From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: happening in Delhi, and that we did not have to buy an expensive plane ticket and worry about a rapidly dwindling set of dollar bills. So, the cost factor being brought into this argument is doubly perverse. You cannot argue first, that the event is colonialist and then that it would be better if the 'ex-colonized' such as us were kept out of it by holding it in some place geographically near to where you are, where we would never try and catch a flight to unless someone was paying for the ticket. We think it reveals some foresight on the part of the organizers to actually have platforms dispersed in four continents, so that people get a chance to participate even if they don't buy expensive plane tickets. As for your suggestion that the event have better online dissemination strategies, we agree that a discussion list for the platforms, as well as a more imaginative form of web presence on the part of Documenta XI would have helped. (Incidentally, the website - www.documenta.de - has begun to stream the Vienna presentations and the responses on their web site, with the Delhi ones to follow.) 3. The institutional setting of the location of Platform 2 in Delhi - The India Habitat Centre This has been addressed in the introductory remarks prior to the discussion of point 1. 4. The paucity of local participation This charge is not backed by any material evidence. There were five Indian featured panelists out of a total of twenty presentations from four continents. That means 25% of the featured presenters were Indians. The majority of Chairpersons and moderators were from India. And there was no paucity of Indian discussants after each of the presentations. For someone who was not present to pass judgement over the quantity of local participation in the event is very strange. 5. The lack of local back up and research What organizational problems may or may not have occurred due to the quality and level of local institutional back up and research is for the organisers of the event and the curatorial team to judge. We can say that we personally were contacted and met in New Delhi by a researcher working to assist the curatorial team as far back as the January 2000. We also know that this researcher met and had discussions with many other artists and practitioners in Delhi and other parts of India. We were pleasantly surprised to see the curatorial team well briefed about the local scene here, as a result of this and other inputs. 6. . The lack of attention to local concerns - and to the " the spiritual dimension of truth which underpins india's identity even today" At least four of the presentations, by Urvashi Butalia, Dilip Simeon, Shahid Amin and Rustom Bharucha - were specifically addressing difficult and contentious episodes in recent Indian history. By this count, India and concerns that could be called local in New Delhi got top billing. There have been reservations expressed in the discussion about the event on this list about the fact that many of the speakers from outside did not do more than offer a token obeisance to the specificities of history, society and culture in this part of the world. This is a general malaise, and has to do with the self-obsessive nature of much of intellectual production, due to which people are reluctant to productively engage with those elements of experience or discourse that are not immediately available to them. This is more of a problem in the west than it is in intellectual circles in India. Indian intellectuals happen to know more about Europe and North America, than most European and North American Intellectuals know about India. This 'asymmetry of ignorance' that has to do with a skewed intimacy with European intellectual culture and the English language is one of those legacies of colonialism which contributes to the ascent of the Indian intellectual in a global market of ideas. He/she is and is able to appear in some ways far more sophisticated. However, the average Indian intellectual would be just as ignorant or unaware of matters pertaining to Africa, or Latin America, or West, Central and Southeast Asia or even Australia. Intellectuals in India are often pleasantly surprised by how well his/her African counterpart knows the history of Indian cinema, (because of the long history of the hegemony of Indian popular cinema in Africa) but would be hard put to speak about any of the many African cinema cultures with any degree of knowledge or understanding. This is an instance of a never ending chain of the 'asymmetry of ignorance'. As for "the spiritual dimension of truth which underpins india's identity even today", we find any normative statements about 'India's Identity' flawed by their inherent essentialism. To claim, for or on behalf of any culture, greater or lesser reservoirs of 'spirituality' or 'reason' or 'aesthetic sensitivity' is to do violence to the complex and contradictory nature of cultural history. It is also to posit, what in our opinion is, always a false boundary. We have never been able to get a satisfactory answer to the question as to where the boundaries of India's identity lie, and where the boundary of a non-Indian, or western identity begins. with warm regards Raqs Media Collective (Jeebesh Bagchi, Monica Narula, Shuddhabrata Sengupta) -- Shuddhabrata Sengupta SARAI:The New Media Initiative Centre for the Study of Developing Societies 29 Rajpur Road Delhi 110 054 India Phone : (00 91 11) 3960040 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: happening in Delhi, and that we did not have to buy an expensive plane ticket and worry about a rapidly dwindling set of dollar bills. So, the cost factor being brought into this argument is doubly perverse. You cannot argue first, that the event is colonialist and then that it would be better if the 'ex-colonized' such as us were kept out of it by holding it in some place geographically near to where you are, where we would never try and catch a flight to unless someone was paying for the ticket. We think it reveals some foresight on the part of the organizers to actually have platforms dispersed in four continents, so that people get a chance to participate even if they don't buy expensive plane tickets. As for your suggestion that the event have better online dissemination strategies, we agree that a discussion list for the platforms, as well as a more imaginative form of web presence on the part of Documenta XI would have helped. (Incidentally, the website - www.documenta.de - has begun to stream the Vienna presentations and the responses on their web site, with the Delhi ones to follow.) 3. The institutional setting of the location of Platform 2 in Delhi - The India Habitat Centre This has been addressed in the introductory remarks prior to the discussion of point 1. 4. The paucity of local participation This charge is not backed by any material evidence. There were five Indian featured panelists out of a total of twenty presentations from four continents. That means 25% of the featured presenters were Indians. The majority of Chairpersons and moderators were from India. And there was no paucity of Indian discussants after each of the presentations. For someone who was not present to pass judgement over the quantity of local participation in the event is very strange. 5. The lack of local back up and research What organizational problems may or may not have occurred due to the quality and level of local institutional back up and research is for the organisers of the event and the curatorial team to judge. We can say that we personally were contacted and met in New Delhi by a researcher working to assist the curatorial team as far back as the January 2000. We also know that this researcher met and had discussions with many other artists and practitioners in Delhi and other parts of India. We were pleasantly surprised to see the curatorial team well briefed about the local scene here, as a result of this and other inputs. 6. . The lack of attention to local concerns - and to the " the spiritual dimension of truth which underpins india's identity even today" At least four of the presentations, by Urvashi Butalia, Dilip Simeon, Shahid Amin and Rustom Bharucha - were specifically addressing difficult and contentious episodes in recent Indian history. By this count, India and concerns that could be called local in New Delhi got top billing. There have been reservations expressed in the discussion about the event on this list about the fact that many of the speakers from outside did not do more than offer a token obeisance to the specificities of history, society and culture in this part of the world. This is a general malaise, and has to do with the self-obsessive nature of much of intellectual production, due to which people are reluctant to productively engage with those elements of experience or discourse that are not immediately available to them. This is more of a problem in the west than it is in intellectual circles in India. Indian intellectuals happen to know more about Europe and North America, than most European and North American Intellectuals know about India. This 'asymmetry of ignorance' that has to do with a skewed intimacy with European intellectual culture and the English language is one of those legacies of colonialism which contributes to the ascent of the Indian intellectual in a global market of ideas. He/she is and is able to appear in some ways far more sophisticated. However, the average Indian intellectual would be just as ignorant or unaware of matters pertaining to Africa, or Latin America, or West, Central and Southeast Asia or even Australia. Intellectuals in India are often pleasantly surprised by how well his/her African counterpart knows the history of Indian cinema, (because of the long history of the hegemony of Indian popular cinema in Africa) but would be hard put to speak about any of the many African cinema cultures with any degree of knowledge or understanding. This is an instance of a never ending chain of the 'asymmetry of ignorance'. As for "the spiritual dimension of truth which underpins india's identity even today", we find any normative statements about 'India's Identity' flawed by their inherent essentialism. To claim, for or on behalf of any culture, greater or lesser reservoirs of 'spirituality' or 'reason' or 'aesthetic sensitivity' is to do violence to the complex and contradictory nature of cultural history. It is also to posit, what in our opinion is, always a false boundary. We have never been able to get a satisfactory answer to the question as to where the boundaries of India's identity lie, and where the boundary of a non-Indian, or western identity begins. with warm regards Raqs Media Collective (Jeebesh Bagchi, Monica Narula, Shuddhabrata Sengupta) -- Shuddhabrata Sengupta SARAI:The New Media Initiative Centre for the Study of Developing Societies 29 Rajpur Road Delhi 110 054 India Phone : (00 91 11) 3960040 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: When I read Catherine David�s texts before I came to see the documenta, I had already gotten the impression that she was resisting works from the other parts of the world. She had used two or three terms like �I�m not interested in culture shopping,� or �I�m not going to have an ethnic feast,� and had said that works from other cultures appear in Europe as exotic or even as neocolonial if they are not contextualized. I was not sure whether this was a defense mechanism, or if she was really thinking these things. After having had some dialogs with her, I think that this is just part of a general preoccupation, so I�m more respectful now of her position. David does seem to have one very strong inclination as an art historian and art critic, which is to contextualize historically. She does not want to show any art object, even a Western object, without making sure that its historicity is apparent in some way. It must be available to the viewer and sufficiently contextualized either by supporting information or by supporting works. I�m basically very sympathetic to this curatorial position. The other preoccupation she has is trying to resist commodification, reification, as it is occurring in the Western art market. I think that the reification of the art object is not the only way that reification takes place, and I did comment upon this to her. Reification cannot be avoided: whatever is put out in an exhibition like the documenta is already reified, and the documenta itself is the most reified art event of Europe or of the world (it has private sponsors, and is seen everywhere as an advertising image, etc.). There is no way to overcome that. One can, however, try to resist it by keeping the documenta from becoming an art festival for the galleries, and I think David has done that. In relation to the �100 Days 100 Guests� program, I raised the question as to whether the exchange through discourse isn�t too easy of a way out. It has of course its advantages: people use a similar code in discourse, which allows 100 guests from everywhere to communicate, and allows a general audience to listen and make sense of it all. However, discourse and intellectual life are also prone to a certain degree of commodification. It is an easy packet to get Geeta Kapur, Gayatri Spivak, and Edward Sa�to Kassel. I see it as a problem that one encapsulates entire cultures by expelling their art works while at the same time including their discourses. It�s like substituing an easily transportable commodity for one which is more difficult and more expensive to install. I think that David�s point of view is that, though a piece of art may sit in the exhibition and look like an exotic object, by the very nature of the people she invites, issues will be raised, the documenta, its concept, and the Euro-American situation may be critiqued, so that contextualizing and historicising is already taking place. I think this is a fair assumption. One statement which she clearly made in the introduction to the shortguide, is that in the art of many non-Western cultures there are local modernities, but not what one might call advanced or avantgarde works. The dynamic, she says, is in other forms of expression: in cinema, theater, literature, music, and in the oral traditions. There are cases in which this is true. For instance she has said that in Iran, cinema is the most advanced art form, and we all seem to have the same impression. But I wouldn�t say that this is true for India, for Indonesia, Korea, nor the Philippines, because I know that in these countries, the visual arts have a very definite positioning within the cultural complex. The same is true for Singapore and Thailand, and certainly South Africa (where David took Kentridge from), has one of the most vital visual art scenes. And Cuba�s, as we know, is one of the most advanced in South America, in terms not only of the production of art, but having become the point of convergence for the Latin American avantgarde. I have actually had quite a lot of problems with this assumption. Even though she wants to open up the critical discourse on art, she is still protecting the nature of the art object as it has developed in the West. Also, she is more comfortable addressing the other arts, where strong intervention from her is not required. She is interested in cinema, but she is not a curator of film. Literature, music, and theatre are not her fields either, so she isn�t held responsible when she says there is a greater dynamic in these areas. It is easier for her to protect a certain ground where she is very particular in what she wants to show. David is very stringent and has a clear idea of where the avantgarde comes out of modernity. She has narrowed it down from the general historical avantgarde to what she calles �critical art.� This is a critical intervention into the avantgarde itself. She understands very clearly the ways in which artists have intervened in, disrupted, and interrogated urban lives, society, and contemporary history, artistic positions commonly found in Europe and the USA, and to an extent in Latin America. She is much more confident and convinced about these, and the �rest� she is literally seeing as simply the rest. In response to her comment that there exists �elsewhere� some other dynamic, I said to her that she is speaking as though it is an abstract dynamic. I believe this is a shortcut, and not a real investigation of the cultures involved. One of the reasons for her position, is that in these other art forms, (music, performing arts, cinema, etc.), the axis between the traditional form and the popular, urban form is more easily located. And that is what usually interests the Western intellectual, critic or curator. One thing I would like to add is that, though I come from India, I�m no longer interesed in repeatedly telling European curators that they must include Asian art in their exhibitions. There is a certain kind of parallel developement of regions now, and that�s for the best. I�m not saying that regionalism is important; what I�m saying is that there are parallel expositions and parallel discourses, and it�s not necessary to have everything come to Europe or go to America. If it happens, then good: it means that there is a greater balance of exchange, that a new form of internationalism is developing. On the other hand, it doesn�t seem to trouble me very much anymore. One can now be sure that there will be something in Kwangju, or in Queensland, or in Johannesburg. Sao Paulo has always had an interesting viewpoint. I would not be very concerned that the documenta X doesn�t have more Asian or African artists. Of course, it would have been a more complete understanding of contemporary art, and if she is interested in the historical avantgarde then she should have taken into account the historical avantgarde in different parts of the world. If she means to present just the Euro-American avantgarde with supplementary discourses, it remains just one point of view, and she and other curators will have to go elsewhere to see what�s happening in the world. If David said that she was going to present a resume of contemporary culture, this is not represented by the actual exhibition. But, if she claims to be interested in the deconstruction of cultural practices through very rapid (and often destructive) processes of urban acculturation, then I think that she has made her point. In my mind, she has created a phenomenology of urban culture in the European-American context, concentrated (if you have noticed the works) on negative species, on species of destruction and death, of abuse and marginilization of peoples and populations in Western cultures. There is definetely a point of view on which she is putting a critical edge. However, the objects she recognizes come out of the Western avantgarde. She doesn�t seem to recognize other objects, or when she does recognize them, she fears that they are �exotic.� To some degree, as a European curator she makes a very exclusive choice in the matter, and that choice is based on criteria that come out of Western modernism. How radically she makes her choices, or whatever cutting edge she tries to give the exhibition, she is still in an exclusionary mode rather than in an inclusive one. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: To the casual observer, Microsoft seems to have changed its ways. Closer inspection shows that it remains a heavy-handed monopolist THREE things have changed for Microsoft, the world�s biggest software company, since it was declared an �abusive monopolist� and ordered to be split in two by Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson last year. After an appeals-court hearing in February, which went well for the company, the threat of break-up seems to have receded. Second, Microsoft has devised a new strategy, called .NET, under which it will try to recast itself as a provider of Internet-based software services rather than PC-based products, and thus grab a large share of the potentially vast new market for �web services�. And third, even though its profits and share price have held up far better than they have at technology companies that depend on hardware sales or telecoms-equipment orders, Microsoft has been doing its best to seem to have abandoned its old monopolistic behaviour. It is not that Microsoft admits any wrongdoing in its antitrust case, you understand. But it has twigged that good behaviour may undermine Judge Jackson�s contention that it is predatory and untrustworthy�and might encourage the appeals court to overturn his ruling. Playing well with others also fits with Microsoft�s new software strategy, which, unusually, depends heavily on open (rather than proprietary) standards and on co-operation with other software makers. So has Microsoft really become a kinder, gentler company? There is some evidence that it has. Take, for instance, its long-standing opposition to �open-source� software, in which the source code revealing a program�s inner workings is made freely available. Microsoft has only ever made its own source code available to a handful of close allies. Last month, however, the firm announced that it would grant around 1,000 of its largest corporate customers access to 95% of the source code of its Windows 2000 and Windows XP operating systems. Unlike true open-source software, whose openness means that bugs can be more easily found and fixed, the Windows source code will be made available only on condition that it is not modified. Even so, it will help large firms to ensure that their own software works smoothly with Windows. Another area in which Microsoft seems to have taken a step towards the co-operative, open approach of the Internet is in the development of new standards for web services, which have such quirky names as XML, SOAP, UDDI and WSDL. Microsoft is generally deemed to have been a well-behaved participant in the standard-setting process�in marked contrast to the old Microsoft, which often produced its own incompatible versions of industry standards. This time around, says David Winer, an independent software engineer who is working on the SOAP standard, the company seems to have realised that the emergence of unified standards is in its own best interests. That does not necessarily mean that Microsoft is a willing convert, however. �I think the world changed, and it�s sucking them along with it,� says Mr Winer. In order to convince its rivals that it really does want their products to work together, Microsoft recently hired Dan�l Lewin to act as its ambassador to Silicon Valley, where he has worked for 25 years at several firms, including Apple and NeXT. Mr Lewin insists that, when it comes to interoperability with other firms� products and embracing open standards, Microsoft has changed. �This is a fundamental movement,� he says. Another sign of change is Microsoft�s new advertising campaign, in which the company�s usual po-facedness is replaced by a more humorous approach, including a hitherto unseen ability to laugh at itself. One ad pokes fun at Clippy, the annoying paperclip character that pops up to provide help to users of Office, and jokes that the XP in Office XP, the latest version of the software, stands for �ex-paperclip�. For a company that never normally admits mistakes and championed the use of the word �issue� in place of �bug�, this is quite a change. No laughing matter Yet despite all this, there are good reasons to be sceptical about Microsoft�s intentions (or even ability) to reform itself. Granting limited access to the Windows source code, for example, may help to soften Microsoft�s image, but it is a far cry from embracing the open-source model. Microsoft has falsely portrayed itself as the champion of open standards in the past, notably during its �browser war� with Netscape, only to revert to its old tactics later. Might the company not simply be waiting for XML, SOAP and the other new standards to take off, ask its critics, before hijacking them by creating its own proprietary versions? Such fears were heightened last month when Microsoft announced a batch of services, codenamed HailStorm, that form part of its .NET strategy. Just as Windows provides PC programmers with access to basic functions, such as drawing on the screen or accessing the network, HailStorm will provide similar �building block� functions (e-mail, instant messaging and so on) for programmers to incorporate into the software for their web-based services. The idea is that users will sign up with Microsoft for HailStorm services and pay a monthly fee; this will enable them to use web services that rely on HailStorm�s building blocks. Microsoft hopes that this will make .NET an attractive platform for programmers, and thus encourage them to adopt .NET rather than the approach based on Java, a programming language that is being promoted by Microsoft�s rivals, chief among them Sun Microsystems. Already, American Express, eBay, Expedia and Groove Networks have all announced plans to build .NET web services using HailStorm. What is worrying, however, is that HailStorm will be closely integrated with Windows XP, the next version of Windows, so that once a user has logged into Windows no further action is required to make use of HailStorm services. Indeed, the log-on and registration systems for Windows XP and HailStorm will be the same. Microsoft will, in other words, be able to turn millions of Windows users into HailStorm users, and to offer programmers an enormous potential audience for .NET web services. Similarly, by funnelling millions of users into HailStorm from HotMail and MSN, its Internet properties, Microsoft may be able to sign up as many as 100m HailStorm users by the end of 2003. The firm thus has a golden opportunity to exploit the dominance of Windows to ensure that .NET takes off. It is, as one analyst puts it, �vintage Microsoft�. The company is up to its old tricks in other ways, too. Windows XP contains several new functions, including media-playback and remote-troubleshooting features, that previously required the purchase of additional software. Makers of such software may now face the same fate as Netscape�Microsoft can extinguish them whenever it chooses. Windows XP also includes the latest version of Microsoft�s music and video player, Windows Media Player 8, which will not work with previous versions of Windows. As well as encouraging users to switch to Windows XP, it contains a new music-compression format called WMA, which is being positioned as an alternative to the popular MP3 format. Microsoft argues, with good reason, that WMA has several technical advantages over MP3, including smaller file-sizes; but the fact remains that Microsoft is using the clout of Windows to promote its own playback software and music format. The parallels with the Netscape case, in which Microsoft used Windows to promote its web browser, are ominously clear. In short, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that, if Microsoft has changed at all, it has done so only superficially. Inside the software industry�s 800-pound gorilla, the heart of an incorrigible monopolist beats still. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: June 26, 2001 Freelancers Win in Case of Work Kept in Databases By LINDA GREENHOUSE WASHINGTON, June 25 � The Supreme Court ruled today that a group of newspaper and magazine publishers infringed the copyrights of freelance contributors by making their articles accessible without permission in electronic databases after publication. As a result, the publishers, including The New York Times, face the prospect of paying substantial damages to the six freelancers who brought the lawsuit in 1993 and perhaps to thousands of others who have joined in three class-action lawsuits against providers of electronic databases, which the court also found liable for copyright infringement today. The court did not rule today on a remedy for the violation that it found in a 7-to-2 majority opinion by Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. The case now returns to Federal District Court in Manhattan. In a 1999 ruling against the publishers, the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit did not address the remedy issue. There are a number of unresolved questions that were not part of the Supreme Court case and that may take months or years to resolve, lawyers involved in the case said today. The Times and the other publishers, Time Inc. and Newsday, had warned the Supreme Court that a finding of liability would lead them to remove freelance contributions from the databases, a threat that the court appeared to have found something of an irritant. "Speculation about future harms is no basis for this court to shrink authorial rights," Justice Ginsburg said. Referring to the licensing arrangements that are commonly used to apportion royalties in the music industry, she said the parties to the case "may draw on numerous models for distributing copyrighted words and remunerating authors for their distribution." Arthur Sulzberger Jr., chairman of The New York Times Company and publisher of The Times, said today that the company "will now undertake the difficult and sad process of removing significant portions from its electronic historical archive." He added, "Unfortunately, today's decision means that everyone loses." The Times Company said in a statement that freelance writers who wanted their articles to remain in the electronic archives should notify the company. Since the mid-1990's, The Times and most other publishers that use freelance work have required authors to waive their electronic republication rights. For that reason, the decision today has little prospective importance in terms of changing current industry practice. But liability for past infringement could be considerable, depending in part on how the lower courts deal with complex statute of limitations issues. It is not clear, for example, whether there has been a new infringement each time a freelance article has been made available for viewing on a user's computer screen. Jonathan Tasini, president of the National Writers Union and the lead plaintiff in the lawsuit, said in a statement, "Now it's time for the media industry to pay creators their fair share and let's sit down and negotiate over this today." In 1993, the union, which has 7,000 members, set up a "publication rights clearinghouse" through which writers can register their work and publishers can track copyright ownership and payment obligations. The case, New York Times Company v. Tasini, No. 00-201, dealt only with freelance work; publishers own the copyright on articles produced by staff members. The three publishers in the case license their contents to Lexis/Nexis, an electronic database by which individual articles are retrieved in a text-only format. The Times has a separate arrangement with another defendant in the case, University Microfilms International, which reproduces Times material in other electronic formats that also result in the display of individual articles. It was this feature � that what the electronic user retrieves, views or downloads is an individual article, divorced from its original context � that was most significant for the court's legal analysis. The case called on the court to interpret a section of the Copyright Act of 1976 that gives newspapers and magazines, which hold a collective copyright in the entirety of each issue, the right also to publish "any revision of that collective work." The question for the court was whether the electronic version was a revision or something else, in which case the copyright on individual articles would revert to any freelance contributors who had not agreed to give up that right. The publishers argued that the electronic versions were simply a technologically more sophisticated version of the printed issues that should be seen as a mere "revision" under the "media-neutral" approach of the Copyright Act. In a dissenting opinion, Justice John Paul Stevens, who was joined by Justice Stephen G. Breyer, said there was nothing more to the case than that. "Neither the conversion of the print publishers' collective works from printed to electronic form, nor the transmission of those electronic versions of the collective works to the electronic databases, nor even the actions of the electronic databases once they receive those electronic versions does anything to deprive those electronic versions of their status as mere `revisions' of the original collective works," Justice Stevens said. But Justice Ginsburg's majority opinion said the publishers' "encompassing construction" of their republication privilege was "unacceptable." She said the massive database, encompassing many published issues, "no more constitutes a `revision' of each constituent edition than a 400-page novel quoting a sonnet in passing would represent a `revision' of that poem." The electronic databases are not simply modern versions of old-fashioned microfilm, Justice Ginsburg said. Even though a microfilm roll combines multiple editions, "the user first encounters the article in context," she said, in contrast to someone calling up an article on their computer, where individual articles appear "disconnected from their original context." She said the principle of media neutrality "should protect the authors' rights in the individual articles to the extent those articles are now presented individually, outside the collective work context, within the databases' new media." The court may soon have a chance to expand on the role of context that Justice Ginsburg emphasized. National Geographic said today that it would soon file an appeal to the Supreme Court from a ruling by the federal appeals court in Atlanta, which said that a 30-disc CD-ROM set that reproduced every page of every issue of the magazine was a new work rather than a revision, even though each article appeared in its original context. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Cracking the Code of Online Censorship By JENNIFER 8. LEE EVERY year the Electronic Frontier Foundation hands out its Pioneer Awards to people who have played crucial roles in the history of technology. Recipients have included visionaries like Ivan Sutherland, creator of some of the first computer graphics programs; Douglas C. Engelbart, an inventor of the mouse; and Linus Torvalds, inventor of the popular Linux operating system. This year one of the three winners was Seth Finkelstein, an activist who decrypts filtering programs, the software used by private companies, libraries and schools to block out undesirable sites. As a founder of the Censorware Project, an anti-filtering advocacy group, Mr. Finkelstein has influenced public debate and legal decisions, including a First Amendment case on filtering policy at a public library in Virginia. But most people have probably never heard of him, and until recently that is the way Mr. Finkelstein, a reclusive 36-year-old computer programmer, wanted it. Over the last six years he has spent hundreds of hours decrypting the blacklists of popular Web filtering programs like Cyber Patrol and X-Gear. Most filters work by sending out programs that comb the Web for banned words and then produce a list of Web sites containing those words. Those sites are compiled into the closely guarded blacklists that Mr. Finkelstein tries to uncover. But don't call him a hacker. He gets prickly when he hears that word. Instead he describes himself as a civil-libertarian software engineer. Mr. Finkelstein contends that filtering is not only inherently flawed but that in many cases it even acts as a deliberate censor. Many of the Web sites on the blacklists � feminist sites, gay and lesbian information sites, health sites and religious sites � are more political than pornographic in nature. "This is inevitable," Mr. Finkelstein said. "Once you give censors free rein, they go after sex. They go after sex education. They go after feminism. They go after gay rights." The makers of filtering software say that criticism of their products' accuracy is old news and they are addressing the problems. "Technology evolves," said Susan Getgood, vice president for home and education markets at SurfControl, a maker of Web and e- mail filtering products. "It is a long way from the Model T to the BMW Z3 and a long way from the early days of filtering to the products on the market today." But Mr. Finkelstein argues that even if filters were free of political bias, they would block some sites in error because they cannot understand context. Most of the software no longer mistakenly blocks sites involving breast cancer or chicken breast recipes, but much of the blocking remains problematic nonetheless. Mr. Finkelstein said he was now analyzing a list that blocked the National Institutes of Health's Spanish-language site on diabetes. The Spanish word hora, which means hour and is used often on the page, also happens to be a Swedish word for prostitute. "Computers are extremely stupid," he said. "Talk to any computer scientists, not the marketing people. They'll tell you artificial intelligence cannot determine context." Mr. Finkelstein grew up in the Bronx, where his interest in cryptography was fostered by Sherlock Holmes tales and newspaper cryptograms. He studied mathematics and physics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology with the goal of becoming a theoretical physicist. When he was rejected by all the top graduate physics programs, he said, he turned to computer programming as a job that paid the bills. But he finds that his technical skills have more meaning in urgent social debates. Mr. Finkelstein said he began cracking the filtering blacklists in 1995 because he was concerned about how the software was being promoted as an alternative to government censorship. "There was a big social campaign among civil libertarians to talk up and tout censorware as both a legal and social argument against government censorship," he said. "While I did not oppose the legal argument, I thought strongly that the social campaign was a huge mistake.` To crack a filter, Mr. Finkelstein engages in a dance of decryption that is part mathematics, part intuition and part brute force. In 1998, his blend of technical skills and political convictions helped the American Civil Liberties Union win a federal lawsuit challenging the library Internet filtering policy in Loudoun County, Va., on First Amendment grounds. Among the sites that the organization said the library blocked was an informative site on safe sex and the American Association of University Women's Maryland site. A federal judge ruled against the library. The A.C.L.U. and the American Library Association have also filed suits challenging the Children's Internet Protection Act, passed by Congress last year. The law requires that libraries receiving federal financing and discounts for Internet service under certain federal statutes must install filtering software. Mr. Finkelstein's work exposes him to the threat of legal action, too. The Digital Millennium Copyright Act generally forbids the circumvention of digital encryptions, although one of the exemptions granted by the Librarian of Congress is for the decryption of blacklists, largely because of Mr. Finkelstein's lobbying. But even if decrypting the blacklists may be legal, releasing them to the public may not be, since they are a form of intellectual property. He said his concerns about the potential for legal trouble were validated when two computer programmers who posted a program that could circumvent Cyber Patrol were sued by Mattel, which was then the parent company of the software's maker. In a settlement last year the programmers agreed to stop posting it on the Web. So Mr. Finkelstein had until recently worked relatively anonymously from his cluttered apartment in Cambridge, Mass., passing his information to journalists, lawyers and other activists to publicize. Much of his work involves analyzing and documenting incongruities in filtering software. In a report on SmartFilter that he wrote a couple of years ago, for example, Mr. Finkelstein pointed out that it blocked WrestlePages ("The best source for wrestling news"); MotoWorld.com, a motorcycle sport magazine produced by ESPN; and Affirmation: Gay and Lesbian Mormons, a support site. Company officials at Secure Computing (news/quote), which makes SmartFilter, declined to be interviewed about the software but released a statement. "It is not technology such as SmartFilter that makes the rules; it is organizations themselves," it said. Mr. Finkelstein is particularly annoyed that language translation sites are blocked simply because they can circumvent filters. Visitors to a language translation site can enter the Web address of a banned site and then see a translation at a different address. "It shows that censorware is about control, not filtering," he said. So Mr. Finkelstein intends to continue decrypting, as he scoffs at claims that computer technology is close to acquiring the contextual intelligence needed to identify inappropriate sites. "It will be a phenomenal advance," he said of contextual ability. "They will get the equivalent of a Nobel Prize. They will not be selling it in a tawdry program for a couple of hundred dollars." From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: "The best guide yet on a subject of central importance to anyone interested in the future of media, and the growing marriage between art and science....The collection is historically significant, given that nobody has ever woven together the different threads, thoughts and impulses that become multimedia, a new form both of media and culture.... The book flows skillfully from one idea to the next, each section building on the one that preceded it." - Jon Katz, Slashdot "In the Norton Anthology tradition, Packer and Jordan bring together seminal contributions that artists and scientists have made to the field of computer-human interaction... An evocative whirlwind tour through 100 years of work... Excellent..." - S. Joy Mountford, Wired "[MULTIMEDIA is] a key source book in the field of art, science and technology. This book is excellent in all respects." - Annick Bureaud, Leonardo Digital Reviews "Readers interested in the history of multimedia should be enthralled by this collection of hard-to-find essays.... A remarkable blending of past and present, these essays remind us that today's wondrous inventions didn't just spring into existence out of nothingness." - Booklist MULTIMEDIA: FROM WAGNER TO VIRTUAL REALITY Table of Contents Foreword by William Gibson Overture by Randall Packer and Ken Jordan I. Integration 1. Richard Wagner, "Outlines of the Artwork of the Future" 2. F. T. Marinetti, Bruno Corra, Emilio Settimelli, Arnaldo Ginna, Giacomo Balla, Remo Chiti, "The Futurist Cinema" 3. L�l�holy-Nagy, "Theater, Circus, Variety" 4. Richard Higgins, "Intermedia" 5. Billy Kl�"The Great Northeastern Power Failure" 6. Nam June Paik, "Cybernated Art" and "Art and Satellite" II. Interactivity 7. Norbert Wiener, "Cybernetics in History" 8. J.C.R. Licklider, "Man-Computer Symbiosis" 9. Douglas Engelbart, "Augmenting Human Intellect: A Conceptual Framework" 10. John Cage, "Diary: Audience 1966" 11. Roy Ascott, "Behaviourist Art and the Cybernetic Vision" 12. Myron Krueger, "Responsive Environments" 13. Alan Kay, "User Interface: A Personal View" III. Hypermedia 14. Vannevar Bush, "As We May Think" 15. Ted Nelson, excerpt from Computer Lib/Dream Machines 16. Alan Kay and Adele Goldberg, "Personal Dynamic Media" 17. Marc Canter, "The New Workstation: CD ROM Authoring Systems" 18. Tim Berners-Lee, "Information Management: A Proposal" 19. George Landow and Paul Delany, "Hypertext, Hypermedia and Literary Studies: The State of the Art" IV. Immersion 20. Morton Heilig, "The Cinema of the Future" 21. Ivan Sutherland, "The Ultimate Display" 22. Scott Fisher, "Virtual Interface Environments" 23. William Gibson, "Academy Leader" 24. Marcos Novak, "Liquid Architectures in Cyberspace" 25. Daniel Sandin, Thomas DeFanti, and Carolina Cruz-Neira, "A Room with a View" V. Narrativity 26. William Burroughs, "The Future of the Novel" 27. Allan Kaprow, "Untitled Guidelines for Happenings" 28. Bill Viola, "Will There Be Condominiums in Data Space?" 29. Lynn Hershman, "The Fantasy Beyond Control" 30. Roy Ascott, "Is There Love in the Telematic Embrace?" 31. Pavel Curtis, "Mudding: Social Phenomena in Text-Based Virtual Realities" 32. Pierre L�, "The Art and Architecture of Cyberspace" -- Monica Narula Sarai:The New Media Initiative 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi 110 054 www.sarai.net From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: is the technical-programming team and the other is composed of media practitioners and researchers. While the techie team has taken apart the hardware to explain how it all works and have ensured that the Linux operating system and various free software that are being used are running smoothly, the team of old and new media practitioners have imparted a variety of skills. These include a knowledge and facility with the software of course, but also and very importantly, the opening out of modes of narrative and reflection upon one's experiences and environment. So there were sessions in which photographs were analysed, stories written singly and collaboratively, sounds recorded, soundscapes developed, the economic and social layers within the basti unpeeled, and so on. The software and the media tools that were available were: drawing sheets, crayons, simple audio recorders, an instamatic camera, a scanner, and GIMP and Star Office on a Gnome desktop with innumerable games! (now Audacity - a sound editing software - has also been added) This process that we all went through was exciting and fulfilling for all of us - participants and practitioners, but during this we faced a number of what can be termed as problems as far as appropriate technology is concerned. The games that the participants played, even though very useful in making them comfortable with the keyboard and great fun, were unable to speak to them of their personal experience of mobility, space and time. Basically there were no familiar cultural referents in the design. The even bigger problem was that in the process of learning text, image and sound editing, their descriptions and understanding of an experience became fragmented. The software began to take over the complex web of imagination, and began to direct them in fairly unidirectional ways. This is because it expects of you to represent your experience, or your space, in only one media at a time. The mode in which they described their experience of space and time of their everyday routine, was a complex web of images, sounds and narrations. These narrations, in the speaking and in the writing, portrayed different levels of intensities. The chaos and the immediacy of the spoken narration was brought into order in the act of writing. For example, if the spoken text describing a road accident gave a very visualized rendering of the incident with a complex soundscape, the written text would be not only much more ordered, but it would also bring in the self of the writer in very direct ways. In that sense, the registers of representation would change with the media of narration. But the fact is that if one is to truly "experience" the narrative of the incident as an audience, it would best emerge when all the narrations are made available to us. And this probably holds true for the creator as well. It can be argued that this fragmentation will lessen once there is a greater facility with using software, or by using specifically multi media software, like Director for example. Personally, as someone who has been educated as a filmmaker and has worked as one, and thus comfortable in thinking about sound, image and text in connected ways, I still find my work on a computer unable to become adequately woven together. And where software like Director is concerned, we cannot use it as we are working on configurations for the community which are low-cost, as also inspired and informed by the free software model. This is very pertinent as community media labs cannot afford to buy expensive software - as a matter of fact we have also been working on finding out low-cost hardware solutions as well - nor can they be pirated as NASSCOM, India's software 'police' organisation, is working overtime to ensure that. But more importantly, we feel that the ideas that invigorate the free software model: sharing, collaboration, open distribution and modification, are ideas that are part of the philosophical basis of the CyberMohalla project. Although here I must add that there is one worrying aspect of much of the software design that is happening within the free software model - too often it merely replicates what proprietary software does, and does not seek a fundamentally different perceptual experience of the software. The argument for this is obvious - there is need to prove that free software can do it as well - but it can still lead to a stilling of newer experiential models of software, newer understandings of interfaces. Yet another problem: It seemed to us that the collaborative nature of describing a collective experience or space that the participants were very comfortable with in oral renditions began to get very individuated. In the normal course of the day, while they would share all their other resources - such as food, transport money etc. - they would not share their files. I cannot definitely say that this is due to the ways software makes you relate to them, but we are wondering if that may have a role to play. After all, in all their oral narratives, many voices jostled together to express an experience� So when we media practitioners began to discuss this with the programmers, we started thinking about "what are the different possible software structures that can emerge from this problem?" The conceptual derivative that has emerged for us - by which creativity and expressivity can be adequately addressed - is the notion of "interlinked media", where image, sound and text (spoken and written) are seen as part of an unravelable web within the narration of an experience. This is the primary experience from which the Coding Collaboration note emerged, and here the terms of collaboration are not between programmers and other programmers but between programmers and participants, programmers and practitioners. The participants here, and in this case completely marginal to the digital wave (sometimes conceptualized as those on the other side of the digital divide), have given rise to an enigmatic problem. The response to this problem could give rise to technological modifications which are unexpected. -- Monica Narula Sarai:The New Media Initiative 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi 110 054 www.sarai.net From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Finally, Kiran walked in and told the most remarkable story of all. From her classroom they could not see what was going on, their windows didn' t face the WTC. But they saw people running in the streets. When she announced to the class of 13-year-olds that perhaps it was an accident since the cause was unknown, one kid pointed out that it was 9:30 in the morning, it was two separate incidents, it was obviously on purpose. Another said maybe it was the Puerto Ricans from Vieques (that' s the island where the US Navy practices bombing and the site of recent protests). When Kiran left the class to go to the other side of the building to see for herself she saw one of the one of the towers come down. Fellow teachers were talking about attacks on the Pentagon and in Pittsburgh. A parent came screaming down the hall: the planes are coming, the planes are coming. from www.chalomumbai.com --------------------------------- Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information inYahoo! News. --0-1889309596-1000408402=:6625 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
On Tuesday, September 11
 By: Rehan Ansari
 September 13,2001

I woke up this morning to an absolutely gorgeous blue day outside my window in Brooklyn, New York and hysterical voices over the television. As I got out of my room, a housemate, Mark, walked in and said the World Trade Center Towers were burning and one of them had collapsed. I went with him to the television screaming in his room and within minutes saw the other twin tower give way. The event on the screen was so filmi, it didn't register.

The doorbell rang frantically. It was Gabriel, a young woman asking for Heidi, another housemate. They both work for the mayor's office and September 11 being municipal election day, they were supervising polling booths and assigned Wall St. She had seen the WTC burning and had immediately started moving away from the area. She walked from Fulton Street in the financial district over the Brooklyn Bridge to this house in Fort Greene in Brooklyn (a walk that should been an hour-long stroll in normal circumstances).

She was intensely worried that Heidi had not come back nor phoned her safety. Since the time she had left the area, the 110 storey buildings had essentially collapsed on everybody on Wall St.
After letting a cup of tea compose me, I walked out of the house to a nearby park which gives a panoramic view of south Manhattan from across the East River. It was still a perfectly blue sky and the Fort Greene neighbourhood, a remarkable example of mid 19th century domestic architecture, as beautiful as ever. The highest point in the park has The Martyr' s Monument, a symbolic tomb of 11,500 men who died on British prison ships during the Revolutionary War. From the vantage point of the monument I saw a huge plume of black and brown smoke rising from where the WTC stood. The plume was going straight up in the air.

I went back to the house to call everybody that I knew who was working in Manhattan. As I got in another co-worker of Heidi showed up, sweating profusely and covered with soot, asking if she made it back. We went inside and Chazz told me of the scene at the Brooklyn Bridge: people walking in unbroken numbers from Manhattan to Brooklyn. Paper was flying everywhere, burnt currency and, most of all, legal-sized paper. He swore some of the ash that was falling was human remains. He also asked where I was from. When I told him I was from Pakistan in New York for the summer he said, gently, that the xenophobia is going to begin and I better keep my face and accent from the streets. By the end of the day, with the media painting a picture in the face of unclaimed responsibility - somehow bin Ladin's operatives were more and more visible to surveillance and leaving trails everywhere as the day progressed, whereas they were invisible over the course of the planning of this incredible operation - I had shaved off my beard.

From the dark clouds of irresponsible statements over the course of the day, including those of news anchors Dan Rather, Peter Jennings and ex general Schwarzkopf, Mayor Rudolph Giuliani' s shone through. He said no vigilante justice would be tolerated. Heidi finally called but there was little relief as one other housemate, Kiran, a school teacher in Chinatown had still not been heard of. Two friends who worked on Wall St called. Devi, who worked in the next building from WTC, spoke of the sky going black, smoke filled elevator shafts and having been evacuated wearing gas masks. Her husband Sameer spoke about watching the planes crash into WTC from his office where he was conducting a morning meeting.

Finally, Kiran walked in and told the most remarkable story of all. From her classroom they could not see what was going on, their windows didn' t face the WTC. But they saw people running in the streets. When she announced to the class of 13-year-olds that perhaps it was an accident since the cause was unknown, one kid pointed out that it was 9:30 in the morning, it was two separate incidents, it was obviously on purpose. Another said maybe it was the Puerto Ricans from Vieques (that' s the island where the US Navy practices bombing and the site of recent protests). When Kiran left the class to go to the other side of the building to see for herself she saw one of the one of the towers come down. Fellow teachers were talking about attacks on the Pentagon and in Pittsburgh. A parent came screaming down the hall: the planes are coming, the planes are coming.

from www.chalomumbai.com


Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information in Yahoo! News. --0-1889309596-1000408402=:6625-- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: STATEMENT BY THE FORUM OF INDIAN LEFTISTS ON THE EVENTS OF SEPTEMBER 11, 2001 We, the members of the Forum of Indian Leftists, deeply grieve the human loss sustained in the attacks on New York City and Washington of September 11, 2001. Our deepest condolences go out to the friends and loved ones of those who were killed or injured. We see these actions not as an attack on America alone, but as an assault on humanity in general. As citizens of the world, we unequivocally condemn these acts of horrific and unconscionable violence. We call on all those who deplore such acts to act now to prevent the proliferation of hatred, retribution, and war. We condemn the precipitous drive to put the world on a war footing against an as yet unconfirmed assailant--a move that can only compound the already immense human tragedy we have witnessed. We reiterate our belief that violence is not the solution to violence, nor can it provide a solution to longstanding political problems anywhere in the globe. It is of critical importance to stand united at this moment and denounce all acts of violence against civilians, whether by terrorists, the state, or our fellow civilians. A cycle of violence can only be broken if we work to create alternatives to violent retaliation. In the words of M.K. Gandhi, "An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind." Therefore we stand together to demand in the loudest possible voice that the US state not retaliate with violence, and in the same voice to condemn any attempts to undermine civilian life and democratic freedoms in New York City, Washington, and elsewhere in the USA. As a group with a particular stake in working for peace and justice in India and its fellow South Asian nations, we are especially distressed by certain responses to this tragedy from within India. At a time when the world must stand together in unity and find ways toward peace and justice for all, we condemn polarizing and opportunistic statements from members of the Indian government and sections of the Indian press suggesting that certain nation-states such as India, Israel, and the USA must band together against others such as Pakistan and Afghanistan. We do not believe that advocating retribution against the scapegoat of "Islamic Fundamentalism" reflects the rational, democratic, non-violent, and tolerant values espoused by the majority of the Indian people. We call on the Indian government to respond to this calamity in a way that befits these values, and to stand firm against demands for uncritical support and abetment of acts of vengeance. As ordinary citizens, groups, and governments reflect and deliberate upon their responses to this terrible tragedy, we hope that all nations and peoples will use this opportunity to abandon the pursuit of intolerance, repression, and hatred in favor of reconciliation, solidarity, and reconstruction. In this moment of grief and mourning, let us proclaim our commitment to working towards peace and justice everywhere in the world. ======== 8. Subject: Statement of solidarity for the victims of wanton violence in the USA Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 Organization: South Asia Forum for Human Rights [ Kathmandu, Nepal ] Statement of solidarity for the victims of wanton violence in the USA We the members of South Asia Forum for Human Rights express our anguish and shock over the criminal attacks against innocent people in the United States of America. We express our most sincere sympathy to the victims and families and people of the United States of America. The manner in which these acts of violence were perpetrated by unknown actors or agencies leave no room for doubt about their utter disregard for human life. The use of civilian aircrafts full of innocent travellers as a weapon to strike at buildings housing thousands of people adds a new chapter to the book of horrors that the sickness of the human mind is capable of conceiving.The fact that these violent acts were carried out inside the United States, targeting the biggest commercial centre and the most secure military command centre, shows that today no nation, however powerful and security conscious, is safe from such attacks. Justice demands that the perpetrators of these heinous crime againt innocent persons be found and punished. The world community should assist the United States in this task. However, we would appeal to the USA and other governments that in their search for the perpetrators of these crimes, governments should be careful about the methods they apply. They should use law and established forms of legal investigation to bring the perpetrators to justice. We caution against the use of force, illegal means and methods and indiscriminate unilateral military retaliation, which unfortunately, has been done by powerful western states in the past. Such actions destroy the people's faith in rule of law and justice and cause more innocent deaths. It also perpetuates the cycle of recrimination, revenge and terrorism. We appeal to the leaders of the world governments, particularly the west to strive for a just social and political world order which alone can remove the sense of injustice and discrimination that motivates desperate people to perpetrate such acts of violence against innocent peoples. ______ #9. 13 September 2001 President George W Bush President of the United States of America. Dear Mr President, I am submitting to you condolences on behalf of concerned scholars, writers, human rights activists and others - Pakistanis, Indians, Bangladeshis, Swedes, British, Americans and others - expressing our deep sympathies on the very sad loss of innocent American and other lives on 11 September 2001 in various US cities as a result of a terrible terrorist slaughter. Dr. Ishtiaq Ahmed Campaign Organizer Associate Professor Department of Political Science Stockholm University SWEDEN. SOUTH ASIANS AND OTHER PEACE-LOVING PEOPLE OF THE WORLD CONDEMN TERRORIST ATTACKS AGAINST INNOCENT PEOPLE IN US CITIES The terrorist outrage against innocent men, women and children in various US cities on 11 September 2001 is feared to have claimed several thousand lives and inflicted injuries to even more people. Crimes against innocent people are crimes against all humanity and the perpetrators of these grotesque crimes should be brought to justice. At the same time, it is important that the Government of the United States does not fall prey to the same sort of perverted psychology that drives fanatics to perpetuate terrorist acts against innocent people. Military retaliation and revenge can result in grievous injury to innocent lives in areas suspected of harbouring suspects. Just as civilized governments are not deterred by dastardly acts of terror similarly victims of indiscriminate revenge attacks cannot accept that they should be punished for crimes they have not committed. It is therefore important that no action is taken without proper investigation and identification of the culprits. It is imperative that the terrorists involved in the present crime and others all over the world are denied safe haven everywhere, and the whole world community works together to exclude and isolate such barbarians and they are brought to justice. In the longer run one has to consider in a rational and dispassionate manner what drives people to such acts of utter desperation. Unless those causes are removed the spectre of violence will continue to loom large over the horizons the world over. Therefore it is important that justice is provided to all. It is now, more than ever before, necessary to examine seriously the non-violent alternative provided by Mahatma Gandhi and effectively employed by Dr Martin Luther King Jr. and other leaders of the world to challenge and defeat forces representing brute might. 1. Ishtiaq Ahmed Associate Professor of Political Science Stockholm University I support this statement: 2. Dr Ajaz Anwar Lahore, Pakistan. 3. Prof. Hassan Gardezi Ontario, Canada. 4. Harsh Kapoor France. 5. Prof. Asghar Ali Engineer Centre for the Study of Secularism in Society Mumbai, India. 6. Prof. Pervez Hoodbhoy Islamabad, Pakistan 7.Michele Micheletti Associate Professor of Political Science Stockholm University 8.Anil Viakara CEO, Invenio Technologies Cambridge, Massachussetts USA: 9. Rafi Khawaja Software Quality Engineering LifeScan, Inc., Milpitas, CA (408) 942 5754 10. Gulzar Ahmed USA. 11. Prof. Bilal Hashmi USA. 12. Group Captain (rtd), Cecil Chaudhry St. Anthony's High School Lahore, Pakistan. 13. Ameek A. Ponda Sullivan & Worcester LLP One Post Office Square Boston, Massachusetts 02109 14. Dr. Leo Rebello, Senator-Minister for India of the International Parliament for Safety and Peace Bombay 15. Dr. Partha S. Ghosh Director Indian Council of Social Science Research P.O.Box 10528 Aruna Asaf Ali Marg New Delhi-110067 16. Kripa Sundar, Ph.D. Software Engineer USA. 17. Sharmila Gopinathan Software Engineer Boston, USA 18. Pritam Singh Brookes Oxford University UK. 19. J. Sri Raman Convenor Journalists Against Nuclear Weapons & Movement Against Nuclear Weapons Chennai India 20.. Razia Malik, USA 21. Ameek Ponda USA. 22. Robin Khundkar, USA 23. Pritam K. Rohila, Keizer, OR, USA 24. Mustafa Hussain Knastebakken 151.1. DK-2750 Ballerup, Danmark 25. Kaushik Thakrar Business Development Manager Egroupe AB. 26. Colonel Brian Cloughley Writer UK. 27. Prof. Susan M. Akram Associate Professor Boston University School of Law (for identification purposes only). 28. Ilyas Khan Campaigner against Child Labour and Peace Activist, Sweden. 29. Sain Sucha, Writer and publisher, Sweden. 30. Dr Babar Mumtaz Reader, UK. 31. Prof. Bj�Beckman Department of Political Science Stockholm University. 32. Dr Henrik Berglund Researcher and Teacher Department of Political Science Stockholm University. 33. Dr Ghazala Anwar Lecturer, University of Canterbury Christchurch, New Zealand. 34. Geoffrey Cook, Vice Chair East Bay, Sanctuary Covenant Berkeley, California U.S.A. 35. Abul Fazal Mahmud Pakistan. 36. SM & Asha Shahed, Los Angeles, USA. 37. Syeda Khundkar USA. 38. Dr. Zafar Iqbal Health Science Specialist Washington, DC, USA 39. Nuzaira Azam Journalist, USA 40. SM & Asha Shahed, Los Angeles, USA. 41. Fr. Joe Mangalam SJ Movement for Secular Democracy Ahmedabad 42. Sukla Sen India. 43. Prof. A.H. Nayyar Department of Physics Islamabad, Pakistan. 44. T.N.GOPALAN JOURNALIST, CHENNAI, INDIA 4/A PRAJWAL SQUARE, ELANGO NAGAR ANNEXE VIRUGAMPAKKAM CHENNAI 600 092. 45. Ammu Abraham, Women's Centre, Bombay, India. 46. Khalid Lakhani, Chief Executive Officer Rabico, Karachi, Pakistan. 47. R.ARUL, Secretary, PASUMAI THAAYAGAM, PASUMAI THAAYAGAM (Green Mother Land), No. 9,(old No: 5) Lynwood Lane, Mahalingapuram, CHENNAI -600 034, India. 48. Dr. Yahya Hassan Bajwa (Member World Conference on Religion and Peace/Peace Education Standing Commission / TransCommunication - Baden - Switzerland. 49. Dr. Khalid Duran; Editor, Transislam Magazine; Provisional President, IbnKhaldun Society. 50. Prof. Paul Wallace Dept. of Political Science University of Missouri, USA. 51. Prakash N. Shah Editor, Nirikshak ( views fortnightly ) Convener, Movement for Secular Democracy. �Prakash� B/H Navrangpura Postoffice, Ahmedabad �380 009 India. 52. Dr Ajay K Mehra Director Centre for Public Affairs New Delhi, India. 53. Dr Inayatullah Islamabad, Pakistan. 54. Dr Pramod Kumar Director Institute for Development and Communication (IDC) Chandigarh, India. 55. Welay Songur Doctoral Student Department of Political Science Stockholm University, Sweden. 56. Riaz Cheema B.A. LL.B Solna, Sweden. 57. Prof. Vikram Vyas The Ajit Foundation, Jaipur, India. 58. Prof. Satish Saberwal Professor Emiritus, Jawaharlal Nehru University New Delhi, India. 59. Prof. Khushi Muhammad Khan Hamburg, Germany. 60. Magnus Lembke Doctoral Student Department of Political Science Stockholm University Sweden. ========= 10. > >>RAWA statement on the terrorist attacks in the US >> >>The people of Afghanistan have nothing to do with Osama and his accomplices >>On September 11, 2001 the world was stunned with the horrific >>terrorist attacks on the United States. RAWA stands with the rest of >>the world in expressing our sorrow and condemnation for this >>barbaric act of violence and terror. RAWA had already warned that >>the United States should not support the most treacherous, most >>criminal, most anti-democracy and anti-women Islamic fundamentalist >>parties because after both the Jehadi and the Taliban have committed >>every possible type of heinous crimes against our people, they would >>feel no shame in committing such crimes against the American people >>whom they consider "infidel". In order to gain and maintain their >>power, these barbaric criminals are ready to turn easily to any >>criminal force. >> >>But unfortunately we must say that it was the government of the >>United States who supported Pakistani dictator Gen. Zia-ul Haq in >>creating thousands of religious schools from which the germs of >>Taliban emerged. In the similar way, as is clear to all, Osama Bin >>Laden has been the blue-eyed boy of CIA. But what is more painful is >>that American politicians have not drawn a lesson from their >>pro-fundamentalist policies in our country and are still supporting >>this or that fundamentalist band or leader. In our opinion any kind >>of support to the fundamentalist Taliban and Jehadies is actually >>trampling democratic, women's rights and human rights values. >> >>If it is established that the suspects of the terrorist attacks are >>outside the US, our constant claim that fundamentalist terrorists >>would devour their creators, is proved once more. >> >>The US government should consider the root cause of this terrible >>event, which has not been the first and will not be the last one >>too. The US should stop supporting Afghan terrorists and their >>supporters once and for all. >> >>Now that the Taliban and Osama are the prime suspects by the US >>officials after the criminal attacks, will the US subject >>Afghanistan to a military attack similar to the one in 1998 and kill >>thousands of innocent Afghans for the crimes committed by the >>Taliban and Osama? Does the US think that through such attacks, with >>thousands of deprived, poor and innocent people of Afghanistan as >>its victims, will be able to wipe out the root-cause of terrorism, >>or will it spread terrorism even to a larger scale? >> >>From our point of view a vast and indiscriminate military attacks on >>a country that has been facing permanent disasters for more than two >>decades will not be a matter of pride. We don't think such an attack >>would be the expression of the will of the American people. >> >>The US government and people should know that there is a vast >>difference between the poor and devastated people of Afghanistan and >>the terrorist Jehadi and Taliban criminals. >> >>While we once again announce our solidarity and deep sorrow with the >>people of the US, we also believe that attacking Afghanistan and >>killing its most ruined and destitute people will not in any way >>decrease the grief of the American people. We sincerely hope that >>the great American people could DIFFERENTIATE between the people of >>Afghanistan and a handful of fundamentalist terrorists. Our hearts >>go out to the people of the US. >> >>Down with terrorism! >> >>Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA) >>September 14, 2001 >> >> ====== 11. 17th September, 2001. PRESS RELEASE The Coalition for Nuclear Disarmament and Peace (CNDP) condemns the indiscriminate mass murder perpetrated in the USA on 11 September, 2001 using hijacked passenger aircraft as weapons. CNDP joins the world in expressing its heartfelt condolences to the bereaved families and the American people. There can be no justification for mass murder committed either by stateless fanatical groups or by states. This is the reason that the peace movement, all over the world, opposes weapons of mass destruction such as nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. September 11 has shown that mass murder today does not need sophisticated technology. Such barbaric activity poisons all peace processes, and sets back all efforts at disarmament. This crime also shows that neither nuclear weapons nor defence shields (NMD/TMD) provide any additional 'security'. There will be forces in the United States government and elsewhere calling for retaliatory strikes and reprisals. Any response that does not distinguish between perpetrators and innocent people will be no different from the barbaric acts of 11th September that have drawn justified worldwide condemnation. It is also necessary to distinguish between the acts of terrorism and the causes driving it. Addressing only terrorist acts will not stop the current spiral of violence. Negotiated and just settlements of various conflicts around the world are the only long term guarantees for peace and against terrorism. It appears that the United States, is now preparing for unilateral action in Afghanistan. CNDP strongly believes that any such action should only be under the aegis of the UN. CNDP believes that India should not be a party to such unilateral US action and, deplores the Vajpayee government's willingness to compromise India's sovereignty. (sd/) (Prabir Purkayastha) (Praful Bidwai) ======== 12. The Dalai Lama's message to President George Bush 12 September, 2001 Your Excellency, I am deeply shocked by the terrorist attacks that took place involving four apparently hijacked aircrafts and the immense devastation these caused. It is a terrible tragedy that so many innocent lives have been lost and it seems unbelievable that anyone would choose to target the world trade Center in New York City and the Pentagon in Washington D.C. We are deeply saddened. On behalf of the Tibetan people I would like to convey our deepest condolence and solidarity with the American people during this painful time. Our prayers go out to the many who have lost their lives, those who have been injured and the many more who have been traumatized by this senseless act of violence. I am attending a special prayer for the United States and it's people at our main temple today. I am confident that the United States as a great and powerful nation will be able to overcome this present tragedy. The American people have shown their resilience, courage and determination when faced with such difficult and sad situation. It may seem presumptuous on my part, but I personally believe we need to think seriously whether a violent action is the right thing to do and in the greater interest of the nation and people in the long run. I believe violence will only increase the cycle of violence. But how do we deal with hatred and anger, which are often the root causes of such senseless violence? This is a very difficult question, especially when it concerns a nation and we have certain fixed conceptions of how to deal with such attacks. I am sure that you will make the right decision. With my prayers and good wishes The Dalai Lama ========== 13. >MEDIA STATEMENT >Contact: William R. Pace +1 917-214-5535 > or Jayne Stoyles +1 212-687-2176 > >U.S TRAGEDY HIGHLIGHTS NEED FOR >AN INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT > >New York, July 2001 >On behalf of the more than 1000 members of the NGO Coalition for the >International Criminal Court, we wish to express our horror and shock over >the criminal attacks perpetrated yesterday against innocent people in the >USA. > >We express our most sincere sympathy to the victims, their families and the >people of the United States of America. We are also thinking of the many >people affected every day by terrorism, genocide, crimes against humanity >and other atrocities in all parts of the world. > >As has been stated by USA authorities, this catastrophe represents a >massive failure of USA intelligence and national defense. The inability of >the most powerful nation, with the greatest resources, to prevent such a >crime reinforces the need for enhanced cooperation throughout the >international community in outlawing, investigating and prosecuting these >most serious crimes - which is what the International Criminal Court will >do. > >This horrific crime clearly demonstrates the need for a fundamentally >strengthened system of international criminal justice. The International >Criminal Court is expected to be established in 2002-2003 after entry into >force of the Rome Statute of the ICC. It will be permanent and >independent and will prosecute individuals who commit genocide, war crimes, >and crimes against humanity. > >Though the international community has not been able to agree on the >definition of the crime of international terrorism, it is our unanimous >opinion that yesterday's acts of terrorism were crimes against humanity - >the murder of hundreds if not thousands of innocent civilians. > >We appeal to the government of the US and its allies to focus on bringing >the perpetrators to justice and warn against indiscriminate military >retaliation. Such retaliation has been the response to past terrorist >attacks - it is not only illegal but has been ineffective and will >inevitably result in more deaths and a cycle of recrimination, revenge and >terrorism. This cannot be the response of a civilized nation hoping to put >an end to this kind of violence. > >The world community must join together in condemning this terrorist crime >against humanity and join in using national and international laws in >bringing those responsible to justice. > >Note: The Rome Statute was adopted by a vote of 120-7 on July 17, 1998. >It has been signed by 139 nations and ratified by 37. The Rome Statute >will enter into force after 60 nations have ratified the treaty. > > > >+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ >Jayne Stoyles >Program Director >NGO Coalition for an International Criminal Court > >777 U.N. Plaza 12th Floor >New York, NY 10017 >U.S.A. >Phone 212 687 2176 Fax 212 599 1332 >Email cicc1 at iccnow.org >Web http://www.iccnow.org > >+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ > ====== 14. > >Human Rights Watch Response to Attacks on the U.S. >Civilian Life Must Be Respected > >(New York, September 12, 2001) -- We profoundly condemn yesterday's cruel >attacks in the United States and express our condolences to the victims and > This was an assault not merely on one nation or one >people, but on principles of respect for civilian life cherished by all > We urge all governments to unite to investigate this crime, to >prevent its recurrence, and to bring to justice those who are responsible. > >Last night, President Bush said that the United States "will make no >distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who > Yet distinctions must be made: between the guilty and the >innocent; between the perpetrators and the civilians who may surround them; >between those who commit atrocities and those who may simply share their >religious beliefs, ethnicity or national origin. People committed to justice >and law and human rights must never descend to the level of the perpetrators > That is the most important distinction of all. > >There are people and governments in the world who believe that in the > But that is also the > Whatever the response to this outrage, it must not > Rather, it must uphold the principles that came under > That is >the way to deny the perpetrators of this crime their ultimate victory. > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime. Our nation has been put on notice, we're not immune from attack. We will take defensive measures against terrorism to protect Americans. Today, dozens of federal departments and agencies, as well as state and local governments, have responsibilities affecting homeland security. These efforts must be coordinated at the highest level. So tonight, I announce the creation of a Cabinet-level position reporting directly to me, the Office of Homeland Security. And tonight, I also announce a distinguished American to lead this effort, to strengthen American security: a military veteran, an effective governor, a true patriot, a trusted friend, Pennsylvania's Tom Ridge. He will lead, oversee and coordinate a comprehensive national strategy to safeguard our country against terrorism and respond to any attacks that may come. These measures are essential. The only way to defeat terrorism as a threat to our way of life is to stop it, eliminate it and destroy it where it grows. Many will be involved in this effort, from FBI agents, to intelligence operatives, to the reservists we have called to active duty. All deserve our thanks, and all have our prayers. And tonight a few miles from the damaged Pentagon, I have a message for our military: Be ready. I have called the armed forces to alert, and there is a reason. The hour is coming when America will act, and you will make us proud. This is not, however, just America's fight. And what is at stake is not just America's freedom. This is the world's fight. This is civilization's fight. This is the fight of all who believe in progress and pluralism, tolerance and freedom. We ask every nation to join us. We will ask and we will need the help of police forces, intelligence services and banking systems around the world. The United States is grateful that many nations and many international organizations have already responded with sympathy and with support - nations from Latin America, to Asia, to Africa, to Europe, to the Islamic world. Perhaps the NATO charter reflects best the attitude of the world: An attack on one is an attack on all. The civilized world is rallying to America's side. They understand that if this terror goes unpunished, their own cities, their own citizens may be next. Terror unanswered cannot only bring down buildings, it can threaten the stability of legitimate governments. And you know what? We're not going to allow it. Americans are asking, ''What is expected of us?'' I ask you to live your lives and hug your children. I know many citizens have fears tonight, and I ask you to be calm and resolute, even in the face of a continuing threat. I ask you to uphold the values of America and remember why so many have come here. We're in a fight for our principles, and our first responsibility is to live by them. No one should be singled out for unfair treatment or unkind words because of their ethnic background or religious faith. I ask you to continue to support the victims of this tragedy with your contributions. Those who want to give can go to a central source of information, libertyunites.org, to find the names of groups providing direct help in New York, Pennsylvania and Virginia. The thousands of FBI agents who are now at work in this investigation may need your cooperation, and I ask you to give it. I ask for your patience with the delays and inconveniences that may accompany tighter security and for your patience in what will be a long struggle. I ask your continued participation and confidence in the American economy. Terrorists attacked a symbol of American prosperity; they did not touch its source. America is successful because of the hard work and creativity and enterprise of our people. These were the true strengths of our economy before Sept. 11, and they are our strengths today. And finally, please continue praying for the victims of terror and their families, for those in uniform and for our great country. Prayer has comforted us in sorrow and will help strengthen us for the journey ahead. Tonight I thank my fellow Americans for what you have already done and for what you will do. And ladies and gentlemen of the Congress, I thank you, their representatives, for what you have already done and for what we will do together. Tonight we face new and sudden national challenges. We will come together to improve air safety, to dramatically expand the number of air marshals on domestic flights and take new measures to prevent hijacking. We will come together to promote stability and keep our airlines flying with direct assistance during this emergency. We will come together to give law enforcement the additional tools it needs to track down terror here at home. We will come together to strengthen our intelligence capabilities to know the plans of terrorists before they act and to find them before they strike. We will come together to take active steps that strengthen America's economy and put our people back to work. Tonight, we welcome two leaders who embody the extraordinary spirit of all New Yorkers, Gov. George Pataki and Mayor Rudolf Giuliani. As a symbol of America's resolve, my administration will work with Congress and these two leaders to show the world that we will rebuild New York City. After all that has just passed, all the lives taken and all the possibilities and hopes that died with them, it is natural to wonder if America's future is one of fear. Some speak of an age of terror. I know there are struggles ahead and dangers to face. But this country will define our times, not be defined by them. As long as the United States of America is determined and strong, this will not be an age of terror. This will be an age of liberty here and across the world. Great harm has been done to us. We have suffered great loss. And in our grief and anger, we have found our mission and our moment. Freedom and fear are at war. The advance of human freedom, the great achievement of our time and the great hope of every time, now depends on us. Our nation, this generation, will lift the dark threat of violence from our people and our future. We will rally the world to this cause by our efforts, by our courage. We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail. It is my hope that in the months and years ahead life will return almost to normal. We'll go back to our lives and routines, and that is good. Even grief recedes with time and grace. But our resolve must not pass. Each of us will remember what happened that day and to whom it happened. We will remember the moment the news came, where we were and what we were doing. Some will remember an image of a fire or story or rescue. Some will carry memories of a face and a voice gone forever. And I will carry this. It is the police shield of a man named George Howard, who died at the World Trade Center trying to save others. It was given to me by his mom, Arlene, as a proud memorial to her son. It is my reminder of lives that ended and a task that does not end. I will not forget the wound to our country and those who inflicted it. I will not yield, I will not rest, I will not relent in waging this struggle for freedom and security for the American people. The course of this conflict is not known, yet its outcome is certain. Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty, have always been at war, and we know that God is not neutral between them. Fellow citizens, we'll meet violence with patient justice, assured of the rightness of our cause and confident of the victories to come. In all that lies before us, may God grant us wisdom, and may he watch over the United States of America. Thank you. __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: 1952). 49 years ago. The right to make war, like the right to strike, but in a far higher degree, is very dangerous in a world governed by scientific technique. Neither can be simply abolished, since that would open the road to tyranny. But in each case it must be recognised that groups cannot, in the name of freedom, justly claim the right to inflict great injuries upon others. As regards war, the principle of unrestricted national sovereignty, cherished by liberals in the nineteenth century and by the Kremlin in the present day, must be abandoned. Means must be found of subjecting the relations of nations to the rule of law, so that a single nation will no longer be, as at present, the judge in its own cause. If this is not done, the world will quickly return to barbarism. In that case, scientific technique will disappear along with science, and men will be able to go on being quarrelsome because their quarrels will no longer do much harm. It is, however, just possible that mankind may prefer to survive and prosper rather than to perish in misery, and, if so, national liberty will have to be effectively restrained. [...] The atom bomb, and still more the hydrogen bomb, have caused new fears, involving new doubts as to the effects of science on human life. Some eminent authorities, including Einstein, have pointed out that there is a danger of the extinction of all life on this planet. I do not myself think that this will happen in the next war, but I think it may well happen in the next but one, if that is allowed to occur. If this expectation is correct, we have to choose within the next fifty years or so between two alternatives. Either we must allow the human race to exterminate itself, or we must forgo certain liberties which are very dear to us, more especially the liberty to kill foreigners whenever we feel so disposed. I think it probable that mankind will choose its own extermination as the preferable alternative. The choice will be made, of course, by persuading ourselves that it is not being made, since (so militarists on both sides will say) the victory of the right is certain without risk of universal disaster. We are perhaps living in the last age of man, and, if so, it is to science that he will owe his extinction. If, however, the human race decides to let itself go on living, it will have to make very drastic changes in its ways of thinking, feeling and behaving. We must learn not to say: 'Never! better death than dishonour!' We must learn to submit to law, even when imposed by aliens whom we hate and despise, and whom we believe to be blind to all considerations of righteousness. Consider some concrete examples. Jews and Arabs will have to agree to submit to arbitration; if the award goes against the Jews, the President of the United States will have to ensure the victory of the party to which he is opposed, since, if he supports the international authority, he will lose the Jewish vote in new York State. On the other hand, if the award goes in favour of the Jews, the Mohammedan world will be indignant, and will be supported by all other malcontents. Or, to take another instance, Eire, will demand the right to oppress the Protestants of Ulster, and on this issue the United States will support Eire while Britain will support Ulster. Could an international authority survive such a dissension? Again: India and Pakistan cannot agree about Kashmir, therefore one of them must support Russia and the other the United States. It will be obvious to anyone who is an interested party in one of these disputes that the issue is far more important than the continuance of life on our planet. The hope that the human race will allow itself to survive is therefore somewhat slender. But if human life *is* to continue in spite of science, mankind will have to learn a discipline of the passions which, in the past, has not been necessary. Men will have to submit to the law, even when they think the law unjust and iniquitous. Nations which are persuaded that they are only demanding the barest justice will have to acquiesce when this demand is denied the by the neutral authority. I do not say that this is easy; I do not prophesy that it will happen; I say only that if it does not happen the human race will perish , and will perish as a result of science. A clear choice must be made within fifty years, the choice between Reason and Death. And by 'Reason' I mean willingness to submit to law as declared by an international authority. I fear that mankind may choose Death. I hope I am mistaken. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: the face of overwhelming grief. But there is also a growing moral revulsion and perhaps an understandable expression of the need for vengeance. Even as some people unfairly, even preposterously, become the victims of this newest hatred, the American President has promised revenge. Can anything be wrong with hating ruthless strategists who achieve their political goals by the indiscriminate slaughter of innocent civilians? How can it be wrong for a woman to hate the rapist who has permanently scarred her, or for victims to hate leaders or organisers of mobs that lynched them? At issue here is not the feeling of an intense desire to hurt others in order to gain advantage for oneself. Of course, malicious hatred is obnoxious. But those who hate the perpetrators of the carnage on September 11are not driven by malice or spite. Hating the wrong-doer is not morally inappropriate. If so, it must be morally permissible to desire to hurt the wrong-doer. It is extremely abnormal if self-respecting persons do not experience righteous anger, even hatred towards those who have wronged them.There must be some room in our moral topography for what the philosopher, Jeffrie Murphy calls retributive hatred. Yet it may not be wise or morally appropriate for victims to act on these feelings. It is imprudent because retaliatory action sparks off escalating cycles of revenge and reciprocal violence. Retaliation by the US and counter retaliation will almost certainly plunge the entire world into greater suffering, pain, vulnerability and insecurity. Revenge can unleash even greater tragedies. How do we make sure that today's victims do not become tomorrow's perpetrators of much worse? What if the original motive of revenge unravels an unappeasable thirst for violence? If lessons of history teach us anything at all, it is that the barbaric acts of one group solicit equally barbaric acts from others. No matter on whom the first blow was struck, if our aim is to terminate barbarism, then, it must be stalled now, suddenly, and abruptly. In the shifting sands of the complex ethic at work here, the entire moral advantage rests with victims of the immediate crime. If the vision that generally motivates them is to come good eventually, it is best, all things considered, to forgo the temptation to act on retributive hatred and feelings of vengeance. Retribution, not revenge To restrain vengeful motives is wise for another reason. Undoubtedly, the massacre on the East coast is motivated by the desire to question the economic, political and cultural supremacy of the USA in a radically unequal world. If and when the mightiest nation in the world retaliates, it will not be to grant equal status to offenders. It is rather more likely that, by a massive display of strength, they will be shoved further back in their less than equal place. The not so hidden text of American retaliation will be an abject lesson to all to never again dare American supremacy. Will it surprise anyone if a disproportionate and symbolic show of force to maim and crush the enemy flows from the very same motive of vengeance? It is true, of course, that some acts of revenge are the wellspring of equality and refute claims of supremacy by wrong-doers. However, the spectacular show of violence on September 11 and in the days to come is likely to reveal a different,warped logic of alternating claims of superiority. We need retribution for sure, but not revenge. In the days to come, we must not be forced to witness ghost towns in other parts of the world with more terror-stricken faces, choked voices, desperately crying for help. American might must be restrained, perpetrators must be brought to book in an international court of justice and tried for crimes against humanity, our common humanity. This would just be a beginning. To set a larger process of reconciliation in motion, the messages of marginalised collectives hidden under the gruesome rubble of Tuesday's destruction must be decoded and discussed by moderates from all over the world. Only by properly understanding the social, cultural and spiritual basis of self-respect in our troubled times can we ever begin to address the problems violently thrown at us on September 11. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: bones the sole remains, eerily beautiful in asymmetry, as if a new work of abstract art had been erected in a public space. Elsewhere, you see the transformation of institutions: The New School and New York University are missing persons' centers. A� movie house is now a rest shelter, a Burger King a first-aid center, a Brooks Brothers� clothing store a body parts morgue, a record shop a haven for stranded animals.� Libraries are counseling centers. Ice rinks are morgues. A bank is now a supply depot: in the first four days, it distributed 11,000 respirators and 25,000 pairs of protective gloves and suits. Nearby, a mobile medical unit housed in a Macdonald's has administered 70,000 tetanus shots. The brain tries to process the numbers: "only" 50,000 tons of debris had been cleared by yesterday, out of 1.2 million tons. The medical examiner's office has readied up to 20,000 DNA tests for unidentifiable cadaver parts. At all times, night and day, a minimum of 1000 people live and work on the site. Such numbers daze the mind. It's the details--fragile, individual--that melt numbness into grief. An anklet with "Joyleen" engraved on it--found on an ankle. Just that: an ankle. A pair of hands--one brown, one white\clasped together. Just that. No wrists. A burly welder who drove from Ohio to help, saying softly, "We're working in a cemetery. I'm standing in--not on, in--a graveyard."� Each lamppost, storefront, scaffolding, mailbox, is plastered with homemade photocopied posters, a racial/ethnic rainbow of faces and names: death the great leveler, not only of the financial CEOs--their images usually formal, white, male, older, with suit-and-tie--but the mailroom workers, receptionists, waiters. You pass enough of the MISSING posters and the faces, names, descriptions become familiar. The Albanian window-cleaner guy with the bushy eyebrows. The teenage Mexican dishwasher who had an American flag tattoo. The janitor's assistant who'd emigrated from Ethiopia. The Italian-American grandfather who was a doughnut-cart tender. The 23-year-old Chinese American junior pastry chef at the Windows on the World restaurant who'd gone in early that day so she could prep a business breakfast for 500. The� firefighter who'd posed jauntily wearing his green shamrock necktie. The dapper African-American midlevel manager with a small gold ring in his ear who handled "minority affairs" for one of the companies. The middle-aged secretary laughing up at the camera from her wheelchair. The maintenance worker with a Polish name, holding his newborn baby. Most of the faces are smiling; most of the shots are family photos;� many are recent wedding pictures. . . . I have little national patriotism, but I do have a passion for New York, partly for our gritty, secular energy of endurance, and because the world does come here: 80 countries had offices in the Twin Towers; 62 countries lost citizens in the catastrophe; an estimated 300 of our British cousins died, either in the planes or the buildings. My personal comfort is found not in ceremonies or prayer services but in watching the plain, truly heroic (a word usually misused) work of ordinary New Yorkers we take for granted every day, who have risen to this moment unpretentiously, too busy even to notice they're expressing the splendor of the human spirit: firefighters, medical aides, nurses, ER doctors, police officers, sanitation workers, construction-workers, ambulance drivers, structural engineers, crane operators, rescue worker "tunnel rats" . . . Meanwhile, across the US, the rhetoric of retaliation is in full-throated roar. Flag sales are up. Gun sales are up. Some radio stations have banned playing John Lennon's song, "Imagine." Despite appeals from all officials (even Bush), mosques are being attacked, firebombed; Arab Americans are hiding their children indoors; two murders in Arizona have already been categorized as hate crimes--one victim a Lebanese-American man and one a Sikh man who died merely for wearing a turban. (Need I say that there were not nationwide attacks against white Christian males after Timothy McVeigh was apprehended for the Oklahoma City bombing?) Last Thursday, right-wing televangelists Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson (our home-grown American Taliban leaders) appeared on Robertson's TV show "The 700 Club," where Falwell blamed "the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists and the gays and lesbians ... the American Civil Liberties Union, People for the American Way" and groups "who have tried to secularize America" for what occurred in New York. Robertson� replied, "I totally concur." After even the Bush White House called the remarks "inappropriate," Falwell apologized (though he did not take back his sentiments); Robertson hasn't even apologized. (The program is carried by the Fox Family� Channel, recently purchased by the Walt Disney Company--in case you'd like to register a protest.) The sirens have lessened. But the drums have started. Funeral drums. War drums. A State of Emergency, with a call-up of 50,000 reservists to active duty. The Justice Department is seeking increased authority for wider surveillance, broader detention powers, wiretapping of persons (not, as previously, just phone numbers), and stringent press restrictions on military reporting. And the petitions have begun. For justice but not vengeance. For a reasoned response but against escalating retaliatory violence. For vigilance about civil liberties. For the rights of innocent Muslim Americans.� For �bombing� Afghanistan with food and medical parcels, NOT firepower. There will be the expectable peace marches, vigils, rallies. . . . One member of the House of Representatives--Barbara Lee, Democrat of California, an African American woman--lodged the sole vote in both houses of� Congress against giving Bush broadened powers for a war response, saying she didn't believe� a massive military campaign would stop terrorism. (She could use letters of support: email her, if you wish, at >>barbara.lee at mail.house.gov<<.) Those of us who have access to the media have been trying to get a different voice out. But ours are complex messages with long-term solutions--and this is a moment when people yearn for simplicity and short-term, facile answers. Still, I urge all of you to write letters to the editors of newspapers, call in to talk radio shows, and, for those of you who have media access--as activists,�community leaders, elected or appointed officials, academic experts, whatever--to do as many interviews and TV programs as you can. Use the tool of the Internet. Talk about the root causes of terrorism, about the need to diminish this daily climate of patriarchal violence surrounding us in its state-sanctioned normalcy; the need to recognize people's despair over ever being heard short of committing such dramatic, murderous acts; the need to address a desperation that becomes chronic after generations of suffering; the need to arouse that most subversive of emotions--empathy--for "the other";� the need to eliminate hideous economic and political injustices, to reject all tribal/ethnic hatreds and fears, to repudiate religious fundamentalisms of every kind. Especially talk about the need to understand that we must expose the mystique of violence, separate it from how we conceive of excitement, eroticism, and� "manhood";� the need to comprehend that violence differs in degree but is related in kind, that it� thrivesalong a spectrum, as do its effects--from the battered child and raped woman who live in fear to an entire populace living in fear. Meanwhile, we cry and cry and cry. I don't even know who my tears are for anymore, because I keep seeing ghosts, I keep hearing echoes. The world's sympathy moves me deeply. Yet I hear echoes dying into silence: the world averting its attention from Rwanda�s screams . . . Ground Zero is a huge mass grave. And I think: Bosnia. Uganda. More than 6300 people are missing and presumed dead (not even counting the Washington and Pennsylvania deaths). The TV anchors choke up: civilians, they say, my god, civilians. And I see ghosts. Hiroshima. Nagasaki. Dresden. Vietnam. I watch the mask-covered mouths and noses on the street turn into the faces of Tokyo citizens who wear such masks every day against toxic pollution. I watch the scared eyes become the fearful eyes of women forced to wear the hajib or chodor or burka against their will . . . I stare at the missing posters' photos and think of the Mothers of the Disappeared, circling the plazas in Argentina. And I see the ghosts of other faces. In photographs on the walls of Holocaust museums. In newspaper clippings from Haiti. In chronicles from Cambodia . . . I worry for people who've lost their homes near the site, though I see how superbly social-service agencies are trying to meet their immediate and longer-term needs. But I see ghosts: the perpetually homeless who sleep on city streets, whose needs are never addressed. . . . I watch normally unflappable New Yorkers flinch at loud noises, parents panic when their kids are late from school. And I see my Israeli feminist friends like Yvonne, who�ve lived with this dread for decades and still (even yesterday) stubbornly issue petitions insisting on peace. . . . I watch sophisticates sob openly in the street, people who've lost workplaces, who don't know where their next paycheck will come from, who fear a contaminated water or food supply, who are afraid for their sons in the army, who are unnerved by security checkpoints, who are in mourning, who are wounded, who feel humiliated, outraged. And I see my friends like Zuhira� in the refugee camps of Gaza or West Bank, Palestinian women who have lived in precisely that same emotional condition--for four generations. Last weekend, many Manhattanites left town to visit concerned families, try to normalize, get away for a break. As they streamed out of the city, I saw ghosts of other travelers: hundreds of thousands of Afghan refugees streaming toward their country's borders in what is to them habitual terror, trying to escape a drought-sucked country so war-devastated there's nothing left to bomb, a country with 50,000 disabled orphans and two million widows whose sole livelihood is begging; where the life expectancy of men is 42 and women 40; where women hunch in secret whispering lessons to girl children forbidden to go to school, women who risk death by beheading--for teaching a child to read. The ghosts stretch out their hands. Now you know, they weep, gesturing at the carefree, insulated, indifferent, golden innocence that was my country's safety, arrogance, and pride. Why should it take such horror to make you see? the echoes sigh, Oh please do you finally see? This is calamity. And opportunity. The United States--what so many of you call America--could choose now to begin to understand the world. And join it. Or not. For now my window still displays no flag, my lapel sports no red-white-and-blue ribbon. Instead, I weep for a city and a world. Instead, I cling to a different loyalty, affirming my un-flag, my un-anthem, my un-prayer--the defiant un-pledge of a madwoman who also had mere words as her only tools in a time of ignorance and carnage, Virginia Woolf: "As a woman I have no country. As a woman I want no country. As a woman my country is the whole world." If this is treason, may I be worthy of it. In mourning--and in absurd, tenacious hope, Robin Morgan September 18, 2001 New York City Robin Morgan is an award-winning writer, feminist leader, political theorist, journalist, and activist. She has published 17 books, including six of poetry, two of fiction, and the now-classic anthologies SISTERHOOD IS POWERFUL (Random House/Vintage Books, 1970), and SISTERHOOD IS GLOBAL (Doubleday/Anchor, l984; Feminist Press edition 1996), and her own acclaimed THE DEMON LOVER; ON THE SEXUALITY OF TERRORISM (Norton, 1989). Her newest book of poetry is A HOT JANUARY: POEMS 1996-1999 (Norton, 1999), and her memoir, SATURDAY'S CHILD was recently published (Norton, December 2000). From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: ENTERPRISE CREW SPLIT OVER VIOLATING PRIME DIRECTIVE, INTERVENING TO SAVE EARTH FROM ITSELF Star Fleet Strictly Forbids Meddling, But Christ, Just Look at the Place In Stationary Orbit (SatireWire.com) � Disturbed by ruthless terrorist attacks and talk of war, the crew of the starship Enterprise, which has been stealthily orbiting Earth since August, is reportedly torn over whether to violate Star Fleet's Prime Directive and intervene in Earth affairs, or gather for drinks in the forward observation lounge and watch the planet go to shit. According to Enterprise Capt. Jean-Luc Picard, the crew is evenly split between Earth-born personnel who believe they have an obligation to quell the recent violence and bring lasting peace to their home world, and non-Earth-born personnel, who point out that Picard didn't lift a finger when Boral II self-destructed, so what's so special about this place? "Hey, we let most of the Boralans die. We wouldn't help the Klingon's in their civil war. What's the big deal here?" said Guinan, the ship's lounge hostess and a native of El-Auria. "Besides, every time we do intervene, we leave the inhabitants more screwed up than they were before." "How could we possibly make the people on this planet more screwed up?" countered Earth-born First Officer Will Riker. "They think golf is a sport!" According to the Prime Directive, "the right of each sentient species to live in accordance with its normal cultural evolution is considered sacred, and no Star Fleet personnel may interfere with the healthy development of alien life and culture." While officers are honor-bound to uphold it, Earth-born Ensign Wesley Crusher argued the Enterprise has broken the rules before. "Gee, this could be just like Episode 141, where Data tries to save the life of that little girl whose planet is gonna blow up, or Episode 109, where Capt. Picard interfered to save my life because I broke one of the Edo's laws," said Crusher. "I mean, look, it's really cool to sit up here in our sexless spandex uniforms, downing Klavorian Synth-Ale and pretending we're not all running the Caligula program on the Holodeck, but the people of Earth are gearing up to, like, kill each other. "I know we're not supposed to mess with the 'healthy development' of other cultures,' but this is not fuckin' healthy," he added. "I disagree," answered Lt. Cmdr. Worf, a Klingon. "I am not of Earth, but some differences can only be solved through violence. Truly, I fail to understand why the humans from this planet's Western Hemisphere have not already attacked the humans from the Eastern Hemisphere. Or perhaps I have that backwards. This planet keeps spinning in an annoying way." "Exactly, Mr. Worf," said Earth-born Capt. Picard. "It is ever-changing. East becomes West, West becomes East, right becomes wrong. We should be patient. After all, on whose behalf do we intercede?" "God, you are so French," mumbled Riker. "I say we... we attack them all!" said Worf. "This way there is no confusion." "Dude, are you sure you're not from Earth?" asked Crusher. At press time, Capt. Picard had yet to make a decision, but he is expected to rely heavily on ship's counselor Deanna Troi, a telepathic Betazoid who said the planet below was a roiling sea of emotions. "I sense great hostility, fear and sadness among the people," she announced. "But I also sense something else, something even stronger. It is... It is..." "Love?" interrupted the android, Cmdr. Data. "No, it is relief. There is widespread relief that there now may be no more Die Hard movies." Copyright � 2001, SatireWire. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyway, the :// part is an 'emoticon' representing a man with a strip of sticky tape across his mouth. -R. Douglas, alt.sysadmin.recovery --------------------------------------------------------------------- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: This is not Islam any more than the Ku Klux Klan is Christianity. No concessions can be made to either mindset which have more in common with one another than they do with the religions they claim to represent. To argue, as many Arabs and Muslims are doing today (and not a few liberal Western voices), that 'Americans should ask themselves why they are so hated in the world' is to make such a concession; it is to provide a justification, however unwittingly, for this kind of warped mindset. The thinking is the same as the 'linkage' dreamed up by Saddam Hussein when he tried to get the Arab world to believe that he had occupied Kuwait in 1990 in order to liberate Palestine. The difference being that if the argument was intellectually vacuous then, it is a thousand times more so now. Worse than being wrong, however, it is morally bankrupt, to say nothing of being counterproductive. For every attempt to 'rationalise' or 'explain' the new anti-Americanism rampant in so much of the Muslim and Arab worlds bolsters the project of the perpetrators of the heinous act of 11 September, which is to blur the lines that separate their sect of a few hundred people from hundreds of millions of peace-loving Muslims and Arabs. But it is now up to Arabs and Muslims to draw the line that separates them from the Osama bin Ladens of this world just as it was up to Americans to excoriate, isolate, outlaw, imprison and eventually root out the members of the Klan from their midst. Mercifully, the very same Western leaders who are preparing for the coming 'War Against Terrorism' are trying hard, and genuinely, to say their efforts are not directed at Muslims and Arab or Muslim culture. Constantly, they are being seen with Muslim clerics and visiting mosques. That is all for the good. But it is not enough to turn the tide of public opinion which will increasingly need and want to know who is 'the other' in this coming war. Terrorism is a tactic, after all, not a side. Usage of the word 'war', however understandable, was a strategic mistake by the American President. For like the wars on drugs or poverty it inculcates expectations at the risk of showing few results. The problem is deeper than bin Laden and his associates, and will not end with their demise. As I wrote in Cruelty and Silence, citing the 1930s Iraqi alter ego of Tom Lehrer, Aziz Ali, Da' illi beena, minna wa feena: 'The disease that is in us, is from us and within us.' Against this kind of enemy the West can do nothing. We have to do it ourselves. Muslims and Arabs have to be on the front lines of a new kind of war, one that is worth waging for their own salvation and in their own souls. And that, as good out-of-fashion Muslim scholars will tell you, is the true meaning of jihad, a meaning that has been hijacked by terrorists and suicide bombers and all those who applaud or find excuses for them. To exorcise what they have done in our name is the civilisational challenge of the twenty-first century for every Arab and Muslim in the world today. � Kanan Makiya. The author, who was born in Iraq, now teaches in the US. His books include Cruelty and Silence: War, Tyranny, Uprising and the Arab World and the forthcoming The Rock. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Get your free Yahoo! address at Yahoo! Mail: UK or IE. --0-986985521-1002681838=:10397 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 Fighting Islam's Ku Klux Klan

The Muslim world cannot forever attribute all its ills to the Great Satan, America, writes the Iraqi dissident, Kanan Makiya

Kanan Makiya
Sunday October 7, 2001
The Observer

The Arab and Muslim worlds suddenly find themselves facing a civilisational challenge such as they have not had to face since the fall of the Ottoman Empire. For, in the years to come, the greatest price of the madness that was unleashed upon New York and Washington on 11 September will be borne by them and by all individuals of Arab or Muslim origin, wherever they might live in the world.

I am not talking about the next war in Afghanistan or greatly redoubled efforts to hunt down Muslim and Arab terrorists from Boston and Hamburg to Cairo and Karachi. The price I am talking about is not paid in blood or by being the victim of the kinds of humiliating slurs and racist attacks that are everywhere on the rise in the West. It is the much greater price brought about by continuing to wallow in the sense of one's own victimhood to the point of losing the essentially universal idea of human dignity and worth that is the only true measure of civility.

Arab and Muslim resentment at the West is grounded in many grievances, some legitimate, others less so. Without question, the West has blundered in its dealings with the Arab world. The United States has in recent years behaved unjustly towards the Palestinians. The Allied victory in the Gulf War of 1990-1991 was a lost opportunity to rectify this record, to show that the West, and the United States in particular, was capable of reaching out the hand of friendship and support to the peoples of the Arab world, to their democrats and civil libertarians, not merely to a host of tyrannical and unrepresentative regimes.

Like Germans after the First World War, Arabs felt they deserved a different lot after the Gulf War. They thought of themselves as having tried to change the ways they did politics in the past, and got nowhere. Palestinian living standards have actually declined since the Oslo accord in 1993, and Iraqi society (much less its polity and economy) is in a state of steady disintegration. So Arabs grew more resentful and angry at the West than at any other time in modern Arab history. This resentment can be felt everywhere; it has taken root in the most Westernised sections of the Arab population, among businessmen and students of science and engineering, and even among the sons of the mega-rich like Osama bin Laden.

However, grievances alone do not explain the apocalyptic act of fury that was unleashed upon New York and Washington. Arabs and Muslims need today to face up to the fact that their resentment at America has long since become unmoored from any rational underpinnings it might once have had; like the anti-Semitism of the interwar years, it is today steeped in deeply embedded conspiratorial patterns of thought rooted in profound ignorance of how a society and a polity like the United States, much less Israel, functions.

Attribution of all of the ills of one's own world to either the great Satan, America, or the little Satan, Israel, has been the driving force of Arab politics since 1967. As a powerful undercurrent of Arab culture and politics, it has been around much longer than that. After 1967, however, it became the legitimising cement upon which such murderous regimes as Saddam Hussein's Iraq were built.

From the hands of secular Arab nationalists, anti-Americanism was passed on to religious zealots. In 1979, it fused with anti-Shah sentiments to become the animating force of the Iranian revolution and, with that seminal event, major sections of the Islamic movement. Today, it has become a murderous brew of passions fuelled by paranoia and frustration.

In the five-page letter left in a suitcase in the car-park of Boston's airport, this passage, giving guidance to the hijackers in case they should meet resistance from a passenger, appears: 'If God grants any one of you a slaughter, you should perform it as an offering on behalf of your father and mother, for they are owed by you. Do not disagree among yourselves, but listen and obey. If you slaughter, you should plunder those you slaughter, for that is a sanctioned custom of the Prophet's, on the condition that you do not get occupied with the plunder so that you would leave what is more important, such as paying attention to the enemy, his treachery and attacks. That is because such action is very harmful [to the mission].'

This is not Islam any more than the Ku Klux Klan is Christianity. No concessions can be made to either mindset which have more in common with one another than they do with the religions they claim to represent.

To argue, as many Arabs and Muslims are doing today (and not a few liberal Western voices), that 'Americans should ask themselves why they are so hated in the world' is to make such a concession; it is to provide a justification, however unwittingly, for this kind of warped mindset. The thinking is the same as the 'linkage' dreamed up by Saddam Hussein when he tried to get the Arab world to believe that he had occupied Kuwait in 1990 in order to liberate Palestine. The difference being that if the argument was intellectually vacuous then, it is a thousand times more so now.

Worse than being wrong, however, it is morally bankrupt, to say nothing of being counterproductive. For every attempt to 'rationalise' or 'explain' the new anti-Americanism rampant in so much of the Muslim and Arab worlds bolsters the project of the perpetrators of the heinous act of 11 September, which is to blur the lines that separate their sect of a few hundred people from hundreds of millions of peace-loving Muslims and Arabs.

But it is now up to Arabs and Muslims to draw the line that separates them from the Osama bin Ladens of this world just as it was up to Americans to excoriate, isolate, outlaw, imprison and eventually root out the members of the Klan from their midst. Mercifully, the very same Western leaders who are preparing for the coming 'War Against Terrorism' are trying hard, and genuinely, to say their efforts are not directed at Muslims and Arab or Muslim culture. Constantly, they are being seen with Muslim clerics and visiting mosques. That is all for the good.

But it is not enough to turn the tide of public opinion which will increasingly need and want to know who is 'the other' in this coming war. Terrorism is a tactic, after all, not a side. Usage of the word 'war', however understandable, was a strategic mistake by the American President. For like the wars on drugs or poverty it inculcates expectations at the risk of showing few results. The problem is deeper than bin Laden and his associates, and will not end with their demise. As I wrote in Cruelty and Silence, citing the 1930s Iraqi alter ego of Tom Lehrer, Aziz Ali, Da' illi beena, minna wa feena: 'The disease that is in us, is from us and within us.' Against this kind of enemy the West can do nothing. We have to do it ourselves.

Muslims and Arabs have to be on the front lines of a new kind of war, one that is worth waging for their own salvation and in their own souls. And that, as good out-of-fashion Muslim scholars will tell you, is the true meaning of jihad, a meaning that has been hijacked by terrorists and suicide bombers and all those who applaud or find excuses for them. To exorcise what they have done in our name is the civilisational challenge of the twenty-first century for every Arab and Muslim in the world today.

� Kanan Makiya. The author, who was born in Iraq, now teaches in the US. His books include Cruelty and Silence: War, Tyranny, Uprising and the Arab World and the forthcoming The Rock.


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--0-986985521-1002681838=:10397-- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: This is not Islam any more than the Ku Klux Klan is Christianity. No concessions can be made to either mindset which have more in common with one another than they do with the religions they claim to represent. To argue, as many Arabs and Muslims are doing today (and not a few liberal Western voices), that 'Americans should ask themselves why they are so hated in the world' is to make such a concession; it is to provide a justification, however unwittingly, for this kind of warped mindset. The thinking is the same as the 'linkage' dreamed up by Saddam Hussein when he tried to get the Arab world to believe that he had occupied Kuwait in 1990 in order to liberate Palestine. The difference being that if the argument was intellectually vacuous then, it is a thousand times more so now. Worse than being wrong, however, it is morally bankrupt, to say nothing of being counterproductive. For every attempt to 'rationalise' or 'explain' the new anti-Americanism rampant in so much of the Muslim and Arab worlds bolsters the project of the perpetrators of the heinous act of 11 September, which is to blur the lines that separate their sect of a few hundred people from hundreds of millions of peace-loving Muslims and Arabs. But it is now up to Arabs and Muslims to draw the line that separates them from the Osama bin Ladens of this world just as it was up to Americans to excoriate, isolate, outlaw, imprison and eventually root out the members of the Klan from their midst. Mercifully, the very same Western leaders who are preparing for the coming 'War Against Terrorism' are trying hard, and genuinely, to say their efforts are not directed at Muslims and Arab or Muslim culture. Constantly, they are being seen with Muslim clerics and visiting mosques. That is all for the good. But it is not enough to turn the tide of public opinion which will increasingly need and want to know who is 'the other' in this coming war. Terrorism is a tactic, after all, not a side. Usage of the word 'war', however understandable, was a strategic mistake by the American President. For like the wars on drugs or poverty it inculcates expectations at the risk of showing few results. The problem is deeper than bin Laden and his associates, and will not end with their demise. As I wrote in Cruelty and Silence, citing the 1930s Iraqi alter ego of Tom Lehrer, Aziz Ali, Da' illi beena, minna wa feena: 'The disease that is in us, is from us and within us.' Against this kind of enemy the West can do nothing. We have to do it ourselves. Muslims and Arabs have to be on the front lines of a new kind of war, one that is worth waging for their own salvation and in their own souls. And that, as good out-of-fashion Muslim scholars will tell you, is the true meaning of jihad, a meaning that has been hijacked by terrorists and suicide bombers and all those who applaud or find excuses for them. To exorcise what they have done in our name is the civilisational challenge of the twenty-first century for every Arab and Muslim in the world today. � Kanan Makiya. The author, who was born in Iraq, now teaches in the US. His books include Cruelty and Silence: War, Tyranny, Uprising and the Arab World and the forthcoming The Rock. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Get your free Yahoo! address at Yahoo! Mail: UK or IE. --0-63968674-1002681915=:10453 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Fighting Islam's Ku Klux Klan

The Muslim world cannot forever attribute all its ills to the Great Satan, America, writes the Iraqi dissident, Kanan Makiya

Kanan Makiya
Sunday October 7, 2001
The Observer

The Arab and Muslim worlds suddenly find themselves facing a civilisational challenge such as they have not had to face since the fall of the Ottoman Empire. For, in the years to come, the greatest price of the madness that was unleashed upon New York and Washington on 11 September will be borne by them and by all individuals of Arab or Muslim origin, wherever they might live in the world.

I am not talking about the next war in Afghanistan or greatly redoubled efforts to hunt down Muslim and Arab terrorists from Boston and Hamburg to Cairo and Karachi. The price I am talking about is not paid in blood or by being the victim of the kinds of humiliating slurs and racist attacks that are everywhere on the rise in the West. It is the much greater price brought about by continuing to wallow in the sense of one's own victimhood to the point of losing the essentially universal idea of human dignity and worth that is the only true measure of civility.

Arab and Muslim resentment at the West is grounded in many grievances, some legitimate, others less so. Without question, the West has blundered in its dealings with the Arab world. The United States has in recent years behaved unjustly towards the Palestinians. The Allied victory in the Gulf War of 1990-1991 was a lost opportunity to rectify this record, to show that the West, and the United States in particular, was capable of reaching out the hand of friendship and support to the peoples of the Arab world, to their democrats and civil libertarians, not merely to a host of tyrannical and unrepresentative regimes.

Like Germans after the First World War, Arabs felt they deserved a different lot after the Gulf War. They thought of themselves as having tried to change the ways they did politics in the past, and got nowhere. Palestinian living standards have actually declined since the Oslo accord in 1993, and Iraqi society (much less its polity and economy) is in a state of steady disintegration. So Arabs grew more resentful and angry at the West than at any other time in modern Arab history. This resentment can be felt everywhere; it has taken root in the most Westernised sections of the Arab population, among businessmen and students of science and engineering, and even among the sons of the mega-rich like Osama bin Laden.

However, grievances alone do not explain the apocalyptic act of fury that was unleashed upon New York and Washington. Arabs and Muslims need today to face up to the fact that their resentment at America has long since become unmoored from any rational underpinnings it might once have had; like the anti-Semitism of the interwar years, it is today steeped in deeply embedded conspiratorial patterns of thought rooted in profound ignorance of how a society and a polity like the United States, much less Israel, functions.

Attribution of all of the ills of one's own world to either the great Satan, America, or the little Satan, Israel, has been the driving force of Arab politics since 1967. As a powerful undercurrent of Arab culture and politics, it has been around much longer than that. After 1967, however, it became the legitimising cement upon which such murderous regimes as Saddam Hussein's Iraq were built.

From the hands of secular Arab nationalists, anti-Americanism was passed on to religious zealots. In 1979, it fused with anti-Shah sentiments to become the animating force of the Iranian revolution and, with that seminal event, major sections of the Islamic movement. Today, it has become a murderous brew of passions fuelled by paranoia and frustration.

In the five-page letter left in a suitcase in the car-park of Boston's airport, this passage, giving guidance to the hijackers in case they should meet resistance from a passenger, appears: 'If God grants any one of you a slaughter, you should perform it as an offering on behalf of your father and mother, for they are owed by you. Do not disagree among yourselves, but listen and obey. If you slaughter, you should plunder those you slaughter, for that is a sanctioned custom of the Prophet's, on the condition that you do not get occupied with the plunder so that you would leave what is more important, such as paying attention to the enemy, his treachery and attacks. That is because such action is very harmful [to the mission].'

This is not Islam any more than the Ku Klux Klan is Christianity. No concessions can be made to either mindset which have more in common with one another than they do with the religions they claim to represent.

To argue, as many Arabs and Muslims are doing today (and not a few liberal Western voices), that 'Americans should ask themselves why they are so hated in the world' is to make such a concession; it is to provide a justification, however unwittingly, for this kind of warped mindset. The thinking is the same as the 'linkage' dreamed up by Saddam Hussein when he tried to get the Arab world to believe that he had occupied Kuwait in 1990 in order to liberate Palestine. The difference being that if the argument was intellectually vacuous then, it is a thousand times more so now.

Worse than being wrong, however, it is morally bankrupt, to say nothing of being counterproductive. For every attempt to 'rationalise' or 'explain' the new anti-Americanism rampant in so much of the Muslim and Arab worlds bolsters the project of the perpetrators of the heinous act of 11 September, which is to blur the lines that separate their sect of a few hundred people from hundreds of millions of peace-loving Muslims and Arabs.

But it is now up to Arabs and Muslims to draw the line that separates them from the Osama bin Ladens of this world just as it was up to Americans to excoriate, isolate, outlaw, imprison and eventually root out the members of the Klan from their midst. Mercifully, the very same Western leaders who are preparing for the coming 'War Against Terrorism' are trying hard, and genuinely, to say their efforts are not directed at Muslims and Arab or Muslim culture. Constantly, they are being seen with Muslim clerics and visiting mosques. That is all for the good.

But it is not enough to turn the tide of public opinion which will increasingly need and want to know who is 'the other' in this coming war. Terrorism is a tactic, after all, not a side. Usage of the word 'war', however understandable, was a strategic mistake by the American President. For like the wars on drugs or poverty it inculcates expectations at the risk of showing few results. The problem is deeper than bin Laden and his associates, and will not end with their demise. As I wrote in Cruelty and Silence, citing the 1930s Iraqi alter ego of Tom Lehrer, Aziz Ali, Da' illi beena, minna wa feena: 'The disease that is in us, is from us and within us.' Against this kind of enemy the West can do nothing. We have to do it ourselves.

Muslims and Arabs have to be on the front lines of a new kind of war, one that is worth waging for their own salvation and in their own souls. And that, as good out-of-fashion Muslim scholars will tell you, is the true meaning of jihad, a meaning that has been hijacked by terrorists and suicide bombers and all those who applaud or find excuses for them. To exorcise what they have done in our name is the civilisational challenge of the twenty-first century for every Arab and Muslim in the world today.

� Kanan Makiya. The author, who was born in Iraq, now teaches in the US. His books include Cruelty and Silence: War, Tyranny, Uprising and the Arab World and the forthcoming The Rock.


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--0-63968674-1002681915=:10453-- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Saying it with white Arjun Seluja, is a fashion designer who divides his time between Delhi and New York. He was dismayed to find a building with flags in all its windows. "In Chelsea, Rehan, in Chelsea." In a gay bar, also in Chelsea, a white man stepped on his toe to make a point. "In a gay bar, Rehan!" Arjun is also horrified by what he saw happen to the New York fashion week after September 11. All of haute couture worked to change their lines. They chose to work exclusively in white. I walked into a magazine office in midtown the other day and noticed the secretary was frantically searching on the Internet. She told me she was looking for bin Laden's zodiac sign. These are strange signs of the coming of a strange prophet. A prince, a prophet Of Bush and Osama who do you think is the prophet? Both are talking about the war between good and evil. Both claim God is on their side. Bush talks from the capital of the empire, the Rome of our time, and Osama is a man living in the middle of the desert. A prince who has given up on the princely life and lives in the poorest country in the world. He also speaks poetically. The US should vacate the Arabian peninsula, the life of a Palestinian should be as peaceful as that of an American (at the risk of sounding redundant this means that we are all equal) and that the US must stop supporting the client states of Arabia and Egypt. A perfect rhyme. A racial profiling of Osama would be the same as many a Judaeo Christian prophet, who is in the service of a wrathful god. I think if Osama didn't look so damn Middle Eastern, had the blonde hair and blue eyes of a Christmas pageant Jesus, Bush might dream about negotiation. God knows there are few creative ideas in the Muslim world. No new ideas about democracy, no new news on despotism and no revolution in gender relations. The last time the Iranians had a new idea was when they threw out the West. That was almost 25 years ago. Now bin Laden has a new idea: throw the political west out of the Middle East. This is an idea in a land parched for one. It has the poetry of justice. This is why every western reporter is hearing this from the mouth of his or her Egyptian, Arabian and, even, Pakistani interviewee. Storm clouds of change My father and I had the ritual of going to the same prayer ground for the Id ki namaaz in Karachi. We were always late, so when I was four, he would pick me up chuckling "mulla bol para" and start running. The other thing I remember from then, and is true to this day, is how in the prayer there was talk of the freedom of the Palestinians and Kashmiris. I remember the names of these causes when I didn't know what they stood for. My father introduced me to the Israeli conflict. He took the side of the Israelis. Against the unending retrogressiveness of the Arabian Peninsula he was also for the Israelis for their back to the wall, preemptive, survival against all odds. I think he recognised the kinship as his family had escaped the teeth of the Delhi riots and had clawed their way out of Jacob Lines, a notorious refugee colony of Karachi. As for Kashmir, I got sick of it having realised that everything in Pakistan is mortgaged to it. It is very discomforting to recognise in the video messages of Osama his determination to change the status quo because, well, it's been so for too long. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. --0-921072927-1002902506=:61576 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

 
Osama - the high priest!
 By: Rehan Ansari
 October 11,2001

Before the fortress like walls of a monastery in Manhattan, a Rastafarian was chanting O-sama, O-sama... Only the two desis in the lineup of tourists laughed at the sight.

The Cloisters is an unused monastery on the northern tip of Manhattan, around 200th street. It is open to the public as a park and a museum. It seems a brainchild of an American capitalist from the pages of P G Wodehouse. Buy a British castle and have it transported brick by brick to New York. It is most authentic, and together with the herb gardens, gives the feeling of Europe and old civilisation. From the heights of the monastery you can see the Hudson valley and in the other direction New York.

From the shadows of the monastery I can hear the chants of Osama.

Saying it with white
Arjun Seluja, is a fashion designer who divides his time between Delhi and New York. He was dismayed to find a building with flags in all its windows. "In Chelsea, Rehan, in Chelsea."

In a gay bar, also in Chelsea, a white man stepped on his toe to make a point. "In a gay bar, Rehan!"

Arjun is also horrified by what he saw happen to the New York fashion week after September 11. All of haute couture worked to change their lines. They chose to work exclusively in white.

I walked into a magazine office in midtown the other day and noticed the secretary was frantically searching on the Internet. She told me she was looking for bin Laden's zodiac sign.

These are strange signs of the coming of a strange prophet.

A prince, a prophet
Of Bush and Osama who do you think is the prophet? Both are talking about the war between good and evil. Both claim God is on their side. Bush talks from the capital of the empire, the Rome of our time, and Osama is a man living in the middle of the desert. A prince who has given up on the princely life and lives in the poorest country in the world. He also speaks poetically.

The US should vacate the Arabian peninsula, the life of a Palestinian should be as peaceful as that of an American (at the risk of sounding redundant this means that we are all equal) and that the US must stop supporting the client states of Arabia and Egypt. A perfect rhyme.

A racial profiling of Osama would be the same as many a Judaeo Christian prophet, who is in the service of a wrathful god. I think if Osama didn't look so damn Middle Eastern, had the blonde hair and blue eyes of a Christmas pageant Jesus, Bush might dream about negotiation.

God knows there are few creative ideas in the Muslim world. No new ideas about democracy, no new news on despotism and no revolution in gender relations. The last time the Iranians had a new idea was when they threw out the West. That was almost 25 years ago. Now bin Laden has a new idea: throw the political west out of the Middle East. This is an idea in a land parched for one. It has the poetry of justice. This is why every western reporter is hearing this from the mouth of his or her Egyptian, Arabian and, even, Pakistani interviewee.

Storm clouds of change
My father and I had the ritual of going to the same prayer ground for the Id ki namaaz in Karachi. We were always late, so when I was four, he would pick me up chuckling "mulla bol para" and start running. The other thing I remember from then, and is true to this day, is how in the prayer there was talk of the freedom of the Palestinians and Kashmiris.

I remember the names of these causes when I didn't know what they stood for. My father introduced me to the Israeli conflict. He took the side of the Israelis. Against the unending retrogressiveness of the Arabian Peninsula he was also for the Israelis for their back to the wall, preemptive, survival against all odds.

I think he recognised the kinship as his family had escaped the teeth of the Delhi riots and had clawed their way out of Jacob Lines, a notorious refugee colony of Karachi. As for Kashmir, I got sick of it having realised that everything in Pakistan is mortgaged to it.

It is very discomforting to recognise in the video messages of Osama his determination to change the status quo because, well, it's been so for too long.



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Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.


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Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. --0-921072927-1002902506=:61576-- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: A new and different page. One daughter of the Punjab did scream You covered our walls with your laments.' Millions of daughters weep today And call out to Waris Shah: 'Arise you chronicler of our inner pain And look now at your Punjab; The forests are littered with corpses And blood flows down the Chenab.' Kashmir is the unfinished business of Partition. The agreement to divide the subcontinent had entailed referendums and elections in the Muslim majority segments of British India. In the North-West Frontier Province, which was 90 per cent Muslim, the Muslim League had defeated the anti-Partition forces led by Ghaffar Khan. It did so by intimidation, chicanery and selective violence. The Muslim League never won a free election there again and Ghaffar Khan spent much of the rest of his life - he died in the 1980s - in a Pakistani prison accused of treason. His defeat seemed to prove that secular Muslim leaders, despite their popularity, were powerless against the confessional tide. Would Sheikh Abdullah be able to preserve a united Kashmir? In constitutional terms, Kashmir was a 'princely state', which meant that the Maharaja had the legal right to choose whether to accede to India or to Pakistan. In cases where the ruler did not share the faith of a large majority of his population it was assumed he would nevertheless go along with the wishes of the people. In Hyderabad and Junagadh - Hindu majority, Muslim royals - the rulers wobbled, but finally chose India. Jinnah began to woo the Maharaja of Kashmir in the hope that he would decide in favour of Pakistan. This enraged Sheikh Abdullah. Hari Singh vacillated. Kashmir's accession wa st 1947 and the Union Jack was lowered for the last time. Independence. There were now two armies in the subcontinent, each commanded by a British officer and with a very large proportion of British officers in the senior ranks. Lord Mountbatten, the Governor-General of India, and Field Marshal Auchinleck, the Joint Commander-in-Chief of both armies, made it lear to Jinnah that the use of force in Kashmir would not be tolerated. If it was attempted, Britain would withdraw every British officer from the Pakistan Army. Pakistan backed down. The League's traditional toadying to the British played a part in this decision, but there were other factors: Britain exercised a great deal of economic leverage; Mountbatten's authority was resented but could not be ignored; Pakistan's civil servants hadn't yet much self-confidence. And, unknown to his people, Jinnah was dying of tuberculosis. Besides, Pakistan's first Prime Minister, Liaquat Ali Khan, an upper-class refugee from India, was not in any sense a rebel. He had worked too closely with the departing colonial power to want to thwart it. He had no feel for the politics of the regions that now comprised Pakistan and he didn't get on with the Muslim landlords who dominated the League in the Punjab. They wanted to run the country and would soon have him killed, but not just yet. Meanwhile, something had to be done about Kashmir. There was unrest in the Army and even secular politicians felt that Kashmir, as a Muslim state, should form part of Pakistan. The Maharaja had begun to negotiate secretly with India and a desperate Jinnah decided to authorise a military operation in defiance of the British High Command. Pakistan would advance into Kashmir and seize Srinagar. Jinnah nominated a younger colleague from the Punjab, Sardar Shaukat Hyat Khan, to take charge of the operation. Shaukat had served as a captain during the war and spent several months in an Italian POW camp. On his return he had resigned his commission and joined the Muslim League. He was one of its mo devoted to Jinnah, extremely hostile to Liaquat, whom he regarded as an arriviste, and keen to earn the title of 'Lion of the Punjab' that was occasionally chanted in his honour at public meetings. An effete and vainglorious figure, easily swayed by flattery, Shaukat was a chocolate-cream soldier. It was the unexpected death of his father, the elected Prime Minister of the old Punjab, that had brought him to prominence. He was not one of those people who rise above their own shortcomings in a crisis. I knew him well: he was my uncle. To his credit, however, he argued against the use of irregulars and wanted the operation to be restricted to retired or serving military personnel. He was overruled by the Prime Minister, who insisted that his loud-mouthed prot�, Khurshid Anwar, take part in the operation. Anwar, against all military advice, enlisted Pathan tribesman in the cause of jihad. Two extremely able brigadiers, Akbar Khan and Sher Khan from the 6/13th Frontier Force Regiment ('Piffers' to old India hands), were selected to lead the assault. The invasion was fixed for 9 September 1947, but it had to be delayed for two weeks: Khurshid Anwar had chosen the same day to get married and wanted to go on a brief honeymoon. In the meantime, thanks to Anwar's lack of discretion, a senior Pakistani officer, Brigadier Iftikhar, heard what was going on and passed the news to General Messervy, the C-in-C of the Pakistan Army. He immediately informed Auchinleck, who passed the information to Mountbatten, who passed it to the new Indian Government. Using the planned invasion as a pretext, the Congress sent Nehru's deputy, Sardar Patel, to pressure the Maharaja into acceding to India, while Mountbatten ordered Indian Army units to prepare for an emergency airlift to Srinagar. Back in Rawalpindi, Anwar had returned from his honeymoon and the invasion began. The key objective was to take Srinagar, occupy the airport and secure it against the Indians. Within a week the Maharaja's army had collapsed. Hari Singh fled to h h Regiment of the Indian Army had by now reached Srinagar, but was desperately waiting for reinforcements and didn't enter the town. The Pathan tribesman under Khurshid Anwar's command halted after reaching Baramulla, only an hour's bus ride from Srinagar, and refused to go any further. Here they embarked on a three-day binge, looting houses, assaulting Muslims and Hindus alike, raping men and women and stealing money from the Kashmir Treasury. The local cinema was transformed into a rape centre; a group of Pathans invaded St Joseph's Convent, where they raped and killed four nuns, including the Mother Superior, and shot dead a European couple sheltering there. News of the atrocities spread, turning large numbers of Kashmiris against their would-be liberators. When they finally reached Srinagar, the Pathans were so intent on pillaging the shops and bazaars that they overlooked the airport, already occupied by the Sikhs. The Maharaja meanwhile signed the accession papers in favour of India and demanded help to repel the invasion. India airlifted troops and began to drive the Pakistanis back. Sporadic fighting continued until India appealed to the UN Security Council, which organised a ceasefire and a Line of Control (LOC) demarcating Indian and Pakistan-held territory.* Kashmir, too, was now partitioned. The leaders of the Kashmir Muslim Conference shifted to Muzaffarabad in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, leaving Sheikh Abdullah in control of the valley itself. If Abdullah, too, had favoured Pakistan, there wouldn't have been much that the Indian troops could have done about it. But he regarded the Muslim League as a reactionary organisation and rightly feared that if Kashmir became part of Pakistan, the Punjabi landlords who dominated the Muslim League would stand in the way of any social or political reforms. He decided to back the Indian military presence, provided the Kashmiris were allowed to determine their own future. At a mass rally in Srinagar, Nehru, with Abdullah at his side, publicly promised as much ointed Prime Minister of an Emergency Administration. When the Maharaja expressed nervousness about this, Nehru wrote to him, insisting that there was no alternative: 'The only person who can deliver the goods in Kashmir is Abdullah. I have a high opinion of his integrity and his general balance of mind. He may make any number of mistakes in minor matters, but I think he is likely to be right in regard to major decisions. No satisfactory way out can be found in Kashmir except through him.' In 1944 the National Conference had approved a constitution for an independent Kashmir, which began: We the people of Jammu and Kashmir, Ladakh and the Frontier regions, including Poonch and Chenani districts, commonly known as Jammu and Kashmir State, in order to perfect our union in the fullest equality and self-determination, to raise ourselves and our children for ever from the abyss of oppression and poverty, degradation and superstition, from medieval darkness and ignorance, into the sunlit valleys of plenty, ruled by freedom, science and honest toil, in worthy participation of the historic resurgence of the peoples of the East, and the working masses of the world, and in determination to make this our country a dazzling gem on the snowy bosom of Asia, do propose and propound the following constitution of our state . . . But the 1947-48 war had made independence impossible, and Article 370 of the Indian Constitution recognised only Kashmir's 'special status'. True, the Maharaja was replaced by his son, Karan Singh, who became the non-hereditary head of state, but it was a disappointed Abdullah who now sat down to play chess with the politicians from Delhi. He knew that most of them, apart from Gandhi and Nehru, would like to eat him alive. For the moment, though, they needed him. Since the split with the confessional element in the Jammu and Kashmir Conference, Abdullah had moved to the left. As the elected Chief Minister of Kashmir he pushed through a set of major reforms, the most important of which was the 'la n, which destroyed the power of the landlords, most of whom were Muslims. They were allowed to keep a maximum of 20 acres, provided they worked on the land themselves: 188,775 acres were transferred to 153,399 peasants, while the Government organised collective farming on 90,000 acres. A law was passed prohibiting the sale of land to non-Kashmiris, thus preserving the basic topography of the region. Dozens of new schools and four hospitals were built, and a university was founded in Srinagar with perhaps the most beautiful location of any campus in the world. These reforms were regarded as Communist-inspired in the United States, where they were used to build support for America's new ally, Pakistan. A classic example of US propaganda is Danger in Kashmir, written by Josef Korbel. Korbel had been a Czech UN representative in Kashmir before he defected to Washington. His book was published by Princeton in 1954, and in the second edition, in 1966, Korbel acknowledged the 'substantial help' of several scholars, including Mrs Madeleine Albright of the Russian Institute at Columbia University - his daughter. In 1948 the National Conference had backed 'provisional accession' to India, on condition Kashmir was accepted as an autonomous republic with only defence, foreign affairs and communications conceded to the centre. A small but influential minority, made up of the Dogra nobility and the Kashmiri Pandits, fearful of losing their privileges, began to campaign against Kashmir's special status. In India proper, they were backed by the ultra-right Jan Sangh (which in its current reincarnation as the Bharatiya Janata Party heads the coalition Government in New Delhi). The Jan Sangh provided funds and volunteers for agitation against the Kashmir Government. Abdullah, who had gone out of his way to integrate non-Muslims at every level of the Administration, was enraged. His position hardened. At a public meeting in the enemy stronghold of Jammu on 10 April 1952, he made it clear that he was not willing to surrender K Many Kashmiris are apprehensive as to what will happen to them and their position if, for instance, something happens to Pandit Nehru. We do not know. As realists, we Kashmiris have to provide for all eventualities . . . If there is a resurgence of communalism in India how are we to convince the Muslims of Kashmir that India does not intend to swallow up Kashmir? Abdullah was mistaken only in his belief that Nehru would protect them. When the Indian Prime Minister visited Srinagar in May 1953 he spent a week trying to cajole his friend into accepting a permanent settlement on Delhi's terms: if a secular democracy was to be preserved in India, Kashmir had to be part of it. Nehru pleaded. Abdullah wasn't convinced: Muslims were a large minority in India even if Kashmiris weren't included. He felt that Nehru shouldn't be putting pressure on him but on politicians inside the Congress who were susceptible to the chauvinistic demands of the Jan Sangh. TThree months later, Nehru gave in to the chauvinists and authorised what was effectively a coup in Kashmir. Sheikh Abdullah was dismissed by Karan Singh and one of his lieutenants, Bakhshi Ghulam Mohammed, was sworn in as Chief Minister. Abdullah was accused of being in contact with Pakistani intelligence and arrested. Kashmir erupted. A general strike began which was to last for twenty days. There were several thousand arrests and Indian troops repeatedly opened fire on demonstrators. The National Conference claimed that more than a thousand people were killed: official statistics record 60 deaths. An underground War Council, organised by Akbar Jehan, orchestrated demonstrations by women in Srinagar, Baramulla and Sopore. The unrest subsided after a month, but now Kashmiris were even more suspicious of India. The situation was no happier in Pakistani-controlled Kashmir, which had the additional disadvantage of being made up of the least attractive part of the old state, a barren moonscape. Appalling living conditions gave rise to large-scale economic migratio s live in Birmingham and Bradford than in Mirpur or Muzaffarabad. An Islamist Kashmiri sits in the House of Lords as a new Labour peer; another Kashmiri is the Tory candidate for Bolton East. Sheikh Abdullah, detained for four years without trial, was released without warning one cold morning in January 1958. Declining the offer of government transport, he hired a taxi and was driven to Srinagar. Within days he was drawing huge crowds at meetings all over the country, which he used to remind Nehru of the promise he had made in 1947. 'Why did you go back on your word, Panditji?' Abdullah would ask, and the crowds would echo the question. By spring, he had been arrested again. This time the Indian Government, using British colonial legislation, began to prepare a conspiracy case against him, his wife and several other nationalist leaders. Nehru vetoed Akbar Jehan's inclusion: her popularity made it inadvisable. The conspiracy trial began in 1959 and lasted more than a year. In 1962 the special magistrate transferred the case to a higher court with the recommendation that the accused be tried under sections of the Indian penal code for which the punishment was either death or life imprisonment. In December 1963, with the higher court still considering the conspiracy charges, the single hair of the Prophet's head was stolen from the Hazrat Bal shrine in Srinagar. Its theft created uproar: an Action Committee was set up and the country was paralysed by a general strike and mass demonstrations. A distraught Nehru ordered that the strand of hair be found - and it was, within a week. But was it the real thing? The Action Committee called on religious leaders to inspect it. Faqir Mirak Shah, regarded as 'the holiest of the holy men', announced that it was genuine. The crisis abated. Nehru concluded that a lasting solution had to be found to the problem of Kashmir. He had the conspiracy case against Abdullah dropped, and the Lion of Kashmir was released after six years in prison. A million people lined the streets to necessity of ending hostilities between India and Pakistan. Kashmir troubled Nehru's conscience. He met Abdullah in Delhi and told him that he wanted the problem of Kashmir resolved in his lifetime. He suggested that Abdullah visit Pakistan and sound out its leader, General Ayub Khan. If Pakistan was ready to accept a solution proposed by Abdullah, then Nehru would, too. For a start, India was prepared to allow free movement of goods and people across the ceasefire line. Abdullah flew to Pakistan in an optimistic mood. After a series of conversations with Ayub Khan he felt progress was being made. On 27 May 1964, he reached Muzaffarabad, the capital of Pakistani-controlled Kashmir, and was cheered by a large crowd. He was addressing a press conference when a colleague rushed in to inform him that All India Radio had just announced Nehru's death. Sheikh Abdullah broke down and wept. He cancelled all his engagements and, accompanied by Pakistan's Foreign Minister, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, flew back to Delhi to attend his old friend's funeral. Fearing that there would be no peaceful solution without Nehru, Abdullah travelled around the world, trying to get international support, and was received in several capitals with the honours accorded a visiting head of state. His meeting with the Chinese Prime Minister Zhou En Lai ('Chew and Lie' in the ultra-patriotic sections of the Indian press) created a furore in India. And so, on his return, Abdullah was imprisoned again. This time he and his wife were sent to prisons far away from Kashmir. The response was the usual: strikes, demonstrations, arrests and a few deaths. Encouraged by this, the military regime in Pakistan despatched several platoons of irregulars in September 1965, hoping to spark off an uprising. As usual, they had misjudged the situation. The unrest was not an expresion of pro-Pakistan sentiments. The Pakistan Army crossed the Line of Control, aiming to cut Kashmir off from the rest of India. The Military High Command was confident. On the eve of t ted Field Marshal Ayub Khan had boasted that they might even be able to take Amritsar - the Indian town closest to Lahore - as a bargaining chip. A senior officer present (another of my uncles) muttered loudly: 'Give him a few more whiskies and we'll take Delhi as well.' The Indian Army, caught by surprise, suffered serious reverses. They responded dramatically by crossing the Pakistan border near Lahore. Had the war continued, the city would have fallen, but Ayub Khan appealed to Washington for support. Washington asked Moscow to bring pressure on India and a peace agreement was signed in Tashkent under the watchful eye of Alexei Kosygin. The war had been Bhutto's idea. Ayub Khan, publicly humiliated at home and abroad, sacked his Foreign Minister. Bhutto had always been the most awkward member of the Government and, embarrassed at having to serve under a general, he had ratcheted up his nationalist rhetoric. Government ministers, fearing trouble, tended to avoid the universities, but a few years before this, in 1962, Bhutto had decided to address a student meeting on Kashmir at the Punjab University in Lahore, at which I was present. He spoke eloquently enough, but we were more concerned with domestic politics. We began to talk to each other. He was offended. He stopped in mid-flow and glared at us aggressively. 'What the hell do you want? I'll answer your questions.' I raised my hand. 'We're all in favour of a democratic referendum in Kashmir,' I began, 'but we would like one in Pakistan as well. Why should anybody take you seriously on democracy in Kashmir when it doesn't exist here?' He glared at me angrily, but wouldn't be drawn, pointing out that he had only agreed to speak on Kashmir. At this point the meeting erupted, with everyone demanding a reply and chanting slogans. At one point Bhutto took off his jacket and challenged a heckler to a boxing match outside. This was greeted with jeers and the meeting came to an abrupt halt. That night Bhutto cursed us roundly as one drained whisky glass after a an affectation he had picked up during an official trip to Moscow. Many months later he told me that the encounter had made him realise how powerful the students were. A week after Bhutto's dismissal in spring 1966 - by which time I was a student in the UK - I received a phone call from J.A. Rahim, Pakistan's Ambassador to France. He needed to see me in Paris the next day. He would pay my return ticket and offered the bribe of a 'sensational lunch'. An Embassy chauffeur picked me up at Orly and drove me to the restaurant. His Excellency, a cultured Bengali in his late fifties, greeted me with a conspiratorial warmth, which was surprising since we had never met. Halfway through the hors-d'oeuvres he lowered his voice and asked: 'Don't you think the time has come to get rid of the Field Marshal?' Concealing my surprise, not to mention fear, I asked him to elaborate. He raised his hand above the table, pointed two fingers at me and pulled an imaginary trigger. He wanted me to help organise Ayub Khan's assassination. My instinctive reaction was to forget the main course and leave. How could this be anything other than a set-up? Rahim ordered another bottle of Ch�au Latour, courtesy of the Pakistan Government. I pointed out the danger of removing an individual military leader while leaving the institution intact. In any case, I added, it would be difficult for me to organise the assassination from Oxford. He glared at me. 'Drastic action is needed,' he said, 'and you're just trying to avoid the issue. The Army is enfeebled after this wretched war. Everyone is fed up. Remove him and anything is possible. I'm surprised at you. I don't expect you to do it yourself. One of your uncles is always boasting about the hereditary assassins in your villages who've acted for your family in the past.' I tried to talk about Kashmir but Rahim wasn't interested. 'Kashmir,' he said, 'is irrelevant. It's the dictatorship we're after.' A week later, Rahim resigned his ambassadorship. A few months after that he turned up in Lo moned me to the Dorchester. I had heard that Bhutto was depressed, but there was no trace of it that day. Conscious of the shortness of life, he was the sort of man who was determined that it should flash by with brilliance, romance and verve. He could also be silly, arrogant, childish and vindictive - defects which cost him his life. At one point, when Rahim was out of the room, I began to describe our lunch in Paris, but Bhutto already knew about it. He laughed and insisted that Rahim had just been testing me. Then he whispered: 'When you met Rahim in Paris did he introduce you to his new mistress?' I shook my head regretfully. 'I'm told she's very pretty and very young. He's hiding her from me. I was hoping you might have . . . ' Rahim came back with a bulky typescript. It was the manifesto of the Pakistan People's Party, which he had drafted on Bhutto's instructions. 'Go into the next room, read it carefully and tell me what you think,' Bhutto ordered. 'I want you to become a founding member.' I was halfway through it when the author walked in with an apologetic smile. 'Bhutto wants to be alone. He's booked a call to Geneva. Did you know he's got a Japanese mistress there? Have you met her?' I shook my head. 'He's hiding her from me,' Rahim said. 'I wonder why.' I finished reading the manifesto. It was strong on anti-imperialist rhetoric, self-determination for Kashmir, land reform, nationalisation of industry, but far too soft on religion. I couldn't associate myself with a party that wasn't 100 per cent secular and Rahim smiled in agreement, but Bhutto was angry and denounced us both. Later that evening, during dinner, I asked why he had embroiled the country in an unwinnable war. The reply was breathtaking. 'It was the only way to weaken the bloody dictatorship. The regime will crack wide open soon.' Subsequent events appeared to vindicate Bhutto's judgment. In 1968 a prolonged uprising of students and workers finally toppled it. The traditional parties on the Left had not grasped the importanc ning, but Bhutto put himself at the head of the revolt, promised that after the people's victory, they would 'dress the generals in skirts and parade them through the streets like performing monkeys', and prospered politically. When I met him in Karachi in August 1969, he was in ebullient mood. The stopgap dictator had promised a general election and he was sure his party would win. Once again he mocked me for refusing to join. 'There are only two ways: mine or Che Guevara's. Are you planning to start a guerrilla war in the mountains of Baluchistan?' Bhutto scored an amazing triumph in the 1970 election, but only in West Pakistan. In what was then East Pakistan and is now Bangladesh the nationalist leader Sheikh Mujibur Rehman and his Awami League won virtually every seat. Since 60 per cent of the population lived in East Pakistan, Mujib gained an overall majority in the National Assembly and expected to become Prime Minister. The Punjabi elite refused to hand over power and instead arrested him. General Yahya ('fuck-fuck' in Lahori Punjabi) Khan attempted to crush the Bengalis, and Bhutto, desperate for power, supported him. It was his most shameful hour. A Bangladeshi Government-in-Exile was set up in neighbouring Calcutta. Millions of refugees poured into the Indian province of West Bengal and, finally, at the request of the Bengali leaders in exile, the Indian Army moved into East Pakistan to be greeted by the population as liberators. Pakistan surrendered and Bangladesh was born. Bhutto came to power in a truncated Pakistan, but the old game was over: in 1972, at the Indian hill resort of Simla, he agreed to the status quo in Kashmir and in return got back the 90,000 soldiers who had been captured after the fall of Dhaka in what had been East Pakistan. In Kashmir every political group, with the exception of the confessional Jamaat-i-Islami, was shocked by the brutalities inflicted on fellow Muslims in Bengal. Had a referendum been held at this point, a majority would have opted to remain within the refused to take the risk. Pakistan's reputation continued to sink when its third military dictator, a Washington implant called Zia-ul-Haq, executed Bhutto in 1979 after a rigged trial. A large rally in Srinagar turned into a prayer meeting for the dead leader. Sheikh Abdullah (released from prison on grounds of ill-health in the mid-1970s) had made his peace with Delhi and was again appointed Chief Minister in 1977, courtesy of Mrs Gandhi, who forced Congress yes-men in the Kashmir Assembly, themselves elected by dubious means, to switch sides and vote for him. The change-over was calm: Kashmiris were pleased at Abdullah's return, but mindful of the fact that Mrs Gandhi was calling the tune. Abdullah seemed stale and tired, his time in prison had affected both his health and his politics. He now mimicked other subcontinental potentates by attempting to create a political dynasty. It's said that Akbar Jehan insisted he do so and that he was too old and weak to resist. At a big rally in Srinagar he named his oldest son, Farooq Abdullah - an amiable doctor, fond of wine and fornication, but not very bright - as his successor. As he lay dying in 1982, Sheikh Abdullah told an old friend of a dream that had haunted him for the past thirty years. 'I am still a young man. I'm dressed as a bridegroom. I'm on horseback. My bridal party leaves our home with all the fanfare. We head in the direction of the bride's house. But when I arrive she's not there. She's never there. Then I wake up.' The missing bride, so it has alway seemed to me, was Nehru. Abdullah had never fully recovered from his betrayal. In 1984 I asked Indira Gandhi about India's loss of nerve over Kashmir. She didn't offer any explanation for the failure to hold a referendum and agreed that 1979 might have been the time to take the risk, but, she reminded me with a smile, 'I was not in power that year. If I had been Prime Minister,' she added, 'I would not have let them hang Bhutto next door.' When I met Sheikh Abdullah's son at a conclave o parties in Calcutta, he was scathing about Delhi's failures, but still convinced that a referendum would not go Pakistan's way. 'She's getting too old,' he said about Mrs Gandhi. 'Look at me. Who am I? In Indian terms a nobody. A provincial politician. If she had left me alone there would have been no problems. Her Congressmen in Kashmir were bitter at having been defeated so they began to agitate, but for what? For power which the electorate had denied them. I met Mrs Gandhi a number of times to assure her that we were loyal, intended to remain so and wanted friendly relations with the centre. Her paranoia was such that she wanted one to be totally servile. That was impossible. So she gave the Kashmir Congress the green light to disrupt our Government's functioning. It was she who made me a national leader. I would have been far happier left alone in our lovely Kashmir. ' When I passed this on to her, Mrs Gandhi snorted derisively. 'Yes, yes, I know that's what he says. He said similar things to me, but he acts differently. Tells too many lies. The boy is totally untrustworthy.' Meanwhile her 'sources' had informed her that Pakistan was preparing a military invasion of Kashmir. Could this be so? I doubted it. General Zia-ul-Haq was brutal and vicious, but he wasn't an idiot. He knew that to provoke India would be fatal. In addition, the Pakistan Army was busy fighting the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. To open a second front in Kashmir would be the height of irrationality. 'I'm surprised at you,' she said. 'You of all people believe that generals are rational human beings?' 'There is a difference between irrationality and suicide,' I said. She smiled, but didn't reply. Then, to demonstrate the inadequacies of the military mind, she described how after Pakistan's surrender in Bangladesh, her generals had wanted to continue the war against West Pakistan, to 'finish off the enemy'. She overruled them and ordered a ceasefire. Her point was that in India the Army was firmly under civilian control, but in P unto itself. Later that evening - I was staying in Delhi - I received a phone call from a civil servant. 'I believe you had a very interesting discussion with the PM. We have an informal discussion club meeting tomorrow and would love you to come and talk to us.' The members of the club were civil servants, intelligence operatives and journalists from both the US and Soviet lobbies. They tried to convince me that I was wrong, that the Pakistani generals were planning an attack. After two hours of argument and counter-argument I began to tire. 'Listen,' I said, 'if you lot are preparing a pre-emptive strike against Zia or the nuclear reactor in Kahuta, that's your decision. You might even win support in Sind and Baluchistan, but don't expect the world to believe you acted in response to Pakistani aggression. It's simply not credible at the moment.' The meeting came to an end. Back in London I described these events to Bhutto's daughter, Benazir. 'Why did you deny that Zia was planning to invade Kashmir?' she interrupted. Four months later Mrs Gandhi was assassinated by her Sikh bodyguards. A civil servant I met in Delhi the following year told me they had evidence linking the assassins with Sikh training camps in Pakistan set up with US assistance with a view to destabilising the Indian Government. He was sure the US had decided to eliminate Mrs Gandhi in order to prevent a strike against Pakistan that would have derailed the West's operation in Afghanistan. Bhutto certainly believed that Washington had orchestrated the coup which toppled him. He smuggled out a testament from his death-cell which included Kissinger's threat to 'make a horrible example' of him unless he desisted on the nuclear question. Many people in Bangladesh still insist that the CIA, using the Saudis as a conduit, was responsible for Mujib's downfall. Mujib's daughter Haseena, currently Prime Minister of Bangladesh, was out of the country and thus the only member of the family to survive. The US may or may not have been involved, but it space of a decade three populist politicians, each hostile to US interests in the region, had been eliminated. After the break-up of 1971, Pakistan appeared to lose interest in Kashmir and South Asia as a whole. A young and ambitious State Department official visited the country in 1980, a year after Bhutto's execution, and advised Zia to look towards the petrodollar surplus being accumulated by Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States. Pakistan's large army was well positioned to guarantee the status quo in the Gulf. The Arabs would pay the bill. Francis Fukuyama's position paper, 'The Security of Pakistan: A Trip Report', was taken very seriously by the military dictatorship. Officers and soldiers were despatched to Riyadh and Abu Dhabi to strengthen internal security. Salaries were much higher there and a posting to the Gulf was much sought after. Pakistan also exported carefully selected prostitutes, recruited from elite women's colleges. Islamic solidarity recognised no bounds. With Islamabad's attention elsewhere, the Indian Government could have reached an amicable settlement in Kashmir. But during the 1980s India interfered in the region with increasing ferocity, dismissing elected governments, imposing states of emergency, alternating soft and hard governors. Delhi's favourite despot, Jagmohan, was responsible for the suppression of the ultra-secular Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front and the imprisonment and torture of its leader, Maqbool Bhat. Young Kashmiri men were arrested, tortured and killed by Indian soldiers; women of all ages were abused and raped. The aim was to break the will of the people, but instead many young men now took up arms without bothering where they came from. I had met Bhat in Pakistani-controlled Kashmir in the early 1970s. He seemed equally hostile to Islamabad and New Delhi and determined to remake a Kashmir that was not a helpless dependant of either. He was a great admirer of Che Guevara and when I talked to him, in the euphoric aftermath of the 1969 uprising in Pakistan t yub Khan, he was dreaming of a quick victory in Kashmir. When I suggested that the rickety enthusiasm of a tiny minority was not enough, he reminded me that every revolutionary group (Cuba, Vietnam, Algeria) had started off as a minority. The Indian authorities arrested Bhat in 1976, and charging him with the murder of a policeman, sentenced him to death. He was kept in prison as a bargaining counter until 1984, when he was executed in response to the kidnapping and murder of an Indian diplomat by Kashmiri militants in Birmingham. The vacuum he left would soon be filled by the men with beards, infiltrated, armed and funded by Pakistan. By the late 1990s, after years of intra-Muslim factional violence, Afghanistan had come under the control of the Taliban - themselves funded, armed and sustained by the Pakistan Army. Pakistan itself was in the grip of corrupt politicians, and sectarian infighting was claiming dozens of lives each month. In India, the Congress Party had lost its hold on national politics, paving the way for the Hindu fundamentalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP). In Kashmir the number of armed Islamist groups multiplied as more and more veterans of the Afghan war came across the border to continue their fight for supremacy there. The main rivals were the indigenous Hizbul Mujahideen and the Pakistani-sponsored and armed Lashkar-i-Tayyaba and Harkatul Mujahideen.� The groups killed each other's militants, kidnapped Western tourists, drove Kashmiri Hindus out of regions where they had lived for centuries, punished Kashmiri Muslims who remained stubbornly secular and occasionally knocked off a few Indian soldiers and officials. Each group was willing when convenient to make terms with Delhi rather than combine with other groups to inflict punishment on the Indian Government. Governor Jagmohan responded by making it as hard as he could for these Muslim groups to find new recruits. Night-long house-to-house searches became a part of everyday life. Young men were abducted by Indian soldiers, never to g memoirs, Frozen Turbulence, Jagmohan explained: 'Obviously, I could not walk barefoot in a valley full of scorpions. I could leave nothing to chance.' The result of his policy was to win support for the gunmen. Kashmir was ruled, more or less unhappily, by Delhi until 1996, when Farooq Abdullah came back to power - most of the other parties boycotted the elections. Since then his collaboration with the BJP has destroyed his remaining reputation and if a free election were permitted, his career as a politician would soon be over. The Indian and Pakistani Armies are among the largest in the world. In September 1998, the Pakistani High Command decided to test Indian border defences in the virtually undefended Kargil-Drass region, a Himalayan wasteland 14,000 feet above sea-level where Kashmir meets Pakistan and China. The region is one of mountain ridges and deep valleys, with temperatures averaging -20�c; it is also an area colonised by wild yellow roses, which bloom for a month each summer; the petals are eaten by villagers, who believe the rose nourishes the body and heals the soul. Most of the villagers are Shiite Muslims or Buddhists who live quiet, harmonious lives, sharing, among other things, an aversion to the Sunni fundamentalist imports from next door. The Pakistani Army, wholeheartedly backed by Nawaz Sharif's Government, crossed the Line of Control accompanied, just as it had been in 1947 and 1965, by soldiers disguised as irregulars and Lashkar-i-Tayyaba contingents, and occupied several ridges and villages. The Indian Army moved troops to the area from Srinagar and artillery duels became a daily nightmare for the locals. Why had Pakistan embarked on an adventure of such obvious strategic futility? There was no possibility of triumphant entrances by victorious generals or politicians. Most Pakistani citizens, other than the Islamists, knew very little about what was happening in the mountains. Nor were they particularly interested in the fate of Kashmir. The real reasons for the war were ide aeed, the head mullah of the Lashkar, told Pamela Constable of the Washington Post: 'Revenge is our religious duty. We beat the Russian superpower in Afghanistan; we can beat the Indian forces too. We fight with the help of Allah, and once we start jihad, no force can withstand us.' His argument was echoed by Pakistani officials. The Indians weren't as powerful as the Russians and since they no longer possessed a nuclear monopoly in the region there was no danger that a limited war would escalate. Second, and more important, Pakistan's actions would internationalise the conflict and bring the United States 'on side', as in Afghanistan and the Balkans. In the war-zone itself, India suffered initial reverses, then brought in more troops, helicopter gunships and fighter jets and began to bomb Pakistani installations across the border. If Nato could overfly borders without any legal sanction, so could they. By May 1999, as the yellow roses were about to bloom, the Indian Army had retaken most of the ridges it had lost. A month later its forces were poised to cross the Line of Control. Pakistan's political leaders panicked and, falling back on an old habit, made a desperate appeal to the White House. A US general was sent to Pakistan to have a quiet word with the military, and Nawaz Sharif was summoned to the White House. Clinton told him to withdraw all his troops, as well as the fundamentalists, from the territory they had occupied. Nothing was promised in return. No pressure on India. No money for Pakistan. Sharif capitulated. His Information Minister, Mushahid Hussain, had told the press just before the Washington visit that 'we did not start insurgency in Kashmir which is populous [sic], spontaneous and indigenous and we cannot stop it.' But they did. The dispute had indeed been internationalised, though not exactly as Pakistan had wanted. With China as the main enemy, Washington had dumped on Pakistan and was leaning heavily in India's direction. In private, Sharif told the Americans that he supported a d had resisted the Kargil war, but had been outmanoeuvred by the Army. The lie went down well in Washington and Delhi, but angered the Pakistani High Command. When he got home, Sharif hatched a plan to replace the Commander-in-Chief of the Army, General Pervaiz Musharraf, with one of his placemen, General Khwaja Ziaudin, Head of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), regarded by many as the 'invisible government'. Sharif's brother Shahbaz made an unpublicised visit to Washington with Ziaudin in tow in order to get approval for Ziaudin's appointment. The two men were received at the White House, the Pentagon and the CIA and made many rash promises. On 11 October 2000, while Musharraf was on his way back from a three-day official visit to Sri Lanka, Nawaz Sharif announced his dismissal and Ziaudin's promotion. The authorities at Karachi airport were instructed to divert the General's plane to a tiny airstrip in the interior of Sind, where he would be taken into custody. But the Army refused to accept Ziaudin's authority and the Karachi commander occupied the airport and ordered the plane to land. Musharraf was received with full military protocol. The Army commander in the capital arrested the Sharif brothers and General Ziaudin. This was the first coup d'�t carried out in the face of explicit American instructions to the contrary: in a statement issued three days before these events, Clinton had warned against a military takeover. In Pakistan the fall of the Sharif brothers was celebrated on the streets of every city. Musharraf pledged to wipe out corruption, restore standards in public life and, in an unguarded interview, stressed his affinity with Kemal Ataturk, the founder of secular Turkey. No restrictions were placed on the press or political parties. Nearly two years later, Musharraf's early anti-corruption zeal has dissipated. The fiercely incorruptible General Amjad was transferred from the Accountability Bureau to a military command in Karachi: he had amassed evidence revealing extensive corruptio try. Supreme Court judges were for sale to the highest bidder (defence lawyers asked clients for six-figure sums as the 'judge's fee', payable before a trial began); many senior civil servants were on the payroll of big business and the narco-barons; businessmen pocketed bank loans worth billions of rupees; senior military officers had succumbed to bribery. Amjad insisted to no avail that the new regime clean up the Armed Forces. Unless retired and serving officers were tried, sentenced and punished, he believed, Pakistan would remain a failed state, dependent on foreign handouts and a black economy fuelled by narco-profits. His transfer shows that he lost this battle. Many people in Pakistan had assumed that Musharraf would disarm the Islamists and restore a semblance of law and order in the big cities. Here, too, the regime has made little progress, because it underestimated Islamist penetration of the Army. In Lahore last December, I was told about a disturbing incident. The Indians had informed their Pakistani counterparts that one of the peaks in Kargil-Drass was still occupied by Pakistani soldiers, contrary to the ceasefire agreement. A senior officer went to investigate and ordered the captain in charge of the peak to return to the Pakistani side of the Line of Control. The captain accused his senior officer and the military High Command of betraying the Islamist cause, and shot the officer dead. The Islamist officer was finally disarmed, tried by a secret court-martial and executed. If, as is widely agreed, between 25 and 30 per cent of the Army are Islamists, its reluctance to act against the jihadis is understandable: it is nervous of provoking a civil war. Musharraf has a serious problem - and it's not just his problem. The fundamentalists' boast that in ten years' time they will control the Army and hence Pakistan conjures a deadly image: an Islamist finger on the nuclear trigger. This is what has concentrated minds in Washington, Delhi and Beijing, but so far with little to show for it. Nei urs the cause of Kashmiri independence. Nor does Beijing, worried about the ramifications in Tibet. And yet independence is what the Kashmiri people appear to want. In the valley itself, Farooq Abdullah and his BJP chums, backed by Karan Singh, are plotting a Balkanisation of the province, dividing it into eight units along religio-ethnic lines. The J&K Liberation Front meanwhile has published a map showing their favoured boundaries for an independent Kashmir, made up of territory currently occupied by India, Pakistan and China. Hashim Qureshi, one of the leaders of the organisation, told me that they did not want all the paraphernalia of a modern state. They weren't interested in having an army. They would be happy for their frontiers to be guaranteed by China, India and Pakistan, so that Kashmir, the cause of three wars, could become a secular, multicultural paradise, open to citizens of both India and Pakistan. At the moment it is a noble, but utopian hope. The political landscape is exceptionally bleak. (A pamphlet issued by a Jihadi group in Pakistan a few weeks ago calls for donations to fund the struggle: the total launch-fee for a jihad is Rs140,000; the price of a Kalashnikov is given as Rs20,000; a single bullet is Rs35; a Kenwood wireless is Rs28,000.) The chapter of South Asian history that opened with the Partition of 1947 needs to be closed. There are now three large states in the region: India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, with a combined population of well over a billion people. One out of every five people in the world lives in South Asia. Economic and political logic dictates the formation of a South Asia Union, a voluntary confederation of republics. Within such a framework, Kashmir could be guaranteed complete autonomy by both India and Pakistan. Shared sovereignty must be better than none at all. The US likes to play the role of supreme arbiter, but its solutions always serve its own interests. It would make more sense for the South Asian states and other regional powers such as China to nd speak to each other directly. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: epressed. In order to say � as Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi did, controversially, this month - whether any one culture is superior to another, parameters have to be established. A culture can be described objectively - these people behave like this; believe in spirits or in a single divine being that pervades the whole of nature; meet in family clans according to these rules; consider it beautiful to pierce their noses with rings (this could be a description of western youth culture); consider pork to be impure; circumcise themselves; raise dogs for the pot on public holidays or, as the English and Americans still say of the French, eat frogs. Obviously, the anthropologist knows that objectivity is always limited by many factors. The criteria of judgment depend on our own roots, preferences,habits, passions, our system of values. For example: do we consider that the prolonging of the average life span from 40 to 80 years is worthwhile? I personally believe so, but many mystics could tell me that, between a glutton who lives for 80 years and Saint Luigi Gonzaga, who only survived for 23, it was the latter who had the fuller life. Do we believe that technological development, the expansion of trade, and faster transport is worthwhile? Many think so, and judge our technological civilisation as superior. But, within the western world itself, there are those who primarily wish to live in harmony with an uncorrupted environment,and are willing to relinquish air travel, cars and refrigerators, to weave baskets and travel on foot from one village to another, as long as the ozone hole isn�t there. So in order to define one culture as better than another, it is not enough to describe it (as the anthropologist does), but it is advisable to have recourse to a system of values which we do not feel we can relinquish. Only at this point can we say that our culture is better, for us. How absolute is the parameter of technological development? Pakistan has the atom bomb, not Italy. So is Italy an infe e respect the Islamic world by being reminded that it has given us men like Avicenna (who was actually born in Buchara, not far from Afghanistan) and Averroes, as well as Al-Kindi, Avenpace, Avicebron, Ibn Tufayl, or that great historian of the 14th century Ibn Khaldoun, whom the west considers as the father of the social sciences.The Arabs of Spain cultivated geography, astronomy, mathematics or medicine when the Christian world was lagging far behind in those subjects. We might recall that those Arabs of Spain were fairly tolerant of Christians and Jews, while we gave rise to the ghettoes, and that Saladin, when he reconquered Jerusalem, was more merciful to the Christians than the Christians had been to the Saracens when they took over Jerusalem. All very true, but in the Islamic world there are fundamentalist and theocratic regimes today which the Christians do not tolerate, and Bin Laden was not merciful to New York. The Taliban destroyed the great stone Buddhas with their cannon: conversely, the French carried out the St Bartholomew�s day massacre, but this gives no one the right to say they are barbarians today. History is a two-edged sword. The Turks were impalers (and that�s bad) but the orthodox Byzantines put out the eyes of their dangerous relatives and the Catholics burned Giordano Bruno; Saracen pirates did many wicked things,but the buccaneers of his British majesty set fire to the Spanish colonies in the Caribbean; Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein are ferocious enemies of western civilisation, but within western civilisation there were men like Hitler and Stalin. No, the problem of parameters is not set within history, but in our times.One of the praiseworthy aspects of western culture (free and pluralistic,and these are values which we consider basic and essential) is that it has been long held that the same person can employ different parameters which may be mutually contradictory on different matters. For example, the prolonging of life is considered good, and atmospheric pollution bad, that maybe in big laboratories where they study how to prolong life, there might be power systems which themselves produce pollution. Western culture has developed the capacity to freely lay bare its own contradictions. Maybe they remain unresolved, but they are well known and admitted: how can we manage some positive globalisation while avoiding the risks and injustices that follow; how can we prolong life for the millions of Africans dying of Aids (while at the same time prolonging our own lives) without accepting a planetary economy which causes people to die of hunger and Aids, and makes us eat polluted food? But it is just this criticism of parameters, pursued and encouraged by the west, that makes us understand how delicate the matter is. Is it just and proper to protect bank secrets? Many people think so. But if this secrecy allows terrorists to keep their accounts in the City of London then is this defence of so-called privacy a positive value or a doubtful one? We are always calling our parameters into question. The western world does so to such an extent as to allow its own citizens to turn down technological development and become Buddhists, or go and live in communities where no tyres are used, not even for horse-drawn carts. The west has decided to channel money and effort into studying other customs and practices, but no one has really given other people the chance to study western customs and practices, except at schools maintained by white expatriates, or by allowing the rich from other cultures to study in Oxford or Paris. What happens then is that they return home to organize fundamentalist movements, because they feel solidarity with those of their compatriots who lack the opportunity for such education. An international organisation called Transcultura has been campaigning for an �alternative anthropology� for some years. It has taken African researchers, who have never been to the west before, to describe provincial France and society in Bologna. Both sides started to take a ge look at each other, and some interesting discussions took place. At present, three Chinese - a philosopher, an anthropologist and an artist - are completing a Marco Polo voyage in reverse, culminating in a conference in Brussels in November. Imagine Muslim fundamentalists being invited to research Christian fundamentalism (not the Catholics this time, but American Protestants, more fanatical than ayatollahs, who try to expunge all reference to Darwin from schools). In my opinion the anthropological study of other people�s fundamentalism leads to a better understanding of one�s own. Let them come and study our concept of holy war (I could commend many interesting texts to them, including some quite recent ones). They might then take a more critical view of the idea of holy war back home. We are a pluralist civilisation because we allow mosques to be built in our countries, and we are not going to stop simply because Christian missionaries are thrown into prison in Kabul. If we did so, we too would become Taliban. The parameter of tolerating diversity is certainly one of the strongest and least open to argument. We consider our culture mature because it can tolerate diversity, and those who share our culture, while rejecting diversity to be uncivilised, period. We hope that, if we allow mosques in our countries, one day there will be Christian churches in their countries, or at least Buddhas won�t get blown up there. If we believe we have got our parameters right, that is. But there is a great deal of confusion. Funny things happen these days. It seems that defending western values has become a rightwing prerogative, while the Left, as ever, is pro-Islamic. Now, apart from the pro-third world, pro-Arab stance of some rightwing and Catholic activist circles, and so on, this ignores a historical phenomenon which is there for all to see. The defence of scientific values, of technological development and modern western culture in general, has always been characteristic of secular andprogressive political circ ommunist regimes have relied on an ideology of technological and scientific progress. The 1848 Communist Manifesto opens with a dispassionate eulogy on the expansion of the bourgeoisie. Marx does not say it is necessary to change direction and go over to Asian means of production. He merely says that the proletariat must learn to master these values and successes. Conversely it has always been reactionary thought (in the best sense of the word), at least starting from the rejection of the French revolution, which has opposed the secular ideology of progress and propounded a return to traditional values. Only a few neo-Nazi groups have a mythical notion of the west and would be ready to slit the throats of all Muslims at Stonehenge.The more serious traditionalist thinkers have always looked to Islam as a source of alternative spirituality, in addition to the rites and myths of primitive peoples and the teachings of Buddhism. They have always made a point of reminding us that we are not superior, but impoverished by our ideology of progress, and that we must seek the truth among the Sufi mystics or the whirling dervishes. Thus a strange dichotomy is now opening on the right. But perhaps it is only a sign that, at times of great bewilderment (such as the present), no one knows quite where they stand any more. But it is at times of bewilderment that the weapon of analysis and criticism comes into its own, to be applied to our own superstitions and those of others. � La Repubblica From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: > > > by Ayeda > > > 10. Friendly troops > > 9. Silent majority > > 8. Taliban moderates > > 7. Humanitarian aid > > 6. Military control > > 5. Stable Afghan government > > 4. Mid-East peace > > 3. American diplomacy > > 2. Indian intelligence > > 1. Front-line reporting (as in: in front of the > Marriott) > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: http://india.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=242 > Chomsky's programme in India > by Ravi 8:27am Mon Nov 5 '01 > ravia_ravia at yahoo.com > > Noam Chomsky is in India on a > three-week visit, and will be > speaking in Delhi, Kolkata, > Chennai and > Thiruvananthapuram. And then in Lahore and Islamabad. > Noam and Carol Chomsky are in India on a three > week > visit, after which they will visit Pakistan. Noam > Chomsky has a number of public lectures in India. A > schedule of his main public engagements on this > November 2001 visit to India and Pakistan is > included at the end. > > Noam Chomsky is Institute Professor at the > Massachusetts > Institute of Technology (MIT). Renowned scholar, > path-breaker in linguistics, philosopher, media critic, > political analyst, author of many books, winner of > many awards and prizes. ``Arguably the most > important intellectual alive'' and ``perhaps the > clearest voice of dissent in American history'' (The > New York Times). > > Schedule of Noam Chomsky's main public > engagements in India and Pakistan, November 2001: ... > Nov 5 -- Lecture, ``Militarism, Democracy and > People's Right to Information,'' organised by the > National Campaign for the Peoples' Right to > Information. Venue: Delhi School of Economics, > Delhi. > > Nov 10 -- Lecture, ``September 11 and its > Aftermath: Where is the World Heading?'' > sponsored by Frontline and Media Development > Foundation (MDF) and supported by 22 > representative organisations. > Venue: Music Academy auditorium, Chennai. > > Nov 11 -- Lecture, ``Globalisation and Human > Survival: The Challenges After the 11th of > September,'' organised by E.M.S. Academy Trust. > Venue: EMS Academy, Thiruvanthapuram. > > Nov 20 -- Lecture, ``September 11 and Its > Aftermath: Where is the World Heading?'' Venue: > Science City Auditorium, Kolkata. Chief Minister > Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee presides. > > Nov 22 -- Special Convocation at University of > Calcutta for the award of Degree of Doctor of > Literature (Honoris Causa) to Noam Chomsky. > Venue: Centenary Hall, University of Calcutta, > Kolkata. > > Nov 24 -- 3rd Eqbal Ahmad Distinguished Lecture, > ``Searching for Universal Human Values: Prospects, > Limits, Barriers.'' Venue: > Khorshed Mahal, Avari Hotel, Lahore. > > Nov 26 -- 4th Eqbal Ahmad Distinguished Lecture, > ``Our Endangered Species,'' Venue: The National > Library, Islamabad. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Afghans are racing to catch up from a five-year time warp. The radical Islamic rulers banned everything from kite-flying to women walking too loudly. Listening to nonreligious music was forbidden as well. Taliban roadblocks across the country were festooned with tangled strands of shiny black magnetic tape, ripped from confiscated video and music cassettes. Those who are providing the new window on the world can barely keep up with the public appetite for once-forbidden fruit. Take Gholam Farouk, a TV and stereo salesman who has the smile of a born conspirator. In his shop today, there is standing room only as customers jostle to buy TVs, VCRs, and satellite dishes. Before Northern Alliance rebels took control of the city Nov. 13, his entire stock was hidden in a secret warehouse. Only simple radios lined the shelves. Even those were enough to bring an agent of the Taliban's vice ministry to his narrow doorway earlier this year. "You should burn everything in your shop," Mr. Farouk says he was told. "Then you should burn me with it," he retorted, initially denying the existence of his warehouse. The Taliban eventually forced him to divulge his stash: Inside they found 18 televisions, 22 video players, a video camera, and eight satellite dishes. Farouk was held in jail for 15 days. After he got out, he replenished his stock. And the moment he learned that the Taliban had fled last week, he emptied the warehouse into the shop. The crush of people asking for prices all day, he says, made his head hurt. "There were many Pakistanis and Arabs [with the Taliban], who wanted to keep us in the dark. They didn't want to show their faces," says Ismatollah Hairan, a customer in the shop. "TV is good for children and for everybody, because we can see what is happening in the world." The cultural restrictions imposed by the Taliban - and the quiet opposition to it - were not limited to the airwaves. Mahboub Sharifi secretly collected 500 videocassettes which he rented to friends. "We had shelves at home with secret places carved out behind, where we kept the tapes," Mr. Sharifi says. "It was a miracle that I was never caught." Today, his inventory lines one wall of his shop. The latest James Bond film, "The World is Not Enough," and other Hollywood releases, are outnumbered by Indian titles with alluring women on the covers. They share space with sugary fruit-juice boxes, detergent, and cans of Pepsi Cola. His co-conspirators were a number of Pakistani travel agents who ferried videos, and even the Taliban themselves, whom he says he bribed at checkpoints. Business is booming. Sharifi rents 40 to 50 tapes per night, he says, at about 50 cents each. But cash wasn't the only reason he began this line of work. "I was so bored, and there were so many like me - we couldn't do anything we wanted," Sharifi says, as customers outside his shop eyeball film posters. "I needed money, but it was against the Taliban. That's why we did it." Change is evident almost everywhere in Kabul. Afghan TV began broadcasting again on Monday, with women newsreaders returning to the airwaves (the Taliban had banned women from work outside the home) wearing only headscarves, not the previously required head-to-toe burqas. Not even a Harry Potter premi� in New York or London could match the enthusiasm of crowds outside the Bakhtar Cinema in downtown Kabul this week. Rioting broke out Monday when the theater opened. In the first three days, some 3,000 people have crammed the dusty hallways and big auditorium of the cinema - lending an odorous air of suffocation as Afghan and Indian films played scratchily on the big screen. "People love the cinema very much, and we were very sad and depressed during these five years," says Hossein Ahmadi, the ticket taker who hid five of the movie "pie tins" in his own home. His eyes twinkle at the thought of the return of his celluloid heroes. The building was one of 17 cinemas in the city that have been locked for half a decade. Now, a long string of bikes owned by moviegoers are lined up outside. Guards at the entrance frisk every ticketholder. Numbers are issued, and patrons must handover brass knuckles, switchblades, radios - even Kalashnikov assault rifles - at the door. Upstairs, the projector clatters with the sound of the silver screen era; projectionist Mohamed Yassin - until days ago, selling trousers and shirts on the street - is back at his old job. "Many people love to watch films; we don't have any other amusements," he says, rewinding the movies manually, "dusting" the film as it pulls through his fingers. "This is the place people come to have fun." But as Afghans crowd into the dark cavern of the theater - eager to escape the harsh realities of their nation after two decades of war - what is it they choose to watch? An Afghan-made film called "Horouj" ("Offensive") - about mujahideen fighters on the battlefront. Copyright � 2001 The Christian Science Monitor. -- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Kashmir was conquered by an Afghan ruler in 1752.Mughal,Afghan,Sikh and Dogra rule are all equally and deeply resented in Kashmir. Yet another name which comes up in connection to Kashmir is that of Sheikh Muhammad Abdullah ? Kashmir�s tallest political leader, Sheikh Muhammad Abdullah organized and then split the Muslim opposition to Dogra rule-the Muslim Conference. Abdullah split Muslim Conference to form National Conference which in turn espoused secular, democratic politics and forged close ties with the nationalist struggle in India.Many Leftists in Kashmir joined National Conference.The CPI (then united) sees in Kashmir,"the launcing pad for socialism in South Asia". What is the Naya Kashmir Manifesto ? Is it like the Communist Manifesto ? Well, the spirit is the same. National Conference adopted the Naya Kashmir Manifesto in 1942.It envisaged radical social change. Abdullah launched a Quit Kashmir movement in 1946. Was it like the Quit India movement ? More of an anti-feudal struggle, Quit Kashmir movement drew its inspiration from the Quit India movement .Sheikh Abdullah declared that �Quit Kashmir is not a question of revolt. It is a matter of right.� The struggle carried on upto 1947.This struggle has been brilliantly documented by Pandit Prem Nath Bazaz in Frredom Struggle in Kashmir. That again brings us to 1947 ? Hari Singh, to save his throne toyed with the idea of an independent Kashmir. By August 1947,a �standstill agreement� between the Maharaja and Pakistan put Kashmir�s Post and Telegraph services and the supply of essential commodities under Pakistan. But the Maharaja acceded to India ? Whether Maharaja acted hastily isn't too clear but he had no choice. Revolt in Poonch had brought in tribal invaders from Pakistan's North West.The communal situation in Jammu had further complicated matters.By late October,the tribal invaders had closed in on Srinagar.Hari Singh signed the Instrument of Accession to India on 26 October 1947(there is a serious controversy over t airlifted from Delhi held back the raiders and this led to the first Indo-Pak war over Kashmir. And the outcome of this war? UN intervention.United Nations brokered the Ceasefire that left two-thirds of Jammu and Kashmir with India and the rest with Pakistan. That settled it then. The Indian Jammu and Kashmir becomes an integral part of India.Isn�t it ? Things were far more complicated than that. Pandit Nehru, the then Prime Minister of India, didn�t want what he called forced unions. India wanted the accession to be ratified by the people of Jammu and Kashmir with a referendum held under international auspices. In an address to the nation on 3rd November, 1947, Pandit Nehru said, "We have declared that the fate of Kashmir is ultimately to be decided by the people. That pledge we have given not only to the people of Kashmir but to the world. We will not and cannot back out of it". You imply Plebiscite ? India�s and Pakistan�s commitment to the idea of a referendum or Plebiscite led the United Nations Commission on India and Pakistan to adopt resolutions of August 13,1948 on Kashmir that envisaged plebiscite in J&K.Now these are the UN Resolutions on Kashmir. Wasn�t there any plebiscite ? No. Partly because both India and Pakistan had serious doubts on their chances. What is the Article 370 ? The Instrument of Accession limited the accession to defence, foreign affairs and communications. India�s Constituent Assembly inserted a special provision in the Indian Constitution, Article 306A,that allowed for such autonomy to J&K- even this was supposed to be �an interim system�. This is the pre-1953 status of J&K. Article 306A later on became Article 370 which didn�t CONFER any status on J&K but CONFIRMED the status which the State already enjoyed. If plebiscite didn�t happen, then�? Sheikh Abdullah was frustrated by the deadlock over Kashmir .This led Abdullah to form the Constituent Assembly of J&K in 1951 for which the National Conference won all 75 seats unopposed. THIS Constitue ly, the representative character of which has been questioned, ratified Kashmir�s accession to India and enshrined Article 306A as Article 370 of the Indian Constitution. This came to be known as the Delhi Agreement. Why then was Sheikh Abdullah arrested in 1953 ? Sheikh Abdullah was believed to be seriously thinking of an independent Kashmir. Though there was flimsy evidence ,Sheikh was arrested in 1953.Sheikh�s meetings with Adlai Stevenson and the US ambassador Loy Henderson had created enough suspicion. Bakshi Ghulam Muhammad who was installed in his place accused Sheikh Abdullah of trying to set up another Korea in Kashmir and argued for closer union to India. Sheikh Abdullah was detained under the Kashmir Conspiracy Case. And yes, why is Lal Chowk called so ? Lal Chowk is named after Red Square. There was a strong Kashmiri Left movement in `40s and `50s.The anti-feudal struggle in Kashmir was imbued with socialist ideals that led to radical Land Reforms in 1950. Why did India go back on its commitment on plebiscite ? This happened in 1954 when Pakistan joined an American military alliance and India announced that Kashmir�s accession to India is final and the elections to the Constituent Assembly should be considered surrogate for plebiscite. When Khruschev, the then General Secretary of the CPSU visited Kashmir, Kashmir was refered to as � one of the states of India�. But the incorporation of J&K was officially declared to be complete on 26 January 1957.Thus the 1949 Ceasefire line became the de facto border between India and Pakistan dividing Kashmir. So what did the Sheikh and his friends do ? Mirza Afzal Begh, a close confidante of Sheikh, formed the Plebiscite Front that campaigned for a plebiscite to settle the Kashmir problem. What about Bakshi Ghulam Muhammad ? Bakshi Ghulam Muhammad was Shiekh Abdullah�s lieutenant until 1953. Bakshi, G M Sadiq and Begh were Sheikh Abdullah�s closest associates and leaders of the National Conference. Bakshi deposed Sheikh for maneuv Kashmir and succeeded in passing a resolution in the J&K Constituent Assembly that declared Kashmir to be an integral part of India. Bakshi gave an effective but corrupt administration. Weren�t there any elections in Kashmir ? In 1957 Bakshi�s party won the elections,43 of the seats unopposed .Again in 1972,Bakshi�s party won 70 seats. Both the elections were widely believed to be rigged. The only reasonably fair elections in Kashmir were held in 1977 in which Sheikh Abdullah won a landslide victory. In 1967,the Congress party won the elections by getting 118 nomination papers cancelled. In 1964,the Constitution of J&K was amended-the Prime Minister of J&K was now to be the Chief Minister and the President was replaced by a Governor to be appointed by the Centre. The Sadiq faction of the National Conference became the local Congress. And the Plebiscite Front ? Many leaders of the Kashmiri secessionism became associated with politics when Sheikh Abdullah was sent to prison in 1953. Wasn�t there any popular protest by Kashmiris ? Of course. All this was to later explode in an angry outburst that had a discernible anti-India tenor in 1963 over the theft of the hair of Prophet Muhammad from the Hazratbal mosque at Srinagar . This came to be known as the Moe-Muqaddas agitation. It galvanized Kashmiri masses into political agitation. Finally Sheikh Abdullah was released. The Moe-Muqaddas agitation was interpreted by Pakistan as pro-Pakistan sentiment and encouraged them to attack Kashmir in 1965. Why was Sheikh Abdullah released ? Nehru urged Sheikh to travel to Pakistan to push for a lasting solution to the Kashmir problem. It was believed that Nehru wanted Abdullah to suggest a confederation between India, Pakistan and Kashmir. Did Sheikh Abdullah travel to Pakistan ? Sheikh Abdullah and Mirza Afzal Begh traveled to Pakistan on 24 May,1964. But the Sheikh�s deliberations in Pakistan were hastily aborted by Nehru�s demise on May 27, 1964. And then? Jayaprakash Narain, the res er visited Pakistan. Lal Bahadur Shastri and Ayub Khan met in Karachi yet there was no end to the stalemate over Kashmir. Any other protests in Kashmir ? Kashmir was relatively calm but the extension of Article 356 and 357 that gave the Union government of India powers to impose President�s rule in J&K sparked off protests. And Sheikh Abdullah? Abdullah traveled to London and Algiers. Abdullah�s meeting with the Chinese Prime Minister Chou En Lai angered New Delhi. Abdullah�s passport was cancelled by India. Sheikh rejected the offer of a Pakistani passport only to be arrested on his return .The Valley burst out in protest as the Lion of Kashmir was incarcerated in Kodaikanal , Tamil Nadu. What about the 1965 War between India and Pakistan on Kashmir ? Or the Operation Gibraltar. Between June and August 1965 there was Pakistani infiltration in Kashmir. It was believed by Pakistan that Kashmiris will join the infiltrators and Pakistan Army will intervene to free Kashmir. However, Kashmiris didn�t side with the infiltrators. A full-fledged India-Pakistan war broke out in 1965. And what happened? A Ceasefire was announced on 13 September ,1965 to end a war which was never formally declared. Both India and Pakistan were frustrated by Western intervention and Soviet Union moved to help India and Pakistan reach an agreement. Ayub and Shastri met in Tashkent. �The Tashkent Declaration� of 10 January,1966 underplays Kashmir. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, the then Foreign Minister of Pakistan, saw it as a sellout on Kashmir and was forced to resign. The Plebiscite Front-what about them? The Plebiscite Front decided to contest the local elections in 1969 and was all set to participate in the State elections.It was then that Plebiscite Front was banned by India in 1971. Isn�t 1971 the year of yet another Indo-Pak war? The war is preceded by the Ganga Hijacking. An Indian Airlines plane called Ganga is hijacked to Lahore by two Kashmiris. Before India responds to the hijackers' demands the passen are set free by the hijackers and the plane is set on fire. The Ganga hijacking is mired in controversy. All these events renew hostility between India and Pakistan while accusations and counteraccusations are hurled. And then we witnessed another Indo-Pak war �Though the war wasn�t fought on Kashmir, did it have any effect on the Kashmir problem? It demoralized the Kashmiri leadership as they thought that after its triumph in the war India won�t relent to a compromise on Kashmir. What is the Simla Agreement? Simla Agreement is the agreement between the then Pakistani Prime Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto and the then Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, signed on 2nd July 1972 which formally ended the 1971 war. It envisages a peaceful relationship between the two countries which is sought to be governed by the principal of bilateralism .The Simla Agreement has been brought into play by India to rule out any third party intervention on Kashmir as well as to soft-pedal the Kashmir issue even as Pakistan takes it to mean that Kashmir can be settled through bilateral negotiations. How did the Kashmiri leadership react to these developments ? They reacted with their own �compromise� on Kashmir. Sheikh signed an accord on November 13, 1974 with Indira Gandhi which came to be known as the Beg- Parthasarthy Accord or the Kashmir Accord of 1975.Sheikh Abdullah became Chief Minister but at the cost of huge and unpopular concessions to the Centre. And then Sheikh Abdullah remained Chief Minister? Until Sheikh died in 1982.Farooq Abdullah, Sheikh�s son, took over. Farooq�s National Conference swept the polls in 1984. Why then was Farooq Abdullah dismissed in 1984 ? Farooq Abdullah was �punished� by Indira Gandhi. Farooq had organized a conclave of Opposition parties in Srinagar which angered Mrs.Gandhi enough to engineer the split in National Conference that brought Farooq�s brother-in-law G M Shah as Chief Minister. Farooq�s dismissal is mired in controversy. Ironically this was the first t olitics had attempted to connect itself to India�s national politics. How long did G M Shah stay as Chief Minister? G M Shah�s rule was quite unpopular �the State government resorted to curfews to quell opposition. Jagmohan , the then governor of J&K, took over from Shah as Governor�s rule was imposed in J&K. And Farooq Abdullah? Farooq Abdullah was elbowed into an alliance by the Congress(I) government at the Centre. National Conference-Congress(I) alliance faced Muslim United Front-the Muslim Opposition that also comprised the secessionists in an election in 1987. The keenly contested election ended in widespread rigging to bring back Farooq into power. For Kashmiris the NC- Congress(I) alliance gave the impression of a sellout and revived memories of 1975 Kashmir Accord which had �defanged� the Lion of Kashmir,Sheikh Abdullah. National Conference brutally suppressed the secessionists .The �unholy alliance� and the State repression built the legitimacy for the armed rebellion. Many in the Opposition felt betrayed by India. Like who? Like Syed Salahudin, the Supreme Commander of the Hizbul Mujahideen, who �lost� the Amirakadal Constituency in Srinagar to National Conference in the 1987 State Assembly elections. Many of the militant leaders of the 1990s had participated in the 1987 election campaign of the Muslim United Front. So that brings us close to the Kashmir Uprising in early 1990? It formally begins with the JKLF�s sporadic acts of violence in 1988 and 1989.1990 becomes the year of the Kashmiri Uprising against the Indian State. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Kashmir was conquered by an Afghan ruler in 1752.Mughal,Afghan,Sikh and Dogra rule are all equally and deeply resented in Kashmir. Yet another name which comes up in connection to Kashmir is that of Sheikh Muhammad Abdullah ? Kashmir�s tallest political leader, Sheikh Muhammad Abdullah organized and then split the Muslim opposition to Dogra rule-the Muslim Conference. Abdullah split Muslim Conference to form National Conference which in turn espoused secular, democratic politics and forged close ties with the nationalist struggle in India.Many Leftists in Kashmir joined National Conference.The CPI (then united) sees in Kashmir,"the launcing pad for socialism in South Asia". What is the Naya Kashmir Manifesto ? Is it like the Communist Manifesto ? Well, the spirit is the same. National Conference adopted the Naya Kashmir Manifesto in 1942.It envisaged radical social change. Abdullah launched a Quit Kashmir movement in 1946. Was it like the Quit India movement ? More of an anti-feudal struggle, Quit Kashmir movement drew its inspiration from the Quit India movement .Sheikh Abdullah declared that �Quit Kashmir is not a question of revolt. It is a matter of right.� The struggle carried on upto 1947.This struggle has been brilliantly documented by Pandit Prem Nath Bazaz in Frredom Struggle in Kashmir. That again brings us to 1947 ? Hari Singh, to save his throne toyed with the idea of an independent Kashmir. By August 1947,a �standstill agreement� between the Maharaja and Pakistan put Kashmir�s Post and Telegraph services and the supply of essential commodities under Pakistan. But the Maharaja acceded to India ? Whether Maharaja acted hastily isn't too clear but he had no choice. Revolt in Poonch had brought in tribal invaders from Pakistan's North West.The communal situation in Jammu had further complicated matters.By late October,the tribal invaders had closed in on Srinagar.Hari Singh signed the Instrument of Accession to India on 26 October 1947(there is a serious controversy over t airlifted from Delhi held back the raiders and this led to the first Indo-Pak war over Kashmir. And the outcome of this war? UN intervention.United Nations brokered the Ceasefire that left two-thirds of Jammu and Kashmir with India and the rest with Pakistan. That settled it then. The Indian Jammu and Kashmir becomes an integral part of India.Isn�t it ? Things were far more complicated than that. Pandit Nehru, the then Prime Minister of India, didn�t want what he called forced unions. India wanted the accession to be ratified by the people of Jammu and Kashmir with a referendum held under international auspices. In an address to the nation on 3rd November, 1947, Pandit Nehru said, "We have declared that the fate of Kashmir is ultimately to be decided by the people. That pledge we have given not only to the people of Kashmir but to the world. We will not and cannot back out of it". You imply Plebiscite ? India�s and Pakistan�s commitment to the idea of a referendum or Plebiscite led the United Nations Commission on India and Pakistan to adopt resolutions of August 13,1948 on Kashmir that envisaged plebiscite in J&K.Now these are the UN Resolutions on Kashmir. Wasn�t there any plebiscite ? No. Partly because both India and Pakistan had serious doubts on their chances. What is the Article 370 ? The Instrument of Accession limited the accession to defence, foreign affairs and communications. India�s Constituent Assembly inserted a special provision in the Indian Constitution, Article 306A,that allowed for such autonomy to J&K- even this was supposed to be �an interim system�. This is the pre-1953 status of J&K. Article 306A later on became Article 370 which didn�t CONFER any status on J&K but CONFIRMED the status which the State already enjoyed. If plebiscite didn�t happen, then�? Sheikh Abdullah was frustrated by the deadlock over Kashmir .This led Abdullah to form the Constituent Assembly of J&K in 1951 for which the National Conference won all 75 seats unopposed. THIS Constitue ly, the representative character of which has been questioned, ratified Kashmir�s accession to India and enshrined Article 306A as Article 370 of the Indian Constitution. This came to be known as the Delhi Agreement. Why then was Sheikh Abdullah arrested in 1953 ? Sheikh Abdullah was believed to be seriously thinking of an independent Kashmir. Though there was flimsy evidence ,Sheikh was arrested in 1953.Sheikh�s meetings with Adlai Stevenson and the US ambassador Loy Henderson had created enough suspicion. Bakshi Ghulam Muhammad who was installed in his place accused Sheikh Abdullah of trying to set up another Korea in Kashmir and argued for closer union to India. Sheikh Abdullah was detained under the Kashmir Conspiracy Case. And yes, why is Lal Chowk called so ? Lal Chowk is named after Red Square. There was a strong Kashmiri Left movement in `40s and `50s.The anti-feudal struggle in Kashmir was imbued with socialist ideals that led to radical Land Reforms in 1950. Why did India go back on its commitment on plebiscite ? This happened in 1954 when Pakistan joined an American military alliance and India announced that Kashmir�s accession to India is final and the elections to the Constituent Assembly should be considered surrogate for plebiscite. When Khruschev, the then General Secretary of the CPSU visited Kashmir, Kashmir was refered to as � one of the states of India�. But the incorporation of J&K was officially declared to be complete on 26 January 1957.Thus the 1949 Ceasefire line became the de facto border between India and Pakistan dividing Kashmir. So what did the Sheikh and his friends do ? Mirza Afzal Begh, a close confidante of Sheikh, formed the Plebiscite Front that campaigned for a plebiscite to settle the Kashmir problem. What about Bakshi Ghulam Muhammad ? Bakshi Ghulam Muhammad was Shiekh Abdullah�s lieutenant until 1953. Bakshi, G M Sadiq and Begh were Sheikh Abdullah�s closest associates and leaders of the National Conference. Bakshi deposed Sheikh for maneuv Kashmir and succeeded in passing a resolution in the J&K Constituent Assembly that declared Kashmir to be an integral part of India. Bakshi gave an effective but corrupt administration. Weren�t there any elections in Kashmir ? In 1957 Bakshi�s party won the elections,43 of the seats unopposed .Again in 1972,Bakshi�s party won 70 seats. Both the elections were widely believed to be rigged. The only reasonably fair elections in Kashmir were held in 1977 in which Sheikh Abdullah won a landslide victory. In 1967,the Congress party won the elections by getting 118 nomination papers cancelled. In 1964,the Constitution of J&K was amended-the Prime Minister of J&K was now to be the Chief Minister and the President was replaced by a Governor to be appointed by the Centre. The Sadiq faction of the National Conference became the local Congress. And the Plebiscite Front ? Many leaders of the Kashmiri secessionism became associated with politics when Sheikh Abdullah was sent to prison in 1953. Wasn�t there any popular protest by Kashmiris ? Of course. All this was to later explode in an angry outburst that had a discernible anti-India tenor in 1963 over the theft of the hair of Prophet Muhammad from the Hazratbal mosque at Srinagar . This came to be known as the Moe-Muqaddas agitation. It galvanized Kashmiri masses into political agitation. Finally Sheikh Abdullah was released. The Moe-Muqaddas agitation was interpreted by Pakistan as pro-Pakistan sentiment and encouraged them to attack Kashmir in 1965. Why was Sheikh Abdullah released ? Nehru urged Sheikh to travel to Pakistan to push for a lasting solution to the Kashmir problem. It was believed that Nehru wanted Abdullah to suggest a confederation between India, Pakistan and Kashmir. Did Sheikh Abdullah travel to Pakistan ? Sheikh Abdullah and Mirza Afzal Begh traveled to Pakistan on 24 May,1964. But the Sheikh�s deliberations in Pakistan were hastily aborted by Nehru�s demise on May 27, 1964. And then? Jayaprakash Narain, the res er visited Pakistan. Lal Bahadur Shastri and Ayub Khan met in Karachi yet there was no end to the stalemate over Kashmir. Any other protests in Kashmir ? Kashmir was relatively calm but the extension of Article 356 and 357 that gave the Union government of India powers to impose President�s rule in J&K sparked off protests. And Sheikh Abdullah? Abdullah traveled to London and Algiers. Abdullah�s meeting with the Chinese Prime Minister Chou En Lai angered New Delhi. Abdullah�s passport was cancelled by India. Sheikh rejected the offer of a Pakistani passport only to be arrested on his return .The Valley burst out in protest as the Lion of Kashmir was incarcerated in Kodaikanal , Tamil Nadu. What about the 1965 War between India and Pakistan on Kashmir ? Or the Operation Gibraltar. Between June and August 1965 there was Pakistani infiltration in Kashmir. It was believed by Pakistan that Kashmiris will join the infiltrators and Pakistan Army will intervene to free Kashmir. However, Kashmiris didn�t side with the infiltrators. A full-fledged India-Pakistan war broke out in 1965. And what happened? A Ceasefire was announced on 13 September ,1965 to end a war which was never formally declared. Both India and Pakistan were frustrated by Western intervention and Soviet Union moved to help India and Pakistan reach an agreement. Ayub and Shastri met in Tashkent. �The Tashkent Declaration� of 10 January,1966 underplays Kashmir. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, the then Foreign Minister of Pakistan, saw it as a sellout on Kashmir and was forced to resign. The Plebiscite Front-what about them? The Plebiscite Front decided to contest the local elections in 1969 and was all set to participate in the State elections.It was then that Plebiscite Front was banned by India in 1971. Isn�t 1971 the year of yet another Indo-Pak war? The war is preceded by the Ganga Hijacking. An Indian Airlines plane called Ganga is hijacked to Lahore by two Kashmiris. Before India responds to the hijackers' demands the passen are set free by the hijackers and the plane is set on fire. The Ganga hijacking is mired in controversy. All these events renew hostility between India and Pakistan while accusations and counteraccusations are hurled. And then we witnessed another Indo-Pak war �Though the war wasn�t fought on Kashmir, did it have any effect on the Kashmir problem? It demoralized the Kashmiri leadership as they thought that after its triumph in the war India won�t relent to a compromise on Kashmir. What is the Simla Agreement? Simla Agreement is the agreement between the then Pakistani Prime Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto and the then Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, signed on 2nd July 1972 which formally ended the 1971 war. It envisages a peaceful relationship between the two countries which is sought to be governed by the principal of bilateralism .The Simla Agreement has been brought into play by India to rule out any third party intervention on Kashmir as well as to soft-pedal the Kashmir issue even as Pakistan takes it to mean that Kashmir can be settled through bilateral negotiations. How did the Kashmiri leadership react to these developments ? They reacted with their own �compromise� on Kashmir. Sheikh signed an accord on November 13, 1974 with Indira Gandhi which came to be known as the Beg- Parthasarthy Accord or the Kashmir Accord of 1975.Sheikh Abdullah became Chief Minister but at the cost of huge and unpopular concessions to the Centre. And then Sheikh Abdullah remained Chief Minister? Until Sheikh died in 1982.Farooq Abdullah, Sheikh�s son, took over. Farooq�s National Conference swept the polls in 1984. Why then was Farooq Abdullah dismissed in 1984 ? Farooq Abdullah was �punished� by Indira Gandhi. Farooq had organized a conclave of Opposition parties in Srinagar which angered Mrs.Gandhi enough to engineer the split in National Conference that brought Farooq�s brother-in-law G M Shah as Chief Minister. Farooq�s dismissal is mired in controversy. Ironically this was the first t olitics had attempted to connect itself to India�s national politics. How long did G M Shah stay as Chief Minister? G M Shah�s rule was quite unpopular �the State government resorted to curfews to quell opposition. Jagmohan , the then governor of J&K, took over from Shah as Governor�s rule was imposed in J&K. And Farooq Abdullah? Farooq Abdullah was elbowed into an alliance by the Congress(I) government at the Centre. National Conference-Congress(I) alliance faced Muslim United Front-the Muslim Opposition that also comprised the secessionists in an election in 1987. The keenly contested election ended in widespread rigging to bring back Farooq into power. For Kashmiris the NC- Congress(I) alliance gave the impression of a sellout and revived memories of 1975 Kashmir Accord which had �defanged� the Lion of Kashmir,Sheikh Abdullah. National Conference brutally suppressed the secessionists .The �unholy alliance� and the State repression built the legitimacy for the armed rebellion. Many in the Opposition felt betrayed by India. Like who? Like Syed Salahudin, the Supreme Commander of the Hizbul Mujahideen, who �lost� the Amirakadal Constituency in Srinagar to National Conference in the 1987 State Assembly elections. Many of the militant leaders of the 1990s had participated in the 1987 election campaign of the Muslim United Front. So that brings us close to the Kashmir Uprising in early 1990? It formally begins with the JKLF�s sporadic acts of violence in 1988 and 1989.1990 becomes the year of the Kashmiri Uprising against the Indian State. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: THESSALONIKI FILM FESTIVAL Will the last person to leave the country please turn out all the lights... Fatmir Ko�s Tirana Year Zero (2001) Andrew James Horton The quip about the last person leaving the country turning the lights off may be ancient, but the problem of emigration seems more relevant than ever in the world. And no less so in Albania, whose economic plight�the legacy of isolation, the collapsed pyramid schemes, the looting of arms depots, the weight of hosting a refugee crisis during NATO's Kosovo campaign�led to around a million people emigrating from a country of just four million in order to seek their fortunes elsewhere. It would be hard, then, for an Albanian film set in the present to avoid the topic of emigration and how the country's inhabitants view the opulence of cities such as Paris, Milan and New York. Fatmir Ko�s Tirana Year Zero (2001), which earlier this month won the main prize in the international competition at the 42nd Thessaloniki film festival, goes further than that and has these subjects at its core, and the director describes the film as "a call to the Albanian people not to abandon their native land." Love amidst the chaos The action starts in Tirana in 1997, just after the infamous collapse of the pyramid scheme. Niku is a 23-year-old without much purpose in life. He scrapes together an income doing odd jobs with a decrepit truck, which he has a strange attachment to, as it was given to him by his father. Despite the repeated nagging of his parents, he doesn't seem to have any real drive to find a steady job. His girlfriend, Klara, is rather different and only sees a viable future outside Albania. This point of view perplexes Niku, who has lived in Italy for a short while but returned, disillusioned with life abroad. Climate of paranoia: the ever-present gun casts a shadow over society Klara, though, finds an opportunity to leave for Paris with a sculptor, thus giving hope to her rather naive dreams of becoming a model. K erscored by one of Niku's neighbours whose daughter sends him back a television bought with money she has earned from prostitution. Klara's departure troubles Niku, and he takes his truck on a aimless tour, meeting a variety of odd characters, including a neo-hippy from Berlin (played by arch-arthouse actor Lars Rudolph, who has recently played in films by Tom Tykwer and B� Tarr) and a French journalist who's been robbed of everything except her camcorder. The Albania he explores is corrupt, chaotic, violent and self-contradictory, but despite everything (even losing his beloved truck) he can still see no reason to leave. A black mark on Albania's good name? For a film which has such a clearly stated and apparently propagandistic agenda, Tirana Year Zero is a remarkably impartial and non-programmatic film. Ko�does very little to present his protagonist with a reason for staying, and the film is nothing but brutally frank about the state of Albania today. As Ko�explained at a press conference in Thessaloniki, the inspiration came for the project came when he asked various people he knew why they professed a desire to leave for the West. None of them could give a concrete answer why they wanted to be in another country. Tirana Year Zero gets its potency from the fact it presents plenty of reasons for leaving Albania, but none for actually arriving anywhere else. The legacy of the past imposing on the present The film, however, caused something of a scandal when it premiered in Albania (on 26 October), and he was widely accused by the media of blackening the country's name. As Ko�told a press conference at Thessaloniki: "it was shocking for most people, they didn't want to accept it." Ko�also insisted that his view of the country was accurate, saying that "I didn't invent anything�I found it," before elaborating that all the incidents portrayed in the film were based on true stories, either ones he had witnessed, that friends had told him or he had read about in newspapers. Lead actor N u, as he is in his real life a shoe salesman (making him one of many non-professionals in the film) who once lived in Italy. The fact that young people responded to the Tirana Year Zero very well during its two-week run in Tirana suggests more that Ko�s observational eye is not at fault and that some sections of Albanian society simply don't want to look at themselves in the mirror. For all the negativity in Tirana Year Zero, Ko�remains a man clearly in love with his country. The cinematography (by Austrian Heinzi Brander) places stunning, sun-drenched mountains behind the decaying tower blocks, and, even when referring to the country's darkest moments, Ko�talks about "a pleasant chaos" and emphasises that "life is very funny, it's really funny"�an attitude clearly visible in the film. He also insists that during the last few years things have got much better and that a lot of those who left are now returning. He even speaks glowingly of the country's role as a bridge between East and West, and�using those buzzwords of modern Western liberalism�as a multi-cultural and multi-denominational country with a rich cultural heritage. A symbol of our times Tirana Year Zero is not just a film for Albanians, though, as its selection to play in competition at Venice this August and its main prize from Thessaloniki testify. The film will also be released in France in December this year. Hints at reasons for the film's popularity can be gained from a press conference held by the international jury at Thessaloniki before the results were announced (and, indeed, before they had seen all the competition films). Following on from comments by jury member Pawel Pawlikowski�currently enjoying international fame due to his own film tale of someone seeking a better life abroad, The Last Resort (2001)�regarding the dominance of immigration as a theme at this year's festival, fellow jury member Eduardo Antin pointed out that four of the jury's seven members lived in a country they were not born in. Yannis Kokkos went to say that besides people being brave enough to live abroad, there are those that lose their bearings even in their own country. In this cultural context, it is hardly surprising that the jury warmed so much to Ko�s film and its exploration of feelings towards ones homeland against the lure of a richer life abroad. The irony, of course, is that it is Albania's seemingly eternal state of marginalisation, lack of self-confidence and insignificance on the global stage that makes it such a potent and universal symbol of our nervous and insecure times and have attracted our attention to it. Perhaps it is not surprising that Tirana Year Zero is just one of two Albanian films to have attracted the acclaim of festival selection committees and juries this year, the other being Gjergj Xhuvani's Slogans Albania: Atypical and yet also typical? (2001), which showed as part of the Director's Fortnight at Cannes this year and won the main prize at FilmFestival Cottbus. For a country that only produces a handful of films a year, this is an incredible success rate for 2001. All eyes are, therefore, on the Albanian film industry to see if it can continue with this success. Ko�is certainly ready for the challenge: he is currently working on a documentary on the history of 20th-century Albania and is about to start on a screen adaptation of Chronicle of the Stone City by Ismail Kadare, Albania's most famous author. Film buffs everywhere will be watching to see if the resulting anti-war comedy will capture the spirit of our age as successfully as Tirana Year Zero seems to have done. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Kurdish guerrillas in Northern Iraq at the end of the Gulf War, Dr. Jonathan Kaplan has saved (and lost) lives in the remotest corners of the world under the most extreme conditions. Now he delivers The Dressing Station, a brilliant and often harrowing narrative that reveals the crucial work of field doctors all over the world, and the devastating realities of the zones of conflict in which they operate. Dr. Jonathan Kaplan has been a hospital surgeon, a ship's physician, an air-ambulance doctor, and a trauma surgeon. He has worked in locations as diverse as England, Burma, Eritrea, the Amazon, Mozambique, and the United States. He has operated on wounded straight off the battlefield, treated obscure tropical disease, and helped victims of corporate stress and industrial poisoning. Whether running medical research programs in high-tech laboratories or caring for children wasted by famine and war, he has seen his skills used and sometimes abused. A pivotal lesson early in his career was the experience of a friend and medical colleague who had been required to save the life of a prisoner so that he could be subjected to torture. It anticipated the doctor's greatest challenge -- to maintain his humanity even when that option does not seem possible. Dr. Jonathan Kaplan's life in medicine has been one of unforgettable adventure and tragedy. The Dressing Station provides a haunting insight into the nature of human violence, the shattering contradictions of war, and the complicated role of medicine in the modern world. "An enthralling look into the craft of a surgeon." -- Jennifer Crocker, The Cape Times (Capetown, South Africa) ------------- The Dressing Station: A Surgeon's Odyssey http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/biography/0,6121,563963,00.html If there's a sure-fire vision of hell on earth, it can be found in an underequipped and understaffed hospital in Africa or elsewhere in the developing world just after a massacre or an epidemic. Most journalists and television crews spend as little time as they can in such places, collecting the facts and pictures they need before retreating from the stench and the misery. It's hard to forget the clinic in Zambia that was so overwhelmed with those dying of Aids that almost all the patients were crammed on the floor, with their relatives fighting over the beds whenever a death allowed one to become vacant. Jonathan Kaplan has worked in such clinics across the world, but he was able to provide help. As well as a journalist he is a trained surgeon, and has used his skills to take him to both war zones and tourists' haunts. He has had an odd, varied and colourful life, and this is an odd, varied and colourful autobiography. It is a bloody wartime travelogue, a layman's guide to surgery (not for the squeamish), and an analysis and description of a wide range of different medical lifestyles. It's also a potted history of the politics of the different countries and conflicts he has visited, and a vehicle both for his best after-dinner medical stories and for his often angry thoughts and fears on medicine, morality and mortality. It's not easy to keep the right balance between so many disparate elements and styles, but - for the first quarter of the book at least - Kaplan manages astonishingly well. Stories of a white boy growing up and studying in apartheid-era South Africa are combined with vivid and compelling first-hand reports of anti-apartheid demonstrations and the police brutality used to counter them. There are graphic, detailed descriptions of the resulting injuries that he was called on to treat. Working as a doctor in the townships gave him a close-up view of the workings and realities of apartheid and the moral dilemmas confronted by doctors asked to patch up the "victims of preventable suffering". Kaplan's solution was to flee to England, rather than be called up for national service in South Africa's increasingly bloody border campaigns. He became an exile and a wanderer, with a detached, bemused and often horrified view of what he found. He observed the intricate politics of the British medical establishment and the decline of the NHS in the Thatcher era; his analysis is balanced against a wince-making explanation of how to carry out a vasectomy, or a poignant and painfully honest confession of the mistakes he made that led to a patient's death. Moving to the US, he casts an equally cool and critical eye over the workings of commercial medicine, the deals that are made between medical research and big business, and the practice of slaughtering pigs so that first-year students can gain a little surgical experience. Subsequently he moves to a war zone, operating on wounded Kurdish fighters in northern Iraq in the period between the ending of the Gulf war and the establishment of "safe havens". His descriptions of life under fire in a squalid makeshift field hospital are among the best passages in the book. So far, very good indeed. But Kaplan keeps on travelling, and his life and writing both begin to drift. There's a mildly amusing but over-long section dealing with his time as a ship's doctor on a cruise liner in the South China Seas, where he treated typhoid, alcoholic passengers and crew members with VD. There's his experience working with an unhappy film crew in Mozambique, his more interesting adventures with the opium warlords in Burma, and - for yet more contrast - a stint accompanying sick passengers around the world for a travel-insurance concern. He takes on an assignment to research mercury-poisoning cases in South Africa for the late, lamented World In Action . At this point, Kaplan seems to have become more interested in investigative journalism than surgery. The final section, dealing with Kaplan's unexpected return to the front line in the war between Eritrea and Ethiopia, at last re-captures the immediacy, originality and sense of horror in the opening chapters. His conclusion from all this is: "It was among the world's wounded that I had found the essence of humanity, without disguise; an exile, I had found a home in the suffering of bodies." To which one could unkindly ask why he then moved on, yet again, to treat the mental problems of the rich overachievers of London. After all that travelling and all those stories, it seems that the moral dilemmas Kaplan faced as a young doctor have never been fully resolved. ------------- Without frontiers http://www.mg.co.za/mg/art/music/menu-music.htm South African surgeon Jonathan Kaplan�s experiences around the world have added up to a fascinating book. Jane Rosenthal met him in Cape Town onathan Kaplan, travelling surgeon, journalist, film-maker � and now author of The Dressing Station (Picador) � is disarmingly uncertain as to whether he has done anything useful with his life. And meeting him is quite a surprise. He is slight, younger looking than his 47 years, has a lot of floppy dark hair and doesn�t look like someone who�d cope with battlefield surgery or similar crises. I�d gone to the interview thinking, �This guy is just too cool to be true.� Prepared to be unimpressed, I was won over by his simplicity and his seriousness. The Dressing Station is fascinating yet disturbing reading. Fascinating because Kaplan has a real gift for describing medical detail in a clear and comprehensible way � enlightening for those of us unlikely ever to wield a scalpel � and disturbing because it ruffles that complacent ignorance in which we continue our lives while there is so much suffering, bloodletting and conflict on the planet. And as to why anyone would go off to where it�s all happening if they didn�t have to � well, the answer is not really provided in this book. Kaplan is as reticent about his own personal life as he is discreet about the privacy of his patients. He begins his book thus: �I grew up with the expectation that I would serve.� Yet he gives the impression that he feels he has led a privileged and indulgent life, in the sense that he has been able to use medicine as a way to see the world. He has even, he says, made choices out of whim or to escape a personal situation. Friends and colleagues are now ensconced in the medical hierarchies of Western medicine; he says they are �financially secure to a staggering degree�, and have �chosen wisely�. He denies emphatically that he means this ironically � �These are friends of mine� � but adds that he has better dinner-party stories. And so he should have. After training at the University of Cape Town, in London and in New York, his work in the past 10 years has taken him to Kurdistan (in the early Nineties), Mozambique refugee camps, and last year, Eritrea, among others. As a film-maker he has investigated mercury pollution in Brazil and South Africa. At times he has worked as a ship�s doctor and an aeromedical physician. To all of this he has brought not only his knowledge and skill, but also considerable thoughtfulness. His training in London, he recalls in the book at it nears an end, �had been a constant process of eroding certainties. First to go had been security: life was tremblingly insecure; death, easy and close.� Love and repose had also, at that stage, eluded him Asked whether he had ever regained these, he says, �I think I have gained a certain equanimity through accumulated experience. I�ll try and do the best I can in situations, [but] the broader view is that I won�t always be successful and that I cannot excoriate myself for the places where I have failed.� He also shows the reader the inside of situations we see glossed over on TV news. His take on aid organisations and interventionists such as M�cins sans Fronti�s is lucid and disillusioning. In Mozambique, for example, he speaks of a �plague of altruism� in which the main beneficiaries are often the aid organisations rather than the refugees and deslocados. And he�s aware that he himself is part of the questionable intervention when he goes into these situations. He confesses that he enjoys the �exhilaration, the free-fall rush into unpredictability�, and that he would find it difficult to go back into the routine of ordinary hospital work. The book was originally commissioned by a publisher who knew Kaplan had done some writing and journalism, and had heard some of his stories from a third party. Writing the book was quite gruelling in parts � he had to go back to journals he had kept while out in the field. He had written them purely for himself, �as a means of recording intense experiences and as a way of encapsulating all the frustrations, anger, often fear, that I felt,� forcing him to re-live things �that I hadn�t any memory of experiencing and had quite clearly suppressed.� At the very end of the interview, he produced the journal that he�d kept while in Eritrea: a modest A5, but closely written and interspersed with watercolour sketches and other memorabilia, in itself an extraordinary artefact. This daily record-keeping has surely contributed to the elegance of the writing and sense of reality in this examination of suffering and how we deal with it on the broader battlefield of life. He concludes his account with a chapter on occupational health in which he makes it clear that not even the wealthy and corporately powerful are exempt. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Dawn, 24/12/01 By Khalid Hasan Alexander Evans, a young English academic who has been working on Kashmir for several years and could well be one of the best-informed men in the West on the subject, wrote after September 11 that militant groups in Kashmir would come under sharp pressure in the coming months to cull their ranks of Osama bin Laden supporters. That seems already to be happening. He wondered what direction the uprising that began in 1989 would now take. Noting that it was and had remained "exclusively Muslim", Evans argued that while it was a Muslim revolt against Indian rule, it was not necessarily an "Islamic" revolt when it began. In my view, the "Islamization" of the movement, when it came, was a mistake as it guaranteed that the support available to the long Kashmiri struggle for self-determination in many parts of the world would be lost. After some heady successes which saw the Indian military force humbled, the control of the movement increasingly shifted to those who had agendas that went beyond Kashmir. They saw Kashmir as part of a larger crusade against a large assemblage of enemies, among them, the nebulous entity called 'The West' and the "infidel" forces of "disbelief" dedicated to the destruction of Islam. Thus the movement in Kashmir took a course different from the one the peaceful marchers to the UN office in Srinagar who had been fired upon in 1989 had intended. India took full advantage of this, arguing that what it was facing in Kashmir was not a popular, indigenous uprising but a fundamentalist, terrorist-inspired insurrection. This plea fell on many sympathetic ears in western capitals. It even received a positive hearing from many Muslim governments who had their own reasons to fear the onset of "jihad". For instance, Osama bin Laden's principal target was his own country's government and the ruling house of Saud. Though he broadened his agenda as time passed, the Saudi monarchy and its policies remained his main motivation for th Sudan, then Afghanistan. Coming back to Kashmir, in Evans's view, a "brutally effective Indian counter-insurgency with scant regard for human rights decimated the first generation of militants" with the "young romantics" making way for a more "professional group of fighters". The arrival of the "guest militants" on the scene modified the nature and objective of the Kashmiri struggle. Today, as the war in Afghanistan winds down and the destruction of the Taliban receives its lethal finishing touches, the focus will shift to Kashmir. The commitment of guest militants is ideological, not mercenary. But the ideology that fires them has the whole world arrayed against it now. Osama bin Laden and the Taliban have in that sense done the greatest disservice to both Islam and to the causes which sought inspiration from it. Prof. Anwar Syed, whose reaction I sought, said he found Evans's view "optimistic". Evans believes that an end to militancy in Kashmir will strengthen Pakistan's hand. "It would also, for once, empower Kashmiris, whose voice could not be dismissed as that of a small gun-ridden minority. India, instead of condemning the proxy war it sees in Kashmir, would have to grapple with the real underlying issue... And without militancy rendering Pakistan's pleas for international action on Kashmir suspect, there could be scope for renewed UN involvement in the Kashmir issue. If Pakistan was to end covert support for militancy, India would face intense US pressure to offer something by way of return." A few years ago, the admirable British academic Alistair Lamb who, Yusuf Buch once said, had "put every Kashmiri in his debt", called for a fresh look at Kashmir since the two sides were so bogged down in history and so convinced of the merit of their positions that they could have no meeting point. He argued that the "liberation" of Kashmir "really means doing something about the Vale", as the "bulk of the remaining Muslim-majority bits of the old state has in one way or another already been 'liberate "unitary plebiscite" as laid down in the UN resolutions which, people tend to forget, are advisory, not mandatory. Lamb wrote, "It is unlikely in the extreme ... that any unitary plebiscite can now be implemented in the state ... In this rather restricted sense, the United Nations resolutions of 1948 plus the UNCIP resolution of 1949 are indeed obsolete ... If they cannot be implemented through Indo-Pakistani cooperation, no one else is going to enforce them." ...According to Lamb, the Cease-fire Line will need to be extended to the Chinese border to end the Siachen conflict which will mean India accepting the 1963 Sino-Pakistan boundary agreement. Lamb wrote that if the Valley was to become autonomous with India and Pakistan guaranteeing its autonomy and sharing or dividing responsibility for defence, external relations etc., perhaps a mutually acceptable arrangement could be worked out. He said a settlement was possible if certain conditions were met. First, Indian and Pakistani leaders must genuinely wish to find a settlement. Pakistan, though "lacking the arrogant assertion of absolute right" like India, should realize that the demand for a "unitary plebiscite ... is hardly conducive to compromise", nor is there any "international enthusiasm" for such a course. Lamb suggested that Pakistan should drop its claim to the "clearly non-Muslim" areas of the state and India should accept the Pakistani position in the Northern Areas which would "reduce the dispute in territorial terms to Azad Kashmir and the Vale". No settlement should involve the direct transfer of sovereign territory from one side to the other, he stressed. That would leave Azad Kashmir and the Vale which might be declared "autonomous regions, each with its internal self-government but with defence and external relations in the hands of Pakistan in the case of Azad Kashmir and India in the case of the Vale" with both sides agreeing as to the degree of their military presence. The Indo-Pak agreement, he proposed, could be sup ented by an agreement between Azad Kashmir and the Vale defining a "special relationship". Local elections could be held to ratify the arrangement. He called it the "Andorra solution", that being the region between France and Spain which rests under the protection of both but is internally autonomous. Both India and Pakistan, Lamb wrote, "must be prepared to waive established concepts about the nature of the dispute ... and replace economic polemic with a basis of fact derived from a careful examination of what, as far as can be ascertained, actually happened ... They must be prepared to accept the legitimacy of the interest in the dispute of the other party, or parties, a process which is in practice rather more difficult than it at first might sound ... There must be informed debate. It is not necessary for everyone to agree with everyone else about every single point. It is essential, however, that all aspects of the problem be questioned and re-examined." That this advice comes from probably the best friend the Kashmiri people have in the West, we must remain mindful of. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: R Ministers plan criminal evidence shake-up Proposals in leaked Home Office papers include the disclosure of past convictions to juries Alan Travis, home affairs editor Guardian Thursday December 27, 2001 Major changes in the rules of evidence in criminal trials, including the use of hearsay evidence, bad character and witness statements, are to be unveiled by ministers as part of an overhaul of the courts and sentencing. Internal leaked Home Office papers also confirm a plan to introduce the disclosure of relevant past convictions to juries under its reform of the rules of criminal evidence in a white paper this April. "Legislating in this area is a clear priority for the Prime Minister. [Lord Justice] Auld recommends a general review of rules of evidence, based on the principle of trusting fact finders to give relevant evidence the weight it deserves," say the official papers. The papers say the review must be finished by February so that legislation can proceed in 2002/2003. Lord Justice Auld was responsible for the government's inquiry into the criminal courts system. The papers also reveal that Lord Justice Auld's proposal to set up a new youth court - with a judge and two magistrates - to try all grave cases against young defendants may prove "highly controversial". The civil servants say it will mean "the end of public jury trial for 16- to 17-year-olds". The papers also confirm that ministers plan to restrict a defendant's right to choose trial by judge and jury in some cases. The civil servants warn that plans to replace crown courts and magistrates courts with a new three-tiered unified criminal court will prove "highly controversial" because the new intermediate tier will mean defendants in more cases also losing the right to trial by judge and jury. Some estimates claim that the number of jury trials could fall by as much as 70%. Ministers will weigh up the proposals in February and March, with legislation to be introduced next autumn in a massive 400-clause bill. The shake-up had been postponed to make way for the new anti-terrorist measures. The civil servants warn that the reform of the rules of evidence may prove as controversial as the jury trial changes. In Labour's election manifesto the government said the rules of evidence failed to "trust the good sense of judges and jurors". The Whitehall papers admit that plans to make hearsay evidence generally admissible in court as well as witness statements "are likely to cause controversy and will need careful consideration." Other major court reforms, such as restricting jury trial, extending prosecution rights of appeal and reforming the double jeopardy law, are to be published in a draft bill in advance "because they are controversial and would benefit from pre-legislative scrutiny". Home Office civil servants have told ministers that such "advance drafting" of changes in the law on criminal evidence is "inadvisable for practical and tactical reasons." On allowing hearsay evidence to be generally admissible the government may go against the Law Commission's approach. The leaked papers make clear that Tony Blair, in a letter dated 24 September 2001, had indicated to ministers that he supported the different approach put forward by Lord Justice Auld which "would make hearsay generally admissible subject to the principle of best evidence." Home Office staff also admit that plans to reveal past convictions to juries are backed by Mr Blair who has indicated that juries should be told of a bad character where relevant. Harry Fletcher, assistant general secretary of the National Association of Probation Officers, said the reforms would change the face of criminal justice. "The huge loss of jury trials will lead to a higher rate of conviction and therefore more people in custody. Currently half of those put before a jury are acquitted compared with less than 10% before magistrates," he said. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: are bits of iron rods left over or cut from such iron rods as are sunk into the ground to make a bit of private property. (Call it what you will...let's call it Haeppie Villa!). These bits of iron rods arrive, usually in a cyclecart cycler huffing. The cycler stops and gets down in front of a solid iron gate built into what seems a complete wall of naked brick. The road into which the cyclecart has turned is a narrow one. In fact it is not so much a road as a lane. No, no. It is not a lane. It is an alley. Huge crude blocks of cement stretch into the distance. Walls of houses, naked-brick walls meet unconcertingly in the distance. One notices that these naked-brick houses are often huge mansions walled-up 15 wall rising feet in the air. One notices a maze of brickwork, constructions. Windows grilled-up, verandahs protruding blocking the light in the alley-way. One notices spots of lurid colour -- just a saree hanging -- and big wagon-like vehicles. The cycler, meanwhile, knocks on the iron gates, which open and swallow the cycler and the cart. Soon after, an empty cart careens out of the alleyway. Meanwhile, inside the iron gates the work has begun, which will produce much smoke and smell but about which nobody dares to complain. Inside, are being produced Billi Gates' talons. Iron rods melted and pared to a sharp point. Imagine the heat needed to do that. Imagine the smoke. If you can, imagine tuberculosis, Ye Olde Disease. Billi Gates' 1000 talons reach out into the night, protecting. Buttressing. Fortressing. Smugly Billi Gates sharpens his 1000 talons. None shall escape Billi Gates. Nobody can. Everything, now, is shut up. The gates have closed, so that a continuous fence comes up enclosing a bit of the city turning that bit into a closed fortress. Inside the fortress, houses breathe. Inside the houses, people breathe. (They also snore, but that's allowed.) It is night quite late. Street-lights shine indifferently through tree-leaves. You are walking through a half-light blanket mist in silence punctuated by the whirr of ACs and the glow of lamps. You reach Billi Gate. Biili Gate sniggers and refuses to open. You implore Billi Gates. You have to go home, you say. "Against procedure," Billi Gates says, frowning. "It is after 10 p m." After 10 pm nowadays, Delhi breaks up into bits. This megapolis becomes bits of fortresses. There was a time when "Delhi" signified the walled city. Today, Delhi has become the city of fence-ins after 10 p m. This city today is layer after layer of fence protecting after 10 pm. In the cultural history of this city, which remains to be exhaustively studied, fences began to come around colonies and city spaces precisely in the period in which exclusivity became once more much-sought-after cultural capital Exclusivity is a logic of difference and otherness. Painstakingly, Delhi has nurtured this logic. Difference and Otherness characterise Delhi's history in the last 15 years like never before. (But that's how Delhi always was, is it?) At night Delhi fractures. These gates get closed. These miles of Billi Gates. All over Delhi, spaces become fortresses. Why has the "fortressing" mentality so "colonised" Delhi? What does it mean to accept, in the name of civility, getting fortressed-in every night? Billi Gates smiles smugly closing sharpening talon waiting for hapless intruder. ________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a job? Visit Yahoo! India Careers Visit http://in.careers.yahoo.com From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Creativity optimises in the form of sign boards in the streets of Delhi. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: post, a small boy running at the crossing trying to throw in as many pamphlets as possible inside the speeding cars. Or the boys doing rounds of colonies each day with pamphelets or the innumerous junk mail anouncing the arrival of the post man. It could be the back side of a public bus or the tyre cover of two wheeler. It can also be the small neon posters inside the buses or the bathrooms of the theatres. It can be just anything. Had the safety of the citizens of Delhi not been in question the skyline of Delhi would by now have been redefined by hoardings advertising tyres, T.V. serials, food, shoes, clothes, electronics all in the air ready to be plucked. With the inception of the law on the hoardings came in the wave of the brightly lit hoardings on the bus stops. Suddenly the Delhi commuters had the comfort of a clean bus stand with sitting arrangements. by the night these same welcoming stands beckoned one even more by the brightly lit hoarding on the top. The company advertising had to maintain the stand. This is not the end of the story . Did one ever wonder where all the electricity came from. After all in a state where power cuts are a reality of every days life these brightly lit stands did generate some curiosity. Sure enough all was not well. It was only a matter of few steps from these stands that one had the not so nice answers. Big generators were found near the stands generating electricity and harmful gases. Not to worry the advertisers will not die in this state. The Municipal Committee of Delhi has yet again a brain wave. All the dustbins and the public unirels have been auctioned to differeent companies for maintainance. In return the companies are free to utilise the space available for campaigning thier messages. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------------------------------- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Kavita Singh School of Arts and Aesthetics JNU From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Bwo Russell Coker/ HippiesfromHell discussion list) ----- Forwarded message from Michael Moore ----- Subject: Police Raid Booksigning for Stupid White Men Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 16:27:03 -0500 Police Raid, Shut Down My Booksigning in San Diego Dear Friends, It's a few minutes before midnight, on Friday night on 3/8/2002. I'm in San Diego, and I have just escaped being arrested by the San Diego police. This book tour keeps getting more surreal, but the last hour has been unlike anything I have yet seen. I have come to San Diego to speak at an event organized for my book ("Stupid White Men"). The event is being held at a middle school in an auditorium that seats about 800 people. I have spent the week in California, pretty much at my own expense. Weeks ago, the publisher informed me that they would not be sending me to this state if they had to pay to get me there. So I called up my friends at "Politically Incorrect" and asked if they could book me on the show and bring me out there. They were more than happy to help out. I can't believe the crap this show has had to endure because its host one night, early on in "America's NEW War" had the guts to state the truth as he saw it. Now advertisers have dropped like flies, affiliates in DC, Columbus, and other cities have canceled the program, and ABC seems eager to deep-six the whole hour it shares with "Nightline." But, for now, they have come to my aid, and I am grateful. In the past six days, I have spoken to 15 separate mobs of people. I don't know what other word to use because, quite simply, wherever I go, there is this unbelievable pandemonium. Every day, every night, hundreds -- or thousands -- jam themselves into halls, arenas, churches, auditoriums to listen to me talk about my book and whatever else is struggling to make its way through my brain. Forget about standing room only -- these venues look more like breathing room only. A clever fire marshal could have made a small fortune tailing me across this state. As I look out at the crowds of humans doing their best to impersonate sardines, I worry not that some deranged person may shout "Fire!" but rather that someone may belt out, "There's an extra six inches over here by the radiator!" I have visited the most out-of-the-way places in California and, no matter where I go or how right-wing the congressman is that represents their district, all sorts of people are desperate to get inside to be with the thousands of others who want to be part of "United We Stand Against the Thief-in-Chief." Grass Valley, Hayward, San Francisco, Santa Rosa, Ukiah, Arcata, Berkeley, Westwood, East L.A., Koreatown (L.A.) -- I wish all of you could see what I have seen. In every town, at every stop, huge throngs of Americans who are sick and tired of the silence that has been demanded of them, lest they be thought of as "unpatriotic" should they dare to question the actions of George W. Bush and company. That's what this tour is all about. It's time to come out and start acting like Americans again. And then there was San Diego. Over a thousand people are packed inside the 800-seat auditorium. Outside, another thousand people are on the lawn trying to get in. The traffic on the street is tied up and the stream of San Diegoans keeps filing up the sidewalk. I tell the organizers that I am going to spend a half-hour outside here speaking to the people who cannot get in. They are, after all, like me -- slackers who are habitually late. The crowd outdoors is wired and jazzed that they are being honored for being tardy. Then I go inside, give my usual talk, and begin to sign books. There's a 90-year-old lady whose granddaughter has driven her down from Orange County. There's a union organizer from the antiunion San Diego Union-Tribune newspaper who announces that his grandfather was a sit-down striker with my uncle back in 1937 in Flint. Some punk-poet kid tries to finish me off for good by offering me two Krispy Kreme donuts. Hundreds line up to have their books, their "Awful Truth" DVDs and, in one case, an Iron Maiden jean jacket, signed. I am told that we are getting close to the time when we will have to leave the school, as it has only been rented until 11pm. That is not good. Hundreds are still in line. I don't think any of these signings this week have been over before midnight. Somewhere around 11:30pm, I hear a commotion at the back of the auditorium. I see people start to scatter. The San Diego police are coming down the aisle, their large flashlights out (the auditorium lights are still on, so we all understand the implied "other" use of these instruments). The police are telling everyone to "VACATE THESE PREMISES IMMEDIATELY OR YOU WILL ALL BE ARRESTED!" I cannot believe what I am hearing. "YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE ANOTHER WARNING. LEAVE NOW -- OR FACE ARREST!" The cops approach the stage where I am signing the books. People are visibly frightened -- and about half the book-line bolts toward the doors. I stand up and speak to the officers. "I am the author of this book," I tell them politely. "These people are only here to get a book and all I am doing is signing them. We will be done shortly." "I don't care who you are," they reply. "We have received a call from the school district and we have been told to remove you. You were supposed to be out of here at 11:00pm." We had apparently violated our curfew. "C'mon guys, you can't be serious," I said. "Are you saying that you are going to arrest me for signing people's books, and arrest the people who are here because they want to read this book?" "I don't care what you are doing -- this is your last warning. I am ready to arrest you and everyone else." "Who is your superior?" I ask. "I'm it. Only the Chief is above me at night, and I am not going to wake him up. This has already gone through many channels. We are here because this has already gone through many people in the last half-hour, people in authority, and the decision has been made to clear you out of here or arrest you." I have never been arrested, strange as that may seem. I could not believe that, of all I have done, all I have stood for over the years, that it has come down to this -- and I was about to be hauled away for autographing books! "OK," I said. "We'll leave." I then mumbled something about the last time I checked, this was still the United States of America -- even if we were just five miles away from where it ends. They escorted me and the few remaining souls out of the building. The brave lady who was the owner of the independent bookstore and who was there selling my book, leaned over and whispered to me, "I am willing to go to jail for this if you want me to." Ya gotta hand it to the independent bookstores -- they've been through hell lately, so much so that they are now ready to be led away in handcuffs! I walked outside and about 40 people ask me if I would still sign their books in the dark of the parking lot. A girl gets out her pocket flashlight. A guy runs over and turns on his headlights. I remark that it feels like we're in some sort of banana republic or East Berlin, secretly meeting so we can have our little book gathering. "Sign quick, Mike, here come the police!" I finish the last book and hop in my sister's car. She remembers to give me a plaque that had been presented to me in abstentia (while I was outside talking to the people who couldn't get in). It was from the city councilwoman from the area of San Diego we were in. It read "Official Proclamation: City of San Diego Declares -- March 9, 2002, 'Michael Moore Day.'" "Maybe we should have shown this to the cops, " she says. We drive to her house where I catch four hours sleep before I get up and head for Denver. Yours, Michael Moore Author Filmmaker NonEvildoer mmflint at aol.com StupidWhiteMen at aol.com www.michaelmoore.com PS. I have heard from so many of you about how hard it is to find my book in the bookstores. It's true -- the book does not exist in most stores. Yet it is #1 in most cities across the country on the bestseller lists. I don't get it. HarperCollins has been very slow to print books and get them out there. Why this is, I do not know. No doubt they have been caught by surprise with the overwhelming response to the book. You can't really blame them -- they thought the "president" had an 80% approval rating. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Militants are buried in Srinagar's many martyrs' cemeteries, some of them large adjuncts to regular graveyards, others crammed into small corners across the city. They are crowded with almost identical concrete gravestones, covered in Arabic inscriptions in green lettering. A few bear English place names�"Birmingham" was one I noted�an indication of Kashmir's appeal to disaffected Western-born Muslims looking for a cause. But exactly what that cause was, beyond the single word azad, was unclear. As I looked at the gravestones in one of the smaller cemeteries near Dal Gate one day, a group of boys gathered around me and laboriously translated the inscriptions. They were eager to show me significant graves�Islamic warriors from faraway countries, or men whose spectacular deaths had stuck in their memories. They pointed out professionals�lawyers, teachers, doctors�and men who had died under torture. They called all the dead "martyrs," but they couldn't always tell me what they had died for�whether they were martyrs to Kashmiri independence, or to the union with Pakistan, or simply to Islam. One grave that was pointed out to me belonged to Aafaq Ahmed Shah, who, at the age of eighteen, had become briefly famous for inaugurating a new phase of the militant group Jaish-e-Mohammed's war, that of the suicide bomber. I had earlier visited his family in the old city. His mother had opened the door and stood on the doorstep looking at me. She was a small, middle-aged woman with dar , and she knew, before I explained, what I had come for. She remained immobile, tears flowing down her face, reluctant, it seemed, either to turn me away or to admit me to what she knew would be a painful rehearsal of her grief. Still sobbing, she let me in, and I sat on the floor of a freezing room, waiting for her husband to return from the market. Mohammed Yusuf Shah was a thin, elderly man, a retired college teacher, dressed in a brown pheran. He settled beside me as his wife brought blankets and fire baskets and poured us cups of chai from a thermos flask. "My son was nearly nineteen years old," Mohammed said. "He wanted to be a doctor. There's a photograph of him"�he waved his hand vaguely�"somewhere, wearing a stethoscope." He made no move to get it, as though already discouraged by the effort. His wife had begun to cry again. "Mysterious are the ways of God," he said. There had been no warning that his son would join the militants. "He willed it. He did it. That is all. He was a good, silent, obedient boy. He was my son, but, more than that, he was my friend. He was here, dawn to dusk, every day, day and night." On March 25, 2000, the boy disappeared. The family searched for him, fruitlessly. Three days later, he telephoned. "Father, I left," he said, and hung up. On April 19th, dressed in an Army uniform and carrying an Army I.D., Aafaq tried to ram his car through a heavily fortified gate of the Army's XV Corps headquarters, near his home. The car exploded after a soldier started firing at it. Five soldiers were injured; only one person was killed�Aafaq, who was blown to pieces. The family read of his death in the newspapers. I found another family of a young martyr in a village some thirty miles outside Srinagar. We drove along long straight roads lined with tall poplars, past fields of saffron that were just showing a first flush of green shoots, past empty paddy fields, waiting to be planted. The village itself was along a muddy track, buried among trees, peaceful in the chilly morning. "Ignora evil" was carefully painted on the wall of the village school. I sat on the floor of the family's small living room as villagers crowded in, competing to tell the story of Nazir Ahmed Khan. "Nazir was in the tenth class," a young neighbor told me, and also wanted to be a doctor. "His hobbies were gardening, photography, and cricket." Nazir's elder brother, Mohadin, drove a taxi to support the family. There was a skirmish in a nearby village, and the Army appeared at the door, convinced that Mohadin had driven a wounded terrorist to the hospital. Mohadin was not at home, but Nazir and his father were. They were interrogated, but the soldiers were not satisfied, and the father and son were both beaten, and then their limbs were held over a fire. Afterward, Nazir ran away. "He could not bear being tortured for no reason," the neighbor said. He had gone to join the militants. Mohadin was summoned to the Army barracks, and he, too, was tortured and then imprisoned. The family sold the taxi to bribe the Army for his release; it was their only asset. And then Nazir was killed. I went to see where he had died. We drove back to the main road, past a sign that read, "Our job is to make everybody see the beauty of Kashmir," then turned down a muddy track to the village. We inched along the narrow streets until a villager pointed to the house: the roof at one end had collapsed, and its supporting wall was a pile of rubble. I scrambled up the slippery lane and pushed open the ramshackle corrugated-iron gate. A small crowd followed me in. The boy had joined two other militants, and the three of them, the villagers told me, were hiding in this house. An informer told the Army. The cordon search lasted for three days and three nights, and the entire village was made to squat in the cold on the recreation ground. Fire baskets and the old men's woollen hats were confiscated. Ten thousand soldiers came, I was told. I said that ten thousand soldiers is a very large number. The villagers insisted. Cornered, the militants gave f them fired on the soldiers from an upper room�and the Army ordered seven villagers to walk up to the house and put two explosive devices inside. Everyone knew that the villagers wouldn't be harmed. It was, they said, a frequently used tactic. "The militants don't fire on civilians," a villager explained. "If you refuse to do it, the Army shoots you." The villagers got out before the devices were detonated. Nazir was eighteen, and had been a militant for a week. Later this year, there will be elections in Kashmir�the opportunity, in principle, for the people to express their political will. But, after years of vote rigging and intermittent direct rule, Kashmiris have lost their faith in India's secular democracy. For the politicians in the loose coalition of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, there is no point in even standing. To do so would require their swearing an oath of allegiance to the Indian state, which they do not wish to honor. And, at the very least, they want an autonomy that they believe India's current government�dominated by the Bharatiya Janata Party, an organization with an aggressively pro-Hindu ideology�will never grant. On February 12th, the Hurriyat announced that it would boycott the Indian elections and hold an election of its own�to choose representatives who will sit at a negotiating table with India and Pakistan. But India is not going to give up Kashmir, and the negotiations have no hope of succeeding. President Musharraf, too, has called for negotiations, and on February 6th the U.N. Secretary-General, Kofi Annan, offered to mediate. For Musharraf, negotiations could be the key to his survival. He has declared his wish to make Pakistan a more secular state, attempting to dismantle the networks of Islamic extremists who, for the past twenty years, have systematically infiltrated Pakistan's government, Army, and, especially, its intelligence services, the I.S.I. These people are viscerally opposed to Musharraf's ambition. If he is to succeed�if, at the very least, he is to put a t for cross-border Islamic terror�he needs to show that the cause of the indigenous Kashmiri struggle has not been abandoned. India, meanwhile, has not taken up the offers for negotiations. In Kashmir, an end to the struggle seems ever more remote. Nazir, like Aafaq, had joined the ranks of the martyrs in a war that has lost its way, a war that now feeds on itself�each act of violence generating a new response that generates more recruits. For some of the valley's young men, it can seem as though there were little else to do�the war is their occupation. The Kashmiriyat is now a forlorn memory, and has been replaced by the cult of the gun. The people of the valley believe they are trapped in a war without end, in which anyone can become a victim. Tens of thousands have died. Scarcely a family in the valley is untouched. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: al surveillance and electronic space in which our most intimate thoughts can= be charted. In this world, what few protections were afforded those who sta= nd in opposition to the status quo are lost, snatched back by systems of pol= icing -- local, national and global -- bent on breaking all but the tamest f= orms of resistance.

Such attacks on liberty are, needless to say, not new. Entire systems of ec= onomic and political domination have been built upon policing at once extrao= rdinarily violent and intrusive. Among these, one might cite the very system= on which the country we live in was founded. From the arrival of the first = slave ship at Jamestown Harbor in 1619 to the contemporary streets of our la= rgest cities, from the era of Jim Crow lynchings to the beating of Rodney Ki= ng and the killing of Amadou Diallo, the United States has been a place of v= iolence meted out at the hands of a few bent on controlling and silencing th= e many.  

Once, men and women of African descent, in this land, were deemed 3/5th of = a human being; today, so many men of African heritage -- one in every ten= -- are behind bars or otherwise ensnared in the criminal justice jugger= naut**  that one can legitimately speak of a genocide under way. In Atl= anta, Detroit, Los Angeles, women and men of Native American, Latino and, in= creasingly, Asian heritage are questioned, arrested, incarcerated at rates i= n no way commensurate with their representation in the population at large. = Post 9/11, over a thousand Arab men are in US jails, still waiting to be cha= rged with a crime; in many cases, their own families have not been told wher= e they are.

Elsewhere too, state violence has broken and continues to break lives, spir= its, entire peoples. Violent repression was the cornerstone of the colonial = project, in Africa and Asia alike.  Patrice Lumumba of Congo, murdered = by Belgian-trained gunmen mere months after his country gained independence;= Ruben Um Nyobe, heartbeat of Cameroon’s struggle for self-determinati= on, killed in a French ambush in 1958;  Steve Biko, beaten to death by = South African police in 1977... Theirs are but the best known names -- a pal= try few “history” deigns to recall among those of hundreds upon = hundreds of thousands who died, many resisting, killed by authorities in pow= er only because they had the means to destroy.

In Europe, as the industrial age emerged, workers died by the thousands. In= Napoleonic Paris, boulevards were cut through the city in wide swaths to ma= ke the task of shooting discontented factory hands easier, should they take = to the streets en masse. As the 19th century drew to a close, in the UK and = US, strikers seeking better wages were clubbed and shot. In the wake of a Ma= y Day protest that brought 80,000 workers to Chicago’s Michigan Avenue= , police violence exploded. Within days, eight men were arrested.  A &n= bsp;trial was held, centering on a bomb all agreed none of those indicted ha= d planted. Five of the men were sentenced to death; the three others were re= manded to prison for life.

One would like to think that such excesses are a thing of the past. They ar= e not:

ABNER LOUIMA

AMADOU DIALLO (1)

LUC BENOIT BASILEKIN (2)

SUSANA GOMEZ, RONALD RAUL RAMOS (3)

SEATTLE, QUEBEC CITY, GENOA (4)

SEOUL, JAKARTA, BRISBANE (5)

JOHANNESBURG, PARIS (6)

BULGARIA, ALGERIA (7)

VIRGINIA (8)

(1) THREE YEARS AGO, A GUINEAN IMMIGRANT NAMED AM= ADOU DIALLO WAS STRUCK DOWN IN A HAIL OF BULLETS FIRED BY NEW YORK CITY POLI= CE. HE WAS REACHING FOR IDENTIFICATION; THE OFFICERS ASSUMED HE WAS REACHING= FOR A GUN. THEY FIRED FORTY-ONE BULLETS. NINETEEN HIT THE TARGET.

(2) IN FEBRUARY 2001, THE GOVERNMENT OF CAMEROON INSTITUTED THE OPER= ATIONAL COMMAND, A PARAMILITARY TASK FORCE BRINGING TOGETHER MEMBERS OF THE = LOCAL AND NATIONAL POLICE AND THE ARMY. THE C.O.’S OFFICIAL PURPOSE WA= S TO END A CRIME WAVE IN THE CITY OF DOUALA; IT WAS MEANT IN FACT TO BRING T= O HEEL SECTORS OF THE POPULATION OPPOSED TO THE REPRESSIVE RULE OF THE GOVER= NING PARTY. IN ITS FIRST SIX MONTHS, THE C.O. PERPETRATED 500 EXTRA-JUDICIAL= EXECUTIONS; BY YEAR’S END, 1000 PEOPLE HAD DIED.  ONE OF THE FIR= ST WAS LUC BENOIT BASILEKIN.

(3) IN APRIL 1996 IN GUATEMALA CITY, SUSANA GOMEZ WAS RAPED B= Y TWO NATIONAL POLICE OFFICERS; SHE WAS SIXTEEN YEARS OLD. IN SEPTEMBER 1996= , RONALD RAUL RAMOS WAS SHOT AND KILLED BY A TREASURY POLICE OFFICER; HE TOO= WAS SIXTEEN. MORE THAN TEN OTHER STREET CHILDREN WERE MURDERED THAT YEAR, L= IKELY BY POLICE. TWELVE MONTHS LATER, NONE OF THE PERPETRATORS IN THESE CASE= S HAD BEEN APPREHENDED.

(4) IN SEATTLE, QUEBEC CITY AND GENOA, OVER THE PAST TWO YEARS, UNAR= MED WOMEN, MEN AND CHILDREN CALLING FOR A MORE MEASURED APPROACH TO GLOBALIZ= ATION THAN HAS BEEN PROPOSED BY SUCH BODIES AS THE WTO AND WORLD BANK WERE A= TTACKED BY POLICE WIELDING BATONS, RUBBER BULLETS, WATER CANONS AND TEAR GAS= . SIMILAR VIOLENCE GREETED UNARMED PROTESTERS AT MAY DAY RALLIES THROUGHOUT = ASIA AND THE PACIFIC IN 2001, FROM SIDNEY AND BRISBANE TO KARACHI, SEOUL AND= JAKARTA.

(5) IN FEBRUARY 2002, A COLONY OF SQUATTERS WAS VIOLENTLY DISPERSED = IN CENTRAL JOHANNESBURG. THE POLICE LEVELED THE INHABITANTS’ MAKESHIFT= HOMES AND DESTROYED THEIR BELONGINGS. THE SQUATTERS WERE MADE TO BOARD BUSE= S AND WERE DRIVEN OUT OF THE CITY, WHERE THEY WERE UNCEREMONIOUSLY DUMPED, M= ILES FROM FRIENDS AND FAMILY. THE METHODS EMPLOYED IN THIS DISPERSAL WERE SI= MILAR TO THOSE USED IN FORCED REMOVALS OF THE APARTHEID ERA.

(6) ON SUNDAY OCTOBER 17, 1961, ALGERIANS LIVING IN PARIS ORGANIZED = A PEACEFUL MARCH TO PROTEST A CURFEW ON PERSONS OF ARAB DESCENT. THE POLICE = MOVED IN. THEIR COMMANDER WAS MAURICE PAPON, WHO DURING WWII HAD OVERSEEN TH= E REMOVAL OF 1560 FRENCH JEWS TO GERMAN CONCENTRATION CAMPS. TWO HUNDRED UNA= RMED ALGERIANS WERE SHOT, BLUDGEONED AND DROWNED.  PAPON REMAINS FREE. =  DAILY, FOR NO REASON BUT THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN, PERSONS OF NORTH AFR= ICAN DESCENT ARE DETAINED, ARRESTED, BEATEN AND SHOT ON FRENCH STREETS.

(7) SINCE 1994, RACIALLY MOTIVATED VIOLENCE AGAINST ROMA GYPSIES IN = BULGARIA HAS INCREASED DRAMATICALLY. MUCH OF THIS VIOLENCE IS PERPETRATED BY= POLICE AND PRIVATE SECURITY FIRMS. IN THE COURSE OF ONE WEEK, IN APRIL 2001= , EIGHTY YOUNG PEOPLE WERE KILLED BY THE POLICE IN KABYLIA, IN NORTH-EASTERN= ALGERIA.  ALL WERE MEMBERS OF THE MINORITY BERBER ETHNIC GROUP.

(8) ON MARCH 1, 1999, A SEVERED HEAD WAS FOUND IN A RICHMOND, VA PAR= K.  THE VICTIM WAS A GAY MAN. THE PARK HAD BEEN THE SITE FOR SEVERAL MO= NTHS OF A POLICE “STING”:  UNDERCOVER OFFICERS HAD BEEN APP= ROACHING GAY MEN, PROPOSING SEX, THEN PROMPTLY ARRESTING THOSE WHO SHOWED IN= TEREST. THE ARRESTS WERE WIDELY REPORTED. THE PUBLICITY GIVEN THEM MAY WELL = HAVE ENCOURAGED THE MURDERER.  WHY THE MANY PLAINCLOTHES OFFICERS PRESE= NT IN THE PARK ON THE NIGHT OF THE MURDER FAILED TO SEE ANYTHING IS ANYONE&#= 8217;S GUESS.

IN CENTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICA, IN NORTH AFRICA AND EUROPE, AMNESTY INTERNATI= ONAL AND THE INTERNATIONAL GAY AND LESBIAN HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION REPORT CA= SE AFTER CASE OF RAPE, TORTURE AND MURDER INVOLVING TRANSGENDER AND BISEXUAL= , LESBIAN AND GAY PERSONS, ALL TOO OFTEN BY POLICE.

From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 by Doc Searls In a bizarre move that requires a bazaar response, the U.S. Copyright Office plans to price Webcasters off the Net and replace the creative commons with a content pumping system for Big Media. Are you ready to lose Internet Radio? Well, get ready, because that's exactly what will happen if the Copyright Office carries out its current interpretation of the DMCA. For context, let's go back a couple weeks to when I wrote about some of the radio flowers blossoming on the creative commons we call the Net. Here's a bouquet: * KFJC * KPIG * RadioParadise * SmoothJazz * WUNC * WCPE * Radio FG * URGent * Beiruit Nights * Radio Free Klezmer * Radiostorm Hip-Hop/R&B * BassDrive * Cyberspace Sonata * Digitally Imported Radio * Factory188 * FlareSOUND I've also written about our friends at KPIG and Radio Paradise, where Bill Goldsmith has been making the most of open-source methods and software to give this young industry what it needs to grow and even make a little money along the way. When you tune into his stations (and to many of the others listed above), you're literally listening to Linux. What we're seeing with Internet Radio, even more than we saw with Napster, is the music market's workaround of a grotesquely obsolete regulatory environment where big-time broadcasting has grown safely protected from accountability to its own users. Today the AM and FM bands are populated almost entirely by a strange breed of immense mutant advertising-fed cattle that seem to reproduce only by cloning. Drive through four cities hitting your radio's SCAN button, and you'll find at least four different "Good Times, Great Oldies" stations playing the same playlist of 200 songs. And that's just the tip of the shitberg. Simply put, Internet Radio is what happens when Demand gets the power to Supply. It's nothing more complicated than The Market at work. But the regulators and their bizarre beneficiaries have no idea what a real market is, and they are lined up with bulldozers, ready to replace nature's own music marketplace with a new Net-enhanced version of the plumbing system we call The Media. They started with the DMCA, and their latest bulldozer is something called CARP, the Copyright Arbitration and Royalty Panel. After meeting in secret for the last several months, CARP issued a report on February 20 "recommending rates and terms for the statutory license for eligible nonsubscription services to perform sound recordings publicly by means of digital audio transmissions ("webcasting") under 17 U.S.C. �114..." etc. Specifically, CARP wants to charge very steeply--punitively--for broadcasting music on the Net. KPIG lays out the issues as kindly as they can: Independent webcasters such as KPIG are facing a grave threat to our existence. It may be an evil conspiracy on the part of the big record companies and corporate webcasters, or - more likely - it's just a dumb mistake. In either case, KPIG could soon be liable for huge music usage fees ($5,000 - $10,000 per month) that would make it impossible for us to stay online. The effect will be to outlaw webcasting, something the big broadcasters will never miss because it's a pain in their butts anyway. The DMCA anchors a strategic vector for these people, and it's not hard to see where it's pointing. How long before the Library of Congress (which is behind CARP, by the way), in cahoots with some new industry-led enforcement body, starts crawling the Web looking for matches between quoted and copyrighted text and busting individuals for violations? How long before free speech starts costing you? (And not just Dmitry.) Webcasting is just the first species marked for destruction. Whether this is an evil plot, a dumb bureaucracy at work or both, the effects are the same: the destruction of the Net as a commons and its replacement with a plumbing system for the distribution of "content" (a word hardly used in a shipping context before Big Media got all drooly over The Promise of The Net). So what can we do, beyond what the EFF and other friends are already up to? In my most recent SuitWatch newsletter, I called for two courses of action: One is to do everything we can to draw a distinction between the place-based concepts on which the Net and the Web were based (and which drive expressions like "address", "site", "home" and "location") and the plumbing-based concepts by which the both regulators and Big Media want to redefine the Net (and which drive expressions like "content", "deliver", "move" and "distribute"). I think Larry Lessig and the Creative Commons folk (who will have a high profile at the upcoming O'Reilly Emerging Technology Conference) are doing a good job at framing that one up. But we need to build on the Commons concept; just being conscious about language will help. Look at it this way: * We have the advantage if we talk about the Net as a place. * They have the advantage if we talk about the Net as a plumbing system for shipping content. (And make no mistake, it is a death-match between the two, one fought in our own minds as well as out in the social environment we call The Marketplace.) The other is to march on Washington*. I know that's very 60s and retro, but sometimes you just have to get physical. You have to deliver the missing clues, in person, to elected representatives and the regulators they employ. What better place to do that than on the nation's home commons? For a little motivation on that one, let's revisit the First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. Congress made exactly that kind of law with DMCA, and it needs to repealed. Let's show these guys there's nothing bizarre about democracy at work but, instead, something very bazaar. It's hard to imagine a more peaceable assembly than one that's nothing more than a real market doing its real job. *Or we could take a train, webcasting live music along the way, stopping to perform and have fun at venues along the way. Whatever it takes. Doc Searls is Senior Editor of Linux Journal and a co-author of The Cluetrain Manifesto. The opinions he expresses here are his own. -- Monica Narula Sarai:The New Media Initiative 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi 110 054 www.sarai.net From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Dear friends, Though I have been on the reader list for quite some time, I have never posted anything on it. Today I feel the acute need to spread the word around. With reference to what is happening in Gujarat, some of us who are part of the Delhi Network of Women Journalists (an informal group essentially) have felt the need to organise and channelise some relief material to the victims of the state sponsored pogrom. Now some people and organisations have been identified and I request members on this reading list to pitch in with whatever they can. Now what one learns is that the support structures of the minority community there have collapsed as they themselves have been affected, hence there is this added need and who else can respond but the secular amongst the majority community. I am sure almost all of you would agree with the need to send relief and hence I am mentioning some addresses where money or material relief could be sent. The Fatehpuri Masjid is in Chandni Chowk and journalists with the India Abroad News Service have already got into action and despatched clothes etc to there to be sent to Gujarat.. Regards, Rajalakshmi. Cheques/drafts can be made in the name of any of the following: i.St Xavier's Social Service Society, Ac No 01100050714, SBI, Main Branch (0301)Bhadra, Ahmedabad, 380 001. ii.Gujarat Education Society (Attn Fr Cedri Prakash), c/o Prashant, P.O. Box 4002, Ahmedabad 380 009. iii.Hazrat Shah e Alam Rahat Camp, Rasoolabad, Ahmedabad. Tel 079-5324901, Fax 5394850, run by Moin Shakir and Munnaf, recognised by the government. iv.Relief is also being organised by the Imam of Fatehpuri Masjid near Jama Masjid - clothes, medicines etc. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: al surveillance and electronic space in which our most intimate thoughts can= be charted. In this world, what few protections were afforded those who sta= nd in opposition to the status quo are lost, snatched back by systems of pol= icing -- local, national and global -- bent on breaking all but the tamest f= orms of resistance.

Such attacks on liberty are, needless to say, not new. Entire systems of ec= onomic and political domination have been built upon policing at once extrao= rdinarily violent and intrusive. Among these, one might cite the very system= on which the country we live in was founded. From the arrival of the first = slave ship at Jamestown Harbor in 1619 to the contemporary streets of our la= rgest cities, from the era of Jim Crow lynchings to the beating of Rodney Ki= ng and the killing of Amadou Diallo, the United States has been a place of v= iolence meted out at the hands of a few bent on controlling and silencing th= e many.  

Once, men and women of African descent, in this land, were deemed 3/5th of = a human being; today, so many men of African heritage -- one in every ten= -- are behind bars or otherwise ensnared in the criminal justice jugger= naut**  that one can legitimately speak of a genocide under way. In Atl= anta, Detroit, Los Angeles, women and men of Native American, Latino and, in= creasingly, Asian heritage are questioned, arrested, incarcerated at rates i= n no way commensurate with their representation in the population at large. = Post 9/11, over a thousand Arab men are in US jails, still waiting to be cha= rged with a crime; in many cases, their own families have not been told wher= e they are.

Elsewhere too, state violence has broken and continues to break lives, spir= its, entire peoples. Violent repression was the cornerstone of the colonial = project, in Africa and Asia alike.  Patrice Lumumba of Congo, murdered = by Belgian-trained gunmen mere months after his country gained independence;= Ruben Um Nyobe, heartbeat of Cameroon’s struggle for self-determinati= on, killed in a French ambush in 1958;  Steve Biko, beaten to death by = South African police in 1977... Theirs are but the best known names -- a pal= try few “history” deigns to recall among those of hundreds upon = hundreds of thousands who died, many resisting, killed by authorities in pow= er only because they had the means to destroy.

In Europe, as the industrial age emerged, workers died by the thousands. In= Napoleonic Paris, boulevards were cut through the city in wide swaths to ma= ke the task of shooting discontented factory hands easier, should they take = to the streets en masse. As the 19th century drew to a close, in the UK and = US, strikers seeking better wages were clubbed and shot. In the wake of a Ma= y Day protest that brought 80,000 workers to Chicago’s Michigan Avenue= , police violence exploded. Within days, eight men were arrested.  A &n= bsp;trial was held, centering on a bomb all agreed none of those indicted ha= d planted. Five of the men were sentenced to death; the three others were re= manded to prison for life.

One would like to think that such excesses are a thing of the past. They ar= e not:

ABNER LOUIMA

AMADOU DIALLO (1)

LUC BENOIT BASILEKIN (2)

SUSANA GOMEZ, RONALD RAUL RAMOS (3)

SEATTLE, QUEBEC CITY, GENOA (4)

SEOUL, JAKARTA, BRISBANE (5)

JOHANNESBURG, PARIS (6)

BULGARIA, ALGERIA (7)

VIRGINIA (8)

(1) THREE YEARS AGO, A GUINEAN IMMIGRANT NAMED AM= ADOU DIALLO WAS STRUCK DOWN IN A HAIL OF BULLETS FIRED BY NEW YORK CITY POLI= CE. HE WAS REACHING FOR IDENTIFICATION; THE OFFICERS ASSUMED HE WAS REACHING= FOR A GUN. THEY FIRED FORTY-ONE BULLETS. NINETEEN HIT THE TARGET.

(2) IN FEBRUARY 2001, THE GOVERNMENT OF CAMEROON INSTITUTED THE OPER= ATIONAL COMMAND, A PARAMILITARY TASK FORCE BRINGING TOGETHER MEMBERS OF THE = LOCAL AND NATIONAL POLICE AND THE ARMY. THE C.O.’S OFFICIAL PURPOSE WA= S TO END A CRIME WAVE IN THE CITY OF DOUALA; IT WAS MEANT IN FACT TO BRING T= O HEEL SECTORS OF THE POPULATION OPPOSED TO THE REPRESSIVE RULE OF THE GOVER= NING PARTY. IN ITS FIRST SIX MONTHS, THE C.O. PERPETRATED 500 EXTRA-JUDICIAL= EXECUTIONS; BY YEAR’S END, 1000 PEOPLE HAD DIED.  ONE OF THE FIR= ST WAS LUC BENOIT BASILEKIN.

(3) IN APRIL 1996 IN GUATEMALA CITY, SUSANA GOMEZ WAS RAPED B= Y TWO NATIONAL POLICE OFFICERS; SHE WAS SIXTEEN YEARS OLD. IN SEPTEMBER 1996= , RONALD RAUL RAMOS WAS SHOT AND KILLED BY A TREASURY POLICE OFFICER; HE TOO= WAS SIXTEEN. MORE THAN TEN OTHER STREET CHILDREN WERE MURDERED THAT YEAR, L= IKELY BY POLICE. TWELVE MONTHS LATER, NONE OF THE PERPETRATORS IN THESE CASE= S HAD BEEN APPREHENDED.

(4) IN SEATTLE, QUEBEC CITY AND GENOA, OVER THE PAST TWO YEARS, UNAR= MED WOMEN, MEN AND CHILDREN CALLING FOR A MORE MEASURED APPROACH TO GLOBALIZ= ATION THAN HAS BEEN PROPOSED BY SUCH BODIES AS THE WTO AND WORLD BANK WERE A= TTACKED BY POLICE WIELDING BATONS, RUBBER BULLETS, WATER CANONS AND TEAR GAS= . SIMILAR VIOLENCE GREETED UNARMED PROTESTERS AT MAY DAY RALLIES THROUGHOUT = ASIA AND THE PACIFIC IN 2001, FROM SIDNEY AND BRISBANE TO KARACHI, SEOUL AND= JAKARTA.

(5) IN FEBRUARY 2002, A COLONY OF SQUATTERS WAS VIOLENTLY DISPERSED = IN CENTRAL JOHANNESBURG. THE POLICE LEVELED THE INHABITANTS’ MAKESHIFT= HOMES AND DESTROYED THEIR BELONGINGS. THE SQUATTERS WERE MADE TO BOARD BUSE= S AND WERE DRIVEN OUT OF THE CITY, WHERE THEY WERE UNCEREMONIOUSLY DUMPED, M= ILES FROM FRIENDS AND FAMILY. THE METHODS EMPLOYED IN THIS DISPERSAL WERE SI= MILAR TO THOSE USED IN FORCED REMOVALS OF THE APARTHEID ERA.

(6) ON SUNDAY OCTOBER 17, 1961, ALGERIANS LIVING IN PARIS ORGANIZED = A PEACEFUL MARCH TO PROTEST A CURFEW ON PERSONS OF ARAB DESCENT. THE POLICE = MOVED IN. THEIR COMMANDER WAS MAURICE PAPON, WHO DURING WWII HAD OVERSEEN TH= E REMOVAL OF 1560 FRENCH JEWS TO GERMAN CONCENTRATION CAMPS. TWO HUNDRED UNA= RMED ALGERIANS WERE SHOT, BLUDGEONED AND DROWNED.  PAPON REMAINS FREE. =  DAILY, FOR NO REASON BUT THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN, PERSONS OF NORTH AFR= ICAN DESCENT ARE DETAINED, ARRESTED, BEATEN AND SHOT ON FRENCH STREETS.

(7) SINCE 1994, RACIALLY MOTIVATED VIOLENCE AGAINST ROMA GYPSIES IN = BULGARIA HAS INCREASED DRAMATICALLY. MUCH OF THIS VIOLENCE IS PERPETRATED BY= POLICE AND PRIVATE SECURITY FIRMS. IN THE COURSE OF ONE WEEK, IN APRIL 2001= , EIGHTY YOUNG PEOPLE WERE KILLED BY THE POLICE IN KABYLIA, IN NORTH-EASTERN= ALGERIA.  ALL WERE MEMBERS OF THE MINORITY BERBER ETHNIC GROUP.

(8) ON MARCH 1, 1999, A SEVERED HEAD WAS FOUND IN A RICHMOND, VA PAR= K.  THE VICTIM WAS A GAY MAN. THE PARK HAD BEEN THE SITE FOR SEVERAL MO= NTHS OF A POLICE “STING”:  UNDERCOVER OFFICERS HAD BEEN APP= ROACHING GAY MEN, PROPOSING SEX, THEN PROMPTLY ARRESTING THOSE WHO SHOWED IN= TEREST. THE ARRESTS WERE WIDELY REPORTED. THE PUBLICITY GIVEN THEM MAY WELL = HAVE ENCOURAGED THE MURDERER.  WHY THE MANY PLAINCLOTHES OFFICERS PRESE= NT IN THE PARK ON THE NIGHT OF THE MURDER FAILED TO SEE ANYTHING IS ANYONE&#= 8217;S GUESS.

IN CENTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICA, IN NORTH AFRICA AND EUROPE, AMNESTY INTERNATI= ONAL AND THE INTERNATIONAL GAY AND LESBIAN HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION REPORT CA= SE AFTER CASE OF RAPE, TORTURE AND MURDER INVOLVING TRANSGENDER AND BISEXUAL= , LESBIAN AND GAY PERSONS, ALL TOO OFTEN BY POLICE.

From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: And where you walk? Partition hots? Think of blind spots. Is it the hole Seen from the pole? Partition pangs? Come, see the gangs. Nostalgic words are making swords. Your fantasy, posited from the centre of cultural understanding, is unheimlich. Desired and dreaded. I read it as a drive lodged in your heart, which also tears Gujarat. You posit, Jyotsna, a "leaning-on" (anaclesis/anhelung). your outpouring. I am not sure: has "intersubjectivity" become such a fetish in America that it actually, coldly, evokes the reduction of regions of being to an incapacity to re-memory? The Partition is a hole into which has flowed, and still irresolvably flows, the excesses of passion. (Constructed in the first place; made by the "men" who "fought" for Independence. Today, narcissistically reproduced in a "national" un-official army that does not care a jot for religion or spirituality but believes that the future belongs to it, must belong to it.) The ethic of a "responsibility to otherness" is passe, after America-Afghanistan, Israel-Palestine, Gujarat-India. Stop effetely deconstructing, stop believing that language is world-disclosing. If you must act via language, switch your ethic. Consider the "responsibility to act". Start reconstructing. You are in the "omphalos" of the contemporary world. You can. But of course your capacity to coordinate action is reduced to the "racialized, patriarchal politics" of tenure. Take some classes in India. Why don't you come back to India and teach children some english? They need it, to get good jobs. Take on some classes in India. Why don't you come back to India and teach children some alternative ideology? They need it, to get the job you've now got. ________________________________________________________________________ For live cricket scores download Yahoo! Score Tracker at: http://in.sports.yahoo.com/cricket/tracker.html From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: (1) L K Advani (or, mum's the word) (2) Ariel Sharon (or, hum's the word) (3) George Bush (or, cum's the word) ________________________________________________________________________ For live cricket scores download Yahoo! Score Tracker at: http://in.sports.yahoo.com/cricket/tracker.html From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: So why is it, you think, that Jordan�s annexation of the West Bank and Egypt�s annexation of the Gaza Strip from 1949-67 didn�t trigger any emotions in the Palestinians who lived in those territories? Why is it that not once, in all of those 18 years, was there even a sentence of indignation uttered by the Palestinians or by their "liberation" organization about the injustice done to the inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza Strip? Why did other Arab states say nothing about it? You know why. And this means that the terror against Israel has always been, and still is, caused by something other than Israelis being on any kind of "territory." I�ll give you six hints about what the real cause is connected to: Hint #1: Hitler formulated the Final Solution because of it. Hint #2: it has something to do with why Israel cannot be found on a map in Palestinian geography classes. It�s also connected to why Palestinian textbooks teach Palestinian children that Jews are evil thieves who have taken Arab land and who must therefore be killed. The textbooks also tell the kiddies that suicide bombing is what Allah loves most, since that noble and holy activity is the most effective way of murdering Jews and "liberating" Palestine. Hint #3: it�s why the Palestinian Authority has published the Arabic translation of Mein Kampf, and why that tract has reached number six on its best-seller list. Hint #4: It is connected to why, in 1960, when the Israelis captured Adolph Eichmann, the government-run Saudi Arabian newspaper ran a story headlined: "Arrest Of Eichmann, Who Had The Honor Of Killing Six Million Jews." Hint #5: it has something to do with the great honor and respect that is bestowed in the Middle East upon anyone who succeeds in killing Jews. For instance, if you blow yourself up along with some innocent Jewish mothers and babies, your picture will be plastered on posters throughout your hometown. Your family will acquire a revered place in society and will also receive $25,000 in American currency from Saddam Hussein. You, meanwhile, will get to fulfill all of your wildest and repressed sexual fantasies with 72 virgins in heaven. Hint #6: the whole matter is related to why Hashemi Rafsanjani, the eminent representative of "Iranian moderation," has boasted that once the Muslim world gets a hold of nuclear weapons, which he assures will be very soon, the Jewish "question" will be solved forever. Now that you know what the real cause of Palestinian terror is, make sure to always deny it. Instead, consistently maintain to others that it is the result of Israelis being on "Palestinian territory." Tip #3 � Ignore the words of Palestinians. When you make your arguments for the Palestinian right to a homeland, always make sure to emphasize that the Palestinians acknowledge the right of Israel to exist. To make sure this works effectively, never mention, or ever even think about, what the Palestinians actually say themselves. For instance, never talk about the Palestinian Covenant of 1968, because it embodies the philosophical principles of the Palestinians themselves and says things that would shatter the foundation to all of your arguments. For instance, Article 19 affirms that, "The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of Israel is fundamentally null and void, whatever time has elapsed, because it is contrary to the wish of the people of Palestine and its natural right to its homeland." Article 15 states that, "The liberation of Palestine, from the Arab viewpoint, is a national duty to repulse the Zionist, Imperialist invasion from the great Arab homeland and to purge the Zionist presence from Palestine." Also ignore Articles 20 and 22, because they reject even the historical and religious ties of Jews to the Holy Land itself. And that is precisely why Palestinian children are yet to find the state of Israel on any maps in their geography classes. You also shouldn�t worry that Arafat has never repudiated the Articles in the Palestinian Covenant of 1968. This explains why, when speaking English to Western audiences, he always talks about how he acknowledges the right of Israel to exist. But when he speaks Arabic to Arab audiences, he does little else but boast about his successes in working toward the Palestinians� most ambitious goal: to destroy the state of Israel. One only has to briefly listen to the Arab media, mosque sermons, and classroom and cafe conversations to gauge that this disposition represents a wide consensus in Arab society in general and in Palestinian society in particular. Thus, when you are trying to persuade someone about the good intentions of Arafat and the Palestinian Authority, and how they accept the existence of Israel, never mention what the Palestinians themselves talk about. You should most definitely stay away from the subject of the 1968 Palestinian Covenant, because this could cause you problems. If someone else brings it up, change topics immediately. Tip #4 � Imagine that Palestinians were, and are better off without Israel and the Israeli "occupation." You should be constantly angry about the suffering of Palestinians and be convinced that it is the fault of Israel. Palestinian suffering should always be equated with Israeli responsibility. These two notions must be inseparable in your mind. Palestinian suffering is definitely not the fault of Arafat or of all the Arab states � even though they have done everything in their power to make sure that the Palestinians do not receive a homeland. That�s right. So try not to reflect too much on why the Palestinians of the West Bank are barred from becoming citizens in the Arab world. When the Gaza Strip was under Egyptian administration, for instance, the Palestinians there were denied Egyptian citizenship and thereby remained stateless. This is exactly why the Palestinians are known as "refugees." The Arabs love their Palestinian brothers. It�s just that, well, they love them from a distance. In any case, you should try your hardest to convince yourself that the Palestinians� life under the Israeli "occupation" is the worst experience of any people under any regime in the history of the human race. The first step to believing this notion is to ignore the fact that Palestinians are much worse off in occupied Lebanon, where they are denied basic rights to employment, healthcare and government services �- unlike the Palestinians in Israel and in the "occupied" territories. You should also avoid the subject of how Kuwait ethnically cleansed all Palestinians (about 300,000 of them) just a decade ago, and how Jordanians slaughtered thousands of them after the 1967 war. Try to imagine that all of this isn�t very relevant. And neither is the fact that the world community never said too much about these Arab atrocities. It�s okay when Muslim Arabs practice genocide against Palestinians. It�s only wrong when the Israelis oppress Palestinians in the effort to defend themselves from terror. You also shouldn�t stress yourself about the racism against Arabs that this whole double standard implies. Indeed, by holding Jews up to a higher moral accountability than Arabs, the view that lets Arabs off the hook for oppressing their own brethren implies a civilizational inferiority to them -- and a civilizational superiority to Jews. But don�t think through this too much. You might get depressed after realizing that, deep down, just like a Leftist despises the "underclass" people for whom he purports to speak, so too you have smug contempt for the Arabs that you believe you represent in your self-alienated imagination. The key, in general, is that you should just avoid the whole issue of how the Jews have treated the Palestinians much better than the Arabs have. It is also a very good idea for you to ignore the fact that Israel has given birth to an Arab citizenry inside Israel of more than one million people. This way you won�t have to wonder how it is that, as Israeli citizens, Arabs have more rights, privileges and opportunities than the citizens of any Arab state in the Middle East. Unlike their Arab brothers and sisters, Arab citizens in Israel vote in free elections and are themselves elected to the Israeli parliament. In other words, the only place where Arabs know democracy and a high standard of living is in a Jewish nation. This is a hard pill to swallow for a person like you, who aspires to demonize Israel and to glorify the Arab world as the embodiment of true democracy and stupendous progress in world civilization. So what you have to do is visualize images of how Israel is the most evil nation on the face of the earth and how Arabs and Palestinians have endured unspeakable suffering because of it. Tip #5 � Imagine that Israel controls the "occupied" territories for some bizarre, vague and sinister reason. That�s right: imagine that Israel controls the "occupied" territories because Jews have nothing better to do than to inflict pain. They think it�s in their interest to trigger terrorism against themselves, as well as to ignite the hatred of a large portion of the world�s population. With great moral indignation, you should say things like, "the Israelis need to get out of the occupied territories." Say this as if it is a really easy, simple and safe thing for the Israelis to do. Never consider that the Israeli "occupation" of the territories in question might actually not be the greatest crime in world history. It might also not deserve immediate rectification. Sometimes land is confiscated when aggressive and terrorist states repeatedly attack their neighbors -- and lose. But this should not be your concern. What should be your concern is to say things that make Israel look as if it controls areas like the West Bank because Israelis need to fill the void of no longer being allowed to sacrifice and eat gentile babies in their religious rituals. Tip #6 � Say that Arafat isn�t a terrorist. You should always say things like: "One man�s terrorist is another man�s freedom-fighter." After that, say things like, "Arafat is a freedom-fighter." You must always ignore that Arafat has provided sanctuary and support to Palestinian suicide bombers and terrorists of all stripes. Be very open-minded about how he has personally endorsed suicide bombings rhetorically and celebrated the cult of "martyrdom" and other forms of homicide. And always make sure to announce things like, "Arafat has imprisoned militants." When you say this, don�t worry that the Palestinian "jails" that Arafat places "militants" in are notorious for their bars in the front and revolving doors at the back. Just tell people that Arafat is really trying to get terrorism under control. Don�t lose any sleep over the fact that explosives of the specific type used by Palestinian suicide bombers have been found in Palestinian police stations all over the "occupied" territories. Also don�t concern yourself with the fact that 500 Palestinians were just recently arrested in and around Arafat's compound and that dozens of them were on Israel's lists of most-wanted terrorists. Arafat was obviously still trying his best to track these people down. The reason he couldn�t find them was that they were cleverly hiding in his office while he was desperately patrolling the West Bank looking for them. And by all means, deny to others, as well as to yourself, that connections between the Palestinian Authority and international Islamic terror organizations, including al-Qaeda, have now been established beyond any reasonable doubt. If you accept this reality, then your whole belief system will come crashing down. Just look really sure of yourself and say things like, "Arafat isn�t a terrorist. He is a freedom fighter." Tip #7 � Imagine that Arafat has the interests of his own people in mind. This is the key to being an effective apologist for Arafat. You must always tell people that your hero truly cares about his own people �- even though the history of his every move negates the possibility of this being the case. A person that truly wanted the best for the Palestinian people would have embraced an offer that accepted 95% of the Palestinians� negotiating demands and would have given the Palestinians their own sovereign state in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip, more than 90 percent of the West Bank, and a capital in Jerusalem. That�s what Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered Arafat in 2000. But Arafat rejected the proposal, demanding, instead, the flooding of Israel with millions of Palestinians. He knew, as Israelis did, that such a development would destroy Israel as a Jewish state. Arafat shrewdly understood that Israel could not, and would not, engage in self-destruction and this is how he succeeded in his main objective: to avoid the creation of a new Arab state and to annihilate the only Jewish one. That�s what the "Palestinian uprising," after all, is really all about. It is obvious, therefore, why Arafat has consistently stifled all Israeli efforts to improve the prosperity of the Palestinian people. He wants his people to bleed in misery and destitution. That way their suffering can be exploited in the Arabs� suicide wars against Israel. Now the key for you, therefore, is to deny the obvious. You know that the "Palestinian problem" is far more useful to Arafat than its solution will ever be. Arafat knows that peace with Jews is his own political suicide at best �- and his own death warrant at worst. What you have to do is look people in the eyes as honestly as you can and say things like, "Arafat is really trying to help his people." Say this as if you yourself have been talking to Arafat and that he tells you things that he wouldn�t confide in most people. Tip #8 � Say that Arab terrorism has nothing to do with jealousy. It is absolutely crucial that you consistently tell anyone you talk to that Israel is vehemently hated by the Arabs because of something that Israel has done to the Arabs. Never consider what the Arabs of the Middle East would do with all of their time if there were no Israel. Never suspect that Middle Eastern Arabs spend such an inordinate amount of their daily life hating a nation that takes up 1% of land in the Middle East because they might have a little problem with envy and jealousy. It might not be the easiest thing for Arabs to reconcile themselves with the reality that their culture has yet to produce one prosperous, functional and democratic society. Yet they see that the Jews have accomplished exactly that � in a tiny piece of land that was a desert fifty years ago. Indeed, the Jews have built the most powerful economy and the only industrial and democratic nation in the entire Middle East. This is a very painful truth for Middle Eastern Arabs to accept. So as an Arafat apologist, your job is to completely ignore this phenomenon. You must fantasize that when Arabs jump up and down with ferocious rage for hours on end every day screaming "Death to Israel," that the solution to their rage is definitely not to get a job, let alone a life of any kind. The solution lies in the Jews smartening up and stopping being so evil. If they did that, then obviously Arabs would find better things to do then spend ten hours a day, seven days a week, hollering at the top of their lungs and foaming at their mouths in the middle of the barren deserts that they have lived in for centuries. You see: Arabs don�t fail in making progress because of any serious pathology in their personal lives and culture. No, they mope around in long robes and headscarves in medieval societies because of what the Jews are doing to the Palestinians. And yes, ok, these same Arabs never lifted a finger or mouthed a word of protest when the Palestinians received much harsher treatment from Arabs. But don�t think this through. Actually, if anyone ever points this out to you, just say that the Arabs did protest the persecution of the Palestinians by other Arabs but that the Western press just didn�t report it. Tip #9 � Say it�s in Israel�s interest to pursue "peace". You should constantly say that it is in Israel�s interest to pursue "peace," even though all of the evidence suggests the exact opposite. More Israelis have died from terrorism since the signing of Oslo in 1993 than in the four decades before it. There have been more than 80 suicide bombings against Israel since the "peace process" began. Before Oslo, suicide bombings were almost non-existent. Each new atrocity against Israelis since 1993, meanwhile, has been hailed by the Palestinian media and the Palestinian Authority that controls it. You should ignore facts such as these and make it a daily habit to say things like, "The Israelis should really try to make peace with Arafat. It�s in their interest." Tip #10 � Shed yourself of any integrity you might have ever had. In order for you to practice the previous nine tips successfully, you need to make sure that you rid yourself of any personal dignity or integrity that might ever have been a part of your character and personality. You have to be absolutely shameless and live by absolutely no ethical or moral standard of any kind. Otherwise you will not be able to lie to others, and to yourself, the way I instruct you to. Arafat supporters have done it effectively before you. But now you can do it the best. Be the best liar you can be. That way, you might yet become the best Arafat apologist on earth. You can do it! Jamie Glazov holds a Ph.D. in History with a specialty in Soviet Studies. He is the author of 15 Tips on How to be a Good Leftist and of Canadian Policy Toward Khruschev�s Soviet Union ( McGill-Queens University Press, 2002). Born in the U.S.S.R., Jamie is the son of prominent Soviet dissidents, and now resides in Vancouver, Canada. He writes the Dr. Progressive advice column for angst-ridden leftists at EnterStageRight.com. Email him at jglazov at rogers.com. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax --0-567383480-1018603657=:54661 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii http://www.frontpagemag.com/columnists/glazov/2002/glazov04-11-02.htm


Ten Tips on How to Be an Arafat Apologist
FrontPageMagazine.com | April 11, 2002
By: Jamie Glazov

WITH ALL OF THE EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE that has now confirmed, beyond any reasonable doubt, Arafat�s terrorist connections and duplicitous behavior vis-�is Israel, it has become impossible for Arafat�s apologists to make any legitimate excuses for their hero.  I know a number of academics and writers that have become extremely depressed because of this situation.  Having based their entire lives and professional careers on blaming Israel for any and every sparrow that fell from the sky, they have now lost the will to live.  I feel sorry for these pathetic people.

I have decided to come forward to help the individuals who want to continue championing Yasser Arafat but simply don�t know how.

Seeing that I have dedicated most of my adult life to observing and dissecting the psychotic mindset that it takes to blame Israel for the conflict in Palestine, I know exactly what it takes to be an Arafat supporter.  Even in these difficult times, I can teach an individual how to effectively defend Arafat and the Palestinian Authority �- even if the entire charade is filled with specious nonsense and lies.

I have created ten tips on how to be an Arafat apologist.  They come with an easy to follow step-by-step guide.  All you have to do is fertilize your personal dedication to anti-Semitism and then simply allow yourself to become as delusional as humanly possible.

The video infomercial for these tips should be coming out next month on television stations across the United States.  Meanwhile, here is the basic outline for all those Jew-haters who have dedicated their lives to blaming Israel for every Arab terrorist act but thought that doing so was no longer possible:

Tip #1 � Imagine that the Palestinians are fighting for a homeland that was taken away from them by the evil Jews.

That�s right.  The foundation to becoming and remaining a faithful pro-Arafat enthusiast is to intoxicate yourself with the belief that the Palestinians actually once owned a homeland that was, in turn, stolen by the greedy and parasitic Jews.

While trying to convince yourself of this fantasy, ignore the historical fact that the Palestine Mandate was never a nation, let alone even a political entity of any kind.  It was a "mandate" that was created by the British from the remnants of the Turkish Empire after World War I.  10% of it was given to the Jews and 90% was given to the Palestinian Arabs.

The key here is that you should never worry about where 90% of Palestine actually is.  Just obsess with the miniscule tiny bit of land that the Israelis "occupy" now.  It�s not important that this land was never officially "owned" by anyone in the first place.

You should also never reflect on whether all of your rage and hatred on this issue is proportional to the fact that Israel consists of 1% of the land in the Middle East.

Just get really angry that Israel is on territory that you think should be given to the Palestinians.  And because you think this, then it automatically makes it right and historically correct.

You should never wonder how your moral indignation on this issue fits with your complete indifference to the fact that Jordan occupies 80% of the land that made up the original Palestine Mandate.  So if you really cared about the Palestinians, you would obviously be focusing your energy on protesting the crime being perpetrated by the Jordanians against the Palestinians.  But the key here is that, well, deep down, you don�t really care about the Palestinians -� and neither should you.  You must never admit this, but the Palestinians are only there for you to cynically exploit as pawns in your contributory effort to finish off what Adolph Hitler started.

That�s right.  You know what I�m talking about.  And even the Palestinians are in on this with you.  I mean, think about it: if the Palestinians themselves really cared about getting a homeland, don�t you think that they would be screaming about -- and fighting for -- the land that Jordan occupies?  Don�t you think it is somewhat curious that Jordan has never, even for a second, been the target of a Palestine liberation movement?

Don�t you think it is a little bit curious that, in 1948, the Palestinian Arabs rejected an international resolution that would have established a Palestinian state, and instead focused all of their energies on destroying the new Jewish state?

You�re starting to get the picture now, right?

So be a smart and clever Arafat apologist.  The overall objective of your life should be facilitating the killing of Jews and destroying the state of Israel.  The last thing you should be doing is worrying about the Palestinians.  At the same time, however, in terms of what you actually say in public, you must always discuss the Middle East "problem" on the assumption that you are agonizing over the Palestinians� plight and how their entire "homeland" somehow lies in tiny little Israel.

It is also a very good idea that you always refer to the myth of how the Jews "stole" the Palestinian "homeland" in passing, because then it makes its reality appear to be a given.  You can�t believe how effective this ploy can be, especially in the midst of people who know nothing about Middle East history.

So believe in yourself and just do it!

Tip #2 � Never question the cause of Palestinian terror.

Every time that a Palestinian blows himself up along with innocent Jewish civilians, including babies in carriages, you should shake your head in despair and say things like, "That poor Palestinian.  But he simply had no choice.  The Israelis have pushed his people beyond their means."

You should always say things like this with a tone that implies that the "Israeli occupation" is the most oppressive reality in the world.  Say things like, "The Israelis are doing to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to them."  Follow this up with sentences like, "The Jews have obviously forced the Palestinians into terrorism."

When you mouth these slogans, make sure to have a serious and sincere look on your face, otherwise the asininity of what you are saying might become more easily discernable.  Maintaining a sober facial expression can be made easier if you convince yourself that the wars of 1973 and 1967 are irrelevant to the subject at hand.

Before Israel was attacked in 1973, it occupied less of the land that is now in dispute, and before 1967, it occupied none of it.  In other words, the Arab terror that was unleashed against Israel in 1967 had nothing to do with the Israeli "occupation" of the West Bank and Gaza Strip because the "occupation" did not exist.

From 1949-1967, Jordan had occupied the West Bank while Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip.  But instead of the Arabs using terror against Egypt and Jordan to get them off of the Palestinians� "land,", an Arab war of terror against Israel was launched in 1967.  Israel won that war and grabbed both the West Bank and Gaza Strip as a security measure.

So why is it, you think, that Jordan�s annexation of the West Bank and Egypt�s annexation of the Gaza Strip from 1949-67 didn�t trigger any emotions in the Palestinians who lived in those territories?  Why is it that not once, in all of those 18 years, was there even a sentence of indignation uttered by the Palestinians or by their "liberation" organization about the injustice done to the inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza Strip?  Why did other Arab states say nothing about it?

You know why.  And this means that the terror against Israel has always been, and still is, caused by something other than Israelis being on any kind of "territory."  I�ll give you six hints about what the real cause is connected to:

Hint #1: Hitler formulated the Final Solution because of it.

Hint #2: it has something to do with why Israel cannot be found on a map in Palestinian geography classes.  It�s also connected to why Palestinian textbooks teach Palestinian children that Jews are evil thieves who have taken Arab land and who must therefore be killed.  The textbooks also tell the kiddies that suicide bombing is what Allah loves most, since that noble and holy activity is the most effective way of murdering Jews and "liberating" Palestine.

Hint #3: it�s why the Palestinian Authority has published the Arabic translation of Mein Kampf, and why that tract has reached number six on its best-seller list.

Hint #4: It is connected to why, in 1960, when the Israelis captured Adolph Eichmann, the government-run Saudi Arabian newspaper ran a story headlined: "Arrest Of Eichmann, Who Had The Honor Of Killing Six Million Jews."

Hint #5: it has something to do with the great honor and respect that is bestowed in the Middle East upon anyone who succeeds in killing Jews.  For instance, if you blow yourself up along with some innocent Jewish mothers and babies, your picture will be plastered on posters throughout your hometown.  Your family will acquire a revered place in society and will also receive $25,000 in American currency from Saddam Hussein.  You, meanwhile, will get to fulfill all of your wildest and repressed sexual fantasies with 72 virgins in heaven.

Hint #6: the whole matter is related to why Hashemi Rafsanjani, the eminent representative of "Iranian moderation," has boasted that once the Muslim world gets a hold of nuclear weapons, which he assures will be very soon, the Jewish "question" will be solved forever.

Now that you know what the real cause of Palestinian terror is, make sure to always deny it.  Instead, consistently maintain to others that it is the result of Israelis being on "Palestinian territory."

Tip #3 � Ignore the words of Palestinians.

When you make your arguments for the Palestinian right to a homeland, always make sure to emphasize that the Palestinians acknowledge the right of Israel to exist.  To make sure this works effectively, never mention, or ever even think about, what the Palestinians actually say themselves.

For instance, never talk about the Palestinian Covenant of 1968, because it embodies the philosophical principles of the Palestinians themselves and says things that would shatter the foundation to all of your arguments.  For instance, Article 19 affirms that, "The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of Israel is fundamentally null and void, whatever time has elapsed, because it is contrary to the wish of the people of Palestine and its natural right to its homeland."

Article 15 states that, "The liberation of Palestine, from the Arab viewpoint, is a national duty to repulse the Zionist, Imperialist invasion from the great Arab homeland and to purge the Zionist presence from Palestine."

Also ignore Articles 20 and 22, because they reject even the historical and religious ties of Jews to the Holy Land itself.  And that is precisely why Palestinian children are yet to find the state of Israel on any maps in their geography classes.

You also shouldn�t worry that Arafat has never repudiated the Articles in the Palestinian Covenant of 1968.  This explains why, when speaking English to Western audiences, he always talks about how he acknowledges the right of Israel to exist.  But when he speaks Arabic to Arab audiences, he does little else but boast about his successes in working toward the Palestinians� most ambitious goal: to destroy the state of Israel.  One only has to briefly listen to the Arab media, mosque sermons, and classroom and cafe conversations to gauge that this disposition represents a wide consensus in Arab society in general and in Palestinian society in particular.

Thus, when you are trying to persuade someone about the good intentions of Arafat and the Palestinian Authority, and how they accept the existence of Israel, never mention what the Palestinians themselves talk about.  You should most definitely stay away from the subject of the 1968 Palestinian Covenant, because this could cause you problems.  If someone else brings it up, change topics immediately.

Tip #4 � Imagine that Palestinians were, and are better off without Israel and the Israeli "occupation."

You should be constantly angry about the suffering of Palestinians and be convinced that it is the fault of Israel.  Palestinian suffering should always be equated with Israeli responsibility.  These two notions must be inseparable in your mind.

Palestinian suffering is definitely not the fault of Arafat or of all the Arab states � even though they have done everything in their power to make sure that the Palestinians do not receive a homeland.

That�s right.  So try not to reflect too much on why the Palestinians of the West Bank are barred from becoming citizens in the Arab world.  When the Gaza Strip was under Egyptian administration, for instance, the Palestinians there were denied Egyptian citizenship and thereby remained stateless.  This is exactly why the Palestinians are known as "refugees."

The Arabs love their Palestinian brothers.  It�s just that, well, they love them from a distance.

In any case, you should try your hardest to convince yourself that the Palestinians� life under the Israeli "occupation" is the worst experience of any people under any regime in the history of the human race.  The first step to believing this notion is to ignore the fact that Palestinians are much worse off in occupied Lebanon, where they are denied basic rights to employment, healthcare and government services �- unlike the Palestinians in Israel and in the "occupied" territories.

You should also avoid the subject of how Kuwait ethnically cleansed all Palestinians (about 300,000 of them) just a decade ago, and how Jordanians slaughtered thousands of them after the 1967 war.

Try to imagine that all of this isn�t very relevant.  And neither is the fact that the world community never said too much about these Arab atrocities.  It�s okay when Muslim Arabs practice genocide against Palestinians.  It�s only wrong when the Israelis oppress Palestinians in the effort to defend themselves from terror.

You also shouldn�t stress yourself about the racism against Arabs that this whole double standard implies.  Indeed, by holding Jews up to a higher moral accountability than Arabs, the view that lets Arabs off the hook for oppressing their own brethren implies a civilizational inferiority to them -- and a civilizational superiority to Jews.  But don�t think through this too much.  You might get depressed after realizing that, deep down, just like a Leftist despises the "underclass" people for whom he purports to speak, so too you have smug contempt for the Arabs that you believe you represent in your self-alienated imagination.

The key, in general, is that you should just avoid the whole issue of how the Jews have treated the Palestinians much better than the Arabs have.

It is also a very good idea for you to ignore the fact that Israel has given birth to an Arab citizenry inside Israel of more than one million people.  This way you won�t have to wonder how it is that, as Israeli citizens, Arabs have more rights, privileges and opportunities than the citizens of any Arab state in the Middle East.  Unlike their Arab brothers and sisters, Arab citizens in Israel vote in free elections and are themselves elected to the Israeli parliament.  In other words, the only place where Arabs know democracy and a high standard of living is in a Jewish nation.

This is a hard pill to swallow for a person like you, who aspires to demonize Israel and to glorify the Arab world as the embodiment of true democracy and stupendous progress in world civilization.

So what you have to do is visualize images of how Israel is the most evil nation on the face of the earth and how Arabs and Palestinians have endured unspeakable suffering because of it.

Tip #5 � Imagine that Israel controls the "occupied" territories for some bizarre, vague and sinister reason.

That�s right: imagine that Israel controls the "occupied" territories because Jews have nothing better to do than to inflict pain.  They think it�s in their interest to trigger terrorism against themselves, as well as to ignite the hatred of a large portion of the world�s population.

With great moral indignation, you should say things like, "the Israelis need to get out of the occupied territories."  Say this as if it is a really easy, simple and safe thing for the Israelis to do.

Never consider that the Israeli "occupation" of the territories in question might actually not be the greatest crime in world history.  It might also not deserve immediate rectification.  Sometimes land is confiscated when aggressive and terrorist states repeatedly attack their neighbors -- and lose.

But this should not be your concern.

What should be your concern is to say things that make Israel look as if it controls areas like the West Bank because Israelis need to fill the void of no longer being allowed to sacrifice and eat gentile babies in their religious rituals.

Tip #6 � Say that Arafat isn�t a terrorist.

You should always say things like: "One man�s terrorist is another man�s freedom-fighter."  After that, say things like, "Arafat is a freedom-fighter."

You must always ignore that Arafat has provided sanctuary and support to Palestinian suicide bombers and terrorists of all stripes.  Be very open-minded about how he has personally endorsed suicide bombings rhetorically and celebrated the cult of "martyrdom" and other forms of homicide.

And always make sure to announce things like, "Arafat has imprisoned militants."  When you say this, don�t worry that the Palestinian "jails" that Arafat places "militants" in are notorious for their bars in the front and revolving doors at the back.  Just tell people that Arafat is really trying to get terrorism under control.

Don�t lose any sleep over the fact that explosives of the specific type used by Palestinian suicide bombers have been found in Palestinian police stations all over the "occupied" territories.  Also don�t concern yourself with the fact that 500 Palestinians were just recently arrested in and around Arafat's compound and that dozens of them were on Israel's lists of most-wanted terrorists.  Arafat was obviously still trying his best to track these people down.  The reason he couldn�t find them was that they were cleverly hiding in his office while he was desperately patrolling the West Bank looking for them.

And by all means, deny to others, as well as to yourself, that connections between the Palestinian Authority and international Islamic terror organizations, including al-Qaeda, have now been established beyond any reasonable doubt.  If you accept this reality, then your whole belief system will come crashing down.

Just look really sure of yourself and say things like, "Arafat isn�t a terrorist.  He is a freedom fighter."

Tip #7 � Imagine that Arafat has the interests of his own people in mind.

This is the key to being an effective apologist for Arafat.  You must always tell people that your hero truly cares about his own people �- even though the history of his every move negates the possibility of this being the case.

A person that truly wanted the best for the Palestinian people would have embraced an offer that accepted 95% of the Palestinians� negotiating demands and would have given the Palestinians their own sovereign state in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip, more than 90 percent of the West Bank, and a capital in Jerusalem.  That�s what Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered Arafat in 2000.  But Arafat rejected the proposal, demanding, instead, the flooding of Israel with millions of Palestinians.  He knew, as Israelis did, that such a development would destroy Israel as a Jewish state.

Arafat shrewdly understood that Israel could not, and would not, engage in self-destruction and this is how he succeeded in his main objective: to avoid the creation of a new Arab state and to annihilate the only Jewish one.  That�s what the "Palestinian uprising," after all, is really all about.

It is obvious, therefore, why Arafat has consistently stifled all Israeli efforts to improve the prosperity of the Palestinian people.  He wants his people to bleed in misery and destitution.  That way their suffering can be exploited in the Arabs� suicide wars against Israel.

Now the key for you, therefore, is to deny the obvious.

You know that the "Palestinian problem" is far more useful to Arafat than its solution will ever be.  Arafat knows that peace with Jews is his own political suicide at best �- and his own death warrant at worst.

What you have to do is look people in the eyes as honestly as you can and say things like, "Arafat is really trying to help his people."  Say this as if you yourself have been talking to Arafat and that he tells you things that he wouldn�t confide in most people.

Tip #8 � Say that Arab terrorism has nothing to do with jealousy.

It is absolutely crucial that you consistently tell anyone you talk to that Israel is vehemently hated by the Arabs because of something that Israel has done to the Arabs.

Never consider what the Arabs of the Middle East would do with all of their time if there were no Israel.

Never suspect that Middle Eastern Arabs spend such an inordinate amount of their daily life hating a nation that takes up 1% of land in the Middle East because they might have a little problem with envy and jealousy.

It might not be the easiest thing for Arabs to reconcile themselves with the reality that their culture has yet to produce one prosperous, functional and democratic society.  Yet they see that the Jews have accomplished exactly that � in a tiny piece of land that was a desert fifty years ago.  Indeed, the Jews have built the most powerful economy and the only industrial and democratic nation in the entire Middle East.

This is a very painful truth for Middle Eastern Arabs to accept.  So as an Arafat apologist, your job is to completely ignore this phenomenon.  You must fantasize that when Arabs jump up and down with ferocious rage for hours on end every day screaming "Death to Israel," that the solution to their rage is definitely not to get a job, let alone a life of any kind.  The solution lies in the Jews smartening up and stopping being so evil.  If they did that, then obviously Arabs would find better things to do then spend ten hours a day, seven days a week, hollering at the top of their lungs and foaming at their mouths in the middle of the barren deserts that they have lived in for centuries.

You see: Arabs don�t fail in making progress because of any serious pathology in their personal lives and culture.  No, they mope around in long robes and headscarves in medieval societies because of what the Jews are doing to the Palestinians.  And yes, ok, these same Arabs never lifted a finger or mouthed a word of protest when the Palestinians received much harsher treatment from Arabs.  But don�t think this through.  Actually, if anyone ever points this out to you, just say that the Arabs did protest the persecution of the Palestinians by other Arabs but that the Western press just didn�t report it.

Tip #9 � Say it�s in Israel�s interest to pursue "peace".

You should constantly say that it is in Israel�s interest to pursue "peace," even though all of the evidence suggests the exact opposite.  More Israelis have died from terrorism since the signing of Oslo in 1993 than in the four decades before it.  There have been more than 80 suicide bombings against Israel since the "peace process" began.  Before Oslo, suicide bombings were almost non-existent.  Each new atrocity against Israelis since 1993, meanwhile, has been hailed by the Palestinian media and the Palestinian Authority that controls it.

You should ignore facts such as these and make it a daily habit to say things like, "The Israelis should really try to make peace with Arafat.  It�s in their interest."

Tip #10 � Shed yourself of any integrity you might have ever had.

In order for you to practice the previous nine tips successfully, you need to make sure that you rid yourself of any personal dignity or integrity that might ever have been a part of your character and personality.  You have to be absolutely shameless and live by absolutely no ethical or moral standard of any kind.  Otherwise you will not be able to lie to others, and to yourself, the way I instruct you to.  Arafat supporters have done it effectively before you.  But now you can do it the best.  Be the best liar you can be.  That way, you might yet become the best Arafat apologist on earth.  You can do it!

Jamie Glazov holds a Ph.D. in History with a specialty in Soviet Studies. He is the author of 15 Tips on How to be a Good Leftist and of Canadian Policy Toward Khruschev�s Soviet Union ( McGill-Queens University Press, 2002). Born in the U.S.S.R., Jamie is the son of prominent Soviet dissidents, and now resides in Vancouver, Canada. He writes the Dr. Progressive advice column for angst-ridden leftists at EnterStageRight.com.  Email him at jglazov at rogers.com.


Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax --0-567383480-1018603657=:54661-- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: To the north, Damascus in Syria and Beirut in Lebanon are both only about 150 miles away and could be struck by near-supersonic Israeli jets less than 10 minutes after they cross northern Israel�s border. The Suez Canal is only about 200 miles from Jerusalem and far less distance from Israeli airfields. Cairo is about 250 miles from Jerusalem. But the real doomsday target in Egypt is the Aswan High Dam only 550 miles from King David�s city. If blown open with nuclear weapons, it would release the immense reservoir of Lake Nasser and unleash a flood of biblical proportions that would destroy almost everything and everyone in Cairo and all along Egypt�s Nile Valley. Tripoli on the far side of madman Col. Muammar al-Qadhafi�s Libya is 1,300 miles from Jerusalem. But the Israeli Air Force has already demonstrated its ability, as Aharon Lapidot puts it, to "strike silent, strike far" by rescuing hostages in Entebbe, Uganda, and by hitting PLO headquarters in Tunisia, just over 1,500 miles west of Jerusalem on the North African coastline beyond the shores of Tripoli. Baghdad, where Saddam Hussein rules Iraq deluded by his belief that he is the Nebuchadnezzar of a new Assyrian Empire, is less than 600 miles from Jerusalem. In 1981 Israeli aircraft preemptively destroyed the Osirak reactor being built near Baghdad, thereby keeping nuclear weapons out of this madman�s hands. Israelis could easily strike Baghdad again, this time with nuclear weapons of their own. Even distant Tehran and the Ayatollahs of Iran sit less than 1,000 miles from Jerusalem, scarcely more than the distance from Los Angeles to Denver. Jericho-2 missiles could be goosed to get there within minutes, and at full throttle Israeli jets could have mushroom clouds sprouting above Tehran in little more than an hour�.or maybe less. Riyadh, the capital of Saudi Arabia, is about 850 miles from Jerusalem and could be destroyed before its princes got into their holes, if Israel so desired. All Persian Gulf oilfields could also be sent to heaven in glowing smoke and radioactive flame, thereby turning whatever Arabs survived back into the Bedouin goatherds they had been before oil was discovered or needed by a modern world. But the ultimate doomsday target, of course, would be Mecca � the mystical center of Islam towards which devout Muslims bow in prayer five times each day. Come doomsday, as a last gesture Israel could vaporize the Black Stone, the Kaaba, the burial place of the Prophet Mohammed and all of Mecca. Thereafter Muslims could bow daily towards a place resembling Arizona�s Meteor Crater. The moral of this story: ultimately the Palestinians can never win everything they want. They need to compromise and make peace. Even if they could destroy Israel, to do so would destroy them, too, as well as the surrounding Islamic nations that support them. But Israel also needs to recognize that, sooner or later, Muslim nations will acquire their own weapons of mass destruction. Unless a way to peace can be found, one morning 20 or 30 years from now Israelis will awaken to 50,000 nuclear cruise missiles saturating their defenses and eradicating the Jewish State. What looked like stalemate will within minutes of retaliation then turn into mutual checkmate, mutual assured destruction. As the saying goes: an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Mr. Ponte hosts a national radio talk show Saturdays 6-9 PM Eastern Time (3-6 PM Pacific Time) that can be heard on 213 station and via TalkAmerica.com. The show�s live call-in number is (888) 822-8255. A professional speaker, he is a former Roving Editor for Reader�s Digest. Click here to send him a message. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax --0-1419986499-1018603745=:93321 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
 
The Other "Suicide Bombers"
By: Lowell Ponte
FrontPageMagazine.com | April 12, 2002

IN CHESS, THE BEST PLAYERS ARE ABLE to think ahead, recognizing the consequences that their next move could have 10, 20 or 30 moves later. Both sides in the Arab-Israeli conflict urgently need to consult with the geopolitical equivalent of such chess grandmasters.

The apparent goal of Palestinian extremists, for example, is to push Israel into the sea and take back 100 percent of its land. We can infer this because Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered Yasser Arafat 95 percent of everything the Palestinian leader demanded, but an uncompromising Arafat rejected this and re-ignited Intifada violence against the Jewish state.

What are the chances of Palestinians and the Arab nations winning by such violent tactics and all-or-nothing strategy? Zero, a chess master ought to tell them, and here is why.

If pushed to the sea�s edge, millions of Israelis would indeed flee to nations such as the United States wise enough to welcome those with their talents and intelligence.

But millions of Israelis would remain, and in a last-ditch stand they would fight to the death. This happened almost 2,000 years ago atop Masada, the Dead Sea mountaintop fortress where Jews took their own lives (technically not by suicide, but killed by a few who by lot had been picked to carry this sin) rather than surrender to Roman soldiers.

Today Israeli paratroopers and other soldiers go to this fortress and take an oath: "Masada shall not fall again." Psychologists describe the determination never to surrender of many Israelis as the "Masada Complex."

These remaining Jews, if pushed to the brink of annihilation, could and perhaps would take steps that would make today�s Palestinian "suicide bombers" look trivial by comparison.

If Israel loses, neither the Palestinians nor any unfriendly nation within 2,000 miles would "win." Israel could take them all down with it. Israel could turn the entire Middle East into a smoking, radioactive hole in the ground. Israel could blast fertility out of the Fertile Crescent and leave the barren region clicking hot for hundreds of years. This might not be Biblical Armageddon, but it would be a reasonable facsimile.

At its Dimona 150-Megawatt heavy-water nuclear reactor, Israel for more than three decades has been creating and reprocessing Plutonium. Israel on July 13, 1998, acknowledged that it has "built a nuclear option not in order to have a Hiroshima but an Oslo [Peace Accord]."

Most defense analysts estimate the number of Israeli nuclear weapons at up to 200, and one calculates that the Jewish State might possess up to 400 such weapons. Israel might also have manufactured a small number of H-bombs, thermonuclear explosives.

Israel has many delivery systems for these nuclear weapons. To mention only a few: 50 or so home-made Jericho-2 missiles reportedly can deliver a 2,200 pound payload to targets at least 900 miles away. Israel has been developing a Jericho-3 missile using space rocket Shavit technologies that can strike 2,900 miles away with the same 2,200 pound nuclear payload.

Israel already, according to MSNBC, possesses "25 nuclear capable F-15Es [and] about 80 older F-4 Phantoms." To understand what this means, an F-15E or Israel�s variant F-15I has a ferry range of up to 3,450 miles without refueling and can carry a payload weighing 23,000 pounds. The aging F-4E (not to mention Israel�s F-4/2000s) has a ferry range of about 1,550 miles and can carry a 16,000-pound payload.

Combat capability calculations are not based on the ferry range of aircraft, which replaces some weapon payload with extra fuel tanks. We instead assume that pilots fly out to a target and need fuel to return. But Israeli Kamikazis flying a one-way doomsday mission can expend all their fuel to reach a target. They could reach targets 80-90 percent of ferry range away with a compact nuclear weapon. Israel also can use FAST packs and other techniques to boost potential range, speed or payload.

In such a doomsday scenario, in fact, almost any of Israel�s hundreds and hundreds of aircraft could be used to deliver nuclear weapons if pilots were willing to become martyrs for their Jewish faith or nation.

Americans come from a big country. Those who have never visited the Middle East usually fail to understand its smaller scale. To envision the above doomsday scenario, consider some distances.

From the hills of Jerusalem at night, you see the skyglow from nearby Amman, Jordan.

To the north, Damascus in Syria and Beirut in Lebanon are both only about 150 miles away and could be struck by near-supersonic Israeli jets less than 10 minutes after they cross northern Israel�s border.

The Suez Canal is only about 200 miles from Jerusalem and far less distance from Israeli airfields. Cairo is about 250 miles from Jerusalem. But the real doomsday target in Egypt is the Aswan High Dam only 550 miles from King David�s city. If blown open with nuclear weapons, it would release the immense reservoir of Lake Nasser and unleash a flood of biblical proportions that would destroy almost everything and everyone in Cairo and all along Egypt�s Nile Valley.

Tripoli on the far side of madman Col. Muammar al-Qadhafi�s Libya is 1,300 miles from Jerusalem. But the Israeli Air Force has already demonstrated its ability, as Aharon Lapidot puts it, to "strike silent, strike far" by rescuing hostages in Entebbe, Uganda, and by hitting PLO headquarters in Tunisia, just over 1,500 miles west of Jerusalem on the North African coastline beyond the shores of Tripoli.

Baghdad, where Saddam Hussein rules Iraq deluded by his belief that he is the Nebuchadnezzar of a new Assyrian Empire, is less than 600 miles from Jerusalem. In 1981 Israeli aircraft preemptively destroyed the Osirak reactor being built near Baghdad, thereby keeping nuclear weapons out of this madman�s hands. Israelis could easily strike Baghdad again, this time with nuclear weapons of their own.

Even distant Tehran and the Ayatollahs of Iran sit less than 1,000 miles from Jerusalem, scarcely more than the distance from Los Angeles to Denver. Jericho-2 missiles could be goosed to get there within minutes, and at full throttle Israeli jets could have mushroom clouds sprouting above Tehran in little more than an hour�.or maybe less.

Riyadh, the capital of Saudi Arabia, is about 850 miles from Jerusalem and could be destroyed before its princes got into their holes, if Israel so desired. All Persian Gulf oilfields could also be sent to heaven in glowing smoke and radioactive flame, thereby turning whatever Arabs survived back into the Bedouin goatherds they had been before oil was discovered or needed by a modern world.

But the ultimate doomsday target, of course, would be Mecca � the mystical center of Islam towards which devout Muslims bow in prayer five times each day. Come doomsday, as a last gesture Israel could vaporize the Black Stone, the Kaaba, the burial place of the Prophet Mohammed and all of Mecca. Thereafter Muslims could bow daily towards a place resembling Arizona�s Meteor Crater.

The moral of this story: ultimately the Palestinians can never win everything they want. They need to compromise and make peace. Even if they could destroy Israel, to do so would destroy them, too, as well as the surrounding Islamic nations that support them.

But Israel also needs to recognize that, sooner or later, Muslim nations will acquire their own weapons of mass destruction. Unless a way to peace can be found, one morning 20 or 30 years from now Israelis will awaken to 50,000 nuclear cruise missiles saturating their defenses and eradicating the Jewish State. What looked like stalemate will within minutes of retaliation then turn into mutual checkmate, mutual assured destruction. As the saying goes: an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

Mr. Ponte hosts a national radio talk show Saturdays 6-9 PM Eastern Time (3-6 PM Pacific Time) that can be heard on 213 station and via TalkAmerica.com. The show�s live call-in number is (888) 822-8255. A professional speaker, he is a former Roving Editor for Reader�s Digest. Click here to send him a message.


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Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax --0-1419986499-1018603745=:93321-- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: short story 'Letter from the Year 1920'. For that story does indeed = speak about the 'clock rhythms' of Bosnia's religious communities, and = its title also includes the year which so enthused Mr Glotz. The story = was not written in 1920, but shortly after World War II - in 1947, if I = remember correctly. This is the beginning of the Second Yugoslavia, a = time in which politics (but also common sense, for Heaven's sake) = demanded not just of literature, but of all human activities, that they = should articulate the fatal danger of glorifying differences or reducing = all relations between the Yugoslav peoples to a mere sum of differences: = a time when the foundations of a new unity were being laid. (The nature = of that unity - and how unfortunate it was that the unity was not of a = different kind - is a theme for another occasion.) 1920 was the first = year of the First Yugoslavia. Knowledge of the basic facts of Andric's = biography and the basic elements of his literary technique would have = sufficed for an intelligent reader to realise why Andric placed this = year in the title of his story. As any such reader would have = understood, it was a covert polemic against the new regime's conviction = that it represented a point of rupture; that with it had begun a = qualitatively new era; that it had made possible the leap from zero to = one - i.e. from non-existence to existence. I cannot, unfortunately, = explain here all the implications of the fact that the story 'Letter = from the Year 1920' was written immediately after World War II. I = mention this fact only to illustrate yet again how well informed Mr = Glotz is; how capable he is of reading and of understanding what he = reads. He sees a year in the title, and assumes that the text was = written in that year. He reads the word 'Letter' in the title, and = assumes that the text is indeed a letter. He reads the sentence: 'That = difference is always akin to hatred', and assumes that this is lived = experience and the author's final judgement.=20 Peter Glotz has the right to be ill educated, but as a career politician = he does not have the right to be ill informed. He ought to know to what = genre the text he quotes belongs; he ought to know that Knin does not = have 800,000 inhabitants; he ought to know that Slovenes have a separate = language. It would be desirable, though not obligatory, for him to know = what I shall now explain to him, without any ironical intention. = So-called fabulative literary forms contain also text spoken by their = characters. In order to be able to understand fully these textual = passages, and the work as a whole, we must take into account which = character, at which moment, and for which purpose, is speaking what we = are reading. When I say 'which character', I am thinking of his fate in = the text, his personality, his momentary situation, his relationship to = the character he is addressing, etc. (in other words, all that the = concept of character implies). In texts of this kind, statements never = refer directly to reality outside the work. So it would be wrong to = conclude that Goethe was a necrophiliac, though his character in the = drama Faust did show certain predilections for the deceased Helen. All = this, and much more, has been explained by a man (now unfortunately = dead) called Aristotle: you can find out about all these confusing = matters from his work 'The Art of Poetry'.=20 This short lesson means that the statements in 'the letter' allegedly = 'quoted' from the story 'A Letter from the Year 1920' cannot be ascribed = to Andric. They can be understood only if it is also understood that = they were 'written' by a character (of what kind? with what fate? at = what moment?), on the basis of experience acquired at a time 'prior to = the establishment of unity'; and that he is addressing them, in a = certain psychological situation (of what kind?), to somebody (to whom?). = A story cannot be quoted as a source of political information -even high = political functionaries should know this much. Bertrand Russell once = suggested that schools should teach how to read newspapers with = suspicion. After the experience I have acquired during my year of exile = of how literature is read, I would suggest an even stranger subject that = would be called Basic Theories of Literature.=20 Or are we, in fact, dealing with something quite different? It is = possible that even Peter Glotz would be bewildered if I were to make = judgements about the Thirty Years' War on the basis of Kleist's Michael = Kohlhaas (even though the story's subtitle says it is 'From an Old = Chronicle'). But that is quite another matter, of course: do I have the = right to behave like Peter Glotz?! (Thank the Lord, to be frank, that I = do not have that right.) And just where do I get the crazy idea from, = that somebody so powerful has to be correct towards Bosnia and even = accept that literature is written there which has to be read as = literature? Or are we not dealing with something completely different: = i.e. with a type of thought in which we are imprisoned, and which is = precisely our experience of the world and ourselves in that world = (rather than just a mere technology of cerebral labour)?=20 I think this is indeed what we are dealing with: a type of thought that = determines us as closely and inescapably as our own skin. I do not = believe that Enzensberger would willingly laugh at his own verses, nor = do I believe that Peter Glotz would willingly make people who are able = to think logically laugh at his expertise. I do not believe that they = refuse to know anything about what they teach to humanity. I believe = that they fail to know it - because they are prevented by a model of = thought that determines their very ability to know.=20 I believe that the basic principles of this type of thought are revealed = very clearly in the examples I have given above, demonstrating what kind = of thought we are dealing with. Those basic principles are: 1. what I do = not understand does not exist; 2. the Other is not actually real, the = Other is my notion of him; 3. everything which is not I - which I have = not adopted and made part of my image of the world - is, and can be, = only an object; 4. naked mechanistic power is the sole criterion of = truth, goodness and beauty. These principles and this type of thought we = know very well from the European tradition. They created the foundations = and alibis for Europe's colonial conquests, articulating the truth that = the English had to conquer India in order to civilise it, and that North = American Indians and Australian Aborigines were thrilled to bits = (literally to bits) by similar civilising missions. They have created a = spiritual ambience in which it is normal to produce nuclear weapons, and = to conduct the most morbid genetic experiments as innocently as if = selling Christmas cards. In other words, they have expunged ethics and = metaphysics as irrelevant, since God and ethics stubbornly refuse to be = mechanical phenomena. They have articulated the concept of ethical = neutrality, ascribing it first to the exact sciences and then to all = other human activities.=20 I do not, of course, think that Messrs Enzensberger and Glotz are = responsible for all that I have described here, nor have I described it = on their account. But, demonstrating precisely this type of thought, = they spoke about something which constitutes my fate, so concerns me = deeply. Bewildered, worried and dismayed I tried to understand what was = going on, because I had believed that multiculturalism, openness and = polyphony had freed Europe from vulgar-mechanical thought. I really did = think that, in the new Europe, only a minority believed they possessed = more truth, goodness and beauty because they had more money and weapons; = and that because they have more money and weapons they can decide about = life and death. Believing that Europe had articulated the concept of a = unity higher than the mechanical one, I asked myself if I were mad = because I remembered my life the way I had lived it, and thought about = my home in the way I did. This is why I felt the need, indeed the = necessity, to question myself about what others were explaining to me = about me. Messrs Enzensberger and Glotz were not accidentally chosen - = they are very characteristic. They are, in fact, part of the = Establishment, as are so many of those who try to tell me how I lived. = Karl May was an outsider, just as many of those who treat me as a real = person are. Was Karl May able to talk about us Indians with so much = affection and understanding precisely because he was an outsider, or did = he remain an outsider because he loved and understood us Indians?=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C1EDEC.38EB6420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Friends,
Apropos the earlier discussion on = Karahasan, and=20 the situation in Bosnia, I'd like to share the following article with = the list.=20
 
Rehan might be intrigued to know that = many viewers=20 of 'Hey Ram' left at the interval, an unusual case of audience control = over the=20 reception of a film.
 
I'm not sure which RSS shakhas Shuddha = is referring=20 to. The tokenist appropriation of the "Mahatma" never fooled anyone, = least of=20 all intelligent Marxists  seeking to understand the fascination = with=20 fascism amongst the middle classes, whose rejection and fear of their = own past=20 rarely permitted an investigation of the seductive power of fascist=20 rhetoric/imagery, until recently. There is still a minor Mein Kampf cult = to be=20 found in the university, for example. And the Hindu right has always = blamed=20 Gandhi for the xyz crores that were transferred to Pakistan, (essential = given=20 the absence of an adequate infrastructure) in the face of = opposition from=20 both Hindu nationalists and the bania lobby within the Congress. = That's why=20 he was killed, and the same logic is being invoked today (the finishing = of the=20 Partition agenda of the Hindu right) to justify the eviction of Muslims = from=20 properties in Gujarat, and the destruction of Sufi dargahs across the = state.=20 There are many flaws within Gandhian thought and idealism, but let's get = the=20 facts straight before leaping to preordained conclusions. 'Hindus aur = Musalman=20 mein samas hona chahiye', wrote G. , attempting = to create the=20 space for a generative grammar of intercommunity relations . Today his = followers=20 are being threatened by the mobs in his own state, an impossibility if = there was=20 such an ideological convergence as Farzana tries to establish. Mallika = Sarabhai=20 has already left, along with many Muslim families, and the=20 Sarvodayites/Gandhians are under siege as never before-- cf. the = Sabarmati=20 showdown, the fascist intolerance of resistance to the NBA. This has = little to=20 do with religious differences, really; it's an expression of a modern = form of=20 violence internalised by the self and projected onto the other, = combined=20 with a profound cultural erasure. Unfortunately, some dimwitted leftists = seem to=20 suffer from the same syndrome. No wonder Kamal Hasan was practically = hustled out=20 of the Nehru Museum Library!
 
Such a shock to learn of Nishit Saran's = death. I'm=20 sure the list shares the grief and sorrow of his friends and family-- we = join=20 Monica in conveying our condolences to them.
 
Rgds,
Tarun
 

Europe's Wild East

or what Europe's failure to understand Bosnia says about Europe

Dzevad Karahasan

When I was small, my mother often went to = hospital=20 leaving me in the care of our neighbour Marica, who I should make clear = - given=20 the times in which we live - is a Catholic and Croat. Marica would = always fetch=20 from our house the cooking pots in which to cook for me, and literally = every=20 time she would explain to me that I could not eat with her children, = because=20 they ate pork. 'That's a sin for your people, and if I were to let you = eat it in=20 my house the sin would fall on my soul', she would say. I believe I got = the=20 information about not eating pork from my mother, but I am quite certain = it is=20 to Marica that I owe my acceptance of that information with feeling and=20 experience, something that is deeper and stronger than rational = knowledge.=20

My father was a Communist, so we used to celebrate religious holidays = almost=20 in secret - we celebrated them while pretending not to. The celebration = was=20 reduced to two quite recognisable elements: cake-baking and a visit from = our=20 family friend Brother Klemo, Guardian of the Monastery at Duvno. If = mother had=20 made a pile of cakes and Brother Klemo came to visit - it was Bajram. If = only=20 one of these things happened, then it was some festive occasion but = definitely=20 not Bajram. The way you could tell that the holiday was being = celebrated,=20 unseemly though it may be, was the combination of cakes with Brother = Klemo's=20 visit.=20

Brother Klemo and other Catholic friends who visited us at Bajram = would=20 pretend that they had simply dropped in, father too would pretend that = our=20 friends had come by quite accidentally, while mother would not pretend = but would=20 bring out the cakes. I did not pretend either but looked forward to = these visits=20 - each new visit meant new cakes also for me. Something similar would = happen=20 during Catholic holidays: we would visit friends, father would pretend = we had=20 just dropped in, while mother would openly offer best wishes and I would = openly=20 eat whatever was offered.=20

I spent 22 years in Sarajevo and came to know quite well not only its = daily=20 life, but also what I would term its 'local mythology': i.e. the = combination of=20 untested beliefs firmly held by all who feel themselves to be the city's = true=20 inhabitants. The key components of this local mythology were: the little = Orthodox church in Bascarsija has one of the world's richest museums of = Orthodox=20 art; the Bey's mosque has one of the world's richest collections of = carpets; the=20 church of St Anthony on Bistrik is so large and beautiful because our=20 Franciscans managed to carry the day against the Austro- Hungarian = authorities,=20 who were none too fond of Franciscans. Each of these places, of course, = was=20 linked with countless legendary or true anecdotes, of the kind which = make up any=20 local mythology in a city dear to its inhabitants. It is important = nowdays to=20 stress that these stories from the local mythology were told - and pride = in the=20 holy places was shared - equally by people of all confessions. Muslims,=20 Catholics and Jews took as much pride as the Orthodox did in the = Orthodox=20 church's fantastic collection, just as the church of St Anthony simply = belonged=20 to us all.=20

Almost all the Bajrams I celebrated in Sarajevo I celebrated with = Mile Baric=20 and Ivan Bubalo, professors at the city's Faculty of Franciscan = Theology. To=20 Enes Karic, professor at the Faculty of Islamic Theology, I was = introduced by=20 our common friend Rada Ivekovic from Zagreb, whom I would describe as by = confession a writer and intellectual. Other professors from the Faculty = of=20 Islamic Theology I met at the Faculty of Franciscan Theology, while = celebrating=20 Catholic religious holidays.=20

That is how things were until recently - until 1990. Then the people = in=20 Belgrade discovered that Serbs were endangered everywhere in the world,=20 especially in Bosnia, and 'intellectual missions' made their appearance, = bent on=20 'saving endangered Serbdom' by separating the Orthodox segment from = other=20 segments of daily life. Without much success, to tell the truth, since = the local=20 mythologies adopted during centuries of common life simply proved = stronger than=20 the new ideologies. That is why the new ideologues decided to continue = politics=20 by other means: in April 1992 military attacks on Bosnia began, = conducted by the=20 Yugoslav People's Army, which re-invented itself as the 'Army of = Yugoslavia' or=20 'Serb Army' or whatever its name is now.=20

I spent one year of the war in Sarajevo in a building in which lived: = 11=20 Bosniaks (Moslem faith), 7 Serbs (Orthodox faith), 5 Croats (Catholic = faith),=20 and two people born in so-called mixed marriages so that it is difficult = to=20 define their religion in 'pure categories'. We spent that year running = to the=20 cellar together, sharing water and food, giving to and stealing from = each other,=20 quarrelling about our place in the queue when collecting rainwater at = the=20 downpipe from a gutter. We also spent that year convincing each other = that we=20 were bound to win, since there were too many of us to disappear without = a trace.=20

After a year of such life I left Sarajevo and Bosnia, because I felt = useless.=20 The final-year students got their degrees, but I found it impossible to = organise=20 lectures for the rest. The hospital where I was helping got itself so = well=20 organised that every attempt to help on my part proved useless. I became = just=20 one hunger extra, one fear extra, and one water- drinker extra, in a = city in=20 which there was a surfeit of hunger and fear, but a deficit of water. So = I went=20 away, first to Austria, then to Germany, then further on to the free and = fortunate world of Western Europe.=20

I arrived in the free and fortunate world and began to feel = bewildered, so=20 that now, after spending a year in that world, I have come seriously to = ask=20 myself and others whether I really existed; whether I really experienced = what I=20 remember; whether I am a wicked liar and mystifier falsifying my forty = years of=20 life, or perhaps a pitiful patient who believes he remembers something = that=20 naturally did not happen, because it could not have happened. I have = learned=20 that we in Bosnia were victims not of a crazed chauvinism - which = managed to=20 find a use for a huge decapitated army, when this was in search of a = state and a=20 leader willing to employ it - but of our own nature. I have learned that = the=20 Bosnia in which I reached (optimistically speaking) my middle age does = not exist=20 and never did. I have learned much that has bewildered me and led me to = ask=20 painful questions about myself. This is because I have learned these new = and=20 bewildering things from people who rightly think of themselves as being = somebody=20 in contemporary European thought; and if you come from the Balkans - and = from=20 poor Bosnia, at that - then you care about European thought, especially = the=20 current which gives expression to so-called contemporary Europe.=20

The reflections on my fate (since it is my own fate too that is at = stake: I=20 am no ideologue and cannot raise myself above the individual's fate, = especially=20 when it is my own) which so painfully troubled me are undoubtedly an = important=20 contribution to contemporary European thought, not only because of the = influence=20 which this kind of thinking has on so-called public opinion, but also = because of=20 its ability to articulate clearly and simply certain concepts, ideas and = images=20 and offer them as the self-consciousness of a period and culture. This = is why I=20 have the need and obligation to reflect a little, in the company of = witnesses,=20 on certain characteristic statements in which this type of thinking is = almost=20 paradigmatically expressed. Not, in other words, just because these = statements=20 about my personal experience run directly contrary to my own, but above = all=20 because I consider the authors of these statements to be important = people, and=20 because I consider the type of thinking manifested in their statements = very=20 significant for what calls itself contemporary European thought.=20

The well-known German poet Hans Magnus Enzensberger, for example, = believes=20 that what is happening in Yugoslavia is a civil war among wild tribes. = Now=20 Enzensberger has inherited, through no merit of his own, a magnificent = culture;=20 he has also inherited, through no fault of his own, National- Socialist=20 barbarism. Since the heir inherits both the real wealth and the bad = debts,=20 Enzensberger, in order to be able to inherit with full legality Hoffmann = and=20 Kleist, Goethe and Schiller, must accept within the terms of his = inheritance=20 also Himmler. When I say inheritance I mean knowledge, understanding, = mastery -=20 i.e. cultural tradition in all possible senses. As a serious poet and a = serious=20 intellectual, Enzensberger inherits only what is legally his.=20

How then, in view of all this, is it possible for him not to = recognise what=20 has been happening in Yugoslavia since 1988, i.e. since the time when = the regime=20 still in power in Serbia clearly formulated its fundamental positions? = The basic=20 fund of information (newspaper reports, at least) was sufficient for a=20 knowledgeable person to recognise everything and understand it. = Paraphrasing one=20 of Enzensberger's own poems, I can perfectly describe and define what = has been=20 happening in the Balkans since 1988: namely, that was when everybody = began to=20 speak Cyrillic. Yes, the Cyrillic script in post-1988 Serbia was = precisely what=20 the Gothic script was in the Reich, at the time which Enzensberger = describes as=20 the time when people spoke Gothic.=20

It was long ago, of course, when Enzensberger wrote that poem, very = long ago,=20 yet - how is it possible that he fails to recognise in reality his own = verses?=20 Or is it reality that is the problem? What I have squandered so many of = my years=20 upon - is that reality for the German poet?=20

The time when everybody spoke Cyrillic began with the public = proclamation of=20 a programme basically reducible to three tenets: 1. all Serbs must live = in the=20 same state; 2. Serbia is wherever there are Serbs; 3. Serbia has the = right to=20 use all means, including military force, to defend the interests of = Serbs=20 wherever they are endangered, and it is the Serbian government that = decides=20 where this is the case. This programme, i.e. the right to a political = programme=20 of such a kind, is based on the idea that the Serbs are a heavenly = people - a=20 view which, although not formally adopted by the government, is = constantly=20 present in all public media and can be heard expressed at mass meetings = by even=20 the highest government representatives.=20

Does this remind you of anything? The heavens are high, are they not? = So a=20 heavenly people, if only in a technical sense, must have something to do = with a=20 higher race. In order to earn the right to read Meister Eckhart, = Enzensberger=20 must certainly have read the almost identical programme of the state in = which=20 long ago Gothic was spoken. And yet he believes that Serbia, under the=20 government which proclaimed this programme, is waging exclusively civil = wars!=20 Does he believe that the military conflicts in Czechoslovakia in the = 1930s, when=20 the people who spoke Gothic were defending the interests of their = conationals,=20 must have been a civil war - one of those civil wars to which the = inhabitants of=20 Czechoslovakia were extraordinarily prone?=20

With regard to what is happening in Bosnia, I think first of all of = certain=20 characteristic fates, since I have actually experienced the whole of = this=20 tragedy through a few characteristic fates. The fate, say, of the two = old people=20 from the neighbouring building whose son Jasmin was torn apart by a = grenade in=20 our yard in July 1992, and whose daughter was imprisoned from the start = of the=20 war in a Serb concentration camp for the insemination of women. The fate = of=20 little Amina, whose parents were killed before her eyes, while she was = wounded=20 in the knee. The fate of that lovely young man Samir, who was in the = city with=20 his mother while his father was targeting them both from the hills = above. From=20 the great men whose heir Hans Magnus Enzensberger is, and among others = from=20 Lessing, I have learned that individual people have fates, while great=20 collectivities have a history - and that literature is concerned with = fates. I=20 know this because I have learned it from the German classics. How is it = possible=20 that the German poet Enzensberger, who has absorbed German classical = literature=20 along with the smells of his family home - absorbed it in the same way = that the=20 link between darkness and sleep is absorbed - how is it possible that = any poet,=20 of any kind whatsoever, does not know that for a writer the human fate = is of the=20 truest interest (he was a contemporary of B=F6ll's, after all, and may = even have=20 known him)? The poet Enzensberger does know this, he knows it just as = well as he=20 knows the second law of thermodynamics. But to know it from inside, in = the way=20 in which writers know it (the way B=F6ll knew it), it would be necessary = to feel,=20 in relation to the concrete war, the link between that war and the = individual=20 fate. In order to feel this, however, it is necessary to feel that 'out = there'=20 is real and happening to people, since only real people can have fates. = Which=20 means that 'out there' are not tribes, but Amina, Jasmin and Samir. = Which means=20 that it is all actually happening to us, and not to someone in some = exotic 'out=20 there' which by definition is not real...=20

I believe this is the problem. Enzensberger is undoubtedly a poet, = and it is=20 terribly important to me to believe that he is just as undoubtedly a = person with=20 good intentions. He would undoubtedly view everything happening in the = Balkans=20 through the prism of the Cyrillic script, the pseudo-mythical image of a = heavenly people and the fate of Jasmin's parents - if only he could feel = that it=20 was all happening in the real world. In the real world, however, we see, = recognise and understand what our culture and the way of thinking we = have=20 absorbed shows us -allows us to see. One type of thinking (which was = dominant in=20 Europe in the second half of the last century) does not allow anything = 'out=20 there' to be recognised as real, since everything outside Europe is = exotic.=20 Western Europe is reality, everything else is exoticism and, in the = exotic 'out=20 there', no fates, people or reality exist.=20

The same type of thinking, but in a caricaturally simplified version, = is=20 represented by the prominent politician, commentator and - alas! - = official=20 Balkan expert, Peter Glotz. The life and thought of this eminent person = are=20 worthy of attention, since the mechanism of a certain type of thinking - = the=20 'technology' of a certain type of intellectual labour - can be grasped = very well=20 in his case, precisely because it is demonstrated very clearly thanks to = its=20 caricatural reduction to the basic form. A few random examples will = perhaps=20 suffice to illustrate the type of thinking with which I am concerned = here, and=20 which still appears to play a central role in what might be called = European=20 thought.=20

The text 'Wer Kampfen will, soll vortreten' (Die Zeit, = 15.1.1993) is=20 a veritable treasure-house of statements exhibiting the mechanism and=20 characteristics of this type of thought, in all their nakedness. At the = very=20 beginning of the text, the author Glotz treats with irony (indeed = mockery) the=20 decision of the German Minister of Posts to resign from the government, = because=20 of the latter's passivity towards 'Southeastern Europe'. Mr Glotz bases = his=20 irony on a number of facts: 1. the minister who has resigned is a = technocrat; 2.=20 he is a sinologist by training; 3. he is not an expert on Southeastern = Europe.=20 So the man is a figure of fun if he feels human responsibility for a = tragedy he=20 has witnessed (if only indirectly), and feels sympathy for the people = affected=20 by it, although he is not an expert on the region in which the tragedy = is=20 occurring. As a sinologist he has the right to feel compassion for the = Chinese,=20 and to feel a human sense of responsibility (in Kant's meaning) for what = happens=20 in China; but compassion for the Bosnians he must relinquish to = Balkanologists=20 (since we have no Bosnologists).=20

I, poor sinner, must confess that at first I was dumbfounded by the=20 monstrosity of this logic; that I wanted to run away from the free and = fortunate=20 world in which people think like this; that I longed painfully for my = primitive=20 world, in which we felt sorry for the misfortune of others - highly=20 unprofessionally but from the heart. At the same time, overwhelmed by = fear as I=20 was, I tried to decipher why what I had read and found so terrifying = seemed also=20 familiar. And eventually I realised that it seemed familiar because I = recognised=20 the matrix of thought: because, in learning about scientific socialism = and other=20 benefits of progressive mankind, I had come to know rather well the type = of=20 thought to which Mr Glotz's statement belongs. This is the caricatural = variant=20 of rationalism known as scientific optimism or scientism, a = pseudo-religious=20 relationship towards the exact sciences. It is the thought which = scientifically=20 proved that the victory of socialism was inevitable; the thought which=20 established a scientific aesthetic, and measured the value of music by = the=20 intensity of glandular reaction to it; the thought which established by=20 scientific methods that South- American Indians were human beings, so = could be=20 given the sacrament of christening (the same would be established = somewhat later=20 for Negroes); the thought which divinised objective, positive, = measurable and=20 transferable (hence, mechanical) Knowledge; the thought which abolished = God, but=20 did not manage to amputate religious experience - so put Knowledge in = God's=20 place.=20

However, it is the destiny of followers to be a parody of those they = follow.=20 What does Sacred Knowledge about the Balkans look like, in the case of = Balkan=20 expert Peter Glotz? Recalling Ranke, Mr Glotz insists that Croats, Serbs = and=20 Dalmatians are a single people, and that Slovenes, Croats and Serbs = speak the=20 same language. I am not a linguist so cannot argue with Mr Glotz with = the aid of=20 Knowledge, but can speak only of my own experience and feelings. These = tell me,=20 for example, that for a long time now the Slovenes have spoken their own = language, which is not like any other language in the world; and that = they would=20 like to keep it for a while longer, if Mr Glotz will permit them to do = so. Of=20 the other peoples who all speak the same language, linguists could say = more than=20 me.=20

At another point in the same text, Peter Glotz first bewildered, then = deeply=20 saddened me. In response to Reichstag deputy Hermann Wendel, Peter Glotz = asserts=20 that the Yugoslavs are one people. He bewildered me because on that = theme I=20 cannot speak - I am so ignorant that I simply do not have a position. I = know=20 that the links between the communities in this area are rather strong = and=20 numerous. I know that, in any highly complex structure, stressing the=20 differences between the parts seems as dangerous as stressing the = structure's=20 unity (I know this from literature). I know that a maniacal insistence = on unity=20 destroyed the First Yugoslavia and provoked a conflict between its = communities=20 during World War II. I know that the maniacal insistence on differences = which I=20 have witnessed also strikes me as dangerous, because honouring and = preserving=20 differences with respect to your neighbour provincializes, imprisons and = exhausts the active energies of your community. I know all that, and it = is what=20 I think. But I really do not know where the border lies, before which = two=20 communities constitute a single people and after which they become two = different=20 peoples.=20

On this theme, I can impart only some experiences and some facts = which I know=20 absolutely. I know, for example, that my father was a Communist who = fought for=20 the Second Yugoslavia passionately and quite concretely. I know that = after 1945=20 he declared himself in the census as 'nationally undefined' (i.e. = non-existent).=20 He declared himself in that way, because he did not experience as his = own any of=20 the three choices he was offered. He could declare himself nationally as = Serb,=20 as Croat, or as Yugoslav -but he stubbornly felt he was some fourth = thing. My=20 father fought for Yugoslavia and cannot have been anti-Yugoslav. There = were two=20 million people like him in Yugoslavia. Nationally, they felt they were = Bosniaks.=20 My father was born in 1917, two years before the First Yugoslavia. He = was a=20 convinced Yugoslav, yet till late in his life he had to register as = 'nationally=20 undefined': in other words, nationally non-existent.=20

I know another indisputable fact. I know that, in the course of the = current=20 war, 200,000 of those who nationally could not help feeling they were = Bosniaks=20 have been killed. They were killed solely because nationally they could = not feel=20 otherwise.=20

I know another indisputable fact. I know that in World War II, and = again in=20 the current one, very many people died feeling themselves to be Serbs, = Croats,=20 Bosniaks, Montenegrins, or Slovenes. They died mainly because they felt = that=20 way, and because they did not feel they were just Yugoslavs. I also know = that in=20 this area nine million people feel Serb, four and a half million feel = Croat, two=20 million feel Bosniak, over 600,000 feel Montenegrin... Many hundreds of=20 thousands of them have been killed and maimed, and all this could = perhaps have=20 been avoided had they felt just Yugoslav. When I realised this I felt = deeply=20 saddened. 'God', I thought, 'how much misery could have been avoided, if = people=20 had only read more of Peter Glotz and Die Zeit, for whom it is = all so=20 clear because it is all so simple!'=20

I repeat that I do not belong to those who glorify differences and = keep=20 insisting on them at the expense of similarities. I repeat that I do not = know=20 for sure what a people is, what the difference is between a people and a = nation,=20 or where the border lies after which a cultural community becomes a = people. I=20 repeat that I have never felt a strong sense of belonging to any = particular=20 community, and that I am a person with weak political convictions. = Nevertheless,=20 the aggressive self- confidence with which Peter Glotz explains all = perplexities=20 and solves all problems offends me deeply.=20

I am, at the same time, awed and highly impressed by the serene = dignity with=20 which Peter Glotz rejects any possible influence on his thought. He does = not=20 allow the Balkan people to tell him what he should think, and patiently = explains=20 to them that they are all the same. He does not permit facts to = influence his=20 thought, and refuses even to look at the map, so that in the text we are = talking=20 about he discovers that Knin has 800,000 inhabitants. For Balkan = conditions,=20 this is a metropolis. By virtue of Peter Glotz's decision, Knin becomes = the=20 third largest Balkan city!=20

Yet it all began innocently, almost lyrically - I mean my desire to = acquaint=20 myself with the life and thought of Peter Glotz. On 10 February 1994 I = was=20 watching the 'Live' programme on ZDF: a talk-show on Bosnia, ten days = before the=20 NATO ultimatum to the besiegers of Sarajevo expired. Peter Glotz, of = course, was=20 appearing on the programme, and at one point he stated (I quote): 'And = here I=20 question the idyll of a common Bosnian state' ['Und da stelle ich in = Frage die=20 Idylle des gemeinsamen bosnisches Staates']. My attention was drawn to = the word=20 'idyll'. In an essay written long ago, I attempted to explain kitsch as = a=20 signifying or mental structure in which reality is represented = (experienced)=20 either as horror or as idyll. In the idea and experience of kitsch- = sensibility,=20 the world is either like an Arnold Schwarzenneger film, all bursting = with=20 violence and horror 'in the pure state', or it is like a happy love = story=20 between a shepherdess and a shepherd. Kitsch-sensibility is not capable = of=20 understanding - hence, of articulating - a complex polyphonic structure, = which=20 exists (among other things) precisely because of the tension between the = various=20 sounds composing the structure. A serious drama, for example, in which = different=20 characters are used to articulate different perspectives, different=20 relationships, different possible ways of seeing and participating, = within a=20 single whole or in relation to a single work. Or the cultural = environment, the=20 environment of everyday life, in Bosnia: an environment constituted by = four=20 'voices', four possible ways of participating in one thing. The drama = consists=20 precisely in the tension which inevitably appears in the encounter = between=20 different views on the same thing; if the differences between these = views are=20 not preserved, the characters are lost, their autonomy and relative = completeness=20 are lost, the tension is lost. In other words, the drama is lost - to be = replaced by a kitsch- structure in which all are identical and = everything is the=20 same. Everything is either pure violence or pure goodness; people are = all either=20 more or less effective wielders of violence, or else shepherds full of = love and=20 goodness, differentiated only by gender. That is why kitsch-sensibility = cannot=20 produce a serious drama.=20

And that is why kitsch-sensibility cannot understand Bosnia. = Catholics and=20 Jews, Muslims and Orthodox, all mutually different, with their own = identities,=20 yet all together. It cannot be an idyll, because they all have their own = identities with everything implied by that. Nor does this mean they are = all=20 killing each other there in a dreadful, brutal manner, just like in a = horror=20 movie. How to explain that it is precisely the fact that each cultural = community=20 in Bosnia preserves its own identity -precisely the fact that four = voices, with=20 all their mutual differences, come together in one whole - which creates = the=20 tension upon which a unity can be established, in which the parts are = not=20 mechanically fused, yet are linked in a productive dialogue? How to = convince=20 someone that Bach did compose music, even though what he composed is = unsuitable=20 for marching, or for seducing shepherdesses? Don't bother, you can't = convince=20 somebody with kitsch-sensibility. And thank God for that.=20

The Bosnian idyll called into question by Peter Glotz drew my = attention to=20 the speaker, and sentimentally reminded me of my early works on kitsch. = I was=20 intrigued and made happy by this man who linked Bosnia and idyll. In all = my long=20 years, nothing like that had ever occurred to me - nor, so far as I = know, to=20 anybody else. For everyone, Bosnia has always been a domain of tension, = a domain=20 in which four cultural communities with their identities and their = differences=20 have built a wider community, filled with tensions, inherently = polemical, but=20 also filled with dialogue and understanding. All in all a community, a = symphonic=20 unity which is a whole, even if not a mechanical whole. A community of = the very=20 kind that has existed more or less happily (mainly less, but that is = another=20 theme) since the early 16th century: since the arrival of the Jews = expelled in=20 1492 from Spain. Never as idyll, very rarely and relatively briefly (in = World=20 War II, for example, or in the current war) as horror. So, very rarely=20 understandable to Glotz. Yes, what is now happening in Bosnia is = hellish, but=20 that does not prove Bosnia to be impossible. It proves only that fine, = complex=20 structures are fragile in the face of mechanical force. You can destroy = a brain=20 with a hammer, but you cannot destroy a hammer with a brain: that is all = that=20 the current events in Bosnia serve to prove. How to convince Glotz that = five=20 centuries last longer than three years, and that laws are based on what = lasts=20 for centuries?=20

A little later in the same programme, Mr Glotz said: 'And now I quote = today's=20 Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. There Ivo Andric, the Nobel = laureate,=20 writes in 1920, i.e. quite independently from our debates today, about = the=20 rhythms of Orthodox, Catholic, Muslim and Jewish clocks - about how the = churches=20 sound there...' ['Und jetz zitiere ich dei FAZ von heute. Da schreibt = Ivo=20 Andric, der Nobelpreistr=E4ger, im Jahre 1920, also vollig unbeeinflusst = von=20 unseren heutigen Debatten , dar=FCber, wie also die Stundenrhythmen der=20 Orthodoxen, der Katholiken, der Muslime, der Juden - wie die Kirchen = dort=20 l=E4uten...']. Managing, from the thematic description and the year = mentioned by=20 the speaker, to work out what he was talking about, I realised that of = the=20 points made in Mr Glotz's statement one is certainly true, one possibly = true,=20 and all the rest untrue. It is true that Andric was a Nobel laureate, it = is=20 possibly true that Mr Glotz read FAZ on 10 February 1994, but everything = else is=20 the kind of muddle of which only a Balkan expert like Peter Glotz is = capable:=20 semi- informed about a few things, self-confident, and aggressively = ready to=20 explain something he has half-heard somewhere. What is the whole thing = about?=20

From Mr Glotz's description, the text in question could be Andric's = short=20 story 'Letter from the Year 1920'. For that story does indeed speak = about the=20 'clock rhythms' of Bosnia's religious communities, and its title also = includes=20 the year which so enthused Mr Glotz. The story was not written in 1920, = but=20 shortly after World War II - in 1947, if I remember correctly. This is = the=20 beginning of the Second Yugoslavia, a time in which politics (but also = common=20 sense, for Heaven's sake) demanded not just of literature, but of all = human=20 activities, that they should articulate the fatal danger of glorifying=20 differences or reducing all relations between the Yugoslav peoples to a = mere sum=20 of differences: a time when the foundations of a new unity were being = laid. (The=20 nature of that unity - and how unfortunate it was that the unity was not = of a=20 different kind - is a theme for another occasion.) 1920 was the first = year of=20 the First Yugoslavia. Knowledge of the basic facts of Andric's biography = and the=20 basic elements of his literary technique would have sufficed for an = intelligent=20 reader to realise why Andric placed this year in the title of his story. = As any=20 such reader would have understood, it was a covert polemic against the = new=20 regime's conviction that it represented a point of rupture; that with it = had=20 begun a qualitatively new era; that it had made possible the leap from = zero to=20 one - i.e. from non-existence to existence. I cannot, unfortunately, = explain=20 here all the implications of the fact that the story 'Letter from the = Year 1920'=20 was written immediately after World War II. I mention this fact only to=20 illustrate yet again how well informed Mr Glotz is; how capable he is of = reading=20 and of understanding what he reads. He sees a year in the title, and = assumes=20 that the text was written in that year. He reads the word 'Letter' in = the title,=20 and assumes that the text is indeed a letter. He reads the sentence: = 'That=20 difference is always akin to hatred', and assumes that this is lived = experience=20 and the author's final judgement.=20

Peter Glotz has the right to be ill educated, but as a career = politician he=20 does not have the right to be ill informed. He ought to know to what = genre the=20 text he quotes belongs; he ought to know that Knin does not have 800,000 = inhabitants; he ought to know that Slovenes have a separate language. It = would=20 be desirable, though not obligatory, for him to know what I shall now = explain to=20 him, without any ironical intention. So-called fabulative literary forms = contain=20 also text spoken by their characters. In order to be able to understand = fully=20 these textual passages, and the work as a whole, we must take into = account which=20 character, at which moment, and for which purpose, is speaking what we = are=20 reading. When I say 'which character', I am thinking of his fate in the = text,=20 his personality, his momentary situation, his relationship to the = character he=20 is addressing, etc. (in other words, all that the concept of character = implies).=20 In texts of this kind, statements never refer directly to reality = outside the=20 work. So it would be wrong to conclude that Goethe was a necrophiliac, = though=20 his character in the drama Faust did show certain predilections = for the=20 deceased Helen. All this, and much more, has been explained by a man = (now=20 unfortunately dead) called Aristotle: you can find out about all these = confusing=20 matters from his work 'The Art of Poetry'.=20

This short lesson means that the statements in 'the letter' allegedly = 'quoted' from the story 'A Letter from the Year 1920' cannot be ascribed = to=20 Andric. They can be understood only if it is also understood that they = were=20 'written' by a character (of what kind? with what fate? at what = moment?), on the=20 basis of experience acquired at a time 'prior to the establishment of = unity';=20 and that he is addressing them, in a certain psychological situation (of = what=20 kind?), to somebody (to whom?). A story cannot be quoted as a source of=20 political information -even high political functionaries should know = this much.=20 Bertrand Russell once suggested that schools should teach how to read = newspapers=20 with suspicion. After the experience I have acquired during my year of = exile of=20 how literature is read, I would suggest an even stranger subject that = would be=20 called Basic Theories of Literature.=20

Or are we, in fact, dealing with something quite different? It is = possible=20 that even Peter Glotz would be bewildered if I were to make judgements = about the=20 Thirty Years' War on the basis of Kleist's Michael Kohlhaas = (even=20 though the story's subtitle says it is 'From an Old Chronicle'). But = that is=20 quite another matter, of course: do I have the right to behave like = Peter=20 Glotz?! (Thank the Lord, to be frank, that I do not have that right.) = And just=20 where do I get the crazy idea from, that somebody so powerful has to be = correct=20 towards Bosnia and even accept that literature is written there which = has to be=20 read as literature? Or are we not dealing with something completely = different:=20 i.e. with a type of thought in which we are imprisoned, and which is = precisely=20 our experience of the world and ourselves in that world (rather than = just a mere=20 technology of cerebral labour)?=20

I think this is indeed what we are dealing with: a type of thought = that=20 determines us as closely and inescapably as our own skin. I do not = believe that=20 Enzensberger would willingly laugh at his own verses, nor do I believe = that=20 Peter Glotz would willingly make people who are able to think logically = laugh at=20 his expertise. I do not believe that they refuse to know = anything about=20 what they teach to humanity. I believe that they fail to know = it -=20 because they are prevented by a model of thought that determines their = very=20 ability to know.=20

I believe that the basic principles of this type of thought are = revealed very=20 clearly in the examples I have given above, demonstrating what kind of = thought=20 we are dealing with. Those basic principles are: 1. what I do not = understand=20 does not exist; 2. the Other is not actually real, the Other is my = notion of=20 him; 3. everything which is not I - which I have not adopted and made = part of my=20 image of the world - is, and can be, only an object; 4. naked = mechanistic power=20 is the sole criterion of truth, goodness and beauty. These principles = and this=20 type of thought we know very well from the European tradition. They = created the=20 foundations and alibis for Europe's colonial conquests, articulating the = truth=20 that the English had to conquer India in order to civilise it, and that = North=20 American Indians and Australian Aborigines were thrilled to bits = (literally to=20 bits) by similar civilising missions. They have created a spiritual = ambience in=20 which it is normal to produce nuclear weapons, and to conduct the most = morbid=20 genetic experiments as innocently as if selling Christmas cards. In = other words,=20 they have expunged ethics and metaphysics as irrelevant, since God and = ethics=20 stubbornly refuse to be mechanical phenomena. They have articulated the = concept=20 of ethical neutrality, ascribing it first to the exact sciences and then = to all=20 other human activities.=20

I do not, of course, think that Messrs Enzensberger and Glotz are = responsible=20 for all that I have described here, nor have I described it on their = account.=20 But, demonstrating precisely this type of thought, they spoke about = something=20 which constitutes my fate, so concerns me deeply. Bewildered, worried = and=20 dismayed I tried to understand what was going on, because I had believed = that=20 multiculturalism, openness and polyphony had freed Europe from = vulgar-mechanical=20 thought. I really did think that, in the new Europe, only a minority = believed=20 they possessed more truth, goodness and beauty because they had more = money and=20 weapons; and that because they have more money and weapons they can = decide about=20 life and death. Believing that Europe had articulated the concept of a = unity=20 higher than the mechanical one, I asked myself if I were mad because I=20 remembered my life the way I had lived it, and thought about my home in = the way=20 I did. This is why I felt the need, indeed the necessity, to question = myself=20 about what others were explaining to me about me. Messrs Enzensberger = and Glotz=20 were not accidentally chosen - they are very characteristic. They are, = in fact,=20 part of the Establishment, as are so many of those who try to tell me = how I=20 lived. Karl May was an outsider, just as many of those who treat me as a = real=20 person are. Was Karl May able to talk about us Indians with so much = affection=20 and understanding precisely because he was an outsider, or did he remain = an=20 outsider because he loved and understood us Indians? =

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C1EDEC.38EB6420-- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: brought into a mosque in which he has been worshipping Allah; and similarly a Hindu cannot tolerate that someone should destroy the temple where he has all along been worshipping Ram, Krishna, Shankara, Vishnu or Devi, and build a mosque there. Where ever these have occurred are in reality a sign of slavery (dharmika ghulaami). It would be proper for Hindus and Muslims to settle amongst themselves the disputes over these sites. Hindus should generously return with the sites of Muslims that are in their possession, similarly the religious places of Hindus that are in Muslim control should be gladly yielded to the Hindus. By this gesture, mutual enmity will be ended, and feeling of unity between Hindus and Muslims will grow, which will be a blessing for a religious country like India." (M.K. Gandhi ) Is this, in any way, substantially different from what the RSS, the VHP, the BJP have been saying ever since the Ayodhya movement began? As late as September 14, 1947, Gandhiji, while addressing a rally of RSS workers in Bhangi Colony, described himself as a 'Sanatani Hindu', applauded the discipline and idealism of the RSS, and said that an organisation which was "rooted in high ideals and public service was bound to grow from strength to strength". The report of this meeting is in the Hindu Newspaper of the 17th of September 1947. I had said in my earlier posting that the RSS in its "pratah smaran pranam" recalls a long list of people it considers Hindu Heroes. A section of the concluding part of this invocation (in Sanskrit) goes like this Dadabhi Gopabhandhu Tilako Gandhiradrita | Ramano Malaviyascha Sri Subramanya Bharati. || Here the people mentioned are - Dadabhai Naoroji, Gokhale, Tilak, Gandhi, Raman ( Dont know if this is CV Raman or Raman Maharshi) , Madan Mohan Malviy and Subramanya Baharati . This is the new and updated version. But if you examine RSS sources carefully, then you get to know that Gandhi's name was not included as an after thought. Even as early as 1946-47, when Gandhi was alive, his name was remembered along with some other living great ones; but later on, the names of the living were dropped and a new set of Stotras brought into usage. The present one is called EkAtmataa Stotra, which includes the above Sloka. Now I am not for a moment suggesting that Gandhi was a Hindu bigot above all else. I see his politics as being caught in a logic of nationalist symbolizing that necessarily requires an address to peoples 'identities' as this or that or the other. The fact that he could on occasion rise above this, as in his intransigence that India pay Pakistan its due from the state exchequer after independence or in his decisions to go to Noakhali in the thick of communal violence, is and will remain exemplary as humanist gestures, that take us momentarily away from the prison that I consider any kind of 'identity' based politics to be. But there is a pattern of a paternalistic assumption of Hindu superiority that cannot be denied in his conscious utterances. His unequivocal defence of the 'Varnashramdharma" (the basis of the Caste System) even as he mitigated against its concrete excesses, his emotional blackmail of Ambedkar vis a vis seperate electorats (whihc is a reality today) for Dalits and his insistence that people be addressed by their religious affiliations would have found ready acceptance in the sophisticated "Hindutva" of the sangh parivar today. Those who deploy Gandhi against communalism always fail, because the Sangh Parivar has its own, equally convincing, equally consistent Gandhi, and these two Gandhi's cancel each other out in a way that makes for hardly dents in edifice of communalism. I am not interested in singling out Gandhi, the entire corpus of Indian Nationalism, has Hindutva woven into it (in soft or hard terms). Thus, it is impossible to see Nehru's "Discovery of India" as anything but a revanchist latter day hindu imperialist imaginary run riot over much of South Asian history, to see Patel and Rajendra Prasad's state sanctioned re building of the Somnath Temple as anything but an anticipation of the Hiundu right's articulation of therAyodhya question, and to see Indira Gandhi's patronage of the VHP orchestrated Ekatmata Yagna in the early 1980s or to see Rajiv Gandhi calling for Ram Rajya as an initiation of an election campaing in Ayodhya as part of a pattern of consolidating a Nationalist agenda that is at base Hindu. Even the comrades, Namboodripad and Nayanar, were once pictured in CPI (M) election posters as Krishna and Arjuna in the midst of an electoral fray sometime in the late 1980s when it became necessary momentarily to eschew secular symbols and appeal a little to rising Malyali Hindu consciousness, and anyone who has spent anyone in West Bengal knows the CPI (M)s patronage of the "Vaidik Marxbad" of the erstwhile Balak Brahmachari's 'Santan Dal'. Forget "Hey Ram", take a close look at any Hindi film. In the end, nationalism, has reminded us again and again, that the hero of the movie of national life in India is a good Hindu boy, and that if you have a muslim name you either have to die saving the nation, as a necessary sacrifice, so that it can be proved that you are a good muslim, or die anyway if you are the bad muslim, when you face the Hindu hero's wrath. Somehow, I feel like seeing a different kind of movie. If there has to be an articulation of a 'secular' alternative to communal violence, I personally cannot see how it can happen, in the long term, within the framework of the ideas of nationalism, national identity, or the nation state. Cheers Shuddha From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: presented and argued as blatantly violent crimes committed against the members of the minority community. Not only these cases would stand the test of judicial procedures but would also provide justice to the victims and would lead to the penalization of the perpetrators of crime. These 100 cases could be further sub-divided into 3 categories. a. 20 major cases. By major cases what is meant is that they are gruesome in method and content where more than 50 people were massacred mercilessly. This also would include mass rape of women, b. 10 large cases. These cases are equally gruesome in nature but were killing has been less than 50. Here individual rape cases will be included, c. 70 minor cases. These cases include individual incidents. All these cases have to be prepared, presented and argued in the following manner: a. About 5 full time lawyers are to be engaged to take care of the major cases. Thus each lawyer will have only 4 cases to see through them to their logical conclusion. b. About 5 trial lawyers are to be engaged to deal with the cases on the day to day basis, c. 10 para-legal experts are to be engaged to deal with all the cases, prepare the cases, present them to the lawyers, follow them up in the court etc. Budget 1. Preparation of 100 cases 100 pages per case @ Rs. 25/- 2,50,000.00 2. Payment to 5 full time lawyers @ Rs. 10,000/- for 18 months 9,00,000.00 3. Payment to 5 trial lawyers @ Rs. 10,000/- for 12 months 6,00,000.00 4. Payment to 10 paralegal aids @ Rs. 4,000/- for 12 months 4,80,000.00 5. Travel expenses of senior lawyers 2,00,000.00 6. Research study about the cases to support the argument 2,50,000.00 7. Capital cost like computer, stationary, photocopying, telephone etc 2,50,000.00 8. Administrative and coordinating cost 2,00,000.00 Total 31,00,000.00 [Total estimated expense is thirty-one lakhs] Many people are supporting in many different ways. This is only an estimate. The actual expenses could be less. Yet an appeal is made for financial support. Legal activities will be coordinated in Ahmedabad and Delhi. Cheques should be made out in the name of St.Xavier�s Nonformal Education Society. The Legal aid cell of Aman Ekta Manch has also decided to collect financial support to take care of the Supreme court cases here. Cheques should be made out in the name of Samarthan Trust. These cheques could be reached to : The Other Media B-14 (Second Floor) Gulmohar Park New Delhi 110 049. Phone Nos. 6561743/6514847 Indian Social Institute 10 Institutional Area (Behind Sai Baba Mandir) Lodi Road New Delhi 110 003 Phone Nos. 4622379/4625015 AkhilBharat Rachanatmak Samaj & Harijan Sewak Sangh Gandhi Ashram, Kings Way Camp New Delhi 110 009 Phone No.7434514 ------------------------------------------------------- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 Iyyar 18, 5762 Operation Destroy the Data By Amira Hass It's a scene that is repeating itself in hundreds of Palestinian offices taken over by IDF troops for a few hours or days in the West Bank: smashed, burned and broken computer terminals heaped in piles and thrown into yards; server cabling cut, hard disks missing, disks and diskettes scattered and broken, printers and scanners broken or missing, laptops gone, telephone exchanges that disappeared or were vandalized, and paper files burned, torn, scattered, or defaced - if not taken. And it's all in rooms full of smashed furniture, torn curtains, broken windows, smashed-in doors, walls full of holes, filthy floors and soiled bathrooms. Here and there, the soldiers left obscene graffiti or letters full of hatred, but compared to the data that was destroyed or taken, the insults read like poetry. Even the overflowing toilets look more like human weakness compared to the organized vandalism reflected in the piles of smashed computers. It's not merely the expense of the hardware that has to be replaced. The loss is immeasurable in shekels or dollars. Years of information built into knowledge, time spent thinking by thousands of people working to build their civil society and their future or trying to build a private sector that would bring a sense of economic stability to their country. These are the data banks developed in Palestinian Authority institutions like the Education Ministry, the Higher Education Ministry and the Health Ministry. These are the data banks of the non-governmental organizations and research institutes devoted to developing a modern health system, modern agricultural, environmental protection and water conservation. These are the data banks of human rights organizations, banks and private commercial enterprises, infirmaries, and supermarkets. They all were clearly the targets for destruction in the military operation called Defensive Shield. The Israeli public has been spared the sights of the destruction. Here and there, a photo of some demolished office sneaks into the TV news shows. But Israeli TV news doesn't find a few seconds to report on a Palestinian woman or a child of nine who was shot dead from a distance, inside their homes, by an anonymous Israeli soldier, so how can it find time or reason to report on the crazed destruction perpetrated by a unit of soldiers in one office. The IDF has given up denying that some soldiers looted - money, jewels and video cameras - private homes. That can be explained by officers too weak to impose discipline on their soldiers and by soldiers too weak to fight material temptation. But the systematic destruction of the data banks was not a matter of personal weakness by either officers or soldiers. Let's not deceive ourselves; this was not a mission to search and destroy the terrorist infrastructure. If the forces breaking into every hard disk of every bank and clinic, commercial consultant's office or PA ministry, thought that a list of weapons or wanted men was inside the disk, all they had to do was copy the information and pass it on to the Shin Bet. If they thought incriminating evidence was hidden in the Education Ministry and the International Bank of Palestine and in a shop that rents prosthetics, the soldiers would have examined document after document, and not thrown the files on the floor without opening them. This was not a whim, or crazed vengeance, by this or that unit, nor a personal vandalistic urge of a soldier whose buddies didn't dare stop him. There was a decision made to vandalize the civic, administrative, cultural infrastructure developed by Palestinian society. Was it an explicit order or one given with a wink? Was it an order or was it the result of permission given to soldiers to do what they want? Did the order - or wink - come down from the battalion commander or from the brigadier? Was it from the headquarters of IDF forces in the West Bank or from IDF Operations? Did it come from the general in command of the Central Command or from general headquarters? Either way, the scenes of systematic destruction show how the IDF translated into the field the instructions inherent in the political echelon's policies: Israel must destroy Palestinian civil institutions, sabotaging for years to come the Palestinian goal for independence, sending all of Palestinian society backward. It's so easy and comforting to think of the entire Palestinian society as primitive, bloodthirsty terrorists, after the raw material and product of their intellectual, cultural, social and economic activity has been destroyed. That way, the Israeli public can continue to be deceived into believing that terror is a genetic problem and not a sociological and political mutation, horrific as it may be, derived from the horrors of the occupation. (BWO the Multitudes-info list/ Emmanuel Videcoq) From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: searchlights placed around the Museum�s central Square. Every eight seconds a new design is displayed as it arrives from the Internet. The designs may include participants� names and dedications, which are shown on a large screen in the Square. A web page is also produced automatically to document each participation. Participation is much appreciated, as the work does not exist without it. All the best, Rafael http://www.lozano-hemmer.com http://www.alzado.net From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: sector of today, the media landscape in East Timor has changed significantly since the withdrawal of Indonesian control in 1999. by MARNI CORDELL For almost 500 years, the East Timorese people had little experience of freedom of the press or access to uncensored information. The country was (often neglectfully) ruled by Portugal from the 1500s until 1975 and it was only toward the end of this period, after the socialist revolution in Lisbon, that the media began to critically address the issue of East Timorese independence. However, not long after the Portuguese abandoned the country in 1975, the Indonesian military invaded. During the Indonesian occupation of East Timor, the population was fed a constant and restricted diet of government controlled news and information. In the face of a media operating primarily as propaganda machine, designed and maintained to mislead the international community about what was really going on in the country, an efficient network of clandestine media emerged. The violence and destruction that was carried out by the Indonesian Military and Militia after the historical East Timorese vote for independence on August 30, 1999 left much of the country decimated. The media sector was no exception. The country was left with no functioning broadcasting or printing facilities and the offices of the only daily newspaper, Suara Timor Timur, were burnt to the ground. The Indonesian government installations that had delivered satellite television and radio programming to almost every region of the country were destroyed, and the import of media from Indonesia was also disrupted. In the aftermath of the destruction and after the withdrawal of Indonesian troops, East Timorese journalists, many recently returned from asylum in Kupang and Jakarta, were in high spirits and uniformly committed to building an independent East Timorese media. Journalists from all different backgrounds - student activists and people that had been involved with the creation of underground media, along with professional mainstream journalists - began to organise together to make this happen. In December 1999 discussions began as to how to ensure the future freedom of expression and the press in East Timor. Taking into account lessons learnt from past restrictive governments, journalists were very aware that their newly won 'freedom' would not necessarily be all-encompassing, or forever, and decided that a journalists association was needed in order to guarantee the future integrity of the media. On December 22nd, after a week of post-conflict journalism workshops, the 'Tourismo' declaration was declared - promoting independent, anti-intervened, expression in the development of a democratic and independent media - and the Timor Loro Sa'e Journalists Association (TLJA) was formed. During '99, there was an influx of new print media sources in East Timor - both daily newspapers and weekly magazines - five of which still exist. Others have not survived, mainly due to lack of funding and wages for staff. The former staff of Suara Timor Timur re-organised themselves to produce Suara Timor Lorosa'e, and the weekly tabloid Lalenok was the first and only regular print media source to be completely in the Timorese dialect, Tetum. Traditionally not a written language, Tetum is recognised as being technically 'incomplete', despite being the preferred language of most of the population. Virgilio da Silva Guterres, a founding member of TLJA who was also involved in Lalenok's production, comments on the significance of developing an all-Tetum publication: "Lalenok was very important because it was all in Tetum and one of its main aims was in order for us to train ourselves to write in Tetum, because in the past we'd never really done that. And also we hoped the publication would help to standardise the language." Independent radio also prospered during 1999. During the Indonesian occupation of East Timor a group known as Radio Mubere used a mobile transmitter to illegally broadcast information from the guerrilla independence fighters working in the mountains (Falintil) to the broader population. Radio Mubere was just one node in the complex underground information network that enabled the East Timorese population to withstand their 24-year struggle. When independence was finally won in 1999, some of those involved with Mubere initiated the first East Timorese community radio station in Dili: Radio Falintil. The name Falintil was chosen so that the clandestine history of the station would be recognised. For the population of Dili, who had experienced years of limited access, Indonesian-controlled media, the philosophy of community radio - to give voice to the voiceless - was a very welcome, if abstract, notion. There are now six community radio stations in East Timor; and bound to be more in the near future. In a country with a high degree of illiteracy, the medium is a popular one. Currently however, there are still many rural districts in the country that do not have access to a local media source. In response to this, two of the Dili-based stations: Radio Lorico Lian, and Radio Rakambiah, undertake regular 'roaming broadcasts', in which a group of volunteers take a mobile transmitter to remote villages and allow the population open access broadcasting, to talk about the issues affecting and concerning them. They also teach the local people how to use the radio equipment. A group of programmers also staged a broadcast protest recently in front of the United Nations Transitional Administration office to highlight the issues affecting the remote communities they had visited. Joey Borges, Community Radio Program Officer for Apheda in East Timor was part of the demonstration. He comments: "the government don't like us, they think we are 'radical media' but it's the community that is radical, (we are just giving them a voice.)" Borges, formerly a technician and programmer with both Radio Mubere and Radio Falintil, is currently working, together with the staff and reporters from East Timor's six community stations, to set up a national community radio association to strengthen the philosophy and practice of community radio stations throughout East Timor. Like many of the media sources initiated in �99, Radio Falintil thrived on volunteer energy for a year and a half, but has recently experienced a wane in commitment, with some technicians and reporters leaving on the basis that the station will never be able to provide them with a wage. Sadly, Lalenok also suffered post �99 from lack of volunteers, and was forced to fold a year ago. According to Guterres, two and a half years down the track, many people initially involved in media production in East Timor have now come to the realisation that they could not continue to work as volunteers forever. He comments: "We realised that in a different situation (freedom) you could not treat people in the same way. In the struggle, everyone was united and willing to do anything for nothing. They could forget their personal differences to unite. Now that there is freedom people are willing to contribute but also say: you must understand, I need something to eat. Even volunteers everywhere, they need food. That was one of the mistakes that I confess to. We were wrong to think we could work like that long term." By all accounts, the energy and human resources behind media production in East Timor has certainly receded since 1999, with many people forced to find work in other fields to support themselves. Although some of the print publications in Dili do have paid staff, they receive a minimal amount. Other media sources still struggle to survive on volunteer labour. Without welfare assistance and when living costs are high compared to incomes, volunteer work is not a luxury that many East Timorese can afford to undertake on a long-term basis. The journalist association has also hit hurdles in the last two years. Because most of those involved with initiating TLJA were also active journalists and therefore heavily focussed on creating, developing and professionally maintaining media in the first year of independence, Guterres believes they had no time to sit down and talk about the long, or even short-term, plan of the association. In January 2001, TLJA had their first congress to agree on some long-term objectives. It was at that time that differences began to emerge. Journalists from different backgrounds, all with different levels and concepts of professionalism, began to clash. This divide in interests has since resulted in the emergence of a second journalist association: the East Timor Journalists Union; which two former, founding, members of TLJA have been involved in initiating. Officially, no explanation was given for their break-off. Guterres comments on their departure: "I think its normal, it's a good sign for us that we are free to organise so no-one is forced to stay," but is clearly regretful that the human resources have been diluted even further. With obvious fatigue in his voice he states: "I think it's becoming harder to gather journalists together." On plans for the future: Guterres hopes to re-instigate Lalenok, but this time not without the funds to implement an infrastructure and ensure some staff wages. He is noticeably regretful when he talks about the publication's demise, but his eyes shine as he tells me: "I think we need some tragedies to learn, without mistakes we could not survive. When something happens like that we can learn and in the future we might�still make mistakes, but at least they'll be different ones!" The media landscape in East Timor is very much in development stages. Although TLJA are in the process of developing a training course in conjunction with the University, the country is still lacking effective means to train and support its journalists. Guidance, support and assistance is still needed on many levels in order for it to foster into the critical, independent and democratic sector that it has the very real potential to become. One can only hope, as is so often the case in development situations that the media sector in East Timor does not succumb to the many spurious funding and support sources that it is vulnerable to. Sadly, with the World Bank�s recent plans to initiate and fund a number of new community radio stations in the country, this does remain a possibility. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- www.smallvoices.org From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: 17 May 2002, New Delhi: Digital Opportunity Channel (www.digitalopportunity.org), a Web portal and online community focused on information and communications technologies for global sustainable development, launched here today on UN World Telecommunications Day. Digital Opportunity Channel is a joint initiative of OneWorld (www.oneworld.net), the online sustainable development and human rights network, and the Benton Foundation (www.benton.org), the Washington-based non-profit organization that works to realize the social benefits made possible by the public interest use of information and communications technology (ICT). The visiting Director of OneWorld International Foundation, Anuradha Vittachi, spoke about the merits of the new channel and how it will help narrow the divide between developed and developing communities. �The point is that none of us has to rely just on our own isolated efforts any more. To amplify our power, there is the blendability of the new digital technologies, the multiplying power of networks, the interdependability of human beings - and, most important of all, the boundless power of goodwill.� Coordinated from India, Digital Opportunity Channel has a special emphasis on developing countries. "Developing countries have largely been marginalized in the global dialogue on the benefits and negative impacts of digital technologies,� said Kanti Kumar, channel editor. �Our portal aims to give organizations and community leaders in the South a platform for their voice to be heard, a place where they can work together with colleagues around the world striving to develop smart strategies for using ICT to make a real and lasting difference in the lives of people living in poverty." Digital Opportunity Channel builds on OneWorld's experience of seven years in ICT for development and presents content from OneWorld's worldwide partnership of over 1250 development, human rights and environment NGOs. All these organizations are now using the Internet and other ICT to share knowledge and take action on poverty and human rights or in support of programmes that aim to meet the basic needs of the most disadvantaged peoples in the world. In the current issue of Foreign Policy magazine, UN Secretary General Kofi A. Annan has recommended OneWorld.net as one of his top Web sites, reflecting his belief that "Information and communications technologies are enormously powerful tools for development. One of the most pressing challenges is to harness this extraordinary force, spread it throughout the world, and make its benefits accessible and meaningful for all humanity, in particular the poor." The channel also brings in the invaluable experience of the Benton Foundation's Digital Divide Network (www.digitaldividenetwork.org) in building a community of practitioners, academics, policy leaders and people from ICT industries to help shape a shared responsibility in creating opportunity for all the world's people through appropriate use of emerging technologies. Benton Foundation�s Andy Carvin, co-editor of the new portal, said: "Information about how the digital divide is being addressed in the U.S. and Europe is widely available. However, until now, there has not been a place to gain a global picture and explore the viewpoints, challenges and successes of grassroots communities in around the world. With this channel we aim to fill that gap.� People without access to new information and communications technologies are increasingly excluded from education, healthcare, good governance and the ability to improve their own livelihood. The challenge is to ensure ICT no longer increases the gap between the rich and the poor but becomes an opportunity to help bring greater equality, understanding and solidarity. Digital Opportunity Channel seeks to help tackle this challenge. Available on the Web at www.digitalopportunity.org , the channel will feature news from around the globe, campaign actions, success stories, opinion pieces by leading commentators, in-depth analysis and research, events listings, a beginner's guide to digital divide issues, funding information, email digests and a dedicated search facility on ICT for development. OneWorld is funded for Digital Opportunity Channel by the UK Government Department for International Development ( www.dfid.gov.uk ) and the Netherlands Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Directorate General for International Co-operation www.minbuza.nl/english/ ). The Benton Foundation�s involvement in Digital Opportunity Channel is supported by the AOL Time Warner Foundation ( www.aoltimewarnerfoundation.org ) and the Markle Foundation www.markle.org ). Kanti Kumar Editor, Digital Opportunity Channel OneWorld South Asia Third Floor 17 Panchsheel Commercial Centre Panchsheel Park New Delhi 110 017 Tel: +91-11-6498791, 6498794 Fax: +91-11-6498795 Email: kanti.kumar at oneworld.net Digital Opportunity Channel: http://www.digitalopportunity.org/ OneWorld Home Page: http://www.oneworld.net/ OneWorld South Asia: http://www.oneworld.net/southasia/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.343 / Virus Database: 190 - Release Date: 3/22/02 ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C20023.580E9040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

New Digital Opportunity Web = Initiative To Elevate Voices <= /b>

From = Developing Nations<= /p>

 <= /p>

17 May 2002, New = Delhi: <= /p>

Digital Opportunity Channel (www.digitalopportunity.org), a Web = portal and online community focused on information and communications = technologies for global sustainable development, launched here today on UN World Telecommunications Day.<= /p>

 <= /p>

Digital Opportunity Channel is a joint initiative of OneWorld (www.oneworld.net), the online sustainable development and human rights network, and the Benton Foundation (www.benton.org), the = Washington-based non-profit organization that works to realize the social benefits made = possible by the public interest use of information and communications technology = (ICT). <= /p>

 <= /p>

The visiting Director of OneWorld International = Foundation, Anuradha Vittachi, spoke about the merits of the new channel and how it = will help narrow the divide between developed and developing communities. = “The point is that none of us has to rely just on our own isolated efforts any = more. To amplify our power, there is the blendability of the new digital = technologies, the multiplying power of networks, the interdependability of human = beings - and, most important of all, the boundless power of = goodwill.”

 <= /p>

Coordinated from India, Digital Opportunity Channel has a special emphasis on = developing countries.   = "Developing countries have largely been marginalized in the global dialogue on the = benefits and negative impacts of digital technologies,” said Kanti Kumar, = channel editor.  “Our portal = aims to give organizations and community leaders in the South a platform for their = voice to be heard, a place where they can work together with colleagues around = the world striving to develop smart strategies for using ICT to make a real and = lasting difference in the lives of people living in poverty." = <= /p>

 <= /p>

Digital Opportunity Channel builds on OneWorld's experience of seven years in = ICT for development and presents content from OneWorld's worldwide partnership = of over 1250 development, human rights and environment NGOs. All these = organizations are now using the Internet and other ICT to share knowledge and take = action on poverty and human rights or in support of programmes that aim to meet = the basic needs of the most disadvantaged peoples in the world. = <= /p>

 <= /p>

In = the current issue of Foreign = Policy magazine, UN Secretary General Kofi A. Annan has recommended = OneWorld.net as one of his top Web sites, reflecting his belief that "Information = and communications technologies are enormously powerful tools for = development. One of the most pressing challenges is to harness this extraordinary force, = <= /p>

spread it throughout the world, and make its benefits accessible and meaningful = for all humanity, in particular the poor."<= /p>

 <= /p>

The channel also brings in the invaluable experience of the Benton Foundation's = Digital Divide Network (www.digitaldividenetwork.org) in building a community of practitioners, academics, policy leaders and people from ICT industries = to help shape a shared responsibility in creating opportunity for all the = world's people through appropriate use of emerging technologies. = <= /p>

 <= /p>

Benton Foundation’s Andy Carvin, co-editor of the new portal, said: = "Information about how the digital divide is being addressed in the U.S. and Europe = is widely available. However, until now, there has not been a place to gain = a global picture and explore the viewpoints, challenges and successes of grassroots communities in around the world. With this channel we aim to = fill that gap.”  = <= /p>

 <= /p>

People without access to new information and communications technologies are increasingly excluded from education, healthcare, good governance and = the ability to improve their own livelihood. The challenge is to ensure ICT = no longer increases the gap between the rich and the poor but becomes an opportunity to help bring greater equality, understanding and = solidarity. Digital Opportunity Channel seeks to help tackle this = challenge.<= /p>

 <= /p>

Available on the Web at www.digitalopportunity.org, the channel will feature news from around the globe, campaign actions, = success stories, opinion pieces by leading commentators, in-depth analysis and research, events listings, a beginner's guide to digital divide issues, = funding information, email digests and a dedicated search facility on ICT for development. =

 <= /p>

OneWorld is funded for Digital = Opportunity Channel by the UK Government Department for International = Development  (www.dfid.gov.uk) and the Netherlands Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Directorate General for International Co-operation  = (www.minbuza.nl/english/). = The Benton Foundation’s involvement in Digital Opportunity Channel is = supported by the AOL Time Warner Foundation (www.aoltimewarnerfoundat= ion.org) and the Markle Foundation (www.markle.org).

