. The Left Parties have consistently > opposed signing of NPT and CTBT while the BJP had secretly agreed to sign > CTBT during the clandestine talks between Jaswant Singh and Tallbot as > revealed in Tallbot's book. How come your position, which you claim to be > opposed to the Left's "nationalist" position, dovetails with the position of > the "ultra-nationalist" and communal-fascist BJP? > > I'm attaching a booklet which gives the Left Parties position on the > nuclear deal in some detail. Also see the two links below for a rejoinder to > an EPW Editorial written by my old friend from JNU Prasenjit from CPI (M) > Research Unit responding to similar criticism which you have made of the > Left Parties: http://www.pragoti.org/node/251 > > You can also see Com. Sitaram's speech in the Rajya Sabha on the nuclear > deal which criticises Manmohan Singh for abandoning the Rajiv Gandhi action > plan on disarmament in pursuing the Indo-US Nuclear Deal: > http://www.pragoti.org/node/405 > > You are welcome to criticise the CPI (M) and the Left. But do it on the > basis of facts and reason, not malice and prejudice. They have shown on the > nuclear deal that they have the intellectual resources to match the ruling > classes. At least try to respect that. > > Regards, > > Prakash > > > Prakash > > On 7/13/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> Dear Prakash, >> >> >> Thank you for your mail. >> >> >> I fail to realize how an argument against the myopia of the CPI(M) and the >> CPI have to be automatically read as 'anti-left' arguments. The only reason >> why anyone gives credence to the idea that the CPI or the CPI(M) represent >> in any way, the 'Left', is because, well, they say so themselves. It is not >> unlike the BJP declaring that it's ideology is 'Gandhian Socialism' (which >> it says it is). I have no quarrel with these acts of self naming (however >> delusionary they may be, provided that those who name themselves thus do not >> arrogate to themselves the right to control the naming of all others). If >> the CPI(M) thinks that it is the Left, it is welcome to that assumption, but >> I cannot understand how this gives CPI(M) activists and sympathizers the >> right to decide that any criticism of the CPI(M) and/or its allies >> automatically amounts to a criticism of the Left. Actually, it amounts to >> nothing other than a criticism of the CPI(M) and/or its allies. The Left is >> not a term that can either be invoked or and exhausted by the CPI(M)'s >> episodic lapses. >> >> >> I have said this before. I consider myself to be on the left, and I have >> never for a moment doubted that whenever, either the kind of thinking that I >> represent, or the kind of thinking that anyone else on the left represents >> is in error, it should be criticised. That act of criticism is not, and >> should not be vulgarized as 'anti-left' thinking merely because it happens >> to be directed at organizations, individuals or entities that describe >> themselves as being on the 'left'. If you criticise me, I can fault you on >> many grounds that have to do with either the intent or manner of your >> criticism, but to criticise your criticism of my thoughts on the grounds of >> 'Anti-Leftism' would be just as absurd as your attempt to debunk my >> criticism of the CPI(M) on the grounds of 'Anti-Leftism'. I hope I have made >> myself clear. Please be sharper and more coherent when you are being >> critical. It will improve the grounds of our debate. >> >> >> I do not recognize or understand who is being pointed towards in the >> description "some of us who consider ourselves 'liberated', since we write, >> read or lecture, and we only do that'. Who is this 'us'. I have to do many >> things other than write, read and lecture, and I do wish I had a handsome >> salary. Can you (Prakash) arrange one for me. Even if that were to be the >> case, the criticism of an argument on the basis of the salary of the bearer, >> or professional pre-occupations of the protagonist of an argument is >> actually not an argument. I could criticise several well known activists of >> the CPI(M) on the basis of their salaries, or of the fact that they are part >> of the academic establishment, or on the choice of their after dinner >> pre-occupations, or their good or bad taste in Whisky, but I abstain from >> doing so, because I think that bringing such things into an argument about >> political choices is not only in bad taste (which it is) but is also totally >> irrelevant. >> >> >> I do not see a rigorous position against a nuclear military policy on the >> part of the Government of India as the mouthing of a "anti- everything >> nuclear sacredness". it is not anti-everything, it is simply, anti-nuclear >> weapons. Since when are nuclear weapons - "everything"? Or, are they >> "everything" these days in the CPI(M)? And what is "sacred" in questioning a >> nuclear weapons policy?It seems, on the contrary, to me, that a deliberate >> reticence about the desirability of a nuclear weapons programme that the >> CPI(M) and several others so called 'Left' such as the CPI are currently >> exhibiting, (while blustering about 'strategic autonomy' ) is more >> symptomatic of their anxiety that the sacredness of a nuclear weapons policy >> remain pristine and untouched, than it is of anything else. I really wonder >> who can be correctly described as being 'holier than thou' here. Or am I >> really missing something? is it just that the that the nuclear policy >> automatically becomes sacrosant, the very moment when the gentlemen and >> ladies on the so called 'Left' rush to protect our nuclear assets and >> associated sacred secrets from the International Atomic Energy Agency ? >> >> >> I have never, at any point, said that I support the Indo-US nuclear deal. >> I have infact been writing about the Indo-US nuclear deal for the past >> several months on this list, and there has not been a single posting where I >> have ever said that such a deal should be signed, or that I support the >> signing of such a deal. I have only maintained that the grounds on which the >> CPI(M) and the CPI are attacking the deal are hollow, since they are based >> on the argument of 'strategic autonomy' which can only translate as a >> continuing commitment to a pro 'Nuclear Weapons' policy vis a vis India. >> This means that the presence of these very Left leaders in demonstrations >> against the Nuclear Tests that were part of Pokrhan II were exercises in >> hypocrisy and subterfuge. There is no doubt at all in my mind that at this >> moment, there is a perfect synchronicity between the positions of the BJP >> and the CPI(M) on this issue. If the CPI(M) had urged the UPA government to >> sign the NPT and the CTBT and to give up the obscenity of the Indian nuclear >> weapons programme, or even opposed it militantly, I would have been able to >> see the difference between the BJP and the CPI(M) positions on this matter. >> Since this is not the case, I fail to see where the difference lies. >> >> >> I find it pathetic when those who have the audacity to call themselves >> Communist should support a nation-state's right to posess and deploy nuclear >> weapons and other weapons of mass destruction. It is in fact a measure of >> the idiocy and sad state of political bankruptcy of these so called >> Communist parties. They, and their cadres, and their time serving >> sympathizers have forgotten, or they have chosen to ignore that the >> difference between Communists and Social Democracy lay in its origin, >> precisely on the matter of supporting or opposing the belligerence of nation >> states during and in the wake of the first world war. By voting to protect >> the Indian nation state's nuclear arsenal, (even if this is done in the name >> of opposing US Imperialism) the CPI(M) and the CPI and their client parties >> in the Indian parliament have behaved in a manner identical to those Social >> Democrats, who during the first world war, voted in favour of 'War Credits' >> to their respective bourgeouise governments (in the name of opposing French, >> or German, or Czarist Russian, or British Imperialism). They have, by >> placing their nation state over and above the class interests of the >> labouring people of the world, crossed over to the camp of the enemy. They >> have become, in other words, parties of reaction. And it should come as no >> surprise to anyone that they will vote in co-ordination with the far right. >> This is only a sign of things to come. >> >> >> Patriotism, is and remains, the last refuge of scoundrels, everywhere. >> >> >> regards. >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> -- Prakash K Ray 225, Sutlej, JNU, New Delhi-110067. cinemela.blogspot.com (0) 9873313315 From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 18:42:56 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 06:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] two strange stories about women in india In-Reply-To: <487C7FF2.3020309@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <446396.7670.qm@web51406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> This may not be the last cynical play of the western capitalism - skin whitening may have existed since times immemorial. You may see an interesting collage of beauty ads from 1940s/50s in the following presentation: http://tasveerghar.net/2007/javed/ --- On Tue, 7/15/08, Rob van Kranenburg wrote: > From: Rob van Kranenburg > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] two strange stories about women in india > To: "Noora Zul" > Cc: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 4:16 PM > Dear Yousuf and dear Noora, > > Yes tanning is very much in here! And I'm not quite > addicted myself, but > getting there. I need my vitamin D. > > But somehow I think that there is a difference between > sunbathing and > using cream to avoid sunburn and assuming that a whitening > cream that is > quite chemical would be so important to who you are that it > is the very > colonial basis of exclusion or inclusion that you reproduce > in a day and > age where the BRIC ( Brazil, India , China, Russia, > Indonesia) countries > are growing in all directions and the whole world is > witnessing the > economic and moral collapse of the West. It is almost as if > this is a > kind of last cynical play of western capitalism played out > on the most > vulnerable at this moment, woman and on her skin, the most > visible part, > saying i don't need to brand you, you will do that > yourself. > > It seems to break gender boundraries too: > guys too: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWls3U7ZZ1E&feature=related > > although the majority is targeted at women. > > I'm in Singapore from july 22 to 26, as artistic > advisor to this meeting > > http://www.asef.org/index.php?option=com_project&task=view&id=21 > > and we have a Pecha Kucha style evening with about 30 > presenters ( ISEA > artists, theorists, researchers) on the 24th, you are very > welcome! > > Greetings, Rob > > > ps. I've taking of the reader list cc as i don't > see your messages > appearing on the list > > > Noora Zul schreef: > > Dear Yousuf & Rob > > > > I couldn't resist adding this. I'm actually > from Singapore, and Malay > > in terms of ethnicity (in terms of skin colour, we > tend towards being > > brown). The skin-whitening ad 'phenomenon' > also exists here, and > > similarly in Malaysia and Indonesia (which is more > preponderantly > > Malay peoples). And it does seem to break racial > boundaries, because > > there are ads too targeting at the Chinese women. It > is quite an > > obsession, with products ranging from specific > whitening creams to > > things like compacts boasting additional whitening > properties. There > > is (strangely) the ambition to be fair in an extremely > sunny tropical > > region, where getting a tan is more easily achieved. > This was kinda > > sharpened for me when I noticed that when I was living > in London, it > > seemed that tanning products were more of 'the > rage'. > > > > Noora > > > > On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:48 PM, Yousuf > > > wrote: > > > > Dear Rob > > I posted your last link about the skin-whitening > adverts to some > > friends on facebook, and it seems to be leading to > an interesting > > debate there, especially the fact that the > skin-whitening is not > > only an Indian phenomena - strange tendencies are > still emerging > > about the colour of the skin even outside India... > > > > > http://www.facebook.com/inbox/readmessage.php?t=1004356748350 > > > > I guess you'll need to log in to facebook with > an ID to see this. > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 7/13/08, Rob van Kranenburg > > > wrote: > > > > > From: Rob van Kranenburg > > > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] two strange stories > about women in india > > > To: > > > Cc: "sarai list" > > > > > > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 9:00 PM > > > hi, > > > > > > i can not make sense of it, but maybe someone > can: > > > > > > two strange stories about women in india: > > > > > > one on the ratio male - female > > > > > > > http://www.actionaid.org.uk/doc_lib/disappearing_daughters_0608.pdf > > > > http://www.punjabnewsline.com/content/view/10896/93/ > > > http://actionaidindia.org/camp_violence.htm > > > > > > and one very scary ad: > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKEF-8XkWMU > > > > > > > > > http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/skinwhitening-adverts-ignite-race-row-in-india-863936.html > > > > > > greetings, rob > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media > and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > subscribe in the subject > > > header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > subscribe in the > > subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > From tapasrayx at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 18:47:19 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:17:19 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <32144e990807140821o3835af66ye51f855ff5f26782@mail.gmail.com> References: <699277.55914.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <32144e990807140821o3835af66ye51f855ff5f26782@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <487CA35F.20700@gmail.com> Partha, Although you were writing in response to Kshemendra's reply to Radhikarajen, I hope you won't mind if I butt in, because your post is on an issue I wrote about yesterday, and also earlier. Your question is straightforward, but I am afraid the answer cannot be simple or straightforward, and any solution to the problem cannot be a quick one. Not simple because it lies outside the framework within which your question has meaning. Not quick, because adopting a new framework is not something the world can do quickly. The situation we see today has not developed in a year or a decade. The way of thinking that has led to it, has matured over centuries. So, it wouldn't be reasonable to expect a solution that would work in a couple of years or a decade. The framework I am talking about is the "technological civilization" of the modern world. "Technological" here is broader than what we usually mean by technological, which is something that has to do with the practical application of scientific knowledge. Here it means a civilization of fixes. This is how it works. You encounter problem A, and you find a solution. You come up against another problem. So you find another fix. So on, ad infinitum. Your response to problems B, C, D, etc., go the same way. The problems are treated as discrete, and the solutions you look for are discrete. You may find links between C and D, and work out a solution that take care of both, but your overall approach is the above. Take an example. Air pollution is too bad in Delhi. So they got autorickshaws, taxis and buses to switch from diesel to LNG, and autos from two-stroke to four-stroke engines. Then researchers saw that pollutants A and B went down, but C and D went up. So the government has to look for another fix. Then a fix for the unintended consequences of that second fix, etc. At the same time, you notice that the ever-growing number of vehicles is canceling out your gains from all these fixes. So you switch to electric. Then you notice you need huge amounts of electricity to charge all those batteries. But oil, coal, hydel, etc. are scarce resources. You turn to nuclear power, which is fundamentally, by its very nature, an unsafe technology. You devise safety measures. Then, when you face new problems that you hadn't foreseen, you find more solutions. One cannot blame the technologists, because nobody can anticipate every new type of problem that may arise, or even every kind of failure your safety mechanisms may be susceptible to. In the meantime, the demand for power hasn't remained constant. You need more and more nuclear plants until other technologies, such as hydrogen, wind, and solar become economically viable on the scale we are talking about. That could take a long time. Even if it doesn't, once those are used on the scale we need, maybe earlier, you may find problems that you had not, or could not have anticipated. Etc. To find an answer to your question that goes beyond a fix-to-fix existence, we need to come out of this way of thinking, and adopt a new way, in which energy shortage would not be the problem. It is the way we think about comfort, necessity, etc. That would be the "problem" we need to "solve". If we had continued to beat the heat in the way our ancestors had learned to do from thousands of years of living in hot climates, we would have seen our relationship to the weather in a different way. Hot weather would not be a problem to be fixed or an enemy to be conquered with airconditioners, but something to be lived with as a normal part of life, and to accommodate ourselves within. That would not be difficult: over hundreds of thousands of years of evolution (from apes and earlier), the human body has constantly adapted itself to its habitat - even in extreme climates like the Sahara and the Arctic region. But by changing its habitat in fundamental ways over the last few centuries, it has interrupted that adaptive process and turned it in a new direction, away from harmony with our natural habitat. On the evolutionary time scale, this has happened what would probably be a few minutes ago or less on our human time scale. So it is not too late to turn back. As for the ways of keeping cool that people have learned over thousands of years, one is the simple way of the ancient Roman civilization. They would keep their windows closed during the day and open them wide in the evening. I have personally seen that it's very effective. But then, partly out of necessity, I live with heat, not eliminate it - a better word would be expel - from my life. And the Roman method is not the only one. Other methods have evolved in different regions and continents. Those are being used, as we speak, by the vast majority of the global population, which cannot afford airconditioners. If we were to start thinking in this way - I mean, look at our relationship with nature not as a matter of conquest or problem solving but as a matter of integration and harmony - the energy crunch would be a thing of the past. What I have said so far is nothing new, and many people have been thinking this way for a long time. But it's not individuals who count for such a fundamental change. It's the entire human civilization. Obviously, this cannot happen in a matter of years. Even if every human being were to start today, it would still take decades, maybe a century or more, to change the direction, given the momentum human civilization as a whole has picked up over centuries. But we need to start the process now, because every day lost is one more day in the wrong direction and a little more momentum in that direction. In practical terms, the immediate thing to do is to contain and then reduce levels of consumption, and at the same time bring about some kind of redistributive justice so that the poor, who have to live in harsh conditions, can get some degree of comfort. Apart from the moral and ethical side, this also has a practical side. If the poor do not see an improvement in their standard of living, which comes to at least some of them through the trickle-down effect, they will say, logically enough, that the new direction is not acceptable because it prevents them from even aspiring to even a small fraction of the comforts the rich have been enjoying for quite a while. That is what India and China have been saying when rich countries press for an across-the-board limit in greenhouse gas emissions. I know this is not a complete answer and there are many complexities of the issue that I haven't touched upon. I wish I could write more, but I really cannot spend more time over this. Maybe later. Tapas parthaekka at gmail.com wrote: > Hi, > > I think we forgot to look at another issue as well. > > With the growing requirement for power generation which is well below > par as well as the fact that the hydro power generation is facing > issues of lessened water flow, and solar and wind powered generation > not viable for a large volume, what are the alternatives India has to > generate power for a growing population - given the fact that we do > not have enough power for current requirement. > > With oil prices going the way they are, oil based generation does not > seem a sensible route either, as doesn't coal - both non sustainable > in any case. > > Doesn't seem to be much of an alternative barring the nuclear power route. > > Rgds, Partha > .............................................. > > On 7/14/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >> Dear Radhikarajen >> >> You are lecturing me on everything else but not addressing the simpler >> issues that would put things in perspective with regards to approaches to >> IAEA and subsequently the NSG. >> >> I repeat, going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand-alone issues and >> not connected with or to be clubbed with any "deal with the USA". If the USA >> helps us with IAEA and NSG, they are to be thanked. Thankfulness is not sale >> of "National Interest". >> >> The (relative) HONESTY or DISHONESTY of Manmohan Singh is also >> inconsequential to the much more important issue of negotiations with IAEA >> and NSG being satisfactorily concluded. >> >> Kshmendra >> From kranenbu at xs4all.nl Tue Jul 15 19:02:59 2008 From: kranenbu at xs4all.nl (Rob van Kranenburg) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:32:59 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] two strange stories about women in india In-Reply-To: <446396.7670.qm@web51406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <446396.7670.qm@web51406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <487CA70B.3090902@xs4all.nl> Indeed, surely this must be a time to end all this nonsense and simply stop buying these things that make other people rich and prey on the insecurities that we all have at one point or another, Rob Yousuf schreef: > This may not be the last cynical play of the western capitalism - skin whitening may have existed since times immemorial. You may see an interesting collage of beauty ads from 1940s/50s in the following presentation: > > http://tasveerghar.net/2007/javed/ > > > > > --- On Tue, 7/15/08, Rob van Kranenburg wrote: > > >> From: Rob van Kranenburg >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] two strange stories about women in india >> To: "Noora Zul" >> Cc: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com >> Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 4:16 PM >> Dear Yousuf and dear Noora, >> >> Yes tanning is very much in here! And I'm not quite >> addicted myself, but >> getting there. I need my vitamin D. >> >> But somehow I think that there is a difference between >> sunbathing and >> using cream to avoid sunburn and assuming that a whitening >> cream that is >> quite chemical would be so important to who you are that it >> is the very >> colonial basis of exclusion or inclusion that you reproduce >> in a day and >> age where the BRIC ( Brazil, India , China, Russia, >> Indonesia) countries >> are growing in all directions and the whole world is >> witnessing the >> economic and moral collapse of the West. It is almost as if >> this is a >> kind of last cynical play of western capitalism played out >> on the most >> vulnerable at this moment, woman and on her skin, the most >> visible part, >> saying i don't need to brand you, you will do that >> yourself. >> >> It seems to break gender boundraries too: >> guys too: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWls3U7ZZ1E&feature=related >> >> although the majority is targeted at women. >> >> I'm in Singapore from july 22 to 26, as artistic >> advisor to this meeting >> >> http://www.asef.org/index.php?option=com_project&task=view&id=21 >> >> and we have a Pecha Kucha style evening with about 30 >> presenters ( ISEA >> artists, theorists, researchers) on the 24th, you are very >> welcome! >> >> Greetings, Rob >> >> >> ps. I've taking of the reader list cc as i don't >> see your messages >> appearing on the list >> >> >> Noora Zul schreef: >> >>> Dear Yousuf & Rob >>> >>> I couldn't resist adding this. I'm actually >>> >> from Singapore, and Malay >> >>> in terms of ethnicity (in terms of skin colour, we >>> >> tend towards being >> >>> brown). The skin-whitening ad 'phenomenon' >>> >> also exists here, and >> >>> similarly in Malaysia and Indonesia (which is more >>> >> preponderantly >> >>> Malay peoples). And it does seem to break racial >>> >> boundaries, because >> >>> there are ads too targeting at the Chinese women. It >>> >> is quite an >> >>> obsession, with products ranging from specific >>> >> whitening creams to >> >>> things like compacts boasting additional whitening >>> >> properties. There >> >>> is (strangely) the ambition to be fair in an extremely >>> >> sunny tropical >> >>> region, where getting a tan is more easily achieved. >>> >> This was kinda >> >>> sharpened for me when I noticed that when I was living >>> >> in London, it >> >>> seemed that tanning products were more of 'the >>> >> rage'. >> >>> Noora >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:48 PM, Yousuf >>> >> > >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Dear Rob >>> I posted your last link about the skin-whitening >>> >> adverts to some >> >>> friends on facebook, and it seems to be leading to >>> >> an interesting >> >>> debate there, especially the fact that the >>> >> skin-whitening is not >> >>> only an Indian phenomena - strange tendencies are >>> >> still emerging >> >>> about the colour of the skin even outside India... >>> >>> >>> >> http://www.facebook.com/inbox/readmessage.php?t=1004356748350 >> >>> I guess you'll need to log in to facebook with >>> >> an ID to see this. >> >>> Yousuf >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- On Sun, 7/13/08, Rob van Kranenburg >>> >> > >>> > wrote: >>> >>> > From: Rob van Kranenburg >>> >> > >>> > >>> > Subject: [Reader-list] two strange stories >>> >> about women in india >> >>> > To: >>> > Cc: "sarai list" >>> >> > >>> > >>> > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 9:00 PM >>> > hi, >>> > >>> > i can not make sense of it, but maybe someone >>> >> can: >> >>> > >>> > two strange stories about women in india: >>> > >>> > one on the ratio male - female >>> > >>> > >>> >> http://www.actionaid.org.uk/doc_lib/disappearing_daughters_0608.pdf >> >>> > >>> >> http://www.punjabnewsline.com/content/view/10896/93/ >> >>> > http://actionaidindia.org/camp_violence.htm >>> > >>> > and one very scary ad: >>> > >>> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKEF-8XkWMU >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/skinwhitening-adverts-ignite-race-row-in-india-863936.html >> >>> > >>> > greetings, rob >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media >>> >> and the city. >> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to >>> > reader-list-request at sarai.net >>> with >>> >> subscribe in the subject >> >>> > header. >>> > To unsubscribe: >>> > >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> > List archive: >>> > >>> >> >> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and >>> >> the city. >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to >>> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net >> >>> with >>> >> subscribe in the >> >>> subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> List archive: >>> >> >> >>> > > > > > > From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 19:20:00 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 06:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] two strange stories about women in india In-Reply-To: <487CA70B.3090902@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <368531.6713.qm@web51405.mail.re2.yahoo.com> ...stop buying these creams? That will collapse the empire of satellite TV channels, glossy magazines and the rest. Who will allow that to happen. They are putting cameras in people's drawing rooms to survey when the family watches TV most, so that more expensive airtime could be sold for that time. In Indian family soap operas when a woman wakes up in her bed, she already has lipstick, cream and full make-up on her face. --- On Tue, 7/15/08, Rob van Kranenburg wrote: > From: Rob van Kranenburg > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] two strange stories about women in india > To: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > Cc: "Noora Zul" , "sarai list" > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 7:02 PM > Indeed, surely this must be a time to end all this nonsense > and simply > stop buying these things that make other people rich and > prey on the > insecurities that we all have at one point or another, Rob > > Yousuf schreef: > > This may not be the last cynical play of the western > capitalism - skin whitening may have existed since times > immemorial. You may see an interesting collage of beauty > ads from 1940s/50s in the following presentation: > > > > http://tasveerghar.net/2007/javed/ > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 7/15/08, Rob van Kranenburg > wrote: > > > > > >> From: Rob van Kranenburg > > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] two strange stories > about women in india > >> To: "Noora Zul" > > >> Cc: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > >> Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 4:16 PM > >> Dear Yousuf and dear Noora, > >> > >> Yes tanning is very much in here! And I'm not > quite > >> addicted myself, but > >> getting there. I need my vitamin D. > >> > >> But somehow I think that there is a difference > between > >> sunbathing and > >> using cream to avoid sunburn and assuming that a > whitening > >> cream that is > >> quite chemical would be so important to who you > are that it > >> is the very > >> colonial basis of exclusion or inclusion that you > reproduce > >> in a day and > >> age where the BRIC ( Brazil, India , China, > Russia, > >> Indonesia) countries > >> are growing in all directions and the whole world > is > >> witnessing the > >> economic and moral collapse of the West. It is > almost as if > >> this is a > >> kind of last cynical play of western capitalism > played out > >> on the most > >> vulnerable at this moment, woman and on her skin, > the most > >> visible part, > >> saying i don't need to brand you, you will do > that > >> yourself. > >> > >> It seems to break gender boundraries too: > >> guys too: > >> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWls3U7ZZ1E&feature=related > >> > >> although the majority is targeted at women. > >> > >> I'm in Singapore from july 22 to 26, as > artistic > >> advisor to this meeting > >> > >> > http://www.asef.org/index.php?option=com_project&task=view&id=21 > >> > >> and we have a Pecha Kucha style evening with about > 30 > >> presenters ( ISEA > >> artists, theorists, researchers) on the 24th, you > are very > >> welcome! > >> > >> Greetings, Rob > >> > >> > >> ps. I've taking of the reader list cc as i > don't > >> see your messages > >> appearing on the list > >> > >> > >> Noora Zul schreef: > >> > >>> Dear Yousuf & Rob > >>> > >>> I couldn't resist adding this. I'm > actually > >>> > >> from Singapore, and Malay > >> > >>> in terms of ethnicity (in terms of skin > colour, we > >>> > >> tend towards being > >> > >>> brown). The skin-whitening ad > 'phenomenon' > >>> > >> also exists here, and > >> > >>> similarly in Malaysia and Indonesia (which is > more > >>> > >> preponderantly > >> > >>> Malay peoples). And it does seem to break > racial > >>> > >> boundaries, because > >> > >>> there are ads too targeting at the Chinese > women. It > >>> > >> is quite an > >> > >>> obsession, with products ranging from specific > >>> > >> whitening creams to > >> > >>> things like compacts boasting additional > whitening > >>> > >> properties. There > >> > >>> is (strangely) the ambition to be fair in an > extremely > >>> > >> sunny tropical > >> > >>> region, where getting a tan is more easily > achieved. > >>> > >> This was kinda > >> > >>> sharpened for me when I noticed that when I > was living > >>> > >> in London, it > >> > >>> seemed that tanning products were more of > 'the > >>> > >> rage'. > >> > >>> Noora > >>> > >>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:48 PM, Yousuf > >>> > >> >> > >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>> Dear Rob > >>> I posted your last link about the > skin-whitening > >>> > >> adverts to some > >> > >>> friends on facebook, and it seems to be > leading to > >>> > >> an interesting > >> > >>> debate there, especially the fact that the > >>> > >> skin-whitening is not > >> > >>> only an Indian phenomena - strange > tendencies are > >>> > >> still emerging > >> > >>> about the colour of the skin even outside > India... > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > http://www.facebook.com/inbox/readmessage.php?t=1004356748350 > >> > >>> I guess you'll need to log in to > facebook with > >>> > >> an ID to see this. > >> > >>> Yousuf > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> --- On Sun, 7/13/08, Rob van Kranenburg > >>> > >> >> > >>> > > wrote: > >>> > >>> > From: Rob van Kranenburg > >>> > >> >> > >>> > > >>> > Subject: [Reader-list] two strange > stories > >>> > >> about women in india > >> > >>> > To: > >>> > Cc: "sarai list" > >>> > >> >> > >>> > > >>> > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 9:00 PM > >>> > hi, > >>> > > >>> > i can not make sense of it, but maybe > someone > >>> > >> can: > >> > >>> > > >>> > two strange stories about women in > india: > >>> > > >>> > one on the ratio male - female > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >> > http://www.actionaid.org.uk/doc_lib/disappearing_daughters_0608.pdf > >> > >>> > > >>> > >> > http://www.punjabnewsline.com/content/view/10896/93/ > >> > >>> > > http://actionaidindia.org/camp_violence.htm > >>> > > >>> > and one very scary ad: > >>> > > >>> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKEF-8XkWMU > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >> > http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/skinwhitening-adverts-ignite-race-row-in-india-863936.html > >> > >>> > > >>> > greetings, rob > >>> > > _________________________________________ > >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list > on media > >>> > >> and the city. > >> > >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to > >>> > reader-list-request at sarai.net > >>> > with > >>> > >> subscribe in the subject > >> > >>> > header. > >>> > To unsubscribe: > >>> > > >>> > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >>> > List archive: > >>> > > >>> > >> > > >> > >>> > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and > >>> > >> the city. > >> > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to > >>> > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> > >>> > with > >>> > >> subscribe in the > >> > >>> subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: > >>> > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >>> List archive: > >>> > >> > > >> > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 19:27:11 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:27:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] In Kashmir, no land for Hindus - A. Surya Prakash Message-ID: <6353c690807150657h4d13847fp46fbe8e4b9e9f3d8@mail.gmail.com> *In Kashmir, no land for Hindus* *A Surya Prakash* Giving in to Muslim communalists and protesters who indulged in violence across the Kashmir Valley, the Congress-led Government in Jammu & Kashmir hastily withdrew the allotment of 100 acres of land made to the Sri Amarnath Shrine Board to provide basic amenities to Hindu pilgrims along the Amarnath Yatra route. The attitude of the Muslim majority to the Hindu minority in the Valley and the response of the Government in India's only Muslim-majority State to the issue of minority rights is in sharp contrast to the manner in which the Hindu majority and the Union and State Governments treat the religious minorities in the rest of India, specially in regard to pilgrimages. The contrast is so striking that these developments have suddenly rekindled the debate on the pseudo-secularism and minorityism that is practiced by the Congress and its allies in the United Progressive Alliance. Apart from constructing exclusive Haj terminals in airports and offering Haj pilgrims 16 embarkation points in the country, the Union Government has been providing Haj subsidy that has been rising every year. The Haj subsidy, which was a mere Rs 25.59 crore in 1993, crossed Rs 348 crore in 2006. The cost of the subsidy has ballooned because the price the pilgrims pay for the return ticket to Jeddah has remained constant at Rs 12,000 since 1994 while the actual cost of the ticket has risen from Rs 33,000 to Rs 46,000. The number of pilgrims has also shot up. Apart from this subsidy, the Indian government has a Haj Office in the Indian Consulate in Jeddah, runs a hospital in Mecca and dispensaries in Mecca and Madinah, and sends doctors, nurses and para-medical staff to run these medical establishments during the pilgrimage. In addition, the Government has sanctioned eight ambulances and medicines for pilgrims who fall ill. The number of Haj pilgrims has gone up from 25,205 in 1993 to 1.08 lakh in 2006. Though Jammu & Kashmir is one of the less-populated States in the country, it sent the fifth biggest contingent of pilgrims (6,630) for Haj in 2006. The Congress Government in Andhra Pradesh has taken this policy of minorityism a step further and announced subsidy for Christians who wish to visit Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus. However, in the only Muslim-majority State in the Indian Union, Hindu pilgrims to the Amarnath Shrine do not qualify for grant of a few acres of land along the yatra route for provision of basic amenities. BJP leader Venkaiah Naidu put it succinctly at a public meeting in New Delhi the other day when he said the population of the Hindus may be 100 crore. But in India, Hindu pilgrims are not entitled to even 100 acres. Apart from the double standards practiced by a national party, the Hindu majority in India has also to cope with the blatant dishonesty of Muslim politicians of Jammu & Kashmir. They claim that by allocating land to the Sri Amarnath Shrine Board, the State Government has harmed the cause of 'Kashmiriyat'. Pray, what is 'Kashmiriyat'? If it supposedly means the peaceful and harmonious co-existence of Hindus and Muslims, we need to ask ourselves if that was ever there. Any history book will tell us that the onslaught on Hindus in Kashmir began in the 14th Century during the reign of Sultan Sikander. Apart from destroying Hindu temples and breaking idols, he began a systematic drive to proselytise Hindus, thus forcing large number of them to convert or migrate. His successors like Sultan Ali Shah carried on the 'good work'. In more recent times, Islamic terrorists raped and killed Hindus, burnt their homes and forced them to flee the Valley in 1989-90, leading to the most comprehensive and cold-blooded instance of ethnic cleansing in this region. An estimated three lakh Hindus have fled their homes and taken refuge in Jammu and New Delhi. Yet, Kashmiri Muslim politicians have the temerity to talk of 'Kashmiriyat' and communal amity in the State! Even more preposterous is the argument relating to demographic change. The whole world is aware of how Hindus were driven out of the Valley. Yet, we have this disgusting spectacle of politicians like Mr Omar Abdullah from the Valley stating publicly on television channels that they oppose the transfer of 100 acres to the Sri Amarnath Shrine Board because they fear that through the transfer of these few acres of land "the demographic character of Kashmir is being altered". Mr Omar Abdullah is packaged by some media houses as a 'liberal, secular' politician and is almost a permanent fixture in some television studios during debates on minority rights. But the minority rights he is concerned about are not the rights of the Hindu minority in his home State but the rights of Muslims in the rest of India. The Amarnath land allotment affair has completely exposed him. Given his objections to the allotment of land, we need to remind him that 'secularism', like charity, ought to begin at home. He must first display some passion and commitment to defend the rights of Hindus in the Kashmir Valley, just as there are many Hindu politicians in the rest of India who stand up for the rights of the Muslim minority in their States. Otherwise, his utterances will sound hypocritical and people from other Indian States will be urging media houses to please shut out this man's humbug. Incidentally, Mr Omar Abdullah is not the only Kashmiri politician who is given to double-speak. Take Mr Yasin Malik for example. He claimed on television last week that Kashmiris "are the most hospitable people in the world" and that the religious harmony that prevails in the Kashmir Valley "is unique in the world". Yet another gem from this man is that Kashmiri Muslims have been "taking care" of Hindu pilgrims all these years. Is amnesia a standard condition among Kashmiri politicians or is it that they are completely disconnected from truth? Is not Mr Malik aware of what his people have done to the Hindu minority in 1989-90? Is he not aware of the number of Hindu pilgrims who have been killed by terrorists during the Amarnath Yatra in previous years? Equally preposterous is his claim that since Muslims "take care" of Hindu pilgrims, there is no need for a Hindu Board to manage the Sri Amarnath Shrine! We should now ask Mr Malik to please apply this logic to all Muslim shrines across India. Since Hindus take such good care of Muslims (they even subsidise their pilgrimage, build Haj terminals in airports and hospitals in Jeddah), why have Waqf Boards and other Muslim religious bodies to manage mosques and dargahs? All Indians who value democracy and a secular order must challenge these purveyors of untruth and remind them that secularism is not a one-way street. >From - The Daily Pioneer Edit From kranenbu at xs4all.nl Tue Jul 15 19:31:48 2008 From: kranenbu at xs4all.nl (Rob van Kranenburg) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:01:48 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] two strange stories about women in india In-Reply-To: <368531.6713.qm@web51405.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <368531.6713.qm@web51405.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <487CADCC.9080400@xs4all.nl> but it is so easy, every time you want to do something, you refrain, simple, and then when you're bit stronger you get empty and you get full in a kinder way at least that is how i read my Rumi :) Yousuf schreef: > ...stop buying these creams? That will collapse the empire of satellite TV channels, glossy magazines and the rest. Who will allow that to happen. They are putting cameras in people's drawing rooms to survey when the family watches TV most, so that more expensive airtime could be sold for that time. In Indian family soap operas when a woman wakes up in her bed, she already has lipstick, cream and full make-up on her face. > > > > --- On Tue, 7/15/08, Rob van Kranenburg wrote: > > >> From: Rob van Kranenburg >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] two strange stories about women in india >> To: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com >> Cc: "Noora Zul" , "sarai list" >> Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 7:02 PM >> Indeed, surely this must be a time to end all this nonsense >> and simply >> stop buying these things that make other people rich and >> prey on the >> insecurities that we all have at one point or another, Rob >> >> Yousuf schreef: >> >>> This may not be the last cynical play of the western >>> >> capitalism - skin whitening may have existed since times >> immemorial. You may see an interesting collage of beauty >> ads from 1940s/50s in the following presentation: >> >>> http://tasveerghar.net/2007/javed/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- On Tue, 7/15/08, Rob van Kranenburg >>> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>>> From: Rob van Kranenburg >>>> >> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] two strange stories >>>> >> about women in india >> >>>> To: "Noora Zul" >>>> >> >> >>>> Cc: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com >>>> Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 4:16 PM >>>> Dear Yousuf and dear Noora, >>>> >>>> Yes tanning is very much in here! And I'm not >>>> >> quite >> >>>> addicted myself, but >>>> getting there. I need my vitamin D. >>>> >>>> But somehow I think that there is a difference >>>> >> between >> >>>> sunbathing and >>>> using cream to avoid sunburn and assuming that a >>>> >> whitening >> >>>> cream that is >>>> quite chemical would be so important to who you >>>> >> are that it >> >>>> is the very >>>> colonial basis of exclusion or inclusion that you >>>> >> reproduce >> >>>> in a day and >>>> age where the BRIC ( Brazil, India , China, >>>> >> Russia, >> >>>> Indonesia) countries >>>> are growing in all directions and the whole world >>>> >> is >> >>>> witnessing the >>>> economic and moral collapse of the West. It is >>>> >> almost as if >> >>>> this is a >>>> kind of last cynical play of western capitalism >>>> >> played out >> >>>> on the most >>>> vulnerable at this moment, woman and on her skin, >>>> >> the most >> >>>> visible part, >>>> saying i don't need to brand you, you will do >>>> >> that >> >>>> yourself. >>>> >>>> It seems to break gender boundraries too: >>>> guys too: >>>> >>>> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWls3U7ZZ1E&feature=related >> >>>> although the majority is targeted at women. >>>> >>>> I'm in Singapore from july 22 to 26, as >>>> >> artistic >> >>>> advisor to this meeting >>>> >>>> >>>> >> http://www.asef.org/index.php?option=com_project&task=view&id=21 >> >>>> and we have a Pecha Kucha style evening with about >>>> >> 30 >> >>>> presenters ( ISEA >>>> artists, theorists, researchers) on the 24th, you >>>> >> are very >> >>>> welcome! >>>> >>>> Greetings, Rob >>>> >>>> >>>> ps. I've taking of the reader list cc as i >>>> >> don't >> >>>> see your messages >>>> appearing on the list >>>> >>>> >>>> Noora Zul schreef: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Dear Yousuf & Rob >>>>> >>>>> I couldn't resist adding this. I'm >>>>> >> actually >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> from Singapore, and Malay >>>> >>>> >>>>> in terms of ethnicity (in terms of skin >>>>> >> colour, we >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> tend towards being >>>> >>>> >>>>> brown). The skin-whitening ad >>>>> >> 'phenomenon' >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> also exists here, and >>>> >>>> >>>>> similarly in Malaysia and Indonesia (which is >>>>> >> more >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> preponderantly >>>> >>>> >>>>> Malay peoples). And it does seem to break >>>>> >> racial >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> boundaries, because >>>> >>>> >>>>> there are ads too targeting at the Chinese >>>>> >> women. It >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> is quite an >>>> >>>> >>>>> obsession, with products ranging from specific >>>>> >>>>> >>>> whitening creams to >>>> >>>> >>>>> things like compacts boasting additional >>>>> >> whitening >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> properties. There >>>> >>>> >>>>> is (strangely) the ambition to be fair in an >>>>> >> extremely >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> sunny tropical >>>> >>>> >>>>> region, where getting a tan is more easily >>>>> >> achieved. >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> This was kinda >>>> >>>> >>>>> sharpened for me when I noticed that when I >>>>> >> was living >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> in London, it >>>> >>>> >>>>> seemed that tanning products were more of >>>>> >> 'the >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> rage'. >>>> >>>> >>>>> Noora >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:48 PM, Yousuf >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear Rob >>>>> I posted your last link about the >>>>> >> skin-whitening >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> adverts to some >>>> >>>> >>>>> friends on facebook, and it seems to be >>>>> >> leading to >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> an interesting >>>> >>>> >>>>> debate there, especially the fact that the >>>>> >>>>> >>>> skin-whitening is not >>>> >>>> >>>>> only an Indian phenomena - strange >>>>> >> tendencies are >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> still emerging >>>> >>>> >>>>> about the colour of the skin even outside >>>>> >> India... >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> http://www.facebook.com/inbox/readmessage.php?t=1004356748350 >> >>>> >>>> >>>>> I guess you'll need to log in to >>>>> >> facebook with >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> an ID to see this. >>>> >>>> >>>>> Yousuf >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- On Sun, 7/13/08, Rob van Kranenburg >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >> wrote: >> >>>>> > From: Rob van Kranenburg >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> > >>>>> > Subject: [Reader-list] two strange >>>>> >> stories >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> about women in india >>>> >>>> >>>>> > To: >>>>> > Cc: "sarai list" >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> > >>>>> > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 9:00 PM >>>>> > hi, >>>>> > >>>>> > i can not make sense of it, but maybe >>>>> >> someone >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> can: >>>> >>>> >>>>> > >>>>> > two strange stories about women in >>>>> >> india: >> >>>>> > >>>>> > one on the ratio male - female >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >> http://www.actionaid.org.uk/doc_lib/disappearing_daughters_0608.pdf >> >>>> >>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >> http://www.punjabnewsline.com/content/view/10896/93/ >> >>>> >>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >> http://actionaidindia.org/camp_violence.htm >> >>>>> > >>>>> > and one very scary ad: >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKEF-8XkWMU >> >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/skinwhitening-adverts-ignite-race-row-in-india-863936.html >> >>>> >>>> >>>>> > >>>>> > greetings, rob >>>>> > >>>>> >> _________________________________________ >> >>>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list >>>>> >> on media >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> and the city. >>>> >>>> >>>>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> > To subscribe: send an email to >>>>> > reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>>> >>>>> >> with >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> subscribe in the subject >>>> >>>> >>>>> > header. >>>>> > To unsubscribe: >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>>> >>>> >>>>> > List archive: >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >> >> >>>> >>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on >>>>> >> media and >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> the city. >>>> >>>> >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to >>>>> >>>>> >>>> reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> with >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> subscribe in the >>>> >>>> >>>>> subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> >>>>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>>> >>>> >>>>> List archive: >>>>> >>>>> >> >> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > > > > From anansi1 at earthlink.net Tue Jul 15 21:52:14 2008 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul Miller) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:22:14 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] First Guantanamo Video Release! New Album! Message-ID: <650F92EC-EAA7-4F13-9EF5-E359FC5DADE3@earthlink.net> Hey! It's the latest release from your favorite band! The Guantanamo Beat! It's from a major record label! The U.S. Government! Check the single! Paul http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7507216.stm The video was filmed secretly through an air duct A videotape of a detainee being questioned at the US prison camp in Guantanamo Bay has been released for the first time on the internet. It shows 16-year-old Omar Khadr being asked by Canadian officials in 2003 about events leading up to his capture by US forces, Canadian media have said. The Canadian citizen is accused of throwing a grenade that killed a US soldier in Afghanistan in 2002. He is seen in a distressed state and complaining that he has been tortured. The footage was made public by Mr Khadr's lawyers following a Supreme Court ruling in May that the Canadian authorities had to hand over key evidence against him to allow a full defence of the charges he is facing. 'Help me' During the 10-minute video - filmed secretly through a ventilation shaft - Mr Khadr can be seen crying, his face buried in his hands, and pulling at his hair. He can be heard repeatedly chanting: "Help me." I hope Canadians will be outraged to see the callous and disgraceful treatment of a Canadian youth Dennis Edney Lawyer for Omar Khadr Q&A: Military tribunals At one point he tells the foreign ministry official and agents from the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) that he was tortured while being held at the US military detention centre at Bagram air base in Afghanistan. He raises his orange shirt to show wounds and tells them: "You don't care about me." Later, one of the officials tells Mr Khadr: "You know I'm not a doctor, but I think you're getting good medical care." Mr Khadr, the only Westerner still held at the jail, was 15 when he was captured by US forces during a gun battle at a suspected al-Qaeda camp in Afghanistan. One of Mr Khadr's lawyers, Dennis Edney, said they hoped the video would cause an outcry in Canada and pressure Prime Minister Stephen Harper to demand the US not prosecute their client. "I hope Canadians will be outraged to see the callous and disgraceful treatment of a Canadian youth," Mr Edney told the Toronto Star. "Canadians should demand to know why they've been lied to." Mr Harper reiterated last week that he would not interfere in Mr Khadr's military tribunal, due to begin at Guantanamo on 8 October. Mr Khadr, now 21, faces multiple terrorism-related charges, the most serious of which is murder. He faces up to life in prison if convicted. From nicheant at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 15 21:59:56 2008 From: nicheant at yahoo.co.uk (Nishant) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:29:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Applications Invited for CACIM Forum Fellowship 2008-09 Message-ID: <590939.84711.qm@web27903.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> APPLICATIONS INVITED FOR CACIM FORUM FELLOWSHIPS 2008-9 (4) More info @ http://cacim.net/twiki/tiki-index.php?page=Fellowships Last Date for Application August 17 2008 CACIM(Critical Action - Centre in Movement), based in New Delhi, India but active in local and global networking, and an initiative towards promoting criticality in socio-political action and movement by promoting a culture of critical engagement and reflection, is again offering four Fellowships on the World Social Forum process.CACIM is involved in research on and documentation of the Forum and other related processes (such as social movements); plays an active role in the organising process of WSF in India and globally; publishes books, reports, newsletters, and bibliographies on the Forum, both in Hindi and English; and organises local and global debates and discussions around the WSF, its programmes and politics, and related issues. For details on the Forum and on our work on the Forum, see www.openspaceforum.net and www.cacim.net; and for 'official' details on the Forum, www.worldsocialforum.org. This is the second round of the award of these Fellowships. (For details on the first round during 2007-8, see http://www.cacim.net/twiki/tiki-index.php?page=Fellowships.) As do many others, CACIM considers the WSF to be a very significant social and political initiative – but where, like all such processes, it also has its problems. The Forum Fellowshipsprovide opportunities for young activists, students, and researchers to critically look at different aspects of the Forum process in India and globally.This would include intensive interaction with social and popular movements and with civil organisations and networks, in India and South Asia and as far as possible globally – both those who are part of the WSF process and also with movements and organisations who have either boycotted or stayed away from the WSF and/or who take part in similar but alternative processes. We hope that the Fellowships will provide the opportunity to the Fellows to develop a substantial understanding of the Forum and also engage with and study wider socio-political processes in the country and in the world as they are emerging; and through this, to contribute to strengthening both the Forum and socio-political movement. We invite Fellows to critically examine the procedural depth, methodology, potentialities, and limitations of the Forum and of the 'new politics' of 'open space' that it professes, and also the impacts that the WSF and these politics may be having on socio-political movements and processes in the region. The 2008-9 Forum Fellowships, offered for a period of six months (September 2008 – February 2009), will provide candidates with Rs 50,000 for the preparation of a research paper to be presented at a Workshop on the WSF that CACIM will organise in mid 2009.Selected Fellows will be provided with literature published on the Forum and with contacts in India and worldwide, and will receive introductions to mentors / advisors both within India and from around the world for assistance in sharpening their Fellowship work. The process will include an orientation workshop and at least one interim review meeting that will take place in the course of their Fellowships, as well as a final public Workshop where the Fellows will present their research findings.  CACIM also undertakes to publish and publicise the research papers. This round of Fellowships will start from September 1 2008 and continue till February 28 2009. Fellows will be expected to budget the Fellowship award to cover their stipend as well as all research and other related expenses for their Fellowship work. They will be expected to attend all the review meetings and the final Workshop, and also the final Workshop of the current 2007-8 process, which will take place in New Delhi during August 29-30 2008. CACIM will take care of travel and staying expenses for attending all the meetings. At the end of the Fellowship period, Fellows will be expected to submit a well researched and referenced paper of publishable quality on their theme of study, along with all supporting material. They will also be expected to submit copies (or originals, if they prefer) to CACIM of any research material generated in course of their study (such as documents, newsclippings, interview tapes, articles, etc), for its archives on the WSF and on social movements, which are publicly available. While we do not expect Fellows to devote full time to their Fellowship work, given the quality of work that is expected Fellows must expect to make a serious and definite time commitment to their award work. For this round of Fellowships, we are again accepting applications only from people living within India, though both from Indian and other nationalities. Candidates may be from any discipline and background. No formal academic qualification is required for application. Applications can be in English or Hindi. Due to our own limitations at the moment, we are not able to entertain applications in other languages but welcome ideas for including them in this endeavour. The following are some suggested themes for study, but the awards will not limited to these areas only :  -- The roles, potentials, and limitations of the WSF process in relation to the particular experiences, visions, aspirations, and expectations of various sections of Indian society such as Dalits, Adivasis, women, the physically challenged, sexual minorities, and others, as well as their questions and dilemmas in this regard through any engagement they may have had with the Forum process so far -- Has the WSF managed to promote inter-movement networking and dialogue ? -- What is the social and political significance and relevance of the WSF process in India, in the context of wider emerging social, political, and economic conditions, and related issues – in the country and globally ? -- The organising principles, political economy, and/or information architecture of the Forum, in India and worldwide. Please send your application by email to cacim [at] cacim.net or by post by August 17 2008 along with : -- A short research proposal indicating the scope, nature, and approach of your proposed research (covering objectives, method, and literature and other references; plus a first list of contacts in your subject and/or field areas) -- One writing sample(published or unpublished), and - -- Your detailed CV(two relevant references preferable).     The Fellowships will be announced on August 20-21 2008. CACIM is committed to promoting diversity in all its work, and women and other persons are encouraged to apply.  We especially encourage those who have been active within the Forum process to apply. CACIM, A-3 Defence Colony, New Delhi 110 024, India.  Ph : +91-11-4155 1521 cacim [at] cacim.net, www.cacim.net / www.openspaceforum.net ------------- Subscribe to WSFDiscuss, an open and unmoderated forum on the World Social Forum and on related social and political movements and issues. Simply send an empty email to worldsocialforum-discuss-subscribe at openspaceforum.net   And, NEW ! : Join CEOS at openspaceforum.net, the CEOS (Critical Engagement with Open Space) listserve for exchange and coordination on open space theory and practice and to facilitate a critical discussion of the idea of ‘open space’.  Just send an empty mail to CEOS-subscribe at openspaceforum.net __________________________________________________________ Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html From taraprakash at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 22:08:29 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:38:29 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar References: <157161.55226.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <016701c8e699$3a2c0f90$f6387946@taraprakash> Body bags reaching Australia was of their own choosing. Various close allies of the US refused to send their troops to Iraq. One of them was France. And people there perhaps preferred body bags. They voted out the government which refused to be hoodwinked by the Bush administration. Does it sound logical? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 6:02 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > How was it that australian PM seen by citizens of that nation before being > voted out after the body bags started coming in from Iraq. ? > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 1:47 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> Dear Radhikarajen >> >> Do I "want the one billion citizens see their PM as lapdog of >> American president.?" ? >> >> No I do not. >> >> Again, you are not only missing the point but seem to not know >> well the issues that you are talking about. >> >> Let me repeat - Going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand- >> alone issues and not connected with or to be clubbed with any >> "deal with the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA and NSG, they >> are to be thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National >> Interest". >> >> Your other point now. Yes "by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear >> apartheid will come >> to an end" to a large degree. It will defenitely be much better >> for India. There is no 'feel' factor or 'speculation' in that >> contention. It is factual. >> >> In case you are tempted to refer to it, that there is hypocrisy in >> the 'nuclearisation ethics' of the 'nuclear' countries is also >> well known and accepted as fact. >> >> It might (or might not be) pertinent to mention here that Vajpayee >> publicly declared that India was willing to join the CTBT regime >> without (there is no evidence to the contrary) the "nuclear >> apartheid" ending in totality. In many ways that was acceptance of >> and submission to not only the 'nuclear apartheid' but also the >> hypocrisy in the 'nuclearisation ethics' of the 'nuclear' >> countries. >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> --- On Tue, 7/15/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net >> wrote: >> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 12:35 PM >> >> Kshemendra, >> >> lecturing is not debating or exchane of views, we have been >> exchanging our >> thoughts, if you fell for lecturing it is your choice, not mine. >> >> Tell me, please , by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear >> apartheid will come >> to an end, is the feel and speculation, but at what cost. ? Do you >> want the one >> billion citizens see their PM as lapdog of American president.? >> >> Regards. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Kshmendra Kaul >> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:52 pm >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> >> > Dear Radhikarajen >> > >> > You are lecturing me on everything else but not addressing the >> > simpler issues that would put things in perspective with regards >> > to approaches to IAEA and subsequently the NSG. >> > >> > I repeat, going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand- >> alone >> > issues and not connected with or to be clubbed with any "deal >> with >> > the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA and NSG, they are to be >> > thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National Interest". >> > >> > The (relative) HONESTY or DISHONESTY of Manmohan Singh is also >> > inconsequential to the much more important issue of negotiations >> > with IAEA and NSG being satisfactorily concluded. >> > >> > Kshmendra >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net >> >> > wrote: >> > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >> > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 4:05 PM >> > >> > Kshemendra, >> > >> > yes, questions have questions in them, agreeable thoughts, how >> > is it that >> > these questions of nuclear deal were shrouded in darkness of >> > classified lines >> > for well over two years keeping the citizens in dark. ? >> > >> > Why suddenly now advertisements in media about the good deal >> that >> > our Mr. >> > Honest is keen about the deal. ? >> > >> > What prevented Mr. Honest to have a honest discussion of the >> > deal in media >> > and parliament instead of blanket answers that the deal is good, >> > is in the >> > national interest.? >> > >> > In any democracy, the classified documents are put to open >> > domain after a >> > period of certain number of years. they are de-classified for >> the >> > citizens to >> > know about the ommissions and commissions of the decision making >> > process in >> > democratic rule of that nation. India is perhaps one of the very >> > few democratic >> > countries which has not de-classified its classified documents >> > till date even >> > after being a free nation. >> > >> > In such a situation, the policy makers, the executors of the >> > policies and >> > the citizens who have a right to know the procedure of rule of >> > laws are >> > manipulating the records to suit their selfish interests, ? >> > >> > Even in UK and USA the documents are classified once they are >> > archived after >> > thirty years, that is documents upto 1978 are declassified that, >> > the citizens >> > know the misadventure or the good acts of babus, politicians and >> > all. Such is >> > the power of the citizens, that future babus and politicians >> will >> > be well >> > informed of the mistakes of the past. >> > >> > Do we have this in place. ? >> > >> > Regards. >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: Kshmendra Kaul >> > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 2:25 pm >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net >> =3E >> > > Dear Radhikarajen >> > > >> > > Questions have a questioning in them so they cannot be >> Utopian. >> > If >> > > my answers sounded Utopian to you, then I would disagree with >> > you >> > > that they are so. >> > > >> > > You seemed to have missed the point (completely) in my >> questions >> > > and my answers: >> > > >> > > 1. Going through the IAEA and NSG routines does not in any way >> > > whatsoever mean that you have entered into the (legally >> > > enforceable) deal with the USA. Do you disagree? >> > > >> > > 2. Successfully going through the IAEA and NSG routines leaves >> > > India better placed to enter into a deal or deals with any >> > country >> > > of (nuclear) interest, an access which is currently blocked. >> USA >> > > need not be one such country that India "deals' with. Do >> you >> > disagree? >> > > >> > > Whether USA is an 'angelic' entity or a 'satanic' one >> does >> > not >> > > come into the picture. >> > > >> > > >> > > Kshmendra >> > > >> > > >> > > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net >> > >> > > wrote: >> > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net >> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >> > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >> > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> > > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 12:38 PM >> > > >> > > Kshemendra, >> > > >> > > your questions are basically utopian and answers given by you >> > > are only >> > > theoratical and not practical, after the citizens of the world >> > > have seen how if >> > > you are with America, you have to be ready to recieve body >> bags >> > > for the >> > > misadventure of America for its leaders folly in Afghanistan >> > and >> > > Iraq.Australian PM Howard was seen by his citizens as lapdog >> of >> > > Bush, do you need a >> > > hairy happy lapdog of our PM on the lap of american president.? >> > > >> > > Regards. >> > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > From: Kshmendra Kaul >> > > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:07 pm >> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >> > > To: reader-list at sarai.net >> > > >> > > > Dear PK >> > > > >> > > > "Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the >> > Imperialism." >> > > > That sounds very very very "holier than thou" and >> pompous. >> > > > >> > > > Questions for you: >> > > > >> > > > 1. Does IAEA Agreement automatically place India in your >> > feared >> > > > "unholy matrimomy" (my words) with the USA? My answer >> is >> > NO. >> > > What >> > > > is yours? >> > > > >> > > > 2. Does successful negotiation with the NSG automatically >> > place >> > > > India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" with the USA? >> My >> > answer >> > > is >> > > > NO. What is yours? >> > > > >> > > > 3. Let us imagine that there is no USA, wouldn't India still >> >> > > have >> > > > to go the IAEA and NSG route if it wants to freed of current >> > > > (nuclear) restrictions on it? My answer is YES. What is yours? >> > > > >> > > > 4. Does help received from the USA with the IAEA and NSG >> place >> > > > India under any Legal obligation to (nuclear) deal >> thereafter >> > > only >> > > > or primarily with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours? >> > > > >> > > > Kshmendra >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > --- On Sat, 7/12/08, prakash ray >> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > From: prakash ray >> > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >> > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net >> > > > Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 8:52 PM >> > > > >> > > > Dear all, >> > > > >> > > > It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' >> ones >> > (read >> > > > Shuddha, >> > > > Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the >> > current >> > > > debate over >> > > > the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, >> have >> > > > 'always'attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do >> not >> > > want >> > > > to blame them for >> > > > their political positions, but I would accuse them for their >> > > > shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive >> > > > contribution or >> > > > position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves >> > 'liberated' >> > > since >> > > > we >> > > > write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that >> > our >> > > > 'falsesense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our >> > handsome >> > > > salaries and >> > > > convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that >> a >> > > > sin. However, >> > > > I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' >> > approach. >> > > > >> > > > Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not >> > > > articulate their >> > > > position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear >> sacredness. >> > > > Their belief >> > > > of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based >> > on >> > > a >> > > > reportappeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that >> they >> > > > believe what the >> > > > TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or >> > > economic >> > > > policiesetc. Shivam could have researched on the matter >> since >> > he >> > > > is a reporter >> > > > himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support >> > > extended >> > > > by the >> > > > Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting >> > > > interviewed in >> > > > the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every >> > > > newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes >> > interviews >> > > > of the >> > > > politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of >> the >> > > > Salwa Judum >> > > > infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at >> > regular >> > > > intervention >> > > > and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R >> > > > Narayanan on >> > > > the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in >> place >> > of the >> > > > customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, >> the >> > > > right-wingers >> > > > get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about >> the >> > > moderator >> > > > or >> > > > Shuddha himself? >> > > > >> > > > I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to >> the >> > US >> > > > administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and >> > > > continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I >> do >> > > not >> > > > find any >> > > > fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact >> > > that >> > > > the US and >> > > > Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do >> > not >> > > > think the >> > > > readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault >> if >> > > > someone sees >> > > > the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I >> > > consider the >> > > > nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on >> > the >> > > > poor and >> > > > less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation >> > > > against the >> > > > policies and politics of the US. >> > > > >> > > > Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. >> > > > >> > > > Let me ask some simple questions: >> > > > >> > > > Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the >> > Congress?> > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr >> Singh >> > could go >> > > > ahead with >> > > > the Deal? >> > > > Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit >> > in >> > > > elections if >> > > > the Govt falls? >> > > > Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left >> oppose >> > or >> > > > supporteverything only on the basis of the position taken by >> > the >> > > BJP?> Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology >> of >> > > the >> > > > 'clash of >> > > > civilizations'? >> > > > >> > > > Regards, >> > > > Prakash >> > > > _________________________________________ >> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> > > with >> > > > subscribe in >> > > > the subject header. >> > > > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> > > > list >> > > > List archive: >> >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > _________________________________________ >> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> > > with >> > > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> > > > list >> > > > List archive: >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> > with >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> > > list >> > > List archive: >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> > list >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Wed Jul 16 11:33:38 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:03:38 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <016701c8e699$3a2c0f90$f6387946@taraprakash> References: <157161.55226.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <016701c8e699$3a2c0f90$f6387946@taraprakash> Message-ID: Exactly right, our PM should also know that aligning himself with leaders such as Bush, is invitation to such drastic misadventures, and Bush like leaders are capable of making indian leaders make similar mistakes in their war on terror, which can not be solved by violence, but by addressing the issues involved., sorting out Israel and Palestain issue, misuse of imposition of faith in governance and in democratic life, talking of "inclusive growth" but in practise exclusivity does not help democratic good governance as now proved by the rule of UPA, left has tolerated enough of this misrule of their own compulsions to keep out "communal" forces, but truth is Congress and parties such as RJD and SP are living on communal vote banks.! Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: TaraPrakash Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 10:08 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Body bags reaching Australia was of their own choosing. Various > close allies > of the US refused to send their troops to Iraq. One of them was > France. And > people there perhaps preferred body bags. They voted out the > government > which refused to be hoodwinked by the Bush administration. Does it > sound > logical? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 6:02 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > > > How was it that australian PM seen by citizens of that nation > before being > > voted out after the body bags started coming in from Iraq. ? > > Regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 1:47 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > >> Dear Radhikarajen > >> > >> Do I "want the one billion citizens see their PM as lapdog of > >> American president.?" ? > >> > >> No I do not. > >> > >> Again, you are not only missing the point but seem to not know > >> well the issues that you are talking about. > >> > >> Let me repeat - Going through the IAEA and NSG routines are > stand- > >> alone issues and not connected with or to be clubbed with any > >> "deal with the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA and NSG, they > >> are to be thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National > >> Interest". > >> > >> Your other point now. Yes "by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear > >> apartheid will come > >> to an end" to a large degree. It will defenitely be much better > >> for India. There is no 'feel' factor or 'speculation' in that > >> contention. It is factual. > >> > >> In case you are tempted to refer to it, that there is hypocrisy in > >> the 'nuclearisation ethics' of the 'nuclear' countries is also > >> well known and accepted as fact. > >> > >> It might (or might not be) pertinent to mention here that Vajpayee > >> publicly declared that India was willing to join the CTBT regime > >> without (there is no evidence to the contrary) the "nuclear > >> apartheid" ending in totality. In many ways that was acceptance of > >> and submission to not only the 'nuclear apartheid' but also the > >> hypocrisy in the 'nuclearisation ethics' of the 'nuclear' > >> countries. > >> > >> Kshmendra > >> > >> > >> --- On Tue, 7/15/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net > >> wrote: > >> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > >> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > >> Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 12:35 PM > >> > >> Kshemendra, > >> > >> lecturing is not debating or exchane of views, we have been > >> exchanging our > >> thoughts, if you fell for lecturing it is your choice, not mine. > >> > >> Tell me, please , by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear > >> apartheid will come > >> to an end, is the feel and speculation, but at what cost. ? Do you > >> want the one > >> billion citizens see their PM as lapdog of American president.? > >> > >> Regards. > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Kshmendra Kaul > >> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:52 pm > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > >> To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> > >> > Dear Radhikarajen > >> > > >> > You are lecturing me on everything else but not addressing the > >> > simpler issues that would put things in perspective with regards > >> > to approaches to IAEA and subsequently the NSG. > >> > > >> > I repeat, going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand- > >> alone > >> > issues and not connected with or to be clubbed with any "deal > >> with > >> > the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA and NSG, they are to be > >> > thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National Interest". > >> > > >> > The (relative) HONESTY or DISHONESTY of Manmohan Singh is also > >> > inconsequential to the much more important issue of negotiations > >> > with IAEA and NSG being satisfactorily concluded. > >> > > >> > Kshmendra > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net > >> > >> > wrote: > >> > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > >> > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > >> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > >> > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 4:05 PM > >> > > >> > Kshemendra, > >> > > >> > yes, questions have questions in them, agreeable thoughts, how > >> > is it that > >> > these questions of nuclear deal were shrouded in darkness of > >> > classified lines > >> > for well over two years keeping the citizens in dark. ? > >> > > >> > Why suddenly now advertisements in media about the good deal > >> that > >> > our Mr. > >> > Honest is keen about the deal. ? > >> > > >> > What prevented Mr. Honest to have a honest discussion of the > >> > deal in media > >> > and parliament instead of blanket answers that the deal is good, > >> > is in the > >> > national interest.? > >> > > >> > In any democracy, the classified documents are put to open > >> > domain after a > >> > period of certain number of years. they are de-classified for > >> the > >> > citizens to > >> > know about the ommissions and commissions of the decision making > >> > process in > >> > democratic rule of that nation. India is perhaps one of the very > >> > few democratic > >> > countries which has not de-classified its classified documents > >> > till date even > >> > after being a free nation. > >> > > >> > In such a situation, the policy makers, the executors of the > >> > policies and > >> > the citizens who have a right to know the procedure of rule of > >> > laws are > >> > manipulating the records to suit their selfish interests, ? > >> > > >> > Even in UK and USA the documents are classified once they are > >> > archived after > >> > thirty years, that is documents upto 1978 are declassified that, > >> > the citizens > >> > know the misadventure or the good acts of babus, politicians and > >> > all. Such is > >> > the power of the citizens, that future babus and politicians > >> will > >> > be well > >> > informed of the mistakes of the past. > >> > > >> > Do we have this in place. ? > >> > > >> > Regards. > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: Kshmendra Kaul > >> > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 2:25 pm > >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> =3E > >> > > Dear Radhikarajen > >> > > > >> > > Questions have a questioning in them so they cannot be > >> Utopian. > >> > If > >> > > my answers sounded Utopian to you, then I would disagree with > >> > you > >> > > that they are so. > >> > > > >> > > You seemed to have missed the point (completely) in my > >> questions > >> > > and my answers: > >> > > > >> > > 1. Going through the IAEA and NSG routines does not in any way > >> > > whatsoever mean that you have entered into the (legally > >> > > enforceable) deal with the USA. Do you disagree? > >> > > > >> > > 2. Successfully going through the IAEA and NSG routines leaves > >> > > India better placed to enter into a deal or deals with any > >> > country > >> > > of (nuclear) interest, an access which is currently blocked. > >> USA > >> > > need not be one such country that India "deals' with. Do > >> you > >> > disagree? > >> > > > >> > > Whether USA is an 'angelic' entity or a 'satanic' one > >> does > >> > not > >> > > come into the picture. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Kshmendra > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net > >> > > >> > > wrote: > >> > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > >> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > >> > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > >> > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > >> > > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 12:38 PM > >> > > > >> > > Kshemendra, > >> > > > >> > > your questions are basically utopian and answers given by you > >> > > are only > >> > > theoratical and not practical, after the citizens of the world > >> > > have seen how if > >> > > you are with America, you have to be ready to recieve body > >> bags > >> > > for the > >> > > misadventure of America for its leaders folly in Afghanistan > >> > and > >> > > Iraq.Australian PM Howard was seen by his citizens as lapdog > >> of > >> > > Bush, do you need a > >> > > hairy happy lapdog of our PM on the lap of american president.? > >> > > > >> > > Regards. > >> > > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > >> > > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:07 pm > >> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > >> > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> > > > >> > > > Dear PK > >> > > > > >> > > > "Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the > >> > Imperialism." > >> > > > That sounds very very very "holier than thou" and > >> pompous. > >> > > > > >> > > > Questions for you: > >> > > > > >> > > > 1. Does IAEA Agreement automatically place India in your > >> > feared > >> > > > "unholy matrimomy" (my words) with the USA? My answer > >> is > >> > NO. > >> > > What > >> > > > is yours? > >> > > > > >> > > > 2. Does successful negotiation with the NSG automatically > >> > place > >> > > > India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" with the USA? > >> My > >> > answer > >> > > is > >> > > > NO. What is yours? > >> > > > > >> > > > 3. Let us imagine that there is no USA, wouldn't India still > >> > >> > > have > >> > > > to go the IAEA and NSG route if it wants to freed of current > >> > > > (nuclear) restrictions on it? My answer is YES. What is > yours?>> > > > > >> > > > 4. Does help received from the USA with the IAEA and NSG > >> place > >> > > > India under any Legal obligation to (nuclear) deal > >> thereafter > >> > > only > >> > > > or primarily with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours? > >> > > > > >> > > > Kshmendra > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > --- On Sat, 7/12/08, prakash ray > >> wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > > From: prakash ray > >> > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > >> > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> > > > Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 8:52 PM > >> > > > > >> > > > Dear all, > >> > > > > >> > > > It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' > >> ones > >> > (read > >> > > > Shuddha, > >> > > > Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the > >> > current > >> > > > debate over > >> > > > the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, > >> have > >> > > > 'always'attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do > >> not > >> > > want > >> > > > to blame them for > >> > > > their political positions, but I would accuse them for their > >> > > > shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive > >> > > > contribution or > >> > > > position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves > >> > 'liberated' > >> > > since > >> > > > we > >> > > > write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that > >> > our > >> > > > 'falsesense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our > >> > handsome > >> > > > salaries and > >> > > > convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that > >> a > >> > > > sin. However, > >> > > > I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' > >> > approach. > >> > > > > >> > > > Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not > >> > > > articulate their > >> > > > position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear > >> sacredness. > >> > > > Their belief > >> > > > of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based > >> > on > >> > > a > >> > > > reportappeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that > >> they > >> > > > believe what the > >> > > > TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or > >> > > economic > >> > > > policiesetc. Shivam could have researched on the matter > >> since > >> > he > >> > > > is a reporter > >> > > > himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support > >> > > extended > >> > > > by the > >> > > > Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting > >> > > > interviewed in > >> > > > the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every > >> > > > newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes > >> > interviews > >> > > > of the > >> > > > politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of > >> the > >> > > > Salwa Judum > >> > > > infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at > >> > regular > >> > > > intervention > >> > > > and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President > K R > >> > > > Narayanan on > >> > > > the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in > >> place > >> > of the > >> > > > customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, > >> the > >> > > > right-wingers > >> > > > get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about > >> the > >> > > moderator > >> > > > or > >> > > > Shuddha himself? > >> > > > > >> > > > I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to > >> the > >> > US > >> > > > administration that is waging war against mankind > everywhere and > >> > > > continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I > >> do > >> > > not > >> > > > find any > >> > > > fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact > >> > > that > >> > > > the US and > >> > > > Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do > >> > not > >> > > > think the > >> > > > readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault > >> if > >> > > > someone sees > >> > > > the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I > >> > > consider the > >> > > > nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on > >> > the > >> > > > poor and > >> > > > less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation > >> > > > against the > >> > > > policies and politics of the US. > >> > > > > >> > > > Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. > >> > > > > >> > > > Let me ask some simple questions: > >> > > > > >> > > > Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the > >> > Congress?> > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr > >> Singh > >> > could go > >> > > > ahead with > >> > > > the Deal? > >> > > > Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit > >> > in > >> > > > elections if > >> > > > the Govt falls? > >> > > > Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left > >> oppose > >> > or > >> > > > supporteverything only on the basis of the position taken by > >> > the > >> > > BJP?> Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology > >> of > >> > > the > >> > > > 'clash of > >> > > > civilizations'? > >> > > > > >> > > > Regards, > >> > > > Prakash > >> > > > _________________________________________ > >> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > > > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> > > with > >> > > > subscribe in > >> > > > the subject header. > >> > > > To unsubscribe: > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> > > > list > >> > > > List archive: > >> > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > _________________________________________ > >> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > > > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> > > with > >> > > > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > > > To unsubscribe: > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> > > > list > >> > > > List archive: > >> > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > _________________________________________ > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> > with > >> > > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> > > list > >> > > List archive: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> > list > >> > List archive: > >> > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> list > >> List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > From asitredsalute at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 11:39:52 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:39:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] peoplespolitcal front conference resolution on lalit mehtas murder Message-ID: RESOLUTION This conference of people's political front condemns the brutal murder of Lalit Mehta and Kameswar Yadav Grassroots activists of Jharkhand who were involved in the social audit of National rural employment guareente act in Jharkhand.We demand the Jharkhand police to stop harrassing thier family members and doesn't indulge in deliberately diluting the CBI enquiry into Lalit Mehta's murder.We demand full protection to be given to activists involved in social audit of NREGA. People's Political Front National Conference Rajasthan Khadi Gramodyog Sanstha Sangh Jaipur 12-13 July 2008 From getsim2222 at yahoo.co.in Wed Jul 16 14:15:38 2008 From: getsim2222 at yahoo.co.in (simran chadha) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:15:38 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Indian Kashmir In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <663385.58914.qm@web8712.mail.in.yahoo.com> they had discovered something similar in the jaffna peninsula, vavuniya, if i remember correctly, on a hilltop, mass graves with bodies decomposed only the skeletal remains. the state insisted an ancient civilization was being discovered until a brass bangle with name  - very contemporary fashion was discovered on the skeletons exhumed. some of the dead were duly identified. the army then issued hundreds of coffins, called the priest and duly had the last rites performed with the villagers paying their last respects to whoever it was they had lost, at gunpoint ofcourse. sadly and terrifyingly,  this grotesque and macabretragedy seems to be playing time and again. simran --- On Tue, 15/7/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Indian Kashmir To: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" Cc: "sarai list" , ccs at jkccs.org Date: Tuesday, 15 July, 2008, 12:53 PM With divided polity, the role of 'tribunals" , commisssions is by itself highly unwarranted for the simple reason, at the election times the Judges have fudged quite a few reports, like the train burning in Gujarath, like the sacchar and his jhoota report which addresses the issue in such partisan ways that the politics of bringing out such reports at the time of elections becomes an effort to refurbish the tarnished images of culprits against humans. In democratic life, good govrnance should cover every citizen irrespective of faith, caste or region, when ethics and morals of those in public life are at new lows, such tribunals with retired and tired individuals becomes a game of vote catching jargon. The reports that have been gathering dust in the last sixty years without any results of improvement of citizens as a result of such tribunal and judicial commission reports is national waste of exchequer and retired personnels appeasement to gain votes. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 5:21 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Indian Kashmir To: Pawan Durani Cc: sarai list , ccs at jkccs.org > Dear Pawan, > > The tribunal is only demanding an enquiry to establish whose graves > these are. Why is the security establishment afraid of an enquiry? > > "Unidentified" and 'unidentifiable', are, by the way, also terms used > in the discourse on the Pandit killings. See > http://shivamvij.com/2008/05/10/report-on-pandit-killings- > rekindles-communal-fissures-in-valley/ > > best > shivam > > On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 1:38 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > Shivam , > > > > During the days os mass insurgencies , encounters at border > discrict were > > very common . it ususally happened when the terrorists used to > sneak into > > India in large groups. > > > > In each encounter , scores of people used to die .Many bodies > would remain > > unidentified and police but usual used to bury them. > > > > If today , a different story is eing made of those graves , the > rest of > > world should be made aware of the past instead of > sensationalising the issue > > to create more distrust and hate. > > > > Regards > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On 7/12/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > >> > >> Dear Khurram, > >> > >> Thanks for posting this. The Delhi media's conspiracy of silence > >> around human rights violations in Kashmir, as also the > intimidation of > >> those like you who seek to defend human rights, sadly seems > reflected>> on this list - this list seems to endlessly list the > sentiments of > >> some and is silent on an article like this. > >> > >> best > >> shivam > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Khurram Parvez > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > A PDF of the article with photos can be found on the Tribunal > website>> > at: > >> > > >> > > http://kashmirprocess.org/news/20080708_MassGravesKashmirChatterji.pdf>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Indian Kashmir > >> > > >> > Etala'at, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar, 09 July 2008 > >> > > >> > http://etalaat.com/english/Dimensions/1531.html > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Dirt, rubble, thick grass, hillside and flatland, crowded > with graves. > >> > Signifiers of military and paramilitary terror, masked from > the world. > >> > Constructed by institutions of state to conceal massacre. > Placed next > >> > to homes, fields, schools, an army practise range. Unknown, > unmarked.>> > Over 940 graves in a segment of Baramulla district > alone. Some > >> > containing more than one cadaver. Dug by locals, coerced by > the police, > >> > on village land. Bodies dragged through the night, some tortured, > >> > burnt, desecrated. Circulating mythology claims these graves > uniformly>> > house 'foreign militants'. Exhumation and > identification have not > >> > occurred in most cases. When undertaken, in sizable > instances, records > >> > prove the dead to be local people, ordinary citizens, killed > in fake > >> > encounters. In instances where bodies have been identified as > local,>> > non-militant and militant, it demystifies state > rhetoric that rumours > >> > these persons to be 'foreign militants', propagating > misrepresentation>> > that the demand for self-determination is > prevailingly external. > >> > Mourned, cared for, by locals, as 'farz'/duty, as part of an > >> > obligation, stated repeatedly, to 'azadi'. 'Azadi'/freedom to > determine>> > self and future. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 18 and 20 June, the International People's Tribunal on > Human Rights > >> > and Justice in Indian-administered Kashmir ('Tribunal', > convened in > >> > April 2008, www.kashmirprocess.org) visited Baramulla and Kupwara > >> > district to conduct ongoing fact-finding and verification > related to > >> > mass graves at the behest of local communities. The team > comprised of > >> > Tribunal Conveners Advocate Parvez Imroz and myself, a staff > member,>> > and camera crew. =3E >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 18 June, we visited Raja Mohalla in Uri, Baramulla > district, 110 > >> > kilometres from Srinagar, where 22 graves were constructed > between>> > 1996-1997. Then to Quazipora, where 13 bodies were > stated as buried in > >> > seven graves in 1991. Then we travelled to Chehal, Bimyar > village, Uri, > >> > holding 235 graves. We re-met Atta Mohammad, gravedigger and > caretaker>> > at Chehal, who testified that these bodies, brought > by the police, > >> > primarily after dark, were buried between 2002-2006. Atta > Mohammad said > >> > that the bodies appear in his nightmares, each in graphic, > gruesome>> > detail. Terrorised by the task forced upon him, his > nights are bereft > >> > of sleep. Then we travelled to Mir Mohalla, Kichama, Sheeri, > to the > >> > main graveyard with 105 graves, stated to hold about 225-250 > bodies,>> > buried between 1994-2003, and a smaller graveyard, > with nine graves, > >> > adjacent to a sign proclaiming it a 'Model Village'. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 20 June, we visited the northern district of Kupwara. On > the way we > >> > witnessed army convoys, including one of 21+ vehicles. > Created in 1979 > >> > through the forking of Baramulla district, approximately > 5,000 feet > >> > above sea level, Kupwara borders the Line-of-Control to the > north and > >> > west. Between Shamsbari and Pirpanchal mountain ranges, it is > one of > >> > the most heavily militarised zones, about 95 kilometres from > Srinagar.>> > Kupwara houses six army camps, as military and > paramilitary forces > >> > occupy significant land. Seven interrogation centres have been > >> > operational with police stations functioning as additional > >> > interrogation cells. In Hundwara town, a watchtower surveils and > >> > regulates movement. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > In Kupwara, we visited Trehgam village, holding 85-100 > graves, 24 of > >> > which are identified, and spoke with community members. > Trehgam was > >> > home to Maqbool Bhat (b. 1938), founding figure of the Jammu > Kashmir>> > National Liberation Front. Acknowledged as Shaheed-e- > Kashmir, Bhat is > >> > labelled a 'terrorist' by certain segments of India. He > sought to unite > >> > the territories of the former princely state of Jammu and > Kashmir into > >> > a secular, sovereign, democratic state. Bhat was sentenced to > death by > >> > the Supreme Court of India and hanged in Tihar jail in New > Delhi on 11 > >> > February 1984. Maqbool Bhat's nephew, Parvaiz Ahmad Bhat, > reminded us > >> > that Habibullah Bhat, Bhat's brother, was the first case of > enforced>> > disappearance before 1989. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > After Trehgam, we reached Regipora around 3 pm and stopped > for lunch. > >> > There, two persons introduced themselves as Special Branch > Kashmir>> > (SBK) and Counter Intelligence Kashmir (CIK) > personnel, and questioned > >> > the Tribunal staff member about our visit. After responding, we > >> > proceeded to the 'martyrs' graveyard' holding 258 graves, > constructed>> > in 1995. This burial ground is meticulously > ordered, each grave > >> > numbered. The body of a 20-25 year old youth was buried in > the first > >> > week of June, reportedly killed in an encounter in Bamhama > village.>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > We stopped at a roadside tea stall to speak with local people > about the > >> > graves. Four intelligence personnel questioned us, asking we > disclose>> > information about those we had visited. Soon, four > additional SBK and > >> > CIK personnel joined the questioning. Other intelligence > personnel made > >> > phone calls. By then, about 12 intelligence personnel gathered. > >> > Following further questioning we proceeded toward Srinagar. A car > >> > followed at a distance. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > We detoured to Sadipora, Kandi, where locals stated that > around 20 > >> > bodies were buried. The graveyard, overrun with wild flowers, > is part > >> > of a larger ground used during festivals, including Id. Two > of four > >> > bodies, killed in a fake encounter on 29 April 2007, were > exhumed,>> > identified as locals, contrary to police records > stating them to be > >> > 'Pakistani terrorists'. Saidipora holds Riyaz Ahmad Bhat's grave, > >> > killed in the encounter, age 19. Police records, per the First > >> > Information Report, declared him a 'Pakistani terrorist'. > Riyaz Bhat > >> > was identified by Javeed Ahmed, his brother, as a resident of > >> > Kalashpora, Srinagar, based on police photographs from the > time of > >> > death. Ahmed travelled with the Tribunal to take us to his > brother's>> > grave. On his knees Javeed attempted to clear the > thick brush. Later, > >> > in Srinagar, he testified that Bhat had never been involved in > >> > militancy. Javeed spoke of grieving, of imprisonment and > beatings at > >> > the police station. He asked how he could have saved his > brother from > >> > death. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > After Sadiapora, we were stopped at Shangargund, Sopore, at > about 6.40 > >> > pm, by three persons in civilian clothing. They forcibly > boarded the > >> > car. We were ordered to the Sopore Police Station. There we > were asked > >> > to detail our identity, employment, the purpose of the visit, > and to > >> > hand over tapes which, the police alleged, contained > 'dangerous' and > >> > 'objectionable' material. We stated that the Tribunal, a public > >> > process, was undertaking its work peaceably, lawfully, with > informed>> > consent, and that we had not visited restricted > areas. We stated that > >> > the police had no lawful reason to seize the tapes. We were > detained>> > for 16 minutes. After several calls to senior police > persons, we were > >> > released. A red Indica car followed us to Sangrama. At Srinagar, > >> > Intelligence personnel were stationed at my hotel. On 21 > June, I was > >> > followed from the hotel to the Tribunal's office in Lal > Chowk, where > >> > about 8 personnel were stationed the entire day questioning > anyone who > >> > entered or left the office. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > My mother, residing in Calcutta, received a query regarding my > >> > whereabouts from the District Magistrate's Office. I was > followed to > >> > the Srinagar airport on 22 June, and questioned, asked if I > possessed>> > dual citizenship. I do not. I am a citizen of India > and a permanent > >> > resident of the United States. On 24 June, I arrived in > Bhubaneswar to > =3E> > submit a statement to the Commission of Inquiry on the Kandhamal > >> > violence against Christians in 2007 in Orissa. There too, Central > >> > Intelligence officials persistently inquired after me. In > April, after > >> > announcing the Tribunal, I was stopped and harassed at > Immigration>> > while leaving India for the United States, and > again on my re-entry in > >> > June. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > The targeting of the Tribunal has not abated since the > Amarnath issue > >> > erupted around 23 June. The volatile proposal to transfer 800 > kanals of > >> > land to the Shrine Board, revoked on 01 July, was supported > by the > >> > Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party and Hindu militant > Shiv Sena. > >> > Despite the Sena's recent call to Hindus to form suicide > squads, it > >> > faces no sanctions from the state. Kashmiris of diverse > ethnicities and > >> > religions dissented the Amarnath land transfer. Community > leaders in > >> > Kashmir explained that their stance against the proposal is > not in > >> > dissent to Hindu pilgrims, but a repressive state. During the > Amarnath>> > land transfer protests, civil disobedience paralleled > that of 1989, > >> > amid severe repression. On 30 June, in curfew-like > conditions, we met > >> > with two families in Srinagar who narrated that the police > had shot > >> > dead their sons. At one place, in the old city, while the men > took the > >> > body for burial late at night, the police returned and destroyed > >> > property and molested women. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 30 June, at about 10:10 pm, Parvez Imroz and his family were > >> > attacked at home by state forces, who fired three shots and > hurled a > >> > grenade while exiting when family and community interrupted their > >> > attempts. Neighbours reported seeing one large armoured > vehicle and two > >> > Gypsy cars, and men in CRPF (Central Reserve Police Force) > and SOG > >> > (Special Operations Group) uniforms. This murder attempt is an > >> > escalation in the forms of state-led intimidation and > targeting aimed > >> > at Advocate Imroz. It is an attempt to make the Tribunal > vulnerable and > >> > instil fear in us in an attempt to stop this process. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 01 July, we met at Khurram Parvez's home before addressing > a press > >> > conference. Outside, jeeps with plainclothes men continued their > >> > observation, accompanied by a jeep with armed men in uniform. > Later,>> > Advocate Imroz, Khurram Parvez, Advocate Mihir Desai, > and I went to the > >> > police station to lodge a First Information Report. We were not > >> > permitted to do so. For security reasons, Parvez Imroz is not > staying>> > at home. Khurram Parvez remains under surveillance. I > must allow for > >> > distance before revisiting the graves. On 04 July, sitting on > a plane > >> > at Delhi International Airport, waiting to take-off, I > received a phone > >> > call on my India mobile, caller 'Unknown': "Madam, we know you're > >> > leaving. Think wisely before coming back". > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Orders to unnerve the leadership of the International > Tribunal by the > >> > Government of India's intelligence and security > administration appear > >> > to be generated at the highest levels. The general policy of > >> > surveillance should not be used as a pretext to create > obstacles for > >> > our work. As India argues for a seat on the United Nations > Security>> > Council, the Government of India, as 'Frontline > Defenders' stated in > >> > their recent alert supporting the Tribunal, must adhere to > its own > >> > repeated commitment to peace in Kashmir and international > conventions>> > and laws. It must uphold democratic governance and > safeguard human > >> > rights. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Advocate Imroz, Khurram Parvez, other members of the Tribunal > team,>> > have long experienced injustices for their extraordinary > work as human > >> > rights defenders. A lauded human rights lawyer, Parvez Imroz has > >> > survived two, now three, assassination attempts, the first from > >> > militants. Since 2005, his passport has been denied. Khurram > Parvez>> > lost his leg in a landmine incident. Gautam Navlakha > and Zahir-Ud-Din > >> > have been intimidated and threatened, as has Mihir Desai, in > their>> > larger work. It is noteworthy that the Government of > India is adding > >> > intimidation to the death and rape threats delivered me by Hindu > >> > extremists for human rights work. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > The work of the Tribunal is > >> > an act of conscience and accountability, fraught with the > charge of > >> > complex and violent histories. Its mandate, in documenting > Kashmir's>> > present, is to chronicle the fabric of > militarisation, status of human > >> > rights, and legal, political, militaristic 'states of > exception'. The > >> > Tribunal's work will continue through the coming months. We have > >> > received extensive solidarity from civil society; > victims/survivors, at > >> > street corners, from villagers, ordinary citizens, those > committed to > >> > justice. Each life in Kashmir has a story to tell. The > subjugation of > >> > civil society has produced magnificent ethical resistance. > The state > >> > cannot combat every individual. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Nearly two decades of genocidal violence record 70,000+ dead, > 8,000+>> > disappeared, 60,000+ tortured, 50,000+ orphaned, > incalculable>> > sexualised and gendered violence, a very high > rate of people with > >> > suicidal behaviours; hundreds of thousands displaced; > violations of > >> > promises, laws, conventions, agreements, treaties; mass > graves; mile > >> > upon mile of barbed wire; fear, suppression of varied demands for > >> > participation to determine Kashmir's future, spirals of violence, > >> > protracted silence. Last year, Kashmir's only hospital with > services>> > for mental health received 68,000 patients. Profound > social, economic, > >> > and psychological consequences, and an intense isolation have > impacted>> > private, public, and everyday life. It has generated > brutal resistance > >> > on the part of groups that have engaged in violent militancy. > >> > Repressions of struggles for self-determination and international > >> > policies/politics have yielded severe consequences, creating > a juncture > >> > at which the failure of governance intersects with a culture > of grief. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Torture survivors, non-militants and former militants, that I > met with > >> > testified to the sadism of the forces. Reportedly, a man, > hung upside > >> > down, had petrol injected through his anus. Water-boarding, > mutilation,>> > rape of women, children, and men, starvation, > psychological torture. > >> > Brutalised, 'healed', to be brutalised again. An eagle tattoo > on the > >> > arm of a man was reportedly identified by an army officer as > a symbol > >> > of Pakistan-held Azad Kashmir, even as the man clarified the > tattoo was > >> > from his childhood. The skin containing it was burned. The > officer, the > >> > man stated, said: "When you look at this, think of azadi". A > mother,>> > reportedly asked to watch her daughter's rape by army > personnel,>> > pleaded for her release. They refused. She pleaded > that she could not > >> > watch, asking to be sent out of the room or be killed. We > were told > >> > that the soldier pointed a gun to her forehead, stating he > would grant > >> > her wish, and shot her before they proceeded to rape the > daughter. We > >> > also spoke with persons violated by militants. One man stated > that>> > people's experiences with the reprehensible atrocities of > militancy do > >> > not imply the abdication of their desire for self- > determination. This, > >> > he stated, is a mistake the state makes, conflating militancy > with the > >> > intent for self-determination. He clarified that neither is > >> > self-determination an indication of allegiance to Pakistan, > largely to > >> > the contrary. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > The continuing and daunting presence of military and paramilitary > >> > forces, increased and sophisticated surveillance, merges with > pervasive>> > and immense suffering and anger of people in > villages, towns, and > >> > cities across Kashmir. Parallel to the presence of 500,000 > troops and > >> > commitment to nuclearisation, official figures state that > there are > >> > about 450 militants in Kashmir and that demilitarisation is > underway.>> > In March 2007, three government committees on > demilitarisation resolved > >> > that the 'low intensity war continues', placing in limbo troop > >> > reduction and the repealment of draconian laws -- the Armed > Forces>> > Special Powers Act, 1958, imposed in Jammu and Kashmir > in December > >> > 1990, and the Disturbed Areas Act, 1976, enacted in 1992. Local > >> > realities reflect that these laws and the military seek to > control the > >> > general population with impunity. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Kashmir is increasingly defined as a 'post-conflict' zone. > >> > 'Post-conflict' is not the propagation of tourism toward an overt > >> > display of nationalism. Post-conflict is a space in which to > heal,>> > reflect, and enable civil society participation in > determining peace > >> > and justice. The graves speak to those that listen. Those > haunted by > >> > history are called to remember. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > (Dr. > >> > Angana Chatterji is associate professor of Social and Cultural > >> > Anthropology at the California Institute of Integral Studies and > >> > co-convener of the International People's Tribunal in Kashmir.) > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > >> > >> > >> -- > >> /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > > > > > > -- > /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 15:14:48 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:44:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration Message-ID: <304254.16332.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com>  A "International Kashmir Peace Conference" was held Washington D.C, 14th-15th July. It adopted the "Washington Declaration".   The website of "Association of Humanitarian Lawyers", one of the sponsors of the Conference, furnishes the text of the "Declaration"   Point 8 in it reads "The Conference calls for protection of all minorities. All the displaced persons including Kashmiri bandits should be facilitated to return to their ancestral home."   http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html   Did not know that "bandits" had been displaced out of Kashmir. At least they are being called 'displaced' and not 'migrants'    KK   From the.solipsist at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 15:20:35 2008 From: the.solipsist at gmail.com (Pranesh Prakash) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:20:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: References: <157161.55226.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <016701c8e699$3a2c0f90$f6387946@taraprakash> Message-ID: <4785f1e20807160250q5bdde58dgcaa64f7f24e1bb@mail.gmail.com> Enclosed below, a leader from today's Times of India. Quote: "It would be more honest to admit that the Indo-US nuclear deal is a three-in-one document comprising a civilian energy cooperation agreement with the US, de facto NPT and de facto CTBT." However, the author does not explain how the consquences of nuclear testing after the civilian nuclear energy agreement are any different from the consequences of nuclear testing without the agreement. In both cases, India is going to be faced with international sanctions (of lesser magnitude, from what I can see, after the agreement because of the assured-fuel-supply clause, though I may very well be wrong). However, by signing the deal, it can at least negotiate with the NSG for supply of uranium. Quote: "Interestingly, most western powers have been vigorously pushing for the deal, although with greater sophistication than the sledgehammer tactics characteristically employed by Americans. Diplomacy, after all, is not based on altruism. Surely, they are not falling over one another out of love or compassion for India." The deal cannot be rejected by reason of it benefiting other nations. What has to be seen is whether it benefits us also. After all, international politics is not a zero-sum game. All this does not add up to support of nuclear energy, however. There might be significant reasons to reject nuclear energy, namely a) its ecological impact, b) its cost-efficiency. But such dubious reasons as "national security" and U.S. lapdogism should not come in the way of nuclear energy. Please see http://svaradarajan.blogspot.com/2007/08/insulating-indias-reactors-from-fuel.htmlfor an excellent analysis of what would happen in a worst-case scenario after signing of the deal. -------------- Leader Article: What's In It For Us? 16 Jul 2008, 0000 hrs IST, Chandan Mitra Does India need a civilian nuclear energy agreement with the US? Is this the best deal we could have got? Why is the Bush administration trying so hard to push India into signing this deal? Has the prime minister gone about it in the best possible way? Are we bartering away our nuclear sovereignty in the process, thereby endangering our goal to maintain a credible nuclear deterrent? These are some of the key questions that needed to be satisfactorily answered in the context of the ongoing controversy that has snowballed to a point where it threatens the stability of the Manmohan Singh government. Unfortunately, the political rhetoric that is flying thick and fast for the last one year and more has obfuscated the core issues involved. Enough has been spoken and written about the need to secure India's energy needs, especially in view of rising oil prices and India's near-total dependence on imports. Sceptics, on the other hand, have argued that even after investing billions of dollars to set up new reactors, nuclear power will contribute just about 7 per cent of the country's energy requirements by 2020. But even if it is conceded that India needs every extra megawatt of energy that can be generated, whatever the source, the question still remains whether the Indo-US nuclear deal in its present form is the best that we could have bargained for. On balance, it appears that the deal is good for everybody else, apart from India. First, we will end up putting huge sums into the coffers of foreign manufacturers of nuclear reactors — mainly French, Russian and American. Second, the estimated cost per unit of nuclear energy will be prohibitively high compared to coal, gas and even crude. Can India afford power at such a high cost when alternative sources have not been exhausted? Without getting into the nuclear sovereignty issue, it can be asserted that the additional energy to be generated through uranium-based reactors will be of dubious benefit. It is often argued that the US administration has been exerting pressure on the Indian establishment because President George W Bush, reeling under unfavourable popularity ratings, wants to exhibit it as his one great foreign policy success. This is utterly fallacious: most Americans have not even heard of this deal, given their proverbial insularity and self-obsession. Further, the Republicans are hardly expected to make this an issue in the November presidential election. Interestingly, most western powers have been vigorously pushing for the deal, although with greater sophistication than the sledgehammer tactics characteristically employed by Americans. Diplomacy, after all, is not based on altruism. Surely, they are not falling over one another out of love or compassion for India. Apart from the business potential, the deal is being driven in western capitals by the motive of firmly roping India into the non-proliferation regime. India has an unblemished record here, but there are concerns about the future in view of the volatility of the Asian theatre. Since India cannot officially be admitted into the NPT, the deal has attempted to manoeuvre us into a situation where New Delhi becomes a de facto signatory to the NPT, just as we will be conferred the dubious distinction of being a de facto nuclear weapons state once we sign the deal. Following the disclosure of the text of the IAEA safeguards agreement, it is abundantly clear that, while international inspection and safeguards shall be imposed permanently on our reactors, the exemptions remain doubtful. It is widely known that for all practical purposes no further testing shall be permitted. The government has repeatedly highlighted the "walk out" clause to claim that India can test whenever it wants and even if the US imposes sanctions, we can still negotiate with other countries in the Nuclear Suppliers Group to maintain uninterrupted uranium imports. This is complete hogwash. Can anybody in his right mind believe that the US will patronisingly oversee the supply of fissile material by other countries even after India conducts another nuclear test? It would be more honest to admit that the Indo-US nuclear deal is a three-in-one document comprising a civilian energy cooperation agreement with the US, de facto NPT and de facto CTBT. A discussion on the merits and demerits of the deal would be meaningful only if we begin from this premise instead of deluding ourselves into believing that, possessed by a burning desire to help India, the US wants to hand out a "give-give" agreement with us and that nothing will change as far as our military nuclear programme is concerned. Whichever way you look at the deal, honestly or deceitfully, it is a huge political albatross. Manmohan Singh has been forced to risk his government's fate and enter into a questionable alliance with a party not known for scrupulous adherence to norms of probity in public life. When the prime minister first challenged the Left to pull out last September, it was perhaps the best moment for the Congress to go for an early election buoyed by high growth, manageable inflation and opposition incoherence. Today, all three factors are ranged unfavourably against the ruling party. Manmohan Singh has never claimed to be a master strategist, but others in his party are known for their political acumen and manipulative skills. However, they got cold feet last year and now the Congress is set to pay a price for their vacillation. In politics, as in other spheres of life, you win only if you dare; defeat is inevitable if you dither and delay. (The writer is a member of the Rajya Sabha) On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 11:33, wrote: > Exactly right, our PM should also know that aligning himself with leaders > such as Bush, is invitation to such drastic misadventures, and Bush like > leaders are capable of making indian leaders make similar mistakes in their > war on terror, which can not be solved by violence, but by addressing the > issues involved., sorting out Israel and Palestain issue, misuse of > imposition of faith in governance and in democratic life, talking of > "inclusive growth" but in practise exclusivity does not help democratic good > governance as now proved by the rule of UPA, left has tolerated enough of > this misrule of their own compulsions to keep out "communal" forces, but > truth is Congress and parties such as RJD and SP are living on communal vote > banks.! > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: TaraPrakash > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 10:08 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Body bags reaching Australia was of their own choosing. Various > > close allies > > of the US refused to send their troops to Iraq. One of them was > > France. And > > people there perhaps preferred body bags. They voted out the > > government > > which refused to be hoodwinked by the Bush administration. Does it > > sound > > logical? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Cc: > > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 6:02 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > > > > > > How was it that australian PM seen by citizens of that nation > > before being > > > voted out after the body bags started coming in from Iraq. ? > > > Regards. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 1:47 pm > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > >> Dear Radhikarajen > > >> > > >> Do I "want the one billion citizens see their PM as lapdog of > > >> American president.?" ? > > >> > > >> No I do not. > > >> > > >> Again, you are not only missing the point but seem to not know > > >> well the issues that you are talking about. > > >> > > >> Let me repeat - Going through the IAEA and NSG routines are > > stand- > > >> alone issues and not connected with or to be clubbed with any > > >> "deal with the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA and NSG, they > > >> are to be thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National > > >> Interest". > > >> > > >> Your other point now. Yes "by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear > > >> apartheid will come > > >> to an end" to a large degree. It will defenitely be much better > > >> for India. There is no 'feel' factor or 'speculation' in that > > >> contention. It is factual. > > >> > > >> In case you are tempted to refer to it, that there is hypocrisy in > > >> the 'nuclearisation ethics' of the 'nuclear' countries is also > > >> well known and accepted as fact. > > >> > > >> It might (or might not be) pertinent to mention here that Vajpayee > > >> publicly declared that India was willing to join the CTBT regime > > >> without (there is no evidence to the contrary) the "nuclear > > >> apartheid" ending in totality. In many ways that was acceptance of > > >> and submission to not only the 'nuclear apartheid' but also the > > >> hypocrisy in the 'nuclearisation ethics' of the 'nuclear' > > >> countries. > > >> > > >> Kshmendra > > >> > > >> > > >> --- On Tue, 7/15/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > >> wrote: > > >> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > >> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > >> Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 12:35 PM > > >> > > >> Kshemendra, > > >> > > >> lecturing is not debating or exchane of views, we have been > > >> exchanging our > > >> thoughts, if you fell for lecturing it is your choice, not mine. > > >> > > >> Tell me, please , by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear > > >> apartheid will come > > >> to an end, is the feel and speculation, but at what cost. ? Do you > > >> want the one > > >> billion citizens see their PM as lapdog of American president.? > > >> > > >> Regards. > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: Kshmendra Kaul > > >> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:52 pm > > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > >> To: reader-list at sarai.net > > >> > > >> > Dear Radhikarajen > > >> > > > >> > You are lecturing me on everything else but not addressing the > > >> > simpler issues that would put things in perspective with regards > > >> > to approaches to IAEA and subsequently the NSG. > > >> > > > >> > I repeat, going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand- > > >> alone > > >> > issues and not connected with or to be clubbed with any "deal > > >> with > > >> > the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA and NSG, they are to be > > >> > thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National Interest". > > >> > > > >> > The (relative) HONESTY or DISHONESTY of Manmohan Singh is also > > >> > inconsequential to the much more important issue of negotiations > > >> > with IAEA and NSG being satisfactorily concluded. > > >> > > > >> > Kshmendra > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > >> > > >> > wrote: > > >> > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > >> > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > >> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > >> > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 4:05 PM > > >> > > > >> > Kshemendra, > > >> > > > >> > yes, questions have questions in them, agreeable thoughts, how > > >> > is it that > > >> > these questions of nuclear deal were shrouded in darkness of > > >> > classified lines > > >> > for well over two years keeping the citizens in dark. ? > > >> > > > >> > Why suddenly now advertisements in media about the good deal > > >> that > > >> > our Mr. > > >> > Honest is keen about the deal. ? > > >> > > > >> > What prevented Mr. Honest to have a honest discussion of the > > >> > deal in media > > >> > and parliament instead of blanket answers that the deal is good, > > >> > is in the > > >> > national interest.? > > >> > > > >> > In any democracy, the classified documents are put to open > > >> > domain after a > > >> > period of certain number of years. they are de-classified for > > >> the > > >> > citizens to > > >> > know about the ommissions and commissions of the decision making > > >> > process in > > >> > democratic rule of that nation. India is perhaps one of the very > > >> > few democratic > > >> > countries which has not de-classified its classified documents > > >> > till date even > > >> > after being a free nation. > > >> > > > >> > In such a situation, the policy makers, the executors of the > > >> > policies and > > >> > the citizens who have a right to know the procedure of rule of > > >> > laws are > > >> > manipulating the records to suit their selfish interests, ? > > >> > > > >> > Even in UK and USA the documents are classified once they are > > >> > archived after > > >> > thirty years, that is documents upto 1978 are declassified that, > > >> > the citizens > > >> > know the misadventure or the good acts of babus, politicians and > > >> > all. Such is > > >> > the power of the citizens, that future babus and politicians > > >> will > > >> > be well > > >> > informed of the mistakes of the past. > > >> > > > >> > Do we have this in place. ? > > >> > > > >> > Regards. > > >> > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > >> > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > >> > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 2:25 pm > > >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > >> =3E > > >> > > Dear Radhikarajen > > >> > > > > >> > > Questions have a questioning in them so they cannot be > > >> Utopian. > > >> > If > > >> > > my answers sounded Utopian to you, then I would disagree with > > >> > you > > >> > > that they are so. > > >> > > > > >> > > You seemed to have missed the point (completely) in my > > >> questions > > >> > > and my answers: > > >> > > > > >> > > 1. Going through the IAEA and NSG routines does not in any way > > >> > > whatsoever mean that you have entered into the (legally > > >> > > enforceable) deal with the USA. Do you disagree? > > >> > > > > >> > > 2. Successfully going through the IAEA and NSG routines leaves > > >> > > India better placed to enter into a deal or deals with any > > >> > country > > >> > > of (nuclear) interest, an access which is currently blocked. > > >> USA > > >> > > need not be one such country that India "deals' with. Do > > >> you > > >> > disagree? > > >> > > > > >> > > Whether USA is an 'angelic' entity or a 'satanic' one > > >> does > > >> > not > > >> > > come into the picture. > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > Kshmendra > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > >> > > > >> > > wrote: > > >> > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > >> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > >> > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > >> > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > >> > > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 12:38 PM > > >> > > > > >> > > Kshemendra, > > >> > > > > >> > > your questions are basically utopian and answers given by you > > >> > > are only > > >> > > theoratical and not practical, after the citizens of the world > > >> > > have seen how if > > >> > > you are with America, you have to be ready to recieve body > > >> bags > > >> > > for the > > >> > > misadventure of America for its leaders folly in Afghanistan > > >> > and > > >> > > Iraq.Australian PM Howard was seen by his citizens as lapdog > > >> of > > >> > > Bush, do you need a > > >> > > hairy happy lapdog of our PM on the lap of american president.? > > >> > > > > >> > > Regards. > > >> > > > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- > > >> > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > >> > > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:07 pm > > >> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > >> > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > >> > > > > >> > > > Dear PK > > >> > > > > > >> > > > "Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the > > >> > Imperialism." > > >> > > > That sounds very very very "holier than thou" and > > >> pompous. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Questions for you: > > >> > > > > > >> > > > 1. Does IAEA Agreement automatically place India in your > > >> > feared > > >> > > > "unholy matrimomy" (my words) with the USA? My answer > > >> is > > >> > NO. > > >> > > What > > >> > > > is yours? > > >> > > > > > >> > > > 2. Does successful negotiation with the NSG automatically > > >> > place > > >> > > > India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" with the USA? > > >> My > > >> > answer > > >> > > is > > >> > > > NO. What is yours? > > >> > > > > > >> > > > 3. Let us imagine that there is no USA, wouldn't India still > > >> > > >> > > have > > >> > > > to go the IAEA and NSG route if it wants to freed of current > > >> > > > (nuclear) restrictions on it? My answer is YES. What is > > yours?>> > > > > > >> > > > 4. Does help received from the USA with the IAEA and NSG > > >> place > > >> > > > India under any Legal obligation to (nuclear) deal > > >> thereafter > > >> > > only > > >> > > > or primarily with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours? > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Kshmendra > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > --- On Sat, 7/12/08, prakash ray > > >> wrote: > > >> > > > > > >> > > > From: prakash ray > > >> > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > > >> > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > >> > > > Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 8:52 PM > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Dear all, > > >> > > > > > >> > > > It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' > > >> ones > > >> > (read > > >> > > > Shuddha, > > >> > > > Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the > > >> > current > > >> > > > debate over > > >> > > > the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, > > >> have > > >> > > > 'always'attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do > > >> not > > >> > > want > > >> > > > to blame them for > > >> > > > their political positions, but I would accuse them for their > > >> > > > shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive > > >> > > > contribution or > > >> > > > position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves > > >> > 'liberated' > > >> > > since > > >> > > > we > > >> > > > write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that > > >> > our > > >> > > > 'falsesense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our > > >> > handsome > > >> > > > salaries and > > >> > > > convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that > > >> a > > >> > > > sin. However, > > >> > > > I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' > > >> > approach. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not > > >> > > > articulate their > > >> > > > position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear > > >> sacredness. > > >> > > > Their belief > > >> > > > of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based > > >> > on > > >> > > a > > >> > > > reportappeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that > > >> they > > >> > > > believe what the > > >> > > > TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or > > >> > > economic > > >> > > > policiesetc. Shivam could have researched on the matter > > >> since > > >> > he > > >> > > > is a reporter > > >> > > > himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support > > >> > > extended > > >> > > > by the > > >> > > > Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting > > >> > > > interviewed in > > >> > > > the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every > > >> > > > newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes > > >> > interviews > > >> > > > of the > > >> > > > politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of > > >> the > > >> > > > Salwa Judum > > >> > > > infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at > > >> > regular > > >> > > > intervention > > >> > > > and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President > > K R > > >> > > > Narayanan on > > >> > > > the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in > > >> place > > >> > of the > > >> > > > customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, > > >> the > > >> > > > right-wingers > > >> > > > get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about > > >> the > > >> > > moderator > > >> > > > or > > >> > > > Shuddha himself? > > >> > > > > > >> > > > I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to > > >> the > > >> > US > > >> > > > administration that is waging war against mankind > > everywhere and > > >> > > > continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I > > >> do > > >> > > not > > >> > > > find any > > >> > > > fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact > > >> > > that > > >> > > > the US and > > >> > > > Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do > > >> > not > > >> > > > think the > > >> > > > readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault > > >> if > > >> > > > someone sees > > >> > > > the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I > > >> > > consider the > > >> > > > nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on > > >> > the > > >> > > > poor and > > >> > > > less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation > > >> > > > against the > > >> > > > policies and politics of the US. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Let me ask some simple questions: > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the > > >> > Congress?> > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr > > >> Singh > > >> > could go > > >> > > > ahead with > > >> > > > the Deal? > > >> > > > Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit > > >> > in > > >> > > > elections if > > >> > > > the Govt falls? > > >> > > > Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left > > >> oppose > > >> > or > > >> > > > supporteverything only on the basis of the position taken by > > >> > the > > >> > > BJP?> Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology > > >> of > > >> > > the > > >> > > > 'clash of > > >> > > > civilizations'? > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Regards, > > >> > > > Prakash > > >> > > > _________________________________________ > > >> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > >> > > with > > >> > > > subscribe in > > >> > > > the subject header. > > >> > > > To unsubscribe: > > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > >> > > > list > > >> > > > List archive: > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > _________________________________________ > > >> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > >> > > with > > >> > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > > > To unsubscribe: > > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > >> > > > list > > >> > > > List archive: > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > _________________________________________ > > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > >> > with > > >> > > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > >> > > list > > >> > > List archive: > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > _________________________________________ > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > >> with > > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > >> > list > > >> > List archive: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > >> list > > >> List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 15:53:23 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 03:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Ex Gov. S K Sinha on "Amarnath Shrine Board" Message-ID: <234000.526.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I am not posting this so as to enter into a discussion on the issue. It is being posted only to present the point of  view of one of the protagonists.   KK   http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jul/14inter1.htm   "PDP has a sinister agenda, says ex-JK governor" July 14, 2008 | 13:34 IST Jammu and Kashmir recently witnessed large-scale protests and violence by protestors, both for and against the land allotment to the Amarnath shrine board. The man who headed the?shrine board?is the former Governor of Jammu and Kashmir, Lieutenant General SK Sinha. The People's Democratic Party has a sinister agenda, Sinha tells Aasha Khosa.?   Q : You are being accused of having set Jammu & Kashmir on fire again. We haven't heard your side of the story ?   Before responding to these allegations, I would like to state some bare facts about the Amarnath shrine board. It was set up in 2000 on the basis of the recommendations of a judicial commission that inquired into the death of 250 pilgrims in an avalanche in 1996. I took over as its chairman in 2002. Two years later, I proposed to the government (led by Mufti Mohammed Sayeed) that the yatra be extended to two months and more facilities, like pre-fabricated toilets, be set up en route to the holy cave.   The reason for this was that it was a special year in the Hindu calendar when the month of shravan comes twice. My idea was to provide better facilities for the expected deluge of pilgrims and to create employment for the locals. I sent two letters to the chief minister over a span of two months. He did not reply.   Q : But the yatra was later extended to 45 days. How did that happen?   Only after people in Jammu agitated and four Congress ministers resigned in protest against the Mufti's adamant attitude and the Centre's intervention. We tried to set up state-of-the-art toilets and pre-fabricated huts along the route. Again the Mufti opposed. Finally, the matter was taken by the citizens to the court. The court order went in favour of the shrine board. Only after this did we set up some 2,000 toilets and pre-fabricated huts, which in fact came handy to provide shelter to some 3,000 people when earthquake struck Kashmir in 2005.   Q : But the board asked for a huge chunk of land. Wasn't the board under your leadership becoming too demanding?   I asked for the land in 2005 after we gave our pre-fabricated shelters to the quake victims in Tangdhar and Uri. We realised that dismantling of the huts costs a lot, so why not have temporary structures for the pilgrims. For over 100 years this land was used for the pilgrimage and the rest of the year it remained under snow. My proposal was sent for scrutiny to the empowered committee of the Supreme Court. In May 2008, I got a pleasant surprise from the government, which said the land would be transferred to the shrine board. The proposal was cleared unanimously by the cabinet. Interestingly, it was the PDP's law minister, Muzzaffar Hussain Baigh, and Forest Minister Qazi Mohammed Afzal, who cleared the proposal.   Q : Now Baigh is saying that the J&K government was threatened that if it does not clear the project, funds for the Mughal road will be stopped.   This is ridiculous. Anyone who knows the Indian system of governance would laugh at this. What powers does a governor have anyway? When Mufti Sayeed did not let the shrine board set up the facilities, what could I do? Also, this was happening at the fag end of my term, when I would hardly have any authority. The Mata Vaishno Devi board has been given land, Reliance has been given land for setting up a communication network, all government departments get land. Why single out the Amarnath shrine board?   Q : Why do you think your action created controversy and a violent reaction of the kind it did?   The reasons were building up. As chairman of the Amarnath shrine board, I had taken it upon myself to promote "Kashmiriyat," a tradition of religious tolerance and brotherhood that got eroded with the advent of militancy. I made it a practice to visit the dargah of Sheikhul Alam, the patron Saint of Kashmir at Charar-e-Sharif, after inaugurating the Amarnath pilgrimage. The shrine board organised a festival of Sufi music every year. We had the famous Pakistani band Junoon play sufi-pop music this year. Then the board set up a centre for Kashmiriyat at the University of Kashmir. This was deeply resented by the separatists and the militants, whose movement is based on hardline Islam.   Q : At what point did the simmering anger against your promotion of Kashmiriyat snowball into mass protests?   The separatists and militants were furious at the success of Junoon. They tried to scuttle the band's visit to Srinagar from Islamabad. They failed and gave a strike call in Kashmir on the day they were to perform. When the leader of Junoon told the 10,000-strong audience that his concert was a "musical jihad for peace,'' they went mad. They picked up the shrine board and the outgoing governor as convenient targets to whip up communal sentiments.   Q : But finally the mainstream parties like the PDP backed the movement against the shrine board. Why so?   Mufti Mohammad Sayeed always had his communal agenda. As separatists spread stories that the shrine board would settle Hindus on the land to change the demography of Kashmir, the PDP jumped into the agitation probably with an eye on the coming election. The NC (National Conference) opposed the land allocation but was more sober in its approach.   Q : How come Chief Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad too relented and withdrew the order finally?   Unlike the Mufti, Ghulam Nabi Azad is a really secular person. He had an impeccable record and never interfered in the functioning of the shrine board. On June 25, my last day as governor, he told me he would counter the propaganda. Probably he came under pressure. The PDP, I must put this on record, has sinister designs. In the name of healing touch, the PDP-led government granted subsidies to the families of the killed terrorists. Has it happened anywhere in the world? Do the families of the Naga insurgents, the Ulfa members or the Naxalites get benefits like this? Mufti openly propagated the idea of joint control of the Baglihar project with Pakistan. Then he endorsed Musharaf's proposal for joint control of Kashmir.   Q : What about New Delhi's role in making the J&K government surrender before the separatist propaganda?   New Delhi is always too busy to bother about places like Kashmir. They must realise that we have been able to control militancy in Kashmir but the mindset that is behind the separatist movement is intact. Then, unfortunately, instead of we countering this, out mainstream politicians get co-opted in their scheme of things. The government did not only bow to the demands of the separatists but also went overboard. The agitationists had only wanted the [land transfer] order to be scrapped but the government decided to wind up the shrine board. There should be a limit to appeasement. From asitredsalute at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 16:02:59 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:02:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Final List of Signatories against INDO-US nuclear deal Message-ID: Dear Friends this is the final list of signatories against INDO-US nuclear deal signed by mass movements,academicians,jounalists and eminent persons including Kuldeep Nayar,Justice Rajendra Sachar,Aruna Roy,Sandeep Pandey,Banwari Lal Sharma and others.This can be used for campaign against the deal and the media. With Regards Asit AN OPEN LETTER TO THE PRIME MINSTER OF INDIA TO SCRAP THE INDO US NUCLEAR DEAL To Shri Manmohan Singh Prime Minister Dear Prime Minister, We the undersigned demand scrapping of the Indo-US Nuclear Deal with immediate effect. The content of the Deal which is currently being negotiated between India and the US was the first laid out in the joint statement issued by the Prime Minister and the US President on July 18, 2005 from Washington DC and further reiterated on March 2, 2006 in another joint statement by them issued from New Delhi. The signing of the Henry Hyde Act on December 18, 2006 is logical interference of the content of the Act legally making India a junior ally of the US Imperialism confiscating and trunacating our hard earned sovereignty. We therefore demand that the Indo-US Nuclear Deal be scrapped given up with immediate effect and the ongoing talks between IAEA should be called off immediately. The Indo-US Nuclear Deal is patently anti-people, will make India a strategic ally of American Imperialism in South Asia to impose its hegemony over Asia. The Deal also negates the concrete achievements gained by the International and national peace movements for disarmament and Nuclear-free World. After the example of the ruthless genocide, devastation and occupation of Iraq before us, we feel that the Indo-US Nuclear Deal will become an instrument for ruthlessly imposing the neo-liberal economic agenda and pliant regimes over the impoverished people of the Third World and further tightening the hold through the Indo-US Nuclear Deal, US Imperialism will have a firm grip over the governments of the independent nation-states of India and Asia. This makes a mockery of the cherished values of equal and democratic world order and the aspirations of the national liberation struggles including the whole spirit of decolonization. The Indo-US Nuclear Deal is an outrageous instrument of recolonization of India and Third World. The Deal, as and when comes through will, grievously undermine the current global; regime of nuclear non-proliferation, as it is meant to make an unique exception in case of India, in gross violation of underlying principles of the International peace, workers, environment and women's movements. The fact that Pakistan has been brusquely refused a similar deal by the US in spite of persistent clamouring, and Iran is being demonstratively coerced to desist from developing its own nuclear power production allowed and encouraged under article IV of the NPT which further brings out graphically the abominable discriminatory nature of the Deal. The deal is likely to trigger a stepped up vertical and horizontal proliferations all over Asia. This goes against our commitment of Nuclear-free Asia and World. We totally reject the proposition that it will enhance India's energy security and, we categorically assert that nuclear power is prohibitively costly., therefore the Deal will distort India's energy options by diverting resource guzzling, and the intrinsically hazardous and potentially catastrophic, nuclear power at the cost of eco-friendly and many times financially cheaper renewable sources of energy. With the human development index of India and the Third World miserably low, we demand that instead of spending irrationally on nuclear power, expenditures on in health, education, food security, rural and urban employment be enhanced. We want to remind you that India as the leader of the Non- Aligned Movement and as vocal participant in various international forums including the UN, has always committed itself for a Nuclear-free World and abolition of the existing nuclear weapons. In the spirit of the above we want the Government of India to ban the entry of nuclear powered sub marines of the US and other major NATO countries. After six decades of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuclear tragedies, we demand that immediate steps to be taken for a Nuclear-free Asia and the world. The above Indo-US Nuclear Deal will further reinforce the unequal strategic relationship between the US and thereby would add momentum to the US imperialistic project for unfettered global dominance .We reject any ambitions of the Indian ruling classes to act as the a Big Brother in South Asia or to emerge as a global power basking in the reflected glory of global headman and goon. This will not only undermine India's position as a founding and leading member of the Non- Aligned Movement but will seriously undermine prestige of NAM as a whole; of meekly surrendering to the US Imperialism defying the democratic aspirations of the toiling masses of the Third World for a Nuclear-free, just and livable world. Kuldeep Nayyar Justice Rajendra Sachhar Aruna Roy (M.K.S.S. Rajasthan) Sandeep Pandey (Asha Parivar) Major General Sudhir Vombattere (Retd) Ajit Jha (People's Political Front) Banwari Lal Sharma ( Azadi Bachao Andolan) Lingraj (General Secretary, Samajwadi Jan Parishad) Anil Sadagopal (Educationalist Bhopal) Kavita Srivastava (PUCL Rajasthan) Ulka Mahajan (Saravahara Jan Andolan, Raigad, Maharastra) Anand Kumar (Professor, Center for Study of Social System,School of Social Science,JNU) Sanjay Mangal Gopal (NAPM) Pratibha Shinde ( Lok Sangharsha Morcha) Vijay Bhai ( Adivasi Mukti Sanghatan, M.P.) Rajendra Ravi (NAPM, Delhi) Ambarish Rai, (Lok Sangharsh Morcha) Savyasachi, (Lecturer, Dept of Sociology, Jamia Milia, New Delhi) Minakshi Arora (Editor, People's News Network) Ish Mishra (Reader, Hindu College, Delhi) Jayant Verma (Editor, Neetimarg, Jabalpur) Rakesh Rafiq (Yuva Bharat) Inder Singh (NHPM, Rajasthan) Gurdyal Singh Sheetal(NHCPM,Punjab) Prafulla Samantra ( Lokshakti Abhiyan,Orissa) Rajiv ( Yuva Bharat, Lucknow) Putul ( Yuva Bharat, Lucknow) Sawai Singh (Samagra Seva Sangh, Rajasthan) Sanjiv Sane ( Samajwadi Jan Parishad, Maharastra) Gajanan Khatu ( Lok Rajniti Munch, Maharastra) Vineet Kohli ( Research Scholar , Centre for Economic and Social Planning , JNU) Ajit Jha,Samajwadi Jan Parishad and NAPM Thomas Kochery,(President, National Fisherman's Forum and NAPM ) Dr John Dayal ,(President, All India Catholic Union) Feroze Mithiborewala,(Muslim Intellectual Forum) Maulwi Farooq,Jamat-E-Islami Hind Dr Zafurul Islam Khan,Editor-The Milli Gazette New Delhi Gopal Rai,Convenor, Teesra Swadhinta Sangram Dunu Roy,Hazards Centre, New Delhi Seela Manasweenee,Hazards Centre, New Delhi Subhash Lomte,(National Convener, National campaign Committee for Rural workers) Faisal Khan,Asha Parivar and NAPM Kavita Krishnan,Ex President, AISA, Editor Liberation Shailendar,Social Activist, Delhi Dhananjay Tripathi,Ex President, JNU Student's Union Vijay Pratap(Convener Lokayan) Babu Lal Sharma (Convenor, Global Gandhi Forum) Rakesh Bhatt (Coordinator, SADED/CSDS) Kiran Shaheen(Media and Social Activist) Chandrika(Editor-Dakhal Duniya web magazine) Prakash Kumar Ray (Film maker and Research Scholar/Film Studies/School of art & Aesthetic JNU) Jeet Bhattacharya (Research Scholar, Film Studies, School of art & Aesthetic JNU) Rishika Mehershi (Research Scholar, Performing Arts, School of art & Aesthetic JNU) Asit (Researcher and Social Activist) Kumar Sameer(Social Activist) Peeyush Pant (Editor-Lok Samvad) Susant Panigrahy,Social Activist Pune From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 19:40:03 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:40:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration In-Reply-To: <304254.16332.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <304254.16332.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6353c690807160710r13c0a0c5u1570658b33b28eaf@mail.gmail.com> Honestly, very well read people seem to behind this so called "International Kashmir Peace Conference"...lol God Help them. On 7/16/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > A "International Kashmir Peace Conference" was held Washington D.C, > 14th-15th July. It adopted the "Washington Declaration". > > The website of "Association of Humanitarian Lawyers", one of the sponsors > of the Conference, furnishes the text of the "Declaration" > > Point 8 in it reads "The Conference calls for protection of all minorities. > All the displaced persons including Kashmiri bandits should be facilitated > to return to their ancestral home." > > http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html > > Did not know that "bandits" had been displaced out of Kashmir. At least > they are being called 'displaced' and not 'migrants' > > KK > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 20:35:24 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:35:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amarnath land row: Jammu shuts down again In-Reply-To: <6353c690807160801q4f72b87dj7925ddd63e1c58ea@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690807160801q4f72b87dj7925ddd63e1c58ea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690807160805s568b3e75xecfd3b2ed636212e@mail.gmail.com> *Amarnath land row: Jammu shuts down again* **Wednesday, 16 July , 2008, 13:31 *Jammu:* A shutdown was observed in Jammu again on Wednesday after some Hindu groups, demanding that a controversial plot in the Kashmir valley be handed over to a temple trust, rejected Governor N N Vohra's call for a dialogue on the issue. An indefinite shutdown to protest the government move cancelling the land transfer to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB) was suspended last week. But once again on Wednesday, most of the shops, business establishments and educational institutions remained closed and traffic was off the roads in response to the "Jammu bandh (shutdown)" call by the Amarnath Yatra Sangarsh Samiti (AYSS). The AYSS is an umbrella group of 28 social and political outfits demanding the plot be returned to the SASB. The 40-hectare plot in a designated forest in north Kashmir's Baltal area was taken back by the state government July 1 after the May 26 of the State Cabinet was rescinded. Jammu and Kashmir was rocked by a series of violent protests over the controversial transfer order. The Muslim-dominated Kashmir valley opposed the move, forcing the government to revoke the deal. The cancellation angered some Hindu groups in Jammu who have been demanding that the land be given back to the shrine board for the facilities of thousands of pilgrims to the mountainside shrine in south Kashmir, housing a 'Shiva lingam' or a stalagmite structure. Activists of the AYSS demonstrated for over 10 days in Jammu until July 8, when the conglomerate declared it was suspending its protests for a week to allow the government to "rectify its mistake". Vohra had invited the parties, groups and people for a dialogue but could not get the agitators on the table. However, some of the political parties, the Congress, the National Conference and delegations of Gujjars and Chamber of Commerce and Industry, Jammu met him and had detailed discussions on the situation. In a message on Tuesday, Vohra said the shrine board would continue to play its statutory role with "zeal and dedication" and, as such there was no dilution in its "authority or role". But the agitators insisted that he should first restore the land to the shrine board, before asking them to sit across the table. "He must restore the land to shrine board, rest would follow," chairman of the AYSS told newsmen in Jammu. From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Jul 17 13:14:10 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:44:10 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to theirancestral home - Washington declaration In-Reply-To: <6353c690807160710r13c0a0c5u1570658b33b28eaf@mail.gmail.com> References: <304254.16332.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <6353c690807160710r13c0a0c5u1570658b33b28eaf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: So, now all the citizens can have a sigh of relief, that "human rights" organisation has concerns for BANDITS and not pandits. ? The citizens know now after sixty years of rule of one of the "oldest" party, that bandits are majority, not minority in hoardes of hangers on and sycophants in the party who do not mind "sacrifices" for sympathy votes when Rahul says, leaders have to take risk, if it is in the interest of the first family, it is national interest, any deal which offers good kickbacks, is good for first family, so national interest is family interest or is it vice versa.? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Aditya Raj Kaul Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 7:40 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to theirancestral home - Washington declaration To: sarai list > Honestly, very well read people seem to behind this so called > "InternationalKashmir Peace Conference"...lol > > God Help them. > > > On 7/16/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > A "International Kashmir Peace Conference" was held Washington D.C, > > 14th-15th July. It adopted the "Washington Declaration". > > > > The website of "Association of Humanitarian Lawyers", one of the > sponsors> of the Conference, furnishes the text of the "Declaration" > > > > Point 8 in it reads "The Conference calls for protection of all > minorities.> All the displaced persons including Kashmiri bandits > should be facilitated > > to return to their ancestral home." > > > > http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html > > > > Did not know that "bandits" had been displaced out of Kashmir. > At least > > they are being called 'displaced' and not 'migrants' > > > > KK > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From supreet.sethi at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 15:26:27 2008 From: supreet.sethi at gmail.com (s|s) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:26:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] BB, cracked and buried. What else will follow? Message-ID: April 2008: Express India: DoT said it was responsibility of domestic mobile service providers like Bharti, Vodafone and others to ensure that security system was in place before offering Blackberry e-mail and mobile messenger services. May 2008: The Examiner.com: In a fresh twist to the ongoing dispute between Research In Motion (RIM) and the government of India, RIM said that it is unable to provide access to the Indian government as it does not possess the key to the encrypted data. According to RIM, security design for enterprise customers is so designed that it is not possible for RIM or any third party to access encrypted information. The security design is modeled on a symmetric key system enabling the customers to create their own keys, which are not available to a third party. June 2008: Economic Times: In a complete about turn from its earlier stance, the department of telecom (DoT) on Wednesday said that there was no threat from Blackberry services and the government had no objection if an operator wanted to offer these services. The story started with possible use of blackberries by terrorist outfits. Followed by DoT becoming the blocker in the way of Tata Teleservices launching their blackberry service. DoT asked RIM for 'master' keys which will allow security agencies to read through messages and mails send by 4,00,000 blackberry services users. RIM puts empty hands on the table, there are no 'master keys' to this grand vault. Finally DoT announced, it does not see RIM blackberry as a threat to security. This episode being the first instance of visible intervention by government towards 'Cyber' surveillance. Implications are many fold. Another facet of the ongoing security versus privacy debate is "who can and who cannot" keep their data private. For the uninitiated RIM (Research in Motion) is a company which launched a protocol and a device called Blackberry few years back. Blackberry as a device with help of protocol, can provide end-to-end secure email and messaging services apart from normal cellular functions. Blackberry provides security by encrypting the data. It is relatively new for devices like mobile phones to do this. This aspect of Blackberry coupled with its looks helped it find ready acceptance in corporate board rooms and slowly gain visibility in Small office and Home office segment. Encryption converts meaningful text to gibberish which can only be decrypted by use of a key. The novel idea in blackberry is generation and usage of key by the device instead of being embedded by device manufacturer. The key used in case of blackberry is 256-bit. This key is used to transmit encrypted data over cellular lines in India to a server or group of servers run by RIM in Canada providing secure emails to its users. So as a representative of soverign of the land when DoT asked for the keys which are unique per device, it is exercising its right to intercept data passing from India into foreign land. RIM apparantly provides two kind of services. BIS to individuals and BES to enterprise users. RIM during negotiation announced that they 'may' give access to survillence agencies to snoop mails sent using BIS. Placing corporate users above law. Encryption or transfer to foreign lands is nothing new. Most portals which provide E-commerce are doing one or both. Is DoT going to go after them as well? Also DoTs assertion at using 40-bit encryption instead of 256 is interesting considering 10 years back, it would take 4 hours for a bunch of machines to break 40-bit keys. While we are at, we should also file away our locks, so that thieves have easier time getting into our houses. -- ~preet~ http://jpgmag.com/people/djinn From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Jul 17 17:02:56 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:32:56 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] BB, cracked and buried. What else will follow? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, let us get our basics right, whatever be the developments in science and technology, one thing is for sure, old sayings are out of knowledge and experience, the old sayings say 1. There is no lock without a key, or a lock which can not be opened. 2. Crime is always one step ahead of prevention. 3. Human greed is such that it can open any hidden treasure. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: s|s Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008 3:27 pm Subject: [Reader-list] BB, cracked and buried. What else will follow? To: reader-list at sarai.net > April 2008: > Express India: > DoT said it was responsibility of domestic mobile service > providers like > Bharti, Vodafone and others to ensure that security system was in > place before > offering Blackberry e-mail and mobile messenger services. > > May 2008: > The Examiner.com: > In a fresh twist to the ongoing dispute between Research In > Motion (RIM) and > the government of India, RIM said that it is unable to provide > access to the > Indian government as it does not possess the key to the encrypted > data. According > to RIM, security design for enterprise customers is so designed > that it is not > possible for RIM or any third party to access encrypted information. > The security > design is modeled on a symmetric key system enabling the > customers to > create their > own keys, which are not available to a third party. > > June 2008: > Economic Times: > In a complete about turn from its earlier stance, the department of > telecom (DoT) > on Wednesday said that there was no threat from Blackberry services > and the government > had no objection if an operator wanted to offer these > services. > The story started with possible use of blackberries by terrorist > outfits. Followed by DoT becoming the blocker in the way of Tata > Teleservices launching their blackberry service. DoT asked RIM for > 'master' keys which will allow security agencies to read through > messages and mails send by 4,00,000 blackberry services users. RIM > puts empty hands on the table, there are no 'master keys' to this > grand vault. Finally DoT announced, it does not see RIM blackberry as > a threat to security. This episode being the first instance of visible > intervention by government towards 'Cyber' surveillance. Implications > are many fold. > > Another facet of the ongoing security versus privacy debate is "who > can and who cannot" keep their data private. > > For the uninitiated RIM (Research in Motion) is a company which > launched a protocol and a device called Blackberry few years back. > Blackberry as a device with help of protocol, can provide end-to-end > secure email and messaging services apart from normal cellular > functions. > > Blackberry provides security by encrypting the data. It is relatively > new for devices like mobile phones to do this. This aspect of > Blackberry coupled with its looks helped it find ready acceptance in > corporate board rooms and slowly gain visibility in Small office and > Home office segment. Encryption converts meaningful text to gibberish > which can only be decrypted by use of a key. The novel idea in > blackberry is generation and usage of key by the device instead of > being embedded by device manufacturer. The key used in case of > blackberry is 256-bit. > > This key is used to transmit encrypted data over cellular lines in > India to a server or group of servers run by RIM in Canada providing > secure emails to its users. So as a representative of soverign of the > land when DoT asked for the keys which are unique per device, it is > exercising its right to intercept data passing from India into foreign > land. RIM apparantly provides two kind of services. BIS to individuals > and BES to enterprise users. RIM during negotiation announced that > they 'may' give access to survillence agencies to snoop mails sent > using BIS. Placing corporate users above law. > > > Encryption or transfer to foreign lands is nothing new. Most portals > which provide E-commerce are doing one or both. Is DoT going to go > after them as well? Also DoTs assertion at using 40-bit encryption > instead of 256 is interesting considering 10 years back, it would take > 4 hours for a bunch of machines to break 40-bit keys. While we are at, > we should also file away our locks, so that thieves have easier time > getting into our houses. > > > > -- > ~preet~ > http://jpgmag.com/people/djinn > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From the.solipsist at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 17:29:42 2008 From: the.solipsist at gmail.com (Pranesh Prakash) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:29:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] BB, cracked and buried. What else will follow? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4785f1e20807170459g40c9382ema4a10d25dd57ffcc@mail.gmail.com> In response to point 1 -> It is however impossible to get a locked message opened by the messenger (RIM) when the message has been locked by A, and the corresponding key is with B (and the system is set up with end-to-end encryption). While the lock can be opened, it cannot be opened by the messenger, since he doesn't have the key! So, is the government going to ban all forms of communication which it cannot snoop on? The logical extension of this would be to ban all cryptography in India. What will it ban next? PGPi (which allows you to encrypt e-mails)? E-mails (which play the same role as the messenger, RIM)? Languages for which there are no official translators? While this might sound absurd, I don't see how it is any more absurd than denying people the right to communicate privately. It is a slippery slope once one accepts the proposition that terrorists and child molesters necessitate governmental spying on all our communications. Bruce Schneier (on his website) and Cory Doctorow (in the Guardian) have both written extremely lucid articles defending the right to privacy which people who are interested could look up. Cheers, Pranesh On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 17:02, wrote: > Hi, > > let us get our basics right, whatever be the developments in science and > technology, one thing is for sure, old sayings are out of knowledge and > experience, the old sayings say > > 1. There is no lock without a key, or a lock which can not be opened. > > 2. Crime is always one step ahead of prevention. > > 3. Human greed is such that it can open any hidden treasure. > > > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: s|s > Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008 3:27 pm > Subject: [Reader-list] BB, cracked and buried. What else will follow? > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > April 2008: > > Express India: > > DoT said it was responsibility of domestic mobile service > > providers like > > Bharti, Vodafone and others to ensure that security system was in > > place before > > offering Blackberry e-mail and mobile messenger services. > > > > May 2008: > > The Examiner.com: > > In a fresh twist to the ongoing dispute between Research In > > Motion (RIM) and > > the government of India, RIM said that it is unable to provide > > access to the > > Indian government as it does not possess the key to the encrypted > > data. According > > to RIM, security design for enterprise customers is so designed > > that it is not > > possible for RIM or any third party to access encrypted > information. > > The security > > design is modeled on a symmetric key system enabling the > > customers to > > create their > > own keys, which are not available to a third party. > > > > June 2008: > > Economic Times: > > In a complete about turn from its earlier stance, the department of > > telecom (DoT) > > on Wednesday said that there was no threat from Blackberry services > > and the government > > had no objection if an operator wanted to offer these > > services. > > The story started with possible use of blackberries by terrorist > > outfits. Followed by DoT becoming the blocker in the way of Tata > > Teleservices launching their blackberry service. DoT asked RIM for > > 'master' keys which will allow security agencies to read through > > messages and mails send by 4,00,000 blackberry services users. RIM > > puts empty hands on the table, there are no 'master keys' to this > > grand vault. Finally DoT announced, it does not see RIM blackberry as > > a threat to security. This episode being the first instance of visible > > intervention by government towards 'Cyber' surveillance. Implications > > are many fold. > > > > Another facet of the ongoing security versus privacy debate is "who > > can and who cannot" keep their data private. > > > > For the uninitiated RIM (Research in Motion) is a company which > > launched a protocol and a device called Blackberry few years back. > > Blackberry as a device with help of protocol, can provide end-to-end > > secure email and messaging services apart from normal cellular > > functions. > > > > Blackberry provides security by encrypting the data. It is relatively > > new for devices like mobile phones to do this. This aspect of > > Blackberry coupled with its looks helped it find ready acceptance in > > corporate board rooms and slowly gain visibility in Small office and > > Home office segment. Encryption converts meaningful text to gibberish > > which can only be decrypted by use of a key. The novel idea in > > blackberry is generation and usage of key by the device instead of > > being embedded by device manufacturer. The key used in case of > > blackberry is 256-bit. > > > > This key is used to transmit encrypted data over cellular lines in > > India to a server or group of servers run by RIM in Canada providing > > secure emails to its users. So as a representative of soverign of the > > land when DoT asked for the keys which are unique per device, it is > > exercising its right to intercept data passing from India into foreign > > land. RIM apparantly provides two kind of services. BIS to individuals > > and BES to enterprise users. RIM during negotiation announced that > > they 'may' give access to survillence agencies to snoop mails sent > > using BIS. Placing corporate users above law. > > > > > > Encryption or transfer to foreign lands is nothing new. Most portals > > which provide E-commerce are doing one or both. Is DoT going to go > > after them as well? Also DoTs assertion at using 40-bit encryption > > instead of 256 is interesting considering 10 years back, it would take > > 4 hours for a bunch of machines to break 40-bit keys. While we are at, > > we should also file away our locks, so that thieves have easier time > > getting into our houses. > > > > > > > > -- > > ~preet~ > > http://jpgmag.com/people/djinn > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 17 17:44:14 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 05:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <487CA35F.20700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <970292.86984.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Tapas   Enjoyed reading your posting.   The philosophy and parameters (with examples) of 'new framework' for a 'technological civilization' is very ennobling and sincere towards finding a solution for the 'energy crunch'.   In this, one of the main problems perhaps is what you yourself have hinted at. One where those who 'do not have' aspire to 'have' all of that which the "haves have" and that are seen as the comforts and convieniences of 'technological advancement' that they currently find unaffordable.   As an example, the graduation from walking (as a neccessity and not for relaxation) to a bicycle to a moped to a scooter (or bullock cart and then tractor)  and finally a car is aspirational. With justifiable reasons. Endless number of other scenarios as examples.   It also has at  different levels of 'accquisitions' the 'status symbol superiority'  of one product over the other; 'dekha dekhi' (oneupmanship). Humans 'desire' and 'want' much more than what might simply fulfill their 'need'.   There are also the aspects of 'convieience' and 'comfort'. It might not be 'the Law' but a fair hypothesis would be that those most willing to 'give up' products of 'convienience' and 'comfort' are the ones for whom such products are affordable.   Those who can afford 'airconditioning' can speak about shutting it down and opening the windows to get fresh air. The ones trying to cool down under the hot air blast circulated by a 'fan' would prefer a 'cooler' and then a A/C.  Endless number of other scenarios as examples   In SARAI itself a few weeks back there was derision at the TATA NANO and the merits lauded of 'biking'. Would the person who can afford only a bicycle want to be able to buy a scooter (and balance spouse and children on it)? I think yes. Would he/she be satisfied with that? I think not. He/she would next aspire to own a NANO; an Airconditioned one. Why not?    "Biking" might be 'hot' in a cold Oslo and Helisinki but might get a 'cold' shoulder if offered as the choice in hot Ajmer and Ahmedabad.   What we also seem to disregard is that there is no limit to the instinct of humans to question, investigate, experiment, innovate, design and manufacture new products. Who is to decide that there should be a 'stop here, it is enough'? Dictate of the State?     One area where the "State" does need to "Dictate" (by common parliamentary approval) and at the very least to "Regulate" (by common parliamentary consent) is in rationalising both  the 'consumption heads of Energy' and the 'generating modes' of Energy. A lot can be achieved by  financial / taxation "carrots and sticks" especially in cities and larger towns.    - Shifting timings of work establishments to utilise 'daylight saving'. It kills me to acknowledge that Pakistan has taken a lead in this by adjusting their clocks for 'daylight saving'   - Limiting the work hours of 'retail establishments' to reduce evening/night Energy consumption.   - Mandatory 5 day work week for all (hmmmn what about housewives) to save "1 Energy day" and enable families to shop during daylight hours. 24x7 Process Industries are exempt from closure but the manpower has a staggered 5 day week.   - Convienient Public transportation. "Convienient" is the critical word. (what happens to the aspirational 'I want my own car'? Infrequent usage of personal transport perhaps)   - Incentivise 'free to harness' Energy sources like Solar, Hydel and Wind. (Specific problems associated with Solar and Hydel acknowledged.)      - etc ..... etc ... etc.   Developing a practicable Vision or Philosophy is not always the hinderance, but the "common parliamentary consent/approval".       Kshmendra     --- On Tue, 7/15/08, Tapas Ray wrote: From: Tapas Ray Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: "sarai list" Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 6:47 PM Partha, Although you were writing in response to Kshemendra's reply to Radhikarajen, I hope you won't mind if I butt in, because your post is on an issue I wrote about yesterday, and also earlier. Your question is straightforward, but I am afraid the answer cannot be simple or straightforward, and any solution to the problem cannot be a quick one. Not simple because it lies outside the framework within which your question has meaning. Not quick, because adopting a new framework is not something the world can do quickly. The situation we see today has not developed in a year or a decade. The way of thinking that has led to it, has matured over centuries. So, it wouldn't be reasonable to expect a solution that would work in a couple of years or a decade. The framework I am talking about is the "technological civilization" of the modern world. "Technological" here is broader than what we usually mean by technological, which is something that has to do with the practical application of scientific knowledge. Here it means a civilization of fixes. This is how it works. You encounter problem A, and you find a solution. You come up against another problem. So you find another fix. So on, ad infinitum. Your response to problems B, C, D, etc., go the same way. The problems are treated as discrete, and the solutions you look for are discrete. You may find links between C and D, and work out a solution that take care of both, but your overall approach is the above. Take an example. Air pollution is too bad in Delhi. So they got autorickshaws, taxis and buses to switch from diesel to LNG, and autos from two-stroke to four-stroke engines. Then researchers saw that pollutants A and B went down, but C and D went up. So the government has to look for another fix. Then a fix for the unintended consequences of that second fix, etc. At the same time, you notice that the ever-growing number of vehicles is canceling out your gains from all these fixes. So you switch to electric. Then you notice you need huge amounts of electricity to charge all those batteries. But oil, coal, hydel, etc. are scarce resources. You turn to nuclear power, which is fundamentally, by its very nature, an unsafe technology. You devise safety measures. Then, when you face new problems that you hadn't foreseen, you find more solutions. One cannot blame the technologists, because nobody can anticipate every new type of problem that may arise, or even every kind of failure your safety mechanisms may be susceptible to. In the meantime, the demand for power hasn't remained constant. You need more and more nuclear plants until other technologies, such as hydrogen, wind, and solar become economically viable on the scale we are talking about. That could take a long time. Even if it doesn't, once those are used on the scale we need, maybe earlier, you may find problems that you had not, or could not have anticipated. Etc. To find an answer to your question that goes beyond a fix-to-fix existence, we need to come out of this way of thinking, and adopt a new way, in which energy shortage would not be the problem. It is the way we think about comfort, necessity, etc. That would be the "problem" we need to "solve". If we had continued to beat the heat in the way our ancestors had learned to do from thousands of years of living in hot climates, we would have seen our relationship to the weather in a different way. Hot weather would not be a problem to be fixed or an enemy to be conquered with airconditioners, but something to be lived with as a normal part of life, and to accommodate ourselves within. That would not be difficult: over hundreds of thousands of years of evolution (from apes and earlier), the human body has constantly adapted itself to its habitat - even in extreme climates like the Sahara and the Arctic region. But by changing its habitat in fundamental ways over the last few centuries, it has interrupted that adaptive process and turned it in a new direction, away from harmony with our natural habitat. On the evolutionary time scale, this has happened what would probably be a few minutes ago or less on our human time scale. So it is not too late to turn back. As for the ways of keeping cool that people have learned over thousands of years, one is the simple way of the ancient Roman civilization. They would keep their windows closed during the day and open them wide in the evening. I have personally seen that it's very effective. But then, partly out of necessity, I live with heat, not eliminate it - a better word would be expel - from my life. And the Roman method is not the only one. Other methods have evolved in different regions and continents. Those are being used, as we speak, by the vast majority of the global population, which cannot afford airconditioners. If we were to start thinking in this way - I mean, look at our relationship with nature not as a matter of conquest or problem solving but as a matter of integration and harmony - the energy crunch would be a thing of the past. What I have said so far is nothing new, and many people have been thinking this way for a long time. But it's not individuals who count for such a fundamental change. It's the entire human civilization. Obviously, this cannot happen in a matter of years. Even if every human being were to start today, it would still take decades, maybe a century or more, to change the direction, given the momentum human civilization as a whole has picked up over centuries. But we need to start the process now, because every day lost is one more day in the wrong direction and a little more momentum in that direction. In practical terms, the immediate thing to do is to contain and then reduce levels of consumption, and at the same time bring about some kind of redistributive justice so that the poor, who have to live in harsh conditions, can get some degree of comfort. Apart from the moral and ethical side, this also has a practical side. If the poor do not see an improvement in their standard of living, which comes to at least some of them through the trickle-down effect, they will say, logically enough, that the new direction is not acceptable because it prevents them from even aspiring to even a small fraction of the comforts the rich have been enjoying for quite a while. That is what India and China have been saying when rich countries press for an across-the-board limit in greenhouse gas emissions. I know this is not a complete answer and there are many complexities of the issue that I haven't touched upon. I wish I could write more, but I really cannot spend more time over this. Maybe later. Tapas parthaekka at gmail.com wrote: > Hi, > > I think we forgot to look at another issue as well. > > With the growing requirement for power generation which is well below > par as well as the fact that the hydro power generation is facing > issues of lessened water flow, and solar and wind powered generation > not viable for a large volume, what are the alternatives India has to > generate power for a growing population - given the fact that we do > not have enough power for current requirement. > > With oil prices going the way they are, oil based generation does not > seem a sensible route either, as doesn't coal - both non sustainable > in any case. > > Doesn't seem to be much of an alternative barring the nuclear power route. > > Rgds, Partha > .............................................. > > On 7/14/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >> Dear Radhikarajen >> >> You are lecturing me on everything else but not addressing the simpler >> issues that would put things in perspective with regards to approaches to >> IAEA and subsequently the NSG. >> >> I repeat, going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand-alone issues and >> not connected with or to be clubbed with any "deal with the USA". If the USA >> helps us with IAEA and NSG, they are to be thanked. Thankfulness is not sale >> of "National Interest". >> >> The (relative) HONESTY or DISHONESTY of Manmohan Singh is also >> inconsequential to the much more important issue of negotiations with IAEA >> and NSG being satisfactorily concluded. >> >> Kshmendra >> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Thu Jul 17 18:42:00 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 18:42:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration In-Reply-To: <304254.16332.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <304254.16332.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807170612w3acd492du15b12c4b0f32bb9b@mail.gmail.com> While a typo can be ignored, the question is worth asking: what prevents pandits from being 'faciliated' to return? Militancy has declined, nobody is holding a gun to Pandits' temples and quita few happily (especially businessmen) are spending six months in the Valley and six in Delhi. But many. Why has the package of Rs. 16,000 crores been rejected? Do Pandits even want to reurn, considering 70% have sold their land back home? And why don't they want to return, considering they can buy land? Is it political reasons rather than safety? Is is that many non-Jammu migrants are well settled in Delhi, Pune, Bangalore, New York? Is it that returning would mean giving up the political uses of victimhood and let 'separatists' say, "Look, even the Pandits are back." I am not making these allegations but asking questions. Like all communities the Pandits are a divided community. Kshmendra Kaul does not represent them all. Everyone has different reasons and different circumstances. best shivam On 7/16/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > A "International Kashmir Peace Conference" was held Washington D.C, > 14th-15th July. It adopted the "Washington Declaration". > > The website of "Association of Humanitarian Lawyers", one of the sponsors > of the Conference, furnishes the text of the "Declaration" > > Point 8 in it reads "The Conference calls for protection of all minorities. > All the displaced persons including Kashmiri bandits should be facilitated > to return to their ancestral home." > > http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html > > Did not know that "bandits" had been displaced out of Kashmir. At least > they are being called 'displaced' and not 'migrants' > > KK > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ From delhi.yunus at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 18:46:56 2008 From: delhi.yunus at gmail.com (Syed Yunus) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 18:46:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] lost kids from from gorakh pur In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: apologies for cross posting: One of my Childline friend have forwarded me this- *please inform on the given numbers if you have any information about these kids.* Three children are missing from Rustampur, Gorakhpur. Their names are Ashirvad Tripathi, Siddharth Singh and Prashant Mishra. All three are residents of the same colony. Their photographs are as per attachment. FIR has been lodged with the local police. *contact address :* Parvati Nagar Colony,PO - Shivpuri New Colony, Near Azad ChowkRustampur, Gorakhpur Contact numbers are:0551-6800969, 09839331120, 09795122990, 09794073378 please see this post and forward to others. it might be helpful in relocating them. http://youthenrichment.blogspot.com/ thanks, Yunus ! From abasole at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 19:05:34 2008 From: abasole at gmail.com (Amit Basole) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 09:35:34 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <970292.86984.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <487CA35F.20700@gmail.com> <970292.86984.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8e2bace60807170635y5a2c0387n32febd2924ff4cfa@mail.gmail.com> The debate over consumption norms and whether "everyone" will be able to drive a car, cool off with a A/C, own a laptop and cell phone, and where the energy for all this will come from cannot be divorced from the political economy of development. The pressing question is not whether in some distant, or not so distant future, everyone can enjoy the same material comforts without eroding the basic conditions of our existence. That worry sounds (at least to me) like the worry of the already privileged who are concerned that as their consumption patterns get generalized, the very process of emulation and generalization will rob them of the life they have grown used to. Rather what to me is far more pressing is, in the present, what costs are winners of the development game, who are securing automobiles, A/Cs, and laptops, able to enforce on the losers? Who is bearing the costs of development, in what proportion? Nandigram, Plachimada, Kalinganagar, God knows how many Nandigrams in China, this long and unfortunate list provides the answer. And going further back into the history of the colonized nations as well as Western Europe, many more examples can be piled on. That previously oppressed groups can later be counted among the oppressors, that the person with a bicycle graduates to a scooter and then a car, does not detract from the continuity of the capitalist accumulation process itself. It will be a long time before the world runs out of the underclass that disproportionately bears the cost of development and during this time, "benefits" in the form of cars etc, will undoubtedly trickle down further to the hitherto underprivileged. So rather than debating the long-term sustainability of the present advanced industrial lifestyle, we should with all the resources at our command, be striving to expose its continued obscene present day costs. Incidentally, there is no doubt in my mind that it is unsustainable, but "proving" it is another matter, it involves making a claim about the future that makes one vulnerable to charges of pessimism and lack of faith in human ingenuity. This debate is unnecessary, the immense suffering of beings today weighs more heavily with me than the destruction of the entire human species a hundred years in the future. Apologies for the strident tone. It is not directed at any one individual, except perhaps my own self. Amit On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 8:14 AM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Tapas > > Enjoyed reading your posting. > > The philosophy and parameters (with examples) of 'new framework' for a > 'technological civilization' is very ennobling and sincere towards finding a > solution for the 'energy crunch'. > > In this, one of the main problems perhaps is what you yourself have hinted > at. One where those who 'do not have' aspire to 'have' all of that which the > "haves have" and that are seen as the comforts and convieniences of > 'technological advancement' that they currently find unaffordable. > > As an example, the graduation from walking (as a neccessity and not for > relaxation) to a bicycle to a moped to a scooter (or bullock cart and then > tractor) and finally a car is aspirational. With justifiable > reasons. Endless number of other scenarios as examples. > > It also has at different levels of 'accquisitions' the 'status symbol > superiority' of one product over the other; 'dekha dekhi' > (oneupmanship). Humans 'desire' and 'want' much more than what might simply > fulfill their 'need'. > > There are also the aspects of 'convieience' and 'comfort'. It might not be > 'the Law' but a fair hypothesis would be that those most willing to 'give > up' products of 'convienience' and 'comfort' are the ones for whom such > products are affordable. > > Those who can afford 'airconditioning' can speak about shutting it down and > opening the windows to get fresh air. The ones trying to cool down under the > hot air blast circulated by a 'fan' would prefer a 'cooler' and then a A/C. > Endless number of other scenarios as examples > > In SARAI itself a few weeks back there was derision at the TATA NANO and > the merits lauded of 'biking'. Would the person who can afford only a > bicycle want to be able to buy a scooter (and balance spouse and children on > it)? I think yes. Would he/she be satisfied with that? I think not. He/she > would next aspire to own a NANO; an Airconditioned one. Why not? > > "Biking" might be 'hot' in a cold Oslo and Helisinki but might get a 'cold' > shoulder if offered as the choice in hot Ajmer and Ahmedabad. > > What we also seem to disregard is that there is no limit to the instinct of > humans to question, investigate, experiment, innovate, design and > manufacture new products. Who is to decide that there should be a 'stop > here, it is enough'? Dictate of the State? > > One area where the "State" does need to "Dictate" (by common parliamentary > approval) and at the very least to "Regulate" (by common parliamentary > consent) is in rationalising both the 'consumption heads of Energy' and the > 'generating modes' of Energy. A lot can be achieved by financial / > taxation "carrots and sticks" especially in cities and larger towns. > > - Shifting timings of work establishments to utilise 'daylight saving'. It > kills me to acknowledge that Pakistan has taken a lead in this by adjusting > their clocks for 'daylight saving' > > - Limiting the work hours of 'retail establishments' to reduce > evening/night Energy consumption. > > - Mandatory 5 day work week for all (hmmmn what about housewives) to save > "1 Energy day" and enable families to shop during daylight hours. 24x7 > Process Industries are exempt from closure but the manpower has a staggered > 5 day week. > > - Convienient Public transportation. "Convienient" is the critical word. > (what happens to the aspirational 'I want my own car'? Infrequent usage of > personal transport perhaps) > > - Incentivise 'free to harness' Energy sources like Solar, Hydel and Wind. > (Specific problems associated with Solar and Hydel acknowledged.) > > - etc ..... etc ... etc. > > Developing a practicable Vision or Philosophy is not always the hinderance, > but the "common parliamentary consent/approval". > > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Tue, 7/15/08, Tapas Ray wrote: > > From: Tapas Ray > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > To: "sarai list" > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 6:47 PM > > Partha, > > Although you were writing in response to Kshemendra's reply to > Radhikarajen, I hope you won't mind if I butt in, because your post is > on an issue I wrote about yesterday, and also earlier. > > Your question is straightforward, but I am afraid the answer cannot be > simple or straightforward, and any solution to the problem cannot be a > quick one. Not simple because it lies outside the framework within which > your question has meaning. Not quick, because adopting a new framework > is not something the world can do quickly. The situation we see today > has not developed in a year or a decade. The way of thinking that has > led to it, has matured over centuries. So, it wouldn't be reasonable to > expect a solution that would work in a couple of years or a decade. > > The framework I am talking about is the "technological civilization" > of > the modern world. "Technological" here is broader than what we > usually > mean by technological, which is something that has to do with the > practical application of scientific knowledge. Here it means a > civilization of fixes. > > This is how it works. You encounter problem A, and you find a solution. > You come up against another problem. So you find another fix. So on, ad > infinitum. Your response to problems B, C, D, etc., go the same way. The > problems are treated as discrete, and the solutions you look for are > discrete. You may find links between C and D, and work out a solution > that take care of both, but your overall approach is the above. > > Take an example. Air pollution is too bad in Delhi. So they got > autorickshaws, taxis and buses to switch from diesel to LNG, and autos > from two-stroke to four-stroke engines. Then researchers saw that > pollutants A and B went down, but C and D went up. So the government has > to look for another fix. Then a fix for the unintended consequences of > that second fix, etc. > > At the same time, you notice that the ever-growing number of vehicles is > canceling out your gains from all these fixes. So you switch to > electric. Then you notice you need huge amounts of electricity to charge > all those batteries. But oil, coal, hydel, etc. are scarce resources. > You turn to nuclear power, which is fundamentally, by its very nature, > an unsafe technology. You devise safety measures. Then, when you face > new problems that you hadn't foreseen, you find more solutions. One > cannot blame the technologists, because nobody can anticipate every new > type of problem that may arise, or even every kind of failure your > safety mechanisms may be susceptible to. > > In the meantime, the demand for power hasn't remained constant. You need > more and more nuclear plants until other technologies, such as hydrogen, > wind, and solar become economically viable on the scale we are talking > about. That could take a long time. Even if it doesn't, once those are > used on the scale we need, maybe earlier, you may find problems that you > had not, or could not have anticipated. Etc. > > To find an answer to your question that goes beyond a fix-to-fix > existence, we need to come out of this way of thinking, and adopt a new > way, in which energy shortage would not be the problem. It is the way we > think about comfort, necessity, etc. That would be the "problem" we > need > to "solve". If we had continued to beat the heat in the way our > ancestors had learned to do from thousands of years of living in hot > climates, we would have seen our relationship to the weather in a > different way. Hot weather would not be a problem to be fixed or an > enemy to be conquered with airconditioners, but something to be lived > with as a normal part of life, and to accommodate ourselves within. > > That would not be difficult: over hundreds of thousands of years of > evolution (from apes and earlier), the human body has constantly adapted > itself to its habitat - even in extreme climates like the Sahara and the > Arctic region. But by changing its habitat in fundamental ways over the > last few centuries, it has interrupted that adaptive process and turned > it in a new direction, away from harmony with our natural habitat. On > the evolutionary time scale, this has happened what would probably be a > few minutes ago or less on our human time scale. So it is not too late > to turn back. > > As for the ways of keeping cool that people have learned over thousands > of years, one is the simple way of the ancient Roman civilization. They > would keep their windows closed during the day and open them wide in the > evening. I have personally seen that it's very effective. But then, > partly out of necessity, I live with heat, not eliminate it - a better > word would be expel - from my life. And the Roman method is not the only > one. Other methods have evolved in different regions and continents. > Those are being used, as we speak, by the vast majority of the global > population, which cannot afford airconditioners. > > If we were to start thinking in this way - I mean, look at our > relationship with nature not as a matter of conquest or problem solving > but as a matter of integration and harmony - the energy crunch would be > a thing of the past. > > What I have said so far is nothing new, and many people have been > thinking this way for a long time. But it's not individuals who count > for such a fundamental change. It's the entire human civilization. > Obviously, this cannot happen in a matter of years. Even if every human > being were to start today, it would still take decades, maybe a century > or more, to change the direction, given the momentum human civilization > as a whole has picked up over centuries. > > But we need to start the process now, because every day lost is one more > day in the wrong direction and a little more momentum in that direction. > In practical terms, the immediate thing to do is to contain and then > reduce levels of consumption, and at the same time bring about some kind > of redistributive justice so that the poor, who have to live in harsh > conditions, can get some degree of comfort. Apart from the moral and > ethical side, this also has a practical side. > > If the poor do not see an improvement in their standard of living, which > comes to at least some of them through the trickle-down effect, they > will say, logically enough, that the new direction is not acceptable > because it prevents them from even aspiring to even a small fraction of > the comforts the rich have been enjoying for quite a while. That is what > India and China have been saying when rich countries press for an > across-the-board limit in greenhouse gas emissions. > > I know this is not a complete answer and there are many complexities of > the issue that I haven't touched upon. I wish I could write more, but > I really cannot spend more time over this. Maybe later. > > Tapas > > > > > > > parthaekka at gmail.com wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I think we forgot to look at another issue as well. > > > > With the growing requirement for power generation which is well below > > par as well as the fact that the hydro power generation is facing > > issues of lessened water flow, and solar and wind powered generation > > not viable for a large volume, what are the alternatives India has to > > generate power for a growing population - given the fact that we do > > not have enough power for current requirement. > > > > With oil prices going the way they are, oil based generation does not > > seem a sensible route either, as doesn't coal - both non sustainable > > in any case. > > > > Doesn't seem to be much of an alternative barring the nuclear power > route. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > .............................................. > > > > On 7/14/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > >> Dear Radhikarajen > >> > >> You are lecturing me on everything else but not addressing the simpler > >> issues that would put things in perspective with regards to approaches > to > >> IAEA and subsequently the NSG. > >> > >> I repeat, going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand-alone > issues and > >> not connected with or to be clubbed with any "deal with the > USA". If the USA > >> helps us with IAEA and NSG, they are to be thanked. Thankfulness is > not sale > >> of "National Interest". > >> > >> The (relative) HONESTY or DISHONESTY of Manmohan Singh is also > >> inconsequential to the much more important issue of negotiations with > IAEA > >> and NSG being satisfactorily concluded. > >> > >> Kshmendra > >> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Amit Basole Department of Economics Thompson Hall University of Massachusetts Amherst, MA 01003 Phone: 413-665-2463 http://www.people.umass.edu/abasole/ blog: http://www.mehr-e-niimroz.org/ From patrice at xs4all.nl Thu Jul 17 19:49:14 2008 From: patrice at xs4all.nl (Patrice Riemens) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:19:14 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Reader-list] BB, cracked and buried. What else will follow? Message-ID: <16616.82.73.9.6.1216304354.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> My understanding is that, at least in the 'dominant North', govts have largely abandonned attempts to restrict the 'right to encrypt' (save for provisions to retain encrypted messgs on the record far longer than ordinary ones, in the somewaht vaporous hope to decrypt them in future, when the crypto has become crackable), in order to clamp down on the 'right to decrypt' (DRM devices, govt communications etc). Possibly India is trailing behind here? Cheers, patrizo and Diiiinooos! > In response to point 1 -> It is however impossible to get a locked message > opened by the messenger (RIM) when the message has been locked by A, and > the > corresponding key is with B (and the system is set up with end-to-end > encryption). While the lock can be opened, it cannot be opened by the > messenger, since he doesn't have the key! So, is the government going to > ban all forms of communication which it cannot snoop on? The logical > extension of this would be to ban all cryptography in India. What will it > ban next? PGPi (which allows you to encrypt e-mails)? E-mails (which play > the same role as the messenger, RIM)? Languages for which there are no > official translators? While this might sound absurd, I don't see how it > is > any more absurd than denying people the right to communicate privately. > It > is a slippery slope once one accepts the proposition that terrorists and > child molesters necessitate governmental spying on all our communications. > Bruce Schneier (on his website) and Cory Doctorow (in the Guardian) have > both written extremely lucid articles defending the right to privacy which > people who are interested could look up. > > Cheers, > Pranesh > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 17:02, wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> let us get our basics right, whatever be the developments in science >> and >> technology, one thing is for sure, old sayings are out of knowledge and >> experience, the old sayings say >> >> 1. There is no lock without a key, or a lock which can not be opened. >> >> 2. Crime is always one step ahead of prevention. >> >> 3. Human greed is such that it can open any hidden treasure. >> >> >> >> Regards. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: s|s >> Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008 3:27 pm >> Subject: [Reader-list] BB, cracked and buried. What else will follow? >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> >> > April 2008: >> > Express India: >> > DoT said it was responsibility of domestic mobile service >> > providers like >> > Bharti, Vodafone and others to ensure that security system was >> in >> > place before >> > offering Blackberry e-mail and mobile messenger services. >> > >> > May 2008: >> > The Examiner.com: >> > In a fresh twist to the ongoing dispute between Research In >> > Motion (RIM) and >> > the government of India, RIM said that it is unable to provide >> > access to the >> > Indian government as it does not possess the key to the >> encrypted >> > data. According >> > to RIM, security design for enterprise customers is so designed >> > that it is not >> > possible for RIM or any third party to access encrypted >> information. >> > The security >> > design is modeled on a symmetric key system enabling the >> > customers to >> > create their >> > own keys, which are not available to a third party. >> > >> > June 2008: >> > Economic Times: >> > In a complete about turn from its earlier stance, the department >> of >> > telecom (DoT) >> > on Wednesday said that there was no threat from Blackberry >> services >> > and the government >> > had no objection if an operator wanted to offer these >> > services. >> > The story started with possible use of blackberries by terrorist >> > outfits. Followed by DoT becoming the blocker in the way of Tata >> > Teleservices launching their blackberry service. DoT asked RIM for >> > 'master' keys which will allow security agencies to read through >> > messages and mails send by 4,00,000 blackberry services users. RIM >> > puts empty hands on the table, there are no 'master keys' to this >> > grand vault. Finally DoT announced, it does not see RIM blackberry as >> > a threat to security. This episode being the first instance of visible >> > intervention by government towards 'Cyber' surveillance. Implications >> > are many fold. >> > >> > Another facet of the ongoing security versus privacy debate is "who >> > can and who cannot" keep their data private. >> > >> > For the uninitiated RIM (Research in Motion) is a company which >> > launched a protocol and a device called Blackberry few years back. >> > Blackberry as a device with help of protocol, can provide end-to-end >> > secure email and messaging services apart from normal cellular >> > functions. >> > >> > Blackberry provides security by encrypting the data. It is relatively >> > new for devices like mobile phones to do this. This aspect of >> > Blackberry coupled with its looks helped it find ready acceptance in >> > corporate board rooms and slowly gain visibility in Small office and >> > Home office segment. Encryption converts meaningful text to gibberish >> > which can only be decrypted by use of a key. The novel idea in >> > blackberry is generation and usage of key by the device instead of >> > being embedded by device manufacturer. The key used in case of >> > blackberry is 256-bit. >> > >> > This key is used to transmit encrypted data over cellular lines in >> > India to a server or group of servers run by RIM in Canada providing >> > secure emails to its users. So as a representative of soverign of the >> > land when DoT asked for the keys which are unique per device, it is >> > exercising its right to intercept data passing from India into foreign >> > land. RIM apparantly provides two kind of services. BIS to individuals >> > and BES to enterprise users. RIM during negotiation announced that >> > they 'may' give access to survillence agencies to snoop mails sent >> > using BIS. Placing corporate users above law. >> > >> > >> > Encryption or transfer to foreign lands is nothing new. Most portals >> > which provide E-commerce are doing one or both. Is DoT going to go >> > after them as well? Also DoTs assertion at using 40-bit encryption >> > instead of 256 is interesting considering 10 years back, it would take >> > 4 hours for a bunch of machines to break 40-bit keys. While we are at, >> > we should also file away our locks, so that thieves have easier time >> > getting into our houses. >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > ~preet~ >> > http://jpgmag.com/people/djinn >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> > list >> > List archive: >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 17 20:03:51 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 07:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <8e2bace60807170635y5a2c0387n32febd2924ff4cfa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <701536.79761.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Amit   You did not direct your response at any particular individual.   That understood - I was not talking about the 'politics' of consumption but about the 'aspirational' aspect of consumption.   That 'aspirational' aspect of consumption is the strongest and most fervent  amongst those very sections of the society whom you have referred to as 'losers' in the 'development game'. It is justified because in their case the 'aspiring', to start with and through many progessively higher levels of consumption is need-based for basic convienience and comfort. If that is to be called 'continutity of the capitalist accumulation process', so be it.   The earlier Communist Russia and subsequently China, at some stage 'niched' for attention and encouragement that very human desire of 'capitalist accumulation' through the route of Personal Profit. The motive of course was not to better the lot of the Individual but that of the State.      No arguing (from me) over the need to rectify the situation where a disproportionate proportion of the "costs" is being borne by the 'losers' in the 'development game'.   I only have an issue about the "striving to expose its continued obscene present day costs". I have an issue with "expose". Individuals and Organisations seem to be doing the 'exposing' day in and day out. Words, Words, Words.Yet, each one is indulging 'day in and day out' in using the products of that very 'development game' where the 'losers' bear a disproportionate proportion of the costs. It is not an accusation. It is an acknowledgement of helplessness. My own included.   Kshmendra    --- On Thu, 7/17/08, Amit Basole wrote: From: Amit Basole Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "sarai list" Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 7:05 PM The debate over consumption norms and whether "everyone" will be able to drive a car, cool off with a A/C, own a laptop and cell phone, and where the energy for all this will come from cannot be divorced from the political economy of development. The pressing question is not whether in some distant, or not so distant future, everyone can enjoy the same material comforts without eroding the basic conditions of our existence. That worry sounds (at least to me) like the worry of the already privileged who are concerned that as their consumption patterns get generalized, the very process of emulation and generalization will rob them of the life they have grown used to. Rather what to me is far more pressing is, in the present, what costs are winners of the development game, who are securing automobiles, A/Cs, and laptops, able to enforce on the losers?  Who is bearing the costs of development, in what proportion? Nandigram, Plachimada, Kalinganagar, God knows how many Nandigrams in China, this long and unfortunate list provides the answer. And going further back into the history of the colonized nations as well as Western Europe, many more examples can be piled on. That previously oppressed groups can later be counted among the oppressors, that the person with a bicycle graduates to a scooter and then a car, does not detract from the continuity of the capitalist accumulation process itself. It will be a long time before the world runs out of the underclass that disproportionately bears the cost of development and during this time, "benefits" in the form of cars etc, will undoubtedly trickle down further to the hitherto underprivileged. So rather than debating the long-term sustainability of the present advanced industrial lifestyle, we should with all the resources at our command, be striving to expose its continued obscene present day costs. Incidentally, there is no doubt in my mind that it is unsustainable, but "proving" it is another matter, it involves making a claim about the future that makes one vulnerable to charges of pessimism and lack of faith in human ingenuity. This debate is unnecessary, the immense suffering of beings today weighs more heavily with me than the destruction of the entire human species a hundred years in the future. Apologies for the strident tone. It is not directed at any one individual, except perhaps my own self. Amit On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 8:14 AM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: Dear Tapas   Enjoyed reading your posting.   The philosophy and parameters (with examples) of 'new framework' for a 'technological civilization' is very ennobling and sincere towards finding a solution for the 'energy crunch'.   In this, one of the main problems perhaps is what you yourself have hinted at. One where those who 'do not have' aspire to 'have' all of that which the "haves have" and that are seen as the comforts and convieniences of 'technological advancement' that they currently find unaffordable.   As an example, the graduation from walking (as a neccessity and not for relaxation) to a bicycle to a moped to a scooter (or bullock cart and then tractor)  and finally a car is aspirational. With justifiable reasons. Endless number of other scenarios as examples.   It also has at  different levels of 'accquisitions' the 'status symbol superiority'  of one product over the other; 'dekha dekhi' (oneupmanship). Humans 'desire' and 'want' much more than what might simply fulfill their 'need'.   There are also the aspects of 'convieience' and 'comfort'. It might not be 'the Law' but a fair hypothesis would be that those most willing to 'give up' products of 'convienience' and 'comfort' are the ones for whom such products are affordable.   Those who can afford 'airconditioning' can speak about shutting it down and opening the windows to get fresh air. The ones trying to cool down under the hot air blast circulated by a 'fan' would prefer a 'cooler' and then a A/C.  Endless number of other scenarios as examples   In SARAI itself a few weeks back there was derision at the TATA NANO and the merits lauded of 'biking'. Would the person who can afford only a bicycle want to be able to buy a scooter (and balance spouse and children on it)? I think yes. Would he/she be satisfied with that? I think not. He/she would next aspire to own a NANO; an Airconditioned one. Why not?    "Biking" might be 'hot' in a cold Oslo and Helisinki but might get a 'cold' shoulder if offered as the choice in hot Ajmer and Ahmedabad.   What we also seem to disregard is that there is no limit to the instinct of humans to question, investigate, experiment, innovate, design and manufacture new products. Who is to decide that there should be a 'stop here, it is enough'? Dictate of the State?     One area where the "State" does need to "Dictate" (by common parliamentary approval) and at the very least to "Regulate" (by common parliamentary consent) is in rationalising both  the 'consumption heads of Energy' and the 'generating modes' of Energy. A lot can be achieved by  financial / taxation "carrots and sticks" especially in cities and larger towns.    - Shifting timings of work establishments to utilise 'daylight saving'. It kills me to acknowledge that Pakistan has taken a lead in this by adjusting their clocks for 'daylight saving'   - Limiting the work hours of 'retail establishments' to reduce evening/night Energy consumption.   - Mandatory 5 day work week for all (hmmmn what about housewives) to save "1 Energy day" and enable families to shop during daylight hours. 24x7 Process Industries are exempt from closure but the manpower has a staggered 5 day week.   - Convienient Public transportation. "Convienient" is the critical word. (what happens to the aspirational 'I want my own car'? Infrequent usage of personal transport perhaps)   - Incentivise 'free to harness' Energy sources like Solar, Hydel and Wind. (Specific problems associated with Solar and Hydel acknowledged.)      - etc ..... etc ... etc.   Developing a practicable Vision or Philosophy is not always the hinderance, but the "common parliamentary consent/approval".       Kshmendra     --- On Tue, 7/15/08, Tapas Ray wrote: From: Tapas Ray Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: "sarai list" Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 6:47 PM Partha, Although you were writing in response to Kshemendra's reply to Radhikarajen, I hope you won't mind if I butt in, because your post is on an issue I wrote about yesterday, and also earlier. Your question is straightforward, but I am afraid the answer cannot be simple or straightforward, and any solution to the problem cannot be a quick one. Not simple because it lies outside the framework within which your question has meaning. Not quick, because adopting a new framework is not something the world can do quickly. The situation we see today has not developed in a year or a decade. The way of thinking that has led to it, has matured over centuries. So, it wouldn't be reasonable to expect a solution that would work in a couple of years or a decade. The framework I am talking about is the "technological civilization" of the modern world. "Technological" here is broader than what we usually mean by technological, which is something that has to do with the practical application of scientific knowledge. Here it means a civilization of fixes. This is how it works. You encounter problem A, and you find a solution. You come up against another problem. So you find another fix. So on, ad infinitum. Your response to problems B, C, D, etc., go the same way. The problems are treated as discrete, and the solutions you look for are discrete. You may find links between C and D, and work out a solution that take care of both, but your overall approach is the above. Take an example. Air pollution is too bad in Delhi. So they got autorickshaws, taxis and buses to switch from diesel to LNG, and autos from two-stroke to four-stroke engines. Then researchers saw that pollutants A and B went down, but C and D went up. So the government has to look for another fix. Then a fix for the unintended consequences of that second fix, etc. At the same time, you notice that the ever-growing number of vehicles is canceling out your gains from all these fixes. So you switch to electric. Then you notice you need huge amounts of electricity to charge all those batteries. But oil, coal, hydel, etc. are scarce resources. You turn to nuclear power, which is fundamentally, by its very nature, an unsafe technology. You devise safety measures. Then, when you face new problems that you hadn't foreseen, you find more solutions. One cannot blame the technologists, because nobody can anticipate every new type of problem that may arise, or even every kind of failure your safety mechanisms may be susceptible to. In the meantime, the demand for power hasn't remained constant. You need more and more nuclear plants until other technologies, such as hydrogen, wind, and solar become economically viable on the scale we are talking about. That could take a long time. Even if it doesn't, once those are used on the scale we need, maybe earlier, you may find problems that you had not, or could not have anticipated. Etc. To find an answer to your question that goes beyond a fix-to-fix existence, we need to come out of this way of thinking, and adopt a new way, in which energy shortage would not be the problem. It is the way we think about comfort, necessity, etc. That would be the "problem" we need to "solve". If we had continued to beat the heat in the way our ancestors had learned to do from thousands of years of living in hot climates, we would have seen our relationship to the weather in a different way. Hot weather would not be a problem to be fixed or an enemy to be conquered with airconditioners, but something to be lived with as a normal part of life, and to accommodate ourselves within. That would not be difficult: over hundreds of thousands of years of evolution (from apes and earlier), the human body has constantly adapted itself to its habitat - even in extreme climates like the Sahara and the Arctic region. But by changing its habitat in fundamental ways over the last few centuries, it has interrupted that adaptive process and turned it in a new direction, away from harmony with our natural habitat. On the evolutionary time scale, this has happened what would probably be a few minutes ago or less on our human time scale. So it is not too late to turn back. As for the ways of keeping cool that people have learned over thousands of years, one is the simple way of the ancient Roman civilization. They would keep their windows closed during the day and open them wide in the evening. I have personally seen that it's very effective. But then, partly out of necessity, I live with heat, not eliminate it - a better word would be expel - from my life. And the Roman method is not the only one. Other methods have evolved in different regions and continents. Those are being used, as we speak, by the vast majority of the global population, which cannot afford airconditioners. If we were to start thinking in this way - I mean, look at our relationship with nature not as a matter of conquest or problem solving but as a matter of integration and harmony - the energy crunch would be a thing of the past. What I have said so far is nothing new, and many people have been thinking this way for a long time. But it's not individuals who count for such a fundamental change. It's the entire human civilization. Obviously, this cannot happen in a matter of years. Even if every human being were to start today, it would still take decades, maybe a century or more, to change the direction, given the momentum human civilization as a whole has picked up over centuries. But we need to start the process now, because every day lost is one more day in the wrong direction and a little more momentum in that direction. In practical terms, the immediate thing to do is to contain and then reduce levels of consumption, and at the same time bring about some kind of redistributive justice so that the poor, who have to live in harsh conditions, can get some degree of comfort. Apart from the moral and ethical side, this also has a practical side. If the poor do not see an improvement in their standard of living, which comes to at least some of them through the trickle-down effect, they will say, logically enough, that the new direction is not acceptable because it prevents them from even aspiring to even a small fraction of the comforts the rich have been enjoying for quite a while. That is what India and China have been saying when rich countries press for an across-the-board limit in greenhouse gas emissions. I know this is not a complete answer and there are many complexities of the issue that I haven't touched upon. I wish I could write more, but I really cannot spend more time over this. Maybe later. Tapas parthaekka at gmail.com wrote: > Hi, > > I think we forgot to look at another issue as well. > > With the growing requirement for power generation which is well below > par as well as the fact that the hydro power generation is facing > issues of lessened water flow, and solar and wind powered generation > not viable for a large volume, what are the alternatives India has to > generate power for a growing population - given the fact that we do > not have enough power for current requirement. > > With oil prices going the way they are, oil based generation does not > seem a sensible route either, as doesn't coal - both non sustainable > in any case. > > Doesn't seem to be much of an alternative barring the nuclear power route. > > Rgds, Partha > .............................................. > > On 7/14/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >> Dear Radhikarajen >> >> You are lecturing me on everything else but not addressing the simpler >> issues that would put things in perspective with regards to approaches to >> IAEA and subsequently the NSG. >> >> I repeat, going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand-alone issues and >> not connected with or to be clubbed with any "deal with the USA". If the USA >> helps us with IAEA and NSG, they are to be thanked. Thankfulness is not sale >> of "National Interest". >> >> The (relative) HONESTY or DISHONESTY of Manmohan Singh is also >> inconsequential to the much more important issue of negotiations with IAEA >> and NSG being satisfactorily concluded. >> >> Kshmendra >> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: -- Amit Basole Department of Economics Thompson Hall University of Massachusetts Amherst, MA 01003 Phone: 413-665-2463 http://www.people.umass.edu/abasole/ blog: http://www.mehr-e-niimroz.org/ From image.science at donau-uni.ac.at Thu Jul 17 20:05:03 2008 From: image.science at donau-uni.ac.at (Image Science) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:35:03 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] GAZING INTO THE 21st CENTURY Message-ID: <487F74B70200007D000061D2@gwgwia.donau-uni.ac.at> GAZING INTO THE 21st CENTURY Second international conference on Image Science in Goettweig October 16th -18th 2008 www.donau-uni.ac.at/dis Never before has the world of images changed so fast and the way images are produced transformed so drastically as in recent times. Second Life, Micromovies, Flickr, Virtual Reality, YouTube, Visual Music, Scientific Visualisation, Google Earth etc. are keywords standing for a multitude of new possibilities for individual producing, projecting and distributing of visual material. The images’ historical development between innovation, reflection and iconoclasm reaches a new level of global complexity in the 21st century. These transformations have hit society to a large extent unprepared. Nevertheless we have to recognize that we will not be able to handle the knowledge burst of our time without further development of new forms of visualization and “orders of visibility”. What inspiration do these new worlds of images gain from art? What influence does the medium have on the iconic character of the image? What chances and challenges do image dealers and museums face with the “liquidity” of the image? Together with international colleagues from science and art and keynotes by Felice FRANKEL (Harvard University, MIT), Barbara STAFFORD (Chicago) and Peter WEIBEL (ZKM) the conference will discuss the inventory, classification and historiography of the recent worlds of images concerning the worlds of art, popular culture and science. The lectures and discussions will cover the following topics: * NEW IMAGE FORMS AND TECHNIQUES * NEW STRATEGIES IN VISUAL ARGUMENTATION * NEW PRACTICES OF IMAGE TRANSFER Lectures among others by: Prof. Dr. Marie-Luise ANGERER, KHM; Dr. Elize BISANZ, University Lueneburg; Prof. Dr. Oliver GRAU, Danube University; Dr. Stefan HEIDENREICH, Humboldt-University Berlin; Mag. Jan HENSELDER, Berlin; Dr. Susanne HOLSCHBACH, HGB Leipzig; Dr. Harald KRAEMER, University Bern; Prof. Dr. Ann-Sophie LEHMANN, University Utrecht; Mag. Katja MAYER, University Vienna; Prof. Michael NAIMARK, University of Southern California; Michael NAIJAR, Berlin; Tim Otto ROTH, Koeln; Susanne SCHUMACHER MA, University Zuerich; Dr. David STEINMAN, University of Toronto; Dr. Dolores STEINMAN, University of Toronto; Prof. Dr. Nicolay VAN DER MEULEN, University Basel; Dr. Ingeborg REICHLE, BBAW Berlin; PD Dr. Martin SCHULZ, HfG Karlsruhe. At the same time an exhibition of scholarly POSTERS chosen by a jury from the international call with applicants from 19 countries is taking place at the DIS. Information and registration: http://www.donau-uni.ac.at/dis/goettweig2008 * * * The DEPARTMENT FOR IMAGE SCIENCE is situated in the Goettweig Monastery in the UNESCO World Heritage Wachau near Vienna. * * * ADVISORY BOARD MEMBERS of the Department for Image Science (DIS) * www.donau-uni.ac.at/dbw * Mag. Carl AIGNER (St. Poelten), Prof. Dr. Brigitte FELDERER (Vienna), Prof. Dr. Felice FRANKEL (Boston), Dr. Harald KRAEMER (Bern), Prof. Dr. Goetz POCHAT (Graz), Prof. Dr. Wolf SINGER (Frankfurt), Prof. Dr. Christa SOMMERER (Linz); Prof. Dr. Wolfgang WELSCH (Jena) From tapasrayx at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 20:47:53 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:17:53 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <701536.79761.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <701536.79761.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <487F62A1.9070307@gmail.com> Thanks, Kshemendra. Interesting points. Amit's too. I feel like jumping in, but can't. Will join in, maybe two or three wekks later, if this sub-thread is still live. Tapas Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Amit > > You did not direct your response at any particular individual. > > From: Amit Basole > The debate over consumption norms and whether "everyone" will be able to drive a car, cool off with a A/C, own a laptop and cell phone, and where the energy for all this will come from cannot be divorced from the political economy of development. The pressing question is not whether in some distant, or not so distant future, everyone can enjoy the same material comforts without eroding the basic conditions of our existence. That worry sounds (at least to me) like the worry of the already privileged who are concerned that as their consumption patterns get generalized, the very process of emulation and generalization will rob them of the life they have grown used to. > On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 8:14 AM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Tapas > > Enjoyed reading your posting. > > The philosophy and parameters (with examples) of 'new framework' for a 'technological civilization' is very ennobling and sincere towards finding a solution for the 'energy crunch'. > > In this, one of the main problems perhaps is what you yourself have hinted at. One where those who 'do not have' aspire to 'have' all of that which the "haves have" and that are seen as the comforts and convieniences of 'technological advancement' that they currently find unaffordable. > > As an example, the graduation from walking (as a neccessity and not for relaxation) to a bicycle to a moped to a scooter (or bullock cart and then tractor) and finally a car is aspirational. With justifiable reasons. Endless number of other scenarios as examples. > > It also has at different levels of 'accquisitions' the 'status symbol superiority' of one product over the other; 'dekha dekhi' (oneupmanship). Humans 'desire' and 'want' much more than what might simply fulfill their 'need'. > > There are also the aspects of 'convieience' and 'comfort'. It might not be 'the Law' but a fair hypothesis would be that those most willing to 'give up' products of 'convienience' and 'comfort' are the ones for whom such products are affordable. > > Those who can afford 'airconditioning' can speak about shutting it down and opening the windows to get fresh air. The ones trying to cool down under the hot air blast circulated by a 'fan' would prefer a 'cooler' and then a A/C. Endless number of other scenarios as examples > > In SARAI itself a few weeks back there was derision at the TATA NANO and the merits lauded of 'biking'. Would the person who can afford only a bicycle want to be able to buy a scooter (and balance spouse and children on it)? I think yes. Would he/she be satisfied with that? I think not. He/she would next aspire to own a NANO; an Airconditioned one. Why not? > > "Biking" might be 'hot' in a cold Oslo and Helisinki but might get a 'cold' shoulder if offered as the choice in hot Ajmer and Ahmedabad. > > What we also seem to disregard is that there is no limit to the instinct of humans to question, investigate, experiment, innovate, design and manufacture new products. Who is to decide that there should be a 'stop here, it is enough'? Dictate of the State? > > One area where the "State" does need to "Dictate" (by common parliamentary approval) and at the very least to "Regulate" (by common parliamentary consent) is in rationalising both the 'consumption heads of Energy' and the 'generating modes' of Energy. A lot can be achieved by financial / taxation "carrots and sticks" especially in cities and larger towns. > > - Shifting timings of work establishments to utilise 'daylight saving'. It kills me to acknowledge that Pakistan has taken a lead in this by adjusting their clocks for 'daylight saving' > > - Limiting the work hours of 'retail establishments' to reduce evening/night Energy consumption. > > - Mandatory 5 day work week for all (hmmmn what about housewives) to save "1 Energy day" and enable families to shop during daylight hours. 24x7 Process Industries are exempt from closure but the manpower has a staggered 5 day week. > > - Convienient Public transportation. "Convienient" is the critical word. (what happens to the aspirational 'I want my own car'? Infrequent usage of personal transport perhaps) > > - Incentivise 'free to harness' Energy sources like Solar, Hydel and Wind. (Specific problems associated with Solar and Hydel acknowledged.) > > - etc ..... etc ... etc. > > Developing a practicable Vision or Philosophy is not always the hinderance, but the "common parliamentary consent/approval". > > > Kshmendra > > From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 23:21:36 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:51:36 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Bangladesh Bans Sachalatayan Blog Message-ID: http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2008/07/17/our-old-freedom-fighter/ Ban on Sachalayatan and govt's dalliance with Jamaat Posted by khujeci_tomai under 1971 , Censorship , jamaat-e-islami As of Tuesday afternoon, access to Sachalayatan.com has been blocked from Bangladesh. Right before this unofficial ban, Sachal (as the users of this site fondly call it) bloggers vehemently protested the attack on a war veteran by Jamaat e Islami activists at a "Liberation War" meeting. In one such article Faruk Wasif on Sachalatayan analyzes the incident: "These obstinate freedom fighters from the subaltern dare do what our seasonal "Sector Commanders" or the frogs of our Syphilis Society cannot." The full article, that may have sealed the fate of Sachal in Bangladesh, has been translated below. In the meantime, New Age produced another stinging rebuke to the military controlled government forgiving special treatment to Jamat. It says, "The offence that Nizami has been accused of having committed is indeed bailable and thus, there is hardly any scope to misconstrue, in any way, the High Court's decision to grant him bail. What is curious, however, is the decision of the military-controlled government and the Anti-Corruption Commission to not move the Appellate Division for a stay on the High Court's order, as they have done in the case of Bangladesh Nationalist Party chairperson Khaleda Zia and two other accused in the case. Also, Nizami is the first among ranking politicians to be released on bail since the interim government assumed office in January 2007, although he was the last to be arrested on corruption charges. Overall, his release gives the lie to the interim government's public posture on war crime and war criminals, and lends credence to the public perception that it has all along treated Jamaat with kid gloves, so to speak, as opposed to iron hand." Our old freedom fighter wanders the streets by Faruk Wasif, Sachalatayan [Translated by Drishtipat.org] The old freedom fighter, who was attacked at a "Liberation War" meeting of the war criminals of Jamaat e Islami, this is his photo. This is his interview, o Daily Shamokal readers. Look closely at his face, his speech. In the land of the 1971 liberation war, the great Sector Commanders squeal like kittens as they demand justice. They do this only at polite tea ceremonies at home. They cannot hold a meeting without TV cameras and bottled mineral water. They go to the current illegal occupiers of power and make gentle requests, "Sir, they are bad people, sir. Please give us justice, sir." They are the gentleman war veterans who have reached sky-high wealth. Sitting on their perch, they secretly hug the Jamaati war criminals and the Pakistan supporting brother American power. In the midst of such a busy schedule, they never have time to join the thousands of people who went to the streets to block Saidi and Ghulam Azam's meetings. Instead of sending a protest rally, they send infiltrators. Whether that does the trick or not, the media bonanza continues, the issue stays alive, and in the afterlife they will fill the vote box. Read the news, look at this man's face. The man did not start shouting at the Jamaat meeting. He felt cheated, walked out and started venting his rage. No one called him, he was fired up on his own anger. The journalists saw the opening and walked in, just as Jamaat workers attacked him, and the news spread. Now we have the toasty hot news! Now all the professional statement makers will lob their statement bombs, where else but at newspaper offices? These people live to give statements and get on the 9'o clock news! But go back to the interview. If you have ever spoken to one of these poverty-broken angry frustrated freedom fighters, you will know that steady stare, that raised finger, that caged heat, which only a true fighter still holds on to. His body is also a document, his language is also a certificate. We have to read all this. My reading tells me that this man will speak again. They are all waiting for one chance, just one chance, to start the 1971 war again. They come to raise hell, spread poison on the happy party, explode with the lava of their hate. And us? All we can do is write a poem. At most! The more you travel downwards in our classist society, the more this hate [for war criminals], this obstinate rage. And in the upper echelons, only honey and unity. At these high altitudes, all passions have faded to grey from the sweet nectar of creature comforts. Fire won't catch here, only pleasures will flow. The sweet taste of money and power gives them orgasms. And everyone knows, at the time of orgasm, you forget whether under you is mother or grandmother, country or land, 1971 or 1982. They too have forgotten everything. Even in 1971, they were whoring, cheating and enjoying—on this side and that side of the border. Today they have split into many political parties and are cooking up the same tricks of the trade. Have you notice, in 1971 no Awami League leader died in a Thana of Mafaswal? So it goes. So our old freedom fighter wanders the streets. He will go to the wrong meeting, the wrong gathering, the endless newspaper offices. Suddenly he will fly into a rage at a tea shop and start screaming. At home his wife and children will curse him and say "What bloody independence war? What have you given us?" He will run out of his house, again prick up his ears: is my mother, my country calling me? His helpless wandering will be the juicy news for the media, he will become a plaything for our complacent Sector Commanders. He will be bought and sold by everybody. A few days later, after the fuss dies down, the Islamists will come to his home. They will offer him money, they will threaten to slit his throat. Even if he does not sell out, he will be afraid for his family. He will lapse into silence. The media and the gentlefolk will stop searching for him. They will go and hunt another war veteran to sell. Business as usual. But no matter how many times people try to sell them, they remain unbroken. They will die, and in their place, from the subaltern, will wake up new people— in Kansat, in Fulbari. The 27 corpses of Kansat, the three teenage bodies of Fulbari, the villagers are still holding on to their martyrdom. In the village, they call Fulbari "liberation war", they compare it to 1971. In this way, 1971 wakes up again and again, not frozen as a dead history. The war will not end. A new battle is ahead. Because 71 is not so cheap, so fragile. The working class crossed the border and became refugees in 1971. Today they roam around, inside their own country, as refugees. In 1971 there were 10 million refugees, and today there are 60/70 million landless, living under the poverty line. They wander around all day, ghosts among us. In 1971, that was the total population of Bangladesh! People will organize again, along these lines of struggle. But tragically, we might fail to recognize them. We may call them hooligans, terrorists or Maoists. Even the dragon worshipper flees when the dragon finally arrives. There is no space for them in our genteel liberation war narrative. And in their authentic liberation war, there is no companion, no leader. But because these people still survive, even the question, the possibility remains. We were reminded of this once again by an unknown, dirt poor, carpenter. He is so incredibly weak—no money, no party, no support, and yet he shook us to the core of our essence. He raised all the questions we hide from. This power, only "they" have. Because they have lost everything and realized, I have nothing left to lose. That is why they can take risks. Even after war criminals beat them, they shout "I will keep demanding justice." They dare do what our seasonal "Sector Commanders" or the frogs of our Syphilis Society cannot.< >< >< ><–> From ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in Fri Jul 18 08:37:12 2008 From: ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in (Ranjith Thankappan) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:37:12 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs Message-ID: <537771.12809.qm@web8702.mail.in.yahoo.com> hi Few days back Manuwadi director (former) of IIT Madras made a comment “'HRD minister has injected AIDS into IITs” (Please visit this link for news http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumbai/HRD_minister_has_injected_AIDS_into_IITs/articleshow/3176486.cms)   these are the kind of "meritorious" Directors available to IITs. No wonder IITs produce IT koolies for the developed world and degraded to the extent of brahmanism. what a shame!! regards Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 10:04:36 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:04:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807170612w3acd492du15b12c4b0f32bb9b@mail.gmail.com> References: <304254.16332.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <9c06aab30807170612w3acd492du15b12c4b0f32bb9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807172134q76a0f965xfa027727ea3e3cf9@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shivam , I appreciate your curiosity. Regarding the 16000 crore package , the finer things about the package is not known to many people and most of the media just caught up with the headlines. We may discuss the 16000 crore package sometime else. When you quote that many Kashmiri hindu businessman spend 6 months in Kashmir , i may not disagree that the few people do. I am sure you know the percentage of Kashmiri Hindu businessmen . Kindly share it with rest of the group. My idea is that it is less than 1%.So if less than 1% Kashmiri Hindus visit Kashmir , where they are welcome as tourist but not as permanent residents , that should not be a quoting figure for normalcy. Also once bitten is twice shy , and Kashmiri Hindus have been bitten more than 8 times in last 1000 years . This time the return has to be on terms of Kashmiri Hindus.And one of the term is a separate homeland with a full flow of Indian constitution. For Kashmiri Hindus , the political reasons do not make any reason for their non returning . They don't have a representative in assembly or the national parliament. The reason has everything to what they had witnessed sometimes back , which made them run away to save lives and honour. Regards Pawan Durani On 7/17/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > While a typo can be ignored, the question is worth asking: what prevents > pandits from being 'faciliated' to return? Militancy has declined, nobody > is > holding a gun to Pandits' temples and quita few happily (especially > businessmen) are spending six months in the Valley and six in Delhi. But > many. Why has the package of Rs. 16,000 crores been rejected? Do Pandits > even want to reurn, considering 70% have sold their land back home? And why > don't they want to return, considering they can buy land? Is it political > reasons rather than safety? Is is that many non-Jammu migrants are well > settled in Delhi, Pune, Bangalore, New York? Is it that returning would > mean > giving up the political uses of victimhood and let 'separatists' say, > "Look, > even the Pandits are back." I am not making these allegations but asking > questions. Like all communities the Pandits are a divided community. > Kshmendra Kaul does not represent them all. Everyone has different reasons > and different circumstances. > > best > shivam > > > On 7/16/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > A "International Kashmir Peace Conference" was held Washington D.C, > > 14th-15th July. It adopted the "Washington Declaration". > > > > The website of "Association of Humanitarian Lawyers", one of the sponsors > > of the Conference, furnishes the text of the "Declaration" > > > > Point 8 in it reads "The Conference calls for protection of all > minorities. > > All the displaced persons including Kashmiri bandits should be > facilitated > > to return to their ancestral home." > > > > http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html > > > > Did not know that "bandits" had been displaced out of Kashmir. At least > > they are being called 'displaced' and not 'migrants' > > > > KK > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > -- > /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 10:58:30 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:58:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807170612w3acd492du15b12c4b0f32bb9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Shivam, I'm surprised that it's you asking this question. It is both offensive and naïve to suggest that Pandits are not returning because they are holding on to a sense of victimhood to further political ends. Though there are, undoubtedly, political formations that benefit from the continuing displacement of the Pandits, including the Government of India, it is wrong to suggest that over 200,000 people who have lost their homes, lands and livelihood would prefer to stay in some dump in the plains because of political gain. Would you think like that if it had happened to you? I wouldn't. If it was safe enough for me to return, I would. The way things are at present no Kashmiri Pandit would risk moving back without guarantees of safety to life and limb. Who will give them that, the GoI that has been helpless when massacres have taken place? Kashmiri Muslims, who themselves are at risk from the militant's gun? Tragically, in the past, every time the GoI announced some package to facilitate the return of the Pandits and the press made a noise about a few families returning, there were massacres of the Pandits that had remained in the valley: Wandhama, Telwani, Sangrampora, and Nadimarg. The killings were brutal and they were brutal because the killers wanted to send out a message in no uncertain terms. I doubt anyone in their right minds would ignore that and put their loved ones at risk. The return of the Pandits would signal the end of militancy and a real return to normalcy. Obviously there are groups that will oppose this unless it is part of a deal between India and Pakistan on Kashmir. Only with a formal end to the war, a settlement of the Kashmir issue, with the declaration of various packages for various groups, can the Pandits actually return. Until then, of course individuals are free to come and go and nobody is 'holding a gun to their heads,' but that is surely not the same thing. Interestingly, there are many thousand Kashmiri Muslim men stranded on the other side of the border who left Kashmir in the early days of the movement and long to return to Kashmir. They fear arrest and torture. I met some of them when I was in Pakistan. They, too, dare not risk returning until the formal end of the war. With so many lives at stake-- those who have left, those whose lives remain hellish in J&K, it is imperative that we keep pressuring the governments of India & Pakistan to settle this issue. Sadly, the momentum has been lost because of domestic compulsions in both countries, and I don't see things getting resolved in a hurry. -sj On 7/17/08 6:42 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" wrote: > While a typo can be ignored, the question is worth asking: what > prevents pandits from being 'faciliated' to return? Militancy has declined, > nobody is holding a gun to Pandits' temples and quita few happily > (especially businessmen) are spending six months in the Valley and six in > Delhi. But many. Why has the package of Rs. 16,000 crores been rejected? Do > Pandits even want to reurn, considering 70% have sold their land back home? > And why don't they want to return, considering they can buy land? Is it > political reasons rather than safety? Is is that many non-Jammu migrants are > well settled in Delhi, Pune, Bangalore, New York? Is it that returning would > mean giving up the political uses of victimhood and let 'separatists' say, > "Look, even the Pandits are back." I am not making these allegations but > asking questions. Like all communities the Pandits are a divided > community. Kshmendra Kaul does not represent them all. Everyone has different > reasons and different circumstances. best shivam On 7/16/08, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > A "International Kashmir Peace > Conference" was held Washington D.C, > 14th-15th July. It adopted the > "Washington Declaration". > > The website of "Association of Humanitarian > Lawyers", one of the sponsors > of the Conference, furnishes the text of the > "Declaration" > > Point 8 in it reads "The Conference calls for protection of > all minorities. > All the displaced persons including Kashmiri bandits should > be facilitated > to return to their ancestral home." > > > http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html > > Did not know that "bandits" > had been displaced out of Kashmir. At least > they are being called > 'displaced' and not 'migrants' > > KK > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > -- /National Highway/ > http://shivamvij.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: > an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From b_a_r_u_k at yahoo.com Fri Jul 18 12:08:21 2008 From: b_a_r_u_k at yahoo.com (Baruk S. Jacob) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:38:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs In-Reply-To: <537771.12809.qm@web8702.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <489414.845.qm@web54202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Ranjith, Read the article with interest-I am in the strange position of having seen both sides of the reservation debate, and am yet to really make up my mind. A snippet caught my eye, though, "IIT-Delhi professor Pankaj Jalote said reservation for students had to be viewed differently from faculty reservation. In case of students, he said, there is no compromise on the quality of education. "But if selection of faculty is done on anything else but merit, it will affect education," Do you disagree with this? Regards, ~Baruk http://bottlebroke.blogspot.com --- On Fri, 7/18/08, Ranjith Thankappan wrote: > From: Ranjith Thankappan > Subject: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs > To: "sarai" > Date: Friday, July 18, 2008, 8:37 AM > hi > Few days back Manuwadi director (former) of IIT Madras made > a comment “'HRD minister has injected AIDS into > IITs” (Please visit this link for news > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumbai/HRD_minister_has_injected_AIDS_into_IITs/articleshow/3176486.cms) > >   > these are the kind of "meritorious" Directors > available to IITs. No wonder IITs produce IT koolies for > the developed world and degraded to the extent of > brahmanism. what a shame!! > regards > > > Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Jul 18 12:35:43 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:05:43 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs In-Reply-To: <489414.845.qm@web54202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <537771.12809.qm@web8702.mail.in.yahoo.com> <489414.845.qm@web54202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Reservation and quota is needed, BUT NOT for the individuals of any caste or faith, IT IS needed to the funds in national exchequer to provide basic education to all, to give them opportunity to improve the skill sets, then best of all communities and castes and faiths will have equal opportunity to study any professional course with better grasp and capacity to learn. Present system of langda HRD is only to garner votes with the guise of uplifting the downtrodden, but in reality, the individuals who get seats can not cope up as the fundamental education that they got is skewed, lopsided. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Baruk S. Jacob" Date: Friday, July 18, 2008 12:09 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs To: sarai , Ranjith Thankappan > Hi Ranjith, > > Read the article with interest-I am in the strange position of > having seen both sides of the reservation debate, and am yet to > really make up my mind. A snippet caught my eye, though, > > "IIT-Delhi professor Pankaj Jalote said reservation for students > had to be viewed differently from faculty reservation. In case of > students, he said, there is no compromise on the quality of > education. "But if selection of faculty is done on anything else > but merit, it will affect education," > > Do you disagree with this? > > Regards, > > ~Baruk > > http://bottlebroke.blogspot.com > > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, Ranjith Thankappan > wrote: > > From: Ranjith Thankappan > > Subject: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs > > To: "sarai" > > Date: Friday, July 18, 2008, 8:37 AM > > hi > > Few days back Manuwadi director (former) of IIT Madras made > > a comment “'HRD minister has injected AIDS into > > IITs” (Please visit this link for news > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumbai/HRD_minister_has_injected_AIDS_into_IITs/articleshow/3176486.cms)> > >   > > these are the kind of "meritorious" Directors > > available to IITs. No wonder IITs produce IT koolies for > > the developed world and degraded to the extent of > > brahmanism. what a shame!! > > regards > > > > > > Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to > > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Jul 18 12:46:05 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:16:05 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs In-Reply-To: <537771.12809.qm@web8702.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <537771.12809.qm@web8702.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: By the way Manu was a kshatriya king of ancient India, not a brahmin, and also brahmin in true sense means one who knows brahma, that is absolute knowledge, none become brahmin by birth, only seeking and getting knowledge makes one a brahmin. More over, the scripture has correct interpretation of the entire society, as a cosmic body, where, the knowledgeable ones are the brain of that societal cosmic body, those who defend the kingdom are arms of that society, those who do business in society, serve the king in the need of wealth are vysyas, and those who serve all are the others, political games and the policy of division of society by making some of higher castes and many others as lower castes is done by ruling class as a whole, who term themselves as OTHER BACKWARD Castes, and neither the lower, nor the upper get any benefit as only vote banks are created to be loyal to this special castes, as OTHER BACKWARD castes and as can be seen even today, they are powerful fuedal lords, be it a Arjun Singh or VP Singh or Scindhias or REDDYs and Gowdas, who were paleygars of the kingdoms who then and now are exploiting the society. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ranjith Thankappan Date: Friday, July 18, 2008 8:37 am Subject: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs To: sarai > hi > Few days back Manuwadi director (former) of IIT Madras made a > comment “'HRD minister has injected AIDS into IITs” (Please visit > this link for news > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumbai/HRD_minister_has_injected_AIDS_into_IITs/articleshow/3176486.cms) >   > these are the kind of "meritorious" Directors available to IITs. > No wonder IITs produce IT koolies for the developed world and > degraded to the extent of brahmanism. what a shame!! > regards > > > Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/_________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Jul 18 12:55:25 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:25:25 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: <487F62A1.9070307@gmail.com> References: <701536.79761.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <487F62A1.9070307@gmail.com> Message-ID: Suddenly all the states are facing the acute shortage of electricity, suddenly all the NTPC and other energy generating units are fully so-operative, as the date of vote of confidence is nearing , suddenly Sonia talks of energy, need for sourcing energy from nuclear plants, timing and actions of central authorities controlling power generation and distribution is exceedingly well timed for Sonia, as the states she is visiting have power cuts, but not during her visit and ghost written speech reading, about national interest and energy generation. ? America has passed a legislation in Hyde Act which is India specific, all nations have the right to pass legislation in their interest, and this India specific legislation is making India testing or keeping N-weapons open for all such ACTIONs as may be needed, even use of force along with sanctions. Has any one of our INTELLECTIALS who talk of national interest have ventured in to the effects of hyde act and consequent actions if America in its national interest feels and percieves that India is a threat to its interest.? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tapas Ray Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008 8:48 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar To: sarai list > Thanks, Kshemendra. Interesting points. Amit's too. I feel like > jumping > in, but can't. Will join in, maybe two or three wekks later, if > this > sub-thread is still live. > > Tapas > > > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Amit > > > > You did not direct your response at any particular individual. > > > > > From: Amit Basole > > > The debate over consumption norms and whether "everyone" will be > able to drive a car, cool off with a A/C, own a laptop and cell > phone, and where the energy for all this will come from cannot be > divorced from the political economy of development. The pressing > question is not whether in some distant, or not so distant future, > everyone can enjoy the same material comforts without eroding the > basic conditions of our existence. That worry sounds (at least to > me) like the worry of the already privileged who are concerned > that as their consumption patterns get generalized, the very > process of emulation and generalization will rob them of the life > they have grown used to. > > > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 8:14 AM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > > > Dear Tapas > > > > Enjoyed reading your posting. > > > > The philosophy and parameters (with examples) of 'new framework' > for a 'technological civilization' is very ennobling and sincere > towards finding a solution for the 'energy crunch'. > > > > In this, one of the main problems perhaps is what you yourself > have hinted at. One where those who 'do not have' aspire to 'have' > all of that which the "haves have" and that are seen as the > comforts and convieniences of 'technological advancement' that > they currently find unaffordable. > > > > As an example, the graduation from walking (as a neccessity and > not for relaxation) to a bicycle to a moped to a scooter (or > bullock cart and then tractor) and finally a car is aspirational. > With justifiable reasons. Endless number of other scenarios as > examples.> > > It also has at different levels of 'accquisitions' the 'status > symbol superiority' of one product over the other; 'dekha dekhi' > (oneupmanship). Humans 'desire' and 'want' much more than what > might simply fulfill their 'need'. > > > > There are also the aspects of 'convieience' and 'comfort'. It > might not be 'the Law' but a fair hypothesis would be that those > most willing to 'give up' products of 'convienience' and 'comfort' > are the ones for whom such products are affordable. > > > > Those who can afford 'airconditioning' can speak about shutting > it down and opening the windows to get fresh air. The ones trying > to cool down under the hot air blast circulated by a 'fan' would > prefer a 'cooler' and then a A/C. Endless number of other > scenarios as examples > > > > In SARAI itself a few weeks back there was derision at the TATA > NANO and the merits lauded of 'biking'. Would the person who can > afford only a bicycle want to be able to buy a scooter (and > balance spouse and children on it)? I think yes. Would he/she be > satisfied with that? I think not. He/she would next aspire to own > a NANO; an Airconditioned one. Why not? > > > > "Biking" might be 'hot' in a cold Oslo and Helisinki but might > get a 'cold' shoulder if offered as the choice in hot Ajmer and > Ahmedabad.> > > What we also seem to disregard is that there is no limit to the > instinct of humans to question, investigate, experiment, innovate, > design and manufacture new products. Who is to decide that there > should be a 'stop here, it is enough'? Dictate of the State? > > > > One area where the "State" does need to "Dictate" (by common > parliamentary approval) and at the very least to "Regulate" (by > common parliamentary consent) is in rationalising both the > 'consumption heads of Energy' and the 'generating modes' of > Energy. A lot can be achieved by financial / taxation "carrots > and sticks" especially in cities and larger towns. > > > > - Shifting timings of work establishments to utilise 'daylight > saving'. It kills me to acknowledge that Pakistan has taken a lead > in this by adjusting their clocks for 'daylight saving' > > > > - Limiting the work hours of 'retail establishments' to reduce > evening/night Energy consumption. > > > > - Mandatory 5 day work week for all (hmmmn what about > housewives) to save "1 Energy day" and enable families to shop > during daylight hours. 24x7 Process Industries are exempt from > closure but the manpower has a staggered 5 day week. > > > > - Convienient Public transportation. "Convienient" is the > critical word. (what happens to the aspirational 'I want my own > car'? Infrequent usage of personal transport perhaps) > > > > - Incentivise 'free to harness' Energy sources like Solar, Hydel > and Wind. (Specific problems associated with Solar and Hydel > acknowledged.) > > > > - etc ..... etc ... etc. > > > > Developing a practicable Vision or Philosophy is not always the > hinderance, but the "common parliamentary consent/approval". > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 18 13:33:48 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 01:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The South Asian Idea Message-ID: <404392.45740.qm@web51402.mail.re2.yahoo.com> The South Asian Idea A Repository of Ideas on Governance in South Asia The South Asian Idea is designed as a resource for college students in South Asia to promote open thinking. Please help spread the word by forwarding this email or any of the posts below. Ask your friends to forward it further. A direct link to the site is HERE. http://thesouthasianidea.wordpress.com/ Hindu-Muslim or Muslim-Hindu? http://thesouthasianidea.wordpress.com/2008/07/14/hindu-muslim/ Yes, incredible as it may seem, there still are communities that are both Hindu and Muslims at the same time – and the purists are after them. Which side is right? On Fundamentalism Is God necessary for religious fundamentalism? And is Hindutva fundamentalism? The Politics of Identity in Pakistan Should blacks vote for blacks and women for women? Why Stanley Fish is wrong. Democracy – A Historical Perspective Why is it so hard to turn Pakistan into a democracy? Democracy in India - 1 Yes, India is a democracy but… It is a peculiar kind of democracy. More on the Modern South Asian – 2 Is the modern South Asian really modern? And how does one define modernity? Milton and Ghalib Is poetry of any use? And does it matter? Pakistan Picaresque Find out why all the foreign aid to Pakistan has gone into a deep dark hole. Helping Pakistan The post that started the blog with the November 3, 2007 Emergency in Pakiatan. Cricket and Politics If you like cricket and are confused by politics you will like this wrong 'un. AND, FOR FREE A Gash in the World A novel of ideas – Where did Hindutva come from? PLUS, FOR FUN A Modern Fable Decode this fable and win $100. It gets really tough towards the end. Thank You For Reading! -- The Editors From mail at shivamvij.com Fri Jul 18 15:59:41 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:59:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70807172134q76a0f965xfa027727ea3e3cf9@mail.gmail.com> References: <304254.16332.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <9c06aab30807170612w3acd492du15b12c4b0f32bb9b@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807172134q76a0f965xfa027727ea3e3cf9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807180329g2c683987k69efa5f2ccbd3341@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, Many thanks for your reply, although it was directed at Kshmendra, who has surprisingly not replied so far. Sometimes I wonder whether Kshmendra exists at all or if he is elusive like the solution to the Kashmir dispute. > Regarding the 16000 crore package , the finer things > about the package is not known to many people and > most of the media just caught up with the headlines. > We may discuss the 16000 crore package sometime else. The details have indeed come out: http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=26_4_2008&ItemID=51&cat=1 Your attempt to brush this away makes me wonder even more: now when the government is paying to share substantial costs to return to the Valley, now that militancy is at its lowest, why don't you return? More details about how the package would be operationalised are immaterial because various Pandit leaders have rejected the very idea outright. > When you quote that many Kashmiri hindu businessman spend 6 > months in Kashmir , i may not disagree that the few people do. > I am sure you know the percentage of Kashmiri > Hindu businessmen . Kindly share it with rest of the group. > My idea is that it is less than 1%. Well, I met some such and was told about them. But the point is that if it is safe for some to live for six months, why is it unsafe for others to live for twelve months? You can say that a certain district is still unsafe, you arre afraid, but why can't those in Srinagar want to return. One point you haven't answered is: WHY WOULD SOMEONE WHO HAS SOLD HIS PROPERTY RETURN? I am told that 7 in 10 migrants have sold their properties and have thus given up their stake in the valley - something that the Pandits who refused to migrate are pained about. What are the reasons for selling property? > where they are welcome as tourist > but not as permanent residents This is completely untrue. The local population is in fact guilty that the Pandits were kicked out in the first place, and the 'separatists' regret it even more because the Indian government used the plight of the Pandits as a scoring point against the separatists. (For the same reason not a single yatri was attacked, and in fact Muslims held langars in Srinagar, during nine days of strike, agitation and CRPF firing in the Valley. It was not so much an act of charity but a politically calculated act of restraint.) > Also once bitten is twice shy , and Kashmiri > Hindus have been bitten more than 8 times in last 1000 years . And the Pandits have been migrating for ages. In my city, Lucknow, they have had a rich history, as also in Delhi. Not all Pandits are refugees, and not all pandit refugees live / lived in camps - somehow the discourse on pandits have stereotyped a hardworking, literate, upwardly mobile community as refugees and nothing else. > This time the return has to be on terms of Kashmiri Hindus. > And one of the term is a separate homeland with a > full flow of Indian constitution. Pandits did not leave Kashmir in protest of the J&K constitution. In 1989 Pandits did not say, "Extend Indian Constitution to Kashmir or we'll leave." They left because of threats of violence and if the threats of violence have been replaced by calls for return and assurances of safety, why don't they return? And most refugees went to nearby Jammu where the 'full flow' of the Indian Constitution applies as much as it does in Sopore. There were also Pandits displaced within the valley many of whom have accepted a rehabilitation package from the J&K government. Why should Pandits have a separate homeland? And if that is what they want, why shouldn't Kashmir have independence from India? This seems to be going in the logic of the Partition of India. The kashmir issue is an unsettled sore thumb of the partition. The Pandits were and are a part of the state of Jammu and Kashmir which had independence for three months, which is the only state to have its own flag, its own Constitution, rules debarring outsiders from buying land. It has 28 vacant seats for PoK but this logic is not extended to the Parliament of India. J&K has a UN observer mission, it has an LoC rather than an international border - in short, even the Constitution of India indirectly admits that kashmir is a disputed territory. Now you can demand a separate homeland for Pandits or demand whatever whether you are living in Anantnag or Amsterdam. But, again: that is not why you left Kashmir. You left because of killings and threats, and now that they are no more, why don;t you return? And cosnidering you have sold your land, do you even want to return? Would my dear friend ARK leave Ramjas College and go to Kashmir University - or the Vaishnu Devi university or the proposed Sharda Peeth for that matter? If 2500 people who are still there and who never migrated, can live there, why can't you? And Kashmir has something stronger than the 'full flow' of the Indian Constitution. It has the Indian army, BSF, CRPF at every nook and corner. best shivam On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:04 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Dear Shivam , > > I appreciate your curiosity. > > Regarding the 16000 crore package , the finer things about the package is not known to many people and most of the media just caught up with the headlines. We may discuss the 16000 crore package sometime else. > > When you quote that many Kashmiri hindu businessman spend 6 months in Kashmir , i may not disagree that the few people do. I am sure you know the percentage of Kashmiri Hindu businessmen . Kindly share it with rest of the group. My idea is that it is less than 1%.So if less than 1% Kashmiri Hindus visit Kashmir , where they are welcome as tourist but not as permanent residents , that should not be a quoting figure for normalcy. > > Also once bitten is twice shy , and Kashmiri Hindus have been bitten more than 8 times in last 1000 years . This time the return has to be on terms of Kashmiri Hindus.And one of the term is a separate homeland with a full flow of Indian constitution. > > For Kashmiri Hindus , the political reasons do not make any reason for their non returning . They don't have a representative in assembly or the national parliament. The reason has everything to what they had witnessed sometimes back , which made them run away to save lives and honour. > > Regards > > Pawan Durani > > > On 7/17/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> While a typo can be ignored, the question is worth asking: what prevents >> pandits from being 'faciliated' to return? Militancy has declined, nobody is >> holding a gun to Pandits' temples and quita few happily (especially >> businessmen) are spending six months in the Valley and six in Delhi. But >> many. Why has the package of Rs. 16,000 crores been rejected? Do Pandits >> even want to reurn, considering 70% have sold their land back home? And why >> don't they want to return, considering they can buy land? Is it political >> reasons rather than safety? Is is that many non-Jammu migrants are well >> settled in Delhi, Pune, Bangalore, New York? Is it that returning would mean >> giving up the political uses of victimhood and let 'separatists' say, "Look, >> even the Pandits are back." I am not making these allegations but asking >> questions. Like all communities the Pandits are a divided community. >> Kshmendra Kaul does not represent them all. Everyone has different reasons >> and different circumstances. >> >> best >> shivam >> >> >> On 7/16/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >> > >> > A "International Kashmir Peace Conference" was held Washington D.C, >> > 14th-15th July. It adopted the "Washington Declaration". >> > >> > The website of "Association of Humanitarian Lawyers", one of the sponsors >> > of the Conference, furnishes the text of the "Declaration" >> > >> > Point 8 in it reads "The Conference calls for protection of all minorities. >> > All the displaced persons including Kashmiri bandits should be facilitated >> > to return to their ancestral home." >> > >> > http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html >> > >> > Did not know that "bandits" had been displaced out of Kashmir. At least >> > they are being called 'displaced' and not 'migrants' >> > >> > KK >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> >> -- >> /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ From mail at shivamvij.com Fri Jul 18 16:00:43 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:00:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration In-Reply-To: References: <9c06aab30807170612w3acd492du15b12c4b0f32bb9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807180330n67584888h4c6a98683341fc0d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Sonia, I don't think I was being either naive or offensive. best shivam On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:58 AM, S. Jabbar wrote: > Shivam, > > I'm surprised that it's you asking this question. It is both offensive and > naïve to suggest that Pandits are not returning because they are holding on > to a sense of victimhood to further political ends. Though there are, > undoubtedly, political formations that benefit from the continuing > displacement of the Pandits, including the Government of India, it is wrong > to suggest that over 200,000 people who have lost their homes, lands and > livelihood would prefer to stay in some dump in the plains because of > political gain. > > Would you think like that if it had happened to you? I wouldn't. If it was > safe enough for me to return, I would. The way things are at present no > Kashmiri Pandit would risk moving back without guarantees of safety to life > and limb. Who will give them that, the GoI that has been helpless when > massacres have taken place? Kashmiri Muslims, who themselves are at risk > from the militant's gun? > > Tragically, in the past, every time the GoI announced some package to > facilitate the return of the Pandits and the press made a noise about a few > families returning, there were massacres of the Pandits that had remained in > the valley: Wandhama, Telwani, Sangrampora, and Nadimarg. The killings were > brutal and they were brutal because the killers wanted to send out a message > in no uncertain terms. I doubt anyone in their right minds would ignore > that and put their loved ones at risk. > > The return of the Pandits would signal the end of militancy and a real > return to normalcy. Obviously there are groups that will oppose this unless > it is part of a deal between India and Pakistan on Kashmir. Only with a > formal end to the war, a settlement of the Kashmir issue, with the > declaration of various packages for various groups, can the Pandits actually > return. Until then, of course individuals are free to come and go and > nobody is 'holding a gun to their heads,' but that is surely not the same > thing. > > Interestingly, there are many thousand Kashmiri Muslim men stranded on the > other side of the border who left Kashmir in the early days of the movement > and long to return to Kashmir. They fear arrest and torture. I met some of > them when I was in Pakistan. They, too, dare not risk returning until the > formal end of the war. > > With so many lives at stake-- those who have left, those whose lives remain > hellish in J&K, it is imperative that we keep pressuring the governments of > India & Pakistan to settle this issue. Sadly, the momentum has been lost > because of domestic compulsions in both countries, and I don't see things > getting resolved in a hurry. > > -sj > > > On 7/17/08 6:42 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" wrote: > >> While a typo can be ignored, the question is worth asking: what >> prevents > pandits from being 'faciliated' to return? Militancy has declined, >> nobody is > holding a gun to Pandits' temples and quita few happily >> (especially > businessmen) are spending six months in the Valley and six in >> Delhi. But > many. Why has the package of Rs. 16,000 crores been rejected? Do >> Pandits > even want to reurn, considering 70% have sold their land back home? >> And why > don't they want to return, considering they can buy land? Is it >> political > reasons rather than safety? Is is that many non-Jammu migrants are >> well > settled in Delhi, Pune, Bangalore, New York? Is it that returning would >> mean > giving up the political uses of victimhood and let 'separatists' say, >> "Look, > even the Pandits are back." I am not making these allegations but >> asking > questions. Like all communities the Pandits are a divided >> community. > Kshmendra Kaul does not represent them all. Everyone has different >> reasons > and different circumstances. > > best > shivam > > > On 7/16/08, Kshmendra Kaul >> wrote: >> >> A "International Kashmir Peace >> Conference" was held Washington D.C, >> 14th-15th July. It adopted the >> "Washington Declaration". >> >> The website of "Association of Humanitarian >> Lawyers", one of the sponsors >> of the Conference, furnishes the text of the >> "Declaration" >> >> Point 8 in it reads "The Conference calls for protection of >> all minorities. >> All the displaced persons including Kashmiri bandits should >> be facilitated >> to return to their ancestral home." >> >> >> http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html >> >> Did not know that "bandits" >> had been displaced out of Kashmir. At least >> they are being called >> 'displaced' and not 'migrants' >> >> KK >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion >> list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send >> an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject >> header. >> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> > > > > > -- > /National Highway/ >> http://shivamvij.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: >> an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To >> subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the subject header. > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 16:08:10 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:08:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807180330n67584888h4c6a98683341fc0d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ok, your take entirely, but you still haven't answered my question, which is would you not return to your home because you wanted to score a political point? On 7/18/08 4:00 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" wrote: > Dear Sonia, I don't think I was being either naive or > offensive. best shivam On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:58 AM, S. Jabbar > wrote: > Shivam, > > I'm surprised that it's you > asking this question. It is both offensive and > naïve to suggest that > Pandits are not returning because they are holding on > to a sense of > victimhood to further political ends. Though there are, > undoubtedly, > political formations that benefit from the continuing > displacement of the > Pandits, including the Government of India, it is wrong > to suggest that over > 200,000 people who have lost their homes, lands and > livelihood would prefer > to stay in some dump in the plains because of > political gain. > > Would you > think like that if it had happened to you? I wouldn't. If it was > safe > enough for me to return, I would. The way things are at present no > Kashmiri > Pandit would risk moving back without guarantees of safety to life > and limb. > Who will give them that, the GoI that has been helpless when > massacres have > taken place? Kashmiri Muslims, who themselves are at risk > from the > militant's gun? > > Tragically, in the past, every time the GoI announced some > package to > facilitate the return of the Pandits and the press made a noise > about a few > families returning, there were massacres of the Pandits that had > remained in > the valley: Wandhama, Telwani, Sangrampora, and Nadimarg. The > killings were > brutal and they were brutal because the killers wanted to send > out a message > in no uncertain terms. I doubt anyone in their right minds > would ignore > that and put their loved ones at risk. > > The return of the > Pandits would signal the end of militancy and a real > return to normalcy. > Obviously there are groups that will oppose this unless > it is part of a deal > between India and Pakistan on Kashmir. Only with a > formal end to the war, a > settlement of the Kashmir issue, with the > declaration of various packages > for various groups, can the Pandits actually > return. Until then, of course > individuals are free to come and go and > nobody is 'holding a gun to their > heads,' but that is surely not the same > thing. > > Interestingly, there are > many thousand Kashmiri Muslim men stranded on the > other side of the border > who left Kashmir in the early days of the movement > and long to return to > Kashmir. They fear arrest and torture. I met some of > them when I was in > Pakistan. They, too, dare not risk returning until the > formal end of the > war. > > With so many lives at stake-- those who have left, those whose lives > remain > hellish in J&K, it is imperative that we keep pressuring the > governments of > India & Pakistan to settle this issue. Sadly, the momentum > has been lost > because of domestic compulsions in both countries, and I don't > see things > getting resolved in a hurry. > > -sj > > > On 7/17/08 6:42 PM, > "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" wrote: > >> While a typo can be > ignored, the question is worth asking: what >> prevents > pandits from being > 'faciliated' to return? Militancy has declined, >> nobody is > holding a gun > to Pandits' temples and quita few happily >> (especially > businessmen) are > spending six months in the Valley and six in >> Delhi. But > many. Why has the > package of Rs. 16,000 crores been rejected? Do >> Pandits > even want to > reurn, considering 70% have sold their land back home? >> And why > don't they > want to return, considering they can buy land? Is it >> political > reasons > rather than safety? Is is that many non-Jammu migrants are >> well > settled > in Delhi, Pune, Bangalore, New York? Is it that returning would >> mean > > giving up the political uses of victimhood and let 'separatists' say, >> > "Look, > even the Pandits are back." I am not making these allegations but >> > asking > questions. Like all communities the Pandits are a divided >> > community. > Kshmendra Kaul does not represent them all. Everyone has > different >> reasons > and different circumstances. > > best > shivam > > > On > 7/16/08, Kshmendra Kaul >> wrote: >> >> A > "International Kashmir Peace >> Conference" was held Washington D.C, >> > 14th-15th July. It adopted the >> "Washington Declaration". >> >> The website > of "Association of Humanitarian >> Lawyers", one of the sponsors >> of the > Conference, furnishes the text of the >> "Declaration" >> >> Point 8 in it > reads "The Conference calls for protection of >> all minorities. >> All the > displaced persons including Kashmiri bandits should >> be facilitated >> to > return to their ancestral home." >> >> >> > http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html >> >> Did not know that > "bandits" >> had been displaced out of Kashmir. At least >> they are being > called >> 'displaced' and not 'migrants' >> >> KK >> >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open > discussion >> list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To > subscribe: send >> an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe > in the subject >> header. >> To unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> > > > > > > -- > /National > Highway/ >> http://shivamvij.com/ > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: >> an open discussion > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To >> subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- /National > Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ From mail at shivamvij.com Fri Jul 18 16:10:25 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:10:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration In-Reply-To: References: <9c06aab30807180330n67584888h4c6a98683341fc0d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807180340n594644c3k39da474001c7cf83@mail.gmail.com> That is a personal question directed only at me. Yes, perhaps I wouldn't, particularly if I am part of a community that is overwhelmingly not in favour of returning, and I would return only with a large group. And particularly if I am well settled in a job in Delhi. best shivam On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 4:08 PM, S. Jabbar wrote: > Ok, your take entirely, but you still haven't answered my question, which is > would you not return to your home because you wanted to score a political > point? > > > On 7/18/08 4:00 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" wrote: > >> Dear Sonia, > > I don't think I was being either naive or >> offensive. > > best > shivam > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:58 AM, S. Jabbar >> wrote: >> Shivam, >> >> I'm surprised that it's you >> asking this question. It is both offensive and >> naïve to suggest that >> Pandits are not returning because they are holding on >> to a sense of >> victimhood to further political ends. Though there are, >> undoubtedly, >> political formations that benefit from the continuing >> displacement of the >> Pandits, including the Government of India, it is wrong >> to suggest that over >> 200,000 people who have lost their homes, lands and >> livelihood would prefer >> to stay in some dump in the plains because of >> political gain. >> >> Would you >> think like that if it had happened to you? I wouldn't. If it was >> safe >> enough for me to return, I would. The way things are at present no >> Kashmiri >> Pandit would risk moving back without guarantees of safety to life >> and limb. >> Who will give them that, the GoI that has been helpless when >> massacres have >> taken place? Kashmiri Muslims, who themselves are at risk >> from the >> militant's gun? >> >> Tragically, in the past, every time the GoI announced some >> package to >> facilitate the return of the Pandits and the press made a noise >> about a few >> families returning, there were massacres of the Pandits that had >> remained in >> the valley: Wandhama, Telwani, Sangrampora, and Nadimarg. The >> killings were >> brutal and they were brutal because the killers wanted to send >> out a message >> in no uncertain terms. I doubt anyone in their right minds >> would ignore >> that and put their loved ones at risk. >> >> The return of the >> Pandits would signal the end of militancy and a real >> return to normalcy. >> Obviously there are groups that will oppose this unless >> it is part of a deal >> between India and Pakistan on Kashmir. Only with a >> formal end to the war, a >> settlement of the Kashmir issue, with the >> declaration of various packages >> for various groups, can the Pandits actually >> return. Until then, of course >> individuals are free to come and go and >> nobody is 'holding a gun to their >> heads,' but that is surely not the same >> thing. >> >> Interestingly, there are >> many thousand Kashmiri Muslim men stranded on the >> other side of the border >> who left Kashmir in the early days of the movement >> and long to return to >> Kashmir. They fear arrest and torture. I met some of >> them when I was in >> Pakistan. They, too, dare not risk returning until the >> formal end of the >> war. >> >> With so many lives at stake-- those who have left, those whose lives >> remain >> hellish in J&K, it is imperative that we keep pressuring the >> governments of >> India & Pakistan to settle this issue. Sadly, the momentum >> has been lost >> because of domestic compulsions in both countries, and I don't >> see things >> getting resolved in a hurry. >> >> -sj >> >> >> On 7/17/08 6:42 PM, >> "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" wrote: >> >>> While a typo can be >> ignored, the question is worth asking: what >>> prevents >> pandits from being >> 'faciliated' to return? Militancy has declined, >>> nobody is >> holding a gun >> to Pandits' temples and quita few happily >>> (especially >> businessmen) are >> spending six months in the Valley and six in >>> Delhi. But >> many. Why has the >> package of Rs. 16,000 crores been rejected? Do >>> Pandits >> even want to >> reurn, considering 70% have sold their land back home? >>> And why >> don't they >> want to return, considering they can buy land? Is it >>> political >> reasons >> rather than safety? Is is that many non-Jammu migrants are >>> well >> settled >> in Delhi, Pune, Bangalore, New York? Is it that returning would >>> mean >> >> giving up the political uses of victimhood and let 'separatists' say, >>> >> "Look, >> even the Pandits are back." I am not making these allegations but >>> >> asking >> questions. Like all communities the Pandits are a divided >>> >> community. >> Kshmendra Kaul does not represent them all. Everyone has >> different >>> reasons >> and different circumstances. >> >> best >> shivam >> >> >> On >> 7/16/08, Kshmendra Kaul >>> wrote: >>> >>> A >> "International Kashmir Peace >>> Conference" was held Washington D.C, >>> >> 14th-15th July. It adopted the >>> "Washington Declaration". >>> >>> The website >> of "Association of Humanitarian >>> Lawyers", one of the sponsors >>> of the >> Conference, furnishes the text of the >>> "Declaration" >>> >>> Point 8 in it >> reads "The Conference calls for protection of >>> all minorities. >>> All the >> displaced persons including Kashmiri bandits should >>> be facilitated >>> to >> return to their ancestral home." >>> >>> >>> >> http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html >>> >>> Did not know that >> "bandits" >>> had been displaced out of Kashmir. At least >>> they are being >> called >>> 'displaced' and not 'migrants' >>> >>> KK >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open >> discussion >>> list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To >> subscribe: send >>> an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe >> in the subject >>> header. >>> To unsubscribe: >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> /National >> Highway/ >>> http://shivamvij.com/ >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: >>> an open discussion >> list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To >>> subscribe: >> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >>> the >> subject header. >> To unsubscribe: >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > > > > -- > /National >> Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > > > > -- /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 16:12:29 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:12:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807180340n594644c3k39da474001c7cf83@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Well, then you and I are made of very different stuff...Good luck! On 7/18/08 4:10 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" wrote: > That is a personal question directed only at me. Yes, perhaps I wouldn't, > particularly if I am part of a community that is overwhelmingly not in favour > of returning, and I would return only with a large group. And particularly if > I am well settled in a job in Delhi. best shivam On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at > 4:08 PM, S. Jabbar wrote: > Ok, your take entirely, > but you still haven't answered my question, which is > would you not return to > your home because you wanted to score a political > point? > > > On 7/18/08 > 4:00 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" wrote: > >> Dear > Sonia, > > I don't think I was being either naive or >> offensive. > > best > > shivam > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:58 AM, S. Jabbar >> > wrote: >> Shivam, >> >> I'm surprised that it's > you >> asking this question. It is both offensive and >> naïve to suggest > that >> Pandits are not returning because they are holding on >> to a sense > of >> victimhood to further political ends. Though there are, >> > undoubtedly, >> political formations that benefit from the continuing >> > displacement of the >> Pandits, including the Government of India, it is > wrong >> to suggest that over >> 200,000 people who have lost their homes, > lands and >> livelihood would prefer >> to stay in some dump in the plains > because of >> political gain. >> >> Would you >> think like that if it had > happened to you? I wouldn't. If it was >> safe >> enough for me to return, I > would. The way things are at present no >> Kashmiri >> Pandit would risk > moving back without guarantees of safety to life >> and limb. >> Who will give > them that, the GoI that has been helpless when >> massacres have >> taken > place? Kashmiri Muslims, who themselves are at risk >> from the >> militant's > gun? >> >> Tragically, in the past, every time the GoI announced some >> > package to >> facilitate the return of the Pandits and the press made a > noise >> about a few >> families returning, there were massacres of the > Pandits that had >> remained in >> the valley: Wandhama, Telwani, Sangrampora, > and Nadimarg. The >> killings were >> brutal and they were brutal because the > killers wanted to send >> out a message >> in no uncertain terms. I doubt > anyone in their right minds >> would ignore >> that and put their loved ones > at risk. >> >> The return of the >> Pandits would signal the end of militancy > and a real >> return to normalcy. >> Obviously there are groups that will > oppose this unless >> it is part of a deal >> between India and Pakistan on > Kashmir. Only with a >> formal end to the war, a >> settlement of the Kashmir > issue, with the >> declaration of various packages >> for various groups, can > the Pandits actually >> return. Until then, of course >> individuals are free > to come and go and >> nobody is 'holding a gun to their >> heads,' but that is > surely not the same >> thing. >> >> Interestingly, there are >> many thousand > Kashmiri Muslim men stranded on the >> other side of the border >> who left > Kashmir in the early days of the movement >> and long to return to >> Kashmir. > They fear arrest and torture. I met some of >> them when I was in >> > Pakistan. They, too, dare not risk returning until the >> formal end of > the >> war. >> >> With so many lives at stake-- those who have left, those > whose lives >> remain >> hellish in J&K, it is imperative that we keep > pressuring the >> governments of >> India & Pakistan to settle this issue. > Sadly, the momentum >> has been lost >> because of domestic compulsions in > both countries, and I don't >> see things >> getting resolved in a > hurry. >> >> -sj >> >> >> On 7/17/08 6:42 PM, >> "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" > wrote: >> >>> While a typo can be >> ignored, the > question is worth asking: what >>> prevents >> pandits from being >> > 'faciliated' to return? Militancy has declined, >>> nobody is >> holding a > gun >> to Pandits' temples and quita few happily >>> (especially >> > businessmen) are >> spending six months in the Valley and six in >>> Delhi. > But >> many. Why has the >> package of Rs. 16,000 crores been rejected? Do >>> > Pandits >> even want to >> reurn, considering 70% have sold their land back > home? >>> And why >> don't they >> want to return, considering they can buy > land? Is it >>> political >> reasons >> rather than safety? Is is that many > non-Jammu migrants are >>> well >> settled >> in Delhi, Pune, Bangalore, New > York? Is it that returning would >>> mean >> >> giving up the political uses > of victimhood and let 'separatists' say, >>> >> "Look, >> even the Pandits are > back." I am not making these allegations but >>> >> asking >> questions. Like > all communities the Pandits are a divided >>> >> community. >> Kshmendra Kaul > does not represent them all. Everyone has >> different >>> reasons >> and > different circumstances. >> >> best >> shivam >> >> >> On >> 7/16/08, > Kshmendra Kaul >>> wrote: >>> >>> A >> > "International Kashmir Peace >>> Conference" was held Washington D.C, >>> >> > 14th-15th July. It adopted the >>> "Washington Declaration". >>> >>> The > website >> of "Association of Humanitarian >>> Lawyers", one of the > sponsors >>> of the >> Conference, furnishes the text of the >>> > "Declaration" >>> >>> Point 8 in it >> reads "The Conference calls for > protection of >>> all minorities. >>> All the >> displaced persons including > Kashmiri bandits should >>> be facilitated >>> to >> return to their ancestral > home." >>> >>> >>> >> http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html >>> >>> > Did not know that >> "bandits" >>> had been displaced out of Kashmir. At > least >>> they are being >> called >>> 'displaced' and not 'migrants' >>> >>> > KK >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open >> discussion >>> list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> To >> subscribe: send >>> an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe >> in the subject >>> > header. >>> To unsubscribe: >>> >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>> >> > >> >> >> >> >> -- >> > /National >> Highway/ >>> http://shivamvij.com/ >> >> > _________________________________________ >> reader-list: >>> an open > discussion >> list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> > To >>> subscribe: >> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in >>> the >> subject header. >> To unsubscribe: >>> >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >>> >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > > > > -- > > /National >> Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > > > > -- /National Highway/ > http://shivamvij.com/ From mail at shivamvij.com Fri Jul 18 16:34:53 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:34:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration In-Reply-To: References: <9c06aab30807180340n594644c3k39da474001c7cf83@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807180404jcffe4bhcc1376bf538a9da@mail.gmail.com> You and I - we are talking in individual terms, ignoring that the inerplay between individuals and communities they are part of is not that simplistic. On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 4:12 PM, S. Jabbar wrote: > Well, then you and I are made of very different stuff...Good luck! > > On 7/18/08 4:10 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" wrote: > >> That is a personal question directed only at me. Yes, perhaps I > wouldn't, >> particularly if I am part of a community that is > overwhelmingly not in favour >> of returning, and I would return only > with a large group. And particularly if >> I am well settled in a job in > Delhi. > > best > shivam > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at >> 4:08 PM, S. Jabbar wrote: >> Ok, your take entirely, >> but you still haven't answered my question, which is >> would you not return to >> your home because you wanted to score a political >> point? >> >> >> On 7/18/08 >> 4:00 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" wrote: >> >>> Dear >> Sonia, >> >> I don't think I was being either naive or >>> offensive. >> >> best >> >> shivam >> >> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:58 AM, S. Jabbar >>> >> wrote: >>> Shivam, >>> >>> I'm surprised that it's >> you >>> asking this question. It is both offensive and >>> naïve to suggest >> that >>> Pandits are not returning because they are holding on >>> to a sense >> of >>> victimhood to further political ends. Though there are, >>> >> undoubtedly, >>> political formations that benefit from the continuing >>> >> displacement of the >>> Pandits, including the Government of India, it is >> wrong >>> to suggest that over >>> 200,000 people who have lost their homes, >> lands and >>> livelihood would prefer >>> to stay in some dump in the plains >> because of >>> political gain. >>> >>> Would you >>> think like that if it had >> happened to you? I wouldn't. If it was >>> safe >>> enough for me to return, I >> would. The way things are at present no >>> Kashmiri >>> Pandit would risk >> moving back without guarantees of safety to life >>> and limb. >>> Who will give >> them that, the GoI that has been helpless when >>> massacres have >>> taken >> place? Kashmiri Muslims, who themselves are at risk >>> from the >>> militant's >> gun? >>> >>> Tragically, in the past, every time the GoI announced some >>> >> package to >>> facilitate the return of the Pandits and the press made a >> noise >>> about a few >>> families returning, there were massacres of the >> Pandits that had >>> remained in >>> the valley: Wandhama, Telwani, Sangrampora, >> and Nadimarg. The >>> killings were >>> brutal and they were brutal because the >> killers wanted to send >>> out a message >>> in no uncertain terms. I doubt >> anyone in their right minds >>> would ignore >>> that and put their loved ones >> at risk. >>> >>> The return of the >>> Pandits would signal the end of militancy >> and a real >>> return to normalcy. >>> Obviously there are groups that will >> oppose this unless >>> it is part of a deal >>> between India and Pakistan on >> Kashmir. Only with a >>> formal end to the war, a >>> settlement of the Kashmir >> issue, with the >>> declaration of various packages >>> for various groups, can >> the Pandits actually >>> return. Until then, of course >>> individuals are free >> to come and go and >>> nobody is 'holding a gun to their >>> heads,' but that is >> surely not the same >>> thing. >>> >>> Interestingly, there are >>> many thousand >> Kashmiri Muslim men stranded on the >>> other side of the border >>> who left >> Kashmir in the early days of the movement >>> and long to return to >>> Kashmir. >> They fear arrest and torture. I met some of >>> them when I was in >>> >> Pakistan. They, too, dare not risk returning until the >>> formal end of >> the >>> war. >>> >>> With so many lives at stake-- those who have left, those >> whose lives >>> remain >>> hellish in J&K, it is imperative that we keep >> pressuring the >>> governments of >>> India & Pakistan to settle this issue. >> Sadly, the momentum >>> has been lost >>> because of domestic compulsions in >> both countries, and I don't >>> see things >>> getting resolved in a >> hurry. >>> >>> -sj >>> >>> >>> On 7/17/08 6:42 PM, >>> "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" >> wrote: >>> >>>> While a typo can be >>> ignored, the >> question is worth asking: what >>>> prevents >>> pandits from being >>> >> 'faciliated' to return? Militancy has declined, >>>> nobody is >>> holding a >> gun >>> to Pandits' temples and quita few happily >>>> (especially >>> >> businessmen) are >>> spending six months in the Valley and six in >>>> Delhi. >> But >>> many. Why has the >>> package of Rs. 16,000 crores been rejected? Do >>>> >> Pandits >>> even want to >>> reurn, considering 70% have sold their land back >> home? >>>> And why >>> don't they >>> want to return, considering they can buy >> land? Is it >>>> political >>> reasons >>> rather than safety? Is is that many >> non-Jammu migrants are >>>> well >>> settled >>> in Delhi, Pune, Bangalore, New >> York? Is it that returning would >>>> mean >>> >>> giving up the political uses >> of victimhood and let 'separatists' say, >>>> >>> "Look, >>> even the Pandits are >> back." I am not making these allegations but >>>> >>> asking >>> questions. Like >> all communities the Pandits are a divided >>>> >>> community. >>> Kshmendra Kaul >> does not represent them all. Everyone has >>> different >>>> reasons >>> and >> different circumstances. >>> >>> best >>> shivam >>> >>> >>> On >>> 7/16/08, >> Kshmendra Kaul >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> A >>> >> "International Kashmir Peace >>>> Conference" was held Washington D.C, >>>> >>> >> 14th-15th July. It adopted the >>>> "Washington Declaration". >>>> >>>> The >> website >>> of "Association of Humanitarian >>>> Lawyers", one of the >> sponsors >>>> of the >>> Conference, furnishes the text of the >>>> >> "Declaration" >>>> >>>> Point 8 in it >>> reads "The Conference calls for >> protection of >>>> all minorities. >>>> All the >>> displaced persons including >> Kashmiri bandits should >>>> be facilitated >>>> to >>> return to their ancestral >> home." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html >>>> >>>> >> Did not know that >>> "bandits" >>>> had been displaced out of Kashmir. At >> least >>>> they are being >>> called >>>> 'displaced' and not 'migrants' >>>> >>>> >> KK >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>>> >> reader-list: an open >>> discussion >>>> list on media and the city. >>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To >>> subscribe: send >>>> an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe >>> in the subject >>>> >> header. >>>> To unsubscribe: >>>> >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >> /National >>> Highway/ >>>> http://shivamvij.com/ >>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: >>>> an open >> discussion >>> list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >> To >>>> subscribe: >>> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >>>> the >>> subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: >>>> >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>>> >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> /National >>> Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > /National Highway/ >> http://shivamvij.com/ > > > > -- /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Jul 18 16:34:13 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:04:13 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to theirancestral home - Washington declaration In-Reply-To: References: <9c06aab30807180340n594644c3k39da474001c7cf83@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Behen Sonia, this is the problem with sponsored journalists who have a mission to complete, not social harmony, create issues so that they can study the issues with further sponsorship. ?. Kashmir has seen for centuries harmonious society of hindus and muslims having the joys of life, till the division of nation, later the faith based militancy ignored humanitarian concerns, led by a pandit, in jawahar lal Nehru.If Shivam has visited the transit camps in Delhi or even in Gujarath, his views may change a little. ? Even in recent times a kashmiri muslim loves tourists, is a good host, because his rozi-roti is dependent on him inspite all rhetorical talks by separatist leaders. kashmir has highest economic benefits for its society from tourism.Ofcourse sponsored journalists who have some better( ? ) motives than social harmony always provoke society and have fun in other individuals miseries in the cozy comfort of sponsorship. In Gujarath where the muslims adjusted to the society they are living in wounds heal in both the communities if the secular journalists stop opening them at regular intervals for electoral gains, if the anchors aspiring for Padma awards stop the propaganda of Modi being anti muslim, if the social scientists understand and interpret the stats available without any baggage of pleasing the political party which lives on, tries to gain on vote banks.! Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: "S. Jabbar" Date: Friday, July 18, 2008 4:14 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to theirancestral home - Washington declaration To: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् Cc: Sarai > Well, then you and I are made of very different stuff...Good luck! > > On 7/18/08 4:10 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" > wrote: > > That is a personal question directed only at me. Yes, perhaps I > wouldn't, > > particularly if I am part of a community that is > overwhelmingly not in favour > > of returning, and I would return only > with a large group. And particularly if > > I am well settled in a job in > Delhi. > > best > shivam > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at > > 4:08 PM, S. Jabbar wrote: > > Ok, your take entirely, > > but you still haven't answered my question, which is > > would you not return to > > your home because you wanted to score a political > > point? > > > > > > On 7/18/08 > > 4:00 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" wrote: > > > >> Dear > > Sonia, > > > > I don't think I was being either naive or > >> offensive. > > > > best > > > > shivam > > > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:58 AM, S. Jabbar > >> > > wrote: > >> Shivam, > >> > >> I'm surprised that it's > > you > >> asking this question. It is both offensive and > >> naïve to suggest > > that > >> Pandits are not returning because they are holding on > >> to a sense > > of > >> victimhood to further political ends. Though there are, > >> > > undoubtedly, > >> political formations that benefit from the continuing > >> > > displacement of the > >> Pandits, including the Government of India, it is > > wrong > >> to suggest that over > >> 200,000 people who have lost their homes, > > lands and > >> livelihood would prefer > >> to stay in some dump in the plains > > because of > >> political gain. > >> > >> Would you > >> think like that if it had > > happened to you? I wouldn't. If it was > >> safe > >> enough for me to return, I > > would. The way things are at present no > >> Kashmiri > >> Pandit would risk > > moving back without guarantees of safety to life > >> and limb. > >> Who will give > > them that, the GoI that has been helpless when > >> massacres have > >> taken > > place? Kashmiri Muslims, who themselves are at risk > >> from the > >> militant's > > gun? > >> > >> Tragically, in the past, every time the GoI announced some > >> > > package to > >> facilitate the return of the Pandits and the press made a > > noise > >> about a few > >> families returning, there were massacres of the > > Pandits that had > >> remained in > >> the valley: Wandhama, Telwani, Sangrampora, > > and Nadimarg. The > >> killings were > >> brutal and they were brutal because the > > killers wanted to send > >> out a message > >> in no uncertain terms. I doubt > > anyone in their right minds > >> would ignore > >> that and put their loved ones > > at risk. > >> > >> The return of the > >> Pandits would signal the end of militancy > > and a real > >> return to normalcy. > >> Obviously there are groups that will > > oppose this unless > >> it is part of a deal > >> between India and Pakistan on > > Kashmir. Only with a > >> formal end to the war, a > >> settlement of the Kashmir > > issue, with the > >> declaration of various packages > >> for various groups, can > > the Pandits actually > >> return. Until then, of course > >> individuals are free > > to come and go and > >> nobody is 'holding a gun to their > >> heads,' but that is > > surely not the same > >> thing. > >> > >> Interestingly, there are > >> many thousand > > Kashmiri Muslim men stranded on the > >> other side of the border > >> who left > > Kashmir in the early days of the movement > >> and long to return to > >> Kashmir. > > They fear arrest and torture. I met some of > >> them when I was in > >> > > Pakistan. They, too, dare not risk returning until the > >> formal end of > > the > >> war. > >> > >> With so many lives at stake-- those who have left, those > > whose lives > >> remain > >> hellish in J&K, it is imperative that we keep > > pressuring the > >> governments of > >> India & Pakistan to settle this issue. > > Sadly, the momentum > >> has been lost > >> because of domestic compulsions in > > both countries, and I don't > >> see things > >> getting resolved in a > > hurry. > >> > >> -sj > >> > >> > >> On 7/17/08 6:42 PM, > >> "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" > > wrote: > >> > >>> While a typo can be > >> ignored, the > > question is worth asking: what > >>> prevents > >> pandits from being > >> > > 'faciliated' to return? Militancy has declined, > >>> nobody is > >> holding a > > gun > >> to Pandits' temples and quita few happily > >>> (especially > >> > > businessmen) are > >> spending six months in the Valley and six in > >>> Delhi. > > But > >> many. Why has the > >> package of Rs. 16,000 crores been rejected? Do > >>> > > Pandits > >> even want to > >> reurn, considering 70% have sold their land back > > home? > >>> And why > >> don't they > >> want to return, considering they can buy > > land? Is it > >>> political > >> reasons > >> rather than safety? Is is that many > > non-Jammu migrants are > >>> well > >> settled > >> in Delhi, Pune, Bangalore, New > > York? Is it that returning would > >>> mean > >> > >> giving up the political uses > > of victimhood and let 'separatists' say, > >>> > >> "Look, > >> even the Pandits are > > back." I am not making these allegations but > >>> > >> asking > >> questions. Like > > all communities the Pandits are a divided > >>> > >> community. > >> Kshmendra Kaul > > does not represent them all. Everyone has > >> different > >>> reasons > >> and > > different circumstances. > >> > >> best > >> shivam > >> > >> > >> On > >> 7/16/08, > > Kshmendra Kaul > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> A > >> > > "International Kashmir Peace > >>> Conference" was held Washington D.C, > >>> > >> > > 14th-15th July. It adopted the > >>> "Washington Declaration". > >>> > >>> The > > website > >> of "Association of Humanitarian > >>> Lawyers", one of the > > sponsors > >>> of the > >> Conference, furnishes the text of the > >>> > > "Declaration" > >>> > >>> Point 8 in it > >> reads "The Conference calls for > > protection of > >>> all minorities. > >>> All the > >> displaced persons including > > Kashmiri bandits should > >>> be facilitated > >>> to > >> return to their ancestral > > home." > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html > >>> > >>> > > Did not know that > >> "bandits" > >>> had been displaced out of Kashmir. At > > least > >>> they are being > >> called > >>> 'displaced' and not 'migrants' > >>> > >>> > > KK > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> _________________________________________ > >>> > > reader-list: an open > >> discussion > >>> list on media and the city. > >>> > > Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To > >> subscribe: send > >>> an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe > >> in the subject > >>> > > header. > >>> To unsubscribe: > >>> > >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: > >>> > >> > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > > /National > >> Highway/ > >>> http://shivamvij.com/ > >> > >> > > _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: > >>> an open > > discussion > >> list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> > > To > >>> subscribe: > >> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in > >>> the > >> subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: > >>> > >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >>> > >> > > > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > > > /National > >> Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > /National Highway/ > > http://shivamvij.com/ > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 16:38:26 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:38:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807180404jcffe4bhcc1376bf538a9da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: And you are ignoring the fact that the community, though small, is not homogenous! Anyway Shivam, it seems you have made up your mind about why the Pandits have not returned long before you wrote your post, so let us just leave it at that. Best sj On 7/18/08 4:34 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" wrote: > You and I - we are talking in individual terms, ignoring that the inerplay > between individuals and communities they are part of is not that > simplistic. On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 4:12 PM, S. Jabbar > wrote: > Well, then you and I are made of very > different stuff...Good luck! > > On 7/18/08 4:10 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" > wrote: > >> That is a personal question directed only at > me. Yes, perhaps I > wouldn't, >> particularly if I am part of a community > that is > overwhelmingly not in favour >> of returning, and I would return > only > with a large group. And particularly if >> I am well settled in a job > in > Delhi. > > best > shivam > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at >> 4:08 PM, S. > Jabbar wrote: >> Ok, your take entirely, >> but you > still haven't answered my question, which is >> would you not return to >> > your home because you wanted to score a political >> point? >> >> >> On > 7/18/08 >> 4:00 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" wrote: >> >>> > Dear >> Sonia, >> >> I don't think I was being either naive or >>> > offensive. >> >> best >> >> shivam >> >> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:58 AM, S. > Jabbar >>> >> wrote: >>> Shivam, >>> >>> I'm > surprised that it's >> you >>> asking this question. It is both offensive > and >>> naïve to suggest >> that >>> Pandits are not returning because they > are holding on >>> to a sense >> of >>> victimhood to further political ends. > Though there are, >>> >> undoubtedly, >>> political formations that benefit > from the continuing >>> >> displacement of the >>> Pandits, including the > Government of India, it is >> wrong >>> to suggest that over >>> 200,000 > people who have lost their homes, >> lands and >>> livelihood would prefer >>> > to stay in some dump in the plains >> because of >>> political gain. >>> >>> > Would you >>> think like that if it had >> happened to you? I wouldn't. If > it was >>> safe >>> enough for me to return, I >> would. The way things are > at present no >>> Kashmiri >>> Pandit would risk >> moving back without > guarantees of safety to life >>> and limb. >>> Who will give >> them that, the > GoI that has been helpless when >>> massacres have >>> taken >> place? > Kashmiri Muslims, who themselves are at risk >>> from the >>> militant's >> > gun? >>> >>> Tragically, in the past, every time the GoI announced some >>> >> > package to >>> facilitate the return of the Pandits and the press made a >> > noise >>> about a few >>> families returning, there were massacres of the >> > Pandits that had >>> remained in >>> the valley: Wandhama, Telwani, > Sangrampora, >> and Nadimarg. The >>> killings were >>> brutal and they were > brutal because the >> killers wanted to send >>> out a message >>> in no > uncertain terms. I doubt >> anyone in their right minds >>> would ignore >>> > that and put their loved ones >> at risk. >>> >>> The return of the >>> > Pandits would signal the end of militancy >> and a real >>> return to > normalcy. >>> Obviously there are groups that will >> oppose this unless >>> > it is part of a deal >>> between India and Pakistan on >> Kashmir. Only with > a >>> formal end to the war, a >>> settlement of the Kashmir >> issue, with > the >>> declaration of various packages >>> for various groups, can >> the > Pandits actually >>> return. Until then, of course >>> individuals are > free >> to come and go and >>> nobody is 'holding a gun to their >>> heads,' > but that is >> surely not the same >>> thing. >>> >>> Interestingly, there > are >>> many thousand >> Kashmiri Muslim men stranded on the >>> other side > of the border >>> who left >> Kashmir in the early days of the movement >>> > and long to return to >>> Kashmir. >> They fear arrest and torture. I met > some of >>> them when I was in >>> >> Pakistan. They, too, dare not risk > returning until the >>> formal end of >> the >>> war. >>> >>> With so many > lives at stake-- those who have left, those >> whose lives >>> remain >>> > hellish in J&K, it is imperative that we keep >> pressuring the >>> > governments of >>> India & Pakistan to settle this issue. >> Sadly, the > momentum >>> has been lost >>> because of domestic compulsions in >> both > countries, and I don't >>> see things >>> getting resolved in a >> > hurry. >>> >>> -sj >>> >>> >>> On 7/17/08 6:42 PM, >>> "Shivam Vij शिवम् > विज्" >> wrote: >>> >>>> While a typo can be >>> ignored, > the >> question is worth asking: what >>>> prevents >>> pandits from > being >>> >> 'faciliated' to return? Militancy has declined, >>>> nobody > is >>> holding a >> gun >>> to Pandits' temples and quita few happily >>>> > (especially >>> >> businessmen) are >>> spending six months in the Valley and > six in >>>> Delhi. >> But >>> many. Why has the >>> package of Rs. 16,000 > crores been rejected? Do >>>> >> Pandits >>> even want to >>> reurn, > considering 70% have sold their land back >> home? >>>> And why >>> don't > they >>> want to return, considering they can buy >> land? Is it >>>> > political >>> reasons >>> rather than safety? Is is that many >> non-Jammu > migrants are >>>> well >>> settled >>> in Delhi, Pune, Bangalore, New >> York? > Is it that returning would >>>> mean >>> >>> giving up the political uses >> > of victimhood and let 'separatists' say, >>>> >>> "Look, >>> even the Pandits > are >> back." I am not making these allegations but >>>> >>> asking >>> > questions. Like >> all communities the Pandits are a divided >>>> >>> > community. >>> Kshmendra Kaul >> does not represent them all. Everyone has >>> > different >>>> reasons >>> and >> different circumstances. >>> >>> best >>> > shivam >>> >>> >>> On >>> 7/16/08, >> Kshmendra Kaul >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> A >>> >> "International Kashmir > Peace >>>> Conference" was held Washington D.C, >>>> >>> >> 14th-15th July. It > adopted the >>>> "Washington Declaration". >>>> >>>> The >> website >>> of > "Association of Humanitarian >>>> Lawyers", one of the >> sponsors >>>> of > the >>> Conference, furnishes the text of the >>>> >> "Declaration" >>>> >>>> > Point 8 in it >>> reads "The Conference calls for >> protection of >>>> all > minorities. >>>> All the >>> displaced persons including >> Kashmiri bandits > should >>>> be facilitated >>>> to >>> return to their ancestral >> > home." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> > http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html >>>> >>>> >> Did not know > that >>> "bandits" >>>> had been displaced out of Kashmir. At >> least >>>> > they are being >>> called >>>> 'displaced' and not 'migrants' >>>> >>>> >> > KK >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> > _________________________________________ >>>> >> reader-list: an open >>> > discussion >>>> list on media and the city. >>>> >> Critiques & > Collaborations >>>> To >>> subscribe: send >>>> an email to >> > reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe >>> in the subject >>>> >> > header. >>>> To unsubscribe: >>>> >>> >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List > archive: >>>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >> > /National >>> Highway/ >>>> http://shivamvij.com/ >>> >>> >> > _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: >>>> an open >> > discussion >>> list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & > Collaborations >>> >> To >>>> subscribe: >>> send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >>>> the >>> subject > header. >>> To unsubscribe: >>>> >>> >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List > archive: >>>> >>> >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > -- >> >> /National >>> Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > > /National Highway/ >> http://shivamvij.com/ > > > > -- /National Highway/ > http://shivamvij.com/ From mail at shivamvij.com Fri Jul 18 16:41:11 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:41:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration In-Reply-To: References: <9c06aab30807180404jcffe4bhcc1376bf538a9da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807180411o2825a9fdic698806b1238f95d@mail.gmail.com> Sonia, it is me who has been making the point on this list that the Pandits are not a homogenous communuty. And the charge of pre-concieved judgements, I humbly submit, applies just as much to the position you are taking. best shivam On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 4:38 PM, S. Jabbar wrote: > And you are ignoring the fact that the community, though small, is not > homogenous! > > Anyway Shivam, it seems you have made up your mind about why the Pandits > have not returned long before you wrote your post, so let us just leave it > at that. > > Best > sj > > > On 7/18/08 4:34 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" wrote: > >> You and I - we are talking in individual terms, ignoring that the > inerplay >> between individuals and communities they are part of is not > that >> simplistic. > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 4:12 PM, S. Jabbar >> wrote: >> Well, then you and I are made of very >> different stuff...Good luck! >> >> On 7/18/08 4:10 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" >> wrote: >> >>> That is a personal question directed only at >> me. Yes, perhaps I >> wouldn't, >>> particularly if I am part of a community >> that is >> overwhelmingly not in favour >>> of returning, and I would return >> only >> with a large group. And particularly if >>> I am well settled in a job >> in >> Delhi. >> >> best >> shivam >> >> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at >>> 4:08 PM, S. >> Jabbar wrote: >>> Ok, your take entirely, >>> but you >> still haven't answered my question, which is >>> would you not return to >>> >> your home because you wanted to score a political >>> point? >>> >>> >>> On >> 7/18/08 >>> 4:00 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" wrote: >>> >>>> >> Dear >>> Sonia, >>> >>> I don't think I was being either naive or >>>> >> offensive. >>> >>> best >>> >>> shivam >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:58 AM, S. >> Jabbar >>>> >>> wrote: >>>> Shivam, >>>> >>>> I'm >> surprised that it's >>> you >>>> asking this question. It is both offensive >> and >>>> naïve to suggest >>> that >>>> Pandits are not returning because they >> are holding on >>>> to a sense >>> of >>>> victimhood to further political ends. >> Though there are, >>>> >>> undoubtedly, >>>> political formations that benefit >> from the continuing >>>> >>> displacement of the >>>> Pandits, including the >> Government of India, it is >>> wrong >>>> to suggest that over >>>> 200,000 >> people who have lost their homes, >>> lands and >>>> livelihood would prefer >>>> >> to stay in some dump in the plains >>> because of >>>> political gain. >>>> >>>> >> Would you >>>> think like that if it had >>> happened to you? I wouldn't. If >> it was >>>> safe >>>> enough for me to return, I >>> would. The way things are >> at present no >>>> Kashmiri >>>> Pandit would risk >>> moving back without >> guarantees of safety to life >>>> and limb. >>>> Who will give >>> them that, the >> GoI that has been helpless when >>>> massacres have >>>> taken >>> place? >> Kashmiri Muslims, who themselves are at risk >>>> from the >>>> militant's >>> >> gun? >>>> >>>> Tragically, in the past, every time the GoI announced some >>>> >>> >> package to >>>> facilitate the return of the Pandits and the press made a >>> >> noise >>>> about a few >>>> families returning, there were massacres of the >>> >> Pandits that had >>>> remained in >>>> the valley: Wandhama, Telwani, >> Sangrampora, >>> and Nadimarg. The >>>> killings were >>>> brutal and they were >> brutal because the >>> killers wanted to send >>>> out a message >>>> in no >> uncertain terms. I doubt >>> anyone in their right minds >>>> would ignore >>>> >> that and put their loved ones >>> at risk. >>>> >>>> The return of the >>>> >> Pandits would signal the end of militancy >>> and a real >>>> return to >> normalcy. >>>> Obviously there are groups that will >>> oppose this unless >>>> >> it is part of a deal >>>> between India and Pakistan on >>> Kashmir. Only with >> a >>>> formal end to the war, a >>>> settlement of the Kashmir >>> issue, with >> the >>>> declaration of various packages >>>> for various groups, can >>> the >> Pandits actually >>>> return. Until then, of course >>>> individuals are >> free >>> to come and go and >>>> nobody is 'holding a gun to their >>>> heads,' >> but that is >>> surely not the same >>>> thing. >>>> >>>> Interestingly, there >> are >>>> many thousand >>> Kashmiri Muslim men stranded on the >>>> other side >> of the border >>>> who left >>> Kashmir in the early days of the movement >>>> >> and long to return to >>>> Kashmir. >>> They fear arrest and torture. I met >> some of >>>> them when I was in >>>> >>> Pakistan. They, too, dare not risk >> returning until the >>>> formal end of >>> the >>>> war. >>>> >>>> With so many >> lives at stake-- those who have left, those >>> whose lives >>>> remain >>>> >> hellish in J&K, it is imperative that we keep >>> pressuring the >>>> >> governments of >>>> India & Pakistan to settle this issue. >>> Sadly, the >> momentum >>>> has been lost >>>> because of domestic compulsions in >>> both >> countries, and I don't >>>> see things >>>> getting resolved in a >>> >> hurry. >>>> >>>> -sj >>>> >>>> >>>> On 7/17/08 6:42 PM, >>>> "Shivam Vij शिवम् >> विज्" >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> While a typo can be >>>> ignored, >> the >>> question is worth asking: what >>>>> prevents >>>> pandits from >> being >>>> >>> 'faciliated' to return? Militancy has declined, >>>>> nobody >> is >>>> holding a >>> gun >>>> to Pandits' temples and quita few happily >>>>> >> (especially >>>> >>> businessmen) are >>>> spending six months in the Valley and >> six in >>>>> Delhi. >>> But >>>> many. Why has the >>>> package of Rs. 16,000 >> crores been rejected? Do >>>>> >>> Pandits >>>> even want to >>>> reurn, >> considering 70% have sold their land back >>> home? >>>>> And why >>>> don't >> they >>>> want to return, considering they can buy >>> land? Is it >>>>> >> political >>>> reasons >>>> rather than safety? Is is that many >>> non-Jammu >> migrants are >>>>> well >>>> settled >>>> in Delhi, Pune, Bangalore, New >>> York? >> Is it that returning would >>>>> mean >>>> >>>> giving up the political uses >>> >> of victimhood and let 'separatists' say, >>>>> >>>> "Look, >>>> even the Pandits >> are >>> back." I am not making these allegations but >>>>> >>>> asking >>>> >> questions. Like >>> all communities the Pandits are a divided >>>>> >>>> >> community. >>>> Kshmendra Kaul >>> does not represent them all. Everyone has >>>> >> different >>>>> reasons >>>> and >>> different circumstances. >>>> >>>> best >>>> >> shivam >>>> >>>> >>>> On >>>> 7/16/08, >>> Kshmendra Kaul >>>>> >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> A >>>> >>> "International Kashmir >> Peace >>>>> Conference" was held Washington D.C, >>>>> >>>> >>> 14th-15th July. It >> adopted the >>>>> "Washington Declaration". >>>>> >>>>> The >>> website >>>> of >> "Association of Humanitarian >>>>> Lawyers", one of the >>> sponsors >>>>> of >> the >>>> Conference, furnishes the text of the >>>>> >>> "Declaration" >>>>> >>>>> >> Point 8 in it >>>> reads "The Conference calls for >>> protection of >>>>> all >> minorities. >>>>> All the >>>> displaced persons including >>> Kashmiri bandits >> should >>>>> be facilitated >>>>> to >>>> return to their ancestral >>> >> home." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html >>>>> >>>>> >>> Did not know >> that >>>> "bandits" >>>>> had been displaced out of Kashmir. At >>> least >>>>> >> they are being >>>> called >>>>> 'displaced' and not 'migrants' >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> KK >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> _________________________________________ >>>>> >>> reader-list: an open >>>> >> discussion >>>>> list on media and the city. >>>>> >>> Critiques & >> Collaborations >>>>> To >>>> subscribe: send >>>>> an email to >>> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe >>>> in the subject >>>>> >>> >> header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> >>>> >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List >> archive: >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>> >> /National >>>> Highway/ >>>>> http://shivamvij.com/ >>>> >>>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: >>>>> an open >>> >> discussion >>>> list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & >> Collaborations >>>> >>> To >>>>> subscribe: >>>> send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in >>>>> the >>>> subject >> header. >>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> >>>> >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List >> archive: >>>>> >>>> >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> -- >>> >>> /National >>>> Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> /National Highway/ >>> http://shivamvij.com/ >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > /National Highway/ >> http://shivamvij.com/ > > > > -- /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Jul 18 16:47:57 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:17:57 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to theirancestral home - Washington declaration In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807180329g2c683987k69efa5f2ccbd3341@mail.gmail.com> References: <304254.16332.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <"9c06aab30807170612 w3acd492du15b12c4b0f32bb9b"@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807172134q76a0f965xfa027727ea3e3cf9@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807180329g2c683987k69efa5f2ccbd3341@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Shivam's query, why should pandits have separate homeland. ? The answer is straight forward, where any commune is hounded with threats and killings should they not aspire for a safe place to live. ? Still, it is tolerent hindu who is merging in the society with all other communes inspite of best efforts by "secular" media highlighting the plights of pampered muslim"" victims" at the drop of a hat, a extortionist, a killer if apprehended by law keepers, prominent MPs will phone to go "soft" on such arrests, as the votes would suffer. It may be worthwhile to mention here , now, karnataka chief minister in his third budget, but first as BJP CM has taken care of all the sections of the society, no special funds on faith or religion based needs, but issue based needs irrespective of faith and caste has been given priority, let us hope the implementation will also be good and impartial, when each woman gets medicare and help in pregnancy and delivery, each child gets conveyance and books and educaid, each farmer gets assistance irrespective of his caste and faith, support prices for agriculture produce, thus helping the farmer out of the clutches of money lenders. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् Date: Friday, July 18, 2008 4:00 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to theirancestral home - Washington declaration To: Pawan Durani Cc: sarai list > Dear Pawan, > > Many thanks for your reply, although it was directed at Kshmendra, who > has surprisingly not replied so far. Sometimes I wonder whether > Kshmendra exists at all or if he is elusive like the solution to the > Kashmir dispute. > > > Regarding the 16000 crore package , the finer things > > about the package is not known to many people and > > most of the media just caught up with the headlines. > > We may discuss the 16000 crore package sometime else. > > The details have indeed come out: > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=26_4_2008&ItemID=51&cat=1 > > Your attempt to brush this away makes me wonder even more: now when > the government is paying to share substantial costs to return to the > Valley, now that militancy is at its lowest, why don't you return? > More details about how the package would be operationalised are > immaterial because various Pandit leaders have rejected the very idea > outright. > > > When you quote that many Kashmiri hindu businessman spend 6 > > months in Kashmir , i may not disagree that the few people do. > > I am sure you know the percentage of Kashmiri > > Hindu businessmen . Kindly share it with rest of the group. > > My idea is that it is less than 1%. > > Well, I met some such and was told about them. But the point is that > if it is safe for some to live for six months, why is it unsafe for > others to live for twelve months? You can say that a certain district > is still unsafe, you arre afraid, but why can't those in Srinagar want > to return. > > One point you haven't answered is: WHY WOULD SOMEONE WHO HAS SOLD HIS > PROPERTY RETURN? I am told that 7 in 10 migrants have sold their > properties and have thus given up their stake in the valley - > something that the Pandits who refused to migrate are pained about. > What are the reasons for selling property? > > > where they are welcome as tourist > > but not as permanent residents > > This is completely untrue. The local population is in fact guilty that > the Pandits were kicked out in the first place, and the 'separatists' > regret it even more because the Indian government used the plight of > the Pandits as a scoring point against the separatists. > > (For the same reason not a single yatri was attacked, and in fact > Muslims held langars in Srinagar, during nine days of strike, > agitation and CRPF firing in the Valley. It was not so much an act of > charity but a politically calculated act of restraint.) > > > Also once bitten is twice shy , and Kashmiri > > Hindus have been bitten more than 8 times in last 1000 years . > > And the Pandits have been migrating for ages. In my city, Lucknow, > they have had a rich history, as also in Delhi. Not all Pandits are > refugees, and not all pandit refugees live / lived in camps - somehow > the discourse on pandits have stereotyped a hardworking, literate, > upwardly mobile community as refugees and nothing else. > > > This time the return has to be on terms of Kashmiri Hindus. > > And one of the term is a separate homeland with a > > full flow of Indian constitution. > > Pandits did not leave Kashmir in protest of the J&K constitution. In > 1989 Pandits did not say, "Extend Indian Constitution to Kashmir or > we'll leave." They left because of threats of violence and if the > threats of violence have been replaced by calls for return and > assurances of safety, why don't they return? And most refugees > went to > nearby Jammu where the 'full flow' of the Indian Constitution applies > as much as it does in Sopore. There were also Pandits displaced within > the valley many of whom have accepted a rehabilitation package from > the J&K government. > > Why should Pandits have a separate homeland? And if that is what they > want, why shouldn't Kashmir have independence from India? This seems > to be going in the logic of the Partition of India. The kashmir issue > is an unsettled sore thumb of the partition. > > The Pandits were and are a part of the state of Jammu and Kashmir > which had independence for three months, which is the only state to > have its own flag, its own Constitution, rules debarring outsiders > from buying land. It has 28 vacant seats for PoK but this logic is not > extended to the Parliament of India. J&K has a UN observer > mission, it > has an LoC rather than an international border - in short, even the > Constitution of India indirectly admits that kashmir is a disputed > territory. > > Now you can demand a separate homeland for Pandits or demand whatever > whether you are living in Anantnag or Amsterdam. But, again: that is > not why you left Kashmir. You left because of killings and threats, > and now that they are no more, why don;t you return? And cosnidering > you have sold your land, do you even want to return? Would my dear > friend ARK leave Ramjas College and go to Kashmir University - or the > Vaishnu Devi university or the proposed Sharda Peeth for that matter? > If 2500 people who are still there and who never migrated, can live > there, why can't you? > > And Kashmir has something stronger than the 'full flow' of the Indian > Constitution. It has the Indian army, BSF, CRPF at every nook and > corner. > > best > shivam > > > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:04 AM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > > Dear Shivam , > > > > I appreciate your curiosity. > > > > Regarding the 16000 crore package , the finer things about the > package is not known to many people and most of the media just > caught up with the headlines. We may discuss the 16000 crore > package sometime else. > > > > When you quote that many Kashmiri hindu businessman spend 6 > months in Kashmir , i may not disagree that the few people do. I > am sure you know the percentage of Kashmiri Hindu businessmen . > Kindly share it with rest of the group. My idea is that it is less > than 1%.So if less than 1% Kashmiri Hindus visit Kashmir , where > they are welcome as tourist but not as permanent residents , that > should not be a quoting figure for normalcy. > > > > Also once bitten is twice shy , and Kashmiri Hindus have been > bitten more than 8 times in last 1000 years . This time the return > has to be on terms of Kashmiri Hindus.And one of the term is a > separate homeland with a full flow of Indian constitution. > > > > For Kashmiri Hindus , the political reasons do not make any > reason for their non returning . They don't have a representative > in assembly or the national parliament. The reason has everything > to what they had witnessed sometimes back , which made them run > away to save lives and honour. > > > > Regards > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > On 7/17/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > >> > >> While a typo can be ignored, the question is worth asking: what > prevents>> pandits from being 'faciliated' to return? Militancy > has declined, nobody is > >> holding a gun to Pandits' temples and quita few happily > (especially>> businessmen) are spending six months in the Valley > and six in Delhi. But > >> many. Why has the package of Rs. 16,000 crores been rejected? > Do Pandits > >> even want to reurn, considering 70% have sold their land back > home? And why > >> don't they want to return, considering they can buy land? Is it > political>> reasons rather than safety? Is is that many non-Jammu > migrants are well > >> settled in Delhi, Pune, Bangalore, New York? Is it that > returning would mean > >> giving up the political uses of victimhood and let > 'separatists' say, "Look, > >> even the Pandits are back." I am not making these allegations > but asking > >> questions. Like all communities the Pandits are a divided > community.>> Kshmendra Kaul does not represent them all. Everyone > has different reasons > >> and different circumstances. > >> > >> best > >> shivam > >> > >> > >> On 7/16/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > >> > > >> > A "International Kashmir Peace Conference" was held > Washington D.C, > >> > 14th-15th July. It adopted the "Washington Declaration". > >> > > >> > The website of "Association of Humanitarian Lawyers", one of > the sponsors > >> > of the Conference, furnishes the text of the "Declaration" > >> > > >> > Point 8 in it reads "The Conference calls for protection of > all minorities. > >> > All the displaced persons including Kashmiri bandits should > be facilitated > >> > to return to their ancestral home." > >> > > >> > http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html > >> > > >> > Did not know that "bandits" had been displaced out of > Kashmir. At least > >> > they are being called 'displaced' and not 'migrants' > >> > > >> > KK > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > > > > -- > /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From mail at shivamvij.com Fri Jul 18 17:09:19 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:09:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Indian Kashmir In-Reply-To: <663385.58914.qm@web8712.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <663385.58914.qm@web8712.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807180439i380614b4s49d09ac79654dd24@mail.gmail.com> It's all still like 'ancient civilisations', Simran: savage, brutal, lying, killing and maiming for territorial aspirations. On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 2:15 PM, simran chadha wrote: > > they had discovered something similar in the jaffna peninsula, vavuniya, if i remember correctly, on a hilltop, mass graves with bodies decomposed only the skeletal remains. the state insisted an ancient civilization was being discovered until a brass bangle with name - very contemporary fashion was discovered on the skeletons exhumed. some of the dead were duly identified. the army then issued hundreds of coffins, called the priest and duly had the last rites performed with the villagers paying their last respects to whoever it was they had lost, at gunpoint ofcourse. sadly and terrifyingly, this grotesque and macabretragedy seems to be playing time and again. > simran > --- On Tue, 15/7/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Indian Kashmir > To: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" > Cc: "sarai list" , ccs at jkccs.org > Date: Tuesday, 15 July, 2008, 12:53 PM > > With divided polity, the role of 'tribunals" , commisssions is by > itself highly unwarranted for the simple reason, at the election times the > Judges have fudged quite a few reports, like the train burning in Gujarath, > like the sacchar and his jhoota report which addresses the issue in such > partisan ways that the politics of bringing out such reports at the time of > elections becomes an effort to refurbish the tarnished images of culprits > against humans. > > In democratic life, good govrnance should cover every citizen irrespective of > faith, caste or region, when ethics and morals of those in public life are at > new lows, such tribunals with retired and tired individuals becomes a game of > vote catching jargon. The reports that have been gathering dust in the last > sixty years without any results of improvement of citizens as a result of such > tribunal and judicial commission reports is national waste of exchequer and > retired personnels appeasement to gain votes. > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 5:21 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Indian Kashmir > To: Pawan Durani > Cc: sarai list , ccs at jkccs.org > >> Dear Pawan, >> >> The tribunal is only demanding an enquiry to establish whose graves >> these are. Why is the security establishment afraid of an enquiry? >> >> "Unidentified" and 'unidentifiable', are, by the way, > also terms used >> in the discourse on the Pandit killings. See >> http://shivamvij.com/2008/05/10/report-on-pandit-killings- >> rekindles-communal-fissures-in-valley/ >> >> best >> shivam >> >> On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 1:38 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > Shivam , >> > >> > During the days os mass insurgencies , encounters at border >> discrict were >> > very common . it ususally happened when the terrorists used to >> sneak into >> > India in large groups. >> > >> > In each encounter , scores of people used to die .Many bodies >> would remain >> > unidentified and police but usual used to bury them. >> > >> > If today , a different story is eing made of those graves , the >> rest of >> > world should be made aware of the past instead of >> sensationalising the issue >> > to create more distrust and hate. >> > >> > Regards >> > >> > Pawan >> > >> > >> > On 7/12/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear Khurram, >> >> >> >> Thanks for posting this. The Delhi media's conspiracy of > silence >> >> around human rights violations in Kashmir, as also the >> intimidation of >> >> those like you who seek to defend human rights, sadly seems >> reflected>> on this list - this list seems to endlessly list the >> sentiments of >> >> some and is silent on an article like this. >> >> >> >> best >> >> shivam >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Khurram Parvez >> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > A PDF of the article with photos can be found on the > Tribunal >> website>> > at: >> >> > >> >> > >> > http://kashmirprocess.org/news/20080708_MassGravesKashmirChatterji.pdf>> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Disquiet Ghosts: Mass graves in Indian Kashmir >> >> > >> >> > Etala'at, Daily Newspaper, Srinagar, 09 July 2008 >> >> > >> >> > http://etalaat.com/english/Dimensions/1531.html >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Dirt, rubble, thick grass, hillside and flatland, crowded >> with graves. >> >> > Signifiers of military and paramilitary terror, masked from >> the world. >> >> > Constructed by institutions of state to conceal massacre. >> Placed next >> >> > to homes, fields, schools, an army practise range. Unknown, >> unmarked.>> > Over 940 graves in a segment of Baramulla district >> alone. Some >> >> > containing more than one cadaver. Dug by locals, coerced by >> the police, >> >> > on village land. Bodies dragged through the night, some > tortured, >> >> > burnt, desecrated. Circulating mythology claims these graves > >> uniformly>> > house 'foreign militants'. Exhumation and >> identification have not >> >> > occurred in most cases. When undertaken, in sizable >> instances, records >> >> > prove the dead to be local people, ordinary citizens, killed > >> in fake >> >> > encounters. In instances where bodies have been identified > as >> local,>> > non-militant and militant, it demystifies state >> rhetoric that rumours >> >> > these persons to be 'foreign militants', propagating > >> misrepresentation>> > that the demand for self-determination is >> prevailingly external. >> >> > Mourned, cared for, by locals, as 'farz'/duty, as > part of an >> >> > obligation, stated repeatedly, to 'azadi'. > 'Azadi'/freedom to >> determine>> > self and future. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On 18 and 20 June, the International People's Tribunal > on >> Human Rights >> >> > and Justice in Indian-administered Kashmir > ('Tribunal', >> convened in >> >> > April 2008, www.kashmirprocess.org) visited Baramulla and > Kupwara >> >> > district to conduct ongoing fact-finding and verification >> related to >> >> > mass graves at the behest of local communities. The team >> comprised of >> >> > Tribunal Conveners Advocate Parvez Imroz and myself, a staff > >> member,>> > and camera crew. > =3E >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On 18 June, we visited Raja Mohalla in Uri, Baramulla >> district, 110 >> >> > kilometres from Srinagar, where 22 graves were constructed >> between>> > 1996-1997. Then to Quazipora, where 13 bodies were >> stated as buried in >> >> > seven graves in 1991. Then we travelled to Chehal, Bimyar >> village, Uri, >> >> > holding 235 graves. We re-met Atta Mohammad, gravedigger and > >> caretaker>> > at Chehal, who testified that these bodies, brought > >> by the police, >> >> > primarily after dark, were buried between 2002-2006. Atta >> Mohammad said >> >> > that the bodies appear in his nightmares, each in graphic, >> gruesome>> > detail. Terrorised by the task forced upon him, his >> nights are bereft >> >> > of sleep. Then we travelled to Mir Mohalla, Kichama, Sheeri, > >> to the >> >> > main graveyard with 105 graves, stated to hold about 225-250 > >> bodies,>> > buried between 1994-2003, and a smaller graveyard, >> with nine graves, >> >> > adjacent to a sign proclaiming it a 'Model Village'. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On 20 June, we visited the northern district of Kupwara. On >> the way we >> >> > witnessed army convoys, including one of 21+ vehicles. >> Created in 1979 >> >> > through the forking of Baramulla district, approximately >> 5,000 feet >> >> > above sea level, Kupwara borders the Line-of-Control to the >> north and >> >> > west. Between Shamsbari and Pirpanchal mountain ranges, it > is >> one of >> >> > the most heavily militarised zones, about 95 kilometres from > >> Srinagar.>> > Kupwara houses six army camps, as military and >> paramilitary forces >> >> > occupy significant land. Seven interrogation centres have > been >> >> > operational with police stations functioning as additional >> >> > interrogation cells. In Hundwara town, a watchtower surveils > and >> >> > regulates movement. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > In Kupwara, we visited Trehgam village, holding 85-100 >> graves, 24 of >> >> > which are identified, and spoke with community members. >> Trehgam was >> >> > home to Maqbool Bhat (b. 1938), founding figure of the Jammu > >> Kashmir>> > National Liberation Front. Acknowledged as Shaheed-e- >> Kashmir, Bhat is >> >> > labelled a 'terrorist' by certain segments of India. > He >> sought to unite >> >> > the territories of the former princely state of Jammu and >> Kashmir into >> >> > a secular, sovereign, democratic state. Bhat was sentenced > to >> death by >> >> > the Supreme Court of India and hanged in Tihar jail in New >> Delhi on 11 >> >> > February 1984. Maqbool Bhat's nephew, Parvaiz Ahmad > Bhat, >> reminded us >> >> > that Habibullah Bhat, Bhat's brother, was the first case > of >> enforced>> > disappearance before 1989. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > After Trehgam, we reached Regipora around 3 pm and stopped >> for lunch. >> >> > There, two persons introduced themselves as Special Branch >> Kashmir>> > (SBK) and Counter Intelligence Kashmir (CIK) >> personnel, and questioned >> >> > the Tribunal staff member about our visit. After responding, > we >> >> > proceeded to the 'martyrs' graveyard' holding > 258 graves, >> constructed>> > in 1995. This burial ground is meticulously >> ordered, each grave >> >> > numbered. The body of a 20-25 year old youth was buried in >> the first >> >> > week of June, reportedly killed in an encounter in Bamhama >> village.>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > We stopped at a roadside tea stall to speak with local > people >> about the >> >> > graves. Four intelligence personnel questioned us, asking we > >> disclose>> > information about those we had visited. Soon, four >> additional SBK and >> >> > CIK personnel joined the questioning. Other intelligence >> personnel made >> >> > phone calls. By then, about 12 intelligence personnel > gathered. >> >> > Following further questioning we proceeded toward Srinagar. > A car >> >> > followed at a distance. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > We detoured to Sadipora, Kandi, where locals stated that >> around 20 >> >> > bodies were buried. The graveyard, overrun with wild > flowers, >> is part >> >> > of a larger ground used during festivals, including Id. Two >> of four >> >> > bodies, killed in a fake encounter on 29 April 2007, were >> exhumed,>> > identified as locals, contrary to police records >> stating them to be >> >> > 'Pakistani terrorists'. Saidipora holds Riyaz Ahmad > Bhat's grave, >> >> > killed in the encounter, age 19. Police records, per the > First >> >> > Information Report, declared him a 'Pakistani > terrorist'. >> Riyaz Bhat >> >> > was identified by Javeed Ahmed, his brother, as a resident > of >> >> > Kalashpora, Srinagar, based on police photographs from the >> time of >> >> > death. Ahmed travelled with the Tribunal to take us to his >> brother's>> > grave. On his knees Javeed attempted to clear > the >> thick brush. Later, >> >> > in Srinagar, he testified that Bhat had never been involved > in >> >> > militancy. Javeed spoke of grieving, of imprisonment and >> beatings at >> >> > the police station. He asked how he could have saved his >> brother from >> >> > death. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > After Sadiapora, we were stopped at Shangargund, Sopore, at >> about 6.40 >> >> > pm, by three persons in civilian clothing. They forcibly >> boarded the >> >> > car. We were ordered to the Sopore Police Station. There we >> were asked >> >> > to detail our identity, employment, the purpose of the > visit, >> and to >> >> > hand over tapes which, the police alleged, contained >> 'dangerous' and >> >> > 'objectionable' material. We stated that the > Tribunal, a public >> >> > process, was undertaking its work peaceably, lawfully, with >> informed>> > consent, and that we had not visited restricted >> areas. We stated that >> >> > the police had no lawful reason to seize the tapes. We were >> detained>> > for 16 minutes. After several calls to senior police > >> persons, we were >> >> > released. A red Indica car followed us to Sangrama. At > Srinagar, >> >> > Intelligence personnel were stationed at my hotel. On 21 >> June, I was >> >> > followed from the hotel to the Tribunal's office in Lal >> Chowk, where >> >> > about 8 personnel were stationed the entire day questioning >> anyone who >> >> > entered or left the office. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > My mother, residing in Calcutta, received a query regarding > my >> >> > whereabouts from the District Magistrate's Office. I was > >> followed to >> >> > the Srinagar airport on 22 June, and questioned, asked if I >> possessed>> > dual citizenship. I do not. I am a citizen of India > >> and a permanent >> >> > resident of the United States. On 24 June, I arrived in >> Bhubaneswar to >> =3E> > submit a statement to the Commission of Inquiry on the > Kandhamal >> >> > violence against Christians in 2007 in Orissa. There too, > Central >> >> > Intelligence officials persistently inquired after me. In >> April, after >> >> > announcing the Tribunal, I was stopped and harassed at >> Immigration>> > while leaving India for the United States, and >> again on my re-entry in >> >> > June. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > The targeting of the Tribunal has not abated since the >> Amarnath issue >> >> > erupted around 23 June. The volatile proposal to transfer > 800 >> kanals of >> >> > land to the Shrine Board, revoked on 01 July, was supported >> by the >> >> > Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party and Hindu militant >> Shiv Sena. >> >> > Despite the Sena's recent call to Hindus to form suicide > >> squads, it >> >> > faces no sanctions from the state. Kashmiris of diverse >> ethnicities and >> >> > religions dissented the Amarnath land transfer. Community >> leaders in >> >> > Kashmir explained that their stance against the proposal is >> not in >> >> > dissent to Hindu pilgrims, but a repressive state. During > the >> Amarnath>> > land transfer protests, civil disobedience > paralleled >> that of 1989, >> >> > amid severe repression. On 30 June, in curfew-like >> conditions, we met >> >> > with two families in Srinagar who narrated that the police >> had shot >> >> > dead their sons. At one place, in the old city, while the > men >> took the >> >> > body for burial late at night, the police returned and > destroyed >> >> > property and molested women. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On 30 June, at about 10:10 pm, Parvez Imroz and his family > were >> >> > attacked at home by state forces, who fired three shots and >> hurled a >> >> > grenade while exiting when family and community interrupted > their >> >> > attempts. Neighbours reported seeing one large armoured >> vehicle and two >> >> > Gypsy cars, and men in CRPF (Central Reserve Police Force) >> and SOG >> >> > (Special Operations Group) uniforms. This murder attempt is > an >> >> > escalation in the forms of state-led intimidation and >> targeting aimed >> >> > at Advocate Imroz. It is an attempt to make the Tribunal >> vulnerable and >> >> > instil fear in us in an attempt to stop this process. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On 01 July, we met at Khurram Parvez's home before > addressing >> a press >> >> > conference. Outside, jeeps with plainclothes men continued > their >> >> > observation, accompanied by a jeep with armed men in > uniform. >> Later,>> > Advocate Imroz, Khurram Parvez, Advocate Mihir Desai, >> and I went to the >> >> > police station to lodge a First Information Report. We were > not >> >> > permitted to do so. For security reasons, Parvez Imroz is > not >> staying>> > at home. Khurram Parvez remains under surveillance. I > >> must allow for >> >> > distance before revisiting the graves. On 04 July, sitting > on >> a plane >> >> > at Delhi International Airport, waiting to take-off, I >> received a phone >> >> > call on my India mobile, caller 'Unknown': > "Madam, we know you're >> >> > leaving. Think wisely before coming back". >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Orders to unnerve the leadership of the International >> Tribunal by the >> >> > Government of India's intelligence and security >> administration appear >> >> > to be generated at the highest levels. The general policy of >> >> > surveillance should not be used as a pretext to create >> obstacles for >> >> > our work. As India argues for a seat on the United Nations >> Security>> > Council, the Government of India, as 'Frontline >> Defenders' stated in >> >> > their recent alert supporting the Tribunal, must adhere to >> its own >> >> > repeated commitment to peace in Kashmir and international >> conventions>> > and laws. It must uphold democratic governance > and >> safeguard human >> >> > rights. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Advocate Imroz, Khurram Parvez, other members of the > Tribunal >> team,>> > have long experienced injustices for their > extraordinary >> work as human >> >> > rights defenders. A lauded human rights lawyer, Parvez Imroz > has >> >> > survived two, now three, assassination attempts, the first > from >> >> > militants. Since 2005, his passport has been denied. Khurram > >> Parvez>> > lost his leg in a landmine incident. Gautam Navlakha >> and Zahir-Ud-Din >> >> > have been intimidated and threatened, as has Mihir Desai, in > >> their>> > larger work. It is noteworthy that the Government of >> India is adding >> >> > intimidation to the death and rape threats delivered me by > Hindu >> >> > extremists for human rights work. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > The work of the Tribunal is >> >> > an act of conscience and accountability, fraught with the >> charge of >> >> > complex and violent histories. Its mandate, in documenting >> Kashmir's>> > present, is to chronicle the fabric of >> militarisation, status of human >> >> > rights, and legal, political, militaristic 'states of >> exception'. The >> >> > Tribunal's work will continue through the coming months. > We have >> >> > received extensive solidarity from civil society; >> victims/survivors, at >> >> > street corners, from villagers, ordinary citizens, those >> committed to >> >> > justice. Each life in Kashmir has a story to tell. The >> subjugation of >> >> > civil society has produced magnificent ethical resistance. >> The state >> >> > cannot combat every individual. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Nearly two decades of genocidal violence record 70,000+ > dead, >> 8,000+>> > disappeared, 60,000+ tortured, 50,000+ orphaned, >> incalculable>> > sexualised and gendered violence, a very high >> rate of people with >> >> > suicidal behaviours; hundreds of thousands displaced; >> violations of >> >> > promises, laws, conventions, agreements, treaties; mass >> graves; mile >> >> > upon mile of barbed wire; fear, suppression of varied > demands for >> >> > participation to determine Kashmir's future, spirals of > violence, >> >> > protracted silence. Last year, Kashmir's only hospital > with >> services>> > for mental health received 68,000 patients. Profound > >> social, economic, >> >> > and psychological consequences, and an intense isolation > have >> impacted>> > private, public, and everyday life. It has generated > >> brutal resistance >> >> > on the part of groups that have engaged in violent > militancy. >> >> > Repressions of struggles for self-determination and > international >> >> > policies/politics have yielded severe consequences, creating > >> a juncture >> >> > at which the failure of governance intersects with a culture > >> of grief. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Torture survivors, non-militants and former militants, that > I >> met with >> >> > testified to the sadism of the forces. Reportedly, a man, >> hung upside >> >> > down, had petrol injected through his anus. Water-boarding, >> mutilation,>> > rape of women, children, and men, starvation, >> psychological torture. >> >> > Brutalised, 'healed', to be brutalised again. An > eagle tattoo >> on the >> >> > arm of a man was reportedly identified by an army officer as > >> a symbol >> >> > of Pakistan-held Azad Kashmir, even as the man clarified the > >> tattoo was >> >> > from his childhood. The skin containing it was burned. The >> officer, the >> >> > man stated, said: "When you look at this, think of > azadi". A >> mother,>> > reportedly asked to watch her daughter's rape by > army >> personnel,>> > pleaded for her release. They refused. She pleaded > >> that she could not >> >> > watch, asking to be sent out of the room or be killed. We >> were told >> >> > that the soldier pointed a gun to her forehead, stating he >> would grant >> >> > her wish, and shot her before they proceeded to rape the >> daughter. We >> >> > also spoke with persons violated by militants. One man > stated >> that>> > people's experiences with the reprehensible > atrocities of >> militancy do >> >> > not imply the abdication of their desire for self- >> determination. This, >> >> > he stated, is a mistake the state makes, conflating > militancy >> with the >> >> > intent for self-determination. He clarified that neither is >> >> > self-determination an indication of allegiance to Pakistan, >> largely to >> >> > the contrary. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > The continuing and daunting presence of military and > paramilitary >> >> > forces, increased and sophisticated surveillance, merges > with >> pervasive>> > and immense suffering and anger of people in >> villages, towns, and >> >> > cities across Kashmir. Parallel to the presence of 500,000 >> troops and >> >> > commitment to nuclearisation, official figures state that >> there are >> >> > about 450 militants in Kashmir and that demilitarisation is >> underway.>> > In March 2007, three government committees on >> demilitarisation resolved >> >> > that the 'low intensity war continues', placing in > limbo troop >> >> > reduction and the repealment of draconian laws -- the Armed >> Forces>> > Special Powers Act, 1958, imposed in Jammu and Kashmir > >> in December >> >> > 1990, and the Disturbed Areas Act, 1976, enacted in 1992. > Local >> >> > realities reflect that these laws and the military seek to >> control the >> >> > general population with impunity. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Kashmir is increasingly defined as a 'post-conflict' > zone. >> >> > 'Post-conflict' is not the propagation of tourism > toward an overt >> >> > display of nationalism. Post-conflict is a space in which to > >> heal,>> > reflect, and enable civil society participation in >> determining peace >> >> > and justice. The graves speak to those that listen. Those >> haunted by >> >> > history are called to remember. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > (Dr. >> >> > Angana Chatterji is associate professor of Social and > Cultural >> >> > Anthropology at the California Institute of Integral Studies > and >> >> > co-convener of the International People's Tribunal in > Kashmir.) >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: > >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 17:12:17 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:12:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807180411o2825a9fdic698806b1238f95d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: That people are too afraid to return? I really don't understand why you find that mysterious! Why do you think Muslims continue to live in cramped camps in Gujarat, or the victims of the Janjaweed in Darfur for that matter, to score some silly brownie point? If your answer is yes, then you must be right, I am guilty of a pre-conceived judgment!! And now, I humbly submit that I'd like to end this here, or if you still want to thrash this out then we don't subject the rest of the list to something which is evidently leading nowhere. Best regards sj On 7/18/08 4:41 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" wrote: > Sonia, it is me who has been making the point on this list that the Pandits > are not a homogenous communuty. And the charge of pre-concieved judgements, I > humbly submit, applies just as much to the position you are > taking. best shivam On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 4:38 PM, S. Jabbar > wrote: > And you are ignoring the fact that the > community, though small, is not > homogenous! > > Anyway Shivam, it seems you > have made up your mind about why the Pandits > have not returned long before > you wrote your post, so let us just leave it > at that. > > Best > sj > > > On > 7/18/08 4:34 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" wrote: > >> You > and I - we are talking in individual terms, ignoring that the > inerplay >> > between individuals and communities they are part of is not > that >> > simplistic. > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 4:12 PM, S. Jabbar >> > wrote: >> Well, then you and I are made of very >> > different stuff...Good luck! >> >> On 7/18/08 4:10 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् > विज्" >> wrote: >> >>> That is a personal question > directed only at >> me. Yes, perhaps I >> wouldn't, >>> particularly if I am > part of a community >> that is >> overwhelmingly not in favour >>> of > returning, and I would return >> only >> with a large group. And particularly > if >>> I am well settled in a job >> in >> Delhi. >> >> best >> shivam >> >> > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at >>> 4:08 PM, S. >> Jabbar > wrote: >>> Ok, your take entirely, >>> but you >> still haven't answered my > question, which is >>> would you not return to >>> >> your home because you > wanted to score a political >>> point? >>> >>> >>> On >> 7/18/08 >>> 4:00 PM, > "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" wrote: >>> >>>> >> Dear >>> > Sonia, >>> >>> I don't think I was being either naive or >>>> >> > offensive. >>> >>> best >>> >>> shivam >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:58 > AM, S. >> Jabbar >>>> >>> wrote: >>>> > Shivam, >>>> >>>> I'm >> surprised that it's >>> you >>>> asking this > question. It is both offensive >> and >>>> naïve to suggest >>> that >>>> > Pandits are not returning because they >> are holding on >>>> to a sense >>> > of >>>> victimhood to further political ends. >> Though there are, >>>> >>> > undoubtedly, >>>> political formations that benefit >> from the > continuing >>>> >>> displacement of the >>>> Pandits, including the >> > Government of India, it is >>> wrong >>>> to suggest that over >>>> 200,000 >> > people who have lost their homes, >>> lands and >>>> livelihood would > prefer >>>> >> to stay in some dump in the plains >>> because of >>>> > political gain. >>>> >>>> >> Would you >>>> think like that if it had >>> > happened to you? I wouldn't. If >> it was >>>> safe >>>> enough for me to > return, I >>> would. The way things are >> at present no >>>> Kashmiri >>>> > Pandit would risk >>> moving back without >> guarantees of safety to life >>>> > and limb. >>>> Who will give >>> them that, the >> GoI that has been helpless > when >>>> massacres have >>>> taken >>> place? >> Kashmiri Muslims, who > themselves are at risk >>>> from the >>>> militant's >>> >> gun? >>>> >>>> > Tragically, in the past, every time the GoI announced some >>>> >>> >> package > to >>>> facilitate the return of the Pandits and the press made a >>> >> > noise >>>> about a few >>>> families returning, there were massacres of > the >>> >> Pandits that had >>>> remained in >>>> the valley: Wandhama, > Telwani, >> Sangrampora, >>> and Nadimarg. The >>>> killings were >>>> brutal > and they were >> brutal because the >>> killers wanted to send >>>> out a > message >>>> in no >> uncertain terms. I doubt >>> anyone in their right > minds >>>> would ignore >>>> >> that and put their loved ones >>> at > risk. >>>> >>>> The return of the >>>> >> Pandits would signal the end of > militancy >>> and a real >>>> return to >> normalcy. >>>> Obviously there are > groups that will >>> oppose this unless >>>> >> it is part of a deal >>>> > between India and Pakistan on >>> Kashmir. Only with >> a >>>> formal end to > the war, a >>>> settlement of the Kashmir >>> issue, with >> the >>>> > declaration of various packages >>>> for various groups, can >>> the >> > Pandits actually >>>> return. Until then, of course >>>> individuals are >> > free >>> to come and go and >>>> nobody is 'holding a gun to their >>>> > heads,' >> but that is >>> surely not the same >>>> thing. >>>> >>>> > Interestingly, there >> are >>>> many thousand >>>Kashmiri Muslim men > stranded on the >>>> other side >> of the border >>>> who left >>> Kashmir in > the early days of the movement >>>> >> and long to return to >>>> Kashmir. >>> > They fear arrest and torture. I met >> some of >>>> them when I was > in >>>> >>> Pakistan. They, too, dare not risk >> returning until the >>>> > formal end of >>> the >>>> war. >>>> >>>> With so many >> lives at stake-- > those who have left, those >>> whose lives >>>> remain >>>> >> hellish in J&K, > it is imperative that we keep >>> pressuring the >>>> >> governments of >>>> > India & Pakistan to settle this issue. >>> Sadly, the >> momentum >>>> has > been lost >>>> because of domestic compulsions in >>> both >> countries, and I > don't >>>> see things >>>> getting resolved in a >>> >> hurry. >>>> >>>> > -sj >>>> >>>> >>>> On 7/17/08 6:42 PM, >>>> "Shivam Vij शिवम् >> विज्" >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> While a typo can be >>>> ignored, >> > the >>> question is worth asking: what >>>>> prevents >>>> pandits from >> > being >>>> >>> 'faciliated' to return? Militancy has declined, >>>>> nobody >> > is >>>> holding a >>> gun >>>> to Pandits' temples and quita few > happily >>>>> >> (especially >>>> >>> businessmen) are >>>> spending six > months in the Valley and >> six in >>>>> Delhi. >>> But >>>> many. Why has > the >>>> package of Rs. 16,000 >> crores been rejected? Do >>>>> >>> > Pandits >>>> even want to >>>> reurn, >> considering 70% have sold their land > back >>> home? >>>>> And why >>>> don't >> they >>>> want to return, > considering they can buy >>> land? Is it >>>>> >> political >>>> reasons >>>> > rather than safety? Is is that many >>> non-Jammu >> migrants are >>>>> > well >>>> settled >>>> in Delhi, Pune, Bangalore, New >>> York? >> Is it that > returning would >>>>> mean >>>> >>>> giving up the political uses >>> >> of > victimhood and let 'separatists' say, >>>>> >>>> "Look, >>>> even the > Pandits >> are >>> back." I am not making these allegations but >>>>> >>>> > asking >>>> >> questions. Like >>> all communities the Pandits are a > divided >>>>> >>>> >> community. >>>> Kshmendra Kaul >>> does not represent > them all. Everyone has >>>> >> different >>>>> reasons >>>> and >>> different > circumstances. >>>> >>>> best >>>> >> shivam >>>> >>>> >>>> On >>>> > 7/16/08, >>> Kshmendra Kaul >>>>> >> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> A >>>> >>> "International Kashmir >> Peace >>>>> > Conference" was held Washington D.C, >>>>> >>>> >>> 14th-15th July. It >> > adopted the >>>>> "Washington Declaration". >>>>> >>>>> The >>> website >>>> > of >> "Association of Humanitarian >>>>> Lawyers", one of the >>> > sponsors >>>>> of >> the >>>> Conference, furnishes the text of the >>>>> >>> > "Declaration" >>>>> >>>>> >> Point 8 in it >>>> reads "The Conference calls > for >>> protection of >>>>> all >> minorities. >>>>> All the >>>> displaced > persons including >>> Kashmiri bandits >> should >>>>> be facilitated >>>>> > to >>>> return to their ancestral >>> >> home." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html >>>>> >>>>> >>> Did not know >> > that >>>> "bandits" >>>>> had been displaced out of Kashmir. At >>> > least >>>>> >> they are being >>>> called >>>>> 'displaced' and not > 'migrants' >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> KK >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> > _________________________________________ >>>>> >>> reader-list: an > open >>>> >> discussion >>>>> list on media and the city. >>>>> >>> Critiques > & >> Collaborations >>>>> To >>>> subscribe: send >>>>> an email to >>> >> > reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe >>>> in the > subject >>>>> >>> >> header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List >> > archive: >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > -- >>>> >>> >> /National >>>> Highway/ >>>>> > http://shivamvij.com/ >>>> >>>> >>> >> > _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: >>>>> an > open >>> >> discussion >>>> list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & >> > Collaborations >>>> >>> To >>>>> subscribe: >>>> send an email to >> > reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in >>>>> the >>>> subject >> > header. >>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List >> > archive: >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> > >>> >> -- >>> >>> /National >>>> Highway/ > http://shivamvij.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> /National > Highway/ >>> http://shivamvij.com/ >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > /National > Highway/ >> http://shivamvij.com/ > > > > -- /National Highway/ > http://shivamvij.com/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 19:26:23 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:26:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807180329g2c683987k69efa5f2ccbd3341@mail.gmail.com> References: <304254.16332.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <9c06aab30807170612w3acd492du15b12c4b0f32bb9b@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807172134q76a0f965xfa027727ea3e3cf9@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807180329g2c683987k69efa5f2ccbd3341@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807180656i7d23c2ddncad9ea1fd9804e47@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shivam, You create too much ideas. Trust,Kshemendra does exist. Anyways, for some of your questions regarding the package and non return of Kashmiri Hindus to their homeland i quote the following :- The way the package was declared in Akhnoor, caused bad feelings against Kashmiri Hindus, rather than acting as a balm on their wounds. Wittingly or unwittingly, the announcement tried to pit the interests of displaced Kashmiri Hindus against aggrieved and devastated border migrants, PoK refugees or internally displaced Hindus of Jammu. The so-called package trivializes the wholesale religious cleansing of Kashmiri Hindus and conveys a spirit of abdication of responsibility by the government to reverse the genocide of Kashmiri Hindus. By reducing the issue of genocide to merely constructing a shelter in Kashmir Valley, that too in hostile environs, the UPA government has displayed lack of vision in confronting the larger challenge of Jihadi terrorism. If having a house in Kashmir was the only problem for Kashmiri Hindus then none amongst them would have left Kashmir in 1990. Why did not even a single Kashmiri Hindu family return to the so-called clusters in Budgam and Mattan? The real issues linked to the permanent return of the Kashmiri Hindus are : tackling of all dimensions of terrorism, decommunalisation of the social milieu in the Valley and creating a viable political and economic dispensation for Kashmiri Hindus, in order to ensure no future refoulment. The UPA government by announcing this package has demonstrated its inaptitude and abject failure in comprehending the real challenges to the return of Kashmiri Hindus. The Government seems to have completely ignored the concerns and apprehensions, Panun Kashmir raised during the Round Table Conferences and Working Group meetings. It requires national vision and will to respond to the challenges of religious cleansing of Hindus living in the only Muslim majority state of India. Gimmicks like announcing funds for housing societies in the Valley for Kashmiri Hindus, knowing well that none accepted them during past two decades, will only complicate the issues. In the prelude to coming elections in the State and the Centre, Kashmiri Hindus expected those at the helm to be more clear and forthright in setting an agenda of strategic reconstruction and nation building in the state. The government has ironically announced availability of funds where there are no takers. It has desisted from announcing the relief, where it was required the most. It should have addressed the issues of forcible and fraudulent grab of Pandit property and shrines, end to the process of acquiring Pandit property for so-called public utility purposes by the State government, compensation and release of rental arrears for Hindu houses occupied by the security forces, waving of loans and income-tax for traders, comprehensive employement package, passing of the Protection of Shrines and Temples Bill, etc. etc. It should have considered the primary demand of setting up a Commission of Inquiry into the core issue of Hindu Exodus and religious cleansing and fixing the responsibility. The Prime Minister seem to have played into the hands of that section of political elite of Kashmiri Muslims, which irrespective of party affiliations, wants the issue of displacement and religions cleansing of Kashmiri Hindus to be pushed under the carpet. It is this section which has constantly put obstacles to the permanent return of Kashmiri Hindus and addressing their grievances. Creation of Homeland with a union territory status, north and east of river Jhelum in Kashmir valley, remains the only viable option which can help displaced Hindus to return to Kashmir valley. To be continued. Pawan On 7/18/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > Many thanks for your reply, although it was directed at Kshmendra, who > has surprisingly not replied so far. Sometimes I wonder whether > Kshmendra exists at all or if he is elusive like the solution to the > Kashmir dispute. > > > Regarding the 16000 crore package , the finer things > > about the package is not known to many people and > > most of the media just caught up with the headlines. > > We may discuss the 16000 crore package sometime else. > > The details have indeed come out: > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=26_4_2008&ItemID=51&cat=1 > > Your attempt to brush this away makes me wonder even more: now when > the government is paying to share substantial costs to return to the > Valley, now that militancy is at its lowest, why don't you return? > More details about how the package would be operationalised are > immaterial because various Pandit leaders have rejected the very idea > outright. > > > When you quote that many Kashmiri hindu businessman spend 6 > > months in Kashmir , i may not disagree that the few people do. > > I am sure you know the percentage of Kashmiri > > Hindu businessmen . Kindly share it with rest of the group. > > My idea is that it is less than 1%. > > Well, I met some such and was told about them. But the point is that > if it is safe for some to live for six months, why is it unsafe for > others to live for twelve months? You can say that a certain district > is still unsafe, you arre afraid, but why can't those in Srinagar want > to return. > > One point you haven't answered is: WHY WOULD SOMEONE WHO HAS SOLD HIS > PROPERTY RETURN? I am told that 7 in 10 migrants have sold their > properties and have thus given up their stake in the valley - > something that the Pandits who refused to migrate are pained about. > What are the reasons for selling property? > > > where they are welcome as tourist > > but not as permanent residents > > This is completely untrue. The local population is in fact guilty that > the Pandits were kicked out in the first place, and the 'separatists' > regret it even more because the Indian government used the plight of > the Pandits as a scoring point against the separatists. > > (For the same reason not a single yatri was attacked, and in fact > Muslims held langars in Srinagar, during nine days of strike, > agitation and CRPF firing in the Valley. It was not so much an act of > charity but a politically calculated act of restraint.) > > > Also once bitten is twice shy , and Kashmiri > > Hindus have been bitten more than 8 times in last 1000 years . > > And the Pandits have been migrating for ages. In my city, Lucknow, > they have had a rich history, as also in Delhi. Not all Pandits are > refugees, and not all pandit refugees live / lived in camps - somehow > the discourse on pandits have stereotyped a hardworking, literate, > upwardly mobile community as refugees and nothing else. > > > This time the return has to be on terms of Kashmiri Hindus. > > And one of the term is a separate homeland with a > > full flow of Indian constitution. > > Pandits did not leave Kashmir in protest of the J&K constitution. In > 1989 Pandits did not say, "Extend Indian Constitution to Kashmir or > we'll leave." They left because of threats of violence and if the > threats of violence have been replaced by calls for return and > assurances of safety, why don't they return? And most refugees went to > nearby Jammu where the 'full flow' of the Indian Constitution applies > as much as it does in Sopore. There were also Pandits displaced within > the valley many of whom have accepted a rehabilitation package from > the J&K government. > > Why should Pandits have a separate homeland? And if that is what they > want, why shouldn't Kashmir have independence from India? This seems > to be going in the logic of the Partition of India. The kashmir issue > is an unsettled sore thumb of the partition. > > The Pandits were and are a part of the state of Jammu and Kashmir > which had independence for three months, which is the only state to > have its own flag, its own Constitution, rules debarring outsiders > from buying land. It has 28 vacant seats for PoK but this logic is not > extended to the Parliament of India. J&K has a UN observer mission, it > has an LoC rather than an international border - in short, even the > Constitution of India indirectly admits that kashmir is a disputed > territory. > > Now you can demand a separate homeland for Pandits or demand whatever > whether you are living in Anantnag or Amsterdam. But, again: that is > not why you left Kashmir. You left because of killings and threats, > and now that they are no more, why don;t you return? And cosnidering > you have sold your land, do you even want to return? Would my dear > friend ARK leave Ramjas College and go to Kashmir University - or the > Vaishnu Devi university or the proposed Sharda Peeth for that matter? > If 2500 people who are still there and who never migrated, can live > there, why can't you? > > And Kashmir has something stronger than the 'full flow' of the Indian > Constitution. It has the Indian army, BSF, CRPF at every nook and > corner. > > best > shivam > > > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:04 AM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > > Dear Shivam , > > > > I appreciate your curiosity. > > > > Regarding the 16000 crore package , the finer things about the package is > not known to many people and most of the media just caught up with the > headlines. We may discuss the 16000 crore package sometime else. > > > > When you quote that many Kashmiri hindu businessman spend 6 months in > Kashmir , i may not disagree that the few people do. I am sure you know the > percentage of Kashmiri Hindu businessmen . Kindly share it with rest of the > group. My idea is that it is less than 1%.So if less than 1% Kashmiri Hindus > visit Kashmir , where they are welcome as tourist but not as permanent > residents , that should not be a quoting figure for normalcy. > > > > Also once bitten is twice shy , and Kashmiri Hindus have been bitten more > than 8 times in last 1000 years . This time the return has to be on terms of > Kashmiri Hindus.And one of the term is a separate homeland with a full flow > of Indian constitution. > > > > For Kashmiri Hindus , the political reasons do not make any reason for > their non returning . They don't have a representative in assembly or the > national parliament. The reason has everything to what they had witnessed > sometimes back , which made them run away to save lives and honour. > > > > Regards > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > On 7/17/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > >> > >> While a typo can be ignored, the question is worth asking: what prevents > >> pandits from being 'faciliated' to return? Militancy has declined, > nobody is > >> holding a gun to Pandits' temples and quita few happily (especially > >> businessmen) are spending six months in the Valley and six in Delhi. But > >> many. Why has the package of Rs. 16,000 crores been rejected? Do Pandits > >> even want to reurn, considering 70% have sold their land back home? And > why > >> don't they want to return, considering they can buy land? Is it > political > >> reasons rather than safety? Is is that many non-Jammu migrants are well > >> settled in Delhi, Pune, Bangalore, New York? Is it that returning would > mean > >> giving up the political uses of victimhood and let 'separatists' say, > "Look, > >> even the Pandits are back." I am not making these allegations but asking > >> questions. Like all communities the Pandits are a divided community. > >> Kshmendra Kaul does not represent them all. Everyone has different > reasons > >> and different circumstances. > >> > >> best > >> shivam > >> > >> > >> On 7/16/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > >> > > >> > A "International Kashmir Peace Conference" was held Washington D.C, > >> > 14th-15th July. It adopted the "Washington Declaration". > >> > > >> > The website of "Association of Humanitarian Lawyers", one of the > sponsors > >> > of the Conference, furnishes the text of the "Declaration" > >> > > >> > Point 8 in it reads "The Conference calls for protection of all > minorities. > >> > All the displaced persons including Kashmiri bandits should be > facilitated > >> > to return to their ancestral home." > >> > > >> > http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html > >> > > >> > Did not know that "bandits" had been displaced out of Kashmir. At > least > >> > they are being called 'displaced' and not 'migrants' > >> > > >> > KK > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > From tapasrayx at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 20:20:42 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:50:42 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs In-Reply-To: <537771.12809.qm@web8702.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <537771.12809.qm@web8702.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4880ADC2.1020501@gmail.com> Ranjith, Let me tell you upfront that I am an IITan, so that you know the context of my response. However, I have not been an engineer for a long time. That said, I have a couple of things to say. One, I think you should tell us what you mean by 'IT koolies'. That would clarify your thoughts not just on the reservation issue but on the broader issue of what role the IITs should play, if they are playing it now, and if not, what they should do to close the gap. I wrote an article along these lines in The Statesman a few years ago, and will try to dig it up if anyone is interested, which I think is unlikely. But if someone is interested, it would be good if s/he would let me know whether I should post it on the list or email it to her/him. Two, if your use of the phrase 'IT koolies' expresses contempt, which I think it does, it would be helpful if you would explain what is contemptible about being a 'kooly/ie'. I do not think there is anything bad about carrying someone else's load, or pulling someone else's weight as rickshaw pullers do. They are putting in honest labour to earn a living, and are workers like other workers. Unfortunately, I will not be able to take part in this discussion beyond this post for some time. But I will see if any of my IIT friends would be interested in responding. Tapas Ranjith Thankappan wrote: > hi > Few days back Manuwadi director (former) of IIT Madras made a comment “'HRD minister has injected AIDS into IITs” (Please visit this link for news http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumbai/HRD_minister_has_injected_AIDS_into_IITs/articleshow/3176486.cms) > > these are the kind of "meritorious" Directors available to IITs. No wonder IITs produce IT koolies for the developed world and degraded to the extent of brahmanism. what a shame!! > regards > > From pkray11 at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 20:46:28 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:46:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] PUBLIC PROTEST AGAINST THE INDO-US NUCLEAR DEAL Message-ID: <98f331e00807180816j7d34e6bfudaa78609561b81b9@mail.gmail.com> *PUBLIC PROTEST AGAINST THE INDO-US NUCLEAR DEAL* Before the parliament votes on the fate of the government, which has now also become a vote on the nuclear deal with US, the newly formed People's Political Front will organize a public protest against the deal at Jantar Mantar in New Delhi on 20th July, 2008, Sunday, from 11 am to 2 pm followed by a Press Conference at the same place at 2 pm. You're invited to participate in this protest to oppose an anti-democratic, anti-people, anti-poor, anti-environment and anti-peace deal. Kuldip Nayyar, Rajinder Sachar, Swami Agnivesh, Aruna Roy, Yogendra Yadav, Dr. Brahma Dev Sharma, Prof. Banwari Lal Sharma, Rakesh Rafique, Shamsher Singh Bhisht, Ajit Jha (9868920697), Rajendra Ravi (9868200316), Faisal Khan (9313106745) From pkray11 at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 20:59:03 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:59:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Left and the Nuke Deal Message-ID: <98f331e00807180829t72f92c1dha833df3323205a58@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, Below is the link to the index of further links regarding the Left parties' stand on the Indo-US Nuclear Deal. In the index you can find the notes exchanged between the the Left and the UPA Govt on the deal, the aricles and statements. You can also find the campaign folders detailing the various aspects of the deal and its impact. -(http://cpim.org/nuclear/09042007-nuclear-deal.htm)- regards, Prakash From supreet.sethi at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 22:04:28 2008 From: supreet.sethi at gmail.com (s|s) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 22:04:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] pixel war In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0807150249r568a9515w223d30aa4c6834ac@mail.gmail.com> References: <5af37bb0807140526v5a8ddbfq95b19606de20b3c5@mail.gmail.com> <5af37bb0807140526j4499c405n3abd1beab9dacfca@mail.gmail.com> <5af37bb0807140527i673d6012jbcc5b6548d21b849@mail.gmail.com> <5af37bb0807140529g1ed76619p17da8c986382e96e@mail.gmail.com> <5af37bb0807150249r568a9515w223d30aa4c6834ac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: US government photo-shopped its way to a whole war. This seems like minor issue. -- ~preet~ From b_a_r_u_k at yahoo.com Fri Jul 18 23:41:21 2008 From: b_a_r_u_k at yahoo.com (Baruk S. Jacob) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <645979.57196.qm@web54204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> hi radhika, the point, i think, was not reservations for students, but reservations for teaching positions in the IITs. regards, ~baruk http://bottlebroke.blogspot.com --- On Fri, 7/18/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs > To: b_a_r_u_k at yahoo.com > Cc: "sarai" , "Ranjith Thankappan" > Date: Friday, July 18, 2008, 12:35 PM > Reservation and quota is needed, BUT NOT for the individuals > of any caste or faith, IT IS needed to the funds in national > exchequer to provide basic education to all, to give them > opportunity to improve the skill sets, then best of all > communities and castes and faiths will have equal > opportunity to study any professional course with better > grasp and capacity to learn. > > Present system of langda HRD is only to garner votes > with the guise of uplifting the downtrodden, but in > reality, the individuals who get seats can not cope up as > the fundamental education that they got is skewed, > lopsided. > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Baruk S. Jacob" > > Date: Friday, July 18, 2008 12:09 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs > To: sarai , Ranjith Thankappan > > > > Hi Ranjith, > > > > Read the article with interest-I am in the strange > position of > > having seen both sides of the reservation debate, and > am yet to > > really make up my mind. A snippet caught my eye, > though, > > > > "IIT-Delhi professor Pankaj Jalote said > reservation for students > > had to be viewed differently from faculty reservation. > In case of > > students, he said, there is no compromise on the > quality of > > education. "But if selection of faculty is done > on anything else > > but merit, it will affect education," > > > > Do you disagree with this? > > > > Regards, > > > > ~Baruk > > > > http://bottlebroke.blogspot.com > > > > > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, Ranjith Thankappan > > > wrote: > > > From: Ranjith Thankappan > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs > > > To: "sarai" > > > > Date: Friday, July 18, 2008, 8:37 AM > > > hi > > > Few days back Manuwadi director (former) of IIT > Madras made > > > a comment “'HRD minister has injected AIDS > into > > > IITs” (Please visit this link for news > > > > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumbai/HRD_minister_has_injected_AIDS_into_IITs/articleshow/3176486.cms)> > > > >   > > > these are the kind of "meritorious" > Directors > > > available to IITs. No wonder IITs produce IT > koolies for > > > the developed world and degraded to the extent of > > > brahmanism. what a shame!! > > > regards > > > > > > > > > Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to > > > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject > > > header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Jul 19 00:24:28 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 00:24:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70807180656i7d23c2ddncad9ea1fd9804e47@mail.gmail.com> References: <304254.16332.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <9c06aab30807170612w3acd492du15b12c4b0f32bb9b@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807172134q76a0f965xfa027727ea3e3cf9@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30807180329g2c683987k69efa5f2ccbd3341@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70807180656i7d23c2ddncad9ea1fd9804e47@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990807181154r4fa7ef29pc6cad1df192c22d5@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, Apologies if I seem to e taking a side track, but wanted to make some things clear as a 'displaced' person myself: 1. As a Bengali who was born abroad, and who's grand-parents from both sides of the family are from Bangladesh. am very happy to have an Indian passport - though with one grandfather being in the now defunct IFS, that's not surprising. 2. Was born in Vienna, Austria, and spent my 'formative' years all over the place. However, as far as i'm concerned, my country is India, and my city is Delhi, no matter what any one can say. Just as Pawan and other's are Kashmiri's, I am an Indian even though I was not born here and I will fight over that. I was not born here, but India is my identity. I will not argue about borders, or religion or Gods or lack therof. However, having been out of India and here as well, have learnt tha we Indians have an innate undertsanding of the core, and hope that Shivam, Aditya and other will (though Radhikarajen seems to have suddenly lost both language and comprehension skills). At the end of the day, whether we are communists, or leftists or BJP followers or INC followers, we all have to answer to what we truly believe in, and that is what makes the difference. The constitution or any other law is what we as citizens make of it - just as a bus wallah jumps the BRT queue and kills some people - WE make reality. SO what is the reality we want from out heart? Apologies for ending in a question, but some points from Shivam, Sonia, Kshamendra and Pawan have left me open in doubt. Regards, Partha .................................... On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 7:26 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Shivam, > > You create too much ideas. Trust,Kshemendra does exist. > > Anyways, for some of your questions regarding the package and non return of > Kashmiri Hindus to their homeland i quote the following :- > > > The way the package was declared in Akhnoor, caused bad feelings against > Kashmiri Hindus, rather than acting as a balm on their wounds. Wittingly or > unwittingly, the announcement tried to pit the interests of displaced > Kashmiri Hindus against aggrieved and devastated border migrants, PoK > refugees or internally displaced Hindus of Jammu. > > > > The so-called package trivializes the wholesale religious cleansing of > Kashmiri Hindus and conveys a spirit of abdication of responsibility by the > government to reverse the genocide of Kashmiri Hindus. > > > > By reducing the issue of genocide to merely constructing a shelter in > Kashmir Valley, that too in hostile environs, the UPA government has > displayed lack of vision in confronting the larger challenge of Jihadi > terrorism. If having a house in Kashmir was the only problem for Kashmiri > Hindus then none amongst them would have left Kashmir in 1990. Why did not > even a single Kashmiri Hindu family return to the so-called clusters in > Budgam and Mattan? > > > > The real issues linked to the permanent return of the Kashmiri Hindus are : > tackling of all dimensions of terrorism, decommunalisation of the social > milieu in the Valley and creating a viable political and economic > dispensation for Kashmiri Hindus, in order to ensure no future refoulment. > > > > The UPA government by announcing this package has demonstrated its > inaptitude and abject failure in comprehending the real challenges to the > return of Kashmiri Hindus. The Government seems to have completely ignored > the concerns and apprehensions, Panun Kashmir raised during the Round Table > Conferences and Working Group meetings. > > > > It requires national vision and will to respond to the challenges of > religious cleansing of Hindus living in the only Muslim majority state of > India. Gimmicks like announcing funds for housing societies in the Valley > for Kashmiri Hindus, knowing well that none accepted them during past two > decades, will only complicate the issues. In the prelude to coming > elections > in the State and the Centre, Kashmiri Hindus expected those at the helm to > be more clear and forthright in setting an agenda of strategic > reconstruction and nation building in the state. > > > > The government has ironically announced availability of funds where there > are no takers. It has desisted from announcing the relief, where it was > required the most. It should have addressed the issues of forcible and > fraudulent grab of Pandit property and shrines, end to the process of > acquiring Pandit property for so-called public utility purposes by the > State > government, compensation and release of rental arrears for Hindu houses > occupied by the security forces, waving of loans and income-tax for > traders, > comprehensive employement package, passing of the Protection of Shrines and > Temples Bill, etc. etc. It should have considered the primary demand of > setting up a Commission of Inquiry into the core issue of Hindu Exodus and > religious cleansing and fixing the responsibility. > > > > The Prime Minister seem to have played into the hands of that section of > political elite of Kashmiri Muslims, which irrespective of party > affiliations, wants the issue of displacement and religions cleansing of > Kashmiri Hindus to be pushed under the carpet. It is this section which has > constantly put obstacles to the permanent return of Kashmiri Hindus and > addressing their grievances. > > > > Creation of Homeland with a union territory status, north and east of river > Jhelum in Kashmir valley, remains the only viable option which can help > displaced Hindus to return to Kashmir valley. > > To be continued. > > Pawan > > On 7/18/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > Many thanks for your reply, although it was directed at Kshmendra, who > > has surprisingly not replied so far. Sometimes I wonder whether > > Kshmendra exists at all or if he is elusive like the solution to the > > Kashmir dispute. > > > > > Regarding the 16000 crore package , the finer things > > > about the package is not known to many people and > > > most of the media just caught up with the headlines. > > > We may discuss the 16000 crore package sometime else. > > > > The details have indeed come out: > > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=26_4_2008&ItemID=51&cat=1 > > > > Your attempt to brush this away makes me wonder even more: now when > > the government is paying to share substantial costs to return to the > > Valley, now that militancy is at its lowest, why don't you return? > > More details about how the package would be operationalised are > > immaterial because various Pandit leaders have rejected the very idea > > outright. > > > > > When you quote that many Kashmiri hindu businessman spend 6 > > > months in Kashmir , i may not disagree that the few people do. > > > I am sure you know the percentage of Kashmiri > > > Hindu businessmen . Kindly share it with rest of the group. > > > My idea is that it is less than 1%. > > > > Well, I met some such and was told about them. But the point is that > > if it is safe for some to live for six months, why is it unsafe for > > others to live for twelve months? You can say that a certain district > > is still unsafe, you arre afraid, but why can't those in Srinagar want > > to return. > > > > One point you haven't answered is: WHY WOULD SOMEONE WHO HAS SOLD HIS > > PROPERTY RETURN? I am told that 7 in 10 migrants have sold their > > properties and have thus given up their stake in the valley - > > something that the Pandits who refused to migrate are pained about. > > What are the reasons for selling property? > > > > > where they are welcome as tourist > > > but not as permanent residents > > > > This is completely untrue. The local population is in fact guilty that > > the Pandits were kicked out in the first place, and the 'separatists' > > regret it even more because the Indian government used the plight of > > the Pandits as a scoring point against the separatists. > > > > (For the same reason not a single yatri was attacked, and in fact > > Muslims held langars in Srinagar, during nine days of strike, > > agitation and CRPF firing in the Valley. It was not so much an act of > > charity but a politically calculated act of restraint.) > > > > > Also once bitten is twice shy , and Kashmiri > > > Hindus have been bitten more than 8 times in last 1000 years . > > > > And the Pandits have been migrating for ages. In my city, Lucknow, > > they have had a rich history, as also in Delhi. Not all Pandits are > > refugees, and not all pandit refugees live / lived in camps - somehow > > the discourse on pandits have stereotyped a hardworking, literate, > > upwardly mobile community as refugees and nothing else. > > > > > This time the return has to be on terms of Kashmiri Hindus. > > > And one of the term is a separate homeland with a > > > full flow of Indian constitution. > > > > Pandits did not leave Kashmir in protest of the J&K constitution. In > > 1989 Pandits did not say, "Extend Indian Constitution to Kashmir or > > we'll leave." They left because of threats of violence and if the > > threats of violence have been replaced by calls for return and > > assurances of safety, why don't they return? And most refugees went to > > nearby Jammu where the 'full flow' of the Indian Constitution applies > > as much as it does in Sopore. There were also Pandits displaced within > > the valley many of whom have accepted a rehabilitation package from > > the J&K government. > > > > Why should Pandits have a separate homeland? And if that is what they > > want, why shouldn't Kashmir have independence from India? This seems > > to be going in the logic of the Partition of India. The kashmir issue > > is an unsettled sore thumb of the partition. > > > > The Pandits were and are a part of the state of Jammu and Kashmir > > which had independence for three months, which is the only state to > > have its own flag, its own Constitution, rules debarring outsiders > > from buying land. It has 28 vacant seats for PoK but this logic is not > > extended to the Parliament of India. J&K has a UN observer mission, it > > has an LoC rather than an international border - in short, even the > > Constitution of India indirectly admits that kashmir is a disputed > > territory. > > > > Now you can demand a separate homeland for Pandits or demand whatever > > whether you are living in Anantnag or Amsterdam. But, again: that is > > not why you left Kashmir. You left because of killings and threats, > > and now that they are no more, why don;t you return? And cosnidering > > you have sold your land, do you even want to return? Would my dear > > friend ARK leave Ramjas College and go to Kashmir University - or the > > Vaishnu Devi university or the proposed Sharda Peeth for that matter? > > If 2500 people who are still there and who never migrated, can live > > there, why can't you? > > > > And Kashmir has something stronger than the 'full flow' of the Indian > > Constitution. It has the Indian army, BSF, CRPF at every nook and > > corner. > > > > best > > shivam > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:04 AM, Pawan Durani > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Shivam , > > > > > > I appreciate your curiosity. > > > > > > Regarding the 16000 crore package , the finer things about the package > is > > not known to many people and most of the media just caught up with the > > headlines. We may discuss the 16000 crore package sometime else. > > > > > > When you quote that many Kashmiri hindu businessman spend 6 months in > > Kashmir , i may not disagree that the few people do. I am sure you know > the > > percentage of Kashmiri Hindu businessmen . Kindly share it with rest of > the > > group. My idea is that it is less than 1%.So if less than 1% Kashmiri > Hindus > > visit Kashmir , where they are welcome as tourist but not as permanent > > residents , that should not be a quoting figure for normalcy. > > > > > > Also once bitten is twice shy , and Kashmiri Hindus have been bitten > more > > than 8 times in last 1000 years . This time the return has to be on terms > of > > Kashmiri Hindus.And one of the term is a separate homeland with a full > flow > > of Indian constitution. > > > > > > For Kashmiri Hindus , the political reasons do not make any reason for > > their non returning . They don't have a representative in assembly or the > > national parliament. The reason has everything to what they had witnessed > > sometimes back , which made them run away to save lives and honour. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > On 7/17/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > >> > > >> While a typo can be ignored, the question is worth asking: what > prevents > > >> pandits from being 'faciliated' to return? Militancy has declined, > > nobody is > > >> holding a gun to Pandits' temples and quita few happily (especially > > >> businessmen) are spending six months in the Valley and six in Delhi. > But > > >> many. Why has the package of Rs. 16,000 crores been rejected? Do > Pandits > > >> even want to reurn, considering 70% have sold their land back home? > And > > why > > >> don't they want to return, considering they can buy land? Is it > > political > > >> reasons rather than safety? Is is that many non-Jammu migrants are > well > > >> settled in Delhi, Pune, Bangalore, New York? Is it that returning > would > > mean > > >> giving up the political uses of victimhood and let 'separatists' say, > > "Look, > > >> even the Pandits are back." I am not making these allegations but > asking > > >> questions. Like all communities the Pandits are a divided community. > > >> Kshmendra Kaul does not represent them all. Everyone has different > > reasons > > >> and different circumstances. > > >> > > >> best > > >> shivam > > >> > > >> > > >> On 7/16/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > >> > > > >> > A "International Kashmir Peace Conference" was held Washington D.C, > > >> > 14th-15th July. It adopted the "Washington Declaration". > > >> > > > >> > The website of "Association of Humanitarian Lawyers", one of the > > sponsors > > >> > of the Conference, furnishes the text of the "Declaration" > > >> > > > >> > Point 8 in it reads "The Conference calls for protection of all > > minorities. > > >> > All the displaced persons including Kashmiri bandits should be > > facilitated > > >> > to return to their ancestral home." > > >> > > > >> > http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html > > >> > > > >> > Did not know that "bandits" had been displaced out of Kashmir. At > > least > > >> > they are being called 'displaced' and not 'migrants' > > >> > > > >> > KK > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > _________________________________________ > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > List archive: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > -- > > /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Jul 19 12:43:12 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 12:13:12 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs In-Reply-To: <645979.57196.qm@web54204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <645979.57196.qm@web54204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi, A person who dares to teach shall never cease to learn, teacher is always a student.? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Baruk S. Jacob" Date: Friday, July 18, 2008 11:41 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs Cc: sarai > hi radhika, > > the point, i think, was not reservations for students, but > reservations for teaching positions in the IITs. > > regards, > > ~baruk > > http://bottlebroke.blogspot.com > > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net > wrote: > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs > > To: b_a_r_u_k at yahoo.com > > Cc: "sarai" , "Ranjith Thankappan" > > Date: Friday, July 18, 2008, 12:35 PM > > Reservation and quota is needed, BUT NOT for the individuals > > of any caste or faith, IT IS needed to the funds in national > > exchequer to provide basic education to all, to give them > > opportunity to improve the skill sets, then best of all > > communities and castes and faiths will have equal > > opportunity to study any professional course with better > > grasp and capacity to learn. > > > > Present system of langda HRD is only to garner votes > > with the guise of uplifting the downtrodden, but in > > reality, the individuals who get seats can not cope up as > > the fundamental education that they got is skewed, > > lopsided. > > > > Regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Baruk S. Jacob" > > > > Date: Friday, July 18, 2008 12:09 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs > > To: sarai , Ranjith Thankappan > > > > > > > Hi Ranjith, > > > > > > Read the article with interest-I am in the strange > > position of > > > having seen both sides of the reservation debate, and > > am yet to > > > really make up my mind. A snippet caught my eye, > > though, > > > > > > "IIT-Delhi professor Pankaj Jalote said > > reservation for students > > > had to be viewed differently from faculty reservation. > > In case of > > > students, he said, there is no compromise on the > > quality of > > > education. "But if selection of faculty is done > > on anything else > > > but merit, it will affect education," > > > > > > Do you disagree with this? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > ~Baruk > > > > > > http://bottlebroke.blogspot.com > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, Ranjith Thankappan > > > > > wrote: > > > > From: Ranjith Thankappan > > > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs > > > > To: "sarai" > > > > > > Date: Friday, July 18, 2008, 8:37 AM > > > > hi > > > > Few days back Manuwadi director (former) of IIT > > Madras made > > > > a comment “'HRD minister has injected AIDS > > into > > > > IITs” (Please visit this link for news > > > > > > > > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumbai/HRD_minister_has_injected_AIDS_into_IITs/articleshow/3176486.cms)>> > > > >   > > > > these are the kind of "meritorious" > > Directors > > > > available to IITs. No wonder IITs produce IT > > koolies for > > > > the developed world and degraded to the extent of > > > > brahmanism. what a shame!! > > > > regards > > > > > > > > > > > > Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to > > > > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > > the subject > > > > header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From khurramparvez at yahoo.com Sat Jul 19 13:06:17 2008 From: khurramparvez at yahoo.com (Khurram Parvez) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 00:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Indian government's reaction to EP resolution Message-ID: <997716.15936.qm@web31814.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/   Terror funding in Kashmir from Europe Netherlands NGO, Kolkatta Prof set to face action By Sanjeev Pargal JAMMU, July 17: Intelligence agencies were reported to have written to External Affairs Ministry seeking action against a Netherlands based Non-Governmental Organisation (NGO), a Kolkatta based female Professor, an Ahmedabad based Advocate and a host of "anti-India Indians" who have joined hands not only to carry out strong anti-India propaganda in Europe but were also found in raising funds for terror outfits operating in Kashmir. Official sources told the Excelsior that the Intelligence agencies have identified nearly a dozen citizens of India, who had recently joined hands along with some Kashmir based separatists operating in United States and London and a Netherlands based NGO, to project what they described "strong human rights violations" in Kashmir at different forums in Europe. They were also reported to have raised funds worth several crores through different forums for terror funding in Kashmir. Sources said the Intelligence agencies here after obtaining a detailed report of anti-India propaganda and terror funds raised in Europe have written to the External Affairs Ministry to take action against the Indian citizens involved in the plot and cancel their visa. According to sources, IKV Pax Christi, a Netherlands based NGO was used by a Kolkatta based female Professor, who was reported to have strong links with Pakistan's spy wing Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), an Ahmedabad based Advocate, a New Delhi based "human rights activist" and about half a dozen "influential persons" of Kashmir to carry out a strong anti-India propaganda on Kashmir and raise funds for the terrorists. Ghulam Nabi Fai, a known anti-Indian presently operating from America, was said to have utilised all his resources in Europe for anti-India propaganda and utilising the occasion for raising funds for terrorism. According to sources, Pakistan Embassies in Europe have also played a significant role in anti-India resolutions including a warning to India that the country would be fully responsible if anything happened to Kolkatta based woman and a "human rights activist" of Kashmir, who continued to insist that a large number of people were missing in Kashmir while as the agencies have asserted that most of them have joined militancy and the number of "actually missing persons" was very few. Sources said about 20 days back also an "advisory" had been dispatched by the State Intelligence agencies that this bunch of "anti-India Indians" have joined hands for anti-India resolutions and terror raising funds. However, now, the response of the Foreign Ministry was very positive and they were expected to come down very heavily on anti-India protagonists. The External Affairs Ministry is likely to approach Netherlands High Commission to take action against their NGO for providing not only misleading information but the "data far from truth" in Europe against India on Kashmir. The Government is likely to seek complete ban on any international aid for Netherlands NGO. The Ministry, sources revealed, was also actively considering cancellation of visa of Kolkatta based woman and Ahmedabad based Advocate. From mail at shivamvij.com Sat Jul 19 13:47:13 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 13:47:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Indian government's reaction to EP resolution In-Reply-To: <997716.15936.qm@web31814.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <997716.15936.qm@web31814.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807190117p5da7d731x8551f982b11227a2@mail.gmail.com> If it wasn't for real, it would be funny. How to be a banana republic... On 7/19/08, Khurram Parvez wrote: > > http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/ > > > Terror funding in Kashmir from Europe > Netherlands NGO, Kolkatta Prof set to face action > > > By Sanjeev Pargal > JAMMU, July 17: Intelligence > agencies were reported to have written to External Affairs Ministry > seeking action against a Netherlands based Non-Governmental > Organisation (NGO), a Kolkatta based female Professor, an Ahmedabad > based Advocate and a host of "anti-India Indians" who have joined hands > not only to carry out strong anti-India propaganda in Europe but were > also found in raising funds for terror outfits operating in Kashmir. > Official sources told the Excelsior > that the Intelligence agencies have identified nearly a dozen citizens > of India, who had recently joined hands along with some Kashmir based > separatists operating in United States and London and a Netherlands > based NGO, to project what they described "strong human rights > violations" in Kashmir at different forums in Europe. They were also > reported to have raised funds worth several crores through different > forums for terror funding in Kashmir. > Sources said the Intelligence agencies > here after obtaining a detailed report of anti-India propaganda and > terror funds raised in Europe have written to the External Affairs > Ministry to take action against the Indian citizens involved in the > plot and cancel their visa. > According to sources, IKV Pax Christi, > a Netherlands based NGO was used by a Kolkatta based female Professor, > who was reported to have strong links with Pakistan's spy wing > Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), an Ahmedabad based Advocate, a New > Delhi based "human rights activist" and about half a dozen "influential > persons" of Kashmir to carry out a strong anti-India propaganda on > Kashmir and raise funds for the terrorists. > Ghulam Nabi Fai, a known anti-Indian > presently operating from America, was said to have utilised all his > resources in Europe for anti-India propaganda and utilising the > occasion for raising funds for terrorism. > According to sources, Pakistan > Embassies in Europe have also played a significant role in anti-India > resolutions including a warning to India that the country would be > fully responsible if anything happened to Kolkatta based woman and a > "human rights activist" of Kashmir, who continued to insist that a > large number of people were missing in Kashmir while as the agencies > have asserted that most of them have joined militancy and the number of > "actually missing persons" was very few. > Sources said about 20 days back > also an "advisory" had been dispatched by the State Intelligence > agencies that this bunch of "anti-India Indians" have joined hands for > anti-India resolutions and terror raising funds. > However, now, the response of the > Foreign Ministry was very positive and they were expected to come down > very heavily on anti-India protagonists. The External Affairs Ministry > is likely to approach Netherlands High Commission to take action > against their NGO for providing not only misleading information but the > "data far from truth" in Europe against India on Kashmir. The > Government is likely to seek complete ban on any international aid for > Netherlands NGO. > The Ministry, sources revealed, was > also actively considering cancellation of visa of Kolkatta based woman > and Ahmedabad based Advocate. > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sat Jul 19 16:15:12 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 06:45:12 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs In-Reply-To: <4880ADC2.1020501@gmail.com> References: <537771.12809.qm@web8702.mail.in.yahoo.com> <4880ADC2.1020501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4881C5B8.90103@gmail.com> Only one person out of the hundred-odd I reached, responded. Here it is. Prabhakar Singh wrote: > > > There should not be any kind of reservation anywhere.Necessary economic > support and required facilities may be made available to the > disadvataged,physically challenged and poor people without linking it to > any cast,religion,sect,region and gender so that they are able to rise > and the requirements of admission to any institution or course or get > suitable opportunity or employment.Let us be reasonable not sentimental > on this issue.This is not an issue of debate at all but the vested > vote-bank interests of politicians has made it an issue of debate to > divide the society on cast lines and enjoy the booty of power. > > Prabhakar Tapas Ray wrote: > Ranjith, > > Let me tell you upfront that I am an IITan, so that you know the context > of my response. However, I have not been an engineer for a long time. > That said, I have a couple of things to say. > > One, I think you should tell us what you mean by 'IT koolies'. That > would clarify your thoughts not just on the reservation issue but on the > broader issue of what role the IITs should play, if they are playing it > now, and if not, what they should do to close the gap. I wrote an > article along these lines in The Statesman a few years ago, and will try > to dig it up if anyone is interested, which I think is unlikely. But if > someone is interested, it would be good if s/he would let me know > whether I should post it on the list or email it to her/him. > > Two, if your use of the phrase 'IT koolies' expresses contempt, which I > think it does, it would be helpful if you would explain what is > contemptible about being a 'kooly/ie'. I do not think there is anything > bad about carrying someone else's load, or pulling someone else's weight > as rickshaw pullers do. They are putting in honest labour to earn a > living, and are workers like other workers. > > Unfortunately, I will not be able to take part in this discussion beyond > this post for some time. But I will see if any of my IIT friends would > be interested in responding. > > Tapas > > > > Ranjith Thankappan wrote: >> hi >> Few days back Manuwadi director (former) of IIT Madras made a comment >> “'HRD minister has injected AIDS into IITs” (Please visit this link >> for news >> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumbai/HRD_minister_has_injected_AIDS_into_IITs/articleshow/3176486.cms) >> >> these are the kind of "meritorious" Directors available to IITs. No >> wonder IITs produce IT koolies for the developed world and degraded to >> the extent of brahmanism. what a shame!! >> regards >> >> > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 19 16:49:12 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 04:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs In-Reply-To: <4881C5B8.90103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <857001.25114.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Tapas   I think I am getting afflicted by the "I too want to say something on this topic" disease.   (I am not an IITian. I tried but did not make the mark in the JEE.)   The 'reservations' policies also has much to do (I think) with " there is a demand, let us ensure shortages and then dole out favours with a pay-back". Applied to  Education, it is one of the current day scenarios of the earlier 'licence raj'. The motive now might not be 'money' but the doling of 'politicised favours' towards targetted 'vote banks'. Creation and/or continuation of 'shortages' serves the purpose well.   The simplest solution for cutting through any discussions over or the need for  'reservations' is to expand the availability of 'educational opportunities', be they schools, colleges or Institutes of Higher Learning (such as IITs).   Intrestingly, two of (what I call) 'critical needs' of any country namely easily and affordably accesible Education Environment and Justice Environment are the cheapest to establish as compared to any of the other 'critical needs' (Health, Security etc). Yet in India ......   Kshmendra     --- On Sat, 7/19/08, Tapas Ray wrote: From: Tapas Ray Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs To: "sarai list" Date: Saturday, July 19, 2008, 4:15 PM Only one person out of the hundred-odd I reached, responded. Here it is. Prabhakar Singh wrote: > > > There should not be any kind of reservation anywhere.Necessary economic > support and required facilities may be made available to the > disadvataged,physically challenged and poor people without linking it to > any cast,religion,sect,region and gender so that they are able to rise > and the requirements of admission to any institution or course or get > suitable opportunity or employment.Let us be reasonable not sentimental > on this issue.This is not an issue of debate at all but the vested > vote-bank interests of politicians has made it an issue of debate to > divide the society on cast lines and enjoy the booty of power. > > Prabhakar Tapas Ray wrote: > Ranjith, > > Let me tell you upfront that I am an IITan, so that you know the context > of my response. However, I have not been an engineer for a long time. > That said, I have a couple of things to say. > > One, I think you should tell us what you mean by 'IT koolies'. That > would clarify your thoughts not just on the reservation issue but on the > broader issue of what role the IITs should play, if they are playing it > now, and if not, what they should do to close the gap. I wrote an > article along these lines in The Statesman a few years ago, and will try > to dig it up if anyone is interested, which I think is unlikely. But if > someone is interested, it would be good if s/he would let me know > whether I should post it on the list or email it to her/him. > > Two, if your use of the phrase 'IT koolies' expresses contempt, which I > think it does, it would be helpful if you would explain what is > contemptible about being a 'kooly/ie'. I do not think there is anything > bad about carrying someone else's load, or pulling someone else's weight > as rickshaw pullers do. They are putting in honest labour to earn a > living, and are workers like other workers. > > Unfortunately, I will not be able to take part in this discussion beyond > this post for some time. But I will see if any of my IIT friends would > be interested in responding. > > Tapas > > > > Ranjith Thankappan wrote: >> hi >> Few days back Manuwadi director (former) of IIT Madras made a comment >> “'HRD minister has injected AIDS into IITs” (Please visit this link >> for news >> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumbai/HRD_minister_has_injected_AIDS_into_IITs/articleshow/3176486.cms) >> >> these are the kind of "meritorious" Directors available to IITs. No >> wonder IITs produce IT koolies for the developed world and degraded to >> the extent of brahmanism. what a shame!! >> regards >> >> > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 19 19:24:35 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 06:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807180329g2c683987k69efa5f2ccbd3341@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <840925.48146.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Shivam   1. Your mail was not directed at me. It was not addressed to me. Next time you want me to respond, it would be better if you addressed me.   2. Even if you do address it me, it is not neccessary that I will respond to you. That should not surprise you of all the people. If you choose not to respond to people when they address you or ask questions off you, it should not surprise you if you are treated in the same manner.   3. You should also perhaps be patient in receiving a response, if one is coming at all. "Shivam asks" might be for you a snap of fingers expecting a speedy response. Might not mean much to others. On the contrary it might be a 'put off'.   4. All else put aside, if I were to suspect the slightest sincerity in your asking 'that' set of questions, I might be more than willing to dialogue over them with you. They were transparently insincere and malicious.   Sonia Jabbar was wrong in suggesting that you were being 'naive'. Sonia was right in calling your questions 'offensive'. I would have used the words 'crude' and 'insulting'   5. Sonia again called it right in telling you "...    it seems you have made up your mind about why the Pandits have not returned long before you wrote your post...."   6. If your questions were actually 'sincere' then for someone who commentates so regularly on Kashmir, your questions (especially in the manner they were framed) displayed a lack of in-depth understanding of Kashmir Affairs. Maybe you need to introspect after shedding preconcieved notions.   7. Another factor you might want to look at could be your lack of credibility both as a journalist as well as of the person that you are which might dissuade someone (like me) from readily responding to you.     The 'contents' and the 'bias' of your writings are only a part of that 'lack of credibility'. (Making a silly reference by connecting the Dharmarth Trust to KPs is a minor recent example. After it being pointed out, your not acknowledging your mistake only made it worse)   (Wish someone would teach me how SARAI archives can be easily searched)   Do you remember your shooting your mouth off and accusing one Abhishek Behl of plaigiarism? Do you remember it being pointed out to you that you were in error in your accusation because Behl had clearly stated that he was reproducing 'verbatim' a document issued by Campaign for Judicial Accountability and Judicial Reforms (CJAJR)? What you did not do is to express regrets for wrongfully accusing someone of plaigiarism or apologise to Behl in the same public space where you had so freely accused him.   That Shivam made questionable (for me) both your journalistic and personal ethics. It should not surprise you if you are not taken seriously.   8. What I found amusing is your agreeing with Sonia, when she confronted you, that the KPs are not a homogenous community.    Actually you yourself had said as much (in different words) in your first ".. not making these allegations but asking questions" post. You had written " Like all communities the Pandits are a divided community. ........ Everyone has different reasons and different circumstances."   Shivam, if you know there is no homogenity then consider how incongruous your questions were in their generalisations and how offensive and malicious they were (in the manner in which they were framed with accusations contained therein). Consider Shivam what a sorry figure the smug arrogance in your questions cut, when in the same breath you stated "Everyone has different reasons and different circumstances." Hoisted on your own contradictions.   9. If your other meaningless dalliances of intellect (or lack of it) were not enough, you had to go ahead and top it all with your " Sometimes I wonder whether Kshmendra exists at all"   You poor pitiable confounded soul. Take your pick from either of the two possibilities as an answer:   - I write, therefore I am - I am, therefore I write     Kshmendra      --- On Fri, 7/18/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् wrote: From: Shivam Vij शिवम् Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration To: "Pawan Durani" Cc: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "sarai list" Date: Friday, July 18, 2008, 3:59 PM Dear Pawan, Many thanks for your reply, although it was directed at Kshmendra, who has surprisingly not replied so far. Sometimes I wonder whether Kshmendra exists at all or if he is elusive like the solution to the Kashmir dispute. > Regarding the 16000 crore package , the finer things > about the package is not known to many people and > most of the media just caught up with the headlines. > We may discuss the 16000 crore package sometime else. The details have indeed come out: http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=26_4_2008&ItemID=51&cat=1 Your attempt to brush this away makes me wonder even more: now when the government is paying to share substantial costs to return to the Valley, now that militancy is at its lowest, why don't you return? More details about how the package would be operationalised are immaterial because various Pandit leaders have rejected the very idea outright. > When you quote that many Kashmiri hindu businessman spend 6 > months in Kashmir , i may not disagree that the few people do. > I am sure you know the percentage of Kashmiri > Hindu businessmen . Kindly share it with rest of the group. > My idea is that it is less than 1%. Well, I met some such and was told about them. But the point is that if it is safe for some to live for six months, why is it unsafe for others to live for twelve months? You can say that a certain district is still unsafe, you arre afraid, but why can't those in Srinagar want to return. One point you haven't answered is: WHY WOULD SOMEONE WHO HAS SOLD HIS PROPERTY RETURN? I am told that 7 in 10 migrants have sold their properties and have thus given up their stake in the valley - something that the Pandits who refused to migrate are pained about. What are the reasons for selling property? > where they are welcome as tourist > but not as permanent residents This is completely untrue. The local population is in fact guilty that the Pandits were kicked out in the first place, and the 'separatists' regret it even more because the Indian government used the plight of the Pandits as a scoring point against the separatists. (For the same reason not a single yatri was attacked, and in fact Muslims held langars in Srinagar, during nine days of strike, agitation and CRPF firing in the Valley. It was not so much an act of charity but a politically calculated act of restraint.) > Also once bitten is twice shy , and Kashmiri > Hindus have been bitten more than 8 times in last 1000 years . And the Pandits have been migrating for ages. In my city, Lucknow, they have had a rich history, as also in Delhi. Not all Pandits are refugees, and not all pandit refugees live / lived in camps - somehow the discourse on pandits have stereotyped a hardworking, literate, upwardly mobile community as refugees and nothing else. > This time the return has to be on terms of Kashmiri Hindus. > And one of the term is a separate homeland with a > full flow of Indian constitution. Pandits did not leave Kashmir in protest of the J&K constitution. In 1989 Pandits did not say, "Extend Indian Constitution to Kashmir or we'll leave." They left because of threats of violence and if the threats of violence have been replaced by calls for return and assurances of safety, why don't they return? And most refugees went to nearby Jammu where the 'full flow' of the Indian Constitution applies as much as it does in Sopore. There were also Pandits displaced within the valley many of whom have accepted a rehabilitation package from the J&K government. Why should Pandits have a separate homeland? And if that is what they want, why shouldn't Kashmir have independence from India? This seems to be going in the logic of the Partition of India. The kashmir issue is an unsettled sore thumb of the partition. The Pandits were and are a part of the state of Jammu and Kashmir which had independence for three months, which is the only state to have its own flag, its own Constitution, rules debarring outsiders from buying land. It has 28 vacant seats for PoK but this logic is not extended to the Parliament of India. J&K has a UN observer mission, it has an LoC rather than an international border - in short, even the Constitution of India indirectly admits that kashmir is a disputed territory. Now you can demand a separate homeland for Pandits or demand whatever whether you are living in Anantnag or Amsterdam. But, again: that is not why you left Kashmir. You left because of killings and threats, and now that they are no more, why don;t you return? And cosnidering you have sold your land, do you even want to return? Would my dear friend ARK leave Ramjas College and go to Kashmir University - or the Vaishnu Devi university or the proposed Sharda Peeth for that matter? If 2500 people who are still there and who never migrated, can live there, why can't you? And Kashmir has something stronger than the 'full flow' of the Indian Constitution. It has the Indian army, BSF, CRPF at every nook and corner. best shivam On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:04 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Dear Shivam , > > I appreciate your curiosity. > > Regarding the 16000 crore package , the finer things about the package is not known to many people and most of the media just caught up with the headlines. We may discuss the 16000 crore package sometime else. > > When you quote that many Kashmiri hindu businessman spend 6 months in Kashmir , i may not disagree that the few people do. I am sure you know the percentage of Kashmiri Hindu businessmen . Kindly share it with rest of the group. My idea is that it is less than 1%.So if less than 1% Kashmiri Hindus visit Kashmir , where they are welcome as tourist but not as permanent residents , that should not be a quoting figure for normalcy. > > Also once bitten is twice shy , and Kashmiri Hindus have been bitten more than 8 times in last 1000 years . This time the return has to be on terms of Kashmiri Hindus.And one of the term is a separate homeland with a full flow of Indian constitution. > > For Kashmiri Hindus , the political reasons do not make any reason for their non returning . They don't have a representative in assembly or the national parliament. The reason has everything to what they had witnessed sometimes back , which made them run away to save lives and honour. > > Regards > > Pawan Durani > > > On 7/17/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> While a typo can be ignored, the question is worth asking: what prevents >> pandits from being 'faciliated' to return? Militancy has declined, nobody is >> holding a gun to Pandits' temples and quita few happily (especially >> businessmen) are spending six months in the Valley and six in Delhi. But >> many. Why has the package of Rs. 16,000 crores been rejected? Do Pandits >> even want to reurn, considering 70% have sold their land back home? And why >> don't they want to return, considering they can buy land? Is it political >> reasons rather than safety? Is is that many non-Jammu migrants are well >> settled in Delhi, Pune, Bangalore, New York? Is it that returning would mean >> giving up the political uses of victimhood and let 'separatists' say, "Look, >> even the Pandits are back." I am not making these allegations but asking >> questions. Like all communities the Pandits are a divided community. >> Kshmendra Kaul does not represent them all. Everyone has different reasons >> and different circumstances. >> >> best >> shivam >> >> >> On 7/16/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >> > >> > A "International Kashmir Peace Conference" was held Washington D.C, >> > 14th-15th July. It adopted the "Washington Declaration". >> > >> > The website of "Association of Humanitarian Lawyers", one of the sponsors >> > of the Conference, furnishes the text of the "Declaration" >> > >> > Point 8 in it reads "The Conference calls for protection of all minorities. >> > All the displaced persons including Kashmiri bandits should be facilitated >> > to return to their ancestral home." >> > >> > http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html >> > >> > Did not know that "bandits" had been displaced out of Kashmir. At least >> > they are being called 'displaced' and not 'migrants' >> > >> > KK >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> >> -- >> /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sat Jul 19 20:40:53 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 11:10:53 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs In-Reply-To: <857001.25114.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <857001.25114.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <488203FD.3010001@gmail.com> Kshemendra, Thanks for your response to Prabhakar. I will forward it to those folks. Your "disease" is a desirable thing, I think. That's the whole point of having a discussion forum in the first place. That's what I thnk anyway. Tapas Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Tapas > > > > I think I am getting afflicted by the "I too want to say something on > this topic" disease. > > > > (I am not an IITian. I tried but did not make the mark in the JEE.) > > > > The 'reservations' policies also has much to do (I think) with " there > is a demand, let us ensure shortages and then dole out favours with a > pay-back". Applied to Education, it is one of the current day scenarios > of the earlier 'licence raj'. The motive now might not be 'money' but > the doling of 'politicised favours' towards targetted 'vote banks'. > Creation and/or continuation of 'shortages' serves the purpose well. > > > > The simplest solution for cutting through any discussions over or the > need for 'reservations' is to expand the availability of 'educational > opportunities', be they schools, colleges or Institutes of Higher > Learning (such as IITs). > > > > Intrestingly, two of (what I call) 'critical needs' of any country > namely easily and affordably accesible Education Environment and Justice > Environment are the cheapest to establish as compared to any of the > other 'critical needs' (Health, Security etc). Yet in India ...... > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > --- On *Sat, 7/19/08, Tapas Ray //* wrote: > > From: Tapas Ray > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs > To: "sarai list" > Date: Saturday, July 19, 2008, 4:15 PM > > Only one person out of the hundred-odd I reached, responded. Here it is. > > Prabhakar Singh wrote: > > > > > > There should not be any kind of reservation anywhere.Necessary economic > > support and required facilities may be made available to the > > disadvataged,physically challenged and poor people without linking it to > > any cast,religion,sect,region and gender so that they are able to rise > > and the requirements of admission to any institution or course or get > > suitable opportunity or employment.Let us be reasonable not sentimental > > on this issue.This is not an issue of debate at all but the vested > > vote-bank interests of politicians has made it an issue of debate to > > divide the society on cast lines and enjoy the booty of power. > > > > Prabhakar > > Tapas Ray wrote: > > Ranjith, > > > > Let me tell you upfront that I am an IITan, so that you know the context > > of my response. However, I have not been an engineer for a long time. > > That said, I have a couple of things to say. > > > > One, I think you should tell us what you mean by 'IT koolies'. > That > > would clarify your thoughts not just on the reservation issue but on the > > broader issue of what role the IITs should play, if they are playing it > > now, and if not, what they should do to close the gap. I wrote an > > article along these lines in The Statesman a few years ago, and will try > > to dig it up if anyone is interested, which I think is unlikely. But if > > someone is interested, it would be good if s/he would let me know > > whether I should post it on the list or email it to her/him. > > > > Two, if your use of the phrase 'IT koolies' expresses contempt, > which I > > think it does, it would be helpful if you would explain what is > > contemptible about being a 'kooly/ie'. I do not think there is > anything > > bad about carrying someone else's load, or pulling someone else's > weight > > as rickshaw pullers do. They are putting in honest labour to earn a > > living, and are workers like other workers. > > > > Unfortunately, I will not be able to take part in this discussion beyond > > this post for some time. But I will see if any of my IIT friends would > > be interested in responding. > > > > Tapas > > > > > > > > Ranjith Thankappan wrote: > >> hi > >> Few days back Manuwadi director (former) of IIT Madras made a comment > >> “'HRD minister has injected AIDS into IITs” (Please visit this > link > >> for news > >> > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumbai/HRD_minister_has_injected_AIDS_into_IITs/articleshow/3176486.cms) > > >> > >> these are the kind of "meritorious" Directors available to > IITs. No > >> wonder IITs produce IT koolies for the developed world and degraded to > > >> the extent of brahmanism. what a shame!! > >> regards > >> > >> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From the.solipsist at gmail.com Sat Jul 19 22:41:33 2008 From: the.solipsist at gmail.com (Pranesh Prakash) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 22:41:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration In-Reply-To: <840925.48146.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <9c06aab30807180329g2c683987k69efa5f2ccbd3341@mail.gmail.com> <840925.48146.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4785f1e20807191011h47657c19yec514e476870d7c@mail.gmail.com> Dear Mr. Kaul, You could go to http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fmail.sarai.net%2Fpipermail%2Freader-list%2F&btnG=Search&meta= and do a search for whatever you wish. If it is "Dharmarth Trust" you wish to search for, use: http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en&q=%22Dharmarth+Trust%22+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fmail.sarai.net%2Fpipermail%2Freader-list%2F&btnG=Search&meta= Hope that helps. Please note that this method will throw up results based on "relevance" and "PageRank [TM]" and not based on date. Regards, Pranesh On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 19:24, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > (Wish someone would teach me how SARAI archives can be easily searched) > > From mail at shivamvij.com Sat Jul 19 22:46:12 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 22:46:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration In-Reply-To: <840925.48146.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <9c06aab30807180329g2c683987k69efa5f2ccbd3341@mail.gmail.com> <840925.48146.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807191016n15fa134bwa541f5c9696c6982@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra, The tone of your message further convinces me that you are someone else. best shivam On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 7:24 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Shivam > > > > 1. Your mail was not directed at me. It was not addressed to me. Next time you want me to respond, it would be better if you addressed me. > > > > 2. Even if you do address it me, it is not neccessary that I will respond to you. That should not surprise you of all the people. If you choose not to respond to people when they address you or ask questions off you, it should not surprise you if you are treated in the same manner. > > > > 3. You should also perhaps be patient in receiving a response, if one is coming at all. "Shivam asks" might be for you a snap of fingers expecting a speedy response. Might not mean much to others. On the contrary it might be a 'put off'. > > > > 4. All else put aside, if I were to suspect the slightest sincerity in your asking 'that' set of questions, I might be more than willing to dialogue over them with you. They were transparently insincere and malicious. > > > > Sonia Jabbar was wrong in suggesting that you were being 'naive'. Sonia was right in calling your questions 'offensive'. I would have used the words 'crude' and 'insulting' > > > > 5. Sonia again called it right in telling you "... it seems you have made up your mind about why the Pandits have not returned long before you wrote your post...." > > > > 6. If your questions were actually 'sincere' then for someone who commentates so regularly on Kashmir, your questions (especially in the manner they were framed) displayed a lack of in-depth understanding of Kashmir Affairs. Maybe you need to introspect after shedding preconcieved notions. > > > > 7. Another factor you might want to look at could be your lack of credibility both as a journalist as well as of the person that you are which might dissuade someone (like me) from readily responding to you. > > > > The 'contents' and the 'bias' of your writings are only a part of that 'lack of credibility'. (Making a silly reference by connecting the Dharmarth Trust to KPs is a minor recent example. After it being pointed out, your not acknowledging your mistake only made it worse) > > > > (Wish someone would teach me how SARAI archives can be easily searched) > > > > Do you remember your shooting your mouth off and accusing one Abhishek Behl of plaigiarism? Do you remember it being pointed out to you that you were in error in your accusation because Behl had clearly stated that he was reproducing 'verbatim' a document issued by Campaign for Judicial Accountability and Judicial Reforms (CJAJR)? What you did not do is to express regrets for wrongfully accusing someone of plaigiarism or apologise to Behl in the same public space where you had so freely accused him. > > > > That Shivam made questionable (for me) both your journalistic and personal ethics. It should not surprise you if you are not taken seriously. > > > > 8. What I found amusing is your agreeing with Sonia, when she confronted you, that the KPs are not a homogenous community. > > > > Actually you yourself had said as much (in different words) in your first ".. not making these allegations but asking questions" post. You had written " Like all communities the Pandits are a divided community. ........ Everyone has different reasons and different circumstances." > > > > Shivam, if you know there is no homogenity then consider how incongruous your questions were in their generalisations and how offensive and malicious they were (in the manner in which they were framed with accusations contained therein). Consider Shivam what a sorry figure the smug arrogance in your questions cut, when in the same breath you stated "Everyone has different reasons and different circumstances." Hoisted on your own contradictions. > > > > 9. If your other meaningless dalliances of intellect (or lack of it) were not enough, you had to go ahead and top it all with your " Sometimes I wonder whether Kshmendra exists at all" > > > > You poor pitiable confounded soul. Take your pick from either of the two possibilities as an answer: > > > > - I write, therefore I am > > - I am, therefore I write > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् wrote: > > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration > To: "Pawan Durani" > Cc: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "sarai list" > Date: Friday, July 18, 2008, 3:59 PM > > Dear Pawan, > > Many thanks for your reply, although it was directed at Kshmendra, who > has surprisingly not replied so far. Sometimes I wonder whether > Kshmendra exists at all or if he is elusive like the solution to the > Kashmir dispute. > > > Regarding the 16000 crore package , the finer things > > about the package is not known to many people and > > most of the media just caught up with the headlines. > > We may discuss the 16000 crore package sometime else. > > The details have indeed come out: > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=26_4_2008&ItemID=51&cat=1 > > Your attempt to brush this away makes me wonder even more: now when > the government is paying to share substantial costs to return to the > Valley, now that militancy is at its lowest, why don't you return? > More details about how the package would be operationalised are > immaterial because various Pandit leaders have rejected the very idea > outright. > > > When you quote that many Kashmiri hindu businessman spend 6 > > months in Kashmir , i may not disagree that the few people do. > > I am sure you know the percentage of Kashmiri > > Hindu businessmen . Kindly share it with rest of the group. > > My idea is that it is less than 1%. > > Well, I met some such and was told about them. But the point is that > if it is safe for some to live for six months, why is it unsafe for > others to live for twelve months? You can say that a certain district > is still unsafe, you arre afraid, but why can't those in Srinagar want > to return. > > One point you haven't answered is: WHY WOULD SOMEONE WHO HAS SOLD HIS > PROPERTY RETURN? I am told that 7 in 10 migrants have sold their > properties and have thus given up their stake in the valley - > something that the Pandits who refused to migrate are pained about. > What are the reasons for selling property? > > > where they are welcome as tourist > > but not as permanent residents > > This is completely untrue. The local population is in fact guilty that > the Pandits were kicked out in the first place, and the 'separatists' > regret it even more because the Indian government used the plight of > the Pandits as a scoring point against the separatists. > > (For the same reason not a single yatri was attacked, and in fact > Muslims held langars in Srinagar, during nine days of strike, > agitation and CRPF firing in the Valley. It was not so much an act of > charity but a politically calculated act of restraint.) > > > Also once bitten is twice shy , and Kashmiri > > Hindus have been bitten more than 8 times in last 1000 years . > > And the Pandits have been migrating for ages. In my city, Lucknow, > they have had a rich history, as also in Delhi. Not all Pandits are > refugees, and not all pandit refugees live / lived in camps - somehow > the discourse on pandits have stereotyped a hardworking, literate, > upwardly mobile community as refugees and nothing else. > > > This time the return has to be on terms of Kashmiri Hindus. > > And one of the term is a separate homeland with a > > full flow of Indian constitution. > > Pandits did not leave Kashmir in protest of the J&K constitution. In > 1989 Pandits did not say, "Extend Indian Constitution to Kashmir or > we'll leave." They left because of threats of violence and if the > threats of violence have been replaced by calls for return and > assurances of safety, why don't they return? And most refugees went to > nearby Jammu where the 'full flow' of the Indian Constitution applies > as much as it does in Sopore. There were also Pandits displaced within > the valley many of whom have accepted a rehabilitation package from > the J&K government. > > Why should Pandits have a separate homeland? And if that is what they > want, why shouldn't Kashmir have independence from India? This seems > to be going in the logic of the Partition of India. The kashmir issue > is an unsettled sore thumb of the partition. > > The Pandits were and are a part of the state of Jammu and Kashmir > which had independence for three months, which is the only state to > have its own flag, its own Constitution, rules debarring outsiders > from buying land. It has 28 vacant seats for PoK but this logic is not > extended to the Parliament of India. J&K has a UN observer mission, it > has an LoC rather than an international border - in short, even the > Constitution of India indirectly admits that kashmir is a disputed > territory. > > Now you can demand a separate homeland for Pandits or demand whatever > whether you are living in Anantnag or Amsterdam. But, again: that is > not why you left Kashmir. You left because of killings and threats, > and now that they are no more, why don;t you return? And cosnidering > you have sold your land, do you even want to return? Would my dear > friend ARK leave Ramjas College and go to Kashmir University - or the > Vaishnu Devi university or the proposed Sharda Peeth for that matter? > If 2500 people who are still there and who never migrated, can live > there, why can't you? > > And Kashmir has something stronger than the 'full flow' of the Indian > Constitution. It has the Indian army, BSF, CRPF at every nook and > corner. > > best > shivam > > > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:04 AM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > > Dear Shivam , > > > > I appreciate your curiosity. > > > > Regarding the 16000 crore package , the finer things about the package is > not known to many people and most of the media just caught up with the > headlines. We may discuss the 16000 crore package sometime else. > > > > When you quote that many Kashmiri hindu businessman spend 6 months in > Kashmir , i may not disagree that the few people do. I am sure you know the > percentage of Kashmiri Hindu businessmen . Kindly share it with rest of the > group. My idea is that it is less than 1%.So if less than 1% Kashmiri Hindus > visit Kashmir , where they are welcome as tourist but not as permanent > residents , that should not be a quoting figure for normalcy. > > > > Also once bitten is twice shy , and Kashmiri Hindus have been bitten more > than 8 times in last 1000 years . This time the return has to be on terms of > Kashmiri Hindus.And one of the term is a separate homeland with a full flow of > Indian constitution. > > > > For Kashmiri Hindus , the political reasons do not make any reason for > their non returning . They don't have a representative in assembly or the > national parliament. The reason has everything to what they had witnessed > sometimes back , which made them run away to save lives and honour. > > > > Regards > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > On 7/17/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > wrote: > >> > >> While a typo can be ignored, the question is worth asking: what > prevents > >> pandits from being 'faciliated' to return? Militancy has > declined, nobody is > >> holding a gun to Pandits' temples and quita few happily > (especially > >> businessmen) are spending six months in the Valley and six in Delhi. > But > >> many. Why has the package of Rs. 16,000 crores been rejected? Do > Pandits > >> even want to reurn, considering 70% have sold their land back home? > And why > >> don't they want to return, considering they can buy land? Is it > political > >> reasons rather than safety? Is is that many non-Jammu migrants are > well > >> settled in Delhi, Pune, Bangalore, New York? Is it that returning > would mean > >> giving up the political uses of victimhood and let > 'separatists' say, "Look, > >> even the Pandits are back." I am not making these allegations but > asking > >> questions. Like all communities the Pandits are a divided community. > >> Kshmendra Kaul does not represent them all. Everyone has different > reasons > >> and different circumstances. > >> > >> best > >> shivam > >> > >> > >> On 7/16/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > >> > > >> > A "International Kashmir Peace Conference" was held > Washington D.C, > >> > 14th-15th July. It adopted the "Washington > Declaration". > >> > > >> > The website of "Association of Humanitarian Lawyers", > one of the sponsors > >> > of the Conference, furnishes the text of the > "Declaration" > >> > > >> > Point 8 in it reads "The Conference calls for protection of > all minorities. > >> > All the displaced persons including Kashmiri bandits should be > facilitated > >> > to return to their ancestral home." > >> > > >> > http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html > >> > > >> > Did not know that "bandits" had been displaced out of > Kashmir. At least > >> > they are being called 'displaced' and not > 'migrants' > >> > > >> > KK > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ -- /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sat Jul 19 23:16:38 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 13:46:38 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs In-Reply-To: <857001.25114.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <857001.25114.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4882287E.80006@gmail.com> Kshemendra, Here's his response. I have asked him to subscribe, so that he can carry on the conversation directly. Tapas Prabhakar Singh wrote: > > > Instead of focussing more on increasing the seats for admission in > educational institutions or any other field it is appropriate to focus > on the enabling process through which the poor,disadvantaged,physically > challenged,disabled and needy candidates are provided necessary > support,facilities and environment to raise their level of learning and > competitiveness to stand on their own.Lowering the bar through > reservations is not desirable as it may prove to be disastrous in the > important and critical services. > > Prabhakar Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Tapas > > > > I think I am getting afflicted by the "I too want to say something on > this topic" disease. > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 19 23:59:59 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 11:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807191016n15fa134bwa541f5c9696c6982@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <989480.29160.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Shivam   I hope that in my words to you, not only the 'tone' of 'someone elseness' was registered by you, but also what I think of you.   You are welcome to stew in your uncertainities and suspicions. That would be in character for you. Afterall your forte is in prejudiced presumptions. That is the foundation of your 'convictions'.   Kshmendra  --- On Sat, 7/19/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् wrote: From: Shivam Vij शिवम् Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "sarai list" Date: Saturday, July 19, 2008, 10:46 PM Dear Kshmendra, The tone of your message further convinces me that you are someone else. best shivam On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 7:24 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Shivam > > > > 1. Your mail was not directed at me. It was not addressed to me. Next time you want me to respond, it would be better if you addressed me. > > > > 2. Even if you do address it me, it is not neccessary that I will respond to you. That should not surprise you of all the people. If you choose not to respond to people when they address you or ask questions off you, it should not surprise you if you are treated in the same manner. > > > > 3. You should also perhaps be patient in receiving a response, if one is coming at all. "Shivam asks" might be for you a snap of fingers expecting a speedy response. Might not mean much to others. On the contrary it might be a 'put off'. > > > > 4. All else put aside, if I were to suspect the slightest sincerity in your asking 'that' set of questions, I might be more than willing to dialogue over them with you. They were transparently insincere and malicious. > > > > Sonia Jabbar was wrong in suggesting that you were being 'naive'. Sonia was right in calling your questions 'offensive'. I would have used the words 'crude' and 'insulting' > > > > 5. Sonia again called it right in telling you "... it seems you have made up your mind about why the Pandits have not returned long before you wrote your post...." > > > > 6. If your questions were actually 'sincere' then for someone who commentates so regularly on Kashmir, your questions (especially in the manner they were framed) displayed a lack of in-depth understanding of Kashmir Affairs. Maybe you need to introspect after shedding preconcieved notions. > > > > 7. Another factor you might want to look at could be your lack of credibility both as a journalist as well as of the person that you are which might dissuade someone (like me) from readily responding to you. > > > > The 'contents' and the 'bias' of your writings are only a part of that 'lack of credibility'. (Making a silly reference by connecting the Dharmarth Trust to KPs is a minor recent example. After it being pointed out, your not acknowledging your mistake only made it worse) > > > > (Wish someone would teach me how SARAI archives can be easily searched) > > > > Do you remember your shooting your mouth off and accusing one Abhishek Behl of plaigiarism? Do you remember it being pointed out to you that you were in error in your accusation because Behl had clearly stated that he was reproducing 'verbatim' a document issued by Campaign for Judicial Accountability and Judicial Reforms (CJAJR)? What you did not do is to express regrets for wrongfully accusing someone of plaigiarism or apologise to Behl in the same public space where you had so freely accused him. > > > > That Shivam made questionable (for me) both your journalistic and personal ethics. It should not surprise you if you are not taken seriously. > > > > 8. What I found amusing is your agreeing with Sonia, when she confronted you, that the KPs are not a homogenous community. > > > > Actually you yourself had said as much (in different words) in your first ".. not making these allegations but asking questions" post. You had written " Like all communities the Pandits are a divided community. ........ Everyone has different reasons and different circumstances." > > > > Shivam, if you know there is no homogenity then consider how incongruous your questions were in their generalisations and how offensive and malicious they were (in the manner in which they were framed with accusations contained therein). Consider Shivam what a sorry figure the smug arrogance in your questions cut, when in the same breath you stated "Everyone has different reasons and different circumstances." Hoisted on your own contradictions. > > > > 9. If your other meaningless dalliances of intellect (or lack of it) were not enough, you had to go ahead and top it all with your " Sometimes I wonder whether Kshmendra exists at all" > > > > You poor pitiable confounded soul. Take your pick from either of the two possibilities as an answer: > > > > - I write, therefore I am > > - I am, therefore I write > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् wrote: > > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration > To: "Pawan Durani" > Cc: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "sarai list" > Date: Friday, July 18, 2008, 3:59 PM > > Dear Pawan, > > Many thanks for your reply, although it was directed at Kshmendra, who > has surprisingly not replied so far. Sometimes I wonder whether > Kshmendra exists at all or if he is elusive like the solution to the > Kashmir dispute. > > > Regarding the 16000 crore package , the finer things > > about the package is not known to many people and > > most of the media just caught up with the headlines. > > We may discuss the 16000 crore package sometime else. > > The details have indeed come out: > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=26_4_2008&ItemID=51&cat=1 > > Your attempt to brush this away makes me wonder even more: now when > the government is paying to share substantial costs to return to the > Valley, now that militancy is at its lowest, why don't you return? > More details about how the package would be operationalised are > immaterial because various Pandit leaders have rejected the very idea > outright. > > > When you quote that many Kashmiri hindu businessman spend 6 > > months in Kashmir , i may not disagree that the few people do. > > I am sure you know the percentage of Kashmiri > > Hindu businessmen . Kindly share it with rest of the group. > > My idea is that it is less than 1%. > > Well, I met some such and was told about them. But the point is that > if it is safe for some to live for six months, why is it unsafe for > others to live for twelve months? You can say that a certain district > is still unsafe, you arre afraid, but why can't those in Srinagar want > to return. > > One point you haven't answered is: WHY WOULD SOMEONE WHO HAS SOLD HIS > PROPERTY RETURN? I am told that 7 in 10 migrants have sold their > properties and have thus given up their stake in the valley - > something that the Pandits who refused to migrate are pained about. > What are the reasons for selling property? > > > where they are welcome as tourist > > but not as permanent residents > > This is completely untrue. The local population is in fact guilty that > the Pandits were kicked out in the first place, and the 'separatists' > regret it even more because the Indian government used the plight of > the Pandits as a scoring point against the separatists. > > (For the same reason not a single yatri was attacked, and in fact > Muslims held langars in Srinagar, during nine days of strike, > agitation and CRPF firing in the Valley. It was not so much an act of > charity but a politically calculated act of restraint.) > > > Also once bitten is twice shy , and Kashmiri > > Hindus have been bitten more than 8 times in last 1000 years . > > And the Pandits have been migrating for ages. In my city, Lucknow, > they have had a rich history, as also in Delhi. Not all Pandits are > refugees, and not all pandit refugees live / lived in camps - somehow > the discourse on pandits have stereotyped a hardworking, literate, > upwardly mobile community as refugees and nothing else. > > > This time the return has to be on terms of Kashmiri Hindus. > > And one of the term is a separate homeland with a > > full flow of Indian constitution. > > Pandits did not leave Kashmir in protest of the J&K constitution. In > 1989 Pandits did not say, "Extend Indian Constitution to Kashmir or > we'll leave." They left because of threats of violence and if the > threats of violence have been replaced by calls for return and > assurances of safety, why don't they return? And most refugees went to > nearby Jammu where the 'full flow' of the Indian Constitution applies > as much as it does in Sopore. There were also Pandits displaced within > the valley many of whom have accepted a rehabilitation package from > the J&K government. > > Why should Pandits have a separate homeland? And if that is what they > want, why shouldn't Kashmir have independence from India? This seems > to be going in the logic of the Partition of India. The kashmir issue > is an unsettled sore thumb of the partition. > > The Pandits were and are a part of the state of Jammu and Kashmir > which had independence for three months, which is the only state to > have its own flag, its own Constitution, rules debarring outsiders > from buying land. It has 28 vacant seats for PoK but this logic is not > extended to the Parliament of India. J&K has a UN observer mission, it > has an LoC rather than an international border - in short, even the > Constitution of India indirectly admits that kashmir is a disputed > territory. > > Now you can demand a separate homeland for Pandits or demand whatever > whether you are living in Anantnag or Amsterdam. But, again: that is > not why you left Kashmir. You left because of killings and threats, > and now that they are no more, why don;t you return? And cosnidering > you have sold your land, do you even want to return? Would my dear > friend ARK leave Ramjas College and go to Kashmir University - or the > Vaishnu Devi university or the proposed Sharda Peeth for that matter? > If 2500 people who are still there and who never migrated, can live > there, why can't you? > > And Kashmir has something stronger than the 'full flow' of the Indian > Constitution. It has the Indian army, BSF, CRPF at every nook and > corner. > > best > shivam > > > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:04 AM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > > Dear Shivam , > > > > I appreciate your curiosity. > > > > Regarding the 16000 crore package , the finer things about the package is > not known to many people and most of the media just caught up with the > headlines. We may discuss the 16000 crore package sometime else. > > > > When you quote that many Kashmiri hindu businessman spend 6 months in > Kashmir , i may not disagree that the few people do. I am sure you know the > percentage of Kashmiri Hindu businessmen . Kindly share it with rest of the > group. My idea is that it is less than 1%.So if less than 1% Kashmiri Hindus > visit Kashmir , where they are welcome as tourist but not as permanent > residents , that should not be a quoting figure for normalcy. > > > > Also once bitten is twice shy , and Kashmiri Hindus have been bitten more > than 8 times in last 1000 years . This time the return has to be on terms of > Kashmiri Hindus.And one of the term is a separate homeland with a full flow of > Indian constitution. > > > > For Kashmiri Hindus , the political reasons do not make any reason for > their non returning . They don't have a representative in assembly or the > national parliament. The reason has everything to what they had witnessed > sometimes back , which made them run away to save lives and honour. > > > > Regards > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > On 7/17/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > wrote: > >> > >> While a typo can be ignored, the question is worth asking: what > prevents > >> pandits from being 'faciliated' to return? Militancy has > declined, nobody is > >> holding a gun to Pandits' temples and quita few happily > (especially > >> businessmen) are spending six months in the Valley and six in Delhi. > But > >> many. Why has the package of Rs. 16,000 crores been rejected? Do > Pandits > >> even want to reurn, considering 70% have sold their land back home? > And why > >> don't they want to return, considering they can buy land? Is it > political > >> reasons rather than safety? Is is that many non-Jammu migrants are > well > >> settled in Delhi, Pune, Bangalore, New York? Is it that returning > would mean > >> giving up the political uses of victimhood and let > 'separatists' say, "Look, > >> even the Pandits are back." I am not making these allegations but > asking > >> questions. Like all communities the Pandits are a divided community. > >> Kshmendra Kaul does not represent them all. Everyone has different > reasons > >> and different circumstances. > >> > >> best > >> shivam > >> > >> > >> On 7/16/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > >> > > >> > A "International Kashmir Peace Conference" was held > Washington D.C, > >> > 14th-15th July. It adopted the "Washington > Declaration". > >> > > >> > The website of "Association of Humanitarian Lawyers", > one of the sponsors > >> > of the Conference, furnishes the text of the > "Declaration" > >> > > >> > Point 8 in it reads "The Conference calls for protection of > all minorities. > >> > All the displaced persons including Kashmiri bandits should be > facilitated > >> > to return to their ancestral home." > >> > > >> > http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html > >> > > >> > Did not know that "bandits" had been displaced out of > Kashmir. At least > >> > they are being called 'displaced' and not > 'migrants' > >> > > >> > KK > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ -- /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 00:11:00 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 11:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration In-Reply-To: <4785f1e20807191011h47657c19yec514e476870d7c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <938455.20279.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Pranesh   Thank you Sir. Will be of immense help.   Being somewhat uneducated in these matters, I would 'search' month by month by month by month by.................... in SARAI ARCHIVES.   Take care   Kshmendra --- On Sat, 7/19/08, Pranesh Prakash wrote: From: Pranesh Prakash Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "Shivam Vij" Cc: "sarai list" Date: Saturday, July 19, 2008, 10:41 PM Dear Mr. Kaul, You could go to http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fmail.sarai.net%2Fpipermail%2Freader-list%2F&btnG=Search&meta= and do a search for whatever you wish.   If it is "Dharmarth Trust" you wish to search for, use: http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en&q=%22Dharmarth+Trust%22+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fmail.sarai.net%2Fpipermail%2Freader-list%2F&btnG=Search&meta= Hope that helps.  Please note that this method will throw up results based on "relevance" and "PageRank [TM]" and not based on date. Regards, Pranesh On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 19:24, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: (Wish someone would teach me how SARAI archives can be easily searched) From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 04:29:50 2008 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 15:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs In-Reply-To: <4882287E.80006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <862138.16464.qm@web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> "it is > appropriate to focus > > on the enabling process through which the > poor,disadvantaged,physically > > challenged,disabled and needy candidates are provided > necessary > > support,facilities and environment to raise their > level of learning and > > competitiveness to stand on their own." Adding to this,I think the education system in India is basically flawed. Its the legacy of Macaulay thats been perpetuated by this education system.When about 80% of India is self employed, why is our education system designed solely to churn up clerks\doctors\engineers? What use it is for say,the adivaasi farmers of bastar? The education system,even starting from primary education, should focus more on self employment and fostering entrepreneurship,and it should be tailored according to local needs. Rahul --- On Sat, 7/19/08, Tapas Ray wrote: > From: Tapas Ray > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs > To: "sarai list" > Date: Saturday, July 19, 2008, 11:16 PM > Kshemendra, > > Here's his response. I have asked him to subscribe, so > that he can carry > on the conversation directly. > > Tapas > > > > Prabhakar Singh wrote: > > > > > > Instead of focussing more on increasing the seats for > admission in > > educational institutions or any other field it is > appropriate to focus > > on the enabling process through which the > poor,disadvantaged,physically > > challenged,disabled and needy candidates are provided > necessary > > support,facilities and environment to raise their > level of learning and > > competitiveness to stand on their own.Lowering the > bar through > > reservations is not desirable as it may prove to be > disastrous in the > > important and critical services. > > > > Prabhakar > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Tapas > > > > > > > > I think I am getting afflicted by the "I too want > to say something on > > this topic" disease. > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in Sun Jul 20 11:21:44 2008 From: ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in (Ranjith Thankappan) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:21:44 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Filth of tradition continues... Message-ID: <357235.81233.qm@web8710.mail.in.yahoo.com> Printer Friendly Version Schools, Toilets Or Temples? By Pardeep 19 July, 2008 Countercurrents.org “Many people would rather die than think, infact most do.” - Bertrand Russell Few days back The Endowment Department of Andhra Pradesh (Warangal) decided they will establish “Institute of Temple Management”, which would offer courses & will train people for managing temple activities effectively. Facilities like “Sarva darsanam” &”prasadam” for Rs 5 will be provided at all the 34,000 temples in the state. (Indian Express 13th April, 2008) i.e. to visit temples for Darsanam you need to pay!! I was wondering there are not even half the numbers of secondary schools in the state!! Total number of secondary schools in Andhra Pradesh according to National Information Centre is not more than 15000 (approx.) (about 10000 in rural area & 5000 in urban area)!!! At every street corner we have built temples but not toilets or schools & afterwards killing each other on the name of same God!! How shameful it is!! India is the only country with so many Gods, well wishers (I’ll say fake Gods) but still poor in many fields!! In Andhra Pradesh (South India), 52 upper primary schools were operating without a building in 2002, while in 1993, there was none!!! The sub-Saharan Africa countries where people don’t even get enough food but literacy rate is higher (61.2%) than India (61%) - Source: 2000-2004 data from the Education for All Global Monitoring Report, UNESCO (2006)!! The Fifth All India Educational Survey (AIES) revealed that approximately 94% of the national population had access to a primary school within 1 km of their habitation (NCERT, 1990). But how many even complete primary educations? This is the main question. Isn’t it? Many teachers even register the names of students who never even see the face of schools!! There is another worrisome part an emerging trend whereby children belonging to different social backgrounds are attending different kinds of schools. In Andhra Pradesh, there is a divide between the government primary school (GPS) located in the Dalit basti and the GPS in the forward caste hamlet — only SC students attend the former school, while the latter has very few SC students. The youth in the SC colony in the village categorically stated that even if children from the SC colony try to seek admission in the other GPS, they are discouraged and told to attend the school in their own colony. A similar divide was observed in Tamil Nadu between the GPS and the schools run by the Adi-Dravida Welfare Board. (From “Beyond the numbers” study conducted by Vimala Ramachandran) A school (from Greek scholeion) is an institute designed to allow and encourage students to learn. What these Indian schools will encourage where students don’t even find teachers in the schools (A survey showed about 25% teachers were not present at school time & another half was busy with other than educational activities like making voting cards & doing some surveys)!! Not much infrastructure, not even buildings!! What will encourage students here?? But how shameful that our Govts are more concerned about the salaries of temple employees & in building houses for them!! Govts themselves don’t want to give much intention towards education as most of them consider this is not profitable business!! How is India doing in terms of the common measures of schooling quality, namely school facilities and teacher effort? The Public Report on Basic Education (PROBE Team, 1999) was the first serious evidence-based study of the state of primary schooling quality in India. It is based on a survey of schooling facilities in 242 villages across five north Indian states Bihar, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh and Himachal Pradesh in 1996. PROBE found very poor school infrastructure, e.g. 26% of schools did not have a blackboard in every classroom, 52% had no playground, 59% no drinking water, 89% no toilet, 59% no maps or charts, 75% no toys, 77% no library and 85% no musical instruments (PROBE Team, 1999). India’s economic growth rates have generated much hype about its general economic development. But has there been accompanying progress in indicators of educational outcomes? How good are Indian educational achievements in relation to China’s, the country with which India has habit of being compared? What are the most significant developments in Indian school education and what has been the impact of various education policy initiatives? There is big question mark over all these & many other questions!! Build more Toilets rather than Temples!! It’s to be kept in mind that most of the diseases/deaths are caused by polluted drinking water. Less than 50% of India's population has toilets in their homes. Our cities look like extended slums, towns are filthy dumps and villages often smell strongly like excreta. It’s interesting to note Hindus consider cleanliness important but task of cleanliness impure, lower!! Don’t this contradicting? In the book "Area of Darkness" (written in 1964) V.S. Naipaul explores an extremely dark account of India and details how dirty the country is. Naipaul in his books writes that elsewhere in world approach to villages through countryside is a pleasant experience but not in India where visitor to villages is welcomed by smell of human excreta. He observed it in decades of 70s but it is still true in most of villages in India. The dry latrines and open fields that people are forced to defecate in are cleaned by “manual scavengers” – humans, 99% percent of whom are Dalits and 90% of whom are women, who are made to clean them with a simple broom and basket. In India, manual scavenging is a caste-based occupation carried out by dalits. The manual scavengers have different caste names in different parts of the country: bhangis in Gujarat, pakhis in Andhra Pradesh, and sikkaliars in Tamil Nadu. The Employment of Manual Scavengers and Construction of Dry Latrines (Prohibition) Act was enacted in 1993, but has proved ineffective in eliminating manual scavenging. The Act prohibits the employment of manual scavengers or construction of dry latrines not connected to proper drainage channels and violations of the provisions of the Act can lead to imprisonment for up to one year and/or a fine of up to 2000 rupees. In 1989 there were 600,000 scavengers while by 1995-96 the number had increased to 787,000 (a 31.6 % increase in less than a decade). Similarly, there were 720,500,000 dry latrines in 1989, but by January 2000 the number had increased by 9,600,000. With the increase of urbanization, manual scavenging is increasing. More and more Dalits are compelled to take the job as the changing economic scenario is offering less and less jobs for them. Gujarat’s C.M. Narendra Modi, glorifies this inhumane occupation of Dalits. In his recent book, Karmayog, Modi states, “Scavenging must have been a spiritual experience for the Valmiki caste.” He further goes on to say, “At some point in time somebody must have got enlightenment in scavenging. They must have thought that it is their duty to work for the happiness of the entire society and the Gods.” “If this occupation is such a spiritual enlightenment experience, why doesn’t Mr. C.M. take up this job & get enlightened?” All this & many other points show how much our own Govts are concerned on developing safe & progressing environment. Our Governments are sleeping; young people are yelling, future (children) is in dark!! What we need!! · New localities with amenities like hi-tech schools, sanitation, water etc for better lives of people. · More job opportunities for poor people those are involved in manual scavenging, so as they can quit this inhuman job & can live with dignity. · More new schools, special schools for poor children those involved in manual scavenging. · More scholarships for poor needy students. · There should be made provision if any manual scavenging case comes from particular area, concerned authorities should be panelized for that. · Free books distribution for all students. Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Jul 20 11:44:52 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:44:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807191016n15fa134bwa541f5c9696c6982@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30807180329g2c683987k69efa5f2ccbd3341@mail.gmail.com> <840925.48146.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <9c06aab30807191016n15fa134bwa541f5c9696c6982@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807192314l27dd6e6bx786742481c5758ac@mail.gmail.com> I recollect a quote by Johann Goethe ....who said "I will listen to any one's convictions, but pray keep your doubts to yourself." Pawan Durani www.thekashmir.wordpress.com On 7/19/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Dear Kshmendra, > > The tone of your message further convinces me that you are someone else. > > best > shivam > > On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 7:24 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > > > Dear Shivam > > > > > > > > 1. Your mail was not directed at me. It was not addressed to me. Next > time you want me to respond, it would be better if you addressed me. > > > > > > > > 2. Even if you do address it me, it is not neccessary that I will respond > to you. That should not surprise you of all the people. If you choose not to > respond to people when they address you or ask questions off you, it should > not surprise you if you are treated in the same manner. > > > > > > > > 3. You should also perhaps be patient in receiving a response, if one is > coming at all. "Shivam asks" might be for you a snap of fingers expecting a > speedy response. Might not mean much to others. On the contrary it might be > a 'put off'. > > > > > > > > 4. All else put aside, if I were to suspect the slightest sincerity in > your asking 'that' set of questions, I might be more than willing to > dialogue over them with you. They were transparently insincere and > malicious. > > > > > > > > Sonia Jabbar was wrong in suggesting that you were being 'naive'. Sonia > was right in calling your questions 'offensive'. I would have used the words > 'crude' and 'insulting' > > > > > > > > 5. Sonia again called it right in telling you "... it seems you have > made up your mind about why the Pandits have not returned long before you > wrote your post...." > > > > > > > > 6. If your questions were actually 'sincere' then for someone who > commentates so regularly on Kashmir, your questions (especially in the > manner they were framed) displayed a lack of in-depth understanding of > Kashmir Affairs. Maybe you need to introspect after shedding preconcieved > notions. > > > > > > > > 7. Another factor you might want to look at could be your lack of > credibility both as a journalist as well as of the person that you are which > might dissuade someone (like me) from readily responding to you. > > > > > > > > The 'contents' and the 'bias' of your writings are only a part of that > 'lack of credibility'. (Making a silly reference by connecting the Dharmarth > Trust to KPs is a minor recent example. After it being pointed out, your not > acknowledging your mistake only made it worse) > > > > > > > > (Wish someone would teach me how SARAI archives can be easily searched) > > > > > > > > Do you remember your shooting your mouth off and accusing one Abhishek > Behl of plaigiarism? Do you remember it being pointed out to you that you > were in error in your accusation because Behl had clearly stated that he was > reproducing 'verbatim' a document issued by Campaign for Judicial > Accountability and Judicial Reforms (CJAJR)? What you did not do is to > express regrets for wrongfully accusing someone of plaigiarism or apologise > to Behl in the same public space where you had so freely accused him. > > > > > > > > That Shivam made questionable (for me) both your journalistic and > personal ethics. It should not surprise you if you are not taken seriously. > > > > > > > > 8. What I found amusing is your agreeing with Sonia, when she confronted > you, that the KPs are not a homogenous community. > > > > > > > > Actually you yourself had said as much (in different words) in your > first ".. not making these allegations but asking questions" post. You had > written " Like all communities the Pandits are a divided community. ........ > Everyone has different reasons and different circumstances." > > > > > > > > Shivam, if you know there is no homogenity then consider how incongruous > your questions were in their generalisations and how offensive and malicious > they were (in the manner in which they were framed with accusations > contained therein). Consider Shivam what a sorry figure the smug arrogance > in your questions cut, when in the same breath you stated "Everyone has > different reasons and different circumstances." Hoisted on your own > contradictions. > > > > > > > > 9. If your other meaningless dalliances of intellect (or lack of it) were > not enough, you had to go ahead and top it all with your " Sometimes I > wonder whether Kshmendra exists at all" > > > > > > > > You poor pitiable confounded soul. Take your pick from either of the two > possibilities as an answer: > > > > > > > > - I write, therefore I am > > > > - I am, therefore I write > > > > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् wrote: > > > > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their > ancestral home - Washington declaration > > To: "Pawan Durani" > > Cc: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "sarai list" > > Date: Friday, July 18, 2008, 3:59 PM > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > Many thanks for your reply, although it was directed at Kshmendra, who > > has surprisingly not replied so far. Sometimes I wonder whether > > Kshmendra exists at all or if he is elusive like the solution to the > > Kashmir dispute. > > > > > Regarding the 16000 crore package , the finer things > > > about the package is not known to many people and > > > most of the media just caught up with the headlines. > > > We may discuss the 16000 crore package sometime else. > > > > The details have indeed come out: > > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=26_4_2008&ItemID=51&cat=1 > > > > Your attempt to brush this away makes me wonder even more: now when > > the government is paying to share substantial costs to return to the > > Valley, now that militancy is at its lowest, why don't you return? > > More details about how the package would be operationalised are > > immaterial because various Pandit leaders have rejected the very idea > > outright. > > > > > When you quote that many Kashmiri hindu businessman spend 6 > > > months in Kashmir , i may not disagree that the few people do. > > > I am sure you know the percentage of Kashmiri > > > Hindu businessmen . Kindly share it with rest of the group. > > > My idea is that it is less than 1%. > > > > Well, I met some such and was told about them. But the point is that > > if it is safe for some to live for six months, why is it unsafe for > > others to live for twelve months? You can say that a certain district > > is still unsafe, you arre afraid, but why can't those in Srinagar want > > to return. > > > > One point you haven't answered is: WHY WOULD SOMEONE WHO HAS SOLD HIS > > PROPERTY RETURN? I am told that 7 in 10 migrants have sold their > > properties and have thus given up their stake in the valley - > > something that the Pandits who refused to migrate are pained about. > > What are the reasons for selling property? > > > > > where they are welcome as tourist > > > but not as permanent residents > > > > This is completely untrue. The local population is in fact guilty that > > the Pandits were kicked out in the first place, and the 'separatists' > > regret it even more because the Indian government used the plight of > > the Pandits as a scoring point against the separatists. > > > > (For the same reason not a single yatri was attacked, and in fact > > Muslims held langars in Srinagar, during nine days of strike, > > agitation and CRPF firing in the Valley. It was not so much an act of > > charity but a politically calculated act of restraint.) > > > > > Also once bitten is twice shy , and Kashmiri > > > Hindus have been bitten more than 8 times in last 1000 years . > > > > And the Pandits have been migrating for ages. In my city, Lucknow, > > they have had a rich history, as also in Delhi. Not all Pandits are > > refugees, and not all pandit refugees live / lived in camps - somehow > > the discourse on pandits have stereotyped a hardworking, literate, > > upwardly mobile community as refugees and nothing else. > > > > > This time the return has to be on terms of Kashmiri Hindus. > > > And one of the term is a separate homeland with a > > > full flow of Indian constitution. > > > > Pandits did not leave Kashmir in protest of the J&K constitution. In > > 1989 Pandits did not say, "Extend Indian Constitution to Kashmir or > > we'll leave." They left because of threats of violence and if the > > threats of violence have been replaced by calls for return and > > assurances of safety, why don't they return? And most refugees went to > > nearby Jammu where the 'full flow' of the Indian Constitution applies > > as much as it does in Sopore. There were also Pandits displaced within > > the valley many of whom have accepted a rehabilitation package from > > the J&K government. > > > > Why should Pandits have a separate homeland? And if that is what they > > want, why shouldn't Kashmir have independence from India? This seems > > to be going in the logic of the Partition of India. The kashmir issue > > is an unsettled sore thumb of the partition. > > > > The Pandits were and are a part of the state of Jammu and Kashmir > > which had independence for three months, which is the only state to > > have its own flag, its own Constitution, rules debarring outsiders > > from buying land. It has 28 vacant seats for PoK but this logic is not > > extended to the Parliament of India. J&K has a UN observer mission, it > > has an LoC rather than an international border - in short, even the > > Constitution of India indirectly admits that kashmir is a disputed > > territory. > > > > Now you can demand a separate homeland for Pandits or demand whatever > > whether you are living in Anantnag or Amsterdam. But, again: that is > > not why you left Kashmir. You left because of killings and threats, > > and now that they are no more, why don;t you return? And cosnidering > > you have sold your land, do you even want to return? Would my dear > > friend ARK leave Ramjas College and go to Kashmir University - or the > > Vaishnu Devi university or the proposed Sharda Peeth for that matter? > > If 2500 people who are still there and who never migrated, can live > > there, why can't you? > > > > And Kashmir has something stronger than the 'full flow' of the Indian > > Constitution. It has the Indian army, BSF, CRPF at every nook and > > corner. > > > > best > > shivam > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:04 AM, Pawan Durani > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Shivam , > > > > > > I appreciate your curiosity. > > > > > > Regarding the 16000 crore package , the finer things about the package > is > > not known to many people and most of the media just caught up with the > > headlines. We may discuss the 16000 crore package sometime else. > > > > > > When you quote that many Kashmiri hindu businessman spend 6 months in > > Kashmir , i may not disagree that the few people do. I am sure you know > the > > percentage of Kashmiri Hindu businessmen . Kindly share it with rest of > the > > group. My idea is that it is less than 1%.So if less than 1% Kashmiri > Hindus > > visit Kashmir , where they are welcome as tourist but not as permanent > > residents , that should not be a quoting figure for normalcy. > > > > > > Also once bitten is twice shy , and Kashmiri Hindus have been bitten > more > > than 8 times in last 1000 years . This time the return has to be on terms > of > > Kashmiri Hindus.And one of the term is a separate homeland with a full > flow of > > Indian constitution. > > > > > > For Kashmiri Hindus , the political reasons do not make any reason for > > their non returning . They don't have a representative in assembly or the > > national parliament. The reason has everything to what they had witnessed > > sometimes back , which made them run away to save lives and honour. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > On 7/17/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > > wrote: > > >> > > >> While a typo can be ignored, the question is worth asking: what > > prevents > > >> pandits from being 'faciliated' to return? Militancy has > > declined, nobody is > > >> holding a gun to Pandits' temples and quita few happily > > (especially > > >> businessmen) are spending six months in the Valley and six in Delhi. > > But > > >> many. Why has the package of Rs. 16,000 crores been rejected? Do > > Pandits > > >> even want to reurn, considering 70% have sold their land back home? > > And why > > >> don't they want to return, considering they can buy land? Is it > > political > > >> reasons rather than safety? Is is that many non-Jammu migrants are > > well > > >> settled in Delhi, Pune, Bangalore, New York? Is it that returning > > would mean > > >> giving up the political uses of victimhood and let > > 'separatists' say, "Look, > > >> even the Pandits are back." I am not making these allegations but > > asking > > >> questions. Like all communities the Pandits are a divided community. > > >> Kshmendra Kaul does not represent them all. Everyone has different > > reasons > > >> and different circumstances. > > >> > > >> best > > >> shivam > > >> > > >> > > >> On 7/16/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > >> > > > >> > A "International Kashmir Peace Conference" was held > > Washington D.C, > > >> > 14th-15th July. It adopted the "Washington > > Declaration". > > >> > > > >> > The website of "Association of Humanitarian Lawyers", > > one of the sponsors > > >> > of the Conference, furnishes the text of the > > "Declaration" > > >> > > > >> > Point 8 in it reads "The Conference calls for protection of > > all minorities. > > >> > All the displaced persons including Kashmiri bandits should be > > facilitated > > >> > to return to their ancestral home." > > >> > > > >> > http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html > > >> > > > >> > Did not know that "bandits" had been displaced out of > > Kashmir. At least > > >> > they are being called 'displaced' and not > > 'migrants' > > >> > > > >> > KK > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > _________________________________________ > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > List archive: > > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > -- > > /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > > > > -- > /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 20 14:36:57 2008 From: kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk (Kashmir Affairs) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 09:06:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat Habibullah - My Kashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <662241.56858.qm@web27803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> My Kashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace By Wajahat Habibullah United States Institute of Peace, Washington, 2008   Murtaza Shibli [www.kashmiraffairs.org]  One of India’s finest and best known Muslim civil servants, Wajahat Habibullah has remained associated with Kashmir through his appointments to various bureaucratic posts for nearly three decades. This has given him a certain vantage point from which to watch the socio-political developments as they unfolded. However, his relationship is formed not only from his professional involvement but also emerges from a personal commitment that is evident in his book. In Srinagar, he is remembered as a pro-Kashmiri Indian bureaucrat who believed in dialogue and accommodation; in the tumultuous decade of the 1990s, he was considered the only human face of the Indian state, at a time when there was a total breakdown of the social contract and trust between the latter and the Kashmiri people. Habibullah worked tirelessly, even risking his life, to repair and restore some semblance of engagement through his efforts at various levels.   My Kashmir: Conflict and the Prospects of Enduring Peace is a perceptive memoir peppered with anecdotes that offer personal and mostly honest insights into the tensions and distrust between Kashmir and India that marked the formative years of their relationship and how such mutual suspicion led to the emergence of one of the deadliest insurgencies in the region that still claims a heavy toll of lives. The book tries to offer a sympathetic view of the Kashmir problem – not from an academic angle or political standpoint, but from a humanitarian perspective. The author draws extensively from his experiences of working both as an administrator under various local Kashmiri governments and in the offices of two Indian prime ministers. In his introduction, Habibullah asserts that although not a Kashmiri himself, he has tried to see the situation through the eyes of one committed both to India and to serving the people of Kashmir.     He points out that the government of India’s constant fear that Kashmiris might gravitate towards Pakistan has meant that ‘national security interests’ have taken precedence over everything else, including the rights of people. Giving examples from his personal experience, he tells us how Indian paramilitary forces ‘accosted…and humiliated [Kashmiris] as they returned home late from work’ [p.26] in early 1970 or how a top Border Security Force (BSF) officer, Brigadier General Randhawa,  threatened to enter the homes of Kashmiris and ‘shoot anyone they suspected of intending mischief’. [p.25] This privileging of the ‘national security interest’ affected the author as well as his civilian authority was often bypassed by the Army and police and on one occasion earned him a serious reprimand from the Chief Secretary, the senior-most bureaucrat in the state, for not being quick enough in issuing warrants for the arrest of the workers of an opposition political party. When in 1990, he requested the notoriously anti-Muslim governor Jagmohan to issue an appeal to Pandits (Kashmiri Hindus) not to leave the Kashmir valley and offer them protection, instead, Jagmohan did the opposite, thereby triggering their exodus. It also prompted the widely held belief that the Pandit migration was initiated to clear the field for the Indian Army and paramilitary forces to target Kashmiri Muslims more freely and without any collateral damage to Hindu interests.   Habibullah offers several examples of how the Indian government and its officials continue to see Kashmir through the prism solely of ‘national security’ concerns, enabling all manner of malpractices that have further fuelled feelings of alienation among Kashmiris. He himself became a victim of the same mindset when Governor Girish Saxena selectively edited his report on the notorious Kunan Poshpora rape of 1992 by the Indian Army, giving a clean chit to the personnel involved. This report deeply angered Kashmiris and cost Habibullah his credibility among them – so much so that a militant group tried to assassinate him.   This security-related concern has fed a distrust of Kashmiris in general and pervades the highest levels; the prime minister Indira Gandhi ‘not only rejected the proposal [to upgrade Srinagar airport as an International one] outright but called in her joint secretary, who had recommended acceptance, to admonish him that an ulterior motive must always be suspected in any such proposal received from that state’. [p55]. This deep distrust of Kashmiris was shared by the Indian prime minister Morarji Desai who stated during a meeting in Srinagar that “one doesn’t know whom to trust in Kashmir”. On another occasion, when Indira Gandhi was touring the valley during an election campaign in 1983, she said to Habibullah that her public gatherings ‘looked entirely fake’. The author’s own observation about the Indian Independence Day celebrations is that the Kashmiris never felt enthusiastic and ‘not even the parade or loudly played national anthem could attract an audience’. [p.29]   He makes some insightful observations about the characteristics of the Kashmiri people and calls their dexterity in weaving conspiracy theories legendary. However, his explanation of the Hazratbal siege in 1993 is a no less skilful conspiracy theory when he claims that the police made false assumptions based on the word of a head constable who was a Jama’at-i-Islami sympathiser, thus effectively placing the blame on the Jama’at. He forgets, in the process, that according to the initial intelligence reports quoted by the official media at the time, one of the reasons for the siege was the presence inside the shrine of Syed Salahudin, chief of the Hizbul Mujahideen, and foreign militants, which was eventually proved wrong. If the police constable was a Jama’at sympathiser who raised a false alarm, his information should have been implausible given the official assessments about the presence of Syed Salahudin, himself a former Jama’at activist. However, apart from this seemingly strange explanation for the genesis of the Hazratbal seige, Habibullah’s role in mitigating the crisis was phenomenal as he conducted negotiations with the holed-up militants at great risk to his own safety. His well known opposition to any hard-line military action angered the Indian army high command who allegedly tried to kill him when his car was hit by an army vehicle, severely injuring him.   The incident did not deter Habibullah who continued his efforts to seek dialogue with the pro-independence Kashmiri separatists – both militants and the political leadership. He has held various meetings and discussions with these leaders over the past two decades, opening and sustaining various channels of communications. However, he is too modest and does not give himself enough credit, despite the fact that it is his efforts that have been central to keeping alive the dialogue process between the Indian government and Kashmiri separatists. His assessment of Kashmiri separatists is that they lack leadership and vision and finds them devoid of clarity of thought or goal. He narrates an interesting anecdote about 1977 state elections as to how the Mirwaiz Moulvi Mohammad Farooq (father of current Mirwaiz Umar Farooq) tried to blackmail him by threatening to ‘set Srinagar on fire’ if Habibullah stopped him from taking a procession in support of the Janata Party headed by then Indian Prime Minister Morari Desai to which Mirwaiz was aligned at that time. He characterizes Sheikh Abdullah’s government a ‘sheikhdom’ and observes that ‘in his last years in power, Abdullah was more concerned with securing an orderly succession than with running the government’. He also claims that a Western based JKLF leader came to meet him in 2004 in Washington and offered to work for the peace process.   The author contends that ‘Islam has been pivotal to the evolving politics of Kashmir, but more as a symbol of people fighting for identity rather than its religious ramifications’ and discounts any relationship between the Kashmiri militant groups and Al Qaeda as ‘insinuations ostensibly made to curry US favor’. He questions comparisons between Kashmir and Northern Ireland adding that while there was a demographic change in Northern Ireland , there was no such thing in Kashmir – an argument hotly contested by Kashmiris. The systematic reduction of the Muslim population in Jammu and Kashmir since 1947, as evident from successive official census reports, is seen as a clear proof of demographic engineering, a fact that was raised by the Kashmiri leader Saifudin Soz, now the Indian Minister of Water Resources and head of the Congress party in Jammu and Kashmir. Also, fears of demographic change were the main reason for recent mass protests in Srinagar triggered by the illegal land transfer by the local state government to a semi-government Hindu body, the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB).   Habibullah stresses the symbolic importance of Kashmir to both India and Pakistan and calls for any settlement to keep in mind the question of national pride in both countries so that no ‘substantial compromise on territory can or should be expected – or even hoped for’. He accepts that freedom is the ‘dream of every Kashmiri’ but tends to differentiate between freedom and independence, a term Kashmiris usually use interchangeably. He contends that the Indian constitution guarantees that freedom which ‘can be achieved while retaining the territorial integrity of both India and Pakistan with the present boundaries becoming soft borders’, and advocates against an independent Kashmir saying that ‘true freedom cannot be won by independence, which would bring even more suffering and would be unacceptable to both India and Pakistan’. His argument is that ‘an independent state of 5.44 million people occupying 85,00 mostly mountainous square miles, located in one of the world’s most volatile regions amid rival nuclear powers and a number of smaller states in conflict, with potential oil wealth, is hardly likely to be left free’.    Wajahat Habibullah lives up to his reputation of being sympathetic to Kashmiris as he repeatedly refers to the pain and agony they have suffered ‘as a result of confrontations between India and Pakistan during the intervening half century’. He laments strongly the oppressive treatment of Kashmiris by the Indian state at various levels, a treatment that could be easily classified as structural violence. He observes that personal relations between political leaders of India and Kashmir ‘played a marked role in the trajectory of Jammu and Kashmir’s history’ effectively suggesting that they were overwhelmingly elite arrangements that lacked popular consent or appeal. He places the need for the restoration of Kashmiri dignity and self respect at the heart of his argument. Expressing sympathy with the Kashmiri perception of a long history of continuous humiliation since accession to India in 1947, he calls upon India to concede those rights and liberties that are the entitlement of ‘every Indian citizen’ and prophesies that otherwise ‘simmering resentments in Kashmir will render any abiding peace elusive’. He is greatly perturbed about Kashmiris being held in contempt by both India and Pakistan as a people that can be ‘bought and sold’, and argues that such an attitude has added to the complexities in the relationship between India and Kashmir.   He describes the autonomy report prepared by the Farooq Abdullah government in 2000 as flawed, but calls its rejection by the central Indian government as an opportunity squandered.  Habibullah constantly points out the confusions and contradictions in New Delhi’s Kashmir policy as a result of competing and confusing views across various government departments. In his view, the dialogue between the Hurriyat leaders and New Delhi’s interlocutor NN Vohra (currently the governor of Jammu and Kashmir ) failed due to this sort of confusion, which eroded the credibility of the then prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee among the Hurriyat leaders. He assesses the deep-rooted suspicion of Kashmiris as the main bottleneck for future negotiations and argues that the credibility of Indian institutions in Kashmir remains fragile. He calls for a ‘balance between immediate security concerns and long-term good will and cooperation’, tacitly admitting that the current peace process remains inconclusive due to the slow or absence of responses from the Indian side. He observes that the US government also shares the view that Pakistan has been more forthcoming with compromises than India in the present peace process and quotes Pakistan’s High Commissioner in India, Ashraf Jehangir Qazi, who told him in early 2002 that ‘officially Pakistan was willing to compromise on the issue of Jammu and Kashmir ...however, a settlement along the LoC (Line of Control) would be seen by the Pakistani people as surrender unless the settlement was accompanied by some accommodation on India’s part”.   Despite its valuable insights and richness in anecdotal detail, Habibullah’s claim that principal reasons for militant groups to find new recruits for insurgency are more linked to economic incentives of greed rather than the grievance, grossly underestimates the effects of massive human rights violations, humiliation felt by Kashmiris on multiple accounts including increasing marginalisation.  The recently held massive public protests in the streets of Srinagar that was spearheaded and sustained by the common people should be an eye opener about the frustrations and anger of the Kashmiri population. There are also some glaring omissions in the author’s references to certain historical events. While discussing the problem of communalism [p23] he briefly mentions that Muslims in Jammu ‘migrated to Pakistan to avoid bloodbath’, conveniently forgetting about the massacre precipitated by the Maharaja that killed thousands of Muslims and forced hundreds of thousands to migrate to Pakistan. Similarly in the beginning of the chapter two, he briefly mentions the attacks on Jamaa’t-i-islami supporters following the death of Zulfiqar Bhutto in 1979, but omits the details about widespread loot, plunder and arson that was engineered with the tacit support of the National Conference led government headed by Sheikh Abdullah. Several people were killed while hundreds were rendered homeless, but this does not find mention in the book.  Habibullah also tends to read the history of Partition one-sidedly and places the onus on Sir Syed Ahmad Khan for the ultimate division, but fails to recognise the role of Hindu fundamentalists, or Gandhi’s responsibility in his choice of leadership of the Congress, his distrust of Muslims as well as his invocation of Hindu symbols and mythology to cultivate mass political support.  And, lastly, the time line provided at the end of the book needs expanding to include events like 11 February 1984 – the hanging of Maqbool Bhat and other such important events that have shaped the recent history of the beleaguered region.     The merit of the book lies in the clarity of its arguments and the modest approach of the author. My Kashmir: Conflict and the Prospects of Enduring Peace is a wonderful contribution to understanding Kashmir and the efforts at peace-building there. It is hoped that the USIP will further broaden its commendable efforts to promote the peace in the region by expanding its work and resources, engaging more scholars from the area, in order to help the ongoing peace process and offer specific insights into the problem that Wajahat Habibullah strongly believes is ‘tractable’.   Interview- Wajahat Habibullah Chief Information Commissioner, India Murtaza Shibli   There is a strong lament in your book about the destruction of Kashmir. Yet you sound so hopeful of a solution. Why? Because there is a very strong yearning and will for peace and people want to live with dignity and peace. I think most of the people are sick of violence and they want to seek a solution through the constitutional and legal mechanism. It is now the duty of India, Pakistan and primarily the Kashmiri leadership to afford a sense of dignity and participation to the people of Jammu and Kashmir to ensure a long term solution. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s idea of Round Table Conference was part of extending that hope and translating it into action.   Whenever there is some hope of a solution it is punctured by some untoward incidents. The recent controversy of land transfer to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB) is exactly the kind of setback that reverses such hopes. A. The controversies like SASB  is a cause for great pain and apprehension. It is a major setback which has killed a part of me. We can’t shut our eyes to issues like this. Unfortunately, Governor SK Sinha failed to gauge the aspirations of the Kashmiri people. He equated the problems with what he had seen in the rest of the country, but Kashmir is different. Thankfully, the new governor NN Vohra has a great understanding of Kashmir unlike his predecessors and hopefully this will prove beneficial to the people of Kashmir and rest of the country.   You mention about the Indian policy being always guided by its perception of security and national interest. And now it seems to me that this ‘national interest’ is being extended to religion as well. Giving land to SASB is seen as a legitimate function and role of the Indian government for ensuring Indian presence in Kashmir. Is religion now being securitised? It has been by some, but not by the government. As you know, the land was never actually transferred, and when government became aware of the public resentment, the order was revoked.   Despite progress in the India-Pakistan peace process, the Kashmiris are very sceptical of a solution emerging. What do you think is the reason? There is frustration because the Kashmiris are feeling left out of the peace building process between India and Pakistan. Their skepticism can be mitigated by their being made part of the process. This can be achieved through different means, but basically it should flow from an effort to build trust.   There is a general belief that India’s slow or non-response to President Musharraf’s proposals killed the initial optimism about the peace process and now the new political challenges in both countries have nearly stalled the process. The General’s proposals were responded to in positive manner by no less than the Prime Minister of India. It is true however that there are those within our establishment that were averse to them. At any rate, it is my firm belief that democratic governments will be able to come to a more enduring settlement acceptable to their people and therefore such solutions will be stronger.   You make an observation in your book about the Kashmiris’ penchant for cooking up conspiracy theories. But your explanation about the Hazratbal Siege, blaming a Jama’at-i-Islami sympathiser police constable sounds like a conspiracy as well? Well, that is my suspicion, based on having been hands on in the negotiation. And the constable was the one who had delivered the highly exaggerated misinformation that provoked the siege of the shrine.   You seem to discount the massive human rights violations and its impact on fuelling insurgency and winning new recruits to it. Is there any particular reason you see the main motivation for insurgency as money rather than human rights violations and the anger that it generates? I do not discount the cost in human rights, and have spoken of my direct experience of such incidents. But I cannot claim to have covered those incidents of which I had no direct experience. And I don’t see money as the reason at all. The outbreak was precipitated by a genuine anger. That became a reason for its persistence into the mid ‘90s. After that however, money has begun to play an ever larger role. I have known several young men who have or whose parents have admitted to me as much. And this very susceptibility to take to violence for money does indeed stem from anger   You mention that freedom is the choice of every Kashmiri but then claim that this freedom is guaranteed by the Indian Constitution. How do you reconcile the two ideas? Surely the majority of Kashmiri separatists don’t want to operate within the ambit of the Indian Constitution? Freedom in my view is freedom-and freedom is guaranteed by India’s Constitution. My argument is that the Kashmiris be allowed to enjoy that freedom.   What is your position on Article 370 and how do you see certain Indian political groups like BJP who lobby for its abrogation?  Article 370 allows Jammu and Kashmir to be the only state in India to have a constitution of its own, something that is the right of every State in a federal structure like the US. Its abrogation would be regressive. But it should not be used to perpetuate the dominance of a ruling elite within J&K, as it has in the past. It must allow the people of the state as much, if not more freedom than guaranteed to the people of India by India’s constitution.   There is this greater talk about south Asia as a reference point where borders can become irrelevant. Can’t President Musharraf’s ‘Joint management’ plan for Kashmir be the beginning of a post-Westphalian South Asia? A counter-question. Why should the people of Jammu and Kashmir submit to management by another or worse still by joint management of more than one? Are any of India’s other States “managed” by the Centre?   You discount any link between Kashmiri militants and Al Qaeda, yet in many official Indian accounts a large stress is placed on the claims of International jihadism including links between the Al Qaeda and Kashmiri insurgency. I have seen no links, and I have seen the insurgency from close quarters.   How would you compare freedom of information regime in south Asia? And could this be useful in ways to promote peace and cooperation in the region? India in its Right to Information Act 2005 has among the world’s most enlightened legislations of this nature. Certainly I have been working with the Jammu and Kashmir (J&K) State government to adopt this legislation for the State, if not taking advantage of Article 379 to have an even stronger law of this nature. The J&K law passed originally in 2004 is totally without substance, and as a result has hardly been used at all. Bangladesh has in May 2008 adopted a Right to Information Ordnance based in great measure on India’s legislation; Nepal had done so earlier. Pakistan’s Freedom of Information Ordnance 2002 has some weaknesses which will need strengthening.   How do you see the current situation in Pakistan and the struggle for democracy? I have never been to Pakistan, but I have always been an ardent supporter of democracy. Unfortunately, Pakistan like many Third World countries has been experimenting with short bouts of democracy alongside dictatorship. Dictatorships succeed in the short term, but they bring ruin in the long term without much in the form of infrastructure that could effectively govern a modern state. The current situation is Pakistan is interesting and I see it as first faltering steps to bring a democracy and I wish them well. But the onus is on the newly elected government to build credible institutions and infrastructure to which people can identify with and feel a part of. It is a difficult road ahead, but I strongly hope the democracy in Pakistan flourishes. __________________________________________________________ Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 16:01:02 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 03:31:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat Habibullah - My Kashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 In-Reply-To: <662241.56858.qm@web27803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <322501.83997.qm@web57212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Some extracts from the Review and Interview that I found interesting/significant.   KK   FROM THE REVIEW   - He points out that the government of India’s constant fear that Kashmiris might gravitate towards Pakistan has meant that ‘national security interests’ have taken precedence over everything else, including the rights of people.   - When in 1990, he requested the notoriously anti-Muslim governor Jagmohan to issue an appeal to Pandits (Kashmiri Hindus) not to leave the Kashmir valley and offer them protection, instead, Jagmohan did the opposite, thereby triggering their exodus.   - Habibullah offers several examples of how the Indian government and its officials continue to see Kashmir through the prism solely of ‘national security’ concerns, enabling all manner of malpractices that have further fuelled feelings of alienation among Kashmiris.   - He makes some insightful observations about the characteristics of the Kashmiri people and calls their dexterity in weaving conspiracy theories legendary.   - His assessment of Kashmiri separatists is that they lack leadership and vision and finds them devoid of clarity of thought or goal.   - The author contends that ‘Islam has been pivotal to the evolving politics of Kashmir, but more as a symbol of people fighting for identity rather than its religious ramifications’ and discounts any relationship between the Kashmiri militant groups and Al Qaeda as ‘insinuations ostensibly made to curry US favor’   - Habibullah stresses the symbolic importance of Kashmir to both India and Pakistan and calls for any settlement to keep in mind the question of national pride in both countries so that no ‘substantial compromise on territory can or should be expected – or even hoped for’.   - He accepts that freedom is the ‘dream of every Kashmiri’ but tends to differentiate between freedom and independence, a term Kashmiris usually use interchangeably.   - ............. advocates against an independent Kashmir saying that ‘true freedom cannot be won by independence, which would bring even more suffering and would be unacceptable to both India and Pakistan’.   - He laments strongly the oppressive treatment of Kashmiris by the Indian state at various levels, a treatment that could be easily classified as structural violence.   - He places the need for the restoration of Kashmiri dignity and self respect at the heart of his argument.   - ........ he calls upon India to concede those rights and liberties that are the entitlement of ‘every Indian citizen’ and prophesies that otherwise ‘simmering resentments in Kashmir will render any abiding peace elusive’   - Habibullah constantly points out the confusions and contradictions in New Delhi’s Kashmir policy as a result of competing and confusing views across various government departments.   - ..... quotes Pakistan’s High Commissioner in India, Ashraf Jehangir Qazi, who told him in early 2002 that ‘officially Pakistan was willing to compromise on the issue of Jammu and Kashmir ...however, a settlement along the LoC (Line of Control) would be seen by the Pakistani people as surrender unless the settlement was accompanied by some accommodation on India’s part”.   FROM THE INTERVIEW Q : There is this greater talk about south Asia as a reference point where borders can become irrelevant. Can’t President Musharraf’s ‘Joint management’ plan for Kashmir be the beginning of a post-Westphalian South Asia?   A : A counter-question. Why should the people of Jammu and Kashmir submit to management by another or worse still by joint management of more than one? Are any of India’s other States “managed” by the Centre? --- On Sun, 7/20/08, Kashmir Affairs wrote: From: Kashmir Affairs Subject: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat Habibullah - My Kashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 2:36 PM My Kashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace By Wajahat Habibullah United States Institute of Peace, Washington, 2008   Murtaza Shibli [www.kashmiraffairs.org]  One of India’s finest and best known Muslim civil servants, Wajahat Habibullah has remained associated with Kashmir through his appointments to various bureaucratic posts for nearly three decades. This has given him a certain vantage point from which to watch the socio-political developments as they unfolded. However, his relationship is formed not only from his professional involvement but also emerges from a personal commitment that is evident in his book. In Srinagar, he is remembered as a pro-Kashmiri Indian bureaucrat who believed in dialogue and accommodation; in the tumultuous decade of the 1990s, he was considered the only human face of the Indian state, at a time when there was a total breakdown of the social contract and trust between the latter and the Kashmiri people. Habibullah worked tirelessly, even risking his life, to repair and restore some semblance of engagement through his efforts at various levels.   My Kashmir: Conflict and the Prospects of Enduring Peace is a perceptive memoir peppered with anecdotes that offer personal and mostly honest insights into the tensions and distrust between Kashmir and India that marked the formative years of their relationship and how such mutual suspicion led to the emergence of one of the deadliest insurgencies in the region that still claims a heavy toll of lives. The book tries to offer a sympathetic view of the Kashmir problem – not from an academic angle or political standpoint, but from a humanitarian perspective. The author draws extensively from his experiences of working both as an administrator under various local Kashmiri governments and in the offices of two Indian prime ministers. In his introduction, Habibullah asserts that although not a Kashmiri himself, he has tried to see the situation through the eyes of one committed both to India and to serving the people of Kashmir.     He points out that the government of India’s constant fear that Kashmiris might gravitate towards Pakistan has meant that ‘national security interests’ have taken precedence over everything else, including the rights of people. Giving examples from his personal experience, he tells us how Indian paramilitary forces ‘accosted…and humiliated [Kashmiris] as they returned home late from work’ [p.26] in early 1970 or how a top Border Security Force (BSF) officer, Brigadier General Randhawa,  threatened to enter the homes of Kashmiris and ‘shoot anyone they suspected of intending mischief’. [p.25] This privileging of the ‘national security interest’ affected the author as well as his civilian authority was often bypassed by the Army and police and on one occasion earned him a serious reprimand from the Chief Secretary, the senior-most bureaucrat in the state, for not being quick enough in issuing warrants for the arrest of the workers of an opposition political party. When in 1990, he requested the notoriously anti-Muslim governor Jagmohan to issue an appeal to Pandits (Kashmiri Hindus) not to leave the Kashmir valley and offer them protection, instead, Jagmohan did the opposite, thereby triggering their exodus. It also prompted the widely held belief that the Pandit migration was initiated to clear the field for the Indian Army and paramilitary forces to target Kashmiri Muslims more freely and without any collateral damage to Hindu interests.   Habibullah offers several examples of how the Indian government and its officials continue to see Kashmir through the prism solely of ‘national security’ concerns, enabling all manner of malpractices that have further fuelled feelings of alienation among Kashmiris. He himself became a victim of the same mindset when Governor Girish Saxena selectively edited his report on the notorious Kunan Poshpora rape of 1992 by the Indian Army, giving a clean chit to the personnel involved. This report deeply angered Kashmiris and cost Habibullah his credibility among them – so much so that a militant group tried to assassinate him.   