 

Kanti Kumar<= /p>

Editor, Digital Opportunity Channel

OneWorld South Asia

Third Floor

17 Panchsheel Commercial Centre

Panchsheel Park

New Delhi 110 017

Tel: +91-11-6498791, 6498794

Fax: +91-11-6498795

Email: kanti.kumar at oneworld.net

 

Digital Opportunity Channel: http://www.digitalopportunity.org/=

OneWorld Home Page: http://www.oneworld.net/

OneWorld South Asia: http://www.oneworld.net/south= asia/

 

 <= /p>

------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C20023.580E9040-- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: wildlife have been pushed to the brink of extinction and the North East is no exception. In the tiny state of Tripura despite the presence of legislations, a species of rare turtle is being sold openly in the markets, which the experts feel may lead to near extinction of the species in the days to come. The apathy of the wild life officials is also largely responsible for the large scale killings of the turtles which is found only in the Indian rivers. The species is called, Gangetic turtle (In Bangla - Kwatta) and scientifically called as the Trionyx gangeticus, belonging to the Sub-class Anapsida and family Chelonidae in the class Reptilia. Though called Gangetic turtles, but the species is quite prevalent in the rivers like Brahmaputra, Barak and besides in good number in the rivers of South Tripura and adjoining Bangladesh. The three main markets of Agartala viz. Maharajganj bazaar, Battala and Tulashibati bazaar have been witnessing regular sale of the turtles, whose flesh are sold at a price as high as Rs 300- 400 a kg. And if the turtles are gravid ones, the higher the prices. At an average, the three markets accounts for over 60 turtles per week. If the whole state is taken into account, the number will definitely be over hundred as the same has been recorded in Belonia, Sabroom, Udaipur besides other places in the interiors. Wild life experts feel, the ignorance of the public has been the major factor behind the killings of the species. Some believes, the heart which keeps on beating even after half an hour of the slaughter helps strengthen the weak heart. But the fallacies related to it has been taking the toll of the hapless species. This particular species of turtles was included as a Scheduled -I species way back in September 03, 1977, under the Wild Life Protection Act, 1972. Under this Act, a person is liable to be prosecuted with imprisonment and fine if found guilty of killing the scheduled animals. It is also included under the Red Data Book of International Union of Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources (IUCN). Most of the turtles and tortoises fall under the same category. When contacted, some says, the particular species are smuggled from the neighbouring districts of Comilla, Noakhali and Chittagong in Bangladesh and so the State Government or the Centre has nothing to do with it. But the fact is that, even it is smuggled into the state from Bangladesh it is likely to fall under another legislation called as Trade Restrictions Against Flora and Fauna in Commerce (TRAFFIC). Prof. Roy Choudhury, belonging to MBB College and also an ardent wild life activist said, though a few years back Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA) had worked on it but gradually it faded away with time. As a result the species may become extinct any time if immediate measures are not taken. "What concerns the most are the way they are mercilessly butchered and brought to the markets with their legs stitched with steel wires" he observes. "Besides, the turtles are an important community in the eco-system as it occupies the summit of the food chain. A slight disturbances in the food chain may damage the entire chain of events "Prof. Choudhury observes. ________________________________________________________________________ Everything you always wanted to know about cars and bikes,now at: http://in.autos.yahoo.com/cricket/tracker.html From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: http://www.economist.com/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=456039 Few Economist indicators are as often cited as our Big Mac index, which uses hamburger prices as an index of currency parity. In the same spirit, we wondered how the globe looks when viewed through the bottom of a Coca-Cola bottle. It turns out that fizzy mass-market stuff-ie capitalism-is good for you. Oddly, a list of the top 12 Coke consumers shows no discernible pattern-unless you see what Iceland has in common with Aruba. Probe a little deeper, however, and patterns emerge. For one, there is a loose but clear positive relationship between Coke consumption and wealth-perhaps not surprisingly. Even clearer is the relationship between cola and an index developed by the United Nations to show general quality of life (as measured by wealth, education, health and literacy). Coke consumption takes off at the upper end of the development scale. Finally, democracy goes better with Coke. Consumption rises with political freedom, as measured by Freedom House 's seven-point scale. Have a cola, North Korea Copyright � 2002 The Economist Newspaper and The Economist Group. 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------=_NextPart_000_01AB_01C20E43.80DF22E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="ccoke0.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ccoke0.gif" R0lGODlhFwPTAff/AP///wgICFpSUlIxMa1jY3tCQr1jY61aWs5jY71aWoxCQmspKYQxMSkICG From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: finally, to the panchayats. Eight days later, they came back to Delhi to write a report that is an explosive testament of false promises. Let�s start with Indira Awaas Yojana, under which those below the poverty line receive �construction assistance� of Rs 20,000 if they live in the plains and Rs 25,000, if they live in the hills. IAY guidelines are clear that the beneficiary should either be women, or the loan should be made out jointly, to husband and wife. In almost every single case, across India, the beneficiary is a man. In Tirunelveli district, in Tamil Nadu, the team found houses under Indira Awaas so badly constructed that the �beneficiaries� had not moved in. They found similar empty shells built, but unused, in Godhra in Gujarat, and in Bastar in Chhattisgarh. They begin by describing IRDP, or the Integrated Rural Development Programme, as the �single largest anti-poverty programme in India (which) has been an instrument for directly attacking poverty to bring all-round prosperity in rural areas�. IRDP works by identifying those who live below the poverty line (BPL) and then giving them BPL cards. Assistance is then given to the poor once they produce their cards. That�s the idea, at least on paper. The team found that, in fact, very few BPL cards have been issued. And after visiting village after village, they have little choice but to conclude that the �concept of the poorest of the poor is not correctly followed (and) a major chunk of the benefit is being drawn by the creamy layer.� Who is this creamy layer? Is it only the socially advantaged sections of rural society? Not always. In Bhagalpur, in Bihar, they found that the Block Development Officer of Jagdishpur has made away with a considerable sum of money. This wouldn�t hurt so much if it wasn�t paired with another statistic. About Rs 18 crore is sitting in government bank accounts in Bhagalpur, money meant to be spent for eight national-level schemes. In this, Bhagalpur is not alone. Under the descriptive title �Huge Closing Balance�, the report lists 13 districts as worst offenders. Some DRDAs have been creative about not spending money meant for the rural poor. They have put the cash into fixed deposits. The DRDA in Sangrur, for instance, has invested Rs 15 lakh in FDs, for that rainy day in the not-too-distant future. Except it rains every day when you are a BPL card-holder. Others have obfuscated the trail by creating multiple bank accounts: 123 accounts for an IRDP project in Udaipur, 60 for a similar project in Bundi. Across the country, almost all have transferred money from one scheme to another, repeatedly. How have they got away with it? Just 4 pages into their report, the team says �the monitoring of various schemes at DRDA is so poor that it has lost its significance�. Strong words, from a team of government accountants. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Japan's youth should avoid assimilation into cultural imperialism My dear Edward Said, On New Year's Day, I participated as a commentator in Tokyo in a debate on satellite television by some youths in America and their counterparts in Islamic countries. One of the students in New York eloquently advocated the role of world police by ``the most powerful and richest democratic country.'' His point was that all the problems would be solved if ``we'' taught democracy to ``those'' who are less advanced. A girl student in Cairo clearly described the variety among Islamic countries and the anger against America shared by each of them. She also sent a message to the self-righteous American student: ``Read Edward Said's books instead of those propagandized by the mass media.'' Since the 11th of September you have intensively written penetrating articles that are all enduring as well as relevant to the times. They are going to be collected and published in this country. Together with them, I hope, my countrymen will also read ``Culture and Imperialism,'' of which a superb Japanese translation was published last summer (both by the Misuzu Shobo publishing house). The time has already come in which cultures are all ``hybrid, heterogeneous, extraordinarily differentiated, and unmonolithic.'' At such a time, why should the cultural and the national identity of Americans combine to rule the world with the use of massive violence? This was the question you raised, soon after the end of the Persian Gulf War. However, in the middle of the war in Afghanistan, Japan readily volunteered to be assimilated into the cultural imperialism of America, with mixed hope and anxiety. It seems that the sometime Japan bashing by the West has visibly subsided; and, as the course they will take in the 21st century, Japan and the Japanese, at the nadir of their disorientated economy, have chosen to follow in the wake of America with its unitary and monolithic political and cultural identity. The prime minister, who promptly expressed his unqualified wish to take part in the aggressive policies of the Bush administration and thereby gradually nullified the resisting constitutional power of Japan against warfare, is enjoying enormous popularity in wide-ranging sectors of the nation. Nevertheless, I am still hoping that the youths of Japan will learn wisdom and courage from your works and never assimilate themselves into the bizarre political and cultural situation brought about by the Afghan war. I hope they will be able ``to think concretely and sympathetically, contrapuntally, about others than only about `us.''' When you first came to Japan in the summer of 1995, I had the privilege of being your interlocutor in the officially published dialogue. I took the opportunity to have you autograph my copy of ``Culture and Imperialism.'' We have since met many a time, but I have somehow failed to tell you, my dear Said, that your book gave me the incentive to resuscitate myself as a novelist. By the time of our reunion in Tokyo in 1995, I had publicly announced that I would give up writing novels. I was then devoted only to reading. My crisis was made more serious by the fact that my lifelong friend and spiritual guide, the composer Toru Takemitsu, was dying of cancer. I gave up writing novels after a long deliberation. I then felt that my way of writing had deviated from its original principle and intent and had gone astray into a maze: the materials of my novels had become too much involved with my own life, on the one hand, and, on the other, with esoteric mysticism. If I had kept on writing that way, my novels would have lapsed into perverted confessions of faith. In such a state of mind I received the Nobel Prize in Stockholm, feeling it to be a kind of burden. Whenever I was in the company of Takemitsu during my youth, I tended to create monologues most of the time. He suddenly enlightened me with a precise solution: It was just like a composer hitting upon the exact notation for which there could be no other alternative. That bliss was leaving me forever. In such a predicament, I was reading your ``Culture and Imperialism.'' I was reading it partly to intensify my criticism against myself for not sufficiently confronting history and reality. At the same time, I now remember, my literary yearning was being satisfied by your fully genial ways of reading a whole variety of novels. After the death of Takemitsu, I spent a long time writing ``Toru Takemitsu's Elaborations'' to make up for his loss. I also made up my mind to make a fresh start by elaborating my own method of writing novels. For my support and stay, I had not only the word ``laborate'' but also others uniquely re-defined by you concerning intellectuals and their morals-those intellectuals who are sufficiently independent while deeply rooted in society. In re-reading ``Culture and Imperialism'' in my native language, I become keenly aware that, written some 10 years ago, it can be an exact analysis of present-day Japan and Japanese. The Japanese are now willingly accepting the rule by cultural imperialism or unification of the cultural and national identity, which engulfed America at the time of the Gulf War and has been reiterated and reinforced in America throughout the war in Afghanistan. It also means Japan's envisagement of her identity with the world other than Islamic countries. Certainly the Afghan Reconstruction Conference in Tokyo was held for all-important motives. But the high-ranking Japanese officials, with the exception of the Government Delegate Madam Sadako Ogata, looked as if they were celebrating the war victory in the presence of the Secretary of State Mr. Powell. Did this not have a bearing on the fact that, although temporarily, the Japanese government barred from the conference the delegates of two NGOs who had seen the dubious battle with their own eyes? The tone of my letter has become grim. And yet I find hope in the emerging new breed of young intellectuals who can raise their effectual voice of dissent against the united cultural imperialisms of America and Japan. I mean, for instance, the women members of the said NGOs and of even smaller respective groups of volunteers who are proficient in telecommunication techniques; and also those youths in the southern islands of Okinawa that house the military bases for the war in Afghanistan. Those Okinawans are trying to establish a network with ``them'' or ``not us'' and are receiving less and less attention from inhabitants of mainland Japan. I am not certain-perhaps nobody is-whether humankind can surmount the current crisis without being integrated into the imperialism (not only cultural but overall imperialism) of one great nation. But suppose we can. Then it will no doubt be by ``them'' or those diverse people, whether the volunteers of the NGOs or the Okinawans, that a spatial and temporal sphere could be created in which the humankind will lead a genuinely humane life in the 21st century. With warmest wishes, Yours ever, Kenzaburo Oe. (Translated into English by Hisaaki Yamanouchi from the Japanese original.) ?????? From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Indiscriminate hostility makes Muslims enemies of the state Dear Oe-san: I must say first of all how honored I am by this exchange of letters with you. As one of the world's great writers, you are also a sensitive witness to the travails of our time, particular those that concern Japan, an extraordinary country that seems to embody more intractably than most, the contradictions, the ups and downs of modernity and tradition, war and peace, dependence and audacity, empire and its loss. No one has written more profoundly about these matters in the context of what I would call Japan's worldliness, that is, its place in the historical and secular world, than you, and your first letter to me is a perfect instance of what I mean about your work. If in the end you raise questions of an almost epochal seriousness-several of which I cannot answer here-then that too has been your style, to pose stark alternatives against each other without prettification, for example, between empire and victimhood, or between memory and future directions. We must face them, you say courageously. For that I am deeply grateful, as I am also for the consideration that you give to my own work. I have now lived in the United States for 51 years, having come here from the Arab world (Egypt and pre-1948 Palestine) when I was a schoolboy aged 15. It was a momentous move for me, full of unhappy dislocation, a sense of loss, and great difficulty getting used to a place that was totally different from the warm (in both senses of the word) environment of Arab society. After slowly getting used to America, getting all my education here, and then finding a job teaching at Columbia University (I began in 1963 and I am still a member of the faculty), I find myself feeling like a lost stranger all over again. The other day a friend asked me, ``What does it feel like to be the enemy?'' which is something that every Arab or Muslim American that I know feels: We are the officially designated enemies of a nation whose president committed himself publicly to a war against evil, on an apocalyptic level and scale unknown to previous history. The war against Afghanistan was fought against the Taliban and al-Qaida, both of whom are unlamented in defeat; but it is still a noteworthy fact that two of the officially designated members of the ``axis of evil'' are Muslim states, one of them Arab, and that the only countries since the Vietnam War that the U.S. has waged all-out war against are Muslim countries, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, whose complete destruction was desired, if not totally achieved. The media here has ceaselessly pursued ``terrorism'' and ``radical or militant Islam'' with such insistence and such indiscriminate hostility as to have made us all into enemies of the state, a state acting on behalf of righteousness and good with, it would seem, a mandate from God. Arab and Muslim Americans are routinely challenged by police, airline attendants, security officials because of the way they look, and even because of the language they speak or read. A plane-traveling friend of mine was recently asked to put away his Arabic newspaper because, the attendant said, it was ``disturbing'' other passengers. Understandably enough, Americans fear for their security after the atrocities of Sept. 11, but ``evil'' can't be localized so easily and found to be emanating only from the non-Atlantic world. Who can forget Herman Melville's character Captain Ahab in Moby Dick, the greatest American novel, in relentless, crazy pursuit of the white whale that has become his monomaniacal obsession as the personification of evil? For the first time in my life I find it next to impossible to read The New York Times or watch the network television news: both seem driven in their reporting and commentary by a patriotic attitude that essentially supports the war, increased defense spending (raised to an unprecedented level), and the projection of U.S. power, with the ability to fight a war everywhere in the world. I myself have always opposed religious politics and have strongly condemned wanton and suicidal violence, and I have done so not only in English but in the Arab world in Arabic. And yet I feel that the hostility toward and misunderstanding of ``Islam'' (which is a useless description for 1.3 billion people who come from innumerable traditions, use hundreds of different languages, and possess every variety of diversified culture) have enveloped whole portions of the globe, especially in Europe and the U.S., so that everything has been boiled down reductively to a few caricatures of a whole culture and religion in order to sustain an attitude of the most profound bellicosity and to drag a huge body of Americans, unthinkingly and uncritically, into supporting that attitude. Some of the arguments used to keep Americans at war are, for instance, that Islam is enraged; or, Islam has not had a Reformation and needs one now; or, something has gone wrong with the Islamic world; or, finally, that Islam is a militant and violent religion. The result has been to make the complex, dynamic interaction of peoples, cultures and traditions a simple oppositional matter, rather in the (basically) mindless and simplified way advocated by Samuel Huntington in his ``The Clash of Civilizations'' on the one hand, and, on the other, to blind Americans to what their nation or culture is in fact doing. This is strikingly reminiscent of the rhetorical war between the U.S. and Japan during World War II, described by John Dower. But, that was soon over and replaced for a time with Japan-bashing that occurred while Japan's power grew so remarkably in the 1970s and after. Hostility between Islam and the West is a much older one. It goes in both directions, of course, but with the enormous asymmetry of power favoring the U.S., it is a far more disturbing and destructive exchange. What I would underline in such a situation is the ever-increasing importance of understanding and criticism, both of which are the essence of citizenship and democracy. My impression is that what has overtaken America is a wave of triumphal patriotism, much of it of course stemming from the shock of the atrocities of Sept. 11. Yes, it is completely understandable for the United States to have responded to the attacks, but that response has been overlain with a kind of metaphysical language justifying unilateralism abroad while preventing discussion and criticism at home. Thus President Bush speaks of a crusade in one breath, of an axis of evil in another, whereas what we are talking about (in the terms of history and reality that you so eloquently invoke in your letter to me) is American power on such an unprecedented scale as to grind down the rest of the world and say, as Bush does continually, you're either with us or you're for terrorism. No one has defined terrorism adequately even though the whole world seems to be mobilized to fight against it, Japan included, as you very accurately say. The U.N. spent several years in the mid-1970s debating the meaning of the term, and was unsuccessful in finding a common, all-encompassing definition. The problem is that, used without qualification as a concept merely to identify what one doesn't like, or something evil that has been done, or an official enemy, the word ``terrorism'' can also obscure what may be an act of resistance, or of desperation caused by a preponderance of power that is both heedless and destructive. I agree that what bin Laden did, and what his followers advocate, are terroristic because they call for the indiscriminate killing of innocent people and a false divide of the world simplistically into his enemies and his allies. What madness this is, and what a misrepresentation not only of Islam but of the complexity of human history. But I think it is especially wrong to use the word ``terrorism'' uniformly (as General Sharon does) whenever Palestinians strike back at Israel. If one were to say, as Sharon and George Bush repeatedly do, that Palestinian suicide-bombings are terrorism-I myself find them unacceptable-and then demand that Yasser Arafat should stop Palestinian violence altogether, the context is entirely missed, which is that Israel has been in an illegal military occupation of Palestinian territory for 35 years, the longest one in modern history (along with the Japanese occupation of Korea between 1910 and 1945). Israel is a nuclear power, with F-16s and attack helicopters furnished by the United States; it has used those to collectively punish and besiege an entirely civilian, unarmed, stateless and dispossessed Palestinian population, all the while confiscating Palestinian land, building illegal settlements, destroying houses, assassinating leaders, and now, imprisoning Yasser Arafat in his compound. To every Arab and Muslim, what Israel has been doing is state terrorism, and what Palestinians do most of the time is to resist that violence, sometimes using desperate terrorist means. The problem is that for independent intellectuals like you and me, the questions we raise, the moral issues we discern, the language and imagery that we use are central to the whole enterprise of democratic citizenship. You have shown in your beautiful reflections on the atomic bombs in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, or rather in your careful work recording the testimonials of people who lived through that indescribable apocalypse, that human knowledge is essentially tragic and always somehow inadequate to the terrible immediacy of human experience. That doesn't stop one, however, from thinking and trying everlastingly to elaborate the situation that presents itself so urgently for consideration, analysis, judgment. And this is one reason, whether we live in Japan or the United States, the engulfing power of enormous military enterprises and huge corporate endeavors prompts us to deal with them carefully and stubbornly, analyzing and demystifying them, without falling into the kind of assent to authority that so many of our compatriots have succumbed to. Never unquestioning solidarity without criticism, is my motto. And I think yours, too. Doubtless we are now in a new phase of history, of which the regulation of political discourse by central authority is an intimidating reality for individuals everywhere. Isn't it also our role, I would ask you cherished Oe-san, not only to outline the reality but also to present alternatives to it? So many of our generation have turned away from their earlier critical positions and have embraced ``pragmatism'' and endorsements of the status quo. But surely there are other ``realities'' to which we can appeal, here and in Japan. Maybe we can go into this in our next letter. I embrace and salute you, With my fondest wishes, (C) Edward W. Said These stories originally appeared in Japanese, the Asahi Shimbun on Feb. 13, 14 and 15, and in asahi.com culture site, http://www.asahi.com/culture/bunka/index.html --MS_Mac_OE_3109180411_1675771_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Letters Exchanged between KENZABURO OE and EDWARD W. SAID

Dear all,

Here is a great piece.
PS a belated welcome to Matlida and Theresa in Amsterdam to this list.
Best
Anjali Sagar


Letters Exchanged between KENZABURO OE and EDWARD W. SAID


From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID:
Japan's youth should avoid assimilation into cultural imperialism

My dear Edward Said,

On New Year's Day, I participated as a commentator in Tokyo in a debate on = satellite television by some youths in America and their counterparts in Isl= amic countries.

One of the students in New York eloquently advocated the role of world poli= ce by ``the most powerful and richest democratic country.''

His point was that all the problems would be solved if ``we'' taught democr= acy to ``those'' who are less advanced.

A girl student in Cairo clearly described the variety among Islamic countri= es and the anger against America shared by each of them. She also sent a mes= sage to the self-righteous American student: ``Read Edward Said's books inst= ead of those propagandized by the mass media.''

Since the 11th of September you have intensively written penetrating articl= es that are all enduring as well as relevant to the times. They are going to= be collected and published in this country. Together with them, I hope, my = countrymen will also read ``Culture and Imperialism,'' of which a superb Jap= anese translation was published last summer (both by the Misuzu Shobo publis= hing house).

The time has already come in which cultures are all ``hybrid, heterogeneous= , extraordinarily differentiated, and unmonolithic.'' At such a time, why sh= ould the cultural and the national identity of Americans combine to rule the= world with the use of massive violence? This was the question you raised, s= oon after the end of the Persian Gulf War.

However, in the middle of the war in Afghanistan, Japan readily volunteered= to be assimilated into the cultural imperialism of America, with mixed hope= and anxiety.

It seems that the sometime Japan bashing by the West has visibly subsided; = and, as the course they will take in the 21st century, Japan and the Japanes= e, at the nadir of their disorientated economy, have chosen to follow in the= wake of America with its unitary and monolithic political and cultural iden= tity.

The prime minister, who promptly expressed his unqualified wish to take par= t in the aggressive policies of the Bush administration and thereby graduall= y nullified the resisting constitutional power of Japan against warfare, is = enjoying enormous popularity in wide-ranging sectors of the nation.

Nevertheless, I am still hoping that the youths of Japan will learn wisdom = and courage from your works and never assimilate themselves into the bizarre= political and cultural situation brought about by the Afghan war. I hope th= ey will be able ``to think concretely and sympathetically, contrapuntally, a= bout others than only about `us.'''

When you first came to Japan in the summer of 1995, I had the privilege of = being your interlocutor in the officially published dialogue. I took the opp= ortunity to have you autograph my copy of ``Culture and Imperialism.'' We ha= ve since met many a time, but I have somehow failed to tell you, my dear Sai= d, that your book gave me the incentive to resuscitate myself as a novelist.=

By the time of our reunion in Tokyo in 1995, I had publicly announced that = I would give up writing novels. I was then devoted only to reading. My crisi= s was made more serious by the fact that my lifelong friend and spiritual gu= ide, the composer Toru Takemitsu, was dying of cancer.

I gave up writing novels after a long deliberation. I then felt that my way= of writing had deviated from its original principle and intent and had gone= astray into a maze: the materials of my novels had become too much involved= with my own life, on the one hand, and, on the other, with esoteric mystici= sm. If I had kept on writing that way, my novels would have lapsed into perv= erted confessions of faith. In such a state of mind I received the Nobel Pri= ze in Stockholm, feeling it to be a kind of burden.

Whenever I was in the company of Takemitsu during my youth, I tended to cre= ate monologues most of the time. He suddenly enlightened me with a precise s= olution: It was just like a composer hitting upon the exact notation for whi= ch there could be no other alternative. That bliss was leaving me forever.
In such a predicament, I was reading your ``Culture and Imperialism.'' I wa= s reading it partly to intensify my criticism against myself for not suffici= ently confronting history and reality. At the same time, I now remember, my = literary yearning was being satisfied by your fully genial ways of reading a= whole variety of novels.

After the death of Takemitsu, I spent a long time writing ``Toru Takemitsu'= s Elaborations'' to make up for his loss. I also made up my mind to make a f= resh start by elaborating my own method of writing novels.

For my support and stay, I had not only the word ``laborate'' but also othe= rs uniquely re-defined by you concerning intellectuals and their morals-thos= e intellectuals who are sufficiently independent while deeply rooted in soci= ety.

In re-reading ``Culture and Imperialism'' in my native language, I become k= eenly aware that, written some 10 years ago, it can be an exact analysis of = present-day Japan and Japanese.

The Japanese are now willingly accepting the rule by cultural imperialism o= r unification of the cultural and national identity, which engulfed America = at the time of the Gulf War and has been reiterated and reinforced in Americ= a throughout the war in Afghanistan. It also means Japan's envisagement of h= er identity with the world other than Islamic countries.

Certainly the Afghan Reconstruction Conference in Tokyo was held for all-im= portant motives. But the high-ranking Japanese officials, with the exception= of the Government Delegate Madam Sadako Ogata, looked as if they were celeb= rating the war victory in the presence of the Secretary of State Mr. Powell.=

Did this not have a bearing on the fact that, although temporarily, the Jap= anese government barred from the conference the delegates of two NGOs who ha= d seen the dubious battle with their own eyes?

The tone of my letter has become grim. And yet I find hope in the emerging = new breed of young intellectuals who can raise their effectual voice of diss= ent against the united cultural imperialisms of America and Japan. I mean, f= or instance, the women members of the said NGOs and of even smaller respecti= ve groups of volunteers who are proficient in telecommunication techniques; = and also those youths in the southern islands of Okinawa that house the mili= tary bases for the war in Afghanistan. Those Okinawans are trying to establi= sh a network with ``them'' or ``not us'' and are receiving less and less att= ention from inhabitants of mainland Japan.

I am not certain-perhaps nobody is-whether humankind can surmount the curre= nt crisis without being integrated into the imperialism (not only cultural b= ut overall imperialism) of one great nation.

But suppose we can. Then it will no doubt be by ``them'' or those diverse p= eople, whether the volunteers of the NGOs or the Okinawans, that a spatial a= nd temporal sphere could be created in which the humankind will lead a genui= nely humane life in the 21st century.

With warmest wishes,

Yours ever,

Kenzaburo Oe.

(Translated into English by Hisaaki Yamanouchi from the Japanese original.)=

??????

From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID:
Indiscriminate hostility makes Muslims enemies of the state

Dear Oe-san:

I must say first of all how honored I am by this exchange of letters with y= ou. As one of the world's great writers, you are also a sensitive witness to= the travails of our time, particular those that concern Japan, an extraordi= nary country that seems to embody more intractably than most, the contradict= ions, the ups and downs of modernity and tradition, war and peace, dependenc= e and audacity, empire and its loss.

No one has written more profoundly about these matters in the context of wh= at I would call Japan's worldliness, that is, its place in the historical an= d secular world, than you, and your first letter to me is a perfect instance= of what I mean about your work. If in the end you raise questions of an alm= ost epochal seriousness-several of which I cannot answer here-then that too = has been your style, to pose stark alternatives against each other without p= rettification, for example, between empire and victimhood, or between memory= and future directions. We must face them, you say courageously. For that I = am deeply grateful, as I am also for the consideration that you give to my o= wn work.

I have now lived in the United States for 51 years, having come here from t= he Arab world (Egypt and pre-1948 Palestine) when I was a schoolboy aged 15.= It was a momentous move for me, full of unhappy dislocation, a sense of los= s, and great difficulty getting used to a place that was totally different f= rom the warm (in both senses of the word) environment of Arab society.

After slowly getting used to America, getting all my education here, and th= en finding a job teaching at Columbia University (I began in 1963 and I am s= till a member of the faculty), I find myself feeling like a lost stranger al= l over again. The other day a friend asked me, ``What does it feel like to b= e the enemy?'' which is something that every Arab or Muslim American that I = know feels: We are the officially designated enemies of a nation whose presi= dent committed himself publicly to a war against evil, on an apocalyptic lev= el and scale unknown to previous history.

The war against Afghanistan was fought against the Taliban and al-Qaida, bo= th of whom are unlamented in defeat; but it is still a noteworthy fact that = two of the officially designated members of the ``axis of evil'' are Muslim = states, one of them Arab, and that the only countries since the Vietnam War = that the U.S. has waged all-out war against are Muslim countries, Iraq, Afgh= anistan, Somalia, whose complete destruction was desired, if not totally ach= ieved.

The media here has ceaselessly pursued ``terrorism'' and ``radical or milit= ant Islam'' with such insistence and such indiscriminate hostility as to hav= e made us all into enemies of the state, a state acting on behalf of righteo= usness and good with, it would seem, a mandate from God. Arab and Muslim Ame= ricans are routinely challenged by police, airline attendants, security offi= cials because of the way they look, and even because of the language they sp= eak or read. A plane-traveling friend of mine was recently asked to put away= his Arabic newspaper because, the attendant said, it was ``disturbing'' oth= er passengers. Understandably enough, Americans fear for their security afte= r the atrocities of Sept. 11, but ``evil'' can't be localized so easily and = found to be emanating only from the non-Atlantic world. Who can forget Herma= n Melville's character Captain Ahab in Moby Dick, the greatest American nove= l, in relentless, crazy pursuit of the white whale that has become his monom= aniacal obsession as the personification of evil?

For the first time in my life I find it next to impossible to read The New = York Times or watch the network television news: both seem driven in their r= eporting and commentary by a patriotic attitude that essentially supports th= e war, increased defense spending (raised to an unprecedented level), and th= e projection of U.S. power, with the ability to fight a war everywhere in th= e world.

I myself have always opposed religious politics and have strongly condemned= wanton and suicidal violence, and I have done so not only in English but in= the Arab world in Arabic. And yet I feel that the hostility toward and misu= nderstanding of ``Islam'' (which is a useless description for 1.3 billion pe= ople who come from innumerable traditions, use hundreds of different languag= es, and possess every variety of diversified culture) have enveloped whole p= ortions of the globe, especially in Europe and the U.S., so that everything = has been boiled down reductively to a few caricatures of a whole culture and= religion in order to sustain an attitude of the most profound bellicosity a= nd to drag a huge body of Americans, unthinkingly and uncritically, into sup= porting that attitude.

Some of the arguments used to keep Americans at war are, for instance, that= Islam is enraged; or, Islam has not had a Reformation and needs one now; or= , something has gone wrong with the Islamic world; or, finally, that Islam i= s a militant and violent religion.

The result has been to make the complex, dynamic interaction of peoples, cu= ltures and traditions a simple oppositional matter, rather in the (basically= ) mindless and simplified way advocated by Samuel Huntington in his ``The Cl= ash of Civilizations'' on the one hand, and, on the other, to blind American= s to what their nation or culture is in fact doing.

This is strikingly reminiscent of the rhetorical war between the U.S. and J= apan during World War II, described by John Dower. But, that was soon over a= nd replaced for a time with Japan-bashing that occurred while Japan's power = grew so remarkably in the 1970s and after. Hostility between Islam and the W= est is a much older one. It goes in both directions, of course, but with the= enormous asymmetry of power favoring the U.S., it is a far more disturbing = and destructive exchange.

What I would underline in such a situation is the ever-increasing importanc= e of understanding and criticism, both of which are the essence of citizensh= ip and democracy.

My impression is that what has overtaken America is a wave of triumphal pat= riotism, much of it of course stemming from the shock of the atrocities of S= ept. 11. Yes, it is completely understandable for the United States to have = responded to the attacks, but that response has been overlain with a kind of= metaphysical language justifying unilateralism abroad while preventing disc= ussion and criticism at home.

Thus President Bush speaks of a crusade in one breath, of an axis of evil i= n another, whereas what we are talking about (in the terms of history and re= ality that you so eloquently invoke in your letter to me) is American power = on such an unprecedented scale as to grind down the rest of the world and sa= y, as Bush does continually, you're either with us or you're for terrorism.<= BR>
No one has defined terrorism adequately even though the whole world seems t= o be mobilized to fight against it, Japan included, as you very accurately s= ay. The U.N. spent several years in the mid-1970s debating the meaning of th= e term, and was unsuccessful in finding a common, all-encompassing definitio= n.

The problem is that, used without qualification as a concept merely to iden= tify what one doesn't like, or something evil that has been done, or an offi= cial enemy, the word ``terrorism'' can also obscure what may be an act of re= sistance, or of desperation caused by a preponderance of power that is both = heedless and destructive. I agree that what bin Laden did, and what his foll= owers advocate, are terroristic because they call for the indiscriminate kil= ling of innocent people and a false divide of the world simplistically into = his enemies and his allies. What madness this is, and what a misrepresentati= on not only of Islam but of the complexity of human history.

But I think it is especially wrong to use the word ``terrorism'' uniformly = (as General Sharon does) whenever Palestinians strike back at Israel. If one= were to say, as Sharon and George Bush repeatedly do, that Palestinian suic= ide-bombings are terrorism-I myself find them unacceptable-and then demand t= hat Yasser Arafat should stop Palestinian violence altogether, the context i= s entirely missed, which is that Israel has been in an illegal military occu= pation of Palestinian territory for 35 years, the longest one in modern hist= ory (along with the Japanese occupation of Korea between 1910 and 1945).

Israel is a nuclear power, with F-16s and attack helicopters furnished by t= he United States; it has used those to collectively punish and besiege an en= tirely civilian, unarmed, stateless and dispossessed Palestinian population,= all the while confiscating Palestinian land, building illegal settlements, = destroying houses, assassinating leaders, and now, imprisoning Yasser Arafat= in his compound. To every Arab and Muslim, what Israel has been doing is st= ate terrorism, and what Palestinians do most of the time is to resist that v= iolence, sometimes using desperate terrorist means.

The problem is that for independent intellectuals like you and me, the ques= tions we raise, the moral issues we discern, the language and imagery that w= e use are central to the whole enterprise of democratic citizenship. You hav= e shown in your beautiful reflections on the atomic bombs in Nagasaki and Hi= roshima, or rather in your careful work recording the testimonials of people= who lived through that indescribable apocalypse, that human knowledge is es= sentially tragic and always somehow inadequate to the terrible immediacy of = human experience. That doesn't stop one, however, from thinking and trying e= verlastingly to elaborate the situation that presents itself so urgently for= consideration, analysis, judgment.

And this is one reason, whether we live in Japan or the United States, the = engulfing power of enormous military enterprises and huge corporate endeavor= s prompts us to deal with them carefully and stubbornly, analyzing and demys= tifying them, without falling into the kind of assent to authority that so m= any of our compatriots have succumbed to. Never unquestioning solidarity wit= hout criticism, is my motto. And I think yours, too.

Doubtless we are now in a new phase of history, of which the regulation of = political discourse by central authority is an intimidating reality for indi= viduals everywhere. Isn't it also our role, I would ask you cherished Oe-san= , not only to outline the reality but also to present alternatives to it?
So many of our generation have turned away from their earlier critical posi= tions and have embraced ``pragmatism'' and endorsements of the status quo. B= ut surely there are other ``realities'' to which we can appeal, here and in = Japan. Maybe we can go into this in our next letter.

I embrace and salute you,

With my fondest wishes,

(C) Edward W. Said

These stories originally appeared in Japanese, the Asahi Shimbun on Feb. 13= , 14 and 15, and in asahi.com culture site, http://www.asahi.com/culture/bun= ka/index.html


 --MS_Mac_OE_3109180411_1675771_MIME_Part-- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Co-ordinated by Reena Mohan and her friends, Anshu Gupta/Goonj.=20 Items Clothes: For men, women, boys, infants. Towels - Anupama Srinivasan and Uma Devi Plastic buckets, Tavas, Pressure Cookers, etc purchased in Ahmedabad - money contributed by Ashok Verma of the Haemophilic Federation of India, Delhi, and the staff of Encyclopedia Brittanica, India ...shopping and distribution by Mr.Hussaini of HFI, Ahmedabad Degchis(59) and Sewing Machines(10) made possible by money collected and contributed by Afzal Mirza, Apal Singh and Loveleen Sagar 4 Thelas to be contributed by Anshu Gupta/ Goonj. From Bombay: Co-ordinated by Jabeen Merchant, Punam Swahney, Paresh Kamdar/ Gazala = Kamdar/ Collected by: Mrs. Rukaiya Merchant, Ms. Shanta Gokhale, Ms. Renuka Rana, Ms. Lovleen = Mishra, Mrs. Khadija Boxwala, Ms. Bela Segal, Mrs. Sukaina Ukani, Mrs. = Amirbanu Mukadam, Mrs. Masuma Merchant, Mr. Naresh Fernandes, Ms. Svati = Chakravarty, Ms. Punam Sawhney, Paresh and Gazala Kamdar, Total number of packages: 81 Women's clothes: (Salwar Kameez, Sarees, 2 unstitched pieces, a few = scarves and head covering chaddars) Men's clothes: (Shirts, trousers, a few kurta-pyjammas and pattan suits) Children's clothes: (Dresses, shirts, pants, a few nappies and = underclothes.) Footwear for men, women and children. Utensils Money received so far: 1) Mary Ann Dasgupta (Sharehouse Charitable Foundation) sent a DD Of Rs = 3,000 to be used on children. 2) Manjushree collected Rs 10,000. Given in cash. 3) Scharada Bail sent a DD of Rs 5,000. TOTAL RECEIVED TILL 19/07/2002 = Rs 18,000/- =20 Accounts: 30/06/2002: STD Calls = Rs 101/- 01/07/2002 Transportation for stoves from godown to chali: = Rs 150/- 13/07/2002 Office stationary (files, stapler, punching = machine); Rs 158/- STD Calls: = Rs 50/- 15/07/2002 Octroi charges for vehicle from Bombay: = Rs 150/- STD Calls: = Rs 37/- Octroi charges for stuff from Delhi: sent via = TCI: Rs 700/- Transportation charges for Delhi stuff from TCI=20 Godown to chali: = Rs 270/- STD Calls: = Rs 20/- 16/07/2002 Money given to Mr Hasan Ali Amir Ali of Kasai ki Chali = for buying plumbing tools and a bicycle. (He is a plumber, who used to = operate mostly across the Sabarmati in Hindu = areas and lost his equipments and bicycle during the turmoil) - He = showed us the stuff he bought from money taken = from us. = = Rs 1250/- Money given to Mr Memon of Rakhial Road. For = buying Material he could sell in the villages. He is a travelling = salesman and has not received any = compensation yet. (Ajay met him at Shaha Alam Relief camp. He asked for = help which Ajay could not refuse. Mr. Menon wanted to go to Film = Institute, Pune (FTII) in early sixties, but was = prevented by his father) - He gave us the Bills for the money spent = = = Rs. = 2000/=20 =20 TOTAL SPENT SO FAR: = RS 4886/-=20 BALANCE LEFT WITH US: = Rs 13114/- People wishing to contribute in cash can send us their Cheques and DD's = in the name of: "GUJARAT EDUCATION SOCIETY / PRASHANT" Addressed to: AJAY RAINA. B -4, ELITE FLATS, OFF NARAYAN NAGAR ROAD, NEAR JETTABHAI PARK, PALDI, AHMEDABAD 380 007. Our Tel: No in Ahmedabad is 079 - 6633914 All contributions will be exempt income tax under the relevant sections = of Income Tax act. This account will accept only contributions from = within India. We will keep you posted about the progress and about the = money received and spent. People wishing to contribute stuff can co-ordinate their activities and = transportation with 1.. Reena Mohan reenam at vsnl.com at Delhi=20 2.. Anshu Gupta / Goonj anshu_goonj at indiatimes.com / = anshu_kg at hotmail.com at Delhi=20 3.. Jabeen Merchant jabeenmerchant at yahoo.com at Mumbai Best Regards Leya / Ajay =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0690_01C23255.A6EF3A20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Friends,

For those of us who have received the first mail in = which i=20 had sought help and advice regarding our relief endeavour at Kasai Ki = Chali,=20 this is the fourth mail in that series. This mail is a report on our = work so=20 far.

We have received wonderful support from lots of = people across=20 India and even from some Indians abroad. We have received two truckloads = of=20 material help from Delhi and Mumbai and some cash from a few = friends.This quote=20 from a mail we received is just an example of how forthcoming and = emotionally=20 supportive people have been to our little endeavour.

 Dear Cousin Ajay,

I'm an environmental scientist by job and = orphanage=20 director by heart. I'm from an extremely small village way up the = (Kashmir)=20 valley. My family was forced to leave Kashmir with nothing but our lives = when I=20 was 16. We stayed in the camps in Delhi for some time, so I know a bit = what your=20 chali is going through. The camps are the same - the regular rules of = society=20 just don’t apply any more - people will cut your throat for a cup = of rice.=20 Amazing sometimes how we grow up to be so small. It's their fear and = insecurity=20 talking though. Hang in there. And remember too - hai lekhon motiyon se = keemati=20 tumhari hansi. Zara sambhal ke rakhanna is luteron se.

We have = one idea=20 for you from my boys at the orphanage. It's cheap to implement and has = kind of=20 cool ripple effects. We take the seeds of fruit we eat at snack time and = plant=20 them in pots, cans, plastic cups, plastic bottles that we cut the tops = off of,=20 anything else we can find. the children get the responsibility of = minding the=20 seedlings, watering them, etc. when the plants get big enough, we plant = them=20 around our complex, sell off extra ones, or donate them to other = organisations,=20 old folks homes, free schools, etc (just because we're needy doesnt mean = we're=20 exempt from doing our part). in a couple years, depending on the type of = tree,=20 they will bear fruit. they dont necessarily have to be planted in the = ground=20 either - people who buy the seedlings can plant them in large pots and = grow them=20 on balconies and roofs. the benefits of this scheme are numerous:=20 1.      = trees=20 improve local air quality and ambient heat index for the neighbourhood=20 2.      = our=20 complex gets beautified 3.      = its=20 inexpensive to start and maintain 4.      = in a=20 few years, we get more tasty, vitamin packed snacks! = 5.      = the=20 kids get to learn some basic biology lessons 6.     =20 "trash" such as cans and plastic dont end up sitting around the=20 neighbourhood streets or in the dumps never disintegrating=20 7.      = and=20 where do the seeds come from for the next batch? you guessed it! :). it = works=20 with vegetables too. and it provides a way for us to reduce our = operating costs=20 - growing our own food as well as providing a small income source. = whatever=20 money we make gets reinvested into the orphanage. start up costs are = minimal -=20 the price of some oranges - and it's sustainable.

sending you smiles and good wishes from = our side!=20
best regards,
Pallavi Raina
           &nbs= p;           =20            &nbs= p;           =20            &nbs= p;           =20            =20

In our last mail to us all, we had updated you = about the=20 employment requirements of the people of the Chali. We felt that instead = of=20 continuing to give them things we could help them better by providing = them the=20 initial financial impetus to start life again on their own strength and = with=20 their dignity intact. The money we have received so far for the above = purpose=20 has been kept in reserve till we receive suffidient funds to begin with = one=20 scheme atleast. We are thinking of raising just sufficient money to = donate to=20 the people (without any conditions) who are anxious of re-starting their = small=20 trades. We are also planning to buy 10 ‘Thelas’, for the = people from the Kasai=20 Ki Chali who used to sell their wares from them. We still have not been = able to=20 identify people from Gasiram Ki Chali who may require similar = assistance.

We spoke to an NGO in Ahmedabad, which finances = riot victims=20 on free interest loans. They give loans up to Rs. 10,000 and they have = their own=20 conditions: like guarantee given by two salaried officials and so on. We = took=20 this package to the Chali people. They were initially quite = enthusiastic. We had=20 around 8 potential applicants till they realised that conditions would = be=20 difficult for them. Since then no one has come forward to pursue his = case=20 further. Gisabhai Chacha, at 60 years, who can’t even sign his = name, cannot even=20 comprehend all the conditions. He says that all he wants back is the = handcart=20 that was burnt during the riots, so that he can start selling titbits = again, and=20 to live with dignity.

While working on that line, the trucks from Bombay = and Delhi=20 reached Ahmedabad. We transported all the stock to a room at the chali = that has=20 become our unofficial office.  = It=20 took us quiet a while to sort out just the 16 plastic boris from Goonj/ = Delhi=20 and lots of Potli's and assorted bags of cloths from Mumbai. The = bori’s=20 contained cloth and utensils.

So far we distributed to 60 households of KASAI KI = CHALI=20 (KKC)
1. Clothes to men, women, young people and children
2.=20 Notebooks.
3. Bedsheets
4. Towels
5. Degchi and Thali
6. = stove
7.=20 pressure cooker
8. tawa
9.=20 bucket           &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =        =20 10.mug
11. Footwear to children only

Some cloths are still = left to=20 distribute

There is still the Bombay ka maal that has to be = opened,=20 sorted out and distributed. We will keep this stuff for the people of = Gasi Ram=20 ki Chali (GRC)

But what really depress-es us here is the petty = fights that=20 go on in the Chali, which tend to get out of hand. The Islamic Relief = Committee,=20 which was rebuilding the houses had in fact left their re-construction = work mid=20 way and gone away in a huff. At the time of writing this report they = have=20 returned. The policy of the committee is that, if the people have = received good=20 compensation cheques, then they should pool in some money from that = towards=20 rebuilding their houses. Perhaps it makes perfect sense. Some households = in=20 Kasai ki Chali have got cheques of up to 50,000, but they made sure the=20 committee did not know about it. But, sooner rather than later it = reached the=20 ears of the committee that Kasai ki Chali had got good cheques. Though = by then=20 they had finished more than half the houses free of cost, they started = asking=20 the rest to pool in a certain percentage of their compensation money. = Nobody=20 else in the Chali wanted to pay. Who had leaked the news on to the = Committee=20 regarding the cheques? Old rivalries started surfacing. Fights broke out = regularly. Men, women alike started giving colourful galis to their = erstwhile=20 friends. The Committee walked away. 3- 4 badly damaged, burnt and broken = down=20 houses were still left unbuilt. =20 Whose fault is it? We don’t know either. We don’t = know whether we can=20 judge them for wanting to keep as much of the money they got for = themselves. We=20 don’t know whether we can blame the Committee for wanting people = who have got Rs=20 50,000 as compensation to pay up a little. The atmosphere in the chali = is full=20 of mistrust and bottled up anger.

Naseema Ben (she came to the Chali in 1950 from a = village in=20 Haryana, after having seen the partition riots) says, “All this = mistrust started=20 only after the recent carnage. “These people, most of them at = least, were born=20 here. They grew up here, playing with each other, fighting with each = other. They=20 know each other well. Then why would they mistrust each other so much = over a=20 thousand rupees or even over a UNICEF kit with soaps and bed = sheets?” (Which=20 they still haven’t got, by the way)

Their anger right now may not be so much against = the ‘talwar’=20 wielding Hindu as against those of their own who came to help them = rebuild their=20 homes and now demand a part of their compensation money. We are treading = slowly=20 here, trying not to step on any toes. We are distributing things with = caution.=20 We are making an unashamed big public show of how fair/ impartial we = are!!!!!!=20 They have to sign if they get their share. If they do not want hand me = downs,=20 and allow that to be given away to some body else, they still have to = sign.

Some of the children of the Chali are still sitting = at home.=20 They are unable to go to their old schools because of fear. Their = admission in=20 new schools in Muslim dominated areas is still to take place. We do not = know how=20 we can help here.

This is where Kasai ki Chali is now.

As we had apprehended in our first mail to you all, = “The=20 real problems are expected to start now, when people start going back to = their=20 homes.”  Perhaps = Kasai ki chali=20 is happening in all the affected Muslim Localities of Gujarat. Perhaps = we are=20 only over reacting to what we keep hearing about other places in = Ahmedabad.

As for Gasiram ki Chali, things are even more = complicated=20 there. The people of this Chali are still living in the Behrampura camp. = They=20 have been in the camp for 5 months now. At the entrance to their Chali, = there=20 now stands an illegal pan shop, as if it had always been there. The = tensions=20 within the people of the chali are now very visible even to outsiders = like us.=20 There is one Sharifaben, from the Chali who is employed by an NGO. She = has been=20 trying hard to get the pan shop removed. She has spoken to every one = from KPS=20 Gill to every lower rung officer in the collector’s office. = Everyday they come=20 back with definite assurances that the illegal Pan shop will be = demolished by=20 that evening. Till the writing of this mail, the Pan shop still stood = there,=20 blocking the entry of its rightful residents.

Sharifaben says, “I am working day in and day = out for the=20 people of my chali, but they did not even raise the issue of getting me = the Red=20 Cross kit, which everybody got but me and 4 other people from my = Chali.” The=20 Chali Men say, “ What the hell, isn’t she earning money in = the bargain? Who is=20 she helping? Herself? Or the people of her Chali?” They fight over = everything=20 including kits, ration cards, surveys and cheques.

The inner violence that is surfacing now scares us. = We wonder=20 about the people of Naroda Patia, who have actually seen their family = being=20 killed. When will their violence surface? In what form?

Meanwhile we hope, and we continue sorting out = notebooks/=20 pens/ crayons/ toys/ bed sheets etc, cloths etc;

One problem we face here is; if there are only 16 = bed sheets=20 how do we distribute them? It might end up not being distributed at all. = Who are=20 we to decide which 16 people get what we have to give? When you send = stuff,=20 as far as possible, please try to send at least 60 (for Kasai Ki Chali) = or 46=20 (for Gasiram ki Chali) so that we can distribute the same to every = household,=20 without any discrimination.

Things received so far:

From Delhi

Total number of packages: 27

Co-ordinated by Reena Mohan and her friends, Anshu=20 Gupta/Goonj. 

Items

Clothes: For men, women, boys, infants.

Towels - Anupama Srinivasan and Uma = Devi

Plastic=20 buckets, Tavas, Pressure Cookers, etc purchased in Ahmedabad -
money=20 contributed by Ashok Verma of the Haemophilic Federation of = India,
Delhi, and=20 the staff of Encyclopedia Brittanica, India ...shopping = and
distribution by=20 Mr.Hussaini of HFI, Ahmedabad

Degchis(59) and Sewing Machines(10) = made=20 possible by money collected and
contributed by Afzal Mirza, Apal = Singh and=20 Loveleen Sagar

4 Thelas to be contributed by Anshu Gupta/ = Goonj.

 From=20 Bombay:

Co-ordinated by Jabeen Merchant, Punam Swahney, = Paresh=20 Kamdar/ Gazala Kamdar/

Collected by:

Mrs. Rukaiya Merchant, Ms. Shanta Gokhale, Ms. = Renuka=20 Rana, Ms. Lovleen Mishra, Mrs. Khadija Boxwala, Ms. Bela Segal, Mrs. = Sukaina=20 Ukani, Mrs. Amirbanu Mukadam, Mrs. Masuma Merchant, Mr. Naresh = Fernandes, Ms.=20 Svati Chakravarty, Ms. Punam Sawhney, Paresh and Gazala Kamdar,
Total = number=20 of packages: 81

Women’s clothes: (Salwar Kameez, Sarees, 2 = unstitched pieces,=20 a few scarves and head = covering=20 chaddars)

Men’s clothes: (Shirts, trousers, a few = kurta-pyjammas and=20 pattan suits)

Children’s clothes: (Dresses, shirts, pants, = a few nappies=20 and underclothes.)

Footwear for men, women and children.

Utensils

Money received so far:

 1) Mary Ann Dasgupta (Sharehouse Charitable = Foundation)=20 sent a DD Of Rs 3,000 to   = be=20 used on children.

2) Manjushree collected Rs 10,000. Given in = cash.

3) Scharada Bail sent a DD of Rs 5,000.

TOTAL RECEIVED TILL = 19/07/2002                 &nbs= p;           =20            =20          Rs=20 18,000/-

 

Accounts:

30/06/2002:           STD= =20 Calls           &nb= sp;            &nbs= p;            = ;           &nbs= p;            = ;           &nbs= p;   =20     Rs 101/-

01/07/2002           =20 Transportation for stoves from godown to chali:                &nbs= p;  =20         Rs 150/-

13/07/2002           =20 Office stationary (files, stapler, punching machine);         =20            =20 Rs 158/-

           =20            =20 STD Calls:           &nbs= p;   =20            &nbs= p;           =20            &nbs= p;           =20            &nbs= p; =20       Rs 50/-

15/07/2002           =20 Octroi charges for vehicle from Bombay:                      &nbs= p;           &nbs= p;   Rs=20 150/-

           =20            =20 STD Calls:           &nbs= p;   =20            &nbs= p;           =20            &nbs= p;           =20            =20         Rs 37/-

           =20            =20 Octroi charges for stuff from Delhi: sent via TCI:           =20            =20         Rs 700/-

           =20            =20 Transportation charges for Delhi stuff from TCI

           &nbs= p;           =20            =20 Godown to chali:         =20            &nbs= p;           =20            =20            =20     Rs 270/-

           =20            =20 STD Calls:           &nbs= p;               &nbs= p;            = ;           &nbs= p;            = ;           &nbs= p;       Rs=20 20/-

16/07/2002        Money=20 given to Mr Hasan Ali Amir Ali of Kasai ki Chali for buying = plumbing tools=20 and a bicycle. (He is a plumber, who used to operate mostly across = the=20             =    =20         Sabarmati in Hindu areas and lost = his=20 equipments and bicycle during the turmoil) - He showed us the stuff he = bought=20 from money taken         =    =20              =20             =    =20         from us.           &nbs= p;            = ;           &nbs= p;            = ;           &nbs= p;           &nbs= p;           &nbs= p;            = ;           &nbs= p;           =20 Rs 1250/-

           =20            =20 Money given to Mr Memon of Rakhial Road. For buying Material = he=20 could sell in the villages. He is a travelling salesman and has not = received any=20             =    =20             =    =20     compensation yet. (Ajay met him at Shaha Alam = Relief=20 camp. He asked for help which Ajay could not refuse. Mr. Menon wanted to = go to=20 Film Institute,             =             Pune (FTII) in = early=20 sixties, but was prevented by his father)  - He gave us the Bills for = the money=20 spent           =20            =20            =20            =20            =20            =20            =20            =20            =20            =20            =20            &nbs= p; =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20              =20             Rs. = 2000/

 

TOTAL SPENT SO FAR:           &nbs= p;           &nbs= p;           &nbs= p;           &nbs= p;           &nbs= p;           &nbs= p;           &nbs= p;            = ;       RS=20 4886/-=20

BALANCE LEFT WITH US:           &nbs= p;                 &nbs= p;            = ;           &nbs= p;           &nbs= p;       Rs=20 13114/-

People wishing to contribute in cash can send us = their=20 Cheques and DD's in the name of: "GUJARAT EDUCATION SOCIETY / = PRASHANT"

Addressed to:

AJAY RAINA.

B -4, ELITE FLATS,

OFF NARAYAN NAGAR ROAD,

NEAR JETTABHAI PARK,

PALDI,

AHMEDABAD 380 007.

Our Tel: No in Ahmedabad is 079 - 6633914

All contributions will be exempt income tax under = the=20 relevant sections of Income Tax act. This account will accept only = contributions=20 from within India. We will keep you posted about the progress and about = the=20 money received and spent.

 People wishing to contribute stuff can = co-ordinate=20 their activities and transportation with

  1. Reena Mohan = reenam at vsnl.com at Delhi=20
  2. Anshu Gupta = / Goonj=20 anshu_goonj at indiatimes.com= /=20 anshu_kg at hotmail.com at = Delhi=20
  3. Jabeen = Merchant jabeenmerchant at yahoo.com = at=20 Mumbai

 Best Regards

Leya / Ajay

 

 

 

<= /BODY> ------=_NextPart_000_0690_01C23255.A6EF3A20-- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: worn inside out here. Everybody is. Do the rats know there is something called happiness? Rats have cybergroups these days. They pass comments on the state of events each day. Each day the state worsens. Or does it, then again. Rats like doomsday. Has it always been like this? But rats have written the history in the first place so you wouldn�t know otherwise even if you read some. Cybergroups lead to activists. Cut and paste activists. They thrive on each other. It�s an orgy of thoughts. Mind is shareware. Its copyleft. Copyright is for pedestrian rats. Mobile rats are wired; they are connected. They are rats. And wait till they get their teeth into something. So what am I doing here? You ask me? Come mon, ask me. It�s not a dare, its� an advice. I am not pleading. But, you could be helpful. Under this tree, whokay by me, any shade will do today. Its 40� C outside. 65 % humidity. �I need to get my style sheet right� is all I can hear. You can�t even whisper here. They create a silence by rattling their teeth. So much sound; you begin to believe you are deaf. Lets go out sit under the tree. You were saying� Alright so I am here. You aren�t. But nobody asked you to. Be me or be here. I am though. I am all of me when I ask myself who I am? Do you ever? They told me this is a serious epidemic � people asking themselves why they are? Funny epidemic � epidemic �n. widespread occurrence of a disease in a community at a particular time. �adj. in the nature of an epidemic. [Greek epi against, demos the people] But I can�t hear/see anyone else asking? Nobody does it loud now? Perhaps all the voices don�t fit in the shade of this tree. Perhaps the tree is shrinking. Perhaps is all that�s left of most I believed in. When do we go to sleep tonight? When's the last party getting over. Check, hello. Give me back my boks and cassettes, all of you. I am going on a train tonight. Thought tracks. When i come back, iwant to see all of you lined up, confessing you took my books, my music. I want the music back. Did everyone say it at 28? Kaif saved the country from Gujrat not happening, Environment must engage industry, all numbers in this line are busy, how can i help you sir? sir you are right but we cant be wrong. we have a hairy nuke in the big house to keep the mud walls intact on our thoughts. beatles did a faster run on the camera in 1967 than john woo dreamt it. sir devdas was a colonial representative of an indian hangover of a sadomasochist. but its our heritage. NCERT says so. Is a zambian family eating the GM food US sent them? One up on Zimbabawe are they now? blink..blink. what did you miss here. you'll never know. its only a blink of infinity in a moment. captured you with screencapture at 1024 by 786 pixels in the fraction that never happened. You are digitised now. But why am I laughing. Its not permitted in public, sorry sir. No you cant be fined for it but we will detain you till further blinks. You are now detained at the traffic till further notice. Next change on friday. ===== _________________________________________________________ `Tut, tut, child!' said the Duchess. `Everything's got a moral, if only you can find it.' - Alice in Wonderland _________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Removing trade barriers is not just a job for the rich. The poor must do = the same in order to prosper, says Jagdish Bhagwati THE launch of a new round of multilateral trade negotiations (MTN) at = Doha dealt a needed blow to the anti-globalisers who triumphed at = Seattle just two years ago. But it was also important for a different = reason. The word "development" now graces the name of the new round. = This is unconventional, but it underlines the fact that development of = the poor countries will be the round's central objective.=20 Pleasing rhetoric aside, however, we must ask: What does this mean? The = question is not idle. For if the current thinking among policymakers and = NGOs is any guide, the answer they would give is not the right one. And = that is cause for alarm. Of course, proponents of trade have always considered that trade is the = policy and development the objective. The experience of the post-war = years only proves them right. The objections advanced by a handful of = dissenting economists, claiming that free-traders exaggerate the gains = from trade or forget that good trade policy is best embedded within a = package of reforms, are mostly setting up and knocking down straw men.=20 But if trade is indeed good for the poor countries, what can be done to = enhance its value for them? A great deal. But not until we confront and = discard several misconceptions. Among them: . the world trading system is "unfair": the poor countries face = protectionism that is more acute than their own; . the rich countries have wickedly held on to their trade barriers = against poor countries, while using the Bretton Woods institutions to = force down the poor countries' own trade barriers; and . it is hypocritical to ask poor countries to reduce their trade = barriers when the rich countries have their own. In fact, asymmetry of trade barriers goes the other way. Take industrial = tariffs. As of today, rich-country tariffs average 3%; poor countries' = tariffs average 13%. Nor do peaks in tariffs-concentrated in textiles = and clothing, fisheries and footwear, and clearly directed at the poor = countries-change the picture much: the United Nations Council for Trade, = Aid and Development (UNCTAD) has estimated that they apply to only a = third of poor-country exports. Moreover, the trade barriers of the poor = countries against one another are more significant restraints on their = own development than those imposed by the rich countries. The situation is little different when it comes to the use of = anti-dumping actions, the classic "fair trade" instrument that has = ironically been used "unfairly" to undermine free trade. The "new" = users, among them Argentina, Brazil, India, South Korea, South Africa = and Mexico, are now filing more anti-dumping complaints than the rich = countries (see chart 1). Between July and December 2001 alone, India = carried out more anti-dumping investigations than anywhere else.=20 The wicked rich? These facts fly in the face of the populist myth that the rich = countries, often acting through the conditionality imposed by the World = Bank and the International Monetary Fund (IMF), have demolished the = trade barriers of the poor countries while holding on to their own. = Indeed, both the omnipotence of the Bretton Woods institutions, and the = wickedness of the rich countries, have been grossly exaggerated. The World Bank's conditionality is so extensive and diffused, and its = need to lend so compelling, that it can in fact be bypassed. Many client = states typically satisfy some conditions while ignoring others. Besides, = countries go to the IMF when there is a stabilisation crisis. Since = stabilisation requires that the excess of expenditures over income be = brought into line, the IMF has often been reluctant to suggest tariff = reductions. These could reduce revenues, exacerbating the crisis.=20 Then again, since countries are free to return to their bad ways once = the crisis is past and the loans repaid, tariff reforms can be reversed. = Countries do not "bind" their tariff reductions under the IMF = programmes, as they do at the World Trade Organisation (WTO). Equally, = tariff reductions may be reversed when a stabilisation crisis recurs and = the tariffs are reimposed to increase revenues. My student Ravi = Yatawara, who has studied what he calls "commercial policy switches", = documents several instances of such tariff-reduction reversals by = countries borrowing from the IMF. For instance, Uruguay in 1971 = increased trade protection during an IMF programme that began the year = before, and even managed to get another credit tranche the year after. = Kenya's 1977 liberalisation was reversed in 1979, the year in which = another arrangement was negotiated with the IMF.=20 Moreover, the comparatively higher trade barriers against = labour-intensive products are not usually the result of wickedness, but = of simple political economy. Unilateral reductions of trade barriers are = in fact not uncommon, and I document them for many countries and several = sectors in the post-war period in my new book, "Going Alone: The Case = for Relaxed Reciprocity in Freeing Trade" (MIT Press, July). But the = fact remains that the developing countries were exempted by the economic = ideology of the time, which embraced "Special and Differential" = treatment for them, from having to make trade concessions of their own = at the successive multilateral trade negotiations that reduced trade = barriers after the war. The rich countries, denied reciprocal = concessions from the poor countries, wound up concentrating on = liberalising trade in products of interest largely to themselves, such = as machinery, chemicals and manufactures, rather than textiles and = clothing.=20 The situation changed when the poor countries became full participants. = In 1995 in Marrakesh, where the Uruguay round was concluded, action was = taken at last to dismantle the infamous Multi-fibre Arrangement (MFA), = which-from its birth in 1961 as the Short-term Cotton Textile = Arrangement-had grown by 1974 into a Frankenstein monster incorporating = several separate agreements restricting world trade in all textiles. At = Marrakesh the MFA was put on the block, and was scheduled to end in ten = years. But even if rich-country protectionism were asymmetrically higher, it = would be dangerous to argue that it is therefore hypocritical to suggest = that poor countries should reduce their own trade barriers. Except in = the few cases of oligopolistic competition, such as that between Fuji = and Eastman Kodak (hardly applicable to poor countries) where strategic = tit-for-tat is credible, the net effect of matching other people's = protection with one's own is to hurt oneself twice over. But there is = ample evidence that many leaders of the poor countries have predictably = made the wrong inference: that rich-country protectionism excuses, and = justifies, going easy on relaxing their own barriers to trade.=20 In fact, the protectionism of the poor and the rich countries must be = viewed together symbiotically to ensure effective exports by the poor = countries. Thus, even if the doors to the markets of the rich countries = were fully open to imports, exports from the poor countries would have = to get past their own doors.=20 We know from numerous case studies dating back to the 1970s (which only = corroborated elementary economic logic) that protection is often the = cause of dismal export, and hence economic, performance. It creates a = "bias against exports" by sheltering domestic markets that then become = more lucrative. Just ask yourself why, though India and the far-eastern = countries faced virtually the same external trade barriers in the = quarter-century after the 1960s, inward-looking India registered a = miserable export performance while outward-looking South Korea, Taiwan, = Singapore and Hong Kong chalked up spectacular exports. Just as charity = begins at home, so exports begin with a good domestic policy. In the = near-exclusive focus on rich-country protectionism, this dramatic lesson = has been lost from view. A strategy for change Rich-country protectionism matters too, of course. And it must be = assaulted effectively. But here, too, we witness folly. The current = fashion is to shame the rich countries by arguing that their protection = hurts the poor countries, whose poverty is the focus of renewed = international efforts. And where action is actually undertaken, the = preference is for granting preferences to the poorer countries, with yet = deeper preferences for the poorest among them (the least-developed = countries, or LDCs, as they are now called). But the former solution is = woefully inadequate, and the latter is downright wrong. If shame were sufficient, there would be no rich-country protectionism = left. Trade economists and international institutions such as UNCTAD and = the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (the GATT) have denounced the = rich countries on this count over three decades. Added support, from = charities such as Oxfam, could help in principle. But these charities = need both expertise and a talent for strategy, not simply a conscience = and a voice. They fall short. By subscribing to the counterproductive = language of "hypocrisy" and the rhetoric of "unfair trade" to attack = protection by the rich, a charity such as Oxfam, splendid at fighting = plagues and famines, does more harm than good.=20 The argument to rich countries should be made in quite a different way: = If you hold on to your own protection, no matter how much smaller, and = in fact even raise it as the United States did recently with steel = tariffs and the farm bill, you are going to undermine seriously the = efforts of those poor-country leaders who have turned to freer trade in = recent decades. It is difficult for such countries to reduce protection = if others, more prosperous and fiercer supporters of free trade, are = breaking ranks.=20 Beyond this, an effective tariff-reduction strategy requires that we = handle labour-intensive goods such as textiles separately from = agriculture. The differences between them dwarf the commonalities. = Labour-intensive manufactures in the rich countries typically employ = their own poor, the unskilled. To argue that we should eliminate = protection, harming them simply because it helps yet poorer folk abroad, = runs into evident ethical (and hence political) difficulties. The answer = must be a gradual, but certain, phase-out of protection coupled with a = simultaneous and substantial adjustment and retraining programme. That = way, we address the problems of the poor both at home and abroad. Once this is done, church groups and charities can be asked to endorse a = programme that is balanced and just. Such a strategy is morally more = compelling than either marching against free trade to protect workers in = the labour-intensive industries of the rich nations-while forgetting the = needs of poor workers in poor countries-or asking for trade restrictions = to be abolished without providing for workers in such industries in the = rich countries. The removal of agricultural protection does not raise the same ethical = problems; production and export subsidies in the United States and the = European Union go mainly to large farmers. That should make it easier to = dismantle farm protection on the grounds of helping the poor. At the = same time, however, agricultural protectionism is energetically defended = as necessary for preserving greenery and the environment. With the = greens in play, protectionism becomes more difficult to remove. But, = just as income support can be de-linked from increasing production and = exports, so measures to support greenery can be de-linked too. Such new = measures, and other environmental protections added as sweeteners, must = be part of the strategic assault on agricultural protection. The target date of Jubilee 2000 helped greatly to focus efforts on the = objective of debt relief. Following that example, I and Arvind = Panagariya of the University of Maryland suggested well over a year = ago-with a nod from Kofi Annan, the UN's secretary general-a Jubilee = 2010 movement to eliminate protection on labour-intensive products by = 2010. Since agricultural protection is politically a harder nut to = crack, 2020, rather than 2010, is probably a more realistic date for its = demise. Leaders of rich and poor countries could endorse both targets at = the mammoth UN Conference on Sustainable Development in Johannesburg in = August. The perils of preferences A final word is necessary on the efforts to open rich-country doors. = This is often done not by dismantling barriers on a most-favoured-nation = (MFN) basis, which reduces them in a non-discriminatory manner, but = through grants of preferences to the poor countries. This approach goes = back to the Generalised System of Preferences (GSP), introduced in 1971 = through a waiver and then granted legal status in 1979 with an enabling = clause at the GATT. Under this, the eligible poor countries were granted = entry at preferentially lower tariff rates. GSP did little for the poor countries. The eligible products often = excluded those on which poor countries had pinned their hopes of = increasing exports. Thus the United States'GSP scheme excluded textiles, = clothing and footwear. Upper caps were also introduced. The United = States imposed a $100m limit on exports per tariff line, per year, per = country; beyond this limit, the preferential rate vanished. Even the = benefits granted were not "bound", and could be varied at a rich = country's displeasure. Thus, when India was put on the Special 301 list = in 1991 and the United States trade representative determined = unilaterally that India's intellectual-property protection was = "unreasonable", President George Bush senior suspended duty-free = privileges under GSP for $60m in trade from India in April 1992.=20 Preferences were also often dropped for commodities when they began to = be successfully exported, a fact documented in a forthcoming study by = Caglar Ozden and Eric Reinhardt of Emory University. Rules of origin = served to curb exports, too. Exported items had to satisfy stringent = local-content specifications (for example, shoes had to have uppers, = soles and laces made locally) to qualify for GSP benefits.=20 The rich countries are still going down this preferential route today. = The United States has introduced the Africa Growth and Opportunity Act = (AGOA), while the EU has brought in the "everything but arms" = initiative, properly known as the EBE, to eliminate trade barriers for = the 49 LDCs. Yet virtually every drawback of GSP applies to these = schemes as well. If anything, they are worse. Under the AGOA, for = example, preferences for African garments are tightly linked to reverse = preferences for American fabrics. Since preferences typically divert trade away from non-preferred = countries, they tend to pitch poor nations against each other. They are = also a wasting asset, since they are relative to an MFN tariff that will = probably decline with further multilateral liberalisation. And since = they are non-binding and can be readily withdrawn for political reasons, = investors are not likely to be impressed by them. Preferences sound attractive and generous, and the poor countries have = accepted them as such. But this has been a mistake. There is no good = substitute for the MFN reduction of trade barriers in the rich = countries. It should go hand in hand with enhanced technical and = financial assistance. By focusing this help preferentially on the poor = nations, the poor should be able to exploit the trade opportunities that = are opened up for them by non-preferential treatment. This is the only = way ahead. Jagdish Bhagwati is University Professor at Columbia University and = Andre Meyer Senior Fellow in International Economics at the Council on = Foreign Relations. His most recently published book is "Free Trade = Today" (Princeton). ------=_NextPart_000_0109_01C26BB3.21992D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3D1188714=

The poor's best hope
Jun 20th 2002 | WASHINGTON, DC
From The Economist print=20 edition

Removing trade barriers is not just a job for the rich. The = poor must=20 do the same in order to prosper, says Jagdish = Bhagwati

THE launch = of a new=20 round of multilateral trade negotiations (MTN) at = Doha=20 dealt a needed blow to the anti-globalisers who triumphed at Seattle = just two=20 years ago. But it was also important for a different reason. The word=20 “development” now graces the name of the new round. This is = unconventional, but=20 it underlines the fact that development of the poor countries will be = the=20 round's central objective.

Pleasing = rhetoric aside,=20 however, we must ask: What does this mean? The question is not idle. For = if the=20 current thinking among policymakers and NGOs is = any guide,=20 the answer they would give is not the right one. And that is cause for=20 alarm.

Of course, = proponents of=20 trade have always considered that trade is the policy and development = the=20 objective. The experience of the post-war years only proves them right. = The=20 objections advanced by a handful of dissenting economists, claiming that = free-traders exaggerate the gains from trade or forget that good trade = policy is=20 best embedded within a package of reforms, are mostly setting up and = knocking=20 down straw men.

But if trade = is indeed=20 good for the poor countries, what can be done to enhance its value for = them? A=20 great deal. But not until we confront and discard several = misconceptions. Among=20 them:

• the = world trading=20 system is “unfair”: the poor countries face protectionism = that is more acute=20 than their own;

• the = rich countries=20 have wickedly held on to their trade barriers against poor countries, = while=20 using the Bretton Woods institutions to force down the poor countries' = own trade=20 barriers; and

• it = is hypocritical to=20 ask poor countries to reduce their trade barriers when the rich = countries have=20 their own.

In fact, = asymmetry of=20 trade barriers goes the other way. Take industrial tariffs. As of today, = rich-country tariffs average 3%; poor countries' tariffs average 13%. = Nor do=20 peaks in tariffs—concentrated in textiles and clothing, fisheries = and footwear,=20 and clearly directed at the poor countries—change the picture = much: the United=20 Nations Council for Trade, Aid and Development (UNCTAD) has=20 estimated that they apply to only a third of poor-country exports. = Moreover, the=20 trade barriers of the poor countries against one another are more = significant=20 restraints on their own development than those imposed by the rich=20 countries.

The = situation is little=20 different when it comes to the use of anti-dumping actions, the classic = “fair=20 trade” instrument that has ironically been used = “unfairly” to undermine free=20 trade. The “new” users, among them Argentina, Brazil, India, = South Korea, South=20 Africa and Mexico, are now filing more anti-dumping complaints than the = rich=20 countries (see chart 1). Between July and December 2001 alone, India = carried out=20 more anti-dumping investigations than anywhere else.


The wicked rich?

These facts = fly in the=20 face of the populist myth that the rich countries, often acting through = the=20 conditionality imposed by the World Bank and the International Monetary = Fund=20 (IMF), have demolished the trade barriers of the = poor=20 countries while holding on to their own. Indeed, both the omnipotence of = the=20 Bretton Woods institutions, and the wickedness of the rich countries, = have been=20 grossly exaggerated.

The World = Bank's=20 conditionality is so extensive and diffused, and its need to lend so = compelling,=20 that it can in fact be bypassed. Many client states typically satisfy = some=20 conditions while ignoring others. Besides, countries go to the IMF when there is a stabilisation crisis. Since = stabilisation=20 requires that the excess of expenditures over income be brought into = line, the=20 IMF has often been reluctant to suggest tariff = reductions.=20 These could reduce revenues, exacerbating the crisis.

Then again, = since=20 countries are free to return to their bad ways once the crisis is past = and the=20 loans repaid, tariff reforms can be reversed. Countries do not = “bind” their=20 tariff reductions under the IMF programmes, as = they do at=20 the World Trade Organisation (WTO). Equally, = tariff=20 reductions may be reversed when a stabilisation crisis recurs and the = tariffs=20 are reimposed to increase revenues. My student Ravi Yatawara, who has = studied=20 what he calls “commercial policy switches”, documents = several instances of such=20 tariff-reduction reversals by countries borrowing from the IMF. For instance, Uruguay in 1971 increased trade = protection=20 during an IMF programme that began the year = before, and=20 even managed to get another credit tranche the year after. Kenya's 1977=20 liberalisation was reversed in 1979, the year in which another = arrangement was=20 negotiated with the IMF.

Moreover, = the=20 comparatively higher trade barriers against labour-intensive products = are not=20 usually the result of wickedness, but of simple political economy. = Unilateral=20 reductions of trade barriers are in fact not uncommon, and I document = them for=20 many countries and several sectors in the post-war period in my new = book, “Going=20 Alone: The Case for Relaxed Reciprocity in Freeing Trade” (MIT Press, July). But the fact remains that the = developing=20 countries were exempted by the economic ideology of the time, which = embraced=20 “Special and Differential” treatment for them, from having = to make trade=20 concessions of their own at the successive multilateral trade = negotiations that=20 reduced trade barriers after the war. The rich countries, denied = reciprocal=20 concessions from the poor countries, wound up concentrating on = liberalising=20 trade in products of interest largely to themselves, such as machinery,=20 chemicals and manufactures, rather than textiles and clothing. =

The = situation changed=20 when the poor countries became full participants. In 1995 in Marrakesh, = where=20 the Uruguay round was concluded, action was taken at last to dismantle = the=20 infamous Multi-fibre Arrangement (MFA), = which—from its=20 birth in 1961 as the Short-term Cotton Textile Arrangement—had = grown by 1974=20 into a Frankenstein monster incorporating several separate agreements=20 restricting world trade in all textiles. At Marrakesh the MFA was put on the block, and was scheduled to end in = ten=20 years.

But even if = rich-country=20 protectionism were asymmetrically higher, it would be dangerous to argue = that it=20 is therefore hypocritical to suggest that poor countries should reduce = their own=20 trade barriers. Except in the few cases of oligopolistic competition, = such as=20 that between Fuji and Eastman Kodak (hardly applicable to poor = countries) where=20 strategic tit-for-tat is credible, the net effect of matching other = people's=20 protection with one's own is to hurt oneself twice over. But there is = ample=20 evidence that many leaders of the poor countries have predictably made = the wrong=20 inference: that rich-country protectionism excuses, and justifies, going = easy on=20 relaxing their own barriers to trade.

In fact, the = protectionism of the poor and the rich countries must be viewed together = symbiotically to ensure effective exports by the poor countries. Thus, = even if=20 the doors to the markets of the rich countries were fully open to = imports,=20 exports from the poor countries would have to get past their own doors.=20

We know from = numerous=20 case studies dating back to the 1970s (which only corroborated = elementary=20 economic logic) that protection is often the cause of dismal export, and = hence=20 economic, performance. It creates a “bias against exports” = by sheltering=20 domestic markets that then become more lucrative. Just ask yourself why, = though=20 India and the far-eastern countries faced virtually the same external = trade=20 barriers in the quarter-century after the 1960s, inward-looking India = registered=20 a miserable export performance while outward-looking South Korea, = Taiwan,=20 Singapore and Hong Kong chalked up spectacular exports. Just as charity = begins=20 at home, so exports begin with a good domestic policy. In the = near-exclusive=20 focus on rich-country protectionism, this dramatic lesson has been lost = from=20 view.


A strategy for change

Rich-country = protectionism matters too, of course. And it must be assaulted = effectively. But=20 here, too, we witness folly. The current fashion is to shame the rich = countries=20 by arguing that their protection hurts the poor countries, whose poverty = is the=20 focus of renewed international efforts. And where action is actually = undertaken,=20 the preference is for granting preferences to the poorer countries, with = yet=20 deeper preferences for the poorest among them (the least-developed = countries, or=20 LDCs, as they are now called). But the former = solution is=20 woefully inadequate, and the latter is downright wrong.

If shame = were=20 sufficient, there would be no rich-country protectionism left. Trade = economists=20 and international institutions such as UNCTAD and = the=20 General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (the GATT) = have=20 denounced the rich countries on this count over three decades. Added = support,=20 from charities such as Oxfam, could help in principle. But these = charities need=20 both expertise and a talent for strategy, not simply a conscience and a = voice.=20 They fall short. By subscribing to the counterproductive language of = “hypocrisy”=20 and the rhetoric of “unfair trade” to attack protection by = the rich, a charity=20 such as Oxfam, splendid at fighting plagues and famines, does more harm = than=20 good.

The argument = to rich=20 countries should be made in quite a different way: If you hold on to = your own=20 protection, no matter how much smaller, and in fact even raise it as the = United=20 States did recently with steel tariffs and the farm bill, you are going = to=20 undermine seriously the efforts of those poor-country leaders who have = turned to=20 freer trade in recent decades. It is difficult for such countries to = reduce=20 protection if others, more prosperous and fiercer supporters of free = trade, are=20 breaking ranks.

Beyond this, = an=20 effective tariff-reduction strategy requires that we handle = labour-intensive=20 goods such as textiles separately from agriculture. The differences = between them=20 dwarf the commonalities. Labour-intensive manufactures in the rich = countries=20 typically employ their own poor, the unskilled. To argue that we should=20 eliminate protection, harming them simply because it helps yet poorer = folk=20 abroad, runs into evident ethical (and hence political) difficulties. = The answer=20 must be a gradual, but certain, phase-out of protection coupled with a=20 simultaneous and substantial adjustment and retraining programme. That = way, we=20 address the problems of the poor both at home and abroad.

Once this is = done,=20 church groups and charities can be asked to endorse a programme that is = balanced=20 and just. Such a strategy is morally more compelling than either = marching=20 against free trade to protect workers in the labour-intensive industries = of the=20 rich nations—while forgetting the needs of poor workers in poor = countries—or=20 asking for trade restrictions to be abolished without providing for = workers in=20 such industries in the rich countries.

The removal = of=20 agricultural protection does not raise the same ethical problems; = production and=20 export subsidies in the United States and the European Union go mainly = to large=20 farmers. That should make it easier to dismantle farm protection on the = grounds=20 of helping the poor. At the same time, however, agricultural = protectionism is=20 energetically defended as necessary for preserving greenery and the = environment.=20 With the greens in play, protectionism becomes more difficult to remove. = But,=20 just as income support can be de-linked from increasing production and = exports,=20 so measures to support greenery can be de-linked too. Such new measures, = and=20 other environmental protections added as sweeteners, must be part of the = strategic assault on agricultural protection.

The target = date of=20 Jubilee 2000 helped greatly to focus efforts on the objective of debt = relief.=20 Following that example, I and Arvind Panagariya of the University of = Maryland=20 suggested well over a year ago—with a nod from Kofi Annan, the = UN's secretary general—a Jubilee 2010 movement to = eliminate=20 protection on labour-intensive products by 2010. Since agricultural = protection=20 is politically a harder nut to crack, 2020, rather than 2010, is = probably a more=20 realistic date for its demise. Leaders of rich and poor countries could = endorse=20 both targets at the mammoth UN Conference on = Sustainable=20 Development in Johannesburg in August.


The perils of = preferences

A final word = is=20 necessary on the efforts to open rich-country doors. This is often done = not by=20 dismantling barriers on a most-favoured-nation (MFN) basis,=20 which reduces them in a non-discriminatory manner, but through grants of = preferences to the poor countries. This approach goes back to the = Generalised=20 System of Preferences (GSP), introduced in 1971 = through a=20 waiver and then granted legal status in 1979 with an enabling clause at = the=20 GATT. Under this, the eligible poor countries = were granted=20 entry at preferentially lower tariff rates.

GSP=20 did little for the poor countries. The eligible products often = excluded=20 those on which poor countries had pinned their hopes of increasing = exports. Thus=20 the United States'GSP scheme excluded textiles, = clothing=20 and footwear. Upper caps were also introduced. The United States imposed = a $100m=20 limit on exports per tariff line, per year, per country; beyond this = limit, the=20 preferential rate vanished. Even the benefits granted were not = “bound”, and=20 could be varied at a rich country's displeasure. Thus, when India was = put on the=20 Special 301 list in 1991 and the United States trade representative = determined=20 unilaterally that India's intellectual-property protection was = “unreasonable”,=20 President George Bush senior suspended duty-free privileges under GSP for $60m in trade from India in April 1992. =

Preferences = were also=20 often dropped for commodities when they began to be successfully = exported, a=20 fact documented in a forthcoming study by Caglar Ozden and Eric = Reinhardt of=20 Emory University. Rules of origin served to curb exports, too. Exported = items=20 had to satisfy stringent local-content specifications (for example, = shoes had to=20 have uppers, soles and laces made locally) to qualify for GSP=20 benefits.

The rich = countries are=20 still going down this preferential route today. The United States has = introduced=20 the Africa Growth and Opportunity Act (AGOA), = while the=20 EU has brought in the “everything but = arms” initiative,=20 properly known as the EBE, to eliminate trade = barriers for=20 the 49 LDCs. Yet virtually every drawback of = GSP applies to these schemes as well. If anything, they = are=20 worse. Under the AGOA, for example, preferences = for African=20 garments are tightly linked to reverse preferences for American=20 fabrics.

Since = preferences=20 typically divert trade away from non-preferred countries, they tend to = pitch=20 poor nations against each other. They are also a wasting asset, since = they are=20 relative to an MFN tariff that will probably = decline with=20 further multilateral liberalisation. And since they are non-binding and = can be=20 readily withdrawn for political reasons, investors are not likely to be=20 impressed by them.

Preferences = sound=20 attractive and generous, and the poor countries have accepted them as = such. But=20 this has been a mistake. There is no good substitute for the MFN reduction of trade barriers in the rich countries. = It should=20 go hand in hand with enhanced technical and financial assistance. By = focusing=20 this help preferentially on the poor nations, the poor should be able to = exploit=20 the trade opportunities that are opened up for them by non-preferential=20 treatment. This is the only way ahead.

Jagdish = Bhagwati is=20 University Professor at Columbia University and Andre Meyer Senior = Fellow in=20 International Economics at the Council on Foreign Relations. His most = recently=20 published book is “Free Trade Today” = (Princeton).


 ------=_NextPart_000_0109_01C26BB3.21992D80-- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: The disjunction lies in the manner in which appropriated, distorted, unrevolutionary sentimentalism (it has travelled wherever there exists a middle class; should we thank Charles Dickens for it?) is today unleashed as sublimatory vehicle to Global Aeducated Indian invested indifference to, and deliberate disinterest in, the fascisisation (ugh! what a noun!) of the Indian polity. (Khaa! what a sentence!) The forwarded Farah Naqvi article turns me into Nirupa Roy: everytime she comes into the scene, buckets fill up with tears. Naqvi wants to touch my sensitivities. In the process, she enjoins me to bring in 2 buckets, one under each eye. Precisely because of its sensitivities, her article is a perfect example of how to assuage false (comfortable) anxieties. [I can quote ad infinitum over here. If you want, readers, I'll do it] The continuity lies in always finding the Self as victim, and so implicilty and explicitly not bothering about the shape, size, visage, predilections, of the perpetrator. Please, please, please, please, please, please. Can I be informed about the perpetrators? Ms Naqvi, others, tell us the truth about Gujarat? To talk incessantly, in sentimentalist fashion, about the victims of the Gujarat unfolding-massacre, is to silkily aeducatedly masturbate. Who pissed on Muslims in gujarat? Who crapped on them, wilfully and with full and guaranteed freedom? Who's gorged, and are still gorging, on them? When will I read an ethnography of the Perpetrator, beautifully written? Tell me. Please, please, please, tell me. I am already angst- and guilt-ridden. Don't flog me. I don't need you to throw victim-shit on me. I am doing that all the time myself. Throw perpetrator-crap at me. I will revel in it. Investigate the criminals. Tell me about them. I need to know about them. To hell with sentimentalist coverage and commentary on Gujarat. Get real. Miley sewer meraa tumhara to sewer baney humaraa yours, pp Post your ad on Yahoo! India Autos.Check out the used Maruti, Fiat and Ford models on sale now. --0-2113309266-1035584361=:50517 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Dear All,

Sentimentalism is an ethic, a posture, a mode of representation, a narrative style, a gargoylic closure that emerged in the foment leading to the French Revolution. (I am regurgitating, with tears forming in my eyes, my inability to possess or even read Peter Brooks' classic text on this. I place a bucket under each eye.)

Every human being is equal. Why? Because they cry.

This is a re-statement of: Every human being is equal because they eat, piss, and crap. 

[Sentimentalism's relation to Menippean satire is extremely interesting. In Menippean satire, everyone is equal because everyone gorges, and pisses and craps by the litre and the tonne. In medieval, and even early modern Europe, till the time the peasantry possesses the ability to pamphleteer, Menippean satire is the mode in which the excesses of the rich are represented. With the supersession of mercantilism into primitive accumulation of capital, came a new regime of representation that excluded such expressivities. In an enlightened universe and emergent burgher culture, it was difficult to tell such enteric truths. Refinement was everything.

In a time of the transformation of the peasantry into labour, refinement relegated Menippean satire, and peasant celebration, to the sphere of obscenity. Fathers had banned Rabelais; sons were told to read the later Dryden, or Racine; grandsons, Shaftesbury's moral philosophy. Of course, you could read "well-written" satire. It was witty and intellectual; it never crossed boundaries, Voltaire notwithstanding.

The appropriation of Menippean satire is then filled in in the form of the emergence of sentimentalism. Repression, or the excess of it, finds a new outlet.

There is a change here, in how "excess" is defined. There is an attempt to shift from a fantasy of control to a fantasy of agency.

The latter fantasy, too, is appropriated.

And how. It is turned into a regime of absolute victimisation, an invitation to recognise the absolute overtaking of the subject by external forces not under control. This eminently suited the 19th century European bourgeosie, which drew its strengths from a belief in permanent victimisation. It suited, even more, the ever-in-flux petty bourgeosie, which based its lifestyle on an ethic of humiliation] 

From the French Revolution to commentary on Gujarat is really jumping the gun (what does this idiom mean?). Yet I cannot but help see a disjunction, and one continuity.

The disjunction lies in the manner in which appropriated, distorted, unrevolutionary sentimentalism (it has travelled wherever there exists a middle class; should we thank Charles Dickens for it?) is today unleashed as sublimatory vehicle to Global Aeducated Indian invested indifference to, and deliberate disinterest in, the fascisisation (ugh! what a noun!) of the Indian polity. (Khaa! what a sentence!) The forwarded Farah Naqvi article turns me into Nirupa Roy: everytime she comes into the scene, buckets fill up with tears. Naqvi wants to touch my sensitivities. In the process, she enjoins me to bring in 2 buckets, one under each eye. Precisely because of its sensitivities, her article is a perfect example of how to assuage false (comfortable) anxieties. 

[I can quote ad infinitum over here. If you want, readers, I'll do it]

The continuity lies in always finding the Self as victim, and so implicilty and explicitly not bothering about the shape, size, visage, predilections, of the perpetrator. 

Please, please, please, please, please, please. Can I be informed about the perpetrators? Ms Naqvi, others, tell us the truth about Gujarat?

To talk incessantly, in sentimentalist fashion, about the victims of the Gujarat unfolding-massacre, is to silkily aeducatedly masturbate.

Who pissed on Muslims in gujarat? Who crapped on them, wilfully and with full and guaranteed freedom? Who's gorged, and are still gorging, on them? When will I read an ethnography of the Perpetrator, beautifully written?

Tell me. Please, please, please, tell me. I am already angst- and guilt-ridden. Don't flog me. I don't need you to throw victim-shit on me. I am doing that all the time myself. Throw perpetrator-crap at me. I will revel in it. Investigate the criminals. Tell me about them. I need to know about them.

To hell with sentimentalist coverage and commentary on Gujarat. Get real.

Miley sewer meraa tumhara

to sewer baney humaraa

yours,

pp      

Post your ad on Yahoo! India Autos. Check out the used Maruti, Fiat and Ford models on sale now. --0-2113309266-1035584361=:50517-- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: didn't happen. Let's straighten up the angle of the plane to try place the wingtip = strike within the 65 ft hole area. The hope here is that then the entry point = of the inner wing might come within the area where it was masked by the = later collapse. I'm going to try to create a scenario where there might have = been one point of entry for the fuselage, and a separate one less than 65 ft = away for the wing, creating two holes within a 65 ft area. This would appear = to unsupported by early photographic evidence, but we may be able to argue = that the thick smoke and the water jets at the time obscured it. But it doesn't work. If we straighten the angle to 67 degrees, it only reduces the distance of the wingtip strike from the near edge of the fuselage strike by a few feet. Once we straighten the angle further, = it's almost back to the 90 degree scenario, so there's no point in pursuing = that further. This is before we introduce the impact of the outer wing, which would slice a big hole to the north of the fuselage area. Even if you = ignore the previously examined problem of compaction into the 65 ft depth, then connecting all this up into one hole, creates one of about 140 ft wide before the second wing enters the building. So the scenario of the = fuselage having come in on an angle with the wings parallel and penetrating the = wall is impossible. Did the wing break off and not damage the wall? If so, we should see big chunks of the wing scattered to the south of the main crash site. No = such wreckage exists, so this didn't happen either. What about an explosion? = We have the same problems as with the 90 degree scenario, but worse. Even = if the explosion occurred the instant of collision, the centre point would = be much closer to the southern stretch of the wall, than in the 90 degree scenario, where we were able to place it 77 ft away. A section of wall = more than 100 ft long would be closer to the centre of the blast than the = tail. And if debris was flung out, much of it would have been hurled into the wall. There's no significant damage extending for anything like this = length along the wall. So the scenario of an angled approach with parallel = wings, whether penetrating, breaking off or exploding is impossible. Lets look at a 45 degree approach with tilted wings. Nothing changes as = far as the explosion scenario goes, because the distance between the = exploding fuselage and the wall hasn't changed. An impact scenario still gives a = width way beyond the 65 ft hole. If the plane didn't explode,and fully = impacted from a 45 degree angle with the wings tilted at 45 degrees, the total = impact area would be about 125 ft wide, perhaps split into three separate areas = - inner wing strike, fuselage, and outer wing strike, or perhaps if the sections of wall between the different strike areas collapsed, it would = be one long hole. It makes no difference which wing was titled up or down, = but whichever one was up would have a significant section pass above the building. Every possible scenario has ben examined. Straight approach, angled approach, parallel wings, tilted wings, trying to fit the plane into the building, and trying to construct a credible scenario for an explosion = to explain the lack of wreckage. None of them work. So it's impossible for = a plane of that size to have caused the incident. These results are in spite of the fact that I biased the equations = beyond credibility in favour of the 757 theory. Imagine the results had I = assumed an impact hole of 40 ft, which still would have been orders of magnitude greater than the original hole. This really concludes the argument. When a plane hits a building, the wreckage must be accounted for in one way or another - all of it. Either = it is inside the building, or it is outside the building, or it is disintegrated to nothing. If none of these three happened, then it was = never there. It is acceptable, indeed predictable, for small fragments to be = unaccounted for, but not 99.99% of the plane. The plane weighed about 100 tons, so 1 = ton of alleged wreckage would represent 1% of the plane. The fragments = claimed by some to be wreckage of the plane ( which I will examine later ) would = be srtuggling to represent 0.01% of the plane. Nevertheless, I anticipate that some people will still want to argue = that 2+2 =3D 5, and claim the 757 theory to be still alive on other grounds. So I will now suspend the results of the previous analysis,and examine = other aspects of the case. PART 6. FUEL LOAD ANALYSIS. The previous analysis examined the question of whether it was possible = for the plane to have been cremated in the context of the damage to the = Pentagon wall. It was shown not to be. But is such a cremation possible anyway, = in any situation? The only available source of energy is the plane's fuel. Jet fuel burns at 800 degrees C. Aluminium, from which a large part of a plane is constructed, melts at 660 degrees C. http://www.kitco.com/jewelry/meltingpoints.html During the aluminium recycling process, it is heated to 700 degrees C, = and then poured into moulds. http://203.202.189.6/waste_stop/act_09.htm So it is possible in theory for burning jet fuel to melt aluminium, = although this is not the same as cremating it. Whether it's possible in practice depends upon the ratio of fuel to aluminium and how efficiently it is applied. One look at the shape of an aircraft tells us that it's a very difficult shape to efficiently apply such energy to. Long and thin one way, = crossed at 90 degrees by another section, also long and thin. So if one was to try = to melt a 757 by sitting it in a tub of burning jet fuel, the tub would = have to be a very specifically designed shape, unless you wanted to waste an = awful lot of fuel. No such intelligently designed, controlled and efficient application of fuel can occur in a crash, so even if all of the fuel = burned or exploded, only a small proportion of it could have been applied in an efficient manner to the task of melting the plane. How much fuel was on board? A maximum possible figure can be calculated = from the specifications referenced at the beginning of the article. According = to the official story, the plane left Dulles, flew about 400 miles to = Ohio,and then 300 back to Washington before crashing - about 15.7 % of it's = maximum range. So if it had a full tank on departure, then the most fuel it can = have had when it crashed was about 85 % of it's maximum capacity. This is = 9765 gallons. The maximum take off weight of the plane is 255,00 lbs. Let's assume a rounded figure of 200,000 lbs of aluminium and other materials = in this plane. I'll call it 180,000 lbs of aluminium. This is a guess, but not a completely uneducated one. According to http://www.bath.ac.uk/~en0daar/Materials.htm about 80% of the structural material of a plane is aluminium, although = it doesn't specify whether this is by weight or volume. If we assume that = it refers to weight, then if the plane's weight - minus the fuel load was 200,000 lbs at take off, this gives a figure of 160,000lb of = aluminium.Tthe other significant materials are steel and titanium. (See the above link) Since both steel and titanium have higher melting points than aluminium, http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Ti/heat.html http://www.chemicalelements.com/elements/fe.html thus increasing the work needing to be done by the burning fuel, a = factor which then needs to be offset by such materials as glass and plastic, = then assuming the other 40,000 lbs of plane weight to be roughly equivilant = to another 20,000 lbs of aluminium in terms of the energy required to melt = the plane would appear to give an accurate enough estimation for the = analysis which follows. Such crude approximations are only a problem if the result is marginal, = so lets see if it is. It means that each gallon of fuel, even applied with intelligent = efficiency would have to melt about 18.5 lbs of aluminium. Does this sound = possible? Assume a 50 % efficiency rate, which would seem extraordinarily = generous. The result is the equivalent of half the available fuel being applied = with intelligently designed efficiency, and the other half being completely wasted. So the equivalent ratio for the problem is the need for each = gallon of fuel being able to melt 37 lbs of aluminium, in a controlled and = designed situation. Let's translate this data into an everyday example. 1 gallon is about = the size of the small emergency fuel cans that motorists carry. 1 lb of Aluminium makes about 29 and a half standard soft drink cans. http://www.westfield-ma.com/tips/aluminium.htm So 37 lbs of aluminium is about 1090 cans. Can you melt 1090 aluminium = cans with a 1 gallon can of kerosine? Let's reduce the alleged cremation of = AA 77 to a crude model with a scale about 1 to 10,000. This model is extremely crude, but nowhere as crude as simply saying "The plane burned - end of thought process." The model doesn't take into account other materials = such as glass, plastic, fibreglass, steel, titanium etc. And the scaling is extremely rough. But the only point in exploring this model further = would be if it gave any indication that the melting of the aircraft was even = remotely possible. Reduce the fuel load to a scale of 1 to 10,000 - about 1 = gallon, and then halve it to account for the 50 % efficiency. Reduce the weight = of the plane to the same scale - about 18 lbs of aluminium. Reduce total = cubic volume of the plane by the same scale, in order to keep the same weight = to size ratio- and material to air ratio. This means reducing the = dimensions to a scale of about 1 to 22. ( 22 times 22 times 22 =3D close enough to = 10,000 ) The result is a fuselage about 7 ft long, about 6 inches wide and about = 7 inches high, with a very thin cross section representing the wings, = about 5 ft 6 in long. This structure is made from 18 lbs of aluminum - about 530 compressed aluminium cans. To give an idea of the density, each foot of = the fuselage would contain about 70 cans worth of metal. Fill a section in = the middle with half a gallon of kerosine and set fire to it, and see if you = can melt it. Better still, attach a fuse to a small firecracker placed = inside, to give the fuel the best chance of going up in one sudden catastrophic explosion, rather than burning slowly, to see if we can not just melt, = but actually cremate the model - reduce it to a pile of dust and ashes. It = is of course, impossible. Lets look at the small scale model from a different angle. 1 gallon is = about 12 standard soft drink cans. So we need 12 cans worth of kerosine to = melt 530 cans. That's about 44 cans to be melted for each full can of = kerosine. Expressed another way, take one standard soft drink can, a scew top lid = from a cordial botlle, put two lidfuls of kerosine into the can, drop in a = match and see if it melts. 1 gallon of kerosine cannot melt 18 lbs of aluminium even in the most efficiently applied, controlled situation one could devise. And we're only talking about melting, not cremation. Even if this = ridiculous scenario was possible, we should see a big block of something = approaching 100 tons of melted aluminium somewhere. This would be a little hard to = miss, if it was there. The US government may be the most powerful on Earth, but if it believes = that it has invented legislation that changes or suspends the laws of = physics, then it needs a reality check. Things can only happen if there is enough energy to drive the process. All such processes are calculable and predictable. If there was insufficient energy for an alleged event, then = it never happened. There wasn't enough energy in the fuel load to melt, let alone cremate the plane, which means that it didn't happen. Once more, the argument is concluded, but for the sake of hard line sceptics, lets move on to another aspect. PART 7. WERE THE LAWS OF PHYSICS DIFFERENT ON SEPT 11? There are some who like to point to the WTC crashes to make the point = that planes can and do explode into nothing in a crash. It is curious that = the only examples which can be found of this allegedly explosive cremation = of crashing planes just happens to be on Sept 11, 2001. A thorough = examination of the history of aviation disasters on any other day shows that this = simply doesn't happen. This will be demonstrated by a library of aviation = disaster photos to be presented shortly. Unless the laws of physics were different on sept 11 2001, all that the = WTC crashes demonstrate is that these planes must have been loaded with explosives, because a tank of kerosine does not have the capability for = that kind of explosive force without the input of an extra energy source, nor = the total available energy to do the job. Following is a series of photos of planes which crashed into mountains, nosedived into the ground, collided with other aircraft, crashed on take off, crashed into buildings, = streets or forests, had bombs planted aboard them, or crashed next to petrol = stations. Note the remarkably intact wreckage compared to what happened in the WTC crashes and what is alleged to have happened in to AA 77. Not all of the crashes are entirely comparable in terms of impact and = fuel load, but there are enough different situations here to make the point = that total cremation of crashing aircraft, without the input of additional = energy other than the fuel load does not and cannot happen. Here's a good comparison. An American Airlines Boeing 757 which crashed = into a mountain. http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w951220.htm Here's three more 757 crashes and a 767 http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/britannia226/1.shtml http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/transavia.1/1.shtml http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/xiamen8301/1.shtml http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/lauda004/1.shtml This plane crashed into a field 80 degrees nose down. http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/yr-lcc/photo.shtml This DC 10 crashed into a mountain. http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w791128.htm This one crashed right next to a petrol station and still didn't blow anything up. http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/swa1455/1.shtml And here's a whole lot of other crashes This is what real wreckage of = real plane crashes looks like. http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/aa1420/1.shtml http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/korean1533/1.shtml http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w651111.htm http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/hapag-lloyd3378/2.shtml http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w601216.htm http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w551101.htm http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w920928.htm http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w850219.htm http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w820709.htm http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w720618.htm http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w650520.htm http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/f-ogqs/photo.shtml http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/crossair3597/1.shtml http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/aa587exclusive/25.shtml http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/vladivostokavia/4.shtml http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/sq006/4.shtml http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/af-concorde/6.shtml http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/allianceairlines7412/1.shtml http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/airphilippines541/1.shtml http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/airfrance.3/1.shtml http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/alaska261/2.shtml http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/qantas001/3.shtml http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/uni873/2.shtml http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w580206.htm http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w000419.htm Wreckage photos of the plane which crashed into the Empire State = Building in 1945 are unclear, but here is a description of the wreckage. http://history1900s.about.com/library/misc/blempirecrash.htm [[Some debris from the crash fell to the streets below, sending = pedestrians scurrying for cover, but most fell onto the buildings setbacks at the = fifth floor.Still, a bulk of wreckage remained stuck in the side of the = building. After the flames were extinguished and the remains of the victims = removed, the rest of the wreckage was removed through the building.]] Here's the wreckage of the cessna which crashed into a building in Tampa = in Jan 2002. http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/01/06/tampa.crash/ That should be enough to make the point. But in case you want to see = more, these sites - from which the above photos were sourced, http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/ http://www.planecrashinfo.com/ http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/ have photos of hundreds more crashes which I haven't linked to = individually. In the first list, they are listed from top to bottom by date. One = famous date is conspicuous by it's absence. Sept 11, 2001. There were 4 plane crashes that day. But none of them left any wreckage. What it means is = that the WTC crash planes and whatever hit the Pentagon were destroyed with powerful explosives. Information about UAL 93 has been so scarce that = its hard to comment. ( Why the secrecy ? )The preceeding photos demonstrate = that the WTC crashes were unique in aviation history. It's already been demonstrated that a full tank of jet fuel doesn't have the available = energy to do the job. The analysis below demonstrates from a different perspective why crashed planes do not explode in massively destructive fireballs. Kerosine (jet fuel) is not a volatile enough material. But what would happen, just supposing we could get a fuel tank to blow up? Although jet fuel is not = a particularly explosive substance, it is possible to get it to explode in some situations. Because it so rarely happens, we are forced to examine a different kind = of air disaster - TWA 800, which blew up in mid air, shortly after take = off. The official story is that it was caused by an exploding fuel tank. = Sceptics say that it was hit by a missile. Regardless of which it was, there was plenty of wreckage.The following analysis of arguments relating to TWA = 800, demonstrate that both sides of the argument act to debunk the official = story of AA 77. If it was hit by a missile, then it demonstrates that even an impact of this ferocity still doesn't reduce a plane to dust and ashes, = and doesn't set off a catastrophic fuel tank inferno capable of cremating a plane. If the official story is true, then the arguments put forward to support it (several years before AA 77) act as inadvertent rebuttals to = the official AA 77 story. In this article on TWA 800, Petroleum engineering research offers clue = to TWA 800 explosion by David S Salisbury, http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/report/news/july30/twa800.html he discusses a theory put forward by Stanford University Professor = Sullivan S. Marsden about why TWA 800 exploded. Professor Sullivan has had to = propose a very complex set of circumstances to try to explain how such a unique event as the alleged explosion of a fuel tank could have occurred. Salsibury writes [[Jet fuel normally is not explosive at temperatures below 100 degrees Fahrenheit. But on TWA 800 the air-conditioner heat exchangers probably warmed the air/fuel mixture in the tank above that point. When the = aircraft is flying, the energy given off by the heat exchangers is effectively dissipated to the outside air. But when the air conditioners are run = while the aircraft is on the ground and the tank is nearly empty, the heat exchangers put out enough heat to raise the temperature of the air/fuel mixture into the danger zone, Marsden says. ]] In other words, it's impossible to blow up a full tank of fuel, without input of extra energy, because the air /fuel mixture isn't right, and = the presence of the full fuel load cools it to below explosive temperature. = Even a full fuel tank falls ridiculously short of the energy required to even melt a plane, let alone cremate it, and this theory is saying that the = only real risk of an explosion is with a near empty tank. Which is why TWA = didn't get blown into nothing . And why it simply can't happen, even when = planes have bombs planted aboard or are shot down. TWA 800 was a 747. Marsden's theory cited very specific concerns with = the fuel delivery systems of 747s. Whether or not his ideas on TWA 800 are plausible, what it demonstrates is that aviation experts, even when concocting cover stories for the government, if this is what Marsden was doing, do not accept that aircraft simply explode and are cremated as a matter of course. It's a very complex argument to try to explain how a = fuel tank might have exploded. Or at least, that was the official view before Sept 11, 2001 Sceptics claim that even Marsden's theory is ludicrously overestimating = the explosive capabilities of jet fuel. From this Washington post article. http://members.aol.com/bardonia/washtime.htm [[September 27, 1997 William S. Donaldson says the "misted fuel" in the airliner's center = wing tank wasn't hot enough to explode and that only a blast outside the plane could have set = off the chain of events. Legislator Probes TWA 800 Countertheory Congress has quietly begun = probing a retired Navy officer's claim that jet fuel in TWA flight 800's center = wing tank was too cold to explode without being first shaken into a volatile mist. William S. Donaldson's assertion challenges virtually every = remaining theory of the NTSB in its search for the cause of the July 17 .... = crash. Rep. James A. Traficant Jr., Ohio Democrat, who has been probing the = issue virtually alone, was asked by aviation subcommittee Chairman John J. = Duncan Jr., Tennessee Republican to "investigate all the circumstances" and = report back. Mr. Duncan ordered staff help for Mr. Traficant, whose staff has consulted with Mr. Donaldson. "You could basically sit in that tank with = a lit cigarette and snuff the cigarette out in the fuel and it won't = explode," said Paul Marcone, Mr.. Traficant's top aide. "Your agency has been depicting the volatility of the fuel as if it were nitrobenzene," the = former navy jet pilot said in a combative letter to NTSB Chairman James E. = Hall, accusing him of covering up important facts and basing his judgments on fuel-temperature testing done on the ground in a desert. he said the = fuel never reached the danger point of 127 degrees Fahrenheit and believes = only an explosion outside the plane could have set off the chain of events.]] This is a significant comment. [[ "You could basically sit in that tank = with a lit cigarette and snuff the cigarette out in the fuel and it won't explode... Your agency has been depicting the volatility of the fuel as = if it were nitrobenzene." ]] 5 years later, with the occurrence of the Sept 11 crashes, the allegedly explosive nature of jet fuel has been further ramped up to the power of dynamite. Of course ,the article also cites opinions rebutting Donaldson's = remarks, but it reinforces the point that a glib statement that "AA 77 blew up = and disintegrated to nothing - perfectly normal, end of story, what's the = all argument about? " is not credible. The controversy over TWA 800 continues, shedding more light on how ridiculous is the claim that it was a full fuel load which blew AA 77 = into nothing. In this extract, a supporter of the official TWA 800 story = suggests that a full fuel tank is safer than an empty one. http://members.aol.com/bardonia/prime.htm (June 1997) [[Large airliners don't need to fill up all their fuel tanks for most of their flights. They save money and reduce the risk of accidents by not carrying excess fuel. Loeb sees a hazard in this. TWA 800, with no more = than 100 gallons of fuel in its big center wing fuel tank, had been waiting = two hours to take off. Loeb claimed on PrimeTime Live that its = air-conditioning packs, located beneath the fuel tank, heated the fuel enough to vaporize some of it, creating what host Sam Donaldson called "a virtual bomb = ready to explode." Loeb admitted that the investigators had not been able to find anything that might have ignited this "bomb," but he brushed that aside, saying if there had been no explosive vapor, there would have been no accident. ]] So, even those who are claiming that TWA 800 went down because of an exploding fuel tank, have as a central part of their theory, that a full fuel tank reduces the risk of explosion. From the same article [[The New York Times reported that the NTSB planned to set off a 747 = center wing fuel tank explosion this year to see if the vapor from 100 gallons = of fuel would have enough force to break a 747 in two. That important test = has not been made, and there are no plans to make it. Instead, the NTSB = plans to explode a small bomb near the center wing fuel tank of a 747 in England = in July to see what kind of damage a small shaped charge will do and "more importantly," they say, what sound it will make. ]] So they're arguing about whether an exploding fuel tank can even break a plane in two, not whether it can reduce it to dust and ashes. According = to their theories, it can't explode if it's full (it still wouldn't have = enough energy anyway) and if it's empty enough to explode, it's arguable = whether it could break a plane in two. Another article about TWA 800 Herald International Tribune July 24 1996 http://www.aircrash.org/burnelli/ht960724.htm [["If it was an accident, it would scare the hell out of us," said = Michael Barr, director of aviation safety programs at the University of Southern California. "These planes just don't blow up. There's too many fire = walls, too many checks and balances.' Chrisotpher Ronay is equally troubled. As head of the FBI bomb unit for seven years, he investigated 30 aircraft bombings before retiring in = 1994. "I can't recall anything that has had a catastrophic effect like this = case," he said. "You could blow the hell out of a cargo compartment with a = luggage bomb, but you have to blow up a fuel cell or an engine to get an = explosion like that." ]] And yet, this explosion, of a violence unprecedented in aviation history still left lots of wreckage. http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/twa800/1.shtml From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: [[The specific fuel involved is called Jet A, a derivative of kerosene = and a sluggish explosive. To explode, it must mix with air, an indication that = one or more of the eight fuel cells in the jumbo jet's wings were breached--either by violent engine or mechanical failure, by a well- = placed bomb or possibly by a missile. There have been cases of sudden mechanical failure that caused fire and = the loss of aircraft. An Air Force C-141 transport plane crashed in Europe = in the late 1970s when an engine exploded; spraying hot fragments that = ignited paint in a cargo hold. A Boeing 767 ripped to pieces over Thailand in 1991 when a computer = error caused one engine to deploy its reverse thruster, sending the plane into = a vicious spin. But in neither case was there a cataclysmic explosion. Before TWA 800 went down last week, there had never been an explosion of such ferocity aboard a 747-100, a 'wet-wing,' or plane that carries all = its fuel in wing tanks. "You have to have instant ignition into a large fuel source," said Mr. = Barr, who trains accident investigators. "The way those fuel tanks are sealed, = it just doesn't happen." Few bombings of commercial aircraft have ended in such a fiery = conclusion. In many cases, jetliners have survived even severe damage from = explosions and landed safely. In 1986, terrorists planted a sheet of plastic explosive the size of a business letter under one seat on a TWA flight from Rome to Athens. The explosion killed one man, blowing his seat out of the plane. A = grandmother, daughter and grandchild were sucked out of the resulting hole. But the = plane survived. In the 1988 crash of Pan Am 103 at Lockerbie, Scotland, there was no = fiery explosion- until fuel-laden parts of the plane hit the ground. In that case, a bomb using 10 to 14 ounces (about 340 grams) of a = plastic explosive was hidden in a radio cassette player. When detonated by a = amine device, it blew a hole in the fuselage skin, which rapidly fractured and peeled away. The plane broke into five sections that tumbled to Earth = over the Scottish countryside. ]] This mentions a fiery explosion at the Lockerbie site, when fuel laden = parts hit the ground. I'm not saying that no explosion can occur. What I'm = saying is that it's not easily triggered, and doesn't have enough energy to = cremate a plane. In the case of the Lockerbie bombing, the bomb itself was not enough to trigger an explosion of the fuel tank. Since the plane broke = up into five sections, the impact of the exploding fuel upon the full = wreckage could not be tested. Here's one section of the wreckage. http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/panam103/1.shtml So if a bomb, breaking a plane into 5 pieces, still doesn't trigger a = sudden explosion of the fuel tank, then what does? Crashing into something = solid, like a mountain or a building - but apparently only on sept 11, = 2001.There's no evidence that an explosion of the type and power alleged to have = cremated AA 77 or the WTC planes has ever happened to any other plane, or ever = could in the situation of a normal crash. Although the political circumstance behind the Sept 11 crashes, and (in the case of WTC crash 2 ) the spectacular imagery involved was unprecedented, there was nothing = unusual in the impact physics of the crashes. Planes regularly crash into = mountains, streets, the ground, buildings and other planes, and are not cremated. Web author Jack Cashill writes (August 16 2001) http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=3D24075 [[Until recently, the only listed "fuel tank explosion" in the 80-year history of airline disasters was a Philippine Air Lines 737 that blew = while the plane was backing out a Manila airport gate in May of 1990. And even this case is suspect. ]] In all of these cases significant wreckage - at least - survived. In = some cases, the whole plane. So many are saying that even the alleged = explosion of jet fuel aboard TWA 800, which left plenty of identifiable wreckage, = was impossible. If the official story on TWA 800 is a cover up, then the = fuel tank never exploded, and the whole matter of an allegedly exploding fuel tank even breaking a plane in two is an outrageous lie. If the official story is correct, or at least genuinely plausible, then fuel tank = explosions are only a risk with near empty tanks, and don't have anything like the necessary energy to disintegrate a plane. And photographic records of aviation disasters demonstrate that fuel tank explosions don't happen as = a result of regular crashes, or if they do they don't cremate the planes. In the entire history of aviation, only four passenger jets have ever exploded into nothing, or are alleged to have done so as a result of a crash. All four just happen to have been the Sept 11 planes. And in the = case of the WTC, the impact surface was mostly glass - about as soft a target = as a plane can hit, with the possible exception of water. So this debunks = any assertion that the alleged explosion of AA 77 was a result of being = flown into a fiercely resistant surface, which itself is already debunked by examples of planes which flew into mountains and weren't cremated, = including the earlier linked photo of an American Airlines 757 which crashed into = a mountain. That's about as conclusive a comparison as one can get. The = only possible conclusion is that the WTC planes had powerful explosives = aboard, and that whatever hit the Pentagon was a much smaller object, also = destroyed by explosives. Not only was the alleged explosion of AA 77 impossible in the context of = the modest damage to the Pentagon wall , and impossible because there wasn't enough energy in the fuel - it's also been shown anecdotally to be impossible in the context of aviation history. Nevertheless, I'm once again going to suspend these findings, to examine another aspect. PART 8. "BUT WRECKAGE WAS FOUND." So lets have a look at the photos of the alleged wreckage. http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/11.jpg http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/12.jpg http://www.mdw.army.mil/news/news_photos/911/pages/planepiece.html http://www.dtic.mil/armylink/photos/Sep2001/roll4112.jpg Additional to the fact that this represents less than 0.1 % of the = volume of the alleged plane, what evidence is there that any of this was once part = of a Boeing 757 ? It could be from anything. We know that something hit the Pentagon, that there was an explosion, and that where there is a add your comments Part 2 posted at by Gerard Holmgren . Wednesday October 23, 2002 at 02:33 AM Physical and mathematical analysis of Pentagon crash Part 2 by Gerard holmgren . Wednesday October 23, 2002 at 02:25 AM investigation77 at hotmail.com Continues from part 1, http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2002/10/1538136.php which was cut short while uploading Additional to the fact that this represents less than 0.1 % of the volume of the alleged plane, what = evidence is there that any of this was once part of a Boeing 757 ? It could be = from anything. We know that something hit the Pentagon, that there was an explosion, and that where there is an explosion there will be debris of = some sort. To argue that this provides any evidence for either side of the argument = is witchcraft trial logic. " You must be a witch, because you wouldn't have been accused if you weren't ". " We know that a 757 was there. That proves that this is debris from a = 757. And the fact that this is debris from a 757 proves that it was there... = " This debris is totally unidentifiable, and it's volume is too = insignificant to adress the problem of unaccounted for wreckage. Supporters of the 757 theory claim this fragment to be wreckage from AA = 77, citing the AA colours as proof. http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/13.jpg In fact, it is the alleged AA colours which prove conclusively that this cannot possibly be part of the alleged plane. Has American Airlines = invented a new kind of indestructible paint? This fragment has allegedly been violently flung out from an explosion which reduced a giant airliner to = the dust and ashes and unidentifiable tiny fragments shown in the above = photo. And yet the paint is as shiny and new as the day it was applied. Does it take more energy to peel and blacken paint, than to destroy 100 tons of aircraft? Clearly painted sections survive most crashes, as shown in the crash photos. But in those cases, no one is alleging an explosion catastrophic enough to vaporize 100 tons of plane. They break up and = perhaps burn a bit. In really fierce crashes, some of the plane may actually be destroyed, but even in these cases, tons of reasonaly intact wreckage remains. So these scenarios are consistent with the recovery of painted sections, even in bad crashes. The allegation that this brightly painted fragment survived is irreconcilable with the claim that 99.99% of the = plane was vapourized. This is about as believable as the stories that the alleged hijackers = were identified by the discovery of their miraculously unscathed passports at crash sites which cremated the planes and occupants. The metal is also = shiny and new looking, and there is no sign of grass singeing from the heat in = the area where it landed. It is quite impossible for this to be from an = aircraft which had just been reduced to a pile of ashes. I anticipate an accusation of inconsistency here. "First you complain that wreckage is not identifiable, then when it is, = you say that such identification would be impossible, proving it's a fake." Not so. The photos shown earlier were examples of identifiable and = credible wreckage. There's a further problem with this piece of wreckage. The colours are = wrong anyway. Take a close look at the colour scheme used by American = Airlines. First, note that the alleged wreckage has a white stripe next to red = which is of a larger area than the white stripe. Note the absence of any blue stripe.Now let's look at some actual AA plane photos and you'll see that that this colour scheme isn't used. Except possibly in the American = Airlines lettering on the top front part of the fuselage, a point I'll come back = to. This link will take you to a page with thumbnail photos of American = Airlines planes. I chose not to supply the direct links to the enlarged = thumbnails, because the URLs were extraordinarily long,and faced a significant risk = of breaking once published on the web. http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?airlinesearch=3DAmerican%20A= irlin es&distinct_entry=3Dtrue Note that the striped colour scheme which the crude fake has attempted = to copy does not appear on the wings or tail fins. The reason I make this point, is that this rules out the possibility that this piece of the = plane was sheared off during the approach, before the explosion, by hitting a lightpole. If there's any possibility that it's a genuine AA colour = scheme, it can only have come from part of the American Airlines lettering, on = the top and front part of the fuselage, which means that this piece could = not have been sheared off on the way in, and therefore must have been = subject to the explosion. And that is impossible, even if we were to pretend that = such an explosion was generally possible. Furthermore the only part of the = plane which it could possibly have come from is towards the front. If the explosion occurred in the middle of the plane, debris from the front = area would have been flung forwards into the building not away from it. And = if the explosion occurred in the front part of the plane, making it = possible to blow this piece backwards, then this area of the plane would have been subject to the most powerful part of the blast, so if we were going to = see surviving pieces of debris flung backwards, (especially with paintwork = still intact ) they should be from the rear of the plane. And if it's alleged = that it was thrown forward with such force that it hit something else and = bounced back all this distance, wouldn't the paintwork, be just a little = scratched? Whoever designed and planted this fake, didn't think it through. PART 9. DNA TESTING Authorities would have us believe that 63 of the 64 people aboard AA 77 = were identified from DNA testing. This link http://www.giveyourvoice.com/dna-faq.html (See question 20) explains why DNA testing is not able to identify all of the WTC victims. Because DNA is destroyed by high temperatures. Read any article or = technical paper on DNA storage and sampling, and it will mention the critical role = of correct temperature in maintaining the integrity of the samples. And = they're not talking about temperatures above 600 degrees C as being destructive, = but temperatures below 150. It needed a minimum temperature of 660 to melt = the plane. Actually, a lot more because it would have to have been 660 = minimum, at the extremities, so it would have been much higher in most of the = centre fuselage where the people were. The temperatures required to cremate it = are almost unimaginable. And yet we are supposed to believe both stories, = that nothing remains of the plane, but 63 of 64 victims still had their DNA intact, while at the same time the heat generated in the WTC is a = serious obstacle to DNA testing. We were told that even many victims of the Bali bombing in Oct 2002 = might never be identified. http://news.ninemsn.com.au/World/story_40740.asp [[ The equipment included medical supplies, DNA testing facilities and refrigerated containers to ease the crisis at Denpasar's vastly = overworked makeshift morgue. But officials admitted today the carnage was so horrific that technology would make no difference in some cases. "It's highly likely that some victims will be unable to be identified," = said Australia's consul-general in Bali, Ross Tysoe. Foreign Minister Alexander Downer, visiting the scene for the first = time, said: "Many of them are burnt beyond recognition." Those close to the deadliest of the two explosions, at Sari's nightclub = in the Kuta tourist strip, would have "disintegrated", Mr Downer said. ]] And yet we are supposed to believe that those at the centre of a blast = which vapourized a 100 ton aircraft left DNA which tested 98.4% successful. To analogize this it's worth going back to the 1 to 10,000 scale model. = It's like suggesting that before you set fire to it, you placed inside 64 = small pieces of plant or animal material. After the catastrophic explosion of = the 1/2 gallon of kerosine successfully reduced the 18 lb aluminium model to dust and ashes, 63 of the 64 pieces of material inside, were still able = to be successfully DNA tested. PART 10. THE HOLE IN THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WALL This photo shows a hole punched through the Pentagon wall at the back of = the damaged area. http://www.mediacen.navy.mil/pubs/allhands/nov01/war18.jpg Lets find it's exact location. In the next photo, scroll to the bottom and look approximately in the = middle of the photo, at the back of the third ring, below the second set of = windows to the right of the bridge between the rings, casting a large shadow = You'll see the top half of a circular hole. http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/16.jpg Here's the same scene from a different angle.You can now see all of the = hole . http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/17.jpg It appears to be at angle of something like 45 degrees from the first = ring damage area. How much stone has been penetrated to make this hole? = Assuming no internal walls, 6 walls. If each wall is 3 feet thick, that's 18 ft = of stone, plus or minus any inaccuracy of the guess of the thickness of the walls, perhaps plus anything that was in the way, inside the buildings. Because its at a 45 degree angle, whatever has made it has actually had = to punch out 27 ft of stone. An explosion that digs tunnels? Not even the hard line 757 enthusiasts = are suggesting that this was caused by the impossible explosion. The logical explanation is a missile. The 757 supporters claim that it was punched through the wall by one of the plane's engines. The engines are mounted on the wings. The wings were allegedly cremated. = How did the engine not only escape disintegration, but propel itself forward = two to three rings beyond where any of the rest of the plane got to? (Three rings beyond refers to some scenarios that the plane never actually penetrated the building but crashed just outside). There are only two available energy sources for any part of the plane to move through the wall. The momentum of the plane,and the alleged force = of the explosion. If the energy source was the latter, why did it propel = one small part of the plane forward, while destroying the rest of it? And if = the energy source was the momentum of the plane, why hasn't the 100 ton = fuselage burst through the rings, instead of the 6 ton engine? I'm going to try to construct the best argument I can that this was = caused by an engine. The engine became disconnected from the wing before the = plane blew up. Otherwise the engine would have blown up too. The engine must have been jolted free of the wing and propelled forward = by it's existing motion at the same time as something else stopped the rest = of the plane in it's tracks. By the time the explosion happened, the engine = was out of range of the destructive blast, and already punching it's way = through the wall. Why did the engine burst free? As the plane was approaching = the building, the wing hit a light pole weakening the mountings around the engine so that it was hanging by a thread. As the nose slammed into the wall, or perhaps the plane hit the ground just in front of the wall, the resultant change of momentum stopped the plane very quickly, jolting the engine free. It fired into the wall, bursting through as the plane blew = up. That's the best I can do, but there are huge problems. For a start, the engine weighed about 6 tons, according to these specifications for similar engines http://home.swipnet.se/~w-48037/l1011techsp.htm (Note: The weights listed next to the engine on the Boeing technical = site referenced at the beginning of the article, do not refer to the engine's weight, but to its thrust power.) Its a little difficult to imagine that the mountings attatching an = engine of this weight could be so critically weakened by hitting a pole, but never mind - ignoring reality has become a regular necessity for any attempt = to keep the 757 theory alive. Lets press on. If we speculate that the nose of the 100 ton plane hit the wall,and = stopped dead, hardly penetrating, then we can't seriously suggest that an = engine, 6% of the weight, now travelling at a lesser speed than what the plane = would have been doing when it hit the wall, could punch it's way through three rings. If the plane hit the ground, and stopped dead, a few feet from = the wall, and then blew up, where is the 155ft fuselage crater,and the = sideways damage from the wings? That's without the explosion. Where is the circle = of devastation which should be a radius of something more than 77 ft? This photo demonstrates that this didn't happen. http://66.129.143.7/june2aa.htm If the engine didn't detach until after the explosion then it can't have outrun the blast. Everything would have been blown up together. If the engine detached from the shock of impact, as the nose hit the wall, and = then flew towards the wall, the nose had no reason to stop penetrating the = wall until the explosion blew it up. This means that the nose was always = further forward than the engine, so if the nose is blown up, so is the engine. = If we postulate an angle for the plane and a position for the nose, to try to create a scenario that the engine shoots wide of the blast area, then = it's also shooting wide of the impact area. You'd have to produce evidence of = a second entry point. Whichever engine it was, it has to pass through the = 65 ft hole area, and in any scenario where the nose penetrates the wall, = it's going to pass through later than the nose. And since they must both be travelling into the building at the same angle, then the distance = between them will never widen as a result of angle. So unless you want to suggest that the engine actually fired from the = wing before the impact ( like a missile ), then any scenario which has the = nose penetrating the wall is impossible. In case someone suggests that the = engine fired off immediately upon hitting a light pole, I'll point out that = they're built to withstand that kind of contact, and even if they weren't, that would knock the engine backwards, not shoot it ahead of the plane. In = fact, whatever the cause of it's detachment, if it came off when the plane was still moving, it's impossible for it to have been fired off faster than = what the plane was moving, so if anything happened beforehand, it would have fallen off, not shot forward like a missile. If the scenario involving the nose hitting the wall is impossible, and = the scenario of the nose not hitting the wall is also impossible, then it = didn't happen. So it was a missile. But lets pretend that the previous analysis doesn't exist and look at other aspects of this question, pretending that the = engine theory is still alive. Lets pretend that it was possible for the plane to stop short of the = wall and blow up outside, ignoring the lack of damage to the lawns, and say = that the engine was jolted free by the previously speculated method, and = managed to outrun the blast, before the plane blew up. If the plane was doing 400 mph when it suddenly stopped, and the engine = flew off at a speed of about 300 mph, then it was travelling towards the wall = at about 440 ft per second. The way the engines are mounted on a 757 http://www.airliners.net/open.file/281582/L/ The engine would have about 60 ft to travel to strike the wall, allowing = for the plane stopping 5 ft short of the wall. (90 degree fuselage angle) Angling the fuselage at 45 degrees to make the engine's flight path compatible with the direction of the third ring hole, makes negligible difference to the distance from engine to wall, as long we postulate = that it was the inner wing engine. If it was the outer wing, it has to travel = about 120 ft to strike the wall. Also, the effective horizontal width created = to the north (assuming the plane to have approached from the south) by the outer engine angle, means that the front of the fuselage has to be = placed hard against the right edge of the 65 ft hole, to fit the engine's entry point into the damaged area. This is significant, because we are now postulating a scenario where the wall suffered no impact other than the engine strike and the explosion. It's impossible to make a credible case = for the fuselage cremation happening hard up against the edge of the hole, = when just a few feet away windows were unbroken. So we need to assume that it = was the inner engine. This enables the nose to be placed close to the centre = of the area of 65 ft damage, while still allowing the engine to fire = through the damaged area, avoiding the problem of having to suggest a = non-existent second entry point. So the engine had about 60 ft to travel to the wall. At 440 ft per = second this would take close enough to 150 milliseconds. If the plane blew up before this, the engine would be toasted along with everything else, = because it's travelling a line which takes the inner side of it only 15 ft from = the exploding fuselage. So even if had reached the wall, that still wouldn't save it. We really need to give it time to burrow into the wall a safe distance from the blast. If it's speed halved to 220 ft per second, when = it struck the wall, then it would take about another 50 ms to fully enter = it's 11.5 ft length into the wall, and we need to allow another 50 ms for it = to burrow a further 10 ft to be safe. Even this might not be enough because = it' s penetration path is crossing the middle of the 65 ft hole, in front of where the nose is blowing up - the part of the wall that would be = subject to the most force. It might need another 50 ms of burrowing. So to keep the engine safe from the blast, we have to postulate a delay of 250 to 300 = ms after the plane crashed, before it blew up. Instinctively, this seems impossible, although I can't produce hard data to prove it. But the = scenario as a whole is impossible. This is what had to happen. The plane can't have hit with the nose = pointing sharply down into the ground, because then the engine would have been = fired into the ground. So it had to land just about level, but stop dead - = like a sudden 90 degree belly flop straight out of a momentum of 400 mph. Then = we have to postulate a 250 to 300 ms delay, before it suddenly blows up = with a ferocity never before seen in aviation history. During this delay, we = have to postulate that it didn't break up significantly, otherwise other = parts of wreckage would have gone flying off and also escaped the blast. Then it suddenly cremated itself, and did all this without damaging the lawns = that it belly flopped on to. Impossible. Postulating tilted wings to try to change distances and angles only = makes it worse. If the wings were tilted at 45 degrees, then the lowest point of = the upper engine is about 55 ft off the ground, and the the lowest point of = the lower engine is about 20 ft off the ground. Since the hole is at ground level, you'd have to describe a precise downwards angle for the nose to = get the engine to finish up at ground level after its penetration through = the rings. But the bigger problem here is that the nose can't have hit the ground with the wings tilted, because the lower wing would have broken = off first. This makes it rather difficult to suggest the sudden stop = necessary to fire off the upper engine wing with any speed. When is the sudden = jolt ? When the wing breaks off, or when the nose hits? We probably have to speculate a halved speed for the engine now - if it could still happen = at all - meaning that the delay before the explosion is now 500 - 600 ms, = which is getting quite ridiculous, and the engine is now lacking the power it needs to have any chance of charging through 27 ft of stone, which is = now a bit more, because its being fired from a raised angle. So if you want = the wings tilted, you have suggest that the nose was hitting the wall, which takes us back to the same problems that first led us to suggest that it = must have hit the ground instead. And its even worse now. With the wings = tilted at 45 degrees, the nose would be hitting the wall at a height of about = 40 ft, meaning that we have to suggest that it simply bounced off, or stuck = in the wall and hung there (while the engine powered through the wall) or = if the nose burst through the wall, we're back to the same old problems. So the whole engine theory is impossible all round, which ever way you = look at it. Nevertheless, lets pretend its still alive and press on. There's the question of whether the momentum and weight of the engine = was enough to power it's way through 3 rings of the building. Let's do some comparisons with weapons specifically made to penetrate = strong buildings. During WW 2, the British developed the "Tall Boy" Bomb http://www.members.aol.com/nukeinfo2/ It weighed 12,000 lb and could punch it's way through 10 ft of steel reinforced concrete, when dropped from a great height ( a Lancaster = bomber) Very impressive! The Pentagon may not be as strong, but the engine is alleged to have punched through nearly triple this width. The engine = weighs about the same as the "Tall Boy." However the "Tall Boy" was travelling = at several times the speed, and also contained explosives. And yet, = somehow, it appears to be only marginally more effective, perhaps even less. All = that engineering for nothing! If the penetrative performance of the 757 = engine is anything to go on, it seems that the Brits would been better off to save their money and just drop big lumps of scrap metal. Not learning this lesson, they went on to develop the heaviest bomb of WW 2 , the 22,000 = lb "Grand slam" bomb which could penetrate steel reinforced concrete to a = depth of about 12 ft. In addition to it's enormous weight and explosive power, = it was dropped from Lancaster bombers, giving it great speed by the time of impact. The article mentions that the bombs were exceeding the speed of sound (760 mph), by the time they hit, but doesn't mention by how much. = That could be calculated if you knew the height at which the Bombers were = flying. http://www.accessweb.com/users/mconstab/bombs.htm (also see previous link) Considering that the engine did not have an explosive inside it, was travelling (optimistically) at 300 mph and weighed about half of the = "Grand Slam", it's a little difficult to work out how it was able to a = penetration job which would appear to be about equal to that which the Grand Slam = was capable of, and do it easily by the look of the photo. Even more = remarkable is the fact that the face of the engine is the worst shape possible for penetrating a target. Tens of thousands of years ago, people worked out = that pointed surfaces penetrate targets more easily than flat surfaces, and arrows, spears swords, bullets and missiles are designed according to = this principle. The above articles mention that the "grand slam" was aerodynamically designed to ensure that the pointed end would be facing = down when it struck. So the engine was really just like a heavier and more powerful version of the old mediaeval catapult. They had less powerful propulsion and couldn't throw anything approaching that weight, but if = they' d had even 10% of the alleged penetrative power of this remarkable = engine, then most castles would have been demolished within the first hour of = the siege. In Dec 2001 it was reported that the US airforce's new cave and bunker busting bombs could penetrate 11 ft of reinforced concrete, perhaps = more. http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2001/011213-attack02.htm What a remarkable achievement! Decades of experience and research in the area of missile development, swallowing billions of dollars, have = finally achieved a penetrative power approaching that of a flat ended, non explosive, 6 ton chunk of metal hurled through the air at a few hundred = mph, like a bigger version of an ancient siege engine. Where is this engine? Did it miraculously disintegrate after punching = it's way through three rings? Or have authorities rushed it away somewhere to hide any evidence for their own story? In summary, any scenario which postulates the nose entering the wall to = any significant degree is impossible, because the engine can't have = penetrated the wall more effectively than the nose, and would have been blown up = along with the rest of the plane.Any scenario which has the nose bouncing off = the wall is impossible, because then the engine couldn't have penetrated, = and it also creates the problem of why there's no sign of the impact and = explosion 110 ft out into the lawns.(Allowing for a 45 degree fuselage angle) Any scenario which postulates that the plane never contacted the building is impossible for the same reason, and also that the engine probably = wouldn't have had time to get to the wall before the explosion, unless we invoke = the impossible combination of the belly flop and the long delay. The = suggestion that the engine had enough penetrative power to create that hole is attributing to it powers equal to state of the art missile technology, = and of the heaviest high explosive bombs of WW 2. Even if it could have penetrated, where did it finish up, and why has it vanished? So it was a missile. Once more, the argument is concluded, but = I will again suspend the findings to examine another aspect. PART 11. WHAT ABOUT THE EYEWITNESSES? When an eyewitness claims to have seen something which is physically impossible they are generally assumed to be either mistaken or lying. Indeed, such dismissal is not limited to reports of the physically impossible, but extended to the dubious. For example reports of UFOs, = sea monsters, ghosts or Bigfoot are usually dismissed as hoaxes or = illusions, even though such things are not necessarily physically impossible, but simply outside the scope of what we generally accept as being reasonable = and credible. The plausibility of such alleged accounts cannot be be mathematically tested, and quantitatively defined as being either = possible or impossible. Much of the official story concerning AA 77 can, and has = now been, subjected to mathematical analysis, and has been found to be impossible. To uncritically accept eyewitness reports of a solid object fitting = through a hole smaller than itself, or alternatively blowing itself into nothing against the rules of physics is inconsistent with the standards of proof = and credibility normally applied to alleged eyewitnesses of other dubious, = but not necessarily impossible phenomena. The question has to be asked - how many eyewitness reports would be = needed to even reopen such a question, let alone consider it to be proved, = contrary to the laws of physics? And what standards of verification should be applied? Does an anonymous, third hand, one line quote in a military newspaper (hardly an independent source, considering the nature of the debate ) constitute an "eyewitness" in these circumstances? How many of these would be needed in order to confidently override the laws of = physics ? We need dozens, maybe hundreds of credible well verified, comprehensive eyewitness reports in close to full agreement with each other, from = sources which are at least in theory independent, to even reopen the question. = The mainstream media and certain web authors have done a smoke and mirrors = job to have us believe that such eyewitness evidence exists. It doesn't. Those sources do not make any effort to critically examine = the question of how the alleged eyewitness reports originated, or to = critically deconstruct the reports either individually or collectively. I dealt = with this question comprehensively in this article, published in June 2002 Did AA 77 hit the Pentagon? Eyewitness accounts examined. http://hamilton.indymedia.org:8081/front.php3?article_id=3D1786&group=3Dw= ebcast It demonstrated that eyewitness accounts do not confirm a large = passenger jet hitting the Pentagon. The findings of the article did not = demonstrate that the eyewitness reports, when taken in isolation, prove that it = didn't happen. It simply demonstrated that they don't confirm anything one way = or the other. They are confused, lacking in substance, highly contradictory = and poorly verified. Some described a large passenger jet, some even specifying an AA 757. = One alleged witness (Ford) described it as a propeller plane. Many gave no indication at all as to what kind of plane it was, but were = unjustifiably seized upon by supporters of the 757 theory as proof that a large = passenger jet hit the building, simply because a witness allegedly said that "a = plane " hit the building. Many claimed to see a large plane close to the = scene, but didn't see it hit the building. Another report, which I decided not = to review, and in retrospect should have (Steve Patterson) described it as = an 8 to 12 seater jet. And even amongst those who claimed it to be a large = plane, there was wild contradiction in how it hit. One expects some variation, but not to this extent. One alleged witness, (MikeWalter) said in one interview that it that dove steeply into the building from almost directly above it. But in a different interview he described it as "like a cruise missile with wings" - the above = description wouldn't seem to be describing missile -like behavior- and in several = other interviews he said he that he didn't see it at all, including one given = only an hour after the steep dive interview. Nevertheless, one media = commentator in defending the official story, selectively quoted Walter and wrote = "Mike Walter is in no doubt about what he saw." Others said it flew level and crashed on the ground in front of the building, near the helipad, and = others said it flew straight into the wall. And bear in mind that the meaning of "it" was in many cases unspecified. The verification of most reports was extremely poor, amounting to = hearsay. I was only able to find two witnesses who gave direct live interviews for which transcripts were available. Walter and Timmerman. Walter, who gave several interviews, contradicted himself so much that it was hard to = know what to make of it. Timmerman's account was impossible to believe, = because it required us to believe that a block of apartments suddenly sprang out = of the ground half way through his sighting and then disappeared again afterwards. The different accounts contradict each other so heavily, that one has to either dismiss nearly all of them in favour of a few, selected as being = the most credible, or else speculate that 4 or 5 planes must have hit the building. It was difficult to find more than any 3 witnesses who agreed = with each other enough to group them together. And that was before = deconstructing them individually, to test their verification and plausibility. In that article I refrained from comparing the eyewitness reports with = any physical evidence. I simply wanted to isolate the reports and see how = they stood up in a self contained analysis. But it's now time to subject some = of these to critical examination of how they fit with the physical = evidence. There were two reports (Timmerman and Washington) which explicitly = stated a large plane, (in Timmerman's case, explicitly an AA 757) and suggested = that it crashed on the ground, near the helipad, just in front of the = building. Both of these reports were discredited and exposed as almost certain fabrications because of internal inconsistencies, without the need to = resort to any of the physical evidence. But lets pretend that their reports had stood up, when viewed in isolation. Here again is that photo of the area in question, surrounded by smooth lawns, just after the incident. http://66.129.143.7/june2aa.htm Can you pick the spot where a 155 ft fuselage, 12 ft wide, with a = wingspan of 125 ft crashed and exploded with a ferocity never previously seen in aviation history ? If this actually happened, then we are wasting money = and space building airport runways. We could just use golf courses. The = lawns would clearly stand up very well to this kind of treatment. Imagine that you are a lawyer, conducting a defence in a murder trial. Suppose that the prosecution presented Timmerman and Washington as = witnesses in relation to the above photograph, which was deemed to be relevant to = the case. How would you feel if your client was convicted on the basis that = the testimonies of Timmerman and Washington were deemed to override the = physical evidence shown in the photo ? Just a chance you might appeal ? Although the eyewitness investigation didn't reveal evidence for any specific scenario, it's really significant finding was that it exposed several examples of blatant fabrication of reports which claimed to = support the official story. Why fabricate eyewitness evidence for something that really happened? These reports are still circulating around the web and = the media as if they were genuine. For example, the report attributed to = Captain Lincoln Liebner was exposed as an unequivocal fabrication, but some web authors who I know are well aware of this, and others who may not be = aware of it, continue to post the Liebner report on their websites as evidence = for the official story. Other reports exposed as certain or almost certain fabrications include Timmerman, Washington, Mcgraw and Winslow. These continue to be heavily promoted as evidence. Of course, the article wasn't perfect, and in retrospect there's a few things I should have handled a little differently. Nevertheless, it was = a very thorough investigation, and remains, as far as I am aware, the only comprehensive investigation which has been done into the eyewitness = aspect. The best complaint that most critics could come up with is that I didn't = go even further, and personally track down and phone the alleged witnesses myself - rather difficult since most of them were either anonymous, or appeared not to exist, or worked for the military, or were simply untraceable without spending amounts of time and money which very few = people have. But the same critics had been perfectly happy to accept these = bogus or dubious or poorly verified reports at face value and post them as = evidence on their websites for months without any attempt at critical = investigation. As soon as my investigation was published, discrediting or throwing = serious doubt on many of these reports, it suddenly became dreadfully important = ( but apparently only for me ) to phone the witnesses, before drawing any conclusions. Meanwhile, these critics happily continue to quote the discredited accounts such as Liebner, Timmerman, Winslow, Mcgraw and Washington without bothering to have done any investigation themselves. = The argument seemed to be that because my investigation had only been 95% thorough, then it's findings were less credible than those who had done = no investigation at all, but simply collected quotes from press or other websites. Although my search was very thorough, inevitably I missed a few, and = with a number of critics aggressively trawling the web to try to find anything = I'd missed, they've managed to find a few.So I'm now I'm now going to = address one of these to demonstrate in a similar style to my earlier = investigation, an example of how a report which really tells us nothing at all has been misrepresented as eyewitness evidence for the official story. Case 2 = deals with an outright fabrication, which appears to have been perpetrated = since my article was published. The misrepresented case is one attributed to a firefighter named Alan Wallace. http://www.iaff.org/across/news/archives/102401local.html [[ Moments later, fire fighters Allan Wallace and Mark Skipper ran for = cover as the ill-fated aircraft impacted the southwest face of the building, leaving hundreds of Pentagon workers as well as the 64 people aboard the plane dead or missing. "I just happened to look up and see the plane," said Wallace. "It was = about 200 yards away, and was coming in low and fast. I told Mark that we = needed to get the hell out of there." The hijacked Boeing 757, loaded with 30,000 pounds of fuel, departed = Dulles International Airport at 8:10 a.m. enroute to Los Angeles. At some point during the flight, terrorists commandeered the plane and steered a = course for Washington, D.C. At 9:40 a.m., the plane smashed into the five-story office building which serves as the nerve center of the U.S. military. Both Wallace and Skipper tried to get as far away as possible. Wallace = only made it about 20 feet, but found shelter under a transport van. Skipper = ran toward a field and was knocked over by the blast. Both men suffered 1st = and 2nd degree burns. ]] Variations on this story are published at http://www.msnbc.com/news/635293.asp http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/pentagram/6_37/local_news/10386-1.html http://detnews.com/2001/nation/0109/11/nation-291261.htm One of these says that Wallace didn't actually make it under the van = until after the blast. It also mentions that the plane was alleged to be about = 25 ft of the ground. Lets pull this apart. [[ "I just happened to look up and see the plane" ]] When it was 200 yards away? If it was a 757, the noise would have been deafening well before then. It's inconceivable that someone could only become become aware of a plane of that size at that height and distance = by "just happening to look up.". Notice that he says "the plane", with no further embellishment. This statement might be plausible if it was = something much quieter. So either it represents a dubious and poorly verified statement contradicting the official story, or else it simply isn't believable. In one of the other versions, he specifically states that he didn't hear = it until he saw it. There's a further problem with this statement. If was 25 ft high and 200 yards away, it would be at about a 2 degree angle from the ground where Wallace was standing, so it would be in his normal line of vision. He actually didn't need to look up at all. It should really be "I just = happened to be not looking down, and see the plane", which does not have a particularly credible ring to it. Other variations on this story do not = have Wallace engaged in some kind of task, where he's looking down. He's said = to be simply walking along. Which means that the plane should have been in = his field of vision, the moment it appeared over the horizon, rather than something which had to be looked up at to be seen. It's possible that = the surrounding topography, trees and buildings limited the horizon to this distance and that Wallace did see it the moment it appeared, and has = simply described the sighting clumsily, or not realised this, because it = happened so quickly. So we shouldn't say "That proves this guy is lying", but = neither should we uncritically accept it all at face value without thinking it through. These are exactly the kinds of issues which would be raised in = a cross examination in court. 400 mph is 195 yards per second. So if it was 200 yards away, then = Wallace had 1 second to do everything which the article claims him to have done. 1) Take it in for a moment 2) Yell "Get the hell out of here" 3) Turn and run about twenty feet. I've tested this, using a tape measure and a metronome set at 60 beats = per second to count the time. When turning the instant of the metronome = click (leaving no time at all for reaction and recognition, or yelling out), = and beginning to sprint, I got to take one big step by the second click - covering about 7 ft, so I still needed another second to get close to 20 = ft . ( and I'm quick ). So it's impossible to have done this in 1 second. = You need at least two, which means that the plane must been 400 yards away, = when he first saw it. Realistically, we should be adding another 1/2 to 1 = second for reaction time and yelling out. So we really need to call the plane's distance as 500 - 600 yards. You can try it out for yourself . A certain amount of latitude has to allowed in estimating distances, but expanding 200 to 500 or 600, is stretching the boundaries of such = latitude. But if we reduce the van's distance to 15 ft, meaning that one more big = step gets you nearly there, we might just be able to suggest that this is plausible in 2 seconds - 400 yards of flight, which just comes within acceptable margins of error. Apart from the fact that 500 -600 yards would be stretching the figures = in the report beyond credibility, there's another reason why the plane = can't have been more than about 450 yards away, unless we start changing = another of Wallace's parameters by orders of magnitude. If it was 25 ft off the ground, and more than about 450 yards away, it would have crashed into = the Navy annex, rather than coming over the top of it. Who says it came over = the Navy annex? Several of the other witnesses which purport to support the official story. So either it didn't come over the Navy annex, = discrediting those reports, or else Wallace is orders of magnitude out not only with = the distance, but also with the height , and also significantly out with the distance of the van. This starts to create too much inaccuracy for the report to be credible, considering the confident and unequivocable = manner in which the distances are presented, especially when combining it with the unlikely introduction of " just happening to look up." If it was = anything like 25 ft off the ground, and went south of the Navy annex, then it probably would have demolished buildings on the other side of 395. If it went north, it might have hit the Sheraton, and if it went further north through the cemetery, it would have cut a vicious swathe of destruction through the trees. It might be possible to plot a credible flight path between these = obstacles, but it would have to be very specific, and even if it avoided the major obstacles mentioned, one would think that a very specific swathe 500 - = 600 yards long, of poles and trees, matching this path would have to been knocked over, easily discernible from aerial photos. No such obvious = swathe exists.And you would then have to disregard all eyewitnesses that = suggested a different flight path, Including Timmerman, Walter and Munsey, three = often held up as proof of the official story. (Although they all contradict = each other anyway, as well as Walter contradicting himself) But this = complication is unnecessary if we reduce the distance of the van to 15 ft. If we = assert that he underestimated the distance of the plane by 50% and = overestimated the distance of the van by 30%, it's unrealistic, but possible. 2 = seconds gives a fraction of an instant to react, time to yell something, and = time to get close to the 15ft sprint. The first step is the slowest because of = the need to turn and push off and more ground can be covered in the = following second. But there is a nagging problem. The report strongly implies that Wallace = saw it first and alerted Skipper to it. If this is the case, we really have = to add another 2 seconds, to do this and have both men take off. Did = Skipper "just happen to see it" at exactly the same time? Is he also in the = habit of walking with his head down? ( We are talking about delays of 1/4 second = as being critical ) or did he see it a bit before Wallace, and Wallace = didn't realize this? Maybe. Or perhaps they both saw it immediately it cleared = the horizon. This isn't pushing me to allege with any confidence that this report is = an outright fabrication, but at the same time, neither is it inspiring a = lot of faith. Where in this account does Wallace give any indication as to what kind = of plane it was? We don't expect him to say AA 757, but was it large or = small, civilian or military? The reference to the alleged 757 was the creation = of the writer, inserted into the middle of Wallace's story, giving the subconscious impression to the not fully critical reader that Wallace himself had described it as such. As was common in reports on this = issue, the alleged witness simply said 'the plane", and the writer of the story added the assumption that it was a 757, in such a way that the careless reader could easily gain the general impression that the witness had actually said this. Any suggestion that Wallace told the writer that it was a large plane, = and that the writer simply didn't quote him on this, is pure speculation. = But even if we want to indulge in such speculation, the report then becomes difficult to take seriously, if we add extra time for Wallace to = register something about what kind of plane it was. The scenario that I've = created to try to make the account plausible is postulating extraordinarily quick reaction times and giving the benefit of the doubt in relation to the = added complication of whether both men saw it at the same instant. One has to factor in becoming aware of the danger, yelling out, and an instant = smart decision to run straight for the van. Some people might just freeze in = shock in this situation and not react at all within 2 seconds. Wallace's = reported reactions are possible, but unusually sharp. In this situation, someone = is unlikely to take in the added detail of the approximate size of the = plane. Whether it was a small military jet or a large passenger jet, either = would look big and menacing in that shocked instant of realization of what was happening. We're postulating an immediate turn and sprint, on = registering the situation. We've already twisted all the other dubious factors in = this report to their limits, to try to keep it plausible.So the = unsubstantiated assumption that Wallace told the writer it was a large passenger jet, = but just wasn't quoted as such, forces us to add at least another hundred = yards to the plane's distance, which means that's it's now back into the = region where the 25 ft height starts to create further complications. The plausibility of the report can be best maintained by giving Wallace no = time at all to take in anything about what kind of plane it was. The = reference to the 757 is invention by the writer based on a preconceived conclusion. I'm uncomfortable with how much I've had to twist this report to try to = keep it credible. I suspect that it may be a fabrication, or at least a wild embellishment. But it's possible that someone named Allan Wallace might = have experienced something like this. If so, all it tells us is what we = already know - that something hit the Pentagon and caused an explosion. Any assertion that this represents an eyewitness account supporting the 757 theory is without justification, although a tentative case could be made = to suggest that the noise factor might favour the small plane theory. Any = web author who presents this account as evidence for the official story is either dishonest, or failing to critically think through the report and deconstruct it for real meaning. If you read my eyewitness article, you'll see that the illusion that "hundreds of people identified the plane" has been to a large extent, created by the unjustified juxtaposition of predetermined conclusions = onto reports that really don't tell us anything at all, like this one. Speculation to be argued back and forth, that a certain person may or = may not have reported it as a large plane would be relevant if the physical evidence demonstrated that such a scenario was possible. It would be relevant in the event of a flyby rather than a crash. But in the case of = the overwhelming physical, mathematical and scientific evidence that it was totally impossible, reports like this are worthless to the argument of = what kind of plane or missile it was. In my previous article, I examined a number of reports which were = exposed as outright fabrications. In the cases of Washington, McGraw and Timmerman, = it was because internal contradictions exposed their reports as impossible = to believe. In the case of Winslow, it was because an investigation into = the media trail of how the report originated, indicated strongly that no = such report was ever made, and that even if it was, it originated from third = hand hearsay . In the case of Liebner, it was shown quite conclusively that Leibner never actually made the statement which you see in press reports = and on websites, and in fact was never even interviewed. Since I wrote the article, another fabrication of a slightly different style has emerged, = and I'm going to deconstruct this one in order to demonstrate the desperate measures that have been used to try sell this outrageous story. http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/collection/record.asp?ID=3D28 (undated) [[ Statement from Penny Elgas Personal Experience At The Pentagon on September 11, 2001 By Penny Elgas Traffic was at a standstill. I heard a rumble, looked out my driver's = side window and realized that I was looking at the nose of an airplane coming straight at us from over the road (Columbia Pike) that runs = perpendicular to the road I was on. The plane just appeared there- very low in the air, = to the side of (and not much above) the CITGO gas station that I never knew = was there. My first thought was "Oh My God, this must be World War III!" In that split second, my brain flooded with adrenaline and I watched everything play out in ultra slow motion, I saw the plane coming in slow motion toward my car and then it banked in the slightest turn in front = of me, toward the heliport. In the nano-second that the plane was directly = over the cars in front of my car, the plane seemed to be not more than 80 = feet off the ground and about 4-5 car lengths in front of me. It was far = enough in front of me that I saw the end of the wing closest to me and the underside of the other wing as that other wing rocked slightly toward = the ground. I remember recognizing it as an American Airlines plane -- I = could see the windows and the color stripes. And I remember thinking that it = was just like planes in which I had flown many times but at that point it = never occurred to me that this might be a plane with passengers. In my adrenaline-filled state of mind, I was overcome by my visual = senses. The day had started out beautiful and sunny and I had driven to work = with my car's sunroof open. I believe that I may have also had one or more car windows open because the traffic wasn't moving anyway. At the second = that I saw the plane, my visual senses took over completely and I did not hear = or feel anything -- not the roar of the plane, or wind force, or impact = sounds. The plane seemed to be floating as if it were a paper glider and I = watched in horror as it gently rocked and slowly glided straight into the = Pentagon. At the point where the fuselage hit the wall, it seemed to simply melt = into the building. I saw a smoke ring surround the fuselage as it made = contact with the wall. It appeared as a smoke ring that encircled the fuselage = at the point of contact and it seemed to be several feet thick. I later realized that it was probably the rubble of churning bits of the plane = and concrete. The churning smoke ring started at the top of the fuselage and simultaneously wrapped down both the right and left sides of the = fuselage to the underside, where the coiling rings crossed over each other and then coiled back up to the top. Then it started over again -- only this next time, I also saw fire, glowing fire in the smoke ring. At that point, = the wings disappeared into the Pentagon. And then I saw an explosion and = watched the tail of the plane slip into the building. It was here that I closed = my eyes for a moment and when I looked back, the entire area was awash in = thick black smoke... ...When I arrived home, I turned on every radio and TV in the house -- = I'm not sure whether I was trying to drown out my thoughts or whether I was = just hungry for news. I made a cup of tea to calm my nerves and called my = husband to let him know that I was okay. I told him that there was a piece of = the plane in my car, but for some reason, I couldn't deal with it just yet. = I also called my son at college to reassure him that I was okay. = Apparently, I made several cups of tea that I don't remember making because later that = day I found four sopping teabags lined up on my kitchen counter. I believe = now, that I was operating on "auto-pilot" and was probably in shock for much of that day. At some point I opted = for quiet and turned off all the noise except the radio in my kitchen. Then = I went to my car and faced that piece of the plane that was in the back = seat. It appeared to be a piece of the tail. There was no metal on it and it = was very lightweight -- all plastic and fiberglass. It was 22" long and 15" wide. I have no idea how it got into my car because I do not remember = seeing any rubble flying around while I was at the crash site. I assume that it dropped in through the sunroof or flipped in through a window. The plane piece consisted of a layer of white paint, and layers of yellow and gray fiberglass as well as a thin brown corrugated material. I gingerly picked up the piece and carried it into the house. As I = entered the kitchen, I heard the radio announcer on WMAL state that it was an American Airlines flight and I thought to myself, "I knew that." But = then the announcer said that is was Flight number 77 and he stated the number = of passengers and crew and it hit me hard that the planes had been full of innocent victims. The radio announcer said that they were taking calls = from people who had a personal experience to share. I dialed the station. I remember that I told them that I was "Penny from Springfield" and that I = had a piece of the plane. The next thing I knew, I was on the air and Chris = Core said "Penny from Springfield, What did you see?" I don't remember any of = the rest of our conversation and coworkers who heard it said it was somewhat incoherent. The only thing that I remember is that at the end, Chris = Core said, "How weird is that?" And I remember thinking that his comment = didn't make me feel any better. ]] Before pulling it apart, lets note that it's undated and unverified. It appears to have emerged about a year after the incident. Anybody can = turn up a year later with a privately written statement and say whatever they = like. So the verification standards are not acceptable. Let's begin with the entry of the plane into the building. This report clearly indicates that the plane flew into the building with wings close = to parrellel and that both wings entered the building. I think I am on good scientific ground when I state that a solid 125 ft object cannot pass through another solid object without leaving a 125 ft hole. It doesn't matter how many eye witnesses might allege that they saw such a thing happen - it didn't. Anyone who alleges that they saw such a thing is = either lying or deluded to the point of insanity - or else they saw a smaller plane, or a very sophisticated hologram or some kind of highly advanced, secret matter teleportation technology. If it was a plane small enough = to fit into the hole, painted in AA colours, then the witness could be = telling the truth.The witness doesn't actually say anything about the size of = the plane, so it's possible that she could have seen this, and not thought = it through when later told that it was AA 77. Either way, this report is = either a lie or a report of something much smaller than a 757, painted in AA colours. Lets apply some more critical thinking.. This part. [[ I saw the plane coming in slow motion toward my car and then it = banked in the slightest turn in front of me, toward the heliport. ]] If she had a clear view of 100 yards out of each window, then she would = have first seen the plane when it was about 100 yards from her car. If you = check the location of Columbia Pike where said the plane was when she first = saw it, and Washington Boulevard, which would appear to be the road that she = was on, then it fits with such an assumption. It was allegedly coming = straight towards her. The flying time from that point, to being directly over the road is about 1/2 second. The plane is a little over 50 yards long.It = takes about 1/4 second to fly it's own length. It allegedly discernibly = changed it 's direction in the time that it took to fly twice it's own length -from = one quarter second increment to the next - from one plane length to the = next. Even if that's physically possible, the human eye could not pick this = up. I' ve checked this speed on the metronome. If you say the words "too fast" = at a quick pace, it's approximately the time of of the word "too". To suggest that any change in direction could be detected in this time would be to assert that the plane "jumped" like a film that's had some frames cut = out. Not possible. She says that she went into slow motion mode. This can happen, when a = person is presented with a threatening situation at high speed, but there are limits. As we shall see, this report well and truly exceeds those = limits. Like this. [[ I saw a smoke ring surround the fuselage as it made contact with the wall. It appeared as a smoke ring that encircled the fuselage at the = point of contact and it seemed to be several feet thick. I later realized that = it was probably the rubble of churning bits of the plane and concrete. The churning smoke ring started at the top of the fuselage and = simultaneously wrapped down both the right and left sides of the fuselage to the = underside, where the coiling rings crossed over each other and then coiled back up = to the top. Then it started over again -- only this next time, I also saw = fire, glowing fire in the smoke ring. At that point, the wings disappeared = into the Pentagon. And then I saw an explosion and watched the tail of the = plane slip into the building. ]] This indicates that the plane sliced through the building quite easily. = If it's initial speed was 400 mph, then 300 mph seems a reasonable estimate = of it's passage through the wall. At 440 ft per second., the whole plane = would have taken 350 milliseconds to pass through. Analyze the smoke ring = cycles in the first half of the penetration. There were two complete smoke = rings in the time of about 1/2 the penetration of the plane which is about 175 = ms. 87 ms per smoke ring cycle. Each cycle was divided into 3 distinctly = visible stages. The appearance of the smoke at the top of the fuselage, the = coiling around to cross over at the bottom, and the coiling back up to cross = again at the top. About 29 ms per section. This is roughly equivalent to 1 = video or film frame. Video or film runs at speeds between 24 and 30 frames per second, depending upon the format. About 30 to 40 ms per frame. The = whole idea of this speed is that the human eye can't distinguish between one = frame and the next, making the motion appear continuous and seamless. Except = for Penny Elgas, who has the miraculous ability to distinguish one frame = from another. Watching videos must be a real drag for her, because she can = see all the little tricks they do with stunt work and other cutting = techniques. On the brighter side, she'll never be short of a job as a referee or lineswoman for the international tennis circuit. They should be lining = up at her door after this report. Then another three part series. The wings, = the explosion, the tail. About 27 ms - 1 frame each. I don't care how much someone is in slow motion mode - the human eye and brain in combination simply cannot register distinctly different images and event sequences = at this pace. In all, 10 distinct events have been described. 3 sections of smoke ring times 2, the beginning of the fire, the entry of the wings, = the explosion, the entry of the tail. An average of 35 ms per image - 10 distinct images in 10 frames Again, using the "too fast" comparison, the entire entry of the plane would take about as much time as the word = 'fast". As another comparison, try repeatedly clapping your hands as fast as you = can from a distance of about 2 ft between the hands, and see how blurred the movement is. Each clap is about the total time that the plane took to = enter the building - and you only get one shot at seeing it. Now imagine registering 10 clear separate images, in smooth sequence = within each blurred handclap, registering details such as the thickness of the smoke, and the crossover of the rings. People in dangerous situations can get adrenalin bursts which can = trigger extraordinary feats of strength. When someone who's experienced this situation says that they lifted the side of an overturned car to free = their trapped partner, we are inclined to believe it. But if they say that = they jumped over a 100 ft fence with the adrenalin burst, we know that they = have crossed the line.This account is the visual equivalent of that 100 ft = fence jump. It's physiologically impossible. She says that after the explosion, the tail continued to "slip"into the building. Hold on a moment - this is the explosion which is = disintegrating the plane to nothing - blowing outwards in all directions, but the tail = is continuing to slip serenely into it at the same time as being being = cremated by it? Even Hollywood doesn't bother with this illusion in explosion = scenes, because they know it's the exact opposite of what happens. When = something is travelling forward into a blast, it gets pushed backwards by the force. = Of course, if it has strong momentum, the two will counteract each other. = But it doesn't just keep travelling at the same speed into the point of the blast, at the same time as being vapourized by it, like being fed into a furnace on a conveyer belt. It wouldn't matter how many eyewitnesses = claimed to see this happen - it didn't. At the same time that the tail slipped serenely into this all consuming blast, without missing a beat, a fragment of it was blown 100 yards back = the other way, to land in her car. Penny really should be relating this = story at physics conferences around the world. I'm sure they'll be busy rewriting = the rules of how the universe works after verifying this. Now the claim that she was able to see the windows and colour stripes on = the plane. In total she probably saw the plane for about 1 second. Imagine yourself stopped at an intersection, and a car goes past at 150 mph. You are able to report to the police that you recognized the distinctive gold, green,and black door trim of a mid 80's Falcon,and noticed that = the windows were tinted. Now multiply the speed by 2.5. That's only some of the problem. Elgas says that at the time of initial sighting, the plane was headed straight towards her. She can't have got = a good view of the stripes and windows from front on, in the first 1/4 = second. Then it was banking away a little and was directly over the road, with = the near wing banked up a little, so that she was looking up at the = underside of the wing. What could she see ? Go back to those photos of 757s and have = a look at the way they're built. The wing at the point where it joins the fuselage is just on the lower stripe, and would obscure a very = significant section of the stripes and windows from this angle.The engine juts out significantly forward of the wing. Very little of the fuselage would be visible from this angle, during this 1/4 second window of opportunity. = As the wing extends out further, it gets narrower,but the closer = perspective increases it's effective width in her vision. I'm not saying that the = all of the stripes and windows were completely obscured for the whole sighting, = but there would be a ridiculously short window of opportunity to catch any glimpse, as the plane turned from it's front on view, to it's wing = obscured view. Then it would have been past her, with the 15 ft tail fin , the closest part of the plane, banked slightly, to show her the underside, = and obscuring a significant amount of any parting glimpse she might have = got.The phones will be running hot from the tennis association!! [[ In the nano-second that the plane was directly over the cars in front = of my car, the plane seemed to be not more than 80 feet off the ground and about 4-5 car lengths in front of me. ]] 4-5 car lengths can be approximated to about 60 ft. The length of the = wing to the fuselage is 56 ft, making a total of 116 ft from driver to fuselage.Subtract a little, as the plane is alleged to be slightly = banked, thus reducing the effective horizontal width. Offset this for the length = of her car's bonnet. Let's call the total distance from driver's eyes to fuselage 118 ft. To make the maths easy, round it t ------------Pt. 3 Physical and Mathematical analysis of Pentagon crash Part 3 by Gerard Holmgren . Wednesday October 23, 2002 at 02:40 AM investigation77 at hotmail.com Continues from Part 1 http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2002/10/1538136.php = and part 2 http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2002/10/1538137.php Let's call the total distance from driver's eyes to fuselage 118 ft. To = make the maths easy, round it to 120. Sitting in the car, her eyes are about = 4 ft off the ground, so the effective height of the plane from her eyeline is about 76 ft. Round this to 80. If you check the angle made by something which is 80 ft high and 120 ft distant, it's approximately 30 degrees. = When I sit in my car, a 30 degree angle from my eyes looks straight into the folded up sun visor. In other words, you can't see something at this = angle from a car. Of course, it's a little different for each person, = depending on their car, seat position and posture Her distances, as in the case of Wallace are subject to inaccuracy, but the point needs to be made that = on the basis of these figures it would be impossible for her to see the fuselage, from that height and distance. The open sun roof wouldn't = help. The fuselage would be behind the section that joins the windscreen to = the roof edge. Of course, with a moment to spare, one can change this by = leaning forward, but its been established that she probably has about 1/4 of a second to sight the small section of the windows and AA colour scheme = that isn't obscured by the wing. Because of the many variables, we can't = state with certainty that the fuselage was hidden from her vision, but when = taken at face value, it appears to be impossible for her to have seen it. And now, the encore. The piece of plane that found it's way into her = back seat. If you've checked the link, you will have seen the photo of it, = and will unreservedly agree that it is definitely, without doubt, = unequivocably a piece of - ??? - a piece of whatever they tell us it is. It's turned = up at the Smithsonian museum, in a little patriotic box, which apparently = proves that it must have once been part of a 757. And we know that it was found = in Penny's back seat. We have absolute proof of that because she told us = so. Penny - as one of the few people on Earth who has actually witnessed a = 125 ft solid object move through another solid object without leaving a 125 = ft h ole - and also with the help of some adrenalin, has performed the visual equivalent of jumping over a 100 ft fence, is not a person who's word = can be doubted. So this piece of the plane which had just been flung 100 yards out of a violent explosion, with temperatures orders of magnitude above 700 = degrees C, just a few seconds before, lobbed into Penny's back seat, 1 to 2 feet behind her head, so gently and quietly that she didn't even notice it - which is strange for a person who was in a state of mind that enabled = her take in tiny details in 30 ms increments. Furthermore, the piece of = plane had miraculously cooled down during it's 100 yard journey, to the extent that nothing caught fire, or even singed, or made a burning smell in the back seat. It just sat there quietly like a good little piece of plane should, until she was ready to find it and put it in the little = patriotic box. SUMMARY It is physically impossible for all of the plane to have entered the = crash site, and this is backed by solid mathematical proof. There is no evidence outside the building of wreckage to account for the part of the plane which cannot have entered the crash site. There is no evidence of identifiable wreckage inside the crash site. Cremation of the plane was unprecedented in aviation history and = physically impossible. Even could such cremation have been possible, it is impossible in the context of the modest damage to the wall. The hole in the back of the third ring cannot be explained by any means other than a missile. Fake wreckage has been designed and planted with the express purpose of impersonating the American Airlines colour scheme. Eyewitness evidence is inconclusive and fabricated eyewitness reports = have been presented to try to shore up the official story. Claims that DNA testing identified 63 of the 64 people on board, are mutually exclusive with claims that the plane was cremated, and with the official line on the WTC victims and the Bali bomb victims. So if it didn't hit the Pentagon, what happened to AA 77 and the = passengers? An important question, but it's irrelevant to the argument of whether it = hit the Pentagon. By way of analogy, imagine a murder prosecution where the defence has presented an overwhelmingly strong case - more than just reasonable doubt - solid proof that the accused cannot possibly have committed the crime. But then the prosecution plays it's trump card. " But if your client did not commit the crime, then who did?" The defence answers that it has no idea. Everyone would agree that a = guilty verdict on this basis, would be an outrageous lapse of logic. Yet this = is precisely the same lapse of logic as suggesting that a lack of = alternative explanation for what happened to the plane and the passengers is in any = way relevant to the question of whether it hit the Pentagon. The government knows what happened. Investigators have to work it out bit by bit. The = full truth will emerge in time, if a methodical, rational, step by step = approach is persevered with. I can see one good reason to cling to the belief that AA 77 hit the pentagon. The unshakable faith that the govt would not - could not lie = to us. A faith so strong that the laws that laws of physics and motion = suspend themselves in order to maintain it. A faith so strong that even the government admitting that it lies cannot overturn it. This statement = from Solicitor General Olsen. http://old.smh.com.au/news/0203/20/world/world10.html [[ "It's easy to imagine an infinite number of situations where the government might legitimately give out false information," the Solicitor-General, Theodore Olson, told the court on Monday. "It's an unfortunate reality that the issuance of incomplete information = and even misinformation by government may sometimes be perceived as = necessary to protect vital interests." ]] Of course, he could be lying ... ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C27C38.DA1DE400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Gerard Holmgren establishes the = following=20 facts in corroboration of the
small-plane attack on the = Pentagon. =20 The coverup version is an impossible
tale from start  to = finish, as=20 Holmgren demonstrates.
 
The discussion and evidence = (below) are=20 extensive.  Here are Gerard's
key = conclusions:
-----------------
 
It is = physically impossible=20 for all of the plane to have entered the crash
site, and this is = backed by=20 solid mathematical proof.

There is no evidence outside the = building of=20 wreckage to account for the
part of the plane which cannot have = entered the=20 crash site.

There is no evidence of identifiable wreckage inside = the=20 crash site.

Cremation of the plane was unprecedented in aviation = history=20 and physically
impossible.

Even could such cremation have been = possible, it is impossible in the
context of the modest damage to the = wall.

The hole in the back of the third ring cannot be explained = by any=20 means
other than a missile.

Fake wreckage has been designed = and=20 planted with the express purpose of
impersonating the American = Airlines=20 colour scheme.

Eyewitness evidence is inconclusive and fabricated = eyewitness reports have
been presented to try to shore up the = official=20 story.

Claims that DNA testing identified 63 of the 64 people on = board,=20 are
mutually exclusive with claims that the plane was cremated, and = with=20 the
official line on the WTC victims and the Bali bomb=20 victims.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Physical and mathematical=20 analysis of Pentagon crash

by Gerard = Holmgren
investigation77 at hotmail.com

<= FONT=20 face=3DArial color=3D#000080 size=3D2>It is not in dispute that = something hit=20 the Pentagon wall and damaged it.
Neither is it in dispute that AA 77 = is=20 missing. But was AA 77 involved in
the Pentagon incident? This = article=20 presents an analysis of the physical
aspects of the incident, and = concludes=20 with a brief examination of the issue
of = eyewitnesses.

PHYSICAL AND=20 MATHEMATICAL ANALYSIS OF PENTAGON CRASH.
by Gerard=20 Holmgren
investigation77 at hotmail.com

<= FONT=20 face=3DArial color=3D#000080 size=3D2>Copyright: Gerard = Holmgren. October 23=20 2002.This work may be freely copied
and distributed without = permission as=20 long as it is not for commercial
purposes. Please include the = author's name,=20 the web adress where you found
it, and the copyright = notice.

WHERE IS=20 THE WRECKAGE OF AA 77?

INSIDE THE BUILDING?

OUTSIDE THE=20 BUILDING?

CREMATED?

OR NEVER THERE?

It is alleged = that on=20 Sept 11, 2001 a hijacked Boeing 757, American Airlines
Flight 77, hit = the=20 Pentagon. It is not in dispute that something hit the
Pentagon wall = and=20 damaged it. Neither is it in dispute that AA 77 is
missing. But was = AA 77=20 involved in the Pentagon incident? This article
presents an analysis = of the=20 physical aspects of the incident, and concludes
with a brief = examination of=20 the issue of eyewitnesses.

The Sept 11 crashes are unique and=20 unprecedented events in the history of
both the press and aviation. = In many=20 cases, light plane crashes involving 2
to 3 people have triggered=20 investigations which continued for years.
Considering that the = explosion and=20 cremation of planes had never before
happened, the lack of reporting = and/or=20 official investigation is doubly
puzzling. The issue of whether a = crash=20 results from sabotage or accident
should be irrelevant to the = alarming=20 question of why four planes allegedly
cremated themselves as a result = of low=20 to medium impact crashes.

One of the purposes of accident = reconstruction=20 in plane crashes is to
determine what failed and therefore what is = subject to=20 improvement.
Normally, the press releases the findings as news in the = public=20 interest.
Professional analytical information has not been released = on the=20 September
11 crashes. If it exists (for insurance purposes, for = instance), it=20 has not
been released. Why have authorities and the press treated the = Sept=20 11
crashes differently? Who is doing the professional analysis and = why does=20 the
public not have access to it?

PART 1. PLANE=20 SPECIFICATIONS

Sourced from

http://a188.g.akamaitech.net/f/188/920/15m/http://www.wa= shingtonpost.com/wp-
srv/nation/graphics/attack_757200.htm
and
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/757family/pf/pf_200tech= .html

Wingspan 124 ft 10 in = (hereafter rounded=20 to 125 ft)
Length 155 ft 3 in (rounded to 155 ft)
Tail height = (with=20 landing gear extended ) 44 ft 6 in
Fuselage Width 12 ft 4 in (rounded = to 12=20 ft )
Max fuel capacity 11,489 gallons
Max range 4449 miles
Max = take off=20 weight 255,000 lb.

The following specifications were not directly = available from any source I
could find, but I calculated them based = on the=20 above figures, after
measuring diagrams and photos. Exact accuracy = cannot be=20 guaranteed, but they
are close and are sufficient for this=20 analysis.

Tail height (without landing gear extended) 35=20 ft

Fuselage height (without landing gear extended) 14 ft 6 in (7 = ft 3 in=20 above
wings, 7 ft 3 in below wings)

Length of each wing 56 ft = 3=20 in
Engine diameter. 9 ft. 6 in
Engine length 11 ft 6 = in

Position of=20 engine mounting on wing. Outer edge of engine 25 ft from where
wing = joins=20 fuselage.
Width of each tail fin 15 ft 6 in

Total tail fin = span 39 ft=20 (fuselage is narrower at this point)

An estimated 5 ft of engine = is below=20 fuselage level, making the total height
of the aircraft without = landing gear=20 extended, 40 ft.

You'll find the calculations throughout this = article=20 easier to critically
analyze, if you write down the above figures = before=20 continuing.


PART 2. ESTIMATIONS OF HOLE = DIMENSIONS

Based on=20 this and other similar photos,
http://www.pbase.com/image/536173
I have estimated the hole = in the=20 Pentagon wall to be about 65 ft wide, by
comparing it with the height = of the=20 building which is 77 ft.
http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/pentagon/facts.html

Depth of damage. This is = more=20 complex.The Pentagon consists of 5 rings of
building, each separated = by a=20 space between. I couldn't find any source
which directly stated = figures for=20 the depth of the rings and the spaces, and
the perspective problems = of photos=20 make it more difficult to estimate than
the width. On the basis of = aerial=20 photos, ( see the links below ) I have
estimated the depth of the = ring itself=20 to be about 32 ft, and the open space
behind it, about the same. The = outer=20 ring collapsed , leaving a total depth
of about 65 ft that the plane = could=20 potentially have fitted into,
considering that the second ring of the = building was intact.

http://www.defenselink.mil/photos/Sep2001/010914-F-8006R= -002.jpg


= http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs= _en.htm

It should be noted that = the original=20 hole was much smaller. The 65 ft wide
hole developed when a section = of the=20 wall collapsed later.

Look at the following photos, taken soon = after the=20 crash, before that
section of wall collapsed. The thick smoke and the = water=20 jets from the
firefighters make it difficult to get a clear view, but = we can=20 determine
that the hole wasn't anywhere near even 40 ft wide. = Probably less=20 than 20.
In most of the photos, it's difficult to find any hole at=20 all.

http://66.129.143.7/june2aa.htm
<= BR>= http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs= _en.htm
(see the two photos in = question 7=20 )

http://www.ifrance.fr/silentbutdeadly/
 (click on the = trajectory section=20 and scroll to the photo with the caption
"Hole center"and the = subsequent=20 photos)

Calculations based on the 65 ft wide and deep (including = open=20 space between
the rings) hole which developed later, are unreasonably = generous to the 757
argument. Nevertheless, I will continue to = conduct the=20 analysis on that
basis. I am going to attempt to prove that it was = physically=20 possible for a
Boeing 757 to crash into that section of wall, in a = manner=20 consistent with
the photographic evidence. If I manage to prove that = it was=20 physically
possible, that doesn't prove that it happened - it simply = keeps=20 the argument
alive. If it proves to be impossible, even by expanding = the=20 assumed hole to
orders of magnitude greater than what it really was, = then it=20 didn't happen
and the argument is concluded.


PART 3. ENTRY = IMPACT=20 CALCULATIONS AT 90 DEGREE FUSELAGE ANGLE

By what means could a = plane with=20 a wingspan of 125 ft and a length of 155 ft
fly into a building, = leaving a=20 hole 65 ft by 65 ft, leaving no significant
wreckage outside? Is it = possible=20 to calculate a wing angle at which the
plane might have fitted = through? If=20 not, where is the wreckage that did not
enter the = building?

The plane=20 cannot have impacted with the wings in a near parallel to the
ground = position=20 and have had the wings enter the building. If it impacted in
this = manner, the=20 wings must have broken off before they had a chance to hit
the = building. 125=20 ft of wing cannot pass through a wall without leaving a
125 ft hole. = In order=20 to suggest that the entire plane passed through the 65
ft hole, we = must=20 calculate the angle at which the wings would have to have
been=20 tilted.


This can be easily done with some graph = paper.

Draw a=20 baseline, representing 65 ft - the width of the hole. Draw = vertical
lines at=20 each end, representing 77 ft - the height of the building. Draw = a
line=20 representing 125 ft - the wingspan, starting it from the bottom = left
corner,=20 towards the top right corner, at the angle necessary for the
wingspan = line=20 not to intersect the right hand vertical line. You'll see that
it is = possible=20 for the plane to pass through the 65 ft wide hole, but not
for all of = the=20 wingspan to pass within the impact area. A significant
portion of one = wing=20 has passed above the building, avoiding any impact. This
section of = wing=20 measures about 25 ft - almost 1/2 a wing.
The minimum possible amount = of the=20 plane which can have avoided the impact
area is a figure something = greater=20 than this because the analysis has been
biased by a number of = factors, beyond=20 credibility in favour of fitting the
plane through.

1) = assuming the=20 original impact area to be 65 ft wide, when we know that it
was = significantly=20 smaller.

2) assuming the lower wing tip to be at ground level, = which it=20 may not have
been.

3) assuming the angle of the fuselage to = the wall=20 to be 90 degrees, meaning
that the plane travelled straight through, = not=20 widening the impact area
beyond it's own effective horizontal width. = For=20 example, if the fuselage
struck at a 45 degree angle, with the same = degree of=20 wing tilt, it would
create an impact hole 97.5 ft wide.You can plot = this on=20 graph paper too. If
you draw two parallel lines straight up the page, = crossing a line drawn
horizontally, the width of line they pass = across is=20 equal to the distance
between the parallel lines. If you draw the = lines at a=20 45 degree angle to
the horizontal line, they intersect with an area = 1.5 times=20 the distance
between them. So as soon as any angle is postulated for = the=20 approach of the
fuselage, then the wings need to be tilted harder in = order to=20 fit into the
65 ft hole, increasing the amount of wing that passed = above the=20 impact area.
If we postulate the wings to be tilted at a ridiculous = angle=20 like 80
degrees, not only does this increase the area of wing that's = passed=20 above
the impact zone, but also causes the fuselage to be almost at = the top=20 of the
building, meaning that one of the 15 ft tail fins, now = pointing=20 almost
straight up, starts to protrude above the impact zone. It = doesn't=20 matter how
the angle of approach or wing tilt is juggled. It's = impossible to=20 fit
anything remotely approaching the entire plane into the impact=20 zone.

Therefore, this substantial portion of the plane did not = hit the=20 building
and cannot have been pulverized amid the rubble, and must be = accounted for
in some other way.

To give an idea of how much = the=20 unaccounted for section of wing increases if
we lessen the degree of = bias,=20 here is a different set of assumptions.

Original width of hole 40 = ft.=20 Lower wing tip 10 ft above the ground.

The amount of the wing = which would=20 now pass above the impact point would be
about 47 ft. And the entire = upper=20 tail fin would no longer fit in sideways,
because the bottom of the = heavily=20 tilted fuselage would be hard up against
the right edge of the = hole.The wing=20 angle could be tilted more heavily to
fit in the tail fin, but this = further=20 increases the length of wing passing
above the impact zone. This is = still=20 assuming a fuselage angle of 90
degrees, and a hole larger than what = it=20 really was. So we have to stretch
the variables beyond credibility in = favour=20 of the 757 theory just to reduce
the unaccounted for piece of wing to = 25=20 ft.

Since this large portion of wing would not have had any = serious=20 impact upon
it, there is no reason for it to have been pulverized = into=20 nothing, unless
there was an explosion powerful enough to cremate the = wings=20 right to the
extremities. If this did not occur, then this section of = wing=20 would have
suffered no impact other than that of falling to the = ground or on=20 to a roof
after it broke off. It's conceivable that it could have = broken up=20 into a few
smaller pieces, but not to have been pulverized beyond = evidence of=20 it ever
existing. So there should be evidence of a large piece of = wing, or=20 several
pieces, large enough to be clearly identifiable, outside the = crash=20 site, or
possibly sitting on top of the rubble. Most likely, it = (they) would=20 have
finished up somewhere inside the courtyard or on a roof. The = chance of=20 it
finishing up on top of the rubble would be small, the chance of = being=20 buried
under the rubble, negligible, and the chance of being under = the rubble=20 and
smashed into pieces too small to identify, effectively = zero.

No=20 evidence exists of any such wreckage, and there is no reason why = it
should=20 not have been found and presented if it existed. We must = therefore
conclude=20 that if the 757 theory is to be kept alive, one has to postulate = an
explosion=20 significant enough to cremate an entire length of wing = beyond
evidence that=20 it ever existed. Because the only available energy source for
such an = explosion is the fuel, and an explosion must generate force = equally
in all=20 directions, this forces us to the conclusion that most of the = plane
must have=20 been similarly cremated by the explosion.There is also the problem
of = the=20 tail. Being the last part of the plane to enter the building, = the
wall should=20 already have been smashed down by the time it entered. So the
tail = should=20 have suffered less impact than the forward part of the = plane,
increasing the=20 likelihood of large identifiable pieces being found. That no
evidence = remains=20 of it also forces us to postulate a massive explosion
capable of = cremating=20 it.
Before examining this question further, I will now do the same = style=20 of
analysis on the scenario of the plane hitting the wall with the=20 wings
approximately parallel to the ground.

If this happened, = it is=20 clear that the wings never contacted the wall. They
certainly did not = pass=20 through. The hole is 60 ft too narrow, leaving 30 ft
of each wing = that cannot=20 have passed through. And there is no evidence of
any damage to the = sides of=20 the hole that would indicate contact of this
type. If the wings did = hit the=20 wall, they can't have simply bounced off,
without leaving any damage = to the=20 wall, while simultaneously cremating
themselves from the force of the = impact.=20 Especially if the fuselage was
apparently able to plough = significantly into=20 the building, before being
cremated. Not only is the fuselage = penetration=20 indicative of the test of
strength between the wall and the plane, = but the=20 wall would have been
weakened by being split open by the fuselage, = making it=20 easier for the wings
and tail as they followed. So in the event of = the wings=20 being parallel,
since no wreckage exists to support their existence, = we must=20 also postulate
an explosion significant enough to cremate the wings = to their=20 extremities,
in order to account for the two missing 30 ft=20 sections.

Regardless of at what angle the wings may have been = tilted, it=20 is impossible
for all of the wreckage to have been impacted, buried = and=20 crushed beyond
identification within the rubble of the 65 ft by 65 ft = area of=20 wall damage.
A significant section of at least one wing, something = more than=20 25 ft long,
never entered the impact zone, and cannot have been = cremated by=20 impact
alone, and yet appears to have vanished. The lack of any other = wreckage also
indicates cremation. And since explosions generate = force=20 equally in all
directions, one can't postulate an explosion powerful = enough=20 to cremate the
extremities of the plane - tail, nose and wing tips = without=20 postulating that
the entire plane was cremated.

Therefore, it = is=20 either drop the 757 theory or postulate an explosion
powerful enough = to=20 cremate the wreckage to the point that no evidence
remains of it's=20 existence.

Before examining in detail the explosion question, = lets look=20 at the depth of
the hole. 65 ft. The length of the alleged plane was = 155 ft.=20 Nothing
identifiable remains of any part of the plane. If we were not = to=20 postulate
an explosion we would have to suggest that the fuselage was = compacted to 40%
of it's original length - at least, just to explain = the lack=20 of damage to
the second ring. That's assuming the entire depth of the = first=20 ring to have
been burst through in the initial impact, and part of = the=20 compacted plane to
have protruded out into the space between the two = rings.=20 But if such
compacted wreckage came to rest there, it would be highly = visible, and
without a subsequent explosion, there is no way to = explain where=20 the
compacted fuselage went. So the entire length of the plane needs = to=20 be
compacted into the space of the first ring - about 30 ft - quite=20 impossible.
One would have to suggest that the fuselage compacted to = about 20=20 % of it's
length against the unyielding wall, and then suddenly burst = through, coming
to rest inside as a 30 ft lump amongst the rubble. Or = alternatively, that it
was still being compacted even after it burst = through,=20 meaning that as the
rear of the plane entered, the rubble and the = compacted=20 remains of the front
of the plane, were still providing significant=20 resistance, like a person
trying to hold a door shut against a = stronger=20 opponent, and being gradually
pushed back. This can't happen. The = wall either=20 holds or it doesn't. The
plane either penetrates or compacts. It = doesn't do=20 both simultaneously. It's
possible that there could have been a = certain=20 amount of compaction before
penetration, but at some point the wall = had to=20 give way, and once it did,
there would be no more compaction. If it's = going=20 to give way, it will be
early in the process. And yet, postulating a = 50 %=20 compaction of 90 % of the
plane, before it suddenly burst through - = which is=20 quite impossible - would
still leave a final fuselage length of 85 ft = to be=20 accounted for - also
impossible. And this still leaves unsolved the = problem=20 of what happened to
it afterwards.
There's a severe problem not = only with=20 the width of the impact area, but
also the depth. Neither the = fuselage nor=20 the wings can fit into the allotted
space.
Postulating an angled = entry=20 slightly reduces the amount of compaction
required, but not by the = orders of=20 magnitude necessary to fundamentally
solve the problem. For example, = if one=20 was to redo the last calculation on
the basis of a 45 degree entry, = it would=20 be reduced to a 42% compaction of
90 % of the plane before bursting = through,=20 leaving an 85 foot length of
wreckage, which lying at a 45 degree = angle,=20 would leave about 37 ft of
fuselage extending beyond the first ring, = almost=20 reaching the second. And
there would now be either a wider entry = hole, or a=20 greater section of wing
which missed the impact zone. .Although = debris of=20 some kind exists, there is
nothing of enough substance to provide any = evidence of what kind of plane it
was, and the volume is insufficient = to=20 account for anything remotely
approaching the dimensions under = discussion.=20 This is further proof that in
order to keep the 757 theory alive, we = must=20 postulate an explosion which
cremated the plane.

PART 4. = EXPLOSION=20 ANALYSIS AT 90 DEGREE FUSELAGE ANGLE

The only available energy = source for=20 such an explosion is the fuel load,
which means that the explosion = must have=20 been centred in the fuselage. An
explosion generates force equally in = all=20 directions. It had to have cremated
both ends of the plane, which = means that=20 the minimum force which can be
postulated is one sufficient to = destroy a tail=20 or nose from 77 ft away. That
's what was required if the explosion = occurred=20 in the exact centre of the
plane. Shifting it away from the centre = means that=20 less force is needed at
one end, but more at another. Since the force = must be=20 generated equally in
all directions, the smallest force we can = postulate is=20 one emanating from
the centre, if we assume the force needed for = cremation to=20 be equal at both
ends. Because any discrepancy in relation to that = question=20 is not
calculable, I will assume that to be the case. If it is = incorrect, it=20 won't
effect the integrity of the following analysis, because it=20 reveals
fundamental problems with the scenario as a whole, which = can't be=20 solved by
shifting the problem from one part of the plane to another. = An=20 equal force
must have been generated forward of the centre point, = behind it,=20 above it,
and below it. (At least potentially so, if not blocked by = the=20 ground ) So we
must draw a 3D circle around the centre of the plane, = and know=20 that every
point on the edge of that circle was impacted by a force=20 sufficient to
cremate the tail of a plane, and that all points closer = to the=20 centre were
subject to an even greater force.

If the plane = blew up as=20 it was entering the building, there are two basic
scenarios. 1) The = centre of=20 the explosion was inside the building. For
example, the plane entered = with=20 the wings sharply titled, and exploded after
the wings had entered = (and=20 passed above ) the impact area. 2) The explosion
occurred outside the = building, because it happened earlier in the process
than in scenario = 1).

The previous analysis of the depth problem tells us that = scenario 1)=20 is
impossible. If the plane was half way into the building (77 ft=20 of
penetration), then even allowing for 12 ft of compacting, the nose = would
have been hard up against the second ring when the explosion = took=20 place.
There's no sign of such damage to the second ring. = Nevertheless,=20 I'll
explore the full implications of the "inside the building" = scenario,=20 just to
make sure that nothing is left out.

Assuming half the = plane to=20 be inside the building, and the explosion to be
just inside the hole, = at this=20 time the tail is still about 77 ft to the
front of the wall. It's = exposure to=20 the blast is partly shielded by the fact
that the explosion is = actually=20 inside the collapsing section of the
building. The same goes for the = nose=20 which is, allowing for compaction,
about 60 ft forward of the blast = centre,=20 outside the collapsing ring. And
yet both were cremated. So we have = to=20 increase the alleged power of the
blast to account for the shielding = of the=20 front and rear extremities. We can
't quantify the shielding, and = must note=20 that because the wall had been
smashed down by this time, the = shielding may=20 have been small, but we can say
that the force of the explosion was = something=20 greater than what was needed
to cremate the nose and tail, had the = plane been=20 in the open.

What would have received the greatest impact from = this=20 blast? The centre of
the fuselage, and the first ring of the = building. The=20 explosion was right
inside it. So the building was subject to a force = significantly greater than
that of the cremated nose and = tail.

What=20 was the effect on the building of this massive blast ? = Nothing,
apparently.=20 It had already been split open and weakened by the impact of = the
plane=20 entering it. It appears to have suffered no extra damage as a = result
of the=20 explosion. The wall face was negligibly damaged beyond a width of = 65
ft -=20 less, when we take into account that the original hole was = smaller.
Neither=20 was the inside area of the wall, behind the face, = significantly
damaged=20 width-wise beyond this point. Neither did the force of the = explosion
have any=20 effect further into the building. The second ring, right next to
the = cremated=20 nose, closer than the cremated tail, suffered no damage. If = the
explosion was=20 centred in the middle of the 65 ft hole, just inside the
building, = then=20 allowing for the width of the fuselage, it means that the
wall = suffered=20 negligible sideways damage only 26 ft from the edges of the
fuselage = which=20 was cremated. Speculation that the wall was of an
extraordinarily = strong=20 construction, apart from suggesting an impossible
strength, makes no=20 contribution to explaining these anomalies. If it was so
tough, then = how did=20 the plane slice it's way into it to begin with? We'd
have to believe = that in=20 the test of strength between the plane and the wall,
that the plane=20 penetrated the solid wall, but was then completely
obliterated by an=20 explosion which had no effect on the now damaged and
weakened = building. This=20 isn't possible.

There's a further problem. A number of alleged = witnesses=20 claim that small
pieces of the plane were scattered over a wide area. = One=20 (Mike Walter, who's
report I reviewed in a previous article linked = later in=20 this article) said
he saw debris up on the overpass. Penny Elgas = (report=20 reviewed later in this
article, said a piece of the plane landed in = her car.=20 A number of photos (
examined later) purport to show small fragments = of the=20 plane, flung out
considerable distances from the scene. But = curiously, none=20 of these alleged
witnesses or any of the photos describe showers of = rubble=20 from the building.
Why aren't there stone pieces scattered all over = the=20 place, if the building
was the centrepoint of the = explosion?

But this=20 is an aside from the main proof. The scenario of the explosion
inside = the=20 building is impossible on two counts.
1) That an explosion of = sufficient=20 power to cremate a 100 ton aircraft, some
of it at distances of 77 ft = away,=20 could have no impact on an already partly
demolished stone building, = which=20 was at the centre of the blast.

2)That not enough length of plane = could=20 have entered the building, unless
one is to suggest that the = explosion=20 occurred right at the front of the
plane, which then forces one to = increase=20 it's alleged power by orders of
magnitude to cremate the rear, more = than 140=20 ft away, compounding the
problems of reason 1.

So it's = impossible for=20 the explosion to have occurred inside the building.

In order to = keep the=20 757 theory alive, we must postulate that the explosion
took place = outside the=20 building. Then we have the same problem in reverse.
Suppose the = centre point=20 of the explosion was the centre of the plane. If it
took place when = the wings=20 were close to the wall, then the wall was still
subject to the = maximum force.=20 A greater force than that applied to the tail.
And the nose is now = the part=20 that's shielded, inside the wall. If the 125ft
wingspan was parallel = and=20 right next to the wall and was cremated, then
there should be 125 ft = of=20 severe damage along the wall, and an extensive
area of gradually = declining=20 damage beyond this point. If we tilt the wings
at 45 degrees, to = reduce the=20 effective horizontal width and effective height
of the wingspan to = about 90=20 ft, meaning that no part of the wing was further
than 90 ft from the = blast,=20 we must still postulate an area of massively
destructive force at = least 90 ft=20 wide along the wall face, with gradually
declining severity of damage = further=20 to the sides. There can't have been a
sudden cut off point for damage = to the=20 wall. It would have been pulverized
to nothing at the centre point, = gradually=20 reducing in severity, to cosmetic
damage such as broken windows, = blackening=20 and superficial face damage at a
point significantly beyond the = wingspan=20 width. Since the wall shows
negligible damage beyond 65 ft, the = damaged area=20 isn't wide enough to
accommodate speculation of the nearby wings = being=20 blasted into nothing. Even
if the plane went in at the crazy angle of = a 90=20 degree wing tilt, the wing
extremities covering a total span of 125 = ft, above=20 and below the explosion
still have to be cremated, meaning that an = equal span=20 of force has to be
generated sideways along the wallface. And yet = somehow the=20 building escapes
with negligible damage beyond a total span of 65 ft. = So this=20 didn't happen
either.
The last hope is to suggest that the = explosion took=20 place almost at the
instant of impact, before the plane had = significantly=20 penetrated the wall.
This places the centre of the blast the maximum = possible=20 distance from the
wall - about 77 ft. It makes no difference to try = to=20 compound this by
suggesting that the blast was also further towards = the back=20 of the plane,
because then we have to increase it's power, to account = for the=20 cremated
nose. The wall, at the point where the nose struck, still = has to=20 be
receiving a force equal to that necessary to destroy the = nose.

If=20 we draw the 77 ft circle around the middle of the plane, the = extremities
of=20 the 65 ft hole are only about 8 ft beyond the circle, meaning that = this
width=20 of wall should still have been subject to massive force, and that = we
should=20 still be seeing very significant damage beyond this width. At 50 = ft
either=20 side of the centre of the nose, creating a wallface length of 100 = ft,
the=20 wall is only about 16 ft from the circle. So although the scenario = is
not as=20 ridiculous as the previous scenarios, it's still impossible = to
reconcile the=20 narrow area of significant damage to the wall with the
enormous = forces being=20 inflicted on the nearby plane. When one considers that
only 16 ft = away, the=20 blast is powerful enough to cremate a plane tail or
nose, the impact = on the=20 100 ft section of wall should be dramatic.

And this scenario = creates=20 another problem. It requires the postulation that
there was no = significant=20 penetration of the plane into the wall. In this
case, then virtually = all of=20 the damage we see to the wall, was caused by the
explosion, not the = impact.=20 In this case, it's very difficult to create a
plausible scenario for = the=20 shape and size of the damage. The force would
have been at it's = greatest in=20 the centre where the nose was obliterated. It
would have been = gradually less=20 as you look to the sides. So the original
damage should have been V = shaped,=20 with the centre point of the V, in the
middle of the 65 ft hole, and = the wide=20 shallow area at the outside wall. No
such evidence exists. What we = see is a=20 neat rectangular hole. The obvious
counter argument is that the = original=20 shape of the hole has been masked by
the later collapse of one wedge = of the=20 wall, and that the early photos are
too obscured by smoke and water = to tell=20 us exactly how far and in what shape
the original damage extended. = Quite so,=20 but this admits that most of the
damage wasn't even caused by the = explosion=20 directly, but simply by the
secondary collapse, meaning that the = original=20 area of direct damage was
tiny. For example, the points on the wall = 20 ft=20 each side of the centre,
creating a total span of 40 ft, were only 5 = ft=20 further away than the tail,
which was allegedly cremated. So this = area should=20 have been ferociously
demolished in the original damage. Early photos = show=20 this wasn't the case,
and only 15 ft further to each side - points = which are=20 only about 9 ft
further from the blast than the tail, all we see are = broken=20 windows. Some
are still intact.

This photo demonstrates the = absurdity=20 of this scenario

http://www.pbase.com/image/536173
The windows you can see = just outside the=20 damage area are only about 10 ft
further away from the blast centre = than the=20 nose or tail would have been.

Trying to solve this problem is = futile.The=20 fundamental problem is that the
modest damage to the wall is not only = irreconcilable with the impact of a
such a large plane, but also=20 irreconcilable with the explosive forces needed
to destroy = one.

So any=20 scenario of the plane hitting the building at a 90 degree = fuselage
angle is=20 impossible. The wreckage is not inside the building, is not
outside, = and the=20 force of a blast powerful enough to cremate the missing
wreckage was=20 impossible in the context of the wall damage.

PART 5 ENTRY = CALCULATIONS -=20 FUSELAGE AT 45 DEGREES

The above calculations and analysis were = based on=20 the assumption that the
fuselage struck the wall at a 90 degree = angle. This=20 wasn't because I
necessarily believe that whatever hit the wall did = so at=20 this angle. It was
because it a) favoured the 757 theory to the = maximum, by=20 keeping the entry
point as narrow as possible, and b) kept the maths = simple=20 as an introductory
reference point to the problem.The calculations = change for=20 every different
angle assumed. It's impractical to do a separate = analysis for=20 every possible
angle, but neither is it necessary. It is sufficient = to take a=20 snapshot half
way through the range of possibilities. By assuming a = fuselage=20 angle of 45
degrees, we gain an insight into the trend of how the = problem=20 changes by
angling the fuselage.
First, the parallel plane = scenario.=20 Plotted on graph paper, this shows that
at the point that the = fuselage=20 strikes the wall, the inner wing tip is only
about 18 ft from the = wall. If=20 the fuselage continued to drive into the wall
at this angle, the = wingtip=20 would strike the wall about 65 ft from the near
edge of the hole made = by the=20 fuselage. If the wing was to slice into the
wall, we should see a = continuos=20 rip in the wall extending about 65 ft until
it joined up with the = fuselage=20 hole. Meanwhile, as the fuselage was driving
deeper and wider, it = would=20 create it's own hole moving further away at 45
degrees. If the wall = collapsed=20 along the fuselage impact area, then we'd see
one long hole made by = the=20 fuselage. If it punched through cleanly, we'd see
a 45 degree tunnel, = and a=20 separate hole starting 65 ft away from the
southern edge, (assuming = the plane=20 to have been coming from the south west.)
From the size and shape of = the=20 damage to the wall, we know that this didn't
happen.

Let's = straighten=20 up the angle of the plane to try place the wingtip strike
within the = 65 ft=20 hole area. The hope here is that then the entry point of
the inner = wing might=20 come within the area where it was masked by the later
collapse. I'm = going to=20 try to create a scenario where there might have been
one point of = entry for=20 the fuselage, and a separate one less than 65 ft away
for the wing, = creating=20 two holes within a 65 ft area. This would appear to
unsupported by = early=20 photographic evidence, but we may be able to argue that
the thick = smoke and=20 the water jets at the time obscured it.

But it doesn't work. If = we=20 straighten the angle to 67 degrees, it only
reduces the distance of = the=20 wingtip strike from the near edge of the
fuselage strike by a few = feet. Once=20 we straighten the angle further, it's
almost back to the 90 degree = scenario,=20 so there's no point in pursuing that
further. This is before we = introduce the=20 impact of the outer wing, which
would slice a big hole to the north = of the=20 fuselage area. Even if you ignore
the previously examined problem of=20 compaction into the 65 ft depth, then
connecting all this up into one = hole,=20 creates one of about 140 ft wide
before the second wing enters the = building.=20 So the scenario of the fuselage
having come in on an angle with the = wings=20 parallel and penetrating the wall
is impossible.

Did the wing = break=20 off and not damage the wall? If so, we should see big
chunks of the = wing=20 scattered to the south of the main crash site. No such
wreckage = exists, so=20 this didn't happen either. What about an explosion? We
have the same = problems=20 as with the 90 degree scenario, but worse. Even if
the explosion = occurred the=20 instant of collision, the centre point would be
much closer to the = southern=20 stretch of the wall, than in the 90 degree
scenario, where we were = able to=20 place it 77 ft away. A section of wall more
than 100 ft long would be = closer=20 to the centre of the blast than the tail.
And if debris was flung = out, much=20 of it would have been hurled into the
wall. There's no significant = damage=20 extending for anything like this length
along the wall. So the = scenario of an=20 angled approach with parallel wings,
whether penetrating, breaking = off or=20 exploding is impossible.
Lets look at a 45 degree approach with = tilted wings.=20 Nothing changes as far
as the explosion scenario goes, because the = distance=20 between the exploding
fuselage and the wall hasn't changed. An impact = scenario still gives a width
way beyond the 65 ft hole. If the plane = didn't=20 explode,and fully impacted
from a 45 degree angle with the wings = tilted at 45=20 degrees, the total impact
area would be about 125 ft wide, perhaps = split into=20 three separate areas -
inner wing strike, fuselage, and outer wing = strike, or=20 perhaps if the
sections of wall between the different strike areas = collapsed,=20 it would be
one long hole. It makes no difference which wing was = titled up or=20 down, but
whichever one was up would have a significant section pass = above=20 the
building.
Every possible scenario has ben examined. Straight = approach,=20 angled
approach, parallel wings, tilted wings, trying to fit the = plane into=20 the
building, and trying to construct a credible scenario for an = explosion=20 to
explain the lack of wreckage. None of them work. So it's = impossible for=20 a
plane of that size to have caused the incident.

These = results are in=20 spite of the fact that I biased the equations beyond
credibility in = favour of=20 the 757 theory. Imagine the results had I assumed
an impact hole of = 40 ft,=20 which still would have been orders of magnitude
greater than the = original=20 hole.

This really concludes the argument. When a plane hits a = building,=20 the
wreckage must be accounted for in one way or another - all of it. = Either=20 it
is inside the building, or it is outside the building, or it=20 is
disintegrated to nothing. If none of these three happened, then it = was=20 never
there.

It is acceptable, indeed predictable, for small = fragments=20 to be unaccounted
for, but not 99.99% of the plane. The plane weighed = about=20 100 tons, so 1 ton
of alleged wreckage would represent 1% of the = plane. The=20 fragments claimed
by some to be wreckage of the plane ( which I will = examine=20 later ) would be
srtuggling to represent 0.01% of the=20 plane.

Nevertheless, I anticipate that some people will still = want to=20 argue that
2+2 =3D 5, and claim the 757 theory to be still alive on = other=20 grounds.

So I will now suspend the results of the previous = analysis,and=20 examine other
aspects of the case.

PART 6. FUEL LOAD=20 ANALYSIS.

The previous analysis examined the question of whether = it was=20 possible for
the plane to have been cremated in the context of the = damage to=20 the Pentagon
wall. It was shown not to be. But is such a cremation = possible=20 anyway, in
any situation? The only available source of energy is the = plane's=20 fuel.
Jet fuel burns at 800 degrees C. Aluminium, from which a large = part of=20 a
plane is constructed, melts at 660 degrees = C.

http://www.kitco.com/jewelry/meltingpoints.html=

During the aluminium = recycling process,=20 it is heated to 700 degrees C, and
then poured into=20 moulds.
http://203.202.189.6/waste_stop/act_09.htm

So it is possible in = theory for burning=20 jet fuel to melt aluminium, although
this is not the same as = cremating it.=20 Whether it's possible in practice
depends upon the ratio of fuel to = aluminium=20 and how efficiently it is
applied.
One look at the shape of an = aircraft=20 tells us that it's a very difficult
shape to efficiently apply such = energy=20 to. Long and thin one way, crossed at
90 degrees by another section, = also=20 long and thin. So if one was to try to
melt a 757 by sitting it in a = tub of=20 burning jet fuel, the tub would have to
be a very specifically = designed=20 shape, unless you wanted to waste an awful
lot of fuel. No such = intelligently=20 designed, controlled and efficient
application of fuel can occur in a = crash,=20 so even if all of the fuel burned
or exploded, only a small = proportion of it=20 could have been applied in an
efficient manner to the task of melting = the=20 plane.

How much fuel was on board? A maximum possible figure can = be=20 calculated from
the specifications referenced at the beginning of the = article. According to
the official story, the plane left Dulles, flew = about=20 400 miles to Ohio,and
then 300 back to Washington before crashing - = about=20 15.7 % of it's maximum
range. So if it had a full tank on departure, = then the=20 most fuel it can have
had when it crashed was about 85 % of it's = maximum=20 capacity. This is 9765
gallons. The maximum take off weight of the = plane is=20 255,00 lbs. Let's
assume a rounded figure of 200,000 lbs of aluminium = and=20 other materials in
this plane. I'll call it 180,000 lbs of=20 aluminium.

This is a guess, but not a completely uneducated one.=20 According to
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~en0daar/Materials.htm
about 80% of the = structural material of=20 a plane is aluminium, although it
doesn't specify whether this is by = weight=20 or volume. If we assume that it
refers to weight, then if the plane's = weight=20 - minus the fuel load was
200,000 lbs at take off, this gives a = figure of=20 160,000lb of aluminium.Tthe
other significant materials are steel and = titanium. (See the above link)
Since both steel and titanium have = higher=20 melting points than aluminium,

http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Ti/= heat.html

http://www.chemicalelements.com/elements/fe.html

thus increasing the work = needing to be=20 done by the burning fuel, a factor
which then needs to be offset by = such=20 materials as glass and plastic, then
assuming the other 40,000 lbs of = plane=20 weight to be roughly equivilant to
another 20,000 lbs of aluminium in = terms=20 of the energy required to melt the
plane would appear to give an = accurate=20 enough estimation for the analysis
which follows.

Such crude=20 approximations are only a problem if the result is marginal, so
lets = see if=20 it is.

It means that each gallon of fuel, even applied with = intelligent=20 efficiency
would have to melt about 18.5 lbs of aluminium. Does this = sound=20 possible?
Assume a 50 % efficiency rate, which would seem = extraordinarily=20 generous.
The result is the equivalent of half the available fuel = being=20 applied with
intelligently designed efficiency, and the other half = being=20 completely
wasted. So the equivalent ratio for the problem is the = need for=20 each gallon
of fuel being able to melt 37 lbs of aluminium, in a = controlled=20 and designed
situation.

Let's translate this data into an = everyday=20 example. 1 gallon is about the
size of the small emergency fuel cans = that=20 motorists carry. 1 lb of
Aluminium makes about 29 and a half standard = soft=20 drink cans.
http://www.westfield-ma.com/tips/aluminium.htm<= /FONT>

So 37 lbs of aluminium is = about 1090=20 cans. Can you melt 1090 aluminium cans
with a 1 gallon can of = kerosine? Let's=20 reduce the alleged cremation of AA 77
to a crude model with a scale = about 1=20 to 10,000. This model is extremely
crude, but nowhere as crude as = simply=20 saying "The plane burned - end of
thought process." The model doesn't = take=20 into account other materials such
as glass, plastic, fibreglass, = steel,=20 titanium etc. And the scaling is
extremely rough. But the only point = in=20 exploring this model further would be
if it gave any indication that = the=20 melting of the aircraft was even remotely
possible. Reduce the fuel = load to a=20 scale of 1 to 10,000 - about 1 gallon,
and then halve it to account = for the=20 50 % efficiency. Reduce the weight of
the plane to the same scale - = about 18=20 lbs of aluminium. Reduce total cubic
volume of the plane by the same = scale,=20 in order to keep the same weight to
size ratio- and material to air = ratio.=20 This means reducing the dimensions to
a scale of about 1 to 22. ( 22 = times 22=20 times 22 =3D close enough to 10,000 )
The result is a fuselage about = 7 ft long,=20 about 6 inches wide and about 7
inches high, with a very thin cross = section=20 representing the wings, about 5
ft 6 in long. This structure is made = from 18=20 lbs of aluminum - about 530
compressed aluminium cans. To give an = idea of the=20 density, each foot of the
fuselage would contain about 70 cans worth = of=20 metal. Fill a section in the
middle with half a gallon of kerosine = and set=20 fire to it, and see if you can
melt it. Better still, attach a fuse = to a=20 small firecracker placed inside,
to give the fuel the best chance of = going up=20 in one sudden catastrophic
explosion, rather than burning slowly, to = see if=20 we can not just melt, but
actually cremate the model - reduce it to a = pile of=20 dust and ashes. It is of
course, impossible.

Lets look at the = small=20 scale model from a different angle. 1 gallon is about
12 standard = soft drink=20 cans. So we need 12 cans worth of kerosine to melt
530 cans. That's = about 44=20 cans to be melted for each full can of kerosine.
Expressed another = way, take=20 one standard soft drink can, a scew top lid from
a cordial botlle, = put two=20 lidfuls of kerosine into the can, drop in a match
and see if it=20 melts.

1 gallon of kerosine cannot melt 18 lbs of aluminium even = in the=20 most
efficiently applied, controlled situation one could = devise.

And=20 we're only talking about melting, not cremation. Even if this=20 ridiculous
scenario was possible, we should see a big block of = something=20 approaching
100 tons of melted aluminium somewhere. This would be a = little=20 hard to miss,
if it was there.

The US government may be the = most=20 powerful on Earth, but if it believes that
it has invented = legislation that=20 changes or suspends the laws of physics,
then it needs a reality = check.=20 Things can only happen if there is enough
energy to drive the = process. All=20 such processes are calculable and
predictable. If there was = insufficient=20 energy for an alleged event, then it
never happened. There wasn't = enough=20 energy in the fuel load to melt, let
alone cremate the plane, which = means=20 that it didn't happen.

Once more, the argument is concluded, but = for the=20 sake of hard line
sceptics, lets move on to another aspect.
PART = 7. WERE=20 THE LAWS OF PHYSICS DIFFERENT ON SEPT 11?

There are some who like = to=20 point to the WTC crashes to make the point that
planes can and do = explode=20 into nothing in a crash. It is curious that the
only examples which = can be=20 found of this allegedly explosive cremation of
crashing planes just = happens=20 to be on Sept 11, 2001. A thorough examination
of the history of = aviation=20 disasters on any other day shows that this simply
doesn't happen. = This will=20 be demonstrated by a library of aviation disaster
photos to be = presented=20 shortly.

Unless the laws of physics were different on sept 11 = 2001, all=20 that the WTC
crashes demonstrate is that these planes must have been = loaded=20 with
explosives, because a tank of kerosine does not have the = capability for=20 that
kind of explosive force without the input of an extra energy = source, nor=20 the
total available energy to do the job. Following is a series of = photos=20 of
planes which crashed into mountains, nosedived into the ground,=20 collided
with other aircraft, crashed on take off, crashed into = buildings,=20 streets or
forests, had bombs planted aboard them, or crashed next to = petrol=20 stations.
Note the remarkably intact wreckage compared to what = happened in=20 the WTC
crashes and what is alleged to have happened in to AA = 77.

Not=20 all of the crashes are entirely comparable in terms of impact and = fuel
load,=20 but there are enough different situations here to make the point = that
total=20 cremation of crashing aircraft, without the input of additional = energy
other=20 than the fuel load does not and cannot happen.

Here's a good = comparison.=20 An American Airlines Boeing 757 which crashed into
a=20 mountain.
http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w951220.htm

Here's three more 757 = crashes and a=20 767
http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/britannia226/1.sht= ml
http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/transavia.1/1.shtm= l
http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/xiamen8301/1.shtml=
http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/lauda004/1.shtml

This plane crashed into a = field 80=20 degrees nose down.

http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/yr-lcc/photo.shtml


This DC 10 crashed into a=20 mountain.
http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w791128.htm

This one crashed right = next to a petrol=20 station and still didn't blow
anything up.
http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/swa1455/1.shtml

And here's a whole lot of = other crashes=20 This is what real wreckage of real
plane crashes looks=20 like.
http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/aa1420/1.shtml
http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/korean1533/1.shtml=
http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w651111.htm
http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/hapag-lloyd3378/2.= shtml
http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w601216.htm
http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w551101.htm
http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w920928.htm
http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w850219.htm
http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w820709.htm
http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w720618.htm
http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w650520.htm
http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/f-ogqs/photo.shtml
http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/crossair3597/1.sht= ml
http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/aa587exclusive/25.= shtml
http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/vladivostokavia/4.= shtml
http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/sq006/4.shtml
http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/af-concorde/6.shtm= l
http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/allianceairlines74= 12/1.shtml
= http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/airphilippines541/= 1.shtml
http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/airfrance.3/1.shtm= l
http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/alaska261/2.shtml<= /STRONG>
http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/qantas001/3.shtml<= /STRONG>
http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/uni873/2.shtml
http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w580206.htm
http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w000419.htm

Wreckage photos of the = plane which=20 crashed into the Empire State Building in
1945 are unclear, but here = is a=20 description of the wreckage.

http://history1900s.about.com/library/misc/blempirecrash= .htm

[[Some debris from the = crash fell to the=20 streets below, sending pedestrians
scurrying for cover, but most fell = onto=20 the buildings setbacks at the fifth
floor.Still, a bulk of wreckage = remained=20 stuck in the side of the building.
After the flames were extinguished = and the=20 remains of the victims removed,
the rest of the wreckage was removed = through=20 the building.]]

Here's the wreckage of the cessna which crashed = into a=20 building in Tampa in
Jan 2002.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/01/06/tampa.crash/

That should be enough to = make the point.=20 But in case you want to see more,
these sites - from which the above = photos=20 were sourced,
http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/
http://www.planecrashinfo.com/
http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/have photos of hundreds = more crashes=20 which I haven't linked to individually.
In the first list, they are = listed=20 from top to bottom by date. One famous
date is conspicuous by it's = absence.=20 Sept 11, 2001. There were 4 plane
crashes that day. But none of them = left any=20 wreckage. What it means is that
the WTC crash planes and whatever hit = the=20 Pentagon were destroyed with
powerful explosives. Information about = UAL 93=20 has been so scarce that its
hard to comment. ( Why the secrecy ? )The = preceeding photos demonstrate that
the WTC crashes were unique in = aviation=20 history. It's already been
demonstrated that a full tank of jet fuel = doesn't=20 have the available energy
to do the job.

The analysis below=20 demonstrates from a different perspective why crashed
planes do not = explode=20 in massively destructive fireballs. Kerosine (jet
fuel) is not a = volatile=20 enough material. But what would happen, just
supposing we could get a = fuel=20 tank to blow up? Although jet fuel is not a
particularly explosive = substance,=20 it is possible to get it to explode in
some = situations.

Because it so=20 rarely happens, we are forced to examine a different kind of
air = disaster -=20 TWA 800, which blew up in mid air, shortly after take off.
The = official story=20 is that it was caused by an exploding fuel tank. Sceptics
say that it = was hit=20 by a missile. Regardless of which it was, there was
plenty of = wreckage.The=20 following analysis of arguments relating to TWA 800,
demonstrate that = both=20 sides of the argument act to debunk the official story
of AA 77. If = it was=20 hit by a missile, then it demonstrates that even an
impact of this = ferocity=20 still doesn't reduce a plane to dust and ashes, and
doesn't set off a = catastrophic fuel tank inferno capable of cremating a
plane. If the = official=20 story is true, then the arguments put forward to
support it (several = years=20 before AA 77) act as inadvertent rebuttals to the
official AA 77=20 story.

In this article on TWA 800, Petroleum engineering research = offers=20 clue to
TWA 800 explosion by David S Salisbury,
http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/report/news/july30/twa= 800.html
he discusses a theory put = forward by=20 Stanford University Professor Sullivan
S. Marsden about why TWA 800 = exploded.=20 Professor Sullivan has had to propose
a very complex set of = circumstances to=20 try to explain how such a unique
event as the alleged explosion of a = fuel=20 tank could have occurred.
Salsibury writes

[[Jet fuel normally = is not=20 explosive at temperatures below 100 degrees
Fahrenheit. But on TWA = 800 the=20 air-conditioner heat exchangers probably
warmed the air/fuel mixture = in the=20 tank above that point. When the aircraft
is flying, the energy given = off by=20 the heat exchangers is effectively
dissipated to the outside air. But = when=20 the air conditioners are run while
the aircraft is on the ground and = the tank=20 is nearly empty, the heat
exchangers put out enough heat to raise the = temperature of the air/fuel
mixture into the danger zone, Marsden = says.=20 ]]
In other words, it's impossible to blow up a full tank of fuel,=20 without
input of extra energy, because the air /fuel mixture isn't = right, and=20 the
presence of the full fuel load cools it to below explosive = temperature.=20 Even
a full fuel tank falls ridiculously short of the energy required = to=20 even
melt a plane, let alone cremate it, and this theory is saying = that the=20 only
real risk of an explosion is with a near empty tank. Which is = why TWA=20 didn't
get blown into nothing . And why it simply can't happen, even = when=20 planes
have bombs planted aboard or are shot down.
TWA 800 was a = 747.=20 Marsden's theory cited very specific concerns with the
fuel delivery = systems=20 of 747s. Whether or not his ideas on TWA 800 are
plausible, what it=20 demonstrates is that aviation experts, even when
concocting cover = stories for=20 the government, if this is what Marsden was
doing, do not accept that = aircraft simply explode and are cremated as a
matter of course. It's = a very=20 complex argument to try to explain how a fuel
tank might have = exploded. Or at=20 least, that was the official view before
Sept 11, 2001
Sceptics = claim that=20 even Marsden's theory is ludicrously overestimating the
explosive=20 capabilities of jet fuel. From this Washington post=20 article.

http://members.aol.com/bardonia/washtime.htm
[[September 27, = 1997
William S.=20 Donaldson says the "misted fuel" in the airliner's center wing
tank = wasn't=20 hot
enough to explode and that only a blast outside the plane could = have set=20 off
the chain of events.
Legislator Probes TWA 800 Countertheory = Congress=20 has quietly begun probing a
retired Navy officer's claim that jet = fuel in TWA=20 flight 800's center wing
tank was too cold to explode without being = first=20 shaken into a volatile
mist. William S. Donaldson's assertion = challenges=20 virtually every remaining
theory of the NTSB in its search for the = cause of=20 the July 17 .... crash.
Rep. James A. Traficant Jr., Ohio Democrat, = who has=20 been probing the issue
virtually alone, was asked by aviation = subcommittee=20 Chairman John J. Duncan
Jr., Tennessee Republican to "investigate all = the=20 circumstances" and report
back. Mr. Duncan ordered staff help for Mr. = Traficant, whose staff has
consulted with Mr. Donaldson. "You could = basically=20 sit in that tank with a
lit cigarette and snuff the cigarette out in = the fuel=20 and it won't explode,"
said Paul Marcone, Mr.. Traficant's top aide. = "Your=20 agency has been
depicting the volatility of the fuel as if it were=20 nitrobenzene," the former
navy jet pilot said in a combative letter = to NTSB=20 Chairman James E. Hall,
accusing him of covering up important facts = and=20 basing his judgments on
fuel-temperature testing done on the ground = in a=20 desert. he said the fuel
never reached the danger point of 127 = degrees=20 Fahrenheit and believes only
an explosion outside the plane could = have set=20 off the chain of events.]]

This is a significant comment. [[ "You = could=20 basically sit in that tank with
a lit cigarette and snuff the = cigarette out=20 in the fuel and it won't
explode... Your agency has been depicting = the=20 volatility of the fuel as if
it were nitrobenzene." ]]

5 years = later,=20 with the occurrence of the Sept 11 crashes, the allegedly
explosive = nature of=20 jet fuel has been further ramped up to the power = of
dynamite.

Of=20 course ,the article also cites opinions rebutting Donaldson's = remarks,
but it=20 reinforces the point that a glib statement that "AA 77 blew up=20 and
disintegrated to nothing - perfectly normal, end of story, what's = the=20 all
argument about? " is not credible.

The controversy over = TWA 800=20 continues, shedding more light on how
ridiculous is the claim that it = was a=20 full fuel load which blew AA 77 into
nothing. In this extract, a = supporter of=20 the official TWA 800 story suggests
that a full fuel tank is safer = than an=20 empty one.

http://members.aol.com/bardonia/prime.htm (June 1997)
[[Large = airliners don't=20 need to fill up all their fuel tanks for most of
their flights. They = save=20 money and reduce the risk of accidents by not
carrying excess fuel. = Loeb sees=20 a hazard in this. TWA 800, with no more than
100 gallons of fuel in = its big=20 center wing fuel tank, had been waiting two
hours to take off. Loeb = claimed=20 on PrimeTime Live that its air-conditioning
packs, located beneath = the fuel=20 tank, heated the fuel enough to vaporize
some of it, creating what = host Sam=20 Donaldson called "a virtual bomb ready to
explode." Loeb admitted = that the=20 investigators had not been able to find
anything that might have = ignited this=20 "bomb," but he brushed that aside,
saying if there had been no = explosive=20 vapor, there would have been no
accident. ]]
So, even those who = are=20 claiming that TWA 800 went down because of an
exploding fuel tank, = have as a=20 central part of their theory, that a full
fuel tank reduces the risk = of=20 explosion. From the same article
[[The New York Times reported that = the NTSB=20 planned to set off a 747 center
wing fuel tank explosion this year to = see if=20 the vapor from 100 gallons of
fuel would have enough force to break a = 747 in=20 two. That important test has
not been made, and there are no plans to = make=20 it. Instead, the NTSB plans to
explode a small bomb near the center = wing fuel=20 tank of a 747 in England in
July to see what kind of damage a small = shaped=20 charge will do and "more
importantly," they say, what sound it will = make.=20 ]]

So they're arguing about whether an exploding fuel tank can = even break=20 a
plane in two, not whether it can reduce it to dust and ashes. = According=20 to
their theories, it can't explode if it's full (it still wouldn't = have=20 enough
energy anyway) and if it's empty enough to explode, it's = arguable=20 whether it
could break a plane in two.

Another article about = TWA=20 800
Herald International Tribune July 24 1996
http://www.aircrash.org/burnelli/ht960724.htm
[["If it was an accident, = it would scare=20 the hell out of us," said Michael
Barr, director of aviation safety = programs=20 at the University of Southern
California. "These planes just don't = blow up.=20 There's too many fire walls,
too many checks and=20 balances.'

Chrisotpher Ronay is equally troubled. As head of the = FBI bomb=20 unit for
seven years, he investigated 30 aircraft bombings before = retiring in=20 1994.

"I can't recall anything that has had a catastrophic effect = like=20 this case,"
he said. "You could blow the hell out of a cargo = compartment with=20 a luggage
bomb, but you have to blow up a fuel cell or an engine to = get an=20 explosion
like that." ]]

And yet, this explosion, of a = violence=20 unprecedented in aviation history
still left lots of=20 wreckage.
http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/twa800/1.shtml

From the same = article
[[The specific=20 fuel involved is called Jet A, a derivative of kerosene and = a
sluggish=20 explosive. To explode, it must mix with air, an indication that = one
or more=20 of the eight fuel cells in the jumbo jet's wings = were
breached--either by=20 violent engine or mechanical failure, by a well- placed
bomb or = possibly by a=20 missile.
There have been cases of sudden mechanical failure that = caused fire=20 and the
loss of aircraft. An Air Force C-141 transport plane crashed = in=20 Europe in
the late 1970s when an engine exploded; spraying hot = fragments that=20 ignited
paint in a cargo hold.

A Boeing 767 ripped to pieces = over=20 Thailand in 1991 when a computer error
caused one engine to deploy = its=20 reverse thruster, sending the plane into a
vicious spin.

But = in=20 neither case was there a cataclysmic explosion.

Before TWA 800 = went down=20 last week, there had never been an explosion of
such ferocity aboard = a=20 747-100, a 'wet-wing,' or plane that carries all its
fuel in wing=20 tanks.

"You have to have instant ignition into a large fuel = source," said=20 Mr. Barr,
who trains accident investigators. "The way those fuel = tanks are=20 sealed, it
just doesn't happen."

Few bombings of commercial = aircraft=20 have ended in such a fiery conclusion.
In many cases, jetliners have = survived=20 even severe damage from explosions
and landed safely.

In 1986, = terrorists planted a sheet of plastic explosive the size of = a
business letter=20 under one seat on a TWA flight from Rome to Athens. The
explosion = killed one=20 man, blowing his seat out of the plane. A grandmother,
daughter and=20 grandchild were sucked out of the resulting hole. But the=20 plane
survived.

In the 1988 crash of Pan Am 103 at Lockerbie,=20 Scotland, there was no fiery
explosion- until fuel-laden parts of the = plane=20 hit the ground.

In that case, a bomb using 10 to 14 ounces (about = 340=20 grams) of a plastic
explosive was hidden in a radio cassette player. = When=20 detonated by a amine
device, it blew a hole in the fuselage skin, = which=20 rapidly fractured and
peeled away. The plane broke into five sections = that=20 tumbled to Earth over
the Scottish countryside. ]]
This mentions a = fiery=20 explosion at the Lockerbie site, when fuel laden parts
hit the = ground. I'm=20 not saying that no explosion can occur. What I'm saying
is that it's = not=20 easily triggered, and doesn't have enough energy to cremate
a plane. = In the=20 case of the Lockerbie bombing, the bomb itself was not
enough to = trigger an=20 explosion of the fuel tank. Since the plane broke up
into five = sections, the=20 impact of the exploding fuel upon the full wreckage
could not be = tested.=20 Here's one section of the wreckage.

http://www.airsafetyonline.com/photos/panam103/1.shtml

So if a bomb, breaking a = plane into 5=20 pieces, still doesn't trigger a sudden
explosion of the fuel tank, = then what=20 does? Crashing into something solid,
like a mountain or a building - = but=20 apparently only on sept 11, 2001.There's
no evidence that an = explosion of the=20 type and power alleged to have cremated
AA 77 or the WTC planes has = ever=20 happened to any other plane, or ever could
in the situation of a = normal=20 crash. Although the political circumstance
behind the Sept 11 = crashes, and=20 (in the case of WTC crash 2 ) the
spectacular imagery involved was=20 unprecedented, there was nothing unusual in
the impact physics of the = crashes. Planes regularly crash into mountains,
streets, the ground,=20 buildings and other planes, and are not cremated.
Web author Jack = Cashill=20 writes (August 16 2001)

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID= =3D24075
[[Until recently, the only = listed "fuel=20 tank explosion" in the 80-year
history of airline disasters was a = Philippine=20 Air Lines 737 that blew while
the plane was backing out a Manila = airport gate=20 in May of 1990. And even
this case is suspect. ]]

In all of = these=20 cases significant wreckage - at least - survived. In some
cases, the = whole=20 plane. So many are saying that even the alleged explosion
of jet fuel = aboard=20 TWA 800, which left plenty of identifiable wreckage, was
impossible. = If the=20 official story on TWA 800 is a cover up, then the fuel
tank never = exploded,=20 and the whole matter of an allegedly exploding fuel
tank even = breaking a=20 plane in two is an outrageous lie. If the official
story is correct, = or at=20 least genuinely plausible, then fuel tank explosions
are only a risk = with=20 near empty tanks, and don't have anything like the
necessary energy = to=20 disintegrate a plane. And photographic records of
aviation disasters=20 demonstrate that fuel tank explosions don't happen as a
result of = regular=20 crashes, or if they do they don't cremate the planes.

In the = entire=20 history of aviation, only four passenger jets have ever
exploded into = nothing, or are alleged to have done so as a result of a
crash. All = four just=20 happen to have been the Sept 11 planes. And in the case
of the WTC, = the=20 impact surface was mostly glass - about as soft a target as
a plane = can hit,=20 with the possible exception of water. So this debunks any
assertion = that the=20 alleged explosion of AA 77 was a result of being flown
into a = fiercely=20 resistant surface, which itself is already debunked by
examples of = planes=20 which flew into mountains and weren't cremated, including
the earlier = linked=20 photo of an American Airlines 757 which crashed into a
mountain. = That's about=20 as conclusive a comparison as one can get. The only
possible = conclusion is=20 that the WTC planes had powerful explosives aboard,
and that whatever = hit the=20 Pentagon was a much smaller object, also destroyed
by = explosives.

Not=20 only was the alleged explosion of AA 77 impossible in the context of=20 the
modest damage to the Pentagon wall , and impossible because there = wasn't
enough energy in the fuel - it's also been shown anecdotally = to=20 be
impossible in the context of aviation = history.

Nevertheless, I'm=20 once again going to suspend these findings, to examine
another=20 aspect.
PART 8. "BUT WRECKAGE WAS FOUND."

So lets have a look = at the=20 photos of the alleged wreckage.
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/11.jpg
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/12.jpg
http://www.mdw.army.mil/news/news_photos/911/pages/plane= piece.html
http://www.dtic.mil/armylink/photos/Sep2001/roll4112.jpg=
Additional to the fact = that this=20 represents less than 0.1 % of the volume of
the alleged plane, what = evidence=20 is there that any of this was once part of
a Boeing 757 ? It could be = from=20 anything. We know that something hit the
Pentagon, that there was an=20 explosion, and that where there is a
add your = comments


Part 2=20 posted at
by Gerard Holmgren . Wednesday October 23, 2002 at 02:33=20 AM

Physical and mathematical analysis of Pentagon crash Part = 2
by=20 Gerard holmgren . Wednesday October 23, 2002 at 02:25 = AM
investigation77 at hotmail.com

<= FONT=20 face=3DArial color=3D#000080 size=3D2>Continues from part 1,=20 http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2002/10/1538136.php
which was cut short while=20 uploading  Additional to the fact that this
represents less than = 0.1 %=20 of the volume of the alleged plane, what evidence
is there that any = of this=20 was once part of a Boeing 757 ? It could be from
anything. We know = that=20 something hit the Pentagon, that there was an
explosion, and that = where there=20 is an explosion there will be debris of some
sort.

To argue = that this=20 provides any evidence for either side of the argument is
witchcraft = trial=20 logic. " You must be a witch, because you wouldn't have
been accused = if you=20 weren't ".

" We know that a 757 was there. That proves that this = is=20 debris from a 757.
And the fact that this is debris from a 757 proves = that it=20 was there... "

This debris is totally unidentifiable, and it's = volume is=20 too insignificant
to adress the problem of unaccounted for=20 wreckage.

Supporters of the 757 theory claim this fragment to be = wreckage=20 from AA 77,
citing the AA colours as proof.
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/13.jpg

In fact, it is the alleged = AA colours=20 which prove conclusively that this
cannot possibly be part of the = alleged=20 plane. Has American Airlines invented
a new kind of indestructible = paint?=20 This fragment has allegedly been
violently flung out from an = explosion which=20 reduced a giant airliner to the
dust and ashes and unidentifiable = tiny=20 fragments shown in the above photo.
And yet the paint is as shiny and = new as=20 the day it was applied. Does it
take more energy to peel and blacken = paint,=20 than to destroy 100 tons of
aircraft? Clearly painted sections = survive most=20 crashes, as shown in the
crash photos. But in those cases, no one is = alleging=20 an explosion
catastrophic enough to vaporize 100 tons of plane. They = break up=20 and perhaps
burn a bit. In really fierce crashes, some of the plane = may=20 actually be
destroyed, but even in these cases, tons of reasonaly = intact=20 wreckage
remains. So these scenarios are consistent with the recovery = of=20 painted
sections, even in bad crashes. The allegation that this = brightly=20 painted
fragment survived is irreconcilable with the claim that = 99.99% of the=20 plane
was vapourized.

This is about as believable as the = stories that=20 the alleged hijackers were
identified by the discovery of their = miraculously=20 unscathed passports at
crash sites which cremated the planes and = occupants.=20 The metal is also shiny
and new looking, and there is no sign of = grass=20 singeing from the heat in the
area where it landed. It is quite = impossible=20 for this to be from an aircraft
which had just been reduced to a pile = of=20 ashes.

I anticipate an accusation of inconsistency = here.

"First=20 you complain that wreckage is not identifiable, then when it is, = you
say that=20 such identification would be impossible, proving it's a = fake."

Not so.=20 The photos shown earlier were examples of identifiable and=20 credible
wreckage.
There's a further problem with this piece of = wreckage.=20 The colours are wrong
anyway. Take a close look at the colour scheme = used by=20 American Airlines.
First, note that the alleged wreckage has a white = stripe=20 next to red which
is of a larger area than the white stripe. Note the = absence=20 of any blue
stripe.Now let's look at some actual AA plane photos and = you'll=20 see that
that this colour scheme isn't used. Except possibly in the = American=20 Airlines
lettering on the top front part of the fuselage, a point = I'll come=20 back to.
This link will take you to a page with thumbnail photos of = American=20 Airlines
planes. I chose not to supply the direct links to the = enlarged=20 thumbnails,
because the URLs were extraordinarily long,and faced a=20 significant risk of
breaking once published on the=20 web.

http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?airlinesear= ch=3DAmerican%20Airlin
es&distinct_entry=3Dtrue
Note that=20 the striped colour scheme which the crude fake has attempted to
copy = does not=20 appear on the wings or tail fins. The reason I make this
point, is = that this=20 rules out the possibility that this piece of the plane
was sheared = off during=20 the approach, before the explosion, by hitting a
lightpole. If = there's any=20 possibility that it's a genuine AA colour scheme,
it can only have = come from=20 part of the American Airlines lettering, on the
top and front part of = the=20 fuselage, which means that this piece could not
have been sheared off = on the=20 way in, and therefore must have been subject to
the explosion. And = that is=20 impossible, even if we were to pretend that such
an explosion was = generally=20 possible. Furthermore the only part of the plane
which it could = possibly have=20 come from is towards the front. If the
explosion occurred in the = middle of=20 the plane, debris from the front area
would have been flung forwards = into the=20 building not away from it. And if
the explosion occurred in the front = part of=20 the plane, making it possible to
blow this piece backwards, then this = area of=20 the plane would have been
subject to the most powerful part of the = blast, so=20 if we were going to see
surviving pieces of debris flung backwards,=20 (especially with paintwork still
intact ) they should be from the = rear of the=20 plane. And if it's alleged that
it was thrown forward with such force = that it=20 hit something else and bounced
back all this distance, wouldn't the=20 paintwork, be just a little scratched?

Whoever designed and = planted this=20 fake, didn't think it through.

PART 9. DNA = TESTING

Authorities=20 would have us believe that 63 of the 64 people aboard AA 77 = were
identified=20 from DNA testing.

This link
http://www.giveyourvoice.com/dna-faq.html
(See question = 20)
explains why DNA=20 testing is not able to identify all of the WTC victims.
Because DNA = is=20 destroyed by high temperatures. Read any article or technical
paper = on DNA=20 storage and sampling, and it will mention the critical role = of
correct=20 temperature in maintaining the integrity of the samples. And = they're
not=20 talking about temperatures above 600 degrees C as being destructive,=20 but
temperatures below 150. It needed a minimum temperature of 660 to = melt=20 the
plane. Actually, a lot more because it would have to have been = 660=20 minimum,
at the extremities, so it would have been much higher in = most of the=20 centre
fuselage where the people were. The temperatures required to = cremate=20 it are
almost unimaginable. And yet we are supposed to believe both = stories,=20 that
nothing remains of the plane, but 63 of 64 victims still had = their=20 DNA
intact, while at the same time the heat generated in the WTC is a = serious
obstacle to DNA testing.

We were told that even many = victims=20 of the Bali bombing in Oct 2002 might
never be=20 identified.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/World/story_40740.asp

[[ The equipment included = medical=20 supplies, DNA testing facilities and
refrigerated containers to ease = the=20 crisis at Denpasar's vastly overworked
makeshift morgue.
But = officials=20 admitted today the carnage was so horrific that technology
would make = no=20 difference in some cases.

"It's highly likely that some victims = will be=20 unable to be identified," said
Australia's consul-general in Bali, = Ross=20 Tysoe.

Foreign Minister Alexander Downer, visiting the scene for = the=20 first time,
said: "Many of them are burnt beyond = recognition."

Those=20 close to the deadliest of the two explosions, at Sari's nightclub = in
the Kuta=20 tourist strip, would have "disintegrated", Mr Downer said. ]]

And = yet we=20 are supposed to believe that those at the centre of a blast = which
vapourized=20 a 100 ton aircraft left DNA which tested 98.4% successful.

To = analogize=20 this it's worth going back to the 1 to 10,000 scale model. It's
like=20 suggesting that before you set fire to it, you placed inside 64 = small
pieces=20 of plant or animal material. After the catastrophic explosion of = the
1/2=20 gallon of kerosine successfully reduced the 18 lb aluminium model = to
dust and=20 ashes, 63 of the 64 pieces of material inside, were still able to
be=20 successfully DNA tested.

PART 10. THE HOLE IN THE OTHER SIDE OF = THE=20 WALL

This photo shows a hole punched through the Pentagon wall at = the=20 back of the
damaged area.
http://www.mediacen.navy.mil/pubs/allhands/nov01/war18.j= pg

Lets find it's exact = location.
In the=20 next photo, scroll to the bottom and look approximately in the = middle
of the=20 photo, at the back of the third ring, below the second set of = windows
to the=20 right of the bridge between the rings, casting a large shadow = You'll
see the=20 top half of a circular hole.

http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/16.jpg
Here's the same scene from = a different=20 angle.You can now see all of the hole
.
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/17.jpg
It appears to be at angle = of something=20 like 45 degrees from the first ring
damage area. How much stone has = been=20 penetrated to make this hole? Assuming
no internal walls, 6 walls. If = each=20 wall is 3 feet thick, that's 18 ft of
stone, plus or minus any = inaccuracy of=20 the guess of the thickness of the
walls, perhaps plus anything that = was in=20 the way, inside the buildings.
Because its at a 45 degree angle, = whatever has=20 made it has actually had to
punch out 27 ft of stone.

An = explosion=20 that digs tunnels? Not even the hard line 757 enthusiasts = are
suggesting that=20 this was caused by the impossible explosion. The logical
explanation = is a=20 missile. The 757 supporters claim that it was punched
through the = wall by one=20 of the plane's engines.

The engines are mounted on the wings. The = wings=20 were allegedly cremated. How
did the engine not only escape = disintegration,=20 but propel itself forward two
to three rings beyond where any of the = rest of=20 the plane got to? (Three
rings beyond refers to some scenarios that = the plane=20 never actually
penetrated the building but crashed just=20 outside).

There are only two available energy sources for any = part of the=20 plane to
move through the wall. The momentum of the plane,and the = alleged=20 force of
the explosion. If the energy source was the latter, why did = it=20 propel one
small part of the plane forward, while destroying the rest = of it?=20 And if the
energy source was the momentum of the plane, why hasn't = the 100=20 ton fuselage
burst through the rings, instead of the 6 ton = engine?
I'm=20 going to try to construct the best argument I can that this was = caused
by an=20 engine. The engine became disconnected from the wing before the = plane
blew=20 up. Otherwise the engine would have blown up too.
The engine must = have been=20 jolted free of the wing and propelled forward by
it's existing motion = at the=20 same time as something else stopped the rest of
the plane in it's = tracks. By=20 the time the explosion happened, the engine was
out of range of the=20 destructive blast, and already punching it's way through
the wall. = Why did=20 the engine burst free? As the plane was approaching the
building, the = wing=20 hit a light pole weakening the mountings around the
engine so that it = was=20 hanging by a thread. As the nose slammed into the
wall, or perhaps = the plane=20 hit the ground just in front of the wall, the
resultant change of = momentum=20 stopped the plane very quickly, jolting the
engine free. It fired = into the=20 wall, bursting through as the plane blew up.

That's the best I = can do,=20 but there are huge problems.

For a start, the engine weighed = about 6=20 tons, according to these
specifications for similar=20 engines
http://home.swipnet.se/~w-48037/l1011techsp.htm=

(Note: The weights listed = next to the=20 engine on the Boeing technical site
referenced at the beginning of = the=20 article, do not refer to the engine's
weight, but to its thrust=20 power.)

Its a little difficult to imagine that the mountings = attatching=20 an engine of
this weight could be so critically weakened by hitting a = pole,=20 but never
mind - ignoring reality has become a regular necessity for = any=20 attempt to
keep the 757 theory alive. Lets press on.

If we = speculate=20 that the nose of the 100 ton plane hit the wall,and stopped
dead, = hardly=20 penetrating, then we can't seriously suggest that an engine, 6%
of = the=20 weight, now travelling at a lesser speed than what the plane = would
have been=20 doing when it hit the wall, could punch it's way through three
rings. = If the=20 plane hit the ground, and stopped dead, a few feet from the
wall, and = then=20 blew up, where is the 155ft fuselage crater,and the sideways
damage = from the=20 wings? That's without the explosion. Where is the circle = of
devastation which=20 should be a radius of something more than 77 ft? This
photo = demonstrates that=20 this didn't happen.
http://66.129.143.7/june2aa.htm
<= BR>If the engine didn't = detach until after=20 the explosion then it can't have
outrun the blast. Everything would = have been=20 blown up together. If the
engine detached from the shock of impact, = as the=20 nose hit the wall, and then
flew towards the wall, the nose had no = reason to=20 stop penetrating the wall
until the explosion blew it up. This means = that the=20 nose was always further
forward than the engine, so if the nose is = blown up,=20 so is the engine. If we
postulate an angle for the plane and a = position for=20 the nose, to try to
create a scenario that the engine shoots wide of = the=20 blast area, then it's
also shooting wide of the impact area. You'd = have to=20 produce evidence of a
second entry point. Whichever engine it was, it = has to=20 pass through the 65
ft hole area, and in any scenario where the nose=20 penetrates the wall, it's
going to pass through later than the nose. = And=20 since they must both be
travelling into the building at the same = angle, then=20 the distance between
them will never widen as a result of = angle.

So=20 unless you want to suggest that the engine actually fired from the=20 wing
before the impact ( like a missile ), then any scenario which = has the=20 nose
penetrating the wall is impossible. In case someone suggests = that the=20 engine
fired off immediately upon hitting a light pole, I'll point = out that=20 they're
built to withstand that kind of contact, and even if they = weren't,=20 that
would knock the engine backwards, not shoot it ahead of the = plane. In=20 fact,
whatever the cause of it's detachment, if it came off when the = plane=20 was
still moving, it's impossible for it to have been fired off = faster than=20 what
the plane was moving, so if anything happened beforehand, it = would=20 have
fallen off, not shot forward like a missile.

If the = scenario=20 involving the nose hitting the wall is impossible, and the
scenario = of the=20 nose not hitting the wall is also impossible, then it=20 didn't
happen.

So it was a missile. But lets pretend that the = previous=20 analysis doesn't
exist and look at other aspects of this question, = pretending=20 that the engine
theory is still alive.

Lets pretend that it = was=20 possible for the plane to stop short of the wall
and blow up outside, = ignoring the lack of damage to the lawns, and say that
the engine was = jolted=20 free by the previously speculated method, and managed
to outrun the = blast,=20 before the plane blew up.

If the plane was doing 400 mph when it = suddenly=20 stopped, and the engine flew
off at a speed of about 300 mph, then it = was=20 travelling towards the wall at
about 440 ft per second. The way the = engines=20 are mounted on a 757
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/281582/L/

The engine would have = about 60 ft to=20 travel to strike the wall, allowing for
the plane stopping 5 ft short = of the=20 wall. (90 degree fuselage angle)
Angling the fuselage at 45 degrees = to make=20 the engine's flight path
compatible with the direction of the third = ring=20 hole, makes negligible
difference to the distance from engine to = wall, as=20 long we postulate that it
was the inner wing engine. If it was the = outer=20 wing, it has to travel about
120 ft to strike the wall. Also, the = effective=20 horizontal width created to
the north (assuming the plane to have = approached=20 from the south) by the
outer engine angle, means that the front of = the=20 fuselage has to be placed
hard against the right edge of the 65 ft = hole, to=20 fit the engine's entry
point into the damaged area. This is = significant,=20 because we are now
postulating a scenario where the wall suffered no = impact=20 other than the
engine strike and the explosion. It's impossible to = make a=20 credible case for
the fuselage cremation happening hard up against = the edge=20 of the hole, when
just a few feet away windows were unbroken. So we = need to=20 assume that it was
the inner engine. This enables the nose to be = placed close=20 to the centre of
the area of 65 ft damage, while still allowing the = engine to=20 fire through
the damaged area, avoiding the problem of having to = suggest a=20 non-existent
second entry point.
So the engine had about 60 ft to = travel=20 to the wall. At 440 ft per second
this would take close enough to 150 = milliseconds. If the plane blew up
before this, the engine would be = toasted=20 along with everything else, because
it's travelling a line which = takes the=20 inner side of it only 15 ft from the
exploding fuselage. So even if = had=20 reached the wall, that still wouldn't
save it. We really need to give = it time=20 to burrow into the wall a safe
distance from the blast. If it's speed = halved=20 to 220 ft per second, when it
struck the wall, then it would take = about=20 another 50 ms to fully enter it's
11.5 ft length into the wall, and = we need=20 to allow another 50 ms for it to
burrow a further 10 ft to be safe. = Even this=20 might not be enough because it'
s penetration path is crossing the = middle of=20 the 65 ft hole, in front of
where the nose is blowing up - the part = of the=20 wall that would be subject to
the most force. It might need another = 50 ms of=20 burrowing. So to keep the
engine safe from the blast, we have to = postulate a=20 delay of 250 to 300 ms
after the plane crashed, before it blew up.=20 Instinctively, this seems
impossible, although I can't produce hard = data to=20 prove it. But the scenario
as a whole is impossible.
This is what = had to=20 happen. The plane can't have hit with the nose pointing
sharply down = into the=20 ground, because then the engine would have been fired
into the = ground. So it=20 had to land just about level, but stop dead - like a
sudden 90 degree = belly=20 flop straight out of a momentum of 400 mph. Then we
have to postulate = a 250=20 to 300 ms delay, before it suddenly blows up with a
ferocity never = before=20 seen in aviation history. During this delay, we have
to postulate = that it=20 didn't break up significantly, otherwise other parts of
wreckage = would have=20 gone flying off and also escaped the blast. Then it
suddenly cremated = itself,=20 and did all this without damaging the lawns that
it belly flopped on = to.=20 Impossible.

Postulating tilted wings to try to change distances = and=20 angles only makes it
worse. If the wings were tilted at 45 degrees, = then the=20 lowest point of the
upper engine is about 55 ft off the ground, and = the the=20 lowest point of the
lower engine is about 20 ft off the ground. Since = the=20 hole is at ground
level, you'd have to describe a precise downwards = angle for=20 the nose to get
the engine to finish up at ground level after its = penetration=20 through the
rings. But the bigger problem here is that the nose can't = have=20 hit the
ground with the wings tilted, because the lower wing would = have=20 broken off
first. This makes it rather difficult to suggest the = sudden stop=20 necessary
to fire off the upper engine wing with any speed. When is = the=20 sudden jolt ?
When the wing breaks off, or when the nose hits? We = probably=20 have to
speculate a halved speed for the engine now - if it could = still=20 happen at
all - meaning that the delay before the explosion is now = 500 - 600=20 ms, which
is getting quite ridiculous, and the engine is now lacking = the=20 power it
needs to have any chance of charging through 27 ft of stone, = which=20 is now a
bit more, because its being fired from a raised angle. So if = you=20 want the
wings tilted, you have suggest that the nose was hitting the = wall,=20 which
takes us back to the same problems that first led us to suggest = that it=20 must
have hit the ground instead. And its even worse now. With the = wings=20 tilted
at 45 degrees, the nose would be hitting the wall at a height = of about=20 40
ft, meaning that we have to suggest that it simply bounced off, or = stuck=20 in
the wall and hung there (while the engine powered through the = wall) or=20 if
the nose burst through the wall, we're back to the same old=20 problems.

So the whole engine theory is impossible all round, = which ever=20 way you look
at it. Nevertheless, lets pretend its still alive and = press=20 on.

There's the question of whether the momentum and weight of = the engine=20 was
enough to power it's way through 3 rings of the = building.

Let's do=20 some comparisons with weapons specifically made to penetrate=20 strong
buildings.
During WW 2, the British developed the "Tall = Boy"=20 Bomb

http://www.members.aol.com/nukeinfo2/

It weighed 12,000 lb and = could punch=20 it's way through 10 ft of steel
reinforced concrete, when dropped = from a=20 great height ( a Lancaster bomber)
Very impressive! The Pentagon may = not be=20 as strong, but the engine is
alleged to have punched through nearly = triple=20 this width. The engine weighs
about the same as the "Tall Boy." = However the=20 "Tall Boy" was travelling at
several times the speed, and also = contained=20 explosives. And yet, somehow, it
appears to be only marginally more=20 effective, perhaps even less. All that
engineering for nothing! If = the=20 penetrative performance of the 757 engine is
anything to go on, it = seems that=20 the Brits would been better off to save
their money and just drop big = lumps=20 of scrap metal. Not learning this
lesson, they went on to develop the = heaviest bomb of WW 2 , the 22,000 lb
"Grand slam" bomb which could = penetrate=20 steel reinforced concrete to a depth
of about 12 ft. In addition to = it's=20 enormous weight and explosive power, it
was dropped from Lancaster = bombers,=20 giving it great speed by the time of
impact. The article mentions = that the=20 bombs were exceeding the speed of
sound (760 mph), by the time they = hit, but=20 doesn't mention by how much. That
could be calculated if you knew the = height=20 at which the Bombers were flying.
http://www.accessweb.com/users/mconstab/bombs.htm
(also see previous=20 link)

Considering that the engine did not have an explosive = inside it,=20 was
travelling (optimistically) at 300 mph and weighed about half of = the=20 "Grand
Slam", it's a little difficult to work out how it was able to = a=20 penetration
job which would appear to be about equal to that which = the Grand=20 Slam was
capable of, and do it easily by the look of the photo. Even = more=20 remarkable
is the fact that the face of the engine is the worst shape = possible for
penetrating a target. Tens of thousands of years ago, = people=20 worked out that
pointed surfaces penetrate targets more easily than = flat=20 surfaces, and
arrows, spears swords, bullets and missiles are = designed=20 according to this
principle. The above articles mention that the = "grand slam"=20 was
aerodynamically designed to ensure that the pointed end would be = facing=20 down
when it struck. So the engine was really just like a heavier and = more
powerful version of the old mediaeval catapult. They had less=20 powerful
propulsion and couldn't throw anything approaching that = weight, but=20 if they'
d had even 10% of the alleged penetrative power of this = remarkable=20 engine,
then most castles would have been demolished within the first = hour of=20 the
siege.

In Dec 2001 it was reported that the US airforce's = new cave=20 and bunker
busting bombs could penetrate 11 ft of reinforced = concrete,=20 perhaps more.

= http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2001/011213-attac= k02.htm
What a remarkable = achievement! Decades=20 of experience and research in the
area of missile development, = swallowing=20 billions of dollars, have finally
achieved a penetrative power = approaching=20 that of a flat ended, non
explosive, 6 ton chunk of metal hurled = through the=20 air at a few hundred mph,
like a bigger version of an ancient siege=20 engine.

Where is this engine? Did it miraculously disintegrate = after=20 punching it's
way through three rings? Or have authorities rushed it = away=20 somewhere to
hide any evidence for their own story?

In = summary, any=20 scenario which postulates the nose entering the wall to = any
significant=20 degree is impossible, because the engine can't have penetrated
the = wall more=20 effectively than the nose, and would have been blown up along
with = the rest=20 of the plane.Any scenario which has the nose bouncing off the
wall is = impossible, because then the engine couldn't have penetrated, and = it
also=20 creates the problem of why there's no sign of the impact and = explosion
110 ft=20 out into the lawns.(Allowing for a 45 degree fuselage angle) = Any
scenario=20 which postulates that the plane never contacted the building = is
impossible=20 for the same reason, and also that the engine probably wouldn't
have = had time=20 to get to the wall before the explosion, unless we invoke = the
impossible=20 combination of the belly flop and the long delay. The suggestion
that = the=20 engine had enough penetrative power to create that hole = is
attributing to it=20 powers equal to state of the art missile technology, and
of the = heaviest high=20 explosive bombs of WW 2.

Even if it could have penetrated, where = did it=20 finish up, and why has it
vanished? So it was a missile. Once more, = the=20 argument is concluded, but I
will again suspend the findings to = examine=20 another aspect.
PART 11. WHAT ABOUT THE EYEWITNESSES?

When an=20 eyewitness claims to have seen something which is = physically
impossible they=20 are generally assumed to be either mistaken or lying.
Indeed, such = dismissal=20 is not limited to reports of the physically
impossible, but extended = to the=20 dubious. For example reports of UFOs, sea
monsters, ghosts or Bigfoot = are=20 usually dismissed as hoaxes or illusions,
even though such things are = not=20 necessarily physically impossible, but
simply outside the scope of = what we=20 generally accept as being reasonable and
credible. The plausibility = of such=20 alleged accounts cannot be be
mathematically tested, and = quantitatively=20 defined as being either possible
or impossible. Much of the official = story=20 concerning AA 77 can, and has now
been, subjected to mathematical = analysis,=20 and has been found to be
impossible.

To uncritically accept = eyewitness=20 reports of a solid object fitting through
a hole smaller than itself, = or=20 alternatively blowing itself into nothing
against the rules of = physics is=20 inconsistent with the standards of proof and
credibility normally = applied to=20 alleged eyewitnesses of other dubious, but
not necessarily impossible = phenomena.

The question has to be asked - how many eyewitness = reports=20 would be needed
to even reopen such a question, let alone consider it = to be=20 proved, contrary
to the laws of physics? And what standards of = verification=20 should be
applied? Does an anonymous, third hand, one line quote in a = military
newspaper (hardly an independent source, considering the = nature of=20 the
debate ) constitute an "eyewitness" in these circumstances? How = many=20 of
these would be needed in order to confidently override the laws of = physics=20 ?

We need dozens, maybe hundreds of credible well verified,=20 comprehensive
eyewitness reports in close to full agreement with each = other,=20 from sources
which are at least in theory independent, to even reopen = the=20 question. The
mainstream media and certain web authors have done a = smoke and=20 mirrors job
to have us believe that such eyewitness evidence=20 exists.

It doesn't. Those sources do not make any effort to = critically=20 examine the
question of how the alleged eyewitness reports = originated, or to=20 critically
deconstruct the reports either individually or = collectively. I=20 dealt with
this question comprehensively in this article, published = in June=20 2002

Did AA 77 hit the Pentagon? Eyewitness accounts=20 examined.
http://hamilton.indymedia.org:8081/front.php3?article_id= =3D1786&group=3Dwebcast
It demonstrated that = eyewitness accounts=20 do not confirm a large passenger
jet hitting the Pentagon. The = findings of=20 the article did not demonstrate
that the eyewitness reports, when = taken in=20 isolation, prove that it didn't
happen. It simply demonstrated that = they=20 don't confirm anything one way or
the other. They are confused, = lacking in=20 substance, highly contradictory and
poorly verified.

Some = described a=20 large passenger jet, some even specifying an AA 757. One
alleged = witness=20 (Ford) described it as a propeller plane. Many gave no
indication at = all as=20 to what kind of plane it was, but were unjustifiably
seized upon by=20 supporters of the 757 theory as proof that a large passenger
jet hit = the=20 building, simply because a witness allegedly said that "a plane
" hit = the=20 building. Many claimed to see a large plane close to the scene,
but = didn't=20 see it hit the building. Another report, which I decided not = to
review, and=20 in retrospect should have (Steve Patterson) described it as an 8
to = 12 seater=20 jet. And even amongst those who claimed it to be a large plane,
there = was=20 wild contradiction in how it hit.

One expects some variation, but = not to=20 this extent. One alleged witness,
(MikeWalter) said in one interview = that it=20 that dove steeply into the
building from almost directly above it. = But in a=20 different interview he
described it as "like a cruise missile with = wings" -=20 the above description
wouldn't seem to be describing missile -like = behavior-=20 and in several other
interviews he said he that he didn't see it at = all,=20 including one given only
an hour after the steep dive interview.=20 Nevertheless, one media commentator
in defending the official story,=20 selectively quoted Walter and wrote "Mike
Walter is in no doubt about = what he=20 saw." Others said it flew level and
crashed on the ground in front of = the=20 building, near the helipad, and others
said it flew straight into the = wall.
And bear in mind that the meaning of "it" was in many cases=20 unspecified.

The verification of most reports was extremely poor, = amounting to hearsay. I
was only able to find two witnesses who gave = direct=20 live interviews for
which transcripts were available. Walter and = Timmerman.=20 Walter, who gave
several interviews, contradicted himself so much = that it was=20 hard to know
what to make of it. Timmerman's account was impossible = to=20 believe, because
it required us to believe that a block of apartments = suddenly sprang out of
the ground half way through his sighting and = then=20 disappeared again
afterwards.

The different accounts = contradict each=20 other so heavily, that one has to
either dismiss nearly all of them = in favour=20 of a few, selected as being the
most credible, or else speculate that = 4 or 5=20 planes must have hit the
building. It was difficult to find more than = any 3=20 witnesses who agreed with
each other enough to group them together. = And that=20 was before deconstructing
them individually, to test their = verification and=20 plausibility.

In that article I refrained from comparing the = eyewitness=20 reports with any
physical evidence. I simply wanted to isolate the = reports=20 and see how they
stood up in a self contained analysis. But it's now = time to=20 subject some of
these to critical examination of how they fit with = the=20 physical evidence.
There were two reports (Timmerman and Washington) = which=20 explicitly stated a
large plane, (in Timmerman's case, explicitly an = AA 757)=20 and suggested that
it crashed on the ground, near the helipad, just = in front=20 of the building.
Both of these reports were discredited and exposed = as almost=20 certain
fabrications because of internal inconsistencies, without the = need to=20 resort
to any of the physical evidence. But lets pretend that their = reports=20 had
stood up, when viewed in isolation.

Here again is that = photo of=20 the area in question, surrounded by smooth
lawns, just after the=20 incident.
http://66.129.143.7/june2aa.htm
<= BR>Can you pick the spot = where a 155 ft=20 fuselage, 12 ft wide, with a wingspan
of 125 ft crashed and exploded = with a=20 ferocity never previously seen in
aviation history ? If this actually = happened, then we are wasting money and
space building airport = runways. We=20 could just use golf courses. The lawns
would clearly stand up very = well to=20 this kind of treatment.

Imagine that you are a lawyer, conducting = a=20 defence in a murder trial.
Suppose that the prosecution presented = Timmerman=20 and Washington as witnesses
in relation to the above photograph, = which was=20 deemed to be relevant to the
case. How would you feel if your client = was=20 convicted on the basis that the
testimonies of Timmerman and = Washington were=20 deemed to override the physical
evidence shown in the photo ? Just a = chance=20 you might appeal ?

Although the eyewitness investigation didn't = reveal=20 evidence for any
specific scenario, it's really significant finding = was that=20 it exposed
several examples of blatant fabrication of reports which = claimed=20 to support
the official story. Why fabricate eyewitness evidence for=20 something that
really happened? These reports are still circulating = around=20 the web and the
media as if they were genuine. For example, the = report=20 attributed to Captain
Lincoln Liebner was exposed as an unequivocal=20 fabrication, but some web
authors who I know are well aware of this, = and=20 others who may not be aware
of it, continue to post the Liebner = report on=20 their websites as evidence for
the official story. Other reports = exposed as=20 certain or almost certain
fabrications include Timmerman, Washington, = Mcgraw=20 and Winslow. These
continue to be heavily promoted as evidence.
Of = course,=20 the article wasn't perfect, and in retrospect there's a few
things I = should=20 have handled a little differently. Nevertheless, it was a
very = thorough=20 investigation, and remains, as far as I am aware, the = only
comprehensive=20 investigation which has been done into the eyewitness aspect.
The = best=20 complaint that most critics could come up with is that I didn't = go
even=20 further, and personally track down and phone the alleged = witnesses
myself -=20 rather difficult since most of them were either anonymous, = or
appeared not to=20 exist, or worked for the military, or were simply
untraceable without = spending amounts of time and money which very few people
have. But = the same=20 critics had been perfectly happy to accept these bogus or
dubious or = poorly=20 verified reports at face value and post them as evidence
on their = websites=20 for months without any attempt at critical investigation.
As soon as = my=20 investigation was published, discrediting or throwing serious
doubt = on many=20 of these reports, it suddenly became dreadfully important (
but = apparently=20 only for me ) to phone the witnesses, before drawing any
conclusions. = Meanwhile, these critics happily continue to quote the
discredited = accounts=20 such as Liebner, Timmerman, Winslow, Mcgraw and
Washington without = bothering=20 to have done any investigation themselves. The
argument seemed to be = that=20 because my investigation had only been 95%
thorough, then it's = findings were=20 less credible than those who had done no
investigation at all, but = simply=20 collected quotes from press or other
websites.

Although my = search was=20 very thorough, inevitably I missed a few, and with a
number of = critics=20 aggressively trawling the web to try to find anything I'd
missed, = they've=20 managed to find a few.So I'm now I'm now going to address
one of = these to=20 demonstrate in a similar style to my earlier investigation,
an = example of how=20 a report which really tells us nothing at all has been
misrepresented = as=20 eyewitness evidence for the official story. Case 2 deals
with an = outright=20 fabrication, which appears to have been perpetrated since
my article = was=20 published. The misrepresented case is one attributed to a
firefighter = named=20 Alan Wallace.
http://www.iaff.org/across/news/archives/102401local.htm= l
[[ Moments later, fire = fighters Allan=20 Wallace and Mark Skipper ran for cover
as the ill-fated aircraft = impacted the=20 southwest face of the building,
leaving hundreds of Pentagon workers = as well=20 as the 64 people aboard the
plane dead or missing.

"I just = happened to=20 look up and see the plane," said Wallace. "It was about
200 yards = away, and=20 was coming in low and fast. I told Mark that we needed
to get the = hell out of=20 there."
The hijacked Boeing 757, loaded with 30,000 pounds of fuel, = departed=20 Dulles
International Airport at 8:10 a.m. enroute to Los Angeles. At = some=20 point
during the flight, terrorists commandeered the plane and = steered a=20 course
for Washington, D.C. At 9:40 a.m., the plane smashed into the=20 five-story
office building which serves as the nerve center of the = U.S.=20 military.

Both Wallace and Skipper tried to get as far away as = possible.=20 Wallace only
made it about 20 feet, but found shelter under a = transport van.=20 Skipper ran
toward a field and was knocked over by the blast. Both = men=20 suffered 1st and
2nd degree burns. ]]

Variations on this story = are=20 published at
http://www.msnbc.com/news/635293.asp=
http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/pentagram/6_37/local_news= /10386-1.html
http://detnews.com/2001/nation/0109/11/nation-291261.htm=
One of these says that = Wallace didn't=20 actually make it under the van until
after the blast. It also = mentions that=20 the plane was alleged to be about 25
ft of the ground.

Lets = pull this=20 apart.

[[ "I just happened to look up and see the plane" = ]]
When it=20 was 200 yards away? If it was a 757, the noise would have = been
deafening well=20 before then. It's inconceivable that someone could only
become become = aware=20 of a plane of that size at that height and distance by
"just = happening to=20 look up.". Notice that he says "the plane", with no
further = embellishment.=20 This statement might be plausible if it was something
much quieter. = So either=20 it represents a dubious and poorly verified
statement contradicting = the=20 official story, or else it simply isn't
believable.

In one of = the=20 other versions, he specifically states that he didn't hear it
until = he saw=20 it.
There's a further problem with this statement. If was 25 ft high = and=20 200
yards away, it would be at about a 2 degree angle from the ground = where
Wallace was standing, so it would be in his normal line of = vision.=20 He
actually didn't need to look up at all. It should really be "I = just=20 happened
to be not looking down, and see the plane", which does not = have=20 a
particularly credible ring to it. Other variations on this story do = not=20 have
Wallace engaged in some kind of task, where he's looking down. = He's said=20 to
be simply walking along. Which means that the plane should have = been in=20 his
field of vision, the moment it appeared over the horizon, rather=20 than
something which had to be looked up at to be seen. It's possible = that=20 the
surrounding topography, trees and buildings limited the horizon = to=20 this
distance and that Wallace did see it the moment it appeared, and = has=20 simply
described the sighting clumsily, or not realised this, because = it=20 happened
so quickly. So we shouldn't say "That proves this guy is = lying", but=20 neither
should we uncritically accept it all at face value without = thinking=20 it
through. These are exactly the kinds of issues which would be = raised in=20 a
cross examination in court.
400 mph is 195 yards per second. So = if it=20 was 200 yards away, then Wallace
had 1 second to do everything which = the=20 article claims him to have done.

1) Take it in for a moment
2) = Yell=20 "Get the hell out of here"
3) Turn and run about twenty = feet.

I've=20 tested this, using a tape measure and a metronome set at 60 beats = per
second=20 to count the time. When turning the instant of the metronome = click
(leaving=20 no time at all for reaction and recognition, or yelling out), = and
beginning=20 to sprint, I got to take one big step by the second click -
covering = about 7=20 ft, so I still needed another second to get close to 20 ft
. ( and = I'm quick=20 ). So it's impossible to have done this in 1 second. You
need at = least two,=20 which means that the plane must been 400 yards away, when
he first = saw it.=20 Realistically, we should be adding another 1/2 to 1 second
for = reaction time=20 and yelling out. So we really need to call the plane's
distance as = 500 - 600=20 yards. You can try it out for yourself .

A certain amount of = latitude has=20 to allowed in estimating distances, but
expanding 200 to 500 or 600, = is=20 stretching the boundaries of such latitude.
But if we reduce the = van's=20 distance to 15 ft, meaning that one more big step
gets you nearly = there, we=20 might just be able to suggest that this is
plausible in 2 seconds - = 400 yards=20 of flight, which just comes within
acceptable margins of = error.

Apart=20 from the fact that 500 -600 yards would be stretching the figures = in
the=20 report beyond credibility, there's another reason why the plane = can't
have=20 been more than about 450 yards away, unless we start changing = another
of=20 Wallace's parameters by orders of magnitude. If it was 25 ft off = the
ground,=20 and more than about 450 yards away, it would have crashed into = the
Navy=20 annex, rather than coming over the top of it. Who says it came over = the
Navy=20 annex? Several of the other witnesses which purport to support = the
official=20 story. So either it didn't come over the Navy annex, = discrediting
those=20 reports, or else Wallace is orders of magnitude out not only with=20 the
distance, but also with the height , and also significantly out = with=20 the
distance of the van. This starts to create too much inaccuracy = for=20 the
report to be credible, considering the confident and = unequivocable manner=20 in
which the distances are presented, especially when combining it = with=20 the
unlikely introduction of " just happening to look up." If it was=20 anything
like 25 ft off the ground, and went south of the Navy annex, = then=20 it
probably would have demolished buildings on the other side of 395. = If=20 it
went north, it might have hit the Sheraton, and if it went further = north
through the cemetery, it would have cut a vicious swathe of=20 destruction
through the trees.

It might be possible to plot a = credible=20 flight path between these obstacles,
but it would have to be very = specific,=20 and even if it avoided the major
obstacles mentioned, one would think = that a=20 very specific swathe 500 - 600
yards long, of poles and trees, = matching this=20 path would have to been
knocked over, easily discernible from aerial = photos.=20 No such obvious swathe
exists.And you would then have to disregard = all=20 eyewitnesses that suggested
a different flight path, Including = Timmerman,=20 Walter and Munsey, three often
held up as proof of the official = story.=20 (Although they all contradict each
other anyway, as well as Walter=20 contradicting himself) But this complication
is unnecessary if we = reduce the=20 distance of the van to 15 ft. If we assert
that he underestimated the = distance of the plane by 50% and overestimated
the distance of the = van by=20 30%, it's unrealistic, but possible. 2 seconds
gives a fraction of an = instant=20 to react, time to yell something, and time to
get close to the 15ft = sprint.=20 The first step is the slowest because of the
need to turn and push = off and=20 more ground can be covered in the following
second.

But there = is a=20 nagging problem. The report strongly implies that Wallace saw
it = first and=20 alerted Skipper to it. If this is the case, we really have to
add = another 2=20 seconds, to do this and have both men take off. Did Skipper
"just = happen to=20 see it" at exactly the same time? Is he also in the habit of
walking = with his=20 head down? ( We are talking about delays of 1/4 second as
being = critical ) or=20 did he see it a bit before Wallace, and Wallace didn't
realize this? = Maybe.=20 Or perhaps they both saw it immediately it cleared = the
horizon.
This isn't=20 pushing me to allege with any confidence that this report is = an
outright=20 fabrication, but at the same time, neither is it inspiring a lot=20 of
faith.

Where in this account does Wallace give any = indication as to=20 what kind of
plane it was? We don't expect him to say AA 757, but was = it=20 large or small,
civilian or military? The reference to the alleged = 757 was=20 the creation of
the writer, inserted into the middle of Wallace's = story,=20 giving the
subconscious impression to the not fully critical reader = that=20 Wallace
himself had described it as such. As was common in reports on = this=20 issue,
the alleged witness simply said 'the plane", and the writer of = the=20 story
added the assumption that it was a 757, in such a way that the=20 careless
reader could easily gain the general impression that the = witness=20 had
actually said this.

Any suggestion that Wallace told the = writer=20 that it was a large plane, and
that the writer simply didn't quote = him on=20 this, is pure speculation. But
even if we want to indulge in such=20 speculation, the report then becomes
difficult to take seriously, if = we add=20 extra time for Wallace to register
something about what kind of plane = it was.=20 The scenario that I've created to
try to make the account plausible = is=20 postulating extraordinarily quick
reaction times and giving the = benefit of=20 the doubt in relation to the added
complication of whether both men = saw it at=20 the same instant. One has to
factor in becoming aware of the danger, = yelling=20 out, and an instant smart
decision to run straight for the van. Some = people=20 might just freeze in shock
in this situation and not react at all = within 2=20 seconds. Wallace's reported
reactions are possible, but unusually = sharp. In=20 this situation, someone is
unlikely to take in the added detail of = the=20 approximate size of the plane.
Whether it was a small military jet or = a large=20 passenger jet, either would
look big and menacing in that shocked = instant of=20 realization of what was
happening. We're postulating an immediate = turn and=20 sprint, on registering
the situation. We've already twisted all the = other=20 dubious factors in this
report to their limits, to try to keep it=20 plausible.So the unsubstantiated
assumption that Wallace told the = writer it=20 was a large passenger jet, but
just wasn't quoted as such, forces us = to add=20 at least another hundred yards
to the plane's distance, which means = that's=20 it's now back into the region
where the 25 ft height starts to create = further=20 complications. The
plausibility of the report can be best maintained = by=20 giving Wallace no time
at all to take in anything about what kind of = plane it=20 was. The reference to
the 757 is invention by the writer based on a=20 preconceived conclusion.

I'm uncomfortable with how much I've had = to=20 twist this report to try to keep
it credible. I suspect that it may = be a=20 fabrication, or at least a wild
embellishment. But it's possible that = someone=20 named Allan Wallace might have
experienced something like this. If = so, all it=20 tells us is what we already
know - that something hit the Pentagon = and caused=20 an explosion. Any
assertion that this represents an eyewitness = account=20 supporting the 757
theory is without justification, although a = tentative case=20 could be made to
suggest that the noise factor might favour the small = plane=20 theory. Any web
author who presents this account as evidence for the = official=20 story is
either dishonest, or failing to critically think through the = report=20 and
deconstruct it for real meaning.
If you read my eyewitness = article,=20 you'll see that the illusion that
"hundreds of people identified the = plane"=20 has been to a large extent,
created by the unjustified juxtaposition = of=20 predetermined conclusions onto
reports that really don't tell us = anything at=20 all, like this one.

Speculation to be argued back and forth, that = a=20 certain person may or may
not have reported it as a large plane would = be=20 relevant if the physical
evidence demonstrated that such a scenario = was=20 possible. It would be
relevant in the event of a flyby rather than a = crash.=20 But in the case of the
overwhelming physical, mathematical and = scientific=20 evidence that it was
totally impossible, reports like this are = worthless to=20 the argument of what
kind of plane or missile it was.

In my = previous=20 article, I examined a number of reports which were exposed = as
outright=20 fabrications. In the cases of Washington, McGraw and Timmerman, = it
was=20 because internal contradictions exposed their reports as impossible=20 to
believe. In the case of Winslow, it was because an investigation = into=20 the
media trail of how the report originated, indicated strongly that = no=20 such
report was ever made, and that even if it was, it originated = from third=20 hand
hearsay . In the case of Liebner, it was shown quite = conclusively=20 that
Leibner never actually made the statement which you see in press = reports=20 and
on websites, and in fact was never even interviewed. Since I = wrote=20 the
article, another fabrication of a slightly different style has = emerged,=20 and
I'm going to deconstruct this one in order to demonstrate the=20 desperate
measures that have been used to try sell this outrageous=20 story.

http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/collection/rec= ord.asp?ID=3D28
(undated)
[[ Statement = from Penny=20 Elgas
Personal Experience At The Pentagon on September 11, 2001
By = Penny=20 Elgas

Traffic was at a standstill. I heard a rumble, looked out = my=20 driver's side
window and realized that I was looking at the nose of = an=20 airplane coming
straight at us from over the road (Columbia Pike) = that runs=20 perpendicular to
the road I was on. The plane just appeared there- = very low=20 in the air, to
the side of (and not much above) the CITGO gas station = that I=20 never knew was
there. My first thought was "Oh My God, this must be = World War=20 III!"

In that split second, my brain flooded with adrenaline and = I=20 watched
everything play out in ultra slow motion, I saw the plane = coming in=20 slow
motion toward my car and then it banked in the slightest turn in = front=20 of
me, toward the heliport. In the nano-second that the plane was = directly=20 over
the cars in front of my car, the plane seemed to be not more = than 80=20 feet
off the ground and about 4-5 car lengths in front of me. It was = far=20 enough
in front of me that I saw the end of the wing closest to me = and=20 the
underside of the other wing as that other wing rocked slightly = toward=20 the
ground. I remember recognizing it as an American Airlines plane = -- I=20 could
see the windows and the color stripes. And I remember thinking = that it=20 was
just like planes in which I had flown many times but at that = point it=20 never
occurred to me that this might be a plane with = passengers.
In my=20 adrenaline-filled state of mind, I was overcome by my visual = senses.
The day=20 had started out beautiful and sunny and I had driven to work with = my
car's=20 sunroof open. I believe that I may have also had one or more = car
windows open=20 because the traffic wasn't moving anyway. At the second that I
saw = the plane,=20 my visual senses took over completely and I did not hear or
feel = anything --=20 not the roar of the plane, or wind force, or impact sounds.

The = plane=20 seemed to be floating as if it were a paper glider and I watched
in = horror as=20 it gently rocked and slowly glided straight into the Pentagon.
At the = point=20 where the fuselage hit the wall, it seemed to simply melt into
the = building.=20 I saw a smoke ring surround the fuselage as it made contact
with the = wall. It=20 appeared as a smoke ring that encircled the fuselage at
the point of = contact=20 and it seemed to be several feet thick. I later
realized that it was = probably=20 the rubble of churning bits of the plane and
concrete. The churning = smoke=20 ring started at the top of the fuselage and
simultaneously wrapped = down both=20 the right and left sides of the fuselage to
the underside, where the = coiling=20 rings crossed over each other and then
coiled back up to the top. = Then it=20 started over again -- only this next
time, I also saw fire, glowing = fire in=20 the smoke ring. At that point, the
wings disappeared into the = Pentagon. And=20 then I saw an explosion and watched
the tail of the plane slip into = the=20 building. It was here that I closed my
eyes for a moment and when I = looked=20 back, the entire area was awash in thick
black = smoke...

...When I=20 arrived home, I turned on every radio and TV in the house -- I'm
not = sure=20 whether I was trying to drown out my thoughts or whether I was = just
hungry=20 for news. I made a cup of tea to calm my nerves and called my = husband
to let=20 him know that I was okay. I told him that there was a piece of = the
plane in=20 my car, but for some reason, I couldn't deal with it just yet. I
also = called=20 my son at college to reassure him that I was okay. Apparently, I
made = several=20 cups of tea that I don't remember making because later that day
I = found four=20 sopping teabags lined up on my kitchen counter. I believe now,
that I = was=20 operating on "auto-pilot"
and was probably in shock for much of that = day. At=20 some point I opted for
quiet and turned off all the noise except the = radio in=20 my kitchen. Then I
went to my car and faced that piece of the plane = that was=20 in the back seat.
It appeared to be a piece of the tail. There was no = metal=20 on it and it was
very lightweight -- all plastic and fiberglass. It = was 22"=20 long and 15"
wide. I have no idea how it got into my car because I do = not=20 remember seeing
any rubble flying around while I was at the crash = site. I=20 assume that it
dropped in through the sunroof or flipped in through a = window.=20 The plane
piece consisted of a layer of white paint, and layers of = yellow and=20 gray
fiberglass as well as a thin brown corrugated material.

I = gingerly picked up the piece and carried it into the house. As I = entered
the=20 kitchen, I heard the radio announcer on WMAL state that it was = an
American=20 Airlines flight and I thought to myself, "I knew that." But then
the=20 announcer said that is was Flight number 77 and he stated the number=20 of
passengers and crew and it hit me hard that the planes had been = full=20 of
innocent victims. The radio announcer said that they were taking = calls=20 from
people who had a personal experience to share. I dialed the = station.=20 I
remember that I told them that I was "Penny from Springfield" and = that I=20 had
a piece of the plane. The next thing I knew, I was on the air and = Chris=20 Core
said "Penny from Springfield, What did you see?" I don't = remember any of=20 the
rest of our conversation and coworkers who heard it said it was=20 somewhat
incoherent. The only thing that I remember is that at the = end, Chris=20 Core
said, "How weird is that?" And I remember thinking that his = comment=20 didn't
make me feel any better. ]]

Before pulling it apart, = lets note=20 that it's undated and unverified. It
appears to have emerged about a = year=20 after the incident. Anybody can turn up
a year later with a privately = written=20 statement and say whatever they like.
So the verification standards = are not=20 acceptable.

Let's begin with the entry of the plane into the = building.=20 This report
clearly indicates that the plane flew into the building = with=20 wings close to
parrellel and that both wings entered the building. I = think I=20 am on good
scientific ground when I state that a solid 125 ft object = cannot=20 pass
through another solid object without leaving a 125 ft hole. It=20 doesn't
matter how many eye witnesses might allege that they saw such = a=20 thing
happen - it didn't. Anyone who alleges that they saw such a = thing is=20 either
lying or deluded to the point of insanity - or else they saw a = smaller
plane, or a very sophisticated hologram or some kind of = highly=20 advanced,
secret matter teleportation technology. If it was a plane = small=20 enough to
fit into the hole, painted in AA colours, then the witness = could be=20 telling
the truth.The witness doesn't actually say anything about the = size of=20 the
plane, so it's possible that she could have seen this, and not = thought=20 it
through when later told that it was AA 77. Either way, this report = is=20 either
a lie or a report of something much smaller than a 757, = painted in=20 AA
colours.
Lets apply some more critical thinking.. This = part.

[[=20 I saw the plane coming in slow motion toward my car and then it banked = in
the=20 slightest turn in front of me, toward the heliport. ]]

If she had = a clear=20 view of 100 yards out of each window, then she would have
first seen = the=20 plane when it was about 100 yards from her car. If you check
the = location of=20 Columbia Pike where said the plane was when she first saw
it, and = Washington=20 Boulevard, which would appear to be the road that she was
on, then it = fits=20 with such an assumption. It was allegedly coming straight
towards = her. The=20 flying time from that point, to being directly over the
road is about = 1/2=20 second. The plane is a little over 50 yards long.It takes
about 1/4 = second to=20 fly it's own length. It allegedly discernibly changed it
's direction = in the=20 time that it took to fly twice it's own length -from one
quarter = second=20 increment to the next - from one plane length to the next.
Even if = that's=20 physically possible, the human eye could not pick this up. I'
ve = checked this=20 speed on the metronome. If you say the words "too fast" at a
quick = pace, it's=20 approximately the time of of the word "too". To suggest
that any = change in=20 direction could be detected in this time would be to
assert that the = plane=20 "jumped" like a film that's had some frames cut out.
Not = possible.

She=20 says that she went into slow motion mode. This can happen, when a = person
is=20 presented with a threatening situation at high speed, but there = are
limits.=20 As we shall see, this report well and truly exceeds those = limits.
Like=20 this.

[[ I saw a smoke ring surround the fuselage as it made = contact with=20 the
wall. It appeared as a smoke ring that encircled the fuselage at = the=20 point
of contact and it seemed to be several feet thick. I later = realized=20 that it
was probably the rubble of churning bits of the plane and = concrete.=20 The
churning smoke ring started at the top of the fuselage and=20 simultaneously
wrapped down both the right and left sides of the = fuselage to=20 the underside,
where the coiling rings crossed over each other and = then=20 coiled back up to
the top. Then it started over again -- only this = next time,=20 I also saw fire,
glowing fire in the smoke ring. At that point, the = wings=20 disappeared into
the Pentagon. And then I saw an explosion and = watched the=20 tail of the plane
slip into the building. ]]
This indicates that = the plane=20 sliced through the building quite easily. If
it's initial speed was = 400 mph,=20 then 300 mph seems a reasonable estimate of
it's passage through the = wall. At=20 440 ft per second., the whole plane would
have taken 350 milliseconds = to pass=20 through. Analyze the smoke ring cycles
in the first half of the = penetration.=20 There were two complete smoke rings in
the time of about 1/2 the = penetration=20 of the plane which is about 175 ms. 87
ms per smoke ring cycle. Each = cycle=20 was divided into 3 distinctly visible
stages. The appearance of the = smoke at=20 the top of the fuselage, the coiling
around to cross over at the = bottom, and=20 the coiling back up to cross again
at the top. About 29 ms per = section. This=20 is roughly equivalent to 1 video
or film frame. Video or film runs at = speeds=20 between 24 and 30 frames per
second, depending upon the format. About = 30 to=20 40 ms per frame. The whole
idea of this speed is that the human eye = can't=20 distinguish between one frame
and the next, making the motion appear=20 continuous and seamless. Except for
Penny Elgas, who has the = miraculous=20 ability to distinguish one frame from
another. Watching videos must = be a real=20 drag for her, because she can see
all the little tricks they do with = stunt=20 work and other cutting techniques.
On the brighter side, she'll never = be=20 short of a job as a referee or
lineswoman for the international = tennis=20 circuit. They should be lining up at
her door after this report. Then = another=20 three part series. The wings, the
explosion, the tail. About 27 ms - = 1 frame=20 each. I don't care how much
someone is in slow motion mode - the = human eye=20 and brain in combination
simply cannot register distinctly different = images=20 and event sequences at
this pace. In all, 10 distinct events have = been=20 described. 3 sections of
smoke ring times 2, the beginning of the = fire, the=20 entry of the wings, the
explosion, the entry of the tail. An average = of 35 ms=20 per image - 10
distinct images in 10 frames Again, using the "too = fast"=20 comparison, the
entire entry of the plane would take about as much = time as=20 the word 'fast".
As another comparison, try repeatedly clapping your = hands as=20 fast as you can
from a distance of about 2 ft between the hands, and = see how=20 blurred the
movement is. Each clap is about the total time that the = plane=20 took to enter
the building - and you only get one shot at seeing=20 it.

Now imagine registering 10 clear separate images, in smooth = sequence=20 within
each blurred handclap, registering details such as the = thickness of=20 the
smoke, and the crossover of the rings.

People in dangerous = situations can get adrenalin bursts which can trigger
extraordinary = feats of=20 strength. When someone who's experienced this
situation says that = they lifted=20 the side of an overturned car to free their
trapped partner, we are = inclined=20 to believe it. But if they say that they
jumped over a 100 ft fence = with the=20 adrenalin burst, we know that they have
crossed the line.This account = is the=20 visual equivalent of that 100 ft fence
jump. It's physiologically=20 impossible.

She says that after the explosion, the tail continued = to=20 "slip"into the
building. Hold on a moment - this is the explosion = which is=20 disintegrating
the plane to nothing - blowing outwards in all = directions, but=20 the tail is
continuing to slip serenely into it at the same time as = being=20 being cremated
by it? Even Hollywood doesn't bother with this = illusion in=20 explosion scenes,
because they know it's the exact opposite of what = happens.=20 When something is
travelling forward into a blast, it gets pushed = backwards=20 by the force. Of
course, if it has strong momentum, the two will = counteract=20 each other. But
it doesn't just keep travelling at the same speed = into the=20 point of the
blast, at the same time as being vapourized by it, like = being=20 fed into a
furnace on a conveyer belt. It wouldn't matter how many=20 eyewitnesses claimed
to see this happen - it didn't.

At the = same time=20 that the tail slipped serenely into this all consuming
blast, without = missing=20 a beat, a fragment of it was blown 100 yards back the
other way, to = land in=20 her car. Penny really should be relating this story at
physics = conferences=20 around the world. I'm sure they'll be busy rewriting the
rules of how = the=20 universe works after verifying this.

Now the claim that she was = able to=20 see the windows and colour stripes on the
plane. In total she = probably saw=20 the plane for about 1 second. Imagine
yourself stopped at an = intersection,=20 and a car goes past at 150 mph.
You are able to report to the police = that you=20 recognized the distinctive
gold, green,and black door trim of a mid = 80's=20 Falcon,and noticed that the
windows were tinted. Now multiply the = speed by=20 2.5.

That's only some of the problem. Elgas says that at the time = of=20 initial
sighting, the plane was headed straight towards her. She = can't have=20 got a
good view of the stripes and windows from front on, in the = first 1/4=20 second.
Then it was banking away a little and was directly over the = road,=20 with the
near wing banked up a little, so that she was looking up at = the=20 underside of
the wing. What could she see ? Go back to those photos = of 757s=20 and have a
look at the way they're built. The wing at the point where = it=20 joins the
fuselage is just on the lower stripe, and would obscure a = very=20 significant
section of the stripes and windows from this angle.The = engine=20 juts out
significantly forward of the wing. Very little of the = fuselage would=20 be
visible from this angle, during this 1/4 second window of = opportunity.=20 As
the wing extends out further, it gets narrower,but the closer=20 perspective
increases it's effective width in her vision. I'm not = saying that=20 the all of
the stripes and windows were completely obscured for the = whole=20 sighting, but
there would be a ridiculously short window of = opportunity to=20 catch any
glimpse, as the plane turned from it's front on view, to = it's wing=20 obscured
view. Then it would have been past her, with the 15 ft tail = fin ,=20 the
closest part of the plane, banked slightly, to show her the = underside,=20 and
obscuring a significant amount of any parting glimpse she might = have=20 got.The
phones will be running hot from the tennis = association!!

[[ In=20 the nano-second that the plane was directly over the cars in front = of
my car,=20 the plane seemed to be not more than 80 feet off the ground and
about = 4-5 car=20 lengths in front of me. ]]
4-5 car lengths can be approximated to = about 60=20 ft. The length of the wing
to the fuselage is 56 ft, making a total = of 116 ft=20 from driver to
fuselage.Subtract a little, as the plane is alleged to = be=20 slightly banked,
thus reducing the effective horizontal width. Offset = this=20 for the length of
her car's bonnet. Let's call the total distance = from=20 driver's eyes to
fuselage 118 ft. To make the maths easy, round it=20 t

------------Pt. 3
Physical and Mathematical analysis of = Pentagon=20 crash Part 3
by Gerard Holmgren . Wednesday October 23, 2002 at 02:40 = AM
investigation77 at hotmail.com

<= FONT=20 face=3DArial color=3D#000080 size=3D2>Continues from Part 1 = http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2002/10/1538136.php and
part 2 = http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2002/10/1538137.php

Let's call the total = distance from=20 driver's eyes to fuselage 118 ft. To make
the maths easy, round it to = 120.=20 Sitting in the car, her eyes are about 4 ft
off the ground, so the = effective=20 height of the plane from her eyeline is
about 76 ft. Round this to = 80. If you=20 check the angle made by something
which is 80 ft high and 120 ft = distant,=20 it's approximately 30 degrees. When
I sit in my car, a 30 degree = angle from=20 my eyes looks straight into the
folded up sun visor. In other words, = you=20 can't see something at this angle
from a car. Of course, it's a = little=20 different for each person, depending on
their car, seat position and = posture=20 Her distances, as in the case of
Wallace are subject to inaccuracy, = but the=20 point needs to be made that on
the basis of these figures it would be = impossible for her to see the
fuselage, from that height and = distance. The=20 open sun roof wouldn't help.
The fuselage would be behind the section = that=20 joins the windscreen to the
roof edge. Of course, with a moment to = spare, one=20 can change this by leaning
forward, but its been established that she = probably has about 1/4 of a
second to sight the small section of the = windows=20 and AA colour scheme that
isn't obscured by the wing. Because of the = many=20 variables, we can't state
with certainty that the fuselage was hidden = from=20 her vision, but when taken
at face value, it appears to be impossible = for her=20 to have seen it.

And now, the encore. The piece of plane that = found it's=20 way into her back
seat. If you've checked the link, you will have = seen the=20 photo of it, and
will unreservedly agree that it is definitely, = without=20 doubt, unequivocably
a piece of - ??? - a piece of whatever they tell = us it=20 is. It's turned up at
the Smithsonian museum, in a little patriotic = box,=20 which apparently proves
that it must have once been part of a 757. = And we=20 know that it was found in
Penny's back seat. We have absolute proof = of that=20 because she told us so.
Penny - as one of the few people on Earth who = has=20 actually witnessed a 125
ft solid object move through another solid = object=20 without leaving a 125 ft h
ole - and also with the help of some = adrenalin,=20 has performed the visual
equivalent of jumping over a 100 ft fence, = is not a=20 person who's word can be
doubted.

So this piece of the plane = which had=20 just been flung 100 yards out of a
violent explosion, with = temperatures=20 orders of magnitude above 700 degrees
C, just a few seconds before, = lobbed=20 into Penny's back seat, 1 to 2 feet
behind her head, so gently and = quietly=20 that she didn't even notice it -
which is strange for a person who = was in a=20 state of mind that enabled her
take in tiny details in 30 ms = increments.=20 Furthermore, the piece of plane
had miraculously cooled down during = it's 100=20 yard journey, to the extent
that nothing caught fire, or even singed, = or made=20 a burning smell in the
back seat. It just sat there quietly like a = good=20 little piece of plane
should, until she was ready to find it and put = it in=20 the little patriotic
box.

SUMMARY

It is physically = impossible=20 for all of the plane to have entered the crash
site, and this is = backed by=20 solid mathematical proof.

There is no evidence outside the = building of=20 wreckage to account for the
part of the plane which cannot have = entered the=20 crash site.

There is no evidence of identifiable wreckage inside = the=20 crash site.

Cremation of the plane was unprecedented in aviation = history=20 and physically
impossible.

Even could such cremation have been = possible, it is impossible in the
context of the modest damage to the = wall.
The hole in the back of the third ring cannot be explained by = any=20 means
other than a missile.

Fake wreckage has been designed = and=20 planted with the express purpose of
impersonating the American = Airlines=20 colour scheme.

Eyewitness evidence is inconclusive and fabricated = eyewitness reports have
been presented to try to shore up the = official=20 story.

Claims that DNA testing identified 63 of the 64 people on = board,=20 are
mutually exclusive with claims that the plane was cremated, and = with=20 the
official line on the WTC victims and the Bali bomb victims.
So = if it=20 didn't hit the Pentagon, what happened to AA 77 and the = passengers?
An=20 important question, but it's irrelevant to the argument of whether it = hit
the=20 Pentagon. By way of analogy, imagine a murder prosecution where = the
defence=20 has presented an overwhelmingly strong case - more than = just
reasonable doubt=20 - solid proof that the accused cannot possibly have
committed the = crime. But=20 then the prosecution plays it's trump card.

" But if your client = did not=20 commit the crime, then who did?"

The defence answers that it has = no idea.=20 Everyone would agree that a guilty
verdict on this basis, would be an = outrageous lapse of logic. Yet this is
precisely the same lapse of = logic as=20 suggesting that a lack of alternative
explanation for what happened = to the=20 plane and the passengers is in any way
relevant to the question of = whether it=20 hit the Pentagon. The government
knows what happened. Investigators = have to=20 work it out bit by bit. The full
truth will emerge in time, if a = methodical,=20 rational, step by step approach
is persevered with.
I can see one = good=20 reason to cling to the belief that AA 77 hit the
pentagon. The = unshakable=20 faith that the govt would not - could not lie to
us. A faith so = strong that=20 the laws that laws of physics and motion suspend
themselves in order = to=20 maintain it. A faith so strong that even the
government admitting = that it=20 lies cannot overturn it. This statement from
Solicitor General=20 Olsen.
http://old.smh.com.au/news/0203/20/world/world10.html

[[ "It's easy to imagine = an infinite=20 number of situations where the
government might legitimately give out = false=20 information," the
Solicitor-General, Theodore Olson, told the court = on=20 Monday.
"It's an unfortunate reality that the issuance of incomplete=20 information and
even misinformation by government may sometimes be = perceived=20 as necessary to
protect vital interests." ]]

Of course, he = could be=20 lying ...
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Put your free personal ad on to the system and then start browsing the 1000's of profiles now listed. http://www.123greetings.com/cgi-bin/sprinks.pl?101 ********************************************************* From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: testimony comes with an urgent plea to the influential sections of the world community to comprehend the magnitude of changes being wrought on the social fabric of Indian society by armed wings of fanatic Hindu groups that enjoy the political patronage of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), the party that dominates the National democratic alliance at power at the centre. For decades after independence, India stood poor but proud before the world community� a pride lent weight by the sagacious political choices of the people and it�s leadership that opted for a democratic form of governance despite the pressures of a violent vivisection of the Indian sub-continent on religious lines in 1947. A Constitution that articulated the basis for a secular, democratic republic assured India�s multi-religious, multi-ethnic, multi-lingual populace of the vision of an equal place under the sun. Today that dream lies shattered, an aggressive and violent, anti-minority politics dominates the public sphere and activists and organisations that speak with a voice of conscience have their lives openly threatened and seriously endangered. I would like to use this opportunity to speak specifically about the State Sponsored Genocide perpetrated on women, children and men of the state of Gujarat in March this year. It is not the first such pogrom against India�s religious minorities in past decades, but represents the culmination of a systematic, two decade long campaign of demonisation of the minorities that has not left the Christian community alone either. For two decades now, the country, it�s people and it�s secular, democratic ethos have been held ransom by the public posturings of hate and calculated demonisation of religious minorities. Abusive and provocative statements against India�s Christians and Muslims, by prominent leaders of this sinister movement, including many ministers in the central government like the deputy prime minister, even, have created a climate of complicity that allows gruesome violence to pass and often even be justified. The world needs to know and understand that the campaign to demolish a 400 year-old Mosque in the northern town of Ayodhya on December 6, 1992, a campaign that was watched by two men and a woman who are ministers in the NDA government today, was not a campaign to build a temple in the memory of a Hindu God but a campaign to seriously alter the nature and character of Indian democracy and Indian politics by showing Muslims (and Christians) their place � as second class citizens who�s lives, security, dignity, identities, religious and cultural beliefs and symbols are not secure. Gujarat is a land that gave the world Gandhi. In March 2002, Gujarat became a blot on the name and memory of the man who inspired Martin Luther King junior, Nelson Mandela and the world by his dogged faith in inter-faith toleration and non-violence from February 28 this year. On February 27, 02 a train carrying ordinary passengers and also heavily overcrowded with Hindu militants returning from the northern Indian town where they had gone to push for the building of the temple on the site of the demolished Mosque, had an incident of mass arson following which 58 passengers were burned alive. Until today, neither the official Commission of Inquiry nor the Concerned Citizens Tribunal �Gujarat 2002 has been able to ascertain the cause of the fire. What there is ample proof of, however is the abusive and provocative behaviour of the Hindu fanatic militants returning on the train. Yet, the State of Gujarat�-abusing every Constitutional norm and law� tacitly supported by some ministers of the Indian government used this incident to justify and launch a State Sponsored Genocide against the State�s Muslims in a macabre and medieval �tit-for-tat� brand of politics. � Over 2,000 lives were brutally taken by armed and militant squads led by elected representatives of the BJP also enjoying membership of brother Hindu organisations like the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad and the Bajrang Dal, with military precision over 3�4 days. � Over 250 girls and women were subjected to inhuman sexual crimes including rape simply because they were Muslim and women; representative of the �honour� of their community. � Over 33,000 children have been mute spectators to unmentionable violence being perpetrated on near and dear ones and neighbours. � The manner of killing was brutal. Men�s hands and fingers and toes were first cut off, their bodies then quartered before they were urinated upon and burned. Often there were no remains of the dead for the survivors of the Genocide. � Girls and women were stripped and paraded for lengths of time before they were gangraped, then (in most cases) quartered and killed. There are some survivors who have reneged on testimonies because of the utter collapse of the Indian criminal justice system to ensure justice and sensitivity to their plight. � Over 270 Mosques and Shrines representative of Islam and the Sufi traditions were targeted and destroyed. � Muslim businesses and establishments were selectively targeted amounting to a total loss of not less that Rs, 5,000 crores (put in dollars) � Over 2,50,000 persons were made refugees in their own neigbourhoods, and even relief and rehabilitation was callously denied by the State. It was community based NGOs and some others who chipped in. The International Community that had come overwhelmingly to the support of Gujarat victims of the earthquake of January 2001, was utterly absent in the relief and rehabilitation measures after the Gujarat Genocide. � Psychological and health needs of the survivor Muslim women were simply ignored. Even today women survivors have rebuilt their lives on their own steam and with some help from the community. � The State not only refused to involve itself in any serious relief and rehabilitation but showered further abuse on the victim by the Chief Minister passing offensive remarks about the Muslim refugees living in refugee camps. The absence of overwhelming resistance to this Genocide from the rest of non-Muslim civil society in Gujarat ensured through the generation of fear and terror by the hit squads of the Hindu fanatic groups and also, unfortunately through complicity in the hate speech and demonisation generated through a proliferation of this ideology � way of thinking in Gujarat. A frightening aspect of the ascendancy of this politics of violence and majoritarianism in India has been the co-option within its cadres and folds, of bands of Hindu women. In the unfortunate inter-community conflicts that we had prior to the growth of this brand of Hindu militant politics, say until the late 1970s or mid-1980s one discernible trend always was the manner in which women came to the help of victim women. As an active part of the Indian women�s movement, it was disturbing to watch the trends since the mid-eighties on the mobilisation of majority women as agents of violence. This has had to do with the focus of Hindu militant groups in actively building cadres among women; in even training women in arms training; and in also perpetrating a distorted version of Indian history that portray the Muslim as �marauder and rapist� to poison the minds of the young. Gandhi, who is still dear to international organisations and governments for his deep and moral commitment to non-violence, was shot dead by a man, a Hindu fanatic, who worshipped Hitler and believed that Gandhi�s non-violence had emasculated the Hindu Indian and robbed him of his masculinity. Gandhi said, and believed that in matters of conscience, the majority had no place. Nehru believed (or should I say predicted?) that �Fascism in India would come (or could come) in the garb of Hindu majoritarian and communalism.� Many of us in this struggle believe that the majority of the Indian people is still on our side. My worry is, their silence. Genocide is always and only possible with the tacit compliance of the silence of the majority. And I, and many of us, deeply worry that the majority has been silenced by the systematic half-truths and hate propaganda that any fascist agenda enlists. At the heart of the brutal, violent, anti-minority politics being systematically perpetrated within India, a politics moreover that has the tacit support of the government in power at the centre, is a sinister design to significantly alter the character of the Indian nation. To capture power, and thereafter convert the secular democratic republic of India into a Hindu rashtra (a Hindu nation). The admiration of the proponents of such a Hindu state for Hitler and his �final solution� that he practised on the Jews with such horrifying consequences is an ideal for the RSS, the organisation that is at the fountainhead of this ideology and this eulogisation of Facism and Nazism can be today found in Gujarat�s State Social Studies (History) Text Books. The National Human Rights Commission of India, and over three dozen Indian human rights factfinding reports have closely documented the Genocide that was Systematically perpetrated in the State of Gujarat. The latest document that is in the final stages of completion is the Report of the Concerned Citizens Tribunal�Gujarat 2002 that has at it�s help three leading, retired Judges of the Indian Judiciary�Justice VR Krishna Iyer, Justice PB Sawant and Justice Hosbet Suresh. The shocking extent of State Complicity and Planning in the Violence has been closely documented. Chief Minister of Gujarat Narendra Modi and his cabinet colleagues, Gordhan Zadaphiya, Haren Pandya, Naran Laloo Patel and Niteen Patel have been directly named as leading mobs that murdered and looted and committed unspeakable crimes. The Central government too, by refusing to intervene and put a stop to the violence is culpable in the Genocide, especially in its justification by constantly harking on a �Pakistan plot.� Worst of all is the increasingly evident partisan conduct of the Indian police that has been increasingly displaying an anti-minority bias in its functioning. In the on-going Gujarat Genocide, the conduct of the vast majority of the Gujarat police force was dictated by political influence and considerations; the few who stood by their uniform and the Indian constitution were punitively transferred. Internationally well-travelled office bearers of the Vishwa Hindu parishad (World Hindu Council) like Ashok Singhal and Praveen Togadia have been identified and named for being at the helm of the hate speech, venom and aggression carried on by their cadres. The Indian sub-continent and South Asia as a region sits on a precipice. Internal conflicts have external ramifications due to the ethnic compositions and divisions within the countries of the region. The region is that much more volatile and fragile due to the aggressive militarisation and nuclearisation pursued by India, followed by Pakistan. Sri Lanka stands wounded after over two decades of a bitter civil war. India�s northwestern and north eastern states are also regions where internal alienation has resulted in conflict, often supported and spawned by a hawkish Pakistan. India is a significant factor, a source of either balance or counter-balance in the region. A democratic, secular, internally conflict free India is vital for a stable, peaceful South Asia. A Hawkish India that screeches hate and venom against a section of it�s own populations spearheads it�s own and the region�s de-stablisation and poses a threat to international peace and security. In Bombay 1992�93, we saw a similar (but not so vital) pogrom against Muslims unleashed. Three months later serial bomb blasts took innocent lives in an act of retaliation. In Coimbatore in South India in 1998, following the singular targeting of the city�s minorities, similar bomb blasts three months later showed us what the �tit for tat� kind of politics can mean in real terms. After the Gujarat Genocide, the attack on the Akshardham temple in Gandhinagar at the end of September, has opened one more state to the vulnerability of terrorism. Before these planned and perpetrated attacks on the country�s minorities, constantly labelling them �anti-national� none of these three states within India would have been vulnerable for any Pakistani led or bred infiltration. India and Indians blame the rabid band of Hindu fanatics who attack innocent Indians through terror and violence, simply because they happen to be Muslims or Christians, for welcoming with open hands the possibility of terror squads within our borders Responsibility therefore rests surely with the global community to ensure that the circumstances that allowed the Gujarat Genocide 2002 to occur are mitigated, that justice is done to the victim survivors of the carnage, that the guilty are brought to trial and punished. We have serious information about the huge source of funding that the friends of the BJP raise overseas, often in the name of charity. These funds are, however, used for aggressive, anti-minority and anti-national activities back home. Should not the source of these funds be investigated?? In every sense, the events in Gujarat as described above is Genocide according to Art.2 of the UN Convention of Genocide. Moreover, the reports of victims and survivors being intimidated from going back to their homes and livelihood amounts to imposing conditions of life calculated to bring upon destruction of the community thereby constituting a continuing crime of Genocide. As a representative of the politically active, feminist and human rights community within India and as a passionate believer in peace and democracy within South Asia, I urge that the UN Security council passes a Resolution wherein the Council � Condemns the Genocide in Gujarat � Call upon the Indian State to ensure that Justice is Delivered to the Victims and Survivors � Ensures that Speedy and Effective Short and Long term Rehabilitation of the Victim Community takes place � Call upon the Indian State and the State of Gujarat to provide reparations for the victims of Genocide in Gujarat 2002 and allow International Teams and Observers to Visit Gujarat to make this possible. � Call upon member states to investigate and freeze the funds of groups like the Hindu Seva Sangh, the Sewa International, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad wherever they exist. � Call upon the member states to perform their obligation under the Genocide Convention exercising universal jurisdiction to prosecute those responsible for the crimes in the event of inability or unwillingness by the Indian states to do so. We Indians have a myth about ourselves. Every civilization has a myth about itself. Ours is that we are the most non-violent and tolerant people in the world. The events of the past months have exploded this myth. The India of Gandhi and Nehru is no more. For leaders of the international stage, now is time to act before events unfold that could shock the conscience of the world. If the international community fails now, let it be prepared to take in the moral responsibility of letting yet another holocaust happen. 23 October 2002 *Teesta Setalvad is a senior journalist, educator feminist and women�s rights activist. She has recently been co-awarded the Nuremberg International Human Rights Award 2003 for her work in Gujarat following the Genocide -- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Hypothesis 1: The ultimate goal in politics is generic Communism, thus the pure presentation of the collective�s truth, or the withering of the State. Hypothesis 2: The relation between philosophy and politics entails the evaluation of a certain politics� final goal, its general or generic meaning. Hypothesis 3: Democracy is a form of the State. Under these three hypotheses "democracy" is not a necessary concept of philosophy. It can only become such provided one of these three hypotheses is dropped. Three abstract possibilities follow: 1. Let generic Communism not be the ultimate goal in politics. 2. Let the relation between philosophy and politics not be one of scrutiny, enlightenment or legitimization of the final aims. 3. Let "democracy" imply something else than a form of the State. Under any of these three possibilities the structure according to which "democracy" is not a concept of philosophy is put into question. I would like to analyze one by one these three provisions which allow for the consideration or reconsideration of "democracy" as a category of philosophy proper. Let�s assume that the ultimate goal of politics is not the pure assertion of collective presentation, is not the free association of men, disengaged from the State�s principle of sovereignty. Let�s assume that generic Communism, even as an idea, is not the ultimate goal of politics. What can then be the goal of politics, its practice�s finality, much as this practice involves, or questions, or challenges, philosophy? I think two main hypotheses can be construed in light of what is viewed as the history of this question. According to the first hypothesis, politics� aim would be the configuration, or the advent, of what can be termed "the good State." Philosophy would be brought forward as an examination of the legitimacy of the State�s various possible forms. It would seek to name the preferable character of state configuration. Such would be the final stake of the debate on politics� goals. This is indeed related to the great classical tradition in political philosophy, from the Greeks onwards, devoted to the question of sovereignty�s legitimacy. Now, of course, a norm appears on the scene. Whatever the regime or the status of the norm, an axiological preference for a distinct type of state configuration relates the State to a normative principle as, for instance, the superiority of a democratic regime over a monarchic or an aristocratic one, for any particular reason. That is, the convening of a general system of norms sanctions this preference. As a passing remark let�s say this situation does not apply to the hypothesis in which the ultimate goal in politics is the withering of the State, since you are not dealing with "the good State." For the case you are dealing with the political process as self-cancellation, that is as engaged in the cessation of the principle of sovereignty. It does not concern a norm associated with the state configuration. It rather concerns the idea of a process that would bring about the withering of the entire state configuration. The singularity of withering does not belong to the normative question as it can be exerted upon the persistence of the State. On the other hand, if politics� ultimate goal is "the good State" or the preferable State, then the emergence of a norm seems ineluctable. Now, this poses a difficult question in that the norm is inevitably external or transcendent. The State, in itself, is objectivity without norm. It is the principle of sovereignty, or of coercion, endowed with a separate functioning necessary to the collective as such. It will obtain its determination in a set of regulations stemming from subjective topics. These are precisely the norms that will introduce the subject of "the good State" or the preferable State. In our present situation, that is, the circumstance in our parliamentary States, the subjective relation to the issue of the State is regulated according to three norms: the economy, the national question and, precisely, democracy. Let�s consider the economy first. The State is accountable for assuring a minimal functioning of the circulation and distribution of goods; it falls into disrepute as such if it proves exaggeratedly incapable of complying with this norm. In the sphere of the economy broadly, whatever its organic relation to the State, the latter is subjectively accountable for the functioning of the economy. The second norm is the national question. The State is under a set of regulations such as the nation, the representation on the world scene, national independence, etc. It is accountable for the very existence of the national principle at home and abroad. Thirdly, today democracy is itself a norm as it�s considered within the subjective relation to the State. The State is accountable for knowing wether it is democratic or despotic, for its relation towards instances such as freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of action. The opposition between dictatorship and democracy is something that functions as a subjective norm in the evaluation of the State. Thus the actual situation of the question subordinates the State to the threesome normative of economic functioning, national evaluation and democracy. Here "democracy" acts as a normative characterization of the State, precisely as what can be termed the category of "a politics," not of politics in general. "A politics" is what regulates a subjective relation to the State. Let�s say that the state configuration regulating its subjective relation to the State under the three aforementioned norms � economy, national question, democracy � may be dubbed parliamentarism, though I prefer to call it parliamentary-capitalism. However, since "democracy" is here summoned as the category of a particular politics � a particular politics whose universality is quite problematic � we should refrain from defining it as being in itself a philosophical category. At this level of analysis then "democracy" unfolds as a category characterizing � by means of the formulation of a subjective norm in relation to the State � a particular politics, which I deem to call "parliamentarism." So much for the case with regard to the hypothesis that politics� ultimate goal is in determining "the good State." What you get at most is that "democracy" turns out to be the category of a particular politics, parliamentarism. This is not a definite reason to posit "democracy" as a philosophical concept. What we are examining here is the ultimate goal of politics when this goal is not generic Communism. Our first consideration was that politics aimed at establishing the best possible State. It follows from there that "democracy" is not necessarily a concept within philosophy. The second possible reasoning leads you to the notion that the ultimate goal of politics is none other than itself. In this case politics would not address the issue of "the good State" but would be its own goal for itself. Conversely to what has been reflected previously, politics would then become a movement of thought and action that freely eludes the dominant state subjectivity and propounds, convenes, organizes projects ill-suited for consideration and representation within the norms under which the State functions. In this case politics is presented as a singular collective practice estranged from the State. Again that kind of politics, in its essence, is not the carrier of a State agenda or a state norm but instead the development of what can be termed as the dimension of collective freedom, precisely in that it avoids the normative consensus represented by the State � provided the State is assessed by this organized freedom. "Democracy," is it thus relevant? Yes, "democracy" is relevant "if democracy is to be understood in a sense other than a form of the State." If politics is thus to itself its own goal insofar as it is able to withdraw from state consensus, it could eventually be termed democratic. Yet in this case the category will not function in a Leninist sense, as a State form. And this brings you back to the third negative condition with regard to the three Leninist hypotheses. Here concludes the first part of our discussion, that is: what if the goal of politics is not generic Communism? The second part of the discussion concerns philosophy itself. Let�s assume that philosophy is not related to politics as much as it is the representation or the seizure of politics� ultimate ends, that philosophy has another rapport to politics and that it is not intended to evaluate � the appearance before a court � or legitimate politics� ultimate ends. How does then philosophy relate to politics? What is the name of that relation? How are we to prescribe it? There is a first hypothesis, namely that the task of philosophy would be what I call the formal description of politics, its typology. Philosophy would set up a space where politics are discussed in accordance with their sort. All in all, philosophy would be a formal apprehension of States and politics as it pre-elaborates or exposes the said typology to possible norms. Yet, when this is the case � indubitably this is part of the work of thinkers such as Aristotle or Montesquieu � it becomes apparent that "democracy" acts upon philosophy as the description of a form of the State. There is no doubt about it. Accordingly, the categorization starts from state configurations, and "democracy" becomes, from the viewpoint of philosophy, the description of a form of the State, as opposed to other forms such as tyranny, aristocracy and so on. But if "democracy" designates a form of the State, the premise would then be asserted, regarding this form, about "the goals of politics." Is it a matter of "willing" this form? If so, we are inside the logic of "the good State," which is what was previously analyzed. Or is it a matter of going beyond this form, dissolving sovereignty, even democratic sovereignty? In this case we relapse inside the Leninist frame, the withering hypothesis. In any event, this option brings you back to the first part of the discussion. The second possibility implies philosophy�s attempt to apprehend politics as a singular activity of thinking, of politics itself as providing for the historical collective a modality of thinking which philosophy must take in as such. Here philosophy should be understood � consensual definition � as the cogitative apprehension of thinking operational conditions in their different registers. If politics is deemed as an operative thinking, in a register of its own (Lazarus� central thesis), then philosophy�s task is the grasping of thinking operational conditions in this particular register named politics. It follows that if politics is an operative thinking, it cannot be subservient to the State, it cannot be reduced to or reflected on its state dimension. Let�s venture a rather spurious proposition: "the State does not think." As a passing remark, the fact that the State does not think is the source of all sorts of difficulties for philosophical thinking as far as politics is concerned. All "political philosophies" adduce evidence that the State does not think. And when these political philosophies posit the State as leading the research on politics as thought, difficulties increase. The fact that the State does not think leads Plato, at the end of book IX in Republic, to declare that as a last resort you can pursue politics everywhere except in your own fatherland. And the same eventuality brings Aristotle to the distressing conclusion that once the ideal types of politics have been isolated, only pathological types are left in the real. For instance, for Aristotle monarchy implies a kind of State that does think and is reputed to be thinkable. Yet, in the real there are only tyrannies, which do not think, which are unthinkable. The normative type is never achieved. This also leads Rousseau to ascertain that in history all that exists are dissolved States, and no legitimate State. Finally, these postulates, which are extracted from within utterly heterogeneous political conceptions, agree on one point: namely, it is not possible to envision the State as the doorway to politics� research. Perforce one comes up against the State as a non-thinking entity. The problem should be pursued from another angle. Therefore, if "democracy" is a category of politics-as-thought, that is if philosophy needs to use "democracy" as a category to get hold of the political process as such, then this political process eludes the pervasive injunction of the State, since the State does not think. It follows that "democracy" is not here understood as a form of the State but differently, otherwise, or in another sense. And this is how you are brought back to the proposition positing "democracy" as something other than a form of the State. Let�s then advance a provisional conclusion: "democracy" is a category of philosophy only when it indicates something other than a form of the State. Yet what is "something other"? There lies the core of the question. It is a problem with conjunction. To what, other than the State, is "democracy" to be conjoined in order to become a real approach to politics-as-thought? There is a large political tradition pertinent to this, and I won�t go further into it. Let�s suffice to mention just two examples concerning the attempt to conjoin "democracy" to something other than the State thus allowing the meta-political (philosophical) re-examination of politics-as-thought. The first instance concerns the direct conjoining of "democracy" to the masses political activity � not to the state configuration but to its immediate antagonism. For usually the masses� political activity, its spontaneous mobilization, comes about under an anti-state drive. This produces the syntagm of mass democracy, which I�ll style romantic, and the opposition between mass democracy and democracy as state configuration, or formal democracy. Whoever happens to have experienced mass democracy � historical events such as collective general assembling, crowded gatherings, riots, and so on � manifestly notices an immediate point of reversibility between mass democracy and mass dictatorship. Inevitably the essence of mass democracy is translated into a mass sovereignty, and this mass sovereignty becomes in turn a sovereignty of immediacy, of assembling itself. The sovereignty of assembling exerts � pattern formations Sartre termed "group-in-fusion" � a fellowship of terror. Here Sartrian phenomenology persists indisputably. There is an organic correlation between the practice of mass democracy as internal principle of the group-in-fusion and a point of reversibility with the immediate authoritarian or dictatorial element at work in the fellowship of terror. Looking into the issue of mass democracy itself notice that it is not possible to legitimate the principle after the sole appellative of democracy, since this romantic democracy immediately includes, in theory as well as in practice, its reversibility into dictatorship. You are dealing thus with a pair democracy/dictatorship that avoids an elementary designation, or eludes a philosophical apprehension, under the concept of democracy. And what does this entail? It entails that whoever assigns legitimacy to mass democracy, at least today, does so on the basis, or rather from the viewpoint of the non-state perspective of pure presentation. The appraisal, even under the appellation of democracy, of mass democracy as such, is inseparable from the subjectivity of generic Communism. The legitimization of this couple of immediacy � democracy/dictatorship � is only conceivable if the pair is thought, and valorized, from the generic point of the withering of the State, or from the perspective of a radical anti-state attitude. Actually, the opposite pole to State consistency, which precisely shows up in the immediacy of mass democracy, is a provisional representative to generic Communism. We are now brought back to our first major hypothesis: if "democracy" is conjoined to "mass," the goal of politics is actually generic Communism, whence "democracy" is not a category of philosophy. This conclusion is empirically and conceptually established by the fact that from the perspective of mass democracy it is impossible to differentiate democracy from dictatorship. It is what has obviously enabled Marxists to employ the expression "dictatorship of the proletariat." It should be our understanding that the subjective valorization of the word "dictatorship" thus rested on the presence of such reversibility between democracy and dictatorship as it historically appears in the figure of mass democracy, or revolutionary democracy, or romantic democracy. We are left with another hypothesis, a quite different one: "democracy" should be conjoined with the political regulation itself. "Democracy" would not be related to the figure of State or to the figure in political mass activity, but would rather relate organically to political regulation, provided that political regulation is not subservient to the State, to "the good State," when it is not systematized. "Democracy" would be organically tied to the universality of political regulation, to its capability of universality, and thus the word "democracy" and politics as such would be bound. Again, politics in the sense that it is something other than a State program. There would be an intrinsically democratic characterization of politics, insofar as its self-determination is posited as a space of emancipation removed from State consensual figures. There is some evidence of this in Rousseau�s Social Contract. In chapter 16, book III, Rousseau discusses the issue of the establishment of the State � apparently the opposite topic we are discussing here � the issue of the institution of the State. He comes up against a well-known difficulty, namely that the causative instrument of government cannot be a contract, cannot proceed from the dimension of a social contract in the sense that this contract acts as founder of the nation as such. The institution of the State concerns specific individuals, and this cannot be carried out by means of a law. For Rousseau a law necessarily implies a global association relating the people to the people and thereby cannot involve specific individuals. The institution of the State cannot be a law. And this suggests that it also cannot be the practice of sovereignty. For sovereignty is precisely the generic form of the social contract and it always connotes a relation of totality to totality � of the people to the people. Apparently, we face an impasse here. A decision is needed, a decision that should be at the same time special (since it establishes the government) and general (since it�s taken by the "totality" of the people and not by the government, which does not yet exist and will eventually be established). However, it is impossible, for Rousseau, that this decision result from the general will, since every decision of this kind should be manifested in the shape of a law or a deed of sovereignty. And this can only be the contract agreed upon by all the people and all the people, a contract that bears no particular character. You can also posit the question this way: the citizen votes the laws, the governmental magistrate takes the concrete measures. How are particular magistrates to be appointed when there aren�t yet any magistrates, but only citizens? Rousseau pulls himself out of this difficulty by stating that "the institution of government is accomplished by the sudden conversion of sovereignty into democracy so that without sensible change, and merely by virtue of a new relation of all to all, the citizens become magistrates, and pass from general to particular acts, from legislation to the execution of the law." For many this was a singular conjuring trick. What does this sudden conversion without any modification of the organic relationship between totality to totality mean? How does a mere displacement of this relation, which is the social contract as instituting the general will, allow for the proceeding to the possibility of initiating particular political acts? Basically this means � leaving aside the formal argumentation � that democracy is originally referred "to the particular character of the interests at stake in political regulation." Political regulation with its particular interests at stake � in the last resort it only has particular stakes � is confined to democracy. Rousseau�s case for the establishment of government is but one symbolic example. Generally speaking, the universality of political regulation � much as it evades the singular holding of the State � can be deployed as such only when particular interests are at stake and is constrained, when deployed under particular stakes, if only to invest the democratic form in order to remain political. Here a primary conjunction between democracy and politics effectively takes place. Democracy can then be defined as what authorizes an individual investment under the law of the universality of political will. "Democracy," in a way, names the political figures of the conjunction between particular situations and politics. In this case, and in this case only, "democracy" can be recaptured as a philosophical category. Hereafter democracy will designate what can be termed as the effectiveness in politics. Meaning politics when it conjoins with particular interests. Thus understood politics becomes free from its accountability to the State. In order to pursue this contention you would expound on how "democracy," in this conjunction to political regulation as such, refers in philosophy to the taking in of a specific kind of politics whose regulation is universal. Still this specific kind of politics may conjoin to the particular in a figure wherein situations transform so as to render impossible any other inequitable enunciation. The reasoning of this position is rather complex and I present a brief outline. Let�s say that "democracy" posits the fact that politics � with regard to a politics of emancipation � is sooner or later related to the special nature of people�s lives, not to the State, but to people as they come forth in the public space. Again, politics cannot be itself, which is being democratic, in its dealing with this particularity in people�s lives, unless it dismisses all inequitable sense in the very dealing. For, if politics allows for an inequitable acceptation in its dealing, then it introduces a nondemocratic norm � in the original sense I am addressing here � and the conjunction is cancelled. This means politics is no longer competent to deal with the particular from the perspective of the universal regulation. Politics will deal with the particular differently; it will deal with it from the perspective of the particular regulation. Thus, the case would be that every particular regulation redirects politics towards the State where it is subjected to the constraint of state jurisdiction. Consequently, the word "democracy," in its philosophical significance, presupposes a kind of politics insofar as the effectiveness of its emancipatory process works at the impossibility proper of all inequitable enunciation in concern with this situation. For the aim of this kind of politics to be real proceeds from the fact that these enunciations are, by means of such politics, not forbidden but impossible. Interdiction is always a rule of the State; impossibility is a regulation of the real. Also democracy as a philosophical category is what "brings forward equality." Or, what excludes from circulating as political nominations � or as political categories � any sort of predicate formally in contradiction with the egalitarian idea. In my view, this very fact drastically restricts the possibility of using in politics, under the philosophical sign of democracy, any type of "communal" designations. For the communal designation or the identity assignation to the subsets as such cannot be dealt with after the idea of the impossibility of an inequitable enunciation. Consequently, �democracy" is that which regulates politics in relation to communal predicates, to subset predicates. Democracy is that which anchors politics to the element of universality proper to its destination. It will also expose articulations of race as well as sexual or social or hierarchic articulations, or an enunciation such as: "there is a problem with immigrants," will undo the conjunction between politics and democracy. "Democracy" means that "immigrant," "French," "Arab," "Jew" are words that inevitably bring calamity to politics. For these words, and many others, necessarily refer politics to the State, and the lowest and most essential function of the State is the inequitable breaking of mankind. Ultimately, the task of the philosopher consists of exposing a certain politics to its evaluation. Neither in the sense of "the good State," nor in the sense of generic Communism, but intrinsically, that is to say for itself. Politics sequentially defined as that which attempts to create the impossibility of the inequitable enunciation, might, by the slant of the word "democracy," be exposed through philosophy to what I�ll call a certain eternity. Let�s say that by means of the word "democracy" thus conceived, by means of philosophy and philosophy alone, politics can be evaluated after the rule of the eternal return. Then philosophy takes hold of politics, not just as the particular or pragmatic avatar of human history, but as connected to a standard of evaluation, which upholds without ridicule, or without crime, that the return be foreseen. In the end a very old word, a word very much worn, philosophically nominates those politics that overcome this ordeal: it�s the word "justice." Highly Speculative Reasoning on the Concept of Democracy* Alain Badiou translated by Jorge Jauregui The word "democracy" is today the main organizer of consensus. What the word is assumed to embrace is the downfall of Eastern Socialists States, the supposed well being of our countries as well as Western humanitarian crusades. Actually the word "democracy" is inferred from what I term "authoritarian opinion." It is somehow prohibited not to be a democrat. Accordingly, it furthers that the human kind longs for democracy, and all subjectivity suspected of not being democratic is deemed pathological. At its best it infers a forbearing reeducation, at its worst the right of meddling democratic marines and paratroopers. Democracy thus inscribing itself in polls and consensus necessarily arouses the philosopher�s critical suspicions. For philosophy, since Plato, means breaking with opinion polls. Philosophy is supposed to scrutinize everything that is spontaneously considered as "normal." If democracy designates a normal state of collective organization, or political will, then the philosopher will ask for the norm of this normality to be examined. He will not allow for the word to function within the frame of an authoritarian opinion. For the philosopher everything consensual becomes suspicious. To confront the visibility of the democratic idea with the singularity of a particular politics, especially revolutionary politics, is an old practice. It was already employed against Bolsheviks well before the October Revolution. In fact, the critique addressed to Lenin � his political postulate viewed as nondemocratic � is original. However it�s still interesting today to peruse his riposte. Lenin�s counter-argument is twofold. On the one hand he distinguishes, according to the logic of class analysis, between two types of democracy: proletarian democracy and bourgeois democracy. He then asserts the supremacy, in extension and intensity, of the former over the latter. Yet his second structure of response seems to me more appropriate to the present state of affairs. Lenin insists in this that with "democracy," verily, you should always read "a form of State." Form means a particular configuration of the separate character of the State and the formal exercise of sovereignty. Positing democracy as a form of State, Lenin subscribes to the classical political thinking filiation, including Greek philosophy, which contends that "democracy" must ultimately be conceived as a sovereignty or power trope. Power of the "demos" or people, the capability of "demos" to exert coercion by itself. If democracy is a form of State, what preordained philosophical use proper can this category have? With Lenin the aim � or idea � of politics is the withering of any form of State, democracy included. And this could be termed generic Communism as basically expressed by Marx in his Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts. Generic Communism designates a free associative egalitarian society where the activity of polymorph workers is not governed by regulations and technical or social articulations but is managed by the collective power of needs. In such a society, the State is dissolved as a separate instance from public coercion. Politics � much as it voices the interests of social groups and covets at the conquest of power � is de facto dissolved. Thus, the purpose of Communist politics aims at its own disappearance in the modality of the end of the form separated from the State in general, even if it concerns a State that declares itself democratic. If philosophy is predicated as what identifies, legitimizes or categorizes politics� ultimate goals, much as the regulating ideas acting as its representation, and if this aim is acknowledged as the withering of the State � which is Lenin�s proposition � and what can be termed pure presentation, free association; or again if politics� final goal is posited as authority in-separated from infinity or the advent of the collective as such, then, with regard to this supposed end, which is the end assigned to generic Communism, democracy is not, cannot be a category as regards philosophy. Why? Because democracy is a form of the State; let philosophy assess politics� final goals; and let this end be as well the end of the State, thus the end of all relevance to the word "democracy." The "philosophical" word suitable to evaluate politics could be, in this hypothetical frame, the word "equality," or the word "Communism," but not the word "democracy." For this word is traditionally attached to the State, to the form of the State. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Hypothesis 1: The ultimate goal in politics is generic Communism, thus the pure presentation of the collective�s truth, or the withering of the State. Hypothesis 2: The relation between philosophy and politics entails the evaluation of a certain politics� final goal, its general or generic meaning. Hypothesis 3: Democracy is a form of the State. Under these three hypotheses "democracy" is not a necessary concept of philosophy. It can only become such provided one of these three hypotheses is dropped. Three abstract possibilities follow: 1. Let generic Communism not be the ultimate goal in politics. 2. Let the relation between philosophy and politics not be one of scrutiny, enlightenment or legitimization of the final aims. 3. Let "democracy" imply something else than a form of the State. Under any of these three possibilities the structure according to which "democracy" is not a concept of philosophy is put into question. I would like to analyze one by one these three provisions which allow for the consideration or reconsideration of "democracy" as a category of philosophy proper. Let�s assume that the ultimate goal of politics is not the pure assertion of collective presentation, is not the free association of men, disengaged from the State�s principle of sovereignty. Let�s assume that generic Communism, even as an idea, is not the ultimate goal of politics. What can then be the goal of politics, its practice�s finality, much as this practice involves, or questions, or challenges, philosophy? I think two main hypotheses can be construed in light of what is viewed as the history of this question. According to the first hypothesis, politics� aim would be the configuration, or the advent, of what can be termed "the good State." Philosophy would be brought forward as an examination of the legitimacy of the State�s various possible forms. It would seek to name the preferable character of state configuration. Such would be the final stake of the debate on politics� goals. This is indeed related to the great classical tradition in political philosophy, from the Greeks onwards, devoted to the question of sovereignty�s legitimacy. Now, of course, a norm appears on the scene. Whatever the regime or the status of the norm, an axiological preference for a distinct type of state configuration relates the State to a normative principle as, for instance, the superiority of a democratic regime over a monarchic or an aristocratic one, for any particular reason. That is, the convening of a general system of norms sanctions this preference. As a passing remark let�s say this situation does not apply to the hypothesis in which the ultimate goal in politics is the withering of the State, since you are not dealing with "the good State." For the case you are dealing with the political process as self-cancellation, that is as engaged in the cessation of the principle of sovereignty. It does not concern a norm associated with the state configuration. It rather concerns the idea of a process that would bring about the withering of the entire state configuration. The singularity of withering does not belong to the normative question as it can be exerted upon the persistence of the State. On the other hand, if politics� ultimate goal is "the good State" or the preferable State, then the emergence of a norm seems ineluctable. Now, this poses a difficult question in that the norm is inevitably external or transcendent. The State, in itself, is objectivity without norm. It is the principle of sovereignty, or of coercion, endowed with a separate functioning necessary to the collective as such. It will obtain its determination in a set of regulations stemming from subjective topics. These are precisely the norms that will introduce the subject of "the good State" or the preferable State. In our present situation, that is, the circumstance in our parliamentary States, the subjective relation to the issue of the State is regulated according to three norms: the economy, the national question and, precisely, democracy. Let�s consider the economy first. The State is accountable for assuring a minimal functioning of the circulation and distribution of goods; it falls into disrepute as such if it proves exaggeratedly incapable of complying with this norm. In the sphere of the economy broadly, whatever its organic relation to the State, the latter is subjectively accountable for the functioning of the economy. The second norm is the national question. The State is under a set of regulations such as the nation, the representation on the world scene, national independence, etc. It is accountable for the very existence of the national principle at home and abroad. Thirdly, today democracy is itself a norm as it�s considered within the subjective relation to the State. The State is accountable for knowing wether it is democratic or despotic, for its relation towards instances such as freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of action. The opposition between dictatorship and democracy is something that functions as a subjective norm in the evaluation of the State. Thus the actual situation of the question subordinates the State to the threesome normative of economic functioning, national evaluation and democracy. Here "democracy" acts as a normative characterization of the State, precisely as what can be termed the category of "a politics," not of politics in general. "A politics" is what regulates a subjective relation to the State. Let�s say that the state configuration regulating its subjective relation to the State under the three aforementioned norms � economy, national question, democracy � may be dubbed parliamentarism, though I prefer to call it parliamentary-capitalism. However, since "democracy" is here summoned as the category of a particular politics � a particular politics whose universality is quite problematic � we should refrain from defining it as being in itself a philosophical category. At this level of analysis then "democracy" unfolds as a category characterizing � by means of the formulation of a subjective norm in relation to the State � a particular politics, which I deem to call "parliamentarism." So much for the case with regard to the hypothesis that politics� ultimate goal is in determining "the good State." What you get at most is that "democracy" turns out to be the category of a particular politics, parliamentarism. This is not a definite reason to posit "democracy" as a philosophical concept. What we are examining here is the ultimate goal of politics when this goal is not generic Communism. Our first consideration was that politics aimed at establishing the best possible State. It follows from there that "democracy" is not necessarily a concept within philosophy. The second possible reasoning leads you to the notion that the ultimate goal of politics is none other than itself. In this case politics would not address the issue of "the good State" but would be its own goal for itself. Conversely to what has been reflected previously, politics would then become a movement of thought and action that freely eludes the dominant state subjectivity and propounds, convenes, organizes projects ill-suited for consideration and representation within the norms under which the State functions. In this case politics is presented as a singular collective practice estranged from the State. Again that kind of politics, in its essence, is not the carrier of a State agenda or a state norm but instead the development of what can be termed as the dimension of collective freedom, precisely in that it avoids the normative consensus represented by the State � provided the State is assessed by this organized freedom. "Democracy," is it thus relevant? Yes, "democracy" is relevant "if democracy is to be understood in a sense other than a form of the State." If politics is thus to itself its own goal insofar as it is able to withdraw from state consensus, it could eventually be termed democratic. Yet in this case the category will not function in a Leninist sense, as a State form. And this brings you back to the third negative condition with regard to the three Leninist hypotheses. Here concludes the first part of our discussion, that is: what if the goal of politics is not generic Communism? The second part of the discussion concerns philosophy itself. Let�s assume that philosophy is not related to politics as much as it is the representation or the seizure of politics� ultimate ends, that philosophy has another rapport to politics and that it is not intended to evaluate � the appearance before a court � or legitimate politics� ultimate ends. How does then philosophy relate to politics? What is the name of that relation? How are we to prescribe it? There is a first hypothesis, namely that the task of philosophy would be what I call the formal description of politics, its typology. Philosophy would set up a space where politics are discussed in accordance with their sort. All in all, philosophy would be a formal apprehension of States and politics as it pre-elaborates or exposes the said typology to possible norms. Yet, when this is the case � indubitably this is part of the work of thinkers such as Aristotle or Montesquieu � it becomes apparent that "democracy" acts upon philosophy as the description of a form of the State. There is no doubt about it. Accordingly, the categorization starts from state configurations, and "democracy" becomes, from the viewpoint of philosophy, the description of a form of the State, as opposed to other forms such as tyranny, aristocracy and so on. But if "democracy" designates a form of the State, the premise would then be asserted, regarding this form, about "the goals of politics." Is it a matter of "willing" this form? If so, we are inside the logic of "the good State," which is what was previously analyzed. Or is it a matter of going beyond this form, dissolving sovereignty, even democratic sovereignty? In this case we relapse inside the Leninist frame, the withering hypothesis. In any event, this option brings you back to the first part of the discussion. The second possibility implies philosophy�s attempt to apprehend politics as a singular activity of thinking, of politics itself as providing for the historical collective a modality of thinking which philosophy must take in as such. Here philosophy should be understood � consensual definition � as the cogitative apprehension of thinking operational conditions in their different registers. If politics is deemed as an operative thinking, in a register of its own (Lazarus� central thesis), then philosophy�s task is the grasping of thinking operational conditions in this particular register named politics. It follows that if politics is an operative thinking, it cannot be subservient to the State, it cannot be reduced to or reflected on its state dimension. Let�s venture a rather spurious proposition: "the State does not think." As a passing remark, the fact that the State does not think is the source of all sorts of difficulties for philosophical thinking as far as politics is concerned. All "political philosophies" adduce evidence that the State does not think. And when these political philosophies posit the State as leading the research on politics as thought, difficulties increase. The fact that the State does not think leads Plato, at the end of book IX in Republic, to declare that as a last resort you can pursue politics everywhere except in your own fatherland. And the same eventuality brings Aristotle to the distressing conclusion that once the ideal types of politics have been isolated, only pathological types are left in the real. For instance, for Aristotle monarchy implies a kind of State that does think and is reputed to be thinkable. Yet, in the real there are only tyrannies, which do not think, which are unthinkable. The normative type is never achieved. This also leads Rousseau to ascertain that in history all that exists are dissolved States, and no legitimate State. Finally, these postulates, which are extracted from within utterly heterogeneous political conceptions, agree on one point: namely, it is not possible to envision the State as the doorway to politics� research. Perforce one comes up against the State as a non-thinking entity. The problem should be pursued from another angle. Therefore, if "democracy" is a category of politics-as-thought, that is if philosophy needs to use "democracy" as a category to get hold of the political process as such, then this political process eludes the pervasive injunction of the State, since the State does not think. It follows that "democracy" is not here understood as a form of the State but differently, otherwise, or in another sense. And this is how you are brought back to the proposition positing "democracy" as something other than a form of the State. Let�s then advance a provisional conclusion: "democracy" is a category of philosophy only when it indicates something other than a form of the State. Yet what is "something other"? There lies the core of the question. It is a problem with conjunction. To what, other than the State, is "democracy" to be conjoined in order to become a real approach to politics-as-thought? There is a large political tradition pertinent to this, and I won�t go further into it. Let�s suffice to mention just two examples concerning the attempt to conjoin "democracy" to something other than the State thus allowing the meta-political (philosophical) re-examination of politics-as-thought. The first instance concerns the direct conjoining of "democracy" to the masses political activity � not to the state configuration but to its immediate antagonism. For usually the masses� political activity, its spontaneous mobilization, comes about under an anti-state drive. This produces the syntagm of mass democracy, which I�ll style romantic, and the opposition between mass democracy and democracy as state configuration, or formal democracy. Whoever happens to have experienced mass democracy � historical events such as collective general assembling, crowded gatherings, riots, and so on � manifestly notices an immediate point of reversibility between mass democracy and mass dictatorship. Inevitably the essence of mass democracy is translated into a mass sovereignty, and this mass sovereignty becomes in turn a sovereignty of immediacy, of assembling itself. The sovereignty of assembling exerts � pattern formations Sartre termed "group-in-fusion" � a fellowship of terror. Here Sartrian phenomenology persists indisputably. There is an organic correlation between the practice of mass democracy as internal principle of the group-in-fusion and a point of reversibility with the immediate authoritarian or dictatorial element at work in the fellowship of terror. Looking into the issue of mass democracy itself notice that it is not possible to legitimate the principle after the sole appellative of democracy, since this romantic democracy immediately includes, in theory as well as in practice, its reversibility into dictatorship. You are dealing thus with a pair democracy/dictatorship that avoids an elementary designation, or eludes a philosophical apprehension, under the concept of democracy. And what does this entail? It entails that whoever assigns legitimacy to mass democracy, at least today, does so on the basis, or rather from the viewpoint of the non-state perspective of pure presentation. The appraisal, even under the appellation of democracy, of mass democracy as such, is inseparable from the subjectivity of generic Communism. The legitimization of this couple of immediacy � democracy/dictatorship � is only conceivable if the pair is thought, and valorized, from the generic point of the withering of the State, or from the perspective of a radical anti-state attitude. Actually, the opposite pole to State consistency, which precisely shows up in the immediacy of mass democracy, is a provisional representative to generic Communism. We are now brought back to our first major hypothesis: if "democracy" is conjoined to "mass," the goal of politics is actually generic Communism, whence "democracy" is not a category of philosophy. This conclusion is empirically and conceptually established by the fact that from the perspective of mass democracy it is impossible to differentiate democracy from dictatorship. It is what has obviously enabled Marxists to employ the expression "dictatorship of the proletariat." It should be our understanding that the subjective valorization of the word "dictatorship" thus rested on the presence of such reversibility between democracy and dictatorship as it historically appears in the figure of mass democracy, or revolutionary democracy, or romantic democracy. We are left with another hypothesis, a quite different one: "democracy" should be conjoined with the political regulation itself. "Democracy" would not be related to the figure of State or to the figure in political mass activity, but would rather relate organically to political regulation, provided that political regulation is not subservient to the State, to "the good State," when it is not systematized. "Democracy" would be organically tied to the universality of political regulation, to its capability of universality, and thus the word "democracy" and politics as such would be bound. Again, politics in the sense that it is something other than a State program. There would be an intrinsically democratic characterization of politics, insofar as its self-determination is posited as a space of emancipation removed from State consensual figures. There is some evidence of this in Rousseau�s Social Contract. In chapter 16, book III, Rousseau discusses the issue of the establishment of the State � apparently the opposite topic we are discussing here � the issue of the institution of the State. He comes up against a well-known difficulty, namely that the causative instrument of government cannot be a contract, cannot proceed from the dimension of a social contract in the sense that this contract acts as founder of the nation as such. The institution of the State concerns specific individuals, and this cannot be carried out by means of a law. For Rousseau a law necessarily implies a global association relating the people to the people and thereby cannot involve specific individuals. The institution of the State cannot be a law. And this suggests that it also cannot be the practice of sovereignty. For sovereignty is precisely the generic form of the social contract and it always connotes a relation of totality to totality � of the people to the people. Apparently, we face an impasse here. A decision is needed, a decision that should be at the same time special (since it establishes the government) and general (since it�s taken by the "totality" of the people and not by the government, which does not yet exist and will eventually be established). However, it is impossible, for Rousseau, that this decision result from the general will, since every decision of this kind should be manifested in the shape of a law or a deed of sovereignty. And this can only be the contract agreed upon by all the people and all the people, a contract that bears no particular character. You can also posit the question this way: the citizen votes the laws, the governmental magistrate takes the concrete measures. How are particular magistrates to be appointed when there aren�t yet any magistrates, but only citizens? Rousseau pulls himself out of this difficulty by stating that "the institution of government is accomplished by the sudden conversion of sovereignty into democracy so that without sensible change, and merely by virtue of a new relation of all to all, the citizens become magistrates, and pass from general to particular acts, from legislation to the execution of the law." For many this was a singular conjuring trick. What does this sudden conversion without any modification of the organic relationship between totality to totality mean? How does a mere displacement of this relation, which is the social contract as instituting the general will, allow for the proceeding to the possibility of initiating particular political acts? Basically this means � leaving aside the formal argumentation � that democracy is originally referred "to the particular character of the interests at stake in political regulation." Political regulation with its particular interests at stake � in the last resort it only has particular stakes � is confined to democracy. Rousseau�s case for the establishment of government is but one symbolic example. Generally speaking, the universality of political regulation � much as it evades the singular holding of the State � can be deployed as such only when particular interests are at stake and is constrained, when deployed under particular stakes, if only to invest the democratic form in order to remain political. Here a primary conjunction between democracy and politics effectively takes place. Democracy can then be defined as what authorizes an individual investment under the law of the universality of political will. "Democracy," in a way, names the political figures of the conjunction between particular situations and politics. In this case, and in this case only, "democracy" can be recaptured as a philosophical category. Hereafter democracy will designate what can be termed as the effectiveness in politics. Meaning politics when it conjoins with particular interests. Thus understood politics becomes free from its accountability to the State. In order to pursue this contention you would expound on how "democracy," in this conjunction to political regulation as such, refers in philosophy to the taking in of a specific kind of politics whose regulation is universal. Still this specific kind of politics may conjoin to the particular in a figure wherein situations transform so as to render impossible any other inequitable enunciation. The reasoning of this position is rather complex and I present a brief outline. Let�s say that "democracy" posits the fact that politics � with regard to a politics of emancipation � is sooner or later related to the special nature of people�s lives, not to the State, but to people as they come forth in the public space. Again, politics cannot be itself, which is being democratic, in its dealing with this particularity in people�s lives, unless it dismisses all inequitable sense in the very dealing. For, if politics allows for an inequitable acceptation in its dealing, then it introduces a nondemocratic norm � in the original sense I am addressing here � and the conjunction is cancelled. This means politics is no longer competent to deal with the particular from the perspective of the universal regulation. Politics will deal with the particular differently; it will deal with it from the perspective of the particular regulation. Thus, the case would be that every particular regulation redirects politics towards the State where it is subjected to the constraint of state jurisdiction. Consequently, the word "democracy," in its philosophical significance, presupposes a kind of politics insofar as the effectiveness of its emancipatory process works at the impossibility proper of all inequitable enunciation in concern with this situation. For the aim of this kind of politics to be real proceeds from the fact that these enunciations are, by means of such politics, not forbidden but impossible. Interdiction is always a rule of the State; impossibility is a regulation of the real. Also democracy as a philosophical category is what "brings forward equality." Or, what excludes from circulating as political nominations � or as political categories � any sort of predicate formally in contradiction with the egalitarian idea. In my view, this very fact drastically restricts the possibility of using in politics, under the philosophical sign of democracy, any type of "communal" designations. For the communal designation or the identity assignation to the subsets as such cannot be dealt with after the idea of the impossibility of an inequitable enunciation. Consequently, �democracy" is that which regulates politics in relation to communal predicates, to subset predicates. Democracy is that which anchors politics to the element of universality proper to its destination. It will also expose articulations of race as well as sexual or social or hierarchic articulations, or an enunciation such as: "there is a problem with immigrants," will undo the conjunction between politics and democracy. "Democracy" means that "immigrant," "French," "Arab," "Jew" are words that inevitably bring calamity to politics. For these words, and many others, necessarily refer politics to the State, and the lowest and most essential function of the State is the inequitable breaking of mankind. Ultimately, the task of the philosopher consists of exposing a certain politics to its evaluation. Neither in the sense of "the good State," nor in the sense of generic Communism, but intrinsically, that is to say for itself. Politics sequentially defined as that which attempts to create the impossibility of the inequitable enunciation, might, by the slant of the word "democracy," be exposed through philosophy to what I�ll call a certain eternity. Let�s say that by means of the word "democracy" thus conceived, by means of philosophy and philosophy alone, politics can be evaluated after the rule of the eternal return. Then philosophy takes hold of politics, not just as the particular or pragmatic avatar of human history, but as connected to a standard of evaluation, which upholds without ridicule, or without crime, that the return be foreseen. In the end a very old word, a word very much worn, philosophically nominates those politics that overcome this ordeal: it�s the word "justice." From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: For the true comfort of the bodhi tree.. My religion is the voice of those Who lost themselves and their names.. And became the Truth. --- Lehar..November 2002 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - I have learned so much from God That I can no longer call myself a Christian, a Hindu, a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Jew. The Truth has shared so much of Itself with me That I can no longer call myself a man, a woman, an angel.. Love has befriended me. It has turned to ash and freed me Of every concept and image my mind has ever known. - Hafiz, Persian Sufi __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From broadcaster at syhlleti.org Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: broadcaster at syhlleti.org (broadcaster at syhlleti.org) Date: Fri 6-Dec-2002 06:37:18 Subject: [Reader-list] Eid Mubarak from Sagnik Message-ID: <200212061437.gB6EbTIt043571@www82.123greetings.com> Dear reader-list, Sagnik has sent you a greeting card from 123Greetings.com, a FREE service committed to keep people in touch. To see your greeting card, choose from any of the following options which works best for you. -------- Method 1 -------- Just click on the following Internet address (if that doesn't work for you, copy & paste the address onto your browser's address box.) http://www.123greetings.com/view/CB21206063718975 -------- Method 2 -------- Copy & paste your card number in the view card box at http://www.123greetings.com Your card number is CB21206063718975 -------- Method 3 -------- Click on the link below to view your card ( Recommended for AOL Users ) http://www.123greetings.com/view/CB21206063718975 (For your convenience, the greeting card will be available for the next 30 days) If you need any help, write to us at support at 123greetings.com Regards, Postmaster, 123Greetings.com http://www.123greetings.com ********************************************************* Meet your mate with an online personal ad! Matchmaking.ca is a large online dating service. Put your free personal ad on to the system and then start browsing the 1000's of profiles now listed. http://www.123greetings.com/cgi-bin/sprinks.pl?101 ********************************************************* From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: and discussions around it. The venue (till the time notified or otherwise specified) will be Maths Department, IIT. Mr. wagesh shukla of maths department has kindly offered the space. Unfortunately, this time computer for demonstration could not be arranged for but from the next time all these details will be taken care of. The talks for this month meet, ie, on the 15th of December @ 2 pm are: >>Kishore Bhargava a brief on his experiences of Bang-linux meet 2002. >>Leo Fernandez A brief introduction and relevance of Free software in the present times >>Antham Innovator's Dilemma: Many successful firms have failed irrespective of their sound management when faced with disruptive technology; this talk will explain how open source software development is a disruptive technology and how present traditional software industry is bound to fail the competition of open source software development. All are welcome. cheers and thanks Tripta p.s. The Maths department is on the Mezzanine floor in the Main Building, IIT. Entry from the Security gate on sunday. Reach the main building and inquire from the guards ...in case of any doubts. _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at mail.sarai.net http://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: So to hell with the inspections Let's look tough for the elections Close your mind and take directions, Bomb Iraq. While the globe is slowly warming, bomb Iraq. Yay! the clouds of war are storming, bomb Iraq. If the ozone hole is growing Some things we prefer not knowing (Though our ignorance is showing), Bomb Iraq. So here's one for dear old daddy, bomb Iraq, From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Saying no would look like treason It's the Hussein hunting season Even if we have no reason, Bomb Iraq. http://www.karendecoster.com/2002_12_01_blog_archive.html#85602243 ------=_NextPart_000_031E_01C2B01E.8941E620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bomb Iraq: Sung to the = tune of=20 If You're Happy And You Know It, Clap Your Hands

If we = cannot=20 find Osama, bomb Iraq.
If the markets hurt your Mama, bomb = Iraq.
If the=20 terrorists are Saudi
And the bank takes back your Audi
And the TV = shows=20 are bawdy,
Bomb Iraq.

If the corporate scandals growin', bomb=20 Iraq.
And your ties to them are showin', bomb Iraq.
If the smoking = gun=20 ain't smokin'
We don't care, and we're not jokin'
That Saddam will = soon be=20 croakin',
Bomb Iraq.

Even if we have no allies, bomb = Iraq.
From the=20 sand dunes to the valleys, bomb Iraq.
So to hell with the=20 inspections
Let's look tough for the elections
Close your mind and = take=20 directions,
Bomb Iraq.

While the globe is slowly warming, bomb = Iraq.
Yay! the clouds of war are storming, bomb Iraq.
If the ozone = hole is=20 growing
Some things we prefer not knowing
(Though our ignorance is = showing),
Bomb Iraq.

So here's one for dear old daddy, bomb=20 Iraq,
From his favorite little laddy, bomb Iraq.
Saying no would = look like=20 treason
It's the Hussein hunting season
Even if we have no = reason,
Bomb=20 Iraq.
 
http://www.karendecoster.com/2002_12_01_blog_archive.html#85602243=
------=_NextPart_000_031E_01C2B01E.8941E620-- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: installation, CD-ROM and Internet the selection committees have selected the outstanding works. In the special programmes we feature a video retrospective of Erwin Wurm. Under the catchwork "Erdung" (Grounding) we have compiled works and organized lectures which deals with the "new feeling of attachment to one's home town". Which roles inhere geographical and emotional places in today's media society? Is there a corrective to the trends of mobilization, flexploitation, and globalization? And does this mean we are returning to traditional value systems, implying expressions such as "home" and "roots"? The programme "Gegenspieler" (counterplots) deals with "Machinimas" and subversive narration in computer games. You find all relevant information on programme and guests, admission and venues on our web site http://www.filmwinter.de Cheers, Wanda From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: The rise of the Media-As-Opposition Sagarika Ghose In the new year, a rough beast will slouch its way towards Parliament to take a seat in the backbenches. Who is this beast? The media, of course. The hottest new political trend noticed in the US and the UK is the death of the Opposition and the rise of the Media-As-Opposition. The Tories are at their lowest ratings ever and the Democrats are floundering in the face of Bush's patriotic revolution. Most noticeably in India where national security plus Hindutva plus patriotism plus regional coalitions are ranged against the descendants of Nehru, what can the Opposition do but quietly die? Sing a sad song for Nehru's aulad and turn instead to the TV channels and the newspapers because it is the media which now provides at least the semblance of any opposition to the BJP-led NDA. After the Gujarat results whom did the government abuse most gleefully? Not the Opposition, but the media. The media failed miserably to understand the situation, thundered the deputy prime minister. The media has lost, roared Jayalalithaa. Time for the media to apologise, gloated Narendra. Contrary to everything the media led us to believe, smiled the prime minister, we have won the election. Now hang on a minute, folks. Now that you've won a bravura election victory, isn't it the Opposition that you're supposed to be attacking? But no, after the Gujarat elections, it was the victory over the media rather than victory over the Congress, that seemed far more tantalising. In the 'Us' versus 'Them' mentality of this government, the media is seen to be on the side of the 'English-speaking''convent educated' 'Macaulayists' whom the sangh hates almost as much as it hates Muslims. Let us take other examples of the Media-As-Opposition. When a scandal on allotments of petrol pumps rocked the nation, where did we turn to see the government being taken to task? Did we turn to vigilant Opposition MPs? No, we turned instead to the pages of this newspaper. When we wished to see Narendra being dissected, did we turn to the parliamentary Opposition? No, we turned to television interviews. When corruption in defence deals came to light, did we once again turn to Opposition MPs? No, we turned to a website. A democratic Opposition in the true sense of the term, which should interrogate the government, hold it to account, expose its failures and question its motives, is gone. The golden years of the Indian Opposition when Jayaprakash Narayan galvanised citizens against the Emergency, is over. The Opposition space has been filled with 24-hour news channels, mega multi-edition newspapers and high profile magazines. An important reason for the rise of the Media-As-Opposition has to do with the decline of Parliament. 35.6 percent of MPs in the first Lok Sabha were lawyers. By the 11th Lok Sabha, 52 per cent of the House were farmers. Widening democracy brought in exciting new sons-of-the-soil who were strongly popular but badly behaved. The Cambridge-educated Indrajit Gupta once lamented long and loud after the Yadav brotherhood had stormed the well for the nth time. Younger MPs today privately admit that Parliament is either dreary or violent. In the recently concluded winter session, for example, there were only 28 MPs present during the debate on disinvestment. During the debate on drought, the government was hard pressed to find the numbers required to meet the quorum. Besides, when was the last time you heard a really interesting speech from an MP? There is another reason why the media has stepped in as Opposition. This is because government and Opposition are Siamese twins on corruption. On the petrol pumps allotments scam, for example, it was well-known that the patronage system began with the Congress with the fashionable Satish Sharma playing as dubious a role as the walrus-faced Ram Naik. The kick-back culture in defence too has been directly traced to the Congress, and the name of the secular messiah Mulayam Singh Yadav tends to drift into every conversation on defence scams. On the disinvestment issue, it was found that rival MPs on both sides of the secular divide were little more than spokespersons for corporate houses. And when it comes to 'state-sponsored' riots, the recent acquittal of the grinning Sajjan Kumar, accused in the 1984 Delhi riots, reveals that when political bosses are allegedly involved in communal violence, not much is resolved either way, whether the tough guy in question is draped in the tricolour or swathed in saffron. Government and Opposition are indistinguishable, so naturally it is up to the media to play the role of exposer, interlocutor and cop. Also, the Opposition at the moment, like the Democrats in the US, has been crowded out by the government's monopoly on nation, religion and security. Hindutva is proving far too sexy to be defeated by important but dull homilies on pluralism. And although it could be argued that regional factors might defeat the H-word in the states, yet when it comes to a dramatic enough ideology, the Opposition has still not been able to find an exciting enough alternative. SAHMAT-style secularism, while courageous and well-intentioned, is hardly politically empowered enough to battle the mob. The guitar-strumming lyrics of Bob Dylan are powerless against the Bajrang Dal. And the political thekedars of secularism have played into the hands of the VHP: notice the soft Hindutva of the Congress and the fancy flip-flops of the bearded wonders Chandrababu and Paswan. But which institution is just as sexy as Hindutva? The media. The stars of the media are almost as much in the public eye as the stars of Hindutva. The media is just as attention-seeking as Togadia's speeches. The media's massive reach, the sheer decibel level of the morning headline and new technology makes it the Adversary No 1 of the government of the day. A screaming headline can consign a political career to dust. A cleverly repeated visual can influence election results. No wonder the government is so keen to break the media-opposition, by offering journalists seats in the Rajya Sabha, Padma awards and appointments in the state. No wonder the government bashes the media with one hand but seduces it with the other. When the government takes on the media, the battle is delicious. When the government takes on the parliamentary Opposition... bah! Boring. The Opposition is dead. But the media is alive and kicking where it hurts. From ayish at vsnl.net Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: ayish at vsnl.net (ayish at vsnl.net) Date: Sun, Jan 5, 2003 at 09:59:28 IST (GMT+0530) Subject: [Reader-list] Deteriorating Memories by Ayisha Abraham Message-ID: <20030105042505.D2E707D7E@blr.vsnl.net.in> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: Url: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20030105/556c1b1a/attachment.pl From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: State, it is I. (the French Emperor�s slogan), L�Etat has been the bane of saints and seeker alike. Imagine�Sant Kabir waiting in the customs room before commencing on his weaving. Or Guru Nanak standing in a visa queue outside the Saudi embassy, �Gotta do the Hajj mates.. need a letter from King Fahd..� Sikhism wouldn�t have been founded today.. would have probably been a grant given by USAID to spread social equality and poverty alleviation amongst the farrming communities of the Punjab. Or, The Tathagata( Buddha)..A social justice project to alleviate violence and trauma from war torn orrisa, (Kalinga). Grant approved by the project director, Washington DC.. Or imagine again.. Rumi and the Sufis .. Prayer mats getting inspected by UN agencies before being distributed on discount amongst the impoverished peasantry of Bengal.. To improve farming and promote healthcare by the 5 times prayer and social equality. Whew.. The nation state would stand between man and God and ask him his visa dates for making an appt with the Almighty. -- Sanghamitra is in trouble.. Her visa has run out and she needs another letter from her father in Patliputra..A pigeon has been flown to Ashoka Priyadarshi and will be bringing it soon.. The Enlightened One/Tathagata had faced similar problems while travelling from Magadha to patliputra, since he was actually a Sakyan. Hence needed a visa for at least 13 states, which comprised the Indian landmass.. Each had a different taxation system and treated its lower castes and minorities differently.. Once he was even jailed an agent for inciting minorities and dalits to convert.. The chief minister of one state..a fiery actress turned state advisor.. forbade mass meditations and bhikkus were locked up under the PODI..Prevention of Different Identity act.. (The fellows were inciting people to wear maroon saffron robes and throw the National Dress to the chandals..) She also taxed thousands of farmers and peacock makers to go war against the neighboring country. a bunch of irritating yavanas, who were always crying foul at her Line of control. You know, The line with which you control you entire landmass and the people.. your state�s BORDER..The Holy boundary.. which separates the sacred from the profane..the lovable from the killable..The keepable from the dispensible..The likable from the detestable. Even temple doors can be opened after centuries to lesser mortals..but this is one boundary.. Which only the sacred few may cross.. young men are slaughtered trying to protect its sacred sanctorums and it is usually mined with explosives to prevent all but the sacred few.. For the best experience in this, ask the people of the West Bank..they are the On Line experts, crossing lines there, usually between cities, markets and even toilets can provoke armed raids.. and then these have to be avenged by suicide squads. So.. the Line of Control. is the sacred thread.. Baptism..the incision of faith..which defines the believers from the infidels.. The sacred kirpan. Before which all kirpans..bend. On our side of the planet they call it the Radcliffe Line.. how propah dear. After Cyril Radcliffe who cracked the sturdy hatta khatta Punjab. Into Two Nations. It has single handedly replaced all the marks of faith.. The True age of globalization. Nietsche was right, when he declared.. God is Dead.. Long live the nation state. -- We proudly studied the dawn of the modern world in school in an innocent looking chapter titled..� The rise of the nations in Europe�. A landmass filled with Catholics and Protestants and French speakers.. Splitting. and splitting and splitting into..pieces.. till each had to go out and make its own raids to fill its State coffers..to sanctify itself. Hence offerings were needed.. from blood to gold ..The more the offerings, The more the sanctity.. So we went out into inaccessible nations like South America.. and the new nation India �discovered� by our man Columbus..to compete with our rivals..and the dispensable Natives..(for they are not of our Nation) So, Demanding Lagaan, Land Revenue- for Her Majesty, became the Law. ( aptly titled like PODI, the Land Revenue Act). It flows out (4 bn pounds a year) and drains the entire Bengal.. see the begging starving peasants? Queued before the Her Majesty.. singing Ke Bhaiya..Chooti Lagaan..! Queing people. That�s the USP of the nation state. No one else before, had perfected the Art of the Queing so well. We even brought the entire Indian subcontinent to its knees..single handedly replacing their Hindu God and their Muslim minarets with the steeples of Westminster and the pound coin. Till today they don�t know what hit them! So, they stand in visa Queues outside Chanakya puri .. waiting for The United State/Kingdom. Our Lord who are in the United State, Thy Kingdom Come.The Pravaasi(exiled) angels sing.. -- The Buddha was thought to be an IS, Inter State agent.. and almost got locked up under PODI.. Only a letter from one of his previous ministers in the sakyaland.. who supplied �imported� lipsticks to the lady�s state got him out.. Then came so many other meddlers like the Buddha.. Now Guru Nanak.. was the most unbelievable one of them all! Travelling to God knows how many countries, without visas..! Just barged into Bangladesh and India and Pakistan and Iran and Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan as if they didn�t exist. His followers are singing the same tune again.. Awwal Allah noor upaya.. ek Rab ke sab bande.. All men are the creation of the Same One God..One race.. One Truth..Ek Omkar.. Problematic. And then, as if the Prophets Mohammed and Jesus weren�t troublesome enough.. The former actually made slaves from Other countries and Other Backward Castes his satsangis/prayer singers..And told them to travel to China freely.. without visas ..for Knowledge.! for The One God has made the whole earth. He also forced Kings to pray alongside their Subjects (now called citizens) in a bizarre horizontal(!) queue..without asking anyone to produce I cards..(the all Important �I�) His followers circulate this site in Arabia.. coming from 80 different countries, all without visas..till the Kingdom Of the Saudis Came. And I don�t even want to think of the Nazareth One.. And his community.. The bearded worshippers of One God again.. Wandering Jews they are called.. But God isn�t important enough. So. a Jew can become Muslim and a slave can become a slave owner. And a King can become a monk and a Siddhartha can become a Sakyamuni. But but an Indian can never become a Pakistani and a Russian can never become a Pole.. The Godhead sings..Hey partha. For one who worship me alone with mind detached from his identification with HimSelf., comes to ME truly.. Even if you have renounced the world and the sacred thread and all that�s in between- The state recognizes no religion..But Itself. -- How does it work? The nation state has the uncanny ability to reduce everything to an �Ism�..loving fellow beings to humanism, common sense to rationalism, madness to fundamentalism, separating God and King into secularism, not burning people at the stake to leftism...and questioning the State, into anarchism..till nothing remains but the Imperial �Ism�.. And like everything else, it has a Dual nature. Like citizenship. As Albert Einstein said, Masses is energy. Energy is masses. Just Multiply and Divide. Divide and Rule. That is the rule. Just like the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. An oxymoron. A contradiction.. for an Islamic �state� cannot be a Kingdom.. or even a �state� in the real sense of the word. Till the �gift of Enlightenment� bestowed upon us by Europe, the Islamic countries.. battling with mullahs and oil wells and the United States� ogling of them..did not exist. The ideal Islamic country would not exist at all..it would be a contradiction..for there can be no King but God. It could only be a trusteeship, a communally held post.. doing its duty of the people.. for the people ..by the people.. (They say Hazrat Ali, the trustee of the people sniffed out candles when people came to him for personal matters after nightfall..) An eminent scholar writes, that criticizing the state was a Duty under Muslim law..not a Right to be exercised once in 5 years by standing in a voters Queue.( that queue again). No wonder the Jews have always called al Andalus, Arab Spain their Golden Age. (Before their �Catholic Majesties�, Isabella and Ferdinand took over and threw them out and burnt all others..at the stake. Before sending their man Columbus to look for more.. The 300 year long Spanish Inquisition, the National purification by the Fire) The now authoritarian Friday sermon was a lesson in Dissent..critiquiing the mullahs, The King .. the State.. (Aurangzeb had a mighty hard time controlling The Masses.. who ridiculed his banning of music..carrying the coffin of music after Friday prayers thru the streets of Delhi..).. An eminent Delhi sociologist once said that the Jama Masjid is Not an Islamic structure, because according to the shariat.. it was built by a King! And an imam appointed by the King is no imam..and a rule, a veil.. a religion imposed by a Nation state/ Ruler king..is no Law. Will the Generals of the �Pure Land � please stand up..? and the jihadis..And the psuedo-democrats in saffron and khaki..? Our pal Ashoka Priyadarshi knew the same: �Ashoka priyadarshi does not attach importance to reverence as King .. but Only to the Dhamma..� -- Sanyasis renounce their families and their entire wordily identity.. but they can�t renounce their passport..and there is no passport of the planet Earth. So what could the Germans do when their elected esteemed leader went around slaughtering women and children in gas chambers? Like all true nationalists they had to comply.. and the Truth be hanged . Even Jesus couldn�t denounce Adolf Hitler� he would have been denounced as an Jewish IS (Israeli agent) traitor.. All religions fail before the almighty State.Buddhas crash and fall.. Mosques break..and Gurudwaras are sterile under tanks.. Operation Blue Star recognizes no Guru and no One Truth.. But the hand of the state.. the Allmighty national interest. All the religions and the Prophets, avatars are anarchists.. Revolutionaries.. and ultimately..anti national. For they�ve challenged the might.. and questioned the very existence of the nation state.. They recognize only nation on earth..The nation of its people. Those who oppress and those are oppressed.. And their teachings lead us.. From this life to the next.. to the path of killing the Ego..the root of all delusion..and .. to Nirvana..moksha..Jannat. That�s why Prophet Mohammed said in his last sermon "O mankind, the Arab is not superior to non-Arab, nor vice-versa; the white has no superiority over the black nor vice-versa; and the rich has no superiority over the poor. All of you are Adam's descendants and Adam was made of earth." And a charioteer of a kshatriya King, spoke the same Truth in Kurukshetra, O Partha, I pervade the entire universe by Myself.. giving up all sense objects unattached..devoid of the idea of ownership..Free from self identification/ ego. He attains peace.. But today the Truth is inverted..its truly the areligious secular age..they seek religion desperately in online mediation camps and violent rath yatras and jihad..but what are they really seeking? So Sanghamitra waits in the Queue.. while the officer stamps her passport and cries out �next.. please..� -- Optlnl: The saint of Sufis, Hazrat Nizamuddin,.. who lived thru the reigns of 7 kings.. without entertaining any of them., said: �A fakir�s home/hut has two doors.. when a king walks in through the front.. the fakir walks out the other�.. --- Jan 2002. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - I have learned so much from God That I can no longer call myself a Christian, a Hindu, a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Jew. The Truth has shared so much of Itself with me That I can no longer call myself a man, a woman, an angel.. Love has befriended me. It has turned to ash and freed me Of every concept and image my mind has ever known. - Hafiz, Persian Sufi Organised religion is the prop of a man who has not found his Self/ God within. - Shaheed Bhagat Singh __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: the basis of above given questionnaire we can achieve the economic, social, political, cultural position and habit of the people. Similarly, we can find out their adoptability in city, communication habit and their working condition and other related matters. Several stories will be written in special cases, if relevance. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From ayish at vsnl.net Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: ayish at vsnl.net (ayish at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, Jan 31, 2003 at 10:48:26 IST (GMT+0530) Subject: [Reader-list] Sarai Fellowship 2 Message-ID: <20030131051344.6D6E18913@blr.vsnl.net.in> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: Url: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20030131/456ccc7a/attachment.pl From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: into the camera (which pulls back to reveal him drinking a glass of milk), Stanley Kubrick's Clockork Orange announces itself as a completely new kind of viewing experience. Set in an unidentified future, the film overwhelms the senses with its almost comic depictions of violence set to an upbeat classical and pop music score; its magnificent, colorful, futuristic set designs; and its utter determination to shock, frighten and thoroughly entertain its audience. Kubrick based his chilling masterpiece on Anthony Burgess's culture-shaking novel about a young man, growing into adulthood, who has a bit of a problem with authority figures. When Alex (a career-defining performance by McDowell) and his droogs go out for a little bit of the old ultraviolence, he is caught and forced to undergo controversial treatment that will make it impossible for him to commit violent acts - but has severe side effects. Kubrick's film purposely confuses crime and punishment, cause and effect, hero and villain, irony and satire, filled with oxymoron and paradox, taking on science, politics, societal mores, education, sexual awakening, and parental responsibility all in a new language (both verbal and visual) that would change the cinema forever. No one who has seen it has ever been able to hear "Singin' in the Rain" or Ludwig van again in quite the same way. February 21, 2003 eXistenZ (1999), 97 minutes Directed by David Cronenberg Allegra Geller (Jennifer Jason Leigh) creates a new game called eXistenZ, one that connects with a 'bioport' installed in the spine. When something goes terribly wrong during the first public testing of the game, Allegra and public relations trainee Ted Pikul (Jude Law) go on the run. Out in the countryside they expect things to be safer, and Allegra takes the opportunity to check and see if all is well with her game. Naturally, she needs a friendly playmate to come along, so Ted, a virtual reality virgin, is called into service. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: mixed up with the real world and it's difficult to tell who's who and where eXistenZ begins and ends. It's a mystery packed with weirdness, intrigue and violence, and it's also an elaborate joke on the audience. Everything in eXistenZ seems real, but nothing actually is. The joke is delivered with a straight face, and viewers who are watching too intently might even miss it. eXistenZ isn't so much about the dangerous situations Allegra and Ted get into, although there are plenty of those. It's more about the dangers of ringing fantasy too close to reality, not to mention the dangers of igh-tech industrial rivalries. CITY ONE CONFERENCE City One, the South Asian conference on the urban experience was held on January 9-11, 2003 at the CSDS- Sarai premises. With six plenary sessions and eighteen parallel sessions, the conference was an intense and intellectually charged event. The participants ranged from well known social scientists, activists and practitioners, as well as an emerging generation of researchers on urban issues. Also attending was a large section of the local community of scholars, students and practitioners, as well as those residing outside of Delhi and India who had pre-registered for the conference. There were an average of 300 people every day at the conference venue. The Conference was supported by IDPAD (www.idpad.org) as part of the Megacities series. We have documented the entire conference for the public domain. Initially the entire audio archive of the conference will be made public. It will be put up on the conference web site (http://www.sarai.net/cityone/cityone.htm) by the end of February. We will also be producing a CD which contains the City One audio archive for people in India. The CD is free of cost. If you want a copy please write to diya at sarai.net with your complete mailing address. Watch the City One conference site for updates which will include reports on the conference in social science journals and a discussion list run by the student stipendaries who attended the conference. SARAI AT ASIAN SOCIAL FORUM, HYDERABAD The Asian Social Forum was held on January 2-7, 2003 at Hyderabad. CSDS played a major role in the event which can be described best as an alternative mahakumbh. On the 4th Shuddhabrata Sengupta, Sarai, spoke about the serious and savvy dangers posed by censorship in the age of information in a workshop panel entitled "People's Communication Rights Against Neo-Liberal Regimes", organised by Toshimaru Ogura, JCA-NET/Association for Progressive Communications. On the 5th, Sarai hosted a workshop on Alternatives to Media Empires: Information Politics & Media. While Shuddhabrata Sengupta introduced the idea of tactical media, Aditya Nigam(CSDS) talked about the freshly launched site of Aman Ekta Manch (http://www.amanjunction.org) which is designed to act as a forum for information and campaign around sectarianism. Ravikant (Sarai) spoke about challenging the language hegemony, emphasising on the efforts in Indic-computing, Arun Mehta (www.radiophony.com) spoke on radio as a tool of activism, Sunil Abraham (www.mahiti.org) showed how to make a website in a day, Sanjay Banagar and Shekhar Krishnan of Indymedia, Mumbai (http://mumbai.indymedia.org/) talked about the contents and experience of running the site. Sanjay Kak (independent filmmaker) shared his reflections on the role of creative filmmakers in the age of easy yet unequal access. Both the panels generated a lively discussion. It was decided that the participants would carry on the discussion on the Tactical Media Discussion List hosted by Sarai for which Shekhar has already made a directory and an introductory posting. http://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/tml-list For the statement adopted at the ASF and other details, please check: http://www.wsfindia.org/event_description.php FORTHCOMING EVENTS: March 1, 2003 Urban Study Group Meet Sarai/ CSDS The group is a loose collective of about 15-20 people, who share an interest in urban studies. It meets once a month (usually on the last Saturday) to discuss both primary texts and secondary writings on South Asian cities. The readings for each meeting are decided collectively. One or two persons volunteer to introduce the readings, this is followed by a general discussion. The group usually meets between 10.30 and 1.00. In two previous meetings the group has discussed issues of planning, labour and slum housing. The readings consisted of the Delhi Master Plan and extracts from such texts as the Birla Committee Report (1951) Slums of Old Delhi (1958), a 1936 memorandum on housing in Delhi; few essay-reports from Dinamaan etc. In the next meeting, proposed for Saturday March 1, the group will be introduced to Kalpana Sharma's Rediscovering Dharavi and Gita Dewan's Slumming in India and have two short presentations from Devesh Vijay and Rashmi. These presentations are based on research work already conducted by the scholars. At this point, the group aims to do no more than build a tradition of critical discussion on urban issues, so as to facilitate individual research. In the course of time, it may evolve into a more 'product oriented' workshop. Those of you who are interested in joining this group, may write to Sadan Jha (sadan at sarai.net) or Awadhendra Sharan (sharan at sarai.net) That's all for the moment. Do keep a lookout for more news on the Launch of Sarai Reader 03: Shaping Technologies & the Crisis/Media: The Uncertain States of Reportage, Sarai-Waag Workshop on March 3-5, 2003 Cheers, Ranita The Sarai Programme Centre for the Study of Developing Societies 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi 110 054 Tel: (+91) 11 23960040 (+91) 11 23951190 Fax: (+91) 11 23943450 www.sarai.net The Newsletter of the Sarai Programme, 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi 110 054, www.sarai.net Info: dak at sarai.net.To subscribe: send a blank email to newsletter-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. Directions to Sarai: We are ten minutes from Delhi University. Nearest bus stop: IP college or Exchange Stores See Calendar and Newsletter online: http://www.sarai.net/calendar/newsletter.htm _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at mail.sarai.net http://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/09/opinion/09FRIE.html Vote France Off the Island By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN Sometimes I wish that the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council could be chosen like the starting five for the N.B.A. All-Star team � with a vote by the fans. If so, I would certainly vote France off the Council and replace it with India. Then the perm-five would be Russia, China, India, Britain and the United States. That's more like it. Why replace France with India? Because India is the world's biggest democracy, the world's largest Hindu nation and the world's second-largest Muslim nation, and, quite frankly, India is just so much more serious than France these days. France is so caught up with its need to differentiate itself from America to feel important, it's become silly. India has grown out of that game. India may be ambivalent about war in Iraq, but it comes to its ambivalence honestly. Also, France can't see how the world has changed since the end of the cold war. India can. Throughout the cold war, France sought to differentiate itself by playing between the Soviet and American blocs. France could get away with this entertaining little game for two reasons: first, it knew that Uncle Sam, in the end, would always protect it from the Soviet bear. So France could tweak America's beak, do business with Iraq and enjoy America's military protection. And second, the cold war world was, we now realize, a much more stable place. Although it was divided between two nuclear superpowers, both were status quo powers in their own way. They represented different orders, but they both represented order. That is now gone. Today's world is also divided, but it is increasingly divided between the "World of Order" � anchored by America, the E.U., Russia, India, China and Japan, and joined by scores of smaller nations � and the "World of Disorder." The World of Disorder is dominated by rogue regimes like Iraq's and North Korea's and the various global terrorist networks that feed off the troubled string of states stretching from the Middle East to Indonesia. How the World of Order deals with the World of Disorder is the key question of the day. There is room for disagreement. There is no room for a lack of seriousness. And the whole French game on Iraq, spearheaded by its diplomacy-lite foreign minister, Dominique de Villepin, lacks seriousness. Most of France's energy is devoted to holding America back from acting alone, not holding Saddam Hussein's feet to the fire to comply with the U.N. The French position is utterly incoherent. The inspections have not worked yet, says Mr. de Villepin, because Saddam has not fully cooperated, and, therefore, we should triple the number of inspectors. But the inspections have failed not because of a shortage of inspectors. They have failed because of a shortage of compliance on Saddam's part, as the French know. The way you get that compliance out of a thug like Saddam is not by tripling the inspectors, but by tripling the threat that if he does not comply he will be faced with a U.N.-approved war. Mr. de Villepin also suggested that Saddam's government pass "legislation to prohibit the manufacture of weapons of mass destruction." (I am not making this up.) That proposal alone is a reminder of why, if America didn't exist and Europe had to rely on France, most Europeans today would be speaking either German or Russian. I also want to avoid a war � but not by letting Saddam off the hook, which would undermine the U.N., set back the winds of change in the Arab world and strengthen the World of Disorder. The only possible way to coerce Saddam into compliance � without a war � is for the whole world to line up shoulder-to-shoulder against his misbehavior, without any gaps. But France, as they say in kindergarten, does not play well with others. If you line up against Saddam you're just one of the gang. If you hold out against America, you're unique. "France, it seems, would rather be more important in a world of chaos than less important in a world of order," says the foreign policy expert Michael Mandelbaum, author of "The Ideas That Conquered the World." If France were serious about its own position, it would join the U.S. in setting a deadline for Iraq to comply, and backing it up with a second U.N. resolution authorizing force if Iraq does not. And France would send its prime minister to Iraq to tell that directly to Saddam. Oh, France's prime minister was on the road last week. He was out drumming up business for French companies in the world's biggest emerging computer society. He was in India. ________________________________________________________________________ Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, Yahoo! TV. visit http://in.tv.yahoo.com From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: The set-up in Iraq renders its civilians particularly vulnerable in war MANY aspects of the war hanging over Iraq are unpredictable but one is not: the unusual vulnerability of the civilian population. There are two reasons for this. First, about 60% of the population, or 16m people, are 100% dependent on the central government for their basic needs; they survive only because the government provides them with a food ration each month. Second, after two wars, decades of misgovernment and 12 years of exacting sanctions, there is no fat to rely on. In last year's Afghan war, as in the 1991 Gulf war, more people died from the indirect results of the conflict than from the fighting itself. And Iraqis now are far less able to get by. In 1991, most of them were in work, enjoyed fair health and had material assets; now, more than 50% are thought to be unemployed and most people have sold just about everything they once had (visitors gauge this from the markets, where the goods for sale are increasingly dilapidated). Though conditions have improved since the oil-for-food programme was set up in 1996, the report of an International Study Team*, academics and doctors with mainly Canadian backing, that visited Iraq at the end of last month found how vulnerable Iraqis still are. Most face grinding poverty, and children, in particular, are terrified at the prospect of war. Estimates by Unicef, the UN's childrens' agency, show close to a quarter of children under five suffering from malnutrition, some of it acute. A leaked report reveals that the UN is working on the calculation that, in war, some 5.4m Iraqis will need emergency help from outside, with small children needing it most. The World Health Organisation's contingency plans allow for the emergency treatment of 100,000 people injured by bombing, and for another 400,000 who may need medical aid if they cannot get food or clean water or shelter. The problems, already vast, would swell exponentially if the fighting is prolonged and people flee the cities. Food is the prime concern. The Iraqi rationing system works very efficiently (its database also allows the regime to keep tabs on everybody). In the northern Kurdish enclave, the food - flour, pulses, cooking oil, milk powder, all of it imported - is distributed by the World Food Programme (WFP). In the rest of the country, it is distributed monthly by local merchants. Since August, the government has been providing an extra month of rations in advance to allow stockpiling. But supplies are running out, and people have not even been getting their full ration. Moreover, there is much anecdotal evidence, particularly in poor areas, of people selling their extra rations for medicine and other basics. The collapse of central government could bring distribution to a stop. So could bombing, if it disrupts transport: for instance, Iraq is trisected by two rivers that flow north-south, so blown-up bridges would halt all east-west traffic. Another danger: if power stations are blown up, it could mean the collapse of water and wastewater systems, which, in turn, would have profound consequences for public health. Iraq's water and sewerage have never fully recovered from the crippling of the electricity system in 1991, plus neglect and the difficulty in getting spare parts and chlorine. Some of the water-treatment plants, and the big hospitals, have standby generators, but only 10% of the sewage-pumping stations have them. In any event, says Oxfam, a British charity, most of the generators do not work. Even as things are, the power system is crumbling, with only 60% of the country's needs being met. Further destruction could be calamitous. Both the UN and non-governmental organisations (NGOs) have started to face up to the crisis, but have difficulty planning for an emergency that has not yet happened and which nearly all hope can be averted. Co-ordination has to be low-key. The WFP, already overwhelmed by the famines in Africa, is pre-positioning food stocks in the region which it calculates would feed 900,000 people for three months (as with all UN agencies, its expatriate staff would be pulled out of Iraq once war started). Appeals for money also have to be low-key. So far, the WFP has had "informal" pledges for only $7m. Eclipsing this sort of money are America's multi-billion-dollar schemes for reconstructing a post-Saddam Iraq. Working with a civilian UN administrator, America plans to flood the country with food and medicine and to rebuild the infrastructure it may be about to destroy - much of it painstakingly rebuilt after the bombing in 1991. The NGOs, which have been gathering in Jordan as the expected gateway for aid, were this week given a pep talk by senior American officers. They were told that an American Humanitarian Operations Centre may be established in Jordan or Kuwait, and that "safe havens" would be established for NGOs in Iraq. The agencies were uncertain, calculating the problems of operating under America's military umbrella. Aid and tanks are uneasy partners, and they wonder whether they would be allowed to operate outside the safe havens, In the end, if America occupies Iraq, the agencies will have no choice, and the dollars will be welcomed. The Americans claim that they are planning intensively for the short term as well. They had better be right. "Our Common Responsibility: The Impact of a New War on Iraqi Children". International Study Team, January 30th 2003. (For the electronic version, see www.warchild.ca). __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: o o o The Hindu Friday, Apr 12, 2002 Multi-purpose identity cards soon: Advani By Our Special Correspondent NEW DELHI APRIL 11 . The Union Home Minister, L.K. Advani, said here today that the Centre would soon initiate steps to revive the proposal to issue multi-purpose national identity cards to all citizens, which was earlier derailed following reservations expressed by some States. Speaking to reporters after inaugurating a two-day workshop on `infant mortality' organised by the Registrar General of India (which comes under the Home Ministry) in collaboration with the Ministry of Health and Family Welfare, he said that he would soon hold consultations with political parties and States to see that the important proposal came through. Not much opposition was expected this time considering that there have been great developments in the IT sector. The earlier move had fallen through after some States expressed reservations on the ground that it was too gigantic a task to issue such a card to each and every citizen. Mr. Advani said that to begin with a legislation would be required to make the cards mandatory and, consequently, the immediate focus would be on enacting it. He, however, declined to set any timeframe for the project. Mr. Advani confirmed that the recent events in Gujarat would come up for discussions at the meeting of the BJP national executive beginning at Goa on Friday. "Naturally, the issue would come up," he said, replying to a query. He, however, declined to comment further stating that the statements made by him on the subject had been "interpreted in varying ways''. He also refused to comment on the statement by the LTTE chief, V. Prabakaran, during his press conference in Sri Lanka on Wednesday that India had a crucial role to play in solving the ethnic conflict in the Island nation. At the function, he rued that India continued to be a developing nation even though it had all the potentials to be a part of the comity of developed countries and specifically asked the various stakeholders in the health sector to take a pledge to significantly reduce the infant mortality rate, which had remained stagnant at about 70 per 1,000 for the past several years, after having recorded steep declines earlier. Mr. Adv ani asked the participants of the conference to focus on proper collection of data, as correct statistics was required to ensure right planning. o o o The Telegraph http://www.telegraphindia.com/1030108/asp/frontpage/story_1553948.asp States agree to identity cards - Drive to flush out illegal immigrants OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT New Delhi, Jan. 7: Swivelling the spotlight back on foreigners overstaying in India, the Centre today obtained concurrence from states on issuing citizens? identity cards and announced the launch of a three-month drive from April to flush out illegal immigrants. The multi-purpose identity cards will be issued on the basis of a proposed national citizens? register. A pilot project for the identity cards will be launched in specific areas in 13 states, including Bengal, Assam and Tripura, which have a sizeable number of immigrants from Bangladesh. If the finance ministry releases Rs 14 crore needed for the preliminary round covering 28.5 lakh people, the identity card project will get off the ground on April 1. The consensus on the identity cards emerged at a national conference of chief secretaries and directors-general of police, where deputy Prime Minister L.K. Advani launched an offensive against foreigners overstaying in India. ?There is no reason why our states should be soft on them. Immediate steps should be taken to identify them, locate them and throw them out,? Advani said. The deputy Prime Minister, who is also in charge of internal security as Union home minister, voiced concern ?over 11,500 Pakistanis and 1.5 crore Bangladeshis illegally staying in India? and directed state governments to launch a special drive to ?detect and deport them as they posed a serious threat to national security?. The Centre wants the special drive to begin in April and continue till June, but sources said states like Bengal, which had earlier expressed reservations against such operations, have not yet agreed to the proposal. A similar drive a few years ago in Maharashtra targeting illegal immigrants from Bangladesh had stirred a controversy. Several political parties and human rights organisations had then alleged that the flushout was being misused to harass the minority community. But home secretary N. Gopalaswami today sought to allay such apprehensions, saying nodal officers would be appointed to monitor the special drive. Estimates put the number of illegal Bangladeshi immigrants in India at 20 million, out of which over 10 million are in Assam and Bengal alone. The Centre has also promised to provide Rs 45 crore in three years to each district in nine states, including Jharkhand, affected by Left-wing extremism. Advani, who had promised funds to fight Naxalites when he visited Jharkhand recently, said the Centre had decided to adopt a multi-pronged strategy to deal with the menace. The conference also revived a proposal to set up a unit called the Federal Law Enforcement Agency (FLEA) but several states opposed it, fearing that it would encroach on their jurisdiction. The proposal was discussed last year also by the same conference but did not make any headway. Some states contended that the CBI was already doing the job and, hence, another agency will only duplicate the work. The home secretary declined to name the dissenting states. _______ b.) The Times Of India FEBRUARY 12, 2003 http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?artid=37276298 Govt to beat crime with technology SIDDHARTH SRIVASTAVA TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 12, 2003 06:31:46 PM ] NEW DELHI: The Indian government wants to use technology to crack down on organised crime. In an attempt to create a pan-Indian network, as in the USA, police stations across the country are going to be inter-connected. Police posts that do not have the basic computer infrastructure will be provided the same with the aim to keep a track on organised crime, criminals and possible terror attacks. The move comes as part of a massive modernisation exercise, estimated at over Rs 20,000 crore, co-ordinated by the union government to bolster security in the country. The inter-connect software called V-Cop is already in place and a pilot project involving 10,000 police stations have been identified in north India which will be networked. There are over 25,000 police stations in the country. The software is being indigenously developed by Indian enterprise software and database solution provider, CMC. The project was put on a fast track post the attack on the Akshardham temple in Gujarat and the arrest of Abu Salem, when it was found that the gangster had procured passports from Hyderabad and Mumbai, with the police unable to compare information available. Further, some of the success in staving off any further terror attacks in the USA has been attributed to a vast network of computers, that can throw up updated criminal records at the click of a mouse.� The government has roped in private sector players to provide the required technology inputs. Global database major Oracle Corporation has already installed a similar software in Andhra Pradesh. Oracle Corporation and Hewlett Packard have joined hands to set up a centre of excellence in e-governance in Gurgaon to tap the growing opportunities in the computerisation of the government sector. "The potential areas identified include national security, which is crucial for countries like India," says Derek Williams Oracle Corporation, executive vice-president. The Centre will be supported by CMC and PriceWaterhouse Coopers. The union home ministry that works under Deputy Prime Minister L K Advani has been at the forefront of modernisation of police and paramilitary forces across the country. Among the other steps being undertaken is re-training personnel through firearms-training simulators, with emphasis on tackling strikes on places of worship, schools and hospitals. The government is in the process of implementing the issuing of Multi-purpose National Identity Cards (MNIC) to all citizens. Huge funds have been released for the upgradation of the BSF. Another move to increase the pay scales of the National Security Guards or the black cats have been stymied by the finance ministry. Getting to the bottom of cellphone interactions, most commonly used by terrorists, is another aspect receiving a lot of attention. _____ c.) Wired News http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,56666,00.html India's Short Message: We C U By Ashutosh Sinha 02:00 AM Dec. 17, 2002 PT NEW DELHI, India -- The government here already tracks e-mail and wireless phone calls. Now it wants to tap the text messages that get zapped back and forth on the country's cellular network. The Ministry of Home Affairs, which frames policies regarding security issues, wants wireless service providers to install equipment that makes it possible to tap text messages sent via short message service, or SMS. The Ministry of Communications is pressuring companies to comply. Surveillance has increased with the upsurge in terrorist activities, many of which appear to be organized by the Islamic terror network. Terrorists attacked the Indian Parliament on Dec. 13, 2001, and stormed a temple in the western state of Gujarat two months ago, killing over 25 people. That may be the reason industry group representatives say providers will go along -- despite the huge costs associated with installing surveillance equipment. "The government has been seeking information from the industry regarding this (tapping of SMS)," said T.V. Ramachandran of the Cellular Operators Association of India. "We will cooperate with the government on the issue." According to the Ministry of Communications, India's 9 million cellular subscribers exchange over 25 million text messages a day. Providers charge customers between 3 and 6 cents for each text message they send, but monitoring messages does not generate any money. It costs wireless providers $100,000 to $200,000 to add surveillance capability to a 500,000-line network, according to Manji Matharu of Sotas, a telecom software company. Ramachandran added that all wireless companies' networks are not geared to allow SMS tapping. For these companies, the cost of installation of the equipment could be higher. This isn't the first time the government has pushed businesses to help it snoop on its citizens. Internet service providers here are required to monitor e-mail as part of their licensing conditions. Also, cellular companies have installed equipment that allows simultaneous tapping of up to 180 lines from all service providers in each of the country's 21 telecom circles. That helps the Central Bureau of Investigation, Central Economic Intelligence Bureau, Directorate of Revenue Intelligence, Intelligence Bureau, Enforcement Directorate and other government agencies track potentially ominous electronic communications. And according to a government source, India's Intelligence Bureau has also requested that all faxes be monitored. That request has not yet been met. "All communication in any form on the telephone should be monitored," said an official at the Ministry of Communications who spoke on condition of anonymity. When mobile multimedia services launch in India, they will also be tracked, he said. Under the SMS monitoring policy, wireless service providers will be asked to maintain records of all the messages exchanged by subscribers. It is not clear yet how long the data will be archived. Specialized software would scan a range of variables to profile SMS users. For example, it might pick up on a subscriber who regularly sends text messages to people in countries suspected of abetting terrorists. The software alerts the service provider, which informs the security agencies. The software might also single out someone who sends one message in a week or two to such countries, but the intelligence agencies will be less interested in that person. Guidelines from India's Supreme Court make it mandatory for security agencies to seek clearance from the Home Ministry before tapping any individual's communication. "There are instances of violation," said Pavan Duggal, a lawyer who specializes in cyberlaw. "It will require the courts to decide the balance between the security of the state and the privacy of citizens." 0 0 0 http://vigilant.tv/article/2578 Update on Indian SMS wiretapping 09:38 AM +1000, Dec 18 2002 An update on Indian government efforts to expand their already broad wiretapping capabilities to include SMS cellphone text messaging. Indian authorities have been accused several times of shutting down the SMS network in an effort to block dissident communications. The current push is for wireless phone providers to record and retain all SMS messages for an undisclosed period of time. The Ministry of Home Affairs, which frames policies regarding security issues, wants wireless service providers to install equipment that makes it possible to tap text messages sent via short message service, or SMS. The Ministry of Communications is pressuring companies to comply. [...] "The government has been seeking information from the industry regarding this (tapping of SMS)," said T.V. Ramachandran of the Cellular Operators Association of India. "We will cooperate with the government on the issue." [...] This isn't the first time the government has pushed businesses to help it snoop on its citizens. Internet service providers here are required to monitor e-mail as part of their licensing conditions. Also, cellular companies have installed equipment that allows simultaneous tapping of up to 180 lines from all service providers in each of the country's 21 telecom circles. [...] "All communication in any form on the telephone should be monitored," said an official at the Ministry of Communications who spoke on condition of anonymity. When mobile multimedia services launch in India, they will also be tracked, he said. [...] Under the SMS monitoring policy, wireless service providers will be asked to maintain records of all the messages exchanged by subscribers. It is not clear yet how long the data will be archived. Specialized software would scan a range of variables to profile SMS users. For example, it might pick up on a subscriber who regularly sends text messages to people in countries suspected of abetting terrorists. The software alerts the service provider, which informs the security agencies. The software might also single out someone who sends one message in a week or two to such countries, but the intelligence agencies will be less interested in that person. - Wired, India's Short Message: We C U. _____ d.) http://www.securityvoice.co.uk/art.php?art=250&cat=calendar Security Voice 12th February 2003 Diary date: 12 Feb 2003 Security International 2003 - India Services International in association with Association of Security Professional (ASP) is organising the Security International 2003 Exhibition and Conference to be held at Hotel Leela, Mumbai, India during 12-14 February 2003. Security International 2003 presents an ideal platform for decision makers from various vertical industries to view advanced and sophisticated products of Security & safety equipment along with the products ranging from traditional solutions such as safes, locks, manned security to hi-tech integrated systems and access control devices. Exhibition Includes: * Security International 2003 International Exhibition on Security Technology. * iSecurity International 2003 International Exhibition on Information Technology Security. * Security Solutions India 2003 International Conference of Security Solutions, trends & Developments. Exhibitor's Profile: Exhibition will provide a glimpse of the latest development in the technology & innovation in the field of Security equipment & appliances. Exhibitors from the following industries from all over the world will come as participants:- Access Control, Alarm Systems & services, Arms & weapons, Biometrics, CCTV, Central Station Monitoring, Data protection, Detection, Door Hardware, Electrical Components, Electrician Professional tools, Electronic Clocks, Electronic article surveillance, Energy management, Financial Services, Fibre Optics, General Electronic Security, Hardware protection, Home Security Systems, Identification Systems, Information Security, Industrial Security, Intrusion detection, Lighting Control, Locking Mechanisms, Outdoor perimeter protection, Personal Security, Portable equipment, Public & private security, Publications, Residential, commercial,corporate & institutional network security systems & services, Security Forces management, Transportation, Uniforms, VIP protection, Wire & cable optics and Wireless Data Services. The Exhibition will be a meeting point for senior public officials responsible for security & safety, corporate security managers, importers, agents & distributors, contractors & installers, architects & architectural engineers, technical/System Integrators, owners and senior & General Management. India's recently liberalized import export policy, simplified procedure, and new openings for foreign investments offers excellent potential for exporting & importing sophisticated security and safety equipment, appliances, transfer of know-how and setting up of joint ventures in the field of security & safety. Links E-mail: sbhatiani at servintonline.com URL: http://www.servintonline.com Tom Reeve, Sep 26, 15:57 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: international policy in relation to what regimes are supported and which opposed does not justify military action which results in suffering & death. Granted. And I think that the case against war rests on something like this point. There are less immoral and counterproductive ways to pursue justifiable political ends. But it sounds as though you intended something beyond this point? Incidentally, what do you think should have happened in Afghanistan? Jamie > - Global Imperialism: again the case here is at best eliptical. It looks > like another case of slurring motives, rather than dealing with the rights > and wrongs of the case. And again it is hard EVEN to establish the slur on > motives. Is it really thought that the US is trying to take over countries? > If something less than full-blown empire, then what? Establish & support > friendly regimes in countries throughout the world? Seems like a reasonable > thing to do..... doesn't every nation try to do that? .... and if they > don't, shouldn't they start?!! Again, we need better than a hint of a slur. > Yes, but not by first promising to eradicate the population with shock and awe (why not THE BOMB, he, he, we can't rule it out) and then govern via strings. See the current Afghan puppet and consider his previous employment record. Remember "free" trade agreements? And did you read anything at all about the last *US* election? Ah, a model of democracy. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: prostitutes are living in poor surroundings. Were diseases common amongst them? FS: The prostitutes did live in areas where there was a very low standard of hygiene. They knew nothing about AIDS until about one year ago, when an awareness programme imparted some knowledge to them. Sexually transmitted diseases are common and medical treatment is administered by the dais. Did you make any friends while visiting the Mohalla? FS: Yes, I certainly did. I still have friends amongst them and I do visit them occasionally. Do your friends from the Mohalla come to visit you? FS: Well, once when I was away from home my mother called me to say that one of the girls from the Mohalla had come to visit me at my home in Islamabad along with her husband. That really upset my mother, who insisted that although she was supportive of my research work she did not feel comfortable with my subjects coming to our home. I respected her wishes and made sure it did not happen again. What message did you want to convey based on the findings of your book? FS: Well, I wanted to tell my readers, especially the younger male generation, that they must think for themselves and not in the way society has moulded our minds to think. I wanted people to see the truth as it is; that it is up to a woman to perceive her morality for herself. It is not for a man to tell her whether she is "good" or "bad" and then limit her life accordingly. It is time men begin to rethink their roles and adjust to the needs of women too. As we can see from Fouzia's research, the status of women is somewhat of a complex phenomenon in the subcontinent. Not for the woman who holds it, but for the average male inhabitant who has to define it for her. Whilst men have the luxury of doing as they please, it is the women that are perceived as likely to cause shame to the men they are "owned" by, regardless of any dishonourable acts that men chose to commit themselves. It is therefore deemed necessary by society, that men keep their women well inside limits as defined by a male dominated society. Having said this, we must acknowledge that the struggle for recognition for women of our social order continues. Women are starting to put up a greater resistance to the confinement that a patriarchal culture imposes on them, and much to the uneasiness of their male counterparts, are beginning to speak out against the many illogical notions that have dictated their roles as the "less seen, less heard" part of society. Fouzia ends her narrative with the conclusion that whether women are considered "good" or "bad", they are in fact "two sides of the same coin". She concludes that in our male dominated culture, the Shahi Mohalla and society do have something in common - one woman is sold in the name of sin, the other is sold in the name of honour. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Madan organized the first projection of talkie film in India, at his Elphinstone Palace in Calcutta. The impact in India was immense, as it revealed the possibilities offered by sound, opened new horizons for this emerging form of cinema. In 1931, when the first Indian talkie was released, silent cinema was at the peak of its popularity in the country. Soon afterwards, in fact, the major silent films would be remade with music and dialogue. Though the market was lingua specific, here, in Bengal, a demand of Bengali talkies was also increased. New Theatres Ltd appeared with their constant production of films. New Theatres Ltd. followed the Hollywood model and from its emergence in 1931, we consider that the studio era was started in Bengal. This age of studio system was important not only for an increased volume of productions, but Bengali cinema got a stable platform, both culturally and economically in this era and also a national reputation from its localized identity. In spite of having a complete setup of production-distribution and exhibition units (an ideal position to control the entire market), Aurora did not follow the Hollywood model of studio system. In silent era, their primary business was exhibition. In studio era, Aurora gave emphasis on distribution network and ultimately made it their main business. Production business was secondary . Rather, Aurora was more interested in its third business i.e. to rent its studio space and equipment for others' production. So, instead of centralization ( the characteristic of Hollywood Studio System), Aurora was more interested to diversify its business. In this new strategy, each unit was a separate earning unit and disturbance in one unit would not hamper the others.This modified strategy ( a unique characteristic of Bengali cinema) ultimately helped Aurora to survive. Exhibition Aurora's primary business was exhibition until 'Aurora Cinema Co.' was devided and a separate distribution company was started in 1929. But in studio era Aurora was not so much interested in exhibition business. Though the market was growing rapidly and number of cinema halls were also increasing. Aurora also started cinema halls somewhere independently and somewhere in partnership. But Aurora mainly tried to tie up with cinema halls, as their business partner, for exhibition of those films that were either produced or distributed by Aurora. Anjan Bose (present proprietor of Aurora) claims, there were almost seventy such cinema halls in Bengal and exhibition was effortless and a good business for Aurora till 1947. But after independence most of those cinema halls remained under the territory of erstwhile East Pakisthan. Only two halls remained in West Bengal, one in Kharagpur and the other in Midnapur. Both were named as 'Aurora Talkies' which still exist. But from 1947 onwards, Aurora's exhibition business collapsed. Distribution As Roy Armes said ('Third World Film Making and the West, p-37): "The film industry has a three part structure - production, distribution, and exhibition - but the balance of power between the three is unequal. The producer is forced to cede rights in his film to the distributor, since he needs a distribution guarantee to raise the risk capital. The distributor does not, however, need to yield these rights in turn to the exhibitor, since the later needs only a regular flow of assorted films on short-term hire. Power in the film industry therefore resides in the distribution company which, as a purely financial organization, can be located anywhere in the world : it is an intermediary stage not bound geographically to either the studios where the films are produced or the cinemas where they are exhibited." Aurora understood this simple truth. In 1929, Aurora started a separate distribution wing to capture a bigger market. In studio era, Aurora's main business was distribution of films. Aurora started distribution of films of Imperial Film Co. of Bombay from 1930 (correspondences with Imperial are available at the files of 'Aurora Film Corporation' from 26th Dec. 1930 to 1st Dec. 1933). In a letter dated 6.1. 1931, Imperial confirmed Aurora to send two films every month. Those films were all silent. But from 1929, sound films were coming to India from abroad. Aurora itself was the exclusive distributor of some films of Columbia Talkies. Aurora also distributed lots of one reeler and two reeler silent named 'Pathe Gazette' and talkie film named 'Empire news bulletin' of Globe Theatre, France from 1932 to 1935. In future Aurora produced Aurora Screen News in that format. In 1931, when the first Indian talkie was released, a tremendous impact was found in the audience. In a letter dated 31.3.1931 to Imperial Film Co., Aurora wanted to distribute 'Alam Aarh' and also wrote: " We have prevailed upon the proprietor of the Picture House, Dacca to convert his house into talkie house. At any rate he wants to run a few pictures for trial started from 'Alam Arah'�..We also understand that there are a few Bengali songs attached to 'Alam Arah' and we wish to keep them intact with the main picture. If this picture is going successful in Dacca, we are sure, we will be in a position to introduce the other muffassal people either to wire up with houses or we ourselves will arrange for portable talkie set." But Aurora could not get the distribution of 'Alam Arah' and when in Bengal, New Theatres started production of Bengali talkies, Aurora immediately started business with them. Aurora already distributed two silent films of International Film Craft. [ New Theatres Ltd.(formally International Film Craft) gave distribution of 'Chasar Meye' (in a letter dated 22.08.1931) and 'Chor Kanta' (in a letter dated 20.04.1932) to Calcutta Picture Corp. whose address were same to Aurora Film Corp. (125, Dharmatala St.). Perhaps Aurora had started a temporary sister concern to distribute those films. Later the existence of Calcutta Picture Corp. can not be traced any more.]. In an agreement dated 26.03.1932, The Gaumont Co. Ltd., London, offered Aurora to distribute the film 'Himalaya' in India, Burma and Cylone for five years. Mahindrakar Filn Service, Girgaon, appointed Aurora Film Corp. (agreement dated 18th July, 1932), as their distributing agent for a period of two years for distributing the pictures produced by 'The Maharastra Film Co.' and 'Kohinoor United Artists' in the provinces of Bengal, Bihar, Assam, Orissa and Burma. In 1933 Aurora opened a branch office at Madras. From 1933 (letter dated 10.03.1933), Aurora started distribution of Bengali talkies of New Theatres in a following commission :- Bengal, Bihar, Assam, Orissa, Assam and Burma Calcutta a) Chitra & New Cinema �0% b) Purna Theatre, Howrah Cinema or any other N.T.'s cinema in the above circuit�7.5% c) Other cinemas in Calcutta �.10% Other stations All cinemas in this circuit �15%. Madras Presidency, Mysore state. Cylone state, South India On all booking in this circuit �.20% By that time Aurora also opened a branch office at Rangoon to explore the Far- East market. In a letter dated 24.12. 1934, Aurora approached to New Theatres to distribute their film outside India in Indo-China, Siam, Fizi, Malay and Dutch Indies. The earlier dealings with New Theatres Ltd. ultimately came into an agreement on 5th July, 1937, when New Theatres appointed Aurora as their sole and absolute distributing agent. "The principals hereby appoint the agent as their sole and absolute distributing agent in the territory conventionally known as Bengal and comprised of Bengal, Bihar, Orissa, assam and Burma for a period of six years commencing from 1st September,1937, for the purpose of exploring and distributing all sound and talking films in Bengali language only to be produced and released by the principals and known as New Theatres Productions and releases. The number of such pictures to be delivered to the agents for distribution and exploitation as aforesaid shall not in any event be less than eighteen pictures in course of the period of six years. In respect of this agreement the agent hereby agree and undertake to pay in advance to the principals in Calcutta the sum of Rs. 75000/-." This agreement was renewed for another six years on 2nd May,1945, with some additions and modifications (Aurora agreed to pay another Rs. 25000/- that time) and ultimately Aurora remained the sole distributing agent of New Theatres' films. Though Aurora also distributed a few films of other production companies, yet Aurora itself was more interested to do business with New Theatres Ltd. because, those films had a huge market that helped Aurora to flourish its own business. Production In studio era, Aurora did not involve itself in large scale of production. Due to an uncertain volatile market of that transitional period of cinema from silent to talkie, Aurora could not take risk. Aurora produced silent films till 1934 (in 1934, only one and the last Bengali silent film of silent era, named 'Niyoti', was made. Aurora was the producer). Then Aurora was trying to go for joint production. In a letter dated 19.10.1935, Aurora proposed M/s New Empire, Assansole to produce a talkie jointly (estimated cost was Rs. 40,000/-, Rs. 20,000/- each). Aurora also proposed for joint production to Super Tamil Talkies of Madras (letter dated 07.09.1936). Aurora made an agreement (dated 17.05. 1938) with Atyam N Murty for joint production of a Telegu film, 'Pranoy Leela'. Infact, Aurora produced some films of south Indian language in that way. Aurora produced its first Bengali talkie, 'Haate Khari', in 1939. But still, Aurora was irregular in feature film production and upto 1950, Aurora produced only six talkies. Though from mid 1940s, feature film production was hampered due to second world war. Rather, in studio era, Aurora liked to produce lots of one reeler two reeler news capsules named 'Aurora Screen News'. A tradition that started from 'Aurora Tukitaki'of early Bengali cinema and continued through the 'Topicals', non fiction related to various subjects like industry, irrigation, sports, health etc. from 1920s to mid 1930s, gave birth the idea of documentary film practice to Aurora. From 1938, Aurora started the production of news magazines to capture some contemporary events. Those were either projects covering the activities of Govt. of Bengal (Bengal Homage to late Majesty George V, Arrival of H.E. Sir Jhon Herbert, Governor of Bengal, etc.), or some projects related to cultural events of Bengal (Durgapujo at Purnia, Gangasagar Mela, etc), or some projects covering events of nationalistic importance (AICC meeting at Wellington Square, Hindu Mahashabha, Ramgarh Congress and Anti Compromise Conference, etc.), health, sports, travelogue and so on. But once again, in an accident all film materials were destroyed by fire in 1944. But Aurora did not stop. Only when, after independence, Film Division started their production of non fictions from 1948, Aurora lowered their production rate. Yet, Aurora continued up to 'Aurora Screen News No. 51' till 1965. Some of those news reels were purchased or rented by Govt. of Bengal but all those productions were Aurora's independent effort and few memorable events (Funeral procession of Rabindra Nath Tagore, Mahatma Gandhi, Subhash Bose's speech, etc) Aurora marketed as documentary later. That effort helped Aurora to get commissioned projects from other NGO's like 'Red Cross Society' and so on. Aurora also worked for corporate sectors like Tea Boards, Burmah Shell etc. In a letter dated 23.12.1940, Aurora quoted their rate of production to Bourne-Sheperd at about Rs. 4/- per feet of 1000 feet for talkie and Rs. 2 and 8 anas per feet of 1000 feet for silent. Thus, in studio era, Aurora was trying to monopolize the other sectors of film business apart from the competition of mainstream. Hire Services This sector of business, by hiring out studio premises, equipment, laboratory facilities etc., was a constant source of income of Aurora even till today. Aurora's film processing laboratory was the busiest one for 'black & white' productions. Aurora also did the monopoly business of reduction of film-prints from 35mm to 16mm in eastern India. In an agreement (dated 06.11.1940) with Mr. Rohini Kumar Baruah, Dibrugarh, Aurora fixed its rates to serve for the production of a feature film at Rs. 14,000/- in a following break up:- Film cost 60,000 ft. (20,000 ft each for picture Negative, picture positive and sound films)..6000-00-0 Talkie shooting 20 days @ Rs. 250/-.........5000-00-0 Silent shooting 5 days @ Rs. 50/-............250-00-0 Idle days 15 @ Rs. 40/-......................600-00-0 Laboratory for processing @ Rs. 20/-........1200-00-0 Still material and sandries..................950-00-0 __________ Total (in Taka-Ana-Pai format)...............14000-00-0 In a letter dated 10.06.1943 to S.D.Production Aurora quoted the rate of studio hire charges as Rs. 300/- for full shift (eight hours) and Rs. 150/- for half shift (four hours). It was a good business for Aurora to use its studio space, equipment, and technicians for others' production as it was found in following agreements :- With Khagendralal Chatterjee for the film 'Abhayer Biye' (dated 16.10.1941) With Muralidhar Chatterjee for the film 'Chadmabeshi' (dated 17.01.1943) With Bharati Chitrapith for the film 'Naarijanma' (dated 05.05.1944) With Chaya Chitramandir for the film 'Dusta Grahan' (dated 13.09.1944) With Lilamoyee Picture for the film 'Bisher Dhoan' (dated 13.09.1948)��.etc. End of studio era and the survival of Aurora As Someswar Bhowmik said (Indian Cinema Colonial Contours.p-38) : "By the end of 1940s, the studio system in India was for all practical purpose demolished. The rot had started in the early 1940s though��Yet the disintegration started only under the burden of severe inflation unleashed by the second world war (1939-1945). Immediately, the cost of production shot up, setting in motion a process of external pecuniary diseconomy for the studios. Gradually, as an offshoot of the wartime dislocation the Government introduced rationing of raw film stock and a yearly production quota for each studio/producer. As a result, the studios were compelled to keep both the studio floor and the staff idles for a considerable length of time every year. It inevitably added to the already high overhead costs which most of the studios found prohibitive." But Aurora did not has to face that problem as it happened for New Theatres and other studios of Bengal like Bharatlakshmi Sudio, Radha Films, Kali Films and so on . Because, an alternative sector of business was always active for financial support and Aurora, who changed its business objectives at the beginning of studio era to avoid the competition with New Theatres, in 1st July,1954, they took up the control and management of New Theatres Ltd. for six months when New Theatres was in a financial crisis. Thus, the strategy of diversification established Aurora so much in the film industry. ------------------------------- Note: The available film lists (both distributed & produced by Aurora ; fictions, nonfictions, corporates) are huge and it needs a well display which, I think, is not possible in net-posting. I would like to give the printed copies of those lists to Sarai at the time of my final submission. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Eisenhower administration abided him as a counter to Washington's Arab nemesis of the era, Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt � much as Ronald Reagan and George H W Bush would aid Saddam Hussein in the 1980's against the common foe of Iran. By 1961, the Kassem regime had grown more assertive. Seeking new arms rivaling Israel's arsenal, threatening Western oil interests, resuming his country's old quarrel with Kuwait, talking openly of challenging the dominance of America in the Middle East � all steps Saddam Hussein was to repeat in some form � Kassem was regarded by Washington as a dangerous leader who must be removed. In 1963 Britain and Israel backed American intervention in Iraq, while other US allies � chiefly France and Germany � resisted. But without significant opposition within the government, Kennedy, like President Bush today, pressed on. In Cairo, Damascus, Tehran and Baghdad, American agents marshaled opponents of the Iraqi regime. Washington set up a base of operations in Kuwait, intercepting Iraqi communications and radioing orders to rebels. The US armed Kurdish insurgents. The CIA's "Health Alteration Committee," as it was tactfully called, sent Kassem a monogrammed, poisoned handkerchief, though the potentially lethal gift either failed to work or never reached its victim. Then, on February 8, 1963, the conspirators staged a coup in Baghdad. For a time the government held out, but eventually Kassem gave up, and after a swift trial was shot; his body was later shown on Baghdad television. Washington immediately befriended the successor regime. "Almost certainly a gain for our side," Robert Komer, a National Security Council aide, wrote to Kennedy the day of the takeover. As its instrument the CIA had chosen the authoritarian and anti-Communist Baath Party, in 1963 still a relatively small political faction influential in the Iraqi Army. According to the former Baathist leader Hani Fkaiki, among party members colluding with the CIA in 1962 and 1963 was Saddam Hussein, then a 25-year-old who had fled to Cairo after taking part in a failed assassination of Kassem in 1958. According to Western scholars, as well as Iraqi refugees and a British human rights organization, the 1963 coup was accompanied by a bloodbath. Using lists of suspected Communists and other leftists provided by the CIA, the Baathists systematically murdered untold numbers of Iraq's educated elite � killings in which Saddam Hussein himself is said to have participated. No one knows the exact toll, but accounts agree that the victims included hundreds of doctors, teachers, technicians, lawyers and other professionals as well as military and political figures. The US also sent arms to the new regime, weapons later used against the same Kurdish insurgents the US had backed against Kassem and then abandoned. Soon, Western corporations like Mobil, Bechtel and British Petroleum were doing business with Baghdad � for American firms, their first major involvement in Iraq. But it wasn't long before there was infighting among Iraq's new rulers. In 1968, after yet another coup, the Baathist general Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr seized control, bringing to the threshold of power his kinsman, Saddam Hussein. Again, this coup, amid more factional violence, came with CIA backing. Serving on the staff of the National Security Council under Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon in the late 1960's, I often heard CIA officers � including Archibald Roosevelt, grandson of Theodore Roosevelt and a ranking CIA official for the Near East and Africa at the time � speak openly about their close relations with the Iraqi Baathists. This history is known to many in the Middle East and Europe, though few Americans are acquainted with it, much less understand it. Yet these interventions help explain why US policy is viewed with some cynicism abroad. George W Bush is not the first American president to seek regime change in Iraq. Mr. Bush and his advisers are following a familiar pattern. The Kassem episode raises questions about the war at hand. In the last half century, regime change in Iraq has been accompanied by bloody reprisals. How fierce, then, may be the resistance of hundreds of officers, scientists and others identified with Saddam Hussein's long rule? Why should they believe America and its latest Iraqi clients will act more wisely, or less vengefully, now than in the past? If a new war in Iraq seems fraught with danger and uncertainty, just wait for the peace. ____________________________________________ Roger Morris, author of "Richard Milhous Nixon: The Rise of an American Politician," is completing a book about US covert policy in Central and South Asia. -- Shuddhabrata Sengupta SARAI Centre for the Study of Developing Societies 29 Rajpur Road Delhi 110054 Phone 23960040 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: When Sameen takes this road, her music shop falls on her left: there are two main points of entry to the bhaison wali gali. A nukkad halfway through the gali has a S.T.D. booth at its corner. A lane branches to the left of the Bhaisoon wali gali. It connects it to Rasheed Hotel wali gali from Muradi Road�s side.. Gali no.6. Named after the oldest hotel at its nukkad connecting it to Zakir Nagar main road. 23.03.03. Sunday. 7p.m. Kahkashan�s mother. Came to see her from Batla House by a rickshaw. Told me: Muradi Road is named after contractor Murad. Batla House after an English General.( Was not very sure of this.) Zakir Nagar after Dr. Zakir Hussain. Nafees lane (perhaps) after Nafees Saheb who owned a lot of land around the area. Initially, Jogabai was called Jodhabai or Yogabai. Named after a six hundred year old aheer queen. Believed to be the first settler of the area by the local community of Gujjars. --------------------------------- With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs --0-713821909-1048570315=:47875 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Bhaisoon wali Gali. (The lane of Buffaloes)17.02.03

Gali number 7. Zakir Nagar

Yo! Net. Inaugurated on 14.02.03 with two banners, two heavy yellow lights, and sounds (feet, voices and laughter) of young boys and men in the gali.

Only two houses away from mine ( 119/ 7). Number 576/ 7.

The Net with a difference @ 10/ hr..

Kahkashan also lives in the same Gali.

Sameen (her daughter) thought this was the first of its kind in Zakir Nagar : private cabins- the computer and you.

Sameen hates someone peeping at her screen.

Both of us decided to go together.

Hired a system There was also a system of getting registered with the address and name before sitting on a system. This "organization" made her feel as if she was in an airport or a cyberden in Vasant Kunj.

Mails kept on bouncing back. There was a knock at our cabin door. The owner was gazing fixedly at our screen before we could minimize it and complain.

Ten minutes later there was another knock..

The owner�s neck popped over the cabin door. He said, " I�d be too happy if your mails are sent". We replied, " So would we be". He vanished behind the cabin door.

One week later there was a white poster at Yo! Net: NET IN DISORDER.

The banners are still there. One at the entrance, the other between two electric poles across the gali. There are no heavy yellow lights. The gali is also more still at nights.

Naheed is Kahkashan�s friend. She lives fives houses away.

Next to the Jama Masjid. (the main mosque in Zakir Nagar).

23.03.03. Sunday. 10 a.m.

Sitting in her verandah I could hear the following sounds:

Kabadi wallai..kabadi. Aaloo lo piyaz lo�sabziwallai�kulfiwallai ki ghanti....the phone ring...washing machine timer..shifting of some furniture in the neighbouring house� cycle and a motorcycle..

Naheed arranged a local anti war rally. The route included Noor Nagar, Batla House, Joga Bai and Zakir Nagar- colonies settled as extensions of one main road but expanding endlessly into lanes, bylanes and newer main roads.

 

19.03.03.Wednesday.8.30 p.m.

Naheed�s mother lives across the main road. Kahkashan reached there with her friends and Sameen. Naheed was upset. Kahkashan was late. The jaloos had already passed.

On the main road Naheed and Kahkashaan ran into an argument as to why she got late: was it the cricket on TV because of which she did not hear the rising slogans or was it the aazaan (prayer call) kahkashan pointed to the joggers she was wearing for the occasion.

Naheed said that atleast Bush got her out on the streets.

To this kahkashan replied, " usne to bahut logon ko sadak pe nikala hai"

(I had recorded this event on tape. While making diary entries I was listening to it again. Because of the quality of my recorder and my position within the crowd on the main road, the conversation lost to other sounds)

A dog�s bark.

A cycle horn that sounded like a whining baby. More horns.

Cars whirring past. Motorcycles.

Feet. Voices.

22.03.03. Saturday. 11a.m.

Kahkashan and Naheed at Trimurti Bhavan to participate in the anti war rally.

Demonstrated. Tried breaking the barracks. The cops made them sit in a lorry saying that they were being taken to the U.S. embassy where they could sit on a dharna. They landed in a thana.

After being released they had coffee and patties.

Naheed had been badly hurt.

Returned home.

22.03.03. Saturday. 7p.m.

Went for an interview with Kahkashan.

She was busy cleaning her face. Has just returned from the rally.

Her 12 year old son, Amaam, asked me to record a song he wanted to sing from the film Kaante.

"�.collar ko thora sa upar chara ke

cigarette ke dhuan ke challa bana ke�.."

He sang the whole song. Kept confirming if I was recording it.

Sameen, Amaan and their brother Akif listened to the whole song. They were looking at each other and grinning.

Smell of buffaloes in the room (a peculiarly pungent mix of dung, mud and the stagnant water of the Yamuna canal where they go to bathe every morning and evening)

Kahkashan�s verandah almost runs into the gali.

It was packed with popping heads of the buffaloes going to Fakhruddin�s dairy on the main road.

Traffic on the main road had come to a halt. Two men with lathis across the gali�s entrance supervised the movement of the buffaloes.

Kahkashan said that Gali no.7 was the most "respectable" gali in Zakir Nagar. She came here 22 years ago. Before that, she used to stay in Batla House. From the window of her room she could see the batla house pulia, the bus stand and the Jamia University. Between Zakir Nagar and Batla House, the main road had keekar and babul trees on either sides. The Jogabai pulia had a Kuan. That was used as a garbage dump. From her terrace in Zakir Nagar, she could see the Yamuna canal.

The gali now: innumerable houses and electricity poles almost heaving under the weight of the uncountable Katias (the local electricity connection wires taken from the main lines).

Its end has vanished. All one can see of it at the other end (away from the Zakir Nagar main road) is a curve blocked by a four story building of the Tender Hearts School and a web of wires hanging from an electricity pole.

At the far end of the curve is a music shop from where Sameen gets songs of her choice recorded onto blank tapes. She calls them her "personal albums."

She puts down her signature on every jacket.

From her Grandmother�s place in Batla House, Sameen often takes the Muradi Road extension. It runs parallel to the Zakir Nagar main road. The galis are connected to the expanded settlement through it.

When Sameen takes this road, her music shop falls on her left: there are two main points of entry to the bhaison wali gali. A nukkad halfway through the gali has a S.T.D. booth at its corner. A lane branches to the left of the Bhaisoon wali gali. It connects it to Rasheed Hotel wali gali from Muradi Road�s side.. Gali no.6. Named after the oldest hotel at its nukkad connecting it to Zakir Nagar main road.

23.03.03. Sunday. 7p.m.

Kahkashan�s mother.

Came to see her from Batla House by a rickshaw.

Told me:

Muradi Road is named after contractor Murad.

Batla House after an English General.( Was not very sure of this.)

Zakir Nagar after Dr. Zakir Hussain.

Nafees lane (perhaps) after Nafees Saheb who owned a lot of land around the area.

Initially, Jogabai was called Jodhabai or Yogabai. Named after a six hundred year old aheer queen. Believed to be the first settler of the area by the local community of Gujjars.


With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs
--0-713821909-1048570315=:47875-- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: that we both feel our identity comes from a place where we no longer live and this gives us a relative freedom. And yet we both feel connected to that place." It was Said who introduced Barenboim to his Palestinian friends. "I think when he was growing up in Israel he never met a Palestinian, they may as well have been on the moon." He was impressed by Barenboim's openness. And it was Barenboim who helped provide Said with a new musical focus. In 1999 they formed together an orchestra, The East West Divan, inviting musicians from the Middle East to come to Weimar to play together. The idea, Said says, "was to provide a symbolic meeting in the world of ideas and music. Not to find a solution, but to provide a metaphor quite removed from politics. We don't discuss politics or if we do it is just one person saying, 'I think this or that.' "Music then became the common framework, the abstract language of harmony. "Both of us share the primacy of the aesthetic, both of us are interested in how you deal with aesthetics in the world." Of course it sounds impressive, this search for a mutual framework, harmony out of discord. But Said and Barenboim also have in common a certain intransigence to the world, a lack of compromise. Both have made large gestures - Said in his politics, Barenboim in his music - that have attracted controversy and, you could say, work in the opposite direction from concord. Said is, of course, an outspoken critic of Arafat and the Oslo peace process. "I acknowledge Arafat's great achievement after 1968 in putting together a Palestinian identity," he says, but on Oslo he remains unmovable. "He gave them everything just to keep his power. It was the Palestinian Versailles. I have never forgiven him." Barenboim's position on Oslo is more tentative: "No matter what you think of the Oslo accord... it lost all chance of succeeding when the tempo, the speed at which it was proceeding, became so slow." In their book, Said and Barenboim both argue the case for a lack of artistic compromise. But in the political world, Said's critics might say, he jeopardised the best they could get - Oslo - for a sort of perfectionism, an ideal good. And there may be some who will never forgive him. The same could be said of Barenboim's decision to play Wagner in Jerusalem in 2000. That it was unnecessary, a grandstanding gesture, more likely to cause offence than to defend any principle - the artistic freedom to play what he chooses, where he chooses. "I don't have to play Wagner in Jerusalem, I can play my Wagner anywhere." So why did he? He defends his decision: "Of course I understand that for some, Wagner evokes unbearable associations, I see that and I respect that." Those who don't want to hear it, he says, have the option to stay away. "I do not accept the fact that someone somewhere in their apartment suffers because Wagner is being played somewhere else." It's a fair point but it ignores the sensibility that would see Wagner not as complicit in the Holocaust - he was dead 50 years before the Nazis came to power - but complicit in the culture that produced Nazism. In history, some might say you don't become innocent just because you are dead - there is no neutral position. The question of motivation will determine how the book is seen. Whether cynically, the "nattering" of two privileged intellectuals. Or optimistically, as people of good intent. In any conflict, on any side, there will be people of good will and people not of good will. And ultimately, how their dialogue, their unlikely friendship, is received will say more about us than it says about them � Parallels & Paradoxes: Explorations In Music And Society, by Daniel Barenboim and Edward Said, is published by Bloomsbury, at �16.99. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: February 15 pre-war demonstration, contrasting its "much fuller demographic spectrum" with memories of demonstrations against the Vietnam War where "we were bound by a sense of self-selected minority identity, sociological martyrs united in spirit against the misguided mainstream." Expressive rights are fundamental to an anti-war movement, since to contend with violent nationalist ideologies is to refuse their articulations and thus speak from an alienated, inherently questionable citizenship. Hostile delimitation of the extent of expressive rights increasingly relies on 'market forces' and, in public environments, on nominally benign institutional guidelines. Two essays focus on the incursions against speech and civil rights, part of the Iraq War cultural environment. Niaz Kasravi and Rafik Mohamed review two post-9/11 high-profile free speech cases ? Bill Maher and Michael Moore ? to illustrate how corporate-denominated 'profitable speech' operates. Michelle Matisons examines how a university that protects free speech in relation to the Iraq War simultaneously sets out to channel unruly expression and sentiments via teaching guidelines that normalize a war culture. Another group of essays reflect on the American Empire and its iatrogenic social communications. Max Fraad-Wolff and Rick Wolff review and describe the basic form of imperial America and its elements, emphasizing their inseparability from the lengthy history of global imperialism. A vital interrelationship between games, entertainments and empire, once the sustainer of the British empire, has re-appeared in Iraq War video culture that conjoins military training and media reportage. Debra Benita Shaw relates the ethos of Iraq War militarism and its 'invincible warriors' to Robert Heinlein's science fiction novel, Starship Troopers, as sharing an endless military-political pursuit of empire. In a set of personal reflections, Bad Subjects Collective editor Arturo Aldama explores similar themes of video-games and reality television as para-war imaginative entertainments. Television critic Cynthia Fuchs continues such engagements in her essay, "The War Show," which examines the features of televised war, its embedded reporters, and the specter of a 'disloyal' media informant like Peter Arnett. Babak Rahimi argues that US media are deeply implicated in formulating and transmitting a ritualistic cycle of war sacrifice, memorialization, and civil resurrection of the dead. CNN, MSNBC and other major networks become, in this reading, sites of "ritual enactment that [allow] the deceased soldier in the immortality of a transcendent entity�the nation." The rituals of American reportage provide an interpretive key for Michael Hoffman's reflective essay, one that implicates pattern repetition across an array of media reports of historical events during the past decades. In the end, Hoffman prefers the cool medium of newsprint to understand the Iraq War. Mass communications lecturer Steven Rubio blogged under heavy fire from the Berkeley fedayeen to complete his mission: a media review that considers the Iraq War as the first blogging war. Jo Rittenhouse and Elisabeth Hurst bring the home-front back into focus with an essay that addresses the news that disappears, the news of everyday life and human rights violations that disappear beneath the war news. Just as visibility is key to political campaigns, visibility is key to individual human rights. The Iraq War makes clear the consequences of violence's invisibility in a world-system, as the destructive invisibility of the closet has internalized gender violence to catastrophic effect. Beginning in queer theory, Nathan Snaza maps out reflections emerging from this parallel. New sets of permitted visibilities and enforced invisibilities create conflicts that demand humanization without reference to particularistic identity. Binoy Kampmark examines the paradox of an American demand that a foreign nation disarm while US citizens arm themselves as part of a gun culture unequalled anywhere else in the world. Gun culture provides a false emancipation, a belief that freedom arises from an equality of fear. Kampmark's essay points to the role of the gun-state, to the symbolic reification of destructive will in underwriting political monopolies, and to the equation of precise sniping with precision bombing. Claire Norton identifies another paradox in the naming of the agents of violence, or why Western combatants are called 'soldiers' while Iraqis are called 'fedayeen.' The naming of enemies is heavily value-laden and by legitimizing government terminology the media situates enemy combatants within an official narrative whose purpose is to legitimize the US-British invasion. Developing responses to the persuasive capacities of capital-intensive media that dramatize and provide running commentary on exhibitionist state violence is crucial to creating resistance. tobias van Veen discusses Brian Massumi's theorization of a tactics of affect, a discussion that reformulates a historic debate in US progressivism, dating to at least the early nineteenth century, between the roles of warm sentiment and cold analysis in shaping a receptive political topology. van Veen advocates mass media involvement and "tactical engagement with affect" as means of creating positive and communicative politics. This Extra Bad! edition of Bad Subjects is only a beginning, a sample of social critique occasioned by rampant state militarism. Go read, go act, be extra Bad! yourself. Joe Lockard teaches early American literature at Arizona State University and has been a member of the Bad Subjects Collective for nine years. He joins the Collective in thanking Elisabeth Hurst ? eshet hayil ? for her instrumental work on this emergency issue. � From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: comes an interesting take on Scott-Heron's 'the revolution will not be televised' written by Eddan Katz. I advise everyone to visit the above URL, since the text is filled with hyperlinks, for the browser impaired though, here's the text: Revolution is not an AOL Keyword* You will not be able to stay home, dear Netizen. You will not be able to plug in, log on and opt out. You will not be able to lose yourself in Final Fantasy, Or hold your Kazaa download queues, Because revolution is not an AOL Keyword. Revolution is not an AOL Keyword. Revolution will not be brought to you on Hi-Def TV Encrypted with a warning from the FBI. Revolution will not have a jpeg slideshow of Dubya Calling the cattle and leading the incursion by Secretary Rumsfeld, General Ashcroft and Dick Cheney Riding nuclear warheads on their way to Iraq, Or North Korea, or Iran. Revolution is not an AOL Keyword. Revolution will not be powered by Microsoft on The Next-Generation Secure Computing Base And will not star Pamela Anderson and Tommy Lee Or Larry Lessig and Martha Stewart. Revolution will not promise penile enlargement. Revolution will not get rid of spam. Revolution will not earn you up to $5000 a month Working from home, because revolution is not An AOL Keyword, Brother. There will be no screen grabs of you and Jeeves the Butler one-click shopping at My Yahoo, Or outbidding a shady grandma on eBay for That refurbished iPod 20-gig. MSNBC.com will not predict election results in Florida Or fact-check the Drudge Report. Revolution is not an AOL Keyword. There will be no webcast of Wil Wheaton boxing Barney the Dinosaur on the dancefloor at DNA. There will be no mob- or wiki- blog of Richard Stallman Strolling through Redmond in a medieval robe and halo As St. iGNUcious of the Church of Emacs That he has been saving For just the proper occasion. Survivor, The Osbournes, and Joe Millionaire Will no longer be so damned relevant, and People will not care if Carrie hooks up again with Mr. Big on Sex and the City because Information Wants To Be Free even while Knowledge Is Power. Revolution is not an AOL Keyword. There will be no final pictures from inside the World Trade Center in the instant replay. There will be no final pictures from inside the World Trade Center in the instant replay. There will be no RealVideo of 2600-reading, Linux-booting white hat hacktivists And Mickey Mouse in the public domain. The theme song will not be written by Jack Valenti or Hilary Rosen, nor sung by Metallica, Dr. Dre, Christina Aguilera, Matchbox 20, or Blink-182. Revolution is not an AOL Keyword. Revolution will not be right back after Pop-up ads about eCommerce, eTailers, or eContent. You will not have to worry about a Cookie in your browser, a bug in your email, or a Worm in your recycling bin. Revolution will not run faster with Intel inside. Revolution, dude, is not getting a Dell. Revolution will increase your Google rank. Revolution is not an AOL Keyword, is not an AOL Keyword, Is not an AOL Keyword, is not an AOL Keyword. Revolution will be no stream or download, dear Netizen; Revolution must still be live. See generally Gil Scott-Heron, The Revolution Will Not Be Televised. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "All things flow" - Heraclitus -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: In this new phase of Bengali cinema, film narratives began to change from its earlier studio socials. A new kind of social consciousness considering the family relationships in new urban socio-economy, couple formation and sexuality in urban context appeared as major subject and formulated a new kind of melodrama. Gradually, star persona began to dominate the film text. But Aurora interestingly avoided the mainstream film practice. They neither continued the earlier socials, nor fully shifted in star furnished melodramas. Rather they preferred to exercise with other genres like mythological, devotional and biographical. Being a senior film enterprise, Aurora took it a task to convey traditional values through their film text. In fact, Aurora always looked for a parallel existence in the film industry from its inception down through the ages. This attitude gradually inspired Aurora to involve with parallel cinema later. A) Production 1. Khelaghar, Bodhodoy & Chutir Dine (1951). It was a package of three children films. Initially Aurora produced Khelaghar. But the film was too short to release independently. So Aurora produced another two short films named Bodhodoy and Chutir Dine and released as a package, according to a review of 'Hindustan Standard' dated 30.06.1951, " A delightful package of juvenile entertainment." Khelaghar, written and directed by Soumeyn Mukherjee, was in many ways a remarkable attempt at film fantasy of the juvenile brand in which a young and poor orphaned thing is surprised one night into his unfulfilled dream surrounding a toy shop come true and visualizes toys of animals and human beings assume the shape and throb of life, climaxed by a trip across the starry sky to the moon.(Amrita Bazar Patrika, 01.07.1951). Bodhodoy was a three reeler comedy written and directed by Niranjan Pal, which bring home the moral that work and play should not be mixed together to the detriment of both. Chutir Dine was a nice travelogue in two reels which takes the audience on a sight-seeing tour of the Calcutta Zoological Gardens.(Hindustan Standard, 30.06.1951). This package, mainly Khelaghar, was highly praised while reviewed in every magazine like, 'Roop O Katha', 'Basumati', 'Jugantar' and so on. 'Ananda Bazar Patrika' claimed (02.07.1951) for exemption of tax due to the educational value of those films. But the films did not run good as 'Bhagnadoot' magazine mourned in its film review (20.07.1951). 2. Prahlad (1952). Initially it was designed as a seven-reeler children film to release with Khelaghar. But finally Aurora decided to make 'Prahlad' a full-length feature film, as the production cost was almost same and released independently. The film was furnished with nine songs of 'kirtan' style. In a review on 26.01.1952, 'Amrita Bazar Patrika' wrote: "This mythological film depicting the inspiring story of the unshakable devotion and faith of the boy Prahlad to Lord Krishna and defied death largely dipped in the sacred pond of devotion and had been treated by director Phani Barma in an essay and simple way, divested of any straining oversubtle dramatic spinning out of situations so that it can bring its lessons home straight to the hearts of the big multitudes devotionally inclined." Most of the newspapers reviewed Prahlad as an average film. 'Hindustan Standard' wrote (26.01.1952): "The producers have filmized those (mythological) accounts in a manner that will appeal more to the common mass of picture goers than audience of a more higher level." But the film ran well. From the station ledger it is found that, in next twenty years (up to 05. 11.1973), the film returned a total amount of Rs.2,28,607.26p., almost four times more of its production cost. 3. Muskil Asaan (1953). The film was based on a social subject. Having a higher expectation, Aurora distributed eight prints at its first release. But the film flopped severely. 4. Joydev (1954). After doing experiment on three different genres, now Aurora was interested to produce a devotional film Joydev, based on the life of the renowned poet whom was devoted to Lord Krishna. Having twenty-one songs, this film was highly praised for its musical values and got a very good popularity too. As station ledger indicates, at first release, the film ran continuous 56 days in 'Sree' (North Calcutta) and 49 days each in 'Basushree' (South Calcutta) and 'Bina' (Central Calcutta) cinema hall. Not only this urban impact, but also this film was popular in the rural areas like at a cinema hall in 'Bakura' district (35 days), at 'Naihati' (North 24 Pargana dist.) cinema hall (21 days) and even after one year at 'Nawadeep' (Nadia dist.) cinema hall (33 days). 5. Raikamal (1955). This film was an exercise of making fusion with different genres like musical, social and to some extends devotional. The dominating note of the story was of course one of romance. But in the film, it was depicted as a conflict between physical love and eternity of an adolescent girl under the cultural circumference of Baishnav community, a specific caste of Hindu religion devoted to Lord Krishna. This film was a successful adaptation of the popular novel by Tarashankar Bandopadhyay, as 'Amrita Bazar Patrika' titled their review: "Raikamal, a literary gem filmed with fine charm." They started with, " Among current releases of Bengali films in Calcutta, the picture - or it is a poem? - which come first and foremost to my mind is 'Raikamal' a more than two hour pleasant dream in celluloid." The characterization of the central protagonist was appreciated almost in every review. 'Hindustan Standard' wrote: "Raikamal is like a full blown lotus; it has a beauty that pleases the eye, fragrance that fills the heart, and, above all, everything in it seems real - a rare attribute in a world of make believe!" 'Amrita Bazar Patrika' also added: "It require extraordinary courage on the part of a director to trust a newcomer with such a complex role as that of its heroine who literally appears in every scene." The film was furnished with twenty-seven devotional songs, mainly of 'Kirtan' style. 'Janasevak' magazine praised those songs, but according to 'Ananda Bazar Patrika', it was a monotonous experience as all those songs were sung by the same person. Though it was a story of rural life, yet the film was more accepted in the urban audience. At first release, the film ran continuous 66 days in 'Darpana' (North Calcutta) and also in 'Purna' (South Calcutta) cinema hall whereas in rural areas it ran maximum one or two week. In 1956, 'Raikamal' was selected for Berlin film festival. It was the first Indian feature film that was televisoned in foreign, on 27th June1956 at Berlin Television. This film was also selected for Manila film festival. 6. Parisodh (1955). This film, written and directed by Pemendra Mitra, was another flop attempt of Aurora. 'Basumati' magazine (06.05.1955) reviewed that, the film had immense possibilities to be a good one, but unfortunately the film was flopped due to its treatment. 'Ananda Bazar Patrika' analyzed (06.05.1955) that, having a good story, an experienced director, efficient technicians, renowned performers, the film failed to make convincing due to its weak screenplay, wearisome progression of narrative and improper dramatization. 'Jugantar patrika' suggested (13.05.1955) the audience to imagine more than the film offered to see. But 'Hindustan Standard' criticized (06.05.1955) the most: "The title is deceptive. For if it implies the repayment of a debt, there is no indication of its nature, or to whom it is owing and by whom. Some may even explain the title as the repayment by picture goers of a debt which perhaps they owe unknowingly to Aurora Film Corporation. Such an interpretation would not be wrong either, because paying for this picture at the box office would be no pleasure unless it is some repayment of some past debt." 7. Mahanisha (1955). After 'Parisodh', Aurora produced another film, Mahanisha, in the same year. But unfortunately this film also failed to get audience. 8. Harishchandra (!957). After two big failures, once again Aurora chose a mythological subject for its next film. But interestingly, the film preferred to portray the character of Harishchandra with a moral of humanity through a straightforward dramatization of the narrative rather than to emphasize its mythic elements. 'Cine Advance' reviewed (07.06.1957): "Of the many mythological films shown in recent times, Harishchandra should prove more than agreeable because of its comprehensive get-up. It is perhaps impossible to imagine a mythological without its usual harvest of trick camera shots. But the producers here has taken care not to present the audience with too many trick shots which give the film an air of magic show. So we can enjoy the film as a moving human drama where a king desperately tries to stick to his words" This film ran well only in 'Sree' cinema hall (North Calcutta), continuous 56 days, whereas in other cinema halls both, in urban and rural areas, the film did an average business. 9. Jalsaghar (1958). Based on two short stories named 'Raybari' and 'Jalsaghar', this film was scripted and directed by Satyajit Ray. Meanwhile Aurora distributed Ray's 'Pather Panchali' and 'Aparajito'. Like those earlier films, 'Jalsaghar' also got high praise, mainly the directorial work. 'Hindustan standard' (17.10.1958) wrote: "In artistic achievement this latest film from Satyajit Ray is a definite landmark in Indian movie history and reveals a new facet of its director's creative genius�.Jalsaghar is mainly a director's picture and it bristles with his creative touches." 'Amrita Bazar Patrika' also added (17.10.1958): "To asses his directorial capacity judged from Jalsaghar the critic is apt to be confused where and how to begin. There is such a maturity of realization of every detail of tragic human life writ large on every foot of his picture that it once again Satyajit Roy from the bulk of his class�. Splendid is the word that only partially describes Satyajit Roy in Tarashankar's fine study of decayed aristocracy in Jalsaghar." From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: 10. Chupi Chupi Aasey (1960). "Patterned after the 'whodunit' kind of murder mystery on the lines of the West, Aurora Film Corporation's latest production ' Chupi Chupi Aasey' depends for its suspense value on the bluffing identity of a murderer who is out to kill a number of people by way of revenge for wrongs committed in the past." (Amrita Bazar Patrika, 01.07.1960). The film did not run well. 'Amrita Bazar Patrika' indicated that the film was comparatively poor in both direction and technical values. 'Hindustan Standard' also added (01. 07.1960): "In minor details, however, he (director) reveals extreme carelessness. He has also packed the proceedings with too much dialogue which has considerably slowed down the film's tempo - a vital falling in a crime drama." 11. Bhagini Nivedita (1962). This film was based on the life story of Sister Nivedita, the foreign lady who dedicated her life to the cause of India. But interestingly, Bijoy Bose, who made his directorial debut in this film, assembled several events chronologically to form a linear narrative rather than to make it a drama. This exercise offered such a dramatic experience, which was a rare occurrence in Bengali cinema. "The early life of Margaret Noble, her search for truth, her youthful love which was lost due to the accidental death of her lover, her meeting with Swami Vivekananda, the great awakening in her, her coming to India, the re-christening of her name as 'Nivedita' by Swamiji, the dedication of her life to the education of Indian women, her direct connection with the death defying revolutionaries of Bengal, her talking up the editorship of the organ of the revolutionaries after the sudden disappearance of Aurobindo Ghosh, the writing of the book 'The Master As I Saw Him' even in shattered health, and then her death in Darjeeling in the presence of Jagadish Chandra Bose (later Sir J.C.Bose) have all been beautifully depicted by director Bijoy Bose. Bhagini Nivedita is a biographical film which uses religion, social work and the rise and spread of the revolution of backdrops." (Sport & Pastime, 17.03.1962). "It is the film of a profoundly authentic manifestation of a particular faith, which became universal, of a period which is the richest in the history, of a life which served man and God through her work." (Cine Advance, 23.03.1962). To establish the spatial reality in outdoor sequence, Aurora did an England tour to for its location shooting. Like the film, its producers were highly appreciated too. "At a time when unconventional cinema is smashing many traditions and the conventional cinema is making a desperate attempt to cling at the box office with the help of a routine story and stars in demand, Aurora Film Corporation's Bhagini Nivedita has come out as one of those rare films that educate the mind of a nation and, at the same time, gives a new stature to film entertainment. It is a type of moving, emotional and highly dramatic motion picture which silences criticism and evokes spontaneous admiration and unprejudiced praise." (Sport & Pastime, 17.03.1962). "The best point about this fascinating film is that it does not indulge in exaggerations. Everything is presented on the screen in its correct setting, and proper care has been exercised in selecting the locales and its characters." (Hindustan Standard, 23.02.1962). The film got a huge acceptance among the audience. It ran continuous 119 days in 'Radha' (North Calcutta) and in 'Purna' (South Calcutta) cinema hall at its first release. 'Bhagini Nivedita' got the national award as the best film of that year. It was also selected for entry in the 23rd International Exhibition of Cinematographic Art in Venice in 1962. 12. Radhakrishna (1964). This mythological film narrating the immortal love story of Radha-Krishna was the next film of Aurora. Though the film was started with the sequence of 'Kaliya Daman', yet it mainly highlighted the different activities of Krishna as a lover boy and to build up an amorous relationship between Radha and Krishna was its ultimate desire. The director Ardhendu Mukhopadhyay treated the film as a musical, supported by forty songs of traditional style, and experimented with two newcomers in the role of central protagonists. The film did not run well. 'Hindustan Standard' analyzed (24.07.1964): "The Radha-Krishna love saga has been brought down to the level of adolescent romping of roadside Romeos in this indifferent film from Aurora, once the pioneer among producers. The main trouble with it is its failure to create a proper setting for this romantic spree of Gods." 'Amrita Bazar Patrika' also wrote (24.07.1964): "Both the leading players - Uttar Banerjee (Krishna) and Sanchita Banerjee (Radha) - fail to impress owing mainly to their inexperience. The banal nature of the dialogue that they have mouth also adds to their difficulty." 13. Raja Rammohan (1965). The immense success of its earlier film 'Bhagini Nivedita' inspired Aurora to produce another biographical film based on the life and work of Raja Rammohan Roy, an epoch making personality who is acknowledged to be among the makers of modern India. From a business point of view, this film was the most successful production of Aurora. It ran continuous 133 days in 'Sree' (North Calcutta) and in 'Indira' (South Calcutta) cinema hall, at its first release. Station ledger indicates that Aurora earned (up to 29.12.1975) a total amount of Rs.7,80,377 and 32p. from 35mm print and Rs.3,308 and 25p. from 16 mm prints. The film got a good praise in every review, especially in 'Ananda Bazar Patrika', Mr. Prafulya Sen, the honourable Chief Minister of West Bengal of that time, addressed to all youth to see the film. It was the first Bengali film to get exemption from the amusement tax. The film also got the honour of 'Certificate of Merit' for standing third among the Bengali films of that year. 14. Arogya Niketan (1969). Based on Tarashankar Bandopadhyay's epic size story, Arogya Niketan was another national award wining film of Aurora. The basic premise of the text was a conflict between tradition and modernity defining an ideological clash between an old 'kaviraj', the last stalwart of a decadent system of indigenous medicine, and his grandson, a practitioner of allopathic medicine, and more interestingly, these two generations of the same family were unknown to each other due to a separation and generation gap. Though 'The Statesman' published an unsatisfied note regarding the cinematic transformation from the original text, but most of the other newspapers acknowledged the film as a good one, specially the exceptional performance of Bikash Roy in the central role. Indeed, the film ran good, 11 weeks in 'Minar' (North Calcutta), 'Bijoli' (South Calcutta) and 'Chabighar' (Central Calcutta) cinema hall, at its first release. 15. Duranta Joy (1973). Aurora's last and the most failure effort of feature film production was Duranta Joy, another experiment of director Ardhendu Mukhopadhyay with two newcomers in the central role. This film flopped so badly that Aurora itself did not keep any record in station ledger. B) Distribution. Apart from its own productions, Aurora distributed few films of other companies also. Unlike earlier phases, in Post Independence era, Aurora distributed only Bengali films, and specially a bunch of parallel cinema like, 'Pather Panchali', 'Aparajito', 'Parash Pathar', 'Ajantrik' etc. If distribution sector was the major financial source of movie business, then why Aurora did not distribute any star studded movie which usually returns more? Was it a strategy to explore the alternative market of Bengali cinema, - or an effort to continue the cultural heritage of a traditional institution through a straightway negation of cheap cinematographic representation of modernity? As 'Amrita Bazar Patrika' wrote (02.02.1970): "That with all the temptation of making peppy, sex oriented films some producers should still be drawn producing idealistic and purposeful pictures is a standing compliment to those few in Bengal alone. Aurora Film Corporation has been steadily and noticeably following the tradition of producing pictures that just can not be lost in the melee of glamour coated but dirt cheap money-spinners.", or according to 'Cine Advance' (01.03.1962): "The Elephant (New Theatres Ltd.) is dead and M.P. Studios have closed down their doors�The institution which is still there to make worthwhile nation pictures is the Aurora Film Corporation." Being a purely business organization, however it was not right for Aurora to ignore the mainstream movie business. As a result, Aurora had to stop both, production and distribution of feature films. Aurora's last feature film 'Duranta Joy' was produced in 1973 and last distribution of a new film was 'Moyna Tadanta' in 1982. Then Aurora stepped into its next phase. By hiring the studio premise, by making commissioned projects and by distributing those old feature films, Aurora still exists. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Unplastered walls had layers of torn posters on it. It was a bit of Urdu, a bit of Hindi and English. The next morning fresh posters of Real Cause NGO were put up in red. On the other side of the road, at the Batla House Chowk, three women were drinking fruit juice. FRUIT JUICE the signboard read. It had faces of Amitabh Bachhan and Kareena kapoor painted . They had glasses in their hands and were smiling at all who were looking at them. Another signboard in blue read : Batla House Chowk � Muradi Road � Khalilullah Masjid � The women laughed as they drank. Through the glass panes of Shankar Electronics, 8 TV screens flashed. AB complex. Main Road. Zakir Nagar.>>22.05.03 I was setting up my mic, headphones and the walkman at la femme. The street horns were mixed with sounds of hair dryers� Radio Mirchi jingles� and the laughter of the vendors outside. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: In the dead of the afternoon, a woman walked in. Middle aged.. her hair covered in a scarf� chatted as if addressing all who were present there. Said that she could only visit a beauty parlour was when her mother-in-law was away in their village in Bijnor. Said that she was from Pakistan. But now lived in Mumtaz Hotel wali gali. A postman knocked. Asked if this was dada bhai�s home.. The woman wondered if the awry numbering of homes was deliberate here..to avoid what happened in Gujarat� Late evening.. Two sisters walked in. Looked at my mic and recorder. Asked me about my work. Said that they loved watching films at cinema halls. Narrated the story of Dil hai Tumhara. They saw this film @ Golcha with their larger family settled in Praani Dilli. --------------------------------- It's Samaritans' Week. Help Samaritans help others. Call 08709 000032 to give or donate online now at http://www.samaritans.org/support/donations.shtm --MIMEStream=_0+38608_4383727383107_05215593258 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Standing @ the gate>>02.5.03

Late afternoon. The gali was full of slanting shadows of electricity poles, night lamps and Katias (local electricity connection wires anchored onto the main lines with pride).

Javed bhai was on his cycle. Turned around the nukkad and looked confused.

Was collecting the cable rent for the month from house to house.

After handing out my payment slip he asked for house no. 173/3.

It should have been my neighbor�s.

But the house next to mine was numbered 567.

He looked irritated. Asked for a glass of water and moved on.

In the silence of the afternoon, his cycle made screeching sounds like an old engine.

The pamphlet he gave me was in black and white.

It had icons of different channels on its left and right sides.

The middle carried: Manoranjan Network wishes you a Happy Summer Vacation.

Manoranjan is the raja here�I remember someone say.

Raja was the name of the cable network that lost out to Manoranjan many years back.

Home cable gives the latest films (Hindi/ English) and Pakistani music videos. New shops or beauty parlors that opens in the area have their advertisement on the Home network.

One of the local offices at which Javed reports is at the Batla House Chowk. It is run by the sons of Bal krishan Yadav. They also own the oldest mobile retail outlet in the area.

Bal krishan offered me a chair and a glass of water as I settled to interview him.

Came to Joga Bai in 1972. "I was a handsome man then", he told me.

There was a cottage near what is know known as the Batla House pulia. Mr. Butler lived there. Batla house was initially Butler House.

" Who was this Mr. Butler?" I asked him.

" shayad woh angrez tha.." he said.

Bal krishan sells steel utensils in his shop.

His shop does not have a name. He does not believe in names and advertising.

A customer walked in looking for a pair of tongs. Bal krishan told him to check out shops in Okhla.

The customer said, " but here..the place where I�m standing is Okhla �isin�t it?" They exchanged confused looks. Bal krishan argued that it was Joga Bai. They argued for long. But the customer remained unconvinced.

From his shop I could see a building under construction. Iron rods were jutting out� freshly laid roof was supported by vertical wooden pillars�lots of dust..almost hazy.

Unplastered walls had layers of torn posters on it. It was a bit of Urdu, a bit of Hindi and English.

The next morning fresh posters of Real Cause NGO were put up in red.

On the other side of the road, at the Batla House Chowk, three women were drinking fruit juice. FRUIT JUICE the signboard read. It had faces of Amitabh Bachhan and Kareena kapoor painted . They had glasses in their hands and were smiling at all who were looking at them.

Another signboard in blue read :

Batla House Chowk �FONT>

Muradi Road �FONT>

Khalilullah Masjid �FONT>

The women laughed as they drank.

Through the glass panes of Shankar Electronics, 8 TV screens flashed.

AB complex. Main Road. Zakir Nagar.>>22.05.03

I was setting up my mic, headphones and the walkman at la femme.

The street horns were mixed with sounds of hair dryers� Radio Mirchi jingles� and the laughter of the vendors outside.

From a glass display which was full with bottles of aroma products, I could see an electricity pole almost heaving under the weight of Katias. A blue sign board in the shape of an arrow hung loose over the pole. It read: Gali no. 7. Zakir Nagar. Instead of pointing towards the Gali, it pointed towards the main road.

In the dead of the afternoon, a woman walked in.

Middle aged.. her hair covered in a scarf� chatted as if addressing all who were present there.

Said that she could only visit a beauty parlour was when her mother-in-law was away in their village in Bijnor.

Said that she was from Pakistan. But now lived in Mumtaz Hotel wali gali.

A postman knocked.

Asked if this was dada bhai�s home..

The woman wondered if the awry numbering of homes was deliberate here..to avoid what happened in Gujarat�

Late evening..

Two sisters walked in.

Looked at my mic and recorder.

Asked me about my work.

Said that they loved watching films at cinema halls.

Narrated the story of Dil hai Tumhara.

They saw this film @ Golcha with their larger family settled in Praani Dilli.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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http://www.samaritans.org/support/donations.shtm --MIMEStream=_0+38608_4383727383107_05215593258-- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Video H�ophonia / Marcos Bonisson / Brazil-RJ / Video I Am Francisco Lopez / Gaston Duprat and Mariano Cohn / Argentina / Video Mundo Mim, o Inverso de Mix / Teresa Labarr� / Brazil-SP / Video O Sorvete / Elisa Noronha / Brazil-SC / Video Objects in the Mirror are Closer than they Appear / Macau / Brazil-SP / Video Paradoxo / Grupo de Pesquisa Corpos Inform�cos / Brazil-DF / Video Poses do 19 / Gavin Adams, Solange Ferraz de Lima and V�a Carneiro de Carvalho / Brazil-SP / Video Projeto Auto-imagem em V�o / Leandro Vieira and Mariana Meloni / Brazil-SP / Net Refletir / Vera Uberti / Brazil-SP / Video Rizoma 0314 / 7077 / 5040 / 8011 / 2004 / 3172 / 0667 / Marcellvs L. / Brazil-MG / Video San Wenceslao (Tres historias) / Ricardo Suarez Pareyon Aveleyra / Mexico / Video Solu�s Vers�is para um Mundo Moderno / Tha�Monteiro and Ticiano Monteiro / Brazil-CE / Video The Griffith Circle: Hide & Seek / IP Yuk-Yiu / China / Video The Interview / Gregg Smith / South Africa/Holland / Video Twist / Alexandre da Cunha / Brazil/United Kingdom / Video �timo Dia de C�/ Maya Pinsky / Brazil-SP / Video Um Espelho Russo / Lidia Chaib and P�cles Cavalcanti / Brazil-SP / Video Vila Ipojuca / Sergio Roizenblit and Tata Amaral / Brazil-SP / Video ---------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------- Se n�deseja mais receber estas mensagens utilize o endere� http://inmailing.insite.com.br/cgi-bin/i?del_user=reader-list at mail.sarai.net&id=614 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: agree that this has to be a priority to be addressed at any future peace table. But back to the point between the descriptions on Radio Pakistan and All India Radio (AIR): What New Delhi calls Terrorism, Islamabad calls freedom fighting. The violent actors within Kashmir are probably more independent agents than dependent upon Rawalpindi. In opposing them they must be respected for that, as Pakistan must be respected as autonomous and powerful people, also. At the height of this spring's crisis Western intelligence reports that leaked out suggested that Al'Quaida operatives operating in India were trying to destabilize Kashmir as much as possible in hopes that they could win against the American-led Coalition in Afghanistan. In other words they were promoting the chances for nuclear war for their own perverted interests against the security of both India and Pakistan by stepping up attacks against Indian targets in J & K. India had become trapped in a rhetoric regarding Terrorism from which she found she could not easily extradite herself. If we are to believe The Times of India, the Indian high command estimated, by assuming the nuclear option in 1998, New Delhi did not have the 2:1 advantage over the Pakistani forces as assumed during the recent crises, but rather a 1:1.2 -- a factor that better training, morale or even plain luck could offset. This was reported to a Parliamentary Committee, too, according to the Times report. The fact is that South Asia was lucky this time. The next time it may not be. So, it is time that the two nations with the Kashmiri people as equals talk in earnest to create a formula to resolve their contentious claims. A formulistic settlement at the international level could thwart the swampy grounds for terrorism to breed. Finally, to the issue of the existence of Terrorism, the terrorists are men who have very fixed goals and tactics. They are subnational in structure. And to say they are only Islamic is to miss the point. (The Basque nationalistic rebels are another group who are described as Terrorists.) If the Islamicists were hegemonic, they would have similar groups applying the same tactics against them. "Terrorist" is a moral pejorative used against a weaker insurgent by a militarily dominant group. Those insurgents are better described as guerrilla irregulars who employ suicidal tactics. As the stronger party, it is too easy to absolve oneself of any moral complicity in the historical predicament by calling the weaker side Terroristic. In that sense Terrorism does not exist, but violence does. But, most importantly, applying violence alone or blaming another strong state will not make the problem disappear. We have to look into our own policies and actions as well as defending ourselves from harm. And this includes Indians, Kashmiris, Pakistanis, Americans and all others who face this challenge. Finally, this exercise has shown how greatly symbolism and rhetoric have played into our concept of "Terrorism." For a successful counter-insurgency along with an extra-insurgent solution, these two obfuscations have to be sliced away from our vocabulary. It is too easy to call this type of violence "Terrorism," and refuse to understand the underlying causes. The word "Terrorism" can be a way of avoiding a solution to a larger, under lying quandary. *Geoffrey Cook P.O. Box 4233 Berkeley, California 94704-0233 011- (510) 654-9251 (voice) 011- (510) 217-2365 (fax) GCooketal at aol.com From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: wy Dziennik / Polish Daily News, 18 July 2003. Translated from Polish by An= na Milewska.=20 Demand for trial of imam who fleeced mosque, Weekly Thikana, 25 July 2003. = Translated from Bangla by Moinuddin Naser.=20 Bill introduced to regulate wire transfer agencies; transparent accounts fo= r remittances by Enrique Soria, El Diario / La Prensa, 22 July 2003. Transl= ated from Spanish by Matthew T. Corey.=20 State Assembly approves bill to punish immigration charlatans, La Tribuna H= ispana, 23 July 2003. Translated from Spanish by Nicole Lisa.=20 EDITORIALS: A first-hand account of the City Hall assassination of James Davis by Donna= Lamb, Caribbean Life, 29 July 2003. English language.=20 I sat quietly at the press table in the front of the City Council chamber, = waiting for the meeting to begin. Instead, all hell broke loose. When it wa= s finally over, it dawned on me that not only had I taken the last photo of= Councilmember Davis alive, I stood next to the man who killed him while do= ing so! MORE. --MIMEStream=_0+45220_43357644457526_37157265852 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable  

Th= is Week's=20 Voices That Must Be Heard
By IPA-New York= , a=20 sponsored project of the Independent Press Association
Edition 76: 31 July 2003.

NEWS ITEMS:
= Russian radio station sets its own path by A.=20 Mikhailovich, Russian Forward, 24 July 2003.= =20 Translated from Russian by Marian Bassett.
On March 1, ̶= 0;Novaya=20 Zhizn” [New Life] radio appeared on 620 AM, breaking the monopoly of = “Narodnaya=20 Volna” [The People’s Radio Station]. Months later, the two Russ= ian-language=20 stations are engaged in a competitive battle for advertisers, journalists a= nd=20 distinctive programming to lure listeners. An interview with the president = and=20 vice-president of New Life Broadcasting Company reveals their strategies to= =20 deliver the best news and programming to listeners.=20MORE.<= /P>“Narodnaya Volna” in a society of “mutual= =20 admiration” by Leah Moses,=20Russian Forward, 24 July 2003. Translated from Russi= an by=20 Marian Bassett.
“Narodnaya Volna” [The People= 217;s Radio Station],=20 once the only listening option for Russian immigrants in the northeast, is = faced=20 with new competition. To fight back, the station increased its airtime and = began=20 diversifying its programming. Reporter Leah Moses sits down with the statio= n’s=20 owner for a glimpse inside the complex struggle to hang on to its opinionat= ed=20 audience.=20MORE.= =20

Outreach to female garment workers met with=20 difficulties by Liang Wing-yin,=20World Journal, 23 July 2003. Translated from Chinese= by=20 Connie Kong.
Many Fujianese women neglect routine health che= ck=20 ups, so a community center in New York decided to take action. They hired a= =20 Fujianese-speaking staff member to conduct outreach campaigns in garment=20 factories and sign up workers for free health exams. But the campaign has b= een=20 met with resistance from factory owners, and the women themselves.=20MORE.= =20

Hard times for Irish students by=20 Georgina Brennan, Irish Voice, 22 July 2003. E= nglish=20 language.
Summer season brings thousands of Irish students t= o New=20 York on J-1 visas, with hopes to earn money and have new experiences. But w= ith=20 the economy in the doldrums most are jobless and depressed. For many studen= ts,=20 spending the summer back in Ireland is beginning to look like a better opti= on.=20 MORE.=20

Black churches develop congregations, corporations by Jamal E. Watson, Amsterdam News, 30=20 July 2003. English language.
At the time it was considered= =20 unprecedented, perhaps even revolutionary. But for the religious community,= it=20 was a last-minute effort to rehabilitate the communities where their church= es=20 and mosques were located. As developers halted projects in inner-city=20 neighborhoods, Black churches and mosques did something that took everyone = by=20 surprise: they began to build.=20MORE.= =20

BRIEFS:
From=20 Warsaw to the U.S. via Tijuana and Montreal by Wojciech T. Mlecz= ko,=20 Nowy Dziennik / Polish Daily News, 18 July 200= 3.=20 Translated from Polish by Anna Milewska.

Demand for trial of imam who fleeced mosque, Weekly Thikana, 25 July 2003.= =20 Translated from Bangla by Moinuddin Naser.

Bill introduced to regulate wire transfer agencies; transpa= rent=20 accounts for remittances by Enrique Soria,= =20El Diario / La Prensa, 22 July 2003. Translated from= =20 Spanish by Matthew T. Corey.

State Assembly approves bill to punish immigration=20 charlatans, La Tribun= a=20 Hispana, 23 July 2003. Translated from Spanish by Nicole Lisa.=20

EDITORIALS:
= A=20 first-hand account of the City Hall assassination of James Davis= by=20 Donna Lamb, Caribbean Life, 29 July 2003. Engl= ish=20 language.
I sat quietly at the press table in the front of t= he=20 City Council chamber, waiting for the meeting to begin. Instead, all hell b= roke=20 loose. When it was finally over, it dawned on me that not only had I taken = the=20 last photo of Councilmember Davis alive, I stood next to the man who killed= him=20 while doing so!=20MORE.=

--MIMEStream=_0+45220_43357644457526_37157265852-- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Film Censorship in Post-Colonial India India's film censorship machinery and its agenda has been criticised for being caught in a colonial past. But in reality, the censorship regime in India presents a problematic engagement between the colonial past and the post-colonial present that supersedes any 'Victorian' legacy. The need is to examine how far the 'present' departs from the 'past' and to what extent the 'past' still resides in the 'present'. While modes of content control characteristic of colonial times still exist, these too are constantly being manipulated in response to emerging modes of address - seeming to create a facade of change. Someswar Bhowmik On March 20, 2003, the Central Board of Film Certification (CBFC) refused to issue certificate to 'Aakrosh' (Cry of Anguish), a 25-minute documentary on Gujarat's riot victims. The reason: "The film depicts violence and reminds the people about the Gujarat riot last year. It shows the government and the police in a bad light. The overall impact of the film is negative as it leads to communal hatred among the communities=8A Hence the Board has decided to refuse a certificate to the film" ('Riot film too hot for Censors', The Telegraph, March 21, 2003). On June 6, 2002, the CBFC demanded several deletions from the anti-war, anti-nuclear documentary film 'Jung Aur Aman' (War and Peace, 148 minutes) made by Anand Patwardhan, as the condition for granting censor certificate. It is another matter that the Bombay High Court has recently directed the CBFC to issue censor certificate to the Patwardhan film without any alteration ('No cuts in anti-nuke film: Bombay HC', The Times of India, April 26, 2003). More significant is the fact that the 'Jung aur Aman' episode occurred when Vijay Anand, himself a filmmaker and considered to be a liberal person, was the chairperson of CBFC and the 'Aakrosh' episode came up during the tenure of Arvind Trivedi, the actor-turned-politician, who is a social conservative by his own admission. Such convergence of political judgment from persons with divergent social outlook constitutes the essence of the film censorship regime in post-independence India. Yet, the popular perception of the film censorship machinery is that of 'moral police'. In fact, post-independence, the polemics on Indian film censorship have generally revolved round sleaze, sensuality, sexuality, nudity and permissiveness. As recently as in 2002, Vijay Anand was on record saying, "Why do you think we have so much vulgarity, songs, dances, pelvic thrusts, bathtub fantasies and dream sequences - because you won't allow a simple kiss"(Interview of Vijay Anand, India Today, August 5, 2002). To him, the Indian Cinematograph Act 1952 - the Bible of film censorship in India - is crammed with too much baggage of the past. In fact, he was hurtling down the fast track of reform during his 10 months in office and "wanted to present a new act in the parliament that would be relevant for the next 50 years". That was however not to be as he was unceremoniously deposed in July 2002. It is on such occasions that fingers are pointed to a palpable legacy of 'Victorian' morality, prudishness and social conservatism. Critics bemoan that India's film censorship machinery being, to a large extent, an inheritance from her colonial period, some of its agenda, too, are an unwarranted spillover from that era. This perception, however apparently valid, results from an uncritical reading of this important social phenomenon. A simple abolition of the 'Victorian' legacy from our film censorship legislation won't in itself create a total disjunction between the 'past' and the 'present'. The Indian film censorship regime reflects a highly problematic engagement between the colonial past and the post-colonial present that goes much beyond this 'Victorian' legacy. A better understanding of this problem demands a critical examination of these two contiguous eras, defined by their respective social, political and cultural parameters. One needs to examine how far the 'present' is a departure from the 'past', and also to what extent the 'past' resides in the 'present'. In the context of film censorship in India, neither the 'past' nor the 'present' is an autonomous entity. They have forged an interesting relationship. In this negotiation, the set of what(s), how(s) and why(s), or simply the 'baggage', has also accomplished a journey much more complex than a simple conjunctive or disjunctive progression from one era to another. Pursuing this project would land us in the terrain of post-colonialism. While post-colonialism acknowledges both a temporal and a structural shift, it also recognises an intersection between continuity and change. India's film censorship regime is a remarkable site of this phenomenon. On the one hand, the modes of content control characteristic to the colonial film censorship regime are very much with us today. On the other, its operational elements are going through continuous manipulation in response to emerging modes of address, creating a fa=E7ade of change. My focus in this essay would be to underline the formative elements during the negotiation between the 'past' and the 'present'. Early Beginnings Censorship legislation was introduced in India at a time (1918) when her British rulers were determined that cinema should serve, unflinchingly, their colonial interests. There was no indigenous film industry at that time and the canons of censorship targeted films imported from the west, especially the US. The British wanted these films to create a rosy picture about the west and the western people's intentions in the colonies. The Regional Censor Boards, constituted in 1920 and each one technically autonomous, had before them detailed guidelines regarding 'sensitive issues', 'objectionable subjects' and 'forbidden scenes' in 'foreign' films - a euphemism for films from the US. The administration, however, was not immune to the possibility of an Indian film industry emerging at some point of time and causing them more worries. To negotiate such an eventuality each of the Regional Censor Boards in Bombay, Calcutta, Madras, Rangoon and Lahore had been placed under the tutelage of the respective city police commissioners. Moreover, as an indigenous film industry began to show signs of burgeoning by the mid-1920s, the bureaucracy began to align themselves more with the censorship decisions and make their presence felt in major censorship matters, through the exercise of executive prerogatives provided for in the Indian Cinematograph Act 1918. The idea was twofold: to bully the boards into submission, and subjugate the unhindered development of theme and content within the fledgling film industry [Vasudev 1978; Baskaran 1981]. After some time, the frequency of bureaucratic interventions decreased, only because the film censorship system by then had become sufficiently subservient to the will of the government. To keep matters totally under bureaucratic control, the censorship decisions were put beyond judicial scrutiny, that is, made non-justiciable. The author's research [Bhowmik 1992] on film censorship in pre-independence India has evinced three basic parameters: (a) to deny the Indian audience any access to communist or socialist ideals ('propaganda' in administrative language) reflected in the Soviet cinema; (b) to ensure that the spirit of freedom and independence did not reach the audience of a colonised country regularly through the American films; and (c) to prevent the crystallisation of nationalist paradigm in the Indian cinema. It is however significant that the British rulers chose to foreground "the safety of the audience and the prevention of degrading or moral performances" in order to camouflage their real, that is political, intentions. There was certainly no need for the rulers of independent India to carry forward this legacy. But they surprised everybody by choosing to retain the system of film censorship in the post-colonial era. As it later transpired, it was essentially an appropriation for an eventual reconstruction. There was no change, let alone improvement, in the 'official' perception about the status of the film medium. It was however further complicated by the enunciation of a 'political' perception, which was totally different from the one that emerged in the colonial era. The new-found rhetoric about rationality, freedom, justice, right, modernism, progress and development flaunted by the national(ist) leaders of India with gay abandon, were not applicable to the film censorship machinery. Cinema remained equally vulnerable to administrative pressures and susceptible to the politicians' malice in the new era. However, the manner in which these negative perceptions were enunciated was far removed from that prevalent during the colonial era. If the former bore the sure stamp of coercion, or even of out and out repression, an assured swiftness and deft manoeuvrability characterised the latter. By 1952, the post-colonial infrastructure for film censorship was finalised. It followed a series of debates, moves and counter-moves regarding a possible reorientation of the system of film censorship in the post-independence era. Since the days of the interim government (1945-47), the film trade had begun to express itself strongly in favour of a centralised system of film censorship, ostensibly with a view to weeding out regional differences in judgments. It was a period when the industry was increasingly coming under the sway of the 'independent' producers. They often had access to dubious sources of funds and indulged in speculative investment with an eye on the fast buck. They found their peers in the distribution and exhibition sectors also. They all undertook speculative activities often with utter disregard for normal laws of market transactions. They eventually forced most of the established/conventional operators out of business, throwing the trade into complete chaos and disarray, and also vitiating the atmosphere of the industry. Most of the films, made under the tutelage of the 'independent' producers, were stuffed with ingredients they thought would have 'mass' appeal. They therefore, pleaded for 'slight' indulgence from the censors in conformity with the spirit of freedom permeating the country. And their demand for a centralised censor board was a ploy to secure the minimisation of possible obstacles that their films might have to confront. They further demanded that such a board should not be "subject to revision by the provincial government unless for reasons of grave danger to public security". Defining Standards in a New Age The majority of the emerging leadership of new India was however against the idea of treating film 'entertainment' with lenience. They associated it with harmful western influence that needed to be purged, or at least checked. Their actions and utterances gave enough indications that the sanctity of the principles of morality and behaviour "as laid down by our forefathers" would be repeatedly invoked in matters relating to the exhibition of films in this country after independence. But there was an even more significant pointer to the possible use of censorship machinery in the post-colonial era. The bureaucracy was all for the adoption of a stricter code censorship. They complained of 'too much frivolity' in Indian films of the period and demanded their adherence to a more rigorous standard of moral to justify their claim as a medium of entertainment and education. Several meetings were held between the bureaucracy and the representatives of the industry. They discussed methods to be adopted with a view to minimising the difficulties that might be caused to the trade. While both parties agreed that an improvement in the moral and ethical standards in films was indeed a priority, divergence arose over the manner of execution and method of accomplishment. The industry advocated an immediate overhauling of the structures and a change in the philosophy of film censorship as well. But the entente of the political leaders and the bureaucracy was in no mood to oblige them and bid its own time. On August 29, 1949, the government of India appointed a film enquiry committee under the chairmanship of S K Patil, a member of the constituent assembly. The directives before the committee were: (a) to examine the growth and organisation of the film industry in India, and to indicate the lines on which further development should be directed, and (b) to examine what measure should be adopted to enable films in India to develop into an effective instrument for promotion of national culture, education and healthy entertainment. While most people expected the committee to come down heavily upon the industry, their report (1951) took a surprisingly condescending attitude despite all-round clamour for a stricter control. The committee were in fact all praise for the achievements of "an industry which has grown to such proportions on its own, without either state support or patronage and in the face of foreign competition, on terms which were certainly not much to its advantage". The committee also expressed confidence in "the competence of the industry itself to regulate and control". These were all part of a policy of tactical appeasement. It also included the abolition of the functional autonomy of the regional censor boards of the pre-independence era. In 1951 they were brought under the unified command of a Central Board of Film Censors.1 Centralisation of film censorship was a direct affront to the spirit of federalism enshrined in the Indian Constitution of 1950. But the leaders of independent India, being more committed to building a unitary state structure than creating a genuinely federal system, unveiled a centralised regime. Like their predecessors, they were also keen that cinema should serve their broad political objectives, which involved projects for democracy, citizenship and nationalism. But, unlike the colonial administration, they preferred a uniform code of control to be formulated by the central bureaucracy, and exercised by the CBFC. The reconstituted regional censor boards, subordinate to the CBFC and with considerably reduced power, were but an insignificant concession to the concept of federalism. Such machinations of the government worked brilliantly as the industry-people were lulled into complacence. They were expecting further concessions when in July 1952 the Indian Cinematograph Act 1952 was slapped on them. The new legislation, repealing the Indian Cinematograph Act 1918, was far more elaborate as well as explicit than its predecessor. The Censorship Rules of 1953 framed under the aegis of the new act not only bore a distinct similarity to those drafted during the colonial period, but also retained as much bureaucratic stranglehold on the censorship regime. While the inherent philosophy of film censorship thus remained intact, there was a palpable shift in emphasis: Indian films were made the prime target. This was the result of a common negative perception, fostered by the state, the media and the ordinary citizen. From then onward, the film censorship regime in India began to acquire myriad ramifications, frequently transcending the manifestation of state power. Even the ostensible provision for judicial scrutiny of censorship decisions provided it with a fourth dimension, often to the detriment of the medium. Cultural Formation in Post-Colonial India Why did indigenous cinema became so vulnerable in the post-colonial period? Of course one can attribute this, as Ravi Vasudevan (2001) has done, to the lack of modernist outlook of our political elite. He suggests that this phenomenon compelled cinema to lag behind in the overall formation of national cultural institutions, like the National Gallery of Modern Art, the Lalit Kala Akademi, the Sangeet Natak Akademi or the Sahitya Akademi. But this, I feel, is only a part of the whole story. The immediate aftermath of India's independence witnessed the cementing of the alliance forged between the political leadership and the institutional legacies of colonialism, especially the civil bureaucracy and the police - a process that began during the interim government (1945-47) and persisted through the dominion period (1947-1950). This not only ensured the continuation of the British India's unitary state system but also facilitated internalisation of authoritarian methods by the Indian politicians in power on the pretext of better governance. At that time it did not attract much public criticism, owing to the prevalent political climate. India earned her independence after a sequence of catastrophic events lasting almost a decade - second world war (1939-45), communal riots (1946-47), the partition (1947) and the dispute over the accession of Kashmir to India (1948). The adverse socio-economic impact of the world war, the human cost of the riots, the political implications of territorial consolidation after a bloody partition and the complex military engagement in Kashmir together with its diplomatic fallout had a traumatic effect on the infant nation. In this situation the Indian rulers could easily dispense with certain crucial components of classical democracy on the pretext of discipline, stability and social progress. The post-colonial Indian society and polity also witnessed the emergence of what Partha Chatterjee (1997) has termed as a 'political society' to encompass the forms of mobilisation around collective identities.2 'Political society' is composed of parties, movements and non-party political formations. On the one hand, such formations constantly superseded, or sometimes usurped, the autonomous role of the individual in the society. On the other, they came in constant conflict with the norms, institutions, democratic rights and entitlements so characteristic of a liberal civil society. In any resolution of crisis, the logic of reason was constrained by the logic of numbers. The legacy of mass movement during the pre-independence days completely overwhelmed the process of social engineering in the post-colonial Indian society. The leaders of independent India sought to live up to the pressure of mass aspiration by propagating a complex fabric of ideological concepts like nation state, nationalism, modernity and progress as being the crucial element of a post-colonial social formation. They were perceived as facilitators of a homogeneous post-colonial society, to be groomed on the basis of democracy as its political ideology and planned development as its economic agenda. But this drive towards homogeneity floundered around the choice of a cultural policy. Ambiguity between rationality and scientific temperament on the one hand, and religious orthodoxy and traditionalism on the other completely disoriented the cultural formation in post-colonial India. Moreover, there was hardly any significant effort to encourage the plurality and diversity of cultural practices. True to this principle, the institutions of cultural formation were all based in New Delhi, guided by unitary policies and practices. Cinema epitomised this confusing, problem-ridden scenario. Perhaps more so because of its technological nature in contrast to the more conventional art forms. The burden of its stigmatised existence, a legacy of the colonial period, further problematised its cause. The post-colonial Indian society condemned cinema to an ambiguous position, jeopardising its autonomous journey and search for homogeneity. There were diverse pulls and pressures on this medium from different quarters. Since the 1950s, an elaborate scenario emerged around the so-called pan-Indian Hindi cinema, advocating 'entertainment' under the tutelage of speculative investors. Encouraged by its so-called pre-eminence as the vehicle of 'official' language, it began to hog the limelight, often in a manner disproportionate to its share of output. Even the adamant regionalism of the south Indian states reconciled itself to the regular production of Hindi-remakes of successful local language films for an all-India market. This cinema was characterised by a pseudo-modernist melodramatic structure, which eventually became the model for regional commercial cinema also. But the influence of cinema literacy in the more enlightened sector of the society gave rise to a different brand of film culture. Cinema was acknowledged as a serious form of expression, with a resonant voice, discursive text and responsive audience. Thus evolved a modernist paradigm for cinema, with an emphasis on realism. Some people assigned a proactive, developmental role to cinema, preferring factual construction, analytical paradigm and direct address. Their demand was for documentary cinema. Against these proponents were the antagonists of cinema, who weighed this medium with jaundiced looks, treating it as harmful for the society. And above them all was the sate, which wanted cinema to foster a culture of responsible citizenship.3 While some of these articulations were indeed very well structured, emphatic and organised, the majority was rather intermittent, haphazard, and scattered over speeches, leaflets, public communications, private discussions and even stray remarks. Yet, their summation produced a synergy, ultimately turning into a substantial discourse around the post-colonial Indian cinema. Within this discourse, the non-official, public voice overshadowed the official voice of the sate. As a result, the malice and apathy exhibited by the political elite were more than offset by a remarkable upswing in the popularity of cinema. There was however an exception to this general pattern of discourse around cinema in the post-colonial India. And that involved film censorship. In this area, the official voice of the state was more assertive than the public voice. The appropriation of the film censorship machinery of the pre-independence days is a sure manifestation of this assertiveness. It is significant that the basic framework for this machinery was finalised even before parliamentary democracy started functioning properly in independent India. The first general elections, conducted on the basis of universal adult franchise, were held between October 25, 1951 and February 24, 1952. The first session of the newly constituted Indian parliament could not have been convened before March 1952. The Indian Cinematograph Act 1952 had received presidential assent on March 21, 1952 and came into force with effect from July 12, 1952. Remarkably, not only did the citizenry not resent the continuation of film censorship in a post-colonial democratic India, but they also felt secure in this arrangement. The society by and large accepted the state-projection of this arrangement as the best method for neutralising the pulls and pressures that the post-colonial Indian cinema was being subjected to. Perhaps we can even suggest, following Noel Burch (1973), that the censorship regime offered them a mechanism by which to defend themselves against cinema's supposed attack on their privacy, settled habits and thoughts. Even such a spirited champion of the right to freedom of expression as Khwaja Ahmed Abbas4 had been a victim of this manipulation. Writing in the July 1963 issue of the monthly magazine Seminar, he had this to offer: Even if we believe that a novelist or a painter or a musician should be free to write, paint and compose music without the interference of the state machinery, I doubt if anyone will advocate the same freedom to be extended to the commercial exploitation of a powerful medium of expression and entertainment like cinema. One can imagine the results if an unbridled commercial cinema is allowed to cater to the lowest common denominator of popular taste, especially in a country which, after two centuries of political and cultural domination, is still suffering from a confusion and debasement of cultural values. Freedom of expression cannot, and should not, be interpreted as a licence for the cinemagnates to make money by pandering to and thereby propagating, shoddy and vulgar taste. Likewise, different interest groups discovered elements of merit or virtue within the censorship machinery for their respective constituencies. The state, on its part, started acting as an arbiter, and also a manipulator, of popular perception about cinema. This in itself was a paradigm shift. While film censorship in the colonial era represented a unidirectional act of coercion devised by the state, post-independence it was quite perceptibly transformed into a more diversified, and multilateral, power-relation. It began to revolve round an antagonism between the limits of freedom of expression aspired by a technological medium driven by modernism and the exercise of power defined by class, sector or group perceptions and interests. Seen from the perspective of the state, this exercise of power started manifesting a particular brand of teleology couched in legal and administrative jargon. The citizenry on the other hand participated in this exercise of power armed with a different brand of teleology full of value-loaded moral or ethical terms. The former unfolded in January 1951, when the then minister of Information and Broadcasting, R B Diwakar, characterised the newly formed Central Board of Film Censorship as a "dignified effort to model an effective medium of healthy entertainment, national culture and mass education" [Hunnings 1967:228]. A public petition, presented in 1954 to then prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru, urging him to curb the evil influence of films, epitomises the latter. 13,000 women, mostly housewives, signed it. It evoked an ambivalent response from the influential prime minister. While he emphasised the role of cinema as a vehicle of modernism, he also advocated some amount of social control to ward off its bad effect [Vasudev 1978:107]. But the outcome is not so important in this context as its import. The very fact that the prime minister chose to respond to ordinary citizens on this issue was in itself a new development. It not only brought the citizenry within the domain of film censorship but also legitimised their exercise of power. Before independence, the colonial administration simply denied so much space to their Indian subjects. Film censorship regime in post-colonial India thus turned out to be not quite an arrangement through which the state imposed repression overriding popular dissent. It rather came to reflect certain ideological compromises reached between social forces in an epoch of transition. It was indicative of the relative power and authority of different segments of the society, including the members of the state machinery. More importantly, it gave rise to a terrain for the play of power that would start creating and recreating rules, evolving parameters of debate, categories and subjects. In other words, it inaugurated a discourse of censorship, reconciling its apparently incongruous cohabitation with the constitutionally sanctioned right to freedom of speech and expression by teleological arguments. Once such arguments began to emerge, it created opportunities for camouflaging the political essence of film censorship in post-colonial India. In course of time, the exercise of power around film censorship has acquired a broader spectrum and many more articulations than was the case before independence. But the state, the media, the citizenry and even the judiciary go on highlighting its 'moral' parameters. The CBFC's letter to the makers of 'Aakrosh' epitomises the perspective of the state in this respect. It reads like a moral statement although one would hardly miss its political intent. It is also no accident that the media hype and public debates that raged around the suitability of films like 'Fire', 'Kama Sutra', 'Bandit Queen', 'Queen Elizabeth' for the 'Indian' audience revolved round 'moral' issues and shied away from substantial questions of gender or sexual politics. And the essence of the judicial perception was outlined in a landmark Supreme Court judgment (1970) vindicating the justification and reasonable of film censorship in India [Bhowmik 2002]. It all appears like a collective endeavour. Yet, political statements continue to be made around film censorship. Only these have become much more subtle, sophisticated and, contrary to popular perception, widespread. The state nowadays promotes jingoist feature films like 'Roja', 'Gadar', 'Border' or 'Sarfarosh', often inciting audiences enough to shout anti-Pakistan slogan. But the maker of the documentary 'Jung aur Aman' has to seek judicial intervention against the CBFC for preaching a rational, pacifist approach. The state allows 'Satya', which depicts indiscriminate killing of 'gangsters' at the hands of police. Yet a documentary like 'Aakrosh' is refused certificate for "depicting violence"! All the mainstream films mentioned above have subsequently thrived with media and popular support. Not that these are recent developments. Way back in 1964, Chetan Anand made a jingoist film 'Haqeeqat', castigating the Chinese. This was subsequent to the Sino-Indian border conflict. The film received unprecedented state patronage and popular/media support. In 1971 Satyajit Ray had made a documentary 'Sikkim', on the life and culture of then independent Himalayan kingdom. But after the kingdom was annexed to India in 1976, the film fell foul of the official version about the new possession and was never cleared for public exhibition thereafter. It hardly caused any ripple. So, political manipulation of film censorship encompasses not simply refusal/withholding of censor certificate to 'objectionable' film(s), but deliberate promotion of 'favourable' films. And as is evident from the above, such actions have been perpetrated by successive regimes irrespective of their ideological bias, to be supplemented by popular/media support or apathy. Significantly, the discourse of film censorship nowadays transcends the conventional framework of monitoring and control even. We have seen how the shooting of 'Water' was aborted through realpolitik for allegedly trying to portray 'Indian' women in a 'derogatory' manner. Or take the controversy surrounding 'Ek Choti Si Love Story'. Its heroine wanted the film to be withdrawn from public exhibition, invoking her right to privacy. She was wary of the degree of exposure indulged in by her body-double in the film. The matter was finally settled in court, but not before it degenerated into an unabashed exhibition of political clout by the concerned parties. It is high time that we woke up to the different manifestations of the political manipulation of film censorship in India. Notes 1 This nomenclature was changed to Central Board of Film Certification in 1983, without any qualitative change in the function and responsibility of this body. 2 This terminology superseded Chatterjee's earlier characterisation (1992) of the post-colonial social formation in India as a "democratic community that(is) based neither on the principles of hierarchy nor on those of bourgeois equality". 3 The well known film personality Marie Seton came to India in the late-1950s, at the behest of both the government of India and the UNESCO, to advise on film appreciation. She produced two monographs [Seton 1963, 1964]. 4 Khwaja Ahmed Abbas is the only person so far to have challenged the constitutional validity of film censorship in 1970. References Baskaran, S Theodor (1981): The Message Bearers: the Nationalist Politics and the Entertainment Media in South India 1880-1945, Cre A, Madras,. Bhowmik, Someswar (1992): A Medium under Siege: Film Censorship in Pre-independence India, PhD dissertation, Jadavpur University, Kolkata. - (2002): 'Politics of Film Censorship: Limits of Tolerance', Economic and Political Weekly, Mumbai, August 31-September 6. Burch, Noel (1973): Theory of Film Practice, Praeger, New York. Chatterjee, Partha (1992): The Nation and Its Fragments, Princeton University Press, Princeton. - (1997): 'Beyond the Nation? Or within?', Economic and Political Weekly, Mumbai, January 4-11. GoI (1951): Report of the Film Enquiry Committee, Ministry of Information and Broadcasting, New Delhi. Hunnings, Neville March (1967): Film Censors and the Law, George Allen and Unwin, London. Seton, Marie (1963): Film Appreciation: the Art of Five Directors, National Council of Educational Research and Training, New Delhi. - (1964): Film as an Art and Film Appreciation, National Council of Educational Research and Training, New Delhi. Vasudev, Aruna (1978): Liberty and Licence in the Indian Cinema, Vikash Publishing House, New Delhi. Vasudevan, Ravi S (2001): 'An Imperfect Public: Cinema and Citizenship in the 'Third World'' in The Public Domain, Sarai Reader #1, Sarai for the Centre for the Study of Developing Societies, Delhi and The Society for Old and New Media, Amsterdam. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: to=20 the Mahabharata and the Ramayana, as evidenced by the laborious efforts at= =20 reconstructing the chronology of the events depicted in the epics and turni= ng=20 the principal characters into live historical figures who were the Moses,= =20 Abraham, Isaac, and Christ of Hinduism, to the onslaught on the generally= =20 accepted theory of an Aryan migration to India ? an onslaught first headed,= =20 it is no accident, by an Indian aerospace engineer, N S Rajaram, who is=20 described as valiantly having temporarily set aside his career in the=20 interest of exposing, the largest ??hoax?? in human history ? the=20 Hindutvavadis have signified their attachment to historical discourses. Historical discourses are preeminently the discourses of the nation, and th= e=20 interest, which has something in common with the historical archive, making= =20 it intrinsically hospitable to the modernist sensibility of the historian, = is=20 poised to become the ground on which the advocates of Hindutva will stage= =20 their revisionist histories. Whether cyberspace is ??Republican?? is a matt= er=20 on which we can defer judgment, but it is poised, alarmingly, to become a= =20 Hindutva domain, considering that there are scarcely any web sites which=20 offer competing narratives. Dharmakshetre, Kurukshetre (on the field of dharma, righteousness; on the= =20 field of the Kurus), says the Bhagavad Gita in its opening line, but today= =20 this might well be: dharmakshetre, cyberkshetre. If the computer scientist-historian types who inhabit Silicon Valley, and= =20 their diasporic brethren, have it their way, Hinduism will become that very= =20 ??world historical religion?? they have craved to see, and Hindutva history= =20 will be the most tangible product of the wave of globalisation over which= =20 they preside from their diasporic vantagepoint. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 22 18:01:32 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: liamsburg, illegal apartments in New York come in a range of sizes and loca= tions. Some believe that the city Buildings Department is too lax in regula= ting this issue, while others argue: Where would people live if illegal apa= rtments didn't exist? MORE.=20 BRIEFS: Sikh cab driver was called "bin Laden," and then beaten along with his wife= and cousin by "three Irish fellows" by Ray O'Hanlon, Irish Echo, 12 August= 2003. English language.=20 Lack of cultural awareness nixes quality education; call for more teacher s= ensitivity by Samantha Yearwood, Caribbean Life, 5 August 2003. English lan= guage.=20 Crime on the border of Queens and Brooklyn by Maruxa Rela=F1o, Hoy, 6 Augus= t 2003. Translated from Spanish by Nicole Lisa.=20 EDITORIALS: "Russian" immigrants in search of a communal identity by Leah Moses, Forwar= d, 8 August 2003. English language.=20 At the first annual "Russian Heritage Week," hosted by Mayor Bloomberg in J= une, the best and brightest of our community were paraded around as modern-= day immigrant success stories. No longer the stereotypes of petty businessm= en from Brighton Beach, brutal mobsters and gorgeous blondes of easy virtue= , it seems our community finally made it in America. We were officially bap= tized as Russian-the only problem is, that is not who we are. MORE. Bush is strong, the press is weak by Jorge Ramos, El Diario / La Prensa, 7 = August 2003. Translated from Spanish by Hirsh Sawhney.=20 The events of September 11 have given Bush immunity in the eyes of the pres= s and the people of the United States. But the question is, how much longer= will this immunity last? MORE. --MIMEStream=_0+196524_54432429524549_3483279102 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This Week's Voices That Must Be Heard
By IPA-New York= , a=20 sponsored project of the Independent Press Association
Edition 78: 14 August 2003.

NEWS= =20 ITEMS:
Will a bubble burst in Bronx real estate? by Jor= dan=20 Moss, Norwood News, 27 August 2003. English la= nguage.=20
On June 25, the University Neighborhood Housing Program in N= orth=20 Fordham, celebrated its 20th anniversary in helping community groups purcha= se=20 residential apartment buildings. But the mood wasn=92t all celebratory, as = the=20 nonprofit took the occasion to issue a warning about a serious vulnerabilit= y in=20 the borough's housing market.=20MORE.=

Open a road for Chinatown=92s economy: Resid= ents=20 protest Park Row=92s closure since Sept. 11= by=20 Wing-hong Yip, China Press, 1 August 2003. Tra= nslated=20 from Chinese by Connie Kong.
The aftermath of September 11 f= orced=20 the city to close many streets in Chinatown. Since then, all but one=20 street=97which links Chinatown to City Hall=97have reopened. Now, a group o= f=20 residents are fighting to have this street, which is vital to Chinatown=92s= =20 fragile economy, reopened.=20MORE.=

I refuse to be a mouthpiece for anti-Pakista= ni=20 dialogue, = India Weekly - USA, 10 August 2003. English language= .=20
Indian filmmakers have produced dozens of war and terrorism = films=20 in which Pakistan is always the enemy. But in an uncharacteristically aggre= ssive=20 move, one of the biggest Bollywood stars has taken a stance against this=20 practice. "I told Sharma to clean out the anti-Pakistani dialogues or else = I'd=20 quit," he said.=20MORE.=

Squatting in a basement: Population boom in = the =9190s=20 led to an explosion in illegal rentals, Nowy Dziennik / Polish Daily= =20 News, 7 August 2003. Translated from Polish by Ania Milewska.=20
From basements in Queens, to closets in Chinatown and spacio= us=20 lofts in Williamsburg, illegal apartments in New York come in a range of si= zes=20 and locations. Some believe that the city Buildings Department is too lax i= n=20 regulating this issue, while others argue: Where would people live if illeg= al=20 apartments didn=92t exist?=20MORE.=

BRIEFS:
Sikh cab driver was called =93bin Laden,=94 and then beaten= along with=20 his wife and cousin by =93three Irish fellows=94 by Ray O'Hanlon= ,=20Irish Echo, 12 August 2003. English language.=20

Lack of cultural awareness nixes quality edu= cation;=20 call for more teacher sensitivity by Samant= ha=20 Yearwood, Caribbean Life, 5 August 2003. Engli= sh=20 language.

Crime on the border of Queens and=20 Brooklyn by Maruxa Rela=F1o,=20Hoy, 6 August 2003. Translated from Spanish by Nicol= e Lisa.=20

EDITORIALS:
=93Russian=94 immigrants in search of a communal identity=20 by Leah Moses, Forward, 8 August 2003. English= =20 language.
At the first annual "Russian Heritage Week," hoste= d by=20 Mayor Bloomberg in June, the best and brightest of our community were parad= ed=20 around as modern-day immigrant success stories. No longer the stereotypes o= f=20 petty businessmen from Brighton Beach, brutal mobsters and gorgeous blondes= of=20 easy virtue, it seems our community finally made it in America. We were=20 officially baptized as Russian=97the only problem is, that is not who we ar= e.=20MORE.=