This security-related concern has fed a distrust of Kashmiris in general and pervades the highest levels; the prime minister Indira Gandhi ‘not only rejected the proposal [to upgrade Srinagar airport as an International one] outright but called in her joint secretary, who had recommended acceptance, to admonish him that an ulterior motive must always be suspected in any such proposal received from that state’. [p55]. This deep distrust of Kashmiris was shared by the Indian prime minister Morarji Desai who stated during a meeting in Srinagar that “one doesn’t know whom to trust in Kashmir”. On another occasion, when Indira Gandhi was touring the valley during an election campaign in 1983, she said to Habibullah that her public gatherings ‘looked entirely fake’. The author’s own observation about the Indian Independence Day celebrations is that the Kashmiris never felt enthusiastic and ‘not even the parade or loudly played national anthem could attract an audience’. [p.29]   He makes some insightful observations about the characteristics of the Kashmiri people and calls their dexterity in weaving conspiracy theories legendary. However, his explanation of the Hazratbal siege in 1993 is a no less skilful conspiracy theory when he claims that the police made false assumptions based on the word of a head constable who was a Jama’at-i-Islami sympathiser, thus effectively placing the blame on the Jama’at. He forgets, in the process, that according to the initial intelligence reports quoted by the official media at the time, one of the reasons for the siege was the presence inside the shrine of Syed Salahudin, chief of the Hizbul Mujahideen, and foreign militants, which was eventually proved wrong. If the police constable was a Jama’at sympathiser who raised a false alarm, his information should have been implausible given the official assessments about the presence of Syed Salahudin, himself a former Jama’at activist. However, apart from this seemingly strange explanation for the genesis of the Hazratbal seige, Habibullah’s role in mitigating the crisis was phenomenal as he conducted negotiations with the holed-up militants at great risk to his own safety. His well known opposition to any hard-line military action angered the Indian army high command who allegedly tried to kill him when his car was hit by an army vehicle, severely injuring him.   The incident did not deter Habibullah who continued his efforts to seek dialogue with the pro-independence Kashmiri separatists – both militants and the political leadership. He has held various meetings and discussions with these leaders over the past two decades, opening and sustaining various channels of communications. However, he is too modest and does not give himself enough credit, despite the fact that it is his efforts that have been central to keeping alive the dialogue process between the Indian government and Kashmiri separatists. His assessment of Kashmiri separatists is that they lack leadership and vision and finds them devoid of clarity of thought or goal. He narrates an interesting anecdote about 1977 state elections as to how the Mirwaiz Moulvi Mohammad Farooq (father of current Mirwaiz Umar Farooq) tried to blackmail him by threatening to ‘set Srinagar on fire’ if Habibullah stopped him from taking a procession in support of the Janata Party headed by then Indian Prime Minister Morari Desai to which Mirwaiz was aligned at that time. He characterizes Sheikh Abdullah’s government a ‘sheikhdom’ and observes that ‘in his last years in power, Abdullah was more concerned with securing an orderly succession than with running the government’. He also claims that a Western based JKLF leader came to meet him in 2004 in Washington and offered to work for the peace process.   The author contends that ‘Islam has been pivotal to the evolving politics of Kashmir, but more as a symbol of people fighting for identity rather than its religious ramifications’ and discounts any relationship between the Kashmiri militant groups and Al Qaeda as ‘insinuations ostensibly made to curry US favor’. He questions comparisons between Kashmir and Northern Ireland adding that while there was a demographic change in Northern Ireland , there was no such thing in Kashmir – an argument hotly contested by Kashmiris. The systematic reduction of the Muslim population in Jammu and Kashmir since 1947, as evident from successive official census reports, is seen as a clear proof of demographic engineering, a fact that was raised by the Kashmiri leader Saifudin Soz, now the Indian Minister of Water Resources and head of the Congress party in Jammu and Kashmir. Also, fears of demographic change were the main reason for recent mass protests in Srinagar triggered by the illegal land transfer by the local state government to a semi-government Hindu body, the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB).   Habibullah stresses the symbolic importance of Kashmir to both India and Pakistan and calls for any settlement to keep in mind the question of national pride in both countries so that no ‘substantial compromise on territory can or should be expected – or even hoped for’. He accepts that freedom is the ‘dream of every Kashmiri’ but tends to differentiate between freedom and independence, a term Kashmiris usually use interchangeably. He contends that the Indian constitution guarantees that freedom which ‘can be achieved while retaining the territorial integrity of both India and Pakistan with the present boundaries becoming soft borders’, and advocates against an independent Kashmir saying that ‘true freedom cannot be won by independence, which would bring even more suffering and would be unacceptable to both India and Pakistan’. His argument is that ‘an independent state of 5.44 million people occupying 85,00 mostly mountainous square miles, located in one of the world’s most volatile regions amid rival nuclear powers and a number of smaller states in conflict, with potential oil wealth, is hardly likely to be left free’.    Wajahat Habibullah lives up to his reputation of being sympathetic to Kashmiris as he repeatedly refers to the pain and agony they have suffered ‘as a result of confrontations between India and Pakistan during the intervening half century’. He laments strongly the oppressive treatment of Kashmiris by the Indian state at various levels, a treatment that could be easily classified as structural violence. He observes that personal relations between political leaders of India and Kashmir ‘played a marked role in the trajectory of Jammu and Kashmir’s history’ effectively suggesting that they were overwhelmingly elite arrangements that lacked popular consent or appeal. He places the need for the restoration of Kashmiri dignity and self respect at the heart of his argument. Expressing sympathy with the Kashmiri perception of a long history of continuous humiliation since accession to India in 1947, he calls upon India to concede those rights and liberties that are the entitlement of ‘every Indian citizen’ and prophesies that otherwise ‘simmering resentments in Kashmir will render any abiding peace elusive’. He is greatly perturbed about Kashmiris being held in contempt by both India and Pakistan as a people that can be ‘bought and sold’, and argues that such an attitude has added to the complexities in the relationship between India and Kashmir.   He describes the autonomy report prepared by the Farooq Abdullah government in 2000 as flawed, but calls its rejection by the central Indian government as an opportunity squandered.  Habibullah constantly points out the confusions and contradictions in New Delhi’s Kashmir policy as a result of competing and confusing views across various government departments. In his view, the dialogue between the Hurriyat leaders and New Delhi’s interlocutor NN Vohra (currently the governor of Jammu and Kashmir ) failed due to this sort of confusion, which eroded the credibility of the then prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee among the Hurriyat leaders. He assesses the deep-rooted suspicion of Kashmiris as the main bottleneck for future negotiations and argues that the credibility of Indian institutions in Kashmir remains fragile. He calls for a ‘balance between immediate security concerns and long-term good will and cooperation’, tacitly admitting that the current peace process remains inconclusive due to the slow or absence of responses from the Indian side. He observes that the US government also shares the view that Pakistan has been more forthcoming with compromises than India in the present peace process and quotes Pakistan’s High Commissioner in India, Ashraf Jehangir Qazi, who told him in early 2002 that ‘officially Pakistan was willing to compromise on the issue of Jammu and Kashmir ...however, a settlement along the LoC (Line of Control) would be seen by the Pakistani people as surrender unless the settlement was accompanied by some accommodation on India’s part”.   Despite its valuable insights and richness in anecdotal detail, Habibullah’s claim that principal reasons for militant groups to find new recruits for insurgency are more linked to economic incentives of greed rather than the grievance, grossly underestimates the effects of massive human rights violations, humiliation felt by Kashmiris on multiple accounts including increasing marginalisation.  The recently held massive public protests in the streets of Srinagar that was spearheaded and sustained by the common people should be an eye opener about the frustrations and anger of the Kashmiri population. There are also some glaring omissions in the author’s references to certain historical events. While discussing the problem of communalism [p23] he briefly mentions that Muslims in Jammu ‘migrated to Pakistan to avoid bloodbath’, conveniently forgetting about the massacre precipitated by the Maharaja that killed thousands of Muslims and forced hundreds of thousands to migrate to Pakistan. Similarly in the beginning of the chapter two, he briefly mentions the attacks on Jamaa’t-i-islami supporters following the death of Zulfiqar Bhutto in 1979, but omits the details about widespread loot, plunder and arson that was engineered with the tacit support of the National Conference led government headed by Sheikh Abdullah. Several people were killed while hundreds were rendered homeless, but this does not find mention in the book.  Habibullah also tends to read the history of Partition one-sidedly and places the onus on Sir Syed Ahmad Khan for the ultimate division, but fails to recognise the role of Hindu fundamentalists, or Gandhi’s responsibility in his choice of leadership of the Congress, his distrust of Muslims as well as his invocation of Hindu symbols and mythology to cultivate mass political support.  And, lastly, the time line provided at the end of the book needs expanding to include events like 11 February 1984 – the hanging of Maqbool Bhat and other such important events that have shaped the recent history of the beleaguered region.     The merit of the book lies in the clarity of its arguments and the modest approach of the author. My Kashmir: Conflict and the Prospects of Enduring Peace is a wonderful contribution to understanding Kashmir and the efforts at peace-building there. It is hoped that the USIP will further broaden its commendable efforts to promote the peace in the region by expanding its work and resources, engaging more scholars from the area, in order to help the ongoing peace process and offer specific insights into the problem that Wajahat Habibullah strongly believes is ‘tractable’.   Interview- Wajahat Habibullah Chief Information Commissioner, India Murtaza Shibli   There is a strong lament in your book about the destruction of Kashmir. Yet you sound so hopeful of a solution. Why? Because there is a very strong yearning and will for peace and people want to live with dignity and peace. I think most of the people are sick of violence and they want to seek a solution through the constitutional and legal mechanism. It is now the duty of India, Pakistan and primarily the Kashmiri leadership to afford a sense of dignity and participation to the people of Jammu and Kashmir to ensure a long term solution. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s idea of Round Table Conference was part of extending that hope and translating it into action.   Whenever there is some hope of a solution it is punctured by some untoward incidents. The recent controversy of land transfer to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB) is exactly the kind of setback that reverses such hopes. A. The controversies like SASB  is a cause for great pain and apprehension. It is a major setback which has killed a part of me. We can’t shut our eyes to issues like this. Unfortunately, Governor SK Sinha failed to gauge the aspirations of the Kashmiri people. He equated the problems with what he had seen in the rest of the country, but Kashmir is different. Thankfully, the new governor NN Vohra has a great understanding of Kashmir unlike his predecessors and hopefully this will prove beneficial to the people of Kashmir and rest of the country.   You mention about the Indian policy being always guided by its perception of security and national interest. And now it seems to me that this ‘national interest’ is being extended to religion as well. Giving land to SASB is seen as a legitimate function and role of the Indian government for ensuring Indian presence in Kashmir. Is religion now being securitised? It has been by some, but not by the government. As you know, the land was never actually transferred, and when government became aware of the public resentment, the order was revoked.   Despite progress in the India-Pakistan peace process, the Kashmiris are very sceptical of a solution emerging. What do you think is the reason? There is frustration because the Kashmiris are feeling left out of the peace building process between India and Pakistan. Their skepticism can be mitigated by their being made part of the process. This can be achieved through different means, but basically it should flow from an effort to build trust.   There is a general belief that India’s slow or non-response to President Musharraf’s proposals killed the initial optimism about the peace process and now the new political challenges in both countries have nearly stalled the process. The General’s proposals were responded to in positive manner by no less than the Prime Minister of India. It is true however that there are those within our establishment that were averse to them. At any rate, it is my firm belief that democratic governments will be able to come to a more enduring settlement acceptable to their people and therefore such solutions will be stronger.   You make an observation in your book about the Kashmiris’ penchant for cooking up conspiracy theories. But your explanation about the Hazratbal Siege, blaming a Jama’at-i-Islami sympathiser police constable sounds like a conspiracy as well? Well, that is my suspicion, based on having been hands on in the negotiation. And the constable was the one who had delivered the highly exaggerated misinformation that provoked the siege of the shrine.   You seem to discount the massive human rights violations and its impact on fuelling insurgency and winning new recruits to it. Is there any particular reason you see the main motivation for insurgency as money rather than human rights violations and the anger that it generates? I do not discount the cost in human rights, and have spoken of my direct experience of such incidents. But I cannot claim to have covered those incidents of which I had no direct experience. And I don’t see money as the reason at all. The outbreak was precipitated by a genuine anger. That became a reason for its persistence into the mid ‘90s. After that however, money has begun to play an ever larger role. I have known several young men who have or whose parents have admitted to me as much. And this very susceptibility to take to violence for money does indeed stem from anger   You mention that freedom is the choice of every Kashmiri but then claim that this freedom is guaranteed by the Indian Constitution. How do you reconcile the two ideas? Surely the majority of Kashmiri separatists don’t want to operate within the ambit of the Indian Constitution? Freedom in my view is freedom-and freedom is guaranteed by India’s Constitution. My argument is that the Kashmiris be allowed to enjoy that freedom.   What is your position on Article 370 and how do you see certain Indian political groups like BJP who lobby for its abrogation?  Article 370 allows Jammu and Kashmir to be the only state in India to have a constitution of its own, something that is the right of every State in a federal structure like the US. Its abrogation would be regressive. But it should not be used to perpetuate the dominance of a ruling elite within J&K, as it has in the past. It must allow the people of the state as much, if not more freedom than guaranteed to the people of India by India’s constitution.   There is this greater talk about south Asia as a reference point where borders can become irrelevant. Can’t President Musharraf’s ‘Joint management’ plan for Kashmir be the beginning of a post-Westphalian South Asia? A counter-question. Why should the people of Jammu and Kashmir submit to management by another or worse still by joint management of more than one? Are any of India’s other States “managed” by the Centre?   You discount any link between Kashmiri militants and Al Qaeda, yet in many official Indian accounts a large stress is placed on the claims of International jihadism including links between the Al Qaeda and Kashmiri insurgency. I have seen no links, and I have seen the insurgency from close quarters.   How would you compare freedom of information regime in south Asia? And could this be useful in ways to promote peace and cooperation in the region? India in its Right to Information Act 2005 has among the world’s most enlightened legislations of this nature. Certainly I have been working with the Jammu and Kashmir (J&K) State government to adopt this legislation for the State, if not taking advantage of Article 379 to have an even stronger law of this nature. The J&K law passed originally in 2004 is totally without substance, and as a result has hardly been used at all. Bangladesh has in May 2008 adopted a Right to Information Ordnance based in great measure on India’s legislation; Nepal had done so earlier. Pakistan’s Freedom of Information Ordnance 2002 has some weaknesses which will need strengthening.   How do you see the current situation in Pakistan and the struggle for democracy? I have never been to Pakistan, but I have always been an ardent supporter of democracy. Unfortunately, Pakistan like many Third World countries has been experimenting with short bouts of democracy alongside dictatorship. Dictatorships succeed in the short term, but they bring ruin in the long term without much in the form of infrastructure that could effectively govern a modern state. The current situation is Pakistan is interesting and I see it as first faltering steps to bring a democracy and I wish them well. But the onus is on the newly elected government to build credible institutions and infrastructure to which people can identify with and feel a part of. It is a difficult road ahead, but I strongly hope the democracy in Pakistan flourishes. __________________________________________________________ Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 16:28:54 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 03:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat Habibullah - My Kashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 In-Reply-To: <662241.56858.qm@web27803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <277685.42386.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Murtaza Shibli asked Wajahat Habibullah about the possibilities (with regard to Kashmir) of borders becoming irrelevant  and of Joint Management (by India and Pakistan). WH dismissed the Joint Management idea.   This reminded me of a conversation with Murtaza Shibli a few weeks back (in another forum). The context (hopefully) will be clear in the extracted portion of my mail.   QUOTE :""""""""""""""""" All of the above does not negate the fact that there is a 'human' aspect of families who were cleaved apart in 1947-48, whatever be their percentage.  Recognising this, I had spoken about " other facilitations designed for such families rather than a 'open border' system". You insist however that "The free movement is definitely possible". I continue to disagree on that.   You say "There is a real need for open borders, as majority of people in the border areas have suffered massively". I am not arguing against the "need" but against the "possibility".   If there ever comes a time of 'open borders' between the SAARC then 'Disputed Kashmir' automatically falls under it's umbrella. Till then a "Kashmir" specific arrangement of "open borders" would be nothing short of a fantasy:   -  How will the rest of India and the rest of Pakistan be insulated from 'illegal ingress' of  "Pakistanis" and "Indians" respectively?   - Where would the Indian and Pakistani border controls start?   - Would there be Pakistani controls on India's border with "Kashmir" and Indian controls on Pakistan's border with "Kashmir"? How would that be different from " joint control?   I could go on, but the critical factor on which any arrangement would hinge would be  what you yourself  called the "the mutual biases or suspicions".   It would be naive of anyone to believe that those "mutual biases and suspicions" will go away in any hurry. Impacting that is not only the past history between the two countries but other much more disturbing trends and threats too which I will not go into for now.   That is why I spoke about " other facilitations designed for such families rather than a 'open border' system". """"""""""""""""""""""""" UNQUOTE   Kshmendra    --- On Sun, 7/20/08, Kashmir Affairs wrote: From: Kashmir Affairs Subject: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat Habibullah - My Kashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 2:36 PM My Kashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace By Wajahat Habibullah United States Institute of Peace, Washington, 2008   Murtaza Shibli [www.kashmiraffairs.org]  One of India’s finest and best known Muslim civil servants, Wajahat Habibullah has remained associated with Kashmir through his appointments to various bureaucratic posts for nearly three decades. This has given him a certain vantage point from which to watch the socio-political developments as they unfolded. However, his relationship is formed not only from his professional involvement but also emerges from a personal commitment that is evident in his book. In Srinagar, he is remembered as a pro-Kashmiri Indian bureaucrat who believed in dialogue and accommodation; in the tumultuous decade of the 1990s, he was considered the only human face of the Indian state, at a time when there was a total breakdown of the social contract and trust between the latter and the Kashmiri people. Habibullah worked tirelessly, even risking his life, to repair and restore some semblance of engagement through his efforts at various levels.   My Kashmir: Conflict and the Prospects of Enduring Peace is a perceptive memoir peppered with anecdotes that offer personal and mostly honest insights into the tensions and distrust between Kashmir and India that marked the formative years of their relationship and how such mutual suspicion led to the emergence of one of the deadliest insurgencies in the region that still claims a heavy toll of lives. The book tries to offer a sympathetic view of the Kashmir problem – not from an academic angle or political standpoint, but from a humanitarian perspective. The author draws extensively from his experiences of working both as an administrator under various local Kashmiri governments and in the offices of two Indian prime ministers. In his introduction, Habibullah asserts that although not a Kashmiri himself, he has tried to see the situation through the eyes of one committed both to India and to serving the people of Kashmir.     He points out that the government of India’s constant fear that Kashmiris might gravitate towards Pakistan has meant that ‘national security interests’ have taken precedence over everything else, including the rights of people. Giving examples from his personal experience, he tells us how Indian paramilitary forces ‘accosted…and humiliated [Kashmiris] as they returned home late from work’ [p.26] in early 1970 or how a top Border Security Force (BSF) officer, Brigadier General Randhawa,  threatened to enter the homes of Kashmiris and ‘shoot anyone they suspected of intending mischief’. [p.25] This privileging of the ‘national security interest’ affected the author as well as his civilian authority was often bypassed by the Army and police and on one occasion earned him a serious reprimand from the Chief Secretary, the senior-most bureaucrat in the state, for not being quick enough in issuing warrants for the arrest of the workers of an opposition political party. When in 1990, he requested the notoriously anti-Muslim governor Jagmohan to issue an appeal to Pandits (Kashmiri Hindus) not to leave the Kashmir valley and offer them protection, instead, Jagmohan did the opposite, thereby triggering their exodus. It also prompted the widely held belief that the Pandit migration was initiated to clear the field for the Indian Army and paramilitary forces to target Kashmiri Muslims more freely and without any collateral damage to Hindu interests.   Habibullah offers several examples of how the Indian government and its officials continue to see Kashmir through the prism solely of ‘national security’ concerns, enabling all manner of malpractices that have further fuelled feelings of alienation among Kashmiris. He himself became a victim of the same mindset when Governor Girish Saxena selectively edited his report on the notorious Kunan Poshpora rape of 1992 by the Indian Army, giving a clean chit to the personnel involved. This report deeply angered Kashmiris and cost Habibullah his credibility among them – so much so that a militant group tried to assassinate him.   This security-related concern has fed a distrust of Kashmiris in general and pervades the highest levels; the prime minister Indira Gandhi ‘not only rejected the proposal [to upgrade Srinagar airport as an International one] outright but called in her joint secretary, who had recommended acceptance, to admonish him that an ulterior motive must always be suspected in any such proposal received from that state’. [p55]. This deep distrust of Kashmiris was shared by the Indian prime minister Morarji Desai who stated during a meeting in Srinagar that “one doesn’t know whom to trust in Kashmir”. On another occasion, when Indira Gandhi was touring the valley during an election campaign in 1983, she said to Habibullah that her public gatherings ‘looked entirely fake’. The author’s own observation about the Indian Independence Day celebrations is that the Kashmiris never felt enthusiastic and ‘not even the parade or loudly played national anthem could attract an audience’. [p.29]   He makes some insightful observations about the characteristics of the Kashmiri people and calls their dexterity in weaving conspiracy theories legendary. However, his explanation of the Hazratbal siege in 1993 is a no less skilful conspiracy theory when he claims that the police made false assumptions based on the word of a head constable who was a Jama’at-i-Islami sympathiser, thus effectively placing the blame on the Jama’at. He forgets, in the process, that according to the initial intelligence reports quoted by the official media at the time, one of the reasons for the siege was the presence inside the shrine of Syed Salahudin, chief of the Hizbul Mujahideen, and foreign militants, which was eventually proved wrong. If the police constable was a Jama’at sympathiser who raised a false alarm, his information should have been implausible given the official assessments about the presence of Syed Salahudin, himself a former Jama’at activist. However, apart from this seemingly strange explanation for the genesis of the Hazratbal seige, Habibullah’s role in mitigating the crisis was phenomenal as he conducted negotiations with the holed-up militants at great risk to his own safety. His well known opposition to any hard-line military action angered the Indian army high command who allegedly tried to kill him when his car was hit by an army vehicle, severely injuring him.   The incident did not deter Habibullah who continued his efforts to seek dialogue with the pro-independence Kashmiri separatists – both militants and the political leadership. He has held various meetings and discussions with these leaders over the past two decades, opening and sustaining various channels of communications. However, he is too modest and does not give himself enough credit, despite the fact that it is his efforts that have been central to keeping alive the dialogue process between the Indian government and Kashmiri separatists. His assessment of Kashmiri separatists is that they lack leadership and vision and finds them devoid of clarity of thought or goal. He narrates an interesting anecdote about 1977 state elections as to how the Mirwaiz Moulvi Mohammad Farooq (father of current Mirwaiz Umar Farooq) tried to blackmail him by threatening to ‘set Srinagar on fire’ if Habibullah stopped him from taking a procession in support of the Janata Party headed by then Indian Prime Minister Morari Desai to which Mirwaiz was aligned at that time. He characterizes Sheikh Abdullah’s government a ‘sheikhdom’ and observes that ‘in his last years in power, Abdullah was more concerned with securing an orderly succession than with running the government’. He also claims that a Western based JKLF leader came to meet him in 2004 in Washington and offered to work for the peace process.   The author contends that ‘Islam has been pivotal to the evolving politics of Kashmir, but more as a symbol of people fighting for identity rather than its religious ramifications’ and discounts any relationship between the Kashmiri militant groups and Al Qaeda as ‘insinuations ostensibly made to curry US favor’. He questions comparisons between Kashmir and Northern Ireland adding that while there was a demographic change in Northern Ireland , there was no such thing in Kashmir – an argument hotly contested by Kashmiris. The systematic reduction of the Muslim population in Jammu and Kashmir since 1947, as evident from successive official census reports, is seen as a clear proof of demographic engineering, a fact that was raised by the Kashmiri leader Saifudin Soz, now the Indian Minister of Water Resources and head of the Congress party in Jammu and Kashmir. Also, fears of demographic change were the main reason for recent mass protests in Srinagar triggered by the illegal land transfer by the local state government to a semi-government Hindu body, the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB).   Habibullah stresses the symbolic importance of Kashmir to both India and Pakistan and calls for any settlement to keep in mind the question of national pride in both countries so that no ‘substantial compromise on territory can or should be expected – or even hoped for’. He accepts that freedom is the ‘dream of every Kashmiri’ but tends to differentiate between freedom and independence, a term Kashmiris usually use interchangeably. He contends that the Indian constitution guarantees that freedom which ‘can be achieved while retaining the territorial integrity of both India and Pakistan with the present boundaries becoming soft borders’, and advocates against an independent Kashmir saying that ‘true freedom cannot be won by independence, which would bring even more suffering and would be unacceptable to both India and Pakistan’. His argument is that ‘an independent state of 5.44 million people occupying 85,00 mostly mountainous square miles, located in one of the world’s most volatile regions amid rival nuclear powers and a number of smaller states in conflict, with potential oil wealth, is hardly likely to be left free’.    Wajahat Habibullah lives up to his reputation of being sympathetic to Kashmiris as he repeatedly refers to the pain and agony they have suffered ‘as a result of confrontations between India and Pakistan during the intervening half century’. He laments strongly the oppressive treatment of Kashmiris by the Indian state at various levels, a treatment that could be easily classified as structural violence. He observes that personal relations between political leaders of India and Kashmir ‘played a marked role in the trajectory of Jammu and Kashmir’s history’ effectively suggesting that they were overwhelmingly elite arrangements that lacked popular consent or appeal. He places the need for the restoration of Kashmiri dignity and self respect at the heart of his argument. Expressing sympathy with the Kashmiri perception of a long history of continuous humiliation since accession to India in 1947, he calls upon India to concede those rights and liberties that are the entitlement of ‘every Indian citizen’ and prophesies that otherwise ‘simmering resentments in Kashmir will render any abiding peace elusive’. He is greatly perturbed about Kashmiris being held in contempt by both India and Pakistan as a people that can be ‘bought and sold’, and argues that such an attitude has added to the complexities in the relationship between India and Kashmir.   He describes the autonomy report prepared by the Farooq Abdullah government in 2000 as flawed, but calls its rejection by the central Indian government as an opportunity squandered.  Habibullah constantly points out the confusions and contradictions in New Delhi’s Kashmir policy as a result of competing and confusing views across various government departments. In his view, the dialogue between the Hurriyat leaders and New Delhi’s interlocutor NN Vohra (currently the governor of Jammu and Kashmir ) failed due to this sort of confusion, which eroded the credibility of the then prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee among the Hurriyat leaders. He assesses the deep-rooted suspicion of Kashmiris as the main bottleneck for future negotiations and argues that the credibility of Indian institutions in Kashmir remains fragile. He calls for a ‘balance between immediate security concerns and long-term good will and cooperation’, tacitly admitting that the current peace process remains inconclusive due to the slow or absence of responses from the Indian side. He observes that the US government also shares the view that Pakistan has been more forthcoming with compromises than India in the present peace process and quotes Pakistan’s High Commissioner in India, Ashraf Jehangir Qazi, who told him in early 2002 that ‘officially Pakistan was willing to compromise on the issue of Jammu and Kashmir ...however, a settlement along the LoC (Line of Control) would be seen by the Pakistani people as surrender unless the settlement was accompanied by some accommodation on India’s part”.   Despite its valuable insights and richness in anecdotal detail, Habibullah’s claim that principal reasons for militant groups to find new recruits for insurgency are more linked to economic incentives of greed rather than the grievance, grossly underestimates the effects of massive human rights violations, humiliation felt by Kashmiris on multiple accounts including increasing marginalisation.  The recently held massive public protests in the streets of Srinagar that was spearheaded and sustained by the common people should be an eye opener about the frustrations and anger of the Kashmiri population. There are also some glaring omissions in the author’s references to certain historical events. While discussing the problem of communalism [p23] he briefly mentions that Muslims in Jammu ‘migrated to Pakistan to avoid bloodbath’, conveniently forgetting about the massacre precipitated by the Maharaja that killed thousands of Muslims and forced hundreds of thousands to migrate to Pakistan. Similarly in the beginning of the chapter two, he briefly mentions the attacks on Jamaa’t-i-islami supporters following the death of Zulfiqar Bhutto in 1979, but omits the details about widespread loot, plunder and arson that was engineered with the tacit support of the National Conference led government headed by Sheikh Abdullah. Several people were killed while hundreds were rendered homeless, but this does not find mention in the book.  Habibullah also tends to read the history of Partition one-sidedly and places the onus on Sir Syed Ahmad Khan for the ultimate division, but fails to recognise the role of Hindu fundamentalists, or Gandhi’s responsibility in his choice of leadership of the Congress, his distrust of Muslims as well as his invocation of Hindu symbols and mythology to cultivate mass political support.  And, lastly, the time line provided at the end of the book needs expanding to include events like 11 February 1984 – the hanging of Maqbool Bhat and other such important events that have shaped the recent history of the beleaguered region.     The merit of the book lies in the clarity of its arguments and the modest approach of the author. My Kashmir: Conflict and the Prospects of Enduring Peace is a wonderful contribution to understanding Kashmir and the efforts at peace-building there. It is hoped that the USIP will further broaden its commendable efforts to promote the peace in the region by expanding its work and resources, engaging more scholars from the area, in order to help the ongoing peace process and offer specific insights into the problem that Wajahat Habibullah strongly believes is ‘tractable’.   Interview- Wajahat Habibullah Chief Information Commissioner, India Murtaza Shibli   There is a strong lament in your book about the destruction of Kashmir. Yet you sound so hopeful of a solution. Why? Because there is a very strong yearning and will for peace and people want to live with dignity and peace. I think most of the people are sick of violence and they want to seek a solution through the constitutional and legal mechanism. It is now the duty of India, Pakistan and primarily the Kashmiri leadership to afford a sense of dignity and participation to the people of Jammu and Kashmir to ensure a long term solution. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s idea of Round Table Conference was part of extending that hope and translating it into action.   Whenever there is some hope of a solution it is punctured by some untoward incidents. The recent controversy of land transfer to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB) is exactly the kind of setback that reverses such hopes. A. The controversies like SASB  is a cause for great pain and apprehension. It is a major setback which has killed a part of me. We can’t shut our eyes to issues like this. Unfortunately, Governor SK Sinha failed to gauge the aspirations of the Kashmiri people. He equated the problems with what he had seen in the rest of the country, but Kashmir is different. Thankfully, the new governor NN Vohra has a great understanding of Kashmir unlike his predecessors and hopefully this will prove beneficial to the people of Kashmir and rest of the country.   You mention about the Indian policy being always guided by its perception of security and national interest. And now it seems to me that this ‘national interest’ is being extended to religion as well. Giving land to SASB is seen as a legitimate function and role of the Indian government for ensuring Indian presence in Kashmir. Is religion now being securitised? It has been by some, but not by the government. As you know, the land was never actually transferred, and when government became aware of the public resentment, the order was revoked.   Despite progress in the India-Pakistan peace process, the Kashmiris are very sceptical of a solution emerging. What do you think is the reason? There is frustration because the Kashmiris are feeling left out of the peace building process between India and Pakistan. Their skepticism can be mitigated by their being made part of the process. This can be achieved through different means, but basically it should flow from an effort to build trust.   There is a general belief that India’s slow or non-response to President Musharraf’s proposals killed the initial optimism about the peace process and now the new political challenges in both countries have nearly stalled the process. The General’s proposals were responded to in positive manner by no less than the Prime Minister of India. It is true however that there are those within our establishment that were averse to them. At any rate, it is my firm belief that democratic governments will be able to come to a more enduring settlement acceptable to their people and therefore such solutions will be stronger.   You make an observation in your book about the Kashmiris’ penchant for cooking up conspiracy theories. But your explanation about the Hazratbal Siege, blaming a Jama’at-i-Islami sympathiser police constable sounds like a conspiracy as well? Well, that is my suspicion, based on having been hands on in the negotiation. And the constable was the one who had delivered the highly exaggerated misinformation that provoked the siege of the shrine.   You seem to discount the massive human rights violations and its impact on fuelling insurgency and winning new recruits to it. Is there any particular reason you see the main motivation for insurgency as money rather than human rights violations and the anger that it generates? I do not discount the cost in human rights, and have spoken of my direct experience of such incidents. But I cannot claim to have covered those incidents of which I had no direct experience. And I don’t see money as the reason at all. The outbreak was precipitated by a genuine anger. That became a reason for its persistence into the mid ‘90s. After that however, money has begun to play an ever larger role. I have known several young men who have or whose parents have admitted to me as much. And this very susceptibility to take to violence for money does indeed stem from anger   You mention that freedom is the choice of every Kashmiri but then claim that this freedom is guaranteed by the Indian Constitution. How do you reconcile the two ideas? Surely the majority of Kashmiri separatists don’t want to operate within the ambit of the Indian Constitution? Freedom in my view is freedom-and freedom is guaranteed by India’s Constitution. My argument is that the Kashmiris be allowed to enjoy that freedom.   What is your position on Article 370 and how do you see certain Indian political groups like BJP who lobby for its abrogation?  Article 370 allows Jammu and Kashmir to be the only state in India to have a constitution of its own, something that is the right of every State in a federal structure like the US. Its abrogation would be regressive. But it should not be used to perpetuate the dominance of a ruling elite within J&K, as it has in the past. It must allow the people of the state as much, if not more freedom than guaranteed to the people of India by India’s constitution.   There is this greater talk about south Asia as a reference point where borders can become irrelevant. Can’t President Musharraf’s ‘Joint management’ plan for Kashmir be the beginning of a post-Westphalian South Asia? A counter-question. Why should the people of Jammu and Kashmir submit to management by another or worse still by joint management of more than one? Are any of India’s other States “managed” by the Centre?   You discount any link between Kashmiri militants and Al Qaeda, yet in many official Indian accounts a large stress is placed on the claims of International jihadism including links between the Al Qaeda and Kashmiri insurgency. I have seen no links, and I have seen the insurgency from close quarters.   How would you compare freedom of information regime in south Asia? And could this be useful in ways to promote peace and cooperation in the region? India in its Right to Information Act 2005 has among the world’s most enlightened legislations of this nature. Certainly I have been working with the Jammu and Kashmir (J&K) State government to adopt this legislation for the State, if not taking advantage of Article 379 to have an even stronger law of this nature. The J&K law passed originally in 2004 is totally without substance, and as a result has hardly been used at all. Bangladesh has in May 2008 adopted a Right to Information Ordnance based in great measure on India’s legislation; Nepal had done so earlier. Pakistan’s Freedom of Information Ordnance 2002 has some weaknesses which will need strengthening.   How do you see the current situation in Pakistan and the struggle for democracy? I have never been to Pakistan, but I have always been an ardent supporter of democracy. Unfortunately, Pakistan like many Third World countries has been experimenting with short bouts of democracy alongside dictatorship. Dictatorships succeed in the short term, but they bring ruin in the long term without much in the form of infrastructure that could effectively govern a modern state. The current situation is Pakistan is interesting and I see it as first faltering steps to bring a democracy and I wish them well. But the onus is on the newly elected government to build credible institutions and infrastructure to which people can identify with and feel a part of. It is a difficult road ahead, but I strongly hope the democracy in Pakistan flourishes. __________________________________________________________ Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 19:49:34 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 07:19:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Filth of tradition continues... In-Reply-To: <357235.81233.qm@web8710.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <739450.72385.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> More temples than schools in the public sphere? It is a disgusting shame for India (my country) whichever part of India it might be. No wonder we are in such a mess.   Manual scavenging I understand (from a Blog quoted below) was banned in 1993.   If Narendra Modi's words have not been quoted out of context and are the essence of his proudly stated belief, he should have been hauled up in a  Court of Law. Apart from any other penalty/punishment levied on him, he should have been asked "to undertake Community Service as a manual scavenger for 8x7x52 hours".   That brings me to the Madhukar Shukla's Blog 'Alternate Perspective'. He has given some horrifying statistics (about Manhole Workers) in a 06/12/2007 piece "Caste-Discrimination: From Subliminal to Sublimated". He quotes from various sources:   http://alternativeperspective.blogspot.com/2007/12/caste-discrimination-from-subliminal-to.html   QUOTE       Behind such imageries and descriptions, however, lurks the living reality of the "Life Inside a Black Hole" (Tehelka Magazine, Issue 47(4), Dec 08, 2007), which can be too stark and unsettling for common human consciousness to live with - And thus, the attempts to mask it, discount it, trivialise it... Excerpts from the article: "What is the weather really like inside a manhole? What happens to the shit, piss and other waste flushed down by 18.02 percent of the billion- plus population?... At least 22,327 Dalits of a sub-community die doing sanitation work every year. Safai Kamgar Vikas Sangh, a body representing sanitation workers of the Brihanmumbai Municipal Corporation (BMC), sought data under the Right to Information Act in 2006, and found that 288 workers had died in 2004-05, 316 in 2003-04, and 320 in 2002-03, in just 14 of the 24 wards of the BMC. About 25 deaths every month. These figures do not include civic hospital workers, gutter cleaners or sanitation workers on contract.... ...In Delhi, it is a humongous many-mouthed subterranean creature — a network of 5,600 km of sewers with about 1.5 lakh manholes,... which consumes 2,781 million litres of the sewage Delhi generates daily... It is indiscriminately fed a wide range of objects that causes clogs — condoms, sanitary pads, nondegradable thermocol, a variety of plastics, industrial sludge, kitchen waste, toilet cleaning acids, medical waste (syringes, blades, even placenta), glass shards, household gadgets, construction debris.... ...Entering the narrow, dark drain, the worker pushes his only weapon, the khapchi — a spliced bamboo stick — to dislodge the block... It is then that a sudden blast of putrid sludge — besides methane, hydrogen sulphide, carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide — assaults the person. “Even if we manage not to swallow the toxic muck, it manages to enter our bodies.” Odourless and colourless, the carbon gases can cause suffocation. If the worker survives the initial ordeal, he crouches inside and loads the sludge into leaky metal buckets or wicker baskets for his team to haul out. Depending on the clog, the entire operation could take up to 48 hours. “We often work after midnight. When people sleep, the flow in the sew- ers is lesser, and our work does not disturb road-users,”... ...The CEC’s 2005 survey of 200 DJB manhole workers found that... 91.5 percent of them (were)from suffering injuries and 80 percent suffering eye infections. The survey found that diseases like leptospirosis, viral hepatitis and typhoid were common.... ...Not surprisingly, most of the workers die before retirement. Owing to loss of appetite and inevitable alcoholism, many men shrink to half their size if they work 20 years. The average lifespan of a manhole worker is about 45. And if a worker does not die inside a manhole, the civic body does not offer any monetary compensation for illnesses/deaths owing to occupational hazards. In Delhi, permanent workers get a monthly “risk allowance” of Rs 50..." The CEC (Center for Education and Communication) also reported that among those who worked in the manholes: Few workers in age group 50-59; most die before retirement 35 percent illiteracy Monthly wage for daily wagers Rs 2,950 More than 40 percent of workers are not permanent though more than 90 percent of them have been working for more than five years continuously 60 percent of workers enter manholes more than 10 times a month Acute illnesses: - eye irritation (79%), - upper respiratory tract irritation (57%), - difficulty in breathing (38%), - skin rash (60.5%), - cut and injury (91.5%). Chronic illnesses: - fatigue (76%), - watering/burning of eyes (36%), - cough (72.5%), - skin irritation (41%), - skin roughness (36%), - skin rash (45.5%), - lower backache (27%) Hardly the life-conditions for "spiritual enlightenment" or experiencing the "yeh suhana mausam" (this lovely weather)!.... And if one wants to move out/up to the metaphorical state of a sonar, wouldn't that be natural? Maybe that is why we need to map caste-based discrimination on a contunuum of Subliminal to Sublimated...    UNQUOTE   TEHELKA LINK : http://www.tehelka.com/story_main36.asp?filename=Ne081207LIFE_INSIDE.asp   CEC LINK (from ASIA MONITOR RESOURCE CETRE) : http://www.amrc.org.hk/alu_article/discrimination_at_work/caste_based_discrimination_in_india_hidden_apartheid_for_dalits     Kshmendra   --- On Sun, 7/20/08, Ranjith Thankappan wrote: From: Ranjith Thankappan Subject: [Reader-list] Filth of tradition continues... To: "sarai" Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 11:21 AM Printer Friendly Version Schools, Toilets Or Temples? By Pardeep 19 July, 2008 Countercurrents.org “Many people would rather die than think, infact most do.” - Bertrand Russell Few days back The Endowment Department of Andhra Pradesh (Warangal) decided they will establish “Institute of Temple Management”, which would offer courses & will train people for managing temple activities effectively. Facilities like “Sarva darsanam” &”prasadam” for Rs 5 will be provided at all the 34,000 temples in the state. (Indian Express 13th April, 2008) i.e. to visit temples for Darsanam you need to pay!! I was wondering there are not even half the numbers of secondary schools in the state!! Total number of secondary schools in Andhra Pradesh according to National Information Centre is not more than 15000 (approx.) (about 10000 in rural area & 5000 in urban area)!!! At every street corner we have built temples but not toilets or schools & afterwards killing each other on the name of same God!! How shameful it is!! India is the only country with so many Gods, well wishers (I’ll say fake Gods) but still poor in many fields!! In Andhra Pradesh (South India), 52 upper primary schools were operating without a building in 2002, while in 1993, there was none!!! The sub-Saharan Africa countries where people don’t even get enough food but literacy rate is higher (61.2%) than India (61%) - Source: 2000-2004 data from the Education for All Global Monitoring Report, UNESCO (2006)!! The Fifth All India Educational Survey (AIES) revealed that approximately 94% of the national population had access to a primary school within 1 km of their habitation (NCERT, 1990). But how many even complete primary educations? This is the main question. Isn’t it? Many teachers even register the names of students who never even see the face of schools!! There is another worrisome part an emerging trend whereby children belonging to different social backgrounds are attending different kinds of schools. In Andhra Pradesh, there is a divide between the government primary school (GPS) located in the Dalit basti and the GPS in the forward caste hamlet — only SC students attend the former school, while the latter has very few SC students. The youth in the SC colony in the village categorically stated that even if children from the SC colony try to seek admission in the other GPS, they are discouraged and told to attend the school in their own colony. A similar divide was observed in Tamil Nadu between the GPS and the schools run by the Adi-Dravida Welfare Board. (From “Beyond the numbers” study conducted by Vimala Ramachandran) A school (from Greek scholeion) is an institute designed to allow and encourage students to learn. What these Indian schools will encourage where students don’t even find teachers in the schools (A survey showed about 25% teachers were not present at school time & another half was busy with other than educational activities like making voting cards & doing some surveys)!! Not much infrastructure, not even buildings!! What will encourage students here?? But how shameful that our Govts are more concerned about the salaries of temple employees & in building houses for them!! Govts themselves don’t want to give much intention towards education as most of them consider this is not profitable business!! How is India doing in terms of the common measures of schooling quality, namely school facilities and teacher effort? The Public Report on Basic Education (PROBE Team, 1999) was the first serious evidence-based study of the state of primary schooling quality in India. It is based on a survey of schooling facilities in 242 villages across five north Indian states Bihar, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh and Himachal Pradesh in 1996. PROBE found very poor school infrastructure, e.g. 26% of schools did not have a blackboard in every classroom, 52% had no playground, 59% no drinking water, 89% no toilet, 59% no maps or charts, 75% no toys, 77% no library and 85% no musical instruments (PROBE Team, 1999). India’s economic growth rates have generated much hype about its general economic development. But has there been accompanying progress in indicators of educational outcomes? How good are Indian educational achievements in relation to China’s, the country with which India has habit of being compared? What are the most significant developments in Indian school education and what has been the impact of various education policy initiatives? There is big question mark over all these & many other questions!! Build more Toilets rather than Temples!! It’s to be kept in mind that most of the diseases/deaths are caused by polluted drinking water. Less than 50% of India's population has toilets in their homes. Our cities look like extended slums, towns are filthy dumps and villages often smell strongly like excreta. It’s interesting to note Hindus consider cleanliness important but task of cleanliness impure, lower!! Don’t this contradicting? In the book "Area of Darkness" (written in 1964) V.S. Naipaul explores an extremely dark account of India and details how dirty the country is. Naipaul in his books writes that elsewhere in world approach to villages through countryside is a pleasant experience but not in India where visitor to villages is welcomed by smell of human excreta. He observed it in decades of 70s but it is still true in most of villages in India. The dry latrines and open fields that people are forced to defecate in are cleaned by “manual scavengers” – humans, 99% percent of whom are Dalits and 90% of whom are women, who are made to clean them with a simple broom and basket. In India, manual scavenging is a caste-based occupation carried out by dalits. The manual scavengers have different caste names in different parts of the country: bhangis in Gujarat, pakhis in Andhra Pradesh, and sikkaliars in Tamil Nadu. The Employment of Manual Scavengers and Construction of Dry Latrines (Prohibition) Act was enacted in 1993, but has proved ineffective in eliminating manual scavenging. The Act prohibits the employment of manual scavengers or construction of dry latrines not connected to proper drainage channels and violations of the provisions of the Act can lead to imprisonment for up to one year and/or a fine of up to 2000 rupees. In 1989 there were 600,000 scavengers while by 1995-96 the number had increased to 787,000 (a 31.6 % increase in less than a decade). Similarly, there were 720,500,000 dry latrines in 1989, but by January 2000 the number had increased by 9,600,000. With the increase of urbanization, manual scavenging is increasing. More and more Dalits are compelled to take the job as the changing economic scenario is offering less and less jobs for them. Gujarat’s C.M. Narendra Modi, glorifies this inhumane occupation of Dalits. In his recent book, Karmayog, Modi states, “Scavenging must have been a spiritual experience for the Valmiki caste.” He further goes on to say, “At some point in time somebody must have got enlightenment in scavenging. They must have thought that it is their duty to work for the happiness of the entire society and the Gods.” “If this occupation is such a spiritual enlightenment experience, why doesn’t Mr. C.M. take up this job & get enlightened?” All this & many other points show how much our own Govts are concerned on developing safe & progressing environment. Our Governments are sleeping; young people are yelling, future (children) is in dark!! What we need!! · New localities with amenities like hi-tech schools, sanitation, water etc for better lives of people. · More job opportunities for poor people those are involved in manual scavenging, so as they can quit this inhuman job & can live with dignity. · More new schools, special schools for poor children those involved in manual scavenging. · More scholarships for poor needy students. · There should be made provision if any manual scavenging case comes from particular area, concerned authorities should be panelized for that. · Free books distribution for all students. Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in Sun Jul 20 22:12:14 2008 From: ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in (Ranjith Thankappan) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 22:12:14 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs Message-ID: <14564.8268.qm@web8708.mail.in.yahoo.com> I wonder how powerful  the treatise of casteism is!!  the fear of the Dalit still remains in the minds of these dikus even if they become IIT professors. Merit is a brahmanic myth in the Indian context; it s constructed out of the fear of the downtrodden. Just check out history to find out why the British introduced third class. It s the sons and daughtors of the generation of these "upper" caste morons who could not pass exams to become clerks, now talk tall about merit. what a pity!!  if the so called +3500 years old literate tradition could not make these "upper" castes get a passmark, how could they unashamedly talk about merit in the same vein? that is the magic of casteism/brahminsm and its trivial tricks. Let us all unit to emancipate these brahmin-banias from the clutches of brahminsm and its false consiousness ----- Original Message ---- From: Baruk S. Jacob To: sarai ; Ranjith Thankappan Sent: Friday, 18 July, 2008 12:08:21 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs Hi Ranjith, Read the article with interest-I am in the strange position of having seen both sides of the reservation debate, and am yet to really make up my mind. A snippet caught my eye, though, "IIT-Delhi professor Pankaj Jalote said reservation for students had to be viewed differently from faculty reservation. In case of students, he said, there is no compromise on the quality of education. "But if selection of faculty is done on anything else but merit, it will affect education," Do you disagree with this? Regards, ~Baruk http://bottlebroke.blogspot.com --- On Fri, 7/18/08, Ranjith Thankappan wrote: > From: Ranjith Thankappan > Subject: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs > To: "sarai" > Date: Friday, July 18, 2008, 8:37 AM > hi > Few days back Manuwadi director (former) of IIT Madras made > a comment “'HRD minister has injected AIDS into > IITs” (Please visit this link for news > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumbai/HRD_minister_has_injected_AIDS_into_IITs/articleshow/3176486.cms) > >   > these are the kind of "meritorious" Directors > available to IITs. No wonder IITs produce IT koolies for > the developed world and degraded to the extent of > brahmanism. what a shame!! > regards > > >      Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Bring your gang together. Do your thing. Find your favourite Yahoo! group at http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From tigerfood08 at aol.com Mon Jul 21 01:18:20 2008 From: tigerfood08 at aol.com (Tiger Food) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 15:48:20 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Filth of tradition continues... In-Reply-To: <357235.81233.qm@web8710.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <357235.81233.qm@web8710.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: yo! see a shrink asap, before they commit you or you pull a columbine. tf the hooting owl Ranjith Thankappan wrote: > I wonder how powerful the treatise of casteism is!! the fear of the Dalit still remains in the minds of these dikus even if they become IIT professors. Merit is a brahmanic myth in the Indian context; it s constructed out of the fear of the downtrodden. Just check out history to find out why the British introduced third class. It s the sons and daughtors of the generation of these "upper" caste morons who could not pass exams to become clerks, now talk tall about merit. what a pity!! if the so called +3500 years old literate tradition could not make these "upper" castes get a passmark, how could they unashamedly talk about merit in the same vein? that is the magic of casteism/brahminsm and its trivial tricks. Let us all unit to emancipate these brahmin-banias from the clutches of brahminsm and its false consiousness > ----- Original Message ---- From: Baruk S. Jacob Hi Ranjith, Read the article with interest-I am in the strange position of having seen both sides of the reservation debate, and am yet to really make up my mind. A snippet caught my eye, though, "IIT-Delhi professor Pankaj Jalote said reservation for students had to be viewed differently from faculty reservation. In case of students, he said, there is no compromise on the quality of education. "But if selection of faculty is done on anything else but merit, it will affect education," Do you disagree with this? Regards, ~Baruk http://bottlebroke.blogspot.com --- On Fri, 7/18/08, Ranjith Thankappan wrote: > > From: Ranjith Thankappan > > > > hi > > Few days back Manuwadi director (former) of IIT Madras made > > a comment "'HRD minister has injected AIDS into > > IITs" (Please visit this link for news > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumbai/HRD_minister_has_injected_AIDS_into_IITs/articleshow/3176486.cms) > > > > > > these are the kind of "meritorious" Directors > > available to IITs. No wonder IITs produce IT koolies for > > the developed world and degraded to the extent of > > brahmanism. what a shame!! > > regards > > > > > > Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to > > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ > > _________________________________________ From ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in Mon Jul 21 13:33:03 2008 From: ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in (Ranjith Thankappan) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:33:03 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?4oCcSU5ESUEgVU5UT1VDSEVE4oCdIHdpbnMgU2ls?= =?utf-8?q?ver_Dhow_at_Zanzibar?= Message-ID: <520909.50399.qm@web8707.mail.in.yahoo.com> This s film evry Indian should watch. Can see funny creatures from varanasi unashamedly supporting brahmincal caste system and preaching casteism in 21st century. "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar International Film Festival 2008 July 20, 2008 Ahmedabad-based documentary filmmaker and human rights activist Stalin K. won the Silver Dhow Award for his film "India Untouched-Stories of A People Apart" at the recently Zanzibar International Film Festival in Tanzania [http://www.ziff.or.tz/winners.htm].India Untouched is said to be the most comprehensive look at the caste system prevalent in India and Stalin had spent four years traveling the length and breadth of the country to make this film. The film is produced by Drishti, a media and human rights organization and Navsarjan, a leading Dalit human rights organization. The festival, that was held in the island of Zanzibar, Tanzania, is an International Competition with 60 screenings of the best short films and feature-length documentaries from all over the world.  India Untouched was adjudged as the second best film of the festival. This is the fifth award for this film. It won the Best Documentary at the Indo American Arts Council Film Festival in New York in November 2007, the Best Film at the One Billion Eyes Film Festival in Chennai in August 2007,  the Golden Conch Award for the Best Documentary and the Best Film of the Festival Award at Mumbai International Film Festival in February 2008. It was also shown at the following festivals: DC Meets Delhi Film Festival, Washington DC, September 2007 CineCufa Festival, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, September 2007 Hamptons International Film Festival, New York, October 2007 Copenhagen International Documentary Film Festival, November 2007 Mini Indian Film Festival, Connecticut, November 2007 Mumbai International Film Festival, India, February 2008 Amnesty International Film Festival, Netherlands, March 2008 Tallahassee Film Festival, Florida, May 2008 For more information on the film: http://www.drishtimedia.org/news3.htm ________________________________ Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com.. Click here. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "grey youth movement" group.  To post to this group, send email to grey-youth-movement at googlegroups.com  To unsubscribe from this group, send email to grey-youth-movement-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com  For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/grey-youth-movement?hl=en-GB -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Tue Jul 22 12:52:14 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:22:14 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat Habibullah - MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 In-Reply-To: <277685.42386.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <662241.56858.qm@web27803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <277685.42386.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Only solution to Kashmir is mergers of Pakistan, Bangladesh along with Kashmir into secular India, which has been formed by merger of over 357 kingdoms of the yester years, in good governance make states out of these territories also with elections to throw up good leaders of each region, and in democracy, with just rule of laws, without fear or favour to any faith, caste. The national exchequer used only for good governance of all citizens without any discrimination of region, caste, faith and language. United India with all faiths is more a reality and solution to all misadventures of armies and fanatics of faiths. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008 4:29 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat Habibullah - MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 To: reader-list at sarai.net, kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk > Murtaza Shibli asked Wajahat Habibullah about the possibilities > (with regard to Kashmir) of borders becoming irrelevant  and of > Joint Management (by India and Pakistan). WH dismissed the Joint > Management idea. >   > This reminded me of a conversation with Murtaza Shibli a few weeks > back (in another forum). The context (hopefully) will be clear in > the extracted portion of my mail. >   > QUOTE :""""""""""""""""" All of the above does not negate the fact > that there is a 'human' aspect of families who were cleaved apart > in 1947-48, whatever be their percentage.  Recognising this, I had > spoken about " other facilitations designed for such families > rather than a 'open border' system". You insist however that "The > free movement is definitely possible". I continue to disagree on that. >   > You say "There is a real need for open borders, as majority of > people in the border areas have suffered massively". I am not > arguing against the "need" but against the "possibility". >   > If there ever comes a time of 'open borders' between the SAARC > then 'Disputed Kashmir' automatically falls under it's umbrella. > Till then a "Kashmir" specific arrangement of "open borders" would > be nothing short of a fantasy: >   > -  How will the rest of India and the rest of Pakistan be > insulated from 'illegal ingress' of  "Pakistanis" and "Indians" > respectively?  > - Where would the Indian and Pakistani border controls start? >   > - Would there be Pakistani controls on India's border with > "Kashmir" and Indian controls on Pakistan's border with "Kashmir"? > How would that be different from " joint control? >   > I could go on, but the critical factor on which any arrangement > would hinge would be  what you yourself  called the "the mutual > biases or suspicions". >   > It would be naive of anyone to believe that those "mutual biases > and suspicions" will go away in any hurry. Impacting that is not > only the past history between the two countries but other much > more disturbing trends and threats too which I will not go into > for now. >   > That is why I spoke about " other facilitations designed for such > families rather than a 'open border' > system". """"""""""""""""""""""""" UNQUOTE >   > Kshmendra >    > > --- On Sun, 7/20/08, Kashmir Affairs wrote: > > From: Kashmir Affairs > Subject: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat > Habibullah - My Kashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; > USIP, 2008 > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 2:36 PM > > My Kashmir: Conflict and Prospects of > Enduring Peace > > By Wajahat Habibullah > > United States Institute of Peace, > Washington, 2008 > >   > > Murtaza Shibli > > [www.kashmiraffairs.org]  > > One of India’s finest and best known > Muslim civil servants, Wajahat Habibullah has remained associated > with Kashmir > through his appointments to various bureaucratic posts for nearly > threedecades. > This has given him a certain vantage point from which to watch the > socio-political developments as they unfolded. However, his > relationship is > formed not only from his professional involvement but also emerges > from a > personal commitment that is evident in his book. In Srinagar, he > is remembered > as a pro-Kashmiri Indian bureaucrat who believed in dialogue and > accommodation;in the tumultuous decade of the 1990s, he was > considered the only human face of > the Indian state, at a time when there was a total breakdown of > the social > contract and trust between the latter and the Kashmiri people. > Habibullahworked tirelessly, even risking his life, to repair and > restore some semblance > of engagement through his efforts at various levels. > >   > > My Kashmir: Conflict and the Prospects > of Enduring Peace > is a perceptive memoir peppered with anecdotes that offer personal > and mostly > honest insights into the tensions and distrust between Kashmir and > India that > marked the formative years of their relationship and how such > mutual suspicion > led to the emergence of one of the deadliest insurgencies in the > region that > still claims a heavy toll of lives. The book tries to offer a > sympathetic view > of the Kashmir problem – not from an academic angle or political > standpoint,but from a humanitarian perspective. The author draws > extensively from his > experiences of working both as an administrator under various > local Kashmiri > governments and in the offices of two Indian prime ministers. In his > introduction, Habibullah asserts that although not a Kashmiri > himself, he has > tried to see the situation through the eyes of one committed both > to India and > to serving the people of Kashmir.   > >   > > He points out that the government of > India’s constant fear that Kashmiris might gravitate towards > Pakistan has > meant > that ‘national security interests’ have taken precedence over > everythingelse, > including the rights of people. Giving examples from his personal > experience,he tells us how Indian paramilitary forces > ‘accosted…and humiliated > [Kashmiris] > as they returned home late from work’ [p.26] in early 1970 or how > a top > Border > Security Force (BSF) officer, Brigadier General Randhawa,  > threatened to > enter the homes of Kashmiris and ‘shoot anyone they suspected of > intendingmischief’. [p.25] This privileging of the ‘national > security interest’ > affected > the author as well as his civilian authority was often bypassed by > the Army and > police and on one occasion earned him a serious reprimand from the > ChiefSecretary, the senior-most bureaucrat in the state, for not > being quick enough > in issuing warrants for the arrest of the workers of an opposition > politicalparty. When in 1990, he requested the notoriously anti- > Muslim governor Jagmohan > to issue an appeal to Pandits (Kashmiri Hindus) not to leave the > Kashmir valley > and offer them protection, instead, Jagmohan did the opposite, thereby > triggering their exodus. It also prompted the widely held belief > that the > Pandit migration was initiated to clear the field for the Indian > Army and > paramilitary forces to target Kashmiri Muslims more freely and > without any > collateral damage to Hindu interests. > >   > > Habibullah offers several examples of > how the Indian government and its officials continue to see > Kashmir through the > prism solely of ‘national security’ concerns, enabling all manner of > malpractices that have further fuelled feelings of alienation > among Kashmiris. > He himself became a victim of the same mindset when Governor > Girish Saxena > selectively edited his report on the notorious Kunan Poshpora rape > of 1992 by > the Indian Army, giving a clean chit to the personnel involved. > This report > deeply angered Kashmiris and cost Habibullah his credibility among > them – so > much so that a militant group tried to assassinate him. > >   > > This security-related concern has fed > a distrust of Kashmiris in general and pervades the highest > levels; the prime > minister Indira Gandhi ‘not only rejected the proposal [to upgrade > Srinagarairport as an International one] outright but called in > her joint secretary, > who had recommended acceptance, to admonish him that an ulterior > motive must > always be suspected in any such proposal received from that > state’. [p55]. > This > deep distrust of Kashmiris was shared by the Indian prime minister > MorarjiDesai who stated during a meeting in Srinagar that “one > doesn’t know whom > to > trust in Kashmir”. On another occasion, when Indira Gandhi was > touring the > valley > during an election campaign in 1983, she said to Habibullah that > her public > gatherings ‘looked entirely fake’. The author’s own observation > about the > Indian Independence Day celebrations is that the Kashmiris never felt > enthusiastic and ‘not even the parade or loudly played national > anthem could > attract an audience’. [p.29] > >   > > He makes some insightful observations > about the characteristics of the Kashmiri people and calls their > dexterity in > weaving conspiracy theories legendary. However, his explanation of the > Hazratbal siege in 1993 is a no less skilful conspiracy theory > when he claims > that the police made false assumptions based on the word of a head > constablewho was a Jama’at-i-Islami sympathiser, thus effectively > placing the blame on > the Jama’at. He forgets, in the process, that according to the initial > intelligence reports quoted by the official media at the time, one > of the > reasons for the siege was the presence inside the shrine of Syed > Salahudin,chief of the Hizbul Mujahideen, and foreign militants, > which was eventually > proved wrong. If the police constable was a Jama’at sympathiser > who raised a > false alarm, his information should have been implausible given > the official > assessments about the presence of Syed Salahudin, himself a former > Jama’atactivist. > However, apart from this seemingly strange explanation for the > genesis of the > Hazratbal seige, Habibullah’s role in mitigating the crisis was > phenomenal as > he conducted negotiations with the holed-up militants at great > risk to his own > safety. His well known opposition to any hard-line military action > angered the > Indian army high command who allegedly tried to kill him when his > car was hit > by an army vehicle, severely injuring him. > >   > > The incident did not deter Habibullah > who continued his efforts to seek dialogue with the pro- > independence Kashmiri > separatists – both militants and the political leadership. He has held > various > meetings and discussions with these leaders over the past two > decades, opening > and sustaining various channels of communications. However, he is > too modest > and does not give himself enough credit, despite the fact that it > is his > efforts that have been central to keeping alive the dialogue > process between > the Indian government and Kashmiri separatists. His assessment of > Kashmiriseparatists > is that they lack leadership and vision and finds them devoid of > clarity of > thought or goal. He narrates an interesting anecdote about 1977 > state elections > as to how the Mirwaiz Moulvi Mohammad Farooq (father of current > Mirwaiz Umar > Farooq) tried to blackmail him by threatening to ‘set Srinagar on > fire’ if > Habibullah stopped him from taking a procession in support of the > Janata Party > headed by then Indian Prime Minister Morari Desai to which Mirwaiz > was aligned > at that time. He characterizes Sheikh Abdullah’s government a > ‘sheikhdom’and > observes that ‘in his last years in power, Abdullah was more > concerned with > securing an orderly succession than with running the government’. > He also > claims that a Western based JKLF leader came to meet him in 2004 > in Washington > and offered to work for the peace process. > >   > > The author contends that ‘Islam has > been pivotal to the evolving politics of Kashmir, but more as a > symbol of > people fighting for identity rather than its religious > ramifications’ and > discounts any relationship between the Kashmiri militant groups > and Al Qaeda as > ‘insinuations ostensibly made to curry US favor’. He questions > comparisonsbetween Kashmir and Northern Ireland adding that while > there was a demographic > change in Northern Ireland , there was no such thing in Kashmir – > an argument > hotly contested by Kashmiris. The systematic reduction of the > Muslim population > in Jammu and Kashmir since 1947, as evident from successive > official census > reports, is seen as a clear proof of demographic engineering, a > fact that was > raised by the Kashmiri leader Saifudin Soz, now the Indian > Minister of Water > Resources and head of the Congress party in Jammu and Kashmir. > Also, fears of > demographic change were the main reason for recent mass protests > in Srinagar > triggered > by the illegal land transfer by the local state government to a > semi-government > Hindu body, the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB). > >   > > Habibullah stresses the symbolic > importance of Kashmir to both India and Pakistan and calls for any > settlementto keep in mind the question of national pride in both > countries so that no > ‘substantial compromise on territory can or should be expected – > or even > hoped > for’. He accepts that freedom is the ‘dream of every Kashmiri’ but > tendsto > differentiate between freedom and independence, a term Kashmiris > usually use > interchangeably. He contends that the Indian constitution > guarantees that > freedom which ‘can be achieved while retaining the territorial > integrity of > both India and Pakistan with the present boundaries becoming soft > borders’,and > advocates against an independent Kashmir saying that ‘true freedom > cannot be > won by independence, which would bring even more suffering and > would be > unacceptable to both India and Pakistan’. His argument is that ‘an > independent > state of 5.44 million people occupying 85,00 mostly mountainous > square miles, > located in one of the world’s most volatile regions amid rival > nuclear powers > and a number of smaller states in conflict, with potential oil > wealth, is > hardly likely to be left free’.  > >   > > Wajahat Habibullah lives up to his > reputation of being sympathetic to Kashmiris as he repeatedly > refers to the > pain and agony they have suffered ‘as a result of confrontations > betweenIndia > and Pakistan during the intervening half century’. He laments > strongly the > oppressive treatment of Kashmiris by the Indian state at various > levels, a > treatment that could be easily classified as structural violence. > He observes > that personal relations between political leaders of India and Kashmir > ‘played > a marked role in the trajectory of Jammu and Kashmir’s history’ > effectivelysuggesting that they were overwhelmingly elite > arrangements that lacked popular > consent or appeal. He places the need for the restoration of > Kashmiri dignity > and self respect at the heart of his argument. Expressing sympathy > with the > Kashmiri perception of a long history of continuous humiliation > since accession > to India in 1947, he calls upon India to concede those rights and > libertiesthat are the entitlement of ‘every Indian citizen’ and > prophesies that > otherwise ‘simmering resentments in Kashmir will render any > abiding peace > elusive’. He is greatly perturbed about Kashmiris being held in > contempt by > both India and Pakistan as a people that can be ‘bought and sold’, and > argues > that such an attitude has added to the complexities in the > relationship between > India and Kashmir. > >   > > He describes the autonomy report > prepared by the Farooq Abdullah government in 2000 as flawed, but > calls its > rejection by the central Indian government as an opportunity > squandered. Habibullah constantly points out the confusions and > contradictions in New > Delhi’s Kashmir policy as a result of competing and confusing > views across > various government departments. In his view, the dialogue between > the Hurriyat > leaders and New Delhi’s interlocutor NN Vohra (currently the > governor of > Jammu > and Kashmir ) failed due to this sort of confusion, which eroded the > credibility of the then prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee among > the Hurriyat > leaders. He assesses the deep-rooted suspicion of Kashmiris as the > mainbottleneck for future negotiations and argues that the > credibility of Indian > institutions in Kashmir remains fragile. He calls for a ‘balance > betweenimmediate security concerns and long-term good will and > cooperation’, tacitly > admitting that the current peace process remains inconclusive due > to the slow > or absence of responses from the Indian side. He observes that the US > government also shares the view that Pakistan has been more > forthcoming with > compromises than India in the present peace process and quotes > Pakistan’sHigh > Commissioner in India, Ashraf Jehangir Qazi, who told him in early > 2002 that > ‘officially Pakistan was willing to compromise on the issue of > Jammu and > Kashmir ...however, a settlement along the LoC (Line of Control) > would be seen > by the Pakistani people as surrender unless the settlement was > accompanied by > some accommodation on India’s part”. > >   > > Despite its valuable insights and > richness in anecdotal detail, Habibullah’s claim that principal > reasons for > militant groups to find new recruits for insurgency are more > linked to economic > incentives of greed rather than the grievance, grossly > underestimates the > effects of massive human rights violations, humiliation felt by > Kashmiris on > multiple accounts including increasing marginalisation.  The > recently held > massive public protests in the streets of Srinagar that was > spearheaded and > sustained by the common people should be an eye opener about the > frustrationsand anger of the Kashmiri population. There are also > some glaring omissions in > the author’s references to certain historical events. While > discussing the > problem of communalism [p23] he briefly mentions that Muslims in Jammu > ‘migrated to Pakistan to avoid bloodbath’, conveniently forgetting > aboutthe > massacre precipitated by the Maharaja that killed thousands of > Muslims and > forced hundreds of thousands to migrate to Pakistan. Similarly in > the beginning > of the chapter two, he briefly mentions the attacks on Jamaa’t-i- > islamisupporters following the death of Zulfiqar Bhutto in 1979, > but omits the > details about widespread loot, plunder and arson that was > engineered with the > tacit support of the National Conference led government headed by > SheikhAbdullah. Several people were killed while hundreds were > rendered homeless, but > this does not find mention in the book.  Habibullah also tends to > read the > history of Partition one-sidedly and places the onus on Sir Syed > Ahmad Khan for > the ultimate division, but fails to recognise the role of Hindu > fundamentalists, or Gandhi’s responsibility in his choice of > leadership of > the > Congress, his distrust of Muslims as well as his invocation of > Hindu symbols > and mythology to cultivate mass political support.  And, lastly, > the time > line provided at the end of the book needs expanding to include > events like 11 > February 1984 – the hanging of Maqbool Bhat and other such > important events > that > have shaped the recent history of the beleaguered region.   > >   > > The merit of the book lies in the > clarity of its arguments and the modest approach of the author. My > Kashmir: Conflict and the Prospects of Enduring Peace is a wonderful > contribution to understanding Kashmir and the efforts at peace- > building there. > It is hoped that the USIP will further broaden its commendable > efforts to > promote the peace in the region by expanding its work and > resources, engaging > more scholars from the area, in order to help the ongoing peace > process and > offer specific insights into the problem that Wajahat Habibullah > stronglybelieves is ‘tractable’. > >   > > > Interview- Wajahat Habibullah > > Chief Information Commissioner, India > Murtaza > Shibli > >   > > There is a strong lament in your book > about the destruction of Kashmir. Yet you sound so hopeful of a > solution. Why? > > Because > there is a very strong yearning and will for peace and people want > to live with > dignity and peace. I think most of the people are sick of violence > and they > want to seek a solution through the constitutional and legal > mechanism. > > It > is now the duty of India, Pakistan and primarily the Kashmiri > leadership to > afford a sense of dignity and participation to the people of Jammu > and Kashmir > to ensure a long term solution. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s > idea of Round > Table Conference was part of extending that hope and translating > it into > action. > >   > > Whenever there is some hope of a > solution it is punctured by some untoward incidents. The recent > controversy of > land transfer to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB) is exactly > the kind of > setback that reverses such hopes. > > A. > The controversies like SASB  is a cause > for great pain and apprehension. It is a major setback which has > killed a part > of me. We can’t shut our eyes to issues like this. Unfortunately, > Governor SK > Sinha failed to gauge the aspirations of the Kashmiri people. He > equated the > problems with what he had seen in the rest of the country, but > Kashmir is > different. Thankfully, the new governor NN Vohra has a great > understanding of > Kashmir unlike his predecessors and hopefully this will prove > beneficial to the > people of Kashmir and rest of the country. > >   > > You mention about the Indian policy > being always guided by its perception of security and national > interest. And > now it seems to me that this ‘national interest’ is being extended to > religion > as well. Giving land to SASB is seen as a legitimate function and > role of the > Indian government for ensuring Indian presence in Kashmir. Is > religion now > being securitised? > > It > has been by some, but not by the government. As you know, the land > was never > actually transferred, and when government became aware of the public > resentment, the order was revoked. > >   > > Despite progress in the India-Pakistan > peace process, the Kashmiris are very sceptical of a solution > emerging. What do > you think is the reason? > > There > is frustration because the Kashmiris are feeling left out of the > peace building > process between India and Pakistan. Their skepticism can be > mitigated by their > being made part of the process. This can be achieved through > different means, > but basically it should flow from an effort to build trust. > >   > > There is a general belief that India’s > slow or non-response to President Musharraf’s proposals killed the > initialoptimism about the peace process and now the new political > challenges in both > countries have nearly stalled the process. > > The > General’s proposals were responded to in positive manner by no > less than the > Prime Minister of India. It is true however that there are those > within our > establishment that were averse to them. At any rate, it is my firm > belief that > democratic governments will be able to come to a more enduring > settlementacceptable to their people and therefore such solutions > will be stronger. > >   > > You make an observation in your book > about the Kashmiris’ penchant for cooking up conspiracy theories. > But your > explanation about the Hazratbal Siege, blaming a Jama’at-i-Islami > sympathiserpolice constable sounds like a conspiracy as well? > > Well, > that is my suspicion, based on having been hands on in the > negotiation. And the > constable was the one who had delivered the highly exaggerated > misinformationthat provoked the siege of the shrine. > >   > > You seem to discount the massive human > rights violations and its impact on fuelling insurgency and > winning new > recruits to it. Is there any particular reason you see the main > motivation for > insurgency as money rather than human rights violations and the > anger that it > generates? > > I > do not discount the cost in human rights, and have spoken of my direct > experience of such incidents. But I cannot claim to have covered those > incidents of which I had no direct experience. And I don’t see > money as the > reason at all. The outbreak was > precipitated by a genuine anger. That became a reason for its > persistence into > the mid ‘90s. After that however, money has begun to play an ever > largerrole. > I have known several young men who have or whose parents have > admitted to me as > much. And this very susceptibility to take to violence for money > does indeed > stem from anger > >   > > You mention that freedom is the choice > of every Kashmiri but then claim that this freedom is guaranteed > by the Indian > Constitution. How do you reconcile the two ideas? Surely the > majority of > Kashmiri separatists don’t want to operate within the ambit of the > IndianConstitution? > > Freedom > in my view is freedom-and freedom is guaranteed by India’s > Constitution. My > argument is that the Kashmiris be allowed to enjoy that freedom. > >   > > What is your position on Article 370 > and how do you see certain Indian political groups like BJP who > lobby for its > abrogation? > >  Article 370 allows Jammu and Kashmir to be the > only state in India to have a constitution of its own, something > that is the > right of every State in a federal structure like the US. Its > abrogation would > be regressive. But it should not be used to perpetuate the > dominance of a > ruling elite within J&K, as it has in the past. It must allow the > people of > the state as much, if not more freedom than guaranteed to the > people of India > by India’s constitution. > >   > > There is this greater talk about south > Asia as a reference point where borders can become irrelevant. Can’t > President Musharraf’s > ‘Joint management’ plan for Kashmir be the beginning of a post- > WestphalianSouth Asia? > > A > counter-question. Why should the people of Jammu and Kashmir > submit to > management by another or worse still by joint management of more > than one? Are > any of India’s > other States “managed” by the Centre? > >   > > You discount any link between Kashmiri > militants and Al Qaeda, yet in many official Indian accounts a > large stress is > placed on the claims of International jihadism including links > between the Al > Qaeda and Kashmiri insurgency. > > I > have seen no links, and I have seen the insurgency from close > quarters. >   > > How would you compare freedom of > information regime in south Asia? And could this be useful in ways > to promote > peace and cooperation in the region? > > India > in its Right to Information Act 2005 has among the world’s most > enlightenedlegislations of this nature. Certainly I have been > working with the Jammu and > Kashmir (J&K) State government to adopt this legislation for the > State, if > not taking advantage of Article 379 to have an even stronger law > of this > nature. The J&K law passed originally in 2004 is totally without >substance,and as a result has hardly been used at all. Bangladesh > has in May 2008 adopted > a Right to Information Ordnance based in great measure on India’s > legislation; > Nepal had done so earlier. Pakistan’s Freedom of Information > Ordnance 2002 > has > some weaknesses which will need strengthening. > >   > > How do you see the current situation > in Pakistan and the struggle for democracy? > > I > have never been to Pakistan, but I have always been an ardent > supporter of > democracy. Unfortunately, Pakistan like many Third World countries > has been > experimenting with short bouts of democracy alongside dictatorship. > Dictatorships succeed in the short term, but they bring ruin in > the long term > without much in the form of infrastructure that could effectively > govern a > modern state. > > The > current situation is Pakistan is interesting and I see it as first > falteringsteps to bring a democracy and I wish them well. But the > onus is on the newly > elected government to build credible institutions and > infrastructure to which > people can identify with and feel a part of. It is a difficult > road ahead, but > I strongly hope the democracy in Pakistan flourishes. > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Not happy with your email address?. > Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses > available now at > Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 13:10:17 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 00:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat Habibullah - MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 Message-ID: <985174.14425.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I agree with this solution but politicians of all these countries, to further their own interests,will see to it that merger does not take place at any cost.We,therefore, will have to take initiative separately or jump into politics now to solve this problem. Regards, Prabhakar Singh ----- Original Message ---- From: "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Tuesday, 22 July, 2008 12:22:14 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat Habibullah - MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 Only solution to Kashmir is mergers of Pakistan, Bangladesh along with Kashmir into secular India, which has been formed by merger of over 357 kingdoms of the yester years, in good governance make states out of these territories also with elections to throw up good leaders of each region, and in democracy, with just rule of laws, without fear or favour to any faith, caste. The national exchequer used only for good governance of all citizens without any discrimination of region, caste, faith and language. United India with all faiths is more a reality and solution to all misadventures of armies and fanatics of faiths.   Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008 4:29 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat Habibullah    - MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 To: reader-list at sarai.net, kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk > Murtaza Shibli asked Wajahat Habibullah about the possibilities > (with regard to Kashmir) of borders becoming irrelevant  and of > Joint Management (by India and Pakistan). WH dismissed the Joint > Management idea. >   > This reminded me of a conversation with Murtaza Shibli a few weeks > back (in another forum). The context (hopefully) will be clear in > the extracted portion of my mail. >   > QUOTE :""""""""""""""""" All of the above does not negate the fact > that there is a 'human' aspect of families who were cleaved apart > in 1947-48, whatever be their percentage.  Recognising this, I had > spoken about " other facilitations designed for such families > rather than a 'open border' system". You insist however that "The > free movement is definitely possible". I continue to disagree on that. >   > You say "There is a real need for open borders, as majority of > people in the border areas have suffered massively". I am not > arguing against the "need" but against the "possibility". >   > If there ever comes a time of 'open borders' between the SAARC > then 'Disputed Kashmir' automatically falls under it's umbrella. > Till then a "Kashmir" specific arrangement of "open borders" would > be nothing short of a fantasy: >   > -  How will the rest of India and the rest of Pakistan be > insulated from 'illegal ingress' of  "Pakistanis" and "Indians" > respectively?  > - Where would the Indian and Pakistani border controls start? >   > - Would there be Pakistani controls on India's border with > "Kashmir" and Indian controls on Pakistan's border with "Kashmir"? > How would that be different from " joint control? >   > I could go on, but the critical factor on which any arrangement > would hinge would be  what you yourself  called the "the mutual > biases or suspicions". >   > It would be naive of anyone to believe that those "mutual biases > and suspicions" will go away in any hurry. Impacting that is not > only the past history between the two countries but other much > more disturbing trends and threats too which I will not go into > for now. >   > That is why I spoke about " other facilitations designed for such > families rather than a 'open border' > system". """"""""""""""""""""""""" UNQUOTE >   > Kshmendra >    > > --- On Sun, 7/20/08, Kashmir Affairs wrote: > > From: Kashmir Affairs > Subject: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat > Habibullah - My Kashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; > USIP, 2008 > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 2:36 PM > > My Kashmir: Conflict and Prospects of > Enduring Peace > > By Wajahat Habibullah > > United States Institute of Peace, > Washington, 2008 > >   > > Murtaza Shibli > > [www.kashmiraffairs.org]  > > One of India’s finest and best known > Muslim civil servants, Wajahat Habibullah has remained associated > with Kashmir > through his appointments to various bureaucratic posts for nearly > threedecades. > This has given him a certain vantage point from which to watch the > socio-political developments as they unfolded. However, his > relationship is > formed not only from his professional involvement but also emerges > from a > personal commitment that is evident in his book. In Srinagar, he > is remembered > as a pro-Kashmiri Indian bureaucrat who believed in dialogue and > accommodation;in the tumultuous decade of the 1990s, he was > considered the only human face of > the Indian state, at a time when there was a total breakdown of > the social > contract and trust between the latter and the Kashmiri people. > Habibullahworked tirelessly, even risking his life, to repair and > restore some semblance > of engagement through his efforts at various levels. > >   > > My Kashmir: Conflict and the Prospects > of Enduring Peace > is a perceptive memoir peppered with anecdotes that offer personal > and mostly > honest insights into the tensions and distrust between Kashmir and > India that > marked the formative years of their relationship and how such > mutual suspicion > led to the emergence of one of the deadliest insurgencies in the > region that > still claims a heavy toll of lives. The book tries to offer a > sympathetic view > of the Kashmir problem – not from an academic angle or political > standpoint,but from a humanitarian perspective. The author draws > extensively from his > experiences of working both as an administrator under various > local Kashmiri > governments and in the offices of two Indian prime ministers. In his > introduction, Habibullah asserts that although not a Kashmiri > himself, he has > tried to see the situation through the eyes of one committed both > to India and > to serving the people of Kashmir.   > >   > > He points out that the government of > India’s constant fear that Kashmiris might gravitate towards > Pakistan has > meant > that ‘national security interests’ have taken precedence over > everythingelse, > including the rights of people. Giving examples from his personal > experience,he tells us how Indian paramilitary forces > ‘accosted…and humiliated > [Kashmiris] > as they returned home late from work’ [p.26] in early 1970 or how > a top > Border > Security Force (BSF) officer, Brigadier General Randhawa,  > threatened to > enter the homes of Kashmiris and ‘shoot anyone they suspected of > intendingmischief’. [p.25] This privileging of the ‘national > security interest’ > affected > the author as well as his civilian authority was often bypassed by > the Army and > police and on one occasion earned him a serious reprimand from the > ChiefSecretary, the senior-most bureaucrat in the state, for not > being quick enough > in issuing warrants for the arrest of the workers of an opposition > politicalparty. When in 1990, he requested the notoriously anti- > Muslim governor Jagmohan > to issue an appeal to Pandits (Kashmiri Hindus) not to leave the > Kashmir valley > and offer them protection, instead, Jagmohan did the opposite, thereby > triggering their exodus. It also prompted the widely held belief > that the > Pandit migration was initiated to clear the field for the Indian > Army and > paramilitary forces to target Kashmiri Muslims more freely and > without any > collateral damage to Hindu interests. > >   > > Habibullah offers several examples of > how the Indian government and its officials continue to see > Kashmir through the > prism solely of ‘national security’ concerns, enabling all manner of > malpractices that have further fuelled feelings of alienation > among Kashmiris. > He himself became a victim of the same mindset when Governor > Girish Saxena > selectively edited his report on the notorious Kunan Poshpora rape > of 1992 by > the Indian Army, giving a clean chit to the personnel involved. > This report > deeply angered Kashmiris and cost Habibullah his credibility among > them – so > much so that a militant group tried to assassinate him. > >   > > This security-related concern has fed > a distrust of Kashmiris in general and pervades the highest > levels; the prime > minister Indira Gandhi ‘not only rejected the proposal [to upgrade > Srinagarairport as an International one] outright but called in > her joint secretary, > who had recommended acceptance, to admonish him that an ulterior > motive must > always be suspected in any such proposal received from that > state’. [p55]. > This > deep distrust of Kashmiris was shared by the Indian prime minister > MorarjiDesai who stated during a meeting in Srinagar that “one > doesn’t know whom > to > trust in Kashmir”. On another occasion, when Indira Gandhi was > touring the > valley > during an election campaign in 1983, she said to Habibullah that > her public > gatherings ‘looked entirely fake’. The author’s own observation > about the > Indian Independence Day celebrations is that the Kashmiris never felt > enthusiastic and ‘not even the parade or loudly played national > anthem could > attract an audience’. [p.29] > >   > > He makes some insightful observations > about the characteristics of the Kashmiri people and calls their > dexterity in > weaving conspiracy theories legendary. However, his explanation of the > Hazratbal siege in 1993 is a no less skilful conspiracy theory > when he claims > that the police made false assumptions based on the word of a head > constablewho was a Jama’at-i-Islami sympathiser, thus effectively > placing the blame on > the Jama’at. He forgets, in the process, that according to the initial > intelligence reports quoted by the official media at the time, one > of the > reasons for the siege was the presence inside the shrine of Syed > Salahudin,chief of the Hizbul Mujahideen, and foreign militants, > which was eventually > proved wrong. If the police constable was a Jama’at sympathiser > who raised a > false alarm, his information should have been implausible given > the official > assessments about the presence of Syed Salahudin, himself a former > Jama’atactivist. > However, apart from this seemingly strange explanation for the > genesis of the > Hazratbal seige, Habibullah’s role in mitigating the crisis was > phenomenal as > he conducted negotiations with the holed-up militants at great > risk to his own > safety. His well known opposition to any hard-line military action > angered the > Indian army high command who allegedly tried to kill him when his > car was hit > by an army vehicle, severely injuring him. > >   > > The incident did not deter Habibullah > who continued his efforts to seek dialogue with the pro- > independence Kashmiri > separatists – both militants and the political leadership. He has held > various > meetings and discussions with these leaders over the past two > decades, opening > and sustaining various channels of communications. However, he is > too modest > and does not give himself enough credit, despite the fact that it > is his > efforts that have been central to keeping alive the dialogue > process between > the Indian government and Kashmiri separatists. His assessment of > Kashmiriseparatists > is that they lack leadership and vision and finds them devoid of > clarity of > thought or goal. He narrates an interesting anecdote about 1977 > state elections > as to how the Mirwaiz Moulvi Mohammad Farooq (father of current > Mirwaiz Umar > Farooq) tried to blackmail him by threatening to ‘set Srinagar on > fire’ if > Habibullah stopped him from taking a procession in support of the > Janata Party > headed by then Indian Prime Minister Morari Desai to which Mirwaiz > was aligned > at that time. He characterizes Sheikh Abdullah’s government a > ‘sheikhdom’and > observes that ‘in his last years in power, Abdullah was more > concerned with > securing an orderly succession than with running the government’. > He also > claims that a Western based JKLF leader came to meet him in 2004 > in Washington > and offered to work for the peace process. > >   > > The author contends that ‘Islam has > been pivotal to the evolving politics of Kashmir, but more as a > symbol of > people fighting for identity rather than its religious > ramifications’ and > discounts any relationship between the Kashmiri militant groups > and Al Qaeda as > ‘insinuations ostensibly made to curry US favor’. He questions > comparisonsbetween Kashmir and Northern Ireland adding that while > there was a demographic > change in Northern Ireland , there was no such thing in Kashmir – > an argument > hotly contested by Kashmiris. The systematic reduction of the > Muslim population > in Jammu and Kashmir since 1947, as evident from successive > official census > reports, is seen as a clear proof of demographic engineering, a > fact that was > raised by the Kashmiri leader Saifudin Soz, now the Indian > Minister of Water > Resources and head of the Congress party in Jammu and Kashmir. > Also, fears of > demographic change were the main reason for recent mass protests > in Srinagar > triggered > by the illegal land transfer by the local state government to a > semi-government > Hindu body, the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB). > >   > > Habibullah stresses the symbolic > importance of Kashmir to both India and Pakistan and calls for any > settlementto keep in mind the question of national pride in both > countries so that no > ‘substantial compromise on territory can or should be expected – > or even > hoped > for’. He accepts that freedom is the ‘dream of every Kashmiri’ but > tendsto > differentiate between freedom and independence, a term Kashmiris > usually use > interchangeably. He contends that the Indian constitution > guarantees that > freedom which ‘can be achieved while retaining the territorial > integrity of > both India and Pakistan with the present boundaries becoming soft > borders’,and > advocates against an independent Kashmir saying that ‘true freedom > cannot be > won by independence, which would bring even more suffering and > would be > unacceptable to both India and Pakistan’. His argument is that ‘an > independent > state of 5.44 million people occupying 85,00 mostly mountainous > square miles, > located in one of the world’s most volatile regions amid rival > nuclear powers > and a number of smaller states in conflict, with potential oil > wealth, is > hardly likely to be left free’.  > >   > > Wajahat Habibullah lives up to his > reputation of being sympathetic to Kashmiris as he repeatedly > refers to the > pain and agony they have suffered ‘as a result of confrontations > betweenIndia > and Pakistan during the intervening half century’. He laments > strongly the > oppressive treatment of Kashmiris by the Indian state at various > levels, a > treatment that could be easily classified as structural violence. > He observes > that personal relations between political leaders of India and Kashmir > ‘played > a marked role in the trajectory of Jammu and Kashmir’s history’ > effectivelysuggesting that they were overwhelmingly elite > arrangements that lacked popular > consent or appeal. He places the need for the restoration of > Kashmiri dignity > and self respect at the heart of his argument. Expressing sympathy > with the > Kashmiri perception of a long history of continuous humiliation > since accession > to India in 1947, he calls upon India to concede those rights and > libertiesthat are the entitlement of ‘every Indian citizen’ and > prophesies that > otherwise ‘simmering resentments in Kashmir will render any > abiding peace > elusive’. He is greatly perturbed about Kashmiris being held in > contempt by > both India and Pakistan as a people that can be ‘bought and sold’, and > argues > that such an attitude has added to the complexities in the > relationship between > India and Kashmir. > >   > > He describes the autonomy report > prepared by the Farooq Abdullah government in 2000 as flawed, but > calls its > rejection by the central Indian government as an opportunity > squandered. Habibullah constantly points out the confusions and > contradictions in New > Delhi’s Kashmir policy as a result of competing and confusing > views across > various government departments. In his view, the dialogue between > the Hurriyat > leaders and New Delhi’s interlocutor NN Vohra (currently the > governor of > Jammu > and Kashmir ) failed due to this sort of confusion, which eroded the > credibility of the then prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee among > the Hurriyat > leaders. He assesses the deep-rooted suspicion of Kashmiris as the > mainbottleneck for future negotiations and argues that the > credibility of Indian > institutions in Kashmir remains fragile. He calls for a ‘balance > betweenimmediate security concerns and long-term good will and > cooperation’, tacitly > admitting that the current peace process remains inconclusive due > to the slow > or absence of responses from the Indian side. He observes that the US > government also shares the view that Pakistan has been more > forthcoming with > compromises than India in the present peace process and quotes > Pakistan’sHigh > Commissioner in India, Ashraf Jehangir Qazi, who told him in early > 2002 that > ‘officially Pakistan was willing to compromise on the issue of > Jammu and > Kashmir ...however, a settlement along the LoC (Line of Control) > would be seen > by the Pakistani people as surrender unless the settlement was > accompanied by > some accommodation on India’s part”. > >   > > Despite its valuable insights and > richness in anecdotal detail, Habibullah’s claim that principal > reasons for > militant groups to find new recruits for insurgency are more > linked to economic > incentives of greed rather than the grievance, grossly > underestimates the > effects of massive human rights violations, humiliation felt by > Kashmiris on > multiple accounts including increasing marginalisation.  The > recently held > massive public protests in the streets of Srinagar that was > spearheaded and > sustained by the common people should be an eye opener about the > frustrationsand anger of the Kashmiri population. There are also > some glaring omissions in > the author’s references to certain historical events. While > discussing the > problem of communalism [p23] he briefly mentions that Muslims in Jammu > ‘migrated to Pakistan to avoid bloodbath’, conveniently forgetting > aboutthe > massacre precipitated by the Maharaja that killed thousands of > Muslims and > forced hundreds of thousands to migrate to Pakistan. Similarly in > the beginning > of the chapter two, he briefly mentions the attacks on Jamaa’t-i- > islamisupporters following the death of Zulfiqar Bhutto in 1979, > but omits the > details about widespread loot, plunder and arson that was > engineered with the > tacit support of the National Conference led government headed by > SheikhAbdullah. Several people were killed while hundreds were > rendered homeless, but > this does not find mention in the book.  Habibullah also tends to > read the > history of Partition one-sidedly and places the onus on Sir Syed > Ahmad Khan for > the ultimate division, but fails to recognise the role of Hindu > fundamentalists, or Gandhi’s responsibility in his choice of > leadership of > the > Congress, his distrust of Muslims as well as his invocation of > Hindu symbols > and mythology to cultivate mass political support.  And, lastly, > the time > line provided at the end of the book needs expanding to include > events like 11 > February 1984 – the hanging of Maqbool Bhat and other such > important events > that > have shaped the recent history of the beleaguered region.   > >   > > The merit of the book lies in the > clarity of its arguments and the modest approach of the author. My > Kashmir: Conflict and the Prospects of Enduring Peace is a wonderful > contributionto understanding Kashmir and the efforts at peace- > building there. > It is hoped that the USIP will further broaden its commendable > efforts to > promote the peace in the region by expanding its work and > resources, engaging > more scholars from the area, in order to help the ongoing peace > process and > offer specific insights into the problem that Wajahat Habibullah > stronglybelieves is ‘tractable’. > >   > > > Interview- Wajahat Habibullah > > Chief Information Commissioner, India > Murtaza > Shibli > >   > > There is a strong lament in your book > about the destruction of Kashmir. Yet you sound so hopeful of a > solution. Why? > > Because > there is a very strong yearning and will for peace and people want > to live with > dignity and peace. I think most of the people are sick of violence > and they > want to seek a solution through the constitutional and legal > mechanism. > > It > is now the duty of India, Pakistan and primarily the Kashmiri > leadership to > afford a sense of dignity and participation to the people of Jammu > and Kashmir > to ensure a long term solution. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s > idea of Round > Table Conference was part of extending that hope and translating > it into > action. > >   > > Whenever there is some hope of a > solution it is punctured by some untoward incidents. The recent > controversy of > land transfer to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB) is exactly > the kind of > setback that reverses such hopes. > > A. > The controversies like SASB  is a cause > for great pain and apprehension. It is a major setback which has > killed a part > of me. We can’t shut our eyes to issues like this. Unfortunately, > Governor SK > Sinha failed to gauge the aspirations of the Kashmiri people. He > equated the > problems with what he had seen in the rest of the country, but > Kashmir is > different. Thankfully, the new governor NN Vohra has a great > understanding of > Kashmir unlike his predecessors and hopefully this will prove > beneficial to the > people of Kashmir and rest of the country. > >   > > You mention about the Indian policy > being always guided by its perception of security and national > interest. And > now it seems to me that this ‘national interest’ is being extended to > religion > as well. Giving land to SASB is seen as a legitimate function and > role of the > Indian government for ensuring Indian presence in Kashmir. Is > religion now > being securitised? > > It > has been by some, but not by the government. As you know, the land > was never > actually transferred, and when government became aware of the public > resentment, the order was revoked. > >   > > Despite progress in the India-Pakistan > peace process, the Kashmiris are very sceptical of a solution > emerging. What do > you think is the reason? > > There > is frustration because the Kashmiris are feeling left out of the > peace building > process between India and Pakistan. Their skepticism can be > mitigated by their > being made part of the process. This can be achieved through > different means, > but basically it should flow from an effort to build trust. > >   > > There is a general belief that India’s > slow or non-response to President Musharraf’s proposals killed the > initialoptimism about the peace process and now the new political > challenges in both > countries have nearly stalled the process. > > The > General’s proposals were responded to in positive manner by no > less than the > Prime Minister of India. It is true however that there are those > within our > establishment that were averse to them. At any rate, it is my firm > belief that > democratic governments will be able to come to a more enduring > settlementacceptable to their people and therefore such solutions > will be stronger. > >   > > You make an observation in your book > about the Kashmiris’ penchant for cooking up conspiracy theories. > But your > explanation about the Hazratbal Siege, blaming a Jama’at-i-Islami > sympathiserpolice constable sounds like a conspiracy as well? > > Well, > that is my suspicion, based on having been hands on in the > negotiation. And the > constable was the one who had delivered the highly exaggerated > misinformationthat provoked the siege of the shrine. > >   > > You seem to discount the massive human > rights violations and its impact on fuelling insurgency and > winning new > recruits to it. Is there any particular reason you see the main > motivation for > insurgency as money rather than human rights violations and the > anger that it > generates? > > I > do not discount the cost in human rights, and have spoken of my direct > experience of such incidents. But I cannot claim to have covered those > incidents of which I had no direct experience. And I don’t see > money as the > reason at all. The outbreak was > precipitated by a genuine anger. That became a reason for its > persistence into > the mid ‘90s. After that however, money has begun to play an ever > largerrole. > I have known several young men who have or whose parents have > admitted to me as > much. And this very susceptibility to take to violence for money > does indeed > stem from anger > >   > > You mention that freedom is the choice > of every Kashmiri but then claim that this freedom is guaranteed > by the Indian > Constitution. How do you reconcile the two ideas? Surely the > majority of > Kashmiri separatists don’t want to operate within the ambit of the > IndianConstitution? > > Freedom > in my view is freedom-and freedom is guaranteed by India’s > Constitution. My > argument is that the Kashmiris be allowed to enjoy that freedom. > >   > > What is your position on Article 370 > and how do you see certain Indian political groups like BJP who > lobby for its > abrogation? > >  Article 370 allows Jammu and Kashmir to be the > only state in India to have a constitution of its own, something > that is the > right of every State in a federal structure like the US. Its > abrogation would > be regressive. But it should not be used to perpetuate the > dominance of a > ruling elite within J&K, as it has in the past. It must allow the > people of > the state as much, if not more freedom than guaranteed to the > people of India > by India’s constitution. > >   > > There is this greater talk about south > Asia as a reference point where borders can become irrelevant. Can’t > President Musharraf’s > ‘Joint management’ plan for Kashmir be the beginning of a post- > WestphalianSouth Asia? > > A > counter-question. Why should the people of Jammu and Kashmir > submit to > management by another or worse still by joint management of more > than one? Are > any of India’s > other States “managed” by the Centre? > >   > > You discount any link between Kashmiri > militants and Al Qaeda, yet in many official Indian accounts a > large stress is > placed on the claims of International jihadism including links > between the Al > Qaeda and Kashmiri insurgency. > > I > have seen no links, and I have seen the insurgency from close > quarters. >   > > How would you compare freedom of > information regime in south Asia? And could this be useful in ways > to promote > peace and cooperation in the region? > > India > in its Right to Information Act 2005 has among the world’s most > enlightenedlegislations of this nature. Certainly I have been > working with the Jammu and > Kashmir (J&K) State government to adopt this legislation for the > State, if > not taking advantage of Article 379 to have an even stronger law > of this > nature. The J&K law passed originally in 2004 is totally without >substance,and as a result has hardly been used at all. Bangladesh > has in May 2008 adopted > a Right to Information Ordnance based in great measure on India’s > legislation; > Nepal had done so earlier. Pakistan’s Freedom of Information > Ordnance 2002 > has > some weaknesses which will need strengthening. > >   > > How do you see the current situation > in Pakistan and the struggle for democracy? > > I > have never been to Pakistan, but I have always been an ardent > supporter of > democracy. Unfortunately, Pakistan like many Third World countries > has been > experimenting with short bouts of democracy alongside dictatorship. > Dictatorships succeed in the short term, but they bring ruin in > the long term > without much in the form of infrastructure that could effectively > govern a > modern state. > > The > current situation is Pakistan is interesting and I see it as first > falteringsteps to bring a democracy and I wish them well. But the > onus is on the newly > elected government to build credible institutions and > infrastructure to which > people can identify with and feel a part of. It is a difficult > road ahead, but > I strongly hope the democracy in Pakistan flourishes. > > > > >      __________________________________________________________ > Not happy with your email address?. > Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses > available now at > Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: > > >  > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ From mailponni at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 13:15:40 2008 From: mailponni at gmail.com (ponni arasu) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:15:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Brutal murder of A.Babu, NAPM Convenor near Ramanagaram, Karnataka Message-ID: <20d6b7240807220045h7718ac0ai12ed148dff62520@mail.gmail.com> Hey all, Just got news that *NAPM Karnataka Convenor A.T. Babu* has been killed. Mr Babu was on his way to attend a NAPM organised meeting of the anti- liquor campaign at Ramnagaram, along with Sr. Celia and couple of other colleagues when a group of people stopped the vehicle at Mayanagram (some kms before the meeting venue) and attacked him with knives and swords. He was killed on the spot, in front of Sr. Celia and Rukmini. It is believed that the strong liquor mafia in Karnataka is behind this gruesome murder. Details of the incident are still coming in. Sr. Celia told us that the car they were driving in was stopped by four men on motorcycles on the pretext of them not driving properly. Mr. Babu who was driving the car stopped. At that moment another big car stopped behind from which 8-10 men armed with choppers, knives, swords, etc. alighted and came running towards Mr. Babu and lynched him to death. This happened at around 11.30 this morning (21.07.08). Sr. Celia, in front of whom this gruesome murder took place has filed a complaint with the police. When we last spoke to her this afternoon, she said that Mr. Babu's body was being brought to the Government Hospital in Ramanagaram for post mortem, but the police were waiting for his family members to arrive before this is done. Selva, Murthy, Mahesh and others from Bangalore have rushed to Ramanagaram and are with Sr. Celia now, along with other friends and activists from Ramanagaram. Mr. Babu was among the most active comrades who emerged within the leadership of NAPM and was made a convener of the state unit recently. We call upon all sections of the people to condemn murder of Babu and demand immediate action by the state government... Clifton From kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 22 14:01:58 2008 From: kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk (Kashmir Affairs) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:31:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat Habibullah - MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 In-Reply-To: <985174.14425.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <794694.18503.qm@web27802.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> I agree too. But in my view the onus is on India. And Kashmir could demystify the borders of nation states that were created in 1947. There is merit in 'Joint Control' - This will allow India and Pakistan to merge their identities in Kashmir - a place that has become cause and symbol of fighting both for land as well as their respective identities. Joint Control will neutralise both - the puritans of Pakistan who believe in Muslim identity and the Hindutva forces - both feed on each other. Kashmir could alter political landscape between india and pakistan. As far as Bangladesh is concerned - I feel that migration of Bengalis to India attests that they can't live without India and hence a future within India might be something to explore. Again, India being bigger and 'mother country', it could set the process in motion. Bengalis should be allowed to migrate into mainland India and slowly it should be integrated into India. That could perhaps reassure Pakistanis of their safety if they join back to India following Joint Control on Kashmir and Bangladeshi example.   Murtaza   ----- Murtaza Shibli www.kashmiraffairs.org --- On Tue, 22/7/08, Prabhakar Singh wrote: From: Prabhakar Singh Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat Habibullah - MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Tuesday, 22 July, 2008, 8:40 AM I agree with this solution but politicians of all these countries, to further their own interests,will see to it that merger does not take place at any cost.We,therefore, will have to take initiative separately or jump into politics now to solve this problem. Regards, Prabhakar Singh ----- Original Message ---- From: "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Tuesday, 22 July, 2008 12:22:14 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat Habibullah - MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 Only solution to Kashmir is mergers of Pakistan, Bangladesh along with Kashmir into secular India, which has been formed by merger of over 357 kingdoms of the yester years, in good governance make states out of these territories also with elections to throw up good leaders of each region, and in democracy, with just rule of laws, without fear or favour to any faith, caste. The national exchequer used only for good governance of all citizens without any discrimination of region, caste, faith and language. United India with all faiths is more a reality and solution to all misadventures of armies and fanatics of faiths.   Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008 4:29 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat Habibullah    - MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 To: reader-list at sarai.net, kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk > Murtaza Shibli asked Wajahat Habibullah about the possibilities > (with regard to Kashmir) of borders becoming irrelevant  and of > Joint Management (by India and Pakistan). WH dismissed the Joint > Management idea. >   > This reminded me of a conversation with Murtaza Shibli a few weeks > back (in another forum). The context (hopefully) will be clear in > the extracted portion of my mail. >   > QUOTE :""""""""""""""""" All of the above does not negate the fact > that there is a 'human' aspect of families who were cleaved apart > in 1947-48, whatever be their percentage.  Recognising this, I had > spoken about " other facilitations designed for such families > rather than a 'open border' system". You insist however that "The > free movement is definitely possible". I continue to disagree on that. >   > You say "There is a real need for open borders, as majority of > people in the border areas have suffered massively". I am not > arguing against the "need" but against the "possibility". >   > If there ever comes a time of 'open borders' between the SAARC > then 'Disputed Kashmir' automatically falls under it's umbrella. > Till then a "Kashmir" specific arrangement of "open borders" would > be nothing short of a fantasy: >   > -  How will the rest of India and the rest of Pakistan be > insulated from 'illegal ingress' of  "Pakistanis" and "Indians" > respectively?  > - Where would the Indian and Pakistani border controls start? >   > - Would there be Pakistani controls on India's border with > "Kashmir" and Indian controls on Pakistan's border with "Kashmir"? > How would that be different from " joint control? >   > I could go on, but the critical factor on which any arrangement > would hinge would be  what you yourself  called the "the mutual > biases or suspicions". >   > It would be naive of anyone to believe that those "mutual biases > and suspicions" will go away in any hurry. Impacting that is not > only the past history between the two countries but other much > more disturbing trends and threats too which I will not go into > for now. >   > That is why I spoke about " other facilitations designed for such > families rather than a 'open border' > system". """"""""""""""""""""""""" UNQUOTE >   > Kshmendra >    > > --- On Sun, 7/20/08, Kashmir Affairs wrote: > > From: Kashmir Affairs > Subject: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat > Habibullah - My Kashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; > USIP, 2008 > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 2:36 PM > > My Kashmir: Conflict and Prospects of > Enduring Peace > > By Wajahat Habibullah > > United States Institute of Peace, > Washington, 2008 > >   > > Murtaza Shibli > > [www.kashmiraffairs.org]  > > One of India’s finest and best known > Muslim civil servants, Wajahat Habibullah has remained associated > with Kashmir > through his appointments to various bureaucratic posts for nearly > threedecades. > This has given him a certain vantage point from which to watch the > socio-political developments as they unfolded. However, his > relationship is > formed not only from his professional involvement but also emerges > from a > personal commitment that is evident in his book. In Srinagar, he > is remembered > as a pro-Kashmiri Indian bureaucrat who believed in dialogue and > accommodation;in the tumultuous decade of the 1990s, he was > considered the only human face of > the Indian state, at a time when there was a total breakdown of > the social > contract and trust between the latter and the Kashmiri people. > Habibullahworked tirelessly, even risking his life, to repair and > restore some semblance > of engagement through his efforts at various levels. > >   > > My Kashmir: Conflict and the Prospects > of Enduring Peace > is a perceptive memoir peppered with anecdotes that offer personal > and mostly > honest insights into the tensions and distrust between Kashmir and > India that > marked the formative years of their relationship and how such > mutual suspicion > led to the emergence of one of the deadliest insurgencies in the > region that > still claims a heavy toll of lives. The book tries to offer a > sympathetic view > of the Kashmir problem – not from an academic angle or political > standpoint,but from a humanitarian perspective. The author draws > extensively from his > experiences of working both as an administrator under various > local Kashmiri > governments and in the offices of two Indian prime ministers. In his > introduction, Habibullah asserts that although not a Kashmiri > himself, he has > tried to see the situation through the eyes of one committed both > to India and > to serving the people of Kashmir.   > >   > > He points out that the government of > India’s constant fear that Kashmiris might gravitate towards > Pakistan has > meant > that ‘national security interests’ have taken precedence over > everythingelse, > including the rights of people. Giving examples from his personal > experience,he tells us how Indian paramilitary forces > ‘accosted…and humiliated > [Kashmiris] > as they returned home late from work’ [p.26] in early 1970 or how > a top > Border > Security Force (BSF) officer, Brigadier General Randhawa,  > threatened to > enter the homes of Kashmiris and ‘shoot anyone they suspected of > intendingmischief’. [p.25] This privileging of the ‘national > security interest’ > affected > the author as well as his civilian authority was often bypassed by > the Army and > police and on one occasion earned him a serious reprimand from the > ChiefSecretary, the senior-most bureaucrat in the state, for not > being quick enough > in issuing warrants for the arrest of the workers of an opposition > politicalparty. When in 1990, he requested the notoriously anti- > Muslim governor Jagmohan > to issue an appeal to Pandits (Kashmiri Hindus) not to leave the > Kashmir valley > and offer them protection, instead, Jagmohan did the opposite, thereby > triggering their exodus. It also prompted the widely held belief > that the > Pandit migration was initiated to clear the field for the Indian > Army and > paramilitary forces to target Kashmiri Muslims more freely and > without any > collateral damage to Hindu interests. > >   > > Habibullah offers several examples of > how the Indian government and its officials continue to see > Kashmir through the > prism solely of ‘national security’ concerns, enabling all manner of > malpractices that have further fuelled feelings of alienation > among Kashmiris. > He himself became a victim of the same mindset when Governor > Girish Saxena > selectively edited his report on the notorious Kunan Poshpora rape > of 1992 by > the Indian Army, giving a clean chit to the personnel involved. > This report > deeply angered Kashmiris and cost Habibullah his credibility among > them – so > much so that a militant group tried to assassinate him. > >   > > This security-related concern has fed > a distrust of Kashmiris in general and pervades the highest > levels; the prime > minister Indira Gandhi ‘not only rejected the proposal [to upgrade > Srinagarairport as an International one] outright but called in > her joint secretary, > who had recommended acceptance, to admonish him that an ulterior > motive must > always be suspected in any such proposal received from that > state’. [p55]. > This > deep distrust of Kashmiris was shared by the Indian prime minister > MorarjiDesai who stated during a meeting in Srinagar that “one > doesn’t know whom > to > trust in Kashmir”. On another occasion, when Indira Gandhi was > touring the > valley > during an election campaign in 1983, she said to Habibullah that > her public > gatherings ‘looked entirely fake’. The author’s own observation > about the > Indian Independence Day celebrations is that the Kashmiris never felt > enthusiastic and ‘not even the parade or loudly played national > anthem could > attract an audience’. [p.29] > >   > > He makes some insightful observations > about the characteristics of the Kashmiri people and calls their > dexterity in > weaving conspiracy theories legendary. However, his explanation of the > Hazratbal siege in 1993 is a no less skilful conspiracy theory > when he claims > that the police made false assumptions based on the word of a head > constablewho was a Jama’at-i-Islami sympathiser, thus effectively > placing the blame on > the Jama’at. He forgets, in the process, that according to the initial > intelligence reports quoted by the official media at the time, one > of the > reasons for the siege was the presence inside the shrine of Syed > Salahudin,chief of the Hizbul Mujahideen, and foreign militants, > which was eventually > proved wrong. If the police constable was a Jama’at sympathiser > who raised a > false alarm, his information should have been implausible given > the official > assessments about the presence of Syed Salahudin, himself a former > Jama’atactivist. > However, apart from this seemingly strange explanation for the > genesis of the > Hazratbal seige, Habibullah’s role in mitigating the crisis was > phenomenal as > he conducted negotiations with the holed-up militants at great > risk to his own > safety. His well known opposition to any hard-line military action > angered the > Indian army high command who allegedly tried to kill him when his > car was hit > by an army vehicle, severely injuring him. > >   > > The incident did not deter Habibullah > who continued his efforts to seek dialogue with the pro- > independence Kashmiri > separatists – both militants and the political leadership. He has held > various > meetings and discussions with these leaders over the past two > decades, opening > and sustaining various channels of communications. However, he is > too modest > and does not give himself enough credit, despite the fact that it > is his > efforts that have been central to keeping alive the dialogue > process between > the Indian government and Kashmiri separatists. His assessment of > Kashmiriseparatists > is that they lack leadership and vision and finds them devoid of > clarity of > thought or goal. He narrates an interesting anecdote about 1977 > state elections > as to how the Mirwaiz Moulvi Mohammad Farooq (father of current > Mirwaiz Umar > Farooq) tried to blackmail him by threatening to ‘set Srinagar on > fire’ if > Habibullah stopped him from taking a procession in support of the > Janata Party > headed by then Indian Prime Minister Morari Desai to which Mirwaiz > was aligned > at that time. He characterizes Sheikh Abdullah’s government a > ‘sheikhdom’and > observes that ‘in his last years in power, Abdullah was more > concerned with > securing an orderly succession than with running the government’. > He also > claims that a Western based JKLF leader came to meet him in 2004 > in Washington > and offered to work for the peace process. > >   > > The author contends that ‘Islam has > been pivotal to the evolving politics of Kashmir, but more as a > symbol of > people fighting for identity rather than its religious > ramifications’ and > discounts any relationship between the Kashmiri militant groups > and Al Qaeda as > ‘insinuations ostensibly made to curry US favor’. He questions > comparisonsbetween Kashmir and Northern Ireland adding that while > there was a demographic > change in Northern Ireland , there was no such thing in Kashmir – > an argument > hotly contested by Kashmiris. The systematic reduction of the > Muslim population > in Jammu and Kashmir since 1947, as evident from successive > official census > reports, is seen as a clear proof of demographic engineering, a > fact that was > raised by the Kashmiri leader Saifudin Soz, now the Indian > Minister of Water > Resources and head of the Congress party in Jammu and Kashmir. > Also, fears of > demographic change were the main reason for recent mass protests > in Srinagar > triggered > by the illegal land transfer by the local state government to a > semi-government > Hindu body, the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB). > >   > > Habibullah stresses the symbolic > importance of Kashmir to both India and Pakistan and calls for any > settlementto keep in mind the question of national pride in both > countries so that no > ‘substantial compromise on territory can or should be expected – > or even > hoped > for’. He accepts that freedom is the ‘dream of every Kashmiri’ but > tendsto > differentiate between freedom and independence, a term Kashmiris > usually use > interchangeably. He contends that the Indian constitution > guarantees that > freedom which ‘can be achieved while retaining the territorial > integrity of > both India and Pakistan with the present boundaries becoming soft > borders’,and > advocates against an independent Kashmir saying that ‘true freedom > cannot be > won by independence, which would bring even more suffering and > would be > unacceptable to both India and Pakistan’. His argument is that ‘an > independent > state of 5.44 million people occupying 85,00 mostly mountainous > square miles, > located in one of the world’s most volatile regions amid rival > nuclear powers > and a number of smaller states in conflict, with potential oil > wealth, is > hardly likely to be left free’.  > >   > > Wajahat Habibullah lives up to his > reputation of being sympathetic to Kashmiris as he repeatedly > refers to the > pain and agony they have suffered ‘as a result of confrontations > betweenIndia > and Pakistan during the intervening half century’. He laments > strongly the > oppressive treatment of Kashmiris by the Indian state at various > levels, a > treatment that could be easily classified as structural violence. > He observes > that personal relations between political leaders of India and Kashmir > ‘played > a marked role in the trajectory of Jammu and Kashmir’s history’ > effectivelysuggesting that they were overwhelmingly elite > arrangements that lacked popular > consent or appeal. He places the need for the restoration of > Kashmiri dignity > and self respect at the heart of his argument. Expressing sympathy > with the > Kashmiri perception of a long history of continuous humiliation > since accession > to India in 1947, he calls upon India to concede those rights and > libertiesthat are the entitlement of ‘every Indian citizen’ and > prophesies that > otherwise ‘simmering resentments in Kashmir will render any > abiding peace > elusive’. He is greatly perturbed about Kashmiris being held in > contempt by > both India and Pakistan as a people that can be ‘bought and sold’, and > argues > that such an attitude has added to the complexities in the > relationship between > India and Kashmir. > >   > > He describes the autonomy report > prepared by the Farooq Abdullah government in 2000 as flawed, but > calls its > rejection by the central Indian government as an opportunity > squandered. Habibullah constantly points out the confusions and > contradictions in New > Delhi’s Kashmir policy as a result of competing and confusing > views across > various government departments. In his view, the dialogue between > the Hurriyat > leaders and New Delhi’s interlocutor NN Vohra (currently the > governor of > Jammu > and Kashmir ) failed due to this sort of confusion, which eroded the > credibility of the then prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee among > the Hurriyat > leaders. He assesses the deep-rooted suspicion of Kashmiris as the > mainbottleneck for future negotiations and argues that the > credibility of Indian > institutions in Kashmir remains fragile. He calls for a ‘balance > betweenimmediate security concerns and long-term good will and > cooperation’, tacitly > admitting that the current peace process remains inconclusive due > to the slow > or absence of responses from the Indian side. He observes that the US > government also shares the view that Pakistan has been more > forthcoming with > compromises than India in the present peace process and quotes > Pakistan’sHigh > Commissioner in India, Ashraf Jehangir Qazi, who told him in early > 2002 that > ‘officially Pakistan was willing to compromise on the issue of > Jammu and > Kashmir ...however, a settlement along the LoC (Line of Control) > would be seen > by the Pakistani people as surrender unless the settlement was > accompanied by > some accommodation on India’s part”. > >   > > Despite its valuable insights and > richness in anecdotal detail, Habibullah’s claim that principal > reasons for > militant groups to find new recruits for insurgency are more > linked to economic > incentives of greed rather than the grievance, grossly > underestimates the > effects of massive human rights violations, humiliation felt by > Kashmiris on > multiple accounts including increasing marginalisation.  The > recently held > massive public protests in the streets of Srinagar that was > spearheaded and > sustained by the common people should be an eye opener about the > frustrationsand anger of the Kashmiri population. There are also > some glaring omissions in > the author’s references to certain historical events. While > discussing the > problem of communalism [p23] he briefly mentions that Muslims in Jammu > ‘migrated to Pakistan to avoid bloodbath’, conveniently forgetting > aboutthe > massacre precipitated by the Maharaja that killed thousands of > Muslims and > forced hundreds of thousands to migrate to Pakistan. Similarly in > the beginning > of the chapter two, he briefly mentions the attacks on Jamaa’t-i- > islamisupporters following the death of Zulfiqar Bhutto in 1979, > but omits the > details about widespread loot, plunder and arson that was > engineered with the > tacit support of the National Conference led government headed by > SheikhAbdullah. Several people were killed while hundreds were > rendered homeless, but > this does not find mention in the book.  Habibullah also tends to > read the > history of Partition one-sidedly and places the onus on Sir Syed > Ahmad Khan for > the ultimate division, but fails to recognise the role of Hindu > fundamentalists, or Gandhi’s responsibility in his choice of > leadership of > the > Congress, his distrust of Muslims as well as his invocation of > Hindu symbols > and mythology to cultivate mass political support.  And, lastly, > the time > line provided at the end of the book needs expanding to include > events like 11 > February 1984 – the hanging of Maqbool Bhat and other such > important events > that > have shaped the recent history of the beleaguered region.   > >   > > The merit of the book lies in the > clarity of its arguments and the modest approach of the author. My > Kashmir: Conflict and the Prospects of Enduring Peace is a wonderful > contributionto understanding Kashmir and the efforts at peace- > building there. > It is hoped that the USIP will further broaden its commendable > efforts to > promote the peace in the region by expanding its work and > resources, engaging > more scholars from the area, in order to help the ongoing peace > process and > offer specific insights into the problem that Wajahat Habibullah > stronglybelieves is ‘tractable’. > >   > > > Interview- Wajahat Habibullah > > Chief Information Commissioner, India > Murtaza > Shibli > >   > > There is a strong lament in your book > about the destruction of Kashmir. Yet you sound so hopeful of a > solution. Why? > > Because > there is a very strong yearning and will for peace and people want > to live with > dignity and peace. I think most of the people are sick of violence > and they > want to seek a solution through the constitutional and legal > mechanism. > > It > is now the duty of India, Pakistan and primarily the Kashmiri > leadership to > afford a sense of dignity and participation to the people of Jammu > and Kashmir > to ensure a long term solution. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s > idea of Round > Table Conference was part of extending that hope and translating > it into > action. > >   > > Whenever there is some hope of a > solution it is punctured by some untoward incidents. The recent > controversy of > land transfer to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB) is exactly > the kind of > setback that reverses such hopes. > > A. > The controversies like SASB  is a cause > for great pain and apprehension. It is a major setback which has > killed a part > of me. We can’t shut our eyes to issues like this. Unfortunately, > Governor SK > Sinha failed to gauge the aspirations of the Kashmiri people. He > equated the > problems with what he had seen in the rest of the country, but > Kashmir is > different. Thankfully, the new governor NN Vohra has a great > understanding of > Kashmir unlike his predecessors and hopefully this will prove > beneficial to the > people of Kashmir and rest of the country. > >   > > You mention about the Indian policy > being always guided by its perception of security and national > interest. And > now it seems to me that this ‘national interest’ is being extended to > religion > as well. Giving land to SASB is seen as a legitimate function and > role of the > Indian government for ensuring Indian presence in Kashmir. Is > religion now > being securitised? > > It > has been by some, but not by the government. As you know, the land > was never > actually transferred, and when government became aware of the public > resentment, the order was revoked. > >   > > Despite progress in the India-Pakistan > peace process, the Kashmiris are very sceptical of a solution > emerging. What do > you think is the reason? > > There > is frustration because the Kashmiris are feeling left out of the > peace building > process between India and Pakistan. Their skepticism can be > mitigated by their > being made part of the process. This can be achieved through > different means, > but basically it should flow from an effort to build trust. > >   > > There is a general belief that India’s > slow or non-response to President Musharraf’s proposals killed the > initialoptimism about the peace process and now the new political > challenges in both > countries have nearly stalled the process. > > The > General’s proposals were responded to in positive manner by no > less than the > Prime Minister of India. It is true however that there are those > within our > establishment that were averse to them. At any rate, it is my firm > belief that > democratic governments will be able to come to a more enduring > settlementacceptable to their people and therefore such solutions > will be stronger. > >   > > You make an observation in your book > about the Kashmiris’ penchant for cooking up conspiracy theories. > But your > explanation about the Hazratbal Siege, blaming a Jama’at-i-Islami > sympathiserpolice constable sounds like a conspiracy as well? > > Well, > that is my suspicion, based on having been hands on in the > negotiation. And the > constable was the one who had delivered the highly exaggerated > misinformationthat provoked the siege of the shrine. > >   > > You seem to discount the massive human > rights violations and its impact on fuelling insurgency and > winning new > recruits to it. Is there any particular reason you see the main > motivation for > insurgency as money rather than human rights violations and the > anger that it > generates? > > I > do not discount the cost in human rights, and have spoken of my direct > experience of such incidents. But I cannot claim to have covered those > incidents of which I had no direct experience. And I don’t see > money as the > reason at all. The outbreak was > precipitated by a genuine anger. That became a reason for its > persistence into > the mid ‘90s. After that however, money has begun to play an ever > largerrole. > I have known several young men who have or whose parents have > admitted to me as > much. And this very susceptibility to take to violence for money > does indeed > stem from anger > >   > > You mention that freedom is the choice > of every Kashmiri but then claim that this freedom is guaranteed > by the Indian > Constitution. How do you reconcile the two ideas? Surely the > majority of > Kashmiri separatists don’t want to operate within the ambit of the > IndianConstitution? > > Freedom > in my view is freedom-and freedom is guaranteed by India’s > Constitution. My > argument is that the Kashmiris be allowed to enjoy that freedom. > >   > > What is your position on Article 370 > and how do you see certain Indian political groups like BJP who > lobby for its > abrogation? > >  Article 370 allows Jammu and Kashmir to be the > only state in India to have a constitution of its own, something > that is the > right of every State in a federal structure like the US. Its > abrogation would > be regressive. But it should not be used to perpetuate the > dominance of a > ruling elite within J&K, as it has in the past. It must allow the > people of > the state as much, if not more freedom than guaranteed to the > people of India > by India’s constitution. > >   > > There is this greater talk about south > Asia as a reference point where borders can become irrelevant. Can’t > President Musharraf’s > ‘Joint management’ plan for Kashmir be the beginning of a post- > WestphalianSouth Asia? > > A > counter-question. Why should the people of Jammu and Kashmir > submit to > management by another or worse still by joint management of more > than one? Are > any of India’s > other States “managed” by the Centre? > >   > > You discount any link between Kashmiri > militants and Al Qaeda, yet in many official Indian accounts a > large stress is > placed on the claims of International jihadism including links > between the Al > Qaeda and Kashmiri insurgency. > > I > have seen no links, and I have seen the insurgency from close > quarters. >   > > How would you compare freedom of > information regime in south Asia? And could this be useful in ways > to promote > peace and cooperation in the region? > > India > in its Right to Information Act 2005 has among the world’s most > enlightenedlegislations of this nature. Certainly I have been > working with the Jammu and > Kashmir (J&K) State government to adopt this legislation for the > State, if > not taking advantage of Article 379 to have an even stronger law > of this > nature. The J&K law passed originally in 2004 is totally without >substance,and as a result has hardly been used at all. Bangladesh > has in May 2008 adopted > a Right to Information Ordnance based in great measure on India’s > legislation; > Nepal had done so earlier. Pakistan’s Freedom of Information > Ordnance 2002 > has > some weaknesses which will need strengthening. > >   > > How do you see the current situation > in Pakistan and the struggle for democracy? > > I > have never been to Pakistan, but I have always been an ardent > supporter of > democracy. Unfortunately, Pakistan like many Third World countries > has been > experimenting with short bouts of democracy alongside dictatorship. > Dictatorships succeed in the short term, but they bring ruin in > the long term > without much in the form of infrastructure that could effectively > govern a > modern state. > > The > current situation is Pakistan is interesting and I see it as first > falteringsteps to bring a democracy and I wish them well. But the > onus is on the newly > elected government to build credible institutions and > infrastructure to which > people can identify with and feel a part of. It is a difficult > road ahead, but > I strongly hope the democracy in Pakistan flourishes. > > > > >      __________________________________________________________ > Not happy with your email address?. > Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses > available now at > Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: > > >  > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> __________________________________________________________ Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Tue Jul 22 16:56:02 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:26:02 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat Habibullah -MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 In-Reply-To: <794694.18503.qm@web27802.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <985174.14425.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <794694.18503.qm@web27802.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Onus is on all of us, to make this reality, as free India is secular country where all religions and faiths are co-habiting and but for occassional games of fanacism to gain votes, the oldest party which taught the game of vote bank appeasements for castes, faiths and regions, let us stop at the vistims of blame game, as all of us equally responsible for responding to this blame game, we shall take responsiblity to unite as united India, where all faiths are respected, all citizens are governed well without discrepencies and discrimination based on caste, faith region and language, all are equal in just rule of laws in democratic life. Once we accept this then all will be clear in their life as citizens in united India, none favoured for faith, caste and region. Pakistan being an islamic state has failed state in governance with zero tolerence for any good governance, India in its present form of governance has bad and lopsided governance because of vote bank politics, once th e entire cotozens are under one rule of laws as democratic nation, each group of citizens will respect the integrity of their federal structure and good leaders will emerge out of this democratic life, to give good rule of laws, without fear or favour to any set of sections of society, based on caste, faith and region as entire resources are of this entity, united India, the leaders with vision need not cater to sections of the citizens, but to all citizens as otherwise the responsible citizens would throw them out of power equations for bad governance as is happening now for the oldest party. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kashmir Affairs Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 2:02 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat Habibullah -MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 To: reader-list at sarai.net > I agree too. But in my view the onus is on India. And Kashmir > could demystify the borders of nation states that were created in > 1947. > There is merit in 'Joint Control' - This will allow India and > Pakistan to merge their identities in Kashmir - a place that has > become cause and symbol of fighting both for land as well as their > respective identities. Joint Control will neutralise both - the > puritans of Pakistan who believe in Muslim identity and the > Hindutva forces - both feed on each other. Kashmir could alter > political landscape between india and pakistan. > As far as Bangladesh is concerned - I feel that migration of > Bengalis to India attests that they can't live without India and > hence a future within India might be something to explore. Again, > India being bigger and 'mother country', it could set the process > in motion. Bengalis should be allowed to migrate into mainland > India and slowly it should be integrated into India. That could > perhaps reassure Pakistanis of their safety if they join back to > India following Joint Control on Kashmir and Bangladeshi example. >   > Murtaza >   > ----- > Murtaza Shibli > www.kashmiraffairs.org > > --- On Tue, 22/7/08, Prabhakar Singh wrote: > > From: Prabhakar Singh > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat > Habibullah - MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; > USIP, 2008 > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Tuesday, 22 July, 2008, 8:40 AM > > I agree with this solution but politicians of all these countries, > to further > their own interests,will see to it that merger does not take place > at any > cost.We,therefore, will have to take initiative separately or jump > intopolitics now to solve this problem. > Regards, > Prabhakar Singh > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Tuesday, 22 July, 2008 12:22:14 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat > Habibullah - > MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 > > Only solution to Kashmir is mergers of Pakistan, Bangladesh along > with Kashmir > into secular India, which has been formed by merger of over 357 > kingdoms of the > yester years, in good governance make states out of these > territories also with > elections to throw up good leaders of each region, and in > democracy, with just > rule of laws, without fear or favour to any faith, caste. The national > exchequer used only for good governance of all citizens without any > discrimination of region, caste, faith and language. United India > with all > faiths is more a reality and solution to all misadventures of > armies and > fanatics of faiths. > >   Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008 4:29 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat > Habibullah   - MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring > Peace; USIP, 2008 > To: reader-list at sarai.net, kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk > > > Murtaza Shibli asked Wajahat Habibullah about the possibilities > > (with regard to Kashmir) of borders becoming irrelevant  and of > > Joint Management (by India and Pakistan). WH dismissed the Joint > > Management idea. > >   > > This reminded me of a conversation with Murtaza Shibli a few > weeks > > back (in another forum). The context (hopefully) will be clear > in > > the extracted portion of my mail. > >   > > QUOTE > :""""""""""""""""" > All of the above does not negate the fact > > that there is a 'human' aspect of families who were cleaved > apart > > in 1947-48, whatever be their percentage.  Recognising this, I > had > > spoken about " other facilitations designed for such families > > rather than a 'open border' system". You insist however that > "The > > free movement is definitely possible". I continue to disagree on > that. > >   > > You say "There is a real need for open borders, as majority of > > people in the border areas have suffered massively". I am not > > arguing against the "need" but against the > "possibility". > >   > > If there ever comes a time of 'open borders' between the SAARC > > then 'Disputed Kashmir' automatically falls under it's > umbrella. > > Till then a "Kashmir" specific arrangement of "open > borders" would > > be nothing short of a fantasy: > >   > > -  How will the rest of India and the rest of Pakistan be > > insulated from 'illegal ingress' of  "Pakistanis" and > "Indians" > > respectively?  > > - Where would the Indian and Pakistani border controls start? > >   > > - Would there be Pakistani controls on India's border with > > "Kashmir" and Indian controls on Pakistan's border with > "Kashmir"? > > How would that be different from " joint control? > >   > > I could go on, but the critical factor on which any arrangement > > would hinge would be  what you yourself  called the "the mutual > > biases or suspicions". > >   > > It would be naive of anyone to believe that those "mutual biases > > and suspicions" will go away in any hurry. Impacting that is not > > only the past history between the two countries but other much > > more disturbing trends and threats too which I will not go into > > for now. > >   > > That is why I spoke about " other facilitations designed for > such > > families rather than a 'open border' > > > system". """"""""""""""""""""""""" > UNQUOTE > >   > > Kshmendra > >    > > > > --- On Sun, 7/20/08, Kashmir Affairs > wrote: > > > > From: Kashmir Affairs > > Subject: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat > > Habibullah - My Kashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring > Peace; > > USIP, 2008 > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 2:36 PM > > > > My Kashmir: Conflict and Prospects of > > Enduring Peace > > > > By Wajahat Habibullah > > > > United States Institute of Peace, > > Washington, 2008 > > > >   > > > > Murtaza Shibli > > > > [www.kashmiraffairs.org]  > > > > One of India’s finest and best known > > Muslim civil servants, Wajahat Habibullah has remained > associated > > with Kashmir > > through his appointments to various bureaucratic posts for > nearly > > threedecades. > > This has given him a certain vantage point from which to watch the > > socio-political developments as they unfolded. However, his > > relationship is > > formed not only from his professional involvement but also > emerges > > from a > > personal commitment that is evident in his book. In Srinagar, he > > is remembered > > as a pro-Kashmiri Indian bureaucrat who believed in dialogue and > > accommodation;in the tumultuous decade of the 1990s, he was > > considered the only human face of > > the Indian state, at a time when there was a total breakdown of > > the social > > contract and trust between the latter and the Kashmiri people. > > Habibullahworked tirelessly, even risking his life, to repair > and > > restore some semblance > > of engagement through his efforts at various levels. > > > >   > > > > My Kashmir: Conflict and the Prospects > > of Enduring Peace > > is a perceptive memoir peppered with anecdotes that offer > personal > > and mostly > > honest insights into the tensions and distrust between Kashmir > and > > India that > > marked the formative years of their relationship and how such > > mutual suspicion > > led to the emergence of one of the deadliest insurgencies in the > > region that > > still claims a heavy toll of lives. The book tries to offer a > > sympathetic view > > of the Kashmir problem – not from an academic angle or political > > standpoint,but from a humanitarian perspective. The author draws > > extensively from his > > experiences of working both as an administrator under various > > local Kashmiri > > governments and in the offices of two Indian prime ministers. In his > > introduction, Habibullah asserts that although not a Kashmiri > > himself, he has > > tried to see the situation through the eyes of one committed > both > > to India and > > to serving the people of Kashmir.   > > > >   > > > > He points out that the government of > > India’s constant fear that Kashmiris might gravitate towards > > Pakistan has > > meant > > that ‘national security interests’ have taken precedence over > > everythingelse, > > including the rights of people. Giving examples from his > personal > > experience,he tells us how Indian paramilitary forces > > ‘accosted…and humiliated > > [Kashmiris] > > as they returned home late from work’ [p.26] in early 1970 or > how > > a top > > Border > > Security Force (BSF) officer, Brigadier General Randhawa,  > > threatened to > > enter the homes of Kashmiris and ‘shoot anyone they suspected of > > intendingmischief’. [p.25] This privileging of the ‘national > > security interest’ > > affected > > the author as well as his civilian authority was often bypassed > by > > the Army and > > police and on one occasion earned him a serious reprimand from > the > > ChiefSecretary, the senior-most bureaucrat in the state, for not > > being quick enough > > in issuing warrants for the arrest of the workers of an > opposition > > politicalparty. When in 1990, he requested the notoriously anti- > > Muslim governor Jagmohan > > to issue an appeal to Pandits (Kashmiri Hindus) not to leave the > > Kashmir valley > > and offer them protection, instead, Jagmohan did the opposite, > thereby> triggering their exodus. It also prompted the widely held > belief > > that the > > Pandit migration was initiated to clear the field for the Indian > > Army and > > paramilitary forces to target Kashmiri Muslims more freely and > > without any > > collateral damage to Hindu interests. > > > >   > > > > Habibullah offers several examples of > > how the Indian government and its officials continue to see > > Kashmir through the > > prism solely of ‘national security’ concerns, enabling all > manner of > > malpractices that have further fuelled feelings of alienation > > among Kashmiris. > > He himself became a victim of the same mindset when Governor > > Girish Saxena > > selectively edited his report on the notorious Kunan Poshpora > rape > > of 1992 by > > the Indian Army, giving a clean chit to the personnel involved. > > This report > > deeply angered Kashmiris and cost Habibullah his credibility > among > > them – so > > much so that a militant group tried to assassinate him. > > > >   > > > > This security-related concern has fed > > a distrust of Kashmiris in general and pervades the highest > > levels; the prime > > minister Indira Gandhi ‘not only rejected the proposal [to > upgrade > > Srinagarairport as an International one] outright but called in > > her joint secretary, > > who had recommended acceptance, to admonish him that an ulterior > > motive must > > always be suspected in any such proposal received from that > > state’. [p55]. > > This > > deep distrust of Kashmiris was shared by the Indian prime > minister > > MorarjiDesai who stated during a meeting in Srinagar that “one > > doesn’t know whom > > to > > trust in Kashmir”. On another occasion, when Indira Gandhi was > > touring the > > valley > > during an election campaign in 1983, she said to Habibullah that > > her public > > gatherings ‘looked entirely fake’. The author’s own observation > > about the > > Indian Independence Day celebrations is that the Kashmiris never > felt> enthusiastic and ‘not even the parade or loudly played > national > > anthem could > > attract an audience’. [p.29] > > > >   > > > > He makes some insightful observations > > about the characteristics of the Kashmiri people and calls their > > dexterity in > > weaving conspiracy theories legendary. However, his explanation > of the > > Hazratbal siege in 1993 is a no less skilful conspiracy theory > > when he claims > > that the police made false assumptions based on the word of a > head > > constablewho was a Jama’at-i-Islami sympathiser, thus > effectively > > placing the blame on > > the Jama’at. He forgets, in the process, that according to the > initial> intelligence reports quoted by the official media at the > time, one > > of the > > reasons for the siege was the presence inside the shrine of Syed > > Salahudin,chief of the Hizbul Mujahideen, and foreign militants, > > which was eventually > > proved wrong. If the police constable was a Jama’at sympathiser > > who raised a > > false alarm, his information should have been implausible given > > the official > > assessments about the presence of Syed Salahudin, himself a > former > > Jama’atactivist. > > However, apart from this seemingly strange explanation for the > > genesis of the > > Hazratbal seige, Habibullah’s role in mitigating the crisis was > > phenomenal as > > he conducted negotiations with the holed-up militants at great > > risk to his own > > safety. His well known opposition to any hard-line military > action > > angered the > > Indian army high command who allegedly tried to kill him when > his > > car was hit > > by an army vehicle, severely injuring him. > > > >   > > > > The incident did not deter Habibullah > > who continued his efforts to seek dialogue with the pro- > > independence Kashmiri > > separatists – both militants and the political leadership. He > has held > > various > > meetings and discussions with these leaders over the past two > > decades, opening > > and sustaining various channels of communications. However, he > is > > too modest > > and does not give himself enough credit, despite the fact that > it > > is his > > efforts that have been central to keeping alive the dialogue > > process between > > the Indian government and Kashmiri separatists. His assessment > of > > Kashmiriseparatists > > is that they lack leadership and vision and finds them devoid of > > clarity of > > thought or goal. He narrates an interesting anecdote about 1977 > > state elections > > as to how the Mirwaiz Moulvi Mohammad Farooq (father of current > > Mirwaiz Umar > > Farooq) tried to blackmail him by threatening to ‘set Srinagar > on > > fire’ if > > Habibullah stopped him from taking a procession in support of > the > > Janata Party > > headed by then Indian Prime Minister Morari Desai to which > Mirwaiz > > was aligned > > at that time. He characterizes Sheikh Abdullah’s government a > > ‘sheikhdom’and > > observes that ‘in his last years in power, Abdullah was more > > concerned with > > securing an orderly succession than with running the > government’. > > He also > > claims that a Western based JKLF leader came to meet him in 2004 > > in Washington > > and offered to work for the peace process. > > > >   > > > > The author contends that ‘Islam has > > been pivotal to the evolving politics of Kashmir, but more as a > > symbol of > > people fighting for identity rather than its religious > > ramifications’ and > > discounts any relationship between the Kashmiri militant groups > > and Al Qaeda as > > ‘insinuations ostensibly made to curry US favor’. He questions > > comparisonsbetween Kashmir and Northern Ireland adding that > while > > there was a demographic > > change in Northern Ireland , there was no such thing in Kashmir > – > > an argument > > hotly contested by Kashmiris. The systematic reduction of the > > Muslim population > > in Jammu and Kashmir since 1947, as evident from successive > > official census > > reports, is seen as a clear proof of demographic engineering, a > > fact that was > > raised by the Kashmiri leader Saifudin Soz, now the Indian > > Minister of Water > > Resources and head of the Congress party in Jammu and Kashmir. > > Also, fears of > > demographic change were the main reason for recent mass protests > > in Srinagar > > triggered > > by the illegal land transfer by the local state government to a > > semi-government > > Hindu body, the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB). > > > >   > > > > Habibullah stresses the symbolic > > importance of Kashmir to both India and Pakistan and calls for > any > > settlementto keep in mind the question of national pride in both > > countries so that no > > ‘substantial compromise on territory can or should be expected – > > or even > > hoped > > for’. He accepts that freedom is the ‘dream of every Kashmiri’ > but > > tendsto > > differentiate between freedom and independence, a term Kashmiris > > usually use > > interchangeably. He contends that the Indian constitution > > guarantees that > > freedom which ‘can be achieved while retaining the territorial > > integrity of > > both India and Pakistan with the present boundaries becoming > soft > > borders’,and > > advocates against an independent Kashmir saying that ‘true > freedom > > cannot be > > won by independence, which would bring even more suffering and > > would be > > unacceptable to both India and Pakistan’. His argument is that ‘an > > independent > > state of 5.44 million people occupying 85,00 mostly mountainous > > square miles, > > located in one of the world’s most volatile regions amid rival > > nuclear powers > > and a number of smaller states in conflict, with potential oil > > wealth, is > > hardly likely to be left free’.  > > > >   > > > > Wajahat Habibullah lives up to his > > reputation of being sympathetic to Kashmiris as he repeatedly > > refers to the > > pain and agony they have suffered ‘as a result of confrontations > > betweenIndia > > and Pakistan during the intervening half century’. He laments > > strongly the > > oppressive treatment of Kashmiris by the Indian state at various > > levels, a > > treatment that could be easily classified as structural > violence. > > He observes > > that personal relations between political leaders of India and > Kashmir> ‘played > > a marked role in the trajectory of Jammu and Kashmir’s history’ > > effectivelysuggesting that they were overwhelmingly elite > > arrangements that lacked popular > > consent or appeal. He places the need for the restoration of > > Kashmiri dignity > > and self respect at the heart of his argument. Expressing > sympathy > > with the > > Kashmiri perception of a long history of continuous humiliation > > since accession > > to India in 1947, he calls upon India to concede those rights > and > > libertiesthat are the entitlement of ‘every Indian citizen’ and > > prophesies that > > otherwise ‘simmering resentments in Kashmir will render any > > abiding peace > > elusive’. He is greatly perturbed about Kashmiris being held in > > contempt by > > both India and Pakistan as a people that can be ‘bought and > sold’, and > > argues > > that such an attitude has added to the complexities in the > > relationship between > > India and Kashmir. > > > >   > > > > He describes the autonomy report > > prepared by the Farooq Abdullah government in 2000 as flawed, > but > > calls its > > rejection by the central Indian government as an opportunity > > squandered. Habibullah constantly points out the confusions and > > contradictions in New > > Delhi’s Kashmir policy as a result of competing and confusing > > views across > > various government departments. In his view, the dialogue > between > > the Hurriyat > > leaders and New Delhi’s interlocutor NN Vohra (currently the > > governor of > > Jammu > > and Kashmir ) failed due to this sort of confusion, which eroded the > > credibility of the then prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee > among > > the Hurriyat > > leaders. He assesses the deep-rooted suspicion of Kashmiris as > the > > mainbottleneck for future negotiations and argues that the > > credibility of Indian > > institutions in Kashmir remains fragile. He calls for a ‘balance > > betweenimmediate security concerns and long-term good will and > > cooperation’, tacitly > > admitting that the current peace process remains inconclusive > due > > to the slow > > or absence of responses from the Indian side. He observes that > the US > > government also shares the view that Pakistan has been more > > forthcoming with > > compromises than India in the present peace process and quotes > > Pakistan’sHigh > > Commissioner in India, Ashraf Jehangir Qazi, who told him in > early > > 2002 that > > ‘officially Pakistan was willing to compromise on the issue of > > Jammu and > > Kashmir ...however, a settlement along the LoC (Line of Control) > > would be seen > > by the Pakistani people as surrender unless the settlement was > > accompanied by > > some accommodation on India’s part”. > > > >   > > > > Despite its valuable insights and > > richness in anecdotal detail, Habibullah’s claim that principal > > reasons for > > militant groups to find new recruits for insurgency are more > > linked to economic > > incentives of greed rather than the grievance, grossly > > underestimates the > > effects of massive human rights violations, humiliation felt by > > Kashmiris on > > multiple accounts including increasing marginalisation.  The > > recently held > > massive public protests in the streets of Srinagar that was > > spearheaded and > > sustained by the common people should be an eye opener about the > > frustrationsand anger of the Kashmiri population. There are also > > some glaring omissions in > > the author’s references to certain historical events. While > > discussing the > > problem of communalism [p23] he briefly mentions that Muslims in > Jammu> ‘migrated to Pakistan to avoid bloodbath’, conveniently > forgetting > > aboutthe > > massacre precipitated by the Maharaja that killed thousands of > > Muslims and > > forced hundreds of thousands to migrate to Pakistan. Similarly > in > > the beginning > > of the chapter two, he briefly mentions the attacks on Jamaa’t-i- > > islamisupporters following the death of Zulfiqar Bhutto in 1979, > > but omits the > > details about widespread loot, plunder and arson that was > > engineered with the > > tacit support of the National Conference led government headed > by > > SheikhAbdullah. Several people were killed while hundreds were > > rendered homeless, but > > this does not find mention in the book.  Habibullah also tends > to > > read the > > history of Partition one-sidedly and places the onus on Sir Syed > > Ahmad Khan for > > the ultimate division, but fails to recognise the role of Hindu > > fundamentalists, or Gandhi’s responsibility in his choice of > > leadership of > > the > > Congress, his distrust of Muslims as well as his invocation of > > Hindu symbols > > and mythology to cultivate mass political support.  And, lastly, > > the time > > line provided at the end of the book needs expanding to include > > events like 11 > > February 1984 – the hanging of Maqbool Bhat and other such > > important events > > that > > have shaped the recent history of the beleaguered region.   > > > >   > > > > The merit of the book lies in the > > clarity of its arguments and the modest approach of the author. My > > Kashmir: Conflict and the Prospects of Enduring Peace is a wonderful > > contributionto understanding Kashmir and the efforts at peace- > > building there. > > It is hoped that the USIP will further broaden its commendable > > efforts to > > promote the peace in the region by expanding its work and > > resources, engaging > > more scholars from the area, in order to help the ongoing peace > > process and > > offer specific insights into the problem that Wajahat Habibullah > > stronglybelieves is ‘tractable’. > > > >   > > > > > > Interview- Wajahat Habibullah > > > > Chief Information Commissioner, India > > Murtaza > > Shibli > > > >   > > > > There is a strong lament in your book > > about the destruction of Kashmir. Yet you sound so hopeful of a > > solution. Why? > > > > Because > > there is a very strong yearning and will for peace and people > want > > to live with > > dignity and peace. I think most of the people are sick of > violence > > and they > > want to seek a solution through the constitutional and legal > > mechanism. > > > > It > > is now the duty of India, Pakistan and primarily the Kashmiri > > leadership to > > afford a sense of dignity and participation to the people of > Jammu > > and Kashmir > > to ensure a longterm solution. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s > > idea of Round > > Table Conference was part of extending that hope and translating > > it into > > action. > > > >   > > > > Whenever there is some hope of a > > solution it is punctured by some untoward incidents. The recent > > controversy of > > land transfer to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB) is > exactly > > the kind of > > setback that reverses such hopes. > > > > A. > > The controversies like SASB  is a cause > > for great pain and apprehension. It is a major setback which has > > killed a part > > of me. We can’t shut our eyes to issues like this. > Unfortunately, > > Governor SK > > Sinha failed to gauge the aspirations of the Kashmiri people. He > > equated the > > problems with what he had seen in the rest of the country, but > > Kashmir is > > different. Thankfully, the new governor NN Vohra has a great > > understanding of > > Kashmir unlike his predecessors and hopefully this will prove > > beneficial to the > > people of Kashmir and rest of the country. > > > >   > > > > You mention about the Indian policy > > being always guided by its perception of security and national > > interest. And > > now it seems to me that this ‘national interest’ is being > extended to > > religion > > as well. Giving land to SASB is seen as a legitimate function > and > > role of the > > Indian government for ensuring Indian presence in Kashmir. Is > > religion now > > being securitised? > > > > It > > has been by some, but not by the government. As you know, the > land > > was never > > actually transferred, and when government became aware of the public > > resentment, the order was revoked. > > > >   > > > > Despite progress in the India-Pakistan > > peace process, the Kashmiris are very sceptical of a solution > > emerging. What do > > you think is the reason? > > > > There > > is frustration because the Kashmiris are feeling left out of the > > peace building > > process between India and Pakistan. Their skepticism can be > > mitigated by their > > being made part of the process. This can be achieved through > > different means, > > but basically it should flow from an effort to build trust. > > > >   > > > > There is a general belief that India’s > > slow or non-response to President Musharraf’s proposals killed > the > > initialoptimism about the peace process and now the new > political > > challenges in both > > countries have nearly stalled the process. > > > > The > > General’s proposals were responded to in positive manner by no > > less than the > > Prime Minister of India. It is true however that there are those > > within our > > establishment that were averse to them. At any rate, it is my > firm > > belief that > > democratic governments will be able to come to a more enduring > > settlementacceptable to their people and therefore such > solutions > > will be stronger. > > > >   > > > > You make an observation in your book > > about the Kashmiris’ penchant for cooking up conspiracy > theories. > > But your > > explanation about the Hazratbal Siege, blaming a Jama’at-i- > Islami > > sympathiserpolice constable sounds like a conspiracy as well? > > > > Well, > > that is my suspicion, based on having been hands on in the > > negotiation. And the > > constable was the one who had delivered the highly exaggerated > > misinformationthat provoked the siege of the shrine. > > > >   > > > > You seem to discount the massive human > > rights violations and its impact on fuelling insurgency and > > winning new > > recruits to it. Is there any particular reason you see the main > > motivation for > > insurgency as money rather than human rights violations and the > > anger that it > > generates? > > > > I > > do not discount the cost in human rights, and have spoken of my > direct> experience of such incidents. But I cannot claim to have > covered those > > incidents of which I had no direct experience. And I don’t see > > money as the > > reason at all. The outbreak was > > precipitated by a genuine anger. That became a reason for its > > persistence into > > the mid ‘90s. After that however, money has begun to play an > ever > > largerrole. > > I have known several young men who have or whose parents have > > admitted to me as > > much. And this very susceptibility to take to violence for money > > does indeed > > stem from anger > > > >   > > > > You mention that freedom is the choice > > of every Kashmiri but then claim that this freedom is guaranteed > > by the Indian > > Constitution. How do you reconcile the two ideas? Surely the > > majority of > > Kashmiri separatists don’t want to operate within the ambit of > the > > IndianConstitution? > > > > Freedom > > in my view is freedom-and freedom is guaranteed by India’s > > Constitution. My > > argument is that the Kashmiris be allowed to enjoy that freedom. > > > >   > > > > What is your position on Article 370 > > and how do you see certain Indian political groups like BJP who > > lobby for its > > abrogation? > > > >  Article 370 allows Jammu and Kashmir to be the > > only state in India to have a constitution of its own, something > > that is the > > right of every State in a federal structure like the US. Its > > abrogation would > > be regressive. But it should not be used to perpetuate the > > dominance of a > > ruling elite within J&K, as it has in the past. It must allow > the > > people of > > the state as much, if not more freedom than guaranteed to the > > people of India > > by India’s constitution. > > > >   > > > > There is this greater talk about south > > Asia as a reference point where borders can become irrelevant. Can’t > > President Musharraf’s > > ‘Joint management’ plan for Kashmir be the beginning of a post- > > WestphalianSouth Asia? > > > > A > > counter-question. Why should the people of Jammu and Kashmir > > submit to > > management by another or worse still by joint management of more > > than one? Are > > any of India’s > > other States “managed” by the Centre? > > > >   > > > > You discount any link between Kashmiri > > militants and Al Qaeda, yet in many official Indian accounts a > > large stress is > > placed on the claims of International jihadism including links > > between the Al > > Qaeda and Kashmiri insurgency. > > > > I > > have seen no links, and I have seen the insurgency from close > > quarters. > >   > > > > How would you compare freedom of > > information regime in south Asia? And could this be useful in > ways > > to promote > > peace and cooperation in the region? > > > > India > > in its Right to Information Act 2005 has among the world’s most > > enlightenedlegislations of this nature. Certainly I have been > > working with the Jammu and > > Kashmir (J&K) State government to adopt this legislation for the > > State, if > > not taking advantage of Article 379 to have an even stronger law > > of this > > nature. The J&K law passed originally in 2004 is totally without > >substance,and as a result has hardly been used at all. Bangladesh > > has in May 2008 adopted > > a Right to Information Ordnance based in great measure on India’s > > legislation; > > Nepal had done so earlier. Pakistan’s Freedom of Information > > Ordnance 2002 > > has > > some weaknesses which will need strengthening. > > > >   > > > > How do you see the current situation > > in Pakistan and the struggle for democracy? > > > > I > > have never been to Pakistan, but I have always been an ardent > > supporter of > > democracy. Unfortunately, Pakistan like many Third World > countries > > has been > > experimenting with short bouts of democracy alongside dictatorship. > > Dictatorships succeed in the short term, but they bring ruin in > > the long term > > without much in the form of infrastructure that could > effectively > > govern a > > modern state. > > > > The > > current situation is Pakistan is interesting and I see it as > first > > falteringsteps to bring a democracy and I wish them well. But > the > > onus is on the newly > > elected government to build credible institutions and > > infrastructure to which > > people can identify with and feel a part of. It is a difficult > > road ahead, but > > I strongly hope the democracy in Pakistan flourishes. > > > > > > > > > >      __________________________________________________________ > > Not happy with your email address?. > > Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses > > available now at > > Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > > >  > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: > > > __________________________________________________________ > Not happy with your email address?. > Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses > available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in Tue Jul 22 18:52:08 2008 From: ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in (Ranjith Thankappan) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:52:08 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs Message-ID: <506608.37465.qm@web8704.mail.in.yahoo.com> koolie is the word We respect, but not the word IIT dear. bz it s an exclusivist agraharam which unashamedly resist the "winds of new world" enter its brahmincla fotrss. nothing will happen to this country if we shut down this agraharam.lol !! Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From tapasrayx at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 20:51:18 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:21:18 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs In-Reply-To: <506608.37465.qm@web8704.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <506608.37465.qm@web8704.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Ranjith, You are obviously responding to me, though you haven't addressed me directly. I really do not have the time for this, but the visceral nature of your hatred is just too fascinating :) 2008/7/22 Ranjith Thankappan : > koolie is the word We respect, but not the word IIT dear. Anyone is free to love or hate the IITs or anything else for any reason. I did not, and do not propose to say anything defending or opposing their position on the reservation issue, because (a) it is far too complex for someone of your disposition, (b) I have not studied it nearly as much as I needs to if I am to comment, and (c) I don't have the time. But please do not tell me that your use of the word koolie indicated your respect for them. Such a claim is ridiculous, and shows that you are being less than honest. No one is going to eat you on this list if you stand by some politically incorrect or really retrograde statement, as long as you can defend it with reason. > bz it s an exclusivist agraharam which unashamedly resist the "winds of new world" enter its brahmincla fotrss. > nothing will happen to this country if we shut down this agraharam.lol !! Whatever "agraharam" means, they are not about to be shut down, as far as I can see. So, you will probably have to live with a non-happening India for a while. In that, you have my sympathies :)) Best, Tapas From kuhutanvir at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 21:04:31 2008 From: kuhutanvir at gmail.com (Kuhu Tanvir) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 21:04:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] WideScreen - open access film journal Message-ID: *WideScreen*** peer reviewed, open access film journal ISSN 1757-3920 http://www.widescreenjournal.org *About* *WideScreen* is a peer-reviewed, open access journal. It is devoted to the critical study of cinema from historical, theoretical, political, and aesthetic perspectives. The journal is a continuation of sorts of subalterncinema.com and it aims to combine the best of academic and journalistic critique of cinema and to look at the various critical vantage points from which to understand cinema in this dynamic environment. *Call for Papers* The most encouraging development in film in the recent past has been a change in the attitude towards what is commonly called alternative cinema. Representation of the minority —of race, ethnicity, sex, sexuality etc—is said to be adopting the 'new cultural politics of difference.' Broadly, there are two impulses: one, a celebration of the differences, where new identities are formed and there is a sense of pride in them. Two, a desire to assimilate the alternative into a master narrative. More importantly, there are sides to be taken, by the filmmakers, by the audience, by everyone. Is there really a new culture, is it beneficial, if yes, how, what is the nature of the hybrid that is often a result of these new impulses etc are all questions we are still thinking about and to which there are a wide variety of answers. But the debate is on and with every passing moment we are faced with new possibilities and new perspectives. New media and developments within film have facilitated easy means of presenting points of view: film festivals, multiplexes, YouTube etc have enormous food for thought and immense possibilities. Yet, the basic distinction between mainstream and the alternative is visible in the use of these very words. A change is upon us, but much is to be achieved before it is felt by one and all. Thus, the inaugural issue of *WideScreen* aims to critically re-examine cinema against the backdrop of existing hegemonies and re-conceptualise the cinema located in the gaps of the popular. We invite critical papers on "subaltern cinema" and the "subaltern" in cinema. *Editors* **Kishore Budha, Gopalan Ravindran, Kuhu Tanvir *Advisory Board* - Anand Patwardhan - Christine Gledhill - Latika Padgaonkar - Laura Mulvey - Rakesh Sharma - Ralf Christensen *Editorial Board* · Anurag Kashyap · Diane Myers · Frederick Noronha · Graham Roberts · Kartik Nair · Kuba Mikurda · Rebecca Romanow · Rituparno Ghosh · Sean M Tierney · Tilman Baumgarten · Todd McGowan · Norman Yusoff · Mahyuddin Ahmad Send in your articles, interviews, reviews, essays to kuhu at subalterncinema.com From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 23:46:33 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat Habibullah -MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 Message-ID: <530063.99232.qm@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> But we have make beginning somewhere.Mere discussions,which we have been doing for decades, will not lead us anywhere.Yes,India will have to take a lead and generate confidence in this part of world. Regards, Prabhakar ----- Original Message ---- From: "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" To: kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Tuesday, 22 July, 2008 4:26:02 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat Habibullah -MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 Onus is on all of us, to make this reality, as free India is secular country where all religions and faiths are co-habiting and but for occassional games of fanacism to gain votes, the oldest party which taught the game of vote bank appeasements for castes, faiths and regions, let us stop at the vistims of blame game, as all of us equally responsible for responding to this blame game, we shall take responsiblity to unite as united India, where all faiths are respected, all citizens are governed well without discrepencies and discrimination based on caste, faith region and language, all are equal in just rule of laws in democratic life. Once we accept this then all will be clear in their life as citizens in united India, none favoured for faith, caste and region. Pakistan being an islamic state has failed state in governance with zero tolerence for any good governance, India in its present form of governance has bad and lopsided governance because of vote bank politics, once th e entire cotozens are under one rule of laws as democratic nation, each group of citizens will respect the integrity of their federal structure and good leaders will emerge out of this democratic life, to give good rule of laws, without fear or favour to any set of sections of society, based on caste, faith and region as entire resources are of this entity, united India, the leaders with vision need not cater to sections of the citizens, but to all citizens as otherwise the responsible citizens would throw them out of power equations for bad governance as is happening now for the oldest party. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kashmir Affairs Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 2:02 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat Habibullah -MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 To: reader-list at sarai.net > I agree too. But in my view the onus is on India. And Kashmir > could demystify the borders of nation states that were created in > 1947. > There is merit in 'Joint Control' - This will allow India and > Pakistan to merge their identities in Kashmir - a place that has > become cause and symbol of fighting both for land as well as their > respective identities. Joint Control will neutralise both - the > puritans of Pakistan who believe in Muslim identity and the > Hindutva forces - both feed on each other. Kashmir could alter > political landscape between india and pakistan. > As far as Bangladesh is concerned - I feel that migration of > Bengalis to India attests that they can't live without India and > hence a future within India might be something to explore. Again, > India being bigger and 'mother country', it could set the process > in motion. Bengalis should be allowed to migrate into mainland > India and slowly it should be integrated into India. That could > perhaps reassure Pakistanis of their safety if they join back to > India following Joint Control on Kashmir and Bangladeshi example. > > Murtaza > > ----- > Murtaza Shibli > www.kashmiraffairs.org > > --- On Tue, 22/7/08, Prabhakar Singh wrote: > > From: Prabhakar Singh > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat > Habibullah - MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; > USIP, 2008 > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Tuesday, 22 July, 2008, 8:40 AM > > I agree with this solution but politicians of all these countries, > to further > their own interests,will see to it that merger does not take place > at any > cost.We,therefore, will have to take initiative separately or jump > intopolitics now to solve this problem. > Regards, > Prabhakar Singh > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Tuesday, 22 July, 2008 12:22:14 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat > Habibullah - > MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 > > Only solution to Kashmir is mergers of Pakistan, Bangladesh along > with Kashmir > into secular India, which has been formed by merger of over 357 > kingdoms of the > yester years, in good governance make states out of these > territories also with > elections to throw up good leaders of each region, and in > democracy, with just > rule of laws, without fear or favour to any faith, caste. The national > exchequer used only for good governance of all citizens without any > discrimination of region, caste, faith and language. United India > with all > faiths is more a reality and solution to all misadventures of > armies and > fanatics of faiths. > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008 4:29 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat > Habibullah - MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring > Peace; USIP, 2008 > To: reader-list at sarai.net, kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk > > > Murtaza Shibli asked Wajahat Habibullah about the possibilities > > (with regard to Kashmir) of borders becoming irrelevant and of > > Joint Management (by India and Pakistan). WH dismissed the Joint > > Management idea. > > > > This reminded me of a conversation with Murtaza Shibli a few > weeks > > back (in another forum). The context (hopefully) will be clear > in > > the extracted portion of my mail. > > > > QUOTE > :""""""""""""""""" > All of the above does not negate the fact > > that there is a 'human' aspect of families who were cleaved > apart > > in 1947-48, whatever be their percentage. Recognising this, I > had > > spoken about " other facilitations designed for such families > > rather than a 'open border' system". You insist however that > "The > > free movement is definitely possible". I continue to disagree on > that. > > > > You say "There is a real need for open borders, as majority of > > people in the border areas have suffered massively". I am not > > arguing against the "need" but against the > "possibility". > > > > If there ever comes a time of 'open borders' between the SAARC > > then 'Disputed Kashmir' automatically falls under it's > umbrella. > > Till then a "Kashmir" specific arrangement of "open > borders" would > > be nothing short of a fantasy: > > > > - How will the rest of India and the rest of Pakistan be > > insulated from 'illegal ingress' of "Pakistanis" and > "Indians" > > respectively? > > - Where would the Indian and Pakistani border controls start? > > > > - Would there be Pakistani controls on India's border with > > "Kashmir" and Indian controls on Pakistan's border with > "Kashmir"? > > How would that be different from " joint control? > > > > I could go on, but the critical factor on which any arrangement > > would hinge would be what you yourself called the "the mutual > > biases or suspicions". > > > > It would be naive of anyone to believe that those "mutual biases > > and suspicions" will go away in any hurry. Impacting that is not > > only the past history between the two countries but other much > > more disturbing trends and threats too which I will not go into > > for now. > > > > That is why I spoke about " other facilitations designed for > such > > families rather than a 'open border' > > > system". """"""""""""""""""""""""" > UNQUOTE > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Sun, 7/20/08, Kashmir Affairs > wrote: > > > > From: Kashmir Affairs > > Subject: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat > > Habibullah - My Kashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring > Peace; > > USIP, 2008 > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 2:36 PM > > > > My Kashmir: Conflict and Prospects of > > Enduring Peace > > > > By Wajahat Habibullah > > > > United States Institute of Peace, > > Washington, 2008 > > > > > > > > Murtaza Shibli > > > > [www.kashmiraffairs.org] > > > > One of India’s finest and best known > > Muslim civil servants, Wajahat Habibullah has remained > associated > > with Kashmir > > through his appointments to various bureaucratic posts for > nearly > > threedecades. > > This has given him a certain vantage point from which to watch the > > socio-political developments as they unfolded. However, his > > relationship is > > formed not only from his professional involvement but also > emerges > > from a > > personal commitment that is evident in his book. In Srinagar, he > > is remembered > > as a pro-Kashmiri Indian bureaucrat who believed in dialogue and > > accommodation;in the tumultuous decade of the 1990s, he was > > considered the only human face of > > the Indian state, at a time when there was a total breakdown of > > the social > > contract and trust between the latter and the Kashmiri people. > > Habibullahworked tirelessly, even risking his life, to repair > and > > restore some semblance > > of engagement through his efforts at various levels. > > > > > > > > My Kashmir: Conflict and the Prospects > > of Enduring Peace > > is a perceptive memoir peppered with anecdotes that offer > personal > > and mostly > > honest insights into the tensions and distrust between Kashmir > and > > India that > > marked the formative years of their relationship and how such > > mutual suspicion > > led to the emergence of one of the deadliest insurgencies in the > > region that > > still claims a heavy toll of lives. The book tries to offer a > > sympathetic view > > of the Kashmir problem – not from an academic angle or political > > standpoint,but from a humanitarian perspective. The author draws > > extensively from his > > experiences of working both as an administrator under various > > local Kashmiri > > governments and in the offices of two Indian prime ministers. In his > > introduction, Habibullah asserts that although not a Kashmiri > > himself, he has > > tried to see the situation through the eyes of one committed > both > > to India and > > to serving the people of Kashmir. > > > > > > > > He points out that the government of > > India’s constant fear that Kashmiris might gravitate towards > > Pakistan has > > meant > > that ‘national security interests’ have taken precedence over > > everythingelse, > > including the rights of people. Giving examples from his > personal > > experience,he tells us how Indian paramilitary forces > > ‘accosted…and humiliated > > [Kashmiris] > > as they returned home late from work’ [p.26] in early 1970 or > how > > a top > > Border > > Security Force (BSF) officer, Brigadier General Randhawa, > > threatened to > > enter the homes of Kashmiris and ‘shoot anyone they suspected of > > intendingmischief’. [p.25] This privileging of the ‘national > > security interest’ > > affected > > the author as well as his civilian authority was often bypassed > by > > the Army and > > police and on one occasion earned him a serious reprimand from > the > > ChiefSecretary, the senior-most bureaucrat in the state, for not > > being quick enough > > in issuing warrants for the arrest of the workers of an > opposition > > politicalparty. When in 1990, he requested the notoriously anti- > > Muslim governor Jagmohan > > to issue an appeal to Pandits (Kashmiri Hindus) not to leave the > > Kashmir valley > > and offer them protection, instead, Jagmohan did the opposite, > thereby> triggering their exodus. It also prompted the widely held > belief > > that the > > Pandit migration was initiated to clear the field for the Indian > > Army and > > paramilitary forces to target Kashmiri Muslims more freely and > > without any > > collateral damage to Hindu interests. > > > > > > > > Habibullah offers several examples of > > how the Indian government and its officials continue to see > > Kashmir through the > > prism solely of ‘national security’ concerns, enabling all > manner of > > malpractices that have further fuelled feelings of alienation > > among Kashmiris. > > He himself became a victim of the same mindset when Governor > > Girish Saxena > > selectively edited his report on the notorious Kunan Poshpora > rape > > of 1992 by > > the Indian Army, giving a clean chit to the personnel involved. > > This report > > deeply angered Kashmiris and cost Habibullah his credibility > among > > them – so > > much so that a militant group tried to assassinate him. > > > > > > > > This security-related concern has fed > > a distrust of Kashmiris in general and pervades the highest > > levels; the prime > > minister Indira Gandhi ‘not only rejected the proposal [to > upgrade > > Srinagarairport as an International one] outright but called in > > her joint secretary, > > who had recommended acceptance, to admonish him that an ulterior > > motive must > > always be suspected in any such proposal received from that > > state’. [p55]. > > This > > deep distrust of Kashmiris was shared by the Indian prime > minister > > MorarjiDesai who stated during a meeting in Srinagar that “one > > doesn’t know whom > > to > > trust in Kashmir”. On another occasion, when Indira Gandhi was > > touring the > > valley > > during an election campaign in 1983, she said to Habibullah that > > her public > > gatherings ‘looked entirely fake’. The author’s own observation > > about the > > Indian Independence Day celebrations is that the Kashmiris never > felt> enthusiastic and ‘not even the parade or loudly played > national > > anthem could > > attract an audience’. [p.29] > > > > > > > > He makes some insightful observations > > about the characteristics of the Kashmiri people and calls their > > dexterity in > > weaving conspiracy theories legendary. However, his explanation > of the > > Hazratbal siege in 1993 is a no less skilful conspiracy theory > > when he claims > > that the police made false assumptions based on the word of a > head > > constablewho was a Jama’at-i-Islami sympathiser, thus > effectively > > placing the blame on > > the Jama’at. He forgets, in the process, that according to the > initial> intelligence reports quoted by the official media at the > time, one > > of the > > reasons for the siege was the presence inside the shrine of Syed > > Salahudin,chief of the Hizbul Mujahideen, and foreign militants, > > which was eventually > > proved wrong. If the police constable was a Jama’at sympathiser > > who raised a > > false alarm, his information should have been implausible given > > the official > > assessments about the presence of Syed Salahudin, himself a > former > > Jama’atactivist. > > However, apart from this seemingly strange explanation for the > > genesis of the > > Hazratbal seige, Habibullah’s role in mitigating the crisis was > > phenomenal as > > he conducted negotiations with the holed-up militants at great > > risk to his own > > safety. His well known opposition to any hard-line military > action > > angered the > > Indian army high command who allegedly tried to kill him when > his > > car was hit > > by an army vehicle, severely injuring him. > > > > > > > > The incident did not deter Habibullah > > who continued his efforts to seek dialogue with the pro- > > independence Kashmiri > > separatists – both militants and the political leadership. He > has held > > various > > meetings and discussions with these leaders over the past two > > decades, opening > > and sustaining various channels of communications. However, he > is > > too modest > > and does not give himself enough credit, despite the fact that > it > > is his > > efforts that have been central to keeping alive the dialogue > > process between > > the Indian government and Kashmiri separatists. His assessment > of > > Kashmiriseparatists > > is that they lack leadership and vision and finds them devoid of > > clarity of > > thought or goal. He narrates an interesting anecdote about 1977 > > state elections > > as to how the Mirwaiz Moulvi Mohammad Farooq (father of current > > Mirwaiz Umar > > Farooq) tried to blackmail him by threatening to ‘set Srinagar > on > > fire’ if > > Habibullah stopped him from taking a procession in support of > the > > Janata Party > > headed by then Indian Prime Minister Morari Desai to which > Mirwaiz > > was aligned > > at that time. He characterizes Sheikh Abdullah’s government a > > ‘sheikhdom’and > > observes that ‘in his last years in power, Abdullah was more > > concerned with > > securing an orderly succession than with running the > government’. > > He also > > claims that a Western based JKLF leader came to meet him in 2004 > > in Washington > > and offered to work for the peace process. > > > > > > > > The author contends that ‘Islam has > > been pivotal to the evolving politics of Kashmir, but more as a > > symbol of > > people fighting for identity rather than its religious > > ramifications’ and > > discounts any relationship between the Kashmiri militant groups > > and Al Qaeda as > > ‘insinuations ostensibly made to curry US favor’. He questions > > comparisonsbetween Kashmir and Northern Ireland adding that > while > > there was a demographic > > change in Northern Ireland , there was no such thing in Kashmir > – > > an argument > > hotly contested by Kashmiris. The systematic reduction of the > > Muslim population > > in Jammu and Kashmir since 1947, as evident from successive > > official census > > reports, is seen as a clear proof of demographic engineering, a > > fact that was > > raised by the Kashmiri leader Saifudin Soz, now the Indian > > Minister of Water > > Resources and head of the Congress party in Jammu and Kashmir. > > Also, fears of > > demographic change were the main reason for recent mass protests > > in Srinagar > > triggered > > by the illegal land transfer by the local state government to a > > semi-government > > Hindu body, the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB). > > > > > > > > Habibullah stresses the symbolic > > importance of Kashmir to both India and Pakistan and calls for > any > > settlementto keep in mind the question of national pride in both > > countries so that no > > ‘substantial compromise on territory can or should be expected – > > or even > > hoped > > for’. He accepts that freedom is the ‘dream of every Kashmiri’ > but > > tendsto > > differentiate between freedom and independence, a term Kashmiris > > usually use > > interchangeably. He contends that the Indian constitution > > guarantees that > > freedom which ‘can be achieved while retaining the territorial > > integrity of > > both India and Pakistan with the present boundaries becoming > soft > > borders’,and > > advocates against an independent Kashmir saying that ‘true > freedom > > cannot be > > won by independence, which would bring even more suffering and > > would be > > unacceptable to both India and Pakistan’. His argument is that ‘an > > independent > > state of 5.44 million people occupying 85,00 mostly mountainous > > square miles, > > located in one of the world’s most volatile regions amid rival > > nuclear powers > > and a number of smaller states in conflict, with potential oil > > wealth, is > > hardly likely to be left free’. > > > > > > > > Wajahat Habibullah lives up to his > > reputation of being sympathetic to Kashmiris as he repeatedly > > refers to the > > pain and agony they have suffered ‘as a result of confrontations > > betweenIndia > > and Pakistan during the intervening half century’. He laments > > strongly the > > oppressive treatment of Kashmiris by the Indian state at various > > levels, a > > treatment that could be easily classified as structural > violence. > > He observes > > that personal relations between political leaders of India and > Kashmir> ‘played > > a marked role in the trajectory of Jammu and Kashmir’s history’ > > effectivelysuggesting that they were overwhelmingly elite > > arrangements that lacked popular > > consent or appeal. He places the need for the restoration of > > Kashmiri dignity > > and self respect at the heart of his argument. Expressing > sympathy > > with the > > Kashmiri perception of a long history of continuous humiliation > > since accession > > to India in 1947, he calls upon India to concede those rights > and > > libertiesthat are the entitlement of ‘every Indian citizen’ and > > prophesies that > > otherwise ‘simmering resentments in Kashmir will render any > > abiding peace > > elusive’. He is greatly perturbed about Kashmiris being held in > > contempt by > > both India and Pakistan as a people that can be ‘bought and > sold’, and > > argues > > that such an attitude has added to the complexities in the > > relationship between > > India and Kashmir. > > > > > > > > He describes the autonomy report > > prepared by the Farooq Abdullah government in 2000 as flawed, > but > > calls its > > rejection by the central Indian government as an opportunity > > squandered. Habibullah constantly points out the confusions and > > contradictions in New > > Delhi’s Kashmir policy as a result of competing and confusing > > views across > > various government departments. In his view, the dialogue > between > > the Hurriyat > > leaders and New Delhi’s interlocutor NN Vohra (currently the > > governor of > > Jammu > > and Kashmir ) failed due to this sort of confusion, which eroded the > > credibility of the then prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee > among > > the Hurriyat > > leaders. He assesses the deep-rooted suspicion of Kashmiris as > the > > mainbottleneck for future negotiations and argues that the > > credibility of Indian > > institutions in Kashmir remains fragile. He calls for a ‘balance > > betweenimmediate security concerns and long-term good will and > > cooperation’, tacitly > > admitting that the current peace process remains inconclusive > due > > to the slow > > or absence of responses from the Indian side. He observes that > the US > > government also shares the view that Pakistan has been more > > forthcoming with > > compromises than India in the present peace process and quotes > > Pakistan’sHigh > > Commissioner in India, Ashraf Jehangir Qazi, who told him in > early > > 2002 that > > ‘officially Pakistan was willing to compromise on the issue of > > Jammu and > > Kashmir ...however, a settlement along the LoC (Line of Control) > > would be seen > > by the Pakistani people as surrender unless the settlement was > > accompanied by > > some accommodation on India’s part”. > > > > > > > > Despite its valuable insights and > > richness in anecdotal detail, Habibullah’s claim that principal > > reasons for > > militant groups to find new recruits for insurgency are more > > linked to economic > > incentives of greed rather than the grievance, grossly > > underestimates the > > effects of massive human rights violations, humiliation felt by > > Kashmiris on > > multiple accounts including increasing marginalisation. The > > recently held > > massive public protests in the streets of Srinagar that was > > spearheaded and > > sustained by the common people should be an eye opener about the > > frustrationsand anger of the Kashmiri population. There are also > > some glaring omissions in > > the author’s references to certain historical events. While > > discussing the > > problem of communalism [p23] he briefly mentions that Muslims in > Jammu> ‘migrated to Pakistan to avoid bloodbath’, conveniently > forgetting > > aboutthe > > massacre precipitated by the Maharaja that killed thousands of > > Muslims and > > forced hundreds of thousands to migrate to Pakistan. Similarly > in > > the beginning > > of the chapter two, he briefly mentions the attacks on Jamaa’t-i- > > islamisupporters following the death of Zulfiqar Bhutto in 1979, > > but omits the > > details about widespread loot, plunder and arson that was > > engineered with the > > tacit support of the National Conference led government headed > by > > SheikhAbdullah. Several people were killed while hundreds were > > rendered homeless, but > > this does not find mention in the book. Habibullah also tends > to > > read the > > history of Partition one-sidedly and places the onus on Sir Syed > > Ahmad Khan for > > the ultimate division, but fails to recognise the role of Hindu > > fundamentalists, or Gandhi’s responsibility in his choice of > > leadership of > > the > > Congress, his distrust of Muslims as well as his invocation of > > Hindu symbols > > and mythology to cultivate mass political support. And, lastly, > > the time > > line provided at the end of the book needs expanding to include > > events like 11 > > February 1984 – the hanging of Maqbool Bhat and other such > > important events > > that > > have shaped the recent history of the beleaguered region. > > > > > > > > The merit of the book lies in the > > clarity of its arguments and the modest approach of the author. My > > Kashmir: Conflict and the Prospects of Enduring Peace is a wonderful > > contributionto understanding Kashmir and the efforts at peace- > > building there. > > It is hoped that the USIP will further broaden its commendable > > efforts to > > promote the peace in the region by expanding its work and > > resources, engaging > > more scholars from the area, in order to help the ongoing peace > > process and > > offer specific insights into the problem that Wajahat Habibullah > > stronglybelieves is ‘tractable’. > > > > > > > > > > Interview- Wajahat Habibullah > > > > Chief Information Commissioner, India > > Murtaza > > Shibli > > > > > > > > There is a strong lament in your book > > about the destruction of Kashmir. Yet you sound so hopeful of a > > solution. Why? > > > > Because > > there is a very strong yearning and will for peace and people > want > > to live with > > dignity and peace. I think most of the people are sick of > violence > > and they > > want to seek a solution through the constitutional and legal > > mechanism. > > > > It > > is now the duty of India, Pakistan and primarily the Kashmiri > > leadership to > > afford a sense of dignity and participation to the people of > Jammu > > and Kashmir > > to ensure a longterm solution. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s > > idea of Round > > Table Conference was part of extending that hope and translating > > it into > > action. > > > > > > > > Whenever there is some hope of a > > solution it is punctured by some untoward incidents. The recent > > controversy of > > land transfer to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB) is > exactly > > the kind of > > setback that reverses such hopes. > > > > A. > > The controversies like SASB is a cause > > for great pain and apprehension. It is a major setback which has > > killed a part > > of me. We can’t shut our eyes to issues like this. > Unfortunately, > > Governor SK > > Sinha failed to gauge the aspirations of the Kashmiri people. He > > equated the > > problems with what he had seen in the rest of the country, but > > Kashmir is > > different. Thankfully, the new governor NN Vohra has a great > > understanding of > > Kashmir unlike his predecessors and hopefully this will prove > > beneficial to the > > people of Kashmir and rest of the country. > > > > > > > > You mention about the Indian policy > > being always guided by its perception of security and national > > interest. And > > now it seems to me that this ‘national interest’ is being > extended to > > religion > > as well. Giving land to SASB is seen as a legitimate function > and > > role of the > > Indian government for ensuring Indian presence in Kashmir. Is > > religion now > > being securitised? > > > > It > > has been by some, but not by the government. As you know, the > land > > was never > > actually transferred, and when government became aware of the public > > resentment, the order was revoked. > > > > > > > > Despite progress in the India-Pakistan > > peace process, the Kashmiris are very sceptical of a solution > > emerging. What do > > you think is the reason? > > > > There > > is frustration because the Kashmiris are feeling left out of the > > peace building > > process between India and Pakistan. Their skepticism can be > > mitigated by their > > being made part of the process. This can be achieved through > > different means, > > but basically it should flow from an effort to build trust. > > > > > > > > There is a general belief that India’s > > slow or non-response to President Musharraf’s proposals killed > the > > initialoptimism about the peace process and now the new > political > > challenges in both > > countries have nearly stalled the process. > > > > The > > General’s proposals were responded to in positive manner by no > > less than the > > Prime Minister of India. It is true however that there are those > > within our > > establishment that were averse to them. At any rate, it is my > firm > > belief that > > democratic governments will be able to come to a more enduring > > settlementacceptable to their people and therefore such > solutions > > will be stronger. > > > > > > > > You make an observation in your book > > about the Kashmiris’ penchant for cooking up conspiracy > theories. > > But your > > explanation about the Hazratbal Siege, blaming a Jama’at-i- > Islami > > sympathiserpolice constable sounds like a conspiracy as well? > > > > Well, > > that is my suspicion, based on having been hands on in the > > negotiation. And the > > constable was the one who had delivered the highly exaggerated > > misinformationthat provoked the siege of the shrine. > > > > > > > > You seem to discount the massive human > > rights violations and its impact on fuelling insurgency and > > winning new > > recruits to it. Is there any particular reason you see the main > > motivation for > > insurgency as money rather than human rights violations and the > > anger that it > > generates? > > > > I > > do not discount the cost in human rights, and have spoken of my > direct> experience of such incidents. But I cannot claim to have > covered those > > incidents of which I had no direct experience. And I don’t see > > money as the > > reason at all. The outbreak was > > precipitated by a genuine anger. That became a reason for its > > persistence into > > the mid ‘90s. After that however, money has begun to play an > ever > > largerrole. > > I have known several young men who have or whose parents have > > admitted to me as > > much. And this very susceptibility to take to violence for money > > does indeed > > stem from anger > > > > > > > > You mention that freedom is the choice > > of every Kashmiri but then claim that this freedom is guaranteed > > by the Indian > > Constitution. How do you reconcile the two ideas? Surely the > > majority of > > Kashmiri separatists don’t want to operate within the ambit of > the > > IndianConstitution? > > > > Freedom > > in my view is freedom-and freedom is guaranteed by India’s > > Constitution. My > > argument is that the Kashmiris be allowed to enjoy that freedom. > > > > > > > > What is your position on Article 370 > > and how do you see certain Indian political groups like BJP who > > lobby for its > > abrogation? > > > > Article 370 allows Jammu and Kashmir to be the > > only state in India to have a constitution of its own, something > > that is the > > right of every State in a federal structure like the US. Its > > abrogation would > > be regressive. But it should not be used to perpetuate the > > dominance of a > > ruling elite within J&K, as it has in the past. It must allow > the > > people of > > the state as much, if not more freedom than guaranteed to the > > people of India > > by India’s constitution. > > > > > > > > There is this greater talk about south > > Asia as a reference point where borders can become irrelevant. Can’t > > President Musharraf’s > > ‘Joint management’ plan for Kashmir be the beginning of a post- > > WestphalianSouth Asia? > > > > A > > counter-question. Why should the people of Jammu and Kashmir > > submit to > > management by another or worse still by joint management of more > > than one? Are > > any of India’s > > other States “managed” by the Centre? > > > > > > > > You discount any link between Kashmiri > > militants and Al Qaeda, yet in many official Indian accounts a > > large stress is > > placed on the claims of International jihadism including links > > between the Al > > Qaeda and Kashmiri insurgency. > > > > I > > have seen no links, and I have seen the insurgency from close > > quarters. > > > > > > How would you compare freedom of > > information regime in south Asia? And could this be useful in > ways > > to promote > > peace and cooperation in the region? > > > > India > > in its Right to Information Act 2005 has among the world’s most > > enlightenedlegislations of this nature. Certainly I have been > > working with the Jammu and > > Kashmir (J&K) State government to adopt this legislation for the > > State, if > > not taking advantage of Article 379 to have an even stronger law > > of this > > nature. The J&K law passed originally in 2004 is totally without > >substance,and as a result has hardly been used at all. Bangladesh > > has in May 2008 adopted > > a Right to Information Ordnance based in great measure on India’s > > legislation; > > Nepal had done so earlier. Pakistan’s Freedom of Information > > Ordnance 2002 > > has > > some weaknesses which will need strengthening. > > > > > > > > How do you see the current situation > > in Pakistan and the struggle for democracy? > > > > I > > have never been to Pakistan, but I have always been an ardent > > supporter of > > democracy. Unfortunately, Pakistan like many Third World > countries > > has been > > experimenting with short bouts of democracy alongside dictatorship. > > Dictatorships succeed in the short term, but they bring ruin in > > the long term > > without much in the form of infrastructure that could > effectively > > govern a > > modern state. > > > > The > > current situation is Pakistan is interesting and I see it as > first > > falteringsteps to bring a democracy and I wish them well. But > the > > onus is on the newly > > elected government to build credible institutions and > > infrastructure to which > > people can identify with and feel a part of. It is a difficult > > road ahead, but > > I strongly hope the democracy in Pakistan flourishes. > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Not happy with your email address?. > > Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses > > available now at > > Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: > > > __________________________________________________________ > Not happy with your email address?. > Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses > available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/ From clifton at altlawforum.org Wed Jul 23 10:40:40 2008 From: clifton at altlawforum.org (Clifton D' Rozario) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:40:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Protest against murder of A.T.Babu in front of Mahatma Gandhi Statue (Bangalore) on Thursday (24th July) from 10.30 a.m. onwards Message-ID: <1216789840.5672.28.camel@alf-desktop> NAPM condemns murder of its Karnataka state convenor Day-long protest organised in front of Mahatma Gandhi Statue in Bangalore on Thursday (24th July) from 10.30 a.m. onwards Dear Friends, The gruesome murder of senior activist and campaigner for prohibition of liquor, Mr. A.T. Babu, one of the state convenors of NAPM in Karnataka, on Monday has shocked everyone. The National Alliance of People's Movements is organising a half day protest at Gandhi statute (M.G.Road) between 10.30 hrs and 15.00 hrs on Thursday (24th July). Senior NAPM activists from all over the country including Medha Patkar will be attending the protest. We invite you to attend the protest in great numbers to protest this brutal murder. Sr.Celia will be the lead organizer (9945716052) please encourage institutions, students and friends to participate in large numbers. Whoever can prepare banners, placards, please do. The focus should be on: demanding a CBI enquiry into the murder of A.T.Babu, a social activist. Secondly a condemnation of the dastardly actions of the liquor lobby. Finally on the same day, after the protest, we will have a hall meeting during which time, Medha Pathkar, P.Chennaiah and other leaders of the NAPM and PUCL, Karnataka will address the participants and help plan a future course of action. NAPM Karnataka NAPM contact Numbers in Karnataka: Sr. Celia, 09945716052; Balakrishnan: 080-23392354; David Selveraj, 09880290181 From rajeshr at csds.in Wed Jul 23 15:23:32 2008 From: rajeshr at csds.in (Rajesh Ramakrishnan) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 15:23:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rajni Kothari Annual Lecture by Sudipta Kaviraj; 31st July, 5 PM, CSDS Message-ID: 31st July 2008, 5 PM Seminar Hall, CSDS 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi - 110054 Rajni Kothari Annual Lecture On the Distinctiveness of Indian Democracy: Reading Indian Democracy through Tocqueville by Professor Sudipta Kaviraj Chair: Professor Ashis Nandy ICSSR National Fellow, CSDS Professor Sudipta Kaviraj, Professor of Indian Politics and Intellectual History at Columbia University, is Rajni Kothari Chair Professor at CSDS. His publications include The Unhappy Consciousness: Bankimchandra Chattopadhyay and the Formation of Nationalist Discourse in India (OUP 1993); (Ed.) Politics in India (OUP 1998); (Ed. with Sunil Khilnani) Civil Society: History and Possibilities (Cambridge 2000); (Ed. with Martin Doornbos) Dynamics of State Formation: Europe and India Compared (Sage 1998); and (with Krishna Bharadwaj) Perspectives on Capitalism: Marx, Keynes, Schumpeter and Weber (Sage 1989). From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Wed Jul 23 16:28:17 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 03:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs Message-ID: <148479.98418.qm@web31503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Any discussion is meaningful as long as we are open minded and considerate to the opinions of the other side otherwise it takes a shape of fight and bitterness.Observance of these boundaries will help everybody. Prabhakar ----- Original Message ---- From: Tapas Ray To: sarai list Sent: Tuesday, 22 July, 2008 8:21:18 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shame on IITs Dear Ranjith, You are obviously responding to me, though you haven't addressed me directly. I really do not have the time for this, but the visceral nature of your hatred is just too fascinating :) 2008/7/22 Ranjith Thankappan : > koolie is the word We respect, but not the word IIT dear. Anyone is free to love or hate the IITs or anything else for any reason. I did not, and do not propose to say anything defending or opposing their position on the reservation issue, because (a) it is far too complex for someone of your disposition, (b) I have not studied it nearly as much as I needs to if I am to comment, and (c) I don't have the time. But please do not tell me that your use of the word koolie indicated your respect for them. Such a claim is ridiculous, and shows that you are being less than honest. No one is going to eat you on this list if you stand by some politically incorrect or really retrograde statement, as long as you can defend it with reason. > bz it s an exclusivist agraharam which unashamedly resist the "winds of new world" enter its brahmincla fotrss. > nothing will happen to this country if we shut down this agraharam.lol !! Whatever "agraharam" means, they are not about to be shut down, as far as I can see. So, you will probably have to live with a non-happening India for a while. In that, you have my sympathies  :)) Best, Tapas _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Wed Jul 23 16:42:14 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 04:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?4oCcSU5ESUEgVU5UT1VDSEVE4oCdIHdpbnMgU2ls?= =?utf-8?q?ver_Dhow_at_Zanzibar?= Message-ID: <454502.32437.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Unfortunately our entire political system and elections are inceasingly based on caste system even today. Prabhakar ----- Original Message ---- From: Ranjith Thankappan To: sarai Sent: Monday, 21 July, 2008 1:03:03 AM Subject: [Reader-list] “INDIA UNTOUCHED” wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar This s film evry Indian should watch. Can see funny creatures from varanasi unashamedly supporting brahmincal caste system and preaching casteism in 21st century. "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar International Film Festival 2008 July 20, 2008 Ahmedabad-based documentary filmmaker and human rights activist Stalin K. won the Silver Dhow Award for his film "India Untouched-Stories of A People Apart" at the recently Zanzibar International Film Festival in Tanzania [http://www.ziff.or.tz/winners.htm].India Untouched is said to be the most comprehensive look at the caste system prevalent in India and Stalin had spent four years traveling the length and breadth of the country to make this film. The film is produced by Drishti, a media and human rights organization and Navsarjan, a leading Dalit human rights organization. The festival, that was held in the island of Zanzibar, Tanzania, is an International Competition with 60 screenings of the best short films and feature-length documentaries from all over the world.  India Untouched was adjudged as the second best film of the festival. This is the fifth award for this film. It won the Best Documentary at the Indo American Arts Council Film Festival in New York in November 2007, the Best Film at the One Billion Eyes Film Festival in Chennai in August 2007,  the Golden Conch Award for the Best Documentary and the Best Film of the Festival Award at Mumbai International Film Festival in February 2008. It was also shown at the following festivals: DC Meets Delhi Film Festival, Washington DC, September 2007 CineCufa Festival, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, September 2007 Hamptons International Film Festival, New York, October 2007 Copenhagen International Documentary Film Festival, November 2007 Mini Indian Film Festival, Connecticut, November 2007 Mumbai International Film Festival, India, February 2008 Amnesty International Film Festival, Netherlands, March 2008 Tallahassee Film Festival, Florida, May 2008 For more information on the film: http://www.drishtimedia.org/news3.htm ________________________________ Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com.. Click here. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "grey youth movement" group.  To post to this group, send email to grey-youth-movement at googlegroups.com  To unsubscribe from this group, send email to grey-youth-movement-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com  For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/grey-youth-movement?hl=en-GB -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---       Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ From ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in Wed Jul 23 19:48:54 2008 From: ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in (Ranjith Thankappan) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:48:54 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?4oCcSU5ESUEgVU5UT1VDSEVE4oCdIHdpbnMgU2ls?= =?utf-8?q?ver_Dhow_at_Zanzibar?= Message-ID: <715527.59171.qm@web8702.mail.in.yahoo.com> not only that, look at our judiciary. it s bunch of arrogant brahmin/bania combination it s not at all representative. this s bz it follows the ideology of brahmincal caste system. ----- Original Message ---- From: Prabhakar Singh To: Ranjith Thankappan ; sarai Sent: Wednesday, 23 July, 2008 4:42:14 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] “INDIA UNTOUCHED” wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar Unfortunately our entire political system and elections are inceasingly based on caste system even today. Prabhakar ----- Original Message ---- From: Ranjith Thankappan To: sarai Sent: Monday, 21 July, 2008 1:03:03 AM Subject: [Reader-list] “INDIA UNTOUCHED” wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar This s film evry Indian should watch. Can see funny creatures from varanasi unashamedly supporting brahmincal caste system and preaching casteism in 21st century. "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar International Film Festival 2008 July 20, 2008 Ahmedabad-based documentary filmmaker and human rights activist Stalin K. won the Silver Dhow Award for his film "India Untouched-Stories of A People Apart" at the recently Zanzibar International Film Festival in Tanzania [http://www.ziff.or.tz/winners.htm].India Untouched is said to be the most comprehensive look at the caste system prevalent in India and Stalin had spent four years traveling the length and breadth of the country to make this film. The film is produced by Drishti, a media and human rights organization and Navsarjan, a leading Dalit human rights organization. The festival, that was held in the island of Zanzibar, Tanzania, is an International Competition with 60 screenings of the best short films and feature-length documentaries from all over the world.  India Untouched was adjudged as the second best film of the festival. This is the fifth award for this film. It won the Best Documentary at the Indo American Arts Council Film Festival in New York in November 2007, the Best Film at the One Billion Eyes Film Festival in Chennai in August 2007,  the Golden Conch Award for the Best Documentary and the Best Film of the Festival Award at Mumbai International Film Festival in February 2008. It was also shown at the following festivals: DC Meets Delhi Film Festival, Washington DC, September 2007 CineCufa Festival, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, September 2007 Hamptons International Film Festival, New York, October 2007 Copenhagen International Documentary Film Festival, November 2007 Mini Indian Film Festival, Connecticut, November 2007 Mumbai International Film Festival, India, February 2008 Amnesty International Film Festival, Netherlands, March 2008 Tallahassee Film Festival, Florida, May 2008 For more information on the film: http://www.drishtimedia.org/news3.htm ________________________________ Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com.. Click here. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "grey youth movement" group.  To post to this group, send email to grey-youth-movement at googlegroups.com  To unsubscribe from this group, send email to grey-youth-movement-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com  For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/grey-youth-movement?hl=en-GB -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---       Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>       Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from any browser, without download. Go to http://in.webmessenger.yahoo.com/ From taraprakash at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 20:42:07 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:12:07 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?4oCcSU5ESUEgVU5UT1VDSEVE4oCdIHdpbnMgU2ls?= =?utf-8?q?ver_Dhow_at_Zanzibar?= References: <715527.59171.qm@web8702.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <010601c8ecd6$895e3c30$7f3b7946@taraprakash> So time for Brahmin Dalit combination? Brahmin shankh bajaaega Haathi barhta jaaega??? Will the combination in the judiciary change too, if Maya becomes the PM? My answer is no. What is yours? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ranjith Thankappan" To: "Prabhakar Singh" Cc: "sarai" Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:18 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] “INDIA UNTOUCHED” wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar > not only that, look at our judiciary. it s bunch of arrogant brahmin/bania > combination > it s not at all representative. this s bz it follows the ideology of > brahmincal caste system. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Prabhakar Singh > To: Ranjith Thankappan ; sarai > > Sent: Wednesday, 23 July, 2008 4:42:14 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] “INDIA UNTOUCHED” wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar > > Unfortunately our entire political system and elections are inceasingly > based on caste system even today. > Prabhakar > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ranjith Thankappan > To: sarai > Sent: Monday, 21 July, 2008 1:03:03 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] “INDIA UNTOUCHED” wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar > > This s film evry Indian should watch. Can see funny creatures from > varanasi unashamedly supporting brahmincal caste system and preaching > casteism in 21st century. > > "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar International Film Festival > 2008 > July 20, 2008 > > Ahmedabad-based documentary filmmaker and human rights activist Stalin K. > won the Silver Dhow Award for his film "India Untouched-Stories of A > People Apart" at the recently Zanzibar International Film Festival in > Tanzania [http://www.ziff.or.tz/winners.htm].India Untouched is said to be > the most comprehensive look at the caste system prevalent in India and > Stalin had spent four years traveling the length and breadth of the > country to make this film. The film is produced by Drishti, a media and > human rights organization and Navsarjan, a leading Dalit human rights > organization. > > The festival, that was held in the island of Zanzibar, Tanzania, is an > International Competition with 60 screenings of the best short films and > feature-length documentaries from all over the world. India Untouched was > adjudged as the second best film of the festival. This is the fifth award > for this film. It won the Best Documentary at the Indo American Arts > Council Film Festival in New York in November 2007, the Best Film at the > One Billion Eyes Film Festival in Chennai in August 2007, the Golden Conch > Award for the Best Documentary and the Best Film of the Festival Award at > Mumbai International Film Festival in February 2008. It was also shown at > the following festivals: > > DC Meets Delhi Film Festival, Washington DC, September 2007 > CineCufa Festival, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, September 2007 > Hamptons International Film Festival, New York, October 2007 > Copenhagen International Documentary Film Festival, November 2007 > Mini Indian Film Festival, Connecticut, November 2007 > Mumbai International Film Festival, India, February 2008 > Amnesty International Film Festival, Netherlands, March 2008 > Tallahassee Film Festival, Florida, May 2008 > > For more information on the film: > http://www.drishtimedia.org/news3.htm > > > ________________________________ > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com.. Click > here. > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "grey youth movement" group. > To post to this group, send email to grey-youth-movement at googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > grey-youth-movement-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/grey-youth-movement?hl=en-GB > -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- > > > Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > > > > Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from any browser, without > download. Go to http://in.webmessenger.yahoo.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Wed Jul 23 20:46:06 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:46:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?4oCcSU5ESUEgVU5UT1VDSEVE4oCdIHdpbnMgU2ls?= =?utf-8?q?ver_Dhow_at_Zanzibar?= In-Reply-To: <010601c8ecd6$895e3c30$7f3b7946@taraprakash> References: <715527.59171.qm@web8702.mail.in.yahoo.com> <010601c8ecd6$895e3c30$7f3b7946@taraprakash> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807230816l16a53389jdf20ce56ba161a28@mail.gmail.com> > Brahmin shankh bajaaega > Haathi barhta jaaega??? It is "Haathi Dilli jayega" On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 8:42 PM, TaraPrakash wrote: > So time for Brahmin Dalit combination? > Brahmin shankh bajaaega > Haathi barhta jaaega??? > > Will the combination in the judiciary change too, if Maya becomes the PM? My > answer is no. What is yours? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ranjith Thankappan" > To: "Prabhakar Singh" > Cc: "sarai" > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:18 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar > > >> not only that, look at our judiciary. it s bunch of arrogant brahmin/bania >> combination >> it s not at all representative. this s bz it follows the ideology of >> brahmincal caste system. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Prabhakar Singh >> To: Ranjith Thankappan ; sarai >> >> Sent: Wednesday, 23 July, 2008 4:42:14 PM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar >> >> Unfortunately our entire political system and elections are inceasingly >> based on caste system even today. >> Prabhakar >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Ranjith Thankappan >> To: sarai >> Sent: Monday, 21 July, 2008 1:03:03 AM >> Subject: [Reader-list] "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar >> >> This s film evry Indian should watch. Can see funny creatures from >> varanasi unashamedly supporting brahmincal caste system and preaching >> casteism in 21st century. >> >> "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar International Film Festival >> 2008 >> July 20, 2008 >> >> Ahmedabad-based documentary filmmaker and human rights activist Stalin K. >> won the Silver Dhow Award for his film "India Untouched-Stories of A >> People Apart" at the recently Zanzibar International Film Festival in >> Tanzania [http://www.ziff.or.tz/winners.htm].India Untouched is said to be >> the most comprehensive look at the caste system prevalent in India and >> Stalin had spent four years traveling the length and breadth of the >> country to make this film. The film is produced by Drishti, a media and >> human rights organization and Navsarjan, a leading Dalit human rights >> organization. >> >> The festival, that was held in the island of Zanzibar, Tanzania, is an >> International Competition with 60 screenings of the best short films and >> feature-length documentaries from all over the world. India Untouched was >> adjudged as the second best film of the festival. This is the fifth award >> for this film. It won the Best Documentary at the Indo American Arts >> Council Film Festival in New York in November 2007, the Best Film at the >> One Billion Eyes Film Festival in Chennai in August 2007, the Golden Conch >> Award for the Best Documentary and the Best Film of the Festival Award at >> Mumbai International Film Festival in February 2008. It was also shown at >> the following festivals: >> >> DC Meets Delhi Film Festival, Washington DC, September 2007 >> CineCufa Festival, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, September 2007 >> Hamptons International Film Festival, New York, October 2007 >> Copenhagen International Documentary Film Festival, November 2007 >> Mini Indian Film Festival, Connecticut, November 2007 >> Mumbai International Film Festival, India, February 2008 >> Amnesty International Film Festival, Netherlands, March 2008 >> Tallahassee Film Festival, Florida, May 2008 >> >> For more information on the film: >> http://www.drishtimedia.org/news3.htm >> >> >> ________________________________ >> Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com.. Click >> here. >> --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "grey youth movement" group. >> To post to this group, send email to grey-youth-movement at googlegroups.com >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> grey-youth-movement-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/grey-youth-movement?hl=en-GB >> -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- >> >> >> Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to >> http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on >> http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ >> >> >> >> Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from any browser, without >> download. Go to http://in.webmessenger.yahoo.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ From mail at shivamvij.com Wed Jul 23 20:51:46 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:51:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?4oCcSU5ESUEgVU5UT1VDSEVE4oCdIHdpbnMgU2ls?= =?utf-8?q?ver_Dhow_at_Zanzibar?= In-Reply-To: <454502.32437.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <454502.32437.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807230821rd41e55dycf78696528d87c7e@mail.gmail.com> > Unfortunately our entire political system and elections > are inceasingly based on caste system even today. That is not unfortunate but fortunate. Politics reflects society, and if caste is important in politics it is a reflection of how important caste is for Indian society. It only reaffirms that caste is the basic unit of Idian society. Caste is your country. See Stalin's film to realise that. best shivam On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Prabhakar Singh wrote: > Unfortunately our entire political system and elections are inceasingly based on caste system even today. > Prabhakar > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ranjith Thankappan > To: sarai > Sent: Monday, 21 July, 2008 1:03:03 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar > > This s film evry Indian should watch. Can see funny creatures from varanasi unashamedly supporting brahmincal caste system and preaching casteism in 21st century. > > "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar International Film Festival 2008 > July 20, 2008 > > Ahmedabad-based documentary filmmaker and human rights activist Stalin K. won the Silver Dhow Award for his film "India Untouched-Stories of A People Apart" at the recently Zanzibar International Film Festival in Tanzania [http://www.ziff.or.tz/winners.htm].India Untouched is said to be the most comprehensive look at the caste system prevalent in India and Stalin had spent four years traveling the length and breadth of the country to make this film. The film is produced by Drishti, a media and human rights organization and Navsarjan, a leading Dalit human rights organization. > > The festival, that was held in the island of Zanzibar, Tanzania, is an International Competition with 60 screenings of the best short films and feature-length documentaries from all over the world. India Untouched was adjudged as the second best film of the festival. This is the fifth award for this film. It won the Best Documentary at the Indo American Arts Council Film Festival in New York in November 2007, the Best Film at the One Billion Eyes Film Festival in Chennai in August 2007, the Golden Conch Award for the Best Documentary and the Best Film of the Festival Award at Mumbai International Film Festival in February 2008. It was also shown at the following festivals: > > DC Meets Delhi Film Festival, Washington DC, September 2007 > CineCufa Festival, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, September 2007 > Hamptons International Film Festival, New York, October 2007 > Copenhagen International Documentary Film Festival, November 2007 > Mini Indian Film Festival, Connecticut, November 2007 > Mumbai International Film Festival, India, February 2008 > Amnesty International Film Festival, Netherlands, March 2008 > Tallahassee Film Festival, Florida, May 2008 > > For more information on the film: > http://www.drishtimedia.org/news3.htm > > > ________________________________ > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com.. Click here. > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "grey youth movement" group. > To post to this group, send email to grey-youth-movement at googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to grey-youth-movement-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/grey-youth-movement?hl=en-GB > -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- > > > Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 20:52:00 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:52:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Activist commits suicide over Amarnath land transfer issue In-Reply-To: <6353c690807230820m56365ff3wbe9cba7d35afbb76@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690807230820m56365ff3wbe9cba7d35afbb76@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690807230822n4c368920gfac2452d232f4204@mail.gmail.com> *Activist commits suicide over Amarnath land transfer issue* ** *Srinagar , July 23 (ANI):* A man in Jammu and Kashmir committed suicide today, to protest the cancellation of the land transfer to the Amarnath Shrine Board. Kuldip Dogra decided to give up his life to pressurise the State authorities to accept the demand for the return of land. The Jammu and Kashmir Government was forced to back down on its decision to transfer 100 acres (40.47 hectares) of forest land to Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board (SASB) due to a week-long protest. Staging protests in Jammu , activists of Amarnath Sangharsh (struggle) committee said if the authorities do not return the land more such sacrifices will be made. During the two-month-long pilgrimage, thousands of devotees from all over the country visit the cave shrine, situated at an altitude of 3,800 metres (12,700 feet), to pray to Lord Shiva. (ANI) From mail at shivamvij.com Wed Jul 23 20:52:36 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:52:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?4oCcSU5ESUEgVU5UT1VDSEVE4oCdIHdpbnMgU2ls?= =?utf-8?q?ver_Dhow_at_Zanzibar?= In-Reply-To: <010601c8ecd6$895e3c30$7f3b7946@taraprakash> References: <715527.59171.qm@web8702.mail.in.yahoo.com> <010601c8ecd6$895e3c30$7f3b7946@taraprakash> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807230822n36bcd773u70ec16d35d3a7a01@mail.gmail.com> Maya or no Maya, the judiciary's social composition needs to reflect India's. On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 8:42 PM, TaraPrakash wrote: > So time for Brahmin Dalit combination? > Brahmin shankh bajaaega > Haathi barhta jaaega??? > > Will the combination in the judiciary change too, if Maya becomes the PM? My > answer is no. What is yours? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ranjith Thankappan" > To: "Prabhakar Singh" > Cc: "sarai" > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:18 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar > > >> not only that, look at our judiciary. it s bunch of arrogant brahmin/bania >> combination >> it s not at all representative. this s bz it follows the ideology of >> brahmincal caste system. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Prabhakar Singh >> To: Ranjith Thankappan ; sarai >> >> Sent: Wednesday, 23 July, 2008 4:42:14 PM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar >> >> Unfortunately our entire political system and elections are inceasingly >> based on caste system even today. >> Prabhakar >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Ranjith Thankappan >> To: sarai >> Sent: Monday, 21 July, 2008 1:03:03 AM >> Subject: [Reader-list] "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar >> >> This s film evry Indian should watch. Can see funny creatures from >> varanasi unashamedly supporting brahmincal caste system and preaching >> casteism in 21st century. >> >> "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar International Film Festival >> 2008 >> July 20, 2008 >> >> Ahmedabad-based documentary filmmaker and human rights activist Stalin K. >> won the Silver Dhow Award for his film "India Untouched-Stories of A >> People Apart" at the recently Zanzibar International Film Festival in >> Tanzania [http://www.ziff.or.tz/winners.htm].India Untouched is said to be >> the most comprehensive look at the caste system prevalent in India and >> Stalin had spent four years traveling the length and breadth of the >> country to make this film. The film is produced by Drishti, a media and >> human rights organization and Navsarjan, a leading Dalit human rights >> organization. >> >> The festival, that was held in the island of Zanzibar, Tanzania, is an >> International Competition with 60 screenings of the best short films and >> feature-length documentaries from all over the world. India Untouched was >> adjudged as the second best film of the festival. This is the fifth award >> for this film. It won the Best Documentary at the Indo American Arts >> Council Film Festival in New York in November 2007, the Best Film at the >> One Billion Eyes Film Festival in Chennai in August 2007, the Golden Conch >> Award for the Best Documentary and the Best Film of the Festival Award at >> Mumbai International Film Festival in February 2008. It was also shown at >> the following festivals: >> >> DC Meets Delhi Film Festival, Washington DC, September 2007 >> CineCufa Festival, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, September 2007 >> Hamptons International Film Festival, New York, October 2007 >> Copenhagen International Documentary Film Festival, November 2007 >> Mini Indian Film Festival, Connecticut, November 2007 >> Mumbai International Film Festival, India, February 2008 >> Amnesty International Film Festival, Netherlands, March 2008 >> Tallahassee Film Festival, Florida, May 2008 >> >> For more information on the film: >> http://www.drishtimedia.org/news3.htm >> >> >> ________________________________ >> Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com.. Click >> here. >> --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "grey youth movement" group. >> To post to this group, send email to grey-youth-movement at googlegroups.com >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> grey-youth-movement-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/grey-youth-movement?hl=en-GB >> -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- >> >> >> Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to >> http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on >> http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ >> >> >> >> Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from any browser, without >> download. Go to http://in.webmessenger.yahoo.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ From invite+off26yoy at facebookmail.com Wed Jul 23 21:12:25 2008 From: invite+off26yoy at facebookmail.com (Ratnesh Kumar Shukla) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:42:25 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Check out my Facebook profile Message-ID: <3e80bf39e64c69e0b2b1a5be64d63110@www.facebook.com> I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own profile. Thanks, Ratnesh Here's the link: http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=1356686149&k=YXGU5V5XQYYMXCL1TC2TU&r&v=2 ___________________ This e-mail may contain promotional materials. If you do not wish to receive future commercial mailings from Facebook, please click on the link below. Facebook's offices are located at 156 University Ave., Palo Alto, CA 94301. http://www.facebook.com/o.php?u=718051484&k=cc85c8 From uddipana at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 10:52:29 2008 From: uddipana at gmail.com (Uddipana Goswami) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:52:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] insurgency and literature Message-ID: dear all, please see the latest issue of 'muse india' online at http://www.museindia.com/ focussing on the theme of influence of insurgency on assamese literature. do leave your comments, best uddipana -- Uddipana Goswami www.jajabori-mon.blogspot.com From press at tank.tv Tue Jul 22 20:32:18 2008 From: press at tank.tv (tank.tv press) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:02:18 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] tank.tv screenings at Tate Modern Friday 19 September - Sunday 21 September 2008 Message-ID: <78c84f090807220802j47f52882w806e737512ca8d96@mail.gmail.com> *www.tank.tv** Screenings at Tate Modern * *Friday 19 September – Sunday 21 September 2008* *Following the success of the last sell out show, www.tank.tv has once again teamed up with Tate Modern to bring you a weekend of exciting screenings curated by some of the world's foremost curators.* Ken Jacobs, Return to the Scene of the Crime, Friday 19 September 2008, 19.00 The weekend begins with experimental filmmaker Ken Jacobs' *Return to the Scene of the Crime* The heartwarming story of a boy who didn't know it's wrong to steal. Running off with the pig seemed like a good idea at the time.' In a contemporary riff on one of his landmark works Ken Jacobs uses new technology to both interrogate and arouse a theatrical tableau, shot in 1905, based on Hogarth's Southwark Fair. *The Young and Evil, Curated by Stuart Comer, Saturday 20 September 2008, 19.00* The digital glow of the internet has largely replaced the dark space of the cinema as the site where furtive desires are first expressed and encountered on flickering screens. The Young and Evil is a collection of films chosen by artists including Emily Roysdon, Drew Daniel and Daria Martin, which reconsider the historical contours and shifting relationships of sex and community in the digital age. This screening coincides with the current online exhibition at www.tank.tv in which the artists were invited to select one contemporary video under the same theme. *She doesn't think so but she's dressed for the h-bomb, Curated by Negar Azimi for tank.tv, Sunday 21 September 2008, 15.00* The current moment is one marked by an abundance of mega-narratives, sweeping arm gestures, climactic dips, and ascents. How we talk about the present is almost always wrapped up in some version of the past. In an afternoon screening 'She doesn't think so but she's dressed for the h-bomb' explores the weight of diverse histories in defining the current moment - whether manifest in the form of national myth, ritual, architecture or pop culture. Including works by Ziad Antar, Yael Bartana and The Atlas Group. The Whole World, Curated by Ian White for tank.tv, Sunday 21 September 2008, 17.00 Online The Whole World is an ongoing open archive to which anyone can contribute - an uncensored list of lists inaugurated by considering it as a formal and political device. Originally selected and submitted works are reorganized and augmented into this single programme. Works by Uriel Orlow, Michael Robinson, Hollis Frampton are screened alongside many others to create an extraordinary list of lists, of the world as we know it – the whole world. For more information and to purchase tickets go to http://www.tate.org.uk/modern/eventseducation/film/tank.tv.htm *www.tank.tv* www.tate.org.uk -- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - tank.tv 2nd Floor Princess House 50 - 60 Eastcastle Street London W1W 8EA press at tank.tv T: +44 (0)207323 3475 F: +44 (0)207631 4280 http://www.tank.tv - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Now showing: 'Vertrautes Terrain' www.tank.tv in collaboration with the ZKM 21st May - 30th June 2008 Fresh Moves - Out now! Order your copy on www.tank.tv "A significant archive of creative practices in the early years of twenty-first century England" Tyler Coburn, Tomorrow Unlimited --- tank.tv is an inspirational showcase for innovative work in film and video. Dedicated to exhibiting and promoting emerging and established international artists, www.tank.tv acts as a major online gallery and archive for video art. A platform for contemporary moving images. From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Jul 15 15:41:50 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:41:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar In-Reply-To: References: <157161.55226.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Radhikarajen Of course we should not have to see body bags coming back from Iraq. Of course we should not be pulled by ruses, or by bullying into the disaster of a close military alliance with the United States, of course, at all costs, our lives should not be mortgaged at the altar of the militarist agendas of the big powers. But, how does holding on to Nuclear Weapons help attain any of these objectives? Renouncing nuclear weapons, signing the test ban and non proliferation treaties, decommissioning nuclear arenals, is on the other hand, sure to win a great deal more room for autonomy, and for not having to be entangled in the machinations of the US and other big powers (Russia, China, France, UK) hope you see and understand, Shuddha On 15-Jul-08, at 3:32 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > How was it that australian PM seen by citizens of that nation > before being voted out after the body bags started coming in from > Iraq. ? > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 1:47 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar > To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> Dear Radhikarajen >> >> Do I "want the one billion citizens see their PM as lapdog of >> American president.?" ? >> >> No I do not. >> >> Again, you are not only missing the point but seem to not know >> well the issues that you are talking about. >> >> Let me repeat - Going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand- >> alone issues and not connected with or to be clubbed with any >> "deal with the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA and NSG, they >> are to be thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National >> Interest". >> >> Your other point now. Yes "by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear >> apartheid will come >> to an end" to a large degree. It will defenitely be much better >> for India. There is no 'feel' factor or 'speculation' in that >> contention. It is factual. >> >> In case you are tempted to refer to it, that there is hypocrisy in >> the 'nuclearisation ethics' of the 'nuclear' countries is also >> well known and accepted as fact. >> >> It might (or might not be) pertinent to mention here that Vajpayee >> publicly declared that India was willing to join the CTBT regime >> without (there is no evidence to the contrary) the "nuclear >> apartheid" ending in totality. In many ways that was acceptance of >> and submission to not only the 'nuclear apartheid' but also the >> hypocrisy in the 'nuclearisation ethics' of the 'nuclear' >> countries. >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> --- On Tue, 7/15/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net >> wrote: >> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 12:35 PM >> >> Kshemendra, >> >> lecturing is not debating or exchane of views, we have been >> exchanging our >> thoughts, if you fell for lecturing it is your choice, not mine. >> >> Tell me, please , by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear >> apartheid will come >> to an end, is the feel and speculation, but at what cost. ? Do you >> want the one >> billion citizens see their PM as lapdog of American president.? >> >> Regards. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Kshmendra Kaul >> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:52 pm >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> >>> Dear Radhikarajen >>> >>> You are lecturing me on everything else but not addressing the >>> simpler issues that would put things in perspective with regards >>> to approaches to IAEA and subsequently the NSG. >>> >>> I repeat, going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand- >> alone >>> issues and not connected with or to be clubbed with any "deal >> with >>> the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA and NSG, they are to be >>> thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National Interest". >>> >>> The (relative) HONESTY or DISHONESTY of Manmohan Singh is also >>> inconsequential to the much more important issue of negotiations >>> with IAEA and NSG being satisfactorily concluded. >>> >>> Kshmendra >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net >> >>> wrote: >>> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >>> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >>> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >>> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 4:05 PM >>> >>> Kshemendra, >>> >>> yes, questions have questions in them, agreeable thoughts, how >>> is it that >>> these questions of nuclear deal were shrouded in darkness of >>> classified lines >>> for well over two years keeping the citizens in dark. ? >>> >>> Why suddenly now advertisements in media about the good deal >> that >>> our Mr. >>> Honest is keen about the deal. ? >>> >>> What prevented Mr. Honest to have a honest discussion of the >>> deal in media >>> and parliament instead of blanket answers that the deal is good, >>> is in the >>> national interest.? >>> >>> In any democracy, the classified documents are put to open >>> domain after a >>> period of certain number of years. they are de-classified for >> the >>> citizens to >>> know about the ommissions and commissions of the decision making >>> process in >>> democratic rule of that nation. India is perhaps one of the very >>> few democratic >>> countries which has not de-classified its classified documents >>> till date even >>> after being a free nation. >>> >>> In such a situation, the policy makers, the executors of the >>> policies and >>> the citizens who have a right to know the procedure of rule of >>> laws are >>> manipulating the records to suit their selfish interests, ? >>> >>> Even in UK and USA the documents are classified once they are >>> archived after >>> thirty years, that is documents upto 1978 are declassified that, >>> the citizens >>> know the misadventure or the good acts of babus, politicians and >>> all. Such is >>> the power of the citizens, that future babus and politicians >> will >>> be well >>> informed of the mistakes of the past. >>> >>> Do we have this in place. ? >>> >>> Regards. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Kshmendra Kaul >>> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 2:25 pm >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >>> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> =3E >>>> Dear Radhikarajen >>>> >>>> Questions have a questioning in them so they cannot be >> Utopian. >>> If >>>> my answers sounded Utopian to you, then I would disagree with >>> you >>>> that they are so. >>>> >>>> You seemed to have missed the point (completely) in my >> questions >>>> and my answers: >>>> >>>> 1. Going through the IAEA and NSG routines does not in any way >>>> whatsoever mean that you have entered into the (legally >>>> enforceable) deal with the USA. Do you disagree? >>>> >>>> 2. Successfully going through the IAEA and NSG routines leaves >>>> India better placed to enter into a deal or deals with any >>> country >>>> of (nuclear) interest, an access which is currently blocked. >> USA >>>> need not be one such country that India "deals' with. Do >> you >>> disagree? >>>> >>>> Whether USA is an 'angelic' entity or a 'satanic' one >> does >>> not >>>> come into the picture. >>>> >>>> >>>> Kshmendra >>>> >>>> >>>> --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net >>> >>>> wrote: >>>> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >>>> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >>>> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >>>> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 12:38 PM >>>> >>>> Kshemendra, >>>> >>>> your questions are basically utopian and answers given by you >>>> are only >>>> theoratical and not practical, after the citizens of the world >>>> have seen how if >>>> you are with America, you have to be ready to recieve body >> bags >>>> for the >>>> misadventure of America for its leaders folly in Afghanistan >>> and >>>> Iraq.Australian PM Howard was seen by his citizens as lapdog >> of >>>> Bush, do you need a >>>> hairy happy lapdog of our PM on the lap of american president.? >>>> >>>> Regards. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Kshmendra Kaul >>>> Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:07 pm >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >>>> To: reader-list at sarai.net >>>> >>>>> Dear PK >>>>> >>>>> "Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the >>> Imperialism." >>>>> That sounds very very very "holier than thou" and >> pompous. >>>>> >>>>> Questions for you: >>>>> >>>>> 1. Does IAEA Agreement automatically place India in your >>> feared >>>>> "unholy matrimomy" (my words) with the USA? My answer >> is >>> NO. >>>> What >>>>> is yours? >>>>> >>>>> 2. Does successful negotiation with the NSG automatically >>> place >>>>> India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" with the USA? >> My >>> answer >>>> is >>>>> NO. What is yours? >>>>> >>>>> 3. Let us imagine that there is no USA, wouldn't India still >> >>>> have >>>>> to go the IAEA and NSG route if it wants to freed of current >>>>> (nuclear) restrictions on it? My answer is YES. What is yours? >>>>> >>>>> 4. Does help received from the USA with the IAEA and NSG >> place >>>>> India under any Legal obligation to (nuclear) deal >> thereafter >>>> only >>>>> or primarily with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours? >>>>> >>>>> Kshmendra >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- On Sat, 7/12/08, prakash ray >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> From: prakash ray >>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar >>>>> To: reader-list at sarai.net >>>>> Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 8:52 PM >>>>> >>>>> Dear all, >>>>> >>>>> It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' >> ones >>> (read >>>>> Shuddha, >>>>> Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the >>> current >>>>> debate over >>>>> the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, >> have >>>>> 'always'attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do >> not >>>> want >>>>> to blame them for >>>>> their political positions, but I would accuse them for their >>>>> shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive >>>>> contribution or >>>>> position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves >>> 'liberated' >>>> since >>>>> we >>>>> write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that >>> our >>>>> 'falsesense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our >>> handsome >>>>> salaries and >>>>> convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that >> a >>>>> sin. However, >>>>> I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all' >>> approach. >>>>> >>>>> Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not >>>>> articulate their >>>>> position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear >> sacredness. >>>>> Their belief >>>>> of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based >>> on >>>> a >>>>> reportappeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that >> they >>>>> believe what the >>>>> TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or >>>> economic >>>>> policiesetc. Shivam could have researched on the matter >> since >>> he >>>>> is a reporter >>>>> himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support >>>> extended >>>>> by the >>>>> Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting >>>>> interviewed in >>>>> the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every >>>>> newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes >>> interviews >>>>> of the >>>>> politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of >> the >>>>> Salwa Judum >>>>> infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at >>> regular >>>>> intervention >>>>> and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R >>>>> Narayanan on >>>>> the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in >> place >>> of the >>>>> customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, >> the >>>>> right-wingers >>>>> get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about >> the >>>> moderator >>>>> or >>>>> Shuddha himself? >>>>> >>>>> I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to >> the >>> US >>>>> administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and >>>>> continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I >> do >>>> not >>>>> find any >>>>> fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact >>>> that >>>>> the US and >>>>> Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do >>> not >>>>> think the >>>>> readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault >> if >>>>> someone sees >>>>> the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I >>>> consider the >>>>> nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on >>> the >>>>> poor and >>>>> less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation >>>>> against the >>>>> policies and politics of the US. >>>>> >>>>> Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism. >>>>> >>>>> Let me ask some simple questions: >>>>> >>>>> Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the >>> Congress?> > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr >> Singh >>> could go >>>>> ahead with >>>>> the Deal? >>>>> Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit >>> in >>>>> elections if >>>>> the Govt falls? >>>>> Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left >> oppose >>> or >>>>> supporteverything only on the basis of the position taken by >>> the >>>> BJP?> Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology >> of >>>> the >>>>> 'clash of >>>>> civilizations'? >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Prakash >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>> with >>>>> subscribe in >>>>> the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>>>> list >>>>> List archive: >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>> with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>>>> list >>>>> List archive: >> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>> with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>>> list >>>> List archive: >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>> list >>> List archive: >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Jul 24 06:19:30 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:49:30 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?4oCcSU5ESUEgVU5UT1VDSEVE4oCdIHdpbnMgU2ls?= =?utf-8?q?ver_Dhow_at_Zanzibar?= References: <715527.59171.qm@web8702.mail.in.yahoo.com> <010601c8ecd6$895e3c30$7f3b7946@taraprakash> <9c06aab30807230816l16a53389jdf20ce56ba161a28@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00f101c8ed27$23f25290$7f3b7946@taraprakash> Is this your prediction or corrected version of the slogan? The slogan I quoted was being used at the time of the UP elections, may be they changed it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" To: "TaraPrakash" Cc: "Ranjith Thankappan" ; "Prabhakar Singh" ; "sarai" Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 11:16 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] “INDIA UNTOUCHED” wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar >> Brahmin shankh bajaaega >> Haathi barhta jaaega??? > > It is "Haathi Dilli jayega" > > On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 8:42 PM, TaraPrakash > wrote: >> So time for Brahmin Dalit combination? >> Brahmin shankh bajaaega >> Haathi barhta jaaega??? >> >> Will the combination in the judiciary change too, if Maya becomes the PM? >> My >> answer is no. What is yours? >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ranjith Thankappan" >> To: "Prabhakar Singh" >> Cc: "sarai" >> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:18 AM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar >> >> >>> not only that, look at our judiciary. it s bunch of arrogant >>> brahmin/bania >>> combination >>> it s not at all representative. this s bz it follows the ideology of >>> brahmincal caste system. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: Prabhakar Singh >>> To: Ranjith Thankappan ; sarai >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, 23 July, 2008 4:42:14 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at >>> Zanzibar >>> >>> Unfortunately our entire political system and elections are inceasingly >>> based on caste system even today. >>> Prabhakar >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: Ranjith Thankappan >>> To: sarai >>> Sent: Monday, 21 July, 2008 1:03:03 AM >>> Subject: [Reader-list] "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar >>> >>> This s film evry Indian should watch. Can see funny creatures from >>> varanasi unashamedly supporting brahmincal caste system and preaching >>> casteism in 21st century. >>> >>> "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar International Film >>> Festival >>> 2008 >>> July 20, 2008 >>> >>> Ahmedabad-based documentary filmmaker and human rights activist Stalin >>> K. >>> won the Silver Dhow Award for his film "India Untouched-Stories of A >>> People Apart" at the recently Zanzibar International Film Festival in >>> Tanzania [http://www.ziff.or.tz/winners.htm].India Untouched is said to >>> be >>> the most comprehensive look at the caste system prevalent in India and >>> Stalin had spent four years traveling the length and breadth of the >>> country to make this film. The film is produced by Drishti, a media and >>> human rights organization and Navsarjan, a leading Dalit human rights >>> organization. >>> >>> The festival, that was held in the island of Zanzibar, Tanzania, is an >>> International Competition with 60 screenings of the best short films and >>> feature-length documentaries from all over the world. India Untouched >>> was >>> adjudged as the second best film of the festival. This is the fifth >>> award >>> for this film. It won the Best Documentary at the Indo American Arts >>> Council Film Festival in New York in November 2007, the Best Film at the >>> One Billion Eyes Film Festival in Chennai in August 2007, the Golden >>> Conch >>> Award for the Best Documentary and the Best Film of the Festival Award >>> at >>> Mumbai International Film Festival in February 2008. It was also shown >>> at >>> the following festivals: >>> >>> DC Meets Delhi Film Festival, Washington DC, September 2007 >>> CineCufa Festival, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, September 2007 >>> Hamptons International Film Festival, New York, October 2007 >>> Copenhagen International Documentary Film Festival, November 2007 >>> Mini Indian Film Festival, Connecticut, November 2007 >>> Mumbai International Film Festival, India, February 2008 >>> Amnesty International Film Festival, Netherlands, March 2008 >>> Tallahassee Film Festival, Florida, May 2008 >>> >>> For more information on the film: >>> http://www.drishtimedia.org/news3.htm >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com.. Click >>> here. >>> --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups >>> "grey youth movement" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to >>> grey-youth-movement at googlegroups.com >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> grey-youth-movement-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/grey-youth-movement?hl=en-GB >>> -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- >>> >>> >>> Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to >>> http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on >>> http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ >>> >>> >>> >>> Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from any browser, without >>> download. Go to http://in.webmessenger.yahoo.com/ >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Jul 24 09:04:47 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:04:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Activist commits suicide over Amarnath land transfer issue In-Reply-To: <6353c690807230822n4c368920gfac2452d232f4204@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690807230820m56365ff3wbe9cba7d35afbb76@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690807230822n4c368920gfac2452d232f4204@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70807232034y60e310f9n95c081e83a578463@mail.gmail.com> i am quite interested in suicides, but only if they are triggered by some psychological reasons , a normal suicide is triggered even by a simple failure in the school exams...which too is very important... a truly poltical person will go for a sucide only if the casue is universal, but this kuldeep dogra (if one believes the news item ) seems certainly a naive or a weakling .... and if the hindutva world thinks kuldeep dogra a truly political hero and a real shiva devotee then they should construct a monument in his name and may be declare him a saint event. i remember that upper caste mr. Goswami who set himself ablaze for Mandal issue, proved that his action was meaningless, and he was not a political minded person, ....some personal insecurity can cause the victim to go for such an extreme, ....in fact such minds are waiting for a spark, and that can come from any quarter...so imagine how many such suicides would have happened if the land was actually transfered. to shrine board in the valley..... Lord Shiva is happy in his heaven, all is well with the world.... now why on earth some richy rich Amarnath Srine Board member never thought about suicide.... why a noted name in Hindutva world does not think about jumping from some mountain, why it always an unknown face who decides to end his life. this applies to all religions, and that why only some young minds are won over by murderous words and pushes the victim to this extreme....sad....i have sympathy for this young man, but what a misguided end. society is a strange set of cards, and we will never know what the other is holding nearer to her or his heart.... it is usually the poverty which pushes a family to suicide, but even Marx noted in his personal diaries that casue of 'misery' sometimes can be other than poverty,..... of course the times were such that this kind of thought could not crept into his 'manifesto', but this has been extensively debated later on... i am yet to grasp the meaning of suicide.... and that is what made me to write about it in the first place with love is On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 8:52 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > *Activist commits suicide over Amarnath land transfer issue* > ** > *Srinagar , July 23 (ANI):* A man in Jammu and Kashmir committed suicide > today, to protest the cancellation of the land transfer to the Amarnath > Shrine Board. > > Kuldip Dogra decided to give up his life to pressurise the State authorities > to accept the demand for the return of land. > > The Jammu and Kashmir Government was forced to back down on its decision to > transfer 100 acres (40.47 hectares) of forest land to Shri Amarnathji Shrine > Board (SASB) due to a week-long protest. > > Staging protests in Jammu , activists of Amarnath Sangharsh (struggle) > committee said if the authorities do not return the land more such > sacrifices will be made. > > During the two-month-long pilgrimage, thousands of devotees from all over > the country visit the cave shrine, situated at an altitude of 3,800 metres > (12,700 feet), to pray to Lord Shiva. (ANI) > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Jul 24 12:56:49 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:26:49 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=93INDIA_UNTOUCHED=94_wins_Silver_?= =?windows-1252?q?Dhow_at_Zanzibar?= In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30807230822n36bcd773u70ec16d35d3a7a01@mail.gmail.com> References: <715527.59171.qm@web8702.mail.in.yahoo.com> <010601c8ecd6$895e3c30$7f3b7946@taraprakash> <9c06aab30807230822n36bcd773u70ec16d35d3a7a01@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: If any individual is imagining that the caste system is prevalent in only hindu way of life, such individual is living in hallucination and rich imaginary social life, as such individual has only got to see around as the other faith followers are also equally living in caste conundrum in India, as can be seen, christians demanding dalit quota for dalit christians, muslims have prevalent set of "rules" where converts if are from "lower " castes , find it difficult to marry off their progeny. Only rich from any faith have no castes when in practice of social life. In democratic life, when good governance discriminates citizens in rules of democratic laws, in delivery of good governance to the society, and citizens, this reflects in social discrimination of haves and have nots. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 8:54 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] “INDIA UNTOUCHED” wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar To: TaraPrakash Cc: sarai , Ranjith Thankappan > Maya or no Maya, the judiciary's social composition needs to > reflect India's. > > On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 8:42 PM, TaraPrakash > wrote: > > So time for Brahmin Dalit combination? > > Brahmin shankh bajaaega > > Haathi barhta jaaega??? > > > > Will the combination in the judiciary change too, if Maya > becomes the PM? My > > answer is no. What is yours? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ranjith Thankappan" > > To: "Prabhakar Singh" > > Cc: "sarai" > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:18 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at > Zanzibar> > > > >> not only that, look at our judiciary. it s bunch of arrogant > brahmin/bania>> combination > >> it s not at all representative. this s bz it follows the > ideology of > >> brahmincal caste system. > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ---- > >> From: Prabhakar Singh > >> To: Ranjith Thankappan ; sarai > >> > >> Sent: Wednesday, 23 July, 2008 4:42:14 PM > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow > at Zanzibar > >> > >> Unfortunately our entire political system and elections are > inceasingly>> based on caste system even today. > >> Prabhakar > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ---- > >> From: Ranjith Thankappan > >> To: sarai > >> Sent: Monday, 21 July, 2008 1:03:03 AM > >> Subject: [Reader-list] "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at > Zanzibar>> > >> This s film evry Indian should watch. Can see funny creatures from > >> varanasi unashamedly supporting brahmincal caste system and > preaching>> casteism in 21st century. > >> > >> "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar International > Film Festival > >> 2008 > >> July 20, 2008 > >> > >> Ahmedabad-based documentary filmmaker and human rights activist > Stalin K. > >> won the Silver Dhow Award for his film "India Untouched-Stories > of A > >> People Apart" at the recently Zanzibar International Film > Festival in > >> Tanzania [http://www.ziff.or.tz/winners.htm].India Untouched is > said to be > >> the most comprehensive look at the caste system prevalent in > India and > >> Stalin had spent four years traveling the length and breadth of the > >> country to make this film. The film is produced by Drishti, a > media and > >> human rights organization and Navsarjan, a leading Dalit human > rights>> organization. > >> > >> The festival, that was held in the island of Zanzibar, > Tanzania, is an > >> International Competition with 60 screenings of the best short > films and > >> feature-length documentaries from all over the world. India > Untouched was > >> adjudged as the second best film of the festival. This is the > fifth award > >> for this film. It won the Best Documentary at the Indo American > Arts>> Council Film Festival in New York in November 2007, the > Best Film at the > >> One Billion Eyes Film Festival in Chennai in August 2007, the > Golden Conch > >> Award for the Best Documentary and the Best Film of the > Festival Award at > >> Mumbai International Film Festival in February 2008. It was > also shown at > >> the following festivals: > >> > >> DC Meets Delhi Film Festival, Washington DC, September 2007 > >> CineCufa Festival, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, September 2007 > >> Hamptons International Film Festival, New York, October 2007 > >> Copenhagen International Documentary Film Festival, November 2007 > >> Mini Indian Film Festival, Connecticut, November 2007 > >> Mumbai International Film Festival, India, February 2008 > >> Amnesty International Film Festival, Netherlands, March 2008 > >> Tallahassee Film Festival, Florida, May 2008 > >> > >> For more information on the film: > >> http://www.drishtimedia.org/news3.htm > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or > yourname at rocketmail.com.. Click > >> here. > >> --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--= ~----~ > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the > Google Groups > >> "grey youth movement" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to grey-youth- > movement at googlegroups.com>> To unsubscribe from this group, send > email to > >> grey-youth-movement-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/grey-youth-movement?hl=en-GB > >> -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- > >> > >> > >> Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to > >> http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >> > >> > >> Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on > >> http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools- > 08.html/>> > >> > >> > >> Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from any browser, > without>> download. Go to http://in.webmessenger.yahoo.com/ > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > -- > /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From aman.am at gmail.com Thu Jul 24 13:26:04 2008 From: aman.am at gmail.com (Aman Sethi) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:26:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On Suicide Message-ID: <995a19920807240056y7bcee7e6qbb68ff2768ceff0e@mail.gmail.com> I was quite surprised by the suicide of RSS sanghi Kuldeep Kumar as well; it probably stems from my failure to understand the "situation on the ground" in J&K. While Aditya post identifies him as "Kuldeep Dogra" - this morning's Indian Express refers to him as "Kuldeep Kumar". I assume he is Kuldeep Kumar Dogra. ( It is based on this report that I describe him as an RSS member. The news report quotes one of Dogra/Kumar's relatives as saying "he was a staunch RSS supporter"). The land issue doesn't seem like the sort of thing to trigger off such a dire step; but neither does the fear of failing at a CBSE exam - a suicide trigger that claims several young lives every year. Could anyone enlighten me on the cultural history of the practice? Is it related in any way to an idea of the after life, or the notion of heaven? Of course one has heard of the highly ritualised and stylised harakiri practice of Japan; and other practices like sati (which is not strictly suicide - or is it?) I remember reading that Kerala - India's own answer to Scandinavian human development indices - has the highest suicide rate in the country. A rediff article - http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/apr/15spec.htm (article reproduced below) - claims that, In kerala, some 32 people commit suicide every day! Of total Indian suicides, one half to three quarters are women; compared to a global average suggests that men are three times more likely to kill themselves. This again raises a number of disturbing questions. Other information on suicide suggests that anti-depressants like Prozac might actually encourage suicide - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/758763.stm . My grandfather once told me a relative of his who, as a young man, witnessed the partition riots as a child; walked home and died of trauma - could this be termed suicide - a point where - disturbed by a world out of control - decides to abdicate. Best a. On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:04 AM, inder salim wrote: > > i am quite interested in suicides, but only if they are triggered by > some psychological reasons > , a normal suicide is triggered even by a simple failure in the > school exams...which too is very important... > > a truly poltical person will go for a sucide only if the casue is > universal, but this kuldeep dogra (if one believes the news item ) > seems certainly a naive or a weakling .... and if the hindutva world > thinks kuldeep dogra a truly political hero and a real shiva devotee > then they should construct a monument in his name and may be declare > him a saint event. i remember that upper caste mr. Goswami who set > himself ablaze for Mandal issue, proved that his action was > meaningless, and he was not a political minded person, ....some > personal insecurity can cause the victim to go for such an extreme, > ....in fact such minds are waiting for a spark, and that can come from > any quarter...so imagine how many such suicides would have happened if > the land was actually transfered. to shrine board in the valley..... > Lord Shiva is happy in his heaven, all is well with the world.... > > now why on earth some richy rich Amarnath Srine Board member never > thought about suicide.... why a noted name in Hindutva world does not > think about jumping from some mountain, why it always an unknown face > who decides to end his life. > > this applies to all religions, and that why only some young minds are > won over by murderous words and pushes the victim to this > extreme....sad....i have sympathy for this young man, but what a > misguided end. > > society is a strange set of cards, and we will never know what the > other is holding nearer to her or his heart.... it is usually the > poverty which pushes a family to suicide, but even Marx noted in his > personal diaries that casue of 'misery' sometimes can be other than > poverty,..... of course the times were such that this kind of thought > could not crept into his 'manifesto', but this has been extensively > debated later on... > > i am yet to grasp the meaning of suicide.... and that is what made me > to write about it in the first place > > with love > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 8:52 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > > > *Activist commits suicide over Amarnath land transfer issue* > > ** > > *Srinagar , July 23 (ANI):* A man in Jammu and Kashmir committed suicide > > today, to protest the cancellation of the land transfer to the Amarnath > > Shrine Board. > > > > Kuldip Dogra decided to give up his life to pressurise the State authorities > > to accept the demand for the return of land. > > > > The Jammu and Kashmir Government was forced to back down on its decision to > > transfer 100 acres (40.47 hectares) of forest land to Shri Amarnathji Shrine > > Board (SASB) due to a week-long protest. > > > > Staging protests in Jammu , activists of Amarnath Sangharsh (struggle) > > committee said if the authorities do not return the land more such > > sacrifices will be made. > > > > During the two-month-long pilgrimage, thousands of devotees from all over > > the country visit the cave shrine, situated at an altitude of 3,800 metres > > (12,700 feet), to pray to Lord Shiva. (ANI) > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Jul 24 13:45:58 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:15:58 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=93INDIA_UNTOUCHED=94_wins_Silver_?= =?windows-1252?q?Dhow_at_Zanzibar?= In-Reply-To: <715527.59171.qm@web8702.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <715527.59171.qm@web8702.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It is amusing to see the venomous hate that is prevalent in society for "brahman", is it ignorance or is it deliberate to a commune which is less than three percent of the total population, has only persued knowledge inspite of demanding social conditions, being subjected to ridicule for the inability of the community to take lati in their hands. ? Brahmin as seen by society in general, by OBCs and dalits in particular is always oppressed class in the social life, oppressed always by ruling fuedal lords, kshatriyas who use the brahmin shield to exploit the dalits, but the blame goes to "brahmins". ? Why, because brahmins are not fighters with strong tactics of latis, but jats , vanniyars, thevars, reddys and gowdas are paleyagars of yester years who ruled the kingdoms, with "manusmrithi" written by a kshatriya, applicable to his times of rule.! Worst thing is brahmin today has to go for general category inspite of good achievements for his only fault that he is born in brahmin parents as if the vagina of the ladies are classified as caste vaginas. ? In democratic rule the OTHER BACKWARD CASTES, have always been in rule, being fuedal lords and strong numerical strength by organised latis, brahmins have been in poverty, living a austere life, but giving full importance to education of their progeny, once educated free India saw the brain drain only because of this bad governance of discrimination, where OBCs ate into the reservation and quotas, for better living conditions the educated brahmins went out to greener pastures as they did not have the latis to enforce their rights as the gujjars or gowdas and jats and reddys or a kamma do.! Dalits even after sixty years have remained in the oppressed class thanks to the OBC rule that is prevalent in the free India, thus a karunanidhi, a Ramadooss and a Arjun Singh can have their say with dummy leadership of dalit who again go and find a new mayavathi or a kanshiram who believe in crores amassing, being a chamar ki beti. The only reddeming factor in mayas maya jal has been she has got the winning combination of discriminated segments of the society with her combination., in fragmented, divided society. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ranjith Thankappan Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 7:49 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] “INDIA UNTOUCHED” wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar To: Prabhakar Singh Cc: sarai > not only that, look at our judiciary. it s bunch of arrogant > brahmin/bania combination > it s not at all representative. this s bz it follows the ideology > of brahmincal caste system. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Prabhakar Singh > To: Ranjith Thankappan ; sarai list at sarai.net>Sent: Wednesday, 23 July, 2008 4:42:14 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] “INDIA UNTOUCHED” wins Silver Dhow at > Zanzibar > Unfortunately our entire political system and elections are > inceasingly based on caste system even today. > Prabhakar > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ranjith Thankappan > To: sarai > Sent: Monday, 21 July, 2008 1:03:03 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] “INDIA UNTOUCHED” wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar > > This s film evry Indian should watch. Can see funny creatures from > varanasi unashamedly supporting brahmincal caste system and > preaching casteism in 21st century. > > "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar International Film > Festival 2008 > July 20, 2008 > > Ahmedabad-based documentary filmmaker and human rights activist > Stalin K. won the Silver Dhow Award for his film "India Untouched- > Stories of A People Apart" at the recently Zanzibar International > Film Festival in Tanzania > [http://www.ziff.or.tz/winners.htm].India Untouched is said to be > the most comprehensive look at the caste system prevalent in India > and Stalin had spent four years traveling the length and breadth > of the country to make this film. The film is produced by Drishti, > a media and human rights organization and Navsarjan, a leading > Dalit human rights organization. > > The festival, that was held in the island of Zanzibar, Tanzania, > is an International Competition with 60 screenings of the best > short films and feature-length documentaries from all over the > world.  India Untouched was adjudged as the second best film of > the festival. This is the fifth award for this film. It won the > Best Documentary at the Indo American Arts Council Film Festival > in New York in November 2007, the Best Film at the One Billion > Eyes Film Festival in Chennai in August 2007,  the Golden Conch > Award for the Best Documentary and the Best Film of the Festival > Award at Mumbai International Film Festival in February 2008. It > was also shown at the following festivals: > > DC Meets Delhi Film Festival, Washington DC, September 2007 > CineCufa Festival, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, September 2007 > Hamptons International Film Festival, New York, October 2007 > Copenhagen International Documentary Film Festival, November 2007 > Mini Indian Film Festival, Connecticut, November 2007 > Mumbai International Film Festival, India, February 2008 > Amnesty International Film Festival, Netherlands, March 2008 > Tallahassee Film Festival, Florida, May 2008 > > For more information on the film: > http://www.drishtimedia.org/news3.htm > > > ________________________________ > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com.. > Click here. > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "grey youth movement" group. >  To post to this group, send email to grey-youth- > movement at googlegroups.com >  To unsubscribe from thisgroup, send email to grey-youth-movement- > unsubscribe at googlegroups.com >  For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/grey-youth-movement?hl=en-GB > -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- > > >       Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/_________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: > > >       Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > > > > Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from any browser, > without download. Go to http://in.webmessenger.yahoo.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Jul 24 12:45:19 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:15:19 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Activist commits suicide over Amarnath land transferissue In-Reply-To: <47e122a70807232034y60e310f9n95c081e83a578463@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690807230820m56365ff3wbe9cba7d35afbb76@mail.gmail.com> <"635 3c690807230822n4c368920gfac2452d232f4204"@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70807232034y60e310f9n95c081e83a578463@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: It is indeed sad that a life is lost for petty reason of any kind, religion, faith or failures as percieved by the individual. The life is meant to be lived with dignity and decorum with ethical and moral values for the better life of other living beings, bring joys and happiness to all, first for the individuals family, as charity begins at home, then to society. Suicide is cowardice in action in any faith, fanatic mindset which adds fuel to such tendency of escapism is highly unwarranted , needs to be condemned. All ways of life, be it any faith, teach humans to live life fully in persuit of material, intellectual and spiritual happiness. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: inder salim Date: Thursday, July 24, 2008 9:05 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Activist commits suicide over Amarnath land transferissue To: reader-list at sarai.net > i am quite interested in suicides, but only if they are triggered by > some psychological reasons > , a normal suicide is triggered even by a simple failure in the > school exams...which too is very important... > > a truly poltical person will go for a sucide only if the casue is > universal, but this kuldeep dogra (if one believes the news item ) > seems certainly a naive or a weakling .... and if the hindutva world > thinks kuldeep dogra a truly political hero and a real shiva devotee > then they should construct a monument in his name and may be declare > him a saint event. i remember that upper caste mr. Goswami who set > himself ablaze for Mandal issue, proved that his action was > meaningless, and he was not a political minded person, ....some > personal insecurity can cause the victim to go for such an extreme, > ....in fact such minds are waiting for a spark, and that can come from > any quarter...so imagine how many such suicides would have > happened if > the land was actually transfered. to shrine board in the valley..... > Lord Shiva is happy in his heaven, all is well with the world.... > > now why on earth some richy rich Amarnath Srine Board member never > thought about suicide.... why a noted name in Hindutva world does not > think about jumping from some mountain, why it always an unknown face > who decides to end his life. > > this applies to all religions, and that why only some young minds are > won over by murderous words and pushes the victim to this > extreme....sad....i have sympathy for this young man, but what a > misguided end. > > society is a strange set of cards, and we will never know what the > other is holding nearer to her or his heart.... it is usually the > poverty which pushes a family to suicide, but even Marx noted in his > personal diaries that casue of 'misery' sometimes can be other than > poverty,..... of course the times were such that this kind of thought > could not crept into his 'manifesto', but this has been extensively > debated later on... > > i am yet to grasp the meaning of suicide.... and that is what made me > to write about it in the first place > > with love > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 8:52 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > > > *Activist commits suicide over Amarnath land transfer issue* > > ** > > *Srinagar , July 23 (ANI):* A man in Jammu and Kashmir committed > suicide> today, to protest the cancellation of the land transfer > to the Amarnath > > Shrine Board. > > > > Kuldip Dogra decided to give up his life to pressurise the State > authorities> to accept the demand for the return of land. > > > > The Jammu and Kashmir Government was forced to back down on its > decision to > > transfer 100 acres (40.47 hectares) of forest land to Shri > Amarnathji Shrine > > Board (SASB) due to a week-long protest. > > > > Staging protests in Jammu , activists of Amarnath Sangharsh > (struggle)> committee said if the authorities do not return the > land more such > > sacrifices will be made. > > > > During the two-month-long pilgrimage, thousands of devotees from > all over > > the country visit the cave shrine, situated at an altitude of > 3,800 metres > > (12,700 feet), to pray to Lord Shiva. (ANI) > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Jul 24 13:58:30 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:28:30 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] On Suicide In-Reply-To: <995a19920807240056y7bcee7e6qbb68ff2768ceff0e@mail.gmail.com> References: <995a19920807240056y7bcee7e6qbb68ff2768ceff0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Your thoughts have lot of merits in them as so far as the disgust at being not able to "change" any thing in life to ones liking with all out efforts may lead to a frustration of being helpless. Sati is not suicide but an action when barbaric acts of rape in the hands of invaders , after the natives were vanquished in wars, was more horrendous than jumping into fire.? Dakshayini, the daughter of Parvatharaja, jumped into yajnakunda as she could not see the groom of hers being insulted, but then had to wait for ages to join her husband again, Simple lesson of any faith is to overcome the difficult situations in life with use of intellect and calm mind, not escape from the scene of difficulties.? It is truely sad that human life which is one of the best in animal kingdom is wasted away by some wrong minds, instead of using the life to be of use to ones own loved ones, as charity begins at home, then be useful to the others in society.! Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Aman Sethi Date: Thursday, July 24, 2008 1:31 pm Subject: [Reader-list] On Suicide To: sarai list > I was quite surprised by the suicide of RSS sanghi Kuldeep Kumar as > well; it probably stems from my failure to understand the "situation > on the ground" in J&K. While Aditya post identifies him as "Kuldeep > Dogra" - this morning's Indian Express refers to him as "Kuldeep > Kumar". I assume he is Kuldeep Kumar Dogra. > ( It is based on this report that I describe him as an RSS member. > The news report quotes one of Dogra/Kumar's relatives as saying "he > was a staunch RSS supporter"). The land issue doesn't seem like the > sort of thing to trigger off such a dire step; but neither does the > fear of failing at a CBSE exam - a suicide trigger that claims several > young lives every year. > > Could anyone enlighten me on the cultural history of the practice? > Is > it related in any way to an idea of the after life, or the notion of > heaven? Of course one has heard of the highly ritualised and stylised > harakiri practice of Japan; and other practices like sati (which is > not strictly suicide - or is it?) > > I remember reading that Kerala - India's own answer to Scandinavian > human development indices - has the highest suicide rate in the > country. A rediff article - > http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/apr/15spec.htm (article reproduced > below) - claims that, In kerala, some 32 people commit suicide every > day! Of total Indian suicides, one half to three quarters are women; > compared to a global average suggests that men are three times more > likely to kill themselves. This again raises a number of disturbing > questions. > > Other information on suicide suggests that anti-depressants like > Prozac might actually encourage suicide - > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/758763.stm . > > My grandfather once told me a relative of his who, as a young man, > witnessed the partition riots as a child; walked home and died of > trauma - could this be termed suicide - a point where - disturbed > by a > world out of control - decides to abdicate. > > Best > a. > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:04 AM, inder salim > wrote: > > > > i am quite interested in suicides, but only if they are > triggered by > > some psychological reasons > > , a normal suicide is triggered even by a simple failure in the > > school exams...which too is very important... > > > > a truly poltical person will go for a sucide only if the casue is > > universal, but this kuldeep dogra (if one believes the news item ) > > seems certainly a naive or a weakling .... and if the hindutva > world> thinks kuldeep dogra a truly political hero and a real > shiva devotee > > then they should construct a monument in his name and may be declare > > him a saint event. i remember that upper caste mr. Goswami > who set > > himself ablaze for Mandal issue, proved that his action was > > meaningless, and he was not a political minded person, ....some > > personal insecurity can cause the victim to go for such an extreme, > > ....in fact such minds are waiting for a spark, and that can > come from > > any quarter...so imagine how many such suicides would have > happened if > > the land was actually transfered. to shrine board in the valley..... > > Lord Shiva is happy in his heaven, all is well with the world.... > > > > now why on earth some richy rich Amarnath Srine Board member never > > thought about suicide.... why a noted name in Hindutva world > does not > > think about jumping from some mountain, why it always an > unknown face > > who decides to end his life. > > > > this applies to all religions, and that why only some young > minds are > > won over by murderous words and pushes the victim to this > > extreme....sad....i have sympathy for this young man, but what a > > misguided end. > > > > society is a strange set of cards, and we will never know what the > > other is holding nearer to her or his heart.... it is usually the > > poverty which pushes a family to suicide, but even Marx noted > in his > > personal diaries that casue of 'misery' sometimes can be other than > > poverty,..... of course the times were such that this kind of > thought> could not crept into his 'manifesto', but this has been > extensively> debated later on... > > > > i am yet to grasp the meaning of suicide.... and that is what > made me > > to write about it in the first place > > > > with love > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 8:52 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > wrote: > > > > > > *Activist commits suicide over Amarnath land transfer issue* > > > ** > > > *Srinagar , July 23 (ANI):* A man in Jammu and Kashmir > committed suicide > > > today, to protest the cancellation of the land transfer to the > Amarnath> > Shrine Board. > > > > > > Kuldip Dogra decided to give up his life to pressurise the > State authorities > > > to accept the demand for the return of land. > > > > > > The Jammu and Kashmir Government was forced to back down on > its decision to > > > transfer 100 acres (40.47 hectares) of forest land to Shri > Amarnathji Shrine > > > Board (SASB) due to a week-long protest. > > > > > > Staging protests in Jammu , activists of Amarnath Sangharsh > (struggle)> > committee said if the authorities do not return the > land more such > > > sacrifices will be made. > > > > > > During the two-month-long pilgrimage, thousands of devotees > from all over > > > the country visit the cave shrine, situated at an altitude of > 3,800 metres > > > (12,700 feet), to pray to Lord Shiva. (ANI) > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List archive: > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Tue Jul 15 11:40:38 2008 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (JavaMuseum) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:10:38 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_JavaMuseum_in_Ju?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ly_2008?= Message-ID: <20080715081038.F1E25D49.ABD5FA72@192.168.0.3> JavaMuseum - Forum for Internet Technology in Contemporary Art http://www.javamuseum.org News ---------------------------------- 1. New interviews on: JIP. JavaMuseum Interview Project 2. New call for: Netart Features 2009 ---------------------------------- 1. JavaMuseum is happy to publish new interviews on JIP - JavaMuseum Interview Project http://jip.javamuseum.org a) Alexander Mouton (USA) http://jip.javamuseum.org/jipblog/?page_id=98 b). Henry Gwiazda (USA) http://jip.javamuseum.org/jipblog/?page_id=99 ------------------------------------ 2. Call for entries: Netart Features 2009 Deadline: 31 October 2008 Also in 2009, JavaMuseum will continue its netart features. Artists are invited to submit up to 5 works completed after1 January 2005. The complete call, including regulations and form can be found here---> http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=329 ------------------------------------ JavaMuseum - Forum for Internet Technology in Contemporary Art http://www.javamuseum.org is a corporate part of [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne www.nmartproject.net - the experimental platform for art and new media from Cologne/Germany ------------------------------------ info (at) javamuseum.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Wed Jul 23 15:16:20 2008 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (artNET) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:46:20 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_The_Network_on_I?= =?iso-8859-1?q?SEA2008_Singapore?= Message-ID: <20080723114620.95539FB7.C6BCFE98@192.168.0.3> -->The Network on ISEA 2008 Singapore -->SoundLAB and -->Bareback serial DIScharge on FILE Sao Paulo ---------------------------------------------- The Network, i.e. the abbreviation for [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne www.nmartproject.net, the experimental platform for art and new media - created and directed by Wilfried Agricola de Cologne will be presented as a project on ISEA 2008 Singapore www.ISEA2008.org - 25 July -3 August 2008 FILE - Electronic Language Festival Sao Paulo/Brazil http://www.file.org.br - 5-31 August 2008 will present SoundLAB - sonic art project environments Edition V - "Sound as a Tool for Storytelling" http://soundlab.newmediafest.org and Agricola de Cologne's video Bareback - serial DIScharge http://movingpictures.agricola-de-cologne.de/blog?page_id=6 --------------------------------------- Info released by netEX - networked experience http://netex.nmartproject.net info (at) nmartproject.net _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From kj.impulse at gmail.com Sun Jul 20 11:19:51 2008 From: kj.impulse at gmail.com (Kavita Joshi) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:19:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] [DFA NewsLetter] 7 Islands and a Metro: telecast on NDTV Message-ID: <821019d70807192249s320cbfb1y979e8fc23d3ec371@mail.gmail.com> 7 Islands and a Metro: telecast on NDTV On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 7:01 PM, July 23 - 24, 9:30 - 10 pm - 7 Islands and a Metro (Part 1&2) July 27, 1 - 2 pm - REPEAT July 30 - 31, 9:30 pm - 7 Islands and a Metro (Part 3&4) August 3, 1 - 2 pm - REPEAT Please spread the news. Madhusree -- www.madhusreedutta.com --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Please DO NOT REPLY to the sender. To contact the MODERATOR: delhifilmarchive [at] gmail.com To UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to delhifilmarchive-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com More OPTIONS are on the web: http://groups.google.com/group/delhifilmarchive Our WEBSITE: www.delhifilmarchive.org -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From logos.theword at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 11:48:06 2008 From: logos.theword at gmail.com (Logos Theatre) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:48:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Selves, Masks, Performance - an introductory theatre workshop In-Reply-To: <33bc2ee60807140306g55d8fa7fnda5a31f9937d6452@mail.gmail.com> References: <33bc2ee60807140146o1aa81423x8bade25e98b99765@mail.gmail.com> <33bc2ee60807140306g55d8fa7fnda5a31f9937d6452@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33bc2ee60807142318t2bc730edy600b5cc802e78a4a@mail.gmail.com> Logos Theatre presents 'Selves, Masks, Performance' - an introductory workshop on acting and performing on and off stage. The topics include: - Breath and voice - Physical preparation, movement and self awareness - Working with space - Emoting and expressing through the body - Improvizations and scene work - images and sculpts The workshop is for those interested in pursuing acting, as well as those interested in enhancing their expressive skills, interpersonal skills and self awareness. The workshop starts on July 26th, and sessions will be on weekends. The total duration is about thirty hours. The workshop will be facilitated by Arka Mukhopadhyay the founder and aristic director of Logos Theatre, who is a director, poet, and performer who works with theatre, performance poetry, storytelling and performance art. For further details, contact 9880966313. -- Logos Theatre In the beginning was the word No. 126, 3rd Main Road, Jayamahal Extension, Bangalore 560046 -------------------------------------------------------- If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all. Since no man has aught of what he leaves, what is't to leave betimes? Let be. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From tapasrayx at gmail.com Thu Jul 24 16:58:24 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 07:28:24 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?4oCcSU5ESUEgVU5UT1VDSEVE4oCdIHdpbnMgU2ls?= =?utf-8?q?ver_Dhow_at_Zanzibar?= In-Reply-To: <00f101c8ed27$23f25290$7f3b7946@taraprakash> References: <715527.59171.qm@web8702.mail.in.yahoo.com> <010601c8ecd6$895e3c30$7f3b7946@taraprakash> <9c06aab30807230816l16a53389jdf20ce56ba161a28@mail.gmail.com> <00f101c8ed27$23f25290$7f3b7946@taraprakash> Message-ID: <48886758.5090509@gmail.com> Interesting how politics works in our country. A "secular party" like Congress exploits all kinds of religious and caste sentiments. BJP, a party of "integral humanism", lets the Gujarat massacre happen and rewards the guy who oversaw that operation. BSP, a party that is supposed to be working against upper-caste domination, builds a Brahmin base, and its leader goes for flashy jewellery, expensive birthday celebrations, etc. The "communist" CPI-M, whose programme is critical of "caste leaders and certain leaders of bourgeois political parties (who) seek to utilise the polarisation on caste lines for narrow electoral gains and are hostile to building up the common movement of the oppressed sections of all castes," jumps into bed with those very leaders. Tapas TaraPrakash wrote: > Is this your prediction or corrected version of the slogan? The slogan I > quoted was being used at the time of the UP elections, may be they changed > it. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" >>> Brahmin shankh bajaaega >>> Haathi barhta jaaega??? >> It is "Haathi Dilli jayega" >> >> On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 8:42 PM, TaraPrakash >> wrote: >>> So time for Brahmin Dalit combination? >>> Brahmin shankh bajaaega >>> Haathi barhta jaaega??? >>> >>> Will the combination in the judiciary change too, if Maya becomes the PM? >>> My >>> answer is no. What is yours? >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ranjith Thankappan" >>> >>> >>>> not only that, look at our judiciary. it s bunch of arrogant >>>> brahmin/bania >>>> combination >>>> it s not at all representative. this s bz it follows the ideology of >>>> brahmincal caste system. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>> From: Prabhakar Singh >>>> >>>> Unfortunately our entire political system and elections are inceasingly >>>> based on caste system even today. >>>> Prabhakar >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>> From: Ranjith Thankappan >>>> >>>> This s film evry Indian should watch. Can see funny creatures from >>>> varanasi unashamedly supporting brahmincal caste system and preaching >>>> casteism in 21st century. >>>> >>>> "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar International Film >>>> Festival >>>> 2008 >>>> July 20, 2008 >>>> >>>> Ahmedabad-based documentary filmmaker and human rights activist Stalin >>>> K. >>>> won the Silver Dhow Award for his film "India Untouched-Stories of A >>>> People Apart" at the recently Zanzibar International Film Festival in >>>> Tanzania [http://www.ziff.or.tz/winners.htm].India Untouched is said to >>>> be >>>> the most comprehensive look at the caste system prevalent in India and >>>> Stalin had spent four years traveling the length and breadth of the >>>> country to make this film. The film is produced by Drishti, a media and >>>> human rights organization and Navsarjan, a leading Dalit human rights >>>> organization. >>>> >>>> The festival, that was held in the island of Zanzibar, Tanzania, is an >>>> International Competition with 60 screenings of the best short films and >>>> feature-length documentaries from all over the world. India Untouched >>>> was >>>> adjudged as the second best film of the festival. This is the fifth >>>> award >>>> for this film. It won the Best Documentary at the Indo American Arts >>>> Council Film Festival in New York in November 2007, the Best Film at the >>>> One Billion Eyes Film Festival in Chennai in August 2007, the Golden >>>> Conch >>>> Award for the Best Documentary and the Best Film of the Festival Award >>>> at >>>> Mumbai International Film Festival in February 2008. It was also shown >>>> at >>>> the following festivals: >>>> >>>> DC Meets Delhi Film Festival, Washington DC, September 2007 >>>> CineCufa Festival, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, September 2007 >>>> Hamptons International Film Festival, New York, October 2007 >>>> Copenhagen International Documentary Film Festival, November 2007 >>>> Mini Indian Film Festival, Connecticut, November 2007 >>>> Mumbai International Film Festival, India, February 2008 >>>> Amnesty International Film Festival, Netherlands, March 2008 >>>> Tallahassee Film Festival, Florida, May 2008 >>>> >>>> For more information on the film: >>>> http://www.drishtimedia.org/news3.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com.. Click >>>> here. >>>> --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups >>>> "grey youth movement" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>> grey-youth-movement at googlegroups.com >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> grey-youth-movement-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/grey-youth-movement?hl=en-GB >>>> -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- >>>> >>>> >>>> Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to >>>> http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>>> Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on >>>> http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from any browser, without >>>> download. Go to http://in.webmessenger.yahoo.com/ >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> -- >> /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Thu Jul 24 17:03:33 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:03:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?4oCcSU5ESUEgVU5UT1VDSEVE4oCdIHdpbnMgU2ls?= =?utf-8?q?ver_Dhow_at_Zanzibar?= In-Reply-To: <00f101c8ed27$23f25290$7f3b7946@taraprakash> References: <715527.59171.qm@web8702.mail.in.yahoo.com> <010601c8ecd6$895e3c30$7f3b7946@taraprakash> <9c06aab30807230816l16a53389jdf20ce56ba161a28@mail.gmail.com> <00f101c8ed27$23f25290$7f3b7946@taraprakash> Message-ID: <9c06aab30807240433i79a028acl568ac8e281d98f64@mail.gmail.com> Correct version of the slogan. On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 6:19 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > Is this your prediction or corrected version of the slogan? The slogan I > quoted was being used at the time of the UP elections, may be they changed > it. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" > > To: "TaraPrakash" > Cc: "Ranjith Thankappan" ; "Prabhakar Singh" > ; "sarai" > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 11:16 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar > > >>> Brahmin shankh bajaaega >>> Haathi barhta jaaega??? >> >> It is "Haathi Dilli jayega" >> >> On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 8:42 PM, TaraPrakash >> wrote: >>> >>> So time for Brahmin Dalit combination? >>> Brahmin shankh bajaaega >>> Haathi barhta jaaega??? >>> >>> Will the combination in the judiciary change too, if Maya becomes the PM? >>> My >>> answer is no. What is yours? >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ranjith Thankappan" >>> To: "Prabhakar Singh" >>> Cc: "sarai" >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:18 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar >>> >>> >>>> not only that, look at our judiciary. it s bunch of arrogant >>>> brahmin/bania >>>> combination >>>> it s not at all representative. this s bz it follows the ideology of >>>> brahmincal caste system. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>> From: Prabhakar Singh >>>> To: Ranjith Thankappan ; sarai >>>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, 23 July, 2008 4:42:14 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at >>>> Zanzibar >>>> >>>> Unfortunately our entire political system and elections are inceasingly >>>> based on caste system even today. >>>> Prabhakar >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>> From: Ranjith Thankappan >>>> To: sarai >>>> Sent: Monday, 21 July, 2008 1:03:03 AM >>>> Subject: [Reader-list] "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar >>>> >>>> This s film evry Indian should watch. Can see funny creatures from >>>> varanasi unashamedly supporting brahmincal caste system and preaching >>>> casteism in 21st century. >>>> >>>> "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar International Film >>>> Festival >>>> 2008 >>>> July 20, 2008 >>>> >>>> Ahmedabad-based documentary filmmaker and human rights activist Stalin >>>> K. >>>> won the Silver Dhow Award for his film "India Untouched-Stories of A >>>> People Apart" at the recently Zanzibar International Film Festival in >>>> Tanzania [http://www.ziff.or.tz/winners.htm].India Untouched is said to >>>> be >>>> the most comprehensive look at the caste system prevalent in India and >>>> Stalin had spent four years traveling the length and breadth of the >>>> country to make this film. The film is produced by Drishti, a media and >>>> human rights organization and Navsarjan, a leading Dalit human rights >>>> organization. >>>> >>>> The festival, that was held in the island of Zanzibar, Tanzania, is an >>>> International Competition with 60 screenings of the best short films and >>>> feature-length documentaries from all over the world. India Untouched >>>> was >>>> adjudged as the second best film of the festival. This is the fifth >>>> award >>>> for this film. It won the Best Documentary at the Indo American Arts >>>> Council Film Festival in New York in November 2007, the Best Film at the >>>> One Billion Eyes Film Festival in Chennai in August 2007, the Golden >>>> Conch >>>> Award for the Best Documentary and the Best Film of the Festival Award >>>> at >>>> Mumbai International Film Festival in February 2008. It was also shown >>>> at >>>> the following festivals: >>>> >>>> DC Meets Delhi Film Festival, Washington DC, September 2007 >>>> CineCufa Festival, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, September 2007 >>>> Hamptons International Film Festival, New York, October 2007 >>>> Copenhagen International Documentary Film Festival, November 2007 >>>> Mini Indian Film Festival, Connecticut, November 2007 >>>> Mumbai International Film Festival, India, February 2008 >>>> Amnesty International Film Festival, Netherlands, March 2008 >>>> Tallahassee Film Festival, Florida, May 2008 >>>> >>>> For more information on the film: >>>> http://www.drishtimedia.org/news3.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com.. Click >>>> here. >>>> --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups >>>> "grey youth movement" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>> grey-youth-movement at googlegroups.com >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> grey-youth-movement-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/grey-youth-movement?hl=en-GB >>>> -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- >>>> >>>> >>>> Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to >>>> http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>>> Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on >>>> http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from any browser, without >>>> download. Go to http://in.webmessenger.yahoo.com/ >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ > > -- /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 19:04:16 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:34:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic Terrorism Message-ID: <999742.76199.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Just thinking aloud.   One often comes across people (on SARAI and elsewhere) that can see:   - Imperialism as the defining aspect of the Americans/USA (usually to the exclusion of all else)   - Brahmanism as the defining aspect of Hindus/Hinduism (usually to the exclusion of all else)   - Terrorism as the defining aspect of Muslims/Islam (usually to the exclusion of all else)   These are just 3 examples.   In a curious sort of way such sets of people (whichever their favourite 'hate' might be) are alike in the manner in which they view things. Their 'obsessiveness' clouds their intellect and ability to look at things in context.    Just a thought.   Kshmendra From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 19:45:39 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 07:15:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat Habibullah - MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 In-Reply-To: <794694.18503.qm@web27802.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <974690.71900.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Murtaza Shibli Namaskaar & As Salaam Alykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa barakatu   You are one of the few commentators on Kashmir that I always look forward to reading. Your perspectives are always interesting.   You seem to favour the "Joint Control" suggestion as a panacea.   You asked Wajahat Habibullah about it. In my opinion his dismissal of the idea with his counter-question offered a lot to think about.   Would you please clarify that when you talk about Joint Control of Kashmir, how exactly would you define "Kashmir". The Valley of Kashmir under India control? J&K under Indian control? The culturally/ethnically Kashmiri, Kashmir split across the LOC between India and Pakistan? The 'disputed Kashmir' (as per the matter lying with the UNO) that encompasses all the territories that were a part (in 1947) of the erstwhile Princely State of Kashmir ?       Could you also please give your response to an earlier set of questions of mine about Open Borders / Joint Control (asked in KASHNET) that remained unaddressed:   -  How will the rest of India and the rest of Pakistan be insulated from 'illegal ingress' of  "Pakistanis" and "Indians" respectively?   - Where would the Indian and Pakistani border controls start?   - Would there be Pakistani controls on India's border with "Kashmir" and Indian controls on Pakistan's border with "Kashmir"? How would that be different from " joint control?   and adding to those >>>>   - Will the Hurriyat Pasand "Kashmiris" accept such a Joint Control or see it as being "Doubly Occupied"?   Best regards   Kshmendra   --- On Tue, 7/22/08, Kashmir Affairs wrote: From: Kashmir Affairs Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat Habibullah - MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008, 2:01 PM I agree too. But in my view the onus is on India. And Kashmir could demystify the borders of nation states that were created in 1947. There is merit in 'Joint Control' - This will allow India and Pakistan to merge their identities in Kashmir - a place that has become cause and symbol of fighting both for land as well as their respective identities. Joint Control will neutralise both - the puritans of Pakistan who believe in Muslim identity and the Hindutva forces - both feed on each other. Kashmir could alter political landscape between india and pakistan. As far as Bangladesh is concerned - I feel that migration of Bengalis to India attests that they can't live without India and hence a future within India might be something to explore. Again, India being bigger and 'mother country', it could set the process in motion. Bengalis should be allowed to migrate into mainland India and slowly it should be integrated into India. That could perhaps reassure Pakistanis of their safety if they join back to India following Joint Control on Kashmir and Bangladeshi example.   Murtaza   ----- Murtaza Shibli www.kashmiraffairs.org --- On Tue, 22/7/08, Prabhakar Singh wrote: From: Prabhakar Singh Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat Habibullah - MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Tuesday, 22 July, 2008, 8:40 AM I agree with this solution but politicians of all these countries, to further their own interests,will see to it that merger does not take place at any cost.We,therefore, will have to take initiative separately or jump into politics now to solve this problem. Regards, Prabhakar Singh ----- Original Message ---- From: "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Tuesday, 22 July, 2008 12:22:14 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat Habibullah - MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 Only solution to Kashmir is mergers of Pakistan, Bangladesh along with Kashmir into secular India, which has been formed by merger of over 357 kingdoms of the yester years, in good governance make states out of these territories also with elections to throw up good leaders of each region, and in democracy, with just rule of laws, without fear or favour to any faith, caste. The national exchequer used only for good governance of all citizens without any discrimination of region, caste, faith and language. United India with all faiths is more a reality and solution to all misadventures of armies and fanatics of faiths.   Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008 4:29 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat Habibullah    - MyKashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; USIP, 2008 To: reader-list at sarai.net, kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk > Murtaza Shibli asked Wajahat Habibullah about the possibilities > (with regard to Kashmir) of borders becoming irrelevant  and of > Joint Management (by India and Pakistan). WH dismissed the Joint > Management idea. >   > This reminded me of a conversation with Murtaza Shibli a few weeks > back (in another forum). The context (hopefully) will be clear in > the extracted portion of my mail. >   > QUOTE :""""""""""""""""" All of the above does not negate the fact > that there is a 'human' aspect of families who were cleaved apart > in 1947-48, whatever be their percentage.  Recognising this, I had > spoken about " other facilitations designed for such families > rather than a 'open border' system". You insist however that "The > free movement is definitely possible". I continue to disagree on that. >   > You say "There is a real need for open borders, as majority of > people in the border areas have suffered massively". I am not > arguing against the "need" but against the "possibility". >   > If there ever comes a time of 'open borders' between the SAARC > then 'Disputed Kashmir' automatically falls under it's umbrella. > Till then a "Kashmir" specific arrangement of "open borders" would > be nothing short of a fantasy: >   > -  How will the rest of India and the rest of Pakistan be > insulated from 'illegal ingress' of  "Pakistanis" and "Indians" > respectively?  > - Where would the Indian and Pakistani border controls start? >   > - Would there be Pakistani controls on India's border with > "Kashmir" and Indian controls on Pakistan's border with "Kashmir"? > How would that be different from " joint control? >   > I could go on, but the critical factor on which any arrangement > would hinge would be  what you yourself  called the "the mutual > biases or suspicions". >   > It would be naive of anyone to believe that those "mutual biases > and suspicions" will go away in any hurry. Impacting that is not > only the past history between the two countries but other much > more disturbing trends and threats too which I will not go into > for now. >   > That is why I spoke about " other facilitations designed for such > families rather than a 'open border' > system". """"""""""""""""""""""""" UNQUOTE >   > Kshmendra >    > > --- On Sun, 7/20/08, Kashmir Affairs wrote: > > From: Kashmir Affairs > Subject: [Reader-list] Book Review and Interview: Wahajat > Habibullah - My Kashmir: Conflict and Prospects of Enduring Peace; > USIP, 2008 > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 2:36 PM > > My Kashmir: Conflict and Prospects of > Enduring Peace > > By Wajahat Habibullah > > United States Institute of Peace, > Washington, 2008 > >   > > Murtaza Shibli > > [www.kashmiraffairs.org]  > > One of India’s finest and best known > Muslim civil servants, Wajahat Habibullah has remained associated > with Kashmir > through his appointments to various bureaucratic posts for nearly > threedecades. > This has given him a certain vantage point from which to watch the > socio-political developments as they unfolded. However, his > relationship is > formed not only from his professional involvement but also emerges > from a > personal commitment that is evident in his book. In Srinagar, he > is remembered > as a pro-Kashmiri Indian bureaucrat who believed in dialogue and > accommodation;in the tumultuous decade of the 1990s, he was > considered the only human face of > the Indian state, at a time when there was a total breakdown of > the social > contract and trust between the latter and the Kashmiri people. > Habibullahworked tirelessly, even risking his life, to repair and > restore some semblance > of engagement through his efforts at various levels. > >   > > My Kashmir: Conflict and the Prospects > of Enduring Peace > is a perceptive memoir peppered with anecdotes that offer personal > and mostly > honest insights into the tensions and distrust between Kashmir and > India that > marked the formative years of their relationship and how such > mutual suspicion > led to the emergence of one of the deadliest insurgencies in the > region that > still claims a heavy toll of lives. The book tries to offer a > sympathetic view > of the Kashmir problem – not from an academic angle or political > standpoint,but from a humanitarian perspective. The author draws > extensively from his > experiences of working both as an administrator under various > local Kashmiri > governments and in the offices of two Indian prime ministers. In his > introduction, Habibullah asserts that although not a Kashmiri > himself, he has > tried to see the situation through the eyes of one committed both > to India and > to serving the people of Kashmir.   > >   > > He points out that the government of > India’s constant fear that Kashmiris might gravitate towards > Pakistan has > meant > that ‘national security interests’ have taken precedence over > everythingelse, > including the rights of people. Giving examples from his personal > experience,he tells us how Indian paramilitary forces > ‘accosted…and humiliated > [Kashmiris] > as they returned home late from work’ [p.26] in early 1970 or how > a top > Border > Security Force (BSF) officer, Brigadier General Randhawa,  > threatened to > enter the homes of Kashmiris and ‘shoot anyone they suspected of > intendingmischief’. [p.25] This privileging of the ‘national > security interest’ > affected > the author as well as his civilian authority was often bypassed by > the Army and > police and on one occasion earned him a serious reprimand from the > ChiefSecretary, the senior-most bureaucrat in the state, for not > being quick enough > in issuing warrants for the arrest of the workers of an opposition > politicalparty. When in 1990, he requested the notoriously anti- > Muslim governor Jagmohan > to issue an appeal to Pandits (Kashmiri Hindus) not to leave the > Kashmir valley > and offer them protection, instead, Jagmohan did the opposite, thereby > triggering their exodus. It also prompted the widely held belief > that the > Pandit migration was initiated to clear the field for the Indian > Army and > paramilitary forces to target Kashmiri Muslims more freely and > without any > collateral damage to Hindu interests. > >   > > Habibullah offers several examples of > how the Indian government and its officials continue to see > Kashmir through the > prism solely of ‘national security’ concerns, enabling all manner of > malpractices that have further fuelled feelings of alienation > among Kashmiris. > He himself became a victim of the same mindset when Governor > Girish Saxena > selectively edited his report on the notorious Kunan Poshpora rape > of 1992 by > the Indian Army, giving a clean chit to the personnel involved. > This report > deeply angered Kashmiris and cost Habibullah his credibility among > them – so > much so that a militant group tried to assassinate him. > >   > > This security-related concern has fed > a distrust of Kashmiris in general and pervades the highest > levels; the prime > minister Indira Gandhi ‘not only rejected the proposal [to upgrade > Srinagarairport as an International one] outright but called in > her joint secretary, > who had recommended acceptance, to admonish him that an ulterior > motive must > always be suspected in any such proposal received from that > state’. [p55]. > This > deep distrust of Kashmiris was shared by the Indian prime minister > MorarjiDesai who stated during a meeting in Srinagar that “one > doesn’t know whom > to > trust in Kashmir”. On another occasion, when Indira Gandhi was > touring the > valley > during an election campaign in 1983, she said to Habibullah that > her public > gatherings ‘looked entirely fake’. The author’s own observation > about the > Indian Independence Day celebrations is that the Kashmiris never felt > enthusiastic and ‘not even the parade or loudly played national > anthem could > attract an audience’. [p.29] > >   > > He makes some insightful observations > about the characteristics of the Kashmiri people and calls their > dexterity in > weaving conspiracy theories legendary. However, his explanation of the > Hazratbal siege in 1993 is a no less skilful conspiracy theory > when he claims > that the police made false assumptions based on the word of a head > constablewho was a Jama’at-i-Islami sympathiser, thus effectively > placing the blame on > the Jama’at. He forgets, in the process, that according to the initial > intelligence reports quoted by the official media at the time, one > of the > reasons for the siege was the presence inside the shrine of Syed > Salahudin,chief of the Hizbul Mujahideen, and foreign militants, > which was eventually > proved wrong. If the police constable was a Jama’at sympathiser > who raised a > false alarm, his information should have been implausible given > the official > assessments about the presence of Syed Salahudin, himself a former > Jama’atactivist. > However, apart from this seemingly strange explanation for the > genesis of the > Hazratbal seige, Habibullah’s role in mitigating the crisis was > phenomenal as > he conducted negotiations with the holed-up militants at great > risk to his own > safety. His well known opposition to any hard-line military action > angered the > Indian army high command who allegedly tried to kill him when his > car was hit > by an army vehicle, severely injuring him. > >   > > The incident did not deter Habibullah > who continued his efforts to seek dialogue with the pro- > independence Kashmiri > separatists – both militants and the political leadership. He has held > various > meetings and discussions with these leaders over the past two > decades, opening > and sustaining various channels of communications. However, he is > too modest > and does not give himself enough credit, despite the fact that it > is his > efforts that have been central to keeping alive the dialogue > process between > the Indian government and Kashmiri separatists. His assessment of > Kashmiriseparatists > is that they lack leadership and vision and finds them devoid of > clarity of > thought or goal. He narrates an interesting anecdote about 1977 > state elections > as to how the Mirwaiz Moulvi Mohammad Farooq (father of current > Mirwaiz Umar > Farooq) tried to blackmail him by threatening to ‘set Srinagar on > fire’ if > Habibullah stopped him from taking a procession in support of the > Janata Party > headed by then Indian Prime Minister Morari Desai to which Mirwaiz > was aligned > at that time. He characterizes Sheikh Abdullah’s government a > ‘sheikhdom’and > observes that ‘in his last years in power, Abdullah was more > concerned with > securing an orderly succession than with running the government’. > He also > claims that a Western based JKLF leader came to meet him in 2004 > in Washington > and offered to work for the peace process. > >   > > The author contends that ‘Islam has > been pivotal to the evolving politics of Kashmir, but more as a > symbol of > people fighting for identity rather than its religious > ramifications’ and > discounts any relationship between the Kashmiri militant groups > and Al Qaeda as > ‘insinuations ostensibly made to curry US favor’. He questions > comparisonsbetween Kashmir and Northern Ireland adding that while > there was a demographic > change in Northern Ireland , there was no such thing in Kashmir – > an argument > hotly contested by Kashmiris. The systematic reduction of the > Muslim population > in Jammu and Kashmir since 1947, as evident from successive > official census > reports, is seen as a clear proof of demographic engineering, a > fact that was > raised by the Kashmiri leader Saifudin Soz, now the Indian > Minister of Water > Resources and head of the Congress party in Jammu and Kashmir. > Also, fears of > demographic change were the main reason for recent mass protests > in Srinagar > triggered > by the illegal land transfer by the local state government to a > semi-government > Hindu body, the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB). > >   > > Habibullah stresses the symbolic > importance of Kashmir to both India and Pakistan and calls for any > settlementto keep in mind the question of national pride in both > countries so that no > ‘substantial compromise on territory can or should be expected – > or even > hoped > for’. He accepts that freedom is the ‘dream of every Kashmiri’ but > tendsto > differentiate between freedom and independence, a term Kashmiris > usually use > interchangeably. He contends that the Indian constitution > guarantees that > freedom which ‘can be achieved while retaining the territorial > integrity of > both India and Pakistan with the present boundaries becoming soft > borders’,and > advocates against an independent Kashmir saying that ‘true freedom > cannot be > won by independence, which would bring even more suffering and > would be > unacceptable to both India and Pakistan’. His argument is that ‘an > independent > state of 5.44 million people occupying 85,00 mostly mountainous > square miles, > located in one of the world’s most volatile regions amid rival > nuclear powers > and a number of smaller states in conflict, with potential oil > wealth, is > hardly likely to be left free’.  > >   > > Wajahat Habibullah lives up to his > reputation of being sympathetic to Kashmiris as he repeatedly > refers to the > pain and agony they have suffered ‘as a result of confrontations > betweenIndia > and Pakistan during the intervening half century’. He laments > strongly the > oppressive treatment of Kashmiris by the Indian state at various > levels, a > treatment that could be easily classified as structural violence. > He observes > that personal relations between political leaders of India and Kashmir > ‘played > a marked role in the trajectory of Jammu and Kashmir’s history’ > effectivelysuggesting that they were overwhelmingly elite > arrangements that lacked popular > consent or appeal. He places the need for the restoration of > Kashmiri dignity > and self respect at the heart of his argument. Expressing sympathy > with the > Kashmiri perception of a long history of continuous humiliation > since accession > to India in 1947, he calls upon India to concede those rights and > libertiesthat are the entitlement of ‘every Indian citizen’ and > prophesies that > otherwise ‘simmering resentments in Kashmir will render any > abiding peace > elusive’. He is greatly perturbed about Kashmiris being held in > contempt by > both India and Pakistan as a people that can be ‘bought and sold’, and > argues > that such an attitude has added to the complexities in the > relationship between > India and Kashmir. > >   > > He describes the autonomy report > prepared by the Farooq Abdullah government in 2000 as flawed, but > calls its > rejection by the central Indian government as an opportunity > squandered. Habibullah constantly points out the confusions and > contradictions in New > Delhi’s Kashmir policy as a result of competing and confusing > views across > various government departments. In his view, the dialogue between > the Hurriyat > leaders and New Delhi’s interlocutor NN Vohra (currently the > governor of > Jammu > and Kashmir ) failed due to this sort of confusion, which eroded the > credibility of the then prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee among > the Hurriyat > leaders. He assesses the deep-rooted suspicion of Kashmiris as the > mainbottleneck for future negotiations and argues that the > credibility of Indian > institutions in Kashmir remains fragile. He calls for a ‘balance > betweenimmediate security concerns and long-term good will and > cooperation’, tacitly > admitting that the current peace process remains inconclusive due > to the slow > or absence of responses from the Indian side. He observes that the US > government also shares the view that Pakistan has been more > forthcoming with > compromises than India in the present peace process and quotes > Pakistan’sHigh > Commissioner in India, Ashraf Jehangir Qazi, who told him in early > 2002 that > ‘officially Pakistan was willing to compromise on the issue of > Jammu and > Kashmir ...however, a settlement along the LoC (Line of Control) > would be seen > by the Pakistani people as surrender unless the settlement was > accompanied by > some accommodation on India’s part”. > >   > > Despite its valuable insights and > richness in anecdotal detail, Habibullah’s claim that principal > reasons for > militant groups to find new recruits for insurgency are more > linked to economic > incentives of greed rather than the grievance, grossly > underestimates the > effects of massive human rights violations, humiliation felt by > Kashmiris on > multiple accounts including increasing marginalisation.  The > recently held > massive public protests in the streets of Srinagar that was > spearheaded and > sustained by the common people should be an eye opener about the > frustrationsand anger of the Kashmiri population. There are also > some glaring omissions in > the author’s references to certain historical events. While > discussing the > problem of communalism [p23] he briefly mentions that Muslims in Jammu > ‘migrated to Pakistan to avoid bloodbath’, conveniently forgetting > aboutthe > massacre precipitated by the Maharaja that killed thousands of > Muslims and > forced hundreds of thousands to migrate to Pakistan. Similarly in > the beginning > of the chapter two, he briefly mentions the attacks on Jamaa’t-i- > islamisupporters following the death of Zulfiqar Bhutto in 1979, > but omits the > details about widespread loot, plunder and arson that was > engineered with the > tacit support of the National Conference led government headed by > SheikhAbdullah. Several people were killed while hundreds were > rendered homeless, but > this does not find mention in the book.  Habibullah also tends to > read the > history of Partition one-sidedly and places the onus on Sir Syed > Ahmad Khan for > the ultimate division, but fails to recognise the role of Hindu > fundamentalists, or Gandhi’s responsibility in his choice of > leadership of > the > Congress, his distrust of Muslims as well as his invocation of > Hindu symbols > and mythology to cultivate mass political support.  And, lastly, > the time > line provided at the end of the book needs expanding to include > events like 11 > February 1984 – the hanging of Maqbool Bhat and other such > important events > that > have shaped the recent history of the beleaguered region.   > >   > > The merit of the book lies in the > clarity of its arguments and the modest approach of the author. My > Kashmir: Conflict and the Prospects of Enduring Peace is a wonderful > contributionto understanding Kashmir and the efforts at peace- > building there. > It is hoped that the USIP will further broaden its commendable > efforts to > promote the peace in the region by expanding its work and > resources, engaging > more scholars from the area, in order to help the ongoing peace > process and > offer specific insights into the problem that Wajahat Habibullah > stronglybelieves is ‘tractable’. > >   > > > Interview- Wajahat Habibullah > > Chief Information Commissioner, India > Murtaza > Shibli > >   > > There is a strong lament in your book > about the destruction of Kashmir. Yet you sound so hopeful of a > solution. Why? > > Because > there is a very strong yearning and will for peace and people want > to live with > dignity and peace. I think most of the people are sick of violence > and they > want to seek a solution through the constitutional and legal > mechanism. > > It > is now the duty of India, Pakistan and primarily the Kashmiri > leadership to > afford a sense of dignity and participation to the people of Jammu > and Kashmir > to ensure a long term solution. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s > idea of Round > Table Conference was part of extending that hope and translating > it into > action. > >   > > Whenever there is some hope of a > solution it is punctured by some untoward incidents. The recent > controversy of > land transfer to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB) is exactly > the kind of > setback that reverses such hopes. > > A. > The controversies like SASB  is a cause > for great pain and apprehension. It is a major setback which has > killed a part > of me. We can’t shut our eyes to issues like this. Unfortunately, > Governor SK > Sinha failed to gauge the aspirations of the Kashmiri people. He > equated the > problems with what he had seen in the rest of the country, but > Kashmir is > different. Thankfully, the new governor NN Vohra has a great > understanding of > Kashmir unlike his predecessors and hopefully this will prove > beneficial to the > people of Kashmir and rest of the country. > >   > > You mention about the Indian policy > being always guided by its perception of security and national > interest. And > now it seems to me that this ‘national interest’ is being extended to > religion > as well. Giving land to SASB is seen as a legitimate function and > role of the > Indian government for ensuring Indian presence in Kashmir. Is > religion now > being securitised? > > It > has been by some, but not by the government. As you know, the land > was never > actually transferred, and when government became aware of the public > resentment, the order was revoked. > >   > > Despite progress in the India-Pakistan > peace process, the Kashmiris are very sceptical of a solution > emerging. What do > you think is the reason? > > There > is frustration because the Kashmiris are feeling left out of the > peace building > process between India and Pakistan. Their skepticism can be > mitigated by their > being made part of the process. This can be achieved through > different means, > but basically it should flow from an effort to build trust. > >   > > There is a general belief that India’s > slow or non-response to President Musharraf’s proposals killed the > initialoptimism about the peace process and now the new political > challenges in both > countries have nearly stalled the process. > > The > General’s proposals were responded to in positive manner by no > less than the > Prime Minister of India. It is true however that there are those > within our > establishment that were averse to them. At any rate, it is my firm > belief that > democratic governments will be able to come to a more enduring > settlementacceptable to their people and therefore such solutions > will be stronger. > >   > > You make an observation in your book > about the Kashmiris’ penchant for cooking up conspiracy theories. > But your > explanation about the Hazratbal Siege, blaming a Jama’at-i-Islami > sympathiserpolice constable sounds like a conspiracy as well? > > Well, > that is my suspicion, based on having been hands on in the > negotiation. And the > constable was the one who had delivered the highly exaggerated > misinformationthat provoked the siege of the shrine. > >   > > You seem to discount the massive human > rights violations and its impact on fuelling insurgency and > winning new > recruits to it. Is there any particular reason you see the main > motivation for > insurgency as money rather than human rights violations and the > anger that it > generates? > > I > do not discount the cost in human rights, and have spoken of my direct > experience of such incidents. But I cannot claim to have covered those > incidents of which I had no direct experience. And I don’t see > money as the > reason at all. The outbreak was > precipitated by a genuine anger. That became a reason for its > persistence into > the mid ‘90s. After that however, money has begun to play an ever > largerrole. > I have known several young men who have or whose parents have > admitted to me as > much. And this very susceptibility to take to violence for money > does indeed > stem from anger > >   > > You mention that freedom is the choice > of every Kashmiri but then claim that this freedom is guaranteed > by the Indian > Constitution. How do you reconcile the two ideas? Surely the > majority of > Kashmiri separatists don’t want to operate within the ambit of the > IndianConstitution? > > Freedom > in my view is freedom-and freedom is guaranteed by India’s > Constitution. My > argument is that the Kashmiris be allowed to enjoy that freedom. > >   > > What is your position on Article 370 > and how do you see certain Indian political groups like BJP who > lobby for its > abrogation? > >  Article 370 allows Jammu and Kashmir to be the > only state in India to have a constitution of its own, something > that is the > right of every State in a federal structure like the US. Its > abrogation would > be regressive. But it should not be used to perpetuate the > dominance of a > ruling elite within J&K, as it has in the past. It must allow the > people of > the state as much, if not more freedom than guaranteed to the > people of India > by India’s constitution. > >   > > There is this greater talk about south > Asia as a reference point where borders can become irrelevant. Can’t > President Musharraf’s > ‘Joint management’ plan for Kashmir be the beginning of a post- > WestphalianSouth Asia? > > A > counter-question. Why should the people of Jammu and Kashmir > submit to > management by another or worse still by joint management of more > than one? Are > any of India’s > other States “managed” by the Centre? > >   > > You discount any link between Kashmiri > militants and Al Qaeda, yet in many official Indian accounts a > large stress is > placed on the claims of International jihadism including links > between the Al > Qaeda and Kashmiri insurgency. > > I > have seen no links, and I have seen the insurgency from close > quarters. >   > > How would you compare freedom of > information regime in south Asia? And could this be useful in ways > to promote > peace and cooperation in the region? > > India > in its Right to Information Act 2005 has among the world’s most > enlightenedlegislations of this nature. Certainly I have been > working with the Jammu and > Kashmir (J&K) State government to adopt this legislation for the > State, if > not taking advantage of Article 379 to have an even stronger law > of this > nature. The J&K law passed originally in 2004 is totally without >substance,and as a result has hardly been used at all. Bangladesh > has in May 2008 adopted > a Right to Information Ordnance based in great measure on India’s > legislation; > Nepal had done so earlier. Pakistan’s Freedom of Information > Ordnance 2002 > has > some weaknesses which will need strengthening. > >   > > How do you see the current situation > in Pakistan and the struggle for democracy? > > I > have never been to Pakistan, but I have always been an ardent > supporter of > democracy. Unfortunately, Pakistan like many Third World countries > has been > experimenting with short bouts of democracy alongside dictatorship. > Dictatorships succeed in the short term, but they bring ruin in > the long term > without much in the form of infrastructure that could effectively > govern a > modern state. > > The > current situation is Pakistan is interesting and I see it as first > falteringsteps to bring a democracy and I wish them well. But the > onus is on the newly > elected government to build credible institutions and > infrastructure to which > people can identify with and feel a part of. It is a difficult > road ahead, but > I strongly hope the democracy in Pakistan flourishes. > > > > >      __________________________________________________________ > Not happy with your email address?. > Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses > available now at > Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: > > >  > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> __________________________________________________________ Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Jul 24 20:09:16 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:09:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shiv Sena activists do puja in Taj precincts Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807240739i51617cd3x9222e51cc74dd0aa@mail.gmail.com> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Shiv_Sena_activists_enter_Taj_pray_inside/articleshow/3276025.cms AGRA: A group of Shiv Sena activists on Thursday managed to sneak into the Taj Mahal and performed 'aarti' and puja inside the precincts. They have been taken into custody. The Shiv Sena claims the 17th century Taj Mahal is an ancient Shiva temple. On Monday, they tried to enter the marble mausoleum but were prevented. They entered the monument one by one Thursday afternoon, fooling the security, gathered inside and performed the puja From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Jul 24 20:14:51 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:44:51 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?4oCcSU5ESUEgVU5UT1VDSEVE4oCdIHdpbnMgU2ls?= =?utf-8?q?ver_Dhow_at_Zanzibar?= References: <715527.59171.qm@web8702.mail.in.yahoo.com> <010601c8ecd6$895e3c30$7f3b7946@taraprakash> <9c06aab30807230816l16a53389jdf20ce56ba161a28@mail.gmail.com><00f101c8ed27$23f25290$7f3b7946@taraprakash> <48886758.5090509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <007801c8ed9b$d7df2b60$213b7946@taraprakash> Hi Tapas and all. This is how politics works, period. not only in our country but all over the world where austentations of democracy are there, political parties tend to pander to those groups that are not considered their support base. You shouldn't be surprised if some BJP government implements reservations in jobs for the minorities and Mayavati does the same for the "upper castes". ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tapas Ray" To: "sarai list" Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] “INDIA UNTOUCHED” wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar > Interesting how politics works in our country. A "secular party" like > Congress exploits all kinds of religious and caste sentiments. BJP, a > party of "integral humanism", lets the Gujarat massacre happen and > rewards the guy who oversaw that operation. BSP, a party that is > supposed to be working against upper-caste domination, builds a Brahmin > base, and its leader goes for flashy jewellery, expensive birthday > celebrations, etc. The "communist" CPI-M, whose programme is critical of > "caste leaders and certain leaders of bourgeois political parties (who) > seek to utilise the polarisation on caste lines for narrow electoral > gains and are hostile to building up the common movement of the > oppressed sections of all castes," jumps into bed with those very leaders. > > Tapas > > > TaraPrakash wrote: >> Is this your prediction or corrected version of the slogan? The slogan I >> quoted was being used at the time of the UP elections, may be they >> changed >> it. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" > >>>> Brahmin shankh bajaaega >>>> Haathi barhta jaaega??? >>> It is "Haathi Dilli jayega" >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 8:42 PM, TaraPrakash >>> wrote: >>>> So time for Brahmin Dalit combination? >>>> Brahmin shankh bajaaega >>>> Haathi barhta jaaega??? >>>> >>>> Will the combination in the judiciary change too, if Maya becomes the >>>> PM? >>>> My >>>> answer is no. What is yours? >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Ranjith Thankappan" >>>> >>>> >>>>> not only that, look at our judiciary. it s bunch of arrogant >>>>> brahmin/bania >>>>> combination >>>>> it s not at all representative. this s bz it follows the ideology of >>>>> brahmincal caste system. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>>> From: Prabhakar Singh >>>>> >>>>> Unfortunately our entire political system and elections are >>>>> inceasingly >>>>> based on caste system even today. >>>>> Prabhakar >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>>> From: Ranjith Thankappan > >>>> >>>>> This s film evry Indian should watch. Can see funny creatures from >>>>> varanasi unashamedly supporting brahmincal caste system and preaching >>>>> casteism in 21st century. >>>>> >>>>> "INDIA UNTOUCHED" wins Silver Dhow at Zanzibar International Film >>>>> Festival >>>>> 2008 >>>>> July 20, 2008 >>>>> >>>>> Ahmedabad-based documentary filmmaker and human rights activist Stalin >>>>> K. >>>>> won the Silver Dhow Award for his film "India Untouched-Stories of A >>>>> People Apart" at the recently Zanzibar International Film Festival in >>>>> Tanzania [http://www.ziff.or.tz/winners.htm].India Untouched is said >>>>> to >>>>> be >>>>> the most comprehensive look at the caste system prevalent in India and >>>>> Stalin had spent four years traveling the length and breadth of the >>>>> country to make this film. The film is produced by Drishti, a media >>>>> and >>>>> human rights organization and Navsarjan, a leading Dalit human rights >>>>> organization. >>>>> >>>>> The festival, that was held in the island of Zanzibar, Tanzania, is an >>>>> International Competition with 60 screenings of the best short films >>>>> and >>>>> feature-length documentaries from all over the world. India Untouched >>>>> was >>>>> adjudged as the second best film of the festival. This is the fifth >>>>> award >>>>> for this film. It won the Best Documentary at the Indo American Arts >>>>> Council Film Festival in New York in November 2007, the Best Film at >>>>> the >>>>> One Billion Eyes Film Festival in Chennai in August 2007, the Golden >>>>> Conch >>>>> Award for the Best Documentary and the Best Film of the Festival Award >>>>> at >>>>> Mumbai International Film Festival in February 2008. It was also shown >>>>> at >>>>> the following festivals: >>>>> >>>>> DC Meets Delhi Film Festival, Washington DC, September 2007 >>>>> CineCufa Festival, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, September 2007 >>>>> Hamptons International Film Festival, New York, October 2007 >>>>> Copenhagen International Documentary Film Festival, November 2007 >>>>> Mini Indian Film Festival, Connecticut, November 2007 >>>>> Mumbai International Film Festival, India, February 2008 >>>>> Amnesty International Film Festival, Netherlands, March 2008 >>>>> Tallahassee Film Festival, Florida, May 2008 >>>>> >>>>> For more information on the film: >>>>> http://www.drishtimedia.org/news3.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com.. >>>>> Click >>>>> here. >>>>> --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups >>>>> "grey youth movement" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>> grey-youth-movement at googlegroups.com >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> grey-youth-movement-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/grey-youth-movement?hl=en-GB >>>>> -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to >>>>> http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on >>>>> http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from any browser, without >>>>> download. Go to http://in.webmessenger.yahoo.com/ >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/ >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Thu Jul 24 20:31:37 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:31:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Grenade attack kills five, injures 25 in J&K Message-ID: <6353c690807240801p6fdcc9edwf29d047ff50e8b3a@mail.gmail.com> *Grenade attack kills five, injures 25 in J&K* Srinagar (PTI): In the first major strike targeting migrant labourers in Kashmir valley in the past two years, five members of a family, four of them children, were killed and 25 wounded in a grenade attack at a bus stand here Thursday. A group of non-Kashmiri labourers, on way to their native places, were boarding a Jammu-bound bus at Batamaloo in the heart of the city when some unidentified persons hurled a grenade at around 1200 hrs, official sources said. Three died instantly and two on way to hospital, they said adding all the five were members of one family hailing from Bihar. Mohammad Afroze's three sons -- Adil, Qayoom and Ayoub, daughter Khushboo and wife Rubina were killed in the attack, the sources said. Afroze fell unconscious at the hospital when he came to know about the death of his four children. The injured, numbering 25, were undergoing treatment at the SMHS hospital here, the sources said. Two pilgrims, returning home after paying obeisance at the holy cave shrine of Amarnath, were among those wounded. No militant outfit has claimed responsibility for the grenade attack so far. From anansi1 at earthlink.net Thu Jul 24 21:01:59 2008 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul Miller) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:31:59 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?The_FBI=27=80=99s_Plan_to_Profile_Mu?= =?iso-8859-1?q?slims?= Message-ID: The FBI’s Plan to ‘Profile’ Muslims by Juan Cole Published on Thursday, July 10, 2008 by Salon.com http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/07/10/10255/ The U.S. Justice Department is considering a change in the grounds on which the FBI can investigate citizens and legal residents of the United States. Till now, DOJ guidelines have required the FBI to have some evidence of wrongdoing before it opens an investigation. The impending new rules, which would be implemented later this summer, allow bureau agents to establish a terrorist profile or pattern of behavior and attributes and, on the basis of that profile, start investigating an individual or group. Agents would be permitted to ask "open-ended questions" concerning the activities of Muslim Americans and Arab-Americans. A person’s travel and occupation, as well as race or ethnicity, could be grounds for opening a national security investigation. The rumored changes have provoked protests from Muslim American and Arab-American groups. The Council on American Islamic Relations, among the more effective lobbies for Muslim Americans’ civil liberties, immediately denounced the plan, as did James Zogby, the president of the Arab-American Institute. Said Zogby, "There are millions of Americans who, under the reported new parameters, could become subject to arbitrary and subjective ethnic and religious profiling." Zogby, who noted that the Bush administration’s history with profiling is not reassuring, warned that all Americans would suffer from a weakening of civil liberties. In fact, Zogby’s statement only begins to touch on the many problems with these proposed rules. The new guidelines would lead to many bogus prosecutions, but they would also prove counterproductive in the effort to disrupt real terror plots. And then there’s Attorney General Michael Mukasey’s rationale for revising the rules in the first place. "It’s necessary," he explained in a June news conference, "to put in place regulations that will allow the FBI to transform itself as it is transforming itself into an intelligence- gathering organization." When did Congress, or we as a nation, have a debate about whether we want to authorize the establishment of a domestic intelligence agency? Indeed, late last month Congress signaled its discomfort with the concept by denying the FBI’s $11 million funding request for its data-mining center. Establishing a profile that would aid in identifying suspects is not in and of itself illegal, though the practice generally makes civil libertarians nervous. When looking for drug couriers, Drug Enforcement Agency agents were permitted by the Supreme Court in United States v. Sokolow (1989) to use indicators such as the use of an alias, nervous or evasive behavior, cash payments for tickets, brief trips to major drug- trafficking cities, type of clothing, and the lack of checked luggage. This technique, however, specifically excluded the use of skin color or other racial features in building the profile. In contrast, using race and ethnicity as the -- or even a -- primary factor in deciding whom to stop and search, despite being widespread among police forces, is illegal. Just this spring, the Maryland State Police settled out of court with the ACLU and an African- American man after having been sued for the practice of stopping black and Latino men and searching them for drugs. New Jersey police also got into trouble over stopping people on the grounds of race. The New Jersey Supreme Court ruled last year in State v. Calvin Lee that a defendant’s plausible allegation that the arrest was initiated primarily because of race would be grounds for discovery: The defense attorney could then request relevant documents from the prosecution that might show discriminatory attitudes and actions on the part of the police. Because racial profiling is most often felt by juries to be inappropriate, its use could backfire on the FBI. Suspects charged on the basis of an investigation primarily triggered by their race could end up being acquitted as victims of government discrimination. If the aim is to identify al-Qaida operatives or close sympathizers in the United States, racial profiling is counterproductive. Such tiny, cultlike terror organizations are multinational. Richard Reid, the shoe bomber, is a Briton whose father hailed from Jamaica, and no racial profile of him would have predicted his al-Qaida ties. Adam Gadahn, an al-Qaida spokesman, is from a mixed Jewish and Christian heritage and hails from suburban Orange County, Calif. When I broached the topic of FBI profiling to some Muslim American friends on Facebook, a scientist in San Francisco replied, "Profiling Muslims or Arabs will just make al-Qaida look outside Islam for its bombers. There are many other disgruntled groups aside from those that worship Allah." It is a mystery why the Department of Justice has not learned the lesson that terrorists are best tracked down through good police work brought to bear on specific illegal acts, rather than by vast fishing expeditions. After Sept. 11, the DOJ called thousands of Muslim men in the United States for what it termed voluntary interviews. Not a single terrorist was identified in this manner, though a handful of the interviewees ended up being deported for minor visa offenses. Once it became clear that the interviews might eventuate in arbitrary actions against them, the willingness of American Muslims to cooperate declined rapidly, and so the whole operation badly backfired. The fiasco of the prosecution of the Detroit Four should also have been instructive. These four Arab men apparently had the misfortune to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, having moved into an apartment in southwest Detroit recently vacated by a man suspected of al-Qaida ties. The prosecution alleged that innocent vacation videotapes of places such as Disneyland found in the apartment were part of a terror plot, and that vague doodles in a notebook depicted targets abroad such as a Jordanian hospital and Incirlik Air Force Base in Turkey. The prosecution relied heavily on an Arab-American informer who might reduce his own prison sentence for various acts of criminal fraud if a conviction were obtained, and whose testimony against the four suspects evolved dramatically over time. The initial conviction of two of the men, Karim Koubriti and Abdel-Ilah Elmardoudi on charges of giving material support to terrorism, which was hailed as an achievement by the Bush administration, was overturned when the prosecution was discovered to have withheld key exculpatory evidence. In a startling reversal, two members of the prosecuting team were tried for criminal misconduct, and although they were acquitted, their misconduct was not in question. A Detroit judge even apologized to a third man, who was held for three and a half years on a minor fraud charge and then deported. The entire affair raised questions about whether Muslim-Americans could hope for justice if for any reason they got accidentally caught up in the Justice Department’s frantic search for Muslim terror cells on American soil (very few have been found). The flimsy case against the four men would have had no plausibility at all had they been white upper-middle-class residents of Connecticut. Not only has the Justice Department engaged in prosecutorial misconduct with regard to Muslims, but at least one FBI operation also appears to have involved actual entrapment. Narseal Batiste, Patrick Abraham, Burson Augustine, Rothschild Augustine, Stanley Grant Phanor, Naudimar Herrera and Lyglenson Lemorin were arrested in June 2006, and accused of being an al-Qaida cell plotting to blow up the Sears Tower in Chicago. Batiste, aka Brother Naz or Prince Manna, led a small cult in a poor neighborhood of Miami called Seas of David, which was apparently an offshoot of the Moorish Temple Science, an African-American folk religion. The cult mixed themes from Judaism, Christianity and Islam but was not identifiably Muslim. The group met in a warehouse and talked big. The FBI put an informant among them who repeatedly offered them money and equipment for their activities, some of which he appears to have suggested. Batiste maintained in the trial that he was just stringing along the informant in hopes of extracting a promised $50,000, and that he was insincere in pledging allegiance to al-Qaida. When the Justice Department announced the arrest in 2006, the indictment went on about the belief of the group in jihad, or Muslim holy war, but it is a little unlikely that these individuals knew anything about Islam at all. Both attempts to prosecute them ended in mistrials, primarily because the FBI could produce no evidence that when they were arrested they had any weapons or explosives in their possession. They were full of crazy talk, but even some of that was suggested to them by the Department of Justice. Muslim Americans and Arab-Americans, along with members of some other ethnic groups, are therefore understandably alarmed that the Department of Justice may soon have the tools to bring them under investigation without any proof of wrongdoing. As CAIR national legislative director Corey Saylor noted in a statement, "Any new Justice Department guidelines must preserve the presumption of innocence that is the basis of our entire legal system ... Initiating criminal investigations based on racial or religious profiling is both unconstitutional and un-American." Muslim Americans and Arab-Americans have already suffered from being profiled in a de facto sense. Unsurprisingly, to have that injustice become policy concerns them. The protests would be even louder if so many in the community were not afraid to speak up and draw attention to themselves, as one of my Muslim American Facebook correspondents pointed out to me. Another remarked sadly that not only had George W. Bush not brought democracy to the Muslim Middle East, but he had also damaged its prospects in America itself. ------------- Juan Cole teaches Middle Eastern and South Asian history at the University of Michigan. His most recent book Napoleon’s Egypt: Invading the Middle East (New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2007) has just been published. He has appeared widely on television, radio and on op-ed pages as a commentator on Middle East affairs, and has a regular column at Salon.com. He has written, edited, or translated 14 books and has authored 60 journal articles. His weblog on the contemporary Middle East is Informed Comment. Copyright ©2008 Salon Media Group, Inc. From ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in Fri Jul 25 08:32:25 2008 From: ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in (Ranjith Thankappan) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 08:32:25 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] IIM RESERVATION: Kozhikode Shows The Way Message-ID: <45401.28184.qm@web8701.mail.in.yahoo.com> There are many ways. This could be one of them. Dont hesitate to rescue yourself from the narrow brahmanical caste meritocraZy. Say YES to reservation; democratise yourself,;democratise brahmincal indian society let the real talent come to these educational agraharas and make it a better place of higher learning. jai bheem!! http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20060424&fname=Cover+Story+%28F%29&sid=3 Kozhikode Shows The Way A state initiative is imparting Dalit-Adivasis professional skill S. ANAND Much before the nation began debating reservation in IITs and IIMs, a slow revolution had begun unfolding at the Centre for Excellence (CEx) in Kozhikode. Established in June 2002 with the support of the SC/ST development department of the Kerala government, CEx has been under the "incubation" of IIM, Kozhikode. It offers a five-month Certificate Course for Professional Development (CCPD), currently open only to Dalit and Adivasi graduates from Kerala. According to Damodaran Nampoothiri, programme director: "The course is focused towards imparting communication, IT and managerial skills, personality development and entrepreneurship. The students then either opt for higher studies or get jobs in the public and private sectors." The Kerala government subsidises the project entirely and pays each student a Rs 2,000 monthly stipend. In six batches till 2005, a total of 208 Dalit and Adivasi students have passed out of CEx. Of these, 37 have opted for higher studies, 34 have found employment, accounting for a 35 per cent success rate. Some students, such as K.R. Dilraj, have successfully taken the CAT and procured an MBA from IIM, Kozhikode. "Before joining CEx, Dilraj was a court clerk. Today, he earns Rs 8 lakh per annum as bank assurance manager with ICICI Lombard Insurance in Hyderabad," says Nampoothiri. ICICI Lombard recruited Dilraj not because he was an Adivasi. He was just good for the job. CEx believes merit is nothing but the availability of opportunity. An opportunity M.M. Risha of Kozhikode also availed of. She came to CEx in July 2003 with a BTech in Electronics and Communications besides 18 months of experience as lecturer. After the CEx diploma, she completed her MTech and is now systems analyst with Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu in Hyderabad. Her salary of Rs 2.7 lakh per annum may pale in comparison to what IIM toppers get, but factor this: she's the first graduate in her family. "My mother teaches preschool, and father works as a coolie," she says. She acknowledges the significance of CEx in her development: "What we acquired there was not just technical knowledge. We were equipped with analytical skills, ability to interact in discussions and given a booster dose of self-confidence. Crucially, I felt comfortable being with other Dalit-Adivasi students." Says A.R. Vasavi, professor of sociology at the National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, and advisor to CEx: "The quota policy won't work without a focused and targeted programme. The CEx package is tailored to specific needs of students. What's the point if IIMs take Dalit-Adivasi students and neglect them? CEx accomplishes in five months what other institutes can't in three years." Vasavi appreciates that the CCPD gives young Dalits and Adivasis a sense of citizenship and tackles issues like stigma via counselling. O.C. Geetha, a 2004 batch alumnus, now with Infosys Technologies in Thiruvananthapuram, says CEx instilled confidence in her. "Specifically, William H. Mackaden, a faculty member. For the first time, on his insistence, I participated in an English-language drama. Schooled in Walapad village, Thrissur, I wasn't confident because of my rural background. I knew the language, but was afraid of expressing myself." Post-CEx, Geetha, an electronics grad, did well in the Cochin University MBA entrance and also landed the Infosys job. "I preferred the job as my father had just retired." Geetha also adds that their Sunday interactions with IIM-K students were crucial. "Being on the IIM campus, though apart from it, gave us access to MBA students who were very supportive." With the three-year incubation period at IIM-K coming to an end, CEx has sought the support of the SC/ST development department to turn into an autonomous institution called the Centre for Research and Education for Social Transformation (crest). Says Amarnath H.Kalro, IIM-K's director when CEx was conceptualised: "CEx was started in response to a specific request from the Kerala government to help SC/ST students. Its model can and should be duplicated by all IIMs. After the incubation, they can become independent." Given that IIMs and IITs have been unable to fulfil the 22.5 per cent Dalit-Adivasi quota, Kalro thinks there's need for such centres in every state. "Most states have coaching centres for civil services aspirants among SCs and STs. I wonder why similar efforts are lacking when it comes to IITs and IIMs." -- " The so called caste-hindus are bitterly opposed to the depressed class using a public tank not because they really believe that the water will be thereby spoiled or will evaporate but because they are afraid of losing their superiority of caste and of equality being established between the former and the latter. We are resorting to this satyagraha not becasue we believe that the water of this particular tank has any exceptional qualities, but to establish our natural rights as citizens and human beings." - Dr B.R. Ambedkar, Mahad Satyagraha Conference, December 25th , 1927 --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Our Media" group. To post to this group, send email to our-media at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to our-media-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/our-media?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- -- Ranjit From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/ From blauloretta at yahoo.com Fri Jul 25 09:19:30 2008 From: blauloretta at yahoo.com (Gustaff Harriman Iskandar) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:49:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Helar Festival | 19 July - 30 August 2008 | Bandung - Indonesia In-Reply-To: <48886758.5090509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <902665.38165.qm@web51007.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Apologies for cross posting, helar.festival.2008.bdg aims to cultivate the emerging practice in contemporary creative culture both in local and global context. Being rise within the mediated global and local environments, helar.festival.2008.bdg incorporate various activities and programs that are presenting a wide selection of creative work in the field of music, film, art, architecture, media, design, public art, traditional culture & heritage. It engages the local creative scene with global audience to challenges the common notion on contemporary culture and its creative practice today. More info please visit: http://helarfest.com/ Regards, - Gustaff From krishnanrr at rediffmail.com Fri Jul 25 12:07:08 2008 From: krishnanrr at rediffmail.com (Radhakrishnan) Date: 25 Jul 2008 06:37:08 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] > 4. American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic Terrorism Message-ID: <20080725063708.27124.qmail@f4mail-235-146.rediffmail.com> Dear All, I am at loss to understand why there has been a systematic campaign and use of abusive language mocking at people based on their birth, ethnicity etc. Logically speaking Upper caste since last 30 years doesn't mean Brahmins in Tamilnad where Dalits are hounded by non Brahmin Upper Caste some of whom are classified as OBCs though there is no indicator to highlight their social or economic backwardness. So is the case in states like Uttar Pradesh.Instead of certain city based anglicised writers kindly try to seek opinion from Dalit thinkers and writiers (15% SC and 7% ST)So if it some research scholars are writing then kindly exercise caution. Secondly why the problem of casteism is being taken out of context for addressing other issues. WHy should brahmanism or even brahmins be targetted for the prevailing inequality among Christian, Muslims and Buddhist societies. One does convert to other faith and certainly exercise conversion as moral weapon as Baba saheb exercised this choice. After all Indian social order can't be the referece point to address the xenophobic tendencies in Europe vis a vis the Turks, Kurdish people, the deeply embedded prejudices against the Afro-Americans in the US (Mohammad Ali from Cassius Clay, the Rosa Parks, Rodney King episode etc). Finally why Hindu and Islamic religion are so selectively targetted for religious extremism. In India we are witness to Hindu or Islamic communalism/fundamentalism and not fascism.Earlier we had witnessed Sikh extremism for some time during 1980-1990.There are also pockets of Christian fundamentalism (kerala, Naga extremism etc)in the country but certainly quite small in propotion compared to Hindu and Muslim communalism. One could avoid these colonial obsession with western terminologies. After all how would one address issues of internal colonialism within India and misgovernance. Ther has been upteen no of cases where in so called cosmopolitan cities like Delhi people from Northeast, South are mocked at, their intellect lampooned on the baseis of their appearance and colour. Is it also a classic example of Hindu brahmanism! Radhakrishnan >Message: 4 >Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:34:16 -0700 (PDT) > From: Kshmendra Kaul >Subject: [Reader-list] American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic > Terrorism >To: sarai list >Message-ID: <999742.76199.qm at web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >Just thinking aloud. > >One often comes across people (on SARAI and elsewhere) that can see: > >- Imperialism as the defining aspect of the Americans/USA (usually to the exclusion of all else) > >- Brahmanism as the defining aspect of Hindus/Hinduism (usually to the exclusion of all else) > >- Terrorism as the defining aspect of Muslims/Islam (usually to the exclusion of all else) > >These are just 3 examples. > >In a curious sort of way such sets of people (whichever their favourite 'hate' might be) are alike in the manner in which they view things. Their 'obsessiveness' clouds their intellect and ability to look at things in context. > >Just a thought. > >Kshmendra Cell - 9818063517 From ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in Fri Jul 25 12:29:26 2008 From: ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in (Ranjith Thankappan) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:29:26 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] satvik gurus and their KARMA !! Message-ID: <6933.40426.qm@web8702.mail.in.yahoo.com> Godmen and Mortal World Happenings at Asaram Bapu's Ashram  Ram Puniyani  Death of two students of Gurukul (traditional schools run by Hindu Gurus) of Asaram Bapu's Ashram (July 2008) has raised multiple questions. The children staying in the Ashram were missing for some time before being found dead near the river. The post mortem showed that some of their organs are missing. The parents of the children accused the Ashram residents for practicing black magic and removing children's organs. Asaram in reply said that the residents of his ashram hear Bhagvat and other holy books, how they can be involved in such an act and that they won't even kill a dog. Later two related events took place. One, when Asaram had to travel by air and as a part of security drill he was frisked second time, a random check applied some times, his followers created ruckus. The listeners of Bhagvat etc. rampaged and expressed their anger for the Holy man being subjected to the mundane rules. Also the same ashramites attacked the journalists, severely beating up a woman journalist, who had to be hospitalized. So much for the Bhagvat induced tolerant attitude!  This holy man has lot of other incidents to his account. In Jhabua area his female Sadhvis beat up the nuns in the Christian mission school when a 13year old girl was raped and killed by an outsider, who had nothing to do with the school. The same Holy seer sat on protest dharana when Shankaracharya was arrested on the charges, which were far from divine. An act of solidarity indeed! An FIR has also been filed against him for grabbing one and a half acre of land in Patna. He has a vast network of devotees and followers, even his disciples are giving pravachans (holy discourse), keeping his photo in the backdrop. He is in the race for the most popular Goodman, along with Sri Sri Ravishaker, Baba Ramdeo amongst others. His is not an isolated case. While these three top Godmen are very visible, they are not the only ones. This phenomenon is sprawling and one can see them mushrooming every where with ever increasing following. Recently in Kerala one Godman created scene when arrested by police. Shakarachraya's Ashram also showed lot of muck in its cupboard. Surely this is the most proliferating phenomenon in recent times marching parallel with increase in the religiosity and might of RSS at social and political level.  There are types and types of godmen but still one can say that majority of them are politically close to the RSS/VHP/BJP combine. Asaram Bapu sat on dharana along with Vajpayee et al and recently. Sri Sri Ravishanker and Baba Ramdeo were all praises for Advani while releasing his autobiography, which justifies the politics of Hate and his own role in that. They subtly spread the message that minorities are violent as they consume meat etc. forgetting that the most violent person of all the time Hitler was a vegetarian. And the followers of these Godmen are mercurial in their temper and aggressive in their stance. Another such 'Holy man, Narendra Mahraj's followers also created trouble when he was not permitted to carry his holy staff in the aeroplane. They were also involved in the attack on nuns in Alibaug, these nuns were doing the AIDS awareness work and that was presented as 'conversion' a pretext enough to beat them up. When these Godmen are giving such peaceful sermons and eating satvik food, (food creating peaceful tendencies as per them), how are they so violent? According to traditional system of medicine type of food determines the nature of man. So Muslims the meat eaters are violent the vegetarian Hindu are tolerant, that's how the social common sense says here. This has been the part of demonization of Muslims. Violence is due to the ideas and underlying premises of the teachings they imbibe. They listen to the exclusionary discourse, Hindus are under threat is part of the preaching of many of these and some of them are deliberately planted in Adivasi areas to scare the Christian missionaries away. Lakkhanand in Orissa and Aseemanand in Dangs, Gujarat are two examples of that. They have been attacking the missionary work in the area of education and health. Incidentally in these areas around Christmas time, attacks are organized against churches and priests.  Along with the adverse effects of globalization the rise of these Holy men can clearly be seen. One was surprised to note that some of these Babas, (holy men) claiming to renounce the worldly goods are extremely prosperous themselves and have such a rich clientele that they can undertake an expensive month long luxury cruise along with these holy people and listen to the divine discourse in the midst of sea waves. Also there is a very impressive self designed dress code for the men of God. While one need understand this phenomenon at deeper level what can be said off hand is that their ashrams and activities should be within the parameters of law, subject to the usual checks and balances of a civic society. In case of Brinda Karat raising questions about the composition of medicines being produced by his factory, Baba' followers were aghast as to how can ordinary mortal raise such question about the Baba. To assert that the laws of the land should not be applied to them cannot be acceptable in society and polity. To reduce the fraud which is seeping in many of these Ashrams, it will be worth its while to inculcate voluntary social audit, based on ethical values and laws of Indian society. All those involved in the death of these children and beating up of journalists must be subjected to the punishment due to them. One has seen many a types of saints. During medieval period the Bhakti and Sufi saints stood for reform of society, emphasized on moral values of religion and included all in the fold of their community. They talked against blind faith and emphasized on the unity of all human beings. That's why we see that people cutting across religions flocked them. Today it seems that a large genre of those wearing holy robes are revivalists, pushing back the social values and exclusionary in their approach to the society. Their main focus is on giving calm and tranquility to the affluent, to be close to those with money and power. They are mute against the evil practices of untouchability, bride burning and manifest caste system.  Their association with politics of RSS combine clearly gives an indication as to how they prepare the ground for their societal agenda. We do need to emphasize on reform of the society, to look at dogmas and blind faith critically and to ensure that society develops in a humane direction. Some of them dish out the RSS ideology in a more sophisticated way, with the halo of divine sermon. While one appreciates their social welfare work, one will like that transparency is brought into their operations and medicines they produce should be regulated by the laws of the land. Can one expect that the tragic incidents of Asaram's Ashram will open our eyes to be more vigilant about their deeds?   -- Issues in Secular Politics July 2008 II For circulation. --ram.puniyani at gmail.com,    www.pluralindia.com   -- geedha --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "grey youth movement" group.  To post to this group, send email to grey-youth-movement at googlegroups.com  To unsubscribe from this group, send email to grey-youth-movement-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com  For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/grey-youth-movement?hl=en-GB -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/ From machleetank at gmail.com Thu Jul 24 19:36:22 2008 From: machleetank at gmail.com (Jasmeen Patheja) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:06:22 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Blank Noise Spectators Special In-Reply-To: <277f58b70807240526s323761cai9b4a6af7ea7e38e@mail.gmail.com> References: <277f58b70807240526s323761cai9b4a6af7ea7e38e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello, Blank Noise announcement: With this email announcement we start another event that calls for your time, thoughts and action. The public on the street comprises of those who 'experience' street sexual harassment, i.e. the survivors; those who cause street sexual harassment i.e the perpetrators and those who witness street sexual harassment i.e the spectators. Our very own stat counter on the right hand bar of the page says that 22% of the Blank Noise blog visitors are spectators. Now its your turn to speak! Most cases of street sexual violence go unnoticed because they are intangible , can be doubted as 'accidental brush/ touch' ( strictly in the Indian context). More often than not the survivor feels embarrassment and shame for being sexually violated and does not wish to draw further attention. Some survivors of street sexual violence don't seek public support because of the fear that 'the public' may not always show support, act indifferent, or be one more face in the crowd watching the scene. Blank Noise Spectators Special asks members of the public, both men and women to share what they witnessed. What was your first reaction? Was it to intervene? Was it to ignore? What did you do? What would you rather have done? Can you share your thoughts about being a spectator. If you have been a 'special spectator' , that is, intervened in the situation, please tell us how! Was it with wit and humor? Or did physically assault the 'perpetrator'? Did you walk away? Or call the cops? Or gather a crowd? Or see another spectator take charge of the situation and participate in any way. To participate in this online event please register by emailing us at blurtblanknoise at gmail dot com subject titled Blank Noise Spectators Special. Link this post to your blog, and send in your blog address. We will add you to the list below. Deadline for your post on being a spectator is August 15th. This event hopes to be one in the series of events planned in bringing together 'survivors'(http://blanknoiseactionheroes.blogspot.com), ' perpetrators' (male only event coming soon) and 'spectators'. In spirit! Blank Noise Team -- BLANK NOISE http://blog.blanknoise.org mobile: 0091 98868 40612 Add a Blank Noise button to your blog ! Copy paste the code below- Blank Noise -- http:blog.blanknoise.org http:blanknoiseactionheroes.blogspot.com mob: 0091 98868 40612 -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From wonton_warriorprincess at yahoo.com Fri Jul 25 14:06:55 2008 From: wonton_warriorprincess at yahoo.com (hasina hasan) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:06:55 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic Terrorism Message-ID: <621041.51247.qm@web94711.mail.in2.yahoo.com> with no offense to myself, and trying to not be offensive here..as one can hardly keep from taking things personally what with being a person to begin with, i had to say. i have a mixed lineage of muslims, buddhists, tibetans, chinese and indians to name a few.  what/who do i hate and who and what do i stand up for today? for i dont fall into any of the below mentioned sets generally. and then again perhaps i'm all of them altogether. hard to fill in the blank, it's hard to point within. what are your own views? what set of person are you? that would have been an interesting though not mandatory appendage to your thoughts aloud. or maybe just maybe, like me, you are too: an Über person. --- On Thu, 24/7/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: From: Kshmendra Kaul Subject: [Reader-list] American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic Terrorism To: "sarai list" Date: Thursday, 24 July, 2008, 6:34 AM Just thinking aloud.   One often comes across people (on SARAI and elsewhere) that can see:   - Imperialism as the defining aspect of the Americans/USA (usually to the exclusion of all else)   - Brahmanism as the defining aspect of Hindus/Hinduism (usually to the exclusion of all else)   - Terrorism as the defining aspect of Muslims/Islam (usually to the exclusion of all else)   These are just 3 examples.   In a curious sort of way such sets of people (whichever their favourite 'hate' might be) are alike in the manner in which they view things. Their 'obsessiveness' clouds their intellect and ability to look at things in context.    Just a thought.   Kshmendra _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/ From tapasrayx at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 16:11:03 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 06:41:03 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic Terrorism In-Reply-To: <621041.51247.qm@web94711.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <621041.51247.qm@web94711.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4889ADBF.20303@gmail.com> Hasina, I think you are more fortunate than most people on this list. There's some variety in your life. Instead of sticking to the same object of hate every single day of the week, you can pick a different one, or a different combination, for each day. Like those people who wear a different colour for each day, or a different watch. But you will never get there if you use your head. So remember to fill your head with a few slogans of your choice with your first cup of tea or coffee each morning. That way your ability to think will not come in the way. Tapas hasina hasan wrote: > with no offense to myself, and trying to not be offensive here..as one can hardly keep from taking things personally what with being a person to begin with, > i had to say. > > i have a mixed lineage of muslims, buddhists, tibetans, chinese and indians to name a few. what/who do i hate and who and what do i stand up for today? for i dont fall into any of the below mentioned sets generally. and then again perhaps i'm all of them altogether. hard to fill in the blank, > > it's hard to point within. > > what are your own views? what set of person are you? that would have been an interesting though not mandatory appendage to your thoughts aloud. > > or maybe just maybe, like me, you are too: an Über person. > > --- On Thu, 24/7/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Just thinking aloud. > > One often comes across people (on SARAI and elsewhere) that can see: > > - Imperialism as the defining aspect of the Americans/USA (usually to the > exclusion of all else) > > - Brahmanism as the defining aspect of Hindus/Hinduism (usually to the > exclusion of all else) > > - Terrorism as the defining aspect of Muslims/Islam (usually to the exclusion > of all else) > > These are just 3 examples. > > In a > curious sort of way such sets of people (whichever their favourite > 'hate' might be) are alike in the manner in which they view things. > Their 'obsessiveness' clouds their intellect and ability to look at > things in context. > > Just a thought. > > Kshmendra > From rajeshr at csds.in Fri Jul 25 17:26:36 2008 From: rajeshr at csds.in (Rajesh Ramakrishnan) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:26:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=60Analysis_of_the_Karnataka_Elect?= =?windows-1252?q?ion_Results=92-_James_Manor=2C_CSDS=2C_1st_August?= =?windows-1252?q?=2C_2=3A30_PM?= Message-ID: Friday, 1st August, 2008 You are invited to a talk on: `Analysis of the Karnataka Election Results' By James Manor at 2:30 PM in the Seminar Hall, CSDS, 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi – 110 054 Professor James Manor is Emeka Anyaoku Chair in Commonwealth Studies at the Institute of Commonwealth Studies, School of Advanced Study, University of London. Earlier, he was a Professorial Fellow at the Institute of Development Studies at Sussex, and VKRV Rao Endowment Professor at the Institute for Social and Economic Change in Bangalore. He has held positions at the Universities of Leicester, London, Harvard, Sussex and Yale. He was the Director of the Institute of Commonwealth Studies for four years during the 1990s. Professor Manor specialises in the study of politics and state-society relations, mainly in South and East Asia. He has published several books including Aid that Works: Successful Development Programs in Fragile States (World Bank, 2006), Democracy & Decentralisation in South Asia & West Africa: Participation, Accountability and Performance (with Richard Crook) (Cambridge University Press, 1998), Nehru to the Nineties: the Changing Office of Prime Minister in India (Penguin/Hurst, 1994), Power, Poverty and Poison: Disaster and Response in an Indian City (Sage: 1993) and Rethinking Third World Politics (Longman, 1991). A forthcoming book is (with Marcus Melo and Njuguna N'gethe) Against the Odds: Politicians, Institutions and the Struggle against Poverty. From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Jul 25 19:59:00 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 19:29:00 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic Terrorism In-Reply-To: <4889ADBF.20303@gmail.com> References: <621041.51247.qm@web94711.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <4889ADBF.20303@gmail.com> Message-ID: Haseena, that exactly is the issue, in the thoughts of Sarvepally Radhakrishnan, as he says, (wo)Man has learnt to fly like a bird, swim like a fish, but has failed to live like a human.? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tapas Ray Date: Friday, July 25, 2008 4:12 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism,Islamic Terrorism Cc: sarai list > Hasina, > > I think you are more fortunate than most people on this list. > There's > some variety in your life. Instead of sticking to the same object > of > hate every single day of the week, you can pick a different one, > or a > different combination, for each day. Like those people who wear a > different colour for each day, or a different watch. But you will > never > get there if you use your head. So remember to fill your head with > a few > slogans of your choice with your first cup of tea or coffee > each > morning. That way your ability to think will not come in the way. > > Tapas > > > > hasina hasan wrote: > > with no offense to myself, and trying to not be offensive > here..as one can hardly keep from taking things personally what > with being a person to begin with, > > i had to say. > > > > i have a mixed lineage of muslims, buddhists, tibetans, chinese > and indians to name a few. what/who do i hate and who and what do > i stand up for today? for i dont fall into any of the below > mentioned sets generally. and then again perhaps i'm all of them > altogether. hard to fill in the blank, > > > > it's hard to point within. > > > > what are your own views? what set of person are you? that would > have been an interesting though not mandatory appendage to your > thoughts aloud. > > > > or maybe just maybe, like me, you are too: an Über person. > > > > --- On Thu, 24/7/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > Just thinking aloud. > > > > One often comes across people (on SARAI and elsewhere) that can see: > > > > - Imperialism as the defining aspect of the Americans/USA > (usually to the > > exclusion of all else) > > > > - Brahmanism as the defining aspect of Hindus/Hinduism (usually > to the > > exclusion of all else) > > > > - Terrorism as the defining aspect of Muslims/Islam (usually to > the exclusion > > of all else) > > > > These are just 3 examples. > > > > In a > > curious sort of way such sets of people (whichever their favourite > > 'hate' might be) are alike in the manner in which they view things. > > Their 'obsessiveness' clouds their intellect and ability to look at > > things in context. > > > > Just a thought. > > > > Kshmendra > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Jul 25 20:03:40 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 19:33:40 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=60Analysis_of_the_Karnataka_Elect?= =?windows-1252?q?ion_Results=92-_James_Manor=2C_CSDS=2C_1st_August=2C_2?= =?windows-1252?q?=3A30_PM?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Now that it is post martem of the results of Karnataka elections, it is sincerely hoped that it is not co;oured like the pre poll survey of CNNIBN and Yogendra Yadav, who preferred to manipulate the statstics to please the delhi boss, oh, sorry delhi mafiosi, madam,? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rajesh Ramakrishnan Date: Friday, July 25, 2008 5:27 pm Subject: [Reader-list] `Analysis of the Karnataka Election Results’- James Manor, CSDS, 1st August, 2:30 PM To: reader-list at sarai.net > Friday, 1st August, 2008 > > You are invited to a talk on: > > > `Analysis of the Karnataka Election Results' > > By James Manor > > at 2:30 PM in the Seminar Hall, CSDS, 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi – 110 054 > > > Professor James Manor is Emeka Anyaoku Chair in Commonwealth Studies > at the Institute of Commonwealth Studies, School of Advanced Study, > University of London. Earlier, he was a Professorial Fellow at the > Institute of Development Studies at Sussex, and VKRV Rao Endowment > Professor at the Institute for Social and Economic Change in > Bangalore. He has held positions at the Universities of Leicester, > London, Harvard, Sussex and Yale. He was the Director of the Institute > of Commonwealth Studies for four years during the 1990s. > > Professor Manor specialises in the study of politics and state-society > relations, mainly in South and East Asia. He has published several > books including Aid that Works: Successful Development Programs in > Fragile States (World Bank, 2006), Democracy & Decentralisation in > South Asia & West Africa: Participation, Accountability and > Performance (with Richard Crook) (Cambridge University Press, 1998), > Nehru to the Nineties: the Changing Office of Prime Minister in India > (Penguin/Hurst, 1994), Power, Poverty and Poison: Disaster and > Response in an Indian City (Sage: 1993) and Rethinking Third World > Politics (Longman, 1991). A forthcoming book is (with Marcus Melo and > Njuguna N'gethe) Against the Odds: Politicians, Institutions and the > Struggle against Poverty. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 20:10:30 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 20:10:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=60Analysis_of_the_Karnataka_Elect?= =?windows-1252?q?ion_Results=92-_James_Manor=2C_CSDS=2C_1st_August?= =?windows-1252?q?=2C_2=3A30_PM?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32144e990807250740m280d1249oc80ab78a94c2881e@mail.gmail.com> Dear Radhikarajen, You seem to have this strange hatred of the INC that seems to hit you like a wave and blind you from any logic where the party is concerned. Logic (and sadly, language & grammer as well) flies out of the window and all that comes out is a flow of acid. Would suggest you look at what you are writing where, and the relevance of it. There were some earlier postings of yours that I used to atleast enjoy reading, but the recent ones are pretty incoherent. Rgds, Partha ................................. On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 8:03 PM, wrote: > Now that it is post martem of the results of Karnataka elections, it is > sincerely hoped that it is not co;oured like the pre poll survey of CNNIBN > and Yogendra Yadav, who preferred to manipulate the statstics to please the > delhi boss, oh, sorry delhi mafiosi, madam,? > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rajesh Ramakrishnan > Date: Friday, July 25, 2008 5:27 pm > Subject: [Reader-list] `Analysis of the Karnataka Election Results'- James > Manor, CSDS, 1st August, 2:30 PM > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Friday, 1st August, 2008 > > > > You are invited to a talk on: > > > > > > `Analysis of the Karnataka Election Results' > > > > By James Manor > > > > at 2:30 PM in the Seminar Hall, CSDS, 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi – 110 054 > > > > > > Professor James Manor is Emeka Anyaoku Chair in Commonwealth Studies > > at the Institute of Commonwealth Studies, School of Advanced Study, > > University of London. Earlier, he was a Professorial Fellow at the > > Institute of Development Studies at Sussex, and VKRV Rao Endowment > > Professor at the Institute for Social and Economic Change in > > Bangalore. He has held positions at the Universities of Leicester, > > London, Harvard, Sussex and Yale. He was the Director of the Institute > > of Commonwealth Studies for four years during the 1990s. > > > > Professor Manor specialises in the study of politics and state-society > > relations, mainly in South and East Asia. He has published several > > books including Aid that Works: Successful Development Programs in > > Fragile States (World Bank, 2006), Democracy & Decentralisation in > > South Asia & West Africa: Participation, Accountability and > > Performance (with Richard Crook) (Cambridge University Press, 1998), > > Nehru to the Nineties: the Changing Office of Prime Minister in India > > (Penguin/Hurst, 1994), Power, Poverty and Poison: Disaster and > > Response in an Indian City (Sage: 1993) and Rethinking Third World > > Politics (Longman, 1991). A forthcoming book is (with Marcus Melo and > > Njuguna N'gethe) Against the Odds: Politicians, Institutions and the > > Struggle against Poverty. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Jul 25 20:10:40 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 19:40:40 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] satvik gurus and their KARMA !! In-Reply-To: <6933.40426.qm@web8702.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <6933.40426.qm@web8702.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Well, well, well, it is amusing that you take such high moral grounds about gurus and their sathvik actions or inactions or bad actions of selective faith, let it be remembered that Sister Abhaya was raped and murdered at the young age by another sathvik priest in Kerala in a seminary. Let us also refresh our memory about a" Guha" actively sponsored by a political party just to secure the votes of a sadhu who believes in murder and rape of his followers, has active body guards with over 500 gun licenses sanctioned during the rule of a CM who is very secular.! And ofcourse there are many instances of Benny hinn and alike, in Kerala, where a priest is now being hauled up for his family trusts for thousands of crores, and a missionary in Andhra who has hundreds of acres of land for sermons.!, thanks to Yesudas rajashekar reddy, very secular indeed.! Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ranjith Thankappan Date: Friday, July 25, 2008 12:30 pm Subject: [Reader-list] satvik gurus and their KARMA !! To: sarai > Godmen and Mortal World > Happenings at Asaram Bapu's Ashram  > Ram Puniyani >  Death of two students of Gurukul (traditional schools run by > Hindu Gurus) of Asaram Bapu's Ashram (July 2008) has raised > multiple questions. The children staying in the Ashram were > missing for some time before being found dead near the river. The > post mortem showed that some of their organs are missing. The > parents of the children accused the Ashram residents for > practicing black magic and removing children's organs. Asaram in > reply said that the residents of his ashram hear Bhagvat and other > holy books, how they can be involved in such an act and that they > won't even kill a dog. Later two related events took place. One, > when Asaram had to travel by air and as a part of security drill > he was frisked second time, a random check applied some times, his > followers created ruckus. The listeners of Bhagvat etc. rampaged > and expressed their anger for the Holy man being subjected to the > mundane rules. Also the same ashramites attacked the journalists, > severely beating up a woman journalist, who had to be > hospitalized. So much for the Bhagvat induced tolerant attitude! >  This holy man has lot of other incidents to his account. In > Jhabua area his female Sadhvis beat up the nuns in the Christian > mission school when a 13year old girl was raped and killed by an > outsider, who had nothing to do with the school. The same Holy > seer sat on protest dharana when Shankaracharya was arrested on > the charges, which were far from divine. An act of solidarity > indeed! An FIR has also been filed against him for grabbing one > and a half acre of land in Patna. He has a vast network of > devotees and followers, even his disciples are giving pravachans > (holy discourse), keeping his photo in the backdrop. He is in the > race for the most popular Goodman, along with Sri Sri Ravishaker, > Baba Ramdeo amongst others. > His is not an isolated case. While these three top Godmen are very > visible, they are not the only ones. This phenomenon is sprawling > and one can see them mushrooming every where with ever increasing > following. Recently in Kerala one Godman created scene when > arrested by police. Shakarachraya's Ashram also showed lot of muck > in its cupboard. Surely this is the most proliferating phenomenon > in recent times marching parallel with increase in the religiosity > and might of RSS at social and political level. >  There are types and types of godmen but still one can say that > majority of them are politically close to the RSS/VHP/BJP combine. > Asaram Bapu sat on dharana along with Vajpayee et al and recently. > Sri Sri Ravishanker and Baba Ramdeo were all praises for Advani > while releasing his autobiography, which justifies the politics of > Hate and his own role in that. They subtly spread the message that > minorities are violent as they consume meat etc. forgetting that > the most violent person of all the time Hitler was a vegetarian. > And the followers of these Godmen are mercurial in their temper > and aggressive in their stance. Another such 'Holy man, Narendra > Mahraj's followers also created trouble when he was not permitted > to carry his holy staff in the aeroplane. They were also involved > in the attack on nuns in Alibaug, these nuns were doing the AIDS > awareness work and that was presented as 'conversion' a pretext > enough to beat them up. > When these Godmen are giving such peaceful sermons and eating > satvik food, (food creating peaceful tendencies as per them), how > are they so violent? According to traditional system of medicine > type of food determines the nature of man. So Muslims the meat > eaters are violent the vegetarian Hindu are tolerant, that's how > the social common sense says here. This has been the part of > demonization of Muslims. Violence is due to the ideas and > underlying premises of the teachings they imbibe. They listen to > the exclusionary discourse, Hindus are under threat is part of the > preaching of many of these and some of them are deliberately > planted in Adivasi areas to scare the Christian missionaries away. > Lakkhanand in Orissa and Aseemanand in Dangs, Gujarat are two > examples of that. They have been attacking the missionary work in > the area of education and health. Incidentally in these areas > around Christmas time, attacks are organized against churches and > priests. >  Along with the adverse effects of globalization the rise of these > Holy men can clearly be seen. One was surprised to note that some > of these Babas, (holy men) claiming to renounce the worldly goods > are extremely prosperous themselves and have such a rich clientele > that they can undertake an expensive month long luxury cruise > along with these holy people and listen to the divine discourse in > the midst of sea waves. Also there is a very impressive self > designed dress code for the men of God. While one need understand > this phenomenon at deeper level what can be said off hand is that > their ashrams and activities should be within the parameters of > law, subject to the usual checks and balances of a civic society. > In case of Brinda Karat raising questions about the composition of > medicines being produced by his factory, Baba' followers were > aghast as to how can ordinary mortal raise such question about the > Baba. To assert that the laws of the land should not > be applied to them cannot be acceptable in society and polity. To > reduce the fraud which is seeping in many of these Ashrams, it > will be worth its while to inculcate voluntary social audit, based > on ethical values and laws of Indian society. All those involved > in the death of these children and beating up of journalists must > be subjected to the punishment due to them. > One has seen many a types of saints. During medieval period the > Bhakti and Sufi saints stood for reform of society, emphasized on > moral values of religion and included all in the fold of their > community. They talked against blind faith and emphasized on the > unity of all human beings. That's why we see that people cutting > across religions flocked them. Today it seems that a large genre > of those wearing holy robes are revivalists, pushing back the > social values and exclusionary in their approach to the society. > Their main focus is on giving calm and tranquility to the > affluent, to be close to those with money and power. They are mute > against the evil practices of untouchability, bride burning and > manifest caste system. >  Their association with politics of RSS combine clearly gives an > indication as to how they prepare the ground for their societal > agenda. We do need to emphasize on reform of the society, to look > at dogmas and blind faith critically and to ensure that society > develops in a humane direction. Some of them dish out the RSS > ideology in a more sophisticated way, with the halo of divine > sermon. While one appreciates their social welfare work, one will > like that transparency is brought into their operations and > medicines they produce should be regulated by the laws of the > land. Can one expect that the tragic incidents of Asaram's Ashram > will open our eyes to be more vigilant about their deeds? >   > -- > Issues in Secular Politics > July 2008 II > For circulation. > --ram.puniyani at gmail.com,    www.pluralindia.com >   > > > > -- > geedha > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "grey youth movement" group. >  To post to this group, send email to grey-youth- > movement at googlegroups.com >  To unsubscribe from this group, send email to grey-youth-movement- > unsubscribe at googlegroups.com >  For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/grey-youth-movement?hl=en-GB > -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- > > > From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Go > to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Jul 25 20:17:29 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 19:47:29 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=60Analysis_of_the_Karnataka_Elect?= =?windows-1252?q?ion_Results=92-_James_Manor=2C_CSDS=2C_1st_August=2C_2?= =?windows-1252?q?=3A30_PM?= In-Reply-To: <32144e990807250740m280d1249oc80ab78a94c2881e@mail.gmail.com> References: <32144e990807250740m280d1249oc80ab78a94c2881e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: For me INC is dead when emergency took over the citizens and their rights, then came the slogan shouters brigade, sidelining , nay totally dismantling the Sevadal, which was a disciplined , loyal to society, secular force of volanteers which was instrumental in service to citizens, feed back to leaders on the progress of the policies and their implementation at grass root level. Now you can see prince in waiting getting his volanteers from Delhi in white kurta pyjamas, gandhi topis for every occassion as cheer group for payment. Hope you have seen the visuals of "marching " youth for success of vote as trust is lost. or in Gujarath for electioneering.! Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Partha Dasgupta Date: Friday, July 25, 2008 8:10 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] `Analysis of the Karnataka Election Results’- James Manor, CSDS, 1st August, 2:30 PM To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear Radhikarajen, > > You seem to have this strange hatred of the INC that seems to hit > you like a > wave and blind you from any logic where the party is concerned. > Logic (and > sadly, language & grammer as well) flies out of the window and all > thatcomes out is a flow of acid. > > Would suggest you look at what you are writing where, and the > relevance of > it. > > There were some earlier postings of yours that I used to atleast enjoy > reading, but the recent ones are pretty incoherent. > > Rgds, Partha > ................................. > > On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 8:03 PM, wrote: > > > Now that it is post martem of the results of Karnataka > elections, it is > > sincerely hoped that it is not co;oured like the pre poll survey > of CNNIBN > > and Yogendra Yadav, who preferred to manipulate the statstics to > please the > > delhi boss, oh, sorry delhi mafiosi, madam,? > > > > Regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Rajesh Ramakrishnan > > Date: Friday, July 25, 2008 5:27 pm > > Subject: [Reader-list] `Analysis of the Karnataka Election > Results'- James > > Manor, CSDS, 1st August, 2:30 PM > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > Friday, 1st August, 2008 > > > > > > You are invited to a talk on: > > > > > > > > > `Analysis of the Karnataka Election Results' > > > > > > By James Manor > > > > > > at 2:30 PM in the Seminar Hall, CSDS, 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi – > 110 054 > > > > > > > > > Professor James Manor is Emeka Anyaoku Chair in Commonwealth > Studies> > at the Institute of Commonwealth Studies, School of > Advanced Study, > > > University of London. Earlier, he was a Professorial Fellow at the > > > Institute of Development Studies at Sussex, and VKRV Rao Endowment > > > Professor at the Institute for Social and Economic Change in > > > Bangalore. He has held positions at the Universities of Leicester, > > > London, Harvard, Sussex and Yale. He was the Director of the > Institute> > of Commonwealth Studies for four years during the 1990s. > > > > > > Professor Manor specialises in the study of politics and state- > society> > relations, mainly in South and East Asia. He has > published several > > > books including Aid that Works: Successful Development > Programs in > > > Fragile States (World Bank, 2006), Democracy & > Decentralisation in > > > South Asia & West Africa: Participation, Accountability and > > > Performance (with Richard Crook) (Cambridge University Press, > 1998),> > Nehru to the Nineties: the Changing Office of Prime > Minister in India > > > (Penguin/Hurst, 1994), Power, Poverty and Poison: Disaster and > > > Response in an Indian City (Sage: 1993) and Rethinking Third World > > > Politics (Longman, 1991). A forthcoming book is (with Marcus > Melo and > > > Njuguna N'gethe) Against the Odds: Politicians, Institutions > and the > > > Struggle against Poverty. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > From press at tank.tv Fri Jul 25 20:46:15 2008 From: press at tank.tv (tank.tv press) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:16:15 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] www.tank.tv : tank.tv at Tate Modern 19.09.08 - 21.09.08 In-Reply-To: <78c84f090807250607g17116ed4l2ee8c2c94b1d1b4@mail.gmail.com> References: <78c84f090807250607g17116ed4l2ee8c2c94b1d1b4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <78c84f090807250816l2c9f3c8fl1b649a1d21151d8a@mail.gmail.com> www.tank.tv *tank.tv at Tate Modern Friday 19 September – Sunday 21 September 2008* tank.tv has the pleasure of holding a weekend of screenings from its 2008 Guest Curators Programme. www.tank.tv invited some of the world's foremost curators of artist's film and video to create exhibitions exclusively for its online platform. Four of these shows have been re-thought and re-constructed specifically for screening at Tate Modern. Book now! *Ken Jacobs Return to the Scene of the Crime Friday 19 September 2008, 19.00* The weekend begins with experimental filmmaker Ken Jacobs' *Return to the Scene of the Crime* : "The heartwarming story of a boy who didn't know it's wrong to steal. Running off with the pig seemed like a good idea at the time." In a contemporary riff on one of his landmark works Ken Jacobs uses new technology to both interrogate and arouse a theatrical tableau, shot in 1905, based on Hogarth's Southwark Fair. *The Young and Evil Curated by Stuart Comer Saturday 20 September 2008, 19.00* The digital glow of the internet has largely replaced the dark space of the cinema as the site where furtive desires are first expressed and encountered on flickering screens. *The Young and Evil* is a collection of films chosen by artists including Emily Roysdon, Drew Daniel and Daria Martin, which reconsider the historical contours and shifting relationships of sex and community in the digital age. This screening coincides with the current online exhibition at www.tank.tv in which the artists were invited to select one contemporary video under the same theme. *She doesn't think so but she's dressed for the h-bomb Curated by Negar Azimi for tank.tv Sunday 21 September 2008, 15.00* The current moment is one marked by an abundance of mega-narratives, sweeping arm gestures, climactic dips, and ascents. How we talk about the present is almost always wrapped up in some version of the past. In an afternoon screening 'She doesn't think so but she's dressed for the h-bomb' explores the weight of diverse histories in defining the current moment - whether manifest in the form of national myth, ritual, architecture or pop culture. Including works by Ziad Antar, Yael Bartana and The Atlas Group. *The Whole World Curated by Ian White for tank.tv Sunday 21 September 2008, 17.00* Online The Whole World is an ongoing open archive to which anyone can contribute - an uncensored list of lists inaugurated by considering it as a formal and political device. Originally selected and submitted works are reorganized and augmented into this single programme. Works by Uriel Orlow, Michael Robinson, Hollis Frampton are screened alongside many others to create an extraordinary list of lists, of the world as we know it – the whole world. For more information and to purchase tickets go to http://www.tate.org.uk/modern/eventseducation/film/tank.tv.htm www.tank.tv -- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - tank.tv 2nd Floor Princess House 50 - 60 Eastcastle Street London W1W 8EA press at tank.tv T: +44 (0)207323 3475 F: +44 (0)207631 4280 http://www.tank.tv - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Now showing: *The Young and Evil* Curated by Stuart Comer 14th July - 21st September 2008 Fresh Moves - Out now! Order your copy on www.tank.tv "A significant archive of creative practices in the early years of twenty-first century England" Tyler Coburn, Tomorrow Unlimited --- tank.tv is an inspirational showcase for innovative work in film and video. Dedicated to exhibiting and promoting emerging and established international artists, www.tank.tv acts as a major online gallery and archive for video art. A platform for contemporary moving images. From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Fri Jul 25 21:35:14 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:05:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] NUCLEAR DEAL: GOOD OR BAD Message-ID: <172438.29358.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> NUCLEAR DEAL: FOR THE NATION OR AGAINST THE NATION   From a couple of years we have been hearing a lot on Nuclear Deal. While villagers and poor people do not know anything about these stuffs, most of the literate group feels, the deal is a necessity to help India meet its Energy need. Unfortunately, no one seems to do some study on this before incorporating such thoughts within them. Let me share with you some of my study about this hype deal. Here are few points that must be analyzed before I quote the tits and bits of this Nuclear Energy.   1.       Doubt No 1: Though being a scientific topic, neither media nor politicians bothered to bring the scientists into picture. 2.       Doubt No 2: Congress Party hurried to push this deal within Bush regime. And they were in so much hurry that they broke all ethics to force it on the nation. While China took around 10 years to go into the deed (I do not know in detail what their deal actually is, but surely they are not bound to not use their nuclear resources for research and military purpose) 3.       Doubt No 3: The deal was not revealed to even the parliament members, forget about the nation. Neither did Congress bother to put into discussion. The small discussion that took place was a forced situation by opposition and Left front. 4.       Doubt No 4: Like a Traitor, Congress signed the Agreement and sent it to IAEA overnight while it promised to the nation that it would not do so forcing the nation into a situation which is yet not clear to its people. 5.       Doubt No 5: Immediately the sign off took place, part of the deal was made public, ensuring that even if public knew it, it is not going to harm the Agreement   If we carefully analyze the move of Congress, we find following sequence of event that very closely run around this deal.   1.       Removal of Dr. Kalam from Presidential position, despite of the fact that Congress is pro – Muslim and anti – Hindu. (Refer last paragraph for this conclusion) 2.       Forcing Sethu Samudram Project, in which Congress mislead the nation around Rama as a fiction character 3.       Forcing Nuclear Deal and misleading the nation that it is a necessity of the Nation   Now, it would be surprising to understand that all these three issues are very closely related to each other and a step by step move by Congress to support the design of USA and put the Nation into darkness. As I say this, here I put my points to support it.   On February 25, 2006 an article was published in Press Trust of India as quoted below:   ‘BARC physicists Usha Pal and Jagannathan have designed a Thorium Breeder Reactor (ATBR) generating 600 mw of electricity that will consume only 880-kg of plutonium every two years. The reactor produces 50 per cent of its energy from thorium.   At first, no one is talking about Thorium Reactors at all. However, even if the talk comes into picture, this is what is generally said:   Some DAE scientists say the indo-us deal would pave the way for India acquiring the plutonium it needs for its long-term energy security from thorium.   While the News published says (which is never brought into picture)?   According to some DAE scientists, this ATBR is poised to start thorium utilization by India today without having to wait for 30 years if the Indo-US deal went through. Our Indian scientists have presented paper on this in Istanbul as well. So my doubt number one remains a serious doubt, as this topic should actually be a scientific debate and not a dirty political debate, where even the opposition do not dare to speak the truth.   Having understood about the usage of Thorium to an extent, I further found some surprising data. On August 16, 2006, Prime News Wire publishes:   The United States government's Department of Agriculture has set aside grants of up to $10 million for exploring the feasibility of using Thorium for the generation of electricity and Bayport had identified, and reached a preliminary agreement, with a consultant who specializes in procuring grants of this type and will begin immediately to make applications for this grant on behalf of Northamerican.   I had the doubt – why Thorium Reactors in US, when they have abundant of Uranium – so abundant that they are selling it to India. Prime News Wire says:   Thorium has long been considered as a reactor fuel -- and for good reason: this naturally occurring element is far more abundant, more efficient, and safer to use than uranium, plus, Thorium reactors leave behind very little plutonium, meaning that governments have as much as 80% reduced availability to weapons-grade plutonium for the making of nuclear weapons.   Now the picture got a bit clear. It is Thorium which is preferred over Uranium by the Scientists for generation of Energy, as Thorium not only produces far less waste, but also utilizes the Plutonium waste of Uranium based Reactors. This is well supported by February 25, 2006 article of Press Trust of India, which says:   There is at least 3000 tons of plutonium waiting to be reprocessed from spent fuel discharged globally from uranium-based reactors.   According to NEI (Nuclear Energy Institute, US), number of Operating Reactors in US is around 104. The oldest was established in 1969 and the last Reactor came into use in 1996. Since, 1996 US has neither established any Uranium Reactor nor does it has any plan to do it. WHY?   According to John P. Shannon, (U. S. Marine Corps Major, Former Nuclear Physicist/Nuclear Engineer, Former Supervising Nuclear Physicist/Engineer and Former Manager of Nuclear Safety, Industrial Safety/Industrial Hygiene at Knolls Atomic Power Laboratory) around 200 reactors in US has been Shut down (you can find the list on Internet if you do a little search) for following reasons:   1.       Safety: Nuclear plants are each vulnerable to air strikes, truck bombs, boat bombs, and of course, the well-equipped and well-armed single madman or small group of terrorists. All anyone needs to do is toss a grenade into a Spent Fuel Pool and hundreds of thousands or even MILLIONS could die 2.       Cost: The vulnerabilities can be significantly reduced by closing/converting the nuke plants to Natural Gas and Wind Farms. The energy price per kilowatt is much lower than for nuclear or any other energy source. And there’s no “decommissioning” of wind turbines, either. While nuclear fuel is not only costly, but the cost of maintenance, security, and waste maintenance goes beyond control. While it appears that little Nuclear fuel produces more energy (as the amount of heat required to melt Uranium and produce steam is high in this case), but all the factors sum up to much more than comparative methodologies 3.       Waste: Uranium reactors produce huge amount of Plutonium waste and cost to maintain that waste goes even higher.   Adding to all these points, it is found that even today, energy produced through Nuclear Reactors in US has not passed the 20% mark of total Energy produced in the Nation.   We all know that Uranium is in highest amount with Australia. Yet the country is not adopting to Uranium Reactors – WHY?   With this data, it would be useful to understand Nuclear Reactors in brief:   The principles for using nuclear power to produce electricity are the same for most types of reactors. The energy released from continuous fission of the atoms of the fuel is harnessed as heat in either a gas or water, and is used to produce steam. The steam is used to drive the turbines which produce electricity (as in most fossil fuel plants).   Thus, there is no fuss that India would be a super power with Uranium.   Having given the background of why US is keen to sell of Uranium, one must also understand that the Economy growth of India in past 10 years have been amazingly great. Our foreign reserve started growing with the Initiative of BJP and we find today Congress taking the credit. However, with this nuclear deal, there is a chance that our Reserve of around 300 Billion dollars would be drained out. This is a subject that would require another article to detail, and I will come back to the relation between the steps of Congress to end up with this deal.   1.       Removal of Dr. Kalam: Though there are more reasons behind this move, but in relation to nuclear deal it is for sure that as a president, he was well into media. He even said that we are keen to build our own Thorium Reactors. He could be kept out of media only when he was not holding the highest position. Congress ensured this took place. 2.       Sethu Samudram Project: The whole nation is duped on the ground of Rama, being a fiction character. In fact, it was VHP who took this issue so hugely that Congress and its allies were abound to speak about Lord Rama, and when they spoke – they spoke anti – Hindu – we all know this. The reality is, at Rama Sethu, we have huge amount of Thorium deposit. No doubt with the news highlighted above, US have an eye on this. And as we all know from the Agreement that was made public, that India cannot do anything without the inspection and permission of US in the field of nuclear technology. Hence, undoubtedly Sethu Samudram project is all about digging the Thorium out in one go. But what will India do of it, as they are now bound not to use it without reporting to US. I doubt, and have an independent view that they will all be taken away by US. Our scientists would be helpless for sure. In addition by hurting the sentiments of Hindus, Congress no doubt was pleasing the Muslims. 3.       Nuclear Deal: In this light, it is not well understood where the Congress headed in four years. Inflation is not an issue for Congress. Bush makes Indians responsible for food price rise. It is up to the readers to think on why Congress did it in this manner – something which must be investigated.   Why Congress is Anti – Hindu:   This nation, today called as India, is a land of Hindus from hundreds of thousands of years. Here is a time now that anyone talking about Hinduism and in support of Hindus is termed as Communal. One can openly talk about the riots in Gujarat, but no one is allowed to talk on the pre-riot Godhra case which became the cause of Riot – clearly Hindus did not Riot with pleasure. One is allowed to talk on Babri, but no one is allowed to hundreds of temples demolished in Kashmir and in other Islamic countries. One is allowed to talk on Bilkis Bano case, but no one can say a word on kidnapping and mass religious rapes of Hindu girls by Muslims – it happened in mass in Kashmir and it is happening in many Muslim dominated areas in India. One such news was published by Express India on July 22nd 2008. One is allowed to talk on extra facilities to Muslims, but no one can say word about Hindus of Kashmirs who are living like Refugees in their own nation. No Hindu can talk on the Massacres that took place in Kashmir. This is an irony in the history of India that 80% Hindus of this nation have no room to talk about themselves in their own nation. I wonder where we Hindus will go when we have more Kashmirs and more ethnic cleansing of Hindus within our own nation taking place. Thus any party who is not allowing Hindus to talk on Hinduism is surely anti – Hindu. From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 22:10:41 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:40:41 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic Terrorism References: <621041.51247.qm@web94711.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <4889ADBF.20303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <012d01c8ee75$2f776fc0$73387946@taraprakash> That reminds me of an interview I heard with a former member of Cu Clux Clan. This group believes that the white people are superior. This reformed member asked his leader once. "What do we do when we have done away with all the niggers and other non-whites?" "Well, we'll look at the hair color then." So when you start looking for the reasons to hate, there will be several to find. My friend was hated in his community because he married a Brahmin from a caste lower than his. Not all Dalits will consider other Dalits as equals. Hasina can loathe families with no history of inter-racial inter-caste marriage. Good luck finding them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tapas Ray" Cc: "sarai list" Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 6:41 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic Terrorism > Hasina, > > I think you are more fortunate than most people on this list. There's > some variety in your life. Instead of sticking to the same object of > hate every single day of the week, you can pick a different one, or a > different combination, for each day. Like those people who wear a > different colour for each day, or a different watch. But you will never > get there if you use your head. So remember to fill your head with a few > slogans of your choice with your first cup of tea or coffee each > morning. That way your ability to think will not come in the way. > > Tapas > > > > hasina hasan wrote: >> with no offense to myself, and trying to not be offensive here..as one >> can hardly keep from taking things personally what with being a person to >> begin with, >> i had to say. >> >> i have a mixed lineage of muslims, buddhists, tibetans, chinese and >> indians to name a few. what/who do i hate and who and what do i stand up >> for today? for i dont fall into any of the below mentioned sets >> generally. and then again perhaps i'm all of them altogether. hard to >> fill in the blank, >> >> it's hard to point within. >> >> what are your own views? what set of person are you? that would have been >> an interesting though not mandatory appendage to your thoughts aloud. >> >> or maybe just maybe, like me, you are too: an Über person. >> >> --- On Thu, 24/7/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > >> Just thinking aloud. >> >> One often comes across people (on SARAI and elsewhere) that can see: >> >> - Imperialism as the defining aspect of the Americans/USA (usually to the >> exclusion of all else) >> >> - Brahmanism as the defining aspect of Hindus/Hinduism (usually to the >> exclusion of all else) >> >> - Terrorism as the defining aspect of Muslims/Islam (usually to the >> exclusion >> of all else) >> >> These are just 3 examples. >> >> In a >> curious sort of way such sets of people (whichever their favourite >> 'hate' might be) are alike in the manner in which they view things. >> Their 'obsessiveness' clouds their intellect and ability to look at >> things in context. >> >> Just a thought. >> >> Kshmendra >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in Sat Jul 26 09:45:31 2008 From: ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in (Ranjith Thankappan) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 09:45:31 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] IIM RESERVATION: Kozhikode Shows The Way Message-ID: <78303.13109.qm@web8702.mail.in.yahoo.com> Ambedkar demanded separate electorates. It s foolish to argue that he was against reservation. He was against Hindu Brahmnical domination and brutality dear... ----- Original Message ---- From: Prabhakar Singh To: Ranjith Thankappan Sent: Saturday, 26 July, 2008 12:30:03 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] IIM RESERVATION: Kozhikode Shows The Way The process of enabling by providing necessary facilities and environment is required irrespective of caste,religion,region etc. instead of  reservation.Even B.R.Ambedkar was against such reservation. Prabhakar  ----- Original Message ---- From: Ranjith Thankappan To: sarai Sent: Thursday, 24 July, 2008 8:02:25 PM Subject: [Reader-list] IIM RESERVATION: Kozhikode Shows The Way There are many ways. This could be one of them. Dont hesitate to rescue yourself from the narrow brahmanical caste meritocraZy. Say YES to reservation; democratise yourself,;democratise brahmincal indian society let the real talent come to these educational agraharas and make it a better place of higher learning. jai bheem!! http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20060424&fname=Cover+Story+%28F%29&sid=3 Kozhikode Shows The Way A state initiative is imparting Dalit-Adivasis professional skill S. ANAND Much before the nation began debating reservation in IITs and IIMs, a slow revolution had begun unfolding at the Centre for Excellence (CEx) in Kozhikode. Established in June 2002 with the support of the SC/ST development department of the Kerala government, CEx has been under the "incubation" of IIM, Kozhikode. It offers a five-month Certificate Course for Professional Development (CCPD), currently open only to Dalit and Adivasi graduates from Kerala. According to Damodaran Nampoothiri, programme director: "The course is focused towards imparting communication, IT and managerial skills, personality development and entrepreneurship. The students then either opt for higher studies or get jobs in the public and private sectors." The Kerala government subsidises the project entirely and pays each student a Rs 2,000 monthly stipend. In six batches till 2005, a total of 208 Dalit and Adivasi students have passed out of CEx. Of these, 37 have opted for higher studies, 34 have found employment, accounting for a 35 per cent success rate. Some students, such as K.R. Dilraj, have successfully taken the CAT and procured an MBA from IIM, Kozhikode. "Before joining CEx, Dilraj was a court clerk. Today, he earns Rs 8 lakh per annum as bank assurance manager with ICICI Lombard Insurance in Hyderabad," says Nampoothiri. ICICI Lombard recruited Dilraj not because he was an Adivasi. He was just good for the job. CEx believes merit is nothing but the availability of opportunity. An opportunity M.M. Risha of Kozhikode also availed of. She came to CEx in July 2003 with a BTech in Electronics and Communications besides 18 months of experience as lecturer. After the CEx diploma, she completed her MTech and is now systems analyst with Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu in Hyderabad. Her salary of Rs 2.7 lakh per annum may pale in comparison to what IIM toppers get, but factor this: she's the first graduate in her family. "My mother teaches preschool, and father works as a coolie," she says. She acknowledges the significance of CEx in her development: "What we acquired there was not just technical knowledge. We were equipped with analytical skills, ability to interact in discussions and given a booster dose of self-confidence. Crucially, I felt comfortable being with other Dalit-Adivasi students." Says A.R. Vasavi, professor of sociology at the National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, and advisor to CEx: "The quota policy won't work without a focused and targeted programme. The CEx package is tailored to specific needs of students. What's the point if IIMs take Dalit-Adivasi students and neglect them? CEx accomplishes in five months what other institutes can't in three years." Vasavi appreciates that the CCPD gives young Dalits and Adivasis a sense of citizenship and tackles issues like stigma via counselling. O.C. Geetha, a 2004 batch alumnus, now with Infosys Technologies in Thiruvananthapuram, says CEx instilled confidence in her. "Specifically, William H. Mackaden, a faculty member. For the first time, on his insistence, I participated in an English-language drama. Schooled in Walapad village, Thrissur, I wasn't confident because of my rural background. I knew the language, but was afraid of expressing myself." Post-CEx, Geetha, an electronics grad, did well in the Cochin University MBA entrance and also landed the Infosys job. "I preferred the job as my father had just retired." Geetha also adds that their Sunday interactions with IIM-K students were crucial. "Being on the IIM campus, though apart from it, gave us access to MBA students who were very supportive." With the three-year incubation period at IIM-K coming to an end, CEx has sought the support of the SC/ST development department to turn into an autonomous institution called the Centre for Research and Education for Social Transformation (crest). Says Amarnath H.Kalro, IIM-K's director when CEx was conceptualised: "CEx was started in response to a specific request from the Kerala government to help SC/ST students. Its model can and should be duplicated by all IIMs. After the incubation, they can become independent." Given that IIMs and IITs have been unable to fulfil the 22.5 per cent Dalit-Adivasi quota, Kalro thinks there's need for such centres in every state. "Most states have coaching centres for civil services aspirants among SCs and STs. I wonder why similar efforts are lacking when it comes to IITs and IIMs." -- " The so called caste-hindus are bitterly opposed to the depressed class using a public tank not because they really believe that the water will be thereby spoiled or will evaporate but because they are afraid of losing their superiority of caste and of equality being established between the former and the latter. We are resorting to this satyagraha not becasue we believe that the water of this particular tank has any exceptional qualities, but to establish our natural rights as citizens and human beings." - Dr B.R. Ambedkar, Mahad Satyagraha Conference, December 25th , 1927 --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Our Media" group. To post to this group, send email to our-media at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to our-media-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/our-media?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- -- Ranjit       From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>       Bring your gang together. Do your thing. Find your favourite Yahoo! group at http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in Sat Jul 26 09:55:35 2008 From: ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in (Ranjith Thankappan) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 09:55:35 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] satvik gurus and their KARMA !! Message-ID: <533277.87585.qm@web8708.mail.in.yahoo.com> After all, at the end of the day, the Roman catholics who claims to be "brahmins" and the satvik gurus who claims to represent the 'universe" breath same ideology. So what difference does it make for us whether it s BEnny Hinn or Sree Sree Ravishankar or MOdi or Osama or Togadia.. Morality is not the sacred word left only for the shivsainiks to show it on valantines day or karsevaks on their genocide day. yea memry should be refreshed. It cant be washed away in the brahmincal co-option and distortion.   ----- Original Message ---- From: "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" To: Ranjith Thankappan Cc: sarai Sent: Friday, 25 July, 2008 8:10:40 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] satvik gurus and their KARMA !! Well, well, well, it is amusing that you take such high moral grounds about gurus and their sathvik actions or inactions or bad actions of selective faith, let it be remembered that Sister Abhaya was raped and murdered at the young age by another sathvik priest in Kerala in a seminary.       Let us also refresh our memory about a" Guha" actively sponsored by a political party just to secure the votes of a sadhu who believes in murder and rape of his followers, has active body guards with over 500 gun licenses sanctioned during the rule of a CM who is very secular.!   And ofcourse there are many instances of Benny hinn and alike, in Kerala, where a priest is now being hauled up for his family trusts for thousands of crores, and a missionary in Andhra who has hundreds of acres of land for sermons.!, thanks to Yesudas rajashekar reddy, very secular indeed.!   Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ranjith Thankappan Date: Friday, July 25, 2008 12:30 pm Subject: [Reader-list] satvik gurus and their KARMA !! To: sarai > Godmen and Mortal World > Happenings at Asaram Bapu's Ashram  > Ram Puniyani >  Death of two students of Gurukul (traditional schools run by > Hindu Gurus) of Asaram Bapu's Ashram (July 2008) has raised > multiple questions. The children staying in the Ashram were > missing for some time before being found dead near the river. The > post mortem showed that some of their organs are missing. The > parents of the children accused the Ashram residents for > practicing black magic and removing children's organs. Asaram in > reply said that the residents of his ashram hear Bhagvat and other > holy books, how they can be involved in such an act and that they > won't even kill a dog. Later two related events took place. One, > when Asaram had to travel by air and as a part of security drill > he was frisked second time, a random check applied some times, his > followers created ruckus. The listeners of Bhagvat etc. rampaged > and expressed their anger for the Holy man being subjected to the > mundane rules. Also the same ashramites attacked the journalists, > severely beating up a woman journalist, who had to be > hospitalized. So much for the Bhagvat induced tolerant attitude! >  This holy man has lot of other incidents to his account. In > Jhabua area his female Sadhvis beat up the nuns in the Christian > mission school when a 13year old girl was raped and killed by an > outsider, who had nothing to do with the school. The same Holy > seer sat on protest dharana when Shankaracharya was arrested on > the charges, which were far from divine. An act of solidarity > indeed! An FIR has also been filed against him for grabbing one > and a half acre of land in Patna. He has a vast network of > devotees and followers, even his disciples are giving pravachans > (holy discourse), keeping his photo in the backdrop. He is in the > race for the most popular Goodman, along with Sri Sri Ravishaker, > Baba Ramdeo amongst others. > His is not an isolated case. While these three top Godmen are very > visible, they are not the only ones. This phenomenon is sprawling > and one can see them mushrooming every where with ever increasing > following. Recently in Kerala one Godman created scene when > arrested by police. Shakarachraya's Ashram also showed lot of muck > in its cupboard. Surely this is the most proliferating phenomenon > in recent times marching parallel with increase in the religiosity > and might of RSS at social and political level. >  There are types and types of godmen but still one can say that > majority of them are politically close to the RSS/VHP/BJP combine. > Asaram Bapu sat on dharana along with Vajpayee et al and recently. > Sri Sri Ravishanker and Baba Ramdeo were all praises for Advani > while releasing his autobiography, which justifies the politics of > Hate and his own role in that. They subtly spread the message that > minorities are violent as they consume meat etc. forgetting that > the most violent person of all the time Hitler was a vegetarian. > And the followers of these Godmen are mercurial in their temper > and aggressive in their stance. Another such 'Holy man, Narendra > Mahraj's followers also created trouble when he was not permitted > to carry his holy staff in the aeroplane. They were also involved > in the attack on nuns in Alibaug, these nuns were doing the AIDS > awareness work and that was presented as 'conversion' a pretext > enough to beat them up. > When these Godmen are giving such peaceful sermons and eating > satvik food, (food creating peaceful tendencies as per them), how > are they so violent? According to traditional system of medicine > type of food determines the nature of man. So Muslims the meat > eaters are violent the vegetarian Hindu are tolerant, that's how > the social common sense says here. This has been the part of > demonization of Muslims. Violence is due to the ideas and > underlying premises of the teachings they imbibe. They listen to > the exclusionary discourse, Hindus are under threat is part of the > preaching of many of these and some of them are deliberately > planted in Adivasi areas to scare the Christian missionaries away. > Lakkhanand in Orissa and Aseemanand in Dangs, Gujarat are two > examples of that. They have been attacking the missionary work in > the area of education and health. Incidentally in these areas > around Christmas time, attacks are organized against churches and > priests. >  Along with the adverse effects of globalization the rise of these > Holy men can clearly be seen. One was surprised to note that some > of these Babas, (holy men) claiming to renounce the worldly goods > are extremely prosperous themselves and have such a rich clientele > that they can undertake an expensive month long luxury cruise > along with these holy people and listen to the divine discourse in > the midst of sea waves. Also there is a very impressive self > designed dress code for the men of God. While one need understand > this phenomenon at deeper level what can be said off hand is that > their ashrams and activities should be within the parameters of > law, subject to the usual checks and balances of a civic society. > In case of Brinda Karat raising questions about the composition of > medicines being produced by his factory, Baba' followers were > aghast as to how can ordinary mortal raise such question about the > Baba. To assert that the laws of the land should not > be applied to them cannot be acceptable in society and polity. To > reduce the fraud which is seeping in many of these Ashrams, it > will be worth its while to inculcate voluntary social audit, based > on ethical values and laws of Indian society. All those involved > in the death of these children and beating up of journalists must > be subjected to the punishment due to them. > One has seen many a types of saints. During medieval period the > Bhakti and Sufi saints stood for reform of society, emphasized on > moral values of religion and included all in the fold of their > community. They talked against blind faith and emphasized on the > unity of all human beings. That's why we see that people cutting > across religions flocked them. Today it seems that a large genre > of those wearing holy robes are revivalists, pushing back the > social values and exclusionary in their approach to the society. > Their main focus is on giving calm and tranquility to the > affluent, to be close to those with money and power. They are mute > against the evil practices of untouchability, bride burning and > manifest caste system. >  Their association with politics of RSS combine clearly gives an > indication as to how they prepare the ground for their societal > agenda. We do need to emphasize on reform of the society, to look > at dogmas and blind faith critically and to ensure that society > develops in a humane direction. Some of them dish out the RSS > ideology in a more sophisticated way, with the halo of divine > sermon. While one appreciates their social welfare work, one will > like that transparency is brought into their operations and > medicines they produce should be regulated by the laws of the > land. Can one expect that the tragic incidents of Asaram's Ashram > will open our eyes to be more vigilant about their deeds? >   > -- > Issues in Secular Politics > July 2008 II > For circulation. > --ram.puniyani at gmail.com,    www.pluralindia.com >   > > > > -- > geedha > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "grey youth movement" group. >  To post to this group, send email to grey-youth- > movement at googlegroups.com >  To unsubscribe from this group, send email to grey-youth-movement- > unsubscribe at googlegroups.com >  For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/grey-youth-movement?hl=en-GB > -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- > > >      From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Go > to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Go to http://in.webmessenger.yahoo.com/ From ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in Sat Jul 26 09:59:09 2008 From: ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in (Ranjith Thankappan) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 09:59:09 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] satvik gurus and their KARMA !! Message-ID: <723693.79610.qm@web8705.mail.in.yahoo.com> Secular = Communal Even Advani, Modi, Somnath Chatterjee and Manmohan Singh can be secular !! no wonder we are proudly secular/communal long live ..... !!  ----- Original Message ---- From: "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" To: Ranjith Thankappan Cc: sarai Sent: Friday, 25 July, 2008 8:10:40 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] satvik gurus and their KARMA !! Well, well, well, it is amusing that you take such high moral grounds about gurus and their sathvik actions or inactions or bad actions of selective faith, let it be remembered that Sister Abhaya was raped and murdered at the young age by another sathvik priest in Kerala in a seminary.       Let us also refresh our memory about a" Guha" actively sponsored by a political party just to secure the votes of a sadhu who believes in murder and rape of his followers, has active body guards with over 500 gun licenses sanctioned during the rule of a CM who is very secular.!   And ofcourse there are many instances of Benny hinn and alike, in Kerala, where a priest is now being hauled up for his family trusts for thousands of crores, and a missionary in Andhra who has hundreds of acres of land for sermons.!, thanks to Yesudas rajashekar reddy, very secular indeed.!   Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ranjith Thankappan Date: Friday, July 25, 2008 12:30 pm Subject: [Reader-list] satvik gurus and their KARMA !! To: sarai > Godmen and Mortal World > Happenings at Asaram Bapu's Ashram  > Ram Puniyani >  Death of two students of Gurukul (traditional schools run by > Hindu Gurus) of Asaram Bapu's Ashram (July 2008) has raised > multiple questions. The children staying in the Ashram were > missing for some time before being found dead near the river. The > post mortem showed that some of their organs are missing. The > parents of the children accused the Ashram residents for > practicing black magic and removing children's organs. Asaram in > reply said that the residents of his ashram hear Bhagvat and other > holy books, how they can be involved in such an act and that they > won't even kill a dog. Later two related events took place. One, > when Asaram had to travel by air and as a part of security drill > he was frisked second time, a random check applied some times, his > followers created ruckus. The listeners of Bhagvat etc. rampaged > and expressed their anger for the Holy man being subjected to the > mundane rules. Also the same ashramites attacked the journalists, > severely beating up a woman journalist, who had to be > hospitalized. So much for the Bhagvat induced tolerant attitude! >  This holy man has lot of other incidents to his account. In > Jhabua area his female Sadhvis beat up the nuns in the Christian > mission school when a 13year old girl was raped and killed by an > outsider, who had nothing to do with the school. The same Holy > seer sat on protest dharana when Shankaracharya was arrested on > the charges, which were far from divine. An act of solidarity > indeed! An FIR has also been filed against him for grabbing one > and a half acre of land in Patna. He has a vast network of > devotees and followers, even his disciples are giving pravachans > (holy discourse), keeping his photo in the backdrop. He is in the > race for the most popular Goodman, along with Sri Sri Ravishaker, > Baba Ramdeo amongst others. > His is not an isolated case. While these three top Godmen are very > visible, they are not the only ones. This phenomenon is sprawling > and one can see them mushrooming every where with ever increasing > following. Recently in Kerala one Godman created scene when > arrested by police. Shakarachraya's Ashram also showed lot of muck > in its cupboard. Surely this is the most proliferating phenomenon > in recent times marching parallel with increase in the religiosity > and might of RSS at social and political level. >  There are types and types of godmen but still one can say that > majority of them are politically close to the RSS/VHP/BJP combine. > Asaram Bapu sat on dharana along with Vajpayee et al and recently. > Sri Sri Ravishanker and Baba Ramdeo were all praises for Advani > while releasing his autobiography, which justifies the politics of > Hate and his own role in that. They subtly spread the message that > minorities are violent as they consume meat etc. forgetting that > the most violent person of all the time Hitler was a vegetarian. > And the followers of these Godmen are mercurial in their temper > and aggressive in their stance. Another such 'Holy man, Narendra > Mahraj's followers also created trouble when he was not permitted > to carry his holy staff in the aeroplane. They were also involved > in the attack on nuns in Alibaug, these nuns were doing the AIDS > awareness work and that was presented as 'conversion' a pretext > enough to beat them up. > When these Godmen are giving such peaceful sermons and eating > satvik food, (food creating peaceful tendencies as per them), how > are they so violent? According to traditional system of medicine > type of food determines the nature of man. So Muslims the meat > eaters are violent the vegetarian Hindu are tolerant, that's how > the social common sense says here. This has been the part of > demonization of Muslims. Violence is due to the ideas and > underlying premises of the teachings they imbibe. They listen to > the exclusionary discourse, Hindus are under threat is part of the > preaching of many of these and some of them are deliberately > planted in Adivasi areas to scare the Christian missionaries away. > Lakkhanand in Orissa and Aseemanand in Dangs, Gujarat are two > examples of that. They have been attacking the missionary work in > the area of education and health. Incidentally in these areas > around Christmas time, attacks are organized against churches and > priests. >  Along with the adverse effects of globalization the rise of these > Holy men can clearly be seen. One was surprised to note that some > of these Babas, (holy men) claiming to renounce the worldly goods > are extremely prosperous themselves and have such a rich clientele > that they can undertake an expensive month long luxury cruise > along with these holy people and listen to the divine discourse in > the midst of sea waves. Also there is a very impressive self > designed dress code for the men of God. While one need understand > this phenomenon at deeper level what can be said off hand is that > their ashrams and activities should be within the parameters of > law, subject to the usual checks and balances of a civic society. > In case of Brinda Karat raising questions about the composition of > medicines being produced by his factory, Baba' followers were > aghast as to how can ordinary mortal raise such question about the > Baba. To assert that the laws of the land should not > be applied to them cannot be acceptable in society and polity. To > reduce the fraud which is seeping in many of these Ashrams, it > will be worth its while to inculcate voluntary social audit, based > on ethical values and laws of Indian society. All those involved > in the death of these children and beating up of journalists must > be subjected to the punishment due to them. > One has seen many a types of saints. During medieval period the > Bhakti and Sufi saints stood for reform of society, emphasized on > moral values of religion and included all in the fold of their > community. They talked against blind faith and emphasized on the > unity of all human beings. That's why we see that people cutting > across religions flocked them. Today it seems that a large genre > of those wearing holy robes are revivalists, pushing back the > social values and exclusionary in their approach to the society. > Their main focus is on giving calm and tranquility to the > affluent, to be close to those with money and power. They are mute > against the evil practices of untouchability, bride burning and > manifest caste system. >  Their association with politics of RSS combine clearly gives an > indication as to how they prepare the ground for their societal > agenda. We do need to emphasize on reform of the society, to look > at dogmas and blind faith critically and to ensure that society > develops in a humane direction. Some of them dish out the RSS > ideology in a more sophisticated way, with the halo of divine > sermon. While one appreciates their social welfare work, one will > like that transparency is brought into their operations and > medicines they produce should be regulated by the laws of the > land. Can one expect that the tragic incidents of Asaram's Ashram > will open our eyes to be more vigilant about their deeds? >   > -- > Issues in Secular Politics > July 2008 II > For circulation. > --ram.puniyani at gmail.com,    www.pluralindia.com >   > > > > -- > geedha > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "grey youth movement" group. >  To post to this group, send email to grey-youth- > movement at googlegroups.com >  To unsubscribe from this group, send email to grey-youth-movement- > unsubscribe at googlegroups.com >  For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/grey-youth-movement?hl=en-GB > -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- > > >      From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Go > to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/ From wonton_warriorprincess at yahoo.com Sat Jul 26 11:44:50 2008 From: wonton_warriorprincess at yahoo.com (hasina hasan) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 11:44:50 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic Terrorism Message-ID: <570342.96302.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> hmm ...yesterday i went out and about as per my day plan. today i'm going to look at the numbers from revenue so affected by sparse turnout at work. i win some. i lose some. Radhikarajen: it's Hasina with an i. thank you. Tapas: i'm extremely fortunate, that's very true. thank you for the wise words. though i couldnt have my morning cuppa and today's slogan came to me thus. "i dont hate curdled milk. it makes for some good dessert." Tara: interestingly all through school i thought kids who's folks stuck "together forever" were a minority. there's a flipside to everything, you know. always some ying for the yang. misappropriated justice/feelings is just not my style anymore. waste of time..almost like yesterday's bombings. though yeah i do indulge in a little rhetoric now and then. Kshmendra: whereforth art thou? i figured it out: until i'm undone, insha allah my maoist fringe wont obstruct an otherwise benign view. cheers all, Hasina   --- On Fri, 25/7/08, TaraPrakash wrote: From: TaraPrakash Subject: Re: [Reader-list] American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic Terrorism To: "Tapas Ray" Cc: "sarai list" Date: Friday, 25 July, 2008, 9:40 AM That reminds me of an interview I heard with a former member of Cu Clux Clan. This group believes that the white people are superior. This reformed member asked his leader once. "What do we do when we have done away with all the niggers and other non-whites?" "Well, we'll look at the hair color then." So when you start looking for the reasons to hate, there will be several to find. My friend was hated in his community because he married a Brahmin from a caste lower than his. Not all Dalits will consider other Dalits as equals.. Hasina can loathe families with no history of inter-racial inter-caste marriage. Good luck finding them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tapas Ray" Cc: "sarai list" Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 6:41 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic Terrorism > Hasina, > > I think you are more fortunate than most people on this list. There's > some variety in your life. Instead of sticking to the same object of > hate every single day of the week, you can pick a different one, or a > different combination, for each day. Like those people who wear a > different colour for each day, or a different watch. But you will never > get there if you use your head. So remember to fill your head with a few > slogans of your choice with your first cup of tea or coffee each > morning. That way your ability to think will not come in the way. > > Tapas > > > > hasina hasan wrote: >> with no offense to myself, and trying to not be offensive here..as one >> can hardly keep from taking things personally what with being a person to >> begin with, >> i had to say. >> >> i have a mixed lineage of muslims, buddhists, tibetans, chinese and >> indians to name a few. what/who do i hate and who and what do i stand up >> for today? for i dont fall into any of the below mentioned sets >> generally. and then again perhaps i'm all of them altogether. hard to >> fill in the blank, >> >> it's hard to point within. >> >> what are your own views? what set of person are you? that would have been >> an interesting though not mandatory appendage to your thoughts aloud. >> >> or maybe just maybe, like me, you are too: an Über person. >> >> --- On Thu, 24/7/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > >> Just thinking aloud. >> >> One often comes across people (on SARAI and elsewhere) that can see: >> >> - Imperialism as the defining aspect of the Americans/USA (usually to the >> exclusion of all else) >> >> - Brahmanism as the defining aspect of Hindus/Hinduism (usually to the >> exclusion of all else) >> >> - Terrorism as the defining aspect of Muslims/Islam (usually to the >> exclusion >> of all else) >> >> These are just 3 examples. >> >> In a >> curious sort of way such sets of people (whichever their favourite >> 'hate' might be) are alike in the manner in which they view things. >> Their 'obsessiveness' clouds their intellect and ability to look at >> things in context. >> >> Just a thought. >> >> Kshmendra >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Messenger blocked? Want to chat? Go to http://in.webmessenger.yahoo.com/ From press at tank.tv Fri Jul 25 18:37:10 2008 From: press at tank.tv (tank.tv press) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:07:10 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] www.tank.tv : tank.tv at Tate Modern 19.09.08 - 21.09.08 Message-ID: <78c84f090807250607g17116ed4l2ee8c2c94b1d1b4@mail.gmail.com> *www.tank.tv tank.tv at Tate Modern Friday 19 September – Sunday 21 September 2008* tank.tv has the pleasure of holding a weekend of screenings from its 2008 Guest Curators Programme. www.tank.tv invited some of the world's foremost curators of artist's film and video to create exhibitions exclusively for its online platform. Four of these shows have been re-thought and re-constructed specifically for screening at Tate Modern. Book now! *Ken Jacobs Return to the Scene of the Crime Friday 19 September 2008, 19.00* The weekend begins with experimental filmmaker Ken Jacobs' *Return to the Scene of the Crime* : "The heartwarming story of a boy who didn't know it's wrong to steal. Running off with the pig seemed like a good idea at the time." In a contemporary riff on one of his landmark works Ken Jacobs uses new technology to both interrogate and arouse a theatrical tableau, shot in 1905, based on Hogarth's Southwark Fair. *The Young and Evil Curated by Stuart Comer Saturday 20 September 2008, 19.00* The digital glow of the internet has largely replaced the dark space of the cinema as the site where furtive desires are first expressed and encountered on flickering screens. *The Young and Evil* is a collection of films chosen by artists including Emily Roysdon, Drew Daniel and Daria Martin, which reconsider the historical contours and shifting relationships of sex and community in the digital age. This screening coincides with the current online exhibition at www.tank.tv in which the artists were invited to select one contemporary video under the same theme. *She doesn't think so but she's dressed for the h-bomb Curated by Negar Azimi for tank.tv Sunday 21 September 2008, 15.00* The current moment is one marked by an abundance of mega-narratives, sweeping arm gestures, climactic dips, and ascents. How we talk about the present is almost always wrapped up in some version of the past. In an afternoon screening 'She doesn't think so but she's dressed for the h-bomb' explores the weight of diverse histories in defining the current moment - whether manifest in the form of national myth, ritual, architecture or pop culture. Including works by Ziad Antar, Yael Bartana and The Atlas Group. *The Whole World Curated by Ian White for tank.tv Sunday 21 September 2008, 17.00* Online The Whole World is an ongoing open archive to which anyone can contribute - an uncensored list of lists inaugurated by considering it as a formal and political device. Originally selected and submitted works are reorganized and augmented into this single programme. Works by Uriel Orlow, Michael Robinson, Hollis Frampton are screened alongside many others to create an extraordinary list of lists, of the world as we know it – the whole world. For more information and to purchase tickets go to http://www.tate.org.uk/modern/eventseducation/film/tank.tv.htm www.tank.tv -- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - tank.tv 2nd Floor Princess House 50 - 60 Eastcastle Street London W1W 8EA press at tank.tv T: +44 (0)207323 3475 F: +44 (0)207631 4280 http://www.tank.tv - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Now showing: 'Vertrautes Terrain' www.tank.tv in collaboration with the ZKM 21st May - 30th June 2008 Fresh Moves - Out now! Order your copy on www.tank.tv "A significant archive of creative practices in the early years of twenty-first century England" Tyler Coburn, Tomorrow Unlimited --- tank.tv is an inspirational showcase for innovative work in film and video. Dedicated to exhibiting and promoting emerging and established international artists, www.tank.tv acts as a major online gallery and archive for video art. A platform for contemporary moving images. From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Jul 26 15:03:48 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 14:33:48 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=60Analysis_of_the_Karnataka_Elect?= =?windows-1252?q?ion_Results=92-_James_Manor=2C_CSDS=2C_1st_August=2C_2?= =?windows-1252?q?=3A30_PM?= In-Reply-To: <32144e990807250740m280d1249oc80ab78a94c2881e@mail.gmail.com> References: <32144e990807250740m280d1249oc80ab78a94c2881e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Truth is always bitter to many who like to see the sweetness of divisive politics and bad governance, as otherwise how citizens can be happy with the elected MPs like Sangliana and others who sold their votes ? Take the low intensity strikes of blasts in a city like bangalore, Jaipur or Bombay, where innocents have to die, face the miseries with injuries , all these make our politicians run into blame game, but in practise it is hypocracy at work, as we do not have the courage to corner the anti-social elements who like the nation in constant state of bad governance with discrimination to citizens, pampering of votebanks for the faith, caste and religion.? A policeman is obstructed when he accosts persons who keep pig in the place of worship and all the arrested are rowdy sheeters of the same faith doing haram jobs for a politician, and the investigation is stuck low key, as it would offend the feeling of a faith.! Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Partha Dasgupta Date: Friday, July 25, 2008 8:10 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] `Analysis of the Karnataka Election Results’- James Manor, CSDS, 1st August, 2:30 PM To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear Radhikarajen, > > You seem to have this strange hatred of the INC that seems to hit > you like a > wave and blind you from any logic where the party is concerned. > Logic (and > sadly, language & grammer as well) flies out of the window and all > thatcomes out is a flow of acid. > > Would suggest you look at what you are writing where, and the > relevance of > it. > > There were some earlier postings of yours that I used to atleast enjoy > reading, but the recent ones are pretty incoherent. > > Rgds, Partha > ................................. > > On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 8:03 PM, wrote: > > > Now that it is post martem of the results of Karnataka > elections, it is > > sincerely hoped that it is not co;oured like the pre poll survey > of CNNIBN > > and Yogendra Yadav, who preferred to manipulate the statstics to > please the > > delhi boss, oh, sorry delhi mafiosi, madam,? > > > > Regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Rajesh Ramakrishnan > > Date: Friday, July 25, 2008 5:27 pm > > Subject: [Reader-list] `Analysis of the Karnataka Election > Results'- James > > Manor, CSDS, 1st August, 2:30 PM > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > Friday, 1st August, 2008 > > > > > > You are invited to a talk on: > > > > > > > > > `Analysis of the Karnataka Election Results' > > > > > > By James Manor > > > > > > at 2:30 PM in the Seminar Hall, CSDS, 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi – > 110 054 > > > > > > > > > Professor James Manor is Emeka Anyaoku Chair in Commonwealth > Studies> > at the Institute of Commonwealth Studies, School of > Advanced Study, > > > University of London. Earlier, he was a Professorial Fellow at the > > > Institute of Development Studies at Sussex, and VKRV Rao Endowment > > > Professor at the Institute for Social and Economic Change in > > > Bangalore. He has held positions at the Universities of Leicester, > > > London, Harvard, Sussex and Yale. He was the Director of the > Institute> > of Commonwealth Studies for four years during the 1990s. > > > > > > Professor Manor specialises in the study of politics and state- > society> > relations, mainly in South and East Asia. He has > published several > > > books including Aid that Works: Successful Development > Programs in > > > Fragile States (World Bank, 2006), Democracy & > Decentralisation in > > > South Asia & West Africa: Participation, Accountability and > > > Performance (with Richard Crook) (Cambridge University Press, > 1998),> > Nehru to the Nineties: the Changing Office of Prime > Minister in India > > > (Penguin/Hurst, 1994), Power, Poverty and Poison: Disaster and > > > Response in an Indian City (Sage: 1993) and Rethinking Third World > > > Politics (Longman, 1991). A forthcoming book is (with Marcus > Melo and > > > Njuguna N'gethe) Against the Odds: Politicians, Institutions > and the > > > Struggle against Poverty. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 26 15:50:00 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 03:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic Terrorism In-Reply-To: <621041.51247.qm@web94711.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <642616.45592.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Hasina Hasan   I would have thought that the manner in which I presented my thoughts, would by itself also have also reflected my own attitudes. Obviously I failed there. Lack of clarity of expression in my English has always been a failing of mine.   The thrust of my thoughts was that if after identifying or recognising (for oneself) a "negative" in a philosophy/ideology/country/person, only that "negative" is taken as the defining attribute of the philosophy/ideology/country/person, to the exclusion of all other attributes of that philosophy/ideology/country/person, then such obsessiveness clouds both intellect and the ability to look at things objectively. I would not want that to happen with me. It would 'limit' me as a person.   Now, to take the 3 examples I had used:   - I find 'American Imperialism' unacceptable and reprehensible but there are other aspects/attributes of the USA and Americans that I register/recognise as worthy examples.   - I find 'Hindu Brahmanism' unacceptable and reprehensible but there are other aspects/attributes of the Hindus and Hinduism that I register/recognise as worthy examples.   - I find 'Islamic Terrorism' unacceptable and reprehensible but there are other aspects/attributes of the Muslims and Islam that I register/recognise as worthy examples.   At the same time, I find it important (for myself) to realise that the practitioners/promoters of the "negatives" (of the 3 or other examples) firmy believe that theirs is the "right path", that theirs is the "justified and just way", that theirs is the "sanctioned" attitude. They have been so educated/tutored/conditioned/programmed. There is also the element of continuing to promote/practice simply because you have 'got away with doing so' in the past.   I also see (for myself) that it is crucial to understand what it is that provokes/triggers the "embedded beliefs" and that leads to the most inhuman and (worse than that) sub-human of acts. Without such understanding, it would be difficult for me to argue against the "negatives".   Kshmendra      --- On Fri, 7/25/08, hasina hasan wrote: From: hasina hasan Subject: Re: [Reader-list] American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic Terrorism To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "sarai list" Date: Friday, July 25, 2008, 2:06 PM with no offense to myself, and trying to not be offensive here..as one can hardly keep from taking things personally what with being a person to begin with, i had to say. i have a mixed lineage of muslims, buddhists, tibetans, chinese and indians to name a few.  what/who do i hate and who and what do i stand up for today? for i dont fall into any of the below mentioned sets generally. and then again perhaps i'm all of them altogether. hard to fill in the blank, it's hard to point within. what are your own views? what set of person are you? that would have been an interesting though not mandatory appendage to your thoughts aloud. or maybe just maybe, like me, you are too: an Über person. --- On Thu, 24/7/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: From: Kshmendra Kaul Subject: [Reader-list] American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic Terrorism To: "sarai list" Date: Thursday, 24 July, 2008, 6:34 AM Just thinking aloud.   One often comes across people (on SARAI and elsewhere) that can see:   - Imperialism as the defining aspect of the Americans/USA (usually to the exclusion of all else)   - Brahmanism as the defining aspect of Hindus/Hinduism (usually to the exclusion of all else)   - Terrorism as the defining aspect of Muslims/Islam (usually to the exclusion of all else)   These are just 3 examples.   In a curious sort of way such sets of people (whichever their favourite 'hate' might be) are alike in the manner in which they view things. Their 'obsessiveness' clouds their intellect and ability to look at things in context.    Just a thought.   Kshmendra _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Explore your hobbies and interests. Click here to begin. From khurramparvez at yahoo.com Sat Jul 26 15:55:12 2008 From: khurramparvez at yahoo.com (Khurram Parvez) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 03:25:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] JKCCS condemns and seeks probe into recent grenade blasts Message-ID: <613282.90705.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Srinagar, Friday, 25 July 2008   From: Jammu Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society CONTACT: Khurram Parvez, Programme Coordinator +91-9419013553; +91-194-2482820 khurramparvez at yahoo.com; khurram at jkccs.org   Jammu Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society (JKCCS) feels aggrieved on the recent grenade blasts in the public places by hitherto unknown actors, begging for a thorough and professional investigation for truth regarding actual perpetrators. It is incumbent upon the state agencies to clear the air about the prevailing thick public suspicion regarding the perpetrators. Similarly it is incumbent upon the non-state combatant groups operating in Jammu and Kashmir to come out clearly on attacks ascribed to them by the state police.   On 20th July at Gulmarg a grenade was thrown near the post office in which 2 civilians died, including a tourist. On 24th July a grenade was thrown at the crowded Batmaloo bus stand in which five persons of a single family, including four minors, were killed and 22 injured. Besides many other grenade blasts have taken place across Jammu and Kashmir recently which has resulted into huge civilian casualties.   JKCCS considers these blasts a despicable act of violence and condemns it unequivocally. Targeting of civilians in any armed conflict is not only a violation of Geneva Convention but also amounts to a war crime. Typical of conflict situations like that of Jammu and Kashmir , we do not know who is perpetrating these crimes.   The United Jehad Council (UJC) in 2007 has committed: “It is our conviction that fundamental rules protecting the dignity of all human beings must be upheld at all times. We therefore declare that we shall henceforth conduct our struggle for self determination guided by the rules of the four Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949 for the protection of the victims of armed conflicts…” As UJC itself has committed to abiding by Geneva Convention and has denounced use of grenades especially in crowded places in which civilians suffer.   It is pertinent to mention here that United Jehad Council in its Code of Conduct says, “Each constituent group will ensure that its Mujahid/Mujahideen shall not target any non-combatant; non-Muslim men, women, and children”. The Code of Conduct also commits, “Each constituent shall abstain from targeting any public places like, schools, religious places, hospitals, markets and population settlements in any case”.   In the context of above mentioned pledges of UJC, we demand the truth about these blasts be made public and perpetrators responsible for these gruesome acts identified. The UJC cannot afford to ignore their commitment towards the people of Jammu and Kashmir and refrain from silence about such incidents in view of their stated commitments.   We urge all the stake holders in Jammu and Kashmir to ensure the safety of all civilians.   We also call upon the Indian state to minimize stakes in violence so that alternative means to resolve the conflict are encouraged.   Ends… From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sat Jul 26 16:41:05 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 07:11:05 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic Terrorism In-Reply-To: <570342.96302.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <570342.96302.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <488B0649.3060608@gmail.com> Hasina, Glad to see you have got it! Everybody has some instrumental value, even if I hate their guts. By the way, a "personal" question: what exactly is the connection between wonton and warrior princess? Tapas hasina hasan wrote: > > Tapas: i'm extremely fortunate, that's very true. thank you for the wise > words. though i couldnt have my morning cuppa and today's slogan came to > me thus. > "i dont hate curdled milk. it makes for some good dessert." > From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sat Jul 26 16:43:46 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 07:13:46 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic Terrorism] Message-ID: <488B06EA.2090703@gmail.com> I mean, other than the underscore. -------- Original Message -------- Hasina, ... what exactly is the connection between wonton and warrior princess? Tapas hasina hasan wrote: > > Tapas: i'm extremely fortunate, that's very true. thank you for the wise > words. though i couldnt have my morning cuppa and today's slogan came to > me thus. > "i dont hate curdled milk. it makes for some good dessert." > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 26 16:58:53 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 04:28:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Is JKCCS an extension of United Jehad Council? In-Reply-To: <613282.90705.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <753641.13541.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Surprises never cease.   The JKCCS "Release" reveals JKCCS as an extension of the United Jehad Council. That would make a mockery of the "Civil Society" part of the JKCCS acronym.   Making itself indistiguishable from (and as the voice of) United Jehad Council, the KCCS "Release" proclaims:   QUOTE  In the context of above mentioned pledges of UJC, we demand the truth about these blasts be made public and perpetrators responsible for these gruesome acts identified. The UJC cannot afford to ignore their commitment towards the people of Jammu and Kashmir and refrain from silence about such incidents in view of their stated commitments. UNQUOTE   That was the KCCS speaking. Speaking in it's UJC voice.   Kshmendra     --- On Sat, 7/26/08, Khurram Parvez wrote: From: Khurram Parvez Subject: [Reader-list] JKCCS condemns and seeks probe into recent grenade blasts To: "SARAI" Date: Saturday, July 26, 2008, 3:55 PM FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Srinagar, Friday, 25 July 2008   From: Jammu Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society CONTACT: Khurram Parvez, Programme Coordinator +91-9419013553; +91-194-2482820 khurramparvez at yahoo.com; khurram at jkccs.org   Jammu Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society (JKCCS) feels aggrieved on the recent grenade blasts in the public places by hitherto unknown actors, begging for a thorough and professional investigation for truth regarding actual perpetrators. It is incumbent upon the state agencies to clear the air about the prevailing thick public suspicion regarding the perpetrators. Similarly it is incumbent upon the non-state combatant groups operating in Jammu and Kashmir to come out clearly on attacks ascribed to them by the state police.   On 20th July at Gulmarg a grenade was thrown near the post office in which 2 civilians died, including a tourist. On 24th July a grenade was thrown at the crowded Batmaloo bus stand in which five persons of a single family, including four minors, were killed and 22 injured. Besides many other grenade blasts have taken place across Jammu and Kashmir recently which has resulted into huge civilian casualties.   JKCCS considers these blasts a despicable act of violence and condemns it unequivocally. Targeting of civilians in any armed conflict is not only a violation of Geneva Convention but also amounts to a war crime. Typical of conflict situations like that of Jammu and Kashmir , we do not know who is perpetrating these crimes.   The United Jehad Council (UJC) in 2007 has committed: “It is our conviction that fundamental rules protecting the dignity of all human beings must be upheld at all times. We therefore declare that we shall henceforth conduct our struggle for self determination guided by the rules of the four Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949 for the protection of the victims of armed conflicts…” As UJC itself has committed to abiding by Geneva Convention and has denounced use of grenades especially in crowded places in which civilians suffer.   It is pertinent to mention here that United Jehad Council in its Code of Conduct says, “Each constituent group will ensure that its Mujahid/Mujahideen shall not target any non-combatant; non-Muslim men, women, and children”. The Code of Conduct also commits, “Each constituent shall abstain from targeting any public places like, schools, religious places, hospitals, markets and population settlements in any case”.   In the context of above mentioned pledges of UJC, we demand the truth about these blasts be made public and perpetrators responsible for these gruesome acts identified. The UJC cannot afford to ignore their commitment towards the people of Jammu and Kashmir and refrain from silence about such incidents in view of their stated commitments.   We urge all the stake holders in Jammu and Kashmir to ensure the safety of all civilians.   We also call upon the Indian state to minimize stakes in violence so that alternative means to resolve the conflict are encouraged.   Ends… _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Jul 26 18:40:35 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 18:10:35 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Is JKCCS an extension of United Jehad Council? In-Reply-To: <753641.13541.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <613282.90705.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <753641.13541.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Unfortunately issue with the citizens of Kashmir of majority faith is that they want the freedom of India, but are wagging tails for their holy land, Pakistan, the issue can be sorted out once for all by wiping the boundary and merging pakistan and bangladesh with united India. On one hand these fanatics enjoy freedom and rights of democratic India, enjoy the benefits of governance, safety and rights, but forget their duties when it comes to democratic life.? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul Date: Saturday, July 26, 2008 4:59 pm Subject: [Reader-list] Is JKCCS an extension of United Jehad Council? To: SARAI , khurramparvez at yahoo.com > Surprises never cease. >   > The JKCCS "Release" reveals JKCCS as an extension of the United > Jehad Council. That would make a mockery of the "Civil Society" > part of the JKCCS acronym. >   > Making itself indistiguishable from (and as the voice of) United > Jehad Council, the KCCS "Release" proclaims: >   > QUOTE >  In the context of above mentioned pledges of UJC, we demand the > truth about these blasts be made public and perpetrators > responsible for these gruesome acts identified. The UJC cannot > afford to ignore their commitment towards the people of Jammu and > Kashmir and refrain from silence about such incidents in view of > their stated commitments. > UNQUOTE >   > That was the KCCS speaking. Speaking in it's UJC voice. >   > Kshmendra >   >   > > --- On Sat, 7/26/08, Khurram Parvez wrote: > > From: Khurram Parvez > Subject: [Reader-list] JKCCS condemns and seeks probe into recent > grenade blasts > To: "SARAI" > Date: Saturday, July 26, 2008, 3:55 PM > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > Srinagar, Friday, 25 July 2008 >   > From: Jammu Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society > CONTACT: Khurram Parvez, Programme Coordinator > +91-9419013553; +91-194-2482820 > khurramparvez at yahoo.com; khurram at jkccs.org >   > Jammu > Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society (JKCCS) feels aggrieved on the > recent grenade blasts in the public places by hitherto unknown actors, > begging for a thorough and professional investigation for truth > regarding actual perpetrators. It is incumbent upon the state agencies > to clear the air about the prevailing thick public suspicion regarding > the perpetrators. Similarly it is incumbent upon the non-state > combatant groups operating in Jammu and Kashmir to come out > clearly on attacks > ascribed to them by the state police. >   > On 20th July at Gulmarg a grenade was thrown near the post office > in which 2 > civilians died, including a tourist. On 24th > July a grenade was thrown at the crowded Batmaloo bus stand in which > five persons of a single family, including four minors, were > killed and > 22 injured. Besides many other grenade blasts have taken place across > Jammu and Kashmir recently which has resulted into huge civilian > casualties. >   > JKCCS > considers these blasts a despicable act of violence and condemns it > unequivocally. Targeting of civilians in any armed conflict is not > onlya violation of Geneva Convention but also amounts to a war > crime. Typical of > conflict situations like that of Jammu and Kashmir , we do not > know who is > perpetrating these crimes. >   > The United Jehad Council (UJC) in 2007 has committed: “It > is our conviction that fundamental rules protecting the dignity of all > human beings must be upheld at all times. We therefore declare > that we > shall henceforth conduct our struggle for self determination > guided by > the rules of the four Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949 for the > protectionof the victims of armed conflicts…” As > UJC itself has committed to abiding by Geneva Convention and has > denounced use of grenades especially in crowded places in which > civilians suffer. >   > It is pertinent to mention here that United Jehad Council in its > Code of > Conduct says, “Each > constituent group will ensure that its Mujahid/Mujahideen shall not > target any non-combatant; non-Muslim men, women, and children”. > The Code of > Conduct also commits, “Each > constituent shall abstain from targeting any public places like, > schools, religious places, hospitals, markets and population > settlements in any case”. >   > In > the context of above mentioned pledges of UJC, we demand the truth > about these blasts be made public and perpetrators responsible for > these gruesome acts identified. The UJC cannot afford to ignore their > commitment towards the people of Jammu and Kashmir and refrain from > silence about such incidents in view of their stated commitments. >   > We urge all the stake holders in Jammu and Kashmir to ensure the > safety of all > civilians. >   > We > also call upon the Indian state to minimize stakes in violence so that > alternative means to resolve the conflict are encouraged. >   > Ends… > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Jul 26 19:16:58 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 06:46:58 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=60Analysis_of_the_Karnataka_Elect?= =?windows-1252?q?ion_Results=92-_James_Manor=2C_CSDS=2C_1st_August?= =?windows-1252?q?=2C_2=3A30_PM?= In-Reply-To: References: <32144e990807250740m280d1249oc80ab78a94c2881e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990807260646i3d8b7b29vc6076e89ca827736@mail.gmail.com> Dear Radhikarajen, a) Which party does not have 'history sheeters' ? They all have criminals and 'enforcers' who 'handle problems' b) Mention any party that is not catering to certain groups or sub-groups. They all do. The unfortunate fact of the matter is that all parties in India today are prime examples of bad governance where ever thay are in power. Rgds, Partha ................. On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 2:33 AM, wrote: > Truth is always bitter to many who like to see the sweetness of divisive > politics and bad governance, as otherwise how citizens can be happy with the > elected MPs like Sangliana and others who sold their votes ? > > Take the low intensity strikes of blasts in a city like bangalore, Jaipur > or Bombay, where innocents have to die, face the miseries with injuries , > all these make our politicians run into blame game, but in practise it is > hypocracy at work, as we do not have the courage to corner the anti-social > elements who like the nation in constant state of bad governance with > discrimination to citizens, pampering of votebanks for the faith, caste and > religion.? > > A policeman is obstructed when he accosts persons who keep pig in the > place of worship and all the arrested are rowdy sheeters of the same faith > doing haram jobs for a politician, and the investigation is stuck low key, > as it would offend the feeling of a faith.! > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Partha Dasgupta > Date: Friday, July 25, 2008 8:10 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] `Analysis of the Karnataka Election Results'- > James Manor, CSDS, 1st August, 2:30 PM > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Dear Radhikarajen, > > > > You seem to have this strange hatred of the INC that seems to hit > > you like a > > wave and blind you from any logic where the party is concerned. > > Logic (and > > sadly, language & grammer as well) flies out of the window and all > > thatcomes out is a flow of acid. > > > > Would suggest you look at what you are writing where, and the > > relevance of > > it. > > > > There were some earlier postings of yours that I used to atleast enjoy > > reading, but the recent ones are pretty incoherent. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ................................. > > > > On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 8:03 PM, wrote: > > > > > Now that it is post martem of the results of Karnataka > > elections, it is > > > sincerely hoped that it is not co;oured like the pre poll survey > > of CNNIBN > > > and Yogendra Yadav, who preferred to manipulate the statstics to > > please the > > > delhi boss, oh, sorry delhi mafiosi, madam,? > > > > > > Regards. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Rajesh Ramakrishnan > > > Date: Friday, July 25, 2008 5:27 pm > > > Subject: [Reader-list] `Analysis of the Karnataka Election > > Results'- James > > > Manor, CSDS, 1st August, 2:30 PM > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > Friday, 1st August, 2008 > > > > > > > > You are invited to a talk on: > > > > > > > > > > > > `Analysis of the Karnataka Election Results' > > > > > > > > By James Manor > > > > > > > > at 2:30 PM in the Seminar Hall, CSDS, 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi – > > 110 054 > > > > > > > > > > > > Professor James Manor is Emeka Anyaoku Chair in Commonwealth > > Studies> > at the Institute of Commonwealth Studies, School of > > Advanced Study, > > > > University of London. Earlier, he was a Professorial Fellow at the > > > > Institute of Development Studies at Sussex, and VKRV Rao Endowment > > > > Professor at the Institute for Social and Economic Change in > > > > Bangalore. He has held positions at the Universities of Leicester, > > > > London, Harvard, Sussex and Yale. He was the Director of the > > Institute> > of Commonwealth Studies for four years during the 1990s. > > > > > > > > Professor Manor specialises in the study of politics and state- > > society> > relations, mainly in South and East Asia. He has > > published several > > > > books including Aid that Works: Successful Development > > Programs in > > > > Fragile States (World Bank, 2006), Democracy & > > Decentralisation in > > > > South Asia & West Africa: Participation, Accountability and > > > > Performance (with Richard Crook) (Cambridge University Press, > > 1998),> > Nehru to the Nineties: the Changing Office of Prime > > Minister in India > > > > (Penguin/Hurst, 1994), Power, Poverty and Poison: Disaster and > > > > Response in an Indian City (Sage: 1993) and Rethinking Third World > > > > Politics (Longman, 1991). A forthcoming book is (with Marcus > > Melo and > > > > Njuguna N'gethe) Against the Odds: Politicians, Institutions > > and the > > > > Struggle against Poverty. > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > list > > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919811047132 > > > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 26 19:34:13 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 07:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic Terrorism In-Reply-To: <570342.96302.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <649673.49219.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> very skillfully written, loved it, read it again and again and again>>>>>>>>   """""" .... my maoist fringe wont obstruct an otherwise benign view""""""" --- On Sat, 7/26/08, hasina hasan wrote: From: hasina hasan Subject: Re: [Reader-list] American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic Terrorism To: "Tapas Ray" , "TaraPrakash" Cc: "sarai list" Date: Saturday, July 26, 2008, 11:44 AM hmm ...yesterday i went out and about as per my day plan. today i'm going to look at the numbers from revenue so affected by sparse turnout at work. i win some. i lose some. Radhikarajen: it's Hasina with an i. thank you. Tapas: i'm extremely fortunate, that's very true. thank you for the wise words. though i couldnt have my morning cuppa and today's slogan came to me thus. "i dont hate curdled milk. it makes for some good dessert." Tara: interestingly all through school i thought kids who's folks stuck "together forever" were a minority. there's a flipside to everything, you know. always some ying for the yang. misappropriated justice/feelings is just not my style anymore. waste of time..almost like yesterday's bombings. though yeah i do indulge in a little rhetoric now and then. Kshmendra: whereforth art thou? i figured it out: until i'm undone, insha allah my maoist fringe wont obstruct an otherwise benign view. cheers all, Hasina   --- On Fri, 25/7/08, TaraPrakash wrote: From: TaraPrakash Subject: Re: [Reader-list] American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic Terrorism To: "Tapas Ray" Cc: "sarai list" Date: Friday, 25 July, 2008, 9:40 AM That reminds me of an interview I heard with a former member of Cu Clux Clan. This group believes that the white people are superior. This reformed member asked his leader once. "What do we do when we have done away with all the niggers and other non-whites?" "Well, we'll look at the hair color then." So when you start looking for the reasons to hate, there will be several to find. My friend was hated in his community because he married a Brahmin from a caste lower than his. Not all Dalits will consider other Dalits as equals.. Hasina can loathe families with no history of inter-racial inter-caste marriage. Good luck finding them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tapas Ray" Cc: "sarai list" Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 6:41 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic Terrorism > Hasina, > > I think you are more fortunate than most people on this list. There's > some variety in your life. Instead of sticking to the same object of > hate every single day of the week, you can pick a different one, or a > different combination, for each day. Like those people who wear a > different colour for each day, or a different watch. But you will never > get there if you use your head. So remember to fill your head with a few > slogans of your choice with your first cup of tea or coffee each > morning. That way your ability to think will not come in the way. > > Tapas > > > > hasina hasan wrote: >> with no offense to myself, and trying to not be offensive here..as one >> can hardly keep from taking things personally what with being a person to >> begin with, >> i had to say. >> >> i have a mixed lineage of muslims, buddhists, tibetans, chinese and >> indians to name a few. what/who do i hate and who and what do i stand up >> for today? for i dont fall into any of the below mentioned sets >> generally. and then again perhaps i'm all of them altogether. hard to >> fill in the blank, >> >> it's hard to point within. >> >> what are your own views? what set of person are you? that would have been >> an interesting though not mandatory appendage to your thoughts aloud. >> >> or maybe just maybe, like me, you are too: an Über person. >> >> --- On Thu, 24/7/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > >> Just thinking aloud. >> >> One often comes across people (on SARAI and elsewhere) that can see: >> >> - Imperialism as the defining aspect of the Americans/USA (usually to the >> exclusion of all else) >> >> - Brahmanism as the defining aspect of Hindus/Hinduism (usually to the >> exclusion of all else) >> >> - Terrorism as the defining aspect of Muslims/Islam (usually to the >> exclusion >> of all else) >> >> These are just 3 examples. >> >> In a >> curious sort of way such sets of people (whichever their favourite >> 'hate' might be) are alike in the manner in which they view things. >> Their 'obsessiveness' clouds their intellect and ability to look at >> things in context. >> >> Just a thought. >> >> Kshmendra >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Messenger blocked? Want to chat? Go to http://in.webmessenger.yahoo.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 26 19:56:14 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 07:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] > 4. American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic Terrorism In-Reply-To: <20080725063708.27124.qmail@f4mail-235-146.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <168691.56820.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Radhakrishnan   Just one point.   "Brahmanism" does not refer to Brahmins alone when used in a sociological or political reference frames. It encompasses all 3 Varna ie Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya. These 3 were considered to be 'twice born'. In varying degrees each had privileges.   The ones spoken about and treated in the most horrific manner were the Shudras.   The deeprooted anger, resentment and contempt of the Shudras towards the other 3 is fully understandable. In my opinion, it is also welcome for the purpose of rectifying many of the 'ills' of India.    Kshmendra   --- On Fri, 7/25/08, Radhakrishnan wrote: From: Radhakrishnan Subject: Re: [Reader-list] > 4. American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic Terrorism To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Friday, July 25, 2008, 12:07 PM Dear All, I am at loss to understand why there has been a systematic campaign and use of abusive language mocking at people based on their birth, ethnicity etc. Logically speaking Upper caste since last 30 years doesn't mean Brahmins in Tamilnad where Dalits are hounded by non Brahmin Upper Caste some of whom are classified as OBCs though there is no indicator to highlight their social or economic backwardness. So is the case in states like Uttar Pradesh.Instead of certain city based anglicised writers kindly try to seek opinion from Dalit thinkers and writiers (15% SC and 7% ST)So if it some research scholars are writing then kindly exercise caution. Secondly why the problem of casteism is being taken out of context for addressing other issues. WHy should brahmanism or even brahmins be targetted for the prevailing inequality among Christian, Muslims and Buddhist societies. One does convert to other faith and certainly exercise conversion as moral weapon as Baba saheb exercised this choice. After all Indian social order can't be the referece point to address the xenophobic tendencies in Europe vis a vis the Turks, Kurdish people, the deeply embedded prejudices against the Afro-Americans in the US (Mohammad Ali from Cassius Clay, the Rosa Parks, Rodney King episode etc). Finally why Hindu and Islamic religion are so selectively targetted for religious extremism. In India we are witness to Hindu or Islamic communalism/fundamentalism and not fascism.Earlier we had witnessed Sikh extremism for some time during 1980-1990.There are also pockets of Christian fundamentalism (kerala, Naga extremism etc)in the country but certainly quite small in propotion compared to Hindu and Muslim communalism. One could avoid these colonial obsession with western terminologies. After all how would one address issues of internal colonialism within India and misgovernance. Ther has been upteen no of cases where in so called cosmopolitan cities like Delhi people from Northeast, South are mocked at, their intellect lampooned on the baseis of their appearance and colour. Is it also a classic example of Hindu brahmanism! Radhakrishnan >Message: 4 >Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:34:16 -0700 (PDT) > From: Kshmendra Kaul >Subject: [Reader-list] American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic > Terrorism >To: sarai list >Message-ID: <999742.76199.qm at web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >Just thinking aloud. > >One often comes across people (on SARAI and elsewhere) that can see: > >- Imperialism as the defining aspect of the Americans/USA (usually to the exclusion of all else) > >- Brahmanism as the defining aspect of Hindus/Hinduism (usually to the exclusion of all else) > >- Terrorism as the defining aspect of Muslims/Islam (usually to the exclusion of all else) > >These are just 3 examples. > >In a curious sort of way such sets of people (whichever their favourite 'hate' might be) are alike in the manner in which they view things. Their 'obsessiveness' clouds their intellect and ability to look at things in context. > >Just a thought. > >Kshmendra Cell - 9818063517 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in Sat Jul 26 20:44:26 2008 From: ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in (Ranjith Thankappan) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:44:26 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] IIM RESERVATION: Kozhikode Shows The Way Message-ID: <429691.18575.qm@web8703.mail.in.yahoo.com> Perhaps u r talkng abt political reservation. That too was contextual. How could the venom of brahminsm (not brahmins) be completely washed away within a decade? if we cant cure it even after this many years, it d be foolish to think of curing it within 10 years. one needs to annihilate it, as rightly put forth by Ambedkar. The caste/cultural capital of "upper" castes have made social reservation for them. It still continues. Ambedkarite reservation policy uses govermentality to counter it and therby transform various cultural spheres into a democratic and inclusive one. And it was along with Ambedkar that Dalits of this country declared; "We wont die as Hindu". It s history. ----- Original Message ---- From: Prabhakar Singh To: Ranjith Thankappan Sent: Saturday, 26 July, 2008 1:47:13 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] IIM RESERVATION: Kozhikode Shows The Way Ambedkar had made a very cautious  provision for reservation only for initial 10 years for only very limited section of the society.But now it is perpetual for the divisive vote-bank politics and about to touch 100% as per increasing demands from different sections of the society.We should learn from what Nelson Mandela has done in South Africa to bind and integrate different sections of the society there. It will better if we can have a semblance of respect for one-another and refrain from  using insulting and derogatory words in this forum whatsoever may be the difference in opinion.It is the difference in opinion which keeps this forum alive by  generating useful discussions enlightening us in the process.Moderator of the forum may kindly look into this aspect and stop such abusive e-mails from circulation and maintain some kind of decency,respectability and discipline. Prabhakar ----- Original Message ---- From: Ranjith Thankappan To: Prabhakar Singh Cc: sarai Sent: Friday, 25 July, 2008 9:15:31 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] IIM RESERVATION: Kozhikode Shows The Way Ambedkar demanded separate electorates. It s foolish to argue that he was against reservation. He was against Hindu Brahmnical domination and brutality dear... ----- Original Message ---- From: Prabhakar Singh To: Ranjith Thankappan Sent: Saturday, 26 July, 2008 12:30:03 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] IIM RESERVATION: Kozhikode Shows The Way The process of enabling by providing necessary facilities and environment is required irrespective of caste,religion,region etc. instead of  reservation.Even B.R.Ambedkar was against such reservation. Prabhakar  ----- Original Message ---- From: Ranjith Thankappan To: sarai Sent: Thursday, 24 July, 2008 8:02:25 PM Subject: [Reader-list] IIM RESERVATION: Kozhikode Shows The Way There are many ways. This could be one of them. Dont hesitate to rescue yourself from the narrow brahmanical caste meritocraZy. Say YES to reservation; democratise yourself,;democratise brahmincal indian society let the real talent come to these educational agraharas and make it a better place of higher learning. jai bheem!! http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20060424&fname=Cover+Story+%28F%29&sid=3 Kozhikode Shows The Way A state initiative is imparting Dalit-Adivasis professional skill S. ANAND Much before the nation began debating reservation in IITs and IIMs, a slow revolution had begun unfolding at the Centre for Excellence (CEx) in Kozhikode. Established in June 2002 with the support of the SC/ST development department of the Kerala government, CEx has been under the "incubation" of IIM, Kozhikode. It offers a five-month Certificate Course for Professional Development (CCPD), currently open only to Dalit and Adivasi graduates from Kerala. According to Damodaran Nampoothiri, programme director: "The course is focused towards imparting communication, IT and managerial skills, personality development and entrepreneurship. The students then either opt for higher studies or get jobs in the public and private sectors." The Kerala government subsidises the project entirely and pays each student a Rs 2,000 monthly stipend. In six batches till 2005, a total of 208 Dalit and Adivasi students have passed out of CEx. Of these, 37 have opted for higher studies, 34 have found employment, accounting for a 35 per cent success rate. Some students, such as K.R. Dilraj, have successfully taken the CAT and procured an MBA from IIM, Kozhikode. "Before joining CEx, Dilraj was a court clerk. Today, he earns Rs 8 lakh per annum as bank assurance manager with ICICI Lombard Insurance in Hyderabad," says Nampoothiri. ICICI Lombard recruited Dilraj not because he was an Adivasi. He was just good for the job. CEx believes merit is nothing but the availability of opportunity. An opportunity M.M. Risha of Kozhikode also availed of. She came to CEx in July 2003 with a BTech in Electronics and Communications besides 18 months of experience as lecturer. After the CEx diploma, she completed her MTech and is now systems analyst with Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu in Hyderabad. Her salary of Rs 2.7 lakh per annum may pale in comparison to what IIM toppers get, but factor this: she's the first graduate in her family. "My mother teaches preschool, and father works as a coolie," she says. She acknowledges the significance of CEx in her development: "What we acquired there was not just technical knowledge. We were equipped with analytical skills, ability to interact in discussions and given a booster dose of self-confidence. Crucially, I felt comfortable being with other Dalit-Adivasi students." Says A.R. Vasavi, professor of sociology at the National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, and advisor to CEx: "The quota policy won't work without a focused and targeted programme. The CEx package is tailored to specific needs of students. What's the point if IIMs take Dalit-Adivasi students and neglect them? CEx accomplishes in five months what other institutes can't in three years." Vasavi appreciates that the CCPD gives young Dalits and Adivasis a sense of citizenship and tackles issues like stigma via counselling. O.C. Geetha, a 2004 batch alumnus, now with Infosys Technologies in Thiruvananthapuram, says CEx instilled confidence in her. "Specifically, William H. Mackaden, a faculty member. For the first time, on his insistence, I participated in an English-language drama. Schooled in Walapad village, Thrissur, I wasn't confident because of my rural background. I knew the language, but was afraid of expressing myself." Post-CEx, Geetha, an electronics grad, did well in the Cochin University MBA entrance and also landed the Infosys job. "I preferred the job as my father had just retired." Geetha also adds that their Sunday interactions with IIM-K students were crucial. "Being on the IIM campus, though apart from it, gave us access to MBA students who were very supportive." With the three-year incubation period at IIM-K coming to an end, CEx has sought the support of the SC/ST development department to turn into an autonomous institution called the Centre for Research and Education for Social Transformation (crest). Says Amarnath H.Kalro, IIM-K's director when CEx was conceptualised: "CEx was started in response to a specific request from the Kerala government to help SC/ST students. Its model can and should be duplicated by all IIMs. After the incubation, they can become independent." Given that IIMs and IITs have been unable to fulfil the 22.5 per cent Dalit-Adivasi quota, Kalro thinks there's need for such centres in every state. "Most states have coaching centres for civil services aspirants among SCs and STs. I wonder why similar efforts are lacking when it comes to IITs and IIMs." -- " The so called caste-hindus are bitterly opposed to the depressed class using a public tank not because they really believe that the water will be thereby spoiled or will evaporate but because they are afraid of losing their superiority of caste and of equality being established between the former and the latter. We are resorting to this satyagraha not becasue we believe that the water of this particular tank has any exceptional qualities, but to establish our natural rights as citizens and human beings." - Dr B.R. Ambedkar, Mahad Satyagraha Conference, December 25th , 1927 --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Our Media" group. To post to this group, send email to our-media at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to our-media-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/our-media?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- -- Ranjit       From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>       Bring your gang together. Do your thing. Find your favourite Yahoo! group at http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ ________________________________ Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now ________________________________ Bring your gang together. Do your thing. Find your favourite Yahoo! Group. Bring your gang together. Do your thing. Find your favourite Yahoo! group at http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sat Jul 26 21:07:18 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 11:37:18 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] IIM RESERVATION: Kozhikode Shows The Way In-Reply-To: References: <429691.18575.qm@web8703.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 1. I second Prabhakar's comment on the language of these posts. 2. I think the list would benefit from an explanation of the notion that Ambedkarite reservation policy uses "governmentality" to counter upper-caste monopoly (incomplete as it has been) in education, jobs, etc. Tapas 2008/7/26 Ranjith Thankappan : > Perhaps u r talkng abt political reservation. That too was contextual. > How could the venom of brahminsm (not brahmins) be completely washed away within a decade? if we cant cure it even after this many years, it d be foolish to think of curing it within 10 years. one needs to annihilate it, as rightly put forth by Ambedkar. > The caste/cultural capital of "upper" castes have made social reservation for them. It still continues. Ambedkarite reservation policy uses govermentality to counter it and therby transform various cultural spheres into a democratic and inclusive one. And it was along with Ambedkar that Dalits of this country declared; "We wont die as Hindu". It s history. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Prabhakar Singh > To: Ranjith Thankappan > Sent: Saturday, 26 July, 2008 1:47:13 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] IIM RESERVATION: Kozhikode Shows The Way > > > Ambedkar had made a very cautious provision for reservation only for initial 10 years for only very limited section of the society.But now it is perpetual for the divisive vote-bank politics and about to touch 100% as per increasing demands from different sections of the society.We should learn from what Nelson Mandela has done in South Africa to bind and integrate different sections of the society there. > It will better if we can have a semblance of respect for one-another and refrain from using insulting and derogatory words in this forum whatsoever may be the difference in opinion.It is the difference in opinion which keeps this forum alive by generating useful discussions enlightening us in the process.Moderator of the forum may kindly look into this aspect and stop such abusive e-mails from circulation and maintain some kind of decency,respectability and discipline. > Prabhakar > From nt at neurotransmitter.fm Sat Jul 26 23:17:46 2008 From: nt at neurotransmitter.fm (valerie tevere) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 13:47:46 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Another Protest Song archive Message-ID: Dear Sarai list, Please pass on the following information to artists, musicians, DJs, and peers of whom you think might take interest. With Another Protest Song we're most interested in rethinking this genre of music which in certain ways is stuck in decades past. The site has received quite a good turn out so far and we're hoping to continue to grow the archive exponentially in the coming months. Please see below and share. http://www.anotherprotestsong.org/ All the best, Nevarez & Tevere -- CALLING ALL ARTISTS, SONGWRITERS, MUSICIANS... What does a 21st Century Protest Song sound like? Given the continuing political climate, we feel it is time for another protest song to be sung. Upload and share your jam today! Politically engaged music is not only a consequence of history or nostalgia, but can be timely and pertinent commentary on our contemporary world. Another Protest Song is a collaborative project which uses the social networking space of the internet to archive and debate contemporary protest music. The project went public in late May and has become a daily/weekly growing archive with a number of original protest songs uploaded and shared by you the user, and other ideological persuaders. Fine tune your power chords, generate new lyrics and poetry, and set your protest to song. To upload, listen, and comment, check out http://www.anotherprotestsong.org -- Another Protest Song is a project of Angel Nevarez and Valerie Tevere; part of their continuing investigation of contemporary music, dissent, and public fora. www.neurotransmitter.fm The project archive will be included in Creative Time's Democracy in America: The National Campaign, a national program investigating the historic roots and practical manifestations of the American democratic tradition. www.creativetime.org -- http://www.neurotransmitter.fm/ http://www.anotherprotestsong.org/ http://www.fmferryexperiment.net/ From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Sun Jul 27 00:36:43 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 12:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] IIM RESERVATION: Kozhikode Shows The Way Message-ID: <506787.5874.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The moderator of this forum may kindly comment on the circulation of abusive language. Prabhakar ----- Original Message ---- From: Tapas Ray To: sarai Sent: Saturday, 26 July, 2008 8:37:18 AM Subject: [Reader-list] IIM RESERVATION: Kozhikode Shows The Way 1. I second Prabhakar's comment on the language of these posts. 2. I think the list would benefit from an explanation of the notion that Ambedkarite reservation policy uses "governmentality" to counter upper-caste monopoly (incomplete as it has been) in education, jobs, etc. Tapas 2008/7/26 Ranjith Thankappan : > Perhaps u r talkng abt political reservation. That too was contextual. > How could the venom of brahminsm (not brahmins) be completely washed away within a decade? if we cant cure it even after this many years, it d be foolish to think of curing it within 10 years. one needs to annihilate it, as rightly put forth by Ambedkar. > The caste/cultural capital of "upper" castes have made social reservation for them. It still continues. Ambedkarite reservation policy uses govermentality to counter it and therby transform various cultural spheres into a democratic and inclusive one. And it was along with Ambedkar that Dalits of this country declared; "We wont die as Hindu". It s history. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Prabhakar Singh > To: Ranjith Thankappan > Sent: Saturday, 26 July, 2008 1:47:13 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] IIM RESERVATION: Kozhikode Shows The Way > > > Ambedkar had made a very cautious  provision for reservation only for initial 10 years for only very limited section of the society.But now it is perpetual for the divisive vote-bank politics and about to touch 100% as per increasing demands from different sections of the society.We should learn from what Nelson Mandela has done in South Africa to bind and integrate different sections of the society there. > It will better if we can have a semblance of respect for one-another and refrain from  using insulting and derogatory words in this forum whatsoever may be the difference in opinion.It is the difference in opinion which keeps this forum alive by  generating useful discussions enlightening us in the process.Moderator of the forum may kindly look into this aspect and stop such abusive e-mails from circulation and maintain some kind of decency,respectability and discipline. > Prabhakar > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Jul 27 03:21:21 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 17:51:21 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] IIM RESERVATION: Kozhikode Shows The Way References: <506787.5874.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <026a01c8ef69$c044d480$73387946@taraprakash> Unfortunately or otherwise, this list is not moderated. We have seen in the past on this list that members finally go for the self moderation. The secular/pseudo secular, communal/pseudo communal, and now castist and pseudo castist members have used offensive language in the past but sooner or later better sense prevails. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Prabhakar Singh" To: "Tapas Ray" ; "sarai" Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] IIM RESERVATION: Kozhikode Shows The Way > The moderator of this forum may kindly comment on the circulation of > abusive language. > Prabhakar > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Tapas Ray > To: sarai > Sent: Saturday, 26 July, 2008 8:37:18 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] IIM RESERVATION: Kozhikode Shows The Way > > 1. I second Prabhakar's comment on the language of these posts. > > 2. I think the list would benefit from an explanation of the notion > that Ambedkarite reservation policy uses "governmentality" to counter > upper-caste monopoly (incomplete as it has been) in education, jobs, > etc. > > Tapas > > > 2008/7/26 Ranjith Thankappan : >> Perhaps u r talkng abt political reservation. That too was contextual. >> How could the venom of brahminsm (not brahmins) be completely washed away >> within a decade? if we cant cure it even after this many years, it d be >> foolish to think of curing it within 10 years. one needs to annihilate >> it, as rightly put forth by Ambedkar. >> The caste/cultural capital of "upper" castes have made social reservation >> for them. It still continues. Ambedkarite reservation policy uses >> govermentality to counter it and therby transform various cultural >> spheres into a democratic and inclusive one. And it was along with >> Ambedkar that Dalits of this country declared; "We wont die as Hindu". It >> s history. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Prabhakar Singh >> To: Ranjith Thankappan >> Sent: Saturday, 26 July, 2008 1:47:13 PM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] IIM RESERVATION: Kozhikode Shows The Way >> >> >> Ambedkar had made a very cautious provision for reservation only for >> initial 10 years for only very limited section of the society.But now it >> is perpetual for the divisive vote-bank politics and about to touch 100% >> as per increasing demands from different sections of the society.We >> should learn from what Nelson Mandela has done in South Africa to bind >> and integrate different sections of the society there. >> It will better if we can have a semblance of respect for one-another and >> refrain from using insulting and derogatory words in this forum >> whatsoever may be the difference in opinion.It is the difference in >> opinion which keeps this forum alive by generating useful discussions >> enlightening us in the process.Moderator of the forum may kindly look >> into this aspect and stop such abusive e-mails from circulation and >> maintain some kind of decency,respectability and discipline. >> Prabhakar >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. > Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in Sun Jul 27 10:37:53 2008 From: ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in (Ranjith Thankappan) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 10:37:53 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] IIM RESERVATION: Kozhikode Shows The Way Message-ID: <5999.72633.qm@web8708.mail.in.yahoo.com> 1) I also second the question of language. but not in the vein of prabhakar. The language of counter culture will always be offensive to the oppressors. 2) the silent revolution happening in Indian society s testimony to it. look beyond the caste-blinded satvik 'selves" ... any one can see it/ ----- Original Message ---- From: Tapas Ray To: Ranjith Thankappan Sent: Saturday, 26 July, 2008 9:04:34 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] IIM RESERVATION: Kozhikode Shows The Way 1. I second Prabhakar's comment on the language of these posts. 2. I think the list would benefit from an explanation of the notion that Ambedkarite reservation policy uses "governmentality" to counter upper-caste monopoly (incomplete as it has been) in education, jobs, etc. Tapas 2008/7/26 Ranjith Thankappan : > Perhaps u r talkng abt political reservation. That too was contextual. > How could the venom of brahminsm (not brahmins) be completely washed away within a decade? if we cant cure it even after this many years, it d be foolish to think of curing it within 10 years. one needs to annihilate it, as rightly put forth by Ambedkar. > The caste/cultural capital of "upper" castes have made social reservation for them. It still continues. Ambedkarite reservation policy uses govermentality to counter it and therby transform various cultural spheres into a democratic and inclusive one. And it was along with Ambedkar that Dalits of this country declared; "We wont die as Hindu". It s history. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Prabhakar Singh > To: Ranjith Thankappan > Sent: Saturday, 26 July, 2008 1:47:13 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] IIM RESERVATION: Kozhikode Shows The Way > > > Ambedkar had made a very cautious  provision for reservation only for initial 10 years for only very limited section of the society.But now it is perpetual for the divisive vote-bank politics and about to touch 100% as per increasing demands from different sections of the society.We should learn from what Nelson Mandela has done in South Africa to bind and integrate different sections of the society there. > It will better if we can have a semblance of respect for one-another and refrain from  using insulting and derogatory words in this forum whatsoever may be the difference in opinion.It is the difference in opinion which keeps this forum alive by  generating useful discussions enlightening us in the process.Moderator of the forum may kindly look into this aspect and stop such abusive e-mails from circulation and maintain some kind of decency,respectability and discipline. > Prabhakar > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Jul 27 14:03:43 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:03:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Speech, Blog, Iphone & Lies of Mr. Omar Abdullah Message-ID: <6b79f1a70807270133l52f9d86cvcf82a73e06611f0a@mail.gmail.com> http://thekashmir.wordpress.com/2008/07/27/omar/ Pls do post your views in comments section From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 27 14:17:47 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 01:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Blasts at public places in IHK handiwork of Indian agencies Message-ID: <512686.91157.qm@web57212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> The News Report is reproduced below. This Headliner claim is not surprising, seeing that it comes from Kashmir Media Service.   What I found much more interesting in the News Report were:   1. All Parties Hurriyet Conference quoted as stating - "........ such heinous acts of crime were being committed under a deep-rooted conspiracy to malign the ongoing freedom movement in the territory and give it a communal colour."   2. Tehreek-e-Hurriyet quoted as stating - "..... the act is aimed to trigger communal frenzy and panic in Kashmir"   It was a grenade blast at Batmaloo Bus Stand in which the 3 children and their father killed were all Muslims.   Why would the "Indian Agencies" arrange to kill Muslims if they wanted to create a 'communal frenzy' ?   If in Kashmir (Valley and Administrative Division) today, close to 100% of the population is Muslims, where would the 'communal frenzy' come from? Between whom and whom?   Is the "ongoing freedom movement in the territory" anything but 'communal' that someone would want to colour it anew in 'communal' colours?   Certainly the Hurriyatis are not so foolish that they would think that they can fool people into believeing that the "ongoing freedom movement" is not 'communal'.   Wait a minute, maybe the Hurriyatis are not so foolish after all. There are some some people (I would not dare to call them fools) in India and elsewhere (some on our very own SARAI) who do believe that the 'ongoing freedom struggle' is not 'communal'.   Kshmendra        http://www.kmsnews.org/news/blasts-public-places-ihk-handiwork-indian-agencies Blasts at public places in IHK handiwork of Indian agencies Srinagar, July 25 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, the grenade blast at Batamaloo bus stand in Srinagar, on Thursday, has sparked public outrage across the Valley with several political, social and religious organizations condemning it strongly and demanding an impartial probe to expose the perpetrators of this heinous act.   Five people including 3 children were killed and dozens others injured in the blast.   The spokesman of the All Parties Hurriyet Conference while condemning the blast expressed deep sorrow over the loss of innocent lives. Terming the blast as a horrible act of terrorism, he demanded impartial probe into the incident and exemplary punishment to the perpetrator. He said such heinous acts of crime were being committed under a deep-rooted conspiracy to malign the ongoing freedom movement in the territory and give it a communal colour.    Expressing strong indignation over the blast, Tehreek-e-Hurriyet in a statement in Srinagar termed the blast the handiwork of Indian agencies adding that the act is aimed to trigger communal frenzy and panic in Kashmir. It also demanded an impartial probe into the incident saying, “The perpetrators should be publicly hanged.”    Denouncing the blast, the spokesman of Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) expressed sympathies with the bereaved families and prayed for the speedy recovery of injured people.      Jamaat-e-Islami Jammu and Kashmir communicating pro-found grief over the loss of precious human lives in the blast termed it highly reprehensible act and demanded a judicial probe into the incident and condign punishment to the guilty.   Articulating serious concern over the incident, the Jammu Kashmir Muslim League termed it highly condemnable.        From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sun Jul 27 14:47:05 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:17:05 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Blasts at public places in IHK handiwork of Indianagencies In-Reply-To: <512686.91157.qm@web57212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <512686.91157.qm@web57212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Kshemendra, I am reminded of 50's when India first availed aids in wheat from America as wheat shortage was the story of the times. Later this aid was converted into loan as PL480, the funds were used for all unethical purposes by the then then central governance, to say the least, duly elected governance in Kerala was dismissed under art.356 as it was left parties which won the elections. As per the de-classified documents of America, then central minister was asked to use the funds for creating law and order issues so that centre could dismiss the government under art.356. So in 1957, duly elected democratic system of governance was dismissed which was headed by CM Namboodripad. Now with N-deal, the informed sources have told in private, the efforts to create law and order issues would be raked up in opposition ruled states which are opposed to the deal in the present form, by the present centre dispensation, using the loyal muslim MPs and MLAs to encourage trouble in the states. Then it was VK Krishna Menon who was instrumental in defeating the nation with the new found slogan of hindi chini bhai bhai, now, it is again the mallu gang which is self-servient and loyal to political party and not to nation, is repeating history, history repeats itself, first a farce, then as tragedy in this nation as seen by events of bomb blasts to discredit the system of state governance, as the report of some MPs is to be heard when they talk of intelligence failures etc. Tejaswini ramesh of karnatak went to the extent of saying that the governance was all wrong, so this is what happens. ! N-deal in the present form is a sure bait for the leadership to be subservient to leaders of America, with huge kickbacks in billions in trillion dollars in deals to be offloaded Fortunately, citizens are well aware of the designs and much more politically aware of the nefarious acts of indian leadership now in rule, with tainted votes of notes and free flow of misuse of autonomous bodies to brow beat the dissent. Regards.. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul Date: Sunday, July 27, 2008 2:18 pm Subject: [Reader-list] Blasts at public places in IHK handiwork of Indianagencies To: sarai list > The News Report is reproduced below. This Headliner claim is not > surprising, seeing that it comes from Kashmir Media Service. >   > What I found much more interesting in the News Report were: >   > 1. All Parties Hurriyet Conference quoted as stating - "........ > such heinous acts of crime were being committed under a deep- > rooted conspiracy to malign the ongoing freedom movement in the > territory and give it a communal colour." >   > 2. Tehreek-e-Hurriyet quoted as stating - "..... the act is aimed > to trigger communal frenzy and panic in Kashmir" >   > It was a grenade blast at Batmaloo Bus Stand in which the > 3 children and their father killed were all Muslims. >   > Why would the "Indian Agencies" arrange to kill Muslims if they > wanted to create a 'communal frenzy' ? >   > If in Kashmir (Valley and Administrative Division) today, close to > 100% of the population is Muslims, where would the 'communal > frenzy' come from? Between whom and whom? >   > Is the "ongoing freedom movement in the territory" anything but > 'communal' that someone would want to colour it anew in 'communal' > colours?  > Certainly the Hurriyatis are not so foolish that they would > think that they can fool people into believeing that the "ongoing > freedom movement" is not 'communal'. >   > Wait a minute, maybe the Hurriyatis are not so foolish after all. > There are some some people (I would not dare to call them fools) > in India and elsewhere (some on our very own SARAI) who do believe > that the 'ongoing freedom struggle' is not 'communal'. >   > Kshmendra >   >   >   >  http://www.kmsnews.org/news/blasts-public-places-ihk-handiwork- > indian-agencies > Blasts at public places in IHK handiwork of Indian agencies > > > > > > > Srinagar, July 25 (KMS): In occupied Kashmir, the grenade blast at > Batamaloo bus stand in Srinagar, on Thursday, has sparked public > outrage across the Valley with several political, social and > religious organizations condemning it strongly and demanding an > impartial probe to expose the perpetrators of this heinous act. >   > Five people including 3 children were killed and dozens others > injured in the blast. >   > The spokesman of the All Parties Hurriyet Conference while > condemning the blast expressed deep sorrow over the loss of > innocent lives. Terming the blast as a horrible act of terrorism, > he demanded impartial probe into the incident and exemplary > punishment to the perpetrator. He said such heinous acts of crime > were being committed under a deep-rooted conspiracy to malign the > ongoing freedom movement in the territory and give it a communal > colour.   > Expressing strong indignation over the blast, Tehreek-e-Hurriyet > in a statement in Srinagar termed the blast the handiwork of > Indian agencies adding that the act is aimed to trigger communal > frenzy and panic in Kashmir. It also demanded an impartial probe > into the incident saying, “The perpetrators should be publicly > hanged.”   > Denouncing the blast, the spokesman of Jammu and Kashmir > Liberation Front (JKLF) expressed sympathies with the bereaved > families and prayed for the speedy recovery of injured people.  >   >   > Jamaat-e-Islami Jammu and Kashmir communicating pro-found grief > over the loss of precious human lives in the blast termed it > highly reprehensible act and demanded a judicial probe into the > incident and condign punishment to the guilty. >   > Articulating serious concern over the incident, the Jammu Kashmir > Muslim League termed it highly condemnable.  >   >   >   > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 27 14:56:51 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 02:26:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Indian worshippers of Idols and Sikhs occupation army terrorists" Message-ID: <643506.2995.qm@web57210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> While searching for a Weblink for an earlier posting, I came across this very interesting Website http://www.theunjustmedia.com/   Alongwith other material (News Items, Reports, Videos - Hate Americans, Hate Jews, Hate etc etc etc) it has News Reports on "Kashmir".   Whether "UnJustMedia" credits it or not, almost invariably the News Reports on "Kashmir" are sourced from Kashmir Media Service (KMS).   The Headline (or in the body of the report) wherever there is mention of the India Army, it describes the Indian Army as:   "INDIAN WORSHIPPERS OF IDOLS AND SIKHS OCCUPATION ARMY TERRORISTS"   The Hurriyatis should inform "UnJustMedia" that it is being foolish and that the "ongoing freedom struggle" in "Kashmir" is NOT COMMUNAL.   I should mention that the particular 'description' of the Indian Army is not visible on the Kashmir Media Service website. At least I did not see it there.   Kshmendra     From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sun Jul 27 16:48:13 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 07:18:13 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] IIM RESERVATION: Kozhikode Shows The Way In-Reply-To: <5999.72633.qm@web8708.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <5999.72633.qm@web8708.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <488C5975.8030509@gmail.com> Dear Ranjith, > 1) I also second the question of language. but not in the vein of > prabhakar. The language of counter culture will always be offensive to > the oppressors. Which culture is being countered on this list, and by whom? Who are the oppressors on this list? Who are they oppressing, and how? What is the nature of the "counterculture"? Who are its bearers on this list? What is their claim to this status? > 2) the silent revolution happening in Indian society s testimony to it. > look beyond the caste-blinded satvik 'selves" ... any one can see it/ "Governmentality" is a technical term. Once again, how does it apply to Ambedkarite reservation policy? What is the rationale for this claim? What is the nature of the "silent revolution"? What is the "satvik" self? Which members on this list have that type of self, and what are your reasons for believing this? Who is caste-blinded here, and what is the basis of that conclusion? What is the nature of your own self, and what are your reasons for believing this to be the case? Best, Tapas > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Tapas Ray > > 1. I second Prabhakar's comment on the language of these posts. > > 2. I think the list would benefit from an explanation of the notion > that Ambedkarite reservation policy uses "governmentality" to counter > upper-caste monopoly (incomplete as it has been) in education, jobs, > etc. > > Tapas > > > 2008/7/26 Ranjith Thankappan > > > Perhaps u r talkng abt political reservation. That too was contextual. > > How could the venom of brahminsm (not brahmins) be completely washed > away within a decade? if we cant cure it even after this many years, it > d be foolish to think of curing it within 10 years. one needs to > annihilate it, as rightly put forth by Ambedkar. > > The caste/cultural capital of "upper" castes have made social > reservation for them. It still continues. Ambedkarite reservation policy > uses govermentality to counter it and therby transform various cultural > spheres into a democratic and inclusive one. And it was along with > Ambedkar that Dalits of this country declared; "We wont die as Hindu". > It s history. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Prabhakar Singh > > > Ambedkar had made a very cautious provision for reservation only for > initial 10 years for only very limited section of the society.But now it > is perpetual for the divisive vote-bank politics and about to touch 100% > as per increasing demands from different sections of the society.We > should learn from what Nelson Mandela has done in South Africa to bind > and integrate different sections of the society there. > > It will better if we can have a semblance of respect for one-another > and refrain from using insulting and derogatory words in this forum > whatsoever may be the difference in opinion.It is the difference in > opinion which keeps this forum alive by generating useful discussions > enlightening us in the process.Moderator of the forum may kindly look > into this aspect and stop such abusive e-mails from circulation and > maintain some kind of decency,respectability and discipline. > > Prabhakar > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. Click > here. > From ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in Sun Jul 27 19:02:13 2008 From: ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in (Ranjith Thankappan) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 19:02:13 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] politics of church: yet another text book controvrsy Message-ID: <892831.81292.qm@web8707.mail.in.yahoo.com> Class Struggle At a time when debates over textbooks are spilling violently on to the streets, APOORVANAND examines the politics of textbooks — and education — in the country THE CURRENT agitation in Kerala demanding withdrawal of the class VII social science textbook has turned murderous. James Augustine, 45, a headmaster of a primary school was killed in an attack by the Indian Union Muslim League youth activists on a teachers' training program. And this was done after the Kerala government announced that it had decided to remove the controversial portion of the textbook. Would this utterly meaningless death of a teacher at their hands stop the agitators in their track? Would we allow warriors of different shades of identity politics a free run? Would the sacrifice of a life turn into an occasion for all of us to once again ponder over issues related not only to the politics of textbooks but also the principles on which textbooks in a diverse country like India should be prepared? It is very easy to see that the allegation on this particular book — that it promotes atheism — cannot be substantiated, as the story in the text in question closes with the response of the parents of Jeevan, who belong to different religious identities, that he would be free to choose his religion when he grows up. It only shows that they are very relaxed about his identity and are ready to give him the freedom to decide on his identity. Surely the agitating groups are neither sure nor relaxed about their relationship with the members of their denominations. Do they fear that texts like the one dealing with the religious identity of Jeevan can give ideas to children about their right to take decisions in the matters of marriage and identity? Even if one leaves this aside, the charge leveled by the Opposition that the book is substandard deserves a reasoned discussion. It needs to take into account the role textbooks are expected to play in a country like India, the process of textbook writing, the implication of the federal character of India for school education in general and textbook writing in particular. Do we realise that textbooks are the only resource for the crores of children who have gained entry into the school space for the first time in their communities? In other words, a textbook is like a midday meal for them. It has to be nourishing, wholesome and yet should have the ability to awaken the taste buds of the children. Textbooks bear a huge responsibility in our country, to make up for parents who are often unable to address their children's queries and concerns, and supplement classroom discussions. Their role is to help teachers create an anxiety-free classroom situation which would be inviting enough for a first generation learner to make him feel at home in the school. Ideally, an average Indian classroom should represent the rich diversity of the country. Instead, we witness the upper and middle classes segregating themselves from the resource-less population and creating their own special educational zones. Successive governments, for their part, have only helped these zones get more fortified, creating Boards which only help in legalising inequality in education. You have the elite CBSE and ICSE looking down upon the state Boards. Then the government has created Kendriya Vidyalayas (KVs), Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs), and now a scheme is waiting in the wings under which hundreds of schools would be opened all over India with private partnership, on the pattern of the JNVs. It would be surprising for many of us to know that the NCERT, which prepares textbooks for this system, caters to only 3 percent of the school going children. The modern nation state is unique because it is also a huge educational apparatus. It takes it upon itself to educate huge populations into certain national principles. Schools become very crucial in this whole scheme as there is a realisation in the ruling classes that the majority would be leaving the field of planned education after they have completed their school education. In countries like ours, while planning our curricula we also legitimise different exit points for children coming from different sections of the society. Education is, therefore, not treated as a continuous process. Since it is treated as a mere tool for socialising the child into citizenship, political groups and other formations, having their own notions of it, want it to be represented at every level because they are not sure at which stage the child would drop out of this mechanism and would therefore be deprived of their ideas. An uproar on a class VII social science textbook without uttering a word on what the class VI or class VIII book is doing, results from this myopic view of school education. We also think that textbooks are syringes filled with curative or magical potions that are to be injected into the bodies of the children. The textbook programme resembles the immunisation scheme devised by modern medicine to keep children free from diseases hovering around them. A child who passes her 12th class with 98 percent marks fails to understand why communal riots take place or why is it that majority of the children failing the examinations belong to certain caste or religious groups. Our social science textbooks fail in their main task of helping students gain an understanding of the structure of our society. Instead of asking our textbooks to perform this task we put wrong questions to them. While it is not unimportant to ask whether Gandhi or Nehru or Bhagat Singh have been included or excluded, what is more important is to know if the textbook opens up windows to the different streams which were active in the freedom struggle and enable both student and teacher to discuss their roles critically. We should be asking these questions when discussing the Kerala book controversy. We should also be asking how is it that children and their parents studying in more than 600 schools across Kerala are simply untouched by this whole controversy? They do not have anything to do with these books written originally in Malayalam, as they live in safe CBSE havens reading books written in English. IT IS legitimate for a state to develop its own curricula and textbook. But care has to be taken so that decentralisation is not reduced to a mere slogan. Does a Kerala book discussing the freedom struggle depict the same Gandhi-Nehru-Bhagat Singh iconography or could it find some other way to make it more Kerala specific? These are difficult questions that would demand a fundamental change in our approach towards different aspects of school education. Our political parties should also ask if they care for standards to be maintained in textbook writing, and if sufficient budgetary allocation is made for training in textbook writing. If textbooks are not something to be memorised and reproduced in examinations faithfully, it would mean giving our teachers opportunities to reorient themselves accordingly, which has huge implications for teacher training institutions and concerned departments. It would mean giving freedom and dignity to the textbook, giving it autonomy and at the same time extending the same dignity and autonomy to the teacher and student who are not expected to treat the class room as a space for initiation into some ideology, however progressive it is, but as an opportunity to question the given truths of the State. We know that ours is an insecure nation state, which keeps on enacting extraordinary laws to save itself from falling apart, which fears its people cannot even dream of such a space, let alone make adequate provisions for it. But should that stop us from asking these crucial questions? From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 5, Issue 30, Dated Aug 02, 2008 --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Jul 27 22:04:47 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 22:04:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Contact Details - Rahul Dholakia.. ?!? Message-ID: <6353c690807270934k6da71588qce9f81b84b948018@mail.gmail.com> Dear fellow members, I'm unable to get the contact details of director Rahul Dholakia; of the Parzania fame. It would be great if anyone could provide with his e-mail/cell number. Thanks Aditya Raj Kaul From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 02:27:00 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 16:57:00 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] San Francisco Ban Bill after Abdessemed show @ SFAI Message-ID: New law proposed in response to exhibition It would criminalise those who harm animals when making art Charmaine Picard | 24.7.08 | Issue 193 NEW YORK. A committee in San Francisco's city government has introduced a bill that would allow misdemeanour or felony criminal charges to be brought against any artist or financial backer who causes "the death, abuse or suffering of an animal" when making a work of art. San Francisco city commissioner Christine Garcia, who wrote the bill, told The Art Newspaper: "If you allow forums that find this type of work acceptable, more people will produce it and can gain fame from the suffering of animals." The bill, which is still in the process of being drafted, must go before the city legislature before it can become law. The proposal comes in response to a recent video installation by Algerian-French artist Adel Abdessemed at the San Francisco Art Institute (SFAI) showing the killing of six farm animals. The Art Institute was forced to close the show in late March after only one week when Abdessemed, curator Hou Hanru and staff members received a series of death threats from animal rights extremists (The Art Newspaper, May 2008, p3). The SFAI says that Abdessemed was documenting traditional methods of food production in Mexico and that no gratuitous violence took place to make the videos. In mid-March, the California-based animal rights group In Defense of Animals, which has testified before the city commission, sent an "action alert" email to 30,000 of its subscribers asking that members demand the immediate closure of Abdessemed's exhibition. At the time Okwui Enwezor, dean of academic affairs at SFAI, told us that the exhibition's sponsors, including the Andy Warhol Foundation and the Peter Norton Family Foundation, had sent letters in support of the show. The same exhibition attracted no protests when it was seen in Grenoble, France, earlier this year but was cancelled by curators in Glasgow in April. From savadbhai at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 02:58:33 2008 From: savadbhai at gmail.com (savad rahman) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 02:58:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Contact Details - Rahul Dholakia.. ?!? In-Reply-To: <6353c690807270934k6da71588qce9f81b84b948018@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690807270934k6da71588qce9f81b84b948018@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: dear aditya here is the contact info of rahul dholakia Rahul Dholakia Production Pvt. Ltd. A/306, Arena, Upper Lokhandwala, Andheri (W), Bombay 400 061, India Tel:. +91 22 64525879, Mobile: 9833496760 America Address 1608 Lilac Street, Corona, CA 92882, USA Tel:. 1-951-454-7505 Email: info at rahuldholakia.com casting at rahuldholakia.com crew at rahuldholakia.com production at rahuldholakia.com ad at rahuldholakia.com On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 10:04 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Dear fellow members, > > I'm unable to get the contact details of director Rahul Dholakia; of the > Parzania fame. It would be great if anyone could provide with his > e-mail/cell number. > > Thanks > Aditya Raj Kaul > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 02:27:00 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 16:57:00 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] San Francisco Ban Bill after Abdessemed show @ SFAI Message-ID: New law proposed in response to exhibition It would criminalise those who harm animals when making art Charmaine Picard | 24.7.08 | Issue 193 NEW YORK. A committee in San Francisco's city government has introduced a bill that would allow misdemeanour or felony criminal charges to be brought against any artist or financial backer who causes "the death, abuse or suffering of an animal" when making a work of art. San Francisco city commissioner Christine Garcia, who wrote the bill, told The Art Newspaper: "If you allow forums that find this type of work acceptable, more people will produce it and can gain fame from the suffering of animals." The bill, which is still in the process of being drafted, must go before the city legislature before it can become law. The proposal comes in response to a recent video installation by Algerian-French artist Adel Abdessemed at the San Francisco Art Institute (SFAI) showing the killing of six farm animals. The Art Institute was forced to close the show in late March after only one week when Abdessemed, curator Hou Hanru and staff members received a series of death threats from animal rights extremists (The Art Newspaper, May 2008, p3). The SFAI says that Abdessemed was documenting traditional methods of food production in Mexico and that no gratuitous violence took place to make the videos. In mid-March, the California-based animal rights group In Defense of Animals, which has testified before the city commission, sent an "action alert" email to 30,000 of its subscribers asking that members demand the immediate closure of Abdessemed's exhibition. At the time Okwui Enwezor, dean of academic affairs at SFAI, told us that the exhibition's sponsors, including the Andy Warhol Foundation and the Peter Norton Family Foundation, had sent letters in support of the show. The same exhibition attracted no protests when it was seen in Grenoble, France, earlier this year but was cancelled by curators in Glasgow in April. From tapasrayx at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 03:37:19 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:07:19 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, Islamic Terrorism] Message-ID: <488CF197.40201@gmail.com> Hasina, I am looking forward to reading more of your funny, insightful, and intriguing comments! Also, I am wondering if you have read my post (below) to mean that I thought people have only instrumental value for *you*. That is not what I meant. Apologies if that is how you read it. My post was poorly worded. I read your "slogan" in the context of our discussion, in which I had commented that political parties in India use certain groups for political gain, even though they hate those groups. For instance, Mayavati's party, which is supposedly fighting for the "lower" castes against "higher" caste domination, has built a Brahmin base. So, although it hates Brahmins and other "higher" castes, it recognises and utilises their instrumental value. I do not know the exact caste equations there, or details of the caste hierarchy other than the main four, partly because I grew up among people who, like me, have no caste. I thought your slogan meant you understood what I was saying about Mayavati's party (and other parties in contexts other than caste-based politics). Tapas -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Reader-list] American Imperialism, Hindu Brahmanism, I Hasina, Glad to see you have got it! Everybody has some instrumental value, even if I hate their guts. By the way, a "personal" question: what exactly is the connection between wonton and warrior princess? Tapas hasina hasan wrote: > > Tapas: i'm extremely fortunate, that's very true. thank you for the wise > words. though i couldnt have my morning cuppa and today's slogan came to > me thus. > "i dont hate curdled milk. it makes for some good dessert." > From rajeshr at csds.in Mon Jul 28 13:45:35 2008 From: rajeshr at csds.in (Rajesh Ramakrishnan) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 13:45:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=60Stranded_Between_Government_and?= =?windows-1252?q?_Opposition=3A_The_Politics_of_the_CPI=28M=29_Sin?= =?windows-1252?q?ce_1989=92?= Message-ID: Monday, 4th August, 2008 You are invited to a talk on: `Stranded Between Government and Opposition: The Politics of the CPI(M) Since 1989' By Sanjay Ruparelia at 3 PM in the Seminar Hall, CSDS, 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi – 110 054 Since 1989, the Communist Party of India-Marxist (CPI-M) has sought to define its national politics through two principal objectives: to limit the advance of Hindu nationalist forces and to halt the deepening of neo-liberal economic reform. For these reasons, the CPI(M) has provided external parliamentary support to anti-BJP coalitions in 1989, 1996 and 2004, without joining government. It has also sought to block the advance of liberal economic reform at the Centre while pursuing it in the states where it governs, particularly West Bengal. This paper investigates the origins, dynamics and consequences of these seeming contradictions. It examines three causal factors in particular: the logic of political self-reproduction in India's federal parliamentary democracy; the narrowing of economic policy options in India's federal market economy; and the conceptions of power, political responsibility and political possibility that inform the strategies and tactics of the party. Sanjay Ruparelia, Visiting Fellow at CSDS, is Assistant Professor of Political Science at the New School for Social Research. Dr. Ruparelia received his PhD in politics from the Faculty of Social and Political Sciences, University of Cambridge. His present research analyses the relationship between economic liberalisation, militant Hindu nationalism and the rise of lower-caste, communist and regional parties. He is writing a book manuscript, provisionally entitled, "Divided We Govern: Federal Coalition Politics in India", which analyses the importance of institutions, power and judgment in explaining the politics of the 'third force' since 1989. He is also co-editing a multidisciplinary volume of essays, "A Great Transformation? Understanding India's New Political Economy", which examines the preceding general themes. His previous research on federal coalition politics has been published in Comparative Politics and Economic and Political Weekly. From logos.theword at gmail.com Sat Jul 26 13:16:54 2008 From: logos.theword at gmail.com (Logos Theatre) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 13:16:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Selves, Masks, Performance - A Theatre Workshop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33bc2ee60807260046s5fc9d827odb471e3820d767d2@mail.gmail.com> Maya Gallery of Contemporary Art and Logos Theatre present 'Selves, Masks, Performance' - an introductory workshop on theatre. The focus of the workshop is two-fold - to learn the basics of performing on stage by building the essential resources of an actor such as breathing techniques, voice, physical skills, improvization, etc.; and also to learn from theatre, i.e. to work on communication and expression skills, conflict resolution, etc., by using theatre techniques. The workshop focuses on contemporary experimental and alternative theatre techniques and emphasizes imaginative use of space, body and movement. It will also be interdisciplinary in nature and will cover aspects of devising a performance through the usage of forms like poetry, music, literature, visual arts, as well as personal life experiences. It will culminate with a staged rehearsal of work-in-progress, created during the workshop. It will be facilitated by Arka Mukhopadhyay, who is the founder and aristic director of Logos Theatre. He is a director, poet, and performer who works with theatre, performance poetry, storytelling and performance art. The topics include: - Breath and voice - Physical preparation, movement and self awareness - Working with space - Emoting - Improvizations - Images and sculpts - An interdisciplinary approach to performance - using music, visual arts, poetry, etc. Venue: Maya Gallery of Contemporary Art, # 59, Nandidurga Road (Behind the Airtel office and Elements restaurant) Dates: August 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 22nd, 23rd, 25th, 26th, 27th, 28th, 29th Time: 19:00 - 21:00 Fees: 3,000/- (2,500/- for full time students with valid ID cards) Registration forms are available at the gallery. Registration deadline: August 1st. For further details, e - mail: contact at logostheatreindia.org Call: 9880966313 -- Logos Theatre In the beginning was the word No. 126, 3rd Main Road, Jayamahal Extension, Bangalore 560046 -------------------------------------------------------- If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all. Since no man has aught of what he leaves, what is't to leave betimes? Let be. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From monica at breakthrough.tv Sun Jul 27 00:17:30 2008 From: monica at breakthrough.tv (Monica Bhasin) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 14:47:30 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Tri-Continental Film Festival 2009 - Call for Entry Message-ID: ***PLEASE FORWARD WIDELY*** TRI CONTINENTAL FILM FESTIVAL, INDIA 2009 – CALL FOR ENTRIES Breakthrough announces the call for entries for the Tri Continental Film Festival, India (January) 2009. The Tri Continental began in Latin America in 2002, in Africa in 2003 and in Asia in 2004. It has become the primary platform for human rights cinema for the three continents that form part of the global South. In India, the Tri Continental began in 2005. It is organised by Breakthrough, an international human rights organization that uses education and popular culture to promote values of dignity, equality and justice. The Tri Continental will tour India and the South Asian region in January-February 2009. A jury that includes filmmakers, film critics, film scholars as well as artists judge's films selected for the festival. During the course of the year, films from the Tri Continental are also screened at universities, cultural institutions, citizens groups as well as general audiences. If you are a filmmaker who works on human rights issues and wish to submit your film to the Tri Continental Film festival 2009, please send it to us along with the entry form. Forms can be downloaded in English and Spanish at www.breakthrough.tv . The Deadline for submissions is 15 September 2008. Regards, Tri Continental Film Festival Team New Delhi -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Mon Jul 28 17:56:18 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:26:18 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=60Stranded_Between_Government_and?= =?windows-1252?q?_Opposition=3A_The_Politics_of_the_CPI=28M=29_Since_1989?= =?windows-1252?q?=92?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It would be really interesting to see how a western trained educationist, a student of political science and doctorate in on politics will see the dynamics of social changes and communism in general, CPI(M) in particular in India and its role in indian governance with the economic policies and their implementation. It would also be of interest to see and have a studied look at Indian national Congress in three phases, from 1947 to 1969 as it has had the full backing of all citizens except a few radical thinkers of "hindu nation" instead of a secular nation, INC and its workforce at the grassroot levels, Sevadal, its self less and selfish leaders in the governance, in this phase when mahatma wished that the INC should be dissolved and new outfits for political existence should be formed, In II phase, when old and young "turks" had different vision for the nation, how the party got divided and the catch phrase of garibi hatao, became vote catching buzz word, to decieve very people for whom it was sought to be succour, the imposition of mergency, survival game of leadership at any cost to the nation, the period of 1969 to 1981 is another chapter of the nation where the grassroot of the party was completely replaced with hired slogan shouters, vehicles used for generating "public" presence at the leaders speech, thus leaders are those who could bring in "crowds". The next phase is of total de-generation, as morality shrunk to new low, to save his the uncle and aunties with kickbacks, uncle Qs sheltored and supported by the leaders, the phase also so india as big brother in the neighbourhood active in un-necessary deployment and death of soldiers for lost cause in lanka, regional parties and fuedal lords gaining acceptance to play king makers role in public life and governance.PV N Rao, and degenration in morals and ethics of public life went hand in hand as not taking a decision was also a decision, as no governance was bad governance. Then came the total chaos in governance, each fuedal and regional lords seeking their pound of flesh to be in governance or lack of it. Every political party talked of farmers, dalits, trodden and down trodden, but none performed the democratic rule of governance as political compulsions of coalition ruled the governance. It would be wonderful even to ponder over the role of left parties from 1962 when the walls of Kolkatta were painted red welcoming mao, to talk of nationalinterest of Nuclear deal ,as INC today talks of power, not energy but political power to it prince in waiting ? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rajesh Ramakrishnan Date: Monday, July 28, 2008 1:46 pm Subject: [Reader-list] `Stranded Between Government and Opposition: The Politics of the CPI(M) Since 1989’ To: reader-list at sarai.net > Monday, 4th August, 2008 > You are invited to a talk on: > > `Stranded Between Government and Opposition: The Politics of the > CPI(M) Since 1989' > > By Sanjay Ruparelia > at 3 PM in the Seminar Hall, CSDS, 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi – 110 054 > > Since 1989, the Communist Party of India-Marxist (CPI-M) has > sought to > define its national politics through two principal objectives: to > limit the advance of Hindu nationalist forces and to halt the > deepening of neo-liberal economic reform. For these reasons, the > CPI(M) has provided external parliamentary support to anti-BJP > coalitions in 1989, 1996 and 2004, without joining government. It has > also sought to block the advance of liberal economic reform at the > Centre while pursuing it in the states where it governs, particularly > West Bengal. > > This paper investigates the origins, dynamics and consequences of > these seeming contradictions. It examines three causal factors in > particular: the logic of political self-reproduction in India's > federal parliamentary democracy; the narrowing of economic policy > options in India's federal market economy; and the conceptions of > power, political responsibility and political possibility that inform > the strategies and tactics of the party. > > Sanjay Ruparelia, Visiting Fellow at CSDS, is Assistant Professor of > Political Science at the New School for Social Research. Dr. > Ruparelia received his PhD in politics from the Faculty of Social and > Political Sciences, University of Cambridge. His present research > analyses the relationship between economic liberalisation, militant > Hindu nationalism and the rise of lower-caste, communist and regional > parties. He is writing a book manuscript, provisionally entitled, > "Divided We Govern: Federal Coalition Politics in India", which > analyses the importance of institutions, power and judgment in > explaining the politics of the 'third force' since 1989. He is also > co-editing a multidisciplinary volume of essays, "A Great > Transformation? Understanding India's New Political Economy", which > examines the preceding general themes. His previous research on > federal coalition politics has been published in Comparative Politics > and Economic and Political Weekly. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Mon Jul 28 19:13:54 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?=60Stranded_Between_Government_and_Opposi?= =?utf-8?q?tion=3A_The_Politics_of_the_CPI=28M=29_Since_1989=E2=80=99?= Message-ID: <144138.77529.qm@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Today it is only shameless politics of opportunism for grabbing power anyhow come what may, misusing it to the hilt to fill their insatiable big bellies and enjoy the hard earned money of taxpayers merrily with no accountability whatsoever. Prabhakar ----- Original Message ---- From: "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" To: Rajesh Ramakrishnan Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, 28 July, 2008 5:26:18 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] `Stranded Between Government and Opposition: The Politics of the CPI(M) Since 1989’ It would be really interesting to see how a western trained educationist, a student of political science and doctorate in on politics will see the dynamics of social changes and communism in general, CPI(M) in particular in India and its role in indian governance with the economic policies and their implementation.   It would also be of interest to see and have a studied look at Indian national Congress in three phases, from 1947 to 1969 as it has had the full backing of all citizens except a few radical thinkers of "hindu nation" instead of a secular nation, INC and its workforce at the grassroot levels, Sevadal, its self less and selfish leaders in the governance, in this phase when mahatma wished that the INC should be dissolved and new outfits for political  existence should be formed,   In II phase, when old and young "turks" had different vision for the nation, how the party got divided and the catch phrase of garibi hatao, became vote catching buzz word, to decieve very people for whom it was sought to be succour, the imposition of mergency, survival game of leadership at any cost to the nation, the period of 1969 to 1981 is another chapter of the nation where the grassroot of the party was completely replaced with hired slogan shouters, vehicles used for generating "public" presence at the leaders speech, thus leaders are those who could bring in "crowds".   The next phase is of total de-generation, as morality shrunk to new low, to save his the uncle and aunties with kickbacks, uncle Qs sheltored and supported by the leaders, the phase also so india as big brother in the neighbourhood active in un-necessary deployment and death of soldiers for lost cause in lanka, regional parties and fuedal lords gaining acceptance to play king makers role in public life and governance.PV N Rao, and degenration in morals and ethics of public life went hand in hand as not taking a decision was also a decision, as no governance was bad governance.   Then came the total chaos in governance, each fuedal and regional lords seeking their pound of flesh to be in governance or lack of it. Every political party talked of farmers, dalits, trodden and down trodden, but none performed the democratic rule of governance as political compulsions of coalition ruled the governance.   It would be wonderful even to ponder over the role of left parties from 1962 when the walls of Kolkatta were painted red welcoming mao, to talk of nationalinterest of Nuclear deal ,as INC today talks of power, not energy but political power to it prince in waiting ?   Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rajesh Ramakrishnan Date: Monday, July 28, 2008 1:46 pm Subject:  [Reader-list] `Stranded Between Government and Opposition: The Politics of the CPI(M) Since 1989’ To: reader-list at sarai.net > Monday, 4th August, 2008 > You are invited to a talk on: > > `Stranded Between Government and Opposition: The Politics of the > CPI(M) Since 1989' > > By Sanjay Ruparelia > at 3 PM in the Seminar Hall, CSDS, 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi – 110 054 > > Since 1989, the Communist Party of India-Marxist (CPI-M) has > sought to > define its national politics through two principal objectives: to > limit the advance of Hindu nationalist forces and to halt the > deepening of neo-liberal economic reform.  For these reasons, the > CPI(M) has provided external parliamentary support to anti-BJP > coalitions in 1989, 1996 and 2004, without joining government.  It has > also sought to block the advance of liberal economic reform at the > Centre while pursuing it in the states where it governs, particularly > West Bengal. > > This paper investigates the origins, dynamics and consequences of > these seeming contradictions.  It examines three causal factors in > particular: the logic of political self-reproduction in India's > federal parliamentary democracy; the narrowing of economic policy > options in India's federal market economy; and the conceptions of > power, political responsibility and political possibility that inform > the strategies and tactics of the party. > > Sanjay Ruparelia, Visiting Fellow at CSDS, is Assistant Professor of > Political Science at the New School for Social Research.  Dr. > Ruparelia received his PhD in politics from the Faculty of Social and > Political Sciences, University of Cambridge. His present research > analyses the relationship between economic liberalisation, militant > Hindu nationalism and the rise of lower-caste, communist and regional > parties. He is writing a book manuscript, provisionally entitled, > "Divided We Govern: Federal Coalition Politics in India", which > analyses the importance of institutions, power and judgment in > explaining the politics of the 'third force' since 1989.  He is also > co-editing a multidisciplinary volume of essays, "A Great > Transformation? Understanding India's New Political Economy", which > examines the preceding general themes.  His previous research on > federal coalition politics has been published in Comparative Politics > and Economic and Political Weekly. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Mon Jul 28 19:18:52 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:48:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?=60Stranded_Between_Government_and_Opposi?= =?utf-8?q?tion=3A_The_Politics_of_the_CPI=28M=29_Since_1989=E2=80=99?= Message-ID: <38832.25942.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Left should remain left.They should not come in the 'middle' of Government and Opposition.They deserve to be left out from the Indian political scene as they are making mockery of themselves.They are absolutely irrelevant today. Prabhakar ----- Original Message ---- From: Rajesh Ramakrishnan To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, 28 July, 2008 1:15:35 AM Subject: [Reader-list] `Stranded Between Government and Opposition: The Politics of the CPI(M) Since 1989’ Monday, 4th August, 2008 You are invited to a talk on: `Stranded Between Government and Opposition: The Politics of the CPI(M) Since 1989' By Sanjay Ruparelia at 3 PM in the Seminar Hall, CSDS, 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi – 110 054 Since 1989, the Communist Party of India-Marxist (CPI-M) has sought to define its national politics through two principal objectives: to limit the advance of Hindu nationalist forces and to halt the deepening of neo-liberal economic reform.  For these reasons, the CPI(M) has provided external parliamentary support to anti-BJP coalitions in 1989, 1996 and 2004, without joining government.  It has also sought to block the advance of liberal economic reform at the Centre while pursuing it in the states where it governs, particularly West Bengal. This paper investigates the origins, dynamics and consequences of these seeming contradictions.  It examines three causal factors in particular: the logic of political self-reproduction in India's federal parliamentary democracy; the narrowing of economic policy options in India's federal market economy; and the conceptions of power, political responsibility and political possibility that inform the strategies and tactics of the party. Sanjay Ruparelia, Visiting Fellow at CSDS, is Assistant Professor of Political Science at the New School for Social Research.  Dr. Ruparelia received his PhD in politics from the Faculty of Social and Political Sciences, University of Cambridge. His present research analyses the relationship between economic liberalisation, militant Hindu nationalism and the rise of lower-caste, communist and regional parties. He is writing a book manuscript, provisionally entitled, "Divided We Govern: Federal Coalition Politics in India", which analyses the importance of institutions, power and judgment in explaining the politics of the 'third force' since 1989.  He is also co-editing a multidisciplinary volume of essays, "A Great Transformation? Understanding India's New Political Economy", which examines the preceding general themes.  His previous research on federal coalition politics has been published in Comparative Politics and Economic and Political Weekly. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From machleetank at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 19:32:12 2008 From: machleetank at gmail.com (Jasmeen Patheja) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 16:02:12 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Josh Greene/ Serviceworks In-Reply-To: References: <89a917f70807181151k3bb27e2buf2ef56a134aa3f46@mail.gmail.com> <89a917f70807190424y6b66323ja52363574cd09a9@mail.gmail.com> <89a917f70807260935i6b26f024n77c3fce55fe34429@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello, Introducing you to Josh Greene. He is an artist here who supports other artists by working as a waiter on some nights. He accepts applications from artists every month. http://josh-greene.com/serviceworks Jasmeen -- http:blog.blanknoise.org http:blanknoiseactionheroes.blogspot.com mob: 0091 98868 40612 -- http:blog.blanknoise.org http:blanknoiseactionheroes.blogspot.com mob: 0091 98868 40612 From abasole at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 01:39:33 2008 From: abasole at gmail.com (Amit Basole) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 16:09:33 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Ghalib: Reflections on Faith, Humanity and Beyond- A New Collaborative Blogsphere project Message-ID: <8e2bace60807281309h3ea8504dp110696b7ca9e2741@mail.gmail.com> Members of the Sarai list might be interested in this new collaborative project between www.mehr-e-niimroz.org and The South Asian Weblog ( http://thesouthasianidea.wordpress.com/). Description follows. Archives will be at: http://thenoondaysun.blogspot.com/search/label/The%20Ghalib%20Project and http://thesouthasianidea.wordpress.com/category/ghalib/ Comments, suggestions, feedback welcomed. Amit "Ghalib: Reflections on Faith, Humanity and Beyond": Announcing a new collaborative project with The South Asian Idea Weblog It is difficult to get the news from poems yet men die miserably every day for lack of what is found there. - William Carlos Williams Somewhere, sometime poetry speaks to all of us. Poetry makes us think, sometimes precisely because it does not ask us to think, does not seek to convince us. Humanity, peace, coexistence, faith, are on test today in South Asia. And we turn to one of its greatest poets to learn some simple and hence first-to-be-forgotten Truths. We turn to Ghalib to learn to think. In leaning upon Ghalib, we also self-consciously reach for a source indigenous to South Asia, to its own civilizational genius, to search for a way forward. To millions across the world, the name "Ghalib" needs no introduction. Perhaps the most accomplished and certainly the most famous poet of Urdu and Persian that South Asia has produced, Asadallah Khan 'Ghalib' (1797-1869) has been recited, read, interpreted and quoted countless times in the past 150 years. Through Ghalib we want to raise questions that are relevant to us today in South Asia and to South Asians elsewhere in the world. What does it mean to practice a certain Religion in a plural society? How should we treat those who are different from Us? What is the nature of Belief? Or Unbelief? What is the nature of the Divine? Can (wo)man presume to know the workings of Nature (the Beloved)? As humans must we accept our fate? Or do we have Free Will? In many ways these are the eternal questions that face us as humans. But as we will see, Ghalib raises them (and occasionally provides answers) in a manner all his own. "Kehte haiN ke Ghalib kaa hai andaaz-e-bayaN aur." In this new project, on which we have embarked just last week, we depart from the conventional model of presenting an entire ghazal followed by its translation. Instead we present only one she'r at a time along with its literal (not poetic) translation followed by a commentary and the questions it raises. Each week we will choose one verse. A commentary will be offered here on mehr-e-niimroz and questions surrounding the she'r will be posted on The South Asian Idea Weblog Adept at expressing highly subtle and complex thoughts and emotions within the space of two lines (the she'r), Ghalib's poetry has the rare virtue of appealing directly to the heart as well as providing much food for thought. However, unlike Iqbal, unlike the Sufis (like Khusrau), unlike the Bhakti poets (like Kabir), Ghalib was not a poet with a message. His first love was words and he loved to explore their sounds and meanings. And since he was not committed to convincing people of a message, reading him is a journey whose destination is not already known. In the popular imagination Ghalib is a romantic poet, a poet of love, longing, and desire. More scholarly attention focuses on Ghalib's technical prowess, his socio-historical and literary context, his skills in creating multiple meanings out of single words and phrases and his ability to create fresh, new metaphors. We, however set out to do something different. In his Urdu divaan, Ghalib talks not only about love and longing, but also about faith and religion, about the nature of Divinity, about Being and Nothingness, about what it means to Believe. Ghalib's questioning nature comes through very clearly in his verses. Not content to accept any received truths either from the Shaikh or the Brahmin, Ghalib constantly puts everything to the test of his own reason and experience. It is this aspect of Ghalib's critical thinking that we wish to explore in our project. Join us in this journey by leaving your thoughts and by suggesting she'r for discussion. -- Amit Basole Department of Economics Thompson Hall University of Massachusetts Amherst, MA 01003 Phone: 413-665-2463 http://www.people.umass.edu/abasole/ blog: http://www.mehr-e-niimroz.org/ From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 07:08:33 2008 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:08:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Brushing up old skills to beat the waves Message-ID: <3457ce860807281838r15e266aag1ead46008b7b3c22@mail.gmail.com> Coastal areas under threat Special Correspondent Date:25/07/2008 URL: http://www.thehindu.com/2008/07/25/stories/2008072562100300.htm Thiruvananthapuram: Panic gripped the coastal areas in the district on Thursday as strong waves, whipped up by monsoon winds, continued to pound the beaches for the second day in succession, threatening to damage houses and displace families along the shoreline. At Beemapally, Revenue officials began preparations to relocate 15 families whose houses were under threat from the lashing waves. Tahsildar C.R. Krishnakumar said the families would be shifted to the Beemapally Government Upper Primary School. The village officer has been directed to keep a close watch on the Poonthura coast where residents are preparing to flee to safer places. Two buildings, a house at Anchengo and a storage shed at Kadakkavur, were reported damaged in the Chirayinkeezh taluk. The district administration is gearing up for an emergency situation. A control room began functioning at the District Collectorate here as well as at the Thiruvananthapuram, Neyyatinkara and Chirayinkeezh taluk offices. In the absence of an integrated strategy for coastal protection, hundreds of families are forced to endure a harrowing time during the monsoon when the sea swallows up large stretches of the shore, tearing down huts, cutting off roads and damaging seawalls. The beaches in the Kadhinamkulam, Arattumula, Pozhiyoor, Avaduthura, Poonthura, Valiathura, Cheriyathura and Panathura areas are the most prone to erosion. Every time the waves rush in, residents begin a clamour for the construction of sea walls. Unscientific coastal protection methods and indiscriminate sand quarrying from riverbeds and beaches have been identified as the causes for the worsening erosion. Successive governments have maintained a studied silence in the face of public pressure to evolve an alternative coastal conservation and development plan. Ironically, the construction of seawalls, which is the only protection strategy adopted by the government since 1964, is cited as one of the major reasons for the worsening erosion. Scientists point out that construction of sea walls has affected the entire hydrodynamics of the coast, causing mass migration of several species of fish to other coasts in search of natural conditions. It is also blamed for the decline in shore-based fishing activities. Scientists maintain that the best coastal protection strategy is to preserve the beach by distancing all developmental activities and creating a buffer zone for the interplay of land and sea. "Sea erosion is a temporary phenomenon along the Thiruvananthapuram coast. The lost beach is naturally restored in about a month's time. To minimise calamities, inhabitants can be relocated to interior areas during the monsoon," says M. Baba, director, Centre for Earth Science Studies (CESS). T. Peter, president of the Kerala Swathantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation proposes anticipatory relocation of families from the erosion- prone areas. Agencies such as the CESS should be entrusted with the task of mapping the coast to identify vulnerable areas, he says. Fish workers to protest against cut in kerosene quota Date:20/07/2008 URL: http://www.thehindu.com/2008/07/20/stories/2008072058450300.htm Special Correspondent ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Allege that corrupt officials indulge in black marketing To lay siege to Civil Supplies office on Tuesday ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Thiruvananthapuram: The Kerala Swathantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation, representing traditional fish workers in the State, is embarking on an agitation to protest against the government decision to cut the allocation of kerosene for outboard engines used to power boats. At a press conference here on Saturday, T. Peter, president of the federation, and Anto Elias, district secretary, alleged that a section of officials in the Civil Supplies department were trying to deny the eligible quota of kerosene for fishermen with valid permits. They said the move was part of a conspiracy hatched by corrupt officials indulging in black marketing of kerosene. The leaders of the federation said fishermen were increasingly using two outboard engines for enhanced power and range, as well to ensure safety at sea. Depleting stocks "The depleting fish stocks in the coastal waters have forced us to venture out to the deep sea. This warrants the use of bigger and more powerful boats to cover a larger distance as well as to haul big nets," Mr. Peter said. He claimed that the number of accidents at sea had come down drastically ever since fishermen started using a spare engine for emergencies, especially during the monsoon period when the sea turned rough. "The decision to use a spare engine was the result of a sustained campaign launched by the government in association with NGOs. It is ironic that the government is now slashing the quota of kerosene." The leaders said most fishermen were forced to depend on the black market to procure their requirement of kerosene. They urged the government to restore the quantity of kerosene for fishermen with valid permits. The federation has announced plans to lay siege to the Civil Supplies office here on Tuesday to highlight the demand. Brushing up old skills to beat the waves Siege postponed Date:22/07/2008 URL: http://www.thehindu.com/2008/07/22/stories/2008072255540600.htm THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: The Kerala Swatantra Matsyathozhilali Federation has put off the siege of the Civil Supplies office proposed to be organised by it tomorrow demanding the removal of the irregularities in the distribution of kerosene for fisheries purpose in the light of talks which its representatives held with the Civil Supplies Minister C. Divakaran and the Fisheries Minister S. Sarma. —Special Correspondent Brushing up old skills to beat the waves Date:27/07/2008 URL: http://www.thehindu.com/2008/07/27/stories/2008072750360200.htm Special Correspondent Thiruvananthapuram: Every year, during the monsoon when the sea turns rough, traditional fishermen in the district are forced to transport their boats to the sheltered harbours several kilometres away. While fishermen from Anchengo to Varkala shift their operations to the Kollam harbour, those from Maryanad to Pozhiyoor go to Vizhinjam. The relocation is a difficult and costly affair. At the new venue, the fishermen have to jostle for space with hundreds of others. Overcrowding on the beach often leads to tension and frequent skirmishes. The prohibitive cost of transporting heavy boats by road and the problems caused by overcrowding at the fishing harbours at Kollam and Vizhinjam have forced a large number of fishermen to resort to a new method, albeit risky, to beat the furious waves that prevent them from launching the vessels from their home turf. A blend of conventional wisdom and practicality, the ingenious method involves counting the number of waves to determine the brief lull in between the crushing breakers. After a specific number of waves, the sea becomes calm for a short period lasting just minutes before the next spell whips up huge breakers. Youngsters alien to the technique are falling back on experienced old-timers to acquire the skill needed for the correct judgement. Most fishermen have now learnt to take advantage of the lull to launch boats into the choppy sea. "It is a risky affair. The timing is crucial. Even the slightest miscalculation can lead to disaster," says Anto Elias, district secretary of the Kerala Swathantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation. Once the lull has been identified, the boat is pushed out from the beach to race ahead with the engine at full throttle. Most boats carry two outboard engines for extra power. Yet, a wrong judgement could see a breaker crashing over the hull, breaking up the boat. Repairs could be expensive. "An accident can result in heavy damage to the boat and fishing equipment. It can also lead to injuries or loss of life," says J.P. John, a seasoned fisherman from Thumba who is now busy sharing his skills with the younger generation. Today, most fishermen in the district, except those from Poonthura, launch their boats from the beaches in their locality. The presence of a seawall at Poonthura hinders fishermen in the area from venturing out to sea. "It is a race against time. The boats which put out to sea by 3 p.m. have to return early morning to catch the day's business. By 7 a.m., the procurement on the beach is over and the vendors fan out to different parts of the city. A faster return means greater profit. Even a delay of minutes can result in a drastic reduction in the price. That provides another reason for the experimental technique to retain the operational base on home turf," says T.Peter, State president of the Kerala Swathantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation. From asitredsalute at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 15:09:43 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:09:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] resolution on serial bomb blasts in bangalore and ahmedabad Message-ID: *RESOLUTION* This convention against draconian laws organised by Asha Parivar, INSAF, NCDHR, FDI, SAHR APDP (J & K Manipur forward youth front, Civil Liberties Monitoring Committee Hyderabad and Reach out Condemns the serial bomb blasts at Bangalore and Ahmedabad. In any civilised democratic society killing of innocents, women and children, whatever the demands and politics should be condemned. We condemn the barbaric acts of killing, maiming and sexual assaults in all forms of conflicts. It should be noted that the serial bomb blasts will further vitiate the already communally charged atmosphere of Gujarat. The country is yet to come over the Shock and Trauma of the Ghastly state sponsored communal carriage in Gujarat in year 2002, which is one of the blackest Spot in Post Independent India. Garhwal Bhawan New Delhi Date : 27/7/2008 From asitredsalute at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 15:14:36 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:14:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reslotion on murder of lalit mehta and other activists Message-ID: *RESOLUTION* This convention against draconian laws organised by Asha Parivar, INSAF, NCDHR, FDI, SAHR, APDP (JK) forward Youth Front, Civil Liberties Monitoring Committee Hyderabad and Reach out condemns the brutal murder of activists Lalit Mehta and Kameswar Yadav of Jharkhand and T. Babu of NAPM Karnataka. Lalit Mehta and Kameswar Yadav were murdered by Contractors for exposing the corruption and carrying out social audit of National Rural Employment Guarantee Act (NREGA). It should be noted that NREGA is the much flaunted flagship pro-rural poor programme of the U.P.A. Government which came to power campaigning against the N.D.A. Regimes handling agrarian distress and high rural unemployment which forced distress migration to urban slums. Lalit Mehta and Kameswar Yadav's murder is a clear indication of class violence prevailing in Rural India. These acts of brutal murder and other forms of bestiality perpetrated on women, dalits and other marginal and oppressed sections is a clear manifestation of a decaying but stubborn feudal order in the country side, who even after six decades of Independence refuses to give up their extra constitutional privileges including the shameless right to pilferage and embezzlement of funds meant for the rural poor with active connivance of an equally feudal and corrupt beaurocracy. It should be noted that after an ardous struggle by Daman evam bhrastachar sangharsh samiti Jharkhand, The Jharkhand Govt. took a decision to handover the case of Lalit Mehta to CBI. It is unfortunate that even a month after the order the CBI is yet to initiate the probe into Lalit Mehta's murder. We demand that the Central and Jharkhand Govt. to expedite the CBI enquiry. We also demand that the Jharkhand police stop pressurising Lalit Mehta's wife Ashrita and stop creating hurdles for CBI enquiry. Garhwal Bhawan New Delhi Date : 27/7/2008 From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 29 17:41:15 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 05:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] San Francisco Ban Bill after Abdessemed show @ SFAI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <874336.69656.qm@web57212.mail.re3.yahoo.com>   Kill the animals to eat them. That is OK.   Kill them in a kindly manner. Be kind to them and then kill them. --- On Mon, 7/28/08, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: From: Naeem Mohaiemen Subject: [Reader-list] San Francisco Ban Bill after Abdessemed show @ SFAI To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 2:27 AM New law proposed in response to exhibition It would criminalise those who harm animals when making art Charmaine Picard | 24.7.08 | Issue 193 NEW YORK. A committee in San Francisco's city government has introduced a bill that would allow misdemeanour or felony criminal charges to be brought against any artist or financial backer who causes "the death, abuse or suffering of an animal" when making a work of art. San Francisco city commissioner Christine Garcia, who wrote the bill, told The Art Newspaper: "If you allow forums that find this type of work acceptable, more people will produce it and can gain fame from the suffering of animals." The bill, which is still in the process of being drafted, must go before the city legislature before it can become law. The proposal comes in response to a recent video installation by Algerian-French artist Adel Abdessemed at the San Francisco Art Institute (SFAI) showing the killing of six farm animals. The Art Institute was forced to close the show in late March after only one week when Abdessemed, curator Hou Hanru and staff members received a series of death threats from animal rights extremists (The Art Newspaper, May 2008, p3). The SFAI says that Abdessemed was documenting traditional methods of food production in Mexico and that no gratuitous violence took place to make the videos. In mid-March, the California-based animal rights group In Defense of Animals, which has testified before the city commission, sent an "action alert" email to 30,000 of its subscribers asking that members demand the immediate closure of Abdessemed's exhibition. At the time Okwui Enwezor, dean of academic affairs at SFAI, told us that the exhibition's sponsors, including the Andy Warhol Foundation and the Peter Norton Family Foundation, had sent letters in support of the show. The same exhibition attracted no protests when it was seen in Grenoble, France, earlier this year but was cancelled by curators in Glasgow in April. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Tue Jul 29 17:45:07 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:15:07 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] reslotion on murder of lalit mehta and other activists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Asitji, without politicising the issue, basically if we analyse the issues, what we see as citizens of India, is that every time the oldest party in its own rule or with the fuedal parties ,regional parties has ruled the nation, governance has always gone for a toss, as the oldest party lives and breathes on kickbacks. The contractors that you mention are there in all walks of life, to "implement" the pro-poor schemes and see that new schemes are made, new ways of loot are devised. None are under any illusion that part of the loot, major portion goes to Leaders in the process for the election funds, to bring in crowds for slogan shouting and to create tv awareness by their presence of how strong, popular is the person heading the oldest political party. Moreover, a single MLA , that too an independent can become CM of a state to keep out "communal" party away from governance so that a party tainted with taking money for confidence vote can join hands with the party which gave money for the vote is the bigger issue in the present form of governance. Whenever citizen is required to do his duty in society, be it serial bomb blasts or cover up for the loot for national exchequer, or the murders of whistle blowers like satyadev, Manjunath, it is deplorable role of CBI that has come into sharp focus as this premier investigative agency which has personnel of impeccable integrity has got political favourites in position to subvert judiciary. Judiciary adjudicates on evidence presented in prosecution, and CBI prefers to present evidence of the crime involving poor servants, pick-pockets and such, never that of rich and powerful political leaders or their hangers on, resulting in these powerful going scotfree, be it a Mandhir Kohli or a doctor who has enough clout to get away with defence of high profile lawyers. In serial blasts cases also, the CBI drags iys feet at the instance of political pressures and also big money involved with NGOs jumping to defend the culprits. Ecery citizen, in his area of work or residence when observes a few new individuals, it is on him to know these who are new in the area, police have to check about their visas, or their origin. Burdened with vip security for those who do not deserve to be in public life, safety to looters, police is de-moralised force who are constantly taking political orders. Irrespective of faith, if anti-social elements are found, who do not have human rights when they kill. should be killed then and there as if banana republic laws as these are from banana republics only as otherwise they know how to use their rights to subvert the society and its rule of laws with faith.? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Asit asitreds Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 3:16 pm Subject: [Reader-list] reslotion on murder of lalit mehta and other activists To: Sarai Reader List > *RESOLUTION* > > > > This convention against draconian laws organised by Asha Parivar, > INSAF,NCDHR, FDI, SAHR, APDP (JK) forward Youth Front, Civil > Liberties Monitoring > Committee Hyderabad and Reach out condemns the brutal murder of > activistsLalit Mehta and Kameswar Yadav of Jharkhand and T. Babu > of NAPM Karnataka. > > > > > > Lalit Mehta and Kameswar Yadav were murdered by Contractors for > exposing the > corruption and carrying out social audit of National Rural Employment > Guarantee Act (NREGA). > > > > It should be noted that NREGA is the much flaunted flagship pro- > rural poor > programme of the U.P.A. Government which came to power campaigning > againstthe N.D.A. Regimes handling agrarian distress and high > rural unemployment > which forced distress migration to urban slums. > > > > Lalit Mehta and Kameswar Yadav's murder is a clear indication of class > violence prevailing in Rural India. These acts of brutal murder > and other > forms of bestiality perpetrated on women, dalits and other > marginal and > oppressed sections is a clear manifestation of a decaying but stubborn > feudal order in the country side, who even after six decades of > Independencerefuses to give up their extra constitutional > privileges including the > shameless right to pilferage and embezzlement of funds meant for > the rural > poor with active connivance of an equally feudal and corrupt > beaurocracy. > > > It should be noted that after an ardous struggle by Daman evam > bhrastacharsangharsh samiti Jharkhand, The Jharkhand Govt. took a > decision to handover > the case of Lalit Mehta to CBI. > > > > It is unfortunate that even a month after the order the CBI is yet to > initiate the probe into Lalit Mehta's murder. We demand that the > Central and > Jharkhand Govt. to expedite the CBI enquiry. We also demand that the > Jharkhand police stop pressurising Lalit Mehta's wife Ashrita and stop > creating hurdles for CBI enquiry. > > > > > > Garhwal Bhawan > > New Delhi > > Date : 27/7/2008 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Tue Jul 29 20:21:43 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] reslotion on murder of lalit mehta and other activists Message-ID: <153461.28973.qm@web31502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> But judiciary is also not independent and free from corruption. Prabhakar ----- Original Message ---- From: "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" To: Asit asitreds Cc: Sarai Reader List Sent: Tuesday, 29 July, 2008 5:15:07 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reslotion on murder of lalit mehta and other activists Dear Asitji,   without politicising the issue, basically if we analyse the issues, what we see as citizens of India, is that every time the oldest party in its own rule or with the fuedal parties ,regional parties has ruled the nation, governance has always gone for a toss, as the oldest party lives and breathes on kickbacks. The contractors that you mention are there in all walks of life, to "implement" the pro-poor schemes and see that new schemes are made, new ways of loot are devised. None are under any illusion that part of the loot, major portion goes to Leaders in the process for the election funds, to bring in crowds for slogan shouting and to create tv awareness by their presence of how strong, popular is the person heading the oldest political party.   Moreover, a single MLA , that too an independent can become CM of a state to keep out "communal" party away from governance so that a party tainted with taking money for confidence vote can join hands with the party which gave money for the vote is the bigger issue in the present form of governance.   Whenever citizen is required to do his duty in society, be it serial bomb blasts or cover up for the loot for national exchequer, or the murders of whistle blowers like satyadev, Manjunath, it is deplorable role of CBI that has come into sharp focus as this premier investigative agency which has personnel of impeccable integrity has got political favourites in position to subvert judiciary. Judiciary adjudicates on evidence presented in prosecution, and CBI prefers to present evidence of the crime involving poor servants, pick-pockets and such, never that of rich and powerful political leaders or their hangers on, resulting in these powerful going scotfree, be it a Mandhir Kohli or a doctor who has enough clout to get away with defence of high profile lawyers.   In serial blasts cases also, the CBI drags iys feet at the instance of political pressures and also big money involved with NGOs jumping to defend the culprits.   Ecery citizen, in his area of work or residence when observes a few new individuals, it is on him to know these who are new in the area, police have to check about their visas, or their origin. Burdened with vip security for those who do not deserve to be in public life, safety to looters, police is de-moralised force who are constantly taking political orders. Irrespective of faith, if anti-social elements are found, who do not have human rights when they kill. should be killed then and there as if banana republic laws as these are from banana republics only as otherwise they know how to use their rights to subvert the society and its rule of laws with faith.?   Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Asit asitreds Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 3:16 pm Subject: [Reader-list] reslotion on murder of lalit mehta and other    activists To: Sarai Reader List > *RESOLUTION* > > > > This convention against draconian laws organised by Asha Parivar, > INSAF,NCDHR, FDI, SAHR, APDP (JK) forward Youth Front, Civil > Liberties Monitoring > Committee Hyderabad and Reach out condemns the brutal murder of > activistsLalit Mehta and Kameswar Yadav of Jharkhand and T. Babu > of NAPM Karnataka. > > > > > > Lalit Mehta and Kameswar Yadav were murdered by Contractors for > exposing the > corruption and carrying out social audit of National Rural Employment > Guarantee Act (NREGA). > > > > It should be noted that NREGA is the much flaunted flagship pro- > rural poor > programme of the U.P.A. Government which came to power campaigning > againstthe N.D.A. Regimes handling agrarian distress and high > rural unemployment > which forced distress migration to urban slums. > > > > Lalit Mehta and Kameswar Yadav's murder is a clear indication of class > violence prevailing in Rural India. These acts of brutal murder > and other > forms of bestiality perpetrated on women, dalits and other > marginal and > oppressed sections is a clear manifestation of a decaying but stubborn > feudal order in the country side, who even after six decades of > Independencerefuses to give up their extra constitutional > privileges including the > shameless right to pilferage and embezzlement of funds meant for > the rural > poor with active connivance of an equally feudal and corrupt > beaurocracy. > > > It should be noted that after an ardous struggle by Daman evam > bhrastacharsangharsh samiti Jharkhand, The Jharkhand Govt. took a > decision to handover > the case of Lalit Mehta to CBI. > > > > It is unfortunate that even a month after the order the CBI is yet to > initiate the probe into Lalit Mehta's murder. We demand that the > Central and > Jharkhand Govt. to expedite the CBI enquiry. We also demand that the > Jharkhand police stop pressurising Lalit Mehta's wife Ashrita and stop > creating hurdles for CBI enquiry. > > > > > > Garhwal Bhawan > > New Delhi > > Date : 27/7/2008 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Tue Jul 29 20:23:24 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] San Francisco Ban Bill after Abdessemed show @ SFAI Message-ID: <772604.10287.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Is it some kind of mercy killing? Prabhakar ----- Original Message ---- From: Kshmendra Kaul To: reader-list at sarai.net; Naeem Mohaiemen Sent: Tuesday, 29 July, 2008 5:11:15 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] San Francisco Ban Bill after Abdessemed show @ SFAI   Kill the animals to eat them. That is OK.   Kill them in a kindly manner. Be kind to them and then kill them. --- On Mon, 7/28/08, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: From: Naeem Mohaiemen Subject: [Reader-list] San Francisco Ban Bill after Abdessemed show @ SFAI To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 2:27 AM New law proposed in response to exhibition It would criminalise those who harm animals when making art Charmaine Picard | 24.7.08 | Issue 193 NEW YORK. A committee in San Francisco's city government has introduced a bill that would allow misdemeanour or felony criminal charges to be brought against any artist or financial backer who causes "the death, abuse or suffering of an animal" when making a work of art. San Francisco city commissioner Christine Garcia, who wrote the bill, told The Art Newspaper: "If you allow forums that find this type of work acceptable, more people will produce it and can gain fame from the suffering of animals." The bill, which is still in the process of being drafted, must go before the city legislature before it can become law. The proposal comes in response to a recent video installation by Algerian-French artist Adel Abdessemed at the San Francisco Art Institute (SFAI) showing the killing of six farm animals. The Art Institute was forced to close the show in late March after only one week when Abdessemed, curator Hou Hanru and staff members received a series of death threats from animal rights extremists (The Art Newspaper, May 2008, p3). The SFAI says that Abdessemed was documenting traditional methods of food production in Mexico and that no gratuitous violence took place to make the videos. In mid-March, the California-based animal rights group In Defense of Animals, which has testified before the city commission, sent an "action alert" email to 30,000 of its subscribers asking that members demand the immediate closure of Abdessemed's exhibition. At the time Okwui Enwezor, dean of academic affairs at SFAI, told us that the exhibition's sponsors, including the Andy Warhol Foundation and the Peter Norton Family Foundation, had sent letters in support of the show. The same exhibition attracted no protests when it was seen in Grenoble, France, earlier this year but was cancelled by curators in Glasgow in April. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>   _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From taraprakash at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 20:54:49 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:24:49 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] San Francisco Ban Bill after Abdessemed show @SFAI References: <772604.10287.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <017d01c8f18f$4ea877a0$6d64a8c0@taraprakash> It is more of a mercy filling (that of the belly) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Prabhakar Singh" To: ; ; "Naeem Mohaiemen" Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] San Francisco Ban Bill after Abdessemed show @SFAI > Is it some kind of mercy killing? > Prabhakar > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Kshmendra Kaul > To: reader-list at sarai.net; Naeem Mohaiemen > Sent: Tuesday, 29 July, 2008 5:11:15 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] San Francisco Ban Bill after Abdessemed show @ > SFAI > > > Kill the animals to eat them. That is OK. > > Kill them in a kindly manner. Be kind to them and then kill them. > > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > > From: Naeem Mohaiemen > Subject: [Reader-list] San Francisco Ban Bill after Abdessemed show @ SFAI > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 2:27 AM > > New law proposed in response to exhibition > It would criminalise those who harm animals when making art > Charmaine Picard | 24.7.08 | Issue 193 > > NEW YORK. A committee in San Francisco's city government has > introduced a bill that would allow misdemeanour or felony criminal > charges to be brought against any artist or financial backer who > causes "the death, abuse or suffering of an animal" when making a > work > of art. > > San Francisco city commissioner Christine Garcia, who wrote the bill, > told The Art Newspaper: "If you allow forums that find this type of > work acceptable, more people will produce it and can gain fame from > the suffering of animals." The bill, which is still in the process of > being drafted, must go before the city legislature before it can > become law. > > The proposal comes in response to a recent video installation by > Algerian-French artist Adel Abdessemed at the San Francisco Art > Institute (SFAI) showing the killing of six farm animals. The Art > Institute was forced to close the show in late March after only one > week when Abdessemed, curator Hou Hanru and staff members received a > series of death threats from animal rights extremists (The Art > Newspaper, May 2008, p3). The SFAI says that Abdessemed was > documenting traditional methods of food production in Mexico and that > no gratuitous violence took place to make the videos. > > In mid-March, the California-based animal rights group In Defense of > Animals, which has testified before the city commission, sent an > "action alert" email to 30,000 of its subscribers asking that members > demand the immediate closure of Abdessemed's exhibition. > > At the time Okwui Enwezor, dean of academic affairs at SFAI, told us > that the exhibition's sponsors, including the Andy Warhol Foundation > and the Peter Norton Family Foundation, had sent letters in support of > the show. The same exhibition attracted no protests when it was seen > in Grenoble, France, earlier this year but was cancelled by curators > in Glasgow in April. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. > Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From turbulence at turbulence.org Tue Jul 29 05:37:19 2008 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:07:19 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Turbulence Commission: "Lumens" by Matthew Belanger, Sean Riley and Ven Voisey Message-ID: <00a401c8f10f$14a4d790$3dee86b0$@org> Turbulence Commission: "Lumens" by Matthew Belanger, Sean Riley and Ven Voisey July 10 - October 31, 2008 Venues: GREYLOCK ARTS, 93 Summer Street, Adams, Massachusetts; MCLA GALLERY51 ANNEX, 65 Main Street, North Adams, Massachusetts; and TURBULENCE, http://turbulence.org/works/newadams/lumens/ "Lumens" is an installation of lamps networked across three spaces: Greylock Arts (Adams, MA), MCLA Gallery51 (North Adams, MA), and Turbulence.org. Scores of personal lamps that usually inhabit and illuminate the interiors of homes and shops have been borrowed from the residents of Adams and North Adams to fill the two gallery spaces. Their images and stories are represented on Turbulence.org, which also serves to connect the two locations telematically. Clusters of lamps have been outfitted with proximity sensors and arduino microcontrollers. Lamps light up in response to a visitor's presence and simultaneously illuminate lamps in the counterpart spaces. Thus, an individual in Adams can communicate his/her presence to an individual in North Adams, and vice versa. Additionally, as visitors investigate the history of a particular lamp online, the lamp will light in the physical gallery space. "Lumens" re-connects North Adams and Adams -- originally a single community -- through an exploration of location, influence, history, and the present. "Lumens" is a project of "Networked Realities: (Re)Connecting the Adamses," a collaboration between Greylock Arts, MCLA Gallery51, and Turbulence.org. It was made possible through New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc. with funding from the Andy Warhol Foundation for the Visual Arts, the LEF Foundation, and the Massachusetts Cultural Council. BIOGRAPHIES MATTHEW BELANGER is a new media artist, programmer, and consultant. He is also the co-director and founder of Greylock Arts, a non-commercial arts space dedicated to non-traditional and electronic arts, located in the Northern Berkshires. His work includes documentary video, large-scale digital photography, interactive online applications and software development. His complete portfolio can be seen at matthewbelanger.com. SEAN RILEY is an artist currently living and working in North Adams, MA. He holds his Masters of Fine Arts degree in Painting from the University of Pennsylvania and has received several grants, most notably a Joan Mitchell Foundation MFA Grant in 2004, given to only 10 artists from across the country graduating from an MFA program. He has exhibited at the CUE Foundation in New York City, has gallery representation in Philadelphia, and exhibits frequently in North Adams. http://polaresolare.net/ V. V. (VEN VOISEY) is a sound artist and sculptor from Oakland, California, currently living in North Adams, MA. More can be found about his works, which include sound, installation, sculpture and actions at his website, www.v---v.net. For more Turbulence Commissions, please visit http://turbulence.org Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Tue Jul 29 13:39:09 2008 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (netEX) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:09:09 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_netEX=3A_calls_a?= =?iso-8859-1?q?nd_deadlines_-_August_2008?= Message-ID: <20080729100909.F9CB5699.3E701902@192.168.0.2> netEX: calls & deadlines -->August 2008 ------------------------------------- [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne newsletter contents calls & deadlines 04 Calls: 2008 deadlines internal 14 Calls: August deadlines external 11 Calls: ongoing external/internal ------------------------------------- Calls & deadlines ---> ------------------------------------------------ 2008 deadlines: internal ------------------------------------------------ extended deadline 1 September 2008 !!! CologneOFF IV - 4th Cologne Online Film Festival http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=238 1 September 2008 VideoChannel - video project environments call on the subject "MOTHER" http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=292 31 October 2008 JavaMuseum - Forum for Internet Technology in Contemporary Art call: Netart Features 2009 http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=329 30 November 2008 SoundLAB VI - soundart for soundPOOL - sound compositions - a challenge for imagination http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=242 ------------------------------------------------ August 2008 deadlines: external ------------------------------------------------ 31 August Sounds for Consemble http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=365 31 August Emergeandsee Film Festival Berlin/G http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=360 31 August Videonale 12 Bonn/Germany http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=322 31 August Pipilotti Remixed! at FACT Liverpool/UK http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=346 30 August Birth Videos - media installation Chattanooga/USA http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=359 29 August The Freedom of Choice International Video and Film Peace Festival (FOC FEST) (Portugal) http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=312 25 August ASPECT seeks media art submissions for publication on DVD -Boston/USA http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=338 20 August Shadows Documentary Film Festival Amsterdam/NL http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=326 18 August PACT Zollverein Residency Essen/Germany http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=332 15 August Residency for web art production Montreal/Canada http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=323 15 August Betting on Shorts - Festival London/UK http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=286 10 August Digital’08! Imagination on Behalf of Our Planet - New York,NY (USA) http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=357 1 August Int. Shortfilm Festival Leuven/Belgium http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=313 1 August Garden of Delight/9th Yeosu International Art Festival http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=337 ----------------------------------------------- Ongoing calls: external/internal ----------------------------------------------- -->Videos for Bivouac Projects Sumter/USA -->OUTCASTING - web based screenings -->Projects for FILE LABO Sao Paulo/Brazil -->Films and video screenings Sioux City (USA) -->Laisle screenings Rio de Janeiro/Brazil -->Videos for Helsinki based video gallery - 00130 Gallery -->Web based works for 00130 Gallery Helsinki/Finland -->Project: Repetition as a Model for Progression by Marianne Holm Hansen -->Raw Video New York/NY (USA) -->US webjournal Atomic Unicorn seeks netart and video art for coming editions -->TAGallery and more deadlines on http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?page_id=4 ----------------------------------------------- NetEX - networked experience http://netex.nmartproject.net # calls in the external section--> http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?cat=3 # calls in the internal section--> http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?cat=1 ----------------------------------------------- # This newsletter is also released on http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?cat=9 # NetEx - networked experiences is a free information service powered by [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne www.nmartproject.net - the experimental platform for art and new media from Cologne/Germany # info & contact: info (at) nmartproject.net _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From anansi1 at earthlink.net Wed Jul 30 00:44:21 2008 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul Miller) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:14:21 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Moveon.org and Dj Spooky - Obama Campaign Message-ID: Hey people - Amazing news: We smashed our goal and have given away over half a million Obama bumper stickers! Since folks are so enthusiastic about showing their support for Obama, we're going to open this up to everybody. That's right: We'll give a free bumper sticker to every American who wants one. Can you take a moment to forward this email to your friends, family, and colleagues and let them know that they can order a FREE Obama bumper sticker? (If you haven't ordered yours yet, you can do so at the link below, too.) http://pol.moveon.org/obamastickers/?rc=spooky If hundreds of thousands of us order these stickers and place them somewhere visible, we'll show voters in every town how excited we all are about Barack Obama. These stickers are great even if you don't have a car. You can put them on your bike, laptop, ice chest—really, anywhere. Forward this email to your friends, family, and colleagues so they can order theirs—or click below to order one for yourself if you haven't already. http://pol.moveon.org/obamastickers/?rc=spooky Thanks again for all you do. –Paul aka Dj Spooky, Nita, Peter, Daniel, Karin and the rest of the MoveOn team From asitredsalute at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 13:08:05 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 13:08:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] invitation for daylong interaction on adivasi struggle against vedanta Message-ID: *ROUNDTABLE ON DANGERS OF MINING IN NIYAMGIRI MOUNTAIN IN ORISSA* *An Invitation* * * *2 August 2008 * *at Vishwa Yuvak Kendra, New Delhi* The reform agenda of the state since 1991 has seen a massive exploitation of natural resource by way of giving it for mega 'development' projects in India. This has led to huge land alienation, livelihood loss, depletion of rich bio-diversity. There is a constant threat on the socio-cultural and economic base of indigenous communities and those living in the periphery of this so-called incredible India. People are pushed to the brink as the state hands over country's natural preserves, affecting people dependent on it, with impunity to big corporate houses. Forced eviction, displacement, loss of socio-cultural moorings and livelihood are the norms in these cases. Niyamgiri Mountain, situated in Kalahandi and Rayagada districts, in Orissa is one such area, which is at present facing the threat of being mined. Its inhabitants are the most traditional Dongaria Kandh community whose life is dependent on this mountain. For ages, they have preserved this mountain as the Lord of law and this is why a rich primary forest can be seen there even at this age of deforestation and loss of green cover on the earth. People dependent on Niyamgiri have been up against the mining plans and have shown their anguish and determination to fight it out in more than one occasion. As the fate of Niyamgiri waits in the judicial corridors, there is a need to understand why the traditional community is refusing to accept the state sponsored development agenda and what Niyamgiri means to them. This is not a mere struggle against a Company but the struggle is to protect a civilization woven around the mountain for centuries. For understanding this phenomenon *a day-long* interactive session is organized at Vishwa Yuvak Kendra (Seminar Hall II), Circular Road, Chanakyapuri, New Delhi – 110021 *on Saturday 2 August 2008 at 10 am. * In this meet activists, academicians, lawyers and other concerned citizens will deliberate on the Indigenous peoples' struggle against state's reform* *agenda and explore ways to address the situation in their given context. We look forward to having you in this discussion. Yours sincerely Vijay Pratap Rakesh Bhatt Lokayan/ NAPM/ CSDS SADED/ CSDS From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 30 13:09:35 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 00:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] San Francisco Ban Bill after Abdessemed show @ SFAI In-Reply-To: <772604.10287.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <211582.30180.qm@web57209.mail.re3.yahoo.com>   It is the idiocy of some of the 'animal rights' platforms.   --- On Tue, 7/29/08, Prabhakar Singh wrote: From: Prabhakar Singh Subject: Re: [Reader-list] San Francisco Ban Bill after Abdessemed show @ SFAI To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, reader-list at sarai.net, "Naeem Mohaiemen" Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2008, 8:23 PM Is it some kind of mercy killing? Prabhakar ----- Original Message ---- From: Kshmendra Kaul To: reader-list at sarai.net; Naeem Mohaiemen Sent: Tuesday, 29 July, 2008 5:11:15 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] San Francisco Ban Bill after Abdessemed show @ SFAI   Kill the animals to eat them. That is OK.   Kill them in a kindly manner. Be kind to them and then kill them. --- On Mon, 7/28/08, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: From: Naeem Mohaiemen Subject: [Reader-list] San Francisco Ban Bill after Abdessemed show @ SFAI To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 2:27 AM New law proposed in response to exhibition It would criminalise those who harm animals when making art Charmaine Picard | 24.7.08 | Issue 193 NEW YORK. A committee in San Francisco's city government has introduced a bill that would allow misdemeanour or felony criminal charges to be brought against any artist or financial backer who causes "the death, abuse or suffering of an animal" when making a work of art. San Francisco city commissioner Christine Garcia, who wrote the bill, told The Art Newspaper: "If you allow forums that find this type of work acceptable, more people will produce it and can gain fame from the suffering of animals." The bill, which is still in the process of being drafted, must go before the city legislature before it can become law. The proposal comes in response to a recent video installation by Algerian-French artist Adel Abdessemed at the San Francisco Art Institute (SFAI) showing the killing of six farm animals. The Art Institute was forced to close the show in late March after only one week when Abdessemed, curator Hou Hanru and staff members received a series of death threats from animal rights extremists (The Art Newspaper, May 2008, p3). The SFAI says that Abdessemed was documenting traditional methods of food production in Mexico and that no gratuitous violence took place to make the videos. In mid-March, the California-based animal rights group In Defense of Animals, which has testified before the city commission, sent an "action alert" email to 30,000 of its subscribers asking that members demand the immediate closure of Abdessemed's exhibition. At the time Okwui Enwezor, dean of academic affairs at SFAI, told us that the exhibition's sponsors, including the Andy Warhol Foundation and the Peter Norton Family Foundation, had sent letters in support of the show. The same exhibition attracted no protests when it was seen in Grenoble, France, earlier this year but was cancelled by curators in Glasgow in April. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>   _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From nilankur at cultureunplugged.com Wed Jul 30 13:22:45 2008 From: nilankur at cultureunplugged.com (Nilankur Das) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 13:22:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] invitation for daylong interaction on adivasi struggle against vedanta In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There is this 13.07 minute movie on the lament of Niyamgiri, Orissa. People/organisations/activists who are interested can see the movie online, pls follow the link http://cultureunplugged.com/play/57 best, nilankur On 30-Jul-08, at 1:08 PM, Asit asitreds wrote: > *ROUNDTABLE ON DANGERS OF MINING IN NIYAMGIRI MOUNTAIN IN ORISSA* > > *An Invitation* > > * * > > *2 August 2008 * > > *at Vishwa Yuvak Kendra, New Delhi* > > > > The reform agenda of the state since 1991 has seen a massive > exploitation of > natural resource by way of giving it for mega 'development' projects > in > India. This has led to huge land alienation, livelihood loss, > depletion of > rich bio-diversity. There is a constant threat on the socio- > cultural and > economic base of indigenous communities and those living in the > periphery of > this so-called incredible India. People are pushed to the brink as > the state > hands over country's natural preserves, affecting people dependent > on it, > with impunity to big corporate houses. Forced eviction, > displacement, loss > of socio-cultural moorings and livelihood are the norms in these > cases. > > > > Niyamgiri Mountain, situated in Kalahandi and Rayagada districts, in > Orissa > is one such area, which is at present facing the threat of being > mined. Its > inhabitants are the most traditional Dongaria Kandh community whose > life is > dependent on this mountain. For ages, they have preserved this > mountain as > the Lord of law and this is why a rich primary forest can be seen > there even > at this age of deforestation and loss of green cover on the earth. > People > dependent on Niyamgiri have been up against the mining plans and > have shown > their anguish and determination to fight it out in more than one > occasion. > > > > As the fate of Niyamgiri waits in the judicial corridors, there is a > need to > understand why the traditional community is refusing to accept the > state > sponsored development agenda and what Niyamgiri means to them. This > is not a > mere struggle against a Company but the struggle is to protect a > civilization woven around the mountain for centuries. > > > > For understanding this phenomenon *a day-long* interactive session is > organized at Vishwa Yuvak Kendra (Seminar Hall II), Circular Road, > Chanakyapuri, New Delhi – 110021 *on Saturday 2 August 2008 at 10 > am. * > > > > In this meet activists, academicians, lawyers and other concerned > citizens > will deliberate on the Indigenous peoples' struggle against state's > reform* > *agenda and explore ways to address the situation in their given > context. > > > > We look forward to having you in this discussion. > > > > > > Yours sincerely > > > > Vijay Pratap > Rakesh Bhatt > > Lokayan/ NAPM/ CSDS > SADED/ > CSDS > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> nilankur Culture Unplugged Studios www.cultureunplugged.com India | USA | New Zealand Clover Centrum, 2nd Floor, Galaxy Society, Plot No.5, Boat Club Road, Pune 411001, Maharashtra, India, Tel: 020 - 65002520 "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act" -George Orwell From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 30 13:55:19 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 01:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The idiocy of PETA - "animal sacrifice has no place in Indian culture" Message-ID: <686083.84944.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Taking on from an earlier posting, here is an excellent example of the 'idiocy' of some "animal rights" platforms. (if the News Report is correct)   This time it is in the pronouncements of PETA (People for Ethical Treatment of Animals) objecting to a 'sacrifice' carried out by a Samajwadi Party Leader.   The comment attributed to "PETA-India chief functionary Anuradha Sawhney" is quite hilarious. Apparently according to her "animal sacrifice has no place in Indian culture". Amazing igrorance pronounced so blatantly. Which India is she talking about?   If that were not enough, (according to the report) she seems to be equating "animal sacrifice" with "cruel and exploitative" (correctly described so) "ancient practices like sati, child marriage and caste differentiation".   If a "Hindu" practice/ritual of "animal sacrifice" is to be damned, PETA seems to forget that Islam is also a part of "Indian Culture" and "animal sacrifice" is an intrinsic part of "Eid - Al- Adha" celeberated at the end of the Hajj pilgrimage. In India it is better known as Bakri Eid or Badee Eid.    Perhaps only "Sacrificing" animals at the altar of the belly (butcher for human consumption) is permissible. Or, is PETA advocating Vegetarianism?   Kshmendra   http://in.news.yahoo.com/43/20080729/818/tnl-peta-protests-animal-sacrifice-by-sa.html   PETA protests 'animal sacrifice' by Samajwadi Party leader   Indo Asian News ServiceTue, Jul 29 06:26 PM   New Delhi, July 29 (IANS) Protesting a reported case of animal sacrifice carried out by a Samajwadi Party leader, the People for Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) has written to the party's leaders that the act 'tarnishes their triumph' in the recent floor test in parliament.   PETA-India chief functionary Anuradha Sawhney in her letter to Samajwadi Party chief Mulayam Singh Yadav and its general secretary Amar Singh said: "We hope that you will consider the enormous influence you have over masses and, in the future, refrain from cruel acts that your followers might be inspired to imitate.'   She said: "Our office has been flooded with phone calls and emails from people who are horrified by reports that Samajwadi Party Madhya Pradesh unit secretary Kishore Samrite sacrificed animals on your behalf at the Kamakhya temple at Guwahati.'   "Killing an animal to celebrate your victory in parliament hardly seems to adhere to the spirit of this law," Sawhney's letter said.   The Samajwadi Party supported the Congress-led United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government in the floor test July 21-22. The Manmohan Singh government won the crucial trust vote.   "I hope that, upon reflection, you have come to regret your party member's decision to sacrifice animals, which will only tarnish your triumph in the past parliament trust vote with this blatant show of cruelty to animals," she said.   Noting that animal sacrifice has no place in Indian culture, she said that even 'sacrifices' that claim to be ancient practices like sati, child marriage and caste differentiation have been strictly banned because they are seen as "cruel and exploitative".   She said animal sacrifices have been specifically banned in Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Gujarat, Kerala, Rajasthan, Tamil Nadu and Puducherry.   Sawhney said: "Individuals should show kindness and compassion towards all living beings."   She added that PETA would be "more than happy to partner" with the party "to spread the message of compassion to the masses".     From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 30 14:28:14 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 01:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview Message-ID: <516975.74645.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> This interview has apparently been published in 'Sakaal IGA' (India and Global Affairs) magazine http://www.igamag.com/milestones.html   I received it titled with "Afghanistan had a period of very bad rule in Kashmir" quote of Karzai.    Kshmendra       Afghanistan had a period of very bad rule in Kashmir   (The interview was originally published in India and Global Affairs Magazine)   There are few leaders in the world that that have encountered threats to their life almost every single day of their tenure. Even in the recent past, the President of Afghanistan,   Hamid Karzai, has survived at least four serious assassination attempts and scores of other plots that were hatched by all those opposed to his vision of building a 'new' Afghanistan. Not surprisingly then, gaining entry to his fortified residence in Kabul is a visitor's nightmare. Not even a pencil is allowed in, as a combination of mechanical, human and canine interceptors attempt to secure the President. Journalists are treated with exceptional suspicion after an Al Qaeda suicide squad, posing as a television crew, assassinated Ahmad Shah Massoud, described today as " the national hero of Afghanistan", two days before 9/11.  The only recent change in the security infrastructure is the gradual transition from the ubiquitous US Marines in the Presidential Palace to more Afghan guards. On the streets of Kabul, the sense of a country and a city under siege is no less. Heads of missions routinely travel in bulletproof vehicles escorted by vehicles with jammers to disable IEDs, and Embassies are fortified with several sets of concrete walls to prevent suicide bombers from gaining access. That, however, did not prevent the suicide attack on the Indian embassy that killed two Indian diplomats and scores of others.  But Hamid Karzai displays none of the tension and insecurity that goes with being the President of arguably one of the most difficult and insecure states in the international system. Charismatic, charming, confident and remarkably articulate in English, Karzai comes across as a leader genuinely wanting to make a difference. Although hurt by criticism over corruption in his government and by descriptions of him as being  little more than the Mayor of Kabul, the President of Afghanistan seems still genuinely  committed  to building  an Afghanistan at peace with itself and the outside world.  With a remarkable understanding of Afghan history, 51-year old, Hamid Karzai, an ethnic Pashtun of the Popalzai clan of the Durrani tribe, has a great sense of pride in his people and his country.   Hamid Karzai, In a free-wheeling  interview with  Amitabh Mattoo, Vice Chancellor, University of Jammu, outlines his vision for Afghanistan and the Afghan people.   Excerpts from the interview:   Hamid Karzai:  Welcome Vice-Chancellor! Are there any students from Afghanistan in Jammu and Kashmir?   Amitabh Matoo: Not at the moment. But while I was growing up in Srinagar, we had many Afghan students.   Hamid Karzai: You know, Afghanistan had a period of very bad rule in Kashmir. Have you studied that?   Amitabh Matoo: Yes, Sir!   Hamid Karzai: Do the Kashmiris talk about it?   Amitabh Matoo: They talk about Afghan rule, not in the most pleasant of terms.   Hamid Karzai: They don't? Where is Zalmay Rasool? Bring him? Let us defame him. We have here my National Security Advisor, Zalmay Rasool. His great grandfather was the Afghan Governor of Kashmir. A terrible Governor. He was the last Governor of Kashmir of Afghanistan. When he went there, people came to greet him. As is the custom in this part of the world, they asked him "what can we do for you Mr. Governor or your Highness?" because he was his Highness the King's brother or cousin. So, he said, "I would like to help you by buying the wind from you", and the elders of Kashmir went out, consulted each other. They came back and said, fine. They sold him the wind and he gave them a couple of thousands or lakhs of rupees and he bought the wind. Time went by. They were reaping their crops and separating the chaff from the wheat and he came and said "the wind is mine", and then he charged them 25 percent of their annual products! Imagine.   Amitabh Matoo: I didn't know this.   Hamid Karzai: Oh, he became the richest man in Afghanistan. This man's name was Azeem. Before him, there was Governor called Attah. Attah was a very good man. Azeem was the last Governor. So, the people of Kashmir wrote a poem in Persian to Amir Dost Mohammed Khan, the king of Afghanistan. In that poem they kind of explained to him that this is not the right kind of governor:    "Attai Mohammed ma burai, Bala-i-Azeeme har ma firastane".   Attah means 'gift' - they say in the poem that you have taken away the gift of Mohammed, meaning the Prophet Mohammed - from us and sent us a 'great (Azeem)' evil in its place. When the king read this, he recalled the Governor. With that also came the end of Afghan rule in Kashmir.   Amitabh Matoo: I know, it was not a pleasant time.   Hamid Karzai: And what is your own field?   Amitabh Matoo: International Relations. I did my D.Phil from Oxford University and then I came back and taught at Jawaharlal Nehru University (JNU) for some years.   Hamid Karzai: JNU, a great place! I like that institution a lot. India will do very well, if it continues to lay emphasis on intellectual excellence.  And it must do more in the field of value education. You have embedded in the Indian culture and psyche, the depth of knowledge. And that is an immense asset in your hands in India. If you can continue to combine that, with modern science and with the humility and humbleness that Indian culture offers, that combination will make India one of the greatest countries in the world in the coming years. I am always afraid, that the new generations of India will misunderstand modernity; that they will interpret modernity as not wearing, say, a sari. The sari used here as a symbol for many things.  Your depth of cultural beauty is the most important concern for humanity. Going beyond the self, is one of the greatest assets of India. What Gandhi ji has done for you, in terms of the struggle for rights and going beyond self. Sometimes I am concerned. I hope I am wrong. What is your view? Do you think the young in India know what they are doing?   Amitabh Matoo: I think it is one of the great challenges.   Hamid Karzai: It is?   Amitabh Matoo: And what is happening is that occasionally we lose the balance, while being driven by, as you pointed out, the attractiveness of modernity. Sometimes it is so seductive that you begin to lose your moorings, your roots.   Hamid Karzai: Attractiveness of modernity or modernity misdefined?   Amitabh Matoo: I agree, modernity misdefined. But the greatness of India, as you pointed out will be that it will, hopefully, be able to strike and sustain the right balance.   Hamid Karzai: To sustain it will take an amount of effort. But let us hope that it happens!   Amitabh Matoo: How do you look back at your tenure as President, in terms of what you have been able to achieve and what you thought you could have possibly done better?     Hamid Karzai: When I look back at my past six years as the President of Afghanistan, my greatest success is that I made Afghanistan home for all Afghans. All Afghans feel comfortable here, those who were fighting with each other in the streets of this country, are now sitting side by side in the Parliament, debating each other, voting for each other, making alliances, breaking alliances. The other big achievement is in the return of Afghan boys and girls to education, I wish we had invited you yesterday, we forgot, to the commencement ceremony of 600 students from all around the country, who graduated from various faculties of Universities of Afghanistan. It was a great-great day.   I take pride also in  the improvement in health services, of  which  earlier we had almost none. I also brought back to this country  the voice of the people. They can talk now; they have the freedom to express themselves, freedom of expression, freedom of speech and a culture of debate in society.  I have exposed the government to criticism. The government is no longer the ruler. It is a body facing serious public scrutiny. Just a few minutes before you came, there was the German press with me. They grilled me on corruption, grilled me completely, and roasted me. Good! That is what I want.  I brought back to this country, the public treasure. There is financial procedure, norms, a code of conduct. There are no secret or hidden accounts. The country has gone from 180 dollars per capita to two times higher. It is nearly 355 dollars now. The legitimate GDP has doubled.  Afghanistan has found its place back in the rest of the world. Its flag is flying all around the world. Its presence is all around the world. There is no venue in which Afghanistan is not present.  Afghanistan has built more roads in the past 5-6 years then it has ever built in its life. Afghans spend more than they did even before. Of course, all of this is due to the help of the international community. And, most importantly, Afghanistan was removed from being a surrogate in this part of world to this or that country. Its identity, its independence is no longer as threatened.   Amitabh Matoo: And the failures? The problems?   Hamid Karzai: Afghanistan has lots of problems.  Poppy and the opium trade, which will not go away in spite of all my efforts for another 10-15 years.  We have to work together: our society and the international community to deal with this huge problem. Much of the poppy cultivation is driven by desperation. So, desperation has to go away for people to resort to legitimate forms of agriculture.   Afghanistan still has a very weak capacity in administration. It doesn't have the tools, the human capital to deliver the goods to its people. And, of course, what makes most sad is the number of Afghan lives that we have lost in the form of the Taliban and in the form of those fighting against the Taliban from Afghanistan. So, the lack of complete security for the Afghan people is one of my greatest sorrows and perhaps my greatest failure. Though the country on the whole has seen a lot of stability and peace, but even one home feeling unsafe is equal to the whole country feeling unsafe.   Amitabh Matoo: Regarding India, you talked about its contribution in education.  I talked to a group of Afghan students and they said that the American University may set-up a campus in Kabul. Would the Afghan Government be open to Jammu University  setting up a campus in Kabul? Or a public-private partnership in education?   Hamid Karzai: Absolutely! We want investment in education from Indian public and private players. As soon as possible, in any numbers as you like. You are already too late. Hurry up! Hurry up! This is one of the best services that you can offer the Afghan people. Also, we would encourage investment in health, in Information Technology, in infrastructure building and Agriculture.   Amitabh Matoo: In terms of the region, now that Afghanistan is a part of SAARC how do you view the process of regional integration? And what about Pakistan? You know there is concern  within India about Pakistan being  a spoiler.   Hamid Karzai: Well, this is a very important issue, for Afghanistan, for Pakistan and for India. Wisdom would not lead us in any other direction but in the direction of openness and co-operation. If we continue to have blockages for transit and transport, in exchanges of trade and commerce, we are not hurting the other countries, we are hurting ourselves. So, this is not only a policy, this is a human wish for the next generations of the countries of the world, of this region, especially the three countries. If we want to live in prosperity, we have to open up, completely separating politics from it. I would very much recommend an open road system, open exchanges of goods, of industry, of talents. Eventually this is going to happen, it will be better if it happens sooner.   Pakistan should give access to India to move to Central Asia. India should give full access to Pakistan to move to East Asia. India must recognize Pakistan's importance and Pakistan must recognize India's importance. Afghanistan will be happy to be engaged with both.   Amitabh Matoo: The issue of trade, as you said, should be divorced from politics but unfortunately given the history of India- Pakistan relations that's not always been so. We hope that this will change. I was in Pakistan just after the election and with the Awami National Party winning power in the North Western Frontier Province (NWFP), the new leadership is thinking of talking to the local Taliban and reviving the spirit of Pashtoonwali – the traditional cultural and social ethos and code of honour  of the Pashtuns - as a way of combating extremism. You have often talked about talking to sections of Taliban? Do you think that this is possible? Will it lead anywhere?   Hamid Karzai: Yes! First of all, the victory of ANP in the elections of North-West Frontier Provinces proved that given the opportunity, all people will vote for common sense and moderation.  And the people of North-Western Frontier Province proved this in a very clear voice, by voting for a moderate, life-oriented representation. So the propaganda that the Pashtoons were extremists or harboured extremists was proven wrong by the votes that the Pashtoon cast in favour of ANP. Indeed, the Pashtoons, they were victims of extremism and terrorism. As soon as they got the opportunity, they rejected extremism and terrorism. They wanted a moderate representation, giving them hope for the future.  ANP's fight against extremism is clear. They do not want to negotiate with those foreign extremists who found a place, a sanctuary, in the Pashtoon lands. They want them removed, which is good. But they want to talk to fellow Pashtoons, to their fellow men to find ways of freeing them from the grips of extremism. I would entirely support them. So, fight the extremist radicals with guns, liberate the rest.   Amitabh Matoo: Would you see this happening even in Afghanistan?   Hamid Karzai: Afghanistan has been saying this for a long time. We want to talk and bring back to our country those who are driven out from Afghanistan by fear or consigned to bad treatment by us or by the earlier Afghan Government or the coalition. But we will not allow extremism, we will continue to fight the Al-Qaida and terrorist networks or those who are associated with them. And those who are driven out because fear or ignorance must be given a chance to come back.   Amitabh Matoo: So, do you think the legacy of someone like Badshah Khan, the Frontier Gandhi, can be mainstreamed within the Pashtoons?   Hamid Karzai: Immensely, immensely, his call for non-violence is a major issue today, a major issue today. And for the Pashtoons, Badshah Khan, a man like that, with a vision like that is a source of immense inspiration! At a time like today when there is so much violence inflicted upon people,  so much suffering, destruction, people being driven away from homes, that vision of Badshah Khan is the best service to the cause of    Amitabh Matoo: I am sure you are aware of the catch-22 nature of the region's relationship with the United States. On the one hand, some feel that there is a genuine need for the presence and influence of the US and international community, especially here, to combat terrorism. And, yet, on the other, there seems to be growing anti-Americanism all over the region.   Hamid Karzai: Afghanistan is, as a nation, very-very grateful to the United States of America for liberating us. We were an occupied country, almost entirely, six years ago and the United States and the rest of the world helped us liberate ourselves. Not only that, the United States came to reconstruct our country. All the comforts, all the signs of reconstruction in Afghanistan are mostly done with the help of the United States and then of course, other countries. In Afghanistan, there is no anti-Americanism, fortunately. We were grateful, even in the past, to America, because we were together fighting the Soviet army. Afghanistan's natural tendencies have always been pro- capitalism, free enterprise, and private ownership. We see the US as a God loving and God fearing country generally. I don't know why, but I have not heard of sections of India being anti-American.    Amitabh Matoo: In India to a limited extent, but in Pakistan anti-Americanism  seems to be very intense   Hamid Karzai: Yes, Pakistan. I heard a lot about it. But, I don't know whether that's true or it is only in the media, or driven by certain interests.  But I can only speak for Afghanistan and I can speak only for the Afghan people. There is overwhelming support for the United States and for the United States presence in Afghanistan. And there is growing friendship between India and the United States. We encourage that, very much.   Amitabh Matoo: Just before I came to Kabul, the Indian media carried a story which said that the Afghan Government has stopped some Indian soap operas and there was some criticism in the media.   Hamid Karzai: We have not stopped that, there was the Clergy Council of Afghanistan, the religious ulema. They had a complaint with not only   Indian dramas but also Pakistani dramas and some other items in the Afghan media that they did not like from the religious point of view, not being in tone with the day to day life of people. The commission was set up to correct parts of it, not to remove it. The Afghan people love watching those dramas.   Amitabh Matoo: But this censorship is in no ways signaling a return to the days of the Taliban regime?   Hamid Karzai: Not at all. Not at all. Not at all. Definitely, not, Definitely, not, Definitely, not. We were always an extremely friendly society in Afghanistan, towards India. Even when I was growing up.  Among the youth here there is as much knowledge about India and Indian movies as we had when we were that age and even more.   Amitabh Matoo: Even the official photographer said that  he had learnt Hindi from the films.   Hamid Karzai: Of course, sure, they have all done that, absolutely.   Amitabh Matoo: When you were young did you see Indian movies?   Hamid Karzai: Of course, in our times the films were better. I don't know if I can say that. The new directors will get mad at us!   Amitabh Matoo: The expatriate Afghan writer Khalid Husseini's , A  Thousand Splendid Suns was recently published. It has become very popular, but it has also raised  concerns about the place and role of Afghan women. What kind of role do you see for women in Afghanistan?   Hamid Karzai: It is an evolving and improving and developing role, but I was very happy to see so many of Afghan girls graduating recently. Almost half were girls.  Almost half were girls, especially in the Medical Sciences. They are not many in Engineering, just a few of them. Most of them from Medical Sciences, a lot of them. They are growing happily. But, Afghanistan has a long way to travel, a long way to travel. We have to be realistic about it and keep trying, very-very hard. The best service for Afghan women, the best help to them to function better, is to educate them and then to educate them better. There is no shortcut, unfortunately.   Amitabh Matoo: How do you see yourself? All these years as President, are you a happier person, a most satisfied person or a more stressed person?   Hamid Karzai: In thoughts, I am very happy.  And I was very happy yesterday, in giving the Certificates and Diplomas to all the graduates, And I am happy when I have to inaugurate a road, to inaugurate a school, to see people getting education and seeing young Afghan talent emerging and to see democracy taking roots in Afghanistan, institutional structures taking roots in Afghanistan and empowerment of the judiciary, the freedom of the press. And it causes me pain, personally, I feel hurt when the press criticizes me unfairly. And of course, I have immense moments of anguish and anger when the Afghans suffer in bomb-blasts, in acts of terrorism. When our villages are bombed, our people suffer. This makes me very angry.   Amitabh Matoo: We hope that you will be elected for your next tenure. But, what would be your principle agenda for the next term?   Hamid Karzai: To continue to rebuild Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, the agenda is very broad. It is not like in other countries, it is not like in India, where you have certain things and you want to add other things. In Afghanistan, we have to move in all the directions, at the same time. Keep building schools, keep building roads, keep adding quantity and quality to it. In your part of the world, it is sometimes quantity. But in terms of the achievements, you keep adding to the quality that you have. In Afghanistan, we must work on fronts, quantity and quality.   Better roads, more roads. More schools, better schools. More hospitals, better hospitals. More teachers, better teachers. More wages, higher wages. So, strengthening of the institutions and having ability to abide by the law, improving the rule of law and working on finishing this culture of impurity, where offenders go unpunished.   Amitabh Matoo: And combating corruption.   Hamid Karzai: And combating corruption and combating extremism It is a very full house of activity.   Amitabh Matoo: Excellency, how do you de-stress yourself? I mean as a Vice-Chancellor, I feel stressed at the end of the day. but yours' is the most challenging job perhaps in the whole world.\   Hamid Karzai: I think for me now, the best stress buster is the sight of my son, when I go to him. He is fourteen months old now, just beginning to learn words. Each day go to see him in the evening, he has picked up a new word. This morning he learnt 'Kela'.   Amitabh Matoo: What is his name?   Hamid Karzai: Mirwais. Mirwais is one of the greatest Afghan personalities. He was the person who began the modern concept of loya jirga, when Afghanistan had the Iranian ruler, actually Georgian. He was from Georgia named 'Gurgan Khan' ruling in Kandhar. There began a movement of the Afghan people through consultations. What you call in your country the 'Panchayat System'.  Through the Panchayat, he began a system of consultations that eventually liberated Afghanistan. Not through military means, through civilian action and consultation. A bright man! Of course, his sons created then an empire towards the west, towards Iran, right up to Isfahan and that was a short lived one.   Amitabh Matoo: Thank you very much, Excellency!   Hamid Karzai: Welcome, Vice-Chancellor, welcome.   (The interview was originally published in India and Global Affairs Magazine) From kacouncil at kashmiri.com Wed Jul 30 08:49:35 2008 From: kacouncil at kashmiri.com (kacouncil at kashmiri.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 23:19:35 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] {KAC-LIST} Final Program Kashmir Conference Washington, D.C. Message-ID: <547e52614fb522089bfa3c5ffcb998b9@kashmiri.com> Ninth International Kashmir Peace Conference Capitol Hill, Washington, D.C. Thursday, July 31, 2008 Rayburn House Office Building, B 338 (Nearest Metro: Capitol South on Orange/Blue Line) 8.30 a.m. Registration 9.00 a.m. Inauguration Chair: Dr. Ghulam Nabi Fai Executive Director Kashmiri American Council/Kashmir Center Congressional hosts: Congressional hosts 09.30 a.m. Session # 1 India-Pakistan Peace Process: Various Perspectives Chair: Ms. Karen Parker, Esq. Chairperson, Association of Humanitarian Lawyers. Speakers: Ms. Karen Parker, Esq. Chairperson, Association of Humanitarian Lawyers Mr. Bharat Bhushan Noted Journalist & Writer, New Delhi Mr. Ahsan Iqbal Federal Minister of Education, Islamabad Amb. Hussain Haqqani Pakistani Ambassador to the United States Ms. Farzana Raja Member, Pakistan National Assembly Mirwaiz Umar Farooq Chairman, All Parties Hurriyet Conference 11.00 a.m. Session # 2 India-Pakistan Relations: Breaking the Deadlock over Kashmir Chair: Prof. Richard Shapiro, California Institute of Integral Studies Speakers: Dr. Rodney Jones, President, Policy Architects International Senator (Ms) Aneesa Zeb Tahirkheli Senate of Pakistan Justice Rajinder Sachar Former Chief Justice, New Delhi High Court Dr. Hameeda Bano, Department of English, University of Kashmir, Srinagar Professor Nazir A. Shawl Executive Director, Justice Foundation/Kashmir Center, London Amb. Yusuf Buch, Former Senior Advisor to the United Nations Secretary General Sardar Attique Ahmed Khan Prime Minister, Azad Kashmir 1.00 p.m. Lunch break 2.00 p.m. Session # 3 Kashmir: Dimensions in Human Rights & Justice Chair: Mr. Jatender Bakhshi, President, J&K Forum for Peace & Reconciliation Speakers: Prof. Angana Chatterji, Scholar-activist Maj. General ? Jamshaid Ayaz Khan, President, Institute of Regional studies, Islamabad Mr. Zahid G. Mohammad Columnist & Author Ms. Victoria Schofield, Author & Writer, London Dr. Taqdees Geelani, President HOPE & AJK University Mr. Ved Bhasin, Editor-in-Chief, Kashmir Times, Jammu Mr. Farooq Ahmed Tahir, Deputy Speaker, Azad Kashmir Assembly Dr. Waleed Rasool Center for Peace & Conflict Resolution, Muzzafarabad Barrister Majeed Tramboo, Executive Director, ICHR/Kashmir Center, Brussels 4.30 p.m. Concluding remarks: Dr. Farhan Chak, Durham University, England ************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************ Friday, August 1, 2008 (Please note that the conference on Friday will take place at a different location) 1111 Sixteenth Street, N.W. Suite 700, Washington, D.C. 20036 Inter-section of 16th Street & L Street, N.W. (Nearest Metro: Farragut West on Orange/Blue Lines and Farragut North on Red Line) 09.00 a.m. Session # 4 Resolving Kashmir Dispute: Learning From Various Models Chair: Barrister Majeed Tramboo, Executive Director, Kashmir Center, Brussels Speakers: Mr. Wajahat Qazi, Author & Free Lance writer Pandit Jatinder Bakhshi, President, J&K Forum for Peace & Reconciliation Mr. Zahid G. Mohammad, Columnist, Writer, Srinagar Ms. Karen Parker, Esq., Chairperson, Association of Humanitarian Lawyers, San Francisco Dr. Taqdees Geelani, Department of English, Azad Kashmir University Dr. Waleed Rasool, Department of Conflict Resolution, University of Azad Kashmir 10.30 a.m. Session # 5 CBM?s Between India & Pakistan: Impact on Kashmir Chair: Prof. Nazir Shawl, Executive Director, Justice Foundation, London Speakers: Professor Bishnu Poudel President Emeritus, National Advisory Council for South Asian Affairs Mr. Altaf Qadri Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front Ms. Victoria Schofield Author and writer, London Mr. Zahoor Wani Attorney-at-law Mr. M. Ismail Khan Expert on Media, Public Policy and Development, Skardu, Northern Areas Dr. Hameeda Bano, Department of English, Kashmir University, Srinagar Mr. Ahsan Iqbal Federal Minister of Education, Islamabad Dr. Ghulam N. Mir President, World Kashmir Freedom Movement, Ohio 12.00 p.m. Lunch Break 01.30 p.m. Session # 6 Kashmir: A Way Forward Chair: Mr. Ved Bhasin, Editor-in-Chief, Kashmir Times Speakers: Prof. Richard Shapiro California Institute of Integral Studies, San Francisco, California Senator Muhammad Said Senate of Pakistan Senator Liaquat Ali Bangulzai Senate of Pakistan Ms. Farzana Raja Member, Pakistan National Assembly Mr. Bharat Bhushan, Journalist and Writer Amb. Yusuf Buch Former Senior Advisor to the UN Secretary General Senator Aneesa Zeb Tahirkheli, Senate of Pakistan Mr. Farooq Ahmed Tahir Deputy Speaker, Azad Kashmir Assembly Mr. Raja Muzaffar Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front 3.00 p.m. Session # 7 Respondents Chair: Justice Rajinder Sachar, Former Chief Justice of New Delhi Gen. Jamshaid Ayaz Khan President, Institute of Regional studies, Islamabad Mr. Muhammad Malik, Free Kashmir campaign Abdul Rashid Turabi President, Jamaat-e-Islami, Azad Kashmir Prof. Wasiullah Khan Vice Chancellor, East West University, Chicago Prof. Angana Chatterji Scholar-activist Dr. Farhan Chak Durham University, England Dr. M Khawaja Ashraf Pakistani American Congress, California Sardar Niaz Jammu Kashmir Peoples Party Sardar Ishaq Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front Dr. Nisar Choudhary Pakistani American Congress Sardar Irshad Khan Jammu Kashmri Peoples Party Mr. Javaid Rathore Peoples Party of Pakistan Mr. Tahir Iqbal Jammu Kashmir Peoples Party Hafiz Mohammad sabir Brooklyn Community Center Mr. Malik Nadeem Abid Kashmir Mission 5.00 p.m. Conclusion Mr. David Wolfe, South Asia International Human Security, Emerging Markets and Risk Management Specialist Updated @ July 29th at 7.30 p.m. From kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 30 15:15:54 2008 From: kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk (Kashmir Affairs) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:45:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview In-Reply-To: <516975.74645.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <229003.8686.qm@web27802.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> wonderful. Thanks for sharing this. Afghan rule is one of the darkest rules in Kashmir. First being the Sikh rule. Kakar Khan, the Afghan governor was the most brutal - he is even said to have bit ear of a corpse. Jagmohan Malhotra - the governor in 1990s was likened with Kakar Khan by the Kashmiri newspapers for his brutality. Murtaza Shibli --- On Wed, 30/7/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: From: Kshmendra Kaul Subject: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview To: "sarai list" Date: Wednesday, 30 July, 2008, 9:58 AM This interview has apparently been published in 'Sakaal IGA' (India and Global Affairs) magazine http://www.igamag.com/milestones.html   I received it titled with "Afghanistan had a period of very bad rule in Kashmir" quote of Karzai.    Kshmendra       Afghanistan had a period of very bad rule in Kashmir   (The interview was originally published in India and Global Affairs Magazine)   There are few leaders in the world that that have encountered threats to their life almost every single day of their tenure. Even in the recent past, the President of Afghanistan,   Hamid Karzai, has survived at least four serious assassination attempts and scores of other plots that were hatched by all those opposed to his vision of building a 'new' Afghanistan. Not surprisingly then, gaining entry to his fortified residence in Kabul is a visitor's nightmare. Not even a pencil is allowed in, as a combination of mechanical, human and canine interceptors attempt to secure the President. Journalists are treated with exceptional suspicion after an Al Qaeda suicide squad, posing as a television crew, assassinated Ahmad Shah Massoud, described today as " the national hero of Afghanistan", two days before 9/11.  The only recent change in the security infrastructure is the gradual transition from the ubiquitous US Marines in the Presidential Palace to more Afghan guards. On the streets of Kabul, the sense of a country and a city under siege is no less. Heads of missions routinely travel in bulletproof vehicles escorted by vehicles with jammers to disable IEDs, and Embassies are fortified with several sets of concrete walls to prevent suicide bombers from gaining access. That, however, did not prevent the suicide attack on the Indian embassy that killed two Indian diplomats and scores of others.  But Hamid Karzai displays none of the tension and insecurity that goes with being the President of arguably one of the most difficult and insecure states in the international system. Charismatic, charming, confident and remarkably articulate in English, Karzai comes across as a leader genuinely wanting to make a difference. Although hurt by criticism over corruption in his government and by descriptions of him as being  little more than the Mayor of Kabul, the President of Afghanistan seems still genuinely  committed  to building  an Afghanistan at peace with itself and the outside world.  With a remarkable understanding of Afghan history, 51-year old, Hamid Karzai, an ethnic Pashtun of the Popalzai clan of the Durrani tribe, has a great sense of pride in his people and his country.   Hamid Karzai, In a free-wheeling  interview with  Amitabh Mattoo, Vice Chancellor, University of Jammu, outlines his vision for Afghanistan and the Afghan people.   Excerpts from the interview:   Hamid Karzai:  Welcome Vice-Chancellor! Are there any students from Afghanistan in Jammu and Kashmir?   Amitabh Matoo: Not at the moment. But while I was growing up in Srinagar, we had many Afghan students.   Hamid Karzai: You know, Afghanistan had a period of very bad rule in Kashmir. Have you studied that?   Amitabh Matoo: Yes, Sir!   Hamid Karzai: Do the Kashmiris talk about it?   Amitabh Matoo: They talk about Afghan rule, not in the most pleasant of terms.   Hamid Karzai: They don't? Where is Zalmay Rasool? Bring him? Let us defame him. We have here my National Security Advisor, Zalmay Rasool. His great grandfather was the Afghan Governor of Kashmir. A terrible Governor. He was the last Governor of Kashmir of Afghanistan. When he went there, people came to greet him. As is the custom in this part of the world, they asked him "what can we do for you Mr. Governor or your Highness?" because he was his Highness the King's brother or cousin. So, he said, "I would like to help you by buying the wind from you", and the elders of Kashmir went out, consulted each other. They came back and said, fine. They sold him the wind and he gave them a couple of thousands or lakhs of rupees and he bought the wind. Time went by. They were reaping their crops and separating the chaff from the wheat and he came and said "the wind is mine", and then he charged them 25 percent of their annual products! Imagine.   Amitabh Matoo: I didn't know this.   Hamid Karzai: Oh, he became the richest man in Afghanistan. This man's name was Azeem. Before him, there was Governor called Attah. Attah was a very good man. Azeem was the last Governor. So, the people of Kashmir wrote a poem in Persian to Amir Dost Mohammed Khan, the king of Afghanistan. In that poem they kind of explained to him that this is not the right kind of governor:    "Attai Mohammed ma burai, Bala-i-Azeeme har ma firastane".   Attah means 'gift' - they say in the poem that you have taken away the gift of Mohammed, meaning the Prophet Mohammed - from us and sent us a 'great (Azeem)' evil in its place. When the king read this, he recalled the Governor. With that also came the end of Afghan rule in Kashmir.   Amitabh Matoo: I know, it was not a pleasant time.   Hamid Karzai: And what is your own field?   Amitabh Matoo: International Relations. I did my D.Phil from Oxford University and then I came back and taught at Jawaharlal Nehru University (JNU) for some years.   Hamid Karzai: JNU, a great place! I like that institution a lot. India will do very well, if it continues to lay emphasis on intellectual excellence.  And it must do more in the field of value education. You have embedded in the Indian culture and psyche, the depth of knowledge. And that is an immense asset in your hands in India. If you can continue to combine that, with modern science and with the humility and humbleness that Indian culture offers, that combination will make India one of the greatest countries in the world in the coming years. I am always afraid, that the new generations of India will misunderstand modernity; that they will interpret modernity as not wearing, say, a sari. The sari used here as a symbol for many things.  Your depth of cultural beauty is the most important concern for humanity. Going beyond the self, is one of the greatest assets of India. What Gandhi ji has done for you, in terms of the struggle for rights and going beyond self. Sometimes I am concerned. I hope I am wrong. What is your view? Do you think the young in India know what they are doing?   Amitabh Matoo: I think it is one of the great challenges.   Hamid Karzai: It is?   Amitabh Matoo: And what is happening is that occasionally we lose the balance, while being driven by, as you pointed out, the attractiveness of modernity. Sometimes it is so seductive that you begin to lose your moorings, your roots.   Hamid Karzai: Attractiveness of modernity or modernity misdefined?   Amitabh Matoo: I agree, modernity misdefined. But the greatness of India, as you pointed out will be that it will, hopefully, be able to strike and sustain the right balance.   Hamid Karzai: To sustain it will take an amount of effort. But let us hope that it happens!   Amitabh Matoo: How do you look back at your tenure as President, in terms of what you have been able to achieve and what you thought you could have possibly done better?     Hamid Karzai: When I look back at my past six years as the President of Afghanistan, my greatest success is that I made Afghanistan home for all Afghans. All Afghans feel comfortable here, those who were fighting with each other in the streets of this country, are now sitting side by side in the Parliament, debating each other, voting for each other, making alliances, breaking alliances. The other big achievement is in the return of Afghan boys and girls to education, I wish we had invited you yesterday, we forgot, to the commencement ceremony of 600 students from all around the country, who graduated from various faculties of Universities of Afghanistan. It was a great-great day.   I take pride also in  the improvement in health services, of  which  earlier we had almost none. I also brought back to this country  the voice of the people. They can talk now; they have the freedom to express themselves, freedom of expression, freedom of speech and a culture of debate in society.  I have exposed the government to criticism. The government is no longer the ruler. It is a body facing serious public scrutiny. Just a few minutes before you came, there was the German press with me. They grilled me on corruption, grilled me completely, and roasted me. Good! That is what I want.  I brought back to this country, the public treasure. There is financial procedure, norms, a code of conduct. There are no secret or hidden accounts. The country has gone from 180 dollars per capita to two times higher. It is nearly 355 dollars now. The legitimate GDP has doubled.  Afghanistan has found its place back in the rest of the world. Its flag is flying all around the world. Its presence is all around the world. There is no venue in which Afghanistan is not present.  Afghanistan has built more roads in the past 5-6 years then it has ever built in its life. Afghans spend more than they did even before. Of course, all of this is due to the help of the international community. And, most importantly, Afghanistan was removed from being a surrogate in this part of world to this or that country. Its identity, its independence is no longer as threatened.   Amitabh Matoo: And the failures? The problems?   Hamid Karzai: Afghanistan has lots of problems.  Poppy and the opium trade, which will not go away in spite of all my efforts for another 10-15 years.  We have to work together: our society and the international community to deal with this huge problem. Much of the poppy cultivation is driven by desperation. So, desperation has to go away for people to resort to legitimate forms of agriculture.   Afghanistan still has a very weak capacity in administration. It doesn't have the tools, the human capital to deliver the goods to its people. And, of course, what makes most sad is the number of Afghan lives that we have lost in the form of the Taliban and in the form of those fighting against the Taliban from Afghanistan. So, the lack of complete security for the Afghan people is one of my greatest sorrows and perhaps my greatest failure. Though the country on the whole has seen a lot of stability and peace, but even one home feeling unsafe is equal to the whole country feeling unsafe.   Amitabh Matoo: Regarding India, you talked about its contribution in education.  I talked to a group of Afghan students and they said that the American University may set-up a campus in Kabul. Would the Afghan Government be open to Jammu University  setting up a campus in Kabul? Or a public-private partnership in education?   Hamid Karzai: Absolutely! We want investment in education from Indian public and private players. As soon as possible, in any numbers as you like. You are already too late. Hurry up! Hurry up! This is one of the best services that you can offer the Afghan people. Also, we would encourage investment in health, in Information Technology, in infrastructure building and Agriculture.   Amitabh Matoo: In terms of the region, now that Afghanistan is a part of SAARC how do you view the process of regional integration? And what about Pakistan? You know there is concern  within India about Pakistan being  a spoiler.   Hamid Karzai: Well, this is a very important issue, for Afghanistan, for Pakistan and for India. Wisdom would not lead us in any other direction but in the direction of openness and co-operation. If we continue to have blockages for transit and transport, in exchanges of trade and commerce, we are not hurting the other countries, we are hurting ourselves. So, this is not only a policy, this is a human wish for the next generations of the countries of the world, of this region, especially the three countries. If we want to live in prosperity, we have to open up, completely separating politics from it. I would very much recommend an open road system, open exchanges of goods, of industry, of talents. Eventually this is going to happen, it will be better if it happens sooner.   Pakistan should give access to India to move to Central Asia. India should give full access to Pakistan to move to East Asia. India must recognize Pakistan's importance and Pakistan must recognize India's importance. Afghanistan will be happy to be engaged with both.   Amitabh Matoo: The issue of trade, as you said, should be divorced from politics but unfortunately given the history of India- Pakistan relations that's not always been so. We hope that this will change. I was in Pakistan just after the election and with the Awami National Party winning power in the North Western Frontier Province (NWFP), the new leadership is thinking of talking to the local Taliban and reviving the spirit of Pashtoonwali – the traditional cultural and social ethos and code of honour  of the Pashtuns - as a way of combating extremism. You have often talked about talking to sections of Taliban? Do you think that this is possible? Will it lead anywhere?   Hamid Karzai: Yes! First of all, the victory of ANP in the elections of North-West Frontier Provinces proved that given the opportunity, all people will vote for common sense and moderation.  And the people of North-Western Frontier Province proved this in a very clear voice, by voting for a moderate, life-oriented representation. So the propaganda that the Pashtoons were extremists or harboured extremists was proven wrong by the votes that the Pashtoon cast in favour of ANP. Indeed, the Pashtoons, they were victims of extremism and terrorism. As soon as they got the opportunity, they rejected extremism and terrorism. They wanted a moderate representation, giving them hope for the future.  ANP's fight against extremism is clear. They do not want to negotiate with those foreign extremists who found a place, a sanctuary, in the Pashtoon lands. They want them removed, which is good. But they want to talk to fellow Pashtoons, to their fellow men to find ways of freeing them from the grips of extremism. I would entirely support them. So, fight the extremist radicals with guns, liberate the rest.   Amitabh Matoo: Would you see this happening even in Afghanistan?   Hamid Karzai: Afghanistan has been saying this for a long time. We want to talk and bring back to our country those who are driven out from Afghanistan by fear or consigned to bad treatment by us or by the earlier Afghan Government or the coalition. But we will not allow extremism, we will continue to fight the Al-Qaida and terrorist networks or those who are associated with them. And those who are driven out because fear or ignorance must be given a chance to come back.   Amitabh Matoo: So, do you think the legacy of someone like Badshah Khan, the Frontier Gandhi, can be mainstreamed within the Pashtoons?   Hamid Karzai: Immensely, immensely, his call for non-violence is a major issue today, a major issue today. And for the Pashtoons, Badshah Khan, a man like that, with a vision like that is a source of immense inspiration! At a time like today when there is so much violence inflicted upon people,  so much suffering, destruction, people being driven away from homes, that vision of Badshah Khan is the best service to the cause of    Amitabh Matoo: I am sure you are aware of the catch-22 nature of the region's relationship with the United States. On the one hand, some feel that there is a genuine need for the presence and influence of the US and international community, especially here, to combat terrorism. And, yet, on the other, there seems to be growing anti-Americanism all over the region.   Hamid Karzai: Afghanistan is, as a nation, very-very grateful to the United States of America for liberating us. We were an occupied country, almost entirely, six years ago and the United States and the rest of the world helped us liberate ourselves. Not only that, the United States came to reconstruct our country. All the comforts, all the signs of reconstruction in Afghanistan are mostly done with the help of the United States and then of course, other countries. In Afghanistan, there is no anti-Americanism, fortunately. We were grateful, even in the past, to America, because we were together fighting the Soviet army. Afghanistan's natural tendencies have always been pro- capitalism, free enterprise, and private ownership. We see the US as a God loving and God fearing country generally. I don't know why, but I have not heard of sections of India being anti-American.    Amitabh Matoo: In India to a limited extent, but in Pakistan anti-Americanism  seems to be very intense   Hamid Karzai: Yes, Pakistan. I heard a lot about it. But, I don't know whether that's true or it is only in the media, or driven by certain interests.  But I can only speak for Afghanistan and I can speak only for the Afghan people. There is overwhelming support for the United States and for the United States presence in Afghanistan. And there is growing friendship between India and the United States. We encourage that, very much.   Amitabh Matoo: Just before I came to Kabul, the Indian media carried a story which said that the Afghan Government has stopped some Indian soap operas and there was some criticism in the media.   Hamid Karzai: We have not stopped that, there was the Clergy Council of Afghanistan, the religious ulema. They had a complaint with not only   Indian dramas but also Pakistani dramas and some other items in the Afghan media that they did not like from the religious point of view, not being in tone with the day to day life of people. The commission was set up to correct parts of it, not to remove it. The Afghan people love watching those dramas.   Amitabh Matoo: But this censorship is in no ways signaling a return to the days of the Taliban regime?   Hamid Karzai: Not at all. Not at all. Not at all. Definitely, not, Definitely, not, Definitely, not. We were always an extremely friendly society in Afghanistan, towards India. Even when I was growing up.  Among the youth here there is as much knowledge about India and Indian movies as we had when we were that age and even more.   Amitabh Matoo: Even the official photographer said that  he had learnt Hindi from the films.   Hamid Karzai: Of course, sure, they have all done that, absolutely.   Amitabh Matoo: When you were young did you see Indian movies?   Hamid Karzai: Of course, in our times the films were better. I don't know if I can say that. The new directors will get mad at us!   Amitabh Matoo: The expatriate Afghan writer Khalid Husseini's , A  Thousand Splendid Suns was recently published. It has become very popular, but it has also raised  concerns about the place and role of Afghan women. What kind of role do you see for women in Afghanistan?   Hamid Karzai: It is an evolving and improving and developing role, but I was very happy to see so many of Afghan girls graduating recently. Almost half were girls.  Almost half were girls, especially in the Medical Sciences. They are not many in Engineering, just a few of them. Most of them from Medical Sciences, a lot of them. They are growing happily. But, Afghanistan has a long way to travel, a long way to travel. We have to be realistic about it and keep trying, very-very hard. The best service for Afghan women, the best help to them to function better, is to educate them and then to educate them better. There is no shortcut, unfortunately.   Amitabh Matoo: How do you see yourself? All these years as President, are you a happier person, a most satisfied person or a more stressed person?   Hamid Karzai: In thoughts, I am very happy.  And I was very happy yesterday, in giving the Certificates and Diplomas to all the graduates, And I am happy when I have to inaugurate a road, to inaugurate a school, to see people getting education and seeing young Afghan talent emerging and to see democracy taking roots in Afghanistan, institutional structures taking roots in Afghanistan and empowerment of the judiciary, the freedom of the press. And it causes me pain, personally, I feel hurt when the press criticizes me unfairly. And of course, I have immense moments of anguish and anger when the Afghans suffer in bomb-blasts, in acts of terrorism. When our villages are bombed, our people suffer. This makes me very angry.   Amitabh Matoo: We hope that you will be elected for your next tenure. But, what would be your principle agenda for the next term?   Hamid Karzai: To continue to rebuild Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, the agenda is very broad. It is not like in other countries, it is not like in India, where you have certain things and you want to add other things. In Afghanistan, we have to move in all the directions, at the same time. Keep building schools, keep building roads, keep adding quantity and quality to it. In your part of the world, it is sometimes quantity. But in terms of the achievements, you keep adding to the quality that you have. In Afghanistan, we must work on fronts, quantity and quality.   Better roads, more roads. More schools, better schools. More hospitals, better hospitals. More teachers, better teachers. More wages, higher wages. So, strengthening of the institutions and having ability to abide by the law, improving the rule of law and working on finishing this culture of impurity, where offenders go unpunished.   Amitabh Matoo: And combating corruption.   Hamid Karzai: And combating corruption and combating extremism It is a very full house of activity.   Amitabh Matoo: Excellency, how do you de-stress yourself? I mean as a Vice-Chancellor, I feel stressed at the end of the day. but yours' is the most challenging job perhaps in the whole world.\   Hamid Karzai: I think for me now, the best stress buster is the sight of my son, when I go to him. He is fourteen months old now, just beginning to learn words. Each day go to see him in the evening, he has picked up a new word. This morning he learnt 'Kela'.   Amitabh Matoo: What is his name?   Hamid Karzai: Mirwais. Mirwais is one of the greatest Afghan personalities. He was the person who began the modern concept of loya jirga, when Afghanistan had the Iranian ruler, actually Georgian. He was from Georgia named 'Gurgan Khan' ruling in Kandhar. There began a movement of the Afghan people through consultations. What you call in your country the 'Panchayat System'.  Through the Panchayat, he began a system of consultations that eventually liberated Afghanistan. Not through military means, through civilian action and consultation. A bright man! Of course, his sons created then an empire towards the west, towards Iran, right up to Isfahan and that was a short lived one.   Amitabh Matoo: Thank you very much, Excellency!   Hamid Karzai: Welcome, Vice-Chancellor, welcome.   (The interview was originally published in India and Global Affairs Magazine) _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> __________________________________________________________ Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 30 16:25:11 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 03:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview In-Reply-To: <229003.8686.qm@web27802.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <376685.47380.qm@web57215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Shibli Sahib   Jab chaaha nazron mein liya, aur jab chaaha nazarandaaz kiya. Ye kaisa zulm? (At times you choose to pay heed to me and at times you choose to ignore me. Why this cruelty?   What happened to my enquiries about the dimensions of "Open Borders / Joint Control of Kashmir"?   I will not provide my list of or ratings for those who deserve to be included in the 'brutality scale', but yes, it is an interesting interview of Karzai.   Take care   Kshmendra --- On Wed, 7/30/08, Kashmir Affairs wrote: From: Kashmir Affairs Subject: Re: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Wednesday, July 30, 2008, 3:15 PM wonderful. Thanks for sharing this. Afghan rule is one of the darkest rules in Kashmir. First being the Sikh rule. Kakar Khan, the Afghan governor was the most brutal - he is even said to have bit ear of a corpse. Jagmohan Malhotra - the governor in 1990s was likened with Kakar Khan by the Kashmiri newspapers for his brutality. Murtaza Shibli --- On Wed, 30/7/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: From: Kshmendra Kaul Subject: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview To: "sarai list" Date: Wednesday, 30 July, 2008, 9:58 AM This interview has apparently been published in 'Sakaal IGA' (India and Global Affairs) magazine http://www.igamag.com/milestones.html   I received it titled with "Afghanistan had a period of very bad rule in Kashmir" quote of Karzai.    Kshmendra       Afghanistan had a period of very bad rule in Kashmir   (The interview was originally published in India and Global Affairs Magazine)   There are few leaders in the world that that have encountered threats to their life almost every single day of their tenure. Even in the recent past, the President of Afghanistan,   Hamid Karzai, has survived at least four serious assassination attempts and scores of other plots that were hatched by all those opposed to his vision of building a 'new' Afghanistan. Not surprisingly then, gaining entry to his fortified residence in Kabul is a visitor's nightmare. Not even a pencil is allowed in, as a combination of mechanical, human and canine interceptors attempt to secure the President. Journalists are treated with exceptional suspicion after an Al Qaeda suicide squad, posing as a television crew, assassinated Ahmad Shah Massoud, described today as " the national hero of Afghanistan", two days before 9/11.  The only recent change in the security infrastructure is the gradual transition from the ubiquitous US Marines in the Presidential Palace to more Afghan guards. On the streets of Kabul, the sense of a country and a city under siege is no less. Heads of missions routinely travel in bulletproof vehicles escorted by vehicles with jammers to disable IEDs, and Embassies are fortified with several sets of concrete walls to prevent suicide bombers from gaining access. That, however, did not prevent the suicide attack on the Indian embassy that killed two Indian diplomats and scores of others.  But Hamid Karzai displays none of the tension and insecurity that goes with being the President of arguably one of the most difficult and insecure states in the international system. Charismatic, charming, confident and remarkably articulate in English, Karzai comes across as a leader genuinely wanting to make a difference. Although hurt by criticism over corruption in his government and by descriptions of him as being  little more than the Mayor of Kabul, the President of Afghanistan seems still genuinely  committed  to building  an Afghanistan at peace with itself and the outside world.  With a remarkable understanding of Afghan history, 51-year old, Hamid Karzai, an ethnic Pashtun of the Popalzai clan of the Durrani tribe, has a great sense of pride in his people and his country.   Hamid Karzai, In a free-wheeling  interview with  Amitabh Mattoo, Vice Chancellor, University of Jammu, outlines his vision for Afghanistan and the Afghan people.   Excerpts from the interview:   Hamid Karzai:  Welcome Vice-Chancellor! Are there any students from Afghanistan in Jammu and Kashmir?   Amitabh Matoo: Not at the moment. But while I was growing up in Srinagar, we had many Afghan students.   Hamid Karzai: You know, Afghanistan had a period of very bad rule in Kashmir. Have you studied that?   Amitabh Matoo: Yes, Sir!   Hamid Karzai: Do the Kashmiris talk about it?   Amitabh Matoo: They talk about Afghan rule, not in the most pleasant of terms.   Hamid Karzai: They don't? Where is Zalmay Rasool? Bring him? Let us defame him. We have here my National Security Advisor, Zalmay Rasool. His great grandfather was the Afghan Governor of Kashmir. A terrible Governor. He was the last Governor of Kashmir of Afghanistan. When he went there, people came to greet him. As is the custom in this part of the world, they asked him "what can we do for you Mr. Governor or your Highness?" because he was his Highness the King's brother or cousin. So, he said, "I would like to help you by buying the wind from you", and the elders of Kashmir went out, consulted each other. They came back and said, fine. They sold him the wind and he gave them a couple of thousands or lakhs of rupees and he bought the wind. Time went by. They were reaping their crops and separating the chaff from the wheat and he came and said "the wind is mine", and then he charged them 25 percent of their annual products! Imagine.   Amitabh Matoo: I didn't know this.   Hamid Karzai: Oh, he became the richest man in Afghanistan. This man's name was Azeem. Before him, there was Governor called Attah. Attah was a very good man. Azeem was the last Governor. So, the people of Kashmir wrote a poem in Persian to Amir Dost Mohammed Khan, the king of Afghanistan. In that poem they kind of explained to him that this is not the right kind of governor:    "Attai Mohammed ma burai, Bala-i-Azeeme har ma firastane".   Attah means 'gift' - they say in the poem that you have taken away the gift of Mohammed, meaning the Prophet Mohammed - from us and sent us a 'great (Azeem)' evil in its place. When the king read this, he recalled the Governor. With that also came the end of Afghan rule in Kashmir.   Amitabh Matoo: I know, it was not a pleasant time.   Hamid Karzai: And what is your own field?   Amitabh Matoo: International Relations. I did my D.Phil from Oxford University and then I came back and taught at Jawaharlal Nehru University (JNU) for some years.   Hamid Karzai: JNU, a great place! I like that institution a lot. India will do very well, if it continues to lay emphasis on intellectual excellence.  And it must do more in the field of value education. You have embedded in the Indian culture and psyche, the depth of knowledge. And that is an immense asset in your hands in India. If you can continue to combine that, with modern science and with the humility and humbleness that Indian culture offers, that combination will make India one of the greatest countries in the world in the coming years. I am always afraid, that the new generations of India will misunderstand modernity; that they will interpret modernity as not wearing, say, a sari. The sari used here as a symbol for many things.  Your depth of cultural beauty is the most important concern for humanity. Going beyond the self, is one of the greatest assets of India. What Gandhi ji has done for you, in terms of the struggle for rights and going beyond self. Sometimes I am concerned. I hope I am wrong. What is your view? Do you think the young in India know what they are doing?   Amitabh Matoo: I think it is one of the great challenges.   Hamid Karzai: It is?   Amitabh Matoo: And what is happening is that occasionally we lose the balance, while being driven by, as you pointed out, the attractiveness of modernity. Sometimes it is so seductive that you begin to lose your moorings, your roots.   Hamid Karzai: Attractiveness of modernity or modernity misdefined?   Amitabh Matoo: I agree, modernity misdefined. But the greatness of India, as you pointed out will be that it will, hopefully, be able to strike and sustain the right balance.   Hamid Karzai: To sustain it will take an amount of effort. But let us hope that it happens!   Amitabh Matoo: How do you look back at your tenure as President, in terms of what you have been able to achieve and what you thought you could have possibly done better?     Hamid Karzai: When I look back at my past six years as the President of Afghanistan, my greatest success is that I made Afghanistan home for all Afghans. All Afghans feel comfortable here, those who were fighting with each other in the streets of this country, are now sitting side by side in the Parliament, debating each other, voting for each other, making alliances, breaking alliances. The other big achievement is in the return of Afghan boys and girls to education, I wish we had invited you yesterday, we forgot, to the commencement ceremony of 600 students from all around the country, who graduated from various faculties of Universities of Afghanistan. It was a great-great day.   I take pride also in  the improvement in health services, of  which  earlier we had almost none. I also brought back to this country  the voice of the people. They can talk now; they have the freedom to express themselves, freedom of expression, freedom of speech and a culture of debate in society.  I have exposed the government to criticism. The government is no longer the ruler. It is a body facing serious public scrutiny. Just a few minutes before you came, there was the German press with me. They grilled me on corruption, grilled me completely, and roasted me. Good! That is what I want.  I brought back to this country, the public treasure. There is financial procedure, norms, a code of conduct. There are no secret or hidden accounts. The country has gone from 180 dollars per capita to two times higher. It is nearly 355 dollars now. The legitimate GDP has doubled.  Afghanistan has found its place back in the rest of the world. Its flag is flying all around the world. Its presence is all around the world. There is no venue in which Afghanistan is not present.  Afghanistan has built more roads in the past 5-6 years then it has ever built in its life. Afghans spend more than they did even before. Of course, all of this is due to the help of the international community. And, most importantly, Afghanistan was removed from being a surrogate in this part of world to this or that country. Its identity, its independence is no longer as threatened.   Amitabh Matoo: And the failures? The problems?   Hamid Karzai: Afghanistan has lots of problems.  Poppy and the opium trade, which will not go away in spite of all my efforts for another 10-15 years.  We have to work together: our society and the international community to deal with this huge problem. Much of the poppy cultivation is driven by desperation. So, desperation has to go away for people to resort to legitimate forms of agriculture.   Afghanistan still has a very weak capacity in administration. It doesn't have the tools, the human capital to deliver the goods to its people. And, of course, what makes most sad is the number of Afghan lives that we have lost in the form of the Taliban and in the form of those fighting against the Taliban from Afghanistan. So, the lack of complete security for the Afghan people is one of my greatest sorrows and perhaps my greatest failure. Though the country on the whole has seen a lot of stability and peace, but even one home feeling unsafe is equal to the whole country feeling unsafe.   