Bush is strong, the press is weak by Jorge Ramos, El Diario / La Prensa= ,=20 7 August 2003. Translated from Spanish by Hirsh Sawhney.
The= =20 events of September 11 have given Bush immunity in the eyes of the press an= d the=20 people of the United States. But the question is, how much longer will this= =20 immunity last?=20MORE.= --MIMEStream=_0+196524_54432429524549_3483279102-- From naziaerum at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 15:08:05 2008 From: naziaerum at gmail.com (nazia erum) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 15:08:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Tum Apni Job Chodd Rahe Ho Purdafash Ke Liye?" Message-ID: Monday, December 31, 2007 "Tum Apni Job Chodd Rahe Ho Purdafash Ke Liye?"www.purdafash.blogspot.com Was it the question or tone or stare that made me re-consider the most significant decision of my life. Here I was, just off my flight from overseas, convinced that Purdafash was where my heart and future lay rather than the placement from IIM Calcutta. I had spent the past couple of months convincing complete strangers that Purdafash was a sound investment. And now my dad needed the second round of convincing. Settling down with him to an uncomfortable silence, I wondered what provoked such an outraged question from the one person closest to me. I remembered seeing a lady telling her toddler, *"Sadak pe mat bhago beta, gir jaoge."*(Don't run on the road son, you will fall)… And I mentally added, *"Don't run even if you want to run, even if you believe that you can run; for what IF you fall?" * Isn't that what we are teaching daily to our loved ones? Driving them to the right path, the tested path… for what if they fall and get hurt? But do we stop and consider if the attempt is more important than the failure? Does failing make me a failure? Isn't living different than existing? Would I be a winner if I worked in an MNC from 8 to 8? Would it make me socially more respectable if I was to wear a perfectly tailored suit and spent my day in an air-conditioned office doing something I have no heart in?? I was screaming inside. Irrespective of what is going to happen, the child in me today wants to run. He wants to fly, he wants to play and play like there is no tomorrow! And on this note started the Purdafash journey… a journey which has till date frustrated me, exhilarated me, disappointed me and yet has given me a sense of purpose in a way that nothing had till now. Most importantly it has taught me more in a couple of months than two years of MBA did. The journey has had its high points- convincing the angel investor to put in his money, building a team that shared my dream, getting tremendous public support, getting unheard of traffic for an alpha release and finally the rush of doing something of my own. And of course the low points- waiting for the damned bureaucracy to move its feet while getting the company incorporated, waiting for all the people who promised action but did not deliver to actually do something good, staying up till 6.30 in the morning trying to soothe frayed tempers. And I thought the real battles begin once the product is launched!! As I sit down today looking back at an eventful year that has been and looking forward to a year that could be the most defining one of my life, the following words by* *Bob Moawad come to my mind: *"The best day of your life is the one on which you decide your life is your own. No apologies or excuses. No one to lean on, rely on, or blame. The gift is yours - it is an amazing journey - and you alone are responsible for the quality of it. This is the day your life really begins." * *So bring it on 2008, I am ready for my life to begin!!* - Areeb Khan CEO, Purdafash Dot Com www.purdafash.com -- Nazia Erum "The cardinal premise of all journalism . . . is that a cat may look at a king." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20080101/59e2f782/attachment.html From atreyee.m at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 12:23:56 2008 From: atreyee.m at gmail.com (atreyee majumder) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 12:23:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] on dynastic feuds on the other side Message-ID: <1944bc230801012253p508fa7b5pb8968ecb150b6d0b@mail.gmail.com> As another chapter of dynastic feuds seem to be unfurling over succession battles within the PPP, Bhutto chieftain openly expresses resentment at the nineteen-year-old Oxford student, Bilwal's crowning. I thought these were interesting reads: http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,,2233955,00.html http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080101.wpakistan02/BNStory/International/home Further, random curiosity about the Bhutto clan took me here A very promising Fatima, daughter of Murtaza Bhutto, Benazir's assassinated brother seems to have been a vociferous critic too. Cheers Atreyee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20080102/89b065ca/attachment.html From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 17:49:47 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 17:49:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ek theee Missis Bhutto Message-ID: <47e122a70801020419h13c265dcj629fc41d1ce2d19b@mail.gmail.com> please press the blog to see and read... with love and peace to all -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From taraprakash at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 03:11:29 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 16:41:29 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Visa God Message-ID: <00d401c84bf5$e9fb2440$0302a8c0@taraprakash> Divine Intervention? Indians Seek Help From the 'Visa God'. By Vauhini Vara. HYDERABAD, India -- Lord Balaji is one of the most-worshiped local incarnations of the Hindu Lord Vishnu. His adherents flock to his many temples to pray for things like happiness, prosperity and fertility. Lately, the deity has grown particularly popular at the once-quiet Chilkur Balaji temple here, where he goes by a new nickname: the Visa God. The temple draws 100,000 visitors a week, many of whom come to pray to Lord Balaji for visas to travel or move to the U.S. and other Western countries. Mohanty Dolagobinda is one of the Visa God's believers. Three years ago, a U.S. consulting company applied for a visa on his behalf. It was rejected. When the company tried again the following year, Mr. Dolagobinda's friends told him to visit the Chilkur Balaji temple ahead of his interview at the U.S. consulate. Weeks later, he sailed through the interview. I've never heard of anyone who's gone to the temple whose visa got rejected," says Mr. Dolagobinda. In the late 1990s, this small temple on the outskirts of Hyderabad -- the capital of the southern state of Andhra Pradesh -- drew just two or three visitors a week. C.S. Gopala Krishna, the 63-year-old head priest of the Chilkur Balaji Temple, wanted more people to come. So he gave Lord Balaji a new identity. I named him the Visa God," he says. Now, Mr. Gopala Krishna's temple is a hot spot. Billboards on the dirt road to the temple advertise English-language schools and visa advisers. Next to the parking lot, vendors hawk souvenirs and fruit. The Visa God's growing celebrity reflects the rising frustration of educated Indians hoping to move West. In recent years, it's become harder to win the employer-sponsored "H-1B" visas that let skilled professionals like engineers work in the U.S. While the U.S. limits the number of H-1Bs granted each year to 65,000, the demand for visas keeps rising. For the fiscal year ended September 2004, it took 11 months for the U.S. government to receive 65,000 applications for H-1B visas; last fiscal year, it took two months. This fiscal year, the U.S. government received more than 65,000 applications in one day. Applications are now assigned a random number, and the first 90,000 to 110,000 are processed and accepted or rejected until the quota is reached. Technology Hub. Hyderabad, a city of seven million once known for its pearl trade, has become a fast-growing technology hub. Indian citizens have been the biggest group of H-1B holders in recent years and Hyderabad has forged ties to U.S. companies such as Microsoft Corp., which employ large numbers of H-1Bs. Companies such as Accenture Ltd. and Dell Inc. have also set up huge development and service centers in the city. That's brought a cultural shift, as young middle-class locals replace traditional Indian clothing with jeans and T-shirts and hang out at newly opened malls and coffee shops. On a recent Saturday evening, as a statue of the flower-draped Visa God sat at the back of the modest temple, a cross-legged Mr. Gopala Krishna took responsibility for the visa fervor. Around him, visitors were speed-walking, heads down, as they made the necessary 11 circles around the temple to gain the favor of the Visa God. The temple was about to close, and some visitors broke into a jog. At other temples, elders bring their children," says Mr. Gopala Krishna. In this temple, children bring their elders. He was born at the temple, where his father was once head priest, and later left to live with relatives in Hyderabad. Mr. Gopala Krishna studied commerce in college and in 1968 started working at Hindustan Lever, a consumer-products giant. In 1999, he came back to the temple to take care of his father, and then became the head priest himself. At the time, the temple attracted few visitors. The temple has been there for at least 100 years with nobody visiting," says Ravi Babu, a longtime Hyderabad resident who runs the local chapter of The Indus Entrepreneurs, a club for entrepreneurs. Wooing Microsoft. By then, Hyderabad was changing. Local officials were on a tear to turn Hyderabad into the next Bangalore, the high-tech capital of the neighboring state of Karnataka. They started referring to Hyderabad as "Cyberabad. They fixed roads and wooed Microsoft and General Electric Co. to set up offices there. Hoping to capitalize on all the activity, technical colleges sprouted up in the city's outskirts near Mr. Gopala Krishna's temple. Students started trickling by on their way home from school; many complained about their failed attempts to secure U.S. visas. That gave the priest an idea to sell the students on the deity by giving him a new persona, "Visa God. Mr. Gopala Krishna counseled the students in English, then told them to walk around the temple 11 times to get their wish. I used to say, 'Go, this time you'll get it,'" he recalls. Soon, Mr. Gopala Krishna started seeing dozens -- then hundreds -- of new visitors a day. In 2005, some local newspapers wrote about the Visa God, just as new U.S. visa restrictions were taking a toll. Mr. Gopala Krishna and his relatives also launched a Web site and a newsletter called Voice of Temples, with features like a primer of sample prayers for help in visa interviews. The temple's popularity surged. Last year, a public battle between Mr. Gopala Krishna's family and the local government, which briefly wanted to take the temple over, only boosted its appeal among the young and subversive. Now devotees of the Visa God say they have to reach the temple by 6 a.m. to avoid the daytime rush. Rajendra Vippagunta, a 28-year-old now working for Amazon.com Inc. in Seattle, visited the temple in 2001 and saw few others. On a more recent visit, he says, "it was really, really jam-packed. Mr. Vippagunta didn't know about the Visa God the first time he visited the temple, but it may have had an effect anyway: The following year, he got a visa to move to the U.S. Mr. Babu of the Indus Entrepreneurs says the appeal of the Visa God boils down to the following: "Even if you're not religious, you say, 'Why not? I can just go and spend a few minutes and get a visa,'" he says. Write to Vauhini Vara at vauhini.vara at wsj.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071231/7769a281/attachment.html From newsgroup at cyrilgupta.com Wed Jan 2 18:08:26 2008 From: newsgroup at cyrilgupta.com (Cyril Gupta) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 18:08:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70712252044w2856833cib267b92837e84f07@mail.gmail.com> References: DEFANGED[105750]:<843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com><602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net><007101c8459e$73f2cb20$6602a8c0@taraprakash><6b79f1a70712 " " 232057x73936800hec1aff2a7e06ed0e@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70712252044w2856833cib267b92837e84f07@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Take not the name of lord in vain. ----- Original Message ----- From: Pawan Durani To: Zainab Bawa Cc: reader-list at sarai.net ; Vedavati Jogi Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 10:14 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Zainab , I hope you would understand that we are discussing people and not God's. I hope you know when to use the word "Pawan Putra" at right time. Should I react in a similar way , you would not like it. Dont be a bad loser ! Pawan On 12/25/07, Zainab Bawa wrote: Dear Pawan, Did you say 'peaceful' and secure state to Gujaratis? Who are these Gujaratis? I am certain that the Gujarati Muslims of Gujarat are as Gujarati as the 'Hindus' that you keep referring to are Gujaratis. Perhaps you should be a bit specific on who these Gujaratis are? I am sure it must be a very peaceful time for Gujaratis post March and April 2002, and that voting under duress is as peaceful as blood pressure and hypertension. I am also waiting for Modi in Delhi. Perhaps then we can witness a peaceful repeat of some events of 1983, this time in the name of an Akhand Gujarat. Jai bharat, Jai Gujarat, Jai Modi, Jai Pawan putra, Yours truly, Zainab (gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 10:27 AM, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: Modi's victory is a victory of Hindus as almost everyone had started categorising Hindus as someone who have terrorised muslims in Gujarat. Modi not only gave good governance , he laso gave a peaceful and secure state to Gujaratis. His victory is victory to all Gujaratis irrespective of being Hindus , muslims or Parsis. The Good governance wins , the respect of majority community wins , the confidence and security to minorties wins. The Psuedosecularists lost all. This time it was Gujarat .... We all are waiting for Modi in Delhi....just few months to go. On 12/24/07, Zainab Bawa wrote: Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclear as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you yourself have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus are not Hindus. I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting that Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'? Again, apologies for nagging you. Cheers, Zainab (confused gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote: > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani > be > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal > for > floating her own party against BJP? > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have > won, Hindus have > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth > next time. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com> > To: < reader-list at sarai.net>; < tapasrayx at gmail.com> > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars! > > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > > vedavati > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. List archive: -------------------------------------------------------- Public Software Library India Pvt Ltd 76/2, 1st Floor, Isckon Temple Road Garhi, East of Kailash New Delhi-110065 India Ph: 91-11-26486289/88 Mobile: 91-9313330798 Website: http://www.itbix.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20080102/dd924276/attachment.html From taraprakash at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 22:23:55 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:53:55 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] [Poem of the week] Ram Setu References: <47725535.1060409@sarai.net> Message-ID: <015601c84d60$10a11350$0302a8c0@taraprakash> Thanks Vivek. I too have a poem to share. In the light of the VHP procession concerning Ram Setu, last week, I was reminded of a poem by Hindi poet Ajneya, pen name for Sachchidananda Hirananda Vatsyayan which I think is *the Hindi poem of the modern age of Hindi poetry. The poem is about 40 years old, however, like a true classic it is relevant for all ages and places. But before transliterating the poem I would like to narrate what I heard from some of the VHP activists who had come to Delhi to participate in the protest. On being asked by a correspondent why the Setu should not be broken, one of them said, and I am translating here "It is very useful for the people of India. They walk on it to reach Sri Lanka." On being asked who is planning to break it another said, "America and specially NASA is after it." Who made it? one replied, "Sri Rama." Following is the poem: Jo pul banaaenge Vo piche rah jaaenge. Paar utaregi sena Vijayi honge Ram Mara jaaega Ravan Jo nirmata the Bandar kahlaange. (Let me dare translate the poem now.) Those who make the bridge, Will behind fall, The army will go across Ram will be victorious Ravan will fall. The constructors of the bridge Will, the world "monkeys" call. Regards Tara Prakash ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vivek Narayanan" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 8:20 AM Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: [Poem of the week] BELIEFS] > Well... In spite of all the darkness now, and the darkness to come-- > happy new year, happy festive season. > > Vivek > > BELIEFS > > > / after Kristin Dimitrova/ > > // > > Old people say that whenever > someone lights a cigarette from a candle > a sailor dies. > > Among sailors, I suppose, > there is a belief that when they shave > in a odd direction, an academic dies. > > So they try not to shave. > The point is that we think > About each other. > > > © 2005, Gregory O'Donoghue > > > Poem of the Week: > http://ireland.poetryinternationalweb.org/piw_cms/cms/cms_module/index.php?obj_id=10613 > Gregory O'Donoghue page: > http://ireland.poetryinternationalweb.org/piw_cms/cms/cms_module/index.php?obj_id=10611 > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > List archive: From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 00:44:47 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 14:14:47 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval Message-ID: <038501c84d73$c1057fc0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> Now this is the message which some list members have expressed their doubt about. I fail to understand why all my messages are said to have "suspicious header"? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 11:04 AM Subject: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval > Your mail to 'reader-list' with the subject > > Re: [Reader-list] FW: Your message to reader-list awaits > moderatorapproval > > Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. > > The reason it is being held: > > Message has a suspicious header > > Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive > notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to cancel > this posting, please visit the following URL: > > > http://mail.sarai.net/cgi-bin/mailman/confirm/reader-list/85818dbebd58b35d6ec772aeefed308d6f2aea0e > > From yasir.media at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 01:54:47 2008 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?WINDOWS-1256?Q?=ED=C7_=D3=D1_~_yasir_?=) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 12:24:47 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval In-Reply-To: <038501c84d73$c1057fc0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> References: <038501c84d73$c1057fc0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: <5af37bb0801021224v76a69268gbc469128e9045868@mail.gmail.com> I was also unsubscribed. there is a problem with the software,ive been told, but in my previous posts i have received this when: - message was in html, not 'plain text', or - bcc fields were used in the header ie 'suspicious header' (not sure why this is) or - there were a few too many (?) links in the text... - i have no idea, its a mystery to all of us - like so many other of life's mysteries, big and small. hope this helps. wishing everyone the best for the new year y On Jan 2, 2008 11:14 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > Now this is the message which some list members have expressed their doubt > about. > I fail to understand why all my messages are said to have "suspicious > header"? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 11:04 AM > Subject: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval > > > > Your mail to 'reader-list' with the subject > > > > Re: [Reader-list] FW: Your message to reader-list awaits > > moderatorapproval > > > > Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. > > > > The reason it is being held: > > > > Message has a suspicious header > > > > Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive > > notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to cancel > > this posting, please visit the following URL: > > > > > > http://mail.sarai.net/cgi-bin/mailman/confirm/reader-list/85818dbebd58b35d6ec772aeefed308d6f2aea0e > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > List archive: From monica at sarai.net Thu Jan 3 12:57:45 2008 From: monica at sarai.net (Monica Narula) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 12:57:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval In-Reply-To: <038501c84d73$c1057fc0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> References: <038501c84d73$c1057fc0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: You're right in pointing this out. For some odd reason, it comes as the default message on the software (mailman) that we use to run the lists. We have changed it in the past, but each time we face a tech crisis/overhaul (which as you all know has been happening far too often these days), the message gets reset to this default mode. We will change it again! thank you all for your patience. best M Monica Narula Raqs Sarai-CSDS 29 Rajpur Road Delhi 110 054 www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net On 03-Jan-08, at 12:44 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > Now this is the message which some list members have expressed > their doubt > about. > I fail to understand why all my messages are said to have "suspicious > header"? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 11:04 AM > Subject: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval > > >> Your mail to 'reader-list' with the subject >> >> Re: [Reader-list] FW: Your message to reader-list awaits >> moderatorapproval >> >> Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. >> >> The reason it is being held: >> >> Message has a suspicious header >> >> Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive >> notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to >> cancel >> this posting, please visit the following URL: >> >> >> http://mail.sarai.net/cgi-bin/mailman/confirm/reader-list/ >> 85818dbebd58b35d6ec772aeefed308d6f2aea0e >> >> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > List archive: From taraprakash at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 21:34:20 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:04:20 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: Your message to reader-list awaits moderatorapproval References: Message-ID: <00e801c84d59$25139e90$0302a8c0@taraprakash> Unfortunately that is the standard message you get when you start a new thread on this list. At least I do. ----- Original Message ----- From: Vedavati Jogi To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 10:25 AM Subject: [Reader-list] FW: Your message to reader-list awaits moderatorapproval see chanchal, my mails need moderator's approval but oshik, arnav's mails don't require this type of approval. great! isn't it. i think we now have to change the definition of 'vulgarity' also. > Subject: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval > From: reader-list-bounces at mail.sarai.net > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:47:53 +0530 > > Your mail to 'reader-list' with the subject > > RE: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. > > The reason it is being held: > > Post by non-member to a members-only list > > Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive > notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to cancel > this posting, please visit the following URL: > > http://mail.sarai.net/cgi-bin/mailman/confirm/reader-list/d25f5f515de09f04f676659df32b5b09b0a146cc > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. List archive: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20080102/f2663cae/attachment.html From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 01:13:08 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 14:43:08 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Detention of a blogger of social issues: NY Times Message-ID: <03d301c84d77$b5efd5a0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> Saudis Confirm Detention Of Blogger of Social Issues. By KATHERINE ZOEPF. RIYADH, Saudi Arabia. An outspoken Saudi blogger is being held for 'purposes of interrogation,' the Saudi Interior Ministry confirmed Tuesday. Gen. Mansour al-Turki, an Interior Ministry spokesman reached by telephone, said the blogger, Fouah al-Farhan, was 'being questioned about specific violations of nonsecurity laws. Mr. Farhan's blog, which discusses social issues, had become one of the most widely read in Saudi Arabia. Mr. Farhan, 32, of Jidda, was arrested Dec. 10 at his office, local news sources reported. Two weeks before his arrest, he wrote a letter to friends warning them that it was imminent. I was told that there is an official order from a high-ranking official in the Ministry of the Interior to investigate me,' read the letter, which is now posted in English and Arabic on Mr. Farhan's blog. Since his arrest, friends have continued to post entries on his Web log (www.alfarhan.org) on his behalf under a banner that reads 'Free Fouad' and features his picture. The issue that caused all of this is because I wrote about the political prisoners here in Saudi Arabia, and they think I'm running an online campaign promoting their issue,' the letter continued, saying that Mr. Farhan had been asked to sign a statement of apology. I'm not sure if I'm ready to do that,' he wrote. An apology for what? Apologizing because I said the government is a liar when they accused those guys to be supporting terrorism? Ahmad al-Omran, a blogger and a friend of Mr. Farhan, said that Mr. Farhan had been the first Saudi blogger to be detained by state security. The arrest created widespread anxiety among other Saudi bloggers and advocates, he said. An incident like this has its effect,' Mr. Omran said by telephone. It's intimidating to think you might be arrested for something on your blog. On the other hand, this means that these voices on the blogosphere are being heard. But it's really sad that a blogger who is writing about important issues out in the open would get arrested, while there are extremists who call for violence and hate, and the government is not doing much. Mr. Omran said Mr. Farhan was one of the first Saudi bloggers to post items in Arabic and to use his real name. At the top of Mr. Farhan's blog is a call in Arabic for 'freedom, dignity, justice, equality, public participation and the other lost Islamic values. The Interior Ministry would not say specifically why Mr. Farhan had been arrested. The violation is not a security matter,' General Turki said. He is not being jailed. He is being questioned, and I don't believe he will remain in detention long. They will get the information that they need from him and then they will let him go. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20080102/916e3eff/attachment.html From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 01:39:29 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 15:09:29 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] India pressures Myanmar Message-ID: <044301c84d7b$62c4a5f0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> India pressures Myanmar. Halt in arms sales loosens military ties;options for Beijing. By Glenn Kessler The Washington Post . INDIA HAS HALTED all arms sales and transfers to Myanmar, a development that could increase international pressure on the military junta that in September brutally crushed the pro-democracy "Saffron Revolution" led by monks. The Indian government's decision hasn't been officially announced, but diplomatic sources said it has been privately confirmed by New Delhi to top U.S. officials in recent weeks. In a little-noticed statement, Laura Bush, the U.S. first lady, noted the decision in a video teleconference she held on Dec. 10 in recognition of International Human Rights Day. Ticking off actions taken by countries around the world in response to the crackdown, Mrs. Bush said, "India, one of Burma's closest trading partners, has stopped selling arms to the junta. A spokesman for the Indian Embassy in Washington declined to comment. Myanmar, also known as Burma, is regarded as one of the world's most repressive nations. The National League for Democracy, the party of Nobel Peace Prize laureate Aung San Suu Kyi, won a landslide victory in the country's last elections, in 1990, but the military leadership refused to recognize the outcome. Ms. Suu Kyi has been under house arrest or in prison on and off since then. But in September, massive demonstrations led by Buddhist monks threatened the junta's rule, until the army arrested thousands of monks and democracy activists. Of the thousands arrested, 700 remain behind bars along with 1,150 political prisoners already in detention, according to Amnesty International. At least six members of the 88 Generation Students, a leading pro-democracy group, were arrested in late December, the U.S. State Department said. Before the protests, military ties between India and Myanmar had appeared to be on a fast track. Military contacts had increased in early 2007, with New Delhi seeking help battling Myanmar-based insurgent groups operating on its northeastern border and also attempting to counteract China's growing influence in the Burmese economy. Military forces of India and Myanmar began conducting joint operations, and Indian officials indicated they would grant Yangon's request for military equipment. In one sign of cooperation, India began discussing the transfer of military helicopters that Amnesty International, in a July report, said are "highly likely to contain components, technology and munitions" originating from European Union nations and the U.S., undermining embargoes by those countries. India's relationship with Burma has expanded pretty dramatically in the past few years," said Michael J. Green, a former top Asia adviser to U.S. President George W. Bush who is now at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington. He said that Southeast Asian neighbors of Myanmar had complained to Mr. Bush about India's deepening military ties with Yangon. They expect it of China, but India is a democracy," Mr. Green said. He said India's decision to end arms sales to Burma is "a big deal for U.S. -India relations. I think they are shifting. More broadly, India's move may put pressure on China, currently Myanmar's largest trading partner and arms supplier, experts said. In late December, a bipartisan group of 48 U.S. senators, led by Richard J. Durbin, a Democrat from Illinois, and John McCain, an Arizona Republican, signed a letter to Mr. Bush urging him to support an international arms embargo against Myanmar in the form of a U.N. Security Council resolution. No responsible nation should provide weapons to a regime as reprehensible as the one found in Burma," the letter said. Gordon Johndroe, a spokesman for the National Security Council, said, "We support an arms embargo against Burma and have been engaged in discussions with various countries on the matter. China is one of the nations holding veto power at the United Nations, and few expect it to support the arms embargo. But analysts said that India's decision could force China to think of options short of an arms embargo to pressure Myanmar's junta. In the 1990s, China became Myanmar's most important trading partner, according to Amnesty International, providing more than $2 billion in weapons and military equipment, including tanks, armored personnel carriers and artillery pieces such as howitzers, antitank guns and antiaircraft guns, some sold at below-market prices. The Chinese clearly are sensitive to the emerging role they are playing," Mr. Durbin said in an interview. We have an obligation to continue to remind them we need their help in stopping some of the outrages in the world. A top European envoy on Dec. 20 also urged China to use its influence in Myanmar, specifically to end the house arrest of Ms. Suu Kyi. Any sign from the Burmese authorities to progress on this path will be welcome, and the Chinese intervention is fundamental," Piero Fassino told reporters at the end of a three-day trip to China. In her year-end news conference, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said that "when the monks were in the streets, that there was an energy in the international community to try to do something about it," but now that momentum has dissipated. It's our responsibility, along with others, to try to keep a focus on that effort," she said. . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20080102/0fb81341/attachment.html From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 19:05:32 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 19:05:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir To Have it's own currency : J&K Govt Finance Minister In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70801012043s6ae7d15dv34451d174a7118e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70801012043s6ae7d15dv34451d174a7118e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801020535r5d2167d7h4f6f19a629b33492@mail.gmail.com> *" No ,this statement is not from a separatist leader but from Hon Minister of Finance , J&K Govt. Do some Pandits still trust the secular and nationalistic agenda of Kashmirs Majority community.........smell the coffee with some katlams... "* ** *Kashmir To Have it's own currency : J&K Govt Finance Minister * http://etalaat.net/english/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4412&Itemid=1 *Ozair Nissar* *Srinagar, Jan 01:* Stating that Kashmir has been fighting hard for its identity for more than last five hundred years, State Finance Minister Tariq Hamid Karra today said that the idea of self-rule will empower Kashmir with its own currency. Asked by reporters at the J&K Bank's calendar launch Monday, that when will Kashmir have its own currency, Karra replied, "Self-rule will enable the State to have its own currency and reviving it will be road-map for coming generation and this will help Kashmir to have its own identity for which it has struggled hard over the last five hundred years." Karra sounded optimistic about the revival of Kashmiri currency and coins that were on display at the venue which the bank has planned to showcase in its calendar next year. He said that these coins which date back to the 14th century certify the fact that Kashmir used to have its own currency in the past. "These coins are somehow in correlation with the ideology of our party which is based on self-reliance and self rule. "The coins on one side depict that Kashmir in its earlier times had its own economy for which we are striving even today for many reasons and on the other these depict that Kashmir had a unique cultural identity which as a nation we have been fighting for ages now," said Karra. This year's J&K Bank's calendar has a theme of Kashmir everywhere - a break from the tradition as earlier its calenders would showcase pilgrimage destinations, landscapes and cultural diversity. While speaking about the calendar which was released today he said, "The calendar is altogether different from the earlier one`s which would depict tourist resorts, pilgrimage destinations and landscapes of the region but this effort of J&K bank is an endeavour to take us back to our roots and culture and history is witness to the fact that a nation which is not aware of its roots and culture struggles for its existence as we are struggling today." Karra further said that the schemes and policies launched by the bank have a grass root traction and promoting a particular art and handicraft is a service to the entrepreneurs and other craftsman of the nation. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/defanged-1 Size: 4067 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20080102/8b2c46f6/attachment.bin From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 10:12:01 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 10:12:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <93D1A9BFB1D84ADA9FAA726576A5B773@vetrivel> References: <956691.95928.qm@web90412.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <93D1A9BFB1D84ADA9FAA726576A5B773@vetrivel> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801022042r247233c8tc9f35f9f0c344eaa@mail.gmail.com> Hello Adhimoolan , I forgot that this Forum was supposed to be anti Hindu and there are many who have deviated. Please dont write anything pro hindu . It hurts God Bless.... Pawan On 12/26/07, Vetrivel Adhimoolam wrote: > > I realized the need for applying junk e-mail filter. It's amazing that a > forum like this gets easily highjacked by the Hindu fundamentalist forces. > The return of barbarism. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* chanchal malviya > > *To:* Vedavati Jogi ; reader-list at sarai.net > > *Cc:* sudhakar.koppu at gmail.com > > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:48 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > There are huge breaking force acting on our Nation > 1. With the influence of foreigh missionnaries and investors, Science is > taking tool to introduce concepts like Sex Education in Children - the > target is next generation should be destroyed. Current generation has > already met the target of not respecting the nation and running heedlessly > towards whatever they like. they cannot withstand pressure, nor are the > brave enough to take bold decisions. they want money and they want wine and > girls around in the name freedom. > > 2. Govt. policies like Reservations are breaking the nation to pieces, > separating people from people. > 3. Chrisitian missionnaries are converting the Hindus to Christians at a > ver fast pace > 4. Muslims are being intruded (from Bangladesh in particular) in all > parts, increasing their population so as to become the majority and declare > the nation as Islamic state > 5. Foreign investments from Islamic state are continuously buying lands > through local Muslims > 6. Charas, Ganja, Afeem, other drugs along with Arms and Ammunitions are > being continuously coming across Pakistan and Bangladesh borders. Arms are > provided to Islamic groups and Naxals. Drugs are provided to sex educated > children of careless parents. > 7. Muslims are in target of Islamic conversions, continuously marrying > Hindus girls - Hindus girls are not able to understand that it is they who > are converted to Islam and the boy is never accepting Hinduism - Why? If it > was love, we would have found conversions in this field happening in both > area. > 8. Indian intellectuals are continuously exported to Foreign countries > (IIT, IIM, and all good institute students), ensuring that they do not work > for India > 9. Export of our Food Items is increasing when prices are hiking in our > own country. > 10. Poverty now seem to be the property of minority alone - when actually, > no minority is under poverty - most of them are on target to achieve this > nation as a group. > > There are so many things happening in this nation from years. And now > there is only one agenda - kill Hinduism, ask the Youth to be secular and > attack Hinduism - because Hindus destroyed is India taken over. > > Open your eyes, O Hindus - this is not a religion when you talk Hinduism. > It is the only philosophy that is humanity. What you see as differences are > actually political move to break the nation apart. Do not get moved by such > irrationality. have the gut to see beyond the screen, have the intelligence > to understand beyond what is highlighted in news. > > Jai Hind, > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Vedavati Jogi > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:19:31 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > what is meant by 'your beloved' country? > don't you stay in this country? > is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? > are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com> To: > vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; > reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> Date: > Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why Pakistan? People have migrated to > African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American > countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and corners > of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all Muslims? If > you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a second > thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority of > those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the > other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were > > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che> > Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and > > Muslims had > no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena for > their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > sentiments. How > do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai? Do > they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? Those who you > think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood just > for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I > support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard core > hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath yatra > and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should be > the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to power? > Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership of > which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya > Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > > To: ; < > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>; > > Sent: Tuesday, > December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find > india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan.> >> > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt > karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning this country on > religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal > rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram > temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if you too > are the sons of this soil, > why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor? > babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this earth has > ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it very well that > madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are > trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from > sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your chidren > to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere because > they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for > reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then > that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform > civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields > in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never > faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this > 'false > > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been > taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am > sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take > action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to > garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims > but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat > so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is > politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & > seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if > not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation > building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try > to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > Date: > Tue, 25 Dec > 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati,> > When > you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore > gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin > & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action > against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments > anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after > > brutal rape, > violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you > > have to live > in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that > you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary identity > or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left? What do you > have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > participated in the > 1992-93 riots in > Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken against > the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra government > under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in mass violence? I > am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to be in,one where > even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed to be aligned.> > In > peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi < > vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab, 'india is a secular country > and will remain a secular country > > only because of majority community > (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who had voted for pakistan in > 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india after partition. they chose > to stay back because their daily > > bread & butter was here not because > they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too followed british policy > of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave reservations to bc, obcs, by > reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs & obcs and > divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities from muslim > community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir hussain, > shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... all of > them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular among > hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > descrimination, > indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed carrot of > 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they can't > hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. modi does not > 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including > bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, > hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former > because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. this > secularism practised by > congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists > are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is talking about > 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like soharabuddin is > killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what about > 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter hindus cannot > be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! vedavati> >> >> > > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: > > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a > simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > > problem of communalism on > their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And > when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is > already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who > have won.. > in other words, > > it is humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims has yet > to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass when > there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single > movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > Whenever > Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > but not > Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > the > world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you > think > that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > > Hindus... > can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > becoming > another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no > strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > > > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same > God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the > nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what > they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day > Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would > start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would > join the festivals > > of their brothers... the secularism would meet > its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not > have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims > have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > > from > their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra > Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > ----- Original Message > ----From: Zainab Bawa To: > > > TaraPrakash Cc : > reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: > Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am still a > bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as for > formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the > country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus are not > Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for > my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that Modi's > victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > thatModi's victory > is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for > nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 > AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > > Isn't it rather a > defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS members > discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > > shaap" for > getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> > > be> happy > with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > communal > > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat > > was a > fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> > > lost > too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May > > be > you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > > next > time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > > vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> > > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the > > > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & > > > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header.Tounsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > Never miss a > thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.> >> >> > Live the life in style with MSN > Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!> > > _________________________________________________________________> > Post > free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in> > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > List archive: > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20080103/07b126a3/attachment.html From uddipana at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 11:58:40 2008 From: uddipana at gmail.com (Uddipana Goswami) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 11:58:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] literatures of assam - 'muse india' issue Message-ID: requesting feedback on the assamese literature section in this issue of 'muse india' that i edited: http://www.museindia.com/index.asp -- Uddipana Goswami www.jajabori-mon.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20080103/11f0cd1e/attachment.html From turbulence at turbulence.org Thu Jan 3 03:59:26 2008 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 17:29:26 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Networked_Music_Review Commission: "More of the Same" by LoVid Message-ID: <00b101c84d8f$018d7910$04a86b30$@org> January 2, 2008 Networked_Music_Review Commission: "More of the Same" by LoVid http://turbulence.org/works/moreofthesame/ "More of the Same" extends LoVid's investigation of electrical irregularities and human interactions. After it loads copies of a single sound sample, fissures in the digital veneer are explored as the spoken communication is played back repeatedly. Though each instantiation of the speech is identical, physical constraints affect the timing. This allows the nature of the medium to peek through the cracks in the voices. "More of the Same" is a 2007 commission of New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc. for Networked_Music_Review. It was made possible with funding from the New York State Music Fund, established by the New York State Attorney General at Rockefeller Philanthropy Advisors. BIOGRAPHY LoVid (Tali Hinkis and Kyle Lapidus) overwhelms the senses with new media in their performances, videos, objects, and installations. LoVid has toured the US and Europe extensively performing, exhibiting, and lecturing at PS1, The Neuberger Museum, The Butler Institute of American Art , The Center for Contemporary Art Tel Aviv, Exit Art, Evolution Festival (UK), The Kitchen, RISD, Massachusetts College of Art, FACT, Kansas City Art Institute, Chicago Art Institute, University of Wisconsin, Futuresonic Festival (UK), The New Museum of Contemporary Art, Ocularis, and Institute of Contemporary Art London, among many others. LoVid has been artist in residence at Eyebeam, Harvestworks, iEAR, Alfred University, and Stevens Institute of Technology; and has received grants and awards from Turbulence.org, Experimental TV Center, NYSCA, Foundation for Contemporary Arts, and The Greenwall Foundation. LoVid is also a free103Point9 transmission artist. For more Networked_Music_Review Commissions please visit http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review/tags/nmr_commission Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From sadan at sarai.net Thu Jan 3 17:57:02 2008 From: sadan at sarai.net (sadan at sarai.net) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 17:57:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Foucault as a genealogist : The case for (non) archives In-Reply-To: <364403.23960.qm@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <364403.23960.qm@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1884c028ab5bfca71b20395c03fb1798@sarai.net> Dear Arnab, thanks for suggestion to reread Foucault on archives. Agamben may be another person to consider in this excercise. Tow quick respond, we also need to read Foucault's geneology, Nietzsche... as a point in between his earlier 'Archeology' and his lecutures... and then his power/knowledge. The point i was trying to raise in my article though is not whether we need archives or not but how archives can be profitably seen from vantage points of different sets of people. thanks. sadan. On 4:53 pm 01/03/08 ARNAB CHATTERJEE wrote: > Dear friends, > Now atlast I'm geared up to rise and make > reviews of sentences we talked and questions we > answered or left them out at our last meeting in > Delhi. > First my conversation with mahmood farooqui and this > is simultaneously for Sadan Jha and Ritwik > Bhattacharya ( our own Kolkata archive theorist) as > well ( having read sadan's stuff on archive in > CENSOR..book etc. and Ritwik's research on the archive > and our own debate ehether pornography could have an > archival living or not). Does philosophical history > need archival materials? Does genealogy need archives? > My answer is unequivocal "No". I'll go into the > speculated details in my next post-- a bit of detail, > that is. But I'll first submit to mahmood farooqui and > my friends to reread Foucault's 'Nietzsche, genealogy > and History' because there is stuff for both sides and > I think Foucault simply puts his own oeuvre down by > claiming a case for vast source materials once and > then declaiming by saying archival materials have > their origin in a sort of non archival trace. I'll > argue, we could start by asking again , whether the > necessity of archives arises from within the archives. > If not, what are the consequences? > And another hint,Foucault is helped by Nietzsche here, > but consider Nietzsche's career as a genealogist( e.g > of values): how much of a source materialist he was, > how deep referential? > > Lets get onto the game, the outwork once more. > Un happy new year to all > arnab > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a > click away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 09:48:10 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 23:18:10 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: [invites] Petition to protest against the continued detention of Dr. Binayak Sen Message-ID: <03a201c84e88$d1c6e1d0$6400a8c0@taraprakash> FW: [invites] Petition to protest against the continued detention of Dr. Binayak Sen ----- Original Message ----- From: Victor John Cordeiro To: aadi jagruti ; AADI School ; AAINA ; Action For Autism ; add delhi ; ADD India ; ADD India Trichy ; Alexander SERVH ; AmarjotiCharitable Trust ; Amithab Mehrotra SPARC ; APD Bangalore ; APD Bangalore ; Arushi Bhopal ; Ashagram Trust ; ASRA ; ASTHA India ; Banyan Chennai ; Bapu trust ; Bethany Shilong ; Bethany Society Shilong ; BPA Bhusan Punani ; cadabams at bgl.vsnl.net.in ; CAN Delhi ; CDC India ; Center For Differently Abled ; Cheshire Home Jamshedpur ; DA Training programmes ; Deepshikha Ranchi ; deshabandhu club ; disability rights initiative HRLN ; Employment For Disabled youth ; HANDICAPPED FOUNDATION ; ISH Bangalore ; JM Institute of S&H ; KAPD Bangalore ; Karishma Enterprises ; KPAMRC Bangalore ; Madhumita Puri Disability India ; Mahanthesh Samarthanam ; Mitra Jyothi ; Mobility India ; Mobility India CBR ; MORE Madhanapalli ; NAB Delhi ; Nab Helpline ; NAB India ; NAB Karnataka ; NAB Mumbai ; NABCBW Delhi ; narendra Foundation ; NASEOH Mumbai ; National Trust ; navchetan blinds ; Navprerna ; NBJK ; NCPEDP Legislation ; NCPEDP NDN ; NCPEDP Secretariate ; PLR Society ; PNR Society ; PNRS ; Pratibandhi punarvas Samiti ; Prayas ; RFS National Board ; SAKSHAM Delhi ; Samarthanam Trust ; Samarthya India Delhi ; Sanjivini Society ; Sankalp ; Shishu Sarothi ; Shubham ; SPARC India ; Srinivasulu Pragati Charitables ; SRMAB ; SRMAB Bangalore ; SSNI AADI Delhi ; SST Chennai ; Umesh Purohit YSC ; Vanita Sparsh Products ; Venu Eye Institute ; Viklang Kendra ; viklang sangh ; Vimal J Thakur ; Vinamra Agarwal ; Vinod Sena ; Vishwa Shanthi Vikas Samithi ; Volunteers for the Blind ; Welfare Society for the Blind ; Aadhar Pune ; Amhi Amchya Arogyasathi ; Ankur Delhi ; Arvind K. 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Kindly respond. Regards Victor. -----Original Message----- From: invites at yahoogroups.com [mailto:invites at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Edwin Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 8:34 PM To: invites Subject: [invites] Petition to <> protest against the continued detention of Dr. Binayak Sen Please circulate widely! Show your solidarity to great social activist & doctor, with 25 years of social service! AID logo Subject:Petition to protest against the continued detention of Dr. Binayak Sen (December 2007) 53 people have signed this petition so far. Subject:Petition to protest against the continued detention of Dr. Binayak Sen (December 2007) 53 people have signed this petition so far. To, Dr. Raman Singh The Hon'ble Chief Minister of Chhattishgarh CC: 1) Dr. Manmohan Singh, Hon'ble Prime Minister of India (Fax: 011-23016857) 2)ESL Narsimhan Hon'ble Governor of Chhattishgarh 3)Ram Vichar Netam Hon'ble Home Minister of Chhattishgarh Dear Chief Minister, We, the undersigned, are dismayed and deeply disappointed at the rejection of bail for Dr. Binayak Sen, by the Supreme Court of India.More than 7 months since his arrest on vague and unsubstantiated charges under a draconian law, the State of Chhattisgarh is yet to produce any semblance of evidence against Dr. Sen and continues to drag its feet at every opportunity. This was evident several times during the last 7 months, most notably when the government only brought charges, which at best can be described as baseless, on the 89 th day of his arrest, barely meeting the 90 day limit. Even as the State holds Dr. Sen with no credible case or evidence against him, the actual naxalite problem has only worsened in recent weeks and months. The recent escalation of violence and rise in death toll as well as the security breach in Dantewada prison, being the latest events in an increasingly violent state. Innocent people of Chhattisgarh continue to suffer even as the situation worsens. Dr. Binayak Sen, besides doing stellar work in the fields of public health, is a strong proponent of peace and has repeatedly condemned naxalism as he did violence of any type. We demand the following 1) That Dr. Sen be immediately released and all cases against him be dropped. 2) That the Chhattisgarh Government take immediate steps to restore peace and end the violence by the naxalites as well as the Salwa Judum. 3) That the Government end its support of the Salwa Judum immediately. 4) That the Government looks after the interests of all citizens of Chhattisgarh including understanding the underlying reasons why the naxalite movement is gaining strength in regions of the state. Background: Dr. Binayak Sen, a graduate of CMC Vellore is the General Secretary of the Chhattisgarh People's Union for Civil Liberties (PUCL) and a pediatrician and public health/social activist of repute. He has been working in Chhattisgarh on health, social and human rights issues for over 25 years. He is responsible for stellar contributions to the cause of healthcare for all in Chhattisgarh including setting up the Shaheed Hospital for Mine Workers in Dalli Rajahara and the establishment of the Mitaneen program, a pioneering model putting the Village Health Worker at the forefront of rural healthcare. Dr. Sen during his PUCL work brought to light the human rights situation in Bastar and Dantewada districts of the state, where a civil war like situation has been prevailing, even as the state propped up by providing money and arms, an organization called the Salwa Judum to supposedly counter the attendant naxalism. Dr. Sen was arrested on May 14, 2007 under the Chhattisgarh Special Public Security Act, 2006 (CSPSA which gives the state sweeping powers, for allegedly being in contact with a naxalite leader who is in jail. Dr. Sen maintains that these meetings occured with the express written permission of the state. The State is yet to provide a single credible piece of evidence or a specific charge. AID Previous petition on same issue In Solidarity _______________________________________________ __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages Please ensure that this information is used. Share it widely... and ALWAYS check before you go. 'Reply' goes to the person who posted only. So please check ID before sending (especially for forwarded messages)! Ask others to join by sending a mail to invites-subscribe at yahoogroups.com Post directly to invites at yahoogroups.com (attachments are automatically removed by yahoogroup setting) Status:: 1 January 2008:: 2570 subscribers, 124 bouncing The earth is not under threat due to global warming. We are. And the folks at yahoo gently let us know that: MARKETPLACE ________________________________ Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net. Yahoo! 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For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 09:50:18 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 09:50:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70801022042r247233c8tc9f35f9f0c344eaa@mail.gmail.com> References: <956691.95928.qm@web90412.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <93D1A9BFB1D84ADA9FAA726576A5B773@vetrivel> <6b79f1a70801022042r247233c8tc9f35f9f0c344eaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990801032020r70c88078r8891b9e6aacb8628@mail.gmail.com> Hi Pawan, Like many others, had got unsubscribed from Sarai, so just went ahead and re-subscribed, and got tons of mail a few days late - which was quite interesting as I got to see viewpoints and counterpoints without reacting. Anyhow, to get to the point I was going to make - I'm sure you'll agree with me that Chanchal's argument was extremely unfounded in fact based on some dreamlike vision she has of 'Hinduism'. 1. Sex education It is a well known fact that prudism in the form of the insistence of blouses (which were unknown in rural Bengal from my childhood) or pants instead of lungi's and dhoti's were a direct influence of the British hangover for what they considered 'proper'. Go through ancient Indian art, and there are countless instances that will prove this to you. 2. Reservations Per se, for India as to move forward - it has to move forward as a whole from the villages to the towns to the cities. Also, it is a known fact that 'lower castes' are still dominated in areas and that is accepted. Hindu as I may be from birth, I refuse to agree with anyone who may claim that s/he is higher (or lower) than me because of their ancestral name. I'm sure you'll agree that just because some one is born a Brahmin does not denote that they are automatically superhumans endowed with special powers. Similarly, just because someone is a Dalit does not mean that they are mentally or physically incapable. And I have personally met people at all levels who are capable (and incapable) irrespective of caste. The ex-King of Nepal is a prime example of a bad high caste ruler. Then if capable 'Lower Castes' have been kept down, doesn't the Indian Nation need them to be empowered so that India can achieve it's greatness? 3. Foreign Investments The investments may be from 'Islamic States' or Indian Muslims. The bigger evil (though this is a personal opinion) is the people in India who cheat the state and the law of this land and misuse public money / property - from Nandigram to the Registrar of Societies in Delhi who fleeced the nation. Foreign money is subject to many regulations and checks - and if there is a misuse, we should look at catching the people who are supposed to administrate it for public good. 4. Charas, Ganja & Afeem were known as 'Nawabi Showk' well before the British came into India. Charas and Ganja especially are copiously consumed on Shiv Ratri in India. Weakness or addiction has nothing to do with religion, caste or gender - it is purely a personal problem that can afflict anyone. I could go on and on about the misinformed statements of Chanchal, which I'm sure you would also agree are completely skewed. However, as a Hindu (atleast notionally - since I do not believe that any Brahmin has the right to stand between God and me) I do have a problem with someone telling me what I should believe about how a Hindu should believe / behave / think. As a thinking individual and an adult, it is my right to follow my personal belief - all the more so when faced with an incoherent, immature and totally unfounded argument that you seem to agree with (and I say 'seem to agree with' since you answer Ahimoolam's irritation with bland statements that signify unless we subscribe to Chanchal's rant we are 'anti Hindu') Rgds, Partha .......................... On Jan 3, 2008 10:12 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Hello Adhimoolan , > > > > I forgot that this Forum was supposed to be anti Hindu and there are many > who have deviated. Please dont write anything pro hindu . > > > > It hurts > > > > God Bless.... > > > > Pawan > > > > On 12/26/07, Vetrivel Adhimoolam wrote: > > > I realized the need for applying junk e-mail filter. It's amazing that > > a forum like this gets easily highjacked by the Hindu fundamentalist forces. > > The return of barbarism. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > *From:* chanchal malviya > > > > *To:* Vedavati Jogi ; reader-list at sarai.net > > > > *Cc:* sudhakar.koppu at gmail.com > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:48 AM > > > > *Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > There are huge breaking force acting on our Nation > > 1. With the influence of foreigh missionnaries and investors, Science is > > taking tool to introduce concepts like Sex Education in Children - the > > target is next generation should be destroyed. Current generation has > > already met the target of not respecting the nation and running heedlessly > > towards whatever they like. they cannot withstand pressure, nor are the > > brave enough to take bold decisions. they want money and they want wine and > > girls around in the name freedom. > > > > 2. Govt. policies like Reservations are breaking the nation to pieces, > > separating people from people. > > 3. Chrisitian missionnaries are converting the Hindus to Christians at a > > ver fast pace > > 4. Muslims are being intruded (from Bangladesh in particular) in all > > parts, increasing their population so as to become the majority and declare > > the nation as Islamic state > > 5. Foreign investments from Islamic state are continuously buying lands > > through local Muslims > > 6. Charas, Ganja, Afeem, other drugs along with Arms and Ammunitions are > > being continuously coming across Pakistan and Bangladesh borders. Arms are > > provided to Islamic groups and Naxals. Drugs are provided to sex educated > > children of careless parents. > > 7. Muslims are in target of Islamic conversions, continuously marrying > > Hindus girls - Hindus girls are not able to understand that it is they who > > are converted to Islam and the boy is never accepting Hinduism - Why? If it > > was love, we would have found conversions in this field happening in both > > area. > > 8. Indian intellectuals are continuously exported to Foreign countries > > (IIT, IIM, and all good institute students), ensuring that they do not work > > for India > > 9. Export of our Food Items is increasing when prices are hiking in our > > own country. > > 10. Poverty now seem to be the property of minority alone - when > > actually, no minority is under poverty - most of them are on target to > > achieve this nation as a group. > > > > There are so many things happening in this nation from years. And now > > there is only one agenda - kill Hinduism, ask the Youth to be secular and > > attack Hinduism - because Hindus destroyed is India taken over. > > > > Open your eyes, O Hindus - this is not a religion when you talk > > Hinduism. It is the only philosophy that is humanity. What you see as > > differences are actually political move to break the nation apart. Do not > > get moved by such irrationality. have the gut to see beyond the screen, have > > the intelligence to understand beyond what is highlighted in news. > > > > Jai Hind, > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:19:31 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > what is meant by 'your beloved' country? > > don't you stay in this country? > > is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? > > are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com> To: > > vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; > > reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> Date: > > Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why Pakistan? People have migrated to > > African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American > > countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and corners > > of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all Muslims? If > > you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a second > > thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority of > > those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the > > other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were > > > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che> > > Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and > > > Muslims had > > no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena for > > their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > sentiments. How > > do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai? Do > > they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? Those who you > > think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood just > > for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I > > support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard core > > hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath yatra > > and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should be > > the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to power? > > Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership of > > which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya > > Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > > > To: < bawazainab79 at gmail.com>; < > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>; > < reader-list at sarai.net>> Sent: Tuesday, > > December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > > > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find > > india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan.> >> > > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > > > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt > > karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning this country on > > religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal > > rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > > > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram > > temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if you too > > are the sons of this soil, > > why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor? > > babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this earth has > > ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it very well that > > madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are > > trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from > > sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your chidren > > to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere because > > they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for > > reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then > > that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform > > civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields > > in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never > > faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this > > 'false > > > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > > > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been > > taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am > > sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take > > action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to > > garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims > > but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat > > so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is > > politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & > > seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if > > not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation > > building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try > > to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > Date: > > Tue, 25 Dec > > 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > > > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > ; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati,> > When you say "modi does not > > 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including > > bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, > > hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former > > because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway." I don't > > think there are any sentiments left after > > brutal rape, violence and > > torture. When the soul is killed and when you > > have to live in duress > > under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that you 'are > > Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary identity or not), > > you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left? What do you have to > > say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > participated in the 1992-93 riots > > in > > Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken > > against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra > > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in mass > > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to be > > in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed to be > > aligned.> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, > > Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab, 'india is > > a secular country and will remain a secular country > > only because of > > majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who had > > voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india after > > partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread & butter > > was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too > > followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave > > reservations to bc, obcs, by > > reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs & obcs > > and divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities from muslim > > community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir hussain, > > shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... all of > > them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular among > > hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > descrimination, > > indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed carrot of > > 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they can't > > hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. modi does not > > 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including > > bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, > > hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former > > because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. this > > secularism practised by > > congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus. > > terrorists are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is talking > > about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like soharabuddin > > is killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what about > > 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter hindus cannot > > be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! vedavati> >> > > >> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > > electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC : > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> >> > > >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are > > facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra > > Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be > > understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when > > Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. > > in other words, > > it is humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims has yet > > to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass when > > there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single > > movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > > > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > Whenever > > Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > but not > > Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > the > > world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that > > all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever > > Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not > > religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > > > Don't you think > > that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > > Hindus... > > can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > becoming > > another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no > > strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > > > > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same > > God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > > > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the > > nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what > > they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day > > Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would > > start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would > > join the festivals > > of their brothers... the secularism would meet > > its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not > > have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims > > have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > > from > > their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra > > Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > ----- Original Message > > ----From: Zainab Bawa < bawazainab79 at gmail.com>To: > > > > TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com>Cc : > > reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: > > Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > > electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am still a > > bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as for > > formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the > > country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus are not > > Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for > > my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that > > Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > thatModi's > > victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again, > > apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On Dec > > 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > > Isn't > > it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS > > members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > > > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> > > > > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > > > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat > > > > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> > > > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May > > > > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > > > > next > > time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > vrjogi at hotmail.com > > >> To: ; < tapasrayx at gmail.com>> > > Sent: > > Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > > > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > > > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > > > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > > > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> > > > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an > > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: > > < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > > > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > > > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the > > > > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques& > > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: < > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > Never miss a > > thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.> >> >> > Live the life in style with MSN > > Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!> > > > _________________________________________________________________> > Post > > free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in> > > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219> > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > List archive: > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 10:38:51 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:38:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70801032105tbf678ftd55b2f8ed45468dd@mail.gmail.com> References: <956691.95928.qm@web90412.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <93D1A9BFB1D84ADA9FAA726576A5B773@vetrivel> <6b79f1a70801022042r247233c8tc9f35f9f0c344eaa@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990801032020r70c88078r8891b9e6aacb8628@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70801032105tbf678ftd55b2f8ed45468dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990801032108j139b5142yde9ffca0a25046ed@mail.gmail.com> Hi, That's great. However, it leaves an even bigger confusion as to which part of Ahimoolam's response you found 'anti Hindu'. Rgds, Partha ................ On Jan 4, 2008 10:35 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Partha , > > If some people have an interpretation of society , it may be termed as a > personal view. I believe a Dalit is as much a Hindu as a Brahmin or a > Kshytra is.And I believe that all those who lure poor with money to > convert should be stopped as well. > > And me , though being a Brahmin by birth , never believed that I stood > between a human and God. Neither were we taught so by our parents. > > Pawan > > On 1/4/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > Like many others, had got unsubscribed from Sarai, so just went ahead > > and re-subscribed, and got tons of mail a few days late - which was quite > > interesting as I got to see viewpoints and counterpoints without reacting. > > > > Anyhow, to get to the point I was going to make - I'm sure you'll agree > > with me that Chanchal's argument was extremely unfounded in fact based on > > some dreamlike vision she has of 'Hinduism'. > > > > 1. Sex education > > It is a well known fact that prudism in the form of the insistence > > of blouses > > (which were unknown in rural Bengal from my childhood) or pants > > instead > > of lungi's and dhoti's were a direct influence of the British > > hangover for what > > they considered 'proper'. Go through ancient Indian art, and there > > are countless > > instances that will prove this to you. > > > > 2. Reservations > > Per se, for India as to move forward - it has to move forward as a > > whole from > > the villages to the towns to the cities. Also, it is a known fact > > that 'lower castes' > > are still dominated in areas and that is accepted. Hindu as I may > > be from birth, > > I refuse to agree with anyone who may claim that s/he is higher (or > > lower) than > > me because of their ancestral name. I'm sure you'll agree that just > > because > > some one is born a Brahmin does not denote that they are > > automatically > > superhumans endowed with special powers. Similarly, just because > > someone > > is a Dalit does not mean that they are mentally or physically > > incapable. > > And I have personally met people at all levels who are capable (and > > incapable) > > irrespective of caste. The ex-King of Nepal is a prime example of a > > bad high caste > > ruler. Then if capable 'Lower Castes' have been kept down, doesn't > > the Indian Nation > > need them to be empowered so that India can achieve it's greatness? > > > > 3. Foreign Investments > > The investments may be from 'Islamic States' or Indian Muslims. The > > bigger evil > > (though this is a personal opinion) is the people in India who > > cheat the state and the > > law of this land and misuse public money / property - from > > Nandigram to the Registrar > > of Societies in Delhi who fleeced the nation. Foreign money is > > subject to many > > regulations and checks - and if there is a misuse, we should look > > at catching the > > people who are supposed to administrate it for public good. > > > > > > 4. Charas, Ganja & Afeem were known as 'Nawabi Showk' well before the > > British came > > into India. Charas and Ganja especially are copiously consumed on > > Shiv Ratri in India. > > Weakness or addiction has nothing to do with religion, caste or > > gender - it is purely > > a personal problem that can afflict anyone. > > > > I could go on and on about the misinformed statements of Chanchal, which > > I'm sure you would also agree are completely skewed. However, as a Hindu > > (atleast notionally - since I do not believe that any Brahmin has the right > > to stand between God and me) I do have a problem with someone telling me > > what I should believe about how a Hindu should believe / behave / think. As > > a thinking individual and an adult, it is my right to follow my personal > > belief - all the more so when faced with an incoherent, immature and totally > > unfounded argument that you seem to agree with (and I say 'seem to agree > > with' since you answer Ahimoolam's irritation with bland statements that > > signify unless we subscribe to Chanchal's rant we are 'anti Hindu') > > > > Rgds, Partha > > .......................... > > > > On Jan 3, 2008 10:12 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > Hello Adhimoolan , > > > > > > > > > > > > I forgot that this Forum was supposed to be anti Hindu and there are > > > many who have deviated. Please dont write anything pro hindu . > > > > > > > > > > > > It hurts > > > > > > > > > > > > God Bless.... > > > > > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/26/07, Vetrivel Adhimoolam wrote: > > > > > > > I realized the need for applying junk e-mail filter. It's amazing > > > > that a forum like this gets easily highjacked by the Hindu fundamentalist > > > > forces. The return of barbarism. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > *From:* chanchal malviya > > > > > > > > *To:* Vedavati Jogi ; reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > > *Cc:* sudhakar.koppu at gmail.com > > > > > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:48 AM > > > > > > > > *Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > There are huge breaking force acting on our Nation > > > > 1. With the influence of foreigh missionnaries and investors, > > > > Science is taking tool to introduce concepts like Sex Education in Children > > > > - the target is next generation should be destroyed. Current generation has > > > > already met the target of not respecting the nation and running heedlessly > > > > towards whatever they like. they cannot withstand pressure, nor are the > > > > brave enough to take bold decisions. they want money and they want wine and > > > > girls around in the name freedom. > > > > > > > > 2. Govt. policies like Reservations are breaking the nation to > > > > pieces, separating people from people. > > > > 3. Chrisitian missionnaries are converting the Hindus to Christians > > > > at a ver fast pace > > > > 4. Muslims are being intruded (from Bangladesh in particular) in all > > > > parts, increasing their population so as to become the majority and declare > > > > the nation as Islamic state > > > > 5. Foreign investments from Islamic state are continuously buying > > > > lands through local Muslims > > > > 6. Charas, Ganja, Afeem, other drugs along with Arms and Ammunitions > > > > are being continuously coming across Pakistan and Bangladesh borders. Arms > > > > are provided to Islamic groups and Naxals. Drugs are provided to sex > > > > educated children of careless parents. > > > > 7. Muslims are in target of Islamic conversions, continuously > > > > marrying Hindus girls - Hindus girls are not able to understand that it is > > > > they who are converted to Islam and the boy is never accepting Hinduism - > > > > Why? If it was love, we would have found conversions in this field happening > > > > in both area. > > > > 8. Indian intellectuals are continuously exported to Foreign > > > > countries (IIT, IIM, and all good institute students), ensuring that they do > > > > not work for India > > > > 9. Export of our Food Items is increasing when prices are hiking in > > > > our own country. > > > > 10. Poverty now seem to be the property of minority alone - when > > > > actually, no minority is under poverty - most of them are on target to > > > > achieve this nation as a group. > > > > > > > > There are so many things happening in this nation from years. And > > > > now there is only one agenda - kill Hinduism, ask the Youth to be secular > > > > and attack Hinduism - because Hindus destroyed is India taken over. > > > > > > > > Open your eyes, O Hindus - this is not a religion when you talk > > > > Hinduism. It is the only philosophy that is humanity. What you see as > > > > differences are actually political move to break the nation apart. Do not > > > > get moved by such irrationality. have the gut to see beyond the screen, have > > > > the intelligence to understand beyond what is highlighted in news. > > > > > > > > Jai Hind, > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:19:31 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > what is meant by 'your beloved' country? > > > > don't you stay in this country? > > > > is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? > > > > are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com> > > > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; > > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: > > > > [Reader-list] gujrat election> Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why > > > > Pakistan? People have migrated to African countries, West Indese, > European > > > > countries, North American countries, South East Asian countries and > so > > > > many other nooks and corners of the world to get rid of your beloved > > > > > country. Are they all Muslims? If you yourself are not already abroad at the > > > > > moment, will not waste a second thought as soon as the opportunity comes > > > > > your way. So the majority of those who migrate, which religion they are? > > > > > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the other hand just consider the loving Hindus of > > > > Gujarat when they were > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and > > > > slogan "Su che saru che> Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was > > > > the order of the day and > Muslims had > > > > no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena > > > > for their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > sentiments. > > > > How do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai? > > > > Do they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? Those who you > > > > think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood just > > > > for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I > > > > support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard core > > > > hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath yatra > > > > and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should be > > > > the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to power? > > > > Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership of > > > > which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya > > > > Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > > > > > To: < bawazainab79 at gmail.com>; < > > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>; > < reader-list at sarai.net>> Sent: > > > > Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > > > > election> > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if > > > > you don't find india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to > > > > pakistan.> >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well > > > > but they > > never understand their responsibilities.they never > > > > understand their own > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? > > > > who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning > > > > this country on religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, > > > > given equal rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by > > > > hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to > > > > build ram temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if > > > > you too are the sons of this soil, > > > > why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your > > > > ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this > > > > earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it very well > > > > that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are > > > > trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from > > > > sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your > > > > chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere > > > > because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for > > > > reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then > > > > that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform > > > > civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields > > > > in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never > > > > faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this > > > > 'false > > > > > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > > > > > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been > > > > taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am > > > > sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take > > > > action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to > > > > garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims > > > > but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat > > > > so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is > > > > politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & > > > > seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if > > > > not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation > > > > building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try > > > > to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > Date: > > > > Tue, 25 Dec > > > > 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > > > > > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > > > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear > > > > Vedavati,> > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks > > > > about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > > > > equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take > > > > stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt > > > > muslim > > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left > > > > after > > brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and > > > > when you > > have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day > > > > you are > > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is > > > > your > > primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or > > > > voice > > left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > > > > > participated in the 1992-93 riots in > > > > Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken > > > > against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra > > > > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in mass > > > > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to be > > > > in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed to be > > > > aligned.> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, > > > > Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab, 'india > > > > is a secular country and will remain a secular country > > only because of > > > > majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who had > > > > voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india after > > > > partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread & butter > > > > was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too > > > > followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave > > > > reservations to bc, obcs, by > > > > reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs & > > > > obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities from > > > > muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir hussain, > > > > shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... all of > > > > them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular among > > > > hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > descrimination, > > > > indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed carrot of > > > > 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they can't > > > > hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. modi does not > > > > 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including > > > > bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, > > > > hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former > > > > because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. this > > > > secularism practised by > > > > congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus. > > > > terrorists are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is talking > > > > about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like soharabuddin > > > > is killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what about > > > > 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter hindus cannot > > > > be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! vedavati> > > > > >> >> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: > > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > > > > electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC : > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> > > > > >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who > > > > are facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > > > > > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > > > > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, > > > > when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. > > > > in other words, > > it is humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims has > > > > yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass when > > > > there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single > > > > movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > > > > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > > > > > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > Whenever > > > > Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > but not > > > > Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > the > > > > world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > > > > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.netthat all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. > > > > Whenever Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and > > > > not religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> > > > > >> > Don't you think > > > > that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > > > > > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > > > > > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if > > > > there is no strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and > > > > voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... > > > > Declaring Quran as > > words of God and then putting killing into action in > > > > the name of same God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is > > > > what is happening > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have > > > > intruded in the nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to > > > > indulge into what they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them > > > > brothers... The day Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the > > > > day Muslims would start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. > > > > the Muslim would join the festivals > > of their brothers... the secularism > > > > would meet > > > > its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would > > > > not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > > > > > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > > > > > > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe > > > > Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > ----- > > > > Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa < bawazainab79 at gmail.com>To: > > > > > > TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com>Cc: > > > > reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: > > > > Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > > > > electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am still a > > > > bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as for > > > > formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the > > > > country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus are not > > > > Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for > > > > my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that > > > > Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > thatModi's > > > > victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again, > > > > apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On > > > > Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > > > > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > > > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > > > > > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> > > > > > > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > > > > > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat > > > > > > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> > > > > > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May > > > > > > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > > > > > > next > > > > time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > > >> To: ; < tapasrayx at gmail.com>> > > Sent: > > > > Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > > > > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > > > > > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > > > > > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > > > > > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > > > > > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> > > > > > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > > > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > > > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > > > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > > > > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an > > > > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the > > > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: > > > > < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > > > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > > > > > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > > > > > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in > > > > the > > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > > > > > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > > > city.Critiques & > > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: < > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > Never miss > > > > a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.> >> >> > Live the life in style with MSN > > > > Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!> > > > > > _________________________________________________________________> > Post > > > > free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in> > > > > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219> > > > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion > > > > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: > > > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in > > > > the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > > > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > > > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919... > > > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From apnawritings at yahoo.co.in Fri Jan 4 15:38:16 2008 From: apnawritings at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:08:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Foucault as a genealogist : The case for (non) archives Message-ID: <21581.14969.qm@web8514.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear friends, Now atlast I'm geared up to rise and make reviews of sentences we talked and questions we answered or left them out at our last meeting in Delhi. First my conversation with mahmood farooqui and this is simultaneously for Sadan Jha and Ritwik Bhattacharya ( our own Kolkata archive theorist) as well ( having read Sadan's stuff on archive in CENSOR..book etc. and Ritwik's research on the archive and our own debate whether pornography could have an archival living or not). Does philosophical history need archival materials? Does genealogy need archives? My answer is an unequivocal "No". I'll go into the speculated details in my next post-- a bit of detail, that is. But I'll first submit to Mahmood farooqui and my friends to reread Foucault's 'Nietzsche, genealogy and History' because there is stuff for both sides and I think Foucault simply puts his own oeuvre down by claiming a case for vast source materials once and then declaiming by saying archival materials have their origin in a sort of non archival trace. I'll argue, we could start by asking again, whether the necessity of archives arises from within the archives. If not, what are the consequences? And another hint,Foucault is helped by Nietzsche here, but consider Nietzsche's career as a genealogist( e.g of values): how much of a source materialist he was, how deeply referential? Lets get onto the game, the outwork once more. Un happy new year to all arnab 5, 50, 500, 5000 - Store N number of mails in your inbox. Go to http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html From apnawritings at yahoo.co.in Fri Jan 4 16:17:59 2008 From: apnawritings at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:47:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Foucault as a genealogist : Response to Sadan In-Reply-To: <1884c028ab5bfca71b20395c03fb1798@sarai.net> Message-ID: <531158.37361.qm@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Sadan, Thank you! Your prompt response actually begins the discussion where I gues others will soon join in and we shall all learn and unlearn from each other in a very very creative way. You do recognise Foucault and I think let us limit ourselves to a few texts in the beginning. I shall keep aside Derrida and Agamben on archives, since none of them claimed to have been practising genealogy like Foucault. And my hunch was simply this : to involve many who have been doing things on archives etc and make such an involved statement as you've done. It is not a comment on yr text in the Censor book. But your one might be engaged later while we discuss memory vis a vis Foucault and Nietzsche. I'm perturbed by one question here and let me state that for all : genealogy has a problem with origins ( singular or not) and therefore distrusts history but still Foucault calls for heavy documentation using volatile sources : What is the difference between sources and origins? And Sadan, neither I'm making a case for the non existence of archives. I'm far from making any such logistical suggestions, I'm troubled by the compulsion with which the question of the archive is driven at some who have been trying to practise something else.This question remains to be settled, yes I am sincere here and I can quote you major incidents here and abroad. Let us try to find a way out. So, its purely an academic question for me and I think all of us. More soon love arnab --- "sadan at sarai.net" wrote: > Dear Arnab, > thanks for suggestion to reread Foucault on > archives. Agamben may be > another person to consider in this excercise. Tow > quick respond, we also > need to read Foucault's geneology, Nietzsche... as a > point in between his > earlier 'Archeology' and his lecutures... and then > his power/knowledge. > The point i was trying to raise in my article though > is not whether we need > archives or not but how archives can be profitably > seen from vantage points > of different sets of people. > thanks. > sadan. > > On 4:53 pm 01/03/08 ARNAB CHATTERJEE > wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Now atlast I'm geared up to rise and make > > reviews of sentences we talked and questions we > > answered or left them out at our last meeting in > > Delhi. > > First my conversation with mahmood farooqui and > this > > is simultaneously for Sadan Jha and Ritwik > > Bhattacharya ( our own Kolkata archive theorist) > as > > well ( having read sadan's stuff on archive in > > CENSOR..book etc. and Ritwik's research on the > archive > > and our own debate ehether pornography could have > an > > archival living or not). Does philosophical > history > > need archival materials? Does genealogy need > archives? > > My answer is unequivocal "No". I'll go into the > > speculated details in my next post-- a bit of > detail, > > that is. But I'll first submit to mahmood farooqui > and > > my friends to reread Foucault's 'Nietzsche, > genealogy > > and History' because there is stuff for both sides > and > > I think Foucault simply puts his own oeuvre down > by > > claiming a case for vast source materials once and > > then declaiming by saying archival materials have > > their origin in a sort of non archival trace. I'll > > argue, we could start by asking again , whether > the > > necessity of archives arises from within the > archives. > > If not, what are the consequences? > > And another hint,Foucault is helped by Nietzsche > here, > > but consider Nietzsche's career as a genealogist( > e.g > > of values): how much of a source materialist he > was, > > how deep referential? > > > > Lets get onto the game, the outwork once more. > > Un happy new year to all > > arnab > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail > storage is just a > > click away. Go to > https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register From prem.cnt at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 17:12:06 2008 From: prem.cnt at gmail.com (Prem Chandavarkar) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 17:12:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Foucault as a genealogist : Response to Sadan In-Reply-To: <531158.37361.qm@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <1884c028ab5bfca71b20395c03fb1798@sarai.net> <531158.37361.qm@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7e230b560801040342q5e3f9c12r2ad31694e5f449a1@mail.gmail.com> Are we not confusing two questions here which need to be kept separate: 1. Do we need archives? 2. Are archives neutral? The answer to each question could be different. We would probably say yes to the first and no to the second. In which case we confront the need for a critical and discerning alertness when we consider archives. Which raises some other questions such as: 1. What are the ethical dimensions and compulsions of this alertness? 2. How does it shape the discipline of history? 3. How does it determine what we consider an archive? 4. How does it determine where we search for archives? Regards, Prem On 04/01/2008, ARNAB CHATTERJEE wrote: > > Dear Sadan, > Thank you! Your prompt response actually > begins the discussion where I gues others will soon > join in and we shall all learn and unlearn from each > other in a very very creative way. > You do recognise Foucault and I think let us limit > ourselves to a few texts in the beginning. I shall > keep aside Derrida and Agamben on archives, since none > of them claimed to have been practising genealogy like > Foucault. And my hunch was simply this : to involve > many who have been doing things on archives etc and > make such an involved statement as you've done. It is > not a comment on yr text in the Censor book. But your > one might be engaged later while we discuss memory vis > a vis Foucault and Nietzsche. I'm perturbed by one > question here and let me state that for all : > genealogy has a problem with origins ( singular or > not) and therefore distrusts history but still > Foucault calls for heavy documentation using volatile > sources : What is the difference between sources and > origins? > And Sadan, neither I'm making a case for the non > existence of archives. I'm far from making any such > logistical suggestions, I'm troubled by the compulsion > with which the question of the archive is driven at > some who have been trying to practise something > else.This question remains to be settled, yes I am > sincere here and I can quote you major incidents here > and abroad. Let us try to find a way out. > So, its purely an academic question for me and I think > all of us. > More soon > love > arnab > > > > > --- "sadan at sarai.net" wrote: > > > Dear Arnab, > > thanks for suggestion to reread Foucault on > > archives. Agamben may be > > another person to consider in this excercise. Tow > > quick respond, we also > > need to read Foucault's geneology, Nietzsche... as a > > point in between his > > earlier 'Archeology' and his lecutures... and then > > his power/knowledge. > > The point i was trying to raise in my article though > > is not whether we need > > archives or not but how archives can be profitably > > seen from vantage points > > of different sets of people. > > thanks. > > sadan. > > > > On 4:53 pm 01/03/08 ARNAB CHATTERJEE > > wrote: > > > Dear friends, > > > Now atlast I'm geared up to rise and make > > > reviews of sentences we talked and questions we > > > answered or left them out at our last meeting in > > > Delhi. > > > First my conversation with mahmood farooqui and > > this > > > is simultaneously for Sadan Jha and Ritwik > > > Bhattacharya ( our own Kolkata archive theorist) > > as > > > well ( having read sadan's stuff on archive in > > > CENSOR..book etc. and Ritwik's research on the > > archive > > > and our own debate ehether pornography could have > > an > > > archival living or not). Does philosophical > > history > > > need archival materials? Does genealogy need > > archives? > > > My answer is unequivocal "No". I'll go into the > > > speculated details in my next post-- a bit of > > detail, > > > that is. But I'll first submit to mahmood farooqui > > and > > > my friends to reread Foucault's 'Nietzsche, > > genealogy > > > and History' because there is stuff for both sides > > and > > > I think Foucault simply puts his own oeuvre down > > by > > > claiming a case for vast source materials once and > > > then declaiming by saying archival materials have > > > their origin in a sort of non archival trace. I'll > > > argue, we could start by asking again , whether > > the > > > necessity of archives arises from within the > > archives. > > > If not, what are the consequences? > > > And another hint,Foucault is helped by Nietzsche > > here, > > > but consider Nietzsche's career as a genealogist( > > e.g > > > of values): how much of a source materialist he > > was, > > > how deep referential? > > > > > > Lets get onto the game, the outwork once more. > > > Un happy new year to all > > > arnab > > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail > > storage is just a > > > click away. Go to > > https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click > away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From apnawritings at yahoo.co.in Fri Jan 4 18:47:01 2008 From: apnawritings at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 13:17:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Foucault as a genealogist : Response to Prem In-Reply-To: <7e230b560801040342q5e3f9c12r2ad31694e5f449a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <315880.20806.qm@web8511.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Prem, I think the questions are already separate and needs to be rephrased if you want it the way you've put it. 1. The question is not whether WE need archives or not( there are many things which exist even if we don't need them); lets talk in terms of practices and ask, infact that is what I've asked, what sort of practices need archives?What sort of practices don't need them? Does philosophical history ( I have in mind the Hegelian or the Kantian kind) need the archival backing? Does Nietzschean or Foucauldean genealogy need it? With all its distrust of origins, what is the status of the use of sources in Foucault? ( Mahmood for instance asked, will the Foucauldian enterprise remain intact if his source materialiastic resources are removed? I think yes but many will say no, lets discuss it . What is the difference between origins and sources? --and join in other questions I've already asked and has been asked by many of us and others. 2. Secondly, in response to the phrasing of your second question, let me tell you and all, the answer we would like to know is not whether archives are neutral or not ( You know and have told the answer), but whether the question of neutrality can itself be based on the archives. Your other questions stand automatically modified in regard to the revision of your two questions I've made. It'll be great if you attempt to answer them for us. Thanking you with apologies for making frequent postings ( even though I'm not a hindu right)but immediate responses I guess will put the debate in perspective and maintain it.) Arnab --- Prem Chandavarkar wrote: > Are we not confusing two questions here which need > to be kept separate: > 1. Do we need archives? > 2. Are archives neutral? > The answer to each question could be different. We > would probably say yes to > the first and no to the second. In which case we > confront the need for a > critical and discerning alertness when we consider > archives. Which raises > some other questions such as: > 1. What are the ethical dimensions and compulsions > of this alertness? > 2. How does it shape the discipline of history? > 3. How does it determine what we consider an > archive? > 4. How does it determine where we search for > archives? > > Regards, > Prem > > > On 04/01/2008, ARNAB CHATTERJEE > wrote: > > > > Dear Sadan, > > Thank you! Your prompt response > actually > > begins the discussion where I gues others will > soon > > join in and we shall all learn and unlearn from > each > > other in a very very creative way. > > You do recognise Foucault and I think let us limit > > ourselves to a few texts in the beginning. I shall > > keep aside Derrida and Agamben on archives, since > none > > of them claimed to have been practising genealogy > like > > Foucault. And my hunch was simply this : to > involve > > many who have been doing things on archives etc > and > > make such an involved statement as you've done. It > is > > not a comment on yr text in the Censor book. But > your > > one might be engaged later while we discuss memory > vis > > a vis Foucault and Nietzsche. I'm perturbed by one > > question here and let me state that for all : > > genealogy has a problem with origins ( singular or > > not) and therefore distrusts history but still > > Foucault calls for heavy documentation using > volatile > > sources : What is the difference between sources > and > > origins? > > And Sadan, neither I'm making a case for the > non > > existence of archives. I'm far from making any > such > > logistical suggestions, I'm troubled by the > compulsion > > with which the question of the archive is driven > at > > some who have been trying to practise something > > else.This question remains to be settled, yes I am > > sincere here and I can quote you major incidents > here > > and abroad. Let us try to find a way out. > > So, its purely an academic question for me and I > think > > all of us. > > More soon > > love > > arnab > > > > > > > > > > --- "sadan at sarai.net" wrote: > > > > > Dear Arnab, > > > thanks for suggestion to reread Foucault on > > > archives. Agamben may be > > > another person to consider in this excercise. > Tow > > > quick respond, we also > > > need to read Foucault's geneology, Nietzsche... > as a > > > point in between his > > > earlier 'Archeology' and his lecutures... and > then > > > his power/knowledge. > > > The point i was trying to raise in my article > though > > > is not whether we need > > > archives or not but how archives can be > profitably > > > seen from vantage points > > > of different sets of people. > > > thanks. > > > sadan. > > > > > > On 4:53 pm 01/03/08 ARNAB CHATTERJEE > > > wrote: > > > > Dear friends, > > > > Now atlast I'm geared up to rise and > make > > > > reviews of sentences we talked and questions > we > > > > answered or left them out at our last meeting > in > > > > Delhi. > > > > First my conversation with mahmood farooqui > and > > > this > > > > is simultaneously for Sadan Jha and Ritwik > > > > Bhattacharya ( our own Kolkata archive > theorist) > > > as > > > > well ( having read sadan's stuff on archive > in > > > > CENSOR..book etc. and Ritwik's research on the > > > archive > > > > and our own debate ehether pornography could > have > > > an > > > > archival living or not). Does philosophical > > > history > > > > need archival materials? Does genealogy need > > > archives? > > > > My answer is unequivocal "No". I'll go into > the > > > > speculated details in my next post-- a bit of > > > detail, > > > > that is. But I'll first submit to mahmood > farooqui > > > and > > > > my friends to reread Foucault's 'Nietzsche, > > > genealogy > > > > and History' because there is stuff for both > sides > > > and > > > > I think Foucault simply puts his own oeuvre > down > > > by > > > > claiming a case for vast source materials once > and > > > > then declaiming by saying archival materials > have > > > > their origin in a sort of non archival trace. > I'll > > > > argue, we could start by asking again , > whether > > > the > > > > necessity of archives arises from within the > > > archives. > > > > If not, what are the consequences? > > > > And another hint,Foucault is helped by > Nietzsche > > > here, > > > > but consider Nietzsche's career as a > genealogist( > > > e.g > > > > of values): how much of a source materialist > he > > > was, > > > > how deep referential? > > > > > > > > Lets get onto the game, the outwork once > more. > > > > Un happy new year to all > > > > arnab > > > > > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail > > > storage is just a > > > > click away. Go to > > > > https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail > storage is just a click > > away. Go to > https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups From iram at sarai.net Sat Jan 5 02:22:11 2008 From: iram at sarai.net (iram at sarai.net) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 02:22:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Technical issues with the list Message-ID: Dear all, There is a technical problem in the reader list administrative interface, because of which many of you may not have received your list postings regularly for the last ten days or so. The 'awaiting moderator approval' message, as we have said before is an automated response by the list in case of the following: The message is not in plain text The message contains an attachment (.doc, .rtf, .jpg) The subject header is not clear The message is by a non member The message has been blind CCed The recipient list is very long and in case of an admin interface problem. We are trying to resolve the technical issue with the reader list asap, but those of us who have been members for sometime are aware that such problems do happen. The technical support team is looking into the matter. Please bear with us. Warm regards, Iram (On behalf the list admin) From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 12:56:54 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 12:56:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <906168.11945.qm@web90411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <906168.11945.qm@web90411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32144e990801042326q66ca116ax923716b994fa0565@mail.gmail.com> Dear Chanchal, My eyes are open, and there are many things I see - perhaps differently from you, but then we all have our own perceptions. You see Kashmir going and I see s troubled state limping back to peace so that Pandits can at least visit their homes now. You see Godhra or Babri or the anti-Sikh riots in Delhi after Indira Gandhi's assassination as 'Hindu versus Muslim' and I see it as political parties and other vested interests making mileage for votes - spreading hatred for the seat that they hold more dear than truth. It's like the way I love my parents (or my friends, for that matter) - not because they are Hindu's, but because they are my parents and friends, and I have many friends of different religions. You talk of helping 'mother's and sisters' but ignore the fact that 'Hindu' India has brought the sex ratio so low because of the Hindu obsession for a son - where is the regard for womenfolk. Look at the matrimonials any day and see the disgusting call for 'fair' brides or the fact that women in Delhi consider themselves the most unsafe than the rest of India or the dreadful molestation case in Mumbai recently - surely you can't picture them as 'Muslims and Christians' who did this. Where is this picture of 'Hinduism' you are talking about? 10 years back? 20 years back? 30 years back? 100 years back? How far back do you want to go? Do we throw out electricity, computers, and all these manifestations of 'modernity and the west' along with jeans, music and a host of other 'foreign' manifestations? Do we close our borders and shut out the world? We are here today in this century and can't go back. What we can do is go forward with a clear mind as to where we want to reach. And I certainly don't want to reach a place where India is a 'Hindu' nation with strict caste segregation (which is an integral part of Hindusim). I certainly do not want to be forced to admit people as 'higher' or 'lower' than me because of their parental name. As for 'Sex Education' being non-Indian. Look at the Indian art in it's depiction of human form. Look at what the sub-continent was before and after the colonisation. You say that you don't want to talk to children about sex - well, I have 3 children and I certainly want them to know about HIV and unsafe sex. If they don't, it'll be leaving them free to walk on a highway without teaching them about traffic. As a father, I can't leave them in the way of harm without doing something to protect them. What 'Nation' are you talking about? The India I know and love has people from different regions, languages, religions. It has foreigners who chant 'Hare Krishna' (who actually should be below the lowest caste - yet our fascination for the 'fair' puts them in high esteem!!). It has tribals who believe in 'Yakshas and Yakshis', it has Anglo Indians whoo stayed behind when the British left, it has Chinese - it has people who fell in love with the inclusivity of india and not the exclusivity that seems to interest you. That's the India I come from. Where's yours? Rgds, Partha ........................ On Jan 4, 2008 11:41 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: > Dear sir, > Open your eyes, I again say... > > Kashmir is gone from our hand... Read the newspaper of today... > Now Karar is coming with demand of separate currency there... Do you think > it is possible without separation... > For your information again, thousands of Hindu women were kept captive and > put to Harem when Hindus were massacred and thrown out of Kashmir... > You say you are a Hindu... do you then say that those women are not your > mothers or sisters... Go get them.. if you cannot, then at least join hands > to protect the remaining... > > Do you think Godhra was possible without more than thousand Muslims coming > together to burn a full group of Hindus in a bogie... Do you think in > Achalpur (Maharashtra) the whole group of Hindus were thrown out of their > region for celebrating Durga puja.. > > It has just started man... They are getting powerful... > And you are unnecessarily standing divided - some in the name of Caste > others in the hoax of secularism... > > Join to protect the nation... > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Partha Dasgupta > To: Pawan Durani > Cc: sarai list > Sent: Friday, January 4, 2008 10:38:51 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > Hi, > > That's great. However, it leaves an even bigger confusion as to which part > of Ahimoolam's response you found 'anti Hindu'. > > Rgds, Partha > ................ > > On Jan 4, 2008 10:35 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Partha , > > > > If some people have an interpretation of society , it may be termed as a > > personal view. I believe a Dalit is as much a Hindu as a Brahmin or a > > Kshytra is.And I believe that all those who lure poor with money to > > convert should be stopped as well. > > > > And me , though being a Brahmin by birth , never believed that I stood > > between a human and God. Neither were we taught so by our parents. > > > > Pawan > > > > On 1/4/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > > > Like many others, had got unsubscribed from Sarai, so just went ahead > > > and re-subscribed, and got tons of mail a few days late - which was > quite > > > interesting as I got to see viewpoints and counterpoints without > reacting. > > > > > > Anyhow, to get to the point I was going to make - I'm sure you'll > agree > > > with me that Chanchal's argument was extremely unfounded in fact based > on > > > some dreamlike vision she has of 'Hinduism'. > > > > > > 1. Sex education > > > It is a well known fact that prudism in the form of the > insistence > > > of blouses > > > (which were unknown in rural Bengal from my childhood) or pants > > > instead > > > of lungi's and dhoti's were a direct influence of the British > > > hangover for what > > > they considered 'proper'. Go through ancient Indian art, and > there > > > are countless > > > instances that will prove this to you. > > > > > > 2. Reservations > > > Per se, for India as to move forward - it has to move forward as > a > > > whole from > > > the villages to the towns to the cities. Also, it is a known fact > > > that 'lower castes' > > > are still dominated in areas and that is accepted. Hindu as I may > > > be from birth, > > > I refuse to agree with anyone who may claim that s/he is higher > (or > > > lower) than > > > me because of their ancestral name. I'm sure you'll agree that > just > > > because > > > some one is born a Brahmin does not denote that they are > > > automatically > > > superhumans endowed with special powers. Similarly, just because > > > someone > > > is a Dalit does not mean that they are mentally or physically > > > incapable. > > > And I have personally met people at all levels who are capable > (and > > > incapable) > > > irrespective of caste. The ex-King of Nepal is a prime example of > a > > > bad high caste > > > ruler. Then if capable 'Lower Castes' have been kept down, > doesn't > > > the Indian Nation > > > need them to be empowered so that India can achieve it's > greatness? > > > > > > 3. Foreign Investments > > > The investments may be from 'Islamic States' or Indian Muslims. > The > > > bigger evil > > > (though this is a personal opinion) is the people in India who > > > cheat the state and the > > > law of this land and misuse public money / property - from > > > Nandigram to the Registrar > > > of Societies in Delhi who fleeced the nation. Foreign money is > > > subject to many > > > regulations and checks - and if there is a misuse, we should look > > > at catching the > > > people who are supposed to administrate it for public good. > > > > > > > > > 4. Charas, Ganja & Afeem were known as 'Nawabi Showk' well before the > > > British came > > > into India. Charas and Ganja especially are copiously consumed on > > > Shiv Ratri in India. > > > Weakness or addiction has nothing to do with religion, caste or > > > gender - it is purely > > > a personal problem that can afflict anyone. > > > > > > I could go on and on about the misinformed statements of Chanchal, > which > > > I'm sure you would also agree are completely skewed. However, as a > Hindu > > > (atleast notionally - since I do not believe that any Brahmin has the > right > > > to stand between God and me) I do have a problem with someone telling > me > > > what I should believe about how a Hindu should believe / behave / > think. As > > > a thinking individual and an adult, it is my right to follow my > personal > > > belief - all the more so when faced with an incoherent, immature and > totally > > > unfounded argument that you seem to agree with (and I say 'seem to > agree > > > with' since you answer Ahimoolam's irritation with bland statements > that > > > signify unless we subscribe to Chanchal's rant we are 'anti Hindu') > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > .......................... > > > > > > On Jan 3, 2008 10:12 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > Hello Adhimoolan , > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I forgot that this Forum was supposed to be anti Hindu and there are > > > > many who have deviated. Please dont write anything pro hindu . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It hurts > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > God Bless.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/26/07, Vetrivel Adhimoolam wrote: > > > > > > > > > I realized the need for applying junk e-mail filter. It's amazing > > > > > that a forum like this gets easily highjacked by the Hindu > fundamentalist > > > > > forces. The return of barbarism. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > *From:* chanchal malviya > > > > > > > > > > *To:* Vedavati Jogi ; reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > > > > *Cc:* sudhakar.koppu at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:48 AM > > > > > > > > > > *Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are huge breaking force acting on our Nation > > > > > 1. With the influence of foreigh missionnaries and investors, > > > > > Science is taking tool to introduce concepts like Sex Education in > Children > > > > > - the target is next generation should be destroyed. Current > generation has > > > > > already met the target of not respecting the nation and running > heedlessly > > > > > towards whatever they like. they cannot withstand pressure, nor > are the > > > > > brave enough to take bold decisions. they want money and they want > wine and > > > > > girls around in the name freedom. > > > > > > > > > > 2. Govt. policies like Reservations are breaking the nation to > > > > > pieces, separating people from people. > > > > > 3. Chrisitian missionnaries are converting the Hindus to > Christians > > > > > at a ver fast pace > > > > > 4. Muslims are being intruded (from Bangladesh in particular) in > all > > > > > parts, increasing their population so as to become the majority > and declare > > > > > the nation as Islamic state > > > > > 5. Foreign investments from Islamic state are continuously buying > > > > > lands through local Muslims > > > > > 6. Charas, Ganja, Afeem, other drugs along with Arms and > Ammunitions > > > > > are being continuously coming across Pakistan and Bangladesh > borders. Arms > > > > > are provided to Islamic groups and Naxals. Drugs are provided to > sex > > > > > educated children of careless parents. > > > > > 7. Muslims are in target of Islamic conversions, continuously > > > > > marrying Hindus girls - Hindus girls are not able to understand > that it is > > > > > they who are converted to Islam and the boy is never accepting > Hinduism - > > > > > Why? If it was love, we would have found conversions in this field > happening > > > > > in both area. > > > > > 8. Indian intellectuals are continuously exported to Foreign > > > > > countries (IIT, IIM, and all good institute students), ensuring > that they do > > > > > not work for India > > > > > 9. Export of our Food Items is increasing when prices are hiking > in > > > > > our own country. > > > > > 10. Poverty now seem to be the property of minority alone - when > > > > > actually, no minority is under poverty - most of them are on > target to > > > > > achieve this nation as a group. > > > > > > > > > > There are so many things happening in this nation from years. And > > > > > now there is only one agenda - kill Hinduism, ask the Youth to be > secular > > > > > and attack Hinduism - because Hindus destroyed is India taken > over. > > > > > > > > > > Open your eyes, O Hindus - this is not a religion when you talk > > > > > Hinduism. It is the only philosophy that is humanity. What you see > as > > > > > differences are actually political move to break the nation apart. > Do not > > > > > get moved by such irrationality. have the gut to see beyond the > screen, have > > > > > the intelligence to understand beyond what is highlighted in news. > > > > > > > > > > Jai Hind, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:19:31 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what is meant by 'your beloved' country? > > > > > don't you stay in this country? > > > > > is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? > > > > > are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com> > > > > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; > > > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: > > > > > [Reader-list] gujrat election> Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 > -0500> > Why > > > > > Pakistan? People have migrated to African countries, West Indese, > > European > > > > > countries, North American countries, South East Asian countries > and > so > > > > > many other nooks and corners of the world to get rid of your > beloved > > > > > > country. Are they all Muslims? If you yourself are not already > abroad at the > > > > > > moment, will not waste a second thought as soon as the > opportunity comes > > > > > > your way. So the majority of those who migrate, which religion > they are? > > > > > > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the other hand just consider the loving > Hindus of > > > > > Gujarat when they were > fighting with their hindu Maratha > brothers, and > > > > > slogan "Su che saru che> Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. > Violence was > > > > > the order of the day and > Muslims had > > > > > no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > > Sena > > > > > for their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > > sentiments. > > > > > How do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > > Mumbai? > > > > > Do they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? > Those who you > > > > > think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's > blood just > > > > > for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who > should I > > > > > support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her > hard core > > > > > hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started > rath yatra > > > > > and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he > should be > > > > > the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back > to power? > > > > > Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > > leadership of > > > > > which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > > Mehta? Maya > > > > > Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > > > > > > To: < bawazainab79 at gmail.com>; < > > > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>; > < reader-list at sarai.net>> Sent: > > > > > Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] > gujrat > > > > > election> > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you > here. if > > > > > you don't find india a good place to live > > in you can anytime > migrate to > > > > > pakistan.> >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their > rights well > > > > > but they > > never understand their responsibilities.they never > > > > > understand their own > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started > 1992-93 riots? > > > > > who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after > partitioning > > > > > this country on religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay > in india, > > > > > given equal rights rather more rights- was is > > not a > magnonimity shown by > > > > > hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu > brothers to > > > > > build ram temple at the place where > > babri structure once > stood?> >> > if > > > > > you too are the sons of this soil, > > > > > why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your > > > > > ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country > on this > > > > > earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it > very well > > > > > that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other > children who are > > > > > trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped > muslims from > > > > > sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your > > > > > chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > > anywhere > > > > > because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > > for > > > > > reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the > poor then > > > > > that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you > accept uniform > > > > > civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in > various fields > > > > > in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. > they never > > > > > faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then > why this > > > > > 'false > > > > > > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it > if > > > > > > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action > has been > > > > > taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, > and i am > > > > > sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to > take > > > > > action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do > everything to > > > > > garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment > of muslims > > > > > but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created > in gujrat > > > > > so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this > is > > > > > politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these > politicians & > > > > > seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely > secualr if > > > > > not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for > nation > > > > > building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of > then try > > > > > to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > > Date: > > > > > Tue, 25 Dec > > > > > 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > > > > > > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat > electionCC: > > > > > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear > > > > > Vedavati,> > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead > he talks > > > > > about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does > not > > > > > equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not > hesitate to take > > > > > stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not > hurt > > > > > muslim > > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any > sentiments left > > > > > after > > brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is > killed and > > > > > when you > > have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where > each day > > > > > you are > > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of > whether that is > > > > > your > > primary identity or not), you think there can be any > sentiment or > > > > > voice > > left? What do you have to say to the fact that all > 'Muslims' who > > > > > > > participated in the 1992-93 riots in > > > > > Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken > > > > > against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because > Maharashtra > > > > > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will > result in mass > > > > > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state > to be > > > > > in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are > assumed to be > > > > > aligned.> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 > 11:32 AM, > > > > > Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab, > 'india > > > > > is a secular country and will remain a secular country > > only > because of > > > > > majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims > who had > > > > > voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in > india after > > > > > partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread & > butter > > > > > was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > > congress too > > > > > followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave > > > > > reservations to bc, obcs, by > > > > > reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs & > > > > > obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities > from > > > > > muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir > hussain, > > > > > shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... > all of > > > > > them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular > among > > > > > hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > > descrimination, > > > > > indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed > carrot of > > > > > 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. > they can't > > > > > hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. > modi does not > > > > > 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis > (including > > > > > bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common > muslims, > > > > > hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the > former > > > > > because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. > this > > > > > secularism practised by > > > > > congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus. > > > > > terrorists are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is > talking > > > > > about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like > soharabuddin > > > > > is killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what > about > > > > > 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter > hindus cannot > > > > > be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! > vedavati> > > > > > >> >> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: > > > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > > > > > electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC : > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> > >> > > > > > >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is > Hindus who > > > > > are facing the > > problem of communalism on their own > motherland..> > > > > > > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, > it is > > > > > > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in > it..> > So, > > > > > when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. > > > > > in other words, > > it is humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims > has > > > > > yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > > mass when > > > > > there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not > a single > > > > > movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist > attacks...> > > > > > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever > said a word > > > > > > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > > Whenever > > > > > Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > > but not > > > > > Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > > the > > > > > world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > > > > > > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on > irf.netthat all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of > it.. > > > > > > Whenever Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt > with law and > > > > > not religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all > people's win...> > > > > > >> > Don't you think > > > > > that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > > > > > > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West > Bengal > > > > > > > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists > (and if > > > > > there is no strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, > hatred and > > > > > voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of > Quran... > > > > > Declaring Quran as > > words of God and then putting killing into > action in > > > > > the name of same God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of > years this is > > > > > what is happening > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they > who have > > > > > intruded in the nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into > Arabia to > > > > > indulge into what they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call > them > > > > > brothers... The day Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as > brothers... the > > > > > day Muslims would start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their > brothers.. > > > > > the Muslim would join the festivals > > of their brothers... the > secularism > > > > > would meet > > > > > its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot > would > > > > > not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken > place...> > > > > > > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is > expected > > > > > > > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus > believe > > > > > Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > > ----- > > > > > Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa < bawazainab79 at gmail.com > >To: > > > > > > > TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com>Cc %3ECc>: > > > > > reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com > >Sent: > > > > > Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] > gujrat > > > > > electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I > am still a > > > > > bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? > as for > > > > > formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across > the > > > > > country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all > Gujjus are not > > > > > Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize > for > > > > > my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim > that > > > > > Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > > thatModi's > > > > > victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > > > 'Hindustan'?Again, > > > > > apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) > On > > > > > Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > > > > > > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. > Ask the > > > > > > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi > "Brahmin ka> > > > > > > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu > terrorist Advani> > > > > > > > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or > pseudo > > > > > > > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in > Gujarat > > > > > > > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, > Hindus have> > > > > > > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil > loses. > May > > > > > > > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your > mouth> > > > > > > > next > > > > > time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > > vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > > > >> To: ; < tapasrayx at gmail.com>> > > Sent: > > > > > Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > > > > > > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > > > > > > > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i > hope > > > > > > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't > always > > > > > > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the > world that > > > > > > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > > vedavati> >> > > > > > > > >> > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > > > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > > > > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > > > > > > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & > Collaborations > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an > > > > > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in > the > > > > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List > archive: > > > > > < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > > > > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open > discussion > > > > > > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To > subscribe: > > > > > > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in > > > > > the > > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > >_________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > > > > city.Critiques & > > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > > > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: < > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > Never > miss > > > > > a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.> >> >> > Live the life in style > with MSN > > > > > Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!> > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > Post > > > > > free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in> > > > > > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219> > > > > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > discussion > > > > > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To > subscribe: > > > > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe > in > > > > > the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List > archive: > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > > > > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > > > > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > +919... > > > > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ------------------------------ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From sadan at sarai.net Sat Jan 5 11:24:35 2008 From: sadan at sarai.net (sadan at sarai.net) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 11:24:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Foucault as a genealogist : Response to Prem In-Reply-To: <315880.20806.qm@web8511.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <315880.20806.qm@web8511.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Arnab and Prem, Let me spell out my concern about archives(concern about archives is different then making an arguement to have archives). I am not advocating for archives. You may find this statement quite provocative, specially coming from a person who respect archives and have spent considerable time engaged with activities that are considered archival work in one or other way. Both Arnab and Prem's questions are related to the need of having archives and compulsion to have archives (in context of certain practices). Arnab, I do recognice that you can use these as departure points for a very creative and fruitful discussion on geneology, memory and history. And, I look forward to it. And, we can also get a fresh insight on what is archives. For me this question is a matter of secondary importance. I want to draw distinction (not by seperating but by treating the two differently) between the idea of archives as recognised in the discipline of history and practices associated with this idea outside the discipline of history. By confining my objective to this philosophically mundane aspect, I wish to achive a tension not between what is disciplinary and non-disciplinary practices but between the usages associated with the idea of an archives. This tension can be reduced by attacking the very basis of the binary, by making the binary appear ridicule in itself. The difficult part is how to sustain and why to sustain this tension. How to blow the idea from within? Within--what? within its own difinitional, practiced criterions. But, for what purpose? To achieve a new set of understanding or to complicate the issue further...? In a way I am not interested in what Foucault has said at a particular point of time. This is not because he himself used to laugh at his earlier positions( power/knowledge). For him the question was different, for Derrida and Agamben the question is different. Please correct me if I am wrong but, my reading is that both Foucault and Derrida are not interested in whether archives is needed or not. for both of them archives is given, apriori, a trace. However, for both of them this apriori is devoid of life, any character. Something that Agamben attacks very sweetly. My sense is that you too are not interested in the relevance of archives. However, you are not clear at this point on why do you wish to think about archives? May be later on we shall get an opportunity to understand the core of your question in better manner. Right now, I am in the midddle of something completely different hence my apology, if I will not be able to attend your postings in near future. I however, promise to respond as soon as possible. Also look forward to hear on Nietzche and on memory and geneology. wishes, sadan. On 6:47 pm 01/04/08 ARNAB CHATTERJEE wrote: > Dear Prem, > I think the questions are already > separate and needs to be rephrased if you want it the > way you've put it. > 1. The question is not whether WE need archives > or not( there are many things which exist even if we > don't need them); lets talk in terms of practices and > ask, infact that is what I've asked, what sort of > practices need archives?What sort of practices don't > need them? Does philosophical history ( I have in mind > the Hegelian or the Kantian kind) need the archival > backing? Does Nietzschean or Foucauldean genealogy > need it? With all its distrust of origins, what is the > status of the use of sources in Foucault? ( Mahmood > for instance asked, will the Foucauldian enterprise > remain intact if his source materialiastic resources > are removed? I think yes but many will say no, lets > discuss it . What is the difference between origins > and sources? --and join in other questions I've > already asked and has been asked by many of us and > others. > 2. Secondly, in response to the phrasing of your > second question, let me tell you and all, the answer > we would like to know is not whether archives are > neutral or not ( You know and have told the answer), > but whether the question of neutrality can itself be > based on the archives. Your other questions stand > automatically modified in regard to the revision of > your two questions I've made. It'll be great if you > attempt to answer them for us. > > Thanking you > with apologies for making frequent postings ( even > though I'm not a hindu right)but immediate responses I > guess will put the debate in perspective and maintain > it.) > Arnab > > --- Prem Chandavarkar wrote: > > > Are we not confusing two questions here which need > > to be kept separate: > > 1. Do we need archives? > > 2. Are archives neutral? > > The answer to each question could be different. We > > would probably say yes to > > the first and no to the second. In which case we > > confront the need for a > > critical and discerning alertness when we consider > > archives. Which raises > > some other questions such as: > > 1. What are the ethical dimensions and compulsions > > of this alertness? > > 2. How does it shape the discipline of history? > > 3. How does it determine what we consider an > > archive? > > 4. How does it determine where we search for > > archives? > > > > Regards, > > Prem > > > > > > On 04/01/2008, ARNAB CHATTERJEE > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sadan, > > > Thank you! Your prompt response > > actually > > > begins the discussion where I gues others will > > soon > > > join in and we shall all learn and unlearn from > > each > > > other in a very very creative way. > > > You do recognise Foucault and I think let us limit > > > ourselves to a few texts in the beginning. I shall > > > keep aside Derrida and Agamben on archives, since > > none > > > of them claimed to have been practising genealogy > > like > > > Foucault. And my hunch was simply this : to > > involve > > > many who have been doing things on archives etc > > and > > > make such an involved statement as you've done. It > > is > > > not a comment on yr text in the Censor book. But > > your > > > one might be engaged later while we discuss memory > > vis > > > a vis Foucault and Nietzsche. I'm perturbed by one > > > question here and let me state that for all : > > > genealogy has a problem with origins ( singular or > > > not) and therefore distrusts history but still > > > Foucault calls for heavy documentation using > > volatile > > > sources : What is the difference between sources > > and > > > origins? > > > And Sadan, neither I'm making a case for the > > non > > > existence of archives. I'm far from making any > > such > > > logistical suggestions, I'm troubled by the > > compulsion > > > with which the question of the archive is driven > > at > > > some who have been trying to practise something > > > else.This question remains to be settled, yes I am > > > sincere here and I can quote you major incidents > > here > > > and abroad. Let us try to find a way out. > > > So, its purely an academic question for me and I > > think > > > all of us. > > > More soon > > > love > > > arnab > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- "sadan at sarai.net" wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Arnab, > > > > thanks for suggestion to reread Foucault on > > > > archives. Agamben may be > > > > another person to consider in this excercise. > > Tow > > > > quick respond, we also > > > > need to read Foucault's geneology, Nietzsche... > > as a > > > > point in between his > > > > earlier 'Archeology' and his lecutures... and > > then > > > > his power/knowledge. > > > > The point i was trying to raise in my article > > though > > > > is not whether we need > > > > archives or not but how archives can be > > profitably > > > > seen from vantage points > > > > of different sets of people. > > > > thanks. > > > > sadan. > > > > > > > > On 4:53 pm 01/03/08 ARNAB CHATTERJEE > > > > wrote: > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > Now atlast I'm geared up to rise and > > make > > > > > reviews of sentences we talked and questions > > we > > > > > answered or left them out at our last meeting > > in > > > > > Delhi. > > > > > First my conversation with mahmood farooqui > > and > > > > this > > > > > is simultaneously for Sadan Jha and Ritwik > > > > > Bhattacharya ( our own Kolkata archive > > theorist) > > > > as > > > > > well ( having read sadan's stuff on archive > > in > > > > > CENSOR..book etc. and Ritwik's research on the > > > > archive > > > > > and our own debate ehether pornography could > > have > > > > an > > > > > archival living or not). Does philosophical > > > > history > > > > > need archival materials? Does genealogy need > > > > archives? > > > > > My answer is unequivocal "No". I'll go into > > the > > > > > speculated details in my next post-- a bit of > > > > detail, > > > > > that is. But I'll first submit to mahmood > > farooqui > > > > and > > > > > my friends to reread Foucault's 'Nietzsche, > > > > genealogy > > > > > and History' because there is stuff for both > > sides > > > > and > > > > > I think Foucault simply puts his own oeuvre > > down > > > > by > > > > > claiming a case for vast source materials once > > and > > > > > then declaiming by saying archival materials > > have > > > > > their origin in a sort of non archival trace. > > I'll > > > > > argue, we could start by asking again , > > whether > > > > the > > > > > necessity of archives arises from within the > > > > archives. > > > > > If not, what are the consequences? > > > > > And another hint,Foucault is helped by > > Nietzsche > > > > here, > > > > > but consider Nietzsche's career as a > > genealogist( > > > > e.g > > > > > of values): how much of a source materialist > > he > > > > was, > > > > > how deep referential? > > > > > > > > > > Lets get onto the game, the outwork once > > more. > > > > > Un happy new year to all > > > > > arnab > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail > > > > storage is just a > > > > > click away. Go to > > > > > > https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail > > storage is just a click > > > away. Go to > > https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go to > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.ne > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sananth99 at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 12:52:42 2008 From: sananth99 at gmail.com (Ananth S) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 12:52:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Impact of Global Warming Message-ID: <3E559822-B617-4EB4-8CD2-63C6328D84A9@gmail.com> Trees absorbing less CO2 as world warms, study finds · Shorter winters weaken forest 'carbon sinks' · Data analysis reverses scientists' expectations * James Randerson, science correspondent * The Guardian, * Thursday January 3 2008 http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jan/03/ climatechange.carbonemissions The ability of forests to soak up man-made carbon dioxide is weakening, according to an analysis of two decades of data from more than 30 sites in the frozen north. The finding published today is crucial, because it means that more of the CO2 we release will end up affecting the climate in the atmosphere rather than being safely locked away in trees or soil. The results may partly explain recent studies suggesting that the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is increasing faster than expected. If higher temperatures mean less carbon is soaked up by plants and microbes, global warming will accelerate. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which shared the Nobel peace prize with Al Gore, has concluded that humanity has eight years left to prevent the worst effects of global warming. Carbon uptake by land and sea is crucial to predictions about future warming. "We are currently getting a 50% discount on the climatic impact of our fossil fuel emissions," the climate scientist John Miller of the University of Colorado wrote in a commentary on the research in the journal Nature - meaning that half of what we put out is sucked up by the oceans and ecosystems on land. "Unfortunately, we have no guarantee that the 50% discount will continue, and if it disappears we will feel the full climatic brunt of our unrelenting emission of CO2 from fossil fuels." The surprise rethink concerns abundant evidence from around the world that winter is starting later and spring earlier. In northern attitudes, spring and autumn temperatures have risen by 1.1C and 0.8C respectively in the past two decades. That means a longer growing season for plants, which scientists thought should be a good thing for slowing warming. This increased growth is even visible from space, with satellite measurements indicating a greening of the land. As plants take up more CO2, that should put a break on CO2 increases. However, the new data suggests that is too simplistic. The team analysed data from more than 30 monitoring stations spread across northern regions including Siberia, Alaska, Canada and Europe. The data, which goes back to 1980, charts the levels of CO2 in the local atmosphere. This is a product of both uptake by plants during photosynthesis and release of CO2 by plants and microbes during respiration. The team focused particularly on the date in autumn at which the forests switched from being a net sink for carbon into a net source. Instead of moving later in the year as they had expected, this date actually got earlier - in some places by a few days, but in others by a few weeks. "The information that we had from satellite data, that the greening was increasing, looked like a positive sign. There was hope that this would help us to mitigate emissions," said Anders Lindroth at Lund University in Sweden, who was part of the research team. "But even if we have a greening, it doesn't mean that we have a positive effect on the carbon balance ... it's bad news." "This means potentially a bigger warming effect," said Timo Vesala at the University of Helsinki, who led the study. The precise effect the trend will have on future warming is hard to predict, said Colin Prentice of the University of Bristol. "Over a longer period of decades, models predict changes in vegetation structure, including tundra regions becoming forested, and the forests tend to take up far more carbon than the tundra. So I would be sceptical about reading any particular future implication into these findings." The research could partly explain results by the Global Carbon Project, which confirmed that the rise in CO2 levels in the atmosphere is accelerating. Between 1970 and 2000 the concentration rose by about 1.5 parts per million (ppm), but since 2000 the annual rise leapt to an average of 1.9ppm - 35% higher than expected. Part of the rise is due to increased CO2 production by China, but the team said weakening carbon sinks were also to blame. Burning biofuels may be worse than coal and oil, say experts · Scientists point to cost in biodiversity and farmland · Razing tropical forests 'will increase carbon' * Alok Jha, science correspondent * The Guardian, * Friday January 4 2008 http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/jan/04/sciencenews.biofuels Using biofuels made from corn, sugar cane and soy could have a greater environmental impact than burning fossil fuels, according to experts. Although the fuels themselves emit fewer greenhouse gases, they all have higher costs in terms of biodiversity loss and destruction of farmland. The problems of climate change and the rising cost of oil have led to a race to develop environmentally-friendly biofuels, such as palm oil or ethanol derived from corn and sugar cane. The EU has proposed that 10% of all fuel used in transport should come from biofuels by 2020 and the emerging global market is expected to be worth billions of dollars a year. But the new fuels have attracted controversy. "Regardless of how effective sugar cane is for producing ethanol, its benefits quickly diminish if carbon-rich tropical forests are being razed to make the sugar cane fields, thereby causing vast greenhouse-gas emission increases," Jörn Scharlemann and William Laurance, of the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute in Panama, write in Science today. "Such comparisons become even more lopsided if the full environmental benefits of tropical forests - for example, for biodiversity conservation, hydrological functioning, and soil protection - are included." Efforts to work out which crops are most environmentally friendly have, until now, focused only on the amount of greenhouse gases a fuel emits when it is burned. Scharlemann and Laurance highlighted a more comprehensive method, developed by Rainer Zah of the Empa Research Institute in Switzerland, that can take total environmental impacts - such as loss of forests and farmland and effects on biodiversity - into account. In a study of 26 biofuels the Swiss method showed that 21 fuels reduced greenhouse-gas emissions by more than 30% compared with gasoline when burned. But almost half of the biofuels, a total of 12, had greater total environmental impacts than fossil fuels. These included economically-significant fuels such as US corn ethanol, Brazilian sugar cane ethanol and soy diesel, and Malaysian palm-oil diesel. Biofuels that fared best were those produced from waste products such as recycled cooking oil, as well as ethanol from grass or wood. Scharlemann and Laurance also pointed to "perverse" government initiatives that had resulted in unintended environmental impacts. In the US, for example, farmers have been offered incentives to shift from growing soy to growing corn for biofuels. "This is helping to drive up global soy prices, which in turn amplifies economic incentives to destroy Amazonian forests and Brazilian tropical savannas for soy production." They added: "The findings highlight the enormous differences in costs and benefits among different biofuels. There is a clear need to consider more than just energy and greenhouse gas emissions when evaluating different biofuels and to pursue new biofuel crops and technologies." Andy Tait, campaign manager at Greenpeace, said: "We're already bought into mandatory targets for the use of biofuels with very little thought of what the environmental impacts will be. This study further confirms that there are serious risks associated with first generation biofuels, particularly from corn, soya and palm oil." He said that the biofuel technology had been oversold by industry and politicians. "It's clear that what government and industry are trying to do is find a neat, drop-in solution that allows people to continue business as usual. "If you're looking at the emissions from the transport sector, the first thing you need to look at is fuel efficiency and massively increasing it. That needs to come before you even get to the point of discussing which biofuels might be good or bad." From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 15:18:06 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 15:18:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Tears For Fears Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801050148k1d43f27kee12a79eba7568c1@mail.gmail.com> "From her frothing exhortations for "azaadi" (a barely disguised cry to kill Kashmiri Hindus) to her aggressive support of a pogrom of ethnic cleansing against Kashmiri Pandits, there have been very few Pakistani political figures who have escalated cross-border terrorism and hatred as much as Benazir has done. It's something that the West pretends not to know (because they don't really care how many Indians Benazir kills as long as she vows to eradicate the enemy of the West) and the appeasers on this side of the border want you to forget." http://greatbong.net/2008/01/02/tears-for-fears/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 5 16:14:40 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 02:44:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <030901c848f6$b54ce7d0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: <600146.93194.qm@web57209.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Tara Prakash It is not proper to ascribe to me views that have not be expressed by me. So I object to the purport of your words """""But, of course, you are free to have your opinion and believe that people were actually mesmerized by Modi."""" Nowhere have I suggested that the people (of Gujrat) were 'mesmerised' by Modi. If it is your opinion, then express it as it being yours. You were very liberal in castigating people and 'forces' as 'evil'. Now that one requests for explanations that would lead to understanding how that 'evil' managed to win the elections, you are trapezing all over the place. Time you landed on solid earth. Let me present a construct from what has been said so far and see what you have to say: A. Evil (as per Tara Prakash) wins in Gujrat elections. Modi won it. B. As per Tara Prakash "Not only so-called pseudo secular forces or soft Hindutva forces were campaigning against Modi, but major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces were also against him." That would suggest a very pleasing support base for Modi. C. As per Tara Prakash "The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too..... Evil wins and Evil loses" Tara Prakash clarifies that he did not intend to homogenise Hindus. Let us accept that. D. Tara Prakash seems to advance a lack of alternate (non-evil) choice for the people of Gujrat as reason for "Evil" winning. E. Tara Prakash says "Electoral victory does not always mean that people have given you a clean chit." F. All the above put together lead to some intriguing questions: 1. Did the people of Gujrat vote Modi in, being well aware that Modi was "evil"? Are those who voted for Modi themselves "evil' too? 2. Were the people of Gujrat blinded by lack of judgement and absence of moral/ethical values that they voted Modi or because they were too naive/foolish to recognise Modi as "evil"? Were the people of Gujrat 'mesmerised' by the 'evil ' Modi? 3. In midst of the the abundance of "evil" people and forces (as per Tara Prakash) did the people of Gujrat opt for the "lesser evil"? Wouldnt that would make it a sensible choice? Who then were the forces of "greater evil" that were rejected? Or were the people of Gujrat so very "evil' that they chose the 'greater evil' in Modi? Look forward to Tara Prakash giving specific answers, hopefully as specific of his/her designating people/forces as "evil". Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: From: TaraPrakash To: Kshmendra Kaul ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 1:51 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Kshmendra. The first major attack on the democracy in India, I believe, came in the form of the emergency imposed by Indira Gandhi. Of course, there were certain supporters of the emergency and there still are some, but for the first time Congress was voted out of the power in the center. Very soon, however, the elections had to be held again which resulted in congress coming back. It did not mean that people had forgiven Indira Gandhi for the attrocities commited during the emergency. But people did not have any solid alternative. Electoral victory does not always mean that people have given you a clean chit. The party which was alternative to Modi's winning party was no better in the opinion of the voters in Gujarat. Supporting Congress might have been interpreted as a support to the policies of the center government run by the Congress. So may be you should take Modi's victory as rejection of the policies of the central government by the people of Gujarat. Don't forget that the way Congress had organized its election campaign, it was depending on the high command more than the local leaders. But, of course, you are free to have your opinion and believe that people were actually mesmerized by Modi. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul To: TaraPrakash ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 4:17 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Tara Prakash I already accepted your earlier stated clarification that you do not want to homogenise. I am now trying to make sense of what "exactly" you meant. So let me re-state my enquiries: 1. If all the 'forces' named by you ( so-called pseudo secular forces + soft Hindutva forces + major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces) were pitted against Modi, then who are the ones that voted Modi back into government?????? It cannot be the "hard-core Hindutva forces" because according to you the major part of them were against Modi. Who therefore does Modi represent?????? 2. If a substantial part of the 65% vote (in the Gujarat election) was secured by those who you call the representatives of evil "main forces" (as per Tara Prakash, whether they won or lost), then wouldnt a logical deduction from Tara Prakash's premise be that those participating voters were "evil" too?????? These are questions. Of course you can say "I said what I said and I do not care what meanings are conveyed or whether anything meaningful is conveyed at all; I said what I said" Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: If this is how you understand the message, let this be the import of my message. I of course do not want to homogenize in any circumstance. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul To: TaraPrakash ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 8:01 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Tara Prakash Your words were very clear and did not need any interpretation by me. Maybe it was an unfortunate turn of phrase and words by you. In any case, now, you have clarified that you did not mean that all Hindus are evil. You have again said some interesting things. For one: """""" Not only so-called pseudo secular forces or soft Hindutva forces were campaigning against Modi, but major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces were also against him."""" If all the 'forces' named by you were pitted against Modi, then who are the ones that voted Modi back into government? It cannot be the "hard-core Hindutva forces" because according to you the major part of them were against Modi. AND you go on to say: """"" I stick to my opinion that the main forces contesting these election both represented evil.""""" Gujarat had a 65% voter turn-out. That is quite a high percentage for any part of the world. If a substantial part of this 65% vote was secured by those who you call the representatives of evil "main forces" (whether they won or lost), then those participating voters would be "evil" too. So, in the "Gujarat according to Tara Prakash" it was 'mainly' the 'evil' contesting and 'mainly' the 'evil' voting. Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: Dear Kshmendra. An intriguing interpretation of my message. I did not intend to homogenize Hindus, as the message I was responding to, did. I don't see Hindu farmers getting anything positive from Modi's policies. Nor other poor Hindus. Not only so-called pseudo secular forces or soft Hindutva forces were campaigning against Modi, but major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces were also against him. In this specific "electoral fight" even if Modi had lost there would not be much positive expected. I stick to my opinion that the main forces contesting these election both represented evil. It does not mean that I am calling Hindus evil. The evil had to be elected because there were no other alternatives. It will be presumptuous on my part to define Hinduism here, but I refuse to restrict it to some opportunist ruffians. I refuse to buy the Hindutva brand sold by the brigade. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul To: TaraPrakash ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 4:25 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Dear Tara Prakash Intriguing comment by you. You wrote: """"'The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses.""""" It suggests rather states very blatantly that in your opinion whether the Hindu wins or loses, the Hindu is evil. Or at least in the specific case of Gujarat's electoral fights, according to you, whether the Hindus were on the winning side or the losing side, the Hindus are evil. Kshmendra Kaul TaraPrakash wrote: Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani be happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal for floating her own party against BJP? The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth next time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vedavati Jogi" To: ; Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > seculars! > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > vedavati > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now._________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. List archive: --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. From apnawritings at yahoo.co.in Sat Jan 5 17:49:26 2008 From: apnawritings at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 12:19:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Religious belief :private or personal? Response to Aditi and Shuddhabrata Message-ID: <22371.77312.qm@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Aditi, Shuddhabrata, SARAI readers and writers, This submission might be titled Conversation 2 and has as its theme the question of belief - in particular ‘religious belief’–should it be called private or personal. This question was pursued by Shuddha a month or two ago in response to one of my questions posed on his designation of religious belief as private; my response has been pending since then. But there arose an opportunity when I made a short dig at Aditi Saraf ( the presenter who preceded me on Dec. 7 at the SARAI-CSDS workshop in Delhi) and who in the context of animal welfare and allied subjects mentioned something called ‘private belief.’ At the end of my brief extempore, she had asked a question as to what did I think of the history of religions, secularism etc by which, I think, she tended to mean the emergence of church/state distinction and religion for the first time acquiring a privative comportment. Amidst an array of questions, this question was lost and I had not answered it and it was pointed out to me when we had walked out of the auditorium. Sorry ! But because I and Shuddha have had been pursuing this question for quite some time( where my constant belief has been that religious belief is/ ought to be personal rather than private.), my answer could not have been different. But my dream of a more organized answer is not going to be true—that’s clear; forgive this hasty bricolage . Now, if seen from the vantage point of the present ( that is a down top approach) –in a sense crude genealogically—religion or to hold a religious belief –as per a strong tradition is or should be a private affair ( Aditi is an un-true genealogist); anybody negating the same will be accused of politicizing religion and may be dubbed a fundamentalist. Here, we may recall Shuddha’s argument as well which is interesting and contemporary in more then one sense. He seems to have argued, unlike Aditi’s historicist interpretation, that religious belief as private is/ought to be more of a political strategy. This may help protect the believers of a particular religious group from an other invasion; further it might also help a community of believers not to explain their belief ( or “their reasons to be different”) to those who don’t share their particular life world. The second, for its similarity, may be seen to have been resembling the position of Partha Chatterjee in his ‘Secularism and Toleration’. Now, my answer first to Aditi’s invading historicism : my first argument for Aditi is, why is she starting from the secularist disjunction in human history; why isn’t she pushing her history of religion a bit further back till that history is lost in myths held by forgotten communities. Simply put I don’t think there could be a history of religions except particular forms of specific religions like Christianity or Islam or Hinduism etc. ( But notice for instance the nineteenth century debate instanced in David Strauss’s path breaking LIFE OF JESUS as to how the life of Jesus ought not be considered historical but mythical). But forget these debates, the simple point is, the history of religions pushed back and back is lost in magic, cult, rituals, sacrifices, and endless orgies. Given by the studies of Durkheim et.al then religion has a mythical, COMMUNAL origin ( I cannot help the conclusion of an impossible historicist approach but suggest those endless religious anthropological studies in defense of at least a historical anthropological position here; Walter Benjamin’s exposition of the cultic basis of capitalism in this context could be re-read vis-vis Hamacher thus in an interesting manner ). I shall ask Aditi to consider why is she and a lot others are insisting on us to adopt a schema arising out of a particular historically evolved break ( religion as private) and not religion as communal which is prior to that break. Just recall here that in thinkers who defend the latter approach, there myth and community are the two basic registers. Private religion is a specifically modern approach with its own already critiqued politics. The ball evidently is, in Aditi’s court. Shuddhabrata Sengupta is too aware of these dangers and had sensed too quickly that I was laying a trap for him ( he calls these ‘minefields’, and keeping in mind ( I guess) my questions, he had used another memorable term long ago ‘multiheaded hydra’; Shuddha justly is a good navigator). Jokes apart-now his political turn I have already celebrated above. Here comes the objection. I’ll remind Shuddha of the critique of the private in the hands of the anti liberals and the feminists. It is hard to wrench away private from this polluted rigorous contaminations or else even private property may also become a holy word; in particular discourses—it is. The genesis of the critique in a badly simple language is two pronged: one, the private is a violation of that which has been common; two, the feminist critique which has demystified privacy as another umbrella to mask oppression and avoid even internal questions of the right and the good. I take these objections very seriously and my attempts throughout these years ( even during my SARAI tenure) has been to point out how the liberals collapsed personal with the private at some point of time and then, my attempt has been to break it away from the devastating capsule and send personal back to its common-communal non-origin or myth whatever. Therefore when I say religious belief is ‘personal’ it rememorates this pre private common (non)origin and given even empirical history of the last fifty years and its trajectory, I think no body will disagree as to the impossibility –even the ruthless dangers of trying to suppress the communal identity of religions in favour of a secular division. Allow me to claim that my usage is able to accommodate this experience. Secondly, take the feminist critique of privacy. If private group rights are granted to religious groups/ communities( they do exist in some form), the feminist critique becomes absolutely invincible. The internal exploitation of gendered individuals ( or with other agencies) within a particular communal group will be protected in the name of same self autonomy. Any question of the right and the good, even if raised internally, will be assumed to have been reflexive of an external interrogation by a non group. (Shahbanu and what not; Shuddha knows this history too well.) The host of debates around ‘the right to exit’ of an individual group member has been dancing around this perplexity for quite a long time. Even voluntary conversion to another religion may be interpreted and admonished from this angle. Conversion to another religion then, in these terms, would amount to a violation of a group’s privacy and then the reconversion by radical Hindu or Islamic activists may be seen as attempts towards restoring violated group sanity: giving back the good name. It would be like the woman who was running naked outside on the streets to flee from brutality, is forced to dress and sent back to the bedroom. Return of the heretic, madwoman in the attic. Shuddha’s private, I’m afraid, against his own will, energizes the stronger side. But religious belief as a personal one, as argued long ago ( please put on search: Arnab Chatterjee ‘Towards a theory of the personal’ on Google or at Reader’s List), is different from the private and not opposed to the public—even the questions of the right and the good. ( Comunicative ethics might be of some help here.) It will depend again on the person to sacrifice privacy and invite publicity when s/he deems so; conversion will be a matter of personal decision. Now, it might justifiably be asked, when come in regimented religious groups women in the form of persons have been asserting ‘the personal’ being faithful to their common origin but as well looking towards a new commonality ? The question is well placed and my answer is, only when we start using the word belief in its right form and shun the private/ public binary in favour of the personal, then only we shall go for that debunking we are all looking for. And this cause will be helped only if well meaning individuals like Aditi or Shuddhabrata start using it instead of that long polluted criminal word ‘private’. I hope, in their responses subsequent to this post, they will do so, yess! Thank you, Yours in discourse and debt Arnab Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups From deb99kamal at yahoo.com Sun Jan 6 00:59:24 2008 From: deb99kamal at yahoo.com (Debkamal Ganguly) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 11:29:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Signature film link and controversy in IFFK 2007 Message-ID: <135341.93771.qm@web52802.mail.re2.yahoo.com> dear all, please check the signature film downloading from the link below. It created a kind of controversy in the last International film festival of Kerala, 2007. http://rapidshare.com/files/80969637/VTS_01_1.VOB.html it would play in VLC media player and other standard DVD video playing softwares. It is uploaded in full resolution, 56 sec in length and almost 30 MB in size. you can also get a taste of controversy by searching 'signature film IFFK 2007' in search engines. i am specially interested in your comments, because i was one of the members behind its making. i thought the film and whole debate around it can be of some interest from cultural perspective. debkamal --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. From prem.cnt at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 10:17:20 2008 From: prem.cnt at gmail.com (Prem Chandavarkar) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 10:17:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Foucault as a genealogist : Response to Prem In-Reply-To: <315880.20806.qm@web8511.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <7e230b560801040342q5e3f9c12r2ad31694e5f449a1@mail.gmail.com> <315880.20806.qm@web8511.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7e230b560801052047y7ed8b75ds8abe3ac71e39230a@mail.gmail.com> Dear Arnab, I am afraid I find the questions you raise rather technical and perplexing (which is perhaps due to my limitations more than anything else). But to me, the starting point is another question: Is there any activity that is possible that is not touched by archives? I find it difficult to answer yes to this question, because it is tantamount to a claim that one can step into a position that is free from memory. I do not read the Foucauldean geneology as a claim to archives as being foundational, but rather as a critique of claims that one can either be free of archives, or to treat archives as substantive truth. So my later questions about alertness revolves around how we choose to construct history as a discipline: whether it is a factual description that uses foundational archives, or whether it is a moment located in the present that centres around the question of "What do we choose to remember?" Regards, Prem On 04/01/2008, ARNAB CHATTERJEE wrote: > > Dear Prem, > I think the questions are already > separate and needs to be rephrased if you want it the > way you've put it. > 1. The question is not whether WE need archives > or not( there are many things which exist even if we > don't need them); lets talk in terms of practices and > ask, infact that is what I've asked, what sort of > practices need archives?What sort of practices don't > need them? Does philosophical history ( I have in mind > the Hegelian or the Kantian kind) need the archival > backing? Does Nietzschean or Foucauldean genealogy > need it? With all its distrust of origins, what is the > status of the use of sources in Foucault? ( Mahmood > for instance asked, will the Foucauldian enterprise > remain intact if his source materialiastic resources > are removed? I think yes but many will say no, lets > discuss it . What is the difference between origins > and sources? --and join in other questions I've > already asked and has been asked by many of us and > others. > 2. Secondly, in response to the phrasing of your > second question, let me tell you and all, the answer > we would like to know is not whether archives are > neutral or not ( You know and have told the answer), > but whether the question of neutrality can itself be > based on the archives. Your other questions stand > automatically modified in regard to the revision of > your two questions I've made. It'll be great if you > attempt to answer them for us. > > Thanking you > with apologies for making frequent postings ( even > though I'm not a hindu right)but immediate responses I > guess will put the debate in perspective and maintain > it.) > Arnab > > --- Prem Chandavarkar wrote: > > > Are we not confusing two questions here which need > > to be kept separate: > > 1. Do we need archives? > > 2. Are archives neutral? > > The answer to each question could be different. We > > would probably say yes to > > the first and no to the second. In which case we > > confront the need for a > > critical and discerning alertness when we consider > > archives. Which raises > > some other questions such as: > > 1. What are the ethical dimensions and compulsions > > of this alertness? > > 2. How does it shape the discipline of history? > > 3. How does it determine what we consider an > > archive? > > 4. How does it determine where we search for > > archives? > > > > Regards, > > Prem > > > > > > On 04/01/2008, ARNAB CHATTERJEE > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sadan, > > > Thank you! Your prompt response > > actually > > > begins the discussion where I gues others will > > soon > > > join in and we shall all learn and unlearn from > > each > > > other in a very very creative way. > > > You do recognise Foucault and I think let us limit > > > ourselves to a few texts in the beginning. I shall > > > keep aside Derrida and Agamben on archives, since > > none > > > of them claimed to have been practising genealogy > > like > > > Foucault. And my hunch was simply this : to > > involve > > > many who have been doing things on archives etc > > and > > > make such an involved statement as you've done. It > > is > > > not a comment on yr text in the Censor book. But > > your > > > one might be engaged later while we discuss memory > > vis > > > a vis Foucault and Nietzsche. I'm perturbed by one > > > question here and let me state that for all : > > > genealogy has a problem with origins ( singular or > > > not) and therefore distrusts history but still > > > Foucault calls for heavy documentation using > > volatile > > > sources : What is the difference between sources > > and > > > origins? > > > And Sadan, neither I'm making a case for the > > non > > > existence of archives. I'm far from making any > > such > > > logistical suggestions, I'm troubled by the > > compulsion > > > with which the question of the archive is driven > > at > > > some who have been trying to practise something > > > else.This question remains to be settled, yes I am > > > sincere here and I can quote you major incidents > > here > > > and abroad. Let us try to find a way out. > > > So, its purely an academic question for me and I > > think > > > all of us. > > > More soon > > > love > > > arnab > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- "sadan at sarai.net" wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Arnab, > > > > thanks for suggestion to reread Foucault on > > > > archives. Agamben may be > > > > another person to consider in this excercise. > > Tow > > > > quick respond, we also > > > > need to read Foucault's geneology, Nietzsche... > > as a > > > > point in between his > > > > earlier 'Archeology' and his lecutures... and > > then > > > > his power/knowledge. > > > > The point i was trying to raise in my article > > though > > > > is not whether we need > > > > archives or not but how archives can be > > profitably > > > > seen from vantage points > > > > of different sets of people. > > > > thanks. > > > > sadan. > > > > > > > > On 4:53 pm 01/03/08 ARNAB CHATTERJEE > > > > wrote: > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > Now atlast I'm geared up to rise and > > make > > > > > reviews of sentences we talked and questions > > we > > > > > answered or left them out at our last meeting > > in > > > > > Delhi. > > > > > First my conversation with mahmood farooqui > > and > > > > this > > > > > is simultaneously for Sadan Jha and Ritwik > > > > > Bhattacharya ( our own Kolkata archive > > theorist) > > > > as > > > > > well ( having read sadan's stuff on archive > > in > > > > > CENSOR..book etc. and Ritwik's research on the > > > > archive > > > > > and our own debate ehether pornography could > > have > > > > an > > > > > archival living or not). Does philosophical > > > > history > > > > > need archival materials? Does genealogy need > > > > archives? > > > > > My answer is unequivocal "No". I'll go into > > the > > > > > speculated details in my next post-- a bit of > > > > detail, > > > > > that is. But I'll first submit to mahmood > > farooqui > > > > and > > > > > my friends to reread Foucault's 'Nietzsche, > > > > genealogy > > > > > and History' because there is stuff for both > > sides > > > > and > > > > > I think Foucault simply puts his own oeuvre > > down > > > > by > > > > > claiming a case for vast source materials once > > and > > > > > then declaiming by saying archival materials > > have > > > > > their origin in a sort of non archival trace. > > I'll > > > > > argue, we could start by asking again , > > whether > > > > the > > > > > necessity of archives arises from within the > > > > archives. > > > > > If not, what are the consequences? > > > > > And another hint,Foucault is helped by > > Nietzsche > > > > here, > > > > > but consider Nietzsche's career as a > > genealogist( > > > > e.g > > > > > of values): how much of a source materialist > > he > > > > was, > > > > > how deep referential? > > > > > > > > > > Lets get onto the game, the outwork once > > more. > > > > > Un happy new year to all > > > > > arnab > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail > > > > storage is just a > > > > > click away. Go to > > > > > > https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail > > storage is just a click > > > away. Go to > > https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go to > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups > > From apnawritings at yahoo.co.in Thu Jan 3 16:53:58 2008 From: apnawritings at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 11:23:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Foucault as a genealogist : The case for (non) archives Message-ID: <364403.23960.qm@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear friends, Now atlast I'm geared up to rise and make reviews of sentences we talked and questions we answered or left them out at our last meeting in Delhi. First my conversation with mahmood farooqui and this is simultaneously for Sadan Jha and Ritwik Bhattacharya ( our own Kolkata archive theorist) as well ( having read sadan's stuff on archive in CENSOR..book etc. and Ritwik's research on the archive and our own debate ehether pornography could have an archival living or not). Does philosophical history need archival materials? Does genealogy need archives? My answer is unequivocal "No". I'll go into the speculated details in my next post-- a bit of detail, that is. But I'll first submit to mahmood farooqui and my friends to reread Foucault's 'Nietzsche, genealogy and History' because there is stuff for both sides and I think Foucault simply puts his own oeuvre down by claiming a case for vast source materials once and then declaiming by saying archival materials have their origin in a sort of non archival trace. I'll argue, we could start by asking again , whether the necessity of archives arises from within the archives. If not, what are the consequences? And another hint,Foucault is helped by Nietzsche here, but consider Nietzsche's career as a genealogist( e.g of values): how much of a source materialist he was, how deep referential? Lets get onto the game, the outwork once more. Un happy new year to all arnab DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 10:35:22 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:35:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <32144e990801032020r70c88078r8891b9e6aacb8628@mail.gmail.com> References: <956691.95928.qm@web90412.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <93D1A9BFB1D84ADA9FAA726576A5B773@vetrivel> <6b79f1a70801022042r247233c8tc9f35f9f0c344eaa@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990801032020r70c88078r8891b9e6aacb8628@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801032105tbf678ftd55b2f8ed45468dd@mail.gmail.com> Partha , If some people have an interpretation of society , it may be termed as a personal view. I believe a Dalit is as much a Hindu as a Brahmin or a Kshytra is.And I believe that all those who lure poor with money to convert should be stopped as well. And me , though being a Brahmin by birth , never believed that I stood between a human and God. Neither were we taught so by our parents. Pawan On 1/4/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Hi Pawan, > > Like many others, had got unsubscribed from Sarai, so just went ahead and > re-subscribed, and got tons of mail a few days late - which was quite > interesting as I got to see viewpoints and counterpoints without reacting. > > Anyhow, to get to the point I was going to make - I'm sure you'll agree > with me that Chanchal's argument was extremely unfounded in fact based on > some dreamlike vision she has of 'Hinduism'. > > 1. Sex education > It is a well known fact that prudism in the form of the insistence of > blouses > (which were unknown in rural Bengal from my childhood) or pants > instead > of lungi's and dhoti's were a direct influence of the British > hangover for what > they considered 'proper'. Go through ancient Indian art, and there > are countless > instances that will prove this to you. > > 2. Reservations > Per se, for India as to move forward - it has to move forward as a > whole from > the villages to the towns to the cities. Also, it is a known fact > that 'lower castes' > are still dominated in areas and that is accepted. Hindu as I may be > from birth, > I refuse to agree with anyone who may claim that s/he is higher (or > lower) than > me because of their ancestral name. I'm sure you'll agree that just > because > some one is born a Brahmin does not denote that they are > automatically > superhumans endowed with special powers. Similarly, just because > someone > is a Dalit does not mean that they are mentally or physically > incapable. > And I have personally met people at all levels who are capable (and > incapable) > irrespective of caste. The ex-King of Nepal is a prime example of a > bad high caste > ruler. Then if capable 'Lower Castes' have been kept down, doesn't > the Indian Nation > need them to be empowered so that India can achieve it's greatness? > > 3. Foreign Investments > The investments may be from 'Islamic States' or Indian Muslims. The > bigger evil > (though this is a personal opinion) is the people in India who cheat > the state and the > law of this land and misuse public money / property - from Nandigram > to the Registrar > of Societies in Delhi who fleeced the nation. Foreign money is > subject to many > regulations and checks - and if there is a misuse, we should look at > catching the > people who are supposed to administrate it for public good. > > > 4. Charas, Ganja & Afeem were known as 'Nawabi Showk' well before the > British came > into India. Charas and Ganja especially are copiously consumed on > Shiv Ratri in India. > Weakness or addiction has nothing to do with religion, caste or > gender - it is purely > a personal problem that can afflict anyone. > > I could go on and on about the misinformed statements of Chanchal, which > I'm sure you would also agree are completely skewed. However, as a Hindu > (atleast notionally - since I do not believe that any Brahmin has the right > to stand between God and me) I do have a problem with someone telling me > what I should believe about how a Hindu should believe / behave / think. As > a thinking individual and an adult, it is my right to follow my personal > belief - all the more so when faced with an incoherent, immature and totally > unfounded argument that you seem to agree with (and I say 'seem to agree > with' since you answer Ahimoolam's irritation with bland statements that > signify unless we subscribe to Chanchal's rant we are 'anti Hindu') > > Rgds, Partha > .......................... > > On Jan 3, 2008 10:12 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Hello Adhimoolan , > > > > > > > > I forgot that this Forum was supposed to be anti Hindu and there are > > many who have deviated. Please dont write anything pro hindu . > > > > > > > > It hurts > > > > > > > > God Bless.... > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > On 12/26/07, Vetrivel Adhimoolam wrote: > > > > > I realized the need for applying junk e-mail filter. It's amazing > > > that a forum like this gets easily highjacked by the Hindu fundamentalist > > > forces. The return of barbarism. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > *From:* chanchal malviya > > > > > > *To:* Vedavati Jogi ; reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > *Cc:* sudhakar.koppu at gmail.com > > > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:48 AM > > > > > > *Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > There are huge breaking force acting on our Nation > > > 1. With the influence of foreigh missionnaries and investors, Science > > > is taking tool to introduce concepts like Sex Education in Children - the > > > target is next generation should be destroyed. Current generation has > > > already met the target of not respecting the nation and running heedlessly > > > towards whatever they like. they cannot withstand pressure, nor are the > > > brave enough to take bold decisions. they want money and they want wine and > > > girls around in the name freedom. > > > > > > 2. Govt. policies like Reservations are breaking the nation to pieces, > > > separating people from people. > > > 3. Chrisitian missionnaries are converting the Hindus to Christians at > > > a ver fast pace > > > 4. Muslims are being intruded (from Bangladesh in particular) in all > > > parts, increasing their population so as to become the majority and declare > > > the nation as Islamic state > > > 5. Foreign investments from Islamic state are continuously buying > > > lands through local Muslims > > > 6. Charas, Ganja, Afeem, other drugs along with Arms and Ammunitions > > > are being continuously coming across Pakistan and Bangladesh borders. Arms > > > are provided to Islamic groups and Naxals. Drugs are provided to sex > > > educated children of careless parents. > > > 7. Muslims are in target of Islamic conversions, continuously marrying > > > Hindus girls - Hindus girls are not able to understand that it is they who > > > are converted to Islam and the boy is never accepting Hinduism - Why? If it > > > was love, we would have found conversions in this field happening in both > > > area. > > > 8. Indian intellectuals are continuously exported to Foreign countries > > > (IIT, IIM, and all good institute students), ensuring that they do not work > > > for India > > > 9. Export of our Food Items is increasing when prices are hiking in > > > our own country. > > > 10. Poverty now seem to be the property of minority alone - when > > > actually, no minority is under poverty - most of them are on target to > > > achieve this nation as a group. > > > > > > There are so many things happening in this nation from years. And now > > > there is only one agenda - kill Hinduism, ask the Youth to be secular and > > > attack Hinduism - because Hindus destroyed is India taken over. > > > > > > Open your eyes, O Hindus - this is not a religion when you talk > > > Hinduism. It is the only philosophy that is humanity. What you see as > > > differences are actually political move to break the nation apart. Do not > > > get moved by such irrationality. have the gut to see beyond the screen, have > > > the intelligence to understand beyond what is highlighted in news. > > > > > > Jai Hind, > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:19:31 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > what is meant by 'your beloved' country? > > > don't you stay in this country? > > > is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? > > > are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com> To: > > > vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; > > > reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why Pakistan? People have migrated > > > to African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American > > > countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and corners > > > of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all Muslims? If > > > you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a second > > > thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority of > > > those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the > > > other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were > > > > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che> > > > Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and > > > > Muslims had > > > no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena > > > for their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > sentiments. > > > How do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai? > > > Do they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? Those who you > > > think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood just > > > for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I > > > support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard core > > > hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath yatra > > > and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should be > > > the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to power? > > > Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership of > > > which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya > > > Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > > > > To: < bawazainab79 at gmail.com>; < > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>; > < reader-list at sarai.net>> Sent: > > > Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > > > election> > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if > > > you don't find india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to > > > pakistan.> >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well > > > but they > > never understand their responsibilities.they never > > > understand their own > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? > > > who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning > > > this country on religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, > > > given equal rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by > > > hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to > > > build ram temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if > > > you too are the sons of this soil, > > > why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor? > > > babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this earth has > > > ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it very well that > > > madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are > > > trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from > > > sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your > > > chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere > > > because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for > > > reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then > > > that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform > > > civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields > > > in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never > > > faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this > > > 'false > > > > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > > > > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been > > > taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am > > > sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take > > > action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to > > > garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims > > > but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat > > > so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is > > > politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & > > > seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if > > > not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation > > > building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try > > > to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > Date: > > > Tue, 25 Dec > > > 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > > > > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati,> > > > > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > > > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > > > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > > > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > > > > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after > > > > > brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you > > > > > have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > > > > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > > > > primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > > > > left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > > > > participated in the 1992-93 riots in > > > Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken > > > against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra > > > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in mass > > > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to be > > > in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed to be > > > aligned.> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, > > > Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab, 'india > > > is a secular country and will remain a secular country > > only because of > > > majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who had > > > voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india after > > > partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread & butter > > > was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too > > > followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave > > > reservations to bc, obcs, by > > > reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs & obcs > > > and divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities from muslim > > > community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir hussain, > > > shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... all of > > > them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular among > > > hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > descrimination, > > > indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed carrot of > > > 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they can't > > > hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. modi does not > > > 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including > > > bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, > > > hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former > > > because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. this > > > secularism practised by > > > congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus. > > > terrorists are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is talking > > > about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like soharabuddin > > > is killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what about > > > 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter hindus cannot > > > be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! vedavati> >> > > > >> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > > > electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC : > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> > > > >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who > > > are facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > > > > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > > > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, > > > when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. > > > in other words, > > it is humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims has > > > yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass when > > > there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single > > > movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > > > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > > > > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > Whenever > > > Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > but not > > > Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > the > > > world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > > > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that > > > all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever > > > Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not > > > religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > > > > Don't you think > > > that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > > > > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > > > > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if > > > there is no strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and > > > voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... > > > Declaring Quran as > > words of God and then putting killing into action in > > > the name of same God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is > > > what is happening > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have > > > intruded in the nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to > > > indulge into what they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them > > > brothers... The day Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the > > > day Muslims would start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. > > > the Muslim would join the festivals > > of their brothers... the secularism > > > would meet > > > its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would > > > not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > > > > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > > > > > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe > > > Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > ----- > > > Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa < bawazainab79 at gmail.com>To: > > > > > TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com>Cc: > > > reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: > > > Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > > > electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am still a > > > bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as for > > > formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the > > > country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus are not > > > Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for > > > my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that > > > Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > thatModi's > > > victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again, > > > apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On > > > Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > > > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > > > > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> > > > > > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > > > > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat > > > > > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> > > > > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May > > > > > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > > > > > next > > > time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > >> To: ; < tapasrayx at gmail.com>> > > Sent: > > > Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > > > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > > > > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > > > > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > > > > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > > > > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> > > > > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > > > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an > > > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the > > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: > > > < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > > > > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > > > > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the > > > > > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > > city.Critiques & > > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: < > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > Never miss a > > > thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.> >> >> > Live the life in style with MSN > > > Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!> > > > > _________________________________________________________________> > Post > > > free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in> > > > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219> > > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion > > > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: > > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in > > > the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > List archive: > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919... From info at basementartproject.com Sun Jan 6 00:17:03 2008 From: info at basementartproject.com (BasementArtProject.com) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 18:47:03 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Elusive: PV Saturday 19 January 5-9pm /performance 7pm Message-ID: <0922F7A5-9E86-4FD7-B557-B429A22767F8@basementartproject.com> Elusive Yu-Chen Wang Cyril Lepetit Andro Semeiko Mamuka Japaridze 20 January - 24 February 2008 Private View: Saturday 19 January 5-9pm performance on the night by Cyril Lepetit from 7pm Gallery Opening Times: Sundays 12 – 6pm or by appointment The Parlour Studios & Project Space 185 Queens Crescent, London NW5 4DS Chalk Farm Tube / follow the signs to Queens Crescent Market Curated by BasementArtProject.com Elusive presents a world where things are not quite what they seem. These things are not illusions; they appear to be like fleeting elements in the world made up of symbols and distorted meanings. Elusive brings together newly commissioned works by London-based artists Yu-Chen Wang, Cyril Lepetit and Andro Semeiko, and Tbilisi- based artist Mamuka Japaridze. A thread of surrealism links the works in this exhibition. The representational and distorted quality of Yu-Chen Wang’s drawing engages us in a non-narrative story telling. In contrast to her work, Cyril Lepetit places himself in manipulated situations in his performances questioning contemporary gendered hierarchies. In his paintings Andro Semeiko is puppeteering a knight in armour on his tragicomic quests. Along with these, Mamuka Japaridze’s film and prints present us with visual and language puzzles, which let us adopt sensitivity and appreciation of the process of recreating meanings. FOR PICTURES AND MORE INFORMATION GO TO: http://www.basementartproject.com/ Yu-Chen Wang Together or Apart 24x24cm colour pencil on paper mounted on MDF 2007 Supported by the London Borough of Camden  ------------------------------------------------------- BasementArtProject.com mailing list http://basementartproject.com/mailman/listinfo/ basementartproject.com_basementartproject.com -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From turbulence at turbulence.org Sat Jan 5 06:14:26 2008 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 19:44:26 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] MIXED REALITIES - AN INTERNATIONAL NETWORKED ART EXHIBITION AND SYMPOSIUM Message-ID: <010f01c84f34$415f56c0$c41e0440$@org> MIXED REALITIES - AN INTERNATIONAL NETWORKED ART EXHIBITION AND SYMPOSIUM http://turbulence.org/mixed_realities EXHIBITION http://turbulence.org/mixed_realities/artists_works.html February 7 - April 15, 2008 OPENING AND PERFORMANCE: February 7, 2008; 5-7 pm. Pierre Proske's CATERWAUL will be performed by Emerson College students at 5:30 pm VENUES: Huret & Spector Gallery (Emerson College, Boston), Turbulence.org (Internet), and Ars Virtua (Second Life) ARTISTS: Drew Baker, Neill Donaldson, John (Craig) Freeman, Usman Haque, Ai Hasegawa, Scott Kildall, Michael Takeo Magruder, Pierre Proske, Victoria Scott, David Steele, Georg Tremmel FLOATING POINTS 5: MIXED REALITIES SYMPOSIUM http://turbulence.org/mixed_realities/#symposium PRESENTATIONS AND DISCUSSION: February 8; 10 am - 5 pm WORKSHOP: February 9; 1-5 pm VENUES: Emerson College and Emerson Island (Second Life) PARTICIPANTS: Burak Arikan, Drew Baker, John (Craig) Freeman, Usman Haque, Drew Harry, Scott Kildall, Gene Koo, Pierre Proske, Michael Takeo Magruder, Victoria Scott, David Steele FREE AND OPEN TO THE PUBLIC TO REGISTER: email jo at turbulence.org Mixed Reality is the merging of real and virtual worlds to produce new environments where physical and digital objects can co-exist and interact in real-time. Mixed Realities is an exhibition and symposium that explores the convergence-through cyberspace-of real and synthetic places made possible by computers and networks. Mixed Realities links and overlays the Huret & Spector Gallery (Boston), Turbulence.org (Internet), and Ars Virtua (Second Life). Second Life is a shared, synthetic, 3-D environment through which people can interact in real-time by means of a virtual self or avatar. Although it's an imaginary place, it is often able to "masquerade as real" (Richard Bartle) because it approximates reality persuasively enough to facilitate player immersion. Audience members - who will be embodied as avatars in Second Life, browsing the works at turbulence.org, and/or be physically present in the gallery - will interact with the works and with one another. Thus, Mixed Realities will enable people who are distributed across multiple physical and virtual spaces to communicate with one another and share experiences in real time. Five works were commissioned by New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc. specifically for the Mixed Realities exhibition. Collectively, they combine sensor, video, sound, streaming, webcam, projection, processing, world wide web, and 3-D technologies to produce immersive, interactive and participatory performances and installations. They allow audiences to experience real and fictional places simultaneously in "Imaging Beijing" and "The Vitruvian World"; debate the value of virtual labor and currency in "No Matter"; communicate physical data from multiple sources through "Remote"; and question mediated communication itself in "Caterwaul." Details: http://turbulence.org/mixed_realities Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 6 15:39:25 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 02:09:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Modi losing ground in Gujarat - Praful Bidwai (A pre election-result analysis) Message-ID: <646185.93040.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Now that Modi has won, an amusing read is provided by Praful Bidwai's (pre election-result) pronouncement featured in "The News" from Pakistan on 15/12/2007. "The News" incidentally is a part of the India-basher "JANG GROUP" which includes GEO TV. In support of his contentions, Bidwai uses, the now to be laughed at, NDTV poll forecasts. Not only did Prannoy and Dorab, the celebrated psephologists of NDTV go horribly wrong in their predictions, but NDTV (especially Barkha Dutt) presented a sorry picture of themselves in their reportage and analyses of Modi's win. Bidwai had his own summarised gems of wisdom to seal the prediction of doom for Modi. He contended: """"" Four broad factors explain it: shifts in the party's social support-base; reassertion in Gujarat of what may be called normal or mundane politics vis-à-vis ideology-driven politics; changes in intra-Sangh Parivar relations and; Modi's personalised and confrontationist campaign.""""""""""" Kshmendra Kaul Modi losing ground in Gujarat By Praful Bidwai 12/15/2007 A month ago, most Gujarat politicians, social scientists, civil society activists, bureaucrats and citizens were agreed on the dead certainty of the Bharatiya Janata Party's victory in the assembly elections. Hindutva's appeal, and Chief Minister Narendra Modi's leadership, they believed, would ensure its win -- albeit with a smaller margin. Today, they'll tell you, the BJP could lose -- despite the Congress's timid campaign. The Congress skirted issues pertaining to the violence of 2002, didn't quite take on the BJP's "Gujarat Gaurav" campaign, or gather the nerve to field more than half-a-dozen Muslim candidates in a state where 20 Muslim MLAs used to get elected. But it might still get catapulted into power. All exit polls after the first phase of voting in 87 constituencies (of Gujarat's total of 182) point to a swing away from the BJP. An NDTV poll forecasts a loss of 13 BJP seats, placing it behind the Congress by three seats. Such a defeat will deliver the BJP a seismic shock and mark a historic setback for the Sangh Parivar. LK Advani's laughable anointment as the party's prime ministerial candidate will only aggravate the shock. Ideologically, the setback will be even more severe than the BJP's rout in the 2004 national elections. It will prove that a politics based on religious hatred, which rejects pluralism and secularism, is not sustainable even in a "Hindutva laboratory" state. On December 23, we'll know how the BJP has fared. But current estimates of its tally by civil servants and intelligence agencies vary from 70 to 80 seats, way below its 2002 score of 127. Even the state BJP's internal assessment is reportedly that it's sure to win only 63 seats; and optimistically, another 15 -- but still short of a majority. The BJP is clearly on a downswing in Gujarat. How and why has this come about? Four broad factors explain it: shifts in the party's social support-base; reassertion in Gujarat of what may be called normal or mundane politics vis-à-vis ideology-driven politics; changes in intra-Sangh Parivar relations and; Modi's personalised and confrontationist campaign. The long phase of expansion of the BJP's social base in Gujarat seems to have ended. Between 1992 (Babri demolition) and 2002 (the communal massacre), the BJP split the Congress's traditional base among Gujarat's "core minorities", comprised of Adivasis, Dalits and Muslims, and also among middle-level layers like the Kolis. Thanks to Hindutva's appeal, the BJP attracted many votes from Adivasis and Dalits in 2002. Using the state machinery, it browbeat and disenfranchised Muslims and prevented them from voting against it. However, over the past year or longer, not only are these groups returning to the Congress; the BJP has suffered a severe erosion of support amongst Kolis, and more important, the prosperous, powerful Leuva Patels, who wield clout in Saurashtra and Kutch (which together elect almost a third of Gujarat's MLAs). These social-base shifts can eliminate or reverse the small three percentage-point vote lead that the BJP enjoyed over the Congress in 2004, itself down from 10 points in 2002. This is happening in Saurashtra and the southern tribal belt, and also in parts of central and northern Gujarat. It's only among urban upper-caste, upper-class Hindus that the BJP enjoys unshakable support. And although Gujarat is India's most urbanised state (with 40 per cent of the population in the cities), the upper-crust elite is too small to ensure electoral success. Second, Modi has concentrated all power and tried to demolish normal, routine or mundane politics based on deal-making and patronage. He totally bypasses the party and the Sangh Parivar. Even senior BJP functionaries have no access to him. His calculation was that the banner of Gujarat's asmita (self-esteem or glory), "development" and "vibrant Gujarat" would produce magic. But the asmita slogan couldn't cover up the chasms and sleaze in Gujarat's society. "Development" got reduced to worship of growth without inclusion. And "vibrant Gujarat" is going exactly the way "India shining" did in 2004 -- exposing the BJP to popular scorn for celebrating elite-oriented, dualistic growth. Reality is now catching up with Modi. In the absence of a communal atmosphere, Hindutva has become irrelevant to the public's mood. "Normal politics" and mundane issues like high electricity bills, expensive toll-ways and a wilting Bt-Cotton crop, are chipping away at the artificial edifice Modi tried to construct out of the tacky slogans of "Gujarat's glory", and tall claims about investment and industrialisation. As this column noted (Oct 27), Gujarat's is a case of unbalanced growth and warped development. It's falling behind other large states in gender, health and environment indices. As many as 74 per cent of Gujarat's women and 47 per cent of its children are anaemic. Gujarat's infant mortality and malnutrition rates remain stubbornly high, especially in the rural areas. Gujarat's indices of patriarchy are frightening. The sex-ratio is an abysmal 487:1,000 in the 0-4 age-group and 571 in the 5-9 group (national averages, 515 and 632). Gujarat's health indices are barely higher than Orissa's. In the social sector spending -- as a proportion of public expenditure -- Gujarat ranks 19th among India's 21 major states. Contrary to claims about abundant electricity supply, the Mumbai-based Centre for Monitoring the Indian Economy says the Gujarat's power deficit averaged 10.7 per cent and peaked at 23.7 per cent in the past year. At any rate, the Congress has put Modi on the mat on the "development" agenda. A third adverse factor for Modi is serious infighting in the BJP. More than 40 "rebels" are contesting against the official candidates. Worse, the RSS, Vishwa Hindu Parishad, Bharatiya Kisan Sangh and other Sangh front organisations have decided not to help the BJP. Absence of door-to-door campaigning by RSS pracharaks will deliver a major blow to the BJP, especially in the cities. No less significant will be the absence of canvassing by the Hindu-proselytising organisation, the Vanavasi Kalyan Ashram, in the tribal areas. The synergy these groups generated together was crucial to the BJP' victory in the past elections. Now some of them will work against the party -- a double whammy. Finally, Modi ran a sectarian, foul and demagogic campaign, which used every conceivable low-level tactic. But he still failed to attract large audiences. No other BJP leader got a worthwhile public response either. By contrast, top Congress leaders' rallies were well-attended. Although their campaign was weak on secularism and social justice, it managed to corner Modi on governance and development issues. In response, a desperate Modi played the anti-Muslim card. He shamelessly justified the cold-blooded murder of Sohrabuddin Shaikh in a "fake encounter", and maligned Muslims. This blatantly violated the Election Commission's code of conduct, which prohibits hate speech and vilification of religious groups. It was an implicit and shocking admission of the state's complicity in murder. Ironically, this will only encourage Muslims to go out and vote against Modi. The Election Commission has rightly taken note of his grave electoral malpractice. Sadly, to appear "even-handed", it also issued notice to Sonia Gandhi for her "merchants of death" speech. But the two speeches aren't even remotely comparable. The EC must correct this error of judgment and severely punish Modi. But what Modi most richly deserves is political punishment. Gujarat's electorate should send him packing. The writer is a Delhi-based researcher, peace and human rights activist, and former newspaper editor. Email: prafulbidwai1 at yahoo.co.in http://thenews.jang.com.pk/print1.asp?id=86232 Or http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=86232 --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 6 16:23:17 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 02:53:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Muslims let down by 'secular' media - M B Qasimi (A pre election-result analysis) Message-ID: <900605.46689.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> M Burhanuddin Qasimi certainly seems to have had a better understanding of how things were going and the possible outcome of the Gujarat Elections. That is in sharp contrast to the presumed to be 'secular' commentators and Media who are often referred to by some as pseudo-secular Qasimi's analysis appeared on 22/12/07 in "The Pioneer" (usually seen as a Hindutva-supporting publication). Qasimi was credited with being "The other voice" Qasimi makes the very interesting comment: """"""" Today, the Muslims of Gujarat are wondering whether they need these so-called secularists after all."""""""""" Kshmendra Kaul Muslims let down by 'secular' media The other voice: M Burhanuddin Qasmi (((((((They riled Modi, practically demonised him for his 'communalism', but ended up sharpening the division between Hindus and Muslims. It would have been better if they questioned his claims on development and exposed the suffering of the common Gujarati)))))) I am afraid this time our national media has unwittingly helped Mr Narendra Modi consolidate Hindu majority votes on issues not in the interest of nation. Hordes of journalists and byte-reporters descended on Gujarat to batter Mr Modi as a "communal leader". But the campaign backfired. Today, the Muslims of Gujarat are wondering whether they need these so-called secularists after all. A simple question should strike our minds, especially those in media: How did the Gujarat election campaign derail from issues of the common man and degenerate into a Modi versus Sonia affair? The so-called political analysts in their long columns and 24X7 'direct to home' channels did gross injustice to their professional responsibilities. They portrayed a common politician as either a filmy villain or as a hero- "Gujarat ka gaurav". In the process, they ended up helping that particular individual politically It is notable that in the present globalised world, fame of any kind, good or bad, helps people. For instance, both American President George W Bush and American invention, Osama bin Laden, (let's not forget that he was "discovered" by the Americans as quite useful in the Afghan theatre against the Soviets) are enjoying the fruits of the fame game. Our Bollywood filmmakers are well aware of the prospects of getting free publicity by weaving one or two spicy scenes (or objectionable lines) into the script. Once the requisite hype has been generated (and enough cars burnt), they excise these scenes and laugh their way to the bank. The 174-page State Government publication, Gujarat: Beyond the Obvious -- A Report on Initiatives for Inclusive Growth never became a serious issue for the national media. The hired agency, Ernst & Young, prepared the report to showcase the "successes" of the State Government over the past five years. The Gujarat Government published it two months ahead of the election. Very few of the national newspapers questioned the morality of hiring an expensive multinational consultant that eventually produced nothing more than a colourful compilation of daily press notes sent out by the state information department. But, none of the 'busy' channels, to my knowledge, organised a debate putting the report on the table. Ernst & Young protected its reputation by putting a 'disclaimer' that it neither recommended nor endorsed any specific initiatives, projects or programmes mentioned in the publication. It also declined to assume "liability or responsibility for the outcome or decisions taken as a result of any reliance placed on this publication." This caveat from the 'author' itself put a big question mark on the Modi regime's tall claims of development. The national media, with all its intelligent people, could easily have put Mr Modi on the dock over this. But, instead of alleviating the level of the discourse, they pandered to the lowest common denominator. Then, by supreme irony, the media started accusing Mr Modi of raising "emotive issues"! The lives of ordinary people in Gujarat are plagued by environmental degradation. The Modi Government's reckless industrialisation based on chemicals and petrochemicals has ruined the environment. Thousands of people have been forced to migrate because of these polluting industries. While the rich are making billions, the common Gujarati is suffering. The Gujarat Government acts as if the environment is a central subject. The national media could have focussed on this issue given its importance in the present time when there is much talk of global warming and climate change. But they did not bother. They were content with sharpening communal divisions. Mr Modi is undoubtedly popular. But, it is time to ask - who is responsible for this popularity? I would suggest that his popularity is rooted in his communal and emotional slogans. The media is so obsessed with this aspect that it allows him to get away with all the half-truths and untruths he produces. He goes to meetings of industry associations and claims things like "Gujarat leads the country in power generation". The State purportedly has more than 18,000 villages with uninterrupted power supply. When asked about in education, he claims that the dropout rate among children is down to three per cent. Water is supposed to have reached every village. To my surprise, the national media does not find the time to make a serious examination of these claims of the Modi Government. The Gujarat media, meanwhile, acts like an extension of the State Information Department. The mandate of the Gujarat election is now lying sealed in the EVMs. All exit poll surveys conducted by various media suggest that the BJP improved its performance towards the end of the campaign and is likely to return with an impressive performance in the second phase of polling. Mr Modi is a formidable icon for Hindutva politics in India. His defeat or victory would have implications on national politics. This fact is known in the country's intellectual forums. It is the media that originally helped construct this fact. In 2007, we saw the media becoming part and parcel of Mr Modi's message for the country. -- The writer is a Director of Markazul Ma'arif Education & Research Centre, Mumbai http://www.dailypioneer.com/displayit1.asp?pathit=/archives2/dec2207/oped/opd3.txt --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 6 16:58:56 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 03:28:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Why the idea of Modi wins - Bhanu Pratap Mehta (A post election-result comment) Message-ID: <370283.63638.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Bhanu Pratap Mehta, writing in Indian Express on 24/12/07. Two interesting extracts: 1. """""" Modi’s win calls for a serious reflection on the so-called secular/ communal divide. Why does secular politics carry less credibility than it ought to? Why does secularism remain a mere slogan, a straw that bends in every wind? Part of the reason is that the secular/communal divide is not, as the Congress would like to believe, a divide between two species of Indian citizens: one secular and one communal. It is a fissure that runs within most citizens, rather than between them. """""" 2. """""" Secular politics India has become an astonishing combination of imbecility, indecision and indolence. With Modi now becoming a preeminent figure in national politics, the risks of running with the Congress’s construal of what constitutes secular politics are even higher. How ironic it is that that arch polariser of Indian politics, Modi, who should be saying that poverty has no religion.""""" Kshmendra Kaul Why the idea of Modi wins Pratap Bhanu Mehta Posted online: Monday, December 24, 2007 at 0000 hrs IST Narendra Modi’s victory in Gujarat elections is a watershed in Indian politics. The fact that a chief minister is re-elected for a third term would have been a feat of monumental significance. But the scale and the context of the victory make it a watershed in Indian politics. This victory subverts every cliché. Incumbents can’t win, they said. Modi proved them wrong. Sonia Gandhi has acquired a new aggression, they said. Modi cut her down to size. Caste equations would work against Modi, they said. Modi managed to rise above standard caste politics. India is experiencing a political backlash against growth, they said. Modi has ridiculed that idea. It is impossible to win if a significant section of the party works against you, they said. Modi has proved that the party is dependent on the leader rather than the other way round. You can’t cater to both tribals and capitalists, they said. Modi has turned this logic on its head. So-called normal politics would triumph over the politics of polarisation, they said. Modi has made nonsense of this distinction. Modi has created a new paradigm in Indian politics, whose ramifications will be felt for years to come. Modi’s win calls for a serious reflection on the so-called secular/ communal divide. Why does secular politics carry less credibility than it ought to? Why does secularism remain a mere slogan, a straw that bends in every wind? Part of the reason is that the secular/communal divide is not, as the Congress would like to believe, a divide between two species of Indian citizens: one secular and one communal. It is a fissure that runs within most citizens, rather than between them. On the one hand, there is an easy acceptance of diversity, a discomfort with a politics that is too polarising, and an acknowledgment of modern constitutional values. On the other, there is group competition, a sense of incomplete nationhood for which someone must be held responsible, and fear. What gains the upper hand in our psychic economies, is a product of a complex politics. Managing this contradictory psychic complex requires, as Gandhi understood better than anyone else, a subtle therapeutic politics. But such subtlety is beyond the Congress. It too has acquired a deep investment in a politics of competitiveness amongst groups. It has exacerbated a paradigm of citizenship where caste and religion, rather than becoming irrelevant to people’s rights and opportunities, become more central to their self-understanding. And it projects opportunism rather than trust. Secular politics India has become an astonishing combination of imbecility, indecision and indolence. With Modi now becoming a preeminent figure in national politics, the risks of running with the Congress’s construal of what constitutes secular politics are even higher. How ironic it is that that arch polariser of Indian politics, Modi, who should be saying that poverty has no religion. And how tragic that the Congress has not learnt the lessons of eighties and cannot rise above a politics of caste and religion that gives aid and succour to the politics of resentment that Modi thrives on. It was famously said of Napoleon that he could represent himself as France, because France consisted of little Napoleons. If Modi has gained some acceptance, it may not be because each citizen in Gujarat is a little Modi, but it is because we do have something of a little Modi in us. When Modi says, jo thare dil me che, woi mahre dil me che, he is tugging at something. The worrying trend for our democracy is that Modi is yet another symptom of our yearning for a politics that is anti-political. It is not an accident that our strongest leaders at the state level are either those who have completely merged the party into their personalities, or completely sidelined their parties. Most of these leaders cannot sustain their hold for too long; they come to be tainted with the same veniality that made their parties lose credibility. So instead of trusting the messy processes of institutions like parties representing us, we yearn for greater personification; some figure that can stand above veniality. Again, it used to be said of Napoleon that the one thing he was incapable of was pettiness, especially in his crimes. A successful politician has to claim to stand for something big and larger than himself (and sometimes these ideas are dangerous) whether it be the Idea of India, Dalit Emancipation, of Gujarati or Dravidian Pride. It is again not an accident that the Congress and the BJP have no idea they personify, just an endless series of petty compromises and inept second guessings. The two most politically interesting leaders in India are Modi and Mayawati. One wears the mantle of ideology, the other of a social cause. Congress has neither. We should be under no illusion: what Modi represents by way of ideology still has the capacity to wreck this country; and it will be an astonishing feat if Modi can transform himself into a genuine statesman. But, equally, we should be under no illusion that the Congress provides the fuel that lights Modi’s fire. And the blaze now threatens to engulf them. While most of the media was focused on the intellectually dead-end Hindutva versus Development debate, the real issue in the campaign was Modi’s personal attributes: his incorruptibility, his total dedication, his grim reaper-like character calling everyone to account. There is more than a touch of megalomania and narcissism in Modi. But that gives him an advantage. The first is a projection of utter sincerity. He is not a creature shaped by the opinion of others, and every initiative he takes belongs to him. Contrast this with almost every other politician. These politicians seem creatures largely of opinion. Like our prime minister, they disavow their own responsibility at every turn. In politics, if the contest is between sincerity and an utter lack of trustworthiness, the former will always have an advantage even if tied to an unsavoury cause. Finally, it is sheer nonsense to say that Modi will pose a problem for the BJP more than the Congress. This is the sort of wishful thinking that has led many a pollster to clutch at straws. The BJP will emerge more unified and energised. His victory raises the spectre of a more polarising politics. But as India transforms, the tragedy is that no other politician can understand, “thare dil me kya che?” Most of them are too cowardly to even understand what is in their own hearts. This is why Modi stands out. The writer is president, Centre for Policy Research pratapbmehta at yahoo.co.in --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 18:08:08 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:08:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UN-CERD urges the Indian Govt to repeal the AFSPA within 1 year. Message-ID: <4780CBB0.8080402@gmail.com> Dear Friends Manipur Solidarity Forum Bangalore invites you for a Press meet & Discussion on recommendations of The UN Committee on Elimination of Racial Discrimination to repeal Armed Force Special Power Act 1958 WHERE : SCM House, (behind Priyadarshini Handlooms), CSI compound, Mission Road, Bangalore. WHEN : 11 AM, 07/01/2008 Monday Contact : 09446545336 / 09945282056 / 9844798907 Activist from North East Dialogue forum, Nobo Kishore & Miranjan Loitongbam will be present on the meeting For a Briefing note on AFSPA see http://manipurfreedom.org/briefing_of_the_afspa -- Solidarity Anivar -------------- The UN Committee on Elimination of Racial Discrimination urges the Indian Government to repeal the AFSPA within one year time. United Nations Committee on Racial Discrimination under the International Convention on Elimination of all Forms of Racial Discrimination discussed seriously the periodic reports of India (CERD/C/IND/19) at Geneva on 23rd and 26th February 2007. Further the committee at its 1809th meeting (CERD/C/SR.1809) held on 6th March 2007 adopted in its Concluding observation of paragraph 12 page no. 3 on Armed Forces (Special Power) Act 1956. The Committee notes with concern that the State party has not implemented the recommendations of the Committee to Review the Armed Forces Special Power Act 1958 to repeal the Act under which members of the armed forces may not be prosecuted unless such prosecution is authorised by the Central Government and have wide powers to search and arrest suspects without a warrant or to use forces against persons or property in Manipur and other north-eastern states which are inhabited by tribal peoples (art. 2(1)(c), 5(b), (d) and (6) The Committee urges the State party to repeal the Armed Forces special Power Act and to replace it “by a more human Act.” In accordance with the recommendations contained in the 2005 report of the above Review Committee set up by the Ministry of Home Affairs. It also requests the state party to release the report. AFSPA is designed in 1958 by GOI especially for the North east states of India, therefore the Act is discriminatory to the people in this part of the world. It is important to note that the committee at its paragraphs No. 34 page 8 of the concluding observation recommended with pursuant to Article 9, paragraph 1, of the Convention, and article 65 of the Committee’s Rule of Procedure as amended, the Committee request that the Govt. of India to implement its recommendation contain at paragraphs 12 within one year. We look forward concern and solidarity to all the media. Without your support it is impossible to make aware the people and get their support. From mail at shivamvij.com Sun Jan 6 22:59:06 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:59:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Gujarat's Muslims Message-ID: <9c06aab30801060929i4b209d00t2168171a2eb8e130@mail.gmail.com> Everybody loves a victim Neelesh Misra, Hindustan Times December 10, 2007 First Published: 20:56 IST(10/12/2007) Last Updated: 21:06 IST(10/12/2007) Labels come easy and crisp in Gujarat. Pro-Modi. Anti-Modi. For the rest of the world, you are either with him or against him. Which is why when it comes to the Muslims of Gujarat, and the Muslim victims of the 2002 riots, it is best to stick to the safe story: Muslims live in mortal fear in Gujarat and non-governmental organisations have given a new life to riot victims. Or, I could tell you the truth — how many in the media and many NGOs want to keep Gujarat's Muslims refrigerated as 'victims' for all foreseeable times to come — even if those in the community don't want to be seen as victims, even if it works against them, and even if they want to unshackle themselves and get on with their lives for their future. How else does one explain the media's complete inability — or reluctance — to describe Gujarat's Muslims in no way other than whiners? How can they not see and write about Gujaratis like the maulana I met who bought an apartment from his stock market earnings, the Muslims running English-medium schools in the ghettos, the stock broker who lost everything in the riots and went on to pioneer Islamic finance in India, the riot survivors now writing TOEFL exams and getting ready to go overseas to study? Or the sprawling Jamiat Ulema-e-Hind school for riot and earthquake orphans — Hindus and Muslims —in remote Kutch that has changed hundreds of lives? Or how they ignore simple facts: Muslims in Gujarat have a literacy rate of 73 per cent, more than Muslims anywhere, and more than the national average. Gujarat's 45 lakh Muslims — just over 9 per cent of the state's population — fare better than the national average for all religions on several counts including sex ratio and work participation. Yes, Muslims and Hindus don't get homes in each other's neighbourhoods. There is actually a law in Gujarat that bans such sales in several places. Yes, Muslims do feel discriminated against in many areas. But they are doing all this despite all that. Modi or no Modi, Gujarat's Muslims are armed with the supreme weapon that every Gujarati is armed with: their centuries-old entrepreneurial spirit. No amount of imposed victimhood can take that away. Yet, there is a deep and astounding disconnect between what we in the media believe the condition of Gujarat's Muslims to be and what it actually is. And maybe there is a lesson in that. Still, the image of Gujarat's Muslims as perceived outside Gujarat and outside India is one we have created and nurtured: that they are helpless victims, no better than second-class citizens. Then there are the NGOs. Many of these organisations took money from the riot victims before letting them live there. In Godhra, for example, a two-room set with plastered walls took about Rs 33,000 to build, and the families paid Rs 20,000 each for them. They begged and borrowed from friends and family members, scrounged and somehow put together the amounts. That doesn't sound like relief to me. It sounds like a subsidised real estate deal. Worse, these families don't even own these two-room sets. The properties have not been transferred in their names and they are technically illegal squatters. The head of the Islamic Relief Committee, which supervised these constructions, told me that this was done "so that the riot victims don't sell those homes... that sort of thing happens here". And that money was taken from them "so that they know that everything does not come free". Then there's the place that provoked the National Commission of Minorities to state, "If there is hell under the sun, it is here." Citizen Nagar, a neighbourhood in Ahmedabad, is where Muslim riot victims live next to the city's largest garbage dump, where sewage flows through their lanes in the monsoons and they battle disease and squalor. For five years, Citizen Nagar is, for the NGOs, the symbol of what is wrong with Gujarat's Muslims. They lost their livelihoods, they are far from their places of work, schools or medical facilities. But who chose that location? Who bought the land and resettled the families near the reeking garbage dump? The same NGOs who are complaining today. Rather than encourage and prepare them to return home or to rebuild their lives, the NGOs, according to a prominent Muslim philanthropist, "threw money at the families and created victims for life". It was haphazard, poorly thought out and downright cruel. First the mad rioters killed people and Modi's government looked the other way. And since then, the media and many NGOs are trying to ensure that they always remain just that: victims. From anujbhuwania at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 10:05:22 2008 From: anujbhuwania at gmail.com (Anuj Bhuwania) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:05:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Invitation: JNU Distinguished Lecture, Prof. Marc Galanter, January 16, 2008 Message-ID: The Centre for the Study of Law and Governance Jawaharlal Nehru University cordially invites you to its Special Distinguished Lecture by Prof. Marc Galanter John and Rylla Bosshard Professor of Law and South Asian Studies University of Wisconsin - Madison and LSE Centennial Professor London School of Economics and Political Science On Everyday Justice in India with Justice Dr. S. Muralidhar, Delhi High Court in the Chair Wednesday, 16 January 2008, 5.00 PM School of Arts and Aesthetics Auditorium, JNU You are requested to join us for tea after the lecture RSVP: Tel.: 2670 4021, Email: dir_cslg at mail.jnu.ac.in From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 15:53:22 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:53:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Richard Stallman's talk Jan 08, 2008, Seminar Hall IIT Delhi 5 PM Message-ID: <4781FD9A.2010407@gmail.com> Dear All, Richard M Stallman, Leader of the Free Software Movement, will beelivering a talk at IIT Delhi Venue: Seminar Hall, IIT Delhi Date: Jan 08, 2008 (Tuesday) Time: 5: 00 PM All are invited. Stallman is the founder of the Free Software Foundation (FSF) which is dedicated to promoting computer users' rights to study, copy, modify and redistribute computer programmes. `Free as in freedom' being its credo, FSF promotes the GNU operating system widely used today in its GNU/Linux variant, based on the kernel Linux developed by Linus Torvalds. Worldwide, there are more than 20 million users of GNU/Linux systems today. Stallman used what came to be known as `copyleft' to protect the ideal of his movement and enshrined the concept in the widely used GNU General Public License. His accomplishments as a programmer include the text editor Emacs, the compiler GCC and the debugger GDB, all of which are part of the GNU project. The maverick crusader, who prefers to be called `rms' wrote in the first dictionary of hackers that `Richard Stallman is just my mundane name, you can call me rms.' The need for free software is crucial for a developing country like India where there is a constant struggle for cost-effective solutions. Free software can also help bridge the country's digital divide by encouraging collaboration and community work among programmers and users. -- Anivar Aravind From prem.cnt at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 08:09:47 2008 From: prem.cnt at gmail.com (Prem Chandavarkar) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 08:09:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Archive is not memory: Response II to Prem In-Reply-To: <702202.89625.qm@web8515.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <7e230b560801052047y7ed8b75ds8abe3ac71e39230a@mail.gmail.com> <702202.89625.qm@web8515.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7e230b560801071839r33993390gab944ddf815ed4b0@mail.gmail.com> Hi Arnab, This is getting very interesting. Is your question really about "history" or is it about "archives"? If one argues for a history that is specific, postivist, empirical and subsequently detemporalised - then all kinds of questions arise - and the question of archives is just one of them. But if one argues that history is always temporalised, then the topic, and all its connotations on the question of disciplinarity, take on a totally different hue. What is your stand here? To add some more fuel to the fire, let me quote Hayden White from his book "Tropics of Discourse": " In my view, history as a discipline is in bad shape today because it has lost sight of its origins in the literary imagination. In the interest of appearing scientific and objective, it has repressed and denied to itself its greatest source of strength and renewal. By drawing historiography back once more to an intimate connection with its literary basis, we should not only be putting ourselves on guard against merely ideological distortions, we should be by way of arriving at that 'theory' of history without which it cannot pass for a 'discipline' at all." Regards, Prem On 07/01/2008, ARNAB CHATTERJEE wrote: > > Dear Prem, > Your humility is astonishing but loving. If > you think your comments are non technical and > nonperplexing, I shall ask your archive of audacious > tumult as to where did you get them. > Now, I must acknowledge you and Sadan for > helping me and many get a sense of the problems at > stake; and now I'll be able to catalogue the questions > in a precise manner. So any engagement would be a bit > predisposed but still a bit of self clarification I > assume would contribute and not limit that what is > here. > Your first question is this : "Is there any > activity that is possible that is not touched by > archives?" Firstly we should not use archives as a > name for any form of collection. The archival logic is > a part of the one time emergent public sphere where > museums, displays etc achieved a new meaning in frozen > and empty time. Here I can cite one argument which > should have come later (u've taxed it out of me): > History which gets validated by the archives is > pushed out of time : history which is time--linked > discipline in a sense--is thus detemporalized. Let us > take a more practical argument : if everything is > touched by the archives then any thing I write about a > particular temporal shelf ( say, past) would be > archival history. You banish the specificity of > empirical, positivist historiography. > 2) Secondly, I quote you : "it is tantamount to a > claim that one can step into a position that is free > from memory." Firstly, memory, recollection, > reminiscience --are they the same? Memory I think is > the cognitive instrument by which we re-collect, it is > not recollection. Now a short twist, if this is > correct, then re-membering or re-collection is a new > act, a repitiion while archive is only collection. > Re-collection orders them once again; and because it > is a new act, I'll argue it is a different act. You > are conflating two different things together. > How is this now, dear prem? > with love > arnab > > > --- Prem Chandavarkar wrote: > > > Dear Arnab, > > I am afraid I find the questions you raise rather > > technical and perplexing > > (which is perhaps due to my limitations more than > > anything else). But to > > me, the starting point is another question: Is there > > any activity that is > > possible that is not touched by archives? I find it > > difficult to answer yes > > to this question, because it is tantamount to a > > claim that one can step into > > a position that is free from memory. I do not read > > the Foucauldean > > geneology as a claim to archives as being > > foundational, but rather as a > > critique of claims that one can either be free of > > archives, or to treat > > archives as substantive truth. > > > > So my later questions about alertness revolves > > around how we choose to > > construct history as a discipline: whether it is a > > factual description that > > uses foundational archives, or whether it is a > > moment located in the present > > that centres around the question of "What do we > > choose to remember?" > > > > Regards, > > Prem > > > > > > On 04/01/2008, ARNAB CHATTERJEE > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Prem, > > > I think the questions are already > > > separate and needs to be rephrased if you want it > > the > > > way you've put it. > > > 1. The question is not whether WE need > > archives > > > or not( there are many things which exist even if > > we > > > don't need them); lets talk in terms of practices > > and > > > ask, infact that is what I've asked, what sort of > > > practices need archives?What sort of practices > > don't > > > need them? Does philosophical history ( I have in > > mind > > > the Hegelian or the Kantian kind) need the > > archival > > > backing? Does Nietzschean or Foucauldean genealogy > > > need it? With all its distrust of origins, what is > > the > > > status of the use of sources in Foucault? ( > > Mahmood > > > for instance asked, will the Foucauldian > > enterprise > > > remain intact if his source materialiastic > > resources > > > are removed? I think yes but many will say no, > > lets > > > discuss it . What is the difference between > > origins > > > and sources? --and join in other questions I've > > > already asked and has been asked by many of us and > > > others. > > > 2. Secondly, in response to the phrasing of your > > > second question, let me tell you and all, the > > answer > > > we would like to know is not whether archives > > are > > > neutral or not ( You know and have told the > > answer), > > > but whether the question of neutrality can itself > > be > > > based on the archives. Your other questions stand > > > automatically modified in regard to the revision > > of > > > your two questions I've made. It'll be great if > > you > > > attempt to answer them for us. > > > > > > Thanking you > > > with apologies for making frequent postings ( > > even > > > though I'm not a hindu right)but immediate > > responses I > > > guess will put the debate in perspective and > > maintain > > > it.) > > > Arnab > > > > > > --- Prem Chandavarkar wrote: > > > > > > > Are we not confusing two questions here which > > need > > > > to be kept separate: > > > > 1. Do we need archives? > > > > 2. Are archives neutral? > > > > The answer to each question could be different. > > We > > > > would probably say yes to > > > > the first and no to the second. In which case > > we > > > > confront the need for a > > > > critical and discerning alertness when we > > consider > > > > archives. Which raises > > > > some other questions such as: > > > > 1. What are the ethical dimensions and > > compulsions > > > > of this alertness? > > > > 2. How does it shape the discipline of history? > > > > 3. How does it determine what we consider an > > > > archive? > > > > 4. How does it determine where we search for > > > > archives? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Prem > > > > > > > > > > > > On 04/01/2008, ARNAB CHATTERJEE > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sadan, > > > > > Thank you! Your prompt response > > > > actually > > > > > begins the discussion where I gues others will > > > > soon > > > > > join in and we shall all learn and unlearn > > from > > > > each > > > > > other in a very very creative way. > > > > > You do recognise Foucault and I think let us > > limit > > > > > ourselves to a few texts in the beginning. I > > shall > > > > > keep aside Derrida and Agamben on archives, > > since > > > > none > > > > > of them claimed to have been practising > > genealogy > > > > like > > > > > Foucault. And my hunch was simply this : to > > > > involve > > > > > many who have been doing things on archives > > etc > > > > and > > > > > make such an involved statement as you've > > done. It > > > > is > > > > > not a comment on yr text in the Censor book. > > But > > > > your > > > > > one might be engaged later while we discuss > > memory > > > > vis > > > > > a vis Foucault and Nietzsche. I'm perturbed by > > one > > > > > question here and let me state that for all : > > > > > genealogy has a problem with origins ( > > singular or > > > > > not) and therefore distrusts history but still > > > > > Foucault calls for heavy documentation using > > > > volatile > > > > > sources : What is the difference between > > sources > > > > and > > > > > origins? > > > > > And Sadan, neither I'm making a case for > > the > > > > non > > > > > existence of archives. I'm far from making any > > > > such > > > > > logistical suggestions, I'm troubled by the > > > > compulsion > > > > > with which the question of the archive is > > driven > > > > at > > > > > some who have been trying to practise > > something > > > > > else.This question remains to be settled, yes > > I am > > > > > sincere here and I can quote you major > > incidents > > > > here > > > > > and abroad. Let us try to find a way out. > > > > > So, its purely an academic question for me and > > I > > > > think > > > > > all of us. > > > > > More soon > > > > > love > > > > > arnab > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- "sadan at sarai.net" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Arnab, > > > > > > thanks for suggestion to reread Foucault on > > > > > > archives. Agamben may be > > > > > > another person to consider in this > > excercise. > > > > Tow > > > > > > quick respond, we also > > > > > > need to read Foucault's geneology, > > Nietzsche... > > > > as a > > > > > > point in between his > > > > > > earlier 'Archeology' and his lecutures... > > and > > > > then > > > > > > his power/knowledge. > > > > > > The point i was trying to raise in my > > article > > > > though > > > > > > is not whether we need > > > > > > archives or not but how archives can be > > > > profitably > > > > > > seen from vantage points > > > > > > of different sets of people. > > > > > > thanks. > > > > > > sadan. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 4:53 pm 01/03/08 ARNAB CHATTERJEE > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > Now atlast I'm geared up to rise > > and > > > > make > > > > > > > reviews of sentences we talked and > > questions > > > > we > > > > > > > answered or left them out at our last > > meeting > > > > in > > > > > > > Delhi. > > > > > > > First my conversation with mahmood > > farooqui > > > > and > > > > > > this > > > > > > > is simultaneously for Sadan Jha and Ritwik > > > > > > > Bhattacharya ( our own Kolkata archive > > > > theorist) > > > > > > as > > > > > > > well ( having read sadan's stuff on > > archive > > > > in > > > > > > > CENSOR..book etc. and Ritwik's research on > > the > > > > > > archive > > > > > > > and our own debate ehether pornography > > could > > > > have > > > > > > an > > > > > > > archival living or not). Does > > philosophical > > > > > > history > > > > > > > need archival materials? Does genealogy > > need > > > > > > archives? > > > > > > > My answer is unequivocal "No". I'll go > > into > > > > the > > > > > > > speculated details in my next post-- a bit > > of > > > > > > detail, > > > > > > > that is. But I'll first submit to mahmood > > > > farooqui > > > > > > and > > > > > > > my friends to reread Foucault's > > 'Nietzsche, > > > > > > genealogy > > > > > > > and History' because there is stuff for > > both > > > > sides > > > > > > and > > > > > > > I think Foucault simply puts his own > > oeuvre > > > > down > > > > > > by > > > > > > > claiming a case for vast source materials > > once > > > > and > > > > > > > then declaiming by saying archival > > materials > > > > have > > > > > > > their origin in a sort of non archival > > trace. > > > > I'll > > > > > > > argue, we could start by asking again , > > > > whether > > > > > > the > > > > > > > necessity of archives arises from within > > the > > > > > > archives. > > > > > > > If not, what are the consequences? > > > > > > > And another hint,Foucault is helped by > > > > Nietzsche > > > > > > here, > > > > > > > but consider Nietzsche's career as a > > > > genealogist( > > > > > > e.g > > > > > > > of values): how much of a source > > materialist > > > > he > > > > > > was, > > > > > > > how deep referential? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets get onto the game, the outwork > > once > > > > more. > > > > > > > Un happy new year to all > > > > > > > arnab > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited > > mail > > > > > > storage is just a > > > > > > > click away. Go to > > > > > > > > > > > > https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail > > > > storage is just a click > > > > > away. Go to > > > > > > https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media > > and > > > > the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go > > to > > > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups > > > > > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click > away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > From sadan at sarai.net Tue Jan 8 11:45:57 2008 From: sadan at sarai.net (sadan at sarai.net) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 11:45:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Archive is not memory: Response II to Prem In-Reply-To: <7e230b560801071839r33993390gab944ddf815ed4b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <7e230b560801052047y7ed8b75ds8abe3ac71e39230a@mail.gmail.com> <702202.89625.qm@web8515.mail.in.yahoo.com> <7e230b560801071839r33993390gab944ddf815ed4b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6ffaa1ff91508b568181ec299e8cd045@sarai.net> Dear Arnab and Prem Hi! Arnab, I do not understand what would you achieve by writing: "Firstly we should not use archives as a name for any form of collection. The archival logic is a part of the one time emergent public sphere where museums, displays etc achieved a new meaning in frozen and empty time." Where does it come from? This is how disciplinary history has hegemonised meanings of archives. You move outside this frame and the term archives appears very different. What is this difference? How is this difference articulated and voiced and practiced and erased by history? Well that can be one line of enquiry. The other line would be to track the traces, footprints, marks of things archival lost in different processes. This would be about the history of the archives. But other way would be to liberate archives (if I use a provcative and meaning-less term) from the history. liberating from history and relocating into the memory or into ways of looking at past (here I am thinking on the line of Nandy, history's forgotten doubles). Another way would be to think about a digital photo as archives, or human body as archives. Going back to your statement mentioned in the beginning, the question would be on what grounds this deployment of the word can be differntiated from the ways in which archives is used by professional historians. If the epistemological affect different? The readymade and easy answer, the question of roots, geneology, history would not answer this. But why not? And this precisely where I find it difficult to agree with the line of questioning Prem has adopted. Looking at archives away from history is easy said than done. Can archives exists without refering back to history?This makes the question of the archives simple. For a long time, archives has been a domain of the history lets free it? This can be a political call but the issue is how to convert it as intellectual project? I am not sure...I am not very confortable with Derrida on this point either. wishes, sadan. On 8:09 am 01/08/08 "Prem Chandavarkar" wrote: > Hi Arnab, > This is getting very interesting. > Is your question really about "history" or is it about "archives"? > If one argues for a history that is specific, postivist, empirical > and subsequently detemporalised - then all kinds of questions arise > - and the question of archives is just one of them. But if one argues > that history is always temporalised, then the topic, and all its > connotations on the question of disciplinarity, take on a totally > different hue. What is your stand here? > > To add some more fuel to the fire, let me quote Hayden White from his > book "Tropics of Discourse": > " In my view, history as a discipline is in bad shape today because > it has lost sight of its origins in the literary imagination. In the > interest of appearing scientific and objective, it has repressed and > denied to itself its greatest source of strength and renewal. By > drawing historiography back once more to an intimate connection with > its literary basis, we should not only be putting ourselves on guard > against merely ideological distortions, we should be by way of > arriving at that 'theory' of history without which it cannot pass for > a 'discipline' at all." > > Regards, > Prem > > On 07/01/2008, ARNAB CHATTERJEE wrote: > > > > Dear Prem, > > Your humility is astonishing but loving. If > > you think your comments are non technical and > > nonperplexing, I shall ask your archive of audacious > > tumult as to where did you get them. > > Now, I must acknowledge you and Sadan for > > helping me and many get a sense of the problems at > > stake; and now I'll be able to catalogue the questions > > in a precise manner. So any engagement would be a bit > > predisposed but still a bit of self clarification I > > assume would contribute and not limit that what is > > here. > > Your first question is this : "Is there any > > activity that is possible that is not touched by > > archives?" Firstly we should not use archives as a > > name for any form of collection. The archival logic is > > a part of the one time emergent public sphere where > > museums, displays etc achieved a new meaning in frozen > > and empty time. Here I can cite one argument which > > should have come later (u've taxed it out of me): > > History which gets validated by the archives is > > pushed out of time : history which is time--linked > > discipline in a sense--is thus detemporalized. Let us > > take a more practical argument : if everything is > > touched by the archives then any thing I write about a > > particular temporal shelf ( say, past) would be > > archival history. You banish the specificity of > > empirical, positivist historiography. > > 2) Secondly, I quote you : "it is tantamount to a > > claim that one can step into a position that is free > > from memory." Firstly, memory, recollection, > > reminiscience --are they the same? Memory I think is > > the cognitive instrument by which we re-collect, it is > > not recollection. Now a short twist, if this is > > correct, then re-membering or re-collection is a new > > act, a repitiion while archive is only collection. > > Re-collection orders them once again; and because it > > is a new act, I'll argue it is a different act. You > > are conflating two different things together. > > How is this now, dear prem? > > with love > > arnab > > > > > > --- Prem Chandavarkar wrote: > > > > > Dear Arnab, > > > I am afraid I find the questions you raise rather > > > technical and perplexing > > > (which is perhaps due to my limitations more than > > > anything else). But to > > > me, the starting point is another question: Is there > > > any activity that is > > > possible that is not touched by archives? I find it > > > difficult to answer yes > > > to this question, because it is tantamount to a > > > claim that one can step into > > > a position that is free from memory. I do not read > > > the Foucauldean > > > geneology as a claim to archives as being > > > foundational, but rather as a > > > critique of claims that one can either be free of > > > archives, or to treat > > > archives as substantive truth. > > > > > > So my later questions about alertness revolves > > > around how we choose to > > > construct history as a discipline: whether it is a > > > factual description that > > > uses foundational archives, or whether it is a > > > moment located in the present > > > that centres around the question of "What do we > > > choose to remember?" > > > > > > Regards, > > > Prem > > > > > > > > > On 04/01/2008, ARNAB CHATTERJEE > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Prem, > > > > I think the questions are already > > > > separate and needs to be rephrased if you want it > > > the > > > > way you've put it. > > > > 1. The question is not whether WE need > > > archives > > > > or not( there are many things which exist even if > > > we > > > > don't need them); lets talk in terms of practices > > > and > > > > ask, infact that is what I've asked, what sort of > > > > practices need archives?What sort of practices > > > don't > > > > need them? Does philosophical history ( I have in > > > mind > > > > the Hegelian or the Kantian kind) need the > > > archival > > > > backing? Does Nietzschean or Foucauldean genealogy > > > > need it? With all its distrust of origins, what is > > > the > > > > status of the use of sources in Foucault? ( > > > Mahmood > > > > for instance asked, will the Foucauldian > > > enterprise > > > > remain intact if his source materialiastic > > > resources > > > > are removed? I think yes but many will say no, > > > lets > > > > discuss it . What is the difference between > > > origins > > > > and sources? --and join in other questions I've > > > > already asked and has been asked by many of us and > > > > others. > > > > 2. Secondly, in response to the phrasing of your > > > > second question, let me tell you and all, the > > > answer > > > > we would like to know is not whether archives > > > are > > > > neutral or not ( You know and have told the > > > answer), > > > > but whether the question of neutrality can itself > > > be > > > > based on the archives. Your other questions stand > > > > automatically modified in regard to the revision > > > of > > > > your two questions I've made. It'll be great if > > > you > > > > attempt to answer them for us. > > > > > > > > Thanking you > > > > with apologies for making frequent postings ( > > > even > > > > though I'm not a hindu right)but immediate > > > responses I > > > > guess will put the debate in perspective and > > > maintain > > > > it.) > > > > Arnab > > > > > > > > --- Prem Chandavarkar wrote: > > > > > > > > > Are we not confusing two questions here which > > > need > > > > > to be kept separate: > > > > > 1. Do we need archives? > > > > > 2. Are archives neutral? > > > > > The answer to each question could be different. > > > We > > > > > would probably say yes to > > > > > the first and no to the second. In which case > > > we > > > > > confront the need for a > > > > > critical and discerning alertness when we > > > consider > > > > > archives. Which raises > > > > > some other questions such as: > > > > > 1. What are the ethical dimensions and > > > compulsions > > > > > of this alertness? > > > > > 2. How does it shape the discipline of history? > > > > > 3. How does it determine what we consider an > > > > > archive? > > > > > 4. How does it determine where we search for > > > > > archives? > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Prem > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 04/01/2008, ARNAB CHATTERJEE > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sadan, > > > > > > Thank you! Your prompt response > > > > > actually > > > > > > begins the discussion where I gues others will > > > > > soon > > > > > > join in and we shall all learn and unlearn > > > from > > > > > each > > > > > > other in a very very creative way. > > > > > > You do recognise Foucault and I think let us > > > limit > > > > > > ourselves to a few texts in the beginning. I > > > shall > > > > > > keep aside Derrida and Agamben on archives, > > > since > > > > > none > > > > > > of them claimed to have been practising > > > genealogy > > > > > like > > > > > > Foucault. And my hunch was simply this : to > > > > > involve > > > > > > many who have been doing things on archives > > > etc > > > > > and > > > > > > make such an involved statement as you've > > > done. It > > > > > is > > > > > > not a comment on yr text in the Censor book. > > > But > > > > > your > > > > > > one might be engaged later while we discuss > > > memory > > > > > vis > > > > > > a vis Foucault and Nietzsche. I'm perturbed by > > > one > > > > > > question here and let me state that for all : > > > > > > genealogy has a problem with origins ( > > > singular or > > > > > > not) and therefore distrusts history but still > > > > > > Foucault calls for heavy documentation using > > > > > volatile > > > > > > sources : What is the difference between > > > sources > > > > > and > > > > > > origins? > > > > > > And Sadan, neither I'm making a case for > > > the > > > > > non > > > > > > existence of archives. I'm far from making any > > > > > such > > > > > > logistical suggestions, I'm troubled by the > > > > > compulsion > > > > > > with which the question of the archive is > > > driven > > > > > at > > > > > > some who have been trying to practise > > > something > > > > > > else.This question remains to be settled, yes > > > I am > > > > > > sincere here and I can quote you major > > > incidents > > > > > here > > > > > > and abroad. Let us try to find a way out. > > > > > > So, its purely an academic question for me and > > > I > > > > > think > > > > > > all of us. > > > > > > More soon > > > > > > love > > > > > > arnab > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- "sadan at sarai.net" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Arnab, > > > > > > > thanks for suggestion to reread Foucault on > > > > > > > archives. Agamben may be > > > > > > > another person to consider in this > > > excercise. > > > > > Tow > > > > > > > quick respond, we also > > > > > > > need to read Foucault's geneology, > > > Nietzsche... > > > > > as a > > > > > > > point in between his > > > > > > > earlier 'Archeology' and his lecutures... > > > and > > > > > then > > > > > > > his power/knowledge. > > > > > > > The point i was trying to raise in my > > > article > > > > > though > > > > > > > is not whether we need > > > > > > > archives or not but how archives can be > > > > > profitably > > > > > > > seen from vantage points > > > > > > > of different sets of people. > > > > > > > thanks. > > > > > > > sadan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 4:53 pm 01/03/08 ARNAB CHATTERJEE > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > Now atlast I'm geared up to rise > > > and > > > > > make > > > > > > > > reviews of sentences we talked and > > > questions > > > > > we > > > > > > > > answered or left them out at our last > > > meeting > > > > > in > > > > > > > > Delhi. > > > > > > > > First my conversation with mahmood > > > farooqui > > > > > and > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > is simultaneously for Sadan Jha and Ritwik > > > > > > > > Bhattacharya ( our own Kolkata archive > > > > > theorist) > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > well ( having read sadan's stuff on > > > archive > > > > > in > > > > > > > > CENSOR..book etc. and Ritwik's research on > > > the > > > > > > > archive > > > > > > > > and our own debate ehether pornography > > > could > > > > > have > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > archival living or not). Does > > > philosophical > > > > > > > history > > > > > > > > need archival materials? Does genealogy > > > need > > > > > > > archives? > > > > > > > > My answer is unequivocal "No". I'll go > > > into > > > > > the > > > > > > > > speculated details in my next post-- a bit > > > of > > > > > > > detail, > > > > > > > > that is. But I'll first submit to mahmood > > > > > farooqui > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > my friends to reread Foucault's > > > 'Nietzsche, > > > > > > > genealogy > > > > > > > > and History' because there is stuff for > > > both > > > > > sides > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > I think Foucault simply puts his own > > > oeuvre > > > > > down > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > claiming a case for vast source materials > > > once > > > > > and > > > > > > > > then declaiming by saying archival > > > materials > > > > > have > > > > > > > > their origin in a sort of non archival > > > trace. > > > > > I'll > > > > > > > > argue, we could start by asking again , > > > > > whether > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > necessity of archives arises from within > > > the > > > > > > > archives. > > > > > > > > If not, what are the consequences? > > > > > > > > And another hint,Foucault is helped by > > > > > Nietzsche > > > > > > > here, > > > > > > > > but consider Nietzsche's career as a > > > > > genealogist( > > > > > > > e.g > > > > > > > > of values): how much of a source > > > materialist > > > > > he > > > > > > > was, > > > > > > > > how deep referential? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets get onto the game, the outwork > > > once > > > > > more. > > > > > > > > Un happy new year to all > > > > > > > > arnab > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited > > > mail > > > > > > > storage is just a > > > > > > > > click away. Go to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail > > > > > storage is just a click > > > > > > away. Go to > > > > > > > > https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media > > > and > > > > > the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go > > > to > > > > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a > > click away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.ne > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From logos.theword at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 08:01:12 2008 From: logos.theword at gmail.com (Logos Theatre) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 08:01:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] SWARAANJALI : A TRIBUTE TO KABIR SUMAN In-Reply-To: <77114bc50801070634w15f676e0x73226daf00420308@mail.gmail.com> References: <77114bc50801030332r754f28cfp2e87be4cfba3547c@mail.gmail.com> <77114bc50801070634w15f676e0x73226daf00420308@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33bc2ee60801071831h4095231g3cfe096733940ab0@mail.gmail.com> *IN AID OF CONCERN **INDIA** FOUNDATION AND SABINA YASMIN * *Nagorik * presents *SWARAANJALI : A TRIBUTE TO KABIR SUMAN** * *An Evening of Dramatic Commentary and Music In The Presence Of The Legend Himself * *Date: 11th January (Friday), 2008* *Venue: MLR Convention Hall, Brigade Millenium, JP Nagar 7th Phase, ** Bangalore** - 560078 * *Time: **7:30 PM*** *Donor Passes: Rs.150 and 100* * * *For Prior Booking Contact : Roshita/Sujata (Ph. Number* *25549422/25577740), sromona at gmail.com , pampacb at gmail.com, dwitiya.c at gmail.com * * * *Tickets available from 4th January at: KC Das (**St.Marks Rd.** ), Bangaliyana (Koramangala), Best of **Bengal** (**Cox** **Town**) and Crossword (Residency Rd.) * * * *Best Regards,* *Dwitiya Chatterjee* -- Logos Theatre In the beginning was the word No. 126, 3rd Main Road, Jayamahal Extension, Bangalore 560046 -------------------------------------------------------- If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all. Since no man has aught of what he leaves, what is 't to leave betimes? Let be. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From mail at shivamvij.com Tue Jan 8 15:03:02 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:03:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Top international blogger of India repute gets heart attack; blogging blamed :) Message-ID: <9c06aab30801080133y68eb3a6do9d507d1accbfea60@mail.gmail.com> Some Brand-Name Bloggers Say Stress of Posting Is a Hazard to Their Health By DAN FOST The New York Times, January 7, 2008 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/07/technology/07blogger.html?ex=1357362000&en=5ab6ac4566c0cc92&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss Om Malik's blog, GigaOm, regularly breaks news about the technology industry. Last week, the journalist turned blogger broke a big story about himself. Mr. Malik, 41, blogged that he had suffered a heart attack on Dec. 28. "I was able to walk into the hospital for treatment that night and have been recovering here ever since," Mr. Malik wrote. "With the support of my family and my team, I am on the road to a full recovery. I am going to be O.K." His heart attack — and his blogging about it — raises the issue of what happens when a blogger becomes a name brand. "The trouble with a personal brand is, you're yoked to a machine," said Paul Kedrosky, a friend of Mr. Malik's who runs the Infectious Greed blog. "You feel huge pressure to not just do a lot, but to do a lot with your name on it. You have pressure to not just be the C.E.O., but at the same time to write, and to do it all on a shoestring. Put it all together, and it's a recipe for stress through the roof." Mr. Malik has 12 employees, including a chief operating officer, and editors run some of his blogs, Yet, "It's his name on the door," Mr. Kedrosky said. "People want to know what Om Malik thinks. People want to see posts with Om Malik's byline." Paul Walborsky, the chief operating officer for Mr. Malik's company, Giga Omni Media, played down stress as a factor in Mr. Malik's health. He noted Mr. Malik's incessant smoking of cigars and cigarettes was a more likely cause. In his post last Thursday, Mr. Malik blamed a variety of vices. "Friends and family have purged my apartment of smokes, scotch and all my favorite fatty foods — I am even going to be drinking decaf," wrote Mr. Malik. His online avatar features a drawing of him wearing a press fedora and chomping a cigar, and until he rented an office last year he worked largely out of a Starbucks in San Francisco. The day after his blog, more than 800 people had posted comments on Mr. Malik's site wishing him a speedy recovery and offering lessons from their own health ailments. The sympathy rolled in from fellow journalists, start-up chief executives, venture capitalists, public relations professionals and, naturally, other tech bloggers. Despite joining the exhortations that "we need you," Mr. Kedrosky also warned, "If you come back to blogging before I give you permission, I'll be at your door to take away your MacBook." Mr. Malik, a native of India, has written for tech and business magazines including Forbes, Red Herring and the recently shuttered Business 2.0. GigaOm started as his personal blog, but he left Business 2.0 in 2006 when venture capitalists financed his idea to turn the blog into a business. It now operates several Web sites, including Web Worker Daily, NewTeeVee, Earth2Tech and Found/Read, each of which has its own arsenal of staff and freelance contributors. Michael Arrington, who founded the popular TechCrunch blog, said he did not know to what extent stress had to do with Mr. Malik's attack, "but the stress is crushing in what we do." "I was a corporate lawyer and an entrepreneur, and I know about working all the time. But now, you're always worried a big story is breaking in your e-mail, and if you wait an hour, you'll miss it. Every morning when I wake up, the panic hits and I have to see my e-mail as soon as possible." From 0supplement at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 15:31:47 2008 From: 0supplement at gmail.com (ritwik bhattacharyya) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:31:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?=28no_subject=29?= Message-ID: <14cbbb9a0801080201k1ed1f5b8m10f7f9a46ab9ef01@mail.gmail.com> Archive and the Subject As has already been argued, the passage from Foucault's earlier works, especially 'Archaeology', (which stands for a sort of explanation of what Foucault had been doing in his first two or three works) to what would be called genealogy is important for adressing the question raised on the archive or its status. And this would draw our attention to the problem of subject formation/self-constitution of the subject -relating it to the archive. Much of later Foucault is valuable because of the questions on subjectivity that has been posed there. But for the time being if one concentrates on 'Archaeology of Knowledge' one would find that Foucault is trying his best to contest a certain idea of the subject found in the extant historiography and is attempting to look at the historiographic operation as a whole with this contestation in mind. It would be imprudent for us to pose the questions surrounding archive and its function etc. without at once raising the problem of subjectivity for discussion. Hopefully this shall broaden our horizon a bit. Thanks Ritwik. From zigzackly at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 17:28:33 2008 From: zigzackly at gmail.com (peter griffin) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 17:28:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Opportunities for writers at Kala Ghoda In-Reply-To: <4d145a50801080357s21eea1d4x6e5ce9326d5ed9b@mail.gmail.com> References: <4d145a50801071154m745753d3necd86df9d081f2e1@mail.gmail.com> <4d145a50801071235r80711bbs5e3c94fb1284e4fb@mail.gmail.com> <4d145a50801080357s21eea1d4x6e5ce9326d5ed9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4d145a50801080358l489a4802u9d9e45fd8873f27@mail.gmail.com> In the Kala Ghoda Arts Festival this year, in addition to the usual panels, readings and suchlike, we have a few contests, open exhibition events and workshops for writers and creative people. Do check them out. If you would be so kind, please pass these on friends & mailing lists, and if you blog, please link to us. http://www.caferati.com/kgaf/2008/01/07/open-screen/ (open to anyone - non competitive) http://www.caferati.com/kgaf/2008/01/07/the-open-mike/ (relevant only for writer/performers in Bombay around the Festival dates - non competitive) http://www.caferati.com/kgaf/2007/12/23/short-film-competition/ (for film-makers up to 25 years of age) As more events and contests get finalised, those interested should find updates in teh Kala Ghoda Gazette, filed under Literature & Writing - http://www.caferati.com/kgaf/category/literature-writing/ - or under Contests - http://www.caferati.com/kgaf/category/contests/ ~peter From apnawritings at yahoo.co.in Tue Jan 8 20:19:36 2008 From: apnawritings at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 14:49:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] History and archival freedom of the subject etc. In-Reply-To: <14cbbb9a0801080201k1ed1f5b8m10f7f9a46ab9ef01@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <398229.5281.qm@web8510.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Ritwik,Sadan and Prem, A warm welcome to Ritwik. Welcome to the discussion and "broadening our horizon thus." This is also to introduce Ritwik to Reader list readers: Ritwik is the one of the most brilliant of the young generation scholars from Kolkata and is going to give all of us an intellectual nightmare but presently he has started with a chip. I'll be brief today because as Sadan had predicted in an earlier mail,as an apprentice I'm learning from arguing and I'm really cooking something and warming up. Lets see where it stands. A few rejoinders are in order : Sadan: Archive as a narrative of collection tied to governmentality apart from others and its gradual gravitation or usurpation by history--if this is the way you put it-- I've no problem( though I think the trajectory is different). For that, if remembrance, recollection etc. are substituted in an act of lioberation, I have no problem too, but why would they be called archive which would be a transmutation of the same aesthetic, dear Sadan, not because they ( the re-ones)are preceeding, primordial forms.Speech is before writing but bears the same grammatological structure, but speech is not writing.And secondly,I'm not interested in freeing archive from history, if you are, I have no problem; My orginal question was, are there forms of history which were and still are free from the archival dependence? Prem : That a positvist de -temporality you don't understand, I cannot believe that. All scientific paradigms, formulas are readily a temporal. Recall our school days with science.I'll give you a nearer explanation : remember Benjamin's description of the loss of aura of art objects. Transfer that to the archival objects, you'll get to know what I'm hinting at and this a well known argument. And history ought to thematize time and be temporal--disciplinarily. but archival history with evidence is as stale with its source and origins--as Foucault described it. Ritwik : Welcome again! I have no problems if you start with Archaeology and come to terms slowly through subjectivity and say, interobjectivity. But archive,I'm learning from you though --isn't it more close to the Foucauldian provenance of governmentality than subjectivity as a primary first? The self constitution appears in that episode precisely( this is different from the Greek same self comportment). And again, as an apprentice I may remind you I'm not investigating the 'status of archives' Ritwik, I'm trying to get at some form of history or critical/effective history or genealogy which can do without 'archives' ( used in the disciplinary sense of history, ok?) Let us see where we get down arnab --- ritwik bhattacharyya <0supplement at gmail.com> wrote: > Archive and the Subject > > > > As has already been argued, the passage from > Foucault's earlier works, > especially 'Archaeology', (which stands for a sort > of explanation of what > Foucault had been doing in his first two or three > works) to what would be > called genealogy is important for adressing the > question raised on the > archive or its status. And this would draw our > attention to the problem of > subject formation/self-constitution of the subject > -relating it to the > archive. Much of later Foucault is valuable because > of the questions on > subjectivity that has been posed there. > > > > But for the time being if one concentrates on > 'Archaeology of Knowledge' one > would find that Foucault is trying his best to > contest a certain idea of the > subject found in the extant historiography and is > attempting to look at > the historiographic operation as a whole with this > contestation in mind. It > would be imprudent for us to pose the questions > surrounding archive and its > function etc. without at once raising the problem of > subjectivity for > discussion. > > > > Hopefully this shall broaden our horizon a bit. > > > > Thanks > > > Ritwik. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register From tpbustos at yahoo.com Wed Jan 9 00:53:31 2008 From: tpbustos at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Tania_P=E9rez_Bustos?=) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 11:23:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Researching on People Science Movement Message-ID: <861682.94176.qm@web60011.mail.yahoo.com> My name is Tania Pérez Bustos, a PhD from Colombia. I am doing a comparative research on Popularization of Science and Technology between India and Colombia. An d I am interested on finding information about people who might have participated in the people science movement in India, or that is part of a similar movement in the present, any pointers regarding this will be very helpful. I will be going to India by June 2008 to do research on this, and it would be great to have contacts. Hope anyone can give me a hand. Best wishes Tania Tania Pérez Bustos PhD Student Interintsitutional PhD Program in Education Universidad Pedagógica Nacional - Bogotá, Colombia Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From prem.cnt at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 08:46:36 2008 From: prem.cnt at gmail.com (Prem Chandavarkar) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 08:46:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] History and archival freedom of the subject etc. In-Reply-To: <398229.5281.qm@web8510.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <14cbbb9a0801080201k1ed1f5b8m10f7f9a46ab9ef01@mail.gmail.com> <398229.5281.qm@web8510.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7e230b560801081916t44ca07f1lb0331948b12fea12@mail.gmail.com> On 08/01/2008, ARNAB CHATTERJEE wrote: > > Prem : > That a positvist de -temporality you don't understand, > I cannot believe that. All scientific paradigms, > formulas are readily a temporal. I did not say that I do not understand. One would be blind to claim that it does not exist - clearly it is not only prevalent but is also predominant. I just wondered about two points: 1. Should one continue to justify or validate a positivist de-temporality in history as a discipline? 2. Can one address questions of archive without first addressing questions of history as a discipline? I am traveling over the next one week, with infrequent access to mail, so will drop out of this discussion for a while. Which may be for the best, as I realise I have just been causing digressions, and at no stage have I touched your original question of whether there are forms of history that are free of archival dependence. Regards and all the best, Prem From sadan at sarai.net Wed Jan 9 11:11:43 2008 From: sadan at sarai.net (sadan at sarai.net) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 11:11:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] History and archival freedom of the subject etc. In-Reply-To: <398229.5281.qm@web8510.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <398229.5281.qm@web8510.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3ceb591e0e1e55813a483a52dfcca0d0@sarai.net> Dear Arnab and Ritwik, subjectivity is crucial. And this is why in my very first mail ( joining the discussion) I argued to include Agamben. In my followup mails too, I am trying to move away from Foucault (without loosing him). We certainly need to elaborate on this but I strongly feel that the question of subjectivity is too broad to provide any purchase. We have to address specific aspects of it. Arnab, I will be the last person to free archive from history. what I argued in my last mail is to explore the tension( I talked about political project of liberating archives from disciplinary history and the need to go back to the association between history and archive simultaneously). I am also not clear why issue of governmentality here. Prem, I do not think you digress from the original question (if there was an original question).Arnab would agree that we all are searching our questions and in this search there is no defined path, atleast not to me. Prem I also wanted to know something more grounded than Foucault. If I am wrong you are architect and have been in thsi profession for quite a long time. If you remember, earlier I talked about how archives means different to people and profession outside disciplinary history. I would request you to reflect upon how archives is perceived within the profession of architecture. I wish to understand how the idea of archive is practiced in different professions and by professionals rather than how it is studied in the disciplinary moulds only.(Arnab, kindly do not forget this last word, only). In tihs sense, my current interest in archives is less a project of intelelctual history and more about practices. This is certainly not to say that two are not connected.The way a doctor maintains case-history of his patients, a lawyer maintains records etc. Is there any fundamental difference in their ordering, classification of records? But, difference with what? Am I assuming the practice of archiving in disciplinary history as monolithic? wishes, sadan. On 8:19 pm 01/08/08 ARNAB CHATTERJEE wrote: > Dear Ritwik,Sadan and Prem, > A warm welcome to Ritwik. > Welcome to the discussion and "broadening our horizon > thus." This is also to introduce Ritwik to Reader list > readers: Ritwik is the one of the most brilliant of > the young generation scholars from Kolkata and is > going to give all of us an intellectual nightmare but > presently he has started with a chip. > I'll be brief today because as Sadan had predicted in > an earlier mail,as an apprentice I'm learning from > arguing and I'm really cooking something and warming > up. Lets see where it stands. A few rejoinders are in > order : > > Sadan: > Archive as a narrative of collection tied to > governmentality apart from others and its gradual > gravitation or usurpation by history--if this is the > way you put it-- I've no problem( though I think the > trajectory is different). For that, if remembrance, > recollection etc. are substituted in an act of > lioberation, I have no problem too, but why would they > be called archive which would be a transmutation of > the same aesthetic, dear Sadan, not because they ( the > re-ones)are preceeding, primordial forms.Speech is > before writing but bears the same grammatological > structure, but speech is not writing.And secondly,I'm > not interested in freeing archive from history, if you > are, I have no problem; My orginal question was, are > there forms of history which were and still are free > from the archival dependence? > > Prem : > That a positvist de -temporality you don't understand, > I cannot believe that. All scientific paradigms, > formulas are readily a temporal. Recall our school > days with science.I'll give you a nearer explanation : > remember Benjamin's description of the loss of aura of > art objects. Transfer that to the archival objects, > you'll get to know what I'm hinting at and this a well > known argument. And history ought to thematize time > and be temporal--disciplinarily. but archival history > with evidence is as stale with its source and > origins--as Foucault described it. > > Ritwik : > Welcome again! I have no problems if you start with > Archaeology and come to terms slowly through > subjectivity and say, interobjectivity. But > archive,I'm learning from you though --isn't it more > close to the Foucauldian provenance of governmentality > than subjectivity as a primary first? The self > constitution appears in that episode precisely( this > is different from the Greek same self comportment). > And again, as an apprentice I may remind you I'm not > investigating the 'status of archives' Ritwik, I'm > trying to get at some form of history or > critical/effective history or genealogy which can do > without 'archives' ( used in the disciplinary sense of > history, ok?) > > Let us see where we get down > arnab > > > > > > --- ritwik bhattacharyya <0supplement at gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Archive and the Subject > > > > > > > > As has already been argued, the passage from > > Foucault's earlier works, > > especially 'Archaeology', (which stands for a sort > > of explanation of what > > Foucault had been doing in his first two or three > > works) to what would be > > called genealogy is important for adressing the > > question raised on the > > archive or its status. And this would draw our > > attention to the problem of > > subject formation/self-constitution of the subject > > -relating it to the > > archive. Much of later Foucault is valuable because > > of the questions on > > subjectivity that has been posed there. > > > > > > > > But for the time being if one concentrates on > > 'Archaeology of Knowledge' one > > would find that Foucault is trying his best to > > contest a certain idea of the > > subject found in the extant historiography and is > > attempting to look at > > the historiographic operation as a whole with this > > contestation in mind. It > > would be imprudent for us to pose the questions > > surrounding archive and its > > function etc. without at once raising the problem of > > subjectivity for > > discussion. > > > > > > > > Hopefully this shall broaden our horizon a bit. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Ritwik. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > > subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a > click away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register From tpbustos at yahoo.com Tue Jan 8 22:51:22 2008 From: tpbustos at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Tania_P=E9rez_Bustos?=) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 09:21:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Looking for Info on People Science Movement Message-ID: <922249.31685.qm@web60022.mail.yahoo.com> My name is Tania Pérez Bustos, a PhD from Colombia. I am doing a comparative research on Popularization of Science and Technology between India and Colombia. An d I am interested on finding information about people who might have participated in the people science movement in India, or that is part of a similar movement in the present, any pointers regarding this will be very helpful. I will be going to India by June 2008 to do research on this, and it would be great to have contacts. Hope anyone can give me a hand Tania Tania Pérez Bustos PhD Student Interintsitutional PhD Program in Education Universidad Pedagógica Nacional - Bogotá, Colombia ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 12:33:11 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 12:33:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Top international blogger of India repute gets heart attack; blogging blamed :) In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30801080133y68eb3a6do9d507d1accbfea60@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30801080133y68eb3a6do9d507d1accbfea60@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801082303m78b2a074i5684fd1db4a0d2f8@mail.gmail.com> Shouldnt the Subject have been "Top Indian Blogger of International repute " ...........??? On 1/8/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Some Brand-Name Bloggers Say Stress of Posting Is a Hazard to Their > Health > > > By DAN FOST > The New York Times, January 7, 2008 > > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/07/technology/07blogger.html?ex=1357362000&en=5ab6ac4566c0cc92&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss > > > Om Malik's blog, GigaOm, regularly breaks news about the technology > industry. Last week, the journalist turned blogger broke a big story > about himself. Mr. Malik, 41, blogged that he had suffered a heart > attack on Dec. 28. > > "I was able to walk into the hospital for treatment that night and > have been recovering here ever since," Mr. Malik wrote. "With the > support of my family and my team, I am on the road to a full recovery. > I am going to be O.K." > > His heart attack — and his blogging about it — raises the issue of > what happens when a blogger becomes a name brand. > > "The trouble with a personal brand is, you're yoked to a machine," > said Paul Kedrosky, a friend of Mr. Malik's who runs the Infectious > Greed blog. "You feel huge pressure to not just do a lot, but to do a > lot with your name on it. You have pressure to not just be the C.E.O., > but at the same time to write, and to do it all on a shoestring. Put > it all together, and it's a recipe for stress through the roof." > > Mr. Malik has 12 employees, including a chief operating officer, and > editors run some of his blogs, Yet, "It's his name on the door," Mr. > Kedrosky said. "People want to know what Om Malik thinks. People want > to see posts with Om Malik's byline." > > Paul Walborsky, the chief operating officer for Mr. Malik's company, > Giga Omni Media, played down stress as a factor in Mr. Malik's health. > He noted Mr. Malik's incessant smoking of cigars and cigarettes was a > more likely cause. > > In his post last Thursday, Mr. Malik blamed a variety of vices. > "Friends and family have purged my apartment of smokes, scotch and all > my favorite fatty foods — I am even going to be drinking decaf," wrote > Mr. Malik. His online avatar features a drawing of him wearing a press > fedora and chomping a cigar, and until he rented an office last year > he worked largely out of a Starbucks in San Francisco. > > The day after his blog, more than 800 people had posted comments on > Mr. Malik's site wishing him a speedy recovery and offering lessons > from their own health ailments. The sympathy rolled in from fellow > journalists, start-up chief executives, venture capitalists, public > relations professionals and, naturally, other tech bloggers. > > Despite joining the exhortations that "we need you," Mr. Kedrosky also > warned, "If you come back to blogging before I give you permission, > I'll be at your door to take away your MacBook." > > Mr. Malik, a native of India, has written for tech and business > magazines including Forbes, Red Herring and the recently shuttered > Business 2.0. GigaOm started as his personal blog, but he left > Business 2.0 in 2006 when venture capitalists financed his idea to > turn the blog into a business. > > It now operates several Web sites, including Web Worker Daily, > NewTeeVee, Earth2Tech and Found/Read, each of which has its own > arsenal of staff and freelance contributors. > > Michael Arrington, who founded the popular TechCrunch blog, said he > did not know to what extent stress had to do with Mr. Malik's attack, > "but the stress is crushing in what we do." > > "I was a corporate lawyer and an entrepreneur, and I know about > working all the time. But now, you're always worried a big story is > breaking in your e-mail, and if you wait an hour, you'll miss it. > Every morning when I wake up, the panic hits and I have to see my > e-mail as soon as possible." > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Wed Jan 9 12:48:35 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 12:48:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Top international blogger of India repute gets heart attack; blogging blamed :) In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70801082303m78b2a074i5684fd1db4a0d2f8@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30801080133y68eb3a6do9d507d1accbfea60@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70801082303m78b2a074i5684fd1db4a0d2f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30801082318h322f337do747257a970cdfc58@mail.gmail.com> sorry, yes. see what blogging does to you! On 1/9/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > Shouldnt the Subject have been "Top Indian Blogger of International repute " > ...........??? > > > On 1/8/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > > > Some Brand-Name Bloggers Say Stress of Posting Is a Hazard to Their > > Health > > > > > > By DAN FOST > > The New York Times, January 7, 2008 > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/07/technology/07blogger.html?ex=1357362000&en=5ab6ac4566c0cc92&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss > > > > > > Om Malik's blog, GigaOm, regularly breaks news about the technology > > industry. Last week, the journalist turned blogger broke a big story > > about himself. Mr. Malik, 41, blogged that he had suffered a heart > > attack on Dec. 28. > > > > "I was able to walk into the hospital for treatment that night and > > have been recovering here ever since," Mr. Malik wrote. "With the > > support of my family and my team, I am on the road to a full recovery. > > I am going to be O.K." > > > > His heart attack — and his blogging about it — raises the issue of > > what happens when a blogger becomes a name brand. > > > > "The trouble with a personal brand is, you're yoked to a machine," > > said Paul Kedrosky, a friend of Mr. Malik's who runs the Infectious > > Greed blog. "You feel huge pressure to not just do a lot, but to do a > > lot with your name on it. You have pressure to not just be the C.E.O ., > > but at the same time to write, and to do it all on a shoestring. Put > > it all together, and it's a recipe for stress through the roof." > > > > Mr. Malik has 12 employees, including a chief operating officer, and > > editors run some of his blogs, Yet, "It's his name on the door," Mr. > > Kedrosky said. "People want to know what Om Malik thinks. People want > > to see posts with Om Malik's byline." > > > > Paul Walborsky, the chief operating officer for Mr. Malik's company, > > Giga Omni Media, played down stress as a factor in Mr. Malik's health. > > He noted Mr. Malik's incessant smoking of cigars and cigarettes was a > > more likely cause. > > > > In his post last Thursday, Mr. Malik blamed a variety of vices. > > "Friends and family have purged my apartment of smokes, scotch and all > > my favorite fatty foods — I am even going to be drinking decaf," wrote > > Mr. Malik. His online avatar features a drawing of him wearing a press > > fedora and chomping a cigar, and until he rented an office last year > > he worked largely out of a Starbucks in San Francisco. > > > > The day after his blog, more than 800 people had posted comments on > > Mr. Malik's site wishing him a speedy recovery and offering lessons > > from their own health ailments. The sympathy rolled in from fellow > > journalists, start-up chief executives, venture capitalists, public > > relations professionals and, naturally, other tech bloggers. > > > > Despite joining the exhortations that "we need you," Mr. Kedrosky also > > warned, "If you come back to blogging before I give you permission, > > I'll be at your door to take away your MacBook." > > > > Mr. Malik, a native of India, has written for tech and business > > magazines including Forbes, Red Herring and the recently shuttered > > Business 2.0. GigaOm started as his personal blog, but he left > > Business 2.0 in 2006 when venture capitalists financed his idea to > > turn the blog into a business. > > > > It now operates several Web sites, including Web Worker Daily, > > NewTeeVee, Earth2Tech and Found/Read, each of which has its own > > arsenal of staff and freelance contributors. > > > > Michael Arrington, who founded the popular TechCrunch blog, said he > > did not know to what extent stress had to do with Mr. Malik's attack, > > "but the stress is crushing in what we do." > > > > "I was a corporate lawyer and an entrepreneur, and I know about > > working all the time. But now, you're always worried a big story is > > breaking in your e-mail, and if you wait an hour, you'll miss it. > > Every morning when I wake up, the panic hits and I have to see my > > e-mail as soon as possible." > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 14:11:11 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 14:11:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Top international blogger of India repute gets heart attack; blogging blamed :) In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30801082318h322f337do747257a970cdfc58@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30801080133y68eb3a6do9d507d1accbfea60@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70801082303m78b2a074i5684fd1db4a0d2f8@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30801082318h322f337do747257a970cdfc58@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801090041s61ca6fdcq1b8163ade0bb6b23@mail.gmail.com> Shouldn't you be more worried about what it has done to you ? On 1/9/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > sorry, yes. see what blogging does to you! > > On 1/9/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Shouldnt the Subject have been "Top Indian Blogger of International > repute " > > ...........??? > > > > > > On 1/8/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > > > > > Some Brand-Name Bloggers Say Stress of Posting Is a Hazard to Their > > > Health > > > > > > > > > By DAN FOST > > > The New York Times, January 7, 2008 > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/07/technology/07blogger.html?ex=1357362000&en=5ab6ac4566c0cc92&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss > > > > > > > > > Om Malik's blog, GigaOm, regularly breaks news about the technology > > > industry. Last week, the journalist turned blogger broke a big story > > > about himself. Mr. Malik, 41, blogged that he had suffered a heart > > > attack on Dec. 28. > > > > > > "I was able to walk into the hospital for treatment that night and > > > have been recovering here ever since," Mr. Malik wrote. "With the > > > support of my family and my team, I am on the road to a full recovery. > > > I am going to be O.K." > > > > > > His heart attack — and his blogging about it — raises the issue of > > > what happens when a blogger becomes a name brand. > > > > > > "The trouble with a personal brand is, you're yoked to a machine," > > > said Paul Kedrosky, a friend of Mr. Malik's who runs the Infectious > > > Greed blog. "You feel huge pressure to not just do a lot, but to do a > > > lot with your name on it. You have pressure to not just be the C.E.O., > > > but at the same time to write, and to do it all on a shoestring. Put > > > it all together, and it's a recipe for stress through the roof." > > > > > > Mr. Malik has 12 employees, including a chief operating officer, and > > > editors run some of his blogs, Yet, "It's his name on the door," Mr. > > > Kedrosky said. "People want to know what Om Malik thinks. People want > > > to see posts with Om Malik's byline." > > > > > > Paul Walborsky, the chief operating officer for Mr. Malik's company, > > > Giga Omni Media, played down stress as a factor in Mr. Malik's health. > > > He noted Mr. Malik's incessant smoking of cigars and cigarettes was a > > > more likely cause. > > > > > > In his post last Thursday, Mr. Malik blamed a variety of vices. > > > "Friends and family have purged my apartment of smokes, scotch and all > > > my favorite fatty foods — I am even going to be drinking decaf," wrote > > > Mr. Malik. His online avatar features a drawing of him wearing a press > > > fedora and chomping a cigar, and until he rented an office last year > > > he worked largely out of a Starbucks in San Francisco. > > > > > > The day after his blog, more than 800 people had posted comments on > > > Mr. Malik's site wishing him a speedy recovery and offering lessons > > > from their own health ailments. The sympathy rolled in from fellow > > > journalists, start-up chief executives, venture capitalists, public > > > relations professionals and, naturally, other tech bloggers. > > > > > > Despite joining the exhortations that "we need you," Mr. Kedrosky also > > > warned, "If you come back to blogging before I give you permission, > > > I'll be at your door to take away your MacBook." > > > > > > Mr. Malik, a native of India, has written for tech and business > > > magazines including Forbes, Red Herring and the recently shuttered > > > Business 2.0. GigaOm started as his personal blog, but he left > > > Business 2.0 in 2006 when venture capitalists financed his idea to > > > turn the blog into a business. > > > > > > It now operates several Web sites, including Web Worker Daily, > > > NewTeeVee, Earth2Tech and Found/Read, each of which has its own > > > arsenal of staff and freelance contributors. > > > > > > Michael Arrington, who founded the popular TechCrunch blog, said he > > > did not know to what extent stress had to do with Mr. Malik's attack, > > > "but the stress is crushing in what we do." > > > > > > "I was a corporate lawyer and an entrepreneur, and I know about > > > working all the time. But now, you're always worried a big story is > > > breaking in your e-mail, and if you wait an hour, you'll miss it. > > > Every morning when I wake up, the panic hits and I have to see my > > > e-mail as soon as possible." > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > From mail at shivamvij.com Wed Jan 9 15:05:47 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 15:05:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Top international blogger of India repute gets heart attack; blogging blamed :) In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70801090041s61ca6fdcq1b8163ade0bb6b23@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30801080133y68eb3a6do9d507d1accbfea60@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70801082303m78b2a074i5684fd1db4a0d2f8@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30801082318h322f337do747257a970cdfc58@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70801090041s61ca6fdcq1b8163ade0bb6b23@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30801090135w5c89e286t2d5c05f393b5284a@mail.gmail.com> not a heart attack yet! On 1/9/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > Shouldn't you be more worried about what it has done to you ? > > > > > > On 1/9/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > sorry, yes. see what blogging does to you! > > > > On 1/9/08, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Shouldnt the Subject have been "Top Indian Blogger of International > repute " > > > ...........??? > > > > > > > > > On 1/8/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् < mail at shivamvij.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > Some Brand-Name Bloggers Say Stress of Posting Is a Hazard to Their > > > > Health > > > > > > > > > > > > By DAN FOST > > > > The New York Times, January 7, 2008 > > > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/07/technology/07blogger.html?ex=1357362000&en=5ab6ac4566c0cc92&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Malik's blog, GigaOm, regularly breaks news about the technology > > > > industry. Last week, the journalist turned blogger broke a big story > > > > about himself. Mr. Malik, 41, blogged that he had suffered a heart > > > > attack on Dec. 28. > > > > > > > > "I was able to walk into the hospital for treatment that night and > > > > have been recovering here ever since," Mr. Malik wrote. "With the > > > > support of my family and my team, I am on the road to a full recovery. > > > > I am going to be O.K." > > > > > > > > His heart attack — and his blogging about it — raises the issue of > > > > what happens when a blogger becomes a name brand. > > > > > > > > "The trouble with a personal brand is, you're yoked to a machine," > > > > said Paul Kedrosky, a friend of Mr. Malik's who runs the Infectious > > > > Greed blog. "You feel huge pressure to not just do a lot, but to do a > > > > lot with your name on it. You have pressure to not just be the C.E.O > ., > > > > but at the same time to write, and to do it all on a shoestring. Put > > > > it all together, and it's a recipe for stress through the roof." > > > > > > > > Mr. Malik has 12 employees, including a chief operating officer, and > > > > editors run some of his blogs, Yet, "It's his name on the door," Mr. > > > > Kedrosky said. "People want to know what Om Malik thinks. People want > > > > to see posts with Om Malik's byline." > > > > > > > > Paul Walborsky, the chief operating officer for Mr. Malik's company, > > > > Giga Omni Media, played down stress as a factor in Mr. Malik's health. > > > > He noted Mr. Malik's incessant smoking of cigars and cigarettes was a > > > > more likely cause. > > > > > > > > In his post last Thursday, Mr. Malik blamed a variety of vices. > > > > "Friends and family have purged my apartment of smokes, scotch and all > > > > my favorite fatty foods — I am even going to be drinking decaf," wrote > > > > Mr. Malik. His online avatar features a drawing of him wearing a press > > > > fedora and chomping a cigar, and until he rented an office last year > > > > he worked largely out of a Starbucks in San Francisco. > > > > > > > > The day after his blog, more than 800 people had posted comments on > > > > Mr. Malik's site wishing him a speedy recovery and offering lessons > > > > from their own health ailments. The sympathy rolled in from fellow > > > > journalists, start-up chief executives, venture capitalists, public > > > > relations professionals and, naturally, other tech bloggers. > > > > > > > > Despite joining the exhortations that "we need you," Mr. Kedrosky also > > > > warned, "If you come back to blogging before I give you permission, > > > > I'll be at your door to take away your MacBook." > > > > > > > > Mr. Malik, a native of India, has written for tech and business > > > > magazines including Forbes, Red Herring and the recently shuttered > > > > Business 2.0. GigaOm started as his personal blog, but he left > > > > Business 2.0 in 2006 when venture capitalists financed his idea to > > > > turn the blog into a business. > > > > > > > > It now operates several Web sites, including Web Worker Daily, > > > > NewTeeVee, Earth2Tech and Found/Read, each of which has its own > > > > arsenal of staff and freelance contributors. > > > > > > > > Michael Arrington, who founded the popular TechCrunch blog, said he > > > > did not know to what extent stress had to do with Mr. Malik's attack, > > > > "but the stress is crushing in what we do." > > > > > > > > "I was a corporate lawyer and an entrepreneur, and I know about > > > > working all the time. But now, you're always worried a big story is > > > > breaking in your e-mail, and if you wait an hour, you'll miss it. > > > > Every morning when I wake up, the panic hits and I have to see my > > > > e-mail as soon as possible." > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > From sananth99 at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 13:56:34 2008 From: sananth99 at gmail.com (Ananth S) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:56:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Chinese Factories, Lost Fingers and Low Pay Message-ID: <10C6E12C-312E-4E32-AD58-52D64A5DD490@gmail.com> In Chinese Factories, Lost Fingers and Low Pay By DAVID BARBOZA Published: January 5, 2008 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/05/business/worldbusiness/ 05sweatshop.html ? GUANGZHOU, China — Nearly a decade after some of the most powerful companies in the world — often under considerable criticism and consumer pressure — began an effort to eliminate sweatshop labor conditions in Asia, worker abuse is still commonplace in many of the Chinese factories that supply Western companies, according to labor rights groups. The groups say some Chinese companies routinely shortchange their employees on wages, withhold health benefits and expose their workers to dangerous machinery and harmful chemicals, like lead, cadmium and mercury. "If these things are so dangerous for the consumer, then how about the workers?" said Anita Chan, a labor rights advocate who teaches at the Australian National University. "We may be dealing with these things for a short time, but they deal with them every day." And so while American and European consumers worry about exposing their children to Chinese-made toys coated in lead, Chinese workers, often as young as 16, face far more serious hazards. Here in the Pearl River Delta region near Hong Kong, for example, factory workers lose or break about 40,000 fingers on the job every year, according to a study published a few years ago by the Shanghai Academy of Social Sciences. Pushing to keep big corporations honest, labor groups regularly smuggle photographs, videos, pay stubs, shipping records and other evidence out of factories that they say violate local law and international worker standards. In 2007, factories that supplied more than a dozen corporations, including Wal-Mart, Disney and Dell, were accused of unfair labor practices, including using child labor, forcing employees to work 16-hour days on fast-moving assembly lines, and paying workers less than minimum wage. (Minimum wage in this part of China is about 55 cents an hour.) In recent weeks, a flood of reports detailing labor abuse have been released, at a time when China is still coping with last year's wave of product safety recalls of goods made in China, and as it tries to change workplace rules with a new labor law that took effect on Jan. 1. No company has come under as harsh a spotlight as Wal-Mart, the world's biggest retailer, which sourced about $9 billion in goods from China in 2006, everything from hammers and toys to high- definition televisions. In December, two nongovernmental organizations, or NGOs, documented what they said were abuse and labor violations at 15 factories that produce or supply goods for Wal-Mart — including the use of child labor at Huanya Gifts, a factory here in Guangzhou that makes Christmas tree ornaments. Wal-Mart officials say they are investigating the allegations, which were in a report issued three weeks ago by the National Labor Committee, a New York-based NGO. Guangzhou labor bureau officials said they recently fined Huanya for wage violations, but also said they found no evidence of child labor. A spokesman for Huanya, which employs 8,000 workers, denied that the company broke any labor laws. But two workers interviewed outside Huanya's huge complex in late December said that they were forced to work long hours to meet production quotas in harsh conditions. "I work on the plastic molding machine from 6 in the morning to 6 at night," said Xu Wenquan, a tiny, baby-faced 16-year-old whose hands were covered with blisters. Asked what had happened to his hands, he replied, the machines are "quite hot, so I've burned my hands." His brother, Xu Wenjie, 18, said the two young men left their small village in impoverished Guizhou Province four months ago and traveled more than 500 miles to find work at Huanya. The brothers said they worked 12 hours a day, six days a week, for $120 to $200 a month, far less than they are required to be paid by law. When government inspectors visit the factory, the young brothers are given the day off, they said. A former Huanya employee who was reached by telephone gave a similar account of working conditions, saying many workers suffered from skin rashes after working with gold powders and that others were forced to sign papers "volunteering" to work overtime. "It's quite noisy, and you stand up all day, 12 hours, and there's no air-conditioning," he said. "We get paid by the piece we make but they never told us how much. Sometimes I got $110, sometimes I got $150 a month." In its 58-page report, the National Labor Committee scolded Wal-Mart for not doing more to protect workers. The group charged that last July, Huanya recruited about 500 16-year-old high school students to work seven days a week, often 15 hours a day, during peak production months for holiday merchandise. Several students interviewed at the Guangzhou Technical School, less than two miles from Huanya, confirmed that classmates ages 16 to 18 had spent the summer working at the factory. Some high school students later went on strike to protest the harsh conditions, the report said. The students also told labor officials that at least seven children, as young as 12 years old, were working in the factory. "At Wal-Mart, Christmas ornaments are cheap, and so are the lives of the young workers in China who make them," the National Labor Committee report said. Jonathan Dong, a Wal-Mart spokesman in Beijing, said the company would soon release details of its own investigation into working conditions at Huanya. Labor rights groups have also criticized Disney and Dell. Officials of Disney and Dell declined to comment on specific allegations, but both companies say they carefully monitor factories in China and take action when they find problems or unfair labor practices. "The Walt Disney Company and its affiliates take claims of unfair labor practices very seriously and investigates any such allegations thoroughly," the company said in a statement. "We have a strong commitment to the safety and well-being of workers, and fair and just labor standards." Many multinationals were harshly criticized in the 1990s for using suppliers that maintained sweatshop conditions. Iconic brand names, like Nike, Mattel and Gap, responded by forming corporate social responsibility operations and working with contractors to create a system of factory audits and inspections. Those changes have won praise in some quarters for improving worker conditions. But despite spending millions of dollars and hiring thousands of auditors, some companies acknowledge that many of the programs are flawed. "The factories have improved immeasurably over the past few years," says Alan Hassenfeld, chairman of the toy maker Hasbro and co- chairman of Care, the ethical-manufacturing program of the International Council of Toy Industries. "But let me be honest: there are some bad factories. We have bribery and corruption occurring but we are doing our best." Some factories are warned about audits beforehand and some factory owners or managers bribe auditors. Inexperienced inspectors may also be a problem. Some major Western auditing firms working in China even hire college students from the United States to work during the summer as inspectors, an indication that they are not willing to invest in more expensive or sophisticated auditing programs, critics say. Chinese suppliers regularly outsource to other suppliers, who may in turn outsource to yet another operation, creating a supply chain that is hard to follow — let alone inspect. "The convoluted supply chain is probably one of the most underestimated and unrecognized risks in China," says Dane Chamorro, general manager for Greater China at Control Risks, a risk-consulting firm. "You really have to have experienced people on the ground who know what they're doing and know the language." Many labor experts say part of the problem is cost: Western companies are constantly pressing their Chinese suppliers for lower prices while also insisting that factory owners spend more to upgrade operations, treat workers properly and improve product quality. At the same time, rising food, energy and raw material costs in China — as well as a shortage of labor in the biggest southern manufacturing zones — are hampering factory owners' ability to make a profit. The situation may get worse before it improves. The labor law that took effect on Jan. 1 makes it more difficult to dismiss workers and creates a whole new set of laws that experts say will almost certainly increase labor costs. Yet it may become more difficult for human rights groups to investigate abuses. Concerned about the growing array of threats to profitability, as well as embarrassing exposés, factories are heightening security, harassing labor rights groups and calling the police when journalists show up at their gates. At the center of the problem is a labor system that relies on young migrant workers, who often leave small rural villages for two- or three-year stints at factories, where they hope to earn enough to return home to start families. As long as life in the cities promises more money than in rural areas, they will brave the harsh conditions in factories in this and other Chinese cities. And as long as China outlaws independent unions and proves unable to enforce its own labor rules, there is little hope for change. "This is a problem that has been difficult to solve," Liu Kaiming, the director of the Institute on Contemporary Observation, which aids migrant workers in nearby Shenzhen, said of sweatshop labor. "China has too many factories. The workers' bargaining position is weak and the government's regulation is slack." There is little that any Western company can do about those issues, no matter how seriously they take corporate social responsibility — other than leaving China. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 16:43:20 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 16:43:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Top international blogger of India repute gets heart attack; blogging blamed :) In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30801090135w5c89e286t2d5c05f393b5284a@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30801080133y68eb3a6do9d507d1accbfea60@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70801082303m78b2a074i5684fd1db4a0d2f8@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30801082318h322f337do747257a970cdfc58@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70801090041s61ca6fdcq1b8163ade0bb6b23@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30801090135w5c89e286t2d5c05f393b5284a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801090313t5583eb19u44f4eeabdeb2f3cf@mail.gmail.com> Dear Friend , With my wishes ...you would always be safe from that . God Bless Pawan On 1/9/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > not a heart attack yet! > > On 1/9/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Shouldn't you be more worried about what it has done to you ? > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/9/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > > sorry, yes. see what blogging does to you! > > > > > > On 1/9/08, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Shouldnt the Subject have been "Top Indian Blogger of International > > repute " > > > > ...........??? > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/8/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् < mail at shivamvij.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Some Brand-Name Bloggers Say Stress of Posting Is a Hazard to > Their > > > > > Health > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By DAN FOST > > > > > The New York Times, January 7, 2008 > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/07/technology/07blogger.html?ex=1357362000&en=5ab6ac4566c0cc92&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Malik's blog, GigaOm, regularly breaks news about the > technology > > > > > industry. Last week, the journalist turned blogger broke a big > story > > > > > about himself. Mr. Malik, 41, blogged that he had suffered a heart > > > > > attack on Dec. 28. > > > > > > > > > > "I was able to walk into the hospital for treatment that night and > > > > > have been recovering here ever since," Mr. Malik wrote. "With the > > > > > support of my family and my team, I am on the road to a full > recovery. > > > > > I am going to be O.K." > > > > > > > > > > His heart attack — and his blogging about it — raises the issue of > > > > > what happens when a blogger becomes a name brand. > > > > > > > > > > "The trouble with a personal brand is, you're yoked to a machine," > > > > > said Paul Kedrosky, a friend of Mr. Malik's who runs the > Infectious > > > > > Greed blog. "You feel huge pressure to not just do a lot, but to > do a > > > > > lot with your name on it. You have pressure to not just be the > C.E.O > > ., > > > > > but at the same time to write, and to do it all on a shoestring. > Put > > > > > it all together, and it's a recipe for stress through the roof." > > > > > > > > > > Mr. Malik has 12 employees, including a chief operating officer, > and > > > > > editors run some of his blogs, Yet, "It's his name on the door," > Mr. > > > > > Kedrosky said. "People want to know what Om Malik thinks. People > want > > > > > to see posts with Om Malik's byline." > > > > > > > > > > Paul Walborsky, the chief operating officer for Mr. Malik's > company, > > > > > Giga Omni Media, played down stress as a factor in Mr. Malik's > health. > > > > > He noted Mr. Malik's incessant smoking of cigars and cigarettes > was a > > > > > more likely cause. > > > > > > > > > > In his post last Thursday, Mr. Malik blamed a variety of vices. > > > > > "Friends and family have purged my apartment of smokes, scotch and > all > > > > > my favorite fatty foods — I am even going to be drinking decaf," > wrote > > > > > Mr. Malik. His online avatar features a drawing of him wearing a > press > > > > > fedora and chomping a cigar, and until he rented an office last > year > > > > > he worked largely out of a Starbucks in San Francisco. > > > > > > > > > > The day after his blog, more than 800 people had posted comments > on > > > > > Mr. Malik's site wishing him a speedy recovery and offering > lessons > > > > > from their own health ailments. The sympathy rolled in from fellow > > > > > journalists, start-up chief executives, venture capitalists, > public > > > > > relations professionals and, naturally, other tech bloggers. > > > > > > > > > > Despite joining the exhortations that "we need you," Mr. Kedrosky > also > > > > > warned, "If you come back to blogging before I give you > permission, > > > > > I'll be at your door to take away your MacBook." > > > > > > > > > > Mr. Malik, a native of India, has written for tech and business > > > > > magazines including Forbes, Red Herring and the recently shuttered > > > > > Business 2.0. GigaOm started as his personal blog, but he left > > > > > Business 2.0 in 2006 when venture capitalists financed his idea to > > > > > turn the blog into a business. > > > > > > > > > > It now operates several Web sites, including Web Worker Daily, > > > > > NewTeeVee, Earth2Tech and Found/Read, each of which has its own > > > > > arsenal of staff and freelance contributors. > > > > > > > > > > Michael Arrington, who founded the popular TechCrunch blog, said > he > > > > > did not know to what extent stress had to do with Mr. Malik's > attack, > > > > > "but the stress is crushing in what we do." > > > > > > > > > > "I was a corporate lawyer and an entrepreneur, and I know about > > > > > working all the time. But now, you're always worried a big story > is > > > > > breaking in your e-mail, and if you wait an hour, you'll miss it. > > > > > Every morning when I wake up, the panic hits and I have to see my > > > > > e-mail as soon as possible." > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From apnawritings at yahoo.co.in Wed Jan 9 17:40:11 2008 From: apnawritings at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 12:10:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Why Positivist history lasts a long time In-Reply-To: <7e230b560801081916t44ca07f1lb0331948b12fea12@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <523683.85734.qm@web8504.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Prem, Firstly, you cannot abandon the discussion at this juncture when it is getting more and more interesting and apparently a bit north-south but be sure we'll pull this up well and learn from each other; we are all students Prem. Now, Sadan is getting a bit impatient and at times angry largely because this is his subject and many of the positions which are being reviewed here are his positions and he will desperately try to defend them; infact he has all the right to do so. But the force of good reason will prevail and we shall all remain best of friends. Let me tell you, Sadan is my consultant for Bhojpuri music and despite a disagreement here--if there is one, we shall remain members of this 'warm fraternity of useless erudition'. So don't go away, because you'll rememeber Sadan making excuses for a very important work and then he came back when he had anticipated his essential and important engagement. So you shall do. I love your questions, infact they have a cutting edge which compells people to answer. I assume in your hey days, all your love letters were answered. But to remind you and all, this question rose in conversation with Mahmood Faruqui and he is still to come. Now your questions, 1. Now,how this poistivist historiography carries on is a big question and a very bitter question. I've seen people in Kolkata as well in Delhi or Maharashtra, talking about Benjamin or Hayden White and then while they write they do not reflect on the way they are writing. Everything is forgotten. And this thing goes on and on. Infact this is how a Partha Chatterjee or a Dipesh Chakraborty stand out, or say, Gautam Bhadra working with vernacular historiography attracts me. History as a form of writing if it is not relexive is just incorrect--after the linguistic turn and so much. And I didn't answer your Hayden White excerpt which might be relevant here, here it is: if history has to go back to its literary sources, the case for a public archive becomes more dim. Or otherwise people going for an internal, semiotic historical reading of a text will be told to go to the state archives. People practising semiotic history will be told to unearth newspapers. 2. The way you have quoted the original question, I fail to see why it can't be solved even in view of your second question. Thank You! Shall wait for your further objections. love arnab --- Prem Chandavarkar wrote: > On 08/01/2008, ARNAB CHATTERJEE > wrote: > > > > Prem : > > That a positvist de -temporality you don't > understand, > > I cannot believe that. All scientific paradigms, > > formulas are readily a temporal. > > > I did not say that I do not understand. One would be > blind to claim that it > does not exist - clearly it is not only prevalent > but is also predominant. > I just wondered about two points: > > 1. Should one continue to justify or validate a > positivist > de-temporality in history as a discipline? > 2. Can one address questions of archive without > first addressing > questions of history as a discipline? > > I am traveling over the next one week, with > infrequent access to mail, so > will drop out of this discussion for a while. Which > may be for the best, as > I realise I have just been causing digressions, and > at no stage have I > touched your original question of whether there are > forms of history that > are free of archival dependence. > Regards and all the best, > Prem > Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Wed Jan 9 17:53:16 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 04:23:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-III In-Reply-To: <13df7c120712251939nac0317ao2a65316971ebcdb4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <126229.40713.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi Rashneek, This is really Great work and nice explanation on myths. Not only the terms turk produces the meaning (outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims in this case) but also the term mleccha will also produce the same meaning(outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims in this case) widely used to refer in times. Regards, Dhatri. rashneek kher wrote: PART-III I am devoting this part to Harsha alone.This is because he has been pulled out of the historical wilderness time and again by the Marxist historians.This one example is used as a counterweight the huge historical evidence that we have to support religious persecution and Iconoclasm by hundreds of muslim rulers all over south Asia and not just Kashmir alone. It seems as if just because Harsha did what Muslim rulers followed as a matter of policy and an instrument of abuse we are to condone their acts. Harsha"The Iconoclast" Let us first see how Shudda looks at Kalhana especially in the context of the above discussion. My learned friend writes *"We know that Kalhana describes Sankaravarman as a destroyer of sixty four temples. But the motives for this destruction, which Kalhana attributes to greed alone, can be read differently"* This leaves me thoroughly confused for one hand Shudda questions Kalhana's un-biased view on History as you will read above he raises a question mark and says"*can be read differently"* while at the beginning of second series of his essay he says *Kalhana's importance for the understanding of early medieval history in **South Asia** is unquestionable. Especially because his writing embodies a singular and significant model for historiographic investigation and accounting, rare in the pre - Islamicate cultures of **South Asia**. He describes and lists the events that mark the reigns of rulers without favour or prejudice. He makes an effort at consistence and attempts to maintains a rigourous standard as far as chronology and the duration of reigns is concerned. His descriptions of everyday life, of the seasons, of customs, religious beliefs, rituals, war and political intrigue - all furnish valuable details about what life would have been like in **Kashmir**. He explicitly marks a distinction between the mythic and the historic phases of his narrative. He is especially important because reading Kalhana, one finds it impossible to state that iconoclasm and secterian strife was the special preserve of Muslim rulers in **South Asia**, as Hindutva apologists are wont to do.* Please read the last line carefully.I post it again for the benefit of the readers *He is especially important because reading Kalhana, one finds it impossible to state that iconoclasm and secterian strife was the special preserve of Muslim rulers in **South Asia**, as Hindutva apologists are wont to do.* * * *Now let Shudda show me a line wherein I have said that Iconoclasm and Secterian Strife was the preserve of Muslim Rulers alone* To make my point of view clear on this I am quoting myself from an article I wrote long back for Greater Kashmir(a separatist leaning newspaper published from Srinagar).This shall prove beyond doubt what my take is on the kings of Kashmir,irrespective of their religious leanings.. * * *"Only when one looks back into the pages of history one realizes how unfortunate have we been. Except for three kings ie Lalitaditya Muktapida, Avantivarman and Sultan Zainulabidin in whose regimes we saw development and prosperity in Kashmir,we have mostly been ruled by cruel despots.Till the advent of Islam we have been ruled by kings who were more or less indigenous rulers except for Asoka and rulers of Kushana dynasty. With the advent of Islam, we had kings of foreign origin ruling us. However the uniting thread among all these kings was their cruelty and in dealing with their subjects." * * * *Romila Thapar and Harbans Mukhiya-Lies and Un-substantiated Claims* Let us examine what Romila Thapar,A L Basham and Mukhiya have to say about iconoclasm by Hindu kings in Kashmir in their various articles.Although I could not put my hands on all the articles which Shudda had referred to yet I did read enough to get a hang of what Romila Thapar(whose knowledge and erudition of Sanskrit has always been a question mark) and Mukhiya whose Marxist leftist credentials have never been under question.So we kind of know which side of their bread is buttered.We will try and understand what Basham says about "Harsha the Iconoclast".I am leaving Mukhiya alone but if need be ,we will discuss his understanding of Harsha as well.I will also like the forum to read through this piece of extremely unbiased work by an American Student. * * *Puzzling Dimensions and Theoretical Knots in my **Graduate** **School** Research By Yvette Claire Rosser, M.A., Ph.D. * * * *http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/s_es/s_es_rosse_puzzle_frameset.htm* *A few days later I met with Professor Romila Thapar and told her Prof. Mukhia had told me that she could provide information substantiate the hypothesis that Hindu rulers in the past had regularly destroyed temples in neighboring kingdoms. She said that she had not written anything but that Richard Eaton, an American scholar had recently written about this phenomenon in the introduction of his latest book. * *A few months later in the December 9 and 16 editions of Frontline published by the Leftist leaning editor N. Ram of The Hindu newspaper Dr. Eaton did publish a long article in two parts that discussed in detail the destruction and desecration of various temples during the Medieval Period. In his article, Eaton attempted to prove the assertion made by Dr. Mukhia's and his colleagues. However it was argued, Eaton failed to understand the difference in scale and magnitude between the few times Hindus raided the temples of other kings, and the much more wide spread and architecturally devastating attacks from Muslim armies.* *I spoke with Professors Thapar and Mukhia and told them that I had heard about Harsha in **Kashmir**, recounted by the poet Kalhana in the 'Rajtarangini'. Harsha destroyed some temples and viharas, but most scholars consider Harsha's actions as exceptions to the usual practice. I pointed out that all of the literature indicates that Harsha was definitely only looting the temples for gold and riches, not desecrating them for ideological reasons. Though the result is the same, the temples were attacked, the intent and the scale of the destruction was very different. **I also mentioned that there seems to have been one or two instances in Rajasthan and **Gujarat** where competing Maharajas raided temples in the neighboring kingdom and stole a murti (consecrated statue) which was considered to be endowed with powerful attributes. Then, bringing it back to his own kingdom, the king erected a new and more fabulous temple for the murti. This type of vandalism is a very different case, the murti was removed as a trophy not as an unholy thing to be desecrated. In the accounts that I had heard, the king who had looted the temple of his adversary did not throw the captured statue in the roadway or bury it into the staircase of a religious structure in his kingdom to be trod upon, but, interestingly, he built an even grander temple and had it installed with fanfare. Though the actions may have similarities, the motivations were very different. * *I also suggested that these types of attacks on temples were not representative of usual practice, but in fact were very much the exception to the rule. Even after reading the Eaton article, I was not impressed by the meager evidence. Though the article very few verifiable examples offered to substantiate this often-repeated claim that Hindus were just a guilty as Muslims for breaking statues and destroying temples. I told suggested to several Leftist scholars in Indian that they should stop using that tact about the Hindus destroying temples, because hardly anyone in **India**really believes them. The evidence that Hindus were equally culpable for the destruction of temples and viharas, similar to the large scale destruction of Hindu temples by the various Muslim dynasties is simply untenable. Though the Marxist historians in **India** use the case of King Harsh in **Kashmir**, it is a rare historical exception, certainly not proof of a legacy of Hindu-driven carnage. Yet the historians who make these claims have failed to uncover any real evidence to substantiate their theory of Hindu aggression. * Let us move on to see what an independent Belgian Indologist Keonraad Elst has to say about claims made by Romila Thapar about Harsh's iconoclasm.Thapar's claims seem to have found favour with Shudda for they fall in line with his pre-determined understanding of Kalhana.* * *Kalhana's first-hand testimony:*** *Now, let us look into the historical references cited by Romila Thapar. Of Banabhatta's Harshacharita, concerning Harsha of Kanauj (r.606-647), I have no copy available here, so I will keep that for another paper. Meanwhile, I have been able to consult both the Sanskrit original and the English translation of Kalhana's Rajatarangini, and that source provides a clinching testimony.* *Harsha or Harshadeva of **Kashmir** (r.1089-1111) has been called the "Nero of **Kashmir**", and this "because of his cruelty" (S.B. Bhattacherje: Encyclopaedia of Indian Events and Dates, Sterling Publ., Delhi 1995, p.A-20). He is described by Kalhana as having looted and desecrated most Hindu and Buddhist temples in **Kashmir**, partly through an office which he had created, viz. the "officer for despoiling god-temples". The general data on 11th-century **Kashmir** already militate against treating him as a typical Hindu king who did on purely Hindu grounds what Muslim kings also did, viz. to destroy the places of worship of rival religions. For, **Kashmir** had already been occupied by Masud Ghaznavi, son of Mahmud, in 1034, and Turkish troops were a permanent presence as mercenaries to the king.* *Harsha was a fellow-traveller: not yet a full convert to Islam (he still ate pork, as per Rajatarangini 7:1149), but quite adapted to the Islamic ways, for "he ever fostered with money the Turks, who were his centurions" (7:1149). There was nothing Hindu about his iconoclasm, which targeted Hindu temples, as if a Muslim king were to demolish mosques rather than temples. All temples in his kingdom except four (enumerated in 7:1096-1098, two of them Buddhist) were damaged. This behaviour was so un-Hindu and so characteristically Islamic that Kalhana reports: "In the village, the town or in Srinagara there was not one temple which was not despoiled by the Turk king Harsha." (7:1095)* *So there you have it: "the Turk king Harsha". Far from representing a separate Hindu tradition of iconoclasm, Harsha of **Kashmir** was a somewhat peculiar (viz. fellow-traveller) representative of the Islamic tradition of iconoclasm. Like Mahmud Ghaznavi and Aurangzeb, he despoiled and looted Hindu shrines, not non-Hindu ones. Influenced by the Muslims in his employ, he behaved like a Muslim.* *And this is said explicitly in the text which Romila Thapar cites as proving the existence of Hindu iconoclasm. If she herself has read it at all, she must be knowing that it doesn't support the claim she is making. Either she has just been bluffing, writing lies about Kalhana's testimony in the hope that her readers would be too inert to check the source. Or she simply hasn't read Kalhana's text in the first place. Either way, she has been caught in the act of making false claims about Kalhana's testimony even while denouncing others for not having checked with Kalhana. * *A.L.Basham* Thankfully I did get to read Basham's article titled*"Harsha of **Kashmir**and the Iconoclast Ascetics" * Basham writes and I quote"The dissolute king Harsha or Harshadeva(AD 1089-1101),when in financial straits,was advised by his evil counseller Lotsdhara to restore his fortunes by looting the temples and melting down the images of the gods" It is evident from the sentence that it was financial problems (due to various vices) that prompted him to resort to doing what he did. Although Basham contradicts himself later in the same article by saying that the motive could not be financial alone but he attributes it to King enjoying acts of heresy.He even contradicts Aurel Stein's explanation that King had been under the influence of turuska's or (Muslims or outsiders) who in this case happened to be Muslims. Even if we accept his explanation, there is nothing to prove that he destroyed temples to promote his faith or ideology (Hinduism) while the contrary can be proved by the following verse from Kalhana's Rajatarangni Book 7 verse 1095 *"In the village, the town or in Srinagara there was not one temple which was not despoiled by the Turk king Harsha." * Kalhana calling him a turk (which was a synonym for Muslim/outsider/foreigner in Kalhana's vocabulary.At many places Kalhana uses the term turuska's to describe Muslims.We will discuss the word Turuska in detail when we analyse Shudda's references to Rajatarangni. Although I do not completely agree with either Basham or Keonard Elst,the reasons for which are the following. 1.Koenard Elst has got it wrong that Kashmir was conquered by Masud of Ghaznvi in 1034.There are no direct/indirect references or credible sources of history to prove that fact.I agree with Shudda when he says that Islamic rule was still some two centuries away. 2.Basham's assertion that we should look to Ajivikas as Harsh's source of his iconoclasm also seems to be a far fetched argument.Shudda himself concludes his argument by stating the following"Basham's argument,albeit speculative,is less reliant on conjecture than the automatic identification of Turuska with Muslim that bedevils the other efforts to wrestle with the complexity of his reign that I have referred to above" Irrespective of the arguments set forth by Romila Thapar,Basham,Elst and others it is conclusively proved in case of Harsha that although he did destroy temples and Viharas both but the reason was not to promote Hinduism or to subjugate Buddhism.What however can be argued is that he may be doing at the behest of whom Kalhana calls Turks(outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims in this case) what later Muslim kings did.ie.Try and Destroy the very root of Hinduism in Sarada Desha. -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. From apnawritings at yahoo.co.in Wed Jan 9 18:02:24 2008 From: apnawritings at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 12:32:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Human rights: Indifferent to suffering? Monica Narula will not agree Message-ID: <206645.43612.qm@web8509.mail.in.yahoo.com> Note: forwarded message attached. Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Wed Jan 9 19:19:01 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 05:49:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-IV In-Reply-To: <13df7c120712251942v25581e10u4a4b589ff63932bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <876934.27839.qm@web45512.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi Rashneek, The explanation is Wonderful,excellent the title "shuddas Rajatarangani" is really great . If I covert line by line, the exact meaning is >"Teesre Ank main Tantrik Shaiv Sadhak Kankalaketu tatha Shamshanabhuti >bhaybheet hain ki Shankarvarman aur uska mantra Jayant,aadveik >matavlambiyon ko desh se bahar nikalne par tule hain.Unki yojna yeh hai ki Yogeshwari >Kalangi Shika ke madhyam se Maharani Sughanda par prabhav daalkar iss >nishkasan ko rukvaya jayen.Tabhi dondi sunayee padti hai ki Sankarshana >aur Maharaj Sankarvarman kee Aagya anusaar jagat pravah se chale aa rahe >nana agam anuyayi apne apni kriyaen karte huyean rajya main rahe parantu >prastut dharmo main vighan daalne wale tap se vimukh papi logon ko raja >sankarvarman samapt kar denge.Bahut se sadhu dar kar rajya se bhagne lagte >hain.Sankarshan svyam shaiva ashram me jaa kar shaivmata anuyyayeon ki >branti door karta hai tatha rajya se bhagte huve logon ko lautane ko >vyakti bhejta hai" Kankalaketu or Shamshanabhuti feared that Shankarvarman and his minister Jayant are thinking to expel the followers of aadveik siddant proposed by sri adi shankaracharya, out of the kingdom. So Shamshanabhuti felt that he can stop this activity by influencing the queen Sughanda. By the time there was a nagara stating that as per the orders from Sankarshana and Maharajah Sankarvarman, those who are all disciples following different siddantas coming through out the world will continue to stay in the kingdom and follow their religious practices, but the king will finish all those sinners creating troubles to the present dharma. Because of this so many sadhu got feared and ran out . Then Sankarshan himself will go inside the ashram and clears the fears and doubts of the shaivmata(aadveik siddant) disciples and followers, also sends people to bring back all those who left the kingdom. >>Thus wherever he could he has closed loops so that half-baked historians don't go on an >>imagination hunt and derive their own meanings. These lines are really true for tormenting history due to lack of clarity over subject or for their own reasons. Regards, Dhatri. rashneek kher wrote: *Part-IV* *Shudda's Rajatarngani* Let us now move to the third part of Shudda's observations where he has written in detail about the kings who burnt temples,destroyed Viharas etc etc.Although I have read both R.S.Pandit's translation of Rajatarangni as well as Aurel Stein's translation( complete with notes and his travels to many places mentioned by Kalhan)the notes that I had made on both (as a Class XI student,I and my father traveled to a lot of places which Kalhana mentions in Rajatarngni) were burnt when my house was razed to ground by terrorists(sorry divinely ordained dervishes and missionaries) on the Janam Asthami of 1990.I will refer to Aurel Stein's translation and footnotes since in my opinion he presents a more detailed account of Kalhana's Kashmir. Another reason for me to refer to his translation and footnotes is that R S Pandit was no historian of any repute, whatsoever, while Aurel Stein's extensive work leaves little to imagination. Thus wherever he could he has closed loops so that half-baked historians don't go on an imagination hunt and derive their own meanings. (I apologize for not being in a position to use diacritical marks.) Let us look at each king mentioned by Shudda 1.*Jalauka:*This King finds mention in Taranga 1,verses 108-152.,Vol 1,page 26.Aurel Stein's translation. While it is true that he did destroy one Vihara(and not many Buddhist Shrines as Shudda imagines and later tells us) the reason for the same as mentioned in Rajatatarangni is that he was disturbed while sleeping because of the music emanating from the said Vihara.It clearly is no religious zeal that drove him to do this act. This can be easily understood the following(Tarnaga 1,140-144)page 26 Book 1,Volume 1, Aurel Stein's Translation: "When you had lately been kept from sleep by the noise of the music of the Vihara,you had at the instigation of wicked persons caused in your anger the destruction of the Vihara.The excited Bauddhas thought of me and sent me forth to kill you.But then the Boddhisattvas called me and gave me the following directions:'That great king is a Sakya(Mahasakya).You cannot hurt him;but in his presence,O good one,you will obtain liberation from darkness(sin).In our name you shall exhort him who has been ed into guilt by wicked people,to give up his hoarded gold and to build a Vihara.If he does so,no misfortune shall befall him in consequence of the destruction of the Vihara,and atonement shall thus be made for him and his instigators." The king repents for the sin he committed in a fit of anger and later builds the Vihara and names it after the divine sorceress.The same can be easily verified by the following Taranga 1,147,page 26,Vol 1 of Aurel Stein's translation "Thereupon the king built the Krtyasarama Vihara,and worshipped there the divine sorceress who had been freed from darkness" So Shudda's assertion that"Jalauka's destruction of Buddhist shrines" is but an incorrect statement.There is only one Vihara in question and not many shrines.Probably in order to prove his point my friend is very liberal in the use of alphabet (s).One may also be tempted to ask if Jalauka was himself a Buddhist,he being the son of Ashoka. Notwithstanding his religious leanings we learn from Rajatarangi that he did destroy 1(one) Vihara for which he later repented by building a Vihara. Now here I ask Shudda to name one Muslim ruler in Kashmir who repented for his acts of Iconoclasm and re-build temples. 2.*Abhimanyu-1.*This king finds mention in Taranga 1,verses 174-184,Vol1 page 31-33,Aurel Stein translation. We straight away go to the verses which Shudda mentions as his proof of Iconoclasm and religious persecution by Abhimanyu 1.These are 177-181. I don't even deem it worth discussing what can be best be defined as Shudda's figament of imagination.Yet for purpose of clarity I discuss it.Theimportant verse is verse 181 of Taranga 1,page 33,Vol1 of Stein's translation.This is how it reads "At that time there manifested itself some miraculous power through which the Brahmans,who offered oblations and sacrifices,escaped destruction while the Bauddhas perished" >From this verse our friend presumes that Brahmans killed or persecuted Buddhists.He supports this what R.S.Pandit in his footnote to the verses 180-181 says"this (snow that killed the Buddhists) is PERHAPS a poetic description of the persecution of Buddhists during this era." One is tempted to ask what is the source on the basis of which R.S.Panditpresumes his PERHAPS. R.S.Pandit being a person of shallow knowledge of history can be pardoned for his ignorance but when someone like our own Shudda (who I greatly regard for his scholarship) uses this as an example of Iconoclasm or Persecution,it is but sad.We could have agreed with RS Pandit,if anything in the Rajatarangi had mentioned Abhimanyu 1, as an unjust ,licentious,communal or ill mannered moanarch.But that is not the case. Not only this,while Aurel Stein makes a detailed foot note of the verse 180,he doesn't even bother to write a word about 181 since to any intelligent reader it is more than self explanatory. 3.*Nara**:This king finds mention in Taranaga 1,verses 197-275,Vol 1,page 34-41 of Aurel Stein's translation.* Shudda's explanation of the verses 199-200 of Taranaga 1,are more or less correct.While Stein mentions the woman in question as the king's wife R.S.Pandit mentions her as king's lover.Whichever be the case the Buddhist monk does seduce the king's wife through magical powers. Enraged by this the king does destroy thousands of Viharas.The reason for destruction of Viharas is clear and needs no explanation.Though an unpardonable sin,clearly religious zeal or conversion or selective persecution is certainly not mentioned. 4.*Mihirkula:This king finds mention in Taranga 1,verses 289-324,page 43-48,Vol1,Aurel Stein's translation.* Shudda writes"Here we enter the terrain of strictly historical account of iconoclasm in Kashmir" He refers to verses 289-293 of Taranga 1.Now let see what is said in them I re-write Stein's translation for the benefit of the readers and for an easy explanation later. 289-293"Then his son Mihirkula,a man of violent acts and resembling Kala(Death),ruled in the land which was overrun by hordes of Mlecchas.In him the northern region brought forth ,as it were,another god of death,bent in rivalry to surpass the southern region which has the Yama(as its guardian).The people knew his approach by noticing the vultures,crows and other birds which were flying ahead eager to feed on those who were being slain within his armies' reach.This royal Vitala was day and night surrounded by thousands of murdered human beings,even in his pleasure-houses.This terrible enemy of mankind had no pity for children,no compassion for women,no respect for the aged." >From the above I could not find out anything that would indicate to me that he killed Buddhists alone or burnt their Viharas only and not Hindu Temples.If anyone else can,I would be more than willing to be corrected.However as Shudda mentions that R.S.Pandit in his foot note says"Huns carried out terrible persecution of Buddhism,destroying Stupas and Viharas and massacring the monks.Although the Huns were hostile to Buddhism,they protected Saivism and their kings built temples in honour of Shiva" *I started looking at the other verses that Kalhana writes for this cruel king.Surprisingly the word Buddhist or Vihara or Stupa simply does not find a mention in the verses which have described Mihirkula's despotic regime.Sothe question of him destroying them simply does not arise unless in someone's imagination.It is possible that other Huna rulers might have done what RS Pandit writes as his footnote.Even that seems improbable,because if any such references would have been there Shudda would have found them. * As far as building temples Kalahana says in Verse 306,Taranga 1 Vol1,page 46 the following"Thus,evil-minded as he was,he founded at Srinagari the (shrine of Shiva) Mihireshwara,and in Holada the large town called Mihirpura" *I hope building a Shiva temple is no proof of Iconoclasm.* As for giving Agraharas,Shudda himself acknowledges that he gave it to Brahmanas born in the Gandhara country at Vijayeshwara.What is notable is the scorn that Kalhana heaps on these foreign Brahmanas for accepting Agraharas from this wretched king.This is how Stein translates this verse. Ref verse 307,Taranga 1,Vol1,page 46, Brahmanas from Gandhara,resembling himself in their habits and verily themselves the lowest of the twice-born,accepted Agraharas from him" *So Shudda's assertion"Here we enter the terrain of strictly historical account of iconoclasm in **Kashmir**" falls flat for want of credible historical proof.* 5.*Jayapida:This king finds mention in Taranga 4,Verses 402-659,page 158-180,Vol 1,Aurel Stein's translation.* This is one king who Kashmiri Pandits need no mention of.Almost all of us in our hour of vanity refer to the miraculous powers of our forefathers the curse of who led to Jayapida's painful end.We often take re-course to our past and foolishly so. What Shudda has observed with respect to Jayapida is true and just goes on to prove my point that the reasons for Icocnoclasm or persecution by non-muslim kings of Kashmir could have been anything but religious expansion or promotion of their own faith.That greed was the motive for his persecution of his subjects can be easily testified by this verse Ref verse 628,Taranaga 4,page 177,Vol1,Stein's Translation "In his persistent greed he went so far in cruelty,that for three years he took the (whole) harvest,including the cultivator's share" 6.Ksemagupta:This king finds mention in Taranga 6,verses 150 to187,page 247 to 250,Vol 1,Aurel Stein's translation. Shudda refers to Ksemagupta's iconoclasm by his act of burning down of holy Jayendra Vihara and subsequent errection of temples.Let us ourselves read what Kalhana says about this incident Ref:171-173 verses,Taranga 6,page 248,Vol1,Stein's translation. "In order to kill the Damara Samgrama,who when attacked by the assassins,had enetered the famous Jayendravihara,he(Ksemagupta) had the latter burnt down without mercy.Taking from this Vihara,which was entirely burned down,the brass of the image of Sugata(Buddha), and collecting a mass of stones from decaying temples,he erected the (temple of Siva) Ksemagaurisvara in a market street of the city,thinking foolishly that the foundation of the shrine would perpetuate his fame" Now,the motive for burning the Vihara is known to us as is the foolish reason for erecting a temple.The king proves himself to be a wicked soul but to attribute the reasons of religious bigotry for the destruction would be taking the argument too far. The argument that he used material from the Vihara to build the temple is fallacious because Stein's translation itself is clear when it reads"and collecting a mass of stones from decaying temples"Even the Sanskrit verse reads"Devagrah" which means temple.Kalhanauses the word "Chaityas or Viharas" to describe Buddhist places of worship ,although a Chaitya is the place of worship while a Vihara is a monastry in which Chaityas were generally situated. 7. *Harsha:This king finds mention in Taranga 7 and Kalahana has written extensively on this king.Ref Taranga 7,verses 829 to 1732.page 333 to 402 of Volume 1,Aurel Stein's translation.* We have already looked at the views of various historians and analysed their writings with respect to Harsha"the Iconoclast"However the discussion would be incomplete unless we refer to what Kalhana writes about this wretched king.We will also see the impact of the word "Turuska" which has baffled historians. There can be no difference of opinion as far as his title of Iconoclast goes. Let us try and understand the reasons for his Iconoclasm based on Kalhanas description.This is what Aurel Stein writes in "Harsha's temple de-spoliation" Ref Introduction Chap 5,sec 5,page 113,Volume 1 of Aurel Stein's translation. "Extravagant expenditure on the troops and senseless indulgence in costly pleasures involved Harsa in grave financial troubles.From these he endeavoured to free himself by ruthless spoliation of sacred shrines.Kalhanarelates with some humour how the incidental discovery of the treasures hoarded at the temple of King Bhima Sahi had turned the king's attention to this method of replenishing his ex-chequer.After the temple treasuries had been ransacked,Harsa proceeded to the still more revolutionary measure of confiscating divine images in order to possess himself of the valuable metal of which they were made.Kalhana records the strange fact that as a preliminary step the sacred images were systematically defiled through outcast mendicants.As Kalhana is particular to specify the few metal statues of gods throughout Kashmir which escaped Harsha's clutches,we cannot doubt the extent of Harsha's iconoclasm.*Can the latter have been instigated or encouraged somehow by the steady advance of Muhammadanism in the neighbouring terrorities?Kalahana,when relating these shameful confiscations,gives to Harsha the epithet"Turuska",ie Muhammadean,and later on makes a reference to Turuska captains being employed in his army and enjoying his favour."* >From the above it almost seems clear that Harsa was greatly influenced by Muhammedeans and is likely to have committed these acts of Iconoclasm under their influence if not at their behest.From the way he went on to destroy and defile almost all icons, without bias either in favour of Hindus or Buddhists draws a parallel to Muslim rulers who did the same.Harsa made no difference when it came to defiling Buddhist and Hindu images makes us believe that he was purely an iconoclast and the philosophy of Iconoclasm where every image deserves to be destroyed is a concept rooted in one Semitic religion alone. Let us also look at the word Turuska and its connotations with regard to Kalhana's Rajatarngni.In all there are 19 references to the word Turuska in Rajatarangni.There is one reference to Yavan in Rajatarangni.There are 14 references to the word Mlecchas in Rajatarngni. I agree with Shudda that words like Yavan,Turuska and Mleccha were used interchangeably to describe foreigners/outsiders/Muslims by Kalhana.ThatKalhana uses the word "Turuska" to describe kings like Husha,Jushka and Kanishka cannot be refuted.We however need to study the word "Turuska" in the context of how Kalhana uses it for Harsa.We also need to see how Stein understands this word.For the benefit of the readers I give below all the references to the word in Rajatarangni. Refer:Index Vol 2 page no 546 of Aurel Stein's translation. Turks,their habits iv .179;kings Huska,Juska,Kanishka called Turuskas I,170,viii 3412;enemies of Lalliya Sahi v 152;soldiers of Hammira(Mahumud), vii 51,56,70,118;sell slave girls,520;mercenaries supported by Harsa,1149;Harsa fears attack from Turuskas,1159;Muhammadean allies of Bhiksacrara,viii 885,886,919,923;northern allies of Dards,2843;invaders of the Punjab,3346;artist from Turuska Country vii.528;Harsa called Turuska i.e.Muhammadean,1095. We need to look at the Turuska reference with regard to Harsa to understand whether it was "Mohammadean" that Kalhana meant by Turushka.As far as Stein is concerned he seems to be in no doubt whatsoever.This can be safely understood by the last of the references given above and given again for easy reference.( Harsa called Turuska i.e.Muhammadean,1095,vii). As for other references except for one where Kalhana uses Turuska to describe Huska,Juska and Kanishaka all other references clearly point out that Kalhana uses Turuska as a synonym of Mohammedean.. Still let us look at some specific references Invaders of Panjab,viii,3346,page 261,Vol 2,Aurel Stein's translation……Prince Sangiya,the younger brother of Kamaliya,consecrated (a linga) under his own name.He was born from a race of Ksattriyas,who owing to their native place being within the territory of the Turuskas had learned nothing but cruelty…… Here Stein in his footnote writes..K refers to the condition of the Panjab after the Muhammadean conquest. Soldiers of Hammira(Mahmud),vii 51,56,70,118, Vol 1,pages 270-276,Aurel Stein's translation These verses make for an interesting reading because they describe the Muhhamdean conflict with the Hindu-Shahi dynasty.In this rather detailed footnotes of the verses 47-69 Stein writes"There is no doubt that Kalhana's narrative ,vii 47-69,relates to one of the campaigns which Mahmud of Ghazna directed against Trilochanpala and his allies.The identity of our account with Mahmud has been recognized by REINAUD,lc.Already before him Thomas( J.R.A.S,ix p.190sq)had shown the derivation of this term from the Arabic tittle Amiru-l-mumenin,and its application on coins and elsewhere to Ghaznavid Sultan.Reinaud has also rightly pointed out that the expression Turuska used for Trilochanpala's opponents ,vii 51,56, is particularly appropriate for Mahmud's army,which chiefly consisted of soldiers of Turkish origin." Documentary evidence heavily supports the fact that Harsa was greatly under the influence of his employed Muslim commanders.From the available references it can also be safely understood that in the context of Harsha Kalhana uses the word Turuska to refer to Muslims alone. >From the above one can conclude that though Harsa's iconoclasm had its origins in greed and later in enjoyment of heresy and corruption resulting from power the effect of his Muslim friends can simply not be ruled out.Inmy opinion he was the first of the kings who started the process which was to be later followed by other"Turuska" kings. As is said "Coming events cast their shadows before'The catastrophe that was to hit Kashmiris later had its shadow in Harsha"the turuska". *Sankarvarman:This king finds mention in the Taranga 5 verses 128-227 page 202-216,Volume 1,Aurel Stein's translation.* I wrote in my posting to Shudda"Nowhere has Kalhana mentioned Shankarvarman destroying Viharas" Shudda gives us this verse from Taranga 5 as a proof of Sankaravarman's destruction of Buddhist Viharas.Let us read the verse no 161 of taranga 5.R.S.Pandit's translation pg 207. "Thus the ruler,who possessed but little character,had whatever was of value at Parihaspura,carried off in order to raise the fame of his own city" Aurel Stein's translation of this verse reads like a copy of Pandit's translation.Let us read that too.page 207,Vol1,Aurel Stein's translation. "Thus this ruler,who possessed but little character,had whatever was of value at Parihaspura,carried off in order to raise the fame of his city" Two inferences can be drawn after reading the above verse. 1.Kalhana considers the king as bereft of any character. 2.He took away things from Parihaspura to raise the fame of his city. In order to understand whether this was an act of destroying Viharas alone,we need to know which buildings existed at Parihaspura in the first place.Was Parihaspura a city of Buddhist Viharas alone? Was Parihaspura a city where Buddhist Viharas outnumbered Hindu temples?Did Shankaravarman destroy Parihaspura?Are there any direct/indirect references in the verse mentioned above which would indicate Shankarvarman destroying Viharas? All these questions need to be answered before finding out whether Sankarvarman destroyed any Viharas at all or if he did so how many to be precise and which ones.So let us go back to Rajatarangi and read Taranaga 4,verses 194-209,Vol 1 page142-143 of Aurel Stein's translation. Parihaspura drew its name from Parihaskesava(Lord Vishnu) the image of who was the first installation at Parihaspura.If one reads through all the verses that I have referred to above it would not be hard to know that except for two images of Buddha(including the famous Brhdbuddha image) all other installations were those of Hindu gods and goddesses mainly Vishnu. So Shudda's derivation (from verse 161 of Taranga 5)that stealing of material of any worth from Parihaspura is equal to destruction of Viharas holds no water.If at all he did destroy Parihaspura,Kalhana would have mentioned this === message truncated === --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Wed Jan 9 19:40:32 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 06:10:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-III Message-ID: <834722.18306.qm@web45503.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Rashneek, Forget to add "Yavan" also gives the same meaning. The terms Turk/Mleccha/Yavan used in Sanskrit literature (Not in Rajatarangini only) to describe the outsiders/foreigners. I gone through all the 5 volumes that you posted explaining the scenarios case wise. No words to praise the work. Probably come out due to anguish in condemning the fallacious/malicious history. Dhatri. we wi wrote: Hi Rashneek, This is really Great work and nice explanation on myths. Not only the terms turk produces the meaning (outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims in this case) but also the term mleccha will also produce the same meaning(outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims in this case) widely used to refer in times. Regards, Dhatri. rashneek kher wrote: PART-III I am devoting this part to Harsha alone.This is because he has been pulled out of the historical wilderness time and again by the Marxist historians.This one example is used as a counterweight the huge historical evidence that we have to support religious persecution and Iconoclasm by hundreds of muslim rulers all over south Asia and not just Kashmir alone. It seems as if just because Harsha did what Muslim rulers followed as a matter of policy and an instrument of abuse we are to condone their acts. Harsha"The Iconoclast" Let us first see how Shudda looks at Kalhana especially in the context of the above discussion. My learned friend writes *"We know that Kalhana describes Sankaravarman as a destroyer of sixty four temples. But the motives for this destruction, which Kalhana attributes to greed alone, can be read differently"* This leaves me thoroughly confused for one hand Shudda questions Kalhana's un-biased view on History as you will read above he raises a question mark and says"*can be read differently"* while at the beginning of second series of his essay he says *Kalhana's importance for the understanding of early medieval history in **South Asia** is unquestionable. Especially because his writing embodies a singular and significant model for historiographic investigation and accounting, rare in the pre - Islamicate cultures of **South Asia**. He describes and lists the events that mark the reigns of rulers without favour or prejudice. He makes an effort at consistence and attempts to maintains a rigourous standard as far as chronology and the duration of reigns is concerned. His descriptions of everyday life, of the seasons, of customs, religious beliefs, rituals, war and political intrigue - all furnish valuable details about what life would have been like in **Kashmir**. He explicitly marks a distinction between the mythic and the historic phases of his narrative. He is especially important because reading Kalhana, one finds it impossible to state that iconoclasm and secterian strife was the special preserve of Muslim rulers in **South Asia**, as Hindutva apologists are wont to do.* Please read the last line carefully.I post it again for the benefit of the readers *He is especially important because reading Kalhana, one finds it impossible to state that iconoclasm and secterian strife was the special preserve of Muslim rulers in **South Asia**, as Hindutva apologists are wont to do.* * * *Now let Shudda show me a line wherein I have said that Iconoclasm and Secterian Strife was the preserve of Muslim Rulers alone* To make my point of view clear on this I am quoting myself from an article I wrote long back for Greater Kashmir(a separatist leaning newspaper published from Srinagar).This shall prove beyond doubt what my take is on the kings of Kashmir,irrespective of their religious leanings.. * * *"Only when one looks back into the pages of history one realizes how unfortunate have we been. Except for three kings ie Lalitaditya Muktapida, Avantivarman and Sultan Zainulabidin in whose regimes we saw development and prosperity in Kashmir,we have mostly been ruled by cruel despots.Till the advent of Islam we have been ruled by kings who were more or less indigenous rulers except for Asoka and rulers of Kushana dynasty. With the advent of Islam, we had kings of foreign origin ruling us. However the uniting thread among all these kings was their cruelty and in dealing with their subjects." * * * *Romila Thapar and Harbans Mukhiya-Lies and Un-substantiated Claims* Let us examine what Romila Thapar,A L Basham and Mukhiya have to say about iconoclasm by Hindu kings in Kashmir in their various articles.Although I could not put my hands on all the articles which Shudda had referred to yet I did read enough to get a hang of what Romila Thapar(whose knowledge and erudition of Sanskrit has always been a question mark) and Mukhiya whose Marxist leftist credentials have never been under question.So we kind of know which side of their bread is buttered.We will try and understand what Basham says about "Harsha the Iconoclast".I am leaving Mukhiya alone but if need be ,we will discuss his understanding of Harsha as well.I will also like the forum to read through this piece of extremely unbiased work by an American Student. * * *Puzzling Dimensions and Theoretical Knots in my **Graduate** **School** Research By Yvette Claire Rosser, M.A., Ph.D. * * * *http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/s_es/s_es_rosse_puzzle_frameset.htm* *A few days later I met with Professor Romila Thapar and told her Prof. Mukhia had told me that she could provide information substantiate the hypothesis that Hindu rulers in the past had regularly destroyed temples in neighboring kingdoms. She said that she had not written anything but that Richard Eaton, an American scholar had recently written about this phenomenon in the introduction of his latest book. * *A few months later in the December 9 and 16 editions of Frontline published by the Leftist leaning editor N. Ram of The Hindu newspaper Dr. Eaton did publish a long article in two parts that discussed in detail the destruction and desecration of various temples during the Medieval Period. In his article, Eaton attempted to prove the assertion made by Dr. Mukhia's and his colleagues. However it was argued, Eaton failed to understand the difference in scale and magnitude between the few times Hindus raided the temples of other kings, and the much more wide spread and architecturally devastating attacks from Muslim armies.* *I spoke with Professors Thapar and Mukhia and told them that I had heard about Harsha in **Kashmir**, recounted by the poet Kalhana in the 'Rajtarangini'. Harsha destroyed some temples and viharas, but most scholars consider Harsha's actions as exceptions to the usual practice. I pointed out that all of the literature indicates that Harsha was definitely only looting the temples for gold and riches, not desecrating them for ideological reasons. Though the result is the same, the temples were attacked, the intent and the scale of the destruction was very different. **I also mentioned that there seems to have been one or two instances in Rajasthan and **Gujarat** where competing Maharajas raided temples in the neighboring kingdom and stole a murti (consecrated statue) which was considered to be endowed with powerful attributes. Then, bringing it back to his own kingdom, the king erected a new and more fabulous temple for the murti. This type of vandalism is a very different case, the murti was removed as a trophy not as an unholy thing to be desecrated. In the accounts that I had heard, the king who had looted the temple of his adversary did not throw the captured statue in the roadway or bury it into the staircase of a religious structure in his kingdom to be trod upon, but, interestingly, he built an even grander temple and had it installed with fanfare. Though the actions may have similarities, the motivations were very different. * *I also suggested that these types of attacks on temples were not representative of usual practice, but in fact were very much the exception to the rule. Even after reading the Eaton article, I was not impressed by the meager evidence. Though the article very few verifiable examples offered to substantiate this often-repeated claim that Hindus were just a guilty as Muslims for breaking statues and destroying temples. I told suggested to several Leftist scholars in Indian that they should stop using that tact about the Hindus destroying temples, because hardly anyone in **India**really believes them. The evidence that Hindus were equally culpable for the destruction of temples and viharas, similar to the large scale destruction of Hindu temples by the various Muslim dynasties is simply untenable. Though the Marxist historians in **India** use the case of King Harsh in **Kashmir**, it is a rare historical exception, certainly not proof of a legacy of Hindu-driven carnage. Yet the historians who make these claims have failed to uncover any real evidence to substantiate their theory of Hindu aggression. * Let us move on to see what an independent Belgian Indologist Keonraad Elst has to say about claims made by Romila Thapar about Harsh's iconoclasm.Thapar's claims seem to have found favour with Shudda for they fall in line with his pre-determined understanding of Kalhana.* * *Kalhana's first-hand testimony:*** *Now, let us look into the historical references cited by Romila Thapar. Of Banabhatta's Harshacharita, concerning Harsha of Kanauj (r.606-647), I have no copy available here, so I will keep that for another paper. Meanwhile, I have been able to consult both the Sanskrit original and the English translation of Kalhana's Rajatarangini, and that source provides a clinching testimony.* *Harsha or Harshadeva of **Kashmir** (r.1089-1111) has been called the "Nero of **Kashmir**", and this "because of his cruelty" (S.B. Bhattacherje: Encyclopaedia of Indian Events and Dates, Sterling Publ., Delhi 1995, p.A-20). He is described by Kalhana as having looted and desecrated most Hindu and Buddhist temples in **Kashmir**, partly through an office which he had created, viz. the "officer for despoiling god-temples". The general data on 11th-century **Kashmir** already militate against treating him as a typical Hindu king who did on purely Hindu grounds what Muslim kings also did, viz. to destroy the places of worship of rival religions. For, **Kashmir** had already been occupied by Masud Ghaznavi, son of Mahmud, in 1034, and Turkish troops were a permanent presence as mercenaries to the king.* *Harsha was a fellow-traveller: not yet a full convert to Islam (he still ate pork, as per Rajatarangini 7:1149), but quite adapted to the Islamic ways, for "he ever fostered with money the Turks, who were his centurions" (7:1149). There was nothing Hindu about his iconoclasm, which targeted Hindu temples, as if a Muslim king were to demolish mosques rather than temples. All temples in his kingdom except four (enumerated in 7:1096-1098, two of them Buddhist) were damaged. This behaviour was so un-Hindu and so characteristically Islamic that Kalhana reports: "In the village, the town or in Srinagara there was not one temple which was not despoiled by the Turk king Harsha." (7:1095)* *So there you have it: "the Turk king Harsha". Far from representing a separate Hindu tradition of iconoclasm, Harsha of **Kashmir** was a somewhat peculiar (viz. fellow-traveller) representative of the Islamic tradition of iconoclasm. Like Mahmud Ghaznavi and Aurangzeb, he despoiled and looted Hindu shrines, not non-Hindu ones. Influenced by the Muslims in his employ, he behaved like a Muslim.* *And this is said explicitly in the text which Romila Thapar cites as proving the existence of Hindu iconoclasm. If she herself has read it at all, she must be knowing that it doesn't support the claim she is making. Either she has just been bluffing, writing lies about Kalhana's testimony in the hope that her readers would be too inert to check the source. Or she simply hasn't read Kalhana's text in the first place. Either way, she has been caught in the act of making false claims about Kalhana's testimony even while denouncing others for not having checked with Kalhana. * *A.L.Basham* Thankfully I did get to read Basham's article titled*"Harsha of **Kashmir**and the Iconoclast Ascetics" * Basham writes and I quote"The dissolute king Harsha or Harshadeva(AD 1089-1101),when in financial straits,was advised by his evil counseller Lotsdhara to restore his fortunes by looting the temples and melting down the images of the gods" It is evident from the sentence that it was financial problems (due to various vices) that prompted him to resort to doing what he did. Although Basham contradicts himself later in the same article by saying that the motive could not be financial alone but he attributes it to King enjoying acts of heresy.He even contradicts Aurel Stein's explanation that King had been under the influence of turuska's or (Muslims or outsiders) who in this case happened to be Muslims. Even if we accept his explanation, there is nothing to prove that he destroyed temples to promote his faith or ideology (Hinduism) while the contrary can be proved by the following verse from Kalhana's Rajatarangni Book 7 verse 1095 *"In the village, the town or in Srinagara there was not one temple which was not despoiled by the Turk king Harsha." * Kalhana calling him a turk (which was a synonym for Muslim/outsider/foreigner in Kalhana's vocabulary.At many places Kalhana uses the term turuska's to describe Muslims.We will discuss the word Turuska in detail when we analyse Shudda's references to Rajatarangni. Although I do not completely agree with either Basham or Keonard Elst,the reasons for which are the following. 1.Koenard Elst has got it wrong that Kashmir was conquered by Masud of Ghaznvi in 1034.There are no direct/indirect references or credible sources of history to prove that fact.I agree with Shudda when he says that Islamic rule was still some two centuries away. 2.Basham's assertion that we should look to Ajivikas as Harsh's source of his iconoclasm also seems to be a far fetched argument.Shudda himself concludes his argument by stating the following"Basham's argument,albeit speculative,is less reliant on conjecture than the automatic identification of Turuska with Muslim that bedevils the other efforts to wrestle with the complexity of his reign that I have referred to above" Irrespective of the arguments set forth by Romila Thapar,Basham,Elst and others it is conclusively proved in case of Harsha that although he did destroy temples and Viharas both but the reason was not to promote Hinduism or to subjugate Buddhism.What however can be argued is that he may be doing at the behest of whom Kalhana calls Turks(outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims in this case) what later Muslim kings did.ie.Try and Destroy the very root of Hinduism in Sarada Desha. -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 9 19:42:47 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 06:12:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Zakir Naik finally steps on someone's toes Message-ID: <283420.32396.qm@web51403.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Row over Islamic preacher's remarks MUMBAI: Islamic preacher Zakir Naik is in the eye of a storm for the laudatory remarks he made about a controversial Islamic figure during the recent peace conference in the city. Muslim scholars, both Shias and Sunnis, are threatening an agitation if Naik doesn't apologise and retract his controversial utterances soon. At the concluding session of the 10-day Islamic peace conference at Somaiya Ground in Sion on December 2, Naik shocked many in the audience when he addressed Yazid as "Raziallah tala anho"(May Allah be pleased with him). He also reportedly called the battle of Karbala a political battle. Yazid has been historically condemned for having killed 72 Muslims, including Prophet Mohammed's grandson Imam Hussein and his close relatives, at the battle of Karbala in the 7th century on the banks of the Tigris (present day Iraq). The Shias consider it Yazid's unpardonable sin and commemorate the martyrdom with a 10-day mourning, culminating into Ashura (10th day) in Muharram. "Naik's irresponsible remarks have hurt the sentiments of both the Shias and the Sunnis. The honorifics are reserved for the Prophet's companions, not for someone like Yazid, the butcher of Karbala. And he can't call Karbala a political battle as it was essentially a religious battle,"protested Shia scholar Maulana Zaheer Abbas Rizvi. Naik, who returned from Haj on Wednesday, conveyed his reaction through his brother Mohammed Naik: "At the peace conference, while replying to a question, I neither condemned nor lauded Yazid. I did say 'May Allah be pleased with him' while mentioning Yazid. I can show the fatwas from seminaries like Darul Uloom Deoband supporting my stand." ==== http://indianmuslims.in/mind-your-words-mr-zakir-naik/ Mind your Words Mr Zakir Naik! Posted: 08 Jan 2008 01:00 AM CST I felt very sad after watching the video of Zakir Naik praising Yazid. In a response to the tragedy of Karbala, he concludes Karbala to be a mere political war and addresses Yazid as “Yazid [May Allah be pleased with him].” I got the news earlier but waited to see the video myself before arriving at any conclusion. I was a fan of Mr Naik but after this episode I really wonder whether he has any clue about the history of Islam and why Karbala happened. I strongly condemn Mr Naik for his words and demand an apology from him! Here’s a link to the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8xtVRy3960 When questioned about his stand, he has this to say - Naik, who returned from Haj on Wednesday, conveyed his reaction through his brother Mohammed Naik: “At the peace conference, while replying to a question, I neither condemned nor lauded Yazid. I did say ‘May Allah be pleased with him’ while mentioning Yazid. I can show the fatwas from seminaries like Darul Uloom Deoband supporting my stand.” This ‘fatwa’ part of the statement really amuses me. I always thought of Mr Naik as a Islamic scholar of repute. What importance do these so called fatwas hold when the Qurán clearly says: “If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.”—Surah Nisa (Chapter 4), Verse 93 And I thought Mr Naik knows the Qurán by heart. ====== Khushwant Singh says "My grievance against Muslims like Naik and those who listen to him with rapt attention is that they are trivialising Islam. Zakir Naik says – "Western society claims to have uplifted women. On the contrary, it has actually degraded them to the status of concubines, mistresses, and society butterflies who are mere tools in the hands of pleasure seekers and sex marketers ." All I can say in reply is "Dr. Naik, you know next to nothing about the Western society and are talking through your skull cap. People like you are making the Muslims lag behind other communities.” http://hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=06f7254f-ebfd-4aed-93dc-1bc5e61713a4 Here are some statistics of violence on women just to set some claims by Naik in the right context. Religion has nothing to do with crimes. It’s about the evil side of the human mind and how society’s internal security fail. http://www.feminist.com/antiviolence/facts.html I don’t have any problem with people who feel co-education is evil or air-hostess job is a sinful profession. There are too many people in the world who believe that they know best how people should live their lives, and many of them are more than willing to use force to impose those beliefs on others. I’m not one of them. I’m ok as long as I can lead my life as per my beliefs. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From gowharfazili at yahoo.com Wed Jan 9 20:35:06 2008 From: gowharfazili at yahoo.com (gowhar fazli) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 07:05:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Curtain Raiser Of International Week of Justice Festival 2008 Message-ID: <913538.238.qm@web60611.mail.yahoo.com> Amnesty International India Invites you to the Curtain Raiser Of International Week of Justice Festival 2008 Inaugural Film: Khuda Ke Liye Directed By Shoaib Mansoor, Pakistan Photo Exhibition on Voices of Dignity Curated by Parthiv Shah & Centre for Media and Communication Musical Performances by Advaita & Sajid Akbar Lamp-lighting and Newsletter Release: Guests of Honour Felicitations: Presentation of Mementos Sunday, January 13, 2008 Time: 4.00 p.m. onwards Venue: Siri Fort Auditorium II, New Delhi. Siri Fort Cultural Complex, August Kranti Marg New Delhi Commemorating the 60th Anniversary of Universal Declaration of Human Rights In association with RSVP Amnesty International India C-1/22, SDA, Hauz Khas New Delhi-16 Ph. 011-41642501, 26854763 Fax -011-26510202 carafest at amnesty.org.in www.amnesty.org.in In association with CMAC Film South Asia Screen Magic Lantern PVR Unfortunately, the balance of nature decrees that a super-abundance of dreams is paid for by a growing potential for nightmares. Love is an act of endless forgiveness, a tender look which becomes a habit. Peter Ustinov ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From parthaekka at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 10:35:01 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:35:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-III In-Reply-To: <126229.40713.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <13df7c120712251939nac0317ao2a65316971ebcdb4@mail.gmail.com> <126229.40713.qm@web45510.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32144e990801092105x3a2640c1h734620e01c1085f1@mail.gmail.com> Hi, 1. 'Mlechha' was a derogatory term to describe people who 'did not follow Vedic principles' much as 'Firang' is used today for 'foreigners'. It was also used to refer to Meat Eaters which covers a vast part of the tribals who can not by any stretch of imagination be considered foreigners. 2. The usage of the word 'Turk' for Harsha was a distancing by the local populace in those days to disassociate the King from the trend. However, if 'foreigner;, 'outsider' and 'mlechha' are considered, then Harsha was by birth and place certainly a Hindu and not a Turk. In fact, even as per the Rajatarangini he ate pork and was not a full convert to Islam. 3. Rashneek's debate is not about outsiders/foreigners. It is about the destruction of religious structures - which Harsha as a Hindu ruler did to both Temples and Buddhist monastries irrespective of what relegion they followed. 4. Even if we reach a point where we accept conversion (thereby happily throwing Harsha out of the 'Hindu' group and disowning his activities), it does not make Muslims outsiders. Other than any one else who may have converted for whatever reason, "the Turk king Harsha" as he's referred to in the Rajatarangini was certainly a local and cannot be considered an outsider however his behaviour may have been. We may want to disown him, but that does not change Harsha's origin. 5. All that aside, let us for a moment agree that Islamic iconoclasts did despoil some temples some decades or centuries back. Now what? Are we going to rebuild all those temples after researching how many were destroyed and where? While we are going about doing that will we remove the British and Portugese structures all over India - including the North/South Blocks and a host of other buildings. That sounds rather ridiculous to me and if that time & money is going to be spent I do hope it's spent on education, hospitals, infrastructure and tons of other areas that this country needs shoring up on. Rgds, Partha ............................... On Jan 9, 2008 5:53 PM, we wi wrote: > Hi Rashneek, > > This is really Great work and nice explanation on myths. Not only the > terms turk produces the meaning (outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims in > this case) but also the term mleccha will also produce the same > meaning(outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims in this case) widely used to > refer in times. > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > rashneek kher wrote: > PART-III > > > > I am devoting this part to Harsha alone.This is because he has been > pulled out of the historical wilderness time and again by the Marxist > historians.This one example is used as a counterweight the huge > historical evidence that we have to support religious persecution and > Iconoclasm by hundreds of muslim rulers all over south Asia and not > just Kashmir alone. > > It seems as if just because Harsha did what Muslim rulers followed as > a matter of policy and an instrument of abuse we are to condone their > acts. > > > > Harsha"The Iconoclast" > > > > Let us first see how Shudda looks at Kalhana especially in the context > of the above discussion. > > > > My learned friend writes > > > > *"We know that Kalhana describes Sankaravarman as a destroyer of sixty > > four temples. But the motives for this destruction, which Kalhana > > attributes to greed alone, can be read differently"* > > > > This leaves me thoroughly confused for one hand Shudda questions > Kalhana's un-biased view on History as you will read above he raises a > question mark and says"*can be read differently"* while at the > beginning of second series of his essay he says > > > > *Kalhana's importance for the understanding of early medieval history in > **South Asia** is unquestionable. Especially because his writing embodies > a > > singular and significant model for historiographic investigation and > > accounting, rare in the pre - Islamicate cultures of **South Asia**. He > > describes and lists the events that mark the reigns of rulers without > > favour or prejudice. He makes an effort at consistence and attempts to > > maintains a rigourous standard as far as chronology and the duration of > > reigns is concerned. His descriptions of everyday life, of the seasons, > > of customs, religious beliefs, rituals, war and political intrigue - all > > furnish valuable details about what life would have been like in > **Kashmir**. He explicitly marks a distinction between the mythic and the > > historic phases of his narrative. He is especially important because > > reading Kalhana, one finds it impossible to state that iconoclasm and > > secterian strife was the special preserve of Muslim rulers in **South > > Asia**, as Hindutva apologists are wont to do.* > > > > Please read the last line carefully.I post it again for the benefit of > the readers > > > > *He is especially important because > > reading Kalhana, one finds it impossible to state that iconoclasm and > > secterian strife was the special preserve of Muslim rulers in **South > > Asia**, as Hindutva apologists are wont to do.* > > * * > > *Now let Shudda show me a line wherein I have said that Iconoclasm and > Secterian Strife was the preserve of Muslim Rulers alone* > > > > To make my point of view clear on this I am quoting myself from an > article I wrote long back for Greater Kashmir(a separatist leaning > newspaper published from Srinagar).This shall prove beyond doubt what > my take is on the kings of Kashmir,irrespective of their religious > leanings.. > > * * > > *"Only when one looks back into the pages of history one realizes how > unfortunate have we been. Except for three kings ie Lalitaditya Muktapida, > Avantivarman and Sultan Zainulabidin in whose regimes we saw development > and > prosperity in Kashmir,we have mostly been ruled by cruel despots.Till the > advent of Islam we have been ruled by kings who were more or less > indigenous > rulers except for Asoka and rulers of Kushana dynasty. With the advent of > Islam, we had kings of foreign origin ruling us. However the uniting > thread > among all these kings was their cruelty and in dealing with their > subjects." > * > > * * > > *Romila Thapar and Harbans Mukhiya-Lies and Un-substantiated Claims* > > > > Let us examine what Romila Thapar,A L Basham and Mukhiya have to say > about iconoclasm by Hindu kings in Kashmir in their various > articles.Although I could not put my hands on all the articles which > Shudda had referred to yet I did read enough to get a hang of what > Romila Thapar(whose knowledge and erudition of Sanskrit has always > been a question mark) and Mukhiya whose Marxist leftist credentials > have never been under question.So we kind of know which side of their > bread is buttered.We will try and understand what Basham says about > "Harsha the Iconoclast".I am leaving Mukhiya alone but if need be ,we > will discuss his understanding of Harsha as well.I will also like the > forum to read through this piece of extremely unbiased work by an > American Student. > > * * > > *Puzzling Dimensions and Theoretical Knots in my **Graduate** > **School** Research By Yvette Claire Rosser, M.A., Ph.D. * > > * * > > * > http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/s_es/s_es_rosse_puzzle_frameset.htm* > > *A few days later I met with Professor Romila Thapar and told her Prof. > Mukhia had told me that she could provide information substantiate the > hypothesis that Hindu rulers in the past had regularly destroyed temples > in > neighboring kingdoms. She said that she had not written anything but that > Richard Eaton, an American scholar had recently written about this > phenomenon in the introduction of his latest book. * > > *A few months later in the December 9 and 16 editions of Frontline > published > by the Leftist leaning editor N. Ram of The Hindu newspaper Dr. Eaton did > publish a long article in two parts that discussed in detail the > destruction > and desecration of various temples during the Medieval Period. In his > article, Eaton attempted to prove the assertion made by Dr. Mukhia's and > his > colleagues. However it was argued, Eaton failed to understand the > difference > in scale and magnitude between the few times Hindus raided the temples of > other kings, and the much more wide spread and architecturally devastating > attacks from Muslim armies.* > > *I spoke with Professors Thapar and Mukhia and told them that I had heard > about Harsha in **Kashmir**, recounted by the poet Kalhana in the > 'Rajtarangini'. Harsha destroyed some temples and viharas, but most > scholars > consider Harsha's actions as exceptions to the usual practice. I pointed > out > that all of the literature indicates that Harsha was definitely only > looting > the temples for gold and riches, not desecrating them for ideological > reasons. Though the result is the same, the temples were attacked, the > intent and the scale of the destruction was very different. **I also > mentioned that there seems to have been one or two instances in Rajasthan > and **Gujarat** where competing Maharajas raided temples in the > neighboring > kingdom and stole a murti (consecrated statue) which was considered to be > endowed with powerful attributes. Then, bringing it back to his own > kingdom, > the king erected a new and more fabulous temple for the murti. This type > of > vandalism is a very different case, the murti was removed as a trophy not > as > an unholy thing to be desecrated. In the accounts that I had heard, the > king > who had looted the temple of his adversary did not throw the captured > statue > in the roadway or bury it into the staircase of a religious structure in > his > kingdom to be trod upon, but, interestingly, he built an even grander > temple > and had it installed with fanfare. Though the actions may have > similarities, > the motivations were very different. * > > *I also suggested that these types of attacks on temples were not > representative of usual practice, but in fact were very much the exception > to the rule. Even after reading the Eaton article, I was not impressed by > the meager evidence. Though the article very few verifiable examples > offered > to substantiate this often-repeated claim that Hindus were just a guilty > as > Muslims for breaking statues and destroying temples. I told suggested to > several Leftist scholars in Indian that they should stop using that tact > about the Hindus destroying temples, because hardly anyone in > **India**really believes them. The > evidence that Hindus were equally culpable for the destruction of temples > and viharas, similar to the large scale destruction of Hindu temples by > the > various Muslim dynasties is simply untenable. Though the Marxist > historians > in **India** use the case of King Harsh in **Kashmir**, it is a rare > historical exception, certainly not proof of a legacy of Hindu-driven > carnage. Yet the historians who make these claims have failed to uncover > any > real evidence to substantiate their theory of Hindu aggression. * > > Let us move on to see what an independent Belgian Indologist Keonraad > Elst has to say about claims made by Romila Thapar about Harsh's > iconoclasm.Thapar's claims seem to have found favour with Shudda for > they fall in line with his pre-determined understanding of Kalhana.* * > > *Kalhana's first-hand testimony:*** > > *Now, let us look into the historical references cited by Romila Thapar. > Of > Banabhatta's Harshacharita, concerning Harsha of Kanauj (r.606-647), I > have > no copy available here, so I will keep that for another paper. Meanwhile, > I > have been able to consult both the Sanskrit original and the English > translation of Kalhana's Rajatarangini, and that source provides a > clinching > testimony.* > > *Harsha or Harshadeva of **Kashmir** (r.1089-1111) has been called the > "Nero > of **Kashmir**", and this "because of his cruelty" (S.B. Bhattacherje: > Encyclopaedia of Indian Events and Dates, Sterling Publ., Delhi 1995, > p.A-20). > He is described by Kalhana as having looted and desecrated most Hindu and > Buddhist temples in **Kashmir**, partly through an office which he had > created, viz. the "officer for despoiling god-temples". The general data > on > 11th-century **Kashmir** already militate against treating him as a > typical > Hindu king who did on purely Hindu grounds what Muslim kings also did, > viz. > to destroy the places of worship of rival religions. For, **Kashmir** had > already been occupied by Masud Ghaznavi, son of Mahmud, in 1034, and > Turkish > troops were a permanent presence as mercenaries to the king.* > > *Harsha was a fellow-traveller: not yet a full convert to Islam (he still > ate pork, as per Rajatarangini 7:1149), but quite adapted to the Islamic > ways, for "he ever fostered with money the Turks, who were his centurions" > (7:1149). There was nothing Hindu about his iconoclasm, which targeted > Hindu > temples, as if a Muslim king were to demolish mosques rather than temples. > All temples in his kingdom except four (enumerated in 7:1096-1098, two of > them Buddhist) were damaged. This behaviour was so un-Hindu and so > characteristically Islamic that Kalhana reports: "In the village, the town > or in Srinagara there was not one temple which was not despoiled by the > Turk > king Harsha." (7:1095)* > > *So there you have it: "the Turk king Harsha". Far from representing a > separate Hindu tradition of iconoclasm, Harsha of **Kashmir** was a > somewhat > peculiar (viz. fellow-traveller) representative of the Islamic tradition > of > iconoclasm. Like Mahmud Ghaznavi and Aurangzeb, he despoiled and looted > Hindu shrines, not non-Hindu ones. Influenced by the Muslims in his > employ, > he behaved like a Muslim.* > > *And this is said explicitly in the text which Romila Thapar cites as > proving the existence of Hindu iconoclasm. If she herself has read it at > all, she must be knowing that it doesn't support the claim she is making. > Either she has just been bluffing, writing lies about Kalhana's testimony > in > the hope that her readers would be too inert to check the source. Or she > simply hasn't read Kalhana's text in the first place. Either way, she has > been caught in the act of making false claims about Kalhana's testimony > even > while denouncing others for not having checked with Kalhana. * > > *A.L.Basham* > > Thankfully I did get to read Basham's article titled*"Harsha of > **Kashmir**and the Iconoclast Ascetics" > * > > Basham writes and I quote"The dissolute king Harsha or Harshadeva(AD > 1089-1101),when in financial straits,was advised by his evil counseller > Lotsdhara to restore his fortunes by looting the temples and melting down > the images of the gods" > > It is evident from the sentence that it was financial problems (due to > various vices) that prompted him to resort to doing what he did. > > Although Basham contradicts himself later in the same article by saying > that > the motive could not be financial alone but he attributes it to King > enjoying acts of heresy.He even contradicts Aurel Stein's explanation that > King had been under the influence of turuska's or (Muslims or outsiders) > who > in this case happened to be Muslims. > Even if we accept his explanation, there is nothing to prove that he > destroyed temples to promote his faith or ideology (Hinduism) while the > contrary can be proved by the following verse from Kalhana's Rajatarangni > Book 7 verse 1095 > > *"In the village, the town or in Srinagara there was not one temple which > was not despoiled by the Turk king Harsha." * > > Kalhana calling him a turk (which was a synonym for > Muslim/outsider/foreigner in Kalhana's vocabulary.At many places Kalhana > uses the term turuska's to describe Muslims.We will discuss the word > Turuska > in detail when we analyse Shudda's references to Rajatarangni. > > Although I do not completely agree with either Basham or Keonard Elst,the > reasons for which are the following. > > 1.Koenard Elst has got it wrong that Kashmir was conquered by Masud of > Ghaznvi in 1034.There are no direct/indirect references or credible > sources > of history to prove that fact.I agree with Shudda when he says that > Islamic > rule was still some two centuries away. > > 2.Basham's assertion that we should look to Ajivikas as Harsh's source of > his iconoclasm also seems to be a far fetched argument.Shudda himself > concludes his argument by stating the following"Basham's argument,albeit > speculative,is less reliant on conjecture than the automatic > identification > of Turuska with Muslim that bedevils the other efforts to wrestle with the > complexity of his reign that I have referred to above" > > Irrespective of the arguments set forth by Romila Thapar,Basham,Elst and > others it is conclusively proved in case of Harsha that although he did > destroy temples and Viharas both but the reason was not to promote > Hinduism > or to subjugate Buddhism.What however can be argued is that he may be > doing > at the behest of whom Kalhana calls Turks(outsiders/foreigners who were > Muslims in this case) what later Muslim kings did.ie.Try and Destroy the > very root of Hinduism in Sarada Desha. > > > -- > Rashneek Kher > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From 0supplement at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 11:20:01 2008 From: 0supplement at gmail.com (ritwik bhattacharyya) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:20:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Archive, Subject etc. Message-ID: <14cbbb9a0801092150s10451c6ap251c04e8a247eab1@mail.gmail.com> Should one continue to justify or validate a *Positivist de-temporality* in history as a *discipline*? It is an important question to ask as some would say that history has been received in the mode of positivist de-temporality thanks to a specific reading that finds it as such. Historical Time itself is a matter of debate and elucidation that cannot be reduced to the discussion of a positivist de- temporality. If however one attempts to argue that history is indeed about fostering positive de-temporality through an academic discipline, one cannot bypass the debate concerning historical time as has been discussed in detail in recent works like Paul Ricouer's *Time and Narrative* (3 Volumes). This is just to remind us of the formidable contenders we would face if we chose to hold on to the Positivist de-temporality argument. Can one address questions of archive without first addressing questions of *history as a discipline*? Let's admit that while we discuss archives we can't do that disregarding archive's role as an equipment within the historiographic operation. Thus without addressing the problem of history as a discourse and the conventions of how it operates , we would not make an interesting argument, especially in view of the question posed by Arnab['*I'm trying* *to get at some form of history or critical/effective history or genealogy which can do without 'archives' ( used in the disciplinary sense of history, ok?']*. Even in generic terms a discussion of archive without discussing its equipmentality within the hegemonic discourse of history would leave many questions unanswered and worse still, many questions unposed. Trying to move *away from Foucault (without loosing him)*? *Subjectivity is crucial*. But simply moving away from Foucault or discussing a text like Agamben's *Remnants of Auchwitz* will not help us to understand why it is crucial in Foucault. And since Arnab had posed the initial question about the relationship between archive and a genealogical enterprise we might just stick on to Foucault 'the happy positivist' for a while. We might look into Archaeology and find out what is being said about 'subjectivation' there. . *But archive, isn't it more close to the Foucauldian provenance of governmentality than subjectivity as a primary first?* Governmentality, we might venture to say, is also about subject formation from above( if the problem, for some reason ,is about the term ' subjectivity', let me plead for its provisional usage here). It would thus be interesting too see why for Foucault, who wants to contest the traditional histpriography etc. Archive remains a valued term, even as it is being used in a modified sense. This might give us an initial foothold. Thanks From sadan at sarai.net Thu Jan 10 11:27:54 2008 From: sadan at sarai.net (sadan at sarai.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:27:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Why Positivist history lasts a long time In-Reply-To: <523683.85734.qm@web8504.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <523683.85734.qm@web8504.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <68cd9f1c3e9fac8482705dcb4df67e83@sarai.net> Dear Arnab, I liked your naughty intellectual cajoling. I also admire your occasional reference to me as if side-glancing and knowing that the person will respond back. Its like that old song ( from childhood) shikaari ayega, dana dalega, par hum chiriya nahi phansenge. Let me assure you Arnab, that I am not getting impatient niether I am defending. Now this is the first mistake when you say you are not defending the message that goes out is you actually are defensive. Now the second mistake, I was trying to clarify my position. The third mistake, what I wrote was not as simplified as you cited. Having made all these mistakes, let me go back to archives. My core concern is to see archives not as something that orders/ defines the production of the knowledge of an object but it is a relationship with the object itself. This means all objects are potentially archives. Now, we both know that this position is hard to defend and at times needless to elaborate. On the one hand, there is nothing fresh that I am saying here. On the other hand,there is certain amount of absurdity that is there in this statement (i.e.the binary between the object and knowledge, knowledge and relationship, relationship and the object etc). What I am struggling is how to recoin this relationship and relocate it at levels that can address issues of experience. You may grant me some analytical space between the production of an archives and experiences of an archive. I also understand that we may not be able too far with the binary between production and experience but I wish to hold this to gain some analytical space that will then allow me to enter at cultural terrain. To simplify here how cultures respond to archives and memory. And I want to articulate how different cultures respond to archives, memory, archival memory and memory in the archives differently. Does this mean anything in the universal project of archives (Foucault's project is universal and though post-colonial locations have mobilised his writings to gain insights, I think we need to blow the subject from within too). Arnab, if you find it impatient let me twist your word i m passionate. This blurs criticality, as they say. This opens up new avanues, wishes, sadan. On 5:40 pm 01/09/08 ARNAB CHATTERJEE wrote: > Dear Prem, > Firstly, you cannot abandon the discussion > at this juncture when it is getting more and more > interesting and apparently a bit north-south but be > sure we'll pull this up well and learn from each > other; we are all students Prem. Now, Sadan is getting > a bit impatient and at times angry largely because > this is his subject and many of the positions which > are being reviewed here are his positions and he will > desperately try to defend them; infact he has all the > right to do so. But the force of good reason will > prevail and we shall all remain best of friends. Let > me tell you, Sadan is my consultant for Bhojpuri music > and despite a disagreement here--if there is one, we > shall remain members of this 'warm fraternity of > useless erudition'. So don't go away, because you'll > rememeber Sadan making excuses for a very important > work and then he came back when he had anticipated his > essential and important engagement. So you shall do. > I love your questions, infact they have a cutting edge > which compells people to answer. I assume in your hey > days, all your love letters were answered. But to > remind you and all, this question rose in conversation > with Mahmood Faruqui and he is still to come. > Now your questions, > 1. Now,how this poistivist historiography carries on > is a big question and a very bitter question. I've > seen people in Kolkata as well in Delhi or > Maharashtra, talking about Benjamin or Hayden White > and then while they write they do not reflect on the > way they are writing. Everything is forgotten. And > this thing goes on and on. Infact this is how a Partha > Chatterjee or a Dipesh Chakraborty stand out, or say, > Gautam Bhadra working with vernacular historiography > attracts me. History as a form of writing if it is not > relexive is just incorrect--after the linguistic turn > and so much. > And I didn't answer your Hayden White excerpt which > might be relevant here, here it is: if history has to > go back to its literary sources, the case for a public > archive becomes more dim. Or otherwise people going > for an internal, semiotic historical reading of a text > will be told to go to the state archives. People > practising semiotic history will be told to unearth > newspapers. > 2. The way you have quoted the original question, I > fail to see why it can't be solved even in view of > your second question. > > Thank You! Shall wait for your further objections. > love > arnab > > > > > > --- Prem Chandavarkar wrote: > > > On 08/01/2008, ARNAB CHATTERJEE > > wrote: > > > > > > Prem : > > > That a positvist de -temporality you don't > > understand, > > > I cannot believe that. All scientific paradigms, > > > formulas are readily a temporal. > > > > > > I did not say that I do not understand. One would be > > blind to claim that it > > does not exist - clearly it is not only prevalent > > but is also predominant. > > I just wondered about two points: > > > > 1. Should one continue to justify or validate a > > positivist > > de-temporality in history as a discipline? > > 2. Can one address questions of archive without > > first addressing > > questions of history as a discipline? > > > > I am traveling over the next one week, with > > infrequent access to mail, so > > will drop out of this discussion for a while. Which > > may be for the best, as > > I realise I have just been causing digressions, and > > at no stage have I > > touched your original question of whether there are > > forms of history that > > are free of archival dependence. > > Regards and all the best, > > Prem > > > > > > Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go to > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.ne > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Thu Jan 10 11:32:21 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 22:02:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election Message-ID: <967438.77509.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Partha, You feel my argument is extremely unfounded. But I have gained praise from societies where I work on philosophies that you have categorized old. I will update you for few instances: 1. Sex Education: I along with few more Intellectuals called a conference with some renowned doctors of Pune. And I put a simple question before the medical science: - Is a child who is 10 or 12 years of age, physically ready to do sex? - Upon educating them on Sex, will they not open out on this topic? - Once perception is clear, will not action follow perception? - If a child practices sex (using condoms), will he not be impacted of various health hazards like Infertility, weaking Immune System being primary in them? - Since, we are not teaching our child to hold on their curiosity on sex, are we not weakening their mind by converting that curiosity to temptations and provocation? - Will not this weakening mind result in Hypertention, Migrane, etc. to follow up? - A BIG QUESTION - How do you want to solve AIDS? - By allowing people to go into extra marital and pre marital affairs with Condoms OR you don't want them to do for healthy social living? You know what the doctors had to say - they simply agreed and asked, what should be the option then as the children are getting exposed to it through various media. And I suggested them - Teach them Yoga and Meditation [this will strengthen their mind and body], allow them to respect teachers and elders [They will not open out for sex with fear], keep a eye on them and play your parents' responsibility to ensure that they are not gone from your hands. I don't know if this is Scrap or Old for you - May be. 2. I have gone and talked with Village people who have seen Caste practice more then we urban people. I asked them few questions: - Do you know the Saints of India (Asaram Bapuji, Murari Bapu, Shri Shri Ravi Shankerji, etc.) and many of them knew about them. And I followed up with a question - Do you all know to which caste they were born into? - Do you know what is their actual names and why they changed their name? - When you go to Temple, do you find the practice of Pandits asking your Caste and then allowing you to enter the Temple? And they were interested that all their perception on Brahmins were wrong. Saints who go to Himalaya for Vedic learning undergo a process of nomenclature upon completion of study so that people do not know them as Brahmins due to birth, but Brahminism is about attaining to the Vedic knowledge - any birth, doesn't matter. Even today this is practiced. 'Brahmins', 'Kshatriya', 'Vaishya' and 'Shudra' are Sanskrit names. It is just a matter of fact that Mughals and British invaded us. Had we also done the same, we would have categorized 'Teachers', 'Soldiers', 'Businessmen' and 'Workers' as caste system of western life style. You see, they are simply nomenclatures in the world of Work. In fact, till Prithviraj Chauhan, we never knew anything about religion, not even Hinduism. And villagers agreed to this. I don't know Partha do not agree to this - he wants reservation as he might be benefiting from it - I don't know. I believing in uplifting the morals of the people of India through their ownership into what they tend to do, not through the carrot of reservation. 3. Foriegn Investments: Parthaji cannot understand a simple thing - Why are investors interested to take away farmer's land [categorically Hindus]. The whole of this nation's first demand is food that depends on the farmers. And now the trend is buy the farming land and convert that to Muslim occupation. Dear friend, try to do the same in any other country - and you will realize what value you hold for this nation. - Why shall we allow Muslim intruders to come and sit on us? - If Builders are doing that, at least they are not outsiders to take over our nation. We can develop strategies to counter that and it would be internal to the nation. Any strategy to counter Foreign Investment upon late realization of errors would bring bad fame to the nation in Inernational Market. The best thing is to check it before the error is committed. - Parthaji is unable to see the Hindu killings in their own nation, what to say about foreign nations. He is unable to see the demand of new Currency in Kashmir cannot take place unless the state is informally segregated from the nation. He is unable to see that no Hindus are returning back to Kahsmir, he feels so though - how I don't know. Dear Parthaji, talk to Kashmiris who have left Kashmir. They will tell you how their women were dragged out of Trucks when they were migrating from their, and they could not do anything against the Swords and gunds pointing at them by common muslim population there. Ask them, how the whole mass used to get massacred their and there was nearly no news coverage for that. You are outdated Mr. Partha - you don't see the History, and you don't know that is planned for future. You are living in the shell created by Congress - the false and complicated shell of Secularism. 4. Charas Ganja are imported by India from Pakistan [that also smuggled and earned value for Kashmiri Muslims] is a fact. You don't know, I have pity for that. And India exports food items in return - great policy. Kill your population and propogate your enemies population. I fear to say them enemy because they have not considered us friends since thousands of years. Some of them are good, and I appreciate them. But I am yet to see, Muslims coming on road to protest Terrorism. I am yet to see, Muslims coming on road with slogans of Jai Hind and Vande Matram. I am yet to see, Muslims coming on road and celebrating India's victory over Pakistan. I am yet to see, Muslims converting to Hindu upon marriage with a Hindu. I am yet to see, Muslims wishing another Muslim 'Happy Diwali' for their brotherhood of Hindus. Bachpan se suna hai, Hindu Muslim Bhai Bhai - Arey mere Bhai, jab Tune mere Mai ko kaat ke khai, to kaisa bhai. I am yet to see, Muslims saying that they would not kill cows because Hindus worship them. HOW WILL THE BROTHERHOOD GROW? Even the most extremist of HIndus are not fundamental, because Hinduism is not a religion - it is a way of life - and hence we do not find any so called religious book of Hindu containing even the word Hindu. There is no word like Caste or Jati - Hindus are true humans, fighting for humanity - and I am among one of them. Best regards, ----- Original Message ---- From: Partha Dasgupta To: Pawan Durani Cc: sarai list Sent: Friday, January 4, 2008 9:50:18 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Hi Pawan, Like many others, had got unsubscribed from Sarai, so just went ahead and re-subscribed, and got tons of mail a few days late - which was quite interesting as I got to see viewpoints and counterpoints without reacting. Anyhow, to get to the point I was going to make - I'm sure you'll agree with me that Chanchal's argument was extremely unfounded in fact based on some dreamlike vision she has of 'Hinduism'. 1. Sex education It is a well known fact that prudism in the form of the insistence of blouses (which were unknown in rural Bengal from my childhood) or pants instead of lungi's and dhoti's were a direct influence of the British hangover for what they considered 'proper'. Go through ancient Indian art, and there are countless instances that will prove this to you. 2. Reservations Per se, for India as to move forward - it has to move forward as a whole from the villages to the towns to the cities. Also, it is a known fact that 'lower castes' are still dominated in areas and that is accepted. Hindu as I may be from birth, I refuse to agree with anyone who may claim that s/he is higher (or lower) than me because of their ancestral name. I'm sure you'll agree that just because some one is born a Brahmin does not denote that they are automatically superhumans endowed with special powers. Similarly, just because someone is a Dalit does not mean that they are mentally or physically incapable. And I have personally met people at all levels who are capable (and incapable) irrespective of caste. The ex-King of Nepal is a prime example of a bad high caste ruler. Then if capable 'Lower Castes' have been kept down, doesn't the Indian Nation need them to be empowered so that India can achieve it's greatness? 3. Foreign Investments The investments may be from 'Islamic States' or Indian Muslims. The bigger evil (though this is a personal opinion) is the people in India who cheat the state and the law of this land and misuse public money / property - from Nandigram to the Registrar of Societies in Delhi who fleeced the nation. Foreign money is subject to many regulations and checks - and if there is a misuse, we should look at catching the people who are supposed to administrate it for public good. 4. Charas, Ganja & Afeem were known as 'Nawabi Showk' well before the British came into India. Charas and Ganja especially are copiously consumed on Shiv Ratri in India. Weakness or addiction has nothing to do with religion, caste or gender - it is purely a personal problem that can afflict anyone. I could go on and on about the misinformed statements of Chanchal, which I'm sure you would also agree are completely skewed. However, as a Hindu (atleast notionally - since I do not believe that any Brahmin has the right to stand between God and me) I do have a problem with someone telling me what I should believe about how a Hindu should believe / behave / think. As a thinking individual and an adult, it is my right to follow my personal belief - all the more so when faced with an incoherent, immature and totally unfounded argument that you seem to agree with (and I say 'seem to agree with' since you answer Ahimoolam's irritation with bland statements that signify unless we subscribe to Chanchal's rant we are 'anti Hindu') Rgds, Partha .......................... On Jan 3, 2008 10:12 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Hello Adhimoolan , > > > > I forgot that this Forum was supposed to be anti Hindu and there are many > who have deviated. Please dont write anything pro hindu . > > > > It hurts > > > > God Bless.... > > > > Pawan > > > > On 12/26/07, Vetrivel Adhimoolam wrote: > > > I realized the need for applying junk e-mail filter. It's amazing that > > a forum like this gets easily highjacked by the Hindu fundamentalist forces. > > The return of barbarism. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > *From:* chanchal malviya > > > > *To:* Vedavati Jogi ; reader-list at sarai.net > > > > *Cc:* sudhakar.koppu at gmail.com > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:48 AM > > > > *Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > There are huge breaking force acting on our Nation > > 1. With the influence of foreigh missionnaries and investors, Science is > > taking tool to introduce concepts like Sex Education in Children - the > > target is next generation should be destroyed. Current generation has > > already met the target of not respecting the nation and running heedlessly > > towards whatever they like. they cannot withstand pressure, nor are the > > brave enough to take bold decisions. they want money and they want wine and > > girls around in the name freedom. > > > > 2. Govt. policies like Reservations are breaking the nation to pieces, > > separating people from people. > > 3. Chrisitian missionnaries are converting the Hindus to Christians at a > > ver fast pace > > 4. Muslims are being intruded (from Bangladesh in particular) in all > > parts, increasing their population so as to become the majority and declare > > the nation as Islamic state > > 5. Foreign investments from Islamic state are continuously buying lands > > through local Muslims > > 6. Charas, Ganja, Afeem, other drugs along with Arms and Ammunitions are > > being continuously coming across Pakistan and Bangladesh borders. Arms are > > provided to Islamic groups and Naxals. Drugs are provided to sex educated > > children of careless parents. > > 7. Muslims are in target of Islamic conversions, continuously marrying > > Hindus girls - Hindus girls are not able to understand that it is they who > > are converted to Islam and the boy is never accepting Hinduism - Why? If it > > was love, we would have found conversions in this field happening in both > > area. > > 8. Indian intellectuals are continuously exported to Foreign countries > > (IIT, IIM, and all good institute students), ensuring that they do not work > > for India > > 9. Export of our Food Items is increasing when prices are hiking in our > > own country. > > 10. Poverty now seem to be the property of minority alone - when > > actually, no minority is under poverty - most of them are on target to > > achieve this nation as a group. > > > > There are so many things happening in this nation from years. And now > > there is only one agenda - kill Hinduism, ask the Youth to be secular and > > attack Hinduism - because Hindus destroyed is India taken over. > > > > Open your eyes, O Hindus - this is not a religion when you talk > > Hinduism. It is the only philosophy that is humanity. What you see as > > differences are actually political move to break the nation apart. Do not > > get moved by such irrationality. have the gut to see beyond the screen, have > > the intelligence to understand beyond what is highlighted in news. > > > > Jai Hind, > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:19:31 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > what is meant by 'your beloved' country? > > don't you stay in this country? > > is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? > > are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com> To: > > vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; > > reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> Date: > > Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why Pakistan? People have migrated to > > African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American > > countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and corners > > of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all Muslims? If > > you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a second > > thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority of > > those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the > > other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were > > > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che> > > Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and > > > Muslims had > > no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena for > > their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > sentiments. How > > do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai? Do > > they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? Those who you > > think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood just > > for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I > > support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard core > > hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath yatra > > and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should be > > the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to power? > > Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership of > > which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya > > Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > > > To: < bawazainab79 at gmail.com>; < > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>; > < reader-list at sarai.net>> Sent: Tuesday, > > December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > > > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find > > india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan.> >> > > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > > > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt > > karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning this country on > > religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal > > rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > > > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram > > temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if you too > > are the sons of this soil, > > why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor? > > babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this earth has > > ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it very well that > > madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are > > trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from > > sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your chidren > > to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere because > > they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for > > reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then > > that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform > > civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields > > in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never > > faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this > > 'false > > > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > > > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been > > taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am > > sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take > > action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to > > garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims > > but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat > > so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is > > politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & > > seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if > > not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation > > building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try > > to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > Date: > > Tue, 25 Dec > > 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > > > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > ; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati,> > When you say "modi does not > > 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including > > bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, > > hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former > > because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway." I don't > > think there are any sentiments left after > > brutal rape, violence and > > torture. When the soul is killed and when you > > have to live in duress > > under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that you 'are > > Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary identity or not), > > you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left? What do you have to > > say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > participated in the 1992-93 riots > > in > > Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken > > against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra > > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in mass > > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to be > > in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed to be > > aligned.> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, > > Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab, 'india is > > a secular country and will remain a secular country > > only because of > > majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who had > > voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india after > > partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread & butter > > was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too > > followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave > > reservations to bc, obcs, by > > reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs & obcs > > and divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities from muslim > > community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir hussain, > > shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... all of > > them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular among > > hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > descrimination, > > indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed carrot of > > 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they can't > > hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. modi does not > > 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including > > bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, > > hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former > > because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. this > > secularism practised by > > congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus. > > terrorists are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is talking > > about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like soharabuddin > > is killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what about > > 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter hindus cannot > > be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! vedavati> >> > > >> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > > electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC : > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> >> > > >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are > > facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra > > Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be > > understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when > > Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. > > in other words, > > it is humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims has yet > > to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass when > > there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single > > movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > > > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > Whenever > > Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > but not > > Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > the > > world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that > > all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever > > Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not > > religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > > > Don't you think > > that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > > Hindus... > > can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > becoming > > another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no > > strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > > > > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same > > God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > > > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the > > nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what > > they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day > > Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would > > start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would > > join the festivals > > of their brothers... the secularism would meet > > its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not > > have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims > > have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > > from > > their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra > > Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > ----- Original Message > > ----From: Zainab Bawa < bawazainab79 at gmail.com>To: > > > > TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com>Cc : > > reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: > > Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > > electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am still a > > bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as for > > formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the > > country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus are not > > Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for > > my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that > > Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > thatModi's > > victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again, > > apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On Dec > > 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > > Isn't > > it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS > > members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > > > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> > > > > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > > > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat > > > > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> > > > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May > > > > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > > > > next > > time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > vrjogi at hotmail.com > > >> To: ; < tapasrayx at gmail.com>> > > Sent: > > Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > > > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > > > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > > > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > > > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> > > > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an > > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: > > < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > > > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > > > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the > > > > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques& > > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: < > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > Never miss a > > thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.> >> >> > Live the life in style with MSN > > Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!> > > > _________________________________________________________________> > Post > > free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in> > > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219> > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > List archive: > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Thu Jan 10 13:03:59 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 23:33:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-III In-Reply-To: <32144e990801092105x3a2640c1h734620e01c1085f1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <332513.7419.qm@web45515.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Partha, I saw and read your earlier remarks and comments over pawan,chanchal mails. I feel happy(myself and of-course on behalf of Rashneek) if you would have directly responded to the 5 volumes of rashneek mails instead of responding this way. I am damn sure that Rashneek will be more joyful for his efforts in bringing the tormented age old history point wise in front of the readers by eradicating the myths created because of ABCD reasons, provided you would have responded directly to his mails. I would like to question you why don't you come-out on your own-way, instead of responding to somebody. Let me quote from rashneeks "Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-III" " > when you are born in a certain land you learn so many things unwittingly." If I slightly change this , If you are born in a certain land and 1) You didn't learn few things at least(not so many) its your fault. 2) Though you learn but kept aside again its your fault(you learned but kept them out you wasted the time in learning them first and for not using them second). Though NALANDA and TAKSHASILA(TAXILA) universities burnt and literature ruined in places like Kashmir along with people, there are books kept at different places. Rajatarangini is just a rain drop in the SANSKRIT LITERATURE OCEAN. Apart from the Vedas to Ramayana,Mahabharata,Bhagavat every thing is Sanskrit. If I start mentioning the great people,book names the list is so vast. VALMIKI,VYASA, ... to ADI SANKARA,PATANJALI,CHARAKA,JAIMINI,ARYABHATTA,CHANAKYA,BANA, GUNADYA,PANINI,KALIDAS,BHOJA,BHATRUHARI,KRISHNADEVARAYA... so many kings,poets,scholars. The reasons are different for these people to become poets and kings and so as their actions(Not the way so called historians noted and the people used the caste and religion and using still) irrespective or their caste and religion. When come to know about the reality and the motive one should feel a sorry for their anguish and illiteracy to understanding the things, but by the time the successfull destruction will be completed. If you read GURUCHARITRA (come to know about the stories at least) either Sanskrit/Devanagari or whatever language version, you come to know that MLECCHA is the term used in that book as well. Like that many words and idioms are just mingled in common peoples life imposed directly from Sanskrit. " >There are so many phrases and idioms in the language that tell us of our past,the >bedtime stories are a world of knowledge which no book of history can suffice for.The >vakhs and shrukhs that ordinary people on the street quote tell us about the socio-cultural >aspect of the age when that vakh/shrukh was written." I inspire for the above said lines because they are true and stand for all practical purposes. Sanskrit ruled India irrespective of place. The regional languages are created either dumping the Sanskrit words and terminology used in those days fully or partially. If your 2nd language is either Sanskrit or your mother tongue then you can come to know about the things and of course you can gain knowledge outside as well (whether it is use full or not). --Next coming back to the argument, People ransacked India created new history and campaigning it in their own way feeling that they did best, but they fail to think and locate about the original preserved history and the exact meanings. Who is stopping you or anybody to participate in country development or Nation building in a CONSTRUCTIVE WAY? Does it really happening the answer is a definite no, rather the destruction is still going on in more worsen way. You could not create a counter logic like the one you framed in this mail or any other mails to support whatever I don't wish to point them out repeatedly. Regards, Dhatri. Partha Dasgupta wrote: Hi, 1. 'Mlechha' was a derogatory term to describe people who 'did not follow Vedic principles' much as 'Firang' is used today for 'foreigners'. It was also used to refer to Meat Eaters which covers a vast part of the tribals who can not by any stretch of imagination be considered foreigners. 2. The usage of the word 'Turk' for Harsha was a distancing by the local populace in those days to disassociate the King from the trend. However, if 'foreigner;, 'outsider' and 'mlechha' are considered, then Harsha was by birth and place certainly a Hindu and not a Turk. In fact, even as per the Rajatarangini he ate pork and was not a full convert to Islam. 3. Rashneek's debate is not about outsiders/foreigners. It is about the destruction of religious structures - which Harsha as a Hindu ruler did to both Temples and Buddhist monastries irrespective of what relegion they followed. 4. Even if we reach a point where we accept conversion (thereby happily throwing Harsha out of the 'Hindu' group and disowning his activities), it does not make Muslims outsiders. Other than any one else who may have converted for whatever reason, "the Turk king Harsha" as he's referred to in the Rajatarangini was certainly a local and cannot be considered an outsider however his behaviour may have been. We may want to disown him, but that does not change Harsha's origin. 5. All that aside, let us for a moment agree that Islamic iconoclasts did despoil some temples some decades or centuries back. Now what? Are we going to rebuild all those temples after researching how many were destroyed and where? While we are going about doing that will we remove the British and Portugese structures all over India - including the North/South Blocks and a host of other buildings. That sounds rather ridiculous to me and if that time & money is going to be spent I do hope it's spent on education, hospitals, infrastructure and tons of other areas that this country needs shoring up on. Rgds, Partha ................................ On Jan 9, 2008 5:53 PM, we wi < dhatr1i at yahoo.com> wrote: Hi Rashneek, This is really Great work and nice explanation on myths. Not only the terms turk produces the meaning (outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims in this case) but also the term mleccha will also produce the same meaning(outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims in this case) widely used to refer in times. Regards, Dhatri. rashneek kher wrote: PART-III I am devoting this part to Harsha alone.This is because he has been pulled out of the historical wilderness time and again by the Marxist historians.This one example is used as a counterweight the huge historical evidence that we have to support religious persecution and Iconoclasm by hundreds of muslim rulers all over south Asia and not just Kashmir alone. It seems as if just because Harsha did what Muslim rulers followed as a matter of policy and an instrument of abuse we are to condone their acts. Harsha"The Iconoclast" Let us first see how Shudda looks at Kalhana especially in the context of the above discussion. My learned friend writes *"We know that Kalhana describes Sankaravarman as a destroyer of sixty four temples. But the motives for this destruction, which Kalhana attributes to greed alone, can be read differently"* This leaves me thoroughly confused for one hand Shudda questions Kalhana's un-biased view on History as you will read above he raises a question mark and says"*can be read differently"* while at the beginning of second series of his essay he says *Kalhana's importance for the understanding of early medieval history in **South Asia** is unquestionable. Especially because his writing embodies a singular and significant model for historiographic investigation and accounting, rare in the pre - Islamicate cultures of **South Asia**. He describes and lists the events that mark the reigns of rulers without favour or prejudice. He makes an effort at consistence and attempts to maintains a rigourous standard as far as chronology and the duration of reigns is concerned. His descriptions of everyday life, of the seasons, of customs, religious beliefs, rituals, war and political intrigue - all furnish valuable details about what life would have been like in **Kashmir**. He explicitly marks a distinction between the mythic and the historic phases of his narrative. He is especially important because reading Kalhana, one finds it impossible to state that iconoclasm and secterian strife was the special preserve of Muslim rulers in **South Asia**, as Hindutva apologists are wont to do.* Please read the last line carefully.I post it again for the benefit of the readers *He is especially important because reading Kalhana, one finds it impossible to state that iconoclasm and secterian strife was the special preserve of Muslim rulers in **South Asia**, as Hindutva apologists are wont to do.* * * *Now let Shudda show me a line wherein I have said that Iconoclasm and Secterian Strife was the preserve of Muslim Rulers alone* To make my point of view clear on this I am quoting myself from an article I wrote long back for Greater Kashmir(a separatist leaning newspaper published from Srinagar).This shall prove beyond doubt what my take is on the kings of Kashmir,irrespective of their religious leanings.. * * *"Only when one looks back into the pages of history one realizes how unfortunate have we been. Except for three kings ie Lalitaditya Muktapida, Avantivarman and Sultan Zainulabidin in whose regimes we saw development and prosperity in Kashmir,we have mostly been ruled by cruel despots.Till the advent of Islam we have been ruled by kings who were more or less indigenous rulers except for Asoka and rulers of Kushana dynasty. With the advent of Islam, we had kings of foreign origin ruling us. However the uniting thread among all these kings was their cruelty and in dealing with their subjects." * * * *Romila Thapar and Harbans Mukhiya-Lies and Un-substantiated Claims* Let us examine what Romila Thapar,A L Basham and Mukhiya have to say about iconoclasm by Hindu kings in Kashmir in their various articles.Although I could not put my hands on all the articles which Shudda had referred to yet I did read enough to get a hang of what Romila Thapar(whose knowledge and erudition of Sanskrit has always been a question mark) and Mukhiya whose Marxist leftist credentials have never been under question.So we kind of know which side of their bread is buttered.We will try and understand what Basham says about "Harsha the Iconoclast".I am leaving Mukhiya alone but if need be ,we will discuss his understanding of Harsha as well.I will also like the forum to read through this piece of extremely unbiased work by an American Student. * * *Puzzling Dimensions and Theoretical Knots in my **Graduate** **School** Research By Yvette Claire Rosser, M.A., Ph.D. * * * *http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/s_es/s_es_rosse_puzzle_frameset.htm* *A few days later I met with Professor Romila Thapar and told her Prof. Mukhia had told me that she could provide information substantiate the hypothesis that Hindu rulers in the past had regularly destroyed temples in neighboring kingdoms. She said that she had not written anything but that Richard Eaton, an American scholar had recently written about this phenomenon in the introduction of his latest book. * *A few months later in the December 9 and 16 editions of Frontline published by the Leftist leaning editor N. Ram of The Hindu newspaper Dr. Eaton did publish a long article in two parts that discussed in detail the destruction and desecration of various temples during the Medieval Period. In his article, Eaton attempted to prove the assertion made by Dr. Mukhia's and his colleagues. However it was argued, Eaton failed to understand the difference in scale and magnitude between the few times Hindus raided the temples of other kings, and the much more wide spread and architecturally devastating attacks from Muslim armies.* *I spoke with Professors Thapar and Mukhia and told them that I had heard about Harsha in **Kashmir**, recounted by the poet Kalhana in the 'Rajtarangini'. Harsha destroyed some temples and viharas, but most scholars consider Harsha's actions as exceptions to the usual practice. I pointed out that all of the literature indicates that Harsha was definitely only looting the temples for gold and riches, not desecrating them for ideological reasons. Though the result is the same, the temples were attacked, the intent and the scale of the destruction was very different. **I also mentioned that there seems to have been one or two instances in Rajasthan and **Gujarat** where competing Maharajas raided temples in the neighboring kingdom and stole a murti (consecrated statue) which was considered to be endowed with powerful attributes. Then, bringing it back to his own kingdom, the king erected a new and more fabulous temple for the murti. This type of vandalism is a very different case, the murti was removed as a trophy not as an unholy thing to be desecrated. In the accounts that I had heard, the king who had looted the temple of his adversary did not throw the captured statue in the roadway or bury it into the staircase of a religious structure in his kingdom to be trod upon, but, interestingly, he built an even grander temple and had it installed with fanfare. Though the actions may have similarities, the motivations were very different. * *I also suggested that these types of attacks on temples were not representative of usual practice, but in fact were very much the exception to the rule. Even after reading the Eaton article, I was not impressed by the meager evidence. Though the article very few verifiable examples offered to substantiate this often-repeated claim that Hindus were just a guilty as Muslims for breaking statues and destroying temples. I told suggested to several Leftist scholars in Indian that they should stop using that tact about the Hindus destroying temples, because hardly anyone in **India**really believes them. The evidence that Hindus were equally culpable for the destruction of temples and viharas, similar to the large scale destruction of Hindu temples by the various Muslim dynasties is simply untenable. Though the Marxist historians in **India** use the case of King Harsh in **Kashmir**, it is a rare historical exception, certainly not proof of a legacy of Hindu-driven carnage. Yet the historians who make these claims have failed to uncover any real evidence to substantiate their theory of Hindu aggression. * Let us move on to see what an independent Belgian Indologist Keonraad Elst has to say about claims made by Romila Thapar about Harsh's iconoclasm.Thapar's claims seem to have found favour with Shudda for they fall in line with his pre-determined understanding of Kalhana.* * *Kalhana's first-hand testimony:*** *Now, let us look into the historical references cited by Romila Thapar. Of Banabhatta's Harshacharita, concerning Harsha of Kanauj (r.606-647), I have no copy available here, so I will keep that for another paper. Meanwhile, I have been able to consult both the Sanskrit original and the English translation of Kalhana's Rajatarangini, and that source provides a clinching testimony.* *Harsha or Harshadeva of **Kashmir** (r.1089-1111 ) has been called the "Nero of **Kashmir**", and this "because of his cruelty" (S.B. Bhattacherje: Encyclopaedia of Indian Events and Dates, Sterling Publ., Delhi 1995, p.A-20). He is described by Kalhana as having looted and desecrated most Hindu and Buddhist temples in **Kashmir**, partly through an office which he had created, viz. the "officer for despoiling god-temples". The general data on 11th-century **Kashmir** already militate against treating him as a typical Hindu king who did on purely Hindu grounds what Muslim kings also did, viz. to destroy the places of worship of rival religions. For, **Kashmir** had already been occupied by Masud Ghaznavi, son of Mahmud, in 1034, and Turkish troops were a permanent presence as mercenaries to the king.* *Harsha was a fellow-traveller: not yet a full convert to Islam (he still ate pork, as per Rajatarangini 7:1149), but quite adapted to the Islamic ways, for "he ever fostered with money the Turks, who were his centurions" (7:1149). There was nothing Hindu about his iconoclasm, which targeted Hindu temples, as if a Muslim king were to demolish mosques rather than temples. All temples in his kingdom except four (enumerated in 7:1096-1098, two of them Buddhist) were damaged. This behaviour was so un-Hindu and so characteristically Islamic that Kalhana reports: "In the village, the town or in Srinagara there was not one temple which was not despoiled by the Turk king Harsha." (7:1095)* *So there you have it: "the Turk king Harsha". Far from representing a separate Hindu tradition of iconoclasm, Harsha of **Kashmir** was a somewhat peculiar (viz. fellow-traveller) representative of the Islamic tradition of iconoclasm. Like Mahmud Ghaznavi and Aurangzeb, he despoiled and looted Hindu shrines, not non-Hindu ones. Influenced by the Muslims in his employ, he behaved like a Muslim.* *And this is said explicitly in the text which Romila Thapar cites as proving the existence of Hindu iconoclasm. If she herself has read it at all, she must be knowing that it doesn't support the claim she is making. Either she has just been bluffing, writing lies about Kalhana's testimony in the hope that her readers would be too inert to check the source. Or she simply hasn't read Kalhana's text in the first place. Either way, she has been caught in the act of making false claims about Kalhana's testimony even while denouncing others for not having checked with Kalhana. * *A.L.Basham* Thankfully I did get to read Basham's article titled*"Harsha of **Kashmir**and the Iconoclast Ascetics" * Basham writes and I quote"The dissolute king Harsha or Harshadeva(AD 1089-1101),when in financial straits,was advised by his evil counseller Lotsdhara to restore his fortunes by looting the temples and melting down the images of the gods" It is evident from the sentence that it was financial problems (due to various vices) that prompted him to resort to doing what he did. Although Basham contradicts himself later in the same article by saying that the motive could not be financial alone but he attributes it to King enjoying acts of heresy.He even contradicts Aurel Stein's explanation that King had been under the influence of turuska's or (Muslims or outsiders) who in this case happened to be Muslims. Even if we accept his explanation, there is nothing to prove that he destroyed temples to promote his faith or ideology (Hinduism) while the contrary can be proved by the following verse from Kalhana's Rajatarangni Book 7 verse 1095 *"In the village, the town or in Srinagara there was not one temple which was not despoiled by the Turk king Harsha." * Kalhana calling him a turk (which was a synonym for Muslim/outsider/foreigner in Kalhana's vocabulary.At many places Kalhana uses the term turuska's to describe Muslims.We will discuss the word Turuska in detail when we analyse Shudda's references to Rajatarangni. Although I do not completely agree with either Basham or Keonard Elst,the reasons for which are the following. 1.Koenard Elst has got it wrong that Kashmir was conquered by Masud of Ghaznvi in 1034.There are no direct/indirect references or credible sources of history to prove that fact.I agree with Shudda when he says that Islamic rule was still some two centuries away. 2.Basham's assertion that we should look to Ajivikas as Harsh's source of his iconoclasm also seems to be a far fetched argument.Shudda himself concludes his argument by stating the following"Basham's argument,albeit speculative,is less reliant on conjecture than the automatic identification of Turuska with Muslim that bedevils the other efforts to wrestle with the complexity of his reign that I have referred to above" Irrespective of the arguments set forth by Romila Thapar,Basham,Elst and others it is conclusively proved in case of Harsha that although he did destroy temples and Viharas both but the reason was not to promote Hinduism or to subjugate Buddhism.What however can be argued is that he may be doing at the behest of whom Kalhana calls Turks(outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims in this case) what later Muslim kings did.ie.Try and Destroy the very root of Hinduism in Sarada Desha. -- Rashneek Kher http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. From uddipana at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 13:40:09 2008 From: uddipana at gmail.com (Uddipana Goswami) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:40:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Assam poet arrested Message-ID: http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080109/jsp/frontpage/story_8759666.jsp Assam poet held for Ulfa tilt A STAFF REPORTER *Guwahati, Jan. 8:* An Assamese poet whose verses speak of anarchic "oppressors" and the angst of the "oppressed" has been arrested on charges of penning seditious material for the banned Ulfa and mobilising opinion against counter-insurgency operations. Police were on 36-year-old Santanu Sarma's trail for three years, by which time he had oozed enough "revolutionary" lyricism to fill five volumes of published works. Sarma has yet to find a place among the cream of Assamese literature, but the allegation that he has been writing and editing material for Ulfa's mouthpiece, *Freedom*, looks set to give this unassuming, bearded youth publicity of the unwanted kind. Those who know him well vouch for his innocence, but Guwahati police say they know their man. A police team traced the poet to Malikuchi in Nalbari town last night and arrested him on the basis of a case registered at Fatasil Ambari police station. Additional superintendent of police (city) Debojit Deori said Sarma was on the "wanted" list since October 2004, when an arrested Ulfa conduit, Anil Mazumdar, named him as the lynchpin of the outfit's network in the city. "We arrested him on the basis of a confessional statement by Mazumdar, who was very close to him. Sarma has denied having any links with Ulfa and is being interrogated by senior police officials." Another police officer said Sarma was known for his "pro-Ulfa sentiments" and proximity to another poet in the outfit's ranks, the jailed central publicity secretary Mithinga Daimary. "Going by the information we have gathered, Sarma is close to Daimary because the Ulfa leader is also a poet and both of them hail from Nalbari district." Daimary writes poetry under the pseudonym Megon Kachari. His collection of verses, *Melodies and Guns*, was edited by Mamoni Raisom Goswami and released at the Frankfurt Book Fair in Germany in 2006. Sarma's published works include *Khetiokor Dekhot*, *Aranya Abhimukhe* and *Bishador Borokhunot Sarir Tiyalu*. A friend said Sarma was framed. "He is a very talented poet and writer, and has received awards for his poetry. We never noticed anything to suggest his involvement with Ulfa. I was shocked to hear about his arrest," an acquaintance said. Another friend said Sarma was framed. "To me, it appears to be a conspiracy hatched by some people with vested interest. I cannot believe this mild-mannered poet can collude with Ulfa." The police said Sarma might even have been involved in extortion of money for Ulfa, though they do not have any evidence of it. The main allegation against the poet is of being a vocal critic of anti-Ulfa operations. "He provoked people to hold demonstrations and protests against arrest of Ulfa cadre. He also instigated families of Ulfa members and conduits to move court and human rights organisations against the police and other security forces," the police said. -- Uddipana Goswami www.jajabori-mon.blogspot.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 13:46:02 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:46:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-III In-Reply-To: <332513.7419.qm@web45515.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <32144e990801092105x3a2640c1h734620e01c1085f1@mail.gmail.com> <332513.7419.qm@web45515.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801100016g1c831af6k23a34d71646b19ee@mail.gmail.com> Hello Partha , We must apprecaite Rashneek who must have spent a huge time and countered an attempt by "someone" to re-create history.Rashneek has bought to us the reality which gives an indepth knowledge about Kashmirs hostory , which was mis represented by "someone" with little knowledge of the particular issue. Let us atleast be honest in admitting the facts . Pawan On 1/10/08, we wi wrote: > > Dear Partha, > > I saw and read your earlier remarks and comments over > pawan,chanchal mails. I feel happy(myself and of-course on behalf of > Rashneek) if you would have directly responded to the 5 volumes of rashneek > mails instead of responding this way. I am damn sure that Rashneek will be > more joyful for his efforts in bringing the tormented age old history point > wise in front of the readers by eradicating the myths created because of > ABCD reasons, provided you would have responded directly to his mails. I > would like to question you why don't you come-out on your own-way, instead > of responding to somebody. > > > Let me quote from rashneeks "Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and > Magnitude-III" > > " > > when you are born in a certain land you learn so many things > unwittingly." > > If I slightly change this , > > If you are born in a certain land and > 1) You didn't learn few things at least(not so many) its your fault. > 2) Though you learn but kept aside again its your fault(you learned > but kept them out > you wasted the time in learning them first and for not using > them second). > > > Though NALANDA and TAKSHASILA(TAXILA) universities burnt and literature > ruined in places like Kashmir along with people, there are books kept at > different places. Rajatarangini is just a rain drop in the SANSKRIT > LITERATURE OCEAN. Apart from the Vedas to Ramayana,Mahabharata,Bhagavat > every thing is Sanskrit. If I start mentioning the great people,book names > the list is so vast. VALMIKI,VYASA, ... to ADI > SANKARA,PATANJALI,CHARAKA,JAIMINI,ARYABHATTA,CHANAKYA,BANA, > GUNADYA,PANINI,KALIDAS,BHOJA,BHATRUHARI,KRISHNADEVARAYA... so many > kings,poets,scholars. The reasons are different for these people to become > poets and kings > and so as their actions(Not the way so called historians noted and the > people used the caste and religion and using still) irrespective or their > caste and religion. When come to know about the reality and the motive one > should feel a sorry for their anguish and illiteracy > to understanding the things, but by the time the successfull destruction > will be completed. > > > If you read GURUCHARITRA (come to know about the stories at least) either > Sanskrit/Devanagari or whatever language version, you come to know that > MLECCHA is the term used in that book as well. Like that many words and > idioms are just mingled in common peoples life imposed directly from > Sanskrit. > > " >There are so many phrases and idioms in the language that tell us of > our past,the >bedtime stories are a world of knowledge which no book of > history can suffice for.The >vakhs and shrukhs that ordinary people on the > street quote tell us about the socio-cultural >aspect of the age when that > vakh/shrukh was written." > > I inspire for the above said lines because they are true and stand for all > practical purposes. Sanskrit ruled India irrespective of place. The > regional languages are created either dumping the Sanskrit words and > terminology used in those days fully or partially. If your 2nd language is > either Sanskrit or your mother tongue then you can come to know about the > things and of course you can gain knowledge outside as well (whether it is > use full or not). > > --Next coming back to the argument, > > People ransacked India created new history and campaigning it in their own > way feeling that they did best, but they fail to think and locate about the > original preserved history and the exact meanings. > > Who is stopping you or anybody to participate in country development or > Nation building in a CONSTRUCTIVE WAY? Does it really happening the answer > is a definite no, rather the destruction is still going on in more worsen > way. You could not create a counter logic like the one you framed in this > mail or any other mails to support whatever I don't wish to point them out > repeatedly. > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > Partha Dasgupta wrote: > Hi, > > 1. 'Mlechha' was a derogatory term to describe people who 'did not > follow Vedic principles' much as 'Firang' is used today for > 'foreigners'. > It was also used to refer to Meat Eaters which covers a vast part of > the tribals who can not by any stretch of imagination be considered > foreigners. > > 2. The usage of the word 'Turk' for Harsha was a distancing by the local > populace in those days to disassociate the King from the trend. > However, > if 'foreigner;, 'outsider' and 'mlechha' are considered, then Harsha > was by > birth and place certainly a Hindu and not a Turk. In fact, even as per > the > Rajatarangini he ate pork and was not a full convert to Islam. > > 3. Rashneek's debate is not about outsiders/foreigners. It is about the > destruction > of religious structures - which Harsha as a Hindu ruler did to both > Temples and > Buddhist monastries irrespective of what relegion they followed. > > 4. Even if we reach a point where we accept conversion (thereby happily > throwing > Harsha out of the 'Hindu' group and disowning his activities), it does > not make > Muslims outsiders. Other than any one else who may have converted for > whatever > reason, "the Turk king Harsha" as he's referred to in the > Rajatarangini was certainly > a local and cannot be considered an outsider however his behaviour may > have been. > We may want to disown him, but that does not change Harsha's origin. > > 5. All that aside, let us for a moment agree that Islamic iconoclasts did > despoil > some temples some decades or centuries back. Now what? Are we going to > rebuild > all those temples after researching how many were destroyed and where? > While we > are going about doing that will we remove the British and Portugese > structures all over > India - including the North/South Blocks and a host of other buildings. > That sounds > rather ridiculous to me and if that time & money is going to be spent I > do hope it's > spent on education, hospitals, infrastructure and tons of other areas > that this country > needs shoring up on. > > Rgds, Partha > ................................ > > On Jan 9, 2008 5:53 PM, we wi < dhatr1i at yahoo.com> wrote: > Hi Rashneek, > > This is really Great work and nice explanation on myths. Not only the > terms turk produces the meaning (outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims in > this case) but also the term mleccha will also produce the same > meaning(outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims in this case) widely used to > refer in times. > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > > rashneek kher wrote: > PART-III > > > > I am devoting this part to Harsha alone.This is because he has been > pulled out of the historical wilderness time and again by the Marxist > historians.This one example is used as a counterweight the huge > historical evidence that we have to support religious persecution and > Iconoclasm by hundreds of muslim rulers all over south Asia and not > just Kashmir alone. > > It seems as if just because Harsha did what Muslim rulers followed as > a matter of policy and an instrument of abuse we are to condone their > acts. > > > > Harsha"The Iconoclast" > > > > Let us first see how Shudda looks at Kalhana especially in the context > of the above discussion. > > > > My learned friend writes > > > > *"We know that Kalhana describes Sankaravarman as a destroyer of sixty > > four temples. But the motives for this destruction, which Kalhana > > attributes to greed alone, can be read differently"* > > > > This leaves me thoroughly confused for one hand Shudda questions > Kalhana's un-biased view on History as you will read above he raises a > question mark and says"*can be read differently"* while at the > beginning of second series of his essay he says > > > > *Kalhana's importance for the understanding of early medieval history in > **South Asia** is unquestionable. Especially because his writing embodies > a > > singular and significant model for historiographic investigation and > > accounting, rare in the pre - Islamicate cultures of **South Asia**. He > > describes and lists the events that mark the reigns of rulers without > > favour or prejudice. He makes an effort at consistence and attempts to > > maintains a rigourous standard as far as chronology and the duration of > > reigns is concerned. His descriptions of everyday life, of the seasons, > > of customs, religious beliefs, rituals, war and political intrigue - all > > furnish valuable details about what life would have been like in > **Kashmir**. He explicitly marks a distinction between the mythic and the > > historic phases of his narrative. He is especially important because > > reading Kalhana, one finds it impossible to state that iconoclasm and > > secterian strife was the special preserve of Muslim rulers in **South > > Asia**, as Hindutva apologists are wont to do.* > > > > Please read the last line carefully.I post it again for the benefit of > the readers > > > > *He is especially important because > > reading Kalhana, one finds it impossible to state that iconoclasm and > > secterian strife was the special preserve of Muslim rulers in **South > > Asia**, as Hindutva apologists are wont to do.* > > * * > > *Now let Shudda show me a line wherein I have said that Iconoclasm and > Secterian Strife was the preserve of Muslim Rulers alone* > > > > To make my point of view clear on this I am quoting myself from an > article I wrote long back for Greater Kashmir(a separatist leaning > newspaper published from Srinagar).This shall prove beyond doubt what > my take is on the kings of Kashmir,irrespective of their religious > leanings.. > > * * > > *"Only when one looks back into the pages of history one realizes how > unfortunate have we been. Except for three kings ie Lalitaditya Muktapida, > Avantivarman and Sultan Zainulabidin in whose regimes we saw development > and > prosperity in Kashmir,we have mostly been ruled by cruel despots.Till the > advent of Islam we have been ruled by kings who were more or less > indigenous > rulers except for Asoka and rulers of Kushana dynasty. With the advent of > Islam, we had kings of foreign origin ruling us. However the uniting > thread > among all these kings was their cruelty and in dealing with their > subjects." > * > > * * > > *Romila Thapar and Harbans Mukhiya-Lies and Un-substantiated Claims* > > > > Let us examine what Romila Thapar,A L Basham and Mukhiya have to say > about iconoclasm by Hindu kings in Kashmir in their various > articles.Although I could not put my hands on all the articles which > Shudda had referred to yet I did read enough to get a hang of what > Romila Thapar(whose knowledge and erudition of Sanskrit has always > been a question mark) and Mukhiya whose Marxist leftist credentials > have never been under question.So we kind of know which side of their > bread is buttered.We will try and understand what Basham says about > "Harsha the Iconoclast".I am leaving Mukhiya alone but if need be ,we > will discuss his understanding of Harsha as well.I will also like the > forum to read through this piece of extremely unbiased work by an > American Student. > > * * > > *Puzzling Dimensions and Theoretical Knots in my **Graduate** > **School** Research By Yvette Claire Rosser, M.A., Ph.D. * > > * * > > * > http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/s_es/s_es_rosse_puzzle_frameset.htm* > > *A few days later I met with Professor Romila Thapar and told her Prof. > Mukhia had told me that she could provide information substantiate the > hypothesis that Hindu rulers in the past had regularly destroyed temples > in > neighboring kingdoms. She said that she had not written anything but that > Richard Eaton, an American scholar had recently written about this > phenomenon in the introduction of his latest book. * > > *A few months later in the December 9 and 16 editions of Frontline > published > by the Leftist leaning editor N. Ram of The Hindu newspaper Dr. Eaton did > publish a long article in two parts that discussed in detail the > destruction > and desecration of various temples during the Medieval Period. In his > article, Eaton attempted to prove the assertion made by Dr. Mukhia's and > his > colleagues. However it was argued, Eaton failed to understand the > difference > in scale and magnitude between the few times Hindus raided the temples of > other kings, and the much more wide spread and architecturally devastating > attacks from Muslim armies.* > > *I spoke with Professors Thapar and Mukhia and told them that I had heard > about Harsha in **Kashmir**, recounted by the poet Kalhana in the > 'Rajtarangini'. Harsha destroyed some temples and viharas, but most > scholars > consider Harsha's actions as exceptions to the usual practice. I pointed > out > that all of the literature indicates that Harsha was definitely only > looting > the temples for gold and riches, not desecrating them for ideological > reasons. Though the result is the same, the temples were attacked, the > intent and the scale of the destruction was very different. **I also > mentioned that there seems to have been one or two instances in Rajasthan > and **Gujarat** where competing Maharajas raided temples in the > neighboring > kingdom and stole a murti (consecrated statue) which was considered to be > endowed with powerful attributes. Then, bringing it back to his own > kingdom, > the king erected a new and more fabulous temple for the murti. This type > of > vandalism is a very different case, the murti was removed as a trophy not > as > an unholy thing to be desecrated. In the accounts that I had heard, the > king > who had looted the temple of his adversary did not throw the captured > statue > in the roadway or bury it into the staircase of a religious structure in > his > kingdom to be trod upon, but, interestingly, he built an even grander > temple > and had it installed with fanfare. Though the actions may have > similarities, > the motivations were very different. * > > *I also suggested that these types of attacks on temples were not > representative of usual practice, but in fact were very much the exception > to the rule. Even after reading the Eaton article, I was not impressed by > the meager evidence. Though the article very few verifiable examples > offered > to substantiate this often-repeated claim that Hindus were just a guilty > as > Muslims for breaking statues and destroying temples. I told suggested to > several Leftist scholars in Indian that they should stop using that tact > about the Hindus destroying temples, because hardly anyone in > **India**really believes them. The > evidence that Hindus were equally culpable for the destruction of temples > and viharas, similar to the large scale destruction of Hindu temples by > the > various Muslim dynasties is simply untenable. Though the Marxist > historians > in **India** use the case of King Harsh in **Kashmir**, it is a rare > historical exception, certainly not proof of a legacy of Hindu-driven > carnage. Yet the historians who make these claims have failed to uncover > any > real evidence to substantiate their theory of Hindu aggression. * > > Let us move on to see what an independent Belgian Indologist Keonraad > Elst has to say about claims made by Romila Thapar about Harsh's > iconoclasm.Thapar's claims seem to have found favour with Shudda for > they fall in line with his pre-determined understanding of Kalhana.* * > > *Kalhana's first-hand testimony:*** > > *Now, let us look into the historical references cited by Romila Thapar. > Of > Banabhatta's Harshacharita, concerning Harsha of Kanauj (r.606-647), I > have > no copy available here, so I will keep that for another paper. Meanwhile, > I > have been able to consult both the Sanskrit original and the English > translation of Kalhana's Rajatarangini, and that source provides a > clinching > testimony.* > > *Harsha or Harshadeva of **Kashmir** (r.1089-1111 ) has been called the > "Nero > of **Kashmir**", and this "because of his cruelty" (S.B. Bhattacherje: > Encyclopaedia of Indian Events and Dates, Sterling Publ., Delhi 1995, > p.A-20). > He is described by Kalhana as having looted and desecrated most Hindu and > Buddhist temples in **Kashmir**, partly through an office which he had > created, viz. the "officer for despoiling god-temples". The general data > on > 11th-century **Kashmir** already militate against treating him as a > typical > Hindu king who did on purely Hindu grounds what Muslim kings also did, > viz. > to destroy the places of worship of rival religions. For, **Kashmir** had > already been occupied by Masud Ghaznavi, son of Mahmud, in 1034, and > Turkish > troops were a permanent presence as mercenaries to the king.* > > *Harsha was a fellow-traveller: not yet a full convert to Islam (he still > ate pork, as per Rajatarangini 7:1149), but quite adapted to the Islamic > ways, for "he ever fostered with money the Turks, who were his centurions" > (7:1149). There was nothing Hindu about his iconoclasm, which targeted > Hindu > temples, as if a Muslim king were to demolish mosques rather than temples. > All temples in his kingdom except four (enumerated in 7:1096-1098, two of > them Buddhist) were damaged. This behaviour was so un-Hindu and so > characteristically Islamic that Kalhana reports: "In the village, the town > or in Srinagara there was not one temple which was not despoiled by the > Turk > king Harsha." (7:1095)* > > *So there you have it: "the Turk king Harsha". Far from representing a > separate Hindu tradition of iconoclasm, Harsha of **Kashmir** was a > somewhat > peculiar (viz. fellow-traveller) representative of the Islamic tradition > of > iconoclasm. Like Mahmud Ghaznavi and Aurangzeb, he despoiled and looted > Hindu shrines, not non-Hindu ones. Influenced by the Muslims in his > employ, > he behaved like a Muslim.* > > *And this is said explicitly in the text which Romila Thapar cites as > proving the existence of Hindu iconoclasm. If she herself has read it at > all, she must be knowing that it doesn't support the claim she is making. > Either she has just been bluffing, writing lies about Kalhana's testimony > in > the hope that her readers would be too inert to check the source. Or she > simply hasn't read Kalhana's text in the first place. Either way, she has > been caught in the act of making false claims about Kalhana's testimony > even > while denouncing others for not having checked with Kalhana. * > > *A.L.Basham* > > Thankfully I did get to read Basham's article titled*"Harsha of > **Kashmir**and the Iconoclast Ascetics" > * > > Basham writes and I quote"The dissolute king Harsha or Harshadeva(AD > 1089-1101),when in financial straits,was advised by his evil counseller > Lotsdhara to restore his fortunes by looting the temples and melting down > the images of the gods" > > It is evident from the sentence that it was financial problems (due to > various vices) that prompted him to resort to doing what he did. > > Although Basham contradicts himself later in the same article by saying > that > the motive could not be financial alone but he attributes it to King > enjoying acts of heresy.He even contradicts Aurel Stein's explanation that > King had been under the influence of turuska's or (Muslims or outsiders) > who > in this case happened to be Muslims. > Even if we accept his explanation, there is nothing to prove that he > destroyed temples to promote his faith or ideology (Hinduism) while the > contrary can be proved by the following verse from Kalhana's Rajatarangni > Book 7 verse 1095 > > *"In the village, the town or in Srinagara there was not one temple which > was not despoiled by the Turk king Harsha." * > > Kalhana calling him a turk (which was a synonym for > Muslim/outsider/foreigner in Kalhana's vocabulary.At many places Kalhana > uses the term turuska's to describe Muslims.We will discuss the word > Turuska > in detail when we analyse Shudda's references to Rajatarangni. > > Although I do not completely agree with either Basham or Keonard Elst,the > reasons for which are the following. > > 1.Koenard Elst has got it wrong that Kashmir was conquered by Masud of > Ghaznvi in 1034.There are no direct/indirect references or credible > sources > of history to prove that fact.I agree with Shudda when he says that > Islamic > rule was still some two centuries away. > > 2.Basham's assertion that we should look to Ajivikas as Harsh's source of > his iconoclasm also seems to be a far fetched argument.Shudda himself > concludes his argument by stating the following"Basham's argument,albeit > speculative,is less reliant on conjecture than the automatic > identification > of Turuska with Muslim that bedevils the other efforts to wrestle with the > complexity of his reign that I have referred to above" > > Irrespective of the arguments set forth by Romila Thapar,Basham,Elst and > others it is conclusively proved in case of Harsha that although he did > destroy temples and Viharas both but the reason was not to promote > Hinduism > or to subjugate Buddhism.What however can be argued is that he may be > doing > at the behest of whom Kalhana calls Turks(outsiders/foreigners who were > Muslims in this case) what later Muslim kings did.ie.Try and Destroy the > very root of Hinduism in Sarada Desha. > > > -- > Rashneek Kher > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > Search. > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From patrice at xs4all.nl Thu Jan 10 15:25:21 2008 From: patrice at xs4all.nl (Patrice Riemens) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:55:21 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Top international blogger of India repute gets heart attack; blogging blamed :) In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70801090313t5583eb19u44f4eeabdeb2f3cf@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30801080133y68eb3a6do9d507d1accbfea60@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70801082303m78b2a074i5684fd1db4a0d2f8@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30801082318h322f337do747257a970cdfc58@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70801090041s61ca6fdcq1b8163ade0bb6b23@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30801090135w5c89e286t2d5c05f393b5284a@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70801090313t5583eb19u44f4eeabdeb2f3cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080110095521.GA42251@xs4all.nl> One of the passages that stroke (!) me most in Manuel Castells' trilogy about the Information Society was, in the first volume (if I remember correctly) his apposition of "the Self and the Net". There has always been dangers that one particular occupation becomes obsessive and claims too much, and in the end, the life, of the person - art has a bad reputation in this respect. But the Net can turn into a major threat to a person's well-beeing as well. May be the French dictum (about money) is appropriate: take it as a good servant, since it is a very bad master. Cheers, blessed 2008 to all, patrizio and Diiiinooos! From apnawritings at yahoo.co.in Thu Jan 10 16:45:10 2008 From: apnawritings at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:15:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Human rights: Indifferent to suffering? Message-ID: <82161.81474.qm@web8512.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Readers, I'm reposting this piece again since I've been trying since yesterday but this post hasn't gone through except an empty Forward; apologies. ____________ This might be called conversation 3 which I am pursuing in response to a question put by Monica Narula on Dec. 7 at the SARAI-CSDS IF Coference. I’ve been pursuing ( with others) on the list -- reaction to Mahmood Faruqui, Shuddhabrata and Aditi Saraf. Next will come Shri Ravi Kant and priyo Jeebesh Bagchi. It is clear by now that dialogue is our best dope. For me at least I can confess that the moment I talk to or when am questioned by sincere and competent people, later I suffer from --what Sadan has called a ‘critical nostalgia’ ( for example, about the points not pursued). All these efforts should be seen in that light and empathised. Apologies if you know all these arguments already; take it as my learning. Now Monica Narula did put a question mark against my description of pain as personal and invoked the agenda of human rights. By this I’m willing to understand she did not throw in the caveat of pain becoming public but the universal and moral question of rights--- which was interesting and original in a very different manner; I’ll try to tell you how. Against Wittgenstein’s description of pain as private, my correction was—if pain is unknown ( you don’t know whether I’m in pain or not etc), pain is personal and not private since I may invite publicity and thus if I disclose pain ( ritually or really), it will not remain private anymore. I think Monica is not disputing this. What she is asking is, how then human rights will deal with this question of uncertainty unless there is something stable to reckon with; she rightly invoked the taxonomy of suffering. In today’s world ( with a global warNing resounding everywhere), ‘social suffering’ is an accepted and a necessary jargon. Now, how does human rights then deal with suffering ? The answer I gave then -- dealt with how pain could be feigned etc. and suffering could be forged in terms of the Austinian speech act theory debate between Derrida and Searle etc. Further I had argued the ethical status of human rights as moral rights which helped me since my paradigmatic examples –love and friendship ---where in the absence of operative legal rights, jilted lovers or friends could claim a moral right not to be betrayed or deceived. ( And the recent incident at Santiniketan is a troubling case in point.) This is all ok but having given it a further thought, today I’ll submit to Monica a peculiar inference: Human rights is indifferent to suffering. This follows from the naturalistic basis and its roots in the natural law tradition ( human rights are claimed by the benefit of naturally being human) to which I had made a passing reference that day. Now let me get on with that a bit in this direction. So far suffering is concerned, one of the primary theorists as you all might be knowing was Jeremy Bentham ( that utilitarian and legal philosopher) –who was at the same time furious about natural law claims and allegories. Here he was speaking about misery as a virtue in the case of asceticism. While discussing asceticism (though as a principle of government) he makes an interesting point on this subject : “Whatever merit a man may have thought there would be in making himself miserable, no such notion seems ever to have occurred to any of them, that it may be a merit, much less a duty, to make others miserable: although it should seem, that if a certain quantity of misery were a thing so desirable, it would not matter much whether it were brought by each man upon himself, or by one man upon another” (Bentham, Jeremy. 2004. Introduction to the Principles of Morals and Legislation. Delhi :Universal Law Publishing Co. Pvt. Ltd , p.11). Displace this ‘misery’ argument for suffering since it is close and given by the utilitarian calculus of pain and pleasure, they can even be substituted.The ascetic, the punisher, the sadist or the masochist --all suffer or make other people suffer because of the intrinsic merits of suffering—people are redeemed or rescued, coerced and corrected and such others. Then suffering as such is not a signifier that ought to attract human rights; suffering has positive and even pleasurable duties it seems. Now, if this is so, then human rights and suffering have to relate to each other in a different manner. This it does by striking an attitude : indifference. How? To this end I had just hinted in my deliberation that day, but could not give the conclusion it deserved. Today I shall give it; it is simple : if I suffer I have human rights, if I don’t, still I have human rights; if I make other people suffer, I have human rights, if I enjoy suffering, I have them intact. One for all and all for one. From this, One can justly infer, human rights is thus indifferent to suffering. Indifferent because of a structural indispensability: to deal with the intense poly-plurality, unknown indeterminacy of the signifier called suffering. May I now, with the permission of Monica and all, claim suffering to be personal too? Yours in discourse and debt Arnab Forgot the famous last words? Access your message archive online at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php From apnawritings at yahoo.co.in Thu Jan 10 16:38:50 2008 From: apnawritings at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:08:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Ritwik and Ricoeur In-Reply-To: <14cbbb9a0801092150s10451c6ap251c04e8a247eab1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <517728.37584.qm@web8504.mail.in.yahoo.com> When Ritwik Ghatak does theory he is Ritwik Bhattacharya.----Arnab Chatterjee. So RgB, Welcome again, now things are becoming rigorous--as they say. Now, in 1998 I remember I studied in detail what is known as the philosophy of time and thanks that those dusty files, old notes ( Foucault had those of Heidegger, tomes of them--he used to say)have to be brought again and used. Are you ready? We shall debate this point too. But two requests my dear RgB, one, it would be convenient if your argument is a bit more demonstrative than a cryptic, capsule statement;two, could you tell me a bit about those who dealt with the hermeneutic phenomenology of the Ricoeurian mode and addressed historical time, how much of disciplinary archival work they did--this is the ongoing debate. Hopefully you will respond. ha ha arnab da --- ritwik bhattacharyya <0supplement at gmail.com> wrote: > Should one continue to justify or validate a > > *Positivist de-temporality* in history as a > *discipline*? > > > > It is an important question to ask as some would say > that history has been > received in the mode of positivist de-temporality > thanks to a specific > reading that finds it as such. Historical Time > itself is a matter of debate > and elucidation that cannot be reduced to the > discussion of a positivist de- > temporality. If however one attempts to argue that > history is indeed about > fostering positive de-temporality through an > academic discipline, one cannot > bypass the debate concerning historical time as has > been discussed in detail > in recent works like Paul Ricouer's *Time and > Narrative* (3 Volumes). This > is just to remind us of the formidable contenders we > would face if we chose > to hold on to the Positivist de-temporality > argument. > > > Can one address questions of archive without > first addressing questions of *history as a > discipline*? > > > > Let's admit that while we discuss archives we can't > do that disregarding > archive's role as an equipment within the > historiographic operation. Thus > without addressing the problem of history as a > discourse and the conventions > of how it operates , we would not make an > interesting argument, especially > in view of the question posed by Arnab['*I'm trying* > *to get at some form of > history or critical/effective history or genealogy > which can do > without 'archives' ( used in the disciplinary sense > of history, ok?']*. Even > in generic terms a discussion of archive without > discussing its > equipmentality within the hegemonic discourse of > history would leave many > questions unanswered and worse still, many questions > unposed. > > > > Trying to move *away from Foucault (without loosing > him)*? > > > > *Subjectivity is crucial*. But simply moving away > from Foucault or > discussing a text like Agamben's *Remnants of > Auchwitz* will not help us to > understand why it is crucial in Foucault. And since > Arnab had posed the > initial question about the relationship between > archive and a genealogical > enterprise we might just stick on to Foucault 'the > happy positivist' for a > while. We might look into Archaeology and find out > what is being said about > 'subjectivation' there. . *But archive, isn't it > more close to the > Foucauldian provenance of governmentality than > subjectivity as a primary > first?* > > Governmentality, we might venture to say, is also > about subject formation > from above( if the problem, for some reason ,is > about the term ' > subjectivity', let me plead for its provisional > usage here). It would thus > be interesting too see why for Foucault, who wants > to contest the > traditional histpriography etc. Archive remains a > valued term, even as it is > being used in a modified sense. This might give us > an initial foothold. > > > > Thanks > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Thu Jan 10 21:08:05 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:38:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <967438.77509.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <12247.1376.qm@web45512.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> What to say on this? A Gem. Let me write some thing more by pinpointing 1) Partha is here to just condemn Dhatri. To avoid this accusation slowly turned like this I feel(don't know exactly right or wrong). Partha is educated and working in TECHNOLOGY industry as a top-notch professional with relatives spread across India starting from Present Bangladesh,to Punjab,Kashmir,Gujarat,Maharashtra. 2) A Temple is a temple under a small roof or in a huge big mahal which is constructed by individuals or kings. The DEITY can be a SWAYAMBHU or placed upon a YANTRA with appropriate method. The chanting MANTRA will be the same everywhere if the worship is in USA/UK/AUSTRALIA/SINGAPORE/INDIA anywhere or if it is in your home. One must have to read the same SANKALP. Irrespective of place and position holding in society, there are homes where people could not take food without offering it to deity. The place got a name with the deity and the underlying Yantra with a corresponding Mantra related to that Yantra. Just imagine on a particular month(fall under seasons),particular day like Monday being Chaviti, if one of the practitioner of the SANKALP chant Sunday/Tuesday with Tadiya/Panchami the impact is what. Scientific way to say that the corresponding Mantra is tuned to that Yantra and the chanting will create Power. The sacrifice is simply useless and create vulnerable impacts. Hence urban or rural the motive is same but the believers slightly vary. To support this let me bring the incidents that just happened in 3 urban temples. 1) Actress Jayamala visited Ayyappa temple and the later incidents 2) Actress Meerajasmin visited a urban temple and the later incidents 3) Grand son of Vayalar Ravi(Union Minister) Visiting the urban temple and later incidents. http://www.rediff.com/news/2006/jul/01temple.htm http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/jun/04inter1.htm All the above people are MODERN/HI-TECH/ and temple I am quoting are age old world famous urban temples. Olden days people used to believe that construction of temples, digging of wells/ponds/lakes,planting trees are good work so that beneficiary will be the ultimate society. 1) If it is a temple a) People can gather for festivals b) can rest on the cool floor peacefully(travelers or ) 2) If it is a well/pond/lake a) people can get the drinking water b) water for irrigation 3) If it is a tree a) People like you can eat the fruits b) People can sleep under a banion tree on the raw floor painlessly (under sun or moon light ...) c) Can benefit the so called ecological balance in terms of birds,creatures,insects whatever and of course pollution for now a days. (I hope most of the readers would have gone through their text books by reading the fact that after the great kalinga war how the Emperor Ashoka changed and planted trees besides roads, dug wells/ponds/lakes) --Modern days Keep aside the donations coming out to charities genuinely in the forms of gifts,WILLS gem and jewelry. But let me bring 2 points(felt they are doing the same work) 1) Chandrababu Naidu donated 50 lakh rupees to Azmeer darga 2) Amitabachan,Amar Singh,Anil Ambani donated 50lakh each to Tirumala Balaji Don't these people know about partha said things (development) and prone to TECHNOLOGY Usage(Hi-tech)? chanchal malviya wrote: Dear Partha, You feel my argument is extremely unfounded. But I have gained praise from societies where I work on philosophies that you have categorized old. I will update you for few instances: 1. Sex Education: I along with few more Intellectuals called a conference with some renowned doctors of Pune. And I put a simple question before the medical science: - Is a child who is 10 or 12 years of age, physically ready to do sex? - Upon educating them on Sex, will they not open out on this topic? - Once perception is clear, will not action follow perception? - If a child practices sex (using condoms), will he not be impacted of various health hazards like Infertility, weaking Immune System being primary in them? - Since, we are not teaching our child to hold on their curiosity on sex, are we not weakening their mind by converting that curiosity to temptations and provocation? - Will not this weakening mind result in Hypertention, Migrane, etc. to follow up? - A BIG QUESTION - How do you want to solve AIDS? - By allowing people to go into extra marital and pre marital affairs with Condoms OR you don't want them to do for healthy social living? You know what the doctors had to say - they simply agreed and asked, what should be the option then as the children are getting exposed to it through various media. And I suggested them - Teach them Yoga and Meditation [this will strengthen their mind and body], allow them to respect teachers and elders [They will not open out for sex with fear], keep a eye on them and play your parents' responsibility to ensure that they are not gone from your hands. I don't know if this is Scrap or Old for you - May be. 2. I have gone and talked with Village people who have seen Caste practice more then we urban people. I asked them few questions: - Do you know the Saints of India (Asaram Bapuji, Murari Bapu, Shri Shri Ravi Shankerji, etc.) and many of them knew about them. And I followed up with a question - Do you all know to which caste they were born into? - Do you know what is their actual names and why they changed their name? - When you go to Temple, do you find the practice of Pandits asking your Caste and then allowing you to enter the Temple? And they were interested that all their perception on Brahmins were wrong. Saints who go to Himalaya for Vedic learning undergo a process of nomenclature upon completion of study so that people do not know them as Brahmins due to birth, but Brahminism is about attaining to the Vedic knowledge - any birth, doesn't matter. Even today this is practiced. 'Brahmins', 'Kshatriya', 'Vaishya' and 'Shudra' are Sanskrit names. It is just a matter of fact that Mughals and British invaded us. Had we also done the same, we would have categorized 'Teachers', 'Soldiers', 'Businessmen' and 'Workers' as caste system of western life style. You see, they are simply nomenclatures in the world of Work. In fact, till Prithviraj Chauhan, we never knew anything about religion, not even Hinduism. And villagers agreed to this. I don't know Partha do not agree to this - he wants reservation as he might be benefiting from it - I don't know. I believing in uplifting the morals of the people of India through their ownership into what they tend to do, not through the carrot of reservation. 3. Foriegn Investments: Parthaji cannot understand a simple thing - Why are investors interested to take away farmer's land [categorically Hindus]. The whole of this nation's first demand is food that depends on the farmers. And now the trend is buy the farming land and convert that to Muslim occupation. Dear friend, try to do the same in any other country - and you will realize what value you hold for this nation. - Why shall we allow Muslim intruders to come and sit on us? - If Builders are doing that, at least they are not outsiders to take over our nation. We can develop strategies to counter that and it would be internal to the nation. Any strategy to counter Foreign Investment upon late realization of errors would bring bad fame to the nation in Inernational Market. The best thing is to check it before the error is committed. - Parthaji is unable to see the Hindu killings in their own nation, what to say about foreign nations. He is unable to see the demand of new Currency in Kashmir cannot take place unless the state is informally segregated from the nation. He is unable to see that no Hindus are returning back to Kahsmir, he feels so though - how I don't know. Dear Parthaji, talk to Kashmiris who have left Kashmir. They will tell you how their women were dragged out of Trucks when they were migrating from their, and they could not do anything against the Swords and gunds pointing at them by common muslim population there. Ask them, how the whole mass used to get massacred their and there was nearly no news coverage for that. You are outdated Mr. Partha - you don't see the History, and you don't know that is planned for future. You are living in the shell created by Congress - the false and complicated shell of Secularism. 4. Charas Ganja are imported by India from Pakistan [that also smuggled and earned value for Kashmiri Muslims] is a fact. You don't know, I have pity for that. And India exports food items in return - great policy. Kill your population and propogate your enemies population. I fear to say them enemy because they have not considered us friends since thousands of years. Some of them are good, and I appreciate them. But I am yet to see, Muslims coming on road to protest Terrorism. I am yet to see, Muslims coming on road with slogans of Jai Hind and Vande Matram. I am yet to see, Muslims coming on road and celebrating India's victory over Pakistan. I am yet to see, Muslims converting to Hindu upon marriage with a Hindu. I am yet to see, Muslims wishing another Muslim 'Happy Diwali' for their brotherhood of Hindus. Bachpan se suna hai, Hindu Muslim Bhai Bhai - Arey mere Bhai, jab Tune mere Mai ko kaat ke khai, to kaisa bhai. I am yet to see, Muslims saying that they would not kill cows because Hindus worship them. HOW WILL THE BROTHERHOOD GROW? Even the most extremist of HIndus are not fundamental, because Hinduism is not a religion - it is a way of life - and hence we do not find any so called religious book of Hindu containing even the word Hindu. There is no word like Caste or Jati - Hindus are true humans, fighting for humanity - and I am among one of them. Best regards, ----- Original Message ---- From: Partha Dasgupta To: Pawan Durani Cc: sarai list Sent: Friday, January 4, 2008 9:50:18 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Hi Pawan, Like many others, had got unsubscribed from Sarai, so just went ahead and re-subscribed, and got tons of mail a few days late - which was quite interesting as I got to see viewpoints and counterpoints without reacting. Anyhow, to get to the point I was going to make - I'm sure you'll agree with me that Chanchal's argument was extremely unfounded in fact based on some dreamlike vision she has of 'Hinduism'. 1. Sex education It is a well known fact that prudism in the form of the insistence of blouses (which were unknown in rural Bengal from my childhood) or pants instead of lungi's and dhoti's were a direct influence of the British hangover for what they considered 'proper'. Go through ancient Indian art, and there are countless instances that will prove this to you. 2. Reservations Per se, for India as to move forward - it has to move forward as a whole from the villages to the towns to the cities. Also, it is a known fact that 'lower castes' are still dominated in areas and that is accepted. Hindu as I may be from birth, I refuse to agree with anyone who may claim that s/he is higher (or lower) than me because of their ancestral name. I'm sure you'll agree that just because some one is born a Brahmin does not denote that they are automatically superhumans endowed with special powers. Similarly, just because someone is a Dalit does not mean that they are mentally or physically incapable. And I have personally met people at all levels who are capable (and incapable) irrespective of caste. The ex-King of Nepal is a prime example of a bad high caste ruler. Then if capable 'Lower Castes' have been kept down, doesn't the Indian Nation need them to be empowered so that India can achieve it's greatness? 3. Foreign Investments The investments may be from 'Islamic States' or Indian Muslims. The bigger evil (though this is a personal opinion) is the people in India who cheat the state and the law of this land and misuse public money / property - from Nandigram to the Registrar of Societies in Delhi who fleeced the nation. Foreign money is subject to many regulations and checks - and if there is a misuse, we should look at catching the people who are supposed to administrate it for public good. 4. Charas, Ganja & Afeem were known as 'Nawabi Showk' well before the British came into India. Charas and Ganja especially are copiously consumed on Shiv Ratri in India. Weakness or addiction has nothing to do with religion, caste or gender - it is purely a personal problem that can afflict anyone. I could go on and on about the misinformed statements of Chanchal, which I'm sure you would also agree are completely skewed. However, as a Hindu (atleast notionally - since I do not believe that any Brahmin has the right to stand between God and me) I do have a problem with someone telling me what I should believe about how a Hindu should believe / behave / think. As a thinking individual and an adult, it is my right to follow my personal belief - all the more so when faced with an incoherent, immature and totally unfounded argument that you seem to agree with (and I say 'seem to agree with' since you answer Ahimoolam's irritation with bland statements that signify unless we subscribe to Chanchal's rant we are 'anti Hindu') Rgds, Partha ........................... On Jan 3, 2008 10:12 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Hello Adhimoolan , > > > > I forgot that this Forum was supposed to be anti Hindu and there are many > who have deviated. Please dont write anything pro hindu . > > > > It hurts > > > > God Bless.... > > > > Pawan > > > > On 12/26/07, Vetrivel Adhimoolam wrote: > > > I realized the need for applying junk e-mail filter. It's amazing that > > a forum like this gets easily highjacked by the Hindu fundamentalist forces. > > The return of barbarism. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > *From:* chanchal malviya > > > > *To:* Vedavati Jogi ; reader-list at sarai.net > > > > *Cc:* sudhakar.koppu at gmail.com > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:48 AM > > > > *Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > There are huge breaking force acting on our Nation > > 1. With the influence of foreigh missionnaries and investors, Science is > > taking tool to introduce concepts like Sex Education in Children - the > > target is next generation should be destroyed. Current generation has > > already met the target of not respecting the nation and running heedlessly > > towards whatever they like. they cannot withstand pressure, nor are the > > brave enough to take bold decisions. they want money and they want wine and > > girls around in the name freedom. > > > > 2. Govt. policies like Reservations are breaking the nation to pieces, > > separating people from people. > > 3. Chrisitian missionnaries are converting the Hindus to Christians at a > > ver fast pace > > 4. Muslims are being intruded (from Bangladesh in particular) in all > > parts, increasing their population so as to become the majority and declare > > the nation as Islamic state > > 5. Foreign investments from Islamic state are continuously buying lands > > through local Muslims > > 6. Charas, Ganja, Afeem, other drugs along with Arms and Ammunitions are > > being continuously coming across Pakistan and Bangladesh borders. Arms are > > provided to Islamic groups and Naxals. Drugs are provided to sex educated > > children of careless parents. > > 7. Muslims are in target of Islamic conversions, continuously marrying > > Hindus girls - Hindus girls are not able to understand that it is they who > > are converted to Islam and the boy is never accepting Hinduism - Why? If it > > was love, we would have found conversions in this field happening in both > > area. > > 8. Indian intellectuals are continuously exported to Foreign countries > > (IIT, IIM, and all good institute students), ensuring that they do not work > > for India > > 9. Export of our Food Items is increasing when prices are hiking in our > > own country. > > 10. Poverty now seem to be the property of minority alone - when > > actually, no minority is under poverty - most of them are on target to > > achieve this nation as a group. > > > > There are so many things happening in this nation from years. And now > > there is only one agenda - kill Hinduism, ask the Youth to be secular and > > attack Hinduism - because Hindus destroyed is India taken over. > > > > Open your eyes, O Hindus - this is not a religion when you talk > > Hinduism. It is the only philosophy that is humanity. What you see as > > differences are actually political move to break the nation apart. Do not > > get moved by such irrationality. have the gut to see beyond the screen, have > > the intelligence to understand beyond what is highlighted in news. > > > > Jai Hind, > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:19:31 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > what is meant by 'your beloved' country? > > don't you stay in this country? > > is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? > > are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com> To: > > vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; > > reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> Date: > > Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why Pakistan? People have migrated to > > African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American > > countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and corners > > of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all Muslims? If > > you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a second > > thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority of > > those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the > > other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were > > > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che> > > Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and > > > Muslims had > > no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena for > > their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > sentiments. How > > do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai? Do > > they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? Those who you > > think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood just > > for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I > > support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard core > > hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath yatra > > and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should be > > the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to power? > > Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership of > > which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya > > Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > > > To: < bawazainab79 at gmail.com>; < > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>; > < reader-list at sarai.net>> Sent: Tuesday, > > December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > > > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find > > india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan.> >> > > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > > > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt > > karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning this country on > > religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal > > rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > > > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram > > temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if you too > > are the sons of this soil, > > why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor? > > babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this earth has > > ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it very well that > > madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are > > trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from > > sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your chidren > > to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere because > > they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for > > reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then > > that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform > > civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields > > in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never > > faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this > > 'false > > > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > > > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been > > taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am > > sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take > > action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to > > garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims > > but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat > > so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is > > politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & > > seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if > > not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation > > building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try > > to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > Date: > > Tue, 25 Dec > > 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > > > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > ; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati,> > When you say "modi does not > > 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including > > bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, > > hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former > > because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway." I don't > > think there are any sentiments left after > > brutal rape, violence and > > torture. When the soul is killed and when you > > have to live in duress > > under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that you 'are > > Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary identity or not), > > you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left? What do you have to === message truncated === --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 09:24:03 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:24:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <967438.77509.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <967438.77509.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32144e990801101954k6a7ba80eib3d61276d20cd9df@mail.gmail.com> Dear Chanchal, 1. On the issue of Sex Eductaion. Let us look at two different scenario's. a) The theoretical pristine world where every child is pure and unknowing of anything to do with sex till they attain puberty. At that age someone will have to explain about 'birds and bees'. The point is that at some age even when the child is completely protected (and which I believe is not possible in Delhi at least unless you keep the child locked up) you will have to educate the child about sex. b) The way things are (in Delhi, at least, where I live) that as I'm at a traffic light waiting o even walking with my children in a market on a weekend and somebody uses a swear word that refers to a sexual act. Unfortunately in Delhi these words seem to be used as punctiation marks. My children do ask what these words mean. I have not had a TV at home since my children were born since most of the programs are inappropriate but I can not stop them from living in the Delhi or blinker them - if I did, I would be crippling them as they would someday have to come out and deal with the world, and that day they would be lost. It's like allowing my daughter and son to ride cycles without trainer wheels. Yes, it hurts me when they fall and scrape their knees but I have to be able to let go. Can I stop them from knowing about sex in school or what they whisper amongst friends? Not possible. However, as a father I can ensure that at least whatever knowledge they have is not incorrect. 2. On caste. Every other day we hear of Dalits being tortured or not allowed in temples. That is the face of caste practices that I am against. Just as a someone with a crippled leg can not win a race against someone who's got two properly functional legs; someone who for generations has had no education needs help to compete against people who for generations have had access to education and therefore can support their children better in learning. My personal benefit from reservation? Yes, I do and I'm proud of it. Every person who makes a step forward through education or jobs is one more Indian who's taking India one more step forward - from the peon who was in my office and completed his schooling in the National Opening School to move away for a better job to however many more who break free from the shackles of caste and poverty to rise above. Dear Chanchal, maybe mine is a simplistic point of view but I firmly believe that for India to move ahead and become a 'superpower', each and every Indian has to be empowered irrespective of caste, religion or gender. Else there will always be the pockets of the 'left out' much like the hidden 'Red Indian Reservations' in the US. 3. Foreign Investment. From World Bank to Japan, we have had investments that helped build roads, ports - or even the Narmada dam. Have they all been people who came to 'steal'? No. All i'm saying is drop the blind hate and look at the merits of each case irrespective of where it came from - just as you talked of monitoring Indian builders. 4. On the 'Muslim' issue. There are a number of points that have got mixed in here. a) 'Muslim Invaders' - After these centuries / decades can you turn around and define that Mr A is a 'invader' and Mr B is a convert? Not possible. Whoever is here today is an Indian and has as much of a right to be in India as you or I. b) The people I know have protested against terrorist acts (Muslims, Christians and otherwise). Just because one terrorist is a Muslim (or a Sikh, for that matter as was captured a few days back) does not make all Muslims or Sikhs terrorists. If you go to a doctor or a teacher, do you go to them because they are good in their respective profession or because of their religion / caste? It's like a tribe that's branded as theives - if one or two of them committed a robbery does that make the entire tribe theives. Do all Hindu's become wife killers because some Hindu killed his wife in Delhi a short while back. This generic branding of people is dangerous and cannot be true. Sure, what you say may apply to some - as in some terrorists are Muslims or Sikhs, but then the point is that they are terrorists who happen to be of a certain religion or place. That's as insane as saying all Kashmiri's or Pkistani's are terrorists just because some people from these places are terrorists!! 5. As for Charas, etc. In my school days used to visit Himachal fairly often, and have seen it growing wild and being sold by the local baba's there. Other than Pakistan and Afghanistan, India is also know for these drugs. Rgds, Partha .................................................. On Jan 10, 2008 11:32 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: > Dear Partha, > > You feel my argument is extremely unfounded. But I have gained praise from > societies where I work on philosophies that you have categorized old. I will > update you for few instances: > > 1. Sex Education: I along with few more Intellectuals called a conference > with some renowned doctors of Pune. And I put a simple question before the > medical science: > - Is a child who is 10 or 12 years of age, physically ready to do sex? > - Upon educating them on Sex, will they not open out on this topic? > - Once perception is clear, will not action follow perception? > - If a child practices sex (using condoms), will he not be impacted of > various health hazards like Infertility, weaking Immune System being primary > in them? > - Since, we are not teaching our child to hold on their curiosity on > sex, are we not weakening their mind by converting that curiosity to > temptations and provocation? > - Will not this weakening mind result in Hypertention, Migrane, etc. > to follow up? > - A BIG QUESTION - How do you want to solve AIDS? - By allowing people > to go into extra marital and pre marital affairs with Condoms OR you don't > want them to do for healthy social living? > > You know what the doctors had to say - they simply agreed and asked, what > should be the option then as the children are getting exposed to it through > various media. > > And I suggested them - Teach them Yoga and Meditation [this will > strengthen their mind and body], allow them to respect teachers and elders > [They will not open out for sex with fear], keep a eye on them and play your > parents' responsibility to ensure that they are not gone from your hands. > > I don't know if this is Scrap or Old for you - May be. > > 2. I have gone and talked with Village people who have seen Caste practice > more then we urban people. I asked them few questions: > - Do you know the Saints of India (Asaram Bapuji, Murari Bapu, Shri > Shri Ravi Shankerji, etc.) and many of them knew about them. And I followed > up with a question - Do you all know to which caste they were born into? > - Do you know what is their actual names and why they changed their > name? > - When you go to Temple, do you find the practice of Pandits asking > your Caste and then allowing you to enter the Temple? > And they were interested that all their perception on Brahmins were > wrong. Saints who go to Himalaya for Vedic learning undergo a process of > nomenclature upon completion of study so that people do not know them as > Brahmins due to birth, but Brahminism is about attaining to the Vedic > knowledge - any birth, doesn't matter. Even today this is practiced. > > 'Brahmins', 'Kshatriya', 'Vaishya' and 'Shudra' are Sanskrit names. It is > just a matter of fact that Mughals and British invaded us. Had we also done > the same, we would have categorized 'Teachers', 'Soldiers', 'Businessmen' > and 'Workers' as caste system of western life style. You see, they are > simply nomenclatures in the world of Work. In fact, till Prithviraj Chauhan, > we never knew anything about religion, not even Hinduism. > > And villagers agreed to this. I don't know Partha do not agree to this - > he wants reservation as he might be benefiting from it - I don't know. I > believing in uplifting the morals of the people of India through their > ownership into what they tend to do, not through the carrot of reservation. > > 3. Foriegn Investments: Parthaji cannot understand a simple thing - Why > are investors interested to take away farmer's land [categorically Hindus]. > The whole of this nation's first demand is food that depends on the farmers. > And now the trend is buy the farming land and convert that to Muslim > occupation. Dear friend, try to do the same in any other country - and you > will realize what value you hold for this nation. > - Why shall we allow Muslim intruders to come and sit on us? > - If Builders are doing that, at least they are not outsiders to take > over our nation. We can develop strategies to counter that and it would be > internal to the nation. Any strategy to counter Foreign Investment upon late > realization of errors would bring bad fame to the nation in Inernational > Market. The best thing is to check it before the error is committed. > - Parthaji is unable to see the Hindu killings in their own nation, > what to say about foreign nations. He is unable to see the demand of new > Currency in Kashmir cannot take place unless the state is informally > segregated from the nation. He is unable to see that no Hindus are returning > back to Kahsmir, he feels so though - how I don't know. > Dear Parthaji, talk to Kashmiris who have left Kashmir. They will tell you > how their women were dragged out of Trucks when they were migrating from > their, and they could not do anything against the Swords and gunds pointing > at them by common muslim population there. Ask them, how the whole mass used > to get massacred their and there was nearly no news coverage for that. You > are outdated Mr. Partha - you don't see the History, and you don't know that > is planned for future. You are living in the shell created by Congress - the > false and complicated shell of Secularism. > > 4. Charas Ganja are imported by India from Pakistan [that also smuggled > and earned value for Kashmiri Muslims] is a fact. You don't know, I have > pity for that. And India exports food items in return - great policy. Kill > your population and propogate your enemies population. I fear to say them > enemy because they have not considered us friends since thousands of years. > Some of them are good, and I appreciate them. > > But I am yet to see, Muslims coming on road to protest Terrorism. > I am yet to see, Muslims coming on road with slogans of Jai Hind and Vande > Matram. > I am yet to see, Muslims coming on road and celebrating India's victory > over Pakistan. > I am yet to see, Muslims converting to Hindu upon marriage with a Hindu. > I am yet to see, Muslims wishing another Muslim 'Happy Diwali' for their > brotherhood of Hindus. > > Bachpan se suna hai, Hindu Muslim Bhai Bhai - Arey mere Bhai, jab Tune > mere Mai ko kaat ke khai, to kaisa bhai. > > I am yet to see, Muslims saying that they would not kill cows because > Hindus worship them. > > HOW WILL THE BROTHERHOOD GROW? Even the most extremist of HIndus are not > fundamental, because Hinduism is not a religion - it is a way of life - and > hence we do not find any so called religious book of Hindu containing even > the word Hindu. There is no word like Caste or Jati - Hindus are true > humans, fighting for humanity - and I am among one of them. > > Best regards, > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Partha Dasgupta > To: Pawan Durani > Cc: sarai list > Sent: Friday, January 4, 2008 9:50:18 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > Hi Pawan, > > Like many others, had got unsubscribed from Sarai, so just went ahead and > re-subscribed, and got tons of mail a few days late - which was quite > interesting as I got to see viewpoints and counterpoints without reacting. > > Anyhow, to get to the point I was going to make - I'm sure you'll agree > with > me that Chanchal's argument was extremely unfounded in fact based on some > dreamlike vision she has of 'Hinduism'. > > 1. Sex education > It is a well known fact that prudism in the form of the insistence of > blouses > (which were unknown in rural Bengal from my childhood) or pants > instead > of lungi's and dhoti's were a direct influence of the British hangover > for what > they considered 'proper'. Go through ancient Indian art, and there are > countless > instances that will prove this to you. > > 2. Reservations > Per se, for India as to move forward - it has to move forward as a > whole from > the villages to the towns to the cities. Also, it is a known fact that > 'lower castes' > are still dominated in areas and that is accepted. Hindu as I may be > from birth, > I refuse to agree with anyone who may claim that s/he is higher (or > lower) than > me because of their ancestral name. I'm sure you'll agree that just > because > some one is born a Brahmin does not denote that they are automatically > superhumans endowed with special powers. Similarly, just because > someone > is a Dalit does not mean that they are mentally or physically > incapable. > And I have personally met people at all levels who are capable (and > incapable) > irrespective of caste. The ex-King of Nepal is a prime example of a > bad > high caste > ruler. Then if capable 'Lower Castes' have been kept down, doesn't the > Indian Nation > need them to be empowered so that India can achieve it's greatness? > > 3. Foreign Investments > The investments may be from 'Islamic States' or Indian Muslims. The > bigger evil > (though this is a personal opinion) is the people in India who cheat > the state and the > law of this land and misuse public money / property - from Nandigram > to > the Registrar > of Societies in Delhi who fleeced the nation. Foreign money is subject > to many > regulations and checks - and if there is a misuse, we should look at > catching the > people who are supposed to administrate it for public good. > > > 4. Charas, Ganja & Afeem were known as 'Nawabi Showk' well before the > British came > into India. Charas and Ganja especially are copiously consumed on Shiv > Ratri in India. > Weakness or addiction has nothing to do with religion, caste or gender > - it is purely > a personal problem that can afflict anyone. > > I could go on and on about the misinformed statements of Chanchal, which > I'm > sure you would also agree are completely skewed. However, as a Hindu > (atleast notionally - since I do not believe that any Brahmin has the > right > to stand between God and me) I do have a problem with someone telling me > what I should believe about how a Hindu should believe / behave / think. > As > a thinking individual and an adult, it is my right to follow my personal > belief - all the more so when faced with an incoherent, immature and > totally > unfounded argument that you seem to agree with (and I say 'seem to agree > with' since you answer Ahimoolam's irritation with bland statements that > signify unless we subscribe to Chanchal's rant we are 'anti Hindu') > > Rgds, Partha > .......................... > > On Jan 3, 2008 10:12 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Hello Adhimoolan , > > > > > > > > I forgot that this Forum was supposed to be anti Hindu and there are > many > > who have deviated. Please dont write anything pro hindu . > > > > > > > > It hurts > > > > > > > > God Bless.... > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > On 12/26/07, Vetrivel Adhimoolam wrote: > > > > > I realized the need for applying junk e-mail filter. It's amazing > that > > > a forum like this gets easily highjacked by the Hindu fundamentalist > forces. > > > The return of barbarism. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > *From:* chanchal malviya > > > > > > *To:* Vedavati Jogi ; reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > *Cc:* sudhakar.koppu at gmail.com > > > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:48 AM > > > > > > *Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > There are huge breaking force acting on our Nation > > > 1. With the influence of foreigh missionnaries and investors, Science > is > > > taking tool to introduce concepts like Sex Education in Children - the > > > target is next generation should be destroyed. Current generation has > > > already met the target of not respecting the nation and running > heedlessly > > > towards whatever they like. they cannot withstand pressure, nor are > the > > > brave enough to take bold decisions. they want money and they want > wine and > > > girls around in the name freedom. > > > > > > 2. Govt. policies like Reservations are breaking the nation to pieces, > > > separating people from people. > > > 3. Chrisitian missionnaries are converting the Hindus to Christians at > a > > > ver fast pace > > > 4. Muslims are being intruded (from Bangladesh in particular) in all > > > parts, increasing their population so as to become the majority and > declare > > > the nation as Islamic state > > > 5. Foreign investments from Islamic state are continuously buying > lands > > > through local Muslims > > > 6. Charas, Ganja, Afeem, other drugs along with Arms and Ammunitions > are > > > being continuously coming across Pakistan and Bangladesh borders. Arms > are > > > provided to Islamic groups and Naxals. Drugs are provided to sex > educated > > > children of careless parents. > > > 7. Muslims are in target of Islamic conversions, continuously marrying > > > Hindus girls - Hindus girls are not able to understand that it is they > who > > > are converted to Islam and the boy is never accepting Hinduism - Why? > If it > > > was love, we would have found conversions in this field happening in > both > > > area. > > > 8. Indian intellectuals are continuously exported to Foreign countries > > > (IIT, IIM, and all good institute students), ensuring that they do not > work > > > for India > > > 9. Export of our Food Items is increasing when prices are hiking in > our > > > own country. > > > 10. Poverty now seem to be the property of minority alone - when > > > actually, no minority is under poverty - most of them are on target to > > > achieve this nation as a group. > > > > > > There are so many things happening in this nation from years. And now > > > there is only one agenda - kill Hinduism, ask the Youth to be secular > and > > > attack Hinduism - because Hindus destroyed is India taken over. > > > > > > Open your eyes, O Hindus - this is not a religion when you talk > > > Hinduism. It is the only philosophy that is humanity. What you see as > > > differences are actually political move to break the nation apart. Do > not > > > get moved by such irrationality. have the gut to see beyond the > screen, have > > > the intelligence to understand beyond what is highlighted in news. > > > > > > Jai Hind, > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:19:31 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > what is meant by 'your beloved' country? > > > don't you stay in this country? > > > is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? > > > are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com> To: > > > vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > ; > > > reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > Date: > > > > Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why Pakistan? People have migrated > to > > > African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American > > > countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and > corners > > > of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all > Muslims? If > > > you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a > second > > > thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority > of > > > those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai.> On > the > > > other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were > > > > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru > che> > > > Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the > day and > > > > Muslims had > > > no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena > for > > > their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > > sentiments. How > > > do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai? > Do > > > they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? Those who > you > > > think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood > just > > > for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I > > > support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard > core > > > hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath > yatra > > > and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should > be > > > the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to > power? > > > Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership > of > > > which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > > Mehta? Maya > > > Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > > > > To: < bawazainab79 at gmail.com>; < > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>; > < reader-list at sarai.net>> Sent: > Tuesday, > > > December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > > > > > > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't > find > > > india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to > pakistan.> >> > > > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > > > > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their > own > > > > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt > > > karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning this > country on > > > religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal > > > rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by > hindus?> >> > > > > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build > ram > > > temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if you > too > > > are the sons of this soil, > > > why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor? > > > babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this earth > has > > > ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it very well that > > > madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are > > > trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims > from > > > sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your > chidren > > > to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere > because > > > they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for > > > reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor > then > > > that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept > uniform > > > civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various > fields > > > in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they > never > > > faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why > this > > > 'false > > > > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > > > > > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has > been > > > taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i > am > > > sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to > take > > > action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do > everything to > > > garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of > muslims > > > but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in > gujrat > > > so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is > > > politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians > & > > > seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr > if > > > not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation > > > building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then > try > > > to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > > Date: > > > Tue, 25 Dec > > > 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > > > > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > > ; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati,> > When you say "modi does > not > > > 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis > (including > > > bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common > muslims, > > > hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former > > > because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway." I > don't > > > think there are any sentiments left after > > brutal rape, violence > and > > > torture. When the soul is killed and when you > > have to live in > duress > > > under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that you > 'are > > > Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary identity or > not), > > > you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left? What do you > have to > > > say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > participated in the 1992-93 > riots > > > in > > > Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken > > > against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra > > > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in > mass > > > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to > be > > > in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed > to be > > > aligned.> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 > AM, > > > Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab, 'india > is > > > a secular country and will remain a secular country > > only because > of > > > majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who > had > > > voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india > after > > > partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread & > butter > > > was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress > too > > > followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave > > > reservations to bc, obcs, by > > > reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs & obcs > > > and divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities from > muslim > > > community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir hussain, > > > shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... all > of > > > them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular among > > > hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > descrimination, > > > indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed > carrot of > > > 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they > can't > > > hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. modi > does not > > > 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis > (including > > > bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common > muslims, > > > hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former > > > because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. this > > > secularism practised by > > > congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus. > > > terrorists are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is > talking > > > about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like > soharabuddin > > > is killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what > about > > > 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter hindus > cannot > > > be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! vedavati> >> > > > >> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > > > electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC : > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> > >> > > > >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus > who are > > > facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > > Narendra > > > Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to > be > > > understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, > when > > > Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. > > > in other words, > > it is humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims has > yet > > > to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass > when > > > there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a > single > > > movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist > attacks...> > > > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a > word > > > > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > Whenever > > > Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > > but not > > > Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > > the > > > world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > > > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that > > > all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. > Whenever > > > Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not > > > religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's > win...> >> > > > > Don't you think > > > that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > > > Hindus... > > > can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > > becoming > > > another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there > is no > > > strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and > voilence...> >> > > > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring > Quran as > > > > > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of > same > > > God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is > happening > > > > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in > the > > > nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into > what > > > they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The > day > > > Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims > would > > > start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim > would > > > join the festivals > > of their brothers... the secularism would meet > > > its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would > not > > > have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > > Muslims > > > have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > > > from > > > their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra > > > Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > ----- Original > Message > > > ----From: Zainab Bawa < bawazainab79 at gmail.com>To< > bawazainab79 at gmail.com%3ETo>: > > > > > TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com>Cc %3ECc>: > > > reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent< > vrjogi at hotmail.com%3ESent>: > > > Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] > gujrat > > > electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am > still a > > > bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as > for > > > formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the > > > country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus > are not > > > Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for > > > my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that > > > Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > > thatModi's > > > victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again, > > > apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On > Dec > > > 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > > > Isn't > > > it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > > RSS > > > members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > > > > > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > Advani> > > > > > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > > > > > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in > Gujarat > > > > > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus > have> > > > > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > May > > > > > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your > mouth> > > > > > next > > > time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > > vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > >> To: ; < tapasrayx at gmail.com>> > > Sent: > > > Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > > > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > > > > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i > hope > > > > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't > always > > > > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world > that > > > > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> > >> > > > > > >> > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > > > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an > > > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the > > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: > > > < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open > discussion > > > > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To > subscribe: > > > > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the > > > > > > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > >_________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city.Critiques& > > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: < > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > Never miss a > > > thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.> >> >> > Live the life in style with > MSN > > > Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!> > > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > Post > > > free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in> > > > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219> > > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > discussion > > > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To > subscribe: > > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in > the > > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > List archive: > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ------------------------------ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 09:36:54 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:36:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-III In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70801100016g1c831af6k23a34d71646b19ee@mail.gmail.com> References: <32144e990801092105x3a2640c1h734620e01c1085f1@mail.gmail.com> <332513.7419.qm@web45515.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70801100016g1c831af6k23a34d71646b19ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990801102006k776cfc2exaaeb212b04e10029@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, If you notice my response, and you have read it, do let me know where I have denigrated Rashneek or claimed that he is incorrect. I have no issue with the 're-created history' or otherwise. What I have objected to is the casting of Muslims as invaders or foreigners. Rgds, Partha ........................... On Jan 10, 2008 1:46 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Hello Partha , > > We must apprecaite Rashneek who must have spent a huge time and countered > an attempt by "someone" to re-create history.Rashneek has bought to us the > reality which gives an indepth knowledge about Kashmirs hostory , which was > mis represented by "someone" with little knowledge of the particular issue. > > Let us atleast be honest in admitting the facts . > > Pawan > > > On 1/10/08, we wi wrote: > > > > Dear Partha, > > > > I saw and read your earlier remarks and comments over > > pawan,chanchal mails. I feel happy(myself and of-course on behalf of > > Rashneek) if you would have directly responded to the 5 volumes of rashneek > > mails instead of responding this way. I am damn sure that Rashneek will be > > more joyful for his efforts in bringing the tormented age old history point > > wise in front of the readers by eradicating the myths created because of > > ABCD reasons, provided you would have responded directly to his mails. I > > would like to question you why don't you come-out on your own-way, instead > > of responding to somebody. > > > > > > Let me quote from rashneeks "Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and > > Magnitude-III" > > > > " > > > when you are born in a certain land you learn so many things > > unwittingly." > > > > If I slightly change this , > > > > If you are born in a certain land and > > 1) You didn't learn few things at least(not so many) its your > > fault. > > 2) Though you learn but kept aside again its your fault(you > > learned but kept them out > > you wasted the time in learning them first and for not using > > them second). > > > > > > Though NALANDA and TAKSHASILA(TAXILA) universities burnt and literature > > ruined in places like Kashmir along with people, there are books kept at > > different places. Rajatarangini is just a rain drop in the SANSKRIT > > LITERATURE OCEAN. Apart from the Vedas to Ramayana,Mahabharata,Bhagavat > > every thing is Sanskrit. If I start mentioning the great people,book names > > the list is so vast. VALMIKI,VYASA, ... to ADI > > SANKARA,PATANJALI,CHARAKA,JAIMINI,ARYABHATTA,CHANAKYA,BANA, > > GUNADYA,PANINI,KALIDAS,BHOJA,BHATRUHARI,KRISHNADEVARAYA... so many > > kings,poets,scholars. The reasons are different for these people to become > > poets and kings > > and so as their actions(Not the way so called historians noted and the > > people used the caste and religion and using still) irrespective or their > > caste and religion. When come to know about the reality and the motive one > > should feel a sorry for their anguish and illiteracy > > to understanding the things, but by the time the successfull destruction > > will be completed. > > > > > > If you read GURUCHARITRA (come to know about the stories at least) > > either Sanskrit/Devanagari or whatever language version, you come to know > > that MLECCHA is the term used in that book as well. Like that many words and > > idioms are just mingled in common peoples life imposed directly from > > Sanskrit. > > > > " >There are so many phrases and idioms in the language that tell us of > > our past,the >bedtime stories are a world of knowledge which no book of > > history can suffice for.The >vakhs and shrukhs that ordinary people on > > the street quote tell us about the socio-cultural >aspect of the age when > > that vakh/shrukh was written." > > > > I inspire for the above said lines because they are true and stand for > > all practical purposes. Sanskrit ruled India irrespective of place. The > > regional languages are created either dumping the Sanskrit words and > > terminology used in those days fully or partially. If your 2nd language is > > either Sanskrit or your mother tongue then you can come to know about the > > things and of course you can gain knowledge outside as well (whether it is > > use full or not). > > > > --Next coming back to the argument, > > > > People ransacked India created new history and campaigning it in their > > own way feeling that they did best, but they fail to think and locate about > > the original preserved history and the exact meanings. > > > > Who is stopping you or anybody to participate in country development or > > Nation building in a CONSTRUCTIVE WAY? Does it really happening the answer > > is a definite no, rather the destruction is still going on in more worsen > > way. You could not create a counter logic like the one you framed in this > > mail or any other mails to support whatever I don't wish to point them out > > repeatedly. > > > > Regards, > > Dhatri. > > > > Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Hi, > > > > 1. 'Mlechha' was a derogatory term to describe people who 'did not > > follow Vedic principles' much as 'Firang' is used today for > > 'foreigners'. > > It was also used to refer to Meat Eaters which covers a vast part > > of > > the tribals who can not by any stretch of imagination be considered > > > > foreigners. > > > > 2. The usage of the word 'Turk' for Harsha was a distancing by the > > local > > populace in those days to disassociate the King from the trend. > > However, > > if 'foreigner;, 'outsider' and 'mlechha' are considered, then Harsha > > was by > > birth and place certainly a Hindu and not a Turk. In fact, even as > > per the > > Rajatarangini he ate pork and was not a full convert to Islam. > > > > 3. Rashneek's debate is not about outsiders/foreigners. It is about the > > destruction > > of religious structures - which Harsha as a Hindu ruler did to both > > Temples and > > Buddhist monastries irrespective of what relegion they followed. > > > > 4. Even if we reach a point where we accept conversion (thereby happily > > throwing > > Harsha out of the 'Hindu' group and disowning his activities), it > > does not make > > Muslims outsiders. Other than any one else who may have converted > > for whatever > > reason, "the Turk king Harsha" as he's referred to in the > > Rajatarangini was certainly > > a local and cannot be considered an outsider however his behaviour > > may have been. > > We may want to disown him, but that does not change Harsha's origin. > > > > 5. All that aside, let us for a moment agree that Islamic iconoclasts > > did despoil > > some temples some decades or centuries back. Now what? Are we going > > to rebuild > > all those temples after researching how many were destroyed and > > where? While we > > are going about doing that will we remove the British and Portugese > > structures all over > > India - including the North/South Blocks and a host of other > > buildings. That sounds > > rather ridiculous to me and if that time & money is going to be spent > > I do hope it's > > spent on education, hospitals, infrastructure and tons of other areas > > that this country > > needs shoring up on. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ................................ > > > > On Jan 9, 2008 5:53 PM, we wi < dhatr1i at yahoo.com> wrote: > > Hi Rashneek, > > > > This is really Great work and nice explanation on myths. Not only the > > terms turk produces the meaning (outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims in > > this case) but also the term mleccha will also produce the same > > meaning(outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims in this case) widely used to > > refer in times. > > > > Regards, > > Dhatri. > > > > > > rashneek kher wrote: > > PART-III > > > > > > > > I am devoting this part to Harsha alone.This is because he has been > > pulled out of the historical wilderness time and again by the Marxist > > historians.This one example is used as a counterweight the huge > > historical evidence that we have to support religious persecution and > > Iconoclasm by hundreds of muslim rulers all over south Asia and not > > just Kashmir alone. > > > > It seems as if just because Harsha did what Muslim rulers followed as > > a matter of policy and an instrument of abuse we are to condone their > > acts. > > > > > > > > Harsha"The Iconoclast" > > > > > > > > Let us first see how Shudda looks at Kalhana especially in the context > > of the above discussion. > > > > > > > > My learned friend writes > > > > > > > > *"We know that Kalhana describes Sankaravarman as a destroyer of sixty > > > > four temples. But the motives for this destruction, which Kalhana > > > > attributes to greed alone, can be read differently"* > > > > > > > > This leaves me thoroughly confused for one hand Shudda questions > > Kalhana's un-biased view on History as you will read above he raises a > > question mark and says"*can be read differently"* while at the > > beginning of second series of his essay he says > > > > > > > > *Kalhana's importance for the understanding of early medieval history in > > > > **South Asia** is unquestionable. Especially because his writing > > embodies a > > > > singular and significant model for historiographic investigation and > > > > accounting, rare in the pre - Islamicate cultures of **South Asia**. He > > > > describes and lists the events that mark the reigns of rulers without > > > > favour or prejudice. He makes an effort at consistence and attempts to > > > > maintains a rigourous standard as far as chronology and the duration of > > > > reigns is concerned. His descriptions of everyday life, of the seasons, > > > > of customs, religious beliefs, rituals, war and political intrigue - all > > > > furnish valuable details about what life would have been like in > > **Kashmir**. He explicitly marks a distinction between the mythic and > > the > > > > historic phases of his narrative. He is especially important because > > > > reading Kalhana, one finds it impossible to state that iconoclasm and > > > > secterian strife was the special preserve of Muslim rulers in **South > > > > Asia**, as Hindutva apologists are wont to do.* > > > > > > > > Please read the last line carefully.I post it again for the benefit of > > the readers > > > > > > > > *He is especially important because > > > > reading Kalhana, one finds it impossible to state that iconoclasm and > > > > secterian strife was the special preserve of Muslim rulers in **South > > > > Asia**, as Hindutva apologists are wont to do.* > > > > * * > > > > *Now let Shudda show me a line wherein I have said that Iconoclasm and > > Secterian Strife was the preserve of Muslim Rulers alone* > > > > > > > > To make my point of view clear on this I am quoting myself from an > > article I wrote long back for Greater Kashmir(a separatist leaning > > newspaper published from Srinagar).This shall prove beyond doubt what > > my take is on the kings of Kashmir,irrespective of their religious > > leanings.. > > > > * * > > > > *"Only when one looks back into the pages of history one realizes how > > unfortunate have we been. Except for three kings ie Lalitaditya > > Muktapida, > > Avantivarman and Sultan Zainulabidin in whose regimes we saw development > > and > > prosperity in Kashmir,we have mostly been ruled by cruel despots.Tillthe > > advent of Islam we have been ruled by kings who were more or less > > indigenous > > rulers except for Asoka and rulers of Kushana dynasty. With the advent > > of > > Islam, we had kings of foreign origin ruling us. However the uniting > > thread > > among all these kings was their cruelty and in dealing with their > > subjects." > > * > > > > * * > > > > *Romila Thapar and Harbans Mukhiya-Lies and Un-substantiated Claims* > > > > > > > > Let us examine what Romila Thapar,A L Basham and Mukhiya have to say > > about iconoclasm by Hindu kings in Kashmir in their various > > articles.Although I could not put my hands on all the articles which > > Shudda had referred to yet I did read enough to get a hang of what > > Romila Thapar(whose knowledge and erudition of Sanskrit has always > > been a question mark) and Mukhiya whose Marxist leftist credentials > > have never been under question.So we kind of know which side of their > > bread is buttered.We will try and understand what Basham says about > > "Harsha the Iconoclast".I am leaving Mukhiya alone but if need be ,we > > will discuss his understanding of Harsha as well.I will also like the > > forum to read through this piece of extremely unbiased work by an > > American Student. > > > > * * > > > > *Puzzling Dimensions and Theoretical Knots in my **Graduate** > > **School** Research By Yvette Claire Rosser, M.A., Ph.D. * > > > > * * > > > > * > > http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/s_es/s_es_rosse_puzzle_frameset.htm* > > > > *A few days later I met with Professor Romila Thapar and told her Prof. > > Mukhia had told me that she could provide information substantiate the > > hypothesis that Hindu rulers in the past had regularly destroyed temples > > in > > neighboring kingdoms. She said that she had not written anything but > > that > > Richard Eaton, an American scholar had recently written about this > > phenomenon in the introduction of his latest book. * > > > > *A few months later in the December 9 and 16 editions of Frontline > > published > > by the Leftist leaning editor N. Ram of The Hindu newspaper Dr. Eaton > > did > > publish a long article in two parts that discussed in detail the > > destruction > > and desecration of various temples during the Medieval Period. In his > > article, Eaton attempted to prove the assertion made by Dr. Mukhia's and > > his > > colleagues. However it was argued, Eaton failed to understand the > > difference > > in scale and magnitude between the few times Hindus raided the temples > > of > > other kings, and the much more wide spread and architecturally > > devastating > > attacks from Muslim armies.* > > > > *I spoke with Professors Thapar and Mukhia and told them that I had > > heard > > about Harsha in **Kashmir**, recounted by the poet Kalhana in the > > 'Rajtarangini'. Harsha destroyed some temples and viharas, but most > > scholars > > consider Harsha's actions as exceptions to the usual practice. I pointed > > out > > that all of the literature indicates that Harsha was definitely only > > looting > > the temples for gold and riches, not desecrating them for ideological > > reasons. Though the result is the same, the temples were attacked, the > > intent and the scale of the destruction was very different. **I also > > mentioned that there seems to have been one or two instances in > > Rajasthan > > and **Gujarat** where competing Maharajas raided temples in the > > neighboring > > kingdom and stole a murti (consecrated statue) which was considered to > > be > > endowed with powerful attributes. Then, bringing it back to his own > > kingdom, > > the king erected a new and more fabulous temple for the murti. This type > > of > > vandalism is a very different case, the murti was removed as a trophy > > not as > > an unholy thing to be desecrated. In the accounts that I had heard, the > > king > > who had looted the temple of his adversary did not throw the captured > > statue > > in the roadway or bury it into the staircase of a religious structure in > > his > > kingdom to be trod upon, but, interestingly, he built an even grander > > temple > > and had it installed with fanfare. Though the actions may have > > similarities, > > the motivations were very different. * > > > > *I also suggested that these types of attacks on temples were not > > representative of usual practice, but in fact were very much the > > exception > > to the rule. Even after reading the Eaton article, I was not impressed > > by > > the meager evidence. Though the article very few verifiable examples > > offered > > to substantiate this often-repeated claim that Hindus were just a guilty > > as > > Muslims for breaking statues and destroying temples. I told suggested to > > several Leftist scholars in Indian that they should stop using that tact > > about the Hindus destroying temples, because hardly anyone in > > **India**really believes them. The > > evidence that Hindus were equally culpable for the destruction of > > temples > > and viharas, similar to the large scale destruction of Hindu temples by > > the > > various Muslim dynasties is simply untenable. Though the Marxist > > historians > > in **India** use the case of King Harsh in **Kashmir**, it is a rare > > historical exception, certainly not proof of a legacy of Hindu-driven > > carnage. Yet the historians who make these claims have failed to uncover > > any > > real evidence to substantiate their theory of Hindu aggression. * > > > > Let us move on to see what an independent Belgian Indologist Keonraad > > Elst has to say about claims made by Romila Thapar about Harsh's > > iconoclasm.Thapar's claims seem to have found favour with Shudda for > > they fall in line with his pre-determined understanding of Kalhana.* * > > > > *Kalhana's first-hand testimony:*** > > > > *Now, let us look into the historical references cited by Romila Thapar. > > Of > > Banabhatta's Harshacharita, concerning Harsha of Kanauj (r.606-647), I > > have > > no copy available here, so I will keep that for another paper. > > Meanwhile, I > > have been able to consult both the Sanskrit original and the English > > translation of Kalhana's Rajatarangini, and that source provides a > > clinching > > testimony.* > > > > *Harsha or Harshadeva of **Kashmir** (r.1089-1111 ) has been called the > > "Nero > > of **Kashmir**", and this "because of his cruelty" ( S.B. Bhattacherje: > > Encyclopaedia of Indian Events and Dates, Sterling Publ., Delhi 1995, > > p.A-20). > > He is described by Kalhana as having looted and desecrated most Hindu > > and > > Buddhist temples in **Kashmir**, partly through an office which he had > > created, viz. the "officer for despoiling god-temples". The general data > > on > > 11th-century **Kashmir** already militate against treating him as a > > typical > > Hindu king who did on purely Hindu grounds what Muslim kings also did, > > viz. > > to destroy the places of worship of rival religions. For, **Kashmir** > > had > > already been occupied by Masud Ghaznavi, son of Mahmud, in 1034, and > > Turkish > > troops were a permanent presence as mercenaries to the king.* > > > > *Harsha was a fellow-traveller: not yet a full convert to Islam (he > > still > > ate pork, as per Rajatarangini 7:1149), but quite adapted to the Islamic > > ways, for "he ever fostered with money the Turks, who were his > > centurions" > > (7:1149). There was nothing Hindu about his iconoclasm, which targeted > > Hindu > > temples, as if a Muslim king were to demolish mosques rather than > > temples. > > All temples in his kingdom except four (enumerated in 7:1096-1098, two > > of > > them Buddhist) were damaged. This behaviour was so un-Hindu and so > > characteristically Islamic that Kalhana reports: "In the village, the > > town > > or in Srinagara there was not one temple which was not despoiled by the > > Turk > > king Harsha." (7:1095)* > > > > *So there you have it: "the Turk king Harsha". Far from representing a > > separate Hindu tradition of iconoclasm, Harsha of **Kashmir** was a > > somewhat > > peculiar (viz. fellow-traveller) representative of the Islamic tradition > > of > > iconoclasm. Like Mahmud Ghaznavi and Aurangzeb, he despoiled and looted > > Hindu shrines, not non-Hindu ones. Influenced by the Muslims in his > > employ, > > he behaved like a Muslim.* > > > > *And this is said explicitly in the text which Romila Thapar cites as > > proving the existence of Hindu iconoclasm. If she herself has read it at > > all, she must be knowing that it doesn't support the claim she is > > making. > > Either she has just been bluffing, writing lies about Kalhana's > > testimony in > > the hope that her readers would be too inert to check the source. Or she > > simply hasn't read Kalhana's text in the first place. Either way, she > > has > > been caught in the act of making false claims about Kalhana's testimony > > even > > while denouncing others for not having checked with Kalhana. * > > > > *A.L.Basham* > > > > Thankfully I did get to read Basham's article titled*"Harsha of > > **Kashmir**and the Iconoclast Ascetics" > > * > > > > Basham writes and I quote"The dissolute king Harsha or Harshadeva(AD > > 1089-1101),when in financial straits,was advised by his evil counseller > > Lotsdhara to restore his fortunes by looting the temples and melting > > down > > the images of the gods" > > > > It is evident from the sentence that it was financial problems (due to > > various vices) that prompted him to resort to doing what he did. > > > > Although Basham contradicts himself later in the same article by saying > > that > > the motive could not be financial alone but he attributes it to King > > enjoying acts of heresy.He even contradicts Aurel Stein's explanation > > that > > King had been under the influence of turuska's or (Muslims or outsiders) > > who > > in this case happened to be Muslims. > > Even if we accept his explanation, there is nothing to prove that he > > destroyed temples to promote his faith or ideology (Hinduism) while the > > contrary can be proved by the following verse from Kalhana's > > Rajatarangni > > Book 7 verse 1095 > > > > *"In the village, the town or in Srinagara there was not one temple > > which > > was not despoiled by the Turk king Harsha." * > > > > Kalhana calling him a turk (which was a synonym for > > Muslim/outsider/foreigner in Kalhana's vocabulary.At many places Kalhana > > uses the term turuska's to describe Muslims.We will discuss the word > > Turuska > > in detail when we analyse Shudda's references to Rajatarangni. > > > > Although I do not completely agree with either Basham or Keonard > > Elst,the > > reasons for which are the following. > > > > 1.Koenard Elst has got it wrong that Kashmir was conquered by Masud of > > Ghaznvi in 1034.There are no direct/indirect references or credible > > sources > > of history to prove that fact.I agree with Shudda when he says that > > Islamic > > rule was still some two centuries away. > > > > 2.Basham's assertion that we should look to Ajivikas as Harsh's source > > of > > his iconoclasm also seems to be a far fetched argument.Shudda himself > > concludes his argument by stating the following"Basham's argument,albeit > > speculative,is less reliant on conjecture than the automatic > > identification > > of Turuska with Muslim that bedevils the other efforts to wrestle with > > the > > complexity of his reign that I have referred to above" > > > > Irrespective of the arguments set forth by Romila Thapar,Basham,Elst and > > > > others it is conclusively proved in case of Harsha that although he did > > destroy temples and Viharas both but the reason was not to promote > > Hinduism > > or to subjugate Buddhism.What however can be argued is that he may be > > doing > > at the behest of whom Kalhana calls Turks(outsiders/foreigners who were > > Muslims in this case) what later Muslim kings did.ie.Try and Destroy the > > very root of Hinduism in Sarada Desha. > > > > > > -- > > Rashneek Kher > > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919811047132 > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > > Search. > > > > --------------------------------- > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Fri Jan 11 12:36:22 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:06:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Correction! In-Reply-To: <332513.7419.qm@web45515.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <241751.85892.qm@web45507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> The quotations in this mail are from RASHNEEKS Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-V. we wi wrote: Dear Partha, I saw and read your earlier remarks and comments over pawan,chanchal mails. I feel happy(myself and of-course on behalf of Rashneek) if you would have directly responded to the 5 volumes of rashneek mails instead of responding this way. I am damn sure that Rashneek will be more joyful for his efforts in bringing the tormented age old history point wise in front of the readers by eradicating the myths created because of ABCD reasons, provided you would have responded directly to his mails. I would like to question you why don't you come-out on your own-way, instead of responding to somebody. Let me quote from rashneeks "Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-III" " > when you are born in a certain land you learn so many things unwittingly." If I slightly change this , If you are born in a certain land and 1) You didn't learn few things at least(not so many) its your fault. 2) Though you learn but kept aside again its your fault(you learned but kept them out you wasted the time in learning them first and for not using them second). Though NALANDA and TAKSHASILA(TAXILA) universities burnt and literature ruined in places like Kashmir along with people, there are books kept at different places. Rajatarangini is just a rain drop in the SANSKRIT LITERATURE OCEAN. Apart from the Vedas to Ramayana,Mahabharata,Bhagavat every thing is Sanskrit. If I start mentioning the great people,book names the list is so vast. VALMIKI,VYASA, ... to ADI SANKARA,PATANJALI,CHARAKA,JAIMINI,ARYABHATTA,CHANAKYA,BANA, GUNADYA,PANINI,KALIDAS,BHOJA,BHATRUHARI,KRISHNADEVARAYA... so many kings,poets,scholars. The reasons are different for these people to become poets and kings and so as their actions(Not the way so called historians noted and the people used the caste and religion and using still) irrespective or their caste and religion. When come to know about the reality and the motive one should feel a sorry for their anguish and illiteracy to understanding the things, but by the time the successfull destruction will be completed. If you read GURUCHARITRA (come to know about the stories at least) either Sanskrit/Devanagari or whatever language version, you come to know that MLECCHA is the term used in that book as well. Like that many words and idioms are just mingled in common peoples life imposed directly from Sanskrit. " >There are so many phrases and idioms in the language that tell us of our past,the >bedtime stories are a world of knowledge which no book of history can suffice for.The >vakhs and shrukhs that ordinary people on the street quote tell us about the socio-cultural >aspect of the age when that vakh/shrukh was written." I inspire for the above said lines because they are true and stand for all practical purposes. Sanskrit ruled India irrespective of place. The regional languages are created either dumping the Sanskrit words and terminology used in those days fully or partially. If your 2nd language is either Sanskrit or your mother tongue then you can come to know about the things and of course you can gain knowledge outside as well (whether it is use full or not). --Next coming back to the argument, People ransacked India created new history and campaigning it in their own way feeling that they did best, but they fail to think and locate about the original preserved history and the exact meanings. Who is stopping you or anybody to participate in country development or Nation building in a CONSTRUCTIVE WAY? Does it really happening the answer is a definite no, rather the destruction is still going on in more worsen way. You could not create a counter logic like the one you framed in this mail or any other mails to support whatever I don't wish to point them out repeatedly. Regards, Dhatri. Partha Dasgupta wrote: Hi, 1. 'Mlechha' was a derogatory term to describe people who 'did not follow Vedic principles' much as 'Firang' is used today for 'foreigners'. It was also used to refer to Meat Eaters which covers a vast part of the tribals who can not by any stretch of imagination be considered foreigners. 2. The usage of the word 'Turk' for Harsha was a distancing by the local populace in those days to disassociate the King from the trend. However, if 'foreigner;, 'outsider' and 'mlechha' are considered, then Harsha was by birth and place certainly a Hindu and not a Turk. In fact, even as per the Rajatarangini he ate pork and was not a full convert to Islam. 3. Rashneek's debate is not about outsiders/foreigners. It is about the destruction of religious structures - which Harsha as a Hindu ruler did to both Temples and Buddhist monastries irrespective of what relegion they followed. 4. Even if we reach a point where we accept conversion (thereby happily throwing Harsha out of the 'Hindu' group and disowning his activities), it does not make Muslims outsiders. Other than any one else who may have converted for whatever reason, "the Turk king Harsha" as he's referred to in the Rajatarangini was certainly a local and cannot be considered an outsider however his behaviour may have been. We may want to disown him, but that does not change Harsha's origin. 5. All that aside, let us for a moment agree that Islamic iconoclasts did despoil some temples some decades or centuries back. Now what? Are we going to rebuild all those temples after researching how many were destroyed and where? While we are going about doing that will we remove the British and Portugese structures all over India - including the North/South Blocks and a host of other buildings. That sounds rather ridiculous to me and if that time & money is going to be spent I do hope it's spent on education, hospitals, infrastructure and tons of other areas that this country needs shoring up on. Rgds, Partha ................................. On Jan 9, 2008 5:53 PM, we wi < dhatr1i at yahoo.com> wrote: Hi Rashneek, This is really Great work and nice explanation on myths. Not only the terms turk produces the meaning (outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims in this case) but also the term mleccha will also produce the same meaning(outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims in this case) widely used to refer in times. Regards, Dhatri. rashneek kher wrote: PART-III I am devoting this part to Harsha alone.This is because he has been pulled out of the historical wilderness time and again by the Marxist historians.This one example is used as a counterweight the huge historical evidence that we have to support religious persecution and Iconoclasm by hundreds of muslim rulers all over south Asia and not just Kashmir alone. It seems as if just because Harsha did what Muslim rulers followed as a matter of policy and an instrument of abuse we are to condone their acts. Harsha"The Iconoclast" Let us first see how Shudda looks at Kalhana especially in the context of the above discussion. My learned friend writes *"We know that Kalhana describes Sankaravarman as a destroyer of sixty four temples. But the motives for this destruction, which Kalhana attributes to greed alone, can be read differently"* This leaves me thoroughly confused for one hand Shudda questions Kalhana's un-biased view on History as you will read above he raises a question mark and says"*can be read differently"* while at the beginning of second series of his essay he says *Kalhana's importance for the understanding of early medieval history in **South Asia** is unquestionable. Especially because his writing embodies a singular and significant model for historiographic investigation and accounting, rare in the pre - Islamicate cultures of **South Asia**. He describes and lists the events that mark the reigns of rulers without favour or prejudice. He makes an effort at consistence and attempts to maintains a rigourous standard as far as chronology and the duration of reigns is concerned. His descriptions of everyday life, of the seasons, of customs, religious beliefs, rituals, war and political intrigue - all furnish valuable details about what life would have been like in **Kashmir**. He explicitly marks a distinction between the mythic and the historic phases of his narrative. He is especially important because reading Kalhana, one finds it impossible to state that iconoclasm and secterian strife was the special preserve of Muslim rulers in **South Asia**, as Hindutva apologists are wont to do.* Please read the last line carefully.I post it again for the benefit of the readers *He is especially important because reading Kalhana, one finds it impossible to state that iconoclasm and secterian strife was the special preserve of Muslim rulers in **South Asia**, as Hindutva apologists are wont to do.* * * *Now let Shudda show me a line wherein I have said that Iconoclasm and Secterian Strife was the preserve of Muslim Rulers alone* To make my point of view clear on this I am quoting myself from an article I wrote long back for Greater Kashmir(a separatist leaning newspaper published from Srinagar).This shall prove beyond doubt what my take is on the kings of Kashmir,irrespective of their religious leanings.. * * *"Only when one looks back into the pages of history one realizes how unfortunate have we been. Except for three kings ie Lalitaditya Muktapida, Avantivarman and Sultan Zainulabidin in whose regimes we saw development and prosperity in Kashmir,we have mostly been ruled by cruel despots.Till the advent of Islam we have been ruled by kings who were more or less indigenous rulers except for Asoka and rulers of Kushana dynasty. With the advent of Islam, we had kings of foreign origin ruling us. However the uniting thread among all these kings was their cruelty and in dealing with their subjects." * * * *Romila Thapar and Harbans Mukhiya-Lies and Un-substantiated Claims* Let us examine what Romila Thapar,A L Basham and Mukhiya have to say about iconoclasm by Hindu kings in Kashmir in their various articles.Although I could not put my hands on all the articles which Shudda had referred to yet I did read enough to get a hang of what Romila Thapar(whose knowledge and erudition of Sanskrit has always been a question mark) and Mukhiya whose Marxist leftist credentials have never been under question.So we kind of know which side of their bread is buttered.We will try and understand what Basham says about "Harsha the Iconoclast".I am leaving Mukhiya alone but if need be ,we will discuss his understanding of Harsha as well.I will also like the forum to read through this piece of extremely unbiased work by an American Student. * * *Puzzling Dimensions and Theoretical Knots in my **Graduate** **School** Research By Yvette Claire Rosser, M.A., Ph.D. * * * *http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/s_es/s_es_rosse_puzzle_frameset.htm* *A few days later I met with Professor Romila Thapar and told her Prof. Mukhia had told me that she could provide information substantiate the hypothesis that Hindu rulers in the past had regularly destroyed temples in neighboring kingdoms. She said that she had not written anything but that Richard Eaton, an American scholar had recently written about this phenomenon in the introduction of his latest book. * *A few months later in the December 9 and 16 editions of Frontline published by the Leftist leaning editor N. Ram of The Hindu newspaper Dr. Eaton did publish a long article in two parts that discussed in detail the destruction and desecration of various temples during the Medieval Period. In his article, Eaton attempted to prove the assertion made by Dr. Mukhia's and his colleagues. However it was argued, Eaton failed to understand the difference in scale and magnitude between the few times Hindus raided the temples of other kings, and the much more wide spread and architecturally devastating attacks from Muslim armies.* *I spoke with Professors Thapar and Mukhia and told them that I had heard about Harsha in **Kashmir**, recounted by the poet Kalhana in the 'Rajtarangini'. Harsha destroyed some temples and viharas, but most scholars consider Harsha's actions as exceptions to the usual practice. I pointed out that all of the literature indicates that Harsha was definitely only looting the temples for gold and riches, not desecrating them for ideological reasons. Though the result is the same, the temples were attacked, the intent and the scale of the destruction was very different. **I also mentioned that there seems to have been one or two instances in Rajasthan and **Gujarat** where competing Maharajas raided temples in the neighboring kingdom and stole a murti (consecrated statue) which was considered to be endowed with powerful attributes. Then, bringing it back to his own kingdom, the king erected a new and more fabulous temple for the murti. This type of vandalism is a very different case, the murti was removed as a trophy not as an unholy thing to be desecrated. In the accounts that I had heard, the king who had looted the temple of his adversary did not throw the captured statue in the roadway or bury it into the staircase of a religious structure in his kingdom to be trod upon, but, interestingly, he built an even grander temple and had it installed with fanfare. Though the actions may have similarities, the motivations were very different. * *I also suggested that these types of attacks on temples were not representative of usual practice, but in fact were very much the exception to the rule. Even after reading the Eaton article, I was not impressed by the meager evidence. Though the article very few verifiable examples offered to substantiate this often-repeated claim that Hindus were just a guilty as Muslims for breaking statues and destroying temples. I told suggested to several Leftist scholars in Indian that they should stop using that tact about the Hindus destroying temples, because hardly anyone in **India**really believes them. The evidence that Hindus were equally culpable for the destruction of temples and viharas, similar to the large scale destruction of Hindu temples by the various Muslim dynasties is simply untenable. Though the Marxist historians in **India** use the case of King Harsh in **Kashmir**, it is a rare historical exception, certainly not proof of a legacy of Hindu-driven carnage. Yet the historians who make these claims have failed to uncover any real evidence to substantiate their theory of Hindu aggression. * Let us move on to see what an independent Belgian Indologist Keonraad Elst has to say about claims made by Romila Thapar about Harsh's iconoclasm.Thapar's claims seem to have found favour with Shudda for they fall in line with his pre-determined understanding of Kalhana.* * *Kalhana's first-hand testimony:*** *Now, let us look into the historical references cited by Romila Thapar. Of Banabhatta's Harshacharita, concerning Harsha of Kanauj (r.606-647), I have no copy available here, so I will keep that for another paper. Meanwhile, I have been able to consult both the Sanskrit original and the English translation of Kalhana's Rajatarangini, and that source provides a clinching testimony.* *Harsha or Harshadeva of **Kashmir** (r.1089-1111 ) has been called the "Nero of **Kashmir**", and this "because of his cruelty" (S.B. Bhattacherje: Encyclopaedia of Indian Events and Dates, Sterling Publ., Delhi 1995, p.A-20). He is described by Kalhana as having looted and desecrated most Hindu and Buddhist temples in **Kashmir**, partly through an office which he had created, viz. the "officer for despoiling god-temples". The general data on 11th-century **Kashmir** already militate against treating him as a typical Hindu king who did on purely Hindu grounds what Muslim kings also did, viz. to destroy the places of worship of rival religions. For, **Kashmir** had already been occupied by Masud Ghaznavi, son of Mahmud, in 1034, and Turkish troops were a permanent presence as mercenaries to the king.* *Harsha was a fellow-traveller: not yet a full convert to Islam (he still ate pork, as per Rajatarangini 7:1149), but quite adapted to the Islamic ways, for "he ever fostered with money the Turks, who were his centurions" (7:1149). There was nothing Hindu about his iconoclasm, which targeted Hindu temples, as if a Muslim king were to demolish mosques rather than temples. All temples in his kingdom except four (enumerated in 7:1096-1098, two of them Buddhist) were damaged. This behaviour was so un-Hindu and so characteristically Islamic that Kalhana reports: "In the village, the town or in Srinagara there was not one temple which was not despoiled by the Turk king Harsha." (7:1095)* *So there you have it: "the Turk king Harsha". Far from representing a separate Hindu tradition of iconoclasm, Harsha of **Kashmir** was a somewhat peculiar (viz. fellow-traveller) representative of the Islamic tradition of iconoclasm. Like Mahmud Ghaznavi and Aurangzeb, he despoiled and looted Hindu shrines, not non-Hindu ones. Influenced by the Muslims in his employ, he behaved like a Muslim.* *And this is said explicitly in the text which Romila Thapar cites as proving the existence of Hindu iconoclasm. If she herself has read it at all, she must be knowing that it doesn't support the claim she is making. Either she has just been bluffing, writing lies about Kalhana's testimony in the hope that her readers would be too inert to check the source. Or she simply hasn't read Kalhana's text in the first place. Either way, she has been caught in the act of making false claims about Kalhana's testimony even while denouncing others for not having checked with Kalhana. * *A.L.Basham* Thankfully I did get to read Basham's article titled*"Harsha of **Kashmir**and the Iconoclast Ascetics" * Basham writes and I quote"The dissolute king Harsha or Harshadeva(AD 1089-1101),when in financial straits,was advised by his evil counseller Lotsdhara to restore his fortunes by looting the temples and melting down the images of the gods" It is evident from the sentence that it was financial problems (due to various vices) that prompted him to resort to doing what he did. Although Basham contradicts himself later in the same article by saying that the motive could not be financial alone but he attributes it to King enjoying acts of heresy.He even contradicts Aurel Stein's explanation that King had been under the influence of turuska's or (Muslims or outsiders) who in this case happened to be Muslims. Even if we accept his explanation, there is nothing to prove that he destroyed temples to promote his faith or ideology (Hinduism) while the contrary can be proved by the following verse from Kalhana's Rajatarangni Book 7 verse 1095 *"In the village, the town or in Srinagara there was not one temple which was not despoiled by the Turk king Harsha." * Kalhana calling him a turk (which was a synonym for Muslim/outsider/foreigner in Kalhana's vocabulary.At many places Kalhana uses the term turuska's to describe Muslims.We will discuss the word Turuska in detail when we analyse Shudda's references to Rajatarangni. Although I do not completely agree with either Basham or Keonard Elst,the reasons for which are the following. 1.Koenard Elst has got it wrong that Kashmir was conquered by Masud of Ghaznvi in 1034.There are no direct/indirect references or credible sources of history to prove that fact.I agree with Shudda when he says that Islamic rule was still some two centuries away. 2.Basham's assertion that we should look to Ajivikas as Harsh's source of his iconoclasm also seems to be a far fetched argument.Shudda himself concludes his argument by stating the following"Basham's argument,albeit speculative,is less reliant on conjecture than the automatic identification of Turuska with Muslim that bedevils the other efforts to wrestle with the === message truncated === --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From sadan at sarai.net Fri Jan 11 12:47:06 2008 From: sadan at sarai.net (sadan at sarai.net) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:47:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Surat: Entry in the city Message-ID: <9fa0b1fd12e68db5f061ec5917001734@sarai.net> "Surat? Ah yes, Once only I stayed in Surat with family members of my uncle's very old friend, his wife was cooking nicely... that was long time ago..." For the full poem see, http://audiopoetry.wordpress.com/2007/08/22/goodbye-party-for-miss-pushpa-ts Like many other crucial functions, cities have been sites of memories too. The memory of this city of Surat comes alive at the moment of departure of Miss Pushpa, in this poem by Nissim Ezekiel. It is a "good bye party for miss Pushpa T.S." 'She is departing for foreign'. The poet writes, "Miss Pushpa is coming from very high family. Her father was renowned advocate in Bulsar or Surat, I am not remembering now which place". As a history student, my immidiate impulsive responsibility is to find the date when this poem was composed, at least date of of publication is necessary. The geographical setting of this party, the social environment, the literary form and the affective charge are some of the primary areas needed to be attended by any researcher. I am informed, "Ezekiel( 24December 1924- 9 January 2004) belonged to Mumbai's tiny, Marathi-speaking Bene Israel Jewish community, which never experienced anti-semitism. They were descended from oil-pressers who sailed from Galilee around 150BC, and, shipwrecked off the Indian subcontinent, settled, intermarried and forgot their Hebrew, yet maintained the Sabbath. There were 20,000 Bene Israel in India 60 years ago; now, only 5,000 remain". He stayed while his relatives left gradually for Israel. This same Guardian article by Lawrence Joffe( 9March, 2004) that maps his life sketch also informs that "Ezekiel's poetry described love, loneliness, lust, creativity and political pomposity, human foibles and the "kindred clamour" of urban dissonance". I want to know more on this poet and his poems. But I am more interested to know about Bene Israel Jewish community in India, particulary in western part of this country. The linkages between this community and the city of Surat. However, before moving to a rapidly declining community and its association with Surat, that boasts its multi-cultural and multi-ethnic past ties, A brief pause at memory, literature and the city would be more pertinant. This is not merely because we began thinking about Miss Pushpa as a moment when the memory about the city came alive, memory of a visit to Surat. This is also because the space of the city of Surat is grounded and translated in and through the memories of specific experiences( i.e. visit to a fmaily, nicely cooked food etc.) and figures (family members, uncle's old friend, figure of a wife through the act of cooking etc) and we come face to face with the placeness about the city. This transition from the space to place-ness is mediated here through the memory randered in specfic literary form, poetry. The question that needs attention is how to conceptualise this relation between the city, memory and literature in general and with poetry in particular. Any comment is welcome as the project is at its infant stage. sadan. From mail at shivamvij.com Fri Jan 11 13:21:10 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:21:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Surat: Entry in the city In-Reply-To: <9fa0b1fd12e68db5f061ec5917001734@sarai.net> References: <9fa0b1fd12e68db5f061ec5917001734@sarai.net> Message-ID: <9c06aab30801102351w67f05a4dxc189d1d9a0f06d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Sadan, I think any analysis of the Pushpa TS poem must keep in mind that it is part of a series of eight odd poems called "Very Indian Poems in Very Indian English". It is important that all of these poems be read together; that challenges many notions that reading Pushpa TS in isolation brings along. best shivam On 1/11/08, sadan at sarai.net wrote: > "Surat? Ah yes, > Once only I stayed in Surat > with family members > of my uncle's very old friend, > his wife was cooking nicely... > that was long time ago..." > For the full poem see, http://audiopoetry.wordpress.com/2007/08/22/goodbye-party-for-miss-pushpa-ts > > Like many other crucial functions, cities have been sites of memories too. > The memory of this city of Surat comes alive at the moment of departure of > Miss Pushpa, in this poem by Nissim Ezekiel. It is a "good bye party for > miss Pushpa T.S." 'She is departing for foreign'. The poet writes, > "Miss Pushpa is coming > from very high family. > Her father was renowned advocate > in Bulsar or Surat, > I am not remembering now > which place". > As a history student, my immidiate impulsive responsibility is to find the > date when this poem was composed, at least date of of publication is > necessary. The geographical setting of this party, the social environment, > the literary form and the affective charge are some of the primary areas > needed to be attended by any researcher. > I am informed, > "Ezekiel( 24December 1924- 9 January 2004) belonged to Mumbai's tiny, > Marathi-speaking Bene Israel Jewish community, which never experienced > anti-semitism. They were descended from oil-pressers who sailed from > Galilee around 150BC, and, shipwrecked off the Indian subcontinent, > settled, intermarried and forgot their Hebrew, yet maintained the Sabbath. > There were 20,000 Bene Israel in India 60 years ago; now, only 5,000 > remain". He stayed while his relatives left gradually for Israel. This same > Guardian article by Lawrence Joffe( 9March, 2004) that maps his life sketch > also informs that "Ezekiel's poetry described love, loneliness, lust, > creativity and political pomposity, human foibles and the "kindred clamour" > of urban dissonance". > I want to know more on this poet and his poems. But I am more interested > to know about Bene Israel Jewish community in India, particulary in western > part of this country. The linkages between this community and the city of > Surat. However, before moving to a rapidly declining community and its > association with Surat, that boasts its multi-cultural and multi-ethnic > past ties, A brief pause at memory, literature and the city would be more > pertinant. This is not merely because we began thinking about Miss Pushpa > as a moment when the memory about the city came alive, memory of a visit to > Surat. This is also because the space of the city of Surat is grounded and > translated in and through the memories of specific experiences( i.e. visit > to a fmaily, nicely cooked food etc.) and figures (family members, uncle's > old friend, figure of a wife through the act of cooking etc) and we come > face to face with the placeness about the city. This transition from the > space to place-ness is mediated here through the memory randered in specfic > literary form, poetry. The question that needs attention is how to > conceptualise this relation between the city, memory and literature in > general and with poetry in particular. > Any comment is welcome as the project is at its infant stage. > sadan. > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From namratakakkar1 at yahoo.co.in Fri Jan 11 16:11:22 2008 From: namratakakkar1 at yahoo.co.in (Namrata Kakkar) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:41:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Death of a debate! Atlast! Message-ID: <731751.85297.qm@web8606.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear All, I think the debate that was going on here over a few days on whether all forms of histories need the archives or not, and other questions related to it, have reached a dead end and has died an un- natural death. We are relieved. This was all but obvious. While Chatterjee's confidence and erudition coupled with false humility and humbleness was all too transparent( he seems to be knwoing the answer to the question he was asking), Mr. Jha was trying too make both ends meet, anyhow; his arguments were at times wild off the mark.And Ritwik's late entry complicated the scene further, he would pass a judgement without wanting to back it and then switching to a new judgement. The only man sincere in this debate was Prem Chadravarkar who was foucused throughout but his sincerity was sacrificed to an ungainly comment, which he should not have taken personally at all. I think there were many readers like me who were following this debate with interest. But what did we gain--this is the question? And somebody should answer. namrata Now you can chat without downloading messenger. Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php From sadan at sarai.net Fri Jan 11 16:32:13 2008 From: sadan at sarai.net (sadan at sarai.net) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:32:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Death of a debate! Atlast! In-Reply-To: <731751.85297.qm@web8606.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <731751.85297.qm@web8606.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: thanks Namrata, for declaring the debate dead and lot of other remarks. Each reader has a right to ask this question, what did s/he get. But I noticed you wrote, 'But what did we gain'. I wonder what does this we stand for? I appreciate that you followed this debate with interest and cared to write an obituary. My fear is that dead sould may come back sadan. On 4:11 pm 01/11/08 Namrata Kakkar wrote: > Dear All, > I think the debate that was going on here > over a few days on whether all forms of histories need > the archives or not, and other questions related to > it, have reached a dead end and has died an un- > natural death. We are relieved. > This was all but obvious. While Chatterjee's > confidence and erudition coupled with false humility > and humbleness was all too transparent( he seems to be > knwoing the answer to the question he was asking), Mr. > Jha was trying too make both ends meet, anyhow; his > arguments were at times wild off the mark.And Ritwik's > late entry complicated the scene further, he would > pass a judgement without wanting to back it and then > switching to a new judgement. The only man sincere in > this debate was Prem Chadravarkar who was foucused > throughout but his sincerity was sacrificed to an > ungainly comment, which he should not have taken > personally at all. > I think there were many readers like me who were > following this debate with interest. But what did we > gain--this is the question? And somebody should > answer. > namrata > > > Now you can chat without downloading messenger. Go to > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.ne > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From amitrbasu50 at yahoo.co.in Fri Jan 11 23:20:30 2008 From: amitrbasu50 at yahoo.co.in (Amit Basu) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:50:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Death of a debate! Atlast! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <577527.24718.qm@web8512.mail.in.yahoo.com> I think all debates have deaths and this is no surprise. However, the spirit in the dead-body remains in the way we write histories (or genealogies). amit "sadan at sarai.net" wrote: thanks Namrata, for declaring the debate dead and lot of other remarks. Each reader has a right to ask this question, what did s/he get. But I noticed you wrote, 'But what did we gain'. I wonder what does this we stand for? I appreciate that you followed this debate with interest and cared to write an obituary. My fear is that dead sould may come back sadan. On 4:11 pm 01/11/08 Namrata Kakkar wrote: > Dear All, > I think the debate that was going on here > over a few days on whether all forms of histories need > the archives or not, and other questions related to > it, have reached a dead end and has died an un- > natural death. We are relieved. > This was all but obvious. While Chatterjee's > confidence and erudition coupled with false humility > and humbleness was all too transparent( he seems to be > knwoing the answer to the question he was asking), Mr. > Jha was trying too make both ends meet, anyhow; his > arguments were at times wild off the mark.And Ritwik's > late entry complicated the scene further, he would > pass a judgement without wanting to back it and then > switching to a new judgement. The only man sincere in > this debate was Prem Chadravarkar who was foucused > throughout but his sincerity was sacrificed to an > ungainly comment, which he should not have taken > personally at all. > I think there were many readers like me who were > following this debate with interest. But what did we > gain--this is the question? And somebody should > answer. > namrata > > > Now you can chat without downloading messenger. Go to > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.ne > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: Dr. Amit Ranjan Basu BE 318, Salt Lake, Kolkata-700064, India. Tel: (Mob)+91-098833 0665333 (Res)+91-033-2334 9805 --------------------------------- Forgot the famous last words? Access your message archive online. Click here. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 09:49:45 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:49:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-III In-Reply-To: <32144e990801102006k776cfc2exaaeb212b04e10029@mail.gmail.com> References: <32144e990801092105x3a2640c1h734620e01c1085f1@mail.gmail.com> <332513.7419.qm@web45515.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70801100016g1c831af6k23a34d71646b19ee@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990801102006k776cfc2exaaeb212b04e10029@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801112019o23e19f33j45cd82776946e180@mail.gmail.com> Partha , When you say that you have no issue with a re-created history" , it sounds defeating.And defeatist attitude has to be given up. We no longer are slaves of Turks and Afghans. And you can not deny the fact that those were the invaders. Pawan On 1/11/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > If you notice my response, and you have read it, do let me know where I > have denigrated Rashneek or claimed that he is incorrect. > > I have no issue with the 're-created history' or otherwise. > > What I have objected to is the casting of Muslims as invaders or > foreigners. > > Rgds, Partha > ........................... > > On Jan 10, 2008 1:46 PM, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hello Partha , > > > > We must apprecaite Rashneek who must have spent a huge time and > > countered an attempt by "someone" to re-create history.Rashneek has > > bought to us the reality which gives an indepth knowledge about Kashmirs > > hostory , which was mis represented by "someone" with little knowledge of > > the particular issue. > > > > Let us atleast be honest in admitting the facts . > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On 1/10/08, we wi wrote: > > > > > > Dear Partha, > > > > > > I saw and read your earlier remarks and comments over > > > pawan,chanchal mails. I feel happy(myself and of-course on behalf of > > > Rashneek) if you would have directly responded to the 5 volumes of rashneek > > > mails instead of responding this way. I am damn sure that Rashneek will be > > > more joyful for his efforts in bringing the tormented age old history point > > > wise in front of the readers by eradicating the myths created because of > > > ABCD reasons, provided you would have responded directly to his mails. I > > > would like to question you why don't you come-out on your own-way, instead > > > of responding to somebody. > > > > > > > > > Let me quote from rashneeks "Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and > > > Magnitude-III" > > > > > > " > > > > when you are born in a certain land you learn so many things > > > unwittingly." > > > > > > If I slightly change this , > > > > > > If you are born in a certain land and > > > 1) You didn't learn few things at least(not so many) its your > > > fault. > > > 2) Though you learn but kept aside again its your fault(you > > > learned but kept them out > > > you wasted the time in learning them first and for not > > > using them second). > > > > > > > > > Though NALANDA and TAKSHASILA(TAXILA) universities burnt and > > > literature ruined in places like Kashmir along with people, there are books > > > kept at different places. Rajatarangini is just a rain drop in the SANSKRIT > > > LITERATURE OCEAN. Apart from the Vedas to Ramayana,Mahabharata,Bhagavat > > > every thing is Sanskrit. If I start mentioning the great people,book names > > > the list is so vast. VALMIKI,VYASA, ... to ADI > > > SANKARA,PATANJALI,CHARAKA,JAIMINI,ARYABHATTA,CHANAKYA,BANA, > > > GUNADYA,PANINI,KALIDAS,BHOJA,BHATRUHARI,KRISHNADEVARAYA... so many > > > kings,poets,scholars. The reasons are different for these people to become > > > poets and kings > > > and so as their actions(Not the way so called historians noted and the > > > people used the caste and religion and using still) irrespective or their > > > caste and religion. When come to know about the reality and the motive one > > > should feel a sorry for their anguish and illiteracy > > > to understanding the things, but by the time the successfull > > > destruction will be completed. > > > > > > > > > If you read GURUCHARITRA (come to know about the stories at least) > > > either Sanskrit/Devanagari or whatever language version, you come to know > > > that MLECCHA is the term used in that book as well. Like that many words and > > > idioms are just mingled in common peoples life imposed directly from > > > Sanskrit. > > > > > > " >There are so many phrases and idioms in the language that tell us > > > of our past,the >bedtime stories are a world of knowledge which no book of > > > history can suffice for.The >vakhs and shrukhs that ordinary people on > > > the street quote tell us about the socio-cultural >aspect of the age when > > > that vakh/shrukh was written." > > > > > > I inspire for the above said lines because they are true and stand for > > > all practical purposes. Sanskrit ruled India irrespective of place. The > > > regional languages are created either dumping the Sanskrit words and > > > terminology used in those days fully or partially. If your 2nd language is > > > either Sanskrit or your mother tongue then you can come to know about the > > > things and of course you can gain knowledge outside as well (whether it is > > > use full or not). > > > > > > --Next coming back to the argument, > > > > > > People ransacked India created new history and campaigning it in their > > > own way feeling that they did best, but they fail to think and locate about > > > the original preserved history and the exact meanings. > > > > > > Who is stopping you or anybody to participate in country development > > > or Nation building in a CONSTRUCTIVE WAY? Does it really happening the > > > answer is a definite no, rather the destruction is still going on in more > > > worsen way. You could not create a counter logic like the one you framed in > > > this mail or any other mails to support whatever I don't wish to point them > > > out repeatedly. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Dhatri. > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > 1. 'Mlechha' was a derogatory term to describe people who 'did not > > > follow Vedic principles' much as 'Firang' is used today for > > > 'foreigners'. > > > It was also used to refer to Meat Eaters which covers a vast part > > > of > > > the tribals who can not by any stretch of imagination be > > > considered > > > foreigners. > > > > > > 2. The usage of the word 'Turk' for Harsha was a distancing by the > > > local > > > populace in those days to disassociate the King from the trend. > > > However, > > > if 'foreigner;, 'outsider' and 'mlechha' are considered, then > > > Harsha was by > > > birth and place certainly a Hindu and not a Turk. In fact, even as > > > per the > > > Rajatarangini he ate pork and was not a full convert to Islam. > > > > > > 3. Rashneek's debate is not about outsiders/foreigners. It is about > > > the destruction > > > of religious structures - which Harsha as a Hindu ruler did to > > > both Temples and > > > Buddhist monastries irrespective of what relegion they followed. > > > > > > 4. Even if we reach a point where we accept conversion (thereby > > > happily throwing > > > Harsha out of the 'Hindu' group and disowning his activities), it > > > does not make > > > Muslims outsiders. Other than any one else who may have converted > > > for whatever > > > reason, "the Turk king Harsha" as he's referred to in the > > > Rajatarangini was certainly > > > a local and cannot be considered an outsider however his behaviour > > > may have been. > > > We may want to disown him, but that does not change Harsha's > > > origin. > > > > > > 5. All that aside, let us for a moment agree that Islamic iconoclasts > > > did despoil > > > some temples some decades or centuries back. Now what? Are we going > > > to rebuild > > > all those temples after researching how many were destroyed and > > > where? While we > > > are going about doing that will we remove the British and Portugese > > > structures all over > > > India - including the North/South Blocks and a host of other > > > buildings. That sounds > > > rather ridiculous to me and if that time & money is going to be > > > spent I do hope it's > > > spent on education, hospitals, infrastructure and tons of other > > > areas that this country > > > needs shoring up on. > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > ................................ > > > > > > On Jan 9, 2008 5:53 PM, we wi < dhatr1i at yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Hi Rashneek, > > > > > > This is really Great work and nice explanation on myths. Not only the > > > terms turk produces the meaning (outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims in > > > this case) but also the term mleccha will also produce the same > > > meaning(outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims in this case) widely used to > > > refer in times. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Dhatri. > > > > > > > > > rashneek kher wrote: > > > PART-III > > > > > > > > > > > > I am devoting this part to Harsha alone.This is because he has been > > > pulled out of the historical wilderness time and again by the Marxist > > > historians.This one example is used as a counterweight the huge > > > historical evidence that we have to support religious persecution and > > > Iconoclasm by hundreds of muslim rulers all over south Asia and not > > > just Kashmir alone. > > > > > > It seems as if just because Harsha did what Muslim rulers followed as > > > a matter of policy and an instrument of abuse we are to condone their > > > acts. > > > > > > > > > > > > Harsha"The Iconoclast" > > > > > > > > > > > > Let us first see how Shudda looks at Kalhana especially in the context > > > of the above discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > My learned friend writes > > > > > > > > > > > > *"We know that Kalhana describes Sankaravarman as a destroyer of sixty > > > > > > > > > four temples. But the motives for this destruction, which Kalhana > > > > > > attributes to greed alone, can be read differently"* > > > > > > > > > > > > This leaves me thoroughly confused for one hand Shudda questions > > > Kalhana's un-biased view on History as you will read above he raises a > > > question mark and says"*can be read differently"* while at the > > > beginning of second series of his essay he says > > > > > > > > > > > > *Kalhana's importance for the understanding of early medieval history > > > in > > > **South Asia** is unquestionable. Especially because his writing > > > embodies a > > > > > > singular and significant model for historiographic investigation and > > > > > > accounting, rare in the pre - Islamicate cultures of **South Asia**. > > > He > > > > > > describes and lists the events that mark the reigns of rulers without > > > > > > favour or prejudice. He makes an effort at consistence and attempts to > > > > > > maintains a rigourous standard as far as chronology and the duration > > > of > > > > > > reigns is concerned. His descriptions of everyday life, of the > > > seasons, > > > > > > of customs, religious beliefs, rituals, war and political intrigue - > > > all > > > > > > furnish valuable details about what life would have been like in > > > **Kashmir**. He explicitly marks a distinction between the mythic and > > > the > > > > > > historic phases of his narrative. He is especially important because > > > > > > reading Kalhana, one finds it impossible to state that iconoclasm and > > > > > > secterian strife was the special preserve of Muslim rulers in **South > > > > > > Asia**, as Hindutva apologists are wont to do.* > > > > > > > > > > > > Please read the last line carefully.I post it again for the benefit of > > > the readers > > > > > > > > > > > > *He is especially important because > > > > > > reading Kalhana, one finds it impossible to state that iconoclasm and > > > > > > secterian strife was the special preserve of Muslim rulers in **South > > > > > > Asia**, as Hindutva apologists are wont to do.* > > > > > > * * > > > > > > *Now let Shudda show me a line wherein I have said that Iconoclasm and > > > Secterian Strife was the preserve of Muslim Rulers alone* > > > > > > > > > > > > To make my point of view clear on this I am quoting myself from an > > > article I wrote long back for Greater Kashmir(a separatist leaning > > > newspaper published from Srinagar).This shall prove beyond doubt what > > > my take is on the kings of Kashmir,irrespective of their religious > > > leanings.. > > > > > > * * > > > > > > *"Only when one looks back into the pages of history one realizes how > > > unfortunate have we been. Except for three kings ie Lalitaditya > > > Muktapida, > > > Avantivarman and Sultan Zainulabidin in whose regimes we saw > > > development and > > > prosperity in Kashmir,we have mostly been ruled by cruel despots.Tillthe > > > advent of Islam we have been ruled by kings who were more or less > > > indigenous > > > rulers except for Asoka and rulers of Kushana dynasty. With the advent > > > of > > > Islam, we had kings of foreign origin ruling us. However the uniting > > > thread > > > among all these kings was their cruelty and in dealing with their > > > subjects." > > > * > > > > > > * * > > > > > > *Romila Thapar and Harbans Mukhiya-Lies and Un-substantiated Claims* > > > > > > > > > > > > Let us examine what Romila Thapar,A L Basham and Mukhiya have to say > > > about iconoclasm by Hindu kings in Kashmir in their various > > > articles.Although I could not put my hands on all the articles which > > > Shudda had referred to yet I did read enough to get a hang of what > > > Romila Thapar(whose knowledge and erudition of Sanskrit has always > > > been a question mark) and Mukhiya whose Marxist leftist credentials > > > have never been under question.So we kind of know which side of their > > > bread is buttered.We will try and understand what Basham says about > > > "Harsha the Iconoclast".I am leaving Mukhiya alone but if need be ,we > > > will discuss his understanding of Harsha as well.I will also like the > > > forum to read through this piece of extremely unbiased work by an > > > American Student. > > > > > > * * > > > > > > *Puzzling Dimensions and Theoretical Knots in my **Graduate** > > > **School** Research By Yvette Claire Rosser, M.A., Ph.D. * > > > > > > * * > > > > > > * > > > http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/s_es/s_es_rosse_puzzle_frameset.htm* > > > > > > *A few days later I met with Professor Romila Thapar and told her > > > Prof. > > > Mukhia had told me that she could provide information substantiate the > > > hypothesis that Hindu rulers in the past had regularly destroyed > > > temples in > > > neighboring kingdoms. She said that she had not written anything but > > > that > > > Richard Eaton, an American scholar had recently written about this > > > phenomenon in the introduction of his latest book. * > > > > > > *A few months later in the December 9 and 16 editions of Frontline > > > published > > > by the Leftist leaning editor N. Ram of The Hindu newspaper Dr. Eaton > > > did > > > publish a long article in two parts that discussed in detail the > > > destruction > > > and desecration of various temples during the Medieval Period. In his > > > article, Eaton attempted to prove the assertion made by Dr. Mukhia's > > > and his > > > colleagues. However it was argued, Eaton failed to understand the > > > difference > > > in scale and magnitude between the few times Hindus raided the temples > > > of > > > other kings, and the much more wide spread and architecturally > > > devastating > > > attacks from Muslim armies.* > > > > > > *I spoke with Professors Thapar and Mukhia and told them that I had > > > heard > > > about Harsha in **Kashmir**, recounted by the poet Kalhana in the > > > 'Rajtarangini'. Harsha destroyed some temples and viharas, but most > > > scholars > > > consider Harsha's actions as exceptions to the usual practice. I > > > pointed out > > > that all of the literature indicates that Harsha was definitely only > > > looting > > > the temples for gold and riches, not desecrating them for ideological > > > reasons. Though the result is the same, the temples were attacked, the > > > intent and the scale of the destruction was very different. **I also > > > mentioned that there seems to have been one or two instances in > > > Rajasthan > > > and **Gujarat** where competing Maharajas raided temples in the > > > neighboring > > > kingdom and stole a murti (consecrated statue) which was considered to > > > be > > > endowed with powerful attributes. Then, bringing it back to his own > > > kingdom, > > > the king erected a new and more fabulous temple for the murti. This > > > type of > > > vandalism is a very different case, the murti was removed as a trophy > > > not as > > > an unholy thing to be desecrated. In the accounts that I had heard, > > > the king > > > who had looted the temple of his adversary did not throw the captured > > > statue > > > in the roadway or bury it into the staircase of a religious structure > > > in his > > > kingdom to be trod upon, but, interestingly, he built an even grander > > > temple > > > and had it installed with fanfare. Though the actions may have > > > similarities, > > > the motivations were very different. * > > > > > > *I also suggested that these types of attacks on temples were not > > > representative of usual practice, but in fact were very much the > > > exception > > > to the rule. Even after reading the Eaton article, I was not impressed > > > by > > > the meager evidence. Though the article very few verifiable examples > > > offered > > > to substantiate this often-repeated claim that Hindus were just a > > > guilty as > > > Muslims for breaking statues and destroying temples. I told suggested > > > to > > > several Leftist scholars in Indian that they should stop using that > > > tact > > > about the Hindus destroying temples, because hardly anyone in > > > **India**really believes them. The > > > evidence that Hindus were equally culpable for the destruction of > > > temples > > > and viharas, similar to the large scale destruction of Hindu temples > > > by the > > > various Muslim dynasties is simply untenable. Though the Marxist > > > historians > > > in **India** use the case of King Harsh in **Kashmir**, it is a rare > > > historical exception, certainly not proof of a legacy of Hindu-driven > > > carnage. Yet the historians who make these claims have failed to > > > uncover any > > > real evidence to substantiate their theory of Hindu aggression. * > > > > > > Let us move on to see what an independent Belgian Indologist Keonraad > > > Elst has to say about claims made by Romila Thapar about Harsh's > > > iconoclasm.Thapar's claims seem to have found favour with Shudda for > > > they fall in line with his pre-determined understanding of Kalhana.* * > > > > > > *Kalhana's first-hand testimony:*** > > > > > > *Now, let us look into the historical references cited by Romila > > > Thapar. Of > > > Banabhatta's Harshacharita, concerning Harsha of Kanauj (r.606-647), I > > > have > > > no copy available here, so I will keep that for another paper. > > > Meanwhile, I > > > have been able to consult both the Sanskrit original and the English > > > translation of Kalhana's Rajatarangini, and that source provides a > > > clinching > > > testimony.* > > > > > > *Harsha or Harshadeva of **Kashmir** (r.1089-1111 ) has been called > > > the "Nero > > > of **Kashmir**", and this "because of his cruelty" ( S.B. > > > Bhattacherje: > > > Encyclopaedia of Indian Events and Dates, Sterling Publ., Delhi 1995, > > > p.A-20). > > > He is described by Kalhana as having looted and desecrated most Hindu > > > and > > > Buddhist temples in **Kashmir**, partly through an office which he had > > > > > > created, viz. the "officer for despoiling god-temples". The general > > > data on > > > 11th-century **Kashmir** already militate against treating him as a > > > typical > > > Hindu king who did on purely Hindu grounds what Muslim kings also did, > > > viz. > > > to destroy the places of worship of rival religions. For, **Kashmir** > > > had > > > already been occupied by Masud Ghaznavi, son of Mahmud, in 1034, and > > > Turkish > > > troops were a permanent presence as mercenaries to the king.* > > > > > > *Harsha was a fellow-traveller: not yet a full convert to Islam (he > > > still > > > ate pork, as per Rajatarangini 7:1149), but quite adapted to the > > > Islamic > > > ways, for "he ever fostered with money the Turks, who were his > > > centurions" > > > (7:1149). There was nothing Hindu about his iconoclasm, which targeted > > > Hindu > > > temples, as if a Muslim king were to demolish mosques rather than > > > temples. > > > All temples in his kingdom except four (enumerated in 7:1096-1098, two > > > of > > > them Buddhist) were damaged. This behaviour was so un-Hindu and so > > > characteristically Islamic that Kalhana reports: "In the village, the > > > town > > > or in Srinagara there was not one temple which was not despoiled by > > > the Turk > > > king Harsha." (7:1095)* > > > > > > *So there you have it: "the Turk king Harsha". Far from representing a > > > separate Hindu tradition of iconoclasm, Harsha of **Kashmir** was a > > > somewhat > > > peculiar (viz. fellow-traveller) representative of the Islamic > > > tradition of > > > iconoclasm. Like Mahmud Ghaznavi and Aurangzeb, he despoiled and > > > looted > > > Hindu shrines, not non-Hindu ones. Influenced by the Muslims in his > > > employ, > > > he behaved like a Muslim.* > > > > > > *And this is said explicitly in the text which Romila Thapar cites as > > > proving the existence of Hindu iconoclasm. If she herself has read it > > > at > > > all, she must be knowing that it doesn't support the claim she is > > > making. > > > Either she has just been bluffing, writing lies about Kalhana's > > > testimony in > > > the hope that her readers would be too inert to check the source. Or > > > she > > > simply hasn't read Kalhana's text in the first place. Either way, she > > > has > > > been caught in the act of making false claims about Kalhana's > > > testimony even > > > while denouncing others for not having checked with Kalhana. * > > > > > > *A.L.Basham* > > > > > > Thankfully I did get to read Basham's article titled*"Harsha of > > > **Kashmir**and the Iconoclast Ascetics" > > > * > > > > > > Basham writes and I quote"The dissolute king Harsha or Harshadeva(AD > > > 1089-1101),when in financial straits,was advised by his evil > > > counseller > > > Lotsdhara to restore his fortunes by looting the temples and melting > > > down > > > the images of the gods" > > > > > > It is evident from the sentence that it was financial problems (due to > > > various vices) that prompted him to resort to doing what he did. > > > > > > Although Basham contradicts himself later in the same article by > > > saying that > > > the motive could not be financial alone but he attributes it to King > > > enjoying acts of heresy.He even contradicts Aurel Stein's explanation > > > that > > > King had been under the influence of turuska's or (Muslims or > > > outsiders) who > > > in this case happened to be Muslims. > > > Even if we accept his explanation, there is nothing to prove that he > > > destroyed temples to promote his faith or ideology (Hinduism) while > > > the > > > contrary can be proved by the following verse from Kalhana's > > > Rajatarangni > > > Book 7 verse 1095 > > > > > > *"In the village, the town or in Srinagara there was not one temple > > > which > > > was not despoiled by the Turk king Harsha." * > > > > > > Kalhana calling him a turk (which was a synonym for > > > Muslim/outsider/foreigner in Kalhana's vocabulary.At many places > > > Kalhana > > > uses the term turuska's to describe Muslims.We will discuss the word > > > Turuska > > > in detail when we analyse Shudda's references to Rajatarangni. > > > > > > Although I do not completely agree with either Basham or Keonard > > > Elst,the > > > reasons for which are the following. > > > > > > 1.Koenard Elst has got it wrong that Kashmir was conquered by Masud of > > > Ghaznvi in 1034.There are no direct/indirect references or credible > > > sources > > > of history to prove that fact.I agree with Shudda when he says that > > > Islamic > > > rule was still some two centuries away. > > > > > > 2.Basham's assertion that we should look to Ajivikas as Harsh's source > > > of > > > his iconoclasm also seems to be a far fetched argument.Shudda himself > > > concludes his argument by stating the following"Basham's > > > argument,albeit > > > speculative,is less reliant on conjecture than the automatic > > > identification > > > of Turuska with Muslim that bedevils the other efforts to wrestle with > > > the > > > complexity of his reign that I have referred to above" > > > > > > Irrespective of the arguments set forth by Romila Thapar,Basham,Elst > > > and > > > others it is conclusively proved in case of Harsha that although he > > > did > > > destroy temples and Viharas both but the reason was not to promote > > > Hinduism > > > or to subjugate Buddhism.What however can be argued is that he may be > > > doing > > > at the behest of whom Kalhana calls Turks(outsiders/foreigners who > > > were > > > Muslims in this case) what later Muslim kings did.ie.Try and Destroy > > > the > > > very root of Hinduism in Sarada Desha. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Rashneek Kher > > > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > +919811047132 > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > > > Search. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 From alice at tank.tv Fri Jan 11 18:34:48 2008 From: alice at tank.tv (Alice O'Reilly) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:04:48 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Submit your list now to www.tank.tv and be part of Ian White's show, The Whole World! Message-ID: <442eb4460801110504m5c3a1ee6sb9ac64db89abaa86@mail.gmail.com> The Whole World Curated by Ian White 1st January 2008 – 1st March 2008 The Whole World is a list of lists: a programme of artists' film and video and an interactive online exhibition. 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A platform for contemporary moving images. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From turbulence at turbulence.org Fri Jan 11 23:20:14 2008 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:50:14 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Networked_Music_Review Commission: "You're Not My Father" by Paul Slocum Message-ID: <008d01c8547a$7f295e60$7d7c1b20$@org> January 11, 2008 Networked_Music_Review Commission: "You're Not My Father" by Paul Slocum http://turbulence.org/works/notmyfather/ Needs Quicktime Plugin "You're Not My Father" is composed of a sequence of recreations of a 10 second scene from the television show "Full House," overlaid with sound loops from the scene's original music. The crews who re-shot the scene were recruited through Internet message boards and Craigslist; each was paid $150. Instructions for shooting the scene and delivering the footage were issued to the crews. To-date, the project includes participants from Austin, Cincinnati, Chicago, Dallas, Denton, London, and San Francisco. You can read more about the process here: http://tinyurl.com/2qd3nw Although the commission money has been exhausted, Slocum is still accepting submissions. If you are interested in participating, read the PDF document on the website. Your footage will be added to the video sequence online and exhibited in future gallery exhibitions. "You're Not My Father" is included in Slocum's solo show "More House" which opens tonight at Dunn and Brown Contemporary, 5020 Tracy Street, Dallas, Texas. "You're Not My Father" is a 2007 commission of New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc. for Networked_Music_Review. It was made possible with funding from the New York State Music Fund, established by the New York State Attorney General at Rockefeller Philanthropy Advisors. BIOGRAPHY Paul Slocum is a musician and new media artist living in Dallas. Computers and computer culture are often the medium and subject of his work. Some of his projects are "The Dot Matrix Synth", an 80's dot matrix printer with re-programmed firmware to transform it into a musical instrument, "The Century Callback Project", a phone number that calls you back 8 times in a century, and "The Time-Lapse Homepage", a video made with HTML. He is also half of the "Tree Wave" project that creates music and video with obsolete assembly-language-programmed computer and video game gear. Paul is the director and co-founder of "And/Or Gallery" in Dallas, a gallery that specializes in new media artwork. Some of Paul's performances and exhibitions include Transitio MX in Mexico City, The New Museum of Contemporary Art, Deitch Projects, and Eyebeam in New York, Le Confort Moderne in France, README 2005 in Denmark, and The Liverpool Biennial. For more Networked_Music_Review Commissions please visit http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review/tags/nmr_commission Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 12 14:56:14 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:26:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Surat: Entry in the city In-Reply-To: <9fa0b1fd12e68db5f061ec5917001734@sarai.net> Message-ID: <780619.19487.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Sadan A good on-line resource for Ezekiel: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/books/mahfil/toc.html?volume=11 Some of my favourites from his series called "Poster Prayers": No 20 Confiscate my passport. Lord, I don't want to go abroad. Let me find my song Where I belong. No 9 Do not choose me, 0 Lord. to carry out thy pruposes. I'm quite worthy, of course, but I have my own purposes. You have plenty of volunteers to choose from, Lord, Why pick on me, the selfish one? O well, if you insist, I'll do your will. Please try to make it coincide with mine. No1 Kick me around a bit more, O Lord. I see at last there's no other way for me to learn your simplest truths. No 4 No Lord, not the fruit of action is my motive. But do you really mind half a bite of it? It tastes so sweet, and I'm so hungry. No 5 Let me be, O Lord, the Camel of the Higher Income Group who passes smoothly through the eye of that needle. No 6 The price of wisdom is too high, but folly is expensive too. Strike a bargain with me, Lord. I'm not a man of ample means. No 8 THE SENSUALITY OF TRUTH Freshen for me, Lord, every hackneyed truth, and make her open like a virgin to her lover, nervously, but with the first thrill of making it at last. No 11 From theorising to practise From illusion to reality From folly to wisdom And back to theorising Illusion and folly Has been my way, O Lord Forgive me. I have to sing The song of my Experience I'm not yet ready to be cured. No 14 Protect my children from my secret wish to make them over in my image and illusion Let them move to the music that they love, dissonant, perhaps, to me. No 19 Not only a new poem but new poetry by a new man -- if this is not a dream, Lord, the time is ripe, give me the Word. Kshmendra Kaul "sadan at sarai.net" wrote: "Surat? Ah yes, Once only I stayed in Surat with family members of my uncle's very old friend, his wife was cooking nicely... that was long time ago..." For the full poem see, http://audiopoetry.wordpress.com/2007/08/22/goodbye-party-for-miss-pushpa-ts Like many other crucial functions, cities have been sites of memories too. The memory of this city of Surat comes alive at the moment of departure of Miss Pushpa, in this poem by Nissim Ezekiel. It is a "good bye party for miss Pushpa T.S." 'She is departing for foreign'. The poet writes, "Miss Pushpa is coming from very high family. Her father was renowned advocate in Bulsar or Surat, I am not remembering now which place". As a history student, my immidiate impulsive responsibility is to find the date when this poem was composed, at least date of of publication is necessary. The geographical setting of this party, the social environment, the literary form and the affective charge are some of the primary areas needed to be attended by any researcher. I am informed, "Ezekiel( 24December 1924- 9 January 2004) belonged to Mumbai's tiny, Marathi-speaking Bene Israel Jewish community, which never experienced anti-semitism. They were descended from oil-pressers who sailed from Galilee around 150BC, and, shipwrecked off the Indian subcontinent, settled, intermarried and forgot their Hebrew, yet maintained the Sabbath. There were 20,000 Bene Israel in India 60 years ago; now, only 5,000 remain". He stayed while his relatives left gradually for Israel. This same Guardian article by Lawrence Joffe( 9March, 2004) that maps his life sketch also informs that "Ezekiel's poetry described love, loneliness, lust, creativity and political pomposity, human foibles and the "kindred clamour" of urban dissonance". I want to know more on this poet and his poems. But I am more interested to know about Bene Israel Jewish community in India, particulary in western part of this country. The linkages between this community and the city of Surat. However, before moving to a rapidly declining community and its association with Surat, that boasts its multi-cultural and multi-ethnic past ties, A brief pause at memory, literature and the city would be more pertinant. This is not merely because we began thinking about Miss Pushpa as a moment when the memory about the city came alive, memory of a visit to Surat. This is also because the space of the city of Surat is grounded and translated in and through the memories of specific experiences( i.e. visit to a fmaily, nicely cooked food etc.) and figures (family members, uncle's old friend, figure of a wife through the act of cooking etc) and we come face to face with the placeness about the city. This transition from the space to place-ness is mediated here through the memory randered in specfic literary form, poetry. The question that needs attention is how to conceptualise this relation between the city, memory and literature in general and with poetry in particular. Any comment is welcome as the project is at its infant stage. sadan. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. From apnawritings at yahoo.co.in Sun Jan 13 15:12:02 2008 From: apnawritings at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 09:42:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Non-archival history? Here it is. Message-ID: <653957.70140.qm@web8504.mail.in.yahoo.com> [This post and the subsequent series -- is dedicated to Partha Chatterjee, Gautam Bhadra and Tapati Guhathakurta who taught this odd and unworthy student of theirs -historiography in 1997-98 and to Mahmood Faruqui, Sadan Jha, Prem Chandavarkar and Ritwik Bhattacharya who have pursued –even while disagreeing-- an energetic discussion on the subject on this List and outside.) As all of you know --but because this mail is also being sent to many others ( not at one go to manage the number of CC or there will be mail errors) who may not have been aware of what was going on here at the SARAI-CSDS Reader’s List, let me preface the present offering by saying a few introductory words. For quite some years –in my engagement with the Neo-Hegelians of the 19th century I confronted and studied in some detail what is known as the Hegelian mode of ‘philosophical history.’ The relevance was further accentuated by the ravaging postcolonial critiques of Hegel staged by Ranajit Guha to Gayatri Spivak—which were –though mistaken on many counts ( I shall show that in the second part of this post) were enough to show how much of this Hegelian heritage lives. But while contemporaneously, philosophical history has been perverted to stand for intellectual history or the history of ideas ( though some like Alisdair MacIntyre still practice ‘philosophical history’) and is thus an accepted fact in its anonymity, the mainstream of disciplinary practice, pedagogy and research of history, knee deep in the positivistic, scientific sand of sources which have been museumised in the archives ( despite all critiques), has been reluctant enough to negotiate with the fact ( which is why the Subalterns were reproached of not going to the archives), that there was and there are still types of history/historiography which are not dependent on the archives. Simply put, there are non-archival concept based histories. And may I reiterate that this kind of history is dangerous to say the least ( in the portion quoted below don’t take Hegel’s use of the word tyranny too lightly). It is this kind of history where the worldly reality ( if there is one) is forced to conform to the concept; it fashions the future accordingly. Marx’s eternal threat that the world has to gain a certain form of consciousness whether it is willing or not is a demonstration of the above approach. I show—elsewhere in the main text—Marx is the best example of a philosophical historian and whom (if not Hegel) the newspapers ( as today’s archival elements) are compelled to remember—whether they are willing or not. And in all this, where does Hegel live? Isn’t it in Marx himself? As a question –and in pursuance of a conversation with Mahmood Faruqui –I had submitted this as an agenda to the list readers and some of my friends. With reference to that discussion pursued on the List and to be fair to it, it must be acknowledged that there is a fresh breath of air and which, I think, is very very significant. A brand of brilliant, young and emerging historians, architects are trying to suggest an other way. They seem to be vouching for a phenomenological transformation of the historical archival object by relating to them as a part of experiencing it in a different way and interrogating whether this relating is at all separate, in terms of essence, in other forms of collections ( Sadan Jha), or invoking the phenomenological version of historical time ( Ritwik Bhattacharya) and thus a subjective vigil or alertness ( Prem Chandavarkar) in the use of the archives merging in the grand suggestion of Mahmood Faruqui that conceptual labour of the negative and the positive labour of the archive may both be accommodated, because, he might say now-inspired by his friends, the fracture does not happen in the experiencing subject and the time of the archive ( or the archival objects) may not be a separate time. Now, what I see in the above is a ‘reconstruction’ of the archive and the attendant problems of the above I shall again address and argue in the article being drafted. But what Hegel could have said while he was pitting philosophical thought and historiographical facts as antagonistic and marrying them in philosophical history—unaware of Prem, Sadan, Ritwik and Mahmood of 2007, I can guess, “My dear friends, this reconstruction or transformation that you are attempting to, is achieved by thought itself. Only in the realm of pure thought or notion that these distinctions ( experiencing subject and experienced object) are erased. So if you acknowledge this and Arnab calls you a band of ashamed but clever and cunning philosophical historians entering through the back door [ because debunking archives (currently as they are named, claimed, used and enforced by the establishment) publicly might be a problem to your career], I’ll not object.” Now, this is enough fuel for my friends and the Readers shall wait and shall see who wins ( not in terms of earthly gains ( Namrata) of course, that way you all are on the victory stands already). So, we start by giving a definition of philosophical history as proposed by Hegel and in the next part we shall address the postcolonial critiques of the same. I. “ The subject of this course of Lectures is the Philosophical History of the World. And by this must be understood, not a collection of general observations respecting it, suggested by the study of its records, and proposed to be illustrated by its facts, but Universal History itself”(p.1)[1] . Hegel suggests a three pronged approach to history or “methods of treating History” (1) of which Philosophical History forms the third. 1. Original History, 2. Reflective History, 3. Philosophical History. Having gone through the first two, they being interesting in themselves, Hegel now reflects on his project : philosophical history-- “The most general definition that can be given, is, that the Philosophy of History means nothing but the thoughtful consideration of it To insist upon Thought in this connection with history may, however, appear unsatisfactory. In this science it would seem as if Thought must be subordinate to what is given, to the realities of fact; that this is its basis and guide: while Philosophy dwells in the region of self-produced ideas, without reference to actuality. Approaching history thus prepossessed, speculation might be expected to treat it as a mere passive material; and so far from leaving it in its native truth, to force it into conformity with a tyrannous idea, and to construe it, as the phrase is, “ a priori.” But as it is the business of history simply to adopt into its records what is and has been, actual occurrences and transactions; and since it remains true to its character in proportion as it strictly adheres to its data, we seem to have in Philosophy, a process diametrically opposed to that of the historiographer(Ibid., pp. 8-9).” Now, this kind of history—whose description we’ve had from the father’s mouth have been critiqued from two directions :one, which was a 19th and early 20th century critique : that this is a speculative, theoretical and idealistic history; secondly, the contemporary post colonial critique which is here. II. The question can be stated in an other form : what happens when Hegel is taken to task for a kind of history/historiography he does not stand for? This can be had from the postcolonial critiques of Hegel with illustrative names running from Ranajit Guha, Dipesh Chakraborty to Gayatri Chakravory Spivak. It is only Partha Chaterjee who could be spared of this error. Because elsewhere I’ve elaborated on this premise, today I limit myself to quoting the relevant portion only ( excerpted from my ‘Reading Hegel in the Colonial Night’). “ The postcolonial critique of Hegel: The synopsis of that critique is – in the language of Spivak, Hegel is a strong moment in the “ epistemic graphing of imperialism” [2] Apart from Gayatri Spivak, Ranajit Guha[3] and Dipesh Chakraborty [4] have approved of such a critique in their works. Now, it would not be correct to or even it is perhaps not possible to engage with Hegel in the colonies without referring to the above critique; but as it will be shown, I’ll not require this critique at all. Not, because I think this critique, by and large, is misplaced. This misplacement emerges handy because its authors consider Hegel without his system[5]. But the point is not whether Hegel belongs to this or that kind of historiography. If there is any thing that Hegel belongs to, it would be a philosophical history which some including Hegel have observed as a kind of apriori history i.e., Hegel is said to have provided the transcendental conditions by which the experience of history or us experiencing history becomes possible. Following Gilian Rose, the historical apriori is the precondition of the possibility of actual histoical facts or values; “it is an apriori, that is, not empirical, for it is the basis of the possibility of experience” [6]. This experience is not dependent on the empirical realities of factual history because the latter kind of material history itself draws its categories or becomes possible by such already present forms. For instance we would not be able to make sense of anything called social facts if we did not presuppose the concept of society; similarly historical facts are nothing without the [apriori] concept of history. “It cannot be a fact, because it is the precondition of” [historical] “facts and hence cannot be one of them: it is a ‘transcendent objectivity [7]. ’’ Hegel is, infact, categorical on this: “ the philosophy of history is nothing more than the application of thought to history” [8]. This thought in Hegel is the self-activity of the concept which is independent of empirical data :“ Philosophy, is credited with independent thoughts produced by pure speculation, without reference to actuality [and]..forces it [ i.e., the latter] to conform to its preconceived notions and constructs a history a priori” [9]. That endorses the perceptive remark made by William Stace that civil society is a logical derivation and not a historical derivation in Hegel [10]. And the justification of such a logical derivation, Hegel is very clear on this, cannot “ come from the world of experience.” Because- “what philosophy understands by conceptual thinking is something quite different; in this case, comprehension is the activity of the concept itself, and not a conflict between a material and a form of separate origin. An alliance of disparates such as is found in pragmatic history is not sufficient for the purposes of conceptual thinking as practiced in philosophy; for the latter derives its content and material essentially from within itself. In this respect, therefore, despite the alleged links between the two. The original dichotomy remains: the historical event stands opposed to the independent concept” [11]. Therefore Hegel—given his project—should be judged for the correctness of the philosophical journey that he traces for autonomous concepts rather than being faulted for various cultural and ideological, anthropological reasons; we are perhaps forgetting his own objections made against such trials. The postcolonials have made Hegel –unlike Marx and for all the wrong reasons, stand on his head “requiring identity of the non-identical. Historic contingency and the concept are the more mercilessly antagonistic the more solidly they are entwined [12]. I think this last reprimand from Adorno forecloses the postcolonial critique[13] which prides itself by placing Hegel on the imperial theatre. With this I come to the end of this sample post where non-archival history no. 1( like hero no.1) has been referred to’ next will come sample of non-archival history no. 2 and what is that? [To be continued] with regards yours in discourse and debt Arnab Chatterjee ENDNOTES [1] Hegel, G.W.F. The Philosophy of History ( transl. J. Sibree), New York, 1956. [2]Spivak, A Critique of Postcolonial Reason, p.65. [3]Guha, History at the Limit of World-History. [4]Chakraborty, Habitations of Modernity: Essays in the wake of Subaltern Studies, p.81. [5]A plain historical approach may be corrected in the following way: Take for instance `the observation that the Hegelian construct of civil society exhibits exhortations that express Hegel’s fear of the rabble or the large mass of the poor people. Some with a historical nose smelled in this Hegel’s fear of the future industrial proletariat and the communist revolution. It has been recently pointed out by those historians with a different positivist nose-- how this is mistaken. Hegel’s face is rather turned towards the past. It is rather England’s poor law that could be said to have had a remote thematic reference. For some such corrections see Jones, “Hegel and the Economics of Civil Society”. The philosophical historical reading is offered by Stace above. [6]Rose, Hegel, p.14. [7]Ibid., p.15 [8]Hegel, Lectures on the philosophy of World History, p. 25. [9]Ibid., p.25. [10]Stace, The Philosophy of Hegel, p. 412. [11]Hegel, Lectures on the philosophy of World History , p.26, (italics mine). [12]Adorno, Negative Dialectics,p.359. [13]Gayatri Spivak in her more deconstructive moods remarks that there is a lack of fit between morphology and narrative in Hegel ( Spivak, Outside in the Teaching Machine, p.209). But, if that is so, then Hegel’s historical narrative should be assumed to have been belied by his abstruse and complicated logical machinery or morphology; in other words, Hegel could be shown to have been opposing his own historical conclusions. Among those who are known as “postcolonials” and have engaged with Hegel, it is, to my mind, only Partha Chatterjee (Chatterjee, ‘Communities and the Nation,’ pp.220-239) who has been able to avoid this trap by not trying to address Hegel historically. REFERENCES Adorno, Theodor. Negative Dialectics ( trans. E.B. Ashton), London, 1973. Chakraborty, Dipesh. Habitations of Moderntiy: Essays in the wake of Subaltern Studies, New Delhi, 2004. Chatterjee, Partha. ‘Communities and the Nation’, in his The Nation and its Fragments. Delhi, 1994, pp. 226-239. Guha, Ranajit. History at the Limit of World-History, Delhi, 2003. Hegel, G.W.F. ---------------- Hegel’s Philosophy of Mind, Translated from The Encyclopedia of the Philosophical Sciences (transl. William Wallace), Oxford, 1894. --------------The Philosophy of History ( transl. J. Sibree), New York, 1956. .. ---------------Lectures on the philosophy of World History, Introduction : Reason in History (trans. H.B. Nisbet), Cambridge, 1987. ----------------Phenomenology of Spirit (transl. A.V Miller), Delhi, 1998. Jones, Gareth Stedman. ‘Hegel and the Economics of Civil Society’, in Sudipta Kaviraj & Sunil Khilnani, eds., Civil Society: History and Possibilities, Cambridge, 2002, pp. 105-130. Rose, Gilian. Hegel : Contra Sociology, London, 1981. Spivak, Gayatri Chakravorty. Outside in the Teaching Machine, New York, 1993. ------------------------------------- A Critique of Postcolonial Reason: Towards a History of the Vanishing Present, Calcutta, 1999. Stace, William Terence. The Philosophy of Hegel: A Systematic Exposition, N.Y, 1955. ___________________________________ DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register From logos.theword at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 23:08:27 2008 From: logos.theword at gmail.com (Logos Theatre) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 23:08:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Non-archival history? Here it is. Message-ID: <33bc2ee60801130938n6c58f531v6f49e005cacfd2@mail.gmail.com> Ah, what fools these mortals be! A Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 09:42:02 +0000 (GMT) > From: ARNAB CHATTERJEE > Subject: [Reader-list] Non-archival history? Here it is. > To: reader-list at sarai.net, mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com, > sadan at sarai.net, prem.cnt at gmail.com, 0supplement at gmail.com > Cc: shuddha at sarai.net, jeebesh at sarai.net > Message-ID: <653957.70140.qm at web8504.mail.in.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > [This post and the subsequent series -- is dedicated > to Partha Chatterjee, Gautam Bhadra and Tapati > Guhathakurta who taught this odd and unworthy student > of theirs -historiography in 1997-98 and to Mahmood > Faruqui, Sadan Jha, Prem Chandavarkar and Ritwik > Bhattacharya who have pursued –even while > disagreeing-- an energetic discussion on the subject > on this List and outside.) > > As all of you know --but because this mail is also > being sent to many others ( not at one go to manage > the number of CC or there will be mail errors) who may > not have been aware of what was going on here at the > SARAI-CSDS Reader's List, let me preface the present > offering by saying a few introductory words. > For quite some years –in my engagement with > the Neo-Hegelians of the 19th century I confronted and > studied in some detail what is known as the Hegelian > mode of 'philosophical history.' The relevance was > further accentuated by the ravaging postcolonial > critiques of Hegel staged by Ranajit Guha to Gayatri > Spivak—which were –though mistaken on many counts ( I > shall show that in the second part of this post) were > enough to show how much of this Hegelian heritage > lives. But while contemporaneously, philosophical > history has been perverted to stand for intellectual > history or the history of ideas ( though some like > Alisdair MacIntyre still practice 'philosophical > history') and is thus an accepted fact in its > anonymity, the mainstream of disciplinary practice, > pedagogy and research of history, knee deep in the > positivistic, scientific sand of sources which have > been museumised in the archives ( despite all > critiques), has been reluctant enough to negotiate > with the fact ( which is why the Subalterns were > reproached of not going to the archives), that there > was and there are still types of > history/historiography which are not dependent on the > archives. Simply put, there are non-archival concept > based histories. And may I reiterate that this kind of > history is dangerous to say the least ( in the portion > quoted below don't take Hegel's use of the word > tyranny too lightly). It is this kind of history > where the worldly reality ( if there is one) is forced > to conform to the concept; it fashions the future > accordingly. Marx's eternal threat that the world has > to gain a certain form of consciousness whether it is > willing or not is a demonstration of the above > approach. I show—elsewhere in the main text—Marx is > the best example of a philosophical historian and whom > (if not Hegel) the newspapers ( as today's archival > elements) are compelled to remember—whether they are > willing or not. And in all this, where does Hegel > live? Isn't it in Marx himself? > > As a question –and in pursuance of a > conversation with Mahmood Faruqui –I had submitted > this as an agenda to the list readers and some of my > friends. With reference to that discussion pursued on > the List and to be fair to it, it must be acknowledged > that there is a fresh breath of air and which, I > think, is very very significant. A brand of > brilliant, young and emerging historians, architects > are trying to suggest an other way. They seem to be > vouching for a phenomenological transformation of the > historical archival object by relating to them as a > part of experiencing it in a different way and > interrogating whether this relating is at all > separate, in terms of essence, in other forms of > collections ( Sadan Jha), or invoking the > phenomenological version of historical time ( Ritwik > Bhattacharya) and thus a subjective vigil or alertness > ( Prem Chandavarkar) in the use of the archives > merging in the grand suggestion of Mahmood Faruqui > that conceptual labour of the negative and the > positive labour of the archive may both be > accommodated, because, he might say now-inspired by > his friends, the fracture does not happen in the > experiencing subject and the time of the archive ( or > the archival objects) may not be a separate time. > Now, what I see in the above is a > 'reconstruction' of the archive and the attendant > problems of the above I shall again address and argue > in the article being drafted. But what Hegel could > have said while he was pitting philosophical thought > and historiographical facts as antagonistic and > marrying them in philosophical history—unaware of > Prem, Sadan, Ritwik and Mahmood of 2007, I can guess, > > "My dear friends, this reconstruction or > transformation that you are attempting to, is > achieved by thought itself. Only in the realm of pure > thought or notion that these distinctions ( > experiencing subject and experienced object) are > erased. So if you acknowledge this and Arnab calls you > a band of ashamed but clever and cunning philosophical > historians entering through the back door [ because > debunking archives (currently as they are named, > claimed, used and enforced by the establishment) > publicly might be a problem to your career], I'll not > object." > Now, this is enough fuel for my friends and > the Readers shall wait and shall see who wins ( not > in terms of earthly gains ( Namrata) of course, that > way you all are on the victory stands already). > > So, we start by giving a definition of philosophical > history as proposed by Hegel and in the next part we > shall address the postcolonial critiques of the same. > > I. > > " The subject of this course of Lectures is the > Philosophical History of the World. And by this must > be understood, not a collection of general > observations respecting it, suggested by the study of > its records, and proposed to be illustrated by its > facts, but Universal History itself"(p.1)[1] . > Hegel suggests a three pronged approach to history or > "methods of treating History" (1) of which > Philosophical History forms the third. > > 1. Original History, 2. Reflective History, 3. > Philosophical History. Having gone through the first > two, they being interesting in themselves, Hegel now > reflects on his project : philosophical history-- > > "The most general definition that can be given, is, > that the Philosophy of History means nothing but the > thoughtful consideration of it… To insist upon Thought > in this connection with history may, however, appear > unsatisfactory. In this science it would seem as if > Thought must be subordinate to what is given, to the > realities of fact; that this is its basis and guide: > while Philosophy dwells in the region of > self-produced ideas, without reference to actuality. > Approaching history thus prepossessed, speculation > might be expected to treat it as a mere passive > material; and so far from > leaving it in its native truth, to force it into > conformity with a tyrannous idea, and to construe it, > as the phrase is, " a priori." But as it is the > business of history simply to adopt into its records > what is and has been, actual occurrences and > transactions; and since it remains true to its > character in proportion as it strictly adheres to its > data, we seem to have in Philosophy, a process > diametrically opposed to that of the > historiographer(Ibid., pp. 8-9)." > Now, this kind of history—whose > description we've had from the father's mouth have > been critiqued from two directions :one, which was a > 19th and early 20th century critique : that this is a > speculative, theoretical and idealistic history; > secondly, the contemporary post colonial critique > which is here. > > II. > The question can be stated in an other form : what > happens when Hegel is taken to task for a kind of > history/historiography he does not stand for? This can > be had from the postcolonial critiques of Hegel with > illustrative names running from Ranajit Guha, Dipesh > Chakraborty to Gayatri Chakravory Spivak. It is only > Partha Chaterjee who could be spared of this error. > Because elsewhere I've elaborated on this premise, > today I limit myself to quoting the relevant portion > only ( excerpted from my 'Reading Hegel in the > Colonial Night'). > > "…The postcolonial critique of Hegel: The synopsis > of that critique is – in the language of Spivak, Hegel > is a strong moment in the " epistemic graphing of > imperialism" [2] Apart from Gayatri Spivak, Ranajit > Guha[3] and Dipesh Chakraborty [4] have approved of > such a critique in their works. Now, it would not be > correct to or even it is perhaps not possible to > engage with Hegel in the colonies without referring to > the above critique; but as it will be shown, I'll not > require this critique at all. Not, because I think > this critique, by and large, is misplaced. This > misplacement emerges handy because its authors > consider Hegel without his system[5]. > But the point is not whether Hegel belongs to this or > that kind of historiography. If there is any thing > that Hegel belongs to, it would be a philosophical > history which some including Hegel have observed as a > kind of apriori history i.e., Hegel is said to have > provided the transcendental conditions by which the > experience of history or us experiencing history > becomes possible. Following Gilian Rose, the > historical apriori is the precondition of the > possibility of actual histoical facts or values; "it > is an apriori, that is, not empirical, for it is the > basis of the possibility of experience" [6]. This > experience is not dependent on the empirical realities > of factual history because the latter kind of material > history itself draws its categories or becomes > possible by such already present forms. For instance > we would not be able to make sense of anything called > social facts if we did not presuppose the concept of > society; similarly historical facts are nothing > without the [apriori] concept of history. "It cannot > be a fact, because it is the precondition of" > [historical] "facts and hence cannot be one of them: > it is a 'transcendent objectivity [7]. '' Hegel is, > infact, categorical on this: " the philosophy of > history is nothing more than the application of > thought to history" [8]. This thought in Hegel is the > self-activity of the concept which is independent of > empirical data :" Philosophy, …is credited with > independent thoughts produced by pure speculation, > without reference to actuality…[and]..forces it [ > i.e., the latter] to conform to its preconceived > notions and constructs a history a priori" [9]. That > endorses the perceptive remark made by William Stace > that civil society is a logical derivation and not a > historical derivation in Hegel [10]. And the > justification of such a logical derivation, Hegel is > very clear on this, cannot " come from the world of > experience." Because- > > "what philosophy understands by conceptual thinking is > something quite different; in this case, comprehension > is the activity of the concept itself, and not a > conflict between a material and a form of separate > origin. An alliance of disparates such as is found > in pragmatic history is not sufficient for the > purposes of conceptual thinking as practiced in > philosophy; for the latter derives its content and > material essentially from within itself. In this > respect, therefore, despite the alleged links between > the two. The original dichotomy remains: the > historical event stands opposed to the independent > concept" [11]. > > Therefore Hegel—given his project—should be judged for > the correctness of the philosophical journey that he > traces for autonomous concepts rather than being > faulted for various cultural and ideological, > anthropological reasons; we are perhaps forgetting > his own objections made against such trials. The > postcolonials have made Hegel –unlike Marx and for > all the wrong reasons, stand on his head "requiring > identity of the non-identical. Historic contingency > and the concept are the more mercilessly antagonistic > the more solidly they are entwined [12]. I think this > last reprimand from Adorno forecloses the postcolonial > critique[13] which prides itself by placing Hegel on > the imperial theatre. > With this I come to the end of this > sample post where non-archival history no. 1( like > hero no.1) has been referred to' next will come sample > of non-archival history no. 2…and what is that? > > > [To be continued] > > with regards > yours in discourse and debt > Arnab Chatterjee > > ENDNOTES > [1] Hegel, G.W.F. The Philosophy of History ( transl. > J. Sibree), New York, 1956. > > [2]Spivak, A Critique of Postcolonial Reason, p.65. > > [3]Guha, History at the Limit of World-History. > > [4]Chakraborty, Habitations of Modernity: Essays in > the wake of Subaltern Studies, p.81. > > [5]A plain historical approach may be corrected in > the following way: Take for instance `the observation > that the Hegelian construct of civil society exhibits > exhortations that express Hegel's fear of the > rabble or the large mass of the poor people. Some > with a historical nose smelled in this Hegel's fear of > the future industrial proletariat and the communist > revolution. It has been recently pointed out by those > historians with a different positivist nose-- how this > is mistaken. Hegel's face is rather turned towards the > past. It is rather England's poor law that could be > said to have had a remote thematic reference. For some > such corrections see Jones, "Hegel and the Economics > of Civil Society". The philosophical historical > reading is offered by Stace above. > [6]Rose, Hegel, p.14. > > [7]Ibid., p.15 > > [8]Hegel, Lectures on the philosophy of World History, > p. 25. > > [9]Ibid., p.25. > > [10]Stace, The Philosophy of Hegel, p. 412. > > [11]Hegel, Lectures on the philosophy of World History > , p.26, (italics mine). > > [12]Adorno, Negative Dialectics,p.359. > > [13]Gayatri Spivak in her more deconstructive moods > remarks that there is a lack of fit between morphology > and narrative in Hegel ( Spivak, Outside in the > Teaching Machine, p.209). But, if that is so, then > Hegel's historical narrative should be assumed to have > been belied by his abstruse and complicated logical > machinery or morphology; in other words, Hegel could > be shown to have been opposing his own historical > conclusions. Among those who are known as > "postcolonials" and have engaged with Hegel, it is, > to my mind, only Partha Chatterjee (Chatterjee, > 'Communities and the Nation,' pp.220-239) who has been > able to avoid this trap by not trying to address Hegel > historically. > > > REFERENCES > > Adorno, Theodor. Negative Dialectics ( trans. E.B. > Ashton), London, 1973. > > Chakraborty, Dipesh. Habitations of Moderntiy: Essays > in the wake of Subaltern Studies, New Delhi, 2004. > > Chatterjee, Partha. 'Communities and the Nation', in > his The Nation and its Fragments. Delhi, 1994, pp. > 226-239. > > > Guha, Ranajit. History at the Limit of World-History, > Delhi, 2003. > > > Hegel, G.W.F. > ---------------- Hegel's Philosophy of Mind, > Translated from The Encyclopedia of the Philosophical > Sciences (transl. William Wallace), Oxford, 1894. > > --------------The Philosophy of History ( transl. J. > Sibree), New York, 1956. > .. > ---------------Lectures on the philosophy of World > History, Introduction : Reason in History (trans. H.B. > Nisbet), Cambridge, 1987. > ----------------Phenomenology of Spirit (transl. A.V > Miller), Delhi, 1998. > > > Jones, Gareth Stedman. 'Hegel and the Economics of > Civil Society', in Sudipta Kaviraj & Sunil Khilnani, > eds., Civil Society: History and Possibilities, > Cambridge, 2002, pp. 105-130. > > > Rose, Gilian. Hegel : Contra Sociology, London, 1981. > > Spivak, Gayatri Chakravorty. Outside in the Teaching > Machine, New York, 1993. > ------------------------------------- A Critique of > Postcolonial Reason: Towards a History of the > Vanishing Present, Calcutta, 1999. > > Stace, William Terence. The Philosophy of Hegel: A > Systematic Exposition, N.Y, 1955. > > > ___________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click > away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > reader-list mailing list > reader-list at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 54, Issue 18 > ******************************************* > -- Logos Theatre In the beginning was the word No. 126, 3rd Main Road, Jayamahal Extension, Bangalore 560046 -------------------------------------------------------- If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all. Since no man has aught of what he leaves, what is 't to leave betimes? Let be. From parthaekka at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 09:11:55 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:11:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and Magnitude-III In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70801112019o23e19f33j45cd82776946e180@mail.gmail.com> References: <32144e990801092105x3a2640c1h734620e01c1085f1@mail.gmail.com> <332513.7419.qm@web45515.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70801100016g1c831af6k23a34d71646b19ee@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990801102006k776cfc2exaaeb212b04e10029@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70801112019o23e19f33j45cd82776946e180@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990801131941k691119edlf75910a5e7b6cd33@mail.gmail.com> Hi Pawan, History is always recreated on biased views of the person who is chronicling it. Look at something as recent as India's independence struggle in the eyes of the Indians, the eyes of the British and the eyes of Bangladesh and Pakistan. We are no longer slaves of anyone except our own shackles of caste, religion and hatred that we throw up to seclude ourselves. And what invaders are you talking about? The ones ages ago who have become integrated into India - including some that the Thai premier met in Arunachal a few days back? And how far in history are you going to go? Till the Aryans who sidelined the Dravids? How far will you 'de-construct'? Or do you want to look at where we are today and where we want to go? Rgds, Partha ....................... On Jan 12, 2008 9:49 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Partha , > > When you say that you have no issue with a re-created history" , it sounds > defeating.And defeatist attitude has to be given up. > > We no longer are slaves of Turks and Afghans. > > And you can not deny the fact that those were the invaders. > > Pawan > > > On 1/11/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > If you notice my response, and you have read it, do let me know where I > > have denigrated Rashneek or claimed that he is incorrect. > > > > I have no issue with the 're-created history' or otherwise. > > > > What I have objected to is the casting of Muslims as invaders or > > foreigners. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ........................... > > > > On Jan 10, 2008 1:46 PM, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Hello Partha , > > > > > > We must apprecaite Rashneek who must have spent a huge time and > > > countered an attempt by "someone" to re-create history.Rashneek has > > > bought to us the reality which gives an indepth knowledge about Kashmirs > > > hostory , which was mis represented by "someone" with little knowledge of > > > the particular issue. > > > > > > Let us atleast be honest in admitting the facts . > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > On 1/10/08, we wi wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Partha, > > > > > > > > I saw and read your earlier remarks and comments over > > > > pawan,chanchal mails. I feel happy(myself and of-course on behalf of > > > > Rashneek) if you would have directly responded to the 5 volumes of rashneek > > > > mails instead of responding this way. I am damn sure that Rashneek will be > > > > more joyful for his efforts in bringing the tormented age old history point > > > > wise in front of the readers by eradicating the myths created because of > > > > ABCD reasons, provided you would have responded directly to his mails. I > > > > would like to question you why don't you come-out on your own-way, instead > > > > of responding to somebody. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me quote from rashneeks "Iconoclasm in Kashmir-Motives and > > > > Magnitude-III" > > > > > > > > " > > > > > when you are born in a certain land you learn so many things > > > > unwittingly." > > > > > > > > If I slightly change this , > > > > > > > > If you are born in a certain land and > > > > 1) You didn't learn few things at least(not so many) its your > > > > fault. > > > > 2) Though you learn but kept aside again its your fault(you > > > > learned but kept them out > > > > you wasted the time in learning them first and for not > > > > using them second). > > > > > > > > > > > > Though NALANDA and TAKSHASILA(TAXILA) universities burnt and > > > > literature ruined in places like Kashmir along with people, there are books > > > > kept at different places. Rajatarangini is just a rain drop in the SANSKRIT > > > > LITERATURE OCEAN. Apart from the Vedas to Ramayana,Mahabharata,Bhagavat > > > > every thing is Sanskrit. If I start mentioning the great people,book names > > > > the list is so vast. VALMIKI,VYASA, ... to ADI > > > > SANKARA,PATANJALI,CHARAKA,JAIMINI,ARYABHATTA,CHANAKYA,BANA, > > > > GUNADYA,PANINI,KALIDAS,BHOJA,BHATRUHARI,KRISHNADEVARAYA... so many > > > > kings,poets,scholars. The reasons are different for these people to become > > > > poets and kings > > > > and so as their actions(Not the way so called historians noted and > > > > the people used the caste and religion and using still) irrespective or > > > > their caste and religion. When come to know about the reality and the motive > > > > one should feel a sorry for their anguish and illiteracy > > > > to understanding the things, but by the time the successfull > > > > destruction will be completed. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you read GURUCHARITRA (come to know about the stories at least) > > > > either Sanskrit/Devanagari or whatever language version, you come to know > > > > that MLECCHA is the term used in that book as well. Like that many words and > > > > idioms are just mingled in common peoples life imposed directly from > > > > Sanskrit. > > > > > > > > " >There are so many phrases and idioms in the language that tell us > > > > of our past,the >bedtime stories are a world of knowledge which no book of > > > > history can suffice for.The >vakhs and shrukhs that ordinary people > > > > on the street quote tell us about the socio-cultural >aspect of the age when > > > > that vakh/shrukh was written." > > > > > > > > I inspire for the above said lines because they are true and stand > > > > for all practical purposes. Sanskrit ruled India irrespective of place. The > > > > regional languages are created either dumping the Sanskrit words and > > > > terminology used in those days fully or partially. If your 2nd language is > > > > either Sanskrit or your mother tongue then you can come to know about the > > > > things and of course you can gain knowledge outside as well (whether it is > > > > use full or not). > > > > > > > > --Next coming back to the argument, > > > > > > > > People ransacked India created new history and campaigning it in > > > > their own way feeling that they did best, but they fail to think and locate > > > > about the original preserved history and the exact meanings. > > > > > > > > Who is stopping you or anybody to participate in country development > > > > or Nation building in a CONSTRUCTIVE WAY? Does it really happening the > > > > answer is a definite no, rather the destruction is still going on in more > > > > worsen way. You could not create a counter logic like the one you framed in > > > > this mail or any other mails to support whatever I don't wish to point them > > > > out repeatedly. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Dhatri. > > > > > > > > Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > 1. 'Mlechha' was a derogatory term to describe people who 'did not > > > > > > > > follow Vedic principles' much as 'Firang' is used today for > > > > 'foreigners'. > > > > It was also used to refer to Meat Eaters which covers a vast > > > > part of > > > > the tribals who can not by any stretch of imagination be > > > > considered > > > > foreigners. > > > > > > > > 2. The usage of the word 'Turk' for Harsha was a distancing by the > > > > local > > > > populace in those days to disassociate the King from the trend. > > > > However, > > > > if 'foreigner;, 'outsider' and 'mlechha' are considered, then > > > > Harsha was by > > > > birth and place certainly a Hindu and not a Turk. In fact, even > > > > as per the > > > > Rajatarangini he ate pork and was not a full convert to Islam. > > > > > > > > 3. Rashneek's debate is not about outsiders/foreigners. It is about > > > > the destruction > > > > of religious structures - which Harsha as a Hindu ruler did to > > > > both Temples and > > > > Buddhist monastries irrespective of what relegion they followed. > > > > > > > > 4. Even if we reach a point where we accept conversion (thereby > > > > happily throwing > > > > Harsha out of the 'Hindu' group and disowning his activities), > > > > it does not make > > > > Muslims outsiders. Other than any one else who may have > > > > converted for whatever > > > > reason, "the Turk king Harsha" as he's referred to in the > > > > Rajatarangini was certainly > > > > a local and cannot be considered an outsider however his > > > > behaviour may have been. > > > > We may want to disown him, but that does not change Harsha's > > > > origin. > > > > > > > > 5. All that aside, let us for a moment agree that Islamic > > > > iconoclasts did despoil > > > > some temples some decades or centuries back. Now what? Are we > > > > going to rebuild > > > > all those temples after researching how many were destroyed and > > > > where? While we > > > > are going about doing that will we remove the British and > > > > Portugese structures all over > > > > India - including the North/South Blocks and a host of other > > > > buildings. That sounds > > > > rather ridiculous to me and if that time & money is going to be > > > > spent I do hope it's > > > > spent on education, hospitals, infrastructure and tons of other > > > > areas that this country > > > > needs shoring up on. > > > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > > ................................ > > > > > > > > On Jan 9, 2008 5:53 PM, we wi < dhatr1i at yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > Hi Rashneek, > > > > > > > > This is really Great work and nice explanation on myths. Not only > > > > the terms turk produces the meaning (outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims > > > > in this case) but also the term mleccha will also produce the same > > > > meaning(outsiders/foreigners who were Muslims in this case) widely used to > > > > refer in times. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Dhatri. > > > > > > > > > > > > rashneek kher wrote: > > > > PART-III > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am devoting this part to Harsha alone.This is because he has been > > > > pulled out of the historical wilderness time and again by the > > > > Marxist > > > > historians.This one example is used as a counterweight the huge > > > > historical evidence that we have to support religious persecution > > > > and > > > > Iconoclasm by hundreds of muslim rulers all over south Asia and not > > > > just Kashmir alone. > > > > > > > > It seems as if just because Harsha did what Muslim rulers followed > > > > as > > > > a matter of policy and an instrument of abuse we are to condone > > > > their > > > > acts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harsha"The Iconoclast" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let us first see how Shudda looks at Kalhana especially in the > > > > context > > > > of the above discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My learned friend writes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *"We know that Kalhana describes Sankaravarman as a destroyer of > > > > sixty > > > > > > > > four temples. But the motives for this destruction, which Kalhana > > > > > > > > attributes to greed alone, can be read differently"* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This leaves me thoroughly confused for one hand Shudda questions > > > > Kalhana's un-biased view on History as you will read above he raises > > > > a > > > > question mark and says"*can be read differently"* while at the > > > > beginning of second series of his essay he says > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Kalhana's importance for the understanding of early medieval > > > > history in > > > > **South Asia** is unquestionable. Especially because his writing > > > > embodies a > > > > > > > > singular and significant model for historiographic investigation and > > > > > > > > accounting, rare in the pre - Islamicate cultures of **South Asia**. > > > > He > > > > > > > > describes and lists the events that mark the reigns of rulers > > > > without > > > > > > > > favour or prejudice. He makes an effort at consistence and attempts > > > > to > > > > > > > > maintains a rigourous standard as far as chronology and the duration > > > > of > > > > > > > > reigns is concerned. His descriptions of everyday life, of the > > > > seasons, > > > > > > > > of customs, religious beliefs, rituals, war and political intrigue - > > > > all > > > > > > > > furnish valuable details about what life would have been like in > > > > **Kashmir**. He explicitly marks a distinction between the mythic > > > > and the > > > > > > > > historic phases of his narrative. He is especially important because > > > > > > > > reading Kalhana, one finds it impossible to state that iconoclasm > > > > and > > > > > > > > secterian strife was the special preserve of Muslim rulers in > > > > **South > > > > > > > > Asia**, as Hindutva apologists are wont to do.* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please read the last line carefully.I post it again for the benefit > > > > of > > > > the readers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *He is especially important because > > > > > > > > reading Kalhana, one finds it impossible to state that iconoclasm > > > > and > > > > > > > > secterian strife was the special preserve of Muslim rulers in > > > > **South > > > > > > > > Asia**, as Hindutva apologists are wont to do.* > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > *Now let Shudda show me a line wherein I have said that Iconoclasm > > > > and > > > > Secterian Strife was the preserve of Muslim Rulers alone* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To make my point of view clear on this I am quoting myself from an > > > > article I wrote long back for Greater Kashmir(a separatist leaning > > > > newspaper published from Srinagar).This shall prove beyond doubt > > > > what > > > > my take is on the kings of Kashmir,irrespective of their religious > > > > leanings.. > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > *"Only when one looks back into the pages of history one realizes > > > > how > > > > unfortunate have we been. Except for three kings ie Lalitaditya > > > > Muktapida, > > > > Avantivarman and Sultan Zainulabidin in whose regimes we saw > > > > development and > > > > prosperity in Kashmir,we have mostly been ruled by cruel > > > > despots.Till the > > > > advent of Islam we have been ruled by kings who were more or less > > > > indigenous > > > > rulers except for Asoka and rulers of Kushana dynasty. With the > > > > advent of > > > > Islam, we had kings of foreign origin ruling us. However the uniting > > > > thread > > > > among all these kings was their cruelty and in dealing with their > > > > subjects." > > > > * > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > *Romila Thapar and Harbans Mukhiya-Lies and Un-substantiated Claims* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let us examine what Romila Thapar,A L Basham and Mukhiya have to say > > > > about iconoclasm by Hindu kings in Kashmir in their various > > > > articles.Although I could not put my hands on all the articles which > > > > Shudda had referred to yet I did read enough to get a hang of what > > > > Romila Thapar(whose knowledge and erudition of Sanskrit has always > > > > been a question mark) and Mukhiya whose Marxist leftist credentials > > > > have never been under question.So we kind of know which side of > > > > their > > > > bread is buttered.We will try and understand what Basham says about > > > > "Harsha the Iconoclast".I am leaving Mukhiya alone but if need be > > > > ,we > > > > will discuss his understanding of Harsha as well.I will also like > > > > the > > > > forum to read through this piece of extremely unbiased work by an > > > > American Student. > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > *Puzzling Dimensions and Theoretical Knots in my **Graduate** > > > > **School** Research By Yvette Claire Rosser, M.A., Ph.D. * > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > *http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/s_es/s_es_rosse_puzzle_frameset.htm* > > > > > > > > *A few days later I met with Professor Romila Thapar and told her > > > > Prof. > > > > Mukhia had told me that she could provide information substantiate > > > > the > > > > hypothesis that Hindu rulers in the past had regularly destroyed > > > > temples in > > > > neighboring kingdoms. She said that she had not written anything but > > > > that > > > > Richard Eaton, an American scholar had recently written about this > > > > phenomenon in the introduction of his latest book. * > > > > > > > > *A few months later in the December 9 and 16 editions of Frontline > > > > published > > > > by the Leftist leaning editor N. Ram of The Hindu newspaper Dr. > > > > Eaton did > > > > publish a long article in two parts that discussed in detail the > > > > destruction > > > > and desecration of various temples during the Medieval Period. In > > > > his > > > > article, Eaton attempted to prove the assertion made by Dr. Mukhia's > > > > and his > > > > colleagues. However it was argued, Eaton failed to understand the > > > > difference > > > > in scale and magnitude between the few times Hindus raided the > > > > temples of > > > > other kings, and the much more wide spread and architecturally > > > > devastating > > > > attacks from Muslim armies.* > > > > > > > > *I spoke with Professors Thapar and Mukhia and told them that I had > > > > heard > > > > about Harsha in **Kashmir**, recounted by the poet Kalhana in the > > > > 'Rajtarangini'. Harsha destroyed some temples and viharas, but most > > > > scholars > > > > consider Harsha's actions as exceptions to the usual practice. I > > > > pointed out > > > > that all of the literature indicates that Harsha was definitely only > > > > looting > > > > the temples for gold and riches, not desecrating them for > > > > ideological > > > > reasons. Though the result is the same, the temples were attacked, > > > > the > > > > intent and the scale of the destruction was very different. **I also > > > > mentioned that there seems to have been one or two instances in > > > > Rajasthan > > > > and **Gujarat** where competing Maharajas raided temples in the > > > > neighboring > > > > kingdom and stole a murti (consecrated statue) which was considered > > > > to be > > > > endowed with powerful attributes. Then, bringing it back to his own > > > > kingdom, > > > > the king erected a new and more fabulous temple for the murti. This > > > > type of > > > > vandalism is a very different case, the murti was removed as a > > > > trophy not as > > > > an unholy thing to be desecrated. In the accounts that I had heard, > > > > the king > > > > who had looted the temple of his adversary did not throw the > > > > captured statue > > > > in the roadway or bury it into the staircase of a religious > > > > structure in his > > > > kingdom to be trod upon, but, interestingly, he built an even > > > > grander temple > > > > and had it installed with fanfare. Though the actions may have > > > > similarities, > > > > the motivations were very different. * > > > > > > > > *I also suggested that these types of attacks on temples were not > > > > representative of usual practice, but in fact were very much the > > > > exception > > > > to the rule. Even after reading the Eaton article, I was not > > > > impressed by > > > > the meager evidence. Though the article very few verifiable examples > > > > offered > > > > to substantiate this often-repeated claim that Hindus were just a > > > > guilty as > > > > Muslims for breaking statues and destroying temples. I told > > > > suggested to > > > > several Leftist scholars in Indian that they should stop using that > > > > tact > > > > about the Hindus destroying temples, because hardly anyone in > > > > **India**really believes them. The > > > > evidence that Hindus were equally culpable for the destruction of > > > > temples > > > > and viharas, similar to the large scale destruction of Hindu temples > > > > by the > > > > various Muslim dynasties is simply untenable. Though the Marxist > > > > historians > > > > in **India** use the case of King Harsh in **Kashmir**, it is a rare > > > > historical exception, certainly not proof of a legacy of > > > > Hindu-driven > > > > carnage. Yet the historians who make these claims have failed to > > > > uncover any > > > > real evidence to substantiate their theory of Hindu aggression. * > > > > > > > > Let us move on to see what an independent Belgian Indologist > > > > Keonraad > > > > Elst has to say about claims made by Romila Thapar about Harsh's > > > > iconoclasm.Thapar's claims seem to have found favour with Shudda for > > > > they fall in line with his pre-determined understanding of Kalhana.* > > > > * > > > > > > > > *Kalhana's first-hand testimony:*** > > > > > > > > *Now, let us look into the historical references cited by Romila > > > > Thapar. Of > > > > Banabhatta's Harshacharita, concerning Harsha of Kanauj (r.606-647), > > > > I have > > > > no copy available here, so I will keep that for another paper. > > > > Meanwhile, I > > > > have been able to consult both the Sanskrit original and the English > > > > > > > > translation of Kalhana's Rajatarangini, and that source provides a > > > > clinching > > > > testimony.* > > > > > > > > *Harsha or Harshadeva of **Kashmir** (r.1089-1111 ) has been called > > > > the "Nero > > > > of **Kashmir**", and this "because of his cruelty" ( S.B. > > > > Bhattacherje: > > > > Encyclopaedia of Indian Events and Dates, Sterling Publ., Delhi > > > > 1995, p.A-20). > > > > He is described by Kalhana as having looted and desecrated most > > > > Hindu and > > > > Buddhist temples in **Kashmir**, partly through an office which he > > > > had > > > > created, viz. the "officer for despoiling god-temples". The general > > > > data on > > > > 11th-century **Kashmir** already militate against treating him as a > > > > typical > > > > Hindu king who did on purely Hindu grounds what Muslim kings also > > > > did, viz. > > > > to destroy the places of worship of rival religions. For, > > > > **Kashmir** had > > > > already been occupied by Masud Ghaznavi, son of Mahmud, in 1034, and > > > > Turkish > > > > troops were a permanent presence as mercenaries to the king.* > > > > > > > > *Harsha was a fellow-traveller: not yet a full convert to Islam (he > > > > still > > > > ate pork, as per Rajatarangini 7:1149), but quite adapted to the > > > > Islamic > > > > ways, for "he ever fostered with money the Turks, who were his > > > > centurions" > > > > (7:1149). There was nothing Hindu about his iconoclasm, which > > > > targeted Hindu > > > > temples, as if a Muslim king were to demolish mosques rather than > > > > temples. > > > > All temples in his kingdom except four (enumerated in 7:1096-1098, > > > > two of > > > > them Buddhist) were damaged. This behaviour was so un-Hindu and so > > > > characteristically Islamic that Kalhana reports: "In the village, > > > > the town > > > > or in Srinagara there was not one temple which was not despoiled by > > > > the Turk > > > > king Harsha." (7:1095)* > > > > > > > > *So there you have it: "the Turk king Harsha". Far from representing > > > > a > > > > separate Hindu tradition of iconoclasm, Harsha of **Kashmir** was a > > > > somewhat > > > > peculiar (viz. fellow-traveller) representative of the Islamic > > > > tradition of > > > > iconoclasm. Like Mahmud Ghaznavi and Aurangzeb, he despoiled and > > > > looted > > > > Hindu shrines, not non-Hindu ones. Influenced by the Muslims in his > > > > employ, > > > > he behaved like a Muslim.* > > > > > > > > *And this is said explicitly in the text which Romila Thapar cites > > > > as > > > > proving the existence of Hindu iconoclasm. If she herself has read > > > > it at > > > > all, she must be knowing that it doesn't support the claim she is > > > > making. > > > > Either she has just been bluffing, writing lies about Kalhana's > > > > testimony in > > > > the hope that her readers would be too inert to check the source. Or > > > > she > > > > simply hasn't read Kalhana's text in the first place. Either way, > > > > she has > > > > been caught in the act of making false claims about Kalhana's > > > > testimony even > > > > while denouncing others for not having checked with Kalhana. * > > > > > > > > *A.L.Basham* > > > > > > > > Thankfully I did get to read Basham's article titled*"Harsha of > > > > **Kashmir**and the Iconoclast Ascetics" > > > > * > > > > > > > > Basham writes and I quote"The dissolute king Harsha or Harshadeva(AD > > > > 1089-1101),when in financial straits,was advised by his evil > > > > counseller > > > > Lotsdhara to restore his fortunes by looting the temples and melting > > > > down > > > > the images of the gods" > > > > > > > > It is evident from the sentence that it was financial problems (due > > > > to > > > > various vices) that prompted him to resort to doing what he did. > > > > > > > > Although Basham contradicts himself later in the same article by > > > > saying that > > > > the motive could not be financial alone but he attributes it to King > > > > enjoying acts of heresy.He even contradicts Aurel Stein's > > > > explanation that > > > > King had been under the influence of turuska's or (Muslims or > > > > outsiders) who > > > > in this case happened to be Muslims. > > > > Even if we accept his explanation, there is nothing to prove that he > > > > destroyed temples to promote his faith or ideology (Hinduism) while > > > > the > > > > contrary can be proved by the following verse from Kalhana's > > > > Rajatarangni > > > > Book 7 verse 1095 > > > > > > > > *"In the village, the town or in Srinagara there was not one temple > > > > which > > > > was not despoiled by the Turk king Harsha." * > > > > > > > > Kalhana calling him a turk (which was a synonym for > > > > Muslim/outsider/foreigner in Kalhana's vocabulary.At many places > > > > Kalhana > > > > uses the term turuska's to describe Muslims.We will discuss the word > > > > Turuska > > > > in detail when we analyse Shudda's references to Rajatarangni. > > > > > > > > Although I do not completely agree with either Basham or Keonard > > > > Elst,the > > > > reasons for which are the following. > > > > > > > > 1.Koenard Elst has got it wrong that Kashmir was conquered by Masud > > > > of > > > > Ghaznvi in 1034.There are no direct/indirect references or credible > > > > sources > > > > of history to prove that fact.I agree with Shudda when he says that > > > > Islamic > > > > rule was still some two centuries away. > > > > > > > > 2.Basham's assertion that we should look to Ajivikas as Harsh's > > > > source of > > > > his iconoclasm also seems to be a far fetched argument.Shuddahimself > > > > concludes his argument by stating the following"Basham's > > > > argument,albeit > > > > speculative,is less reliant on conjecture than the automatic > > > > identification > > > > of Turuska with Muslim that bedevils the other efforts to wrestle > > > > with the > > > > complexity of his reign that I have referred to above" > > > > > > > > Irrespective of the arguments set forth by Romila Thapar,Basham,Elst > > > > and > > > > others it is conclusively proved in case of Harsha that although he > > > > did > > > > destroy temples and Viharas both but the reason was not to promote > > > > Hinduism > > > > or to subjugate Buddhism.What however can be argued is that he may > > > > be doing > > > > at the behest of whom Kalhana calls Turks(outsiders/foreigners who > > > > were > > > > Muslims in this case) what later Muslim kings did.ie.Try and Destroy > > > > the > > > > very root of Hinduism in Sarada Desha. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Rashneek Kher > > > > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > > +919811047132 > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > > > > Search. > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919811047132 > > > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From info at kurator.org Sun Jan 13 14:47:19 2008 From: info at kurator.org (info) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 09:17:19 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Call for proposals: Competition ARTE 2.0 VOCENTZ Message-ID: FYI Apologies fro xposting --------------------------------------------------------------- Competition ARTE 2.0 VOCENTO: the art of exhibiting art online --------------------------------------------------------------- Open call for proposals by VOCENTO in collaboration with ARCO 2008 International Contemporary Art Fair, Madrid. VOCENTO and ARCO announce a competition of ideas to provide art galleries with web solutions responding to the concept of Web 2.0, and to provide opportunities to enhance their online presence and networking potential. VOCENTO and ARCO invite proposals for innovative and experimental online platforms and effective web tools to foster and stimulate the presence, exhibition, communication and management of art on the Internet.The proposal, a complete web concept, or environment, or tool, will be an application to be implemented by art galleries. Total award is 15.000 euros. Deadline for proposals is 31st January 2008 at 17:00 hours (GMT+1) For more information on terms and conditions and how to submit, please go to http://www.vocento.com/English/accion-cultural/arte-web.html http://www.vocento.com/Castellano/accion-cultural/arte-web.html ------ End of Forwarded Message _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From jeebesh at sarai.net Tue Jan 15 12:25:30 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh Bagchi) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 11:55:30 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Road usage data - delhi Message-ID: <09181DA2-3E21-44CD-88E4-0B09A67E492F@sarai.net> dear all, here is an interesting data-set of road usage in delhi from CSE. best jeebesh A reality check: There are 1.5 million private cars on the road. 3 million two-wheelers, a lot of these will convert to cheapest small cars And only 6,800 city buses. The city adds 41 vehicles every hour, 31% of them being private cars. Last 5 years have seen a 43% increase in vehicles, and 9% in road space. Road is already 20% of land area. Green area is only 10% There is a limit in extending roads and flyovers. Our collective automobile experience ends with traffic jam. And slower vehicles spew more. We should be ashamed that all we gained out of converting public transport to CNG has been offset by rising number of cars! A car pays Rs 400 a year as tax, while a bus is charged Rs 13,000 Government subsidises private vehicles with low tax, cheapest parking lots. Public investment in roads and flyovers are cornered by private cars only. Private cars take up 75% of the road space, while buses get only 8% Hence, there is no money left for public transport investment. All these, while private transport only 20% of passengers, and buses still carry 61% We are stuck in a jam. CSE From anansi1 at earthlink.net Wed Jan 16 02:09:32 2008 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:39:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Reader-list] Sundance Film Festival - Hasan Elahari's Panoptic Inversion Message-ID: <15534083.1200429572953.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Sundance Film Festival is setting up a digital cinema at the New Frontiers section of the Festival. There'll be quite a few people from around the world flying in for the premier of several films. Bangladeshi artist Hasan Elahari's project "Tracking Transience" might be of interest to the list. He's premiering it at Sundance. If you're around or online, check it out. www.trackingtransience.net Here's a somewhat corny Wired Magazine Article about his project: The Visible Man: An FBI Target Puts His Whole Life Online by Clive Thompson http://www.wired.com/techbiz/people/magazine/15-06/ps_transparency Hasan Elahi whips out his Samsung Pocket PC phone and shows me how he's keeping himself out of Guantanamo. He swivels the camera lens around and snaps a picture of the Manhattan Starbucks where we're drinking coffee. Then he squints and pecks at the phone's touchscreen. "OK! It's uploading now," says the cheery, 35-year-old artist and Rutgers professor, whose bleached-blond hair complements his fluorescent-green pants. "It'll go public in a few seconds." Sure enough, a moment later the shot appears on the front page of his Web site, TrackingTransience.net. There are already tons of pictures there. Elahi will post about a hundred today — the rooms he sat in, the food he ate, the coffees he ordered. Poke around his site and you'll find more than 20,000 images stretching back three years. Elahi has documented nearly every waking hour of his life during that time. He posts copies of every debit card transaction, so you can see what he bought, where, and when. A GPS device in his pocket reports his real-time physical location on a map. Elahi's site is the perfect alibi. Or an audacious art project. Or both. The Bangladeshi-born American says the US government mistakenly listed him on its terrorist watch list — and once you're on, it's hard to get off. To convince the Feds of his innocence, Elahi has made his life an open book. Whenever they want, officials can go to his site and see where he is and what he's doing. Indeed, his server logs show hits from the Pentagon, the Secretary of Defense, and the Executive Office of the President, among others. The globe-hopping prof says his overexposed life began in 2002, when he stepped off a flight from the Netherlands and was detained at the Detroit airport. He says FBI agents later told him they'd been tipped off that he was hoarding explosives in a Florida storage unit; subsequent lie detector tests convinced them he wasn't their man. But with his frequent travel — Elahi logs more than 70,000 air miles a year exhibiting his art work and attending conferences — he figured it was only a matter of time before he got hauled in again. He might even be shipped off to Gitmo before anyone realized their mistake. The FBI agents had given him their phone number, so he decided to call before each trip; that way, they could alert the field offices. He hasn't been detained since. So it dawned on him: If being candid about his flights could clear his name, why not be open about everything? "I've discovered that the best way to protect your privacy is to give it away," he says, grinning as he sips his venti Black Eye. Elahi relishes upending the received wisdom about surveillance. The government monitors your movements, but it gets things wrong. You can monitor yourself much more accurately. Plus, no ambitious agent is going to score a big intelligence triumph by snooping into your movements when there's a Web page broadcasting the Big Mac you ate four minutes ago in Boise, Idaho. "It's economics," he says. "I flood the market." Elahi says his students get it immediately. They've grown up spilling their guts online — posting Flickr photo sets and confessing secrets on MySpace. He figures the day is coming when so many people shove so much personal data online that it will put Big Brother out of business. For now, though, Big Brother is still on the case. At least according to Elahi's server logs. "It's really weird watching the government watch me," he says. But it sure beats Guantanamo. From anansi1 at earthlink.net Wed Jan 16 02:28:56 2008 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:58:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Reader-list] Sundance Film Festival - Antarctica - The Sound of Ice Message-ID: <16344106.1200430736908.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Oh yeah - my film is also at Sundance. I'm just coming up for air after my film shoot in Antarctica. The film "Terra Nova" is headlining Sundance's Digital Cinema Section. The project will tour to several museums and galleries over the next year. The New Frontiers section of Sundance is artists like myself, Doug Aitken, Hasan Elahi, Yang Fudong, and others. It was curated by Shari Frilot. More info on Sundance Digital Cinema: http://www.sundance.org/festival/film_events/new_frontier_on_main.asp You can view the trailer for Terra Nova at: http://www.djspooky.com/art/terra_nova.php The film is screening Sundance on Tuesday Jan 22nd at 8pm New Frontiers (Sundance Digital Cinema) on Main Street 333 Main Street (lower level) Paul Artists Statement/Museum Description Terra Nova: The Antarctic Suite a Film and installation by by Paul D. Miller aka Dj Spooky In 1949 the British composer Ralph Vaughn Williams created a metaphorical portrait of Antarctica entitled Sinfonia Antarctica that he began with a poem adapted from the poet Shelley’s Prometheus Unbound: To suffer woes which hope thinks infinite. To forgive wrongs darker than death or night, To defy power which seems omnipotent, Neither to change, nor falter, nor repent: This… is to be Good, great and joyous, beautiful and free, This is alone life, joy, empire and victory. As the only uninhabited continent, Antarctica has no government and belongs to no country. Various countries claim areas of the landmass, but essentially, the area between 90°W and 150°W is the only part of Antarctica, indeed the only solid land on Earth, not claimed by any country. In the era of satellites, wireless networks, and fiber optic cables, its ever harder to see the vision that Vaughn described for his orchestral work. What DJ Spooky’s Antarctic Suite: Ice Loops portrays is a land made of complex ecological interactions. Instead of a metaphor, the composition aims to go to Antarctica and record the sound of the continent. More than 170 million years ago, Antarctica was part of the supercontinent Gondwanaland. Over time Godwin broke apart and Antarctica as we know it today was formed around 25 million years ago. Using digital media, video, and high tech recording equipment, DJ Spooky will go to Antarctica and paint an acoustic portrait of this rapidly transforming environment. In the steps of environmentalists like Al Gore, or even films like March of the Penguins and Happy Feet, he aims to bring Antarctica to the contemporary imagination by digitally reconstructing it: historical maps, travelers journals over the last several centuries, crystalline ice’s resonant frequencies, and the Earth’s magnet poles - will all be paints for the audio palette he will work with. Essentially, he will go to the continent and create a recording studio that will be portable enough to move all over the territory. Think of it as sampling the environment with sound – something that Vaughn could only do with metaphor in 1949. The difference Is that Miller approaches the task with a technological background that fosters a direct interaction with the territory that inspires the composition. For most people, thoughts of exploration in Antarctica typically center on dogs, skis, snowshoes, and people in fur, not paintbrushes or sketch pads. Actually, art has always had a prominent place in the exploration of Antarctica. Photography began in the 1830's and only in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries was it possible to take photographs in cold environments. Therefore, it was common for explorers of polar regions to be accompanied by artists to visually record the sights and phenomena for research and for popular distribution in books and articles. In the modern era, artists continue to venture to Antarctica. Their intent is not simply to record but to provide visual interpretations of the continent, based on direct observations combined with artistic talent. The Antarctic has many faces: it’s usually thought of as a huge pile of ice that somehow stays afloat at the bottom of the world. In different ages, before humanity had mapped out the world, it would have simply been beyond most maps and most ideas about what made up the geography of the world. As such, the Antarctic is one of the most unknown territories in the world today. The term “Antarctica” comes from the Greek term “antarktikos” meaning, simply “opposite to the Arctic.” For the purposes of this project, the idea of looking at the places beyond the realms of everyday life in the industrialized 21st century world, puts the continent front and center into the idea of making a map of the continent in sound. There have been several recent project’s that reflect artists interest in Antarctic and Arctic regions: Pierre Huyghe’s "A Journey That Wasn’t" for the Whitney Biennial 2006, and Isaac Julien’s "True North" multimedia installation that focused on the African American Polar explorer, Matthew Henson, who accompanied Robert Peary, and who was one of the first people to reach the North Pole. Miller creates a separate scenario from those envisioned by these artists by focusing on the acoustic qualities of ice and its relationship to geography. The Antarctic Suite will be an acoustic portrait of a rapidly transforming continent made of ice and condensation. In many ways, because there is little rain, the interior of the continent is technically one of the largest deserts in the world. What The Antarctic Suite proposes to do is explore the realm of fiction and ideas that underlie almost all perceptions of Antarctica – from the interior desert plains, to the Transantarctic Mountains that divide the continent, the Suite will take samples of the different conditions, and transform them into multi-media portraits with music composed from the different geographies that make up the land mass. From sadan at sarai.net Wed Jan 16 13:14:36 2008 From: sadan at sarai.net (sadan at sarai.net) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:14:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] archives and history : break the singular question dear In-Reply-To: <653957.70140.qm@web8504.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <653957.70140.qm@web8504.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4370b1a312b64eef61615acb78956c32@sarai.net> "The question of Experience can be approached nowadays only with an acknowledgement that it is no longer accessible to us. For just as moience has likewise been expropriated(13)".Agamben's language is seductively simplistic. Both Agamben and Foucault (Agamben is here with Foucault as he is considered as post-Foucauldian scholar and also because he himself has acknowledged Foucault a lot) have declarations. However, while Focault's declarations are at the cost of human experiences, Agamben places the experiential at the centre stage of his scholarship. These days I am reading Giorgio Agamben, "Infancy and History: Essays on the Destruction of Experience" and found some relevance for our ongoing dialogue on archives that is going on on the reader-list. After reading yesterday's post by Arnab, I actually wanted to write about self-obsession but that will wait for some time. I am also not going to summerise Agamben's argument but would liket o cite him without engaging with him here. He writes that "the expropriation of experience was implicit in the founding project of modern science( 17)". He argues that "the idea of experience as seperate from knowledge has become so alien to us that we have forgotten that until the birth of modern science experience and science each had their own place"(18).He further writes that "in its search for certainty, modern science abolishes this sepration and makes experience the locus--the 'method'; that is, the pathway-of knowledge"(19). We may walk with Agamben but not now. Agamben is referred here as he strikes at the core, breaking the singularity of the question , something I have learned from his earlier book, "Witness and the Archives"a dn something that I am trying to when engaging with the question of memory and the archives. Namrata was deadright when she pointed that I am trying to meet both ends and also rightly observed that I go wild. This is where I wanted to reflect on self-obsession. this is important if I lack it I will lack the experience of listening ( something that remains my anchor while engaging with the issue of archives and the memory). Again I am not going into details demonstrating the relevance of self-obsession or whether this is the right word to deploy as a methodological tool when like me all the researchers go back almost mechanical way to recordings and experiences of listening to recover details. The key difference lies in experiencing our own attempts of recovering details and the manner in which detailing influence the self of the researcher. Self-obsession is an obsesseed engagement with the self. it is experiencing the self at specific moment and for specific purpose. But how does it help to understand the relationship between memory and the archives. Something I keep working on and I do not have any readymade answer to it. I would again like to To remind Arnab about my project. This is because he is also self-obsessed in a different way. He is interested in philosophical history but I often wonder how he fathoms out that disassociating archives from history will effect my career. For the clarification please find below my specific concerns( So far I have been clarifying my concerns only and my sincerre apology to readers who do not see it as a fruitful excercise): For some time I have been thinking on the relationship between memory and the archives. This concern is an outcome of my earlier work, documenting lives of those who underwent the trauma of partition of Indian subcontinent during 1946-1950. The project was aimed at documenting lives and making an archive (the project was initiated by Ashis Nandy at CSDS, Delhi). I worked as field researcher in that project. At this point, I am interested to understand a. how ideas and notions of the archives circulate and practised outside the disciplinary domain of history; b. linkages between the domains of experience and the archives; c. how archives are perceived and parctised in non-western pasts. any suggestion, comment, reference is welcome. warmly in disagreement and opening up the debate beyond the omnipresent history, sadan. On 3:12 pm 01/13/08 ARNAB CHATTERJEE wrote: > [This post and the subsequent series -- is dedicated > to Partha Chatterjee, Gautam Bhadra and Tapati > Guhathakurta who taught this odd and unworthy student > of theirs -historiography in 1997-98 and to Mahmood > Faruqui, Sadan Jha, Prem Chandavarkar and Ritwik > Bhattacharya who have pursued –even while > disagreeing-- an energetic discussion on the subject > on this List and outside.) > > As all of you know --but because this mail is also > being sent to many others ( not at one go to manage > the number of CC or there will be mail errors) who may > not have been aware of what was going on here at the > SARAI-CSDS Reader’s List, let me preface the present > offering by saying a few introductory words. > For quite some years –in my engagement with > the Neo-Hegelians of the 19th century I confronted and > studied in some detail what is known as the Hegelian > mode of ‘philosophical history.’ The relevance was > further accentuated by the ravaging postcolonial > critiques of Hegel staged by Ranajit Guha to Gayatri > Spivak—which were –though mistaken on many counts ( I > shall show that in the second part of this post) were > enough to show how much of this Hegelian heritage > lives. But while contemporaneously, philosophical > history has been perverted to stand for intellectual > history or the history of ideas ( though some like > Alisdair MacIntyre still practice ‘philosophical > history’) and is thus an accepted fact in its > anonymity, the mainstream of disciplinary practice, > pedagogy and research of history, knee deep in the > positivistic, scientific sand of sources which have > been museumised in the archives ( despite all > critiques), has been reluctant enough to negotiate > with the fact ( which is why the Subalterns were > reproached of not going to the archives), that there > was and there are still types of > history/historiography which are not dependent on the > archives. Simply put, there are non-archival concept > based histories. And may I reiterate that this kind of > history is dangerous to say the least ( in the portion > quoted below don’t take Hegel’s use of the word > tyranny too lightly). It is this kind of history > where the worldly reality ( if there is one) is forced > to conform to the concept; it fashions the future > accordingly. Marx’s eternal threat that the world has > to gain a certain form of consciousness whether it is > willing or not is a demonstration of the above > approach. I show—elsewhere in the main text—Marx is > the best example of a philosophical historian and whom > (if not Hegel) the newspapers ( as today’s archival > elements) are compelled to remember—whether they are > willing or not. And in all this, where does Hegel > live? Isn’t it in Marx himself? > > As a question –and in pursuance of a > conversation with Mahmood Faruqui –I had submitted > this as an agenda to the list readers and some of my > friends. With reference to that discussion pursued on > the List and to be fair to it, it must be acknowledged > that there is a fresh breath of air and which, I > think, is very very significant. A brand of > brilliant, young and emerging historians, architects > are trying to suggest an other way. They seem to be > vouching for a phenomenological transformation of the > historical archival object by relating to them as a > part of experiencing it in a different way and > interrogating whether this relating is at all > separate, in terms of essence, in other forms of > collections ( Sadan Jha), or invoking the > phenomenological version of historical time ( Ritwik > Bhattacharya) and thus a subjective vigil or alertness > ( Prem Chandavarkar) in the use of the archives > merging in the grand suggestion of Mahmood Faruqui > that conceptual labour of the negative and the > positive labour of the archive may both be > accommodated, because, he might say now-inspired by > his friends, the fracture does not happen in the > experiencing subject and the time of the archive ( or > the archival objects) may not be a separate time. > Now, what I see in the above is a > ‘reconstruction’ of the archive and the attendant > problems of the above I shall again address and argue > in the article being drafted. But what Hegel could > have said while he was pitting philosophical thought > and historiographical facts as antagonistic and > marrying them in philosophical history—unaware of > Prem, Sadan, Ritwik and Mahmood of 2007, I can guess, > > “My dear friends, this reconstruction or > transformation that you are attempting to, is > achieved by thought itself. Only in the realm of pure > thought or notion that these distinctions ( > experiencing subject and experienced object) are > erased. So if you acknowledge this and Arnab calls you > a band of ashamed but clever and cunning philosophical > historians entering through the back door [ because > debunking archives (currently as they are named, > claimed, used and enforced by the establishment) > publicly might be a problem to your career], I’ll not > object.” > Now, this is enough fuel for my friends and > the Readers shall wait and shall see who wins ( not > in terms of earthly gains ( Namrata) of course, that > way you all are on the victory stands already). > > So, we start by giving a definition of philosophical > history as proposed by Hegel and in the next part we > shall address the postcolonial critiques of the same. > > I. > > “ The subject of this course of Lectures is the > Philosophical History of the World. And by this must > be understood, not a collection of general > observations respecting it, suggested by the study of > its records, and proposed to be illustrated by its > facts, but Universal History itself”(p.1)[1] . > Hegel suggests a three pronged approach to history or > “methods of treating History” (1) of which > Philosophical History forms the third. > > 1. Original History, 2. Reflective History, 3. > Philosophical History. Having gone through the first > two, they being interesting in themselves, Hegel now > reflects on his project : philosophical history-- > > “The most general definition that can be given, is, > that the Philosophy of History means nothing but the > thoughtful consideration of it… To insist upon Thought > in this connection with history may, however, appear > unsatisfactory. In this science it would seem as if > Thought must be subordinate to what is given, to the > realities of fact; that this is its basis and guide: > while Philosophy dwells in the region of > self-produced ideas, without reference to actuality. > Approaching history thus prepossessed, speculation > might be expected to treat it as a mere passive > material; and so far from > leaving it in its native truth, to force it into > conformity with a tyrannous idea, and to construe it, > as the phrase is, “ a priori.” But as it is the > business of history simply to adopt into its records > what is and has been, actual occurrences and > transactions; and since it remains true to its > character in proportion as it strictly adheres to its > data, we seem to have in Philosophy, a process > diametrically opposed to that of the > historiographer(Ibid., pp. 8-9).” > Now, this kind of history—whose > description we’ve had from the father’s mouth have > been critiqued from two directions :one, which was a > 19th and early 20th century critique : that this is a > speculative, theoretical and idealistic history; > secondly, the contemporary post colonial critique > which is here. > > II. > The question can be stated in an other form : what > happens when Hegel is taken to task for a kind of > history/historiography he does not stand for? This can > be had from the postcolonial critiques of Hegel with > illustrative names running from Ranajit Guha, Dipesh > Chakraborty to Gayatri Chakravory Spivak. It is only > Partha Chaterjee who could be spared of this error. > Because elsewhere I’ve elaborated on this premise, > today I limit myself to quoting the relevant portion > only ( excerpted from my ‘Reading Hegel in the > Colonial Night’). > > “…The postcolonial critique of Hegel: The synopsis > of that critique is – in the language of Spivak, Hegel > is a strong moment in the “ epistemic graphing of > imperialism” [2] Apart from Gayatri Spivak, Ranajit > Guha[3] and Dipesh Chakraborty [4] have approved of > such a critique in their works. Now, it would not be > correct to or even it is perhaps not possible to > engage with Hegel in the colonies without referring to > the above critique; but as it will be shown, I’ll not > require this critique at all. Not, because I think > this critique, by and large, is misplaced. This > misplacement emerges handy because its authors > consider Hegel without his system[5]. > But the point is not whether Hegel belongs to this or > that kind of historiography. If there is any thing > that Hegel belongs to, it would be a philosophical > history which some including Hegel have observed as a > kind of apriori history i.e., Hegel is said to have > provided the transcendental conditions by which the > experience of history or us experiencing history > becomes possible. Following Gilian Rose, the > historical apriori is the precondition of the > possibility of actual histoical facts or values; “it > is an apriori, that is, not empirical, for it is the > basis of the possibility of experience” [6]. This > experience is not dependent on the empirical realities > of factual history because the latter kind of material > history itself draws its categories or becomes > possible by such already present forms. For instance > we would not be able to make sense of anything called > social facts if we did not presuppose the concept of > society; similarly historical facts are nothing > without the [apriori] concept of history. “It cannot > be a fact, because it is the precondition of” > [historical] “facts and hence cannot be one of them: > it is a ‘transcendent objectivity [7]. ’’ Hegel is, > infact, categorical on this: “ the philosophy of > history is nothing more than the application of > thought to history” [8]. This thought in Hegel is the > self-activity of the concept which is independent of > empirical data :“ Philosophy, …is credited with > independent thoughts produced by pure speculation, > without reference to actuality…[and]..forces it [ > i.e., the latter] to conform to its preconceived > notions and constructs a history a priori” [9]. That > endorses the perceptive remark made by William Stace > that civil society is a logical derivation and not a > historical derivation in Hegel [10]. And the > justification of such a logical derivation, Hegel is > very clear on this, cannot “ come from the world of > experience.” Because- > > “what philosophy understands by conceptual thinking is > something quite different; in this case, comprehension > is the activity of the concept itself, and not a > conflict between a material and a form of separate > origin. An alliance of disparates such as is found > in pragmatic history is not sufficient for the > purposes of conceptual thinking as practiced in > philosophy; for the latter derives its content and > material essentially from within itself. In this > respect, therefore, despite the alleged links between > the two. The original dichotomy remains: the > historical event stands opposed to the independent > concept” [11]. > > Therefore Hegel—given his project—should be judged for > the correctness of the philosophical journey that he > traces for autonomous concepts rather than being > faulted for various cultural and ideological, > anthropological reasons; we are perhaps forgetting > his own objections made against such trials. The > postcolonials have made Hegel –unlike Marx and for > all the wrong reasons, stand on his head “requiring > identity of the non-identical. Historic contingency > and the concept are the more mercilessly antagonistic > the more solidly they are entwined [12]. I think this > last reprimand from Adorno forecloses the postcolonial > critique[13] which prides itself by placing Hegel on > the imperial theatre. > With this I come to the end of this > sample post where non-archival history no. 1( like > hero no.1) has been referred to’ next will come sample > of non-archival history no. 2…and what is that? > > > [To be continued] > > with regards > yours in discourse and debt > Arnab Chatterjee > > ENDNOTES > [1] Hegel, G.W.F. The Philosophy of History ( transl. > J. Sibree), New York, 1956. > > [2]Spivak, A Critique of Postcolonial Reason, p.65. > > [3]Guha, History at the Limit of World-History. > > [4]Chakraborty, Habitations of Modernity: Essays in > the wake of Subaltern Studies, p.81. > > [5]A plain historical approach may be corrected in > the following way: Take for instance `the observation > that the Hegelian construct of civil society exhibits > exhortations that express Hegel’s fear of the > rabble or the large mass of the poor people. Some > with a historical nose smelled in this Hegel’s fear of > the future industrial proletariat and the communist > revolution. It has been recently pointed out by those > historians with a different positivist nose-- how this > is mistaken. Hegel’s face is rather turned towards the > past. It is rather England’s poor law that could be > said to have had a remote thematic reference. For some > such corrections see Jones, “Hegel and the Economics > of Civil Society”. The philosophical historical > reading is offered by Stace above. > [6]Rose, Hegel, p.14. > > [7]Ibid., p.15 > > [8]Hegel, Lectures on the philosophy of World History, > p. 25. > > [9]Ibid., p.25. > > [10]Stace, The Philosophy of Hegel, p. 412. > > [11]Hegel, Lectures on the philosophy of World History > , p.26, (italics mine). > > [12]Adorno, Negative Dialectics,p.359. > > [13]Gayatri Spivak in her more deconstructive moods > remarks that there is a lack of fit between morphology > and narrative in Hegel ( Spivak, Outside in the > Teaching Machine, p.209). But, if that is so, then > Hegel’s historical narrative should be assumed to have > been belied by his abstruse and complicated logical > machinery or morphology; in other words, Hegel could > be shown to have been opposing his own historical > conclusions. Among those who are known as > “postcolonials” and have engaged with Hegel, it is, > to my mind, only Partha Chatterjee (Chatterjee, > ‘Communities and the Nation,’ pp.220-239) who has been > able to avoid this trap by not trying to address Hegel > historically. > > > REFERENCES > > Adorno, Theodor. Negative Dialectics ( trans. E.B. > Ashton), London, 1973. > > Chakraborty, Dipesh. Habitations of Moderntiy: Essays > in the wake of Subaltern Studies, New Delhi, 2004. > > Chatterjee, Partha. ‘Communities and the Nation’, in > his The Nation and its Fragments. Delhi, 1994, pp. > 226-239. > > > Guha, Ranajit. History at the Limit of World-History, > Delhi, 2003. > > > Hegel, G.W.F. > ---------------- Hegel’s Philosophy of Mind, > Translated from The Encyclopedia of the Philosophical > Sciences (transl. William Wallace), Oxford, 1894. > > --------------The Philosophy of History ( transl. J. > Sibree), New York, 1956. > .. > ---------------Lectures on the philosophy of World > History, Introduction : Reason in History (trans. H.B. > Nisbet), Cambridge, 1987. > ----------------Phenomenology of Spirit (transl. A.V > Miller), Delhi, 1998. > > > Jones, Gareth Stedman. ‘Hegel and the Economics of > Civil Society’, in Sudipta Kaviraj & Sunil Khilnani, > eds., Civil Society: History and Possibilities, > Cambridge, 2002, pp. 105-130. > > > Rose, Gilian. Hegel : Contra Sociology, London, 1981. > > Spivak, Gayatri Chakravorty. Outside in the Teaching > Machine, New York, 1993. > ------------------------------------- A Critique of > Postcolonial Reason: Towards a History of the > Vanishing Present, Calcutta, 1999. > > Stace, William Terence. The Philosophy of Hegel: A > Systematic Exposition, N.Y, 1955. > > > ___________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a > click away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.ne > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sadan at sarai.net Wed Jan 16 13:20:56 2008 From: sadan at sarai.net (sadan at sarai.net) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:20:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ignore last mail on archives and history In-Reply-To: <4370b1a312b64eef61615acb78956c32@sarai.net> References: <653957.70140.qm@web8504.mail.in.yahoo.com> <4370b1a312b64eef61615acb78956c32@sarai.net> Message-ID: "The question of Experience can be approached nowadays only with an acknowledgement that it is no longer accessible to us. For just as modern man has been deprived of his biography, his experience has likewise been expropriated(13)".Agamben's language is seductively simplistic. Both Agamben and Foucault (Agamben is here with Foucault as he is considered as post-Foucauldian scholar and also because he himself has acknowledged Foucault a lot) have declarations. However, while Focault's declarations are at the cost of human experiences, Agamben places the experiential at the centre stage of his scholarship. These days I am reading Giorgio Agamben,"Infancy and History: Essays on the Destruction of Experience" and found some relevance for our ongoing dialogue on archives that is going on on the reader-list. After reading yesterday's post by Arnab, I actually wanted to write about self-obsession but that will wait for some time. I am also not going to summerise Agamben's argument but would liket o cite him without engaging with him here. He writes that "the expropriation of experience was implicit in the founding project of modern science( 17)". He argues that "the idea of experience as seperate from knowledge has become so alien to us that we have forgotten that until the birth of modern science experience and science each had their own place"(18).He further writes that "in its search for certainty, modern science abolishes this sepration and makes experience the locus--the 'method'; that is, the pathway-of knowledge"(19). We may walk with Agamben but not now. Agamben is referred here as he strikes at the core, breaking the singularity of the question , something I have learned from his earlier book, "Witness and the Archives"a dn something that I am trying to when engaging with the question of memory and the archives. Namrata was deadright when she pointed that I am trying to meet both ends and also rightly observed that I go wild. This is where I wanted to reflect on self-obsession. this is important if I lack it I will lack the experience of listening ( something that remains my anchor while engaging with the issue of archives and the memory). Again I am not going into details demonstrating the relevance of self-obsession or whether this is the right word to deploy as a methodological tool when like me all the researchers go back almost mechanical way to recordings and experiences of listening to recover details. The key difference lies in experiencing our own attempts of recovering details and the manner in which detailing influence the self of the researcher. Self-obsession is an obsesseed engagement with the self. it is experiencing the self at specific moment and for specific purpose. But how does it help to understand the relationship between memory and the archives. Something I keep working on and I do not have any readymade answer to it. I would again like to To remind Arnab about my project. This is because he is also self-obsessed in a different way. He is interested in philosophical history but I often wonder how he fathoms out that disassociating archives from history will effect my career. For the clarification please find below my specific concerns( So far I have been clarifying my concerns only and my sincerre apology to readers who do not see it as a fruitful excercise): For some time I have been thinking on the relationship between memory and the archives. This concern is an outcome of my earlier work, documenting lives of those who underwent the trauma of partition of Indian subcontinent during 1946-1950. The project was aimed at documenting lives and making an archive (the project was initiated by Ashis Nandy at CSDS, Delhi). I worked as field researcher in that project. At this point, I am interested to understand a. how ideas and notions of the archives circulate and practised outside the disciplinary domain of history; b. linkages between the domains of experience and the archives; c. how archives are perceived and parctised in non-western pasts. any suggestion, comment, reference is welcome. warmly in disagreement and opening up the debate beyond the omnipresent history, sadan. On 3:12 pm 01/13/08 ARNAB CHATTERJEE wrote: > > [This post and the subsequent series -- is dedicated > > to Partha Chatterjee, Gautam Bhadra and Tapati > > Guhathakurta who taught this odd and unworthy student > > of theirs -historiography in 1997-98 and to Mahmood > > Faruqui, Sadan Jha, Prem Chandavarkar and Ritwik > > Bhattacharya who have pursued –even while > > disagreeing-- an energetic discussion on the subject > > on this List and outside.) > > > > As all of you know --but because this mail is also > > being sent to many others ( not at one go to manage > > the number of CC or there will be mail errors) who may > > not have been aware of what was going on here at the > > SARAI-CSDS Reader’s List, let me preface the present > > offering by saying a few introductory words. > > For quite some years –in my engagement with > > the Neo-Hegelians of the 19th century I confronted and > > studied in some detail what is known as the Hegelian > > mode of ‘philosophical history.’ The relevance was > > further accentuated by the ravaging postcolonial > > critiques of Hegel staged by Ranajit Guha to Gayatri > > Spivak—which were –though mistaken on many counts ( I > > shall show that in the second part of this post) were > > enough to show how much of this Hegelian heritage > > lives. But while contemporaneously, philosophical > > history has been perverted to stand for intellectual > > history or the history of ideas ( though some like > > Alisdair MacIntyre still practice ‘philosophical > > history’) and is thus an accepted fact in its > > anonymity, the mainstream of disciplinary practice, > > pedagogy and research of history, knee deep in the > > positivistic, scientific sand of sources which have > > been museumised in the archives ( despite all > > critiques), has been reluctant enough to negotiate > > with the fact ( which is why the Subalterns were > > reproached of not going to the archives), that there > > was and there are still types of > > history/historiography which are not dependent on the > > archives. Simply put, there are non-archival concept > > based histories. And may I reiterate that this kind of > > history is dangerous to say the least ( in the portion > > quoted below don’t take Hegel’s use of the word > > tyranny too lightly). It is this kind of history > > where the worldly reality ( if there is one) is forced > > to conform to the concept; it fashions the future > > accordingly. Marx’s eternal threat that the world has > > to gain a certain form of consciousness whether it is > > willing or not is a demonstration of the above > > approach. I show—elsewhere in the main text—Marx is > > the best example of a philosophical historian and whom > > (if not Hegel) the newspapers ( as today’s archival > > elements) are compelled to remember—whether they are > > willing or not. And in all this, where does Hegel > > live? Isn’t it in Marx himself? > > > > As a question –and in pursuance of a > > conversation with Mahmood Faruqui –I had submitted > > this as an agenda to the list readers and some of my > > friends. With reference to that discussion pursued on > > the List and to be fair to it, it must be acknowledged > > that there is a fresh breath of air and which, I > > think, is very very significant. A brand of > > brilliant, young and emerging historians, architects > > are trying to suggest an other way. They seem to be > > vouching for a phenomenological transformation of the > > historical archival object by relating to them as a > > part of experiencing it in a different way and > > interrogating whether this relating is at all > > separate, in terms of essence, in other forms of > > collections ( Sadan Jha), or invoking the > > phenomenological version of historical time ( Ritwik > > Bhattacharya) and thus a subjective vigil or alertness > > ( Prem Chandavarkar) in the use of the archives > > merging in the grand suggestion of Mahmood Faruqui > > that conceptual labour of the negative and the > > positive labour of the archive may both be > > accommodated, because, he might say now-inspired by > > his friends, the fracture does not happen in the > > experiencing subject and the time of the archive ( or > > the archival objects) may not be a separate time. > > Now, what I see in the above is a > > ‘reconstruction’ of the archive and the attendant > > problems of the above I shall again address and argue > > in the article being drafted. But what Hegel could > > have said while he was pitting philosophical thought > > and historiographical facts as antagonistic and > > marrying them in philosophical history—unaware of > > Prem, Sadan, Ritwik and Mahmood of 2007, I can guess, > > > > “My dear friends, this reconstruction or > > transformation that you are attempting to, is > > achieved by thought itself. Only in the realm of pure > > thought or notion that these distinctions ( > > experiencing subject and experienced object) are > > erased. So if you acknowledge this and Arnab calls you > > a band of ashamed but clever and cunning philosophical > > historians entering through the back door [ because > > debunking archives (currently as they are named, > > claimed, used and enforced by the establishment) > > publicly might be a problem to your career], I’ll not > > object.” > > Now, this is enough fuel for my friends and > > the Readers shall wait and shall see who wins ( not > > in terms of earthly gains ( Namrata) of course, that > > way you all are on the victory stands already). > > > > So, we start by giving a definition of philosophical > > history as proposed by Hegel and in the next part we > > shall address the postcolonial critiques of the same. > > > > I. > > > > “ The subject of this course of Lectures is the > > Philosophical History of the World. And by this must > > be understood, not a collection of general > > observations respecting it, suggested by the study of > > its records, and proposed to be illustrated by its > > facts, but Universal History itself”(p.1)[1] . > > Hegel suggests a three pronged approach to history or > > “methods of treating History” (1) of which > > Philosophical History forms the third. > > > > 1. Original History, 2. Reflective History, 3. > > Philosophical History. Having gone through the first > > two, they being interesting in themselves, Hegel now > > reflects on his project : philosophical history-- > > > > “The most general definition that can be given, is, > > that the Philosophy of History means nothing but the > > thoughtful consideration of it… To insist upon Thought > > in this connection with history may, however, appear > > unsatisfactory. In this science it would seem as if > > Thought must be subordinate to what is given, to the > > realities of fact; that this is its basis and guide: > > while Philosophy dwells in the region of > > self-produced ideas, without reference to actuality. > > Approaching history thus prepossessed, speculation > > might be expected to treat it as a mere passive > > material; and so far from > > leaving it in its native truth, to force it into > > conformity with a tyrannous idea, and to construe it, > > as the phrase is, “ a priori.” But as it is the > > business of history simply to adopt into its records > > what is and has been, actual occurrences and > > transactions; and since it remains true to its > > character in proportion as it strictly adheres to its > > data, we seem to have in Philosophy, a process > > diametrically opposed to that of the > > historiographer(Ibid., pp. 8-9).” > > Now, this kind of history—whose > > description we’ve had from the father’s mouth have > > been critiqued from two directions :one, which was a > > 19th and early 20th century critique : that this is a > > speculative, theoretical and idealistic history; > > secondly, the contemporary post colonial critique > > which is here. > > > > II. > > The question can be stated in an other form : what > > happens when Hegel is taken to task for a kind of > > history/historiography he does not stand for? This can > > be had from the postcolonial critiques of Hegel with > > illustrative names running from Ranajit Guha, Dipesh > > Chakraborty to Gayatri Chakravory Spivak. It is only > > Partha Chaterjee who could be spared of this error. > > Because elsewhere I’ve elaborated on this premise, > > today I limit myself to quoting the relevant portion > > only ( excerpted from my ‘Reading Hegel in the > > Colonial Night’). > > > > “…The postcolonial critique of Hegel: The synopsis > > of that critique is – in the language of Spivak, Hegel > > is a strong moment in the “ epistemic graphing of > > imperialism” [2] Apart from Gayatri Spivak, Ranajit > > Guha[3] and Dipesh Chakraborty [4] have approved of > > such a critique in their works. Now, it would not be > > correct to or even it is perhaps not possible to > > engage with Hegel in the colonies without referring to > > the above critique; but as it will be shown, I’ll not > > require this critique at all. Not, because I think > > this critique, by and large, is misplaced. This > > misplacement emerges handy because its authors > > consider Hegel without his system[5]. > > But the point is not whether Hegel belongs to this or > > that kind of historiography. If there is any thing > > that Hegel belongs to, it would be a philosophical > > history which some including Hegel have observed as a > > kind of apriori history i.e., Hegel is said to have > > provided the transcendental conditions by which the > > experience of history or us experiencing history > > becomes possible. Following Gilian Rose, the > > historical apriori is the precondition of the > > possibility of actual histoical facts or values; “it > > is an apriori, that is, not empirical, for it is the > > basis of the possibility of experience” [6]. This > > experience is not dependent on the empirical realities > > of factual history because the latter kind of material > > history itself draws its categories or becomes > > possible by such already present forms. For instance > > we would not be able to make sense of anything called > > social facts if we did not presuppose the concept of > > society; similarly historical facts are nothing > > without the [apriori] concept of history. “It cannot > > be a fact, because it is the precondition of” > > [historical] “facts and hence cannot be one of them: > > it is a ‘transcendent objectivity [7]. ’’ Hegel is, > > infact, categorical on this: “ the philosophy of > > history is nothing more than the application of > > thought to history” [8]. This thought in Hegel is the > > self-activity of the concept which is independent of > > empirical data :“ Philosophy, …is credited with > > independent thoughts produced by pure speculation, > > without reference to actuality…[and]..forces it [ > > i.e., the latter] to conform to its preconceived > > notions and constructs a history a priori” [9]. That > > endorses the perceptive remark made by William Stace > > that civil society is a logical derivation and not a > > historical derivation in Hegel [10]. And the > > justification of such a logical derivation, Hegel is > > very clear on this, cannot “ come from the world of > > experience.” Because- > > > > “what philosophy understands by conceptual thinking is > > something quite different; in this case, comprehension > > is the activity of the concept itself, and not a > > conflict between a material and a form of separate > > origin. An alliance of disparates such as is found > > in pragmatic history is not sufficient for the > > purposes of conceptual thinking as practiced in > > philosophy; for the latter derives its content and > > material essentially from within itself. In this > > respect, therefore, despite the alleged links between > > the two. The original dichotomy remains: the > > historical event stands opposed to the independent > > concept” [11]. > > > > Therefore Hegel—given his project—should be judged for > > the correctness of the philosophical journey that he > > traces for autonomous concepts rather than being > > faulted for various cultural and ideological, > > anthropological reasons; we are perhaps forgetting > > his own objections made against such trials. The > > postcolonials have made Hegel –unlike Marx and for > > all the wrong reasons, stand on his head “requiring > > identity of the non-identical. Historic contingency > > and the concept are the more mercilessly antagonistic > > the more solidly they are entwined [12]. I think this > > last reprimand from Adorno forecloses the postcolonial > > critique[13] which prides itself by placing Hegel on > > the imperial theatre. > > With this I come to the end of this > > sample post where non-archival history no. 1( like > > hero no.1) has been referred to’ next will come sample > > of non-archival history no. 2…and what is that? > > > > > > [To be continued] > > > > with regards > > yours in discourse and debt > > Arnab Chatterjee > > > > ENDNOTES > > [1] Hegel, G.W.F. The Philosophy of History ( transl. > > J. Sibree), New York, 1956. > > > > [2]Spivak, A Critique of Postcolonial Reason, p.65. > > > > [3]Guha, History at the Limit of World-History. > > > > [4]Chakraborty, Habitations of Modernity: Essays in > > the wake of Subaltern Studies, p.81. > > > > [5]A plain historical approach may be corrected in > > the following way: Take for instance `the observation > > that the Hegelian construct of civil society exhibits > > exhortations that express Hegel’s fear of the > > rabble or the large mass of the poor people. Some > > with a historical nose smelled in this Hegel’s fear of > > the future industrial proletariat and the communist > > revolution. It has been recently pointed out by those > > historians with a different positivist nose-- how this > > is mistaken. Hegel’s face is rather turned towards the > > past. It is rather England’s poor law that could be > > said to have had a remote thematic reference. For some > > such corrections see Jones, “Hegel and the Economics > > of Civil Society”. The philosophical historical > > reading is offered by Stace above. > > [6]Rose, Hegel, p.14. > > > > [7]Ibid., p.15 > > > > [8]Hegel, Lectures on the philosophy of World History, > > p. 25. > > > > [9]Ibid., p.25. > > > > [10]Stace, The Philosophy of Hegel, p. 412. > > > > [11]Hegel, Lectures on the philosophy of World History > > , p.26, (italics mine). > > > > [12]Adorno, Negative Dialectics,p.359. > > > > [13]Gayatri Spivak in her more deconstructive moods > > remarks that there is a lack of fit between morphology > > and narrative in Hegel ( Spivak, Outside in the > > Teaching Machine, p.209). But, if that is so, then > > Hegel’s historical narrative should be assumed to have > > been belied by his abstruse and complicated logical > > machinery or morphology; in other words, Hegel could > > be shown to have been opposing his own historical > > conclusions. Among those who are known as > > “postcolonials” and have engaged with Hegel, it is, > > to my mind, only Partha Chatterjee (Chatterjee, > > ‘Communities and the Nation,’ pp.220-239) who has been > > able to avoid this trap by not trying to address Hegel > > historically. > > > > > > REFERENCES > > > > Adorno, Theodor. Negative Dialectics ( trans. E.B. > > Ashton), London, 1973. > > > > Chakraborty, Dipesh. Habitations of Moderntiy: Essays > > in the wake of Subaltern Studies, New Delhi, 2004. > > > > Chatterjee, Partha. ‘Communities and the Nation’, in > > his The Nation and its Fragments. Delhi, 1994, pp. > > 226-239. > > > > > > Guha, Ranajit. History at the Limit of World-History, > > Delhi, 2003. > > > > > > Hegel, G.W.F. > > ---------------- Hegel’s Philosophy of Mind, > > Translated from The Encyclopedia of the Philosophical > > Sciences (transl. William Wallace), Oxford, 1894. > > > > --------------The Philosophy of History ( transl. J. > > Sibree), New York, 1956. > > .. > > ---------------Lectures on the philosophy of World > > History, Introduction : Reason in History (trans. H.B. > > Nisbet), Cambridge, 1987. > > ----------------Phenomenology of Spirit (transl. A.V > > Miller), Delhi, 1998. > > > > > > Jones, Gareth Stedman. ‘Hegel and the Economics of > > Civil Society’, in Sudipta Kaviraj & Sunil Khilnani, > > eds., Civil Society: History and Possibilities, > > Cambridge, 2002, pp. 105-130. > > > > > > Rose, Gilian. Hegel : Contra Sociology, London, 1981. > > > > Spivak, Gayatri Chakravorty. Outside in the Teaching > > Machine, New York, 1993. > > ------------------------------------- A Critique of > > Postcolonial Reason: Towards a History of the > > Vanishing Present, Calcutta, 1999. > > > > Stace, William Terence. The Philosophy of Hegel: A > > Systematic Exposition, N.Y, 1955. > > > > > > ___________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a > > click away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.ne t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.ne > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From vivek at sarai.net Wed Jan 16 20:54:12 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:54:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi/Jan 27/Open Baithak featuring Bob Holman Message-ID: <478E219C.1040506@sarai.net> Open Baithak Presents Bob Holman Outstanding poet and poetry activist, who was recently dubbed a member of the "Poetry Pantheon"* *by the New York Times Magazine. Holman has been a central figure in the US slam, spoken word and performance poetry movements and in the movement to bring poetry back into people's daily lives. He was instrumental in the reopening of the legendary Nuyorican Poets Cafe and was the original slammaster there. He later founded the Bowery Poetry Club in New York, which has set a standard for making poetry accessible, and for bringing together established and emerging artists from various genres together. Holman founded a record label, produced pieces for PBS, and has written several books, most recently "A Couple of Ways of Doing Something", a collaboration with Chuck Close (Aperture). He is visiting Professor of Writing at Columbia University and NYU. Jan 27, 2008, Sunday @ 6 pm The Attic, 36 Regal Buildings, New Delhi ***Besides Holman throwing a few surprises our way, the fourth Baithak will feature its usual Open Reading where poets perform their poetry and really give you something to listen to. Please contact Monica Mody at openbaithak at gmail.com with questions. OPEN BAITHAK is a contemporary gathering of poets who want to perform and entertain. We name as our lineage mushairas, open mics, people's theatre, performance art, technology, storytelling and any other tradition that grabs our fancy. From mail at shivamvij.com Thu Jan 17 15:28:43 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:28:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Return to Kashmir, J&K minister urges migrants Message-ID: <9c06aab30801170158j4b325669ubfc53bc54d53b545@mail.gmail.com> Return to Kashmir, J&K minister urges migrants Express news service Posted online: Thursday , January 17, 2008 at 11:44:34 Updated: Thursday , January 17, 2008 at 12:00:04 http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Return-to-Kashmir-JK-minister-urges-migrants/262268/ Pune, January 16 With around 500 Kashmiri migrants making Pune their home during the winter months every year, their presence has become a source of concern not only for some groups in Pune, but for the Kashmiri Government. Speaking at a press conference on Wednesday, Jammu and Kashmir Minister Mohammad Dilawar Mir said that the government was now urging these migrants to return to Kashmir and work there instead of "spoiling the atmosphere of Pune." Drawn by the safe and congenial atmosphere in the city, they come to Pune and settled down mainly at Kalewadi. "These migrants receive a lot of support from NGOs and other groups here. But since they come here every year, we had complained to both the Maharashtra and J&K governments some two years ago requesting a permanent solution," said Sanjay Nahar, founder of Sarhad, an NGO working for welfare of abandoned Kashmiri children. Explaining the reasons behind their complaint, Nahar said that since the migrants were financially needy, they could easily be lured by money and exploited for aiding terrorist activity. "This poses a threat to them, since they will automatically be blamed for any violence or terrorism in the city, and will create problems for their security. The safe image of Pune will also be ruined," he said. Nahar said the Kashmiri government was keen to investigate the reasons for this vast influx of migrants into the city, and how a solution can be found. "Recently Inspector General of Police from J&K Javid Mukhdoomi also visited Kalewadi and wrote a report on this seasonal migration of Kashmiri Muslims," said Nahar. Mir, who is the minister for Public Health Engineering, Irrigation, Flood Control, and Horticulture is also in the city to meet the migrants and study their situation. Mir said that complaints had been received that the migrants were begging for money, food, and so on. "We spoke to them and asked them their reasons for coming here and whether they felt threatened in Kashmir. They said that they are not forced by anyone to come here. So we have told them that they should return to their state and take up employment there instead of spoiling the atmosphere in Pune, which has always been good to Kashmiri migrants and students," said Mir. Mir said that the J&K government was also trying to encourage Kashmiri Hindus to return to their home state. "Many Kashmiri Pandits were forced to leave their birthplace because of militancy. But now the situation has become normal, and they should return to where they belong with full honour and dignity," said Mir, adding that thousands of Pandits had visited their home towns during the Kheer Bhawani Tulbula festival, and had received a warm welcome. Referring to military intelligence reports that infiltration in Kashmir was on the rise, Mir said, "We do not want to question the reports, but we are government officials working at the ground level in Kashmir, and I can see that the situation is improving," he said, adding that the government was also encouraging film shootings and tourist visits to the state. From atreyee.m at gmail.com Thu Jan 17 16:15:06 2008 From: atreyee.m at gmail.com (atreyee majumder) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:15:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Off the Mantle#3 In-Reply-To: <478f2fec.1ba67e0a.21ea.ffffc423SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <478f2fec.1ba67e0a.21ea.ffffc423SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1944bc230801170245y372038d9v4634aeb2dab65576@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: First City Theatre Foundation Date: Jan 17, 2008 4:05 PM Subject: Off the Mantle#3 To: natararangpratishthan at yahoo.co.in, abhikabhik at gmail.com, alokrai1 at gmail.com, amiteshgroveris at gmail.com, anannya.mehtta at gmail.com, anjanasharma99 at hotmail.com, anoothi at hotmail.com, anumalhotra at aimtelevision.com, apd at ststephens.edu, arjun.mahey at gmail.com, arshadsaidkhan at gmail.com, aruna.vasudev at gmail.com, Arunabha Deb < shubhodeb at hotmail.com>, arunikashyap at gmail.com, ashish.r at bol.net.in, ashish.yechury at gmail.com, ashwin.ahmad at gmail.com, atreyee.m at gmail.com, Barkha Tanvir , Bhaskar Ghose < bhaskarghose at gmail.com>, bphookun at ststephens.edu, cchari at subcontinent.com, charis1984 at gmail.com, Chitra Srinivas , cicilia85 at hotmail.com, cinefan at osians.com, dak at sarai.net, diya4711 at yahoo.co.in, dore_me at hotmail.com, dyuti.ailawadi at gmail.com, englishliterarysociety.ssc at gmail.com, gchakravarty at rediffmail.com, gjvprasad at mail.jnu.ac.in, himani.dalmia at gmail.com, indrani at osians.com, ipsita.chakravarty at gmail.com, ira.bhaskar at gmail.com, jain_physics at yahoo.co.in, jairajsinghht at gmail.com, kapur.anuradha at gmail.com, kartiknair at gmail.com, kessing at delhi.goethe.org, kevalarora at yahoo.com, kirtinsd at gmail.com, kishore.singh at bsmail.in, Latika Padgaokar < cinemaya at osians.com>, lauren.klein at gmail.com, malashri at hotmail.com, mallikataneja at yahoo.co.in, manju.j at vsnl.com, Maya Rao , Meenakshi Bharat , Moloyshree Hashmi < leftword at vsnl.com>, Moloyshree Hashmi , Nanni Singh < nanni209 at yahoo.com>, Neeraj Malik , neeraj at osians.com, nehabhatt70 at gmail.com, nishthagautama at gmail.com, nupur_amarnath at yahoo.co.in, pandealka at gmail.com, pankaj_bharti31 at rediffmail.com, payal.wadhwa at gmail.com, piyali.bhattacharya at gmail.com, pkvijayan at wowmail.com, Priya Prakash < prakashpriya at gmail.com>, raman at osians.com, Ranjani Mazumdar < ranjani.mazumdar at gmail.com>, rau.gautam at gmail.com, rithuthomas at gmail.com, roopa59 at gmail.com, salmassdq at yahoo.co.in, samyak.chakrabarty at gmail.com, saniahashmi at gmail.com, santanu at osians.com, savimunjal at gmail.com, sharan06 at gmail.com, shilpigulati211 at yahoo.co.in, shirshenduc at hotmail.com, sneha831987 at yahoo.co.in, soity at rediffmail.com, susan.2020 at gmail.com, susanvisvanathan at hotmail.com, Sushma Bahl , sushmitsarkar at gmail.com, talentcampus at osians.com, tarini.barat at gmail.com, thomas.pooja at gmail.com, tnmukul03 at yahoo.com, trisharajshekhar at gmail.com, trivedih at vsnl.com, urmila.dasgupta at pearsoned.co.in, Urvashi Butalia < zubaanbooks at vsnl.com> ** * * *OFF THE MANTLE #3* * * *The First City Theatre Readings* * * *invites you to* * * * * *David Hare's **THE BLUE ROOM*** * * *&* * * *Joe Penhall's **BLUE/ORANGE* * * * * *Date: 23 January 2008* *Time: 7 PM* *Venue: The Attic, 36 Regal Building (near The Shop) Connaught Place* * * *Contact* * Neel Chaudhuri* *Kuhu Tanvir* *011-46070317* *theatre at firstcitydelhi.com* * * *OFF THE MANTLE #3* *The First City Theatre Readings* * * *Extracts from* *David Hare's THE BLUE ROOM* *& Joe Penhall's BLUE/ORANGE* * * The First City Theatre Foundation presents the third in its now regular series of dramatic readings at The Attic. After Shakespeare and Mark Twain, we turn to two contemporary writers – David Hare and Joe Penhall – with extracts from two engaging, bold and coincidentally coloured plays. *"give me a kiss"* *The Blue Room* is based on *Reigen*, a series of vignettes written by Dr. Arthur Schnitzler in 1896. *Reigen*, German for ''round dance,'' was set in Schnitzler's own *fin de siecle*, Vienna and depicted a number of characters in a continuous chain of sexual liaisons. When the work was actually performed in Vienna in 1921, it was closed by police for its scandalous content. Actors in a Berlin production the same year were taken to court on obscenity charges. In Hare's retelling (written for the stage and film director Sam Mendes), the story remains the same – ten characters fall in and out of bed with each other, never quite finding fulfillment but the setting has changed. No longer Vienna, the backdrop for *The Blue Room* is described ambiguously as ''one of the great cities of the world, in the present day.'' And Hare's version has only two actors performing all the parts. However, the play retains Schnitzler's essential subject, which is the gulf between what we imagine, what we remember, and what we actually experience. *The Blue Room *premiered in London in September 1998. *"give me a cigarette, doc"* *Blue/Orange*, Joe Penhall's first play for the Royal National Theatre is an incendiary tale about race, madness and a Darwinian power struggle at the heart of a dying National Health Service (NHS) in England. In a London psychiatric hospital, an enigmatic patient claims to be the son of an exiled African dictator. As the drama unfolds, his story becomes unnervingly possible … Charles Spencer of the *Daily Telegraph* writes, "Penhall belongs to the new wave of dramatists that has flooded British theatre with exciting work in recent years … He tackles tricky, interesting themes with a spare, laconic style that puts you in mind of a young Pinter … an impression of depth, undercurrents of unease beneath the surface of the dialogue." * Blue/Orange* premiered in London in April 2000. In the intermission between the two readings, the Foundation presents a short preview of its play *Mouse*, one half of a double-bill production that will go up at the Alliance Française on 5,6 and 7 February 2008. * * From oishiksircar at gmail.com Thu Jan 17 21:39:40 2008 From: oishiksircar at gmail.com (OISHIK SIRCAR) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 10:09:40 -0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62cba67a0801170809r5c0fc147m2ededfbb5cc8c1c2@mail.gmail.com> ** *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and Armed Forces Special Powers Act * *On the Eve of Republic Day * *25th January 2008 * * * On July 15 2004, for the first time in its history, the Indian "democracy" witnessed an unusual mode of protest against its government. About a dozen women came out on the street and disrobed themselves, protesting against the AFSPA and rape/murder of Thangjam Manorama, in front of an occupied historic place, the Kangla Fort in Manipur, (where the 17 th Assam Rifles Battalion is stationed). The message of the protest was "INDIAN ARMY RAPE US". This novel agitation sparked the awakening of many citizens inside the country as well as people in other parts of world, on the plight, sufferings and atrocities on Manipur people under the military boots. *These brave and noble women from Manipur are coming to Delhi to stir up the claustrophobic Government of India, on the eve of Republic Day and going to continue for a month time. The protest is being organized against the Central Government's arrogant behavior, blatant propaganda and insensitivity towards the plight of people of Manipur * * * The Indian Government has actively encouraged violence committed by the security forces under the draconian law -- Armed Forces Special Powers Act, 1958 (AFSPA, 1958), which legitimizes any army personnel to shoot, kill and destroy a person or a property on mere "suspicion". This Act has also promoted militarization in the entire North East, where possibility for any genuine legal proceedings to take place for justice or accountability has become an impossibility and use of extra-judicial killings by state-promoted renegade groups like the SULFA in Assam and Ikhwaanis in Kashmir with complete impunity has become endemic. The country is proud to claim itself as the world's largest democracy, but how it is defining it, is a real question and a mockery, when there is martial law functioning (AFSPA 1958) in North East and J&K regions for nearly last fifty years. Friends, this kleptocratic government is a clear and present danger to every citizen of this country. We need to protest fiercely until the system is put in place, in order to ensure the security of common citizens. *We are inviting every citizens of this nation to participate in the campaign to strengthen our long overdue peaceful struggle as many days as you would be able to. This is the least we can do to protest against this injustice system which saddens our hearts yet the government ignores to listen our plight. We are confident that truth will emerge victorious one day through your esteem support. * * Looking forward for your kind presence. * *Please come and join on the* *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity, and the Armed Forces Special Powers Act. * * * *Date: 25th January 2008* *Place: Jantar Mantar * *Time: 1:00 pm* Recommendation for the repeal of AFSPA 1958 from government committees and international organizations: · 1991, UN Human Rights Committee · 2005, Justice Jeevan Reddy Committee · 2006, India UN CEDAW Report · 2007, UN CERD · 2007, Administrative Reform Committee Campaign Coordinator Onil Reachout +91-9818781767 Email: onilrights at gmail.com , reachout2006 at gmail.com Sundara Babu Nagappan Independent Researcher +91-9311744919 Email: babuubab at gmail.com Sapamcha Kangleipal NE Youth Coordinator +91-9862096539 Email: kangleipal at yahoo.com Vani Subramanian Saheli +91-9891128911 Email: saheliwomen at hotmail.com Kavita Joshi Impulse +91-9868888642 Email: kj.impulse at gmail.com Tanya Mathan Coordinator, Voluntary Agency Placement Programme (VAPP), Lady Shri Ram College +91-9891703465 Email: vapp.lsr at gmail.com *(Esteemed supporters please endorsed your organization name and bring your organization's name banner on the day of protest) * ** ** -- OISHIK SIRCAR Scholar in Women's Rights Faculty of Law, University of Toronto 60 Harbord Street Room 016 B Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca 416.876.7926 From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Thu Jan 17 21:51:29 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 08:21:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 Message-ID: <506308.11600.qm@web90411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The news is correct.. But there is more depth to such news.. Like the one I am quoting here.. In Kashmir some Army officials have been court martialed.. you all know this.. But the real stories has many faces.. one of them is: Muslim senior officers had forced junior Hindu officers to bring Hindu girls for enjoyment... And somehow these juniors ran away and didn't do it.. and they were court martialed.. So those who defame Indian Army in Kashmir and other places, must also try to know the name of officers who had done the crime and just not defame the whole Army.. For example, we can take the case of who posted this mail... ----- Original Message ---- From: OISHIK SIRCAR To: peaceworksdefenders at googlegroups.com; sexualityinstitute2002 at yahoogroups.co.in; sarai list ; ILS Across Borders Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 9:39:40 PM Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 ** *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and Armed Forces Special Powers Act * *On the Eve of Republic Day * *25th January 2008 * * * On July 15 2004, for the first time in its history, the Indian "democracy" witnessed an unusual mode of protest against its government. About a dozen women came out on the street and disrobed themselves, protesting against the AFSPA and rape/murder of Thangjam Manorama, in front of an occupied historic place, the Kangla Fort in Manipur, (where the 17 th Assam Rifles Battalion is stationed). The message of the protest was "INDIAN ARMY RAPE US". This novel agitation sparked the awakening of many citizens inside the country as well as people in other parts of world, on the plight, sufferings and atrocities on Manipur people under the military boots. *These brave and noble women from Manipur are coming to Delhi to stir up the claustrophobic Government of India, on the eve of Republic Day and going to continue for a month time. The protest is being organized against the Central Government's arrogant behavior, blatant propaganda and insensitivity towards the plight of people of Manipur * * * The Indian Government has actively encouraged violence committed by the security forces under the draconian law -- Armed Forces Special Powers Act, 1958 (AFSPA, 1958), which legitimizes any army personnel to shoot, kill and destroy a person or a property on mere "suspicion". This Act has also promoted militarization in the entire North East, where possibility for any genuine legal proceedings to take place for justice or accountability has become an impossibility and use of extra-judicial killings by state-promoted renegade groups like the SULFA in Assam and Ikhwaanis in Kashmir with complete impunity has become endemic. The country is proud to claim itself as the world's largest democracy, but how it is defining it, is a real question and a mockery, when there is martial law functioning (AFSPA 1958) in North East and J&K regions for nearly last fifty years. Friends, this kleptocratic government is a clear and present danger to every citizen of this country. We need to protest fiercely until the system is put in place, in order to ensure the security of common citizens. *We are inviting every citizens of this nation to participate in the campaign to strengthen our long overdue peaceful struggle as many days as you would be able to. This is the least we can do to protest against this injustice system which saddens our hearts yet the government ignores to listen our plight. We are confident that truth will emerge victorious one day through your esteem support. * * Looking forward for your kind presence. * *Please come and join on the* *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity, and the Armed Forces Special Powers Act. * * * *Date: 25th January 2008* *Place: Jantar Mantar * *Time: 1:00 pm* Recommendation for the repeal of AFSPA 1958 from government committees and international organizations: · 1991, UN Human Rights Committee · 2005, Justice Jeevan Reddy Committee · 2006, India UN CEDAW Report · 2007, UN CERD · 2007, Administrative Reform Committee Campaign Coordinator Onil Reachout +91-9818781767 Email: onilrights at gmail.com , reachout2006 at gmail.com Sundara Babu Nagappan Independent Researcher +91-9311744919 Email: babuubab at gmail.com Sapamcha Kangleipal NE Youth Coordinator +91-9862096539 Email: kangleipal at yahoo.com Vani Subramanian Saheli +91-9891128911 Email: saheliwomen at hotmail.com Kavita Joshi Impulse +91-9868888642 Email: kj.impulse at gmail.com Tanya Mathan Coordinator, Voluntary Agency Placement Programme (VAPP), Lady Shri Ram College +91-9891703465 Email: vapp.lsr at gmail.com *(Esteemed supporters please endorsed your organization name and bring your organization's name banner on the day of protest) * ** ** -- OISHIK SIRCAR Scholar in Women's Rights Faculty of Law, University of Toronto 60 Harbord Street Room 016 B Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca 416.876.7926 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Thu Jan 17 22:27:53 2008 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:27:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 In-Reply-To: <506308.11600.qm@web90411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <506308.11600.qm@web90411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Chanchal, Can you please quote the sources of your information? Otherwise we can all cook up facts ad nauseum, to suit our points of view. Thanking you in advance, Yours truly, Zainab On Jan 17, 2008 9:51 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: > The news is correct.. But there is more depth to such news.. > Like the one I am quoting here.. > > In Kashmir some Army officials have been court martialed.. you all know > this.. > But the real stories has many faces.. > one of them is: > > Muslim senior officers had forced junior Hindu officers to bring Hindu > girls for enjoyment... > And somehow these juniors ran away and didn't do it.. and they were court > martialed.. > > So those who defame Indian Army in Kashmir and other places, must also try > to know the name of officers who had done the crime and just not defame the > whole Army.. > For example, we can take the case of who posted this mail... > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: OISHIK SIRCAR > To: peaceworksdefenders at googlegroups.com; > sexualityinstitute2002 at yahoogroups.co.in; sarai list < > reader-list at sarai.net>; ILS Across Borders < > ILS-Across-Borders at googlegroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 9:39:40 PM > Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - > Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > ** > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and Armed Forces Special Powers > Act * > > *On the Eve of Republic Day * > > *25th January 2008 * > > * * > > > > On July 15 2004, for the first time in its history, the Indian "democracy" > witnessed an unusual mode of protest against its government. About a dozen > women came out on the street and disrobed themselves, protesting against > the > AFSPA and rape/murder of Thangjam Manorama, in front of an occupied > historic > place, the Kangla Fort in Manipur, (where the 17 th Assam Rifles Battalion > is stationed). > > > > The message of the protest was "INDIAN ARMY RAPE US". This novel agitation > sparked the awakening of many citizens inside the country as well as > people > in other parts of world, on the plight, sufferings and atrocities on > Manipur > people under the military boots. > > > > *These brave and noble women from Manipur are coming to Delhi to stir up > the > claustrophobic Government of India, on the eve of Republic Day and going > to > continue for a month time. The protest is being organized against the > Central Government's arrogant behavior, blatant propaganda and > insensitivity > towards the plight of people of Manipur * > > * * > > The Indian Government has actively encouraged violence committed by the > security forces under the draconian law -- Armed Forces Special Powers > Act, > 1958 (AFSPA, 1958), which legitimizes any army personnel to shoot, kill > and > destroy a person or a property on mere "suspicion". This Act has also > promoted militarization in the entire North East, where possibility for > any > genuine legal proceedings to take place for justice or accountability has > become an impossibility and use of extra-judicial killings by > state-promoted > renegade groups like the SULFA in Assam and Ikhwaanis in Kashmir with > complete impunity has become endemic. > > > > The country is proud to claim itself as the world's largest democracy, but > how it is defining it, is a real question and a mockery, when there is > martial law functioning (AFSPA 1958) in North East and J&K regions for > nearly last fifty years. > > > > Friends, this kleptocratic government is a clear and present danger to > every > citizen of this country. We need to protest fiercely until the system is > put > in place, in order to ensure the security of common citizens. > > > > *We are inviting every citizens of this nation to participate in the > campaign to strengthen our long overdue peaceful struggle as many days as > you would be able to. This is the least we can do to protest against this > injustice system which saddens our hearts yet the government ignores to > listen our plight. We are confident that truth will emerge victorious one > day through your esteem support. * > > * Looking forward for your kind presence. * > > *Please come and join on the* > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity, and the Armed Forces Special > Powers Act. * > > * * > > *Date: 25th January 2008* > > *Place: Jantar Mantar * > > *Time: 1:00 pm* > > > > Recommendation for the repeal of AFSPA 1958 from government committees and > international organizations: > > · 1991, UN Human Rights Committee > > · 2005, Justice Jeevan Reddy Committee > > · 2006, India UN CEDAW Report > > · 2007, UN CERD > > · 2007, Administrative Reform Committee > > > > Campaign Coordinator > > Onil > > Reachout > > +91-9818781767 > > Email: onilrights at gmail.com , reachout2006 at gmail.com > > > > Sundara Babu Nagappan > > Independent Researcher > > +91-9311744919 > > Email: babuubab at gmail.com > > > > > > Sapamcha Kangleipal > > NE Youth Coordinator > > +91-9862096539 > > Email: kangleipal at yahoo.com > > > > Vani Subramanian > > Saheli > > +91-9891128911 > > Email: saheliwomen at hotmail.com > > > > Kavita Joshi > > Impulse > > +91-9868888642 > > Email: kj.impulse at gmail.com > > > > Tanya Mathan > > Coordinator, Voluntary Agency Placement Programme (VAPP), > > Lady Shri Ram College > > +91-9891703465 > > Email: vapp.lsr at gmail.com > > > > > > *(Esteemed supporters please endorsed your organization name and bring > your > organization's name banner on the day of protest) * > > ** > > ** > > > > > > -- > OISHIK SIRCAR > > Scholar in Women's Rights > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > 60 Harbord Street > Room 016 B > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > 416.876.7926 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From zapfmann at gmail.com Thu Jan 17 22:32:42 2008 From: zapfmann at gmail.com (Kulpreet Singh) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:32:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 In-Reply-To: References: <506308.11600.qm@web90411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200801172232.42138.zapfmann@gmail.com> On Thursday 17 January 2008 22:27:53 Zainab Bawa wrote: Way to go Zainab! -kp > Dear Chanchal, > > Can you please quote the sources of your information? Otherwise we can all > cook up facts ad nauseum, to suit our points of view. > > Thanking you in advance, > > Yours truly, > > Zainab > > > On Jan 17, 2008 9:51 PM, chanchal malviya > > wrote: > > The news is correct.. But there is more depth to such news.. > > Like the one I am quoting here.. > > > > In Kashmir some Army officials have been court martialed.. you all know > > this.. > > But the real stories has many faces.. > > one of them is: > > > > Muslim senior officers had forced junior Hindu officers to bring Hindu > > girls for enjoyment... > > And somehow these juniors ran away and didn't do it.. and they were court > > martialed.. > > > > So those who defame Indian Army in Kashmir and other places, must also > > try to know the name of officers who had done the crime and just not > > defame the whole Army.. > > For example, we can take the case of who posted this mail... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: OISHIK SIRCAR > > To: peaceworksdefenders at googlegroups.com; > > sexualityinstitute2002 at yahoogroups.co.in; sarai list < > > reader-list at sarai.net>; ILS Across Borders < > > ILS-Across-Borders at googlegroups.com> > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 9:39:40 PM > > Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - > > Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > ** > > > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and Armed Forces Special > > Powers Act * > > > > *On the Eve of Republic Day * > > > > *25th January 2008 * > > > > * * > > > > > > > > On July 15 2004, for the first time in its history, the Indian > > "democracy" witnessed an unusual mode of protest against its government. > > About a dozen women came out on the street and disrobed themselves, > > protesting against the > > AFSPA and rape/murder of Thangjam Manorama, in front of an occupied > > historic > > place, the Kangla Fort in Manipur, (where the 17 th Assam Rifles > > Battalion is stationed). > > > > > > > > The message of the protest was "INDIAN ARMY RAPE US". This novel > > agitation sparked the awakening of many citizens inside the country as > > well as people > > in other parts of world, on the plight, sufferings and atrocities on > > Manipur > > people under the military boots. > > > > > > > > *These brave and noble women from Manipur are coming to Delhi to stir up > > the > > claustrophobic Government of India, on the eve of Republic Day and going > > to > > continue for a month time. The protest is being organized against the > > Central Government's arrogant behavior, blatant propaganda and > > insensitivity > > towards the plight of people of Manipur * > > > > * * > > > > The Indian Government has actively encouraged violence committed by the > > security forces under the draconian law -- Armed Forces Special Powers > > Act, > > 1958 (AFSPA, 1958), which legitimizes any army personnel to shoot, kill > > and > > destroy a person or a property on mere "suspicion". This Act has also > > promoted militarization in the entire North East, where possibility for > > any > > genuine legal proceedings to take place for justice or accountability has > > become an impossibility and use of extra-judicial killings by > > state-promoted > > renegade groups like the SULFA in Assam and Ikhwaanis in Kashmir with > > complete impunity has become endemic. > > > > > > > > The country is proud to claim itself as the world's largest democracy, > > but how it is defining it, is a real question and a mockery, when there > > is martial law functioning (AFSPA 1958) in North East and J&K regions for > > nearly last fifty years. > > > > > > > > Friends, this kleptocratic government is a clear and present danger to > > every > > citizen of this country. We need to protest fiercely until the system is > > put > > in place, in order to ensure the security of common citizens. > > > > > > > > *We are inviting every citizens of this nation to participate in the > > campaign to strengthen our long overdue peaceful struggle as many days as > > you would be able to. This is the least we can do to protest against this > > injustice system which saddens our hearts yet the government ignores to > > listen our plight. We are confident that truth will emerge victorious > > one day through your esteem support. * > > > > * Looking forward for your kind presence. * > > > > *Please come and join on the* > > > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity, and the Armed Forces Special > > Powers Act. * > > > > * * > > > > *Date: 25th January 2008* > > > > *Place: Jantar Mantar * > > > > *Time: 1:00 pm* > > > > > > > > Recommendation for the repeal of AFSPA 1958 from government committees > > and international organizations: > > > > · 1991, UN Human Rights Committee > > > > · 2005, Justice Jeevan Reddy Committee > > > > · 2006, India UN CEDAW Report > > > > · 2007, UN CERD > > > > · 2007, Administrative Reform Committee > > > > > > > > Campaign Coordinator > > > > Onil > > > > Reachout > > > > +91-9818781767 > > > > Email: onilrights at gmail.com , reachout2006 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > Sundara Babu Nagappan > > > > Independent Researcher > > > > +91-9311744919 > > > > Email: babuubab at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Sapamcha Kangleipal > > > > NE Youth Coordinator > > > > +91-9862096539 > > > > Email: kangleipal at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > Vani Subramanian > > > > Saheli > > > > +91-9891128911 > > > > Email: saheliwomen at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > Kavita Joshi > > > > Impulse > > > > +91-9868888642 > > > > Email: kj.impulse at gmail.com > > > > > > > > Tanya Mathan > > > > Coordinator, Voluntary Agency Placement Programme (VAPP), > > > > Lady Shri Ram College > > > > +91-9891703465 > > > > Email: vapp.lsr at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > *(Esteemed supporters please endorsed your organization name and bring > > your > > organization's name banner on the day of protest) * > > > > ** > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > Room 016 B > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > 416.876.7926 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > >___________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Thu Jan 17 22:34:15 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:04:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 Message-ID: <398762.31586.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I don't want to quote sources... Will you recognize the names of person who dwell there and have faced these things... Now, my query.... Can you quote evidence that what I have said is not correct... Mark it, what the news is, is correct... but it is partial.. If you happen to read news paper, there had been many news about Sex rackets operating in Kashmir... Simple question, how many HIndus are now in Kashmir... Hardly 3 to 4 percent... Then, who is operating these sex rackets... And why will Rape require to exist if such rackets are operating... It is clear from these evidences that it is Hindu women who are dragged into rapes... And for your information... I have been to Kashmir... I have talked to Pandits who were massacred and thrown out of Kashmir... And they say 'their women were dragged out of Trucks when they were leaving the region by common Muslims there on the ground of Swords and Arms.... Have the gut to accept what has happened there... and what is happening around.. I don't hate anyone.. but I want Muslims to raise voice against such things done by their community, so that their image can improve in international arena... ----- Original Message ---- From: Zainab Bawa To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:27:53 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 Dear Chanchal, Can you please quote the sources of your information? Otherwise we can all cook up facts ad nauseum, to suit our points of view. Thanking you in advance, Yours truly, Zainab On Jan 17, 2008 9:51 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: The news is correct.. But there is more depth to such news.. Like the one I am quoting here.. In Kashmir some Army officials have been court martialed.. you all know this.. But the real stories has many faces.. one of them is: Muslim senior officers had forced junior Hindu officers to bring Hindu girls for enjoyment... And somehow these juniors ran away and didn't do it.. and they were court martialed.. So those who defame Indian Army in Kashmir and other places, must also try to know the name of officers who had done the crime and just not defame the whole Army.. For example, we can take the case of who posted this mail... ----- Original Message ---- From: OISHIK SIRCAR To: peaceworksdefenders at googlegroups.com; sexualityinstitute2002 at yahoogroups.co.in; sarai list ; ILS Across Borders Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 9:39:40 PM Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 ** *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and Armed Forces Special Powers Act * *On the Eve of Republic Day * *25th January 2008 * * * On July 15 2004, for the first time in its history, the Indian "democracy" witnessed an unusual mode of protest against its government. About a dozen women came out on the street and disrobed themselves, protesting against the AFSPA and rape/murder of Thangjam Manorama, in front of an occupied historic place, the Kangla Fort in Manipur, (where the 17 th Assam Rifles Battalion is stationed). The message of the protest was "INDIAN ARMY RAPE US". This novel agitation sparked the awakening of many citizens inside the country as well as people in other parts of world, on the plight, sufferings and atrocities on Manipur people under the military boots. *These brave and noble women from Manipur are coming to Delhi to stir up the claustrophobic Government of India, on the eve of Republic Day and going to continue for a month time. The protest is being organized against the Central Government's arrogant behavior, blatant propaganda and insensitivity towards the plight of people of Manipur * * * The Indian Government has actively encouraged violence committed by the security forces under the draconian law -- Armed Forces Special Powers Act, 1958 (AFSPA, 1958), which legitimizes any army personnel to shoot, kill and destroy a person or a property on mere "suspicion". This Act has also promoted militarization in the entire North East, where possibility for any genuine legal proceedings to take place for justice or accountability has become an impossibility and use of extra-judicial killings by state-promoted renegade groups like the SULFA in Assam and Ikhwaanis in Kashmir with complete impunity has become endemic. The country is proud to claim itself as the world's largest democracy, but how it is defining it, is a real question and a mockery, when there is martial law functioning (AFSPA 1958) in North East and J&K regions for nearly last fifty years. Friends, this kleptocratic government is a clear and present danger to every citizen of this country. We need to protest fiercely until the system is put in place, in order to ensure the security of common citizens. *We are inviting every citizens of this nation to participate in the campaign to strengthen our long overdue peaceful struggle as many days as you would be able to. This is the least we can do to protest against this injustice system which saddens our hearts yet the government ignores to listen our plight. We are confident that truth will emerge victorious one day through your esteem support. * * Looking forward for your kind presence. * *Please come and join on the* *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity, and the Armed Forces Special Powers Act. * * * *Date: 25th January 2008* *Place: Jantar Mantar * *Time: 1:00 pm* Recommendation for the repeal of AFSPA 1958 from government committees and international organizations: · 1991, UN Human Rights Committee · 2005, Justice Jeevan Reddy Committee · 2006, India UN CEDAW Report · 2007, UN CERD · 2007, Administrative Reform Committee Campaign Coordinator Onil Reachout +91-9818781767 Email: onilrights at gmail.com , reachout2006 at gmail.com Sundara Babu Nagappan Independent Researcher +91-9311744919 Email: babuubab at gmail.com Sapamcha Kangleipal NE Youth Coordinator +91-9862096539 Email: kangleipal at yahoo.com Vani Subramanian Saheli +91-9891128911 Email: saheliwomen at hotmail.com Kavita Joshi Impulse +91-9868888642 Email: kj.impulse at gmail.com Tanya Mathan Coordinator, Voluntary Agency Placement Programme (VAPP), Lady Shri Ram College +91-9891703465 Email: vapp.lsr at gmail.com *(Esteemed supporters please endorsed your organization name and bring your organization's name banner on the day of protest) * ** ** -- OISHIK SIRCAR Scholar in Women's Rights Faculty of Law, University of Toronto 60 Harbord Street Room 016 B Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca 416.876.7926 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Thu Jan 17 22:37:16 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:07:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 Message-ID: <908694.82450.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It would be great, if I am unsubscribed from this list.. I do not want to waste my time with people who cannot see beyond the screen... Thank you all... ----- Original Message ---- From: Kulpreet Singh To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:32:42 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 On Thursday 17 January 2008 22:27:53 Zainab Bawa wrote: Way to go Zainab! -kp > Dear Chanchal, > > Can you please quote the sources of your information? Otherwise we can all > cook up facts ad nauseum, to suit our points of view. > > Thanking you in advance, > > Yours truly, > > Zainab > > > On Jan 17, 2008 9:51 PM, chanchal malviya > > wrote: > > The news is correct.. But there is more depth to such news.. > > Like the one I am quoting here.. > > > > In Kashmir some Army officials have been court martialed.. you all know > > this.. > > But the real stories has many faces.. > > one of them is: > > > > Muslim senior officers had forced junior Hindu officers to bring Hindu > > girls for enjoyment... > > And somehow these juniors ran away and didn't do it.. and they were court > > martialed.. > > > > So those who defame Indian Army in Kashmir and other places, must also > > try to know the name of officers who had done the crime and just not > > defame the whole Army.. > > For example, we can take the case of who posted this mail... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: OISHIK SIRCAR > > To: peaceworksdefenders at googlegroups.com; > > sexualityinstitute2002 at yahoogroups.co.in; sarai list < > > reader-list at sarai.net>; ILS Across Borders < > > ILS-Across-Borders at googlegroups.com> > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 9:39:40 PM > > Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - > > Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > ** > > > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and Armed Forces Special > > Powers Act * > > > > *On the Eve of Republic Day * > > > > *25th January 2008 * > > > > * * > > > > > > > > On July 15 2004, for the first time in its history, the Indian > > "democracy" witnessed an unusual mode of protest against its government. > > About a dozen women came out on the street and disrobed themselves, > > protesting against the > > AFSPA and rape/murder of Thangjam Manorama, in front of an occupied > > historic > > place, the Kangla Fort in Manipur, (where the 17 th Assam Rifles > > Battalion is stationed). > > > > > > > > The message of the protest was "INDIAN ARMY RAPE US". This novel > > agitation sparked the awakening of many citizens inside the country as > > well as people > > in other parts of world, on the plight, sufferings and atrocities on > > Manipur > > people under the military boots. > > > > > > > > *These brave and noble women from Manipur are coming to Delhi to stir up > > the > > claustrophobic Government of India, on the eve of Republic Day and going > > to > > continue for a month time. The protest is being organized against the > > Central Government's arrogant behavior, blatant propaganda and > > insensitivity > > towards the plight of people of Manipur * > > > > * * > > > > The Indian Government has actively encouraged violence committed by the > > security forces under the draconian law -- Armed Forces Special Powers > > Act, > > 1958 (AFSPA, 1958), which legitimizes any army personnel to shoot, kill > > and > > destroy a person or a property on mere "suspicion". This Act has also > > promoted militarization in the entire North East, where possibility for > > any > > genuine legal proceedings to take place for justice or accountability has > > become an impossibility and use of extra-judicial killings by > > state-promoted > > renegade groups like the SULFA in Assam and Ikhwaanis in Kashmir with > > complete impunity has become endemic. > > > > > > > > The country is proud to claim itself as the world's largest democracy, > > but how it is defining it, is a real question and a mockery, when there > > is martial law functioning (AFSPA 1958) in North East and J&K regions for > > nearly last fifty years. > > > > > > > > Friends, this kleptocratic government is a clear and present danger to > > every > > citizen of this country. We need to protest fiercely until the system is > > put > > in place, in order to ensure the security of common citizens. > > > > > > > > *We are inviting every citizens of this nation to participate in the > > campaign to strengthen our long overdue peaceful struggle as many days as > > you would be able to. This is the least we can do to protest against this > > injustice system which saddens our hearts yet the government ignores to > > listen our plight. We are confident that truth will emerge victorious > > one day through your esteem support. * > > > > * Looking forward for your kind presence. * > > > > *Please come and join on the* > > > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity, and the Armed Forces Special > > Powers Act. * > > > > * * > > > > *Date: 25th January 2008* > > > > *Place: Jantar Mantar * > > > > *Time: 1:00 pm* > > > > > > > > Recommendation for the repeal of AFSPA 1958 from government committees > > and international organizations: > > > > · 1991, UN Human Rights Committee > > > > · 2005, Justice Jeevan Reddy Committee > > > > · 2006, India UN CEDAW Report > > > > · 2007, UN CERD > > > > · 2007, Administrative Reform Committee > > > > > > > > Campaign Coordinator > > > > Onil > > > > Reachout > > > > +91-9818781767 > > > > Email: onilrights at gmail.com , reachout2006 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > Sundara Babu Nagappan > > > > Independent Researcher > > > > +91-9311744919 > > > > Email: babuubab at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Sapamcha Kangleipal > > > > NE Youth Coordinator > > > > +91-9862096539 > > > > Email: kangleipal at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > Vani Subramanian > > > > Saheli > > > > +91-9891128911 > > > > Email: saheliwomen at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > Kavita Joshi > > > > Impulse > > > > +91-9868888642 > > > > Email: kj.impulse at gmail.com > > > > > > > > Tanya Mathan > > > > Coordinator, Voluntary Agency Placement Programme (VAPP), > > > > Lady Shri Ram College > > > > +91-9891703465 > > > > Email: vapp.lsr at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > *(Esteemed supporters please endorsed your organization name and bring > > your > > organization's name banner on the day of protest) * > > > > ** > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > Room 016 B > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > 416.876.7926 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > >___________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From elkamath at yahoo.com Fri Jan 18 09:11:21 2008 From: elkamath at yahoo.com (lalitha kamath) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:41:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] "regulators should intervene in banker's pay" by Martin Wolf Message-ID: <542688.61228.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> FYI Regulators should intervene in bankers’ pay By Martin Wolf Published: January 15 2008 17:35 | Last updated: January 16 2008 05:16 You really don’t like bankers, do you?” The question, asked by a former banker I met last week, set me back. “Not at all,” I replied. “Some of my best friends are bankers.” While true, it was not the whole truth. I may like many bankers, but I rather dislike banks. I recognise their necessity, but fear their irresponsibility. Worse, they are irresponsible partly because they know they are necessary. My attitude to the banking industry is not a prejudice. It is a “postjudice”. My first experience with out-of-control banking was when I watched the irresponsible lending that led to the devastating developing-country debt crises of the 1980s. The world has witnessed well over 100 significant banking crises over the past three decades. The authorities have even had to rescue important parts of the US financial system – on most counts, the world’s most sophisticated – four times during the same period: from the developing country debt and “savings and loan” crises of the 1980s to the commercial property crisis of the early 1990s and now the subprime and securitised-credit crisis of 2007-08. No industry has a comparable talent for privatising gains and socialising losses. Participants in no other industry get as self-righteously angry when public officials – particularly, central bankers – fail to come at once to their rescue when they get into (well-deserved) trouble. Yet they are right to expect rescue. They know that as long as they make the same mistakes together – as “sound bankers” do – the official sector must ride to the rescue. Bankers are able to take the economy and so the voting public hostage. Governments have no choice but to respond. Nor is it all that difficult to understand the incentives at work. I gave the broad answer in my column, “ Why banking is an accident waiting to happen” (FT, November 27 2007). It is the nature of limited liability businesses to create conflicts of interest – between management and shareholders, between management and other employees, between the business and customers and between the business and regulators. Yet the conflicts of interest created by large financial institutions are far harder to manage than in any other industry. That is so for three fundamental reasons: first, these are virtually the only businesses able to devastate entire economies; second, in no other industry is uncertainty so pervasive; and, finally, in no other industry is it as hard for outsiders to judge the quality of decision-making, at least in the short run. This industry is, in consequence, exceptional in the extent of both regulation and subsidisation. Yet this combination can hardly be deemed a success. The present crisis in the world’s most sophisticated financial system demonstrates that. I now fear that the combination of the fragility of the financial system with the huge rewards it generates for insiders will destroy something even more important – the political legitimacy of the market economy itself – across the globe. So it is time to start thinking radical thoughts about how to fix the problems. Up to now the main official effort has been to combine support with regulation: capital ratios, risk-management systems and so forth. I myself argued for higher capital requirements. Yet there are obvious difficulties with all these efforts: it is child’s play for brilliant and motivated insiders to game such regulation for their benefit. So what are the alternatives? Many market liberals would prefer to leave the financial sector to the rigours of the free market. Alas, the evidence of history is clear: we, the public, are unable to live with the consequences. An alternative suggestion is “narrow banking” combined with an unregulated (and unprotected) financial system. Narrow banks would invest in government securities, run the payment system and offer safe deposits to the public. The drawback of this ostensibly attractive idea is obvious: what is unregulated is likely to turn out to be dangerous, whereupon governments would be dragged back into the mess. No, the only way to deal with this challenge is to address the incentives head on and, as Raghuram Rajan, former chief economist of the International Monetary Fund, argued in a brilliant article last week (“ Bankers’ pay is deeply flawed”, FT, January 9 2008), the central conflict is between the employees (above all, management) and everybody else. By paying huge bonuses on the basis of short-term performance in a system in which negative bonuses are impossible, banks create gigantic incentives to disguise risk-taking as value-creation. We would be better off with Jupiter’s 12-year “year”, since it takes about that long to know how profitable strategies have been. The point is that a year is an astronomical, not an economic, phenomenon (as it once was, when harvests were decisive). So we must ensure that a substantial part of pay is better aligned to the realities of the business: that is, is made in restricted stock redeemable over a run of years (ideally, as many as 10). Yet individual institutions cannot change their systems of remuneration on their own, without losing talented staff to the competition. So regulators may have to step in. The idea of such official intervention is horrible, but the alternative of endlessly repeated crises is even worse. The big points here are, first, we cannot pretend that the way the financial system behaves is not a matter of public interest – just look at what is happening in the US and UK today; and, second, if the problem is to be fixed, incentives for decision-makers have to be better aligned with the outcomes. The further question is how far that regulatory net should stretch. I believe it should cover all systemically important financial institutions. Drawing the line will not be simple, but that is a problem with all regulation. It is not insoluble. The question the authorities need to ask themselves is simple: if a specific institution fell into substantial difficulty would they have to intervene? If the conflict of interest that dominates all others is between employees and everybody else, then it must be fixed. All bonuses and a portion of salary for top managers should be paid in restricted stock, redeemable in instalments over, say, 10 years or, if regulators are feeling generous, five. I understand that the bankers will not like this. Yet one thing is surely now quite clear: just as war is too important to be left to generals, banking is too important to be left to bankers, however much one may like them. martin.wolf at ft.com Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2008 cross-posted from DEBATE ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 10:28:54 2008 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:28:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 In-Reply-To: <908694.82450.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <908694.82450.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My dear Chanchal, Before you unsubscribe from the list, let us have a good argument. I have an appetite for one and it's strange that my appetite emerges when you are vocal on an issue. Anyhow, let's get down to the "facts". Firstly, until you do not tell me where you got the information from, I have no way to find out whether this is "correct" or "not". Secondly, I have been to Kashmir too and have been eve teased on the roads by "Hindu" soldiers if you please. (I thought patriotic souls like you don't make distinctions on religious grounds when it comes to the army??!?!?!) Thirdly, in any conflict situation where the army is brought into the picture, there are likely to be violences committed against women, whether the women are Hindu or Muslim. If you have been to Kashmir, you don't need to be reminded of what happened to the girls in the Kunan Poshpora incident? (unless of course you choose not to see this aspect of "facts" because it does not suit your position!?!) If you have ever heard of violence in Punjab, you don't need to be told of how women, irrespective of whether they are "Hindu" or "Muslim" or "Punjabi" (in case you think "Hindu" don't apply to "Punjabi" women), have been raped/coerced into sleeping with the policemen. Fourthly, on the second evening of our time in Srinagar, the boys and girls who had come with me, were sitting in the houseboat and discussing "India", "Kashmir" "Hindu-Muslim conflicts in India", etc. with Kashmiri boys. The Kashmiri boys referred to the violences against Muslims in "India" and the "Indian" girls and boys (I am going to be killed for calling one of them "Indian" because he is against state violence in Telangana) spoke of the exodus of the Pandits. At one point in the discussion, someone raised the point stating that there are enough "facts" that can be gotten to support "our points of view", and none of these would be wrong. The point is whether we are willing to budge from our *positions* and see other perspectives. You can continue to support the army and get evidences about Muslim men in the army committing violence against Hindu women and you can work the flawed logics of your flawed mathematics posed with history the way you like to see it. And you can even continue to say that you don't hate Muslims but are wanting them to raise their voices against these happenings. But why don't you have the "guts" to get down from your position and see that violence is being committed against women in almost all conflict areas whether it is Punjab or North East or Kashmir or Palestine or Nicaragua or Iraq. And here it is not a question of Hindu women versus Muslim women versus Christian women versus alien women. It is a matter of women violated by the state which manifests itself in the form of the army. I hope that as a woman, you can be sensitive to this rather than brush this aside and get into your baseless (until you quote sources and evidence) ranting about "Hindu" and "Muslim"! Apologies if I am sounding angry, but sometimes I just cannot make out what you are trying to communicate and then what you say ends up making me wonder as to where your sensitivities, logics and brain lie. Best, Zainab On Jan 17, 2008 10:37 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: > It would be great, if I am unsubscribed from this list.. > I do not want to waste my time with people who cannot see beyond the > screen... > > Thank you all... > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Kulpreet Singh > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:32:42 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi > - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > On Thursday 17 January 2008 22:27:53 Zainab Bawa wrote: > > Way to go Zainab! > > -kp > > > Dear Chanchal, > > > > Can you please quote the sources of your information? Otherwise we can > all > > cook up facts ad nauseum, to suit our points of view. > > > > Thanking you in advance, > > > > Yours truly, > > > > Zainab > > > > > > On Jan 17, 2008 9:51 PM, chanchal malviya > > > > wrote: > > > The news is correct.. But there is more depth to such news.. > > > Like the one I am quoting here.. > > > > > > In Kashmir some Army officials have been court martialed.. you all > know > > > this.. > > > But the real stories has many faces.. > > > one of them is: > > > > > > Muslim senior officers had forced junior Hindu officers to bring Hindu > > > girls for enjoyment... > > > And somehow these juniors ran away and didn't do it.. and they were > court > > > martialed.. > > > > > > So those who defame Indian Army in Kashmir and other places, must also > > > try to know the name of officers who had done the crime and just not > > > defame the whole Army.. > > > For example, we can take the case of who posted this mail... > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: OISHIK SIRCAR > > > To: peaceworksdefenders at googlegroups.com; > > > sexualityinstitute2002 at yahoogroups.co.in; sarai list < > > > reader-list at sarai.net>; ILS Across Borders < > > > ILS-Across-Borders at googlegroups.com> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 9:39:40 PM > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi > - > > > Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > > > ** > > > > > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and Armed Forces Special > > > Powers Act * > > > > > > *On the Eve of Republic Day * > > > > > > *25th January 2008 * > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > > > > > On July 15 2004, for the first time in its history, the Indian > > > "democracy" witnessed an unusual mode of protest against its > government. > > > About a dozen women came out on the street and disrobed themselves, > > > protesting against the > > > AFSPA and rape/murder of Thangjam Manorama, in front of an occupied > > > historic > > > place, the Kangla Fort in Manipur, (where the 17 th Assam Rifles > > > Battalion is stationed). > > > > > > > > > > > > The message of the protest was "INDIAN ARMY RAPE US". This novel > > > agitation sparked the awakening of many citizens inside the country as > > > well as people > > > in other parts of world, on the plight, sufferings and atrocities on > > > Manipur > > > people under the military boots. > > > > > > > > > > > > *These brave and noble women from Manipur are coming to Delhi to stir > up > > > the > > > claustrophobic Government of India, on the eve of Republic Day and > going > > > to > > > continue for a month time. The protest is being organized against the > > > Central Government's arrogant behavior, blatant propaganda and > > > insensitivity > > > towards the plight of people of Manipur * > > > > > > * * > > > > > > The Indian Government has actively encouraged violence committed by > the > > > security forces under the draconian law -- Armed Forces Special Powers > > > Act, > > > 1958 (AFSPA, 1958), which legitimizes any army personnel to shoot, > kill > > > and > > > destroy a person or a property on mere "suspicion". This Act has also > > > promoted militarization in the entire North East, where possibility > for > > > any > > > genuine legal proceedings to take place for justice or accountability > has > > > become an impossibility and use of extra-judicial killings by > > > state-promoted > > > renegade groups like the SULFA in Assam and Ikhwaanis in Kashmir with > > > complete impunity has become endemic. > > > > > > > > > > > > The country is proud to claim itself as the world's largest democracy, > > > but how it is defining it, is a real question and a mockery, when > there > > > is martial law functioning (AFSPA 1958) in North East and J&K regions > for > > > nearly last fifty years. > > > > > > > > > > > > Friends, this kleptocratic government is a clear and present danger to > > > every > > > citizen of this country. We need to protest fiercely until the system > is > > > put > > > in place, in order to ensure the security of common citizens. > > > > > > > > > > > > *We are inviting every citizens of this nation to participate in the > > > campaign to strengthen our long overdue peaceful struggle as many days > as > > > you would be able to. This is the least we can do to protest against > this > > > injustice system which saddens our hearts yet the government ignores > to > > > listen our plight. We are confident that truth will emerge victorious > > > one day through your esteem support. * > > > > > > * Looking forward for your kind presence. * > > > > > > *Please come and join on the* > > > > > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity, and the Armed Forces > Special > > > Powers Act. * > > > > > > * * > > > > > > *Date: 25th January 2008* > > > > > > *Place: Jantar Mantar * > > > > > > *Time: 1:00 pm* > > > > > > > > > > > > Recommendation for the repeal of AFSPA 1958 from government committees > > > and international organizations: > > > > > > · 1991, UN Human Rights Committee > > > > > > · 2005, Justice Jeevan Reddy Committee > > > > > > · 2006, India UN CEDAW Report > > > > > > · 2007, UN CERD > > > > > > · 2007, Administrative Reform Committee > > > > > > > > > > > > Campaign Coordinator > > > > > > Onil > > > > > > Reachout > > > > > > +91-9818781767 > > > > > > Email: onilrights at gmail.com , reachout2006 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Sundara Babu Nagappan > > > > > > Independent Researcher > > > > > > +91-9311744919 > > > > > > Email: babuubab at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sapamcha Kangleipal > > > > > > NE Youth Coordinator > > > > > > +91-9862096539 > > > > > > Email: kangleipal at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Vani Subramanian > > > > > > Saheli > > > > > > +91-9891128911 > > > > > > Email: saheliwomen at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Kavita Joshi > > > > > > Impulse > > > > > > +91-9868888642 > > > > > > Email: kj.impulse at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Tanya Mathan > > > > > > Coordinator, Voluntary Agency Placement Programme (VAPP), > > > > > > Lady Shri Ram College > > > > > > +91-9891703465 > > > > > > Email: vapp.lsr at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *(Esteemed supporters please endorsed your organization name and bring > > > your > > > organization's name banner on the day of protest) * > > > > > > ** > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > > Room 016 B > > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > > > 416.876.7926 > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > >___________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > > in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 10:33:56 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:33:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 In-Reply-To: References: <908694.82450.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801172103gff1c2cej297e0131e0115d27@mail.gmail.com> Zainab , I do not diagree that representatives of states sometimes do misuse their authority . However the difference is that when a hindu is violated he doesnt turn anti national. Regards Pawan On 1/18/08, Zainab Bawa wrote: > > My dear Chanchal, > > Before you unsubscribe from the list, let us have a good argument. I have > an > appetite for one and it's strange that my appetite emerges when you are > vocal on an issue. Anyhow, let's get down to the "facts". > > Firstly, until you do not tell me where you got the information from, I > have > no way to find out whether this is "correct" or "not". > > Secondly, I have been to Kashmir too and have been eve teased on the roads > by "Hindu" soldiers if you please. (I thought patriotic souls like you > don't > make distinctions on religious grounds when it comes to the army??!?!?!) > > Thirdly, in any conflict situation where the army is brought into the > picture, there are likely to be violences committed against women, whether > the women are Hindu or Muslim. If you have been to Kashmir, you don't need > to be reminded of what happened to the girls in the Kunan Poshpora > incident? > (unless of course you choose not to see this aspect of "facts" because it > does not suit your position!?!) If you have ever heard of violence in > Punjab, you don't need to be told of how women, irrespective of whether > they > are "Hindu" or "Muslim" or "Punjabi" (in case you think "Hindu" don't > apply > to "Punjabi" women), have been raped/coerced into sleeping with the > policemen. > > Fourthly, on the second evening of our time in Srinagar, the boys and > girls > who had come with me, were sitting in the houseboat and discussing > "India", > "Kashmir" "Hindu-Muslim conflicts in India", etc. with Kashmiri boys. The > Kashmiri boys referred to the violences against Muslims in "India" and the > "Indian" girls and boys (I am going to be killed for calling one of them > "Indian" because he is against state violence in Telangana) spoke of the > exodus of the Pandits. At one point in the discussion, someone raised the > point stating that there are enough "facts" that can be gotten to support > "our points of view", and none of these would be wrong. The point is > whether > we are willing to budge from our *positions* and see other perspectives. > > You can continue to support the army and get evidences about Muslim men in > the army committing violence against Hindu women and you can work the > flawed > logics of your flawed mathematics posed with history the way you like to > see > it. And you can even continue to say that you don't hate Muslims but are > wanting them to raise their voices against these happenings. But why don't > you have the "guts" to get down from your position and see that violence > is > being committed against women in almost all conflict areas whether it is > Punjab or North East or Kashmir or Palestine or Nicaragua or Iraq. And > here > it is not a question of Hindu women versus Muslim women versus Christian > women versus alien women. It is a matter of women violated by the state > which manifests itself in the form of the army. I hope that as a woman, > you > can be sensitive to this rather than brush this aside and get into your > baseless (until you quote sources and evidence) ranting about "Hindu" and > "Muslim"! > > Apologies if I am sounding angry, but sometimes I just cannot make out > what > you are trying to communicate and then what you say ends up making me > wonder > as to where your sensitivities, logics and brain lie. > > Best, > > Zainab > > On Jan 17, 2008 10:37 PM, chanchal malviya > wrote: > > > It would be great, if I am unsubscribed from this list.. > > I do not want to waste my time with people who cannot see beyond the > > screen... > > > > Thank you all... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Kulpreet Singh > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:32:42 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at > Delhi > > - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > On Thursday 17 January 2008 22:27:53 Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > > Way to go Zainab! > > > > -kp > > > > > Dear Chanchal, > > > > > > Can you please quote the sources of your information? Otherwise we can > > all > > > cook up facts ad nauseum, to suit our points of view. > > > > > > Thanking you in advance, > > > > > > Yours truly, > > > > > > Zainab > > > > > > > > > On Jan 17, 2008 9:51 PM, chanchal malviya > > > > > > wrote: > > > > The news is correct.. But there is more depth to such news.. > > > > Like the one I am quoting here.. > > > > > > > > In Kashmir some Army officials have been court martialed.. you all > > know > > > > this.. > > > > But the real stories has many faces.. > > > > one of them is: > > > > > > > > Muslim senior officers had forced junior Hindu officers to bring > Hindu > > > > girls for enjoyment... > > > > And somehow these juniors ran away and didn't do it.. and they were > > court > > > > martialed.. > > > > > > > > So those who defame Indian Army in Kashmir and other places, must > also > > > > try to know the name of officers who had done the crime and just not > > > > defame the whole Army.. > > > > For example, we can take the case of who posted this mail... > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > To: peaceworksdefenders at googlegroups.com; > > > > sexualityinstitute2002 at yahoogroups.co.in; sarai list < > > > > reader-list at sarai.net>; ILS Across Borders < > > > > ILS-Across-Borders at googlegroups.com> > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 9:39:40 PM > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at > Delhi > > - > > > > Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and Armed Forces Special > > > > Powers Act * > > > > > > > > *On the Eve of Republic Day * > > > > > > > > *25th January 2008 * > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On July 15 2004, for the first time in its history, the Indian > > > > "democracy" witnessed an unusual mode of protest against its > > government. > > > > About a dozen women came out on the street and disrobed themselves, > > > > protesting against the > > > > AFSPA and rape/murder of Thangjam Manorama, in front of an occupied > > > > historic > > > > place, the Kangla Fort in Manipur, (where the 17 th Assam Rifles > > > > Battalion is stationed). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The message of the protest was "INDIAN ARMY RAPE US". This novel > > > > agitation sparked the awakening of many citizens inside the country > as > > > > well as people > > > > in other parts of world, on the plight, sufferings and atrocities on > > > > Manipur > > > > people under the military boots. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *These brave and noble women from Manipur are coming to Delhi to > stir > > up > > > > the > > > > claustrophobic Government of India, on the eve of Republic Day and > > going > > > > to > > > > continue for a month time. The protest is being organized against > the > > > > Central Government's arrogant behavior, blatant propaganda and > > > > insensitivity > > > > towards the plight of people of Manipur * > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > The Indian Government has actively encouraged violence committed by > > the > > > > security forces under the draconian law -- Armed Forces Special > Powers > > > > Act, > > > > 1958 (AFSPA, 1958), which legitimizes any army personnel to shoot, > > kill > > > > and > > > > destroy a person or a property on mere "suspicion". This Act has > also > > > > promoted militarization in the entire North East, where possibility > > for > > > > any > > > > genuine legal proceedings to take place for justice or > accountability > > has > > > > become an impossibility and use of extra-judicial killings by > > > > state-promoted > > > > renegade groups like the SULFA in Assam and Ikhwaanis in Kashmir > with > > > > complete impunity has become endemic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The country is proud to claim itself as the world's largest > democracy, > > > > but how it is defining it, is a real question and a mockery, when > > there > > > > is martial law functioning (AFSPA 1958) in North East and J&K > regions > > for > > > > nearly last fifty years. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friends, this kleptocratic government is a clear and present danger > to > > > > every > > > > citizen of this country. We need to protest fiercely until the > system > > is > > > > put > > > > in place, in order to ensure the security of common citizens. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *We are inviting every citizens of this nation to participate in the > > > > campaign to strengthen our long overdue peaceful struggle as many > days > > as > > > > you would be able to. This is the least we can do to protest against > > this > > > > injustice system which saddens our hearts yet the government ignores > > to > > > > listen our plight. We are confident that truth will emerge > victorious > > > > one day through your esteem support. * > > > > > > > > * Looking forward for your kind presence. * > > > > > > > > *Please come and join on the* > > > > > > > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity, and the Armed Forces > > Special > > > > Powers Act. * > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > *Date: 25th January 2008* > > > > > > > > *Place: Jantar Mantar * > > > > > > > > *Time: 1:00 pm* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Recommendation for the repeal of AFSPA 1958 from government > committees > > > > and international organizations: > > > > > > > > · 1991, UN Human Rights Committee > > > > > > > > · 2005, Justice Jeevan Reddy Committee > > > > > > > > · 2006, India UN CEDAW Report > > > > > > > > · 2007, UN CERD > > > > > > > > · 2007, Administrative Reform Committee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Campaign Coordinator > > > > > > > > Onil > > > > > > > > Reachout > > > > > > > > +91-9818781767 > > > > > > > > Email: onilrights at gmail.com , reachout2006 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sundara Babu Nagappan > > > > > > > > Independent Researcher > > > > > > > > +91-9311744919 > > > > > > > > Email: babuubab at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sapamcha Kangleipal > > > > > > > > NE Youth Coordinator > > > > > > > > +91-9862096539 > > > > > > > > Email: kangleipal at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vani Subramanian > > > > > > > > Saheli > > > > > > > > +91-9891128911 > > > > > > > > Email: saheliwomen at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kavita Joshi > > > > > > > > Impulse > > > > > > > > +91-9868888642 > > > > > > > > Email: kj.impulse at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tanya Mathan > > > > > > > > Coordinator, Voluntary Agency Placement Programme (VAPP), > > > > > > > > Lady Shri Ram College > > > > > > > > +91-9891703465 > > > > > > > > Email: vapp.lsr at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *(Esteemed supporters please endorsed your organization name and > bring > > > > your > > > > organization's name banner on the day of protest) * > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > > > Room 016 B > > > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > > > > > 416.876.7926 > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > > >___________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe > > > in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From jace at pobox.com Fri Jan 18 10:58:06 2008 From: jace at pobox.com (Kiran Jonnalagadda) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:58:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70801172103gff1c2cej297e0131e0115d27@mail.gmail.com> References: <908694.82450.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70801172103gff1c2cej297e0131e0115d27@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <69AA8D19-494A-458E-BC21-A50EA70F4437@pobox.com> On 18-Jan-08, at 10:33 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > I do not diagree that representatives of states sometimes do misuse > their > authority . However the difference is that when a hindu is violated he > doesnt turn anti national. Pawan, Are you claiming that the supporters of the naxalite movement, LTTE and others who oppose the national apparatus are not Hindu? If you're not, could you be more specific? From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Fri Jan 18 11:11:04 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 21:41:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 Message-ID: <130256.86594.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Nice mail from you.. Let me answer each of them.. Firstly, until you do not tell me where you got the information from, I have no way to find out whether this is "correct" or "not". I cannot tell you this, and if required I can take my words back... I don't have any intention to convince others on this... I said it because I want the news should also contain names of Army personals involved in such incidences, which is never said by News channels.. hence they may be right or I may be right... Secondly, I have been to Kashmir too and have been eve teased on the roads by "Hindu" soldiers if you please. (I thought patriotic souls like you don't make distinctions on religious grounds when it comes to the army??!?!?!) I do not know you are a Hindu or a Muslim... If you can clarify this to me, but your name seems to be of a Muslims... And if so, this is expected.... I talked to a Muslim rickshaw wala at Bangalore and he tells that Muslims are facing huge problem in Kashmir by Army... What do they know and how do they know? Answer is known to all Muslims... Thirdly, in any conflict situation where the army is brought into the picture, there are likely to be violences committed against women, whether the women are Hindu or Muslim. If you have been to Kashmir, you don't need to be reminded of what happened to the girls in the Kunan Poshpora incident? (unless of course you choose not to see this aspect of "facts" because it does not suit your position!?!) If you have ever heard of violence in Punjab, you don't need to be told of how women, irrespective of whether they are "Hindu" or "Muslim" or "Punjabi" (in case you think "Hindu" don't apply to "Punjabi" women), have been raped/coerced into sleeping with the policemen. Molestations is crime, purely written as per Acts and Laws in this country... Is it same in Islamic culture? I do not want to bring out things that are internal to Muslims, they have a separate law for their society and anything happening in their society is not liable to thrown on Governance of India... Imrana case is one among many that says the story... If you talk about Hindus, as per the religion, as per Vedas, God do not exist where women are not there.. Women are treated as Laxmi in every house.. There are various forms of Shakti that are worshipped (Durga puja as an example)... So, Hindus know how to treat women as a cultural practice.. The events of mistreating women, of course, takes place here also and there are clear laws to deal with them.. Unlike Islam a women can raise her voice with effect and without any man's support... Fourthly, on the second evening of our time in Srinagar, the boys and girls who had come with me, were sitting in the houseboat and discussing "India", "Kashmir" "Hindu-Muslim conflicts in India", etc. with Kashmiri boys. The Kashmiri boys referred to the violences against Muslims in "India" and the "Indian" girls and boys (I am going to be killed for calling one of them "Indian" because he is against state violence in Telangana) spoke of the exodus of the Pandits. At one point in the discussion, someone raised the point stating that there are enough "facts" that can be gotten to support "our points of view", and none of these would be wrong. The point is whether we are willing to budge from our positions and see other perspectives. I do not understand what is voilence in your words... Do you mean to say that Hindus in India blasts bombs in Muslim areas.. Do you mean to say that Hindus in India rape Muslim women... Please, do not say things that has no meaning.. It is always the other way round.. and I need not present evidences.. there are hundreds of them taking place.. As far as riots are concerned.. they are nearly always initiated by Muslims and Hindus being in majority somehow proves to be among the suppressors.. For example, Gujarat riot was an initiation took by Muslims when they gathered in thousands with weapons and arms to burn around 60 hindus alive in train... Do not tell me that Hindus are also doing the same in Islamic countries... I know that they all are paying Jazya and at times they are attacked, their temples are all broken... You can continue to support the army and get evidences about Muslim men in the army committing violence against Hindu women and you can work the flawed logics of your flawed mathematics posed with history the way you like to see it. And you can even continue to say that you don't hate Muslims but are wanting them to raise their voices against these happenings. But why don't you have the "guts" to get down from your position and see that violence is being committed against women in almost all conflict areas whether it is Punjab or North East or Kashmir or Palestine or Nicaragua or Iraq. And here it is not a question of Hindu women versus Muslim women versus Christian women versus alien women. It is a matter of women violated by the state which manifests itself in the form of the army. I hope that as a woman, you can be sensitive to this rather than brush this aside and get into your baseless (until you quote sources and evidence) ranting about "Hindu" and "Muslim"! Women has the right place in only one community of the world.. At least in terms of religious texts, it is Hinduism alone that teaches to worship women... Women are physically weak and due to this, they have faced problems largely in all societies, to which I agree totally.. Hindus have categorized it a criminalized act... Dear friend, Hindus have learnt to worship Cow as a mother, river as a mother, nation as a mother... Swami Vivekanand said - In west, except for mother all are women are life wife, but among Hindus every other women than wife is a mother... This is the basic culture of Hindus... The events that you talk about (mistreatment of women) takes place with girls and women who have discarded their religion.. they want freedom like western girl and they are facing problems alike western girls... I am very clear on a simple point - if a girl or woman knows to have respect and honor for herself, no Hindus will ever try to even look at her even in disguise - this is the true meaning of Satitva (not the Sati pratha that is known to the world).... Apologies if I am sounding angry, but sometimes I just cannot make out what you are trying to communicate and then what you say ends up making me wonder as to where your sensitivities, logics and brain lie. You are welcome to attack... I do not mind... As I said, if you are Muslim I do not mind at all... because Muslims know what they are doing... and they are united enough to do it.... The greatest enemy of Hindus are Hindus only... they never know what they are doing.. they never understand what is Secularism... they themselves never have respected their own religion... They have not even tried to know what is in their religion... They are idiots... And it is because of that they are facing problems... You can see, where Hindus are actually dominant (Areas of Gujarat can be taken as example).. you will not find problems even for Muslims... It the so called modern visioned Hindus, who live on Wine and think freedom is enjoying women and having girl friends that are facing all problems... Majority of molestations take place with these type of girls.... But what I told about Kashmir is also true... Hindu women were dragged out of Hindu families and the families were thrown out of the state... There is no doubt about it... And I can list down to you the families who have still their women members missing and living in various regions of the nation... I have read Quran and I know what it teaches... How it starts and how it slowly hardens and shapes the mind of its followers... It is completely against all other religions.. and nowhere teaches peace... At least, you cannot convince someone who have read it... Anyway, that is a literature meant for Muslims and we do not have to do anything in that... we can from outside only suggest, do not kill, do not hate... here is a group of people who are not religious - for even Supreme Court said that Hinduism is not a Religion, it is a way of life - then what is wrong with my Hindu friends to talk on Hinduism... for they would be actually talking Humanity then... Best regards, ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From faiz.outsider at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 11:15:36 2008 From: faiz.outsider at gmail.com (faiz ullah) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:15:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70801172103gff1c2cej297e0131e0115d27@mail.gmail.com> References: <908694.82450.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70801172103gff1c2cej297e0131e0115d27@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <96c0bb200801172145g5bd99f3fof5e61ed97d65c30a@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, I've not been able to understand the idea of nationalism to this day, and I sincerely believe that its meaning (if there is one) will elude me for the rest of my life. Likewise, it beats me when i try to understand what 'turning' into an anti national means. Whom does a nationalist love (its people, land, offices, poor?) and whom does an anti-national go ahead and hurt (its people, land, offices, poor?). Just in case you're not up to writing a response, please do take out some time to answer the following multiple choice question... Deriving from the statement : "When a hindu is violated he doesn't turn anti national" please choose the correct or approximate analogy a. When a muslim/christian/sikh/parsi is violated he always turns anti national b. When a muslim/christian/sikh/parsi is violated he might turns anti national c. When a muslim/christian/sikh/parsi is violated he should turns anti national thanks On Jan 18, 2008 10:33 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Zainab , > > I do not diagree that representatives of states sometimes do misuse their > authority . However the difference is that when a hindu is violated he > doesnt turn anti national. > > Regards > > Pawan > > > On 1/18/08, Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > > My dear Chanchal, > > > > Before you unsubscribe from the list, let us have a good argument. I > have > > an > > appetite for one and it's strange that my appetite emerges when you are > > vocal on an issue. Anyhow, let's get down to the "facts". > > > > Firstly, until you do not tell me where you got the information from, I > > have > > no way to find out whether this is "correct" or "not". > > > > Secondly, I have been to Kashmir too and have been eve teased on the > roads > > by "Hindu" soldiers if you please. (I thought patriotic souls like you > > don't > > make distinctions on religious grounds when it comes to the army??!?!?!) > > > > Thirdly, in any conflict situation where the army is brought into the > > picture, there are likely to be violences committed against women, > whether > > the women are Hindu or Muslim. If you have been to Kashmir, you don't > need > > to be reminded of what happened to the girls in the Kunan Poshpora > > incident? > > (unless of course you choose not to see this aspect of "facts" because > it > > does not suit your position!?!) If you have ever heard of violence in > > Punjab, you don't need to be told of how women, irrespective of whether > > they > > are "Hindu" or "Muslim" or "Punjabi" (in case you think "Hindu" don't > > apply > > to "Punjabi" women), have been raped/coerced into sleeping with the > > policemen. > > > > Fourthly, on the second evening of our time in Srinagar, the boys and > > girls > > who had come with me, were sitting in the houseboat and discussing > > "India", > > "Kashmir" "Hindu-Muslim conflicts in India", etc. with Kashmiri boys. > The > > Kashmiri boys referred to the violences against Muslims in "India" and > the > > "Indian" girls and boys (I am going to be killed for calling one of them > > "Indian" because he is against state violence in Telangana) spoke of the > > exodus of the Pandits. At one point in the discussion, someone raised > the > > point stating that there are enough "facts" that can be gotten to > support > > "our points of view", and none of these would be wrong. The point is > > whether > > we are willing to budge from our *positions* and see other perspectives. > > > > You can continue to support the army and get evidences about Muslim men > in > > the army committing violence against Hindu women and you can work the > > flawed > > logics of your flawed mathematics posed with history the way you like to > > see > > it. And you can even continue to say that you don't hate Muslims but are > > wanting them to raise their voices against these happenings. But why > don't > > you have the "guts" to get down from your position and see that violence > > is > > being committed against women in almost all conflict areas whether it is > > Punjab or North East or Kashmir or Palestine or Nicaragua or Iraq. And > > here > > it is not a question of Hindu women versus Muslim women versus Christian > > women versus alien women. It is a matter of women violated by the state > > which manifests itself in the form of the army. I hope that as a woman, > > you > > can be sensitive to this rather than brush this aside and get into your > > baseless (until you quote sources and evidence) ranting about "Hindu" > and > > "Muslim"! > > > > Apologies if I am sounding angry, but sometimes I just cannot make out > > what > > you are trying to communicate and then what you say ends up making me > > wonder > > as to where your sensitivities, logics and brain lie. > > > > Best, > > > > Zainab > > > > On Jan 17, 2008 10:37 PM, chanchal malviya > > wrote: > > > > > It would be great, if I am unsubscribed from this list.. > > > I do not want to waste my time with people who cannot see beyond the > > > screen... > > > > > > Thank you all... > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Kulpreet Singh > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:32:42 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at > > Delhi > > > - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > > > On Thursday 17 January 2008 22:27:53 Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > > > > Way to go Zainab! > > > > > > -kp > > > > > > > Dear Chanchal, > > > > > > > > Can you please quote the sources of your information? Otherwise we > can > > > all > > > > cook up facts ad nauseum, to suit our points of view. > > > > > > > > Thanking you in advance, > > > > > > > > Yours truly, > > > > > > > > Zainab > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 17, 2008 9:51 PM, chanchal malviya < > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > The news is correct.. But there is more depth to such news.. > > > > > Like the one I am quoting here.. > > > > > > > > > > In Kashmir some Army officials have been court martialed.. you all > > > know > > > > > this.. > > > > > But the real stories has many faces.. > > > > > one of them is: > > > > > > > > > > Muslim senior officers had forced junior Hindu officers to bring > > Hindu > > > > > girls for enjoyment... > > > > > And somehow these juniors ran away and didn't do it.. and they > were > > > court > > > > > martialed.. > > > > > > > > > > So those who defame Indian Army in Kashmir and other places, must > > also > > > > > try to know the name of officers who had done the crime and just > not > > > > > defame the whole Army.. > > > > > For example, we can take the case of who posted this mail... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > > From: OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > To: peaceworksdefenders at googlegroups.com; > > > > > sexualityinstitute2002 at yahoogroups.co.in; sarai list < > > > > > reader-list at sarai.net>; ILS Across Borders < > > > > > ILS-Across-Borders at googlegroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 9:39:40 PM > > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at > > Delhi > > > - > > > > > Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and Armed Forces > Special > > > > > Powers Act * > > > > > > > > > > *On the Eve of Republic Day * > > > > > > > > > > *25th January 2008 * > > > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On July 15 2004, for the first time in its history, the Indian > > > > > "democracy" witnessed an unusual mode of protest against its > > > government. > > > > > About a dozen women came out on the street and disrobed > themselves, > > > > > protesting against the > > > > > AFSPA and rape/murder of Thangjam Manorama, in front of an > occupied > > > > > historic > > > > > place, the Kangla Fort in Manipur, (where the 17 th Assam Rifles > > > > > Battalion is stationed). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The message of the protest was "INDIAN ARMY RAPE US". This novel > > > > > agitation sparked the awakening of many citizens inside the > country > > as > > > > > well as people > > > > > in other parts of world, on the plight, sufferings and atrocities > on > > > > > Manipur > > > > > people under the military boots. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *These brave and noble women from Manipur are coming to Delhi to > > stir > > > up > > > > > the > > > > > claustrophobic Government of India, on the eve of Republic Day and > > > going > > > > > to > > > > > continue for a month time. The protest is being organized against > > the > > > > > Central Government's arrogant behavior, blatant propaganda and > > > > > insensitivity > > > > > towards the plight of people of Manipur * > > > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > > > The Indian Government has actively encouraged violence committed > by > > > the > > > > > security forces under the draconian law -- Armed Forces Special > > Powers > > > > > Act, > > > > > 1958 (AFSPA, 1958), which legitimizes any army personnel to shoot, > > > kill > > > > > and > > > > > destroy a person or a property on mere "suspicion". This Act has > > also > > > > > promoted militarization in the entire North East, where > possibility > > > for > > > > > any > > > > > genuine legal proceedings to take place for justice or > > accountability > > > has > > > > > become an impossibility and use of extra-judicial killings by > > > > > state-promoted > > > > > renegade groups like the SULFA in Assam and Ikhwaanis in Kashmir > > with > > > > > complete impunity has become endemic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The country is proud to claim itself as the world's largest > > democracy, > > > > > but how it is defining it, is a real question and a mockery, when > > > there > > > > > is martial law functioning (AFSPA 1958) in North East and J&K > > regions > > > for > > > > > nearly last fifty years. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friends, this kleptocratic government is a clear and present > danger > > to > > > > > every > > > > > citizen of this country. We need to protest fiercely until the > > system > > > is > > > > > put > > > > > in place, in order to ensure the security of common citizens. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *We are inviting every citizens of this nation to participate in > the > > > > > campaign to strengthen our long overdue peaceful struggle as many > > days > > > as > > > > > you would be able to. This is the least we can do to protest > against > > > this > > > > > injustice system which saddens our hearts yet the government > ignores > > > to > > > > > listen our plight. We are confident that truth will emerge > > victorious > > > > > one day through your esteem support. * > > > > > > > > > > * Looking forward for your kind presence. * > > > > > > > > > > *Please come and join on the* > > > > > > > > > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity, and the Armed Forces > > > Special > > > > > Powers Act. * > > > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > > > *Date: 25th January 2008* > > > > > > > > > > *Place: Jantar Mantar * > > > > > > > > > > *Time: 1:00 pm* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Recommendation for the repeal of AFSPA 1958 from government > > committees > > > > > and international organizations: > > > > > > > > > > · 1991, UN Human Rights Committee > > > > > > > > > > · 2005, Justice Jeevan Reddy Committee > > > > > > > > > > · 2006, India UN CEDAW Report > > > > > > > > > > · 2007, UN CERD > > > > > > > > > > · 2007, Administrative Reform Committee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Campaign Coordinator > > > > > > > > > > Onil > > > > > > > > > > Reachout > > > > > > > > > > +91-9818781767 > > > > > > > > > > Email: onilrights at gmail.com , reachout2006 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sundara Babu Nagappan > > > > > > > > > > Independent Researcher > > > > > > > > > > +91-9311744919 > > > > > > > > > > Email: babuubab at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sapamcha Kangleipal > > > > > > > > > > NE Youth Coordinator > > > > > > > > > > +91-9862096539 > > > > > > > > > > Email: kangleipal at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vani Subramanian > > > > > > > > > > Saheli > > > > > > > > > > +91-9891128911 > > > > > > > > > > Email: saheliwomen at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kavita Joshi > > > > > > > > > > Impulse > > > > > > > > > > +91-9868888642 > > > > > > > > > > Email: kj.impulse at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tanya Mathan > > > > > > > > > > Coordinator, Voluntary Agency Placement Programme (VAPP), > > > > > > > > > > Lady Shri Ram College > > > > > > > > > > +91-9891703465 > > > > > > > > > > Email: vapp.lsr at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *(Esteemed supporters please endorsed your organization name and > > bring > > > > > your > > > > > organization's name banner on the day of protest) * > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > > > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > > > > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > > > > Room 016 B > > > > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > > > > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > > > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > > > > > > > 416.876.7926 > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > > > >___________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > > > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe > > > > in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- faiz From faiz.outsider at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 11:21:24 2008 From: faiz.outsider at gmail.com (faiz ullah) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:21:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 In-Reply-To: <96c0bb200801172145g5bd99f3fof5e61ed97d65c30a@mail.gmail.com> References: <908694.82450.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70801172103gff1c2cej297e0131e0115d27@mail.gmail.com> <96c0bb200801172145g5bd99f3fof5e61ed97d65c30a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <96c0bb200801172151m6a2fc9b1ie0826bc000e55fba@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, I've not been able to understand the idea of nationalism to this day, and I sincerely believe that its meaning (if there is one) will elude me for the rest of my life. Likewise, it beats me when i try to understand what 'turning' into an anti national means. Whom does a nationalist love (its people, land, offices, poor?) and whom does an anti-national go ahead and hurt (its people, land, offices, poor?). Just in case you're not up to writing a response, please do take out some time to answer the following multiple choice question... Deriving from the statement : "When a hindu is violated he doesn't turn anti national" please choose the correct or approximate analogy a. When a muslim/christian/sikh/parsi is violated he always turns anti national b. When a muslim/christian/sikh/parsi is violated he might turn anti national c. When a muslim/christian/sikh/parsi is violated he should turn anti national thanks On Jan 18, 2008 10:33 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Zainab , > > I do not diagree that representatives of states sometimes do misuse their > authority . However the difference is that when a hindu is violated he > doesnt turn anti national. > > Regards > > Pawan > > > On 1/18/08, Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > > My dear Chanchal, > > > > Before you unsubscribe from the list, let us have a good argument. I > have > > an > > appetite for one and it's strange that my appetite emerges when you are > > vocal on an issue. Anyhow, let's get down to the "facts". > > > > Firstly, until you do not tell me where you got the information from, I > > have > > no way to find out whether this is "correct" or "not". > > > > Secondly, I have been to Kashmir too and have been eve teased on the > roads > > by "Hindu" soldiers if you please. (I thought patriotic souls like you > > don't > > make distinctions on religious grounds when it comes to the army??!?!?!) > > > > Thirdly, in any conflict situation where the army is brought into the > > picture, there are likely to be violences committed against women, > whether > > the women are Hindu or Muslim. If you have been to Kashmir, you don't > need > > to be reminded of what happened to the girls in the Kunan Poshpora > > incident? > > (unless of course you choose not to see this aspect of "facts" because > it > > does not suit your position!?!) If you have ever heard of violence in > > Punjab, you don't need to be told of how women, irrespective of whether > > they > > are "Hindu" or "Muslim" or "Punjabi" (in case you think "Hindu" don't > > apply > > to "Punjabi" women), have been raped/coerced into sleeping with the > > policemen. > > > > Fourthly, on the second evening of our time in Srinagar, the boys and > > girls > > who had come with me, were sitting in the houseboat and discussing > > "India", > > "Kashmir" "Hindu-Muslim conflicts in India", etc. with Kashmiri boys. > The > > Kashmiri boys referred to the violences against Muslims in "India" and > the > > "Indian" girls and boys (I am going to be killed for calling one of them > > "Indian" because he is against state violence in Telangana) spoke of the > > exodus of the Pandits. At one point in the discussion, someone raised > the > > point stating that there are enough "facts" that can be gotten to > support > > "our points of view", and none of these would be wrong. The point is > > whether > > we are willing to budge from our *positions* and see other perspectives. > > > > > You can continue to support the army and get evidences about Muslim men > in > > the army committing violence against Hindu women and you can work the > > flawed > > logics of your flawed mathematics posed with history the way you like to > > > see > > it. And you can even continue to say that you don't hate Muslims but are > > wanting them to raise their voices against these happenings. But why > don't > > you have the "guts" to get down from your position and see that violence > > > is > > being committed against women in almost all conflict areas whether it is > > Punjab or North East or Kashmir or Palestine or Nicaragua or Iraq. And > > here > > it is not a question of Hindu women versus Muslim women versus Christian > > > women versus alien women. It is a matter of women violated by the state > > which manifests itself in the form of the army. I hope that as a woman, > > you > > can be sensitive to this rather than brush this aside and get into your > > baseless (until you quote sources and evidence) ranting about "Hindu" > and > > "Muslim"! > > > > Apologies if I am sounding angry, but sometimes I just cannot make out > > what > > you are trying to communicate and then what you say ends up making me > > wonder > > as to where your sensitivities, logics and brain lie. > > > > Best, > > > > Zainab > > > > On Jan 17, 2008 10:37 PM, chanchal malviya < chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > > wrote: > > > > > It would be great, if I am unsubscribed from this list.. > > > I do not want to waste my time with people who cannot see beyond the > > > screen... > > > > > > Thank you all... > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Kulpreet Singh > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:32:42 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at > > Delhi > > > - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > > > On Thursday 17 January 2008 22:27:53 Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > > > > Way to go Zainab! > > > > > > -kp > > > > > > > Dear Chanchal, > > > > > > > > Can you please quote the sources of your information? Otherwise we > can > > > all > > > > cook up facts ad nauseum, to suit our points of view. > > > > > > > > Thanking you in advance, > > > > > > > > Yours truly, > > > > > > > > Zainab > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 17, 2008 9:51 PM, chanchal malviya < > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > The news is correct.. But there is more depth to such news.. > > > > > Like the one I am quoting here.. > > > > > > > > > > In Kashmir some Army officials have been court martialed.. you all > > > know > > > > > this.. > > > > > But the real stories has many faces.. > > > > > one of them is: > > > > > > > > > > Muslim senior officers had forced junior Hindu officers to bring > > Hindu > > > > > girls for enjoyment... > > > > > And somehow these juniors ran away and didn't do it.. and they > were > > > court > > > > > martialed.. > > > > > > > > > > So those who defame Indian Army in Kashmir and other places, must > > also > > > > > try to know the name of officers who had done the crime and just > not > > > > > defame the whole Army.. > > > > > For example, we can take the case of who posted this mail... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > > From: OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > To: peaceworksdefenders at googlegroups.com ; > > > > > sexualityinstitute2002 at yahoogroups.co.in; sarai list < > > > > > reader-list at sarai.net >; ILS Across Borders < > > > > > ILS-Across-Borders at googlegroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 9:39:40 PM > > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at > > Delhi > > > - > > > > > Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and Armed Forces > Special > > > > > Powers Act * > > > > > > > > > > *On the Eve of Republic Day * > > > > > > > > > > *25th January 2008 * > > > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On July 15 2004, for the first time in its history, the Indian > > > > > "democracy" witnessed an unusual mode of protest against its > > > government. > > > > > About a dozen women came out on the street and disrobed > themselves, > > > > > protesting against the > > > > > AFSPA and rape/murder of Thangjam Manorama, in front of an > occupied > > > > > historic > > > > > place, the Kangla Fort in Manipur, (where the 17 th Assam Rifles > > > > > Battalion is stationed). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The message of the protest was "INDIAN ARMY RAPE US". This novel > > > > > agitation sparked the awakening of many citizens inside the > country > > as > > > > > well as people > > > > > in other parts of world, on the plight, sufferings and atrocities > on > > > > > Manipur > > > > > people under the military boots. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *These brave and noble women from Manipur are coming to Delhi to > > stir > > > up > > > > > the > > > > > claustrophobic Government of India, on the eve of Republic Day and > > > > going > > > > > to > > > > > continue for a month time. The protest is being organized against > > the > > > > > Central Government's arrogant behavior, blatant propaganda and > > > > > insensitivity > > > > > towards the plight of people of Manipur * > > > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > > > The Indian Government has actively encouraged violence committed > by > > > the > > > > > security forces under the draconian law -- Armed Forces Special > > Powers > > > > > Act, > > > > > 1958 (AFSPA, 1958), which legitimizes any army personnel to shoot, > > > > kill > > > > > and > > > > > destroy a person or a property on mere "suspicion". This Act has > > also > > > > > promoted militarization in the entire North East, where > possibility > > > for > > > > > any > > > > > genuine legal proceedings to take place for justice or > > accountability > > > has > > > > > become an impossibility and use of extra-judicial killings by > > > > > state-promoted > > > > > renegade groups like the SULFA in Assam and Ikhwaanis in Kashmir > > with > > > > > complete impunity has become endemic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The country is proud to claim itself as the world's largest > > democracy, > > > > > but how it is defining it, is a real question and a mockery, when > > > there > > > > > is martial law functioning (AFSPA 1958) in North East and J&K > > regions > > > for > > > > > nearly last fifty years. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friends, this kleptocratic government is a clear and present > danger > > to > > > > > every > > > > > citizen of this country. We need to protest fiercely until the > > system > > > is > > > > > put > > > > > in place, in order to ensure the security of common citizens. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *We are inviting every citizens of this nation to participate in > the > > > > > campaign to strengthen our long overdue peaceful struggle as many > > days > > > as > > > > > you would be able to. This is the least we can do to protest > against > > > this > > > > > injustice system which saddens our hearts yet the government > ignores > > > to > > > > > listen our plight. We are confident that truth will emerge > > victorious > > > > > one day through your esteem support. * > > > > > > > > > > * Looking forward for your kind presence. * > > > > > > > > > > *Please come and join on the* > > > > > > > > > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity, and the Armed Forces > > > Special > > > > > Powers Act. * > > > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > > > *Date: 25th January 2008* > > > > > > > > > > *Place: Jantar Mantar * > > > > > > > > > > *Time: 1:00 pm* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Recommendation for the repeal of AFSPA 1958 from government > > committees > > > > > and international organizations: > > > > > > > > > > · 1991, UN Human Rights Committee > > > > > > > > > > · 2005, Justice Jeevan Reddy Committee > > > > > > > > > > · 2006, India UN CEDAW Report > > > > > > > > > > · 2007, UN CERD > > > > > > > > > > · 2007, Administrative Reform Committee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Campaign Coordinator > > > > > > > > > > Onil > > > > > > > > > > Reachout > > > > > > > > > > +91-9818781767 > > > > > > > > > > Email: onilrights at gmail.com , reachout2006 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sundara Babu Nagappan > > > > > > > > > > Independent Researcher > > > > > > > > > > +91-9311744919 > > > > > > > > > > Email: babuubab at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sapamcha Kangleipal > > > > > > > > > > NE Youth Coordinator > > > > > > > > > > +91-9862096539 > > > > > > > > > > Email: kangleipal at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vani Subramanian > > > > > > > > > > Saheli > > > > > > > > > > +91-9891128911 > > > > > > > > > > Email: saheliwomen at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kavita Joshi > > > > > > > > > > Impulse > > > > > > > > > > +91-9868888642 > > > > > > > > > > Email: kj.impulse at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tanya Mathan > > > > > > > > > > Coordinator, Voluntary Agency Placement Programme (VAPP), > > > > > > > > > > Lady Shri Ram College > > > > > > > > > > +91-9891703465 > > > > > > > > > > Email: vapp.lsr at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *(Esteemed supporters please endorsed your organization name and > > bring > > > > > your > > > > > organization's name banner on the day of protest) * > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > > > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > > > > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > > > > Room 016 B > > > > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > > > > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > > > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > > > > > > > 416.876.7926 > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > > > >___________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > > > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe > > > > in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- faiz -- faiz From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Fri Jan 18 11:33:03 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:03:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 Message-ID: <728776.33572.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> 1. Who are providing Arms to Naxals? 2. How many nations are they terrorizing? 3. What religious motivation guides them to do so? 4. Which religious book of Hindu has asked them to do so? 1. Which law of Islam or any Islamic country have punished any of these terrorists? 2. How many Mullahs have declared Fatwa agains even one terrorist? 3. How many Muslim road show have taken place again hundreds of Terrorist attacks? Even the Criminalized section of Hindus are not fighting in the name of religion... They do so because they are criminals and there are clear law to deal with them (not religion)... There is a difference... better to be understood... ----- Original Message ---- From: Kiran Jonnalagadda To: Pawan Durani Cc: reader-list list Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 10:58:06 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 On 18-Jan-08, at 10:33 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > I do not diagree that representatives of states sometimes do misuse > their > authority . However the difference is that when a hindu is violated he > doesnt turn anti national. Pawan, Are you claiming that the supporters of the naxalite movement, LTTE and others who oppose the national apparatus are not Hindu? If you're not, could you be more specific? _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Fri Jan 18 11:47:37 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:17:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 Message-ID: <96030.66859.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Here goes the answer you are looking for.. Deriving from the statement : "When a hindu is violated he doesn't turn anti national" please choose the correct or approximate analogy a. When a muslim/christian/sikh/parsi is violated he always turns anti national Hindus are not engaged in Conversions either in their own country or in any other nation.. It is Muslim and Christians who have demanded Hindus to convert to their religion and there is huge work going in this direction even today... India is still captive of Religios Invasion... Sikhs are basically Hindus and Hindus have never separated themselves from them... It is Congress that did the dirty game of killing them in revenge of Indira Gandhi assasination (no congress men has ever been killed by any Muslim - Why?) Why can't Muslim or Christian respect Hindus and let them live in their own religious beliefs? Most of the time, Bajrang Dal and VHP are treated wrongly because of their resistance massly towards this Conversion move of Anti-National people... I repeat again, a Hindu doing Crime is a Crime and there is penal act to punish him... It is not the same with Muslims... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From jace at pobox.com Fri Jan 18 11:58:24 2008 From: jace at pobox.com (Kiran Jonnalagadda) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:58:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 In-Reply-To: <728776.33572.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <728776.33572.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Chanchal, I appreciate your concerns, but this is not a discussion I'm interested in having. My only interest is in some clarity on Pawan's generalisation between religion and anti-nationalism. Thank you. -- Kiran Jonnalagadda http://jace.seacrow.com/ On 18-Jan-08, at 11:33 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: > 1. Who are providing Arms to Naxals? > 2. How many nations are they terrorizing? > 3. What religious motivation guides them to do so? > 4. Which religious book of Hindu has asked them to do so? > > 1. Which law of Islam or any Islamic country have punished any of > these terrorists? > 2. How many Mullahs have declared Fatwa agains even one terrorist? > 3. How many Muslim road show have taken place again hundreds of > Terrorist attacks? > > Even the Criminalized section of Hindus are not fighting in the name > of religion... They do so because they are criminals and there are > clear law to deal with them (not religion)... > > There is a difference... better to be understood... > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Kiran Jonnalagadda > To: Pawan Durani > Cc: reader-list list > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 10:58:06 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at > Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > On 18-Jan-08, at 10:33 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > I do not diagree that representatives of states sometimes do misuse > > their > > authority . However the difference is that when a hindu is > violated he > > doesnt turn anti national. > > Pawan, > > Are you claiming that the supporters of the naxalite movement, LTTE > and others who oppose the national apparatus are not Hindu? > > If you're not, could you be more specific? > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > Search. From faiz.outsider at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 11:58:49 2008 From: faiz.outsider at gmail.com (faiz ullah) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:58:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 In-Reply-To: <96030.66859.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <96030.66859.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <96c0bb200801172228t306e7b39q31b13aed8eb5b380@mail.gmail.com> thanks chanchal ! have a good day... On Jan 18, 2008 11:47 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: > Here goes the answer you are looking for.. > > *Deriving from the statement : "When a hindu is violated he doesn't turn > anti > national" please choose the correct or approximate analogy > > a. When a muslim/christian/sikh/parsi is violated he always turns anti > national* > Hindus are not engaged in Conversions either in their own country or in > any other nation.. It is Muslim and Christians who have demanded Hindus to > convert to their religion and there is huge work going in this direction > even today... India is still captive of Religios Invasion... > Sikhs are basically Hindus and Hindus have never separated themselves from > them... It is Congress that did the dirty game of killing them in revenge of > Indira Gandhi assasination (no congress men has ever been killed by any > Muslim - Why?) > > Why can't Muslim or Christian respect Hindus and let them live in their > own religious beliefs? Most of the time, Bajrang Dal and VHP are treated > wrongly because of their resistance massly towards this Conversion move of > Anti-National people... > > I repeat again, a Hindu doing Crime is a Crime and there is penal act to > punish him... It is not the same with Muslims... > > > ------------------------------ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > -- faiz From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Fri Jan 18 12:07:28 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:37:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 Message-ID: <764558.96232.qm@web90411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Kiran, I do not think I am away from the topic of generalization between Religion and Anti-Nationalism.... Please consider my following points: 1. What is nationalism? Is it not about the nation - who worships the nation as Mother? 2. What is Religion? Is it not about the texts that demands to be in boundaries? Are Hindus actually a religious group? Why did Supreme court declare that Hinduism is a way of life and not a religion? What I want to bring into picture is, It is Hinduism alone that teaches Nationalism. Islam and Christianism are invaded religions. Hindus have accepted them and Secularism was defined to allow them to live with love. But they never came out of their religious boundaries - they yet demands Hindus to convert. Muslims have discarded Vande Matram (Isn't it Anti-National). Muslims do not protest against Terrorism (Isn't it Anti-National). Same people constitutes the nation, who constitutes the Religion. For a Hindu, nation is everything - the biggest of all 'Mata'. Have a Muslim ever said that India is bigger to them then Islam? This where these two entities are correlated. The generalization lies only with Hindus today - this is a ground fact. What is shown superfitially, I do not want to comment on that further. ----- Original Message ---- From: Kiran Jonnalagadda To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list list Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 11:58:24 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 Dear Chanchal, I appreciate your concerns, but this is not a discussion I'm interested in having. My only interest is in some clarity on Pawan's generalisation between religion and anti-nationalism. Thank you. -- Kiran Jonnalagadda http://jace.seacrow.com/ On 18-Jan-08, at 11:33 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: > 1. Who are providing Arms to Naxals? > 2. How many nations are they terrorizing? > 3. What religious motivation guides them to do so? > 4. Which religious book of Hindu has asked them to do so? > > 1. Which law of Islam or any Islamic country have punished any of > these terrorists? > 2. How many Mullahs have declared Fatwa agains even one terrorist? > 3. How many Muslim road show have taken place again hundreds of > Terrorist attacks? > > Even the Criminalized section of Hindus are not fighting in the name > of religion... They do so because they are criminals and there are > clear law to deal with them (not religion)... > > There is a difference... better to be understood... > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Kiran Jonnalagadda > To: Pawan Durani > Cc: reader-list list > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 10:58:06 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at > Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > On 18-Jan-08, at 10:33 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > I do not diagree that representatives of states sometimes do misuse > > their > > authority . However the difference is that when a hindu is > violated he > > doesnt turn anti national. > > Pawan, > > Are you claiming that the supporters of the naxalite movement, LTTE > and others who oppose the national apparatus are not Hindu? > > If you're not, could you be more specific? > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > Search. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From jace at pobox.com Fri Jan 18 12:11:15 2008 From: jace at pobox.com (Kiran Jonnalagadda) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 12:11:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 In-Reply-To: <764558.96232.qm@web90411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <764558.96232.qm@web90411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9C4C80D0-7B17-4F1B-BED1-153849FF66D1@pobox.com> Dear Chanchal, I'm afraid you fail to convince me, and further, that I have no interest in this discussion and that therefore your energies are better expended with someone else. I am only interested in a clarification from Pawan. -- Kiran Jonnalagadda http://jace.seacrow.com/ On 18-Jan-08, at 12:07 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: > Dear Kiran, > > I do not think I am away from the topic of generalization between > Religion and Anti-Nationalism.... > Please consider my following points: > > 1. What is nationalism? Is it not about the nation - who worships > the nation as Mother? > 2. What is Religion? Is it not about the texts that demands to be in > boundaries? Are Hindus actually a religious group? Why did Supreme > court declare that Hinduism is a way of life and not a religion? > > What I want to bring into picture is, It is Hinduism alone that > teaches Nationalism. Islam and Christianism are invaded religions. > Hindus have accepted them and Secularism was defined to allow them > to live with love. But they never came out of their religious > boundaries - they yet demands Hindus to convert. > > Muslims have discarded Vande Matram (Isn't it Anti-National). > Muslims do not protest against Terrorism (Isn't it Anti-National). > > Same people constitutes the nation, who constitutes the Religion. > For a Hindu, nation is everything - the biggest of all 'Mata'. Have > a Muslim ever said that India is bigger to them then Islam? > > This where these two entities are correlated. The generalization > lies only with Hindus today - this is a ground fact. What is shown > superfitially, I do not want to comment on that further. > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Kiran Jonnalagadda > To: chanchal malviya > Cc: reader-list list > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 11:58:24 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at > Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > Dear Chanchal, > > I appreciate your concerns, but this is not a discussion I'm > interested in having. My only interest is in some clarity on Pawan's > generalisation between religion and anti-nationalism. > > Thank you. > > > -- > Kiran Jonnalagadda > http://jace.seacrow.com/ > > > > On 18-Jan-08, at 11:33 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > 1. Who are providing Arms to Naxals? > > 2. How many nations are they terrorizing? > > 3. What religious motivation guides them to do so? > > 4. Which religious book of Hindu has asked them to do so? > > > > 1. Which law of Islam or any Islamic country have punished any of > > these terrorists? > > 2. How many Mullahs have declared Fatwa agains even one terrorist? > > 3. How many Muslim road show have taken place again hundreds of > > Terrorist attacks? > > > > Even the Criminalized section of Hindus are not fighting in the name > > of religion... They do so because they are criminals and there are > > clear law to deal with them (not religion)... > > > > There is a difference... better to be understood... > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Kiran Jonnalagadda > > To: Pawan Durani > > Cc: reader-list list > > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 10:58:06 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at > > Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > On 18-Jan-08, at 10:33 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > I do not diagree that representatives of states sometimes do > misuse > > > their > > > authority . However the difference is that when a hindu is > > violated he > > > doesnt turn anti national. > > > > Pawan, > > > > Are you claiming that the supporters of the naxalite movement, LTTE > > and others who oppose the national apparatus are not Hindu? > > > > If you're not, could you be more specific? > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > > Search. > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 12:14:34 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 12:14:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 In-Reply-To: <96c0bb200801172145g5bd99f3fof5e61ed97d65c30a@mail.gmail.com> References: <908694.82450.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70801172103gff1c2cej297e0131e0115d27@mail.gmail.com> <96c0bb200801172145g5bd99f3fof5e61ed97d65c30a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801172244l50c681c2ia98bcfad68bd15eb@mail.gmail.com> Dear Faizullah , If you have failed to understand the word nationalism , that i quite understandable . Regards Pawan On 1/18/08, faiz ullah wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > I've not been able to understand the idea of nationalism to this day, and > I sincerely believe that its meaning (if there is one) will elude me for the > rest of my life. Likewise, it beats me when i try to understand what > 'turning' into an anti national means. Whom does a nationalist love (its > people, land, offices, poor?) and whom does an anti-national go ahead and > hurt (its people, land, offices, poor?). > > Just in case you're not up to writing a response, please do take out some > time to answer the following multiple choice question... > > Deriving from the statement : "When a hindu is violated he doesn't turn > anti national" please choose the correct or approximate analogy > > a. When a muslim/christian/sikh/parsi is violated he always turns anti > national > b. When a muslim/christian/sikh/parsi is violated he might turns anti > national > c. When a muslim/christian/sikh/parsi is violated he should turns anti > national > > thanks > > > > On Jan 18, 2008 10:33 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Zainab , > > > > I do not diagree that representatives of states sometimes do misuse > > their > > authority . However the difference is that when a hindu is violated he > > doesnt turn anti national. > > > > Regards > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On 1/18/08, Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > > > > My dear Chanchal, > > > > > > Before you unsubscribe from the list, let us have a good argument. I > > have > > > an > > > appetite for one and it's strange that my appetite emerges when you > > are > > > vocal on an issue. Anyhow, let's get down to the "facts". > > > > > > Firstly, until you do not tell me where you got the information from, > > I > > > have > > > no way to find out whether this is "correct" or "not". > > > > > > Secondly, I have been to Kashmir too and have been eve teased on the > > roads > > > by "Hindu" soldiers if you please. (I thought patriotic souls like you > > > > > don't > > > make distinctions on religious grounds when it comes to the > > army??!?!?!) > > > > > > Thirdly, in any conflict situation where the army is brought into the > > > picture, there are likely to be violences committed against women, > > whether > > > the women are Hindu or Muslim. If you have been to Kashmir, you don't > > need > > > to be reminded of what happened to the girls in the Kunan Poshpora > > > incident? > > > (unless of course you choose not to see this aspect of "facts" because > > it > > > does not suit your position!?!) If you have ever heard of violence in > > > Punjab, you don't need to be told of how women, irrespective of > > whether > > > they > > > are "Hindu" or "Muslim" or "Punjabi" (in case you think "Hindu" don't > > > apply > > > to "Punjabi" women), have been raped/coerced into sleeping with the > > > policemen. > > > > > > Fourthly, on the second evening of our time in Srinagar, the boys and > > > girls > > > who had come with me, were sitting in the houseboat and discussing > > > "India", > > > "Kashmir" "Hindu-Muslim conflicts in India", etc. with Kashmiri boys. > > The > > > Kashmiri boys referred to the violences against Muslims in "India" and > > the > > > "Indian" girls and boys (I am going to be killed for calling one of > > them > > > "Indian" because he is against state violence in Telangana) spoke of > > the > > > exodus of the Pandits. At one point in the discussion, someone raised > > the > > > point stating that there are enough "facts" that can be gotten to > > support > > > "our points of view", and none of these would be wrong. The point is > > > whether > > > we are willing to budge from our *positions* and see other > > perspectives. > > > > > > You can continue to support the army and get evidences about Muslim > > men in > > > the army committing violence against Hindu women and you can work the > > > flawed > > > logics of your flawed mathematics posed with history the way you like > > to > > > see > > > it. And you can even continue to say that you don't hate Muslims but > > are > > > wanting them to raise their voices against these happenings. But why > > don't > > > you have the "guts" to get down from your position and see that > > violence > > > is > > > being committed against women in almost all conflict areas whether it > > is > > > Punjab or North East or Kashmir or Palestine or Nicaragua or Iraq. And > > > here > > > it is not a question of Hindu women versus Muslim women versus > > Christian > > > women versus alien women. It is a matter of women violated by the > > state > > > which manifests itself in the form of the army. I hope that as a > > woman, > > > you > > > can be sensitive to this rather than brush this aside and get into > > your > > > baseless (until you quote sources and evidence) ranting about "Hindu" > > and > > > "Muslim"! > > > > > > Apologies if I am sounding angry, but sometimes I just cannot make out > > > what > > > you are trying to communicate and then what you say ends up making me > > > wonder > > > as to where your sensitivities, logics and brain lie. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Zainab > > > > > > On Jan 17, 2008 10:37 PM, chanchal malviya < > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > It would be great, if I am unsubscribed from this list.. > > > > I do not want to waste my time with people who cannot see beyond the > > > > > > screen... > > > > > > > > Thank you all... > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: Kulpreet Singh > > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:32:42 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at > > > > > Delhi > > > > - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > > > > > On Thursday 17 January 2008 22:27:53 Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > > > > > > Way to go Zainab! > > > > > > > > -kp > > > > > > > > > Dear Chanchal, > > > > > > > > > > Can you please quote the sources of your information? Otherwise we > > can > > > > all > > > > > cook up facts ad nauseum, to suit our points of view. > > > > > > > > > > Thanking you in advance, > > > > > > > > > > Yours truly, > > > > > > > > > > Zainab > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 17, 2008 9:51 PM, chanchal malviya < > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > The news is correct.. But there is more depth to such news.. > > > > > > Like the one I am quoting here.. > > > > > > > > > > > > In Kashmir some Army officials have been court martialed.. you > > all > > > > know > > > > > > this.. > > > > > > But the real stories has many faces.. > > > > > > one of them is: > > > > > > > > > > > > Muslim senior officers had forced junior Hindu officers to bring > > > Hindu > > > > > > girls for enjoyment... > > > > > > And somehow these juniors ran away and didn't do it.. and they > > were > > > > court > > > > > > martialed.. > > > > > > > > > > > > So those who defame Indian Army in Kashmir and other places, > > must > > > also > > > > > > try to know the name of officers who had done the crime and just > > not > > > > > > defame the whole Army.. > > > > > > For example, we can take the case of who posted this mail... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > > > From: OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > To: peaceworksdefenders at googlegroups.com ; > > > > > > sexualityinstitute2002 at yahoogroups.co.in; sarai list < > > > > > > reader-list at sarai.net >; ILS Across Borders < > > > > > > ILS-Across-Borders at googlegroups.com> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 9:39:40 PM > > > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at > > > Delhi > > > > - > > > > > > Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and Armed Forces > > Special > > > > > > Powers Act * > > > > > > > > > > > > *On the Eve of Republic Day * > > > > > > > > > > > > *25th January 2008 * > > > > > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On July 15 2004, for the first time in its history, the Indian > > > > > > "democracy" witnessed an unusual mode of protest against its > > > > government. > > > > > > About a dozen women came out on the street and disrobed > > themselves, > > > > > > protesting against the > > > > > > AFSPA and rape/murder of Thangjam Manorama, in front of an > > occupied > > > > > > historic > > > > > > place, the Kangla Fort in Manipur, (where the 17 th Assam Rifles > > > > > > Battalion is stationed). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The message of the protest was "INDIAN ARMY RAPE US". This novel > > > > > > agitation sparked the awakening of many citizens inside the > > country > > > as > > > > > > well as people > > > > > > in other parts of world, on the plight, sufferings and > > atrocities on > > > > > > Manipur > > > > > > people under the military boots. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *These brave and noble women from Manipur are coming to Delhi to > > > stir > > > > up > > > > > > the > > > > > > claustrophobic Government of India, on the eve of Republic Day > > and > > > > going > > > > > > to > > > > > > continue for a month time. The protest is being organized > > against > > > the > > > > > > Central Government's arrogant behavior, blatant propaganda and > > > > > > insensitivity > > > > > > towards the plight of people of Manipur * > > > > > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > > > > > The Indian Government has actively encouraged violence committed > > by > > > > the > > > > > > security forces under the draconian law -- Armed Forces Special > > > Powers > > > > > > Act, > > > > > > 1958 (AFSPA, 1958), which legitimizes any army personnel to > > shoot, > > > > kill > > > > > > and > > > > > > destroy a person or a property on mere "suspicion". This Act has > > > also > > > > > > promoted militarization in the entire North East, where > > possibility > > > > for > > > > > > any > > > > > > genuine legal proceedings to take place for justice or > > > accountability > > > > has > > > > > > become an impossibility and use of extra-judicial killings by > > > > > > state-promoted > > > > > > renegade groups like the SULFA in Assam and Ikhwaanis in Kashmir > > > with > > > > > > complete impunity has become endemic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The country is proud to claim itself as the world's largest > > > democracy, > > > > > > but how it is defining it, is a real question and a mockery, > > when > > > > there > > > > > > is martial law functioning (AFSPA 1958) in North East and J&K > > > regions > > > > for > > > > > > nearly last fifty years. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friends, this kleptocratic government is a clear and present > > danger > > > to > > > > > > every > > > > > > citizen of this country. We need to protest fiercely until the > > > system > > > > is > > > > > > put > > > > > > in place, in order to ensure the security of common citizens. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *We are inviting every citizens of this nation to participate in > > the > > > > > > campaign to strengthen our long overdue peaceful struggle as > > many > > > days > > > > as > > > > > > you would be able to. This is the least we can do to protest > > against > > > > this > > > > > > injustice system which saddens our hearts yet the government > > ignores > > > > to > > > > > > listen our plight. We are confident that truth will emerge > > > victorious > > > > > > one day through your esteem support. * > > > > > > > > > > > > * Looking forward for your kind presence. * > > > > > > > > > > > > *Please come and join on the* > > > > > > > > > > > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity, and the Armed Forces > > > > > > Special > > > > > > Powers Act. * > > > > > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > > > > > *Date: 25th January 2008* > > > > > > > > > > > > *Place: Jantar Mantar * > > > > > > > > > > > > *Time: 1:00 pm* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Recommendation for the repeal of AFSPA 1958 from government > > > committees > > > > > > and international organizations: > > > > > > > > > > > > · 1991, UN Human Rights Committee > > > > > > > > > > > > · 2005, Justice Jeevan Reddy Committee > > > > > > > > > > > > · 2006, India UN CEDAW Report > > > > > > > > > > > > · 2007, UN CERD > > > > > > > > > > > > · 2007, Administrative Reform Committee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Campaign Coordinator > > > > > > > > > > > > Onil > > > > > > > > > > > > Reachout > > > > > > > > > > > > +91-9818781767 > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: onilrights at gmail.com , reachout2006 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sundara Babu Nagappan > > > > > > > > > > > > Independent Researcher > > > > > > > > > > > > +91-9311744919 > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: babuubab at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sapamcha Kangleipal > > > > > > > > > > > > NE Youth Coordinator > > > > > > > > > > > > +91-9862096539 > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: kangleipal at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vani Subramanian > > > > > > > > > > > > Saheli > > > > > > > > > > > > +91-9891128911 > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: saheliwomen at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kavita Joshi > > > > > > > > > > > > Impulse > > > > > > > > > > > > +91-9868888642 > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: kj.impulse at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tanya Mathan > > > > > > > > > > > > Coordinator, Voluntary Agency Placement Programme (VAPP), > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady Shri Ram College > > > > > > > > > > > > +91-9891703465 > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: vapp.lsr at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *(Esteemed supporters please endorsed your organization name and > > > bring > > > > > > your > > > > > > organization's name banner on the day of protest) * > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > > > > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > > > > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > > > > > > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > > > > > Room 016 B > > > > > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > > > > > > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > > > > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > > > > > > > > > 416.876.7926 > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > >___________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > > > > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > > > > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe > > > > > in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > faiz From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 12:17:12 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 12:17:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 In-Reply-To: <9C4C80D0-7B17-4F1B-BED1-153849FF66D1@pobox.com> References: <764558.96232.qm@web90411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <9C4C80D0-7B17-4F1B-BED1-153849FF66D1@pobox.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801172247q3489b45cuc800d30145169fbb@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kiran , My mail was specifically in response of Zainab's mail . Here Zainab was discussing state opression and Kashmir . I dont think i need to elaborate more. Thanks for your understanding. Pawan On 1/18/08, Kiran Jonnalagadda wrote: > > Dear Chanchal, > > I'm afraid you fail to convince me, and further, that I have no > interest in this discussion and that therefore your energies are > better expended with someone else. I am only interested in a > clarification from Pawan. > > > -- > Kiran Jonnalagadda > http://jace.seacrow.com/ > > > > On 18-Jan-08, at 12:07 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > Dear Kiran, > > > > I do not think I am away from the topic of generalization between > > Religion and Anti-Nationalism.... > > Please consider my following points: > > > > 1. What is nationalism? Is it not about the nation - who worships > > the nation as Mother? > > 2. What is Religion? Is it not about the texts that demands to be in > > boundaries? Are Hindus actually a religious group? Why did Supreme > > court declare that Hinduism is a way of life and not a religion? > > > > What I want to bring into picture is, It is Hinduism alone that > > teaches Nationalism. Islam and Christianism are invaded religions. > > Hindus have accepted them and Secularism was defined to allow them > > to live with love. But they never came out of their religious > > boundaries - they yet demands Hindus to convert. > > > > Muslims have discarded Vande Matram (Isn't it Anti-National). > > Muslims do not protest against Terrorism (Isn't it Anti-National). > > > > Same people constitutes the nation, who constitutes the Religion. > > For a Hindu, nation is everything - the biggest of all 'Mata'. Have > > a Muslim ever said that India is bigger to them then Islam? > > > > This where these two entities are correlated. The generalization > > lies only with Hindus today - this is a ground fact. What is shown > > superfitially, I do not want to comment on that further. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Kiran Jonnalagadda > > To: chanchal malviya > > Cc: reader-list list > > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 11:58:24 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at > > Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > Dear Chanchal, > > > > I appreciate your concerns, but this is not a discussion I'm > > interested in having. My only interest is in some clarity on Pawan's > > generalisation between religion and anti-nationalism. > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > -- > > Kiran Jonnalagadda > > http://jace.seacrow.com/ > > > > > > > > On 18-Jan-08, at 11:33 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > > > 1. Who are providing Arms to Naxals? > > > 2. How many nations are they terrorizing? > > > 3. What religious motivation guides them to do so? > > > 4. Which religious book of Hindu has asked them to do so? > > > > > > 1. Which law of Islam or any Islamic country have punished any of > > > these terrorists? > > > 2. How many Mullahs have declared Fatwa agains even one terrorist? > > > 3. How many Muslim road show have taken place again hundreds of > > > Terrorist attacks? > > > > > > Even the Criminalized section of Hindus are not fighting in the name > > > of religion... They do so because they are criminals and there are > > > clear law to deal with them (not religion)... > > > > > > There is a difference... better to be understood... > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Kiran Jonnalagadda > > > To: Pawan Durani > > > Cc: reader-list list > > > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 10:58:06 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at > > > Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > > > On 18-Jan-08, at 10:33 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > I do not diagree that representatives of states sometimes do > > misuse > > > > their > > > > authority . However the difference is that when a hindu is > > > violated he > > > > doesnt turn anti national. > > > > > > Pawan, > > > > > > Are you claiming that the supporters of the naxalite movement, LTTE > > > and others who oppose the national apparatus are not Hindu? > > > > > > If you're not, could you be more specific? > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > > > Search. > > > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From faiz.outsider at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 12:22:27 2008 From: faiz.outsider at gmail.com (faiz ullah) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 12:22:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70801172244l50c681c2ia98bcfad68bd15eb@mail.gmail.com> References: <908694.82450.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70801172103gff1c2cej297e0131e0115d27@mail.gmail.com> <96c0bb200801172145g5bd99f3fof5e61ed97d65c30a@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70801172244l50c681c2ia98bcfad68bd15eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <96c0bb200801172252i57ab92dfp7adde0d91fae394e@mail.gmail.com> Thanks Pawan, It's maybe better this way...that i don't understand it. if I did, I'd have lost the capacity to love. :) On Jan 18, 2008 12:14 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Faizullah , > > If you have failed to understand the word nationalism , that i quite > understandable . > > Regards > > Pawan > > > On 1/18/08, faiz ullah wrote: > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > I've not been able to understand the idea of nationalism to this day, > > and I sincerely believe that its meaning (if there is one) will elude me for > > the rest of my life. Likewise, it beats me when i try to understand what > > 'turning' into an anti national means. Whom does a nationalist love (its > > people, land, offices, poor?) and whom does an anti-national go ahead and > > hurt (its people, land, offices, poor?). > > > > Just in case you're not up to writing a response, please do take out > > some time to answer the following multiple choice question... > > > > Deriving from the statement : "When a hindu is violated he doesn't turn > > anti national" please choose the correct or approximate analogy > > > > a. When a muslim/christian/sikh/parsi is violated he always turns anti > > national > > b. When a muslim/christian/sikh/parsi is violated he might turns anti > > national > > c. When a muslim/christian/sikh/parsi is violated he should turns anti > > national > > > > thanks > > > > > > > > On Jan 18, 2008 10:33 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > Zainab , > > > > > > I do not diagree that representatives of states sometimes do misuse > > > their > > > authority . However the difference is that when a hindu is violated he > > > > > > doesnt turn anti national. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > On 1/18/08, Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > > > > > > My dear Chanchal, > > > > > > > > Before you unsubscribe from the list, let us have a good argument. I > > > have > > > > an > > > > appetite for one and it's strange that my appetite emerges when you > > > are > > > > vocal on an issue. Anyhow, let's get down to the "facts". > > > > > > > > Firstly, until you do not tell me where you got the information > > > from, I > > > > have > > > > no way to find out whether this is "correct" or "not". > > > > > > > > Secondly, I have been to Kashmir too and have been eve teased on the > > > roads > > > > by "Hindu" soldiers if you please. (I thought patriotic souls like > > > you > > > > don't > > > > make distinctions on religious grounds when it comes to the > > > army??!?!?!) > > > > > > > > Thirdly, in any conflict situation where the army is brought into > > > the > > > > picture, there are likely to be violences committed against women, > > > whether > > > > the women are Hindu or Muslim. If you have been to Kashmir, you > > > don't need > > > > to be reminded of what happened to the girls in the Kunan Poshpora > > > > incident? > > > > (unless of course you choose not to see this aspect of "facts" > > > because it > > > > does not suit your position!?!) If you have ever heard of violence > > > in > > > > Punjab, you don't need to be told of how women, irrespective of > > > whether > > > > they > > > > are "Hindu" or "Muslim" or "Punjabi" (in case you think "Hindu" > > > don't > > > > apply > > > > to "Punjabi" women), have been raped/coerced into sleeping with the > > > > policemen. > > > > > > > > Fourthly, on the second evening of our time in Srinagar, the boys > > > and > > > > girls > > > > who had come with me, were sitting in the houseboat and discussing > > > > "India", > > > > "Kashmir" "Hindu-Muslim conflicts in India", etc. with Kashmiri > > > boys. The > > > > Kashmiri boys referred to the violences against Muslims in "India" > > > and the > > > > "Indian" girls and boys (I am going to be killed for calling one of > > > them > > > > "Indian" because he is against state violence in Telangana) spoke of > > > the > > > > exodus of the Pandits. At one point in the discussion, someone > > > raised the > > > > point stating that there are enough "facts" that can be gotten to > > > support > > > > "our points of view", and none of these would be wrong. The point is > > > > whether > > > > we are willing to budge from our *positions* and see other > > > perspectives. > > > > > > > > You can continue to support the army and get evidences about Muslim > > > men in > > > > the army committing violence against Hindu women and you can work > > > the > > > > flawed > > > > logics of your flawed mathematics posed with history the way you > > > like to > > > > see > > > > it. And you can even continue to say that you don't hate Muslims but > > > are > > > > wanting them to raise their voices against these happenings. But why > > > don't > > > > you have the "guts" to get down from your position and see that > > > violence > > > > is > > > > being committed against women in almost all conflict areas whether > > > it is > > > > Punjab or North East or Kashmir or Palestine or Nicaragua or Iraq. > > > And > > > > here > > > > it is not a question of Hindu women versus Muslim women versus > > > Christian > > > > women versus alien women. It is a matter of women violated by the > > > state > > > > which manifests itself in the form of the army. I hope that as a > > > woman, > > > > you > > > > can be sensitive to this rather than brush this aside and get into > > > your > > > > baseless (until you quote sources and evidence) ranting about > > > "Hindu" and > > > > "Muslim"! > > > > > > > > Apologies if I am sounding angry, but sometimes I just cannot make > > > out > > > > what > > > > you are trying to communicate and then what you say ends up making > > > me > > > > wonder > > > > as to where your sensitivities, logics and brain lie. > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > Zainab > > > > > > > > On Jan 17, 2008 10:37 PM, chanchal malviya < > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > It would be great, if I am unsubscribed from this list.. > > > > > I do not want to waste my time with people who cannot see beyond > > > the > > > > > screen... > > > > > > > > > > Thank you all... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > > From: Kulpreet Singh < zapfmann at gmail.com > > > > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:32:42 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. > > > at > > > > Delhi > > > > > - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday 17 January 2008 22:27:53 Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Way to go Zainab! > > > > > > > > > > -kp > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Chanchal, > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you please quote the sources of your information? Otherwise > > > we can > > > > > all > > > > > > cook up facts ad nauseum, to suit our points of view. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanking you in advance, > > > > > > > > > > > > Yours truly, > > > > > > > > > > > > Zainab > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 17, 2008 9:51 PM, chanchal malviya < > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > The news is correct.. But there is more depth to such news.. > > > > > > > Like the one I am quoting here.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In Kashmir some Army officials have been court martialed.. you > > > all > > > > > know > > > > > > > this.. > > > > > > > But the real stories has many faces.. > > > > > > > one of them is: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Muslim senior officers had forced junior Hindu officers to > > > bring > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > girls for enjoyment... > > > > > > > And somehow these juniors ran away and didn't do it.. and they > > > were > > > > > court > > > > > > > martialed.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So those who defame Indian Army in Kashmir and other places, > > > must > > > > also > > > > > > > try to know the name of officers who had done the crime and > > > just not > > > > > > > defame the whole Army.. > > > > > > > For example, we can take the case of who posted this mail... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > > > > From: OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > > To: peaceworksdefenders at googlegroups.com ; > > > > > > > sexualityinstitute2002 at yahoogroups.co.in ; sarai list < > > > > > > > reader-list at sarai.net >; ILS Across Borders < > > > > > > > ILS-Across-Borders at googlegroups.com> > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 9:39:40 PM > > > > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. > > > at > > > > Delhi > > > > > - > > > > > > > Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and Armed Forces > > > Special > > > > > > > Powers Act * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *On the Eve of Republic Day * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *25th January 2008 * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On July 15 2004, for the first time in its history, the Indian > > > > > > > > > > "democracy" witnessed an unusual mode of protest against its > > > > > government. > > > > > > > About a dozen women came out on the street and disrobed > > > themselves, > > > > > > > protesting against the > > > > > > > AFSPA and rape/murder of Thangjam Manorama, in front of an > > > occupied > > > > > > > historic > > > > > > > place, the Kangla Fort in Manipur, (where the 17 th Assam > > > Rifles > > > > > > > Battalion is stationed). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The message of the protest was "INDIAN ARMY RAPE US". This > > > novel > > > > > > > agitation sparked the awakening of many citizens inside the > > > country > > > > as > > > > > > > well as people > > > > > > > in other parts of world, on the plight, sufferings and > > > atrocities on > > > > > > > Manipur > > > > > > > people under the military boots. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *These brave and noble women from Manipur are coming to Delhi > > > to > > > > stir > > > > > up > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > claustrophobic Government of India, on the eve of Republic Day > > > and > > > > > going > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > continue for a month time. The protest is being organized > > > against > > > > the > > > > > > > Central Government's arrogant behavior, blatant propaganda and > > > > > > > > > > insensitivity > > > > > > > towards the plight of people of Manipur * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Indian Government has actively encouraged violence > > > committed by > > > > > the > > > > > > > security forces under the draconian law -- Armed Forces > > > Special > > > > Powers > > > > > > > Act, > > > > > > > 1958 (AFSPA, 1958), which legitimizes any army personnel to > > > shoot, > > > > > kill > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > destroy a person or a property on mere "suspicion". This Act > > > has > > > > also > > > > > > > promoted militarization in the entire North East, where > > > possibility > > > > > for > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > genuine legal proceedings to take place for justice or > > > > accountability > > > > > has > > > > > > > become an impossibility and use of extra-judicial killings by > > > > > > > state-promoted > > > > > > > renegade groups like the SULFA in Assam and Ikhwaanis in > > > Kashmir > > > > with > > > > > > > complete impunity has become endemic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The country is proud to claim itself as the world's largest > > > > democracy, > > > > > > > but how it is defining it, is a real question and a mockery, > > > when > > > > > there > > > > > > > is martial law functioning (AFSPA 1958) in North East and J&K > > > > regions > > > > > for > > > > > > > nearly last fifty years. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friends, this kleptocratic government is a clear and present > > > danger > > > > to > > > > > > > every > > > > > > > citizen of this country. We need to protest fiercely until the > > > > > > > system > > > > > is > > > > > > > put > > > > > > > in place, in order to ensure the security of common citizens. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *We are inviting every citizens of this nation to participate > > > in the > > > > > > > campaign to strengthen our long overdue peaceful struggle as > > > many > > > > days > > > > > as > > > > > > > you would be able to. This is the least we can do to protest > > > against > > > > > this > > > > > > > injustice system which saddens our hearts yet the government > > > ignores > > > > > to > > > > > > > listen our plight. We are confident that truth will emerge > > > > victorious > > > > > > > one day through your esteem support. * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Looking forward for your kind presence. * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Please come and join on the* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity, and the Armed > > > Forces > > > > > Special > > > > > > > Powers Act. * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Date: 25th January 2008* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Place: Jantar Mantar * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Time: 1:00 pm* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Recommendation for the repeal of AFSPA 1958 from government > > > > committees > > > > > > > and international organizations: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > · 1991, UN Human Rights Committee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > · 2005, Justice Jeevan Reddy Committee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > · 2006, India UN CEDAW Report > > > > > > > > > > > > > > · 2007, UN CERD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > · 2007, Administrative Reform Committee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Campaign Coordinator > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Onil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reachout > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +91-9818781767 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: onilrights at gmail.com , reachout2006 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sundara Babu Nagappan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Independent Researcher > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +91-9311744919 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: babuubab at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sapamcha Kangleipal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NE Youth Coordinator > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +91-9862096539 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: kangleipal at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vani Subramanian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Saheli > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +91-9891128911 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: saheliwomen at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kavita Joshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Impulse > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +91-9868888642 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: kj.impulse at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tanya Mathan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Coordinator, Voluntary Agency Placement Programme (VAPP), > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady Shri Ram College > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +91-9891703465 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: vapp.lsr at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *(Esteemed supporters please endorsed your organization name > > > and > > > > bring > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > organization's name banner on the day of protest) * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > > > > > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > > > > > > Room 016 B > > > > > > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > > > > > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 416.876.7926 > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > >___________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > > > > > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > > > > > > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > subscribe > > > > > > in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List > > > archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > > > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > faiz > > > -- faiz From mitoo at sarai.net Wed Jan 16 13:12:12 2008 From: mitoo at sarai.net (Mitoo Das) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:12:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] The First City Theatre Readings- Off The Mantle # 3 Message-ID: <478DB554.60807@sarai.net> The First City Theatre Foundation presents the third in its now regular series of dramatic readings at The Attic. After Shakespeare and Mark Twain, we turn to two contemporary writers – David Hare and Joe Penhall – with extracts from two engaging, bold and coincidentally coloured plays. OFF THE MANTLE #3 The first City Theatre Readings presents David Hare's THE BLUE ROOM & Joe Penhall's BLUE/ORANGE Date 23rd January Time: 7PM Venue: The Attic, 36 Regal Building (near The Shop) Connaught Place Contact Neel Chaudhuri Kuhu Tanvir 011-46070317 theatre at firstcitydelhi.com ** _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From jace at pobox.com Fri Jan 18 12:40:23 2008 From: jace at pobox.com (Kiran Jonnalagadda) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 12:40:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Bangalore Free Map workshop registrations open Message-ID: <81F96694-6E2E-45B6-9B58-DE18597DD60D@pobox.com> Dear All, Registrations for the Bangalore edition of the Free Map 2008 workshop are now open. The workshop will be held on February 16-17 at the NS Raghavan Centre for Entrepreneurship Learning (NSRCEL), Indian Institute of Management, Bangalore (IIMB). This is the same location as was used for Barcamp Bangalore 3, 4 and 5 during 2007. Please register here: http://wiki.freemap.in/moin.cgi/FreeMapIndia2008Bangalore For more information on the workshop: http://wiki.freemap.in/moin.cgi/FreeMapIndia2008 Free Map India: A Series of Workshops in February 2008 India is changing faster than ever. A cliche but true. Yet tracking the growth of India's cities and the transformation of the countryside, through digital mapping, has not continued apace. Geo data is closely held and inaccessible, too expensive, and simply out of date. The situation is similar throughout the world. But it doesn't have to be. Over the past few years, there has been a revolution in cartography and GIS. Through open source software, the Web and the tools of neogeography, these formally specialized disciplines of mapping have been made accessible to anyone with knowledge about their local place. OpenStreetMap is mapping the entire world openly and collaboratively, and coverage is increasing exponentially. These tools are powerful, in some ways outpacing expensive proprietary and closed systems. The barrier of cost no longer exists. The only prerequisite is a will to know, explore and share. This February, Schuyler Erle and Mikel Maron will hold a series of multi-day workshops in several India universities. Researchers, students, and members of the community are invited to participate, learn, and take stewardship of their city. These will be very practical, hands-on days, covering the entire toolset of OpenStreetMap and empowering participants to lead the growth of free and open mapping in India. We will map India! Topics to be Covered * General introduction to mapping, cartography and GIS * Neogeography * Open Source Geospatial Software * OpenStreetMap overview and instruction * Surveying with GPS and data collection * Photomapping * Contributing to and editing OpenStreetMap * Rendering Maps * Working with geodata and programming OSM and OSGeo tools Locations The final locations are still under discussion. But they are likely to be Mumbai, Bangalore, Kolkatta, Trivandrum, and Hyderabad. Mumbai will have a slightly different emphasis, due to the production of the Mumbai Free Map in 2005. This digital map covers Mumbai in fantastic detail, but not in a form usable for OpenStreetMap. We will be working on the techniques to transform the Mumbai Free Map data into OpenStreetMap Mumbai. Software Development This time in India will also be an opportunity to advance the capabilities of the software platforms. Particularly we will focus on low bandwidth and offline map production, and periodic synchronization with the master OSM database. This will aid the spread ofOpenStreetMap throughout the developing world. Workshop Leads Schuyler Erle is a free software developer and activist. He is responsible for NoCatAuth, an early open source wireless captive portal, and geocoder.us, an open source U.S. address geocoder. Erle wrote O'Reilly's Mapping Hacks with Jo Walsh and Rich Gibson, and Google Map Hacks, also with Rich. Previously, he worked with MetaCarta in Cambridge, MA, USA, developing nitfy geographic projects like OpenLayers, an open source web mapping framework written in pure JavaScript, and Gutenkarte, a service for exploring the geographic dimension of classic works of literature. Erle is proud to be a founding member of the OSGeo Foundation. Mikel Maron is a freelance web developer, specializing in Open Geospatial and Wiki tech. He's been active in the standardization of GeoRSS and in the OpenStreetMap collaborative mapping project, and co- founder of the geodata aggregator, Mapufacture. He's developed two of the first Wikis in use at the UN. Previously, Mikel worked as senior developer of My Yahoo! and researched evolutionary models of ecosystems for an MSc at the University of Sussex. From mail at shivamvij.com Fri Jan 18 12:42:47 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 12:42:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 In-Reply-To: <908694.82450.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <908694.82450.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30801172312y1db36284u42ae7c3bd0f3a158@mail.gmail.com> Dear Chanchal, As the list footer says, to unsubscribe you need to visit https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list :) On 1/17/08, chanchal malviya wrote: > It would be great, if I am unsubscribed from this list.. > I do not want to waste my time with people who cannot see beyond the screen... > > Thank you all... > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Kulpreet Singh > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:32:42 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > On Thursday 17 January 2008 22:27:53 Zainab Bawa wrote: > > Way to go Zainab! > > -kp > > > Dear Chanchal, > > > > Can you please quote the sources of your information? Otherwise we can all > > cook up facts ad nauseum, to suit our points of view. > > > > Thanking you in advance, > > > > Yours truly, > > > > Zainab > > > > > > On Jan 17, 2008 9:51 PM, chanchal malviya > > > > wrote: > > > The news is correct.. But there is more depth to such news.. > > > Like the one I am quoting here.. > > > > > > In Kashmir some Army officials have been court martialed.. you all know > > > this.. > > > But the real stories has many faces.. > > > one of them is: > > > > > > Muslim senior officers had forced junior Hindu officers to bring Hindu > > > girls for enjoyment... > > > And somehow these juniors ran away and didn't do it.. and they were court > > > martialed.. > > > > > > So those who defame Indian Army in Kashmir and other places, must also > > > try to know the name of officers who had done the crime and just not > > > defame the whole Army.. > > > For example, we can take the case of who posted this mail... > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: OISHIK SIRCAR > > > To: peaceworksdefenders at googlegroups.com; > > > sexualityinstitute2002 at yahoogroups.co.in; sarai list < > > > reader-list at sarai.net>; ILS Across Borders < > > > ILS-Across-Borders at googlegroups.com> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 9:39:40 PM > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - > > > Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > > > ** > > > > > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and Armed Forces Special > > > Powers Act * > > > > > > *On the Eve of Republic Day * > > > > > > *25th January 2008 * > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > > > > > On July 15 2004, for the first time in its history, the Indian > > > "democracy" witnessed an unusual mode of protest against its government. > > > About a dozen women came out on the street and disrobed themselves, > > > protesting against the > > > AFSPA and rape/murder of Thangjam Manorama, in front of an occupied > > > historic > > > place, the Kangla Fort in Manipur, (where the 17 th Assam Rifles > > > Battalion is stationed). > > > > > > > > > > > > The message of the protest was "INDIAN ARMY RAPE US". This novel > > > agitation sparked the awakening of many citizens inside the country as > > > well as people > > > in other parts of world, on the plight, sufferings and atrocities on > > > Manipur > > > people under the military boots. > > > > > > > > > > > > *These brave and noble women from Manipur are coming to Delhi to stir up > > > the > > > claustrophobic Government of India, on the eve of Republic Day and going > > > to > > > continue for a month time. The protest is being organized against the > > > Central Government's arrogant behavior, blatant propaganda and > > > insensitivity > > > towards the plight of people of Manipur * > > > > > > * * > > > > > > The Indian Government has actively encouraged violence committed by the > > > security forces under the draconian law -- Armed Forces Special Powers > > > Act, > > > 1958 (AFSPA, 1958), which legitimizes any army personnel to shoot, kill > > > and > > > destroy a person or a property on mere "suspicion". This Act has also > > > promoted militarization in the entire North East, where possibility for > > > any > > > genuine legal proceedings to take place for justice or accountability has > > > become an impossibility and use of extra-judicial killings by > > > state-promoted > > > renegade groups like the SULFA in Assam and Ikhwaanis in Kashmir with > > > complete impunity has become endemic. > > > > > > > > > > > > The country is proud to claim itself as the world's largest democracy, > > > but how it is defining it, is a real question and a mockery, when there > > > is martial law functioning (AFSPA 1958) in North East and J&K regions for > > > nearly last fifty years. > > > > > > > > > > > > Friends, this kleptocratic government is a clear and present danger to > > > every > > > citizen of this country. We need to protest fiercely until the system is > > > put > > > in place, in order to ensure the security of common citizens. > > > > > > > > > > > > *We are inviting every citizens of this nation to participate in the > > > campaign to strengthen our long overdue peaceful struggle as many days as > > > you would be able to. This is the least we can do to protest against this > > > injustice system which saddens our hearts yet the government ignores to > > > listen our plight. We are confident that truth will emerge victorious > > > one day through your esteem support. * > > > > > > * Looking forward for your kind presence. * > > > > > > *Please come and join on the* > > > > > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity, and the Armed Forces Special > > > Powers Act. * > > > > > > * * > > > > > > *Date: 25th January 2008* > > > > > > *Place: Jantar Mantar * > > > > > > *Time: 1:00 pm* > > > > > > > > > > > > Recommendation for the repeal of AFSPA 1958 from government committees > > > and international organizations: > > > > > > · 1991, UN Human Rights Committee > > > > > > · 2005, Justice Jeevan Reddy Committee > > > > > > · 2006, India UN CEDAW Report > > > > > > · 2007, UN CERD > > > > > > · 2007, Administrative Reform Committee > > > > > > > > > > > > Campaign Coordinator > > > > > > Onil > > > > > > Reachout > > > > > > +91-9818781767 > > > > > > Email: onilrights at gmail.com , reachout2006 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Sundara Babu Nagappan > > > > > > Independent Researcher > > > > > > +91-9311744919 > > > > > > Email: babuubab at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sapamcha Kangleipal > > > > > > NE Youth Coordinator > > > > > > +91-9862096539 > > > > > > Email: kangleipal at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Vani Subramanian > > > > > > Saheli > > > > > > +91-9891128911 > > > > > > Email: saheliwomen at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Kavita Joshi > > > > > > Impulse > > > > > > +91-9868888642 > > > > > > Email: kj.impulse at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Tanya Mathan > > > > > > Coordinator, Voluntary Agency Placement Programme (VAPP), > > > > > > Lady Shri Ram College > > > > > > +91-9891703465 > > > > > > Email: vapp.lsr at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *(Esteemed supporters please endorsed your organization name and bring > > > your > > > organization's name banner on the day of protest) * > > > > > > ** > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > > Room 016 B > > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > > > 416.876.7926 > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > >___________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > > in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 12:56:05 2008 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 12:56:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70801172103gff1c2cej297e0131e0115d27@mail.gmail.com> References: <908694.82450.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70801172103gff1c2cej297e0131e0115d27@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Pawan, Please define/explain what you mean by Hindu and please define/explain what you mean by anti-national. You can also help explain/define what you mean by Muslim and national. Cheers, Zainab On Jan 18, 2008 10:33 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Zainab , > > I do not diagree that representatives of states sometimes do misuse their > authority . However the difference is that when a hindu is violated he > doesnt turn anti national. > > Regards > > Pawan > > > On 1/18/08, Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > My dear Chanchal, > > > > Before you unsubscribe from the list, let us have a good argument. I > > have an > > appetite for one and it's strange that my appetite emerges when you are > > vocal on an issue. Anyhow, let's get down to the "facts". > > > > Firstly, until you do not tell me where you got the information from, I > > have > > no way to find out whether this is "correct" or "not". > > > > Secondly, I have been to Kashmir too and have been eve teased on the > > roads > > by "Hindu" soldiers if you please. (I thought patriotic souls like you > > don't > > make distinctions on religious grounds when it comes to the army??!?!?!) > > > > > > Thirdly, in any conflict situation where the army is brought into the > > picture, there are likely to be violences committed against women, > > whether > > the women are Hindu or Muslim. If you have been to Kashmir, you don't > > need > > to be reminded of what happened to the girls in the Kunan Poshpora > > incident? > > (unless of course you choose not to see this aspect of "facts" because > > it > > does not suit your position!?!) If you have ever heard of violence in > > Punjab, you don't need to be told of how women, irrespective of whether > > they > > are "Hindu" or "Muslim" or "Punjabi" (in case you think "Hindu" don't > > apply > > to "Punjabi" women), have been raped/coerced into sleeping with the > > policemen. > > > > Fourthly, on the second evening of our time in Srinagar, the boys and > > girls > > who had come with me, were sitting in the houseboat and discussing > > "India", > > "Kashmir" "Hindu-Muslim conflicts in India", etc. with Kashmiri boys. > > The > > Kashmiri boys referred to the violences against Muslims in "India" and > > the > > "Indian" girls and boys (I am going to be killed for calling one of them > > "Indian" because he is against state violence in Telangana) spoke of the > > > > exodus of the Pandits. At one point in the discussion, someone raised > > the > > point stating that there are enough "facts" that can be gotten to > > support > > "our points of view", and none of these would be wrong. The point is > > whether > > we are willing to budge from our *positions* and see other perspectives. > > > > You can continue to support the army and get evidences about Muslim men > > in > > the army committing violence against Hindu women and you can work the > > flawed > > logics of your flawed mathematics posed with history the way you like to > > see > > it. And you can even continue to say that you don't hate Muslims but are > > wanting them to raise their voices against these happenings. But why > > don't > > you have the "guts" to get down from your position and see that violence > > is > > being committed against women in almost all conflict areas whether it is > > Punjab or North East or Kashmir or Palestine or Nicaragua or Iraq. And > > here > > it is not a question of Hindu women versus Muslim women versus Christian > > women versus alien women. It is a matter of women violated by the state > > which manifests itself in the form of the army. I hope that as a woman, > > you > > can be sensitive to this rather than brush this aside and get into your > > baseless (until you quote sources and evidence) ranting about "Hindu" > > and > > "Muslim"! > > > > Apologies if I am sounding angry, but sometimes I just cannot make out > > what > > you are trying to communicate and then what you say ends up making me > > wonder > > as to where your sensitivities, logics and brain lie. > > > > Best, > > > > Zainab > > > > On Jan 17, 2008 10:37 PM, chanchal malviya < chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > > wrote: > > > > > It would be great, if I am unsubscribed from this list.. > > > I do not want to waste my time with people who cannot see beyond the > > > screen... > > > > > > Thank you all... > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Kulpreet Singh > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:32:42 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at > > Delhi > > > - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > > > On Thursday 17 January 2008 22:27:53 Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > > > > Way to go Zainab! > > > > > > -kp > > > > > > > Dear Chanchal, > > > > > > > > Can you please quote the sources of your information? Otherwise we > > can > > > all > > > > cook up facts ad nauseum, to suit our points of view. > > > > > > > > Thanking you in advance, > > > > > > > > Yours truly, > > > > > > > > Zainab > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 17, 2008 9:51 PM, chanchal malviya > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > The news is correct.. But there is more depth to such news.. > > > > > Like the one I am quoting here.. > > > > > > > > > > In Kashmir some Army officials have been court martialed.. you all > > > > > know > > > > > this.. > > > > > But the real stories has many faces.. > > > > > one of them is: > > > > > > > > > > Muslim senior officers had forced junior Hindu officers to bring > > Hindu > > > > > girls for enjoyment... > > > > > And somehow these juniors ran away and didn't do it.. and they > > were > > > court > > > > > martialed.. > > > > > > > > > > So those who defame Indian Army in Kashmir and other places, must > > also > > > > > try to know the name of officers who had done the crime and just > > not > > > > > defame the whole Army.. > > > > > For example, we can take the case of who posted this mail... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > > From: OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > To: peaceworksdefenders at googlegroups.com; > > > > > sexualityinstitute2002 at yahoogroups.co.in; sarai list < > > > > > reader-list at sarai.net>; ILS Across Borders < > > > > > ILS-Across-Borders at googlegroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 9:39:40 PM > > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at > > Delhi > > > - > > > > > Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and Armed Forces > > Special > > > > > Powers Act * > > > > > > > > > > *On the Eve of Republic Day * > > > > > > > > > > *25th January 2008 * > > > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On July 15 2004, for the first time in its history, the Indian > > > > > "democracy" witnessed an unusual mode of protest against its > > > government. > > > > > About a dozen women came out on the street and disrobed > > themselves, > > > > > protesting against the > > > > > AFSPA and rape/murder of Thangjam Manorama, in front of an > > occupied > > > > > historic > > > > > place, the Kangla Fort in Manipur, (where the 17 th Assam Rifles > > > > > Battalion is stationed). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The message of the protest was "INDIAN ARMY RAPE US". This novel > > > > > agitation sparked the awakening of many citizens inside the > > country as > > > > > well as people > > > > > in other parts of world, on the plight, sufferings and atrocities > > on > > > > > Manipur > > > > > people under the military boots. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *These brave and noble women from Manipur are coming to Delhi to > > stir > > > up > > > > > the > > > > > claustrophobic Government of India, on the eve of Republic Day and > > > going > > > > > to > > > > > continue for a month time. The protest is being organized against > > the > > > > > Central Government's arrogant behavior, blatant propaganda and > > > > > insensitivity > > > > > towards the plight of people of Manipur * > > > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > > > The Indian Government has actively encouraged violence committed > > by > > > the > > > > > security forces under the draconian law -- Armed Forces Special > > Powers > > > > > Act, > > > > > 1958 (AFSPA, 1958), which legitimizes any army personnel to shoot, > > > kill > > > > > and > > > > > destroy a person or a property on mere "suspicion". This Act has > > also > > > > > promoted militarization in the entire North East, where > > possibility > > > for > > > > > any > > > > > genuine legal proceedings to take place for justice or > > accountability > > > has > > > > > become an impossibility and use of extra-judicial killings by > > > > > state-promoted > > > > > renegade groups like the SULFA in Assam and Ikhwaanis in Kashmir > > with > > > > > complete impunity has become endemic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The country is proud to claim itself as the world's largest > > democracy, > > > > > but how it is defining it, is a real question and a mockery, when > > > there > > > > > is martial law functioning (AFSPA 1958) in North East and J&K > > regions > > > for > > > > > nearly last fifty years. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friends, this kleptocratic government is a clear and present > > danger to > > > > > every > > > > > citizen of this country. We need to protest fiercely until the > > system > > > is > > > > > put > > > > > in place, in order to ensure the security of common citizens. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *We are inviting every citizens of this nation to participate in > > the > > > > > campaign to strengthen our long overdue peaceful struggle as many > > days > > > as > > > > > you would be able to. This is the least we can do to protest > > against > > > this > > > > > injustice system which saddens our hearts yet the government > > ignores > > > to > > > > > listen our plight. We are confident that truth will emerge > > victorious > > > > > one day through your esteem support. * > > > > > > > > > > * Looking forward for your kind presence. * > > > > > > > > > > *Please come and join on the* > > > > > > > > > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity, and the Armed Forces > > > Special > > > > > Powers Act. * > > > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > > > *Date: 25th January 2008* > > > > > > > > > > *Place: Jantar Mantar * > > > > > > > > > > *Time: 1:00 pm* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Recommendation for the repeal of AFSPA 1958 from government > > committees > > > > > and international organizations: > > > > > > > > > > · 1991, UN Human Rights Committee > > > > > > > > > > · 2005, Justice Jeevan Reddy Committee > > > > > > > > > > · 2006, India UN CEDAW Report > > > > > > > > > > · 2007, UN CERD > > > > > > > > > > · 2007, Administrative Reform Committee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Campaign Coordinator > > > > > > > > > > Onil > > > > > > > > > > Reachout > > > > > > > > > > +91-9818781767 > > > > > > > > > > Email: onilrights at gmail.com , reachout2006 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sundara Babu Nagappan > > > > > > > > > > Independent Researcher > > > > > > > > > > +91-9311744919 > > > > > > > > > > Email: babuubab at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sapamcha Kangleipal > > > > > > > > > > NE Youth Coordinator > > > > > > > > > > +91-9862096539 > > > > > > > > > > Email: kangleipal at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vani Subramanian > > > > > > > > > > Saheli > > > > > > > > > > +91-9891128911 > > > > > > > > > > Email: saheliwomen at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kavita Joshi > > > > > > > > > > Impulse > > > > > > > > > > +91-9868888642 > > > > > > > > > > Email: kj.impulse at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tanya Mathan > > > > > > > > > > Coordinator, Voluntary Agency Placement Programme (VAPP), > > > > > > > > > > Lady Shri Ram College > > > > > > > > > > +91-9891703465 > > > > > > > > > > Email: vapp.lsr at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *(Esteemed supporters please endorsed your organization name and > > bring > > > > > your > > > > > organization's name banner on the day of protest) * > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > > > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > > > > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > > > > Room 016 B > > > > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > > > > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > > > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > > > > > > > 416.876.7926 > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > > > >___________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > > > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe > > > > in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 13:05:37 2008 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:05:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 In-Reply-To: <130256.86594.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <130256.86594.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Chanchal, Please clarify what you mean when you say: * Secondly, I have been to Kashmir too and have been eve teased on the roads by "Hindu" soldiers if you please. (I thought patriotic souls like you don't make distinctions on religious grounds when it comes to the army??!?!?!) * I do not know you are a Hindu or a Muslim... If you can clarify this to me, but your name seems to be of a Muslims... And if so, this is expected.... I talked to a Muslim rickshaw wala at Bangalore and he tells that Muslims are facing huge problem in Kashmir by Army... What do they know and how do they know? Answer is known to all Muslims... It does not matter whether I am Hindu or Muslim. You can consider me to be of whatever identity. In my previous communications with you, I have very clearly specified that if I was in a "Muslim" family, that does not mean it is the primary identity that I wear on me. It happens to be one of the identities that I adorn. Are you implying that because I happen to be "Muslim", it is obvious that I am going to "complain" about being eve teased by "Hindu" soldiers? If yes, then I publicly take offense to your statement. Again I repeat, that "Muslim" by itself means many things and therefore you when you bracket everyone as "Muslim", I cannot understand what you mean. Throughout your email you have tried to seek refuge in some history and some books, but nowhere have you even sought to be reflexive. Courage and 'guts' don't lie in accepting false propaganda. They lie in being to reflect on ourselves and where our prejudices and biases are coming from. Angrily, Zainab On Jan 18, 2008 11:11 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: > Nice mail from you.. Let me answer each of them.. > > *Firstly, until you do not tell me where you got the information from, I > have no way to find out whether this is "correct" or "not". > * > I cannot tell you this, and if required I can take my words back... I > don't have any intention to convince others on this... I said it because I > want the news should also contain names of Army personals involved in such > incidences, which is never said by News channels.. hence they may be right > or I may be right... > > *Secondly, I have been to Kashmir too and have been eve teased on the > roads by "Hindu" soldiers if you please. (I thought patriotic souls like you > don't make distinctions on religious grounds when it comes to the > army??!?!?!) * > > I do not know you are a Hindu or a Muslim... If you can clarify this to > me, but your name seems to be of a Muslims... And if so, this is > expected.... I talked to a Muslim rickshaw wala at Bangalore and he tells > that Muslims are facing huge problem in Kashmir by Army... What do they know > and how do they know? Answer is known to all Muslims... > > *Thirdly, in any conflict situation where the army is brought into the > picture, there are likely to be violences committed against women, whether > the women are Hindu or Muslim. If you have been to Kashmir, you don't need > to be reminded of what happened to the girls in the Kunan Poshpora incident? > (unless of course you choose not to see this aspect of "facts" because it > does not suit your position!?!) If you have ever heard of violence in > Punjab, you don't need to be told of how women, irrespective of whether they > are "Hindu" or "Muslim" or "Punjabi" (in case you think "Hindu" don't apply > to "Punjabi" women), have been raped/coerced into sleeping with the > policemen. > * > Molestations is crime, purely written as per Acts and Laws in this > country... Is it same in Islamic culture? I do not want to bring out things > that are internal to Muslims, they have a separate law for their society and > anything happening in their society is not liable to thrown on Governance of > India... Imrana case is one among many that says the story... > > If you talk about Hindus, as per the religion, as per Vedas, God do not > exist where women are not there.. Women are treated as Laxmi in every > house.. There are various forms of Shakti that are worshipped (Durga puja as > an example)... So, Hindus know how to treat women as a cultural practice.. > The events of mistreating women, of course, takes place here also and > there are clear laws to deal with them.. Unlike Islam a women can raise her > voice with effect and without any man's support... > > *Fourthly, on the second evening of our time in Srinagar, the boys and > girls who had come with me, were sitting in the houseboat and discussing > "India", "Kashmir" "Hindu-Muslim conflicts in India", etc. with Kashmiri > boys. The Kashmiri boys referred to the violences against Muslims in "India" > and the "Indian" girls and boys (I am going to be killed for calling one of > them "Indian" because he is against state violence in Telangana) spoke of > the exodus of the Pandits. At one point in the discussion, someone raised > the point stating that there are enough "facts" that can be gotten to > support "our points of view", and none of these would be wrong. The point is > whether we are willing to budge from our positions and see other > perspectives.* > * * > I do not understand what is voilence in your words... Do you mean to say > that Hindus in India blasts bombs in Muslim areas.. Do you mean to say that > Hindus in India rape Muslim women... Please, do not say things that has no > meaning.. It is always the other way round.. and I need not present > evidences.. there are hundreds of them taking place.. As far as riots are > concerned.. they are nearly always initiated by Muslims and Hindus being in > majority somehow proves to be among the suppressors.. For example, Gujarat > riot was an initiation took by Muslims when they gathered in thousands with > weapons and arms to burn around 60 hindus alive in train... Do not tell me > that Hindus are also doing the same in Islamic countries... I know that they > all are paying Jazya and at times they are attacked, their temples are all > broken... > > *You can continue to support the army and get evidences about Muslim men > in the army committing violence against Hindu women and you can work the > flawed logics of your flawed mathematics posed with history the way you like > to see it. And you can even continue to say that you don't hate Muslims but > are wanting them to raise their voices against these happenings. But why > don't you have the "guts" to get down from your position and see that > violence is being committed against women in almost all conflict areas > whether it is Punjab or North East or Kashmir or Palestine or Nicaragua or > Iraq. And here it is not a question of Hindu women versus Muslim women > versus Christian women versus alien women. It is a matter of women violated > by the state which manifests itself in the form of the army. I hope that as > a woman, you can be sensitive to this rather than brush this aside and get > into your baseless (until you quote sources and evidence) ranting about > "Hindu" and "Muslim"! > * > Women has the right place in only one community of the world.. At least in > terms of religious texts, it is Hinduism alone that teaches to worship > women... Women are physically weak and due to this, they have faced problems > largely in all societies, to which I agree totally.. Hindus have > categorized it a criminalized act... Dear friend, Hindus have learnt to > worship Cow as a mother, river as a mother, nation as a mother... Swami > Vivekanand said - In west, except for mother all are women are life wife, > but among Hindus every other women than wife is a mother... This is the > basic culture of Hindus... The events that you talk about (mistreatment of > women) takes place with girls and women who have discarded their religion.. > they want freedom like western girl and they are facing problems alike > western girls... I am very clear on a simple point - if a girl or woman > knows to have respect and honor for herself, no Hindus will ever try to even > look at her even in disguise - this is the true meaning of Satitva (not the > Sati pratha that is known to the world).... > > > *Apologies if I am sounding angry, but sometimes I just cannot make out > what you are trying to communicate and then what you say ends up making me > wonder as to where your sensitivities, logics and brain lie.* > > You are welcome to attack... I do not mind... > As I said, if you are Muslim I do not mind at all... because Muslims know > what they are doing... and they are united enough to do it.... > The greatest enemy of Hindus are Hindus only... they never know what they > are doing.. they never understand what is Secularism... they themselves > never have respected their own religion... They have not even tried to know > what is in their religion... They are idiots... And it is because of that > they are facing problems... > > You can see, where Hindus are actually dominant (Areas of Gujarat can be > taken as example).. you will not find problems even for Muslims... It the so > called modern visioned Hindus, who live on Wine and think freedom is > enjoying women and having girl friends that are facing all problems... > Majority of molestations take place with these type of girls.... > > But what I told about Kashmir is also true... Hindu women were dragged out > of Hindu families and the families were thrown out of the state... There is > no doubt about it... And I can list down to you the families who have still > their women members missing and living in various regions of the nation... > > I have read Quran and I know what it teaches... How it starts and how it > slowly hardens and shapes the mind of its followers... It is completely > against all other religions.. and nowhere teaches peace... At least, you > cannot convince someone who have read it... Anyway, that is a literature > meant for Muslims and we do not have to do anything in that... we can from > outside only suggest, do not kill, do not hate... here is a group of > people who are not religious - for even Supreme Court said that Hinduism is > not a Religion, it is a way of life - then what is wrong with my Hindu > friends to talk on Hinduism... for they would be actually talking Humanity > then... > > Best regards, > > ------------------------------ > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it > now. > From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 13:11:11 2008 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:11:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Resisting Coastal Invasion Message-ID: <3457ce860801172341k3fc5faabpef586e6ce5e86a66@mail.gmail.com> ViBGYOR Film Festival 2008 January 19, 5-00 to 8-30pm Venue: SCM House, Mission Road,Bangalore Images you didn't see Music video/ Dir. Anand Patwardhan/ English/ India/2005/ 5 minutes Resisting Coastal Invasion Documentary/Dir. K.P. Sasi/ Tamil, Malayalam, English/ English Subtitled/ India/ 2007/ 57 minutes. http://www.keralafishworkers.org http://www.alakal.net From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 13:28:28 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:28:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 In-Reply-To: <96c0bb200801172252i57ab92dfp7adde0d91fae394e@mail.gmail.com> References: <908694.82450.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70801172103gff1c2cej297e0131e0115d27@mail.gmail.com> <96c0bb200801172145g5bd99f3fof5e61ed97d65c30a@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70801172244l50c681c2ia98bcfad68bd15eb@mail.gmail.com> <96c0bb200801172252i57ab92dfp7adde0d91fae394e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801172358n7c9464b5k33bd456b3dd5ab67@mail.gmail.com> yeah ,....... maybe.............. as you said. On 1/18/08, faiz ullah wrote: > > Thanks Pawan, > > It's maybe better this way...that i don't understand it. if I did, I'd > have > lost the capacity to love. > > :) > > > > > On Jan 18, 2008 12:14 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Dear Faizullah , > > > > If you have failed to understand the word nationalism , that i quite > > understandable . > > > > Regards > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On 1/18/08, faiz ullah wrote: > > > > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > I've not been able to understand the idea of nationalism to this day, > > > and I sincerely believe that its meaning (if there is one) will elude > me for > > > the rest of my life. Likewise, it beats me when i try to understand > what > > > 'turning' into an anti national means. Whom does a nationalist love > (its > > > people, land, offices, poor?) and whom does an anti-national go ahead > and > > > hurt (its people, land, offices, poor?). > > > > > > Just in case you're not up to writing a response, please do take out > > > some time to answer the following multiple choice question... > > > > > > Deriving from the statement : "When a hindu is violated he doesn't > turn > > > anti national" please choose the correct or approximate analogy > > > > > > a. When a muslim/christian/sikh/parsi is violated he always turns anti > > > national > > > b. When a muslim/christian/sikh/parsi is violated he might turns anti > > > national > > > c. When a muslim/christian/sikh/parsi is violated he should turns anti > > > national > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 18, 2008 10:33 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > Zainab , > > > > > > > > I do not diagree that representatives of states sometimes do misuse > > > > their > > > > authority . However the difference is that when a hindu is violated > he > > > > > > > > doesnt turn anti national. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/18/08, Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > > > > > > > > My dear Chanchal, > > > > > > > > > > Before you unsubscribe from the list, let us have a good argument. > I > > > > have > > > > > an > > > > > appetite for one and it's strange that my appetite emerges when > you > > > > are > > > > > vocal on an issue. Anyhow, let's get down to the "facts". > > > > > > > > > > Firstly, until you do not tell me where you got the information > > > > from, I > > > > > have > > > > > no way to find out whether this is "correct" or "not". > > > > > > > > > > Secondly, I have been to Kashmir too and have been eve teased on > the > > > > roads > > > > > by "Hindu" soldiers if you please. (I thought patriotic souls like > > > > you > > > > > don't > > > > > make distinctions on religious grounds when it comes to the > > > > army??!?!?!) > > > > > > > > > > Thirdly, in any conflict situation where the army is brought into > > > > the > > > > > picture, there are likely to be violences committed against women, > > > > whether > > > > > the women are Hindu or Muslim. If you have been to Kashmir, you > > > > don't need > > > > > to be reminded of what happened to the girls in the Kunan Poshpora > > > > > incident? > > > > > (unless of course you choose not to see this aspect of "facts" > > > > because it > > > > > does not suit your position!?!) If you have ever heard of violence > > > > in > > > > > Punjab, you don't need to be told of how women, irrespective of > > > > whether > > > > > they > > > > > are "Hindu" or "Muslim" or "Punjabi" (in case you think "Hindu" > > > > don't > > > > > apply > > > > > to "Punjabi" women), have been raped/coerced into sleeping with > the > > > > > policemen. > > > > > > > > > > Fourthly, on the second evening of our time in Srinagar, the boys > > > > and > > > > > girls > > > > > who had come with me, were sitting in the houseboat and discussing > > > > > "India", > > > > > "Kashmir" "Hindu-Muslim conflicts in India", etc. with Kashmiri > > > > boys. The > > > > > Kashmiri boys referred to the violences against Muslims in "India" > > > > and the > > > > > "Indian" girls and boys (I am going to be killed for calling one > of > > > > them > > > > > "Indian" because he is against state violence in Telangana) spoke > of > > > > the > > > > > exodus of the Pandits. At one point in the discussion, someone > > > > raised the > > > > > point stating that there are enough "facts" that can be gotten to > > > > support > > > > > "our points of view", and none of these would be wrong. The point > is > > > > > whether > > > > > we are willing to budge from our *positions* and see other > > > > perspectives. > > > > > > > > > > You can continue to support the army and get evidences about > Muslim > > > > men in > > > > > the army committing violence against Hindu women and you can work > > > > the > > > > > flawed > > > > > logics of your flawed mathematics posed with history the way you > > > > like to > > > > > see > > > > > it. And you can even continue to say that you don't hate Muslims > but > > > > are > > > > > wanting them to raise their voices against these happenings. But > why > > > > don't > > > > > you have the "guts" to get down from your position and see that > > > > violence > > > > > is > > > > > being committed against women in almost all conflict areas whether > > > > it is > > > > > Punjab or North East or Kashmir or Palestine or Nicaragua or Iraq. > > > > And > > > > > here > > > > > it is not a question of Hindu women versus Muslim women versus > > > > Christian > > > > > women versus alien women. It is a matter of women violated by the > > > > state > > > > > which manifests itself in the form of the army. I hope that as a > > > > woman, > > > > > you > > > > > can be sensitive to this rather than brush this aside and get into > > > > your > > > > > baseless (until you quote sources and evidence) ranting about > > > > "Hindu" and > > > > > "Muslim"! > > > > > > > > > > Apologies if I am sounding angry, but sometimes I just cannot make > > > > out > > > > > what > > > > > you are trying to communicate and then what you say ends up making > > > > me > > > > > wonder > > > > > as to where your sensitivities, logics and brain lie. > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > > > Zainab > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 17, 2008 10:37 PM, chanchal malviya < > > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > It would be great, if I am unsubscribed from this list.. > > > > > > I do not want to waste my time with people who cannot see beyond > > > > the > > > > > > screen... > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you all... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > > > From: Kulpreet Singh < zapfmann at gmail.com > > > > > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:32:42 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up > Govt. > > > > at > > > > > Delhi > > > > > > - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday 17 January 2008 22:27:53 Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Way to go Zainab! > > > > > > > > > > > > -kp > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Chanchal, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you please quote the sources of your information? > Otherwise > > > > we can > > > > > > all > > > > > > > cook up facts ad nauseum, to suit our points of view. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanking you in advance, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yours truly, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zainab > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 17, 2008 9:51 PM, chanchal malviya < > > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > The news is correct.. But there is more depth to such news.. > > > > > > > > Like the one I am quoting here.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In Kashmir some Army officials have been court martialed.. > you > > > > all > > > > > > know > > > > > > > > this.. > > > > > > > > But the real stories has many faces.. > > > > > > > > one of them is: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Muslim senior officers had forced junior Hindu officers to > > > > bring > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > girls for enjoyment... > > > > > > > > And somehow these juniors ran away and didn't do it.. and > they > > > > were > > > > > > court > > > > > > > > martialed.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So those who defame Indian Army in Kashmir and other places, > > > > must > > > > > also > > > > > > > > try to know the name of officers who had done the crime and > > > > just not > > > > > > > > defame the whole Army.. > > > > > > > > For example, we can take the case of who posted this mail... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > > > > > From: OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > > > To: peaceworksdefenders at googlegroups.com ; > > > > > > > > sexualityinstitute2002 at yahoogroups.co.in ; sarai list < > > > > > > > > reader-list at sarai.net >; ILS Across Borders < > > > > > > > > ILS-Across-Borders at googlegroups.com> > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 9:39:40 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up > Govt. > > > > at > > > > > Delhi > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and Armed Forces > > > > Special > > > > > > > > Powers Act * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *On the Eve of Republic Day * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *25th January 2008 * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On July 15 2004, for the first time in its history, the > Indian > > > > > > > > > > > > "democracy" witnessed an unusual mode of protest against its > > > > > > government. > > > > > > > > About a dozen women came out on the street and disrobed > > > > themselves, > > > > > > > > protesting against the > > > > > > > > AFSPA and rape/murder of Thangjam Manorama, in front of an > > > > occupied > > > > > > > > historic > > > > > > > > place, the Kangla Fort in Manipur, (where the 17 th Assam > > > > Rifles > > > > > > > > Battalion is stationed). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The message of the protest was "INDIAN ARMY RAPE US". This > > > > novel > > > > > > > > agitation sparked the awakening of many citizens inside the > > > > country > > > > > as > > > > > > > > well as people > > > > > > > > in other parts of world, on the plight, sufferings and > > > > atrocities on > > > > > > > > Manipur > > > > > > > > people under the military boots. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *These brave and noble women from Manipur are coming to > Delhi > > > > to > > > > > stir > > > > > > up > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > claustrophobic Government of India, on the eve of Republic > Day > > > > and > > > > > > going > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > continue for a month time. The protest is being organized > > > > against > > > > > the > > > > > > > > Central Government's arrogant behavior, blatant propaganda > and > > > > > > > > > > > > insensitivity > > > > > > > > towards the plight of people of Manipur * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Indian Government has actively encouraged violence > > > > committed by > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > security forces under the draconian law -- Armed Forces > > > > Special > > > > > Powers > > > > > > > > Act, > > > > > > > > 1958 (AFSPA, 1958), which legitimizes any army personnel to > > > > shoot, > > > > > > kill > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > destroy a person or a property on mere "suspicion". This Act > > > > has > > > > > also > > > > > > > > promoted militarization in the entire North East, where > > > > possibility > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > genuine legal proceedings to take place for justice or > > > > > accountability > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > become an impossibility and use of extra-judicial killings > by > > > > > > > > state-promoted > > > > > > > > renegade groups like the SULFA in Assam and Ikhwaanis in > > > > Kashmir > > > > > with > > > > > > > > complete impunity has become endemic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The country is proud to claim itself as the world's largest > > > > > democracy, > > > > > > > > but how it is defining it, is a real question and a mockery, > > > > when > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > is martial law functioning (AFSPA 1958) in North East and > J&K > > > > > regions > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > nearly last fifty years. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friends, this kleptocratic government is a clear and present > > > > danger > > > > > to > > > > > > > > every > > > > > > > > citizen of this country. We need to protest fiercely until > the > > > > > > > > > system > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > put > > > > > > > > in place, in order to ensure the security of common > citizens. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *We are inviting every citizens of this nation to > participate > > > > in the > > > > > > > > campaign to strengthen our long overdue peaceful struggle as > > > > many > > > > > days > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > you would be able to. This is the least we can do to protest > > > > against > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > injustice system which saddens our hearts yet the government > > > > ignores > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > listen our plight. We are confident that truth will emerge > > > > > victorious > > > > > > > > one day through your esteem support. * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Looking forward for your kind presence. * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Please come and join on the* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity, and the Armed > > > > Forces > > > > > > Special > > > > > > > > Powers Act. * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Date: 25th January 2008* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Place: Jantar Mantar * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Time: 1:00 pm* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Recommendation for the repeal of AFSPA 1958 from government > > > > > committees > > > > > > > > and international organizations: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > · 1991, UN Human Rights Committee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > · 2005, Justice Jeevan Reddy Committee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > · 2006, India UN CEDAW Report > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > · 2007, UN CERD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > · 2007, Administrative Reform Committee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Campaign Coordinator > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Onil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reachout > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +91-9818781767 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: onilrights at gmail.com , reachout2006 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sundara Babu Nagappan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Independent Researcher > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +91-9311744919 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: babuubab at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sapamcha Kangleipal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NE Youth Coordinator > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +91-9862096539 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: kangleipal at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vani Subramanian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Saheli > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +91-9891128911 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: saheliwomen at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kavita Joshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Impulse > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +91-9868888642 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: kj.impulse at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tanya Mathan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Coordinator, Voluntary Agency Placement Programme (VAPP), > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady Shri Ram College > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +91-9891703465 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: vapp.lsr at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *(Esteemed supporters please endorsed your organization name > > > > and > > > > > bring > > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > organization's name banner on the day of protest) * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > > > > > > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > > > > > > > Room 016 B > > > > > > > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > > > > > > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 416.876.7926 > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > >___________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > > > > > > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > subscribe > > > > > > > in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List > > > > archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > > > > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > > > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > faiz > > > > > > > > > -- > faiz > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Fri Jan 18 14:47:32 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 01:17:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 Message-ID: <866182.11159.qm@web90415.mail.mud.yahoo.com> See friends... Lot of scraps are discussed here... All seem to be masters... No one here is less than any other... Great... Equality (no integrity)... I am proposing a simple thing to all of the members.. Let us stop talking on issues... Let us stop assaulting others... The list of such issues and assaults is never ending... Let us start posting Strategies, Ideas that can mean Nationalism as understood by you all... Let us see how constructive we all are... ----- Original Message ---- From: Zainab Bawa To: chanchal malviya ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 1:05:37 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 Dear Chanchal, Please clarify what you mean when you say: Secondly, I have been to Kashmir too and have been eve teased on the roads by "Hindu" soldiers if you please. (I thought patriotic souls like you don't make distinctions on religious grounds when it comes to the army??!?!?!) I do not know you are a Hindu or a Muslim... If you can clarify this to me, but your name seems to be of a Muslims... And if so, this is expected.... I talked to a Muslim rickshaw wala at Bangalore and he tells that Muslims are facing huge problem in Kashmir by Army... What do they know and how do they know? Answer is known to all Muslims... It does not matter whether I am Hindu or Muslim. You can consider me to be of whatever identity. In my previous communications with you, I have very clearly specified that if I was in a "Muslim" family, that does not mean it is the primary identity that I wear on me. It happens to be one of the identities that I adorn. Are you implying that because I happen to be "Muslim", it is obvious that I am going to "complain" about being eve teased by "Hindu" soldiers? If yes, then I publicly take offense to your statement. Again I repeat, that "Muslim" by itself means many things and therefore you when you bracket everyone as "Muslim", I cannot understand what you mean. Throughout your email you have tried to seek refuge in some history and some books, but nowhere have you even sought to be reflexive. Courage and 'guts' don't lie in accepting false propaganda. They lie in being to reflect on ourselves and where our prejudices and biases are coming from. Angrily, Zainab On Jan 18, 2008 11:11 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: Nice mail from you.. Let me answer each of them.. Firstly, until you do not tell me where you got the information from, I have no way to find out whether this is "correct" or "not". I cannot tell you this, and if required I can take my words back... I don't have any intention to convince others on this... I said it because I want the news should also contain names of Army personals involved in such incidences, which is never said by News channels.. hence they may be right or I may be right... Secondly, I have been to Kashmir too and have been eve teased on the roads by "Hindu" soldiers if you please. (I thought patriotic souls like you don't make distinctions on religious grounds when it comes to the army??!?!?!) I do not know you are a Hindu or a Muslim... If you can clarify this to me, but your name seems to be of a Muslims... And if so, this is expected.... I talked to a Muslim rickshaw wala at Bangalore and he tells that Muslims are facing huge problem in Kashmir by Army... What do they know and how do they know? Answer is known to all Muslims... Thirdly, in any conflict situation where the army is brought into the picture, there are likely to be violences committed against women, whether the women are Hindu or Muslim. If you have been to Kashmir, you don't need to be reminded of what happened to the girls in the Kunan Poshpora incident? (unless of course you choose not to see this aspect of "facts" because it does not suit your position!?!) If you have ever heard of violence in Punjab, you don't need to be told of how women, irrespective of whether they are "Hindu" or "Muslim" or "Punjabi" (in case you think "Hindu" don't apply to "Punjabi" women), have been raped/coerced into sleeping with the policemen. Molestations is crime, purely written as per Acts and Laws in this country... Is it same in Islamic culture? I do not want to bring out things that are internal to Muslims, they have a separate law for their society and anything happening in their society is not liable to thrown on Governance of India... Imrana case is one among many that says the story... If you talk about Hindus, as per the religion, as per Vedas, God do not exist where women are not there.. Women are treated as Laxmi in every house.. There are various forms of Shakti that are worshipped (Durga puja as an example)... So, Hindus know how to treat women as a cultural practice.. The events of mistreating women, of course, takes place here also and there are clear laws to deal with them.. Unlike Islam a women can raise her voice with effect and without any man's support... Fourthly, on the second evening of our time in Srinagar, the boys and girls who had come with me, were sitting in the houseboat and discussing "India", "Kashmir" "Hindu-Muslim conflicts in India", etc. with Kashmiri boys. The Kashmiri boys referred to the violences against Muslims in "India" and the "Indian" girls and boys (I am going to be killed for calling one of them "Indian" because he is against state violence in Telangana) spoke of the exodus of the Pandits. At one point in the discussion, someone raised the point stating that there are enough "facts" that can be gotten to support "our points of view", and none of these would be wrong. The point is whether we are willing to budge from our positions and see other perspectives. I do not understand what is voilence in your words... Do you mean to say that Hindus in India blasts bombs in Muslim areas.. Do you mean to say that Hindus in India rape Muslim women... Please, do not say things that has no meaning.. It is always the other way round.. and I need not present evidences.. there are hundreds of them taking place.. As far as riots are concerned.. they are nearly always initiated by Muslims and Hindus being in majority somehow proves to be among the suppressors.. For example, Gujarat riot was an initiation took by Muslims when they gathered in thousands with weapons and arms to burn around 60 hindus alive in train... Do not tell me that Hindus are also doing the same in Islamic countries... I know that they all are paying Jazya and at times they are attacked, their temples are all broken... You can continue to support the army and get evidences about Muslim men in the army committing violence against Hindu women and you can work the flawed logics of your flawed mathematics posed with history the way you like to see it. And you can even continue to say that you don't hate Muslims but are wanting them to raise their voices against these happenings. But why don't you have the "guts" to get down from your position and see that violence is being committed against women in almost all conflict areas whether it is Punjab or North East or Kashmir or Palestine or Nicaragua or Iraq. And here it is not a question of Hindu women versus Muslim women versus Christian women versus alien women. It is a matter of women violated by the state which manifests itself in the form of the army. I hope that as a woman, you can be sensitive to this rather than brush this aside and get into your baseless (until you quote sources and evidence) ranting about "Hindu" and "Muslim"! Women has the right place in only one community of the world.. At least in terms of religious texts, it is Hinduism alone that teaches to worship women... Women are physically weak and due to this, they have faced problems largely in all societies, to which I agree totally.. Hindus have categorized it a criminalized act... Dear friend, Hindus have learnt to worship Cow as a mother, river as a mother, nation as a mother... Swami Vivekanand said - In west, except for mother all are women are life wife, but among Hindus every other women than wife is a mother... This is the basic culture of Hindus... The events that you talk about (mistreatment of women) takes place with girls and women who have discarded their religion.. they want freedom like western girl and they are facing problems alike western girls... I am very clear on a simple point - if a girl or woman knows to have respect and honor for herself, no Hindus will ever try to even look at her even in disguise - this is the true meaning of Satitva (not the Sati pratha that is known to the world).... Apologies if I am sounding angry, but sometimes I just cannot make out what you are trying to communicate and then what you say ends up making me wonder as to where your sensitivities, logics and brain lie. You are welcome to attack... I do not mind... As I said, if you are Muslim I do not mind at all... because Muslims know what they are doing... and they are united enough to do it.... The greatest enemy of Hindus are Hindus only... they never know what they are doing.. they never understand what is Secularism... they themselves never have respected their own religion... They have not even tried to know what is in their religion... They are idiots... And it is because of that they are facing problems... You can see, where Hindus are actually dominant (Areas of Gujarat can be taken as example).. you will not find problems even for Muslims... It the so called modern visioned Hindus, who live on Wine and think freedom is enjoying women and having girl friends that are facing all problems... Majority of molestations take place with these type of girls.... But what I told about Kashmir is also true... Hindu women were dragged out of Hindu families and the families were thrown out of the state... There is no doubt about it... And I can list down to you the families who have still their women members missing and living in various regions of the nation... I have read Quran and I know what it teaches... How it starts and how it slowly hardens and shapes the mind of its followers... It is completely against all other religions.. and nowhere teaches peace... At least, you cannot convince someone who have read it... Anyway, that is a literature meant for Muslims and we do not have to do anything in that... we can from outside only suggest, do not kill, do not hate... here is a group of people who are not religious - for even Supreme Court said that Hinduism is not a Religion, it is a way of life - then what is wrong with my Hindu friends to talk on Hinduism... for they would be actually talking Humanity then... Best regards, Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 18:20:10 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 18:20:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30801172312y1db36284u42ae7c3bd0f3a158@mail.gmail.com> References: <908694.82450.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <9c06aab30801172312y1db36284u42ae7c3bd0f3a158@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801180450u12fafa0fh32f67f08a6998bc8@mail.gmail.com> Shivam has an eye for right thing......Chanchal to stay ...... On 1/18/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Dear Chanchal, > > As the list footer says, to unsubscribe you need to visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > :) > > On 1/17/08, chanchal malviya wrote: > > It would be great, if I am unsubscribed from this list.. > > I do not want to waste my time with people who cannot see beyond the > screen... > > > > Thank you all... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Kulpreet Singh > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:32:42 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at > Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > On Thursday 17 January 2008 22:27:53 Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > > Way to go Zainab! > > > > -kp > > > > > Dear Chanchal, > > > > > > Can you please quote the sources of your information? Otherwise we can > all > > > cook up facts ad nauseum, to suit our points of view. > > > > > > Thanking you in advance, > > > > > > Yours truly, > > > > > > Zainab > > > > > > > > > On Jan 17, 2008 9:51 PM, chanchal malviya > > > > > > wrote: > > > > The news is correct.. But there is more depth to such news.. > > > > Like the one I am quoting here.. > > > > > > > > In Kashmir some Army officials have been court martialed.. you all > know > > > > this.. > > > > But the real stories has many faces.. > > > > one of them is: > > > > > > > > Muslim senior officers had forced junior Hindu officers to bring > Hindu > > > > girls for enjoyment... > > > > And somehow these juniors ran away and didn't do it.. and they were > court > > > > martialed.. > > > > > > > > So those who defame Indian Army in Kashmir and other places, must > also > > > > try to know the name of officers who had done the crime and just not > > > > defame the whole Army.. > > > > For example, we can take the case of who posted this mail... > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > To: peaceworksdefenders at googlegroups.com; > > > > sexualityinstitute2002 at yahoogroups.co.in; sarai list < > > > > reader-list at sarai.net>; ILS Across Borders < > > > > ILS-Across-Borders at googlegroups.com> > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 9:39:40 PM > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at > Delhi - > > > > Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and Armed Forces Special > > > > Powers Act * > > > > > > > > *On the Eve of Republic Day * > > > > > > > > *25th January 2008 * > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On July 15 2004, for the first time in its history, the Indian > > > > "democracy" witnessed an unusual mode of protest against its > government. > > > > About a dozen women came out on the street and disrobed themselves, > > > > protesting against the > > > > AFSPA and rape/murder of Thangjam Manorama, in front of an occupied > > > > historic > > > > place, the Kangla Fort in Manipur, (where the 17 th Assam Rifles > > > > Battalion is stationed). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The message of the protest was "INDIAN ARMY RAPE US". This novel > > > > agitation sparked the awakening of many citizens inside the country > as > > > > well as people > > > > in other parts of world, on the plight, sufferings and atrocities on > > > > Manipur > > > > people under the military boots. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *These brave and noble women from Manipur are coming to Delhi to > stir up > > > > the > > > > claustrophobic Government of India, on the eve of Republic Day and > going > > > > to > > > > continue for a month time. The protest is being organized against > the > > > > Central Government's arrogant behavior, blatant propaganda and > > > > insensitivity > > > > towards the plight of people of Manipur * > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > The Indian Government has actively encouraged violence committed by > the > > > > security forces under the draconian law -- Armed Forces Special > Powers > > > > Act, > > > > 1958 (AFSPA, 1958), which legitimizes any army personnel to shoot, > kill > > > > and > > > > destroy a person or a property on mere "suspicion". This Act has > also > > > > promoted militarization in the entire North East, where possibility > for > > > > any > > > > genuine legal proceedings to take place for justice or > accountability has > > > > become an impossibility and use of extra-judicial killings by > > > > state-promoted > > > > renegade groups like the SULFA in Assam and Ikhwaanis in Kashmir > with > > > > complete impunity has become endemic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The country is proud to claim itself as the world's largest > democracy, > > > > but how it is defining it, is a real question and a mockery, when > there > > > > is martial law functioning (AFSPA 1958) in North East and J&K > regions for > > > > nearly last fifty years. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friends, this kleptocratic government is a clear and present danger > to > > > > every > > > > citizen of this country. We need to protest fiercely until the > system is > > > > put > > > > in place, in order to ensure the security of common citizens. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *We are inviting every citizens of this nation to participate in the > > > > campaign to strengthen our long overdue peaceful struggle as many > days as > > > > you would be able to. This is the least we can do to protest against > this > > > > injustice system which saddens our hearts yet the government ignores > to > > > > listen our plight. We are confident that truth will emerge > victorious > > > > one day through your esteem support. * > > > > > > > > * Looking forward for your kind presence. * > > > > > > > > *Please come and join on the* > > > > > > > > *Campaign against Militarization, Impunity, and the Armed Forces > Special > > > > Powers Act. * > > > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > > *Date: 25th January 2008* > > > > > > > > *Place: Jantar Mantar * > > > > > > > > *Time: 1:00 pm* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Recommendation for the repeal of AFSPA 1958 from government > committees > > > > and international organizations: > > > > > > > > · 1991, UN Human Rights Committee > > > > > > > > · 2005, Justice Jeevan Reddy Committee > > > > > > > > · 2006, India UN CEDAW Report > > > > > > > > · 2007, UN CERD > > > > > > > > · 2007, Administrative Reform Committee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Campaign Coordinator > > > > > > > > Onil > > > > > > > > Reachout > > > > > > > > +91-9818781767 > > > > > > > > Email: onilrights at gmail.com , reachout2006 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sundara Babu Nagappan > > > > > > > > Independent Researcher > > > > > > > > +91-9311744919 > > > > > > > > Email: babuubab at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sapamcha Kangleipal > > > > > > > > NE Youth Coordinator > > > > > > > > +91-9862096539 > > > > > > > > Email: kangleipal at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vani Subramanian > > > > > > > > Saheli > > > > > > > > +91-9891128911 > > > > > > > > Email: saheliwomen at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kavita Joshi > > > > > > > > Impulse > > > > > > > > +91-9868888642 > > > > > > > > Email: kj.impulse at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tanya Mathan > > > > > > > > Coordinator, Voluntary Agency Placement Programme (VAPP), > > > > > > > > Lady Shri Ram College > > > > > > > > +91-9891703465 > > > > > > > > Email: vapp.lsr at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *(Esteemed supporters please endorsed your organization name and > bring > > > > your > > > > organization's name banner on the day of protest) * > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > > > Room 016 B > > > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > > > > > 416.876.7926 > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > > >___________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > > > in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Fri Jan 18 19:37:10 2008 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:07:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] are these nationalists Message-ID: <187349.34224.qm@web8409.mail.in.yahoo.com> Friends Look at these two news items for what's being discussed on this list right now: 12 convicted in Bilkis Bano rape case 18 Jan 2008, 1710 hrs IST,PTI MUMBAI: Twelve persons, including a police official, were convicted by a special court here on Friday in the Bilkis Bano gang-rape case related to the post-Godhra communal violence in Gujarat. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/12_convicted_in_Bilkis_Bano_rape_case/articleshow/2711484.cms ---------------------------------------------- 'Modi gave us a free run to do whatever we wanted' 26 Oct 2007, 0101 hrs IST,TNN NEW DELHI: "We made a complete rocket launcher here... We distributed so many weapons, people were shocked. We'd make them here and then test them." Here are some more such shocking 'testimonies': Suresh Richard, an accused in the Naroda Patiya episode in which over 200 Muslims were officially estimated to have been killed, said on camera that Modi visited the locality the same evening, February 28, and thanked the perpetrators of the violence saying, "Aap dhanya ho... (You are blessed)." Rajendra Vyas, a senior VHP functionary who was on the Sabarmati Express that was set on fire in Godhra, said, "The Muslims had played a one-day match with us... They have given us a target of 60... We have to win this match at any cost, so don't stop till you have made 600 runs... Modi gave us a free run to do whatever we wanted... The police were with us..." Babu Bajrangi, a Bajrang Dal activist who has been in the news for blocking the carnage movie Parzania from being screened in the state, revealed that police commissioner P C Pande, who has recently been moved out of the DGP's post by the Election Commission, had ordered that the 700-800 dead bodies at Naroda Patiya be clandestinely picked up and dumped all over Ahmedabad. "The commissioner came that night and said that if there were so many dead at one place, it would create trouble for him... After killing them, I felt like Maharana Pratap... We killed at will, turned the place into Haldighati." Key witness in the Godhra case, Ranjitsingh Patel, a petrol pump employee who deposed that he had sold 140 litres of petrol to the accused on the eve of the Sabarmati episode, admits that he and his colleague were both paid Rs 50,000 each by Noel Parmar, the chief investigating officer. "Noel saheb gave me fifty thousand, showed me a photograph and said I had to identify him." Two BJP members, Murli Mulchandani and Kakul Pathak, who claimed to be eyewitnesses to the Godhra attack and identified many of the accused, admit they were not even at the station that fateful day. Mulchandani said: "I wasn't at the station, I was sleeping at home. But the police put me among the witnesses." Pathak said, "The police gave all the names. None of the eyewitnesses wrote their statements. The police did." Arvind Pandya, the government's counsel in the ongoing proceedings before the Nanavati-Shah Commission probing the carnage, said that the accused had nothing to fear from either of the retired judges. "Nanavati is a clever man... He wants money... Of the two judges, Shah is intelligent... woh anpe wala hai (he is our man)... he is sympathetic to us... Nanavati is after money." Bharat Bhatt, a public prosecutor, said that he was shielding the Hindu accused even as he was supposed to be arguing against them. "I tell all the Hindus not to smile when they see me... not to say a word to me. I tell them that I will scold them if they do so... Sometimes I deceive them... I scare them but later show my affections too..." In the Gulbarg Society massacre, accused Madan Chawal gives a first-hand account of how former Congress MP Ehsan Jafri was hacked limb by limb and burned. He says Jafri offered them money in return for his life. "We said yes. When he came out, we took the money and pounced on him." Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from any browser, without download. Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php/ From jbnaudy at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 21:55:02 2008 From: jbnaudy at gmail.com (Jean-Baptiste Naudy) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 17:25:02 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] SOCIETE REALISTE: Activities in Berlin, January 2008. Message-ID: ============================ COOPERATIVE SOCIETE REALISTE ============================ Activities in Berlin: January 2008. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TABLE - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - i/ POLISTERIES Friday 25 JAN, 20:00 a lecture presented at uqbar, Schwedenstr. 16, Wedding, 13357 Berlin www.uqbar-ev.de ii/ TRANSMEDIALE: Conspire... Exhibition opening: Tuesday 29 JAN Open through Sun 24 FEB 24. Festival located at Haus der Kulturen der Welt, John-Foster-Dulles-Allee 10, 10557 Berlin http://www.transmediale.de iii/ THE ARTIST, THE SCIENTIST AND THE INDUSTRIAL Thursday 31 JAN, 15:30 a lecture at the Bilderberg Salon within the frame of Transmediale Haus der Kulturen der Welt, John-Foster-Dulles-Allee 10, 10557 Berlin http://www.transmediale.de - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - CONTENT: POLISTERIES - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lecture A stere is an old measurement unit, coming from the greek -stereos-, which means "a volume of solid matter". Societe Realiste will use this notion to relate, > on one hand, the work established by its MINISTERE DE L'ARCHITECTURE ( http://www.societerealiste.net/#MA) about blocks as a perception unit (see MA: Volksballast der Republik); membranes as a territorial device between various kind of steres (see: MA: Deuxième Contact); the relation between a practical discipline and a work volume (see: MA:Volksballast der Republik (The Seminar)) > on the other, the exploration of "steres of utopia" by "Le Producteur", the 2008 political transitions collection of Societe Realiste's Trend Bureau TRANSITIONERS Friday 25 JAN, 20:00 uqbar Schwedenstr. 16, Wedding, 13357 Berlin T +49.30.46069107 projectspace (at) uqbar-ev.de www.uqbar-ev.de - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - CONTENT: TRANSMEDIALE - Conspire... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Exhibition Transmediale: CONSPIRE… the transmediale exhibition, guest curated by Natasa Petresin-Bachelez, focuses on the strategic notion of the conspiratorial act. In poetic reference to the term's Latin roots, conspirare, the exhibition deconstructs the nature of conspiracy into a silent and cosmic act of 'collective breathing' suggesting a sharply targeted, yet anonymous and intimate form of creative collaboration. The works and projects chosen approach the perceptive borders of our daily lives with coded instructions, exploratory maps and speculative allusions which provoke alternative views about the way in which we understand information and what we believe to be universal truths. As such, thematic constructs around the notions of conspiratorial truths, bio-organic systems and twisted realities emerge from the contextualising clusters explored within the exhibition. Featuring works by: Julieta Aranda, Uršula Berlot, Lene Berg, Egle Budvytyte, Bureau d'Etudes, Alain Declerc, Alban Hajdinaj, Joana Hadjithomas and Khalil Joreige, Ilana Halperin, Norimichi Hirakawa, Janez Janša, Christoph Keller, Hassan Khan, Kimsooja, Olga Kisseleva, Knowbotic Research, Julius Koller, Mangelos, Alice Miceli, Laurent Montaron, Matt O'dell, Trevor Paglen, Lisa Parks, Marko Peljhan, Tobias Putrih, Peter Sandbichler, SilentCell Network, Société Réaliste, Einar Thorsteinn, Ykon, Artur Zmijewski, Exhibition opening: Tuesday 29 JAN Open through Sun 24 FEB 24. Festival located at Haus der Kulturen der Welt, John-Foster-Dulles-Allee 10, 10557 Berlin http://www.transmediale.de - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - CONTENT: THE ARTIST, THE SCIENTIST AND THE INDUSTRIAL - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lecture Invited for the Transmediale 08 : Conspire exhibition, the cooperative Société Réaliste will present the 2008 collection of Transitioners, its political trends design bureau. This collection, entitled Le Producteur, is inspired by major utopist thinkers of the first three decades of the 19th century, such as Fourier, Enfantin, Rodrigues, Cabet, Owen, or Saint-Simon. Their role as theoritical activists in the first stage of the industrial revolution has been central and still nourishes our common political, social and economical representations. Indeed, inventing what could be nowadays called political design, they managed to melt problematics coming from fields as different as politics, culture, spirituality, industrialism or science. They have proposed programs for transforming modern societies, partly realized, partly still at the basis of current political critical theory. For its intervention at the Bilderberg Salon, Société Réaliste will come back to the exemple of the saint-simonians, inventors of the concept of avant-garde artist. In his 1825's essay entitled "The artist, the scientist and the industrial" (L'artiste, le savant et l'industriel), one of their key philosopher, Olinde Rodrigues, explains that considering "the power of the arts as indeed the most immediate" in order to reform, every rational society should place the artist next to the scientist to pilot the pioneering social machine. The work of most of these utopian thinkers had been to determine how to improve the industrial society, how to make it peaceful, how to design it as a perfectly balanced and dynamic system. The stake of this intervention is to try to understand how utopian strategies and techniques are still used in order to pilot the social machine. Thursday 31 JAN, 15:30 Bilderberg Salon Transmediale Haus der Kulturen der Welt, John-Foster-Dulles-Allee 10, 10557 Berlin http://www.transmediale.de ========================= SOCIETE REALISTE Ferenc Gróf / Jean-Baptiste Naudy intelligence at societerealiste.net http://www.societerealiste.net ========================= From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 23:24:05 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 23:24:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] are these nationalists In-Reply-To: <187349.34224.qm@web8409.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <187349.34224.qm@web8409.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801180954k43eb2f8cq336c0b3f09411894@mail.gmail.com> At least 6 years after the Gujarat riot , which started after some fundamentalists burnt alive scores of Hindu Pilgrims returning from Ayodhya , few people were convicted. Compare it with the case of Kashmiri Pandits , even after 18 years , not even a single person has been convicted in Kashmir for killing of more than 3000 Kashmiri pandits . Not to talk of rape and arson against this community. For that reason that the state is ruled by camouflage Islamic fundamentalist and Islamic groups are in majority. When will the justice be served to Kashmiri Pandits ? At least in Modis gujarat ....it has been served..... On 1/18/08, S.Fatima wrote: > > Friends > Look at these two news items for what's being > discussed on this list right now: > > 12 convicted in Bilkis Bano rape case > 18 Jan 2008, 1710 hrs IST,PTI > MUMBAI: Twelve persons, including a police official, > were convicted by a special court here on Friday in > the Bilkis Bano gang-rape case related to the > post-Godhra communal violence in Gujarat. > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/12_convicted_in_Bilkis_Bano_rape_case/articleshow/2711484.cms > > ---------------------------------------------- > > 'Modi gave us a free run to do whatever we wanted' > 26 Oct 2007, 0101 hrs IST,TNN > > NEW DELHI: "We made a complete rocket launcher here... > We distributed so many weapons, people were shocked. > We'd make them here and then test them." > > Here are some more such shocking 'testimonies': > > Suresh Richard, an accused in the Naroda Patiya > episode in which over 200 Muslims were officially > estimated to have been killed, said on camera that > Modi visited the locality the same evening, February > 28, and thanked the perpetrators of the violence > saying, "Aap dhanya ho... (You are blessed)." > > Rajendra Vyas, a senior VHP functionary who was on the > Sabarmati Express that was set on fire in Godhra, > said, "The Muslims had played a one-day match with > us... They have given us a target of 60... We have to > win this match at any cost, so don't stop till you > have made 600 runs... Modi gave us a free run to do > whatever we wanted... The police were with us..." > > Babu Bajrangi, a Bajrang Dal activist who has been in > the news for blocking the carnage movie Parzania from > being screened in the state, revealed that police > commissioner P C Pande, who has recently been moved > out of the DGP's post by the Election Commission, had > ordered that the 700-800 dead bodies at Naroda Patiya > be clandestinely picked up and dumped all over > Ahmedabad. > > "The commissioner came that night and said that if > there were so many dead at one place, it would create > trouble for him... After killing them, I felt like > Maharana Pratap... We killed at will, turned the place > into Haldighati." > > Key witness in the Godhra case, Ranjitsingh Patel, a > petrol pump employee who deposed that he had sold 140 > litres of petrol to the accused on the eve of the > Sabarmati episode, admits that he and his colleague > were both paid Rs 50,000 each by Noel Parmar, the > chief investigating officer. > > "Noel saheb gave me fifty thousand, showed me a > photograph and said I had to identify him." Two BJP > members, Murli Mulchandani and Kakul Pathak, who > claimed to be eyewitnesses to the Godhra attack and > identified many of the accused, admit they were not > even at the station that fateful day. > > Mulchandani said: "I wasn't at the station, I was > sleeping at home. But the police put me among the > witnesses." Pathak said, "The police gave all the > names. None of the eyewitnesses wrote their > statements. The police did." > > Arvind Pandya, the government's counsel in the ongoing > proceedings before the Nanavati-Shah Commission > probing the carnage, said that the accused had nothing > to fear from either of the retired judges. "Nanavati > is a clever man... He wants money... Of the two > judges, Shah is intelligent... woh anpe wala hai (he > is our man)... he is sympathetic to us... Nanavati is > after money." > > Bharat Bhatt, a public prosecutor, said that he was > shielding the Hindu accused even as he was supposed to > be arguing against them. > > "I tell all the Hindus not to smile when they see > me... not to say a word to me. I tell them that I will > scold them if they do so... Sometimes I deceive > them... I scare them but later show my affections > too..." > > In the Gulbarg Society massacre, accused Madan Chawal > gives a first-hand account of how former Congress MP > Ehsan Jafri was hacked limb by limb and burned. He > says Jafri offered them money in return for his life. > "We said yes. When he came out, we took the money and > pounced on him." > > > Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from any browser, without > download. Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From gowharfazili at yahoo.com Sat Jan 19 04:22:38 2008 From: gowharfazili at yahoo.com (gowhar fazli) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:52:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70801180954k43eb2f8cq336c0b3f09411894@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <302033.36819.qm@web60619.mail.yahoo.com> What has made you believe no one got punished in Kashmir. Kashmir is a virtual hell where the whole Muslim population is under imprisonment with torture and humiliation 24X7 for the last seventeen years. You have to be grossly insensitive not to notice this... despite the fact that migration of Pandits whether under state patronage or compulsion would not have been a cake-walk. In Kashmir, it is not just the miscreants who may have harmed Pandits or damaged public property or the intolerant 'fundamentalists' who are being punished... (though you will find many more times the Pandit population of such people rotting in jails, killed without impunity, tortured or 'disappeared'... ) Punishment in Kashmir is for everybody without exception (even the stooges of the state are not safe from itself). The biggest worry for you and me are the generations that are being brought up under these inhuman conditions while your kids grow up in decent neighbourhoods (I presume). With military to kick them around everyday, you cannot expect them to grow to love the state or YOU for not caring to change this. They will especially hate you for trying to privilege injustice faced by the group you cling on to so dearly, while justifying the injustice faced by those whom you would rather wish dead. In the name of militancy and fundamentalism the whole Kashmiri Muslim population has been successfully criminalized. Kashmiri Muslims are not faced with the choice of being 'patriotic' or 'unpatriotic'. This choice has already been made for them by you and the state. I seriously wonder if there is any point in telling you all this. --- Pawan Durani wrote: > At least 6 years after the Gujarat riot , which > started after some > fundamentalists burnt alive scores of Hindu Pilgrims > returning from Ayodhya > , few people were convicted. > > Compare it with the case of Kashmiri Pandits , even > after 18 years , not > even a single person has been convicted in Kashmir > for killing of more than > 3000 Kashmiri pandits . Not to talk of rape and > arson against this > community. > > For that reason that the state is ruled by > camouflage Islamic fundamentalist > and Islamic groups are in majority. > > When will the justice be served to Kashmiri Pandits > ? At least in Modis > gujarat ....it has been served..... > > > > On 1/18/08, S.Fatima > wrote: > > > > Friends > > Look at these two news items for what's being > > discussed on this list right now: > > > > 12 convicted in Bilkis Bano rape case > > 18 Jan 2008, 1710 hrs IST,PTI > > MUMBAI: Twelve persons, including a police > official, > > were convicted by a special court here on Friday > in > > the Bilkis Bano gang-rape case related to the > > post-Godhra communal violence in Gujarat. > > > > > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/12_convicted_in_Bilkis_Bano_rape_case/articleshow/2711484.cms > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > 'Modi gave us a free run to do whatever we wanted' > > 26 Oct 2007, 0101 hrs IST,TNN > > > > NEW DELHI: "We made a complete rocket launcher > here... > > We distributed so many weapons, people were > shocked. > > We'd make them here and then test them." > > > > Here are some more such shocking 'testimonies': > > > > Suresh Richard, an accused in the Naroda Patiya > > episode in which over 200 Muslims were officially > > estimated to have been killed, said on camera that > > Modi visited the locality the same evening, > February > > 28, and thanked the perpetrators of the violence > > saying, "Aap dhanya ho... (You are blessed)." > > > > Rajendra Vyas, a senior VHP functionary who was on > the > > Sabarmati Express that was set on fire in Godhra, > > said, "The Muslims had played a one-day match with > > us... They have given us a target of 60... We have > to > > win this match at any cost, so don't stop till you > > have made 600 runs... Modi gave us a free run to > do > > whatever we wanted... The police were with us..." > > > > Babu Bajrangi, a Bajrang Dal activist who has been > in > > the news for blocking the carnage movie Parzania > from > > being screened in the state, revealed that police > > commissioner P C Pande, who has recently been > moved > > out of the DGP's post by the Election Commission, > had > > ordered that the 700-800 dead bodies at Naroda > Patiya > > be clandestinely picked up and dumped all over > > Ahmedabad. > > > > "The commissioner came that night and said that if > > there were so many dead at one place, it would > create > > trouble for him... After killing them, I felt like > > Maharana Pratap... We killed at will, turned the > place > > into Haldighati." > > > > Key witness in the Godhra case, Ranjitsingh Patel, > a > > petrol pump employee who deposed that he had sold > 140 > > litres of petrol to the accused on the eve of the > > Sabarmati episode, admits that he and his > colleague > > were both paid Rs 50,000 each by Noel Parmar, the > > chief investigating officer. > > > > "Noel saheb gave me fifty thousand, showed me a > > photograph and said I had to identify him." Two > BJP > > members, Murli Mulchandani and Kakul Pathak, who > > claimed to be eyewitnesses to the Godhra attack > and > > identified many of the accused, admit they were > not > > even at the station that fateful day. > > > > Mulchandani said: "I wasn't at the station, I was > > sleeping at home. But the police put me among the > > witnesses." Pathak said, "The police gave all the > > names. None of the eyewitnesses wrote their > > statements. The police did." > > > > Arvind Pandya, the government's counsel in the > ongoing > > proceedings before the Nanavati-Shah Commission > > probing the carnage, said that the accused had > nothing > > to fear from either of the retired judges. > "Nanavati > > is a clever man... He wants money... Of the two > > judges, Shah is intelligent... woh anpe wala hai > (he > > is our man)... he is sympathetic to us... Nanavati > is > > after money." > > > > Bharat Bhatt, a public prosecutor, said that he > was > > shielding the Hindu accused even as he was > supposed to > > be arguing against them. > > > > "I tell all the Hindus not to smile when they see > > me... not to say a word to me. I tell them that I > will > > scold them if they do so... Sometimes I deceive > > them... I scare them but later show my affections > > too..." > > > > In the Gulbarg Society massacre, accused Madan > Chawal > > gives a first-hand account of how former Congress > MP > > Ehsan Jafri was hacked limb by limb and burned. He > > says Jafri offered them money in return for his > life. > > "We said yes. When he came out, we took the money > and > > pounced on him." > > > > > > Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from > any browser, without > > download. Go to > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Unfortunately, the balance of nature decrees that a super-abundance of dreams is paid for by a growing potential for nightmares. Love is an act of endless forgiveness, a tender look which becomes a habit. Peter Ustinov ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Sat Jan 19 08:06:11 2008 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 02:36:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] are these nationalists In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70801180954k43eb2f8cq336c0b3f09411894@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <703683.11741.qm@web8410.mail.in.yahoo.com> Do you really think the justice has been served in Gujarat? And no one's living in concentration camps any more? And this number of Kashmiri pundits killed... you folks always come up with a different number. Sometimes one of you says 3000, then 8000, then 40,000. Please decide it for once. I am not making fun of this - I know all the pain and suffering someone gets, but lets make a mockery of things by hurtling stones at each other. --- Pawan Durani wrote: > At least 6 years after the Gujarat riot , which > started after some > fundamentalists burnt alive scores of Hindu Pilgrims > returning from Ayodhya > , few people were convicted. > > Compare it with the case of Kashmiri Pandits , even > after 18 years , not > even a single person has been convicted in Kashmir > for killing of more than > 3000 Kashmiri pandits . Not to talk of rape and > arson against this > community. > > For that reason that the state is ruled by > camouflage Islamic fundamentalist > and Islamic groups are in majority. > > When will the justice be served to Kashmiri Pandits > ? At least in Modis > gujarat ....it has been served..... > > > > On 1/18/08, S.Fatima > wrote: > > > > Friends > > Look at these two news items for what's being > > discussed on this list right now: > > > > 12 convicted in Bilkis Bano rape case > > 18 Jan 2008, 1710 hrs IST,PTI > > MUMBAI: Twelve persons, including a police > official, > > were convicted by a special court here on Friday > in > > the Bilkis Bano gang-rape case related to the > > post-Godhra communal violence in Gujarat. > > > > > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/12_convicted_in_Bilkis_Bano_rape_case/articleshow/2711484.cms > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > 'Modi gave us a free run to do whatever we wanted' > > 26 Oct 2007, 0101 hrs IST,TNN > > > > NEW DELHI: "We made a complete rocket launcher > here... > > We distributed so many weapons, people were > shocked. > > We'd make them here and then test them." > > > > Here are some more such shocking 'testimonies': > > > > Suresh Richard, an accused in the Naroda Patiya > > episode in which over 200 Muslims were officially > > estimated to have been killed, said on camera that > > Modi visited the locality the same evening, > February > > 28, and thanked the perpetrators of the violence > > saying, "Aap dhanya ho... (You are blessed)." > > > > Rajendra Vyas, a senior VHP functionary who was on > the > > Sabarmati Express that was set on fire in Godhra, > > said, "The Muslims had played a one-day match with > > us... They have given us a target of 60... We have > to > > win this match at any cost, so don't stop till you > > have made 600 runs... Modi gave us a free run to > do > > whatever we wanted... The police were with us..." > > > > Babu Bajrangi, a Bajrang Dal activist who has been > in > > the news for blocking the carnage movie Parzania > from > > being screened in the state, revealed that police > > commissioner P C Pande, who has recently been > moved > > out of the DGP's post by the Election Commission, > had > > ordered that the 700-800 dead bodies at Naroda > Patiya > > be clandestinely picked up and dumped all over > > Ahmedabad. > > > > "The commissioner came that night and said that if > > there were so many dead at one place, it would > create > > trouble for him... After killing them, I felt like > > Maharana Pratap... We killed at will, turned the > place > > into Haldighati." > > > > Key witness in the Godhra case, Ranjitsingh Patel, > a > > petrol pump employee who deposed that he had sold > 140 > > litres of petrol to the accused on the eve of the > > Sabarmati episode, admits that he and his > colleague > > were both paid Rs 50,000 each by Noel Parmar, the > > chief investigating officer. > > > > "Noel saheb gave me fifty thousand, showed me a > > photograph and said I had to identify him." Two > BJP > > members, Murli Mulchandani and Kakul Pathak, who > > claimed to be eyewitnesses to the Godhra attack > and > > identified many of the accused, admit they were > not > > even at the station that fateful day. > > > > Mulchandani said: "I wasn't at the station, I was > > sleeping at home. But the police put me among the > > witnesses." Pathak said, "The police gave all the > > names. None of the eyewitnesses wrote their > > statements. The police did." > > > > Arvind Pandya, the government's counsel in the > ongoing > > proceedings before the Nanavati-Shah Commission > > probing the carnage, said that the accused had > nothing > > to fear from either of the retired judges. > "Nanavati > > is a clever man... He wants money... Of the two > > judges, Shah is intelligent... woh anpe wala hai > (he > > is our man)... he is sympathetic to us... Nanavati > is > > after money." > > > > Bharat Bhatt, a public prosecutor, said that he > was > > shielding the Hindu accused even as he was > supposed to > > be arguing against them. > > > > "I tell all the Hindus not to smile when they see > > me... not to say a word to me. I tell them that I > will > > scold them if they do so... Sometimes I deceive > > them... I scare them but later show my affections > > too..." > > > > In the Gulbarg Society massacre, accused Madan > Chawal > > gives a first-hand account of how former Congress > MP > > Ehsan Jafri was hacked limb by limb and burned. He > > says Jafri offered them money in return for his > life. > > "We said yes. When he came out, we took the money > and > > pounced on him." > > > > > > Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from > any browser, without > > download. Go to > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Sat Jan 19 08:18:14 2008 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:18:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70801172247q3489b45cuc800d30145169fbb@mail.gmail.com> References: <764558.96232.qm@web90411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <9C4C80D0-7B17-4F1B-BED1-153849FF66D1@pobox.com> <6b79f1a70801172247q3489b45cuc800d30145169fbb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Pawan, The problem with people like Chanchal and you is that you make statements that are not substantiated and/or explained in logic. Then when people question you, you conveniently and arrogantly turn away and refuse to explain/substantiate on the excuse that you differ in position and stand in opposition and/or are victims who have been victimized and will not be understood and therefore you have no responsibility whatsoever to explain/substantiate. This is exactly the attitude of some of the mullas that I have encountered. Now I seriously think that there is no Hindu-Muslim divide because when it comes to rigid thinking and arguing on the basis of illogic and false egotism, the mullas, you and your ilk float on the same side of the continuum. Zainab On Jan 18, 2008 12:17 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Kiran , > > My mail was specifically in response of Zainab's mail . Here Zainab was > discussing state opression and Kashmir . > > I dont think i need to elaborate more. > > Thanks for your understanding. > > Pawan > > > On 1/18/08, Kiran Jonnalagadda wrote: > > > > Dear Chanchal, > > > > I'm afraid you fail to convince me, and further, that I have no > > interest in this discussion and that therefore your energies are > > better expended with someone else. I am only interested in a > > clarification from Pawan. > > > > > > -- > > Kiran Jonnalagadda > > http://jace.seacrow.com/ > > > > > > > > On 18-Jan-08, at 12:07 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > > > Dear Kiran, > > > > > > I do not think I am away from the topic of generalization between > > > Religion and Anti-Nationalism.... > > > Please consider my following points: > > > > > > 1. What is nationalism? Is it not about the nation - who worships > > > the nation as Mother? > > > 2. What is Religion? Is it not about the texts that demands to be in > > > boundaries? Are Hindus actually a religious group? Why did Supreme > > > court declare that Hinduism is a way of life and not a religion? > > > > > > What I want to bring into picture is, It is Hinduism alone that > > > teaches Nationalism. Islam and Christianism are invaded religions. > > > Hindus have accepted them and Secularism was defined to allow them > > > to live with love. But they never came out of their religious > > > boundaries - they yet demands Hindus to convert. > > > > > > Muslims have discarded Vande Matram (Isn't it Anti-National). > > > Muslims do not protest against Terrorism (Isn't it Anti-National). > > > > > > Same people constitutes the nation, who constitutes the Religion. > > > For a Hindu, nation is everything - the biggest of all 'Mata'. Have > > > a Muslim ever said that India is bigger to them then Islam? > > > > > > This where these two entities are correlated. The generalization > > > lies only with Hindus today - this is a ground fact. What is shown > > > superfitially, I do not want to comment on that further. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Kiran Jonnalagadda > > > To: chanchal malviya > > > Cc: reader-list list > > > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 11:58:24 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at > > > Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > > > Dear Chanchal, > > > > > > I appreciate your concerns, but this is not a discussion I'm > > > interested in having. My only interest is in some clarity on Pawan's > > > generalisation between religion and anti-nationalism. > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Kiran Jonnalagadda > > > http://jace.seacrow.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > On 18-Jan-08, at 11:33 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > > > > > 1. Who are providing Arms to Naxals? > > > > 2. How many nations are they terrorizing? > > > > 3. What religious motivation guides them to do so? > > > > 4. Which religious book of Hindu has asked them to do so? > > > > > > > > 1. Which law of Islam or any Islamic country have punished any of > > > > these terrorists? > > > > 2. How many Mullahs have declared Fatwa agains even one terrorist? > > > > 3. How many Muslim road show have taken place again hundreds of > > > > Terrorist attacks? > > > > > > > > Even the Criminalized section of Hindus are not fighting in the name > > > > of religion... They do so because they are criminals and there are > > > > clear law to deal with them (not religion)... > > > > > > > > There is a difference... better to be understood... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: Kiran Jonnalagadda > > > > To: Pawan Durani > > > > Cc: reader-list list > > > > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 10:58:06 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at > > > > Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > > > > > On 18-Jan-08, at 10:33 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > > > I do not diagree that representatives of states sometimes do > > > misuse > > > > > their > > > > > authority . However the difference is that when a hindu is > > > > violated he > > > > > doesnt turn anti national. > > > > > > > > Pawan, > > > > > > > > Are you claiming that the supporters of the naxalite movement, LTTE > > > > and others who oppose the national apparatus are not Hindu? > > > > > > > > If you're not, could you be more specific? > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > > > > Search. > > > > > > > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Sat Jan 19 08:58:29 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 19:28:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? Message-ID: <794334.24835.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Why are you spreading the wrong news... The reality is the other way... Kashmir have more than 95% of population of Muslims (who will create hell for them)... Most of these Muslims are involved in transporting Smuggled goods (includes Drugs in majority) to the other parts of the country... The Police are all Muslims and they are with the crow (no law actually) - this was already shown by Zee News and Star News some time ago... Army is mostly operative in Jammu (which is still safe from the hands of Muslims dominance)... Army is there in Kashmir, but they are not that powerful as is highlighted.. There are many Terrorist Camps operative openly now in Kashmir... In fact, Kashmir is virtually out of control of India... and that is why Karra came ahead demanding separate currency for the state... Now, it is obvious that Muslims don't obey the law of the nation (they have their Quranic law), but when it comes to anything unlawful as per penal acts and that goes against Hindu, they start shouting... This is not good... Let there be a common law which both HIndus and Muslim should respect and only then there is meaning in talking Law or Crime for Muslims... ----- Original Message ---- From: gowhar fazli To: Pawan Durani ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 4:22:38 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? What has made you believe no one got punished in Kashmir. Kashmir is a virtual hell where the whole Muslim population is under imprisonment with torture and humiliation 24X7 for the last seventeen years. You have to be grossly insensitive not to notice this... despite the fact that migration of Pandits whether under state patronage or compulsion would not have been a cake-walk. In Kashmir, it is not just the miscreants who may have harmed Pandits or damaged public property or the intolerant 'fundamentalists' who are being punished... (though you will find many more times the Pandit population of such people rotting in jails, killed without impunity, tortured or 'disappeared'... ) Punishment in Kashmir is for everybody without exception (even the stooges of the state are not safe from itself). The biggest worry for you and me are the generations that are being brought up under these inhuman conditions while your kids grow up in decent neighbourhoods (I presume). With military to kick them around everyday, you cannot expect them to grow to love the state or YOU for not caring to change this. They will especially hate you for trying to privilege injustice faced by the group you cling on to so dearly, while justifying the injustice faced by those whom you would rather wish dead. In the name of militancy and fundamentalism the whole Kashmiri Muslim population has been successfully criminalized. Kashmiri Muslims are not faced with the choice of being 'patriotic' or 'unpatriotic'. This choice has already been made for them by you and the state. I seriously wonder if there is any point in telling you all this. --- Pawan Durani wrote: > At least 6 years after the Gujarat riot , which > started after some > fundamentalists burnt alive scores of Hindu Pilgrims > returning from Ayodhya > , few people were convicted. > > Compare it with the case of Kashmiri Pandits , even > after 18 years , not > even a single person has been convicted in Kashmir > for killing of more than > 3000 Kashmiri pandits . Not to talk of rape and > arson against this > community. > > For that reason that the state is ruled by > camouflage Islamic fundamentalist > and Islamic groups are in majority. > > When will the justice be served to Kashmiri Pandits > ? At least in Modis > gujarat ....it has been served..... > > > > On 1/18/08, S.Fatima > wrote: > > > > Friends > > Look at these two news items for what's being > > discussed on this list right now: > > > > 12 convicted in Bilkis Bano rape case > > 18 Jan 2008, 1710 hrs IST,PTI > > MUMBAI: Twelve persons, including a police > official, > > were convicted by a special court here on Friday > in > > the Bilkis Bano gang-rape case related to the > > post-Godhra communal violence in Gujarat. > > > > > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/12_convicted_in_Bilkis_Bano_rape_case/articleshow/2711484.cms > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > 'Modi gave us a free run to do whatever we wanted' > > 26 Oct 2007, 0101 hrs IST,TNN > > > > NEW DELHI: "We made a complete rocket launcher > here... > > We distributed so many weapons, people were > shocked. > > We'd make them here and then test them." > > > > Here are some more such shocking 'testimonies': > > > > Suresh Richard, an accused in the Naroda Patiya > > episode in which over 200 Muslims were officially > > estimated to have been killed, said on camera that > > Modi visited the locality the same evening, > February > > 28, and thanked the perpetrators of the violence > > saying, "Aap dhanya ho... (You are blessed)." > > > > Rajendra Vyas, a senior VHP functionary who was on > the > > Sabarmati Express that was set on fire in Godhra, > > said, "The Muslims had played a one-day match with > > us... They have given us a target of 60... We have > to > > win this match at any cost, so don't stop till you > > have made 600 runs... Modi gave us a free run to > do > > whatever we wanted... The police were with us..." > > > > Babu Bajrangi, a Bajrang Dal activist who has been > in > > the news for blocking the carnage movie Parzania > from > > being screened in the state, revealed that police > > commissioner P C Pande, who has recently been > moved > > out of the DGP's post by the Election Commission, > had > > ordered that the 700-800 dead bodies at Naroda > Patiya > > be clandestinely picked up and dumped all over > > Ahmedabad. > > > > "The commissioner came that night and said that if > > there were so many dead at one place, it would > create > > trouble for him... After killing them, I felt like > > Maharana Pratap... We killed at will, turned the > place > > into Haldighati." > > > > Key witness in the Godhra case, Ranjitsingh Patel, > a > > petrol pump employee who deposed that he had sold > 140 > > litres of petrol to the accused on the eve of the > > Sabarmati episode, admits that he and his > colleague > > were both paid Rs 50,000 each by Noel Parmar, the > > chief investigating officer. > > > > "Noel saheb gave me fifty thousand, showed me a > > photograph and said I had to identify him." Two > BJP > > members, Murli Mulchandani and Kakul Pathak, who > > claimed to be eyewitnesses to the Godhra attack > and > > identified many of the accused, admit they were > not > > even at the station that fateful day. > > > > Mulchandani said: "I wasn't at the station, I was > > sleeping at home. But the police put me among the > > witnesses." Pathak said, "The police gave all the > > names. None of the eyewitnesses wrote their > > statements. The police did." > > > > Arvind Pandya, the government's counsel in the > ongoing > > proceedings before the Nanavati-Shah Commission > > probing the carnage, said that the accused had > nothing > > to fear from either of the retired judges. > "Nanavati > > is a clever man... He wants money... Of the two > > judges, Shah is intelligent... woh anpe wala hai > (he > > is our man)... he is sympathetic to us... Nanavati > is > > after money." > > > > Bharat Bhatt, a public prosecutor, said that he > was > > shielding the Hindu accused even as he was > supposed to > > be arguing against them. > > > > "I tell all the Hindus not to smile when they see > > me... not to say a word to me. I tell them that I > will > > scold them if they do so... Sometimes I deceive > > them... I scare them but later show my affections > > too..." > > > > In the Gulbarg Society massacre, accused Madan > Chawal > > gives a first-hand account of how former Congress > MP > > Ehsan Jafri was hacked limb by limb and burned. He > > says Jafri offered them money in return for his > life. > > "We said yes. When he came out, we took the money > and > > pounced on him." > > > > > > Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from > any browser, without > > download. Go to > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Unfortunately, the balance of nature decrees that a super-abundance of dreams is paid for by a growing potential for nightmares. Love is an act of endless forgiveness, a tender look which becomes a habit. Peter Ustinov ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Sat Jan 19 09:09:20 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 19:39:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] are these nationalists Message-ID: <121203.36808.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The numbers can be easily undestood... What was the percentage of Hindus in Kashmir around 50 years ago (It was nearly 25%) - what is the population now (not even 5%)... The missing population is 20%... So, it comes to millions.... Of which around 80% have migrated... The remaining 20% were massacred... The numbers you can calculate... I am talking about the data published by operating bodies of government and also by Census of British India Empire... and you can get this through Internet also... Jammu still holds around 25% Hindus... Which state of Hindu have done this to Muslims? And which country or state of Muslims have done good to Hindus? Please do not mislead from reality... Please do not talk Gujarat and if you do, please first talk about GODHRA... The very ground reality is - THERE IS NO TOLERANCE IN ISLAM.. ----- Original Message ---- From: S.Fatima To: Pawan Durani Cc: sarai ; chanchal malviya ; Partha Dasgupta ; Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् ; we wi ; Rahul Asthana Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 8:06:11 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] are these nationalists Do you really think the justice has been served in Gujarat? And no one's living in concentration camps any more? And this number of Kashmiri pundits killed... you folks always come up with a different number. Sometimes one of you says 3000, then 8000, then 40,000. Please decide it for once. I am not making fun of this - I know all the pain and suffering someone gets, but lets make a mockery of things by hurtling stones at each other. --- Pawan Durani wrote: > At least 6 years after the Gujarat riot , which > started after some > fundamentalists burnt alive scores of Hindu Pilgrims > returning from Ayodhya > , few people were convicted. > > Compare it with the case of Kashmiri Pandits , even > after 18 years , not > even a single person has been convicted in Kashmir > for killing of more than > 3000 Kashmiri pandits . Not to talk of rape and > arson against this > community. > > For that reason that the state is ruled by > camouflage Islamic fundamentalist > and Islamic groups are in majority. > > When will the justice be served to Kashmiri Pandits > ? At least in Modis > gujarat ....it has been served..... > > > > On 1/18/08, S.Fatima > wrote: > > > > Friends > > Look at these two news items for what's being > > discussed on this list right now: > > > > 12 convicted in Bilkis Bano rape case > > 18 Jan 2008, 1710 hrs IST,PTI > > MUMBAI: Twelve persons, including a police > official, > > were convicted by a special court here on Friday > in > > the Bilkis Bano gang-rape case related to the > > post-Godhra communal violence in Gujarat. > > > > > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/12_convicted_in_Bilkis_Bano_rape_case/articleshow/2711484.cms > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > 'Modi gave us a free run to do whatever we wanted' > > 26 Oct 2007, 0101 hrs IST,TNN > > > > NEW DELHI: "We made a complete rocket launcher > here... > > We distributed so many weapons, people were > shocked. > > We'd make them here and then test them." > > > > Here are some more such shocking 'testimonies': > > > > Suresh Richard, an accused in the Naroda Patiya > > episode in which over 200 Muslims were officially > > estimated to have been killed, said on camera that > > Modi visited the locality the same evening, > February > > 28, and thanked the perpetrators of the violence > > saying, "Aap dhanya ho... (You are blessed)." > > > > Rajendra Vyas, a senior VHP functionary who was on > the > > Sabarmati Express that was set on fire in Godhra, > > said, "The Muslims had played a one-day match with > > us... They have given us a target of 60... We have > to > > win this match at any cost, so don't stop till you > > have made 600 runs... Modi gave us a free run to > do > > whatever we wanted... The police were with us..." > > > > Babu Bajrangi, a Bajrang Dal activist who has been > in > > the news for blocking the carnage movie Parzania > from > > being screened in the state, revealed that police > > commissioner P C Pande, who has recently been > moved > > out of the DGP's post by the Election Commission, > had > > ordered that the 700-800 dead bodies at Naroda > Patiya > > be clandestinely picked up and dumped all over > > Ahmedabad. > > > > "The commissioner came that night and said that if > > there were so many dead at one place, it would > create > > trouble for him... After killing them, I felt like > > Maharana Pratap... We killed at will, turned the > place > > into Haldighati." > > > > Key witness in the Godhra case, Ranjitsingh Patel, > a > > petrol pump employee who deposed that he had sold > 140 > > litres of petrol to the accused on the eve of the > > Sabarmati episode, admits that he and his > colleague > > were both paid Rs 50,000 each by Noel Parmar, the > > chief investigating officer. > > > > "Noel saheb gave me fifty thousand, showed me a > > photograph and said I had to identify him." Two > BJP > > members, Murli Mulchandani and Kakul Pathak, who > > claimed to be eyewitnesses to the Godhra attack > and > > identified many of the accused, admit they were > not > > even at the station that fateful day. > > > > Mulchandani said: "I wasn't at the station, I was > > sleeping at home. But the police put me among the > > witnesses." Pathak said, "The police gave all the > > names. None of the eyewitnesses wrote their > > statements. The police did." > > > > Arvind Pandya, the government's counsel in the > ongoing > > proceedings before the Nanavati-Shah Commission > > probing the carnage, said that the accused had > nothing > > to fear from either of the retired judges. > "Nanavati > > is a clever man... He wants money... Of the two > > judges, Shah is intelligent... woh anpe wala hai > (he > > is our man)... he is sympathetic to us... Nanavati > is > > after money." > > > > Bharat Bhatt, a public prosecutor, said that he > was > > shielding the Hindu accused even as he was > supposed to > > be arguing against them. > > > > "I tell all the Hindus not to smile when they see > > me... not to say a word to me. I tell them that I > will > > scold them if they do so... Sometimes I deceive > > them... I scare them but later show my affections > > too..." > > > > In the Gulbarg Society massacre, accused Madan > Chawal > > gives a first-hand account of how former Congress > MP > > Ehsan Jafri was hacked limb by limb and burned. He > > says Jafri offered them money in return for his > life. > > "We said yes. When he came out, we took the money > and > > pounced on him." > > > > > > Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from > any browser, without > > download. Go to > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Sat Jan 19 09:14:35 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 19:44:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 Message-ID: <236270.38115.qm@web90411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The same applies to you... You also produce things without any authentication... I requested to stop talking about issues.. and start a culture of talking about Solutions... I called to produce ideas and strategies that can help the nation... there is no reply... The same issues (Issues that is against Muslims) are again and again dropped in the network... The intention is clear from this.. and hence I am hard to answer... And mind it, if we go to the basics of Muslims (the Quran).. the reality would be even dangerour... which never applies for Hindus... But it is not good to go into those things... I have ever repeated and say again - Let the Muslims do one Road Show against Terrorists, if they think they belong to this Nation... ----- Original Message ---- From: Zainab Bawa To: Pawan Durani Cc: reader-list list Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 8:18:14 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 Dear Pawan, The problem with people like Chanchal and you is that you make statements that are not substantiated and/or explained in logic. Then when people question you, you conveniently and arrogantly turn away and refuse to explain/substantiate on the excuse that you differ in position and stand in opposition and/or are victims who have been victimized and will not be understood and therefore you have no responsibility whatsoever to explain/substantiate. This is exactly the attitude of some of the mullas that I have encountered. Now I seriously think that there is no Hindu-Muslim divide because when it comes to rigid thinking and arguing on the basis of illogic and false egotism, the mullas, you and your ilk float on the same side of the continuum. Zainab On Jan 18, 2008 12:17 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Kiran , > > My mail was specifically in response of Zainab's mail . Here Zainab was > discussing state opression and Kashmir . > > I dont think i need to elaborate more. > > Thanks for your understanding. > > Pawan > > > On 1/18/08, Kiran Jonnalagadda wrote: > > > > Dear Chanchal, > > > > I'm afraid you fail to convince me, and further, that I have no > > interest in this discussion and that therefore your energies are > > better expended with someone else. I am only interested in a > > clarification from Pawan. > > > > > > -- > > Kiran Jonnalagadda > > http://jace.seacrow.com/ > > > > > > > > On 18-Jan-08, at 12:07 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > > > Dear Kiran, > > > > > > I do not think I am away from the topic of generalization between > > > Religion and Anti-Nationalism.... > > > Please consider my following points: > > > > > > 1. What is nationalism? Is it not about the nation - who worships > > > the nation as Mother? > > > 2. What is Religion? Is it not about the texts that demands to be in > > > boundaries? Are Hindus actually a religious group? Why did Supreme > > > court declare that Hinduism is a way of life and not a religion? > > > > > > What I want to bring into picture is, It is Hinduism alone that > > > teaches Nationalism. Islam and Christianism are invaded religions. > > > Hindus have accepted them and Secularism was defined to allow them > > > to live with love. But they never came out of their religious > > > boundaries - they yet demands Hindus to convert. > > > > > > Muslims have discarded Vande Matram (Isn't it Anti-National). > > > Muslims do not protest against Terrorism (Isn't it Anti-National). > > > > > > Same people constitutes the nation, who constitutes the Religion. > > > For a Hindu, nation is everything - the biggest of all 'Mata'. Have > > > a Muslim ever said that India is bigger to them then Islam? > > > > > > This where these two entities are correlated. The generalization > > > lies only with Hindus today - this is a ground fact. What is shown > > > superfitially, I do not want to comment on that further. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Kiran Jonnalagadda > > > To: chanchal malviya > > > Cc: reader-list list > > > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 11:58:24 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at > > > Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > > > Dear Chanchal, > > > > > > I appreciate your concerns, but this is not a discussion I'm > > > interested in having. My only interest is in some clarity on Pawan's > > > generalisation between religion and anti-nationalism. > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Kiran Jonnalagadda > > > http://jace.seacrow.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > On 18-Jan-08, at 11:33 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > > > > > 1. Who are providing Arms to Naxals? > > > > 2. How many nations are they terrorizing? > > > > 3. What religious motivation guides them to do so? > > > > 4. Which religious book of Hindu has asked them to do so? > > > > > > > > 1. Which law of Islam or any Islamic country have punished any of > > > > these terrorists? > > > > 2. How many Mullahs have declared Fatwa agains even one terrorist? > > > > 3. How many Muslim road show have taken place again hundreds of > > > > Terrorist attacks? > > > > > > > > Even the Criminalized section of Hindus are not fighting in the name > > > > of religion... They do so because they are criminals and there are > > > > clear law to deal with them (not religion)... > > > > > > > > There is a difference... better to be understood... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: Kiran Jonnalagadda > > > > To: Pawan Durani > > > > Cc: reader-list list > > > > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 10:58:06 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to stir up Govt. at > > > > Delhi - Campaign against Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > > > > > On 18-Jan-08, at 10:33 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > > > I do not diagree that representatives of states sometimes do > > > misuse > > > > > their > > > > > authority . However the difference is that when a hindu is > > > > violated he > > > > > doesnt turn anti national. > > > > > > > > Pawan, > > > > > > > > Are you claiming that the supporters of the naxalite movement, LTTE > > > > and others who oppose the national apparatus are not Hindu? > > > > > > > > If you're not, could you be more specific? > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > > > > Search. > > > > > > > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Jan 19 11:08:28 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 11:08:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] are these nationalists In-Reply-To: <703683.11741.qm@web8410.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <6b79f1a70801180954k43eb2f8cq336c0b3f09411894@mail.gmail.com> <703683.11741.qm@web8410.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801182138s4e057006p945445a68e4abcbc@mail.gmail.com> Dear Fatima Ji , NamaskAr If you would have read my mail without any prejudice , you would have observed that I had written that atleast few people have been *CONVICTED* in Gujarat. Muslim ruled Kashmir has created a history that no killers have been convicted so far , and those Islamic fanatics have been responsible for kilings of Hindus to start with.Ironically the killers like Yasin Malik is being compared with Gandhi by *intellectuals* like you . God Bless Regards Pawan On 1/19/08, S.Fatima wrote: > > Do you really think the justice has been served in > Gujarat? And no one's living in concentration camps > any more? > > And this number of Kashmiri pundits killed... you > folks always come up with a different number. > Sometimes one of you says 3000, then 8000, then > 40,000. Please decide it for once. I am not making fun > of this - I know all the pain and suffering someone > gets, but lets make a mockery of things by hurtling > stones at each other. > > > --- Pawan Durani wrote: > > > At least 6 years after the Gujarat riot , which > > started after some > > fundamentalists burnt alive scores of Hindu Pilgrims > > returning from Ayodhya > > , few people were convicted. > > > > Compare it with the case of Kashmiri Pandits , even > > after 18 years , not > > even a single person has been convicted in Kashmir > > for killing of more than > > 3000 Kashmiri pandits . Not to talk of rape and > > arson against this > > community. > > > > For that reason that the state is ruled by > > camouflage Islamic fundamentalist > > and Islamic groups are in majority. > > > > When will the justice be served to Kashmiri Pandits > > ? At least in Modis > > gujarat ....it has been served..... > > > > > > > > On 1/18/08, S.Fatima > > wrote: > > > > > > Friends > > > Look at these two news items for what's being > > > discussed on this list right now: > > > > > > 12 convicted in Bilkis Bano rape case > > > 18 Jan 2008, 1710 hrs IST,PTI > > > MUMBAI: Twelve persons, including a police > > official, > > > were convicted by a special court here on Friday > > in > > > the Bilkis Bano gang-rape case related to the > > > post-Godhra communal violence in Gujarat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/12_convicted_in_Bilkis_Bano_rape_case/articleshow/2711484.cms > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > > > 'Modi gave us a free run to do whatever we wanted' > > > 26 Oct 2007, 0101 hrs IST,TNN > > > > > > NEW DELHI: "We made a complete rocket launcher > > here... > > > We distributed so many weapons, people were > > shocked. > > > We'd make them here and then test them." > > > > > > Here are some more such shocking 'testimonies': > > > > > > Suresh Richard, an accused in the Naroda Patiya > > > episode in which over 200 Muslims were officially > > > estimated to have been killed, said on camera that > > > Modi visited the locality the same evening, > > February > > > 28, and thanked the perpetrators of the violence > > > saying, "Aap dhanya ho... (You are blessed)." > > > > > > Rajendra Vyas, a senior VHP functionary who was on > > the > > > Sabarmati Express that was set on fire in Godhra, > > > said, "The Muslims had played a one-day match with > > > us... They have given us a target of 60... We have > > to > > > win this match at any cost, so don't stop till you > > > have made 600 runs... Modi gave us a free run to > > do > > > whatever we wanted... The police were with us..." > > > > > > Babu Bajrangi, a Bajrang Dal activist who has been > > in > > > the news for blocking the carnage movie Parzania > > from > > > being screened in the state, revealed that police > > > commissioner P C Pande, who has recently been > > moved > > > out of the DGP's post by the Election Commission, > > had > > > ordered that the 700-800 dead bodies at Naroda > > Patiya > > > be clandestinely picked up and dumped all over > > > Ahmedabad. > > > > > > "The commissioner came that night and said that if > > > there were so many dead at one place, it would > > create > > > trouble for him... After killing them, I felt like > > > Maharana Pratap... We killed at will, turned the > > place > > > into Haldighati." > > > > > > Key witness in the Godhra case, Ranjitsingh Patel, > > a > > > petrol pump employee who deposed that he had sold > > 140 > > > litres of petrol to the accused on the eve of the > > > Sabarmati episode, admits that he and his > > colleague > > > were both paid Rs 50,000 each by Noel Parmar, the > > > chief investigating officer. > > > > > > "Noel saheb gave me fifty thousand, showed me a > > > photograph and said I had to identify him." Two > > BJP > > > members, Murli Mulchandani and Kakul Pathak, who > > > claimed to be eyewitnesses to the Godhra attack > > and > > > identified many of the accused, admit they were > > not > > > even at the station that fateful day. > > > > > > Mulchandani said: "I wasn't at the station, I was > > > sleeping at home. But the police put me among the > > > witnesses." Pathak said, "The police gave all the > > > names. None of the eyewitnesses wrote their > > > statements. The police did." > > > > > > Arvind Pandya, the government's counsel in the > > ongoing > > > proceedings before the Nanavati-Shah Commission > > > probing the carnage, said that the accused had > > nothing > > > to fear from either of the retired judges. > > "Nanavati > > > is a clever man... He wants money... Of the two > > > judges, Shah is intelligent... woh anpe wala hai > > (he > > > is our man)... he is sympathetic to us... Nanavati > > is > > > after money." > > > > > > Bharat Bhatt, a public prosecutor, said that he > > was > > > shielding the Hindu accused even as he was > > supposed to > > > be arguing against them. > > > > > > "I tell all the Hindus not to smile when they see > > > me... not to say a word to me. I tell them that I > > will > > > scold them if they do so... Sometimes I deceive > > > them... I scare them but later show my affections > > > too..." > > > > > > In the Gulbarg Society massacre, accused Madan > > Chawal > > > gives a first-hand account of how former Congress > > MP > > > Ehsan Jafri was hacked limb by limb and burned. He > > > says Jafri offered them money in return for his > > life. > > > "We said yes. When he came out, we took the money > > and > > > pounced on him." > > > > > > > > > Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from > > any browser, without > > > download. Go to > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php/ > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click > away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Jan 19 11:16:07 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 11:16:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? In-Reply-To: <302033.36819.qm@web60619.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6b79f1a70801180954k43eb2f8cq336c0b3f09411894@mail.gmail.com> <302033.36819.qm@web60619.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801182146g5509bae3p925554cec542ff41@mail.gmail.com> Dear Fazli , NamaskAr You are right . There is no point in narrating the stories to me . For I have been a victim of Islamic terrorism in Kashmir . If Kashmiri muslims are suffering today, which I do not disagree , it is because of their own stand. They welcomed back the Jihadis from Pakistan with sweets . They glorified *terrorism*. They did not utter a word when Kashmiri Hindus were killed. Even after so many years they still did not mind giving a rousing rception to terrorists like Bitta Karate who has admitted to selective killings of 40 Kashmiri pandits. Fazli , do you still think there is a point telling me stories. God Bless Regards Pawan PS : I have some good friends still in Kashmir , and the reason is that they admit to what went wrong and not one who try to distort history. On 1/19/08, gowhar fazli wrote: > > What has made you believe no one got punished in > Kashmir. Kashmir is a virtual hell where the whole > Muslim population is under imprisonment with torture > and humiliation 24X7 for the last seventeen years. > You have to be grossly insensitive not to notice > this... despite the fact that migration of Pandits > whether under state patronage or compulsion would not > have been a cake-walk. In Kashmir, it is not just the > miscreants who may have harmed Pandits or damaged > public property or the intolerant 'fundamentalists' > who are being punished... (though you will find many > more times the Pandit population of such people > rotting in jails, killed without impunity, tortured or > 'disappeared'... ) Punishment in Kashmir is for > everybody without exception (even the stooges of the > state are not safe from itself). > > The biggest worry for you and me are the generations > that are being brought up under these inhuman > conditions while your kids grow up in decent > neighbourhoods (I presume). With military to kick > them around everyday, you cannot expect them to grow > to love the state or YOU for not caring to change > this. They will especially hate you for trying to > privilege injustice faced by the group you cling on to > so dearly, while justifying the injustice faced by > those whom you would rather wish dead. > > In the name of militancy and fundamentalism the whole > Kashmiri Muslim population has been successfully > criminalized. Kashmiri Muslims are not faced with the > choice of being 'patriotic' or 'unpatriotic'. This > choice has already been made for them by you and the > state. > > I seriously wonder if there is any point in telling > you all this. > > > --- Pawan Durani wrote: > > > At least 6 years after the Gujarat riot , which > > started after some > > fundamentalists burnt alive scores of Hindu Pilgrims > > returning from Ayodhya > > , few people were convicted. > > > > Compare it with the case of Kashmiri Pandits , even > > after 18 years , not > > even a single person has been convicted in Kashmir > > for killing of more than > > 3000 Kashmiri pandits . Not to talk of rape and > > arson against this > > community. > > > > For that reason that the state is ruled by > > camouflage Islamic fundamentalist > > and Islamic groups are in majority. > > > > When will the justice be served to Kashmiri Pandits > > ? At least in Modis > > gujarat ....it has been served..... > > > > > > > > On 1/18/08, S.Fatima > > wrote: > > > > > > Friends > > > Look at these two news items for what's being > > > discussed on this list right now: > > > > > > 12 convicted in Bilkis Bano rape case > > > 18 Jan 2008, 1710 hrs IST,PTI > > > MUMBAI: Twelve persons, including a police > > official, > > > were convicted by a special court here on Friday > > in > > > the Bilkis Bano gang-rape case related to the > > > post-Godhra communal violence in Gujarat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/12_convicted_in_Bilkis_Bano_rape_case/articleshow/2711484.cms > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > > > 'Modi gave us a free run to do whatever we wanted' > > > 26 Oct 2007, 0101 hrs IST,TNN > > > > > > NEW DELHI: "We made a complete rocket launcher > > here... > > > We distributed so many weapons, people were > > shocked. > > > We'd make them here and then test them." > > > > > > Here are some more such shocking 'testimonies': > > > > > > Suresh Richard, an accused in the Naroda Patiya > > > episode in which over 200 Muslims were officially > > > estimated to have been killed, said on camera that > > > Modi visited the locality the same evening, > > February > > > 28, and thanked the perpetrators of the violence > > > saying, "Aap dhanya ho... (You are blessed)." > > > > > > Rajendra Vyas, a senior VHP functionary who was on > > the > > > Sabarmati Express that was set on fire in Godhra, > > > said, "The Muslims had played a one-day match with > > > us... They have given us a target of 60... We have > > to > > > win this match at any cost, so don't stop till you > > > have made 600 runs... Modi gave us a free run to > > do > > > whatever we wanted... The police were with us..." > > > > > > Babu Bajrangi, a Bajrang Dal activist who has been > > in > > > the news for blocking the carnage movie Parzania > > from > > > being screened in the state, revealed that police > > > commissioner P C Pande, who has recently been > > moved > > > out of the DGP's post by the Election Commission, > > had > > > ordered that the 700-800 dead bodies at Naroda > > Patiya > > > be clandestinely picked up and dumped all over > > > Ahmedabad. > > > > > > "The commissioner came that night and said that if > > > there were so many dead at one place, it would > > create > > > trouble for him... After killing them, I felt like > > > Maharana Pratap... We killed at will, turned the > > place > > > into Haldighati." > > > > > > Key witness in the Godhra case, Ranjitsingh Patel, > > a > > > petrol pump employee who deposed that he had sold > > 140 > > > litres of petrol to the accused on the eve of the > > > Sabarmati episode, admits that he and his > > colleague > > > were both paid Rs 50,000 each by Noel Parmar, the > > > chief investigating officer. > > > > > > "Noel saheb gave me fifty thousand, showed me a > > > photograph and said I had to identify him." Two > > BJP > > > members, Murli Mulchandani and Kakul Pathak, who > > > claimed to be eyewitnesses to the Godhra attack > > and > > > identified many of the accused, admit they were > > not > > > even at the station that fateful day. > > > > > > Mulchandani said: "I wasn't at the station, I was > > > sleeping at home. But the police put me among the > > > witnesses." Pathak said, "The police gave all the > > > names. None of the eyewitnesses wrote their > > > statements. The police did." > > > > > > Arvind Pandya, the government's counsel in the > > ongoing > > > proceedings before the Nanavati-Shah Commission > > > probing the carnage, said that the accused had > > nothing > > > to fear from either of the retired judges. > > "Nanavati > > > is a clever man... He wants money... Of the two > > > judges, Shah is intelligent... woh anpe wala hai > > (he > > > is our man)... he is sympathetic to us... Nanavati > > is > > > after money." > > > > > > Bharat Bhatt, a public prosecutor, said that he > > was > > > shielding the Hindu accused even as he was > > supposed to > > > be arguing against them. > > > > > > "I tell all the Hindus not to smile when they see > > > me... not to say a word to me. I tell them that I > > will > > > scold them if they do so... Sometimes I deceive > > > them... I scare them but later show my affections > > > too..." > > > > > > In the Gulbarg Society massacre, accused Madan > > Chawal > > > gives a first-hand account of how former Congress > > MP > > > Ehsan Jafri was hacked limb by limb and burned. He > > > says Jafri offered them money in return for his > > life. > > > "We said yes. When he came out, we took the money > > and > > > pounced on him." > > > > > > > > > Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from > > any browser, without > > > download. Go to > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php/ > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > > subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > Unfortunately, the balance of nature decrees that a super-abundance of > dreams is paid for by a growing potential for nightmares. > > Love is an act of endless forgiveness, a tender look which becomes a > habit. > > Peter Ustinov > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > From waliarifi3 at gmail.com Sat Jan 19 14:18:44 2008 From: waliarifi3 at gmail.com (Wali Arifi) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 14:18:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70801182146g5509bae3p925554cec542ff41@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70801180954k43eb2f8cq336c0b3f09411894@mail.gmail.com> <302033.36819.qm@web60619.mail.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70801182146g5509bae3p925554cec542ff41@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4fcaee300801190048j5a06421q906f83e80e6ceb13@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many lessons. One being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate figures when it comes to human loss. But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the loss. In fact accuracy adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. In essence multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to take refuge in propaganda and cloth the truth with it. Mr Durrani in his post has said: "….for killing of more than 3000 Kashmiri pandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this community." I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What is Mr Durrani trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of killings? Is he helping the community by exaggerating the figure? According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri pandits were killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. It has to be understood that multiplying figures is dangerously counterproductive for those who call themselves as the champions and custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget about the use of words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing and so on... Kashmir's history will be written by those who have dreamed of a 'just Kashmir'. Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or trying to create it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into what it has actually been in all practice...* *Majoritarianism. Regards, Wali On Jan 19, 2008 11:16 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Fazli , > > NamaskAr > > You are right . There is no point in narrating the stories to me . For I > have been a victim of Islamic terrorism in Kashmir . > > If Kashmiri muslims are suffering today, which I do not disagree , it is > because of their own stand. They welcomed back the Jihadis from Pakistan > with sweets . They glorified *terrorism*. They did not utter a word when > Kashmiri Hindus were killed. > > Even after so many years they still did not mind giving a rousing rception > to terrorists like Bitta Karate who has admitted to selective killings of > 40 > Kashmiri pandits. > > Fazli , do you still think there is a point telling me stories. > > God Bless > > Regards > > Pawan > > PS : I have some good friends still in Kashmir , and the reason is that > they > admit to what went wrong and not one who try to distort history. > > > On 1/19/08, gowhar fazli wrote: > > > > What has made you believe no one got punished in > > Kashmir. Kashmir is a virtual hell where the whole > > Muslim population is under imprisonment with torture > > and humiliation 24X7 for the last seventeen years. > > You have to be grossly insensitive not to notice > > this... despite the fact that migration of Pandits > > whether under state patronage or compulsion would not > > have been a cake-walk. In Kashmir, it is not just the > > miscreants who may have harmed Pandits or damaged > > public property or the intolerant 'fundamentalists' > > who are being punished... (though you will find many > > more times the Pandit population of such people > > rotting in jails, killed without impunity, tortured or > > 'disappeared'... ) Punishment in Kashmir is for > > everybody without exception (even the stooges of the > > state are not safe from itself). > > > > The biggest worry for you and me are the generations > > that are being brought up under these inhuman > > conditions while your kids grow up in decent > > neighbourhoods (I presume). With military to kick > > them around everyday, you cannot expect them to grow > > to love the state or YOU for not caring to change > > this. They will especially hate you for trying to > > privilege injustice faced by the group you cling on to > > so dearly, while justifying the injustice faced by > > those whom you would rather wish dead. > > > > In the name of militancy and fundamentalism the whole > > Kashmiri Muslim population has been successfully > > criminalized. Kashmiri Muslims are not faced with the > > choice of being 'patriotic' or 'unpatriotic'. This > > choice has already been made for them by you and the > > state. > > > > I seriously wonder if there is any point in telling > > you all this. > > > > > > --- Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > At least 6 years after the Gujarat riot , which > > > started after some > > > fundamentalists burnt alive scores of Hindu Pilgrims > > > returning from Ayodhya > > > , few people were convicted. > > > > > > Compare it with the case of Kashmiri Pandits , even > > > after 18 years , not > > > even a single person has been convicted in Kashmir > > > for killing of more than > > > 3000 Kashmiri pandits . Not to talk of rape and > > > arson against this > > > community. > > > > > > For that reason that the state is ruled by > > > camouflage Islamic fundamentalist > > > and Islamic groups are in majority. > > > > > > When will the justice be served to Kashmiri Pandits > > > ? At least in Modis > > > gujarat ....it has been served..... > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/18/08, S.Fatima > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Friends > > > > Look at these two news items for what's being > > > > discussed on this list right now: > > > > > > > > 12 convicted in Bilkis Bano rape case > > > > 18 Jan 2008, 1710 hrs IST,PTI > > > > MUMBAI: Twelve persons, including a police > > > official, > > > > were convicted by a special court here on Friday > > > in > > > > the Bilkis Bano gang-rape case related to the > > > > post-Godhra communal violence in Gujarat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/12_convicted_in_Bilkis_Bano_rape_case/articleshow/2711484.cms > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > 'Modi gave us a free run to do whatever we wanted' > > > > 26 Oct 2007, 0101 hrs IST,TNN > > > > > > > > NEW DELHI: "We made a complete rocket launcher > > > here... > > > > We distributed so many weapons, people were > > > shocked. > > > > We'd make them here and then test them." > > > > > > > > Here are some more such shocking 'testimonies': > > > > > > > > Suresh Richard, an accused in the Naroda Patiya > > > > episode in which over 200 Muslims were officially > > > > estimated to have been killed, said on camera that > > > > Modi visited the locality the same evening, > > > February > > > > 28, and thanked the perpetrators of the violence > > > > saying, "Aap dhanya ho... (You are blessed)." > > > > > > > > Rajendra Vyas, a senior VHP functionary who was on > > > the > > > > Sabarmati Express that was set on fire in Godhra, > > > > said, "The Muslims had played a one-day match with > > > > us... They have given us a target of 60... We have > > > to > > > > win this match at any cost, so don't stop till you > > > > have made 600 runs... Modi gave us a free run to > > > do > > > > whatever we wanted... The police were with us..." > > > > > > > > Babu Bajrangi, a Bajrang Dal activist who has been > > > in > > > > the news for blocking the carnage movie Parzania > > > from > > > > being screened in the state, revealed that police > > > > commissioner P C Pande, who has recently been > > > moved > > > > out of the DGP's post by the Election Commission, > > > had > > > > ordered that the 700-800 dead bodies at Naroda > > > Patiya > > > > be clandestinely picked up and dumped all over > > > > Ahmedabad. > > > > > > > > "The commissioner came that night and said that if > > > > there were so many dead at one place, it would > > > create > > > > trouble for him... After killing them, I felt like > > > > Maharana Pratap... We killed at will, turned the > > > place > > > > into Haldighati." > > > > > > > > Key witness in the Godhra case, Ranjitsingh Patel, > > > a > > > > petrol pump employee who deposed that he had sold > > > 140 > > > > litres of petrol to the accused on the eve of the > > > > Sabarmati episode, admits that he and his > > > colleague > > > > were both paid Rs 50,000 each by Noel Parmar, the > > > > chief investigating officer. > > > > > > > > "Noel saheb gave me fifty thousand, showed me a > > > > photograph and said I had to identify him." Two > > > BJP > > > > members, Murli Mulchandani and Kakul Pathak, who > > > > claimed to be eyewitnesses to the Godhra attack > > > and > > > > identified many of the accused, admit they were > > > not > > > > even at the station that fateful day. > > > > > > > > Mulchandani said: "I wasn't at the station, I was > > > > sleeping at home. But the police put me among the > > > > witnesses." Pathak said, "The police gave all the > > > > names. None of the eyewitnesses wrote their > > > > statements. The police did." > > > > > > > > Arvind Pandya, the government's counsel in the > > > ongoing > > > > proceedings before the Nanavati-Shah Commission > > > > probing the carnage, said that the accused had > > > nothing > > > > to fear from either of the retired judges. > > > "Nanavati > > > > is a clever man... He wants money... Of the two > > > > judges, Shah is intelligent... woh anpe wala hai > > > (he > > > > is our man)... he is sympathetic to us... Nanavati > > > is > > > > after money." > > > > > > > > Bharat Bhatt, a public prosecutor, said that he > > > was > > > > shielding the Hindu accused even as he was > > > supposed to > > > > be arguing against them. > > > > > > > > "I tell all the Hindus not to smile when they see > > > > me... not to say a word to me. I tell them that I > > > will > > > > scold them if they do so... Sometimes I deceive > > > > them... I scare them but later show my affections > > > > too..." > > > > > > > > In the Gulbarg Society massacre, accused Madan > > > Chawal > > > > gives a first-hand account of how former Congress > > > MP > > > > Ehsan Jafri was hacked limb by limb and burned. He > > > > says Jafri offered them money in return for his > > > life. > > > > "We said yes. When he came out, we took the money > > > and > > > > pounced on him." > > > > > > > > > > > > Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from > > > any browser, without > > > > download. Go to > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php/ > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > > the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > > the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > > > subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the balance of nature decrees that a super-abundance of > > dreams is paid for by a growing potential for nightmares. > > > > Love is an act of endless forgiveness, a tender look which becomes a > > habit. > > > > Peter Ustinov > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 19 14:46:50 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 01:16:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Women Message-ID: <411844.9395.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> It is ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to the notice of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against abuse directed at them. Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI) was the one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and obscene manner. Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would have to say to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights" (sic). Kshmendra Kaul --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From waliarifi3 at gmail.com Sat Jan 19 15:13:23 2008 From: waliarifi3 at gmail.com (Wali Arifi) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 15:13:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? In-Reply-To: <4fcaee300801190048j5a06421q906f83e80e6ceb13@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70801180954k43eb2f8cq336c0b3f09411894@mail.gmail.com> <302033.36819.qm@web60619.mail.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70801182146g5509bae3p925554cec542ff41@mail.gmail.com> <4fcaee300801190048j5a06421q906f83e80e6ceb13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4fcaee300801190143o5b18ac5cu5d5438d560bb3960@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many lessons. One being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate figures when it comes to human loss. But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the loss. In fact accuracy adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. In essence multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to take refuge in propaganda and cloth the truth with it. Mr Durrani in his post has said: "….for killing of more than 3000 Kashmiri pandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this community." I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What is Mr Durrani trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of killings? Is he helping the community by exaggerating the figure? According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri pandits were killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. It has to be understood that multiplying figures is dangerously counterproductive for those who call themselves as the champions and custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget about the use of words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing and so on... Kashmir's history will be written by those who have dreamed of a 'just Kashmir'. Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or trying to create it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into what it has actually been in all practice... **Majoritarianism. Regards, Wali From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Jan 19 15:17:41 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 15:17:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? In-Reply-To: <4fcaee300801190048j5a06421q906f83e80e6ceb13@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70801180954k43eb2f8cq336c0b3f09411894@mail.gmail.com> <302033.36819.qm@web60619.mail.