Amitabh Matoo: Regarding India, you talked about its contribution in education.  I talked to a group of Afghan students and they said that the American University may set-up a campus in Kabul. Would the Afghan Government be open to Jammu University  setting up a campus in Kabul? Or a public-private partnership in education?   Hamid Karzai: Absolutely! We want investment in education from Indian public and private players. As soon as possible, in any numbers as you like. You are already too late. Hurry up! Hurry up! This is one of the best services that you can offer the Afghan people. Also, we would encourage investment in health, in Information Technology, in infrastructure building and Agriculture.   Amitabh Matoo: In terms of the region, now that Afghanistan is a part of SAARC how do you view the process of regional integration? And what about Pakistan? You know there is concern  within India about Pakistan being  a spoiler.   Hamid Karzai: Well, this is a very important issue, for Afghanistan, for Pakistan and for India. Wisdom would not lead us in any other direction but in the direction of openness and co-operation. If we continue to have blockages for transit and transport, in exchanges of trade and commerce, we are not hurting the other countries, we are hurting ourselves. So, this is not only a policy, this is a human wish for the next generations of the countries of the world, of this region, especially the three countries. If we want to live in prosperity, we have to open up, completely separating politics from it. I would very much recommend an open road system, open exchanges of goods, of industry, of talents. Eventually this is going to happen, it will be better if it happens sooner.   Pakistan should give access to India to move to Central Asia. India should give full access to Pakistan to move to East Asia. India must recognize Pakistan's importance and Pakistan must recognize India's importance. Afghanistan will be happy to be engaged with both.   Amitabh Matoo: The issue of trade, as you said, should be divorced from politics but unfortunately given the history of India- Pakistan relations that's not always been so. We hope that this will change. I was in Pakistan just after the election and with the Awami National Party winning power in the North Western Frontier Province (NWFP), the new leadership is thinking of talking to the local Taliban and reviving the spirit of Pashtoonwali – the traditional cultural and social ethos and code of honour  of the Pashtuns - as a way of combating extremism. You have often talked about talking to sections of Taliban? Do you think that this is possible? Will it lead anywhere?   Hamid Karzai: Yes! First of all, the victory of ANP in the elections of North-West Frontier Provinces proved that given the opportunity, all people will vote for common sense and moderation.  And the people of North-Western Frontier Province proved this in a very clear voice, by voting for a moderate, life-oriented representation. So the propaganda that the Pashtoons were extremists or harboured extremists was proven wrong by the votes that the Pashtoon cast in favour of ANP. Indeed, the Pashtoons, they were victims of extremism and terrorism. As soon as they got the opportunity, they rejected extremism and terrorism. They wanted a moderate representation, giving them hope for the future.  ANP's fight against extremism is clear. They do not want to negotiate with those foreign extremists who found a place, a sanctuary, in the Pashtoon lands. They want them removed, which is good. But they want to talk to fellow Pashtoons, to their fellow men to find ways of freeing them from the grips of extremism. I would entirely support them. So, fight the extremist radicals with guns, liberate the rest.   Amitabh Matoo: Would you see this happening even in Afghanistan?   Hamid Karzai: Afghanistan has been saying this for a long time. We want to talk and bring back to our country those who are driven out from Afghanistan by fear or consigned to bad treatment by us or by the earlier Afghan Government or the coalition. But we will not allow extremism, we will continue to fight the Al-Qaida and terrorist networks or those who are associated with them. And those who are driven out because fear or ignorance must be given a chance to come back.   Amitabh Matoo: So, do you think the legacy of someone like Badshah Khan, the Frontier Gandhi, can be mainstreamed within the Pashtoons?   Hamid Karzai: Immensely, immensely, his call for non-violence is a major issue today, a major issue today. And for the Pashtoons, Badshah Khan, a man like that, with a vision like that is a source of immense inspiration! At a time like today when there is so much violence inflicted upon people,  so much suffering, destruction, people being driven away from homes, that vision of Badshah Khan is the best service to the cause of    Amitabh Matoo: I am sure you are aware of the catch-22 nature of the region's relationship with the United States. On the one hand, some feel that there is a genuine need for the presence and influence of the US and international community, especially here, to combat terrorism. And, yet, on the other, there seems to be growing anti-Americanism all over the region.   Hamid Karzai: Afghanistan is, as a nation, very-very grateful to the United States of America for liberating us. We were an occupied country, almost entirely, six years ago and the United States and the rest of the world helped us liberate ourselves. Not only that, the United States came to reconstruct our country. All the comforts, all the signs of reconstruction in Afghanistan are mostly done with the help of the United States and then of course, other countries. In Afghanistan, there is no anti-Americanism, fortunately. We were grateful, even in the past, to America, because we were together fighting the Soviet army. Afghanistan's natural tendencies have always been pro- capitalism, free enterprise, and private ownership. We see the US as a God loving and God fearing country generally. I don't know why, but I have not heard of sections of India being anti-American.    Amitabh Matoo: In India to a limited extent, but in Pakistan anti-Americanism  seems to be very intense   Hamid Karzai: Yes, Pakistan. I heard a lot about it. But, I don't know whether that's true or it is only in the media, or driven by certain interests.  But I can only speak for Afghanistan and I can speak only for the Afghan people. There is overwhelming support for the United States and for the United States presence in Afghanistan. And there is growing friendship between India and the United States. We encourage that, very much.   Amitabh Matoo: Just before I came to Kabul, the Indian media carried a story which said that the Afghan Government has stopped some Indian soap operas and there was some criticism in the media.   Hamid Karzai: We have not stopped that, there was the Clergy Council of Afghanistan, the religious ulema. They had a complaint with not only   Indian dramas but also Pakistani dramas and some other items in the Afghan media that they did not like from the religious point of view, not being in tone with the day to day life of people. The commission was set up to correct parts of it, not to remove it. The Afghan people love watching those dramas.   Amitabh Matoo: But this censorship is in no ways signaling a return to the days of the Taliban regime?   Hamid Karzai: Not at all. Not at all. Not at all. Definitely, not, Definitely, not, Definitely, not. We were always an extremely friendly society in Afghanistan, towards India. Even when I was growing up.  Among the youth here there is as much knowledge about India and Indian movies as we had when we were that age and even more.   Amitabh Matoo: Even the official photographer said that  he had learnt Hindi from the films.   Hamid Karzai: Of course, sure, they have all done that, absolutely.   Amitabh Matoo: When you were young did you see Indian movies?   Hamid Karzai: Of course, in our times the films were better. I don't know if I can say that. The new directors will get mad at us!   Amitabh Matoo: The expatriate Afghan writer Khalid Husseini's , A  Thousand Splendid Suns was recently published. It has become very popular, but it has also raised  concerns about the place and role of Afghan women. What kind of role do you see for women in Afghanistan?   Hamid Karzai: It is an evolving and improving and developing role, but I was very happy to see so many of Afghan girls graduating recently. Almost half were girls.  Almost half were girls, especially in the Medical Sciences. They are not many in Engineering, just a few of them. Most of them from Medical Sciences, a lot of them. They are growing happily. But, Afghanistan has a long way to travel, a long way to travel. We have to be realistic about it and keep trying, very-very hard. The best service for Afghan women, the best help to them to function better, is to educate them and then to educate them better. There is no shortcut, unfortunately.   Amitabh Matoo: How do you see yourself? All these years as President, are you a happier person, a most satisfied person or a more stressed person?   Hamid Karzai: In thoughts, I am very happy.  And I was very happy yesterday, in giving the Certificates and Diplomas to all the graduates, And I am happy when I have to inaugurate a road, to inaugurate a school, to see people getting education and seeing young Afghan talent emerging and to see democracy taking roots in Afghanistan, institutional structures taking roots in Afghanistan and empowerment of the judiciary, the freedom of the press. And it causes me pain, personally, I feel hurt when the press criticizes me unfairly. And of course, I have immense moments of anguish and anger when the Afghans suffer in bomb-blasts, in acts of terrorism. When our villages are bombed, our people suffer. This makes me very angry.   Amitabh Matoo: We hope that you will be elected for your next tenure. But, what would be your principle agenda for the next term?   Hamid Karzai: To continue to rebuild Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, the agenda is very broad. It is not like in other countries, it is not like in India, where you have certain things and you want to add other things. In Afghanistan, we have to move in all the directions, at the same time. Keep building schools, keep building roads, keep adding quantity and quality to it. In your part of the world, it is sometimes quantity. But in terms of the achievements, you keep adding to the quality that you have. In Afghanistan, we must work on fronts, quantity and quality.   Better roads, more roads. More schools, better schools. More hospitals, better hospitals. More teachers, better teachers. More wages, higher wages. So, strengthening of the institutions and having ability to abide by the law, improving the rule of law and working on finishing this culture of impurity, where offenders go unpunished.   Amitabh Matoo: And combating corruption.   Hamid Karzai: And combating corruption and combating extremism It is a very full house of activity.   Amitabh Matoo: Excellency, how do you de-stress yourself? I mean as a Vice-Chancellor, I feel stressed at the end of the day. but yours' is the most challenging job perhaps in the whole world.\   Hamid Karzai: I think for me now, the best stress buster is the sight of my son, when I go to him. He is fourteen months old now, just beginning to learn words. Each day go to see him in the evening, he has picked up a new word. This morning he learnt 'Kela'.   Amitabh Matoo: What is his name?   Hamid Karzai: Mirwais. Mirwais is one of the greatest Afghan personalities. He was the person who began the modern concept of loya jirga, when Afghanistan had the Iranian ruler, actually Georgian. He was from Georgia named 'Gurgan Khan' ruling in Kandhar. There began a movement of the Afghan people through consultations. What you call in your country the 'Panchayat System'.  Through the Panchayat, he began a system of consultations that eventually liberated Afghanistan. Not through military means, through civilian action and consultation. A bright man! Of course, his sons created then an empire towards the west, towards Iran, right up to Isfahan and that was a short lived one.   Amitabh Matoo: Thank you very much, Excellency!   Hamid Karzai: Welcome, Vice-Chancellor, welcome.   (The interview was originally published in India and Global Affairs Magazine) _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> __________________________________________________________ Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From phadkeshilpa at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 16:55:49 2008 From: phadkeshilpa at gmail.com (Shilpa Phadke) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:55:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: [vikalp] Adda and Vikalp@TISS: RELEASE AJAY TG FILM FESTIVAL In-Reply-To: <23a2fd5a0807292259v1dce4a0i910ebd94078e9a45@mail.gmail.com> References: <23a2fd5a0807292259v1dce4a0i910ebd94078e9a45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: *Adda*, the film club of the Centre for Media and Cultural Studies and *Vikalp : Films For Freedom*, Mumbai cordially invite you to attend the *RELEASE AJAY TG FILM FESTIVAL* *Join the Campaign!* releaseajaytg at gmail.com www.releaseajaytg.in *on August 4, 2008 at 6pm * * * *Conference Hall, Tata Institute of Social Sciences* as part of the nationwide campaign by filmmakers and human rights activists for the release of Ajay TG, arbitrarily arrested on 5th May 2008 under the Chattisgarh Special Public Security Act (CSPSA) . The arrests of Ajay and earlier of Dr. Binayak Sen in May 2007 are the tip of the iceberg of state-sponsored repression and stifling of dissent in Chattisgarh. The festival will also be an occasion to kick off a signature drive and other events in solidarity with the campaign, at TISS. *Adda* is a new initiative of CMCS students, which will have screenings on every Monday at 6pm. *Vikalp* is a nationwide collective of filmmakers against censorship and for freedom of expression. It has regular screenings in Mumbai. Every first Monday of the month, during the semester, will be a Vikalp at TISS event. *SCHEDULE* *1800 hrs* * * Introduction to Adda, Vikalp at Tiss and the campaign * * *1815 hrs*** *Anjam */ Original Language 20 mins 41 sec / 2007-08 Directed by Ajay TG Documentary about Binayak Sen *The Other Side of the Mirror * 7 mins 26 sec Extract of unfinished film which links a critique of Indian chauvinism with the contrast between the education of rich and poor children and then introduces the *bal angan *which Ajay started. *Aisa Kyon? * 1 min 51sec / 2007 / Original Language Short drama devised and shot by girls at the school run by Ajay TG. The brief was to focus on an issue which affects them. In this film they chose discrimination in education. It was to have been the first of a series of such short dramas on various issues but the project has been interrupted by Ajay's imprisonment. *Hathaure Wala *(Man with the Hammer) 5 mins 46 sec / 1999 / Original Language Directed by Ajay TG A portrait of an 80-year old lohar (blacksmith) who works in the shadow of the Bhilai Steel Plant in Chhattisgarh. This is Ajay's first film and one from the first trio of films made at Jandarshan. *Golapalli: A Fact Finding by the PUCL * 15mins / 2004 / Original Language Direction, Camera, Editing and Graphics by Ajay TG This film describes an incident in which two school teachers and a student were killed by paramilitary forces in Village Golapalli, Tehsil Konta, District Bastar. The film is based on testimonies of the people of the village to a fact finding team of the Peoples Union for Civil Liberties. *Heads and Tales * 20 mins 54 sec / 2002 / English subititles Directed by Alpa Shah and Ajay TG Research and Script by Alpa Shah A Jandarshan student film about the relationship between tradition and politics. *Parha Mela*, a festival in Jharkhand, was initiated to symbolise tribal unity and the tribal system of socio-political governance. From 1990 it became two separate events, held two kilometres away from one another on the same day, each supported by a politician of a different party. The film explores this dichotomy. *The Journey (Safar) * 15 mins 7 sec / 2001 / English subtitles Directed by Reeta Chandel and Ajay TG A Jandarshan student film about Reeta's father, a porter in the hospital of the Bhilai Steel Plant. This film is a development of Reeta's 5 minute film, *Papa Says*, shot by Ajay, as part of an earlier student exercise. *The Journey *was made because Ajay felt that they should explore questions about marriage and gender which had come up by chance during the shooting of the earlier film. *Photographs * 5 mins 57 sec / 2007 A sequence of stills taken by girls in the school Ajay runs, put in order and set to music. *2000 hrs* Moderated discussion and plan for campaign follow-up. Vikalp at Tiss is a monthly series of documentaries and shorts brought to you by Vikalp: Films For Freedom in collaboration with Adda, The CMCS Film Club at the TISS Conference Hall on the first Monday of every month from 6 PM onwards. This is the first event of Vikalp at Tiss and of Adda. For more information or inquiries on screening your film, please send an email to adda.cmcs at gmail.com **Centre for Media and Cultural Studies, Tata Institute of Social Sciences, Sion Trombay Road, Opposite Deonar Bus Depot, Mumbai-88.Tel: 022-25525667** From kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 30 18:23:48 2008 From: kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk (Kashmir Affairs) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:53:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview In-Reply-To: <376685.47380.qm@web57215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <572448.49155.qm@web27807.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Kshmendra, sorry don't have time for discussions rite now.... can't promise but hope to further elaborate at some time in future. cheers, murtaza --- On Wed, 30/7/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: From: Kshmendra Kaul Subject: Re: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview To: , kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk Date: Wednesday, 30 July, 2008, 11:55 AM Shibli Sahib   Jab chaaha nazron mein liya, aur jab chaaha nazarandaaz kiya. Ye kaisa zulm? (At times you choose to pay heed to me and at times you choose to ignore me. Why this cruelty?   What happened to my enquiries about the dimensions of "Open Borders / Joint Control of Kashmir"?   I will not provide my list of or ratings for those who deserve to be included in the 'brutality scale', but yes, it is an interesting interview of Karzai.   Take care   Kshmendra --- On Wed, 7/30/08, Kashmir Affairs wrote: From: Kashmir Affairs Subject: Re: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Wednesday, July 30, 2008, 3:15 PM wonderful. Thanks for sharing this. Afghan rule is one of the darkest rules in Kashmir. First being the Sikh rule. Kakar Khan, the Afghan governor was the most brutal - he is even said to have bit ear of a corpse. Jagmohan Malhotra - the governor in 1990s was likened with Kakar Khan by the Kashmiri newspapers for his brutality. Murtaza Shibli --- On Wed, 30/7/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: From: Kshmendra Kaul Subject: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview To: "sarai list" Date: Wednesday, 30 July, 2008, 9:58 AM This interview has apparently been published in 'Sakaal IGA' (India and Global Affairs) magazine http://www.igamag.com/milestones.html   I received it titled with "Afghanistan had a period of very bad rule in Kashmir" quote of Karzai.    Kshmendra       Afghanistan had a period of very bad rule in Kashmir   (The interview was originally published in India and Global Affairs Magazine)   There are few leaders in the world that that have encountered threats to their life almost every single day of their tenure. Even in the recent past, the President of Afghanistan,   Hamid Karzai, has survived at least four serious assassination attempts and scores of other plots that were hatched by all those opposed to his vision of building a 'new' Afghanistan. Not surprisingly then, gaining entry to his fortified residence in Kabul is a visitor's nightmare. Not even a pencil is allowed in, as a combination of mechanical, human and canine interceptors attempt to secure the President. Journalists are treated with exceptional suspicion after an Al Qaeda suicide squad, posing as a television crew, assassinated Ahmad Shah Massoud, described today as " the national hero of Afghanistan", two days before 9/11.  The only recent change in the security infrastructure is the gradual transition from the ubiquitous US Marines in the Presidential Palace to more Afghan guards. On the streets of Kabul, the sense of a country and a city under siege is no less. Heads of missions routinely travel in bulletproof vehicles escorted by vehicles with jammers to disable IEDs, and Embassies are fortified with several sets of concrete walls to prevent suicide bombers from gaining access. That, however, did not prevent the suicide attack on the Indian embassy that killed two Indian diplomats and scores of others.  But Hamid Karzai displays none of the tension and insecurity that goes with being the President of arguably one of the most difficult and insecure states in the international system. Charismatic, charming, confident and remarkably articulate in English, Karzai comes across as a leader genuinely wanting to make a difference. Although hurt by criticism over corruption in his government and by descriptions of him as being  little more than the Mayor of Kabul, the President of Afghanistan seems still genuinely  committed  to building  an Afghanistan at peace with itself and the outside world.  With a remarkable understanding of Afghan history, 51-year old, Hamid Karzai, an ethnic Pashtun of the Popalzai clan of the Durrani tribe, has a great sense of pride in his people and his country.   Hamid Karzai, In a free-wheeling  interview with  Amitabh Mattoo, Vice Chancellor, University of Jammu, outlines his vision for Afghanistan and the Afghan people.   Excerpts from the interview:   Hamid Karzai:  Welcome Vice-Chancellor! Are there any students from Afghanistan in Jammu and Kashmir?   Amitabh Matoo: Not at the moment. But while I was growing up in Srinagar, we had many Afghan students.   Hamid Karzai: You know, Afghanistan had a period of very bad rule in Kashmir. Have you studied that?   Amitabh Matoo: Yes, Sir!   Hamid Karzai: Do the Kashmiris talk about it?   Amitabh Matoo: They talk about Afghan rule, not in the most pleasant of terms.   Hamid Karzai: They don't? Where is Zalmay Rasool? Bring him? Let us defame him. We have here my National Security Advisor, Zalmay Rasool. His great grandfather was the Afghan Governor of Kashmir. A terrible Governor. He was the last Governor of Kashmir of Afghanistan. When he went there, people came to greet him. As is the custom in this part of the world, they asked him "what can we do for you Mr. Governor or your Highness?" because he was his Highness the King's brother or cousin. So, he said, "I would like to help you by buying the wind from you", and the elders of Kashmir went out, consulted each other. They came back and said, fine. They sold him the wind and he gave them a couple of thousands or lakhs of rupees and he bought the wind. Time went by. They were reaping their crops and separating the chaff from the wheat and he came and said "the wind is mine", and then he charged them 25 percent of their annual products! Imagine.   Amitabh Matoo: I didn't know this.   Hamid Karzai: Oh, he became the richest man in Afghanistan. This man's name was Azeem. Before him, there was Governor called Attah. Attah was a very good man. Azeem was the last Governor. So, the people of Kashmir wrote a poem in Persian to Amir Dost Mohammed Khan, the king of Afghanistan. In that poem they kind of explained to him that this is not the right kind of governor:    "Attai Mohammed ma burai, Bala-i-Azeeme har ma firastane".   Attah means 'gift' - they say in the poem that you have taken away the gift of Mohammed, meaning the Prophet Mohammed - from us and sent us a 'great (Azeem)' evil in its place. When the king read this, he recalled the Governor. With that also came the end of Afghan rule in Kashmir.   Amitabh Matoo: I know, it was not a pleasant time.   Hamid Karzai: And what is your own field?   Amitabh Matoo: International Relations. I did my D.Phil from Oxford University and then I came back and taught at Jawaharlal Nehru University (JNU) for some years.   Hamid Karzai: JNU, a great place! I like that institution a lot. India will do very well, if it continues to lay emphasis on intellectual excellence.  And it must do more in the field of value education. You have embedded in the Indian culture and psyche, the depth of knowledge. And that is an immense asset in your hands in India. If you can continue to combine that, with modern science and with the humility and humbleness that Indian culture offers, that combination will make India one of the greatest countries in the world in the coming years. I am always afraid, that the new generations of India will misunderstand modernity; that they will interpret modernity as not wearing, say, a sari. The sari used here as a symbol for many things.  Your depth of cultural beauty is the most important concern for humanity. Going beyond the self, is one of the greatest assets of India. What Gandhi ji has done for you, in terms of the struggle for rights and going beyond self. Sometimes I am concerned. I hope I am wrong. What is your view? Do you think the young in India know what they are doing?   Amitabh Matoo: I think it is one of the great challenges.   Hamid Karzai: It is?   Amitabh Matoo: And what is happening is that occasionally we lose the balance, while being driven by, as you pointed out, the attractiveness of modernity. Sometimes it is so seductive that you begin to lose your moorings, your roots.   Hamid Karzai: Attractiveness of modernity or modernity misdefined?   Amitabh Matoo: I agree, modernity misdefined. But the greatness of India, as you pointed out will be that it will, hopefully, be able to strike and sustain the right balance.   Hamid Karzai: To sustain it will take an amount of effort. But let us hope that it happens!   Amitabh Matoo: How do you look back at your tenure as President, in terms of what you have been able to achieve and what you thought you could have possibly done better?     Hamid Karzai: When I look back at my past six years as the President of Afghanistan, my greatest success is that I made Afghanistan home for all Afghans. All Afghans feel comfortable here, those who were fighting with each other in the streets of this country, are now sitting side by side in the Parliament, debating each other, voting for each other, making alliances, breaking alliances. The other big achievement is in the return of Afghan boys and girls to education, I wish we had invited you yesterday, we forgot, to the commencement ceremony of 600 students from all around the country, who graduated from various faculties of Universities of Afghanistan. It was a great-great day.   I take pride also in  the improvement in health services, of  which  earlier we had almost none. I also brought back to this country  the voice of the people. They can talk now; they have the freedom to express themselves, freedom of expression, freedom of speech and a culture of debate in society.  I have exposed the government to criticism. The government is no longer the ruler. It is a body facing serious public scrutiny. Just a few minutes before you came, there was the German press with me. They grilled me on corruption, grilled me completely, and roasted me. Good! That is what I want.  I brought back to this country, the public treasure. There is financial procedure, norms, a code of conduct. There are no secret or hidden accounts. The country has gone from 180 dollars per capita to two times higher. It is nearly 355 dollars now. The legitimate GDP has doubled.  Afghanistan has found its place back in the rest of the world. Its flag is flying all around the world. Its presence is all around the world. There is no venue in which Afghanistan is not present.  Afghanistan has built more roads in the past 5-6 years then it has ever built in its life. Afghans spend more than they did even before. Of course, all of this is due to the help of the international community. And, most importantly, Afghanistan was removed from being a surrogate in this part of world to this or that country. Its identity, its independence is no longer as threatened.   Amitabh Matoo: And the failures? The problems?   Hamid Karzai: Afghanistan has lots of problems.  Poppy and the opium trade, which will not go away in spite of all my efforts for another 10-15 years.  We have to work together: our society and the international community to deal with this huge problem. Much of the poppy cultivation is driven by desperation. So, desperation has to go away for people to resort to legitimate forms of agriculture.   Afghanistan still has a very weak capacity in administration. It doesn't have the tools, the human capital to deliver the goods to its people. And, of course, what makes most sad is the number of Afghan lives that we have lost in the form of the Taliban and in the form of those fighting against the Taliban from Afghanistan. So, the lack of complete security for the Afghan people is one of my greatest sorrows and perhaps my greatest failure. Though the country on the whole has seen a lot of stability and peace, but even one home feeling unsafe is equal to the whole country feeling unsafe.   Amitabh Matoo: Regarding India, you talked about its contribution in education.  I talked to a group of Afghan students and they said that the American University may set-up a campus in Kabul. Would the Afghan Government be open to Jammu University  setting up a campus in Kabul? Or a public-private partnership in education?   Hamid Karzai: Absolutely! We want investment in education from Indian public and private players. As soon as possible, in any numbers as you like. You are already too late. Hurry up! Hurry up! This is one of the best services that you can offer the Afghan people. Also, we would encourage investment in health, in Information Technology, in infrastructure building and Agriculture.   Amitabh Matoo: In terms of the region, now that Afghanistan is a part of SAARC how do you view the process of regional integration? And what about Pakistan? You know there is concern  within India about Pakistan being  a spoiler.   Hamid Karzai: Well, this is a very important issue, for Afghanistan, for Pakistan and for India. Wisdom would not lead us in any other direction but in the direction of openness and co-operation. If we continue to have blockages for transit and transport, in exchanges of trade and commerce, we are not hurting the other countries, we are hurting ourselves. So, this is not only a policy, this is a human wish for the next generations of the countries of the world, of this region, especially the three countries. If we want to live in prosperity, we have to open up, completely separating politics from it. I would very much recommend an open road system, open exchanges of goods, of industry, of talents. Eventually this is going to happen, it will be better if it happens sooner.   Pakistan should give access to India to move to Central Asia. India should give full access to Pakistan to move to East Asia. India must recognize Pakistan's importance and Pakistan must recognize India's importance. Afghanistan will be happy to be engaged with both.   Amitabh Matoo: The issue of trade, as you said, should be divorced from politics but unfortunately given the history of India- Pakistan relations that's not always been so. We hope that this will change. I was in Pakistan just after the election and with the Awami National Party winning power in the North Western Frontier Province (NWFP), the new leadership is thinking of talking to the local Taliban and reviving the spirit of Pashtoonwali – the traditional cultural and social ethos and code of honour  of the Pashtuns - as a way of combating extremism. You have often talked about talking to sections of Taliban? Do you think that this is possible? Will it lead anywhere?   Hamid Karzai: Yes! First of all, the victory of ANP in the elections of North-West Frontier Provinces proved that given the opportunity, all people will vote for common sense and moderation.  And the people of North-Western Frontier Province proved this in a very clear voice, by voting for a moderate, life-oriented representation. So the propaganda that the Pashtoons were extremists or harboured extremists was proven wrong by the votes that the Pashtoon cast in favour of ANP. Indeed, the Pashtoons, they were victims of extremism and terrorism. As soon as they got the opportunity, they rejected extremism and terrorism. They wanted a moderate representation, giving them hope for the future.  ANP's fight against extremism is clear. They do not want to negotiate with those foreign extremists who found a place, a sanctuary, in the Pashtoon lands. They want them removed, which is good. But they want to talk to fellow Pashtoons, to their fellow men to find ways of freeing them from the grips of extremism. I would entirely support them. So, fight the extremist radicals with guns, liberate the rest.   Amitabh Matoo: Would you see this happening even in Afghanistan?   Hamid Karzai: Afghanistan has been saying this for a long time. We want to talk and bring back to our country those who are driven out from Afghanistan by fear or consigned to bad treatment by us or by the earlier Afghan Government or the coalition. But we will not allow extremism, we will continue to fight the Al-Qaida and terrorist networks or those who are associated with them. And those who are driven out because fear or ignorance must be given a chance to come back.   Amitabh Matoo: So, do you think the legacy of someone like Badshah Khan, the Frontier Gandhi, can be mainstreamed within the Pashtoons?   Hamid Karzai: Immensely, immensely, his call for non-violence is a major issue today, a major issue today. And for the Pashtoons, Badshah Khan, a man like that, with a vision like that is a source of immense inspiration! At a time like today when there is so much violence inflicted upon people,  so much suffering, destruction, people being driven away from homes, that vision of Badshah Khan is the best service to the cause of    Amitabh Matoo: I am sure you are aware of the catch-22 nature of the region's relationship with the United States. On the one hand, some feel that there is a genuine need for the presence and influence of the US and international community, especially here, to combat terrorism. And, yet, on the other, there seems to be growing anti-Americanism all over the region.   Hamid Karzai: Afghanistan is, as a nation, very-very grateful to the United States of America for liberating us. We were an occupied country, almost entirely, six years ago and the United States and the rest of the world helped us liberate ourselves. Not only that, the United States came to reconstruct our country. All the comforts, all the signs of reconstruction in Afghanistan are mostly done with the help of the United States and then of course, other countries. In Afghanistan, there is no anti-Americanism, fortunately. We were grateful, even in the past, to America, because we were together fighting the Soviet army. Afghanistan's natural tendencies have always been pro- capitalism, free enterprise, and private ownership. We see the US as a God loving and God fearing country generally. I don't know why, but I have not heard of sections of India being anti-American.    Amitabh Matoo: In India to a limited extent, but in Pakistan anti-Americanism  seems to be very intense   Hamid Karzai: Yes, Pakistan. I heard a lot about it. But, I don't know whether that's true or it is only in the media, or driven by certain interests.  But I can only speak for Afghanistan and I can speak only for the Afghan people. There is overwhelming support for the United States and for the United States presence in Afghanistan. And there is growing friendship between India and the United States. We encourage that, very much.   Amitabh Matoo: Just before I came to Kabul, the Indian media carried a story which said that the Afghan Government has stopped some Indian soap operas and there was some criticism in the media.   Hamid Karzai: We have not stopped that, there was the Clergy Council of Afghanistan, the religious ulema. They had a complaint with not only   Indian dramas but also Pakistani dramas and some other items in the Afghan media that they did not like from the religious point of view, not being in tone with the day to day life of people. The commission was set up to correct parts of it, not to remove it. The Afghan people love watching those dramas.   Amitabh Matoo: But this censorship is in no ways signaling a return to the days of the Taliban regime?   Hamid Karzai: Not at all. Not at all. Not at all. Definitely, not, Definitely, not, Definitely, not. We were always an extremely friendly society in Afghanistan, towards India. Even when I was growing up.  Among the youth here there is as much knowledge about India and Indian movies as we had when we were that age and even more.   Amitabh Matoo: Even the official photographer said that  he had learnt Hindi from the films.   Hamid Karzai: Of course, sure, they have all done that, absolutely.   Amitabh Matoo: When you were young did you see Indian movies?   Hamid Karzai: Of course, in our times the films were better. I don't know if I can say that. The new directors will get mad at us!   Amitabh Matoo: The expatriate Afghan writer Khalid Husseini's , A  Thousand Splendid Suns was recently published. It has become very popular, but it has also raised  concerns about the place and role of Afghan women. What kind of role do you see for women in Afghanistan?   Hamid Karzai: It is an evolving and improving and developing role, but I was very happy to see so many of Afghan girls graduating recently. Almost half were girls.  Almost half were girls, especially in the Medical Sciences. They are not many in Engineering, just a few of them. Most of them from Medical Sciences, a lot of them. They are growing happily. But, Afghanistan has a long way to travel, a long way to travel. We have to be realistic about it and keep trying, very-very hard. The best service for Afghan women, the best help to them to function better, is to educate them and then to educate them better. There is no shortcut, unfortunately.   Amitabh Matoo: How do you see yourself? All these years as President, are you a happier person, a most satisfied person or a more stressed person?   Hamid Karzai: In thoughts, I am very happy.  And I was very happy yesterday, in giving the Certificates and Diplomas to all the graduates, And I am happy when I have to inaugurate a road, to inaugurate a school, to see people getting education and seeing young Afghan talent emerging and to see democracy taking roots in Afghanistan, institutional structures taking roots in Afghanistan and empowerment of the judiciary, the freedom of the press. And it causes me pain, personally, I feel hurt when the press criticizes me unfairly. And of course, I have immense moments of anguish and anger when the Afghans suffer in bomb-blasts, in acts of terrorism. When our villages are bombed, our people suffer. This makes me very angry.   Amitabh Matoo: We hope that you will be elected for your next tenure. But, what would be your principle agenda for the next term?   Hamid Karzai: To continue to rebuild Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, the agenda is very broad. It is not like in other countries, it is not like in India, where you have certain things and you want to add other things. In Afghanistan, we have to move in all the directions, at the same time. Keep building schools, keep building roads, keep adding quantity and quality to it. In your part of the world, it is sometimes quantity. But in terms of the achievements, you keep adding to the quality that you have. In Afghanistan, we must work on fronts, quantity and quality.   Better roads, more roads. More schools, better schools. More hospitals, better hospitals. More teachers, better teachers. More wages, higher wages. So, strengthening of the institutions and having ability to abide by the law, improving the rule of law and working on finishing this culture of impurity, where offenders go unpunished.   Amitabh Matoo: And combating corruption.   Hamid Karzai: And combating corruption and combating extremism It is a very full house of activity.   Amitabh Matoo: Excellency, how do you de-stress yourself? I mean as a Vice-Chancellor, I feel stressed at the end of the day. but yours' is the most challenging job perhaps in the whole world.\   Hamid Karzai: I think for me now, the best stress buster is the sight of my son, when I go to him. He is fourteen months old now, just beginning to learn words. Each day go to see him in the evening, he has picked up a new word. This morning he learnt 'Kela'.   Amitabh Matoo: What is his name?   Hamid Karzai: Mirwais. Mirwais is one of the greatest Afghan personalities. He was the person who began the modern concept of loya jirga, when Afghanistan had the Iranian ruler, actually Georgian. He was from Georgia named 'Gurgan Khan' ruling in Kandhar. There began a movement of the Afghan people through consultations. What you call in your country the 'Panchayat System'.  Through the Panchayat, he began a system of consultations that eventually liberated Afghanistan. Not through military means, through civilian action and consultation. A bright man! Of course, his sons created then an empire towards the west, towards Iran, right up to Isfahan and that was a short lived one.   Amitabh Matoo: Thank you very much, Excellency!   Hamid Karzai: Welcome, Vice-Chancellor, welcome.   (The interview was originally published in India and Global Affairs Magazine) _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. 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Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 19:34:56 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 19:34:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview In-Reply-To: <572448.49155.qm@web27807.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <376685.47380.qm@web57215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <572448.49155.qm@web27807.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70807300704y5599ae2sd4b43e018aaf0206@mail.gmail.com> Dear Sshmendra, To exercise brutality is part of power structure, we all know, it is often implict, but we tend to discuss its explicty form only, perhpas, because that suits us to take sides easily, but we are likely to fall in the trap.... so we all need to watch our words... YOU will agree with me that mr. Jagmohan, ex governver, is an RSS man.... i wonder why on earth he banned sheep slaughter in kashmir on ashtamis. that was the most unfortunate provocation , and Nisar Qazi in anantnag responded appropriately by slaying sheeps openly on ashtamis, and the stupid governer sahib could not do anything but watch...... then, Why on earth Jagmohan ordered firing on the masses in 1990 for which he is criticized by each and every kashmiri, imagine if a person like mAHATMA gANdhi was there incharge, would he order such a firing on innocent gathering....of whatever nature... and if we dismiss gandhi, and use him only on currency notes, then it is the same case of Jab chaaha nazron mein liya, aur jab chaaha nazarandaaz kiya. Ye kaisa zulm? (At times you choose to pay heed to me and at times you choose to ignore me. Why this cruelty? although i dont agree with the popular theory that jagmohan masterminded the exodus of kashmiri pandits, but i would like to see him tried in international court of justice for ordering such a massacre.... and immmediately after that,we need to talk about what india has lost in kashmir , a permenant loss of face, and gained what? the name of a opressor... coming back to interview, and the brutal afgan rule in kashmir... i remember, #the line by JL Godard, the french film maker.... THE CROSS OF CHRISTIANS IS ON THE SHOULDERS OF JEWS, , AND THE CROSS OF JEWS IS ON THE SHOULDERS OF PALESTENINES. i truly wish, that the issue of brutality on innocent masses is talked without prejudice....that way we can even talk about the brutality against kashmiri pandits in kashmir 1990, or any other kind of violence in the world.... after all what we finally do with our imposed identieis...they finally dissolve, and what is lasting in this world, something which gandhi believed in,,, ... i am not a absolute admirer of gandhi , but what he achieved will pass the test of time, and what jagmohan ad the afgan ruler did in kashmir will not, ... with love inder salim On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 6:23 PM, Kashmir Affairs wrote: > Kshmendra, > sorry don't have time for discussions rite now.... > can't promise but hope to further elaborate at some time in future. > cheers, > murtaza > > --- On Wed, 30/7/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview > To: , kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk > Date: Wednesday, 30 July, 2008, 11:55 AM > > Shibli Sahib > > Jab chaaha nazron mein liya, aur jab chaaha nazarandaaz kiya. Ye kaisa > zulm? (At times you choose to pay heed to me and at times you choose to > ignore me. Why this cruelty? > > What happened to my enquiries about the dimensions of "Open Borders / Joint > Control of Kashmir"? > > I will not provide my list of or ratings for those who deserve to be > included in the 'brutality scale', but yes, it is an interesting interview > of Karzai. > > Take care > > Kshmendra > > --- On Wed, 7/30/08, Kashmir Affairs wrote: > > From: Kashmir Affairs > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Wednesday, July 30, 2008, 3:15 PM > > wonderful. Thanks for sharing this. > Afghan rule is one of the darkest rules in Kashmir. First being the Sikh > rule. > Kakar Khan, the Afghan governor was the most brutal - he is even said to > have > bit ear of a corpse. Jagmohan Malhotra - the governor in 1990s was likened > with > Kakar Khan by the Kashmiri newspapers for his brutality. > > Murtaza Shibli > > > --- On Wed, 30/7/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview > To: "sarai list" > Date: Wednesday, 30 July, 2008, 9:58 AM > > This interview has apparently been published in 'Sakaal IGA' (India and > Global Affairs) magazine http://www.igamag.com/milestones.html > > I received it titled with "Afghanistan had a period of very bad rule in > Kashmir" quote of Karzai. > > Kshmendra > > > > Afghanistan had a period of very bad rule in Kashmir > > (The interview was originally published in India and Global Affairs > Magazine) > > There are few leaders in the world that that have encountered threats to > their > life almost every single day of their tenure. Even in the recent past, the > President of Afghanistan, Hamid Karzai, has survived at least four > serious > assassination attempts and scores of other plots that were hatched by all > those > opposed to his vision of building a 'new' Afghanistan. Not surprisingly > then, gaining entry to his fortified residence in Kabul is a visitor's > nightmare. Not even a pencil is allowed in, as a combination of mechanical, > human and canine interceptors attempt to secure the President. Journalists > are > treated with exceptional suspicion after an Al Qaeda suicide squad, posing > as a > television crew, assassinated Ahmad Shah Massoud, described today as " the > national hero of Afghanistan", two days before 9/11. > > The only recent change in the security infrastructure is the gradual > transition from the ubiquitous US Marines in the Presidential Palace to > more > Afghan guards. On the streets of Kabul, the sense of a country and a city > under > siege is no less. Heads of missions routinely travel in bulletproof > vehicles > escorted by vehicles with jammers to disable IEDs, and Embassies are > fortified > with several sets of concrete walls to prevent suicide bombers from gaining > access. That, however, did not prevent the suicide attack on the Indian > embassy > that killed two Indian diplomats and scores of others. > > But Hamid Karzai displays none of the tension and insecurity that goes > with > being the President of arguably one of the most difficult and insecure > states > in > the international system. Charismatic, charming, confident and remarkably > articulate in English, Karzai comes across as a leader genuinely wanting to > make > a difference. Although hurt by criticism over corruption in his government > and > by descriptions of him as being little more than the Mayor of Kabul, the > President of Afghanistan seems still genuinely committed to building an > Afghanistan at peace with itself and the outside world. With a remarkable > understanding of Afghan history, 51-year old, Hamid Karzai, an ethnic > Pashtun > of > the Popalzai clan of the Durrani tribe, has a great sense of pride in his > people > and his country. > > Hamid Karzai, In a free-wheeling interview with Amitabh Mattoo, Vice > Chancellor, University of Jammu, outlines his vision for Afghanistan and > the > Afghan people. > > Excerpts from the interview: > > Hamid Karzai: Welcome Vice-Chancellor! Are there any students from > Afghanistan in Jammu and Kashmir? > > Amitabh Matoo: Not at the moment. But while I was growing up in Srinagar, > we > had many Afghan students. > > Hamid Karzai: You know, Afghanistan had a period of very bad rule in > Kashmir. > Have you studied that? > > Amitabh Matoo: Yes, Sir! > > Hamid Karzai: Do the Kashmiris talk about it? > > Amitabh Matoo: They talk about Afghan rule, not in the most pleasant of > terms. > > Hamid Karzai: They don't? Where is Zalmay Rasool? Bring him? Let us defame > him. We have here my National Security Advisor, Zalmay Rasool. His great > grandfather was the Afghan Governor of Kashmir. A terrible Governor. He was > the > last Governor of Kashmir of Afghanistan. When he went there, people came to > greet him. As is the custom in this part of the world, they asked him > "what > can we do for you Mr. Governor or your Highness?" because he was his > Highness the King's brother or cousin. So, he said, "I would like to > help you by buying the wind from you", and the elders of Kashmir went out, > consulted each other. They came back and said, fine. They sold him the wind > and > he gave them a couple of thousands or lakhs of rupees and he bought the > wind. > Time went by. They were reaping their crops and separating the chaff from > the > wheat and he came and said "the wind is mine", and then he charged > them 25 percent of their annual products! Imagine. > > Amitabh Matoo: I didn't know this. > > Hamid Karzai: Oh, he became the richest man in Afghanistan. This man's name > was Azeem. Before him, there was Governor called Attah. Attah was a very > good > man. Azeem was the last Governor. So, the people of Kashmir wrote a poem in > Persian to Amir Dost Mohammed Khan, the king of Afghanistan. In that poem > they > kind of explained to him that this is not the right kind of governor: > > "Attai Mohammed ma burai, Bala-i-Azeeme har ma firastane". > > Attah means 'gift' - they say in the poem that you have taken away the > gift of Mohammed, meaning the Prophet Mohammed - from us and sent us a > 'great (Azeem)' evil in its place. When the king read this, he recalled > the Governor. With that also came the end of Afghan rule in Kashmir. > > Amitabh Matoo: I know, it was not a pleasant time. > > Hamid Karzai: And what is your own field? > > Amitabh Matoo: International Relations. I did my D.Phil from Oxford > University > and then I came back and taught at Jawaharlal Nehru University (JNU) for > some > years. > > Hamid Karzai: JNU, a great place! I like that institution a lot. India will > do > very well, if it continues to lay emphasis on intellectual excellence. > > And it must do more in the field of value education. You have embedded in > the > Indian culture and psyche, the depth of knowledge. And that is an immense > asset > in your hands in India. If you can continue to combine that, with modern > science > and with the humility and humbleness that Indian culture offers, that > combination will make India one of the greatest countries in the world in > the > coming years. I am always afraid, that the new generations of India will > misunderstand modernity; that they will interpret modernity as not wearing, > say, > a sari. The sari used here as a symbol for many things. > > Your depth of cultural beauty is the most important concern for humanity. > Going beyond the self, is one of the greatest assets of India. What Gandhi > ji > has done for you, in terms of the struggle for rights and going beyond > self. > Sometimes I am concerned. I hope I am wrong. What is your view? Do you > think > the > young in India know what they are doing? > > Amitabh Matoo: I think it is one of the great challenges. > > Hamid Karzai: It is? > > Amitabh Matoo: And what is happening is that occasionally we lose the > balance, > while being driven by, as you pointed out, the attractiveness of modernity. > Sometimes it is so seductive that you begin to lose your moorings, your > roots. > > Hamid Karzai: Attractiveness of modernity or modernity misdefined? > > Amitabh Matoo: I agree, modernity misdefined. But the greatness of India, > as > you pointed out will be that it will, hopefully, be able to strike and > sustain > the right balance. > > Hamid Karzai: To sustain it will take an amount of effort. But let us hope > that > it happens! > > Amitabh Matoo: How do you look back at your tenure as President, in terms > of > what you have been able to achieve and what you thought you could have > possibly > done better? > > > Hamid Karzai: When I look back at my past six years as the President of > Afghanistan, my greatest success is that I made Afghanistan home for all > Afghans. All Afghans feel comfortable here, those who were fighting with > each > other in the streets of this country, are now sitting side by side in the > Parliament, debating each other, voting for each other, making alliances, > breaking alliances. The other big achievement is in the return of Afghan > boys > and girls to education, I wish we had invited you yesterday, we forgot, to > the > commencement ceremony of 600 students from all around the country, who > graduated > from various faculties of Universities of Afghanistan. It was a great-great > day. > > I take pride also in the improvement in health services, of which > earlier we had almost none. I also brought back to this country the voice > of > the people. They can talk now; they have the freedom to express themselves, > freedom of expression, freedom of speech and a culture of debate in > society. > > I have exposed the government to criticism. The government is no longer > the > ruler. It is a body facing serious public scrutiny. Just a few minutes > before > you came, there was the German press with me. They grilled me on > corruption, > grilled me completely, and roasted me. Good! That is what I want. > > I brought back to this country, the public treasure. There is financial > procedure, norms, a code of conduct. There are no secret or hidden > accounts. > The > country has gone from 180 dollars per capita to two times higher. It is > nearly > 355 dollars now. The legitimate GDP has doubled. > > Afghanistan has found its place back in the rest of the world. Its flag is > flying all around the world. Its presence is all around the world. There is > no > venue in which Afghanistan is not present. > > Afghanistan has built more roads in the past 5-6 years then it has ever > built > in its life. Afghans spend more than they did even before. Of course, all > of > this is due to the help of the international community. And, most > importantly, > Afghanistan was removed from being a surrogate in this part of world to > this or > that country. Its identity, its independence is no longer as threatened. > > Amitabh Matoo: And the failures? The problems? > > Hamid Karzai: Afghanistan has lots of problems. Poppy and the opium trade, > which will not go away in spite of all my efforts for another 10-15 years. > We > have to work together: our society and the international community to deal > with > this huge problem. Much of the poppy cultivation is driven by desperation. > So, > desperation has to go away for people to resort to legitimate forms of > agriculture. > > Afghanistan still has a very weak capacity in administration. It doesn't > have the tools, the human capital to deliver the goods to its people. And, > of > course, what makes most sad is the number of Afghan lives that we have lost > in > the form of the Taliban and in the form of those fighting against the > Taliban > from Afghanistan. So, the lack of complete security for the Afghan people > is > one > of my greatest sorrows and perhaps my greatest failure. Though the country > on > the whole has seen a lot of stability and peace, but even one home feeling > unsafe is equal to the whole country feeling unsafe. > > Amitabh Matoo: Regarding India, you talked about its contribution in > education. I talked to a group of Afghan students and they said that the > American University may set-up a campus in Kabul. Would the Afghan > Government > be > open to Jammu University setting up a campus in Kabul? Or a public-private > partnership in education? > > Hamid Karzai: Absolutely! We want investment in education from Indian > public > and private players. As soon as possible, in any numbers as you like. You > are > already too late. Hurry up! Hurry up! This is one of the best services that > you > can offer the Afghan people. Also, we would encourage investment in health, > in > Information Technology, in infrastructure building and Agriculture. > > Amitabh Matoo: In terms of the region, now that Afghanistan is a part of > SAARC > how do you view the process of regional integration? And what about > Pakistan? > You know there is concern within India about Pakistan being a spoiler. > > Hamid Karzai: Well, this is a very important issue, for Afghanistan, for > Pakistan and for India. Wisdom would not lead us in any other direction but > in > the direction of openness and co-operation. If we continue to have > blockages > for > transit and transport, in exchanges of trade and commerce, we are not > hurting > the other countries, we are hurting ourselves. So, this is not only a > policy, > this is a human wish for the next generations of the countries of the > world, of > this region, especially the three countries. If we want to live in > prosperity, > we have to open up, completely separating politics from it. I would very > much > recommend an open road system, open exchanges of goods, of industry, of > talents. > Eventually this is going to happen, it will be better if it happens > sooner. > > Pakistan should give access to India to move to Central Asia. India should > give full access to Pakistan to move to East Asia. India must recognize > Pakistan's importance and Pakistan must recognize India's importance. > Afghanistan will be happy to be engaged with both. > > Amitabh Matoo: The issue of trade, as you said, should be divorced from > politics but unfortunately given the history of India- Pakistan relations > that's not always been so. We hope that this will change. I was in Pakistan > just after the election and with the Awami National Party winning power in > the > North Western Frontier Province (NWFP), the new leadership is thinking of > talking to the local Taliban and reviving the spirit of Pashtoonwali – the > traditional cultural and social ethos and code of honour of the Pashtuns - > as > a way of combating extremism. You have often talked about talking to > sections > of > Taliban? Do you think that this is possible? Will it lead anywhere? > > Hamid Karzai: Yes! First of all, the victory of ANP in the elections of > North-West Frontier Provinces proved that given the opportunity, all people > will > vote for common sense and moderation. And the people of North-Western > Frontier > Province proved this in a very clear voice, by voting for a moderate, > life-oriented representation. So the propaganda that the Pashtoons were > extremists or harboured extremists was proven wrong by the votes that the > Pashtoon cast in favour of ANP. Indeed, the Pashtoons, they were victims of > extremism and terrorism. As soon as they got the opportunity, they rejected > extremism and terrorism. They wanted a moderate representation, giving them > hope > for the future. > > ANP's fight against extremism is clear. They do not want to negotiate > with those foreign extremists who found a place, a sanctuary, in the > Pashtoon > lands. They want them removed, which is good. But they want to talk to > fellow > Pashtoons, to their fellow men to find ways of freeing them from the grips > of > extremism. I would entirely support them. So, fight the extremist radicals > with > guns, liberate the rest. > > Amitabh Matoo: Would you see this happening even in Afghanistan? > > Hamid Karzai: Afghanistan has been saying this for a long time. We want to > talk > and bring back to our country those who are driven out from Afghanistan by > fear > or consigned to bad treatment by us or by the earlier Afghan Government or > the > coalition. But we will not allow extremism, we will continue to fight the > Al-Qaida and terrorist networks or those who are associated with them. And > those > who are driven out because fear or ignorance must be given a chance to come > back. > > Amitabh Matoo: So, do you think the legacy of someone like Badshah Khan, > the > Frontier Gandhi, can be mainstreamed within the Pashtoons? > > Hamid Karzai: Immensely, immensely, his call for non-violence is a major > issue > today, a major issue today. And for the Pashtoons, Badshah Khan, a man like > that, with a vision like that is a source of immense inspiration! At a time > like > today when there is so much violence inflicted upon people, so much > suffering, > destruction, people being driven away from homes, that vision of Badshah > Khan > is > the best service to the cause of > > Amitabh Matoo: I am sure you are aware of the catch-22 nature of the > region's relationship with the United States. On the one hand, some feel > that there is a genuine need for the presence and influence of the US and > international community, especially here, to combat terrorism. And, yet, on > the > other, there seems to be growing anti-Americanism all over the region. > > Hamid Karzai: Afghanistan is, as a nation, very-very grateful to the United > States of America for liberating us. We were an occupied country, almost > entirely, six years ago and the United States and the rest of the world > helped > us liberate ourselves. Not only that, the United States came to reconstruct > our > country. All the comforts, all the signs of reconstruction in Afghanistan > are > mostly done with the help of the United States and then of course, other > countries. In Afghanistan, there is no anti-Americanism, fortunately. We > were > grateful, even in the past, to America, because we were together fighting > the > Soviet army. Afghanistan's natural tendencies have always been pro- > capitalism, free enterprise, and private ownership. We see the US as a God > loving and God fearing country generally. I don't know why, but I have not > heard of sections of India being anti-American. > > Amitabh Matoo: In India to a limited extent, but in Pakistan > anti-Americanism seems to be very intense > > Hamid Karzai: Yes, Pakistan. I heard a lot about it. But, I don't know > whether that's true or it is only in the media, or driven by certain > interests. But I can only speak for Afghanistan and I can speak only for > the > Afghan people. There is overwhelming support for the United States and for > the > United States presence in Afghanistan. And there is growing friendship > between > India and the United States. We encourage that, very much. > > Amitabh Matoo: Just before I came to Kabul, the Indian media carried a > story > which said that the Afghan Government has stopped some Indian soap operas > and > there was some criticism in the media. > > Hamid Karzai: We have not stopped that, there was the Clergy Council of > Afghanistan, the religious ulema. They had a complaint with not only > Indian > dramas but also Pakistani dramas and some other items in the Afghan media > that > they did not like from the religious point of view, not being in tone with > the > day to day life of people. The commission was set up to correct parts of > it, > not > to remove it. The Afghan people love watching those dramas. > > Amitabh Matoo: But this censorship is in no ways signaling a return to the > days > of the Taliban regime? > > Hamid Karzai: Not at all. Not at all. Not at all. Definitely, not, > Definitely, > not, Definitely, not. We were always an extremely friendly society in > Afghanistan, towards India. Even when I was growing up. Among the youth > here > there is as much knowledge about India and Indian movies as we had when we > were > that age and even more. > > Amitabh Matoo: Even the official photographer said that he had learnt > Hindi > from the films. > > Hamid Karzai: Of course, sure, they have all done that, absolutely. > > Amitabh Matoo: When you were young did you see Indian movies? > > Hamid Karzai: Of course, in our times the films were better. I don't know > if I can say that. The new directors will get mad at us! > > Amitabh Matoo: The expatriate Afghan writer Khalid Husseini's , A > Thousand Splendid Suns was recently published. It has become very popular, > but > it has also raised concerns about the place and role of Afghan women. What > kind of role do you see for women in Afghanistan? > > Hamid Karzai: It is an evolving and improving and developing role, but I > was > very happy to see so many of Afghan girls graduating recently. Almost half > were > girls. > > Almost half were girls, especially in the Medical Sciences. They are not > many > in Engineering, just a few of them. Most of them from Medical Sciences, a > lot > of > them. They are growing happily. But, Afghanistan has a long way to travel, > a > long way to travel. We have to be realistic about it and keep trying, > very-very > hard. The best service for Afghan women, the best help to them to function > better, is to educate them and then to educate them better. There is no > shortcut, unfortunately. > > Amitabh Matoo: How do you see yourself? All these years as President, are > you a > happier person, a most satisfied person or a more stressed person? > > Hamid Karzai: In thoughts, I am very happy. And I was very happy > yesterday, > in giving the Certificates and Diplomas to all the graduates, And I am > happy > when I have to inaugurate a road, to inaugurate a school, to see people > getting > education and seeing young Afghan talent emerging and to see democracy > taking > roots in Afghanistan, institutional structures taking roots in Afghanistan > and > empowerment of the judiciary, the freedom of the press. And it causes me > pain, > personally, I feel hurt when the press criticizes me unfairly. And of > course, I > have immense moments of anguish and anger when the Afghans suffer in > bomb-blasts, in acts of terrorism. When our villages are bombed, our people > suffer. This makes me very angry. > > Amitabh Matoo: We hope that you will be elected for your next tenure. But, > what > would be your principle agenda for the next term? > > Hamid Karzai: To continue to rebuild Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, the > agenda is > very broad. It is not like in other countries, it is not like in India, > where > you have certain things and you want to add other things. In Afghanistan, > we > have to move in all the directions, at the same time. Keep building > schools, > keep building roads, keep adding quantity and quality to it. In your part > of > the > world, it is sometimes quantity. But in terms of the achievements, you keep > adding to the quality that you have. In Afghanistan, we must work on > fronts, > quantity and quality. > > Better roads, more roads. More schools, better schools. More hospitals, > better hospitals. More teachers, better teachers. More wages, higher wages. > So, > strengthening of the institutions and having ability to abide by the law, > improving the rule of law and working on finishing this culture of > impurity, > where offenders go unpunished. > > Amitabh Matoo: And combating corruption. > > Hamid Karzai: And combating corruption and combating extremism It is a very > full house of activity. > > Amitabh Matoo: Excellency, how do you de-stress yourself? I mean as a > Vice-Chancellor, I feel stressed at the end of the day. but yours' is the > most challenging job perhaps in the whole world.\ > > Hamid Karzai: I think for me now, the best stress buster is the sight of my > son, when I go to him. He is fourteen months old now, just beginning to > learn > words. Each day go to see him in the evening, he has picked up a new word. > This > morning he learnt 'Kela'. > > Amitabh Matoo: What is his name? > > Hamid Karzai: Mirwais. Mirwais is one of the greatest Afghan personalities. > He > was the person who began the modern concept of loya jirga, when Afghanistan > had > the Iranian ruler, actually Georgian. He was from Georgia named 'Gurgan > Khan' ruling in Kandhar. There began a movement of the Afghan people > through > consultations. What you call in your country the 'Panchayat System'. > > Through the Panchayat, he began a system of consultations that eventually > liberated Afghanistan. Not through military means, through civilian action > and > consultation. A bright man! Of course, his sons created then an empire > towards > the west, towards Iran, right up to Isfahan and that was a short lived one. > > Amitabh Matoo: Thank you very much, Excellency! > > Hamid Karzai: Welcome, Vice-Chancellor, welcome. > > (The interview was originally published in India and Global Affairs > Magazine) > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > __________________________________________________________ > Not happy with your email address?. > Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now > at > Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Not happy with your email address?. > Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now > at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 30 20:44:26 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview In-Reply-To: <47e122a70807300704y5599ae2sd4b43e018aaf0206@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <210690.76056.qm@web57210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Inder Salim   Your comments are better addressed to Murtaza Shibli. He brought in the 'brutality scale' and the 'scale of brutality' of different personalities. You did not notice but I refused to enter into that discussion.   Similarly with you, I will not enter into a discussion about particular individuals selectively chosen for commenting upon.   I must also admit that I am extremely limited in my capabilities of being able to have a meaningful discussion with many individuals. I find it impossible to express myself in a "mutiple tracks of thought" environment. I envy those who can.   The Godard quote made absolutely no sense to me. My limitation again.   Kshmendra   PS: You sign off with "with love". I wish I could get the slightest feel of it in your words. Must yet again be my limitation.     --- On Wed, 7/30/08, inder salim wrote: From: inder salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Wednesday, July 30, 2008, 7:34 PM Dear Sshmendra, To exercise brutality is part of power structure, we all know, it is often implict, but we tend to discuss its explicty form only, perhpas, because that suits us to take sides easily, but we are likely to fall in the trap.... so we all need to watch our words... YOU will agree with me that mr. Jagmohan, ex governver, is an RSS man.... i wonder why on earth he banned sheep slaughter in kashmir on ashtamis. that was the most unfortunate provocation , and Nisar Qazi in anantnag responded appropriately by slaying sheeps openly on ashtamis, and the stupid governer sahib could not do anything but watch...... then, Why on earth Jagmohan ordered firing on the masses in 1990 for which he is criticized by each and every kashmiri, imagine if a person like mAHATMA gANdhi was there incharge, would he order such a firing on innocent gathering....of whatever nature... and if we dismiss gandhi, and use him only on currency notes, then it is the same case of Jab chaaha nazron mein liya, aur jab chaaha nazarandaaz kiya. Ye kaisa zulm? (At times you choose to pay heed to me and at times you choose to ignore me. Why this cruelty? although i dont agree with the popular theory that jagmohan masterminded the exodus of kashmiri pandits, but i would like to see him tried in international court of justice for ordering such a massacre.... and immmediately after that,we need to talk about what india has lost in kashmir , a permenant loss of face, and gained what? the name of a opressor... coming back to interview, and the brutal afgan rule in kashmir... i remember, #the line by JL Godard, the french film maker.... THE CROSS OF CHRISTIANS IS ON THE SHOULDERS OF JEWS, , AND THE CROSS OF JEWS IS ON THE SHOULDERS OF PALESTENINES. i truly wish, that the issue of brutality on innocent masses is talked without prejudice....that way we can even talk about the brutality against kashmiri pandits in kashmir 1990, or any other kind of violence in the world.... after all what we finally do with our imposed identieis...they finally dissolve, and what is lasting in this world, something which gandhi believed in,,, ... i am not a absolute admirer of gandhi , but what he achieved will pass the test of time, and what jagmohan ad the afgan ruler did in kashmir will not, ... with love inder salim On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 6:23 PM, Kashmir Affairs wrote: > Kshmendra, > sorry don't have time for discussions rite now.... > can't promise but hope to further elaborate at some time in future. > cheers, > murtaza > > --- On Wed, 30/7/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview > To: , kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk > Date: Wednesday, 30 July, 2008, 11:55 AM > > Shibli Sahib > > Jab chaaha nazron mein liya, aur jab chaaha nazarandaaz kiya. Ye kaisa > zulm? (At times you choose to pay heed to me and at times you choose to > ignore me. Why this cruelty? > > What happened to my enquiries about the dimensions of "Open Borders / Joint > Control of Kashmir"? > > I will not provide my list of or ratings for those who deserve to be > included in the 'brutality scale', but yes, it is an interesting interview > of Karzai. > > Take care > > Kshmendra > > --- On Wed, 7/30/08, Kashmir Affairs wrote: > > From: Kashmir Affairs > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Wednesday, July 30, 2008, 3:15 PM > > wonderful. Thanks for sharing this. > Afghan rule is one of the darkest rules in Kashmir. First being the Sikh > rule. > Kakar Khan, the Afghan governor was the most brutal - he is even said to > have > bit ear of a corpse. Jagmohan Malhotra - the governor in 1990s was likened > with > Kakar Khan by the Kashmiri newspapers for his brutality. > > Murtaza Shibli > > > --- On Wed, 30/7/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview > To: "sarai list" > Date: Wednesday, 30 July, 2008, 9:58 AM > > This interview has apparently been published in 'Sakaal IGA' (India and > Global Affairs) magazine http://www.igamag.com/milestones.html > > I received it titled with "Afghanistan had a period of very bad rule in > Kashmir" quote of Karzai. > > Kshmendra > > > > Afghanistan had a period of very bad rule in Kashmir > > (The interview was originally published in India and Global Affairs > Magazine) > > There are few leaders in the world that that have encountered threats to > their > life almost every single day of their tenure. Even in the recent past, the > President of Afghanistan, Hamid Karzai, has survived at least four > serious > assassination attempts and scores of other plots that were hatched by all > those > opposed to his vision of building a 'new' Afghanistan. Not surprisingly > then, gaining entry to his fortified residence in Kabul is a visitor's > nightmare. Not even a pencil is allowed in, as a combination of mechanical, > human and canine interceptors attempt to secure the President. Journalists > are > treated with exceptional suspicion after an Al Qaeda suicide squad, posing > as a > television crew, assassinated Ahmad Shah Massoud, described today as " the > national hero of Afghanistan", two days before 9/11. > > The only recent change in the security infrastructure is the gradual > transition from the ubiquitous US Marines in the Presidential Palace to > more > Afghan guards. On the streets of Kabul, the sense of a country and a city > under > siege is no less. Heads of missions routinely travel in bulletproof > vehicles > escorted by vehicles with jammers to disable IEDs, and Embassies are > fortified > with several sets of concrete walls to prevent suicide bombers from gaining > access. That, however, did not prevent the suicide attack on the Indian > embassy > that killed two Indian diplomats and scores of others. > > But Hamid Karzai displays none of the tension and insecurity that goes > with > being the President of arguably one of the most difficult and insecure > states > in > the international system. Charismatic, charming, confident and remarkably > articulate in English, Karzai comes across as a leader genuinely wanting to > make > a difference. Although hurt by criticism over corruption in his government > and > by descriptions of him as being little more than the Mayor of Kabul, the > President of Afghanistan seems still genuinely committed to building an > Afghanistan at peace with itself and the outside world. With a remarkable > understanding of Afghan history, 51-year old, Hamid Karzai, an ethnic > Pashtun > of > the Popalzai clan of the Durrani tribe, has a great sense of pride in his > people > and his country. > > Hamid Karzai, In a free-wheeling interview with Amitabh Mattoo, Vice > Chancellor, University of Jammu, outlines his vision for Afghanistan and > the > Afghan people. > > Excerpts from the interview: > > Hamid Karzai: Welcome Vice-Chancellor! Are there any students from > Afghanistan in Jammu and Kashmir? > > Amitabh Matoo: Not at the moment. But while I was growing up in Srinagar, > we > had many Afghan students. > > Hamid Karzai: You know, Afghanistan had a period of very bad rule in > Kashmir. > Have you studied that? > > Amitabh Matoo: Yes, Sir! > > Hamid Karzai: Do the Kashmiris talk about it? > > Amitabh Matoo: They talk about Afghan rule, not in the most pleasant of > terms. > > Hamid Karzai: They don't? Where is Zalmay Rasool? Bring him? Let us defame > him. We have here my National Security Advisor, Zalmay Rasool. His great > grandfather was the Afghan Governor of Kashmir. A terrible Governor. He was > the > last Governor of Kashmir of Afghanistan. When he went there, people came to > greet him. As is the custom in this part of the world, they asked him > "what > can we do for you Mr. Governor or your Highness?" because he was his > Highness the King's brother or cousin. So, he said, "I would like to > help you by buying the wind from you", and the elders of Kashmir went out, > consulted each other. They came back and said, fine. They sold him the wind > and > he gave them a couple of thousands or lakhs of rupees and he bought the > wind. > Time went by. They were reaping their crops and separating the chaff from > the > wheat and he came and said "the wind is mine", and then he charged > them 25 percent of their annual products! Imagine. > > Amitabh Matoo: I didn't know this. > > Hamid Karzai: Oh, he became the richest man in Afghanistan. This man's name > was Azeem. Before him, there was Governor called Attah. Attah was a very > good > man. Azeem was the last Governor. So, the people of Kashmir wrote a poem in > Persian to Amir Dost Mohammed Khan, the king of Afghanistan. In that poem > they > kind of explained to him that this is not the right kind of governor: > > "Attai Mohammed ma burai, Bala-i-Azeeme har ma firastane". > > Attah means 'gift' - they say in the poem that you have taken away the > gift of Mohammed, meaning the Prophet Mohammed - from us and sent us a > 'great (Azeem)' evil in its place. When the king read this, he recalled > the Governor. With that also came the end of Afghan rule in Kashmir. > > Amitabh Matoo: I know, it was not a pleasant time. > > Hamid Karzai: And what is your own field? > > Amitabh Matoo: International Relations. I did my D.Phil from Oxford > University > and then I came back and taught at Jawaharlal Nehru University (JNU) for > some > years. > > Hamid Karzai: JNU, a great place! I like that institution a lot. India will > do > very well, if it continues to lay emphasis on intellectual excellence. > > And it must do more in the field of value education. You have embedded in > the > Indian culture and psyche, the depth of knowledge. And that is an immense > asset > in your hands in India. If you can continue to combine that, with modern > science > and with the humility and humbleness that Indian culture offers, that > combination will make India one of the greatest countries in the world in > the > coming years. I am always afraid, that the new generations of India will > misunderstand modernity; that they will interpret modernity as not wearing, > say, > a sari. The sari used here as a symbol for many things. > > Your depth of cultural beauty is the most important concern for humanity. > Going beyond the self, is one of the greatest assets of India. What Gandhi > ji > has done for you, in terms of the struggle for rights and going beyond > self. > Sometimes I am concerned. I hope I am wrong. What is your view? Do you > think > the > young in India know what they are doing? > > Amitabh Matoo: I think it is one of the great challenges. > > Hamid Karzai: It is? > > Amitabh Matoo: And what is happening is that occasionally we lose the > balance, > while being driven by, as you pointed out, the attractiveness of modernity. > Sometimes it is so seductive that you begin to lose your moorings, your > roots. > > Hamid Karzai: Attractiveness of modernity or modernity misdefined? > > Amitabh Matoo: I agree, modernity misdefined. But the greatness of India, > as > you pointed out will be that it will, hopefully, be able to strike and > sustain > the right balance. > > Hamid Karzai: To sustain it will take an amount of effort. But let us hope > that > it happens! > > Amitabh Matoo: How do you look back at your tenure as President, in terms > of > what you have been able to achieve and what you thought you could have > possibly > done better? > > > Hamid Karzai: When I look back at my past six years as the President of > Afghanistan, my greatest success is that I made Afghanistan home for all > Afghans. All Afghans feel comfortable here, those who were fighting with > each > other in the streets of this country, are now sitting side by side in the > Parliament, debating each other, voting for each other, making alliances, > breaking alliances. The other big achievement is in the return of Afghan > boys > and girls to education, I wish we had invited you yesterday, we forgot, to > the > commencement ceremony of 600 students from all around the country, who > graduated > from various faculties of Universities of Afghanistan. It was a great-great > day. > > I take pride also in the improvement in health services, of which > earlier we had almost none. I also brought back to this country the voice > of > the people. They can talk now; they have the freedom to express themselves, > freedom of expression, freedom of speech and a culture of debate in > society. > > I have exposed the government to criticism. The government is no longer > the > ruler. It is a body facing serious public scrutiny. Just a few minutes > before > you came, there was the German press with me. They grilled me on > corruption, > grilled me completely, and roasted me. Good! That is what I want. > > I brought back to this country, the public treasure. There is financial > procedure, norms, a code of conduct. There are no secret or hidden > accounts. > The > country has gone from 180 dollars per capita to two times higher. It is > nearly > 355 dollars now. The legitimate GDP has doubled. > > Afghanistan has found its place back in the rest of the world. Its flag is > flying all around the world. Its presence is all around the world. There is > no > venue in which Afghanistan is not present. > > Afghanistan has built more roads in the past 5-6 years then it has ever > built > in its life. Afghans spend more than they did even before. Of course, all > of > this is due to the help of the international community. And, most > importantly, > Afghanistan was removed from being a surrogate in this part of world to > this or > that country. Its identity, its independence is no longer as threatened. > > Amitabh Matoo: And the failures? The problems? > > Hamid Karzai: Afghanistan has lots of problems. Poppy and the opium trade, > which will not go away in spite of all my efforts for another 10-15 years. > We > have to work together: our society and the international community to deal > with > this huge problem. Much of the poppy cultivation is driven by desperation. > So, > desperation has to go away for people to resort to legitimate forms of > agriculture. > > Afghanistan still has a very weak capacity in administration. It doesn't > have the tools, the human capital to deliver the goods to its people. And, > of > course, what makes most sad is the number of Afghan lives that we have lost > in > the form of the Taliban and in the form of those fighting against the > Taliban > from Afghanistan. So, the lack of complete security for the Afghan people > is > one > of my greatest sorrows and perhaps my greatest failure. Though the country > on > the whole has seen a lot of stability and peace, but even one home feeling > unsafe is equal to the whole country feeling unsafe. > > Amitabh Matoo: Regarding India, you talked about its contribution in > education. I talked to a group of Afghan students and they said that the > American University may set-up a campus in Kabul. Would the Afghan > Government > be > open to Jammu University setting up a campus in Kabul? Or a public-private > partnership in education? > > Hamid Karzai: Absolutely! We want investment in education from Indian > public > and private players. As soon as possible, in any numbers as you like. You > are > already too late. Hurry up! Hurry up! This is one of the best services that > you > can offer the Afghan people. Also, we would encourage investment in health, > in > Information Technology, in infrastructure building and Agriculture. > > Amitabh Matoo: In terms of the region, now that Afghanistan is a part of > SAARC > how do you view the process of regional integration? And what about > Pakistan? > You know there is concern within India about Pakistan being a spoiler. > > Hamid Karzai: Well, this is a very important issue, for Afghanistan, for > Pakistan and for India. Wisdom would not lead us in any other direction but > in > the direction of openness and co-operation. If we continue to have > blockages > for > transit and transport, in exchanges of trade and commerce, we are not > hurting > the other countries, we are hurting ourselves. So, this is not only a > policy, > this is a human wish for the next generations of the countries of the > world, of > this region, especially the three countries. If we want to live in > prosperity, > we have to open up, completely separating politics from it. I would very > much > recommend an open road system, open exchanges of goods, of industry, of > talents. > Eventually this is going to happen, it will be better if it happens > sooner. > > Pakistan should give access to India to move to Central Asia. India should > give full access to Pakistan to move to East Asia. India must recognize > Pakistan's importance and Pakistan must recognize India's importance. > Afghanistan will be happy to be engaged with both. > > Amitabh Matoo: The issue of trade, as you said, should be divorced from > politics but unfortunately given the history of India- Pakistan relations > that's not always been so. We hope that this will change. I was in Pakistan > just after the election and with the Awami National Party winning power in > the > North Western Frontier Province (NWFP), the new leadership is thinking of > talking to the local Taliban and reviving the spirit of Pashtoonwali – the > traditional cultural and social ethos and code of honour of the Pashtuns - > as > a way of combating extremism. You have often talked about talking to > sections > of > Taliban? Do you think that this is possible? Will it lead anywhere? > > Hamid Karzai: Yes! First of all, the victory of ANP in the elections of > North-West Frontier Provinces proved that given the opportunity, all people > will > vote for common sense and moderation. And the people of North-Western > Frontier > Province proved this in a very clear voice, by voting for a moderate, > life-oriented representation. So the propaganda that the Pashtoons were > extremists or harboured extremists was proven wrong by the votes that the > Pashtoon cast in favour of ANP. Indeed, the Pashtoons, they were victims of > extremism and terrorism. As soon as they got the opportunity, they rejected > extremism and terrorism. They wanted a moderate representation, giving them > hope > for the future. > > ANP's fight against extremism is clear. They do not want to negotiate > with those foreign extremists who found a place, a sanctuary, in the > Pashtoon > lands. They want them removed, which is good. But they want to talk to > fellow > Pashtoons, to their fellow men to find ways of freeing them from the grips > of > extremism. I would entirely support them. So, fight the extremist radicals > with > guns, liberate the rest. > > Amitabh Matoo: Would you see this happening even in Afghanistan? > > Hamid Karzai: Afghanistan has been saying this for a long time. We want to > talk > and bring back to our country those who are driven out from Afghanistan by > fear > or consigned to bad treatment by us or by the earlier Afghan Government or > the > coalition. But we will not allow extremism, we will continue to fight the > Al-Qaida and terrorist networks or those who are associated with them. And > those > who are driven out because fear or ignorance must be given a chance to come > back. > > Amitabh Matoo: So, do you think the legacy of someone like Badshah Khan, > the > Frontier Gandhi, can be mainstreamed within the Pashtoons? > > Hamid Karzai: Immensely, immensely, his call for non-violence is a major > issue > today, a major issue today. And for the Pashtoons, Badshah Khan, a man like > that, with a vision like that is a source of immense inspiration! At a time > like > today when there is so much violence inflicted upon people, so much > suffering, > destruction, people being driven away from homes, that vision of Badshah > Khan > is > the best service to the cause of > > Amitabh Matoo: I am sure you are aware of the catch-22 nature of the > region's relationship with the United States. On the one hand, some feel > that there is a genuine need for the presence and influence of the US and > international community, especially here, to combat terrorism. And, yet, on > the > other, there seems to be growing anti-Americanism all over the region. > > Hamid Karzai: Afghanistan is, as a nation, very-very grateful to the United > States of America for liberating us. We were an occupied country, almost > entirely, six years ago and the United States and the rest of the world > helped > us liberate ourselves. Not only that, the United States came to reconstruct > our > country. All the comforts, all the signs of reconstruction in Afghanistan > are > mostly done with the help of the United States and then of course, other > countries. In Afghanistan, there is no anti-Americanism, fortunately. We > were > grateful, even in the past, to America, because we were together fighting > the > Soviet army. Afghanistan's natural tendencies have always been pro- > capitalism, free enterprise, and private ownership. We see the US as a God > loving and God fearing country generally. I don't know why, but I have not > heard of sections of India being anti-American. > > Amitabh Matoo: In India to a limited extent, but in Pakistan > anti-Americanism seems to be very intense > > Hamid Karzai: Yes, Pakistan. I heard a lot about it. But, I don't know > whether that's true or it is only in the media, or driven by certain > interests. But I can only speak for Afghanistan and I can speak only for > the > Afghan people. There is overwhelming support for the United States and for > the > United States presence in Afghanistan. And there is growing friendship > between > India and the United States. We encourage that, very much. > > Amitabh Matoo: Just before I came to Kabul, the Indian media carried a > story > which said that the Afghan Government has stopped some Indian soap operas > and > there was some criticism in the media. > > Hamid Karzai: We have not stopped that, there was the Clergy Council of > Afghanistan, the religious ulema. They had a complaint with not only > Indian > dramas but also Pakistani dramas and some other items in the Afghan media > that > they did not like from the religious point of view, not being in tone with > the > day to day life of people. The commission was set up to correct parts of > it, > not > to remove it. The Afghan people love watching those dramas. > > Amitabh Matoo: But this censorship is in no ways signaling a return to the > days > of the Taliban regime? > > Hamid Karzai: Not at all. Not at all. Not at all. Definitely, not, > Definitely, > not, Definitely, not. We were always an extremely friendly society in > Afghanistan, towards India. Even when I was growing up. Among the youth > here > there is as much knowledge about India and Indian movies as we had when we > were > that age and even more. > > Amitabh Matoo: Even the official photographer said that he had learnt > Hindi > from the films. > > Hamid Karzai: Of course, sure, they have all done that, absolutely. > > Amitabh Matoo: When you were young did you see Indian movies? > > Hamid Karzai: Of course, in our times the films were better. I don't know > if I can say that. The new directors will get mad at us! > > Amitabh Matoo: The expatriate Afghan writer Khalid Husseini's , A > Thousand Splendid Suns was recently published. It has become very popular, > but > it has also raised concerns about the place and role of Afghan women. What > kind of role do you see for women in Afghanistan? > > Hamid Karzai: It is an evolving and improving and developing role, but I > was > very happy to see so many of Afghan girls graduating recently. Almost half > were > girls. > > Almost half were girls, especially in the Medical Sciences. They are not > many > in Engineering, just a few of them. Most of them from Medical Sciences, a > lot > of > them. They are growing happily. But, Afghanistan has a long way to travel, > a > long way to travel. We have to be realistic about it and keep trying, > very-very > hard. The best service for Afghan women, the best help to them to function > better, is to educate them and then to educate them better. There is no > shortcut, unfortunately. > > Amitabh Matoo: How do you see yourself? All these years as President, are > you a > happier person, a most satisfied person or a more stressed person? > > Hamid Karzai: In thoughts, I am very happy. And I was very happy > yesterday, > in giving the Certificates and Diplomas to all the graduates, And I am > happy > when I have to inaugurate a road, to inaugurate a school, to see people > getting > education and seeing young Afghan talent emerging and to see democracy > taking > roots in Afghanistan, institutional structures taking roots in Afghanistan > and > empowerment of the judiciary, the freedom of the press. And it causes me > pain, > personally, I feel hurt when the press criticizes me unfairly. And of > course, I > have immense moments of anguish and anger when the Afghans suffer in > bomb-blasts, in acts of terrorism. When our villages are bombed, our people > suffer. This makes me very angry. > > Amitabh Matoo: We hope that you will be elected for your next tenure. But, > what > would be your principle agenda for the next term? > > Hamid Karzai: To continue to rebuild Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, the > agenda is > very broad. It is not like in other countries, it is not like in India, > where > you have certain things and you want to add other things. In Afghanistan, > we > have to move in all the directions, at the same time. Keep building > schools, > keep building roads, keep adding quantity and quality to it. In your part > of > the > world, it is sometimes quantity. But in terms of the achievements, you keep > adding to the quality that you have. In Afghanistan, we must work on > fronts, > quantity and quality. > > Better roads, more roads. More schools, better schools. More hospitals, > better hospitals. More teachers, better teachers. More wages, higher wages. > So, > strengthening of the institutions and having ability to abide by the law, > improving the rule of law and working on finishing this culture of > impurity, > where offenders go unpunished. > > Amitabh Matoo: And combating corruption. > > Hamid Karzai: And combating corruption and combating extremism It is a very > full house of activity. > > Amitabh Matoo: Excellency, how do you de-stress yourself? I mean as a > Vice-Chancellor, I feel stressed at the end of the day. but yours' is the > most challenging job perhaps in the whole world.\ > > Hamid Karzai: I think for me now, the best stress buster is the sight of my > son, when I go to him. He is fourteen months old now, just beginning to > learn > words. Each day go to see him in the evening, he has picked up a new word. > This > morning he learnt 'Kela'. > > Amitabh Matoo: What is his name? > > Hamid Karzai: Mirwais. Mirwais is one of the greatest Afghan personalities. > He > was the person who began the modern concept of loya jirga, when Afghanistan > had > the Iranian ruler, actually Georgian. He was from Georgia named 'Gurgan > Khan' ruling in Kandhar. There began a movement of the Afghan people > through > consultations. What you call in your country the 'Panchayat System'. > > Through the Panchayat, he began a system of consultations that eventually > liberated Afghanistan. Not through military means, through civilian action > and > consultation. A bright man! Of course, his sons created then an empire > towards > the west, towards Iran, right up to Isfahan and that was a short lived one. > > Amitabh Matoo: Thank you very much, Excellency! > > Hamid Karzai: Welcome, Vice-Chancellor, welcome. > > (The interview was originally published in India and Global Affairs > Magazine) > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > __________________________________________________________ > Not happy with your email address?. > Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now > at > Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Not happy with your email address?. > Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now > at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From logos.theword at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 21:55:43 2008 From: logos.theword at gmail.com (Logos Theatre) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 21:55:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Of art, morality, etc. Message-ID: <33bc2ee60807300925y1cbc4458j397aaefa69cbcd6d@mail.gmail.com> This is a question I'd like to pose to all arts practitioners on this list, with the hope that it will generate some meaningful discussion. A few days ago, I received a message on my facebook inbox from an acquaintance who works for the India Foundation for the Arts. Here is the message, which was sent to a group of people, most of whom are arts practitioners of some description or the other: *"The Theatre Infrastructure Cell at India Foundation for the Arts (IFA) is looking for a freelance researcher to lead a research project. Here is a brief description of the role: Position: Senior Researcher Location: Bangalore Project: A baseline study of theatre infrastructure across four states-Karnataka, Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu and Uttar Pradesh. In each state, three cities will be covered. We will be capturing information under the following areas through the study: • Growth and decline of groups and performances over the last ten years • The needs and problems faced by performance groups and festival organizers • The advantages and disadvantages of performance spaces in each city • The ways in which grantees of different Tata Trusts have tried to address some of the needs and issues of performance infrastructure The Senior Researcher will be responsible for leading the project, guiding and monitoring the team, analyzing the findings, and preparing the final reports and databases. He/she will have a team under him/her which will be responsible for data collection. Research design and tools will be overseen and guided by us. This is not a full-time position and the person can work flexitime from home. They will need to come in to the IFA office for meetings from time to time. Qualifications: Experience with guiding / conducting a social research project Ability to analyze quantitative and qualitative data Excellent writing and editing skills in English A basic understanding of theatre Project Duration: August 1 - October 15, 2008 If you know anyone who may be interested, please ask them to get in touch with Anindita Sengupta, Programme Executive (Theatre Infrastructure Cell), IFA. Email: anindita at indiaifa.org. ---------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------- India Foundation for the Arts (IFA) makes grants to individuals and organizations with the aim of filling important gaps in private and public assistance for culture and the arts in India. Our grant programmes variously respond to existing demand for assistance, provide opportunities for artists to explore untried processes and new connections in the arts, or address systemic issues in the field. IFA's grants support all forms of cultural expression, while accommodating work that falls outside specific domains of art, blurs disciplinary boundaries or anticipates new modes of artistic production and presentation.The Theatre Infrastructure Cell (TIC) was set up earlier this year with the support of the Navajbai Ratan Tata Trust to look at strengthening theatre infrastructure in the country. **http://www.indiaifa.org* " To this, I sent a reply (to everyone addressed in the original message) which was: *"Off topic, but this a part of this message related to a question I have been grappling with the last few days: How does an artist take money from the Tatas and yet retain a shred of self-respect and ethics? I happen to be from West Bengal, so I suppose the dillemma is stronger in my case, because I cannot speak of Singur on the one hand, and grovel with a begging bowl in front of Ratan Tata on the other. Not that I stand a ghost of a chance of ever getting a Tata grant - I don't 'belong' to that exalted circle of artistes with an E after all, nor am I a 'theatre activist' - just a mediocre chap trying to work with his own ideas of performance making. But in as much as theatre itself is an act of taking a stance, an act of principle that takes immense moral courage to execute, I wonder how an artist or an artiste could work with Tata money (or money from any organization funded by them) and yet be at peace with himself/herself? And does such 'art' have any integrity? Any moral leg to stand on?"* ** This was on July 23rd. Predictably, I received no response to my quarry, either from the original sender of the message or any of the others in the thread. Hence, as I said at the beginning, I'd now like to pose the same question to this group. As arts practitioners, (and assuming that any work of art, even the most apolitical one, is by definition a stand one takes), how do you reconcile yourselves (if you do) to asking for grants from the Tata Trust, or their underlings such as the IFA, knowing full well that the same corporate is responsible for untold human misery in Singur. Of course, this is only a case in point. IFA is supported by other entities with equally unenviable records, and there are other, similar organizations, though none that I know of profess to be the sole arbiter of what 'art' is as the IFA does. That's beside the point, but the essential question of the moral aspect of being an artist, especially one pursuing a non-populist form, in this age of the politics of grant-making, is hopefully relevant, and as an arts practitioner, I'd be interested in a few answers. Warm regards, Arka -- Logos Theatre In the beginning was the word No. 126, 3rd Main Road, Jayamahal Extension, Bangalore 560046 -------------------------------------------------------- If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all. Since no man has aught of what he leaves, what is't to leave betimes? Let be. From b_a_r_u_k at yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 01:21:37 2008 From: b_a_r_u_k at yahoo.com (Baruk S. Jacob) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Of art, morality, etc. In-Reply-To: <33bc2ee60807300925y1cbc4458j397aaefa69cbcd6d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <833215.24793.qm@web54202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> hey arka, read your mail with much interest-areas i have been thinking about too. my responses below, thanks for bringing this up! > In each state, three cities will be covered. We will be capturing > information under the following areas through the study: > > • Growth and decline of groups and performances over the last ten years > > • The needs and problems faced by performance groups and festival > organizers > > • The advantages and disadvantages of performance spaces in each city > > • The ways in which grantees of different Tata Trusts have tried to > address some of the needs and issues of performance infrastructure ~ i may be overly paranoid, but the line of questioning seems to be trying to get at two things: 1) document how the tatas have 'helped' cultural pursuit by providing infrastructure, and 2) how can the tatas gain more cultural mileage and brand goodwill among people (by providing more infrastructure). > Our grant programmes variously respond to existing demand for > assistance, provide opportunities for artists to explore untried > processes and new connections in the arts, or address systemic issues in > the field. ~ notice that the areas given support are 'processes' and 'systemic' issues in theatre? in other words, play safely academic. > The Theatre Infrastructure Cell(TIC) was set up earlier this year with > the support of the Navajbai Ratan Tata Trust to look at strengthening > theatre infrastructure in the country. ~ as long as you stick to experiments in technicalities, and do not offend the hand that feeds you. > in as much as theatre itself is an act of taking a stance, > an act of principle that takes immense moral courage to execute, I > wonder how an artist or an artiste could work with Tata money (or money > from any organization funded by them) and yet be at peace with > himself/herself? ~ one can take a principled stance on either side of the fence. while i personally would find it awfully difficult to work off a tata grant, it does not therefore follow that all artist(e)s would therefore have the same difficulty. > does such 'art' have any integrity? Any moral leg to stand on?"* ~ i tend to take the word 'integrity' at dictionary value-the fact of one's actions being integrated with one's beliefs. by that definition, any art that is true to the artist's beliefs has integrity. ~ to sum up, i completely share in your horror of tata's actions at singur, and am equally disgusted at the way they try to play the role of the old kings, patronising the arts with ill-gotten money. having said that, i cannot impose the moral standard i hold for myself on other artists. just the way i would not appreciate it if they were to impose their moral standards on me! regards, baruk http://bottlebroke.blogspot.com From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 03:14:17 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 03:14:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview In-Reply-To: <210690.76056.qm@web57210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <47e122a70807300704y5599ae2sd4b43e018aaf0206@mail.gmail.com> <210690.76056.qm@web57210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70807301444j5cf05efex1d200c00569e490f@mail.gmail.com> dear kshmendra and dear all, I wont use the word ' escapist' but we all know how to escape, the escape route is known to our existential reality more than to our intellect. you will agree perhpas, i really dont know if you cleverly escape the point which i made or you dont want to connect with that...i dont know.... you have enough craft to escape, all of us have in our own respective way.... forget about the quote, there is a art poster which reads WHO WILL WRITE THE HISTORY OF TEARS. the image underneath the text shows a mouth open , crying in anguish, it is an image and therefore, silence. i am quite intersted in silences, particularly those which are about pain, the universal pain, which affects all of us. all i said in my previous mail 'that If the issue of brutality on innocent masses is talked without prejudice' . afterall what is wrong with this statement? as i said we know our escape routes, quite well, it works, until we are caught beyond our calculations. now i quote again, you might have read: Pastor Martin Niemotlier When the Nazis came for the Communists, I remained silent; I was not a Communist. When they locked up the Social Democrats, I remained silent; I was not a Social Democrat. When they came for the Trade Unionists, I did not speak out; I was not a Trade Unionist. When they came for the Jews, I remained silent; I wasn't a Jew. When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out. dear kshmendra, i got a desperate call from kashmiri mother, whose son is an artist in bangalore doing mfa, after the recent blasts, he had no choice but to run for safety, paranoid but not for nothing... kashmiri muslims are now marked, but who is there to blame in the first palce, if not indian state who failed to address the legitimate kashmiri issue....what this kashmiri artist should do ? who will speak on his behalf in india as and when there is a blast in india... now you see how his escape route to kashmir is existential... now the situation is such that everything is in doubt, people in kashmir believe that wandhama, chattisingpora or even chari-sharif incidents are masterminded by indian state, now how to clear the confusion even if it is untrue. it is like a game of chess which is won by clever moves rather than force on ground, and if you feel on that account india is winning in kashmir, you will escape the fact, this time uncessfully coming back to interview with hamid karzai, is this really unnatural to hate amercia in afganistan, had amitab matoo asked the president of afganistan that why americans trained mujaheedeen against russians he would really shot down his hopes for a getting a big wig to interview in future....the question that why are those talibans now terrorists would have rattled him . There are ironies in politics, you know well, we will only burn our fingers if we tend to play those games, unless you become one of them, on both the sides you know how it stinks..... i remember,when bill clinton visited india, and a friend of mine managed to sit in the audience of an open TV interview, but to his surprise he told me that we were strictly WARNED not to ask any question about Lewinsky....so the TV channel ensured that they dont deviate the offical line. now if we ask amitab matoo the question that why he did not ask hamid karzai the question of american war in iraq or even their role in pakistan in relation with ISI, or many other muddly deals, he will manage to escape with a crafty answer like you did.... well if you dont see any love in my word love i will say mohobat. and i quote jigar ( if i remember it accurately ) unka kaam hai ahlay siyasat woh janay, mara kaam hai mohobat jahan pohanchay. ( their job is to play games in politics, my job is talk about love, endlessly) so love is On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Inder Salim > > > > Your comments are better addressed to Murtaza Shibli. He brought in the 'brutality scale' and the 'scale of brutality' of different personalities. You did not notice but I refused to enter into that discussion. > > > > Similarly with you, I will not enter into a discussion about particular individuals selectively chosen for commenting upon. > > > > I must also admit that I am extremely limited in my capabilities of being able to have a meaningful discussion with many individuals. I find it impossible to express myself in a "mutiple tracks of thought" environment. I envy those who can. > > > > The Godard quote made absolutely no sense to me. My limitation again. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > PS: You sign off with "with love". I wish I could get the slightest feel of it in your words. Must yet again be my limitation. > > > > --- On Wed, 7/30/08, inder salim wrote: > > From: inder salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Wednesday, July 30, 2008, 7:34 PM > > Dear Sshmendra, > > To exercise brutality is part of power structure, we all know, it is often > implict, but we tend to discuss its explicty form only, > perhpas, because that suits us to take sides easily, but we are likely to > fall in the trap.... so we all need to watch our words... > > YOU will agree with me that mr. Jagmohan, ex governver, is an RSS man.... i > wonder why on earth he banned sheep slaughter in kashmir on ashtamis. that > was the most unfortunate provocation , and Nisar Qazi in anantnag responded > appropriately by slaying sheeps openly on ashtamis, and the stupid governer > sahib could not do anything but watch...... > > then, Why on earth Jagmohan ordered firing on the masses in 1990 for which > he is criticized by each and every kashmiri, > > imagine if a person like mAHATMA gANdhi was there incharge, would he order > such a firing on innocent gathering....of whatever nature... and if we > dismiss gandhi, and use him only on currency notes, then it is the same case > of > > Jab chaaha nazron mein liya, aur jab chaaha nazarandaaz kiya. Ye kaisa > zulm? (At times you choose to pay heed to me and at times you choose to > ignore me. Why this cruelty? > > although i dont agree with the popular theory that jagmohan masterminded the > exodus of kashmiri pandits, but i would like to see him tried in > international court of justice for ordering such a massacre.... > > and immmediately after that,we need to talk about what india has lost in > kashmir , a permenant loss of face, and gained what? the name of a > opressor... > > coming back to interview, and the brutal afgan rule in kashmir... i > remember, > #the line by JL Godard, the french film maker.... > > THE CROSS OF CHRISTIANS IS ON THE SHOULDERS OF JEWS, > , AND THE CROSS OF JEWS IS ON THE SHOULDERS OF PALESTENINES. > > i truly wish, that the issue of brutality on innocent masses is talked > without prejudice....that way we can even talk about the brutality against > kashmiri pandits in kashmir 1990, or any other kind of violence in the > world.... after all what we finally do with our imposed identieis...they > finally dissolve, and what is lasting in this world, something which gandhi > believed in,,, ... > > i am not a absolute admirer of gandhi , but what he achieved will pass the > test of time, and what jagmohan ad the afgan ruler did in kashmir will not, > ... > > > > with love > > inder salim > > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 6:23 PM, Kashmir Affairs > wrote: > > > Kshmendra, > > sorry don't have time for discussions rite now.... > > can't promise but hope to further elaborate at some time in future. > > cheers, > > murtaza > > > > --- On Wed, 30/7/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview > > To: , kashaffairs at yahoo.co.uk > > Date: Wednesday, 30 July, 2008, 11:55 AM > > > > Shibli Sahib > > > > Jab chaaha nazron mein liya, aur jab chaaha nazarandaaz kiya. Ye kaisa > > zulm? (At times you choose to pay heed to me and at times you choose to > > ignore me. Why this cruelty? > > > > What happened to my enquiries about the dimensions of "Open Borders / > Joint > > Control of Kashmir"? > > > > I will not provide my list of or ratings for those who deserve to be > > included in the 'brutality scale', but yes, it is an interesting > interview > > of Karzai. > > > > Take care > > > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Wed, 7/30/08, Kashmir Affairs > wrote: > > > > From: Kashmir Affairs > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Wednesday, July 30, 2008, 3:15 PM > > > > wonderful. Thanks for sharing this. > > Afghan rule is one of the darkest rules in Kashmir. First being the Sikh > > rule. > > Kakar Khan, the Afghan governor was the most brutal - he is even said to > > have > > bit ear of a corpse. Jagmohan Malhotra - the governor in 1990s was likened > > with > > Kakar Khan by the Kashmiri newspapers for his brutality. > > > > Murtaza Shibli > > > > > > --- On Wed, 30/7/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Subject: [Reader-list] SOME SPLENDID SUNS - The Hamid Karzai interview > > To: "sarai list" > > Date: Wednesday, 30 July, 2008, 9:58 AM > > > > This interview has apparently been published in 'Sakaal IGA' > (India and > > Global Affairs) magazine http://www.igamag.com/milestones.html > > > > I received it titled with "Afghanistan had a period of very bad rule > in > > Kashmir" quote of Karzai. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > Afghanistan had a period of very bad rule in Kashmir > > > > (The interview was originally published in India and Global Affairs > > Magazine) > > > > There are few leaders in the world that that have encountered threats to > > their > > life almost every single day of their tenure. Even in the recent past, the > > President of Afghanistan, Hamid Karzai, has survived at least four > > serious > > assassination attempts and scores of other plots that were hatched by all > > those > > opposed to his vision of building a 'new' Afghanistan. Not > surprisingly > > then, gaining entry to his fortified residence in Kabul is a visitor's > > nightmare. Not even a pencil is allowed in, as a combination of > mechanical, > > human and canine interceptors attempt to secure the President. Journalists > > are > > treated with exceptional suspicion after an Al Qaeda suicide squad, posing > > as a > > television crew, assassinated Ahmad Shah Massoud, described today as > " the > > national hero of Afghanistan", two days before 9/11. > > > > The only recent change in the security infrastructure is the gradual > > transition from the ubiquitous US Marines in the Presidential Palace to > > more > > Afghan guards. On the streets of Kabul, the sense of a country and a city > > under > > siege is no less. Heads of missions routinely travel in bulletproof > > vehicles > > escorted by vehicles with jammers to disable IEDs, and Embassies are > > fortified > > with several sets of concrete walls to prevent suicide bombers from > gaining > > access. That, however, did not prevent the suicide attack on the Indian > > embassy > > that killed two Indian diplomats and scores of others. > > > > But Hamid Karzai displays none of the tension and insecurity that goes > > with > > being the President of arguably one of the most difficult and insecure > > states > > in > > the international system. Charismatic, charming, confident and remarkably > > articulate in English, Karzai comes across as a leader genuinely wanting > to > > make > > a difference. Although hurt by criticism over corruption in his government > > and > > by descriptions of him as being little more than the Mayor of Kabul, the > > President of Afghanistan seems still genuinely committed to building an > > Afghanistan at peace with itself and the outside world. With a remarkable > > understanding of Afghan history, 51-year old, Hamid Karzai, an ethnic > > Pashtun > > of > > the Popalzai clan of the Durrani tribe, has a great sense of pride in his > > people > > and his country. > > > > Hamid Karzai, In a free-wheeling interview with Amitabh Mattoo, Vice > > Chancellor, University of Jammu, outlines his vision for Afghanistan and > > the > > Afghan people. > > > > Excerpts from the interview: > > > > Hamid Karzai: Welcome Vice-Chancellor! Are there any students from > > Afghanistan in Jammu and Kashmir? > > > > Amitabh Matoo: Not at the moment. But while I was growing up in Srinagar, > > we > > had many Afghan students. > > > > Hamid Karzai: You know, Afghanistan had a period of very bad rule in > > Kashmir. > > Have you studied that? > > > > Amitabh Matoo: Yes, Sir! > > > > Hamid Karzai: Do the Kashmiris talk about it? > > > > Amitabh Matoo: They talk about Afghan rule, not in the most pleasant of > > terms. > > > > Hamid Karzai: They don't? Where is Zalmay Rasool? Bring him? Let us > defame > > him. We have here my National Security Advisor, Zalmay Rasool. His great > > grandfather was the Afghan Governor of Kashmir. A terrible Governor. He > was > > the > > last Governor of Kashmir of Afghanistan. When he went there, people came > to > > greet him. As is the custom in this part of the world, they asked him > > "what > > can we do for you Mr. Governor or your Highness?" because he was his > > Highness the King's brother or cousin. So, he said, "I would like > to > > help you by buying the wind from you", and the elders of Kashmir went > out, > > consulted each other. They came back and said, fine. They sold him the > wind > > and > > he gave them a couple of thousands or lakhs of rupees and he bought the > > wind. > > Time went by. They were reaping their crops and separating the chaff from > > the > > wheat and he came and said "the wind is mine", and then he > charged > > them 25 percent of their annual products! Imagine. > > > > Amitabh Matoo: I didn't know this. > > > > Hamid Karzai: Oh, he became the richest man in Afghanistan. This man's > name > > was Azeem. Before him, there was Governor called Attah. Attah was a very > > good > > man. Azeem was the last Governor. So, the people of Kashmir wrote a poem > in > > Persian to Amir Dost Mohammed Khan, the king of Afghanistan. In that poem > > they > > kind of explained to him that this is not the right kind of governor: > > > > "Attai Mohammed ma burai, Bala-i-Azeeme har ma firastane". > > > > Attah means 'gift' - they say in the poem that you have taken away > the > > gift of Mohammed, meaning the Prophet Mohammed - from us and sent us a > > 'great (Azeem)' evil in its place. When the king read this, he > recalled > > the Governor. With that also came the end of Afghan rule in Kashmir. > > > > Amitabh Matoo: I know, it was not a pleasant time. > > > > Hamid Karzai: And what is your own field? > > > > Amitabh Matoo: International Relations. I did my D.Phil from Oxford > > University > > and then I came back and taught at Jawaharlal Nehru University (JNU) for > > some > > years. > > > > Hamid Karzai: JNU, a great place! I like that institution a lot. India > will > > do > > very well, if it continues to lay emphasis on intellectual excellence. > > > > And it must do more in the field of value education. You have embedded in > > the > > Indian culture and psyche, the depth of knowledge. And that is an immense > > asset > > in your hands in India. If you can continue to combine that, with modern > > science > > and with the humility and humbleness that Indian culture offers, that > > combination will make India one of the greatest countries in the world in > > the > > coming years. I am always afraid, that the new generations of India will > > misunderstand modernity; that they will interpret modernity as not > wearing, > > say, > > a sari. The sari used here as a symbol for many things. > > > > Your depth of cultural beauty is the most important concern for humanity. > > Going beyond the self, is one of the greatest assets of India. What Gandhi > > ji > > has done for you, in terms of the struggle for rights and going beyond > > self. > > Sometimes I am concerned. I hope I am wrong. What is your view? Do you > > think > > the > > young in India know what they are doing? > > > > Amitabh Matoo: I think it is one of the great challenges. > > > > Hamid Karzai: It is? > > > > Amitabh Matoo: And what is happening is that occasionally we lose the > > balance, > > while being driven by, as you pointed out, the attractiveness of > modernity. > > Sometimes it is so seductive that you begin to lose your moorings, your > > roots. > > > > Hamid Karzai: Attractiveness of modernity or modernity misdefined? > > > > Amitabh Matoo: I agree, modernity misdefined. But the greatness of India, > > as > > you pointed out will be that it will, hopefully, be able to strike and > > sustain > > the right balance. > > > > Hamid Karzai: To sustain it will take an amount of effort. But let us hope > > that > > it happens! > > > > Amitabh Matoo: How do you look back at your tenure as President, in terms > > of > > what you have been able to achieve and what you thought you could have > > possibly > > done better? > > > > > > Hamid Karzai: When I look back at my past six years as the President of > > Afghanistan, my greatest success is that I made Afghanistan home for all > > Afghans. All Afghans feel comfortable here, those who were fighting with > > each > > other in the streets of this country, are now sitting side by side in the > > Parliament, debating each other, voting for each other, making alliances, > > breaking alliances. The other big achievement is in the return of Afghan > > boys > > and girls to education, I wish we had invited you yesterday, we forgot, to > > the > > commencement ceremony of 600 students from all around the country, who > > graduated > > from various faculties of Universities of Afghanistan. It was a > great-great > > day. > > > > I take pride also in the improvement in health services, of which > > earlier we had almost none. I also brought back to this country the voice > > of > > the people. They can talk now; they have the freedom to express > themselves, > > freedom of expression, freedom of speech and a culture of debate in > > society. > > > > I have exposed the government to criticism. The government is no longer > > the > > ruler. It is a body facing serious public scrutiny. Just a few minutes > > before > > you came, there was the German press with me. They grilled me on > > corruption, > > grilled me completely, and roasted me. Good! That is what I want. > > > > I brought back to this country, the public treasure. There is financial > > procedure, norms, a code of conduct. There are no secret or hidden > > accounts. > > The > > country has gone from 180 dollars per capita to two times higher. It is > > nearly > > 355 dollars now. The legitimate GDP has doubled. > > > > Afghanistan has found its place back in the rest of the world. Its flag > is > > flying all around the world. Its presence is all around the world. There > is > > no > > venue in which Afghanistan is not present. > > > > Afghanistan has built more roads in the past 5-6 years then it has ever > > built > > in its life. Afghans spend more than they did even before. Of course, all > > of > > this is due to the help of the international community. And, most > > importantly, > > Afghanistan was removed from being a surrogate in this part of world to > > this or > > that country. Its identity, its independence is no longer as threatened. > > > > Amitabh Matoo: And the failures? The problems? > > > > Hamid Karzai: Afghanistan has lots of problems. Poppy and the opium > trade, > > which will not go away in spite of all my efforts for another 10-15 years. > > We > > have to work together: our society and the international community to deal > > with > > this huge problem. Much of the poppy cultivation is driven by desperation. > > So, > > desperation has to go away for people to resort to legitimate forms of > > agriculture. > > > > Afghanistan still has a very weak capacity in administration. It > doesn't > > have the tools, the human capital to deliver the goods to its people. And, > > of > > course, what makes most sad is the number of Afghan lives that we have > lost > > in > > the form of the Taliban and in the form of those fighting against the > > Taliban > > from Afghanistan. So, the lack of complete security for the Afghan people > > is > > one > > of my greatest sorrows and perhaps my greatest failure. Though the country > > on > > the whole has seen a lot of stability and peace, but even one home feeling > > unsafe is equal to the whole country feeling unsafe. > > > > Amitabh Matoo: Regarding India, you talked about its contribution in > > education. I talked to a group of Afghan students and they said that the > > American University may set-up a campus in Kabul. Would the Afghan > > Government > > be > > open to Jammu University setting up a campus in Kabul? Or a > public-private > > partnership in education? > > > > Hamid Karzai: Absolutely! We want investment in education from Indian > > public > > and private players. As soon as possible, in any numbers as you like. You > > are > > already too late. Hurry up! Hurry up! This is one of the best services > that > > you > > can offer the Afghan people. Also, we would encourage investment in > health, > > in > > Information Technology, in infrastructure building and Agriculture. > > > > Amitabh Matoo: In terms of the region, now that Afghanistan is a part of > > SAARC > > how do you view the process of regional integration? And what about > > Pakistan? > > You know there is concern within India about Pakistan being a spoiler. > > > > Hamid Karzai: Well, this is a very important issue, for Afghanistan, for > > Pakistan and for India. Wisdom would not lead us in any other direction > but > > in > > the direction of openness and co-operation. If we continue to have > > blockages > > for > > transit and transport, in exchanges of trade and commerce, we are not > > hurting > > the other countries, we are hurting ourselves. So, this is not only a > > policy, > > this is a human wish for the next generations of the countries of the > > world, of > > this region, especially the three countries. If we want to live in > > prosperity, > > we have to open up, completely separating politics from it. I would very > > much > > recommend an open road system, open exchanges of goods, of industry, of > > talents. > > Eventually this is going to happen, it will be better if it happens > > sooner. > > > > Pakistan should give access to India to move to Central Asia. India > should > > give full access to Pakistan to move to East Asia. India must recognize > > Pakistan's importance and Pakistan must recognize India's > importance. > > Afghanistan will be happy to be engaged with both. > > > > Amitabh Matoo: The issue of trade, as you said, should be divorced from > > politics but unfortunately given the history of India- Pakistan relations > > that's not always been so. We hope that this will change. I was in > Pakistan > > just after the election and with the Awami National Party winning power in > > the > > North Western Frontier Province (NWFP), the new leadership is thinking of > > talking to the local Taliban and reviving the spirit of Pashtoonwali – > the > > traditional cultural and social ethos and code of honour of the Pashtuns > - > > as > > a way of combating extremism. You have often talked about talking to > > sections > > of > > Taliban? Do you think that this is possible? Will it lead anywhere? > > > > Hamid Karzai: Yes! First of all, the victory of ANP in the elections of > > North-West Frontier Provinces proved that given the opportunity, all > people > > will > > vote for common sense and moderation. And the people of North-Western > > Frontier > > Province proved this in a very clear voice, by voting for a moderate, > > life-oriented representation. So the propaganda that the Pashtoons were > > extremists or harboured extremists was proven wrong by the votes that the > > Pashtoon cast in favour of ANP. Indeed, the Pashtoons, they were victims > of > > extremism and terrorism. As soon as they got the opportunity, they > rejected > > extremism and terrorism. They wanted a moderate representation, giving > them > > hope > > for the future. > > > > ANP's fight against extremism is clear. They do not want to negotiate > > with those foreign extremists who found a place, a sanctuary, in the > > Pashtoon > > lands. They want them removed, which is good. But they want to talk to > > fellow > > Pashtoons, to their fellow men to find ways of freeing them from the grips > > of > > extremism. I would entirely support them. So, fight the extremist radicals > > with > > guns, liberate the rest. > > > > Amitabh Matoo: Would you see this happening even in Afghanistan? > > > > Hamid Karzai: Afghanistan has been saying this for a long time. We want to > > talk > > and bring back to our country those who are driven out from Afghanistan by > > fear > > or consigned to bad treatment by us or by the earlier Afghan Government or > > the > > coalition. But we will not allow extremism, we will continue to fight the > > Al-Qaida and terrorist networks or those who are associated with them. And > > those > > who are driven out because fear or ignorance must be given a chance to > come > > back. > > > > Amitabh Matoo: So, do you think the legacy of someone like Badshah Khan, > > the > > Frontier Gandhi, can be mainstreamed within the Pashtoons? > > > > Hamid Karzai: Immensely, immensely, his call for non-violence is a major > > issue > > today, a major issue today. And for the Pashtoons, Badshah Khan, a man > like > > that, with a vision like that is a source of immense inspiration! At a > time > > like > > today when there is so much violence inflicted upon people, so much > > suffering, > > destruction, people being driven away from homes, that vision of Badshah > > Khan > > is > > the best service to the cause of > > > > Amitabh Matoo: I am sure you are aware of the catch-22 nature of the > > region's relationship with the United States. On the one hand, some > feel > > that there is a genuine need for the presence and influence of the US and > > international community, especially here, to combat terrorism. And, yet, > on > > the > > other, there seems to be growing anti-Americanism all over the region. > > > > Hamid Karzai: Afghanistan is, as a nation, very-very grateful to the > United > > States of America for liberating us. We were an occupied country, almost > > entirely, six years ago and the United States and the rest of the world > > helped > > us liberate ourselves. Not only that, the United States came to > reconstruct > > our > > country. All the comforts, all the signs of reconstruction in Afghanistan > > are > > mostly done with the help of the United States and then of course, other > > countries. In Afghanistan, there is no anti-Americanism, fortunately. We > > were > > grateful, even in the past, to America, because we were together fighting > > the > > Soviet army. Afghanistan's natural tendencies have always been pro- > > capitalism, free enterprise, and private ownership. We see the US as a God > > loving and God fearing country generally. I don't know why, but I have > not > > heard of sections of India being anti-American. > > > > Amitabh Matoo: In India to a limited extent, but in Pakistan > > anti-Americanism seems to be very intense > > > > Hamid Karzai: Yes, Pakistan. I heard a lot about it. But, I don't know > > whether that's true or it is only in the media, or driven by certain > > interests. But I can only speak for Afghanistan and I can speak only for > > the > > Afghan people. There is overwhelming support for the United States and for > > the > > United States presence in Afghanistan. And there is growing friendship > > between > > India and the United States. We encourage that, very much. > > > > Amitabh Matoo: Just before I came to Kabul, the Indian media carried a > > story > > which said that the Afghan Government has stopped some Indian soap operas > > and > > there was some criticism in the media. > > > > Hamid Karzai: We have not stopped that, there was the Clergy Council of > > Afghanistan, the religious ulema. They had a complaint with not only > > Indian > > dramas but also Pakistani dramas and some other items in the Afghan media > > that > > they did not like from the religious point of view, not being in tone with > > the > > day to day life of people. The commission was set up to correct parts of > > it, > > not > > to remove it. The Afghan people love watching those dramas. > > > > Amitabh Matoo: But this censorship is in no ways signaling a return to the > > days > > of the Taliban regime? > > > > Hamid Karzai: Not at all. Not at all. Not at all. Definitely, not, > > Definitely, > > not, Definitely, not. We were always an extremely friendly society in > > Afghanistan, towards India. Even when I was growing up. Among the youth > > here > > there is as much knowledge about India and Indian movies as we had when we > > were > > that age and even more. > > > > Amitabh Matoo: Even the official photographer said that he had learnt > > Hindi > > from the films. > > > > Hamid Karzai: Of course, sure, they have all done that, absolutely. > > > > Amitabh Matoo: When you were young did you see Indian movies? > > > > Hamid Karzai: Of course, in our times the films were better. I don't > know > > if I can say that. The new directors will get mad at us! > > > > Amitabh Matoo: The expatriate Afghan writer Khalid Husseini's , A > > Thousand Splendid Suns was recently published. It has become very popular, > > but > > it has also raised concerns about the place and role of Afghan women. > What > > kind of role do you see for women in Afghanistan? > > > > Hamid Karzai: It is an evolving and improving and developing role, but I > > was > > very happy to see so many of Afghan girls graduating recently. Almost half > > were > > girls. > > > > Almost half were girls, especially in the Medical Sciences. They are not > > many > > in Engineering, just a few of them. Most of them from Medical Sciences, a > > lot > > of > > them. They are growing happily. But, Afghanistan has a long way to travel, > > a > > long way to travel. We have to be realistic about it and keep trying, > > very-very > > hard. The best service for Afghan women, the best help to them to function > > better, is to educate them and then to educate them better. There is no > > shortcut, unfortunately. > > > > Amitabh Matoo: How do you see yourself? All these years as President, are > > you a > > happier person, a most satisfied person or a more stressed person? > > > > Hamid Karzai: In thoughts, I am very happy. And I was very happy > > yesterday, > > in giving the Certificates and Diplomas to all the graduates, And I am > > happy > > when I have to inaugurate a road, to inaugurate a school, to see people > > getting > > education and seeing young Afghan talent emerging and to see democracy > > taking > > roots in Afghanistan, institutional structures taking roots in Afghanistan > > and > > empowerment of the judiciary, the freedom of the press. And it causes me > > pain, > > personally, I feel hurt when the press criticizes me unfairly. And of > > course, I > > have immense moments of anguish and anger when the Afghans suffer in > > bomb-blasts, in acts of terrorism. When our villages are bombed, our > people > > suffer. This makes me very angry. > > > > Amitabh Matoo: We hope that you will be elected for your next tenure. But, > > what > > would be your principle agenda for the next term? > > > > Hamid Karzai: To continue to rebuild Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, the > > agenda is > > very broad. It is not like in other countries, it is not like in India, > > where > > you have certain things and you want to add other things. In Afghanistan, > > we > > have to move in all the directions, at the same time. Keep building > > schools, > > keep building roads, keep adding quantity and quality to it. In your part > > of > > the > > world, it is sometimes quantity. But in terms of the achievements, you > keep > > adding to the quality that you have. In Afghanistan, we must work on > > fronts, > > quantity and quality. > > > > Better roads, more roads. More schools, better schools. More hospitals, > > better hospitals. More teachers, better teachers. More wages, higher > wages. > > So, > > strengthening of the institutions and having ability to abide by the law, > > improving the rule of law and working on finishing this culture of > > impurity, > > where offenders go unpunished. > > > > Amitabh Matoo: And combating corruption. > > > > Hamid Karzai: And combating corruption and combating extremism It is a > very > > full house of activity. > > > > Amitabh Matoo: Excellency, how do you de-stress yourself? I mean as a > > Vice-Chancellor, I feel stressed at the end of the day. but yours' is > the > > most challenging job perhaps in the whole world.\ > > > > Hamid Karzai: I think for me now, the best stress buster is the sight of > my > > son, when I go to him. He is fourteen months old now, just beginning to > > learn > > words. Each day go to see him in the evening, he has picked up a new word. > > This > > morning he learnt 'Kela'. > > > > Amitabh Matoo: What is his name? > > > > Hamid Karzai: Mirwais. Mirwais is one of the greatest Afghan > personalities. > > He > > was the person who began the modern concept of loya jirga, when > Afghanistan > > had > > the Iranian ruler, actually Georgian. He was from Georgia named > 'Gurgan > > Khan' ruling in Kandhar. There began a movement of the Afghan people > > through > > consultations. What you call in your country the 'Panchayat > System'. > > > > Through the Panchayat, he began a system of consultations that eventually > > liberated Afghanistan. Not through military means, through civilian action > > and > > consultation. A bright man! Of course, his sons created then an empire > > towards > > the west, towards Iran, right up to Isfahan and that was a short lived > one. > > > > Amitabh Matoo: Thank you very much, Excellency! > > > > Hamid Karzai: Welcome, Vice-Chancellor, welcome. > > > > (The interview was originally published in India and Global Affairs > > Magazine) > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Not happy with your email address?. > > Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available > now > > at > > Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Not happy with your email address?. > > Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available > now > > at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From difusion at medialab-prado.es Wed Jul 30 22:29:45 2008 From: difusion at medialab-prado.es (Difusion Medialab-Prado) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:59:45 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Call for projects> Interactivos? Lima'08: Magic and Technology Message-ID: <48909E01.80203@medialab-prado.es> Open call for projects. Deadline: August 31, 2008 INTERACTIVOS? LIMA'08: MAGIC AND TECHNOLOGY International Project Development Workshop October 10 through 24, 2008 At the Cultural Center of Spain in Lima (Peru) Organized by Medialab-Prado (The Arts Area - Town Hall of Madrid) and the Cultural Center of Spain in Lima (Spanish Agency for International Development Cooperation - AECID) Call for the submission of projects to be developed as part of the Interactivos? Lima'08: Magic and Technology workshop, led by Julian Oliver (New Zealand/Spain), Clara Boj (Spain), Diego Díaz (Spain) and Kiko Mayorga (Peru). At the end of the workshop, projects will be exhibited at the Cultural Center from October 24 through November 6, 2008. The call is aimed at artists, magicians, engineers, musicians, programmers, designers, architects, hackers, psychologists, or any other person interested in presenting a project on this topic. Goals: to propose strategies of magic and illusion, in order to harness some of the old and new technological resources to collectively build software pieces and interactive installations which can propose a rethinking of the usual scenario in magic tricks; to broaden the topic through the exploration of the meanings of the magic concept within the local context of Peru; to propose magic and illusion as an approach for experiments on perception and attention, behaviour and social relationships; and to propose a critical viewpoint on the seduction of technology and its application on the spectacle as a tool of persuasion and control. The proposals will be carried out in multidisciplinary work groups comprised by the author(s) and interested collaborators, with conceptual and technical advice from the teaching staff. Open call for collaborators: September 15, 2008. For information, complete call guidelines and submissions: interactivoslima at ccelima.org interactivos08 at medialab-prado.es http://medialab-prado.es/article/interactivos_lima08_magia_y_tecnologia http://www.ccelima.org/ -- Nerea García Garmendia Medialab Prado Área de Las Artes, Ayuntamiento de Madrid Plaza de las Letras Alameda, 15 28014 Madrid Tfno. +34 914 202 754 difusion at medialab-prado.es www.medialab-prado.es _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From logos.theword at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 19:38:15 2008 From: logos.theword at gmail.com (Logos Theatre) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 19:38:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Workshop on a performance based approach to teaching Shakespeare In-Reply-To: <33bc2ee60807300707x4dcb99e8g3d8cc5fa9bdc7c4c@mail.gmail.com> References: <33bc2ee60807300707x4dcb99e8g3d8cc5fa9bdc7c4c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33bc2ee60807300708u50d712c6i58b01715d9adaab1@mail.gmail.com> Maya Gallery of Contemporary Art and Logos Theatre present "*A Performance Based Approach to Teaching Shakespeare:**Working With Macbeth", *a workshop for educators facilitated by Arka Mukhopadhyay. Overview: This workshop is designed for teachers of middle and high school, and lecturers in colleges, who teach Shakespearean texts to their students. It is not intended to supplant the traditional (and important) approaches such as critical analysis. However, it attempts to bring in ideas from the world of contemporary performance (devised theatre, performance art, installation, etc.), which would make it easier for students to relate to the texts more easily, and derive a sense of creative enjoyment while working on them. Methodology: The text chosen as a model in the workshop is Macbeth, but the ideas discussed/ generated can be applied to any of the plays. The workshop is completely experiential and activity based in nature. It will start off with basic physical preparation, which the teachers can use back in their classrooms, and will then systematically examine how the study of the text can be enlivened by employing basic dramatic usage of the voice, body and space within the confines of the classroom. It will then proceed to look at how various parts of the text can be associated to contemporary reality, and how this can be a foundation for performance ideas. The next stage would be the interpretation of elements of the text visually, sculpturally and through simple installations, using material readily accessible in a classroom. Techniques through which the students might associate the personal and the universal, with the text as the focusing element, will be discussed, and performance based approaches to specific themes in the play, such as darkness, blood, and the nature of the witches (in a post-modern context) will round off the session. Facilitator profile: Arka Mukhopadhyay is a poet, director and performer. He is the founder and artistic director of Logos Theatre, and has extensive experience in designing and facilitating workshops both in the corporate as well as the educational space. He has taught at an international school and has worked with educational institutions in different parts of the country. His solo, devised Shakespearean performance, Shreds and Patches, has been performed to critical acclaim in different parts of the country. Dates: August 7th and 8th Time: 14:00 - 18:00 Venue: Maya Gallery of Contemporary art, #59, Nandidurga Road Number of participants: Each institution should send a maximum of two participants. The workshop is limited to twelve participants and registrations will close once twelve participants have registered. Fees: 2,500/- (inclusive of refreshments and cost of materials) Registration closes by: August 4th. For further details and to register, contact Vivek Poonacha on 9844662547 or mail contact at logostheatreindia.org * * -- Logos Theatre In the beginning was the word No. 126, 3rd Main Road, Jayamahal Extension, Bangalore 560046 -------------------------------------------------------- If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all. Since no man has aught of what he leaves, what is't to leave betimes? Let be. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From logos.theword at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 11:37:45 2008 From: logos.theword at gmail.com (Logos Theatre) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:37:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Of art, morality, etc. In-Reply-To: <833215.24793.qm@web54202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <33bc2ee60807300925y1cbc4458j397aaefa69cbcd6d@mail.gmail.com> <833215.24793.qm@web54202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <33bc2ee60807302307y1080cac4kdea43cd55dd22ce@mail.gmail.com> Dear Baruk, Thanks for your reply. The idea of the original post wasn't exactly IFA bashing, because that will take up a whole volume by itself :D But yes, this mail is an excellent example of how any serious pursuit of art gets compromised in academic gobbledygook and, well... intellectual autoerotic exercises. I would perhaps not have a huge problem with the word 'process' because I am at times guilty of using it myself - but that's mainly when I am trying to think/ talk about theatre as a process as opposed to performance as a product. But 'systemic' - yes, you got it there. Reminds of the architect from the matrix - systemic anomaly, etc. But yes, this essentially seems to be an incestuous exercise funded by the Tatas to prove how great the Tatas are for the arts. As to providing more infrastructure - I would have grave doubts about how much actual liquid cash would be forthcoming. They seem to be more interested in 'studying' theare practitioners as lab rats. The last part of your mail in response to mine is where the crux of the matter lies though. I may be old fashioned, but I don't think the existence of self-contradictory truths are possible. It's not about imposing my standards on anyone else - in any case, who am I to impose my standards and what physical means do I have to do so? I can't line up the artistic high and mighty against the wall even if I wished to and I do not wish to - but I don't think one can practise art without belief - belief in the absolute truth of what one is doing. After all, a piece of granite, in order to be transformed to a work of art, is subservient to the laws of physics - it will brook no moral ambivalence. Should an artist's moral strength also not be like that piece of granite? And what is art without humanity? What validity does my art have, no matter what its apparent merit, if I am a mediocrite of the mind, if I turn a blind eye to the sources of my funding - where the funds are coming from and at what cost (ask the family of tapasi malik the answer to that), functioning in my own little bubble? I may not go about imposing my beliefs on others, but I can't help but think such 'artists' to be utter hypocrites, and furthermore, cannot hide that judgement from myself, because that would then make me a hypocrite as well. As Conrad said, 'The horror! The horror!'. How wonderful it would be if artists came forward and denounced all grantmaking initiatives of the Tatas! On a different note, the very idea of an organisation (especially one filled to the brim with academics, not practitioners) sitting in the position of being an arbiter of what 'art' is, is in itself deeply disturbing, but that's for another day. A On 31/07/2008, Baruk S. Jacob wrote: > > hey arka, read your mail with much interest-areas i have been thinking > about too. my responses below, thanks for bringing this up! > > > > In each state, three cities will be covered. We will be capturing > > information under the following areas through the study: > > > > • Growth and decline of groups and performances over the last ten years > > > > • The needs and problems faced by performance groups and festival > > organizers > > > > • The advantages and disadvantages of performance spaces in each city > > > > • The ways in which grantees of different Tata Trusts have tried to > > address some of the needs and issues of performance infrastructure > > ~ i may be overly paranoid, but the line of questioning seems to be trying > to get at two things: 1) document how the tatas have 'helped' cultural > pursuit by providing infrastructure, and 2) how can the tatas gain more > cultural mileage and brand goodwill among people (by providing more > infrastructure). > > > Our grant programmes variously respond to existing demand for > > assistance, provide opportunities for artists to explore untried > > processes and new connections in the arts, or address systemic issues in > > the field. > > ~ notice that the areas given support are 'processes' and 'systemic' issues > in theatre? in other words, play safely academic. > > > The Theatre Infrastructure Cell(TIC) was set up earlier this year with > > the support of the Navajbai Ratan Tata Trust to look at > strengthening > theatre infrastructure in the country. > > ~ as long as you stick to experiments in technicalities, and do not offend > the hand that feeds you. > > > in as much as theatre itself is an act of taking a stance, > > an act of principle that takes immense moral courage to execute, I > > wonder how an artist or an artiste could work with Tata money (or money > > from any organization funded by them) and yet be at peace with > > himself/herself? > > ~ one can take a principled stance on either side of the fence. while i > personally would find it awfully difficult to work off a tata grant, it does > not therefore follow that all artist(e)s would therefore have the same > difficulty. > > > does such 'art' have any integrity? Any moral leg to stand on?"* > > ~ i tend to take the word 'integrity' at dictionary value-the fact of one's > actions being integrated with one's beliefs. by that definition, any art > that is true to the artist's beliefs has integrity. > > ~ to sum up, i completely share in your horror of tata's actions at singur, > and am equally disgusted at the way they try to play the role of the old > kings, patronising the arts with ill-gotten money. having said that, i > cannot impose the moral standard i hold for myself on other artists. just > the way i would not appreciate it if they were to impose their moral > standards on me! > > regards, > > baruk > > http://bottlebroke.blogspot.com > > > > -- Logos Theatre In the beginning was the word No. 126, 3rd Main Road, Jayamahal Extension, Bangalore 560046 -------------------------------------------------------- If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all. Since no man has aught of what he leaves, what is't to leave betimes? Let be. From logos.theword at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 11:44:37 2008 From: logos.theword at gmail.com (Logos Theatre) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:44:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Of art, morality, etc. In-Reply-To: <4785f1e20807301325m2c452172od0ce21ad15e4df72@mail.gmail.com> References: <33bc2ee60807300925y1cbc4458j397aaefa69cbcd6d@mail.gmail.com> <833215.24793.qm@web54202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4785f1e20807301325m2c452172od0ce21ad15e4df72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33bc2ee60807302314g6f2fab77t97d30f3ad49bfcd0@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pranesh, Since your mail was not sent to the reader list, I am including the text of your mail also. Very frankly speaking, your mail leaves me completely stupefied. Let me ask you a question - you see someone being robbed on the streets, and afterwards the robber politely comes to you and offers you a fraction of the money to create art. Would you take it? In other words, the answer to your question, *'Can't one wing do good work, and another be "ethically" evil, and still one not be "soiled" by associating with the one and not the other?' *is a clear and emphatic NO. There is a fundamental law of non-contradiction, and by that, if you create art based on money taken from the Tatas, then you have got the blood of Tapasi Malik (and others) on your hands. If you take a West Bengal government department of culture grant, you have got the blood of the dead in Nandigram on your hands. Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. Warm regards, Arka On 31/07/2008, Pranesh Prakash wrote: > > Dear All, > Very frankly speaking, I don't see the issue. Why can't one be a > reaseacher, honestly chronicling the good work (or lack thereof) done by the > various Tata Trusts. Why is there the necessity of lumping all of the Tata > group's identities into one? Can't one wing do good work, and another be > "ethically" evil, and still one not be "soiled" by associating with the one > and not the other? Union Carbide (now part of Dow Chemicals) is a company > that has ravaged the lives of thousands in one of the worst industrial > disasters ever, and is a company that no self-respecting citizen of this > world should contribute to until they act responsibly. Does that make their > community outreach programmes in the U.S. worth nought? Can't we at the > same time praise one thing they do, while condemning another, and yet not be > hypocrites? The Tata Trusts, the Tata Institute of Social Sciences, and a > million other Tata initiatives do sterling work. While praising them, and > contributing to them, we can still advocate against the actions of other > wings of the Tata empire. > > I am somehow convinced that my response is not going to convince you. > > Regards, > Pranesh > > On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 01:21, Baruk S. Jacob wrote: > >> hey arka, read your mail with much interest-areas i have been thinking >> about too. my responses below, thanks for bringing this up! >> >> >> > In each state, three cities will be covered. We will be capturing >> > information under the following areas through the study: >> > >> > • Growth and decline of groups and performances over the last ten years >> > >> > • The needs and problems faced by performance groups and festival >> > organizers >> > >> > • The advantages and disadvantages of performance spaces in each city >> > >> > • The ways in which grantees of different Tata Trusts have tried to >> > address some of the needs and issues of performance infrastructure >> >> >> ~ i may be overly paranoid, but the line of questioning seems to be trying >> to get at two things: 1) document how the tatas have 'helped' cultural >> pursuit by providing infrastructure, and 2) how can the tatas gain more >> cultural mileage and brand goodwill among people (by providing more >> infrastructure). >> >> > Our grant programmes variously respond to existing demand for >> > assistance, provide opportunities for artists to explore untried >> > processes and new connections in the arts, or address systemic issues in >> > the field. >> >> >> ~ notice that the areas given support are 'processes' and 'systemic' >> issues in theatre? in other words, play safely academic. >> >> > The Theatre Infrastructure Cell(TIC) was set up earlier this year with >> > the support of the Navajbai Ratan Tata Trust to look at strengthening > >> theatre infrastructure in the country. >> >> >> ~ as long as you stick to experiments in technicalities, and do not offend >> the hand that feeds you. >> >> > in as much as theatre itself is an act of taking a stance, >> > an act of principle that takes immense moral courage to execute, I >> > wonder how an artist or an artiste could work with Tata money (or money >> > from any organization funded by them) and yet be at peace with >> > himself/herself? >> >> >> ~ one can take a principled stance on either side of the fence. while i >> personally would find it awfully difficult to work off a tata grant, it does >> not therefore follow that all artist(e)s would therefore have the same >> difficulty. >> >> > does such 'art' have any integrity? Any moral leg to stand on?"* >> >> >> ~ i tend to take the word 'integrity' at dictionary value-the fact of >> one's actions being integrated with one's beliefs. by that definition, any >> art that is true to the artist's beliefs has integrity. >> >> ~ to sum up, i completely share in your horror of tata's actions at >> singur, and am equally disgusted at the way they try to play the role of the >> old kings, patronising the arts with ill-gotten money. having said that, i >> cannot impose the moral standard i hold for myself on other artists. just >> the way i would not appreciate it if they were to impose their moral >> standards on me! >> >> regards, >> >> baruk >> >> http://bottlebroke.blogspot.com >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: > > > > -- Logos Theatre In the beginning was the word No. 126, 3rd Main Road, Jayamahal Extension, Bangalore 560046 -------------------------------------------------------- If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all. Since no man has aught of what he leaves, what is't to leave betimes? Let be. From rajeshr at csds.in Thu Jul 31 14:27:00 2008 From: rajeshr at csds.in (Rajesh Ramakrishnan) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:27:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=60The_Role_of_Judgement_in_Politi?= =?windows-1252?q?cs_and_Explanations_of_Politics=92?= Message-ID: Wednesday, 6th August, 2008 You are invited to a talk on: `The Role of Judgement in Politics and Explanations of Politics' By Sanjay Ruparelia at 3 PM in the Seminar Hall, CSDS, 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi – 110 054 As individual citizens, we normally recognise that an essential aspect of political life concerns the exercise of judgment. Indeed, we make judgments on a daily basis, deciding what we should do and commenting on the judgments of others. Various considerations - moral, political, historical - inform these judgments. But our understanding of political judgment, per se, stresses whether a particular actor has 'read' a situation correctly. In doing so, we imply that good political judgment requires attention to particulars, practical considerations and the consequences of action: to understand what is, and is not, possible for a social actor to do in specific historical circumstances. Good political judgment is a mode of reasoning that cannot be guided by general theoretical principles. Moreover, it cannot be generalised. Yet as scholars, our political explanations aspire towards generalisation and overlook the necessity, practice and difficulty of judgment. What explains this apparent omission? Why does political judgment matter? And what are its ramifications for the status of conventional political explanations and the logic of inquiry that informs them? This paper explores these critical neglected questions. Although largely theoretical, it seeks to explain the significance of political judgment in India's coalition politics, and our understanding of these politics. Sanjay Ruparelia, Visiting Fellow at CSDS, is Assistant Professor of Political Science at the New School for Social Research. Dr. Ruparelia received his PhD in politics from the Faculty of Social and Political Sciences, University of Cambridge. His present research analyses the relationship between economic liberalisation, militant Hindu nationalism and the rise of lower-caste, communist and regional parties. He is writing a book manuscript, provisionally entitled, "Divided We Govern: Federal Coalition Politics in India", which analyses the importance of institutions, power and judgment in explaining the politics of the 'third force' since 1989. He is also co-editing a multidisciplinary volume of essays, "A Great Transformation? Understanding India's New Political Economy", which examines the preceding general themes. His previous research on federal coalition politics has been published in Comparative Politics and Economic and Political Weekly. From yasir.media at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 14:32:00 2008 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?WINDOWS-1256?Q?yasir_~=ED=C7_=D3=D1?=) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 02:02:00 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] CJ's visit to Karachi - Day 2 30.07.08 In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0807310157p54ea5e74y5837a6ec7bc65523@mail.gmail.com> References: <5af37bb0807310157p54ea5e74y5837a6ec7bc65523@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0807310202u2670907ej24dc435532b509bd@mail.gmail.com> decimation of judiciary ... Deposed judges won't let nation down: Iftikhar http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=16329 Independence of judiciary key to economic progress: Iftikhar http://www.dawn.com/2008/07/31/top7.htm Naek plan fizzles out as SHC judges stay united http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=16337 Aitzaz links survival of parliament to independent judiciary http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=16338 mention of People's Resistance in Jang 30.07.08 (attached image) y From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 15:14:42 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:14:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Dual Boot Not Trusted, Rejected By Vista SP1 Message-ID: <4891898A.1090703@gmail.com> "Welcome to our first real taste of Trusted Computing: With Vista Enterprise and Vista Ultimate, Service Pack 1 refuses to install on dual boot systems. Trusted Computing is one of the many things that got cut from Vista, but traces of it remain in BitLocker, and that is the problem. The Service Pack patch to your system will invalidate your Trust chain if you are not running the Microsoft-approved Microsoft-trusted boot loader, or if you make other similar unapproved modifications to your system. The Trust chip (the TPM) will then refuse to give you your key to unlock your own hard drive. If you are not running BitLocker then a workaround is available: Switch back to Microsoft's Vista-only boot mode, install the Service Pack, then reapply your dual boot loader. If you are running BitLocker, or if Microsoft resumes implementing Trusted Computing, then you are S.O.L." http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/07/30/204241.shtml -- Anivar Aravind I know my rights; I want my phone call! What use is a phone call, if you are unable to speak? (as seen on /.) Join The DRM Elimination Crew Now! http://fci.wikia.com/wiki/Anti-DRM-Campaign From contact at cultureunplugged.com Thu Jul 31 16:52:08 2008 From: contact at cultureunplugged.com (Culture Unplugged) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 04:22:08 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Green Consciousness Contemplated - festival announcement Message-ID: <5F5A65C1-BC6F-4955-979F-D5EE98B50E8A@cultureunplugged.com> dear friends, this is a call for an open festival to contemplate and promote the 'Green' life/nature within us + without. please review below. thank you for your time. - C. U. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - green unplugged Share your vision, your spirit, your film. Reach audiences across borders with your voice, your consciousness. ABOUT FESTIVAL : Culture Unplugged Studios will be launching 'Green Unplugged' - the festival where we unite to share our voices, not only as film-makers but culture-makers. The festival will facilitate contemplation, connection & celebration of life, culture & nature through cinema. We invite your green & socially conscious films that bring to light nature's demand to wake us to our future - an integrated individual and the human society. Share stories that reveal where we come from, our collective journey leading to our present and contemplating the path beyond. With this, Culture Unplugged will also be initiating a global archive of Asian & Middle Eastern cinema. Films from this archive will be showcased on the web and in film festivals around the world. We believe Asian/Eastern cinema is at the right stage today to be promoted at a global arena, to be connected to a seeking and eager community worldwide. Culture Unplugged wants to establish the infrastructure necessary for this. We wish to establish a meaningful partnership with the filmmaking community to get there. FESTIVAL DATE : 2008-2009 FESTIVAL VENUE : www.cultureunplugged.com/index.php (At presents this venue is running the film festival : East Speaks, Here. C.U.S’ debut festival and first online film festival for Asia + MiddleEast.) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - To submit your film to us please go through the following information: CRITERIA : 1) Films: On Social / Cultural / Environmental Issues. 2) Any form: Shorts (less than 15 min.) Short Features (upto 60 min.) Full Feature (upto 180 min.) + Mobi- films (upto 3 min.) 3) Film projects which are open to non-exclusive distribution (online and /or broadcast worldwide). 4) Films which are in English or suitably sub-titled in English (films originally produced in regional languages are welcome). Multiple submissions welcome. SUBMISSION PROCESS : Please fill the form at www.cultureunplugged.com/submit and mail your film to either of the following locations: For India & SE Asia Culture Unplugged Studios Clover Centrum, 2nd Floor, Galaxy Society, Plot No.5, Boat Club Road, Pune 411001, Maharashtra, India For USA, Canada & Europe: Culture Unplugged Studios 1825 South Grant Street, Suite 200 San Mateo, CA 94402 USA For Australia & New Zealand: Culture Unplugged Studios P.O. Box 21077 Henderson, Auckland, AZ FESTIVAL CALL FROM CULTURE UNPLUGGED | STUDIO.CULTUREUNPLUGGED.COM From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 20:49:33 2008 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 20:49:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Concern over India's stance at WTO talks Message-ID: <3457ce860807310819u66fc4f32obbd7afb0b5ad976b@mail.gmail.com> Concern over India's stance at WTO talks Date:31/07/2008 URL: http://www.thehindu.com/2008/07/31/stories/2008073160130300.htm Special Correspondent Thiruvananthapuram: The Kerala Swatantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation (KSMTF) representing traditional fish-workers in the State has expressed concern over the Indian position in the negotiations at the ongoing ministerial-level talks at the World Trade Organisation (WTO) meet in Geneva. A press note quoting KSMTF president T. Peter here on Wednesday urged Commerce Minister and leader of the delegation Kamal Nath to refrain from making a deal under pressure from corporate interests. The press note said the presence of fisheries in the WTO's NAMA (Non-Agriculture Market Access) negotiations was a fundamental mistake. Firstly, fish is not an industrial product. Further, trade liberalisation is bad for fish, for the environment and for community groups such as traditional fish-workers across the world who depend on fish for their livelihood. The federation expressed strong protest over the current NAMA text issued by WTO Director General Pascal Lamy. "The presence of fisheries in the sectoral negotiations flies in the face of the principle of 'special and differential' treatment. Further, the proposed norms will open the flood gates for mass imports of fish into the country, affecting the livelihoods of millions," it said. Pointing out that four-fifths of the WTO members had been excluded from the mini ministerial meet, KSMTF urged the Indian delegation to negotiate keeping national interests in mind. From difusion at medialab-prado.es Thu Jul 31 15:05:32 2008 From: difusion at medialab-prado.es (Difusion Medialab-Prado) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:35:32 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Call for projects> Interactivos? Lima'08: Magic and Technology Message-ID: <48918764.8030308@medialab-prado.es> Open call for projects. Deadline: August 31, 2008 INTERACTIVOS? LIMA'08: MAGIC AND TECHNOLOGY International Project Development Workshop October 10 through 24, 2008 At the Cultural Center of Spain in Lima (Peru) Organized by Medialab-Prado (The Arts Area - Town Hall of Madrid) and the Cultural Center of Spain in Lima (Spanish Agency for International Development Cooperation - AECID) Call for the submission of projects to be developed as part of the Interactivos? Lima'08: Magic and Technology workshop, led by Julian Oliver (New Zealand/Spain), Clara Boj (Spain), Diego Díaz (Spain) and Kiko Mayorga (Peru). At the end of the workshop, projects will be exhibited at the Cultural Center from October 24 through November 6, 2008. The call is aimed at artists, magicians, engineers, musicians, programmers, designers, architects, hackers, psychologists, or any other person interested in presenting a project on this topic. Goals: to propose strategies of magic and illusion, in order to harness some of the old and new technological resources to collectively build software pieces and interactive installations which can propose a rethinking of the usual scenario in magic tricks; to broaden the topic through the exploration of the meanings of the magic concept within the local context of Peru; to propose magic and illusion as an approach for experiments on perception and attention, behaviour and social relationships; and to propose a critical viewpoint on the seduction of technology and its application on the spectacle as a tool of persuasion and control. The proposals will be carried out in multidisciplinary work groups comprised by the author(s) and interested collaborators, with conceptual and technical advice from the teaching staff. Open call for collaborators: September 15, 2008. For information, complete call guidelines and submissions: interactivoslima at ccelima.org interactivos08 at medialab-prado.es http://medialab-prado.es/article/interactivos_lima08_magia_y_tecnologia http://www.ccelima.org/ -- Nerea García Garmendia Medialab Prado Área de Las Artes, Ayuntamiento de Madrid Plaza de las Letras Alameda, 15 28014 Madrid Tfno. +34 914 202 754 difusion at medialab-prado.es www.medialab-prado.es From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 14:41:25 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:41:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] OPERA ON RIVER IN KASHIMR Message-ID: <47e122a70807310211h1d0340c0w157e95adbde45e63@mail.gmail.com> DEAR ALL, YOU ARE INVITED TO A SHORT OPERA IN LUTON MELA 2008, U.K ( LUTON FESTIVAL 2008 ). TE VYETH ROOZ PAKKAN, ( THE RIVER JEHLUM MOVES ON ) WRITTEN AND DIRECTED BY INDER SALIM THE FESTIVL BEGINS FROM 12 -7 PM. ON 3RD OF AUGUST ............................................................................................. ENCLOSED IS A FRAGMENT OF TEXT IN ENGLISH . SONGS IN KASHMIRI BY DEEPALI WATTAL AND SAPNA KACHROO. DANCE BY GRETA MENDEZ, CONCEPTUAL DANCER LIVING IN LONDON, LOCAL ARTIST AND STUDENT ARE JOINING TOO. , R(i)ver is someone. It has two eyes, two ears, one nose, full face, playful body full of desire. It loves to be called by a name: Thames, Nile, Ganges, Rhine, Veth. This time it is Veth or Jehlum in Kasheer or Kashmir, which flows at its own speed, or flows with the flow of its ever changing civilizations? Its beginning is its own bluish tint, little viridian, little cerulean, and a folky gush of innocence. Its own past chooses to remain buried under the range of mountains. Legend sings that a watery monster once stifled it for thousands of years until a scientist sage punctured a stone in the North. So it gave birth to itself, it often dreams that day… R(i)ver is someone. It reflects blue of the blue sky, mischievous grey, peaceful white of the clouds, and invisible faces of gods above. Its womb has fish and a memory in it, and an electric wire too. It has a water within its water. It has a memory that brings it back to its beginning. It knows how not to disappoint those who named it; else how will the lovers akin to trees living on its banks learn how to realize the truest nature of ' the thirst' at roots. So some poets see a gender in it, and others see a fire of hell on its surface. For a mystic poet, it is a boat in-itself. R(i)ver is someone. A character on the stage, a voice of the voiceless, a piercing silence too. Its shimmer is its own mask with which it seduces the hesitant 'man' on its bank. Its once in a while angry swell is the most unpredictable face under its deceptive gaze. Although its ripples are as indigenous as proverbs of the language uttered by the people around it, but it does not complain if some sounds replaces other sounds akin to its own ripples. R(i)ver is someone. It carries our dirt like a Dalit to a final destination called sea. It carries our history and a moral faith to a labyrinth of cities where we are grappling with our contrived lives. It sheds a tea for each one of us. It knows our personal pain. It sings a song for all the oppressed of the world and calls us come back to earth's simplicity. R(i)iver is not someone if it is declared dead like Yammuna in Delhi. Fortunately, river Veth/Jehlum is still alive…flowing .......................................................................................... _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From sananth99 at gmail.com Sun Jul 27 11:52:32 2008 From: sananth99 at gmail.com (Ananth S) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:52:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] IMF and TB Message-ID: <70c502d20807262322v3a14399ci1b0989454a42b868@mail.gmail.com> Weekend Edition July 26 / 27, 2008 How the IMF Contributes to Rising TB Rates The Scourge of the IMF By ROBERT WEISSMAN http://www.counterpunch.org/weissman07262008.html Tuberculosis, a treatable disease, kills 1.7 million people a year worldwide. TB incidence, according to the World Health Organization seems to be correlated to broad social factors, like access to clean water and sanitation, HIV incidence and national health expenditures. A just published study in the journal PLoS (Public Library of Science) Medicine investigates the role of different possible explanatory factor: the International Monetary Fund (IMF). The researchers' study focuses on the period 1991 to 2003 for the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, a region for which there is robust data. The results: The researchers concluded "that IMF economic reform programs are strongly associated with rises in tuberculosis mortality rates in post-communist Eastern European and FSU [former Soviet Union] countries, even after correcting for potential selection bias, tuberculosis surveillance infrastructure, levels of economic development, urbanization, and HIV/AIDS." "We estimated an increase in tuberculosis mortality rates when countries participate in an IMF program, which was much greater than the reduction that would have been expected had the countries not participated in an IMF program. On the other hand, we estimated a decrease in tuberculosis mortality rates associated with exiting an IMF program." In other words: When countries entered IMF programs, TB rates went up. When the programs ended and countries escaped from IMF influence, TB rates went down. OK, but the region was in chaos after the fall of the Soviet Union. Economies crashed and per capita income plummeted. Crime rose, incarceration rates jumped, HIV spread. Aren't these the real factors behind rising TB rates? Explains Sanjay Basu of Yale University, one of the study authors: "First of all, not all of these countries in this region were dependent on the former Soviet Union. Many of them actually had an increase in GDP after the fall of the former Soviet Union. Several were not part of the trading bloc. And in some of the key countries where TB rates rose, we actually saw an increase in economic growth. So economic downturns could not explain, as the WHO itself has stated, the trends of tuberculosis in that regions. Something else was going on." "The reason we use such heavy statistics is precisely to factor in these other issues -- incarceration, HIV, changes to the economy, changes to the healthcare infrastructure. We found a statistically independent effect of the IMF. That's not to say that the IMF was the only cause of TB in this region. The economy, incarceration, HIV -- these are all very important, but those factors could not fully explain TB in the region." The PLoS study found that participating in an IMF program correlated with increases in tuberculosis incidence of 13.9 percent and an increase in TB mortality rates of 16.6 percent. Basu says that, if the study results are valid, they suggest "we would have averted tens of thousands of deaths and hundreds of thousands of new cases" if countries in the region had never entered IMF programs. The theory of the study authors is that IMF programs drive down healthcare spending, and this reduced investment in healthcare explains the rise in TB incidence and death. Basu emphasizes, correctly, that the issue is not so much the IMF directing countries to spend less on health. Rather, it imposes a set of policy constraints -- including overall limits on government spending, and needlessly low inflation targets -- that inevitably result in countries spending less on health. There are always variations between regions, but there is nothing about the PLoS researchers' story that suggests things are any different in Africa, the region where the IMF now exerts the most influence. Not surprisingly, the IMF has rejected the PLoS findings. "Severe methodological shortcomings limit the scope of these results and prevent any causal interpretation," asserts an IMF response that is much more subdued than comments from spokespeople. "The fundamental problem is that this study does not take properly into account that countries implement IMF-supported reforms in times of economic distress." Says the IMF response: "The authors do not take into account that the economic and social instability following the collapse of Soviet Union may have had a direct impact on TB incidence in the 21 transition economies considered in the study." The problem with this line of argument is that it is not true. The authors did take the economic and social instability into account. Can anything be done about IMF policies with such harmful impacts? Yes. The IMF is a human creation, not a force of nature. The United States Congress will next year have a unique opportunity to influence IMF policy. The IMF needs approval from the Congress to go ahead with plans to sell some of the gold it controls. This gold would be used to fund the IMF's administrative costs -- a new income stream the IMF desperately needs. Interest payments from middle-income countries previously paid for administrative costs, but these countries have paid back their loans in order to escape from IMF influence. As the U.S. Congress looks to approve gold sales to finance the IMF, it must insist that the IMF first end the mandates that effectively restrict countries' health spending, and force borrowing countries to implement a discredited market fundamentalist policy agenda. Robert Weissman is editor of the Washington, D.C.-based Multinational Monitor, and director of Essential Action.