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70801182146g5509bae3p925554cec542ff41@mail.gmail.com> <4fcaee300801190048j5a06421q906f83e80e6ceb13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801190147u51c89f8dj583331cefe7b6ddf@mail.gmail.com> Dear Wali Arif , Congratulations for admitting that 208 Kashmiri Pandits were killed. If you believe in Govt records , then the Govt has no record of total number of Kashmiri Pandit having been killed in Kashmir. And the total figure as per the Govt for number of persons killed in Kashmir post 1989 is 14000 + . I have a Govt document to prove that. Now for my figure of 3000 Kashmiri Pandits killed in Kashmir , I personally have list of 1800 + people who were killed . There were expectedly many many others who did not even lodge a complaint and you know police were hand in glove with terrorists. Infact arms were transferred in Kashmir using state govt ambulences.Kashmiri Pandits were not even treated in hospitals, for their killing was considered just ....as it was a work of Jihadis. And if yiu still keep wondering , i am not surprised for you too belong to the same set of school. I do not need to tell you which one , you know that. God Bless Regards Pawan Durani On 1/19/08, Wali Arifi wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many lessons. One > being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate figures when it comes to > human loss. > > > > But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the loss. In fact > accuracy adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. In essence > multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to take refuge in propaganda > and cloth the truth with it. > > > > Mr Durrani in his post has said: "….for killing of more than 3000 Kashmiri > pandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this community." > > > > I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What is Mr Durrani > trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of killings? Is he > helping the community by exaggerating the figure? > > > > According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri pandits were > killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. > > > > It has to be understood that multiplying figures is dangerously > counterproductive for those who call themselves as the champions and > custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget about the use of > words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing and so on... > > > > Kashmir's history will be written by those who have dreamed of a 'just > Kashmir'. > > > > Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or trying to > create it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into what it has > actually been in all practice... **Majoritarianism. > > Regards, > > Wali > > > On Jan 19, 2008 11:16 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Dear Fazli , > > > > NamaskAr > > > > You are right . There is no point in narrating the stories to me . For I > > > > have been a victim of Islamic terrorism in Kashmir . > > > > If Kashmiri muslims are suffering today, which I do not disagree , it is > > because of their own stand. They welcomed back the Jihadis from Pakistan > > with sweets . They glorified *terrorism*. They did not utter a word when > > > > Kashmiri Hindus were killed. > > > > Even after so many years they still did not mind giving a rousing > > rception > > to terrorists like Bitta Karate who has admitted to selective killings > > of 40 > > Kashmiri pandits. > > > > Fazli , do you still think there is a point telling me stories. > > > > God Bless > > > > Regards > > > > Pawan > > > > PS : I have some good friends still in Kashmir , and the reason is that > > they > > admit to what went wrong and not one who try to distort history. > > > > > > On 1/19/08, gowhar fazli wrote: > > > > > > What has made you believe no one got punished in > > > Kashmir. Kashmir is a virtual hell where the whole > > > Muslim population is under imprisonment with torture > > > and humiliation 24X7 for the last seventeen years. > > > You have to be grossly insensitive not to notice > > > this... despite the fact that migration of Pandits > > > whether under state patronage or compulsion would not > > > have been a cake-walk. In Kashmir, it is not just the > > > miscreants who may have harmed Pandits or damaged > > > public property or the intolerant 'fundamentalists' > > > who are being punished... (though you will find many > > > more times the Pandit population of such people > > > rotting in jails, killed without impunity, tortured or > > > 'disappeared'... ) Punishment in Kashmir is for > > > everybody without exception (even the stooges of the > > > state are not safe from itself). > > > > > > The biggest worry for you and me are the generations > > > that are being brought up under these inhuman > > > conditions while your kids grow up in decent > > > neighbourhoods (I presume). With military to kick > > > them around everyday, you cannot expect them to grow > > > to love the state or YOU for not caring to change > > > this. They will especially hate you for trying to > > > privilege injustice faced by the group you cling on to > > > so dearly, while justifying the injustice faced by > > > those whom you would rather wish dead. > > > > > > In the name of militancy and fundamentalism the whole > > > Kashmiri Muslim population has been successfully > > > criminalized. Kashmiri Muslims are not faced with the > > > choice of being 'patriotic' or 'unpatriotic'. This > > > choice has already been made for them by you and the > > > state. > > > > > > I seriously wonder if there is any point in telling > > > you all this. > > > > > > > > > --- Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > At least 6 years after the Gujarat riot , which > > > > started after some > > > > fundamentalists burnt alive scores of Hindu Pilgrims > > > > returning from Ayodhya > > > > , few people were convicted. > > > > > > > > Compare it with the case of Kashmiri Pandits , even > > > > after 18 years , not > > > > even a single person has been convicted in Kashmir > > > > for killing of more than > > > > 3000 Kashmiri pandits . Not to talk of rape and > > > > arson against this > > > > community. > > > > > > > > For that reason that the state is ruled by > > > > camouflage Islamic fundamentalist > > > > and Islamic groups are in majority. > > > > > > > > When will the justice be served to Kashmiri Pandits > > > > ? At least in Modis > > > > gujarat ....it has been served..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/18/08, S.Fatima > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Friends > > > > > Look at these two news items for what's being > > > > > discussed on this list right now: > > > > > > > > > > 12 convicted in Bilkis Bano rape case > > > > > 18 Jan 2008, 1710 hrs IST,PTI > > > > > MUMBAI: Twelve persons, including a police > > > > official, > > > > > were convicted by a special court here on Friday > > > > in > > > > > the Bilkis Bano gang-rape case related to the > > > > > post-Godhra communal violence in Gujarat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/12_convicted_in_Bilkis_Bano_rape_case/articleshow/2711484.cms > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > 'Modi gave us a free run to do whatever we wanted' > > > > > 26 Oct 2007, 0101 hrs IST,TNN > > > > > > > > > > NEW DELHI: "We made a complete rocket launcher > > > > here... > > > > > We distributed so many weapons, people were > > > > shocked. > > > > > We'd make them here and then test them." > > > > > > > > > > Here are some more such shocking 'testimonies': > > > > > > > > > > Suresh Richard, an accused in the Naroda Patiya > > > > > episode in which over 200 Muslims were officially > > > > > estimated to have been killed, said on camera that > > > > > Modi visited the locality the same evening, > > > > February > > > > > 28, and thanked the perpetrators of the violence > > > > > saying, "Aap dhanya ho... (You are blessed)." > > > > > > > > > > Rajendra Vyas, a senior VHP functionary who was on > > > > the > > > > > Sabarmati Express that was set on fire in Godhra, > > > > > said, "The Muslims had played a one-day match with > > > > > us... They have given us a target of 60... We have > > > > to > > > > > win this match at any cost, so don't stop till you > > > > > have made 600 runs... Modi gave us a free run to > > > > do > > > > > whatever we wanted... The police were with us..." > > > > > > > > > > Babu Bajrangi, a Bajrang Dal activist who has been > > > > in > > > > > the news for blocking the carnage movie Parzania > > > > from > > > > > being screened in the state, revealed that police > > > > > commissioner P C Pande, who has recently been > > > > moved > > > > > out of the DGP's post by the Election Commission, > > > > had > > > > > ordered that the 700-800 dead bodies at Naroda > > > > Patiya > > > > > be clandestinely picked up and dumped all over > > > > > Ahmedabad. > > > > > > > > > > "The commissioner came that night and said that if > > > > > there were so many dead at one place, it would > > > > create > > > > > trouble for him... After killing them, I felt like > > > > > Maharana Pratap... We killed at will, turned the > > > > place > > > > > into Haldighati." > > > > > > > > > > Key witness in the Godhra case, Ranjitsingh Patel, > > > > a > > > > > petrol pump employee who deposed that he had sold > > > > 140 > > > > > litres of petrol to the accused on the eve of the > > > > > Sabarmati episode, admits that he and his > > > > colleague > > > > > were both paid Rs 50,000 each by Noel Parmar, the > > > > > chief investigating officer. > > > > > > > > > > "Noel saheb gave me fifty thousand, showed me a > > > > > photograph and said I had to identify him." Two > > > > BJP > > > > > members, Murli Mulchandani and Kakul Pathak, who > > > > > claimed to be eyewitnesses to the Godhra attack > > > > and > > > > > identified many of the accused, admit they were > > > > not > > > > > even at the station that fateful day. > > > > > > > > > > Mulchandani said: "I wasn't at the station, I was > > > > > sleeping at home. But the police put me among the > > > > > witnesses." Pathak said, "The police gave all the > > > > > names. None of the eyewitnesses wrote their > > > > > statements. The police did." > > > > > > > > > > Arvind Pandya, the government's counsel in the > > > > ongoing > > > > > proceedings before the Nanavati-Shah Commission > > > > > probing the carnage, said that the accused had > > > > nothing > > > > > to fear from either of the retired judges. > > > > "Nanavati > > > > > is a clever man... He wants money... Of the two > > > > > judges, Shah is intelligent... woh anpe wala hai > > > > (he > > > > > is our man)... he is sympathetic to us... Nanavati > > > > is > > > > > after money." > > > > > > > > > > Bharat Bhatt, a public prosecutor, said that he > > > > was > > > > > shielding the Hindu accused even as he was > > > > supposed to > > > > > be arguing against them. > > > > > > > > > > "I tell all the Hindus not to smile when they see > > > > > me... not to say a word to me. I tell them that I > > > > will > > > > > scold them if they do so... Sometimes I deceive > > > > > them... I scare them but later show my affections > > > > > too..." > > > > > > > > > > In the Gulbarg Society massacre, accused Madan > > > > Chawal > > > > > gives a first-hand account of how former Congress > > > > MP > > > > > Ehsan Jafri was hacked limb by limb and burned. He > > > > > says Jafri offered them money in return for his > > > > life. > > > > > "We said yes. When he came out, we took the money > > > > and > > > > > pounced on him." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from > > > > any browser, without > > > > > download. Go to > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php/ > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > > > the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > > > the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > > > > subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the balance of nature decrees that a super-abundance of > > > dreams is paid for by a growing potential for nightmares. > > > > > > Love is an act of endless forgiveness, a tender look which becomes a > > > habit. > > > > > > Peter Ustinov > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 19 17:34:13 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 04:04:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] road-show to prove you belong to the nation In-Reply-To: <236270.38115.qm@web90411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <209147.94392.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Chanchal I fail to understand, why should only Muslims need to to a roadshow to prove they belong to the nation. Show me one ordinary Indian Muslim who is happy about terrorism today (even from Kashmir). For them to do a roadshow against terrorism means that they first identify with it (for being a Muslim) and then condemn it. I condemn terrorism as much as you do, but what will I achieve with a roadshow. I think we need to work together against this menace if we condemn it together. And to do that, we need to first reduce our own differences and prejudices. People are dropping topics on this conversation list because they realize they are not going to change each other's minds however hard they try. Some people seem to have joined this list saying "hey look, here is a list of psuedo-secularists, Islam-lovers and anti-nationalists. Lets hurl some stones at them". Is that true or not? If you come with that kind of attitude, no one's going to take you seriously. But if are serious about discussing our current problems and finding possible solutions, why can't we start by first respecting each other and working together. Most of the dialogues of this kind end up in a chicken-n-egg situation here. No one can prove who started it all, or who has been the worst victim/culprit, so there is no point in continuing to hurl stones at each other. We seem to be wasting our time and leading to more and more hatred. But during these debates, I often wonder how would it be if all these people were sitting together, across the table, more purposefully. I am sure the debate would lead to something more concrete - at least a different sort of trust/mistrust if you could see the person you are talking to. To me, some of these internet debates sound too hollow, since there is no accountability. Why doesn't anyone think of a road show to discuss how to resolve these issues together? (its sad that the real road-show, that of the Manipuri women, with which the debate started, has got completely sidelined) Yousuf --- chanchal malviya wrote: > The same applies to you... You also produce things > without any authentication... > I requested to stop talking about issues.. and start > a culture of talking about Solutions... > I called to produce ideas and strategies that can > help the nation... > > there is no reply... The same issues (Issues that is > against Muslims) are again and again dropped in the > network... > The intention is clear from this.. and hence I am > hard to answer... > > And mind it, if we go to the basics of Muslims (the > Quran).. the reality would be even dangerour... > which never applies for Hindus... > But it is not good to go into those things... > > I have ever repeated and say again - Let the Muslims > do one Road Show against Terrorists, if they think > they belong to this Nation... > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Zainab Bawa > To: Pawan Durani > Cc: reader-list list > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 8:18:14 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to > stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against > Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From javedmasoo at gmail.com Sat Jan 19 18:00:16 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:00:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Message-ID: India's Islam by Arun Nair Firstly, I must apologise if this article smacks of an impolite urgency and prescriptive-ness. I mean not to be arrogant, but as someone addressing you on a matter of deep concern to us all, I felt that there was little room for ceremonial apologies before every sentence. Also, as an Indian middle-class Hindu who grew up in the Babri-masjid 90s, it is easy for me to say some of the things I say here. Secondly, I address you, the reader, as an Indian citizen, not as a saintly Kabir or Gandhi preaching love for humanity. Our collective interests are being threatened by communal forces from within and without. WE MUST ACT. We must not merely lament about our respective versions of helplessnesses and others' faults. We are free today because India's greatest generation shook off the ghosts that bedevilled them, and took action to protect our interests. I implore you to continue that legacy. Thirdly, while I will go into what in my opinion are highly plausible theories of Indian nationhood and nationalism, my primary aim here is not to write any treatise on politics or sociology, but to protect our rights to belong equally to India – our common ancestral land – as Indians, and as free, dignified humans. Fourthly, my ideas will be presented largely based on first principles, also known as common-sense. My thesis is this: India must boldly assert its claim on Islamic civilisation in the subcontinent. That is the key to end our communal woes. This does not mean that India must become Islamic, or that Indian Muslims must be somehow Hinduised. The idea, instead, is to campaign relentlessly for India's Islamic civilisational authenticity. In the Indian psyche, Pakistan stands for Islam. Sadly for us and admittedly in a weaker form, Islam is also synonymous with Pakistan and everything Pakistani. This wouldn't have been so bad if Pakistan wasn't, well, un-Indian. We must use every tool at our disposal as a people to destroy the entrenched idea of Pakistani ownership of subcontinental Islam from within India. More importantly, this idea must be attacked from without it, because that is where it originates. Our chief weapon to eliminate Islam-Pakistan hyphenation from the subcontinent will be an authentic claim: the centre of Islamic civilisation in South Asia has always been undivided India, and after partition, India is its natural primary heir. The fact that a few million Muslims left India during partition to settle in our erstwhile outlying provinces doesn't change this. Neither does the fact that the Indian people chose a progressive, secular, democratic polity for their republic. In our minds and in the world's view, subcontinental Islam is under Pakistani occupation. The historical Indo-centric nature of subcontinental Islam should be used to throw off this psychological yoke. I urge Indians to rally together once again as our greatest generation did to protect our collective interests as the people of India. I urge friends of India all over the world to join us. Both in terms of geography and spirit, Islam in the subcontinent that coexisted and flourished alongside Indic cultures, has always been more Indian than Pakistani. If any single country represents subcontinental Islam as it historically was, it is India. Not Pakistan. India's Mughals. India's Qutub Minar, Gol Gumaz, and Taj Mahal. India's Kabir. India's Tipu Sultan, Shah Jahan, Akbar, and, why not, Aurangazeb. India's Urdu. India's Ghalib and Khusro. India's Delhi, Lucknow, Mysore, Hyderabad, Malabar, and Agra. Good history has to be deliberately written The people of India inherited thousands of years of history and associated baggage that we didn't really ask for. Keep in mind though that history is not a dead object - it is unfurling even as you read this. We may not be able to change what happened in India 200 years ago. But 200 years from now when people look back, they will see the Indian history that our generation wrote. It becomes then our duty, both as Indians and as sensible humans, to write it well. It is a great privilege to deliberately be able to write a part of something grand like the history of India. The first generation of Indians who did a coordinated job of writing our history was the one that won us our independence – our "freedom-generation". They could have attempted to write their Indian chapter any way they wanted to. We could have had a dark, China-style communism, for instance. But, given the Indian context, the freedom-generation chose the most egalitarian, elegant, and humanist theme they could come up with: a secular, liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, that takes its strength from its inherent pluralism and its inheritance of one of mankind's greatest civilisations. The freedom-generation's legacy for us is the deliberate and intelligent manner in which they forged an Indian national identity. Thanks to their efforts, our nationality is a solid concept. An Indian from Karnataka has a robust nationalistic bond with Indians say from Punjab, Gujarat, Assam, or Delhi. Regardless of what languages we speak, we all recognise Marathi, Tamil, Bengali and Telugu as Indian languages – ancestral assets that all Indians collectively own. It is a mistake, however, to think that the nation-building task they began is complete. Indian nationalism is not an idea frozen in time, but an evolving one. We, the successors of India's freedom-generation, must exercise our prerogative to define its finer contours and bring in new ideas to enrich it. Furthermore, we have an obligation to both our founding fathers and India's posterity to do this while being true to our quintessential Indian-ness, the just, egalitarian nature of our country as embodied in our constitution. Given that India's situation is not as pressing as it once was, new nationalist leaders – giants of the stature of Mahatma Gandhi, Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Subhash Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh, Jawaharlal Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad or Vallabhai Patel – may be difficult to emerge. There is no need to though. We succeeded them, and we must take this task upon ourselves. The freedom-generation watches over us in the form of our fraternity as Indians which they moulded at a great cost, and our constitution. Indian Nationalism - the idea of Indian brotherhood Amidst all this noisy consternation of Taslima Nasrin, Babri-masjid, BJP-Congress etc., its easy to lose sight of the really big pictures. Consider, for instance, this question: what really is the essence of Indian nationalism? Why do we all feel so closely tied to India and to each other? My answer is that, to put it simply, without the land we call India, Indians either have no identity, or very anaemic identities. All Indians share this same curious relation to India. When we are born to the same human mother, we are brothers. Our constitution formed by our freedom-generation explicitly asserts fraternity among the Indian people. Fraternity – brotherhood. In what sense are we brothers? Indians are brothers in the sense that the motherland that birthed my identity, also birthed yours. India is our ancestral land, and we should be proud of everything associated with it. Everything in India, its religions, its good and its bad, its languages, its glories and struggles, its rivers, its emperors, its heroes and villains, everything – is intricately weaved into our consciousnesses of who we are, where we come from, what our place in this world is, and how other humans see us. Without that identity, we are crippled. Ours is no ordinary brotherhood. Indian people didn't come into being merely a few centuries ago. We are an ancient civilisation, and what we have is a civlisational brotherhood – a bond arising from all of our belonging to the civilisation that unfolded in the same land, India. That brotherhood was formally declared through the constitution in 1949, but it existed much before that. Before our greatest generation gave it a concrete wording in the 20th century, it was well moulded in the crucible that is our land, in the fire of the previous several dozen, if not more, centuries. Every country of the world has stories that define their national essences. What is the most essential feature of Indian nationalism? It is our Indian identity – our being tied to India, and our civilisational brotherhood to each other in being bonded so. All Indians, regardless of their religion or language, has this bond with India and with each other. Indians must pause for a while and think why our anthem's going over our landmarks is so emotive. Or why Hindu-Muslim-Sikh-Christian insignia are powerful. Or why merely thinking of our history, or our Kerala, Karnataka, Maharashtra, UP, Punjab and Bengal moves all of us equally. It's because they remind us of our organic ties to India, and the brotherhood that we have with each other. This natural bond given to us by our glorious and at times bloody history is important. If we don't uphold this bond with the ferocity that our greatest generation did, if we don't use it to protect our common interests, our country will remain weak. Our country's nature What is the nature of our country? What does it mean for something to be Indian? For one, if all of us Indians could get together today and declare in one voice that India stands for certain values, then that would be an authoritative statement. India is what Indians say it is. If, say, the people of the then-Indian civilisation – Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Sikhs, and Jains – had made such a statement 400 years ago and preserved its spirit through centuries, that would have probably have been one of the greatest Indian texts. If you will recall, a very similar event actually did happen in 1949, when the founding fathers of the Indian republic adopted, enacted, and gave to ourselves - the sovereign people of India - our constitution. The preamble reads, "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure to all its citizens: JUSTICE, social, economic and political; LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among them all FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and integrity of the Nation. IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION." In an absolute sense, the values of justice, liberty, and equality have an intuitive appeal to all humans everywhere. However, the formidable authority of our constitution comes from the crushed but proud people who paid a very high price for our right to live as equals and as dignified humans in India. We must take their word for what India is – they must have known and dreamt quite a bit about it. India's greatest generation definitely realised that divisivism, self-doubt, and other demons from our past would haunt the republic they formed. Which is why the constitution is important. It helps us protect our country from ourselves. The Constitution. Indian Nationalism. How we will defend India. Those who doubt the moral power of our freedom-generation, our constitutional ethos, and Indian nationalism need only look at Pakistan, which renounced all these in its attempts not to be seen as Indian. Pakistan's leaders, in trying to defend their divisve national philosophy, forced the most horrible bankruptcy on its people. Rather than using Indian nationalism and the constitution to tackle our communal issues, I am appalled at the general trend to merely lament that India is on its way to being declared an non-secular state - the hundreds of millions of Indians fully intent on preventing this notwithstanding. Pakistan-style Islamism, Ummah-isation of Hinduism, alienation of Indian Muslims There are three major trends in India today that are relevant to our topic. Firstly, India has very serious conflicts of interest with Pakistan. We have gone to war with that country several times. Its society has issues with radicalisation and a general religious orthodoxy. Its regimes have relentlessly attacked India's internal fault-lines over the past few decades in the name of Islam. Tens of thousands of Indian soldiers have died defending our country against them. It is distinctly un-Indian and anti-Indian. Secondly, Hinduism is, for the lack of a better word, Ummah-ising, and this at times takes horrifyingly militant forms. I, given my personal biases, am all for Hindu solidarity and abolishing pseudo-secularism. However, an argument for Hindu-solidarity should not be allowed to take the form of an un-Indian religionalism that goes against the very spirit of India. Thirdly, Indian Muslims feel alienated from their own country. In India, Pakistan is synonymous with Islam. Unfortunately, Islam is also weakly synonymous with Pakistan. This has significantly undermined Indian Muslims' political standing in India vis-a-vis their fellow citizens. The havoc all this has wreaked on our society must not be ignored. India was home to one of humanity's greatest Islamic cultures for well over 1000 years. It is not, by any means, a dead part of our culture - nearly 160 million Indians are Muslims, several national icons are Muslims, mosques and Islamic architecture litter the country, and Muslim holidays are shared by all. And yet, to a lot of Indians, Islam doesn't feel Indian, but Pakistani. Despite their respective religious majorities, it is odd that Buddhism doesn't feel Sri Lankan, or Hinduism itself, Nepali. The partition of India and secular India's deprivation of its Islamic authenticity Has anyone thought what has actually happened here? Why is it that in India, an ancient civilisational land which has a unique Islamic culture just like Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, Islam is seen as somehow foreign? That is not because of Islam's being inconsistent with India – 1000 years and more of history and our combined freedom struggle should have proven this by now. During partition, founders of Pakistan expropriated the subcontinent's Islamic identity for defining their nation, Pakistan. Pakistan's struggle to keep its ideology alive has robbed us of our Islamic authenticity. India's secular nature not-withstanding, the ardour with which Pakistan argued itsideology and pushed its exclusivist national philosophy within the larger Islamic community ensured that it gained some traction in the Indian society. Pakistan's military conflicts with "Hindu" India only amplified this. It only takes a few of decades of intense activity for a new Zeitgeist to take root in a society. Consider denazification of Germany, China's turn into capitalism, and India's own economic liberalisation. 30 years – that is all it takes for a young generation to grow up shaped by a pervasive ideology. Though quite smaller than India, Pakistan is by no means a tiny nation. It is the world's 6th most populous country, one of its major economies, and a prominent player during the cold war. One cannot find fault with it - Pakistan had to defend its national philosophy. It has expended a tremendous amount of national effort over the last 60 years in achieving a strong association between subcontinental Islam and itself. They have succeeded splendidly. Islam in the subcontinent today is seen as prominently Pakistani and India's secular fabric warped by that perception. Pakistan is an Islamic nation - this somehow gives them a stronger claim on everything Islamic in the subcontinent. The world simply does not recognise India's Islamic authenticity, and neither do many Indians within. India continues to be associated primarily with Hinduism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, but not Islam. Does religious brotherhood entirely negate the organic bonds a human has to his ancestral land and its history, and to his fellow humans who share the same bonds as him? I don't really know. What I do know is that this is not the principle on which the Indian republic was founded, and its definitely not an Indian value. Religious supremacism and breaking up of Indian people are un-Indian philosophies. It goes against the very spirit of our freedom struggle, nationalism, and our constitution. Indians must remember that new Pakistani generations do not even have the same right to speak for India's Muslims that their earlier generations might have had. Indian democracy has proven this unnecessary anyway. Indo-Pak culture-drift and attempts at an unnatural bonhomie There is a delusion among the political class and Indian people that our shared past can be used to achieve friendly relations between India and Pakistan. My view is that in doing so, we are only reinforcing the internal Islam-Pakistan hyphenation. When historical developments asunder a people, over a period of time the newly formed groups drift increasingly farther from one another. Once upon time, Myanmar and Sri Lanka were part of India, just like Pakistan and Bangladesh. Afghanistan was part of several Indian empires. Today, though at a national level we have very cordial relations, they are distinctly unfamiliar to us. Such a natural drift has definitely taken place between India and Pakistan. The strongest bond between us that keeps us in each others' national memories is not anything positive that we share, but the acrid legacy of partition. It's hard for me as an Indian, for instance, to imagine such an Islamism taking hold of Pakistan if it were under Akbar's rule. That is, if it were under genuinely Indian-style Islamic rule. I am not suggesting we should actively pursue enmity with Pakistan or vilify it. However, its being clumped together with Indian Muslims is simply not healthy for India. What has Pakistan's 'leadership' of subcontinental Muslims, its advocacy of religious supremacism within, and its enmity with India effectively accomplished? It has robbed India of its genuine Islamic authenticity in the world's eyes, and caused non-Muslim Indians to reject the culture of an un-Indian enemy. Pakistan has highlighted Indian Muslims' being Islamic and consistently de-emphasized their being Indian. Pursuing an unnatural bonhomie with Pakistan and stressing our similarities with them will only weaken our case for our differences, which are very real. To uphold our national interest, we must assert and amplify these differences. Replace Islam-Pakistan hyphenation with Islam-India hyphenation in the subcontinent I urge Indians to spearhead a change of perception of Islam in the subcontinent. Anything that prevents Indian Muslims' fully asserting their claim on India as Indian citizens is against the national interest. The strong association in India between subcontinental Islam and the present day un-Indian Pakistan must go. It is tempting to claim that all South Asian countries share Islamic civilization equally. It may be polite and civil to do so, and it may even have some historical merit, but it's a weak claim for our purposes. It doesn't have the necessary boldness and self-conviction to be effective. It also doesn't forcefully argue for India's Islamic authenticity. Our aim is to end Islam-Pakistan hyphenation for the welfare of a billion humans, not to be fair observers of history. We must hence push the strongest nationalistic claim possible: Islam in the subcontinent is Indian, and it always has been. Indian Islam never 'went' anywhere – it is alive and well amidst us. Our nationalism and constitution are guarantees that it will thrive if Pakistan would let go of it. When the world thinks of Hinduism in South Asia, it thinks of India. Sikhism, it thinks of India. Buddhism, India. When it thinks of Islam in South Asia, it must think of India. Everyone in the subcontinent will be better off. Everyone. The idea that Islam in the subcontinent is primarily Indian can gain currency only through a concerted nationalist campaign. No apologies should be made for such a movement. No one need be convinced of its proponents' "patriotism". The obvious worthiness of the cause, its truth, and its urgency are justifications enough. What ideas might such a campaign seek to make current? The countries in our region share an intertwined, messy history. We have a lot in common - languages, religions, culture, quirks - all part of our common and colourful heritage. However, if our historical and religious assets must be divided amongst us, then the worthiest inheritor of Islamic heritage in the subcontinent can only be India. Not Pakistan, not Bangladesh, not Sri Lanka, not Myanmar, not Nepal. India is the only nation that has been true to the historical spirit of Indian Islam – that of flourishing alongside other Indic faiths in India. Slay our demons ourselves Has it ever struck you that in our country, we have a vicious circularity of the following sort: we feel dismayed that the country/political class/leadership has done nothing for us; a form of apathy and resignation sets in; the country/political class/leadership continues to do nothing; we feel increasingly more dismayed. We are a democracy. We individually must act. Things won't happen if we don't. I urge Indians to assert India's secularism and nationalism to fight alienation of the Muslim community from Indian mainstream. This battle is the easier one to win – there are hundreds of millions of reasonable Indians, the Indian constitution, the liberal press, the legacy of our freedom-generation, and truth and justice on our side. I also urge Indians to fight Pakistani supremacy of subcontinental Islam from the outside. That is the root of all our problems. That is the key battle in India's war against communalism. We must learn to say, "Thanks, but no thanks. I understand what you mean, but this is not really true" to anyone who stresses commonalities of any sort in the subcontinent. Who will go first? Based on the concept of ownership of our destiny, what are the answers to these questions: "But how can non-Muslims claim that Islam in the subcontinent is Indian when it is represented by Pakistan and Indian Muslims themselves imply so?" "How can Indian Muslims make the Indo-centric claim when there is a genuine sense of their alienation in India and rest of Indian society accuses them of siding with Pakistan. We cannot move against Pakstani Muslims. There is a lot in common between us." I don't know! I am definitely going, in my own way. That I know. I will not ever treat any Indian by as automatically allied with a foreign, inimical power. I will continue making people aware of the need to end the subcontinental Islam-Pakistan association and replace it with Islam-India. We shall NOT vilify. We shall have faith. Indians should stop vilifying each other. Not because it would be saintly to do so, but because it only weakens our unity. Our nationalism and our constitution are solid stuff. Our greatest generation did their job well. If we must challenge our fellow Indians, invoke these instruments. Face with stead-fast stoicism any slurs, any accusations of you being an anti-Indian Muslim or a communal Hindutvawadi. Let the diatribe die down. Repeat your arguments invoking our nationalism, constitution, and your reasoning again. Do not ask anyone to 'prove' his or her patriotism. It's demeaning to do so. Satyameva Jayate – truth alone triumphs. If you are right, you will win. Have faith in our country and in every Indians' goodness and genuine attachment to their land. Augmenting India's ideological basis Earlier I mentioned that our work on Indian nationhood is not a frozen process, but a continuing one. We can and must correct any earlier mistakes that continue to torment India's communal harmony. If the greatest challenge the freedom-generation faced was ending the British rule and forming a stable republic, the greatest challenge before us is to take back leadership of subcontinental Islam from Pakistan. Our challenge is to do this without sacrificing India's secular nature. To tackle our new communal challenges in the 21st century, I propose the following: 1. Secularism will continue to remain the Indian union's lynch pin. It should not, however, require any particular religious group's giving up their right to assert religious solidarity. We should genuinely address any concerns about hypocrisy in the name of secularism. 2. India is a mature concept, and we should actively use it to tackle the challenges before us. Secularism is an integral part of our nationhood and a historically irreversible development. It follows that religionalism – wherever it is practised – is distinctly un-Indian. Within India, it is also anti-Indian in the sense that they weaken India and goes against its spirit. 3. The natural heir to Islamic civilisation in the subcontinent is India. Subcontinental Islam has always been an Indian phenomenon. Pakistan's oft-reinforced association with Indian Muslims must be destroyed. 4. India's brotherhood with its neighbours is dying. Soon there will be an Indian generation which doesn't have a single Indian born before partition. Every single human in the subcontinent would have been born in the countries as they existed after partition. The continuing attempts to maintain an unnatural bonhomie with India's hostile neighbours is not a tenable project - Pakistan has moved too far away from what was once India. Indian Muslims. India's Islam. A shockingly large amount of our national energy is wasted in countering the effects of Islam-Pakistan hyphenation in the subcontinent. The solution is simple. Reclaim the part of Indian identity that was robbed of us some 60 years back. If India is Hindu, then for similar reasons, it is also Buddhist, Sikh, Christian - and Islamic. Purported authority over sub-continental Islam by other entities in the subcontinent is an outrageous farce that must be ended right away. There is no obligation to do this meekly. India doesn't have merely a substantial claim or merely an equal claim. It simply has more right to subcontinental Islamic heritage than anyone else by an overwhelmingly large margin, period. We must use it for our national well-being. Who can assert subcontinental Islam's Indian nature boldly, loudly, without an iota of self-doubt or hesitation? Who needs this to be done most urgently? Who suffers from a deprivation of their right to belong to India the most? The Hindus? Sikhs? Buddhists? Christians? Jains? Clearly not. Who else? The Indian Muslims. The others are left distinctly poorer and their country's communal harmony stressed, but their Indian genuineness is unquestioned within India and the world over. There is not going to be an un-Indian leader-nation for India's Sikhs, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists and Christians in our neighbourhood any time soon. http://indianmuslims.in/indias-islam/ From oishiksircar at gmail.com Sat Jan 19 23:09:19 2008 From: oishiksircar at gmail.com (OISHIK SIRCAR) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 11:39:19 -0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome In-Reply-To: <411844.9395.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <411844.9395.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <62cba67a0801190939u6e0443cwa12bd21e6ecf3a65@mail.gmail.com> Kshmendra: That was not meant to be an abuse at all... it was meant to suggest a means to experience anal stimulation that can be orgasmic... I have tried it... so suggested that Vedavati do the same... you could also do the same... actually all the HINDUS who are obsessing about nationalism on this listserv should do the same... they'll realise that there are better and more enjoyable -- and of course more useful things in life to do than spew virulent intolerance. Suggesting means to experience pleasure is not abuse, I'm sure you'll agree. And I am overwhelmed with the kind of response my comments have attracted -- that's the way to keep the Hindu bullshitters engaged I can clearly see. If you find this mail to be crude and obscene as well -- I would've made my point. Cheers... Oishik On Jan 19, 2008 3:16 AM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > It is ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to the notice > of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against abuse directed at > them. > > Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI) was the > one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and obscene manner. > > Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would have to say > to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights" (sic). > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it > now. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- OISHIK SIRCAR Scholar in Women's Rights Faculty of Law, University of Toronto 60 Harbord Street Room 016 B Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca 416.876.7926 From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Sun Jan 20 07:21:35 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 17:51:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Message-ID: <968066.25432.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It is time for Hindus to rise now... And no dicussion or virtual communities can stop it... Swami Vivekanand said - India have enough of religion.. And it is time now to say this to Christian and Muslims who force conversions the same thing.. If Sanskrit is the mother of all languages, Hinduism is the mother of all Religions... (But two religions have in particular always learnt to abuse their mother(Hinduism) - Islam and Christianity)... It is time now to stop the nation from producing more Kashmirs... It is time now to stop the non-Independent Religious India... So go on my dear friends as much as you like to abuse Hindus.. It hardly matters now.. Ramayan is proving to be a reality, Mahabharat is a reality.. History will also change.. It is Hindus that have taught peace to the world.. but to do that again, the two attackers have to be checked now.. People are doing that.. And will do that.. ----- Original Message ---- From: Javed To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 6:00:16 PM Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. India's Islam by Arun Nair Firstly, I must apologise if this article smacks of an impolite urgency and prescriptive-ness. I mean not to be arrogant, but as someone addressing you on a matter of deep concern to us all, I felt that there was little room for ceremonial apologies before every sentence. Also, as an Indian middle-class Hindu who grew up in the Babri-masjid 90s, it is easy for me to say some of the things I say here. Secondly, I address you, the reader, as an Indian citizen, not as a saintly Kabir or Gandhi preaching love for humanity. Our collective interests are being threatened by communal forces from within and without. WE MUST ACT. We must not merely lament about our respective versions of helplessnesses and others' faults. We are free today because India's greatest generation shook off the ghosts that bedevilled them, and took action to protect our interests. I implore you to continue that legacy. Thirdly, while I will go into what in my opinion are highly plausible theories of Indian nationhood and nationalism, my primary aim here is not to write any treatise on politics or sociology, but to protect our rights to belong equally to India – our common ancestral land – as Indians, and as free, dignified humans. Fourthly, my ideas will be presented largely based on first principles, also known as common-sense. My thesis is this: India must boldly assert its claim on Islamic civilisation in the subcontinent. That is the key to end our communal woes. This does not mean that India must become Islamic, or that Indian Muslims must be somehow Hinduised. The idea, instead, is to campaign relentlessly for India's Islamic civilisational authenticity. In the Indian psyche, Pakistan stands for Islam. Sadly for us and admittedly in a weaker form, Islam is also synonymous with Pakistan and everything Pakistani. This wouldn't have been so bad if Pakistan wasn't, well, un-Indian. We must use every tool at our disposal as a people to destroy the entrenched idea of Pakistani ownership of subcontinental Islam from within India. More importantly, this idea must be attacked from without it, because that is where it originates. Our chief weapon to eliminate Islam-Pakistan hyphenation from the subcontinent will be an authentic claim: the centre of Islamic civilisation in South Asia has always been undivided India, and after partition, India is its natural primary heir. The fact that a few million Muslims left India during partition to settle in our erstwhile outlying provinces doesn't change this. Neither does the fact that the Indian people chose a progressive, secular, democratic polity for their republic. In our minds and in the world's view, subcontinental Islam is under Pakistani occupation. The historical Indo-centric nature of subcontinental Islam should be used to throw off this psychological yoke. I urge Indians to rally together once again as our greatest generation did to protect our collective interests as the people of India. I urge friends of India all over the world to join us. Both in terms of geography and spirit, Islam in the subcontinent that coexisted and flourished alongside Indic cultures, has always been more Indian than Pakistani. If any single country represents subcontinental Islam as it historically was, it is India. Not Pakistan. India's Mughals. India's Qutub Minar, Gol Gumaz, and Taj Mahal. India's Kabir. India's Tipu Sultan, Shah Jahan, Akbar, and, why not, Aurangazeb. India's Urdu. India's Ghalib and Khusro. India's Delhi, Lucknow, Mysore, Hyderabad, Malabar, and Agra. Good history has to be deliberately written The people of India inherited thousands of years of history and associated baggage that we didn't really ask for. Keep in mind though that history is not a dead object - it is unfurling even as you read this. We may not be able to change what happened in India 200 years ago. But 200 years from now when people look back, they will see the Indian history that our generation wrote. It becomes then our duty, both as Indians and as sensible humans, to write it well. It is a great privilege to deliberately be able to write a part of something grand like the history of India. The first generation of Indians who did a coordinated job of writing our history was the one that won us our independence – our "freedom-generation". They could have attempted to write their Indian chapter any way they wanted to. We could have had a dark, China-style communism, for instance. But, given the Indian context, the freedom-generation chose the most egalitarian, elegant, and humanist theme they could come up with: a secular, liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, that takes its strength from its inherent pluralism and its inheritance of one of mankind's greatest civilisations. The freedom-generation's legacy for us is the deliberate and intelligent manner in which they forged an Indian national identity. Thanks to their efforts, our nationality is a solid concept. An Indian from Karnataka has a robust nationalistic bond with Indians say from Punjab, Gujarat, Assam, or Delhi. Regardless of what languages we speak, we all recognise Marathi, Tamil, Bengali and Telugu as Indian languages – ancestral assets that all Indians collectively own. It is a mistake, however, to think that the nation-building task they began is complete. Indian nationalism is not an idea frozen in time, but an evolving one. We, the successors of India's freedom-generation, must exercise our prerogative to define its finer contours and bring in new ideas to enrich it. Furthermore, we have an obligation to both our founding fathers and India's posterity to do this while being true to our quintessential Indian-ness, the just, egalitarian nature of our country as embodied in our constitution. Given that India's situation is not as pressing as it once was, new nationalist leaders – giants of the stature of Mahatma Gandhi, Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Subhash Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh, Jawaharlal Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad or Vallabhai Patel – may be difficult to emerge. There is no need to though. We succeeded them, and we must take this task upon ourselves. The freedom-generation watches over us in the form of our fraternity as Indians which they moulded at a great cost, and our constitution. Indian Nationalism - the idea of Indian brotherhood Amidst all this noisy consternation of Taslima Nasrin, Babri-masjid, BJP-Congress etc., its easy to lose sight of the really big pictures. Consider, for instance, this question: what really is the essence of Indian nationalism? Why do we all feel so closely tied to India and to each other? My answer is that, to put it simply, without the land we call India, Indians either have no identity, or very anaemic identities. All Indians share this same curious relation to India. When we are born to the same human mother, we are brothers. Our constitution formed by our freedom-generation explicitly asserts fraternity among the Indian people. Fraternity – brotherhood. In what sense are we brothers? Indians are brothers in the sense that the motherland that birthed my identity, also birthed yours. India is our ancestral land, and we should be proud of everything associated with it. Everything in India, its religions, its good and its bad, its languages, its glories and struggles, its rivers, its emperors, its heroes and villains, everything – is intricately weaved into our consciousnesses of who we are, where we come from, what our place in this world is, and how other humans see us. Without that identity, we are crippled. Ours is no ordinary brotherhood. Indian people didn't come into being merely a few centuries ago. We are an ancient civilisation, and what we have is a civlisational brotherhood – a bond arising from all of our belonging to the civilisation that unfolded in the same land, India. That brotherhood was formally declared through the constitution in 1949, but it existed much before that. Before our greatest generation gave it a concrete wording in the 20th century, it was well moulded in the crucible that is our land, in the fire of the previous several dozen, if not more, centuries. Every country of the world has stories that define their national essences. What is the most essential feature of Indian nationalism? It is our Indian identity – our being tied to India, and our civilisational brotherhood to each other in being bonded so. All Indians, regardless of their religion or language, has this bond with India and with each other. Indians must pause for a while and think why our anthem's going over our landmarks is so emotive. Or why Hindu-Muslim-Sikh-Christian insignia are powerful. Or why merely thinking of our history, or our Kerala, Karnataka, Maharashtra, UP, Punjab and Bengal moves all of us equally. It's because they remind us of our organic ties to India, and the brotherhood that we have with each other. This natural bond given to us by our glorious and at times bloody history is important. If we don't uphold this bond with the ferocity that our greatest generation did, if we don't use it to protect our common interests, our country will remain weak. Our country's nature What is the nature of our country? What does it mean for something to be Indian? For one, if all of us Indians could get together today and declare in one voice that India stands for certain values, then that would be an authoritative statement. India is what Indians say it is. If, say, the people of the then-Indian civilisation – Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Sikhs, and Jains – had made such a statement 400 years ago and preserved its spirit through centuries, that would have probably have been one of the greatest Indian texts. If you will recall, a very similar event actually did happen in 1949, when the founding fathers of the Indian republic adopted, enacted, and gave to ourselves - the sovereign people of India - our constitution. The preamble reads, "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure to all its citizens: JUSTICE, social, economic and political; LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among them all FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and integrity of the Nation. IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION." In an absolute sense, the values of justice, liberty, and equality have an intuitive appeal to all humans everywhere. However, the formidable authority of our constitution comes from the crushed but proud people who paid a very high price for our right to live as equals and as dignified humans in India. We must take their word for what India is – they must have known and dreamt quite a bit about it. India's greatest generation definitely realised that divisivism, self-doubt, and other demons from our past would haunt the republic they formed. Which is why the constitution is important. It helps us protect our country from ourselves. The Constitution. Indian Nationalism. How we will defend India. Those who doubt the moral power of our freedom-generation, our constitutional ethos, and Indian nationalism need only look at Pakistan, which renounced all these in its attempts not to be seen as Indian. Pakistan's leaders, in trying to defend their divisve national philosophy, forced the most horrible bankruptcy on its people. Rather than using Indian nationalism and the constitution to tackle our communal issues, I am appalled at the general trend to merely lament that India is on its way to being declared an non-secular state - the hundreds of millions of Indians fully intent on preventing this notwithstanding. Pakistan-style Islamism, Ummah-isation of Hinduism, alienation of Indian Muslims There are three major trends in India today that are relevant to our topic. Firstly, India has very serious conflicts of interest with Pakistan. We have gone to war with that country several times. Its society has issues with radicalisation and a general religious orthodoxy. Its regimes have relentlessly attacked India's internal fault-lines over the past few decades in the name of Islam. Tens of thousands of Indian soldiers have died defending our country against them. It is distinctly un-Indian and anti-Indian. Secondly, Hinduism is, for the lack of a better word, Ummah-ising, and this at times takes horrifyingly militant forms. I, given my personal biases, am all for Hindu solidarity and abolishing pseudo-secularism. However, an argument for Hindu-solidarity should not be allowed to take the form of an un-Indian religionalism that goes against the very spirit of India. Thirdly, Indian Muslims feel alienated from their own country. In India, Pakistan is synonymous with Islam. Unfortunately, Islam is also weakly synonymous with Pakistan. This has significantly undermined Indian Muslims' political standing in India vis-a-vis their fellow citizens. The havoc all this has wreaked on our society must not be ignored. India was home to one of humanity's greatest Islamic cultures for well over 1000 years. It is not, by any means, a dead part of our culture - nearly 160 million Indians are Muslims, several national icons are Muslims, mosques and Islamic architecture litter the country, and Muslim holidays are shared by all. And yet, to a lot of Indians, Islam doesn't feel Indian, but Pakistani. Despite their respective religious majorities, it is odd that Buddhism doesn't feel Sri Lankan, or Hinduism itself, Nepali. The partition of India and secular India's deprivation of its Islamic authenticity Has anyone thought what has actually happened here? Why is it that in India, an ancient civilisational land which has a unique Islamic culture just like Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, Islam is seen as somehow foreign? That is not because of Islam's being inconsistent with India – 1000 years and more of history and our combined freedom struggle should have proven this by now. During partition, founders of Pakistan expropriated the subcontinent's Islamic identity for defining their nation, Pakistan. Pakistan's struggle to keep its ideology alive has robbed us of our Islamic authenticity. India's secular nature not-withstanding, the ardour with which Pakistan argued itsideology and pushed its exclusivist national philosophy within the larger Islamic community ensured that it gained some traction in the Indian society. Pakistan's military conflicts with "Hindu" India only amplified this. It only takes a few of decades of intense activity for a new Zeitgeist to take root in a society. Consider denazification of Germany, China's turn into capitalism, and India's own economic liberalisation. 30 years – that is all it takes for a young generation to grow up shaped by a pervasive ideology. Though quite smaller than India, Pakistan is by no means a tiny nation. It is the world's 6th most populous country, one of its major economies, and a prominent player during the cold war. One cannot find fault with it - Pakistan had to defend its national philosophy. It has expended a tremendous amount of national effort over the last 60 years in achieving a strong association between subcontinental Islam and itself. They have succeeded splendidly. Islam in the subcontinent today is seen as prominently Pakistani and India's secular fabric warped by that perception. Pakistan is an Islamic nation - this somehow gives them a stronger claim on everything Islamic in the subcontinent. The world simply does not recognise India's Islamic authenticity, and neither do many Indians within. India continues to be associated primarily with Hinduism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, but not Islam. Does religious brotherhood entirely negate the organic bonds a human has to his ancestral land and its history, and to his fellow humans who share the same bonds as him? I don't really know. What I do know is that this is not the principle on which the Indian republic was founded, and its definitely not an Indian value. Religious supremacism and breaking up of Indian people are un-Indian philosophies. It goes against the very spirit of our freedom struggle, nationalism, and our constitution. Indians must remember that new Pakistani generations do not even have the same right to speak for India's Muslims that their earlier generations might have had. Indian democracy has proven this unnecessary anyway. Indo-Pak culture-drift and attempts at an unnatural bonhomie There is a delusion among the political class and Indian people that our shared past can be used to achieve friendly relations between India and Pakistan. My view is that in doing so, we are only reinforcing the internal Islam-Pakistan hyphenation. When historical developments asunder a people, over a period of time the newly formed groups drift increasingly farther from one another. Once upon time, Myanmar and Sri Lanka were part of India, just like Pakistan and Bangladesh. Afghanistan was part of several Indian empires. Today, though at a national level we have very cordial relations, they are distinctly unfamiliar to us. Such a natural drift has definitely taken place between India and Pakistan. The strongest bond between us that keeps us in each others' national memories is not anything positive that we share, but the acrid legacy of partition. It's hard for me as an Indian, for instance, to imagine such an Islamism taking hold of Pakistan if it were under Akbar's rule. That is, if it were under genuinely Indian-style Islamic rule. I am not suggesting we should actively pursue enmity with Pakistan or vilify it. However, its being clumped together with Indian Muslims is simply not healthy for India. What has Pakistan's 'leadership' of subcontinental Muslims, its advocacy of religious supremacism within, and its enmity with India effectively accomplished? It has robbed India of its genuine Islamic authenticity in the world's eyes, and caused non-Muslim Indians to reject the culture of an un-Indian enemy. Pakistan has highlighted Indian Muslims' being Islamic and consistently de-emphasized their being Indian. Pursuing an unnatural bonhomie with Pakistan and stressing our similarities with them will only weaken our case for our differences, which are very real. To uphold our national interest, we must assert and amplify these differences. Replace Islam-Pakistan hyphenation with Islam-India hyphenation in the subcontinent I urge Indians to spearhead a change of perception of Islam in the subcontinent. Anything that prevents Indian Muslims' fully asserting their claim on India as Indian citizens is against the national interest. The strong association in India between subcontinental Islam and the present day un-Indian Pakistan must go. It is tempting to claim that all South Asian countries share Islamic civilization equally. It may be polite and civil to do so, and it may even have some historical merit, but it's a weak claim for our purposes. It doesn't have the necessary boldness and self-conviction to be effective. It also doesn't forcefully argue for India's Islamic authenticity. Our aim is to end Islam-Pakistan hyphenation for the welfare of a billion humans, not to be fair observers of history. We must hence push the strongest nationalistic claim possible: Islam in the subcontinent is Indian, and it always has been. Indian Islam never 'went' anywhere – it is alive and well amidst us. Our nationalism and constitution are guarantees that it will thrive if Pakistan would let go of it. When the world thinks of Hinduism in South Asia, it thinks of India. Sikhism, it thinks of India. Buddhism, India. When it thinks of Islam in South Asia, it must think of India. Everyone in the subcontinent will be better off. Everyone. The idea that Islam in the subcontinent is primarily Indian can gain currency only through a concerted nationalist campaign. No apologies should be made for such a movement. No one need be convinced of its proponents' "patriotism". The obvious worthiness of the cause, its truth, and its urgency are justifications enough. What ideas might such a campaign seek to make current? The countries in our region share an intertwined, messy history. We have a lot in common - languages, religions, culture, quirks - all part of our common and colourful heritage. However, if our historical and religious assets must be divided amongst us, then the worthiest inheritor of Islamic heritage in the subcontinent can only be India. Not Pakistan, not Bangladesh, not Sri Lanka, not Myanmar, not Nepal. India is the only nation that has been true to the historical spirit of Indian Islam – that of flourishing alongside other Indic faiths in India. Slay our demons ourselves Has it ever struck you that in our country, we have a vicious circularity of the following sort: we feel dismayed that the country/political class/leadership has done nothing for us; a form of apathy and resignation sets in; the country/political class/leadership continues to do nothing; we feel increasingly more dismayed. We are a democracy. We individually must act. Things won't happen if we don't. I urge Indians to assert India's secularism and nationalism to fight alienation of the Muslim community from Indian mainstream. This battle is the easier one to win – there are hundreds of millions of reasonable Indians, the Indian constitution, the liberal press, the legacy of our freedom-generation, and truth and justice on our side. I also urge Indians to fight Pakistani supremacy of subcontinental Islam from the outside. That is the root of all our problems. That is the key battle in India's war against communalism. We must learn to say, "Thanks, but no thanks. I understand what you mean, but this is not really true" to anyone who stresses commonalities of any sort in the subcontinent. Who will go first? Based on the concept of ownership of our destiny, what are the answers to these questions: "But how can non-Muslims claim that Islam in the subcontinent is Indian when it is represented by Pakistan and Indian Muslims themselves imply so?" "How can Indian Muslims make the Indo-centric claim when there is a genuine sense of their alienation in India and rest of Indian society accuses them of siding with Pakistan. We cannot move against Pakstani Muslims. There is a lot in common between us." I don't know! I am definitely going, in my own way. That I know. I will not ever treat any Indian by as automatically allied with a foreign, inimical power. I will continue making people aware of the need to end the subcontinental Islam-Pakistan association and replace it with Islam-India. We shall NOT vilify. We shall have faith. Indians should stop vilifying each other. Not because it would be saintly to do so, but because it only weakens our unity. Our nationalism and our constitution are solid stuff. Our greatest generation did their job well. If we must challenge our fellow Indians, invoke these instruments. Face with stead-fast stoicism any slurs, any accusations of you being an anti-Indian Muslim or a communal Hindutvawadi. Let the diatribe die down. Repeat your arguments invoking our nationalism, constitution, and your reasoning again. Do not ask anyone to 'prove' his or her patriotism. It's demeaning to do so. Satyameva Jayate – truth alone triumphs. If you are right, you will win. Have faith in our country and in every Indians' goodness and genuine attachment to their land. Augmenting India's ideological basis Earlier I mentioned that our work on Indian nationhood is not a frozen process, but a continuing one. We can and must correct any earlier mistakes that continue to torment India's communal harmony. If the greatest challenge the freedom-generation faced was ending the British rule and forming a stable republic, the greatest challenge before us is to take back leadership of subcontinental Islam from Pakistan. Our challenge is to do this without sacrificing India's secular nature. To tackle our new communal challenges in the 21st century, I propose the following: 1. Secularism will continue to remain the Indian union's lynch pin. It should not, however, require any particular religious group's giving up their right to assert religious solidarity. We should genuinely address any concerns about hypocrisy in the name of secularism. 2. India is a mature concept, and we should actively use it to tackle the challenges before us. Secularism is an integral part of our nationhood and a historically irreversible development. It follows that religionalism – wherever it is practised – is distinctly un-Indian. Within India, it is also anti-Indian in the sense that they weaken India and goes against its spirit. 3. The natural heir to Islamic civilisation in the subcontinent is India. Subcontinental Islam has always been an Indian phenomenon. Pakistan's oft-reinforced association with Indian Muslims must be destroyed. 4. India's brotherhood with its neighbours is dying. Soon there will be an Indian generation which doesn't have a single Indian born before partition. Every single human in the subcontinent would have been born in the countries as they existed after partition. The continuing attempts to maintain an unnatural bonhomie with India's hostile neighbours is not a tenable project - Pakistan has moved too far away from what was once India. Indian Muslims. India's Islam. A shockingly large amount of our national energy is wasted in countering the effects of Islam-Pakistan hyphenation in the subcontinent. The solution is simple. Reclaim the part of Indian identity that was robbed of us some 60 years back. If India is Hindu, then for similar reasons, it is also Buddhist, Sikh, Christian - and Islamic. Purported authority over sub-continental Islam by other entities in the subcontinent is an outrageous farce that must be ended right away. There is no obligation to do this meekly. India doesn't have merely a substantial claim or merely an equal claim. It simply has more right to subcontinental Islamic heritage than anyone else by an overwhelmingly large margin, period. We must use it for our national well-being. Who can assert subcontinental Islam's Indian nature boldly, loudly, without an iota of self-doubt or hesitation? Who needs this to be done most urgently? Who suffers from a deprivation of their right to belong to India the most? The Hindus? Sikhs? Buddhists? Christians? Jains? Clearly not. Who else? The Indian Muslims. The others are left distinctly poorer and their country's communal harmony stressed, but their Indian genuineness is unquestioned within India and the world over. There is not going to be an un-Indian leader-nation for India's Sikhs, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists and Christians in our neighbourhood any time soon. http://indianmuslims.in/indias-islam/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Sun Jan 20 07:30:23 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:00:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? Message-ID: <699707.97712.qm@web90415.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Muslim friend, Please stop talking about Hindus killings in Kashmir.. It is natural and logical to hear only Gujarat and Babri from the mouths of Muslims.. We know how many times you come forward to accept your doings across the nation and also across the world.. Killing, Abuse and Attack on Hindus is what you are taught and that is what you do and will do... And your own doings are in fact the deed in the way of God... Good learnings.... ----- Original Message ---- From: Wali Arifi To: Pawan Durani Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 2:18:44 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? Dear all, Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many lessons. One being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate figures when it comes to human loss. But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the loss. In fact accuracy adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. In essence multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to take refuge in propaganda and cloth the truth with it. Mr Durrani in his post has said: "….for killing of more than 3000 Kashmiri pandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this community." I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What is Mr Durrani trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of killings? Is he helping the community by exaggerating the figure? According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri pandits were killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. It has to be understood that multiplying figures is dangerously counterproductive for those who call themselves as the champions and custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget about the use of words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing and so on... Kashmir's history will be written by those who have dreamed of a 'just Kashmir'. Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or trying to create it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into what it has actually been in all practice...* *Majoritarianism. Regards, Wali On Jan 19, 2008 11:16 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Fazli , > > NamaskAr > > You are right . There is no point in narrating the stories to me . For I > have been a victim of Islamic terrorism in Kashmir . > > If Kashmiri muslims are suffering today, which I do not disagree , it is > because of their own stand. They welcomed back the Jihadis from Pakistan > with sweets . They glorified *terrorism*. They did not utter a word when > Kashmiri Hindus were killed. > > Even after so many years they still did not mind giving a rousing rception > to terrorists like Bitta Karate who has admitted to selective killings of > 40 > Kashmiri pandits. > > Fazli , do you still think there is a point telling me stories. > > God Bless > > Regards > > Pawan > > PS : I have some good friends still in Kashmir , and the reason is that > they > admit to what went wrong and not one who try to distort history. > > > On 1/19/08, gowhar fazli wrote: > > > > What has made you believe no one got punished in > > Kashmir. Kashmir is a virtual hell where the whole > > Muslim population is under imprisonment with torture > > and humiliation 24X7 for the last seventeen years. > > You have to be grossly insensitive not to notice > > this... despite the fact that migration of Pandits > > whether under state patronage or compulsion would not > > have been a cake-walk. In Kashmir, it is not just the > > miscreants who may have harmed Pandits or damaged > > public property or the intolerant 'fundamentalists' > > who are being punished... (though you will find many > > more times the Pandit population of such people > > rotting in jails, killed without impunity, tortured or > > 'disappeared'... ) Punishment in Kashmir is for > > everybody without exception (even the stooges of the > > state are not safe from itself). > > > > The biggest worry for you and me are the generations > > that are being brought up under these inhuman > > conditions while your kids grow up in decent > > neighbourhoods (I presume). With military to kick > > them around everyday, you cannot expect them to grow > > to love the state or YOU for not caring to change > > this. They will especially hate you for trying to > > privilege injustice faced by the group you cling on to > > so dearly, while justifying the injustice faced by > > those whom you would rather wish dead. > > > > In the name of militancy and fundamentalism the whole > > Kashmiri Muslim population has been successfully > > criminalized. Kashmiri Muslims are not faced with the > > choice of being 'patriotic' or 'unpatriotic'. This > > choice has already been made for them by you and the > > state. > > > > I seriously wonder if there is any point in telling > > you all this. > > > > > > --- Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > At least 6 years after the Gujarat riot , which > > > started after some > > > fundamentalists burnt alive scores of Hindu Pilgrims > > > returning from Ayodhya > > > , few people were convicted. > > > > > > Compare it with the case of Kashmiri Pandits , even > > > after 18 years , not > > > even a single person has been convicted in Kashmir > > > for killing of more than > > > 3000 Kashmiri pandits . Not to talk of rape and > > > arson against this > > > community. > > > > > > For that reason that the state is ruled by > > > camouflage Islamic fundamentalist > > > and Islamic groups are in majority. > > > > > > When will the justice be served to Kashmiri Pandits > > > ? At least in Modis > > > gujarat ....it has been served..... > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/18/08, S.Fatima > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Friends > > > > Look at these two news items for what's being > > > > discussed on this list right now: > > > > > > > > 12 convicted in Bilkis Bano rape case > > > > 18 Jan 2008, 1710 hrs IST,PTI > > > > MUMBAI: Twelve persons, including a police > > > official, > > > > were convicted by a special court here on Friday > > > in > > > > the Bilkis Bano gang-rape case related to the > > > > post-Godhra communal violence in Gujarat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/12_convicted_in_Bilkis_Bano_rape_case/articleshow/2711484.cms > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > 'Modi gave us a free run to do whatever we wanted' > > > > 26 Oct 2007, 0101 hrs IST,TNN > > > > > > > > NEW DELHI: "We made a complete rocket launcher > > > here... > > > > We distributed so many weapons, people were > > > shocked. > > > > We'd make them here and then test them." > > > > > > > > Here are some more such shocking 'testimonies': > > > > > > > > Suresh Richard, an accused in the Naroda Patiya > > > > episode in which over 200 Muslims were officially > > > > estimated to have been killed, said on camera that > > > > Modi visited the locality the same evening, > > > February > > > > 28, and thanked the perpetrators of the violence > > > > saying, "Aap dhanya ho... (You are blessed)." > > > > > > > > Rajendra Vyas, a senior VHP functionary who was on > > > the > > > > Sabarmati Express that was set on fire in Godhra, > > > > said, "The Muslims had played a one-day match with > > > > us... They have given us a target of 60... We have > > > to > > > > win this match at any cost, so don't stop till you > > > > have made 600 runs... Modi gave us a free run to > > > do > > > > whatever we wanted... The police were with us..." > > > > > > > > Babu Bajrangi, a Bajrang Dal activist who has been > > > in > > > > the news for blocking the carnage movie Parzania > > > from > > > > being screened in the state, revealed that police > > > > commissioner P C Pande, who has recently been > > > moved > > > > out of the DGP's post by the Election Commission, > > > had > > > > ordered that the 700-800 dead bodies at Naroda > > > Patiya > > > > be clandestinely picked up and dumped all over > > > > Ahmedabad. > > > > > > > > "The commissioner came that night and said that if > > > > there were so many dead at one place, it would > > > create > > > > trouble for him... After killing them, I felt like > > > > Maharana Pratap... We killed at will, turned the > > > place > > > > into Haldighati." > > > > > > > > Key witness in the Godhra case, Ranjitsingh Patel, > > > a > > > > petrol pump employee who deposed that he had sold > > > 140 > > > > litres of petrol to the accused on the eve of the > > > > Sabarmati episode, admits that he and his > > > colleague > > > > were both paid Rs 50,000 each by Noel Parmar, the > > > > chief investigating officer. > > > > > > > > "Noel saheb gave me fifty thousand, showed me a > > > > photograph and said I had to identify him." Two > > > BJP > > > > members, Murli Mulchandani and Kakul Pathak, who > > > > claimed to be eyewitnesses to the Godhra attack > > > and > > > > identified many of the accused, admit they were > > > not > > > > even at the station that fateful day. > > > > > > > > Mulchandani said: "I wasn't at the station, I was > > > > sleeping at home. But the police put me among the > > > > witnesses." Pathak said, "The police gave all the > > > > names. None of the eyewitnesses wrote their > > > > statements. The police did." > > > > > > > > Arvind Pandya, the government's counsel in the > > > ongoing > > > > proceedings before the Nanavati-Shah Commission > > > > probing the carnage, said that the accused had > > > nothing > > > > to fear from either of the retired judges. > > > "Nanavati > > > > is a clever man... He wants money... Of the two > > > > judges, Shah is intelligent... woh anpe wala hai > > > (he > > > > is our man)... he is sympathetic to us... Nanavati > > > is > > > > after money." > > > > > > > > Bharat Bhatt, a public prosecutor, said that he > > > was > > > > shielding the Hindu accused even as he was > > > supposed to > > > > be arguing against them. > > > > > > > > "I tell all the Hindus not to smile when they see > > > > me... not to say a word to me. I tell them that I > > > will > > > > scold them if they do so... Sometimes I deceive > > > > them... I scare them but later show my affections > > > > too..." > > > > > > > > In the Gulbarg Society massacre, accused Madan > > > Chawal > > > > gives a first-hand account of how former Congress > > > MP > > > > Ehsan Jafri was hacked limb by limb and burned. He > > > > says Jafri offered them money in return for his > > > life. > > > > "We said yes. When he came out, we took the money > > > and > > > > pounced on him." > > > > > > > > > > > > Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from > > > any browser, without > > > > download. Go to > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php/ > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > > the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > > the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > > > subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the balance of nature decrees that a super-abundance of > > dreams is paid for by a growing potential for nightmares. > > > > Love is an act of endless forgiveness, a tender look which becomes a > > habit. > > > > Peter Ustinov > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 10:32:50 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:32:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome In-Reply-To: <62cba67a0801190939u6e0443cwa12bd21e6ecf3a65@mail.gmail.com> References: <411844.9395.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <62cba67a0801190939u6e0443cwa12bd21e6ecf3a65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801192102l73cc8e4ey153923c713533d6d@mail.gmail.com> Oashik must have his personal issues with hindu's. Let us not ask him his problem ........as that may be embarassing for him.''' On 1/19/08, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > > Kshmendra: > > That was not meant to be an abuse at all... it was meant to suggest a > means > to experience anal stimulation that can be orgasmic... I have tried it... > so > suggested that Vedavati do the same... you could also do the same... > actually all the HINDUS who are obsessing about nationalism on this > listserv > should do the same... they'll realise that there are better and more > enjoyable -- and of course more useful things in life to do than spew > virulent intolerance. Suggesting means to experience pleasure is not > abuse, > I'm sure you'll agree. > > And I am overwhelmed with the kind of response my comments have attracted > -- > that's the way to keep the Hindu bullshitters engaged I can clearly see. > > If you find this mail to be crude and obscene as well -- I would've made > my > point. > > Cheers... > > Oishik > > On Jan 19, 2008 3:16 AM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > It is ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to the notice > > of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against abuse directed at > > them. > > > > Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI) was the > > one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and obscene > manner. > > > > Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would have to > say > > to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights" (sic). > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try > it > > now. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > -- > OISHIK SIRCAR > > Scholar in Women's Rights > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > 60 Harbord Street > Room 016 B > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > CA +1 4168767926 Call > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pkray11 at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 12:27:30 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:27:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Bharat Ratna award goes to... Message-ID: <98f331e00801192257l123ecc92sf7095a71b44d971c@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, Joining the on-going clamour regarding the possible Bharat Ratna awardee, I propose the few names (not in any order) to be considered - R K Laxman M F Hussain Sitara Devi Ganga Devi Ram Manohar Lohia E M S Namboodaripad B R Chopra Khushwant Singh V P Singh Ratan Thiyam Habib Tanveer Ritwik Ghatak Sahir Ludhiyanwi Gajanan Madhav Muktibodh Sunderlal Bahuguna Baba Amte Sa'adat Hasan Manto the Women who protested at the Army Office in Manipur the Bombay Dabbawallas the Menhole cleaners the Farmers the small shopkeepers and vendors at Jantar Mantar the flower sellers the postmen ..... regards, Prakash K Ray From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sun Jan 20 12:41:09 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 23:11:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? Message-ID: <613973.25294.qm@web45503.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> we wi wrote: Why pawan is being targeted with questions? Where were all these voices, when I was posting so many mails EXCEPT this n that whatever(filters,abuses,protocols,maintenance etc.,)? No body responded except just reading them and burning with whatever zest?. The fact is that as chanchal wrote on how secularism redefined by India, it was successfully proved that (sad to say)the actions are nonsecular(leave few rulers like Akbar and so as people). I am happy to see that educated illeterates/school drop outs would like to know about what is Nationalism, Secularism,Hinduism and Humanity. 1) Though SARAI is not a school to conduct classes on these 2) Its against the basic rules of Hinduism to campaign about the beauty of itself, 3) I am not somebody to perform this activity on anybody behalf including the religion,god and so called god-man and not only that in particular 4) You people are more intended to know and understand what is Hinduism With the above 4 reasons I take this opportunity to say and write few lines purely in English. I request others to convey the meaning to those who do not follow. ---On Nationalism --People do not know what is JANAGANAMANA, they fail to stand up and pay homage why(WHERE EVER IT IS PLAYED)? --People do not know Vandemataram fully? pay homage why? --Why wrong schools with -ve wrecked thoughts are coming into existence in Indian society? --While I questioned the existence of Pakistan as a nation after Zinna, How can you people think that you can convince for all your atrocities and illicit actions performed earlier and now? Isn't it true that Hindu culture ransacked like anything since the ages to till? --On Secularism As per secularism you can live the way you wish to live without interrupting others, but Isn't it true that conversions are publicly going on by conducting SPECIAL WRONG PRAYERS in the name of SUWARTHA SWASTHATH MAHA SABHAS which are under total control and knowledge of The so called bishops,pasters,fathers and their backed IAS,IPS selected under reservations category?(Amen excuse me). For doing this the unconventional methods like(upper and lower caste tags) that they are adopting, What about them??? Isn't it true that these copy n paste preachers imitate and adopt BHAGAVAD GITA? I dont wish to write much how these prayers and meetings will proceed further... --On Hinduism what to say, Though there are many let me insist particulaly on The practitioner who has a belief in rules defined and their practices is Hindu starting from BIRTH to DEATH and POST DEATH(Inherited Annual kriyas pertaining the family tree from forefathers to sons) by manasa,vaacha,karmana. (Chaturvidha phala purushardhas-- Dharma,artha,kamya,moksh) Hell and Sins are defined clearly for every wrong/evil/criminal actions and so as Heaven and Moksha(Jeevathma,Paramathma). As this in this Selfish age KALI Era the dharma usually runs on single quadrant instead of 4 at Krita era, sins are quite possible but not the way its going on at rapid speed now. --On Humanity In particular AURANGZEB to NIZAM RAJAKARS, Later Partition time killings due to ZINNA small desire lamented by BRITISH under divide and rule policy and now riots and jihadi attacks ? WHO WILL COUNT THESE NUMBER? INDIA DO POSSES ITS OWN RECORDED HISTORY for every MINUTE INCIDENT. Why should Brahmans captured and tortured with various hellish methods by various Islamic rulers in KASHMIR? Why Pundits threatened and brutally killed in KASHMIR? Why Literature and Vedic universities ruined? Is there any LAW working at anytime(forget other religious practices) (As per islamic religious practice and law at various countries other than INDIA, if the guilty is a thief then hands should be removed if the guilty is a murderer then, should hanged until death ....................................................... ....................................................... ) Is this humanity? Who will take the responsibility for this damage and in what way and how much? Will any body reciprocate the damage in terms of humans,art n culture,rupees,pounds,or dollars? P.S: If Army is not there at COUNTRY boarders to protect, Who else will be there? JIHADIS or NEIGHBORING COUNTRY ARMY like the chinese and pakistani prosecutions and occupations? AMIN A BREAK SHOULD DEFINITELY NEEDED, YOU SHOULD SENT FOR YOGA for better good thinking and should undergo for atleast 5 minute daily usual prayer(god) for peace of life. Regards, Dhatri. Pawan Durani wrote: Dear Wali Arif , Congratulations for admitting that 208 Kashmiri Pandits were killed. If you believe in Govt records , then the Govt has no record of total number of Kashmiri Pandit having been killed in Kashmir. And the total figure as per the Govt for number of persons killed in Kashmir post 1989 is 14000 + . I have a Govt document to prove that. Now for my figure of 3000 Kashmiri Pandits killed in Kashmir , I personally have list of 1800 + people who were killed . There were expectedly many many others who did not even lodge a complaint and you know police were hand in glove with terrorists. Infact arms were transferred in Kashmir using state govt ambulences.Kashmiri Pandits were not even treated in hospitals, for their killing was considered just ....as it was a work of Jihadis. And if yiu still keep wondering , i am not surprised for you too belong to the same set of school. I do not need to tell you which one , you know that. God Bless Regards Pawan Durani On 1/19/08, Wali Arifi wrote: Dear all, Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many lessons. One being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate figures when it comes to human loss. But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the loss. In fact accuracy adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. In essence multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to take refuge in propaganda and cloth the truth with it. Mr Durrani in his post has said: " .for killing of more than 3000 Kashmiri pandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this community." I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What is Mr Durrani trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of killings? Is he helping the community by exaggerating the figure? According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri pandits were killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. It has to be understood that multiplying figures is dangerously counterproductive for those who call themselves as the champions and custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget about the use of words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing and so on... Kashmir's history will be written by those who have dreamed of a 'just Kashmir'. Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or trying to create it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into what it has actually been in all practice... Majoritarianism. Regards, Wali On Jan 19, 2008 11:16 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: Dear Fazli , NamaskAr You are right . There is no point in narrating the stories to me . For I have been a victim of Islamic terrorism in Kashmir . If Kashmiri muslims are suffering today, which I do not disagree , it is because of their own stand. They welcomed back the Jihadis from Pakistan with sweets . They glorified *terrorism*. They did not utter a word when Kashmiri Hindus were killed. Even after so many years they still did not mind giving a rousing rception to terrorists like Bitta Karate who has admitted to selective killings of 40 Kashmiri pandits. Fazli , do you still think there is a point telling me stories. God Bless Regards Pawan PS : I have some good friends still in Kashmir , and the reason is that they admit to what went wrong and not one who try to distort history. On 1/19/08, gowhar fazli wrote: > > What has made you believe no one got punished in > Kashmir. Kashmir is a virtual hell where the whole > Muslim population is under imprisonment with torture > and humiliation 24X7 for the last seventeen years. > You have to be grossly insensitive not to notice > this... despite the fact that migration of Pandits > whether under state patronage or compulsion would not > have been a cake-walk. In Kashmir, it is not just the > miscreants who may have harmed Pandits or damaged > public property or the intolerant 'fundamentalists' > who are being punished... (though you will find many > more times the Pandit population of such people > rotting in jails, killed without impunity, tortured or > 'disappeared'... ) Punishment in Kashmir is for > everybody without exception (even the stooges of the > state are not safe from itself). > > The biggest worry for you and me are the generations > that are being brought up under these inhuman > conditions while your kids grow up in decent > neighbourhoods (I presume). With military to kick > them around everyday, you cannot expect them to grow > to love the state or YOU for not caring to change > this. They will especially hate you for trying to > privilege injustice faced by the group you cling on to > so dearly, while justifying the injustice faced by > those whom you would rather wish dead. > > In the name of militancy and fundamentalism the whole > Kashmiri Muslim population has been successfully > criminalized. Kashmiri Muslims are not faced with the > choice of being 'patriotic' or 'unpatriotic'. This > choice has already been made for them by you and the > state. > > I seriously wonder if there is any point in telling > you all this. > > > --- Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: > > > At least 6 years after the Gujarat riot , which > > started after some > > fundamentalists burnt alive scores of Hindu Pilgrims > > returning from Ayodhya > > , few people were convicted. > > > > Compare it with the case of Kashmiri Pandits , even > > after 18 years , not > > even a single person has been convicted in Kashmir > > for killing of more than > > 3000 Kashmiri pandits . Not to talk of rape and > > arson against this > > community. > > > > For that reason that the state is ruled by > > camouflage Islamic fundamentalist > > and Islamic groups are in majority. > > > > When will the justice be served to Kashmiri Pandits > > ? At least in Modis > > gujarat ....it has been served..... > > > > > > > > On 1/18/08, S.Fatima > > wrote: > > > > > > Friends > > > Look at these two news items for what's being > > > discussed on this list right now: > > > > > > 12 convicted in Bilkis Bano rape case > > > 18 Jan 2008, 1710 hrs IST,PTI > > > MUMBAI: Twelve persons, including a police > > official, > > > were convicted by a special court here on Friday > > in > > > the Bilkis Bano gang-rape case related to the > > > post-Godhra communal violence in Gujarat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/12_convicted_in_Bilkis_Bano_rape_case/articleshow/2711484.cms > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > > > 'Modi gave us a free run to do whatever we wanted' > > > 26 Oct 2007, 0101 hrs IST,TNN > > > > > > NEW DELHI: "We made a complete rocket launcher > > here... > > > We distributed so many weapons, people were > > shocked. > > > We'd make them here and then test them." > > > > > > Here are some more such shocking 'testimonies': > > > > > > Suresh Richard, an accused in the Naroda Patiya > > > episode in which over 200 Muslims were officially > > > estimated to have been killed, said on camera that > > > Modi visited the locality the same evening, > > February > > > 28, and thanked the perpetrators of the violence > > > saying, "Aap dhanya ho... (You are blessed)." > > > > > > Rajendra Vyas, a senior VHP functionary who was on > > the > > > Sabarmati Express that was set on fire in Godhra, > > > said, "The Muslims had played a one-day match with > > > us... They have given us a target of 60... We have > > to > > > win this match at any cost, so don't stop till you > > > have made 600 runs... Modi gave us a free run to > > do > > > whatever we wanted... The police were with us..." > > > > > > Babu Bajrangi, a Bajrang Dal activist who has been > > in > > > the news for blocking the carnage movie Parzania > > from > > > being screened in the state, revealed that police > > > commissioner P C Pande, who has recently been > > moved > > > out of the DGP's post by the Election Commission, > > had > > > ordered that the 700-800 dead bodies at Naroda > > Patiya > > > be clandestinely picked up and dumped all over > > > Ahmedabad. > > > > > > "The commissioner came that night and said that if > > > there were so many dead at one place, it would > > create > > > trouble for him... After killing them, I felt like > > > Maharana Pratap... We killed at will, turned the > > place > > > into Haldighati." > > > > > > Key witness in the Godhra case, Ranjitsingh Patel, > > a > > > petrol pump employee who deposed that he had sold > > 140 > > > litres of petrol to the accused on the eve of the > > > Sabarmati episode, admits that he and his > > colleague > > > were both paid Rs 50,000 each by Noel Parmar, the > > > chief investigating officer. > > > > > > "Noel saheb gave me fifty thousand, showed me a > > > photograph and said I had to identify him." Two > > BJP > > > members, Murli Mulchandani and Kakul Pathak, who > > > claimed to be eyewitnesses to the Godhra attack > > and > > > identified many of the accused, admit they were > > not > > > even at the station that fateful day. > > > > > > Mulchandani said: "I wasn't at the station, I was > > > sleeping at home. But the police put me among the > > > witnesses." Pathak said, "The police gave all the > > > names. None of the eyewitnesses wrote their > > > statements. The police did." > > > > > > Arvind Pandya, the government's counsel in the > > ongoing > > > proceedings before the Nanavati-Shah Commission > > > probing the carnage, said that the accused had > > nothing > > > to fear from either of the retired judges. > > "Nanavati > > > is a clever man... He wants money... Of the two > > > judges, Shah is intelligent... woh anpe wala hai > > (he > > > is our man)... he is sympathetic to us... Nanavati > > is > > > after money." > > > > > > Bharat Bhatt, a public prosecutor, said that he > > was > > > shielding the Hindu accused even as he was > > supposed to > > > be arguing against them. > > > > > > "I tell all the Hindus not to smile when they see > > > me... not to say a word to me. I tell them that I > > will > > > scold them if they do so... Sometimes I deceive > > > them... I scare them but later show my affections > > > too..." > > > > > > In the Gulbarg Society massacre, accused Madan > > Chawal > > > gives a first-hand account of how former Congress > > MP > > > Ehsan Jafri was hacked limb by limb and burned. He > > > says Jafri offered them money in return for his > > life. > > > "We said yes. When he came out, we took the money > > and > > > pounced on him." > > > > > > > > > Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from > > any browser, without > > > download. Go to > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php/ > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > > subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > Unfortunately, the balance of nature decrees that a super-abundance of > dreams is paid for by a growing potential for nightmares. > > Love is an act of endless forgiveness, a tender look which becomes a > habit. > > Peter Ustinov > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. From asitredsalute at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 13:56:12 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:56:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] are these nationalists In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70801182138s4e057006p945445a68e4abcbc@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70801180954k43eb2f8cq336c0b3f09411894@mail.gmail.com> <703683.11741.qm@web8410.mail.in.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70801182138s4e057006p945445a68e4abcbc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: dear all given the magnitude of voilence in gujrat this is no justice until modi himself is not punished asit On 1/19/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Dear Fatima Ji , > > NamaskAr > > If you would have read my mail without any prejudice , you would have > observed that I had written that atleast few people have been *CONVICTED* > in > Gujarat. > > Muslim ruled Kashmir has created a history that no killers have been > convicted so far , and those Islamic fanatics have been responsible for > kilings of Hindus to start with.Ironically the killers like Yasin Malik is > being compared with Gandhi by *intellectuals* like you . > > God Bless > > Regards > > Pawan > > > On 1/19/08, S.Fatima wrote: > > > > Do you really think the justice has been served in > > Gujarat? And no one's living in concentration camps > > any more? > > > > And this number of Kashmiri pundits killed... you > > folks always come up with a different number. > > Sometimes one of you says 3000, then 8000, then > > 40,000. Please decide it for once. I am not making fun > > of this - I know all the pain and suffering someone > > gets, but lets make a mockery of things by hurtling > > stones at each other. > > > > > > --- Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > At least 6 years after the Gujarat riot , which > > > started after some > > > fundamentalists burnt alive scores of Hindu Pilgrims > > > returning from Ayodhya > > > , few people were convicted. > > > > > > Compare it with the case of Kashmiri Pandits , even > > > after 18 years , not > > > even a single person has been convicted in Kashmir > > > for killing of more than > > > 3000 Kashmiri pandits . Not to talk of rape and > > > arson against this > > > community. > > > > > > For that reason that the state is ruled by > > > camouflage Islamic fundamentalist > > > and Islamic groups are in majority. > > > > > > When will the justice be served to Kashmiri Pandits > > > ? At least in Modis > > > gujarat ....it has been served..... > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/18/08, S.Fatima > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Friends > > > > Look at these two news items for what's being > > > > discussed on this list right now: > > > > > > > > 12 convicted in Bilkis Bano rape case > > > > 18 Jan 2008, 1710 hrs IST,PTI > > > > MUMBAI: Twelve persons, including a police > > > official, > > > > were convicted by a special court here on Friday > > > in > > > > the Bilkis Bano gang-rape case related to the > > > > post-Godhra communal violence in Gujarat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/12_convicted_in_Bilkis_Bano_rape_case/articleshow/2711484.cms > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > 'Modi gave us a free run to do whatever we wanted' > > > > 26 Oct 2007, 0101 hrs IST,TNN > > > > > > > > NEW DELHI: "We made a complete rocket launcher > > > here... > > > > We distributed so many weapons, people were > > > shocked. > > > > We'd make them here and then test them." > > > > > > > > Here are some more such shocking 'testimonies': > > > > > > > > Suresh Richard, an accused in the Naroda Patiya > > > > episode in which over 200 Muslims were officially > > > > estimated to have been killed, said on camera that > > > > Modi visited the locality the same evening, > > > February > > > > 28, and thanked the perpetrators of the violence > > > > saying, "Aap dhanya ho... (You are blessed)." > > > > > > > > Rajendra Vyas, a senior VHP functionary who was on > > > the > > > > Sabarmati Express that was set on fire in Godhra, > > > > said, "The Muslims had played a one-day match with > > > > us... They have given us a target of 60... We have > > > to > > > > win this match at any cost, so don't stop till you > > > > have made 600 runs... Modi gave us a free run to > > > do > > > > whatever we wanted... The police were with us..." > > > > > > > > Babu Bajrangi, a Bajrang Dal activist who has been > > > in > > > > the news for blocking the carnage movie Parzania > > > from > > > > being screened in the state, revealed that police > > > > commissioner P C Pande, who has recently been > > > moved > > > > out of the DGP's post by the Election Commission, > > > had > > > > ordered that the 700-800 dead bodies at Naroda > > > Patiya > > > > be clandestinely picked up and dumped all over > > > > Ahmedabad. > > > > > > > > "The commissioner came that night and said that if > > > > there were so many dead at one place, it would > > > create > > > > trouble for him... After killing them, I felt like > > > > Maharana Pratap... We killed at will, turned the > > > place > > > > into Haldighati." > > > > > > > > Key witness in the Godhra case, Ranjitsingh Patel, > > > a > > > > petrol pump employee who deposed that he had sold > > > 140 > > > > litres of petrol to the accused on the eve of the > > > > Sabarmati episode, admits that he and his > > > colleague > > > > were both paid Rs 50,000 each by Noel Parmar, the > > > > chief investigating officer. > > > > > > > > "Noel saheb gave me fifty thousand, showed me a > > > > photograph and said I had to identify him." Two > > > BJP > > > > members, Murli Mulchandani and Kakul Pathak, who > > > > claimed to be eyewitnesses to the Godhra attack > > > and > > > > identified many of the accused, admit they were > > > not > > > > even at the station that fateful day. > > > > > > > > Mulchandani said: "I wasn't at the station, I was > > > > sleeping at home. But the police put me among the > > > > witnesses." Pathak said, "The police gave all the > > > > names. None of the eyewitnesses wrote their > > > > statements. The police did." > > > > > > > > Arvind Pandya, the government's counsel in the > > > ongoing > > > > proceedings before the Nanavati-Shah Commission > > > > probing the carnage, said that the accused had > > > nothing > > > > to fear from either of the retired judges. > > > "Nanavati > > > > is a clever man... He wants money... Of the two > > > > judges, Shah is intelligent... woh anpe wala hai > > > (he > > > > is our man)... he is sympathetic to us... Nanavati > > > is > > > > after money." > > > > > > > > Bharat Bhatt, a public prosecutor, said that he > > > was > > > > shielding the Hindu accused even as he was > > > supposed to > > > > be arguing against them. > > > > > > > > "I tell all the Hindus not to smile when they see > > > > me... not to say a word to me. I tell them that I > > > will > > > > scold them if they do so... Sometimes I deceive > > > > them... I scare them but later show my affections > > > > too..." > > > > > > > > In the Gulbarg Society massacre, accused Madan > > > Chawal > > > > gives a first-hand account of how former Congress > > > MP > > > > Ehsan Jafri was hacked limb by limb and burned. He > > > > says Jafri offered them money in return for his > > > life. > > > > "We said yes. When he came out, we took the money > > > and > > > > pounced on him." > > > > > > > > > > > > Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from > > > any browser, without > > > > download. Go to > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php/ > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > > the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click > > away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 20 14:45:22 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 01:15:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome In-Reply-To: <62cba67a0801190939u6e0443cwa12bd21e6ecf3a65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <93004.80532.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Oishik 1. Thank you for the suggestion directed to me. It does not interest me. I too have some suggestions for you. 2. You seem to be obsessed with what you have experienced and suggested. You see a lot of merit in it. 3. Charitable soul that you are, you must have promoted it to your circle of family and friends. 4. OISHIT, since there might be others of your kind who might not find your suggestions/language obscene and crude, you must convince them about it. You must provide references for them on the efficacy of your suggestion. 5. So OISHIT, I presume we will get testimonials from your mother, sisters (if any), daughters (if any) and others to whom you must have recommended the stimulation. They certainly would have respected your suggestion. Maybe you even helped them in the processes in the course of convincing them that your suggestion on means to experience pleasure is not abuse. You must mention the role played by you. Kshmendra Kaul OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: Kshmendra: That was not meant to be an abuse at all... it was meant to suggest a means to experience anal stimulation that can be orgasmic... I have tried it... so suggested that Vedavati do the same... you could also do the same... actually all the HINDUS who are obsessing about nationalism on this listserv should do the same... they'll realise that there are better and more enjoyable -- and of course more useful things in life to do than spew virulent intolerance. Suggesting means to experience pleasure is not abuse, I'm sure you'll agree. And I am overwhelmed with the kind of response my comments have attracted -- that's the way to keep the Hindu bullshitters engaged I can clearly see. If you find this mail to be crude and obscene as well -- I would've made my point. Cheers... Oishik On Jan 19, 2008 3:16 AM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: It is ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to the notice of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against abuse directed at them. Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI) was the one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and obscene manner. Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would have to say to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights" (sic). Kshmendra Kaul --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: -- OISHIK SIRCAR Scholar in Women's Rights Faculty of Law, University of Toronto 60 Harbord Street Room 016 B Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca 416.876.7926 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sun Jan 20 15:03:09 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:33:09 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. In-Reply-To: <968066.25432.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <968066.25432.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi, true, it for too long hindus have been tolerent leading to a sarcastic comment that they are cowards, may be Nehru was coward when India was divided for his greed,may be Krishna menon loved chinese vaginas more than indian ones, but now it is time that hindu understood the value of SAMA, Dana, BHEDHA are over, dandam dashagunam bhaveth. Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society. ----- Original Message ----- From: chanchal malviya Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:24 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: Javed , reader-list at sarai.net > It is time for Hindus to rise now... > And no dicussion or virtual communities can stop it... > > Swami Vivekanand said - India have enough of religion.. > And it is time now to say this to Christian and Muslims who force > conversions the same thing.. > If Sanskrit is the mother of all languages, Hinduism is the mother > of all Religions... (But two religions have in particular always > learnt to abuse their mother(Hinduism) - Islam and Christianity)... > It is time now to stop the nation from producing more Kashmirs... > It is time now to stop the non-Independent Religious India... > > So go on my dear friends as much as you like to abuse Hindus.. > It hardly matters now.. > > Ramayan is proving to be a reality, Mahabharat is a reality.. > History will also change.. > It is Hindus that have taught peace to the world.. but to do that > again, the two attackers have to be checked now.. > People are doing that.. And will do that.. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Javed > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 6:00:16 PM > Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > India's Islam > by Arun Nair > > Firstly, I must apologise if this article smacks of an impolite > urgency and prescriptive-ness. I mean not to be arrogant, but as > someone addressing you on a matter of deep concern to us all, I felt > that there was little room for ceremonial apologies before every > sentence. Also, as an Indian middle-class Hindu who grew up in the > Babri-masjid 90s, it is easy for me to say some of the things I say > here. > > Secondly, I address you, the reader, as an Indian citizen, not as a > saintly Kabir or Gandhi preaching love for humanity. Our collective > interests are being threatened by communal forces from within and > without. WE MUST ACT. We must not merely lament about our respective > versions of helplessnesses and others' faults. We are free today > because India's greatest generation shook off the ghosts that > bedevilled them, and took action to protect our interests. I implore > you to continue that legacy. > > Thirdly, while I will go into what in my opinion are highly plausible > theories of Indian nationhood and nationalism, my primary aim here is > not to write any treatise on politics or sociology, but to protect our > rights to belong equally to India – our common ancestral land – as > Indians, and as free, dignified humans. > > Fourthly, my ideas will be presented largely based on first > principles, also known as common-sense. > > My thesis is this: India must boldly assert its claim on Islamic > civilisation in the subcontinent. That is the key to end our communal > woes. > > This does not mean that India must become Islamic, or that Indian > Muslims must be somehow Hinduised. The idea, instead, is to campaign > relentlessly for India's Islamic civilisational authenticity. > > In the Indian psyche, Pakistan stands for Islam. Sadly for us and > admittedly in a weaker form, Islam is also synonymous with Pakistan > and everything Pakistani. This wouldn't have been so bad if Pakistan > wasn't, well, un-Indian. We must use every tool at our disposal as a > people to destroy the entrenched idea of Pakistani ownership of > subcontinental Islam from within India. More importantly, this idea > must be attacked from without it, because that is where it originates. > > Our chief weapon to eliminate Islam-Pakistan hyphenation from the > subcontinent will be an authentic claim: the centre of Islamic > civilisation in South Asia has always been undivided India, and after > partition, India is its natural primary heir. The fact that a few > million Muslims left India during partition to settle in our erstwhile > outlying provinces doesn't change this. Neither does the fact that the > Indian people chose a progressive, secular, democratic polity for > their republic. > > In our minds and in the world's view, subcontinental Islam is under > Pakistani occupation. The historical Indo-centric nature of > subcontinental Islam should be used to throw off this psychological > yoke. I urge Indians to rally together once again as our greatest > generation did to protect our collective interests as the people of > India. I urge friends of India all over the world to join us. Both in > terms of geography and spirit, Islam in the subcontinent that > coexisted and flourished alongside Indic cultures, has always been > more Indian than Pakistani. If any single country represents > subcontinental Islam as it historically was, it is India. Not > Pakistan. > > India's Mughals. India's Qutub Minar, Gol Gumaz, and Taj Mahal. > India's Kabir. India's Tipu Sultan, Shah Jahan, Akbar, and, why not, > Aurangazeb. India's Urdu. India's Ghalib and Khusro. India's Delhi, > Lucknow, Mysore, Hyderabad, Malabar, and Agra. > > Good history has to be deliberately written > > The people of India inherited thousands of years of history and > associated baggage that we didn't really ask for. > > Keep in mind though that history is not a dead object - it is > unfurling even as you read this. We may not be able to change what > happened in India 200 years ago. But 200 years from now when people > look back, they will see the Indian history that our generation wrote. > It becomes then our duty, both as Indians and as sensible humans, to > write it well. > > It is a great privilege to deliberately be able to write a part of > something grand like the history of India. The first generation of > Indians who did a coordinated job of writing our history was the one > that won us our independence – our "freedom-generation". They could > have attempted to write their Indian chapter any way they wanted to. > We could have had a dark, China-style communism, for instance. But, > given the Indian context, the freedom-generation chose the most > egalitarian, elegant, and humanist theme they could come up with: a > secular, liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, that takes its > strength from its inherent pluralism and its inheritance of one of > mankind's greatest civilisations. > > The freedom-generation's legacy for us is the deliberate and > intelligent manner in which they forged an Indian national identity. > Thanks to their efforts, our nationality is a solid concept. An Indian > from Karnataka has a robust nationalistic bond with Indians say from > Punjab, Gujarat, Assam, or Delhi. Regardless of what languages we > speak, we all recognise Marathi, Tamil, Bengali and Telugu as Indian > languages – ancestral assets that all Indians collectively own. > > It is a mistake, however, to think that the nation-building task they > began is complete. Indian nationalism is not an idea frozen in time, > but an evolving one. We, the successors of India's freedom-generation, > must exercise our prerogative to define its finer contours and bring > in new ideas to enrich it. Furthermore, we have an obligation to both > our founding fathers and India's posterity to do this while being true > to our quintessential Indian-ness, the just, egalitarian nature of our > country as embodied in our constitution. > > Given that India's situation is not as pressing as it once was, new > nationalist leaders – giants of the stature of Mahatma Gandhi, Khan > Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Subhash Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh, Jawaharlal > Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad or Vallabhai Patel – may be difficult to > emerge. There is no need to though. We succeeded them, and we must > take this task upon ourselves. The freedom-generation watches over us > in the form of our fraternity as Indians which they moulded at a great > cost, and our constitution. > > Indian Nationalism - the idea of Indian brotherhood > > Amidst all this noisy consternation of Taslima Nasrin, Babri-masjid, > BJP-Congress etc., its easy to lose sight of the really big pictures. > Consider, for instance, this question: what really is the essence of > Indian nationalism? Why do we all feel so closely tied to India > and to > each other? > > My answer is that, to put it simply, without the land we call India, > Indians either have no identity, or very anaemic identities. All > Indians share this same curious relation to India. > When we are born to the same human mother, we are brothers. Our > constitution formed by our freedom-generation explicitly asserts > fraternity among the Indian people. Fraternity – brotherhood. In what > sense are we brothers? > > Indians are brothers in the sense that the motherland that birthed my > identity, also birthed yours. India is our ancestral land, and we > should be proud of everything associated with it. Everything in India, > its religions, its good and its bad, its languages, its glories and > struggles, its rivers, its emperors, its heroes and villains, > everything – is intricately weaved into our consciousnesses of who we > are, where we come from, what our place in this world is, and how > other humans see us. Without that identity, we are crippled. > > Ours is no ordinary brotherhood. Indian people didn't come into being > merely a few centuries ago. We are an ancient civilisation, and what > we have is a civlisational brotherhood – a bond arising from all of > our belonging to the civilisation that unfolded in the same land, > India. That brotherhood was formally declared through the constitution > in 1949, but it existed much before that. Before our greatest > generation gave it a concrete wording in the 20th century, it was well > moulded in the crucible that is our land, in the fire of the previous > several dozen, if not more, centuries. > > Every country of the world has stories that define their national > essences. What is the most essential feature of Indian > nationalism? It > is our Indian identity – our being tied to India, and our > civilisational brotherhood to each other in being bonded so. All > Indians, regardless of their religion or language, has this bond with > India and with each other. > Indians must pause for a while and think why our anthem's going over > our landmarks is so emotive. Or why Hindu-Muslim-Sikh-Christian > insignia are powerful. Or why merely thinking of our history, or our > Kerala, Karnataka, Maharashtra, UP, Punjab and Bengal moves all of us > equally. > > It's because they remind us of our organic ties to India, and the > brotherhood that we have with each other. This natural bond given to > us by our glorious and at times bloody history is important. If we > don't uphold this bond with the ferocity that our greatest generation > did, if we don't use it to protect our common interests, our country > will remain weak. > > Our country's nature > > What is the nature of our country? What does it mean for something > to be Indian? > For one, if all of us Indians could get together today and declare in > one voice that India stands for certain values, then that would be an > authoritative statement. India is what Indians say it is. If, say, the > people of the then-Indian civilisation – Hindus, Muslims, Christians, > Buddhists, Sikhs, and Jains – had made such a statement 400 years ago > and preserved its spirit through centuries, that would have probably > have been one of the greatest Indian texts. > > If you will recall, a very similar event actually did happen in 1949, > when the founding fathers of the Indian republic adopted, enacted, and > gave to ourselves - the sovereign people of India - our constitution. > The preamble reads, > > "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India > into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure > to all its citizens: > JUSTICE, social, economic and political; > LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; > EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among them all > FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and > integrity of the Nation. > IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, > do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION." > > In an absolute sense, the values of justice, liberty, and equality > have an intuitive appeal to all humans everywhere. However, the > formidable authority of our constitution comes from the crushed but > proud people who paid a very high price for our right to live as > equals and as dignified humans in India. We must take their word for > what India is – they must have known and dreamt quite a bit about it. > > India's greatest generation definitely realised that divisivism, > self-doubt, and other demons from our past would haunt the republic > they formed. Which is why the constitution is important. It helps us > protect our country from ourselves. > > The Constitution. Indian Nationalism. How we will defend India. > > Those who doubt the moral power of our freedom-generation, our > constitutional ethos, and Indian nationalism need only look at > Pakistan, which renounced all these in its attempts not to be seen as > Indian. Pakistan's leaders, in trying to defend their divisve national > philosophy, forced the most horrible bankruptcy on its people. > > Rather than using Indian nationalism and the constitution to tackle > our communal issues, I am appalled at the general trend to merely > lament that India is on its way to being declared an non-secular state > - the hundreds of millions of Indians fully intent on preventing this > notwithstanding. > > Pakistan-style Islamism, Ummah-isation of Hinduism, alienation of > Indian Muslims > > There are three major trends in India today that are relevant to > our topic. > > Firstly, India has very serious conflicts of interest with Pakistan. > We have gone to war with that country several times. Its society has > issues with radicalisation and a general religious orthodoxy. Its > regimes have relentlessly attacked India's internal fault-lines over > the past few decades in the name of Islam. Tens of thousands of Indian > soldiers have died defending our country against them. It is > distinctly un-Indian and anti-Indian. > > Secondly, Hinduism is, for the lack of a better word, Ummah-ising, and > this at times takes horrifyingly militant forms. I, given my personal > biases, am all for Hindu solidarity and abolishing pseudo-secularism. > However, an argument for Hindu-solidarity should not be allowed to > take the form of an un-Indian religionalism that goes against the very > spirit of India. > > Thirdly, Indian Muslims feel alienated from their own country. In > India, Pakistan is synonymous with Islam. Unfortunately, Islam is also > weakly synonymous with Pakistan. This has significantly undermined > Indian Muslims' political standing in India vis-a-vis their fellow > citizens. > > The havoc all this has wreaked on our society must not be ignored. > India was home to one of humanity's greatest Islamic cultures for well > over 1000 years. It is not, by any means, a dead part of our > culture - > nearly 160 million Indians are Muslims, several national icons are > Muslims, mosques and Islamic architecture litter the country, and > Muslim holidays are shared by all. And yet, to a lot of Indians, Islam > doesn't feel Indian, but Pakistani. Despite their respective religious > majorities, it is odd that Buddhism doesn't feel Sri Lankan, or > Hinduism itself, Nepali. > > The partition of India and secular India's deprivation of its Islamic > authenticity > > Has anyone thought what has actually happened here? Why is it that in > India, an ancient civilisational land which has a unique Islamic > culture just like Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, Islam is seen as somehow > foreign? That is not because of Islam's being inconsistent with India > – 1000 years and more of history and our combined freedom struggle > should have proven this by now. > > During partition, founders of Pakistan expropriated the subcontinent's > Islamic identity for defining their nation, Pakistan. Pakistan's > struggle to keep its ideology alive has robbed us of our Islamic > authenticity. India's secular nature not-withstanding, the ardour with > which Pakistan argued itsideology and pushed its exclusivist national > philosophy within the larger Islamic community ensured that it gained > some traction in the Indian society. Pakistan's military conflicts > with "Hindu" India only amplified this. > > It only takes a few of decades of intense activity for a new Zeitgeist > to take root in a society. Consider denazification of Germany, China's > turn into capitalism, and India's own economic liberalisation. 30 > years – that is all it takes for a young generation to grow up shaped > by a pervasive ideology. > > Though quite smaller than India, Pakistan is by no means a tiny > nation. It is the world's 6th most populous country, one of its major > economies, and a prominent player during the cold war. One cannot find > fault with it - Pakistan had to defend its national philosophy. It has > expended a tremendous amount of national effort over the last 60 years > in achieving a strong association between subcontinental Islam and > itself. > > They have succeeded splendidly. Islam in the subcontinent today is > seen as prominently Pakistani and India's secular fabric warped by > that perception. Pakistan is an Islamic nation - this somehow gives > them a stronger claim on everything Islamic in the subcontinent. The > world simply does not recognise India's Islamic authenticity, and > neither do many Indians within. India continues to be associated > primarily with Hinduism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, but not Islam. > > Does religious brotherhood entirely negate the organic bonds a human > has to his ancestral land and its history, and to his fellow humans > who share the same bonds as him? I don't really know. What I do know > is that this is not the principle on which the Indian republic was > founded, and its definitely not an Indian value. Religious supremacism > and breaking up of Indian people are un-Indian philosophies. It goes > against the very spirit of our freedom struggle, nationalism, and our > constitution. > > Indians must remember that new Pakistani generations do not even have > the same right to speak for India's Muslims that their earlier > generations might have had. Indian democracy has proven this > unnecessary anyway. > > Indo-Pak culture-drift and attempts at an unnatural bonhomie > > There is a delusion among the political class and Indian people that > our shared past can be used to achieve friendly relations between > India and Pakistan. My view is that in doing so, we are only > reinforcing the internal Islam-Pakistan hyphenation. > > When historical developments asunder a people, over a period of time > the newly formed groups drift increasingly farther from one another. > Once upon time, Myanmar and Sri Lanka were part of India, just like > Pakistan and Bangladesh. Afghanistan was part of several Indian > empires. Today, though at a national level we have very cordial > relations, they are distinctly unfamiliar to us. > > Such a natural drift has definitely taken place between India and > Pakistan. The strongest bond between us that keeps us in each others' > national memories is not anything positive that we share, but the > acrid legacy of partition. It's hard for me as an Indian, for > instance, to imagine such an Islamism taking hold of Pakistan if it > were under Akbar's rule. That is, if it were under genuinely > Indian-style Islamic rule. > > I am not suggesting we should actively pursue enmity with Pakistan or > vilify it. However, its being clumped together with Indian Muslims is > simply not healthy for India. What has Pakistan's 'leadership' of > subcontinental Muslims, its advocacy of religious supremacism within, > and its enmity with India effectively accomplished? It has robbed > India of its genuine Islamic authenticity in the world's eyes, and > caused non-Muslim Indians to reject the culture of an un-Indian enemy. > Pakistan has highlighted Indian Muslims' being Islamic and =3E consistently de-emphasized their being Indian. > > Pursuing an unnatural bonhomie with Pakistan and stressing our > similarities with them will only weaken our case for our differences, > which are very real. To uphold our national interest, we must assert > and amplify these differences. > > Replace Islam-Pakistan hyphenation with Islam-India hyphenation in the > subcontinent > > I urge Indians to spearhead a change of perception of Islam in the > subcontinent. Anything that prevents Indian Muslims' fully asserting > their claim on India as Indian citizens is against the national > interest. The strong association in India between subcontinental Islam > and the present day un-Indian Pakistan must go. > > It is tempting to claim that all South Asian countries share Islamic > civilization equally. It may be polite and civil to do so, and it may > even have some historical merit, but it's a weak claim for our > purposes. It doesn't have the necessary boldness and self-conviction > to be effective. It also doesn't forcefully argue for India's Islamic > authenticity. Our aim is to end Islam-Pakistan hyphenation for the > welfare of a billion humans, not to be fair observers of history. We > must hence push the strongest nationalistic claim possible: Islam in > the subcontinent is Indian, and it always has been. > > Indian Islam never 'went' anywhere – it is alive and well amidst us. > Our nationalism and constitution are guarantees that it will > thrive if > Pakistan would let go of it. When the world thinks of Hinduism in > South Asia, it thinks of India. Sikhism, it thinks of India. Buddhism, > India. When it thinks of Islam in South Asia, it must think of India. > Everyone in the subcontinent will be better off. Everyone. > > The idea that Islam in the subcontinent is primarily Indian can gain > currency only through a concerted nationalist campaign. No apologies > should be made for such a movement. No one need be convinced of its > proponents' "patriotism". The obvious worthiness of the cause, its > truth, and its urgency are justifications enough. > > What ideas might such a campaign seek to make current? > > The countries in our region share an intertwined, messy history. We > have a lot in common - languages, religions, culture, quirks - all > part of our common and colourful heritage. > > However, if our historical and religious assets must be divided > amongst us, then the worthiest inheritor of Islamic heritage in the > subcontinent can only be India. Not Pakistan, not Bangladesh, not Sri > Lanka, not Myanmar, not Nepal. India is the only nation that has been > true to the historical spirit of Indian Islam – that of flourishing > alongside other Indic faiths in India. > > Slay our demons ourselves > > Has it ever struck you that in our country, we have a vicious > circularity of the following sort: we feel dismayed that the > country/political class/leadership has done nothing for us; a form of > apathy and resignation sets in; the country/political class/leadership > continues to do nothing; we feel increasingly more dismayed. > > We are a democracy. We individually must act. Things won't happen > if we don't. > I urge Indians to assert India's secularism and nationalism to fight > alienation of the Muslim community from Indian mainstream. This battle > is the easier one to win – there are hundreds of millions of > reasonable Indians, the Indian constitution, the liberal press, the > legacy of our freedom-generation, and truth and justice on our side. > > I also urge Indians to fight Pakistani supremacy of subcontinental > Islam from the outside. That is the root of all our problems. That is > the key battle in India's war against communalism. We must learn to > say, "Thanks, but no thanks. I understand what you mean, but this is > not really true" to anyone who stresses commonalities of any sort in > the subcontinent. > > Who will go first? > > Based on the concept of ownership of our destiny, what are the answers > to these questions: > > "But how can non-Muslims claim that Islam in the subcontinent is > Indian when it is represented by Pakistan and Indian Muslims > themselves imply so?" > > "How can Indian Muslims make the Indo-centric claim when there is a > genuine sense of their alienation in India and rest of Indian society > accuses them of siding with Pakistan. We cannot move against Pakstani > Muslims. There is a lot in common between us." > > I don't know! I am definitely going, in my own way. That I know. I > will not ever treat any Indian by as automatically allied with a > foreign, inimical power. I will continue making people aware of the > need to end the subcontinental Islam-Pakistan association and replace > it with Islam-India. > > We shall NOT vilify. We shall have faith. > > Indians should stop vilifying each other. Not because it would be > saintly to do so, but because it only weakens our unity. > > Our nationalism and our constitution are solid stuff. Our greatest > generation did their job well. If we must challenge our fellow > Indians, invoke these instruments. Face with stead-fast stoicism any > slurs, any accusations of you being an anti-Indian Muslim or a > communal Hindutvawadi. Let the diatribe die down. Repeat your > arguments invoking our nationalism, constitution, and your reasoning > again. Do not ask anyone to 'prove' his or her patriotism. It's > demeaning to do so. > > Satyameva Jayate – truth alone triumphs. If you are right, you will > win. Have faith in our country and in every Indians' goodness and > genuine attachment to their land. > > Augmenting India's ideological basis > > Earlier I mentioned that our work on Indian nationhood is not a frozen > process, but a continuing one. We can and must correct any earlier > mistakes that continue to torment India's communal harmony. > > If the greatest challenge the freedom-generation faced was ending the > British rule and forming a stable republic, the greatest challenge > before us is to take back leadership of subcontinental Islam from > Pakistan. Our challenge is to do this without sacrificing India's > secular nature. > > To tackle our new communal challenges in the 21st century, I propose > the following: > 1. Secularism will continue to remain the Indian union's lynch > pin. It > should not, however, require any particular religious group's giving > up their right to assert religious solidarity. We should genuinely > address any concerns about hypocrisy in the name of secularism. > > 2. India is a mature concept, and we should actively use it to tackle > the challenges before us. Secularism is an integral part of our > nationhood and a historically irreversible development. It follows > that religionalism – wherever it is practised – is distinctly > un-Indian. Within India, it is also anti-Indian in the sense that they > weaken India and goes against its spirit. > > 3. The natural heir to Islamic civilisation in the subcontinent is > India. Subcontinental Islam has always been an Indian phenomenon. > Pakistan's oft-reinforced association with Indian Muslims must be > destroyed. > > 4. India's brotherhood with its neighbours is dying. Soon there will > be an Indian generation which doesn't have a single Indian born before > partition. Every single human in the subcontinent would have been born > in the countries as they existed after partition. The continuing > attempts to maintain an unnatural bonhomie with India's hostile > neighbours is not a tenable project - Pakistan has moved too far away > from what was once India. > > Indian Muslims. India's Islam. > > A shockingly large amount of our national energy is wasted in > countering the effects of Islam-Pakistan hyphenation in the > subcontinent. > > The solution is simple. Reclaim the part of Indian identity that was > robbed of us some 60 years back. If India is Hindu, then for similar > reasons, it is also Buddhist, Sikh, Christian - and Islamic. Purported > authority over sub-continental Islam by other entities in the > subcontinent is an outrageous farce that must be ended right away. > > There is no obligation to do this meekly. India doesn't have > merely a > substantial claim or merely an equal claim. It simply has more right > to subcontinental Islamic heritage than anyone else by an > overwhelmingly large margin, period. We must use it for our national > well-being. > > Who can assert subcontinental Islam's Indian nature boldly, loudly, > without an iota of self-doubt or hesitation? Who needs this to be done > most urgently? Who suffers from a deprivation of their right to belong > to India the most? The Hindus? Sikhs? Buddhists? Christians? Jains? > Clearly not. Who else? > > The Indian Muslims. The others are left distinctly poorer and their > country's communal harmony stressed, but their Indian genuineness is > unquestioned within India and the world over. There is not going > to be > an un-Indian leader-nation for India's Sikhs, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists > and Christians in our neighbourhood any time soon. > > http://indianmuslims.in/indias-islam/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping_________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sun Jan 20 15:12:10 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:42:10 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? In-Reply-To: <4fcaee300801190143o5b18ac5cu5d5438d560bb3960@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70801180954k43eb2f8cq336c0b3f09411894@mail.gmail.com> <"30 2033.36819.qm"@web60619.mail.yahoo.com> <"6b79f1a70801182146g5509bae3p925554ce c542ff41"@mail.gmail.com> <4fcaee300801190048j5a06421q906f83e80e6ceb13@mail.gmail.com> <4fcaee300801190143o5b18ac5cu5d5438d560bb3960@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Same is the case when Theesta and the likes with "secular" media claim "thousands of " muslims bucthered in Gujarath, but who bothers about truth when one can get saudi riyals to defend the traitors of the nation with highly paid "criminal" lawyers. ? In riot both hindus and muslims loose their beloved, many lives are lost, but this has origin in creating the Pakistan and then not encouraging the indian muslims to go the land and nation they created for faith, after promising to live in India like brothers to their society. ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Wali Arifi Date: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:58 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? To: reader-list > Dear all, > > > > Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many > lessons. One > being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate figures when > it comes to > human loss. > > > > But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the loss. In > fact accuracy > adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. In essence > multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to take refuge in > propagandaand cloth the truth with it. > > > > Mr Durrani in his post has said: "….for killing of more than 3000 > Kashmiripandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this > community." > > > I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What is Mr Durrani > trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of killings? > Is he > helping the community by exaggerating the figure? > > > > According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri > pandits were > killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. > > > > It has to be understood that multiplying figures is dangerously > counterproductive for those who call themselves as the champions and > custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget about the > use of > words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing and so on... > > > > Kashmir's history will be written by those who have dreamed of a 'just > Kashmir'. > > > > Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or trying > to create > it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into what it has > actuallybeen in all practice... **Majoritarianism. > > Regards, > > Wali > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sun Jan 20 15:13:36 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:43:36 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? In-Reply-To: <4fcaee300801190048j5a06421q906f83e80e6ceb13@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70801180954k43eb2f8cq336c0b3f09411894@mail.gmail.com> <"30 2033.36819.qm"@web60619.mail.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70801182146g5509bae3p925554cec542ff41@mail.gmail.com> <4fcaee300801190048j5a06421q906f83e80e6ceb13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Figure matters only if it is 36 - 24 -36 ? :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: Wali Arifi Date: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:38 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? To: Pawan Durani Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear all, > > > > Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many > lessons. One > being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate figures when > it comes to > human loss. > > > > But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the loss. In > fact accuracy > adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. In essence > multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to take refuge in > propagandaand cloth the truth with it. > > > > Mr Durrani in his post has said: "….for killing of more than 3000 > Kashmiripandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this > community." > > > I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What is Mr Durrani > trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of killings? > Is he > helping the community by exaggerating the figure? > > > > According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri > pandits were > killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. > > > > It has to be understood that multiplying figures is dangerously > counterproductive for those who call themselves as the champions and > custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget about the > use of > words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing and so on... > > > > Kashmir's history will be written by those who have dreamed of a 'just > Kashmir'. > > > > Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or trying > to create > it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into what it has > actuallybeen in all practice...* *Majoritarianism. > > Regards, > > Wali > > On Jan 19, 2008 11:16 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Dear Fazli , > > > > NamaskAr > > > > You are right . There is no point in narrating the stories to me > . For I > > have been a victim of Islamic terrorism in Kashmir . > > > > If Kashmiri muslims are suffering today, which I do not disagree > , it is > > because of their own stand. They welcomed back the Jihadis from > Pakistan> with sweets . They glorified *terrorism*. They did not > utter a word when > > Kashmiri Hindus were killed. > > > > Even after so many years they still did not mind giving a > rousing rception > > to terrorists like Bitta Karate who has admitted to selective > killings of > > 40 > > Kashmiri pandits. > > > > Fazli , do you still think there is a point telling me stories. > > > > God Bless > > > > Regards > > > > Pawan > > > > PS : I have some good friends still in Kashmir , and the reason > is that > > they > > admit to what went wrong and not one who try to distort history. > > > > > > On 1/19/08, gowhar fazli wrote: > > > > > > What has made you believe no one got punished in > > > Kashmir. Kashmir is a virtual hell where the whole > > > Muslim population is under imprisonment with torture > > > and humiliation 24X7 for the last seventeen years. > > > You have to be grossly insensitive not to notice > > > this... despite the fact that migration of Pandits > > > whether under state patronage or compulsion would not > > > have been a cake-walk. In Kashmir, it is not just the > > > miscreants who may have harmed Pandits or damaged > > > public property or the intolerant 'fundamentalists' > > > who are being punished... (though you will find many > > > more times the Pandit population of such people > > > rotting in jails, killed without impunity, tortured or > > > 'disappeared'... ) Punishment in Kashmir is for > > > everybody without exception (even the stooges of the > > > state are not safe from itself). > > > > > > The biggest worry for you and me are the generations > > > that are being brought up under these inhuman > > > conditions while your kids grow up in decent > > > neighbourhoods (I presume). With military to kick > > > them around everyday, you cannot expect them to grow > > > to love the state or YOU for not caring to change > > > this. They will especially hate you for trying to > > > privilege injustice faced by the group you cling on to > > > so dearly, while justifying the injustice faced by > > > those whom you would rather wish dead. > > > > > > In the name of militancy and fundamentalism the whole > > > Kashmiri Muslim population has been successfully > > > criminalized. Kashmiri Muslims are not faced with the > > > choice of being 'patriotic' or 'unpatriotic'. This > > > choice has already been made for them by you and the > > > state. > > > > > > I seriously wonder if there is any point in telling > > > you all this. > > > > > > > > > --- Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > > At least 6 years after the Gujarat riot , which > > > > started after some > > > > fundamentalists burnt alive scores of Hindu Pilgrims > > > > returning from Ayodhya > > > > , few people were convicted. > > > > > > > > Compare it with the case of Kashmiri Pandits , even > > > > after 18 years , not > > > > even a single person has been convicted in Kashmir > > > > for killing of more than > > > > 3000 Kashmiri pandits . Not to talk of rape and > > > > arson against this > > > > community. > > > > > > > > For that reason that the state is ruled by > > > > camouflage Islamic fundamentalist > > > > and Islamic groups are inmajority. > > > > > > > > When will the justice be served to Kashmiri Pandits > > > > ? At least in Modis > > > > gujarat ....it has been served..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/18/08, S.Fatima > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Friends > > > > > Look at these two news items for what's being > > > > > discussed on this list right now: > > > > > > > > > > 12 convicted in Bilkis Bano rape case > > > > > 18 Jan 2008, 1710 hrs IST,PTI > > > > > MUMBAI: Twelve persons, including a police > > > > official, > > > > > were convicted by a special court here on Friday > > > > in > > > > > the Bilkis Bano gang-rape case related to the > > > > > post-Godhra communal violence in Gujarat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/12_convicted_in_Bilkis_Bano_rape_case/articleshow/2711484.cms> > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > 'Modi gave us a free run to do whatever we wanted' > > > > > 26 Oct 2007, 0101 hrs IST,TNN > > > > > > > > > > NEW DELHI: "We made a complete rocket launcher > > > > here... > > > > > We distributed so many weapons, people were > > > > shocked. > > > > > We'd make them here and then test them." > > > > > > > > > > Here are some more such shocking 'testimonies': > > > > > > > > > > Suresh Richard, an accused in the Naroda Patiya > > > > > episode in which over 200 Muslims were officially > > > > > estimated to have been killed, said on camera that > > > > > Modi visited the locality the same evening, > > > > February > > > > > 28, and thanked the perpetrators of the violence > > > > > saying, "Aap dhanya ho... (You are blessed)." > > > > > > > > > > Rajendra Vyas, a senior VHP functionary who was on > > > > the > > > > > Sabarmati Express that was set on fire in Godhra, > > > > > said, "The Muslims had played a one-day match with > > > > > us... They have given us a target of 60... We have > > > > to > > > > > win this match at any cost, so don't stop till you > > > > > have made 600 runs... Modi gave us a free run to > > > > do > > > > > whatever we wanted... The police were with us..." > > > > > > > > > > Babu Bajrangi, a Bajrang Dal activist who has been > > > > in > > > > > the news for blocking the carnage movie Parzania > > > > from > > > > > being screened in the state, revealed that police > > > > > commissioner P C Pande, who has recently been > > > > moved > > > > > out of the DGP's post by the Election Commission, > > > > had > > > > > ordered that the 700-800 dead bodies at Naroda > > > > Patiya > > > > > be clandestinely picked up and dumped all over > > > > > Ahmedabad. > > > > > > > > > > "The commissioner came that night and said that if > > > > > there were so many dead at one place, it would > > > > create > > > > > trouble for him... After killing them, I felt like > > > > > Maharana Pratap... We killed at will, turned the > > > > place > > > > > into Haldighati." > > > > > > > > > > Key witness in the Godhra case, Ranjitsingh Patel, > > > > a > > > > > petrol pump employee who deposed that he had sold > > > > 140 > > > > > litres of petrol to the accused on the eve of the > > > > > Sabarmati episode, admits that he and his > > > > colleague > > > > > were both paid Rs 50,000 each by Noel Parmar, the > > > > > chief investigating officer. > > > > > > > > > > "Noel saheb gave me fifty thousand, showed me a > > > > > photograph and said I had to identify him." Two > > > > BJP > > > > > members, Murli Mulchandani and Kakul Pathak, who > > > > > claimed to be eyewitnesses to the Godhra attack > > > > and > > > > > identified many of the accused, admit they were > > > > not > > > > > even at the station that fateful day. > > > > > > > > > > Mulchandani said: "I wasn't at the station, I was > > > > > sleeping at home. But the police put me among the > > > > > witnesses." Pathak said, "The police gave all the > > > > > names. None of the eyewitnesses wrote their > > > > > statements. The police did." > > > > > > > > > > Arvind Pandya, the government's counsel in the > > > > ongoing > > > > > proceedings before the Nanavati-Shah Commission > > > > > probing the carnage, said that the accused had > > > > nothing > > > > > to fear from either of the retired judges. > > > > "Nanavati > > > > > is a clever man... He wants money... Of the two > > > > > judges, Shah is intelligent... woh anpe wala hai > > > > (he > > > > > is our man)... he is sympathetic to us... Nanavati > > > > is > > > > > after money." > > > > > > > > > > Bharat Bhatt, a public prosecutor, said that he > > > > was > > > > > shielding the Hindu accused even as he was > > > > supposed to > > > > > be arguing against them. > > > > > > > > > > "I tell all the Hindus not to smile when they see > > > > > me... not to say a word to me. I tell them that I > > > > will > > > > > scold them if they do so... Sometimes I deceive > > > > > them... I scare them but later show my affections > > > > > too..." > > > > > > > > > > In the Gulbarg Society massacre, accused Madan > > > > Chawal > > > > > gives a first-hand account of how former Congress > > > > MP > > > > > Ehsan Jafri was hacked limb by limb and burned. He > > > > > says Jafri offered them money in return for his > > > > life. > > > > > "We said yes. When he came out, we took the money > > > > and > > > > > pounced on him." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from > > > > any browser, without > > > > > download. Go to > > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php/ > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > > > the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _____________=5F___________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > > > the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > > > > subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the balance of nature decrees that a super- > abundance of > > > dreams is paid for by a growing potential for nightmares. > > > > > > Love is an act of endless forgiveness, a tender look which > becomes a > > > habit. > > > > > > Peter Ustinov > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________> > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sun Jan 20 15:05:54 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:35:54 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome In-Reply-To: <93004.80532.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <62cba67a0801190939u6e0443cwa12bd21e6ecf3a65@mail.gmail.com> <93004.80532.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Well said, with lal salaaam. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:48 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: sarai list > Oishik > > 1. Thank you for the suggestion directed to me. It does not > interest me. I too have some suggestions for you. > > 2. You seem to be obsessed with what you have experienced and > suggested. You see a lot of merit in it. > > 3. Charitable soul that you are, you must have promoted it to > your circle of family and friends. > > 4. OISHIT, since there might be others of your kind who might > not find your suggestions/language obscene and crude, you must > convince them about it. You must provide references for them on > the efficacy of your suggestion. > > 5. So OISHIT, I presume we will get testimonials from your > mother, sisters (if any), daughters (if any) and others to whom > you must have recommended the stimulation. They certainly would > have respected your suggestion. Maybe you even helped them in the > processes in the course of convincing them that your suggestion on > means to experience pleasure is not abuse. You must mention the > role played by you. > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > Kshmendra: > > That was not meant to be an abuse at all... it was meant to > suggest a means to experience anal stimulation that can be > orgasmic... I have tried it... so suggested that Vedavati do the > same... you could also do the same... actually all the HINDUS who > are obsessing about nationalism on this listserv should do the > same... they'll realise that there are better and more enjoyable -- > and of course more useful things in life to do than spew virulent > intolerance. Suggesting means to experience pleasure is not abuse, > I'm sure you'll agree. > > And I am overwhelmed with the kind of response my comments have > attracted -- that's the way to keep the Hindu bullshitters engaged > I can clearly see. > > If you find this mail to be crude and obscene as well -- I > would've made my point. > > Cheers... > > Oishik > > On Jan 19, 2008 3:16 AM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > It is ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to > the notice of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against > abuse directed at them. > > Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI) > was the one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and > obscene manner. > > Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would > have to say to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights" > (sic). > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try it now. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > -- > OISHIK SIRCAR > > Scholar in Women's Rights > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > 60 Harbord Street > Room 016 B > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > 416.876.7926 > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try it now. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sun Jan 20 15:08:39 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:38:39 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] road-show to prove you belong to the nation In-Reply-To: <209147.94392.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <236270.38115.qm@web90411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <209147.94392.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi, It is not that, for muslims they have only mullas as leaders and they are in the vice grip of these mullas who dictate terms of life for them unlike any other hindu who lives life with his way of life. Secondly, muslims have only leaders who are foisted on them that are not popular choice either. ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Yousuf Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 1:01 am Subject: [Reader-list] road-show to prove you belong to the nation To: chanchal malviya , Zainab Bawa , Pawan Durani Cc: reader-list list > Dear Chanchal > I fail to understand, why should only Muslims need to > to a roadshow to prove they belong to the nation. Show > me one ordinary Indian Muslim who is happy about > terrorism today (even from Kashmir). For them to do a > roadshow against terrorism means that they first > identify with it (for being a Muslim) and then condemn > it. > > I condemn terrorism as much as you do, but what will I > achieve with a roadshow. I think we need to work > together against this menace if we condemn it > together. And to do that, we need to first reduce our > own differences and prejudices. > > People are dropping topics on this conversation list > because they realize they are not going to change each > other's minds however hard they try. Some people seem > to have joined this list saying "hey look, here is a > list of psuedo-secularists, Islam-lovers and > anti-nationalists. Lets hurl some stones at them". Is > that true or not? > > If you come with that kind of attitude, no one's going > to take you seriously. But if are serious about > discussing our current problems and finding possible > solutions, why can't we start by first respecting each > other and working together. Most of the dialogues of > this kind end up in a chicken-n-egg situation here. No > one can prove who started it all, or who has been the > worst victim/culprit, so there is no point in > continuing to hurl stones at each other. We seem to be > wasting our time and leading to more and more hatred. > > But during these debates, I often wonder how would it > be if all these people were sitting together, across > the table, more purposefully. I am sure the debate > would lead to something more concrete - at least a > different sort of trust/mistrust if you could see the > person you are talking to. To me, some of these > internet debates sound too hollow, since there is no > accountability. Why doesn't anyone think of a road > show to discuss how to resolve these issues together? > > (its sad that the real road-show, that of the Manipuri > women, with which the debate started, has got > completely sidelined) > > Yousuf > > > > --- chanchal malviya > wrote: > > > The same applies to you... You also produce things > > without any authentication... > > I requested to stop talking about issues.. and start > > a culture of talking about Solutions... > > I called to produce ideas and strategies that can > > help the nation... > > > > there is no reply... The same issues (Issues that is > > against Muslims) are again and again dropped in the > > network... > > The intention is clear from this.. and hence I am > > hard to answer... > > > > And mind it, if we go to the basics of Muslims (the > > Quran).. the reality would be even dangerour... > > which never applies for Hindus... > > But it is not good to go into those things... > > > > I have ever repeated and say again - Let the Muslims > > do one Road Show against Terrorists, if they think > > they belong to this Nation... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Zainab Bawa > > To: Pawan Durani > > Cc: reader-list list > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 8:18:14 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to > > stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against > > Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping_________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sun Jan 20 15:14:33 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:44:33 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome In-Reply-To: <62cba67a0801190939u6e0443cwa12bd21e6ecf3a65@mail.gmail.com> References: <411844.9395.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <62cba67a0801190939u6e0443cwa12bd21e6ecf3a65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: That is how you landed on earth with your mothers orgasm ? ----- Original Message ----- From: OISHIK SIRCAR Date: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:11 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: Kshmendra Kaul Cc: sarai list > Kshmendra: > > That was not meant to be an abuse at all... it was meant to > suggest a means > to experience anal stimulation that can be orgasmic... I have > tried it... so > suggested that Vedavati do the same... you could also do the same... > actually all the HINDUS who are obsessing about nationalism on > this listserv > should do the same... they'll realise that there are better and more > enjoyable -- and of course more useful things in life to do than spew > virulent intolerance. Suggesting means to experience pleasure is > not abuse, > I'm sure you'll agree. > > And I am overwhelmed with the kind of response my comments have > attracted -- > that's the way to keep the Hindu bullshitters engaged I can > clearly see. > > If you find this mail to be crude and obscene as well -- I > would've made my > point. > > Cheers... > > Oishik > > On Jan 19, 2008 3:16 AM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > It is ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to > the notice > > of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against abuse > directed at > > them. > > > > Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI) > was the > > one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and > obscene manner. > > > > Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would > have to say > > to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights" (sic). > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! > Mobile. Try it > > now. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > -- > OISHIK SIRCAR > > Scholar in Women's Rights > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > 60 Harbord Street > Room 016 B > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > 416.876.7926 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sun Jan 20 15:17:54 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:47:54 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Women In-Reply-To: <411844.9395.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <411844.9395.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Being inhuman in his words and deeds he must be exercising his rights there also. ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Kshmendra Kaul Date: Saturday, January 19, 2008 7:28 pm Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Women To: sarai list > It is ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to the > notice of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against > abuse directed at them. > > Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI) > was the one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and > obscene manner. > > Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would > have to say to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights" > (sic). > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try it now. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From asitredsalute at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 15:31:57 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 15:31:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70801180954k43eb2f8cq336c0b3f09411894@mail.gmail.com> <4fcaee300801190048j5a06421q906f83e80e6ceb13@mail.gmail.com> <4fcaee300801190143o5b18ac5cu5d5438d560bb3960@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: lets not communalise the kashmir scene with talking about pandits and muslims what is imporatnt is kasmiriyat ant the national liberation of kashmir it is a occcupied territory of both pakistan and india we make a big scene about pandits what about thousands of kasmiri youth killed by the indian army the tortures the rapes and the natinal indignination of kasmir its not a question of hindus or muslims but the colonisation of kasmir by india and pakistan asit On 1/20/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > Same is the case when Theesta and the likes with "secular" media claim > "thousands of " muslims bucthered in Gujarath, but who bothers about truth > when one can get saudi riyals to defend the traitors of the nation with > highly paid "criminal" lawyers. ? > In riot both hindus and muslims loose their beloved, many lives are lost, > but this has origin in creating the Pakistan and then not encouraging the > indian muslims to go the land and nation they created for faith, after > promising to live in India like brothers to their society. ? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Wali Arifi > Date: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:58 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > To: reader-list > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many > > lessons. One > > being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate figures when > > it comes to > > human loss. > > > > > > > > But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the loss. In > > fact accuracy > > adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. In essence > > multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to take refuge in > > propagandaand cloth the truth with it. > > > > > > > > Mr Durrani in his post has said: "….for killing of more than 3000 > > Kashmiripandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this > > community." > > > > > > I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What is Mr Durrani > > trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of killings? > > Is he > > helping the community by exaggerating the figure? > > > > > > > > According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri > > pandits were > > killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. > > > > > > > > It has to be understood that multiplying figures is dangerously > > counterproductive for those who call themselves as the champions and > > custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget about the > > use of > > words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing and so on... > > > > > > > > Kashmir's history will be written by those who have dreamed of a 'just > > Kashmir'. > > > > > > > > Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or trying > > to create > > it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into what it has > > actuallybeen in all practice... **Majoritarianism. > > > > Regards, > > > > Wali > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 15:42:08 2008 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 15:42:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome In-Reply-To: References: <62cba67a0801190939u6e0443cwa12bd21e6ecf3a65@mail.gmail.com> <93004.80532.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshmendra and all your supporters and back slappers, You can easily pinpoint Oishik for his outburst of anger and frustration and then state that because he (mis)directed his anger at Vedavati and company, he has no right to talk about the abuse of Manipuri women at the hands of the Indian state appointed soldiers there. How about for a moment questioning Lady Chanchal and her remarks and for once again coming back to the issue that Oishik has tried to raise - the rape of women at the hands of state appointed army and the manifestations of the state's violence at women? Chanchal diverted the topic by once again going back to her pet peeve of Islam and Muslim and her hang ups of some frozen history that she loves to imagine. I pointed out to her that it has nothing to do with Hindu-Muslim populations and Hindu-Muslim army soldiers but a larger question and concern about women being direct targets of state violence (with that state violence and injustice also being responsible for the rise of all kinds of other movements to combat it). I then pointed to Chanchal how I have also been eve-teased in Srinagar by soldiers. No, they did not come to ask me whether I was Hindu or Muslim but made lewd remarks simply because I was woman and bear breasts and bosom on my person. I also want to clarify that it not about the soldiers themselves, but about the institutions and the systems that get perpetrated within the structure of the conflict and occupation of space. Chanchal immediately retorted saying that because I happen to be "Muslim", I am likely to complain about being eve teased. *What kind of a patriarchal and discriminatory remark is this?* This does not come to your attention but Oishik's suggestion of anal stimulation immediately strikes you and you make claims about the mothers and sisters of the world. You don't recognize that we have turned this into a battle of whose position is right and backslapping. In our egostical positions and pride and victimized states, as Gowhar and others have rightly pointed out, we fail to see who suffers - children who are beaten by the army, women who are serially raped and butchered, men whose psyches have been muted by the violences, families that continue to suffer the losses of their loved ones, etc. and this is not restricted to Kashmir, but to violence all over the world. But perhaps, you would brush this aside by exclaiming that these are standard complaints of Muslims. And then you cleverly subvert every issue, incidence and event to Kashmir and to Muslims. Clever you! On this note, having personally known Oishik, I vouch for him as a very sincere, honest and well-meaning person. One remark of anger and frustration does not define a person's overall political commitments and thoughts. And this would apply to my not boxing either of you as good or bad people on the basis of your positions. Best, Zainab *P.S. Any immediate retort/s to this email will be and ought to be categorically ignored. * On Jan 20, 2008 3:05 PM, wrote: > Well said, with lal salaaam. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:48 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > To: sarai list > > > Oishik > > > > 1. Thank you for the suggestion directed to me. It does not > > interest me. I too have some suggestions for you. > > > > 2. You seem to be obsessed with what you have experienced and > > suggested. You see a lot of merit in it. > > > > 3. Charitable soul that you are, you must have promoted it to > > your circle of family and friends. > > > > 4. OISHIT, since there might be others of your kind who might > > not find your suggestions/language obscene and crude, you must > > convince them about it. You must provide references for them on > > the efficacy of your suggestion. > > > > 5. So OISHIT, I presume we will get testimonials from your > > mother, sisters (if any), daughters (if any) and others to whom > > you must have recommended the stimulation. They certainly would > > have respected your suggestion. Maybe you even helped them in the > > processes in the course of convincing them that your suggestion on > > means to experience pleasure is not abuse. You must mention the > > role played by you. > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > > Kshmendra: > > > > That was not meant to be an abuse at all... it was meant to > > suggest a means to experience anal stimulation that can be > > orgasmic... I have tried it... so suggested that Vedavati do the > > same... you could also do the same... actually all the HINDUS who > > are obsessing about nationalism on this listserv should do the > > same... they'll realise that there are better and more enjoyable -- > > and of course more useful things in life to do than spew virulent > > intolerance. Suggesting means to experience pleasure is not abuse, > > I'm sure you'll agree. > > > > And I am overwhelmed with the kind of response my comments have > > attracted -- that's the way to keep the Hindu bullshitters engaged > > I can clearly see. > > > > If you find this mail to be crude and obscene as well -- I > > would've made my point. > > > > Cheers... > > > > Oishik > > > > On Jan 19, 2008 3:16 AM, Kshmendra Kaul > > wrote: > > It is ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to > > the notice of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against > > abuse directed at them. > > > > Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI) > > was the one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and > > obscene manner. > > > > Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would > > have to say to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights" > > (sic). > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > Try it now. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > -- > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > Room 016 B > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > 416.876.7926 > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > Try it now. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Sun Jan 20 17:32:13 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:02:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] are these nationalists Message-ID: <834991.70706.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I do not find a single Muslim coming ahead in demand of Punishing AFZAL (Supreme Court has already announced death on him)... Why are you Muslims jumping for Modi... Don't agitate Hindus further... Too much is too much.. Keep yourself within your own religious boundaries... Do not intrude your nose into our ever peaceful and harmless faith... You got to know.. that Inda originally is a land of Hindus.. Muslims and Christians exist and flourish because of Hindu tolerance.. Unlike your faith, where Hindus are nearly eliminated.. So first talk about Terrorism and then talk about Modi... ----- Original Message ---- From: Asit asitreds To: Pawan Durani Cc: sarai Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 1:56:12 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] are these nationalists dear all given the magnitude of voilence in gujrat this is no justice until modi himself is not punished asit On 1/19/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Dear Fatima Ji , > > NamaskAr > > If you would have read my mail without any prejudice , you would have > observed that I had written that atleast few people have been *CONVICTED* > in > Gujarat. > > Muslim ruled Kashmir has created a history that no killers have been > convicted so far , and those Islamic fanatics have been responsible for > kilings of Hindus to start with.Ironically the killers like Yasin Malik is > being compared with Gandhi by *intellectuals* like you . > > God Bless > > Regards > > Pawan > > > On 1/19/08, S.Fatima wrote: > > > > Do you really think the justice has been served in > > Gujarat? And no one's living in concentration camps > > any more? > > > > And this number of Kashmiri pundits killed... you > > folks always come up with a different number. > > Sometimes one of you says 3000, then 8000, then > > 40,000. Please decide it for once. I am not making fun > > of this - I know all the pain and suffering someone > > gets, but lets make a mockery of things by hurtling > > stones at each other. > > > > > > --- Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > At least 6 years after the Gujarat riot , which > > > started after some > > > fundamentalists burnt alive scores of Hindu Pilgrims > > > returning from Ayodhya > > > , few people were convicted. > > > > > > Compare it with the case of Kashmiri Pandits , even > > > after 18 years , not > > > even a single person has been convicted in Kashmir > > > for killing of more than > > > 3000 Kashmiri pandits . Not to talk of rape and > > > arson against this > > > community. > > > > > > For that reason that the state is ruled by > > > camouflage Islamic fundamentalist > > > and Islamic groups are in majority. > > > > > > When will the justice be served to Kashmiri Pandits > > > ? At least in Modis > > > gujarat ....it has been served..... > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/18/08, S.Fatima > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Friends > > > > Look at these two news items for what's being > > > > discussed on this list right now: > > > > > > > > 12 convicted in Bilkis Bano rape case > > > > 18 Jan 2008, 1710 hrs IST,PTI > > > > MUMBAI: Twelve persons, including a police > > > official, > > > > were convicted by a special court here on Friday > > > in > > > > the Bilkis Bano gang-rape case related to the > > > > post-Godhra communal violence in Gujarat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/12_convicted_in_Bilkis_Bano_rape_case/articleshow/2711484.cms > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > 'Modi gave us a free run to do whatever we wanted' > > > > 26 Oct 2007, 0101 hrs IST,TNN > > > > > > > > NEW DELHI: "We made a complete rocket launcher > > > here... > > > > We distributed so many weapons, people were > > > shocked. > > > > We'd make them here and then test them." > > > > > > > > Here are some more such shocking 'testimonies': > > > > > > > > Suresh Richard, an accused in the Naroda Patiya > > > > episode in which over 200 Muslims were officially > > > > estimated to have been killed, said on camera that > > > > Modi visited the locality the same evening, > > > February > > > > 28, and thanked the perpetrators of the violence > > > > saying, "Aap dhanya ho... (You are blessed)." > > > > > > > > Rajendra Vyas, a senior VHP functionary who was on > > > the > > > > Sabarmati Express that was set on fire in Godhra, > > > > said, "The Muslims had played a one-day match with > > > > us... They have given us a target of 60... We have > > > to > > > > win this match at any cost, so don't stop till you > > > > have made 600 runs... Modi gave us a free run to > > > do > > > > whatever we wanted... The police were with us..." > > > > > > > > Babu Bajrangi, a Bajrang Dal activist who has been > > > in > > > > the news for blocking the carnage movie Parzania > > > from > > > > being screened in the state, revealed that police > > > > commissioner P C Pande, who has recently been > > > moved > > > > out of the DGP's post by the Election Commission, > > > had > > > > ordered that the 700-800 dead bodies at Naroda > > > Patiya > > > > be clandestinely picked up and dumped all over > > > > Ahmedabad. > > > > > > > > "The commissioner came that night and said that if > > > > there were so many dead at one place, it would > > > create > > > > trouble for him... After killing them, I felt like > > > > Maharana Pratap... We killed at will, turned the > > > place > > > > into Haldighati." > > > > > > > > Key witness in the Godhra case, Ranjitsingh Patel, > > > a > > > > petrol pump employee who deposed that he had sold > > > 140 > > > > litres of petrol to the accused on the eve of the > > > > Sabarmati episode, admits that he and his > > > colleague > > > > were both paid Rs 50,000 each by Noel Parmar, the > > > > chief investigating officer. > > > > > > > > "Noel saheb gave me fifty thousand, showed me a > > > > photograph and said I had to identify him." Two > > > BJP > > > > members, Murli Mulchandani and Kakul Pathak, who > > > > claimed to be eyewitnesses to the Godhra attack > > > and > > > > identified many of the accused, admit they were > > > not > > > > even at the station that fateful day. > > > > > > > > Mulchandani said: "I wasn't at the station, I was > > > > sleeping at home. But the police put me among the > > > > witnesses." Pathak said, "The police gave all the > > > > names. None of the eyewitnesses wrote their > > > > statements. The police did." > > > > > > > > Arvind Pandya, the government's counsel in the > > > ongoing > > > > proceedings before the Nanavati-Shah Commission > > > > probing the carnage, said that the accused had > > > nothing > > > > to fear from either of the retired judges. > > > "Nanavati > > > > is a clever man... He wants money... Of the two > > > > judges, Shah is intelligent... woh anpe wala hai > > > (he > > > > is our man)... he is sympathetic to us... Nanavati > > > is > > > > after money." > > > > > > > > Bharat Bhatt, a public prosecutor, said that he > > > was > > > > shielding the Hindu accused even as he was > > > supposed to > > > > be arguing against them. > > > > > > > > "I tell all the Hindus not to smile when they see > > > > me... not to say a word to me. I tell them that I > > > will > > > > scold them if they do so... Sometimes I deceive > > > > them... I scare them but later show my affections > > > > too..." > > > > > > > > In the Gulbarg Society massacre, accused Madan > > > Chawal > > > > gives a first-hand account of how former Congress > > > MP > > > > Ehsan Jafri was hacked limb by limb and burned. He > > > > says Jafri offered them money in return for his > > > life. > > > > "We said yes. When he came out, we took the money > > > and > > > > pounced on him." > > > > > > > > > > > > Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from > > > any browser, without > > > > download. Go to > > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php/ > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > > the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click > > away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Sun Jan 20 17:39:34 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:09:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? Message-ID: <408411.91082.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Muslims always paint picture of Kashmir that Muslims face problem there.. I have asked many questions and no one answers... Who is creating problems in Pakistan (is it Hindus).. Dear friends, Kashmir is no less then Pakistan.. Kashmir is more than 95% Muslim... The story ends here... Whatever is happening in Kashmir is due to the Faith In Quran.. that is all... As far as few years back history is concerned - It is Hindu women (in thousands) they have been kept Captive and used in Harem by Muslims... Senior Muslim officers of Army demand for those women... and even the Muslims concept of Jannat is all about enjoying women... Let me not quote now on this... Hindus have been massacred (no riots, no reaction - only action and proaction by Muslims).. as Quran asks them to do this... Let me not again quote here... though if challenged, I will quote heedlessly... There is enough abuse to Hindus... The tolerance shown has no value... The only value Muslims hold is the false notion that God has told them to kill... and they all worship the every-killing and terrorised God... We are happy with our Idols, which are ideals in variations... If one ideal is not agreeable, there is yet another... Diversity is basis of existence.. and Hindus have practiced unity over diverstions in true reality... This might be a scrap and old for some... For me, that is what is the true nature of India... Let the Muslims now first talk about Terrorism.. let them first demand Afzal before talking on Modi.. let them first accept India as their motherland... Only then, the secularism would meet its purpose... ----- Original Message ---- From: Asit asitreds To: "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" Cc: reader-list Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 3:31:57 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? lets not communalise the kashmir scene with talking about pandits and muslims what is imporatnt is kasmiriyat ant the national liberation of kashmir it is a occcupied territory of both pakistan and india we make a big scene about pandits what about thousands of kasmiri youth killed by the indian army the tortures the rapes and the natinal indignination of kasmir its not a question of hindus or muslims but the colonisation of kasmir by india and pakistan asit On 1/20/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > Same is the case when Theesta and the likes with "secular" media claim > "thousands of " muslims bucthered in Gujarath, but who bothers about truth > when one can get saudi riyals to defend the traitors of the nation with > highly paid "criminal" lawyers. ? > In riot both hindus and muslims loose their beloved, many lives are lost, > but this has origin in creating the Pakistan and then not encouraging the > indian muslims to go the land and nation they created for faith, after > promising to live in India like brothers to their society. ? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Wali Arifi > Date: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:58 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > To: reader-list > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many > > lessons. One > > being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate figures when > > it comes to > > human loss. > > > > > > > > But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the loss. In > > fact accuracy > > adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. In essence > > multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to take refuge in > > propagandaand cloth the truth with it. > > > > > > > > Mr Durrani in his post has said: "….for killing of more than 3000 > > Kashmiripandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this > > community." > > > > > > I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What is Mr Durrani > > trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of killings? > > Is he > > helping the community by exaggerating the figure? > > > > > > > > According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri > > pandits were > > killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. > > > > > > > > It has to be understood that multiplying figures is dangerously > > counterproductive for those who call themselves as the champions and > > custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget about the > > use of > > words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing and so on... > > > > > > > > Kashmir's history will be written by those who have dreamed of a 'just > > Kashmir'. > > > > > > > > Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or trying > > to create > > it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into what it has > > actuallybeen in all practice... **Majoritarianism. > > > > Regards, > > > > Wali > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sun Jan 20 17:42:18 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:12:18 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] road-show to prove you belong to the nation In-Reply-To: References: <236270.38115.qm@web90411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <209147.94392.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi, now tracing back to the topic of defence forces in law and order duties. First and foremost, defence forces are used to defend the nation and for tackling the issues which are unmanageable by police or paramilitary for obivious reasons, such as massive earth quake, floods and natural calamities. To use defence forces to fight the terrorists who do not have any uniform in their war except brainwashed and bearing skull caps and beard is misadventure of the governing forces. Army can fight an enemy who is identifiable and has war as is the game and unfortunately there is no political will to tackle terrorism and supporters of terror as this help comes from civil society, within the society for the lure of money by the terror perpetrators. As has been seen, every captured terrorist had along with arms and explosives large amount of currency with him, to be used for his logistics. The civilian who is deprived of good governance or for lure of quick gains of money sheltors the terrorists, many for the sympathy of the faith. ! If local police act on checking the antecedents, immediately protests of "targetting" the citizens for their faith and such other bogies are raised and moreover, even if one knows that some do support, sheltor and provide logistical help to the terror modules the local police either do not have the political backup to act or politicians immediately interfere to save the culprits,ofcourse there are NGOs who are ready with "criminal" lawyers to help out even after arrest. ? And there are judges who buy lands at 5 lakhs in their wifes name, sons run property business deals from residence of judges of highest courts,which are worth crores and then get promoted if they are favourable in giving dole out judgements to the political masters ? Army has actually no role to be in states except for rest and recuperation , has to be at borders and not on this type of duties where lack of good governance has to be tackled by the system, not army. ----- Original Message ----- From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 3:20 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] road-show to prove you belong to the nation To: Yousuf Cc: reader-list list > Hi, It is not that, for muslims they have only mullas as leaders > and they are in the vice grip of these mullas who dictate terms of > life for them unlike any other hindu who lives life with his way > of life. Secondly, muslims have only leaders who are foisted on > them that are not popular choice either. ? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Yousuf > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 1:01 am > Subject: [Reader-list] road-show to prove you belong to the nation > To: chanchal malviya , Zainab Bawa > , Pawan Durani > Cc: reader-list list > > > Dear Chanchal > > I fail to understand, why should only Muslims need to > > to a roadshow to prove they belong to the nation. Show > > me one ordinary Indian Muslim who is happy about > > terrorism today (even from Kashmir). For them to do a > > roadshow against terrorism means that they first > > identify with it (for being a Muslim) and then condemn > > it. > > > > I condemn terrorism as much as you do, but what will I > > achieve with a roadshow. I think we need to work > > together against this menace if we condemn it > > together. And to do that, we need to first reduce our > > own differences and prejudices. > > > > People are dropping topics on this conversation list > > because they realize they are not going to change each > > other's minds however hard they try. Some people seem > > to have joined this list saying "hey look, here is a > > list of psuedo-secularists, Islam-lovers and > > anti-nationalists. Lets hurl some stones at them". Is > > that true or not? > > > > If you come with that kind of attitude, no one's going > > to take you seriously. But if are serious about > > discussing our current problems and finding possible > > solutions, why can't we start by first respecting each > > other and working together. Most of the dialogues of > > this kind end up in a chicken-n-egg situation here. No > > one can prove who started it all, or who has been the > > worst victim/culprit, so there is no point in > > continuing to hurl stones at each other. We seem to be > > wasting our time and leading to more and more hatred. > > > > But during these debates, I often wonder how would it > > be if all these people were sitting together, across > > the table, more purposefully. I am sure the debate > > would lead to something more concrete - at least a > > different sort of trust/mistrust if you could see the > > person you are talking to. To me, some of these > > internet debates sound too hollow, since there is no > > accountability. Why doesn't anyone think of a road > > show to discuss how to resolve these issues together? > > > > (its sad that the real road-show, that of the Manipuri > > women, with which the debate started, has got > > completely sidelined) > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > > > --- chanchal malviya > > wrote: > > > > > The same applies to you... You also produce things > > > without any authentication... > > > I requested to stop talking about issues.. and start > > > a culture of talking about Solutions... > > > I called to produce ideas and strategies that can > > > help the nation... > > > > > > there is no reply... The same issues (Issues that is > > > against Muslims) are again and again dropped in the > > > network... > > > The intention is clear from this.. and hence I am > > > hard to answer... > > > > > > And mind it, if we go to the basics of Muslims (the > > > Quran).. the reality would be even dangerour... > > > which never applies for Hindus... > > > But it is not good to go into those things... > > > > > > I have ever repeated and say again - Let the Muslims > > > do one Road Show against Terrorists, if they think > > > they belong to this Nation... > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Zainab Bawa > > > To: Pawan Durani > > > Cc: reader-list list > > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 8:18:14 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manipuri women coming to > > > stir up Govt. at Delhi - Campaign against > > > Militarization, Impunity and AFSPA 1958 > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping_________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Sun Jan 20 17:51:53 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:21:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome Message-ID: <219129.92898.qm@web90413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Don't mislead... The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to India (all HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India... (I will get the Video uploaded on UTube on this, as this was shown by an external news channel)... and you say, women are raped in India.. You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of having more than one wife.. there is no freedom to women to report rapes... who will show what happens in your community... The Quran says them all... and I have all senteces of Quran right with me.... Believe me, all awaken Hindus are now reading Quran... they all know what is there in that book... So, Muslims cannot fool the world any more that Quran teaches Peace... and Islam is a peaceful religion... Modi is a simple indication, what Hindus are now thinking... It is Muslims who have to think now... they have created this world a land of havoc... Everywhere they are simply engaged in Killing.... They even kill each other, as in Iraq and now in Pakistan... And they are seriously killing Hindus like anything.... If this is again refuted... I can start quoting dates with killing counts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... I don't know, what is in their head.... How do they get so easily terrorised... What do they get in believing that killign an Idolator is a work of God... It is stupid... and yet they all are keeping this faith in their head.... they all are not engaged in killing, but they all are engaged in supporting this act... Quran says, forgive the Idolators only if they accept Islam... and Quran says this right from second Surah to the last one... Why? Our religion don't teach about this variance at all... Geeta teaches how to unite, how to live with respective with each other, how to love, how to perform duty... Why can't you teach peace... Why can't you understand that Nature has created every creature (of all species) unique and different.. Nature has produced variance so that creatures can live with respect to each other... A specie is not naturally allowed to kill the same specie.. except for humans.. where humans are killing humans... Let India live with its heritage of Hindutva... Thousands of years of killing and enforcement have failed to eliminate Hindus... Another thousand will also fail... Because nature will keep the variance alive... But the attempt of Islam and christianity would only produce killing of innocent people... Hindus would kill muslims only during riots or war... But Muslim would kill always for religious reasons... Please stop talking all these things.. Please talk peace... Please talk how to proliferate the nation.. Please suggest how to remove the Quranic Islam and produce Indian Islam... Please stop attacking Hindus, Modi and Army... Please, please, please.... ----- Original Message ---- From: Zainab Bawa To: Kshmendra Kaul ; sarai list Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 3:42:08 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome Dear Kshmendra and all your supporters and back slappers, You can easily pinpoint Oishik for his outburst of anger and frustration and then state that because he (mis)directed his anger at Vedavati and company, he has no right to talk about the abuse of Manipuri women at the hands of the Indian state appointed soldiers there. How about for a moment questioning Lady Chanchal and her remarks and for once again coming back to the issue that Oishik has tried to raise - the rape of women at the hands of state appointed army and the manifestations of the state's violence at women? Chanchal diverted the topic by once again going back to her pet peeve of Islam and Muslim and her hang ups of some frozen history that she loves to imagine. I pointed out to her that it has nothing to do with Hindu-Muslim populations and Hindu-Muslim army soldiers but a larger question and concern about women being direct targets of state violence (with that state violence and injustice also being responsible for the rise of all kinds of other movements to combat it). I then pointed to Chanchal how I have also been eve-teased in Srinagar by soldiers. No, they did not come to ask me whether I was Hindu or Muslim but made lewd remarks simply because I was woman and bear breasts and bosom on my person. I also want to clarify that it not about the soldiers themselves, but about the institutions and the systems that get perpetrated within the structure of the conflict and occupation of space. Chanchal immediately retorted saying that because I happen to be "Muslim", I am likely to complain about being eve teased. *What kind of a patriarchal and discriminatory remark is this?* This does not come to your attention but Oishik's suggestion of anal stimulation immediately strikes you and you make claims about the mothers and sisters of the world. You don't recognize that we have turned this into a battle of whose position is right and backslapping. In our egostical positions and pride and victimized states, as Gowhar and others have rightly pointed out, we fail to see who suffers - children who are beaten by the army, women who are serially raped and butchered, men whose psyches have been muted by the violences, families that continue to suffer the losses of their loved ones, etc. and this is not restricted to Kashmir, but to violence all over the world. But perhaps, you would brush this aside by exclaiming that these are standard complaints of Muslims. And then you cleverly subvert every issue, incidence and event to Kashmir and to Muslims. Clever you! On this note, having personally known Oishik, I vouch for him as a very sincere, honest and well-meaning person. One remark of anger and frustration does not define a person's overall political commitments and thoughts. And this would apply to my not boxing either of you as good or bad people on the basis of your positions. Best, Zainab *P.S. Any immediate retort/s to this email will be and ought to be categorically ignored. * On Jan 20, 2008 3:05 PM, wrote: > Well said, with lal salaaam. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:48 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > To: sarai list > > > Oishik > > > > 1. Thank you for the suggestion directed to me. It does not > > interest me. I too have some suggestions for you. > > > > 2. You seem to be obsessed with what you have experienced and > > suggested. You see a lot of merit in it. > > > > 3. Charitable soul that you are, you must have promoted it to > > your circle of family and friends. > > > > 4. OISHIT, since there might be others of your kind who might > > not find your suggestions/language obscene and crude, you must > > convince them about it. You must provide references for them on > > the efficacy of your suggestion. > > > > 5. So OISHIT, I presume we will get testimonials from your > > mother, sisters (if any), daughters (if any) and others to whom > > you must have recommended the stimulation. They certainly would > > have respected your suggestion. Maybe you even helped them in the > > processes in the course of convincing them that your suggestion on > > means to experience pleasure is not abuse. You must mention the > > role played by you. > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > > Kshmendra: > > > > That was not meant to be an abuse at all... it was meant to > > suggest a means to experience anal stimulation that can be > > orgasmic... I have tried it... so suggested that Vedavati do the > > same... you could also do the same... actually all the HINDUS who > > are obsessing about nationalism on this listserv should do the > > same... they'll realise that there are better and more enjoyable -- > > and of course more useful things in life to do than spew virulent > > intolerance. Suggesting means to experience pleasure is not abuse, > > I'm sure you'll agree. > > > > And I am overwhelmed with the kind of response my comments have > > attracted -- that's the way to keep the Hindu bullshitters engaged > > I can clearly see. > > > > If you find this mail to be crude and obscene as well -- I > > would've made my point. > > > > Cheers... > > > > Oishik > > > > On Jan 19, 2008 3:16 AM, Kshmendra Kaul > > wrote: > > It is ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to > > the notice of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against > > abuse directed at them. > > > > Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI) > > was the one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and > > obscene manner. > > > > Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would > > have to say to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights" > > (sic). > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > Try it now. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > -- > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > Room 016 B > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > 416.876.7926 > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > Try it now. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From tulunadu at hotmail.com Sun Jan 20 18:01:21 2008 From: tulunadu at hotmail.com (Krishna Chaithanya) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 18:01:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? In-Reply-To: <408411.91082.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <408411.91082.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There is enough abuse to Hindus... The tolerance shown has no value... The only value Muslims hold is the false notion that God has told them to kill... and they all worship the every-killing and terrorised God... is what you wrote Chanchal That's what my Dalit friends say - There is enough abuse to Dalits... The tolerance shown has no value... The only value Upper casts hold is the false notion that God has created them superior. and they all worship the ever discriminating God... will these kind of utterances lead to any solution? > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:09:34 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > To: asitredsalute at gmail.com; radhikarajen at vsnl.net > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > Muslims always paint picture of Kashmir that Muslims face problem there.. > I have asked many questions and no one answers... > > Who is creating problems in Pakistan (is it Hindus).. Dear friends, Kashmir is no less then Pakistan.. > Kashmir is more than 95% Muslim... The story ends here... Whatever is happening in Kashmir is due to the Faith In Quran.. that is all... > > As far as few years back history is concerned - It is Hindu women (in thousands) they have been kept Captive and used in Harem by Muslims... Senior Muslim officers of Army demand for those women... and even the Muslims concept of Jannat is all about enjoying women... Let me not quote now on this... > > Hindus have been massacred (no riots, no reaction - only action and proaction by Muslims).. as Quran asks them to do this... Let me not again quote here... though if challenged, I will quote heedlessly... > > There is enough abuse to Hindus... The tolerance shown has no value... The only value Muslims hold is the false notion that God has told them to kill... and they all worship the every-killing and terrorised God... > > We are happy with our Idols, which are ideals in variations... If one ideal is not agreeable, there is yet another... Diversity is basis of existence.. and Hindus have practiced unity over diverstions in true reality... > > This might be a scrap and old for some... For me, that is what is the true nature of India... > > Let the Muslims now first talk about Terrorism.. let them first demand Afzal before talking on Modi.. let them first accept India as their motherland... > Only then, the secularism would meet its purpose... > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Asit asitreds > To: "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" > Cc: reader-list > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 3:31:57 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > lets not communalise the kashmir scene with talking about pandits and > muslims what is imporatnt is kasmiriyat ant the national liberation of > kashmir it is a occcupied territory of both pakistan and india we make a big > scene about pandits what about thousands of kasmiri youth killed by the > indian army the tortures the rapes and the natinal indignination of kasmir > its not a question of hindus or muslims but the colonisation of kasmir by > india and pakistan > > asit > > > On 1/20/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > > > Same is the case when Theesta and the likes with "secular" media claim > > "thousands of " muslims bucthered in Gujarath, but who bothers about truth > > when one can get saudi riyals to defend the traitors of the nation with > > highly paid "criminal" lawyers. ? > > In riot both hindus and muslims loose their beloved, many lives are lost, > > but this has origin in creating the Pakistan and then not encouraging the > > indian muslims to go the land and nation they created for faith, after > > promising to live in India like brothers to their society. ? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Wali Arifi > > Date: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:58 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > To: reader-list > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many > > > lessons. One > > > being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate figures when > > > it comes to > > > human loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the loss. In > > > fact accuracy > > > adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. In essence > > > multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to take refuge in > > > propagandaand cloth the truth with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mr Durrani in his post has said: "….for killing of more than 3000 > > > Kashmiripandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this > > > community." > > > > > > > > > I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What is Mr Durrani > > > trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of killings? > > > Is he > > > helping the community by exaggerating the figure? > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri > > > pandits were > > > killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. > > > > > > > > > > > > It has to be understood that multiplying figures is dangerously > > > counterproductive for those who call themselves as the champions and > > > custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget about the > > > use of > > > words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing and so on... > > > > > > > > > > > > Kashmir's history will be written by those who have dreamed of a 'just > > > Kashmir'. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or trying > > > to create > > > it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into what it has > > > actuallybeen in all practice... **Majoritarianism. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Wali > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=220 From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Sun Jan 20 18:15:59 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:45:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? Message-ID: <312048.18738.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Take all the Religious books of Hindus... and show to Dalit where is the word Dalit... Take all the Religious books of Hindus... and show to Dalit where is the word 'Jati'... Take all the Religious books of Hindus... and show where is Dahej... Take all the Religious books of Hindus... and show where is the theory of Burning a women when the husband is dead... Show where in Hinduism is written that Brahmins are by birth Brahmins and Shudra are by birth Shudra... Arey, I challenge ... take all the Religious books of Hindus and show me where is the word 'HINDU'... You do not know to respect your own faith... You do not know anything about your own faith... You people have never ready your own books... And you think, you are talking sense... It is better you become Muslims... at least you will read Quran for sure.. so what that it is a wrong book for existence of life... It is better you becoem a Christian... at least you will read Bible for sure... so what it is a wrong book for humanity... Who has created Dalits.. Is it Brahmins ? Thousands of years have deprived India of money... The Land of Gold is now called the Land of Old... G is removed so that all its rich heritage is called Old... And Dalits or (Illiterates whoever they are).. are the primary target in being taught the wrong things.. How many literate Dalit face the problem of Brahmin.. How many temples have a system of finding whether a Dalit is entering it (Politics has it though as reservation)... Actually, there is enough of Dalit politics also now.... If Dalit is standing on same platform as Brahmins, let them first eliminate the world Dalit... Why is Dalit interested in calling themselves Dalit... India was a well Organized nation... It is never that two person is equal... How can then Shudra be equal to Brahmin.. Indian philosophy has always taught integrity... Because it is always that two person live in relation to each other... and this is what Varna arrangement used to do... You do not want to integrate... You want equality but without balance... You don't want progress (because progress is possible only integrity)... you want to rule on Brahmins... like Laloo and Mulayam did in Bihar and UP... and the nation knows what has happened to those states.. Come on man.. Tell that you are a Hindu.. tell it with pride... If you do not know to respect yourself.. who will respect you... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: reader-list Cc: chanchal malviya ; Asit asitreds ; "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:01:21 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? There is enough abuse to Hindus... The tolerance shown has no value... The only value Muslims hold is the false notion that God has told them to kill... and they all worship the every-killing and terrorised God... is what you wrote Chanchal That's what my Dalit friends say - There is enough abuse to Dalits... The tolerance shown has no value... The only value Upper casts hold is the false notion that God has created them superior. and they all worship the ever discriminating God... will these kind of utterances lead to any solution? > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:09:34 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > To: asitredsalute at gmail.com; radhikarajen at vsnl.net > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > Muslims always paint picture of Kashmir that Muslims face problem there.. > I have asked many questions and no one answers... > > Who is creating problems in Pakistan (is it Hindus).. Dear friends, Kashmir is no less then Pakistan.. > Kashmir is more than 95% Muslim... The story ends here... Whatever is happening in Kashmir is due to the Faith In Quran.. that is all... > > As far as few years back history is concerned - It is Hindu women (in thousands) they have been kept Captive and used in Harem by Muslims... Senior Muslim officers of Army demand for those women... and even the Muslims concept of Jannat is all about enjoying women... Let me not quote now on this... > > Hindus have been massacred (no riots, no reaction - only action and proaction by Muslims).. as Quran asks them to do this... Let me not again quote here... though if challenged, I will quote heedlessly... > > There is enough abuse to Hindus... The tolerance shown has no value... The only value Muslims hold is the false notion that God has told them to kill... and they all worship the every-killing and terrorised God... > > We are happy with our Idols, which are ideals in variations... If one ideal is not agreeable, there is yet another... Diversity is basis of existence.. and Hindus have practiced unity over diverstions in true reality... > > This might be a scrap and old for some... For me, that is what is the true nature of India... > > Let the Muslims now first talk about Terrorism.. let them first demand Afzal before talking on Modi.. let them first accept India as their motherland... > Only then, the secularism would meet its purpose... > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Asit asitreds > To: "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" > Cc: reader-list > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 3:31:57 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > lets not communalise the kashmir scene with talking about pandits and > muslims what is imporatnt is kasmiriyat ant the national liberation of > kashmir it is a occcupied territory of both pakistan and india we make a big > scene about pandits what about thousands of kasmiri youth killed by the > indian army the tortures the rapes and the natinal indignination of kasmir > its not a question of hindus or muslims but the colonisation of kasmir by > india and pakistan > > asit > > > On 1/20/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > > > Same is the case when Theesta and the likes with "secular" media claim > > "thousands of " muslims bucthered in Gujarath, but who bothers about truth > > when one can get saudi riyals to defend the traitors of the nation with > > highly paid "criminal" lawyers. ? > > In riot both hindus and muslims loose their beloved, many lives are lost, > > but this has origin in creating the Pakistan and then not encouraging the > > indian muslims to go the land and nation they created for faith, after > > promising to live in India like brothers to their society. ? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Wali Arifi > > Date: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:58 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > To: reader-list > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many > > > lessons. One > > > being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate figures when > > > it comes to > > > human loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the loss. In > > > fact accuracy > > > adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. In essence > > > multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to take refuge in > > > propagandaand cloth the truth with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mr Durrani in his post has said: "….for killing of more than 3000 > > > Kashmiripandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this > > > community." > > > > > > > > > I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What is Mr Durrani > > > trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of killings? > > > Is he > > > helping the community by exaggerating the figure? > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri > > > pandits were > > > killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. > > > > > > > > > > > > It has to be understood that multiplying figures is dangerously > > > counterproductive for those who call themselves as the champions and > > > custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget about the > > > use of > > > words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing and so on... > > > > > > > > > > > > Kashmir's history will be written by those who have dreamed of a 'just > > > Kashmir'. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or trying > > > to create > > > it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into what it has > > > actuallybeen in all practice... **Majoritarianism. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Wali > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Fly HYD-BLR for Rs.499 Log on to MakeMyTrip! Check it out! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From tulunadu at hotmail.com Sun Jan 20 18:19:37 2008 From: tulunadu at hotmail.com (Krishna Chaithanya) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 18:19:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. In-Reply-To: References: <968066.25432.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society....!? We bomb them and they bomb us and we bomb them and they bomb us together we bomb us then who is left to bomb...? KC > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:33:09 +0500 > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > Hi, true, it for too long hindus have been tolerent leading to a sarcastic comment that they are cowards, may be Nehru was coward when India was divided for his greed,may be Krishna menon loved chinese vaginas more than indian ones, but now it is time that hindu understood the value of SAMA, Dana, BHEDHA are over, dandam dashagunam bhaveth. Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: chanchal malviya > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:24 am > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > To: Javed , reader-list at sarai.net > > > It is time for Hindus to rise now... > > And no dicussion or virtual communities can stop it... > > > > Swami Vivekanand said - India have enough of religion.. > > And it is time now to say this to Christian and Muslims who force > > conversions the same thing.. > > If Sanskrit is the mother of all languages, Hinduism is the mother > > of all Religions... (But two religions have in particular always > > learnt to abuse their mother(Hinduism) - Islam and Christianity)... > > It is time now to stop the nation from producing more Kashmirs... > > It is time now to stop the non-Independent Religious India... > > > > So go on my dear friends as much as you like to abuse Hindus.. > > It hardly matters now.. > > > > Ramayan is proving to be a reality, Mahabharat is a reality.. > > History will also change.. > > It is Hindus that have taught peace to the world.. but to do that > > again, the two attackers have to be checked now.. > > People are doing that.. And will do that.. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Javed > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 6:00:16 PM > > Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > India's Islam > > by Arun Nair > > > > Firstly, I must apologise if this article smacks of an impolite > > urgency and prescriptive-ness. I mean not to be arrogant, but as > > someone addressing you on a matter of deep concern to us all, I felt > > that there was little room for ceremonial apologies before every > > sentence. Also, as an Indian middle-class Hindu who grew up in the > > Babri-masjid 90s, it is easy for me to say some of the things I say > > here. > > > > Secondly, I address you, the reader, as an Indian citizen, not as a > > saintly Kabir or Gandhi preaching love for humanity. Our collective > > interests are being threatened by communal forces from within and > > without. WE MUST ACT. We must not merely lament about our respective > > versions of helplessnesses and others' faults. We are free today > > because India's greatest generation shook off the ghosts that > > bedevilled them, and took action to protect our interests. I implore > > you to continue that legacy. > > > > Thirdly, while I will go into what in my opinion are highly plausible > > theories of Indian nationhood and nationalism, my primary aim here is > > not to write any treatise on politics or sociology, but to protect our > > rights to belong equally to India – our common ancestral land – as > > Indians, and as free, dignified humans. > > > > Fourthly, my ideas will be presented largely based on first > > principles, also known as common-sense. > > > > My thesis is this: India must boldly assert its claim on Islamic > > civilisation in the subcontinent. That is the key to end our communal > > woes. > > > > This does not mean that India must become Islamic, or that Indian > > Muslims must be somehow Hinduised. The idea, instead, is to campaign > > relentlessly for India's Islamic civilisational authenticity. > > > > In the Indian psyche, Pakistan stands for Islam. Sadly for us and > > admittedly in a weaker form, Islam is also synonymous with Pakistan > > and everything Pakistani. This wouldn't have been so bad if Pakistan > > wasn't, well, un-Indian. We must use every tool at our disposal as a > > people to destroy the entrenched idea of Pakistani ownership of > > subcontinental Islam from within India. More importantly, this idea > > must be attacked from without it, because that is where it originates. > > > > Our chief weapon to eliminate Islam-Pakistan hyphenation from the > > subcontinent will be an authentic claim: the centre of Islamic > > civilisation in South Asia has always been undivided India, and after > > partition, India is its natural primary heir. The fact that a few > > million Muslims left India during partition to settle in our erstwhile > > outlying provinces doesn't change this. Neither does the fact that the > > Indian people chose a progressive, secular, democratic polity for > > their republic. > > > > In our minds and in the world's view, subcontinental Islam is under > > Pakistani occupation. The historical Indo-centric nature of > > subcontinental Islam should be used to throw off this psychological > > yoke. I urge Indians to rally together once again as our greatest > > generation did to protect our collective interests as the people of > > India. I urge friends of India all over the world to join us. Both in > > terms of geography and spirit, Islam in the subcontinent that > > coexisted and flourished alongside Indic cultures, has always been > > more Indian than Pakistani. If any single country represents > > subcontinental Islam as it historically was, it is India. Not > > Pakistan. > > > > India's Mughals. India's Qutub Minar, Gol Gumaz, and Taj Mahal. > > India's Kabir. India's Tipu Sultan, Shah Jahan, Akbar, and, why not, > > Aurangazeb. India's Urdu. India's Ghalib and Khusro. India's Delhi, > > Lucknow, Mysore, Hyderabad, Malabar, and Agra. > > > > Good history has to be deliberately written > > > > The people of India inherited thousands of years of history and > > associated baggage that we didn't really ask for. > > > > Keep in mind though that history is not a dead object - it is > > unfurling even as you read this. We may not be able to change what > > happened in India 200 years ago. But 200 years from now when people > > look back, they will see the Indian history that our generation wrote. > > It becomes then our duty, both as Indians and as sensible humans, to > > write it well. > > > > It is a great privilege to deliberately be able to write a part of > > something grand like the history of India. The first generation of > > Indians who did a coordinated job of writing our history was the one > > that won us our independence – our "freedom-generation". They could > > have attempted to write their Indian chapter any way they wanted to. > > We could have had a dark, China-style communism, for instance. But, > > given the Indian context, the freedom-generation chose the most > > egalitarian, elegant, and humanist theme they could come up with: a > > secular, liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, that takes its > > strength from its inherent pluralism and its inheritance of one of > > mankind's greatest civilisations. > > > > The freedom-generation's legacy for us is the deliberate and > > intelligent manner in which they forged an Indian national identity. > > Thanks to their efforts, our nationality is a solid concept. An Indian > > from Karnataka has a robust nationalistic bond with Indians say from > > Punjab, Gujarat, Assam, or Delhi. Regardless of what languages we > > speak, we all recognise Marathi, Tamil, Bengali and Telugu as Indian > > languages – ancestral assets that all Indians collectively own. > > > > It is a mistake, however, to think that the nation-building task they > > began is complete. Indian nationalism is not an idea frozen in time, > > but an evolving one. We, the successors of India's freedom-generation, > > must exercise our prerogative to define its finer contours and bring > > in new ideas to enrich it. Furthermore, we have an obligation to both > > our founding fathers and India's posterity to do this while being true > > to our quintessential Indian-ness, the just, egalitarian nature of our > > country as embodied in our constitution. > > > > Given that India's situation is not as pressing as it once was, new > > nationalist leaders – giants of the stature of Mahatma Gandhi, Khan > > Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Subhash Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh, Jawaharlal > > Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad or Vallabhai Patel – may be difficult to > > emerge. There is no need to though. We succeeded them, and we must > > take this task upon ourselves. The freedom-generation watches over us > > in the form of our fraternity as Indians which they moulded at a great > > cost, and our constitution. > > > > Indian Nationalism - the idea of Indian brotherhood > > > > Amidst all this noisy consternation of Taslima Nasrin, Babri-masjid, > > BJP-Congress etc., its easy to lose sight of the really big pictures. > > Consider, for instance, this question: what really is the essence of > > Indian nationalism? Why do we all feel so closely tied to India > > and to > > each other? > > > > My answer is that, to put it simply, without the land we call India, > > Indians either have no identity, or very anaemic identities. All > > Indians share this same curious relation to India. > > When we are born to the same human mother, we are brothers. Our > > constitution formed by our freedom-generation explicitly asserts > > fraternity among the Indian people. Fraternity – brotherhood. In what > > sense are we brothers? > > > > Indians are brothers in the sense that the motherland that birthed my > > identity, also birthed yours. India is our ancestral land, and we > > should be proud of everything associated with it. Everything in India, > > its religions, its good and its bad, its languages, its glories and > > struggles, its rivers, its emperors, its heroes and villains, > > everything – is intricately weaved into our consciousnesses of who we > > are, where we come from, what our place in this world is, and how > > other humans see us. Without that identity, we are crippled. > > > > Ours is no ordinary brotherhood. Indian people didn't come into being > > merely a few centuries ago. We are an ancient civilisation, and what > > we have is a civlisational brotherhood – a bond arising from all of > > our belonging to the civilisation that unfolded in the same land, > > India. That brotherhood was formally declared through the constitution > > in 1949, but it existed much before that. Before our greatest > > generation gave it a concrete wording in the 20th century, it was well > > moulded in the crucible that is our land, in the fire of the previous > > several dozen, if not more, centuries. > > > > Every country of the world has stories that define their national > > essences. What is the most essential feature of Indian > > nationalism? It > > is our Indian identity – our being tied to India, and our > > civilisational brotherhood to each other in being bonded so. All > > Indians, regardless of their religion or language, has this bond with > > India and with each other. > > Indians must pause for a while and think why our anthem's going over > > our landmarks is so emotive. Or why Hindu-Muslim-Sikh-Christian > > insignia are powerful. Or why merely thinking of our history, or our > > Kerala, Karnataka, Maharashtra, UP, Punjab and Bengal moves all of us > > equally. > > > > It's because they remind us of our organic ties to India, and the > > brotherhood that we have with each other. This natural bond given to > > us by our glorious and at times bloody history is important. If we > > don't uphold this bond with the ferocity that our greatest generation > > did, if we don't use it to protect our common interests, our country > > will remain weak. > > > > Our country's nature > > > > What is the nature of our country? What does it mean for something > > to be Indian? > > For one, if all of us Indians could get together today and declare in > > one voice that India stands for certain values, then that would be an > > authoritative statement. India is what Indians say it is. If, say, the > > people of the then-Indian civilisation – Hindus, Muslims, Christians, > > Buddhists, Sikhs, and Jains – had made such a statement 400 years ago > > and preserved its spirit through centuries, that would have probably > > have been one of the greatest Indian texts. > > > > If you will recall, a very similar event actually did happen in 1949, > > when the founding fathers of the Indian republic adopted, enacted, and > > gave to ourselves - the sovereign people of India - our constitution. > > The preamble reads, > > > > "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India > > into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure > > to all its citizens: > > JUSTICE, social, economic and political; > > LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; > > EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among them all > > FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and > > integrity of the Nation. > > IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, > > do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION." > > > > In an absolute sense, the values of justice, liberty, and equality > > have an intuitive appeal to all humans everywhere. However, the > > formidable authority of our constitution comes from the crushed but > > proud people who paid a very high price for our right to live as > > equals and as dignified humans in India. We must take their word for > > what India is – they must have known and dreamt quite a bit about it. > > > > India's greatest generation definitely realised that divisivism, > > self-doubt, and other demons from our past would haunt the republic > > they formed. Which is why the constitution is important. It helps us > > protect our country from ourselves. > > > > The Constitution. Indian Nationalism. How we will defend India. > > > > Those who doubt the moral power of our freedom-generation, our > > constitutional ethos, and Indian nationalism need only look at > > Pakistan, which renounced all these in its attempts not to be seen as > > Indian. Pakistan's leaders, in trying to defend their divisve national > > philosophy, forced the most horrible bankruptcy on its people. > > > > Rather than using Indian nationalism and the constitution to tackle > > our communal issues, I am appalled at the general trend to merely > > lament that India is on its way to being declared an non-secular state > > - the hundreds of millions of Indians fully intent on preventing this > > notwithstanding. > > > > Pakistan-style Islamism, Ummah-isation of Hinduism, alienation of > > Indian Muslims > > > > There are three major trends in India today that are relevant to > > our topic. > > > > Firstly, India has very serious conflicts of interest with Pakistan. > > We have gone to war with that country several times. Its society has > > issues with radicalisation and a general religious orthodoxy. Its > > regimes have relentlessly attacked India's internal fault-lines over > > the past few decades in the name of Islam. Tens of thousands of Indian > > soldiers have died defending our country against them. It is > > distinctly un-Indian and anti-Indian. > > > > Secondly, Hinduism is, for the lack of a better word, Ummah-ising, and > > this at times takes horrifyingly militant forms. I, given my personal > > biases, am all for Hindu solidarity and abolishing pseudo-secularism. > > However, an argument for Hindu-solidarity should not be allowed to > > take the form of an un-Indian religionalism that goes against the very > > spirit of India. > > > > Thirdly, Indian Muslims feel alienated from their own country. In > > India, Pakistan is synonymous with Islam. Unfortunately, Islam is also > > weakly synonymous with Pakistan. This has significantly undermined > > Indian Muslims' political standing in India vis-a-vis their fellow > > citizens. > > > > The havoc all this has wreaked on our society must not be ignored. > > India was home to one of humanity's greatest Islamic cultures for well > > over 1000 years. It is not, by any means, a dead part of our > > culture - > > nearly 160 million Indians are Muslims, several national icons are > > Muslims, mosques and Islamic architecture litter the country, and > > Muslim holidays are shared by all. And yet, to a lot of Indians, Islam > > doesn't feel Indian, but Pakistani. Despite their respective religious > > majorities, it is odd that Buddhism doesn't feel Sri Lankan, or > > Hinduism itself, Nepali. > > > > The partition of India and secular India's deprivation of its Islamic > > authenticity > > > > Has anyone thought what has actually happened here? Why is it that in > > India, an ancient civilisational land which has a unique Islamic > > culture just like Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, Islam is seen as somehow > > foreign? That is not because of Islam's being inconsistent with India > > – 1000 years and more of history and our combined freedom struggle > > should have proven this by now. > > > > During partition, founders of Pakistan expropriated the subcontinent's > > Islamic identity for defining their nation, Pakistan. Pakistan's > > struggle to keep its ideology alive has robbed us of our Islamic > > authenticity. India's secular nature not-withstanding, the ardour with > > which Pakistan argued itsideology and pushed its exclusivist national > > philosophy within the larger Islamic community ensured that it gained > > some traction in the Indian society. Pakistan's military conflicts > > with "Hindu" India only amplified this. > > > > It only takes a few of decades of intense activity for a new Zeitgeist > > to take root in a society. Consider denazification of Germany, China's > > turn into capitalism, and India's own economic liberalisation. 30 > > years – that is all it takes for a young generation to grow up shaped > > by a pervasive ideology. > > > > Though quite smaller than India, Pakistan is by no means a tiny > > nation. It is the world's 6th most populous country, one of its major > > economies, and a prominent player during the cold war. One cannot find > > fault with it - Pakistan had to defend its national philosophy. It has > > expended a tremendous amount of national effort over the last 60 years > > in achieving a strong association between subcontinental Islam and > > itself. > > > > They have succeeded splendidly. Islam in the subcontinent today is > > seen as prominently Pakistani and India's secular fabric warped by > > that perception. Pakistan is an Islamic nation - this somehow gives > > them a stronger claim on everything Islamic in the subcontinent. The > > world simply does not recognise India's Islamic authenticity, and > > neither do many Indians within. India continues to be associated > > primarily with Hinduism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, but not Islam. > > > > Does religious brotherhood entirely negate the organic bonds a human > > has to his ancestral land and its history, and to his fellow humans > > who share the same bonds as him? I don't really know. What I do know > > is that this is not the principle on which the Indian republic was > > founded, and its definitely not an Indian value. Religious supremacism > > and breaking up of Indian people are un-Indian philosophies. It goes > > against the very spirit of our freedom struggle, nationalism, and our > > constitution. > > > > Indians must remember that new Pakistani generations do not even have > > the same right to speak for India's Muslims that their earlier > > generations might have had. Indian democracy has proven this > > unnecessary anyway. > > > > Indo-Pak culture-drift and attempts at an unnatural bonhomie > > > > There is a delusion among the political class and Indian people that > > our shared past can be used to achieve friendly relations between > > India and Pakistan. My view is that in doing so, we are only > > reinforcing the internal Islam-Pakistan hyphenation. > > > > When historical developments asunder a people, over a period of time > > the newly formed groups drift increasingly farther from one another. > > Once upon time, Myanmar and Sri Lanka were part of India, just like > > Pakistan and Bangladesh. Afghanistan was part of several Indian > > empires. Today, though at a national level we have very cordial > > relations, they are distinctly unfamiliar to us. > > > > Such a natural drift has definitely taken place between India and > > Pakistan. The strongest bond between us that keeps us in each others' > > national memories is not anything positive that we share, but the > > acrid legacy of partition. It's hard for me as an Indian, for > > instance, to imagine such an Islamism taking hold of Pakistan if it > > were under Akbar's rule. That is, if it were under genuinely > > Indian-style Islamic rule. > > > > I am not suggesting we should actively pursue enmity with Pakistan or > > vilify it. However, its being clumped together with Indian Muslims is > > simply not healthy for India. What has Pakistan's 'leadership' of > > subcontinental Muslims, its advocacy of religious supremacism within, > > and its enmity with India effectively accomplished? It has robbed > > India of its genuine Islamic authenticity in the world's eyes, and > > caused non-Muslim Indians to reject the culture of an un-Indian enemy. > > Pakistan has highlighted Indian Muslims' being Islamic and > =3E consistently de-emphasized their being Indian. > > > > Pursuing an unnatural bonhomie with Pakistan and stressing our > > similarities with them will only weaken our case for our differences, > > which are very real. To uphold our national interest, we must assert > > and amplify these differences. > > > > Replace Islam-Pakistan hyphenation with Islam-India hyphenation in the > > subcontinent > > > > I urge Indians to spearhead a change of perception of Islam in the > > subcontinent. Anything that prevents Indian Muslims' fully asserting > > their claim on India as Indian citizens is against the national > > interest. The strong association in India between subcontinental Islam > > and the present day un-Indian Pakistan must go. > > > > It is tempting to claim that all South Asian countries share Islamic > > civilization equally. It may be polite and civil to do so, and it may > > even have some historical merit, but it's a weak claim for our > > purposes. It doesn't have the necessary boldness and self-conviction > > to be effective. It also doesn't forcefully argue for India's Islamic > > authenticity. Our aim is to end Islam-Pakistan hyphenation for the > > welfare of a billion humans, not to be fair observers of history. We > > must hence push the strongest nationalistic claim possible: Islam in > > the subcontinent is Indian, and it always has been. > > > > Indian Islam never 'went' anywhere – it is alive and well amidst us. > > Our nationalism and constitution are guarantees that it will > > thrive if > > Pakistan would let go of it. When the world thinks of Hinduism in > > South Asia, it thinks of India. Sikhism, it thinks of India. Buddhism, > > India. When it thinks of Islam in South Asia, it must think of India. > > Everyone in the subcontinent will be better off. Everyone. > > > > The idea that Islam in the subcontinent is primarily Indian can gain > > currency only through a concerted nationalist campaign. No apologies > > should be made for such a movement. No one need be convinced of its > > proponents' "patriotism". The obvious worthiness of the cause, its > > truth, and its urgency are justifications enough. > > > > What ideas might such a campaign seek to make current? > > > > The countries in our region share an intertwined, messy history. We > > have a lot in common - languages, religions, culture, quirks - all > > part of our common and colourful heritage. > > > > However, if our historical and religious assets must be divided > > amongst us, then the worthiest inheritor of Islamic heritage in the > > subcontinent can only be India. Not Pakistan, not Bangladesh, not Sri > > Lanka, not Myanmar, not Nepal. India is the only nation that has been > > true to the historical spirit of Indian Islam – that of flourishing > > alongside other Indic faiths in India. > > > > Slay our demons ourselves > > > > Has it ever struck you that in our country, we have a vicious > > circularity of the following sort: we feel dismayed that the > > country/political class/leadership has done nothing for us; a form of > > apathy and resignation sets in; the country/political class/leadership > > continues to do nothing; we feel increasingly more dismayed. > > > > We are a democracy. We individually must act. Things won't happen > > if we don't. > > I urge Indians to assert India's secularism and nationalism to fight > > alienation of the Muslim community from Indian mainstream. This battle > > is the easier one to win – there are hundreds of millions of > > reasonable Indians, the Indian constitution, the liberal press, the > > legacy of our freedom-generation, and truth and justice on our side. > > > > I also urge Indians to fight Pakistani supremacy of subcontinental > > Islam from the outside. That is the root of all our problems. That is > > the key battle in India's war against communalism. We must learn to > > say, "Thanks, but no thanks. I understand what you mean, but this is > > not really true" to anyone who stresses commonalities of any sort in > > the subcontinent. > > > > Who will go first? > > > > Based on the concept of ownership of our destiny, what are the answers > > to these questions: > > > > "But how can non-Muslims claim that Islam in the subcontinent is > > Indian when it is represented by Pakistan and Indian Muslims > > themselves imply so?" > > > > "How can Indian Muslims make the Indo-centric claim when there is a > > genuine sense of their alienation in India and rest of Indian society > > accuses them of siding with Pakistan. We cannot move against Pakstani > > Muslims. There is a lot in common between us." > > > > I don't know! I am definitely going, in my own way. That I know. I > > will not ever treat any Indian by as automatically allied with a > > foreign, inimical power. I will continue making people aware of the > > need to end the subcontinental Islam-Pakistan association and replace > > it with Islam-India. > > > > We shall NOT vilify. We shall have faith. > > > > Indians should stop vilifying each other. Not because it would be > > saintly to do so, but because it only weakens our unity. > > > > Our nationalism and our constitution are solid stuff. Our greatest > > generation did their job well. If we must challenge our fellow > > Indians, invoke these instruments. Face with stead-fast stoicism any > > slurs, any accusations of you being an anti-Indian Muslim or a > > communal Hindutvawadi. Let the diatribe die down. Repeat your > > arguments invoking our nationalism, constitution, and your reasoning > > again. Do not ask anyone to 'prove' his or her patriotism. It's > > demeaning to do so. > > > > Satyameva Jayate – truth alone triumphs. If you are right, you will > > win. Have faith in our country and in every Indians' goodness and > > genuine attachment to their land. > > > > Augmenting India's ideological basis > > > > Earlier I mentioned that our work on Indian nationhood is not a frozen > > process, but a continuing one. We can and must correct any earlier > > mistakes that continue to torment India's communal harmony. > > > > If the greatest challenge the freedom-generation faced was ending the > > British rule and forming a stable republic, the greatest challenge > > before us is to take back leadership of subcontinental Islam from > > Pakistan. Our challenge is to do this without sacrificing India's > > secular nature. > > > > To tackle our new communal challenges in the 21st century, I propose > > the following: > > 1. Secularism will continue to remain the Indian union's lynch > > pin. It > > should not, however, require any particular religious group's giving > > up their right to assert religious solidarity. We should genuinely > > address any concerns about hypocrisy in the name of secularism. > > > > 2. India is a mature concept, and we should actively use it to tackle > > the challenges before us. Secularism is an integral part of our > > nationhood and a historically irreversible development. It follows > > that religionalism – wherever it is practised – is distinctly > > un-Indian. Within India, it is also anti-Indian in the sense that they > > weaken India and goes against its spirit. > > > > 3. The natural heir to Islamic civilisation in the subcontinent is > > India. Subcontinental Islam has always been an Indian phenomenon. > > Pakistan's oft-reinforced association with Indian Muslims must be > > destroyed. > > > > 4. India's brotherhood with its neighbours is dying. Soon there will > > be an Indian generation which doesn't have a single Indian born before > > partition. Every single human in the subcontinent would have been born > > in the countries as they existed after partition. The continuing > > attempts to maintain an unnatural bonhomie with India's hostile > > neighbours is not a tenable project - Pakistan has moved too far away > > from what was once India. > > > > Indian Muslims. India's Islam. > > > > A shockingly large amount of our national energy is wasted in > > countering the effects of Islam-Pakistan hyphenation in the > > subcontinent. > > > > The solution is simple. Reclaim the part of Indian identity that was > > robbed of us some 60 years back. If India is Hindu, then for similar > > reasons, it is also Buddhist, Sikh, Christian - and Islamic. Purported > > authority over sub-continental Islam by other entities in the > > subcontinent is an outrageous farce that must be ended right away. > > > > There is no obligation to do this meekly. India doesn't have > > merely a > > substantial claim or merely an equal claim. It simply has more right > > to subcontinental Islamic heritage than anyone else by an > > overwhelmingly large margin, period. We must use it for our national > > well-being. > > > > Who can assert subcontinental Islam's Indian nature boldly, loudly, > > without an iota of self-doubt or hesitation? Who needs this to be done > > most urgently? Who suffers from a deprivation of their right to belong > > to India the most? The Hindus? Sikhs? Buddhists? Christians? Jains? > > Clearly not. Who else? > > > > The Indian Muslims. The others are left distinctly poorer and their > > country's communal harmony stressed, but their Indian genuineness is > > unquestioned within India and the world over. There is not going > > to be > > an un-Indian leader-nation for India's Sikhs, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists > > and Christians in our neighbourhood any time soon. > > > > http://indianmuslims.in/indias-islam/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping_________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=220 From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Sun Jan 20 18:23:35 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:53:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Message-ID: <518230.19941.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> How many bombs you have thrown.. Ask this to them... Not us... We are reacting.. They are acting... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:19:37 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society....!? We bomb them and they bomb us and we bomb them and they bomb us together we bomb us then who is left to bomb...? KC > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:33:09 +0500 > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > Hi, true, it for too long hindus have been tolerent leading to a sarcastic comment that they are cowards, may be Nehru was coward when India was divided for his greed,may be Krishna menon loved chinese vaginas more than indian ones, but now it is time that hindu understood the value of SAMA, Dana, BHEDHA are over, dandam dashagunam bhaveth. Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: chanchal malviya > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:24 am > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > To: Javed , reader-list at sarai.net > > > It is time for Hindus to rise now... > > And no dicussion or virtual communities can stop it... > > > > Swami Vivekanand said - India have enough of religion.. > > And it is time now to say this to Christian and Muslims who force > > conversions the same thing.. > > If Sanskrit is the mother of all languages, Hinduism is the mother > > of all Religions... (But two religions have in particular always > > learnt to abuse their mother(Hinduism) - Islam and Christianity)... > > It is time now to stop the nation from producing more Kashmirs... > > It is time now to stop the non-Independent Religious India... > > > > So go on my dear friends as much as you like to abuse Hindus.. > > It hardly matters now.. > > > > Ramayan is proving to be a reality, Mahabharat is a reality.. > > History will also change.. > > It is Hindus that have taught peace to the world.. but to do that > > again, the two attackers have to be checked now.. > > People are doing that.. And will do that.. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Javed > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 6:00:16 PM > > Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > India's Islam > > by Arun Nair > > > > Firstly, I must apologise if this article smacks of an impolite > > urgency and prescriptive-ness. I mean not to be arrogant, but as > > someone addressing you on a matter of deep concern to us all, I felt > > that there was little room for ceremonial apologies before every > > sentence. Also, as an Indian middle-class Hindu who grew up in the > > Babri-masjid 90s, it is easy for me to say some of the things I say > > here. > > > > Secondly, I address you, the reader, as an Indian citizen, not as a > > saintly Kabir or Gandhi preaching love for humanity. Our collective > > interests are being threatened by communal forces from within and > > without. WE MUST ACT. We must not merely lament about our respective > > versions of helplessnesses and others' faults. We are free today > > because India's greatest generation shook off the ghosts that > > bedevilled them, and took action to protect our interests. I implore > > you to continue that legacy. > > > > Thirdly, while I will go into what in my opinion are highly plausible > > theories of Indian nationhood and nationalism, my primary aim here is > > not to write any treatise on politics or sociology, but to protect our > > rights to belong equally to India – our common ancestral land – as > > Indians, and as free, dignified humans. > > > > Fourthly, my ideas will be presented largely based on first > > principles, also known as common-sense. > > > > My thesis is this: India must boldly assert its claim on Islamic > > civilisation in the subcontinent. That is the key to end our communal > > woes. > > > > This does not mean that India must become Islamic, or that Indian > > Muslims must be somehow Hinduised. The idea, instead, is to campaign > > relentlessly for India's Islamic civilisational authenticity. > > > > In the Indian psyche, Pakistan stands for Islam. Sadly for us and > > admittedly in a weaker form, Islam is also synonymous with Pakistan > > and everything Pakistani. This wouldn't have been so bad if Pakistan > > wasn't, well, un-Indian. We must use every tool at our disposal as a > > people to destroy the entrenched idea of Pakistani ownership of > > subcontinental Islam from within India. More importantly, this idea > > must be attacked from without it, because that is where it originates. > > > > Our chief weapon to eliminate Islam-Pakistan hyphenation from the > > subcontinent will be an authentic claim: the centre of Islamic > > civilisation in South Asia has always been undivided India, and after > > partition, India is its natural primary heir. The fact that a few > > million Muslims left India during partition to settle in our erstwhile > > outlying provinces doesn't change this. Neither does the fact that the > > Indian people chose a progressive, secular, democratic polity for > > their republic. > > > > In our minds and in the world's view, subcontinental Islam is under > > Pakistani occupation. The historical Indo-centric nature of > > subcontinental Islam should be used to throw off this psychological > > yoke. I urge Indians to rally together once again as our greatest > > generation did to protect our collective interests as the people of > > India. I urge friends of India all over the world to join us. Both in > > terms of geography and spirit, Islam in the subcontinent that > > coexisted and flourished alongside Indic cultures, has always been > > more Indian than Pakistani. If any single country represents > > subcontinental Islam as it historically was, it is India. Not > > Pakistan. > > > > India's Mughals. India's Qutub Minar, Gol Gumaz, and Taj Mahal. > > India's Kabir. India's Tipu Sultan, Shah Jahan, Akbar, and, why not, > > Aurangazeb. India's Urdu. India's Ghalib and Khusro. India's Delhi, > > Lucknow, Mysore, Hyderabad, Malabar, and Agra. > > > > Good history has to be deliberately written > > > > The people of India inherited thousands of years of history and > > associated baggage that we didn't really ask for. > > > > Keep in mind though that history is not a dead object - it is > > unfurling even as you read this. We may not be able to change what > > happened in India 200 years ago. But 200 years from now when people > > look back, they will see the Indian history that our generation wrote. > > It becomes then our duty, both as Indians and as sensible humans, to > > write it well. > > > > It is a great privilege to deliberately be able to write a part of > > something grand like the history of India. The first generation of > > Indians who did a coordinated job of writing our history was the one > > that won us our independence – our "freedom-generation". They could > > have attempted to write their Indian chapter any way they wanted to. > > We could have had a dark, China-style communism, for instance. But, > > given the Indian context, the freedom-generation chose the most > > egalitarian, elegant, and humanist theme they could come up with: a > > secular, liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, that takes its > > strength from its inherent pluralism and its inheritance of one of > > mankind's greatest civilisations. > > > > The freedom-generation's legacy for us is the deliberate and > > intelligent manner in which they forged an Indian national identity. > > Thanks to their efforts, our nationality is a solid concept. An Indian > > from Karnataka has a robust nationalistic bond with Indians say from > > Punjab, Gujarat, Assam, or Delhi. Regardless of what languages we > > speak, we all recognise Marathi, Tamil, Bengali and Telugu as Indian > > languages – ancestral assets that all Indians collectively own. > > > > It is a mistake, however, to think that the nation-building task they > > began is complete. Indian nationalism is not an idea frozen in time, > > but an evolving one. We, the successors of India's freedom-generation, > > must exercise our prerogative to define its finer contours and bring > > in new ideas to enrich it. Furthermore, we have an obligation to both > > our founding fathers and India's posterity to do this while being true > > to our quintessential Indian-ness, the just, egalitarian nature of our > > country as embodied in our constitution. > > > > Given that India's situation is not as pressing as it once was, new > > nationalist leaders – giants of the stature of Mahatma Gandhi, Khan > > Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Subhash Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh, Jawaharlal > > Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad or Vallabhai Patel – may be difficult to > > emerge. There is no need to though. We succeeded them, and we must > > take this task upon ourselves. The freedom-generation watches over us > > in the form of our fraternity as Indians which they moulded at a great > > cost, and our constitution. > > > > Indian Nationalism - the idea of Indian brotherhood > > > > Amidst all this noisy consternation of Taslima Nasrin, Babri-masjid, > > BJP-Congress etc., its easy to lose sight of the really big pictures. > > Consider, for instance, this question: what really is the essence of > > Indian nationalism? Why do we all feel so closely tied to India > > and to > > each other? > > > > My answer is that, to put it simply, without the land we call India, > > Indians either have no identity, or very anaemic identities. All > > Indians share this same curious relation to India. > > When we are born to the same human mother, we are brothers. Our > > constitution formed by our freedom-generation explicitly asserts > > fraternity among the Indian people. Fraternity – brotherhood. In what > > sense are we brothers? > > > > Indians are brothers in the sense that the motherland that birthed my > > identity, also birthed yours. India is our ancestral land, and we > > should be proud of everything associated with it. Everything in India, > > its religions, its good and its bad, its languages, its glories and > > struggles, its rivers, its emperors, its heroes and villains, > > everything – is intricately weaved into our consciousnesses of who we > > are, where we come from, what our place in this world is, and how > > other humans see us. Without that identity, we are crippled. > > > > Ours is no ordinary brotherhood. Indian people didn't come into being > > merely a few centuries ago. We are an ancient civilisation, and what > > we have is a civlisational brotherhood – a bond arising from all of > > our belonging to the civilisation that unfolded in the same land, > > India. That brotherhood was formally declared through the constitution > > in 1949, but it existed much before that. Before our greatest > > generation gave it a concrete wording in the 20th century, it was well > > moulded in the crucible that is our land, in the fire of the previous > > several dozen, if not more, centuries. > > > > Every country of the world has stories that define their national > > essences. What is the most essential feature of Indian > > nationalism? It > > is our Indian identity – our being tied to India, and our > > civilisational brotherhood to each other in being bonded so. All > > Indians, regardless of their religion or language, has this bond with > > India and with each other. > > Indians must pause for a while and think why our anthem's going over > > our landmarks is so emotive. Or why Hindu-Muslim-Sikh-Christian > > insignia are powerful. Or why merely thinking of our history, or our > > Kerala, Karnataka, Maharashtra, UP, Punjab and Bengal moves all of us > > equally. > > > > It's because they remind us of our organic ties to India, and the > > brotherhood that we have with each other. This natural bond given to > > us by our glorious and at times bloody history is important. If we > > don't uphold this bond with the ferocity that our greatest generation > > did, if we don't use it to protect our common interests, our country > > will remain weak. > > > > Our country's nature > > > > What is the nature of our country? What does it mean for something > > to be Indian? > > For one, if all of us Indians could get together today and declare in > > one voice that India stands for certain values, then that would be an > > authoritative statement. India is what Indians say it is. If, say, the > > people of the then-Indian civilisation – Hindus, Muslims, Christians, > > Buddhists, Sikhs, and Jains – had made such a statement 400 years ago > > and preserved its spirit through centuries, that would have probably > > have been one of the greatest Indian texts. > > > > If you will recall, a very similar event actually did happen in 1949, > > when the founding fathers of the Indian republic adopted, enacted, and > > gave to ourselves - the sovereign people of India - our constitution. > > The preamble reads, > > > > "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India > > into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure > > to all its citizens: > > JUSTICE, social, economic and political; > > LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; > > EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among them all > > FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and > > integrity of the Nation. > > IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, > > do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION." > > > > In an absolute sense, the values of justice, liberty, and equality > > have an intuitive appeal to all humans everywhere. However, the > > formidable authority of our constitution comes from the crushed but > > proud people who paid a very high price for our right to live as > > equals and as dignified humans in India. We must take their word for > > what India is – they must have known and dreamt quite a bit about it. > > > > India's greatest generation definitely realised that divisivism, > > self-doubt, and other demons from our past would haunt the republic > > they formed. Which is why the constitution is important. It helps us > > protect our country from ourselves. > > > > The Constitution. Indian Nationalism. How we will defend India. > > > > Those who doubt the moral power of our freedom-generation, our > > constitutional ethos, and Indian nationalism need only look at > > Pakistan, which renounced all these in its attempts not to be seen as > > Indian. Pakistan's leaders, in trying to defend their divisve national > > philosophy, forced the most horrible bankruptcy on its people. > > > > Rather than using Indian nationalism and the constitution to tackle > > our communal issues, I am appalled at the general trend to merely > > lament that India is on its way to being declared an non-secular state > > - the hundreds of millions of Indians fully intent on preventing this > > notwithstanding. > > > > Pakistan-style Islamism, Ummah-isation of Hinduism, alienation of > > Indian Muslims > > > > There are three major trends in India today that are relevant to > > our topic. > > > > Firstly, India has very serious conflicts of interest with Pakistan. > > We have gone to war with that country several times. Its society has > > issues with radicalisation and a general religious orthodoxy. Its > > regimes have relentlessly attacked India's internal fault-lines over > > the past few decades in the name of Islam. Tens of thousands of Indian > > soldiers have died defending our country against them. It is > > distinctly un-Indian and anti-Indian. > > > > Secondly, Hinduism is, for the lack of a better word, Ummah-ising, and > > this at times takes horrifyingly militant forms. I, given my personal > > biases, am all for Hindu solidarity and abolishing pseudo-secularism. > > However, an argument for Hindu-solidarity should not be allowed to > > take the form of an un-Indian religionalism that goes against the very > > spirit of India. > > > > Thirdly, Indian Muslims feel alienated from their own country. In > > India, Pakistan is synonymous with Islam. Unfortunately, Islam is also > > weakly synonymous with Pakistan. This has significantly undermined > > Indian Muslims' political standing in India vis-a-vis their fellow > > citizens. > > > > The havoc all this has wreaked on our society must not be ignored. > > India was home to one of humanity's greatest Islamic cultures for well > > over 1000 years. It is not, by any means, a dead part of our > > culture - > > nearly 160 million Indians are Muslims, several national icons are > > Muslims, mosques and Islamic architecture litter the country, and > > Muslim holidays are shared by all. And yet, to a lot of Indians, Islam > > doesn't feel Indian, but Pakistani. Despite their respective religious > > majorities, it is odd that Buddhism doesn't feel Sri Lankan, or > > Hinduism itself, Nepali. > > > > The partition of India and secular India's deprivation of its Islamic > > authenticity > > > > Has anyone thought what has actually happened here? Why is it that in > > India, an ancient civilisational land which has a unique Islamic > > culture just like Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, Islam is seen as somehow > > foreign? That is not because of Islam's being inconsistent with India > > – 1000 years and more of history and our combined freedom struggle > > should have proven this by now. > > > > During partition, founders of Pakistan expropriated the subcontinent's > > Islamic identity for defining their nation, Pakistan. Pakistan's > > struggle to keep its ideology alive has robbed us of our Islamic > > authenticity. India's secular nature not-withstanding, the ardour with > > which Pakistan argued itsideology and pushed its exclusivist national > > philosophy within the larger Islamic community ensured that it gained > > some traction in the Indian society. Pakistan's military conflicts > > with "Hindu" India only amplified this. > > > > It only takes a few of decades of intense activity for a new Zeitgeist > > to take root in a society. Consider denazification of Germany, China's > > turn into capitalism, and India's own economic liberalisation. 30 > > years – that is all it takes for a young generation to grow up shaped > > by a pervasive ideology. > > > > Though quite smaller than India, Pakistan is by no means a tiny > > nation. It is the world's 6th most populous country, one of its major > > economies, and a prominent player during the cold war. One cannot find > > fault with it - Pakistan had to defend its national philosophy. It has > > expended a tremendous amount of national effort over the last 60 years > > in achieving a strong association between subcontinental Islam and > > itself. > > > > They have succeeded splendidly. Islam in the subcontinent today is > > seen as prominently Pakistani and India's secular fabric warped by > > that perception. Pakistan is an Islamic nation - this somehow gives > > them a stronger claim on everything Islamic in the subcontinent. The > > world simply does not recognise India's Islamic authenticity, and > > neither do many Indians within. India continues to be associated > > primarily with Hinduism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, but not Islam. > > > > Does religious brotherhood entirely negate the organic bonds a human > > has to his ancestral land and its history, and to his fellow humans > > who share the same bonds as him? I don't really know. What I do know > > is that this is not the principle on which the Indian republic was > > founded, and its definitely not an Indian value. Religious supremacism > > and breaking up of Indian people are un-Indian philosophies. It goes > > against the very spirit of our freedom struggle, nationalism, and our > > constitution. > > > > Indians must remember that new Pakistani generations do not even have > > the same right to speak for India's Muslims that their earlier > > generations might have had. Indian democracy has proven this > > unnecessary anyway. > > > > Indo-Pak culture-drift and attempts at an unnatural bonhomie > > > > There is a delusion among the political class and Indian people that > > our shared past can be used to achieve friendly relations between > > India and Pakistan. My view is that in doing so, we are only > > reinforcing the internal Islam-Pakistan hyphenation. > > > > When historical developments asunder a people, over a period of time > > the newly formed groups drift increasingly farther from one another. > > Once upon time, Myanmar and Sri Lanka were part of India, just like > > Pakistan and Bangladesh. Afghanistan was part of several Indian > > empires. Today, though at a national level we have very cordial > > relations, they are distinctly unfamiliar to us. > > > > Such a natural drift has definitely taken place between India and > > Pakistan. The strongest bond between us that keeps us in each others' > > national memories is not anything positive that we share, but the > > acrid legacy of partition. It's hard for me as an Indian, for > > instance, to imagine such an Islamism taking hold of Pakistan if it > > were under Akbar's rule. That is, if it were under genuinely > > Indian-style Islamic rule. > > > > I am not suggesting we should actively pursue enmity with Pakistan or > > vilify it. However, its being clumped together with Indian Muslims is > > simply not healthy for India. What has Pakistan's 'leadership' of > > subcontinental Muslims, its advocacy of religious supremacism within, > > and its enmity with India effectively accomplished? It has robbed > > India of its genuine Islamic authenticity in the world's eyes, and > > caused non-Muslim Indians to reject the culture of an un-Indian enemy. > > Pakistan has highlighted Indian Muslims' being Islamic and > =3E consistently de-emphasized their being Indian. > > > > Pursuing an unnatural bonhomie with Pakistan and stressing our > > similarities with them will only weaken our case for our differences, > > which are very real. To uphold our national interest, we must assert > > and amplify these differences. > > > > Replace Islam-Pakistan hyphenation with Islam-India hyphenation in the > > subcontinent > > > > I urge Indians to spearhead a change of perception of Islam in the > > subcontinent. Anything that prevents Indian Muslims' fully asserting > > their claim on India as Indian citizens is against the national > > interest. The strong association in India between subcontinental Islam > > and the present day un-Indian Pakistan must go. > > > > It is tempting to claim that all South Asian countries share Islamic > > civilization equally. It may be polite and civil to do so, and it may > > even have some historical merit, but it's a weak claim for our > > purposes. It doesn't have the necessary boldness and self-conviction > > to be effective. It also doesn't forcefully argue for India's Islamic > > authenticity. Our aim is to end Islam-Pakistan hyphenation for the > > welfare of a billion humans, not to be fair observers of history. We > > must hence push the strongest nationalistic claim possible: Islam in > > the subcontinent is Indian, and it always has been. > > > > Indian Islam never 'went' anywhere – it is alive and well amidst us. > > Our nationalism and constitution are guarantees that it will > > thrive if > > Pakistan would let go of it. When the world thinks of Hinduism in > > South Asia, it thinks of India. Sikhism, it thinks of India. Buddhism, > > India. When it thinks of Islam in South Asia, it must think of India. > > Everyone in the subcontinent will be better off. Everyone. > > > > The idea that Islam in the subcontinent is primarily Indian can gain > > currency only through a concerted nationalist campaign. No apologies > > should be made for such a movement. No one need be convinced of its > > proponents' "patriotism". The obvious worthiness of the cause, its > > truth, and its urgency are justifications enough. > > > > What ideas might such a campaign seek to make current? > > > > The countries in our region share an intertwined, messy history. We > > have a lot in common - languages, religions, culture, quirks - all > > part of our common and colourful heritage. > > > > However, if our historical and religious assets must be divided > > amongst us, then the worthiest inheritor of Islamic heritage in the > > subcontinent can only be India. Not Pakistan, not Bangladesh, not Sri > > Lanka, not Myanmar, not Nepal. India is the only nation that has been > > true to the historical spirit of Indian Islam – that of flourishing > > alongside other Indic faiths in India. > > > > Slay our demons ourselves > > > > Has it ever struck you that in our country, we have a vicious > > circularity of the following sort: we feel dismayed that the > > country/political class/leadership has done nothing for us; a form of > > apathy and resignation sets in; the country/political class/leadership > > continues to do nothing; we feel increasingly more dismayed. > > > > We are a democracy. We individually must act. Things won't happen > > if we don't. > > I urge Indians to assert India's secularism and nationalism to fight > > alienation of the Muslim community from Indian mainstream. This battle > > is the easier one to win – there are hundreds of millions of > > reasonable Indians, the Indian constitution, the liberal press, the > > legacy of our freedom-generation, and truth and justice on our side. > > > > I also urge Indians to fight Pakistani supremacy of subcontinental > > Islam from the outside. That is the root of all our problems. That is > > the key battle in India's war against communalism. We must learn to > > say, "Thanks, but no thanks. I understand what you mean, but this is > > not really true" to anyone who stresses commonalities of any sort in > > the subcontinent. > > > > Who will go first? > > > > Based on the concept of ownership of our destiny, what are the answers > > to these questions: > > > > "But how can non-Muslims claim that Islam in the subcontinent is > > Indian when it is represented by Pakistan and Indian Muslims > > themselves imply so?" > > > > "How can Indian Muslims make the Indo-centric claim when there is a > > genuine sense of their alienation in India and rest of Indian society > > accuses them of siding with Pakistan. We cannot move against Pakstani > > Muslims. There is a lot in common between us." > > > > I don't know! I am definitely going, in my own way. That I know. I > > will not ever treat any Indian by as automatically allied with a > > foreign, inimical power. I will continue making people aware of the > > need to end the subcontinental Islam-Pakistan association and replace > > it with Islam-India. > > > > We shall NOT vilify. We shall have faith. > > > > Indians should stop vilifying each other. Not because it would be > > saintly to do so, but because it only weakens our unity. > > > > Our nationalism and our constitution are solid stuff. Our greatest > > generation did their job well. If we must challenge our fellow > > Indians, invoke these instruments. Face with stead-fast stoicism any > > slurs, any accusations of you being an anti-Indian Muslim or a > > communal Hindutvawadi. Let the diatribe die down. Repeat your > > arguments invoking our nationalism, constitution, and your reasoning > > again. Do not ask anyone to 'prove' his or her patriotism. It's > > demeaning to do so. > > > > Satyameva Jayate – truth alone triumphs. If you are right, you will > > win. Have faith in our country and in every Indians' goodness and > > genuine attachment to their land. > > > > Augmenting India's ideological basis > > > > Earlier I mentioned that our work on Indian nationhood is not a frozen > > process, but a continuing one. We can and must correct any earlier > > mistakes that continue to torment India's communal harmony. > > > > If the greatest challenge the freedom-generation faced was ending the > > British rule and forming a stable republic, the greatest challenge > > before us is to take back leadership of subcontinental Islam from > > Pakistan. Our challenge is to do this without sacrificing India's > > secular nature. > > > > To tackle our new communal challenges in the 21st century, I propose > > the following: > > 1. Secularism will continue to remain the Indian union's lynch > > pin. It > > should not, however, require any particular religious group's giving > > up their right to assert religious solidarity. We should genuinely > > address any concerns about hypocrisy in the name of secularism. > > > > 2. India is a mature concept, and we should actively use it to tackle > > the challenges before us. Secularism is an integral part of our > > nationhood and a historically irreversible development. It follows > > that religionalism – wherever it is practised – is distinctly > > un-Indian. Within India, it is also anti-Indian in the sense that they > > weaken India and goes against its spirit. > > > > 3. The natural heir to Islamic civilisation in the subcontinent is > > India. Subcontinental Islam has always been an Indian phenomenon. > > Pakistan's oft-reinforced association with Indian Muslims must be > > destroyed. > > > > 4. India's brotherhood with its neighbours is dying. Soon there will > > be an Indian generation which doesn't have a single Indian born before > > partition. Every single human in the subcontinent would have been born > > in the countries as they existed after partition. The continuing > > attempts to maintain an unnatural bonhomie with India's hostile > > neighbours is not a tenable project - Pakistan has moved too far away > > from what was once India. > > > > Indian Muslims. India's Islam. > > > > A shockingly large amount of our national energy is wasted in > > countering the effects of Islam-Pakistan hyphenation in the > > subcontinent. > > > > The solution is simple. Reclaim the part of Indian identity that was > > robbed of us some 60 years back. If India is Hindu, then for similar > > reasons, it is also Buddhist, Sikh, Christian - and Islamic. Purported > > authority over sub-continental Islam by other entities in the > > subcontinent is an outrageous farce that must be ended right away. > > > > There is no obligation to do this meekly. India doesn't have > > merely a > > substantial claim or merely an equal claim. It simply has more right > > to subcontinental Islamic heritage than anyone else by an > > overwhelmingly large margin, period. We must use it for our national > > well-being. > > > > Who can assert subcontinental Islam's Indian nature boldly, loudly, > > without an iota of self-doubt or hesitation? Who needs this to be done > > most urgently? Who suffers from a deprivation of their right to belong > > to India the most? The Hindus? Sikhs? Buddhists? Christians? Jains? > > Clearly not. Who else? > > > > The Indian Muslims. The others are left distinctly poorer and their > > country's communal harmony stressed, but their Indian genuineness is > > unquestioned within India and the world over. There is not going > > to be > > an un-Indian leader-nation for India's Sikhs, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists > > and Christians in our neighbourhood any time soon. > > > > http://indianmuslims.in/indias-islam/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping_________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=220 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From javedmasoo at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 18:43:46 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 18:43:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] what non-Muslims say about Quran, Islam Message-ID: Dear Chanchal ji If you have read Quran and found only war and terror in it, why do so many non-Muslim scholars and philosophers (including Mahatma Gandhi and K. S. Ramakrishna Rao) have said so many great things about it. Please read these quotes carefully. Some of these people are actually saying just the reverse of what you claim. ===== Thomas Carlyle in 'Heroes and Hero Worship and the Heroic in History,' 1840: "The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only." "A silent great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle the world, the world's Maker had ordered so." A. S. Tritton in 'Islam,' 1951: The picture of the Muslim soldier advancing with a sword in one hand and the Qur'an in the other is quite false. De Lacy O'Leary in 'Islam at the Crossroads,' London, 1923: History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated. Gibbon in 'The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' 1823: The good sense of Muhammad despised the pomp of royalty. The Apostle of God submitted to the menial offices of the family; he kindled the fire; swept the floor; milked the ewes; and mended with his own hands his shoes and garments. Disdaining the penance and merit of a hermit, he observed without effort of vanity the abstemious diet of an Arab. Edward Gibbon and Simon Oakley in 'History of the Saracen Empire,' London, 1870: "The greatest success of Mohammad's life was effected by sheer moral force." "It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved after the revolutions of twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish proselytes of the Koran....The Mahometans have uniformly withstood the temptation of reducing the object of their faith and devotion to a level with the senses and imagination of man. 'I believe in One God and Mahomet the Apostle of God' is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honors of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion." Reverend Bosworth Smith in 'Muhammad and Muhammadanism,' London, 1874: "Head of the State as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without the Pope's pretensions, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar, without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a police force, without a fixed revenue. If ever a man ruled by a right divine, it was Muhammad, for he had all the powers without their supports. He cared not for the dressings of power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his public life." "In Mohammadanism every thing is different here. Instead of the shadowy and the mysterious, we have history....We know of the external history of Muhammad.... while for his internal history after his mission had been proclaimed, we have a book absolutely unique in its origin, in its preservation....on the Substantial authority of which no one has ever been able to cast a serious doubt." Edward Montet, 'La Propagande Chretienne et ses Adversaries Musulmans,' Paris 1890. (Also in T.W. Arnold in 'The Preaching of Islam,' London 1913.): "Islam is a religion that is essentially rationalistic in the widest sense of this term considered etymologically and historically....the teachings of the Prophet, the Qur'an has invariably kept its place as the fundamental starting point, and the dogma of unity of God has always been proclaimed therein with a grandeur a majesty, an invariable purity and with a note of sure conviction, which it is hard to find surpassed outside the pale of Islam....A creed so precise, so stripped of all theological complexities and consequently so accessible to the ordinary understanding might be expected to possess and does indeed possess a marvelous power of winning its way into the consciences of men." Alphonse de LaMartaine in 'Historie de la Turquie,' Paris, 1854: "Never has a man set for himself, voluntarily or involuntarily, a more sublime aim, since this aim was superhuman; to subvert superstitions which had been imposed between man and his Creator, to render God unto man and man unto God; to restore the rational and sacred idea of divinity amidst the chaos of the material and disfigured gods of idolatry, then existing. Never has a man undertaken a work so far beyond human power with so feeble means, for he (Muhammad) had in the conception as well as in the execution of such a great design, no other instrument than himself and no other aid except a handful of men living in a corner of the desert. Finally, never has a man accomplished such a huge and lasting revolution in the world, because in less than two centuries after its appearance, Islam, in faith and in arms, reigned over the whole of Arabia, and conquered, in God's name, Persia Khorasan, Transoxania, Western India, Syria, Egypt, Abyssinia, all the known continent of Northern Africa, numerous islands of the Mediterranean Sea, Spain, and part of Gaul. "If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astonishing results are the three criteria of a human genius, who could dare compare any great man in history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws, and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples, dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and the souls. "On the basis of a Book, every letter which has become law, he created a spiritual nationality which blend together peoples of every tongue and race. He has left the indelible characteristic of this Muslim nationality the hatred of false gods and the passion for the One and Immaterial God. This avenging patriotism against the profanation of Heaven formed the virtue of the followers of Muhammad; the conquest of one-third the earth to the dogma was his miracle; or rather it was not the miracle of man but that of reason. "The idea of the unity of God, proclaimed amidst the exhaustion of the fabulous theogonies, was in itself such a miracle that upon it's utterance from his lips it destroyed all the ancient temples of idols and set on fire one-third of the world. His life, his meditations, his heroic revelings against the superstitions of his country, and his boldness in defying the furies of idolatry, his firmness in enduring them for fifteen years in Mecca, his acceptance of the role of public scorn and almost of being a victim of his fellow countrymen... This dogma was twofold the unity of God and the immateriality of God: the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words. "Philosopher, Orator, Apostle, Legislator, Conqueror of Ideas, Restorer of Rational beliefs.... The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?" Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in 'Young India,'1924: I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life. Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936: "If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam." I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity." "I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today." Michael Hart in 'The 100, A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons In History,' New York, 1978: My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the secular and religious level. ...It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. ...It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history. Dr. William Draper in 'History of Intellectual Development of Europe': Four years after the death of Justinian, A.D. 569, was born in Mecca, in Arabia, the man who, of all men, has exercised the greatest influence upon the human race... To be the religious head of many empires, to guide the daily life of one-third of the human race, may perhaps justify the title of a Messenger of God. Arthur Glyn Leonard in 'Islam, Her Moral and Spiritual Values': It was the genius of Muhammad, the spirit that he breathed into the Arabs through the soul of Islam that exalted them. That raised them out of the lethargy and low level of tribal stagnation up to the high watermark of national unity and empire. It was in the sublimity of Muhammad's deism, the simplicity, the sobriety and purity it inculcated the fidelity of its founder to his own tenets, that acted on their moral and intellectual fiber with all the magnetism of true inspiration. Philip K. Hitti in 'History of the Arabs': Within a brief span of mortal life, Muhammad called forth of unpromising material, a nation, never welded before; in a country that was hitherto but a geographical expression he established a religion which in vast areas suppressed Christianity and Judaism, and laid the basis of an empire that was soon to embrace within its far flung boundaries the fairest provinces the then civilized world. Rodwell in the Preface to his translation of the Holy Qur'an: Mohammad's career is a wonderful instance of the force and life that resides in him who possesses an intense faith in God and in the unseen world. He will always be regarded as one of those who have had that influence over the faith, morals and whole earthly life of their fellow men, which none but a really great man ever did, or can exercise; and whose efforts to propagate a great verity will prosper. W. Montgomery Watt in 'Muhammad at Mecca,' Oxford, 1953: His readiness to undergo persecution for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as a leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement - all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems that it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.... Thus, not merely must we credit Muhammad with essential honesty and integrity of purpose, if we are to understand him at all; if we are to correct the errors we have inherited from the past, we must not forget the conclusive proof is a much stricter requirement than a show of plausibility, and in a matter such as this only to be attained with difficulty. D. G. Hogarth in 'Arabia': Serious or trivial, his daily behavior has instituted a canon which millions observe this day with conscious memory. No one regarded by any section of the human race as Perfect Man has ever been imitated so minutely. The conduct of the founder of Christianity has not governed the ordinary life of his followers. Moreover, no founder of a religion has left on so solitary an eminence as the Muslim apostle. Washington Irving 'Mahomet and His Successors': He was sober and abstemious in his diet and a rigorous observer of fasts. He indulged in no magnificence of apparel, the ostentation of a petty mind; neither was his simplicity in dress affected but a result of real disregard for distinction from so trivial a source. In his private dealings he was just. He treated friends and strangers, the rich and poor, the powerful and weak, with equity, and was beloved by the common people for the affability with which he received them, and listened to their complaints. His military triumphs awakened no pride nor vain glory, as they would have done had they been effected for selfish purposes. In the time of his greatest power he maintained the same simplicity of manners and appearance as in the days of his adversity. So far from affecting a regal state, he was displeased if, on entering a room, any unusual testimonials of respect were shown to him. If he aimed at a universal dominion, it was the dominion of faith; as to the temporal rule which grew up in his hands, as he used it without ostentation, so he took no step to perpetuate it in his family. James Michener in 'Islam: The Misunderstood Religion,' Reader's Digest, May 1955, pp. 68-70: "No other religion in history spread so rapidly as Islam. The West has widely believed that this surge of religion was made possible by the sword. But no modern scholar accepts this idea, and the Qur'an is explicit in the support of the freedom of conscience." "Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God's word sensing his own inadequacy. But the Angel commanded 'Read'. So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one God"." "In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred and rumors of God 's personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, 'An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human being'." "At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: 'If there are any among you who worshiped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you Worshiped, He lives for ever'." Lawrence E. Browne in 'The Prospects of Islam,' 1944: Incidentally these well-established facts dispose of the idea so widely fostered in Christian writings that the Muslims, wherever they went, forced people to accept Islam at the point of the sword. K. S. Ramakrishna Rao in 'Mohammed: The Prophet of Islam,' 1989 My problem to write this monograph is easier, because we are not generally fed now on that (distorted) kind of history and much time need not be spent on pointing out our misrepresentations of Islam. The theory of Islam and sword, for instance, is not heard now in any quarter worth the name. The principle of Islam that "there is no compulsion in religion" is well known. Napolean Bonaparte as Quoted in Christian Cherfils, 'Bonaparte et Islam,' Pedone Ed., Paris, France, 1914, pp. 105, 125. Original References: "Correspondance de Napoléon Ier Tome V pièce n° 4287 du 17/07/1799..." "Moses has revealed the existence of God to his nation. Jesus Christ to the Roman world, Muhammad to the old continent... "Arabia was idolatrous when, six centuries after Jesus, Muhammad introduced the worship of the God of Abraham, of Ishmael, of Moses, and Jesus. The Ariyans and some other sects had disturbed the tranquility of the east by agitating the question of the nature of the Father, the son, and the Holy Ghost. Muhammad declared that there was none but one God who had no father, no son and that the trinity imported the idea of idolatry... "I hope the time is not far off when I shall be able to unite all the wise and educated men of all the countries and establish a uniform regime based on the principles of Qur'an which alone are true and which alone can lead men to happiness." Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936. "If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam." "I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity." "I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today." Bertrand Russel in 'History of Western Philosophy,' London, 1948, p. 419. "Our use of phrase 'The Dark ages' to cover the period from 699 to 1,000 marks our undue concentration on Western Europe... "From India to Spain, the brilliant civilization of Islam flourished. What was lost to christendom at this time was not lost to civilization, but quite the contrary... "To us it seems that West-European civilization is civilization, but this is a narrow view." H.G. Wells "The Islamic teachings have left great traditions for equitable and gentle dealings and behavior, and inspire people with nobility and tolerance. These are human teachings of the highest order and at the same time practicable. These teachings brought into existence a society in which hard-heartedness and collective oppression and injustice were the least as compared with all other societies preceding it....Islam is replete with gentleness, courtesy, and fraternity." Dr. William Draper in 'History of Intellectual Development of Europe' "During the period of the Caliphs the learned men of the Christians and the Jews were not only held in great esteem but were appointed to posts of great responsibility, and were promoted to the high ranking job in the government....He (Caliph Haroon Rasheed) never considered to which country a learned person belonged nor his faith and belief, but only his excellence in the field of learning." Thomas Carlyle in 'Heroes, Hero Worship, and the Heroic in History,' Lecture 2, Friday, 8th May 1840. "As there is no danger of our becoming, any of us, Mahometans (i.e. Muslim), I mean to say all the good of him I justly can... "When Pococke inquired of Grotius, where the proof was of that story of the pigeon, trained to pick peas from Mahomet's (Muhammad's) ear, and pass for an angel dictating to him? Grotius answered that there was no proof!... "A poor, hard-toiling, ill-provided man; careless of what vulgar men toil for. Not a bad man, I should say; Something better in him than hunger of any sort, -- or these wild arab men, fighting and jostling three-and-twenty years at his hand, in close contact with him always, would not revered him so! They were wild men bursting ever and anon into quarrel, into all kinds of fierce sincerity; without right worth and manhood, no man could have commanded them. They called him prophet you say? Why he stood there face to face with them; bare, not enshrined in any mystry; visibly clouting his own cloak, cobbling his own shoes; fighting, counselling, ordering in the midst of them: they must have seen what kind of man he was, let him be called what you like! No emperor with his tiaras was obeyed as this man in a cloak of his own clouting. During three-and-twenty years of rough actual trial. I find something of a veritable Hero necessary for that, of itself... "These Arabs, the man Mahomet, and that one century, - is it not as if a spark had fallen, one spark, on a world of what proves explosive powder, blazes heaven-high from Delhi to Granada! I said, the Great man was always as lightning out of Heaven; the rest of men waited for him like fuel, and then they too would flame..." Phillip Hitti in 'Short History of the Arabs.' "During all the first part of the Middle Ages, no other people made as important a contribution to human progress as did the Arabs, if we take this term to mean all those whose mother-tongue was Arabic, and not merely those living in the Arabian peninsula. For centuries, Arabic was the language of learning, culture and intellectual progress for the whole of the civilized world with the exception of the Far East. From the IXth to the XIIth century there were more philosophical, medical, historical, religiuos, astronomical and geographical works written in Arabic than in any other human tongue." Carra de Vaux in 'The Philosophers of Islam,' Paris, 1921. "Finally how can one forget that at the same time the Mogul Empire of India (1526-1857 C.E.) was giving the world the Taj Mahal (completed in 1648 C.E.) the architectural beauty of which has never been surpassed, and the 'Akbar Nameh' of Abul Fazl: "That extraordinary work full of life ideas and learning where every aspect of life is examined listed and classified, and where progress continually dazzles the eye, is a document of which Orientalcivilization may justly be proud. The men whose genius finds its expression in this book were far in advance of their age in the practical art of government, and they were perhaps in advance of it in their speculations about religious philosophy. Those poets those philosophers knew how to deal with the world or matter. They observe, classify, calculate and experiment. All the ideas that occur to them are tested against facts. They express them with eloquence but they also support them with statistics."...the principles of tolerance, justice and humanity which prevailed during the long reign of Akbar." Marcel Clerget in 'La Turquie, Passe et Present,' Paris, 1938. "Many proofs of high cultural level of the Ottoman Empire during the reign of Suleiman the Magnificent are to be found in the development of science and law; in the flowering of literary works in Arabic, Persian and Turkish; in the contemporary monuments in Istanbul, Bursa, and Edirne; in the boom in luxury industries; in the sumptuous life of the court and high dignitaries, and last but not least in its religious tolerance. All the various influences - notably Turkish, Byzantine and Italian mingle together and help to make this the most brilliant epoch of the Ottomans." Michael the Elder (Great) as Quoted in 'Michael the Elder, Chronique de Michael Syrien, Patriarche Jacobite d' Antioche,' J.B. Chabot, Editor, Vol. II, Paris, 1901. "This is why the God of vengeance, who alone is all-powerful, and changes the empire of mortals as He will, giving it to whomsoever He will, and uplifting the humble beholding the wickedness of the Romans who throughout their dominions, cruelly plundered our churches and our monasteries and condemned us without pity, brought from the region of the south the sons of Ishmael, to deliver us through them from the hands of the Romans. And if in truth we have suffered some loss, because the Catholic churches, that had been taken away from us and given to the Chalcedonians, remained in their possession; for when the cities submitted to the Arabs, they assigned to each denomination the churches which they found it to be in possession of (and at that time the great churches of Emessa and that of Harran had been taken away from us); nevertheless it was no slight advantage for us to be delivered from the cruelty of the Romans, their wickedness, their wrath and cruel zeal against us, and to find ourselves at people. (Michael the Elder, Jacobite Patriarch of Antioch wrote this text in the latter part of the twelfth century, after five centuries of Muslim rule in that region. Click here for a relevant document sent to the monks of St. Catherine Monastery in Mt. Sinai, 628 C.E.) Sir John Bagot Glubb "Khalif (Caliph) Al-Ma'mun's period of rule (813 - 833 C.E.) may be considered the 'golden age' of science and learning. He had always been devoted to books and to learned pursuits. His brilliant mind was interested in every form of intellectual activity. Not only poetry but also philosophy, theology, astronomy, medicine and law all occupied his time." "By Mamun's time medical schools were extremely active in Baghdad. The first free public hospital was opened in Baghdad during the Caliphate of Haroon-ar-Rashid. As the system developed, physicians and surgeons were appointed who gave lectures to medical students and issued diplomas to those who were considered qualified to practice. The first hospital in Egypt was opened in 872 AD and thereafter public hospitals sprang up all over the empire from Spain and the Maghrib to Persia." On the Holocaust of Baghdad (1258 C.E.) Perpetrated by Hulagu: "The city was systematically looted, destroyed and burnt. Eight hundred thousand persons are said to have been killed. The Khalif Mustasim was sewn up in a sack and trampled to death under the feet of Mongol horses. "For five hundred years, Baghdad had been a city of palaces, mosques, libraries and colleges. Its universities and hospitals were the most up-to-date in the world. Nothing now remained but heaps of rubble and a stench of decaying human flesh." from: http://www.cyberistan.org/ From shaishavad1 at sancharnet.in Thu Jan 17 16:23:09 2008 From: shaishavad1 at sancharnet.in (shaishav) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:23:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Film on Girl Child Rights Campaign in Rajasthan Message-ID: <20080117110048.OBRU17833.bgl-svr-sacm-01.bsnl.in@shiv> Respected Rahulji, Greetings from Shaishav Trust, Bhavnagar, Gujarat. Our's is a Child Right Organization working for underpriviledged children at Bhavnagar, Gujarat. We read about Dariya Ki Kasam Girl Child Film. Please send us more detail & guide us to how we purchase this film for our educational purpose. Thanking You. Yours Sincerely, Ashish Raval Shaishav Trust From info at modart-india.net Fri Jan 18 12:52:03 2008 From: info at modart-india.net (Mona) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 12:22:03 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] ModArt International Message-ID: <1181222.UVDUHHOT@modart-india.net> Dear Reader-list, I would like to introduce the first French Fashion Institute in Mumbai, India - ModArt International. ModArt International has been providing education in France / London / South America / Shanghai for the last couple of decades. MOD'ART INDIA is the sister of MOD'ART which is one of the most exclusive Parisian fashion schools. The company decided to build an extension in India because this country become the fastest growing economy in the world and emerges as a prominent protagonist in the field of fashion. Several fashion brands, for instance, are now setting their own operation in India. MOD'ART with its school in Mumbai wants to occupy the centre of this movement. Our purpose is to use the French knowledge in the fashion area in India to fuel the growth of indigenous design. The educational techniques from MOD'ART Paris will allow our Indian students to become very skilled and creative designers. Finally, welcome to MOD'ART. We hope that you will find the possibilities of the fusion between France's fashion tradition and India's dynamic climate as exciting as we do. In India we are introducing 2 courses: DESIGN and PATTERN MAKING : Fashion creation - Fashion design/Pattern making/Accessories Progamme A program divided in 3 years : 4th year in Paris for a Bachelors certificate from the Perpignon University France. Courses are supplemented with practical experience including visits to design studios, hands-on projects and internships. Fashion management French university diploma course 2 choices : 1 year programme of 8 months of intensive studies followed by a work placement or the possibility to follow up in a 2nd year for a French University Master qualification Strong points of this programme : Mobility . Professional experience . French university Diploma If you would like to know more about these courses, please feel free to call me on +9122 26287772 Sincerely, Mona http://www.modart-india.net info at modart-india.net From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Sun Jan 20 22:12:15 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:42:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] what non-Muslims say about Quran, Islam Message-ID: <416896.64213.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mahatma Gandhi never read Quran.. He only read Bhagwad Geeta.. and hence what he said was his perception about Quran as a religion... And forget about what people said... Have courage to discuss it personally... I will have Bhagwad Geeta (the most accepted book of Hindus)... and you quote from that book.. I will also have Quran (the one translated by your writers)... and I quote from that book... Every page of Quran teaches hatred... and many page teaches killings.... I invite you for an open discussion... here on this forum... two books (Don't divert to other books of Hindus, by quoting Dr. Naiks findings, that has already been taken care of and I can provide link where it has been answered)... Let us focus just two books... one yours and one mine... I invite... things would be clear.. ----- Original Message ---- From: Javed To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:43:46 PM Subject: what non-Muslims say about Quran, Islam Dear Chanchal ji If you have read Quran and found only war and terror in it, why do so many non-Muslim scholars and philosophers (including Mahatma Gandhi and K. S. Ramakrishna Rao) have said so many great things about it. Please read these quotes carefully. Some of these people are actually saying just the reverse of what you claim. ===== Thomas Carlyle in 'Heroes and Hero Worship and the Heroic in History,' 1840: "The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only." "A silent great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle the world, the world's Maker had ordered so." A. S. Tritton in 'Islam,' 1951: The picture of the Muslim soldier advancing with a sword in one hand and the Qur'an in the other is quite false. De Lacy O'Leary in 'Islam at the Crossroads,' London, 1923: History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated. Gibbon in 'The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' 1823: The good sense of Muhammad despised the pomp of royalty. The Apostle of God submitted to the menial offices of the family; he kindled the fire; swept the floor; milked the ewes; and mended with his own hands his shoes and garments. Disdaining the penance and merit of a hermit, he observed without effort of vanity the abstemious diet of an Arab. Edward Gibbon and Simon Oakley in 'History of the Saracen Empire,' London, 1870: "The greatest success of Mohammad's life was effected by sheer moral force." "It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved after the revolutions of twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish proselytes of the Koran....The Mahometans have uniformly withstood the temptation of reducing the object of their faith and devotion to a level with the senses and imagination of man. 'I believe in One God and Mahomet the Apostle of God' is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honors of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion." Reverend Bosworth Smith in 'Muhammad and Muhammadanism,' London, 1874: "Head of the State as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without the Pope's pretensions, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar, without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a police force, without a fixed revenue. If ever a man ruled by a right divine, it was Muhammad, for he had all the powers without their supports. He cared not for the dressings of power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his public life." "In Mohammadanism every thing is different here. Instead of the shadowy and the mysterious, we have history....We know of the external history of Muhammad.... while for his internal history after his mission had been proclaimed, we have a book absolutely unique in its origin, in its preservation....on the Substantial authority of which no one has ever been able to cast a serious doubt." Edward Montet, 'La Propagande Chretienne et ses Adversaries Musulmans,' Paris 1890. (Also in T.W. Arnold in 'The Preaching of Islam,' London 1913.): "Islam is a religion that is essentially rationalistic in the widest sense of this term considered etymologically and historically....the teachings of the Prophet, the Qur'an has invariably kept its place as the fundamental starting point, and the dogma of unity of God has always been proclaimed therein with a grandeur a majesty, an invariable purity and with a note of sure conviction, which it is hard to find surpassed outside the pale of Islam....A creed so precise, so stripped of all theological complexities and consequently so accessible to the ordinary understanding might be expected to possess and does indeed possess a marvelous power of winning its way into the consciences of men." Alphonse de LaMartaine in 'Historie de la Turquie,' Paris, 1854: "Never has a man set for himself, voluntarily or involuntarily, a more sublime aim, since this aim was superhuman; to subvert superstitions which had been imposed between man and his Creator, to render God unto man and man unto God; to restore the rational and sacred idea of divinity amidst the chaos of the material and disfigured gods of idolatry, then existing. Never has a man undertaken a work so far beyond human power with so feeble means, for he (Muhammad) had in the conception as well as in the execution of such a great design, no other instrument than himself and no other aid except a handful of men living in a corner of the desert. Finally, never has a man accomplished such a huge and lasting revolution in the world, because in less than two centuries after its appearance, Islam, in faith and in arms, reigned over the whole of Arabia, and conquered, in God's name, Persia Khorasan, Transoxania, Western India, Syria, Egypt, Abyssinia, all the known continent of Northern Africa, numerous islands of the Mediterranean Sea, Spain, and part of Gaul. "If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astonishing results are the three criteria of a human genius, who could dare compare any great man in history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws, and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples, dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and the souls. "On the basis of a Book, every letter which has become law, he created a spiritual nationality which blend together peoples of every tongue and race. He has left the indelible characteristic of this Muslim nationality the hatred of false gods and the passion for the One and Immaterial God. This avenging patriotism against the profanation of Heaven formed the virtue of the followers of Muhammad; the conquest of one-third the earth to the dogma was his miracle; or rather it was not the miracle of man but that of reason. "The idea of the unity of God, proclaimed amidst the exhaustion of the fabulous theogonies, was in itself such a miracle that upon it's utterance from his lips it destroyed all the ancient temples of idols and set on fire one-third of the world. His life, his meditations, his heroic revelings against the superstitions of his country, and his boldness in defying the furies of idolatry, his firmness in enduring them for fifteen years in Mecca, his acceptance of the role of public scorn and almost of being a victim of his fellow countrymen... This dogma was twofold the unity of God and the immateriality of God: the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words. "Philosopher, Orator, Apostle, Legislator, Conqueror of Ideas, Restorer of Rational beliefs.... The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?" Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in 'Young India,'1924: I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life. Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936: "If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam." I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity." "I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today." Michael Hart in 'The 100, A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons In History,' New York, 1978: My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the secular and religious level. ...It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. ...It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history. Dr. William Draper in 'History of Intellectual Development of Europe': Four years after the death of Justinian, A.D. 569, was born in Mecca, in Arabia, the man who, of all men, has exercised the greatest influence upon the human race... To be the religious head of many empires, to guide the daily life of one-third of the human race, may perhaps justify the title of a Messenger of God. Arthur Glyn Leonard in 'Islam, Her Moral and Spiritual Values': It was the genius of Muhammad, the spirit that he breathed into the Arabs through the soul of Islam that exalted them. That raised them out of the lethargy and low level of tribal stagnation up to the high watermark of national unity and empire. It was in the sublimity of Muhammad's deism, the simplicity, the sobriety and purity it inculcated the fidelity of its founder to his own tenets, that acted on their moral and intellectual fiber with all the magnetism of true inspiration. Philip K. Hitti in 'History of the Arabs': Within a brief span of mortal life, Muhammad called forth of unpromising material, a nation, never welded before; in a country that was hitherto but a geographical expression he established a religion which in vast areas suppressed Christianity and Judaism, and laid the basis of an empire that was soon to embrace within its far flung boundaries the fairest provinces the then civilized world. Rodwell in the Preface to his translation of the Holy Qur'an: Mohammad's career is a wonderful instance of the force and life that resides in him who possesses an intense faith in God and in the unseen world. He will always be regarded as one of those who have had that influence over the faith, morals and whole earthly life of their fellow men, which none but a really great man ever did, or can exercise; and whose efforts to propagate a great verity will prosper. W. Montgomery Watt in 'Muhammad at Mecca,' Oxford, 1953: His readiness to undergo persecution for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as a leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement - all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems that it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.... Thus, not merely must we credit Muhammad with essential honesty and integrity of purpose, if we are to understand him at all; if we are to correct the errors we have inherited from the past, we must not forget the conclusive proof is a much stricter requirement than a show of plausibility, and in a matter such as this only to be attained with difficulty. D. G. Hogarth in 'Arabia': Serious or trivial, his daily behavior has instituted a canon which millions observe this day with conscious memory. No one regarded by any section of the human race as Perfect Man has ever been imitated so minutely. The conduct of the founder of Christianity has not governed the ordinary life of his followers. Moreover, no founder of a religion has left on so solitary an eminence as the Muslim apostle. Washington Irving 'Mahomet and His Successors': He was sober and abstemious in his diet and a rigorous observer of fasts. He indulged in no magnificence of apparel, the ostentation of a petty mind; neither was his simplicity in dress affected but a result of real disregard for distinction from so trivial a source. In his private dealings he was just. He treated friends and strangers, the rich and poor, the powerful and weak, with equity, and was beloved by the common people for the affability with which he received them, and listened to their complaints. His military triumphs awakened no pride nor vain glory, as they would have done had they been effected for selfish purposes. In the time of his greatest power he maintained the same simplicity of manners and appearance as in the days of his adversity. So far from affecting a regal state, he was displeased if, on entering a room, any unusual testimonials of respect were shown to him. If he aimed at a universal dominion, it was the dominion of faith; as to the temporal rule which grew up in his hands, as he used it without ostentation, so he took no step to perpetuate it in his family. James Michener in 'Islam: The Misunderstood Religion,' Reader's Digest, May 1955, pp. 68-70: "No other religion in history spread so rapidly as Islam. The West has widely believed that this surge of religion was made possible by the sword. But no modern scholar accepts this idea, and the Qur'an is explicit in the support of the freedom of conscience." "Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God's word sensing his own inadequacy. But the Angel commanded 'Read'. So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one God"." "In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred and rumors of God 's personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, 'An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human being'." "At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: 'If there are any among you who worshiped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you Worshiped, He lives for ever'." Lawrence E. Browne in 'The Prospects of Islam,' 1944: Incidentally these well-established facts dispose of the idea so widely fostered in Christian writings that the Muslims, wherever they went, forced people to accept Islam at the point of the sword. K. S. Ramakrishna Rao in 'Mohammed: The Prophet of Islam,' 1989 My problem to write this monograph is easier, because we are not generally fed now on that (distorted) kind of history and much time need not be spent on pointing out our misrepresentations of Islam. The theory of Islam and sword, for instance, is not heard now in any quarter worth the name. The principle of Islam that "there is no compulsion in religion" is well known. Napolean Bonaparte as Quoted in Christian Cherfils, 'Bonaparte et Islam,' Pedone Ed., Paris, France, 1914, pp. 105, 125. Original References: "Correspondance de Napoléon Ier Tome V pièce n° 4287 du 17/07/1799..." "Moses has revealed the existence of God to his nation. Jesus Christ to the Roman world, Muhammad to the old continent... "Arabia was idolatrous when, six centuries after Jesus, Muhammad introduced the worship of the God of Abraham, of Ishmael, of Moses, and Jesus. The Ariyans and some other sects had disturbed the tranquility of the east by agitating the question of the nature of the Father, the son, and the Holy Ghost. Muhammad declared that there was none but one God who had no father, no son and that the trinity imported the idea of idolatry... "I hope the time is not far off when I shall be able to unite all the wise and educated men of all the countries and establish a uniform regime based on the principles of Qur'an which alone are true and which alone can lead men to happiness." Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936. "If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam." "I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity." "I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today." Bertrand Russel in 'History of Western Philosophy,' London, 1948, p. 419. "Our use of phrase 'The Dark ages' to cover the period from 699 to 1,000 marks our undue concentration on Western Europe... "From India to Spain, the brilliant civilization of Islam flourished. What was lost to christendom at this time was not lost to civilization, but quite the contrary... "To us it seems that West-European civilization is civilization, but this is a narrow view." H.G. Wells "The Islamic teachings have left great traditions for equitable and gentle dealings and behavior, and inspire people with nobility and tolerance. These are human teachings of the highest order and at the same time practicable. These teachings brought into existence a society in which hard-heartedness and collective oppression and injustice were the least as compared with all other societies preceding it....Islam is replete with gentleness, courtesy, and fraternity." Dr. William Draper in 'History of Intellectual Development of Europe' "During the period of the Caliphs the learned men of the Christians and the Jews were not only held in great esteem but were appointed to posts of great responsibility, and were promoted to the high ranking job in the government....He (Caliph Haroon Rasheed) never considered to which country a learned person belonged nor his faith and belief, but only his excellence in the field of learning." Thomas Carlyle in 'Heroes, Hero Worship, and the Heroic in History,' Lecture 2, Friday, 8th May 1840. "As there is no danger of our becoming, any of us, Mahometans (i.e. Muslim), I mean to say all the good of him I justly can... "When Pococke inquired of Grotius, where the proof was of that story of the pigeon, trained to pick peas from Mahomet's (Muhammad's) ear, and pass for an angel dictating to him? Grotius answered that there was no proof!... "A poor, hard-toiling, ill-provided man; careless of what vulgar men toil for. Not a bad man, I should say; Something better in him than hunger of any sort, -- or these wild arab men, fighting and jostling three-and-twenty years at his hand, in close contact with him always, would not revered him so! They were wild men bursting ever and anon into quarrel, into all kinds of fierce sincerity; without right worth and manhood, no man could have commanded them. They called him prophet you say? Why he stood there face to face with them; bare, not enshrined in any mystry; visibly clouting his own cloak, cobbling his own shoes; fighting, counselling, ordering in the midst of them: they must have seen what kind of man he was, let him be called what you like! No emperor with his tiaras was obeyed as this man in a cloak of his own clouting. During three-and-twenty years of rough actual trial. I find something of a veritable Hero necessary for that, of itself... "These Arabs, the man Mahomet, and that one century, - is it not as if a spark had fallen, one spark, on a world of what proves explosive powder, blazes heaven-high from Delhi to Granada! I said, the Great man was always as lightning out of Heaven; the rest of men waited for him like fuel, and then they too would flame..." Phillip Hitti in 'Short History of the Arabs.' "During all the first part of the Middle Ages, no other people made as important a contribution to human progress as did the Arabs, if we take this term to mean all those whose mother-tongue was Arabic, and not merely those living in the Arabian peninsula. For centuries, Arabic was the language of learning, culture and intellectual progress for the whole of the civilized world with the exception of the Far East. From the IXth to the XIIth century there were more philosophical, medical, historical, religiuos, astronomical and geographical works written in Arabic than in any other human tongue." Carra de Vaux in 'The Philosophers of Islam,' Paris, 1921. "Finally how can one forget that at the same time the Mogul Empire of India (1526-1857 C.E.) was giving the world the Taj Mahal (completed in 1648 C.E.) the architectural beauty of which has never been surpassed, and the 'Akbar Nameh' of Abul Fazl: "That extraordinary work full of life ideas and learning where every aspect of life is examined listed and classified, and where progress continually dazzles the eye, is a document of which Oriental civilization may justly be proud. The men whose genius finds its expression in this book were far in advance of their age in the practical art of government, and they were perhaps in advance of it in their speculations about religious philosophy. Those poets those philosophers knew how to deal with the world or matter. They observe, classify, calculate and experiment. All the ideas that occur to them are tested against facts. They express them with eloquence but they also support them with statistics."...the principles of tolerance, justice and humanity which prevailed during the long reign of Akbar." Marcel Clerget in 'La Turquie, Passe et Present,' Paris, 1938. "Many proofs of high cultural level of the Ottoman Empire during the reign of Suleiman the Magnificent are to be found in the development of science and law; in the flowering of literary works in Arabic, Persian and Turkish; in the contemporary monuments in Istanbul, Bursa, and Edirne; in the boom in luxury industries; in the sumptuous life of the court and high dignitaries, and last but not least in its religious tolerance. All the various influences - notably Turkish, Byzantine and Italian mingle together and help to make this the most brilliant epoch of the Ottomans." Michael the Elder (Great) as Quoted in 'Michael the Elder, Chronique de Michael Syrien, Patriarche Jacobite d' Antioche,' J.B. Chabot, Editor, Vol. II, Paris, 1901. "This is why the God of vengeance, who alone is all-powerful, and changes the empire of mortals as He will, giving it to whomsoever He will, and uplifting the humble beholding the wickedness of the Romans who throughout their dominions, cruelly plundered our churches and our monasteries and condemned us without pity, brought from the region of the south the sons of Ishmael, to deliver us through them from the hands of the Romans. And if in truth we have suffered some loss, because the Catholic churches, that had been taken away from us and given to the Chalcedonians, remained in their possession; for when the cities submitted to the Arabs, they assigned to each denomination the churches which they found it to be in possession of (and at that time the great churches of Emessa and that of Harran had been taken away from us); nevertheless it was no slight advantage for us to be delivered from the cruelty of the Romans, their wickedness, their wrath and cruel zeal against us, and to find ourselves at people. (Michael the Elder, Jacobite Patriarch of Antioch wrote this text in the latter part of the twelfth century, after five centuries of Muslim rule in that region. Click here for a relevant document sent to the monks of St. Catherine Monastery in Mt. Sinai, 628 C.E.) Sir John Bagot Glubb "Khalif (Caliph) Al-Ma'mun's period of rule (813 - 833 C.E.) may be considered the 'golden age' of science and learning. He had always been devoted to books and to learned pursuits. His brilliant mind was interested in every form of intellectual activity. Not only poetry but also philosophy, theology, astronomy, medicine and law all occupied his time." "By Mamun's time medical schools were extremely active in Baghdad. The first free public hospital was opened in Baghdad during the Caliphate of Haroon-ar-Rashid. As the system developed, physicians and surgeons were appointed who gave lectures to medical students and issued diplomas to those who were considered qualified to practice. The first hospital in Egypt was opened in 872 AD and thereafter public hospitals sprang up all over the empire from Spain and the Maghrib to Persia." On the Holocaust of Baghdad (1258 C.E.) Perpetrated by Hulagu: "The city was systematically looted, destroyed and burnt. Eight hundred thousand persons are said to have been killed. The Khalif Mustasim was sewn up in a sack and trampled to death under the feet of Mongol horses. "For five hundred years, Baghdad had been a city of palaces, mosques, libraries and colleges. Its universities and hospitals were the most up-to-date in the world. Nothing now remained but heaps of rubble and a stench of decaying human flesh." from: http://www.cyberistan.org/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Sun Jan 20 22:22:57 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:52:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] what non-Muslims say about Quran, Islam Message-ID: <480210.1554.qm@web90402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> One more things on your Quotes... Islam is a child of Christianity, which was even bitter than what Islam is today... Hence, Christians saying about Quran is not a surprise... For your information.. Mahatma Gandhi was not a Historian... nor was he a philosopher or a great learned person.... He had simplicity in his character and sainthood in behavior (unlike any in Islamic history including Mohammad)... And due to that he wanted peace to prevail and not hatred... He knew that it is only Hindus who could be calmed... He knew that Hindu is a peaceful religion don't require a certificate.. But Islam had ever been a murderous religion.. and it required certificate to help people believe that they can still live together... And he had to say so... But time has again disproven what Mahatma told.. His effort are futile on Muslims... Let me see if you can take my challenge... If you do not have Bhagwad Geeta - I can provide you link.. or you can ask Dr. Naik to quote things from there.. I have Quran.. I can take your references if you quote the Surah numbers... I can do the same... Let us find out... Let us attempt to actually prove that Quran teaches peace to this forum also... ----- Original Message ---- From: Javed To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:43:46 PM Subject: what non-Muslims say about Quran, Islam Dear Chanchal ji If you have read Quran and found only war and terror in it, why do so many non-Muslim scholars and philosophers (including Mahatma Gandhi and K. S. Ramakrishna Rao) have said so many great things about it. Please read these quotes carefully. Some of these people are actually saying just the reverse of what you claim. ===== Thomas Carlyle in 'Heroes and Hero Worship and the Heroic in History,' 1840: "The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only." "A silent great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle the world, the world's Maker had ordered so." A. S. Tritton in 'Islam,' 1951: The picture of the Muslim soldier advancing with a sword in one hand and the Qur'an in the other is quite false. De Lacy O'Leary in 'Islam at the Crossroads,' London, 1923: History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated. Gibbon in 'The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' 1823: The good sense of Muhammad despised the pomp of royalty. The Apostle of God submitted to the menial offices of the family; he kindled the fire; swept the floor; milked the ewes; and mended with his own hands his shoes and garments. Disdaining the penance and merit of a hermit, he observed without effort of vanity the abstemious diet of an Arab. Edward Gibbon and Simon Oakley in 'History of the Saracen Empire,' London, 1870: "The greatest success of Mohammad's life was effected by sheer moral force." "It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved after the revolutions of twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish proselytes of the Koran....The Mahometans have uniformly withstood the temptation of reducing the object of their faith and devotion to a level with the senses and imagination of man. 'I believe in One God and Mahomet the Apostle of God' is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honors of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion." Reverend Bosworth Smith in 'Muhammad and Muhammadanism,' London, 1874: "Head of the State as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without the Pope's pretensions, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar, without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a police force, without a fixed revenue. If ever a man ruled by a right divine, it was Muhammad, for he had all the powers without their supports. He cared not for the dressings of power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his public life." "In Mohammadanism every thing is different here. Instead of the shadowy and the mysterious, we have history....We know of the external history of Muhammad.... while for his internal history after his mission had been proclaimed, we have a book absolutely unique in its origin, in its preservation....on the Substantial authority of which no one has ever been able to cast a serious doubt." Edward Montet, 'La Propagande Chretienne et ses Adversaries Musulmans,' Paris 1890. (Also in T.W. Arnold in 'The Preaching of Islam,' London 1913.): "Islam is a religion that is essentially rationalistic in the widest sense of this term considered etymologically and historically....the teachings of the Prophet, the Qur'an has invariably kept its place as the fundamental starting point, and the dogma of unity of God has always been proclaimed therein with a grandeur a majesty, an invariable purity and with a note of sure conviction, which it is hard to find surpassed outside the pale of Islam....A creed so precise, so stripped of all theological complexities and consequently so accessible to the ordinary understanding might be expected to possess and does indeed possess a marvelous power of winning its way into the consciences of men." Alphonse de LaMartaine in 'Historie de la Turquie,' Paris, 1854: "Never has a man set for himself, voluntarily or involuntarily, a more sublime aim, since this aim was superhuman; to subvert superstitions which had been imposed between man and his Creator, to render God unto man and man unto God; to restore the rational and sacred idea of divinity amidst the chaos of the material and disfigured gods of idolatry, then existing. Never has a man undertaken a work so far beyond human power with so feeble means, for he (Muhammad) had in the conception as well as in the execution of such a great design, no other instrument than himself and no other aid except a handful of men living in a corner of the desert. Finally, never has a man accomplished such a huge and lasting revolution in the world, because in less than two centuries after its appearance, Islam, in faith and in arms, reigned over the whole of Arabia, and conquered, in God's name, Persia Khorasan, Transoxania, Western India, Syria, Egypt, Abyssinia, all the known continent of Northern Africa, numerous islands of the Mediterranean Sea, Spain, and part of Gaul. "If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astonishing results are the three criteria of a human genius, who could dare compare any great man in history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws, and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples, dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and the souls. "On the basis of a Book, every letter which has become law, he created a spiritual nationality which blend together peoples of every tongue and race. He has left the indelible characteristic of this Muslim nationality the hatred of false gods and the passion for the One and Immaterial God. This avenging patriotism against the profanation of Heaven formed the virtue of the followers of Muhammad; the conquest of one-third the earth to the dogma was his miracle; or rather it was not the miracle of man but that of reason. "The idea of the unity of God, proclaimed amidst the exhaustion of the fabulous theogonies, was in itself such a miracle that upon it's utterance from his lips it destroyed all the ancient temples of idols and set on fire one-third of the world. His life, his meditations, his heroic revelings against the superstitions of his country, and his boldness in defying the furies of idolatry, his firmness in enduring them for fifteen years in Mecca, his acceptance of the role of public scorn and almost of being a victim of his fellow countrymen... This dogma was twofold the unity of God and the immateriality of God: the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words. "Philosopher, Orator, Apostle, Legislator, Conqueror of Ideas, Restorer of Rational beliefs.... The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?" Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in 'Young India,'1924: I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life. Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936: "If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam." I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity." "I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today." Michael Hart in 'The 100, A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons In History,' New York, 1978: My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the secular and religious level. ...It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. ...It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history. Dr. William Draper in 'History of Intellectual Development of Europe': Four years after the death of Justinian, A.D. 569, was born in Mecca, in Arabia, the man who, of all men, has exercised the greatest influence upon the human race... To be the religious head of many empires, to guide the daily life of one-third of the human race, may perhaps justify the title of a Messenger of God. Arthur Glyn Leonard in 'Islam, Her Moral and Spiritual Values': It was the genius of Muhammad, the spirit that he breathed into the Arabs through the soul of Islam that exalted them. That raised them out of the lethargy and low level of tribal stagnation up to the high watermark of national unity and empire. It was in the sublimity of Muhammad's deism, the simplicity, the sobriety and purity it inculcated the fidelity of its founder to his own tenets, that acted on their moral and intellectual fiber with all the magnetism of true inspiration. Philip K. Hitti in 'History of the Arabs': Within a brief span of mortal life, Muhammad called forth of unpromising material, a nation, never welded before; in a country that was hitherto but a geographical expression he established a religion which in vast areas suppressed Christianity and Judaism, and laid the basis of an empire that was soon to embrace within its far flung boundaries the fairest provinces the then civilized world. Rodwell in the Preface to his translation of the Holy Qur'an: Mohammad's career is a wonderful instance of the force and life that resides in him who possesses an intense faith in God and in the unseen world. He will always be regarded as one of those who have had that influence over the faith, morals and whole earthly life of their fellow men, which none but a really great man ever did, or can exercise; and whose efforts to propagate a great verity will prosper. W. Montgomery Watt in 'Muhammad at Mecca,' Oxford, 1953: His readiness to undergo persecution for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as a leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement - all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems that it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.... Thus, not merely must we credit Muhammad with essential honesty and integrity of purpose, if we are to understand him at all; if we are to correct the errors we have inherited from the past, we must not forget the conclusive proof is a much stricter requirement than a show of plausibility, and in a matter such as this only to be attained with difficulty. D. G. Hogarth in 'Arabia': Serious or trivial, his daily behavior has instituted a canon which millions observe this day with conscious memory. No one regarded by any section of the human race as Perfect Man has ever been imitated so minutely. The conduct of the founder of Christianity has not governed the ordinary life of his followers. Moreover, no founder of a religion has left on so solitary an eminence as the Muslim apostle. Washington Irving 'Mahomet and His Successors': He was sober and abstemious in his diet and a rigorous observer of fasts. He indulged in no magnificence of apparel, the ostentation of a petty mind; neither was his simplicity in dress affected but a result of real disregard for distinction from so trivial a source. In his private dealings he was just. He treated friends and strangers, the rich and poor, the powerful and weak, with equity, and was beloved by the common people for the affability with which he received them, and listened to their complaints. His military triumphs awakened no pride nor vain glory, as they would have done had they been effected for selfish purposes. In the time of his greatest power he maintained the same simplicity of manners and appearance as in the days of his adversity. So far from affecting a regal state, he was displeased if, on entering a room, any unusual testimonials of respect were shown to him. If he aimed at a universal dominion, it was the dominion of faith; as to the temporal rule which grew up in his hands, as he used it without ostentation, so he took no step to perpetuate it in his family. James Michener in 'Islam: The Misunderstood Religion,' Reader's Digest, May 1955, pp. 68-70: "No other religion in history spread so rapidly as Islam. The West has widely believed that this surge of religion was made possible by the sword. But no modern scholar accepts this idea, and the Qur'an is explicit in the support of the freedom of conscience." "Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God's word sensing his own inadequacy. But the Angel commanded 'Read'. So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one God"." "In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred and rumors of God 's personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, 'An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human being'." "At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: 'If there are any among you who worshiped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you Worshiped, He lives for ever'." Lawrence E. Browne in 'The Prospects of Islam,' 1944: Incidentally these well-established facts dispose of the idea so widely fostered in Christian writings that the Muslims, wherever they went, forced people to accept Islam at the point of the sword. K. S. Ramakrishna Rao in 'Mohammed: The Prophet of Islam,' 1989 My problem to write this monograph is easier, because we are not generally fed now on that (distorted) kind of history and much time need not be spent on pointing out our misrepresentations of Islam. The theory of Islam and sword, for instance, is not heard now in any quarter worth the name. The principle of Islam that "there is no compulsion in religion" is well known. Napolean Bonaparte as Quoted in Christian Cherfils, 'Bonaparte et Islam,' Pedone Ed., Paris, France, 1914, pp. 105, 125. Original References: "Correspondance de Napoléon Ier Tome V pièce n° 4287 du 17/07/1799..." "Moses has revealed the existence of God to his nation. Jesus Christ to the Roman world, Muhammad to the old continent... "Arabia was idolatrous when, six centuries after Jesus, Muhammad introduced the worship of the God of Abraham, of Ishmael, of Moses, and Jesus. The Ariyans and some other sects had disturbed the tranquility of the east by agitating the question of the nature of the Father, the son, and the Holy Ghost. Muhammad declared that there was none but one God who had no father, no son and that the trinity imported the idea of idolatry... "I hope the time is not far off when I shall be able to unite all the wise and educated men of all the countries and establish a uniform regime based on the principles of Qur'an which alone are true and which alone can lead men to happiness." Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936. "If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam." "I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity." "I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today." Bertrand Russel in 'History of Western Philosophy,' London, 1948, p. 419. "Our use of phrase 'The Dark ages' to cover the period from 699 to 1,000 marks our undue concentration on Western Europe... "From India to Spain, the brilliant civilization of Islam flourished. What was lost to christendom at this time was not lost to civilization, but quite the contrary... "To us it seems that West-European civilization is civilization, but this is a narrow view." H.G. Wells "The Islamic teachings have left great traditions for equitable and gentle dealings and behavior, and inspire people with nobility and tolerance. These are human teachings of the highest order and at the same time practicable. These teachings brought into existence a society in which hard-heartedness and collective oppression and injustice were the least as compared with all other societies preceding it....Islam is replete with gentleness, courtesy, and fraternity." Dr. William Draper in 'History of Intellectual Development of Europe' "During the period of the Caliphs the learned men of the Christians and the Jews were not only held in great esteem but were appointed to posts of great responsibility, and were promoted to the high ranking job in the government....He (Caliph Haroon Rasheed) never considered to which country a learned person belonged nor his faith and belief, but only his excellence in the field of learning." Thomas Carlyle in 'Heroes, Hero Worship, and the Heroic in History,' Lecture 2, Friday, 8th May 1840. "As there is no danger of our becoming, any of us, Mahometans (i.e. Muslim), I mean to say all the good of him I justly can... "When Pococke inquired of Grotius, where the proof was of that story of the pigeon, trained to pick peas from Mahomet's (Muhammad's) ear, and pass for an angel dictating to him? Grotius answered that there was no proof!... "A poor, hard-toiling, ill-provided man; careless of what vulgar men toil for. Not a bad man, I should say; Something better in him than hunger of any sort, -- or these wild arab men, fighting and jostling three-and-twenty years at his hand, in close contact with him always, would not revered him so! They were wild men bursting ever and anon into quarrel, into all kinds of fierce sincerity; without right worth and manhood, no man could have commanded them. They called him prophet you say? Why he stood there face to face with them; bare, not enshrined in any mystry; visibly clouting his own cloak, cobbling his own shoes; fighting, counselling, ordering in the midst of them: they must have seen what kind of man he was, let him be called what you like! No emperor with his tiaras was obeyed as this man in a cloak of his own clouting. During three-and-twenty years of rough actual trial. I find something of a veritable Hero necessary for that, of itself... "These Arabs, the man Mahomet, and that one century, - is it not as if a spark had fallen, one spark, on a world of what proves explosive powder, blazes heaven-high from Delhi to Granada! I said, the Great man was always as lightning out of Heaven; the rest of men waited for him like fuel, and then they too would flame..." Phillip Hitti in 'Short History of the Arabs.' "During all the first part of the Middle Ages, no other people made as important a contribution to human progress as did the Arabs, if we take this term to mean all those whose mother-tongue was Arabic, and not merely those living in the Arabian peninsula. For centuries, Arabic was the language of learning, culture and intellectual progress for the whole of the civilized world with the exception of the Far East. From the IXth to the XIIth century there were more philosophical, medical, historical, religiuos, astronomical and geographical works written in Arabic than in any other human tongue." Carra de Vaux in 'The Philosophers of Islam,' Paris, 1921. "Finally how can one forget that at the same time the Mogul Empire of India (1526-1857 C.E.) was giving the world the Taj Mahal (completed in 1648 C.E.) the architectural beauty of which has never been surpassed, and the 'Akbar Nameh' of Abul Fazl: "That extraordinary work full of life ideas and learning where every aspect of life is examined listed and classified, and where progress continually dazzles the eye, is a document of which Oriental civilization may justly be proud. The men whose genius finds its expression in this book were far in advance of their age in the practical art of government, and they were perhaps in advance of it in their speculations about religious philosophy. Those poets those philosophers knew how to deal with the world or matter. They observe, classify, calculate and experiment. All the ideas that occur to them are tested against facts. They express them with eloquence but they also support them with statistics."...the principles of tolerance, justice and humanity which prevailed during the long reign of Akbar." Marcel Clerget in 'La Turquie, Passe et Present,' Paris, 1938. "Many proofs of high cultural level of the Ottoman Empire during the reign of Suleiman the Magnificent are to be found in the development of science and law; in the flowering of literary works in Arabic, Persian and Turkish; in the contemporary monuments in Istanbul, Bursa, and Edirne; in the boom in luxury industries; in the sumptuous life of the court and high dignitaries, and last but not least in its religious tolerance. All the various influences - notably Turkish, Byzantine and Italian mingle together and help to make this the most brilliant epoch of the Ottomans." Michael the Elder (Great) as Quoted in 'Michael the Elder, Chronique de Michael Syrien, Patriarche Jacobite d' Antioche,' J.B. Chabot, Editor, Vol. II, Paris, 1901. "This is why the God of vengeance, who alone is all-powerful, and changes the empire of mortals as He will, giving it to whomsoever He will, and uplifting the humble beholding the wickedness of the Romans who throughout their dominions, cruelly plundered our churches and our monasteries and condemned us without pity, brought from the region of the south the sons of Ishmael, to deliver us through them from the hands of the Romans. And if in truth we have suffered some loss, because the Catholic churches, that had been taken away from us and given to the Chalcedonians, remained in their possession; for when the cities submitted to the Arabs, they assigned to each denomination the churches which they found it to be in possession of (and at that time the great churches of Emessa and that of Harran had been taken away from us); nevertheless it was no slight advantage for us to be delivered from the cruelty of the Romans, their wickedness, their wrath and cruel zeal against us, and to find ourselves at people. (Michael the Elder, Jacobite Patriarch of Antioch wrote this text in the latter part of the twelfth century, after five centuries of Muslim rule in that region. Click here for a relevant document sent to the monks of St. Catherine Monastery in Mt. Sinai, 628 C.E.) Sir John Bagot Glubb "Khalif (Caliph) Al-Ma'mun's period of rule (813 - 833 C.E.) may be considered the 'golden age' of science and learning. He had always been devoted to books and to learned pursuits. His brilliant mind was interested in every form of intellectual activity. Not only poetry but also philosophy, theology, astronomy, medicine and law all occupied his time." "By Mamun's time medical schools were extremely active in Baghdad. The first free public hospital was opened in Baghdad during the Caliphate of Haroon-ar-Rashid. As the system developed, physicians and surgeons were appointed who gave lectures to medical students and issued diplomas to those who were considered qualified to practice. The first hospital in Egypt was opened in 872 AD and thereafter public hospitals sprang up all over the empire from Spain and the Maghrib to Persia." On the Holocaust of Baghdad (1258 C.E.) Perpetrated by Hulagu: "The city was systematically looted, destroyed and burnt. Eight hundred thousand persons are said to have been killed. The Khalif Mustasim was sewn up in a sack and trampled to death under the feet of Mongol horses. "For five hundred years, Baghdad had been a city of palaces, mosques, libraries and colleges. Its universities and hospitals were the most up-to-date in the world. Nothing now remained but heaps of rubble and a stench of decaying human flesh." from: http://www.cyberistan.org/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From tulunadu at hotmail.com Sun Jan 20 22:37:06 2008 From: tulunadu at hotmail.com (Krishna Chaithanya) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:37:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. In-Reply-To: <92538.78820.qm@web90410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <92538.78820.qm@web90410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What I know can not be expressed in words. I feel peace within me when I Chant OM SHANTHI SHANTHI SHANTHI. It appears like you you understand what is OM and why there is Three Shanthi. But how come there is no sign of peace! I don't care if any other religion has such slogans in their religious books. It doesn't make any difference to my belief and faith in the Supreme. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:44:33 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com Do you understand also... what is OM and why is there Three Shanti... Do you know any other religion which has such slogans in their religious books... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:28:20 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Om Shanthi Shanti Shanti hi KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:53:35 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net How many bombs you have thrown.. Ask this to them... Not us... We are reacting.. They are acting... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:19:37 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society....!? We bomb them and they bomb us and we bomb them and they bomb us together we bomb us then who is left to bomb...? KC > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:33:09 +0500 > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > Hi, true, it for too long hindus have been tolerent leading to a sarcastic comment that they are cowards, may be Nehru was coward when India was divided for his greed,may be Krishna menon loved chinese vaginas more than indian ones, but now it is time that hindu understood the value of SAMA, Dana, BHEDHA are over, dandam dashagunam bhaveth. Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: chanchal malviya > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:24 am > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > To: Javed , reader-list at sarai.net > > > It is time for Hindus to rise now... > > And no dicussion or virtual communities can stop it... > > > > Swami Vivekanand said - India have enough of religion.. > > And it is time now to say this to Christian and Muslims who force > > conversions the same thing.. > > If Sanskrit is the mother of all languages, Hinduism is the mother > > of all Religions... (But two religions have in particular always > > learnt to abuse their mother(Hinduism) - Islam and Christianity)... > > It is time now to stop the nation from producing more Kashmirs... > > It is time now to stop the non-Independent Religious India... > > > > So go on my dear friends as much as you like to abuse Hindus.. > > It hardly matters now.. > > > > Ramayan is proving to be a reality, Mahabharat is a reality.. > > History will also change.. > > It is Hindus that have taught peace to the world.. but to do that > > again, the two attackers have to be checked now.. > > People are doing that.. And will do that.. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Javed > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 6:00:16 PM > > Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > India's Islam > > by Arun Nair > > > > Firstly, I must apologise if this article smacks of an impolite > > urgency and prescriptive-ness. I mean not to be arrogant, but as > > someone addressing you on a matter of deep concern to us all, I felt > > that there was little room for ceremonial apologies before every > > sentence. Also, as an Indian middle-class Hindu who grew up in the > > Babri-masjid 90s, it is easy for me to say some of the things I say > > here. > > > > Secondly, I address you, the reader, as an Indian citizen, not as a > > saintly Kabir or Gandhi preaching love for humanity. Our collective > > interests are being threatened by communal forces from within and > > without. WE MUST ACT. We must not merely lament about our respective > > versions of helplessnesses and others' faults. We are free today > > because India's greatest generation shook off the ghosts that > > bedevilled them, and took action to protect our interests. I implore > > you to continue that legacy. > > > > Thirdly, while I will go into what in my opinion are highly plausible > > theories of Indian nationhood and nationalism, my primary aim here is > > not to write any treatise on politics or sociology, but to protect our > > rights to belong equally to India – our common ancestral land – as > > Indians, and as free, dignified humans. > > > > Fourthly, my ideas will be presented largely based on first > > principles, also known as common-sense. > > > > My thesis is this: India must boldly assert its claim on Islamic > > civilisation in the subcontinent. That is the key to end our communal > > woes. > > > > This does not mean that India must become Islamic, or that Indian > > Muslims must be somehow Hinduised. The idea, instead, is to campaign > > relentlessly for India's Islamic civilisational authenticity. > > > > In the Indian psyche, Pakistan stands for Islam. Sadly for us and > > admittedly in a weaker form, Islam is also synonymous with Pakistan > > and everything Pakistani. This wouldn't have been so bad if Pakistan > > wasn't, well, un-Indian. We must use every tool at our disposal as a > > people to destroy the entrenched idea of Pakistani ownership of > > subcontinental Islam from within India. More importantly, this idea > > must be attacked from without it, because that is where it originates. > > > > Our chief weapon to eliminate Islam-Pakistan hyphenation from the > > subcontinent will be an authentic claim: the centre of Islamic > > civilisation in South Asia has always been undivided India, and after > > partition, India is its natural primary heir. The fact that a few > > million Muslims left India during partition to settle in our erstwhile > > outlying provinces doesn't change this. Neither does the fact that the > > Indian people chose a progressive, secular, democratic polity for > > their republic. > > > > In our minds and in the world's view, subcontinental Islam is under > > Pakistani occupation. The historical Indo-centric nature of > > subcontinental Islam should be used to throw off this psychological > > yoke. I urge Indians to rally together once again as our greatest > > generation did to protect our collective interests as the people of > > India. I urge friends of India all over the world to join us. Both in > > terms of geography and spirit, Islam in the subcontinent that > > coexisted and flourished alongside Indic cultures, has always been > > more Indian than Pakistani. If any single country represents > > subcontinental Islam as it historically was, it is India. Not > > Pakistan. > > > > India's Mughals. India's Qutub Minar, Gol Gumaz, and Taj Mahal. > > India's Kabir. India's Tipu Sultan, Shah Jahan, Akbar, and, why not, > > Aurangazeb. India's Urdu. India's Ghalib and Khusro. India's Delhi, > > Lucknow, Mysore, Hyderabad, Malabar, and Agra. > > > > Good history has to be deliberately written > > > > The people of India inherited thousands of years of history and > > associated baggage that we didn't really ask for. > > > > Keep in mind though that history is not a dead object - it is > > unfurling even as you read this. We may not be able to change what > > happened in India 200 years ago. But 200 years from now when people > > look back, they will see the Indian history that our generation wrote. > > It becomes then our duty, both as Indians and as sensible humans, to > > write it well. > > > > It is a great privilege to deliberately be able to write a part of > > something grand like the history of India. The first generation of > > Indians who did a coordinated job of writing our history was the one > > that won us our independence – our "freedom-generation". They could > > have attempted to write their Indian chapter any way they wanted to. > > We could have had a dark, China-style communism, for instance. But, > > given the Indian context, the freedom-generation chose the most > > egalitarian, elegant, and humanist theme they could come up with: a > > secular, liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, that takes its > > strength from its inherent pluralism and its inheritance of one of > > mankind's greatest civilisations. > > > > The freedom-generation's legacy for us is the deliberate and > > intelligent manner in which they forged an Indian national identity. > > Thanks to their efforts, our nationality is a solid concept. An Indian > > from Karnataka has a robust nationalistic bond with Indians say from > > Punjab, Gujarat, Assam, or Delhi. Regardless of what languages we > > speak, we all recognise Marathi, Tamil, Bengali and Telugu as Indian > > languages – ancestral assets that all Indians collectively own. > > > > It is a mistake, however, to think that the nation-building task they > > began is complete. Indian nationalism is not an idea frozen in time, > > but an evolving one. We, the successors of India's freedom-generation, > > must exercise our prerogative to define its finer contours and bring > > in new ideas to enrich it. Furthermore, we have an obligation to both > > our founding fathers and India's posterity to do this while being true > > to our quintessential Indian-ness, the just, egalitarian nature of our > > country as embodied in our constitution. > > > > Given that India's situation is not as pressing as it once was, new > > nationalist leaders – giants of the stature of Mahatma Gandhi, Khan > > Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Subhash Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh, Jawaharlal > > Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad or Vallabhai Patel – may be difficult to > > emerge. There is no need to though. We succeeded them, and we must > > take this task upon ourselves. The freedom-generation watches over us > > in the form of our fraternity as Indians which they moulded at a great > > cost, and our constitution. > > > > Indian Nationalism - the idea of Indian brotherhood > > > > Amidst all this noisy consternation of Taslima Nasrin, Babri-masjid, > > BJP-Congress etc., its easy to lose sight of the really big pictures. > > Consider, for instance, this question: what really is the essence of > > Indian nationalism? Why do we all feel so closely tied to India > > and to > > each other? > > > > My answer is that, to put it simply, without the land we call India, > > Indians either have no identity, or very anaemic identities. All > > Indians share this same curious relation to India. > > When we are born to the same human mother, we are brothers. Our > > constitution formed by our freedom-generation explicitly asserts > > fraternity among the Indian people. Fraternity – brotherhood. In what > > sense are we brothers? > > > > Indians are brothers in the sense that the motherland that birthed my > > identity, also birthed yours. India is our ancestral land, and we > > should be proud of everything associated with it. Everything in India, > > its religions, its good and its bad, its languages, its glories and > > struggles, its rivers, its emperors, its heroes and villains, > > everything – is intricately weaved into our consciousnesses of who we > > are, where we come from, what our place in this world is, and how > > other humans see us. Without that identity, we are crippled. > > > > Ours is no ordinary brotherhood. Indian people didn't come into being > > merely a few centuries ago. We are an ancient civilisation, and what > > we have is a civlisational brotherhood – a bond arising from all of > > our belonging to the civilisation that unfolded in the same land, > > India. That brotherhood was formally declared through the constitution > > in 1949, but it existed much before that. Before our greatest > > generation gave it a concrete wording in the 20th century, it was well > > moulded in the crucible that is our land, in the fire of the previous > > several dozen, if not more, centuries. > > > > Every country of the world has stories that define their national > > essences. What is the most essential feature of Indian > > nationalism? It > > is our Indian identity – our being tied to India, and our > > civilisational brotherhood to each other in being bonded so. All > > Indians, regardless of their religion or language, has this bond with > > India and with each other. > > Indians must pause for a while and think why our anthem's going over > > our landmarks is so emotive. Or why Hindu-Muslim-Sikh-Christian > > insignia are powerful. Or why merely thinking of our history, or our > > Kerala, Karnataka, Maharashtra, UP, Punjab and Bengal moves all of us > > equally. > > > > It's because they remind us of our organic ties to India, and the > > brotherhood that we have with each other. This natural bond given to > > us by our glorious and at times bloody history is important. If we > > don't uphold this bond with the ferocity that our greatest generation > > did, if we don't use it to protect our common interests, our country > > will remain weak. > > > > Our country's nature > > > > What is the nature of our country? What does it mean for something > > to be Indian? > > For one, if all of us Indians could get together today and declare in > > one voice that India stands for certain values, then that would be an > > authoritative statement. India is what Indians say it is. If, say, the > > people of the then-Indian civilisation – Hindus, Muslims, Christians, > > Buddhists, Sikhs, and Jains – had made such a statement 400 years ago > > and preserved its spirit through centuries, that would have probably > > have been one of the greatest Indian texts. > > > > If you will recall, a very similar event actually did happen in 1949, > > when the founding fathers of the Indian republic adopted, enacted, and > > gave to ourselves - the sovereign people of India - our constitution. > > The preamble reads, > > > > "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India > > into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure > > to all its citizens: > > JUSTICE, social, economic and political; > > LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; > > EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among them all > > FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and > > integrity of the Nation. > > IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, > > do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION." > > > > In an absolute sense, the values of justice, liberty, and equality > > have an intuitive appeal to all humans everywhere. However, the > > formidable authority of our constitution comes from the crushed but > > proud people who paid a very high price for our right to live as > > equals and as dignified humans in India. We must take their word for > > what India is – they must have known and dreamt quite a bit about it. > > > > India's greatest generation definitely realised that divisivism, > > self-doubt, and other demons from our past would haunt the republic > > they formed. Which is why the constitution is important. It helps us > > protect our country from ourselves. > > > > The Constitution. Indian Nationalism. How we will defend India. > > > > Those who doubt the moral power of our freedom-generation, our > > constitutional ethos, and Indian nationalism need only look at > > Pakistan, which renounced all these in its attempts not to be seen as > > Indian. Pakistan's leaders, in trying to defend their divisve national > > philosophy, forced the most horrible bankruptcy on its people. > > > > Rather than using Indian nationalism and the constitution to tackle > > our communal issues, I am appalled at the general trend to merely > > lament that India is on its way to being declared an non-secular state > > - the hundreds of millions of Indians fully intent on preventing this > > notwithstanding. > > > > Pakistan-style Islamism, Ummah-isation of Hinduism, alienation of > > Indian Muslims > > > > There are three major trends in India today that are relevant to > > our topic. > > > > Firstly, India has very serious conflicts of interest with Pakistan. > > We have gone to war with that country several times. Its society has > > issues with radicalisation and a general religious orthodoxy. Its > > regimes have relentlessly attacked India's internal fault-lines over > > the past few decades in the name of Islam. Tens of thousands of Indian > > soldiers have died defending our country against them. It is > > distinctly un-Indian and anti-Indian. > > > > Secondly, Hinduism is, for the lack of a better word, Ummah-ising, and > > this at times takes horrifyingly militant forms. I, given my personal > > biases, am all for Hindu solidarity and abolishing pseudo-secularism. > > However, an argument for Hindu-solidarity should not be allowed to > > take the form of an un-Indian religionalism that goes against the very > > spirit of India. > > > > Thirdly, Indian Muslims feel alienated from their own country. In > > India, Pakistan is synonymous with Islam. Unfortunately, Islam is also > > weakly synonymous with Pakistan. This has significantly undermined > > Indian Muslims' political standing in India vis-a-vis their fellow > > citizens. > > > > The havoc all this has wreaked on our society must not be ignored. > > India was home to one of humanity's greatest Islamic cultures for well > > over 1000 years. It is not, by any means, a dead part of our > > culture - > > nearly 160 million Indians are Muslims, several national icons are > > Muslims, mosques and Islamic architecture litter the country, and > > Muslim holidays are shared by all. And yet, to a lot of Indians, Islam > > doesn't feel Indian, but Pakistani. Despite their respective religious > > majorities, it is odd that Buddhism doesn't feel Sri Lankan, or > > Hinduism itself, Nepali. > > > > The partition of India and secular India's deprivation of its Islamic > > authenticity > > > > Has anyone thought what has actually happened here? Why is it that in > > India, an ancient civilisational land which has a unique Islamic > > culture just like Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, Islam is seen as somehow > > foreign? That is not because of Islam's being inconsistent with India > > – 1000 years and more of history and our combined freedom struggle > > should have proven this by now. > > > > During partition, founders of Pakistan expropriated the subcontinent's > > Islamic identity for defining their nation, Pakistan. Pakistan's > > struggle to keep its ideology alive has robbed us of our Islamic > > authenticity. India's secular nature not-withstanding, the ardour with > > which Pakistan argued itsideology and pushed its exclusivist national > > philosophy within the larger Islamic community ensured that it gained > > some traction in the Indian society. Pakistan's military conflicts > > with "Hindu" India only amplified this. > > > > It only takes a few of decades of intense activity for a new Zeitgeist > > to take root in a society. Consider denazification of Germany, China's > > turn into capitalism, and India's own economic liberalisation. 30 > > years – that is all it takes for a young generation to grow up shaped > > by a pervasive ideology. > > > > Though quite smaller than India, Pakistan is by no means a tiny > > nation. It is the world's 6th most populous country, one of its major > > economies, and a prominent player during the cold war. One cannot find > > fault with it - Pakistan had to defend its national philosophy. It has > > expended a tremendous amount of national effort over the last 60 years > > in achieving a strong association between subcontinental Islam and > > itself. > > > > They have succeeded splendidly. Islam in the subcontinent today is > > seen as prominently Pakistani and India's secular fabric warped by > > that perception. Pakistan is an Islamic nation - this somehow gives > > them a stronger claim on everything Islamic in the subcontinent. The > > world simply does not recognise India's Islamic authenticity, and > > neither do many Indians within. India continues to be associated > > primarily with Hinduism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, but not Islam. > > > > Does religious brotherhood entirely negate the organic bonds a human > > has to his ancestral land and its history, and to his fellow humans > > who share the same bonds as him? I don't really know. What I do know > > is that this is not the principle on which the Indian republic was > > founded, and its definitely not an Indian value. Religious supremacism > > and breaking up of Indian people are un-Indian philosophies. It goes > > against the very spirit of our freedom struggle, nationalism, and our > > constitution. > > > > Indians must remember that new Pakistani generations do not even have > > the same right to speak for India's Muslims that their earlier > > generations might have had. Indian democracy has proven this > > unnecessary anyway. > > > > Indo-Pak culture-drift and attempts at an unnatural bonhomie > > > > There is a delusion among the political class and Indian people that > > our shared past can be used to achieve friendly relations between > > India and Pakistan. My view is that in doing so, we are only > > reinforcing the internal Islam-Pakistan hyphenation. > > > > When historical developments asunder a people, over a period of time > > the newly formed groups drift increasingly farther from one another. > > Once upon time, Myanmar and Sri Lanka were part of India, just like > > Pakistan and Bangladesh. Afghanistan was part of several Indian > > empires. Today, though at a national level we have very cordial > > relations, they are distinctly unfamiliar to us. > > > > Such a natural drift has definitely taken place between India and > > Pakistan. The strongest bond between us that keeps us in each others' > > national memories is not anything positive that we share, but the > > acrid legacy of partition. It's hard for me as an Indian, for > > instance, to imagine such an Islamism taking hold of Pakistan if it > > were under Akbar's rule. That is, if it were under genuinely > > Indian-style Islamic rule. > > > > I am not suggesting we should actively pursue enmity with Pakistan or > > vilify it. However, its being clumped together with Indian Muslims is > > simply not healthy for India. What has Pakistan's 'leadership' of > > subcontinental Muslims, its advocacy of religious supremacism within, > > and its enmity with India effectively accomplished? It has robbed > > India of its genuine Islamic authenticity in the world's eyes, and > > caused non-Muslim Indians to reject the culture of an un-Indian enemy. > > Pakistan has highlighted Indian Muslims' being Islamic and > =3E consistently de-emphasized their being Indian. > > > > Pursuing an unnatural bonhomie with Pakistan and stressing our > > similarities with them will only weaken our case for our differences, > > which are very real. To uphold our national interest, we must assert > > and amplify these differences. > > > > Replace Islam-Pakistan hyphenation with Islam-India hyphenation in the > > subcontinent > > > > I urge Indians to spearhead a change of perception of Islam in the > > subcontinent. Anything that prevents Indian Muslims' fully asserting > > their claim on India as Indian citizens is against the national > > interest. The strong association in India between subcontinental Islam > > and the present day un-Indian Pakistan must go. > > > > It is tempting to claim that all South Asian countries share Islamic > > civilization equally. It may be polite and civil to do so, and it may > > even have some historical merit, but it's a weak claim for our > > purposes. It doesn't have the necessary boldness and self-conviction > > to be effective. It also doesn't forcefully argue for India's Islamic > > authenticity. Our aim is to end Islam-Pakistan hyphenation for the > > welfare of a billion humans, not to be fair observers of history. We > > must hence push the strongest nationalistic claim possible: Islam in > > the subcontinent is Indian, and it always has been. > > > > Indian Islam never 'went' anywhere – it is alive and well amidst us. > > Our nationalism and constitution are guarantees that it will > > thrive if > > Pakistan would let go of it. When the world thinks of Hinduism in > > South Asia, it thinks of India. Sikhism, it thinks of India. Buddhism, > > India. When it thinks of Islam in South Asia, it must think of India. > > Everyone in the subcontinent will be better off. Everyone. > > > > The idea that Islam in the subcontinent is primarily Indian can gain > > currency only through a concerted nationalist campaign. No apologies > > should be made for such a movement. No one need be convinced of its > > proponents' "patriotism". The obvious worthiness of the cause, its > > truth, and its urgency are justifications enough. > > > > What ideas might such a campaign seek to make current? > > > > The countries in our region share an intertwined, messy history. We > > have a lot in common - languages, religions, culture, quirks - all > > part of our common and colourful heritage. > > > > However, if our historical and religious assets must be divided > > amongst us, then the worthiest inheritor of Islamic heritage in the > > subcontinent can only be India. Not Pakistan, not Bangladesh, not Sri > > Lanka, not Myanmar, not Nepal. India is the only nation that has been > > true to the historical spirit of Indian Islam – that of flourishing > > alongside other Indic faiths in India. > > > > Slay our demons ourselves > > > > Has it ever struck you that in our country, we have a vicious > > circularity of the following sort: we feel dismayed that the > > country/political class/leadership has done nothing for us; a form of > > apathy and resignation sets in; the country/political class/leadership > > continues to do nothing; we feel increasingly more dismayed. > > > > We are a democracy. We individually must act. Things won't happen > > if we don't. > > I urge Indians to assert India's secularism and nationalism to fight > > alienation of the Muslim community from Indian mainstream. This battle > > is the easier one to win – there are hundreds of millions of > > reasonable Indians, the Indian constitution, the liberal press, the > > legacy of our freedom-generation, and truth and justice on our side. > > > > I also urge Indians to fight Pakistani supremacy of subcontinental > > Islam from the outside. That is the root of all our problems. That is > > the key battle in India's war against communalism. We must learn to > > say, "Thanks, but no thanks. I understand what you mean, but this is > > not really true" to anyone who stresses commonalities of any sort in > > the subcontinent. > > > > Who will go first? > > > > Based on the concept of ownership of our destiny, what are the answers > > to these questions: > > > > "But how can non-Muslims claim that Islam in the subcontinent is > > Indian when it is represented by Pakistan and Indian Muslims > > themselves imply so?" > > > > "How can Indian Muslims make the Indo-centric claim when there is a > > genuine sense of their alienation in India and rest of Indian society > > accuses them of siding with Pakistan. We cannot move against Pakstani > > Muslims. There is a lot in common between us." > > > > I don't know! I am definitely going, in my own way. That I know. I > > will not ever treat any Indian by as automatically allied with a > > foreign, inimical power. I will continue making people aware of the > > need to end the subcontinental Islam-Pakistan association and replace > > it with Islam-India. > > > > We shall NOT vilify. We shall have faith. > > > > Indians should stop vilifying each other. Not because it would be > > saintly to do so, but because it only weakens our unity. > > > > Our nationalism and our constitution are solid stuff. Our greatest > > generation did their job well. If we must challenge our fellow > > Indians, invoke these instruments. Face with stead-fast stoicism any > > slurs, any accusations of you being an anti-Indian Muslim or a > > communal Hindutvawadi. Let the diatribe die down. Repeat your > > arguments invoking our nationalism, constitution, and your reasoning > > again. Do not ask anyone to 'prove' his or her patriotism. It's > > demeaning to do so. > > > > Satyameva Jayate – truth alone triumphs. If you are right, you will > > win. Have faith in our country and in every Indians' goodness and > > genuine attachment to their land. > > > > Augmenting India's ideological basis > > > > Earlier I mentioned that our work on Indian nationhood is not a frozen > > process, but a continuing one. We can and must correct any earlier > > mistakes that continue to torment India's communal harmony. > > > > If the greatest challenge the freedom-generation faced was ending the > > British rule and forming a stable republic, the greatest challenge > > before us is to take back leadership of subcontinental Islam from > > Pakistan. Our challenge is to do this without sacrificing India's > > secular nature. > > > > To tackle our new communal challenges in the 21st century, I propose > > the following: > > 1. Secularism will continue to remain the Indian union's lynch > > pin. It > > should not, however, require any particular religious group's giving > > up their right to assert religious solidarity. We should genuinely > > address any concerns about hypocrisy in the name of secularism. > > > > 2. India is a mature concept, and we should actively use it to tackle > > the challenges before us. Secularism is an integral part of our > > nationhood and a historically irreversible development. It follows > > that religionalism – wherever it is practised – is distinctly > > un-Indian. Within India, it is also anti-Indian in the sense that they > > weaken India and goes against its spirit. > > > > 3. The natural heir to Islamic civilisation in the subcontinent is > > India. Subcontinental Islam has always been an Indian phenomenon. > > Pakistan's oft-reinforced association with Indian Muslims must be > > destroyed. > > > > 4. India's brotherhood with its neighbours is dying. Soon there will > > be an Indian generation which doesn't have a single Indian born before > > partition. Every single human in the subcontinent would have been born > > in the countries as they existed after partition. The continuing > > attempts to maintain an unnatural bonhomie with India's hostile > > neighbours is not a tenable project - Pakistan has moved too far away > > from what was once India. > > > > Indian Muslims. India's Islam. > > > > A shockingly large amount of our national energy is wasted in > > countering the effects of Islam-Pakistan hyphenation in the > > subcontinent. > > > > The solution is simple. Reclaim the part of Indian identity that was > > robbed of us some 60 years back. If India is Hindu, then for similar > > reasons, it is also Buddhist, Sikh, Christian - and Islamic. Purported > > authority over sub-continental Islam by other entities in the > > subcontinent is an outrageous farce that must be ended right away. > > > > There is no obligation to do this meekly. India doesn't have > > merely a > > substantial claim or merely an equal claim. It simply has more right > > to subcontinental Islamic heritage than anyone else by an > > overwhelmingly large margin, period. We must use it for our national > > well-being. > > > > Who can assert subcontinental Islam's Indian nature boldly, loudly, > > without an iota of self-doubt or hesitation? Who needs this to be done > > most urgently? Who suffers from a deprivation of their right to belong > > to India the most? The Hindus? Sikhs? Buddhists? Christians? Jains? > > Clearly not. Who else? > > > > The Indian Muslims. The others are left distinctly poorer and their > > country's communal harmony stressed, but their Indian genuineness is > > unquestioned within India and the world over. There is not going > > to be > > an un-Indian leader-nation for India's Sikhs, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists > > and Christians in our neighbourhood any time soon. > > > > http://indianmuslims.in/indias-islam/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping_________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=220 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _________________________________________________________________ Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 22:43:38 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:43:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70801180954k43eb2f8cq336c0b3f09411894@mail.gmail.com> <4fcaee300801190048j5a06421q906f83e80e6ceb13@mail.gmail.com> <4fcaee300801190143o5b18ac5cu5d5438d560bb3960@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801200913x903ef4di81828ac3da0817d6@mail.gmail.com> Dear Mr Asit , I just wanted to clarify that the word Kashmiriat was used very cleaverly by Kashmiri Muslim leaders to hide the atrocities on Kashmiri Hindus. It is a historical fact that Kashmir has been intolerant towards hindus since last almost 1000 years and there have been more than 8 major exodus of Kashmiri pandits . Regards Pawan Durani On 1/20/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > lets not communalise the kashmir scene with talking about pandits and > muslims what is imporatnt is kasmiriyat ant the national liberation of > kashmir it is a occcupied territory of both pakistan and india we make a > big > scene about pandits what about thousands of kasmiri youth killed by the > indian army the tortures the rapes and the natinal indignination of kasmir > its not a question of hindus or muslims but the colonisation of kasmir by > india and pakistan > > asit > > > On 1/20/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > > > Same is the case when Theesta and the likes with "secular" media claim > > "thousands of " muslims bucthered in Gujarath, but who bothers about > truth > > when one can get saudi riyals to defend the traitors of the nation with > > highly paid "criminal" lawyers. ? > > In riot both hindus and muslims loose their beloved, many lives are > lost, > > but this has origin in creating the Pakistan and then not encouraging > the > > indian muslims to go the land and nation they created for faith, after > > promising to live in India like brothers to their society. ? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Wali Arifi > > Date: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:58 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > To: reader-list > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many > > > lessons. One > > > being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate figures when > > > it comes to > > > human loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the loss. In > > > fact accuracy > > > adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. In essence > > > multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to take refuge in > > > propagandaand cloth the truth with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mr Durrani in his post has said: "….for killing of more than 3000 > > > Kashmiripandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this > > > community." > > > > > > > > > I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What is Mr Durrani > > > trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of killings? > > > Is he > > > helping the community by exaggerating the figure? > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri > > > pandits were > > > killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. > > > > > > > > > > > > It has to be understood that multiplying figures is dangerously > > > counterproductive for those who call themselves as the champions and > > > custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget about the > > > use of > > > words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing and so on... > > > > > > > > > > > > Kashmir's history will be written by those who have dreamed of a 'just > > > Kashmir'. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or trying > > > to create > > > it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into what it has > > > actuallybeen in all practice... **Majoritarianism. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Wali > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Sun Jan 20 23:02:10 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:02:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Meet the "Non-resident pujaris" Message-ID: <9c06aab30801200932u49ee073ftca28f8a38418d622@mail.gmail.com> Probe into sale of J&K Pandits' shrine riches 20 Jan 2008, 0129 hrs IST,TNN http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Probe_into_sale_of_JK_Pandits_shrine_riches/articleshow/2714596.cms SRINAGAR: J&K government has ordered an inquiry into the alleged sale of property belonging to shrines of Kashmiri Pandits by non-resident pujaris. The government ordered the probe after the lone Kashmiri Pandit MLA, Raman Mattoo, raised the issue in the assembly on Friday. Custodians and pujaris of shrines mainly from Orissa and Bihar took over the unattended temples/property in the Valley after the exodus of Pandits in late 1980s. At many places such property was allegedly sold and leased out to land mafia. The caretakers have allegedly stolen valuables and expensive idols belonging to shrines/temples. "As of now, the managing committees were free to sell the temple properties. But the government would now introduce an ordinance, barring the selling of such properties," divisional commissioner, Kashmir, Mehboob Iqbal, said. From art at b.astral.ro Sun Jan 20 23:17:10 2008 From: art at b.astral.ro (PAVILION [contemporary art & culture magazine]) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:47:10 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list@sarai.net Message-ID: <4555935D-AE85-4C3C-85D6-4BE87E148AF4@b.astral.ro> BUCHAREST BIENNALE Press Release (Bucharest, January 2008) Bucharest Biennale 3 will publicly announce the artists and the venues. On Tuesday, the 29th of January 2008, 10.30 a.m., at the Geology Museum – one of the main locations of the BB3 (Kiseleff Boulevard, nr. 2) – there will be a press conference held by Jan-Erik Lundstrom and Johan Sjostrom, the Swedish curators of the Biennial. The press conference will have Adrian Matei as a guest, one of the artists selected for BB3 and Oana Ailenei, premium brands manager, representative for Pilsner Urquell, the main sponsor. Bucharest Biennale 3 will take place between 23 May - 21 June 2008, includes 44 projects in the main structure (accomplished by 38 artists and theoreticians from 21 countries), 17 linked and parallel events, conferences held in 7 locations. The Biennale’s theme is “Being here. The topography of Contemporaneity ” drawing attention on the geographical side of contemporary creativity and current representational practices. At the end of the press conference the participants will be invited to an informational breakfast by the co-directors of the BB3, Razvan Ion and Eugen Radescu. Bucharest Biennale is proudly sponsored by Pilsner Urquell and produced by Pavilion, contemporary art & culture magazine. --------------------------------------- www.bucharestbiennale.org www.pavilionmagazine.org www.pilsnerurquell.com --------------------------------------- Office ph./fax: +4 031 103 4131 E-mail: bb3 at pavilionmagazine.org Address: PO Box 26-0390 Bucharest 014800 Romania IChat, Ym, Skype, Google Talk: bucharestbiennale From tulunadu at hotmail.com Sun Jan 20 23:55:35 2008 From: tulunadu at hotmail.com (Krishna Chaithanya) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:55:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70801200913x903ef4di81828ac3da0817d6@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70801180954k43eb2f8cq336c0b3f09411894@mail.gmail.com> <4fcaee300801190048j5a06421q906f83e80e6ceb13@mail.gmail.com> <4fcaee300801190143o5b18ac5cu5d5438d560bb3960@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70801200913x903ef4di81828ac3da0817d6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: "It is a historical fact that Kashmir has been intolerant towards hindus since last almost 1000 years and there have been more than 8 major exodus ofKashmiri pandits ". Does that mean that Kashmir was never a Hindu Country...!? What are you saying Pawan? KC > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:43:38 +0530 > From: pawan.durani at gmail.com > To: asitredsalute at gmail.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > Dear Mr Asit , > > I just wanted to clarify that the word Kashmiriat was used very cleaverly by > Kashmiri Muslim leaders to hide the atrocities on Kashmiri Hindus. > > It is a historical fact that Kashmir has been intolerant towards hindus > since last almost 1000 years and there have been more than 8 major exodus of > Kashmiri pandits . > > Regards > > Pawan Durani > > > On 1/20/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > > > lets not communalise the kashmir scene with talking about pandits and > > muslims what is imporatnt is kasmiriyat ant the national liberation of > > kashmir it is a occcupied territory of both pakistan and india we make a > > big > > scene about pandits what about thousands of kasmiri youth killed by the > > indian army the tortures the rapes and the natinal indignination of kasmir > > its not a question of hindus or muslims but the colonisation of kasmir by > > india and pakistan > > > > asit > > > > > > On 1/20/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > > > > > Same is the case when Theesta and the likes with "secular" media claim > > > "thousands of " muslims bucthered in Gujarath, but who bothers about > > truth > > > when one can get saudi riyals to defend the traitors of the nation with > > > highly paid "criminal" lawyers. ? > > > In riot both hindus and muslims loose their beloved, many lives are > > lost, > > > but this has origin in creating the Pakistan and then not encouraging > > the > > > indian muslims to go the land and nation they created for faith, after > > > promising to live in India like brothers to their society. ? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Wali Arifi > > > Date: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:58 pm > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > To: reader-list > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many > > > > lessons. One > > > > being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate figures when > > > > it comes to > > > > human loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the loss. In > > > > fact accuracy > > > > adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. In essence > > > > multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to take refuge in > > > > propagandaand cloth the truth with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mr Durrani in his post has said: "….for killing of more than 3000 > > > > Kashmiripandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this > > > > community." > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What is Mr Durrani > > > > trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of killings? > > > > Is he > > > > helping the community by exaggerating the figure? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri > > > > pandits were > > > > killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has to be understood that multiplying figures is dangerously > > > > counterproductive for those who call themselves as the champions and > > > > custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget about the > > > > use of > > > > words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing and so on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kashmir's history will be written by those who have dreamed of a 'just > > > > Kashmir'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or trying > > > > to create > > > > it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into what it has > > > > actuallybeen in all practice... **Majoritarianism. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Wali > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > list > > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 00:02:06 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 00:02:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70801180954k43eb2f8cq336c0b3f09411894@mail.gmail.com> <4fcaee300801190048j5a06421q906f83e80e6ceb13@mail.gmail.com> <4fcaee300801190143o5b18ac5cu5d5438d560bb3960@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70801200913x903ef4di81828ac3da0817d6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801201032x31ae3f4je6645181f5e66c44@mail.gmail.com> Dear Krishna , If the mojority is peace loving , the militants can still rule them . Wasn't "Bharat" a hindu country even when few hundred Afghan muslims came and ruled them ? Did that make Bharat a non muslim during that time. Please check the history of Kashmir , though it is unfortunate that you have missed that so far. God Bless all .....people who know and even those who dont Pawan On 1/20/08, Krishna Chaithanya wrote: > > "It is a historical fact that Kashmir has been intolerant towards hindus > since last almost 1000 years and there have been more than 8 major exodus > of > Kashmiri pandits ". > > Does that mean that Kashmir was never a Hindu Country...!? What are you > saying Pawan? > > KC > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:43:38 +0530 > > From: pawan.durani at gmail.com > > To: asitredsalute at gmail.com > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > > Dear Mr Asit , > > > > I just wanted to clarify that the word Kashmiriat was used very > cleaverly by > > Kashmiri Muslim leaders to hide the atrocities on Kashmiri Hindus. > > > > It is a historical fact that Kashmir has been intolerant towards hindus > > since last almost 1000 years and there have been more than 8 major > exodus of > > Kashmiri pandits . > > > > Regards > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > On 1/20/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > > > > > lets not communalise the kashmir scene with talking about pandits and > > > muslims what is imporatnt is kasmiriyat ant the national liberation of > > > kashmir it is a occcupied territory of both pakistan and india we make > a > > > big > > > scene about pandits what about thousands of kasmiri youth killed by > the > > > indian army the tortures the rapes and the natinal indignination of > kasmir > > > its not a question of hindus or muslims but the colonisation of kasmir > by > > > india and pakistan > > > > > > asit > > > > > > > > > On 1/20/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > > > > > > > Same is the case when Theesta and the likes with "secular" media > claim > > > > "thousands of " muslims bucthered in Gujarath, but who bothers about > > > truth > > > > when one can get saudi riyals to defend the traitors of the nation > with > > > > highly paid "criminal" lawyers. ? > > > > In riot both hindus and muslims loose their beloved, many lives are > > > lost, > > > > but this has origin in creating the Pakistan and then not > encouraging > > > the > > > > indian muslims to go the land and nation they created for faith, > after > > > > promising to live in India like brothers to their society. ? > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Wali Arifi > > > > Date: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:58 pm > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > > To: reader-list > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many > > > > > lessons. One > > > > > being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate figures when > > > > > it comes to > > > > > human loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the loss. In > > > > > fact accuracy > > > > > adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. In > essence > > > > > multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to take refuge in > > > > > propagandaand cloth the truth with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mr Durrani in his post has said: "….for killing of more than 3000 > > > > > Kashmiripandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this > > > > > community." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What is Mr > Durrani > > > > > trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of killings? > > > > > Is he > > > > > helping the community by exaggerating the figure? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri > > > > > pandits were > > > > > killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has to be understood that multiplying figures is dangerously > > > > > counterproductive for those who call themselves as the champions > and > > > > > custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget about the > > > > > use of > > > > > words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing and so > on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kashmir's history will be written by those who have dreamed of a > 'just > > > > > Kashmir'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or trying > > > > > to create > > > > > it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into what it has > > > > > actuallybeen in all practice... **Majoritarianism. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Wali > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > > list > > > > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > ------------------------------ > It's about getting married. Click here! Try it! > From tulunadu at hotmail.com Mon Jan 21 00:15:45 2008 From: tulunadu at hotmail.com (Krishna Chaithanya) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 00:15:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70801201032x31ae3f4je6645181f5e66c44@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70801180954k43eb2f8cq336c0b3f09411894@mail.gmail.com> <4fcaee300801190048j5a06421q906f83e80e6ceb13@mail.gmail.com> <4fcaee300801190143o5b18ac5cu5d5438d560bb3960@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70801200913x903ef4di81828ac3da0817d6@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70801201032x31ae3f4je6645181f5e66c44@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Then it was not Kashmir which has been intolerant towards Hindus. It was the Rulers of Kashmiri(Where they Kashmiris?) So who was intolerant was it the Rulers? or the Kashmiris? (but then how can you seperate the Pundits from Kashmiris?) You are either confusing me or you are confused. KC Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 00:02:06 +0530 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com To: tulunadu at hotmail.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? CC: asitredsalute at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net Dear Krishna , If the mojority is peace loving , the militants can still rule them . Wasn't "Bharat" a hindu country even when few hundred Afghan muslims came and ruled them ? Did that make Bharat a non muslim during that time. Please check the history of Kashmir , though it is unfortunate that you have missed that so far. God Bless all .....people who know and even those who dont Pawan On 1/20/08, Krishna Chaithanya wrote: "It is a historical fact that Kashmir has been intolerant towards hindus since last almost 1000 years and there have been more than 8 major exodus of Kashmiri pandits ". Does that mean that Kashmir was never a Hindu Country...!? What are you saying Pawan? KC > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:43:38 +0530 > From: pawan.durani at gmail.com > To: asitredsalute at gmail.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > Dear Mr Asit , > > I just wanted to clarify that the word Kashmiriat was used very cleaverly by > Kashmiri Muslim leaders to hide the atrocities on Kashmiri Hindus. > > It is a historical fact that Kashmir has been intolerant towards hindus > since last almost 1000 years and there have been more than 8 major exodus of > Kashmiri pandits . > > Regards > > Pawan Durani > > > On 1/20/08, Asit asitreds < asitredsalute at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > lets not communalise the kashmir scene with talking about pandits and > > muslims what is imporatnt is kasmiriyat ant the national liberation of > > kashmir it is a occcupied territory of both pakistan and india we make a > > big > > scene about pandits what about thousands of kasmiri youth killed by the > > indian army the tortures the rapes and the natinal indignination of kasmir > > its not a question of hindus or muslims but the colonisation of kasmir by > > india and pakistan > > > > asit > > > > > > On 1/20/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > > > > > Same is the case when Theesta and the likes with "secular" media claim > > > "thousands of " muslims bucthered in Gujarath, but who bothers about > > truth > > > when one can get saudi riyals to defend the traitors of the nation with > > > highly paid "criminal" lawyers. ? > > > In riot both hindus and muslims loose their beloved, many lives are > > lost, > > > but this has origin in creating the Pakistan and then not encouraging > > the > > > indian muslims to go the land and nation they created for faith, after > > > promising to live in India like brothers to their society. ? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Wali Arifi < waliarifi3 at gmail.com> > > > Date: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:58 pm > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > To: reader-list < reader-list at sarai.net> > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many > > > > lessons. One > > > > being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate figures when > > > > it comes to > > > > human loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the loss. In > > > > fact accuracy > > > > adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. In essence > > > > multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to take refuge in > > > > propagandaand cloth the truth with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mr Durrani in his post has said: "….for killing of more than 3000 > > > > Kashmiripandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this > > > > community." > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What is Mr Durrani > > > > trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of killings? > > > > Is he > > > > helping the community by exaggerating the figure? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri > > > > pandits were > > > > killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has to be understood that multiplying figures is dangerously > > > > counterproductive for those who call themselves as the champions and > > > > custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget about the > > > > use of > > > > words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing and so on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kashmir's history will be written by those who have dreamed of a 'just > > > > Kashmir'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or trying > > > > to create > > > > it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into what it has > > > > actuallybeen in all practice... **Majoritarianism. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Wali > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > list > > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> It's about getting married. Click here! Try it! _________________________________________________________________ Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186 From javedmasoo at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 00:19:07 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 00:19:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] what non-Muslims say about Quran, Islam In-Reply-To: <416896.64213.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <416896.64213.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Chanchal ji I would love to take up this challenge - I don't mind having a debate with you. But there are a few very basic things first. (1) I am not attacking Bhagwat Gita, I have no problem with it, I haven't read it, I don't own a copy right now, so I can't argue for or against it any way, nor do I want to condemn it in any way. As a matter of fact, I respect it, just as I respect all other books of wisdom. Quite simply, I have nothing to say against Bhagwat Gita or any other Holy book. So you have already won on that account. (2) How can I trust you in a discussion when you keep rejecting my facts by saying "Gandhi never read Quran", and "forget what people say" - how can we forget/ignore things which have been said before about Quran. Are you saying that all those philosophers (which I quoted) have not read what you have read? Or are you claiming to know more about Islam than what all those people have known? Although many of them are Christians but that doesn't mean that they would be more sympathatic to Islam. The hostilities between Muslims and Christians have been equally terrible. (3) I would like to know exactly which translation of the Quran are you quoting from. Just like you do not approve my references, I may have a problems with your sources. So, let us start with that. Please let me know which translation of the Quran are you reading. (4) Please remember, the most important point which I will keep referring to is: The Quran, or any other historical/holy book for that matter, was written/compiled at a certain stage in history, at a certain geographical location, for a certain cultural context. We have to read/interprete each word of that book in the context of those times and that location. If we start applying anything from that text to the current situation and intepret today's reality from the point of view of that old text, we are going to run into trouble - our interpretations and evaluations will always be problematic. And I can already foresee our running into that quagmire. Some Muslims may say that Quran applies to all times and all humans equally, but a sociologist/historian may see Quran to be a historical document (my apologies if I'm hurting anyone's sentiments). And I would like to treat it (at least in this discussion) at a historical document. (5) I am not in a mood to fight - the way you are writing so aggressively. I would love to participate in a discussion if we tone down a bit. If you think that my above points make sense, then let us go ahead. I am ready for the discussion. I am really looking forward to a scholarly, mature, non-partisan, and parliamentary discussion with you, in good spirits. Javed On 1/20/08, chanchal malviya wrote: > > Mahatma Gandhi never read Quran.. He only read Bhagwad Geeta.. and hence > what he said was his perception about Quran as a religion... > And forget about what people said... > > Have courage to discuss it personally... > I will have Bhagwad Geeta (the most accepted book of Hindus)... and you > quote from that book.. > I will also have Quran (the one translated by your writers)... and I quote > from that book... > > Every page of Quran teaches hatred... and many page teaches killings.... > > I invite you for an open discussion... here on this forum... two books > (Don't divert to other books of Hindus, by quoting Dr. Naiks findings, that > has already been taken care of and I can provide link where it has been > answered)... Let us focus just two books... one yours and one mine... > > I invite... things would be clear.. > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Javed > To: chanchal malviya > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:43:46 PM > Subject: what non-Muslims say about Quran, Islam > > Dear Chanchal ji > If you have read Quran and found only war and terror in it, why do so > many non-Muslim scholars and philosophers (including Mahatma Gandhi > and K. S. Ramakrishna Rao) have said so many great things about it. > Please read these quotes carefully. Some of these people are actually > saying just the reverse of what you claim. > > ===== > > Thomas Carlyle in 'Heroes and Hero Worship and the Heroic in History,' 1840: > > "The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round > this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only." "A silent > great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle > the world, the world's Maker had ordered so." > > > A. S. Tritton in 'Islam,' 1951: > > The picture of the Muslim soldier advancing with a sword in one hand > and the Qur'an in the other is quite false. > > > De Lacy O'Leary in 'Islam at the Crossroads,' London, 1923: > > History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims > sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of sword > upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths > that historians have ever repeated. > > > Gibbon in 'The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' 1823: > > The good sense of Muhammad despised the pomp of royalty. The Apostle > of God submitted to the menial offices of the family; he kindled the > fire; swept the floor; milked the ewes; and mended with his own hands > his shoes and garments. Disdaining the penance and merit of a hermit, > he observed without effort of vanity the abstemious diet of an Arab. > > > Edward Gibbon and Simon Oakley in 'History of the Saracen Empire,' London, > 1870: > > "The greatest success of Mohammad's life was effected by sheer moral force." > "It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that > deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he > engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved after the revolutions of > twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish proselytes > of the Koran....The Mahometans have uniformly withstood the temptation > of reducing the object of their faith and devotion to a level with the > senses and imagination of man. 'I believe in One God and Mahomet the > Apostle of God' is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The > intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible > idol; the honors of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of > human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of > his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion." > > > Reverend Bosworth Smith in 'Muhammad and Muhammadanism,' London, 1874: > > "Head of the State as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in > one; but he was Pope without the Pope's pretensions, and Caesar > without the legions of Caesar, without a standing army, without a > bodyguard, without a police force, without a fixed revenue. If ever a > man ruled by a right divine, it was Muhammad, for he had all the > powers without their supports. He cared not for the dressings of > power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his > public life." > "In Mohammadanism every thing is different here. Instead of the > shadowy and the mysterious, we have history....We know of the external > history of Muhammad.... while for his internal history after his > mission had been proclaimed, we have a book absolutely unique in its > origin, in its preservation....on the Substantial authority of which > no one has ever been able to cast a serious doubt." > > > Edward Montet, 'La Propagande Chretienne et ses Adversaries > Musulmans,' Paris 1890. (Also in T.W. Arnold in 'The Preaching of > Islam,' London 1913.): > > "Islam is a religion that is essentially rationalistic in the widest > sense of this term considered etymologically and historically....the > teachings of the Prophet, the Qur'an has invariably kept its place as > the fundamental starting point, and the dogma of unity of God has > always been proclaimed therein with a grandeur a majesty, an > invariable purity and with a note of sure conviction, which it is hard > to find surpassed outside the pale of Islam....A creed so precise, so > stripped of all theological complexities and consequently so > accessible to the ordinary understanding might be expected to possess > and does indeed possess a marvelous power of winning its way into the > consciences of men." > > > Alphonse de LaMartaine in 'Historie de la Turquie,' Paris, 1854: > > "Never has a man set for himself, voluntarily or involuntarily, a more > sublime aim, since this aim was superhuman; to subvert superstitions > which had been imposed between man and his Creator, to render God unto > man and man unto God; to restore the rational and sacred idea of > divinity amidst the chaos of the material and disfigured gods of > idolatry, then existing. Never has a man undertaken a work so far > beyond human power with so feeble means, for he (Muhammad) had in the > conception as well as in the execution of such a great design, no > other instrument than himself and no other aid except a handful of men > living in a corner of the desert. Finally, never has a man > accomplished such a huge and lasting revolution in the world, because > in less than two centuries after its appearance, Islam, in faith and > in arms, reigned over the whole of Arabia, and conquered, in God's > name, Persia Khorasan, Transoxania, Western India, Syria, Egypt, > Abyssinia, all the known continent of Northern Africa, numerous > islands of the Mediterranean Sea, Spain, and part of Gaul. "If > greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astonishing results are > the three criteria of a human genius, who could dare compare any great > man in history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws, > and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than > material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man > moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples, dynasties, but > millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more > than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, > the beliefs and the souls. > > "On the basis of a Book, every letter which has become law, he created > a spiritual nationality which blend together peoples of every tongue > and race. He has left the indelible characteristic of this Muslim > nationality the hatred of false gods and the passion for the One and > Immaterial God. This avenging patriotism against the profanation of > Heaven formed the virtue of the followers of Muhammad; the conquest of > one-third the earth to the dogma was his miracle; or rather it was not > the miracle of man but that of reason. > > "The idea of the unity of God, proclaimed amidst the exhaustion of the > fabulous theogonies, was in itself such a miracle that upon it's > utterance from his lips it destroyed all the ancient temples of idols > and set on fire one-third of the world. His life, his meditations, his > heroic revelings against the superstitions of his country, and his > boldness in defying the furies of idolatry, his firmness in enduring > them for fifteen years in Mecca, his acceptance of the role of public > scorn and almost of being a victim of his fellow countrymen... This > dogma was twofold the unity of God and the immateriality of God: the > former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the > one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea > with words. > > "Philosopher, Orator, Apostle, Legislator, Conqueror of Ideas, > Restorer of Rational beliefs.... The founder of twenty terrestrial > empires and of one spiritual empire that is Muhammad. As regards all > standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, > is there any man greater than he?" > > > Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in 'Young India,'1924: > > I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an > undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became > more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place > for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid > simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous > regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, > his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in > his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before > them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume > (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to > read of that great life. > > > Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936: > > "If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe > within the next hundred years, it could be Islam." I have always held > the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful > vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that > assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can > make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful > man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called > the Savior of Humanity." > > "I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of > the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way > that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have > prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to > the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the > Europe of today." > > > Michael Hart in 'The 100, A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons In > History,' New York, 1978: > > My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential > persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but > he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both > the secular and religious level. ...It is probable that the relative > influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined > influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. ...It is this > unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I > feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single > figure in human history. > > > Dr. WilliamDraper in 'History of Intellectual Development of Europe': > > Four years after the death of Justinian, A.D. 569, was born in Mecca, > in Arabia, the man who, of all men, has exercised the greatest > influence upon the human race... To be the religious head of many > empires, to guide the daily life of one-third of the human race, may > perhaps justify the title of a Messenger of God. > > > Arthur Glyn Leonard in 'Islam, Her Moral and Spiritual Values': > > It was the genius of Muhammad, the spirit that he breathed into the > Arabs through the soul of Islam that exalted them. That raised them > out of the lethargy and low level of tribal stagnation up to the high > watermark of national unity and empire. It was in the sublimity of > Muhammad's deism, the simplicity, the sobriety and purity it > inculcated the fidelity of its founder to his own tenets, that acted > on their moral and intellectual fiber with all the magnetism of true > inspiration. > > > Philip K. Hitti in 'History of the Arabs': > > Within a brief span of mortal life, Muhammad called forth of > unpromising material, a nation, never welded before; in a country that > was hitherto but a geographical expression he established a religion > which in vast areas suppressed Christianity and Judaism, and laid the > basis of an empire that was soon to embrace within its far flung > boundaries the fairest provinces the then civilized world. > > > Rodwell in the Preface to his translation of the Holy Qur'an: > > Mohammad's career is a wonderful instance of the force and life that > resides in him who possesses an intense faith in God and in the unseen > world. He will always be regarded as one of those who have had that > influence over the faith, morals and whole earthly life of their > fellow men, which none but a really great man ever did, or can > exercise; and whose efforts to propagate a great verity will prosper. > > > W. Montgomery Watt in 'Muhammad at Mecca,' Oxford, 1953: > > His readiness to undergo persecution for his beliefs, the high moral > character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as a > leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement - all argue his > fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more > problems that it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of > history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.... Thus, not > merely must we credit Muhammad with essential honesty and integrity of > purpose, if we are to understand him at all; if we are to correct the > errors we have inherited from the past, we must not forget the > conclusive proof is a much stricter requirement than a show of > plausibility, and in a matter such as this only to be attained with > difficulty. > > > D. G. Hogarth in 'Arabia': > > Serious or trivial, his daily behavior has instituted a canon which > millions observe this day with conscious memory. No one regarded by > any section of the human race as Perfect Man has ever been imitated so > minutely. The conduct of the founder of Christianity has not governed > the ordinary life of his followers. Moreover, no founder of a religion > has left on so solitary an eminence as the Muslim apostle. > > > Washington Irving 'Mahomet and His Successors': > > He was sober and abstemious in his diet and a rigorous observer of > fasts. He indulged in no magnificence of apparel, the ostentation of a > petty mind; neither was his simplicity in dress affected but a result > of real disregard for distinction from so trivial a source. In his > private dealings he was just. He treated friends and strangers, the > rich and poor, the powerful and weak, with equity, and was beloved by > the common people for the affability with which he received them, and > listened to their complaints. His military triumphs awakened no pride > nor vain glory, as they would have done had they been effected for > selfish purposes. In the time of his greatest power he maintained the > same simplicity of manners and appearance as in the days of his > adversity. So far from affecting a regal state, he was displeased if, > on entering a room, any unusual testimonials of respect were shown to > him. If he aimed at a universal dominion, it was the dominion of > faith; as to the temporal rule which grew up in his hands, as he used > it without ostentation, so he took no step to perpetuate it in his > family. > > > James Michener in 'Islam: The Misunderstood Religion,' Reader's > Digest, May 1955, pp. 68-70: > > "No other religion in history spread so rapidly as Islam. The West has > widely believed that this surge of religion was made possible by the > sword. But no modern scholar accepts this idea, and the Qur'an is > explicit in the support of the freedom of conscience." > "Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of > serving as the transmitter of God's word sensing his own inadequacy. > But the Angel commanded 'Read'. So far as we know, Muhammad was unable > to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which > would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one > God"." > > "In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son > Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred and rumors of God 's personal > condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have > announced, 'An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to > attribute such things to the death or birth of a human being'." > > "At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man > who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria > with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: 'If there are > any among you who worshiped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you > Worshiped, He lives for ever'." > > > Lawrence E. Browne in 'The Prospects of Islam,' 1944: > > Incidentally these well-established facts dispose of the idea so > widely fostered in Christian writings that the Muslims, wherever they > went, forced people to accept Islam at the point of the sword. > > > K. S. Ramakrishna Rao in 'Mohammed: The Prophet of Islam,' 1989 > > My problem to write this monograph is easier, because we are not > generally fed now on that (distorted) kind of history and much time > need not be spent on pointing out our misrepresentations of Islam. The > theory of Islam and sword, for instance, is not heard now in any > quarter worth the name. The principle of Islam that "there is no > compulsion in religion" is well known. > > Napolean Bonaparte as Quoted in Christian Cherfils, 'Bonaparte et > Islam,' Pedone Ed., Paris, France, 1914, pp. 105, 125. > Original References: "Correspondance de Napoléon Ier Tome V pièce n° > 4287 du 17/07/1799..." > > "Moses has revealed the existence of God to his nation. Jesus Christ > to the Roman world, Muhammad to the old continent... "Arabia was > idolatrous when, six centuries after Jesus, Muhammad introduced the > worship of the God of Abraham, of Ishmael, of Moses, and Jesus. The > Ariyans and some other sects had disturbed the tranquility of the east > by agitating the question of the nature of the Father, the son, and > the Holy Ghost. Muhammad declared that there was none but one God who > had no father, no son and that the trinity imported the idea of > idolatry... > > "I hope the time is not far off when I shall be able to unite all the > wise and educated men of all the countries and establish a uniform > regime based on the principles of Qur'an which alone are true and > which alone can lead men to happiness." > > > Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936. > > "If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe > within the next hundred years, it could be Islam." "I have always held > the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful > vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that > assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can > make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the > wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must > be called the Savior of Humanity." > > "I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of > the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way > that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have > prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to > the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the > Europe of today." > > > Bertrand Russel in 'History of Western Philosophy,' London, 1948, p. 419. > > "Our use of phrase 'The Dark ages' to cover the period from 699 to > 1,000 marks our undue concentration on Western Europe... > "From India to Spain, the brilliant civilization of Islam flourished. > What was lost to christendom at this time was not lost to > civilization, but quite the contrary... > > "To us it seems that West-European civilization is civilization, but > this is a narrow view." > > H.G. Wells > > "The Islamic teachings have left great traditions for equitable and > gentle dealings and behavior, and inspire people with nobility and > tolerance. These are human teachings of the highest order and at the > same time practicable. These teachings brought into existence a > society in which hard-heartedness and collective oppression and > injustice were the least as compared with all other societies > preceding it....Islam is replete with gentleness, courtesy, and > fraternity." > > > Dr. William Draper in 'History of Intellectual Development of Europe' > > "During the period of the Caliphs the learned men of the Christians > and the Jews were not only held in great esteem but were appointed to > posts of great responsibility, and were promoted to the high ranking > job in the government....He (Caliph Haroon Rasheed) never considered > to which country a learned person belonged nor his faith and belief, > but only his excellence in the field of learning." > > > Thomas Carlyle in 'Heroes, Hero Worship, and the Heroic in History,' > Lecture 2, Friday, 8th May 1840. > > "As there is no danger of our becoming, any of us, Mahometans (i.e. > Muslim), I mean to say all the good of him I justly can... "When > Pococke inquired of Grotius, where the proof was of that story of the > pigeon, trained to pick peas from Mahomet's (Muhammad's) ear, and pass > for an angel dictating to him? Grotius answered that there was no > proof!... > > "A poor, hard-toiling, ill-provided man; careless of what vulgar men > toil for. Not a bad man, I should say; Something better in him than > hunger of any sort, -- or these wild arab men, fighting and jostling > three-and-twenty years at his hand, in close contact with him always, > would not revered him so! They were wild men bursting ever and anon > into quarrel, into all kinds of fierce sincerity; without right worth > and manhood, no man could have commanded them. They called him prophet > you say? Why he stood there face to face with them; bare, not > enshrined in any mystry; visibly clouting his own cloak, cobbling his > own shoes; fighting, counselling, ordering in the midst of them: they > must have seen what kind of man he was, let him be called what you > like! No emperor with his tiaras was obeyed as this man in a cloak of > his own clouting. During three-and-twenty years of rough actual trial. > I find something of a veritable Hero necessary for that, of itself... > > "These Arabs, the man Mahomet, and that one century, - is it not as if > a spark had fallen, one spark, on a world of what proves explosive > powder, blazes heaven-high from Delhi to Granada! I said, the Great > man was always as lightning out of Heaven; the rest of men waited for > him like fuel, and then they too would flame..." > > > Phillip Hitti in 'Short History of the Arabs.' > > "During all the first part of the Middle Ages, no other people made as > important a contribution to human progress as did the Arabs, if we > take this term to mean all those whose mother-tongue was Arabic, and > not merely those living in the Arabian peninsula. For centuries, > Arabic was the language of learning, culture and intellectual progress > for the whole of the civilized world with the exception of the Far > East. From the IXth to the XIIth century there were more > philosophical, medical, historical, religiuos, astronomical and > geographical works written in Arabic than in any other human tongue." > > > Carra de Vaux in 'The Philosophers of Islam,' Paris, 1921. > > "Finally how can one forget that at the same time the Mogul Empire of > India (1526-1857 C.E.) was giving the world the Taj Mahal (completed > in 1648 C.E.) the architectural beauty of which has never been > surpassed, and the 'Akbar Nameh' of Abul Fazl: "That extraordinary > work full of life ideas and learning where every aspect of life is > examined listed and classified, and where progress continually dazzles > the eye, is a document of which Oriental civilization may justly be > proud. The men whose genius finds its expression in this book were far > in advance of their age in the practical art of government, and they > were perhaps in advance of it in their speculations about religious > philosophy. Those poets those philosophers knew how to deal with the > world or matter. They observe, classify, calculate and experiment. All > the ideas that occur to them are tested against facts. They express > them with eloquence but they also support them with statistics."...the > principles of tolerance, justice and humanity which prevailed during > the long reign of Akbar." > > > Marcel Clerget in 'La Turquie, Passe et Present,' Paris, 1938. > > "Many proofs of high cultural level of the Ottoman Empire during the > reign of Suleiman the Magnificent are to be found in the development > of science and law; in the flowering of literary works in Arabic, > Persian and Turkish; in the contemporary monuments in Istanbul, Bursa, > and Edirne; in the boom in luxury industries; in the sumptuous life of > the court and high dignitaries, and last but not least in its > religious tolerance. All the various influences - notably Turkish, > Byzantine and Italian mingle together and help to make this the most > brilliant epoch of the Ottomans." > > > Michael the Elder (Great) as Quoted in 'Michael the Elder, Chronique > de Michael Syrien, Patriarche Jacobite d' Antioche,' J.B. Chabot, > Editor, Vol. II, Paris, 1901. > > "This is why the God of vengeance, who alone is all-powerful, and > changes the empire of mortals as He will, giving it to whomsoever He > will, and uplifting the humble beholding the wickedness of the Romans > who throughout their dominions, cruelly plundered our churches and our > monasteries and condemned us without pity, brought from the region of > the south the sons of Ishmael, to deliver us through them from the > hands of the Romans. And if in truth we have suffered some loss, > because the Catholic churches, that had been taken away from us and > given to the > Chalcedonians, remained in their possession; for when the cities > submitted to the Arabs, they assigned to each denomination the > churches which they found it to be in possession of (and at that time > the great churches of Emessa and that of Harran had been taken away > from us); nevertheless it was no slight advantage for us to be > delivered from the cruelty of the Romans, their wickedness, their > wrath and cruel zeal against us, and to find ourselves at people. > (Michael the Elder, Jacobite Patriarch of Antioch wrote this text in > the latter part of the twelfth century, after five > centuries of Muslim rule in that region. Click here for a relevant > document sent to the monks of St. Catherine Monastery in Mt. Sinai, > 628 C.E.) > > > Sir John Bagot Glubb > > "Khalif (Caliph) Al-Ma'mun's period of rule (813 - 833 C.E.) may be > considered the 'golden age' of science and learning. He had always > been devoted to books and to learned pursuits. His brilliant mind was > interested in every form of intellectual activity. Not only poetry but > also philosophy, theology, astronomy, medicine and law all occupied > his time." > "By Mamun's time medical schools were extremely active in Baghdad. The > first free public hospital was opened in Baghdad during the Caliphate > of Haroon-ar-Rashid. As the system developed, physicians and surgeons > were appointed who gave lectures to medical students and issued > diplomas to those who were considered qualified to practice. The first > hospital in Egypt was opened in 872 AD and thereafter public hospitals > sprang up all over the empire from Spain and the Maghrib to Persia." > > > On the Holocaust of Baghdad (1258 C.E.) Perpetrated by Hulagu: > "The city was systematically looted, destroyed and burnt. Eight > hundred thousand persons are said to have been killed. The Khalif > Mustasim was sewn up in a sack and trampled to death under the feet of > Mongol horses. > > "For five hundred years, Baghdad had been a city of palaces, mosques, > libraries and colleges. Its universities and hospitals were the most > up-to-date in the world. Nothing now remained but heaps of rubble and > a stench of decaying human flesh." From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 00:23:07 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 00:23:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70801180954k43eb2f8cq336c0b3f09411894@mail.gmail.com> <4fcaee300801190048j5a06421q906f83e80e6ceb13@mail.gmail.com> <4fcaee300801190143o5b18ac5cu5d5438d560bb3960@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70801200913x903ef4di81828ac3da0817d6@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70801201032x31ae3f4je6645181f5e66c44@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801201053i18e27390r7477c3bcfde041f7@mail.gmail.com> Krsna , Unfortunate as it is , you are too confused to even understand the difference between a diaper and a wiper..................leave alone Kashmir for a while It is better that you study Kashmir first by browsing www.ikashmir.net or www.ikashmir.org and then ask me a question. God Bless you with some knowledge .......for a change Pawan Durani On 1/21/08, Krishna Chaithanya wrote: > > Then it was not Kashmir which has been intolerant towards Hindus. It was > the Rulers of Kashmiri(Where they Kashmiris?) So who was intolerant was it > the Rulers? or the Kashmiris? (but then how can you seperate the Pundits > from Kashmiris?) > > You are either confusing me or you are confused. > > KC > > ------------------------------ > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 00:02:06 +0530 > From: pawan.durani at gmail.com > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > CC: asitredsalute at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net > > Dear Krishna , > > If the mojority is peace loving , the militants can still rule them . > Wasn't "Bharat" a hindu country even when few hundred Afghan muslims came > and ruled them ? Did that make Bharat a non muslim during that time. > > Please check the history of Kashmir , though it is unfortunate that you > have missed that so far. > > God Bless all .....people who know and even those who dont > > Pawan > > > > > On 1/20/08, *Krishna Chaithanya* wrote: > > "It is a historical fact that Kashmir has been intolerant towards hindus > since last almost 1000 years and there have been more than 8 major exodus > of > Kashmiri pandits ". > > Does that mean that Kashmir was never a Hindu Country...!? What are you > saying Pawan? > > KC > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:43:38 +0530 > > From: pawan.durani at gmail.com > > To: asitredsalute at gmail.com > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > > Dear Mr Asit , > > > > I just wanted to clarify that the word Kashmiriat was used very > cleaverly by > > Kashmiri Muslim leaders to hide the atrocities on Kashmiri Hindus. > > > > It is a historical fact that Kashmir has been intolerant towards hindus > > since last almost 1000 years and there have been more than 8 major > exodus of > > Kashmiri pandits . > > > > Regards > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > On 1/20/08, Asit asitreds < asitredsalute at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > lets not communalise the kashmir scene with talking about pandits and > > > muslims what is imporatnt is kasmiriyat ant the national liberation of > > > kashmir it is a occcupied territory of both pakistan and india we make > a > > > big > > > scene about pandits what about thousands of kasmiri youth killed by > the > > > indian army the tortures the rapes and the natinal indignination of > kasmir > > > its not a question of hindus or muslims but the colonisation of kasmir > by > > > india and pakistan > > > > > > asit > > > > > > > > > On 1/20/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > > > > > > > Same is the case when Theesta and the likes with "secular" media > claim > > > > "thousands of " muslims bucthered in Gujarath, but who bothers about > > > truth > > > > when one can get saudi riyals to defend the traitors of the nation > with > > > > highly paid "criminal" lawyers. ? > > > > In riot both hindus and muslims loose their beloved, many lives are > > > lost, > > > > but this has origin in creating the Pakistan and then not > encouraging > > > the > > > > indian muslims to go the land and nation they created for faith, > after > > > > promising to live in India like brothers to their society. ? > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Wali Arifi < waliarifi3 at gmail.com> > > > > Date: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:58 pm > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > > To: reader-list < reader-list at sarai.net> > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many > > > > > lessons. One > > > > > being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate figures when > > > > > it comes to > > > > > human loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the loss. In > > > > > fact accuracy > > > > > adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. In > essence > > > > > multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to take refuge in > > > > > propagandaand cloth the truth with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mr Durrani in his post has said: "….for killing of more than 3000 > > > > > Kashmiripandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this > > > > > community." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What is Mr > Durrani > > > > > trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of killings? > > > > > Is he > > > > > helping the community by exaggerating the figure? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri > > > > > pandits were > > > > > killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has to be understood that multiplying figures is dangerously > > > > > counterproductive for those who call themselves as the champions > and > > > > > custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget about the > > > > > use of > > > > > words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing and so > on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kashmir's history will be written by those who have dreamed of a > 'just > > > > > Kashmir'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or trying > > > > > to create > > > > > it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into what it has > > > > > > actuallybeen in all practice... **Majoritarianism. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Wali > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > > list > > > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > ------------------------------ > It's about getting married. Click here! Try it! > > > > ------------------------------ > Post free auto ads on Yello Classifieds now! Try it now! > From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Mon Jan 21 10:52:05 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:22:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Message-ID: <92747.28449.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> You are a selfish person... Realizing Shanti only for you... The mantra is far deep than you can even think... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: reader-list at sarai.net; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:37:06 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. What I know can not be expressed in words. I feel peace within me when I Chant OM SHANTHI SHANTHI SHANTHI. It appears like you you understand what is OM and why there is Three Shanthi. But how come there is no sign of peace! I don't care if any other religion has such slogans in their religious books. It doesn't make any difference to my belief and faith in the Supreme. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:44:33 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com Do you understand also... what is OM and why is there Three Shanti... Do you know any other religion which has such slogans in their religious books... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:28:20 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Om Shanthi Shanti Shanti hi KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:53:35 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net How many bombs you have thrown.. Ask this to them... Not us... We are reacting.. They are acting... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:19:37 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society....!? We bomb them and they bomb us and we bomb them and they bomb us together we bomb us then who is left to bomb...? KC > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:33:09 +0500 > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > Hi, true, it for too long hindus have been tolerent leading to a sarcastic comment that they are cowards, may be Nehru was coward when India was divided for his greed,may be Krishna menon loved chinese vaginas more than indian ones, but now it is time that hindu understood the value of SAMA, Dana, BHEDHA are over, dandam dashagunam bhaveth. Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: chanchal malviya > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:24 am > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > To: Javed , reader-list at sarai.net > > > It is time for Hindus to rise now... > > And no dicussion or virtual communities can stop it... > > > > Swami Vivekanand said - India have enough of religion.. > > And it is time now to say this to Christian and Muslims who force > > conversions the same thing.. > > If Sanskrit is the mother of all languages, Hinduism is the mother > > of all Religions... (But two religions have in particular always > > learnt to abuse their mother(Hinduism) - Islam and Christianity)... > > It is time now to stop the nation from producing more Kashmirs... > > It is time now to stop the non-Independent Religious India... > > > > So go on my dear friends as much as you like to abuse Hindus.. > > It hardly matters now.. > > > > Ramayan is proving to be a reality, Mahabharat is a reality.. > > History will also change.. > > It is Hindus that have taught peace to the world.. but to do that > > again, the two attackers have to be checked now.. > > People are doing that.. And will do that.. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Javed > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 6:00:16 PM > > Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > India's Islam > > by Arun Nair > > > > Firstly, I must apologise if this article smacks of an impolite > > urgency and prescriptive-ness. I mean not to be arrogant, but as > > someone addressing you on a matter of deep concern to us all, I felt > > that there was little room for ceremonial apologies before every > > sentence. Also, as an Indian middle-class Hindu who grew up in the > > Babri-masjid 90s, it is easy for me to say some of the things I say > > here. > > > > Secondly, I address you, the reader, as an Indian citizen, not as a > > saintly Kabir or Gandhi preaching love for humanity. Our collective > > interests are being threatened by communal forces from within and > > without. WE MUST ACT. We must not merely lament about our respective > > versions of helplessnesses and others' faults. We are free today > > because India's greatest generation shook off the ghosts that > > bedevilled them, and took action to protect our interests. I implore > > you to continue that legacy. > > > > Thirdly, while I will go into what in my opinion are highly plausible > > theories of Indian nationhood and nationalism, my primary aim here is > > not to write any treatise on politics or sociology, but to protect our > > rights to belong equally to India – our common ancestral land – as > > Indians, and as free, dignified humans. > > > > Fourthly, my ideas will be presented largely based on first > > principles, also known as common-sense. > > > > My thesis is this: India must boldly assert its claim on Islamic > > civilisation in the subcontinent. That is the key to end our communal > > woes. > > > > This does not mean that India must become Islamic, or that Indian > > Muslims must be somehow Hinduised. The idea, instead, is to campaign > > relentlessly for India's Islamic civilisational authenticity. > > > > In the Indian psyche, Pakistan stands for Islam. Sadly for us and > > admittedly in a weaker form, Islam is also synonymous with Pakistan > > and everything Pakistani. This wouldn't have been so bad if Pakistan > > wasn't, well, un-Indian. We must use every tool at our disposal as a > > people to destroy the entrenched idea of Pakistani ownership of > > subcontinental Islam from within India. More importantly, this idea > > must be attacked from without it, because that is where it originates. > > > > Our chief weapon to eliminate Islam-Pakistan hyphenation from the > > subcontinent will be an authentic claim: the centre of Islamic > > civilisation in South Asia has always been undivided India, and after > > partition, India is its natural primary heir. The fact that a few > > million Muslims left India during partition to settle in our erstwhile > > outlying provinces doesn't change this. Neither does the fact that the > > Indian people chose a progressive, secular, democratic polity for > > their republic. > > > > In our minds and in the world's view, subcontinental Islam is under > > Pakistani occupation. The historical Indo-centric nature of > > subcontinental Islam should be used to throw off this psychological > > yoke. I urge Indians to rally together once again as our greatest > > generation did to protect our collective interests as the people of > > India. I urge friends of India all over the world to join us. Both in > > terms of geography and spirit, Islam in the subcontinent that > > coexisted and flourished alongside Indic cultures, has always been > > more Indian than Pakistani. If any single country represents > > subcontinental Islam as it historically was, it is India. Not > > Pakistan. > > > > India's Mughals. India's Qutub Minar, Gol Gumaz, and Taj Mahal. > > India's Kabir. India's Tipu Sultan, Shah Jahan, Akbar, and, why not, > > Aurangazeb. India's Urdu. India's Ghalib and Khusro. India's Delhi, > > Lucknow, Mysore, Hyderabad, Malabar, and Agra. > > > > Good history has to be deliberately written > > > > The people of India inherited thousands of years of history and > > associated baggage that we didn't really ask for. > > > > Keep in mind though that history is not a dead object - it is > > unfurling even as you read this. We may not be able to change what > > happened in India 200 years ago. But 200 years from now when people > > look back, they will see the Indian history that our generation wrote. > > It becomes then our duty, both as Indians and as sensible humans, to > > write it well. > > > > It is a great privilege to deliberately be able to write a part of > > something grand like the history of India. The first generation of > > Indians who did a coordinated job of writing our history was the one > > that won us our independence – our "freedom-generation". They could > > have attempted to write their Indian chapter any way they wanted to. > > We could have had a dark, China-style communism, for instance. But, > > given the Indian context, the freedom-generation chose the most > > egalitarian, elegant, and humanist theme they could come up with: a > > secular, liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, that takes its > > strength from its inherent pluralism and its inheritance of one of > > mankind's greatest civilisations. > > > > The freedom-generation's legacy for us is the deliberate and > > intelligent manner in which they forged an Indian national identity. > > Thanks to their efforts, our nationality is a solid concept. An Indian > > from Karnataka has a robust nationalistic bond with Indians say from > > Punjab, Gujarat, Assam, or Delhi. Regardless of what languages we > > speak, we all recognise Marathi, Tamil, Bengali and Telugu as Indian > > languages – ancestral assets that all Indians collectively own. > > > > It is a mistake, however, to think that the nation-building task they > > began is complete. Indian nationalism is not an idea frozen in time, > > but an evolving one. We, the successors of India's freedom-generation, > > must exercise our prerogative to define its finer contours and bring > > in new ideas to enrich it. Furthermore, we have an obligation to both > > our founding fathers and India's posterity to do this while being true > > to our quintessential Indian-ness, the just, egalitarian nature of our > > country as embodied in our constitution. > > > > Given that India's situation is not as pressing as it once was, new > > nationalist leaders – giants of the stature of Mahatma Gandhi, Khan > > Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Subhash Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh, Jawaharlal > > Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad or Vallabhai Patel – may be difficult to > > emerge. There is no need to though. We succeeded them, and we must > > take this task upon ourselves. The freedom-generation watches over us > > in the form of our fraternity as Indians which they moulded at a great > > cost, and our constitution. > > > > Indian Nationalism - the idea of Indian brotherhood > > > > Amidst all this noisy consternation of Taslima Nasrin, Babri-masjid, > > BJP-Congress etc., its easy to lose sight of the really big pictures. > > Consider, for instance, this question: what really is the essence of > > Indian nationalism? Why do we all feel so closely tied to India > > and to > > each other? > > > > My answer is that, to put it simply, without the land we call India, > > Indians either have no identity, or very anaemic identities. All > > Indians share this same curious relation to India. > > When we are born to the same human mother, we are brothers. Our > > constitution formed by our freedom-generation explicitly asserts > > fraternity among the Indian people. Fraternity – brotherhood. In what > > sense are we brothers? > > > > Indians are brothers in the sense that the motherland that birthed my > > identity, also birthed yours. India is our ancestral land, and we > > should be proud of everything associated with it. Everything in India, > > its religions, its good and its bad, its languages, its glories and > > struggles, its rivers, its emperors, its heroes and villains, > > everything – is intricately weaved into our consciousnesses of who we > > are, where we come from, what our place in this world is, and how > > other humans see us. Without that identity, we are crippled. > > > > Ours is no ordinary brotherhood. Indian people didn't come into being > > merely a few centuries ago. We are an ancient civilisation, and what > > we have is a civlisational brotherhood – a bond arising from all of > > our belonging to the civilisation that unfolded in the same land, > > India. That brotherhood was formally declared through the constitution > > in 1949, but it existed much before that. Before our greatest > > generation gave it a concrete wording in the 20th century, it was well > > moulded in the crucible that is our land, in the fire of the previous > > several dozen, if not more, centuries. > > > > Every country of the world has stories that define their national > > essences. What is the most essential feature of Indian > > nationalism? It > > is our Indian identity – our being tied to India, and our > > civilisational brotherhood to each other in being bonded so. All > > Indians, regardless of their religion or language, has this bond with > > India and with each other. > > Indians must pause for a while and think why our anthem's going over > > our landmarks is so emotive. Or why Hindu-Muslim-Sikh-Christian > > insignia are powerful. Or why merely thinking of our history, or our > > Kerala, Karnataka, Maharashtra, UP, Punjab and Bengal moves all of us > > equally. > > > > It's because they remind us of our organic ties to India, and the > > brotherhood that we have with each other. This natural bond given to > > us by our glorious and at times bloody history is important. If we > > don't uphold this bond with the ferocity that our greatest generation > > did, if we don't use it to protect our common interests, our country > > will remain weak. > > > > Our country's nature > > > > What is the nature of our country? What does it mean for something > > to be Indian? > > For one, if all of us Indians could get together today and declare in > > one voice that India stands for certain values, then that would be an > > authoritative statement. India is what Indians say it is. If, say, the > > people of the then-Indian civilisation – Hindus, Muslims, Christians, > > Buddhists, Sikhs, and Jains – had made such a statement 400 years ago > > and preserved its spirit through centuries, that would have probably > > have been one of the greatest Indian texts. > > > > If you will recall, a very similar event actually did happen in 1949, > > when the founding fathers of the Indian republic adopted, enacted, and > > gave to ourselves - the sovereign people of India - our constitution. > > The preamble reads, > > > > "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India > > into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure > > to all its citizens: > > JUSTICE, social, economic and political; > > LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; > > EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among them all > > FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and > > integrity of the Nation. > > IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, > > do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION." > > > > In an absolute sense, the values of justice, liberty, and equality > > have an intuitive appeal to all humans everywhere. However, the > > formidable authority of our constitution comes from the crushed but > > proud people who paid a very high price for our right to live as > > equals and as dignified humans in India. We must take their word for > > what India is – they must have known and dreamt quite a bit about it. > > > > India's greatest generation definitely realised that divisivism, > > self-doubt, and other demons from our past would haunt the republic > > they formed. Which is why the constitution is important. It helps us > > protect our country from ourselves. > > > > The Constitution. Indian Nationalism. How we will defend India. > > > > Those who doubt the moral power of our freedom-generation, our > > constitutional ethos, and Indian nationalism need only look at > > Pakistan, which renounced all these in its attempts not to be seen as > > Indian. Pakistan's leaders, in trying to defend their divisve national > > philosophy, forced the most horrible bankruptcy on its people. > > > > Rather than using Indian nationalism and the constitution to tackle > > our communal issues, I am appalled at the general trend to merely > > lament that India is on its way to being declared an non-secular state > > - the hundreds of millions of Indians fully intent on preventing this > > notwithstanding. > > > > Pakistan-style Islamism, Ummah-isation of Hinduism, alienation of > > Indian Muslims > > > > There are three major trends in India today that are relevant to > > our topic. > > > > Firstly, India has very serious conflicts of interest with Pakistan. > > We have gone to war with that country several times. Its society has > > issues with radicalisation and a general religious orthodoxy. Its > > regimes have relentlessly attacked India's internal fault-lines over > > the past few decades in the name of Islam. Tens of thousands of Indian > > soldiers have died defending our country against them. It is > > distinctly un-Indian and anti-Indian. > > > > Secondly, Hinduism is, for the lack of a better word, Ummah-ising, and > > this at times takes horrifyingly militant forms. I, given my personal > > biases, am all for Hindu solidarity and abolishing pseudo-secularism. > > However, an argument for Hindu-solidarity should not be allowed to > > take the form of an un-Indian religionalism that goes against the very > > spirit of India. > > > > Thirdly, Indian Muslims feel alienated from their own country. In > > India, Pakistan is synonymous with Islam. Unfortunately, Islam is also > > weakly synonymous with Pakistan. This has significantly undermined > > Indian Muslims' political standing in India vis-a-vis their fellow > > citizens. > > > > The havoc all this has wreaked on our society must not be ignored. > > India was home to one of humanity's greatest Islamic cultures for well > > over 1000 years. It is not, by any means, a dead part of our > > culture - > > nearly 160 million Indians are Muslims, several national icons are > > Muslims, mosques and Islamic architecture litter the country, and > > Muslim holidays are shared by all. And yet, to a lot of Indians, Islam > > doesn't feel Indian, but Pakistani. Despite their respective religious > > majorities, it is odd that Buddhism doesn't feel Sri Lankan, or > > Hinduism itself, Nepali. > > > > The partition of India and secular India's deprivation of its Islamic > > authenticity > > > > Has anyone thought what has actually happened here? Why is it that in > > India, an ancient civilisational land which has a unique Islamic > > culture just like Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, Islam is seen as somehow > > foreign? That is not because of Islam's being inconsistent with India > > – 1000 years and more of history and our combined freedom struggle > > should have proven this by now. > > > > During partition, founders of Pakistan expropriated the subcontinent's > > Islamic identity for defining their nation, Pakistan. Pakistan's > > struggle to keep its ideology alive has robbed us of our Islamic > > authenticity. India's secular nature not-withstanding, the ardour with > > which Pakistan argued itsideology and pushed its exclusivist national > > philosophy within the larger Islamic community ensured that it gained > > some traction in the Indian society. Pakistan's military conflicts > > with "Hindu" India only amplified this. > > > > It only takes a few of decades of intense activity for a new Zeitgeist > > to take root in a society. Consider denazification of Germany, China's > > turn into capitalism, and India's own economic liberalisation. 30 > > years – that is all it takes for a young generation to grow up shaped > > by a pervasive ideology. > > > > Though quite smaller than India, Pakistan is by no means a tiny > > nation. It is the world's 6th most populous country, one of its major > > economies, and a prominent player during the cold war. One cannot find > > fault with it - Pakistan had to defend its national philosophy. It has > > expended a tremendous amount of national effort over the last 60 years > > in achieving a strong association between subcontinental Islam and > > itself. > > > > They have succeeded splendidly. Islam in the subcontinent today is > > seen as prominently Pakistani and India's secular fabric warped by > > that perception. Pakistan is an Islamic nation - this somehow gives > > them a stronger claim on everything Islamic in the subcontinent. The > > world simply does not recognise India's Islamic authenticity, and > > neither do many Indians within. India continues to be associated > > primarily with Hinduism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, but not Islam. > > > > Does religious brotherhood entirely negate the organic bonds a human > > has to his ancestral land and its history, and to his fellow humans > > who share the same bonds as him? I don't really know. What I do know > > is that this is not the principle on which the Indian republic was > > founded, and its definitely not an Indian value. Religious supremacism > > and breaking up of Indian people are un-Indian philosophies. It goes > > against the very spirit of our freedom struggle, nationalism, and our > > constitution. > > > > Indians must remember that new Pakistani generations do not even have > > the same right to speak for India's Muslims that their earlier > > generations might have had. Indian democracy has proven this > > unnecessary anyway. > > > > Indo-Pak culture-drift and attempts at an unnatural bonhomie > > > > There is a delusion among the political class and Indian people that > > our shared past can be used to achieve friendly relations between > > India and Pakistan. My view is that in doing so, we are only > > reinforcing the internal Islam-Pakistan hyphenation. > > > > When historical developments asunder a people, over a period of time > > the newly formed groups drift increasingly farther from one another. > > Once upon time, Myanmar and Sri Lanka were part of India, just like > > Pakistan and Bangladesh. Afghanistan was part of several Indian > > empires. Today, though at a national level we have very cordial > > relations, they are distinctly unfamiliar to us. > > > > Such a natural drift has definitely taken place between India and > > Pakistan. The strongest bond between us that keeps us in each others' > > national memories is not anything positive that we share, but the > > acrid legacy of partition. It's hard for me as an Indian, for > > instance, to imagine such an Islamism taking hold of Pakistan if it > > were under Akbar's rule. That is, if it were under genuinely > > Indian-style Islamic rule. > > > > I am not suggesting we should actively pursue enmity with Pakistan or > > vilify it. However, its being clumped together with Indian Muslims is > > simply not healthy for India. What has Pakistan's 'leadership' of > > subcontinental Muslims, its advocacy of religious supremacism within, > > and its enmity with India effectively accomplished? It has robbed > > India of its genuine Islamic authenticity in the world's eyes, and > > caused non-Muslim Indians to reject the culture of an un-Indian enemy. > > Pakistan has highlighted Indian Muslims' being Islamic and > =3E consistently de-emphasized their being Indian. > > > > Pursuing an unnatural bonhomie with Pakistan and stressing our > > similarities with them will only weaken our case for our differences, > > which are very real. To uphold our national interest, we must assert > > and amplify these differences. > > > > Replace Islam-Pakistan hyphenation with Islam-India hyphenation in the > > subcontinent > > > > I urge Indians to spearhead a change of perception of Islam in the > > subcontinent. Anything that prevents Indian Muslims' fully asserting > > their claim on India as Indian citizens is against the national > > interest. The strong association in India between subcontinental Islam > > and the present day un-Indian Pakistan must go. > > > > It is tempting to claim that all South Asian countries share Islamic > > civilization equally. It may be polite and civil to do so, and it may > > even have some historical merit, but it's a weak claim for our > > purposes. It doesn't have the necessary boldness and self-conviction > > to be effective. It also doesn't forcefully argue for India's Islamic > > authenticity. Our aim is to end Islam-Pakistan hyphenation for the > > welfare of a billion humans, not to be fair observers of history. We > > must hence push the strongest nationalistic claim possible: Islam in > > the subcontinent is Indian, and it always has been. > > > > Indian Islam never 'went' anywhere – it is alive and well amidst us. > > Our nationalism and constitution are guarantees that it will > > thrive if > > Pakistan would let go of it. When the world thinks of Hinduism in > > South Asia, it thinks of India. Sikhism, it thinks of India. Buddhism, > > India. When it thinks of Islam in South Asia, it must think of India. > > Everyone in the subcontinent will be better off. Everyone. > > > > The idea that Islam in the subcontinent is primarily Indian can gain > > currency only through a concerted nationalist campaign. No apologies > > should be made for such a movement. No one need be convinced of its > > proponents' "patriotism". The obvious worthiness of the cause, its > > truth, and its urgency are justifications enough. > > > > What ideas might such a campaign seek to make current? > > > > The countries in our region share an intertwined, messy history. We > > have a lot in common - languages, religions, culture, quirks - all > > part of our common and colourful heritage. > > > > However, if our historical and religious assets must be divided > > amongst us, then the worthiest inheritor of Islamic heritage in the > > subcontinent can only be India. Not Pakistan, not Bangladesh, not Sri > > Lanka, not Myanmar, not Nepal. India is the only nation that has been > > true to the historical spirit of Indian Islam – that of flourishing > > alongside other Indic faiths in India. > > > > Slay our demons ourselves > > > > Has it ever struck you that in our country, we have a vicious > > circularity of the following sort: we feel dismayed that the > > country/political class/leadership has done nothing for us; a form of > > apathy and resignation sets in; the country/political class/leadership > > continues to do nothing; we feel increasingly more dismayed. > > > > We are a democracy. We individually must act. Things won't happen > > if we don't. > > I urge Indians to assert India's secularism and nationalism to fight > > alienation of the Muslim community from Indian mainstream. This battle > > is the easier one to win – there are hundreds of millions of > > reasonable Indians, the Indian constitution, the liberal press, the > > legacy of our freedom-generation, and truth and justice on our side. > > > > I also urge Indians to fight Pakistani supremacy of subcontinental > > Islam from the outside. That is the root of all our problems. That is > > the key battle in India's war against communalism. We must learn to > > say, "Thanks, but no thanks. I understand what you mean, but this is > > not really true" to anyone who stresses commonalities of any sort in > > the subcontinent. > > > > Who will go first? > > > > Based on the concept of ownership of our destiny, what are the answers > > to these questions: > > > > "But how can non-Muslims claim that Islam in the subcontinent is > > Indian when it is represented by Pakistan and Indian Muslims > > themselves imply so?" > > > > "How can Indian Muslims make the Indo-centric claim when there is a > > genuine sense of their alienation in India and rest of Indian society > > accuses them of siding with Pakistan. We cannot move against Pakstani > > Muslims. There is a lot in common between us." > > > > I don't know! I am definitely going, in my own way. That I know. I > > will not ever treat any Indian by as automatically allied with a > > foreign, inimical power. I will continue making people aware of the > > need to end the subcontinental Islam-Pakistan association and replace > > it with Islam-India. > > > > We shall NOT vilify. We shall have faith. > > > > Indians should stop vilifying each other. Not because it would be > > saintly to do so, but because it only weakens our unity. > > > > Our nationalism and our constitution are solid stuff. Our greatest > > generation did their job well. If we must challenge our fellow > > Indians, invoke these instruments. Face with stead-fast stoicism any > > slurs, any accusations of you being an anti-Indian Muslim or a > > communal Hindutvawadi. Let the diatribe die down. Repeat your > > arguments invoking our nationalism, constitution, and your reasoning > > again. Do not ask anyone to 'prove' his or her patriotism. It's > > demeaning to do so. > > > > Satyameva Jayate – truth alone triumphs. If you are right, you will > > win. Have faith in our country and in every Indians' goodness and > > genuine attachment to their land. > > > > Augmenting India's ideological basis > > > > Earlier I mentioned that our work on Indian nationhood is not a frozen > > process, but a continuing one. We can and must correct any earlier > > mistakes that continue to torment India's communal harmony. > > > > If the greatest challenge the freedom-generation faced was ending the > > British rule and forming a stable republic, the greatest challenge > > before us is to take back leadership of subcontinental Islam from > > Pakistan. Our challenge is to do this without sacrificing India's > > secular nature. > > > > To tackle our new communal challenges in the 21st century, I propose > > the following: > > 1. Secularism will continue to remain the Indian union's lynch > > pin. It > > should not, however, require any particular religious group's giving > > up their right to assert religious solidarity. We should genuinely > > address any concerns about hypocrisy in the name of secularism. > > > > 2. India is a mature concept, and we should actively use it to tackle > > the challenges before us. Secularism is an integral part of our > > nationhood and a historically irreversible development. It follows > > that religionalism – wherever it is practised – is distinctly > > un-Indian. Within India, it is also anti-Indian in the sense that they > > weaken India and goes against its spirit. > > > > 3. The natural heir to Islamic civilisation in the subcontinent is > > India. Subcontinental Islam has always been an Indian phenomenon. > > Pakistan's oft-reinforced association with Indian Muslims must be > > destroyed. > > > > 4. India's brotherhood with its neighbours is dying. Soon there will > > be an Indian generation which doesn't have a single Indian born before > > partition. Every single human in the subcontinent would have been born > > in the countries as they existed after partition. The continuing > > attempts to maintain an unnatural bonhomie with India's hostile > > neighbours is not a tenable project - Pakistan has moved too far away > > from what was once India. > > > > Indian Muslims. India's Islam. > > > > A shockingly large amount of our national energy is wasted in > > countering the effects of Islam-Pakistan hyphenation in the > > subcontinent. > > > > The solution is simple. Reclaim the part of Indian identity that was > > robbed of us some 60 years back. If India is Hindu, then for similar > > reasons, it is also Buddhist, Sikh, Christian - and Islamic. Purported > > authority over sub-continental Islam by other entities in the > > subcontinent is an outrageous farce that must be ended right away. > > > > There is no obligation to do this meekly. India doesn't have > > merely a > > substantial claim or merely an equal claim. It simply has more right > > to subcontinental Islamic heritage than anyone else by an > > overwhelmingly large margin, period. We must use it for our national > > well-being. > > > > Who can assert subcontinental Islam's Indian nature boldly, loudly, > > without an iota of self-doubt or hesitation? Who needs this to be done > > most urgently? Who suffers from a deprivation of their right to belong > > to India the most? The Hindus? Sikhs? Buddhists? Christians? Jains? > > Clearly not. Who else? > > > > The Indian Muslims. The others are left distinctly poorer and their > > country's communal harmony stressed, but their Indian genuineness is > > unquestioned within India and the world over. There is not going > > to be > > an un-Indian leader-nation for India's Sikhs, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists > > and Christians in our neighbourhood any time soon. > > > > http://indianmuslims.in/indias-islam/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping_________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=220 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Mon Jan 21 10:54:35 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:24:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? Message-ID: <630635.84215.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> You are absolutely correct now Mr. Krishna.. Kashmir was never a Hindu region... It was only before Mughal invasion.. And I don't understand... Do you know what Lord Krishna has preached in Geeta... What he himself did... You don't understand the depth of your own name.. Give me chance and I will let you know (If you are not a dummy Hindu here)... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: Pawan Durani ; Asit asitreds Cc: reader-list Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 11:55:35 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? "It is a historical fact that Kashmir has been intolerant towards hindus since last almost 1000 years and there have been more than 8 major exodus ofKashmiri pandits ". Does that mean that Kashmir was never a Hindu Country...!? What are you saying Pawan? KC > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:43:38 +0530 > From: pawan.durani at gmail.com > To: asitredsalute at gmail.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > Dear Mr Asit , > > I just wanted to clarify that the word Kashmiriat was used very cleaverly by > Kashmiri Muslim leaders to hide the atrocities on Kashmiri Hindus. > > It is a historical fact that Kashmir has been intolerant towards hindus > since last almost 1000 years and there have been more than 8 major exodus of > Kashmiri pandits . > > Regards > > Pawan Durani > > > On 1/20/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > > > lets not communalise the kashmir scene with talking about pandits and > > muslims what is imporatnt is kasmiriyat ant the national liberation of > > kashmir it is a occcupied territory of both pakistan and india we make a > > big > > scene about pandits what about thousands of kasmiri youth killed by the > > indian army the tortures the rapes and the natinal indignination of kasmir > > its not a question of hindus or muslims but the colonisation of kasmir by > > india and pakistan > > > > asit > > > > > > On 1/20/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > > > > > Same is the case when Theesta and the likes with "secular" media claim > > > "thousands of " muslims bucthered in Gujarath, but who bothers about > > truth > > > when one can get saudi riyals to defend the traitors of the nation with > > > highly paid "criminal" lawyers. ? > > > In riot both hindus and muslims loose their beloved, many lives are > > lost, > > > but this has origin in creating the Pakistan and then not encouraging > > the > > > indian muslims to go the land and nation they created for faith, after > > > promising to live in India like brothers to their society. ? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Wali Arifi > > > Date: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:58 pm > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > To: reader-list > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many > > > > lessons. One > > > > being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate figures when > > > > it comes to > > > > human loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the loss. In > > > > fact accuracy > > > > adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. In essence > > > > multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to take refuge in > > > > propagandaand cloth the truth with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mr Durrani in his post has said: "….for killing of more than 3000 > > > > Kashmiripandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this > > > > community." > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What is Mr Durrani > > > > trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of killings? > > > > Is he > > > > helping the community by exaggerating the figure? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri > > > > pandits were > > > > killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has to be understood that multiplying figures is dangerously > > > > counterproductive for those who call themselves as the champions and > > > > custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget about the > > > > use of > > > > words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing and so on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kashmir's history will be written by those who have dreamed of a 'just > > > > Kashmir'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or trying > > > > to create > > > > it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into what it has > > > > actuallybeen in all practice... **Majoritarianism. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Wali > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > list > > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From tulunadu at hotmail.com Mon Jan 21 11:42:49 2008 From: tulunadu at hotmail.com (Krishna Chaithanya) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:42:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome In-Reply-To: <310888.22244.qm@web90411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <310888.22244.qm@web90411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Glad to know that the supreme being has chosen you to save the nation Every religious fundamentalist believes that he is the chosen one and his religion is the only path May the god bless you Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:20:59 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com You are not to decide the right path... You are not among ones who can save the nation... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:43:30 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome You are the best human I've ever come across. I can feel your energy,very vinrant, unfortunately it has not found the right path God bless you Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:37:00 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com You first sacrifice your house to a Muslim.. And then we will think about Kashmir... You are an Idiot... and an Anti-National... Absolutely no doubt.. People like you will create many Kashmirs.. and get every Hindu killed... It is better you convert... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:37:51 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome I'v no problem accepting Kashmir as a country, why not the Govt. accept it? why should we sacrifice our soldiers there? How much resources we have wasted on Kashmir all these years? how many people we'v got killed? Is there any meaning to it. Isn't it stupid- instead of holding what is with us tight, we focused a lot on Kashmir and allowed the fire to spread to other regions. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:47:47 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com Yes.. I mean it... Because Kashmir is virtually a country now.. It is army of India that is still holding it.. And Muslims don't want that.. This is the reason, you find so much of Muslims shouting on Army.. This is the truth... Accept or Reject is your choice... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:10:18 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome I can start quoting dates with killing counts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... Correct yourself please... You'v said countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and KASHMIR....! > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:21:53 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com; kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > Don't mislead... > The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to India (all HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India... (I will get the Video uploaded on UTube on this, as this was shown by an external news channel)... and you say, women are raped in India.. > > You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of having more than one wife.. there is no freedom to women to report rapes... who will show what happens in your community... The Quran says them all... and I have all senteces of Quran right with me.... Believe me, all awaken Hindus are now reading Quran... they all know what is there in that book... > So, Muslims cannot fool the world any more that Quran teaches Peace... and Islam is a peaceful religion... > > Modi is a simple indication, what Hindus are now thinking... It is Muslims who have to think now... they have created this world a land of havoc... Everywhere they are simply engaged in Killing.... > They even kill each other, as in Iraq and now in Pakistan... And they are seriously killing Hindus like anything.... If this is again refuted... I can start quoting dates with killing counts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... > > I don't know, what is in their head.... How do they get so easily terrorised... What do they get in believing that killign an Idolator is a work of God... It is stupid... and yet they all are keeping this faith in their head.... > they all are not engaged in killing, but they all are engaged in supporting this act... > Quran says, forgive the Idolators only if they accept Islam... and Quran says this right from second Surah to the last one... > > Why? Our religion don't teach about this variance at all... Geeta teaches how to unite, how to live with respective with each other, how to love, how to perform duty... Why can't you teach peace... > > Why can't you understand that Nature has created every creature (of all species) unique and different.. Nature has produced variance so that creatures can live with respect to each other... A specie is not naturally allowed to kill the same specie.. except for humans.. where humans are killing humans... > > Let India live with its heritage of Hindutva... Thousands of years of killing and enforcement have failed to eliminate Hindus... Another thousand will also fail... Because nature will keep the variance alive... But the attempt of Islam and christianity would only produce killing of innocent people... > > Hindus would kill muslims only during riots or war... But Muslim would kill always for religious reasons... > Please stop talking all these things.. > Please talk peace... > Please talk how to proliferate the nation.. > Please suggest how to remove the Quranic Islam and produce Indian Islam... > Please stop attacking Hindus, Modi and Army... > Please, please, please.... > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Zainab Bawa > To: Kshmendra Kaul ; sarai list > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 3:42:08 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > Dear Kshmendra and all your supporters and back slappers, > > You can easily pinpoint Oishik for his outburst of anger and frustration and > then state that because he (mis)directed his anger at Vedavati and company, > he has no right to talk about the abuse of Manipuri women at the hands of > the Indian state appointed soldiers there. How about for a moment > questioning Lady Chanchal and her remarks and for once again coming back to > the issue that Oishik has tried to raise - the rape of women at the hands of > state appointed army and the manifestations of the state's violence at > women? > > Chanchal diverted the topic by once again going back to her pet peeve of > Islam and Muslim and her hang ups of some frozen history that she loves to > imagine. I pointed out to her that it has nothing to do with Hindu-Muslim > populations and Hindu-Muslim army soldiers but a larger question and concern > about women being direct targets of state violence (with that state violence > and injustice also being responsible for the rise of all kinds of other > movements to combat it). I then pointed to Chanchal how I have also been > eve-teased in Srinagar by soldiers. No, they did not come to ask me whether > I was Hindu or Muslim but made lewd remarks simply because I was woman and > bear breasts and bosom on my person. I also want to clarify that it not > about the soldiers themselves, but about the institutions and the systems > that get perpetrated within the structure of the conflict and occupation of > space. Chanchal immediately retorted saying that because I happen to be > "Muslim", I am likely to complain about being eve teased. *What kind of a > patriarchal and discriminatory remark is this?* This does not come to your > attention but Oishik's suggestion of anal stimulation immediately strikes > you and you make claims about the mothers and sisters of the world. You > don't recognize that we have turned this into a battle of whose position is > right and backslapping. In our egostical positions and pride and victimized > states, as Gowhar and others have rightly pointed out, we fail to see who > suffers - children who are beaten by the army, women who are serially raped > and butchered, men whose psyches have been muted by the violences, families > that continue to suffer the losses of their loved ones, etc. and this is not > restricted to Kashmir, but to violence all over the world. But perhaps, you > would brush this aside by exclaiming that these are standard complaints of > Muslims. And then you cleverly subvert every issue, incidence and event to > Kashmir and to Muslims. Clever you! > > On this note, having personally known Oishik, I vouch for him as a very > sincere, honest and well-meaning person. One remark of anger and frustration > does not define a person's overall political commitments and thoughts. And > this would apply to my not boxing either of you as good or bad people on the > basis of your positions. > > Best, > > Zainab > > *P.S. Any immediate retort/s to this email will be and ought to be > categorically ignored. * > > > On Jan 20, 2008 3:05 PM, wrote: > > > Well said, with lal salaaam. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:48 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > To: sarai list > > > > > Oishik > > > > > > 1. Thank you for the suggestion directed to me. It does not > > > interest me. I too have some suggestions for you. > > > > > > 2. You seem to be obsessed with what you have experienced and > > > suggested. You see a lot of merit in it. > > > > > > 3. Charitable soul that you are, you must have promoted it to > > > your circle of family and friends. > > > > > > 4. OISHIT, since there might be others of your kind who might > > > not find your suggestions/language obscene and crude, you must > > > convince them about it. You must provide references for them on > > > the efficacy of your suggestion. > > > > > > 5. So OISHIT, I presume we will get testimonials from your > > > mother, sisters (if any), daughters (if any) and others to whom > > > you must have recommended the stimulation. They certainly would > > > have respected your suggestion. Maybe you even helped them in the > > > processes in the course of convincing them that your suggestion on > > > means to experience pleasure is not abuse. You must mention the > > > role played by you. > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > > > Kshmendra: > > > > > > That was not meant to be an abuse at all... it was meant to > > > suggest a means to experience anal stimulation that can be > > > orgasmic... I have tried it... so suggested that Vedavati do the > > > same... you could also do the same... actually all the HINDUS who > > > are obsessing about nationalism on this listserv should do the > > > same... they'll realise that there are better and more enjoyable -- > > > and of course more useful things in life to do than spew virulent > > > intolerance. Suggesting means to experience pleasure is not abuse, > > > I'm sure you'll agree. > > > > > > And I am overwhelmed with the kind of response my comments have > > > attracted -- that's the way to keep the Hindu bullshitters engaged > > > I can clearly see. > > > > > > If you find this mail to be crude and obscene as well -- I > > > would've made my point. > > > > > > Cheers... > > > > > > Oishik > > > > > > On Jan 19, 2008 3:16 AM, Kshmendra Kaul > > > wrote: > > > It is ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to > > > the notice of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against > > > abuse directed at them. > > > > > > Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI) > > > was the one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and > > > obscene manner. > > > > > > Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would > > > have to say to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights" > > > (sic). > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > > Try it now. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > > Room 016 B > > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > > > 416.876.7926 > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > > Try it now. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Fly HYD-BLR for Rs.499 Log on to MakeMyTrip! Check it out! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Mon Jan 21 11:47:54 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:17:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] what non-Muslims say about Quran, Islam Message-ID: <480145.16815.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I agree to your point 4... In fact, I nearly agree to all your points... I will take any reference of Quran you want to give... I am using the only published by Kitab Bhawan... If you are really eager... I will give you reference of Bhagwad Geeta... You can take your own time to go through it and start our discussion... I am not in a mood to compare.. as I have already read both and there is no comparision possible... While Quran talks only about Believers and Non-Believers of Islam... Bhagwad Geeta is all about Humanity (no religion)... If a Muslim will read Bhagwad Geeta even with a mind to find Hindutva in it, he will fail... So comparision is not possible... If you come to more ground reality, Hindu is a word forced on us by Muslims only, to categorize us as Idol Worshippers and people of Sindhu region... And moreover, most of the Muslims of this region were basically Hindus some generations in past... Their forefathers are forced Islam acceptors... And no one can deny this truth, because it is a well known history that around 1000 years ago, it is Muslims who invaded this region and not that we were Muslims... So, instead of having Soft Corner for Hindu brothers (the heirs of same forefathers), Muslims are doing the same thing that the invaders did... They do not have any regard for our Temples.... They do not have regard of Dieties...The fight is forced... You will get many Hindus who are regard for Quran (those who have not read it).. as the basic culture is to respect anything that is peace and God... But this is not the same that is returned by Islamic and Christian people... And hence, we are finding dirty game of Conversion in full force... > From: Javed > To: chanchal malviya > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:43:46 PM > Subject: what non-Muslims say about Quran, Islam > > Dear Chanchal ji > If you have read Quran and found only war and terror in it, why do so > many non-Muslim scholars and philosophers (including Mahatma Gandhi > and K. S. Ramakrishna Rao) have said so many great things about it. > Please read these quotes carefully. Some of these people are actually > saying just the reverse of what you claim. > > ===== > > Thomas Carlyle in 'Heroes and Hero Worship and the Heroic in History,' 1840: > > "The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round > this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only." "A silent > great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle > the world, the world's Maker had ordered so." > > > A. S. Tritton in 'Islam,' 1951: > > The picture of the Muslim soldier advancing with a sword in one hand > and the Qur'an in the other is quite false. > > > De Lacy O'Leary in 'Islam at the Crossroads,' London, 1923: > > History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims > sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of sword > upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths > that historians have ever repeated. > > > Gibbon in 'The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' 1823: > > The good sense of Muhammad despised the pomp of royalty. The Apostle > of God submitted to the menial offices of the family; he kindled the > fire; swept the floor; milked the ewes; and mended with his own hands > his shoes and garments. Disdaining the penance and merit of a hermit, > he observed without effort of vanity the abstemious diet of an Arab. > > > Edward Gibbon and Simon Oakley in 'History of the Saracen Empire,' London, > 1870: > > "The greatest success of Mohammad's life was effected by sheer moral force." > "It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that > deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he > engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved after the revolutions of > twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish proselytes > of the Koran....The Mahometans have uniformly withstood the temptation > of reducing the object of their faith and devotion to a level with the > senses and imagination of man. 'I believe in One God and Mahomet the > Apostle of God' is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The > intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible > idol; the DEFANGED.218> ----- Original Message ---- From: Javed To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 12:19:07 AM Subject: Re: what non-Muslims say about Quran, Islam Dear Chanchal ji I would love to take up this challenge - I don't mind having a debate with you. But there are a few very basic things first. (1) I am not attacking Bhagwat Gita, I have no problem with it, I haven't read it, I don't own a copy right now, so I can't argue for or against it any way, nor do I want to condemn it in any way. As a matter of fact, I respect it, just as I respect all other books of wisdom. Quite simply, I have nothing to say against Bhagwat Gita or any other Holy book. So you have already won on that account. (2) How can I trust you in a discussion when you keep rejecting my facts by saying "Gandhi never read Quran", and "forget what people say" - how can we forget/ignore things which have been said before about Quran. Are you saying that all those philosophers (which I quoted) have not read what you have read? Or are you claiming to know more about Islam than what all those people have known? Although many of them are Christians but that doesn't mean that they would be more sympathatic to Islam. The hostilities between Muslims and Christians have been equally terrible. (3) I would like to know exactly which translation of the Quran are you quoting from. Just like you do not approve my references, I may have a problems with your sources. So, let us start with that. Please let me know which translation of the Quran are you reading. (4) Please remember, the most important point which I will keep referring to is: The Quran, or any other historical/holy book for that matter, was written/compiled at a certain stage in history, at a certain geographical location, for a certain cultural context. We have to read/interprete each word of that book in the context of those times and that location. If we start applying anything from that text to the current situation and intepret today's reality from the point of view of that old text, we are going to run into trouble - our interpretations and evaluations will always be problematic. And I can already foresee our running into that quagmire. Some Muslims may say that Quran applies to all times and all humans equally, but a sociologist/historian may see Quran to be a historical document (my apologies if I'm hurting anyone's sentiments). And I would like to treat it (at least in this discussion) at a historical document. (5) I am not in a mood to fight - the way you are writing so aggressively. I would love to participate in a discussion if we tone down a bit. If you think that my above points make sense, then let us go ahead. I am ready for the discussion. I am really looking forward to a scholarly, mature, non-partisan, and parliamentary discussion with you, in good spirits. Javed On 1/20/08, chanchal malviya wrote: > > Mahatma Gandhi never read Quran.. He only read Bhagwad Geeta.. and hence > what he said was his perception about Quran as a religion... > And forget about what people said... > > Have courage to discuss it personally... > I will have Bhagwad Geeta (the most accepted book of Hindus)... and you > quote from that book.. > I will also have Quran (the one translated by your writers)... and I quote > from that book... > > Every page of Quran teaches hatred... and many page teaches killings.... > > I invite you for an open discussion... here on this forum... two books > (Don't divert to other books of Hindus, by quoting Dr. Naiks findings, that > has already been taken care of and I can provide link where it has been > answered)... Let us focus just two books... one yours and one mine... > > I invite... things would be clear.. > > > ----- Original Message ----honors of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of > human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of > his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion." > > > Reverend Bosworth Smith in 'Muhammad and Muhammadanism,' London, 1874: > > "Head of the State as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in > one; but he was Pope without the Pope's pretensions, and Caesar > without the legions of Caesar, without a standing army, without a > bodyguard, without a police force, without a fixed revenue. If ever a > man ruled by a right divine, it was Muhammad, for he had all the > powers without their supports. He cared not for the dressings of > power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his > public life." > "In Mohammadanism every thing is different here. Instead of the > shadowy and the mysterious, we have history....We know of the external > history of Muhammad.... while for his internal history after his > mission had been proclaimed, we have a book absolutely unique in its > origin, in its preservation....on the Substantial authority of which > no one has ever been able to cast a serious doubt." > > > Edward Montet, 'La Propagande Chretienne et ses Adversaries > Musulmans,' Paris 1890. (Also in T.W. Arnold in 'The Preaching of > Islam,' London 1913.): > > "Islam is a religion that is essentially rationalistic in the widest > sense of this term considered etymologically and historically....the > teachings of the Prophet, the Qur'an has invariably kept its place as > the fundamental starting point, and the dogma of unity of God has > always been proclaimed therein with a grandeur a majesty, an > invariable purity and with a note of sure conviction, which it is hard > to find surpassed outside the pale of Islam....A creed so precise, so > stripped of all theological complexities and consequently so > accessible to the ordinary understanding might be expected to possess > and does indeed possess a marvelous power of winning its way into the > consciences of men." > > > Alphonse de LaMartaine in 'Historie de la Turquie,' Paris, 1854: > > "Never has a man set for himself, voluntarily or involuntarily, a more > sublime aim, since this aim was superhuman; to subvert superstitions > which had been imposed between man and his Creator, to render God unto > man and man unto God; to restore the rational and sacred idea of > divinity amidst the chaos of the material and disfigured gods of > idolatry, then existing. Never has a man undertaken a work so far > beyond human power with so feeble means, for he (Muhammad) had in the > conception as well as in the execution of such a great design, no > other instrument than himself and no other aid except a handful of men > living in a corner of the desert. Finally, never has a man > accomplished such a huge and lasting revolution in the world, because > in less than two centuries after its appearance, Islam, in faith and > in arms, reigned over the whole of Arabia, and conquered, in God's > name, Persia Khorasan, Transoxania, Western India, Syria, Egypt, > Abyssinia, all the known continent of Northern Africa, numerous > islands of the Mediterranean Sea, Spain, and part of Gaul. "If > greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astonishing results are > the three criteria of a human genius, who could dare compare any great > man in history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws, > and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than > material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man > moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples, dynasties, but > millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more > than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, > the beliefs and the souls. > > "On the basis of a Book, every letter which has become law, he created > a spiritual nationality which blend together peoples of every tongue > and race. He has left the indelible characteristic of this Muslim > nationality the hatred of false gods and the passion for the One and > Immaterial God. This avenging patriotism against the profanation of > Heaven formed the virtue of the followers of Muhammad; the conquest of > one-third the earth to the dogma was his miracle; or rather it was not > the miracle of man but that of reason. > > "The idea of the unity of God, proclaimed amidst the exhaustion of the > fabulous theogonies, was in itself such a miracle that upon it's > utterance from his lips it destroyed all the ancient temples of idols > and set on fire one-third of the world. His life, his meditations, his > heroic revelings against the superstitions of his country, and his > boldness in defying the furies of idolatry, his firmness in enduring > them for fifteen years in Mecca, his acceptance of the role of public > scorn and almost of being a victim of his fellow countrymen... This > dogma was twofold the unity of God and the immateriality of God: the > former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the > one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea > with words. > > "Philosopher, Orator, Apostle, Legislator, Conqueror of Ideas, > Restorer of Rational beliefs.... The founder of twenty terrestrial > empires and of one spiritual empire that is Muhammad. As regards all > standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, > is there any man greater than he?" > > > Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in 'Young India,'1924: > > I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an > undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became > more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place > for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid > simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous > regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, > his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in > his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before > them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume > (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to > read of that great life. > > > Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936: > > "If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe > within the next hundred years, it could be Islam." I have always held > the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful > vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that > assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can > make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful > man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called > the Savior of Humanity." > > "I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of > the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way > that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have > prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to > the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the > Europe of today." > > > Michael Hart in 'The 100, A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons In > History,' New York, 1978: > > My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential > persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but > he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both > the secular and religious level. ...It is probable that the relative > influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined > influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. ...It is this > unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I > feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single > figure in human history. > > > Dr. William Draper in 'History of Intellectual Development of Europe': > > Four years after the death of Justinian, A.D. 569, was born in Mecca, > in Arabia, the man who, of all men, has exercised the greatest > influence upon the human race... To be the religious head of many > empires, to guide the daily life of one-third of the human race, may > perhaps justify the title of a Messenger of God. > > > Arthur Glyn Leonard in 'Islam, Her Moral and Spiritual Values': > > It was the genius of Muhammad, the spirit that he breathed into the > Arabs through the soul of Islam that exalted them. That raised them > out of the lethargy and low level of tribal stagnation up to the high > watermark of national unity and empire. It was in the sublimity of > Muhammad's deism, the simplicity, the sobriety and purity it > inculcated the fidelity of its founder to his own tenets, that acted > on their moral and intellectual fiber with all the magnetism of true > inspiration. > > > Philip K. Hitti in 'History of the Arabs': > > Within a brief span of mortal life, Muhammad called forth of > unpromising material, a nation, never welded before; in a country that > was hitherto but a geographical expression he established a religion > which in vast areas suppressed Christianity and Judaism, and laid the > basis of an empire that was soon to embrace within its far flung > boundaries the fairest provinces the then civilized world. > > > Rodwell in the Preface to his translation of the Holy Qur'an: > > Mohammad's career is a wonderful instance of the force and life that > resides in him who possesses an intense faith in God and in the unseen > world. He will always be regarded as one of those who have had that > influence over the faith, morals and whole earthly life of their > fellow men, which none but a really great man ever did, or can > exercise; and whose efforts to propagate a great verity will prosper. > > > W. Montgomery Watt in 'Muhammad at Mecca,' Oxford, 1953: > > His readiness to undergo persecution for his beliefs, the high moral > character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as a > leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement - all argue his > fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more > problems that it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of > history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.... Thus, not > merely must we credit Muhammad with essential honesty and integrity of > purpose, if we are to understand him at all; if we are to correct the > errors we have inherited from the past, we must not forget the > conclusive proof is a much stricter requirement than a show of > plausibility, and in a matter such as this only to be attained with > difficulty. > > > D. G. Hogarth in 'Arabia': > > Serious or trivial, his daily behavior has instituted a canon which > millions observe this day with conscious memory. No one regarded by > any section of the human race as Perfect Man has ever been imitated so > minutely. The conduct of the founder of Christianity has not governed > the ordinary life of his followers. Moreover, no founder of a religion > has left on so solitary an eminence as the Muslim apostle. > > > Washington Irving 'Mahomet and His Successors': > > He was sober and abstemious in his diet and a rigorous observer of > fasts. He indulged in no magnificence of apparel, the ostentation of a > petty mind; neither was his simplicity in dress affected but a result > of real disregard for distinction from so trivial a source. In his > private dealings he was just. He treated friends and strangers, the > rich and poor, the powerful and weak, with equity, and was beloved by > the common people for the affability with which he received them, and > listened to their complaints. His military triumphs awakened no pride > nor vain glory, as they would have done had they been effected for > selfish purposes. In the time of his greatest power he maintained the > same simplicity of manners and appearance as in the days of his > adversity. So far from affecting a regal state, he was displeased if, > on entering a room, any unusual testimonials of respect were shown to > him. If he aimed at a universal dominion, it was the dominion of > faith; as to the temporal rule which grew up in his hands, as he used > it without ostentation, so he took no step to perpetuate it in his > family. > > > James Michener in 'Islam: The Misunderstood Religion,' Reader's > Digest, May 1955, pp. 68-70: > > "No other religion in history spread so rapidly as Islam. The West has > widely believed that this surge of religion was made possible by the > sword. But no modern scholar accepts this idea, and the Qur'an is > explicit in the support of the freedom of conscience." > "Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of > serving as the transmitter of God's word sensing his own inadequacy. > But the Angel commanded 'Read'. So far as we know, Muhammad was unable > to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which > would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one > God"." > > "In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son > Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred and rumors of God 's personal > condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have > announced, 'An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to > attribute such things to the death or birth of a human being'." > > "At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man > who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria > with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: 'If there are > any among you who worshiped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you > Worshiped, He lives for ever'." > > > Lawrence E. Browne in 'The Prospects of Islam,' 1944: > > Incidentally these well-established facts dispose of the idea so > widely fostered in Christian writings that the Muslims, wherever they > went, forced people to accept Islam at the point of the sword. > > > K. S. Ramakrishna Rao in 'Mohammed: The Prophet of Islam,' 1989 > > My problem to write this monograph is easier, because we are not > generally fed now on that (distorted) kind of history and much time > need not be spent on pointing out our misrepresentations of Islam. The > theory of Islam and sword, for instance, is not heard now in any > quarter worth the name. The principle of Islam that "there is no > compulsion in religion" is well known. > > Napolean Bonaparte as Quoted in Christian Cherfils, 'Bonaparte et > Islam,' Pedone Ed., Paris, France, 1914, pp. 105, 125. > Original References: "Correspondance de Napoléon Ier Tome V pièce n° > 4287 du 17/07/1799..." > > "Moses has revealed the existence of God to his nation. Jesus Christ > to the Roman world, Muhammad to the old continent... "Arabia was > idolatrous when, six centuries after Jesus, Muhammad introduced the > worship of the God of Abraham, of Ishmael, of Moses, and Jesus. The > Ariyans and some other sects had disturbed the tranquility of the east > by agitating the question of the nature of the Father, the son, and > the Holy Ghost. Muhammad declared that there was none but one God who > had no father, no son and that the trinity imported the idea of > idolatry... > > "I hope the time is not far off when I shall be able to unite all the > wise and educated men of all the countries and establish a uniform > regime based on the principles of Qur'an which alone are true and > which alone can lead men to happiness." > > > Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936. > > "If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe > within the next hundred years, it could be Islam." "I have always held > the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful > vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that > assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can > make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the > wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must > be called the Savior of Humanity." > > "I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of > the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way > that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have > prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to > the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the > Europe of today." > > > Bertrand Russel in 'History of Western Philosophy,' London, 1948, p. 419. > > "Our use of phrase 'The Dark ages' to cover the period from 699 to > 1,000 marks our undue concentration on Western Europe... > "From India to Spain, the brilliant civilization of Islam flourished. > What was lost to christendom at this time was not lost to > civilization, but quite the contrary... > > "To us it seems that West-European civilization is civilization, but > this is a narrow view." > > H.G. Wells > > "The Islamic teachings have left great traditions for equitable and > gentle dealings and behavior, and inspire people with nobility and > tolerance. These are human teachings of the highest order and at the > same time practicable. These teachings brought into existence a > society in which hard-heartedness and collective oppression and > injustice were the least as compared with all other societies > preceding it....Islam is replete with gentleness, courtesy, and > fraternity." > > > Dr. William Draper in 'History of Intellectual Development of Europe' > > "During the period of the Caliphs the learned men of the Christians > and the Jews were not only held in great esteem but were appointed to > posts of great responsibility, and were promoted to the high ranking > job in the government....He (Caliph Haroon Rasheed) never considered > to which country a learned person belonged nor his faith and belief, > but only his excellence in the field of learning." > > > Thomas Carlyle in 'Heroes, Hero Worship, and the Heroic in History,' > Lecture 2, Friday, 8th May 1840. > > "As there is no danger of our becoming, any of us, Mahometans (i.e. > Muslim), I mean to say all the good of him I justly can... "When > Pococke inquired of Grotius, where the proof was of that story of the > pigeon, trained to pick peas from Mahomet's (Muhammad's) ear, and pass > for an angel dictating to him? Grotius answered that there was no > proof!... > > "A poor, hard-toiling, ill-provided man; careless of what vulgar men > toil for. Not a bad man, I should say; Something better in him than > hunger of any sort, -- or these wild arab men, fighting and jostling > three-and-twenty years at his hand, in close contact with him always, > would not revered him so! They were wild men bursting ever and anon > into quarrel, into all kinds of fierce sincerity; without right worth > and manhood, no man could have commanded them. They called him prophet > you say? Why he stood there face to face with them; bare, not > enshrined in any mystry; visibly clouting his own cloak, cobbling his > own shoes; fighting, counselling, ordering in the midst of them: they > must have seen what kind of man he was, let him be called what you > like! No emperor with his tiaras was obeyed as this man in a cloak of > his own clouting. During three-and-twenty years of rough actual trial. > I find something of a veritable Hero necessary for that, of itself... > > "These Arabs, the man Mahomet, and that one century, - is it not as if > a spark had fallen, one spark, on a world of what proves explosive > powder, blazes heaven-high from Delhi to Granada! I said, the Great > man was always as lightning out of Heaven; the rest of men waited for > him like fuel, and then they too would flame..." > > > Phillip Hitti in 'Short History of the Arabs.' > > "During all the first part of the Middle Ages, no other people made as > important a contribution to human progress as did the Arabs, if we > take this term to mean all those whose mother-tongue was Arabic, and > not merely those living in the Arabian peninsula. For centuries, > Arabic was the language of learning, culture and intellectual progress > for the whole of the civilized world with the exception of the Far > East. From the IXth to the XIIth century there were more > philosophical, medical, historical, religiuos, astronomical and > geographical works written in Arabic than in any other human tongue." > > > Carra de Vaux in 'The Philosophers of Islam,' Paris, 1921. > > "Finally how can one forget that at the same time the Mogul Empire of > India (1526-1857 C.E.) was giving the world the Taj Mahal (completed > in 1648 C.E.) the architectural beauty of which has never been > surpassed, and the 'Akbar Nameh' of Abul Fazl: "That extraordinary > work full of life ideas and learning where every aspect of life is > examined listed and classified, and where progress continually dazzles > the eye, is a document of which Oriental civilization may justly be > proud. The men whose genius finds its expression in this book were far > in advance of their age in the practical art of government, and they > were perhaps in advance of it in their speculations about religious > philosophy. Those poets those philosophers knew how to deal with the > world or matter. They observe, classify, calculate and experiment. All > the ideas that occur to them are tested against facts. They express > them with eloquence but they also support them with statistics."...the > principles of tolerance, justice and humanity which prevailed during > the long reign of Akbar." > > > Marcel Clerget in 'La Turquie, Passe et Present,' Paris, 1938. > > "Many proofs of high cultural level of the Ottoman Empire during the > reign of Suleiman the Magnificent are to be found in the development > of science and law; in the flowering of literary works in Arabic, > Persian and Turkish; in the contemporary monuments in Istanbul, Bursa, > and Edirne; in the boom in luxury industries; in the sumptuous life of > the court and high dignitaries, and last but not least in its > religious tolerance. All the various influences - notably Turkish, > Byzantine and Italian mingle together and help to make this the most > brilliant epoch of the Ottomans." > > > Michael the Elder (Great) as Quoted in 'Michael the Elder, Chronique > de Michael Syrien, Patriarche Jacobite d' Antioche,' J.B. Chabot, > Editor, Vol. II, Paris, 1901. > > "This is why the God of vengeance, who alone is all-powerful, and > changes the empire of mortals as He will, giving it to whomsoever He > will, and uplifting the humble beholding the wickedness of the Romans > who throughout their dominions, cruelly plundered our churches and our > monasteries and condemned us without pity, brought from the region of > the south the sons of Ishmael, to deliver us through them from the > hands of the Romans. And if in truth we have suffered some loss, > because the Catholic churches, that had been taken away from us and > given to the > Chalcedonians, remained in their possession; for when the cities > submitted to the Arabs, they assigned to each denomination the > churches which they found it to be in possession of (and at that time > the great churches of Emessa and that of Harran had been taken away > from us); nevertheless it was no slight advantage for us to be > delivered from the cruelty of the Romans, their wickedness, their > wrath and cruel zeal against us, and to find ourselves at people. > (Michael the Elder, Jacobite Patriarch of Antioch wrote this text in > the latter part of the twelfth century, after five > centuries of Muslim rule in that region. Click here for a relevant > document sent to the monks of St. Catherine Monastery in Mt. Sinai, > 628 C.E.) > > > Sir John Bagot Glubb > > "Khalif (Caliph) Al-Ma'mun's period of rule (813 - 833 C.E.) may be > considered the 'golden age' of science and learning. He had always > been devoted to books and to learned pursuits. His brilliant mind was > interested in every form of intellectual activity. Not only poetry but > also philosophy, theology, astronomy, medicine and law all occupied > his time." > "By Mamun's time medical schools were extremely active in Baghdad. The > first free public hospital was opened in Baghdad during the Caliphate > of Haroon-ar-Rashid. As the system developed, physicians and surgeons > were appointed who gave lectures to medical students and issued > diplomas to those who were considered qualified to practice. The first > hospital in Egypt was opened in 872 AD and thereafter public hospitals > sprang up all over the empire from Spain and the Maghrib to Persia." > > > On the Holocaust of Baghdad (1258 C.E.) Perpetrated by Hulagu: > "The city was systematically looted, destroyed and burnt. Eight > hundred thousand persons are said to have been killed. The Khalif > Mustasim was sewn up in a sack and trampled to death under the feet of > Mongol horses. > > "For five hundred years, Baghdad had been a city of palaces, mosques, > libraries and colleges. Its universities and hospitals were the most > up-to-date in the world. Nothing now remained but heaps of rubble and > a stench of decaying human flesh." ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From tulunadu at hotmail.com Mon Jan 21 11:54:30 2008 From: tulunadu at hotmail.com (Krishna Chaithanya) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:54:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? In-Reply-To: <630635.84215.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <630635.84215.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Chanchal, Lord krishna has preached so many things. He also wanted the world to understand what MAYA is all about. If a Hindu scholar who has digested thousands of holy books and still doesn't understand the meaning of MAYA. What can poor Krishna do...!? KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:24:35 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; pawan.durani at gmail.com; asitredsalute at gmail.com CC: reader-list at sarai.net You are absolutely correct now Mr. Krishna.. Kashmir was never a Hindu region... It was only before Mughal invasion.. And I don't understand... Do you know what Lord Krishna has preached in Geeta... What he himself did... You don't understand the depth of your own name.. Give me chance and I will let you know (If you are not a dummy Hindu here)... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: Pawan Durani ; Asit asitreds Cc: reader-list Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 11:55:35 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? "It is a historical fact that Kashmir has been intolerant towards hindus since last almost 1000 years and there have been more than 8 major exodus ofKashmiri pandits ". Does that mean that Kashmir was never a Hindu Country...!? What are you saying Pawan? KC > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:43:38 +0530 > From: pawan.durani at gmail.com > To: asitredsalute at gmail.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > Dear Mr Asit , > > I just wanted to clarify that the word Kashmiriat was used very cleaverly by > Kashmiri Muslim leaders to hide the atrocities on Kashmiri Hindus. > > It is a historical fact that Kashmir has been intolerant towards hindus > since last almost 1000 years and there have been more than 8 major exodus of > Kashmiri pandits . > > Regards > > Pawan Durani > > > On 1/20/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > > > lets not communalise the kashmir scene with talking about pandits and > > muslims what is imporatnt is kasmiriyat ant the national liberation of > > kashmir it is a occcupied territory of both pakistan and india we make a > > big > > scene about pandits what about thousands of kasmiri youth killed by the > > indian army the tortures the rapes and the natinal indignination of kasmir > > its not a question of hindus or muslims but the colonisation of kasmir by > > india and pakistan > > > > asit > > > > > > On 1/20/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > > > > > Same is the case when Theesta and the likes with "secular" media claim > > > "thousands of " muslims bucthered in Gujarath, but who bothers about > > truth > > > when one can get saudi riyals to defend the traitors of the nation with > > > highly paid "criminal" lawyers. ? > > > In riot both hindus and muslims loose their beloved, many lives are > > lost, > > > but this has origin in creating the Pakistan and then not encouraging > > the > > > indian muslims to go the land and nation they created for faith, after > > > promising to live in India like brothers to their society. ? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Wali Arifi > > > Date: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:58 pm > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > To: reader-list > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many > > > > lessons. One > > > > being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate figures when > > > > it comes to > > > > human loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the loss. In > > > > fact accuracy > > > > adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. In essence > > > > multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to take refuge in > > > > propagandaand cloth the truth with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mr Durrani in his post has said: "….for killing of more than 3000 > > > > Kashmiripandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this > > > > community." > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What is Mr Durrani > > > > trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of killings? > > > > Is he > > > > helping the community by exaggerating the figure? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri > > > > pandits were > > > > killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has to be understood that multiplying figures is dangerously > > > > counterproductive for those who call themselves as the champions and > > > > custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget about the > > > > use of > > > > words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing and so on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kashmir's history will be written by those who have dreamed of a 'just > > > > Kashmir'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or trying > > > > to create > > > > it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into what it has > > > > actuallybeen in all practice... **Majoritarianism. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Wali > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > list > > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=220 From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Mon Jan 21 12:07:00 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:37:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Message-ID: <19393.87252.qm@web90413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> After reading Bhagwad Geeta, if you are not able to differentiate between what is Dhrama and what is Adharma... What is Sattvika and what is Tamasika... I am sorry... Bhagwad Geeta is not a a book for those who have given up action... It is for those who knows what is duty (not religion for Dharma means duty in Hinduism and not Religion, unlike all other religion).... And now when Adharma is coming on top of Dharma, it is now time to create Arjuna, who can understand Geeta and perform action in protection of Dharma... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:48:27 AM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Dear Chanchal, Who is this 'You' that you mention. Am I not you...? are you not me...? who is the thinker...? Mantra is not for thinking it is for feeling... experiencing. May be you should read Sri Mad Bagavadgeeta again. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:22:05 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net You are a selfish person... Realizing Shanti only for you... The mantra is far deep than you can even think... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: reader-list at sarai.net; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:37:06 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. What I know can not be expressed in words. I feel peace within me when I Chant OM SHANTHI SHANTHI SHANTHI. It appears like you you understand what is OM and why there is Three Shanthi. But how come there is no sign of peace! I don't care if any other religion has such slogans in their religious books. It doesn't make any difference to my belief and faith in the Supreme. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:44:33 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com Do you understand also... what is OM and why is there Three Shanti... Do you know any other religion which has such slogans in their religious books... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:28:20 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Om Shanthi Shanti Shanti hi KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:53:35 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net How many bombs you have thrown.. Ask this to them... Not us... We are reacting.. They are acting... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:19:37 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society....!? We bomb them and they bomb us and we bomb them and they bomb us together we bomb us then who is left to bomb...? KC > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:33:09 +0500 > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > Hi, true, it for too long hindus have been tolerent leading to a sarcastic comment that they are cowards, may be Nehru was coward when India was divided for his greed,may be Krishna menon loved chinese vaginas more than indian ones, but now it is time that hindu understood the value of SAMA, Dana, BHEDHA are over, dandam dashagunam bhaveth. Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: chanchal malviya > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:24 am > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > To: Javed , reader-list at sarai.net > > > It is time for Hindus to rise now... > > And no dicussion or virtual communities can stop it... > > > > Swami Vivekanand said - India have enough of religion.. > > And it is time now to say this to Christian and Muslims who force > > conversions the same thing.. > > If Sanskrit is the mother of all languages, Hinduism is the mother > > of all Religions... (But two religions have in particular always > > learnt to abuse their mother(Hinduism) - Islam and Christianity)... > > It is time now to stop the nation from producing more Kashmirs... > > It is time now to stop the non-Independent Religious India... > > > > So go on my dear friends as much as you like to abuse Hindus.. > > It hardly matters now.. > > > > Ramayan is proving to be a reality, Mahabharat is a reality.. > > History will also change.. > > It is Hindus that have taught peace to the world.. but to do that > > again, the two attackers have to be checked now.. > > People are doing that.. And will do that.. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Javed > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 6:00:16 PM > > Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > India's Islam > > by Arun Nair > > > > Firstly, I must apologise if this article smacks of an impolite > > urgency and prescriptive-ness. I mean not to be arrogant, but as > > someone addressing you on a matter of deep concern to us all, I felt > > that there was little room for ceremonial apologies before every > > sentence. Also, as an Indian middle-class Hindu who grew up in the > > Babri-masjid 90s, it is easy for me to say some of the things I say > > here. > > > > Secondly, I address you, the reader, as an Indian citizen, not as a > > saintly Kabir or Gandhi preaching love for humanity. Our collective > > interests are being threatened by communal forces from within and > > without. WE MUST ACT. We must not merely lament about our respective > > versions of helplessnesses and others' faults. We are free today > > because India's greatest generation shook off the ghosts that > > bedevilled them, and took action to protect our interests. I implore > > you to continue that legacy. > > > > Thirdly, while I will go into what in my opinion are highly plausible > > theories of Indian nationhood and nationalism, my primary aim here is > > not to write any treatise on politics or sociology, but to protect our > > rights to belong equally to India – our common ancestral land – as > > Indians, and as free, dignified humans. > > > > Fourthly, my ideas will be presented largely based on first > > principles, also known as common-sense. > > > > My thesis is this: India must boldly assert its claim on Islamic > > civilisation in the subcontinent. That is the key to end our communal > > woes. > > > > This does not mean that India must become Islamic, or that Indian > > Muslims must be somehow Hinduised. The idea, instead, is to campaign > > relentlessly for India's Islamic civilisational authenticity. > > > > In the Indian psyche, Pakistan stands for Islam. Sadly for us and > > admittedly in a weaker form, Islam is also synonymous with Pakistan > > and everything Pakistani. This wouldn't have been so bad if Pakistan > > wasn't, well, un-Indian. We must use every tool at our disposal as a > > people to destroy the entrenched idea of Pakistani ownership of > > subcontinental Islam from within India. More importantly, this idea > > must be attacked from without it, because that is where it originates. > > > > Our chief weapon to eliminate Islam-Pakistan hyphenation from the > > subcontinent will be an authentic claim: the centre of Islamic > > civilisation in South Asia has always been undivided India, and after > > partition, India is its natural primary heir. The fact that a few > > million Muslims left India during partition to settle in our erstwhile > > outlying provinces doesn't change this. Neither does the fact that the > > Indian people chose a progressive, secular, democratic polity for > > their republic. > > > > In our minds and in the world's view, subcontinental Islam is under > > Pakistani occupation. The historical Indo-centric nature of > > subcontinental Islam should be used to throw off this psychological > > yoke. I urge Indians to rally together once again as our greatest > > generation did to protect our collective interests as the people of > > India. I urge friends of India all over the world to join us. Both in > > terms of geography and spirit, Islam in the subcontinent that > > coexisted and flourished alongside Indic cultures, has always been > > more Indian than Pakistani. If any single country represents > > subcontinental Islam as it historically was, it is India. Not > > Pakistan. > > > > India's Mughals. India's Qutub Minar, Gol Gumaz, and Taj Mahal. > > India's Kabir. India's Tipu Sultan, Shah Jahan, Akbar, and, why not, > > Aurangazeb. India's Urdu. India's Ghalib and Khusro. India's Delhi, > > Lucknow, Mysore, Hyderabad, Malabar, and Agra. > > > > Good history has to be deliberately written > > > > The people of India inherited thousands of years of history and > > associated baggage that we didn't really ask for. > > > > Keep in mind though that history is not a dead object - it is > > unfurling even as you read this. We may not be able to change what > > happened in India 200 years ago. But 200 years from now when people > > look back, they will see the Indian history that our generation wrote. > > It becomes then our duty, both as Indians and as sensible humans, to > > write it well. > > > > It is a great privilege to deliberately be able to write a part of > > something grand like the history of India. The first generation of > > Indians who did a coordinated job of writing our history was the one > > that won us our independence – our "freedom-generation". They could > > have attempted to write their Indian chapter any way they wanted to. > > We could have had a dark, China-style communism, for instance. But, > > given the Indian context, the freedom-generation chose the most > > egalitarian, elegant, and humanist theme they could come up with: a > > secular, liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, that takes its > > strength from its inherent pluralism and its inheritance of one of > > mankind's greatest civilisations. > > > > The freedom-generation's legacy for us is the deliberate and > > intelligent manner in which they forged an Indian national identity. > > Thanks to their efforts, our nationality is a solid concept. An Indian > > from Karnataka has a robust nationalistic bond with Indians say from > > Punjab, Gujarat, Assam, or Delhi. Regardless of what languages we > > speak, we all recognise Marathi, Tamil, Bengali and Telugu as Indian > > languages – ancestral assets that all Indians collectively own. > > > > It is a mistake, however, to think that the nation-building task they > > began is complete. Indian nationalism is not an idea frozen in time, > > but an evolving one. We, the successors of India's freedom-generation, > > must exercise our prerogative to define its finer contours and bring > > in new ideas to enrich it. Furthermore, we have an obligation to both > > our founding fathers and India's posterity to do this while being true > > to our quintessential Indian-ness, the just, egalitarian nature of our > > country as embodied in our constitution. > > > > Given that India's situation is not as pressing as it once was, new > > nationalist leaders – giants of the stature of Mahatma Gandhi, Khan > > Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Subhash Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh, Jawaharlal > > Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad or Vallabhai Patel – may be difficult to > > emerge. There is no need to though. We succeeded them, and we must > > take this task upon ourselves. The freedom-generation watches over us > > in the form of our fraternity as Indians which they moulded at a great > > cost, and our constitution. > > > > Indian Nationalism - the idea of Indian brotherhood > > > > Amidst all this noisy consternation of Taslima Nasrin, Babri-masjid, > > BJP-Congress etc., its easy to lose sight of the really big pictures. > > Consider, for instance, this question: what really is the essence of > > Indian nationalism? Why do we all feel so closely tied to India > > and to > > each other? > > > > My answer is that, to put it simply, without the land we call India, > > Indians either have no identity, or very anaemic identities. All > > Indians share this same curious relation to India. > > When we are born to the same human mother, we are brothers. Our > > constitution formed by our freedom-generation explicitly asserts > > fraternity among the Indian people. Fraternity – brotherhood. In what > > sense are we brothers? > > > > Indians are brothers in the sense that the motherland that birthed my > > identity, also birthed yours. India is our ancestral land, and we > > should be proud of everything associated with it. Everything in India, > > its religions, its good and its bad, its languages, its glories and > > struggles, its rivers, its emperors, its heroes and villains, > > everything – is intricately weaved into our consciousnesses of who we > > are, where we come from, what our place in this world is, and how > > other humans see us. Without that identity, we are crippled. > > > > Ours is no ordinary brotherhood. Indian people didn't come into being > > merely a few centuries ago. We are an ancient civilisation, and what > > we have is a civlisational brotherhood – a bond arising from all of > > our belonging to the civilisation that unfolded in the same land, > > India. That brotherhood was formally declared through the constitution > > in 1949, but it existed much before that. Before our greatest > > generation gave it a concrete wording in the 20th century, it was well > > moulded in the crucible that is our land, in the fire of the previous > > several dozen, if not more, centuries. > > > > Every country of the world has stories that define their national > > essences. What is the most essential feature of Indian > > nationalism? It > > is our Indian identity – our being tied to India, and our > > civilisational brotherhood to each other in being bonded so. All > > Indians, regardless of their religion or language, has this bond with > > India and with each other. > > Indians must pause for a while and think why our anthem's going over > > our landmarks is so emotive. Or why Hindu-Muslim-Sikh-Christian > > insignia are powerful. Or why merely thinking of our history, or our > > Kerala, Karnataka, Maharashtra, UP, Punjab and Bengal moves all of us > > equally. > > > > It's because they remind us of our organic ties to India, and the > > brotherhood that we have with each other. This natural bond given to > > us by our glorious and at times bloody history is important. If we > > don't uphold this bond with the ferocity that our greatest generation > > did, if we don't use it to protect our common interests, our country > > will remain weak. > > > > Our country's nature > > > > What is the nature of our country? What does it mean for something > > to be Indian? > > For one, if all of us Indians could get together today and declare in > > one voice that India stands for certain values, then that would be an > > authoritative statement. India is what Indians say it is. If, say, the > > people of the then-Indian civilisation – Hindus, Muslims, Christians, > > Buddhists, Sikhs, and Jains – had made such a statement 400 years ago > > and preserved its spirit through centuries, that would have probably > > have been one of the greatest Indian texts. > > > > If you will recall, a very similar event actually did happen in 1949, > > when the founding fathers of the Indian republic adopted, enacted, and > > gave to ourselves - the sovereign people of India - our constitution. > > The preamble reads, > > > > "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India > > into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure > > to all its citizens: > > JUSTICE, social, economic and political; > > LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; > > EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among them all > > FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and > > integrity of the Nation. > > IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, > > do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION." > > > > In an absolute sense, the values of justice, liberty, and equality > > have an intuitive appeal to all humans everywhere. However, the > > formidable authority of our constitution comes from the crushed but > > proud people who paid a very high price for our right to live as > > equals and as dignified humans in India. We must take their word for > > what India is – they must have known and dreamt quite a bit about it. > > > > India's greatest generation definitely realised that divisivism, > > self-doubt, and other demons from our past would haunt the republic > > they formed. Which is why the constitution is important. It helps us > > protect our country from ourselves. > > > > The Constitution. Indian Nationalism. How we will defend India. > > > > Those who doubt the moral power of our freedom-generation, our > > constitutional ethos, and Indian nationalism need only look at > > Pakistan, which renounced all these in its attempts not to be seen as > > Indian. Pakistan's leaders, in trying to defend their divisve national > > philosophy, forced the most horrible bankruptcy on its people. > > > > Rather than using Indian nationalism and the constitution to tackle > > our communal issues, I am appalled at the general trend to merely > > lament that India is on its way to being declared an non-secular state > > - the hundreds of millions of Indians fully intent on preventing this > > notwithstanding. > > > > Pakistan-style Islamism, Ummah-isation of Hinduism, alienation of > > Indian Muslims > > > > There are three major trends in India today that are relevant to > > our topic. > > > > Firstly, India has very serious conflicts of interest with Pakistan. > > We have gone to war with that country several times. Its society has > > issues with radicalisation and a general religious orthodoxy. Its > > regimes have relentlessly attacked India's internal fault-lines over > > the past few decades in the name of Islam. Tens of thousands of Indian > > soldiers have died defending our country against them. It is > > distinctly un-Indian and anti-Indian. > > > > Secondly, Hinduism is, for the lack of a better word, Ummah-ising, and > > this at times takes horrifyingly militant forms. I, given my personal > > biases, am all for Hindu solidarity and abolishing pseudo-secularism. > > However, an argument for Hindu-solidarity should not be allowed to > > take the form of an un-Indian religionalism that goes against the very > > spirit of India. > > > > Thirdly, Indian Muslims feel alienated from their own country. In > > India, Pakistan is synonymous with Islam. Unfortunately, Islam is also > > weakly synonymous with Pakistan. This has significantly undermined > > Indian Muslims' political standing in India vis-a-vis their fellow > > citizens. > > > > The havoc all this has wreaked on our society must not be ignored. > > India was home to one of humanity's greatest Islamic cultures for well > > over 1000 years. It is not, by any means, a dead part of our > > culture - > > nearly 160 million Indians are Muslims, several national icons are > > Muslims, mosques and Islamic architecture litter the country, and > > Muslim holidays are shared by all. And yet, to a lot of Indians, Islam > > doesn't feel Indian, but Pakistani. Despite their respective religious > > majorities, it is odd that Buddhism doesn't feel Sri Lankan, or > > Hinduism itself, Nepali. > > > > The partition of India and secular India's deprivation of its Islamic > > authenticity > > > > Has anyone thought what has actually happened here? Why is it that in > > India, an ancient civilisational land which has a unique Islamic > > culture just like Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, Islam is seen as somehow > > foreign? That is not because of Islam's being inconsistent with India > > – 1000 years and more of history and our combined freedom struggle > > should have proven this by now. > > > > During partition, founders of Pakistan expropriated the subcontinent's > > Islamic identity for defining their nation, Pakistan. Pakistan's > > struggle to keep its ideology alive has robbed us of our Islamic > > authenticity. India's secular nature not-withstanding, the ardour with > > which Pakistan argued itsideology and pushed its exclusivist national > > philosophy within the larger Islamic community ensured that it gained > > some traction in the Indian society. Pakistan's military conflicts > > with "Hindu" India only amplified this. > > > > It only takes a few of decades of intense activity for a new Zeitgeist > > to take root in a society. Consider denazification of Germany, China's > > turn into capitalism, and India's own economic liberalisation. 30 > > years – that is all it takes for a young generation to grow up shaped > > by a pervasive ideology. > > > > Though quite smaller than India, Pakistan is by no means a tiny > > nation. It is the world's 6th most populous country, one of its major > > economies, and a prominent player during the cold war. One cannot find > > fault with it - Pakistan had to defend its national philosophy. It has > > expended a tremendous amount of national effort over the last 60 years > > in achieving a strong association between subcontinental Islam and > > itself. > > > > They have succeeded splendidly. Islam in the subcontinent today is > > seen as prominently Pakistani and India's secular fabric warped by > > that perception. Pakistan is an Islamic nation - this somehow gives > > them a stronger claim on everything Islamic in the subcontinent. The > > world simply does not recognise India's Islamic authenticity, and > > neither do many Indians within. India continues to be associated > > primarily with Hinduism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, but not Islam. > > > > Does religious brotherhood entirely negate the organic bonds a human > > has to his ancestral land and its history, and to his fellow humans > > who share the same bonds as him? I don't really know. What I do know > > is that this is not the principle on which the Indian republic was > > founded, and its definitely not an Indian value. Religious supremacism > > and breaking up of Indian people are un-Indian philosophies. It goes > > against the very spirit of our freedom struggle, nationalism, and our > > constitution. > > > > Indians must remember that new Pakistani generations do not even have > > the same right to speak for India's Muslims that their earlier > > generations might have had. Indian democracy has proven this > > unnecessary anyway. > > > > Indo-Pak culture-drift and attempts at an unnatural bonhomie > > > > There is a delusion among the political class and Indian people that > > our shared past can be used to achieve friendly relations between > > India and Pakistan. My view is that in doing so, we are only > > reinforcing the internal Islam-Pakistan hyphenation. > > > > When historical developments asunder a people, over a period of time > > the newly formed groups drift increasingly farther from one another. > > Once upon time, Myanmar and Sri Lanka were part of India, just like > > Pakistan and Bangladesh. Afghanistan was part of several Indian > > empires. Today, though at a national level we have very cordial > > relations, they are distinctly unfamiliar to us. > > > > Such a natural drift has definitely taken place between India and > > Pakistan. The strongest bond between us that keeps us in each others' > > national memories is not anything positive that we share, but the > > acrid legacy of partition. It's hard for me as an Indian, for > > instance, to imagine such an Islamism taking hold of Pakistan if it > > were under Akbar's rule. That is, if it were under genuinely > > Indian-style Islamic rule. > > > > I am not suggesting we should actively pursue enmity with Pakistan or > > vilify it. However, its being clumped together with Indian Muslims is > > simply not healthy for India. What has Pakistan's 'leadership' of > > subcontinental Muslims, its advocacy of religious supremacism within, > > and its enmity with India effectively accomplished? It has robbed > > India of its genuine Islamic authenticity in the world's eyes, and > > caused non-Muslim Indians to reject the culture of an un-Indian enemy. > > Pakistan has highlighted Indian Muslims' being Islamic and > =3E consistently de-emphasized their being Indian. > > > > Pursuing an unnatural bonhomie with Pakistan and stressing our > > similarities with them will only weaken our case for our differences, > > which are very real. To uphold our national interest, we must assert > > and amplify these differences. > > > > Replace Islam-Pakistan hyphenation with Islam-India hyphenation in the > > subcontinent > > > > I urge Indians to spearhead a change of perception of Islam in the > > subcontinent. Anything that prevents Indian Muslims' fully asserting > > their claim on India as Indian citizens is against the national > > interest. The strong association in India between subcontinental Islam > > and the present day un-Indian Pakistan must go. > > > > It is tempting to claim that all South Asian countries share Islamic > > civilization equally. It may be polite and civil to do so, and it may > > even have some historical merit, but it's a weak claim for our > > purposes. It doesn't have the necessary boldness and self-conviction > > to be effective. It also doesn't forcefully argue for India's Islamic > > authenticity. Our aim is to end Islam-Pakistan hyphenation for the > > welfare of a billion humans, not to be fair observers of history. We > > must hence push the strongest nationalistic claim possible: Islam in > > the subcontinent is Indian, and it always has been. > > > > Indian Islam never 'went' anywhere – it is alive and well amidst us. > > Our nationalism and constitution are guarantees that it will > > thrive if > > Pakistan would let go of it. When the world thinks of Hinduism in > > South Asia, it thinks of India. Sikhism, it thinks of India. Buddhism, > > India. When it thinks of Islam in South Asia, it must think of India. > > Everyone in the subcontinent will be better off. Everyone. > > > > The idea that Islam in the subcontinent is primarily Indian can gain > > currency only through a concerted nationalist campaign. No apologies > > should be made for such a movement. No one need be convinced of its > > proponents' "patriotism". The obvious worthiness of the cause, its > > truth, and its urgency are justifications enough. > > > > What ideas might such a campaign seek to make current? > > > > The countries in our region share an intertwined, messy history. We > > have a lot in common - languages, religions, culture, quirks - all > > part of our common and colourful heritage. > > > > However, if our historical and religious assets must be divided > > amongst us, then the worthiest inheritor of Islamic heritage in the > > subcontinent can only be India. Not Pakistan, not Bangladesh, not Sri > > Lanka, not Myanmar, not Nepal. India is the only nation that has been > > true to the historical spirit of Indian Islam – that of flourishing > > alongside other Indic faiths in India. > > > > Slay our demons ourselves > > > > Has it ever struck you that in our country, we have a vicious > > circularity of the following sort: we feel dismayed that the > > country/political class/leadership has done nothing for us; a form of > > apathy and resignation sets in; the country/political class/leadership > > continues to do nothing; we feel increasingly more dismayed. > > > > We are a democracy. We individually must act. Things won't happen > > if we don't. > > I urge Indians to assert India's secularism and nationalism to fight > > alienation of the Muslim community from Indian mainstream. This battle > > is the easier one to win – there are hundreds of millions of > > reasonable Indians, the Indian constitution, the liberal press, the > > legacy of our freedom-generation, and truth and justice on our side. > > > > I also urge Indians to fight Pakistani supremacy of subcontinental > > Islam from the outside. That is the root of all our problems. That is > > the key battle in India's war against communalism. We must learn to > > say, "Thanks, but no thanks. I understand what you mean, but this is > > not really true" to anyone who stresses commonalities of any sort in > > the subcontinent. > > > > Who will go first? > > > > Based on the concept of ownership of our destiny, what are the answers > > to these questions: > > > > "But how can non-Muslims claim that Islam in the subcontinent is > > Indian when it is represented by Pakistan and Indian Muslims > > themselves imply so?" > > > > "How can Indian Muslims make the Indo-centric claim when there is a > > genuine sense of their alienation in India and rest of Indian society > > accuses them of siding with Pakistan. We cannot move against Pakstani > > Muslims. There is a lot in common between us." > > > > I don't know! I am definitely going, in my own way. That I know. I > > will not ever treat any Indian by as automatically allied with a > > foreign, inimical power. I will continue making people aware of the > > need to end the subcontinental Islam-Pakistan association and replace > > it with Islam-India. > > > > We shall NOT vilify. We shall have faith. > > > > Indians should stop vilifying each other. Not because it would be > > saintly to do so, but because it only weakens our unity. > > > > Our nationalism and our constitution are solid stuff. Our greatest > > generation did their job well. If we must challenge our fellow > > Indians, invoke these instruments. Face with stead-fast stoicism any > > slurs, any accusations of you being an anti-Indian Muslim or a > > communal Hindutvawadi. Let the diatribe die down. Repeat your > > arguments invoking our nationalism, constitution, and your reasoning > > again. Do not ask anyone to 'prove' his or her patriotism. It's > > demeaning to do so. > > > > Satyameva Jayate – truth alone triumphs. If you are right, you will > > win. Have faith in our country and in every Indians' goodness and > > genuine attachment to their land. > > > > Augmenting India's ideological basis > > > > Earlier I mentioned that our work on Indian nationhood is not a frozen > > process, but a continuing one. We can and must correct any earlier > > mistakes that continue to torment India's communal harmony. > > > > If the greatest challenge the freedom-generation faced was ending the > > British rule and forming a stable republic, the greatest challenge > > before us is to take back leadership of subcontinental Islam from > > Pakistan. Our challenge is to do this without sacrificing India's > > secular nature. > > > > To tackle our new communal challenges in the 21st century, I propose > > the following: > > 1. Secularism will continue to remain the Indian union's lynch > > pin. It > > should not, however, require any particular religious group's giving > > up their right to assert religious solidarity. We should genuinely > > address any concerns about hypocrisy in the name of secularism. > > > > 2. India is a mature concept, and we should actively use it to tackle > > the challenges before us. Secularism is an integral part of our > > nationhood and a historically irreversible development. It follows > > that religionalism – wherever it is practised – is distinctly > > un-Indian. Within India, it is also anti-Indian in the sense that they > > weaken India and goes against its spirit. > > > > 3. The natural heir to Islamic civilisation in the subcontinent is > > India. Subcontinental Islam has always been an Indian phenomenon. > > Pakistan's oft-reinforced association with Indian Muslims must be > > destroyed. > > > > 4. India's brotherhood with its neighbours is dying. Soon there will > > be an Indian generation which doesn't have a single Indian born before > > partition. Every single human in the subcontinent would have been born > > in the countries as they existed after partition. The continuing > > attempts to maintain an unnatural bonhomie with India's hostile > > neighbours is not a tenable project - Pakistan has moved too far away > > from what was once India. > > > > Indian Muslims. India's Islam. > > > > A shockingly large amount of our national energy is wasted in > > countering the effects of Islam-Pakistan hyphenation in the > > subcontinent. > > > > The solution is simple. Reclaim the part of Indian identity that was > > robbed of us some 60 years back. If India is Hindu, then for similar > > reasons, it is also Buddhist, Sikh, Christian - and Islamic. Purported > > authority over sub-continental Islam by other entities in the > > subcontinent is an outrageous farce that must be ended right away. > > > > There is no obligation to do this meekly. India doesn't have > > merely a > > substantial claim or merely an equal claim. It simply has more right > > to subcontinental Islamic heritage than anyone else by an > > overwhelmingly large margin, period. We must use it for our national > > well-being. > > > > Who can assert subcontinental Islam's Indian nature boldly, loudly, > > without an iota of self-doubt or hesitation? Who needs this to be done > > most urgently? Who suffers from a deprivation of their right to belong > > to India the most? The Hindus? Sikhs? Buddhists? Christians? Jains? > > Clearly not. Who else? > > > > The Indian Muslims. The others are left distinctly poorer and their > > country's communal harmony stressed, but their Indian genuineness is > > unquestioned within India and the world over. There is not going > > to be > > an un-Indian leader-nation for India's Sikhs, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists > > and Christians in our neighbourhood any time soon. > > > > http://indianmuslims.in/indias-islam/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > Find them fast with Yahoo! 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Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Mon Jan 21 12:10:56 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:40:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome Message-ID: <987237.20281.qm@web90410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Supreme has not chosen me alone... I am just a small drop which adds up to form the Ocean... and the Ocean is again in the way of formation... There are rivers which are trying to intrude and disturb the serenity of Ocean... But time will take care of that... You will not understand.. Read again and again Bhagwad Geeta... Arujna fought a war (the greatest known to mankind) after getting preached from Lord Krishna... he did not give away like you.... Nationalism is in protection of our nation, be that then be Kashmir... What if some disease has hit a part of our body.. We need to fight to make it healthy again... We cannot cut it away... We cannot escape from it... Hinduism is all Humanity (Supreme court has also said this)... and anyone talking Hinduism is actually talking Humanity... So Hindus must talk Hinduism first... For it is Hindus because of whom the nation is still holding itself... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:42:49 AM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome Glad to know that the supreme being has chosen you to save the nation Every religious fundamentalist believes that he is the chosen one and his religion is the only path May the god bless you Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:20:59 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com You are not to decide the right path... You are not among ones who can save the nation... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:43:30 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome You are the best human I've ever come across. I can feel your energy,very vinrant, unfortunately it has not found the right path God bless you Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:37:00 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com You first sacrifice your house to a Muslim.. And then we will think about Kashmir... You are an Idiot... and an Anti-National... Absolutely no doubt.. People like you will create many Kashmirs.. and get every Hindu killed... It is better you convert... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:37:51 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome I'v no problem accepting Kashmir as a country, why not the Govt. accept it? why should we sacrifice our soldiers there? How much resources we have wasted on Kashmir all these years? how many people we'v got killed? Is there any meaning to it. Isn't it stupid- instead of holding what is with us tight, we focused a lot on Kashmir and allowed the fire to spread to other regions. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:47:47 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com Yes.. I mean it... Because Kashmir is virtually a country now.. It is army of India that is still holding it.. And Muslims don't want that.. This is the reason, you find so much of Muslims shouting on Army.. This is the truth... Accept or Reject is your choice... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:10:18 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome I can start quoting dates with killingcounts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... Correct yourself please... You'v said countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and KASHMIR....! > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:21:53 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com; kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > Don't mislead... > The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to India (all HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India... (I will get the Video uploaded on UTube on this, as this was shown by an external news channel)... and you say, women are raped in India.. > > You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of having more than one wife.. there is no freedom to women to report rapes... who will show what happens in your community... The Quran says them all... and I have all senteces of Quran right with me.... Believe me, all awaken Hindus are now reading Quran... they all know what is there in that book... > So, Muslims cannot fool the world any more that Quran teaches Peace... and Islam is a peaceful religion... > > Modi is a simple indication, what Hindus are now thinking... It is Muslims who have to think now... they have created this world a land of havoc... Everywhere they are simply engaged in Killing.... > They even kill each other, as in Iraq and now in Pakistan... And they are seriously killing Hindus like anything.... If this is again refuted... I can start quoting dates with killing counts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... > > I don't know, what is in their head.... How do they get so easily terrorised... What do they get in believing that killign an Idolator is a work of God... It is stupid... and yet they all are keeping this faith in their head.... > they all are not engaged in killing, but they all are engaged in supporting this act... > Quran says, forgive the Idolators only if they accept Islam... and Quran says this right from second Surah to the last one... > > Why? Our religion don't teach about this variance at all... Geeta teaches how to unite, how to live with respective with each other, how to love, how to perform duty... Why can't you teach peace... > > Why can't you understand that Nature has created every creature (of all species) unique and different.. Nature has produced variance so that creatures can live with respect to each other... A specie is not naturally allowed to kill the same specie.. except for humans.. where humans are killing humans... > > Let India live with its heritage of Hindutva... Thousands of years of killing and enforcement have failed to eliminate Hindus... Another thousand will also fail... Because nature will keep the variance alive... But the attempt of Islam and christianity would only produce killing of innocent people... > > Hindus would kill muslims only during riots or war... But Muslim would kill always for religious reasons... > Please stop talking all these things.. > Please talk peace... > Please talk how to proliferate the nation.. > Please suggest how to remove the Quranic Islam and produce Indian Islam... > Please stop attacking Hindus, Modi and Army... > Please, please, please.... > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Zainab Bawa > To: Kshmendra Kaul ; sarai list > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 3:42:08 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > Dear Kshmendra and all your supporters and back slappers, > > You can easily pinpoint Oishik for his outburst of anger and frustration and > then state that because he (mis)directed his anger at Vedavati and company, > he has no right to talk about the abuse of Manipuri women at the hands of > the Indian state appointed soldiers there. How about for a moment > questioning Lady Chanchal and her remarks and for once again coming back to > the issue that Oishik has tried to raise - the rape of women at the hands of > state appointed army and the manifestations of the state's violence at > women? > > Chanchal diverted the topic by once again going back to her pet peeve of > Islam and Muslim and her hang ups of some frozen history that she loves to > imagine. I pointed out to her that it has nothing to do with Hindu-Muslim > populations and Hindu-Muslim army soldiers but a larger question and concern > about women being direct targets of state violence (with that state violence > and injustice also being responsible for the rise of all kinds of other > movements to combat it). I then pointed to Chanchal how I have also been > eve-teased in Srinagar by soldiers. No, they did not come to ask me whether > I was Hindu or Muslim but made lewd remarks simply because I was woman and > bear breasts and bosom on my person. I also want to clarify that it not > about the soldiers themselves, but about the institutions and the systems > that get perpetrated within the structure of the conflict and occupation of > space. Chanchal immediately retorted saying that because I happen to be > "Muslim", I am likely to complain about being eve teased. *What kind of a > patriarchal and discriminatory remark is this?* This does not come to your > attention but Oishik's suggestion of anal stimulation immediately strikes > you and you make claims about the mothers and sisters of the world. You > don't recognize that we have turned this into a battle of whose position is > right and backslapping. In our egostical positions and pride and victimized > states, as Gowhar and others have rightly pointed out, we fail to see who > suffers - children who are beaten by the army, women who are serially raped > and butchered, men whose psyches have been muted by the violences, families > that continue to suffer the losses of their loved ones, etc. and this is not > restricted to Kashmir, but to violence all over the world. But perhaps, you > would brush this aside by exclaiming that these are standard complaints of > Muslims. And then you cleverly subvert every issue, incidence and event to > Kashmir and to Muslims. Clever you! > > On this note, having personally known Oishik, I vouch for him as a very > sincere, honest and well-meaning person. One remark of anger and frustration > does not define a person's overall political commitments and thoughts. And > this would apply to my not boxing either of you as good or bad people on the > basis of your positions. > > Best, > > Zainab > > *P.S. Any immediate retort/s to this email will be and ought to be > categorically ignored. * > > > On Jan 20, 2008 3:05 PM, wrote: > > > Well said, with lal salaaam. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:48 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > To: sarai list > > > > > Oishik > > > > > > 1. Thank you for the suggestion directed to me. It does not > > > interest me. I too have some suggestions for you. > > > > > > 2. You seem to be obsessed with what you have experienced and > > > suggested. You see a lot of merit in it. > > > > > > 3. Charitable soul that you are, you must have promoted it to > > > your circle of family and friends. > > > > > > 4. OISHIT, since there might be others of your kind who might > > > not find your suggestions/language obscene and crude, you must > > > convince them about it. You must provide references for them on > > > the efficacy of your suggestion. > > > > > > 5. So OISHIT, I presume we will get testimonials from your > > > mother, sisters (if any), daughters (if any) and others to whom > > > you must have recommended the stimulation. They certainly would > > > have respected your suggestion. Maybe you even helped them in the > > > processes in the course of convincing them that your suggestion on > > > means to experience pleasure is not abuse. You must mention the > > > role played by you. > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > > > Kshmendra: > > > > > > That was not meant to be an abuse at all... it was meant to > > > suggest a means to experience anal stimulation that can be > > > orgasmic... I have tried it... so suggested that Vedavati do the > > > same... you could also do the same... actually all the HINDUS who > > > are obsessing about nationalism on this listserv should do the > > > same... they'll realise that there are better and more enjoyable -- > > > and of course more useful things in life to do than spew virulent > > > intolerance. Suggesting means to experience pleasure is not abuse, > > > I'm sure you'll agree. > > > > > > And I am overwhelmed with the kind of response my comments have > > > attracted -- that's the way to keep the Hindu bullshitters engaged > > > I can clearly see. > > > > > > If you find this mail to be crude and obscene as well -- I > > > would've made my point. > > > > > > Cheers... > > > > > > Oishik > > > > > > On Jan 19, 2008 3:16 AM, Kshmendra Kaul > > > wrote: > > > It is ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to > > > the notice of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against > > > abuse directed at them. > > > > > > Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI) > > > was the one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and > > > obscene manner. > > > > > > Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would > > > have to say to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights" > > > (sic). > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > > Try it now. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > > Room 016 B > > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > > > 416.876.7926 > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > > Try it now. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Fly HYD-BLR for Rs.499 Log on to MakeMyTrip! Check it out! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. It's about getting married. Click here! Try it! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Mon Jan 21 12:20:19 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:50:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? Message-ID: <144261.98551.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I dont know how you understand 'Maya'... Your words let me feel that you think Maya is Illusion... You are very preliminary in its understanding man.... To brief in one line it goes as... Maya is Trigun (Sattva, Rajas and Tamas)... and it is these three attributes of nature that is eneveloping the creatures... and the holder of these attributes is termed as Maya.. English word Illusion cannot describe it... So, the duty is to attain the Sattva and even beyond... as Sattva is also not free from attainment of results.. recoprocal (action and reaction) are attribute of all three attribute of Maya and that is the rule of Maya... So please understand again the book... And be dutiful... you cannot say what is future.. but you must say what is right and wrong and what is your duty... You must do it.. And your first duty is to protect the nation from the hands of Abusers... Nation is your mother, and you may allow your mothers's abuse.. I cannot... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:54:30 AM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? Dear Chanchal, Lord krishna has preached so many things. He also wanted the world to understand what MAYA is all about. If a Hindu scholar who has digested thousands of holy books and still doesn't understand the meaning of MAYA. What can poor Krishna do...!? KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:24:35 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; pawan.durani at gmail.com; asitredsalute at gmail.com CC: reader-list at sarai.net You are absolutely correct now Mr. Krishna.. Kashmir was never a Hindu region... It was only before Mughal invasion.. And I don't understand... Do you know what Lord Krishna has preached in Geeta... What he himself did... You don't understand the depth of your own name.. Give me chance and I will let you know (If you are not a dummy Hindu here)... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: Pawan Durani ; Asit asitreds Cc: reader-list Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 11:55:35 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? "It is a historical fact that Kashmir has been intolerant towards hindus since last almost 1000 years and there have been more than 8 major exodus ofKashmiri pandits ". Does that mean that Kashmir was never a Hindu Country...!? What are you saying Pawan? KC > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:43:38 +0530 > From: pawan.durani at gmail.com > To: asitredsalute at gmail.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > Dear Mr Asit , > > I just wanted to clarify that the word Kashmiriat was used very cleaverly by > Kashmiri Muslim leaders to hide the atrocities on Kashmiri Hindus. > > It is a historical fact that Kashmir has been intolerant towards hindus > since last almost 1000 years and there have been more than 8 major exodus of > Kashmiri pandits . > > Regards > > Pawan Durani > > > On 1/20/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > > > lets not communalise the kashmir scene with talking about pandits and > > muslims what is imporatnt is kasmiriyat ant the national liberation of > > kashmir it is a occcupied territory of both pakistan and india we make a > > big > > scene about pandits what about thousands of kasmiri youth killed by the > > indian army the tortures the rapes and the natinal indignination of kasmir > > its not a question of hindus or muslims but the colonisation of kasmir by > > india and pakistan > > > > asit > > > > > > On 1/20/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > > > > > Same is the case when Theesta and the likes with "secular" media claim > > > "thousands of " muslims bucthered in Gujarath, but who bothers about > > truth > > > when one can get saudi riyals to defend the traitors of the nation with > > > highly paid "criminal" lawyers. ? > > > In riot both hindus and muslims loose their beloved, many lives are > > lost, > > > but this has origin in creating the Pakistan and then not encouraging > > the > > > indian muslims to go the land and nation they created for faith, after > > > promising to live in India like brothers to their society. ? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Wali Arifi > > > Date: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:58 pm > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > To: reader-list > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many > > > > lessons. One > > > > being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate figures when > > > > it comes to > > > > human loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the loss. In > > > > fact accuracy > > > > adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. In essence > > > > multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to take refuge in > > > > propagandaand cloth the truth with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mr Durrani in his post has said: "….for killing of more than 3000 > > > > Kashmiripandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this > > > > community." > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What is Mr Durrani > > > > trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of killings? > > > > Is he > > > > helping the community by exaggerating the figure? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri > > > > pandits were > > > > killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has to be understood that multiplying figures is dangerously > > > > counterproductive for those who call themselves as the champions and > > > > custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget about the > > > > use of > > > > words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing and so on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kashmir's history will be written by those who have dreamed of a 'just > > > > Kashmir'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or trying > > > > to create > > > > it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into what it has > > > > actuallybeen in all practice... **Majoritarianism. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Wali > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > list > > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Fly HYD-BLR for Rs.499 Log on to MakeMyTrip! Check it out! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From tulunadu at hotmail.com Mon Jan 21 12:21:51 2008 From: tulunadu at hotmail.com (Krishna Chaithanya) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:21:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. In-Reply-To: <19393.87252.qm@web90413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <19393.87252.qm@web90413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Are baba, Who is this 'you' and who is this 'I' who am 'I' to differentiate between what is Dharma and What is Adharma, it is already differentiated. Don't be sorry... it is understandable that in this material world any scholar would get lost. Action is living Dharma and doing Karma. When a society forgets that, to remind them invaders come. And if the invaded do not realise why they are invaded get back to theuir Dharma and Karma, they will be dominated for thousands of years. History of the world is that. Are you claiming that you are lord Krishna and therefore talking of creating Arjuna....? I would say blasphemy! KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:37:00 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net After reading Bhagwad Geeta, if you are not able to differentiate between what is Dhrama and what is Adharma... What is Sattvika and what is Tamasika... I am sorry... Bhagwad Geeta is not a a book for those who have given up action... It is for those who knows what is duty (not religion for Dharma means duty in Hinduism and not Religion, unlike all other religion).... And now when Adharma is coming on top of Dharma, it is now time to create Arjuna, who can understand Geeta and perform action in protection of Dharma... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:48:27 AM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Dear Chanchal, Who is this 'You' that you mention. Am I not you...? are you not me...? who is the thinker...? Mantra is not for thinking it is for feeling... experiencing. May be you should read Sri Mad Bagavadgeeta again. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:22:05 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net You are a selfish person... Realizing Shanti only for you... The mantra is far deep than you can even think... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: reader-list at sarai.net; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:37:06 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. What I know can not be expressed in words. I feel peace within me when I Chant OM SHANTHI SHANTHI SHANTHI. It appears like you you understand what is OM and why there is Three Shanthi. But how come there is no sign of peace! I don't care if any other religion has such slogans in their religious books. It doesn't make any difference to my belief and faith in the Supreme. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:44:33 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com Do you understand also... what is OM and why is there Three Shanti... Do you know any other religion which has such slogans in their religious books... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:28:20 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Om Shanthi Shanti Shanti hi KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:53:35 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net How many bombs you have thrown.. Ask this to them... Not us... We are reacting.. They are acting... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:19:37 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society....!? We bomb them and they bomb us and we bomb them and they bomb us together we bomb us then who is left to bomb...? KC > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:33:09 +0500 > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > Hi, true, it for too long hindus have been tolerent leading to a sarcastic comment that they are cowards, may be Nehru was coward when India was divided for his greed,may be Krishna menon loved chinese vaginas more than indian ones, but now it is time that hindu understood the value of SAMA, Dana, BHEDHA are over, dandam dashagunam bhaveth. Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: chanchal malviya > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:24 am > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > To: Javed , reader-list at sarai.net > > > It is time for Hindus to rise now... > > And no dicussion or virtual communities can stop it... > > > > Swami Vivekanand said - India have enough of religion.. > > And it is time now to say this to Christian and Muslims who force > > conversions the same thing.. > > If Sanskrit is the mother of all languages, Hinduism is the mother > > of all Religions... (But two religions have in particular always > > learnt to abuse their mother(Hinduism) - Islam and Christianity)... > > It is time now to stop the nation from producing more Kashmirs... > > It is time now to stop the non-Independent Religious India... > > > > So go on my dear friends as much as you like to abuse Hindus.. > > It hardly matters now.. > > > > Ramayan is proving to be a reality, Mahabharat is a reality.. > > History will also change.. > > It is Hindus that have taught peace to the world.. but to do that > > again, the two attackers have to be checked now.. > > People are doing that.. And will do that.. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Javed > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 6:00:16 PM > > Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > India's Islam > > by Arun Nair > > > > Firstly, I must apologise if this article smacks of an impolite > > urgency and prescriptive-ness. I mean not to be arrogant, but as > > someone addressing you on a matter of deep concern to us all, I felt > > that there was little room for ceremonial apologies before every > > sentence. Also, as an Indian middle-class Hindu who grew up in the > > Babri-masjid 90s, it is easy for me to say some of the things I say > > here. > > > > Secondly, I address you, the reader, as an Indian citizen, not as a > > saintly Kabir or Gandhi preaching love for humanity. Our collective > > interests are being threatened by communal forces from within and > > without. WE MUST ACT. We must not merely lament about our respective > > versions of helplessnesses and others' faults. We are free today > > because India's greatest generation shook off the ghosts that > > bedevilled them, and took action to protect our interests. I implore > > you to continue that legacy. > > > > Thirdly, while I will go into what in my opinion are highly plausible > > theories of Indian nationhood and nationalism, my primary aim here is > > not to write any treatise on politics or sociology, but to protect our > > rights to belong equally to India – our common ancestral land – as > > Indians, and as free, dignified humans. > > > > Fourthly, my ideas will be presented largely based on first > > principles, also known as common-sense. > > > > My thesis is this: India must boldly assert its claim on Islamic > > civilisation in the subcontinent. That is the key to end our communal > > woes. > > > > This does not mean that India must become Islamic, or that Indian > > Muslims must be somehow Hinduised. The idea, instead, is to campaign > > relentlessly for India's Islamic civilisational authenticity. > > > > In the Indian psyche, Pakistan stands for Islam. Sadly for us and > > admittedly in a weaker form, Islam is also synonymous with Pakistan > > and everything Pakistani. This wouldn't have been so bad if Pakistan > > wasn't, well, un-Indian. We must use every tool at our disposal as a > > people to destroy the entrenched idea of Pakistani ownership of > > subcontinental Islam from within India. More importantly, this idea > > must be attacked from without it, because that is where it originates. > > > > Our chief weapon to eliminate Islam-Pakistan hyphenation from the > > subcontinent will be an authentic claim: the centre of Islamic > > civilisation in South Asia has always been undivided India, and after > > partition, India is its natural primary heir. The fact that a few > > million Muslims left India during partition to settle in our erstwhile > > outlying provinces doesn't change this. Neither does the fact that the > > Indian people chose a progressive, secular, democratic polity for > > their republic. > > > > In our minds and in the world's view, subcontinental Islam is under > > Pakistani occupation. The historical Indo-centric nature of > > subcontinental Islam should be used to throw off this psychological > > yoke. I urge Indians to rally together once again as our greatest > > generation did to protect our collective interests as the people of > > India. I urge friends of India all over the world to join us. Both in > > terms of geography and spirit, Islam in the subcontinent that > > coexisted and flourished alongside Indic cultures, has always been > > more Indian than Pakistani. If any single country represents > > subcontinental Islam as it historically was, it is India. Not > > Pakistan. > > > > India's Mughals. India's Qutub Minar, Gol Gumaz, and Taj Mahal. > > India's Kabir. India's Tipu Sultan, Shah Jahan, Akbar, and, why not, > > Aurangazeb. India's Urdu. India's Ghalib and Khusro. India's Delhi, > > Lucknow, Mysore, Hyderabad, Malabar, and Agra. > > > > Good history has to be deliberately written > > > > The people of India inherited thousands of years of history and > > associated baggage that we didn't really ask for. > > > > Keep in mind though that history is not a dead object - it is > > unfurling even as you read this. We may not be able to change what > > happened in India 200 years ago. But 200 years from now when people > > look back, they will see the Indian history that our generation wrote. > > It becomes then our duty, both as Indians and as sensible humans, to > > write it well. > > > > It is a great privilege to deliberately be able to write a part of > > something grand like the history of India. The first generation of > > Indians who did a coordinated job of writing our history was the one > > that won us our independence – our "freedom-generation". They could > > have attempted to write their Indian chapter any way they wanted to. > > We could have had a dark, China-style communism, for instance. But, > > given the Indian context, the freedom-generation chose the most > > egalitarian, elegant, and humanist theme they could come up with: a > > secular, liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, that takes its > > strength from its inherent pluralism and its inheritance of one of > > mankind's greatest civilisations. > > > > The freedom-generation's legacy for us is the deliberate and > > intelligent manner in which they forged an Indian national identity. > > Thanks to their efforts, our nationality is a solid concept. An Indian > > from Karnataka has a robust nationalistic bond with Indians say from > > Punjab, Gujarat, Assam, or Delhi. Regardless of what languages we > > speak, we all recognise Marathi, Tamil, Bengali and Telugu as Indian > > languages – ancestral assets that all Indians collectively own. > > > > It is a mistake, however, to think that the nation-building task they > > began is complete. Indian nationalism is not an idea frozen in time, > > but an evolving one. We, the successors of India's freedom-generation, > > must exercise our prerogative to define its finer contours and bring > > in new ideas to enrich it. Furthermore, we have an obligation to both > > our founding fathers and India's posterity to do this while being true > > to our quintessential Indian-ness, the just, egalitarian nature of our > > country as embodied in our constitution. > > > > Given that India's situation is not as pressing as it once was, new > > nationalist leaders – giants of the stature of Mahatma Gandhi, Khan > > Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Subhash Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh, Jawaharlal > > Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad or Vallabhai Patel – may be difficult to > > emerge. There is no need to though. We succeeded them, and we must > > take this task upon ourselves. The freedom-generation watches over us > > in the form of our fraternity as Indians which they moulded at a great > > cost, and our constitution. > > > > Indian Nationalism - the idea of Indian brotherhood > > > > Amidst all this noisy consternation of Taslima Nasrin, Babri-masjid, > > BJP-Congress etc., its easy to lose sight of the really big pictures. > > Consider, for instance, this question: what really is the essence of > > Indian nationalism? Why do we all feel so closely tied to India > > and to > > each other? > > > > My answer is that, to put it simply, without the land we call India, > > Indians either have no identity, or very anaemic identities. All > > Indians share this same curious relation to India. > > When we are born to the same human mother, we are brothers. Our > > constitution formed by our freedom-generation explicitly asserts > > fraternity among the Indian people. Fraternity – brotherhood. In what > > sense are we brothers? > > > > Indians are brothers in the sense that the motherland that birthed my > > identity, also birthed yours. India is our ancestral land, and we > > should be proud of everything associated with it. Everything in India, > > its religions, its good and its bad, its languages, its glories and > > struggles, its rivers, its emperors, its heroes and villains, > > everything – is intricately weaved into our consciousnesses of who we > > are, where we come from, what our place in this world is, and how > > other humans see us. Without that identity, we are crippled. > > > > Ours is no ordinary brotherhood. Indian people didn't come into being > > merely a few centuries ago. We are an ancient civilisation, and what > > we have is a civlisational brotherhood – a bond arising from all of > > our belonging to the civilisation that unfolded in the same land, > > India. That brotherhood was formally declared through the constitution > > in 1949, but it existed much before that. Before our greatest > > generation gave it a concrete wording in the 20th century, it was well > > moulded in the crucible that is our land, in the fire of the previous > > several dozen, if not more, centuries. > > > > Every country of the world has stories that define their national > > essences. What is the most essential feature of Indian > > nationalism? It > > is our Indian identity – our being tied to India, and our > > civilisational brotherhood to each other in being bonded so. All > > Indians, regardless of their religion or language, has this bond with > > India and with each other. > > Indians must pause for a while and think why our anthem's going over > > our landmarks is so emotive. Or why Hindu-Muslim-Sikh-Christian > > insignia are powerful. Or why merely thinking of our history, or our > > Kerala, Karnataka, Maharashtra, UP, Punjab and Bengal moves all of us > > equally. > > > > It's because they remind us of our organic ties to India, and the > > brotherhood that we have with each other. This natural bond given to > > us by our glorious and at times bloody history is important. If we > > don't uphold this bond with the ferocity that our greatest generation > > did, if we don't use it to protect our common interests, our country > > will remain weak. > > > > Our country's nature > > > > What is the nature of our country? What does it mean for something > > to be Indian? > > For one, if all of us Indians could get together today and declare in > > one voice that India stands for certain values, then that would be an > > authoritative statement. India is what Indians say it is. If, say, the > > people of the then-Indian civilisation – Hindus, Muslims, Christians, > > Buddhists, Sikhs, and Jains – had made such a statement 400 years ago > > and preserved its spirit through centuries, that would have probably > > have been one of the greatest Indian texts. > > > > If you will recall, a very similar event actually did happen in 1949, > > when the founding fathers of the Indian republic adopted, enacted, and > > gave to ourselves - the sovereign people of India - our constitution. > > The preamble reads, > > > > "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India > > into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure > > to all its citizens: > > JUSTICE, social, economic and political; > > LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; > > EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among them all > > FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and > > integrity of the Nation. > > IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, > > do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION." > > > > In an absolute sense, the values of justice, liberty, and equality > > have an intuitive appeal to all humans everywhere. However, the > > formidable authority of our constitution comes from the crushed but > > proud people who paid a very high price for our right to live as > > equals and as dignified humans in India. We must take their word for > > what India is – they must have known and dreamt quite a bit about it. > > > > India's greatest generation definitely realised that divisivism, > > self-doubt, and other demons from our past would haunt the republic > > they formed. Which is why the constitution is important. It helps us > > protect our country from ourselves. > > > > The Constitution. Indian Nationalism. How we will defend India. > > > > Those who doubt the moral power of our freedom-generation, our > > constitutional ethos, and Indian nationalism need only look at > > Pakistan, which renounced all these in its attempts not to be seen as > > Indian. Pakistan's leaders, in trying to defend their divisve national > > philosophy, forced the most horrible bankruptcy on its people. > > > > Rather than using Indian nationalism and the constitution to tackle > > our communal issues, I am appalled at the general trend to merely > > lament that India is on its way to being declared an non-secular state > > - the hundreds of millions of Indians fully intent on preventing this > > notwithstanding. > > > > Pakistan-style Islamism, Ummah-isation of Hinduism, alienation of > > Indian Muslims > > > > There are three major trends in India today that are relevant to > > our topic. > > > > Firstly, India has very serious conflicts of interest with Pakistan. > > We have gone to war with that country several times. Its society has > > issues with radicalisation and a general religious orthodoxy. Its > > regimes have relentlessly attacked India's internal fault-lines over > > the past few decades in the name of Islam. Tens of thousands of Indian > > soldiers have died defending our country against them. It is > > distinctly un-Indian and anti-Indian. > > > > Secondly, Hinduism is, for the lack of a better word, Ummah-ising, and > > this at times takes horrifyingly militant forms. I, given my personal > > biases, am all for Hindu solidarity and abolishing pseudo-secularism. > > However, an argument for Hindu-solidarity should not be allowed to > > take the form of an un-Indian religionalism that goes against the very > > spirit of India. > > > > Thirdly, Indian Muslims feel alienated from their own country. In > > India, Pakistan is synonymous with Islam. Unfortunately, Islam is also > > weakly synonymous with Pakistan. This has significantly undermined > > Indian Muslims' political standing in India vis-a-vis their fellow > > citizens. > > > > The havoc all this has wreaked on our society must not be ignored. > > India was home to one of humanity's greatest Islamic cultures for well > > over 1000 years. It is not, by any means, a dead part of our > > culture - > > nearly 160 million Indians are Muslims, several national icons are > > Muslims, mosques and Islamic architecture litter the country, and > > Muslim holidays are shared by all. And yet, to a lot of Indians, Islam > > doesn't feel Indian, but Pakistani. Despite their respective religious > > majorities, it is odd that Buddhism doesn't feel Sri Lankan, or > > Hinduism itself, Nepali. > > > > The partition of India and secular India's deprivation of its Islamic > > authenticity > > > > Has anyone thought what has actually happened here? Why is it that in > > India, an ancient civilisational land which has a unique Islamic > > culture just like Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, Islam is seen as somehow > > foreign? That is not because of Islam's being inconsistent with India > > – 1000 years and more of history and our combined freedom struggle > > should have proven this by now. > > > > During partition, founders of Pakistan expropriated the subcontinent's > > Islamic identity for defining their nation, Pakistan. Pakistan's > > struggle to keep its ideology alive has robbed us of our Islamic > > authenticity. India's secular nature not-withstanding, the ardour with > > which Pakistan argued itsideology and pushed its exclusivist national > > philosophy within the larger Islamic community ensured that it gained > > some traction in the Indian society. Pakistan's military conflicts > > with "Hindu" India only amplified this. > > > > It only takes a few of decades of intense activity for a new Zeitgeist > > to take root in a society. Consider denazification of Germany, China's > > turn into capitalism, and India's own economic liberalisation. 30 > > years – that is all it takes for a young generation to grow up shaped > > by a pervasive ideology. > > > > Though quite smaller than India, Pakistan is by no means a tiny > > nation. It is the world's 6th most populous country, one of its major > > economies, and a prominent player during the cold war. One cannot find > > fault with it - Pakistan had to defend its national philosophy. It has > > expended a tremendous amount of national effort over the last 60 years > > in achieving a strong association between subcontinental Islam and > > itself. > > > > They have succeeded splendidly. Islam in the subcontinent today is > > seen as prominently Pakistani and India's secular fabric warped by > > that perception. Pakistan is an Islamic nation - this somehow gives > > them a stronger claim on everything Islamic in the subcontinent. The > > world simply does not recognise India's Islamic authenticity, and > > neither do many Indians within. India continues to be associated > > primarily with Hinduism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, but not Islam. > > > > Does religious brotherhood entirely negate the organic bonds a human > > has to his ancestral land and its history, and to his fellow humans > > who share the same bonds as him? I don't really know. What I do know > > is that this is not the principle on which the Indian republic was > > founded, and its definitely not an Indian value. Religious supremacism > > and breaking up of Indian people are un-Indian philosophies. It goes > > against the very spirit of our freedom struggle, nationalism, and our > > constitution. > > > > Indians must remember that new Pakistani generations do not even have > > the same right to speak for India's Muslims that their earlier > > generations might have had. Indian democracy has proven this > > unnecessary anyway. > > > > Indo-Pak culture-drift and attempts at an unnatural bonhomie > > > > There is a delusion among the political class and Indian people that > > our shared past can be used to achieve friendly relations between > > India and Pakistan. My view is that in doing so, we are only > > reinforcing the internal Islam-Pakistan hyphenation. > > > > When historical developments asunder a people, over a period of time > > the newly formed groups drift increasingly farther from one another. > > Once upon time, Myanmar and Sri Lanka were part of India, just like > > Pakistan and Bangladesh. Afghanistan was part of several Indian > > empires. Today, though at a national level we have very cordial > > relations, they are distinctly unfamiliar to us. > > > > Such a natural drift has definitely taken place between India and > > Pakistan. The strongest bond between us that keeps us in each others' > > national memories is not anything positive that we share, but the > > acrid legacy of partition. It's hard for me as an Indian, for > > instance, to imagine such an Islamism taking hold of Pakistan if it > > were under Akbar's rule. That is, if it were under genuinely > > Indian-style Islamic rule. > > > > I am not suggesting we should actively pursue enmity with Pakistan or > > vilify it. However, its being clumped together with Indian Muslims is > > simply not healthy for India. What has Pakistan's 'leadership' of > > subcontinental Muslims, its advocacy of religious supremacism within, > > and its enmity with India effectively accomplished? It has robbed > > India of its genuine Islamic authenticity in the world's eyes, and > > caused non-Muslim Indians to reject the culture of an un-Indian enemy. > > Pakistan has highlighted Indian Muslims' being Islamic and > =3E consistently de-emphasized their being Indian. > > > > Pursuing an unnatural bonhomie with Pakistan and stressing our > > similarities with them will only weaken our case for our differences, > > which are very real. To uphold our national interest, we must assert > > and amplify these differences. > > > > Replace Islam-Pakistan hyphenation with Islam-India hyphenation in the > > subcontinent > > > > I urge Indians to spearhead a change of perception of Islam in the > > subcontinent. Anything that prevents Indian Muslims' fully asserting > > their claim on India as Indian citizens is against the national > > interest. The strong association in India between subcontinental Islam > > and the present day un-Indian Pakistan must go. > > > > It is tempting to claim that all South Asian countries share Islamic > > civilization equally. It may be polite and civil to do so, and it may > > even have some historical merit, but it's a weak claim for our > > purposes. It doesn't have the necessary boldness and self-conviction > > to be effective. It also doesn't forcefully argue for India's Islamic > > authenticity. Our aim is to end Islam-Pakistan hyphenation for the > > welfare of a billion humans, not to be fair observers of history. We > > must hence push the strongest nationalistic claim possible: Islam in > > the subcontinent is Indian, and it always has been. > > > > Indian Islam never 'went' anywhere – it is alive and well amidst us. > > Our nationalism and constitution are guarantees that it will > > thrive if > > Pakistan would let go of it. When the world thinks of Hinduism in > > South Asia, it thinks of India. Sikhism, it thinks of India. Buddhism, > > India. When it thinks of Islam in South Asia, it must think of India. > > Everyone in the subcontinent will be better off. Everyone. > > > > The idea that Islam in the subcontinent is primarily Indian can gain > > currency only through a concerted nationalist campaign. No apologies > > should be made for such a movement. No one need be convinced of its > > proponents' "patriotism". The obvious worthiness of the cause, its > > truth, and its urgency are justifications enough. > > > > What ideas might such a campaign seek to make current? > > > > The countries in our region share an intertwined, messy history. We > > have a lot in common - languages, religions, culture, quirks - all > > part of our common and colourful heritage. > > > > However, if our historical and religious assets must be divided > > amongst us, then the worthiest inheritor of Islamic heritage in the > > subcontinent can only be India. Not Pakistan, not Bangladesh, not Sri > > Lanka, not Myanmar, not Nepal. India is the only nation that has been > > true to the historical spirit of Indian Islam – that of flourishing > > alongside other Indic faiths in India. > > > > Slay our demons ourselves > > > > Has it ever struck you that in our country, we have a vicious > > circularity of the following sort: we feel dismayed that the > > country/political class/leadership has done nothing for us; a form of > > apathy and resignation sets in; the country/political class/leadership > > continues to do nothing; we feel increasingly more dismayed. > > > > We are a democracy. We individually must act. Things won't happen > > if we don't. > > I urge Indians to assert India's secularism and nationalism to fight > > alienation of the Muslim community from Indian mainstream. This battle > > is the easier one to win – there are hundreds of millions of > > reasonable Indians, the Indian constitution, the liberal press, the > > legacy of our freedom-generation, and truth and justice on our side. > > > > I also urge Indians to fight Pakistani supremacy of subcontinental > > Islam from the outside. That is the root of all our problems. That is > > the key battle in India's war against communalism. We must learn to > > say, "Thanks, but no thanks. I understand what you mean, but this is > > not really true" to anyone who stresses commonalities of any sort in > > the subcontinent. > > > > Who will go first? > > > > Based on the concept of ownership of our destiny, what are the answers > > to these questions: > > > > "But how can non-Muslims claim that Islam in the subcontinent is > > Indian when it is represented by Pakistan and Indian Muslims > > themselves imply so?" > > > > "How can Indian Muslims make the Indo-centric claim when there is a > > genuine sense of their alienation in India and rest of Indian society > > accuses them of siding with Pakistan. We cannot move against Pakstani > > Muslims. There is a lot in common between us." > > > > I don't know! I am definitely going, in my own way. That I know. I > > will not ever treat any Indian by as automatically allied with a > > foreign, inimical power. I will continue making people aware of the > > need to end the subcontinental Islam-Pakistan association and replace > > it with Islam-India. > > > > We shall NOT vilify. We shall have faith. > > > > Indians should stop vilifying each other. Not because it would be > > saintly to do so, but because it only weakens our unity. > > > > Our nationalism and our constitution are solid stuff. Our greatest > > generation did their job well. If we must challenge our fellow > > Indians, invoke these instruments. Face with stead-fast stoicism any > > slurs, any accusations of you being an anti-Indian Muslim or a > > communal Hindutvawadi. Let the diatribe die down. Repeat your > > arguments invoking our nationalism, constitution, and your reasoning > > again. Do not ask anyone to 'prove' his or her patriotism. It's > > demeaning to do so. > > > > Satyameva Jayate – truth alone triumphs. If you are right, you will > > win. Have faith in our country and in every Indians' goodness and > > genuine attachment to their land. > > > > Augmenting India's ideological basis > > > > Earlier I mentioned that our work on Indian nationhood is not a frozen > > process, but a continuing one. We can and must correct any earlier > > mistakes that continue to torment India's communal harmony. > > > > If the greatest challenge the freedom-generation faced was ending the > > British rule and forming a stable republic, the greatest challenge > > before us is to take back leadership of subcontinental Islam from > > Pakistan. Our challenge is to do this without sacrificing India's > > secular nature. > > > > To tackle our new communal challenges in the 21st century, I propose > > the following: > > 1. Secularism will continue to remain the Indian union's lynch > > pin. It > > should not, however, require any particular religious group's giving > > up their right to assert religious solidarity. We should genuinely > > address any concerns about hypocrisy in the name of secularism. > > > > 2. India is a mature concept, and we should actively use it to tackle > > the challenges before us. Secularism is an integral part of our > > nationhood and a historically irreversible development. It follows > > that religionalism – wherever it is practised – is distinctly > > un-Indian. Within India, it is also anti-Indian in the sense that they > > weaken India and goes against its spirit. > > > > 3. The natural heir to Islamic civilisation in the subcontinent is > > India. Subcontinental Islam has always been an Indian phenomenon. > > Pakistan's oft-reinforced association with Indian Muslims must be > > destroyed. > > > > 4. India's brotherhood with its neighbours is dying. Soon there will > > be an Indian generation which doesn't have a single Indian born before > > partition. Every single human in the subcontinent would have been born > > in the countries as they existed after partition. The continuing > > attempts to maintain an unnatural bonhomie with India's hostile > > neighbours is not a tenable project - Pakistan has moved too far away > > from what was once India. > > > > Indian Muslims. India's Islam. > > > > A shockingly large amount of our national energy is wasted in > > countering the effects of Islam-Pakistan hyphenation in the > > subcontinent. > > > > The solution is simple. Reclaim the part of Indian identity that was > > robbed of us some 60 years back. If India is Hindu, then for similar > > reasons, it is also Buddhist, Sikh, Christian - and Islamic. Purported > > authority over sub-continental Islam by other entities in the > > subcontinent is an outrageous farce that must be ended right away. > > > > There is no obligation to do this meekly. India doesn't have > > merely a > > substantial claim or merely an equal claim. It simply has more right > > to subcontinental Islamic heritage than anyone else by an > > overwhelmingly large margin, period. We must use it for our national > > well-being. > > > > Who can assert subcontinental Islam's Indian nature boldly, loudly, > > without an iota of self-doubt or hesitation? Who needs this to be done > > most urgently? Who suffers from a deprivation of their right to belong > > to India the most? The Hindus? Sikhs? Buddhists? Christians? Jains? > > Clearly not. Who else? > > > > The Indian Muslims. The others are left distinctly poorer and their > > country's communal harmony stressed, but their Indian genuineness is > > unquestioned within India and the world over. There is not going > > to be > > an un-Indian leader-nation for India's Sikhs, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists > > and Christians in our neighbourhood any time soon. > > > > http://indianmuslims.in/indias-islam/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > Find them fast with Yahoo! 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Download now. http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in From vadhimoolam at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 12:30:06 2008 From: vadhimoolam at gmail.com (Vetrivel Adhimoolam) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 02:00:06 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? In-Reply-To: <144261.98551.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <144261.98551.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have gained lot from this list, but lately it has been increasingly hijacked by religious fundamentalists and henceforth I have decided to opt out. ----- Original Message ----- From: chanchal malviya To: Krishna Chaithanya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:50 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? I dont know how you understand 'Maya'... Your words let me feel that you think Maya is Illusion... You are very preliminary in its understanding man.... To brief in one line it goes as... Maya is Trigun (Sattva, Rajas and Tamas)... and it is these three attributes of nature that is eneveloping the creatures... and the holder of these attributes is termed as Maya.. English word Illusion cannot describe it... So, the duty is to attain the Sattva and even beyond... as Sattva is also not free from attainment of results.. recoprocal (action and reaction) are attribute of all three attribute of Maya and that is the rule of Maya... So please understand again the book... And be dutiful... you cannot say what is future.. but you must say what is right and wrong and what is your duty... You must do it.. And your first duty is to protect the nation from the hands of Abusers... Nation is your mother, and you may allow your mothers's abuse.. I cannot... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:54:30 AM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? Dear Chanchal, Lord krishna has preached so many things. He also wanted the world to understand what MAYA is all about. If a Hindu scholar who has digested thousands of holy books and still doesn't understand the meaning of MAYA. What can poor Krishna do...!? KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:24:35 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; pawan.durani at gmail.com; asitredsalute at gmail.com CC: reader-list at sarai.net You are absolutely correct now Mr. Krishna.. Kashmir was never a Hindu region... It was only before Mughal invasion.. And I don't understand... Do you know what Lord Krishna has preached in Geeta... What he himself did... You don't understand the depth of your own name.. Give me chance and I will let you know (If you are not a dummy Hindu here)... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: Pawan Durani ; Asit asitreds Cc: reader-list Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 11:55:35 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? "It is a historical fact that Kashmir has been intolerant towards hindus since last almost 1000 years and there have been more than 8 major exodus ofKashmiri pandits ". Does that mean that Kashmir was never a Hindu Country...!? What are you saying Pawan? KC > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:43:38 +0530 > From: pawan.durani at gmail.com > To: asitredsalute at gmail.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > Dear Mr Asit , > > I just wanted to clarify that the word Kashmiriat was used very cleaverly > by > Kashmiri Muslim leaders to hide the atrocities on Kashmiri Hindus. > > It is a historical fact that Kashmir has been intolerant towards hindus > since last almost 1000 years and there have been more than 8 major exodus > of > Kashmiri pandits . > > Regards > > Pawan Durani > > > On 1/20/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > > > lets not communalise the kashmir scene with talking about pandits and > > muslims what is imporatnt is kasmiriyat ant the national liberation of > > kashmir it is a occcupied territory of both pakistan and india we make a > > big > > scene about pandits what about thousands of kasmiri youth killed by the > > indian army the tortures the rapes and the natinal indignination of > > kasmir > > its not a question of hindus or muslims but the colonisation of kasmir > > by > > india and pakistan > > > > asit > > > > > > On 1/20/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > > > > > Same is the case when Theesta and the likes with "secular" media claim > > > "thousands of " muslims bucthered in Gujarath, but who bothers about > > truth > > > when one can get saudi riyals to defend the traitors of the nation > > > with > > > highly paid "criminal" lawyers. ? > > > In riot both hindus and muslims loose their beloved, many lives are > > lost, > > > but this has origin in creating the Pakistan and then not encouraging > > the > > > indian muslims to go the land and nation they created for faith, after > > > promising to live in India like brothers to their society. ? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Wali Arifi > > > Date: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:58 pm > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > To: reader-list > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many > > > > lessons. One > > > > being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate figures when > > > > it comes to > > > > human loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the loss. In > > > > fact accuracy > > > > adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. In essence > > > > multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to take refuge in > > > > propagandaand cloth the truth with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mr Durrani in his post has said: "….for killing of more than 3000 > > > > Kashmiripandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this > > > > community." > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What is Mr > > > > Durrani > > > > trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of killings? > > > > Is he > > > > helping the community by exaggerating the figure? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri > > > > pandits were > > > > killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has to be understood that multiplying figures is dangerously > > > > counterproductive for those who call themselves as the champions and > > > > custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget about the > > > > use of > > > > words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing and so > > > > on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kashmir's history will be written by those who have dreamed of a > > > > 'just > > > > Kashmir'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or trying > > > > to create > > > > it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into what it has > > > > actuallybeen in all practice... **Majoritarianism. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Wali > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > list > > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Fly HYD-BLR for Rs.499 Log on to MakeMyTrip! Check it out! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From tulunadu at hotmail.com Mon Jan 21 12:30:29 2008 From: tulunadu at hotmail.com (Krishna Chaithanya) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:30:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome In-Reply-To: <987237.20281.qm@web90410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <987237.20281.qm@web90410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: "But time will take care of that..." you should always remeber this Chanchal "Hinduism is all Humanity (Supreme court has also said this)" I don't think a certificate any institution is needed. Humanity encompasses all, there are no boundaries. There is no need to spew venom on anyone. Nationalism contradicts Humanity. VASUDAIVAKUTUMBAKAM - This is what Gita told me. And it doen't matter to my faith if other holy books don't say this. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:40:56 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com CC: reader-list at sarai.net Supreme has not chosen me alone... I am just a small drop which adds up to form the Ocean... and the Ocean is again in the way of formation... There are rivers which are trying to intrude and disturb the serenity of Ocean... But time will take care of that... You will not understand.. Read again and again Bhagwad Geeta... Arujna fought a war (the greatest known to mankind) after getting preached from Lord Krishna... he did not give away like you.... Nationalism is in protection of our nation, be that then be Kashmir... What if some disease has hit a part of our body.. We need to fight to make it healthy again... We cannot cut it away... We cannot escape from it... Hinduism is all Humanity (Supreme court has also said this)... and anyone talking Hinduism is actually talking Humanity... So Hindus must talk Hinduism first... For it is Hindus because of whom the nation is still holding itself... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:42:49 AM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome Glad to know that the supreme being has chosen you to save the nation Every religious fundamentalist believes that he is the chosen one and his religion is the only path May the god bless you Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:20:59 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com You are not to decide the right path... You are not among ones who can save the nation... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:43:30 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome You are the best human I've ever come across. I can feel your energy,very vinrant, unfortunately it has not found the right path God bless you Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:37:00 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com You first sacrifice your house to a Muslim.. And then we will think about Kashmir... You are an Idiot... and an Anti-National... Absolutely no doubt.. People like you will create many Kashmirs.. and get every Hindu killed... It is better you convert... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:37:51 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome I'v no problem accepting Kashmir as a country, why not the Govt. accept it? why should we sacrifice our soldiers there? How much resources we have wasted on Kashmir all these years? how many people we'v got killed? Is there any meaning to it. Isn't it stupid- instead of holding what is with us tight, we focused a lot on Kashmir and allowed the fire to spread to other regions. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:47:47 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com Yes.. I mean it... Because Kashmir is virtually a country now.. It is army of India that is still holding it.. And Muslims don't want that.. This is the reason, you find so much of Muslims shouting on Army.. This is the truth... Accept or Reject is your choice... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:10:18 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome I can start quoting dates with killing counts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... Correct yourself please... You'v said countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and KASHMIR....! > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:21:53 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com; kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > Don't mislead... > The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to India (all HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India... (I will get the Video uploaded on UTube on this, as this was shown by an external news channel)... and you say, women are raped in India.. > > You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of having more than one wife.. there is no freedom to women to report rapes... who will show what happens in your community... The Quran says them all... and I have all senteces of Quran right with me.... Believe me, all awaken Hindus are now reading Quran... they all know what is there in that book... > So, Muslims cannot fool the world any more that Quran teaches Peace... and Islam is a peaceful religion... > > Modi is a simple indication, what Hindus are now thinking... It is Muslims who have to think now... they have created this world a land of havoc... Everywhere they are simply engaged in Killing.... > They even kill each other, as in Iraq and now in Pakistan... And they are seriously killing Hindus like anything.... If this is again refuted... I can start quoting dates with killing counts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... > > I don't know, what is in their head.... How do they get so easily terrorised... What do they get in believing that killign an Idolator is a work of God... It is stupid... and yet they all are keeping this faith in their head.... > they all are not engaged in killing, but they all are engaged in supporting this act... > Quran says, forgive the Idolators only if they accept Islam... and Quran says this right from second Surah to the last one... > > Why? Our religion don't teach about this variance at all... Geeta teaches how to unite, how to live with respective with each other, how to love, how to perform duty... Why can't you teach peace... > > Why can't you understand that Nature has created every creature (of all species) unique and different.. Nature has produced variance so that creatures can live with respect to each other... A specie is not naturally allowed to kill the same specie.. except for humans.. where humans are killing humans... > > Let India live with its heritage of Hindutva... Thousands of years of killing and enforcement have failed to eliminate Hindus... Another thousand will also fail... Because nature will keep the variance alive... But the attempt of Islam and christianity would only produce killing of innocent people... > > Hindus would kill muslims only during riots or war... But Muslim would kill always for religious reasons... > Please stop talking all these things.. > Please talk peace... > Please talk how to proliferate the nation.. > Please suggest how to remove the Quranic Islam and produce Indian Islam... > Please stop attacking Hindus, Modi and Army... > Please, please, please.... > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Zainab Bawa > To: Kshmendra Kaul ; sarai list > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 3:42:08 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > Dear Kshmendra and all your supporters and back slappers, > > You can easily pinpoint Oishik for his outburst of anger and frustration and > then state that because he (mis)directed his anger at Vedavati and company, > he has no right to talk about the abuse of Manipuri women at the hands of > the Indian state appointed soldiers there. How about for a moment > questioning Lady Chanchal and her remarks and for once again coming back to > the issue that Oishik has tried to raise - the rape of women at the hands of > state appointed army and the manifestations of the state's violence at > women? > > Chanchal diverted the topic by once again going back to her pet peeve of > Islam and Muslim and her hang ups of some frozen history that she loves to > imagine. I pointed out to her that it has nothing to do with Hindu-Muslim > populations and Hindu-Muslim army soldiers but a larger question and concern > about women being direct targets of state violence (with that state violence > and injustice also being responsible for the rise of all kinds of other > movements to combat it). I then pointed to Chanchal how I have also been > eve-teased in Srinagar by soldiers. No, they did not come to ask me whether > I was Hindu or Muslim but made lewd remarks simply because I was woman and > bear breasts and bosom on my person. I also want to clarify that it not > about the soldiers themselves, but about the institutions and the systems > that get perpetrated within the structure of the conflict and occupation of > space. Chanchal immediately retorted saying that because I happen to be > "Muslim", I am likely to complain about being eve teased. *What kind of a > patriarchal and discriminatory remark is this?* This does not come to your > attention but Oishik's suggestion of anal stimulation immediately strikes > you and you make claims about the mothers and sisters of the world. You > don't recognize that we have turned this into a battle of whose position is > right and backslapping. In our egostical positions and pride and victimized > states, as Gowhar and others have rightly pointed out, we fail to see who > suffers - children who are beaten by the army, women who are serially raped > and butchered, men whose psyches have been muted by the violences, families > that continue to suffer the losses of their loved ones, etc. and this is not > restricted to Kashmir, but to violence all over the world. But perhaps, you > would brush this aside by exclaiming that these are standard complaints of > Muslims. And then you cleverly subvert every issue, incidence and event to > Kashmir and to Muslims. Clever you! > > On this note, having personally known Oishik, I vouch for him as a very > sincere, honest and well-meaning person. One remark of anger and frustration > does not define a person's overall political commitments and thoughts. And > this would apply to my not boxing either of you as good or bad people on the > basis of your positions. > > Best, > > Zainab > > *P.S. Any immediate retort/s to this email will be and ought to be > categorically ignored. * > > > On Jan 20, 2008 3:05 PM, wrote: > > > Well said, with lal salaaam. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:48 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > To: sarai list > > > > > Oishik > > > > > > 1. Thank you for the suggestion directed to me. It does not > > > interest me. I too have some suggestions for you. > > > > > > 2. You seem to be obsessed with what you have experienced and > > > suggested. You see a lot of merit in it. > > > > > > 3. Charitable soul that you are, you must have promoted it to > > > your circle of family and friends. > > > > > > 4. OISHIT, since there might be others of your kind who might > > > not find your suggestions/language obscene and crude, you must > > > convince them about it. You must provide references for them on > > > the efficacy of your suggestion. > > > > > > 5. So OISHIT, I presume we will get testimonials from your > > > mother, sisters (if any), daughters (if any) and others to whom > > > you must have recommended the stimulation. They certainly would > > > have respected your suggestion. Maybe you even helped them in the > > > processes in the course of convincing them that your suggestion on > > > means to experience pleasure is not abuse. You must mention the > > > role played by you. > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > > > Kshmendra: > > > > > > That was not meant to be an abuse at all... it was meant to > > > suggest a means to experience anal stimulation that can be > > > orgasmic... I have tried it... so suggested that Vedavati do the > > > same... you could also do the same... actually all the HINDUS who > > > are obsessing about nationalism on this listserv should do the > > > same... they'll realise that there are better and more enjoyable -- > > > and of course more useful things in life to do than spew virulent > > > intolerance. Suggesting means to experience pleasure is not abuse, > > > I'm sure you'll agree. > > > > > > And I am overwhelmed with the kind of response my comments have > > > attracted -- that's the way to keep the Hindu bullshitters engaged > > > I can clearly see. > > > > > > If you find this mail to be crude and obscene as well -- I > > > would've made my point. > > > > > > Cheers... > > > > > > Oishik > > > > > > On Jan 19, 2008 3:16 AM, Kshmendra Kaul > > > wrote: > > > It is ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to > > > the notice of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against > > > abuse directed at them. > > > > > > Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI) > > > was the one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and > > > obscene manner. > > > > > > Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would > > > have to say to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights" > > > (sic). > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > > Try it now. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > > Room 016 B > > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > > > 416.876.7926 > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > > Try it now. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Fly HYD-BLR for Rs.499 Log on to MakeMyTrip! Check it out! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. It's about getting married. Click here! Try it! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 12:42:45 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:42:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Return to Kashmir, J&K minister urges migrants In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30801170158j4b325669ubfc53bc54d53b545@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30801170158j4b325669ubfc53bc54d53b545@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801202312v6af78c70ra1f9dcd3f035c9e2@mail.gmail.com> http://newsblaze.com/story/20080119070258kash.nb/newsblaze/KASHMIR1/Kashmir.html Security of Kashmir CM, pro-Indian Leaders Beefed Up By Fayaz Wani Srinagar, Jan 19: Amidst intelligence inputs that pro-Pakistan based militant group, Lashkar-e-Toiba is planning to target the chief minister of Kashmir and other pro-Indian leaders in the region, the security grid has been beefed up. In addition, sweeping changes were made in the existing security arrangements of the chief minister and pro-Indian leaders. Police commandos, who are providing security to the chief minister, Ghulam Nabi Azad and one of the pro-Indian leaders and Indian parliamentarian, Omar Abdullah have been directed by the security agencies to undergo more rigorous training to combat the militant attack. "They have been directed to get trained under India's elite National Security Guard (NSG), which provides security cover to India's top most politicians", sources said. Also, the police commandos guarding the Kashmir chief minister have been replaced with a new team, who have undergone more specialized training. "This is being done to minimize the militant chances of infiltrating into the inner circle of chief minister's security", police sources said. Sources said that the police commandos providing security to the chief minister and pro-Indian leaders in Kashmir are under the scanner of security agencies. "There activities are being closely monitored by the agencies and tight vigil is maintained on them", sources said, adding, "This is being done to prevent militants from wooing the police commandos to help them infiltrate into the inner security circle". The security measures have been intensified after the intelligence agencies received inputs that the Lashkar militants were planning to target Kashmir chief minister and main pro-Indian leader in region, Omar Abdullah. *Fayaz Wani reports on life in Srinagar, Kashmir.* On 1/17/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Return to Kashmir, J&K minister urges migrants > > > Express news service > Posted online: Thursday , January 17, 2008 at 11:44:34 > Updated: Thursday , January 17, 2008 at 12:00:04 > > http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Return-to-Kashmir-JK-minister-urges-migrants/262268/ > > > Pune, January 16 With around 500 Kashmiri migrants making Pune their > home during the winter months every year, their presence has become a > source of concern not only for some groups in Pune, but for the > Kashmiri Government. > > Speaking at a press conference on Wednesday, Jammu and Kashmir > Minister Mohammad Dilawar Mir said that the government was now urging > these migrants to return to Kashmir and work there instead of > "spoiling the atmosphere of Pune." > > Drawn by the safe and congenial atmosphere in the city, they come to > Pune and settled down mainly at Kalewadi. "These migrants receive a > lot of support from NGOs and other groups here. But since they come > here every year, we had complained to both the Maharashtra and J&K > governments some two years ago requesting a permanent solution," said > Sanjay Nahar, founder of Sarhad, an NGO working for welfare of > abandoned Kashmiri children. > > Explaining the reasons behind their complaint, Nahar said that since > the migrants were financially needy, they could easily be lured by > money and exploited for aiding terrorist activity. "This poses a > threat to them, since they will automatically be blamed for any > violence or terrorism in the city, and will create problems for their > security. The safe image of Pune will also be ruined," he said. > > Nahar said the Kashmiri government was keen to investigate the reasons > for this vast influx of migrants into the city, and how a solution can > be found. "Recently Inspector General of Police from J&K Javid > Mukhdoomi also visited Kalewadi and wrote a report on this seasonal > migration of Kashmiri Muslims," said Nahar. Mir, who is the minister > for Public Health Engineering, Irrigation, Flood Control, and > Horticulture is also in the city to meet the migrants and study their > situation. > > Mir said that complaints had been received that the migrants were > begging for money, food, and so on. "We spoke to them and asked them > their reasons for coming here and whether they felt threatened in > Kashmir. They said that they are not forced by anyone to come here. So > we have told them that they should return to their state and take up > employment there instead of spoiling the atmosphere in Pune, which has > always been good to Kashmiri migrants and students," said Mir. > > Mir said that the J&K government was also trying to encourage Kashmiri > Hindus to return to their home state. "Many Kashmiri Pandits were > forced to leave their birthplace because of militancy. But now the > situation has become normal, and they should return to where they > belong with full honour and dignity," said Mir, adding that thousands > of Pandits had visited their home towns during the Kheer Bhawani > Tulbula festival, and had received a warm welcome. > > Referring to military intelligence reports that infiltration in > Kashmir was on the rise, Mir said, "We do not want to question the > reports, but we are government officials working at the ground level > in Kashmir, and I can see that the situation is improving," he said, > adding that the government was also encouraging film shootings and > tourist visits to the state. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Mon Jan 21 12:47:45 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:17:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome Message-ID: <322280.29665.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Which other religion has said this... let me know... And do not quote few words to explain things... talk in context... Attitude of yours have sold this country.. and Every other invaders have taken advantage of this.. But you will not improve... Your task is to give up in the name of Secularism.... VASUDAIVAKUTUMBAKAM does mean that everyone belong to One Family (Does Quran or Bible say so?)... But it also means that all humans of Vasudeva Kutumba are one family.... You see, interpretation is all that is confusing... Please see the context in which this is said to understand the correct interpretation... and then we will talk on this... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 12:30:29 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome "But time will take care of that..." you should always remeber this Chanchal "Hinduism is all Humanity (Supreme court has also said this)" I don't think a certificate any institution is needed. Humanity encompasses all, there are no boundaries. There is no need to spew venom on anyone. Nationalism contradicts Humanity. VASUDAIVAKUTUMBAKAM - This is what Gita told me. And it doen't matter to my faith if other holy books don't say this. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:40:56 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com CC: reader-list at sarai.net Supreme has not chosen me alone... I am just a small drop which adds up to form the Ocean... and the Ocean is again in the way of formation... There are rivers which are trying to intrude and disturb the serenity of Ocean... But time will take care of that... You will not understand.. Read again and again Bhagwad Geeta... Arujna fought a war (the greatest known to mankind) after getting preached from Lord Krishna... he did not give away like you.... Nationalism is in protection of our nation, be that then be Kashmir... What if some disease has hit a part of our body.. We need to fight to make it healthy again... We cannot cut it away... We cannot escape from it... Hinduism is all Humanity (Supreme court has also said this)... and anyone talking Hinduism is actually talking Humanity... So Hindus must talk Hinduism first... For it is Hindus because of whom the nation is still holding itself... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:42:49 AM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome Glad to know that the supreme being has chosen you to save the nation Every religious fundamentalist believes that he is the chosen one and his religion is the only path May the god bless you Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:20:59 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com You are not to decide the right path... You are not among ones who can save the nation... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:43:30 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome You are the best human I've ever come across. I can feel your energy,very vinrant, unfortunately it has not found the right path God bless you Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:37:00 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com You first sacrifice your house to a Muslim.. And then we will think about Kashmir... You are an Idiot... and an Anti-National... Absolutely no doubt.. People like you will create many Kashmirs.. and get every Hindu killed... It is better you convert... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:37:51 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome I'v no problem accepting Kashmir as a country, why not the Govt. accept it? why should we sacrifice our soldiers there? How much resources we have wasted on Kashmir all these years? how many people we'v got killed? Is there any meaning to it. Isn't it stupid- instead of holding what is with us tight, we focused a lot on Kashmir and allowed the fire to spread to other regions. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:47:47 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com Yes.. I mean it... Because Kashmir is virtually a country now.. It is army of India that is still holding it.. And Muslims don't want that.. This is the reason, you find so much of Muslims shouting on Army.. This is the truth... Accept or Reject is your choice... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:10:18 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome I can start quoting dates with killingcounts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... Correct yourself please... You'v said countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and KASHMIR....! > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:21:53 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com; kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > Don't mislead... > The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to India (all HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India... (I will get the Video uploaded on UTube on this, as this was shown by an external news channel)... and you say, women are raped in India.. > > You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of having more than one wife.. there is no freedom to women to report rapes... who will show what happens in your community... The Quran says them all... and I have all senteces of Quran right with me.... Believe me, all awaken Hindus are now reading Quran... they all know what is there in that book... > So, Muslims cannot fool the world any more that Quran teaches Peace... and Islam is a peaceful religion... > > Modi is a simple indication, what Hindus are now thinking... It is Muslims who have to think now... they have created this world a land of havoc... Everywhere they are simply engaged in Killing.... > They even kill each other, as in Iraq and now in Pakistan... And they are seriously killing Hindus like anything.... If this is again refuted... I can start quoting dates with killing counts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... > > I don't know, what is in their head.... How do they get so easily terrorised... What do they get in believing that killign an Idolator is a work of God... It is stupid... and yet they all are keeping this faith in their head.... > they all are not engaged in killing, but they all are engaged in supporting this act... > Quran says, forgive the Idolators only if they accept Islam... and Quran says this right from second Surah to the last one... > > Why? Our religion don't teach about this variance at all... Geeta teaches how to unite, how to live with respective with each other, how to love, how to perform duty... Why can't you teach peace... > > Why can't you understand that Nature has created every creature (of all species) unique and different.. Nature has produced variance so that creatures can live with respect to each other... A specie is not naturally allowed to kill the same specie.. except for humans.. where humans are killing humans... > > Let India live with its heritage of Hindutva... Thousands of years of killing and enforcement have failed to eliminate Hindus... Another thousand will also fail... Because nature will keep the variance alive... But the attempt of Islam and christianity would only produce killing of innocent people... > > Hindus would kill muslims only during riots or war... But Muslim would kill always for religious reasons... > Please stop talking all these things.. > Please talk peace... > Please talk how to proliferate the nation.. > Please suggest how to remove the Quranic Islam and produce Indian Islam... > Please stop attacking Hindus, Modi and Army... > Please, please, please.... > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Zainab Bawa > To: Kshmendra Kaul ; sarai list > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 3:42:08 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > Dear Kshmendra and all your supporters and back slappers, > > You can easily pinpoint Oishik for his outburst of anger and frustration and > then state that because he (mis)directed his anger at Vedavati and company, > he has no right to talk about the abuse of Manipuri women at the hands of > the Indian state appointed soldiers there. How about for a moment > questioning Lady Chanchal and her remarks and for once again coming back to > the issue that Oishik has tried to raise - the rape of women at the hands of > state appointed army and the manifestations of the state's violence at > women? > > Chanchal diverted the topic by once again going back to her pet peeve of > Islam and Muslim and her hang ups of some frozen history that she loves to > imagine. I pointed out to her that it has nothing to do with Hindu-Muslim > populations and Hindu-Muslim army soldiers but a larger question and concern > about women being direct targets of state violence (with that state violence > and injustice also being responsible for the rise of all kinds of other > movements to combat it). I then pointed to Chanchal how I have also been > eve-teased in Srinagar by soldiers. No, they did not come to ask me whether > I was Hindu or Muslim but made lewd remarks simply because I was woman and > bear breasts and bosom on my person. I also want to clarify that it not > about the soldiers themselves, but about the institutions and the systems > that get perpetrated within the structure of the conflict and occupation of > space. Chanchal immediately retorted saying that because I happen to be > "Muslim", I am likely to complain about being eve teased. *What kind of a > patriarchal and discriminatory remark is this?* This does not come to your > attention but Oishik's suggestion of anal stimulation immediately strikes > you and you make claims about the mothers and sisters of the world. You > don't recognize that we have turned this into a battle of whose position is > right and backslapping. In our egostical positions and pride and victimized > states, as Gowhar and others have rightly pointed out, we fail to see who > suffers - children who are beaten by the army, women who are serially raped > and butchered, men whose psyches have been muted by the violences, families > that continue to suffer the losses of their loved ones, etc. and this is not > restricted to Kashmir, but to violence all over the world. But perhaps, you > would brush this aside by exclaiming that these are standard complaints of > Muslims. And then you cleverly subvert every issue, incidence and event to > Kashmir and to Muslims. Clever you! > > On this note, having personally known Oishik, I vouch for him as a very > sincere, honest and well-meaning person. One remark of anger and frustration > does not define a person's overall political commitments and thoughts. And > this would apply to my not boxing either of you as good or bad people on the > basis of your positions. > > Best, > > Zainab > > *P.S. Any immediate retort/s to this email will be and ought to be > categorically ignored. * > > > On Jan 20, 2008 3:05 PM, wrote: > > > Well said, with lal salaaam. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:48 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > To: sarai list > > > > > Oishik > > > > > > 1. Thank you for the suggestion directed to me. It does not > > > interest me. I too have some suggestions for you. > > > > > > 2. You seem to be obsessed with what you have experienced and > > > suggested. You see a lot of merit in it. > > > > > > 3. Charitable soul that you are, you must have promoted it to > > > your circle of family and friends. > > > > > > 4. OISHIT, since there might be others of your kind who might > > > not find your suggestions/language obscene and crude, you must > > > convince them about it. You must provide references for them on > > > the efficacy of your suggestion. > > > > > > 5. So OISHIT, I presume we will get testimonials from your > > > mother, sisters (if any), daughters (if any) and others to whom > > > you must have recommended the stimulation. They certainly would > > > have respected your suggestion. Maybe you even helped them in the > > > processes in the course of convincing them that your suggestion on > > > means to experience pleasure is not abuse. You must mention the > > > role played by you. > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > > > Kshmendra: > > > > > > That was not meant to be an abuse at all... it was meant to > > > suggest a means to experience anal stimulation that can be > > > orgasmic... I have tried it... so suggested that Vedavati do the > > > same... you could also do the same... actually all the HINDUS who > > > are obsessing about nationalism on this listserv should do the > > > same... they'll realise that there are better and more enjoyable -- > > > and of course more useful things in life to do than spew virulent > > > intolerance. Suggesting means to experience pleasure is not abuse, > > > I'm sure you'll agree. > > > > > > And I am overwhelmed with the kind of response my comments have > > > attracted -- that's the way to keep the Hindu bullshitters engaged > > > I can clearly see. > > > > > > If you find this mail to be crude and obscene as well -- I > > > would've made my point. > > > > > > Cheers... > > > > > > Oishik > > > > > > On Jan 19, 2008 3:16 AM, Kshmendra Kaul > > > wrote: > > > It is ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to > > > the notice of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against > > > abuse directed at them. > > > > > > Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI) > > > was the one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and > > > obscene manner. > > > > > > Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would > > > have to say to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights" > > > (sic). > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > > Try it now. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > > Room 016 B > > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > > > 416.876.7926 > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > > Try it now. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Fly HYD-BLR for Rs.499 Log on to MakeMyTrip! Check it out! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. It's about getting married. Click here! Try it! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Mon Jan 21 12:54:59 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:24:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Message-ID: <184767.34473.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I am sorry... I cannot dare to say that I am Lord Krishna... But I must dare to say that Arjuna need to be created... Paritranay Sadhunam Vinasaycha Dushkritam... DharmaSansthapnarthaya Sambhavami Yuge Yuge... Even God has to kill the Adharmis (be that be then Ravana or Kansa).. be that be then the Terrorised Invaders... Gandhi philosophy has weakened this nation... This nation was protected by Prithvi Raj Chauhan, Rana Pratap, Chhatrapati Shivaji, and so many of them.... This nation was also loved by Bhagat Singh, Subhas Chandra Bose, ChandraShekhar Ajad, Veer Savarkar, etc... This nation do not belong to Gandhi alone.. This nation do not belong to Sonia who has given free hands to Christians to convert Hindus to Christianity (and stupid Hindus are fighting with me here about their own Dharma without knowing anything)... This nation do not belong to Congress who have given every right to Terrorist under Bukhari to force Islamic law in various states over Hindus (and stupid Hindus do not have the gut and sense to even protect and respect their own Dharma)... I dont want to talk to you further... You can sell your house and your people in hands of Christianity and Islam... I cannot... For me my dignity lies in holding my own self and my own self lies in being a Hindu - a Bharat wasi... Let me live with this and let me have people of this thought around me... For you, teach what you are teaching me to a Muslim... and you will know the truth... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 12:21:51 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Are baba, Who is this 'you' and who is this 'I' who am 'I' to differentiate between what is Dharma and What is Adharma, it is already differentiated. Don't be sorry... it is understandable that in this material world any scholar would get lost. Action is living Dharma and doing Karma. When a society forgets that, to remind them invaders come. And if the invaded do not realise why they are invaded get back to theuir Dharma and Karma, they will be dominated for thousands of years. History of the world is that. Are you claiming that you are lord Krishna and therefore talking of creating Arjuna....? I would say blasphemy! KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:37:00 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net After reading Bhagwad Geeta, if you are not able to differentiate between what is Dhrama and what is Adharma... What is Sattvika and what is Tamasika... I am sorry... Bhagwad Geeta is not a a book for those who have given up action... It is for those who knows what is duty (not religion for Dharma means duty in Hinduism and not Religion, unlike all other religion).... And now when Adharma is coming on top of Dharma, it is now time to create Arjuna, who can understand Geeta and perform action in protection of Dharma... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:48:27 AM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Dear Chanchal, Who is this 'You' that you mention. Am I not you...? are you not me...? who is the thinker...? Mantra is not for thinking it is for feeling... experiencing. May be you should read Sri Mad Bagavadgeeta again. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:22:05 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net You are a selfish person... Realizing Shanti only for you... The mantra is far deep than you can even think... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: reader-list at sarai.net; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:37:06 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. What I know can not be expressed in words. I feel peace within me when I Chant OM SHANTHI SHANTHI SHANTHI. It appears like you you understand what is OM and why there is Three Shanthi. But how come there is no sign of peace! I don't care if any other religion has such slogans in their religious books. It doesn't make any difference to my belief and faith in the Supreme. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:44:33 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com Do you understand also... what is OM and why is there Three Shanti... Do you know any other religion which has such slogans in their religious books... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:28:20 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Om Shanthi Shanti Shanti hi KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:53:35 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net How many bombs you have thrown.. Ask this to them... Not us... We are reacting.. They are acting... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:19:37 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society....!? We bomb them and they bomb us and we bomb them and they bomb us together we bomb us then who is left to bomb...? KC > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:33:09 +0500 > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > Hi, true, it for too long hindus have been tolerent leading to a sarcastic comment that they are cowards, may be Nehru was coward when India was divided for his greed,may be Krishna menon loved chinese vaginas more than indian ones, but now it is time that hindu understood the value of SAMA, Dana, BHEDHA are over, dandam dashagunam bhaveth. Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: chanchal malviya > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:24 am > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > To: Javed , reader-list at sarai.net > > > It is time for Hindus to rise now... > > And no dicussion or virtual communities can stop it... > > > > Swami Vivekanand said - India have enough of religion.. > > And it is time now to say this to Christian and Muslims who force > > conversions the same thing.. > > If Sanskrit is the mother of all languages, Hinduism is the mother > > of all Religions... (But two religions have in particular always > > learnt to abuse their mother(Hinduism) - Islam and Christianity)... > > It is time now to stop the nation from producing more Kashmirs... > > It is time now to stop the non-Independent Religious India... > > > > So go on my dear friends as much as you like to abuse Hindus.. > > It hardly matters now.. > > > > Ramayan is proving to be a reality, Mahabharat is a reality.. > > History will also change.. > > It is Hindus that have taught peace to the world.. but to do that > > again, the two attackers have to be checked now.. > > People are doing that.. And will do that.. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Javed > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 6:00:16 PM > > Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > India's Islam > > by Arun Nair > > > > Firstly, I must apologise if this article smacks of an impolite > > urgency and prescriptive-ness. I mean not to be arrogant, but as > > someone addressing you on a matter of deep concern to us all, I felt > > that there was little room for ceremonial apologies before every > > sentence. Also, as an Indian middle-class Hindu who grew up in the > > Babri-masjid 90s, it is easy for me to say some of the things I say > > here. > > > > Secondly, I address you, the reader, as an Indian citizen, not as a > > saintly Kabir or Gandhi preaching love for humanity. Our collective > > interests are being threatened by communal forces from within and > > without. WE MUST ACT. We must not merely lament about our respective > > versions of helplessnesses and others' faults. We are free today > > because India's greatest generation shook off the ghosts that > > bedevilled them, and took action to protect our interests. I implore > > you to continue that legacy. > > > > Thirdly, while I will go into what in my opinion are highly plausible > > theories of Indian nationhood and nationalism, my primary aim here is > > not to write any treatise on politics or sociology, but to protect our > > rights to belong equally to India – our common ancestral land – as > > Indians, and as free, dignified humans. > > > > Fourthly, my ideas will be presented largely based on first > > principles, also known as common-sense. > > > > My thesis is this: India must boldly assert its claim on Islamic > > civilisation in the subcontinent. That is the key to end our communal > > woes. > > > > This does not mean that India must become Islamic, or that Indian > > Muslims must be somehow Hinduised. The idea, instead, is to campaign > > relentlessly for India's Islamic civilisational authenticity. > > > > In the Indian psyche, Pakistan stands for Islam. Sadly for us and > > admittedly in a weaker form, Islam is also synonymous with Pakistan > > and everything Pakistani. This wouldn't have been so bad if Pakistan > > wasn't, well, un-Indian. We must use every tool at our disposal as a > > people to destroy the entrenched idea of Pakistani ownership of > > subcontinental Islam from within India. More importantly, this idea > > must be attacked from without it, because that is where it originates. > > > > Our chief weapon to eliminate Islam-Pakistan hyphenation from the > > subcontinent will be an authentic claim: the centre of Islamic > > civilisation in South Asia has always been undivided India, and after > > partition, India is its natural primary heir. The fact that a few > > million Muslims left India during partition to settle in our erstwhile > > outlying provinces doesn't change this. Neither does the fact that the > > Indian people chose a progressive, secular, democratic polity for > > their republic. > > > > In our minds and in the world's view, subcontinental Islam is under > > Pakistani occupation. The historical Indo-centric nature of > > subcontinental Islam should be used to throw off this psychological > > yoke. I urge Indians to rally together once again as our greatest > > generation did to protect our collective interests as the people of > > India. I urge friends of India all over the world to join us. Both in > > terms of geography and spirit, Islam in the subcontinent that > > coexisted and flourished alongside Indic cultures, has always been > > more Indian than Pakistani. If any single country represents > > subcontinental Islam as it historically was, it is India. Not > > Pakistan. > > > > India's Mughals. India's Qutub Minar, Gol Gumaz, and Taj Mahal. > > India's Kabir. India's Tipu Sultan, Shah Jahan, Akbar, and, why not, > > Aurangazeb. India's Urdu. India's Ghalib and Khusro. India's Delhi, > > Lucknow, Mysore, Hyderabad, Malabar, and Agra. > > > > Good history has to be deliberately written > > > > The people of India inherited thousands of years of history and > > associated baggage that we didn't really ask for. > > > > Keep in mind though that history is not a dead object - it is > > unfurling even as you read this. We may not be able to change what > > happened in India 200 years ago. But 200 years from now when people > > look back, they will see the Indian history that our generation wrote. > > It becomes then our duty, both as Indians and as sensible humans, to > > write it well. > > > > It is a great privilege to deliberately be able to write a part of > > something grand like the history of India. The first generation of > > Indians who did a coordinated job of writing our history was the one > > that won us our independence – our "freedom-generation". They could > > have attempted to write their Indian chapter any way they wanted to. > > We could have had a dark, China-style communism, for instance. But, > > given the Indian context, the freedom-generation chose the most > > egalitarian, elegant, and humanist theme they could come up with: a > > secular, liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, that takes its > > strength from its inherent pluralism and its inheritance of one of > > mankind's greatest civilisations. > > > > The freedom-generation's legacy for us is the deliberate and > > intelligent manner in which they forged an Indian national identity. > > Thanks to their efforts, our nationality is a solid concept. An Indian > > from Karnataka has a robust nationalistic bond with Indians say from > > Punjab, Gujarat, Assam, or Delhi. Regardless of what languages we > > speak, we all recognise Marathi, Tamil, Bengali and Telugu as Indian > > languages – ancestral assets that all Indians collectively own. > > > > It is a mistake, however, to think that the nation-building task they > > began is complete. Indian nationalism is not an idea frozen in time, > > but an evolving one. We, the successors of India's freedom-generation, > > must exercise our prerogative to define its finer contours and bring > > in new ideas to enrich it. Furthermore, we have an obligation to both > > our founding fathers and India's posterity to do this while being true > > to our quintessential Indian-ness, the just, egalitarian nature of our > > country as embodied in our constitution. > > > > Given that India's situation is not as pressing as it once was, new > > nationalist leaders – giants of the stature of Mahatma Gandhi, Khan > > Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Subhash Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh, Jawaharlal > > Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad or Vallabhai Patel – may be difficult to > > emerge. There is no need to though. We succeeded them, and we must > > take this task upon ourselves. The freedom-generation watches over us > > in the form of our fraternity as Indians which they moulded at a great > > cost, and our constitution. > > > > Indian Nationalism - the idea of Indian brotherhood > > > > Amidst all this noisy consternation of Taslima Nasrin, Babri-masjid, > > BJP-Congress etc., its easy to lose sight of the really big pictures. > > Consider, for instance, this question: what really is the essence of > > Indian nationalism? Why do we all feel so closely tied to India > > and to > > each other? > > > > My answer is that, to put it simply, without the land we call India, > > Indians either have no identity, or very anaemic identities. All > > Indians share this same curious relation to India. > > When we are born to the same human mother, we are brothers. Our > > constitution formed by our freedom-generation explicitly asserts > > fraternity among the Indian people. Fraternity – brotherhood. In what > > sense are we brothers? > > > > Indians are brothers in the sense that the motherland that birthed my > > identity, also birthed yours. India is our ancestral land, and we > > should be proud of everything associated with it. Everything in India, > > its religions, its good and its bad, its languages, its glories and > > struggles, its rivers, its emperors, its heroes and villains, > > everything – is intricately weaved into our consciousnesses of who we > > are, where we come from, what our place in this world is, and how > > other humans see us. Without that identity, we are crippled. > > > > Ours is no ordinary brotherhood. Indian people didn't come into being > > merely a few centuries ago. We are an ancient civilisation, and what > > we have is a civlisational brotherhood – a bond arising from all of > > our belonging to the civilisation that unfolded in the same land, > > India. That brotherhood was formally declared through the constitution > > in 1949, but it existed much before that. Before our greatest > > generation gave it a concrete wording in the 20th century, it was well > > moulded in the crucible that is our land, in the fire of the previous > > several dozen, if not more, centuries. > > > > Every country of the world has stories that define their national > > essences. What is the most essential feature of Indian > > nationalism? It > > is our Indian identity – our being tied to India, and our > > civilisational brotherhood to each other in being bonded so. All > > Indians, regardless of their religion or language, has this bond with > > India and with each other. > > Indians must pause for a while and think why our anthem's going over > > our landmarks is so emotive. Or why Hindu-Muslim-Sikh-Christian > > insignia are powerful. Or why merely thinking of our history, or our > > Kerala, Karnataka, Maharashtra, UP, Punjab and Bengal moves all of us > > equally. > > > > It's because they remind us of our organic ties to India, and the > > brotherhood that we have with each other. This natural bond given to > > us by our glorious and at times bloody history is important. If we > > don't uphold this bond with the ferocity that our greatest generation > > did, if we don't use it to protect our common interests, our country > > will remain weak. > > > > Our country's nature > > > > What is the nature of our country? What does it mean for something > > to be Indian? > > For one, if all of us Indians could get together today and declare in > > one voice that India stands for certain values, then that would be an > > authoritative statement. India is what Indians say it is. If, say, the > > people of the then-Indian civilisation – Hindus, Muslims, Christians, > > Buddhists, Sikhs, and Jains – had made such a statement 400 years ago > > and preserved its spirit through centuries, that would have probably > > have been one of the greatest Indian texts. > > > > If you will recall, a very similar event actually did happen in 1949, > > when the founding fathers of the Indian republic adopted, enacted, and > > gave to ourselves - the sovereign people of India - our constitution. > > The preamble reads, > > > > "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India > > into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure > > to all its citizens: > > JUSTICE, social, economic and political; > > LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; > > EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among them all > > FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and > > integrity of the Nation. > > IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, > > do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION." > > > > In an absolute sense, the values of justice, liberty, and equality > > have an intuitive appeal to all humans everywhere. However, the > > formidable authority of our constitution comes from the crushed but > > proud people who paid a very high price for our right to live as > > equals and as dignified humans in India. We must take their word for > > what India is – they must have known and dreamt quite a bit about it. > > > > India's greatest generation definitely realised that divisivism, > > self-doubt, and other demons from our past would haunt the republic > > they formed. Which is why the constitution is important. It helps us > > protect our country from ourselves. > > > > The Constitution. Indian Nationalism. How we will defend India. > > > > Those who doubt the moral power of our freedom-generation, our > > constitutional ethos, and Indian nationalism need only look at > > Pakistan, which renounced all these in its attempts not to be seen as > > Indian. Pakistan's leaders, in trying to defend their divisve national > > philosophy, forced the most horrible bankruptcy on its people. > > > > Rather than using Indian nationalism and the constitution to tackle > > our communal issues, I am appalled at the general trend to merely > > lament that India is on its way to being declared an non-secular state > > - the hundreds of millions of Indians fully intent on preventing this > > notwithstanding. > > > > Pakistan-style Islamism, Ummah-isation of Hinduism, alienation of > > Indian Muslims > > > > There are three major trends in India today that are relevant to > > our topic. > > > > Firstly, India has very serious conflicts of interest with Pakistan. > > We have gone to war with that country several times. Its society has > > issues with radicalisation and a general religious orthodoxy. Its > > regimes have relentlessly attacked India's internal fault-lines over > > the past few decades in the name of Islam. Tens of thousands of Indian > > soldiers have died defending our country against them. It is > > distinctly un-Indian and anti-Indian. > > > > Secondly, Hinduism is, for the lack of a better word, Ummah-ising, and > > this at times takes horrifyingly militant forms. I, given my personal > > biases, am all for Hindu solidarity and abolishing pseudo-secularism. > > However, an argument for Hindu-solidarity should not be allowed to > > take the form of an un-Indian religionalism that goes against the very > > spirit of India. > > > > Thirdly, Indian Muslims feel alienated from their own country. In > > India, Pakistan is synonymous with Islam. Unfortunately, Islam is also > > weakly synonymous with Pakistan. This has significantly undermined > > Indian Muslims' political standing in India vis-a-vis their fellow > > citizens. > > > > The havoc all this has wreaked on our society must not be ignored. > > India was home to one of humanity's greatest Islamic cultures for well > > over 1000 years. It is not, by any means, a dead part of our > > culture - > > nearly 160 million Indians are Muslims, several national icons are > > Muslims, mosques and Islamic architecture litter the country, and > > Muslim holidays are shared by all. And yet, to a lot of Indians, Islam > > doesn't feel Indian, but Pakistani. Despite their respective religious > > majorities, it is odd that Buddhism doesn't feel Sri Lankan, or > > Hinduism itself, Nepali. > > > > The partition of India and secular India's deprivation of its Islamic > > authenticity > > > > Has anyone thought what has actually happened here? Why is it that in > > India, an ancient civilisational land which has a unique Islamic > > culture just like Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, Islam is seen as somehow > > foreign? That is not because of Islam's being inconsistent with India > > – 1000 years and more of history and our combined freedom struggle > > should have proven this by now. > > > > During partition, founders of Pakistan expropriated the subcontinent's > > Islamic identity for defining their nation, Pakistan. Pakistan's > > struggle to keep its ideology alive has robbed us of our Islamic > > authenticity. India's secular nature not-withstanding, the ardour with > > which Pakistan argued itsideology and pushed its exclusivist national > > philosophy within the larger Islamic community ensured that it gained > > some traction in the Indian society. Pakistan's military conflicts > > with "Hindu" India only amplified this. > > > > It only takes a few of decades of intense activity for a new Zeitgeist > > to take root in a society. Consider denazification of Germany, China's > > turn into capitalism, and India's own economic liberalisation. 30 > > years – that is all it takes for a young generation to grow up shaped > > by a pervasive ideology. > > > > Though quite smaller than India, Pakistan is by no means a tiny > > nation. It is the world's 6th most populous country, one of its major > > economies, and a prominent player during the cold war. One cannot find > > fault with it - Pakistan had to defend its national philosophy. It has > > expended a tremendous amount of national effort over the last 60 years > > in achieving a strong association between subcontinental Islam and > > itself. > > > > They have succeeded splendidly. Islam in the subcontinent today is > > seen as prominently Pakistani and India's secular fabric warped by > > that perception. Pakistan is an Islamic nation - this somehow gives > > them a stronger claim on everything Islamic in the subcontinent. The > > world simply does not recognise India's Islamic authenticity, and > > neither do many Indians within. India continues to be associated > > primarily with Hinduism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, but not Islam. > > > > Does religious brotherhood entirely negate the organic bonds a human > > has to his ancestral land and its history, and to his fellow humans > > who share the same bonds as him? I don't really know. What I do know > > is that this is not the principle on which the Indian republic was > > founded, and its definitely not an Indian value. Religious supremacism > > and breaking up of Indian people are un-Indian philosophies. It goes > > against the very spirit of our freedom struggle, nationalism, and our > > constitution. > > > > Indians must remember that new Pakistani generations do not even have > > the same right to speak for India's Muslims that their earlier > > generations might have had. Indian democracy has proven this > > unnecessary anyway. > > > > Indo-Pak culture-drift and attempts at an unnatural bonhomie > > > > There is a delusion among the political class and Indian people that > > our shared past can be used to achieve friendly relations between > > India and Pakistan. My view is that in doing so, we are only > > reinforcing the internal Islam-Pakistan hyphenation. > > > > When historical developments asunder a people, over a period of time > > the newly formed groups drift increasingly farther from one another. > > Once upon time, Myanmar and Sri Lanka were part of India, just like > > Pakistan and Bangladesh. Afghanistan was part of several Indian > > empires. Today, though at a national level we have very cordial > > relations, they are distinctly unfamiliar to us. > > > > Such a natural drift has definitely taken place between India and > > Pakistan. The strongest bond between us that keeps us in each others' > > national memories is not anything positive that we share, but the > > acrid legacy of partition. It's hard for me as an Indian, for > > instance, to imagine such an Islamism taking hold of Pakistan if it > > were under Akbar's rule. That is, if it were under genuinely > > Indian-style Islamic rule. > > > > I am not suggesting we should actively pursue enmity with Pakistan or > > vilify it. However, its being clumped together with Indian Muslims is > > simply not healthy for India. What has Pakistan's 'leadership' of > > subcontinental Muslims, its advocacy of religious supremacism within, > > and its enmity with India effectively accomplished? It has robbed > > India of its genuine Islamic authenticity in the world's eyes, and > > caused non-Muslim Indians to reject the culture of an un-Indian enemy. > > Pakistan has highlighted Indian Muslims' being Islamic and > =3E consistently de-emphasized their being Indian. > > > > Pursuing an unnatural bonhomie with Pakistan and stressing our > > similarities with them will only weaken our case for our differences, > > which are very real. To uphold our national interest, we must assert > > and amplify these differences. > > > > Replace Islam-Pakistan hyphenation with Islam-India hyphenation in the > > subcontinent > > > > I urge Indians to spearhead a change of perception of Islam in the > > subcontinent. Anything that prevents Indian Muslims' fully asserting > > their claim on India as Indian citizens is against the national > > interest. The strong association in India between subcontinental Islam > > and the present day un-Indian Pakistan must go. > > > > It is tempting to claim that all South Asian countries share Islamic > > civilization equally. It may be polite and civil to do so, and it may > > even have some historical merit, but it's a weak claim for our > > purposes. It doesn't have the necessary boldness and self-conviction > > to be effective. It also doesn't forcefully argue for India's Islamic > > authenticity. Our aim is to end Islam-Pakistan hyphenation for the > > welfare of a billion humans, not to be fair observers of history. We > > must hence push the strongest nationalistic claim possible: Islam in > > the subcontinent is Indian, and it always has been. > > > > Indian Islam never 'went' anywhere – it is alive and well amidst us. > > Our nationalism and constitution are guarantees that it will > > thrive if > > Pakistan would let go of it. When the world thinks of Hinduism in > > South Asia, it thinks of India. Sikhism, it thinks of India. Buddhism, > > India. When it thinks of Islam in South Asia, it must think of India. > > Everyone in the subcontinent will be better off. Everyone. > > > > The idea that Islam in the subcontinent is primarily Indian can gain > > currency only through a concerted nationalist campaign. No apologies > > should be made for such a movement. No one need be convinced of its > > proponents' "patriotism". The obvious worthiness of the cause, its > > truth, and its urgency are justifications enough. > > > > What ideas might such a campaign seek to make current? > > > > The countries in our region share an intertwined, messy history. We > > have a lot in common - languages, religions, culture, quirks - all > > part of our common and colourful heritage. > > > > However, if our historical and religious assets must be divided > > amongst us, then the worthiest inheritor of Islamic heritage in the > > subcontinent can only be India. Not Pakistan, not Bangladesh, not Sri > > Lanka, not Myanmar, not Nepal. India is the only nation that has been > > true to the historical spirit of Indian Islam – that of flourishing > > alongside other Indic faiths in India. > > > > Slay our demons ourselves > > > > Has it ever struck you that in our country, we have a vicious > > circularity of the following sort: we feel dismayed that the > > country/political class/leadership has done nothing for us; a form of > > apathy and resignation sets in; the country/political class/leadership > > continues to do nothing; we feel increasingly more dismayed. > > > > We are a democracy. We individually must act. Things won't happen > > if we don't. > > I urge Indians to assert India's secularism and nationalism to fight > > alienation of the Muslim community from Indian mainstream. This battle > > is the easier one to win – there are hundreds of millions of > > reasonable Indians, the Indian constitution, the liberal press, the > > legacy of our freedom-generation, and truth and justice on our side. > > > > I also urge Indians to fight Pakistani supremacy of subcontinental > > Islam from the outside. That is the root of all our problems. That is > > the key battle in India's war against communalism. We must learn to > > say, "Thanks, but no thanks. I understand what you mean, but this is > > not really true" to anyone who stresses commonalities of any sort in > > the subcontinent. > > > > Who will go first? > > > > Based on the concept of ownership of our destiny, what are the answers > > to these questions: > > > > "But how can non-Muslims claim that Islam in the subcontinent is > > Indian when it is represented by Pakistan and Indian Muslims > > themselves imply so?" > > > > "How can Indian Muslims make the Indo-centric claim when there is a > > genuine sense of their alienation in India and rest of Indian society > > accuses them of siding with Pakistan. We cannot move against Pakstani > > Muslims. There is a lot in common between us." > > > > I don't know! I am definitely going, in my own way. That I know. I > > will not ever treat any Indian by as automatically allied with a > > foreign, inimical power. I will continue making people aware of the > > need to end the subcontinental Islam-Pakistan association and replace > > it with Islam-India. > > > > We shall NOT vilify. We shall have faith. > > > > Indians should stop vilifying each other. Not because it would be > > saintly to do so, but because it only weakens our unity. > > > > Our nationalism and our constitution are solid stuff. Our greatest > > generation did their job well. If we must challenge our fellow > > Indians, invoke these instruments. Face with stead-fast stoicism any > > slurs, any accusations of you being an anti-Indian Muslim or a > > communal Hindutvawadi. Let the diatribe die down. Repeat your > > arguments invoking our nationalism, constitution, and your reasoning > > again. Do not ask anyone to 'prove' his or her patriotism. It's > > demeaning to do so. > > > > Satyameva Jayate – truth alone triumphs. If you are right, you will > > win. Have faith in our country and in every Indians' goodness and > > genuine attachment to their land. > > > > Augmenting India's ideological basis > > > > Earlier I mentioned that our work on Indian nationhood is not a frozen > > process, but a continuing one. We can and must correct any earlier > > mistakes that continue to torment India's communal harmony. > > > > If the greatest challenge the freedom-generation faced was ending the > > British rule and forming a stable republic, the greatest challenge > > before us is to take back leadership of subcontinental Islam from > > Pakistan. Our challenge is to do this without sacrificing India's > > secular nature. > > > > To tackle our new communal challenges in the 21st century, I propose > > the following: > > 1. Secularism will continue to remain the Indian union's lynch > > pin. It > > should not, however, require any particular religious group's giving > > up their right to assert religious solidarity. We should genuinely > > address any concerns about hypocrisy in the name of secularism. > > > > 2. India is a mature concept, and we should actively use it to tackle > > the challenges before us. Secularism is an integral part of our > > nationhood and a historically irreversible development. It follows > > that religionalism – wherever it is practised – is distinctly > > un-Indian. Within India, it is also anti-Indian in the sense that they > > weaken India and goes against its spirit. > > > > 3. The natural heir to Islamic civilisation in the subcontinent is > > India. Subcontinental Islam has always been an Indian phenomenon. > > Pakistan's oft-reinforced association with Indian Muslims must be > > destroyed. > > > > 4. India's brotherhood with its neighbours is dying. Soon there will > > be an Indian generation which doesn't have a single Indian born before > > partition. Every single human in the subcontinent would have been born > > in the countries as they existed after partition. The continuing > > attempts to maintain an unnatural bonhomie with India's hostile > > neighbours is not a tenable project - Pakistan has moved too far away > > from what was once India. > > > > Indian Muslims. India's Islam. > > > > A shockingly large amount of our national energy is wasted in > > countering the effects of Islam-Pakistan hyphenation in the > > subcontinent. > > > > The solution is simple. Reclaim the part of Indian identity that was > > robbed of us some 60 years back. If India is Hindu, then for similar > > reasons, it is also Buddhist, Sikh, Christian - and Islamic. Purported > > authority over sub-continental Islam by other entities in the > > subcontinent is an outrageous farce that must be ended right away. > > > > There is no obligation to do this meekly. India doesn't have > > merely a > > substantial claim or merely an equal claim. It simply has more right > > to subcontinental Islamic heritage than anyone else by an > > overwhelmingly large margin, period. We must use it for our national > > well-being. > > > > Who can assert subcontinental Islam's Indian nature boldly, loudly, > > without an iota of self-doubt or hesitation? Who needs this to be done > > most urgently? Who suffers from a deprivation of their right to belong > > to India the most? The Hindus? Sikhs? Buddhists? Christians? Jains? > > Clearly not. Who else? > > > > The Indian Muslims. The others are left distinctly poorer and their > > country's communal harmony stressed, but their Indian genuineness is > > unquestioned within India and the world over. There is not going > > to be > > an un-Indian leader-nation for India's Sikhs, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists > > and Christians in our neighbourhood any time soon. > > > > http://indianmuslims.in/indias-islam/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping_________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=220 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Post free auto ads on Yello Classifieds now! Try it now! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Mon Jan 21 12:59:00 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:29:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome Message-ID: <816418.8207.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I again say.. I do not hate them... My language might be tough... But I want them to become Indian Muslim rather then Islamic Muslim... I want them to join our slogan of 'Bharat mata ki Jai'.. which Bukhari and the whole mulim community have rejected... I want them to join a road show against terrorism.. I never wanted them to tell me Quran... I never wanted them to kill us when we are worshipping our dieties in temples in the name of Idolators as said in Quran.. I want them to come out of those killing attitude and join the loving attitude... But I am finding that Hindus are the first enemy of Hindus... They have forgotten to live... They are already dead (this is what Lord Krishna exactly meant in 11th chapter when he showed Arjuna that they have already been killed)... and hence it is easy for Islam or Christianity to easily do thousands of Conversion... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:42:49 AM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome Glad to know that the supreme being has chosen you to save the nation Every religious fundamentalist believes that he is the chosen one and his religion is the only path May the god bless you Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:20:59 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com You are not to decide the right path... You are not among ones who can save the nation... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:43:30 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome You are the best human I've ever come across. I can feel your energy,very vinrant, unfortunately it has not found the right path God bless you Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:37:00 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com You first sacrifice your house to a Muslim.. And then we will think about Kashmir... You are an Idiot... and an Anti-National... Absolutely no doubt.. People like you will create many Kashmirs.. and get every Hindu killed... It is better you convert... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:37:51 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome I'v no problem accepting Kashmir as a country, why not the Govt. accept it? why should we sacrifice our soldiers there? How much resources we have wasted on Kashmir all these years? how many people we'v got killed? Is there any meaning to it. Isn't it stupid- instead of holding what is with us tight, we focused a lot on Kashmir and allowed the fire to spread to other regions. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:47:47 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com Yes.. I mean it... Because Kashmir is virtually a country now.. It is army of India that is still holding it.. And Muslims don't want that.. This is the reason, you find so much of Muslims shouting on Army.. This is the truth... Accept or Reject is your choice... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:10:18 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome I can start quoting dates with killingcounts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... Correct yourself please... You'v said countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and KASHMIR....! > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:21:53 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com; kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > Don't mislead... > The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to India (all HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India... (I will get the Video uploaded on UTube on this, as this was shown by an external news channel)... and you say, women are raped in India.. > > You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of having more than one wife.. there is no freedom to women to report rapes... who will show what happens in your community... The Quran says them all... and I have all senteces of Quran right with me.... Believe me, all awaken Hindus are now reading Quran... they all know what is there in that book... > So, Muslims cannot fool the world any more that Quran teaches Peace... and Islam is a peaceful religion... > > Modi is a simple indication, what Hindus are now thinking... It is Muslims who have to think now... they have created this world a land of havoc... Everywhere they are simply engaged in Killing.... > They even kill each other, as in Iraq and now in Pakistan... And they are seriously killing Hindus like anything.... If this is again refuted... I can start quoting dates with killing counts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... > > I don't know, what is in their head.... How do they get so easily terrorised... What do they get in believing that killign an Idolator is a work of God... It is stupid... and yet they all are keeping this faith in their head.... > they all are not engaged in killing, but they all are engaged in supporting this act... > Quran says, forgive the Idolators only if they accept Islam... and Quran says this right from second Surah to the last one... > > Why? Our religion don't teach about this variance at all... Geeta teaches how to unite, how to live with respective with each other, how to love, how to perform duty... Why can't you teach peace... > > Why can't you understand that Nature has created every creature (of all species) unique and different.. Nature has produced variance so that creatures can live with respect to each other... A specie is not naturally allowed to kill the same specie.. except for humans.. where humans are killing humans... > > Let India live with its heritage of Hindutva... Thousands of years of killing and enforcement have failed to eliminate Hindus... Another thousand will also fail... Because nature will keep the variance alive... But the attempt of Islam and christianity would only produce killing of innocent people... > > Hindus would kill muslims only during riots or war... But Muslim would kill always for religious reasons... > Please stop talking all these things.. > Please talk peace... > Please talk how to proliferate the nation.. > Please suggest how to remove the Quranic Islam and produce Indian Islam... > Please stop attacking Hindus, Modi and Army... > Please, please, please.... > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Zainab Bawa > To: Kshmendra Kaul ; sarai list > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 3:42:08 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > Dear Kshmendra and all your supporters and back slappers, > > You can easily pinpoint Oishik for his outburst of anger and frustration and > then state that because he (mis)directed his anger at Vedavati and company, > he has no right to talk about the abuse of Manipuri women at the hands of > the Indian state appointed soldiers there. How about for a moment > questioning Lady Chanchal and her remarks and for once again coming back to > the issue that Oishik has tried to raise - the rape of women at the hands of > state appointed army and the manifestations of the state's violence at > women? > > Chanchal diverted the topic by once again going back to her pet peeve of > Islam and Muslim and her hang ups of some frozen history that she loves to > imagine. I pointed out to her that it has nothing to do with Hindu-Muslim > populations and Hindu-Muslim army soldiers but a larger question and concern > about women being direct targets of state violence (with that state violence > and injustice also being responsible for the rise of all kinds of other > movements to combat it). I then pointed to Chanchal how I have also been > eve-teased in Srinagar by soldiers. No, they did not come to ask me whether > I was Hindu or Muslim but made lewd remarks simply because I was woman and > bear breasts and bosom on my person. I also want to clarify that it not > about the soldiers themselves, but about the institutions and the systems > that get perpetrated within the structure of the conflict and occupation of > space. Chanchal immediately retorted saying that because I happen to be > "Muslim", I am likely to complain about being eve teased. *What kind of a > patriarchal and discriminatory remark is this?* This does not come to your > attention but Oishik's suggestion of anal stimulation immediately strikes > you and you make claims about the mothers and sisters of the world. You > don't recognize that we have turned this into a battle of whose position is > right and backslapping. In our egostical positions and pride and victimized > states, as Gowhar and others have rightly pointed out, we fail to see who > suffers - children who are beaten by the army, women who are serially raped > and butchered, men whose psyches have been muted by the violences, families > that continue to suffer the losses of their loved ones, etc. and this is not > restricted to Kashmir, but to violence all over the world. But perhaps, you > would brush this aside by exclaiming that these are standard complaints of > Muslims. And then you cleverly subvert every issue, incidence and event to > Kashmir and to Muslims. Clever you! > > On this note, having personally known Oishik, I vouch for him as a very > sincere, honest and well-meaning person. One remark of anger and frustration > does not define a person's overall political commitments and thoughts. And > this would apply to my not boxing either of you as good or bad people on the > basis of your positions. > > Best, > > Zainab > > *P.S. Any immediate retort/s to this email will be and ought to be > categorically ignored. * > > > On Jan 20, 2008 3:05 PM, wrote: > > > Well said, with lal salaaam. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:48 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > To: sarai list > > > > > Oishik > > > > > > 1. Thank you for the suggestion directed to me. It does not > > > interest me. I too have some suggestions for you. > > > > > > 2. You seem to be obsessed with what you have experienced and > > > suggested. You see a lot of merit in it. > > > > > > 3. Charitable soul that you are, you must have promoted it to > > > your circle of family and friends. > > > > > > 4. OISHIT, since there might be others of your kind who might > > > not find your suggestions/language obscene and crude, you must > > > convince them about it. You must provide references for them on > > > the efficacy of your suggestion. > > > > > > 5. So OISHIT, I presume we will get testimonials from your > > > mother, sisters (if any), daughters (if any) and others to whom > > > you must have recommended the stimulation. They certainly would > > > have respected your suggestion. Maybe you even helped them in the > > > processes in the course of convincing them that your suggestion on > > > means to experience pleasure is not abuse. You must mention the > > > role played by you. > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > > > Kshmendra: > > > > > > That was not meant to be an abuse at all... it was meant to > > > suggest a means to experience anal stimulation that can be > > > orgasmic... I have tried it... so suggested that Vedavati do the > > > same... you could also do the same... actually all the HINDUS who > > > are obsessing about nationalism on this listserv should do the > > > same... they'll realise that there are better and more enjoyable -- > > > and of course more useful things in life to do than spew virulent > > > intolerance. Suggesting means to experience pleasure is not abuse, > > > I'm sure you'll agree. > > > > > > And I am overwhelmed with the kind of response my comments have > > > attracted -- that's the way to keep the Hindu bullshitters engaged > > > I can clearly see. > > > > > > If you find this mail to be crude and obscene as well -- I > > > would've made my point. > > > > > > Cheers... > > > > > > Oishik > > > > > > On Jan 19, 2008 3:16 AM, Kshmendra Kaul > > > wrote: > > > It is ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to > > > the notice of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against > > > abuse directed at them. > > > > > > Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI) > > > was the one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and > > > obscene manner. > > > > > > Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would > > > have to say to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights" > > > (sic). > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > > Try it now. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > > Room 016 B > > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > > > 416.876.7926 > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > > Try it now. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Fly HYD-BLR for Rs.499 Log on to MakeMyTrip! Check it out! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. It's about getting married. Click here! Try it! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From tulunadu at hotmail.com Mon Jan 21 13:07:54 2008 From: tulunadu at hotmail.com (Krishna Chaithanya) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 13:07:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. In-Reply-To: <184767.34473.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <184767.34473.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Who am 'I' to teach anybody? The Supreme teaches everyone. The Supreme creates Adharmis and then kills them. The Supreme creates Dhryodhana and then creates Arjuna. The Supreme creates Chanchal, me and all others whom Chanchal hates or dislikes. If they are Adharmis, the Supreme will destroy them. But the Supreme makes Chanchal restless, and makes Chanchal spew venom on people who disagree with Chanchal or have a different view point. And Chanchal forgets that Chanchal is created by the Supreme and the people who disagree are also created by the Supreme and then challenges others into comparision of holy books (as if they are the menu cards of different restaurants) Do yo need words to describe MAYA? OM SHANTI KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:24:59 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net I am sorry... I cannot dare to say that I am Lord Krishna... But I must dare to say that Arjuna need to be created... Paritranay Sadhunam Vinasaycha Dushkritam... DharmaSansthapnarthaya Sambhavami Yuge Yuge... Even God has to kill the Adharmis (be that be then Ravana or Kansa).. be that be then the Terrorised Invaders... Gandhi philosophy has weakened this nation... This nation was protected by Prithvi Raj Chauhan, Rana Pratap, Chhatrapati Shivaji, and so many of them.... This nation was also loved by Bhagat Singh, Subhas Chandra Bose, ChandraShekhar Ajad, Veer Savarkar, etc... This nation do not belong to Gandhi alone.. This nation do not belong to Sonia who has given free hands to Christians to convert Hindus to Christianity (and stupid Hindus are fighting with me here about their own Dharma without knowing anything)... This nation do not belong to Congress who have given every right to Terrorist under Bukhari to force Islamic law in various states over Hindus (and stupid Hindus do not have the gut and sense to even protect and respect their own Dharma)... I dont want to talk to you further... You can sell your house and your people in hands of Christianity and Islam... I cannot... For me my dignity lies in holding my own self and my own self lies in being a Hindu - a Bharat wasi... Let me live with this and let me have people of this thought around me... For you, teach what you are teaching me to a Muslim... and you will know the truth... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 12:21:51 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Are baba, Who is this 'you' and who is this 'I' who am 'I' to differentiate between what is Dharma and What is Adharma, it is already differentiated. Don't be sorry... it is understandable that in this material world any scholar would get lost. Action is living Dharma and doing Karma. When a society forgets that, to remind them invaders come. And if the invaded do not realise why they are invaded get back to theuir Dharma and Karma, they will be dominated for thousands of years. History of the world is that. Are you claiming that you are lord Krishna and therefore talking of creating Arjuna....? I would say blasphemy! KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:37:00 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net After reading Bhagwad Geeta, if you are not able to differentiate between what is Dhrama and what is Adharma... What is Sattvika and what is Tamasika... I am sorry... Bhagwad Geeta is not a a book for those who have given up action... It is for those who knows what is duty (not religion for Dharma means duty in Hinduism and not Religion, unlike all other religion).... And now when Adharma is coming on top of Dharma, it is now time to create Arjuna, who can understand Geeta and perform action in protection of Dharma... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:48:27 AM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Dear Chanchal, Who is this 'You' that you mention. Am I not you...? are you not me...? who is the thinker...? Mantra is not for thinking it is for feeling... experiencing. May be you should read Sri Mad Bagavadgeeta again. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:22:05 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net You are a selfish person... Realizing Shanti only for you... The mantra is far deep than you can even think... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: reader-list at sarai.net; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:37:06 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. What I know can not be expressed in words. I feel peace within me when I Chant OM SHANTHI SHANTHI SHANTHI. It appears like you you understand what is OM and why there is Three Shanthi. But how come there is no sign of peace! I don't care if any other religion has such slogans in their religious books. It doesn't make any difference to my belief and faith in the Supreme. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:44:33 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com Do you understand also... what is OM and why is there Three Shanti... Do you know any other religion which has such slogans in their religious books... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:28:20 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Om Shanthi Shanti Shanti hi KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:53:35 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net How many bombs you have thrown.. Ask this to them... Not us... We are reacting.. They are acting... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:19:37 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society....!? We bomb them and they bomb us and we bomb them and they bomb us together we bomb us then who is left to bomb...? KC > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:33:09 +0500 > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > Hi, true, it for too long hindus have been tolerent leading to a sarcastic comment that they are cowards, may be Nehru was coward when India was divided for his greed,may be Krishna menon loved chinese vaginas more than indian ones, but now it is time that hindu understood the value of SAMA, Dana, BHEDHA are over, dandam dashagunam bhaveth. Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: chanchal malviya > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:24 am > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > To: Javed , reader-list at sarai.net > > > It is time for Hindus to rise now... > > And no dicussion or virtual communities can stop it... > > > > Swami Vivekanand said - India have enough of religion.. > > And it is time now to say this to Christian and Muslims who force > > conversions the same thing.. > > If Sanskrit is the mother of all languages, Hinduism is the mother > > of all Religions... (But two religions have in particular always > > learnt to abuse their mother(Hinduism) - Islam and Christianity)... > > It is time now to stop the nation from producing more Kashmirs... > > It is time now to stop the non-Independent Religious India... > > > > So go on my dear friends as much as you like to abuse Hindus.. > > It hardly matters now.. > > > > Ramayan is proving to be a reality, Mahabharat is a reality.. > > History will also change.. > > It is Hindus that have taught peace to the world.. but to do that > > again, the two attackers have to be checked now.. > > People are doing that.. And will do that.. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Javed > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 6:00:16 PM > > Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > India's Islam > > by Arun Nair > > > > Firstly, I must apologise if this article smacks of an impolite > > urgency and prescriptive-ness. I mean not to be arrogant, but as > > someone addressing you on a matter of deep concern to us all, I felt > > that there was little room for ceremonial apologies before every > > sentence. Also, as an Indian middle-class Hindu who grew up in the > > Babri-masjid 90s, it is easy for me to say some of the things I say > > here. > > > > Secondly, I address you, the reader, as an Indian citizen, not as a > > saintly Kabir or Gandhi preaching love for humanity. Our collective > > interests are being threatened by communal forces from within and > > without. WE MUST ACT. We must not merely lament about our respective > > versions of helplessnesses and others' faults. We are free today > > because India's greatest generation shook off the ghosts that > > bedevilled them, and took action to protect our interests. I implore > > you to continue that legacy. > > > > Thirdly, while I will go into what in my opinion are highly plausible > > theories of Indian nationhood and nationalism, my primary aim here is > > not to write any treatise on politics or sociology, but to protect our > > rights to belong equally to India – our common ancestral land – as > > Indians, and as free, dignified humans. > > > > Fourthly, my ideas will be presented largely based on first > > principles, also known as common-sense. > > > > My thesis is this: India must boldly assert its claim on Islamic > > civilisation in the subcontinent. That is the key to end our communal > > woes. > > > > This does not mean that India must become Islamic, or that Indian > > Muslims must be somehow Hinduised. The idea, instead, is to campaign > > relentlessly for India's Islamic civilisational authenticity. > > > > In the Indian psyche, Pakistan stands for Islam. Sadly for us and > > admittedly in a weaker form, Islam is also synonymous with Pakistan > > and everything Pakistani. This wouldn't have been so bad if Pakistan > > wasn't, well, un-Indian. We must use every tool at our disposal as a > > people to destroy the entrenched idea of Pakistani ownership of > > subcontinental Islam from within India. More importantly, this idea > > must be attacked from without it, because that is where it originates. > > > > Our chief weapon to eliminate Islam-Pakistan hyphenation from the > > subcontinent will be an authentic claim: the centre of Islamic > > civilisation in South Asia has always been undivided India, and after > > partition, India is its natural primary heir. The fact that a few > > million Muslims left India during partition to settle in our erstwhile > > outlying provinces doesn't change this. Neither does the fact that the > > Indian people chose a progressive, secular, democratic polity for > > their republic. > > > > In our minds and in the world's view, subcontinental Islam is under > > Pakistani occupation. The historical Indo-centric nature of > > subcontinental Islam should be used to throw off this psychological > > yoke. I urge Indians to rally together once again as our greatest > > generation did to protect our collective interests as the people of > > India. I urge friends of India all over the world to join us. Both in > > terms of geography and spirit, Islam in the subcontinent that > > coexisted and flourished alongside Indic cultures, has always been > > more Indian than Pakistani. If any single country represents > > subcontinental Islam as it historically was, it is India. Not > > Pakistan. > > > > India's Mughals. India's Qutub Minar, Gol Gumaz, and Taj Mahal. > > India's Kabir. India's Tipu Sultan, Shah Jahan, Akbar, and, why not, > > Aurangazeb. India's Urdu. India's Ghalib and Khusro. India's Delhi, > > Lucknow, Mysore, Hyderabad, Malabar, and Agra. > > > > Good history has to be deliberately written > > > > The people of India inherited thousands of years of history and > > associated baggage that we didn't really ask for. > > > > Keep in mind though that history is not a dead object - it is > > unfurling even as you read this. We may not be able to change what > > happened in India 200 years ago. But 200 years from now when people > > look back, they will see the Indian history that our generation wrote. > > It becomes then our duty, both as Indians and as sensible humans, to > > write it well. > > > > It is a great privilege to deliberately be able to write a part of > > something grand like the history of India. The first generation of > > Indians who did a coordinated job of writing our history was the one > > that won us our independence – our "freedom-generation". They could > > have attempted to write their Indian chapter any way they wanted to. > > We could have had a dark, China-style communism, for instance. But, > > given the Indian context, the freedom-generation chose the most > > egalitarian, elegant, and humanist theme they could come up with: a > > secular, liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, that takes its > > strength from its inherent pluralism and its inheritance of one of > > mankind's greatest civilisations. > > > > The freedom-generation's legacy for us is the deliberate and > > intelligent manner in which they forged an Indian national identity. > > Thanks to their efforts, our nationality is a solid concept. An Indian > > from Karnataka has a robust nationalistic bond with Indians say from > > Punjab, Gujarat, Assam, or Delhi. Regardless of what languages we > > speak, we all recognise Marathi, Tamil, Bengali and Telugu as Indian > > languages – ancestral assets that all Indians collectively own. > > > > It is a mistake, however, to think that the nation-building task they > > began is complete. Indian nationalism is not an idea frozen in time, > > but an evolving one. We, the successors of India's freedom-generation, > > must exercise our prerogative to define its finer contours and bring > > in new ideas to enrich it. Furthermore, we have an obligation to both > > our founding fathers and India's posterity to do this while being true > > to our quintessential Indian-ness, the just, egalitarian nature of our > > country as embodied in our constitution. > > > > Given that India's situation is not as pressing as it once was, new > > nationalist leaders – giants of the stature of Mahatma Gandhi, Khan > > Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Subhash Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh, Jawaharlal > > Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad or Vallabhai Patel – may be difficult to > > emerge. There is no need to though. We succeeded them, and we must > > take this task upon ourselves. The freedom-generation watches over us > > in the form of our fraternity as Indians which they moulded at a great > > cost, and our constitution. > > > > Indian Nationalism - the idea of Indian brotherhood > > > > Amidst all this noisy consternation of Taslima Nasrin, Babri-masjid, > > BJP-Congress etc., its easy to lose sight of the really big pictures. > > Consider, for instance, this question: what really is the essence of > > Indian nationalism? Why do we all feel so closely tied to India > > and to > > each other? > > > > My answer is that, to put it simply, without the land we call India, > > Indians either have no identity, or very anaemic identities. All > > Indians share this same curious relation to India. > > When we are born to the same human mother, we are brothers. Our > > constitution formed by our freedom-generation explicitly asserts > > fraternity among the Indian people. Fraternity – brotherhood. In what > > sense are we brothers? > > > > Indians are brothers in the sense that the motherland that birthed my > > identity, also birthed yours. India is our ancestral land, and we > > should be proud of everything associated with it. Everything in India, > > its religions, its good and its bad, its languages, its glories and > > struggles, its rivers, its emperors, its heroes and villains, > > everything – is intricately weaved into our consciousnesses of who we > > are, where we come from, what our place in this world is, and how > > other humans see us. Without that identity, we are crippled. > > > > Ours is no ordinary brotherhood. Indian people didn't come into being > > merely a few centuries ago. We are an ancient civilisation, and what > > we have is a civlisational brotherhood – a bond arising from all of > > our belonging to the civilisation that unfolded in the same land, > > India. That brotherhood was formally declared through the constitution > > in 1949, but it existed much before that. Before our greatest > > generation gave it a concrete wording in the 20th century, it was well > > moulded in the crucible that is our land, in the fire of the previous > > several dozen, if not more, centuries. > > > > Every country of the world has stories that define their national > > essences. What is the most essential feature of Indian > > nationalism? It > > is our Indian identity – our being tied to India, and our > > civilisational brotherhood to each other in being bonded so. All > > Indians, regardless of their religion or language, has this bond with > > India and with each other. > > Indians must pause for a while and think why our anthem's going over > > our landmarks is so emotive. Or why Hindu-Muslim-Sikh-Christian > > insignia are powerful. Or why merely thinking of our history, or our > > Kerala, Karnataka, Maharashtra, UP, Punjab and Bengal moves all of us > > equally. > > > > It's because they remind us of our organic ties to India, and the > > brotherhood that we have with each other. This natural bond given to > > us by our glorious and at times bloody history is important. If we > > don't uphold this bond with the ferocity that our greatest generation > > did, if we don't use it to protect our common interests, our country > > will remain weak. > > > > Our country's nature > > > > What is the nature of our country? What does it mean for something > > to be Indian? > > For one, if all of us Indians could get together today and declare in > > one voice that India stands for certain values, then that would be an > > authoritative statement. India is what Indians say it is. If, say, the > > people of the then-Indian civilisation – Hindus, Muslims, Christians, > > Buddhists, Sikhs, and Jains – had made such a statement 400 years ago > > and preserved its spirit through centuries, that would have probably > > have been one of the greatest Indian texts. > > > > If you will recall, a very similar event actually did happen in 1949, > > when the founding fathers of the Indian republic adopted, enacted, and > > gave to ourselves - the sovereign people of India - our constitution. > > The preamble reads, > > > > "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India > > into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure > > to all its citizens: > > JUSTICE, social, economic and political; > > LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; > > EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among them all > > FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and > > integrity of the Nation. > > IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, > > do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION." > > > > In an absolute sense, the values of justice, liberty, and equality > > have an intuitive appeal to all humans everywhere. However, the > > formidable authority of our constitution comes from the crushed but > > proud people who paid a very high price for our right to live as > > equals and as dignified humans in India. We must take their word for > > what India is – they must have known and dreamt quite a bit about it. > > > > India's greatest generation definitely realised that divisivism, > > self-doubt, and other demons from our past would haunt the republic > > they formed. Which is why the constitution is important. It helps us > > protect our country from ourselves. > > > > The Constitution. Indian Nationalism. How we will defend India. > > > > Those who doubt the moral power of our freedom-generation, our > > constitutional ethos, and Indian nationalism need only look at > > Pakistan, which renounced all these in its attempts not to be seen as > > Indian. Pakistan's leaders, in trying to defend their divisve national > > philosophy, forced the most horrible bankruptcy on its people. > > > > Rather than using Indian nationalism and the constitution to tackle > > our communal issues, I am appalled at the general trend to merely > > lament that India is on its way to being declared an non-secular state > > - the hundreds of millions of Indians fully intent on preventing this > > notwithstanding. > > > > Pakistan-style Islamism, Ummah-isation of Hinduism, alienation of > > Indian Muslims > > > > There are three major trends in India today that are relevant to > > our topic. > > > > Firstly, India has very serious conflicts of interest with Pakistan. > > We have gone to war with that country several times. Its society has > > issues with radicalisation and a general religious orthodoxy. Its > > regimes have relentlessly attacked India's internal fault-lines over > > the past few decades in the name of Islam. Tens of thousands of Indian > > soldiers have died defending our country against them. It is > > distinctly un-Indian and anti-Indian. > > > > Secondly, Hinduism is, for the lack of a better word, Ummah-ising, and > > this at times takes horrifyingly militant forms. I, given my personal > > biases, am all for Hindu solidarity and abolishing pseudo-secularism. > > However, an argument for Hindu-solidarity should not be allowed to > > take the form of an un-Indian religionalism that goes against the very > > spirit of India. > > > > Thirdly, Indian Muslims feel alienated from their own country. In > > India, Pakistan is synonymous with Islam. Unfortunately, Islam is also > > weakly synonymous with Pakistan. This has significantly undermined > > Indian Muslims' political standing in India vis-a-vis their fellow > > citizens. > > > > The havoc all this has wreaked on our society must not be ignored. > > India was home to one of humanity's greatest Islamic cultures for well > > over 1000 years. It is not, by any means, a dead part of our > > culture - > > nearly 160 million Indians are Muslims, several national icons are > > Muslims, mosques and Islamic architecture litter the country, and > > Muslim holidays are shared by all. And yet, to a lot of Indians, Islam > > doesn't feel Indian, but Pakistani. Despite their respective religious > > majorities, it is odd that Buddhism doesn't feel Sri Lankan, or > > Hinduism itself, Nepali. > > > > The partition of India and secular India's deprivation of its Islamic > > authenticity > > > > Has anyone thought what has actually happened here? Why is it that in > > India, an ancient civilisational land which has a unique Islamic > > culture just like Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, Islam is seen as somehow > > foreign? That is not because of Islam's being inconsistent with India > > – 1000 years and more of history and our combined freedom struggle > > should have proven this by now. > > > > During partition, founders of Pakistan expropriated the subcontinent's > > Islamic identity for defining their nation, Pakistan. Pakistan's > > struggle to keep its ideology alive has robbed us of our Islamic > > authenticity. India's secular nature not-withstanding, the ardour with > > which Pakistan argued itsideology and pushed its exclusivist national > > philosophy within the larger Islamic community ensured that it gained > > some traction in the Indian society. Pakistan's military conflicts > > with "Hindu" India only amplified this. > > > > It only takes a few of decades of intense activity for a new Zeitgeist > > to take root in a society. Consider denazification of Germany, China's > > turn into capitalism, and India's own economic liberalisation. 30 > > years – that is all it takes for a young generation to grow up shaped > > by a pervasive ideology. > > > > Though quite smaller than India, Pakistan is by no means a tiny > > nation. It is the world's 6th most populous country, one of its major > > economies, and a prominent player during the cold war. One cannot find > > fault with it - Pakistan had to defend its national philosophy. It has > > expended a tremendous amount of national effort over the last 60 years > > in achieving a strong association between subcontinental Islam and > > itself. > > > > They have succeeded splendidly. Islam in the subcontinent today is > > seen as prominently Pakistani and India's secular fabric warped by > > that perception. Pakistan is an Islamic nation - this somehow gives > > them a stronger claim on everything Islamic in the subcontinent. The > > world simply does not recognise India's Islamic authenticity, and > > neither do many Indians within. India continues to be associated > > primarily with Hinduism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, but not Islam. > > > > Does religious brotherhood entirely negate the organic bonds a human > > has to his ancestral land and its history, and to his fellow humans > > who share the same bonds as him? I don't really know. What I do know > > is that this is not the principle on which the Indian republic was > > founded, and its definitely not an Indian value. Religious supremacism > > and breaking up of Indian people are un-Indian philosophies. It goes > > against the very spirit of our freedom struggle, nationalism, and our > > constitution. > > > > Indians must remember that new Pakistani generations do not even have > > the same right to speak for India's Muslims that their earlier > > generations might have had. Indian democracy has proven this > > unnecessary anyway. > > > > Indo-Pak culture-drift and attempts at an unnatural bonhomie > > > > There is a delusion among the political class and Indian people that > > our shared past can be used to achieve friendly relations between > > India and Pakistan. My view is that in doing so, we are only > > reinforcing the internal Islam-Pakistan hyphenation. > > > > When historical developments asunder a people, over a period of time > > the newly formed groups drift increasingly farther from one another. > > Once upon time, Myanmar and Sri Lanka were part of India, just like > > Pakistan and Bangladesh. Afghanistan was part of several Indian > > empires. Today, though at a national level we have very cordial > > relations, they are distinctly unfamiliar to us. > > > > Such a natural drift has definitely taken place between India and > > Pakistan. The strongest bond between us that keeps us in each others' > > national memories is not anything positive that we share, but the > > acrid legacy of partition. It's hard for me as an Indian, for > > instance, to imagine such an Islamism taking hold of Pakistan if it > > were under Akbar's rule. That is, if it were under genuinely > > Indian-style Islamic rule. > > > > I am not suggesting we should actively pursue enmity with Pakistan or > > vilify it. However, its being clumped together with Indian Muslims is > > simply not healthy for India. What has Pakistan's 'leadership' of > > subcontinental Muslims, its advocacy of religious supremacism within, > > and its enmity with India effectively accomplished? It has robbed > > India of its genuine Islamic authenticity in the world's eyes, and > > caused non-Muslim Indians to reject the culture of an un-Indian enemy. > > Pakistan has highlighted Indian Muslims' being Islamic and > =3E consistently de-emphasized their being Indian. > > > > Pursuing an unnatural bonhomie with Pakistan and stressing our > > similarities with them will only weaken our case for our differences, > > which are very real. To uphold our national interest, we must assert > > and amplify these differences. > > > > Replace Islam-Pakistan hyphenation with Islam-India hyphenation in the > > subcontinent > > > > I urge Indians to spearhead a change of perception of Islam in the > > subcontinent. Anything that prevents Indian Muslims' fully asserting > > their claim on India as Indian citizens is against the national > > interest. The strong association in India between subcontinental Islam > > and the present day un-Indian Pakistan must go. > > > > It is tempting to claim that all South Asian countries share Islamic > > civilization equally. It may be polite and civil to do so, and it may > > even have some historical merit, but it's a weak claim for our > > purposes. It doesn't have the necessary boldness and self-conviction > > to be effective. It also doesn't forcefully argue for India's Islamic > > authenticity. Our aim is to end Islam-Pakistan hyphenation for the > > welfare of a billion humans, not to be fair observers of history. We > > must hence push the strongest nationalistic claim possible: Islam in > > the subcontinent is Indian, and it always has been. > > > > Indian Islam never 'went' anywhere – it is alive and well amidst us. > > Our nationalism and constitution are guarantees that it will > > thrive if > > Pakistan would let go of it. When the world thinks of Hinduism in > > South Asia, it thinks of India. Sikhism, it thinks of India. Buddhism, > > India. When it thinks of Islam in South Asia, it must think of India. > > Everyone in the subcontinent will be better off. Everyone. > > > > The idea that Islam in the subcontinent is primarily Indian can gain > > currency only through a concerted nationalist campaign. No apologies > > should be made for such a movement. No one need be convinced of its > > proponents' "patriotism". The obvious worthiness of the cause, its > > truth, and its urgency are justifications enough. > > > > What ideas might such a campaign seek to make current? > > > > The countries in our region share an intertwined, messy history. We > > have a lot in common - languages, religions, culture, quirks - all > > part of our common and colourful heritage. > > > > However, if our historical and religious assets must be divided > > amongst us, then the worthiest inheritor of Islamic heritage in the > > subcontinent can only be India. Not Pakistan, not Bangladesh, not Sri > > Lanka, not Myanmar, not Nepal. India is the only nation that has been > > true to the historical spirit of Indian Islam – that of flourishing > > alongside other Indic faiths in India. > > > > Slay our demons ourselves > > > > Has it ever struck you that in our country, we have a vicious > > circularity of the following sort: we feel dismayed that the > > country/political class/leadership has done nothing for us; a form of > > apathy and resignation sets in; the country/political class/leadership > > continues to do nothing; we feel increasingly more dismayed. > > > > We are a democracy. We individually must act. Things won't happen > > if we don't. > > I urge Indians to assert India's secularism and nationalism to fight > > alienation of the Muslim community from Indian mainstream. This battle > > is the easier one to win – there are hundreds of millions of > > reasonable Indians, the Indian constitution, the liberal press, the > > legacy of our freedom-generation, and truth and justice on our side. > > > > I also urge Indians to fight Pakistani supremacy of subcontinental > > Islam from the outside. That is the root of all our problems. That is > > the key battle in India's war against communalism. We must learn to > > say, "Thanks, but no thanks. I understand what you mean, but this is > > not really true" to anyone who stresses commonalities of any sort in > > the subcontinent. > > > > Who will go first? > > > > Based on the concept of ownership of our destiny, what are the answers > > to these questions: > > > > "But how can non-Muslims claim that Islam in the subcontinent is > > Indian when it is represented by Pakistan and Indian Muslims > > themselves imply so?" > > > > "How can Indian Muslims make the Indo-centric claim when there is a > > genuine sense of their alienation in India and rest of Indian society > > accuses them of siding with Pakistan. We cannot move against Pakstani > > Muslims. There is a lot in common between us." > > > > I don't know! I am definitely going, in my own way. That I know. I > > will not ever treat any Indian by as automatically allied with a > > foreign, inimical power. I will continue making people aware of the > > need to end the subcontinental Islam-Pakistan association and replace > > it with Islam-India. > > > > We shall NOT vilify. We shall have faith. > > > > Indians should stop vilifying each other. Not because it would be > > saintly to do so, but because it only weakens our unity. > > > > Our nationalism and our constitution are solid stuff. Our greatest > > generation did their job well. If we must challenge our fellow > > Indians, invoke these instruments. Face with stead-fast stoicism any > > slurs, any accusations of you being an anti-Indian Muslim or a > > communal Hindutvawadi. Let the diatribe die down. Repeat your > > arguments invoking our nationalism, constitution, and your reasoning > > again. Do not ask anyone to 'prove' his or her patriotism. It's > > demeaning to do so. > > > > Satyameva Jayate – truth alone triumphs. If you are right, you will > > win. Have faith in our country and in every Indians' goodness and > > genuine attachment to their land. > > > > Augmenting India's ideological basis > > > > Earlier I mentioned that our work on Indian nationhood is not a frozen > > process, but a continuing one. We can and must correct any earlier > > mistakes that continue to torment India's communal harmony. > > > > If the greatest challenge the freedom-generation faced was ending the > > British rule and forming a stable republic, the greatest challenge > > before us is to take back leadership of subcontinental Islam from > > Pakistan. Our challenge is to do this without sacrificing India's > > secular nature. > > > > To tackle our new communal challenges in the 21st century, I propose > > the following: > > 1. Secularism will continue to remain the Indian union's lynch > > pin. It > > should not, however, require any particular religious group's giving > > up their right to assert religious solidarity. We should genuinely > > address any concerns about hypocrisy in the name of secularism. > > > > 2. India is a mature concept, and we should actively use it to tackle > > the challenges before us. Secularism is an integral part of our > > nationhood and a historically irreversible development. It follows > > that religionalism – wherever it is practised – is distinctly > > un-Indian. Within India, it is also anti-Indian in the sense that they > > weaken India and goes against its spirit. > > > > 3. The natural heir to Islamic civilisation in the subcontinent is > > India. Subcontinental Islam has always been an Indian phenomenon. > > Pakistan's oft-reinforced association with Indian Muslims must be > > destroyed. > > > > 4. India's brotherhood with its neighbours is dying. Soon there will > > be an Indian generation which doesn't have a single Indian born before > > partition. Every single human in the subcontinent would have been born > > in the countries as they existed after partition. The continuing > > attempts to maintain an unnatural bonhomie with India's hostile > > neighbours is not a tenable project - Pakistan has moved too far away > > from what was once India. > > > > Indian Muslims. India's Islam. > > > > A shockingly large amount of our national energy is wasted in > > countering the effects of Islam-Pakistan hyphenation in the > > subcontinent. > > > > The solution is simple. Reclaim the part of Indian identity that was > > robbed of us some 60 years back. If India is Hindu, then for similar > > reasons, it is also Buddhist, Sikh, Christian - and Islamic. Purported > > authority over sub-continental Islam by other entities in the > > subcontinent is an outrageous farce that must be ended right away. > > > > There is no obligation to do this meekly. India doesn't have > > merely a > > substantial claim or merely an equal claim. It simply has more right > > to subcontinental Islamic heritage than anyone else by an > > overwhelmingly large margin, period. We must use it for our national > > well-being. > > > > Who can assert subcontinental Islam's Indian nature boldly, loudly, > > without an iota of self-doubt or hesitation? Who needs this to be done > > most urgently? Who suffers from a deprivation of their right to belong > > to India the most? The Hindus? Sikhs? Buddhists? Christians? Jains? > > Clearly not. Who else? > > > > The Indian Muslims. The others are left distinctly poorer and their > > country's communal harmony stressed, but their Indian genuineness is > > unquestioned within India and the world over. There is not going > > to be > > an un-Indian leader-nation for India's Sikhs, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists > > and Christians in our neighbourhood any time soon. > > > > http://indianmuslims.in/indias-islam/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping_________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=220 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. 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Try it now. _________________________________________________________________ Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186 From tulunadu at hotmail.com Mon Jan 21 13:23:25 2008 From: tulunadu at hotmail.com (Krishna Chaithanya) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 13:23:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome In-Reply-To: <816418.8207.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <816418.8207.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: HUMAN BEING is a HUMAN BEING. There is no Hindu Human or Muslim Human or Christian Human. Likewise Indian is an Indian. You give a call to all the Indians to organise a road show against terrorism. Every Indian who understands the brutality of terrorism will join. Every Indian who wants a safe living environment will join. Organise it collectively. If your efforts are honest and sincere it will be the most touching roadshow. Bharat mata ki Jai is reduced to a slogan. Slogans ican not always inspire people. Make people feel Bharatmata, then they will say 'Jaya ho'. With words, slogans and force you cant make people feel a nation. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:29:00 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com CC: reader-list at sarai.net I again say.. I do not hate them... My language might be tough... But I want them to become Indian Muslim rather then Islamic Muslim... I want them to join our slogan of 'Bharat mata ki Jai'.. which Bukhari and the whole mulim community have rejected... I want them to join a road show against terrorism.. I never wanted them to tell me Quran... I never wanted them to kill us when we are worshipping our dieties in temples in the name of Idolators as said in Quran.. I want them to come out of those killing attitude and join the loving attitude... But I am finding that Hindus are the first enemy of Hindus... They have forgotten to live... They are already dead (this is what Lord Krishna exactly meant in 11th chapter when he showed Arjuna that they have already been killed)... and hence it is easy for Islam or Christianity to easily do thousands of Conversion... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:42:49 AM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome Glad to know that the supreme being has chosen you to save the nation Every religious fundamentalist believes that he is the chosen one and his religion is the only path May the god bless you Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:20:59 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com You are not to decide the right path... You are not among ones who can save the nation... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:43:30 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome You are the best human I've ever come across. I can feel your energy,very vinrant, unfortunately it has not found the right path God bless you Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:37:00 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com You first sacrifice your house to a Muslim.. And then we will think about Kashmir... You are an Idiot... and an Anti-National... Absolutely no doubt.. People like you will create many Kashmirs.. and get every Hindu killed... It is better you convert... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:37:51 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome I'v no problem accepting Kashmir as a country, why not the Govt. accept it? why should we sacrifice our soldiers there? How much resources we have wasted on Kashmir all these years? how many people we'v got killed? Is there any meaning to it. Isn't it stupid- instead of holding what is with us tight, we focused a lot on Kashmir and allowed the fire to spread to other regions. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:47:47 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com Yes.. I mean it... Because Kashmir is virtually a country now.. It is army of India that is still holding it.. And Muslims don't want that.. This is the reason, you find so much of Muslims shouting on Army.. This is the truth... Accept or Reject is your choice... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:10:18 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome I can start quoting dates with killing counts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... Correct yourself please... You'v said countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and KASHMIR....! > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:21:53 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com; kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > Don't mislead... > The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to India (all HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India... (I will get the Video uploaded on UTube on this, as this was shown by an external news channel)... and you say, women are raped in India.. > > You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of having more than one wife.. there is no freedom to women to report rapes... who will show what happens in your community... The Quran says them all... and I have all senteces of Quran right with me.... Believe me, all awaken Hindus are now reading Quran... they all know what is there in that book... > So, Muslims cannot fool the world any more that Quran teaches Peace... and Islam is a peaceful religion... > > Modi is a simple indication, what Hindus are now thinking... It is Muslims who have to think now... they have created this world a land of havoc... Everywhere they are simply engaged in Killing.... > They even kill each other, as in Iraq and now in Pakistan... And they are seriously killing Hindus like anything.... If this is again refuted... I can start quoting dates with killing counts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... > > I don't know, what is in their head.... How do they get so easily terrorised... What do they get in believing that killign an Idolator is a work of God... It is stupid... and yet they all are keeping this faith in their head.... > they all are not engaged in killing, but they all are engaged in supporting this act... > Quran says, forgive the Idolators only if they accept Islam... and Quran says this right from second Surah to the last one... > > Why? Our religion don't teach about this variance at all... Geeta teaches how to unite, how to live with respective with each other, how to love, how to perform duty... Why can't you teach peace... > > Why can't you understand that Nature has created every creature (of all species) unique and different.. Nature has produced variance so that creatures can live with respect to each other... A specie is not naturally allowed to kill the same specie.. except for humans.. where humans are killing humans... > > Let India live with its heritage of Hindutva... Thousands of years of killing and enforcement have failed to eliminate Hindus... Another thousand will also fail... Because nature will keep the variance alive... But the attempt of Islam and christianity would only produce killing of innocent people... > > Hindus would kill muslims only during riots or war... But Muslim would kill always for religious reasons... > Please stop talking all these things.. > Please talk peace... > Please talk how to proliferate the nation.. > Please suggest how to remove the Quranic Islam and produce Indian Islam... > Please stop attacking Hindus, Modi and Army... > Please, please, please.... > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Zainab Bawa > To: Kshmendra Kaul ; sarai list > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 3:42:08 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > Dear Kshmendra and all your supporters and back slappers, > > You can easily pinpoint Oishik for his outburst of anger and frustration and > then state that because he (mis)directed his anger at Vedavati and company, > he has no right to talk about the abuse of Manipuri women at the hands of > the Indian state appointed soldiers there. How about for a moment > questioning Lady Chanchal and her remarks and for once again coming back to > the issue that Oishik has tried to raise - the rape of women at the hands of > state appointed army and the manifestations of the state's violence at > women? > > Chanchal diverted the topic by once again going back to her pet peeve of > Islam and Muslim and her hang ups of some frozen history that she loves to > imagine. I pointed out to her that it has nothing to do with Hindu-Muslim > populations and Hindu-Muslim army soldiers but a larger question and concern > about women being direct targets of state violence (with that state violence > and injustice also being responsible for the rise of all kinds of other > movements to combat it). I then pointed to Chanchal how I have also been > eve-teased in Srinagar by soldiers. No, they did not come to ask me whether > I was Hindu or Muslim but made lewd remarks simply because I was woman and > bear breasts and bosom on my person. I also want to clarify that it not > about the soldiers themselves, but about the institutions and the systems > that get perpetrated within the structure of the conflict and occupation of > space. Chanchal immediately retorted saying that because I happen to be > "Muslim", I am likely to complain about being eve teased. *What kind of a > patriarchal and discriminatory remark is this?* This does not come to your > attention but Oishik's suggestion of anal stimulation immediately strikes > you and you make claims about the mothers and sisters of the world. You > don't recognize that we have turned this into a battle of whose position is > right and backslapping. In our egostical positions and pride and victimized > states, as Gowhar and others have rightly pointed out, we fail to see who > suffers - children who are beaten by the army, women who are serially raped > and butchered, men whose psyches have been muted by the violences, families > that continue to suffer the losses of their loved ones, etc. and this is not > restricted to Kashmir, but to violence all over the world. But perhaps, you > would brush this aside by exclaiming that these are standard complaints of > Muslims. And then you cleverly subvert every issue, incidence and event to > Kashmir and to Muslims. Clever you! > > On this note, having personally known Oishik, I vouch for him as a very > sincere, honest and well-meaning person. One remark of anger and frustration > does not define a person's overall political commitments and thoughts. And > this would apply to my not boxing either of you as good or bad people on the > basis of your positions. > > Best, > > Zainab > > *P.S. Any immediate retort/s to this email will be and ought to be > categorically ignored. * > > > On Jan 20, 2008 3:05 PM, wrote: > > > Well said, with lal salaaam. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:48 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > To: sarai list > > > > > Oishik > > > > > > 1. Thank you for the suggestion directed to me. It does not > > > interest me. I too have some suggestions for you. > > > > > > 2. You seem to be obsessed with what you have experienced and > > > suggested. You see a lot of merit in it. > > > > > > 3. Charitable soul that you are, you must have promoted it to > > > your circle of family and friends. > > > > > > 4. OISHIT, since there might be others of your kind who might > > > not find your suggestions/language obscene and crude, you must > > > convince them about it. You must provide references for them on > > > the efficacy of your suggestion. > > > > > > 5. So OISHIT, I presume we will get testimonials from your > > > mother, sisters (if any), daughters (if any) and others to whom > > > you must have recommended the stimulation. They certainly would > > > have respected your suggestion. Maybe you even helped them in the > > > processes in the course of convincing them that your suggestion on > > > means to experience pleasure is not abuse. You must mention the > > > role played by you. > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > > > Kshmendra: > > > > > > That was not meant to be an abuse at all... it was meant to > > > suggest a means to experience anal stimulation that can be > > > orgasmic... I have tried it... so suggested that Vedavati do the > > > same... you could also do the same... actually all the HINDUS who > > > are obsessing about nationalism on this listserv should do the > > > same... they'll realise that there are better and more enjoyable -- > > > and of course more useful things in life to do than spew virulent > > > intolerance. Suggesting means to experience pleasure is not abuse, > > > I'm sure you'll agree. > > > > > > And I am overwhelmed with the kind of response my comments have > > > attracted -- that's the way to keep the Hindu bullshitters engaged > > > I can clearly see. > > > > > > If you find this mail to be crude and obscene as well -- I > > > would've made my point. > > > > > > Cheers... > > > > > > Oishik > > > > > > On Jan 19, 2008 3:16 AM, Kshmendra Kaul > > > wrote: > > > It is ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to > > > the notice of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against > > > abuse directed at them. > > > > > > Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI) > > > was the one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and > > > obscene manner. > > > > > > Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would > > > have to say to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights" > > > (sic). > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > > Try it now. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > > Room 016 B > > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > > > 416.876.7926 > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > > Try it now. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Fly HYD-BLR for Rs.499 Log on to MakeMyTrip! Check it out! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. It's about getting married. Click here! Try it! Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Mon Jan 21 13:39:23 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 00:09:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome Message-ID: <776211.49174.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This is your notion.. Not a reality.. There are many such roadshows.. but what you say has never found to be applied... Even today, if you happen to be in Bangalore... Muslims celebrate with Crackers when Pakistan wins a Cricket match with India... and stupid Hindus cannot stop this.. Talk reality.. Your humanity is of no value for hungry animals... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:23:25 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome HUMAN BEING is a HUMAN BEING. There is no Hindu Human or Muslim Human or Christian Human. Likewise Indian is an Indian. You give a call to all the Indians to organise a road show against terrorism. Every Indian who understands the brutality of terrorism will join. Every Indian who wants a safe living environment will join. Organise it collectively. If your efforts are honest and sincere it will be the most touching roadshow. Bharat mata ki Jai is reduced to a slogan. Slogans ican not always inspire people. Make people feel Bharatmata, then they will say 'Jaya ho'. With words, slogans and force you cant make people feel a nation. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:29:00 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com CC: reader-list at sarai.net I again say.. I do not hate them... My language might be tough... But I want them to become Indian Muslim rather then Islamic Muslim... I want them to join our slogan of 'Bharat mata ki Jai'.. which Bukhari and the whole mulim community have rejected... I want them to join a road show against terrorism.. I never wanted them to tell me Quran... I never wanted them to kill us when we are worshipping our dieties in temples in the name of Idolators as said in Quran.. I want them to come out of those killing attitude and join the loving attitude... But I am finding that Hindus are the first enemy of Hindus... They have forgotten to live... They are already dead (this is what Lord Krishna exactly meant in 11th chapter when he showed Arjuna that they have already been killed)... and hence it is easy for Islam or Christianity to easily do thousands of Conversion... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:42:49 AM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome Glad to know that the supreme being has chosen you to save the nation Every religious fundamentalist believes that he is the chosen one and his religion is the only path May the god bless you Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:20:59 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com You are not to decide the right path... You are not among ones who can save the nation... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:43:30 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome You are the best human I've ever come across. I can feel your energy,very vinrant, unfortunately it has not found the right path God bless you Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:37:00 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com You first sacrifice your house to a Muslim.. And then we will think about Kashmir... You are an Idiot... and an Anti-National... Absolutely no doubt.. People like you will create many Kashmirs.. and get every Hindu killed... It is better you convert... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:37:51 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome I'v no problem accepting Kashmir as a country, why not the Govt. accept it? why should we sacrifice our soldiers there? How much resources we have wasted on Kashmir all these years? how many people we'v got killed? Is there any meaning to it. Isn't it stupid- instead of holding what is with us tight, we focused a lot on Kashmir and allowed the fire to spread to other regions. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:47:47 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com Yes.. I mean it... Because Kashmir is virtually a country now.. It is army of India that is still holding it.. And Muslims don't want that.. This is the reason, you find so much of Muslims shouting on Army.. This is the truth... Accept or Reject is your choice... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:10:18 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome I can start quoting dates with killingcounts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... Correct yourself please... You'v said countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and KASHMIR....! > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:21:53 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com; kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > Don't mislead... > The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to India (all HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India... (I will get the Video uploaded on UTube on this, as this was shown by an external news channel)... and you say, women are raped in India.. > > You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of having more than one wife.. there is no freedom to women to report rapes... who will show what happens in your community... The Quran says them all... and I have all senteces of Quran right with me.... Believe me, all awaken Hindus are now reading Quran... they all know what is there in that book... > So, Muslims cannot fool the world any more that Quran teaches Peace... and Islam is a peaceful religion... > > Modi is a simple indication, what Hindus are now thinking... It is Muslims who have to think now... they have created this world a land of havoc... Everywhere they are simply engaged in Killing.... > They even kill each other, as in Iraq and now in Pakistan... And they are seriously killing Hindus like anything.... If this is again refuted... I can start quoting dates with killing counts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... > > I don't know, what is in their head.... How do they get so easily terrorised... What do they get in believing that killign an Idolator is a work of God... It is stupid... and yet they all are keeping this faith in their head.... > they all are not engaged in killing, but they all are engaged in supporting this act... > Quran says, forgive the Idolators only if they accept Islam... and Quran says this right from second Surah to the last one... > > Why? Our religion don't teach about this variance at all... Geeta teaches how to unite, how to live with respective with each other, how to love, how to perform duty... Why can't you teach peace... > > Why can't you understand that Nature has created every creature (of all species) unique and different.. Nature has produced variance so that creatures can live with respect to each other... A specie is not naturally allowed to kill the same specie.. except for humans.. where humans are killing humans... > > Let India live with its heritage of Hindutva... Thousands of years of killing and enforcement have failed to eliminate Hindus... Another thousand will also fail... Because nature will keep the variance alive... But the attempt of Islam and christianity would only produce killing of innocent people... > > Hindus would kill muslims only during riots or war... But Muslim would kill always for religious reasons... > Please stop talking all these things.. > Please talk peace... > Please talk how to proliferate the nation.. > Please suggest how to remove the Quranic Islam and produce Indian Islam... > Please stop attacking Hindus, Modi and Army... > Please, please, please.... > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Zainab Bawa > To: Kshmendra Kaul ; sarai list > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 3:42:08 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > Dear Kshmendra and all your supporters and back slappers, > > You can easily pinpoint Oishik for his outburst of anger and frustration and > then state that because he (mis)directed his anger at Vedavati and company, > he has no right to talk about the abuse of Manipuri women at the hands of > the Indian state appointed soldiers there. How about for a moment > questioning Lady Chanchal and her remarks and for once again coming back to > the issue that Oishik has tried to raise - the rape of women at the hands of > state appointed army and the manifestations of the state's violence at > women? > > Chanchal diverted the topic by once again going back to her pet peeve of > Islam and Muslim and her hang ups of some frozen history that she loves to > imagine. I pointed out to her that it has nothing to do with Hindu-Muslim > populations and Hindu-Muslim army soldiers but a larger question and concern > about women being direct targets of state violence (with that state violence > and injustice also being responsible for the rise of all kinds of other > movements to combat it). I then pointed to Chanchal how I have also been > eve-teased in Srinagar by soldiers. No, they did not come to ask me whether > I was Hindu or Muslim but made lewd remarks simply because I was woman and > bear breasts and bosom on my person. I also want to clarify that it not > about the soldiers themselves, but about the institutions and the systems > that get perpetrated within the structure of the conflict and occupation of > space. Chanchal immediately retorted saying that because I happen to be > "Muslim", I am likely to complain about being eve teased. *What kind of a > patriarchal and discriminatory remark is this?* This does not come to your > attention but Oishik's suggestion of anal stimulation immediately strikes > you and you make claims about the mothers and sisters of the world. You > don't recognize that we have turned this into a battle of whose position is > right and backslapping. In our egostical positions and pride and victimized > states, as Gowhar and others have rightly pointed out, we fail to see who > suffers - children who are beaten by the army, women who are serially raped > and butchered, men whose psyches have been muted by the violences, families > that continue to suffer the losses of their loved ones, etc. and this is not > restricted to Kashmir, but to violence all over the world. But perhaps, you > would brush this aside by exclaiming that these are standard complaints of > Muslims. And then you cleverly subvert every issue, incidence and event to > Kashmir and to Muslims. Clever you! > > On this note, having personally known Oishik, I vouch for him as a very > sincere, honest and well-meaning person. One remark of anger and frustration > does not define a person's overall political commitments and thoughts. And > this would apply to my not boxing either of you as good or bad people on the > basis of your positions. > > Best, > > Zainab > > *P.S. Any immediate retort/s to this email will be and ought to be > categorically ignored. * > > > On Jan 20, 2008 3:05 PM, wrote: > > > Well said, with lal salaaam. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:48 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > To: sarai list > > > > > Oishik > > > > > > 1. Thank you for the suggestion directed to me. It does not > > > interest me. I too have some suggestions for you. > > > > > > 2. You seem to be obsessed with what you have experienced and > > > suggested. You see a lot of merit in it. > > > > > > 3. Charitable soul that you are, you must have promoted it to > > > your circle of family and friends. > > > > > > 4. OISHIT, since there might be others of your kind who might > > > not find your suggestions/language obscene and crude, you must > > > convince them about it. You must provide references for them on > > > the efficacy of your suggestion. > > > > > > 5. So OISHIT, I presume we will get testimonials from your > > > mother, sisters (if any), daughters (if any) and others to whom > > > you must have recommended the stimulation. They certainly would > > > have respected your suggestion. Maybe you even helped them in the > > > processes in the course of convincing them that your suggestion on > > > means to experience pleasure is not abuse. You must mention the > > > role played by you. > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > > > Kshmendra: > > > > > > That was not meant to be an abuse at all... it was meant to > > > suggest a means to experience anal stimulation that can be > > > orgasmic... I have tried it... so suggested that Vedavati do the > > > same... you could also do the same... actually all the HINDUS who > > > are obsessing about nationalism on this listserv should do the > > > same... they'll realise that there are better and more enjoyable -- > > > and of course more useful things in life to do than spew virulent > > > intolerance. Suggesting means to experience pleasure is not abuse, > > > I'm sure you'll agree. > > > > > > And I am overwhelmed with the kind of response my comments have > > > attracted -- that's the way to keep the Hindu bullshitters engaged > > > I can clearly see. > > > > > > If you find this mail to be crude and obscene as well -- I > > > would've made my point. > > > > > > Cheers... > > > > > > Oishik > > > > > > On Jan 19, 2008 3:16 AM, Kshmendra Kaul > > > wrote: > > > It is ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to > > > the notice of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against > > > abuse directed at them. > > > > > > Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI) > > > was the one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and > > > obscene manner. > > > > > > Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would > > > have to say to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights" > > > (sic). > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > > Try it now. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > > Room 016 B > > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > > > 416.876.7926 > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > > Try it now. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Fly HYD-BLR for Rs.499 Log on to MakeMyTrip! Check it out! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. It's about getting married. Click here! Try it! Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Jan 21 13:44:41 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 13:44:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] are these nationalists In-Reply-To: <121203.36808.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <121203.36808.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30801210014w4361d41biaad0e7ff96b4e1f2@mail.gmail.com> So chanchal, nobody ever migrated for better job opprtunities? On 1/19/08, chanchal malviya wrote: > > The numbers can be easily undestood... > What was the percentage of Hindus in Kashmir around 50 years ago (It was > nearly 25%) - what is the population now (not even 5%)... The missing > population is 20%... > So, it comes to millions.... Of which around 80% have migrated... The > remaining 20% were massacred... The numbers you can calculate... I am > talking about the data published by operating bodies of government and also > by Census of British India Empire... and you can get this through Internet > also... Jammu still holds around 25% Hindus... > > Which state of Hindu have done this to Muslims? > And which country or state of Muslims have done good to Hindus? > > Please do not mislead from reality... > Please do not talk Gujarat and if you do, please first talk about GODHRA... > > The very ground reality is - THERE IS NO TOLERANCE IN ISLAM.. From vivek at sarai.net Mon Jan 21 14:03:53 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:03:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? In-Reply-To: References: <144261.98551.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <479458F1.5060703@sarai.net> Dear Adhimoolam, Please note that there's much more going on on this list than the mails you mention below. Rather than leaving the reader list altogether, I suggest you consider using filters. With filters, you can block any messages that you don't wish to read, especially from people who post four or five messages a day, thus clogging up the inbox. See my mail on this subject at: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-November/011005.html Cheers Vivek Vetrivel Adhimoolam wrote: > I have gained lot from this list, but lately it has been increasingly > hijacked by religious fundamentalists and henceforth I have decided to opt > out. From tulunadu at hotmail.com Mon Jan 21 14:05:23 2008 From: tulunadu at hotmail.com (Krishna Chaithanya) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:05:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. In-Reply-To: <805001.40321.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <805001.40321.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I dont understand Geeta, I experience Geeta.I don't think everything is done by Supreme, I beliveMy life is my duty. spreading love is my duty. Thats why I was named after the god of love and compassion.I didn't feel that you throw the venom, I felt the venomI can feel the pain of people who's mother or sister dragged out of their homes for enjoyment. My mother or sister were not dragged out of my home for enjoyment. But my wife was dragged out of a bus in the night only because she objected to eveteasing. The supreme saved her that night. There was not a single muslim or christian in that group (She had all the symbols of a married Hindu woman). Who am I consider other's mothers or sisters as my own? then I'll have to consider others wives also as mine!Joke apart all these mother sister dialogues suit only films not real life.No one is my friend and no one is my enemy. All human interpreted books are same to me.When everything is done by the Supreme. why should I waste my time paying anyone for Conversion or helping someone to place bombsKCDate: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:53:30 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc.To: tulunadu at hotmail.comCC: reader-list at sarai.net You have never understood Geeta... You think everything is done by Supreme and he will take care of everything... Poor guy... You are running away from Duty... And your understanding is also pitiful... You feel I throw Venom... There is one thing for sure - you have not seen your mother or sister dragged out of your home for enjoyment (I say yours because you have never considered other's mothers or sisters as your own)... Talking HInduim is Venom for you... It is better you talk Bible and Quran.. That is the right place for you... and they are the real friend of yours... I do not consider Muslims as my friend, unless he allows me to enter Masjid and read Namaj and he also enters my temple to pray with me... I do not consider Christians as my friend, unless he stops to convert Hindus and let us remain as humans as we were born... May be, you can pay to Christians for Conversion and help Terrorist to place bombs - for your ideology is - everything is done by the Supreme... ----- Original Message ----From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.netSent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:07:54 PMSubject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Who am 'I' to teach anybody? The Supreme teaches everyone. The Supreme creates Adharmis and then kills them. The Supreme creates Dhryodhana and then creates Arjuna. The Supreme creates Chanchal, me and all others whom Chanchal hates or dislikes. If they are Adharmis, the Supreme will destroy them.But the Supreme makes Chanchal restless, and makes Chanchal spew venom on people who disagree with Chanchal or have a different view point. And Chanchal forgets that Chanchal is created by the Supreme and the people who disagree are also created by the Supreme and then challenges others into comparision of holy books (as if they are the menu cards of different restaurants)Do yo need words to describe MAYA?OM SHANTIKC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:24:59 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc.To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net I am sorry... I cannot dare to say that I am Lord Krishna... But I must dare to say that Arjuna need to be created... Paritranay Sadhunam Vinasaycha Dushkritam... DharmaSansthapnarthaya Sambhavami Yuge Yuge... Even God has to kill the Adharmis (be that be then Ravana or Kansa).. be that be then the Terrorised Invaders... Gandhi philosophy has weakened this nation... This nation was protected by Prithvi Raj Chauhan, Rana Pratap, Chhatrapati Shivaji, and so many of them.... This nation was also loved by Bhagat Singh, Subhas Chandra Bose, ChandraShekhar Ajad, Veer Savarkar, etc... This nation do not belong to Gandhi alone.. This nation do not belong to Sonia who has given free hands to Christians to convert Hindus to Christianity (and stupid Hindus are fighting with me here about their own Dharma without knowing anything)... This nation do not belong to Congress who have given every right to Terrorist under Bukhari to force Islamic law in various states over Hindus (and stupid Hindus do not have the gut and sense to even protect and respect their own Dharma)... I dont want to talk to you further... You can sell your house and your people in hands of Christianity and Islam... I cannot... For me my dignity lies in holding my own self and my own self lies in being a Hindu - a Bharat wasi... Let me live with this and let me have people of this thought around me... For you, teach what you are teaching me to a Muslim... and you will know the truth... ----- Original Message ----From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya ; reader-list at sarai.netSent: Monday, January 21, 2008 12:21:51 PMSubject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Are baba,Who is this 'you' and who is this 'I' who am 'I' to differentiate between what is Dharma and What is Adharma, it is already differentiated. Don't be sorry... it is understandable that in this material world any scholar would get lost.Action is living Dharma and doing Karma. When a society forgets that, to remind them invaders come. And if the invaded do not realise why they are invaded get back to theuir Dharma and Karma, they will be dominated for thousands of years. History of the world is that.Are you claiming that you are lord Krishna and therefore talking of creating Arjuna....?I would say blasphemy!KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:37:00 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc.To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net After reading Bhagwad Geeta, if you are not able to differentiate between what is Dhrama and what is Adharma... What is Sattvika and what is Tamasika... I am sorry... Bhagwad Geeta is not a a book for those who have given up action... It is for those who knows what is duty (not religion for Dharma means duty in Hinduism and not Religion, unlike all other religion).... And now when Adharma is coming on top of Dharma, it is now time to create Arjuna, who can understand Geeta and perform action in protection of Dharma... ----- Original Message ----From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netSent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:48:27 AMSubject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Dear Chanchal,Who is this 'You' that you mention. Am I not you...? are you not me...? who is the thinker...? Mantra is not for thinking it is for feeling... experiencing. May be you should read Sri Mad Bagavadgeeta again.KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:22:05 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc.To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net You are a selfish person... Realizing Shanti only for you... The mantra is far deep than you can even think... ----- Original Message ----From: Krishna Chaithanya To: reader-list at sarai.net; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.comSent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:37:06 PMSubject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. What I know can not be expressed in words. I feel peace within me when I Chant OM SHANTHI SHANTHI SHANTHI. It appears like you you understand what is OM and why there is Three Shanthi. But how come there is no sign of peace!I don't care if any other religion has such slogans in their religious books. It doesn't make any difference to my belief and faith in the Supreme.KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:44:33 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc.To: tulunadu at hotmail.com Do you understand also... what is OM and why is there Three Shanti... Do you know any other religion which has such slogans in their religious books... ----- Original Message ----From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:28:20 PMSubject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Om Shanthi Shanti Shanti hiKC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:53:35 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc.To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net How many bombs you have thrown.. Ask this to them... Not us... We are reacting.. They are acting... ----- Original Message ----From: Krishna Chaithanya To: reader-list at sarai.netSent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:19:37 PMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc.Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society....!?We bomb them and they bomb usand we bomb themand they bomb us together we bomb usthen who is left to bomb...?KC> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:33:09 +0500> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net> To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc.> > Hi, true, it for too long hindus have been tolerent leading to a sarcastic comment that they are cowards, may be Nehru was coward when India was divided for his greed,may be Krishna menon loved chinese vaginas more than indian ones, but now it is time that hindu understood the value of SAMA, Dana, BHEDHA are over, dandam dashagunam bhaveth. Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society.> > ----- Original Message -----> From: chanchal malviya > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:24 am> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc.> To: Javed , reader-list at sarai.net> > > It is time for Hindus to rise now...> > And no dicussion or virtual communities can stop it...> > > > Swami Vivekanand said - India have enough of religion..> > And it is time now to say this to Christian and Muslims who force > > conversions the same thing..> > If Sanskrit is the mother of all languages, Hinduism is the mother > > of all Religions... (But two religions have in particular always > > learnt to abuse their mother(Hinduism) - Islam and Christianity)...> > It is time now to stop the nation from producing more Kashmirs...> > It is time now to stop the non-Independent Religious India...> > > > So go on my dear friends as much as you like to abuse Hindus..> > It hardly matters now..> > > > Ramayan is proving to be a reality, Mahabharat is a reality..> > History will also change.. > > It is Hindus that have taught peace to the world.. but to do that > > again, the two attackers have to be checked now..> > People are doing that.. And will do that..> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----> > From: Javed > > To: reader-list at sarai.net> > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 6:00:16 PM> > Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc.> > > > India's Islam> > by Arun Nair> > > > Firstly, I must apologise if this article smacks of an impolite> > urgency and prescriptive-ness. I mean not to be arrogant, but as> > someone addressing you on a matter of deep concern to us all, I felt> > that there was little room for ceremonial apologies before every> > sentence. Also, as an Indian middle-class Hindu who grew up in the> > Babri-masjid 90s, it is easy for me to say some of the things I say> > here.> > > > Secondly, I address you, the reader, as an Indian citizen, not as a> > saintly Kabir or Gandhi preaching love for humanity. Our collective> > interests are being threatened by communal forces from within and> > without. WE MUST ACT. We must not merely lament about our respective> > versions of helplessnesses and others' faults. We are free today> > because India's greatest generation shook off the ghosts that> > bedevilled them, and took action to protect our interests. I implore> > you to continue that legacy.> > > > Thirdly, while I will go into what in my opinion are highly plausible> > theories of Indian nationhood and nationalism, my primary aim here is> > not to write any treatise on politics or sociology, but to protect our> > rights to belong equally to India – our common ancestral land – as> > Indians, and as free, dignified humans.> > > > Fourthly, my ideas will be presented largely based on first> > principles, also known as common-sense.> > > > My thesis is this: India must boldly assert its claim on Islamic> > civilisation in the subcontinent. That is the key to end our communal> > woes.> > > > This does not mean that India must become Islamic, or that Indian> > Muslims must be somehow Hinduised. The idea, instead, is to campaign> > relentlessly for India's Islamic civilisational authenticity.> > > > In the Indian psyche, Pakistan stands for Islam. Sadly for us and> > admittedly in a weaker form, Islam is also synonymous with Pakistan> > and everything Pakistani. This wouldn't have been so bad if Pakistan> > wasn't, well, un-Indian. We must use every tool at our disposal as a> > people to destroy the entrenched idea of Pakistani ownership of> > subcontinental Islam from within India. More importantly, this idea> > must be attacked from without it, because that is where it originates.> > > > Our chief weapon to eliminate Islam-Pakistan hyphenation from the> > subcontinent will be an authentic claim: the centre of Islamic> > civilisation in South Asia has always been undivided India, and after> > partition, India is its natural primary heir. The fact that a few> > million Muslims left India during partition to settle in our erstwhile> > outlying provinces doesn't change this. Neither does the fact that the> > Indian people chose a progressive, secular, democratic polity for> > their republic.> > > > In our minds and in the world's view, subcontinental Islam is under> > Pakistani occupation. The historical Indo-centric nature of> > subcontinental Islam should be used to throw off this psychological> > yoke. I urge Indians to rally together once again as our greatest> > generation did to protect our collective interests as the people of> > India. I urge friends of India all over the world to join us. Both in> > terms of geography and spirit, Islam in the subcontinent that> > coexisted and flourished alongside Indic cultures, has always been> > more Indian than Pakistani. If any single country represents> > subcontinental Islam as it historically was, it is India. Not> > Pakistan.> > > > India's Mughals. India's Qutub Minar, Gol Gumaz, and Taj Mahal.> > India's Kabir. India's Tipu Sultan, Shah Jahan, Akbar, and, why not,> > Aurangazeb. India's Urdu. India's Ghalib and Khusro. India's Delhi,> > Lucknow, Mysore, Hyderabad, Malabar, and Agra.> > > > Good history has to be deliberately written> > > > The people of India inherited thousands of years of history and> > associated baggage that we didn't really ask for.> > > > Keep in mind though that history is not a dead object - it is> > unfurling even as you read this. We may not be able to change what> > happened in India 200 years ago. But 200 years from now when people> > look back, they will see the Indian history that our generation wrote.> > It becomes then our duty, both as Indians and as sensible humans, to> > write it well.> > > > It is a great privilege to deliberately be able to write a part of> > something grand like the history of India. The first generation of> > Indians who did a coordinated job of writing our history was the one> > that won us our independence – our "freedom-generation". They could> > have attempted to write their Indian chapter any way they wanted to.> > We could have had a dark, China-style communism, for instance. But,> > given the Indian context, the freedom-generation chose the most> > egalitarian, elegant, and humanist theme they could come up with: a> > secular, liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, that takes its> > strength from its inherent pluralism and its inheritance of one of> > mankind's greatest civilisations.> > > > The freedom-generation's legacy for us is the deliberate and> > intelligent manner in which they forged an Indian national identity.> > Thanks to their efforts, our nationality is a solid concept. An Indian> > from Karnataka has a robust nationalistic bond with Indians say from> > Punjab, Gujarat, Assam, or Delhi. Regardless of what languages we> > speak, we all recognise Marathi, Tamil, Bengali and Telugu as Indian> > languages – ancestral assets that all Indians collectively own.> > > > It is a mistake, however, to think that the nation-building task they> > began is complete. Indian nationalism is not an idea frozen in time,> > but an evolving one. We, the successors of India's freedom-generation,> > must exercise our prerogative to define its finer contours and bring> > in new ideas to enrich it. Furthermore, we have an obligation to both> > our founding fathers and India's posterity to do this while being true> > to our quintessential Indian-ness, the just, egalitarian nature of our> > country as embodied in our constitution.> > > > Given that India's situation is not as pressing as it once was, new> > nationalist leaders – giants of the stature of Mahatma Gandhi, Khan> > Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Subhash Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh, Jawaharlal> > Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad or Vallabhai Patel – may be difficult to> > emerge. There is no need to though. We succeeded them, and we must> > take this task upon ourselves. The freedom-generation watches over us> > in the form of our fraternity as Indians which they moulded at a great> > cost, and our constitution.> > > > Indian Nationalism - the idea of Indian brotherhood> > > > Amidst all this noisy consternation of Taslima Nasrin, Babri-masjid,> > BJP-Congress etc., its easy to lose sight of the really big pictures.> > Consider, for instance, this question: what really is the essence of> > Indian nationalism? Why do we all feel so closely tied to India > > and to> > each other?> > > > My answer is that, to put it simply, without the land we call India,> > Indians either have no identity, or very anaemic identities. All> > Indians share this same curious relation to India.> > When we are born to the same human mother, we are brothers. Our> > constitution formed by our freedom-generation explicitly asserts> > fraternity among the Indian people. Fraternity – brotherhood. In what> > sense are we brothers?> > > > Indians are brothers in the sense that the motherland that birthed my> > identity, also birthed yours. India is our ancestral land, and we> > should be proud of everything associated with it. Everything in India,> > its religions, its good and its bad, its languages, its glories and> > struggles, its rivers, its emperors, its heroes and villains,> > everything – is intricately weaved into our consciousnesses of who we> > are, where we come from, what our place in this world is, and how> > other humans see us. Without that identity, we are crippled.> > > > Ours is no ordinary brotherhood. Indian people didn't come into being> > merely a few centuries ago. We are an ancient civilisation, and what> > we have is a civlisational brotherhood – a bond arising from all of> > our belonging to the civilisation that unfolded in the same land,> > India. That brotherhood was formally declared through the constitution> > in 1949, but it existed much before that. Before our greatest> > generation gave it a concrete wording in the 20th century, it was well> > moulded in the crucible that is our land, in the fire of the previous> > several dozen, if not more, centuries.> > > > Every country of the world has stories that define their national> > essences. What is the most essential feature of Indian > > nationalism? It> > is our Indian identity – our being tied to India, and our> > civilisational brotherhood to each other in being bonded so. All> > Indians, regardless of their religion or language, has this bond with> > India and with each other.> > Indians must pause for a while and think why our anthem's going over> > our landmarks is so emotive. Or why Hindu-Muslim-Sikh-Christian> > insignia are powerful. Or why merely thinking of our history, or our> > Kerala, Karnataka, Maharashtra, UP, Punjab and Bengal moves all of us> > equally.> > > > It's because they remind us of our organic ties to India, and the> > brotherhood that we have with each other. This natural bond given to> > us by our glorious and at times bloody history is important. If we> > don't uphold this bond with the ferocity that our greatest generation> > did, if we don't use it to protect our common interests, our country> > will remain weak.> > > > Our country's nature> > > > What is the nature of our country? What does it mean for something > > to be Indian?> > For one, if all of us Indians could get together today and declare in> > one voice that India stands for certain values, then that would be an> > authoritative statement. India is what Indians say it is. If, say, the> > people of the then-Indian civilisation – Hindus, Muslims, Christians,> > Buddhists, Sikhs, and Jains – had made such a statement 400 years ago> > and preserved its spirit through centuries, that would have probably> > have been one of the greatest Indian texts.> > > > If you will recall, a very similar event actually did happen in 1949,> > when the founding fathers of the Indian republic adopted, enacted, and> > gave to ourselves - the sovereign people of India - our constitution.> > The preamble reads,> > > > "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India> > into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure> > to all its citizens:> > JUSTICE, social, economic and political;> > LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship;> > EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among them all> > FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and> > integrity of the Nation.> > IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949,> > do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION."> > > > In an absolute sense, the values of justice, liberty, and equality> > have an intuitive appeal to all humans everywhere. However, the> > formidable authority of our constitution comes from the crushed but> > proud people who paid a very high price for our right to live as> > equals and as dignified humans in India. We must take their word for> > what India is – they must have known and dreamt quite a bit about it.> > > > India's greatest generation definitely realised that divisivism,> > self-doubt, and other demons from our past would haunt the republic> > they formed. Which is why the constitution is important. It helps us> > protect our country from ourselves.> > > > The Constitution. Indian Nationalism. How we will defend India.> > > > Those who doubt the moral power of our freedom-generation, our> > constitutional ethos, and Indian nationalism need only look at> > Pakistan, which renounced all these in its attempts not to be seen as> > Indian. Pakistan's leaders, in trying to defend their divisve national> > philosophy, forced the most horrible bankruptcy on its people.> > > > Rather than using Indian nationalism and the constitution to tackle> > our communal issues, I am appalled at the general trend to merely> > lament that India is on its way to being declared an non-secular state> > - the hundreds of millions of Indians fully intent on preventing this> > notwithstanding.> > > > Pakistan-style Islamism, Ummah-isation of Hinduism, alienation of > > Indian Muslims> > > > There are three major trends in India today that are relevant to > > our topic.> > > > Firstly, India has very serious conflicts of interest with Pakistan.> > We have gone to war with that country several times. Its society has> > issues with radicalisation and a general religious orthodoxy. Its> > regimes have relentlessly attacked India's internal fault-lines over> > the past few decades in the name of Islam. Tens of thousands of Indian> > soldiers have died defending our country against them. It is> > distinctly un-Indian and anti-Indian.> > > > Secondly, Hinduism is, for the lack of a better word, Ummah-ising, and> > this at times takes horrifyingly militant forms. I, given my personal> > biases, am all for Hindu solidarity and abolishing pseudo-secularism.> > However, an argument for Hindu-solidarity should not be allowed to> > take the form of an un-Indian religionalism that goes against the very> > spirit of India.> > > > Thirdly, Indian Muslims feel alienated from their own country. In> > India, Pakistan is synonymous with Islam. Unfortunately, Islam is also> > weakly synonymous with Pakistan. This has significantly undermined> > Indian Muslims' political standing in India vis-a-vis their fellow> > citizens.> > > > The havoc all this has wreaked on our society must not be ignored.> > India was home to one of humanity's greatest Islamic cultures for well> > over 1000 years. It is not, by any means, a dead part of our > > culture -> > nearly 160 million Indians are Muslims, several national icons are> > Muslims, mosques and Islamic architecture litter the country, and> > Muslim holidays are shared by all. And yet, to a lot of Indians, Islam> > doesn't feel Indian, but Pakistani. Despite their respective religious> > majorities, it is odd that Buddhism doesn't feel Sri Lankan, or> > Hinduism itself, Nepali.> > > > The partition of India and secular India's deprivation of its Islamic> > authenticity> > > > Has anyone thought what has actually happened here? Why is it that in> > India, an ancient civilisational land which has a unique Islamic> > culture just like Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, Islam is seen as somehow> > foreign? That is not because of Islam's being inconsistent with India> > – 1000 years and more of history and our combined freedom struggle> > should have proven this by now.> > > > During partition, founders of Pakistan expropriated the subcontinent's> > Islamic identity for defining their nation, Pakistan. Pakistan's> > struggle to keep its ideology alive has robbed us of our Islamic> > authenticity. India's secular nature not-withstanding, the ardour with> > which Pakistan argued itsideology and pushed its exclusivist national> > philosophy within the larger Islamic community ensured that it gained> > some traction in the Indian society. Pakistan's military conflicts> > with "Hindu" India only amplified this.> > > > It only takes a few of decades of intense activity for a new Zeitgeist> > to take root in a society. Consider denazification of Germany, China's> > turn into capitalism, and India's own economic liberalisation. 30> > years – that is all it takes for a young generation to grow up shaped> > by a pervasive ideology.> > > > Though quite smaller than India, Pakistan is by no means a tiny> > nation. It is the world's 6th most populous country, one of its major> > economies, and a prominent player during the cold war. One cannot find> > fault with it - Pakistan had to defend its national philosophy. It has> > expended a tremendous amount of national effort over the last 60 years> > in achieving a strong association between subcontinental Islam and> > itself.> > > > They have succeeded splendidly. Islam in the subcontinent today is> > seen as prominently Pakistani and India's secular fabric warped by> > that perception. Pakistan is an Islamic nation - this somehow gives> > them a stronger claim on everything Islamic in the subcontinent. The> > world simply does not recognise India's Islamic authenticity, and> > neither do many Indians within. India continues to be associated> > primarily with Hinduism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, but not Islam.> > > > Does religious brotherhood entirely negate the organic bonds a human> > has to his ancestral land and its history, and to his fellow humans> > who share the same bonds as him? I don't really know. What I do know> > is that this is not the principle on which the Indian republic was> > founded, and its definitely not an Indian value. Religious supremacism> > and breaking up of Indian people are un-Indian philosophies. It goes> > against the very spirit of our freedom struggle, nationalism, and our> > constitution.> > > > Indians must remember that new Pakistani generations do not even have> > the same right to speak for India's Muslims that their earlier> > generations might have had. Indian democracy has proven this> > unnecessary anyway.> > > > Indo-Pak culture-drift and attempts at an unnatural bonhomie> > > > There is a delusion among the political class and Indian people that> > our shared past can be used to achieve friendly relations between> > India and Pakistan. My view is that in doing so, we are only> > reinforcing the internal Islam-Pakistan hyphenation.> > > > When historical developments asunder a people, over a period of time> > the newly formed groups drift increasingly farther from one another.> > Once upon time, Myanmar and Sri Lanka were part of India, just like> > Pakistan and Bangladesh. Afghanistan was part of several Indian> > empires. Today, though at a national level we have very cordial> > relations, they are distinctly unfamiliar to us.> > > > Such a natural drift has definitely taken place between India and> > Pakistan. The strongest bond between us that keeps us in each others'> > national memories is not anything positive that we share, but the> > acrid legacy of partition. It's hard for me as an Indian, for> > instance, to imagine such an Islamism taking hold of Pakistan if it> > were under Akbar's rule. That is, if it were under genuinely> > Indian-style Islamic rule.> > > > I am not suggesting we should actively pursue enmity with Pakistan or> > vilify it. However, its being clumped together with Indian Muslims is> > simply not healthy for India. What has Pakistan's 'leadership' of> > subcontinental Muslims, its advocacy of religious supremacism within,> > and its enmity with India effectively accomplished? It has robbed> > India of its genuine Islamic authenticity in the world's eyes, and> > caused non-Muslim Indians to reject the culture of an un-Indian enemy.> > Pakistan has highlighted Indian Muslims' being Islamic and> =3E consistently de-emphasized their being Indian.> > > > Pursuing an unnatural bonhomie with Pakistan and stressing our> > similarities with them will only weaken our case for our differences,> > which are very real. To uphold our national interest, we must assert> > and amplify these differences.> > > > Replace Islam-Pakistan hyphenation with Islam-India hyphenation in the> > subcontinent> > > > I urge Indians to spearhead a change of perception of Islam in the> > subcontinent. Anything that prevents Indian Muslims' fully asserting> > their claim on India as Indian citizens is against the national> > interest. The strong association in India between subcontinental Islam> > and the present day un-Indian Pakistan must go.> > > > It is tempting to claim that all South Asian countries share Islamic> > civilization equally. It may be polite and civil to do so, and it may> > even have some historical merit, but it's a weak claim for our> > purposes. It doesn't have the necessary boldness and self-conviction> > to be effective. It also doesn't forcefully argue for India's Islamic> > authenticity. Our aim is to end Islam-Pakistan hyphenation for the> > welfare of a billion humans, not to be fair observers of history. We> > must hence push the strongest nationalistic claim possible: Islam in> > the subcontinent is Indian, and it always has been.> > > > Indian Islam never 'went' anywhere – it is alive and well amidst us.> > Our nationalism and constitution are guarantees that it will > > thrive if> > Pakistan would let go of it. When the world thinks of Hinduism in> > South Asia, it thinks of India. Sikhism, it thinks of India. Buddhism,> > India. When it thinks of Islam in South Asia, it must think of India.> > Everyone in the subcontinent will be better off. Everyone.> > > > The idea that Islam in the subcontinent is primarily Indian can gain> > currency only through a concerted nationalist campaign. No apologies> > should be made for such a movement. No one need be convinced of its> > proponents' "patriotism". The obvious worthiness of the cause, its> > truth, and its urgency are justifications enough.> > > > What ideas might such a campaign seek to make current?> > > > The countries in our region share an intertwined, messy history. We> > have a lot in common - languages, religions, culture, quirks - all> > part of our common and colourful heritage.> > > > However, if our historical and religious assets must be divided> > amongst us, then the worthiest inheritor of Islamic heritage in the> > subcontinent can only be India. Not Pakistan, not Bangladesh, not Sri> > Lanka, not Myanmar, not Nepal. India is the only nation that has been> > true to the historical spirit of Indian Islam – that of flourishing> > alongside other Indic faiths in India.> > > > Slay our demons ourselves> > > > Has it ever struck you that in our country, we have a vicious> > circularity of the following sort: we feel dismayed that the> > country/political class/leadership has done nothing for us; a form of> > apathy and resignation sets in; the country/political class/leadership> > continues to do nothing; we feel increasingly more dismayed.> > > > We are a democracy. We individually must act. Things won't happen > > if we don't.> > I urge Indians to assert India's secularism and nationalism to fight> > alienation of the Muslim community from Indian mainstream. This battle> > is the easier one to win – there are hundreds of millions of> > reasonable Indians, the Indian constitution, the liberal press, the> > legacy of our freedom-generation, and truth and justice on our side.> > > > I also urge Indians to fight Pakistani supremacy of subcontinental> > Islam from the outside. That is the root of all our problems. That is> > the key battle in India's war against communalism. We must learn to> > say, "Thanks, but no thanks. I understand what you mean, but this is> > not really true" to anyone who stresses commonalities of any sort in> > the subcontinent.> > > > Who will go first?> > > > Based on the concept of ownership of our destiny, what are the answers> > to these questions:> > > > "But how can non-Muslims claim that Islam in the subcontinent is> > Indian when it is represented by Pakistan and Indian Muslims> > themselves imply so?"> > > > "How can Indian Muslims make the Indo-centric claim when there is a> > genuine sense of their alienation in India and rest of Indian society> > accuses them of siding with Pakistan. We cannot move against Pakstani> > Muslims. There is a lot in common between us."> > > > I don't know! I am definitely going, in my own way. That I know. I> > will not ever treat any Indian by as automatically allied with a> > foreign, inimical power. I will continue making people aware of the> > need to end the subcontinental Islam-Pakistan association and replace> > it with Islam-India.> > > > We shall NOT vilify. We shall have faith.> > > > Indians should stop vilifying each other. Not because it would be> > saintly to do so, but because it only weakens our unity.> > > > Our nationalism and our constitution are solid stuff. Our greatest> > generation did their job well. If we must challenge our fellow> > Indians, invoke these instruments. Face with stead-fast stoicism any> > slurs, any accusations of you being an anti-Indian Muslim or a> > communal Hindutvawadi. Let the diatribe die down. Repeat your> > arguments invoking our nationalism, constitution, and your reasoning> > again. Do not ask anyone to 'prove' his or her patriotism. It's> > demeaning to do so.> > > > Satyameva Jayate – truth alone triumphs. If you are right, you will> > win. Have faith in our country and in every Indians' goodness and> > genuine attachment to their land.> > > > Augmenting India's ideological basis> > > > Earlier I mentioned that our work on Indian nationhood is not a frozen> > process, but a continuing one. We can and must correct any earlier> > mistakes that continue to torment India's communal harmony.> > > > If the greatest challenge the freedom-generation faced was ending the> > British rule and forming a stable republic, the greatest challenge> > before us is to take back leadership of subcontinental Islam from> > Pakistan. Our challenge is to do this without sacrificing India's> > secular nature.> > > > To tackle our new communal challenges in the 21st century, I propose> > the following:> > 1. Secularism will continue to remain the Indian union's lynch > > pin. It> > should not, however, require any particular religious group's giving> > up their right to assert religious solidarity. We should genuinely> > address any concerns about hypocrisy in the name of secularism.> > > > 2. India is a mature concept, and we should actively use it to tackle> > the challenges before us. Secularism is an integral part of our> > nationhood and a historically irreversible development. It follows> > that religionalism – wherever it is practised – is distinctly> > un-Indian. Within India, it is also anti-Indian in the sense that they> > weaken India and goes against its spirit.> > > > 3. The natural heir to Islamic civilisation in the subcontinent is> > India. Subcontinental Islam has always been an Indian phenomenon.> > Pakistan's oft-reinforced association with Indian Muslims must be> > destroyed.> > > > 4. India's brotherhood with its neighbours is dying. Soon there will> > be an Indian generation which doesn't have a single Indian born before> > partition. Every single human in the subcontinent would have been born> > in the countries as they existed after partition. The continuing> > attempts to maintain an unnatural bonhomie with India's hostile> > neighbours is not a tenable project - Pakistan has moved too far away> > from what was once India.> > > > Indian Muslims. India's Islam.> > > > A shockingly large amount of our national energy is wasted in> > countering the effects of Islam-Pakistan hyphenation in the> > subcontinent.> > > > The solution is simple. Reclaim the part of Indian identity that was> > robbed of us some 60 years back. If India is Hindu, then for similar> > reasons, it is also Buddhist, Sikh, Christian - and Islamic. Purported> > authority over sub-continental Islam by other entities in the> > subcontinent is an outrageous farce that must be ended right away.> > > > There is no obligation to do this meekly. India doesn't have > > merely a> > substantial claim or merely an equal claim. It simply has more right> > to subcontinental Islamic heritage than anyone else by an> > overwhelmingly large margin, period. We must use it for our national> > well-being.> > > > Who can assert subcontinental Islam's Indian nature boldly, loudly,> > without an iota of self-doubt or hesitation? Who needs this to be done> > most urgently? Who suffers from a deprivation of their right to belong> > to India the most? The Hindus? Sikhs? Buddhists? Christians? Jains?> > Clearly not. Who else?> > > > The Indian Muslims. The others are left distinctly poorer and their> > country's communal harmony stressed, but their Indian genuineness is> > unquestioned within India and the world over. There is not going > > to be> > an un-Indian leader-nation for India's Sikhs, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists> > and Christians in our neighbourhood any time soon.> > > > http://indianmuslims.in/indias-islam/> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-> > list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping_________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-> > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________________________________Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.inhttp://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=220_________________________________________reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.Post free auto ads on Yello Classifieds now! Try it now! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Post free auto ads on Yello Classifieds now! Try it now! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 From tulunadu at hotmail.com Mon Jan 21 14:13:05 2008 From: tulunadu at hotmail.com (Krishna Chaithanya) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:13:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome In-Reply-To: <776211.49174.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <776211.49174.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Who so ever wins in any game Lets burn crackers! Why should Hindus stop some Muslims if they burn crackers if Pakistan wins. Let them join Muslims and burn crackers to that will be the celebration of victory and of the spirit of the game. Who ever wins I don't burn crackers. It is waste of resources, energy and pollutes the environment. Don't stand in que with hungry animals! Take care KC Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 00:09:23 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com CC: reader-list at sarai.net This is your notion.. Not a reality.. There are many such roadshows.. but what you say has never found to be applied... Even today, if you happen to be in Bangalore... Muslims celebrate with Crackers when Pakistan wins a Cricket match with India... and stupid Hindus cannot stop this.. Talk reality.. Your humanity is of no value for hungry animals... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:23:25 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome HUMAN BEING is a HUMAN BEING. There is no Hindu Human or Muslim Human or Christian Human. Likewise Indian is an Indian. You give a call to all the Indians to organise a road show against terrorism. Every Indian who understands the brutality of terrorism will join. Every Indian who wants a safe living environment will join. Organise it collectively. If your efforts are honest and sincere it will be the most touching roadshow. Bharat mata ki Jai is reduced to a slogan. Slogans ican not always inspire people. Make people feel Bharatmata, then they will say 'Jaya ho'. With words, slogans and force you cant make people feel a nation. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:29:00 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com CC: reader-list at sarai.net I again say.. I do not hate them... My language might be tough... But I want them to become Indian Muslim rather then Islamic Muslim... I want them to join our slogan of 'Bharat mata ki Jai'.. which Bukhari and the whole mulim community have rejected... I want them to join a road show against terrorism.. I never wanted them to tell me Quran... I never wanted them to kill us when we are worshipping our dieties in temples in the name of Idolators as said in Quran.. I want them to come out of those killing attitude and join the loving attitude... But I am finding that Hindus are the first enemy of Hindus... They have forgotten to live... They are already dead (this is what Lord Krishna exactly meant in 11th chapter when he showed Arjuna that they have already been killed)... and hence it is easy for Islam or Christianity to easily do thousands of Conversion... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:42:49 AM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome Glad to know that the supreme being has chosen you to save the nation Every religious fundamentalist believes that he is the chosen one and his religion is the only path May the god bless you Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:20:59 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com You are not to decide the right path... You are not among ones who can save the nation... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:43:30 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome You are the best human I've ever come across. I can feel your energy,very vinrant, unfortunately it has not found the right path God bless you Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:37:00 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com You first sacrifice your house to a Muslim.. And then we will think about Kashmir... You are an Idiot... and an Anti-National... Absolutely no doubt.. People like you will create many Kashmirs.. and get every Hindu killed... It is better you convert... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:37:51 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome I'v no problem accepting Kashmir as a country, why not the Govt. accept it? why should we sacrifice our soldiers there? How much resources we have wasted on Kashmir all these years? how many people we'v got killed? Is there any meaning to it. Isn't it stupid- instead of holding what is with us tight, we focused a lot on Kashmir and allowed the fire to spread to other regions. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:47:47 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com Yes.. I mean it... Because Kashmir is virtually a country now.. It is army of India that is still holding it.. And Muslims don't want that.. This is the reason, you find so much of Muslims shouting on Army.. This is the truth... Accept or Reject is your choice... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:10:18 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome I can start quoting dates with killing counts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... Correct yourself please... You'v said countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and KASHMIR....! > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:21:53 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com; kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > Don't mislead... > The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to India (all HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India... (I will get the Video uploaded on UTube on this, as this was shown by an external news channel)... and you say, women are raped in India.. > > You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of having more than one wife.. there is no freedom to women to report rapes... who will show what happens in your community... The Quran says them all... and I have all senteces of Quran right with me.... Believe me, all awaken Hindus are now reading Quran... they all know what is there in that book... > So, Muslims cannot fool the world any more that Quran teaches Peace... and Islam is a peaceful religion... > > Modi is a simple indication, what Hindus are now thinking... It is Muslims who have to think now... they have created this world a land of havoc... Everywhere they are simply engaged in Killing.... > They even kill each other, as in Iraq and now in Pakistan... And they are seriously killing Hindus like anything.... If this is again refuted... I can start quoting dates with killing counts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... > > I don't know, what is in their head.... How do they get so easily terrorised... What do they get in believing that killign an Idolator is a work of God... It is stupid... and yet they all are keeping this faith in their head.... > they all are not engaged in killing, but they all are engaged in supporting this act... > Quran says, forgive the Idolators only if they accept Islam... and Quran says this right from second Surah to the last one... > > Why? Our religion don't teach about this variance at all... Geeta teaches how to unite, how to live with respective with each other, how to love, how to perform duty... Why can't you teach peace... > > Why can't you understand that Nature has created every creature (of all species) unique and different.. Nature has produced variance so that creatures can live with respect to each other... A specie is not naturally allowed to kill the same specie.. except for humans.. where humans are killing humans... > > Let India live with its heritage of Hindutva... Thousands of years of killing and enforcement have failed to eliminate Hindus... Another thousand will also fail... Because nature will keep the variance alive... But the attempt of Islam and christianity would only produce killing of innocent people... > > Hindus would kill muslims only during riots or war... But Muslim would kill always for religious reasons... > Please stop talking all these things.. > Please talk peace... > Please talk how to proliferate the nation.. > Please suggest how to remove the Quranic Islam and produce Indian Islam... > Please stop attacking Hindus, Modi and Army... > Please, please, please.... > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Zainab Bawa > To: Kshmendra Kaul ; sarai list > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 3:42:08 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > Dear Kshmendra and all your supporters and back slappers, > > You can easily pinpoint Oishik for his outburst of anger and frustration and > then state that because he (mis)directed his anger at Vedavati and company, > he has no right to talk about the abuse of Manipuri women at the hands of > the Indian state appointed soldiers there. How about for a moment > questioning Lady Chanchal and her remarks and for once again coming back to > the issue that Oishik has tried to raise - the rape of women at the hands of > state appointed army and the manifestations of the state's violence at > women? > > Chanchal diverted the topic by once again going back to her pet peeve of > Islam and Muslim and her hang ups of some frozen history that she loves to > imagine. I pointed out to her that it has nothing to do with Hindu-Muslim > populations and Hindu-Muslim army soldiers but a larger question and concern > about women being direct targets of state violence (with that state violence > and injustice also being responsible for the rise of all kinds of other > movements to combat it). I then pointed to Chanchal how I have also been > eve-teased in Srinagar by soldiers. No, they did not come to ask me whether > I was Hindu or Muslim but made lewd remarks simply because I was woman and > bear breasts and bosom on my person. I also want to clarify that it not > about the soldiers themselves, but about the institutions and the systems > that get perpetrated within the structure of the conflict and occupation of > space. Chanchal immediately retorted saying that because I happen to be > "Muslim", I am likely to complain about being eve teased. *What kind of a > patriarchal and discriminatory remark is this?* This does not come to your > attention but Oishik's suggestion of anal stimulation immediately strikes > you and you make claims about the mothers and sisters of the world. You > don't recognize that we have turned this into a battle of whose position is > right and backslapping. In our egostical positions and pride and victimized > states, as Gowhar and others have rightly pointed out, we fail to see who > suffers - children who are beaten by the army, women who are serially raped > and butchered, men whose psyches have been muted by the violences, families > that continue to suffer the losses of their loved ones, etc. and this is not > restricted to Kashmir, but to violence all over the world. But perhaps, you > would brush this aside by exclaiming that these are standard complaints of > Muslims. And then you cleverly subvert every issue, incidence and event to > Kashmir and to Muslims. Clever you! > > On this note, having personally known Oishik, I vouch for him as a very > sincere, honest and well-meaning person. One remark of anger and frustration > does not define a person's overall political commitments and thoughts. And > this would apply to my not boxing either of you as good or bad people on the > basis of your positions. > > Best, > > Zainab > > *P.S. Any immediate retort/s to this email will be and ought to be > categorically ignored. * > > > On Jan 20, 2008 3:05 PM, wrote: > > > Well said, with lal salaaam. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:48 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > To: sarai list > > > > > Oishik > > > > > > 1. Thank you for the suggestion directed to me. It does not > > > interest me. I too have some suggestions for you. > > > > > > 2. You seem to be obsessed with what you have experienced and > > > suggested. You see a lot of merit in it. > > > > > > 3. Charitable soul that you are, you must have promoted it to > > > your circle of family and friends. > > > > > > 4. OISHIT, since there might be others of your kind who might > > > not find your suggestions/language obscene and crude, you must > > > convince them about it. You must provide references for them on > > > the efficacy of your suggestion. > > > > > > 5. So OISHIT, I presume we will get testimonials from your > > > mother, sisters (if any), daughters (if any) and others to whom > > > you must have recommended the stimulation. They certainly would > > > have respected your suggestion. Maybe you even helped them in the > > > processes in the course of convincing them that your suggestion on > > > means to experience pleasure is not abuse. You must mention the > > > role played by you. > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > > > Kshmendra: > > > > > > That was not meant to be an abuse at all... it was meant to > > > suggest a means to experience anal stimulation that can be > > > orgasmic... I have tried it... so suggested that Vedavati do the > > > same... you could also do the same... actually all the HINDUS who > > > are obsessing about nationalism on this listserv should do the > > > same... they'll realise that there are better and more enjoyable -- > > > and of course more useful things in life to do than spew virulent > > > intolerance. Suggesting means to experience pleasure is not abuse, > > > I'm sure you'll agree. > > > > > > And I am overwhelmed with the kind of response my comments have > > > attracted -- that's the way to keep the Hindu bullshitters engaged > > > I can clearly see. > > > > > > If you find this mail to be crude and obscene as well -- I > > > would've made my point. > > > > > > Cheers... > > > > > > Oishik > > > > > > On Jan 19, 2008 3:16 AM, Kshmendra Kaul > > > wrote: > > > It is ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to > > > the notice of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against > > > abuse directed at them. > > > > > > Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI) > > > was the one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and > > > obscene manner. > > > > > > Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would > > > have to say to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights" > > > (sic). > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > > Try it now. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > > Room 016 B > > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > > > 416.876.7926 > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > > Try it now. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Fly HYD-BLR for Rs.499 Log on to MakeMyTrip! Check it out! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. It's about getting married. Click here! Try it! Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _________________________________________________________________ Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186 From tulunadu at hotmail.com Mon Jan 21 13:41:16 2008 From: tulunadu at hotmail.com (Krishna Chaithanya) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 13:41:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome In-Reply-To: <322280.29665.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <322280.29665.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I am not bothered if other religions have said this or not. The religion that guides me has said this and that is enough for me. The life we live now, the world, this debate looks contextless to me. May be it is the design of the Supreme. I was told that this country is sold by greedy politicians(irrespective of party) and greedy bureaucrats. And it is quite natural for invaders (thousands of years ago or now MNCs) to take advantage of this. I neither know nor interested in the meaning of secularism. I just live my life as my Dharma guides me. I have not given up my life or Dharma. VASUDAIVAKUTUMBAKAM- Interpretation is human, the meaning is devine. And the devine can only be experienced. Any interpretation you make of the devine will only be NOISE (This applys to all spiritual streams) KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:17:45 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com CC: reader-list at sarai.net Which other religion has said this... let me know... And do not quote few words to explain things... talk in context... Attitude of yours have sold this country.. and Every other invaders have taken advantage of this.. But you will not improve... Your task is to give up in the name of Secularism.... VASUDAIVAKUTUMBAKAM does mean that everyone belong to One Family (Does Quran or Bible say so?)... But it also means that all humans of Vasudeva Kutumba are one family.... You see, interpretation is all that is confusing... Please see the context in which this is said to understand the correct interpretation... and then we will talk on this... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 12:30:29 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome "But time will take care of that..." you should always remeber this Chanchal "Hinduism is all Humanity (Supreme court has also said this)" I don't think a certificate any institution is needed. Humanity encompasses all, there are no boundaries. There is no need to spew venom on anyone. Nationalism contradicts Humanity. VASUDAIVAKUTUMBAKAM - This is what Gita told me. And it doen't matter to my faith if other holy books don't say this. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:40:56 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com CC: reader-list at sarai.net Supreme has not chosen me alone... I am just a small drop which adds up to form the Ocean... and the Ocean is again in the way of formation... There are rivers which are trying to intrude and disturb the serenity of Ocean... But time will take care of that... You will not understand.. Read again and again Bhagwad Geeta... Arujna fought a war (the greatest known to mankind) after getting preached from Lord Krishna... he did not give away like you.... Nationalism is in protection of our nation, be that then be Kashmir... What if some disease has hit a part of our body.. We need to fight to make it healthy again... We cannot cut it away... We cannot escape from it... Hinduism is all Humanity (Supreme court has also said this)... and anyone talking Hinduism is actually talking Humanity... So Hindus must talk Hinduism first... For it is Hindus because of whom the nation is still holding itself... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:42:49 AM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome Glad to know that the supreme being has chosen you to save the nation Every religious fundamentalist believes that he is the chosen one and his religion is the only path May the god bless you Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:20:59 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com You are not to decide the right path... You are not among ones who can save the nation... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:43:30 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome You are the best human I've ever come across. I can feel your energy,very vinrant, unfortunately it has not found the right path God bless you Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:37:00 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com You first sacrifice your house to a Muslim.. And then we will think about Kashmir... You are an Idiot... and an Anti-National... Absolutely no doubt.. People like you will create many Kashmirs.. and get every Hindu killed... It is better you convert... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:37:51 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome I'v no problem accepting Kashmir as a country, why not the Govt. accept it? why should we sacrifice our soldiers there? How much resources we have wasted on Kashmir all these years? how many people we'v got killed? Is there any meaning to it. Isn't it stupid- instead of holding what is with us tight, we focused a lot on Kashmir and allowed the fire to spread to other regions. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:47:47 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com Yes.. I mean it... Because Kashmir is virtually a country now.. It is army of India that is still holding it.. And Muslims don't want that.. This is the reason, you find so much of Muslims shouting on Army.. This is the truth... Accept or Reject is your choice... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:10:18 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome I can start quoting dates with killing counts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... Correct yourself please... You'v said countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and KASHMIR....! > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:21:53 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com; kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > Don't mislead... > The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to India (all HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India... (I will get the Video uploaded on UTube on this, as this was shown by an external news channel)... and you say, women are raped in India.. > > You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of having more than one wife.. there is no freedom to women to report rapes... who will show what happens in your community... The Quran says them all... and I have all senteces of Quran right with me.... Believe me, all awaken Hindus are now reading Quran... they all know what is there in that book... > So, Muslims cannot fool the world any more that Quran teaches Peace... and Islam is a peaceful religion... > > Modi is a simple indication, what Hindus are now thinking... It is Muslims who have to think now... they have created this world a land of havoc... Everywhere they are simply engaged in Killing.... > They even kill each other, as in Iraq and now in Pakistan... And they are seriously killing Hindus like anything.... If this is again refuted... I can start quoting dates with killing counts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... > > I don't know, what is in their head.... How do they get so easily terrorised... What do they get in believing that killign an Idolator is a work of God... It is stupid... and yet they all are keeping this faith in their head.... > they all are not engaged in killing, but they all are engaged in supporting this act... > Quran says, forgive the Idolators only if they accept Islam... and Quran says this right from second Surah to the last one... > > Why? Our religion don't teach about this variance at all... Geeta teaches how to unite, how to live with respective with each other, how to love, how to perform duty... Why can't you teach peace... > > Why can't you understand that Nature has created every creature (of all species) unique and different.. Nature has produced variance so that creatures can live with respect to each other... A specie is not naturally allowed to kill the same specie.. except for humans.. where humans are killing humans... > > Let India live with its heritage of Hindutva... Thousands of years of killing and enforcement have failed to eliminate Hindus... Another thousand will also fail... Because nature will keep the variance alive... But the attempt of Islam and christianity would only produce killing of innocent people... > > Hindus would kill muslims only during riots or war... But Muslim would kill always for religious reasons... > Please stop talking all these things.. > Please talk peace... > Please talk how to proliferate the nation.. > Please suggest how to remove the Quranic Islam and produce Indian Islam... > Please stop attacking Hindus, Modi and Army... > Please, please, please.... > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Zainab Bawa > To: Kshmendra Kaul ; sarai list > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 3:42:08 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > Dear Kshmendra and all your supporters and back slappers, > > You can easily pinpoint Oishik for his outburst of anger and frustration and > then state that because he (mis)directed his anger at Vedavati and company, > he has no right to talk about the abuse of Manipuri women at the hands of > the Indian state appointed soldiers there. How about for a moment > questioning Lady Chanchal and her remarks and for once again coming back to > the issue that Oishik has tried to raise - the rape of women at the hands of > state appointed army and the manifestations of the state's violence at > women? > > Chanchal diverted the topic by once again going back to her pet peeve of > Islam and Muslim and her hang ups of some frozen history that she loves to > imagine. I pointed out to her that it has nothing to do with Hindu-Muslim > populations and Hindu-Muslim army soldiers but a larger question and concern > about women being direct targets of state violence (with that state violence > and injustice also being responsible for the rise of all kinds of other > movements to combat it). I then pointed to Chanchal how I have also been > eve-teased in Srinagar by soldiers. No, they did not come to ask me whether > I was Hindu or Muslim but made lewd remarks simply because I was woman and > bear breasts and bosom on my person. I also want to clarify that it not > about the soldiers themselves, but about the institutions and the systems > that get perpetrated within the structure of the conflict and occupation of > space. Chanchal immediately retorted saying that because I happen to be > "Muslim", I am likely to complain about being eve teased. *What kind of a > patriarchal and discriminatory remark is this?* This does not come to your > attention but Oishik's suggestion of anal stimulation immediately strikes > you and you make claims about the mothers and sisters of the world. You > don't recognize that we have turned this into a battle of whose position is > right and backslapping. In our egostical positions and pride and victimized > states, as Gowhar and others have rightly pointed out, we fail to see who > suffers - children who are beaten by the army, women who are serially raped > and butchered, men whose psyches have been muted by the violences, families > that continue to suffer the losses of their loved ones, etc. and this is not > restricted to Kashmir, but to violence all over the world. But perhaps, you > would brush this aside by exclaiming that these are standard complaints of > Muslims. And then you cleverly subvert every issue, incidence and event to > Kashmir and to Muslims. Clever you! > > On this note, having personally known Oishik, I vouch for him as a very > sincere, honest and well-meaning person. One remark of anger and frustration > does not define a person's overall political commitments and thoughts. And > this would apply to my not boxing either of you as good or bad people on the > basis of your positions. > > Best, > > Zainab > > *P.S. Any immediate retort/s to this email will be and ought to be > categorically ignored. * > > > On Jan 20, 2008 3:05 PM, wrote: > > > Well said, with lal salaaam. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:48 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > To: sarai list > > > > > Oishik > > > > > > 1. Thank you for the suggestion directed to me. It does not > > > interest me. I too have some suggestions for you. > > > > > > 2. You seem to be obsessed with what you have experienced and > > > suggested. You see a lot of merit in it. > > > > > > 3. Charitable soul that you are, you must have promoted it to > > > your circle of family and friends. > > > > > > 4. OISHIT, since there might be others of your kind who might > > > not find your suggestions/language obscene and crude, you must > > > convince them about it. You must provide references for them on > > > the efficacy of your suggestion. > > > > > > 5. So OISHIT, I presume we will get testimonials from your > > > mother, sisters (if any), daughters (if any) and others to whom > > > you must have recommended the stimulation. They certainly would > > > have respected your suggestion. Maybe you even helped them in the > > > processes in the course of convincing them that your suggestion on > > > means to experience pleasure is not abuse. You must mention the > > > role played by you. > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > > > Kshmendra: > > > > > > That was not meant to be an abuse at all... it was meant to > > > suggest a means to experience anal stimulation that can be > > > orgasmic... I have tried it... so suggested that Vedavati do the > > > same... you could also do the same... actually all the HINDUS who > > > are obsessing about nationalism on this listserv should do the > > > same... they'll realise that there are better and more enjoyable -- > > > and of course more useful things in life to do than spew virulent > > > intolerance. Suggesting means to experience pleasure is not abuse, > > > I'm sure you'll agree. > > > > > > And I am overwhelmed with the kind of response my comments have > > > attracted -- that's the way to keep the Hindu bullshitters engaged > > > I can clearly see. > > > > > > If you find this mail to be crude and obscene as well -- I > > > would've made my point. > > > > > > Cheers... > > > > > > Oishik > > > > > > On Jan 19, 2008 3:16 AM, Kshmendra Kaul > > > wrote: > > > It is ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to > > > the notice of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against > > > abuse directed at them. > > > > > > Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI) > > > was the one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and > > > obscene manner. > > > > > > Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would > > > have to say to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights" > > > (sic). > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > > Try it now. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > > Room 016 B > > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > > > 416.876.7926 > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > > Try it now. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Fly HYD-BLR for Rs.499 Log on to MakeMyTrip! Check it out! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. It's about getting married. Click here! Try it! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. _________________________________________________________________ Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 14:14:58 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:14:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] are these nationalists In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30801210012n86816b9vc42f8f719d4d799c@mail.gmail.com> References: <187349.34224.qm@web8409.mail.in.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70801180954k43eb2f8cq336c0b3f09411894@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30801210012n86816b9vc42f8f719d4d799c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801210044y26d0c88ek44bfa66878aff431@mail.gmail.com> And for a change why not transfer all Kashmiri terrorist cases to Gujarat ? On 1/21/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > > At least in Modis gujarat ....it has been served..... > > Not in Modi's Gujarat, because the case had been transferred to a > special CBI court in Maharashtra. > > And why does there have to be a comparison every time - it cheapens > both tragedies. There should be justice every time, in each case. > > > > > > On 1/18/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > At least 6 years after the Gujarat riot , which started after some > > fundamentalists burnt alive scores of Hindu Pilgrims returning from > Ayodhya > > , few people were convicted. > > > > Compare it with the case of Kashmiri Pandits , even after 18 years , not > > even a single person has been convicted in Kashmir for killing of more > than > > 3000 Kashmiri pandits . Not to talk of rape and arson against this > > community. > > > > For that reason that the state is ruled by camouflage Islamic > fundamentalist > > and Islamic groups are in majority. > > > > When will the justice be served to Kashmiri Pandits ? At least in Modis > > gujarat ....it has been served..... > From javedmasoo at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 14:20:38 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:20:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: what non-Muslims say about Quran, Islam In-Reply-To: References: <480145.16815.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Chanchal I will say this again - I have nothing against the Bhagwat Gita - I respect it at its face value. I agree with whatever you say about the Gita -so let's not get into that. Before I go into Quran, here are a few clarifications: The word Hindu was not imposed by Muslims - it actually has a longer history. When Alexander's armies reached what is called Sindhu river, they found it to be so large that they mistook it for the ocean. And in Greek the word for ocean is Indus - that's how the river and the region got the name Indus. The word later evolved into many variances such as Indu, Sindu, Hindu or Hinduvi. Even during the time of Albeiruni, they did not refer to the word Hindu as a religion, but the people living across Indus or Sindhu river. Most Arab travellers/writers have referred to the entire region as Al-Hind, and not with contempt (as you claim). Even Prophet Muhammad used to say "I get wafts of fragrance from the direction of Al-Hind". Secondly, I agree that most of the current generation Indian Muslims are the local converts, but not all converted because of invasion or force. Almost all of them were low-caste Hindus who were converted to Islam due to centuries-old persecution in the hands of the upper-caste/Brahmins. This process still continues - even Christians missinaries have been more succesful in the tribal areas. Let me know come to the Quran. Yes there are some references in it which talk about fighting with the infidels. But as I said in my earlier mail, we have to read every word of Quran in the context of the situation in which it was revealed/ composed in Arabia. Prophet Muhammad was going through persecution by his fellow tribesmen for starting a new way of life (all Prophets/sages go through such persecution), hence Quran refers to resistance against the so-called infidels. It need not apply to every situation. Although unfortunately many people try to apply these to the present day situation and lead to unneccesary troubles for every one. That is highly condemnable. Let us look at some of these passages from the Quran - let me quote them here before you start quoting them. (My apologies to the Sarai readers for using this platform for purposes which it is not meant for) "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace" (The Quran 8:61) The "root" of the word "Islam" in Arabic is SALAMA which is the origin of the words Peace & / or Submission, a submission to God and peace to all humanity. It is, thus, no wonder why the salutation in Islam is: "Al-Salamu Alaikum or Peace on You." In this regard, prophet Mohammad ordered his fellow Muslims to salute others Muslims or non-Muslims with peace when he said: "Peace Before Speech" It is a rule in Islam that during war time, an enemy warrior who pronounces the word peace is totally immune. *No Coercion In Islam Unlike many other religions where people were offered either conversion and peace or death, Islam came with the just word of our creator. In Quran 2:256; God said "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error..." There are many other verses in the Quran that deals with the nature of spreading God's message. One of my favorites which I keep quoting is Verse 10:99 "If it had been thy Lord's Will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! Wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!" These verses and many others show how much emphasis Islam places on the mind of people, Muslims or non-Muslims. *Justice & Fairness to Non-Muslims In This regard, Muslims are governed by the rules that the relationship with non-Muslims should be based on justice, mutual respect, cooperation, and communication. The Quran is very explicit about the justice part of the relationship when God stated in Verse 60:08 "Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just." *The Ultimate Justice Another prominent example that I keep referring to concerning the just treatment of Islam to non-Muslims; is the fact that while a husband is allowed to ask his Muslim wife not to go to the Mosque; he has no right to ask his wife to go to Church or Synagogue if it happens that the wife is a Christian or a Jew. *Contemporary Counterpart of Jihad The United Nation's Charter does explicitly discuss the right of the occupied people to resist their occupiers. The legitimacy of fighting aggression by means of Jihad or armed struggle is extended not only from the Islamic teachings but also from the international law and UN Charter. Quran offers a very sophisticated view of peace. In many verses it promises the believer peace as a final reward for a righteous life ( 5:16 ). It also describes the house of Islam as the abode of peace (10:25). At the behest of the Quran, Muslims greet each other every time they meet, by wishing peace for each other (6:54 ). However the Quran does not shy from advocating military action in the face of persecution and religious intolerance. The strongest statement is in the chapter al-Baqarah (191): The Quran says: "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers" (2:193). This verse is very interesting for it limits retaliation against all except those who are directly responsible for wrong-doing and also suggests that persecution could mean religious persecution. Meaning that when the practice of Islam is prohibited it is a condition that can be deemed as persecution and therefore fighting this persecution is desired. This could have implications for conflicts among Muslim states and between Muslim states and Islamic groups. Where citizens are allowed to practice their faith freely violence is not an option. The Quran makes a profound pronouncement in al-Anfal: Tell those who disbelieve that if they cease (from persecution of believers) that which is past will be forgiven them (8:38); this injunction further reduces the scope for violent response against persecution by granting amnesty to those who stop persecution. One of the reasons why tyrannical regimes persist in the Muslim World is due to the fear of retaliation. Regimes are resisting change and democratization for fear of being persecuted for past crimes by new regimes. A promise of general amnesty for past deeds by potential challengers may create an atmosphere where existing regimes may permit gradual change. I would like to have your opinion on my views. Javed On 1/21/08, chanchal malviya wrote: > > I agree to your point 4... > In fact, I nearly agree to all your points... > > I will take any reference of Quran you want to give... I am using the only > published by Kitab Bhawan... > > If you are really eager... I will give you reference of Bhagwad Geeta... > You can take your own time to go through it and start our discussion... > > I am not in a mood to compare.. as I have already read both and there is no > comparision possible... > > While Quran talks only about Believers and Non-Believers of Islam... Bhagwad > Geeta is all about Humanity (no religion)... If a Muslim will read Bhagwad > Geeta even with a mind to find Hindutva in it, he will fail... > So comparision is not possible... > If you come to more ground reality, Hindu is a word forced on us by Muslims > only, to categorize us as Idol Worshippers and people of Sindhu region... > And moreover, most of the Muslims of this region were basically Hindus some > generations in past... Their forefathers are forced Islam acceptors... > > And no one can deny this truth, because it is a well known history that > around 1000 years ago, it is Muslims who invaded this region and not that we > were Muslims... > So, instead of having Soft Corner for Hindu brothers (the heirs of same > forefathers), Muslims are doing the same thing that the invaders did... > > They do not have any regard for our Temples.... They do not have regard of > Dieties...The fight is forced... You will get many Hindus who are regard for > Quran (those who have not read it).. as the basic culture is to respect > anything that is peace and God... But this is not the same that is returned > by Islamic and Christian people... And hence, we are finding dirty game of > Conversion in full force... > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Javed > To: chanchal malviya > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 12:19:07 AM > Subject: Re: what non-Muslims say about Quran, Islam > > Dear Chanchal ji > I would love to take up this challenge - I don't mind having a debate > with you. But there are a few very basic things first. > > (1) I am not attacking Bhagwat Gita, I have no problem with it, I > haven't read it, I don't own a copy right now, so I can't argue for or > against it any way, nor do I want to condemn it in any way. As a > matter of fact, I respect it, just as I respect all other books of > wisdom. Quite simply, I have nothing to say against Bhagwat Gita or > any other Holy book. So you have already won on that account. > > (2) How can I trust you in a discussion when you keep rejecting my > facts by saying "Gandhi never read Quran", and "forget what people > say" - how can we forget/ignore things which have been said before > about Quran. Are you saying that all those philosophers (which I > quoted) have not read what you have read? Or are you claiming to know > more about Islam than what all those people have known? Although many > of them are Christians but that doesn't mean that they would be more > sympathatic to Islam. The hostilities between Muslims and Christians > have been equally terrible. > > (3) I would like to know exactly which translation of the Quran are > you quoting from. Just like you do not approve my references, I may > have a problems with your sources. So, let us start with that. Please > let me know which translation of the Quran are you reading. > > (4) Please remember, the most important point which I will keep > referring to is: The Quran, or any other historical/holy book for that > matter, was written/compiled at a certain stage in history, at a > certain geographical location, for a certain cultural context. We have > to read/interprete each word of that book in the context of those > times and that location. If we start applying anything from that text > to the current situation and intepret today's reality from the point > of view of that old text, we are going to run into trouble - our > interpretations and evaluations will always be problematic. And I can > already foresee our running into that quagmire. Some Muslims may say > that Quran applies to all times and all humans equally, but a > sociologist/historian may see Quran to be a historical document (my > apologies if I'm hurting anyone's sentiments). And I would like to > treat it (at least in this discussion) at a historical document. > > (5) I am not in a mood to fight - the way you are writing so > aggressively. I would love to participate in a discussion if we tone > down a bit. > > If you think that my above points make sense, then let us go ahead. I > am ready for the discussion. I am really looking forward to a > scholarly, mature, non-partisan, and parliamentary discussion with > you, in good spirits. > > Javed From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Mon Jan 21 14:23:47 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 13:53:47 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? In-Reply-To: <144261.98551.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <144261.98551.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: OM SHANTHI SHANTHI SHANTHI SAYS kRISHNA CHAITHNYA, WHICH SHANTHI OH, KRISHNA, BEFORE YOU EMBRACED THE CULT, DURING OR AFTER THE CULT LIVING, ? PLEASE PONDER OVER WHAT YOU HAVE READ OF THE gEETHA, NOT THE GIRLFRIEND, FOR THE SADHU IN CULT, THE BOOK THAT YOU PARADE. ! ----- Original Message ----- From: chanchal malviya Date: Monday, January 21, 2008 12:23 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? To: Krishna Chaithanya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > I dont know how you understand 'Maya'... Your words let me feel > that you think Maya is Illusion... You are very preliminary in its > understanding man.... To brief in one line it goes as... > Maya is Trigun (Sattva, Rajas and Tamas)... and it is these three > attributes of nature that is eneveloping the creatures... and the > holder of these attributes is termed as Maya.. English word > Illusion cannot describe it... > > So, the duty is to attain the Sattva and even beyond... as Sattva > is also not free from attainment of results.. recoprocal (action > and reaction) are attribute of all three attribute of Maya and > that is the rule of Maya... > > So please understand again the book... And be dutiful... you > cannot say what is future.. but you must say what is right and > wrong and what is your duty... You must do it.. > And your first duty is to protect the nation from the hands of > Abusers... Nation is your mother, and you may allow your > mothers's abuse.. I cannot... > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Krishna Chaithanya > To: chanchal malviya > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:54:30 AM > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > Dear Chanchal, > > Lord krishna has preached so many things. He also wanted the world > to understand what MAYA is all about. If a Hindu scholar who has > digested thousands of holy books and still doesn't understand the > meaning of MAYA. What can poor Krishna do...!? > > KC > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:24:35 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; pawan.durani at gmail.com; > asitredsalute at gmail.comCC: reader-list at sarai.net > > > You are absolutely correct now Mr. Krishna.. > Kashmir was never a Hindu region... It was only before Mughal > invasion.. > And I don't understand... Do you know what Lord Krishna has > preached in Geeta... What he himself did... > You don't understand the depth of your own name.. > Give me chance and I will let you know > > (If you are not a dummy Hindu here)... > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Krishna Chaithanya > To: Pawan Durani ; Asit asitreds > Cc: reader-list > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 11:55:35 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > "It is a historical fact that Kashmir has been intolerant towards > hindus since last almost 1000 years and there have been more than > 8 major exodus ofKashmiri pandits ". > > Does that mean that Kashmir was never a Hindu Country...!? What > are you saying Pawan? > > KC > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:43:38 +0530 > > From: pawan.durani at gmail.com > > To: asitredsalute at gmail.com > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > > Dear Mr Asit , > > > > I just wanted to clarify that the word Kashmiriat was used very > cleaverly by > > Kashmiri Muslim leaders to hide the atrocities on Kashmiri Hindus. > > > > It is a historical fact that Kashmir has been intolerant towards > hindus> since last almost 1000 years and there have been more than > 8 major exodus of > > Kashmiri pandits . > > > > Regards > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > On 1/20/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > > > > > lets not communalise the kashmir scene with talking about > pandits and > > > muslims what is imporatnt is kasmiriyat ant the national > liberation of > > > kashmir it is a occcupied territory of both pakistan and india > we make a > > > big > > > scene about pandits what about thousands of kasmiri youth > killed by the > > > indian army the tortures the rapes and the natinal > indignination of kasmir > > > its not a question of hindus or muslims but the colonisation > of kasmir by > > > india and pakistan > > > > > > asit > > > > > > > > > On 1/20/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > > > > > > > Same is the case when Theesta and the likes with "secular" > media claim > > > > "thousands of " muslims bucthered in Gujarath, but who > bothers about > > > truth > > > > when one can get saudi riyals to defend the traitors of the > nation with > > > > highly paid "criminal" lawyers. ? > > > > In riot both hindus and muslims loose their beloved, many > lives are > > > lost, > > > > but this has origin in creating the Pakistan and then not > encouraging> > the > > > > indian muslims to go the land and nation they created for > faith, after > > > > promising to live in India like brothers to their society. ? > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Wali Arifi > > > > Date: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:58 pm > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > > To: reader-list > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many > > > > > lessons. One > > > > > being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate > figures when > > > > > it comes to > > > > > human loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the > loss. In > > > > > fact accuracy > > > > > adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. > In essence > > > > > multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to take > refuge in > > > > > propagandaand cloth the truth with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mr Durrani in his post has said: "….for killing of more > than 3000 > > > > > Kashmiripandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this > > > > > community." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What > is Mr Durrani > > > > > trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of > killings?> > > > Is he > > > > > helping the community by exaggerating the figure? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri > > > > > pandits were > > > > > killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has to be understood that multiplying figures is > dangerously> > > > counterproductive for those who call themselves > as the champions and > > > > > custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget > about the > > > > > use of > > > > > words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing > and so on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kashmir's history will be written by those who have > dreamed of a 'just > > > > > Kashmir'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or > trying> > > > to create > > > > > it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into > what it has > > > > > actuallybeen in all practice... **Majoritarianism. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Wali > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > > list > > > > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with> > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > > List archive: > > _________________________________________________________________ > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > Search. > > > Fly HYD-BLR for Rs.499 Log on to MakeMyTrip! Check it out! > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping_________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Mon Jan 21 14:26:06 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 13:56:06 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? In-Reply-To: References: <630635.84215.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: hI, WHICH MAYA ARE YOU SPEAKING ABOUT, NOT i HOPE THE ONE THAT CULT TALKS OF ABOUT IN THE KITCHEN ON YESTER NIGHTS ADVENTURE. ? Krishna cults are the mayas that have taken over some individuals to preach something and then earn dollars ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Krishna Chaithanya Date: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:57 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Dear Chanchal, > > Lord krishna has preached so many things. He also wanted the world > to understand what MAYA is all about. If a Hindu scholar who has > digested thousands of holy books and still doesn't understand the > meaning of MAYA. What can poor Krishna do...!? > > KC > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:24:35 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; pawan.durani at gmail.com; > asitredsalute at gmail.comCC: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > You are absolutely correct now Mr. Krishna.. > Kashmir was never a Hindu region... It was only before Mughal > invasion.. > And I don't understand... Do you know what Lord Krishna has > preached in Geeta... What he himself did... > You don't understand the depth of your own name.. > Give me chance and I will let you know > > (If you are not a dummy Hindu here)... > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Krishna Chaithanya > To: Pawan Durani ; Asit asitreds > Cc: reader-list > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 11:55:35 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > "It is a historical fact that Kashmir has been intolerant towards > hindus since last almost 1000 years and there have been more than > 8 major exodus ofKashmiri pandits ". > > Does that mean that Kashmir was never a Hindu Country...!? What > are you saying Pawan? > > KC > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:43:38 +0530 > > From: pawan.durani at gmail.com > > To: asitredsalute at gmail.com > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > > Dear Mr Asit , > > > > I just wanted to clarify that the word Kashmiriat was used very > cleaverly by > > Kashmiri Muslim leaders to hide the atrocities on Kashmiri Hindus. > > > > It is a historical fact that Kashmir has been intolerant towards > hindus> since last almost 1000 years and there have been more than > 8 major exodus of > > Kashmiri pandits . > > > > Regards > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > On 1/20/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > > > > > lets not communalise the kashmir scene with talking > about pandits and > > > muslims what is imporatnt is kasmiriyat ant the national > liberation of > > > kashmir it is a occcupied territory of both pakistan and india > we make a > > > big > > > scene about pandits what about thousands of kasmiri youth > killed by the > > > indian army the tortures the rapes and the natinal > indignination of kasmir > > > its not a question of hindus or muslims but the colonisation > of kasmir by > > > india and pakistan > > > > > > asit > > > > > > > > > On 1/20/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > > > > > > > Same is the case when Theesta and the likes with "secular" > media claim > > > > "thousands of " muslims bucthered in > Gujarath, but who bothers about > > > truth > > > > when one can get saudi riyals to defend the traitors of the > nation with > > > > highly paid "criminal" lawyers. ? > > > > In riot both hindus and muslims loose their beloved, many > lives are > > > lost, > > > > but this has origin in creating the Pakistan and then not > encouraging> > the > > > > indian muslims to go the land and nation they created for > faith, after > > > > promising to live in India like brothers to their society. ? > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Wali Arifi > > > > Date: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:58 pm > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > > To: reader-list > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many > > > > > lessons. One > > > > > being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate > figures when > > > > > it comes to > > > > > human loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the > loss. In > > > > > fact accuracy > > > > > adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. > In essence > > > > > multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to take > refuge in > > > > > propagandaand cloth the truth with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mr Durrani in his post has said: "….for killing of more > than 3000 > > > > > Kashmiripandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this > > > > > community." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What > is Mr Durrani > > > > > trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of > killings?> > > > Is he > > > > > helping the community by exaggerating the figure? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri > > > > > pandits were > > > > > killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has to be understood that > multiplying figures is dangerously > > > > > counterproductive for those who call themselves as the > champions and > > > > > custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget > about the > > > > > use of > > > > > words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing > and so on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kashmir's history will be written by those who have > dreamed of a 'just > > > > > Kashmir'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or > trying> > > > to create > > > > > it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into > what it has > > > > > actuallybeen in all practice... **Majoritarianism. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > Wali > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > > list > > > > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with> > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > > List archive: > > _________________________________________________________________ > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > _________________________________________________________________ > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=220 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Mon Jan 21 14:31:29 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:01:29 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. In-Reply-To: <92747.28449.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <92747.28449.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi, which shanti and Maya are you talking about, - the one you had as girlfriend during your education or the one you have had after embracing the cult ? Even in hindu way of life, dharma is a means of earning dollars and having princely life with krishna conscious, hope you are not of that type. ? Such have only superficial grasp of Geetha as told by the Lord and get mired in maya of dollars. ! ----- Original Message ----- From: chanchal malviya Date: Monday, January 21, 2008 10:54 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: Krishna Chaithanya , reader-list at sarai.net > You are a selfish person... Realizing Shanti only for you... > The mantra is far deep than you can even think... > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Krishna Chaithanya > To: reader-list at sarai.net; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:37:06 PM > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > What I know can not be expressed in words. I feel peace within me > when I Chant OM SHANTHI SHANTHI SHANTHI. > > It appears like you you understand what is OM and why there is > Three Shanthi. But how come there is no sign of peace! > > I don't care if any other religion has such slogans in their > religious books. > It doesn't make any difference to my belief and faith in the Supreme. > > KC > > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:44:33 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com > > > Do you understand also... what is OM and why is there Three > Shanti... > Do you know any other religion which has such slogans in their > religious books... > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Krishna Chaithanya > To: chanchal malviya > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:28:20 PM > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > Om Shanthi Shanti Shanti hi > > KC > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:53:35 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net > > > How many bombs you have thrown.. > Ask this to them... Not us... > We are reacting.. They are acting... > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Krishna Chaithanya > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:19:37 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be > on the society....!? > > We bomb them > and they bomb us > and we bomb them > and they bomb us > together we bomb us > then who is left to bomb...? > > KC > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:33:09 +0500 > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > Hi, true, it for too long hindus have been tolerent leading to a > sarcastic comment that they are cowards, may be Nehru was coward > when India was divided for his greed,may be Krishna menon loved > chinese vaginas more than indian ones, but now it is time that > hindu understood the value of SAMA, Dana, BHEDHA are over, dandam > dashagunam bhaveth. Violence can be stopped only with violent > means.Then peace will be on the society. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: chanchal malviya > > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:24 am > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > To: Javed , reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > It is time for Hindus to rise now... > > > And no dicussion or virtual communities can stop it... > > > > > > Swami Vivekanand said - India have enough of religion.. > > > And it is time now to say this to Christian and Muslims who > force > > > conversions the same thing.. > > > If Sanskrit is the mother of all languages, Hinduism is the > mother > > > of all Religions... (But two religions have in particular > always > > > learnt to abuse their mother(Hinduism) - Islam and > Christianity)...> > It is time now to stop the nation from > producing more Kashmirs... > > > It is time now to stop the non-Independent Religious India... > > > > > > So go on my dear friends as much as you like to abuse Hindus.. > > > It hardly matters now.. > > > > > > Ramayan is proving to be a reality, Mahabharat is a reality.. > > > History will also change.. > > > It is Hindus that have taught peace to the world.. but to do > that > > > again, the two attackers have to be checked now.. > > > People are doing that.. And will do that.. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Javed > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 6:00:16 PM > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > > > India's Islam > > > by Arun Nair > > > > > > Firstly, I must apologise if this article smacks of an impolite > > > urgency and prescriptive-ness. I mean not to be arrogant, but as > > > someone addressing you on a matter of deep concern to us all, > I felt > > > that there was little room for ceremonial apologies before every > > > sentence. Also, as an Indian middle-class Hindu who grew up in the > > > Babri-masjid 90s, it is easy for me to say some of the things > I say > > > here. > > > > > > Secondly, I address you, the reader, as an Indian citizen, not > as a > > > saintly Kabir or Gandhi preaching love for humanity. Our > collective> > interests are being threatened by communal forces > from within and > > > without. WE MUST ACT. We must not merely lament about our > respective> > versions of helplessnesses and others' faults. We > are free today > > > because India's greatest generation shook off the ghosts that > > > bedevilled them, and took action to protect our interests. I > implore> > you to continue that legacy. > > > > > > Thirdly, while I will go into what in my opinion are highly > plausible> > theories of Indian nationhood and nationalism, my > primary aim here is > > > not to write any treatise on politics or sociology, but to > protect our > > > rights to belong equally to India – our common ancestral land > – as > > > Indians, and as free, dignified humans. > > > > > > Fourthly, my ideas will be presented largely based on first > > > principles, also known as common-sense. > > > > > > My thesis is this: India must boldly assert its claim on Islamic > > > civilisation in the subcontinent. That is the key to end our > communal> > woes. > > > > > > This does not mean that India must become Islamic, or that Indian > > > Muslims must be somehow Hinduised. The idea, instead, is to > campaign> > relentlessly for India's Islamic civilisational > authenticity.> > > > > In the Indian psyche, Pakistan stands for Islam. Sadly for us and > > > admittedly in a weaker form, Islam is also synonymous with > Pakistan> > and everything Pakistani. This wouldn't have been so > bad if Pakistan > > > wasn't, well, un-Indian. We must use every tool at our > disposal as a > > > people to destroy the entrenched idea of Pakistani ownership of > > > subcontinental Islam from within India. More importantly, this > idea> > must be attacked from without it, because that is where it > originates.> > > > > Our chief weapon to eliminate Islam-Pakistan hyphenation from the > > > subcontinent will be an authentic claim: the centre of Islamic > > > civilisation in South Asia has always been undivided India, > and after > > > partition, India is its natural primary heir. The fact that a few > > > million Muslims left India during partition to settle in our > erstwhile> > outlying provinces doesn't change this. Neither does > the fact that the > > > Indian people chose a progressive, secular, democratic polity for > > > their republic. > > > > > > In our minds and in the world's view, subcontinental Islam is > under> > Pakistani occupation. The historical Indo-centric nature of > > > subcontinental Islam should be used to throw off this > psychological> > yoke. I urge Indians to rally together once again > as our greatest > > > generation did to protect our collective interests as the > people of > > > India. I urge friends of India all over the world to join us. > Both in > > > terms of geography and spirit, Islam in the subcontinent that > > > coexisted and flourished alongside Indic cultures, has always been > > > more Indian than Pakistani. If any single country represents > > > subcontinental Islam as it historically was, it is India. Not > > > Pakistan. > > > > > > India's Mughals. India's Qutub Minar, Gol Gumaz, and Taj Mahal. > > > India's Kabir. India's Tipu Sultan, Shah Jahan, Akbar, and, > why not, > > > Aurangazeb. India's Urdu. India's Ghalib and Khusro. India's > Delhi,> > Lucknow, Mysore, Hyderabad, Malabar, and Agra. > > > > > > Good history has to be deliberately written > > > > > > The people of India inherited thousands of years of history and > > > associated baggage that we didn't really ask for. > > > > > > Keep in mind though that history is not a dead object - it is > > > unfurling even as you read this. We may not be able to change what > > > happened in India 200 years ago. But 200 years from now when > people> > look back, they will see the Indian history that our > generation wrote. > > > It becomes then our duty, both as Indians and as sensible > humans, to > > > write it well. > > > > > > It is a great privilege to deliberately be able to write a > part of > > > something grand like the history of India. The first > generation of > > > Indians who did a coordinated job of writing our history was > the one > > > that won us our independence – our "freedom-generation". They > could> > have attempted to write their Indian chapter any way they > wanted to. > > > We could have had a dark, China-style communism, for instance. > But,> > given the Indian context, the freedom-generation chose the > most> > egalitarian, elegant, and humanist theme they could come > up with: a > > > secular, liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, that > takes its > > > strength from its inherent pluralism and its inheritance of > one of > > > mankind's greatest civilisations. > > > > > > The freedom-generation's legacy for us is the deliberate and > > > intelligent manner in which they forged an Indian national > identity.> > Thanks to their efforts, our nationality is a solid > concept. An Indian > > > from Karnataka has a robust nationalistic bond with Indians > say from > > > Punjab, Gujarat, Assam, or Delhi. Regardless of what languages we > > > speak, we all recognise Marathi, Tamil, Bengali and Telugu as > Indian> > languages – ancestral assets that all Indians > collectively own. > > > > > > It is a mistake, however, to think that the nation-building > task they > > > began is complete. Indian nationalism is not an idea frozen in > time,> > but an evolving one. We, the successors of India's > freedom-generation, > > > must exercise our prerogative to define its finer contours and > bring> > in new ideas to enrich it. Furthermore, we have an > obligation to both > > > our founding fathers and India's posterity to do this while > being true > > > to our quintessential Indian-ness, the just, egalitarian > nature of our > > > country as embodied in our constitution. > > > > > > Given that India's situation is not as pressing as it once > was, new > > > nationalist leaders – giants of the stature of Mahatma Gandhi, > Khan> > Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Subhash Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh, > Jawaharlal> > Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad or Vallabhai Patel – may be > difficult to > > > emerge. There is no need to though. We succeeded them, and we must > > > take this task upon ourselves. The freedom-generation watches > over us > > > in the form of our fraternity as Indians which they moulded at > a great > > > cost, and our constitution. > > > > > > Indian Nationalism - the idea of Indian brotherhood > > > > > > Amidst all this noisy consternation of Taslima Nasrin, Babri- > masjid,> >BJP-Congress etc., its easy to lose sight of the really > big pictures. > > > Consider, for instance, this question: what really is the > essence of > > > Indian nationalism? Why do we all feel so closely tied to > India > > > and to > > > each other? > > > > > > My answer is that, to put it simply, without the land we call > India,> > Indians either have no identity, or very anaemic > identities. All > > > Indians share this same curious relation to India. > > > When we are born to the same human mother, we are brothers. Our > > > constitution formed by our freedom-generation explicitly asserts > > > fraternity among the Indian people. Fraternity – brotherhood. > In what > > > sense are we brothers? > > > > > > Indians are brothers in the sense that the motherland that > birthed my > > > identity, also birthed yours. India is our ancestral land, and we > > > should be proud of everything associated with it. Everything > in India, > > > its religions, its good and its bad, its languages, its > glories and > > > struggles, its rivers, its emperors, its heroes and villains, > > > everything – is intricately weaved into our consciousnesses of > who we > > > are, where we come from, what our place in this world is, and how > > > other humans see us. Without that identity, we are crippled. > > > > > > Ours is no ordinary brotherhood. Indian people didn't come > into being > > > merely a few centuries ago. We are an ancient civilisation, > and what > > > we have is a civlisational brotherhood – a bond arising from > all of > > > our belonging to the civilisation that unfolded in the same land, > > > India. That brotherhood was formally declared through the > constitution> > in 1949, but it existed much before that. Before > our greatest > > > generation gave it a concrete wording in the 20th century, it > was well > > > moulded in the crucible that is our land, in the fire of the > previous> > several dozen, if not more, centuries. > > > > > > Every country of the world has stories that define their national > > > essences. What is the most essential feature of Indian > > > nationalism? It > > > is our Indian identity – our being tied to India, and our > > > civilisational brotherhood to each other in being bonded so. All > > > Indians, regardless of their religion or language, has this > bond with > > > India and with each other. > > > Indians must pause for a while and think why our anthem's > going over > > > our landmarks is so emotive. Or why Hindu-Muslim-Sikh-Christian > > > insignia are powerful. Or why merely thinking of our history, > or our > > > Kerala, Karnataka, Maharashtra, UP, Punjab and Bengal moves > all of us > > > equally. > > > > > > It's because they remind us of our organic ties to India, and the > > > brotherhood that we have with each other. This natural bond > given to > > > us by our glorious and at times bloody history is important. > If we > > > don't uphold this bond with the ferocity that our greatest > generation> > did, if we don't use it to protect our common > interests, our country > > > will remain weak. > > > > > > Our country's nature > > > > > > What is the nature of our country? What does it mean for > something > > > to be Indian? > > > For one, if all of us Indians could get together today and > declare in > > > one voice that India stands for certain values, then that > would be an > > > authoritative statement. India is what Indians say it is. If, > say, the > > > people of the then-Indian civilisation – Hindus, Muslims, > Christians,> > Buddhists, Sikhs, and Jains – had made such a > statement 400 years ago > > > and preserved its spirit through centuries, that would have > probably> > have been one of the greatest Indian texts. > > > > > > If you will recall, a very similar event actually did happen > in 1949, > > > when the founding fathers of the Indian republic adopted, > enacted, and > > > gave to ourselves - the sovereign people of India - our > constitution.> > The preamble reads, > > > > > > "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to > constitute India > > > into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to > secure> > to all its citizens: > > > JUSTICE, social, economic and political; > > > LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; > > > EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among > them all > > > FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the > unity and > > > integrity of the Nation. > > > IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, > 1949,> > do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS > CONSTITUTION."> > > > > In an absolute sense, the values of justice, liberty, and equality > > > have an intuitive appeal to all humans everywhere. However, the > > > formidable authority of our constitution comes from the > crushed but > > > proud people who paid a very high price for our right to live as > > > equals and as dignified humans in India. We must take their > word for > > > what India is – they must have known and dreamt quite a bit > about it. > > > > > > India's greatest generation definitely realised that divisivism, > > > self-doubt, and other demons from our past would haunt the > republic> > they formed. Which is why the constitution is > important. It helps us > > > protect our country from ourselves. > > > > > > The Constitution. Indian Nationalism. How we will defend India. > > > > > > Those who doubt the moral power of our freedom-generation, our > > > constitutional ethos, and Indian nationalism need only look at > > > Pakistan, which renounced all these in its attempts not to be > seen as > > > Indian. Pakistan's leaders, in trying to defend their divisve > national> > philosophy, forced the most horrible bankruptcy on its > people.> > > > > Rather than using Indian nationalism and the constitution to > tackle> > our communal issues, I am appalled at the general trend > to merely > > > lament that India is on its way to being declared an non- > secular state > > > - the hundreds of millions of Indians fully intent on > preventing this > > > notwithstanding. > > > > > > Pakistan-style Islamism, Ummah-isation of Hinduism, alienation > of > > > Indian Muslims > > > > > > There are three major trends in India today that are relevant > to > > > our topic. > > > > > > Firstly, India has very serious conflicts of interest with > Pakistan.> > We have gone to war with that country several times. > Its society has > > > issues with radicalisation and a general religious orthodoxy. Its > > > regimes have relentlessly attacked India's internal fault- > lines over > > > the past few decades in the name of Islam. Tens of thousands > of Indian > > > soldiers have died defending our country against them. It is > > > distinctly un-Indian and anti-Indian. > > > > > > Secondly, Hinduism is, for the lack of a better word, Ummah- > ising, and > > > this at times takes horrifyingly militant forms. I, given my > personal> > biases, am all for Hindu solidarity and abolishing > pseudo-secularism. > > > However, an argument for Hindu-solidarity should not be > allowed to > > > take the form of an un-Indian religionalism that goes against > the very > > > spirit of India. > > > > > > Thirdly, Indian Muslims feel alienated from their own country. In > > > India, Pakistan is synonymous with Islam. Unfortunately, Islam > is also > > > weakly synonymous with Pakistan. This has significantly undermined > > > Indian Muslims' political standing in India vis-a-vis their fellow > > > citizens. > > > > > > The havoc all this has wreaked on our society must not be ignored. > > > India was home to one of humanity's greatest Islamic cultures > for well > > > over 1000 years. It is not, by any means, a dead part of our > > > culture - > > > nearly 160 million Indians are Muslims, several national icons are > > > Muslims, mosques and Islamic architecture litter the country, and > > > Muslim holidays are shared by all. And yet, to a lot of > Indians, Islam > > > doesn't feel Indian, but Pakistani. Despite their respective > religious> > majorities, it is odd that Buddhism doesn't feel Sri > Lankan, or > > > Hinduism itself, Nepali. > > > > > > The partition of India and secular India's deprivation of its > Islamic> > authenticity > > > > > > Has anyone thought what has actually happened here? Why is it > that in > > > India, an ancient civilisational land which has a unique Islamic > > > culture just like Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, Islam is seen as somehow > > > foreign? That is not because of Islam's being inconsistent > with India > > > – 1000 years and more of history and our combined freedom struggle > > > should have proven this by now. > > > > > > During partition, founders of Pakistan expropriated the > subcontinent's> > Islamic identity for defining their nation, > Pakistan. Pakistan's > > > struggle to keep its ideology alive has robbed us of our Islamic > > > authenticity. India's secular nature not-withstanding, the > ardour with > > > which Pakistan argued itsideology and pushed its exclusivist > national> > philosophy within the larger Islamic community ensured > that it gained > > > some traction in the Indian society. Pakistan's military conflicts > > > with "Hindu" India only amplified this. > > > > > > It only takes a few of decades of intense activity for a new > Zeitgeist> > to take root in a society. Consider denazification of > Germany, China's > > > turn into capitalism, and India's own economic liberalisation. 30 > > > years – that is all it takes for a young generation to grow up > shaped> > by a pervasive ideology. > > > > > > Though quite smaller than India, Pakistan is by no means a tiny > > > nation. It is the world's 6th most populous country, one of > its major > > > economies, and a prominent player during the cold war. One > cannot find > > > fault with it - Pakistan had to defend its national > philosophy. It has > > > expended a tremendous amount of national effort over the last > 60 years > > > in achieving a strong association between subcontinental Islam and > > > itself. > > > > > > They have succeeded splendidly. Islam in the subcontinent > today is > > > seen as prominently Pakistani and India's secular fabric > warped by > > > that perception. Pakistan is an Islamic nation - this somehow > gives> > them a stronger claim on everything Islamic in the > subcontinent. The > > > world simply does not recognise India's Islamic authenticity, and > > > neither do many Indians within. India continues to be associated > > > primarily with Hinduism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, but not Islam. > > > > > > Does religious brotherhood entirely negate the organic bonds a > human> > has to his ancestral land and its history, and to his > fellow humans > > > who share the same bonds as him? I don't really know. What I > do know > > > is that this is not the principle on which the Indian republic was > > > founded, and its definitely not an Indian value. Religious > supremacism> > and breaking up of Indian people are un-Indian > philosophies. It goes > > > against the very spirit of our freedom struggle, nationalism, > and our > > > constitution. > > > > > > Indians must remember that new Pakistani generations do not > even have > > > the same right to speak for India's Muslims that their earlier > > > generations might have had. Indian democracy has proven this > > > unnecessary anyway. > > > > > > Indo-Pak culture-drift and attempts at an unnatural bonhomie > > > > > > There is a delusion among the political class and Indian > people that > > > our shared past can be used to achieve friendly relations between > > > India and Pakistan. My view is that in doing so, we are only > > > reinforcing the internal Islam-Pakistan hyphenation. > > > > > > When historical developments asunder a people, over a period > of time > > > the newly formed groups drift increasingly farther from one > another.> > Once upon time, Myanmar and Sri Lanka were part of > India, just like > > > Pakistan and Bangladesh. Afghanistan was part of several Indian > > > empires. Today, though at a national level we have very cordial > > > relations, they are distinctly unfamiliar to us. > > > > > > Such a natural drift has definitely taken place between India and > > > Pakistan. The strongest bond between us that keeps us in each > others'> > national memories is not anything positive that we > share, but the > > > acrid legacy of partition. It's hard for me as an Indian, for > > > instance, to imagine such an Islamism taking hold of Pakistan > if it > > > were under Akbar's rule. That is, if it were under genuinely > > > Indian-style Islamic rule. > > > > > > I am not suggesting we should actively pursue enmity with > Pakistan or > > > vilify it. However, its being clumped together with Indian > Muslims is > > > simply not healthy for India. What has Pakistan's 'leadership' of > > > subcontinental Muslims, its advocacy of religious supremacism > within,> > and its enmity with India effectively accomplished? It > has robbed > > > India of its genuine Islamic authenticity in the world's eyes, and > > > caused non-Muslim Indians to reject the culture of an un- > Indian enemy. > > > Pakistan has highlighted Indian Muslims' being Islamic and > > =3E consistently de-emphasized their being Indian. > > > > > > Pursuing an unnatural bonhomie with Pakistan and stressing our > > > similarities with them will only weaken our case for our > differences,> > which are very real. To uphold our national > interest, we must assert > > > and amplify these differences. > > > > > > Replace Islam-Pakistan hyphenation with Islam-India > hyphenation in the > > > subcontinent > > > > > > I urge Indians to spearhead a change of perception of Islam in the > > > subcontinent. Anything that prevents Indian Muslims' fully > asserting> > their claim on India as Indian citizens is against > the national > > > interest. The strong association in India between > subcontinental Islam > > > and the present day un-Indian Pakistan must go. > > > > > > It is tempting to claim that all South Asian countries share > Islamic> > civilization equally. It may be polite and civil to do > so, and it may > > > even have some historical merit, but it's a weak claim for our > > > purposes. It doesn't have the necessary boldness and self- > conviction> > to be effective. It also doesn't forcefully argue > for India's Islamic > > > authenticity. Our aim is to end Islam-Pakistan hyphenation for the > > > welfare of a billion humans, not to be fair observers of > history. We > > > must hence push the strongest nationalistic claim possible: > Islam in > > > the subcontinent is Indian, and it always has been. > > > > > > Indian Islam never 'went' anywhere – it is alive and well > amidst us. > > > Our nationalism and constitution are guarantees that it will > > > thrive if > > > Pakistan would let go of it. When the world thinks of Hinduism in > > > South Asia, it thinks of India. Sikhism, it thinks of India. > Buddhism,> > India. When it thinks of Islam in South Asia, it must > think of India. > > > Everyone in the subcontinent will be better off. Everyone. > > > > > > The idea that Islam in the subcontinent is primarily Indian > can gain > > > currency only through a concerted nationalist campaign. No > apologies> > should be made for such a movement. No one need be > convinced of its > > > proponents' "patriotism". The obvious worthiness of the cause, its > > > truth, and its urgency are justifications enough. > > > > > > What ideas might such a campaign seek to make current? > > > > > > The countries in our region share an intertwined, messy > history. We > > > have a lot in common - languages, religions, culture, quirks - all > > > part of our common and colourful heritage. > > > > > > However, if our historical and religious assets must be divided > > > amongst us, then the worthiest inheritor of Islamic heritage > in the > > > subcontinent can only be India. Not Pakistan, not Bangladesh, > not Sri > > > Lanka, not Myanmar, not Nepal. India is the only nation that > has been > > > true to the historical spirit of Indian Islam – that of > flourishing> > alongside other Indic faiths in India. > > > > > > Slay our demons ourselves > > > > > > Has it ever struck you that in our country, we have a vicious > > > circularity of the following sort: we feel dismayed that the > > > country/political class/leadership has done nothing for us; a > form of > > > apathy and resignation sets in; the country/political > class/leadership> > continues to do nothing; we feel increasingly > more dismayed. > > > > > > We are a democracy. We individually must act. Things won't > happen > > > if we don't. > > > I urge Indians to assert India's secularism and nationalism to > fight> > alienation of the Muslim community from Indian > mainstream. This battle > > > is the easier one to win – there are hundreds of millions of > > > reasonable Indians, the Indian constitution, the liberal > press, the > > > legacy of our freedom-generation, and truth and justice on our > side.> > > > > I also urge Indians to fight Pakistani supremacy of subcontinental > > > Islam from the outside. That is the root of all our problems. > That is > > > the key battle in India's war against communalism. We must > learn to > > > say, "Thanks, but no thanks. I understand what you mean, but > this is > > > not really true" to anyone who stresses commonalities of any > sort in > > > the subcontinent. > > > > > > Who will go first? > > > > > > Based on the concept of ownership of our destiny, what are the > answers> > to these questions: > > > > > > "But how can non-Muslims claim that Islam in the subcontinent is > > > Indian when it is represented by Pakistan and Indian Muslims > > > themselves imply so?" > > > > > > "How can Indian Muslims make the Indo-centric claim when there > is a > > > genuine sense of their alienation in India and rest of Indian > society> > accuses them of siding with Pakistan. We cannot move > against Pakstani > > > Muslims. There is a lot in common between us." > > > > > > I don't know! I am definitely going, in my own way. That I > know. I > > > will not ever treat any Indian by as automatically allied with a > > > foreign, inimical power. I will continue making people aware > of the > > > need to end the subcontinental Islam-Pakistan association and > replace> > it with Islam-India. > > > > > > We shall NOT vilify. We shall have faith. > > > > > > Indians should stop vilifying each other. Not because it would be > > > saintly to do so, but because it only weakens our unity. > > > > > > Our nationalism and our constitution are solid stuff. Our greatest > > > generation did their job well. If we must challenge our fellow > > > Indians, invoke these instruments. Face with stead-fast > stoicism any > > > slurs, any accusations of you being an anti-Indian Muslim or a > > > communal Hindutvawadi. Let the diatribe die down. Repeat your > > > arguments invoking our nationalism, constitution, and your > reasoning> > again. Do not ask anyone to 'prove' his or her > patriotism. It's > > > demeaning to do so. > > > > > > Satyameva Jayate – truth alone triumphs. If you are right, you > will> > win. Have faith in our country and in every Indians' > goodness and > > > genuine attachment to their land. > > > > > > Augmenting India's ideological basis > > > > > > Earlier I mentioned that our work on Indian nationhood is not > a frozen > > > process, but a continuing one. We can and must correct any earlier > > > mistakes that continue to torment India's communal harmony. > > > > > > If the greatest challenge the freedom-generation faced was > ending the > > > British rule and forming a stable republic, the greatest challenge > > > before us is to take back leadership of subcontinental Islam from > > > Pakistan. Our challenge is to do this without sacrificing India's > > > secular nature. > > > > > > To tackle our new communal challenges in the 21st century, I > propose> > the following: > > > 1. Secularism will continue to remain the Indian union's lynch > > > pin. It > > > should not, however, require any particular religious group's > giving> > up their right to assert religious solidarity. We should > genuinely> > address any concerns about hypocrisy in the name of > secularism.> > > > > 2. India is a mature concept, and we should actively use it to > tackle> > the challenges before us. Secularism is an integral part > of our > > > nationhood and a historically irreversible development. It follows > > > that religionalism – wherever it is practised – is distinctly > > > un-Indian. Within India, it is also anti-Indian in the sense > that they > > > weaken India and goes against its spirit. > > > > > > 3. The natural heir to Islamic civilisation in the > subcontinent is > > > India. Subcontinental Islam has always been an Indian phenomenon. > > > Pakistan's oft-reinforced association with Indian Muslims must be > > > destroyed. > > > > > > 4. India's brotherhood with its neighbours is dying. Soon > there will > > > be an Indian generation which doesn't have a single Indian > born before > > > partition. Every single human in the subcontinent would have > been born > > > in the countries as they existed after partition. The continuing > > > attempts to maintain an unnatural bonhomie with India's hostile > > > neighbours is not a tenable project - Pakistan has moved too > far away > > > from what was once India. > > > > > > Indian Muslims. India's Islam. > > > > > > A shockingly large amount of our national energy is wasted in > > > countering the effects of Islam-Pakistan hyphenation in the > > > subcontinent. > > > > > > The solution is simple. Reclaim the part of Indian identity > that was > > > robbed of us some 60 years back. If India is Hindu, then for > similar> > reasons, it is also Buddhist, Sikh, Christian - and > Islamic. Purported > > > authority over sub-continental Islam by other entities in the > > > subcontinent is an outrageous farce that must be ended right away. > > > > > > There is no obligation to do this meekly. India doesn't have > > > merely a > > > substantial claim or merely an equal claim. It simply has more > right> > to subcontinental Islamic heritage than anyone else by an > > > overwhelmingly large margin, period. We must use it for our > national> > well-being. > > > > > > Who can assert subcontinental Islam's Indian nature boldly, > loudly,> > without an iota of self-doubt or hesitation? Who needs > this to be done > > > most urgently? Who suffers from a deprivation of their right > to belong > > > to India the most? The Hindus? Sikhs? Buddhists? Christians? > Jains?> > Clearly not. Who else? > > > > > > The Indian Muslims. The others are left distinctly poorer and > their> > country's communal harmony stressed, but their Indian > genuineness is > > > unquestioned within India and the world over. There is not > going > > > to be > > > an un-Indian leader-nation for India's Sikhs, Hindus, Jains, > Buddhists> > and Christians in our neighbourhood any time soon. > > > > > > http://indianmuslims.in/indias-islam/ > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping_________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > > List archive: > > _________________________________________________________________ > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=220 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! > > > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try it now. > > > > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping_________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From tulunadu at hotmail.com Mon Jan 21 14:37:33 2008 From: tulunadu at hotmail.com (Krishna Chaithanya) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:37:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. In-Reply-To: References: <92747.28449.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It all depends on how you want to feel people and religion MAYA was the one I was born into. I had no choice in this matter, like you didn't. I believe in my Dharma, not in shaving my head and dancing to the rythm of drums and hare hare. Hope this answer helps you to feel MAYA KC > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:01:29 +0500 > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > CC: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net > > Hi, > > which shanti and Maya are you talking about, - the one you had as girlfriend during your education or the one you have had after embracing the cult ? Even in hindu way of life, dharma is a means of earning dollars and having princely life with krishna conscious, hope you are not of that type. ? Such have only superficial grasp of Geetha as told by the Lord and get mired in maya of dollars. ! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: chanchal malviya > Date: Monday, January 21, 2008 10:54 am > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > To: Krishna Chaithanya , reader-list at sarai.net > > > You are a selfish person... Realizing Shanti only for you... > > The mantra is far deep than you can even think... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Krishna Chaithanya > > To: reader-list at sarai.net; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:37:06 PM > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > What I know can not be expressed in words. I feel peace within me > > when I Chant OM SHANTHI SHANTHI SHANTHI. > > > > It appears like you you understand what is OM and why there is > > Three Shanthi. But how come there is no sign of peace! > > > > I don't care if any other religion has such slogans in their > > religious books. > > It doesn't make any difference to my belief and faith in the Supreme. > > > > KC > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:44:33 -0800 > > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com > > > > > > Do you understand also... what is OM and why is there Three > > Shanti... > > Do you know any other religion which has such slogans in their > > religious books... > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Krishna Chaithanya > > To: chanchal malviya > > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:28:20 PM > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > > > Om Shanthi Shanti Shanti hi > > > > KC > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:53:35 -0800 > > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > How many bombs you have thrown.. > > Ask this to them... Not us... > > We are reacting.. They are acting... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Krishna Chaithanya > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:19:37 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > > > Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be > > on the society....!? > > > > We bomb them > > and they bomb us > > and we bomb them > > and they bomb us > > together we bomb us > > then who is left to bomb...? > > > > KC > > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:33:09 +0500 > > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > > > Hi, true, it for too long hindus have been tolerent leading to a > > sarcastic comment that they are cowards, may be Nehru was coward > > when India was divided for his greed,may be Krishna menon loved > > chinese vaginas more than indian ones, but now it is time that > > hindu understood the value of SAMA, Dana, BHEDHA are over, dandam > > dashagunam bhaveth. Violence can be stopped only with violent > > means.Then peace will be on the society. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: chanchal malviya > > > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:24 am > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > To: Javed , reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > It is time for Hindus to rise now... > > > > And no dicussion or virtual communities can stop it... > > > > > > > > Swami Vivekanand said - India have enough of religion.. > > > > And it is time now to say this to Christian and Muslims who > > force > > > > conversions the same thing.. > > > > If Sanskrit is the mother of all languages, Hinduism is the > > mother > > > > of all Religions... (But two religions have in particular > > always > > > > learnt to abuse their mother(Hinduism) - Islam and > > Christianity)...> > It is time now to stop the nation from > > producing more Kashmirs... > > > > It is time now to stop the non-Independent Religious India... > > > > > > > > So go on my dear friends as much as you like to abuse Hindus.. > > > > It hardly matters now.. > > > > > > > > Ramayan is proving to be a reality, Mahabharat is a reality.. > > > > History will also change.. > > > > It is Hindus that have taught peace to the world.. but to do > > that > > > > again, the two attackers have to be checked now.. > > > > People are doing that.. And will do that.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: Javed > > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 6:00:16 PM > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > > > > > India's Islam > > > > by Arun Nair > > > > > > > > Firstly, I must apologise if this article smacks of an impolite > > > > urgency and prescriptive-ness. I mean not to be arrogant, but as > > > > someone addressing you on a matter of deep concern to us all, > > I felt > > > > that there was little room for ceremonial apologies before every > > > > sentence. Also, as an Indian middle-class Hindu who grew up in the > > > > Babri-masjid 90s, it is easy for me to say some of the things > > I say > > > > here. > > > > > > > > Secondly, I address you, the reader, as an Indian citizen, not > > as a > > > > saintly Kabir or Gandhi preaching love for humanity. Our > > collective> > interests are being threatened by communal forces > > from within and > > > > without. WE MUST ACT. We must not merely lament about our > > respective> > versions of helplessnesses and others' faults. We > > are free today > > > > because India's greatest generation shook off the ghosts that > > > > bedevilled them, and took action to protect our interests. I > > implore> > you to continue that legacy. > > > > > > > > Thirdly, while I will go into what in my opinion are highly > > plausible> > theories of Indian nationhood and nationalism, my > > primary aim here is > > > > not to write any treatise on politics or sociology, but to > > protect our > > > > rights to belong equally to India – our common ancestral land > > – as > > > > Indians, and as free, dignified humans. > > > > > > > > Fourthly, my ideas will be presented largely based on first > > > > principles, also known as common-sense. > > > > > > > > My thesis is this: India must boldly assert its claim on Islamic > > > > civilisation in the subcontinent. That is the key to end our > > communal> > woes. > > > > > > > > This does not mean that India must become Islamic, or that Indian > > > > Muslims must be somehow Hinduised. The idea, instead, is to > > campaign> > relentlessly for India's Islamic civilisational > > authenticity.> > > > > > In the Indian psyche, Pakistan stands for Islam. Sadly for us and > > > > admittedly in a weaker form, Islam is also synonymous with > > Pakistan> > and everything Pakistani. This wouldn't have been so > > bad if Pakistan > > > > wasn't, well, un-Indian. We must use every tool at our > > disposal as a > > > > people to destroy the entrenched idea of Pakistani ownership of > > > > subcontinental Islam from within India. More importantly, this > > idea> > must be attacked from without it, because that is where it > > originates.> > > > > > Our chief weapon to eliminate Islam-Pakistan hyphenation from the > > > > subcontinent will be an authentic claim: the centre of Islamic > > > > civilisation in South Asia has always been undivided India, > > and after > > > > partition, India is its natural primary heir. The fact that a few > > > > million Muslims left India during partition to settle in our > > erstwhile> > outlying provinces doesn't change this. Neither does > > the fact that the > > > > Indian people chose a progressive, secular, democratic polity for > > > > their republic. > > > > > > > > In our minds and in the world's view, subcontinental Islam is > > under> > Pakistani occupation. The historical Indo-centric nature of > > > > subcontinental Islam should be used to throw off this > > psychological> > yoke. I urge Indians to rally together once again > > as our greatest > > > > generation did to protect our collective interests as the > > people of > > > > India. I urge friends of India all over the world to join us. > > Both in > > > > terms of geography and spirit, Islam in the subcontinent that > > > > coexisted and flourished alongside Indic cultures, has always been > > > > more Indian than Pakistani. If any single country represents > > > > subcontinental Islam as it historically was, it is India. Not > > > > Pakistan. > > > > > > > > India's Mughals. India's Qutub Minar, Gol Gumaz, and Taj Mahal. > > > > India's Kabir. India's Tipu Sultan, Shah Jahan, Akbar, and, > > why not, > > > > Aurangazeb. India's Urdu. India's Ghalib and Khusro. India's > > Delhi,> > Lucknow, Mysore, Hyderabad, Malabar, and Agra. > > > > > > > > Good history has to be deliberately written > > > > > > > > The people of India inherited thousands of years of history and > > > > associated baggage that we didn't really ask for. > > > > > > > > Keep in mind though that history is not a dead object - it is > > > > unfurling even as you read this. We may not be able to change what > > > > happened in India 200 years ago. But 200 years from now when > > people> > look back, they will see the Indian history that our > > generation wrote. > > > > It becomes then our duty, both as Indians and as sensible > > humans, to > > > > write it well. > > > > > > > > It is a great privilege to deliberately be able to write a > > part of > > > > something grand like the history of India. The first > > generation of > > > > Indians who did a coordinated job of writing our history was > > the one > > > > that won us our independence – our "freedom-generation". They > > could> > have attempted to write their Indian chapter any way they > > wanted to. > > > > We could have had a dark, China-style communism, for instance. > > But,> > given the Indian context, the freedom-generation chose the > > most> > egalitarian, elegant, and humanist theme they could come > > up with: a > > > > secular, liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, that > > takes its > > > > strength from its inherent pluralism and its inheritance of > > one of > > > > mankind's greatest civilisations. > > > > > > > > The freedom-generation's legacy for us is the deliberate and > > > > intelligent manner in which they forged an Indian national > > identity.> > Thanks to their efforts, our nationality is a solid > > concept. An Indian > > > > from Karnataka has a robust nationalistic bond with Indians > > say from > > > > Punjab, Gujarat, Assam, or Delhi. Regardless of what languages we > > > > speak, we all recognise Marathi, Tamil, Bengali and Telugu as > > Indian> > languages – ancestral assets that all Indians > > collectively own. > > > > > > > > It is a mistake, however, to think that the nation-building > > task they > > > > began is complete. Indian nationalism is not an idea frozen in > > time,> > but an evolving one. We, the successors of India's > > freedom-generation, > > > > must exercise our prerogative to define its finer contours and > > bring> > in new ideas to enrich it. Furthermore, we have an > > obligation to both > > > > our founding fathers and India's posterity to do this while > > being true > > > > to our quintessential Indian-ness, the just, egalitarian > > nature of our > > > > country as embodied in our constitution. > > > > > > > > Given that India's situation is not as pressing as it once > > was, new > > > > nationalist leaders – giants of the stature of Mahatma Gandhi, > > Khan> > Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Subhash Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh, > > Jawaharlal> > Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad or Vallabhai Patel – may be > > difficult to > > > > emerge. There is no need to though. We succeeded them, and we must > > > > take this task upon ourselves. The freedom-generation watches > > over us > > > > in the form of our fraternity as Indians which they moulded at > > a great > > > > cost, and our constitution. > > > > > > > > Indian Nationalism - the idea of Indian brotherhood > > > > > > > > Amidst all this noisy consternation of Taslima Nasrin, Babri- > > masjid,> > BJP-Congress etc., its easy to lose sight of the really > > big pictures. > > > > Consider, for instance, this question: what really is the > > essence of > > > > Indian nationalism? Why do we all feel so closely tied to > > India > > > > and to > > > > each other? > > > > > > > > My answer is that, to put it simply, without the land we call > > India,> > Indians either have no identity, or very anaemic > > identities. All > > > > Indians share this same curious relation to India. > > > > When we are born to the same human mother, we are brothers. Our > > > > constitution formed by our freedom-generation explicitly asserts > > > > fraternity among the Indian people. Fraternity – brotherhood. > > In what > > > > sense are we brothers? > > > > > > > > Indians are brothers in the sense that the motherland that > > birthed my > > > > identity, also birthed yours. India is our ancestral land, and we > > > > should be proud of everything associated with it. Everything > > in India, > > > > its religions, its good and its bad, its languages, its > > glories and > > > > struggles, its rivers, its emperors, its heroes and villains, > > > > everything – is intricately weaved into our consciousnesses of > > who we > > > > are, where we come from, what our place in this world is, and how > > > > other humans see us. Without that identity, we are crippled. > > > > > > > > Ours is no ordinary brotherhood. Indian people didn't come > > into being > > > > merely a few centuries ago. We are an ancient civilisation, > > and what > > > > we have is a civlisational brotherhood – a bond arising from > > all of > > > > our belonging to the civilisation that unfolded in the same land, > > > > India. That brotherhood was formally declared through the > > constitution> > in 1949, but it existed much before that. Before > > our greatest > > > > generation gave it a concrete wording in the 20th century, it > > was well > > > > moulded in the crucible that is our land, in the fire of the > > previous> > several dozen, if not more, centuries. > > > > > > > > Every country of the world has stories that define their national > > > > essences. What is the most essential feature of Indian > > > > nationalism? It > > > > is our Indian identity – our being tied to India, and our > > > > civilisational brotherhood to each other in being bonded so. All > > > > Indians, regardless of their religion or language, has this > > bond with > > > > India and with each other. > > > > Indians must pause for a while and think why our anthem's > > going over > > > > our landmarks is so emotive. Or why Hindu-Muslim-Sikh-Christian > > > > insignia are powerful. Or why merely thinking of our history, > > or our > > > > Kerala, Karnataka, Maharashtra, UP, Punjab and Bengal moves > > all of us > > > > equally. > > > > > > > > It's because they remind us of our organic ties to India, and the > > > > brotherhood that we have with each other. This natural bond > > given to > > > > us by our glorious and at times bloody history is important. > > If we > > > > don't uphold this bond with the ferocity that our greatest > > generation> > did, if we don't use it to protect our common > > interests, our country > > > > will remain weak. > > > > > > > > Our country's nature > > > > > > > > What is the nature of our country? What does it mean for > > something > > > > to be Indian? > > > > For one, if all of us Indians could get together today and > > declare in > > > > one voice that India stands for certain values, then that > > would be an > > > > authoritative statement. India is what Indians say it is. If, > > say, the > > > > people of the then-Indian civilisation – Hindus, Muslims, > > Christians,> > Buddhists, Sikhs, and Jains – had made such a > > statement 400 years ago > > > > and preserved its spirit through centuries, that would have > > probably> > have been one of the greatest Indian texts. > > > > > > > > If you will recall, a very similar event actually did happen > > in 1949, > > > > when the founding fathers of the Indian republic adopted, > > enacted, and > > > > gave to ourselves - the sovereign people of India - our > > constitution.> > The preamble reads, > > > > > > > > "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to > > constitute India > > > > into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to > > secure> > to all its citizens: > > > > JUSTICE, social, economic and political; > > > > LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; > > > > EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among > > them all > > > > FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the > > unity and > > > > integrity of the Nation. > > > > IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, > > 1949,> > do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS > > CONSTITUTION."> > > > > > In an absolute sense, the values of justice, liberty, and equality > > > > have an intuitive appeal to all humans everywhere. However, the > > > > formidable authority of our constitution comes from the > > crushed but > > > > proud people who paid a very high price for our right to live as > > > > equals and as dignified humans in India. We must take their > > word for > > > > what India is – they must have known and dreamt quite a bit > > about it. > > > > > > > > India's greatest generation definitely realised that divisivism, > > > > self-doubt, and other demons from our past would haunt the > > republic> > they formed. Which is why the constitution is > > important. It helps us > > > > protect our country from ourselves. > > > > > > > > The Constitution. Indian Nationalism. How we will defend India. > > > > > > > > Those who doubt the moral power of our freedom-generation, our > > > > constitutional ethos, and Indian nationalism need only look at > > > > Pakistan, which renounced all these in its attempts not to be > > seen as > > > > Indian. Pakistan's leaders, in trying to defend their divisve > > national> > philosophy, forced the most horrible bankruptcy on its > > people.> > > > > > Rather than using Indian nationalism and the constitution to > > tackle> > our communal issues, I am appalled at the general trend > > to merely > > > > lament that India is on its way to being declared an non- > > secular state > > > > - the hundreds of millions of Indians fully intent on > > preventing this > > > > notwithstanding. > > > > > > > > Pakistan-style Islamism, Ummah-isation of Hinduism, alienation > > of > > > > Indian Muslims > > > > > > > > There are three major trends in India today that are relevant > > to > > > > our topic. > > > > > > > > Firstly, India has very serious conflicts of interest with > > Pakistan.> > We have gone to war with that country several times. > > Its society has > > > > issues with radicalisation and a general religious orthodoxy. Its > > > > regimes have relentlessly attacked India's internal fault- > > lines over > > > > the past few decades in the name of Islam. Tens of thousands > > of Indian > > > > soldiers have died defending our country against them. It is > > > > distinctly un-Indian and anti-Indian. > > > > > > > > Secondly, Hinduism is, for the lack of a better word, Ummah- > > ising, and > > > > this at times takes horrifyingly militant forms. I, given my > > personal> > biases, am all for Hindu solidarity and abolishing > > pseudo-secularism. > > > > However, an argument for Hindu-solidarity should not be > > allowed to > > > > take the form of an un-Indian religionalism that goes against > > the very > > > > spirit of India. > > > > > > > > Thirdly, Indian Muslims feel alienated from their own country. In > > > > India, Pakistan is synonymous with Islam. Unfortunately, Islam > > is also > > > > weakly synonymous with Pakistan. This has significantly undermined > > > > Indian Muslims' political standing in India vis-a-vis their fellow > > > > citizens. > > > > > > > > The havoc all this has wreaked on our society must not be ignored. > > > > India was home to one of humanity's greatest Islamic cultures > > for well > > > > over 1000 years. It is not, by any means, a dead part of our > > > > culture - > > > > nearly 160 million Indians are Muslims, several national icons are > > > > Muslims, mosques and Islamic architecture litter the country, and > > > > Muslim holidays are shared by all. And yet, to a lot of > > Indians, Islam > > > > doesn't feel Indian, but Pakistani. Despite their respective > > religious> > majorities, it is odd that Buddhism doesn't feel Sri > > Lankan, or > > > > Hinduism itself, Nepali. > > > > > > > > The partition of India and secular India's deprivation of its > > Islamic> > authenticity > > > > > > > > Has anyone thought what has actually happened here? Why is it > > that in > > > > India, an ancient civilisational land which has a unique Islamic > > > > culture just like Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, Islam is seen as somehow > > > > foreign? That is not because of Islam's being inconsistent > > with India > > > > – 1000 years and more of history and our combined freedom struggle > > > > should have proven this by now. > > > > > > > > During partition, founders of Pakistan expropriated the > > subcontinent's> > Islamic identity for defining their nation, > > Pakistan. Pakistan's > > > > struggle to keep its ideology alive has robbed us of our Islamic > > > > authenticity. India's secular nature not-withstanding, the > > ardour with > > > > which Pakistan argued itsideology and pushed its exclusivist > > national> > philosophy within the larger Islamic community ensured > > that it gained > > > > some traction in the Indian society. Pakistan's military conflicts > > > > with "Hindu" India only amplified this. > > > > > > > > It only takes a few of decades of intense activity for a new > > Zeitgeist> > to take root in a society. Consider denazification of > > Germany, China's > > > > turn into capitalism, and India's own economic liberalisation. 30 > > > > years – that is all it takes for a young generation to grow up > > shaped> > by a pervasive ideology. > > > > > > > > Though quite smaller than India, Pakistan is by no means a tiny > > > > nation. It is the world's 6th most populous country, one of > > its major > > > > economies, and a prominent player during the cold war. One > > cannot find > > > > fault with it - Pakistan had to defend its national > > philosophy. It has > > > > expended a tremendous amount of national effort over the last > > 60 years > > > > in achieving a strong association between subcontinental Islam and > > > > itself. > > > > > > > > They have succeeded splendidly. Islam in the subcontinent > > today is > > > > seen as prominently Pakistani and India's secular fabric > > warped by > > > > that perception. Pakistan is an Islamic nation - this somehow > > gives> > them a stronger claim on everything Islamic in the > > subcontinent. The > > > > world simply does not recognise India's Islamic authenticity, and > > > > neither do many Indians within. India continues to be associated > > > > primarily with Hinduism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, but not Islam. > > > > > > > > Does religious brotherhood entirely negate the organic bonds a > > human> > has to his ancestral land and its history, and to his > > fellow humans > > > > who share the same bonds as him? I don't really know. What I > > do know > > > > is that this is not the principle on which the Indian republic was > > > > founded, and its definitely not an Indian value. Religious > > supremacism> > and breaking up of Indian people are un-Indian > > philosophies. It goes > > > > against the very spirit of our freedom struggle, nationalism, > > and our > > > > constitution. > > > > > > > > Indians must remember that new Pakistani generations do not > > even have > > > > the same right to speak for India's Muslims that their earlier > > > > generations might have had. Indian democracy has proven this > > > > unnecessary anyway. > > > > > > > > Indo-Pak culture-drift and attempts at an unnatural bonhomie > > > > > > > > There is a delusion among the political class and Indian > > people that > > > > our shared past can be used to achieve friendly relations between > > > > India and Pakistan. My view is that in doing so, we are only > > > > reinforcing the internal Islam-Pakistan hyphenation. > > > > > > > > When historical developments asunder a people, over a period > > of time > > > > the newly formed groups drift increasingly farther from one > > another.> > Once upon time, Myanmar and Sri Lanka were part of > > India, just like > > > > Pakistan and Bangladesh. Afghanistan was part of several Indian > > > > empires. Today, though at a national level we have very cordial > > > > relations, they are distinctly unfamiliar to us. > > > > > > > > Such a natural drift has definitely taken place between India and > > > > Pakistan. The strongest bond between us that keeps us in each > > others'> > national memories is not anything positive that we > > share, but the > > > > acrid legacy of partition. It's hard for me as an Indian, for > > > > instance, to imagine such an Islamism taking hold of Pakistan > > if it > > > > were under Akbar's rule. That is, if it were under genuinely > > > > Indian-style Islamic rule. > > > > > > > > I am not suggesting we should actively pursue enmity with > > Pakistan or > > > > vilify it. However, its being clumped together with Indian > > Muslims is > > > > simply not healthy for India. What has Pakistan's 'leadership' of > > > > subcontinental Muslims, its advocacy of religious supremacism > > within,> > and its enmity with India effectively accomplished? It > > has robbed > > > > India of its genuine Islamic authenticity in the world's eyes, and > > > > caused non-Muslim Indians to reject the culture of an un- > > Indian enemy. > > > > Pakistan has highlighted Indian Muslims' being Islamic and > > > =3E consistently de-emphasized their being Indian. > > > > > > > > Pursuing an unnatural bonhomie with Pakistan and stressing our > > > > similarities with them will only weaken our case for our > > differences,> > which are very real. To uphold our national > > interest, we must assert > > > > and amplify these differences. > > > > > > > > Replace Islam-Pakistan hyphenation with Islam-India > > hyphenation in the > > > > subcontinent > > > > > > > > I urge Indians to spearhead a change of perception of Islam in the > > > > subcontinent. Anything that prevents Indian Muslims' fully > > asserting> > their claim on India as Indian citizens is against > > the national > > > > interest. The strong association in India between > > subcontinental Islam > > > > and the present day un-Indian Pakistan must go. > > > > > > > > It is tempting to claim that all South Asian countries share > > Islamic> > civilization equally. It may be polite and civil to do > > so, and it may > > > > even have some historical merit, but it's a weak claim for our > > > > purposes. It doesn't have the necessary boldness and self- > > conviction> > to be effective. It also doesn't forcefully argue > > for India's Islamic > > > > authenticity. Our aim is to end Islam-Pakistan hyphenation for the > > > > welfare of a billion humans, not to be fair observers of > > history. We > > > > must hence push the strongest nationalistic claim possible: > > Islam in > > > > the subcontinent is Indian, and it always has been. > > > > > > > > Indian Islam never 'went' anywhere – it is alive and well > > amidst us. > > > > Our nationalism and constitution are guarantees that it will > > > > thrive if > > > > Pakistan would let go of it. When the world thinks of Hinduism in > > > > South Asia, it thinks of India. Sikhism, it thinks of India. > > Buddhism,> > India. When it thinks of Islam in South Asia, it must > > think of India. > > > > Everyone in the subcontinent will be better off. Everyone. > > > > > > > > The idea that Islam in the subcontinent is primarily Indian > > can gain > > > > currency only through a concerted nationalist campaign. No > > apologies> > should be made for such a movement. No one need be > > convinced of its > > > > proponents' "patriotism". The obvious worthiness of the cause, its > > > > truth, and its urgency are justifications enough. > > > > > > > > What ideas might such a campaign seek to make current? > > > > > > > > The countries in our region share an intertwined, messy > > history. We > > > > have a lot in common - languages, religions, culture, quirks - all > > > > part of our common and colourful heritage. > > > > > > > > However, if our historical and religious assets must be divided > > > > amongst us, then the worthiest inheritor of Islamic heritage > > in the > > > > subcontinent can only be India. Not Pakistan, not Bangladesh, > > not Sri > > > > Lanka, not Myanmar, not Nepal. India is the only nation that > > has been > > > > true to the historical spirit of Indian Islam – that of > > flourishing> > alongside other Indic faiths in India. > > > > > > > > Slay our demons ourselves > > > > > > > > Has it ever struck you that in our country, we have a vicious > > > > circularity of the following sort: we feel dismayed that the > > > > country/political class/leadership has done nothing for us; a > > form of > > > > apathy and resignation sets in; the country/political > > class/leadership> > continues to do nothing; we feel increasingly > > more dismayed. > > > > > > > > We are a democracy. We individually must act. Things won't > > happen > > > > if we don't. > > > > I urge Indians to assert India's secularism and nationalism to > > fight> > alienation of the Muslim community from Indian > > mainstream. This battle > > > > is the easier one to win – there are hundreds of millions of > > > > reasonable Indians, the Indian constitution, the liberal > > press, the > > > > legacy of our freedom-generation, and truth and justice on our > > side.> > > > > > I also urge Indians to fight Pakistani supremacy of subcontinental > > > > Islam from the outside. That is the root of all our problems. > > That is > > > > the key battle in India's war against communalism. We must > > learn to > > > > say, "Thanks, but no thanks. I understand what you mean, but > > this is > > > > not really true" to anyone who stresses commonalities of any > > sort in > > > > the subcontinent. > > > > > > > > Who will go first? > > > > > > > > Based on the concept of ownership of our destiny, what are the > > answers> > to these questions: > > > > > > > > "But how can non-Muslims claim that Islam in the subcontinent is > > > > Indian when it is represented by Pakistan and Indian Muslims > > > > themselves imply so?" > > > > > > > > "How can Indian Muslims make the Indo-centric claim when there > > is a > > > > genuine sense of their alienation in India and rest of Indian > > society> > accuses them of siding with Pakistan. We cannot move > > against Pakstani > > > > Muslims. There is a lot in common between us." > > > > > > > > I don't know! I am definitely going, in my own way. That I > > know. I > > > > will not ever treat any Indian by as automatically allied with a > > > > foreign, inimical power. I will continue making people aware > > of the > > > > need to end the subcontinental Islam-Pakistan association and > > replace> > it with Islam-India. > > > > > > > > We shall NOT vilify. We shall have faith. > > > > > > > > Indians should stop vilifying each other. Not because it would be > > > > saintly to do so, but because it only weakens our unity. > > > > > > > > Our nationalism and our constitution are solid stuff. Our greatest > > > > generation did their job well. If we must challenge our fellow > > > > Indians, invoke these instruments. Face with stead-fast > > stoicism any > > > > slurs, any accusations of you being an anti-Indian Muslim or a > > > > communal Hindutvawadi. Let the diatribe die down. Repeat your > > > > arguments invoking our nationalism, constitution, and your > > reasoning> > again. Do not ask anyone to 'prove' his or her > > patriotism. It's > > > > demeaning to do so. > > > > > > > > Satyameva Jayate – truth alone triumphs. If you are right, you > > will> > win. Have faith in our country and in every Indians' > > goodness and > > > > genuine attachment to their land. > > > > > > > > Augmenting India's ideological basis > > > > > > > > Earlier I mentioned that our work on Indian nationhood is not > > a frozen > > > > process, but a continuing one. We can and must correct any earlier > > > > mistakes that continue to torment India's communal harmony. > > > > > > > > If the greatest challenge the freedom-generation faced was > > ending the > > > > British rule and forming a stable republic, the greatest challenge > > > > before us is to take back leadership of subcontinental Islam from > > > > Pakistan. Our challenge is to do this without sacrificing India's > > > > secular nature. > > > > > > > > To tackle our new communal challenges in the 21st century, I > > propose> > the following: > > > > 1. Secularism will continue to remain the Indian union's lynch > > > > pin. It > > > > should not, however, require any particular religious group's > > giving> > up their right to assert religious solidarity. We should > > genuinely> > address any concerns about hypocrisy in the name of > > secularism.> > > > > > 2. India is a mature concept, and we should actively use it to > > tackle> > the challenges before us. Secularism is an integral part > > of our > > > > nationhood and a historically irreversible development. It follows > > > > that religionalism – wherever it is practised – is distinctly > > > > un-Indian. Within India, it is also anti-Indian in the sense > > that they > > > > weaken India and goes against its spirit. > > > > > > > > 3. The natural heir to Islamic civilisation in the > > subcontinent is > > > > India. Subcontinental Islam has always been an Indian phenomenon. > > > > Pakistan's oft-reinforced association with Indian Muslims must be > > > > destroyed. > > > > > > > > 4. India's brotherhood with its neighbours is dying. Soon > > there will > > > > be an Indian generation which doesn't have a single Indian > > born before > > > > partition. Every single human in the subcontinent would have > > been born > > > > in the countries as they existed after partition. The continuing > > > > attempts to maintain an unnatural bonhomie with India's hostile > > > > neighbours is not a tenable project - Pakistan has moved too > > far away > > > > from what was once India. > > > > > > > > Indian Muslims. India's Islam. > > > > > > > > A shockingly large amount of our national energy is wasted in > > > > countering the effects of Islam-Pakistan hyphenation in the > > > > subcontinent. > > > > > > > > The solution is simple. Reclaim the part of Indian identity > > that was > > > > robbed of us some 60 years back. If India is Hindu, then for > > similar> > reasons, it is also Buddhist, Sikh, Christian - and > > Islamic. Purported > > > > authority over sub-continental Islam by other entities in the > > > > subcontinent is an outrageous farce that must be ended right away. > > > > > > > > There is no obligation to do this meekly. India doesn't have > > > > merely a > > > > substantial claim or merely an equal claim. It simply has more > > right> > to subcontinental Islamic heritage than anyone else by an > > > > overwhelmingly large margin, period. We must use it for our > > national> > well-being. > > > > > > > > Who can assert subcontinental Islam's Indian nature boldly, > > loudly,> > without an iota of self-doubt or hesitation? Who needs > > this to be done > > > > most urgently? Who suffers from a deprivation of their right > > to belong > > > > to India the most? The Hindus? Sikhs? Buddhists? Christians? > > Jains?> > Clearly not. Who else? > > > > > > > > The Indian Muslims. The others are left distinctly poorer and > > their> > country's communal harmony stressed, but their Indian > > genuineness is > > > > unquestioned within India and the world over. There is not > > going > > > > to be > > > > an un-Indian leader-nation for India's Sikhs, Hindus, Jains, > > Buddhists> > and Christians in our neighbourhood any time soon. > > > > > > > > http://indianmuslims.in/indias-islam/ > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping_________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > list > > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=220 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! > > > > > > > > > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > Try it now. > > > > > > > > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping_________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=220 From anirudhsbh at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 21:12:20 2008 From: anirudhsbh at gmail.com (Anirudh) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:12:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Urbanstudy] "regulators should intervene in banker's pay" by Martin Wolf In-Reply-To: <542688.61228.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <542688.61228.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The answer? http://www.theatlasphere.com/columns/elder-mortgage-crisis.php http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2007/12/03/predatory-business-act-oped-cx_yb_1204predatory.html On Jan 18, 2008 9:11 AM, lalitha kamath wrote: > FYI > > Regulators should intervene in bankers' pay > > By Martin Wolf > > Published: January 15 2008 17:35 | Last updated: January 16 2008 05:16 > > You really don't like bankers, do you?" The question, asked by a former > banker I met last week, set me back. "Not at all," I replied. "Some of > my best friends are bankers." While true, it was not the whole truth. I > may like many bankers, but I rather dislike banks. I recognise their > necessity, but fear their irresponsibility. Worse, they are > irresponsible partly because they know they are necessary. > > My attitude to the banking industry is not a prejudice. It is a > "postjudice". My first experience with out-of-control banking was when I > watched the irresponsible lending that led to the devastating > developing-country debt crises of the 1980s. > > The world has witnessed well over 100 significant banking crises over > the past three decades. The authorities have even had to rescue > important parts of the US financial system – on most counts, the world's > most sophisticated – four times during the same period: from the > developing country debt and "savings and loan" crises of the 1980s to > the commercial property crisis of the early 1990s and now the subprime > and securitised-credit crisis of 2007-08. > > No industry has a comparable talent for privatising gains and > socialising losses. Participants in no other industry get as > self-righteously angry when public officials – particularly, central > bankers – fail to come at once to their rescue when they get into > (well-deserved) trouble. > > Yet they are right to expect rescue. They know that as long as they make > the same mistakes together – as "sound bankers" do – the official sector > must ride to the rescue. Bankers are able to take the economy and so the > voting public hostage. Governments have no choice but to respond. > > Nor is it all that difficult to understand the incentives at work. I > gave the broad answer in my column, " Why banking is an accident waiting > to happen" (FT, November 27 2007). > > It is the nature of limited liability businesses to create conflicts of > interest – between management and shareholders, between management and > other employees, between the business and customers and between the > business and regulators. Yet the conflicts of interest created by large > financial institutions are far harder to manage than in any other > industry. > > That is so for three fundamental reasons: first, these are virtually the > only businesses able to devastate entire economies; second, in no other > industry is uncertainty so pervasive; and, finally, in no other industry > is it as hard for outsiders to judge the quality of decision-making, at > least in the short run. This industry is, in consequence, exceptional in > the extent of both regulation and subsidisation. Yet this combination > can hardly be deemed a success. The present crisis in the world's most > sophisticated financial system demonstrates that. > > I now fear that the combination of the fragility of the financial system > with the huge rewards it generates for insiders will destroy something > even more important – the political legitimacy of the market economy > itself – across the globe. So it is time to start thinking radical > thoughts about how to fix the problems. > > Up to now the main official effort has been to combine support with > regulation: capital ratios, risk-management systems and so forth. I > myself argued for higher capital requirements. Yet there are obvious > difficulties with all these efforts: it is child's play for brilliant > and motivated insiders to game such regulation for their benefit. > > So what are the alternatives? Many market liberals would prefer to leave > the financial sector to the rigours of the free market. Alas, the > evidence of history is clear: we, the public, are unable to live with > the consequences. > > An alternative suggestion is "narrow banking" combined with an > unregulated (and unprotected) financial system. Narrow banks would > invest in government securities, run the payment system and offer safe > deposits to the public. The drawback of this ostensibly attractive idea > is obvious: what is unregulated is likely to turn out to be dangerous, > whereupon governments would be dragged back into the mess. > > No, the only way to deal with this challenge is to address the > incentives head on and, as Raghuram Rajan, former chief economist of the > International Monetary Fund, argued in a brilliant article last week (" > Bankers' pay is deeply flawed", FT, January 9 2008), the central > conflict is between the employees (above all, management) and everybody > else. By paying huge bonuses on the basis of short-term performance in a > system in which negative bonuses are impossible, banks create gigantic > incentives to disguise risk-taking as value-creation. > > We would be better off with Jupiter's 12-year "year", since it takes > about that long to know how profitable strategies have been. The point > is that a year is an astronomical, not an economic, phenomenon (as it > once was, when harvests were decisive). So we must ensure that a > substantial part of pay is better aligned to the realities of the > business: that is, is made in restricted stock redeemable over a run of > years (ideally, as many as 10). > > Yet individual institutions cannot change their systems of remuneration > on their own, without losing talented staff to the competition. So > regulators may have to step in. The idea of such official intervention > is horrible, but the alternative of endlessly repeated crises is even > worse. > > The big points here are, first, we cannot pretend that the way the > financial system behaves is not a matter of public interest – just look > at what is happening in the US and UK today; and, second, if the problem > is to be fixed, incentives for decision-makers have to be better aligned > with the outcomes. > > The further question is how far that regulatory net should stretch. I > believe it should cover all systemically important financial > institutions. Drawing the line will not be simple, but that is a problem > with all regulation. It is not insoluble. The question the authorities > need to ask themselves is simple: if a specific institution fell into > substantial difficulty would they have to intervene? > > If the conflict of interest that dominates all others is between > employees and everybody else, then it must be fixed. All bonuses and a > portion of salary for top managers should be paid in restricted stock, > redeemable in instalments over, say, 10 years or, if regulators are > feeling generous, five. I understand that the bankers will not like > this. Yet one thing is surely now quite clear: just as war is too > important to be left to generals, banking is too important to be left to > bankers, however much one may like them. > > martin.wolf at ft.com > > Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2008 > > cross-posted from DEBATE > > > ------------------------------ > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it > now. > > _______________________________________________ > Urbanstudygroup mailing list > Urban Study Group: Reading the South Asian City > > To subscribe or browse the Urban Study Group archives, please visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/urbanstudygroup > > From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Mon Jan 21 13:23:30 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:53:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Message-ID: <805001.40321.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> You have never understood Geeta... You think everything is done by Supreme and he will take care of everything... Poor guy... You are running away from Duty... And your understanding is also pitiful... You feel I throw Venom... There is one thing for sure - you have not seen your mother or sister dragged out of your home for enjoyment (I say yours because you have never considered other's mothers or sisters as your own)... Talking HInduim is Venom for you... It is better you talk Bible and Quran.. That is the right place for you... and they are the real friend of yours... I do not consider Muslims as my friend, unless he allows me to enter Masjid and read Namaj and he also enters my temple to pray with me... I do not consider Christians as my friend, unless he stops to convert Hindus and let us remain as humans as we were born... May be, you can pay to Christians for Conversion and help Terrorist to place bombs - for your ideology is - everything is done by the Supreme... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:07:54 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Who am 'I' to teach anybody? The Supreme teaches everyone. The Supreme creates Adharmis and then kills them. The Supreme creates Dhryodhana and then creates Arjuna. The Supreme creates Chanchal, me and all others whom Chanchal hates or dislikes. If they are Adharmis, the Supreme will destroy them. But the Supreme makes Chanchal restless, and makes Chanchal spew venom on people who disagree with Chanchal or have a different view point. And Chanchal forgets that Chanchal is created by the Supreme and the people who disagree are also created by the Supreme and then challenges others into comparision of holy books (as if they are the menu cards of different restaurants) Do yo need words to describe MAYA? OM SHANTI KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:24:59 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net I am sorry... I cannot dare to say that I am Lord Krishna... But I must dare to say that Arjuna need to be created... Paritranay Sadhunam Vinasaycha Dushkritam... DharmaSansthapnarthaya Sambhavami Yuge Yuge... Even God has to kill the Adharmis (be that be then Ravana or Kansa).. be that be then the Terrorised Invaders... Gandhi philosophy has weakened this nation... This nation was protected by Prithvi Raj Chauhan, Rana Pratap, Chhatrapati Shivaji, and so many of them.... This nation was also loved by Bhagat Singh, Subhas Chandra Bose, ChandraShekhar Ajad, Veer Savarkar, etc... This nation do not belong to Gandhi alone.. This nation do not belong to Sonia who has given free hands to Christians to convert Hindus to Christianity (and stupid Hindus are fighting with me here about their own Dharma without knowing anything)... This nation do not belong to Congress who have given every right to Terrorist under Bukhari to force Islamic law in various states over Hindus (and stupid Hindus do not have the gut and sense to even protect and respect their own Dharma)... I dont want to talk to you further... You can sell your house and your people in hands of Christianity and Islam... I cannot... For me my dignity lies in holding my own self and my own self lies in being a Hindu - a Bharat wasi... Let me live with this and let me have people of this thought around me... For you, teach what you are teaching me to a Muslim... and you will know the truth... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 12:21:51 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Are baba, Who is this 'you' and who is this 'I' who am 'I' to differentiate between what is Dharma and What is Adharma, it is already differentiated. Don't be sorry... it is understandable that in this material world any scholar would get lost. Action is living Dharma and doing Karma. When a society forgets that, to remind them invaders come. And if the invaded do not realise why they are invaded get back to theuir Dharma and Karma, they will be dominated for thousands of years. History of the world is that. Are you claiming that you are lord Krishna and therefore talking of creating Arjuna....? I would say blasphemy! KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:37:00 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net After reading Bhagwad Geeta, if you are not able to differentiate between what is Dhrama and what is Adharma... What is Sattvika and what is Tamasika... I am sorry... Bhagwad Geeta is not a a book for those who have given up action... It is for those who knows what is duty (not religion for Dharma means duty in Hinduism and not Religion, unlike all other religion).... And now when Adharma is coming on top of Dharma, it is now time to create Arjuna, who can understand Geeta and perform action in protection of Dharma... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:48:27 AM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Dear Chanchal, Who is this 'You' that you mention. Am I not you...? are you not me...? who is the thinker...? Mantra is not for thinking it is for feeling... experiencing. May be you should read Sri Mad Bagavadgeeta again. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:22:05 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net You are a selfish person... Realizing Shanti only for you... The mantra is far deep than you can even think... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: reader-list at sarai.net; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:37:06 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. What I know can not be expressed in words. I feel peace within me when I Chant OM SHANTHI SHANTHI SHANTHI. It appears like you you understand what is OM and why there is Three Shanthi. But how come there is no sign of peace! I don't care if any other religion has such slogans in their religious books. It doesn't make any difference to my belief and faith in the Supreme. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:44:33 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com Do you understand also... what is OM and why is there Three Shanti... Do you know any other religion which has such slogans in their religious books... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:28:20 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Om Shanthi Shanti Shanti hi KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:53:35 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net How many bombs you have thrown.. Ask this to them... Not us... We are reacting.. They are acting... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:19:37 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society....!? We bomb them and they bomb us and we bomb them and they bomb us together we bomb us then who is left to bomb...? KC > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:33:09 +0500 > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > Hi, true, it for too long hindus have been tolerent leading to a sarcastic comment that they are cowards, may be Nehru was coward when India was divided for his greed,may be Krishna menon loved chinese vaginas more than indian ones, but now it is time that hindu understood the value of SAMA, Dana, BHEDHA are over, dandam dashagunam bhaveth. Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: chanchal malviya > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:24 am > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > To: Javed , reader-list at sarai.net > > > It is time for Hindus to rise now... > > And no dicussion or virtual communities can stop it... > > > > Swami Vivekanand said - India have enough of religion.. > > And it is time now to say this to Christian and Muslims who force > > conversions the same thing.. > > If Sanskrit is the mother of all languages, Hinduism is the mother > > of all Religions... (But two religions have in particular always > > learnt to abuse their mother(Hinduism) - Islam and Christianity)... > > It is time now to stop the nation from producing more Kashmirs... > > It is time now to stop the non-Independent Religious India... > > > > So go on my dear friends as much as you like to abuse Hindus.. > > It hardly matters now.. > > > > Ramayan is proving to be a reality, Mahabharat is a reality.. > > History will also change.. > > It is Hindus that have taught peace to the world.. but to do that > > again, the two attackers have to be checked now.. > > People are doing that.. And will do that.. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Javed > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 6:00:16 PM > > Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > India's Islam > > by Arun Nair > > > > Firstly, I must apologise if this article smacks of an impolite > > urgency and prescriptive-ness. I mean not to be arrogant, but as > > someone addressing you on a matter of deep concern to us all, I felt > > that there was little room for ceremonial apologies before every > > sentence. Also, as an Indian middle-class Hindu who grew up in the > > Babri-masjid 90s, it is easy for me to say some of the things I say > > here. > > > > Secondly, I address you, the reader, as an Indian citizen, not as a > > saintly Kabir or Gandhi preaching love for humanity. Our collective > > interests are being threatened by communal forces from within and > > without. WE MUST ACT. We must not merely lament about our respective > > versions of helplessnesses and others' faults. We are free today > > because India's greatest generation shook off the ghosts that > > bedevilled them, and took action to protect our interests. I implore > > you to continue that legacy. > > > > Thirdly, while I will go into what in my opinion are highly plausible > > theories of Indian nationhood and nationalism, my primary aim here is > > not to write any treatise on politics or sociology, but to protect our > > rights to belong equally to India – our common ancestral land – as > > Indians, and as free, dignified humans. > > > > Fourthly, my ideas will be presented largely based on first > > principles, also known as common-sense. > > > > My thesis is this: India must boldly assert its claim on Islamic > > civilisation in the subcontinent. That is the key to end our communal > > woes. > > > > This does not mean that India must become Islamic, or that Indian > > Muslims must be somehow Hinduised. The idea, instead, is to campaign > > relentlessly for India's Islamic civilisational authenticity. > > > > In the Indian psyche, Pakistan stands for Islam. Sadly for us and > > admittedly in a weaker form, Islam is also synonymous with Pakistan > > and everything Pakistani. This wouldn't have been so bad if Pakistan > > wasn't, well, un-Indian. We must use every tool at our disposal as a > > people to destroy the entrenched idea of Pakistani ownership of > > subcontinental Islam from within India. More importantly, this idea > > must be attacked from without it, because that is where it originates. > > > > Our chief weapon to eliminate Islam-Pakistan hyphenation from the > > subcontinent will be an authentic claim: the centre of Islamic > > civilisation in South Asia has always been undivided India, and after > > partition, India is its natural primary heir. The fact that a few > > million Muslims left India during partition to settle in our erstwhile > > outlying provinces doesn't change this. Neither does the fact that the > > Indian people chose a progressive, secular, democratic polity for > > their republic. > > > > In our minds and in the world's view, subcontinental Islam is under > > Pakistani occupation. The historical Indo-centric nature of > > subcontinental Islam should be used to throw off this psychological > > yoke. I urge Indians to rally together once again as our greatest > > generation did to protect our collective interests as the people of > > India. I urge friends of India all over the world to join us. Both in > > terms of geography and spirit, Islam in the subcontinent that > > coexisted and flourished alongside Indic cultures, has always been > > more Indian than Pakistani. If any single country represents > > subcontinental Islam as it historically was, it is India. Not > > Pakistan. > > > > India's Mughals. India's Qutub Minar, Gol Gumaz, and Taj Mahal. > > India's Kabir. India's Tipu Sultan, Shah Jahan, Akbar, and, why not, > > Aurangazeb. India's Urdu. India's Ghalib and Khusro. India's Delhi, > > Lucknow, Mysore, Hyderabad, Malabar, and Agra. > > > > Good history has to be deliberately written > > > > The people of India inherited thousands of years of history and > > associated baggage that we didn't really ask for. > > > > Keep in mind though that history is not a dead object - it is > > unfurling even as you read this. We may not be able to change what > > happened in India 200 years ago. But 200 years from now when people > > look back, they will see the Indian history that our generation wrote. > > It becomes then our duty, both as Indians and as sensible humans, to > > write it well. > > > > It is a great privilege to deliberately be able to write a part of > > something grand like the history of India. The first generation of > > Indians who did a coordinated job of writing our history was the one > > that won us our independence – our "freedom-generation". They could > > have attempted to write their Indian chapter any way they wanted to. > > We could have had a dark, China-style communism, for instance. But, > > given the Indian context, the freedom-generation chose the most > > egalitarian, elegant, and humanist theme they could come up with: a > > secular, liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, that takes its > > strength from its inherent pluralism and its inheritance of one of > > mankind's greatest civilisations. > > > > The freedom-generation's legacy for us is the deliberate and > > intelligent manner in which they forged an Indian national identity. > > Thanks to their efforts, our nationality is a solid concept. An Indian > > from Karnataka has a robust nationalistic bond with Indians say from > > Punjab, Gujarat, Assam, or Delhi. Regardless of what languages we > > speak, we all recognise Marathi, Tamil, Bengali and Telugu as Indian > > languages – ancestral assets that all Indians collectively own. > > > > It is a mistake, however, to think that the nation-building task they > > began is complete. Indian nationalism is not an idea frozen in time, > > but an evolving one. We, the successors of India's freedom-generation, > > must exercise our prerogative to define its finer contours and bring > > in new ideas to enrich it. Furthermore, we have an obligation to both > > our founding fathers and India's posterity to do this while being true > > to our quintessential Indian-ness, the just, egalitarian nature of our > > country as embodied in our constitution. > > > > Given that India's situation is not as pressing as it once was, new > > nationalist leaders – giants of the stature of Mahatma Gandhi, Khan > > Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Subhash Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh, Jawaharlal > > Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad or Vallabhai Patel – may be difficult to > > emerge. There is no need to though. We succeeded them, and we must > > take this task upon ourselves. The freedom-generation watches over us > > in the form of our fraternity as Indians which they moulded at a great > > cost, and our constitution. > > > > Indian Nationalism - the idea of Indian brotherhood > > > > Amidst all this noisy consternation of Taslima Nasrin, Babri-masjid, > > BJP-Congress etc., its easy to lose sight of the really big pictures. > > Consider, for instance, this question: what really is the essence of > > Indian nationalism? Why do we all feel so closely tied to India > > and to > > each other? > > > > My answer is that, to put it simply, without the land we call India, > > Indians either have no identity, or very anaemic identities. All > > Indians share this same curious relation to India. > > When we are born to the same human mother, we are brothers. Our > > constitution formed by our freedom-generation explicitly asserts > > fraternity among the Indian people. Fraternity – brotherhood. In what > > sense are we brothers? > > > > Indians are brothers in the sense that the motherland that birthed my > > identity, also birthed yours. India is our ancestral land, and we > > should be proud of everything associated with it. Everything in India, > > its religions, its good and its bad, its languages, its glories and > > struggles, its rivers, its emperors, its heroes and villains, > > everything – is intricately weaved into our consciousnesses of who we > > are, where we come from, what our place in this world is, and how > > other humans see us. Without that identity, we are crippled. > > > > Ours is no ordinary brotherhood. Indian people didn't come into being > > merely a few centuries ago. We are an ancient civilisation, and what > > we have is a civlisational brotherhood – a bond arising from all of > > our belonging to the civilisation that unfolded in the same land, > > India. That brotherhood was formally declared through the constitution > > in 1949, but it existed much before that. Before our greatest > > generation gave it a concrete wording in the 20th century, it was well > > moulded in the crucible that is our land, in the fire of the previous > > several dozen, if not more, centuries. > > > > Every country of the world has stories that define their national > > essences. What is the most essential feature of Indian > > nationalism? It > > is our Indian identity – our being tied to India, and our > > civilisational brotherhood to each other in being bonded so. All > > Indians, regardless of their religion or language, has this bond with > > India and with each other. > > Indians must pause for a while and think why our anthem's going over > > our landmarks is so emotive. Or why Hindu-Muslim-Sikh-Christian > > insignia are powerful. Or why merely thinking of our history, or our > > Kerala, Karnataka, Maharashtra, UP, Punjab and Bengal moves all of us > > equally. > > > > It's because they remind us of our organic ties to India, and the > > brotherhood that we have with each other. This natural bond given to > > us by our glorious and at times bloody history is important. If we > > don't uphold this bond with the ferocity that our greatest generation > > did, if we don't use it to protect our common interests, our country > > will remain weak. > > > > Our country's nature > > > > What is the nature of our country? What does it mean for something > > to be Indian? > > For one, if all of us Indians could get together today and declare in > > one voice that India stands for certain values, then that would be an > > authoritative statement. India is what Indians say it is. If, say, the > > people of the then-Indian civilisation – Hindus, Muslims, Christians, > > Buddhists, Sikhs, and Jains – had made such a statement 400 years ago > > and preserved its spirit through centuries, that would have probably > > have been one of the greatest Indian texts. > > > > If you will recall, a very similar event actually did happen in 1949, > > when the founding fathers of the Indian republic adopted, enacted, and > > gave to ourselves - the sovereign people of India - our constitution. > > The preamble reads, > > > > "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India > > into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure > > to all its citizens: > > JUSTICE, social, economic and political; > > LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; > > EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among them all > > FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and > > integrity of the Nation. > > IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, > > do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION." > > > > In an absolute sense, the values of justice, liberty, and equality > > have an intuitive appeal to all humans everywhere. However, the > > formidable authority of our constitution comes from the crushed but > > proud people who paid a very high price for our right to live as > > equals and as dignified humans in India. We must take their word for > > what India is – they must have known and dreamt quite a bit about it. > > > > India's greatest generation definitely realised that divisivism, > > self-doubt, and other demons from our past would haunt the republic > > they formed. Which is why the constitution is important. It helps us > > protect our country from ourselves. > > > > The Constitution. Indian Nationalism. How we will defend India. > > > > Those who doubt the moral power of our freedom-generation, our > > constitutional ethos, and Indian nationalism need only look at > > Pakistan, which renounced all these in its attempts not to be seen as > > Indian. Pakistan's leaders, in trying to defend their divisve national > > philosophy, forced the most horrible bankruptcy on its people. > > > > Rather than using Indian nationalism and the constitution to tackle > > our communal issues, I am appalled at the general trend to merely > > lament that India is on its way to being declared an non-secular state > > - the hundreds of millions of Indians fully intent on preventing this > > notwithstanding. > > > > Pakistan-style Islamism, Ummah-isation of Hinduism, alienation of > > Indian Muslims > > > > There are three major trends in India today that are relevant to > > our topic. > > > > Firstly, India has very serious conflicts of interest with Pakistan. > > We have gone to war with that country several times. Its society has > > issues with radicalisation and a general religious orthodoxy. Its > > regimes have relentlessly attacked India's internal fault-lines over > > the past few decades in the name of Islam. Tens of thousands of Indian > > soldiers have died defending our country against them. It is > > distinctly un-Indian and anti-Indian. > > > > Secondly, Hinduism is, for the lack of a better word, Ummah-ising, and > > this at times takes horrifyingly militant forms. I, given my personal > > biases, am all for Hindu solidarity and abolishing pseudo-secularism. > > However, an argument for Hindu-solidarity should not be allowed to > > take the form of an un-Indian religionalism that goes against the very > > spirit of India. > > > > Thirdly, Indian Muslims feel alienated from their own country. In > > India, Pakistan is synonymous with Islam. Unfortunately, Islam is also > > weakly synonymous with Pakistan. This has significantly undermined > > Indian Muslims' political standing in India vis-a-vis their fellow > > citizens. > > > > The havoc all this has wreaked on our society must not be ignored. > > India was home to one of humanity's greatest Islamic cultures for well > > over 1000 years. It is not, by any means, a dead part of our > > culture - > > nearly 160 million Indians are Muslims, several national icons are > > Muslims, mosques and Islamic architecture litter the country, and > > Muslim holidays are shared by all. And yet, to a lot of Indians, Islam > > doesn't feel Indian, but Pakistani. Despite their respective religious > > majorities, it is odd that Buddhism doesn't feel Sri Lankan, or > > Hinduism itself, Nepali. > > > > The partition of India and secular India's deprivation of its Islamic > > authenticity > > > > Has anyone thought what has actually happened here? Why is it that in > > India, an ancient civilisational land which has a unique Islamic > > culture just like Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, Islam is seen as somehow > > foreign? That is not because of Islam's being inconsistent with India > > – 1000 years and more of history and our combined freedom struggle > > should have proven this by now. > > > > During partition, founders of Pakistan expropriated the subcontinent's > > Islamic identity for defining their nation, Pakistan. Pakistan's > > struggle to keep its ideology alive has robbed us of our Islamic > > authenticity. India's secular nature not-withstanding, the ardour with > > which Pakistan argued itsideology and pushed its exclusivist national > > philosophy within the larger Islamic community ensured that it gained > > some traction in the Indian society. Pakistan's military conflicts > > with "Hindu" India only amplified this. > > > > It only takes a few of decades of intense activity for a new Zeitgeist > > to take root in a society. Consider denazification of Germany, China's > > turn into capitalism, and India's own economic liberalisation. 30 > > years – that is all it takes for a young generation to grow up shaped > > by a pervasive ideology. > > > > Though quite smaller than India, Pakistan is by no means a tiny > > nation. It is the world's 6th most populous country, one of its major > > economies, and a prominent player during the cold war. One cannot find > > fault with it - Pakistan had to defend its national philosophy. It has > > expended a tremendous amount of national effort over the last 60 years > > in achieving a strong association between subcontinental Islam and > > itself. > > > > They have succeeded splendidly. Islam in the subcontinent today is > > seen as prominently Pakistani and India's secular fabric warped by > > that perception. Pakistan is an Islamic nation - this somehow gives > > them a stronger claim on everything Islamic in the subcontinent. The > > world simply does not recognise India's Islamic authenticity, and > > neither do many Indians within. India continues to be associated > > primarily with Hinduism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, but not Islam. > > > > Does religious brotherhood entirely negate the organic bonds a human > > has to his ancestral land and its history, and to his fellow humans > > who share the same bonds as him? I don't really know. What I do know > > is that this is not the principle on which the Indian republic was > > founded, and its definitely not an Indian value. Religious supremacism > > and breaking up of Indian people are un-Indian philosophies. It goes > > against the very spirit of our freedom struggle, nationalism, and our > > constitution. > > > > Indians must remember that new Pakistani generations do not even have > > the same right to speak for India's Muslims that their earlier > > generations might have had. Indian democracy has proven this > > unnecessary anyway. > > > > Indo-Pak culture-drift and attempts at an unnatural bonhomie > > > > There is a delusion among the political class and Indian people that > > our shared past can be used to achieve friendly relations between > > India and Pakistan. My view is that in doing so, we are only > > reinforcing the internal Islam-Pakistan hyphenation. > > > > When historical developments asunder a people, over a period of time > > the newly formed groups drift increasingly farther from one another. > > Once upon time, Myanmar and Sri Lanka were part of India, just like > > Pakistan and Bangladesh. Afghanistan was part of several Indian > > empires. Today, though at a national level we have very cordial > > relations, they are distinctly unfamiliar to us. > > > > Such a natural drift has definitely taken place between India and > > Pakistan. The strongest bond between us that keeps us in each others' > > national memories is not anything positive that we share, but the > > acrid legacy of partition. It's hard for me as an Indian, for > > instance, to imagine such an Islamism taking hold of Pakistan if it > > were under Akbar's rule. That is, if it were under genuinely > > Indian-style Islamic rule. > > > > I am not suggesting we should actively pursue enmity with Pakistan or > > vilify it. However, its being clumped together with Indian Muslims is > > simply not healthy for India. What has Pakistan's 'leadership' of > > subcontinental Muslims, its advocacy of religious supremacism within, > > and its enmity with India effectively accomplished? It has robbed > > India of its genuine Islamic authenticity in the world's eyes, and > > caused non-Muslim Indians to reject the culture of an un-Indian enemy. > > Pakistan has highlighted Indian Muslims' being Islamic and > =3E consistently de-emphasized their being Indian. > > > > Pursuing an unnatural bonhomie with Pakistan and stressing our > > similarities with them will only weaken our case for our differences, > > which are very real. To uphold our national interest, we must assert > > and amplify these differences. > > > > Replace Islam-Pakistan hyphenation with Islam-India hyphenation in the > > subcontinent > > > > I urge Indians to spearhead a change of perception of Islam in the > > subcontinent. Anything that prevents Indian Muslims' fully asserting > > their claim on India as Indian citizens is against the national > > interest. The strong association in India between subcontinental Islam > > and the present day un-Indian Pakistan must go. > > > > It is tempting to claim that all South Asian countries share Islamic > > civilization equally. It may be polite and civil to do so, and it may > > even have some historical merit, but it's a weak claim for our > > purposes. It doesn't have the necessary boldness and self-conviction > > to be effective. It also doesn't forcefully argue for India's Islamic > > authenticity. Our aim is to end Islam-Pakistan hyphenation for the > > welfare of a billion humans, not to be fair observers of history. We > > must hence push the strongest nationalistic claim possible: Islam in > > the subcontinent is Indian, and it always has been. > > > > Indian Islam never 'went' anywhere – it is alive and well amidst us. > > Our nationalism and constitution are guarantees that it will > > thrive if > > Pakistan would let go of it. When the world thinks of Hinduism in > > South Asia, it thinks of India. Sikhism, it thinks of India. Buddhism, > > India. When it thinks of Islam in South Asia, it must think of India. > > Everyone in the subcontinent will be better off. Everyone. > > > > The idea that Islam in the subcontinent is primarily Indian can gain > > currency only through a concerted nationalist campaign. No apologies > > should be made for such a movement. No one need be convinced of its > > proponents' "patriotism". The obvious worthiness of the cause, its > > truth, and its urgency are justifications enough. > > > > What ideas might such a campaign seek to make current? > > > > The countries in our region share an intertwined, messy history. We > > have a lot in common - languages, religions, culture, quirks - all > > part of our common and colourful heritage. > > > > However, if our historical and religious assets must be divided > > amongst us, then the worthiest inheritor of Islamic heritage in the > > subcontinent can only be India. Not Pakistan, not Bangladesh, not Sri > > Lanka, not Myanmar, not Nepal. India is the only nation that has been > > true to the historical spirit of Indian Islam – that of flourishing > > alongside other Indic faiths in India. > > > > Slay our demons ourselves > > > > Has it ever struck you that in our country, we have a vicious > > circularity of the following sort: we feel dismayed that the > > country/political class/leadership has done nothing for us; a form of > > apathy and resignation sets in; the country/political class/leadership > > continues to do nothing; we feel increasingly more dismayed. > > > > We are a democracy. We individually must act. Things won't happen > > if we don't. > > I urge Indians to assert India's secularism and nationalism to fight > > alienation of the Muslim community from Indian mainstream. This battle > > is the easier one to win – there are hundreds of millions of > > reasonable Indians, the Indian constitution, the liberal press, the > > legacy of our freedom-generation, and truth and justice on our side. > > > > I also urge Indians to fight Pakistani supremacy of subcontinental > > Islam from the outside. That is the root of all our problems. That is > > the key battle in India's war against communalism. We must learn to > > say, "Thanks, but no thanks. I understand what you mean, but this is > > not really true" to anyone who stresses commonalities of any sort in > > the subcontinent. > > > > Who will go first? > > > > Based on the concept of ownership of our destiny, what are the answers > > to these questions: > > > > "But how can non-Muslims claim that Islam in the subcontinent is > > Indian when it is represented by Pakistan and Indian Muslims > > themselves imply so?" > > > > "How can Indian Muslims make the Indo-centric claim when there is a > > genuine sense of their alienation in India and rest of Indian society > > accuses them of siding with Pakistan. We cannot move against Pakstani > > Muslims. There is a lot in common between us." > > > > I don't know! I am definitely going, in my own way. That I know. I > > will not ever treat any Indian by as automatically allied with a > > foreign, inimical power. I will continue making people aware of the > > need to end the subcontinental Islam-Pakistan association and replace > > it with Islam-India. > > > > We shall NOT vilify. We shall have faith. > > > > Indians should stop vilifying each other. Not because it would be > > saintly to do so, but because it only weakens our unity. > > > > Our nationalism and our constitution are solid stuff. Our greatest > > generation did their job well. If we must challenge our fellow > > Indians, invoke these instruments. Face with stead-fast stoicism any > > slurs, any accusations of you being an anti-Indian Muslim or a > > communal Hindutvawadi. Let the diatribe die down. Repeat your > > arguments invoking our nationalism, constitution, and your reasoning > > again. Do not ask anyone to 'prove' his or her patriotism. It's > > demeaning to do so. > > > > Satyameva Jayate – truth alone triumphs. If you are right, you will > > win. Have faith in our country and in every Indians' goodness and > > genuine attachment to their land. > > > > Augmenting India's ideological basis > > > > Earlier I mentioned that our work on Indian nationhood is not a frozen > > process, but a continuing one. We can and must correct any earlier > > mistakes that continue to torment India's communal harmony. > > > > If the greatest challenge the freedom-generation faced was ending the > > British rule and forming a stable republic, the greatest challenge > > before us is to take back leadership of subcontinental Islam from > > Pakistan. Our challenge is to do this without sacrificing India's > > secular nature. > > > > To tackle our new communal challenges in the 21st century, I propose > > the following: > > 1. Secularism will continue to remain the Indian union's lynch > > pin. It > > should not, however, require any particular religious group's giving > > up their right to assert religious solidarity. We should genuinely > > address any concerns about hypocrisy in the name of secularism. > > > > 2. India is a mature concept, and we should actively use it to tackle > > the challenges before us. Secularism is an integral part of our > > nationhood and a historically irreversible development. It follows > > that religionalism – wherever it is practised – is distinctly > > un-Indian. Within India, it is also anti-Indian in the sense that they > > weaken India and goes against its spirit. > > > > 3. The natural heir to Islamic civilisation in the subcontinent is > > India. Subcontinental Islam has always been an Indian phenomenon. > > Pakistan's oft-reinforced association with Indian Muslims must be > > destroyed. > > > > 4. India's brotherhood with its neighbours is dying. Soon there will > > be an Indian generation which doesn't have a single Indian born before > > partition. Every single human in the subcontinent would have been born > > in the countries as they existed after partition. The continuing > > attempts to maintain an unnatural bonhomie with India's hostile > > neighbours is not a tenable project - Pakistan has moved too far away > > from what was once India. > > > > Indian Muslims. India's Islam. > > > > A shockingly large amount of our national energy is wasted in > > countering the effects of Islam-Pakistan hyphenation in the > > subcontinent. > > > > The solution is simple. Reclaim the part of Indian identity that was > > robbed of us some 60 years back. If India is Hindu, then for similar > > reasons, it is also Buddhist, Sikh, Christian - and Islamic. Purported > > authority over sub-continental Islam by other entities in the > > subcontinent is an outrageous farce that must be ended right away. > > > > There is no obligation to do this meekly. India doesn't have > > merely a > > substantial claim or merely an equal claim. It simply has more right > > to subcontinental Islamic heritage than anyone else by an > > overwhelmingly large margin, period. We must use it for our national > > well-being. > > > > Who can assert subcontinental Islam's Indian nature boldly, loudly, > > without an iota of self-doubt or hesitation? Who needs this to be done > > most urgently? Who suffers from a deprivation of their right to belong > > to India the most? The Hindus? Sikhs? Buddhists? Christians? Jains? > > Clearly not. Who else? > > > > The Indian Muslims. The others are left distinctly poorer and their > > country's communal harmony stressed, but their Indian genuineness is > > unquestioned within India and the world over. There is not going > > to be > > an un-Indian leader-nation for India's Sikhs, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists > > and Christians in our neighbourhood any time soon. > > > > http://indianmuslims.in/indias-islam/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping_________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=220 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Post free auto ads on Yello Classifieds now! Try it now! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Post free auto ads on Yello Classifieds now! Try it now! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Mon Jan 21 13:28:53 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:58:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Message-ID: <737344.69780.qm@web90410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Your Menu Card created by Supreme teaches you to allow Terrorists blast Hindus.. Your Supreme actually Blasts people.... so we creators of Supreme should allow them, because it is the Supreme who is doing it... Supreme has made me restless and Supreme has made you calm... May that Supreme keep you so calm even when your relations are abused by the same Terrorists... May that Supreme keep you calm when you find your Christian Children breaking the temples and hunting for Hindus... For Supreme is doing that... You are such an Ignorant person, I was talking to !!!!!!!!! Please forgive me... for disturbing you... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:07:54 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Who am 'I' to teach anybody? The Supreme teaches everyone. The Supreme creates Adharmis and then kills them. The Supreme creates Dhryodhana and then creates Arjuna. The Supreme creates Chanchal, me and all others whom Chanchal hates or dislikes. If they are Adharmis, the Supreme will destroy them. But the Supreme makes Chanchal restless, and makes Chanchal spew venom on people who disagree with Chanchal or have a different view point. And Chanchal forgets that Chanchal is created by the Supreme and the people who disagree are also created by the Supreme and then challenges others into comparision of holy books (as if they are the menu cards of different restaurants) Do yo need words to describe MAYA? OM SHANTI KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:24:59 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net I am sorry... I cannot dare to say that I am Lord Krishna... But I must dare to say that Arjuna need to be created... Paritranay Sadhunam Vinasaycha Dushkritam... DharmaSansthapnarthaya Sambhavami Yuge Yuge... Even God has to kill the Adharmis (be that be then Ravana or Kansa).. be that be then the Terrorised Invaders... Gandhi philosophy has weakened this nation... This nation was protected by Prithvi Raj Chauhan, Rana Pratap, Chhatrapati Shivaji, and so many of them.... This nation was also loved by Bhagat Singh, Subhas Chandra Bose, ChandraShekhar Ajad, Veer Savarkar, etc... This nation do not belong to Gandhi alone.. This nation do not belong to Sonia who has given free hands to Christians to convert Hindus to Christianity (and stupid Hindus are fighting with me here about their own Dharma without knowing anything)... This nation do not belong to Congress who have given every right to Terrorist under Bukhari to force Islamic law in various states over Hindus (and stupid Hindus do not have the gut and sense to even protect and respect their own Dharma)... I dont want to talk to you further... You can sell your house and your people in hands of Christianity and Islam... I cannot... For me my dignity lies in holding my own self and my own self lies in being a Hindu - a Bharat wasi... Let me live with this and let me have people of this thought around me... For you, teach what you are teaching me to a Muslim... and you will know the truth... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 12:21:51 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Are baba, Who is this 'you' and who is this 'I' who am 'I' to differentiate between what is Dharma and What is Adharma, it is already differentiated. Don't be sorry... it is understandable that in this material world any scholar would get lost. Action is living Dharma and doing Karma. When a society forgets that, to remind them invaders come. And if the invaded do not realise why they are invaded get back to theuir Dharma and Karma, they will be dominated for thousands of years. History of the world is that. Are you claiming that you are lord Krishna and therefore talking of creating Arjuna....? I would say blasphemy! KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:37:00 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net After reading Bhagwad Geeta, if you are not able to differentiate between what is Dhrama and what is Adharma... What is Sattvika and what is Tamasika... I am sorry... Bhagwad Geeta is not a a book for those who have given up action... It is for those who knows what is duty (not religion for Dharma means duty in Hinduism and not Religion, unlike all other religion).... And now when Adharma is coming on top of Dharma, it is now time to create Arjuna, who can understand Geeta and perform action in protection of Dharma... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:48:27 AM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Dear Chanchal, Who is this 'You' that you mention. Am I not you...? are you not me...? who is the thinker...? Mantra is not for thinking it is for feeling... experiencing. May be you should read Sri Mad Bagavadgeeta again. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:22:05 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net You are a selfish person... Realizing Shanti only for you... The mantra is far deep than you can even think... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: reader-list at sarai.net; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:37:06 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. What I know can not be expressed in words. I feel peace within me when I Chant OM SHANTHI SHANTHI SHANTHI. It appears like you you understand what is OM and why there is Three Shanthi. But how come there is no sign of peace! I don't care if any other religion has such slogans in their religious books. It doesn't make any difference to my belief and faith in the Supreme. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:44:33 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com Do you understand also... what is OM and why is there Three Shanti... Do you know any other religion which has such slogans in their religious books... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:28:20 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Om Shanthi Shanti Shanti hi KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:53:35 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net How many bombs you have thrown.. Ask this to them... Not us... We are reacting.. They are acting... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:19:37 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society....!? We bomb them and they bomb us and we bomb them and they bomb us together we bomb us then who is left to bomb...? KC > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:33:09 +0500 > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > Hi, true, it for too long hindus have been tolerent leading to a sarcastic comment that they are cowards, may be Nehru was coward when India was divided for his greed,may be Krishna menon loved chinese vaginas more than indian ones, but now it is time that hindu understood the value of SAMA, Dana, BHEDHA are over, dandam dashagunam bhaveth. Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: chanchal malviya > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:24 am > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > To: Javed , reader-list at sarai.net > > > It is time for Hindus to rise now... > > And no dicussion or virtual communities can stop it... > > > > Swami Vivekanand said - India have enough of religion.. > > And it is time now to say this to Christian and Muslims who force > > conversions the same thing.. > > If Sanskrit is the mother of all languages, Hinduism is the mother > > of all Religions... (But two religions have in particular always > > learnt to abuse their mother(Hinduism) - Islam and Christianity)... > > It is time now to stop the nation from producing more Kashmirs... > > It is time now to stop the non-Independent Religious India... > > > > So go on my dear friends as much as you like to abuse Hindus.. > > It hardly matters now.. > > > > Ramayan is proving to be a reality, Mahabharat is a reality.. > > History will also change.. > > It is Hindus that have taught peace to the world.. but to do that > > again, the two attackers have to be checked now.. > > People are doing that.. And will do that.. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Javed > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 6:00:16 PM > > Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > India's Islam > > by Arun Nair > > > > Firstly, I must apologise if this article smacks of an impolite > > urgency and prescriptive-ness. I mean not to be arrogant, but as > > someone addressing you on a matter of deep concern to us all, I felt > > that there was little room for ceremonial apologies before every > > sentence. Also, as an Indian middle-class Hindu who grew up in the > > Babri-masjid 90s, it is easy for me to say some of the things I say > > here. > > > > Secondly, I address you, the reader, as an Indian citizen, not as a > > saintly Kabir or Gandhi preaching love for humanity. Our collective > > interests are being threatened by communal forces from within and > > without. WE MUST ACT. We must not merely lament about our respective > > versions of helplessnesses and others' faults. We are free today > > because India's greatest generation shook off the ghosts that > > bedevilled them, and took action to protect our interests. I implore > > you to continue that legacy. > > > > Thirdly, while I will go into what in my opinion are highly plausible > > theories of Indian nationhood and nationalism, my primary aim here is > > not to write any treatise on politics or sociology, but to protect our > > rights to belong equally to India – our common ancestral land – as > > Indians, and as free, dignified humans. > > > > Fourthly, my ideas will be presented largely based on first > > principles, also known as common-sense. > > > > My thesis is this: India must boldly assert its claim on Islamic > > civilisation in the subcontinent. That is the key to end our communal > > woes. > > > > This does not mean that India must become Islamic, or that Indian > > Muslims must be somehow Hinduised. The idea, instead, is to campaign > > relentlessly for India's Islamic civilisational authenticity. > > > > In the Indian psyche, Pakistan stands for Islam. Sadly for us and > > admittedly in a weaker form, Islam is also synonymous with Pakistan > > and everything Pakistani. This wouldn't have been so bad if Pakistan > > wasn't, well, un-Indian. We must use every tool at our disposal as a > > people to destroy the entrenched idea of Pakistani ownership of > > subcontinental Islam from within India. More importantly, this idea > > must be attacked from without it, because that is where it originates. > > > > Our chief weapon to eliminate Islam-Pakistan hyphenation from the > > subcontinent will be an authentic claim: the centre of Islamic > > civilisation in South Asia has always been undivided India, and after > > partition, India is its natural primary heir. The fact that a few > > million Muslims left India during partition to settle in our erstwhile > > outlying provinces doesn't change this. Neither does the fact that the > > Indian people chose a progressive, secular, democratic polity for > > their republic. > > > > In our minds and in the world's view, subcontinental Islam is under > > Pakistani occupation. The historical Indo-centric nature of > > subcontinental Islam should be used to throw off this psychological > > yoke. I urge Indians to rally together once again as our greatest > > generation did to protect our collective interests as the people of > > India. I urge friends of India all over the world to join us. Both in > > terms of geography and spirit, Islam in the subcontinent that > > coexisted and flourished alongside Indic cultures, has always been > > more Indian than Pakistani. If any single country represents > > subcontinental Islam as it historically was, it is India. Not > > Pakistan. > > > > India's Mughals. India's Qutub Minar, Gol Gumaz, and Taj Mahal. > > India's Kabir. India's Tipu Sultan, Shah Jahan, Akbar, and, why not, > > Aurangazeb. India's Urdu. India's Ghalib and Khusro. India's Delhi, > > Lucknow, Mysore, Hyderabad, Malabar, and Agra. > > > > Good history has to be deliberately written > > > > The people of India inherited thousands of years of history and > > associated baggage that we didn't really ask for. > > > > Keep in mind though that history is not a dead object - it is > > unfurling even as you read this. We may not be able to change what > > happened in India 200 years ago. But 200 years from now when people > > look back, they will see the Indian history that our generation wrote. > > It becomes then our duty, both as Indians and as sensible humans, to > > write it well. > > > > It is a great privilege to deliberately be able to write a part of > > something grand like the history of India. The first generation of > > Indians who did a coordinated job of writing our history was the one > > that won us our independence – our "freedom-generation". They could > > have attempted to write their Indian chapter any way they wanted to. > > We could have had a dark, China-style communism, for instance. But, > > given the Indian context, the freedom-generation chose the most > > egalitarian, elegant, and humanist theme they could come up with: a > > secular, liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, that takes its > > strength from its inherent pluralism and its inheritance of one of > > mankind's greatest civilisations. > > > > The freedom-generation's legacy for us is the deliberate and > > intelligent manner in which they forged an Indian national identity. > > Thanks to their efforts, our nationality is a solid concept. An Indian > > from Karnataka has a robust nationalistic bond with Indians say from > > Punjab, Gujarat, Assam, or Delhi. Regardless of what languages we > > speak, we all recognise Marathi, Tamil, Bengali and Telugu as Indian > > languages – ancestral assets that all Indians collectively own. > > > > It is a mistake, however, to think that the nation-building task they > > began is complete. Indian nationalism is not an idea frozen in time, > > but an evolving one. We, the successors of India's freedom-generation, > > must exercise our prerogative to define its finer contours and bring > > in new ideas to enrich it. Furthermore, we have an obligation to both > > our founding fathers and India's posterity to do this while being true > > to our quintessential Indian-ness, the just, egalitarian nature of our > > country as embodied in our constitution. > > > > Given that India's situation is not as pressing as it once was, new > > nationalist leaders – giants of the stature of Mahatma Gandhi, Khan > > Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Subhash Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh, Jawaharlal > > Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad or Vallabhai Patel – may be difficult to > > emerge. There is no need to though. We succeeded them, and we must > > take this task upon ourselves. The freedom-generation watches over us > > in the form of our fraternity as Indians which they moulded at a great > > cost, and our constitution. > > > > Indian Nationalism - the idea of Indian brotherhood > > > > Amidst all this noisy consternation of Taslima Nasrin, Babri-masjid, > > BJP-Congress etc., its easy to lose sight of the really big pictures. > > Consider, for instance, this question: what really is the essence of > > Indian nationalism? Why do we all feel so closely tied to India > > and to > > each other? > > > > My answer is that, to put it simply, without the land we call India, > > Indians either have no identity, or very anaemic identities. All > > Indians share this same curious relation to India. > > When we are born to the same human mother, we are brothers. Our > > constitution formed by our freedom-generation explicitly asserts > > fraternity among the Indian people. Fraternity – brotherhood. In what > > sense are we brothers? > > > > Indians are brothers in the sense that the motherland that birthed my > > identity, also birthed yours. India is our ancestral land, and we > > should be proud of everything associated with it. Everything in India, > > its religions, its good and its bad, its languages, its glories and > > struggles, its rivers, its emperors, its heroes and villains, > > everything – is intricately weaved into our consciousnesses of who we > > are, where we come from, what our place in this world is, and how > > other humans see us. Without that identity, we are crippled. > > > > Ours is no ordinary brotherhood. Indian people didn't come into being > > merely a few centuries ago. We are an ancient civilisation, and what > > we have is a civlisational brotherhood – a bond arising from all of > > our belonging to the civilisation that unfolded in the same land, > > India. That brotherhood was formally declared through the constitution > > in 1949, but it existed much before that. Before our greatest > > generation gave it a concrete wording in the 20th century, it was well > > moulded in the crucible that is our land, in the fire of the previous > > several dozen, if not more, centuries. > > > > Every country of the world has stories that define their national > > essences. What is the most essential feature of Indian > > nationalism? It > > is our Indian identity – our being tied to India, and our > > civilisational brotherhood to each other in being bonded so. All > > Indians, regardless of their religion or language, has this bond with > > India and with each other. > > Indians must pause for a while and think why our anthem's going over > > our landmarks is so emotive. Or why Hindu-Muslim-Sikh-Christian > > insignia are powerful. Or why merely thinking of our history, or our > > Kerala, Karnataka, Maharashtra, UP, Punjab and Bengal moves all of us > > equally. > > > > It's because they remind us of our organic ties to India, and the > > brotherhood that we have with each other. This natural bond given to > > us by our glorious and at times bloody history is important. If we > > don't uphold this bond with the ferocity that our greatest generation > > did, if we don't use it to protect our common interests, our country > > will remain weak. > > > > Our country's nature > > > > What is the nature of our country? What does it mean for something > > to be Indian? > > For one, if all of us Indians could get together today and declare in > > one voice that India stands for certain values, then that would be an > > authoritative statement. India is what Indians say it is. If, say, the > > people of the then-Indian civilisation – Hindus, Muslims, Christians, > > Buddhists, Sikhs, and Jains – had made such a statement 400 years ago > > and preserved its spirit through centuries, that would have probably > > have been one of the greatest Indian texts. > > > > If you will recall, a very similar event actually did happen in 1949, > > when the founding fathers of the Indian republic adopted, enacted, and > > gave to ourselves - the sovereign people of India - our constitution. > > The preamble reads, > > > > "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India > > into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure > > to all its citizens: > > JUSTICE, social, economic and political; > > LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; > > EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among them all > > FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and > > integrity of the Nation. > > IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, > > do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION." > > > > In an absolute sense, the values of justice, liberty, and equality > > have an intuitive appeal to all humans everywhere. However, the > > formidable authority of our constitution comes from the crushed but > > proud people who paid a very high price for our right to live as > > equals and as dignified humans in India. We must take their word for > > what India is – they must have known and dreamt quite a bit about it. > > > > India's greatest generation definitely realised that divisivism, > > self-doubt, and other demons from our past would haunt the republic > > they formed. Which is why the constitution is important. It helps us > > protect our country from ourselves. > > > > The Constitution. Indian Nationalism. How we will defend India. > > > > Those who doubt the moral power of our freedom-generation, our > > constitutional ethos, and Indian nationalism need only look at > > Pakistan, which renounced all these in its attempts not to be seen as > > Indian. Pakistan's leaders, in trying to defend their divisve national > > philosophy, forced the most horrible bankruptcy on its people. > > > > Rather than using Indian nationalism and the constitution to tackle > > our communal issues, I am appalled at the general trend to merely > > lament that India is on its way to being declared an non-secular state > > - the hundreds of millions of Indians fully intent on preventing this > > notwithstanding. > > > > Pakistan-style Islamism, Ummah-isation of Hinduism, alienation of > > Indian Muslims > > > > There are three major trends in India today that are relevant to > > our topic. > > > > Firstly, India has very serious conflicts of interest with Pakistan. > > We have gone to war with that country several times. Its society has > > issues with radicalisation and a general religious orthodoxy. Its > > regimes have relentlessly attacked India's internal fault-lines over > > the past few decades in the name of Islam. Tens of thousands of Indian > > soldiers have died defending our country against them. It is > > distinctly un-Indian and anti-Indian. > > > > Secondly, Hinduism is, for the lack of a better word, Ummah-ising, and > > this at times takes horrifyingly militant forms. I, given my personal > > biases, am all for Hindu solidarity and abolishing pseudo-secularism. > > However, an argument for Hindu-solidarity should not be allowed to > > take the form of an un-Indian religionalism that goes against the very > > spirit of India. > > > > Thirdly, Indian Muslims feel alienated from their own country. In > > India, Pakistan is synonymous with Islam. Unfortunately, Islam is also > > weakly synonymous with Pakistan. This has significantly undermined > > Indian Muslims' political standing in India vis-a-vis their fellow > > citizens. > > > > The havoc all this has wreaked on our society must not be ignored. > > India was home to one of humanity's greatest Islamic cultures for well > > over 1000 years. It is not, by any means, a dead part of our > > culture - > > nearly 160 million Indians are Muslims, several national icons are > > Muslims, mosques and Islamic architecture litter the country, and > > Muslim holidays are shared by all. And yet, to a lot of Indians, Islam > > doesn't feel Indian, but Pakistani. Despite their respective religious > > majorities, it is odd that Buddhism doesn't feel Sri Lankan, or > > Hinduism itself, Nepali. > > > > The partition of India and secular India's deprivation of its Islamic > > authenticity > > > > Has anyone thought what has actually happened here? Why is it that in > > India, an ancient civilisational land which has a unique Islamic > > culture just like Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, Islam is seen as somehow > > foreign? That is not because of Islam's being inconsistent with India > > – 1000 years and more of history and our combined freedom struggle > > should have proven this by now. > > > > During partition, founders of Pakistan expropriated the subcontinent's > > Islamic identity for defining their nation, Pakistan. Pakistan's > > struggle to keep its ideology alive has robbed us of our Islamic > > authenticity. India's secular nature not-withstanding, the ardour with > > which Pakistan argued itsideology and pushed its exclusivist national > > philosophy within the larger Islamic community ensured that it gained > > some traction in the Indian society. Pakistan's military conflicts > > with "Hindu" India only amplified this. > > > > It only takes a few of decades of intense activity for a new Zeitgeist > > to take root in a society. Consider denazification of Germany, China's > > turn into capitalism, and India's own economic liberalisation. 30 > > years – that is all it takes for a young generation to grow up shaped > > by a pervasive ideology. > > > > Though quite smaller than India, Pakistan is by no means a tiny > > nation. It is the world's 6th most populous country, one of its major > > economies, and a prominent player during the cold war. One cannot find > > fault with it - Pakistan had to defend its national philosophy. It has > > expended a tremendous amount of national effort over the last 60 years > > in achieving a strong association between subcontinental Islam and > > itself. > > > > They have succeeded splendidly. Islam in the subcontinent today is > > seen as prominently Pakistani and India's secular fabric warped by > > that perception. Pakistan is an Islamic nation - this somehow gives > > them a stronger claim on everything Islamic in the subcontinent. The > > world simply does not recognise India's Islamic authenticity, and > > neither do many Indians within. India continues to be associated > > primarily with Hinduism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, but not Islam. > > > > Does religious brotherhood entirely negate the organic bonds a human > > has to his ancestral land and its history, and to his fellow humans > > who share the same bonds as him? I don't really know. What I do know > > is that this is not the principle on which the Indian republic was > > founded, and its definitely not an Indian value. Religious supremacism > > and breaking up of Indian people are un-Indian philosophies. It goes > > against the very spirit of our freedom struggle, nationalism, and our > > constitution. > > > > Indians must remember that new Pakistani generations do not even have > > the same right to speak for India's Muslims that their earlier > > generations might have had. Indian democracy has proven this > > unnecessary anyway. > > > > Indo-Pak culture-drift and attempts at an unnatural bonhomie > > > > There is a delusion among the political class and Indian people that > > our shared past can be used to achieve friendly relations between > > India and Pakistan. My view is that in doing so, we are only > > reinforcing the internal Islam-Pakistan hyphenation. > > > > When historical developments asunder a people, over a period of time > > the newly formed groups drift increasingly farther from one another. > > Once upon time, Myanmar and Sri Lanka were part of India, just like > > Pakistan and Bangladesh. Afghanistan was part of several Indian > > empires. Today, though at a national level we have very cordial > > relations, they are distinctly unfamiliar to us. > > > > Such a natural drift has definitely taken place between India and > > Pakistan. The strongest bond between us that keeps us in each others' > > national memories is not anything positive that we share, but the > > acrid legacy of partition. It's hard for me as an Indian, for > > instance, to imagine such an Islamism taking hold of Pakistan if it > > were under Akbar's rule. That is, if it were under genuinely > > Indian-style Islamic rule. > > > > I am not suggesting we should actively pursue enmity with Pakistan or > > vilify it. However, its being clumped together with Indian Muslims is > > simply not healthy for India. What has Pakistan's 'leadership' of > > subcontinental Muslims, its advocacy of religious supremacism within, > > and its enmity with India effectively accomplished? It has robbed > > India of its genuine Islamic authenticity in the world's eyes, and > > caused non-Muslim Indians to reject the culture of an un-Indian enemy. > > Pakistan has highlighted Indian Muslims' being Islamic and > =3E consistently de-emphasized their being Indian. > > > > Pursuing an unnatural bonhomie with Pakistan and stressing our > > similarities with them will only weaken our case for our differences, > > which are very real. To uphold our national interest, we must assert > > and amplify these differences. > > > > Replace Islam-Pakistan hyphenation with Islam-India hyphenation in the > > subcontinent > > > > I urge Indians to spearhead a change of perception of Islam in the > > subcontinent. Anything that prevents Indian Muslims' fully asserting > > their claim on India as Indian citizens is against the national > > interest. The strong association in India between subcontinental Islam > > and the present day un-Indian Pakistan must go. > > > > It is tempting to claim that all South Asian countries share Islamic > > civilization equally. It may be polite and civil to do so, and it may > > even have some historical merit, but it's a weak claim for our > > purposes. It doesn't have the necessary boldness and self-conviction > > to be effective. It also doesn't forcefully argue for India's Islamic > > authenticity. Our aim is to end Islam-Pakistan hyphenation for the > > welfare of a billion humans, not to be fair observers of history. We > > must hence push the strongest nationalistic claim possible: Islam in > > the subcontinent is Indian, and it always has been. > > > > Indian Islam never 'went' anywhere – it is alive and well amidst us. > > Our nationalism and constitution are guarantees that it will > > thrive if > > Pakistan would let go of it. When the world thinks of Hinduism in > > South Asia, it thinks of India. Sikhism, it thinks of India. Buddhism, > > India. When it thinks of Islam in South Asia, it must think of India. > > Everyone in the subcontinent will be better off. Everyone. > > > > The idea that Islam in the subcontinent is primarily Indian can gain > > currency only through a concerted nationalist campaign. No apologies > > should be made for such a movement. No one need be convinced of its > > proponents' "patriotism". The obvious worthiness of the cause, its > > truth, and its urgency are justifications enough. > > > > What ideas might such a campaign seek to make current? > > > > The countries in our region share an intertwined, messy history. We > > have a lot in common - languages, religions, culture, quirks - all > > part of our common and colourful heritage. > > > > However, if our historical and religious assets must be divided > > amongst us, then the worthiest inheritor of Islamic heritage in the > > subcontinent can only be India. Not Pakistan, not Bangladesh, not Sri > > Lanka, not Myanmar, not Nepal. India is the only nation that has been > > true to the historical spirit of Indian Islam – that of flourishing > > alongside other Indic faiths in India. > > > > Slay our demons ourselves > > > > Has it ever struck you that in our country, we have a vicious > > circularity of the following sort: we feel dismayed that the > > country/political class/leadership has done nothing for us; a form of > > apathy and resignation sets in; the country/political class/leadership > > continues to do nothing; we feel increasingly more dismayed. > > > > We are a democracy. We individually must act. Things won't happen > > if we don't. > > I urge Indians to assert India's secularism and nationalism to fight > > alienation of the Muslim community from Indian mainstream. This battle > > is the easier one to win – there are hundreds of millions of > > reasonable Indians, the Indian constitution, the liberal press, the > > legacy of our freedom-generation, and truth and justice on our side. > > > > I also urge Indians to fight Pakistani supremacy of subcontinental > > Islam from the outside. That is the root of all our problems. That is > > the key battle in India's war against communalism. We must learn to > > say, "Thanks, but no thanks. I understand what you mean, but this is > > not really true" to anyone who stresses commonalities of any sort in > > the subcontinent. > > > > Who will go first? > > > > Based on the concept of ownership of our destiny, what are the answers > > to these questions: > > > > "But how can non-Muslims claim that Islam in the subcontinent is > > Indian when it is represented by Pakistan and Indian Muslims > > themselves imply so?" > > > > "How can Indian Muslims make the Indo-centric claim when there is a > > genuine sense of their alienation in India and rest of Indian society > > accuses them of siding with Pakistan. We cannot move against Pakstani > > Muslims. There is a lot in common between us." > > > > I don't know! I am definitely going, in my own way. That I know. I > > will not ever treat any Indian by as automatically allied with a > > foreign, inimical power. I will continue making people aware of the > > need to end the subcontinental Islam-Pakistan association and replace > > it with Islam-India. > > > > We shall NOT vilify. We shall have faith. > > > > Indians should stop vilifying each other. Not because it would be > > saintly to do so, but because it only weakens our unity. > > > > Our nationalism and our constitution are solid stuff. Our greatest > > generation did their job well. If we must challenge our fellow > > Indians, invoke these instruments. Face with stead-fast stoicism any > > slurs, any accusations of you being an anti-Indian Muslim or a > > communal Hindutvawadi. Let the diatribe die down. Repeat your > > arguments invoking our nationalism, constitution, and your reasoning > > again. Do not ask anyone to 'prove' his or her patriotism. It's > > demeaning to do so. > > > > Satyameva Jayate – truth alone triumphs. If you are right, you will > > win. Have faith in our country and in every Indians' goodness and > > genuine attachment to their land. > > > > Augmenting India's ideological basis > > > > Earlier I mentioned that our work on Indian nationhood is not a frozen > > process, but a continuing one. We can and must correct any earlier > > mistakes that continue to torment India's communal harmony. > > > > If the greatest challenge the freedom-generation faced was ending the > > British rule and forming a stable republic, the greatest challenge > > before us is to take back leadership of subcontinental Islam from > > Pakistan. Our challenge is to do this without sacrificing India's > > secular nature. > > > > To tackle our new communal challenges in the 21st century, I propose > > the following: > > 1. Secularism will continue to remain the Indian union's lynch > > pin. It > > should not, however, require any particular religious group's giving > > up their right to assert religious solidarity. We should genuinely > > address any concerns about hypocrisy in the name of secularism. > > > > 2. India is a mature concept, and we should actively use it to tackle > > the challenges before us. Secularism is an integral part of our > > nationhood and a historically irreversible development. It follows > > that religionalism – wherever it is practised – is distinctly > > un-Indian. Within India, it is also anti-Indian in the sense that they > > weaken India and goes against its spirit. > > > > 3. The natural heir to Islamic civilisation in the subcontinent is > > India. Subcontinental Islam has always been an Indian phenomenon. > > Pakistan's oft-reinforced association with Indian Muslims must be > > destroyed. > > > > 4. India's brotherhood with its neighbours is dying. Soon there will > > be an Indian generation which doesn't have a single Indian born before > > partition. Every single human in the subcontinent would have been born > > in the countries as they existed after partition. The continuing > > attempts to maintain an unnatural bonhomie with India's hostile > > neighbours is not a tenable project - Pakistan has moved too far away > > from what was once India. > > > > Indian Muslims. India's Islam. > > > > A shockingly large amount of our national energy is wasted in > > countering the effects of Islam-Pakistan hyphenation in the > > subcontinent. > > > > The solution is simple. Reclaim the part of Indian identity that was > > robbed of us some 60 years back. If India is Hindu, then for similar > > reasons, it is also Buddhist, Sikh, Christian - and Islamic. Purported > > authority over sub-continental Islam by other entities in the > > subcontinent is an outrageous farce that must be ended right away. > > > > There is no obligation to do this meekly. India doesn't have > > merely a > > substantial claim or merely an equal claim. It simply has more right > > to subcontinental Islamic heritage than anyone else by an > > overwhelmingly large margin, period. We must use it for our national > > well-being. > > > > Who can assert subcontinental Islam's Indian nature boldly, loudly, > > without an iota of self-doubt or hesitation? Who needs this to be done > > most urgently? Who suffers from a deprivation of their right to belong > > to India the most? The Hindus? Sikhs? Buddhists? Christians? Jains? > > Clearly not. Who else? > > > > The Indian Muslims. The others are left distinctly poorer and their > > country's communal harmony stressed, but their Indian genuineness is > > unquestioned within India and the world over. There is not going > > to be > > an un-Indian leader-nation for India's Sikhs, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists > > and Christians in our neighbourhood any time soon. > > > > http://indianmuslims.in/indias-islam/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping_________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=220 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Post free auto ads on Yello Classifieds now! Try it now! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Post free auto ads on Yello Classifieds now! Try it now! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Mon Jan 21 14:41:13 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:11:13 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] what non-Muslims say about Quran, Islam In-Reply-To: References: <416896.64213.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: GOOD THOUGHTS INDEED REFLECTS THE WISDOM AND INTELLECT OF THIS INDIVIDUAL.. Basic truth of the matter is both Cristian and islam are abrahamic faiths, which were revealed to some individuals, and Gettha can be seen and read as pure humanitarian outlook or as religious text depending on the approach of the reader. As Dr. Radhakrishnan in his preface to the commentary on Shrimadbhagawathgita observes. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Javed Date: Monday, January 21, 2008 12:55 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] what non-Muslims say about Quran, Islam To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear Chanchal ji > I would love to take up this challenge - I don't mind having a debate > with you. But there are a few very basic things first. > > (1) I am not attacking Bhagwat Gita, I have no problem with it, I > haven't read it, I don't own a copy right now, so I can't argue > for or > against it any way, nor do I want to condemn it in any way. As a > matter of fact, I respect it, just as I respect all other books of > wisdom. Quite simply, I have nothing to say against Bhagwat Gita or > any other Holy book. So you have already won on that account. > > (2) How can I trust you in a discussion when you keep rejecting my > facts by saying "Gandhi never read Quran", and "forget what people > say" - how can we forget/ignore things which have been said before > about Quran. Are you saying that all those philosophers (which I > quoted) have not read what you have read? Or are you claiming to know > more about Islam than what all those people have known? Although many > of them are Christians but that doesn't mean that they would be more > sympathatic to Islam. The hostilities between Muslims and Christians > have been equally terrible. > > (3) I would like to know exactly which translation of the Quran are > you quoting from. Just like you do not approve my references, I may > have a problems with your sources. So, let us start with that. Please > let me know which translation of the Quran are you reading. > > (4) Please remember, the most important point which I will keep > referring to is: The Quran, or any other historical/holy book for that > matter, was written/compiled at a certain stage in history, at a > certain geographical location, for a certain cultural context. We have > to read/interprete each word of that book in the context of those > times and that location. If we start applying anything from that text > to the current situation and intepret today's reality from the point > of view of that old text, we are going to run into trouble - our > interpretations and evaluations will always be problematic. And I can > already foresee our running into that quagmire. Some Muslims may say > that Quran applies to all times and all humans equally, but a > sociologist/historian may see Quran to be a historical document (my > apologies if I'm hurting anyone's sentiments). And I would like to > treat it (at least in this discussion) at a historical document. > > (5) I am not in a mood to fight - the way you are writing so > aggressively. I would love to participate in a discussion if we tone > down a bit. > > If you think that my above points make sense, then let us go > ahead. I > am ready for the discussion. I am really looking forward to a > scholarly, mature, non-partisan, and parliamentary discussion with > you, in good spirits. > > Javed > > > > On 1/20/08, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > > Mahatma Gandhi never read Quran.. He only read Bhagwad Geeta.. > and hence > > what he said was his perception about Quran as a religion... > > And forget about what people said... > > > > Have courage to discuss it personally... > > I will have Bhagwad Geeta (the most accepted book of Hindus)... > and you > > quote from that book.. > > I will also have Quran (the one translated by your writers)... > and I quote > > from that book... > > > > Every page of Quran teaches hatred... and many page teaches > killings....> > > I invite you for an open discussion... here on this forum... > two books > > (Don't divert to other books of Hindus, by quoting Dr. Naiks > findings, that > > has already been taken care of and I can provide link where it > has been > > answered)... Let us focus just two books... one yours and one > mine...> > > I invite... things would be clear.. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Javed > > To: chanchal malviya > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:43:46 PM > > Subject: what non-Muslims say about Quran, Islam > > > > Dear Chanchal ji > > If you have read Quran and found only war and terror in it, why > do so > > many non-Muslim scholars and philosophers (including Mahatma Gandhi > > and K. S. Ramakrishna Rao) have said so many great things about it. > > Please read these quotes carefully. Some of these people are > actually> saying just the reverse of what you claim. > > > > ===== > > > > Thomas Carlyle in 'Heroes and Hero Worship and the Heroic in > History,' 1840: > > > > "The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round > > this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only." "A silent > > great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle > > the world, the world's Maker had ordered so." > > > > > > A. S. Tritton in 'Islam,' 1951: > > > > The picture of the Muslim soldier advancing with a sword in one hand > > and the Qur'an in the other is quite false. > > > > > > De Lacy O'Leary in 'Islam at the Crossroads,' London, 1923: > > > > History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical > Muslims> sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point > of sword > > upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths > > that historians have ever repeated. > > > > > > Gibbon in 'The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' 1823: > > > > The good sense of Muhammad despised the pomp of royalty. The Apostle > > of God submitted to the menial offices of the family; he kindled the > > fire; swept the floor; milked the ewes; and mended with his own > hands> his shoes and garments. Disdaining the penance and merit of > a hermit, > > he observed without effort of vanity the abstemious diet of an Arab. > > > > > > Edward Gibbon and Simon Oakley in 'History of the Saracen > Empire,' London, > > 1870: > > > > "The greatest success of Mohammad's life was effected by sheer > moral force." > > "It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that > > deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he > > engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved after the revolutions of > > twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish > proselytes> of the Koran....The Mahometans have uniformly > withstood the temptation > > of reducing the object of their faith and devotion to a level > with the > > senses and imagination of man. 'I believe in One God and Mahomet the > > Apostle of God' is the simple and invariable profession of > Islam. The > > intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any > visible> idol; the honors of the prophet have never transgressed > the measure of > > human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the > gratitude of > > his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion." > > > > > > Reverend Bosworth Smith in 'Muhammad and Muhammadanism,' London, > 1874:> > > "Head of the State as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in > > one; but he was Pope without the Pope's pretensions, and Caesar > > without the legions of Caesar, without a standing army, without a > > bodyguard, without a police force, without a fixed revenue. If > ever a > > man ruled by a right divine, it was Muhammad, for he had all the > > powers without their supports. He cared not for the dressings of > > power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his > > public life." > > "In Mohammadanism every thing is different here. Instead of the > > shadowy and the mysterious, we have history....We know of the > external> history of Muhammad.... while for his internal history > after his > > mission had been proclaimed, we have a book absolutely unique in its > > origin, in its preservation....on the Substantial authority of which > > no one has ever been able to cast a serious doubt." > > > > > > Edward Montet, 'La Propagande Chretienne et ses Adversaries > > Musulmans,' Paris 1890. (Also in T.W. Arnold in 'The Preaching of > > Islam,' London 1913.): > > > > "Islam is a religion that is essentially rationalistic in the widest > > sense of this term considered etymologically and historically....the > > teachings of the Prophet, the Qur'an has invariably kept its > place as > > the fundamental starting point, and the dogma of unity of God has > > always been proclaimed therein with a grandeur a majesty, an > > invariable purity and with a note of sure conviction, which it > is hard > > to find surpassed outside the pale of Islam....A creed so > precise, so > > stripped of all theological complexities and consequently so > > accessible to the ordinary understanding might be expected to > possess> and does indeed possess a marvelous power of winning its > way into the > > consciences of men." > > > > > > Alphonse de LaMartaine in 'Historie de la Turquie,' Paris, 1854: > > > > "Never has a man set for himself, voluntarily or involuntarily, > a more > > sublime aim, since this aim was superhuman; to subvert superstitions > > which had been imposed between man and his Creator, to render > God unto > > man and man unto God; to restore the rational and sacred idea of > > divinity amidst the chaos of the material and disfigured gods of > > idolatry, then existing. Never has a man undertaken a work so far > > beyond human power with so feeble means, for he (Muhammad) had > in the > > conception as well as in the execution of such a great design, no > > other instrument than himself and no other aid except a handful > of men > > living in a corner of the desert. Finally, never has a man > > accomplished such a huge and lasting revolution in the world, > because> in less than two centuries after its appearance, Islam, > in faith and > > in arms, reigned over the whole of Arabia, and conquered, in God's > > name, Persia Khorasan, Transoxania, Western India, Syria, Egypt, > > Abyssinia, all the known continent of Northern Africa, numerous > > islands of the Mediterranean Sea, Spain, and part of Gaul. "If > > greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astonishing > results are > > the three criteria of a human genius, who could dare compare any > great> man in history with Muhammad? The most famous men created > arms, laws, > > and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than > > material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. > This man > > moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples, > dynasties, but > > millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more > > than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, > > the beliefs and the souls. > > > > "On the basis of a Book, every letter which has become law, he > created> a spiritual nationality which blend together peoples of > every tongue > > and race. He has left the indelible characteristic of this Muslim > > nationality the hatred of false gods and the passion for the One and > > Immaterial God. This avenging patriotism against the profanation of > > Heaven formed the virtue of the followers of Muhammad; the > conquest of > > one-third the earth to the dogma was his miracle; or rather it > was not > > the miracle of man but that of reason. > > > > "The idea of the unity of God, proclaimed amidst the exhaustion > of the > > fabulous theogonies, was in itself such a miracle that upon it's > > utterance from his lips it destroyed all the ancient temples of > idols> and set on fire one-third of the world. His life, his > meditations, his > > heroic revelings against the superstitions of his country, and his > > boldness in defying the furies of idolatry, his firmness in enduring > > them for fifteen years in Mecca, his acceptance of the role of > public> scorn and almost of being a victim of his fellow > countrymen... This > > dogma was twofold the unity of God and the immateriality of God: the > > former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the > > one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting > an idea > > with words. > > > > "Philosopher, Orator, Apostle, Legislator, Conqueror of Ideas, > > Restorer of Rational beliefs.... The founder of twenty terrestrial > > empires and of one spiritual empire that is Muhammad. As regards all > > standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, > > is there any man greater than he?" > > > > > > Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in 'Young India,'1924: > > > > I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an > > undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became > > more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place > > for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid > > simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous > > regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and > followers,> his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust > in God and in > > his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before > > them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume > > (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for > me to > > read of that great life. > > > > > > Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936: > > > > "If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe > > within the next hundred years, it could be Islam." I have always > held> the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its > wonderful> vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me > to possess that > > assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can > > make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful > > man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be > called> the Savior of Humanity." > > > > "I believe that if a man like him were to assume the > dictatorship of > > the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way > > that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have > > prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be > acceptable to > > the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the > > Europe of today." > > > > > > Michael Hart in 'The 100, A Ranking of the Most Influential > Persons In > > History,' New York, 1978: > > > > My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most > influential> persons may surprise some readers and may be > questioned by others, but > > he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both > > the secular and religious level. ...It is probable that the relative > > influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined > > influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. ...It is > this> unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence > which I > > feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single > > figure in human history. > > > > > > Dr. WilliamDraper in 'History of Intellectual Development of > Europe':> > > Four years after the death of Justinian, A.D. 569, was born in > Mecca,> in Arabia, the man who, of all men, has exercised the greatest > > influence upon the human race... To be the religious head of many > > empires, to guide the daily life of one-third of the human race, may > > perhaps justify the title of a Messenger of God. > > > > > > Arthur Glyn Leonard in 'Islam, Her Moral and Spiritual Values': > > > > It was the genius of Muhammad, the spirit that he breathed into the > > Arabs through the soul of Islam that exalted them. That raised them > > out of the lethargy and low level of tribal stagnation up to the > high> watermark of national unity and empire. It was in the > sublimity of > > Muhammad's deism, the simplicity, the sobriety and purity it > > inculcated the fidelity of its founder to his own tenets, that acted > > on their moral and intellectual fiber with all the magnetism of true > > inspiration. > > > > > > Philip K. Hitti in 'History of the Arabs': > > > > Within a brief span of mortal life, Muhammad called forth of > > unpromising material, a nation, never welded before; in a > country that > > was hitherto but a geographical expression he established a religion > > which in vast areas suppressed Christianity and Judaism, and > laid the > > basis of an empire that was soon to embrace within its far flung > > boundaries the fairest provinces the then civilized world. > > > > > > Rodwell in the Preface to his translation of the Holy Qur'an: > > > > Mohammad's career is a wonderful instance of the force and life that > > resides in him who possesses an intense faith in God and in the > unseen> world. He will always be regarded as one of those who have > had that > > influence over the faith, morals and whole earthly life of their > > fellow men, which none but a really great man ever did, or can > > exercise; and whose efforts to propagate a great verity will > prosper.> > > > > W. Montgomery Watt in 'Muhammad at Mecca,' Oxford, 1953: > > > > His readiness to undergo persecution for his beliefs, the high moral > > character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as a > > leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement - all > argue his > > fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more > > problems that it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of > > history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.... > Thus, not > > merely must we credit Muhammad with essential honesty and > integrity of > > purpose, if we are to understand him at all; if we are to > correct the > > errors we have inherited from the past, we must not forget the > > conclusive proof is a much stricter requirement than a show of > > plausibility, and in a matter such as this only to be attained with > > difficulty. > > > > > > D. G. Hogarth in 'Arabia': > > > > Serious or trivial, his daily behavior has instituted a canon which > > millions observe this day with conscious memory. No one regarded by > > any section of the human race as Perfect Man has ever been > imitated so > > minutely. The conduct of the founder of Christianity has not > governed> the ordinary life of his followers. Moreover, no founder > of a religion > > has left on so solitary an eminence as the Muslim apostle. > > > > > > Washington Irving 'Mahomet and His Successors': > > > > He was sober and abstemious in his diet and a rigorous observer of > > fasts. He indulged in no magnificence of apparel, the > ostentation of a > > petty mind; neither was his simplicity in dress affected but a > result> of real disregard for distinction from so trivial a > source. In his > > private dealings he was just. He treated friends and strangers, the > > rich and poor, the powerful and weak, with equity, and was > beloved by > > the common people for the affability with which he received > them, and > > listened to their complaints. His military triumphs awakened no > pride> nor vain glory, as they would have done had they been > effected for > > selfish purposes. In the time of his greatest power he > maintained the > > same simplicity of manners and appearance as in the days of his > > adversity. So far from affecting a regal state, he was > displeased if, > > on entering a room, any unusual testimonials of respect were > shown to > > him. If he aimed at a universal dominion, it was the dominion of > > faith; as to the temporal rule which grew up in his hands, as he > used> it without ostentation, so he took no step to perpetuate it > in his > > family. > > > > > > James Michener in 'Islam: The Misunderstood Religion,' Reader's > > Digest, May 1955, pp. 68-70: > > > > "No other religion in history spread so rapidly as Islam. The > West has > > widely believed that this surge of religion was made possible by the > > sword. But no modern scholar accepts this idea, and the Qur'an is > > explicit in the support of the freedom of conscience." > > "Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of > > serving as the transmitter of God's word sensing his own inadequacy. > > But the Angel commanded 'Read'. So far as we know, Muhammad was > unable> to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired > words which > > would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one > > God"." > > > > "In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his > beloved son > > Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred and rumors of God 's personal > > condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have > > announced, 'An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to > > attribute such things to the death or birth of a human being'." > > > > "At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but > the man > > who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria > > with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: 'If there are > > any among you who worshiped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is > God you > > Worshiped, He lives for ever'." > > > > > > Lawrence E. Browne in 'The Prospects of Islam,' 1944: > > > > Incidentally these well-established facts dispose of the idea so > > widely fostered in Christian writings that the Muslims, wherever > they> went, forced people to accept Islam at the point of the sword. > > > > > > K. S. Ramakrishna Rao in 'Mohammed: The Prophet of Islam,' 1989 > > > > My problem to write this monograph is easier, because we are not > > generally fed now on that (distorted) kind of history and much time > > need not be spent on pointing out our misrepresentations of > Islam. The > > theory of Islam and sword, for instance, is not heard now in any > > quarter worth the name. The principle of Islam that "there is no > > compulsion in religion" is well known. > > > > Napolean Bonaparte as Quoted in Christian Cherfils, 'Bonaparte et > > Islam,' Pedone Ed., Paris, France, 1914, pp. 105, 125. > > Original References: "Correspondance de Napoléon Ier Tome V > pièce n° > > 4287 du 17/07/1799..." > > > > "Moses has revealed the existence of God to his nation. Jesus Christ > > to the Roman world, Muhammad to the old continent... "Arabia was > > idolatrous when, six centuries after Jesus, Muhammad introduced the > > worship of the God of Abraham, of Ishmael, of Moses, and Jesus. The > > Ariyans and some other sects had disturbed the tranquility of > the east > > by agitating the question of the nature of the Father, the son, and > > the Holy Ghost. Muhammad declared that there was none but one > God who > > had no father, no son and that the trinity imported the idea of > > idolatry... > > > > "I hope the time is not far off when I shall be able to unite > all the > > wise and educated men of all the countries and establish a uniform > > regime based on the principles of Qur'an which alone are true and > > which alone can lead men to happiness." > > > > > > Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936. > > > > "If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe > > within the next hundred years, it could be Islam." "I have > always held > > the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful > > vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess > that> assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence > which can > > make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the > > wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, > he must > > be called the Savior of Humanity." > > > > "I believe that if a man like him were to assume the > dictatorship of > > the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way > > that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have > > prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be > acceptable to > > the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the > > Europe of today." > > > > > > Bertrand Russel in 'History of Western Philosophy,' London, > 1948, p. 419. > > > > "Our use of phrase 'The Dark ages' to cover the period from 699 to > > 1,000 marks our undue concentration on Western Europe... > > "From India to Spain, the brilliant civilization of Islam > flourished.> What was lost to christendom at this time was not > lost to > > civilization, but quite the contrary... > > > > "To us it seems that West-European civilization is civilization, but > > this is a narrow view." > > > > H.G. Wells > > > > "The Islamic teachings have left great traditions for equitable and > > gentle dealings and behavior, and inspire people with nobility and > > tolerance. These are human teachings of the highest order and at the > > same time practicable. These teachings brought into existence a > > society in which hard-heartedness and collective oppression and > > injustice were the least as compared with all other societies > > preceding it....Islam is replete with gentleness, courtesy, and > > fraternity." > > > > > > Dr. William Draper in 'History of Intellectual Development of > Europe'> > > "During the period of the Caliphs the learned men of the Christians > > and the Jews were not only held in great esteem but were > appointed to > > posts of great responsibility, and were promoted to the high ranking > > job in the government....He (Caliph Haroon Rasheed) never considered > > to which country a learned person belonged nor his faith and belief, > > but only his excellence in the field of learning." > > > > > > Thomas Carlyle in 'Heroes, Hero Worship, and the Heroic in History,' > > Lecture 2, Friday, 8th May 1840. > > > > "As there is no danger of our becoming, any of us, Mahometans (i.e. > > Muslim), I mean to say all the good of him I justly can... "When > > Pococke inquired of Grotius, where the proof was of that story > of the > > pigeon, trained to pick peas from Mahomet's (Muhammad's) ear, > and pass > > for an angel dictating to him? Grotius answered that there was no > > proof!... > > > > "A poor, hard-toiling, ill-provided man; careless of what vulgar men > > toil for. Not a bad man, I should say; Something better in him than > > hunger of any sort, -- or these wild arab men, fighting and jostling > > three-and-twenty years at his hand, in close contact with him > always,> would not revered him so! They were wild men bursting > ever and anon > > into quarrel, into all kinds of fierce sincerity; without right > worth> and manhood, no man could have commanded them. They called > him prophet > > you say? Why he stood there face to face with them; bare, not > > enshrined in any mystry; visibly clouting his own cloak, > cobbling his > > own shoes; fighting, counselling, ordering in the midst of them: > they> must have seen what kind of man he was, let him be called > what you > > like! No emperor with his tiaras was obeyed as this man in a > cloak of > > his own clouting. During three-and-twenty years of rough actual > trial.> I find something of a veritable Hero necessary for that, > of itself... > > > > "These Arabs, the man Mahomet, and that one century, - is it not > as if > > a spark had fallen, one spark, on a world of what proves explosive > > powder, blazes heaven-high from Delhi to Granada! I said, the Great > > man was always as lightning out of Heaven; the rest of men > waited for > > him like fuel, and then they too would flame..." > > > > > > Phillip Hitti in 'Short History of the Arabs.' > > > > "During all the first part of the Middle Ages, no other people > made as > > important a contribution to human progress as did the Arabs, if we > > take this term to mean all those whose mother-tongue was Arabic, and > > not merely those living in the Arabian peninsula. For centuries, > > Arabic was the language of learning, culture and intellectual > progress> for the whole of the civilized world with the exception > of the Far > > East. From the IXth to the XIIth century there were more > > philosophical, medical, historical, religiuos, astronomical and > > geographical works written in Arabic than in any other human > tongue."> > > > > Carra de Vaux in 'The Philosophers of Islam,' Paris, 1921. > > > > "Finally how can one forget that at the same time the Mogul > Empire of > > India (1526-1857 C.E.) was giving the world the Taj Mahal (completed > > in 1648 C.E.) the architectural beauty of which has never been > > surpassed, and the 'Akbar Nameh' of Abul Fazl: "That extraordinary > > work full of life ideas and learning where every aspect of life is > > examined listed and classified, and where progress continually > dazzles> the eye, is a document of which Oriental civilization may > justly be > > proud. The men whose genius finds its expression in this book > were far > > in advance of their age in the practical art of government, and they > > were perhaps in advance of it in their speculations about religious > > philosophy. Those poets those philosophers knew how to deal with the > > world or matter. They observe, classify, calculate and > experiment. All > > the ideas that occur to them are tested against facts. They express > > them with eloquence but they also support them with > statistics."...the> principles of tolerance, justice and humanity > which prevailed during > > the long reign of Akbar." > > > > > > Marcel Clerget in 'La Turquie, Passe et Present,' Paris, 1938. > > > > "Many proofs of high cultural level of the Ottoman Empire during the > > reign of Suleiman the Magnificent are to be found in the development > > of science and law; in the flowering of literary works in Arabic, > > Persian and Turkish; in the contemporary monuments in Istanbul, > Bursa,> and Edirne; in the boom in luxury industries; in the > sumptuous life of > > the court and high dignitaries, and last but not least in its > > religious tolerance. All the various influences - notably Turkish, > > Byzantine and Italian mingle together and help to make this the most > > brilliant epoch of the Ottomans." > > > > > > Michael the Elder (Great) as Quoted in 'Michael the Elder, Chronique > > de Michael Syrien, Patriarche Jacobite d' Antioche,' J.B. Chabot, > > Editor, Vol. II, Paris, 1901. > > > > "This is why the God of vengeance, who alone is all-powerful, and > > changes the empire of mortals as He will, giving it to > whomsoever He > > will, and uplifting the humble beholding the wickedness of the > Romans> who throughout their dominions, cruelly plundered our > churches and our > > monasteries and condemned us without pity, brought from the > region of > > the south the sons of Ishmael, to deliver us through them from the > > hands of the Romans. And if in truth we have suffered some loss, > > because the Catholic churches, that had been taken away from us and > > given to the > > Chalcedonians, remained in their possession; for when the cities > > submitted to the Arabs, they assigned to each denomination the > > churches which they found it to be in possession of (and at that > time> the great churches of Emessa and that of Harran had been > taken away > > from us); nevertheless it was no slight advantage for us to be > > delivered from the cruelty of the Romans, their wickedness, their > > wrath and cruel zeal against us, and to find ourselves at people. > > (Michael the Elder, Jacobite Patriarch of Antioch wrote this > text in > > the latter part of the twelfth century, after five > > centuries of Muslim rule in that region. Click here for a relevant > > document sent to the monks of St. Catherine Monastery in Mt. Sinai, > > 628 C.E.) > > > > > > Sir John Bagot Glubb > > > > "Khalif (Caliph) Al-Ma'mun's period of rule (813 - 833 C.E.) may be > > considered the 'golden age' of science and learning. He had always > > been devoted to books and to learned pursuits. His brilliant > mind was > > interested in every form of intellectual activity. Not only > poetry but > > also philosophy, theology, astronomy, medicine and law all occupied > > his time." > > "By Mamun's time medical schools were extremely active in > Baghdad. The > > first free public hospital was opened in Baghdad during the > Caliphate> of Haroon-ar-Rashid. As the system developed, > physicians and surgeons > > were appointed who gave lectures to medical students and issued > > diplomas to those who were considered qualified to practice. The > first> hospital in Egypt was opened in 872 AD and thereafter > public hospitals > > sprang up all over the empire from Spain and the Maghrib to Persia." > > > > > > On the Holocaust of Baghdad (1258 C.E.) Perpetrated by Hulagu: > > "The city was systematically looted, destroyed and burnt. Eight > > hundred thousand persons are said to have been killed. The Khalif > > Mustasim was sewn up in a sack and trampled to death under the > feet of > > Mongol horses. > > > > "For five hundred years, Baghdad had been a city of palaces, > mosques,> libraries and colleges. Its universities and hospitals > were the most > > up-to-date in the world. Nothing now remained but heaps of > rubble and > > a stench of decaying human flesh." > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Mon Jan 21 14:50:23 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:20:23 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? In-Reply-To: <312048.18738.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <312048.18738.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi, who is dalit in the present context of democratic life ? My gut feeling is every one kept out of the good of democracy is a dalit, those pampered because of the organised vote banks on the basis of region, caste and faith are the beneficiaries of the democracy and all others who silently remain unorganised and suffer lack of good governance are dalits in democracy. Even minority which form en masse vote banks like christians are the power coterie in the nation along with the muslim goons as leaders foisted on them, but ordinary muslim kept out of school and out of reach of any development, both in material, intellectual and spiritual spheres are the dalits in the nation.Brahmin is the one who has learned and has wisdom to lead the society and he is not brahman because of the birth. All are dalits when deprived of good governance in the nation which is ruled with favours to castes and faiths. ----- Original Message ----- From: chanchal malviya Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:16 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? To: Krishna Chaithanya , reader-list Cc: Asit asitreds , "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" > Take all the Religious books of Hindus... and show to Dalit where > is the word Dalit... > Take all the Religious books of Hindus... and show to Dalit where > is the word 'Jati'... > Take all the Religious books of Hindus... and show where is Dahej... > Take all the Religious books of Hindus... and show where is the > theory of Burning a women when the husband is dead... > Show where in Hinduism is written that Brahmins are by birth > Brahmins and Shudra are by birth Shudra... > Arey, I challenge ... take all the Religious books of Hindus and > show me where is the word 'HINDU'... > > You do not know to respect your own faith... You do not know > anything about your own faith... You people have never ready your > own books... And you think, you are talking sense... > It is better you become Muslims... at least you will read Quran > for sure.. so what that it is a wrong book for existence of life... > It is better you becoem a Christian... at least you will read > Bible for sure... so what it is a wrong book for humanity... > > Who has created Dalits.. Is it Brahmins ? > Thousands of years have deprived India of money... The Land of > Gold is now called the Land of Old... G is removed so that all its > rich heritage is called Old... > > And Dalits or (Illiterates whoever they are).. are the primary > target in being taught the wrong things.. > > How many literate Dalit face the problem of Brahmin.. > How many temples have a system of finding whether a Dalit is > entering it (Politics has it though as reservation)... > > Actually, there is enough of Dalit politics also now.... If Dalit > is standing on same platform as Brahmins, let them first eliminate > the world Dalit... Why is Dalit interested in calling themselves > Dalit... > > India was a well Organized nation... It is never that two person > is equal... How can then Shudra be equal to Brahmin.. Indian > philosophy has always taught integrity... Because it is always > that two person live in relation to each other... and this is what > Varna arrangement used to do... You do not want to integrate... > You want equality but without balance... > > You don't want progress (because progress is possible only > integrity)... you want to rule on Brahmins... like Laloo and > Mulayam did in Bihar and UP... and the nation knows what has > happened to those states.. > > Come on man.. Tell that you are a Hindu.. tell it with pride... > If you do not know to respect yourself.. who will respect you... > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Krishna Chaithanya > To: reader-list > Cc: chanchal malviya ; Asit asitreds > ; "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:01:21 PM > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > There is enough abuse to Hindus... The tolerance shown has no > value... The only value Muslims hold is the false notion that God > has told them to kill... and they all worship the every-killing > and terrorised God... is what you wrote Chanchal > > That's what my Dalit friends say - There is enough abuse to > Dalits... The tolerance shown has no value... The only value Upper > casts hold is the false notion that God has created them superior. > and they all worship the ever discriminating God... > > will these kind of utterances lead to any solution? > > > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:09:34 -0800 > > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > To: asitredsalute at gmail.com; radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > > Muslims always paint picture of Kashmir that Muslims face > problem there.. > > I have asked many questions and no one answers... > > > > Who is creating problems in Pakistan (is it Hindus).. Dear > friends, Kashmir is no less then Pakistan.. > > Kashmir is more than 95% Muslim... The story ends here... > Whatever is happening in Kashmir is due to the Faith In Quran.. > that is all... > > > > As far as few years back history is concerned - It is Hindu > women (in thousands) they have been kept Captive and used in Harem > by Muslims... Senior Muslim officers of Army demand for those > women... and even the Muslims concept of Jannat is all about > enjoying women... Let me not quote now on this... > > > > Hindus have been massacred (no riots, no reaction - only action > and proaction by Muslims).. as Quran asks them to do this... Let > me not again quote here... though if challenged, I will quote > heedlessly...> > > There is enough abuse to Hindus... The tolerance shown has no > value... The only value Muslims hold is the false notion that God > has told them to kill... and they all worship the every-killing > and terrorised God... > > > > We are happy with our Idols, which are ideals in variations... > If one ideal is not agreeable, there is yet another... Diversity > is basis of existence.. and Hindus have practiced unity over > diverstions in true reality... > > > > This might be a scrap and old for some... For me, that is what > is the true nature of India... > > > > Let the Muslims now first talk about Terrorism.. let them first > demand Afzal before talking on Modi.. let them first accept India > as their motherland... > > Only then, the secularism would meet its purpose... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Asit asitreds > > To: "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" > > Cc: reader-list > > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 3:31:57 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > > lets not communalise the kashmir scene with talking about > pandits and > > muslims what is imporatnt is kasmiriyat ant the national > liberation of > > kashmir it is a occcupied territory of both pakistan and india > we make a big > > scene about pandits what about thousands of kasmiri youth killed > by the > > indian army the tortures the rapes and the natinal indignination > of kasmir > > its not a question of hindus or muslims but the colonisation of > kasmir by > > india and pakistan > > > > asit > > > > > > On 1/20/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > > > > > Same is the case when Theesta and the likes with "secular" > media claim > > > "thousands of " muslims bucthered in Gujarath, but who bothers > about truth > > > when one can get saudi riyals to defend the traitors of the > nation with > > > highly paid "criminal" lawyers. ? > > > In riot both hindus and muslims loose their beloved, many > lives are lost, > > > but this has origin in creating the Pakistan and then not > encouraging the > > > indian muslims to go the land and nation they created for > faith, after > > > promising to live in India like brothers to their society. ? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Wali Arifi > > > Date: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:58 pm > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > To: reader-list > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many > > > > lessons. One > > > > being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate figures when > > > > it comes to > > > > human loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the loss. In > > > > fact accuracy > > > > adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. In > essence> > > multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to > take refuge in > > > > propagandaand cloth the truth with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mr Durrani in his post has said: "….for killing of more than > 3000> > > Kashmiripandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this > > > > community." > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What is > Mr Durrani > > > > trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of > killings?> > > Is he > > > > helping the community by exaggerating the figure? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri > > > > pandits were > > > > killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has to be understood that multiplying figures is dangerously > > > > counterproductive for those who call themselves as the > champions and > > > > custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget about the > > > > use of > > > > words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing and > so on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kashmir's history will be written by those who have dreamed > of a 'just > > > > Kashmir'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or > trying> > > to create > > > > it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into what > it has > > > > actuallybeen in all practice... **Majoritarianism. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Wali > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with> > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > list > > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > > List archive: > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________> Be a better friend, newshound, and > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > > List archive: > > > > Fly HYD-BLR for Rs.499 Log on to MakeMyTrip! Check it out! > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 14:05:42 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:05:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits protest against Amnesty International Message-ID: <6353c690801180035u5928feabxfe24b1edf01f5595@mail.gmail.com> Kashmiri Pandits protest against Amnesty International *New Delhi* *A worldwide initiative of the Kashmiri Pandit youth "Roots In Kashmir" protested against the international human rights group Amnesty International on the occasion of 60th anniversary of Universal Declaration of Human Rights on Sunday.* *The group accused Amnesty of being biased in their human rights reports in the last two decades on the issue of Kashmir and Kashmiri Pandits.* *"It has just failed to come to our rescue; Amnesty has failed to rise to the occasion wherein it could have played a greater role in raising the issues connected with the Kashmiri Pandit exodus," said a group member.* ** *Read detailed story, pictures and more at - http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/* ** *Thanks* *Aditya Raj Kaul* *New Delhi* From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Thu Jan 17 16:32:58 2008 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (artNET) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 12:02:58 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_New_show_release?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_=5Fart_=26_blog--=3Eblogart=3F?= Message-ID: <20080117120258.CC18B44A.B3CA3177@192.168.0.3> JavaMuseum - Forum for Internet Technology in Contemporary Art http://www.javamuseum.org released recently a new showcase, entitled: "a+b=ba? [art+blog=blogart?] http://www.javamuseum.org/2007/a_and_b/ This show setup online in form of a "blog", as well, is curated by Wilfried Agricola de Cologne featuring art related blogs by following artists ---> Randy Adams aka runran (Canada), Tauvydas Bajarkevicius (Lithuania), Raheema Begum (India), Hans Bernhard (Austria), JR Carpenter (Canada), Anthony Carriere (USA), Dylan Davies (USA), Ryan Gallagher (USA), Fabian Giles (Mexico), Ellie Harrison (UK), Gita Hashemi (Canada), Jeremy Hight (USA), Juan Patino (Argentina), Alexander Jancijevic (Canada), Richard Jochum (USA), Keith Deverell, Seth Keen, David Wolf (Australia), Kyon (Germany), Yvonne Martinsson (Sweden), Vytautas Michellevicius (Lithuania), Alex Perl (USA), Karla Schuch Brunet (Brazil), Robert Sloon; (USA), Andres Torres (Chile), Michael Szpakowski (UK), Matthew Williamson; (USA), Salvatore Iaconesi (Italy) Read more in the curator's statement on http://www.javamuseum.org/2007/a_and_b/?page_id=2 The showcase - "a+b=ba? [art+blog=blogart?] is also a featured part of NewMediaFest2007 - http://2007.newmediafest.org http://www.newmediafest.org/blog/ ------------------------------------------------ JavaMuseum, founded in 2000 as a virtual museum realized in its "1st phase" between 2001 and 2005 18 showcases of netart in a global context including more than 350 artists and 1000 netart works. In 2006, JavaMuseum initiated --> JIP - JavaMuseum Interview Project including more than 75 interviews with professionals in new media art. By being re-launched on 1 November 2007, JavaMuseum started its "2nd phase" JavaMuseum - Forum for Internet Technology in Contemporary Art http://www.javamuseum.org and JIP - JavaMuseum Interview Project http.//jip.javamuseum.org are corporate parts of [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne http://www.nmartproject.net - the experimental platform for art and new media from Cologne! ------------------------------------------------ Released by netEX - networked experience http://netex.nmartproject.net - the free service platform of [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne http://www.nmartproject.net _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From turbulence at turbulence.org Fri Jan 18 19:20:03 2008 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:50:03 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Turbulence Spotlight: "Tulsita" by the Wa-KOW! Collective Message-ID: <004201c859d9$19f48650$4ddd92f0$@org> Turbulence Spotlight: "Tulsita" by the Wa-KOW! Collective http://turbulence.org/spotlight/tulsita Needs Flash plugin The Wa-KOW! Collective was founded on the idea that the distinctions between artistic media are problematic and productive rather than essential. Their primary goal is to find ways to blur those boundaries. The group--made up of poets, musicians, and photographers--works in and around the borders between text, sound, and image, exploring the relations between the three media and the nature of each type of media. Their artistic process evolved through organic collaboration. They visited specific sites in Tulsa and collected raw materials through writing, audio recording, and photography. The group then altered, edited, and arranged these materials, meanwhile incorporating samples from songs, films, texts and images related to Tulsa. The result of this collaboration is "Tulsita," an online flash-based environment that explores the cultural, ethical, and aesthetic experiences they have had living in Tulsa, Oklahoma. BIOGRAPHIES NATHAN HALVERSON works with found, sampled and original audio using various methods and processes to produce new sounds. His work combines elements of film, literature and popular culture which he uses to investigate the boundaries that divide and connect various media, their reception and our perception of them. A CD of his work, Nurse Shark, was released in September 2007 on the Peapod label. G. MATTHEW JENKINS teaches poetry and writing at The University of Tulsa. His writing explores the visual form of language and the page as a unit of measure. He has worked with several visual artists, including painter Sheila Giolitti. Their collaborations appeared at the Old Dominion University Literary Festival and at the Hampton University Museum. Flash has become his latest poetic medium. DAVID GOLDSTEIN teaches creative writing and Renaissance literature at York University. He is the author of the poetry chapbook Been Raw Diction (Dusie), and his poetry has appeared or is forthcoming in numerous journals, including The Paris Review, Jubilat, Typo, Pinstripe Fedora, Alice Blue Review, and Epoch. MINDY STRICKE is a photographer, artist and entrepreneur whose photographs have been exhibited throughout the US and Canada, most recently at the Safe-T Gallery in Brooklyn, NY. Her portraits and other work have been featured in national and international publications including the New York Times, Time, Time Out New York, Newsweek, PDNedu and Voce. In 2008 her work will be seen in Click! Photography Changes Everything, an exhibit curated by the Smithsonian Photography Initiative. For more Turbulence Spotlights, visit http://turbulence.org/spotlight Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Mon Jan 21 15:18:16 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:48:16 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] are these nationalists In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30801210014w4361d41biaad0e7ff96b4e1f2@mail.gmail.com> References: <121203.36808.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <9c06aab30801210014w4361d41biaad0e7ff96b4e1f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, every human for better opportunities do migrate for greener pastures and for better life, but none other than the islamic followers prove to be more fanatic to faith , that is why you will find the names of the likes Kafeel, Sabeel and Haneef and now latest is two more in spain detained for being subversive with terror acts. ! You will find a patel or a singh or a south indian any where in palnet earth, jokes are about a keralite who sells chai in moon, but none have taken their faith to public domain, but practise it for their well being, not foisting the faith on the society they have adopted to live in. ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् Date: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:47 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] are these nationalists To: chanchal malviya Cc: sarai > So chanchal, nobody ever migrated for better job opprtunities? > > On 1/19/08, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > > The numbers can be easily undestood... > > What was the percentage of Hindus in Kashmir around 50 years ago > (It was > > nearly 25%) - what is the population now (not even 5%)... The > missing> population is 20%... > > So, it comes to millions.... Of which around 80% have > migrated... The > > remaining 20% were massacred... The numbers you can calculate... > I am > > talking about the data published by operating bodies of > government and also > > by Census of British India Empire... and you can get this > through Internet > > also... Jammu still holds around 25% Hindus... > > > > Which state of Hindu have done this to Muslims? > > And which country or state of Muslims have done good to Hindus? > > > > Please do not mislead from reality... > > Please do not talk Gujarat and if you do, please first talk > about GODHRA... > > > > The very ground reality is - THERE IS NO TOLERANCE IN ISLAM.. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From tulunadu at hotmail.com Mon Jan 21 15:26:44 2008 From: tulunadu at hotmail.com (Krishna Chaithanya) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:26:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? In-Reply-To: References: <312048.18738.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: "All are dalits when deprived of good governance in the nation which is ruled with favours to castes and faiths." I agree with "All are dalits when deprived of good governance in the nation" But the second line is illusion. It only appears to be so. If you take closer look at the people favoured in any cast and faith by the rulers of the nation - you'll find that it is only a few with the RIGHT? connection. Brahmin is the one who has learned and has wisdom to lead the society is dead. There are only Asuras in the disguise of learned ones. What words you need to understand MAYA KC > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:20:23 +0500 > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > CC: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net; asitredsalute at gmail.com > > Hi, > > who is dalit in the present context of democratic life ? My gut feeling is every one kept out of the good of democracy is a dalit, those pampered because of the organised vote banks on the basis of region, caste and faith are the beneficiaries of the democracy and all others who silently remain unorganised and suffer lack of good governance are dalits in democracy. Even minority which form en masse vote banks like christians are the power coterie in the nation along with the muslim goons as leaders foisted on them, but ordinary muslim kept out of school and out of reach of any development, both in material, intellectual and spiritual spheres are the dalits in the nation.Brahmin is the one who has learned and has wisdom to lead the society and he is not brahman because of the birth. All are dalits when deprived of good governance in the nation which is ruled with favours to castes and faiths. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: chanchal malviya > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:16 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > To: Krishna Chaithanya , reader-list > Cc: Asit asitreds , "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" > > > Take all the Religious books of Hindus... and show to Dalit where > > is the word Dalit... > > Take all the Religious books of Hindus... and show to Dalit where > > is the word 'Jati'... > > Take all the Religious books of Hindus... and show where is Dahej... > > Take all the Religious books of Hindus... and show where is the > > theory of Burning a women when the husband is dead... > > Show where in Hinduism is written that Brahmins are by birth > > Brahmins and Shudra are by birth Shudra... > > Arey, I challenge ... take all the Religious books of Hindus and > > show me where is the word 'HINDU'... > > > > You do not know to respect your own faith... You do not know > > anything about your own faith... You people have never ready your > > own books... And you think, you are talking sense... > > It is better you become Muslims... at least you will read Quran > > for sure.. so what that it is a wrong book for existence of life... > > It is better you becoem a Christian... at least you will read > > Bible for sure... so what it is a wrong book for humanity... > > > > Who has created Dalits.. Is it Brahmins ? > > Thousands of years have deprived India of money... The Land of > > Gold is now called the Land of Old... G is removed so that all its > > rich heritage is called Old... > > > > And Dalits or (Illiterates whoever they are).. are the primary > > target in being taught the wrong things.. > > > > How many literate Dalit face the problem of Brahmin.. > > How many temples have a system of finding whether a Dalit is > > entering it (Politics has it though as reservation)... > > > > Actually, there is enough of Dalit politics also now.... If Dalit > > is standing on same platform as Brahmins, let them first eliminate > > the world Dalit... Why is Dalit interested in calling themselves > > Dalit... > > > > India was a well Organized nation... It is never that two person > > is equal... How can then Shudra be equal to Brahmin.. Indian > > philosophy has always taught integrity... Because it is always > > that two person live in relation to each other... and this is what > > Varna arrangement used to do... You do not want to integrate... > > You want equality but without balance... > > > > You don't want progress (because progress is possible only > > integrity)... you want to rule on Brahmins... like Laloo and > > Mulayam did in Bihar and UP... and the nation knows what has > > happened to those states.. > > > > Come on man.. Tell that you are a Hindu.. tell it with pride... > > If you do not know to respect yourself.. who will respect you... > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Krishna Chaithanya > > To: reader-list > > Cc: chanchal malviya ; Asit asitreds > > ; "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" > > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:01:21 PM > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > > There is enough abuse to Hindus... The tolerance shown has no > > value... The only value Muslims hold is the false notion that God > > has told them to kill... and they all worship the every-killing > > and terrorised God... is what you wrote Chanchal > > > > That's what my Dalit friends say - There is enough abuse to > > Dalits... The tolerance shown has no value... The only value Upper > > casts hold is the false notion that God has created them superior. > > and they all worship the ever discriminating God... > > > > will these kind of utterances lead to any solution? > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:09:34 -0800 > > > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > > To: asitredsalute at gmail.com; radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > > > > Muslims always paint picture of Kashmir that Muslims face > > problem there.. > > > I have asked many questions and no one answers... > > > > > > Who is creating problems in Pakistan (is it Hindus).. Dear > > friends, Kashmir is no less then Pakistan.. > > > Kashmir is more than 95% Muslim... The story ends here... > > Whatever is happening in Kashmir is due to the Faith In Quran.. > > that is all... > > > > > > As far as few years back history is concerned - It is Hindu > > women (in thousands) they have been kept Captive and used in Harem > > by Muslims... Senior Muslim officers of Army demand for those > > women... and even the Muslims concept of Jannat is all about > > enjoying women... Let me not quote now on this... > > > > > > Hindus have been massacred (no riots, no reaction - only action > > and proaction by Muslims).. as Quran asks them to do this... Let > > me not again quote here... though if challenged, I will quote > > heedlessly...> > > > There is enough abuse to Hindus... The tolerance shown has no > > value... The only value Muslims hold is the false notion that God > > has told them to kill... and they all worship the every-killing > > and terrorised God... > > > > > > We are happy with our Idols, which are ideals in variations... > > If one ideal is not agreeable, there is yet another... Diversity > > is basis of existence.. and Hindus have practiced unity over > > diverstions in true reality... > > > > > > This might be a scrap and old for some... For me, that is what > > is the true nature of India... > > > > > > Let the Muslims now first talk about Terrorism.. let them first > > demand Afzal before talking on Modi.. let them first accept India > > as their motherland... > > > Only then, the secularism would meet its purpose... > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Asit asitreds > > > To: "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" > > > Cc: reader-list > > > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 3:31:57 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > > > > lets not communalise the kashmir scene with talking about > > pandits and > > > muslims what is imporatnt is kasmiriyat ant the national > > liberation of > > > kashmir it is a occcupied territory of both pakistan and india > > we make a big > > > scene about pandits what about thousands of kasmiri youth killed > > by the > > > indian army the tortures the rapes and the natinal indignination > > of kasmir > > > its not a question of hindus or muslims but the colonisation of > > kasmir by > > > india and pakistan > > > > > > asit > > > > > > > > > On 1/20/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > > > > > > > Same is the case when Theesta and the likes with "secular" > > media claim > > > > "thousands of " muslims bucthered in Gujarath, but who bothers > > about truth > > > > when one can get saudi riyals to defend the traitors of the > > nation with > > > > highly paid "criminal" lawyers. ? > > > > In riot both hindus and muslims loose their beloved, many > > lives are lost, > > > > but this has origin in creating the Pakistan and then not > > encouraging the > > > > indian muslims to go the land and nation they created for > > faith, after > > > > promising to live in India like brothers to their society. ? > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Wali Arifi > > > > Date: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:58 pm > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > > To: reader-list > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many > > > > > lessons. One > > > > > being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate figures when > > > > > it comes to > > > > > human loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the loss. In > > > > > fact accuracy > > > > > adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. In > > essence> > > multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to > > take refuge in > > > > > propagandaand cloth the truth with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mr Durrani in his post has said: "….for killing of more than > > 3000> > > Kashmiripandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this > > > > > community." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What is > > Mr Durrani > > > > > trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of > > killings?> > > Is he > > > > > helping the community by exaggerating the figure? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri > > > > > pandits were > > > > > killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has to be understood that multiplying figures is dangerously > > > > > counterproductive for those who call themselves as the > > champions and > > > > > custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget about the > > > > > use of > > > > > words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing and > > so on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kashmir's history will be written by those who have dreamed > > of a 'just > > > > > Kashmir'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or > > trying> > > to create > > > > > it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into what > > it has > > > > > actuallybeen in all practice... **Majoritarianism. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Wali > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with> > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > > list > > > > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list> > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________> Be a better friend, newshound, and > > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > Fly HYD-BLR for Rs.499 Log on to MakeMyTrip! Check it out! > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs _________________________________________________________________ Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Mon Jan 21 17:08:24 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 03:38:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <601141.36501.qm@web45506.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> !!!adhimoolam please stay back... Vetrivel Adhimoolam wrote: I have gained lot from this list, but lately it has been increasingly hijacked by religious fundamentalists and henceforth I have decided to opt out. ----- Original Message ----- From: chanchal malviya To: Krishna Chaithanya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:50 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? I dont know how you understand 'Maya'... Your words let me feel that you think Maya is Illusion... You are very preliminary in its understanding man.... To brief in one line it goes as... Maya is Trigun (Sattva, Rajas and Tamas)... and it is these three attributes of nature that is eneveloping the creatures... and the holder of these attributes is termed as Maya.. English word Illusion cannot describe it... So, the duty is to attain the Sattva and even beyond... as Sattva is also not free from attainment of results.. recoprocal (action and reaction) are attribute of all three attribute of Maya and that is the rule of Maya... So please understand again the book... And be dutiful... you cannot say what is future.. but you must say what is right and wrong and what is your duty... You must do it.. And your first duty is to protect the nation from the hands of Abusers... Nation is your mother, and you may allow your mothers's abuse.. I cannot... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:54:30 AM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? Dear Chanchal, Lord krishna has preached so many things. He also wanted the world to understand what MAYA is all about. If a Hindu scholar who has digested thousands of holy books and still doesn't understand the meaning of MAYA. What can poor Krishna do...!? KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:24:35 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; pawan.durani at gmail.com; asitredsalute at gmail.com CC: reader-list at sarai.net You are absolutely correct now Mr. Krishna.. Kashmir was never a Hindu region... It was only before Mughal invasion.. And I don't understand... Do you know what Lord Krishna has preached in Geeta... What he himself did... You don't understand the depth of your own name.. Give me chance and I will let you know (If you are not a dummy Hindu here)... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: Pawan Durani ; Asit asitreds Cc: reader-list Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 11:55:35 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? "It is a historical fact that Kashmir has been intolerant towards hindus since last almost 1000 years and there have been more than 8 major exodus ofKashmiri pandits ". Does that mean that Kashmir was never a Hindu Country...!? What are you saying Pawan? KC > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:43:38 +0530 > From: pawan.durani at gmail.com > To: asitredsalute at gmail.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > Dear Mr Asit , > > I just wanted to clarify that the word Kashmiriat was used very cleaverly > by > Kashmiri Muslim leaders to hide the atrocities on Kashmiri Hindus. > > It is a historical fact that Kashmir has been intolerant towards hindus > since last almost 1000 years and there have been more than 8 major exodus > of > Kashmiri pandits . > > Regards > > Pawan Durani > > > On 1/20/08, Asit asitreds wrote: > > > > lets not communalise the kashmir scene with talking about pandits and > > muslims what is imporatnt is kasmiriyat ant the national liberation of > > kashmir it is a occcupied territory of both pakistan and india we make a > > big > > scene about pandits what about thousands of kasmiri youth killed by the > > indian army the tortures the rapes and the natinal indignination of > > kasmir > > its not a question of hindus or muslims but the colonisation of kasmir > > by > > india and pakistan > > > > asit > > > > > > On 1/20/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > > > > > Same is the case when Theesta and the likes with "secular" media claim > > > "thousands of " muslims bucthered in Gujarath, but who bothers about > > truth > > > when one can get saudi riyals to defend the traitors of the nation > > > with > > > highly paid "criminal" lawyers. ? > > > In riot both hindus and muslims loose their beloved, many lives are > > lost, > > > but this has origin in creating the Pakistan and then not encouraging > > the > > > indian muslims to go the land and nation they created for faith, after > > > promising to live in India like brothers to their society. ? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Wali Arifi > > > Date: Saturday, January 19, 2008 11:58 pm > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? > > > To: reader-list > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Last two decades of turbulence in Kashmir have taught us many > > > > lessons. One > > > > being that there is always a tendency to exaggerate figures when > > > > it comes to > > > > human loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But accuracy is always useful, and doesn't reduce the loss. In > > > > fact accuracy > > > > adds to the dignity of those who have suffered the loss. In essence > > > > multiplying figures is reflective of a tendency to take refuge in > > > > propagandaand cloth the truth with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mr Durrani in his post has said: "….for killing of more than 3000 > > > > Kashmiripandits. Not to talk of rape and arson against this > > > > community." > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder where this figure of "3000" has come from? What is Mr > > > > Durrani > > > > trying to prove or achieve by multiplying the number of killings? > > > > Is he > > > > helping the community by exaggerating the figure? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the Jammu and Kashmir government, 208 Kashmiri > > > > pandits were > > > > killed in the state from 1990 to 2006. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has to be understood that multiplying figures is dangerously > > > > counterproductive for those who call themselves as the champions and > > > > custodians of the interest of Kashmiri Pandits. Forget about the > > > > use of > > > > words like genocide, holocaust, pogrom, ethnic cleansing and so > > > > on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kashmir's history will be written by those who have dreamed of a > > > > 'just > > > > Kashmir'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let it be asked to Mr Durrani... Is he writing history, or trying > > > > to create > > > > it to suite a program that translates 'democracy' into what it has > > > > actuallybeen in all practice... **Majoritarianism. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Wali > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > list > > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Fly HYD-BLR for Rs.499 Log on to MakeMyTrip! Check it out! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. From anoopkheri at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 17:36:47 2008 From: anoopkheri at gmail.com (anoop kumar) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 04:06:47 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] what non-Muslims say about Quran, Islam Message-ID: Dear Javed bhai I am quite new to this reader-list but have been silently observing the debates. I dont think you need to be apologetic about you being not read Bhagawat Gita. I think it will be quite interesting if you can go through what Dr. Ambedkar wrote about Gita. More importantly please don't succumb to this humanitarian, liberal postures and clamors of educated caste-hindus. It is completely hog-wash- an invention by caste-hindus to counter colonial influences and to fight their own inferiority complexes Dalits have been the first victims of this rhetorics. Most of the middle-class/caste-hindus are going through an interesting phase where buoyed by their very moderate relative successes in globalised economy they are prone to inventing history trying to erase their past. They are also very terrorized lot as their position in Indian society is continuously being challenged. So they are in search of 'enemies' to consolidate their losing base. If u have observed they have problems with every body in this country be it Dalit, tribals, muslims, christians .. every body. Their problems stems from the fact that they dont want to share power, resources with anybody else in this country and all their 'politics' is driven by this very point. rather than poor caste-hindu, u will find educated one to be more of such kind more later. anoop From anoopkheri at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 17:47:30 2008 From: anoopkheri at gmail.com (anoop kumar) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 04:17:30 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] are these nationalists Message-ID: haahhaaha right ! caste-hindus dont take their religion wherever they go.... there is no need for them. they take their caste because this where their 'faith' belong to anoop From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Mon Jan 21 19:01:47 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:31:47 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] are these nationalists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HA HA HA, my friend those who go out of the nation do not carry caste with them, they carry the love for the mitti of the nation with them, at the first level of meeting another fellow indian in the other adopted land they do not worry about the caste but are happy to meet another from their nation.The feel of being from the same nation is much stronger, ask any one who work in gulf nations, he might have born in any caste, it is the vocation and the job that he does there gives him his rozi roti and power to help his family and members of his family to a better life. Or to that matter ask the professionals like doctors or engineers or to that matter drivers of a cab, he is happy to have you talk with him in his life when he sees you there in his adopted nation. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: anoop kumar Date: Monday, January 21, 2008 5:48 pm Subject: Re: are these nationalists To: reader-list at sarai.net Cc: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > haahhaaha > > right ! caste-hindus dont take their religion wherever they go.... > there is > no need for them. they take their caste because this where their > 'faith'belong to > > anoop > From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Mon Jan 21 19:17:02 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 05:47:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <942304.80495.qm@web45514.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I think Krishna Chaitanya is from ISCON. MAYA: jo dikhta hai vo actually nahi hai jo nahi hai vo dikhta hai Chanchal forget to say people are categorized UTTAM,MADHYAM AND ADHAM, based on the Trigunas (satva,rajas,tamo ). So your diet matters to control the Trigunas and hence making of the people. If you eat vegetables satva guna will develop (BP CONTROL) if you eat meat rajo guna will develop(all disorders) if you eat salt,chillies,onion , pepper,masala,asafatodea tamo guna will develop(HIGH BP) I am not just joking but you try with above food on alternate days and check the changes in your body (i am not asking vegetarians to eat non-veg and vice versa) Chanchal,radhika pl endorse that we are different individuals and don't know each other! otherwise list will still feel the same thing that we are one and the same!!! Krishna Chaithanya wrote: It all depends on how you want to feel people and religion MAYA was the one I was born into. I had no choice in this matter, like you didn't. I believe in my Dharma, not in shaving my head and dancing to the rythm of drums and hare hare. Hope this answer helps you to feel MAYA KC > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:01:29 +0500 > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > CC: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net > > Hi, > > which shanti and Maya are you talking about, - the one you had as girlfriend during your education or the one you have had after embracing the cult ? Even in hindu way of life, dharma is a means of earning dollars and having princely life with krishna conscious, hope you are not of that type. ? Such have only superficial grasp of Geetha as told by the Lord and get mired in maya of dollars. ! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: chanchal malviya > Date: Monday, January 21, 2008 10:54 am > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > To: Krishna Chaithanya , reader-list at sarai.net > > > You are a selfish person... Realizing Shanti only for you... > > The mantra is far deep than you can even think... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Krishna Chaithanya > > To: reader-list at sarai.net; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:37:06 PM > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > What I know can not be expressed in words. I feel peace within me > > when I Chant OM SHANTHI SHANTHI SHANTHI. > > > > It appears like you you understand what is OM and why there is > > Three Shanthi. But how come there is no sign of peace! > > > > I don't care if any other religion has such slogans in their > > religious books. > > It doesn't make any difference to my belief and faith in the Supreme. > > > > KC > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:44:33 -0800 > > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com > > > > > > Do you understand also... what is OM and why is there Three > > Shanti... > > Do you know any other religion which has such slogans in their > > religious books... > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Krishna Chaithanya > > To: chanchal malviya > > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:28:20 PM > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > > > Om Shanthi Shanti Shanti hi > > > > KC > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:53:35 -0800 > > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > How many bombs you have thrown.. > > Ask this to them... Not us... > > We are reacting.. They are acting... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Krishna Chaithanya > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:19:37 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > > > Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be > > on the society....!? > > > > We bomb them > > and they bomb us > > and we bomb them > > and they bomb us > > together we bomb us > > then who is left to bomb...? > > > > KC > > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:33:09 +0500 > > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > > > Hi, true, it for too long hindus have been tolerent leading to a > > sarcastic comment that they are cowards, may be Nehru was coward > > when India was divided for his greed,may be Krishna menon loved > > chinese vaginas more than indian ones, but now it is time that > > hindu understood the value of SAMA, Dana, BHEDHA are over, dandam > > dashagunam bhaveth. Violence can be stopped only with violent > > means.Then peace will be on the society. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: chanchal malviya > > > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:24 am > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > To: Javed , reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > It is time for Hindus to rise now... > > > > And no dicussion or virtual communities can stop it... > > > > > > > > Swami Vivekanand said - India have enough of religion.. > > > > And it is time now to say this to Christian and Muslims who > > force > > > > conversions the same thing.. > > > > If Sanskrit is the mother of all languages, Hinduism is the > > mother > > > > of all Religions... (But two religions have in particular > > always > > > > learnt to abuse their mother(Hinduism) - Islam and > > Christianity)...> > It is time now to stop the nation from > > producing more Kashmirs... > > > > It is time now to stop the non-Independent Religious India... > > > > > > > > So go on my dear friends as much as you like to abuse Hindus.. > > > > It hardly matters now.. > > > > > > > > Ramayan is proving to be a reality, Mahabharat is a reality.. > > > > History will also change.. > > > > It is Hindus that have taught peace to the world.. but to do > > that > > > > again, the two attackers have to be checked now.. > > > > People are doing that.. And will do that.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: Javed > > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 6:00:16 PM > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > > > > > India's Islam > > > > by Arun Nair > > > > > > > > Firstly, I must apologise if this article smacks of an impolite > > > > urgency and prescriptive-ness. I mean not to be arrogant, but as > > > > someone addressing you on a matter of deep concern to us all, > > I felt > > > > that there was little room for ceremonial apologies before every > > > > sentence. Also, as an Indian middle-class Hindu who grew up in the > > > > Babri-masjid 90s, it is easy for me to say some of the things > > I say > > > > here. > > > > > > > > Secondly, I address you, the reader, as an Indian citizen, not > > as a > > > > saintly Kabir or Gandhi preaching love for humanity. Our > > collective> > interests are being threatened by communal forces > > from within and > > > > without. WE MUST ACT. We must not merely lament about our > > respective> > versions of helplessnesses and others' faults. We > > are free today > > > > because India's greatest generation shook off the ghosts that > > > > bedevilled them, and took action to protect our interests. I > > implore> > you to continue that legacy. > > > > > > > > Thirdly, while I will go into what in my opinion are highly > > plausible> > theories of Indian nationhood and nationalism, my > > primary aim here is > > > > not to write any treatise on politics or sociology, but to > > protect our > > > > rights to belong equally to India – our common ancestral land > > – as > > > > Indians, and as free, dignified humans. > > > > > > > > Fourthly, my ideas will be presented largely based on first > > > > principles, also known as common-sense. > > > > > > > > My thesis is this: India must boldly assert its claim on Islamic > > > > civilisation in the subcontinent. That is the key to end our > > communal> > woes. > > > > > > > > This does not mean that India must become Islamic, or that Indian > > > > Muslims must be somehow Hinduised. The idea, instead, is to > > campaign> > relentlessly for India's Islamic civilisational > > authenticity.> > > > > > In the Indian psyche, Pakistan stands for Islam. Sadly for us and > > > > admittedly in a weaker form, Islam is also synonymous with > > Pakistan> > and everything Pakistani. This wouldn't have been so > > bad if Pakistan > > > > wasn't, well, un-Indian. We must use every tool at our > > disposal as a > > > > people to destroy the entrenched idea of Pakistani ownership of > > > > subcontinental Islam from within India. More importantly, this > > idea> > must be attacked from without it, because that is where it > > originates.> > > > > > Our chief weapon to eliminate Islam-Pakistan hyphenation from the > > > > subcontinent will be an authentic claim: the centre of Islamic > > > > civilisation in South Asia has always been undivided India, > > and after > > > > partition, India is its natural primary heir. The fact that a few > > > > million Muslims left India during partition to settle in our > > erstwhile> > outlying provinces doesn't change this. Neither does > > the fact that the > > > > Indian people chose a progressive, secular, democratic polity for > > > > their republic. > > > > > > > > In our minds and in the world's view, subcontinental Islam is > > under> > Pakistani occupation. The historical Indo-centric nature of > > > > subcontinental Islam should be used to throw off this > > psychological> > yoke. I urge Indians to rally together once again > > as our greatest > > > > generation did to protect our collective interests as the > > people of > > > > India. I urge friends of India all over the world to join us. > > Both in > > > > terms of geography and spirit, Islam in the subcontinent that > > > > coexisted and flourished alongside Indic cultures, has always been > > > > more Indian than Pakistani. If any single country represents > > > > subcontinental Islam as it historically was, it is India. Not > > > > Pakistan. > > > > > > > > India's Mughals. India's Qutub Minar, Gol Gumaz, and Taj Mahal. > > > > India's Kabir. India's Tipu Sultan, Shah Jahan, Akbar, and, > > why not, > > > > Aurangazeb. India's Urdu. India's Ghalib and Khusro. India's > > Delhi,> > Lucknow, Mysore, Hyderabad, Malabar, and Agra. > > > > > > > > Good history has to be deliberately written > > > > > > > > The people of India inherited thousands of years of history and > > > > associated baggage that we didn't really ask for. > > > > > > > > Keep in mind though that history is not a dead object - it is > > > > unfurling even as you read this. We may not be able to change what > > > > happened in India 200 years ago. But 200 years from now when > > people> > look back, they will see the Indian history that our > > generation wrote. > > > > It becomes then our duty, both as Indians and as sensible > > humans, to > > > > write it well. > > > > > > > > It is a great privilege to deliberately be able to write a > > part of > > > > something grand like the history of India. The first > > generation of > > > > Indians who did a coordinated job of writing our history was > > the one > > > > that won us our independence – our "freedom-generation". They > > could> > have attempted to write their Indian chapter any way they > > wanted to. > > > > We could have had a dark, China-style communism, for instance. > > But,> > given the Indian context, the freedom-generation chose the > > most> > egalitarian, elegant, and humanist theme they could come > > up with: a > > > > secular, liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, that > > takes its > > > > strength from its inherent pluralism and its inheritance of > > one of > > > > mankind's greatest civilisations. > > > > > > > > The freedom-generation's legacy for us is the deliberate and > > > > intelligent manner in which they forged an Indian national > > identity.> > Thanks to their efforts, our nationality is a solid > > concept. An Indian > > > > from Karnataka has a robust nationalistic bond with Indians > > say from > > > > Punjab, Gujarat, Assam, or Delhi. Regardless of what languages we > > > > speak, we all recognise Marathi, Tamil, Bengali and Telugu as > > Indian> > languages – ancestral assets that all Indians > > collectively own. > > > > > > > > It is a mistake, however, to think that the nation-building > > task they > > > > began is complete. Indian nationalism is not an idea frozen in > > time,> > but an evolving one. We, the successors of India's > > freedom-generation, > > > > must exercise our prerogative to define its finer contours and > > bring> > in new ideas to enrich it. Furthermore, we have an > > obligation to both > > > > our founding fathers and India's posterity to do this while > > being true > > > > to our quintessential Indian-ness, the just, egalitarian > > nature of our > > > > country as embodied in our constitution. > > > > > > > > Given that India's situation is not as pressing as it once > > was, new > > > > nationalist leaders – giants of the stature of Mahatma Gandhi, > > Khan> > Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Subhash Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh, > > Jawaharlal> > Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad or Vallabhai Patel – may be > > difficult to > > > > emerge. There is no need to though. We succeeded them, and we must > > > > take this task upon ourselves. The freedom-generation watches > > over us > > > > in the form of our fraternity as Indians which they moulded at > > a great > > > > cost, and our constitution. > > > > > > > > Indian Nationalism - the idea of Indian brotherhood > > > > > > > > Amidst all this noisy consternation of Taslima Nasrin, Babri- > > masjid,> > BJP-Congress etc., its easy to lose sight of the really > > big pictures. > > > > Consider, for instance, this question: what really is the > > essence of > > > > Indian nationalism? Why do we all feel so closely tied to > > India > > > > and to > > > > each other? > > > > > > > > My answer is that, to put it simply, without the land we call > > India,> > Indians either have no identity, or very anaemic > > identities. All > > > > Indians share this same curious relation to India. > > > > When we are born to the same human mother, we are brothers. Our > > > > constitution formed by our freedom-generation explicitly asserts > > > > fraternity among the Indian people. Fraternity – brotherhood. > > In what > > > > sense are we brothers? > > > > > > > > Indians are brothers in the sense that the motherland that > > birthed my > > > > identity, also birthed yours. India is our ancestral land, and we > > > > should be proud of everything associated with it. Everything > > in India, > > > > its religions, its good and its bad, its languages, its > > glories and > > > > struggles, its rivers, its emperors, its heroes and villains, > > > > everything – is intricately weaved into our consciousnesses of > > who we > > > > are, where we come from, what our place in this world is, and how > > > > other humans see us. Without that identity, we are crippled. > > > > > > > > Ours is no ordinary brotherhood. Indian people didn't come > > into being > > > > merely a few centuries ago. We are an ancient civilisation, > > and what > > > > we have is a civlisational brotherhood – a bond arising from > > all of > > > > our belonging to the civilisation that unfolded in the same land, > > > > India. That brotherhood was formally declared through the > > constitution> > in 1949, but it existed much before that. Before > > our greatest > > > > generation gave it a concrete wording in the 20th century, it > > was well > > > > moulded in the crucible that is our land, in the fire of the > > previous> > several dozen, if not more, centuries. > > > > > > > > Every country of the world has stories that define their national > > > > essences. What is the most essential feature of Indian > > > > nationalism? It > > > > is our Indian identity – our being tied to India, and our > > > > civilisational brotherhood to each other in being bonded so. All > > > > Indians, regardless of their religion or language, has this > > bond with > > > > India and with each other. > > > > Indians must pause for a while and think why our anthem's > > going over > > > > our landmarks is so emotive. Or why Hindu-Muslim-Sikh-Christian > > > > insignia are powerful. Or why merely thinking of our history, > > or our > > > > Kerala, Karnataka, Maharashtra, UP, Punjab and Bengal moves > > all of us > > > > equally. > > > > > > > > It's because they remind us of our organic ties to India, and the > > > > brotherhood that we have with each other. This natural bond > > given to > > > > us by our glorious and at times bloody history is important. > > If we > > > > don't uphold this bond with the ferocity that our greatest > > generation> > did, if we don't use it to protect our common > > interests, our country > > > > will remain weak. > > > > > > > > Our country's nature > > > > > > > > What is the nature of our country? What does it mean for > > something > > > > to be Indian? > > > > For one, if all of us Indians could get together today and > > declare in > > > > one voice that India stands for certain values, then that > > would be an > > > > authoritative statement. India is what Indians say it is. If, > > say, the > > > > people of the then-Indian civilisation – Hindus, Muslims, > > Christians,> > Buddhists, Sikhs, and Jains – had made such a > > statement 400 years ago > > > > and preserved its spirit through centuries, that would have > > probably> > have been one of the greatest Indian texts. > > > > > > > > If you will recall, a very similar event actually did happen > > in 1949, > > > > when the founding fathers of the Indian republic adopted, > > enacted, and > > > > gave to ourselves - the sovereign people of India - our > > constitution.> > The preamble reads, > > > > > > > > "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to > > constitute India > > > > into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to > > secure> > to all its citizens: > > > > JUSTICE, social, economic and political; > > > > LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; > > > > EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among > > them all > > > > FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the > > unity and > > > > integrity of the Nation. > > > > IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, > > 1949,> > do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS > > CONSTITUTION."> > > > > > In an absolute sense, the values of justice, liberty, and equality > > > > have an intuitive appeal to all humans everywhere. However, the > > > > formidable authority of our constitution comes from the > > crushed but > > > > proud people who paid a very high price for our right to live as > > > > equals and as dignified humans in India. We must take their > > word for > > > > what India is – they must have known and dreamt quite a bit > > about it. > > > > > > > > India's greatest generation definitely realised that divisivism, > > > > self-doubt, and other demons from our past would haunt the > > republic> > they formed. Which is why the constitution is > > important. It helps us > > > > protect our country from ourselves. > > > > > > > > The Constitution. Indian Nationalism. How we will defend India. > > > > > > > > Those who doubt the moral power of our freedom-generation, our > > > > constitutional ethos, and Indian nationalism need only look at > > > > Pakistan, which renounced all these in its attempts not to be > > seen as > > > > Indian. Pakistan's leaders, in trying to defend their divisve > > national> > philosophy, forced the most horrible bankruptcy on its > > people.> > > > > > Rather than using Indian nationalism and the constitution to > > tackle> > our communal issues, I am appalled at the general trend > > to merely > > > > lament that India is on its way to being declared an non- > > secular state > > > > - the hundreds of millions of Indians fully intent on > > preventing this > > > > notwithstanding. > > > > > > > > Pakistan-style Islamism, Ummah-isation of Hinduism, alienation > > of > > > > Indian Muslims > > > > > > > > There are three major trends in India today that are relevant > > to > > > > our topic. > > > > > > > > Firstly, India has very serious conflicts of interest with > > Pakistan.> > We have gone to war with that country several times. === message truncated === --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. From sampathlives at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 19:37:13 2008 From: sampathlives at gmail.com (Sampath G) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:37:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] HUMAN Message-ID: <9bf30d340801210607u7c3c0f41m896aac9d3e0302d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Mr Chaithanya, You rightly point out, HUMAN BEING is a HUMAN BEING. There is no Hindu Human or Muslim Human or Christian Human. So, why should there be Indian Human or Pakistani Human? Why not just remain Human? Is being human not enough? Why do should Indian human have more validity than Hindu Human or Muslim human? More fundamentallym, what is the need for it? regards, Sampath On 1/21/08, reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote: > > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome (Krishna Chaithanya) > 2. Re: Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome (chanchal malviya) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 13:23:25 +0530 > From: Krishna Chaithanya > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > To: chanchal malviya > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > HUMAN BEING is a HUMAN BEING. There is no Hindu Human or Muslim Human or > Christian Human. > > Likewise Indian is an Indian. You give a call to all the Indians to > organise a road show against terrorism. Every Indian who understands the > brutality of terrorism will join. Every Indian who wants a safe living > environment will join. Organise it collectively. If your efforts are honest > and sincere it will be the most touching roadshow. > > Bharat mata ki Jai is reduced to a slogan. Slogans ican not always > inspire people. Make people feel Bharatmata, then they will say 'Jaya ho'. > With words, slogans and force you cant make people feel a nation. > > > KC > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:29:00 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > I again say.. I do not hate them... > My language might be tough... > > But I want them to become Indian Muslim rather then Islamic Muslim... > I want them to join our slogan of 'Bharat mata ki Jai'.. which Bukhari and > the whole mulim community have rejected... > I want them to join a road show against terrorism.. > > I never wanted them to tell me Quran... I never wanted them to kill us > when we are worshipping our dieties in temples in the name of Idolators as > said in Quran.. > I want them to come out of those killing attitude and join the loving > attitude... > > But I am finding that Hindus are the first enemy of Hindus... > They have forgotten to live... They are already dead (this is what Lord > Krishna exactly meant in 11th chapter when he showed Arjuna that they have > already been killed)... and hence it is easy for Islam or Christianity to > easily do thousands of Conversion... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Krishna Chaithanya > To: chanchal malviya > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:42:49 AM > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > > > Glad to know that the supreme being has chosen you to save the nation > Every religious fundamentalist believes that he is the chosen one and his > religion is the only path > May the god bless you > > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:20:59 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com > > > > > > You are not to decide the right path... > You are not among ones who can save the nation... > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Krishna Chaithanya > To: chanchal malviya > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:43:30 PM > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > > > You are the best human I've ever come across. > I can feel your energy,very vinrant, unfortunately it has not found the > right path > > God bless you > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:37:00 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com > > > > > > You first sacrifice your house to a Muslim.. > And then we will think about Kashmir... > You are an Idiot... and an Anti-National... Absolutely no doubt.. > > People like you will create many Kashmirs.. and get every Hindu killed... > It is better you convert... > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Krishna Chaithanya > To: chanchal malviya > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:37:51 PM > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > > I'v no problem accepting Kashmir as a country, why not the Govt. accept > it? why should we sacrifice our soldiers there? How much resources we have > wasted on Kashmir all these years? how many people we'v got killed? > Is there any meaning to it. > > Isn't it stupid- instead of holding what is with us tight, we focused a > lot on Kashmir and allowed the fire to spread to other regions. > > KC > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:47:47 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com > > > > > > > Yes.. I mean it... > Because Kashmir is virtually a country now.. > > It is army of India that is still holding it.. > And Muslims don't want that.. > > This is the reason, you find so much of Muslims shouting on Army.. > > This is the truth... Accept or Reject is your choice... > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Krishna Chaithanya > To: chanchal malviya > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:10:18 PM > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > > > I can start quoting dates with killing > counts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... > Correct yourself please... > You'v said countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and KASHMIR....! > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:21:53 -0800 > > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com; kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com; > reader-list at sarai.net > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > > > Don't mislead... > > The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to India > (all HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India... (I will get the Video > uploaded on UTube on this, as this was shown by an external news channel)... > and you say, women are raped in India.. > > > > You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of having > more than one wife.. there is no freedom to women to report rapes... who > will show what happens in your community... > The Quran says them all... and I have all senteces of Quran right with > me.... Believe me, all awaken Hindus are now reading Quran... they all know > what is there in that book... > > So, Muslims cannot fool the world any more that Quran teaches Peace... > and Islam is a peaceful religion... > > > > Modi is a simple indication, what Hindus are now thinking... It is > Muslims who have to think now... they have created this world a land of > havoc... Everywhere they are simply engaged in Killing.... > > They even kill each other, as in Iraq and now in Pakistan... And they > are seriously killing Hindus like anything.... If this is again refuted... I > can start quoting dates with killing counts in countries like Pakistan, > Bangladesh and Kashmir... > > > > I don't know, what is in their head.... How do they get so easily > terrorised... What do they get in believing that killign an Idolator is a > work of God... It is stupid... and yet they all > are keeping this faith in their head.... > > they all are not engaged in killing, but they all are engaged in > supporting this act... > > Quran says, forgive the Idolators only if they accept Islam... and Quran > says this right from second Surah to the last one... > > > > Why? Our religion don't teach about this variance at all... Geeta > teaches how to unite, how to live with respective with each other, how to > love, how to perform duty... Why can't you teach peace... > > > > Why can't you understand that Nature has created every creature (of all > species) unique and different.. Nature has produced variance so that > creatures can live with respect to each other... A specie is not naturally > allowed to kill the same specie.. except for humans.. where humans are > killing humans... > > > > Let India live with its heritage of Hindutva... Thousands of years of > killing and enforcement have failed to eliminate Hindus... Another > thousand will also fail... Because nature will keep the variance alive... > But the attempt of Islam and christianity would only produce killing of > innocent people... > > > > Hindus would kill muslims only during riots or war... But Muslim would > kill always for religious reasons... > > Please stop talking all these things.. > > Please talk peace... > > Please talk how to proliferate the nation.. > > Please suggest how to remove the Quranic Islam and produce Indian > Islam... > > Please stop attacking Hindus, Modi and Army... > > Please, please, please.... > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Zainab Bawa > > To: Kshmendra Kaul ; sarai list < > reader-list at sarai.net> > > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 3:42:08 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > > > Dear > Kshmendra and all your supporters and back slappers, > > > > You can easily pinpoint Oishik for his outburst of anger and frustration > and > > then state that because he (mis)directed his anger at Vedavati and > company, > > he has no right to talk about the abuse of Manipuri women at the hands > of > > the Indian state appointed soldiers there. How about for a moment > > questioning Lady Chanchal and her remarks and for once again coming back > to > > the issue that Oishik has tried to raise - the rape of women at the > hands of > > state appointed army and the manifestations of the state's violence at > > women? > > > > Chanchal diverted the topic by once again going back to her pet peeve of > > Islam and Muslim and her hang ups of some frozen history that she loves > to > > imagine. I pointed out to her that it has nothing to do with > Hindu-Muslim > > populations and Hindu-Muslim army soldiers but a > larger question and concern > > about women being direct targets of state violence (with that state > violence > > and injustice also being responsible for the rise of all kinds of other > > movements to combat it). I then pointed to Chanchal how I have also been > > eve-teased in Srinagar by soldiers. No, they did not come to ask me > whether > > I was Hindu or Muslim but made lewd remarks simply because I was woman > and > > bear breasts and bosom on my person. I also want to clarify that it not > > about the soldiers themselves, but about the institutions and the > systems > > that get perpetrated within the structure of the conflict and occupation > of > > space. Chanchal immediately retorted saying that because I happen to be > > "Muslim", I am likely to complain about being eve teased. *What kind of > a > > patriarchal and discriminatory remark is this?* This does not come to > your > > attention but Oishik's > suggestion of anal stimulation immediately strikes > > you and you make claims about the mothers and sisters of the world. You > > don't recognize that we have turned this into a battle of whose position > is > > right and backslapping. In our egostical positions and pride and > victimized > > states, as Gowhar and others have rightly pointed out, we fail to see > who > > suffers - children who are beaten by the army, women who are serially > raped > > and butchered, men whose psyches have been muted by the violences, > families > > that continue to suffer the losses of their loved ones, etc. and this is > not > > restricted to Kashmir, but to violence all over the world. But perhaps, > you > > would brush this aside by exclaiming that these are standard complaints > of > > Muslims. And then you cleverly subvert every issue, incidence and event > to > > Kashmir and to Muslims. Clever you! > > > > On this note, having > personally known Oishik, I vouch for him as a very > > sincere, honest and well-meaning person. One remark of anger and > frustration > > does not define a person's overall political commitments and thoughts. > And > > this would apply to my not boxing either of you as good or bad people on > the > > basis of your positions. > > > > Best, > > > > Zainab > > > > *P.S. Any immediate retort/s to this email will be and ought to be > > categorically ignored. * > > > > > > On Jan 20, 2008 3:05 PM, wrote: > > > > > Well said, with lal salaaam. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:48 pm > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > > To: sarai list > > > > > > > > Oishik > > > > > > > > 1. Thank you for the suggestion directed to me. It does not > > > > interest me. I too have some suggestions for you. > > > > > > > > 2. You seem to be obsessed with what you have experienced and > > > > suggested. You see a lot of merit in it. > > > > > > > > 3. Charitable soul that you are, you must have promoted it to > > > > your circle of family and friends. > > > > > > > > 4. OISHIT, since there might be others of your kind who might > > > > not find your suggestions/language obscene and crude, you must > > > > convince them about it. You must provide references for them on > > > > the efficacy of your suggestion. > > > > > > > > 5. So OISHIT, I presume we will get testimonials from your > > > > mother, sisters (if any), daughters (if any) and > others to whom > > > > you must have recommended the stimulation. They certainly would > > > > have respected your suggestion. Maybe you even helped them in the > > > > processes in the course of convincing them that your suggestion on > > > > means to experience pleasure is not abuse. You must mention the > > > > role played by you. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > > > > Kshmendra: > > > > > > > > That was not meant to be an abuse at all... it was meant to > > > > suggest a means to experience anal stimulation that can be > > > > orgasmic... I have tried it... so suggested that Vedavati do the > > > > same... you could also do the same... actually all the HINDUS who > > > > > are obsessing about nationalism on this listserv should do the > > > > same... they'll realise that there are better and more enjoyable -- > > > > and of course more useful things in life to do than spew virulent > > > > intolerance. Suggesting means to experience pleasure is not abuse, > > > > I'm sure you'll agree. > > > > > > > > And I am overwhelmed with the kind of response my comments have > > > > attracted -- that's the way to keep the Hindu bullshitters engaged > > > > I can clearly see. > > > > > > > > If you find this mail to be crude and obscene as well -- I > > > > would've made my point. > > > > > > > > Cheers... > > > > > > > > Oishik > > > > > > > > On Jan 19, 2008 3:16 AM, Kshmendra Kaul > > > > wrote: > > > > It is > ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to > > > > the notice of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against > > > > abuse directed at them. > > > > > > > > Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI) > > > > was the one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and > > > > obscene manner. > > > > > > > > Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would > > > > have to say to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights" > > > > (sic). > > > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > > > Try it now. > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > > > Room 016 B > > > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > > > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > > > > > 416.876.7926 > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > > > Try it now. > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > list > > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Fly HYD-BLR for Rs.499 Log on to MakeMyTrip! Check it out! > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it > now. > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > It's about getting married. Click here! Try it! > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > _________________________________________________________________ > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 00:09:23 -0800 (PST) > From: chanchal malviya > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > To: Krishna Chaithanya > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: <776211.49174.qm at web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > This is your notion.. Not a reality.. > There are many such roadshows.. but what you say has never found to be > applied... > > Even today, if you happen to be in Bangalore... Muslims celebrate with > Crackers when Pakistan wins a Cricket match with India... and stupid Hindus > cannot stop this.. > > Talk reality.. > Your humanity is of no value for hungry animals... > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Krishna Chaithanya > To: chanchal malviya > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:23:25 PM > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > HUMAN BEING is a HUMAN BEING. There is no Hindu Human or Muslim Human or > Christian Human. > > Likewise Indian is an Indian. You give a call to all the Indians to > organise a road show against terrorism. Every Indian who understands the > brutality of terrorism will join. Every Indian who wants a safe living > environment will join. Organise it collectively. If your efforts are honest > and sincere it will be the most touching roadshow. > > Bharat mata ki Jai is reduced to a slogan. Slogans ican not always > inspire people. Make people feel Bharatmata, then they will say 'Jaya ho'. > With words, slogans and force you cant make people feel a nation. > > > KC > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:29:00 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > > I again say.. I do not hate them... > My language might be tough... > > But I want them to become Indian Muslim rather then Islamic Muslim... > I want them to join our slogan of 'Bharat mata ki Jai'.. which Bukhari and > the whole mulim community have rejected... > I want them to join a road show against terrorism.. > > I never wanted them to tell me Quran... I never wanted them to kill us > when we are worshipping our dieties in temples in the name of Idolators as > said in Quran.. > I want them to come out of those killing attitude and join the loving > attitude... > > But I am finding that Hindus are the first enemy of Hindus... > They have forgotten to live... They are already dead (this is what Lord > Krishna exactly meant in 11th chapter when he showed Arjuna that they have > already been killed)... and hence it is easy for Islam or Christianity to > easily do thousands of Conversion... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Krishna Chaithanya > To: chanchal malviya > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:42:49 AM > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > Glad to know that the supreme being has chosen you to save the nation > Every religious fundamentalist believes that he is the chosen one and his > religion is the only path > May the god bless you > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:20:59 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com > > > You are not to decide the right path... > You are not among ones who can save the nation... > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Krishna Chaithanya > To: chanchal malviya > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:43:30 PM > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > You are the best human I've ever come across. > I can feel your energy,very vinrant, unfortunately it has not found the > right path > > God bless you > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:37:00 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com > > > You first sacrifice your house to a Muslim.. > And then we will think about Kashmir... > You are an Idiot... and an Anti-National... Absolutely no doubt.. > > People like you will create many Kashmirs.. and get every Hindu killed... > It is better you convert... > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Krishna Chaithanya > To: chanchal malviya > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:37:51 PM > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > I'v no problem accepting Kashmir as a country, why not the Govt. accept > it? why should we sacrifice our soldiers there? How much resources we have > wasted on Kashmir all these years? how many people we'v got killed? > Is there any meaning to it. > > Isn't it stupid- instead of holding what is with us tight, we focused a > lot on Kashmir and allowed the fire to spread to other regions. > > KC > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:47:47 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com > > > Yes.. I mean it... > Because Kashmir is virtually a country now.. > > It is army of India that is still holding it.. > And Muslims don't want that.. > > This is the reason, you find so much of Muslims shouting on Army.. > > This is the truth... Accept or Reject is your choice... > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Krishna Chaithanya > To: chanchal malviya > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:10:18 PM > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > > I can start quoting dates with killingcounts in countries like Pakistan, > Bangladesh and Kashmir... Correct yourself please... You'v said countries > like Pakistan, Bangladesh and KASHMIR....! > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:21:53 -0800 > > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com; kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com; > reader-list at sarai.net > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > > > Don't mislead... > > The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to India > (all HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India... (I will get the Video > uploaded on UTube on this, as this was shown by an external news channel)... > and you say, women are raped in India.. > > > > You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of having > more than one wife.. there is no freedom to women to report rapes... who > will show what happens in your community... The Quran says them all... and I > have all senteces of Quran right with me.... Believe me, all awaken Hindus > are now reading Quran... they all know what is there in that book... > > So, Muslims cannot fool the world any more that Quran teaches Peace... > and Islam is a peaceful religion... > > > > Modi is a simple indication, what Hindus are now thinking... It is > Muslims who have to think now... they have created this world a land of > havoc... Everywhere they are simply engaged in Killing.... > > They even kill each other, as in Iraq and now in Pakistan... And they > are seriously killing Hindus like anything.... If this is again refuted... I > can start quoting dates with killing counts in countries like Pakistan, > Bangladesh and Kashmir... > > > > I don't know, what is in their head.... How do they get so easily > terrorised... What do they get in believing that killign an Idolator is a > work of God... It is stupid... and yet they all are keeping this faith in > their head.... > > they all are not engaged in killing, but they all are engaged in > supporting this act... > > Quran says, forgive the Idolators only if they accept Islam... and Quran > says this right from second Surah to the last one... > > > > Why? Our religion don't teach about this variance at all... Geeta > teaches how to unite, how to live with respective with each other, how to > love, how to perform duty... Why can't you teach peace... > > > > Why can't you understand that Nature has created every creature (of all > species) unique and different.. Nature has produced variance so that > creatures can live with respect to each other... A specie is not naturally > allowed to kill the same specie.. except for humans.. where humans are > killing humans... > > > > Let India live with its heritage of Hindutva... Thousands of years of > killing and enforcement have failed to eliminate Hindus... Another thousand > will also fail... Because nature will keep the variance alive... But the > attempt of Islam and christianity would only produce killing of innocent > people... > > > > Hindus would kill muslims only during riots or war... But Muslim would > kill always for religious reasons... > > Please stop talking all these things.. > > Please talk peace... > > Please talk how to proliferate the nation.. > > Please suggest how to remove the Quranic Islam and produce Indian > Islam... > > Please stop attacking Hindus, Modi and Army... > > Please, please, please.... > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Zainab Bawa > > To: Kshmendra Kaul ; sarai list < > reader-list at sarai.net> > > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 3:42:08 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > > > Dear Kshmendra and all your supporters and back slappers, > > > > You can easily pinpoint Oishik for his outburst of anger and frustration > and > > then state that because he (mis)directed his anger at Vedavati and > company, > > he has no right to talk about the abuse of Manipuri women at the hands > of > > the Indian state appointed soldiers there. How about for a moment > > questioning Lady Chanchal and her remarks and for once again coming back > to > > the issue that Oishik has tried to raise - the rape of women at the > hands of > > state appointed army and the manifestations of the state's violence at > > women? > > > > Chanchal diverted the topic by once again going back to her pet peeve of > > Islam and Muslim and her hang ups of some frozen history that she loves > to > > imagine. I pointed out to her that it has nothing to do with > Hindu-Muslim > > populations and Hindu-Muslim army soldiers but a larger question and > concern > > about women being direct targets of state violence (with that state > violence > > and injustice also being responsible for the rise of all kinds of other > > movements to combat it). I then pointed to Chanchal how I have also been > > eve-teased in Srinagar by soldiers. No, they did not come to ask me > whether > > I was Hindu or Muslim but made lewd remarks simply because I was woman > and > > bear breasts and bosom on my person. I also want to clarify that it not > > about the soldiers themselves, but about the institutions and the > systems > > that get perpetrated within the structure of the conflict and occupation > of > > space. Chanchal immediately retorted saying that because I happen to be > > "Muslim", I am likely to complain about being eve teased. *What kind of > a > > patriarchal and discriminatory remark is this?* This does not come to > your > > attention but Oishik's suggestion of anal stimulation immediately > strikes > > you and you make claims about the mothers and sisters of the world. You > > don't recognize that we have turned this into a battle of whose position > is > > right and backslapping. In our egostical positions and pride and > victimized > > states, as Gowhar and others have rightly pointed out, we fail to see > who > > suffers - children who are beaten by the army, women who are serially > raped > > and butchered, men whose psyches have been muted by the violences, > families > > that continue to suffer the losses of their loved ones, etc. and this is > not > > restricted to Kashmir, but to violence all over the world. But perhaps, > you > > would brush this aside by exclaiming that these are standard complaints > of > > Muslims. And then you cleverly subvert every issue, incidence and event > to > > Kashmir and to Muslims. Clever you! > > > > On this note, having personally known Oishik, I vouch for him as a very > > sincere, honest and well-meaning person. One remark of anger and > frustration > > does not define a person's overall political commitments and thoughts. > And > > this would apply to my not boxing either of you as good or bad people on > the > > basis of your positions. > > > > Best, > > > > Zainab > > > > *P.S. Any immediate retort/s to this email will be and ought to be > > categorically ignored. * > > > > > > On Jan 20, 2008 3:05 PM, wrote: > > > > > Well said, with lal salaaam. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:48 pm > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > > To: sarai list > > > > > > > Oishik > > > > > > > > 1. Thank you for the suggestion directed to me. It does not > > > > interest me. I too have some suggestions for you. > > > > > > > > 2. You seem to be obsessed with what you have experienced and > > > > suggested. You see a lot of merit in it. > > > > > > > > 3. Charitable soul that you are, you must have promoted it to > > > > your circle of family and friends. > > > > > > > > 4. OISHIT, since there might be others of your kind who might > > > > not find your suggestions/language obscene and crude, you must > > > > convince them about it. You must provide references for them on > > > > the efficacy of your suggestion. > > > > > > > > 5. So OISHIT, I presume we will get testimonials from your > > > > mother, sisters (if any), daughters (if any) and others to whom > > > > you must have recommended the stimulation. They certainly would > > > > have respected your suggestion. Maybe you even helped them in the > > > > processes in the course of convincing them that your suggestion on > > > > means to experience pleasure is not abuse. You must mention the > > > > role played by you. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > > > > Kshmendra: > > > > > > > > That was not meant to be an abuse at all... it was meant to > > > > suggest a means to experience anal stimulation that can be > > > > orgasmic... I have tried it... so suggested that Vedavati do the > > > > same... you could also do the same... actually all the HINDUS who > > > > are obsessing about nationalism on this listserv should do the > > > > same... they'll realise that there are better and more enjoyable -- > > > > and of course more useful things in life to do than spew virulent > > > > intolerance. Suggesting means to experience pleasure is not abuse, > > > > I'm sure you'll agree. > > > > > > > > And I am overwhelmed with the kind of response my comments have > > > > attracted -- that's the way to keep the Hindu bullshitters engaged > > > > I can clearly see. > > > > > > > > If you find this mail to be crude and obscene as well -- I > > > > would've made my point. > > > > > > > > Cheers... > > > > > > > > Oishik > > > > > > > > On Jan 19, 2008 3:16 AM, Kshmendra Kaul > > > > wrote: > > > > It is ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to > > > > the notice of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against > > > > abuse directed at them. > > > > > > > > Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI) > > > > was the one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and > > > > obscene manner. > > > > > > > > Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would > > > > have to say to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights" > > > > (sic). > > > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > > > Try it now. > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > > > Room 016 B > > > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > > > > > 416.876.7926 > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > > > Try it now. > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > list > > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Fly HYD-BLR for Rs.499 Log on to MakeMyTrip! Check it out! > > > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it > now. > > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > It's about getting married. Click here! Try it! > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > reader-list mailing list > reader-list at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 54, Issue 60 > ******************************************* > From waliarifi3 at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 19:48:29 2008 From: waliarifi3 at gmail.com (Wali Arifi) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 06:18:29 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits protest against Amnesty International In-Reply-To: <6353c690801180035u5928feabxfe24b1edf01f5595@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690801180035u5928feabxfe24b1edf01f5595@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4fcaee300801210618v3b68d4d7m674741c0efbfdad7@mail.gmail.com> Mr A of ARKP, Never rest till you "rights" are recognised! Until the "killings" and "purging" of your community are not recognised as "genocide, holocaust" etc etc etc whatever you may want it to be... There must be hope in the Amnesty. Keep up the good work! Best Wali On Jan 18, 2008 12:35 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Kashmiri Pandits protest against Amnesty International > > *New Delhi* > *A worldwide initiative of the Kashmiri Pandit youth "Roots In Kashmir" > protested against the international human rights group Amnesty > International > on the occasion of 60th anniversary of Universal Declaration of Human > Rights > on Sunday.* > > *The group accused Amnesty of being biased in their human rights reports > in > the last two decades on the issue of Kashmir and Kashmiri Pandits.* > > *"It has just failed to come to our rescue; Amnesty has failed to rise to > the occasion wherein it could have played a greater role in raising the > issues connected with the Kashmiri Pandit exodus," said a group member.* > ** > *Read detailed story, pictures and more at - > http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/* > ** > *Thanks* > *Aditya Raj Kaul* > *New Delhi* > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From tulunadu at hotmail.com Mon Jan 21 20:38:53 2008 From: tulunadu at hotmail.com (Krishna Chaithanya) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:38:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. In-Reply-To: <942304.80495.qm@web45514.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <942304.80495.qm@web45514.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Are you all eating salt,chillies,onion , pepper,masala,asafatodea (tamo guna will develop HIGH BP) KC Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 05:47:02 -0800 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; radhikarajen at vsnl.net; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com CC: reader-list at sarai.net I think Krishna Chaitanya is from ISCON. MAYA: jo dikhta hai vo actually nahi hai jo nahi hai vo dikhta hai Chanchal forget to say people are categorized UTTAM,MADHYAM AND ADHAM, based on the Trigunas (satva,rajas,tamo ). So your diet matters to control the Trigunas and hence making of the people. If you eat vegetables satva guna will develop (BP CONTROL) if you eat meat rajo guna will develop(all disorders) if you eat salt,chillies,onion , pepper,masala,asafatodea tamo guna will develop(HIGH BP) I am not just joking but you try with above food on alternate days and check the changes in your body (i am not asking vegetarians to eat non-veg and vice versa) Chanchal,radhika pl endorse that we are different individuals and don't know each other! otherwise list will still feel the same thing that we are one and the same!!! Krishna Chaithanya wrote: It all depends on how you want to feel people and religion MAYA was the one I was born into. I had no choice in this matter, like you didn't. I believe in my Dharma, not in shaving my head and dancing to the rythm of drums and hare hare. Hope this answer helps you to feel MAYA KC > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:01:29 +0500 > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > CC: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net > > Hi, > > which shanti and Maya are you talking about, - the one you had as girlfriend during your education or the one you have had after embracing the cult ? Even in hindu way of life, dharma is a means of earning dollars and having princely life with krishna conscious, hope you are not of that type. ? Such have only superficial grasp of Geetha as told by the Lord and get mired in maya of dollars. ! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: chanchal malviya > Date: Monday, January 21, 2008 10:54 am > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > To: Krishna Chaithanya , reader-list at sarai.net > > > You are a selfish person... Realizing Shanti only for you... > > The mantra is far deep than you can even think... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Krishna Chaithanya > > To: reader-list at sarai.net; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:37:06 PM > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > What I know can not be expressed in words. I feel peace within me > > when I Chant OM SHANTHI SHANTHI SHANTHI. > > > > It appears like you you understand what is OM and why there is > > Three Shanthi. But how come there is no sign of peace! > > > > I don't care if any other religion has such slogans in their > > religious books. > > It doesn't make any difference to my belief and faith in the Supreme. > > > > KC > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:44:33 -0800 > > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com > > > > > > Do you understand also... what is OM and why is there Three > > Shanti... > > Do you know any other religion which has such slogans in their > > religious books... > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Krishna Chaithanya > > To: chanchal malviya > > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:28:20 PM > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > > > Om Shanthi Shanti Shanti hi > > > > KC > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:53:35 -0800 > > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > How many bombs you have thrown.. > > Ask this to them... Not us... > > We are reacting.. They are acting... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Krishna Chaithanya > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:19:37 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > > > Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be > > on the society....!? > > > > We bomb them > > and they bomb us > > and we bomb them > > and they bomb us > > together we bomb us > > then who is left to bomb...? > > > > KC > > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:33:09 +0500 > > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > > > Hi, true, it for too long hindus have been tolerent leading to a > > sarcastic comment that they are cowards, may be Nehru was coward > > when India was divided for his greed,may be Krishna menon loved > > chinese vaginas more than indian ones, but now it is time that > > hindu understood the value of SAMA, Dana, BHEDHA are over, dandam > > dashagunam bhaveth. Violence can be stopped only with violent > > means.Then peace will be on the society. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: chanchal malviya > > > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:24 am > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > To: Javed , reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > It is time for Hindus to rise now... > > > > And no dicussion or virtual communities can stop it... > > > > > > > > Swami Vivekanand said - India have enough of religion.. > > > > And it is time now to say this to Christian and Muslims who > > force > > > > conversions the same thing.. > > > > If Sanskrit is the mother of all languages, Hinduism is the > > mother > > > > of all Religions... (But two religions have in particular > > always > > > > learnt to abuse their mother(Hinduism) - Islam and > > Christianity)...> > It is time now to stop the nation from > > producing more Kashmirs... > > > > It is time now to stop the non-Independent Religious India... > > > > > > > > So go on my dear friends as much as you like to abuse Hindus.. > > > > It hardly matters now.. > > > > > > > > Ramayan is proving to be a reality, Mahabharat is a reality.. > > > > History will also change.. > > > > It is Hindus that have taught peace to the world.. but to do > > that > > > > again, the two attackers have to be checked now.. > > > > People are doing that.. And will do that.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: Javed > > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 6:00:16 PM > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > > > > > India's Islam > > > > by Arun Nair > > > > > > > > Firstly, I must apologise if this article smacks of an impolite > > > > urgency and prescriptive-ness. I mean not to be arrogant, but as > > > > someone addressing you on a matter of deep concern to us all, > > I felt > > > > that there was little room for ceremonial apologies before every > > > > sentence. Also, as an Indian middle-class Hindu who grew up in the > > > > Babri-masjid 90s, it is easy for me to say some of the things > > I say > > > > here. > > > > > > > > Secondly, I address you, the reader, as an Indian citizen, not > > as a > > > > saintly Kabir or Gandhi preaching love for humanity. Our > > collective> > interests are being threatened by communal forces > > from within and > > > > without. WE MUST ACT. We must not merely lament about our > > respective> > versions of helplessnesses and others' faults. We > > are free today > > > > because India's greatest generation shook off the ghosts that > > > > bedevilled them, and took action to protect our interests. I > > implore> > you to continue that legacy. > > > > > > > > Thirdly, while I will go into what in my opinion are highly > > plausible> > theories of Indian nationhood and nationalism, my > > primary aim here is > > > > not to write any treatise on politics or sociology, but to > > protect our > > > > rights to belong equally to India – our common ancestral land > > – as > > > > Indians, and as free, dignified humans. > > > > > > > > Fourthly, my ideas will be presented largely based on first > > > > principles, also known as common-sense. > > > > > > > > My thesis is this: India must boldly assert its claim on Islamic > > > > civilisation in the subcontinent. That is the key to end our > > communal> > woes. > > > > > > > > This does not mean that India must become Islamic, or that Indian > > > > Muslims must be somehow Hinduised. The idea, instead, is to > > campaign> > relentlessly for India's Islamic civilisational > > authenticity.> > > > > > In the Indian psyche, Pakistan stands for Islam. Sadly for us and > > > > admittedly in a weaker form, Islam is also synonymous with > > Pakistan> > and everything Pakistani. This wouldn't have been so > > bad if Pakistan > > > > wasn't, well, un-Indian. We must use every tool at our > > disposal as a > > > > people to destroy the entrenched idea of Pakistani ownership of > > > > subcontinental Islam from within India. More importantly, this > > idea> > must be attacked from without it, because that is where it > > originates.> > > > > > Our chief weapon to eliminate Islam-Pakistan hyphenation from the > > > > subcontinent will be an authentic claim: the centre of Islamic > > > > civilisation in South Asia has always been undivided India, > > and after > > > > partition, India is its natural primary heir. The fact that a few > > > > million Muslims left India during partition to settle in our > > erstwhile> > outlying provinces doesn't change this. Neither does > > the fact that the > > > > Indian people chose a progressive, secular, democratic polity for > > > > their republic. > > > > > > > > In our minds and in the world's view, subcontinental Islam is > > under> > Pakistani occupation. The historical Indo-centric nature of > > > > subcontinental Islam should be used to throw off this > > psychological> > yoke. I urge Indians to rally together once again > > as our greatest > > > > generation did to protect our collective interests as the > > people of > > > > India. I urge friends of India all over the world to join us. > > Both in > > > > terms of geography and spirit, Islam in the subcontinent that > > > > coexisted and flourished alongside Indic cultures, has always been > > > > more Indian than Pakistani. If any single country represents > > > > subcontinental Islam as it historically was, it is India. Not > > > > Pakistan. > > > > > > > > India's Mughals. India's Qutub Minar, Gol Gumaz, and Taj Mahal. > > > > India's Kabir. India's Tipu Sultan, Shah Jahan, Akbar, and, > > why not, > > > > Aurangazeb. India's Urdu. India's Ghalib and Khusro. India's > > Delhi,> > Lucknow, Mysore, Hyderabad, Malabar, and Agra. > > > > > > > > Good history has to be deliberately written > > > > > > > > The people of India inherited thousands of years of history and > > > > associated baggage that we didn't really ask for. > > > > > > > > Keep in mind though that history is not a dead object - it is > > > > unfurling even as you read this. We may not be able to change what > > > > happened in India 200 years ago. But 200 years from now when > > people> > look back, they will see the Indian history that our > > generation wrote. > > > > It becomes then our duty, both as Indians and as sensible > > humans, to > > > > write it well. > > > > > > > > It is a great privilege to deliberately be able to write a > > part of > > > > something grand like the history of India. The first > > generation of > > > > Indians who did a coordinated job of writing our history was > > the one > > > > that won us our independence – our "freedom-generation". They > > could> > have attempted to write their Indian chapter any way they > > wanted to. > > > > We could have had a dark, China-style communism, for instance. > > But,> > given the Indian context, the freedom-generation chose the > > most> > egalitarian, elegant, and humanist theme they could come > > up with: a > > > > secular, liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, that > > takes its > > > > strength from its inherent pluralism and its inheritance of > > one of > > > > mankind's greatest civilisations. > > > > > > > > The freedom-generation's legacy for us is the deliberate and > > > > intelligent manner in which they forged an Indian national > > identity.> > Thanks to their efforts, our nationality is a solid > > concept. An Indian > > > > from Karnataka has a robust nationalistic bond with Indians > > say from > > > > Punjab, Gujarat, Assam, or Delhi. Regardless of what languages we > > > > speak, we all recognise Marathi, Tamil, Bengali and Telugu as > > Indian> > languages – ancestral assets that all Indians > > collectively own. > > > > > > > > It is a mistake, however, to think that the nation-building > > task they > > > > began is complete. Indian nationalism is not an idea frozen in > > time,> > but an evolving one. We, the successors of India's > > freedom-generation, > > > > must exercise our prerogative to define its finer contours and > > bring> > in new ideas to enrich it. Furthermore, we have an > > obligation to both > > > > our founding fathers and India's posterity to do this while > > being true > > > > to our quintessential Indian-ness, the just, egalitarian > > nature of our > > > > country as embodied in our constitution. > > > > > > > > Given that India's situation is not as pressing as it once > > was, new > > > > nationalist leaders – giants of the stature of Mahatma Gandhi, > > Khan> > Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Subhash Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh, > > Jawaharlal> > Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad or Vallabhai Patel – may be > > difficult to > > > > emerge. There is no need to though. We succeeded them, and we must > > > > take this task upon ourselves. The freedom-generation watches > > over us > > > > in the form of our fraternity as Indians which they moulded at > > a great > > > > cost, and our constitution. > > > > > > > > Indian Nationalism - the idea of Indian brotherhood > > > > > > > > Amidst all this noisy consternation of Taslima Nasrin, Babri- > > masjid,> > BJP-Congress etc., its easy to lose sight of the really > > big pictures. > > > > Consider, for instance, this question: what really is the > > essence of > > > > Indian nationalism? Why do we all feel so closely tied to > > India > > > > and to > > > > each other? > > > > > > > > My answer is that, to put it simply, without the land we call > > India,> > Indians either have no identity, or very anaemic > > identities. All > > > > Indians share this same curious relation to India. > > > > When we are born to the same human mother, we are brothers. Our > > > > constitution formed by our freedom-generation explicitly asserts > > > > fraternity among the Indian people. Fraternity – brotherhood. > > In what > > > > sense are we brothers? > > > > > > > > Indians are brothers in the sense that the motherland that > > birthed my > > > > identity, also birthed yours. India is our ancestral land, and we > > > > should be proud of everything associated with it. Everything > > in India, > > > > its religions, its good and its bad, its languages, its > > glories and > > > > struggles, its rivers, its emperors, its heroes and villains, > > > > everything – is intricately weaved into our consciousnesses of > > who we > > > > are, where we come from, what our place in this world is, and how > > > > other humans see us. Without that identity, we are crippled. > > > > > > > > Ours is no ordinary brotherhood. Indian people didn't come > > into being > > > > merely a few centuries ago. We are an ancient civilisation, > > and what > > > > we have is a civlisational brotherhood – a bond arising from > > all of > > > > our belonging to the civilisation that unfolded in the same land, > > > > India. That brotherhood was formally declared through the > > constitution> > in 1949, but it existed much before that. Before > > our greatest > > > > generation gave it a concrete wording in the 20th century, it > > was well > > > > moulded in the crucible that is our land, in the fire of the > > previous> > several dozen, if not more, centuries. > > > > > > > > Every country of the world has stories that define their national > > > > essences. What is the most essential feature of Indian > > > > nationalism? It > > > > is our Indian identity – our being tied to India, and our > > > > civilisational brotherhood to each other in being bonded so. All > > > > Indians, regardless of their religion or language, has this > > bond with > > > > India and with each other. > > > > Indians must pause for a while and think why our anthem's > > going over > > > > our landmarks is so emotive. Or why Hindu-Muslim-Sikh-Christian > > > > insignia are powerful. Or why merely thinking of our history, > > or our > > > > Kerala, Karnataka, Maharashtra, UP, Punjab and Bengal moves > > all of us > > > > equally. > > > > > > > > It's because they remind us of our organic ties to India, and the > > > > brotherhood that we have with each other. This natural bond > > given to > > > > us by our glorious and at times bloody history is important. > > If we > > > > don't uphold this bond with the ferocity that our greatest > > generation> > did, if we don't use it to protect our common > > interests, our country > > > > will remain weak. > > > > > > > > Our country's nature > > > > > > > > What is the nature of our country? What does it mean for > > something > > > > to be Indian? > > > > For one, if all of us Indians could get together today and > > declare in > > > > one voice that India stands for certain values, then that > > would be an > > > > authoritative statement. India is what Indians say it is. If, > > say, the > > > > people of the then-Indian civilisation – Hindus, Muslims, > > Christians,> > Buddhists, Sikhs, and Jains – had made such a > > statement 400 years ago > > > > and preserved its spirit through centuries, that would have > > probably> > have been one of the greatest Indian texts. > > > > > > > > If you will recall, a very similar event actually did happen > > in 1949, > > > > when the founding fathers of the Indian republic adopted, > > enacted, and > > > > gave to ourselves - the sovereign people of India - our > > constitution.> > The preamble reads, > > > > > > > > "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to > > constitute India > > > > into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to > > secure> > to all its citizens: > > > > JUSTICE, social, economic and political; > > > > LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; > > > > EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among > > them all > > > > FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the > > unity and > > > > integrity of the Nation. > > > > IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, > > 1949,> > do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS > > CONSTITUTION."> > > > > > In an absolute sense, the values of justice, liberty, and equality > > > > have an intuitive appeal to all humans everywhere. However, the > > > > formidable authority of our constitution comes from the > > crushed but > > > > proud people who paid a very high price for our right to live as > > > > equals and as dignified humans in India. We must take their > > word for > > > > what India is – they must have known and dreamt quite a bit > > about it. > > > > > > > > India's greatest generation definitely realised that divisivism, > > > > self-doubt, and other demons from our past would haunt the > > republic> > they formed. Which is why the constitution is > > important. It helps us > > > > protect our country from ourselves. > > > > > > > > The Constitution. Indian Nationalism. How we will defend India. > > > > > > > > Those who doubt the moral power of our freedom-generation, our > > > > constitutional ethos, and Indian nationalism need only look at > > > > Pakistan, which renounced all these in its attempts not to be > > seen as > > > > Indian. Pakistan's leaders, in trying to defend their divisve > > national> > philosophy, forced the most horrible bankruptcy on its > > people.> > > > > > Rather than using Indian nationalism and the constitution to > > tackle> > our communal issues, I am appalled at the general trend > > to merely > > > > lament that India is on its way to being declared an non- > > secular state > > > > - the hundreds of millions of Indians fully intent on > > preventing this > > > > notwithstanding. > > > > > > > > Pakistan-style Islamism, Ummah-isation of Hinduism, alienation > > of > > > > Indian Muslims > > > > > > > > There are three major trends in India today that are relevant > > to > > > > our topic. > > > > > > > > Firstly, India has very serious conflicts of interest with > > Pakistan.> > We have gone to war with that country several times. === message truncated === Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. _________________________________________________________________ Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 20:51:19 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:51:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Are these humans nationalists? In-Reply-To: <479458F1.5060703@sarai.net> References: <144261.98551.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <479458F1.5060703@sarai.net> Message-ID: <47e122a70801210721u2bbbf58al3e29f40316236518@mail.gmail.com> yes, too much unidirectional mailing is happenig on the list, my own post fails to appear. so , please click my http:indersalim.livejournal.com and read with love is On Jan 21, 2008 2:03 PM, Vivek Narayanan wrote: > Dear Adhimoolam, > > Please note that there's much more going on on this list than the mails > you mention below. Rather than leaving the reader list altogether, I > suggest you consider using filters. With filters, you can block any > messages that you don't wish to read, especially from people who post > four or five messages a day, thus clogging up the inbox. See my mail on > this subject at: > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-November/011005.html > > Cheers > Vivek > > Vetrivel Adhimoolam wrote: > > I have gained lot from this list, but lately it has been increasingly > > hijacked by religious fundamentalists and henceforth I have decided to opt > > out. > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in Mon Jan 21 22:55:45 2008 From: ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in (Ranjith Thankappan) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:25:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <806886.50077.qm@web8715.mail.in.yahoo.com> hahaha poor supreme ..what a work load give her some domestic lessons toooooo let the female GOD be emancipated from the burden of creating dharmis and adharmis....and after that take avatars to kill,,,, what a bastard imagination,,kudos... it's better not to create soemthing if really wanna destroy it GODs and Goddesss should hold caste meetings like mumbai brahmins and unlearn traditional idiosyncracies learn from the idiotic caste brahin selves who melt their brain on merit(sorry genetically engineered..so need gene-mapping exercise as well... cultural study people beware..... ) Gods are u listening....... thnks --------------------------------- Forgot the famous last words? Access your message archive online. Click here. From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Tue Jan 22 10:36:59 2008 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 05:06:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] the likes of Kafeel, Sabeel and Haneef... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <455001.66115.qm@web8415.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Radhika Rajen You just mentioned about "the likes of Kafeel, Sabeel and Haneef"... What do you have to say say about the following report: New Report Points To Growing Sangh Student Network in the US New Delhi, Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 : The Campaign to Stop Funding Hate (CSFH) will release its latest report "UNMISTAKABLY SANGH: THE NATIONAL HSC AND ITS HINDUTVA AGENDA" on the growth of the Sangh Parivar's student wing in the USA - the Hindu Students Council (HSC). The press conference and report release are scheduled at the Press Club, Raisina Road, at 3 PM today. The report documents a long and dense trail of connections between the HSC and the Sangh from 1990 to the present. Ironically, the HSC exists on US American university campuses because of the liberal policy of multiculturalism that allows for diversity of cultures and tolerance. Yet HSC has promoted divisive and sectarian speakers such as Ashok Singhal and Sadhvi Rithambara. Indian American youth many times join the HSC without an awareness of the "invisible" connections between HSC and the Sangh. The HSC was founded in 1990 as a project of the VHP of America. In 1993, Ashok Singhal, the then General Secretary of the VHP declared, "Now, the first project we have in mind is strengthening the Hindu Student Council".1 The report Unmistakably Sangh, provides the first comprehensive documentation of the origins, methods and practices of the HSC and directly counters the claims of the HSC that it "has been independently run since 1993".2 The report uses documents from Sangh sources - VHPA tax returns, filings with US Patents Office, Internet domain registry information, archives of the HSC, and publications of the Sangh Parivar in North America and elsewhere, to establish that the HSC was and remains an arm of the global Sangh Parivar. Between 2002 and 2004, two reports, "The Foreign Exchange of Hate", and "In Bad faith" exposed the siphoning of funds by the Sangh in the US and UK respectively. This new report establishes that the Sangh's interests and activities in the US go far beyond funding, and that the HSC represents a grooming space for young Sangh leadership and the entry of the Sangh ideology into second generation Indian American spaces. "The Hindu Students Council claims to be an independent organization with no links to any Hindutva organization or movement. This is patently unfair because most of those who join HSC do not know of the strong ties between HSC and the Sangh," says Ashwini Rao, a campaign coordinator for CSFH. Several of the HSC's early recruits on American campuses are leaders in the Global Sangh operations today. "How important the HSC is to the Sangh can be seen from the fact that the HSC built and operated a significant part of the Sangh's electronic infrastructure out of a server cluster in California" Raja Swamy, another CSFH coordinator pointed out. This runs counter to the policy of multiculturalism that allows organizations such as HSC on American campuses. The latest report is part of CSFH's Truth Out on HSCs3 Campaign aimed at educating Indian-Americans on the Sangh Parivar and its operations in the US. For more information on the press conference write to: hsctruthout@ gmail.com or call +91-9848470907. Summary and full versions of the report will be available at the press conference and online at www.stopfundinghate .org after 3:00 PM IST on January 17. -end- [The complete report 'Uncovering the Global Sangh' is available at: http://stopfundingh ate.org/Unmistak ably_Sangh. pdf For Info: Bala Murli N. or Biju Mathew-9848470907 hsctruthout@ stopfundinghate. org --------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:48:16 +0500 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Add Mobile Alert Subject: Re: [Reader-list] are these nationalists Hi, every human for better opportunities do migrate for greener pastures and for better life, but none other than the islamic followers prove to be more fanatic to faith , that is why you will find the names of the likes Kafeel, Sabeel and Haneef and now latest is two more in spain detained for being subversive with terror acts. ! You will find a patel or a singh or a south indian any where in palnet earth, jokes are about a keralite who sells chai in moon, but none have taken their faith to public domain, but practise it for their well being, not foisting the faith on the society they have adopted to live in. ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् Date: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:47 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] are these nationalists To: chanchal malviya Cc: sarai > So chanchal, nobody ever migrated for better job opprtunities? Now you can chat without downloading messenger. Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 11:21:22 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:21:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] the likes of Kafeel, Sabeel and Haneef... In-Reply-To: <455001.66115.qm@web8415.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <455001.66115.qm@web8415.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801212151j40537954g338a6feb6cf85317@mail.gmail.com> Dear Fatima , I may have missd out , but can you kindly update us if HSC has ever been invovled in terrorist activities , arson or kidnapping ? If it has been , they should be condemned ......if not you are comparing apple with oranges. Pawan On 1/22/08, S.Fatima wrote: > > Dear Radhika Rajen > You just mentioned about "the likes of Kafeel, Sabeel > and Haneef"... What do you have to say say about the > following report: > > New Report Points To Growing Sangh Student Network in > the US > > New Delhi, Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 : The Campaign to > Stop Funding Hate (CSFH) will release its latest > report "UNMISTAKABLY SANGH: THE NATIONAL HSC AND ITS > HINDUTVA AGENDA" on the growth of the Sangh Parivar's > student wing in the USA - the Hindu Students Council > (HSC). The press conference and report release are > scheduled at the Press Club, Raisina Road, at 3 PM > today. The report documents a long and dense trail of > connections between the HSC and the Sangh from 1990 to > the present. Ironically, the HSC exists on US American > university campuses because of the liberal policy of > multiculturalism that allows for diversity of cultures > and tolerance. Yet HSC has promoted divisive and > sectarian speakers such as Ashok Singhal and Sadhvi > Rithambara. Indian American youth many times join the > HSC without an awareness of the "invisible" > connections between HSC and the Sangh. > > The HSC was founded in 1990 as a project of the VHP of > America. In 1993, Ashok Singhal, the then General > Secretary of the VHP declared, "Now, the first project > we have in mind is strengthening the Hindu Student > Council".1 The report Unmistakably Sangh, provides the > first comprehensive documentation of the origins, > methods and practices of the HSC and directly counters > the claims of the HSC that it "has been independently > run since 1993".2 The report uses documents from Sangh > sources - VHPA tax returns, filings with US Patents > Office, Internet domain registry information, archives > of the HSC, and publications of the Sangh Parivar in > North America and elsewhere, to establish that the HSC > > was and remains an arm of the global Sangh Parivar. > > Between 2002 and 2004, two reports, "The Foreign > Exchange of Hate", and "In Bad faith" exposed the > siphoning of funds by the Sangh in the US and UK > respectively. This new report establishes that the > Sangh's interests and activities in the US go far > beyond funding, and that the HSC represents a grooming > space for young Sangh leadership and the entry of the > Sangh ideology into second generation Indian American > spaces. "The Hindu Students Council claims to be > an independent organization with no links to any > Hindutva organization or movement. This is patently > unfair because most of those who join HSC do not know > of the strong ties between HSC and the Sangh," says > Ashwini Rao, a campaign coordinator for CSFH. Several > of the HSC's early recruits on American campuses are > leaders in the Global Sangh operations today. "How > important the HSC is to the Sangh can be seen from the > fact that the HSC built and operated a significant > part of the Sangh's electronic infrastructure out > of a server cluster in California" Raja Swamy, another > CSFH coordinator pointed out. This runs counter to the > policy of multiculturalism that allows organizations > such as HSC on American campuses. > > The latest report is part of CSFH's Truth Out on HSCs3 > Campaign aimed at educating Indian-Americans on the > Sangh Parivar and its operations in the US. For more > information on the press conference write to: > hsctruthout@ gmail.com or call +91-9848470907. > Summary and full versions of the report will be > available at the press conference and online at > www.stopfundinghate .org after 3:00 PM IST on > January 17. > > -end- > > [The complete report 'Uncovering the Global Sangh' is > available at: > > http://stopfundingh ate.org/Unmistak ably_Sangh. pdf > > For Info: Bala Murli N. or Biju Mathew-9848470907 > hsctruthout@ stopfundinghate. org > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:48:16 +0500 > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Add Mobile Alert > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] are these nationalists > > Hi, > every human for better opportunities do migrate for > greener pastures > and for better life, but none other than the islamic > followers prove > to be more fanatic to faith , that is why you will > find the names of > the likes Kafeel, Sabeel and Haneef and now latest is > two more in spain > detained for being subversive with terror acts. ! > You will find a patel or a singh or a south > indian any where in > palnet earth, jokes are about a keralite who sells > chai in moon, but none > have taken their faith to public domain, but practise > it for their > well being, not foisting the faith on the society > they have adopted to > live in. ? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Shivam Vij शिवà¤(R)ॠविजॠ> > Date: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:47 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] are these nationalists > To: chanchal malviya > Cc: sarai > > > So chanchal, nobody ever migrated for better job > opprtunities? > > > > > Now you can chat without downloading messenger. Go to > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From tulunadu at hotmail.com Tue Jan 22 11:25:11 2008 From: tulunadu at hotmail.com (Krishna Chaithanya) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:25:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. In-Reply-To: <806886.50077.qm@web8715.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <806886.50077.qm@web8715.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Ranjit, You are really secular if you condemn all religious beliefs, schools and thought systems (Red books also included - those are also based on a belief system) But I would still say - Grow up baby - the lollipo you are sucking has melted long time ago, please throw the stick out KC > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:25:45 +0000 > From: ranjit_hcu at yahoo.co.in > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > hahaha > poor supreme ..what a work load > give her some domestic lessons toooooo > let the female GOD be emancipated from the burden of creating dharmis and adharmis....and after that take avatars to kill,,,, what a bastard imagination,,kudos... > it's better not to create soemthing if really wanna destroy it > GODs and Goddesss should hold caste meetings like mumbai brahmins and unlearn traditional idiosyncracies > learn from the idiotic caste brahin selves who melt their brain on merit(sorry genetically engineered..so need gene-mapping exercise as well... cultural study people beware..... ) > Gods are u listening....... > > thnks > > > --------------------------------- > Forgot the famous last words? Access your message archive online. Click here. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 12:54:41 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:54:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] what is to be done? Message-ID: <48c2916d0801212324m25c66ab3p5bf16ace5ec90864@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, It is becoming more and more difficult to read the writing on the reader-list. From misogyny, the likes of which I do not recall ever seeing before, to threats of physical violence against women's bodies, to right-wing Hindu vitriol, what is going on? It is actually now painful to have to see 37 responses on a thread which deserves not even one, because people are valiantly trying to talk rationally, reason with, respond to people who should just be told to shut up. I know its very hard to keep quite and let things go, especially when we have exemplars like chanchal and vedavati on this list. But we are all just getting fatigued now with this relentless barrage of invective and hate that the list is constantly subjected to. So now I am asking for solutions. What is to be done?, as Lenin asked many years ago. What is to be done to save the reader-list? Can we have a discussion on this? Clearly responding to them in any rational fashion is not a solution. And I frankly have no interest or hope that anything any of us can say will make any difference. This is not about me refusing to have a conversation, because the fact is, they do not want to have a conversation at all. And i think that is quite clear from the writing on the list in the past two weeks. This is a request to to please stop engaging with them. Lets ignore them, lets not respond to them, lets please just mark all their mails so they go into our collective trash folders, lets talk about other things, anything. They can then keep talking to each other about the wonderful Hindu nation they will build ad nauseum. But we dont have to listen to this. And of course they will claim this as a victory etc etc. How we cant respond to them, how we have nothing to say to their brilliant argumentation. I can already predict the responses to this mail. But I have no trouble saying that they are right. I am limited by my own linguistic incapacity to respond to writing which is so poisonous. And a final qualification about my use of "us" and "them" and any questions regarding othering, insularity, assumption of moral superiority etc etc. I can unabashedly say that I have absolutely no problems creating this binary divide. I have no issues saying that these are people I want to have nothing to do with, as far as I am concerned they are unethical and violent and I dont see why they should have any purchase on my time at all. There are far more interesting things being said and there are interesting people saying them who I would much rather read, than the reams and reams of boring hateful drivel that constantly issue from the likes of chanchal.. If anyone else has any other ideas please lets hear them. And if anyone has forgotten how to make filters so you can trash the trash, here is a link to Vivek's very instructive mail on the matter: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-November/011005.html best Aarti From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Tue Jan 22 13:53:24 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:23:24 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: what non-Muslims say about Quran, Islam In-Reply-To: References: <480145.16815.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear brother Javed, your thoughts are truely learned and illuminative. The issue with islam is that the hold of clergy is sooo strong that the interpretation of holy scriptures can be twisted to demean other humans, terrorise them. This was also the case in the case of manusmrithi, which when interpreted by selfish clergy becomes a tool of exploitation, thus gave rise to caste conundrum and discrimination in faith.Luckily, the hindu way of life has got rid of clergy, who now are required only for some occasional religious events, other times these clergies have other vocations. The very Manusmrithi that is written by a king, ruler was applicable in his time of rule, as a king, he wrote about his society, and compared the society as a whole as a cosmic body, where the learned ones are the brain of that compsit cosmic society, the soldiers of the kingdoms are the shoulders of the society, those in business are the stomach of that composit society, and those who serve all in the society are the servealls of that composit cosmic body of that society. Inter-changeable vocations, such as that of farmer fighting a war at the war times, then resorting to cultivation of land, learned advising king on administration of kingdom and then back unto their vocation made all parts of this cosmic body of society all parts of the body equally important, none inferior or superior, the equation changed with british rule, as opportunity to education got the better of the some insociety, thus learned tilted the balance of superior "castes" and inferior castes thus leading to oprressed castes. Neglected in rule of governance, they sought other avenues like islam, and christian faiths in India. Ofcourse those who embraced christianity were the chamchas of british, getting lands for bible societies, and schools for furthering conversion of neglected lot with appeasement of only saviour. In free India, democracy which should have given good governance to all irrespective of their faith saw the selfish design of the leader who created further divisions in the society with caste faith and regions, which today is seen with regional, caste parties joining together to rule the roost, again giving rise to unequal and unfair rule of laws in administartion of the land mass that is our nation. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Javed Date: Monday, January 21, 2008 8:23 pm Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: what non-Muslims say about Quran, Islam To: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear Chanchal > I will say this again - I have nothing against the Bhagwat Gita - I > respect it at its face value. I agree with whatever you say about the > Gita -so let's not get into that. > > Before I go into Quran, here are a few clarifications: The word Hindu > was not imposed by Muslims - it actually has a longer history. When > Alexander's armies reached what is called Sindhu river, they found it > to be so large that they mistook it for the ocean. And in Greek the > word for ocean is Indus - that's how the river and the region got the > name Indus. The word later evolved into many variances such as Indu, > Sindu, Hindu or Hinduvi. Even during the time of Albeiruni, they did > not refer to the word Hindu as a religion, but the people living > across Indus or Sindhu river. Most Arab travellers/writers have > referred to the entire region as Al-Hind, and not with contempt (as > you claim). Even Prophet Muhammad used to say "I get wafts of > fragrance from the direction of Al-Hind". > > Secondly, I agree that most of the current generation Indian Muslims > are the local converts, but not all converted because of invasion or > force. Almost all of them were low-caste Hindus who were converted to > Islam due to centuries-old persecution in the hands of the > upper-caste/Brahmins. This process still continues - even Christians > missinaries have been more succesful in the tribal areas. > > Let me know come to the Quran. Yes there are some references in it > which talk about fighting with the infidels. But as I said in my > earlier mail, we have to read every word of Quran in the context of > the situation in which it was revealed/ composed in Arabia. Prophet > Muhammad was going through persecution by his fellow tribesmen for > starting a new way of life (all Prophets/sages go through such > persecution), hence Quran refers to resistance against the so-called > infidels. It need not apply to every situation. Although unfortunately > many people try to apply these to the present day situation and lead > to unneccesary troubles for every one. That is highly condemnable. > > Let us look at some of these passages from the Quran - let me quote > them here before you start quoting them. (My apologies to the Sarai > readers for using this platform for purposes which it is not meant > for) > > "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline > towards peace" (The Quran 8:61) > > The "root" of the word "Islam" in Arabic is SALAMA which is the origin > of the words Peace & / or Submission, a submission to God and > peace to > all humanity. It is, thus, no wonder why the salutation in Islam is: > "Al-Salamu Alaikum or Peace on You." In this regard, prophet Mohammad > ordered his fellow Muslims to salute others Muslims or non-Muslims > with peace when he said: "Peace Before Speech" It is a rule in Islam > that during war time, an enemy warrior who pronounces the word peace > is totally immune. > > *No Coercion In Islam > Unlike many other religions where people were offered either > conversion and peace or death, Islam came with the just word of our > creator. In Quran 2:256; God said "Let there be no compulsion in > religion: Truth stands out clear from Error..." There are many other > verses in the Quran that deals with the nature of spreading God's > message. One of my favorites which I keep quoting is Verse 10:99 "If > it had been thy Lord's Will, they would all have believed, all who are > on earth! Wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to > believe!" These verses and many others show how much emphasis Islam > places on the mind of people, Muslims or non-Muslims. > > *Justice & Fairness to Non-Muslims > In This regard, Muslims are governed by the rules that the > relationship with non-Muslims should be based on justice, mutual > respect, cooperation, and communication. The Quran is very explicit > about the justice part of the relationship when God stated in Verse > 60:08 "Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not > for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly > and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just." > > *The Ultimate Justice > Another prominent example that I keep referring to concerning the just > treatment of Islam to non-Muslims; is the fact that while a > husband is > allowed to ask his Muslim wife not to go to the Mosque; he has no > right to ask his wife to go to Church or Synagogue if it happens that > the wife is a Christian or a Jew. > > *Contemporary Counterpart of Jihad > The United Nation's Charter does explicitly discuss the right of the > occupied people to resist their occupiers. The legitimacy of fighting > aggression by means of Jihad or armed struggle is extended not only > from the Islamic teachings but also from the international law and UN > Charter. > > Quran offers a very sophisticated view of peace. In many verses it > promises the believer peace as a final reward for a righteous life ( > 5:16 ). It also describes the house of Islam as the abode of peace > (10:25). At the behest of the Quran, Muslims greet each other every > time they meet, by wishing peace for each other (6:54 ). However the > Quran does not shy from advocating military action in the face of > persecution and religious intolerance. The strongest statement is in > the chapter al-Baqarah (191): > > The Quran says: "And fight them until persecution is no more, and > religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no > hostility except against wrong-doers" (2:193). This verse is very > interesting for it limits retaliation against all except those who are > directly responsible for wrong-doing and also suggests that > persecution could mean religious persecution. Meaning that when the > practice of Islam is prohibited it is a condition that can be deemed > as persecution and therefore fighting this persecution is desired. > This could have implications for conflicts among Muslim states and > between Muslim states and Islamic groups. Where citizens are allowed > to practice their faith freely violence is not an option. > > The Quran makes a profound pronouncement in al-Anfal: Tell those who > disbelieve that if they cease (from persecution of believers) that > which is past will be forgiven them (8:38); this injunction further > reduces the scope for violent response against persecution by granting > amnesty to those who stop persecution. One of the reasons why > tyrannical regimes persist in the Muslim World is due to the fear of > retaliation. Regimes are resisting change and democratization for fear > of being persecuted for past crimes by new regimes. A promise of > general amnesty for past deeds by potential challengers may create an > atmosphere where existing regimes may permit gradual change. > > I would like to have your opinion on my views. > > Javed > > > On 1/21/08, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > > I agree to your point 4... > > In fact, I nearly agree to all your points... > > > > I will take any reference of Quran you want to give... I am > using the only > > published by Kitab Bhawan... > > > > If you are really eager... I will give you reference of Bhagwad > Geeta...> You can take your own time to go through it and start > our discussion... > > > > I am not in a mood to compare.. as I have already read both and > there is no > > comparision possible... > > > > While Quran talks only about Believers and Non-Believers of > Islam... Bhagwad > > Geeta is all about Humanity (no religion)... If a Muslim will > read Bhagwad > > Geeta even with a mind to find Hindutva in it, he will fail... > > So comparision is not possible... > > If you come to more ground reality, Hindu is a word forced on us > by Muslims > > only, to categorize us as Idol Worshippers and people of Sindhu > region...> And moreover, most of the Muslims of this region were > basically Hindus some > > generations in past... Their forefathers are forced Islam > acceptors...> > > And no one can deny this truth, because it is a well known > history that > > around 1000 years ago, it is Muslims who invaded this region and > not that we > > were Muslims... > > So, instead of having Soft Corner for Hindu brothers (the heirs > of same > > forefathers), Muslims are doing the same thing that the invaders > did...> > > They do not have any regard for our Temples.... They do not have > regard of > > Dieties...The fight is forced... You will get many Hindus who > are regard for > > Quran (those who have not read it).. as the basic culture is to > respect> anything that is peace and God... But this is not the > same that is returned > > by Islamic and Christian people... And hence, we are finding > dirty game of > > Conversion in full force... > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Javed > > To: chanchal malviya > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 12:19:07 AM > > Subject: Re: what non-Muslims say about Quran, Islam > > > > Dear Chanchal ji > > I would love to take up this challenge - I don't mind having a > debate> with you. But there are a few very basic things first. > > > > (1) I am not attacking Bhagwat Gita, I have no problem with it, I > > haven't read it, I don't own a copy right now, so I can't argue > for or > > against it any way, nor do I want to condemn it in any way. As a > > matter of fact, I respect it, just as I respect all other books of > > wisdom. Quite simply, I have nothing to say against Bhagwat Gita or > > any other Holy book. So you have already won on that account. > > > > (2) How can I trust you in a discussion when you keep rejecting my > > facts by saying "Gandhi never read Quran", and "forget what people > > say" - how can we forget/ignore things which have been said before > > about Quran. Are you saying that all those philosophers (which I > > quoted) have not read what you have read? Or are you claiming to > know> more about Islam than what all those people have known? > Although many > > of them are Christians but that doesn't mean that they would be more > > sympathatic to Islam. The hostilities between Muslims and Christians > > have been equally terrible. > > > > (3) I would like to know exactly which translation of the Quran are > > you quoting from. Just like you do not approve my references, I may > > have a problems with your sources. So, let us start with that. > Please> let me know which translation of the Quran are you reading. > > > > (4) Please remember, the most important point which I will keep > > referring to is: The Quran, or any other historical/holy book > for that > > matter, was written/compiled at a certain stage in history, at a > > certain geographical location, for a certain cultural context. > We have > > to read/interprete each word of that book in the context of those > > times and that location. If we start applying anything from that > text> to the current situation and intepret today's reality from > the point > > of view of that old text, we are going to run into trouble - our > > interpretations and evaluations will always be problematic. And > I can > > already foresee our running into that quagmire. Some Muslims may say > > that Quran applies to all times and all humans equally, but a > > sociologist/historian may see Quran to be a historical document (my > > apologies if I'm hurting anyone's sentiments). And I would like to > > treat it (at least in this discussion) at a historical document. > > > > (5) I am not in a mood to fight - the way you are writing so > > aggressively. I would love to participate in a discussion if we tone > > down a bit. > > > > If you think that my above points make sense, then let us go > ahead. I > > am ready for the discussion. I am really looking forward to a > > scholarly, mature, non-partisan, and parliamentary discussion with > > you, in good spirits. > > > > Javed > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Tue Jan 22 14:06:34 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:36:34 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] are these nationalists In-Reply-To: <703683.11741.qm@web8410.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <6b79f1a70801180954k43eb2f8cq336c0b3f09411894@mail.gmail.com> <703683.11741.qm@web8410.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Fathima, the loss of loved ones to any human is the same in grief and the loss is too great to be compensated by any amount of wealth. A hindu or muslim when human loses his family, the grief and sorrow is intense. Justice as our leaders say, takes it own course, and by that they mean, they are powerful enough to subvert justice and the loot is defreezed in London to their relative. fanatics gets best lawyer to defend thanks to the riyals that flow in to NGOs to defend him as bombs blasts in trains and in the bomb, unfortunately, as they blast, did not care to see, that those who were dead are muslims, hindus or of any other faith. ?Who takes care of those perpetrators of blasts, who sheltors them and provide them all help ? Atleast all will think now that the toleence is not for violent acts, and will be retaliated with same intensity so that those died in the blasts and the families suffered can see that those who sheltor terrorists are not spared, in a war innocents die as amricans say as COLLATERAL DAMAGE.? ----- Original Message ----- From: "S.Fatima" Date: Saturday, January 19, 2008 8:08 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] are these nationalists To: Pawan Durani Cc: sarai > Do you really think the justice has been served in > Gujarat? And no one's living in concentration camps > any more? > > And this number of Kashmiri pundits killed... you > folks always come up with a different number. > Sometimes one of you says 3000, then 8000, then > 40,000. Please decide it for once. I am not making fun > of this - I know all the pain and suffering someone > gets, but lets make a mockery of things by hurtling > stones at each other. > > > --- Pawan Durani wrote: > > > At least 6 years after the Gujarat riot , which > > started after some > > fundamentalists burnt alive scores of Hindu Pilgrims > > returning from Ayodhya > > , few people were convicted. > > > > Compare it with the case of Kashmiri Pandits , even > > after 18 years , not > > even a single person has been convicted in Kashmir > > for killing of more than > > 3000 Kashmiri pandits . Not to talk of rape and > > arson against this > > community. > > > > For that reason that the state is ruled by > > camouflage Islamic fundamentalist > > and Islamic groups are in majority. > > > > When will the justice be served to Kashmiri Pandits > > ? At least in Modis > > gujarat ....it has been served..... > > > > > > > > On 1/18/08, S.Fatima > > wrote: > > > > > > Friends > > > Look at these two news items for what's being > > > discussed on this list right now: > > > > > > 12 convicted in Bilkis Bano rape case > > > 18 Jan 2008, 1710 hrs IST,PTI > > > MUMBAI: Twelve persons, including a police > > official, > > > were convicted by a special court here on Friday > > in > > > the Bilkis Bano gang-rape case related to the > > > post-Godhra communal violence in Gujarat. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/12_convicted_in_Bilkis_Bano_rape_case/articleshow/2711484.cms > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > > > 'Modi gave us a free run to do whatever we wanted' > > > 26 Oct 2007, 0101 hrs IST,TNN > > > > > > NEW DELHI: "We made a complete rocket launcher > > here... > > > We distributed so many weapons, people were > > shocked. > > > We'd make them here and then test them." > > > > > > Here are some more such shocking 'testimonies': > > > > > > Suresh Richard, an accused in the Naroda Patiya > > > episode in which over 200 Muslims were officially > > > estimated to have been killed, said on camera that > > > Modi visited the locality the same evening, > > February > > > 28, and thanked the perpetrators of the violence > > > saying, "Aap dhanya ho... (You are blessed)." > > > > > > Rajendra Vyas, a senior VHP functionary who was on > > the > > > Sabarmati Express that was set on fire in Godhra, > > > said, "The Muslims had played a one-day match with > > > us... They have given us a target of 60... We have > > to > > > win this match at any cost, so don't stop till you > > > have made 600 runs... Modi gave us a free run to > > do > > > whatever we wanted... The police were with us..." > > > > > > Babu Bajrangi, a Bajrang Dal activist who has been > > in > > > the news for blocking the carnage movie Parzania > > from > > > being screened in the state, revealed that police > > > commissioner P C Pande, who has recently been > > moved > > > out of the DGP's post by the Election Commission, > > had > > > ordered that the 700-800 dead bodies at Naroda > > Patiya > > > be clandestinely picked up and dumped all over > > > Ahmedabad. > > > > > > "The commissioner came that night and said that if > > > there were so many dead at one place, it would > > create > > > trouble for him... After killing them, I felt like > > > Maharana Pratap... We killed at will, turned the > > place > > > into Haldighati." > > > > > > Key witness in the Godhra case, Ranjitsingh Patel, > > a > > > petrol pump employee who deposed that he had sold > > 140 > > > litres of petrol to the accused on the eve of the > > > Sabarmati episode, admits that he and his > > colleague > > > were both paid Rs 50,000 each by Noel Parmar, the > > > chief investigating officer. > > > > > > "Noel saheb gave me fifty thousand, showed me a > > > photograph and said I had to identify him." Two > > BJP > > > members, Murli Mulchandani and Kakul Pathak, who > > > claimed to be eyewitnesses to the Godhra attack > > and > > > identified many of the accused, admit they were > > not > > > even at the station that fateful day. > > > > > > Mulchandani said: "I wasn't at the station, I was > > > sleeping at home. But the police put me among the > > > witnesses." Pathak said, "The police gave all the > > > names. None of the eyewitnesses wrote their > > > statements. The police did." > > > > > > Arvind Pandya, the government's counsel in the > > ongoing > > > proceedings before the Nanavati-Shah Commission > > > probing the carnage, said that the accused had > > nothing > > > to fear from either of the retired judges. > > "Nanavati > > > is a clever man... He wants money... Of the two > > > judges, Shah is intelligent... woh anpe wala hai > > (he > > > is our man)... he is sympathetic to us... Nanavati > > is > > > after money." > > > > > > Bharat Bhatt, a public prosecutor, said that he > > was > > > shielding the Hindu accused even as he was > > supposed to > > > be arguing against them. > > > > > > "I tell all the Hindus not to smile when they see > > > me... not to say a word to me. I tell them that I > > will > > > scold them if they do so... Sometimes I deceive > > > them... I scare them but later show my affections > > > too..." > > > > > > In the Gulbarg Society massacre, accused Madan > > Chawal > > > gives a first-hand account of how former Congress > > MP > > > Ehsan Jafri was hacked limb by limb and burned. He > > > says Jafri offered them money in return for his > > life. > > > "We said yes. When he came out, we took the money > > and > > > pounced on him." > > > > > > > > > Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from > > any browser, without > > > download. Go to > > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php/ > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a > click away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Tue Jan 22 14:11:04 2008 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 08:41:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] the likes of Kafeel, Sabeel and Haneef... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <608444.45418.qm@web8403.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Pawan/Radhika Is there a difference between funding the activities of hate and and actually doing the arsoning and rape? HSC may not have participated in the violence, but they did fund the Gujarat pogorm from their armchairs. The NRIs are probably more religious and communal than even resident Indians (and I include both Hindus and Muslims in it). The beauty of our terminology is that when a Muslim is involved in arson or kidnapping, he is a terrorist. When anyone else does the same, he is a reactionary. Why? We were discussing whether migrating to the west makes some people turn to subversive activities. My question is, if one or two individuals have done it, why should the whole community be held responsible for for it. (and even those one or two individuals have been "suspected", not proven yet). And sorry to disappoint you, but I don't belong to any Jamaat, nor do I support them. S.F. --- radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > Fathima in her patent dislike for Rastriya swayam > Sevak Sangh has failed to see the good in her > Jaamaath.In free India it was sustained campaign > against Sangh that was effective to create a fear > about the Sangh Parivar, that helped the "secular" > parties to indulge in divisive rule of the nation > with creation of vote banks of "communes" such as > the ones of faith, caste and region and the result > is what we see today, minority christians who never > had any role in freedom struggle, sycophants who > were chamchas of british, criminal lawyers who > defended the loots of national exchequer sitting in > powerful positions with single agenda of "secular" > governance of delivering good of democracy to select > group of individuals at the cost of common masses. > > > After assasination of mahatma , a sustained > campaign was made against Sangh that they are > killers of the mahatma, which was beyond all > reasonable doubts cleared by subsequent > investigations. But hate campaign continues even > today and fear is created today also in the minds of > individuals of other faiths that Sangh is against > other faiths. , which is patently false. RSS is > against favours to any one commune and partial > delivery of good of governance to any one group of > individuals at the cost of others in the equitable > and just society. Why special treatments to group of > one faith, caste or region when all individuals need > good of governance to all in the nation. ? > > As to the student wing of Sangh Parivar, all > associations are made of humans with their qualities > of being good or bad, but Sangh has definitely made > effective efforts to improve good qualities such as > self-discipline, patience and compassion to others > in society. But at the same time it has taught > hindus to be united and has effectively united > hindus out of caste conundrum. In no shakhas of RSS > the caste has any role to be participant in building > of good hindu societyy. > > Well, for one , Fathima, you have your Jammaaths, > has any one called these jammaaths communal. ? Pity > of these jammaaath is it is ruled by those who are > fanatics and and mullas who revel in fathwas. ! > As to HSC, can you enlighten us of any incident > where protests , which is a democratic right of any > in society, have been violent or agrresive in > physical actions other than slogans against the > funding of terror ? > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Pawan Durani > Date: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:22 am > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] the likes of Kafeel, > Sabeel and Haneef... > To: "S.Fatima" > Cc: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, chanchal malviya > , reader-list > > > > Dear Fatima , > > > > I may have missd out , but can you kindly update > us if HSC has > > ever been > > invovled in terrorist activities , arson or > kidnapping ? > > > > If it has been , they should be condemned ......if > not you are > > comparingapple with oranges. > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On 1/22/08, S.Fatima > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Radhika Rajen > > > You just mentioned about "the likes of Kafeel, > Sabeel > > > and Haneef"... What do you have to say say about > the > > > following report: > > > > > > New Report Points To Growing Sangh Student > Network in > > > the US > > > > > > New Delhi, Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 : The Campaign > to > > > Stop Funding Hate (CSFH) will release its latest > > > report "UNMISTAKABLY SANGH: THE NATIONAL HSC AND > ITS > > > HINDUTVA AGENDA" on the growth of the Sangh > Parivar's > > > student wing in the USA - the Hindu Students > Council > > > (HSC). The press conference and report release > are > > > scheduled at the Press Club, Raisina Road, at 3 > PM > > > today. The report documents a long and dense > trail of > > > connections between the HSC and the Sangh from > 1990 to > > > the present. Ironically, the HSC exists on US > American > > > university campuses because of the liberal > policy of > > > multiculturalism that allows for diversity of > cultures > > > and tolerance. Yet HSC has promoted divisive and > > > sectarian speakers such as Ashok Singhal and > Sadhvi > > > Rithambara. Indian American youth many times > join the > > > HSC without an awareness of the "invisible" > > > connections between HSC and the Sangh. > > > > > > The HSC was founded in 1990 as a project of the > VHP of > > > America. In 1993, Ashok Singhal, the then > General > > > Secretary of the VHP declared, "Now, the first > project > > > we have in mind is strengthening the Hindu > Student > > > Council".1 The report Unmistakably Sangh, > provides the > > > first comprehensive documentation of the > origins, > > > methods and practices of the HSC and directly > counters > > > the claims of the HSC that it "has been > independently > > > run since 1993".2 The report uses documents from > Sangh > > > sources - VHPA tax returns, filings with US > Patents > > > Office, Internet domain registry information, > archives > > > of the HSC, and publications of the Sangh > Parivar in > > > North America and elsewhere, to establish that > the HSC > > > > > > was and remains an arm of the global Sangh > Parivar. > > > > > > Between 2002 and 2004, two reports, "The Foreign > > > Exchange of Hate", and "In Bad faith" exposed > the > > > siphoning of funds by the Sangh in the US and UK > > > respectively. This new report establishes that > the > > > Sangh's interests and activities in the US go > far > > > beyond funding, and that the HSC represents a > grooming > > > space for young Sangh leadership and the entry > of the > > > Sangh ideology into second generation Indian > American > > > spaces. "The Hindu Students Council claims to be > > > an independent organization with no links to any > > > Hindutva organization or movement. This is > patently > > > unfair because most of those who join HSC do not > know > > > of the strong ties between HSC and the Sangh," > says > > > Ashwini Rao, a campaign coordinator for CSFH. > Several > > > of the HSC's early recruits on American campuses > are > > > leaders in the Global Sangh operations today. > "How > > > important the HSC is to the Sangh can be seen > from the > > > fact that the HSC built and operated a > significant > > > part of the Sangh's electronic infrastructure > out > > > of a server cluster in California" Raja Swamy, > another > > > CSFH coordinator pointed out. This runs counter > to the > > > policy of multiculturalism that allows > organizations > > > such as HSC on American campuses. > > > > > > The latest report is part of CSFH's Truth Out on > HSCs3 > > > Campaign aimed at educating Indian-Americans on > the > === message truncated === Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups From cahen.x at levels9.com Mon Jan 21 04:09:46 2008 From: cahen.x at levels9.com (xavier cahen) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:39:46 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] pourinfos Newsletter / 20-01 to 04-02-2008 Message-ID: <4793CDB2.9050705@levels9.com> pourinfos.org l'actualite du monde de l'art / daily Art news ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >From Sunday, January 20, 2008 through Monday, February 04, 2008 (included) ------------------------------------------------------------------- (mostly in french) This is the first of the year! Pourinfos problems have not yet been solved ... 2008 similar to 2007 early this year, but... So, We hope that this new year will be the year of development for all! Starting with you. yours Xavier For the pourinfos's team @ 001 (20/01/2008) Meetings: Program lectures and films, in January 2008, Centre Wallonie-Bruxelles, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35351-tit--de-conferences-et-films-Janvier-2008- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 002 (20/01/2008) Residence: artists, ArtistNe (s) t, Sinaia, Romania. http://pourinfos.org/art-35360-tit-Residence-artistes-plasticiens- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 003 (20/01/2008) Publication: No. 1 Le Passe Muraille, quarterly, Metalovoice, Corbigny, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35362-tit--N-1-Le-Passe-Muraille-trimestriel- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 004 (20/01/2008) Publication: Numéro 9, Plastir, Transdisciplinary Journal of Human plasticity, PSA Research Group, Palaiseau, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35363-tit--Numero-9-Plastir-Revue 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http://pourinfos.org/art-35368-tit--REVUE-ART-VIF-NUMERO-10-revue-mensuelle- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 009 (20/01/2008) Publication: Night Mewves, Beau LaBute et Untitled, Keegan McHargue, nieves édition, Zurich, Switzerland. http://pourinfos.org/art-35369-tit--Night-Mewves-Beau-LaBute-et-Untitled- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 010 (20/01/2008) Publication: art.es nº 23, art.es international contemporary art, Madrid, Spain. http://pourinfos.org/art-35370-tit--art-es-n-23-art-es-international -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 011 (20/01/2008) Job: développeur informatique et régisseur numérique, Groupedunes, Friche Belle de Mai à Marseille, Marseille, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35371-tit--developpeur-informatique-et-regisseur -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 012 (20/01/2008) Formation: Doctorate in Fine Arts, FINNISH ACADEMY OF FINE ARTS, Helsinki, Finland. http://pourinfos.org/art-35372-tit-Formation-Doctorate-in-Fine-Arts-FINNISH -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 013 (20/01/2008) Various: Film Discovery Program, Colleges and High Schools, Educational Service Centre Pompidou, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35376-tit-Divers-programme-decouvertes-du-Cinema- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 014 (20/01/2008) Various: Program of the Lecture Hall of the Ensba for January 2008,, Ecole nationale superieur des beaux-arts de Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35377-tit-Divers-de-la-Salle-de-Conferences-de -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 015 (20/01/2008) Various: studio for rent, Montreuil, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35379-tit-Divers-Atelier-a-louer-Montreuil- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 016 (20/01/2008) Various: Opening new Galerie Saint Firmin, january 27 2008, Lyon, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35381-tit-Divers-ouverture-de-la-Galerie-Saint -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 017 (20/01/2008) Call: Video-Salon 3, Galerija10m2, Francuski kulturni centar Andre Malraux, Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina. http://pourinfos.org/art-35383-tit--Video-Salon-3-Galerija10m2-Francuski -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 018 (20/01/2008) Call: Artist brief for public art,The Storey, Lancaster, United Kingdom. http://pourinfos.org/art-35406-tit--Artist-brief-for-public-art-The-Storey- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 019 (20/01/2008) Call: 4th edition Pocket Film Festival 2008, le Forum des images, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35409-tit--4e-edition-du-festival-Pocket-Films-2008- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 020 (21/01/2008) Publication: L’ART AU TRAVAIL, French Ethnology Journal No. 2008 / 1, Scientific Officer of the issue: Marie Buscatto, Presses Universitaires de France, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35361-tit--L-ART-AU-TRAVAIL-Revue-Ethnologie -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 021 (21/01/2008) Formation: Workshop : selfportrait by Maflohe Passedouet, from 19 January to 16 February 2008, [ECM] Maison populaire, Montreuil, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35374-tit-Formation-Workshop-de-creation- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 022 (21/01/2008) Job: executive assistant, La cuisine, Nègrepelisse, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35375-tit--assistant-de-direction-La-cuisine- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 023 (21/01/2008) Various: presentation of labo M, a platform of services to artists, Lyon, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35380-tit-Divers-presentation-du-labo-M-une -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 024 (21/01/2008) Call: call for projects, festival Filming the music, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35382-tit--appel-a-projets-festival-Filmer-la -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 025 (21/01/2008) Call: Searching for free software for music, Lomus 2008, AFIM, Talence, Talence, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35384-tit--A-la-recherche-des-logiciels-libres-pour -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 026 (21/01/2008) Call: Topic skin (e), sos-art, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35388-tit--theme-cutane-e-sos-art-Paris- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 027 (21/01/2008) Call: International drawing exhibition 2008 at 00130Gallery, Helsinki, Finland. http://pourinfos.org/art-35400-tit--International-drawing-exhibition-2008-at -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 028 (21/01/2008) Call: 19th edition of FIDMarseille, Marseille, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35408-tit--19eme-edition-du-FIDMarseille-Marseille- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 029 (21/01/2008) Call: festival LGBT, Nîmes, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35410-tit--festival-LGBT-Nimes- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 030 (21/01/2008) Call: The Whole World, tank.tv, London, United Kingdom. http://pourinfos.org/art-35411-tit--The-Whole-World-tank-tv-London-Royaume -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 031 (21/01/2008) Call: Call for papers and projects, Medialab Prado, Madrid, Spain. http://pourinfos.org/art-35412-tit--Call-for-papers-and-projects-Medialab -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 032 (21/01/2008) Call: influences on NO-GO-ZONES, London, United Kingdom. http://pourinfos.org/art-35416-tit--influences-on-NO-GO-ZONES-London- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 033 (21/01/2008) Call: festival sos48, Murcia, Spain. http://pourinfos.org/art-35417-tit--festival-sos48-Murcia- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 034 (22/01/2008) Meetings: Arts/Sciences #3 : Angelo Vermeulen, le 22 janvier 2008, iMAL, Center for Digital Cultures and Technology, Brussels, Belgium. http://pourinfos.org/art-35355-tit--Arts-Sciences-3-Angelo-Vermeulen-le -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 035 (22/01/2008) Meetings: Cycle Conference, Reflection on the 'CRISIS OF THE ENVIRONMENT, "Modernity:" road of a bewilderment. ". The role of science in the contemporary absurdity-Olivier Rey, Tuesday, February 5, 2008, ESPACE KRAJCBERG/Musée du Montparnasse, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35356-tit--Cycle-de-conference-Reflexion-sur-la- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 036 (22/01/2008) Various: ouverture de School Gallery, January 22, 2008, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35378-tit-Divers-ouverture-de-School-Gallery-le-22 -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 037 (22/01/2008) Call: Festival ManifestO., Toulouse, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35391-tit--Festival-ManifestO-Toulouse- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 038 (22/01/2008) Call: Call for the project, Stage 1: "The State of Maquettes," Roger Gallery Tator, Lyon, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35399-tit--Appel-a-projet-Etape-1-A-l-Etat-de -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 039 (22/01/2008) Call: The competition ARTE 2.0 VOCENTO, LaAgencia, exhibiting art online, Madrid, Spain. http://pourinfos.org/art-35407-tit--The-competition-ARTE-2-0-VOCENTO- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 040 (22/01/2008) Call: Call for artists, Pulse Fringe Festival 2008, Edinburgh, United Kingdom. http://pourinfos.org/art-35413-tit--Call-for-artists-Pulse-Fringe-Festival -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 042 (23/01/2008) Meetings: Art seminar in vivo 2008> Interview with Thomas Clerc, Wednesday, January 23, 2008, Centre d’art Mira Phalaina, Montreuil, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35359-tit--seminaire-Art-in-vivo-2008-Rencontre -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 043 (23/01/2008) Call: Call for Public Art Proposals, Zooart 2008, Cuneo, Italy. http://pourinfos.org/art-35385-tit-Appel-a-Candidature-Call-for-Public-Art -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 044 (23/01/2008) Call: phono-photographies, Trace Label, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35386-tit--phono-photographies-Trace-Label- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 045 (23/01/2008) Call: hôtelF1 Accor Group, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35387-tit--hotelF1-du-groupe-Accor-Paris- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 046 (23/01/2008) Call: festival Forêt creative, Saint Paulet de Caisson, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35389-tit--festival-Foret-creative-Saint-Paulet-de -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 047 (23/01/2008) Call: wanted artists, Agence Lili Nelson, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35393-tit--Recherche-d-artistes-Agence-Lili-Nelson- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 048 (23/01/2008) Call: Anonymous Drawings N° 8, Berlin, Germany. http://pourinfos.org/art-35395-tit--Anonymous-Drawings-N-8-Berlin- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 050 (23/01/2008) Call: films courts - Call for submission, short films, Brigade des Images, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35401-tit-s-films-courts-Call-for-submission- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 051 (23/01/2008) Residency: Symposium about creation, Theme of Chantiers d'Arts 2008: "Animal", Cunlhat, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35402-tit--Symposium-de-creation-plastique-Theme -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 052 (23/01/2008) Call: for projects, Belluard Bollwerk International (BBI), Fribourg, Switzerland. http://pourinfos.org/art-35405-tit--Apel-a-projets-Le-Belluard-Bollwerk -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 053 (23/01/2008) Call: ARTECH 2008, 4TH INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON DIGITAL ARTS, Portuguese Catholic University - Porto, Portugal. http://pourinfos.org/art-35415-tit--ARTECH-2008-4TH-INTERNATIONAL-CONFERENCE -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 054 (24/01/2008) Call: Call for No. 1: "Constraints" magazine 2.0.1., Rennes, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35390-tit--Appel-a-contribution-N-1-Contraintes -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 055 (24/01/2008) Call: _Degradarte, on line, Italiy. http://pourinfos.org/art-35392-tit--Degradarte-on-line- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 056 (24/01/2008) Call: Call for projects, Espace culturel de Chaillol, Saint-Bonnet en Champsaur, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35404-tit--Appel-a-projet-Espace-culturel-de -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 057 (25/01/2008) Meetings: art espace public, cycle of ten meetings and debates, from January 25 to March 28, 2008, 1 University of Paris Sorbonne, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35352-tit--art-espace-public-cycle-de-dix -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 058 (25/01/2008) Résidency: A.I.R. International Artists Residencies, residency/FilmFest -2008, Budapest, Hungary. http://pourinfos.org/art-35394-tit-Residence-A-I-R-International-Artists -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 059 (25/01/2008) Call: NanoArt 2007 INTERNATIONAL ONLINE COMPETITION, vote for your favorite NanoArt work, on line, California, Usa. http://pourinfos.org/art-35397-tit--NanoArt-2007-INTERNATIONAL-ONLINE -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 060 (26/01/2008) Call: Call for entries for the international symposium "From the avant-garde, avant-garde: borders, movements" from 4 to 6 December 2008, the University of Nice - Sophia Antipolis, Nice, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35398-tit--Appel-a-proposition-pour-le-colloque -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 061 (01/02/2008) Meetings: Colloque KLONARIS / THOMADAKI, flimaker, visual artist, Friday, 1 February and Saturday, February 2, 2008, Institut National d'Histoire de l'Art, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35358-tit--Colloque-KLONARIS-THOMADAKI-cineastes- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 062 (04/02/2008) Performance Poetry-Contemporary Music, "Eboueurs Célestes", Monday, February 4, 2008, Toulouse University Mirail, Toulouse, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35353-tit--Poesie-Musique-Contemporaine-Les -- XAVIER CAHEN -------------- cahen.x at levels9.com Paris France http://www.levels9.com _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From A.Khanna at sms.ed.ac.uk Tue Jan 22 16:19:42 2008 From: A.Khanna at sms.ed.ac.uk (A Khanna) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:49:42 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome In-Reply-To: References: <816418.8207.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080122104942.iwaxspxekgksw4ko@www.sms.ed.ac.uk> Quoting Krishna Chaithanya : With words, slogans and force you cant make people feel a nation. ............ out of curiousity, how do you make people feel a nation? akshay > > > KC > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:29:00 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > I again say.. I do not hate them... > My language might be tough... > > But I want them to become Indian Muslim rather then Islamic Muslim... > I want them to join our slogan of 'Bharat mata ki Jai'.. which > Bukhari and the whole mulim community have rejected... > I want them to join a road show against terrorism.. > > I never wanted them to tell me Quran... I never wanted them to kill > us when we are worshipping our dieties in temples in the name of > Idolators as said in Quran.. > I want them to come out of those killing attitude and join the > loving attitude... > > But I am finding that Hindus are the first enemy of Hindus... > They have forgotten to live... They are already dead (this is what > Lord Krishna exactly meant in 11th chapter when he showed Arjuna > that they have already been killed)... and hence it is easy for > Islam or Christianity to easily do thousands of Conversion... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Krishna Chaithanya > To: chanchal malviya > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:42:49 AM > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > > > Glad to know that the supreme being has chosen you to save the nation > Every religious fundamentalist believes that he is the chosen one > and his religion is the only path > May the god bless you > > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:20:59 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com > > > > > > You are not to decide the right path... > You are not among ones who can save the nation... > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Krishna Chaithanya > To: chanchal malviya > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:43:30 PM > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > > > You are the best human I've ever come across. > I can feel your energy,very vinrant, unfortunately it has not found > the right path > > God bless you > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:37:00 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com > > > > > > You first sacrifice your house to a Muslim.. > And then we will think about Kashmir... > You are an Idiot... and an Anti-National... Absolutely no doubt.. > > People like you will create many Kashmirs.. and get every Hindu killed... > It is better you convert... > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Krishna Chaithanya > To: chanchal malviya > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:37:51 PM > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > > I'v no problem accepting Kashmir as a country, why not the Govt. > accept it? why should we sacrifice our soldiers there? How much > resources we have wasted on Kashmir all these years? how many people > we'v got killed? > Is there any meaning to it. > > Isn't it stupid- instead of holding what is with us tight, we > focused a lot on Kashmir and allowed the fire to spread to other > regions. > > KC > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:47:47 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com > > > > > > > Yes.. I mean it... > Because Kashmir is virtually a country now.. > > It is army of India that is still holding it.. > And Muslims don't want that.. > > This is the reason, you find so much of Muslims shouting on Army.. > > This is the truth... Accept or Reject is your choice... > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Krishna Chaithanya > To: chanchal malviya > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:10:18 PM > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > > > I can start quoting dates with killing > counts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... > Correct yourself please... > You'v said countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and KASHMIR....! > > >> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:21:53 -0800 >> From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com >> To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com; kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome >> >> Don't mislead... >> The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to >> India (all HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India... (I will get >> the Video uploaded on UTube on this, as this was shown by an >> external news channel)... and you say, women are raped in India.. >> >> You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of >> having more than one wife.. there is no freedom to women to report >> rapes... who will show what happens in your community... > The Quran says them all... and I have all senteces of Quran right > with me.... Believe me, all awaken Hindus are now reading Quran... > they all know what is there in that book... >> So, Muslims cannot fool the world any more that Quran teaches >> Peace... and Islam is a peaceful religion... >> >> Modi is a simple indication, what Hindus are now thinking... It is >> Muslims who have to think now... they have created this world a >> land of havoc... Everywhere they are simply engaged in Killing.... >> They even kill each other, as in Iraq and now in Pakistan... And >> they are seriously killing Hindus like anything.... If this is >> again refuted... I can start quoting dates with killing counts in >> countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... >> >> I don't know, what is in their head.... How do they get so easily >> terrorised... What do they get in believing that killign an >> Idolator is a work of God... It is stupid... and yet they all > are keeping this faith in their head.... >> they all are not engaged in killing, but they all are engaged in >> supporting this act... >> Quran says, forgive the Idolators only if they accept Islam... and >> Quran says this right from second Surah to the last one... >> >> Why? Our religion don't teach about this variance at all... Geeta >> teaches howto unite, how to live with respective with each other, >> how to love, how to perform duty... Why can't you teach peace... >> >> Why can't you understand that Nature has created every creature (of >> all species) unique and different.. Nature has produced variance >> so that creatures can live with respect to each other... A specie >> is not naturally allowed to kill the same specie.. except for >> humans.. where humans are killing humans... >> >> Let India live with its heritage of Hindutva... Thousands of years >> of killing and enforcement have failed to eliminate Hindus... Another > thousand will also fail... Because nature will keep the variance > alive... But the attempt of Islam and christianity would only > produce killing of innocent people... >> >> Hindus would kill muslims only during riots or war... But Muslim >> would kill always for religious reasons... >> Please stop talking all these things.. >> Please talk peace... >> Please talk how to proliferate the nation.. >> Please suggest how to remove the Quranic Islam and produce Indian Islam... >> Please stop attacking Hindus, Modi and Army... >> Please, please, please.... >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Zainab Bawa >> To: Kshmendra Kaul ; sarai list >> >> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 3:42:08 PM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome >> >> Dear > Kshmendra and all your supporters and back slappers, >> >> You can easily pinpoint Oishik for his outburst of anger and frustration and >> then state that because he (mis)directed his anger at Vedavati and company, >> he has no right to talk about the abuse of Manipuri women at the hands of >> the Indian state appointed soldiers there. How about for a moment >> questioning Lady Chanchal and her remarks and for once again coming back to >> the issue that Oishik has tried to raise - the rape of women at the hands of >> state appointed army and the manifestations of the state's violence at >> women? >> >> Chanchal diverted the topic by once again going back to her pet peeve of >> Islam and Muslim and her hang ups of some frozen history that she loves to >> imagine. I pointed out to her that it has nothing to do with Hindu-Muslim >> populations and Hindu-Muslim army soldiers but a > larger question and concern >> about women being direct targets of state violence (with that state violence >> and injustice also being responsible for the rise of all kinds of other >> movements to combat it). I then pointed to Chanchal how I have also been >> eve-teased in Srinagar by soldiers. No, they did not come to ask me whether >> I was Hindu or Muslim but made lewd remarks simply because I was woman and >> bear breasts and bosom on my person. I also want to clarify that it not >> about the soldiers themselves, but about the institutions and the systems >> that get perpetrated within the structure of the conflict and occupation of >> space. Chanchal immediately retorted saying that because I happen to be >> "Muslim", I am likely to complain about being eve teased. *What kind of a >> patriarchal and discriminatory remark is this?* This does not come to your >> attention but Oishik's > suggestion of anal stimulation immediately strikes >> you and you make claims about the mothers and sisters of the world. You >> don't recognize that we have turned this into a battle of whose position is >> right and backslapping. In our egostical positions and pride and victimized >> states, as Gowhar and others have rightly pointed out, we fail to see who >> suffers - children who are beaten by the army, women who are serially raped >> and butchered, men whose psyches have been muted by the violences, families >> that continue to suffer the losses of their loved ones, etc. and this is not >> restricted to Kashmir, but to violence all over the world. But perhaps, you >> would brush this aside by exclaiming that these are standard complaints of >> Muslims. And then you cleverly subvert every issue, incidence and event to >> Kashmir and to Muslims. Clever you! >> >> On this note, having > personally known Oishik, I vouch for him as a very >> sincere, honest and well-meaning person. One remark of anger and frustration >> does not define a person's overall political commitments and thoughts. And >> this would apply to my not boxing either of you as good or bad people on the >> basis of your positions. >> >> Best, >> >> Zainab >> >> *P.S. Any immediate retort/s to this email will be and ought to be >> categorically ignored. * >> >> >> On Jan 20, 2008 3:05 PM, wrote: >> >> > Well said, with lal salaaam. >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: Kshmendra Kaul >> > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:48 pm >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome >> > To: sarai list >> > >> > > > Oishik >> > > >> > > 1. Thank you for the suggestion directed to me. It does not >> > > interest me. I too have some suggestions for you. >> > > >> > > 2. You seem to be obsessed with what you have experienced and >> > > suggested. You see a lot of merit in it. >> > > >> > > 3. Charitable soul that you are, you must have promoted it to >> > > your circle of family and friends. >> > > >> > > 4. OISHIT, since there might be others of your kind who might >> > > not find your suggestions/language obscene and crude, you must >> > > convince them about it. You must provide references for them on >> > > the efficacy of your suggestion. >> > > >> > > 5. So OISHIT, I presume we will get testimonials from your >> > > mother, sisters (if any), daughters (if any) and > others to whom >> > > you must have recommended the stimulation. They certainly would >> > > have respected your suggestion. Maybe you even helped them in the >> > > processes in the course of convincing them that your suggestion on >> > > means to experience pleasure is not abuse. You must mention the >> > > role played by you. >> > > >> > > >> > > Kshmendra Kaul >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: >> > > Kshmendra: >> > > >> > > That was not meant to be an abuse at all... it was meant to >> > > suggest a means to experience anal stimulation that can be >> > > orgasmic... I have tried it... so suggested that Vedavati do the >> > > same... you could also do the same... actually all the HINDUS who >> > > > are obsessing about nationalism on this listserv should do the >> > > same... they'll realise that there are better and more enjoyable -- >> > > and of course more useful things in life to do than spew virulent >> > > intolerance. Suggesting means to experience pleasure is not abuse, >> > > I'm sure you'll agree. >> > > >> > > And I am overwhelmed with the kind of response my comments have >> > > attracted -- that's the way to keep the Hindu bullshitters engaged >> > > I can clearly see. >> > > >> > > If you find this mail to be crude and obscene as well -- I >> > > would've made my point. >> > > >> > > Cheers... >> > > >> > > Oishik >> > > >> > > On Jan 19, 2008 3:16 AM, Kshmendra Kaul >> > > wrote: >> > > It is > ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to >> > > the notice of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against >> > > abuse directed at them. >> > > >> > > Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI) >> > > was the one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and >> > > obscene manner. >> > > >> > > Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would >> > > have to say to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights" >> > > (sic). >> > > >> > > Kshmendra Kaul >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > --------------------------------- >> > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. >> > > Try it now. >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive: >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > OISHIK SIRCAR >> > > >> > > Scholar in Women's Rights >> > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto >> > > >> > > 60 Harbord Street >> > > Room 016 B >> > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 >> > > > >> > > oishiksircar at gmail.com >> > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca >> > > >> > > 416.876.7926 >> > > >> > > >> > > --------------------------------- >> > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. >> > > Try it now. >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> > > list >> > > List archive: >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in > the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> ____________________________________________________________________________________ >> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. >> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Fly HYD-BLR for Rs.499 Log on to MakeMyTrip! Check it out! > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try it now. > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > It's about getting married. Click here! Try it! > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > _________________________________________________________________ > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. From chintichinti at yahoo.com Tue Jan 22 16:27:16 2008 From: chintichinti at yahoo.com (chintan gohil) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 02:57:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Urbanbody: Dharavi, Mumbai...Urban design studio...Help needed Message-ID: <679757.86525.qm@web50510.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hello We are currently looking for volunteers/NGOs/Academics/Researchers/Institutions who have interest and would be willing to contribute to the two month 'urbanbody' studio organised by Spacelab research laboratory for urbanism/city from Technical University of Delft, the Netherlands with a special focus on Dharavi, mumbai. Please have a look at spacelab website for more information on the laboratory : http://www.spacelab.tudelft.nl/ While the draft focus is still being formulated with the help of contributors from UCL London and TU Delft, here are some of the aims and key themes that the studio aims to explore. This studio provides a base for the students to further explore the notion of 'emmergence' and informality within their final projects, thus urbanbody remains at one level an exercise of active observation, but on the other level it intends to provide the observations/tools and lessons learnt to the people (inhabitants/activists/NGOs/governmental bodies) who can use them to intervene and improve the quality and living conditions etc for the dwellers of Dharavi. Possible themes: Spatial Economy: the interaction of the informal and formal...'slum' and the city Idea of migration and floating population within cities Role of women in the informal economy Notion of Emmergence The studio (20 students and 4-5 associate professors/collaborators) will spend about 3 weeks in india (first 3 weeks of march) engaging in studies and visits as well as workshops with inhabitants of dharavi/activists/NGOs/Thinkers and Academics. If any of the members on the list would like to help or have any suggestions or are in contact with any NGOs or individuals who could contribute to the studio, please do write to me. We are also looking for schools of architecture in bombay to participate in the studio thus we can begin to exchange knowledge with the local students if Thank you in advance Chintan Gohil ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Tue Jan 22 16:31:06 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:01:06 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] the likes of Kafeel, Sabeel and Haneef... In-Reply-To: <608444.45418.qm@web8403.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <608444.45418.qm@web8403.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Fatima, again some hate for the group of individuals in student community just because they are not under banner of NSUI or DYSI ? Can you cite one instance of funding terror by HSC or any student union of Sangh parivar for the progoms as you say ? NRIs of hindu origin if they contribute to Sangh parivar, it becomes funds for terror ? What is the basis of this assumption of false propaganda. ? As I have already told you, some do not represent the whole of community as you have rightly pointed out, just as all muslims are not terrorists, but all terrorists are muslims, as seen by society by now. Society as a whole has big role in stopping the fanatic elements in society, otherwise the results are obivious, in actions and reactions as seen in Gujarath. In free India, every time the riots broke, it was the "secular" parties which rewarded the rioters with plush MP or MLA tickets and thus goon shouting brigades were built, to force the silent majority in any faith to comply with their wishes to put the rowdy in legislation forum. In Gujarath, it must be remembered that administration did not hesitate to fire bullets at rioters irrespective whether they were of hindu or muslim faith. But our "secular" media with sycophants in as anchors have only exploited with SMS and debate revenues to enrich themselves with bank rolls. Is there any justification for the visual media to show again and again the gujarath riots every time the elections are around the corner by the reward and award winning "journalists" crooning for "secular" parties when the truth of the matter is these very same "secular" parties were the fomentors of trouble between communities ? By the way, I have read one of the mail by Sarai adfmn regarding many mails in response which says to ignore the mails from ids who post 4-5 mails and clog the mailbox, may be sarai does not want face the truth to retain its "secular" image. ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "S.Fatima" Date: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 2:11 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] the likes of Kafeel, Sabeel and Haneef... To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, Pawan Durani Cc: "S.Fatima" , chanchal malviya , reader-list > Dear Pawan/Radhika > Is there a difference between funding the activities > of hate and and actually doing the arsoning and rape? > HSC may not have participated in the violence, but > they did fund the Gujarat pogorm from their armchairs. > The NRIs are probably more religious and communal than > even resident Indians (and I include both Hindus and > Muslims in it). > > The beauty of our terminology is that when a Muslim is > involved in arson or kidnapping, he is a terrorist. > When anyone else does the same, he is a reactionary. > Why? > > We were discussing whether migrating to the west makes > some people turn to subversive activities. My question > is, if one or two individuals have done it, why should > the whole community be held responsible for for it. > (and even those one or two individuals have been > "suspected", not proven yet). And sorry to disappoint > you, but I don't belong to any Jamaat, nor do I > support them. > > S.F. > > > --- radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > > Fathima in her patent dislike for Rastriya swayam > > Sevak Sangh has failed to see the good in her > > Jaamaath.In free India it was sustained campaign > > against Sangh that was effective to create a fear > > about the Sangh Parivar, that helped the "secular" > > parties to indulge in divisive rule of the nation > > with creation of vote banks of "communes" such as > > the ones of faith, caste and region and the result > > is what we see today, minority christians who never > > had any role in freedom struggle, sycophants who > > were chamchas of british, criminal lawyers who > > defended the loots of national exchequer sitting in > > powerful positions with single agenda of "secular" > > governance of delivering good of democracy to select > > group of individuals at the cost of common masses. > > > > > > After assasination of mahatma , a sustained > > campaign was made against Sangh that they are > > killers of the mahatma, which was beyond all > > reasonable doubts cleared by subsequent > > investigations. But hate campaign continues even > > today and fear is created today also in the minds of > > individuals of other faiths that Sangh is against > > other faiths. , which is patently false. RSS is > > against favours to any one commune and partial > > delivery of good of governance to any one group of > > individuals at the cost of others in the equitable > > and just society. Why special treatments to group of > > one faith, caste or region when all individuals need > > good of governance to all in the nation. ? > > > > As to the student wing of Sangh Parivar, all > > associations are made of humans with their qualities > > of being good or bad, but Sangh has definitely made > > effective efforts to improve good qualities such as > > self-discipline, patience and compassion to others > > in society. But at the same time it has taught > > hindus to be united and has effectively united > > hindus out of caste conundrum. In no shakhas of RSS > > the caste has any role to be participant in building > > of good hindu societyy. > > > > Well, for one , Fathima, you have your Jammaaths, > > has any one called these jammaaths communal. ? Pity > > of these jammaaath is it is ruled by those who are > > fanatics and and mullas who revel in fathwas. ! > > As to HSC, can you enlighten us of any incident > > where protests , which is a democratic right of any > > in society, have been violent or agrresive in > > physical actions other than slogans against the > > funding of terror ? > > > > Regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Pawan Durani > > Date: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:22 am > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] the likes of Kafeel, > > Sabeel and Haneef... > > To: "S.Fatima" > > Cc: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, chanchal malviya > > , reader-list > > > > > > > Dear Fatima , > > > > > > I may have missd out , but can you kindly update > > us if HSC has > > > ever been > > > invovled in terrorist activities , arson or > > kidnapping ? > > > > > > If it has been , they should be condemned ......if > > not you are > > > comparingapple with oranges. > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > On 1/22/08, S.Fatima > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Radhika Rajen > > > > You just mentioned about "the likes of Kafeel, > > Sabeel > > > > and Haneef"... What do you have to say say about > > the > > > > following report: > > > > > > > > New Report Points To Growing Sangh Student > > Network in > > > > the US > > > > > > > > New Delhi, Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 : The Campaign > > to > > > > Stop Funding Hate (CSFH) will release its latest > > > > report "UNMISTAKABLY SANGH: THE NATIONAL HSC AND > > ITS > > > > HINDUTVA AGENDA" on the growth of the Sangh > > Parivar's > > > > student wing in the USA - the Hindu Students > > Council > > > > (HSC). The press conference and report release > > are > > > > scheduled at the Press Club, Raisina Road, at 3 > > PM > > > > today. The report documents a long and dense > > trail of > > > > connections between the HSC and the Sangh from > > 1990 to > > > > the present. Ironically, the HSC exists on US > > American > > > > university campuses because of the liberal > > policy of > > > > multiculturalism that allows for diversity of > > cultures > > > > and tolerance. Yet HSC has promoted divisive and > > > > sectarian speakers such as Ashok Singhal and > > Sadhvi > > > > Rithambara. Indian American youth many times > > join the > > > > HSC without an awareness of the "invisible" > > > > connections between HSC and the Sangh. > > > > > > > > The HSC was founded in 1990 as a project of the > > VHP of > > > > America. In 1993, Ashok Singhal, the then > > General > > > > Secretary of the VHP declared, "Now, the first > > project > > > > we have in mind is strengthening the Hindu > > Student > > > > Council".1 The report Unmistakably Sangh, > > provides the > > > > first comprehensive documentation of the > > origins, > > > > methods and practices of the HSC and directly > > counters > > > > the claims of the HSC that it "has been > > independently > > > > run since 1993".2 The report uses documents from > > Sangh > > > > sources - VHPA tax returns, filings with US > > Patents > > > > Office, Internet domain registry information, > > archives > > > > of the HSC, and publications of the Sangh > > Parivar in > > > > North America and elsewhere, to establish that > > the HSC > > > > > > > > was and remains an arm of the global Sangh > > Parivar. > > > > > > > > Between 2002 and 2004, two reports, "The Foreign > > > > Exchange of Hate", and "In Bad faith" exposed > > the > > > > siphoning of funds by the Sangh in the US and UK > > > > respectively. This new report establishes that > > the > > > > Sangh's interests and activities in the US go > > far > > > > beyond funding, and that the HSC represents a > > grooming > > > > space for young Sangh leadership and the entry > > of the > > > > Sangh ideology into second generation Indian > > American > > > > spaces. "The Hindu Students Council claims to be > > > > an independent organization with no links to any > > > > Hindutva organization or movement. This is > > patently > > > > unfair because most of those who join HSC do not > > know > > > > of the strong ties between HSC and the Sangh," > > says > > > > Ashwini Rao, a campaign coordinator for CSFH. > > Several > > > > of the HSC's early recruits on American campuses > > are > > > > leaders in the Global Sangh operations today. > > "How > > > > important the HSC is to the Sangh can be seen > > from the > > > > fact that the HSC built and operated a > > significant > > > > part of the Sangh's electronic infrastructure > > out > > > > of a server cluster in California" Raja Swamy, > > another > > > > CSFH coordinator pointed out. This runs counter > > to the > > > > policy of multiculturalism that allows > > organizations > > > > such as HSC on American campuses. > > > > > > > > The latest report is part of CSFH's Truth Out on > > HSCs3 > > > > Campaign aimed at educating Indian-Americans on > > the > > > === message truncated === > > > > Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go to > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups > From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Tue Jan 22 16:38:37 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:08:37 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] are these nationalists In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30801220117m957bbcj2f9c11655703f635@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30801220117m957bbcj2f9c11655703f635@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This is favourite propaganda work for division of society, if that is not so, how do you explain the violence that breaks out regularly between muslims during the moharram procession. ? Christians like divided populace, now it is the turn of islam and its followers, as they are divided as sunnis,shias, wahabis, bohras etc. Any society with different faiths if united it is good for that society, divided populace is easy to manipulate for the power seekers as mirs and jaichands are there in every faith. ----- Original Message ----- From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् Date: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 2:48 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] are these nationalists To: "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" Cc: anoop kumar , reader-list at sarai.net > > my friend those who go out of the nation do not carry caste > with them, > > they carry the love for the mitti of the nation with them > > > British Hindus divided by caste > > By Naresh Puri, BBC News, 21 December 2007 > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7156139.stm > > A leading British Asian organisation is warning that men, women and > children are being abused, attacked and spat at, because they are low > caste Hindus regarded as impure and untouchable. > > They are the victims of the 2,000-year-old Indian caste system which > activists say is flourishing on the streets of Britain, even > though it > is banned in India. > > [...] > > "We have children at school who are being bullied and mocked because > they're from so-called low castes, we have discrimination in the > workplace, where some Asians refuse to work with the low castes, and > we even have violence". > > Asian rapper Shiv Gharu has suffered since childhood because of > his caste. > > "When I was a child, I was taunted and abused and called slave boy and > untouchable", he said. > > "I was involved with a woman who was from a higher caste and her > father would not even let me in their house. > > "I was not accepted and when people from the higher castes found out > about my relationship, I was beaten up, all because I'm from a low > caste". > > [...] > > > > > On 1/21/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > HA HA HA, > > > > > > my friend those who go out of the nation do not carry caste > with them, they carry the love for the mitti of the nation with > them, at the first level of meeting another fellow indian in the > other adopted land they do not worry about the caste but are happy > to meet another from their nation.The feel of being from the same > nation is much stronger, ask any one who work in gulf nations, he > might have born in any caste, it is the vocation and the job that > he does there gives him his rozi roti and power to help his family > and members of his family to a better life. > > Or to that matter ask the professionals like doctors or > engineers or to that matter drivers of a cab, he is happy to have > you talk with him in his life when he sees you there in his > adopted nation. Regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: anoop kumar > > Date: Monday, January 21, 2008 5:48 pm > > Subject: Re: are these nationalists > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Cc: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > > > haahhaaha > > > > > > right ! caste-hindus dont take their religion wherever they go.... > > > there is > > > no need for them. they take their caste because this where their > > > 'faith'belong to > > > > > > anoop > From tulunadu at hotmail.com Tue Jan 22 16:43:25 2008 From: tulunadu at hotmail.com (Krishna Chaithanya) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:43:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome In-Reply-To: <20080122104942.iwaxspxekgksw4ko@www.sms.ed.ac.uk> References: <816418.8207.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080122104942.iwaxspxekgksw4ko@www.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: When you have the environment to feel a nation , you'll not have the need for a nation. If you hold the sword or gun on someones neck and force him to feel the nation, one day he will feel your balls and squeez it KC > Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:49:42 +0000 > From: A.Khanna at sms.ed.ac.uk > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com > CC: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > Quoting Krishna Chaithanya : > > With words, slogans and force you cant make people feel a > nation. > > > > ............ > out of curiousity, how do you make people feel a nation? > > akshay > > > > > > > KC > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:29:00 -0800 > > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > > I again say.. I do not hate them... > > My language might be tough... > > > > But I want them to become Indian Muslim rather then Islamic Muslim... > > I want them to join our slogan of 'Bharat mata ki Jai'.. which > > Bukhari and the whole mulim community have rejected... > > I want them to join a road show against terrorism.. > > > > I never wanted them to tell me Quran... I never wanted them to kill > > us when we are worshipping our dieties in temples in the name of > > Idolators as said in Quran.. > > I want them to come out of those killing attitude and join the > > loving attitude... > > > > But I am finding that Hindus are the first enemy of Hindus... > > They have forgotten to live... They are already dead (this is what > > Lord Krishna exactly meant in 11th chapter when he showed Arjuna > > that they have already been killed)... and hence it is easy for > > Islam or Christianity to easily do thousands of Conversion... > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Krishna Chaithanya > > To: chanchal malviya > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:42:49 AM > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > > > > > > > Glad to know that the supreme being has chosen you to save the nation > > Every religious fundamentalist believes that he is the chosen one > > and his religion is the only path > > May the god bless you > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:20:59 -0800 > > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > You are not to decide the right path... > > You are not among ones who can save the nation... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Krishna Chaithanya > > To: chanchal malviya > > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:43:30 PM > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > > > > > > > You are the best human I've ever come across. > > I can feel your energy,very vinrant, unfortunately it has not found > > the right path > > > > God bless you > > > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:37:00 -0800 > > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > You first sacrifice your house to a Muslim.. > > And then we will think about Kashmir... > > You are an Idiot... and an Anti-National... Absolutely no doubt.. > > > > People like you will create many Kashmirs.. and get every Hindu killed... > > It is better you convert... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Krishna Chaithanya > > To: chanchal malviya > > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:37:51 PM > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > > > > > I'v no problem accepting Kashmir as a country, why not the Govt. > > accept it? why should we sacrifice our soldiers there? How much > > resources we have wasted on Kashmir all these years? how many people > > we'v got killed? > > Is there any meaning to it. > > > > Isn't it stupid- instead of holding what is with us tight, we > > focused a lot on Kashmir and allowed the fire to spread to other > > regions. > > > > KC > > > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:47:47 -0800 > > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > To: tulunadu at hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes.. I mean it... > > Because Kashmir is virtually a country now.. > > > > It is army of India that is still holding it.. > > And Muslims don't want that.. > > > > This is the reason, you find so much of Muslims shouting on Army.. > > > > This is the truth... Accept or Reject is your choice... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Krishna Chaithanya > > To: chanchal malviya > > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:10:18 PM > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > > > > > > > I can start quoting dates with killing > > counts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... > > Correct yourself please... > > You'v said countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and KASHMIR....! > > > > > >> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:21:53 -0800 > >> From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > >> To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com; kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > >> > >> Don't mislead... > >> The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to > >> India (all HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India... (I will get > >> the Video uploaded on UTube on this, as this was shown by an > >> external news channel)... and you say, women are raped in India.. > >> > >> You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of > >> having more than one wife.. there is no freedom to women to report > >> rapes... who will show what happens in your community... > > The Quran says them all... and I have all senteces of Quran right > > with me.... Believe me, all awaken Hindus are now reading Quran... > > they all know what is there in that book... > >> So, Muslims cannot fool the world any more that Quran teaches > >> Peace... and Islam is a peaceful religion... > >> > >> Modi is a simple indication, what Hindus are now thinking... It is > >> Muslims who have to think now... they have created this world a > >> land of havoc... Everywhere they are simply engaged in Killing.... > >> They even kill each other, as in Iraq and now in Pakistan... And > >> they are seriously killing Hindus like anything.... If this is > >> again refuted... I can start quoting dates with killing counts in > >> countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... > >> > >> I don't know, what is in their head.... How do they get so easily > >> terrorised... What do they get in believing that killign an > >> Idolator is a work of God... It is stupid... and yet they all > > are keeping this faith in their head.... > >> they all are not engaged in killing, but they all are engaged in > >> supporting this act... > >> Quran says, forgive the Idolators only if they accept Islam... and > >> Quran says this right from second Surah to the last one... > >> > >> Why? Our religion don't teach about this variance at all... Geeta > >> teaches how to unite, how to live with respective with each other, > >> how to love, how to perform duty... Why can't you teach peace... > >> > >> Why can't you understand that Nature has created every creature (of > >> all species) unique and different.. Nature has produced variance > >> so that creatures can live with respect to each other... A specie > >> is not naturally allowed to kill the same specie.. except for > >> humans.. where humans are killing humans... > >> > >> Let India live with its heritage of Hindutva... Thousands of years > >> of killing and enforcement have failed to eliminate Hindus... Another > > thousand will also fail... Because nature will keep the variance > > alive... But the attempt of Islam and christianity would only > > produce killing of innocent people... > >> > >> Hindus would kill muslims only during riots or war... But Muslim > >> would kill always for religious reasons... > >> Please stop talking all these things.. > >> Please talk peace... > >> Please talk how to proliferate the nation.. > >> Please suggest how to remove the Quranic Islam and produce Indian Islam... > >> Please stop attacking Hindus, Modi and Army... > >> Please, please, please.... > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ---- > >> From: Zainab Bawa > >> To: Kshmendra Kaul ; sarai list > >> > >> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 3:42:08 PM > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > >> > >> Dear > > Kshmendra and all your supporters and back slappers, > >> > >> You can easily pinpoint Oishik for his outburst of anger and frustration and > >> then state that because he (mis)directed his anger at Vedavati and company, > >> he has no right to talk about the abuse of Manipuri women at the hands of > >> the Indian state appointed soldiers there. How about for a moment > >> questioning Lady Chanchal and her remarks and for once again coming back to > >> the issue that Oishik has tried to raise - the rape of women at the hands of > >> state appointed army and the manifestations of the state's violence at > >> women? > >> > >> Chanchal diverted the topic by once again going back to her pet peeve of > >> Islam and Muslim and her hang ups of some frozen history that she loves to > >> imagine. I pointed out to her that it has nothing to do with Hindu-Muslim > >> populations and Hindu-Muslim army soldiers but a > > larger question and concern > >> about women being direct targets of state violence (with that state violence > >> and injustice also being responsible for the rise of all kinds of other > >> movements to combat it). I then pointed to Chanchal how I have also been > >> eve-teased in Srinagar by soldiers. No, they did not come to ask me whether > >> I was Hindu or Muslim but made lewd remarks simply because I was woman and > >> bear breasts and bosom on my person. I also want to clarify that it not > >> about the soldiers themselves, but about the institutions and the systems > >> that get perpetrated within the structure of the conflict and occupation of > >> space. Chanchal immediately retorted saying that because I happen to be > >> "Muslim", I am likely to complain about being eve teased. *What kind of a > >> patriarchal and discriminatory remark is this?* This does not come to your > >> attention but Oishik's > > suggestion of anal stimulation immediately strikes > >> you and you make claims about the mothers and sisters of the world. You > >> don't recognize that we have turned this into a battle of whose position is > >> right and backslapping. In our egostical positions and pride and victimized > >> states, as Gowhar and others have rightly pointed out, we fail to see who > >> suffers - children who are beaten by the army, women who are serially raped > >> and butchered, men whose psyches have been muted by the violences, families > >> that continue to suffer the losses of their loved ones, etc. and this is not > >> restricted to Kashmir, but to violence all over the world. But perhaps, you > >> would brush this aside by exclaiming that these are standard complaints of > >> Muslims. And then you cleverly subvert every issue, incidence and event to > >> Kashmir and to Muslims. Clever you! > >> > >> On this note, having > > personally known Oishik, I vouch for him as a very > >> sincere, honest and well-meaning person. One remark of anger and frustration > >> does not define a person's overall political commitments and thoughts. And > >> this would apply to my not boxing either of you as good or bad people on the > >> basis of your positions. > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> Zainab > >> > >> *P.S. Any immediate retort/s to this email will be and ought to be > >> categorically ignored. * > >> > >> > >> On Jan 20, 2008 3:05 PM, wrote: > >> > >> > Well said, with lal salaaam. > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: Kshmendra Kaul > >> > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:48 pm > >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > >> > To: sarai list > >> > > >> > > > > Oishik > >> > > > >> > > 1. Thank you for the suggestion directed to me. It does not > >> > > interest me. I too have some suggestions for you. > >> > > > >> > > 2. You seem to be obsessed with what you have experienced and > >> > > suggested. You see a lot of merit in it. > >> > > > >> > > 3. Charitable soul that you are, you must have promoted it to > >> > > your circle of family and friends. > >> > > > >> > > 4. OISHIT, since there might be others of your kind who might > >> > > not find your suggestions/language obscene and crude, you must > >> > > convince them about it. You must provide references for them on > >> > > the efficacy of your suggestion. > >> > > > >> > > 5. So OISHIT, I presume we will get testimonials from your > >> > > mother, sisters (if any), daughters (if any) and > > others to whom > >> > > you must have recommended the stimulation. They certainly would > >> > > have respected your suggestion. Maybe you even helped them in the > >> > > processes in the course of convincing them that your suggestion on > >> > > means to experience pleasure is not abuse. You must mention the > >> > > role played by you. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Kshmendra Kaul > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > >> > > Kshmendra: > >> > > > >> > > That was not meant to be an abuse at all... it was meant to > >> > > suggest a means to experience anal stimulation that can be > >> > > orgasmic... I have tried it... so suggested that Vedavati do the > >> > > same... you could also do the same... actually all the HINDUS who > >> > > > > are obsessing about nationalism on this listserv should do the > >> > > same... they'll realise that there are better and more enjoyable -- > >> > > and of course more useful things in life to do than spew virulent > >> > > intolerance. Suggesting means to experience pleasure is not abuse, > >> > > I'm sure you'll agree. > >> > > > >> > > And I am overwhelmed with the kind of response my comments have > >> > > attracted -- that's the way to keep the Hindu bullshitters engaged > >> > > I can clearly see. > >> > > > >> > > If you find this mail to be crude and obscene as well -- I > >> > > would've made my point. > >> > > > >> > > Cheers... > >> > > > >> > > Oishik > >> > > > >> > > On Jan 19, 2008 3:16 AM, Kshmendra Kaul > >> > > wrote: > >> > > It is > > ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to > >> > > the notice of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against > >> > > abuse directed at them. > >> > > > >> > > Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI) > >> > > was the one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and > >> > > obscene manner. > >> > > > >> > > Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would > >> > > have to say to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights" > >> > > (sic). > >> > > > >> > > Kshmendra Kaul > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > --------------------------------- > >> > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > >> > > Try it now. > >> > > _________________________________________ > >> > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > > List archive: > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > -- > >> > > OISHIK SIRCAR > >> > > > >> > > Scholar in Women's Rights > >> > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > >> > > > >> > > 60 Harbord Street > >> > > Room 016 B > >> > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > >> > > > > > >> > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > >> > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > >> > > > >> > > 416.876.7926 > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > --------------------------------- > >> > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > >> > > Try it now. > >> > > _________________________________________ > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> > > list > >> > > List archive: > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in > > the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> ____________________________________________________________________________________ > >> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > >> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > Fly HYD-BLR for Rs.499 Log on to MakeMyTrip! Check it out! > > > > > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > Try it now. > > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! > > > > > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! > > > > > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > > > It's about getting married. Click here! Try it! > > > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in > Scotland, with registration number SC005336. > > > _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 From gowharfazili at yahoo.com Tue Jan 22 20:05:46 2008 From: gowharfazili at yahoo.com (gowhar fazli) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 06:35:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits protest against Amnesty International In-Reply-To: <4fcaee300801210618v3b68d4d7m674741c0efbfdad7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <534656.68649.qm@web60613.mail.yahoo.com> Further i think they (the so called roots-in-kashmir who turn up to disrupt programmes) are terrible advocates of an otherwise sensible community of people (Pandits i mean) with whom i happen to share my lineage (and am also proud of the fact.) --- Wali Arifi wrote: > Mr A of ARKP, > > > Never rest till you "rights" are recognised! > > Until the "killings" and "purging" of your community > are not recognised as > "genocide, holocaust" etc etc etc whatever you may > want it to be... > > There must be hope in the Amnesty. > > > Keep up the good work! > > Best > > Wali > > On Jan 18, 2008 12:35 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > > Kashmiri Pandits protest against Amnesty > International > > > > *New Delhi* > > *A worldwide initiative of the Kashmiri Pandit > youth "Roots In Kashmir" > > protested against the international human rights > group Amnesty > > International > > on the occasion of 60th anniversary of Universal > Declaration of Human > > Rights > > on Sunday.* > > > > *The group accused Amnesty of being biased in > their human rights reports > > in > > the last two decades on the issue of Kashmir and > Kashmiri Pandits.* > > > > *"It has just failed to come to our rescue; > Amnesty has failed to rise to > > the occasion wherein it could have played a > greater role in raising the > > issues connected with the Kashmiri Pandit exodus," > said a group member.* > > ** > > *Read detailed story, pictures and more at - > > http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/* > > ** > > *Thanks* > > *Aditya Raj Kaul* > > *New Delhi* > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: Unfortunately, the balance of nature decrees that a super-abundance of dreams is paid for by a growing potential for nightmares. Love is an act of endless forgiveness, a tender look which becomes a habit. Peter Ustinov ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Tue Jan 22 23:41:03 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:11:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. In-Reply-To: <806886.50077.qm@web8715.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <663274.21538.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Ranjith, >>> it's better not to create something if really wanna destroy it. It seems that you are unproductive. I don't know whether you are a teacher or student at Hyderabad Central University. But let me bring you a simple example. At HCU or in any University or institution in the world, 1) Once the lecture and the corresponding explanations on BLACK BOARD COMPLETES will it be erased(destroyed in your terminology) or left as it is? If lecturers,professors,teachers feels like "for erasing the the writing on the blackboard its better not to write" then KUDOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.......... 2) If the teachings are slide based using a projector, THE SLIDES WILL BE RECOLLECTED OR KEPT INSIDE THE PROJECTOR? Any Lecturer/professor/teacher feels for recollecting the slides why should I put them inside the projector then KUDOOOS... 3) If the teachings are computer based, there should be a login for each student and the professor/lecturer/teacher. At the end everybody should log out. If anybody or all feels for logging out why should we log in then KUDOOOOOOOOOOS..... there will not be any education(theoretical and practical) at all. If it is either you or somebody else, Its all GARBAGE COLLECTION. Its not as much simple and easy as i) Poet CM, KARUNANIDHI and his GANG removed JAYALALITHA SAREE IN A STATE ASSEMBLY ii) JAYALALITHA ACCUSED KANCHI SEER. to understand the system whether EDUCATION or CASTE or whatever. Thankappan are u listening....... P.S: 2 and 3 points are for supportive argument. Regards, Dhatri. Ranjith Thankappan wrote: hahaha poor supreme ..what a work load give her some domestic lessons toooooo let the female GOD be emancipated from the burden of creating dharmis and adharmis....and after that take avatars to kill,,,, what a bastard imagination,,kudos... it's better not to create soemthing if really wanna destroy it GODs and Goddesss should hold caste meetings like mumbai brahmins and unlearn traditional idiosyncracies learn from the idiotic caste brahin selves who melt their brain on merit(sorry genetically engineered..so need gene-mapping exercise as well... cultural study people beware..... ) Gods are u listening....... thnks --------------------------------- Forgot the famous last words? Access your message archive online. Click here. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From messart at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 00:21:32 2008 From: messart at gmail.com (messart delhi) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 00:21:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] kashmiri Muslim, Kashmir Pandit ( your face, your hair ) Message-ID: <28ab259c0801221051r2883b9ffgea71e406676e04a3@mail.gmail.com> Dear Arif, Dear Ajay Rasul chu zanith deen te mazhab rokh te zulf chaen Kav zani kayah gov kufu te islam nigaro Your face and your hair. That is all I know about different forms of Religion. How come, I am expected to know what is Islamic or what is un-islamic. ( Rasool Mir- poet Kashmir Your face and your hair: Kashmiri Pandits and Kashmiri Muslims, although in contrast, but they belong to one language, one poet, one unique civilization: a singularity. Kashmiri Muslims yearn for " a just Kashmir" in contrast to Kashmiri Pandits who want " a just India's Kashmir" Right! I believe, this whole conflict is embedded in the desire… how to utter the inner core of the respective beings involved. Both the parties, by now, need to realize that it is a long drawn conflict, so they need to sustain, and see who is outwitting the other, if they are truly into the game of language. Both of them can engage their beings into that 'Kasheer thing' deeply, if there is a inner need to enter that Aag ka darya hai aur doob kay jana hai. Needless to mention that all actions finally translate into to signs and help us to generate other sings and symbols and future actions, and therefore, language with capital L. Language is not a dry subject; there is blood in it. Just see how we read history, and how easily we get so involved. All I want is a serious involvement, and not a sentimental one. How to say the same thing that does not seem out of place. Words tell us the secret of this and don't tell us, even. " .. that the imagination depends on words. Words complete our fantasies, fill in their gaps, support their inconsistency, prolong them, enrich them with what cannot be seen or touched" Jean Paul Sartre. I personally appreciate any effort that rips the word, because, language is out there to be treated as vegetable or a chicken under the knife. One can be thousand times wrong grammatically but one can not be shallow or trivial. There is nothing sacred or profane in the word, it in-it-self yearns for a bolder approach, a passionate penetrator. Here, Faiz, in fact never abandoned the romantic or the political even. One can see that "Your face and your hair in his poem simultaneously. Can we too do it. That is a challenge ? If I don't seem drifting too far, I believe, Meera had something to with Socrates. Not only because they had to drink poison in the end but they had a unique power to outwit the establishment. Meera mingled with the other and the popular and lifted it to the heights of metaphysical and so did secretes when he said while drinking hemlock " now I see my face merging with the mask " There was intense political hidden in both, besides that personal " Knowthyself". with love inder salim -- MESSart: mental,environmental,social sync art From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 00:23:00 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 00:23:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits protest against Amnesty International In-Reply-To: <47e122a70801221025s4b525a1avb2161396a1878b25@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690801180035u5928feabxfe24b1edf01f5595@mail.gmail.com> <4fcaee300801210618v3b68d4d7m674741c0efbfdad7@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70801221025s4b525a1avb2161396a1878b25@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70801221053m1044554fm39ab72275ca0cb0a@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 22, 2008 11:55 PM, inder salim wrote: > Dear Arifi, Dear Ajay > > Rasul chu zanith deen te mazhab rokh te zulf chaen > Kav zani kayah gov kufu te islam nigaro > Your face and your hair. That is all I know about different forms of > Religion. How come, I am expected to know what is Islamic or what is > un-islamic. ( Rasool Mir- poet Kashmir > > Your face and your hair: Kashmiri Pandits and Kashmiri Muslims, > although in contrast, but they belong to one language, one poet, one > unique civilization: a singularity. > Kashmiri Muslims yearn for " a just Kashmir" in contrast to Kashmiri > Pandits who want " a just India's Kashmir" Right! > > I believe, this whole conflict is embedded in the desire… how to utter > the inner core of the respective beings involved. > > Both the parties, by now, need to realize that it is a long drawn > conflict, so they need to sustain, and see who is outwitting the > other, if they are truly into the game of language. Both of them can > engage their beings into that 'Kasheer thing' deeply, if there is a > inner need to enter that Aag ka darya hai aur doob kay jana hai. > Needless to mention that all actions finally translate into to signs > and help us to generate other sings and symbols and future actions, > and therefore, language with capital L. Language is not a dry subject; > there is blood in it. Just see how we read history, and how easily we > get so involved. All I want is a serious involvement, and not a > sentimental one. > > How to say the same thing that does not seem out of place. Words tell > us the secret of this and don't tell us, even. > > " .. that the imagination depends on words. Words complete our > fantasies, fill in their gaps, support their inconsistency, prolong > them, enrich them with what cannot be seen or touched" Jean Paul > Sartre. > > I personally appreciate any effort that rips the word, because, > language is out there to be treated as vegetable or a chicken under > the knife. One can be thousand times wrong grammatically but one can > not be shallow or trivial. There is nothing sacred or profane in the > word, it in-it-self yearns for a bolder approach, a passionate > penetrator. > > Here, Faiz, in fact never abandoned the romantic or the political > even. One can see that "Your face and your hair in his poem > simultaneously. Can we too do it. That is a challenge ? > If I don't seem drifting too far, I believe, Meera had something to > with Socrates. Not only because they had to drink poison in the end > but they had a unique power to outwit the establishment. Meera mingled > with the other and the popular and lifted it to the heights of > metaphysical and so did secretes when he said while drinking hemlock " > now I see my face merging with the mask " There was intense political > hidden in both, besides that personal " Knowthyself". > > with love > inder salim > > > On Jan 21, 2008 7:48 PM, Wali Arifi wrote: > > Mr A of ARKP, > > > > > > Never rest till you "rights" are recognised! > > > > Until the "killings" and "purging" of your community are not recognised as > > "genocide, holocaust" etc etc etc whatever you may want it to be... > > > > There must be hope in the Amnesty. > > > > > > Keep up the good work! > > > > Best > > > > Wali > > > > On Jan 18, 2008 12:35 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > > > Kashmiri Pandits protest against Amnesty International > > > > > > *New Delhi* > > > *A worldwide initiative of the Kashmiri Pandit youth "Roots In Kashmir" > > > protested against the international human rights group Amnesty > > > International > > > on the occasion of 60th anniversary of Universal Declaration of Human > > > Rights > > > on Sunday.* > > > > > > *The group accused Amnesty of being biased in their human rights reports > > > in > > > the last two decades on the issue of Kashmir and Kashmiri Pandits.* > > > > > > *"It has just failed to come to our rescue; Amnesty has failed to rise to > > > the occasion wherein it could have played a greater role in raising the > > > issues connected with the Kashmiri Pandit exodus," said a group member.* > > > ** > > > *Read detailed story, pictures and more at - > > > http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/* > > > ** > > > *Thanks* > > > *Aditya Raj Kaul* > > > *New Delhi* > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From anoopkheri at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 05:08:38 2008 From: anoopkheri at gmail.com (anoop kumar) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 15:38:38 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] what non-Muslims say about Quran, Islam In-Reply-To: <719994.45395.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <719994.45395.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Chanchal I am sorry to respond to your long private mail in the public space. But i felt necessary to do so as your views only represents a mindset that is prevalent among majority of the present generation middle-class caste-hindus. And more so, this mindset is the biggest obstacle in the progress of my 'nation'. I hope you would not mind. I have tried to respond to some of your points below. i will be happy if you give some thought to it. *>>** **I do not know what has happened to the Indians...* *Why do they want to kill their own nation... Let me ask you few things...* *1. You have the sense to say 'Javed Bhai', but you are abusing your own countrymen in the name of Caste - this is how you want to unite the nation...* *<<* Unfortunately we might be sharing the same geographical space but definetly i refuse to be part of your 'nation' as your nation's ideals are quite anathema to me and as a Dalit I have no interest being fourth-grade citizen of your nation. Unlike your nation, my nation ideals are pretty well-defined through its constitution that preaches equality, liberty and fraternity towards all. So the onus of working for uniting your nation does not fall on me. In fact all my energy are channelized to subvert your nation. *>>* *2*. *Dr. Ambedkar actually legalized Caste System and He had no sense of Bhagwad Geeta. Nowhere in Bhagwad Geeta has been written about Caste system, nor is the Varna Arrangement a by birth theory. Read the books yourself to know the facts* *>>* Yup you are absolutely correct only brahmins and other caste-hindus can make sense of Bhagwat Gita. Dr. Ambedkar, being born a dalit, was definetly non-meritorious and so am I. So there is absolutely no need for me to read Gita too as i will also never be able to make sense. * >>* 3. *Do you go to temples? If yes, how many temples in India have you found that has implemented a system of recognizing caste and then allowing people to enter the temple. I agree there are few incidences (particularly in South), but there are more political reason behind it rather than religious* *<< *No dear I dont go to any temples. Then also I can vouch that most of the temples in this country prohibit the entry of some or the other dalit community. However, it is pointless to give you proof because you will never believe that and more so the temple entry at this juncture of our struggle has lost its importance for my community. No more we are intrested with the temple entry thing hence you will not find dalit movement bothered about this issue after independence. Please keep your temples with yourself, Dalits are too happy to go without it. * * more later anoop ** PS- I will reply to rest of ur points too but in my later mails as i really dont have much time. hope you will not mind. From anoopkheri at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 05:21:54 2008 From: anoopkheri at gmail.com (anoop kumar) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 15:51:54 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] are these nationalists In-Reply-To: References: <9c06aab30801220117m957bbcj2f9c11655703f635@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Shivam bhai What has happened to the 'born-meritorious' people? Why they cant even argue logically? Before I started interacting with 'merit-wallas' i used to be in awe as i used to listen to clamor of their merits everywhere. However now i am highly disappointed as their claim of merit is as bogus as their reclaiming of ancient india as the golden hindu past. anoop On Jan 22, 2008 3:08 AM, wrote: > This is favourite propaganda work for division of society, if that is not > so, how do you explain the violence that breaks out regularly between > muslims during the moharram procession. ? Christians like divided populace, > now it is the turn of islam and its followers, as they are divided as > sunnis,shias, wahabis, bohras etc. Any society with different faiths if > united it is good for that society, divided populace is easy to manipulate > for the power seekers as mirs and jaichands are there in every faith. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > Date: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 2:48 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] are these nationalists > To: "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" > Cc: anoop kumar , reader-list at sarai.net > > > > my friend those who go out of the nation do not carry caste > > with them, > > > they carry the love for the mitti of the nation with them > > > > > > British Hindus divided by caste > > > > By Naresh Puri, BBC News, 21 December 2007 > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7156139.stm > > > > A leading British Asian organisation is warning that men, women and > > children are being abused, attacked and spat at, because they are low > > caste Hindus regarded as impure and untouchable. > > > > They are the victims of the 2,000-year-old Indian caste system which > > activists say is flourishing on the streets of Britain, even > > though it > > is banned in India. > > > > [...] > > > > "We have children at school who are being bullied and mocked because > > they're from so-called low castes, we have discrimination in the > > workplace, where some Asians refuse to work with the low castes, and > > we even have violence". > > > > Asian rapper Shiv Gharu has suffered since childhood because of > > his caste. > > > > "When I was a child, I was taunted and abused and called slave boy and > > untouchable", he said. > > > > "I was involved with a woman who was from a higher caste and her > > father would not even let me in their house. > > > > "I was not accepted and when people from the higher castes found out > > about my relationship, I was beaten up, all because I'm from a low > > caste". > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > > > On 1/21/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > > HA HA HA, > > > > > > > > > my friend those who go out of the nation do not carry caste > > with them, they carry the love for the mitti of the nation with > > them, at the first level of meeting another fellow indian in the > > other adopted land they do not worry about the caste but are happy > > to meet another from their nation.The feel of being from the same > > nation is much stronger, ask any one who work in gulf nations, he > > might have born in any caste, it is the vocation and the job that > > he does there gives him his rozi roti and power to help his family > > and members of his family to a better life. > > > Or to that matter ask the professionals like doctors or > > engineers or to that matter drivers of a cab, he is happy to have > > you talk with him in his life when he sees you there in his > > adopted nation. Regards. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: anoop kumar > > > Date: Monday, January 21, 2008 5:48 pm > > > Subject: Re: are these nationalists > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Cc: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > > > > > haahhaaha > > > > > > > > right ! caste-hindus dont take their religion wherever they go.... > > > > there is > > > > no need for them. they take their caste because this where their > > > > 'faith'belong to > > > > > > > > anoop > > > -- Anoop 0-9313432410 From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 09:31:22 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:31:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Invitation to ViBGYOR Energy Conference in Thiruvanathapuram Message-ID: <4796BC12.1090005@gmail.com> Dear Friends, ViBGYOR Film Collective wishes to invite you to the *National ENERGY Conference* at Thiruvananthapuram, on *January 24th *(Thursday) from 10am-4pm at *Bank Employees Assocition Auditorium, Pulimoodu Junctin*. as a part of curtain raiser events for Third edition of ViBGYOR International Short and Documentary Festival 2008, Thrissur (http://vibgyorfilm.com) At a time when struggles against nuclear power plants, large dams and super thermal plants are becoming more and more common in the developing world, the need to discuss problems related to energy is becoming more and more grave. An understanding of the implications of choice of any form of energy is a political choice which has to be implemented with concern and understanding of its impact on communities, environment as well as future generations. Please find the Programme below: *ViBGYOR ENERGY Conference * *Thiruvananthapuram, January 24, 10am-4pm*, Bank Employees Association Building, Pulimoodu Junction *Production, Distribution & Consumption of Energy- * *Policies, Problems & Alternatives * Programme * * *10am*: *Inaugural Function* Welcome Presidential address: Rajaji Mathew Thomas MLA, (Chairman, Legislative Committee on Environment) Inaugural address: Sandeep Pandey Vote of Thanks *11am**: Presentations & Representations* Moderator: K.P.Sasi Dr. P.Udayakumar Dr. RVG Menon V.T,.Padmanabhan Responses Discussion *2.00**: Presentations & Representations* Moderator: Dr.S P.Udayakumar Dr. Latha (Chalakudy River protection committee) T. Peter, KSMTF (Kerala Swathantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation) P.C. Alexander Dr. Jagdish Representations: Peringom, Koodamkulam, Chalakudy Discussion *4.00*: *Valedictory Function* Conference Resolution: Sandeep Pandey (signed by all present) *Organized by*: ViBGYOR Film Collective, in association with KSMTF, Chilla, HRLN, Chetana Media Institute, NOTTAM Traveling Festival, Global Alternate Information Applications (GAIA), Centre for Social Education (CenSE), Visual Search, Moving Republic, SICHREM, The Other Media Communications, INSAF, Sangama, Abhivyakti, Visthar, Environment Support Group (ESG), NESA, National Adivasi Andolan, Focus on Global South, Vikas Adyayan Kendra (VAK), Orissa Development Action Forum (ODAF), Drishti and People's Watch From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Wed Jan 23 11:46:37 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:16:37 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] are these nationalists In-Reply-To: References: <"e3 74d9bd40561.4794e513"@vsnl.net> <9c06aab30801220117m957bbcj2f9c11655703f635@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ANOOP BHAI, humans have their good and bad qualities, some make efforts to have good in society as god of the society, some use their bad to exploit god for their benefit ,not for the society.Ills in any faith is open for all to see, in any faith or way of life, good try the reformation to ills in their faith, but bad in humans retain the ills for their benefit, using the very scripts, with new interpretation of the script, that is changing society, change is constant, for good or bad, it depends for individuals to seek good and excel in good of the society, methods may vary, but proven method is that of non-violence which ultimately triumphs, but individuals in society today want quick-fix solutions to all issues and this is where the issue of conflict lies. ! ----- Original Message ----- From: anoop kumar Date: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:22 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] are these nationalists To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Cc: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् , reader-list at sarai.net > Shivam bhai > > What has happened to the 'born-meritorious' people? Why they cant > even argue > logically? > > Before I started interacting with 'merit-wallas' i used to be in > awe as i > used to listen to clamor of their merits everywhere. However now > i am > highly disappointed as their claim of merit is as bogus as their > reclaimingof ancient india as the golden hindu past. > > anoop > > On Jan 22, 2008 3:08 AM, wrote: > > > This is favourite propaganda work for division of society, if > that is not > > so, how do you explain the violence that breaks out regularly > between> muslims during the moharram procession. ? Christians like > divided populace, > > now it is the turn of islam and its followers, as they are > divided as > > sunnis,shias, wahabis, bohras etc. Any society with different > faiths if > > united it is good for that society, divided populace is easy to > manipulate> for the power seekers as mirs and jaichands are there > in every faith. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > > Date: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 2:48 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] are these nationalists > > To: "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" > > Cc: anoop kumar , reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > my friend those who go out of the nation do not carry caste > > > with them, > > > > they carry the love for the mitti of the nation with them > > > > > > > > > British Hindus divided by caste > > > > > > By Naresh Puri, BBC News, 21 December 2007 > > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7156139.stm > > > > > > A leading British Asian organisation is warning that men, > women and > > > children are being abused, attacked and spat at, because they > are low > > > caste Hindus regarded as impure and untouchable. > > > > > > They are the victims of the 2,000-year-old Indian caste system > which> > activists say is flourishing on the streets of Britain, even > > > though it > > > is banned in India. > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > "We have children at school who are being bullied and mocked > because> > they're from so-called low castes, we have > discrimination in the > > > workplace, where some Asians refuse to work with the low > castes, and > > > we even have violence". > > > > > > Asian rapper Shiv Gharu has suffered since childhood because of > > > his caste. > > > > > > "When I was a child, I was taunted and abused and called slave > boy and > > > untouchable", he said. > > > > > > "I was involved with a woman who was from a higher caste and her > > > father would not even let me in their house. > > > > > > "I was not accepted and when people from the higher castes > found out > > > about my relationship, I was beaten up, all because I'm from a low > > > caste". > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/21/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > > > HA HA HA, > > > > > > > > > > > > my friend those who go out of the nation do not carry caste > > > with them, they carry the love for the mitti of the nation with > > > them, at the first level of meeting another fellow indian in the > > > other adopted land they do not worry about the caste but are happy > > > to meet another from their nation.The feel of being from the same > > > nation is much stronger, ask any one who work in gulf nations, he > > > might have born in any caste, it is the vocation and the job that > > > he does there gives him his rozi roti and power to help his family > > > and members of his family to a better life. > > > > Or to that matter ask the professionals like doctors or > > > engineers or to that matter drivers of a cab, he is happy to have > > > you talk with him in his life when he sees you there in his > > > adopted nation. Regards. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: anoop kumar > > > > Date: Monday, January 21, 2008 5:48 pm > > > > Subject: Re: are these nationalists > > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > Cc: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > > > > > > > haahhaaha > > > > > > > > > > right ! caste-hindus dont take their religion wherever > they go.... > > > > > there is > > > > > no need for them. they take their caste because this > where their > > > > > 'faith'belong to > > > > > > > > > > anoop > > > > > > > > > -- > Anoop > > 0-9313432410 > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 11:56:49 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:56:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Remebering Our Netaji Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801222226y7b6a3f7doc622eec572aaec41@mail.gmail.com> Today is Netaji's Birth anniversay.And unfortunately India seems to be forgetting our great hero ! "Where Communism is deficient is that it does not appreciate the value of national sentiment.-------- Netaji Subhas Chander Bose" Check this nice web site of Netaji : http://www.missionnetaji.org/index_new.php From mail at shivamvij.com Wed Jan 23 12:12:51 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:12:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] are these nationalists In-Reply-To: References: <9c06aab30801220117m957bbcj2f9c11655703f635@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30801222242s17aab010q4c114f30a7683da5@mail.gmail.com> Anoop bhai, actually this is merit, you are seeing merit for the first time! be privileged, be proud, be a proud Hindu! You are now acquiring merit! shivam On 1/23/08, anoop kumar wrote: > Shivam bhai > > What has happened to the 'born-meritorious' people? Why they cant even argue > logically? > > Before I started interacting with 'merit-wallas' i used to be in awe as i > used to listen to clamor of their merits everywhere. However now i am > highly disappointed as their claim of merit is as bogus as their reclaiming > of ancient india as the golden hindu past. > > anoop > > > On Jan 22, 2008 3:08 AM, wrote: > > This is favourite propaganda work for division of society, if that is not > so, how do you explain the violence that breaks out regularly between > muslims during the moharram procession. ? Christians like divided populace, > now it is the turn of islam and its followers, as they are divided as > sunnis,shias, wahabis, bohras etc. Any society with different faiths if > united it is good for that society, divided populace is easy to manipulate > for the power seekers as mirs and jaichands are there in every faith. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > > Date: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 2:48 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] are these nationalists > > To: "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" > > Cc: anoop kumar , reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > my friend those who go out of the nation do not carry caste > > > with them, > > > > they carry the love for the mitti of the nation with them > > > > > > > > > British Hindus divided by caste > > > > > > By Naresh Puri, BBC News, 21 December 2007 > > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7156139.stm > > > > > > A leading British Asian organisation is warning that men, women and > > > children are being abused, attacked and spat at, because they are low > > > caste Hindus regarded as impure and untouchable. > > > > > > They are the victims of the 2,000-year-old Indian caste system which > > > activists say is flourishing on the streets of Britain, even > > > though it > > > is banned in India. > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > "We have children at school who are being bullied and mocked because > > > they're from so-called low castes, we have discrimination in the > > > workplace, where some Asians refuse to work with the low castes, and > > > we even have violence". > > > > > > Asian rapper Shiv Gharu has suffered since childhood because of > > > his caste. > > > > > > "When I was a child, I was taunted and abused and called slave boy and > > > untouchable", he said. > > > > > > "I was involved with a woman who was from a higher caste and her > > > father would not even let me in their house. > > > > > > "I was not accepted and when people from the higher castes found out > > > about my relationship, I was beaten up, all because I'm from a low > > > caste". > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/21/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > > > HA HA HA, > > > > > > > > > > > > my friend those who go out of the nation do not carry caste > > > with them, they carry the love for the mitti of the nation with > > > them, at the first level of meeting another fellow indian in the > > > other adopted land they do not worry about the caste but are happy > > > to meet another from their nation.The feel of being from the same > > > nation is much stronger, ask any one who work in gulf nations, he > > > might have born in any caste, it is the vocation and the job that > > > he does there gives him his rozi roti and power to help his family > > > and members of his family to a better life. > > > > Or to that matter ask the professionals like doctors or > > > engineers or to that matter drivers of a cab, he is happy to have > > > you talk with him in his life when he sees you there in his > > > adopted nation. Regards. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: anoop kumar > > > > Date: Monday, January 21, 2008 5:48 pm > > > > Subject: Re: are these nationalists > > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > Cc: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > > > > > > > haahhaaha > > > > > > > > > > right ! caste-hindus dont take their religion wherever they go.... > > > > > there is > > > > > no need for them. they take their caste because this where their > > > > > 'faith'belong to > > > > > > > > > > anoop > > > > > > > > > -- > Anoop > > 0-9313432410 From shuddha at sarai.net Wed Jan 23 12:30:23 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (shuddha at sarai.net) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:30:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Remebering Our Netaji In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70801222226y7b6a3f7doc622eec572aaec41@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70801222226y7b6a3f7doc622eec572aaec41@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <77e79c3d5acaac41199a0ee0118f0144@sarai.net> I am not so inclined to remember the man who was so willing to dance an elaborate tango with Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo and Stalin, except to remember that he was culpable for the massacre of very large number of people on the Burma Siam Railroad, and in the Andaman Islands during the second world war.I think that our part of the world was spared a tragic tryst with his own home grown but Nazi cultivated variant of Fascism when that fateful plane went up in flames on taking off from Taipei airport at the end of the Second World War. On 11:56 am 01/23/08 "Pawan Durani" wrote: > Today is Netaji's Birth anniversay.And unfortunately India seems to be > forgetting our great hero ! > > "Where Communism is deficient is that it does not appreciate the > value of national sentiment.-------- Netaji Subhas Chander Bose" > > Check this nice web site of Netaji : > http://www.missionnetaji.org/index_new.php > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.ne > t/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From tulunadu at hotmail.com Wed Jan 23 13:11:13 2008 From: tulunadu at hotmail.com (Krishna Chaithanya) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:11:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] are these nationalists In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30801222242s17aab010q4c114f30a7683da5@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30801220117m957bbcj2f9c11655703f635@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30801222242s17aab010q4c114f30a7683da5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: What is merit yaar? bullshit. I learnt more from the fisherman than my fisheries college professor KC > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:12:51 +0530 > From: mail at shivamvij.com > To: anoopkheri at gmail.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] are these nationalists > > Anoop bhai, > > actually this is merit, you are seeing merit for the first time! be > privileged, be proud, be a proud Hindu! You are now acquiring merit! > > shivam > > On 1/23/08, anoop kumar wrote: > > Shivam bhai > > > > What has happened to the 'born-meritorious' people? Why they cant even argue > > logically? > > > > Before I started interacting with 'merit-wallas' i used to be in awe as i > > used to listen to clamor of their merits everywhere. However now i am > > highly disappointed as their claim of merit is as bogus as their reclaiming > > of ancient india as the golden hindu past. > > > > anoop > > > > > > On Jan 22, 2008 3:08 AM, wrote: > > > This is favourite propaganda work for division of society, if that is not > > so, how do you explain the violence that breaks out regularly between > > muslims during the moharram procession. ? Christians like divided populace, > > now it is the turn of islam and its followers, as they are divided as > > sunnis,shias, wahabis, bohras etc. Any society with different faiths if > > united it is good for that society, divided populace is easy to manipulate > > for the power seekers as mirs and jaichands are there in every faith. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > > > Date: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 2:48 pm > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] are these nationalists > > > To: "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" > > > Cc: anoop kumar , reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > > my friend those who go out of the nation do not carry caste > > > > with them, > > > > > they carry the love for the mitti of the nation with them > > > > > > > > > > > > British Hindus divided by caste > > > > > > > > By Naresh Puri, BBC News, 21 December 2007 > > > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7156139.stm > > > > > > > > A leading British Asian organisation is warning that men, women and > > > > children are being abused, attacked and spat at, because they are low > > > > caste Hindus regarded as impure and untouchable. > > > > > > > > They are the victims of the 2,000-year-old Indian caste system which > > > > activists say is flourishing on the streets of Britain, even > > > > though it > > > > is banned in India. > > > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > "We have children at school who are being bullied and mocked because > > > > they're from so-called low castes, we have discrimination in the > > > > workplace, where some Asians refuse to work with the low castes, and > > > > we even have violence". > > > > > > > > Asian rapper Shiv Gharu has suffered since childhood because of > > > > his caste. > > > > > > > > "When I was a child, I was taunted and abused and called slave boy and > > > > untouchable", he said. > > > > > > > > "I was involved with a woman who was from a higher caste and her > > > > father would not even let me in their house. > > > > > > > > "I was not accepted and when people from the higher castes found out > > > > about my relationship, I was beaten up, all because I'm from a low > > > > caste". > > > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/21/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > > > > HA HA HA, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > my friend those who go out of the nation do not carry caste > > > > with them, they carry the love for the mitti of the nation with > > > > them, at the first level of meeting another fellow indian in the > > > > other adopted land they do not worry about the caste but are happy > > > > to meet another from their nation.The feel of being from the same > > > > nation is much stronger, ask any one who work in gulf nations, he > > > > might have born in any caste, it is the vocation and the job that > > > > he does there gives him his rozi roti and power to help his family > > > > and members of his family to a better life. > > > > > Or to that matter ask the professionals like doctors or > > > > engineers or to that matter drivers of a cab, he is happy to have > > > > you talk with him in his life when he sees you there in his > > > > adopted nation. Regards. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: anoop kumar > > > > > Date: Monday, January 21, 2008 5:48 pm > > > > > Subject: Re: are these nationalists > > > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > Cc: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > > > > > > > > > haahhaaha > > > > > > > > > > > > right ! caste-hindus dont take their religion wherever they go.... > > > > > > there is > > > > > > no need for them. they take their caste because this where their > > > > > > 'faith'belong to > > > > > > > > > > > > anoop > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Anoop > > > > 0-9313432410 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Tried the new MSN Messenger? It’s cool! Download now. http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in From asitredsalute at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 13:37:48 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:37:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. In-Reply-To: <518230.19941.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <518230.19941.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: this pioson we and them is dangorous why cant we behave as indians and focus on serious issues like unemloyment poverty etc communalism is a dangouros gameplan to divide poor working indians and deflect srious issue inthe end helping the rulers and the exploiters nothing different from british colonisers asit On Jan 20, 2008 6:23 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: > How many bombs you have thrown.. > Ask this to them... Not us... > We are reacting.. They are acting... > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Krishna Chaithanya > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:19:37 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the > society....!? > > We bomb them > and they bomb us > and we bomb them > and they bomb us > together we bomb us > then who is left to bomb...? > > KC > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:33:09 +0500 > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > Hi, true, it for too long hindus have been tolerent leading to a > sarcastic comment that they are cowards, may be Nehru was coward when India > was divided for his greed,may be Krishna menon loved chinese vaginas more > than indian ones, but now it is time that hindu understood the value of > SAMA, Dana, BHEDHA are over, dandam dashagunam bhaveth. Violence can be > stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: chanchal malviya > > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:24 am > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > To: Javed , reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > It is time for Hindus to rise now... > > > And no dicussion or virtual communities can stop it... > > > > > > Swami Vivekanand said - India have enough of religion.. > > > And it is time now to say this to Christian and Muslims who force > > > conversions the same thing.. > > > If Sanskrit is the mother of all languages, Hinduism is the mother > > > of all Religions... (But two religions have in particular always > > > learnt to abuse their mother(Hinduism) - Islam and Christianity)... > > > It is time now to stop the nation from producing more Kashmirs... > > > It is time now to stop the non-Independent Religious India... > > > > > > So go on my dear friends as much as you like to abuse Hindus.. > > > It hardly matters now.. > > > > > > Ramayan is proving to be a reality, Mahabharat is a reality.. > > > History will also change.. > > > It is Hindus that have taught peace to the world.. but to do that > > > again, the two attackers have to be checked now.. > > > People are doing that.. And will do that.. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Javed > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 6:00:16 PM > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > > > India's Islam > > > by Arun Nair > > > > > > Firstly, I must apologise if this article smacks of an impolite > > > urgency and prescriptive-ness. I mean not to be arrogant, but as > > > someone addressing you on a matter of deep concern to us all, I felt > > > that there was little room for ceremonial apologies before every > > > sentence. Also, as an Indian middle-class Hindu who grew up in the > > > Babri-masjid 90s, it is easy for me to say some of the things I say > > > here. > > > > > > Secondly, I address you, the reader, as an Indian citizen, not as a > > > saintly Kabir or Gandhi preaching love for humanity. Our collective > > > interests are being threatened by communal forces from within and > > > without. WE MUST ACT. We must not merely lament about our respective > > > versions of helplessnesses and others' faults. We are free today > > > because India's greatest generation shook off the ghosts that > > > bedevilled them, and took action to protect our interests. I implore > > > you to continue that legacy. > > > > > > Thirdly, while I will go into what in my opinion are highly plausible > > > theories of Indian nationhood and nationalism, my primary aim here is > > > not to write any treatise on politics or sociology, but to protect our > > > rights to belong equally to India – our common ancestral land – as > > > Indians, and as free, dignified humans. > > > > > > Fourthly, my ideas will be presented largely based on first > > > principles, also known as common-sense. > > > > > > My thesis is this: India must boldly assert its claim on Islamic > > > civilisation in the subcontinent. That is the key to end our communal > > > woes. > > > > > > This does not mean that India must become Islamic, or that Indian > > > Muslims must be somehow Hinduised. The idea, instead, is to campaign > > > relentlessly for India's Islamic civilisational authenticity. > > > > > > In the Indian psyche, Pakistan stands for Islam. Sadly for us and > > > admittedly in a weaker form, Islam is also synonymous with Pakistan > > > and everything Pakistani. This wouldn't have been so bad if Pakistan > > > wasn't, well, un-Indian. We must use every tool at our disposal as a > > > people to destroy the entrenched idea of Pakistani ownership of > > > subcontinental Islam from within India. More importantly, this idea > > > must be attacked from without it, because that is where it originates. > > > > > > Our chief weapon to eliminate Islam-Pakistan hyphenation from the > > > subcontinent will be an authentic claim: the centre of Islamic > > > civilisation in South Asia has always been undivided India, and after > > > partition, India is its natural primary heir. The fact that a few > > > million Muslims left India during partition to settle in our erstwhile > > > outlying provinces doesn't change this. Neither does the fact that the > > > Indian people chose a progressive, secular, democratic polity for > > > their republic. > > > > > > In our minds and in the world's view, subcontinental Islam is under > > > Pakistani occupation. The historical Indo-centric nature of > > > subcontinental Islam should be used to throw off this psychological > > > yoke. I urge Indians to rally together once again as our greatest > > > generation did to protect our collective interests as the people of > > > India. I urge friends of India all over the world to join us. Both in > > > terms of geography and spirit, Islam in the subcontinent that > > > coexisted and flourished alongside Indic cultures, has always been > > > more Indian than Pakistani. If any single country represents > > > subcontinental Islam as it historically was, it is India. Not > > > Pakistan. > > > > > > India's Mughals. India's Qutub Minar, Gol Gumaz, and Taj Mahal. > > > India's Kabir. India's Tipu Sultan, Shah Jahan, Akbar, and, why not, > > > Aurangazeb. India's Urdu. India's Ghalib and Khusro. India's Delhi, > > > Lucknow, Mysore, Hyderabad, Malabar, and Agra. > > > > > > Good history has to be deliberately written > > > > > > The people of India inherited thousands of years of history and > > > associated baggage that we didn't really ask for. > > > > > > Keep in mind though that history is not a dead object - it is > > > unfurling even as you read this. We may not be able to change what > > > happened in India 200 years ago. But 200 years from now when people > > > look back, they will see the Indian history that our generation wrote. > > > It becomes then our duty, both as Indians and as sensible humans, to > > > write it well. > > > > > > It is a great privilege to deliberately be able to write a part of > > > something grand like the history of India. The first generation of > > > Indians who did a coordinated job of writing our history was the one > > > that won us our independence – our "freedom-generation". They could > > > have attempted to write their Indian chapter any way they wanted to. > > > We could have had a dark, China-style communism, for instance. But, > > > given the Indian context, the freedom-generation chose the most > > > egalitarian, elegant, and humanist theme they could come up with: a > > > secular, liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, that takes its > > > strength from its inherent pluralism and its inheritance of one of > > > mankind's greatest civilisations. > > > > > > The freedom-generation's legacy for us is the deliberate and > > > intelligent manner in which they forged an Indian national identity. > > > Thanks to their efforts, our nationality is a solid concept. An Indian > > > from Karnataka has a robust nationalistic bond with Indians say from > > > Punjab, Gujarat, Assam, or Delhi. Regardless of what languages we > > > speak, we all recognise Marathi, Tamil, Bengali and Telugu as Indian > > > languages – ancestral assets that all Indians collectively own. > > > > > > It is a mistake, however, to think that the nation-building task they > > > began is complete. Indian nationalism is not an idea frozen in time, > > > but an evolving one. We, the successors of India's freedom-generation, > > > must exercise our prerogative to define its finer contours and bring > > > in new ideas to enrich it. Furthermore, we have an obligation to both > > > our founding fathers and India's posterity to do this while being true > > > to our quintessential Indian-ness, the just, egalitarian nature of our > > > country as embodied in our constitution. > > > > > > Given that India's situation is not as pressing as it once was, new > > > nationalist leaders – giants of the stature of Mahatma Gandhi, Khan > > > Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Subhash Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh, Jawaharlal > > > Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad or Vallabhai Patel – may be difficult to > > > emerge. There is no need to though. We succeeded them, and we must > > > take this task upon ourselves. The freedom-generation watches over us > > > in the form of our fraternity as Indians which they moulded at a great > > > cost, and our constitution. > > > > > > Indian Nationalism - the idea of Indian brotherhood > > > > > > Amidst all this noisy consternation of Taslima Nasrin, Babri-masjid, > > > BJP-Congress etc., its easy to lose sight of the really big pictures. > > > Consider, for instance, this question: what really is the essence of > > > Indian nationalism? Why do we all feel so closely tied to India > > > and to > > > each other? > > > > > > My answer is that, to put it simply, without the land we call India, > > > Indians either have no identity, or very anaemic identities. All > > > Indians share this same curious relation to India. > > > When we are born to the same human mother, we are brothers. Our > > > constitution formed by our freedom-generation explicitly asserts > > > fraternity among the Indian people. Fraternity – brotherhood. In what > > > sense are we brothers? > > > > > > Indians are brothers in the sense that the motherland that birthed my > > > identity, also birthed yours. India is our ancestral land, and we > > > should be proud of everything associated with it. Everything in India, > > > its religions, its good and its bad, its languages, its glories and > > > struggles, its rivers, its emperors, its heroes and villains, > > > everything – is intricately weaved into our consciousnesses of who we > > > are, where we come from, what our place in this world is, and how > > > other humans see us. Without that identity, we are crippled. > > > > > > Ours is no ordinary brotherhood. Indian people didn't come into being > > > merely a few centuries ago. We are an ancient civilisation, and what > > > we have is a civlisational brotherhood – a bond arising from all of > > > our belonging to the civilisation that unfolded in the same land, > > > India. That brotherhood was formally declared through the constitution > > > in 1949, but it existed much before that. Before our greatest > > > generation gave it a concrete wording in the 20th century, it was well > > > moulded in the crucible that is our land, in the fire of the previous > > > several dozen, if not more, centuries. > > > > > > Every country of the world has stories that define their national > > > essences. What is the most essential feature of Indian > > > nationalism? It > > > is our Indian identity – our being tied to India, and our > > > civilisational brotherhood to each other in being bonded so. All > > > Indians, regardless of their religion or language, has this bond with > > > India and with each other. > > > Indians must pause for a while and think why our anthem's going over > > > our landmarks is so emotive. Or why Hindu-Muslim-Sikh-Christian > > > insignia are powerful. Or why merely thinking of our history, or our > > > Kerala, Karnataka, Maharashtra, UP, Punjab and Bengal moves all of us > > > equally. > > > > > > It's because they remind us of our organic ties to India, and the > > > brotherhood that we have with each other. This natural bond given to > > > us by our glorious and at times bloody history is important. If we > > > don't uphold this bond with the ferocity that our greatest generation > > > did, if we don't use it to protect our common interests, our country > > > will remain weak. > > > > > > Our country's nature > > > > > > What is the nature of our country? What does it mean for something > > > to be Indian? > > > For one, if all of us Indians could get together today and declare in > > > one voice that India stands for certain values, then that would be an > > > authoritative statement. India is what Indians say it is. If, say, the > > > people of the then-Indian civilisation – Hindus, Muslims, Christians, > > > Buddhists, Sikhs, and Jains – had made such a statement 400 years ago > > > and preserved its spirit through centuries, that would have probably > > > have been one of the greatest Indian texts. > > > > > > If you will recall, a very similar event actually did happen in 1949, > > > when the founding fathers of the Indian republic adopted, enacted, and > > > gave to ourselves - the sovereign people of India - our constitution. > > > The preamble reads, > > > > > > "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India > > > into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure > > > to all its citizens: > > > JUSTICE, social, economic and political; > > > LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; > > > EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among them all > > > FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and > > > integrity of the Nation. > > > IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, > > > do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION." > > > > > > In an absolute sense, the values of justice, liberty, and equality > > > have an intuitive appeal to all humans everywhere. However, the > > > formidable authority of our constitution comes from the crushed but > > > proud people who paid a very high price for our right to live as > > > equals and as dignified humans in India. We must take their word for > > > what India is – they must have known and dreamt quite a bit about it. > > > > > > India's greatest generation definitely realised that divisivism, > > > self-doubt, and other demons from our past would haunt the republic > > > they formed. Which is why the constitution is important. It helps us > > > protect our country from ourselves. > > > > > > The Constitution. Indian Nationalism. How we will defend India. > > > > > > Those who doubt the moral power of our freedom-generation, our > > > constitutional ethos, and Indian nationalism need only look at > > > Pakistan, which renounced all these in its attempts not to be seen as > > > Indian. Pakistan's leaders, in trying to defend their divisve national > > > philosophy, forced the most horrible bankruptcy on its people. > > > > > > Rather than using Indian nationalism and the constitution to tackle > > > our communal issues, I am appalled at the general trend to merely > > > lament that India is on its way to being declared an non-secular state > > > - the hundreds of millions of Indians fully intent on preventing this > > > notwithstanding. > > > > > > Pakistan-style Islamism, Ummah-isation of Hinduism, alienation of > > > Indian Muslims > > > > > > There are three major trends in India today that are relevant to > > > our topic. > > > > > > Firstly, India has very serious conflicts of interest with Pakistan. > > > We have gone to war with that country several times. Its society has > > > issues with radicalisation and a general religious orthodoxy. Its > > > regimes have relentlessly attacked India's internal fault-lines over > > > the past few decades in the name of Islam. Tens of thousands of Indian > > > soldiers have died defending our country against them. It is > > > distinctly un-Indian and anti-Indian. > > > > > > Secondly, Hinduism is, for the lack of a better word, Ummah-ising, and > > > this at times takes horrifyingly militant forms. I, given my personal > > > biases, am all for Hindu solidarity and abolishing pseudo-secularism. > > > However, an argument for Hindu-solidarity should not be allowed to > > > take the form of an un-Indian religionalism that goes against the very > > > spirit of India. > > > > > > Thirdly, Indian Muslims feel alienated from their own country. In > > > India, Pakistan is synonymous with Islam. Unfortunately, Islam is also > > > weakly synonymous with Pakistan. This has significantly undermined > > > Indian Muslims' political standing in India vis-a-vis their fellow > > > citizens. > > > > > > The havoc all this has wreaked on our society must not be ignored. > > > India was home to one of humanity's greatest Islamic cultures for well > > > over 1000 years. It is not, by any means, a dead part of our > > > culture - > > > nearly 160 million Indians are Muslims, several national icons are > > > Muslims, mosques and Islamic architecture litter the country, and > > > Muslim holidays are shared by all. And yet, to a lot of Indians, Islam > > > doesn't feel Indian, but Pakistani. Despite their respective religious > > > majorities, it is odd that Buddhism doesn't feel Sri Lankan, or > > > Hinduism itself, Nepali. > > > > > > The partition of India and secular India's deprivation of its Islamic > > > authenticity > > > > > > Has anyone thought what has actually happened here? Why is it that in > > > India, an ancient civilisational land which has a unique Islamic > > > culture just like Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, Islam is seen as somehow > > > foreign? That is not because of Islam's being inconsistent with India > > > – 1000 years and more of history and our combined freedom struggle > > > should have proven this by now. > > > > > > During partition, founders of Pakistan expropriated the subcontinent's > > > Islamic identity for defining their nation, Pakistan. Pakistan's > > > struggle to keep its ideology alive has robbed us of our Islamic > > > authenticity. India's secular nature not-withstanding, the ardour with > > > which Pakistan argued itsideology and pushed its exclusivist national > > > philosophy within the larger Islamic community ensured that it gained > > > some traction in the Indian society. Pakistan's military conflicts > > > with "Hindu" India only amplified this. > > > > > > It only takes a few of decades of intense activity for a new Zeitgeist > > > to take root in a society. Consider denazification of Germany, China's > > > turn into capitalism, and India's own economic liberalisation. 30 > > > years – that is all it takes for a young generation to grow up shaped > > > by a pervasive ideology. > > > > > > Though quite smaller than India, Pakistan is by no means a tiny > > > nation. It is the world's 6th most populous country, one of its major > > > economies, and a prominent player during the cold war. One cannot find > > > fault with it - Pakistan had to defend its national philosophy. It has > > > expended a tremendous amount of national effort over the last 60 years > > > in achieving a strong association between subcontinental Islam and > > > itself. > > > > > > They have succeeded splendidly. Islam in the subcontinent today is > > > seen as prominently Pakistani and India's secular fabric warped by > > > that perception. Pakistan is an Islamic nation - this somehow gives > > > them a stronger claim on everything Islamic in the subcontinent. The > > > world simply does not recognise India's Islamic authenticity, and > > > neither do many Indians within. India continues to be associated > > > primarily with Hinduism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, but not Islam. > > > > > > Does religious brotherhood entirely negate the organic bonds a human > > > has to his ancestral land and its history, and to his fellow humans > > > who share the same bonds as him? I don't really know. What I do know > > > is that this is not the principle on which the Indian republic was > > > founded, and its definitely not an Indian value. Religious supremacism > > > and breaking up of Indian people are un-Indian philosophies. It goes > > > against the very spirit of our freedom struggle, nationalism, and our > > > constitution. > > > > > > Indians must remember that new Pakistani generations do not even have > > > the same right to speak for India's Muslims that their earlier > > > generations might have had. Indian democracy has proven this > > > unnecessary anyway. > > > > > > Indo-Pak culture-drift and attempts at an unnatural bonhomie > > > > > > There is a delusion among the political class and Indian people that > > > our shared past can be used to achieve friendly relations between > > > India and Pakistan. My view is that in doing so, we are only > > > reinforcing the internal Islam-Pakistan hyphenation. > > > > > > When historical developments asunder a people, over a period of time > > > the newly formed groups drift increasingly farther from one another. > > > Once upon time, Myanmar and Sri Lanka were part of India, just like > > > Pakistan and Bangladesh. Afghanistan was part of several Indian > > > empires. Today, though at a national level we have very cordial > > > relations, they are distinctly unfamiliar to us. > > > > > > Such a natural drift has definitely taken place between India and > > > Pakistan. The strongest bond between us that keeps us in each others' > > > national memories is not anything positive that we share, but the > > > acrid legacy of partition. It's hard for me as an Indian, for > > > instance, to imagine such an Islamism taking hold of Pakistan if it > > > were under Akbar's rule. That is, if it were under genuinely > > > Indian-style Islamic rule. > > > > > > I am not suggesting we should actively pursue enmity with Pakistan or > > > vilify it. However, its being clumped together with Indian Muslims is > > > simply not healthy for India. What has Pakistan's 'leadership' of > > > subcontinental Muslims, its advocacy of religious supremacism within, > > > and its enmity with India effectively accomplished? It has robbed > > > India of its genuine Islamic authenticity in the world's eyes, and > > > caused non-Muslim Indians to reject the culture of an un-Indian enemy. > > > Pakistan has highlighted Indian Muslims' being Islamic and > > =3E consistently de-emphasized their being Indian. > > > > > > Pursuing an unnatural bonhomie with Pakistan and stressing our > > > similarities with them will only weaken our case for our differences, > > > which are very real. To uphold our national interest, we must assert > > > and amplify these differences. > > > > > > Replace Islam-Pakistan hyphenation with Islam-India hyphenation in the > > > subcontinent > > > > > > I urge Indians to spearhead a change of perception of Islam in the > > > subcontinent. Anything that prevents Indian Muslims' fully asserting > > > their claim on India as Indian citizens is against the national > > > interest. The strong association in India between subcontinental Islam > > > and the present day un-Indian Pakistan must go. > > > > > > It is tempting to claim that all South Asian countries share Islamic > > > civilization equally. It may be polite and civil to do so, and it may > > > even have some historical merit, but it's a weak claim for our > > > purposes. It doesn't have the necessary boldness and self-conviction > > > to be effective. It also doesn't forcefully argue for India's Islamic > > > authenticity. Our aim is to end Islam-Pakistan hyphenation for the > > > welfare of a billion humans, not to be fair observers of history. We > > > must hence push the strongest nationalistic claim possible: Islam in > > > the subcontinent is Indian, and it always has been. > > > > > > Indian Islam never 'went' anywhere – it is alive and well amidst us. > > > Our nationalism and constitution are guarantees that it will > > > thrive if > > > Pakistan would let go of it. When the world thinks of Hinduism in > > > South Asia, it thinks of India. Sikhism, it thinks of India. Buddhism, > > > India. When it thinks of Islam in South Asia, it must think of India. > > > Everyone in the subcontinent will be better off. Everyone. > > > > > > The idea that Islam in the subcontinent is primarily Indian can gain > > > currency only through a concerted nationalist campaign. No apologies > > > should be made for such a movement. No one need be convinced of its > > > proponents' "patriotism". The obvious worthiness of the cause, its > > > truth, and its urgency are justifications enough. > > > > > > What ideas might such a campaign seek to make current? > > > > > > The countries in our region share an intertwined, messy history. We > > > have a lot in common - languages, religions, culture, quirks - all > > > part of our common and colourful heritage. > > > > > > However, if our historical and religious assets must be divided > > > amongst us, then the worthiest inheritor of Islamic heritage in the > > > subcontinent can only be India. Not Pakistan, not Bangladesh, not Sri > > > Lanka, not Myanmar, not Nepal. India is the only nation that has been > > > true to the historical spirit of Indian Islam – that of flourishing > > > alongside other Indic faiths in India. > > > > > > Slay our demons ourselves > > > > > > Has it ever struck you that in our country, we have a vicious > > > circularity of the following sort: we feel dismayed that the > > > country/political class/leadership has done nothing for us; a form of > > > apathy and resignation sets in; the country/political class/leadership > > > continues to do nothing; we feel increasingly more dismayed. > > > > > > We are a democracy. We individually must act. Things won't happen > > > if we don't. > > > I urge Indians to assert India's secularism and nationalism to fight > > > alienation of the Muslim community from Indian mainstream. This battle > > > is the easier one to win – there are hundreds of millions of > > > reasonable Indians, the Indian constitution, the liberal press, the > > > legacy of our freedom-generation, and truth and justice on our side. > > > > > > I also urge Indians to fight Pakistani supremacy of subcontinental > > > Islam from the outside. That is the root of all our problems. That is > > > the key battle in India's war against communalism. We must learn to > > > say, "Thanks, but no thanks. I understand what you mean, but this is > > > not really true" to anyone who stresses commonalities of any sort in > > > the subcontinent. > > > > > > Who will go first? > > > > > > Based on the concept of ownership of our destiny, what are the answers > > > to these questions: > > > > > > "But how can non-Muslims claim that Islam in the subcontinent is > > > Indian when it is represented by Pakistan and Indian Muslims > > > themselves imply so?" > > > > > > "How can Indian Muslims make the Indo-centric claim when there is a > > > genuine sense of their alienation in India and rest of Indian society > > > accuses them of siding with Pakistan. We cannot move against Pakstani > > > Muslims. There is a lot in common between us." > > > > > > I don't know! I am definitely going, in my own way. That I know. I > > > will not ever treat any Indian by as automatically allied with a > > > foreign, inimical power. I will continue making people aware of the > > > need to end the subcontinental Islam-Pakistan association and replace > > > it with Islam-India. > > > > > > We shall NOT vilify. We shall have faith. > > > > > > Indians should stop vilifying each other. Not because it would be > > > saintly to do so, but because it only weakens our unity. > > > > > > Our nationalism and our constitution are solid stuff. Our greatest > > > generation did their job well. If we must challenge our fellow > > > Indians, invoke these instruments. Face with stead-fast stoicism any > > > slurs, any accusations of you being an anti-Indian Muslim or a > > > communal Hindutvawadi. Let the diatribe die down. Repeat your > > > arguments invoking our nationalism, constitution, and your reasoning > > > again. Do not ask anyone to 'prove' his or her patriotism. It's > > > demeaning to do so. > > > > > > Satyameva Jayate – truth alone triumphs. If you are right, you will > > > win. Have faith in our country and in every Indians' goodness and > > > genuine attachment to their land. > > > > > > Augmenting India's ideological basis > > > > > > Earlier I mentioned that our work on Indian nationhood is not a frozen > > > process, but a continuing one. We can and must correct any earlier > > > mistakes that continue to torment India's communal harmony. > > > > > > If the greatest challenge the freedom-generation faced was ending the > > > British rule and forming a stable republic, the greatest challenge > > > before us is to take back leadership of subcontinental Islam from > > > Pakistan. Our challenge is to do this without sacrificing India's > > > secular nature. > > > > > > To tackle our new communal challenges in the 21st century, I propose > > > the following: > > > 1. Secularism will continue to remain the Indian union's lynch > > > pin. It > > > should not, however, require any particular religious group's giving > > > up their right to assert religious solidarity. We should genuinely > > > address any concerns about hypocrisy in the name of secularism. > > > > > > 2. India is a mature concept, and we should actively use it to tackle > > > the challenges before us. Secularism is an integral part of our > > > nationhood and a historically irreversible development. It follows > > > that religionalism – wherever it is practised – is distinctly > > > un-Indian. Within India, it is also anti-Indian in the sense that they > > > weaken India and goes against its spirit. > > > > > > 3. The natural heir to Islamic civilisation in the subcontinent is > > > India. Subcontinental Islam has always been an Indian phenomenon. > > > Pakistan's oft-reinforced association with Indian Muslims must be > > > destroyed. > > > > > > 4. India's brotherhood with its neighbours is dying. Soon there will > > > be an Indian generation which doesn't have a single Indian born before > > > partition. Every single human in the subcontinent would have been born > > > in the countries as they existed after partition. The continuing > > > attempts to maintain an unnatural bonhomie with India's hostile > > > neighbours is not a tenable project - Pakistan has moved too far away > > > from what was once India. > > > > > > Indian Muslims. India's Islam. > > > > > > A shockingly large amount of our national energy is wasted in > > > countering the effects of Islam-Pakistan hyphenation in the > > > subcontinent. > > > > > > The solution is simple. Reclaim the part of Indian identity that was > > > robbed of us some 60 years back. If India is Hindu, then for similar > > > reasons, it is also Buddhist, Sikh, Christian - and Islamic. Purported > > > authority over sub-continental Islam by other entities in the > > > subcontinent is an outrageous farce that must be ended right away. > > > > > > There is no obligation to do this meekly. India doesn't have > > > merely a > > > substantial claim or merely an equal claim. It simply has more right > > > to subcontinental Islamic heritage than anyone else by an > > > overwhelmingly large margin, period. We must use it for our national > > > well-being. > > > > > > Who can assert subcontinental Islam's Indian nature boldly, loudly, > > > without an iota of self-doubt or hesitation? Who needs this to be done > > > most urgently? Who suffers from a deprivation of their right to belong > > > to India the most? The Hindus? Sikhs? Buddhists? Christians? Jains? > > > Clearly not. Who else? > > > > > > The Indian Muslims. The others are left distinctly poorer and their > > > country's communal harmony stressed, but their Indian genuineness is > > > unquestioned within India and the world over. There is not going > > > to be > > > an un-Indian leader-nation for India's Sikhs, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists > > > and Christians in our neighbourhood any time soon. > > > > > > http://indianmuslims.in/indias-islam/ > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking > for last minute shopping deals? > > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping_________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > _________________________________________________________________ > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=220 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > From asitredsalute at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 13:49:30 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:49:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. In-Reply-To: References: <518230.19941.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: i dont understand why this irratinal demand to hang afzal what is the evidence against him whats the reality behind the attack on indian parliament what is the role of ib and other agencies do we know about them conclusively lets not forget the fire on reichstag by the naziz themselves who knows the real truth about the attack on indian parliament the more fundamental question is why afzal be hanged why not modi and advani for killing thosands of innocent muslims asit On Jan 23, 2008 1:37 PM, Asit asitreds wrote: > this pioson we and them is dangorous why cant we behave as indians and > focus on serious issues like unemloyment poverty etc communalism is a > dangouros gameplan to divide poor working indians and deflect srious issue > inthe end helping the rulers and the exploiters nothing different from > british colonisers > asit > > > On Jan 20, 2008 6:23 PM, chanchal malviya > wrote: > > > How many bombs you have thrown.. > > Ask this to them... Not us... > > We are reacting.. They are acting... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Krishna Chaithanya < tulunadu at hotmail.com> > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:19:37 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > > > Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on > > the society....!? > > > > We bomb them > > and they bomb us > > and we bomb them > > and they bomb us > > together we bomb us > > then who is left to bomb...? > > > > KC > > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:33:09 +0500 > > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > > > Hi, true, it for too long hindus have been tolerent leading to a > > sarcastic comment that they are cowards, may be Nehru was coward when India > > was divided for his greed,may be Krishna menon loved chinese vaginas more > > than indian ones, but now it is time that hindu understood the value of > > SAMA, Dana, BHEDHA are over, dandam dashagunam bhaveth. Violence can be > > stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: chanchal malviya > > > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:24 am > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > To: Javed , reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > It is time for Hindus to rise now... > > > > And no dicussion or virtual communities can stop it... > > > > > > > > Swami Vivekanand said - India have enough of religion.. > > > > And it is time now to say this to Christian and Muslims who force > > > > conversions the same thing.. > > > > If Sanskrit is the mother of all languages, Hinduism is the mother > > > > of all Religions... (But two religions have in particular always > > > > learnt to abuse their mother(Hinduism) - Islam and Christianity)... > > > > It is time now to stop the nation from producing more Kashmirs... > > > > It is time now to stop the non-Independent Religious India... > > > > > > > > So go on my dear friends as much as you like to abuse Hindus.. > > > > It hardly matters now.. > > > > > > > > Ramayan is proving to be a reality, Mahabharat is a reality.. > > > > History will also change.. > > > > It is Hindus that have taught peace to the world.. but to do that > > > > again, the two attackers have to be checked now.. > > > > People are doing that.. And will do that.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: Javed < javedmasoo at gmail.com> > > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 6:00:16 PM > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > > > > > India's Islam > > > > by Arun Nair > > > > > > > > Firstly, I must apologise if this article smacks of an impolite > > > > urgency and prescriptive-ness. I mean not to be arrogant, but as > > > > someone addressing you on a matter of deep concern to us all, I felt > > > > that there was little room for ceremonial apologies before every > > > > sentence. Also, as an Indian middle-class Hindu who grew up in the > > > > Babri-masjid 90s, it is easy for me to say some of the things I say > > > > here. > > > > > > > > Secondly, I address you, the reader, as an Indian citizen, not as a > > > > saintly Kabir or Gandhi preaching love for humanity. Our collective > > > > interests are being threatened by communal forces from within and > > > > without. WE MUST ACT. We must not merely lament about our respective > > > > versions of helplessnesses and others' faults. We are free today > > > > because India's greatest generation shook off the ghosts that > > > > bedevilled them, and took action to protect our interests. I implore > > > > you to continue that legacy. > > > > > > > > Thirdly, while I will go into what in my opinion are highly > > plausible > > > > theories of Indian nationhood and nationalism, my primary aim here > > is > > > > not to write any treatise on politics or sociology, but to protect > > our > > > > rights to belong equally to India – our common ancestral land – as > > > > Indians, and as free, dignified humans. > > > > > > > > Fourthly, my ideas will be presented largely based on first > > > > principles, also known as common-sense. > > > > > > > > My thesis is this: India must boldly assert its claim on Islamic > > > > civilisation in the subcontinent. That is the key to end our > > communal > > > > woes. > > > > > > > > This does not mean that India must become Islamic, or that Indian > > > > Muslims must be somehow Hinduised. The idea, instead, is to campaign > > > > > > relentlessly for India's Islamic civilisational authenticity. > > > > > > > > In the Indian psyche, Pakistan stands for Islam. Sadly for us and > > > > admittedly in a weaker form, Islam is also synonymous with Pakistan > > > > and everything Pakistani. This wouldn't have been so bad if Pakistan > > > > wasn't, well, un-Indian. We must use every tool at our disposal as a > > > > people to destroy the entrenched idea of Pakistani ownership of > > > > subcontinental Islam from within India. More importantly, this idea > > > > must be attacked from without it, because that is where it > > originates. > > > > > > > > Our chief weapon to eliminate Islam-Pakistan hyphenation from the > > > > subcontinent will be an authentic claim: the centre of Islamic > > > > civilisation in South Asia has always been undivided India, and > > after > > > > partition, India is its natural primary heir. The fact that a few > > > > million Muslims left India during partition to settle in our > > erstwhile > > > > outlying provinces doesn't change this. Neither does the fact that > > the > > > > Indian people chose a progressive, secular, democratic polity for > > > > their republic. > > > > > > > > In our minds and in the world's view, subcontinental Islam is under > > > > Pakistani occupation. The historical Indo-centric nature of > > > > subcontinental Islam should be used to throw off this psychological > > > > yoke. I urge Indians to rally together once again as our greatest > > > > generation did to protect our collective interests as the people of > > > > India. I urge friends of India all over the world to join us. Both > > in > > > > terms of geography and spirit, Islam in the subcontinent that > > > > coexisted and flourished alongside Indic cultures, has always been > > > > more Indian than Pakistani. If any single country represents > > > > subcontinental Islam as it historically was, it is India. Not > > > > Pakistan. > > > > > > > > India's Mughals. India's Qutub Minar, Gol Gumaz, and Taj Mahal. > > > > India's Kabir. India's Tipu Sultan, Shah Jahan, Akbar, and, why not, > > > > > > Aurangazeb. India's Urdu. India's Ghalib and Khusro. India's Delhi, > > > > Lucknow, Mysore, Hyderabad, Malabar, and Agra. > > > > > > > > Good history has to be deliberately written > > > > > > > > The people of India inherited thousands of years of history and > > > > associated baggage that we didn't really ask for. > > > > > > > > Keep in mind though that history is not a dead object - it is > > > > unfurling even as you read this. We may not be able to change what > > > > happened in India 200 years ago. But 200 years from now when people > > > > look back, they will see the Indian history that our generation > > wrote. > > > > It becomes then our duty, both as Indians and as sensible humans, to > > > > write it well. > > > > > > > > It is a great privilege to deliberately be able to write a part of > > > > something grand like the history of India. The first generation of > > > > Indians who did a coordinated job of writing our history was the one > > > > that won us our independence – our "freedom-generation". They could > > > > have attempted to write their Indian chapter any way they wanted to. > > > > > > We could have had a dark, China-style communism, for instance. But, > > > > given the Indian context, the freedom-generation chose the most > > > > egalitarian, elegant, and humanist theme they could come up with: a > > > > secular, liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, that takes > > its > > > > strength from its inherent pluralism and its inheritance of one of > > > > mankind's greatest civilisations. > > > > > > > > The freedom-generation's legacy for us is the deliberate and > > > > intelligent manner in which they forged an Indian national identity. > > > > Thanks to their efforts, our nationality is a solid concept. An > > Indian > > > > from Karnataka has a robust nationalistic bond with Indians say from > > > > Punjab, Gujarat, Assam, or Delhi. Regardless of what languages we > > > > speak, we all recognise Marathi, Tamil, Bengali and Telugu as Indian > > > > > > languages – ancestral assets that all Indians collectively own. > > > > > > > > It is a mistake, however, to think that the nation-building task > > they > > > > began is complete. Indian nationalism is not an idea frozen in time, > > > > > > but an evolving one. We, the successors of India's > > freedom-generation, > > > > must exercise our prerogative to define its finer contours and bring > > > > in new ideas to enrich it. Furthermore, we have an obligation to > > both > > > > our founding fathers and India's posterity to do this while being > > true > > > > to our quintessential Indian-ness, the just, egalitarian nature of > > our > > > > country as embodied in our constitution. > > > > > > > > Given that India's situation is not as pressing as it once was, new > > > > nationalist leaders – giants of the stature of Mahatma Gandhi, Khan > > > > Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Subhash Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh, Jawaharlal > > > > Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad or Vallabhai Patel – may be difficult to > > > > emerge. There is no need to though. We succeeded them, and we must > > > > take this task upon ourselves. The freedom-generation watches over > > us > > > > in the form of our fraternity as Indians which they moulded at a > > great > > > > cost, and our constitution. > > > > > > > > Indian Nationalism - the idea of Indian brotherhood > > > > > > > > Amidst all this noisy consternation of Taslima Nasrin, Babri-masjid, > > > > > > BJP-Congress etc., its easy to lose sight of the really big > > pictures. > > > > Consider, for instance, this question: what really is the essence of > > > > Indian nationalism? Why do we all feel so closely tied to India > > > > and to > > > > each other? > > > > > > > > My answer is that, to put it simply, without the land we call India, > > > > Indians either have no identity, or very anaemic identities. All > > > > Indians share this same curious relation to India. > > > > When we are born to the same human mother, we are brothers. Our > > > > constitution formed by our freedom-generation explicitly asserts > > > > fraternity among the Indian people. Fraternity – brotherhood. In > > what > > > > sense are we brothers? > > > > > > > > Indians are brothers in the sense that the motherland that birthed > > my > > > > identity, also birthed yours. India is our ancestral land, and we > > > > should be proud of everything associated with it. Everything in > > India, > > > > its religions, its good and its bad, its languages, its glories and > > > > struggles, its rivers, its emperors, its heroes and villains, > > > > everything – is intricately weaved into our consciousnesses of who > > we > > > > are, where we come from, what our place in this world is, and how > > > > other humans see us. Without that identity, we are crippled. > > > > > > > > Ours is no ordinary brotherhood. Indian people didn't come into > > being > > > > merely a few centuries ago. We are an ancient civilisation, and what > > > > we have is a civlisational brotherhood – a bond arising from all of > > > > our belonging to the civilisation that unfolded in the same land, > > > > India. That brotherhood was formally declared through the > > constitution > > > > in 1949, but it existed much before that. Before our greatest > > > > generation gave it a concrete wording in the 20th century, it was > > well > > > > moulded in the crucible that is our land, in the fire of the > > previous > > > > several dozen, if not more, centuries. > > > > > > > > Every country of the world has stories that define their national > > > > essences. What is the most essential feature of Indian > > > > nationalism? It > > > > is our Indian identity – our being tied to India, and our > > > > civilisational brotherhood to each other in being bonded so. All > > > > Indians, regardless of their religion or language, has this bond > > with > > > > India and with each other. > > > > Indians must pause for a while and think why our anthem's going over > > > > our landmarks is so emotive. Or why Hindu-Muslim-Sikh-Christian > > > > insignia are powerful. Or why merely thinking of our history, or our > > > > Kerala, Karnataka, Maharashtra, UP, Punjab and Bengal moves all of > > us > > > > equally. > > > > > > > > It's because they remind us of our organic ties to India, and the > > > > brotherhood that we have with each other. This natural bond given to > > > > us by our glorious and at times bloody history is important. If we > > > > don't uphold this bond with the ferocity that our greatest > > generation > > > > did, if we don't use it to protect our common interests, our country > > > > will remain weak. > > > > > > > > Our country's nature > > > > > > > > What is the nature of our country? What does it mean for something > > > > to be Indian? > > > > For one, if all of us Indians could get together today and declare > > in > > > > one voice that India stands for certain values, then that would be > > an > > > > authoritative statement. India is what Indians say it is. If, say, > > the > > > > people of the then-Indian civilisation – Hindus, Muslims, > > Christians, > > > > Buddhists, Sikhs, and Jains – had made such a statement 400 years > > ago > > > > and preserved its spirit through centuries, that would have probably > > > > > > have been one of the greatest Indian texts. > > > > > > > > If you will recall, a very similar event actually did happen in > > 1949, > > > > when the founding fathers of the Indian republic adopted, enacted, > > and > > > > gave to ourselves - the sovereign people of India - our > > constitution. > > > > The preamble reads, > > > > > > > > "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute > > India > > > > into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure > > > > to all its citizens: > > > > JUSTICE, social, economic and political; > > > > LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; > > > > EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among them all > > > > FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and > > > > integrity of the Nation. > > > > IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, > > > > > > do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION." > > > > > > > > In an absolute sense, the values of justice, liberty, and equality > > > > have an intuitive appeal to all humans everywhere. However, the > > > > formidable authority of our constitution comes from the crushed but > > > > proud people who paid a very high price for our right to live as > > > > equals and as dignified humans in India. We must take their word for > > > > > > what India is – they must have known and dreamt quite a bit about > > it. > > > > > > > > India's greatest generation definitely realised that divisivism, > > > > self-doubt, and other demons from our past would haunt the republic > > > > they formed. Which is why the constitution is important. It helps us > > > > protect our country from ourselves. > > > > > > > > The Constitution. Indian Nationalism. How we will defend India. > > > > > > > > Those who doubt the moral power of our freedom-generation, our > > > > constitutional ethos, and Indian nationalism need only look at > > > > Pakistan, which renounced all these in its attempts not to be seen > > as > > > > Indian. Pakistan's leaders, in trying to defend their divisve > > national > > > > philosophy, forced the most horrible bankruptcy on its people. > > > > > > > > Rather than using Indian nationalism and the constitution to tackle > > > > our communal issues, I am appalled at the general trend to merely > > > > lament that India is on its way to being declared an non-secular > > state > > > > - the hundreds of millions of Indians fully intent on preventing > > this > > > > notwithstanding. > > > > > > > > Pakistan-style Islamism, Ummah-isation of Hinduism, alienation of > > > > Indian Muslims > > > > > > > > There are three major trends in India today that are relevant to > > > > our topic. > > > > > > > > Firstly, India has very serious conflicts of interest with Pakistan. > > > > We have gone to war with that country several times. Its society has > > > > issues with radicalisation and a general religious orthodoxy. Its > > > > regimes have relentlessly attacked India's internal fault-lines over > > > > the past few decades in the name of Islam. Tens of thousands of > > Indian > > > > soldiers have died defending our country against them. It is > > > > distinctly un-Indian and anti-Indian. > > > > > > > > Secondly, Hinduism is, for the lack of a better word, Ummah-ising, > > and > > > > this at times takes horrifyingly militant forms. I, given my > > personal > > > > biases, am all for Hindu solidarity and abolishing > > pseudo-secularism. > > > > However, an argument for Hindu-solidarity should not be allowed to > > > > take the form of an un-Indian religionalism that goes against the > > very > > > > spirit of India. > > > > > > > > Thirdly, Indian Muslims feel alienated from their own country. In > > > > India, Pakistan is synonymous with Islam. Unfortunately, Islam is > > also > > > > weakly synonymous with Pakistan. This has significantly undermined > > > > Indian Muslims' political standing in India vis-a-vis their fellow > > > > citizens. > > > > > > > > The havoc all this has wreaked on our society must not be ignored. > > > > India was home to one of humanity's greatest Islamic cultures for > > well > > > > over 1000 years. It is not, by any means, a dead part of our > > > > culture - > > > > nearly 160 million Indians are Muslims, several national icons are > > > > Muslims, mosques and Islamic architecture litter the country, and > > > > Muslim holidays are shared by all. And yet, to a lot of Indians, > > Islam > > > > doesn't feel Indian, but Pakistani. Despite their respective > > religious > > > > majorities, it is odd that Buddhism doesn't feel Sri Lankan, or > > > > Hinduism itself, Nepali. > > > > > > > > The partition of India and secular India's deprivation of its > > Islamic > > > > authenticity > > > > > > > > Has anyone thought what has actually happened here? Why is it that > > in > > > > India, an ancient civilisational land which has a unique Islamic > > > > culture just like Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, Islam is seen as somehow > > > > foreign? That is not because of Islam's being inconsistent with > > India > > > > – 1000 years and more of history and our combined freedom struggle > > > > should have proven this by now. > > > > > > > > During partition, founders of Pakistan expropriated the > > subcontinent's > > > > Islamic identity for defining their nation, Pakistan. Pakistan's > > > > struggle to keep its ideology alive has robbed us of our Islamic > > > > authenticity. India's secular nature not-withstanding, the ardour > > with > > > > which Pakistan argued itsideology and pushed its exclusivist > > national > > > > philosophy within the larger Islamic community ensured that it > > gained > > > > some traction in the Indian society. Pakistan's military conflicts > > > > with "Hindu" India only amplified this. > > > > > > > > It only takes a few of decades of intense activity for a new > > Zeitgeist > > > > to take root in a society. Consider denazification of Germany, > > China's > > > > turn into capitalism, and India's own economic liberalisation. 30 > > > > years – that is all it takes for a young generation to grow up > > shaped > > > > by a pervasive ideology. > > > > > > > > Though quite smaller than India, Pakistan is by no means a tiny > > > > nation. It is the world's 6th most populous country, one of its > > major > > > > economies, and a prominent player during the cold war. One cannot > > find > > > > fault with it - Pakistan had to defend its national philosophy. It > > has > > > > expended a tremendous amount of national effort over the last 60 > > years > > > > in achieving a strong association between subcontinental Islam and > > > > itself. > > > > > > > > They have succeeded splendidly. Islam in the subcontinent today is > > > > seen as prominently Pakistani and India's secular fabric warped by > > > > that perception. Pakistan is an Islamic nation - this somehow gives > > > > them a stronger claim on everything Islamic in the subcontinent. The > > > > world simply does not recognise India's Islamic authenticity, and > > > > neither do many Indians within. India continues to be associated > > > > primarily with Hinduism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, but not Islam. > > > > > > > > Does religious brotherhood entirely negate the organic bonds a human > > > > has to his ancestral land and its history, and to his fellow humans > > > > who share the same bonds as him? I don't really know. What I do know > > > > is that this is not the principle on which the Indian republic was > > > > founded, and its definitely not an Indian value. Religious > > supremacism > > > > and breaking up of Indian people are un-Indian philosophies. It goes > > > > against the very spirit of our freedom struggle, nationalism, and > > our > > > > constitution. > > > > > > > > Indians must remember that new Pakistani generations do not even > > have > > > > the same right to speak for India's Muslims that their earlier > > > > generations might have had. Indian democracy has proven this > > > > unnecessary anyway. > > > > > > > > Indo-Pak culture-drift and attempts at an unnatural bonhomie > > > > > > > > There is a delusion among the political class and Indian people that > > > > our shared past can be used to achieve friendly relations between > > > > India and Pakistan. My view is that in doing so, we are only > > > > reinforcing the internal Islam-Pakistan hyphenation. > > > > > > > > When historical developments asunder a people, over a period of time > > > > the newly formed groups drift increasingly farther from one another. > > > > > > Once upon time, Myanmar and Sri Lanka were part of India, just like > > > > Pakistan and Bangladesh. Afghanistan was part of several Indian > > > > empires. Today, though at a national level we have very cordial > > > > relations, they are distinctly unfamiliar to us. > > > > > > > > Such a natural drift has definitely taken place between India and > > > > Pakistan. The strongest bond between us that keeps us in each > > others' > > > > national memories is not anything positive that we share, but the > > > > acrid legacy of partition. It's hard for me as an Indian, for > > > > instance, to imagine such an Islamism taking hold of Pakistan if it > > > > were under Akbar's rule. That is, if it were under genuinely > > > > Indian-style Islamic rule. > > > > > > > > I am not suggesting we should actively pursue enmity with Pakistan > > or > > > > vilify it. However, its being clumped together with Indian Muslims > > is > > > > simply not healthy for India. What has Pakistan's 'leadership' of > > > > subcontinental Muslims, its advocacy of religious supremacism > > within, > > > > and its enmity with India effectively accomplished? It has robbed > > > > India of its genuine Islamic authenticity in the world's eyes, and > > > > caused non-Muslim Indians to reject the culture of an un-Indian > > enemy. > > > > Pakistan has highlighted Indian Muslims' being Islamic and > > > =3E consistently de-emphasized their being Indian. > > > > > > > > Pursuing an unnatural bonhomie with Pakistan and stressing our > > > > similarities with them will only weaken our case for our > > differences, > > > > which are very real. To uphold our national interest, we must assert > > > > and amplify these differences. > > > > > > > > Replace Islam-Pakistan hyphenation with Islam-India hyphenation in > > the > > > > subcontinent > > > > > > > > I urge Indians to spearhead a change of perception of Islam in the > > > > subcontinent. Anything that prevents Indian Muslims' fully asserting > > > > their claim on India as Indian citizens is against the national > > > > interest. The strong association in India between subcontinental > > Islam > > > > and the present day un-Indian Pakistan must go. > > > > > > > > It is tempting to claim that all South Asian countries share Islamic > > > > > > civilization equally. It may be polite and civil to do so, and it > > may > > > > even have some historical merit, but it's a weak claim for our > > > > purposes. It doesn't have the necessary boldness and self-conviction > > > > > > to be effective. It also doesn't forcefully argue for India's > > Islamic > > > > authenticity. Our aim is to end Islam-Pakistan hyphenation for the > > > > welfare of a billion humans, not to be fair observers of history. We > > > > > > must hence push the strongest nationalistic claim possible: Islam in > > > > the subcontinent is Indian, and it always has been. > > > > > > > > Indian Islam never 'went' anywhere – it is alive and well amidst us. > > > > > > Our nationalism and constitution are guarantees that it will > > > > thrive if > > > > Pakistan would let go of it. When the world thinks of Hinduism in > > > > South Asia, it thinks of India. Sikhism, it thinks of India. > > Buddhism, > > > > India. When it thinks of Islam in South Asia, it must think of > > India. > > > > Everyone in the subcontinent will be better off. Everyone. > > > > > > > > The idea that Islam in the subcontinent is primarily Indian can gain > > > > > > currency only through a concerted nationalist campaign. No apologies > > > > should be made for such a movement. No one need be convinced of its > > > > proponents' "patriotism". The obvious worthiness of the cause, its > > > > truth, and its urgency are justifications enough. > > > > > > > > What ideas might such a campaign seek to make current? > > > > > > > > The countries in our region share an intertwined, messy history. We > > > > have a lot in common - languages, religions, culture, quirks - all > > > > part of our common and colourful heritage. > > > > > > > > However, if our historical and religious assets must be divided > > > > amongst us, then the worthiest inheritor of Islamic heritage in the > > > > subcontinent can only be India. Not Pakistan, not Bangladesh, not > > Sri > > > > Lanka, not Myanmar, not Nepal. India is the only nation that has > > been > > > > true to the historical spirit of Indian Islam – that of flourishing > > > > alongside other Indic faiths in India. > > > > > > > > Slay our demons ourselves > > > > > > > > Has it ever struck you that in our country, we have a vicious > > > > circularity of the following sort: we feel dismayed that the > > > > country/political class/leadership has done nothing for us; a form > > of > > > > apathy and resignation sets in; the country/political > > class/leadership > > > > continues to do nothing; we feel increasingly more dismayed. > > > > > > > > We are a democracy. We individually must act. Things won't happen > > > > if we don't. > > > > I urge Indians to assert India's secularism and nationalism to fight > > > > > > alienation of the Muslim community from Indian mainstream. This > > battle > > > > is the easier one to win – there are hundreds of millions of > > > > reasonable Indians, the Indian constitution, the liberal press, the > > > > legacy of our freedom-generation, and truth and justice on our side. > > > > > > > > I also urge Indians to fight Pakistani supremacy of subcontinental > > > > Islam from the outside. That is the root of all our problems. That > > is > > > > the key battle in India's war against communalism. We must learn to > > > > say, "Thanks, but no thanks. I understand what you mean, but this is > > > > not really true" to anyone who stresses commonalities of any sort in > > > > > > the subcontinent. > > > > > > > > Who will go first? > > > > > > > > Based on the concept of ownership of our destiny, what are the > > answers > > > > to these questions: > > > > > > > > "But how can non-Muslims claim that Islam in the subcontinent is > > > > Indian when it is represented by Pakistan and Indian Muslims > > > > themselves imply so?" > > > > > > > > "How can Indian Muslims make the Indo-centric claim when there is a > > > > genuine sense of their alienation in India and rest of Indian > > society > > > > accuses them of siding with Pakistan. We cannot move against > > Pakstani > > > > Muslims. There is a lot in common between us." > > > > > > > > I don't know! I am definitely going, in my own way. That I know. I > > > > will not ever treat any Indian by as automatically allied with a > > > > foreign, inimical power. I will continue making people aware of the > > > > need to end the subcontinental Islam-Pakistan association and > > replace > > > > it with Islam-India. > > > > > > > > We shall NOT vilify. We shall have faith. > > > > > > > > Indians should stop vilifying each other. Not because it would be > > > > saintly to do so, but because it only weakens our unity. > > > > > > > > Our nationalism and our constitution are solid stuff. Our greatest > > > > generation did their job well. If we must challenge our fellow > > > > Indians, invoke these instruments. Face with stead-fast stoicism any > > > > slurs, any accusations of you being an anti-Indian Muslim or a > > > > communal Hindutvawadi. Let the diatribe die down. Repeat your > > > > arguments invoking our nationalism, constitution, and your reasoning > > > > again. Do not ask anyone to 'prove' his or her patriotism. It's > > > > demeaning to do so. > > > > > > > > Satyameva Jayate – truth alone triumphs. If you are right, you will > > > > win. Have faith in our country and in every Indians' goodness and > > > > genuine attachment to their land. > > > > > > > > Augmenting India's ideological basis > > > > > > > > Earlier I mentioned that our work on Indian nationhood is not a > > frozen > > > > process, but a continuing one. We can and must correct any earlier > > > > mistakes that continue to torment India's communal harmony. > > > > > > > > If the greatest challenge the freedom-generation faced was ending > > the > > > > British rule and forming a stable republic, the greatest challenge > > > > before us is to take back leadership of subcontinental Islam from > > > > Pakistan. Our challenge is to do this without sacrificing India's > > > > secular nature. > > > > > > > > To tackle our new communal challenges in the 21st century, I propose > > > > > > the following: > > > > 1. Secularism will continue to remain the Indian union's lynch > > > > pin. It > > > > should not, however, require any particular religious group's giving > > > > up their right to assert religious solidarity. We should genuinely > > > > address any concerns about hypocrisy in the name of secularism. > > > > > > > > 2. India is a mature concept, and we should actively use it to > > tackle > > > > the challenges before us. Secularism is an integral part of our > > > > nationhood and a historically irreversible development. It follows > > > > that religionalism – wherever it is practised – is distinctly > > > > un-Indian. Within India, it is also anti-Indian in the sense that > > they > > > > weaken India and goes against its spirit. > > > > > > > > 3. The natural heir to Islamic civilisation in the subcontinent is > > > > India. Subcontinental Islam has always been an Indian phenomenon. > > > > Pakistan's oft-reinforced association with Indian Muslims must be > > > > destroyed. > > > > > > > > 4. India's brotherhood with its neighbours is dying. Soon there will > > > > be an Indian generation which doesn't have a single Indian born > > before > > > > partition. Every single human in the subcontinent would have been > > born > > > > in the countries as they existed after partition. The continuing > > > > attempts to maintain an unnatural bonhomie with India's hostile > > > > neighbours is not a tenable project - Pakistan has moved too far > > away > > > > from what was once India. > > > > > > > > Indian Muslims. India's Islam. > > > > > > > > A shockingly large amount of our national energy is wasted in > > > > countering the effects of Islam-Pakistan hyphenation in the > > > > subcontinent. > > > > > > > > The solution is simple. Reclaim the part of Indian identity that was > > > > robbed of us some 60 years back. If India is Hindu, then for similar > > > > > > reasons, it is also Buddhist, Sikh, Christian - and Islamic. > > Purported > > > > authority over sub-continental Islam by other entities in the > > > > subcontinent is an outrageous farce that must be ended right away. > > > > > > > > There is no obligation to do this meekly. India doesn't have > > > > merely a > > > > substantial claim or merely an equal claim. It simply has more right > > > > to subcontinental Islamic heritage than anyone else by an > > > > overwhelmingly large margin, period. We must use it for our national > > > > well-being. > > > > > > > > Who can assert subcontinental Islam's Indian nature boldly, loudly, > > > > without an iota of self-doubt or hesitation? Who needs this to be > > done > > > > most urgently? Who suffers from a deprivation of their right to > > belong > > > > to India the most? The Hindus? Sikhs? Buddhists? Christians? Jains? > > > > Clearly not. Who else? > > > > > > > > The Indian Muslims. The others are left distinctly poorer and their > > > > country's communal harmony stressed, but their Indian genuineness is > > > > unquestioned within India and the world over. There is not going > > > > to be > > > > an un-Indian leader-nation for India's Sikhs, Hindus, Jains, > > Buddhists > > > > and Christians in our neighbourhood any time soon. > > > > > > > > http://indianmuslims.in/indias-islam/ > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking > > for last minute shopping deals? > > > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping_________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > list > > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=220 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Wed Jan 23 18:00:10 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:30:10 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. In-Reply-To: References: <518230.19941.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Asit, Laal Saallaam, the issue here is something different, when the highest court of the nation finds the accused guilty after the trial court, sessions court, high court all have upheld the conviction of Afjal. And you of all intelligent, do not want him to be hanged for want of evidence. ! Well my reason is somewhat different, as far as I am concerned, humans can not kill by laws as they can not give life back to a person, so I am against capital punishment, but not for vote bank politics, not for the en-masse muslim votes.By your stated standards, how about death to politburo members of the left, ? And the CM of west bengal, who has used his cadres to kill innocents in Singur and nandigram in hundreds, in mass graves buried them for kickbacks of Salim group. ?Does it not stand to qualify by the standards you have set for duly elected chief minister of Gujarath and leader of the opposition in parliament.? The very same political outfit which brought in land reforms in Bengal, gave lands to landless poor, peasents and farmers, lived on their subscription and the politburo which even today extorts money in subscription from union members, which later led to close of the industies,built militant cadres to silence dissent in the party forums, and the party i n the hands of few goons of politburo, who do not contest any elections, need not preach of democratic values and upkeep of law in the nation as they have failed to uphold rights and justice in their own backyard. ! ----- Original Message ----- From: Asit asitreds Date: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:52 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > i dont understand why this irratinal demand to hang afzal what is the > evidence against him whats the reality behind the attack on indian > parliament what is the role of ib and other agencies do we know > about them > conclusively lets not forget the fire on reichstag by the naziz > themselveswho knows the real truth about the attack on indian > parliament the more > fundamental question is why afzal be hanged why not modi and > advani for > killing thosands of innocent muslims > asit > > > On Jan 23, 2008 1:37 PM, Asit asitreds > wrote: > > this pioson we and them is dangorous why cant we behave as > indians and > > focus on serious issues like unemloyment poverty etc communalism > is a > > dangouros gameplan to divide poor working indians and deflect > srious issue > > inthe end helping the rulers and the exploiters nothing > different from > > british colonisers > > asit > > > > > > On Jan 20, 2008 6:23 PM, chanchal malviya > > wrote: > > > > > How many bombs you have thrown.. > > > Ask this to them... Not us... > > > We are reacting.. They are acting... > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Krishna Chaithanya < tulunadu at hotmail.com> > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:19:37 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > > > > > > Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace > will be on > > > the society....!? > > > > > > We bomb them > > > and they bomb us > > > and we bomb them > > > and they bomb us > > > together we bomb us > > > then who is left to bomb...? > > > > > > KC > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:33:09 +0500 > > > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > > > > > Hi, true, it for too long hindus have been tolerent leading > to a > > > sarcastic comment that they are cowards, may be Nehru was > coward when India > > > was divided for his greed,may be Krishna menon loved chinese > vaginas more > > > than indian ones, but now it is time that hindu understood the > value of > > > SAMA, Dana, BHEDHA are over, dandam dashagunam bhaveth. > Violence can be > > > stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: chanchal malviya > > > > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:24 am > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > To: Javed , reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > > > It is time for Hindus to rise now... > > > > > And no dicussion or virtual communities can stop it... > > > > > > > > > > Swami Vivekanand said - India have enough of religion.. > > > > > And it is time now to say this to Christian and Muslims > who force > > > > > conversions the same thing.. > > > > > If Sanskrit is the mother of all languages, Hinduism is > the mother > > > > > of all Religions... (But two religions have in particular > always> > > > learnt to abuse their mother(Hinduism) - Islam and > Christianity)...> > > > It is time now to stop the nation from > producing more Kashmirs... > > > > > It is time now to stop the non-Independent Religious India... > > > > > > > > > > So go on my dear friends as much as you like to abuse Hindus.. > > > > > It hardly matters now.. > > > > > > > > > > Ramayan is proving to be a reality, Mahabharat is a reality.. > > > > > History will also change.. > > > > > It is Hindus that have taught peace to the world.. but to > do that > > > > > again, the two attackers have to be checked now.. > =3E > > > People are doing that.. And will do that.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > > From: Javed < javedmasoo at gmail.com> > > > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 6:00:16 PM > > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > > > > > > > India's Islam > > > > > by Arun Nair > > > > > > > > > > Firstly, I must apologise if this article smacks of an > impolite> > > > urgency and prescriptive-ness. I mean not to be > arrogant, but as > > > > > someone addressing you on a matter of deep concern to us > all, I felt > > > > > that there was little room for ceremonial apologies before > every> > > > sentence. Also, as an Indian middle-class Hindu who > grew up in the > > > > > Babri-masjid 90s, it is easy for me to say some of the > things I say > > > > > here. > > > > > > > > > > Secondly, I address you, the reader, as an Indian citizen, > not as a > > > > > saintly Kabir or Gandhi preaching love for humanity. Our > collective> > > > interests are being threatened by communal > forces from within and > > > > > without. WE MUST ACT. We must not merely lament about our > respective> > > > versions of helplessnesses and others' faults. > We are free today > > > > > because India's greatest generation shook off the ghosts that > > > > > bedevilled them, and took action to protect our interests. > I implore > > > > > you to continue that legacy. > > > > > > > > > > Thirdly, while I will go into what in my opinion are highly > > > plausible > > > > > theories of Indian nationhood and nationalism, my primary > aim here > > > is > > > > > not to write any treatise on politics or sociology, but to > protect> > our > > > > > rights to belong equally to India – our common ancestral > land – as > > > > > Indians, and as free, dignified humans. > > > > > > > > > > Fourthly, my ideas will be presented largely based on first > > > > > principles, also known as common-sense. > > > > > > > > > > My thesis is this: India must boldly assert its claim on > Islamic> > > > civilisation in the subcontinent. That is the key > to end our > > > communal > > > > > woes. > > > > > > > > > > This does not mean that India must become Islamic, or that > Indian> > > > Muslims must be somehow Hinduised. The idea, > instead, is to campaign > > > > > > > > relentlessly for India's Islamic civilisational authenticity. > > > > > > > > > > In the Indian psyche, Pakistan stands for Islam. Sadly for > us and > > > > > admittedly in a weaker form, Islam is also synonymous with > Pakistan> > > > and everything Pakistani. This wouldn't have been > so bad if Pakistan > > > > > wasn't, well, un-Indian. We must use every tool at our > disposal as a > > > > > people to destroy the entrenched idea of Pakistani > ownership of > > > > > subcontinental Islam from within India. More importantly, > this idea > > > > > must be attacked from without it, because that is where it > > > originates. > > > > > > > > > > Our chief weapon to eliminate Islam-Pakistan hyphenation > from the > > > > > subcontinent will be an authentic claim: the centre of Islamic > > > > > civilisation in South Asia has always been undivided > India, and > > > after > > > > > partition, India is its natural primary heir. The fact > that a few > > > > > million Muslims left India during partition to settle in our > > > erstwhile > > > > > outlying provinces doesn't change this. Neither does the > fact that > > > the > > > > > Indian people chose a progressive, secular, democratic > polity for > > > > > their republic. > > > > > > > > > > In our minds and in the world's view, subcontinental Islam > is under > > > > > Pakistani occupation. The historical Indo-centric nature of > > > > > subcontinental Islam should be used to throw off this > psychological> > > > yoke. I urge Indians to rally together once > again as our greatest > > > > > generation did to protect our collective interests as the > people of > > > > > India. I urge friends of India all over the world to join > us. Both > > > in > > > > > terms of geography and spirit, Islam in the subcontinent that > > > > > coexisted and flourished alongside Indic cultures, has > always been > > > > > more Indian than Pakistani. If any single country represents > > > > > subcontinental Islam as it historically was, it is India. Not > > > > > Pakistan. > > > > > > > > > > India's Mughals. India's Qutub Minar, Gol Gumaz, and Taj > Mahal.> > > > India's Kabir. India's Tipu Sultan, Shah Jahan, > Akbar, and, why not, > > > > > > > > Aurangazeb. India's Urdu. India's Ghalib and Khusro. > India's Delhi, > > > > > Lucknow, Mysore, Hyderabad, Malabar, and Agra. > > > > > > > > > > Good history has to be deliberately written > > > > > > > > > > The people of India inherited thousands of years of > history and > > > > > associated baggage that we didn't really ask for. > > > > > > > > > > Keep in mind though that history is not a dead object - it is > > > > > unfurling even as you read this. We may not be able to > change what > > > > > happened in India 200 years ago. But 200 years from now > when people > > > > > look back, they will see the Indian history that our > generation> > wrote. > > > > > It becomes then our duty, both as Indians and as sensible > humans, to > > > > > write it well. > > > > > > > > > > It is a great privilege to deliberately be able to write a > part of > > > > > something grand like the history of India. The first > generation of > > > > > Indians who did a coordinated job of writing our history > was the one > > > > > that won us our independence – our "freedom-generation". > They could > > > > > have attempted to write their Indian chapter any way they > wanted to. > > > > > > > > We could have had a dark, China-style communism, for > instance. But, > > > > > given the Indian context, the freedom-generation chose the > most> > > > egalitarian, elegant, and humanist theme they could > come up with: a > > > > > secular, liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, > that takes > > > its > > > > > strength from its inherent pluralism and its inheritance > of one of > > > > > mankind's greatest civilisations. > > > > > > > > > > The freedom-generation's legacy for us is the deliberate and > > > > > intelligent manner in which they forged an Indian national > identity.> > > > Thanks to their efforts, our nationality is a > solid concept. An > > > Indian > > > > > from Karnataka has a robust nationalistic bond with > Indians say from > > > > > Punjab, Gujarat, Assam, or Delhi. Regardless of what > languages we > > > > > speak, we all recognise Marathi, Tamil, Bengali and Telugu > as Indian > > > > > > > > languages – ancestral assets that all Indians collectively > own.> > > > > > > > > It is a mistake, however, to think that the nation- > building task > > > they > > > > > began is complete. Indian nationalism is not an idea > frozen in time, > > > > > > > > but an evolving one. We, the successors of India's > > > freedom-generation, > > > > > must exercise our prerogative to define its finer contours > and bring > > > > > in new ideas to enrich it. Furthermore, we have an > obligation to > > > both > > > > > our founding fathers and India's posterity to do this > while being > > > true > > > > > to our quintessential Indian-ness, the just, egalitarian > nature of > > > our > > > > > country as embodied in our constitution. > > > > > > > > > > Given that India's situation is not as pressing as it once > was, new > > > > > nationalist leaders – giants of the stature of Mahatma > Gandhi, Khan > > > > > Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Subhash Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh, > Jawaharlal> > > > Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad or Vallabhai Patel – may > be difficult to > > > > > emerge. There is no need to though. We succeeded them, and > we must > > > > > take this task upon ourselves. The freedom-generation > watches over > > > us > > > > > in the form of our fraternity as Indians which they > moulded at a > > > great > > > > > cost, and our constitution. > > > > > > > > > > Indian Nationalism - the idea of Indian brotherhood > > > > > > > > > > Amidst all this noisy consternation of Taslima Nasrin, > Babri-masjid, > > > > > > > > BJP-Congress etc., its easy to lose sight of the really big > > > pictures. > > > > > Consider, for instance, this question: what really is the > essence of > > > > > Indian nationalism? Why do we all feel so closely tied to > India> > > > and to > > > > > each other? > > > > > > > > > > My answer is that, to put it simply, without the land we > call India, > > > > > Indians either have no identity, or very anaemic > identities. All > > > > > Indians share this same curious relation to India. > > > > > When we are born to the same human mother, we are > brothers. Our > > > > > constitution formed by our freedom-generation explicitly > asserts> > > > fraternity among the Indian people. Fraternity – > brotherhood. In > > > what > > > > > sense are we brothers? > > > > > > > > > > Indians are brothers in the sense that the motherland that > birthed> > my > > > > > identity, also birthed yours. India is our ancestral land, > and we > > > > > should be proud of everything associated with it. > Everything in > > > India, > > > > > its religions, its good and its bad, its languages, its > glories and > > > > > struggles, its rivers, its emperors, its heroes and villains, > > > > > everything – is intricately weaved into our > consciousnesses of who > > > we > > > > > are, where we come from, what our place in this world is, > and how > > > > > other humans see us. Without that identity, we are crippled. > > > > > > > > > > Ours is no ordinary brotherhood. Indian people didn't come > into> > being > > > > > merely a few centuries ago. We are an ancient > civilisation, and what > > > > > we have is a civlisational brotherhood – a bond arising > from all of > > > > > our belonging to the civilisation that unfolded in the > same land, > > > > > India. That brotherhood was formally declared through the > > > constitution > > > > > in 1949, but it existed much before that. Before our greatest > > > > > generation gave it a concrete wording in the 20th century, > it was > > > well > > > > > moulded in the crucible that is our land, in the fire of the > > > previous > > > > > several dozen, if not more, centuries. > > > > > > > > > > Every country of the world has stories that define their > national> > > > essences. What is the most essential feature of Indian > > > > > nationalism? It > > > > > is our Indian identity – our being tied to India, and our > > > > > civilisational brotherhood to each other in being bonded > so. All > > > > > Indians, regardless of their religion or language, has > this bond > > > with > > > > > India and with each other. > > > > > Indians must pause for a while and think why our anthem's > going over > > > > > our landmarks is so emotive. Or why Hindu-Muslim-Sikh- > Christian> > > > insignia are powerful. Or why merely thinking of > our history, or our > > > > > Kerala, Karnataka, Maharashtra, UP, Punjab and Bengal > moves all of > > > us > > > > > equally. > > > > > > > > > > It's because they remind us of our organic ties to India, > and the > > > > > brotherhood that we have with each other. This natural > bond given to > > > > > us by our glorious and at times bloody history is > important. If we > > > > > don't uphold this bond with the ferocity that our greatest > > > generation > > > > > did, if we don't use it to protect our common interests, > our country > > > > > will remain weak. > > > > > > > > > > Our country's nature > > > > > > > > > > What is the nature of our country? What does it mean for > something> > > > to be Indian? > > > > > For one, if all of us Indians could get together today and > declare> > in > > > > > one voice that India stands for certain values, then that > would be > > > an > > > > > authoritative statement. India is what Indians say it is. > If, say, > > > the > > > > > people of the then-Indian civilisation – Hindus, Muslims, > > > Christians, > > > > > Buddhists, Sikhs, and Jains – had made such a statement > 400 years > > > ago > > > > > and preserved its spirit through centuries, that would > have probably > > > > > > > > have been one of the greatest Indian texts. > > > > > > > > > > If you will recall, a very similar event actually did > happen in > > > 1949, > > > > > when the founding fathers of the Indian republic adopted, > enacted,> > and > > > > > gave to ourselves - the sovereign people of India - our > > > constitution. > > > > > The preamble reads, > > > > > > > > > > "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to > constitute> > India > > > > > into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and > to secure > > > > > to all its citizens: > > > > > JUSTICE, social, economic and political; > > > > > LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; > > > > > EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote > among them all > > > > > FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the > unity and > > > > > integrity of the Nation. > > > > > IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of > November, 1949, > > > > > > > > do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS > CONSTITUTION."> > > > > > > > > In an absolute sense, the values of justice, liberty, and > equality> > > > have an intuitive appeal to all humans everywhere. > However, the > > > > > formidable authority of our constitution comes from the > crushed but > > > > > proud people who paid a very high price for our right to > live as > > > > > equals and as dignified humans in India. We must take > their word for > > > > > > > > what India is – they must have known and dreamt quite a > bit about > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > India's greatest generation definitely realised that > divisivism,> > > > self-doubt, and other demons from our past > would haunt the republic > > > > > they formed. Which is why the constitution is important. > It helps us > > > > > protect our country from ourselves. > > > > > > > > > > The Constitution. Indian Nationalism. How we will defend > India.> > > > > > > > > Those who doubt the moral power of our freedom-generation, our > > > > > constitutional ethos, and Indian nationalism need only > look at > > > > > Pakistan, which renounced all these in its attempts not to > be seen > > > as > > > > > Indian. Pakistan's leaders, in trying to defend their divisve > > > national > > > > > philosophy, forced the most horrible bankruptcy on its people. > > > > > > > > > > Rather than using Indian nationalism and the constitution > to tackle > > > > > our communal issues, I am appalled at the general trend to > merely> > > > lament that India is on its way to being declared an > non-secular > > > state > > > > > - the hundreds of millions of Indians fully intent on > preventing> > this > > > > > notwithstanding. > > > > > > > > > > Pakistan-style Islamism, Ummah-isation of Hinduism, > alienation of > > > > > Indian Muslims > > > > > > > > > > There are three major trends in India today that are > relevant to > > > > > our topic. > > > > > > > > > > Firstly, India has very serious conflicts of interest with > Pakistan.> > > > We have gone to war with that country several > times. Its society has > > > > > issues with radicalisation and a general religious > orthodoxy. Its > > > > > regimes have relentlessly attacked India's internal fault- > lines over > > > > > the past few decades in the name of Islam. Tens of > thousands of > > > Indian > > > > > soldiers have died defending our country against them. It is > > > > > distinctly un-Indian and anti-Indian. > > > > > > > > > > Secondly, Hinduism is, for the lack of a better word, > Ummah-ising, > > > and > > > > > this at times takes horrifyingly militant forms. I, given my > > > personal > > > > > biases, am all for Hindu solidarity and abolishing > > > pseudo-secularism. > > > > > However, an argument for Hindu-solidarity should not be > allowed to > > > > > take the form of an un-Indian religionalism that goes > against the > > > very > > > > > spirit of India. > > > > > > > > > > Thirdly, Indian Muslims feel alienated from their own > country. In > > > > > India, Pakistan is synonymous with Islam. Unfortunately, > Islam is > > > also > > > > > weakly synonymous with Pakistan. This has significantly > undermined> > > > Indian Muslims' political standing in India vis- > a-vis their fellow > > > > > citizens. > > > > > > > > > > The havoc all this has wreaked on our society must not be > ignored.> > > > India was home to one of humanity's greatest > Islamic cultures for > > > well > > > > > over 1000 years. It is not, by any means, a dead part of our > > > > > culture - > > > > > nearly 160 million Indians are Muslims, several national > icons are > > > > > Muslims, mosques and Islamic architecture litter the > country, and > > > > > Muslim holidays are shared by all. And yet, to a lot of > Indians,> > Islam > > > > > doesn't feel Indian, but Pakistani. Despite their respective > > > religious > > > > > majorities, it is odd that Buddhism doesn't feel Sri > Lankan, or > > > > > Hinduism itself, Nepali. > > > > > > > > > > The partition of India and secular India's deprivation of its > > > Islamic > > > > > authenticity > > > > > > > > > > Has anyone thought what has actually happened here? Why is > it that > > > in > > > > > India, an ancient civilisational land which has a unique > Islamic> > > > culture just like Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, Islam is > seen as somehow > > > > > foreign? That is not because of Islam's being inconsistent > with> > India > > > > > – 1000 years and more of history and our combined freedom > struggle> > > > should have proven this by now. > > > > > > > > > > During partition, founders of Pakistan expropriated the > > > subcontinent's > > > > > Islamic identity for defining their nation, Pakistan. > Pakistan's> > > > struggle to keep its ideology alive has robbed > us of our Islamic > > > > > authenticity. India's secular nature not-withstanding, the > ardour> > with > > > > > which Pakistan argued itsideology and pushed its exclusivist > > > national > > > > > philosophy within the larger Islamic community ensured > that it > > > gained > > > > > some traction in the Indian society. Pakistan's military > conflicts> > > > with "Hindu" India only amplified this. > > > > > > > > > > It only takes a few of decades of intense activity for a new > > > Zeitgeist > > > > > to take root in a society. Consider denazification of Germany, > > > China's > > > > > turn into capitalism, and India's own economic > liberalisation. 30 > > > > > years – that is all it takes for a young generation to > grow up > > > shaped > > > > > by a pervasive ideology. > > > > > > > > > > Though quite smaller than India, Pakistan is by no means a > tiny> > > > nation. It is the world's 6th most populous country, > one of its > > > major > > > > > economies, and a prominent player during the cold war=2E One > cannot> > find > > > > > fault with it - Pakistan had to defend its national > philosophy. It > > > has > > > > > expended a tremendous amount of national effort over the > last 60 > > > years > > > > > in achieving a strong association between subcontinental > Islam and > > > > > itself. > > > > > > > > > > They have succeeded splendidly. Islam in the subcontinent > today is > > > > > seen as prominently Pakistani and India's secular fabric > warped by > > > > > that perception. Pakistan is an Islamic nation - this > somehow gives > > > > > them a stronger claim on everything Islamic in the > subcontinent. The > > > > > world simply does not recognise India's Islamic > authenticity, and > > > > > neither do many Indians within. India continues to be > associated> > > > primarily with Hinduism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, > but not Islam. > > > > > > > > > > Does religious brotherhood entirely negate the organic > bonds a human > > > > > has to his ancestral land and its history, and to his > fellow humans > > > > > who share the same bonds as him? I don't really know. What > I do know > > > > > is that this is not the principle on which the Indian > republic was > > > > > founded, and its definitely not an Indian value. Religious > > > supremacism > > > > > and breaking up of Indian people are un-Indian > philosophies. It goes > > > > > against the very spirit of our freedom struggle, > nationalism, and > > > our > > > > > constitution. > > > > > > > > > > Indians must remember that new Pakistani generations do > not even > > > have > > > > > the same right to speak for India's Muslims that their earlier > > > > > generations might have had. Indian democracy has proven this > > > > > unnecessary anyway. > > > > > > > > > > Indo-Pak culture-drift and attempts at an unnatural bonhomie > > > > > > > > > > There is a delusion among the political class and Indian > people that > > > > > our shared past can be used to achieve friendly relations > between> > > > India and Pakistan. My view is that in doing so, we > are only > > > > > reinforcing the internal Islam-Pakistan hyphenation. > > > > > > > > > > When historical developments asunder a people, over a > period of time > > > > > the newly formed groups drift increasingly farther from > one another. > > > > > > > > Once upon time, Myanmar and Sri Lanka were part of India, > just like > > > > > Pakistan and Bangladesh. Afghanistan was part of several > Indian> > > > empires. Today, though at a national level we have > very cordial > > > > > relations, they are distinctly unfamiliar to us. > > > > > > > > > > Such a natural drift has definitely taken place between > India and > > > > > Pakistan. The strongest bond between us that keeps us in each > > > others' > > > > > national memories is not anything positive that we share, > but the > > > > > acrid legacy of partition. It's hard for me as an Indian, for > > > > > instance, to imagine such an Islamism taking hold of > Pakistan if it > > > > > were under Akbar's rule. That is, if it were under genuinely > > > > > Indian-style Islamic rule. > > > > > > > > > > I am not suggesting we should actively pursue enmity with > Pakistan> > or > > > > > vilify it. However, its being clumped together with Indian > Muslims> > is > > > > > simply not healthy for India. What has Pakistan's > 'leadership' of > > > > > subcontinental Muslims, its advocacy of religious supremacism > > > within, > > > > > and its enmity with India effectively accomplished? It has > robbed> > > > India of its genuine Islamic authenticity in the > world's eyes, and > > > > > caused non-Muslim Indians to reject the culture of an un- > Indian> > enemy. > > > > > Pakistan has highlighted Indian Muslims' being Islamic and > > > > =3E consistently de-emphasized their being Indian. > > > > > > > > > > Pursuing an unnatural bonhomie with Pakistan and stressing our > > > > > similarities with them will only weaken our case for our > > > differences, > > > > > which are very real. To uphold our national interest, we > must assert > > > > > and amplify these differences. > > > > > > > > > > Replace Islam-Pakistan hyphenation with Islam-India > hyphenation in > > > the > > > > > subcontinent > > > > > > > > > > I urge Indians to spearhead a change of perception of > Islam in the > > > > > subcontinent. Anything that prevents Indian Muslims' fully > asserting> > > > their claim on India as Indian citizens is > against the national > > > > > interest. The strong association in India between > subcontinental> > Islam > > > > > and the present day un-Indian Pakistan must go. > > > > > > > > > > It is tempting to claim that all South Asian countries > share Islamic > > > > > > > > civilization equally. It may be polite and civil to do so, > and it > > > may > > > > > even have some historical merit, but it's a weak claim for our > > > > > purposes. It doesn't have the necessary boldness and self- > conviction> > > > > > > to be effective. It also doesn't forcefully argue for India's > > > Islamic > > > > > authenticity. Our aim is to end Islam-Pakistan hyphenation > for the > > > > > welfare of a billion humans, not to be fair observers of > history. We > > > > > > > > must hence push the strongest nationalistic claim > possible: Islam in > > > > > the subcontinent is Indian, and it always has been. > > > > > > > > > > Indian Islam never 'went' anywhere – it is alive and well > amidst us. > > > > > > > > Our nationalism and constitution are guarantees that it will > > > > > thrive if > > > > > Pakistan would let go of it. When the world thinks of > Hinduism in > > > > > South Asia, it thinks of India. Sikhism, it thinks of India. > > > Buddhism, > > > > > India. When it thinks of Islam in South Asia, it must > think of > > > India. > > > > > Everyone in the subcontinent will be better off. Everyone. > > > > > > > > > > The idea that Islam in the subcontinent is primarily > Indian can gain > > > > > > > > currency only through a concerted nationalist campaign. No > apologies> > > > should be made for such a movement. No one need > be convinced of its > > > > > proponents' "patriotism". The obvious worthiness of the > cause, its > > > > > truth, and its urgency are justifications enough. > > > > > > > > > > What ideas might such a campaign seek to make current? > > > > > > > > > > The countries in our region share an intertwined, messy > history. We > > > > > have alot in common - languages, religions, culture, > quirks - all > > > > > part of our common and colourful heritage. > > > > > > > > > > However, if our historical and religious assets must be > divided> > > > amongst us, then the worthiest inheritor of Islamic > heritage in the > > > > > subcontinent can only be India. Not Pakistan, not > Bangladesh, not > > > Sri > > > > > Lanka, not Myanmar, not Nepal. India is the only nation > that has > > > been > > > > > true to the historical spirit of Indian Islam – that of > flourishing> > > > alongside other Indic faiths in India. > > > > > > > > > > Slay our demons ourselves > > > > > > > > > > Has it ever struck you that in our country, we have a vicious > > > > > circularity of the following sort: we feel dismayed that the > > > > > country/political class/leadership has done nothing for > us; a form > > > of > > > > > apathy and resignation sets in; the country/political > > > class/leadership > > > > > continues to do nothing; we feel increasingly more dismayed. > > > > > > > > > > We are a democracy. We individually must act. Things won't > happen> > > > if we don't. > > > > > I urge Indians to assert India's secularism and > nationalism to fight > > > > > > > > alienation of the Muslim community from Indian mainstream. > This> > battle > > > > > is the easier one to win – there are hundreds of millions of > > > > > reasonable Indians, the Indian constitution, the liberal > press, the > > > > > legacy of our freedom-generation, and truth and justice on > our side. > > > > > > > > > > I also urge Indians to fight Pakistani supremacy of > subcontinental> > > > Islam from the outside. That is the root of > all our problems. That > > > is > > > > > the key battle in India's war against communalism. We must > learn to > > > > > say, "Thanks, but no thanks. I understand what you mean, > but this is > > > > > not really true" to anyone who stresses commonalities of > any sort in > > > > > > > > the subcontinent. > > > > > > > > > > Who will go first? > > > > > > > > > > Based on the concept of ownership of our destiny, what are the > > > answers > > > > > to these questions: > > > > > > > > > > "But how can non-Muslims claim that Islam in the > subcontinent is > > > > > Indian when it is represented by Pakistan and Indian Muslims > > > > > themselves imply so?" > > > > > > > > > > "How can Indian Muslims make the Indo-centric claim when > there is a > > > > > genuine sense of their alienation in India and rest of Indian > > > society > > > > > accuses them of siding with Pakistan. We cannot move against > > > Pakstani > > > > > Muslims. There is a lot in common between us." > > > > > > > > > > I don't know! I am definitely going, in my own way. That I > know. I > > > > > will not ever treat any Indian by as automatically allied > with a > > > > > foreign, inimical power. I will continue making people > aware of the > > > > > need to end the subcontinental Islam-Pakistan association and > > > replace > > > > > it with Islam-India. > > > > > > > > > > We shall NOT vilify. We shall have faith. > > > > > > > > > > Indians should stop vilifying each other. Not because it > would be > > > > > saintly to do so, but because it only weakens our unity. > > > > > > > > > > Our nationalism and our constitution are solid stuff. Our > greatest> > > > generation did their job well. If we must > challenge our fellow > > > > > Indians, invoke these instruments. Face with stead-fast > stoicism any > > > > > slurs, any accusations of you being an anti-Indian Muslim > or a > > > > > communal Hindutvawadi. Let the diatribe die down. Repeat your > > > > > arguments invoking our nationalism, constitution, and your > reasoning> > > > again. Do not ask anyone to 'prove' his or her > patriotism. It's > > > > > demeaning to do so. > > > > > > > > > > Satyameva Jayate – truth alone triumphs. If you are right, > you will > > > > > win. Have faith in our country and in every Indians' > goodness and > > > > > genuine attachment to their land. > > > > > > > > > > Augmenting India's ideological basis > > > > > > > > > > Earlier I mentioned that our work on Indian nationhood is > not a > > > frozen > > > > > process, but a continuing one. We can and must correct any > earlier> > > > mistakes that continue to torment India's communal > harmony.> > > > > > > > > If the greatest challenge the freedom-generation faced was > ending> > the > > > > > British rule and forming a stable republic, the greatest > challenge> > > > before us is to take back leadership of > subcontinental Islam from > > > > > Pakistan. Our challenge is to do this without sacrificing > India's> > > > secular nature. > > > > > > > > > > To tackle our new communal challenges in the 21st century, > I propose > > > > > > > > the following: > > > > > 1. Secularism will continue to remain the Indian union's lynch > > > > > pin. It > > > > > should not, however, require any particular religious > group's giving > > > > > up their right to assert religious solidarity. We should > genuinely> > > > address any concerns about hypocrisy in the name > of secularism. > > > > > > > > > > 2. India is a mature concept, and we should actively use > it to > > > tackle > > > > > the challenges before us. Secularism is an integral part > of our > > > > > nationhood and a historically irreversible development. It > follows> > > > that religionalism – wherever it is practised – is > distinctly> > > > un-Indian. Within India, it is also anti-Indian > in the sense that > > > they > > > > > weaken India and goes against its spirit. > > > > > > > > > > 3. The natural heir to Islamic civilisation in the > subcontinent is > > > > > India. Subcontinental Islam has always been an Indian > phenomenon.> > > > Pakistan's oft-reinforced association with > Indian Muslims must be > > > > > destroyed. > > > > > > > > > > 4. India's brotherhood with its neighbours is dying. Soon > there will > > > > > be an Indian generation which doesn't have a single Indian > born> > before > > > > > partition. Every single human in the subcontinent would > have been > > > born > > > > > in the countries as they existed after partition. The > continuing> > > > attempts to maintain an unnatural bonhomie with > India's hostile > > > > > neighbours is not a tenable project - Pakistan has moved > too far > > > away > >> > > from what was once India. > > > > > > > > > > Indian Muslims. India's Islam. > > > > > > > > > > A shockingly large amount of our national energy is wasted in > > > > > countering the effects of Islam-Pakistan hyphenation in the > > > > > subcontinent. > > > > > > > > > > The solution is simple. Reclaim the part of Indian > identity that was > > > > > robbed of us some 60 years back. If India is Hindu, then > for similar > > > > > > > > reasons, it is also Buddhist, Sikh, Christian - and Islamic. > > > Purported > > > > > authority over sub-continental Islam by other entities in the > > > > > subcontinent is an outrageous farce that must be ended > right away. > > > > > > > > > > There is no obligation to do this meekly. India doesn't have > > > > > merely a > > > > > substantial claim or merely an equal claim. It simply has > more right > > > > > to subcontinental Islamic heritage than anyone else by an > > > > > overwhelmingly large margin, period. We must use it for > our national > > > > > well-being. > > > > > > > > > > Who can assert subcontinental Islam's Indian nature > boldly, loudly, > > > > > without an iota of self-doubt or hesitation? Who needs > this to be > > > done > > > > > most urgently? Who suffers from a deprivation of their > right to > > > belong > > > > > to India the most? The Hindus? Sikhs? Buddhists? > Christians? Jains? > > > > > Clearly not. Who else? > > > > > > > > > > The Indian Muslims. The others are left distinctly poorer > and their > > > > > country's communal harmony stressed, but their Indian > genuineness is > > > > > unquestioned within India and the world over. There is not > going> > > > to be > > > > > an un-Indian leader-nation for India's Sikhs, Hindus, Jains, > > > Buddhists > > > > > and Christians in our neighbourhood any time soon. > > > > > > > > > > http://indianmuslims.in/indias-islam/ > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > > list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking> > for last minute shopping deals? > > > > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping_________________________________________> > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > > list > > > > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with> > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=220 > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________> > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Wed Jan 23 19:34:45 2008 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:04:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] the likes of Kafeel, Sabeel and Haneef... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <390447.88461.qm@web8403.mail.in.yahoo.com> (Sarai-readers, my apologies for clogging up space) Dear Radhika I am just reacting to your comment: "All Muslims are not terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims." Please see the following report from Times of India, Jul 23, 2006: "Terrorism is not a Muslim monopoly" SWAMINATHAN S ANKLESARIA AIYAR "All Muslims may not be terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims." This comment, frequently heard after the Mumbai bomb blasts implies that terrorism is a Muslim specialty, if not a monopoly. The facts are very different. First, there is nothing new about terrorism. In 1881, anarchists killed the Russian Tsar Alexander II and 21 bystanders. In 1901, anarchists killed US President McKinley as well as King Humbert I of Italy. World War I started in 1914 when anarchists killed Archduke Ferdinand of Austria. These terrorist attacks were not Muslim. Terrorism is generally defined as the killing of civilians for political reasons. Going by this definition, the British Raj referred to Bhagat Singh, Chandrashekhar Azad and many other Indian freedom fighters as terrorists. These were Hindu and Sikh rather than Muslim. Guerrilla fighters from Mao Zedong to Ho Chi Minh and Fidel Castro killed civilians during their revolutionary campaigns. They too were called terrorists until they triumphed. Nothing Muslim about them. In Palestine, after World War II, Jewish groups (the Haganah, Irgun and Stern Gang) fought for the creation of a Jewish state, bombing hotels and installations and killing civilians. The British, who then governed Palestine, rightly called these Jewish groups terrorists. Many of these terrorists later became leaders of independent Israel — Moshe Dayan, Yitzhak Rabin, Menachem Begin, Ariel Sharon. Ironically, these former terrorists then lambasted terrorism, applying this label only to Arabs fighting for the very same nationhood that the Jews had fought for earlier. In Germany in 1968-92, the Baader-Meinhoff Gang killed dozens, including the head of Treuhand, the German privatisation agency. In Italy, the Red Brigades kidnapped and killed Aldo Moro, former prime minister. The Japanese Red Army was an Asian version of this. Japan was also the home of Aum Shinrikyo, a Buddhist cult that tried to kill thousands in the Tokyo metro system using nerve gas in 1995. In Europe, the Irish Republican Army has been a Catholic terrorist organisation for almost a century. Spain and France face a terrorist challenge from ETA, the Basque terrorist organisation. Africa is ravaged by so much civil war and internal strife that few people even bother to check which groups can be labelled terrorist. They stretch across the continent. Possibly the most notorious is the Lord’s Salvation Army in Uganda, a Christian outfit that uses children as warriors. In Sri Lanka, the Tamil Tigers have long constituted one of the most vicious and formidable terrorist groups in the world. They were the first to train children as terrorists. They happen to be Hindus. Suicide bombing is widely associated with Muslim Palestinians and Iraqis, but the Tamil Tigers were the first to use this tactic on a large scale. One such suicide bomber assassinated Rajiv Gandhi in 1991. In India, the militants in Kashmir are Muslim. But they are only one of several militant groups. The Punjab militants, led by Bhindranwale, were Sikhs. The United Liberation Front of Assam is a Hindu terrorist group that targets Muslims rather than the other way round. Tripura has witnessed the rise and fall of several terrorist groups, and so have Bodo strongholds in Assam. Christian Mizos mounted an insurrection for decades, and Christian Nagas are still heading militant groups. But most important of all are the Maoist terrorist groups that now exist in no less than 150 out of India’s 600 districts. They have attacked police stations, and killed and razed entire villages that oppose them. These are secular terrorists (like the Baader Meinhof Gang or Red Brigades). In terms of membership and area controlled, secular terrorists are far ahead of Muslim terrorists. In sum, terrorism is certainly not a Muslim monopoly. There are or have been terrorist groups among Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, and even Buddhists. Secular terrorists (anarchists, Maoists) have been the biggest killers. Why then is there such a widespread impression that most or all terrorist groups are Muslim? I see two reasons. First, the Indian elite keenly follows the western media, and the West feels under attack from Islamic groups. Catholic Irish terrorists have killed far more people in Britain than Muslims, yet the subway bombings in London and Madrid are what Europeans remember today. The Baader Meinhof Gang, IRA and Red Brigades no longer pose much of a threat, but after 9/11 Americans and Europeans fear that they could be hit anywhere anytime. So they focus attention on Islamic militancy. They pay little notice to other forms of terrorism in Africa, Sri Lanka or India: these pose no threat to the West. Within India, Maoists pose a far greater threat than Muslim militants in 150 districts, one-third of India’s area. But major cities feel threatened only by Muslim groups. So the national elite and media focus overwhelmingly on Muslim terrorism. The elite are hardly aware that this is an elite phenomenon. http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Repository/ml.asp?Ref=VE9JTS8yMDA2LzA3LzIzI0FyMDEyMDA=&Mode=HTML&Locale=english-skin-custom --- radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > Fatima, > > again some hate for the group of individuals in > student community just because they are not under > banner of NSUI or DYSI ? Can you cite one instance > of funding terror by HSC or any student union of > Sangh parivar for the progoms as you say ? NRIs of > hindu origin if they contribute to Sangh parivar, it > becomes funds for terror ? What is the basis of this > assumption of false propaganda. ? As I have already > told you, some do not represent the whole of > community as you have rightly pointed out, just as > all muslims are not terrorists, but all terrorists > are muslims, as seen by society by now. Society as a > whole has big role in stopping the fanatic elements > in society, otherwise the results are obivious, in > actions and reactions as seen in Gujarath. In free > India, every time the riots broke, it was the > "secular" parties which rewarded the rioters with > plush MP or MLA tickets and thus goon shouting > brigades were built, to force the silent majority in > any faith to comply with their > wishes to put the rowdy in legislation forum. In > Gujarath, it must be remembered that administration > did not hesitate to fire bullets at rioters > irrespective whether they were of hindu or muslim > faith. But our "secular" media with sycophants in as > anchors have only exploited with SMS and debate > revenues to enrich themselves with bank rolls. > Is there any justification for the visual media to > show again and again the gujarath riots every time > the elections are around the corner by the reward > and award winning "journalists" crooning for > "secular" parties when the truth of the matter is > these very same "secular" parties were the fomentors > of trouble between communities ? > > By the way, I have read one of the mail by Sarai > adfmn regarding many mails in response which says to > ignore the mails from ids who post 4-5 mails and > clog the mailbox, may be sarai does not want face > the truth to retain its "secular" image. ? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "S.Fatima" > Date: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 2:11 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] the likes of Kafeel, > Sabeel and Haneef... > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, Pawan Durani > > Cc: "S.Fatima" , chanchal > malviya , reader-list > > > > Dear Pawan/Radhika > > Is there a difference between funding the > activities > > of hate and and actually doing the arsoning and > rape? > > HSC may not have participated in the violence, but > > they did fund the Gujarat pogorm from their > armchairs. > > The NRIs are probably more religious and communal > than > > even resident Indians (and I include both Hindus > and > > Muslims in it). > > > > The beauty of our terminology is that when a > Muslim is > > involved in arson or kidnapping, he is a > terrorist. > > When anyone else does the same, he is a > reactionary. > > Why? > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register From elkamath at yahoo.com Tue Jan 22 12:45:53 2008 From: elkamath at yahoo.com (lalitha kamath) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 23:15:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Special issue on WSF and interview with Boaventura de Souza Santos Message-ID: <282070.34584.qm@web53608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> FYI Q&A: 'WSF Is As Much a Cultural Struggle As a Political One' Interview with Boaventura de Sousa Santos Boaventura de Sousa Santos COIMBRA, Portugal, Jan 21 (IPS) - The movement against capitalism, injustice and oppression requires a strong convergence of social organisations that have fully accepted their differences, said sociologist Boaventura de Sousa Santos, who predicted serious future difficulties for World Social Forum (WSF) meetings. Due to "the rise of militarism and paranoia over security, in future many activists will be prevented from travelling to other countries by being denied entry visas, because a new kind of criminalisation of social protest is under way," he said in an interview with IPS correspondent Mario de Queiroz. De Sousa Santos is a professor at the University of Coimbra, in Portugal. He earned his doctorate in sociology of law at the Yale University in the U.S., and is a visiting professor at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. In his prominent public life he has vigorously defended strong social and civic movements as essential for participative democracy. He is a distinguished active participant in the WSF -- founded in 2001 by social movements and other civil society organisations opposed to the present direction of globalisation. IPS: Do you think it was a good idea not to hold an international meeting of the WSF this year, but to hold local events all over the world, with the risk that poses in terms of dispersion, loss of identity and loss of momentum in the coming years? BOAVENTURA DE SOUSA SANTOS: Every political movement must walk at the pace of its activists and leaders. In the case of the WSF, what really counts today is the pace of the organisations and movements that are part of the International Council (IC). For years, some organisations have been saying that the energy they invest in organising and preparing for the WSF prevents them from working properly on their specific action agendas, and that it would be preferable to hold a global WSF meeting every two years. This option has now achieved consensus in the IC. I see this year's plan as further evidence that the Forum is capable of experimentation, and so I think it's not a bad idea. It will allow us to identify and assess another dimension of the WSF which has been little exercised so far: it's capability to coordinate disparate activities that are widely dispersed. I see it above all as an opportunity for new forms of growth and for reinventing its identity. The important thing to bear in mind is that the WSF is happening this year, but in a new and extremely decentralised format. I would personally be satisfied if a decision to hold the WSF every other year were to arise from the evaluation of this year's Global Day of Action -- Jan. 26. I foresee new short-term challenges, and I believe that the Forum, while maintaining its basic philosophy, may be about to go through deeper changes. IPS: What changes, for example? BSS: Coordinating with other trans-national initiatives, and learning from and with them. I'm thinking of the vast popular education movement, and "The Other Campaign" by the Mexican Zapatistas (EZLN), both of which have enormous virtues. The specific case of "The Other Campaign" is a new way of building counter-hegemony, a new political culture and a new policy on alliances. IPS: The IC is divided over whether to carry on as an open forum, or to formally assume political positions in the name of the WSF, based on consensus. Some of those who advocate taking positions are concerned about a certain amount of stagnation and lack of direction if this isn't done. BSS: All new political initiatives face two specific difficulties: the language they use belongs more to the past than to the future, even when the reverse appears to be true; and its participants are divided between their past experience and the will to innovate. The novelty of the WSF is its new way of organising with the goal of creating a new political culture. That's why I would define the WSF as a counter- hegemonic form of globalisation rather than as alter-globalisation -- as implied by its rallying call, "Another world is possible". It is as much a cultural struggle as a political one, in which the cultural component has a much slower maturing process than the political one. The logic of these two struggles sometimes clash. The idea of the WSF as a space for meeting and debate leans more towards the cultural dimension, and that of the WSF as an activist movement tends to emphasise the political dimension. But the polarisation of these two ideas is an inheritance of past thinking on the left -- a thinking which doesn't comprehend that open space is itself a movement -- a space on the move. Then again, both sides conceive decision-making processes in a Eurocentric way -- their idea is that to adopt concrete political action it is necessary to decide -- and that will never be possible by consensus. Indigenous peoples decide by consensus, and on that basis are organising prodigious movements in Latin America. However, is it possible to imagine the same thing happening in movements and organisations that have grown up in a Western culture, although they belong to the global South? I am in favour of the WSF deciding on political action as long as this is done by consensus, and in areas where a low degree of conflict can be expected. The WSF is creating the conditions for politically confrontational global actions, but I don't believe that the Forum itself should undertake them, because such actions need to be deeply rooted locally and nationally and the Forum can't guarantee that. IPS: Isn't there a problem of representation and even democracy within the WSF, since social movements made up of millions of activists in many countries have the same right to speak as local non-governmental organisations with only a few members? BSS: The WSF is not a parliament, nor a political party. Our concepts of representation and democracy are based on organisations. Debates about this issue would be very useful, as we would then be thinking about new ways of political organising and legitimacy. For instance, how would a world parliament or a global political party function? The historical role of the WSF is to open that debate, and not to conclude it. The problem with the WSF is that it isn't truly global in terms of its participants, nor in its themes or its political orientations. But a future combination of the WSF as a meeting and as a Global Day of Action might be a promising solution. IPS: Given the dramatic nature of climate change, might the WSF be obliged to change its priorities, its central themes? BSS: Without a doubt. What's important is that the WSF should not deal with the topic in the style of Al Gore -- that is, as a problem that has nothing to do with global capitalism, with indigenous and peasant movements, with the issues of land and water, with discrimination against women. Debates about climate change are the new frontier in building counter- hegemony. They are a way of demonstrating to ordinary citizens that society as we know it will not survive. IPS: The impact of the WSF seems to have diminished after the novelty of the first few meetings. What does it need to exert greater influence on politics, people's lives and societies? BSS: The WSF had a major surprise effect which made it very popular, and well-known even among its adversaries -- hence the initial curiosity of the big media. The problem is that the surprise effect cannot be repeated. Once it has run its course, the impact of the Forum is long-term, and the media lose interest. Besides, it's seen as potentially dangerous and therefore to be silenced. But it would be wrong to be demoralised by the silence of the media, or to think that their silence indicates a loss of importance. On the contrary, it's the potential importance of the Forum that is the cause of the silence. IPS: Studies of the participants' profiles have shown that the WSF is composed of an intellectual élite, with a majority holding university degrees and belonging to the middle classes. Doesn't that contradict the ideals of social inclusion and changing the world? BSS: Progressive change has rarely come about by actions taken only by people who are excluded. The great struggles have always resulted from alliances between more oppressed and less oppressed groups and those who, without being directly oppressed themselves, acted in solidarity with the excluded because they felt it was unjust that their wellbeing should be based on the suffering of the oppressed. Intellectuals are facilitators in the expression and analysis of experiences and actions on different scales -- local, national, regional and global -- which combine different agendas for change, such as those of indigenous people, women, peasants, human rights and the environment. *** FOCUS ON TRADE NUMBER 136, JANUARY 2008 Part 1 ** SPECIAL ISSUE ON THE WORLD SOCIAL FORUM ** http://www.focusweb.org/focus-on-trade-number-136-january-2008.html?Itemid=1 Saturday 26 January is the World Social Forum Global Day of Action (http://www.wsf2008.net/). More than 600 actions and events are being planned on or close to the day, in every continent; they range from defening housing rights in Omsk in Siberia and protesting anti-military bases actions in Aotearoa/New Zealand to dozens of local social forums, protests, gatherings and celebrations of resistance. The decision of the WSF international council to call for a day of action is an experiement and a risk, but it also reflects the sincere efforts of everyone involved to maintain the innovation and dynamism of the WSF process. In this two-part issue of Focus on Trade, we are reflecting on the future direction of the WSF. In advance, I apologise for the gender-bias in this issues and would welcome contributions to the debate, especially from women. In the Part I, we have republished an article by Walden Bello that appeared in Focus on Trade #129 in 2007. At that time, Bello's question that perhaps it was time for the WSF to “pack up its tent” provoked many reactions and the authors of the following articles – Thomas Ponniah, Jai Sen and Chico Whitaker -- take this as a reference in their response. In the final article, IPS – which has always been an active participants in the WSF – interviews Bello about the future of the WSF. Part II is a longer reflection by Boaventura de Sousa Santos which places the WSF phenomenon is a broader historical and theoretcial context, investigating the significance of the WSF for the global left. And by the way, it's not only the WSF that is looking for new strategies: speaking about the World Economic Forum, PepsiCo chief executive and co-chair of this year's event, Indra Nooyi said that Davos is “... all potential power, meaning it’s static power. You have to unleash it.” She went on, “It’s great for discussion, it’s great for sharing the results of research, but I think we have to move from discussion to decision.” Does that sound familiar? Finally, all of us at Focus on the Global South send our greetings and solidarity to the thousands of activists who have been working towards the Global Day of Action and we wish you great success. ************************************************** PART 1: THE FORUM AT THE CROSSROADS Walden Bello THE CONTRIBUTION OF THE US SOCIAL FORUM: A REPLY TO THE DEBATE ON THE OPEN SPACE Thomas Ponniah IS THE WORLD SOCIAL FORUM APPROACHING A POINT OF CRISIS ? A NOTE TOWARDS A DEBATE ON THE WSF GLOBAL DAY OF ACTION Jai Sen ANSWERING CACIM’S CALL FOR AN WSF EVALUATION Chico Whitaker IPS INTERVIEWS WALDEN BELLO ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THE WSF. PART 2: THE WORLD SOCIAL FORUM AND THE GLOBAL LEFT Boaventura de Sousa Santos ************************************************* THE FORUM AT THE CROSSROADS Walden Bello* A new stage in the evolution of the global justice movement was reached with the inauguration of the World Social Forum (WSF) in Porto Alegre, Brazil, in January 2001. The WSF was the brainchild of social movements loosely associated with the Workers’ Party (PT) in Brazil. Strong support for the idea was given at an early stage by the ATTAC movement in France, key figures of which were connected with the newspaper Le Monde Diplomatique. In Asia, the Brazilian proposal, floated in June 2000, received the early enthusiastic endorsement of, among others, the research and advocacy institute Focus on the Global South based in Bangkok. Porto Alegre was meant to be a counterpoint to “Davos,” the annual event in a resort town in the Swiss Alps where the world’s most powerful business and political figures congregated annually to spot and assess the latest trends in global affairs. Indeed, the highlight of the first WSF was a televised transcontinental debate between George Soros and other figures in Davos with representatives of social movements gathered in Porto Alegre. The world of Davos was contrasted to the world of Porto Alegre, the world of the global rich with the world of the rest of humanity. It was this contrast that gave rise to the very resonant theme “Another world is possible.” There was another important symbolic dimension: while Seattle was the site of the first major victory of the transnational anti-corporate globalization movement -- the collapse amidst massive street protests of the third ministerial meeting of the World Trade Organization -- Porto Alegre represented the transfer to the South of the center of gravity of that movement. Proclaimed as an “open space,” the WSF became a magnet for global networks focused on different issues, from war to globalization to communalism to racism to gender oppression to alternatives. Regional versions of the WSF were spun off, the most important being the European Social Forum and the African Social Forum; and in scores of cities throughout the world, local social fora were held and institutionalized. THE FUNCTIONS OF THE WSF Since its establishment, the WSF has performed three critical functions for global civil society: First, it represents a space -- both physical and temporal -- for this diverse movement to meet, network, and, quite simply, to feel and affirm itself. Second, it is a retreat during which the movement gathers its energies and charts the directions of its continuing drive to confront and roll back the processes, institutions, and structures of global capitalism. Naomi Klein, author of No Logo, underlined this function when she told a Porto Alegre audience in January 2002 that the need of the moment was “less civil society and more civil disobedience.” Third, the WSF provides a site and space for the movement to elaborate, discuss, and debate the vision, values, and institutions of an alternative world order built on a real community of interests. The WSF is, indeed, a macrocosm of so many smaller but equally significant enterprises carried out throughout the world by millions who have told the reformists, the cynics, and the “realists” to move aside because, indeed, another world is possible…and necessary. DIRECT DEMOCRACY IN ACTION The WSF and its many offspring are significant not only as sites of affirmation and debate but also as direct democracy in action. Agenda and meetings are planned with meticulous attention to democratic process. Through a combination of periodic face-to-face meetings and intense email and Internet contact in between, the WSF network was able to pull off events and arrive at consensus decisions. At times, this could be very time-consuming and also frustrating, and when you were part of an organizing effort involving hundreds of organizations, as we at Focus on the Global South were during the organizing of the 2004 WSF in Mumbai, it could be very frustrating indeed. But this was direct democracy, and direct democracy was at its best at the WSF. One might say, parenthetically, that the direct democratic experiences of Seattle, Prague, Genoa, and the other big mobilizations of the decade were institutionalized in the WSF or Porto Alegre process. The central principle of the organizing approach of the new movement is that getting to the desired objective is not worth it if the methods violate democratic process, if democratic goals are reached via authoritarian means. Perhaps Subcomandante Marcos of the Zapatistas best expressed the organizing bias of the new movements: “The movement has no future if its future is military. If the EZLN [Zapatistas] perpetuates itself as an armed military structure, it is headed for failure. Failure as an alternative set of ideas, an alternative attitude to the world. The worst that could happen to it apart from that, would be for it to come to power and install itself there as a revolutionary army.” The WSF shares this perspective. What is interesting is that there has hardly been an attempt by any group or network to “take over” the WSF process. Quite a number of “old movement” groups participate in the WSF, including old-line “democratic centralist” parties as well as traditional social democratic parties affiliated with the Socialist International. Yet none of these has put much effort into steering the WSF towards more centralized or hierarchical modes of organizing. At the same time, despite their suspicion of political parties, the “new movements” never sought to exclude the parties and their affiliates from playing a significant role in the Forum. Indeed, the 2004 WSF in Mumbai was organized jointly by an unlikely coalition of social movements and Marxist Leninist parties, a set of actors that are not known for harmonious relations on the domestic front. Perhaps a compelling reason for the modus vivendi of the old and new movements was the realization that they needed one another in the struggle against global capitalism and that the strength of the fledgling global movement lay in a strategy of decentralized networking that rested not on the doctrinal belief that one class was destined to lead the struggle but on the reality of the common marginalization of practically all subordinate classes, strata, and groups under the reign of global capital. WHAT CONSTITUTES “OPEN SPACE” The WSF has, however, not been exempt from criticism, even from its own ranks. One in particular appears to have merit. This is the charge that the WSF as an institution is unanchored in actual global political struggles, and this is turning it into an annual festival with limited social impact. There is, in my view, a not insignificant truth to this. Many of the founders of the WSF have interpreted the “open space” concept in a liberal fashion, that is, for the WSF not to explicit endorse any political position or particular struggle, though its constituent groups are free to do so. Others have disagreed, saying the idea of an “open space” should be interpreted in a partisan fashion, as explicitly promoting some views over others and as openly taking sides in key global struggles. In this view, the WSF is under an illusion that it can stand above the fray, and this will lead to its becoming some sort of neutral forum, where discussion will increasingly be isolated from action. The energy of civil society networks derives from their being engaged in political struggles, say proponents of this perspective. The reason that the WSF was so exciting in its early years was because of its affective impact: it provided an opportunity to recreate and reaffirm solidarity against injustice, against war, and for a world that was not subjected to the rule of empire and capital. The WSF’s not taking a stand on the Iraq War, on the Palestine issue, and on the WTO is said to be making it less relevant and less inspiring to many of the networks it had brought together. CARACAS VERSUS NAIROBI This is why the 6th WSF held in Caracas in January 2006 was so bracing and reinvigorating: it inserted some 50,000 delegates into the storm center of an ongoing struggle against empire, where they mingled with militant Venezuelans, mostly the poor, engaged in a process of social transformation, while observing other Venezuelans, mostly the elite and middle class, engaged in bitter opposition. Caracas was an exhilarating reality check. This is also the reason why the Seventh WSF held in Nairobi was so disappointing, since its politics was so diluted and big business interests linked to the Kenyan ruling elite were so brazen in commercializing it. Even Petrobras, the Brazilian state corporation that is a leading exploiter of the natural resource wealth of Latin America, was busy trumpeting itself as a friend of the Forum. There was a strong sense of going backward rather than forward in Nairobi. The WSF is at a crossroads. Hugo Chavez captured the essence of the conjuncture when he warned delegates in January 2006 about the danger of the WSF becoming simply a forum of ideas with no agenda for action. He told participants that they had no choice but to address the question of power: “We must have a strategy of ‘counter-power.’ We, the social movements and political movements, must be able to move into spaces of power at the local, national, and regional level.” Developing a strategy of counter-power or counter-hegemony need not mean lapsing back into the old hierarchical and centralized modes of organizing characteristic of the old left. Such a strategy can, in fact, be best advanced through the multilevel and horizontal networking that the movements and organizations represented in the WSF have excelled in advancing their particular struggles. Articulating their struggles in action will mean forging a common strategy while drawing strength from and respecting diversity. After the disappointment that was Nairobi, many long-standing participants in the Forum are asking themselves: Is the WSF still the most appropriate vehicle for the new stage in the struggle of the global justice and peace movement? Or, having fulfilled its historic function of aggregating and linking the diverse counter-movements spawned by global capitalism, is it time for the WSF to fold up its tent and give way to new modes of global organization of resistance and transformation? * Walden Bello is a senior analyst with Focus on the Global South, the Bangkok-based research and advocacy institute, and professor of sociology at the University of the Philippines. Published by Foreign Policy In Focus (FPIF), a joint project of the International Relations Center (IRC, online at www.irc-online.org) and the Institute for Policy Studies (IPS, online at www.ips-dc.org). Copyright © 2007, International Relations Center. All rights reserved. ************************************************* THE CONTRIBUTION OF THE US SOCIAL FORUM: A REPLY TO WHITAKER AND BELLO'S DEBATE ON THE OPEN SPACE Thomas Ponniah* The achievements of the US Social Forum experience contribute a great deal to debates concerning the future of the overall World Social Forum (WSF) process. In a recent set of interventions Walden Bello and Chico Whitaker, both representatives on the International Council of the WSF, disagreed on the future of the Forum. Bello, the Executive Director of Focus on the Global South, argued that the Forum was now at a crossroads. While acknowledging that the WSF had given a great deal to the struggle for global justice, Bello suggested that the Forum's “open space” methodology, which on principle, refuses to take a collective stand on issues such as the war on Iraq and the WTO, was now inhibiting substantial political agency. He argued that there was merit to the charge that the Forum was becoming “an institution unanchored in actual global political struggles, and this is turning it into an annual festival with limited social impact”. The article concluded with the query: “is it time for the WSF to fold up its tent and give way to new modes of global organization of resistance and transformation?” Chico Whitaker, one of the founders of the WSF, and also a member of the International Council of the World Social Forum, replied to Bello [see below], arguing that crossroads do not have to close roads. Whitaker noted that while the Forum's Charter of Principles precluded the International Council from making statements representing the overall World Social Forum, the open space methodology left possible the opportunity for movements to independently build global coalitions that articulated common manifestos. Therefore, for Whitaker, the WSF's crossroads were in fact two paths that could co-exist, not as impediments to each other, but as mutual sources of inspiration. The open space could continue to allow movements to articulate themselves and to propose new political projects without needing to speak on behalf of all participants at the World Social Forum. In order to thoughtfully assess the two different positions mentioned, we need to reflect on what are the Social Forum process' actual achievements. No Forum in recent memory has better expressed the potential of the process than the recent US Social Forum (USSF). The USSF demonstrated the accuracy of both Bello and Whitaker's arguments, affirming the importance of continuing the social forum process but on much more innovative, decisive, political ground. The US forum, held from June 27 to July 2, in Atlanta, Georgia, the birthplace of Martin Luther King Jnr. attracted over 10 000 participants, in over 900 workshops. The slogan of the Forum was "Another World is Possible. Another US is Necessary." Mirroring yet amplifying the global process, this national forum made three great contributions to the US struggle. DIVERSITY, IDENTITY, AUTONOMY The US Social Forum created an open space that allowed different people's movements to come together from around the United States. For the first time diverse activists from around the country were able to collectively interact in a non-hierachical, horizontal manner that emphasized mutual understanding. The open space infrastructure facilitated the possibility for a variety of movements to meet. If the space had been dominated by one ideology, for example socialism, or if it had been dominated by one strategy, for example, statism, then it would not have attracted so many movements. The open space, as Whitaker has always contended, allowed for a multitude of ideologies and strategies to be represented at the Social Forum. This space not only facilitated dissimilar groups from across the US to connect but it also enabled movements in Atlanta to connect on novel new terms. The open space permitted activists to move away from focusing on the differences between social movements and instead focusing on commonalities. Throughout the 1980s and 1990s there were numerous divisions between different sides of the North American Left: such as socialists, anarchists, ecologists, feminists, anti-racists, queer activists, and indigenous activists to name a few. Movements did not want to work with each other or were endlessly frustrated with each other. The Social Forum created an arena where all of these organizations felt that they could express their agenda without having it drowned out by someone else's program. Speakers at plenaries came from communities that were directly affected by the problem at hand. Grassroots movements spoke for themselves. Thus the Forum was a common, self-representative public venue thereby allowing for trust to be built between movements. The expression of difference was so pronounced that the USSF appeared to be more diverse than any of the World Social Forums held in the last three years. Not since the 2004 World Social Forum in India has a Forum embodied so much diversity, not only as members of the audience, but importantly as speakers and facilitators on panels, seminars and workshops. One could argue that the Forums in India and the United States simply reflected the demographic heterogeneity of two of the most multicultural societies on the planet. Few nations in the Global South have as many religions, cultures, and languages as India. Similarly no country in the Global North has, in numerical terms, has the cultural diversity of the United States However this interpretation of the US Social Forum and the WSF in India is partial. What was remarkable about both events was not simply that they embodied their countries' cultural range but that they also demonstrated their economic diversity. Both Forums were genuinely grassroots events with participants from every economic class - especially the poor. While other editions of the World Social Forum have been moving, inspirational events, they have not substantially represented the impoverished, marginalized, and exploited members of their countries. The first great contribution of the US Social Forum process, then, was its capacity to enable the social, cultural and economic variety of US movements to come together. The second contribution of the USSF dealt with identity. Following the open space concept, the US Social Forum has helped articulate common self-identifications among progressives. What began in Seattle in 1999 as the US wing of the anti-globalization movement has now become a set of alternative national globalization movements. North American activists who took part in the USSF process, were able to even more clearly recognize that diverse forms of dissent such as rallies against racism, demonstrations against debt, and protests against privatization, are not separate events but instances of one overarching dynamic: the demand for global justice. The Social Forum process consolidated numerous common identities of difference: black/brown, student/labor, and environmental/social justice alliances. These coalitions are being built on the desire for another world that is free of the discrimination evidenced by Hurricane Katrina, of the militarism exhibited by perpetual war, of the neoliberalism that prevents health care access to over forty million US citizens, and of the bio-devastation embodied by global warming. In sum, the Forum facilitated the creation of common, unified identities that encompass the plethora of movements that aspire to a world where all life is respected. Third, the World Social Forum, and now the US Social Forum, has promoted a revolution in how progressives imagine their opponent and thus themselves. From its inception the organizers of the World Social Forum dynamic and thus the USSF process understood that people's movements have needed a space of articulation that was autonomous of corporations and political parties. This has been a significant departure from the past. Historically most progressives have imagined their primary adversary to be the market. The left has always understood the danger that free markets, corporations, and capitalism, posed to society. Progressives have always known that commodification inevitably led to alienation. The market, in Marcuse's memorable phrase, makes the human one-dimensional. To restrain commodification, past leftwing movements have called for the state to regulate the economy. In the first world, social democrats, such as the New Deal politicians in the United States in the 1930s, tried to regulate the industry for the benefit of the public. In the second world, Soviet Communism tried to regulate production, and in the third world, the national liberation state, for example Cuba, tried to regulate its economic activity. So the dominant strand of the left has always thought that the state could regulate the market and thus liberate the population from exploitation. The faith in leftist statism was tested numerous times throughout the twentieth century. It finally broke in the early 1990s with the rollback of the welfare state in the first world, the dissolution of the Soviet state in the second world, and the loss of legitimacy of the national liberation state in the third world. Progressives ever since have been contending with the loss of belief in the state as the primary instrument of social liberation. Learning from history, the proponents of the Social Forum process have understood that whether the state increased its power over the market or whether the market increases its power over the state, in both cases disaffection has inevitably deepened. Both the modes of production and administration, both capital and the contemporary state, have become proponents of heteronomy, of estrangement, of immiseration, rather than public self-governance. Against this two-headed adversary, the peoples' movements at the USSF demonstrated the power of self-organized human solidarity. These movements over and over throughout the Forum called for a participatory society to develop independently of the market and the state. At this Forum, US social movements increased their capacity for sovereign, collective self-reflection. The activists at the USSF collectively liberated themselves from the mental hegemony of the state and market by proposing a new imagination: liberation can only be discovered, explored and expressed by grounding social change in radical new forms of democracy. Movements can pressure states, sometimes even work with states, yet retain autonomous from the state. The collective consolidation of the importance of autonomy was the third great achievement of the US Social Forum. THE FUTURE OF THE FORUM PROCESS The achievements of the USSF lend credence to Chico Whitaker's consistent principled defense of the Forum. The challenge that remains, and that Walden Bello has recognized clearly, is that while the Forum process at the global and local level is facilitating collective self-reflection – it has not yet produced effective, collective self-organization. There have been numerous discussions of global social movement projects, such as the Bamako Appeal and proposals for global political parties, but there has been no actual implementation. The war on Iraq continues, climate change has not been halted, worldwide inequality persists and corporations continue to rule the world. While the open space of the Forum has allowed for the creation of new networks it has not yet facilitated visionary projects. There have been great reactive events, such as demonstrations against the WTO negotiations– but there have been few alternatives that have actually been implemented by the global justice movements. That is the great overarching trial that the Forum faces. While the Forum has facilitated the capacity for local, national and global social movement reflection, it has not yet given birth to comparable forms of achievement. The essence of Walden Bello's argument is correct: the facilitators of the World Social Forum process must devise more innovative processes that will actually enable decisive political change. *Thomas Ponniah is a member of the Network Institute for Global Democratization - one of the founding organizations of the International Council of the World Social Forum; a member of Sociologists Without Borders, and of the WSF Boston Organizing Committee. He is also the co-editor of the book Another World is Possible: popular alternatives to globalization at the World Social Forum, and the author of a forthcoming book on global justice. Contact: Thomas.Ponniah at gmail.com ************************************************* IS THE WORLD SOCIAL FORUM APPROACHING A POINT OF CRISIS ? A NOTE TOWARDS A DEBATE ON THE WSF GLOBAL DAY OF ACTION Jai Sen on behalf of CACIM* Follow this link for the “open debate”: http://openspaceforum.net/twiki/tiki-index.php?page=Explorations+In+Open+Spaces THE PRESENT CONTEXT : A FUNDAMENTALLY NEW EXPERIMENT The WSF is attempting a fundamentally new experiment for the 2008 edition of its world meeting : In place of what has happened every year since it was founded in 2001 – a world meeting in a key location of the South -, and for which it is now so well known, it has this year called for a Global Day of Action on or around January 26 2008. On this day, or during the week around it, it has called on all those who are associated with it to act in favour of global social justice – and thereby, by everyone acting simultaneously, to make manifest a new kind of world meeting : Not a ‘real’ world meeting, as the WSF has traditionally been and been conceived as, but as a worldwide, so-called ‘virtual’ meeting of energies and ideas that will be generated and radiated by this simultaneous celebration and efflorescence all across the world. It is not as if the form of an action like this is totally new; there have been some somewhat similar actions in history, such as the worldwide anti-war demonstrations on February 15 2003 involving an estimated 15 million people, or the call for Earth Day in 1971 and since then, as one manifestation among others, the dimming and shutting off of lights across several countries in the world on certain days in the year as statements of ecological concern for the planet. Similarly, Amnesty International has been a pioneer since the 1960s in initiating ‘global actions’ on a range of human rights issues, which in turn have often been taken up by others; and more recently, awaaz.org has become very successful in mobilising millions of signatures in support of certain issues. But this is, perhaps, the first time even that such a complex, open-ended experiment is being tried : Where people and organisations in many parts of the world – since the WSF has attracted people from perhaps most parts of the world, now – and working in all kinds of fields, with all their diverse perceptions, are being asked to simultaneously manifest their concerns – their protests, their hopes, their alternatives. In a way, as opposed to the somewhat mechanical, clock-like action of people converging in one place for the different editions of the World Social Forum that have taken place so far, this time the organisers of the WSF have called on what can be conceived of as the cloud, or swarm, of social movement and concern across the world – what some call ‘the movement of movements’ - to, just for a day, simultaneously show itself – and thereby fleetingly make the cloud manifest. The call for this action is an extraordinary statement of organic hope and optimism in open-ended and emergent action. It is not a directive to action – which traditional movements issue to their constituents; the WSF has no power to do this (and thankfully, has not gone in that direction in taking this decision, even when under pressure to do so). It is something quite different. One could even say that nothing like this has ever been tried before; and that what the WSF is attempting is a fundamental challenge, in the most positive sense, to all existing notions of how (social and political) ‘movement’ takes place and should take place, which is – or has mostly been, so far – linear, directed, clock-like, and therefore (in theory, at least) relatively predictable and controllable. Over the life of the Forum since 2001, there have been several proposals that that Forum needs to be – if it is to be ‘truly effective’ in its aim of building another world – far more directed, far more ‘clear’, and far more committed to particular actions and programmes. In this year itself (2007), there have been several strong articles published that all, interestingly, conceive and portray the WSF to be at a ‘crossroad’, and urge all of us to be far ‘clearer’ in the direction we take and in what we do – and to change the Forum so that it becomes ‘clearer’ in its actions. One of these articles, authored by a very influential and persuasive scholar-activist, Walden Bello, also specifically proposes that it is perhaps time for the Forum to pack up its tent and move on, and make way for other things to happen. But note two things here : First, that each of these prescriptions follows the classical Descartian and Newtonian logic of ‘movement’ – that the entity (here, the WSF) is moving in a specific direction, has reached a certain stage or point, and now must make a choice among classically defined directions and options (“left or right ?”). But - and second - what has ‘the Forum’ (here, in the shape of its organisers, the WSF International Council) done, in the face of this challenge ? It has decided, amazingly (but I believe also, based on its history, characteristically), to take the boldest gamble of all : To reject linear, clocklike dynamics entirely – and the choice of this way or that -, and to instead attempt to manifest itself as a cloud that it in many ways already is – with its constituents going in all directions, in apparently random ways ! But where there is, in fact profound order that makes up the apparent chaos that clouds seem to be – but ‘order’ of a different kind. In many ways, this is a brilliant conception. On the one hand, it directly addresses the longstanding demand of those who have been proposing and demanding the space for more direct action (such as those who take part in the Assembly of Social Movements at each Forum), and not only allows but urges all those want more ‘clear’ actions to go ahead and do this. (Since there no one ‘meeting’ to be attended, with its specific and somewhat particular format of workshops, etc, you can do what you like and whatever you think is politically and strategically most meaningful.) And on the other hand, it equally validates and invites quiet reflection in small circles – and everything in between. In such a call, all such actions are understood to be equally valid, and to, in their own ways, generate and/or harness and radiate energy and movement that will light up the planet on that one, single, fateful, day, as an expression of shared concern, determination, and hope. But this, in a sense, is what the Forum has always done : Breaking new ground, constantly putting forward new ideas, new ways of doing things – and in the course of all this, itself organically learning and emerging – and, as I have argued elsewhere, emerging more as a cloud than as a clock. It is not entirely clear (from the statements they have issued, and from articles that some of them have subsequently written) whether those who have conceived of this formulation are necessarily aware of this meaning of their call. But this does not matter; and at one level, this is precisely the nature of emergent action and of organic emergence – that those who act are not necessarily individually aware of the nature of their actions or of the larger pattern that all the various actions add up to make. Like bees and ants; and like human beings, in all cultures. But the big question is : Will this gamble work ? And what, even if it does – in part or in whole -, is the social, political, and strategic significance and meaning of this action ? How will – how should - we assess it as well as its possible outcomes, in terms not merely of numbers or the range and diversity and actions but also of addressing the profound social, economic, political, and ecological injustice that rides so rampantly across the world ? For this is what the Forum is all about, and why it was conceived; and if it does not do this, then… In other words, is this just one more effete action by elite thinkers who only talk – or is this real political action ? THE FUTURE OF THE FORUM In many senses, all these questions are intimately related to the future of the Forum. Even as the organisers of the Forum have gone out on such a limb – for it is a huge gamble – there are deep stirrings within its body and all around it, about its future; and about, literally, whether it should even exist. There is, as already mentioned, the proposal before us all that it is perhaps time for the Forum to pack up and move on. (Though the essay in question, by Walden Bello, was perhaps meant not as a final statement but as a challenge to thought.) There are also legion thinkers, writers, strategists, and policy makers who have, all along, questioned the value of this experiment that is called the World Social Forum. They may be mostly from outside the Forum but they do have influence. There are also several today who argue the global social justice movement, of which the Forum is just one part (even if a very important part), has now had its day, and is now on a steep decline, imploding as it goes down. They in turn influence others, as such opinions tend to; a negative view of things, especially if well-argued, is often very contagious, sometimes at a subconscious level. But is this so ? Do you agree – is this your experience, and your understanding ? There are also many who have taken part in the Forum and who are profoundly disillusioned by it – by the apparent disorganisation of it all; by the power struggles that are always taking place; by the traumatic effects of these power struggles and how all this seems to so completely contradict the very soul of the Forum; by the exclusions that are so rampant; by the commercialisation and the conceptual and material corruption that seems so widely to be there; and by the possibility that it does not seem to be going anywhere. No one has perhaps yet done a count of how many people (and maybe also organisations) have dropped out of the Forum process over these years, but this accounting should also be done, sometime… But this dropout is real; and the issue is – what needs to be done, to address this ? What changes need to be brought about in the body and spirit of the Forum, in order to reverse this tendency ? And how can we bring about such changes ? And then there are the funders who are always, necessarily, waiting in the wings, trying to sense whether this is where they should be placing their bets – but where there are now signs that they are dropping out, one by one. But where – to be blunt – the Forum has been, after all is said and done, conceived on an assumption of the generosity on the part of funders to fund not only the ‘central’ Forum (the secretariat, the committees, etc) but also all the hundreds and thousands of people who attend Fora across the world – many (though not all) of whom depend on grants of one kind or another. And if the funders back out, either or both from backing the central WSF and the participants, then the experiment that is the WSF as a whole is likely to implode. Unless we can start thinking of alternatives… But - are there alternatives to the approach that has been taken to the Forum so far ? So this action, this call for a Global Day of Action (GDA), is a huge gamble. Because if it works, then everyone will be back in; but if doesn’t, or works only in a very limited way, then… the ship is likely to develop massive leaks. * Jai Sen is the co-director of CACIM, the India Institute for Critical Action : Centre In Movement. He has written extensively on the WSF. To respond go to this discussion, go to http://openspaceforum.net/twiki/tiki-index.php?page=Explorations+In+Open+Spaces ************************************************* ANSWERING CACIM’S CALL FOR AN WSF EVALUATION Chico Whitaker* We can evaluate the WSF with two different attitudes: wishing that the WSF disappears (“folding up its tent”) or wishing its continuity. If we are not convinced of its utility, and consider it a waste of time – some see it now even as an obstacle to gain efficacy in the struggle to overcome neoliberalism - we have only to identify what we can profit from this eight years of experience, and enter directly in a new stage of struggle. But if we see the WSF process as something helpful, we must on the contrary identify its virtues and strengths - as well as its weakness - and think how to reinforce it. During all the WSF life these two attitudes coexisted. For instance, many people who never swallowed the WSF Charter of Principles would like to abandon those principles that render difficult initiatives involving all WSF participants. On the contrary, others say the Charter must be respected as a vaccine against the hijacking of the process for specific objectives, and as a protection for the Social Forums against parties and governments interferences. It seems nevertheless that now we are approaching a dangerous situation: people who are insisting in the idea of the “point of crisis” or “crossroad” do it at the same time as others are multiplying activities in the WSF spirit in many parts of the world. That is to say, we are risking a disconnection between some people who “think” about the WSF process and others who “do” the WSF process. I don’t see the first group so joyful. On the other hand, I see the second ones working with enthusiasm in the roads opened by the WSF process, overcoming all “crossroads” - specially now, answering to the call for a Global Day of Action (GDA) on 26 January, as well as preparing new regional Social Forums in 2008 and the next World Forum in 2009 in the Amazon region. This risk is especially dangerous because we are going to have an important WSF International Council (IC) meeting end March in Nigeria. The main objectives of this IC meeting are to evaluate 2008, re-situate the WSF process in the present world problems and discuss its next steps. All this based on an evaluation of the world situation, which is not necessarily evolving in the sense of overcoming neoliberalism, wars, and violent confrontations. So, “disconnecting” the IC of the rest of the WSF dynamics would be disastrous. Naturally we have to overcome this risk. The way to do it, in my opinion, is adopting, in the evaluation CACIM proposes - and still more in the next IC meeting - the same approach we experience in the WSF decision making process. In our Organisation Committees, as well as in the International Council and its Commissions and Working Groups, we use the positive approach of looking for a consensus instead of voting. The vote to decide collectively is evidently a great conquest of humanity. But when it is used among social organizations it carries to divisions and separations, in advantage of the dominant power. Deciding by consensus pushes everybody not to see the errors of the others - to point then these errors to the voters - but the truths others are saying, to arrive to a new truth combining all known truths, in a constructive general consent, only way to build union. * * * Why is it that many people (of our “side”, naturally not among the neoliberalism partisans) do not “love” the WSF, even though they participate in it – although not always at ease? I found three major reasons for that. The first is the fact that the WSF is a novelty as political initiative. The two others are misunderstandings: about the WSF objectives and character and about the necessity of participating in it. Let me try to explain it better. ABOUT THE NOVELTY OF THE WSF PROCESS The WSF is really, in my opinion, a “political invention”, as said my colleague of the Brazilian WSF Organization Committee, José Corrêa Leite, in the title of his book written in 2003, before the one I wrote in 2004/5 also about the WSF. It was proposed in opposition to the World Economic Forum in Davos, but it was also deeply different. It was a new kind of Forum, as a place to assemble people for discussions about specific themes. And it pointed already to the different world we thought was possible. In which aspects is the WSF different from the Forums in which we were used to participate? The main differences were: the organisers were not events promoters (like for instance in Davos) but social organisations; no profit was envisaged (the fees of participation were nearly symbolic); the organisations carrying it out made a general “call to come” without specific invitations, travel tickets or lodging expenses paid (some known political leaders were uncomfortable with this); they did not determine the content of the discussions (only the general objective that could bring together those “called”); they did not choose key note speakers and debaters; they opened the Forum space to self-organised activities of the participants; and last but no least, they established that the Forum would not have final declarations or motions. Many things we see now more clearly were absolutely not defined in our minds in the beginning of the process. They were in fact only intuitions. We learned, and we are learning until now, Forum after Forum. Consequently, all these characteristics were not entirely respected in the first World Social Forum in 2001 in Porto Alegre, Brazil, except some especially important ones. As well till now they are not completely respected in all Forums organised in the WSF process, with the emergence of Social Forums, which could be regional, national or local. But these characteristics were and are present in the “facilitators” minds, who slowly try effectively to consider them in the organisation of Forums. This happened especially after the formulation of the WSF Charter of Principles, which defined more precisely the character of the World Social Forum, from the experience of the first one. The big problem nevertheless, was the fact that this political invention did not fit in in any of the existing categories of analysis and reflection about political action. The WSF was a strange “animal” that errupted, already with big dimensions, in the sea of our political initiatives. It was a non pyramidal Forum, situated much more in the logics of the networks, a new stream that was also appearing in the sea. This “animal” diminished the self-confidence of many people, who were used to working with tools of action and analyses built during more than a century. They would prefer, then, to stay where they were more at ease. Anyhow at its beginning the WSF was seen with a certain sympathy, as well as somehow inoffensive, so that could be accepted. Things became complicated when the Forum launched a new and different world process, with incidence in political practices. Some people began then to disqualify it – “it is a Woodstock of the left”, “in the Forums we only discuss and discuss”. But why was it necessary to create such unfamiliar and troublesome kind of Forum? I would say that we have seen a new political actor rising: the “civil society”- as citizens organized in social movements and other types of bodies – which needed a space to express itself. Later on we saw also that it would be good to feed the “animal”, because it could help overcome one big difficulty of the left: the fact that it was recurrently victim of the malediction of the division, weakening itself, for the pleasure of those who dominate the world. THE EMERGENCE OF CIVIL SOCIETY AS POLITICAL ACTOR In fact, the WSF was not created, as many people think, to enter in competition with political parties or replace their action, or to enter in competition with the struggle to “conquer” governments. Both types of political action are necessaries to build the new world. The WSF intended only to reinforce the so called “civil society” that was emerging in the world by its own initiative – that is, autonomous from parties and governments, and not accepting to be only part of their strategies. Throughout the work of organizing Forums, we saw also more clearly that the civil society articulation differs from that of parties and governments. It can be built only through horizontal networks, without leaderships and pyramids of responsibilities - overcoming the limitations of the representative democracy, with its “delegations” of power and internal struggles for power, typical of parties and governments logics. That is why we put in the WSF Charter of Principles that the WSF “does not constitute a locus of power to be disputed by the participants in its meetings”. But we saw more clearly, moreover, that the political action of this new actor is also different to the one of parties and governments. It unfolds as in the networks - in a big variety of types, rhythms, themes and levels of action, being developed autonomously by a big variety of organisations. That is why the WSF Charter refused a specific and unique WSF “political program”, to be endorsed by the organisations participating in the Forums. Anyhow, such a common program would be practically impossible to build, in the Forums or in the organising instances of the process, considering the number and diversity of organisations gathered in it. Naturally, parties, movements or governments can propose strategies to fight neoliberalism, or a new model of society to be built upon the ashes of capitalism, or a utopia to mobilize the crowds, rendering more foreseeable the territory of the unknown post-capitalism. Social Forums then can be places to discuss these propositions, but not to obtain its acceptance by all their participants. In this perspective, I would say that if the WSF International Council does not resist the temptation of trying to do a WSF “political program”, it really risks its own death, as it will be in a deep contradiction with the WSF logics. THE NEED OF BUILDING UNION All of us know that building union is important for all political actors engaged in changing the world – specially left political parties and movements. But it is still more important for the civil society as political actor. The force of the mobilized majorities – workers, electors, consumers, citizens – can be decisive in the political struggles. Parties and governments know it and use it in their strategies. But the diversity of interests inside the civil society may maintain it so fragmented that its force as an autonomous political actor may not emerge. Which kind of union would be then suitable for the civil society, to pressure for the majorities' interests and even build alternatives independently of parties and governments? Civil society organisations can support each other but not through tactical or strategic alliances, under centralized commandments. They only can be united by solidarity ties, assumed freely. WSF process was then envisaged as unlimited horizontal networking spaces at world, regional, national or local levels. They would create at first occasions for mutual recognizing, overcoming of prejudices among organisations and identification of convergences. Then the respect of diversity was seen as essential inside the civil society, as a practice to be exercised during the Forums and in the interrelations built in the Forums, pointing already to the future: the respect of diversity would have to be a fundamental value in the new world we wish. In addition, to advance towards the kind of union suitable for civil society, it was seen as necessary to overcome the poorness of the representative democracy, and to point towards the empowerment of the citizens; and, through the respect of their diversity, towards the development of their initiative and creativity, instead of moulding them in conformist behaviours. This process would then create conditions to experience new values contradicting those which motivate the action inside capitalism, and which we need to abandon to overcome this system: cooperation instead of competition, human needs instead of profits, respect for nature instead of its maximum exploitation, long term perspectives instead of short term interests, acceptance of differences instead of homogenisation, co- responsible liberty instead of egoistic individualism, being instead of having. These dynamics, lived in the WSF to build the civil society union, in its diversity and autonomous relations, could reinforce its action as political actor. And, as for parties and governments genuinely searching to answer to the human beings, the union is also necessary, this experimenting would be a positive message coming to them from the WSF process, pointing to new kinds of alliances. It must be said that all the intuitions behind the WSF “invention” were not new in the world. It was not something coming from zero. It was one of the results of at least 40 years of humankind thinking about political practices, criticizing authoritarianism and acting consequently. It appeared explosively in 1968, entered into a process of maturing with the horizontal networks as a new way to organise actions and with experiences like the Zapatistas from 1994, and arrived to a climax in the 1999 Seattle protests. The success of the process that began with the WSF in 2001 is due, I think, to the fact that its Charter of Principles announce clearly some simple conditions to develop these intuitions: the refusal of a final document of the Forums; the non-existence of leaderships directing the meetings or of spokespersons; the non-existence of a political programme of the WSF as a body; the absence of specific invitations to participate, in order to create an “open space”; the equal importance given to all activities inside the Forum; the possibility that the activities be proposed as much as possible not by the organisers but by the participants themselves; the refusal to accept activities inside the Forum organised by political parties or governments; the refusal of government interference, even and specially when they give logistical support; and the refusal of violence as a means in political action. The growing dimensions of the Forums is empirical evidence of the wisdom of these Principles, just as the non-respect of them can create problems as happened already in some recent occasions. So, if the WSF cannot change the world, it can create better conditions for it, through the reinforcement of the civil society as political actor and through the experimentation of new political practices, pointing to a new political culture. The problem then is the delay. This road towards the construction of civil society union – as well as the new kinds of alliances among parties -- needs time and involves deep changes of paradigms and behaviours. That is why the misunderstandings about the WSF process – that I will analyse now - not only remained but also grow. WSF - SPACE OR MOVEMENT? The first misunderstanding that appeared was related to a question: is the WSF a space or a movement? This question was already very much discussed and many old and new arguments for one or another option can be presented. I will not do it here. The book I wrote about the WSF -- “The WSF challenge” -- considers mainly this alternative. These options must in fact be considered in the context of the desire to change the world, as rapidly as possible, that motivates all WSF process participants. The Charter of Principles defined the WSF as a space and not as a movement, and established that it did not intend “to be a body representing world civil society”. Many people were frustrated and later “profoundly disillusioned”, as said the CACIM invitation to evaluate the WSF. They would prefer the WSF as a strong new movement or as a “movement of movements”. Seeing WSF “calling” capacity to put together tens of thousands of people of the entire world wishing to overcome the neoliberalism, they consider that it can be used to mobilize these people and many others to confront directly the dominant system. As if we had finally found the organisational issue to overcome the perplexity produced by the Berlin’s Wall fall. Why not put the WSF meetings at the service of concrete political actions, to realise as soon as possible all the changes having strategic priority, or to weaken the system by exploring its contradictions? This is the sense of “folding the tent”: abandoning the realisation of seemingly innocuous world, regional and national meetings for interchanges, reflections, learning and even articulation of the civil society organisations and movements, and tentering with all our force in the terrain of real politics, with the participation of political parties and even left governments – the really existing ones. Naturally nothing can impede us to adopt the option of WSF as a movement. If we think we are already sufficiently strong and united to be able to change the present tendencies of the world history, we could consciously end this stage of the WSF history, change in this sense the Charter of Principles and begin new reflections and alliances. Myself, I think that we are not so strong and we would be making a bad choice interrupting the present WSF process. Civil society is still not, unhappily, so strong a political actor as we would like, while left parties and governments remain confused. And left parties and governments seem to remain in the perplexity. I prefer to consider, as I wrote sometime ago, that both strategies – creation of spaces and launching movements - can and must coexist. We can continue in both “roads”. If this coexistence is accepted, they can reinforce each other. Social movements and organisations can launch through civil society forums new autonomous initiatives to overcome neoliberalism. Campaigns and pressures launched by them can be incorporated in the left parties and government’s programs of action. New movements and even “movements of movements” can be created, autonomous of the WSF events, as it happens already with the one we used to call “altermondialism”. Parties and governments, as well as movements linked to them, can do what they must do, as well as support the civil society spaces to build their union. If the WSF process continuity is ensured, as a tool to articulate civil society towards action, the challenge will be in the road of the “real politics”, where still we we still do not see clearly the best direction to take. THE “OBLIGATION” TO PARTICIPATE The second misunderstanding I pointed before was about something like a “moral obligation” to participate in all the world events of the WSF process, which the social organisations leaderships seem to feel. The continuous growing of the dimensions of these events -- 150,000 participants in 2005 in Porto Alegre -- pushed people to think that their presence was also necessary to affirm the WSF force. In fact the WSF organisers made a “call to come” to all civil society organisations which were “opposed to neoliberalism and to domination of the world by capital and any form of imperialism, and are committed to building a planetary society directed towards fruitful relationships among Humankind and between it and the Earth”, as indicated in the WSF Charter of Principles. As a result, all organisations struggling to build the “other world possible” were welcome. In the following Forums this open invitation made more and more people come, and the “animal” grew more and more. But the participation in world events, with all its consequences in financing and in preparation work, came on top of all the obligations of each organisation in its own struggles. After four years, naturally, many participants were tired with this supplementary effort. And they began, in the 4th WSF, in India, to propose the realisation of World Forums only every two or even three years. This solution was not adopted, as the Forums have also a symbolic dimension, with its annual rhythm, and their interruption could lead to a weakening of the process. But in fact the Forum is now a world level process, and it is this process that must be as dense as possible, with continuous expansion and articulations. Its meeting moments do not need to be as big as possible. The process is more important. If the meetings are big but are not supported by a growing articulation of the civil society organisations, their force is artificial. They may even mislead us, giving the false impression that behind these meetings we have a civil society which is articulated and dense. That is why the 2008 WSF format - free activities, in all levels, places and themes, self organized by WSF participants - seems to be very interesting, better than the 2006 format, with the polycentric Bamako-Caracas-Karachi World Social Forum. I would even say already that the 2008 Global Day of Action (GDA) format could be used every year from now on, independently but linked to the unique World Social Forum to be organized each year – such experience can be done already in 2009, when the World Social Forum will take place in the Amazon region. I recognize the force of the WSF invention in the variety of initiatives that are happening all over the world to prepare the GDA. In many, many countries different organisations are working together, respecting their diversity, in very creative ways, to appear together the 26 January 2008. Most of these organisations will never be able to come to a world or even regional meeting. But they will be linked in a unique decentralized event in the GDA. This articulation could be experienced (and deepened) every year, with a growing network of organisations. In fact, those who agree with the WSF utility would help it more efficiently by pushing the expansion of the process (by the multiplication of social forums and articulations all over the world at all levels) than coming to every world meeting. THE APPROACH TO EVALUATE Overcoming these misunderstandings, we can better analyse our experiences, and improve the way Social Forums are organized to ensure its functioning as the simple tool it is, at the service of social organisations and movements. This is the type of evaluation WSF needs: from inside it, by those engaged in it, bringing hope to the discussions, instead of the pessimism that tends to appear when we analyse it from outside. To prepare as best as possible the 2009 WSF and the following, we have to learn from all the World Forums already realized. Many difficulties could be identified in the last one, in Nairobi, but also in the previous ones. The “Organising Principles” being discussed in the International Council try exactly to avoid the repetition of errors, and to indicate the good way of solving the problems of such huge events. If this discussion could incorporate also the lessons coming from regional, national and local Forums it would be great. Jai Sen’s demand to publicize as much as possible the discussion of these “Organising Principles” must be welcome. (See above, and http://www.cacim.net/twiki/tiki-index.php?page=CACIMHome.) Among the WSF weakness, which we have not yet been able to solve, is, for instance, how to stimulate and help the Forums participants translate into new real articulated actions all the discoveries they make during the events (new questions, new convergences) and to deepen after the Forums, as intensively as possible, the articulations they built during them. In this perspective, we tried in each Forum new tools – such as the Mural of Propositions in 2005, and in 2007 the use of the fourth Forum day for the planning of actions. Both did not function as we would like. Since Nairobi we are also building a permanent tool to facilitate, through the internet, the interrelation among participants and their actions and campaigns, at a world level, before and after the Forums. But we have still to work, to make it easily accessible for everybody. Civil society articulations are not so easy exactly because the civil society structure is characterised by its dispersion and diversity. Even an important participant’s network, that emerged in the first World Social Forum particularly preoccupied with mobilization - the Social Movements Assembly – did not find till now the best way to do it. Some tensions appeared between them and the Forum’s organisers, with misunderstandings about this Assembly final document, as our Charter of Principles refuses a WSF final document. But in some regional Forums they present already very clearly their final declaration as theirs and not of the Forum as a whole. Anyway, they are still searching for the way to make their final assemblies a moment to engage their participants more deeply in the propositions that are presented. Other difficult questions are related with the results of the WSF process in helping to change the world effectively. One question already raised in some evaluations is the difficulty of many organisations to bring to their internal lives what they experienced or learned in the Forums. This could happen because some values lived in the Forums may bring problems to the internal functioning of the organisations, especially those concerning horizontal relations. Another question about results is linked with the changes at the personal level, in the motivations, behaviours and hopes of each one of us. In fact one of the discoveries made in the Forums was the direct relation between personal change and structural changes. To change the world we need also to change ourselves, internally, towards new values like those proposed in the Forums. And this is extremely difficult as, after the five Forum’s days, we are again entirely encircled by the practices we want to overcome. Actually the evaluation of these two types of results could be a good question to be put, at their arrival in the Forums, to the WSF events participants. They could at least become aware of this preoccupation, before living their new Forum experience. But the external result that anguishes more people, leading them to criticise the WSF, is the effective change of the world. In fact to consider these results we cannot forget that capitalism made many big steps to deepen the domination of the world, since the Berlin’s Wall downfall, which goes much further than military oppression and the control of economic logics and institutions. It subjugates the minds and the hearts, in nearly all the world – including among political leaders supposing fighting against capitalism. The world moves under the rules of the money and of the capitalistic values. There are many, many people struggling against neoliberalism and building new frames of life, but, actually, they still do not make very much difference. And thinking about the WSF itself, eight years are a very small time in the world history. In fact, if we ask if another world is possible, a good minority will say that it is not necessary and the big majority will say that it is not possible. Even those now fighting strongly for their rights would not necessarily be so motivated to change the world in its fundamental structures. The climate problems are opening the possibility of showing how these structures and values are in their origin. But we have still an enormous effort to do, to awake more people. We took seven years to see a little clearer in the WSF process that communication is perhaps our most important challenge. We still do not know how to obtain a significant inversion of perspectives in the world, to give hope to a more substantial portion of the human beings, so as to arrive to the critical mass that will enable real changes. Here we could see, perhaps, another good effect of decentralized activities like in the GDA, linked to World Social Forums: much more than only through world meetings poorly covered by the media, people will hear about the possibility of “another world” and will know that many people is working to build it. Another “internal” problem is related with the WSF IC, and the disconnection we risk between those who “think” the WSF and those who “do” it, that I have already considered in this text. This disconnection used to happen in political parties, between the Party leaders and the militants at the basis, or in the Unions. Paradoxically, it could happen also in the WSF process, where we don’t have categories such as leaders and supporters, and separations between those who think and those who do. But the IC members are delegates of the organisations members of the IC. They come mostly from the leadership of these organisations - in the logics of representation and delegation of power, whose poorness we denounce through the way we organise the Forums. For the “base” of our process, it is practically impossible to participate in the IC meetings, as I said already. Are, then, the IC meetings participants those who “think” the WSF? Or could we begin also to link everybody through the mechanisms we will experiment in the GDA? There is also a growing ambiguity about the IC “facilitator” role, and the decisions it finally takes. The frontier between “facilitation” and “direction” is not very sharp. The IC cannot decide about the WSF process participants’ struggles but it decides about how the process will evolve. This happens with the methodology used in the world events, for instance, even if the local organisers of each event are free to decide about it. If there are no impositions, we could say that our way of working is normal and useful: through the IC Commissions the local organisers can benefit from the experience of the Forums already realised. But it can also be felt as direction. The same happens with the steps of the process. The decision about stimulating a Global Day of Action in January 2008 was an IC decision. It did not send orders to the WSF process participants to take initiatives all over the world, and still less it defined the themes of the activities to be realized. But if we have an insufficient mobilisation it is possible that it will be attributed to a lack of direction. Let us see… These ambiguities could be avoided by the transparency of the IC publicising its structure, functioning and discussions, seen till now by many people as something mysterious and even secret, opened only to people of the “direction” of organisations participating in the WSF. But we still did not find the way to ensure this transparency. In conclusion, if we see the WSF with optimism, from inside, as a new useful and necessary tool that must be preserved and improved -- despite all these difficulties -- to reinforce civil society and push for a new political culture, we have a great many positive reflections to do. That is the approach of any WSF process evaluation and its future that can help us to really build the possible, necessary and urgent “other world”. I hope it will be the approach of the participants of the evaluation CACIM proposes, as well as of the participants of the IC meeting in Nigeria. * Chico Whitaker is one of the original memebers of the Brazilian organising committee which launched the first World Social Forum in 2001. He is an active member of the International Council. Email: intercom at cidadania.org.br ************************************************* ALEJANDRO KIRK OF THE INTER PRESS SERVICE, IPS, INTERVIEWS WALDEN BELLO ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THE WSF. The WSF as an "open space" idea can either be implemented in a liberal direction or in a committed, progressive direction, says Walden Bello, senior analyst of Focus on the Global South. IPS: How do you see the WSF's World Day of Action. How effective can it be?” WB: I think the WSF Day of Action is a good idea. It is a first step in moving the WSF from being simply a forum for discussion to becoming an arena for action. It will push people into actively taking on issues and mobilizing for them. Being local actions being undertaken globally, the many protest activities will also underline the transnational character of the social movements in the WSF, which is one of their key strengths. IPS: You have suggested that the WSF turns into a "new form". How do you see the future and shape of the WSF? WB: Taking stands on key issues like US aggression in the Middle East, Zionist oppression of the Palestinian people, and the poverty-creating neoliberal paradigm is vital to making the WSF vibrant and relevant. Refusing to take stands on the grounds that these will drive away some people is a sure way of ultimately making a movement irrelevant. The movements that advance and grow are those that are not afraid to take stands on the vital issues of our times. I am not talking about staking stands on 1001 issues but on the core issues of our times, maybe about six or seven of them. The WSF as an "open space" idea can either be implemented in a liberal direction or in a committed, progressive direction. Being partisan on issues that advance justice, equality, and democracy should be seen as a virtue, not as a stance to be shunned. IPS: What is the right balance between political action in the from of political parties and within the socal movement? How can this have an impact in Southeast Asia? WB: Political parties continue to be important vehicles for political transformation. However, social movements should see parties as one vehicle for transformation and should use other institutions and agencies, like unions and NGOs, to push their agenda. The vanguardist or Leninist party subordinating civil society organizations and movements to one overriding objective -- seizing political power -- is obsolete and dysfunctional. Transformation must take place along several fronts, and the process is just as important as the goal. Social movements must push for the instititutionalization of mechanisms, such as national assemblies of social movements, that could serve as a check on the bureaucracy, parliament, and other political bodies. Civil society should aggressively serve as a counterweight to both the state and the private sector. Civil society is a key actor in reinvigorating the democratic revolution, which has ossified into electoralism in most countries in the North and South. IPS: Since the first WSF, Latin America has experienced a spectacular shift to the left, in different shapes. What has this development to do with the WSF? Do you think this process will lead to meaningful change or will it eventually turn righwards? WB: Well, I think the WSF emerged from a process in Latin America where social movements were, as in Brazil, shaking up the traditional institutions of political representation. The Workers' Party in Brazil was, in its initial stages, an energetic hybrid of political party and social movement that captured the allegiance and imagination of the masses. However, a new stage was reached when the Workers' Party became a serious contender for power. It became "professionalized" and began attracting middle class elements that were interested only in limited social transformation. Then, in the last few years, during the Lula presidency, the state and the ancien regime have captured the Workers' Party. At the same time, in Venezuela, a charismatic relationship between a populist president and the urban poor became the vehicle for change in a country with weak social movements. Then in Bolivia and Ecuador, we had social movements with strong roots in the indigenous people achieve power electorally and begin, unlike in Brazil, a transformation of the state. IPS: How do these developments reflect in the WSF? WB: All of these developments have been reflected in the WSF, where, as in the continent from which it sprang, there are contending political tendencies in the ranks of the people. You have trends that are closer to the People's Party tendency and others that are closer to the Venezuelan and Bolivian tendency. What is important though is that the WSF and its associated movements remain independent of governments and parties and maintain their ability to criticize governments when they conciliate the US and neoliberalism, like Brazil under Lula, and lend critical support to governments like those of Venezuela and Bolivia. They should be able to express broad support for an initiative like the Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas (ALBA) while criticizing some of its more controversial plans like the building of oil and gas pipelines from Venezuela to Argentina, which would create ecological problems and destabilize indigenous peoples. Provided they remain independent of one another, social movements like the WSF and the new progressive governments can develop a healthy, positive relationship. 17 January 2008 *** FOCUS ON TRADE NUMBER 136, JANUARY 2008 Part 2 ** SPECIAL ISSUE ON THE WORLD SOCIAL FORUM ** http://www.focusweb.org/focus-on-trade-number-136-january-2008.html?Itemid=1 ******************************************* PART 2: THE WORLD SOCIAL FORUM AND THE GLOBAL LEFT Boaventura de Sousa Santos ************************************************* THE WORLD SOCIAL FORUM AND THE GLOBAL LEFT Boaventura de Sousa Santos* Enough has been said about the crisis of the left, and part of what has been said has worked as self-fulfilling prophecy. The mortal fatigue of history is the mortal fatigue of the women and men that make it in their daily lives. The fatigue increases when the habit of thinking that history is with us, when it is put in question, inclines us to think that history is irremediably against us. History does not know any better than we do where it is headed, nor does it use women and men to fulfil its ends. Which is to say that we cannot trust history more than we trust ourselves. To be sure, trusting ourselves is not a subjective act, decontextualized from the world. For the past few decades, the political and cultural hegemony of neo-liberalism gave rise to a conception of the world that shows it as being either too well made to allow for the introduction of any consequent novelty, or too fragmentary to allow for whatever we do to have consequences capable of making up for the risks taken in trying to change the status quo. The last thirty or forty years of the last century may be considered years of degenerative crisis of the global left thinking and practice. To be sure, there were crises before, but not only were they not global — restricted as they were to the Eurocentric world, what nowadays we call the Global North, and compensated for, from the 1950s on, by the successful struggles for the liberation of the colonies —they were mainly experienced as casualties in a history whose trajectory and rationality suggested that the victory of the left (revolution, socialism, communism) was certain. This is how the division of the workers’ movement at the beginning of World War I was experienced, as well as the defeat of the German revolution (1918-1923), and then nazism, fascism, franquismo (1939-1975) and salazarismo (1926-1974), the Moscow processes (1936-1938), the civil war in Greece (1944-1949), and even the invasion of Hungary (1956). This kind of crisis is well characterized in the works of Trotsky in exile. Trotsky was very early on aware of the seriousness of Stalin’s deviations from the revolution, to the point of refusing to protagonize an opposition, as proposed to him by Zinoviev and Kamenev in 1926. But he never for one moment doubted that history went along with the revolution just as the true revolutionaries went along with history. The author that, to my mind, most brilliantly portrays the increasingly Sisyphean effort to safeguard the historical meaning of the revolution before the morasses of the Moscow processes is Maurice Merleau-Ponty in Humanisme et terreur (1947). The crises of left thinking and practice of the last thirty or forty years are of a different kind. On the one hand, they are global, even though they occur in different countries for specific reasons: the assassination of Lumumba (1961); the failure of the Che in Bolivia and his assassination (1966); the May 1968 student movement in Europe and the Americas and its neutralization; the invasion of Czechoslovakia (1968); the response of American imperialism to the Cuban revolution; the assassination of Allende (1973) and the military dictatorships in Latin America in the 1960s and 1970s; Suharto’s brutal repression of the left in Indonesia (1965-1967); the degradation or liquidation of the nationalist, developmentist, and socialist regimes of sub-Saharan Africa that came out of the independences (1980s); the emergence of a new/old militant and expansionist right, with Ronald Reagan in the US and Margaret Thatcher in UK (1980s); the globalization of the most anti-social form of capitalism, neo-liberalism, imposed by the Washington Consensus (1989); the plot against Nicaragua (1980s); the crisis of the Congress Party India and the rise of political Hinduism (communalism) (1990s); the collapse of the regimes of central and eastern Europe, symbolized by the fall of the Berlin Wall (1989); the conversion of Chinese communism into the most savage kind of capitalism, market Stalinism (starting with Deng Xiaoping in early 1980s); and finally, in the 1990s, the parallel rise of political Islam and political Christianism, both fundamentalist and confrontational. Furthermore, the crisis of left thinking and practice of the last thirty or forty years appears to be degenerative: the failures seem to be the result of history’s mortal exhaustion, whether because history no longer has meaning or rationality, or because the meaning and rationality of history finally opted for the permanent consolidation of capitalism, the latter turned into the literal translation of immutable human nature. Revolution, socialism, communism, and even reformism seem to be hidden away in the top drawers of history’s closet, where only collectors of misfortunes reach. The world is well made, the neo-liberal argument goes; the future finally has arrived in the present to stay. This agreement on ends is the uncontested fund of liberalism, on whose basis it is possible to respect the diversity of opinions about means. Since means are political only when they are at the service of different ends, the differences concerning social change are now technical or juridical and, therefore, can and must be discussed regardless of the cleavage between left and right. In the mid-1990s, however, the story of this hegemony started to change. The other side of this hegemony were the hegemonic practices that for the past decades have intensified exclusion, oppression, destruction of the means of subsistence and sustainability of large populations of the world, leading them to extreme situations where inaction or conformism would mean death. Such situations convert the contingency of history in the necessity to change it. These are the moments in which the victims don’t just cry, they fight back. The actions of resistance into which these situations were translated, together with the revolution in information and communication technologies that took place meanwhile, permitted to make alliances in distant places of the world and articulate struggles through local/global linkages. The 1994 Zapatista uprising is an important moment of this construction, precisely because it targets a tool of neo-liberal globalization, the North American Free Trade Agreement, and because it aims to articulate different scales of struggle, from local to national to global, from the Chiapas mountains to Mexico City to the solidary world, resorting to new discursive and political strategies, and to the new information and communication technologies available. In November 1999, the protesters in Seattle managed to paralyze the World Trade Organization (WTO) ministerial meeting, and later many other meetings of the World Bank, International Monetary Fund (IMF), WTO, and G8, were affected by the protests of non-governmental organizations (NGOs) and social movements intent on denouncing the hypocrisy and destructiveness of the new world dis-order. In January 2001, the World Social Forum (WSF) met for the first time in Porto Alegre (Brazil), and many other meetings followed: global, regional, thematic, national, sub-national, local forums. Thus was gradually constructed an alternative globalization, alternative to neo-liberal globalization, a counter-hegemonic globalization, a globalization from below. The WSF may be said to represent today, in organizational terms, the most consistent manifestation of counter-hegemonic globalization. As such, the WSF provides the most favourable context to inquire to what extent a new left is emerging through these initiatives — a truly global left, with the capacity to overcome the degenerative crisis that has been beleaguering the left for the past forty years. The WSF is the set of initiatives of transnational exchange among social movements, NGOs and their practices and knowledges of local, national or global social struggles carried out in compliance with the Porto Alegre Charter of Principles against the forms of exclusion and inclusion, discrimination and equality, universalism and particularism, cultural imposition and relativism, brought about or made possible by the current phase of capitalism known as neo-liberal globalization. The WSF is a new social and political phenomenon. The fact that it does have antecedents does not diminish its newness, quite the opposite. The WSF is not an event. Nor is it a mere succession of events, although it does try to dramatize the formal meetings it promotes. It is not a scholarly conference, although the contributions of many scholars converge in it. It is not a party or an international of parties, although militants and activists of many parties all over the world take part in it. It is not an NGO or a confederation of NGOs, even though its conception and organization owes a great deal to NGOs. It is not a social movement, even though it often designates itself as the movement of movements. Although it presents itself as an agent of social change, the WSF rejects the concept of an historical subject and confers no priority on any specific social actor in this process of social change. It holds no clearly defined ideology, either in defining what it rejects or what it asserts. Given that the WSF conceives of itself as a struggle against neo-liberal globalization, is it a struggle against a given form of capitalism or against capitalism in general? Given that it sees itself as a struggle against discrimination, exclusion and oppression, does the success of its struggle presuppose a post-capitalist, socialist, anarchist horizon, or, on the contrary, does it presuppose that no horizon be clearly defined at all? Given that the vast majority of people taking part in the WSF identify themselves as favouring a politics of the left, how many definitions of “the left” fit the WSF? And what about those who refuse to be defined because they believe that the left-right dichotomy is a north-centric or west-centric particularism, and look for alternative political definitions? The social struggles that find expression in the WSF do not adequately fit either of the ways of social change sanctioned by western modernity: reform and revolution. Aside from the consensus on non-violence, its modes of struggle are extremely diverse and appear spread out in a continuum between the poles of institutionality and insurgency. Even the concept of non-violence is open to widely disparate interpretations. Finally, the WSF is not structured according to any of the models of modern political organization, be they democratic centralism, representative democracy, or participatory democracy. Nobody represents it or is allowed to speak in its name, let alone make decisions, even though it sees itself as a forum that facilitates the decisions of the movements and organizations that take part in it. (1) These features are arguably not new, as some of them, at least, are associated with what is conventionally called “new social movements”. The truth is, however, that these movements, be they local, national, or global, are thematic. Themes, while fields of concrete political confrontation, compel definition – hence polarization – whether regarding strategies or tactics, organizational forms or forms of struggle. Themes work, therefore, both as attraction and repulsion. Now, what is new about the WSF is the fact that it is inclusive, both as concerns its scale and its thematics. What is new is the whole it constitutes, not its constitutive parts. The WSF is global in its harbouring local, national and global movements, and in its being inter-thematic and even trans-thematic. That is to say, since the conventional factors of attraction and repulsion do not work as far as the WSF is concerned, either it develops other strong factors of attraction and repulsion or does without them, and may even derive its strength from their non-existence. In other words, if the WSF is arguably the “movement of movements” it is not one more movement. It is a different kind of movement. The problem with new social movements is that, in order to do them justice, a new social theory and new analytical concepts are called for. Since neither the one nor the others emerge easily from the inertia of the disciplines, the risk that they may be undertheorized and undervalued is considerable. (2) This risk is all the more serious as the WSF, given its scope and internal diversity, not only challenges dominant political theories and the various disciplines of the conventional social sciences, but challenges as well scientific knowledge as sole producer of social and political rationality. To put it another way, the WSF raises not only analytical and theoretical questions, but also epistemological questions. This much is expressed in the idea, widely shared by WSF participants, that there will be no global social justice without global cognitive justice. But the challenge posed by the WSF has one more dimension still. Beyond the theoretical, analytical and epistemological questions, it raises a new political issue: it aims to fulfil utopia in a world devoid of utopias. This utopian will is expressed in the slogan: “another world is possible.” At stake is less a utopian world than a world that allows for utopia In this paper, I will start by analysing the reasons of the success of the WSF, contrasting them with the failures of the conventional left in recent decades. I will then try to ask the question of whether this success is sustainable. Finally, I will identify the challenges that the WSF process poses to both critical theory and left political activism. STRONG QUESTIONS AND WEAK ANSWERS Contrary to Habermas, for whom Western modernity is still an incomplete project, I have been arguing that our time is witnessing the final crisis of the hegemony of the socio-cultural paradigm of Western modernity and that, therefore, it is a time of paradigmatic transition (3). It is characteristic of a transitional time to be a time of strong questions and weak responses. Strong questions address not only our options of individual and collective life but also and mainly the roots and foundations that have created the horizon of possibilities among which it is possible to choose. They are, therefore, questions that arouse a particular kind of perplexity. Weak responses are the ones that cannot abate this perplexity and may, in fact, increase it. Questions and responses vary according to culture and world region. However, the discrepancy between the strength of the questions and the weakness of the responses seems to be common. It derives from the current variety of contact zones involving cultures, religions, economies, social and political systems, and different ways of life, as a result of what we ordinarily call globalization. The power asymmetries in these contact zones are as large today, if not larger, as in the colonial period, and they are more numerous and widespread. The contact experience is always an experience of limits and borders. In today’s conditions, it is the contact experience that gives rise to the discrepancy between strong questions and weak responses. In my view, one of the reasons of the success of the WSF lies in the disjuncture between strong questions and weak answers. But before elaborating on this, a conceptual precision is in order. There are two types of weak answers. The first type is what I call the weak-strong answer. Paraphrasing Lucien Goldman, such answer represents the maximum of possible consciousness of a given epoch. It transforms the perplexity caused by the strong question into a positive energy and value. Rather than pretending that the perplexity is pointless or that it can be eliminated by a simple answer, it transforms the perplexity into a symptom of underlying complexity. Accordingly, the perplexity becomes the social experience of a new open field of contradictions in which an unfinished and unregulated competition among different possibilities exists. The outcomes of such competition being most uncertain, there is plenty of room for social and political innovation, once perplexity is transformed into a capacity to travel without reliable maps. The other type of weak answer is the weak-weak answer. It represents the minimum possible consciousness of a given epoch. It discards and stigmatizes the perplexity as the symptom of a failure to understand that the real coincides with the possible and to value the fact that hegemonic solutions are a “natural” o... [Message clipped] View entire message cross posted from DEBATE ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From tulunadu at hotmail.com Wed Jan 23 13:22:39 2008 From: tulunadu at hotmail.com (Krishna Chaithanya) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:22:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. In-Reply-To: <765870.47233.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <765870.47233.qm@web90414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: God will bless all. Corruption has done more damge to the country than anything else and in this everybody is involved irrespective of religion. Congress, BJP, Jall fractions of anata Dal, Samjavadi,BSP the red brigade etc..etc. They are all "Des drohis" not poor KC A nation is by the people, so all hold your concept of nation together, all cultures hold it together. May the god bless you again KC Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 22:27:49 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com God will bless me... I do not need those words from a 'Des Drohi'... I love my nation and know to live and die for her... And I know, my nation is called Hindustan because it holds in its arms the Hindu culture... Not your selfish and Hindu killing attitude... Jai Hind, ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 2:29:53 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. You are forgiven “Karmanye vadhikarasthe ma phaleshu kadachana Ma Karma Phala Hetur Bhurmatey Sangotsava Akarmani” God bless you KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:58:53 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com CC: reader-list at sarai.net Your Menu Card created by Supreme teaches you to allow Terrorists blast Hindus.. Your Supreme actually Blasts people.... so we creators of Supreme should allow them, because it is the Supreme who is doing it... Supreme has made me restless and Supreme has made you calm... May that Supreme keep you so calm even when your relations are abused by the same Terrorists... May that Supreme keep you calm when you find your Christian Children breaking the temples and hunting for Hindus... For Supreme is doing that... You are such an Ignorant person, I was talking to !!!!!!!!! Please forgive me... for disturbing you... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:07:54 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Who am 'I' to teach anybody? The Supreme teaches everyone. The Supreme creates Adharmis and then kills them. The Supreme creates Dhryodhana and then creates Arjuna. The Supreme creates Chanchal, me and all others whom Chanchal hates or dislikes. If they are Adharmis, the Supreme will destroy them. But the Supreme makes Chanchal restless, and makes Chanchal spew venom on people who disagree with Chanchal or have a different view point. And Chanchal forgets that Chanchal is created by the Supreme and the people who disagree are also created by the Supreme and then challenges others into comparision of holy books (as if they are the menu cards of different restaurants) Do yo need words to describe MAYA? OM SHANTI KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:24:59 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net I am sorry... I cannot dare to say that I am Lord Krishna... But I must dare to say that Arjuna need to be created... Paritranay Sadhunam Vinasaycha Dushkritam... DharmaSansthapnarthaya Sambhavami Yuge Yuge... Even God has to kill the Adharmis (be that be then Ravana or Kansa).. be that be then the Terrorised Invaders... Gandhi philosophy has weakened this nation... This nation was protected by Prithvi Raj Chauhan, Rana Pratap, Chhatrapati Shivaji, and so many of them.... This nation was also loved by Bhagat Singh, Subhas Chandra Bose, ChandraShekhar Ajad, Veer Savarkar, etc... This nation do not belong to Gandhi alone.. This nation do not belong to Sonia who has given free hands to Christians to convert Hindus to Christianity (and stupid Hindus are fighting with me here about their own Dharma without knowing anything)... This nation do not belong to Congress who have given every right to Terrorist under Bukhari to force Islamic law in various states over Hindus (and stupid Hindus do not have the gut and sense to even protect and respect their own Dharma)... I dont want to talk to you further... You can sell your house and your people in hands of Christianity and Islam... I cannot... For me my dignity lies in holding my own self and my own self lies in being a Hindu - a Bharat wasi... Let me live with this and let me have people of this thought around me... For you, teach what you are teaching me to a Muslim... and you will know the truth... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 12:21:51 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Are baba, Who is this 'you' and who is this 'I' who am 'I' to differentiate between what is Dharma and What is Adharma, it is already differentiated. Don't be sorry... it is understandable that in this material world any scholar would get lost. Action is living Dharma and doing Karma. When a society forgets that, to remind them invaders come. And if the invaded do not realise why they are invaded get back to theuir Dharma and Karma, they will be dominated for thousands of years. History of the world is that. Are you claiming that you are lord Krishna and therefore talking of creating Arjuna....? I would say blasphemy! KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:37:00 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net After reading Bhagwad Geeta, if you are not able to differentiate between what is Dhrama and what is Adharma... What is Sattvika and what is Tamasika... I am sorry... Bhagwad Geeta is not a a book for those who have given up action... It is for those who knows what is duty (not religion for Dharma means duty in Hinduism and not Religion, unlike all other religion).... And now when Adharma is coming on top of Dharma, it is now time to create Arjuna, who can understand Geeta and perform action in protection of Dharma... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:48:27 AM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Dear Chanchal, Who is this 'You' that you mention. Am I not you...? are you not me...? who is the thinker...? Mantra is not for thinking it is for feeling... experiencing. May be you should read Sri Mad Bagavadgeeta again. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:22:05 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net You are a selfish person... Realizing Shanti only for you... The mantra is far deep than you can even think... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: reader-list at sarai.net; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:37:06 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. What I know can not be expressed in words. I feel peace within me when I Chant OM SHANTHI SHANTHI SHANTHI. It appears like you you understand what is OM and why there is Three Shanthi. But how come there is no sign of peace! I don't care if any other religion has such slogans in their religious books. It doesn't make any difference to my belief and faith in the Supreme. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:44:33 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com Do you understand also... what is OM and why is there Three Shanti... Do you know any other religion which has such slogans in their religious books... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:28:20 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Om Shanthi Shanti Shanti hi KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:53:35 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: tulunadu at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net How many bombs you have thrown.. Ask this to them... Not us... We are reacting.. They are acting... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:19:37 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society....!? We bomb them and they bomb us and we bomb them and they bomb us together we bomb us then who is left to bomb...? KC > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:33:09 +0500 > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > Hi, true, it for too long hindus have been tolerent leading to a sarcastic comment that they are cowards, may be Nehru was coward when India was divided for his greed,may be Krishna menon loved chinese vaginas more than indian ones, but now it is time that hindu understood the value of SAMA, Dana, BHEDHA are over, dandam dashagunam bhaveth. Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: chanchal malviya > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:24 am > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > To: Javed , reader-list at sarai.net > > > It is time for Hindus to rise now... > > And no dicussion or virtual communities can stop it... > > > > Swami Vivekanand said - India have enough of religion.. > > And it is time now to say this to Christian and Muslims who force > > conversions the same thing.. > > If Sanskrit is the mother of all languages, Hinduism is the mother > > of all Religions... (But two religions have in particular always > > learnt to abuse their mother(Hinduism) - Islam and Christianity)... > > It is time now to stop the nation from producing more Kashmirs... > > It is time now to stop the non-Independent Religious India... > > > > So go on my dear friends as much as you like to abuse Hindus.. > > It hardly matters now.. > > > > Ramayan is proving to be a reality, Mahabharat is a reality.. > > History will also change.. > > It is Hindus that have taught peace to the world.. but to do that > > again, the two attackers have to be checked now.. > > People are doing that.. And will do that.. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Javed > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 6:00:16 PM > > Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > India's Islam > > by Arun Nair > > > > Firstly, I must apologise if this article smacks of an impolite > > urgency and prescriptive-ness. I mean not to be arrogant, but as > > someone addressing you on a matter of deep concern to us all, I felt > > that there was little room for ceremonial apologies before every > > sentence. Also, as an Indian middle-class Hindu who grew up in the > > Babri-masjid 90s, it is easy for me to say some of the things I say > > here. > > > > Secondly, I address you, the reader, as an Indian citizen, not as a > > saintly Kabir or Gandhi preaching love for humanity. Our collective > > interests are being threatened by communal forces from within and > > without. WE MUST ACT. We must not merely lament about our respective > > versions of helplessnesses and others' faults. We are free today > > because India's greatest generation shook off the ghosts that > > bedevilled them, and took action to protect our interests. I implore > > you to continue that legacy. > > > > Thirdly, while I will go into what in my opinion are highly plausible > > theories of Indian nationhood and nationalism, my primary aim here is > > not to write any treatise on politics or sociology, but to protect our > > rights to belong equally to India – our common ancestral land – as > > Indians, and as free, dignified humans. > > > > Fourthly, my ideas will be presented largely based on first > > principles, also known as common-sense. > > > > My thesis is this: India must boldly assert its claim on Islamic > > civilisation in the subcontinent. That is the key to end our communal > > woes. > > > > This does not mean that India must become Islamic, or that Indian > > Muslims must be somehow Hinduised. The idea, instead, is to campaign > > relentlessly for India's Islamic civilisational authenticity. > > > > In the Indian psyche, Pakistan stands for Islam. Sadly for us and > > admittedly in a weaker form, Islam is also synonymous with Pakistan > > and everything Pakistani. This wouldn't have been so bad if Pakistan > > wasn't, well, un-Indian. We must use every tool at our disposal as a > > people to destroy the entrenched idea of Pakistani ownership of > > subcontinental Islam from within India. More importantly, this idea > > must be attacked from without it, because that is where it originates. > > > > Our chief weapon to eliminate Islam-Pakistan hyphenation from the > > subcontinent will be an authentic claim: the centre of Islamic > > civilisation in South Asia has always been undivided India, and after > > partition, India is its natural primary heir. The fact that a few > > million Muslims left India during partition to settle in our erstwhile > > outlying provinces doesn't change this. Neither does the fact that the > > Indian people chose a progressive, secular, democratic polity for > > their republic. > > > > In our minds and in the world's view, subcontinental Islam is under > > Pakistani occupation. The historical Indo-centric nature of > > subcontinental Islam should be used to throw off this psychological > > yoke. I urge Indians to rally together once again as our greatest > > generation did to protect our collective interests as the people of > > India. I urge friends of India all over the world to join us. Both in > > terms of geography and spirit, Islam in the subcontinent that > > coexisted and flourished alongside Indic cultures, has always been > > more Indian than Pakistani. If any single country represents > > subcontinental Islam as it historically was, it is India. Not > > Pakistan. > > > > India's Mughals. India's Qutub Minar, Gol Gumaz, and Taj Mahal. > > India's Kabir. India's Tipu Sultan, Shah Jahan, Akbar, and, why not, > > Aurangazeb. India's Urdu. India's Ghalib and Khusro. India's Delhi, > > Lucknow, Mysore, Hyderabad, Malabar, and Agra. > > > > Good history has to be deliberately written > > > > The people of India inherited thousands of years of history and > > associated baggage that we didn't really ask for. > > > > Keep in mind though that history is not a dead object - it is > > unfurling even as you read this. We may not be able to change what > > happened in India 200 years ago. But 200 years from now when people > > look back, they will see the Indian history that our generation wrote. > > It becomes then our duty, both as Indians and as sensible humans, to > > write it well. > > > > It is a great privilege to deliberately be able to write a part of > > something grand like the history of India. The first generation of > > Indians who did a coordinated job of writing our history was the one > > that won us our independence – our "freedom-generation". They could > > have attempted to write their Indian chapter any way they wanted to. > > We could have had a dark, China-style communism, for instance. But, > > given the Indian context, the freedom-generation chose the most > > egalitarian, elegant, and humanist theme they could come up with: a > > secular, liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, that takes its > > strength from its inherent pluralism and its inheritance of one of > > mankind's greatest civilisations. > > > > The freedom-generation's legacy for us is the deliberate and > > intelligent manner in which they forged an Indian national identity. > > Thanks to their efforts, our nationality is a solid concept. An Indian > > from Karnataka has a robust nationalistic bond with Indians say from > > Punjab, Gujarat, Assam, or Delhi. Regardless of what languages we > > speak, we all recognise Marathi, Tamil, Bengali and Telugu as Indian > > languages – ancestral assets that all Indians collectively own. > > > > It is a mistake, however, to think that the nation-building task they > > began is complete. Indian nationalism is not an idea frozen in time, > > but an evolving one. We, the successors of India's freedom-generation, > > must exercise our prerogative to define its finer contours and bring > > in new ideas to enrich it. Furthermore, we have an obligation to both > > our founding fathers and India's posterity to do this while being true > > to our quintessential Indian-ness, the just, egalitarian nature of our > > country as embodied in our constitution. > > > > Given that India's situation is not as pressing as it once was, new > > nationalist leaders – giants of the stature of Mahatma Gandhi, Khan > > Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Subhash Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh, Jawaharlal > > Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad or Vallabhai Patel – may be difficult to > > emerge. There is no need to though. We succeeded them, and we must > > take this task upon ourselves. The freedom-generation watches over us > > in the form of our fraternity as Indians which they moulded at a great > > cost, and our constitution. > > > > Indian Nationalism - the idea of Indian brotherhood > > > > Amidst all this noisy consternation of Taslima Nasrin, Babri-masjid, > > BJP-Congress etc., its easy to lose sight of the really big pictures. > > Consider, for instance, this question: what really is the essence of > > Indian nationalism? Why do we all feel so closely tied to India > > and to > > each other? > > > > My answer is that, to put it simply, without the land we call India, > > Indians either have no identity, or very anaemic identities. All > > Indians share this same curious relation to India. > > When we are born to the same human mother, we are brothers. Our > > constitution formed by our freedom-generation explicitly asserts > > fraternity among the Indian people. Fraternity – brotherhood. In what > > sense are we brothers? > > > > Indians are brothers in the sense that the motherland that birthed my > > identity, also birthed yours. India is our ancestral land, and we > > should be proud of everything associated with it. Everything in India, > > its religions, its good and its bad, its languages, its glories and > > struggles, its rivers, its emperors, its heroes and villains, > > everything – is intricately weaved into our consciousnesses of who we > > are, where we come from, what our place in this world is, and how > > other humans see us. Without that identity, we are crippled. > > > > Ours is no ordinary brotherhood. Indian people didn't come into being > > merely a few centuries ago. We are an ancient civilisation, and what > > we have is a civlisational brotherhood – a bond arising from all of > > our belonging to the civilisation that unfolded in the same land, > > India. That brotherhood was formally declared through the constitution > > in 1949, but it existed much before that. Before our greatest > > generation gave it a concrete wording in the 20th century, it was well > > moulded in the crucible that is our land, in the fire of the previous > > several dozen, if not more, centuries. > > > > Every country of the world has stories that define their national > > essences. What is the most essential feature of Indian > > nationalism? It > > is our Indian identity – our being tied to India, and our > > civilisational brotherhood to each other in being bonded so. All > > Indians, regardless of their religion or language, has this bond with > > India and with each other. > > Indians must pause for a while and think why our anthem's going over > > our landmarks is so emotive. Or why Hindu-Muslim-Sikh-Christian > > insignia are powerful. Or why merely thinking of our history, or our > > Kerala, Karnataka, Maharashtra, UP, Punjab and Bengal moves all of us > > equally. > > > > It's because they remind us of our organic ties to India, and the > > brotherhood that we have with each other. This natural bond given to > > us by our glorious and at times bloody history is important. If we > > don't uphold this bond with the ferocity that our greatest generation > > did, if we don't use it to protect our common interests, our country > > will remain weak. > > > > Our country's nature > > > > What is the nature of our country? What does it mean for something > > to be Indian? > > For one, if all of us Indians could get together today and declare in > > one voice that India stands for certain values, then that would be an > > authoritative statement. India is what Indians say it is. If, say, the > > people of the then-Indian civilisation – Hindus, Muslims, Christians, > > Buddhists, Sikhs, and Jains – had made such a statement 400 years ago > > and preserved its spirit through centuries, that would have probably > > have been one of the greatest Indian texts. > > > > If you will recall, a very similar event actually did happen in 1949, > > when the founding fathers of the Indian republic adopted, enacted, and > > gave to ourselves - the sovereign people of India - our constitution. > > The preamble reads, > > > > "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India > > into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure > > to all its citizens: > > JUSTICE, social, economic and political; > > LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; > > EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among them all > > FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and > > integrity of the Nation. > > IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, > > do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION." > > > > In an absolute sense, the values of justice, liberty, and equality > > have an intuitive appeal to all humans everywhere. However, the > > formidable authority of our constitution comes from the crushed but > > proud people who paid a very high price for our right to live as > > equals and as dignified humans in India. We must take their word for > > what India is – they must have known and dreamt quite a bit about it. > > > > India's greatest generation definitely realised that divisivism, > > self-doubt, and other demons from our past would haunt the republic > > they formed. Which is why the constitution is important. It helps us > > protect our country from ourselves. > > > > The Constitution. Indian Nationalism. How we will defend India. > > > > Those who doubt the moral power of our freedom-generation, our > > constitutional ethos, and Indian nationalism need only look at > > Pakistan, which renounced all these in its attempts not to be seen as > > Indian. Pakistan's leaders, in trying to defend their divisve national > > philosophy, forced the most horrible bankruptcy on its people. > > > > Rather than using Indian nationalism and the constitution to tackle > > our communal issues, I am appalled at the general trend to merely > > lament that India is on its way to being declared an non-secular state > > - the hundreds of millions of Indians fully intent on preventing this > > notwithstanding. > > > > Pakistan-style Islamism, Ummah-isation of Hinduism, alienation of > > Indian Muslims > > > > There are three major trends in India today that are relevant to > > our topic. > > > > Firstly, India has very serious conflicts of interest with Pakistan. > > We have gone to war with that country several times. Its society has > > issues with radicalisation and a general religious orthodoxy. Its > > regimes have relentlessly attacked India's internal fault-lines over > > the past few decades in the name of Islam. Tens of thousands of Indian > > soldiers have died defending our country against them. It is > > distinctly un-Indian and anti-Indian. > > > > Secondly, Hinduism is, for the lack of a better word, Ummah-ising, and > > this at times takes horrifyingly militant forms. I, given my personal > > biases, am all for Hindu solidarity and abolishing pseudo-secularism. > > However, an argument for Hindu-solidarity should not be allowed to > > take the form of an un-Indian religionalism that goes against the very > > spirit of India. > > > > Thirdly, Indian Muslims feel alienated from their own country. In > > India, Pakistan is synonymous with Islam. Unfortunately, Islam is also > > weakly synonymous with Pakistan. This has significantly undermined > > Indian Muslims' political standing in India vis-a-vis their fellow > > citizens. > > > > The havoc all this has wreaked on our society must not be ignored. > > India was home to one of humanity's greatest Islamic cultures for well > > over 1000 years. It is not, by any means, a dead part of our > > culture - > > nearly 160 million Indians are Muslims, several national icons are > > Muslims, mosques and Islamic architecture litter the country, and > > Muslim holidays are shared by all. And yet, to a lot of Indians, Islam > > doesn't feel Indian, but Pakistani. Despite their respective religious > > majorities, it is odd that Buddhism doesn't feel Sri Lankan, or > > Hinduism itself, Nepali. > > > > The partition of India and secular India's deprivation of its Islamic > > authenticity > > > > Has anyone thought what has actually happened here? Why is it that in > > India, an ancient civilisational land which has a unique Islamic > > culture just like Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, Islam is seen as somehow > > foreign? That is not because of Islam's being inconsistent with India > > – 1000 years and more of history and our combined freedom struggle > > should have proven this by now. > > > > During partition, founders of Pakistan expropriated the subcontinent's > > Islamic identity for defining their nation, Pakistan. Pakistan's > > struggle to keep its ideology alive has robbed us of our Islamic > > authenticity. India's secular nature not-withstanding, the ardour with > > which Pakistan argued itsideology and pushed its exclusivist national > > philosophy within the larger Islamic community ensured that it gained > > some traction in the Indian society. Pakistan's military conflicts > > with "Hindu" India only amplified this. > > > > It only takes a few of decades of intense activity for a new Zeitgeist > > to take root in a society. Consider denazification of Germany, China's > > turn into capitalism, and India's own economic liberalisation. 30 > > years – that is all it takes for a young generation to grow up shaped > > by a pervasive ideology. > > > > Though quite smaller than India, Pakistan is by no means a tiny > > nation. It is the world's 6th most populous country, one of its major > > economies, and a prominent player during the cold war. One cannot find > > fault with it - Pakistan had to defend its national philosophy. It has > > expended a tremendous amount of national effort over the last 60 years > > in achieving a strong association between subcontinental Islam and > > itself. > > > > They have succeeded splendidly. Islam in the subcontinent today is > > seen as prominently Pakistani and India's secular fabric warped by > > that perception. Pakistan is an Islamic nation - this somehow gives > > them a stronger claim on everything Islamic in the subcontinent. The > > world simply does not recognise India's Islamic authenticity, and > > neither do many Indians within. India continues to be associated > > primarily with Hinduism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, but not Islam. > > > > Does religious brotherhood entirely negate the organic bonds a human > > has to his ancestral land and its history, and to his fellow humans > > who share the same bonds as him? I don't really know. What I do know > > is that this is not the principle on which the Indian republic was > > founded, and its definitely not an Indian value. Religious supremacism > > and breaking up of Indian people are un-Indian philosophies. It goes > > against the very spirit of our freedom struggle, nationalism, and our > > constitution. > > > > Indians must remember that new Pakistani generations do not even have > > the same right to speak for India's Muslims that their earlier > > generations might have had. Indian democracy has proven this > > unnecessary anyway. > > > > Indo-Pak culture-drift and attempts at an unnatural bonhomie > > > > There is a delusion among the political class and Indian people that > > our shared past can be used to achieve friendly relations between > > India and Pakistan. My view is that in doing so, we are only > > reinforcing the internal Islam-Pakistan hyphenation. > > > > When historical developments asunder a people, over a period of time > > the newly formed groups drift increasingly farther from one another. > > Once upon time, Myanmar and Sri Lanka were part of India, just like > > Pakistan and Bangladesh. Afghanistan was part of several Indian > > empires. Today, though at a national level we have very cordial > > relations, they are distinctly unfamiliar to us. > > > > Such a natural drift has definitely taken place between India and > > Pakistan. The strongest bond between us that keeps us in each others' > > national memories is not anything positive that we share, but the > > acrid legacy of partition. It's hard for me as an Indian, for > > instance, to imagine such an Islamism taking hold of Pakistan if it > > were under Akbar's rule. That is, if it were under genuinely > > Indian-style Islamic rule. > > > > I am not suggesting we should actively pursue enmity with Pakistan or > > vilify it. However, its being clumped together with Indian Muslims is > > simply not healthy for India. What has Pakistan's 'leadership' of > > subcontinental Muslims, its advocacy of religious supremacism within, > > and its enmity with India effectively accomplished? It has robbed > > India of its genuine Islamic authenticity in the world's eyes, and > > caused non-Muslim Indians to reject the culture of an un-Indian enemy. > > Pakistan has highlighted Indian Muslims' being Islamic and > =3E consistently de-emphasized their being Indian. > > > > Pursuing an unnatural bonhomie with Pakistan and stressing our > > similarities with them will only weaken our case for our differences, > > which are very real. To uphold our national interest, we must assert > > and amplify these differences. > > > > Replace Islam-Pakistan hyphenation with Islam-India hyphenation in the > > subcontinent > > > > I urge Indians to spearhead a change of perception of Islam in the > > subcontinent. Anything that prevents Indian Muslims' fully asserting > > their claim on India as Indian citizens is against the national > > interest. The strong association in India between subcontinental Islam > > and the present day un-Indian Pakistan must go. > > > > It is tempting to claim that all South Asian countries share Islamic > > civilization equally. It may be polite and civil to do so, and it may > > even have some historical merit, but it's a weak claim for our > > purposes. It doesn't have the necessary boldness and self-conviction > > to be effective. It also doesn't forcefully argue for India's Islamic > > authenticity. Our aim is to end Islam-Pakistan hyphenation for the > > welfare of a billion humans, not to be fair observers of history. We > > must hence push the strongest nationalistic claim possible: Islam in > > the subcontinent is Indian, and it always has been. > > > > Indian Islam never 'went' anywhere – it is alive and well amidst us. > > Our nationalism and constitution are guarantees that it will > > thrive if > > Pakistan would let go of it. When the world thinks of Hinduism in > > South Asia, it thinks of India. Sikhism, it thinks of India. Buddhism, > > India. When it thinks of Islam in South Asia, it must think of India. > > Everyone in the subcontinent will be better off. Everyone. > > > > The idea that Islam in the subcontinent is primarily Indian can gain > > currency only through a concerted nationalist campaign. No apologies > > should be made for such a movement. No one need be convinced of its > > proponents' "patriotism". The obvious worthiness of the cause, its > > truth, and its urgency are justifications enough. > > > > What ideas might such a campaign seek to make current? > > > > The countries in our region share an intertwined, messy history. We > > have a lot in common - languages, religions, culture, quirks - all > > part of our common and colourful heritage. > > > > However, if our historical and religious assets must be divided > > amongst us, then the worthiest inheritor of Islamic heritage in the > > subcontinent can only be India. Not Pakistan, not Bangladesh, not Sri > > Lanka, not Myanmar, not Nepal. India is the only nation that has been > > true to the historical spirit of Indian Islam – that of flourishing > > alongside other Indic faiths in India. > > > > Slay our demons ourselves > > > > Has it ever struck you that in our country, we have a vicious > > circularity of the following sort: we feel dismayed that the > > country/political class/leadership has done nothing for us; a form of > > apathy and resignation sets in; the country/political class/leadership > > continues to do nothing; we feel increasingly more dismayed. > > > > We are a democracy. We individually must act. Things won't happen > > if we don't. > > I urge Indians to assert India's secularism and nationalism to fight > > alienation of the Muslim community from Indian mainstream. This battle > > is the easier one to win – there are hundreds of millions of > > reasonable Indians, the Indian constitution, the liberal press, the > > legacy of our freedom-generation, and truth and justice on our side. > > > > I also urge Indians to fight Pakistani supremacy of subcontinental > > Islam from the outside. That is the root of all our problems. That is > > the key battle in India's war against communalism. We must learn to > > say, "Thanks, but no thanks. I understand what you mean, but this is > > not really true" to anyone who stresses commonalities of any sort in > > the subcontinent. > > > > Who will go first? > > > > Based on the concept of ownership of our destiny, what are the answers > > to these questions: > > > > "But how can non-Muslims claim that Islam in the subcontinent is > > Indian when it is represented by Pakistan and Indian Muslims > > themselves imply so?" > > > > "How can Indian Muslims make the Indo-centric claim when there is a > > genuine sense of their alienation in India and rest of Indian society > > accuses them of siding with Pakistan. We cannot move against Pakstani > > Muslims. There is a lot in common between us." > > > > I don't know! I am definitely going, in my own way. That I know. I > > will not ever treat any Indian by as automatically allied with a > > foreign, inimical power. I will continue making people aware of the > > need to end the subcontinental Islam-Pakistan association and replace > > it with Islam-India. > > > > We shall NOT vilify. We shall have faith. > > > > Indians should stop vilifying each other. Not because it would be > > saintly to do so, but because it only weakens our unity. > > > > Our nationalism and our constitution are solid stuff. Our greatest > > generation did their job well. If we must challenge our fellow > > Indians, invoke these instruments. Face with stead-fast stoicism any > > slurs, any accusations of you being an anti-Indian Muslim or a > > communal Hindutvawadi. Let the diatribe die down. Repeat your > > arguments invoking our nationalism, constitution, and your reasoning > > again. Do not ask anyone to 'prove' his or her patriotism. It's > > demeaning to do so. > > > > Satyameva Jayate – truth alone triumphs. If you are right, you will > > win. Have faith in our country and in every Indians' goodness and > > genuine attachment to their land. > > > > Augmenting India's ideological basis > > > > Earlier I mentioned that our work on Indian nationhood is not a frozen > > process, but a continuing one. We can and must correct any earlier > > mistakes that continue to torment India's communal harmony. > > > > If the greatest challenge the freedom-generation faced was ending the > > British rule and forming a stable republic, the greatest challenge > > before us is to take back leadership of subcontinental Islam from > > Pakistan. Our challenge is to do this without sacrificing India's > > secular nature. > > > > To tackle our new communal challenges in the 21st century, I propose > > the following: > > 1. Secularism will continue to remain the Indian union's lynch > > pin. It > > should not, however, require any particular religious group's giving > > up their right to assert religious solidarity. We should genuinely > > address any concerns about hypocrisy in the name of secularism. > > > > 2. India is a mature concept, and we should actively use it to tackle > > the challenges before us. Secularism is an integral part of our > > nationhood and a historically irreversible development. It follows > > that religionalism – wherever it is practised – is distinctly > > un-Indian. Within India, it is also anti-Indian in the sense that they > > weaken India and goes against its spirit. > > > > 3. The natural heir to Islamic civilisation in the subcontinent is > > India. Subcontinental Islam has always been an Indian phenomenon. > > Pakistan's oft-reinforced association with Indian Muslims must be > > destroyed. > > > > 4. India's brotherhood with its neighbours is dying. Soon there will > > be an Indian generation which doesn't have a single Indian born before > > partition. Every single human in the subcontinent would have been born > > in the countries as they existed after partition. The continuing > > attempts to maintain an unnatural bonhomie with India's hostile > > neighbours is not a tenable project - Pakistan has moved too far away > > from what was once India. > > > > Indian Muslims. India's Islam. > > > > A shockingly large amount of our national energy is wasted in > > countering the effects of Islam-Pakistan hyphenation in the > > subcontinent. > > > > The solution is simple. Reclaim the part of Indian identity that was > > robbed of us some 60 years back. If India is Hindu, then for similar > > reasons, it is also Buddhist, Sikh, Christian - and Islamic. Purported > > authority over sub-continental Islam by other entities in the > > subcontinent is an outrageous farce that must be ended right away. > > > > There is no obligation to do this meekly. India doesn't have > > merely a > > substantial claim or merely an equal claim. It simply has more right > > to subcontinental Islamic heritage than anyone else by an > > overwhelmingly large margin, period. We must use it for our national > > well-being. > > > > Who can assert subcontinental Islam's Indian nature boldly, loudly, > > without an iota of self-doubt or hesitation? Who needs this to be done > > most urgently? Who suffers from a deprivation of their right to belong > > to India the most? The Hindus? Sikhs? Buddhists? Christians? Jains? > > Clearly not. Who else? > > > > The Indian Muslims. The others are left distinctly poorer and their > > country's communal harmony stressed, but their Indian genuineness is > > unquestioned within India and the world over. There is not going > > to be > > an un-Indian leader-nation for India's Sikhs, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists > > and Christians in our neighbourhood any time soon. > > > > http://indianmuslims.in/indias-islam/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping_________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=220 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Post free auto ads on Yello Classifieds now! Try it now! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Post free auto ads on Yello Classifieds now! Try it now! Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Fly HYD-BLR for Rs.499 Log on to MakeMyTrip! Check it out! Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=220 From iram at sarai.net Wed Jan 23 21:31:59 2008 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:31:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'urbanbody' studio by Spacelab Message-ID: <479764F7.2040006@sarai.net> maybe of interest to some... ========================== Hello We are currently looking for volunteers/NGOs/Academics/Researchers/Institutions who have interest and would be willing to contribute to the two month 'urbanbody' studio organised by Spacelab research laboratory for urbanism/city from Technical University of Delft, the Netherlands with a special focus on Dharavi, mumbai. Please have a look at spacelab website for more information on the laboratory : http://www.spacelab.tudelft.nl/ While the draft focus is still being formulated with the help of contributors from UCL London and TU Delft, here are some of the aims and key themes that the studio aims to explore. This studio provides a base for the students to further explore the notion of 'emmergence' and informality within their final projects, thus urbanbody remains at one level an exercise of active observation, but on the other level it intends to provide the observations/tools and lessons learnt to the people (inhabitants/activists/NGOs/governmental bodies) who can use them to intervene and improve the quality and living conditions etc for the dwellers of Dharavi. Possible themes: Spatial Economy: the interaction of the informal and formal...'slum' and the city Idea of migration and floating population within cities Role of women in the informal economy Notion of Emmergence The studio (20 students and 4-5 associate professors/collaborators) will spend about 3 weeks in india (first 3 weeks of march) engaging in studies and visits as well as workshops with inhabitants of dharavi/activists/NGOs/Thinkers and Academics. If any of the members on the list would like to help or have any suggestions or are in contact with any NGOs or individuals who could contribute to the studio, please do write to me. We are also looking for schools of architecture in bombay to participate in the studio thus we can begin to exchange knowledge with the local students if Thank you in advance Chintan Gohil From tulunadu at hotmail.com Thu Jan 24 01:27:29 2008 From: tulunadu at hotmail.com (Krishna Chaithanya) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:27:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] what non-Muslims say about Quran, Islam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anoop Bhayya, In what way are you different from them? Look at your language, you too sound like them. Just noise KC > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 04:06:47 -0800 > From: anoopkheri at gmail.com > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] what non-Muslims say about Quran, Islam > > Dear Javed bhai > > I am quite new to this reader-list but have been silently observing the > debates. > > I dont think you need to be apologetic about you being not read Bhagawat > Gita. > > I think it will be quite interesting if you can go through what Dr. Ambedkar > wrote about Gita. > > More importantly please don't succumb to this humanitarian, liberal > postures and clamors of educated caste-hindus. It is completely hog-wash- > an invention by caste-hindus to counter colonial influences and to fight > their own inferiority complexes > > Dalits have been the first victims of this rhetorics. > > Most of the middle-class/caste-hindus are going through an interesting phase > where buoyed by their very moderate relative successes in globalised > economy they are prone to inventing history trying to erase their past. They > are also very terrorized lot as their position in Indian society is > continuously being challenged. > > So they are in search of 'enemies' to consolidate their losing base. If u > have observed they have problems with every body in this country be it > Dalit, tribals, muslims, christians .. every body. Their problems stems from > the fact that they dont want to share power, resources with anybody else in > this country and all their 'politics' is driven by this very point. > > rather than poor caste-hindu, u will find educated one to be more of such > kind > > more later. > > anoop > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=220 From pkray11 at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 03:47:06 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 03:47:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] what is to be done? Message-ID: <98f331e00801231417h43edf85asdbf79f5c67f774d8@mail.gmail.com> History is fond of her grandchildren, for it offers them the marrow of the bones, which the previous generation had hurt its hands in breaking. - Nikolai Gavrilovich Chernyshevsky Dear all, This is not a response to Aarti's post on the Digest, vol-54, issue-74 in the strictest sense of the word, just some random reflections (not reasoning, I swear). I am amazed to see that someone like her who support all kind of freedoms advocating to filter some posts. The P(o)apa of compueter revolution Bill Gates says that everyone is equal in the virtual world. But the man himself uses copyrights acts and other machanisms to prevent people from enjoying the digital revolution. What I want to say is that claiming to be in favour of reason, democracy, freedom etc. is one thing and saying that some posts donot deserve to be responded to and should be filtered is another thing, and both are exact opposite to each-other. Yes, some posts may be outrageous, illogical, irrational etc like those of Radhikarajen, Tara Prakash etc, but one should not ignore them. If one doesn't like to respond or read, it is his or her choice but the posts can be used as a source to study the particular trends or politics or points. Remember, for long, the right-wingers were ignored by the intellegentia and one fine day, they were at our door-steps (and still they are there). Anyway, it is good to see Comrade Lenin's name in the digest after so-long (though he had been mentioned meaninglessly). Aarti has provided me an opportunity to mention one of my favourite novels "What Is To Be Done" written by Nikolai Gavrilovich Chernyshevsky. The novel was published in 1863. Chernyshevsky was behind bars and was only 35 when he complited the work. Many and many revolutionaries was inspired by this novel and Chernyshevsky's thoughts and Comrade Lenin was among them. It is believed that he named his famous book after Chernyshevsky's novel which was his favourite book. Thankfully, someone thought beyond "To be or Not To Be". Let us try to see beyond binary or binaries. regards, Prakash From ravig64 at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 09:01:51 2008 From: ravig64 at gmail.com (Ravi Agarwal) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:01:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] what is to be done? In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0801212324m25c66ab3p5bf16ace5ec90864@mail.gmail.com> References: <48c2916d0801212324m25c66ab3p5bf16ace5ec90864@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Aarti Many thanks for your mail. I think that we need to talk about many other things which people like me on the reader list are interested in. I am sure the discussion about the communal nature of our nation state is a very important one, but this is as important as are other key issues confronting us today, like issues of poverty, environment, changing urban landscapes, the discussions on the arts, and impacts of new globalisations etc, from my perspective for example, and there could be many others. I feel that if one discussion becomes very dominant, then others feel cowed down and do not post. Maybe the moderator can do this, trigger of discussions other than this as well. What do you think? Or I may be wrong and then most on the reader list are only interested in one topic, in which case I rest my case, since it is based on past experience with the list and the variety of topics it held. best and good luck ravi agarwal On Jan 22, 2008, at 12:54 PM, Aarti Sethi wrote: Dear all, It is becoming more and more difficult to read the writing on the reader-list. From misogyny, the likes of which I do not recall ever seeing before, to threats of physical violence against women's bodies, to right-wing Hindu vitriol, what is going on? It is actually now painful to have to see 37 responses on a thread which deserves not even one, because people are valiantly trying to talk rationally, reason with, respond to people who should just be told to shut up. I know its very hard to keep quite and let things go, especially when we have exemplars like chanchal and vedavati on this list. But we are all just getting fatigued now with this relentless barrage of invective and hate that the list is constantly subjected to. So now I am asking for solutions. What is to be done?, as Lenin asked many years ago. What is to be done to save the reader-list? Can we have a discussion on this? Clearly responding to them in any rational fashion is not a solution. And I frankly have no interest or hope that anything any of us can say will make any difference. This is not about me refusing to have a conversation, because the fact is, they do not want to have a conversation at all. And i think that is quite clear from the writing on the list in the past two weeks. This is a request to to please stop engaging with them. Lets ignore them, lets not respond to them, lets please just mark all their mails so they go into our collective trash folders, lets talk about other things, anything. They can then keep talking to each other about the wonderful Hindu nation they will build ad nauseum. But we dont have to listen to this. And of course they will claim this as a victory etc etc. How we cant respond to them, how we have nothing to say to their brilliant argumentation. I can already predict the responses to this mail. But I have no trouble saying that they are right. I am limited by my own linguistic incapacity to respond to writing which is so poisonous. And a final qualification about my use of "us" and "them" and any questions regarding othering, insularity, assumption of moral superiority etc etc. I can unabashedly say that I have absolutely no problems creating this binary divide. I have no issues saying that these are people I want to have nothing to do with, as far as I am concerned they are unethical and violent and I dont see why they should have any purchase on my time at all. There are far more interesting things being said and there are interesting people saying them who I would much rather read, than the reams and reams of boring hateful drivel that constantly issue from the likes of chanchal.. If anyone else has any other ideas please lets hear them. And if anyone has forgotten how to make filters so you can trash the trash, here is a link to Vivek's very instructive mail on the matter: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-November/011005.html best Aarti _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From parvinderster at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 10:04:21 2008 From: parvinderster at gmail.com (Parvinder Singh) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:04:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] what is to be done? In-Reply-To: References: <48c2916d0801212324m25c66ab3p5bf16ace5ec90864@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all, Moderation, not necessarily as a means of control but as a facilitator, is surely needed for this list. In the past few months one has seen several mails and exchanges that are reflective of discussion being taken over by a single issue and mostly from a very narrowed down perspective as it gets restricted to a few protagonists. The issue is not about filtering wrong or right, but mostly about facilitation. Maybe through an announcement of a debate question for the members, which is time bound, and then moving on to another or even staying with same till such time as the members can sustain interest. This is not to say that an issue can ever get exhausted but to stress that after a stage polemics belongs to research rooms and archives and not the list serve of the kind we have been using here. Warm regards Parvinder On Jan 24, 2008 9:01 AM, Ravi Agarwal wrote: > Hi Aarti > > Many thanks for your mail. I think that we need to talk about many > other things which people like me on the reader list are interested > in. I am sure the discussion about the communal nature of our nation > state is a very important one, but this is as important as are other > key issues confronting us today, like issues of poverty, environment, > changing urban landscapes, the discussions on the arts, and impacts > of new globalisations etc, from my perspective for example, and there > could be many others. > > I feel that if one discussion becomes very dominant, then others feel > cowed down and do not post. Maybe the moderator can do this, trigger > of discussions other than this as well. What do you think? > > Or I may be wrong and then most on the reader list are only interested > in one topic, in which case I rest my case, since it is based on past > experience with the list and the variety of topics it held. > > best and good luck > ravi agarwal > > > > > On Jan 22, 2008, at 12:54 PM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > Dear all, > > It is becoming more and more difficult to read the writing on the > reader-list. From misogyny, the likes of which I do not recall ever > seeing > before, to threats of physical violence against women's bodies, to > right-wing Hindu vitriol, what is going on? It is actually now painful > to > have to see 37 responses on a thread which deserves not even one, > because > people are valiantly trying to talk rationally, reason with, respond to > people who should just be told to shut up. I know its very hard to keep > quite and let things go, especially when we have exemplars like > chanchal and > vedavati on this list. But we are all just getting fatigued now with > this > relentless barrage of invective and hate that the list is constantly > subjected to. > > So now I am asking for solutions. What is to be done?, as Lenin asked > many > years ago. What is to be done to save the reader-list? Can we have a > discussion on this? Clearly responding to them in any rational fashion > is > not a solution. And I frankly have no interest or hope that anything > any of > us can say will make any difference. This is not about me refusing to > have a > conversation, because the fact is, they do not want to have a > conversation > at all. And i think that is quite clear from the writing on the list > in the > past two weeks. > > This is a request to to please stop engaging with them. Lets ignore > them, > lets not respond to them, lets please just mark all their mails so > they go > into our collective trash folders, lets talk about other things, > anything. > They can then keep talking to each other about the wonderful Hindu > nation > they will build ad nauseum. But we dont have to listen to this. And of > course they will claim this as a victory etc etc. How we cant respond to > them, how we have nothing to say to their brilliant argumentation. I can > already predict the responses to this mail. But I have no trouble saying > that they are right. I am limited by my own linguistic incapacity to > respond > to writing which is so poisonous. > > And a final qualification about my use of "us" and "them" and any > questions > regarding othering, insularity, assumption of moral superiority etc > etc. I > can unabashedly say that I have absolutely no problems creating this > binary > divide. I have no issues saying that these are people I want to have > nothing > to do with, as far as I am concerned they are unethical and violent > and I > dont see why they should have any purchase on my time at all. There > are far > more interesting things being said and there are interesting people > saying > them who I would much rather read, than the reams and reams of boring > hateful drivel that constantly issue from the likes of chanchal.. > > If anyone else has any other ideas please lets hear them. And if > anyone has > forgotten how to make filters so you can trash the trash, here is a > link to > Vivek's very instructive mail on the matter: > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-November/011005.html > > best > Aarti > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Parvinder Singh "The moment you resolve to be victorious, every nerve and fiber in your being will immediately orient itself toward your success." Daisaku Ikeda From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Jan 24 10:12:35 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (shuddha at sarai.net) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:12:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm and a quest for hired limousines Message-ID: <4e2b33ffb939fd1323ad08a2ddab8750@sarai.net> Dear Rashneek, Dear All on the List Happy new year. (so what if it is a few weeks old !) I have watched with dismay our list degenerating from the heights it ascended to with Rashneek Kher's riposte to my annotations on the history of iconoclasm in Kashmir. The current volley of invective unleashed by Oishik, Chanchal Malviya, Radhikarajen, We Wi and Pawan Durani is sad, and I hope we can climb out of it, as we did momentarily when Arnab, Sadan, Prem Chandravarkar and others were discussing archives, personhood and other things that make this list more worthwhile. I hope I can attend to some of those fascinating questions in coming days. I also hope (in agreement with Ravi Agarwal's response to Aarti, that matters other than those that concern our resident Hindu patriots can get a hearing. It would be tragic if this list were to be monopolized by a bunch of time serving fanatics intent on the destruction of conversation with their hatred filled agenda. The arts, environment, technology, culture, contemporaneity, the making of images and words, philosophical speculation and debate, - all these are part of the mandate of this list, and need vigorous cultivation. The best way to deal with right wing lunacy is to ensure that it does not drown other voices. I appeal to everyone on this list to ensure that this does not happen. Please write, and write about a lot of other things as well. But this post takes us back to the issues raised by Rashneek Kher on iconoclasm on Christmas day last month. I read with interest your (Rashneek's) long posts in reply to my annotations on iconoclasm in Kashmir, posted almost exactly a month ago . And I appreciate the hard work that Rashneek has put in. Thank your for all the notes and references. They are useful. I do however have some issues with the contents of Rashneek's argument. i do not wish this to be a very detailed post, so I will keep my arguments as brief as possible. FIrstly, it is disingenuous on your part to say that you had not said that Hindu kings had not undertaken acts of Iconoclasm. The question of iconoclasm was raised by you in a response that you wrote to my reply to Pawan Durani about genocide by Communist rulers. In my reply, I had said that I am willing to atone for the genocidial violence that stains the record of regimes that have used the name Communist to describe themselves, and asked, whether Pawan Durani would be similarly prepared to grieve and atone for those killed in order to defend the Indian nation in Kashmir. In your reply to my willingness to atone, you invoked what you implied was another history of violence in Kashmir, where you focused, or chose to focus on instances of (solely) Muslim iconoclasm. You made it appear in your post as if iconoclasm and temple destruction and Islam had some special relationship, and you did not mention non Muslim iconoclasm and temple destruction in Kashmir. Had you wanted to be objective, you could have mentioned that non Muslim rulers also destroyed temples. You chose not to. Secondly, the implications of your argument about the relative merits of different acts of iconoclasm and temple destruction based on a reading of the motives behind them are interesting. In your conceptual and moral universe, greed, lust for wealth and power (which for you are the motives of the acts of iconoclasm of the non-muslim rulers of Kashmir) seem to be somehow preferable to the iconoclasm that derives its energy from faith and proselytization alone (which you attribute solely to the three Muslim kings you mention). The iconoclasm of non-muslim Kings, though reprehensible, is in your view, less damaging in the last instance, because it is not accompanied by a faith based fanaticism. I am not interested (and never have been) in furnishing a differential framework of justification for any act of destruction. I condemn, unequivocally, acts of violence by ruling powers, no matter which ruling power perpetuates them, and for what reason. Not because I view them through the lens committed to the hierarchical and differential ordering of their motives but because I view them in terms of their consequences. The consequences, unvaryingly, are tragic, no matter what the declared, or retrospectively unveiled 'motives' may be. It matters little to me as to whether those who witness and recount such acts condemn these motives as base (as Kalhana does) or glorify them as exalted (as some of the Muslim chroniclers you mention do, though others, like Kalhan, are prepared to call them base). What matters to me is that these instances were acts of wanton destruction, and need to be recognized as such. But let us leave the absured question of whether it is 'better' to destroy for greed or the so called greater glory of god aside for the moment. As far as the attribution of motives to acts of state terror are concerned, (and the killing of people, and the destruction of their property by forces partisan to the state are acts of state terror, no matter who orders them, or when they occur) I am less than willing to accept the motives ascribed to them (which you accept without hesitation) by court chroniclers. Let us take a contemporary example to try and understand what I mean. If we follow the debate on Nandigram, which has occurred on this list and elsewhere, we will see that several people (myself included) have no hesitation in seeing the violence that has been unleashed in West Bengal by the ruling CPI(M) as being symptomatic of the avarice, greed, lust for wealth, influence and power that has completely turned the heads of the leadership of the CPI(M) led government in that state. While on the other hand, the people I would consider to be the 'court chroniclers' and apologists of the CPI(M) have insisted that in fact the CPI(M)'s actions are actually evidence of its commitment to the pro-people development policies that it claims to uphold. Substitute a commitment to what our so called Communist Parties call 'people's democracy' with what the 'court chroniclers' of the Kashmiri Salatin's called 'Islam' and you will see exactly what I mean. Or, better still, if you read the writing on Army, BSF and CRPF bunkers in Kashmir and Srinagar, which often declare that the Indian Armed Forces are protecting the 'Freedom' or 'Azaadi' of the Kashmiri population then too you will see what I mean. Every ruling power attempts to dignify its base violence with the sanctity of an exalted purpose. In Marxism we call this exalted purpose 'Ideology'. So, when the court chroniclers of the Salatins say that the purpose of loot and the destruction of property is the advancement of Islam, I am quite willing to bet that what we see is as much 'ideology' in operation as when someone like Prabhat Patnaik exhorts the CPI(M) faithful that whatever is happening in West Bengal is happening for the benefit of the people there. In both cases, the greed and lust for power are given a suitably exalted 'cover' by intellectuals who also happen to be courtiers. Strangely, if I were to accept your logic that the actions of Muslim rulers in Kashmir can be glossed only in terms of their commitment to their faith, then we have to arrive at another paradoxical conclusion - which is as follows - that the pre-eminence of Kashmiri Pandits throughout the history of medieval Kashmir, the fact that their religion and rituals remained intact, that new temples were also built and that Sanskrit scholarship continued to exist in Kashmir, is also indicative of the strength of the piety of those Muslim rulers who ensured that all this could happen. Because, the Qur'an explicitly states ' To you your faith, and to me mine', or 'that there can be no compulsion in matters of religion'. In other words, just as (following your logic) those Muslim rulers who persecuted Pandits and destroyed temples were acting as per the injunctions of their faiths, those other Muslim rulers who did not persecute Pandits and did not destroy temples were also acting out of their 'Islamic' religious motivations. In other words the 'bad' Muslims were bad because they were Muslims, and the 'good' Muslims were good because they were Muslims. I do not see how this line of reasoning can help us to understand anything, because it is internally contradictory. I have heard and read many Muslim and Islamist ideologues argue that the historical record of Islamic rule in the pre-modern world is indicative of its higher tolerance of diversity, (which is empiricially true if we take into account the broad contours of the cultural and religious histories of the Ottoman, Abbasid, Fatimid, and Mughal empires), and that this is because, Islam itself is the 'most tolerant' and peace loving of all faiths. Now, let me make it abundantly clear that I think that this line of reasoning is absolute rubbish. It is Islamist propaganda that I do not buy at all. Islam per se is neither more nor less tolerant than other faiths. And Muslim rulers are not tolerant or intolerant because they are 'Muslims'. Muslim rulers were tolerant, or not, because it was expedient for them to be so, because tolerance, or highly selective but non discriminatory forms of intolerance were effective and pragmatic instruments of rule. Similarly, I do not think that Narendra Modi organizes pogroms, and arranges for the massacre of Muslims in Gujarat because he is a good Hindu. I think he does so because this is a means by which he can rule through terror and fear. To give his actions a 'Hindu' gloss, despite the spin and representational excess with which it is surrounded, (including by him and his courtiers) would be succumbing to the error of mistaking reality for ideology, the concreteness of the deed for the slipperiness of the word. Similarly, to say, like the court chroniclers you mention that 'temple destruction' was motivated by the cause of furthering the agenda of Islam is about as meaningless, in my opinion, as saying that the tolerance and liberality of Muslim rule existed in order to further the agenda of Islam. What you are saying, and what Islamist apologists of the principle of the so called 'just caliphate' say actually amount to the same things, though you come to them from different ends and from different purposes - namely that the acts of Muslim rulers must only be seen in terms of their provenance in the sacred tenets of Islam, while the acts of non Muslim rulers can be explained by mundane motivations. This amounts, actually to a theory of 'Muslim exceptionalism' that can be used to justify and/or describe anything and everything when it is attached to any entity that is nominally Muslim, from the Islamo-Fascism of bin Laden and Ahmedinijad to the liberality and openness of Jalaluddin Rumi, even to the playful heresies of Ma'arri and Rushdie. I prefer a more simple and simutaneously more complex explaination - which sees actions and motives rooted in everyday contexts, and especially views Kingship, statecraft and the exercise of political power of any kind as a complex intersection of different kinds of motives, mainly base and mundane, mainly to do with the accumulation of wealth and the maintenance of patterns of domination by different ruling classes in different epochs. Finally, lets turn our attention a little to the manner in which you have read your sources. I notice, that the actual substantive 'temple destroyers' that you mention are none other than the familiar Sikandar But-Shikan, whose name you drag out like a cheap magic trick, again and again. You list 49 references from Jia Lal Kilam's book, forgetting to mention that temple destruction are mentioned very few times in these references. The bulk of these citations have to do with the persecution of pandits (and others) for reasons that have to do with expediency, court politics, greed for wealth and a host of other mundane factors. The few instances were Muslim fanaticism is at play are also those that are also corrected and resisted by other Muslim claimants to power. But we hardly find any specific mentions of temple destruction. This makes it difficult to believe that the quantum of temple destruction in Muslim rule was substantially different from what might have occured earlier. Generally, the behaviour of oppressive Muslim kings is just as base, just as banal, just as reprehensible as their non-Muslim predecessors. Just to give an example, (because I do not want to bore our readers with an excess of detail, an achoholic king like Haider Shah ('given to drunken orgies' in Kilam's words) makes for as good and devout a Muslim as the pork eating Shiva worshipping crypto Muslim pioneer called Harsha - whom you are happy to claim is Muslim because Kalhana uses the word 'Turushka' for him. S You conveniently cite Abdul Qayoom Rafiqi (Sufism in Kashmir) mentioing Syed Ali Hamadani's list of injunctions agains 'Zimmis' without mentioing that the term 'Zimmis' (the protected) refer to Jews and Christians, not to Hindus. The word used for Hindus is Kafir, and Rafiqui whom you cite, actually refers to Hamadani's verses stressing the equality in God's eyes of the Momin (Muslim) and the Kafir. This actually really damages your argument, as does the fact that Rafiqui explicitly mentions the fact that the fanatical excesses of his successor, Mir Mohammad Hamadani were also resisted, and defeated by another Sufi Thank you once again for the energy with which you have attempted to marshall evidence for your arguments, I am afraid, that after a dispassionate reading of your arguments, I am forced to conclude that they make up in shrillness what they lack in coherence and cogency. Keep trying, regards Shuddha PS. As long as non Kashmiri Indian soldiers continue to occupy and harass Kashmiris in Kashmir, I am afraid you will have to deal with the likes of me, commenting on the situation in Kashmir. I do this, not because I have a particular interest in what you call the 'pain' of Kashmir. I am not Kashmiri, and have no interest in giving further purchase to Kashmir self pity, regardless of the denomination that it speaks in the name of. Rather, I am interested in understanding and resisting what a prolonged period of military occupation does to the occupying power. Let the last non Kashmiri Indian soldier leave the valley, and I too, will 'cease-fire'. Until that is done, I am afraid, the skirmish will continue. Finally, at the end of your multi part missive, you exhort Pawan Durani with the words, "Be not despaired of these,limousine liberals oh my friend Pawan Durani,poor in means,we maybe,but aren't poor in passion and zest." While it is interesting to think of people who brandish their 'blackberry fuelled' enthusiasm as being 'poor in means', I must point out that all my life I have wanted at least a brief ride in a limousine on Delhi's streets. A liberal, I am not, but I really would not mind an occasional spin in a hired limousine . Alas, I have never really enjoyed the delights of one. I did notice, that on 'Homeland Day' which was celebrated with a major bash by the Panun Kashmir organization I noticed a long line of expensive automobiles outside the Chinmaya Mission Auditorium on Lodi Road in Delhi where Panun Kashmir was pledging itself anew to its homeland. I noticed in particular the several shiny grey and black Toyota Innovas, which though not limousines, are handsome vehicles. Perhaps our Kashmiri Pandit Patriot friends were there in person too. Would any of them care to lend me, or any other anti-national automobile fanatics, a nice big car for a day? From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Jan 24 13:30:19 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:00:19 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm and a quest for hired limousines In-Reply-To: <4e2b33ffb939fd1323ad08a2ddab8750@sarai.net> References: <4e2b33ffb939fd1323ad08a2ddab8750@sarai.net> Message-ID: Shuddha, thanks for your post to bring back the "objective" look at history and archives. But being emotional in responses in the process always takes objectivity out of the debates as is the norm. As regards, histroy it must be remembered that objective look and journalising the vents of yester years is now coloured by the looks of the writer, no more objective, as different writers write the history as they view it, grasp it, like to portray it. The written histories, each of them only give partial vies from the view point of writers, so it is always better to read and grasp as many versions of archives as possible and then digest what is right and the true factual position of the vents that hae gone in to the sands of time. ! Now, this Bharatha varshas has seen many rulers, some good, some rank bad and some ugly when the rule got influenced by what the rulers percieved as good for their subjects, and in all such cases the ruler, or king always tried to impose what he/she thought was good to his/her subjects and the result is intolerence to any objects which that ruler percieved as not right for his subjects. be it a hindu king, buddhist king, muslim ruler, or of any faith, the ruler always tried to foist what he believed as right and correct for his subjects, in the process none have been tolerent to other symbols of faith, be it temples, churches or mosques. So, in the free nation, today, as we are living in supposed to be secular India, where religion has no place in good governance, the fact that every ruler today irrespective which political spectrum and colour belongs to is at it again when it is absolutely should be left to the citizrens to have their choice of worship.History gives out t he role of different kings in destruction of temples, by different rulers, but moot point is now in free India, the right is sought to be imposed by wrongs and not by tolerent negotiated correction of wrongs with mutual accommodation. That is the issue. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: shuddha at sarai.net Date: Thursday, January 24, 2008 10:15 am Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm and a quest for hired limousines To: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear Rashneek, Dear All on the List > > Happy new year. (so what if it is a few weeks old !) > > I have watched with dismay our list degenerating from the heights it > ascended to with Rashneek Kher's riposte to my annotations on the > historyof iconoclasm in Kashmir. The current volley of invective > unleashed by > Oishik, Chanchal Malviya, Radhikarajen, We Wi and Pawan Durani is > sad, and > I hope we can climb out of it, as we did momentarily when Arnab, > Sadan,Prem Chandravarkar and others were discussing archives, > personhood and > other things that make this list more worthwhile. I hope I can > attend to > some of those fascinating questions in coming days. I also hope (in > agreement with Ravi Agarwal's response to Aarti, that matters > other than > those that concern our resident Hindu patriots can get a hearing. > It would > be tragic if this list were to be monopolized by a bunch of time > servingfanatics intent on the destruction of conversation with > their hatred filled > agenda. The arts, environment, technology, culture, > contemporaneity, the > making of images and words, philosophical speculation and debate, - > all > these are part of the mandate of this list, and need vigorous > cultivation.The best way to deal with right wing lunacy is to > ensure that it does not > drown other voices. I appeal to everyone on this list to ensure > that this > does not happen. Please write, and write about a lot of other > things as > well. > > But this post takes us back to the issues raised by Rashneek Kher on > iconoclasm on Christmas day last month. > > I read with interest your (Rashneek's) long posts in reply to my > annotations on iconoclasm in Kashmir, posted almost exactly a > month ago . > And I appreciate the hard work that Rashneek has put in. Thank > your for all > the notes and references. They are useful. > > I do however have some issues with the contents of Rashneek's > argument. i > do not wish this to be a very detailed post, so I will keep my > arguments as > brief as possible. > > FIrstly, it is disingenuous on your part to say that you had not > said that > Hindu kings had not undertaken acts of Iconoclasm. The question of > iconoclasm was raised by you in a response that you wrote to my > reply to > Pawan Durani about genocide by Communist rulers. In my reply, I > had said > that I am willing to atone for the genocidial violence that stains the > record of regimes that have used the name Communist to describe > themselves,and asked, whether Pawan Durani would be similarly > prepared to grieve and > atone for those killed in order to defend the Indian nation in > Kashmir. In > your reply to my willingness to atone, you invoked what you > implied was > another history of violence in Kashmir, where you focused, or > chose to > focus on instances of (solely) Muslim iconoclasm. You made it > appear in > your post as if iconoclasm and temple destruction and Islam had some > special relationship, and you did not mention non Muslim > iconoclasm and > temple destruction in Kashmir. Had you wanted to be objective, you > couldhave mentioned that non Muslim rulers also destroyed temples. > You chose not > to. > > Secondly, the implications of your argument about the relative > merits of > different acts of iconoclasm and temple destruction based on a > reading of > the motives behind them are interesting. In your conceptual and moral > universe, greed, lust for wealth and power (which for you are the > motivesof the acts of iconoclasm of the non-muslim rulers of > Kashmir) seem to be > somehow preferable to the iconoclasm that derives its energy from > faith and > proselytization alone (which you attribute solely to the three > Muslim kings > you mention). > > The iconoclasm of non-muslim Kings, though reprehensible, is in > your view, > less damaging in the last instance, because it is not accompanied > by a > faith based fanaticism. > > I am not interested (and never have been) in furnishing a differential > framework of justification for any act of destruction. I condemn, > unequivocally, acts of violence by ruling powers, no matter which > rulingpower perpetuates them, and for what reason. Not because I > view them > through the lens committed to the hierarchical and differential > ordering of > their motives but because I view them in terms of their > consequences. The > consequences, unvaryingly, are tragic, no matter what the > declared, or > retrospectively unveiled 'motives' may be. > > It matters little to me as to whether those who witness and > recount such > acts condemn these motives as base (as Kalhana does) or glorify > them as > exalted (as some of the Muslim chroniclers you mention do, though > others,like Kalhan, are prepared to call them base). What matters > to me is that > these instances were acts of wanton destruction, and need to be > recognizedas such. > > But let us leave the absured question of whether it is 'better' to > destroyfor greed or the so called greater glory of god aside for > the moment. > > As far as the attribution of motives to acts of state terror are > concerned,(and the killing of people, and the destruction of their > property by forces > partisan to the state are acts of state terror, no matter who > orders them, > or when they occur) I am less than willing to accept the motives > ascribedto them (which you accept without hesitation) by court > chroniclers. > Let us take a contemporary example to try and understand what I > mean. If we > follow the debate on Nandigram, which has occurred on this list and > elsewhere, we will see that several people (myself included) have no > hesitation in seeing the violence that has been unleashed in West > Bengal by > the ruling CPI(M) as being symptomatic of the avarice, greed, lust for > wealth, influence and power that has completely turned the heads > of the > leadership of the CPI(M) led government in that state. While on > the other > hand, the people I would consider to be the 'court chroniclers' and > apologists of the CPI(M) have insisted that in fact the CPI(M)'s > actionsare actually evidence of its commitment to the pro-people > developmentpolicies that it claims to uphold. Substitute a > commitment to what our so > called Communist Parties call 'people's democracy' with what the > 'courtchroniclers' of the Kashmiri Salatin's called 'Islam' and > you will see > exactly what I mean. Or, better still, if you read the writing on > Army, BSF > and CRPF bunkers in Kashmir and Srinagar, which often declare that the > Indian Armed Forces are protecting the 'Freedom' or 'Azaadi' of the > Kashmiri population then too you will see what I mean. > > Every ruling power attempts to dignify its base violence with the > sanctityof an exalted purpose. In Marxism we call this exalted > purpose 'Ideology'. > So, when the court chroniclers of the Salatins say that the > purpose of loot > and the destruction of property is the advancement of Islam, I am > quitewilling to bet that what we see is as much 'ideology' in > operation as when > someone like Prabhat Patnaik exhorts the CPI(M) faithful that > whatever is > happening in West Bengal is happening for the benefit of the > people there. > In both cases, the greed and lust for power are given a suitably > exalted'cover' by intellectuals who also happen to be courtiers. > > Strangely, if I were to accept your logic that the actions of > Muslim rulers > in Kashmir can be glossed only in terms of their commitment to > their faith, > then we have to arrive at another paradoxical conclusion - which > is as > follows - that the pre-eminence of Kashmiri Pandits throughout the > historyof medieval Kashmir, the fact that their religion and > rituals remained > intact, that new temples were also built and that Sanskrit scholarship > continued to exist in Kashmir, is also indicative of the strength > of the > piety of those Muslim rulers who ensured that all this could happen. > Because, the Qur'an explicitly states ' To you your faith, and to > me mine', > or 'that there can be no compulsion in matters of religion'. In other > words, just as (following your logic) those Muslim rulers who > persecutedPandits and destroyed temples were acting as per the > injunctions of their > faiths, those other Muslim rulers who did not persecute Pandits > and did not > destroy temples were also acting out of their 'Islamic' religious > motivations. In other words the 'bad' Muslims were bad because > they were > Muslims, and the 'good' Muslims were good because they were > Muslims. I do > not see how this line of reasoning can help us to understand anything, > because it is internally contradictory. > > I have heard and read many Muslim and Islamist ideologues argue > that the > historical record of Islamic rule in the pre-modern world is > indicative of > its higher tolerance of diversity, (which is empiricially true if > we take > into account the broad contours of the cultural and religious > histories of > the Ottoman, Abbasid, Fatimid, and Mughal empires), and that this is > because, Islam itself is the 'most tolerant' and peace loving of > all faiths. > > Now, let me make it abundantly clear that I think that this line of > reasoning is absolute rubbish. It is Islamist propaganda that I do > not buy > at all. Islam per se is neither more nor less tolerant than other > faiths.And Muslim rulers are not tolerant or intolerant because > they are 'Muslims'. > > Muslim rulers were tolerant, or not, because it was expedient for > them to > be so, because tolerance, or highly selective but non > discriminatory forms > of intolerance were effective and pragmatic instruments of rule. > Similarly,I do not think that Narendra Modi organizes pogroms, and > arranges for the > massacre of Muslims in Gujarat because he is a good Hindu. I think > he does > so because this is a means by which he can rule through terror and > fear. To > give his actions a 'Hindu' gloss, despite the spin and > representationalexcess with which it is surrounded, (including by > him and his courtiers) > would be succumbing to the error of mistaking reality for > ideology, the > concreteness of the deed for the slipperiness of the word. > > Similarly, to say, like the court chroniclers you mention that 'temple > destruction' was motivated by the cause of furthering the agenda > of Islam > is about as meaningless, in my opinion, as saying that the > tolerance and > liberality of Muslim rule existed in order to further the agenda > of Islam. > What you are saying, and what Islamist apologists of the principle > of the > so called 'just caliphate' say actually amount to the same things, > thoughyou come to them from different ends and from different > purposes - namely > that the acts of Muslim rulers must only be seen in terms of their > provenance in the sacred tenets of Islam, while the acts of non > Muslimrulers can be explained by mundane motivations. This > amounts, actually to a > theory of 'Muslim exceptionalism' that can be used to justify and/or > describe anything and everything when it is attached to any entity > that is > nominally Muslim, from the Islamo-Fascism of bin Laden and > Ahmedinijad to > the liberality and openness of Jalaluddin Rumi, even to the playful > heresies of Ma'arri and Rushdie. > > I prefer a more simple and simutaneously more complex explaination > - which > sees actions and motives rooted in everyday contexts, and > especially views > Kingship, statecraft and the exercise of political power of any > kind as a > complex intersection of different kinds of motives, mainly base and > mundane, mainly to do with the accumulation of wealth and the > maintenanceof patterns of domination by different ruling classes > in different epochs. > > Finally, lets turn our attention a little to the manner in which > you have > read your sources. I notice, that the actual substantive 'temple > destroyers' that you mention are none other than the familiar Sikandar > But-Shikan, whose name you drag out like a cheap magic trick, > again and > again. > > You list 49 references from Jia Lal Kilam's book, forgetting to > mentionthat temple destruction are mentioned very few times in > these references. > The bulk of these citations have to do with the persecution of > pandits (and > others) for reasons that have to do with expediency, court > politics, greed > for wealth and a host of other mundane factors. The few instances were > Muslim fanaticism is at play are also those that are also > corrected and > resisted by other Muslim claimants to power. But we hardly find > any > specific mentions of temple destruction. This makes it difficult > to believe > that the quantum of temple destruction in Muslim rule was > substantiallydifferent from what might have occured earlier. > > Generally, the behaviour of oppressive Muslim kings is just as > base, just > as banal, just as reprehensible as their non-Muslim predecessors. > Just to > give an example, (because I do not want to bore our readers with > an excess > of detail, an achoholic king like Haider Shah ('given to drunken > orgies' in > Kilam's words) makes for as good and devout a Muslim as the pork > eatingShiva worshipping crypto Muslim pioneer called Harsha - whom > you are happy > to claim is Muslim because Kalhana uses the word 'Turushka' for > him. S > > You conveniently cite Abdul Qayoom Rafiqi (Sufism in Kashmir) > mentioingSyed Ali Hamadani's list of injunctions agains 'Zimmis' > without mentioing > that the term 'Zimmis' (the protected) refer to Jews and > Christians, not to > Hindus. The word used for Hindus is Kafir, and Rafiqui whom you cite, > actually refers to Hamadani's verses stressing the equality in > God's eyes > of the Momin (Muslim) and the Kafir. This actually really damages your > argument, as does the fact that Rafiqui explicitly mentions the > fact that > the fanatical excesses of his successor, Mir Mohammad Hamadani > were also > resisted, and defeated by another Sufi > > Thank you once again for the energy with which you have attempted to > marshall evidence for your arguments, I am afraid, that after a > dispassionate reading of your arguments, I am forced to conclude > that they > make up in shrillness what they lack in coherence and cogency. > > Keep trying, > > regards > > Shuddha > > PS. As long as non Kashmiri Indian soldiers continue to occupy and > harassKashmiris in Kashmir, I am afraid you will have to deal with > the likes of > me, commenting on the situation in Kashmir. I do this, not because > I have a > particular interest in what you call the 'pain' of Kashmir. I am not > Kashmiri, and have no interest in giving further purchase to > Kashmir self > pity, regardless of the denomination that it speaks in the name > of. Rather, > I am interested in understanding and resisting what a prolonged > period of > military occupation does to the occupying power. Let the last non > KashmiriIndian soldier leave the valley, and I too, will 'cease- > fire'. Until that > is done, I am afraid, the skirmish will continue. > > Finally, at the end of your multi part missive, you exhort Pawan > Duraniwith the words, "Be not despaired of these,limousine > liberals oh my friend > Pawan Durani,poor in means,we maybe,but aren't poor in passion and > zest." > While it is interesting to think of people who brandish their > 'blackberryfuelled' enthusiasm as being 'poor in means', I must > point out that all my > life I have wanted at least a brief ride in a limousine on Delhi's > streets.A liberal, I am not, but I really would not mind an > occasional spin in a > hired limousine . Alas, I have never really enjoyed the delights > of one. I > did notice, that on 'Homeland Day' which was celebrated with a > major bash > by the Panun Kashmir organization I noticed a long line of expensive > automobiles outside the Chinmaya Mission Auditorium on Lodi Road > in Delhi > where Panun Kashmir was pledging itself anew to its homeland. I > noticed in > particular the several shiny grey and black Toyota Innovas, which > thoughnot limousines, are handsome vehicles. Perhaps our Kashmiri > Pandit Patriot > friends were there in person too. Would any of them care to lend > me, or any > other anti-national automobile fanatics, a nice big car for a day? > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Jan 24 13:31:55 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:01:55 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] what is to be done? In-Reply-To: References: <48c2916d0801212324m25c66ab3p5bf16ace5ec90864@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, GOOD THOUGHTS INDEED. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Parvinder Singh Date: Thursday, January 24, 2008 10:07 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] what is to be done? To: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear all, > > Moderation, not necessarily as a means of control but as a > facilitator, is > surely needed for this list. In the past few months one has seen > severalmails and exchanges that are reflective of discussion being > taken over by a > single issue and mostly from a very narrowed down perspective as > it gets > restricted to a few protagonists. > > The issue is not about filtering wrong or right, but mostly about > facilitation. > > Maybe through an announcement of a debate question for the > members, which is > time bound, and then moving on to another or even staying with > same till > such time as the members can sustain interest. > > This is not to say that an issue can ever get exhausted but to > stress that > after a stage polemics belongs to research rooms and archives and > not the > list serve of the kind we have been using here. > > Warm regards > Parvinder > > On Jan 24, 2008 9:01 AM, Ravi Agarwal wrote: > > > Hi Aarti > > > > Many thanks for your mail. I think that we need to talk about many > > other things which people like me on the reader list are interested > > in. I am sure the discussion about the communal nature of our nation > > state is a very important one, but this is as important as are other > > key issues confronting us today, like issues of poverty, > environment,> changing urban landscapes, the discussions on the > arts, and impacts > > of new globalisations etc, from my perspective for example, and > there> could be many others. > > > > I feel that if one discussion becomes very dominant, then others > feel> cowed down and do not post. Maybe the moderator can do this, > trigger> of discussions other than this as well. What do you think? > > > > Or I may be wrong and then most on the reader list are only > interested> in one topic, in which case I rest my case, since it > is based on past > > experience with the list and the variety of topics it held. > > > > best and good luck > > ravi agarwal > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 22, 2008, at 12:54 PM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > > > Dear all, > > > > It is becoming more and more difficult to read the writing on the > > reader-list. From misogyny, the likes of which I do not recall ever > > seeing > > before, to threats of physical violence against women's bodies, to > > right-wing Hindu vitriol, what is going on? It is actually now > painful> to > > have to see 37 responses on a thread which deserves not even one, > > because > > people are valiantly trying to talk rationally, reason with, > respond to > > people who should just be told to shut up. I know its very hard > to keep > > quite and let things go, especially when we have exemplars like > > chanchal and > > vedavati on this list. But we are all just getting fatigued now with > > this > > relentless barrage of invective and hate that the list is constantly > > subjected to. > > > > So now I am asking for solutions. What is to be done?, as Lenin > asked> many > > years ago. What is to be done to save the reader-list? Can we > have a > > discussion on this? Clearly responding to them in any rational > fashion> is > > not a solution. And I frankly have no interest or hope that anything > > any of > > us can say will make any difference. This is not about me > refusing to > > have a > > conversation, because the fact is, they do not want to have a > > conversation > > at all. And i think that is quite clear from the writing on the list > > in the > > past two weeks. > > > > This is a request to to please stop engaging with them. Lets ignore > > them, > > lets not respond to them, lets please just mark all their mails so > > they go > > into our collective trash folders, lets talk about other things, > > anything. > > They can then keep talking to each other about the wonderful Hindu > > nation > > they will build ad nauseum. But we dont have to listen to this. > And of > > course they will claim this as a victory etc etc. How we cant > respond to > > them, how we have nothing to say to their brilliant > argumentation. I can > > already predict the responses to this mail. But I have no > trouble saying > > that they are right. I am limited by my own linguistic > incapacity to > > respond > > to writing which is so poisonous. > > > > And a final qualification about my use of "us" and "them" and any > > questions > > regarding othering, insularity, assumption of moral superiority etc > > etc. I > > can unabashedly say that I have absolutely no problems creating this > > binary > > divide. I have no issues saying that these are people I want to have > > nothing > > to do with, as far as I am concerned they are unethical and violent > > and I > > dont see why they should have any purchase on my time at all. There > > are far > > more interesting things being said and there are interesting people > > saying > > them who I would much rather read, than the reams and reams of > boring> hateful drivel that constantly issue from the likes of > chanchal..> > > If anyone else has any other ideas please lets hear them. And if > > anyone has > > forgotten how to make filters so you can trash the trash, here > is a > > link to > > Vivek's very instructive mail on the matter: > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007- > November/011005.html> > > best > > Aarti > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > -- > Parvinder Singh > "The moment you resolve to be victorious, every nerve and fiber in > yourbeing will immediately orient itself toward your success." > > Daisaku Ikeda > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 13:38:18 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:08:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] what is to be done? In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0801212324m25c66ab3p5bf16ace5ec90864@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <183371.91523.qm@web45513.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Aarti, Why do you feel something wrong with only chanchal and Vedavati now what about those vulgar language raised by Oishik Sarkar(so called women activist). What about Shuddabrata Sengupta mail on Netaji the Indian National hero most reputed by every Indian either India or in Abroad? What about Partha Dasgupta mails on Sex education,etc., There so much sex,vulgarity and abusive talk going on the list. About religion,Nation,Territory and Particular Caste and Brahmin's? Except using their brain for the sake of the so called society or whatever, they are unable to do anything either past,present or in future. Why none of the members on the list either talked or condemned at least. Don't you see or find anything in those writings? Are they appear funny? What is painful Aarti? If you really wish to do something I will assign you a real time TASK. let me explain you the problem and the solution as well. While traveling to a place recently I found that huge Bannion,Neem trees on either side of the road were axed due to road expansion plans. I don't know whether the contractor thought about this, the engineers along with the government thought about this. (I am not questioning why did they approved such a worst plan? ) Instead of Axing the age old trees(surely the contractor or government will not plant new ones on either side of the road) why don't the R&B and the corresponding ministry ask the CONTRACTOR to Construct the road 500 yards away or whatever applicable from those trees. Instead of removing the entire huge tree(50 year old to 200 year old as per my approximation) they can remove few branches, if they are still coming across the way. I will not explain what a Neem and Bannion tree give if they exist on road side or wherever because you know they will absorb the Carbon Dioxide and release oxygen. For all other uses I request for a search. The place is National Highway, Ahmednagar Area Maharashtra . Already so many trees removed under expansion and the work still going on. Now I told you the problem and gave the solution as well. This solution is very much applicable and can be very much implementable. If either you or the top level people on the list as you mentioned some time back(people and their designations) or anybody are able to do something(towards the solution i proposed or any other better solution other than that ) then it would be grateful to the environment, and society. I wish you all the best and great success in this assignment to you, Once you succeed in this don't forget to update me. Bes-test, Dhatri. Aarti Sethi wrote: Dear all, It is becoming more and more difficult to read the writing on the reader-list. From misogyny, the likes of which I do not recall ever seeing before, to threats of physical violence against women's bodies, to right-wing Hindu vitriol, what is going on? It is actually now painful to have to see 37 responses on a thread which deserves not even one, because people are valiantly trying to talk rationally, reason with, respond to people who should just be told to shut up. I know its very hard to keep quite and let things go, especially when we have exemplars like chanchal and vedavati on this list. But we are all just getting fatigued now with this relentless barrage of invective and hate that the list is constantly subjected to. So now I am asking for solutions. What is to be done?, as Lenin asked many years ago. What is to be done to save the reader-list? Can we have a discussion on this? Clearly responding to them in any rational fashion is not a solution. And I frankly have no interest or hope that anything any of us can say will make any difference. This is not about me refusing to have a conversation, because the fact is, they do not want to have a conversation at all. And i think that is quite clear from the writing on the list in the past two weeks. This is a request to to please stop engaging with them. Lets ignore them, lets not respond to them, lets please just mark all their mails so they go into our collective trash folders, lets talk about other things, anything. They can then keep talking to each other about the wonderful Hindu nation they will build ad nauseum. But we dont have to listen to this. And of course they will claim this as a victory etc etc. How we cant respond to them, how we have nothing to say to their brilliant argumentation. I can already predict the responses to this mail. But I have no trouble saying that they are right. I am limited by my own linguistic incapacity to respond to writing which is so poisonous. And a final qualification about my use of "us" and "them" and any questions regarding othering, insularity, assumption of moral superiority etc etc. I can unabashedly say that I have absolutely no problems creating this binary divide. I have no issues saying that these are people I want to have nothing to do with, as far as I am concerned they are unethical and violent and I dont see why they should have any purchase on my time at all. There are far more interesting things being said and there are interesting people saying them who I would much rather read, than the reams and reams of boring hateful drivel that constantly issue from the likes of chanchal.. If anyone else has any other ideas please lets hear them. And if anyone has forgotten how to make filters so you can trash the trash, here is a link to Vivek's very instructive mail on the matter: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-November/011005.html best Aarti _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. From matters.art at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 10:39:30 2008 From: matters.art at gmail.com (mattersofart.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 05:09:30 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_MOA=92s_Januar?= =?windows-1252?q?y_20th=2C_2008_upload_can_be_viewed_online_now!?= Message-ID: <9bbea5780801212109i363f310dsf4b5b590abb0d6e4@mail.gmail.com> Dear Friends, * - Lead Story: Sarmistha Maiti* in conversation with* Bertrand Cheuvreux *of Espace Cultural Ample, Barcelona during his recent visit to Kolkata.* - Special Interview: Baiju Parthan - Infocus: Manohar Chiluveru - Partha Cahtterjee *meets* Tim Hall, *a British photographer exhibiting in New Delhi* - Jitish Kallat's essay *on* Citing the City, *recent works by eminent Mumbai-based* Sudhir Patwardhan. - Photofeature: *Artist *George Martin *visits *Rajan Krishnan'*s studio in Kochi* - Anshuman Dasgupta *talks about* Murali Cheeroth's *exhibition Mise-En-Scene in his catalogue essay. - Plus more exhibition reviews, features and news… Log on to *www.mattersofart.com* for the latest news in Indian contemporary art . -- Anoop Kamath Editor-in-Chief www.mattersofart.com Mobile: 98111 68775 -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Jan 24 14:02:13 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:32:13 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] what is to be done? In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0801212324m25c66ab3p5bf16ace5ec90864@mail.gmail.com> References: <48c2916d0801212324m25c66ab3p5bf16ace5ec90864@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Aarti, perhaps inspired by Buddhadev Bhattacharya with his expression our "our people" paid back in the same coin "their people ?" It is not so easy in freedom of expression when it is a right, it becomes wrong only when the expression becomes a license to impinge on others rights of expression Let us remember one issue clearly, no right is absolute, no freedom is absolute in civil society as societal rights are always supreme, common good rules over individual right in a just and equitable society. Now let me take you anothet thought that crops in my mind, the media is always respected in any democracy, so is the judiciary in democratic life. Why ? The primary reason is these two "pillars" are the watch dogs in democratic nation to safeguard the rights of individuals and the society in the life of the nation. But does it give license to the individual in media to behave the way he /she wants to behave in ridiculing the individuals, or be partisan in their "expert" views ? Or the judiciary and its respect will be retained by society when they see that judges are also more corrupt than a peon/clerk in a larger scale than these in society ? Anchors of visual media by being partisan, by being spokes persons of the red brigade or sycophants and the looters of bofors and scams, do they qualify to be regarded as part of media ? Can we call them as journalists at all ? Some "expert pollsters when they come on visual media from CSDS or any reputed institution are seen as a re being partisan, do we have left any credibilty for such persons and the institutions ? Let us have debate and discussions and let us be objective, fine but JNU which is fertile ground for breeding of "Idealogists" and idealogy which does not reflect the national ethos is atmost reserved for seminars and image boosting works, as poor remain as they are with bad or lack of governance, these idealogists will control politburos to hold the nation to ransom with combined votes of hardly 9.5 percent of votes, is it good for democracy ?. ----- Original Message ----- From: Aarti Sethi Date: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:23 pm Subject: [Reader-list] what is to be done? To: sarai list > Dear all, > > It is becoming more and more difficult to read the writing on the > reader-list. From misogyny, the likes of which I do not recall > ever seeing > before, to threats of physical violence against women's bodies, to > right-wing Hindu vitriol, what is going on? It is actually now > painful to > have to see 37 responses on a thread which deserves not even one, > becausepeople are valiantly trying to talk rationally, reason > with, respond to > people who should just be told to shut up. I know its very hard to > keepquite and let things go, especially when we have exemplars > like chanchal and > vedavati on this list. But we are all just getting fatigued now > with this > relentless barrage of invective and hate that the list is constantly > subjected to. > > So now I am asking for solutions. What is to be done?, as Lenin > asked many > years ago. What is to be done to save the reader-list? Can we have a > discussion on this? Clearly responding to them in any rational > fashion is > not a solution. And I frankly have no interest or hope that > anything any of > us can say will make any difference. This is not about me refusing > to have a > conversation, because the fact is, they do not want to have a > conversationat all. And i think that is quite clear from the > writing on the list in the > past two weeks. > > This is a request to to please stop engaging with them. Lets > ignore them, > lets not respond to them, lets please just mark all their mails so > they go > into our collective trash folders, lets talk about other things, > anything.They can then keep talking to each other about the > wonderful Hindu nation > they will build ad nauseum. But we dont have to listen to this. > And of > course they will claim this as a victory etc etc. How we cant > respond to > them, how we have nothing to say to their brilliant argumentation. > I can > already predict the responses to this mail. But I have no trouble > sayingthat they are right. I am limited by my own linguistic > incapacity to respond > to writing which is so poisonous. > > And a final qualification about my use of "us" and "them" and any > questionsregarding othering, insularity, assumption of moral > superiority etc etc. I > can unabashedly say that I have absolutely no problems creating > this binary > divide. I have no issues saying that these are people I want to > have nothing > to do with, as far as I am concerned they are unethical and > violent and I > dont see why they should have any purchase on my time at all. > There are far > more interesting things being said and there are interesting > people saying > them who I would much rather read, than the reams and reams of boring > hateful drivel that constantly issue from the likes of chanchal.. > > If anyone else has any other ideas please lets hear them. And if > anyone has > forgotten how to make filters so you can trash the trash, here is > a link to > Vivek's very instructive mail on the matter: > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-November/011005.html > > best > Aarti > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From logos.theword at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 21:02:31 2008 From: logos.theword at gmail.com (Logos Theatre) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:02:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] The Nonsense World of Sukumar Ray Message-ID: <33bc2ee60801210732g3456805ay3eb58efe7e2aee5f@mail.gmail.com> Easy Library and the SpeechMagic initiative of Logos Theatre , are presenting 'The Nonsense World of Sukumar Ray', a performance for children and adults based on the brilliant absurd poems and sketches of Sukumar Ray. This performance is based on 'Abol Tabol: The Nonsense World of Sukumar Ray', the English translation of Ray's masterpiece Abol Tabol by Sampurna Chattarjee, published by Penguin India. This performance by Arka Mukhopadhyay will focus on bringing alive the wonderful and magical world of Ray through dramatically charged renditions. *About Sukumar Ray: * Born in an illustrious literary family (his father was Upendrakishore Roy Chowdhuri, a great children's writer and one of the pioneers of printing technology in India; and his son, the great Satyajit Ray), Sukumar Ray left behind an astonishing corpus of writing for children in his brief span of thirty six years. His sheer genius for absurd verse can hold its own against the best creations of the genre of literary nonsense, and his bevy of wonderful characters - kaathburo, kumropotash, bombagorer raaja, paagla dashu, etc., are comparable to the characters of Alice In Wonderland for their richness and imaginative detail. The performance, which is being presented as a part of Easy Library's read-on series, is on Sunday, January 27th from 11AM - 12PM, at the library premises on 972 H, 1st A Main, ST Bed Lyt, 4th Block, Koramangala, Bangalore. Contact Easy Library on 41102231 or 25501499 to register for the event. -- Logos Theatre In the beginning was the word No. 126, 3rd Main Road, Jayamahal Extension, Bangalore 560046 -------------------------------------------------------- If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all. Since no man has aught of what he leaves, what is 't to leave betimes? Let be. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From nicheant at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jan 24 14:38:20 2008 From: nicheant at yahoo.co.uk (Nishant) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:08:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] what is to be done? Message-ID: <657049.56237.qm@web27913.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Aarti, I have another suggestion. Perhaps, it will be a good idea to delay the delivery of the messages from the people you have mentioned. A utility can be developed for the software that releases the messages on this list which can allow the moderator to delay the delivery of messages from specified email IDs for a specified period. To begin with the period can be one month. After that the messages are released only to people who have taken the initiative to mark the specified email IDs acceptable. To the rest of the members of this list the messages can be released after two months. If people want to respond to such messages they can get in the cycle of one or two months and carry on with their debates. The other members can chip in with the topics of their interest in the mean time. Nishant. ----- Original Message ---- From: Ravi Agarwal To: Aarti Sethi Cc: sarai list Sent: Thursday, 24 January, 2008 9:01:51 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] what is to be done? Hi Aarti Many thanks for your mail. I think that we need to talk about many other things which people like me on the reader list are interested in. I am sure the discussion about the communal nature of our nation state is a very important one, but this is as important as are other key issues confronting us today, like issues of poverty, environment, changing urban landscapes, the discussions on the arts, and impacts of new globalisations etc, from my perspective for example, and there could be many others. I feel that if one discussion becomes very dominant, then others feel cowed down and do not post. Maybe the moderator can do this, trigger of discussions other than this as well. What do you think? Or I may be wrong and then most on the reader list are only interested in one topic, in which case I rest my case, since it is based on past experience with the list and the variety of topics it held. best and good luck ravi agarwal On Jan 22, 2008, at 12:54 PM, Aarti Sethi wrote: Dear all, It is becoming more and more difficult to read the writing on the reader-list. From misogyny, the likes of which I do not recall ever seeing before, to threats of physical violence against women's bodies, to right-wing Hindu vitriol, what is going on? It is actually now painful to have to see 37 responses on a thread which deserves not even one, because people are valiantly trying to talk rationally, reason with, respond to people who should just be told to shut up. I know its very hard to keep quite and let things go, especially when we have exemplars like chanchal and vedavati on this list. But we are all just getting fatigued now with this relentless barrage of invective and hate that the list is constantly subjected to. So now I am asking for solutions. What is to be done?, as Lenin asked many years ago. What is to be done to save the reader-list? Can we have a discussion on this? Clearly responding to them in any rational fashion is not a solution. And I frankly have no interest or hope that anything any of us can say will make any difference. This is not about me refusing to have a conversation, because the fact is, they do not want to have a conversation at all. And i think that is quite clear from the writing on the list in the past two weeks. This is a request to to please stop engaging with them. Lets ignore them, lets not respond to them, lets please just mark all their mails so they go into our collective trash folders, lets talk about other things, anything. They can then keep talking to each other about the wonderful Hindu nation they will build ad nauseum. But we dont have to listen to this. And of course they will claim this as a victory etc etc. How we cant respond to them, how we have nothing to say to their brilliant argumentation. I can already predict the responses to this mail. But I have no trouble saying that they are right. I am limited by my own linguistic incapacity to respond to writing which is so poisonous. And a final qualification about my use of "us" and "them" and any questions regarding othering, insularity, assumption of moral superiority etc etc. I can unabashedly say that I have absolutely no problems creating this binary divide. I have no issues saying that these are people I want to have nothing to do with, as far as I am concerned they are unethical and violent and I dont see why they should have any purchase on my time at all. There are far more interesting things being said and there are interesting people saying them who I would much rather read, than the reams and reams of boring hateful drivel that constantly issue from the likes of chanchal.. If anyone else has any other ideas please lets hear them. And if anyone has forgotten how to make filters so you can trash the trash, here is a link to Vivek's very instructive mail on the matter: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-November/011005.html best Aarti _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> __________________________________________________________ Sent from Yahoo! Mail - a smarter inbox http://uk.mail.yahoo.com From itsnishant at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 15:46:29 2008 From: itsnishant at gmail.com (Nishant Shah) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:46:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] what is to be done? In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0801212324m25c66ab3p5bf16ace5ec90864@mail.gmail.com> References: <48c2916d0801212324m25c66ab3p5bf16ace5ec90864@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Arti, All, I have been a silent lurker in these days of virulent invective and hate-speech that have unfolded on the reader-list. I haven't been silent because I had nothing to say, or that I was not provoked. I haven't been silent because I did not feel equally angered, sometimes to such an extent that I had to walk away from the computer and swear for the nth time that I will just unsubscribe from the reader's list. I have been silent because I do not think I have the vocabulary to counter arguments that are based on nothing more than personal prejudices, or the resources to deal with emails that read a little more than poison pen. However, there is also another reason why I prefer to be silent, as missiles are hurled from one end to the other, one camp offering peace flags and reasons, the other camp packaging the same in mails that resemble hand made grenades used in violent spaces. Out of long habit of dwelling on various digital forms, I have realised that the behaviour (read as writing) of some of the members who have come to haunt this particular digital platform, can only be classified as 'Troll'. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll). And as the classic motto goes, 'Do Not Feed The Troll.' There have been many discussions on the reader-list about questions of censorship, moderation, facilitation and so on. Each time a particularly venomous bunch of people descend upon the reader-list, probably abusing their office time and professional resources to spew horror on to the unwary people, we talk about the possibilities of lags, of delays, of moderation and of down-right banning. However, all these, as we have have often observed, will lead to nowhere. Death, assassination and banning on the interwebz is unfortunately, only notional, symbolic. There are no finalities to either of them and the banning or the moderation of one ID would only lead to the Trolls spinning of many more IDs which would then come back for their pound and a half of flesh. Hence, IMHO, the best thing to do is to stop FEEDING the TROLLS. I second your request that there are so many other more fruitful ways of engaging with so many different topics, that it is almost criminal (in the non-legal sense of the word) to waste time and resources in trying to convince the digital equivalent of a black box with six pre-fed scripts and no semblance of intelligence - artificial or otherwise. We might, next, as well start arguing with characters in a novel, parts in a movie, components of a website. Instead, it is best to just move on. Having said that, I also realise that it is sometimes difficult to move on. More often than not, Trolls specialise in putting their finger on the exact right spot that triggers our buttons and induce instantaneous combustion. And hence, there will always be people replying to these Flames that come our way; unfortunately thinking all the time that they are doing fire-fighting, when actually they are just adding fuel to the Troll Fire. One technical measure that I can think of - and this takes away the unenviable job of a list moderator - is to implement a tagging system in place for all mails that come to the reader list. This at least, allows people to tag their mails - sometimes the titles are misleading and provide no warning for what is to come - so that when a mail arrives, the readers can see the tags and decide for themselves whether they want to read the mail or not. The second suggestion I have might be more open for discussion - Most user based free spaces of interaction in the cyberspace have developed a policy of reactive resistance to what they look upon as an abuse of the space or its resources. Under such a policy, you do not ban users from saying what they want to say, in whichever way they want to say it, but instead allow other users to 'Report Abuse' against a particular user. The Terms of what constitutes Abuse can often be generic but also be very specific in nature and can have a large consultation from the people who have any stake in it. Reporting Abuse eventually needs some sort of a moderator who either resolves the problem or simply marks the charged person as guilty of abuse. Many times, the reason for this marking is also made public. This ensures that some IDs which are seen as destructive or Trollish, can appear differently in the conversations, flagged as potentially abusive in nature. This also helps in new readers or readers who have more invested in the questions, to stay away from the responses that these IDs might be generating. I hope both these suggestions sound feasible. I would be available for further communication or planning out of the architectural integration of such sort to the Reader's List. I am glad for your intervention and pleased to see that instead of wasting time in responding to the Trolls, we are now looking upon them as symptomatic to a certain kind of problem that emerges in 'free speech and free space' and trying to constructively deal with them. Un-lurking after a long time, Nishant On Jan 22, 2008 12:54 PM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > Dear all, > > It is becoming more and more difficult to read the writing on the > reader-list. From misogyny, the likes of which I do not recall ever seeing > before, to threats of physical violence against women's bodies, to > right-wing Hindu vitriol, what is going on? It is actually now painful to > have to see 37 responses on a thread which deserves not even one, because > people are valiantly trying to talk rationally, reason with, respond to > people who should just be told to shut up. I know its very hard to keep > quite and let things go, especially when we have exemplars like chanchal > and > vedavati on this list. But we are all just getting fatigued now with this > relentless barrage of invective and hate that the list is constantly > subjected to. > > So now I am asking for solutions. What is to be done?, as Lenin asked many > years ago. What is to be done to save the reader-list? Can we have a > discussion on this? Clearly responding to them in any rational fashion is > not a solution. And I frankly have no interest or hope that anything any > of > us can say will make any difference. This is not about me refusing to have > a > conversation, because the fact is, they do not want to have a conversation > at all. And i think that is quite clear from the writing on the list in > the > past two weeks. > > This is a request to to please stop engaging with them. Lets ignore them, > lets not respond to them, lets please just mark all their mails so they go > into our collective trash folders, lets talk about other things, anything. > They can then keep talking to each other about the wonderful Hindu nation > they will build ad nauseum. But we dont have to listen to this. And of > course they will claim this as a victory etc etc. How we cant respond to > them, how we have nothing to say to their brilliant argumentation. I can > already predict the responses to this mail. But I have no trouble saying > that they are right. I am limited by my own linguistic incapacity to > respond > to writing which is so poisonous. > > And a final qualification about my use of "us" and "them" and any > questions > regarding othering, insularity, assumption of moral superiority etc etc. I > can unabashedly say that I have absolutely no problems creating this > binary > divide. I have no issues saying that these are people I want to have > nothing > to do with, as far as I am concerned they are unethical and violent and I > dont see why they should have any purchase on my time at all. There are > far > more interesting things being said and there are interesting people saying > them who I would much rather read, than the reams and reams of boring > hateful drivel that constantly issue from the likes of chanchal.. > > If anyone else has any other ideas please lets hear them. And if anyone > has > forgotten how to make filters so you can trash the trash, here is a link > to > Vivek's very instructive mail on the matter: > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-November/011005.html > > best > Aarti > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Nishant Shah Ph.D. Student, CSCS, Bangalore. Project Manager, COMAT, Bangalore. # 0-9740074884 From tapasrayx at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 16:31:13 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 06:01:13 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] what is to be done? In-Reply-To: References: <48c2916d0801212324m25c66ab3p5bf16ace5ec90864@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47986FF9.1030807@gmail.com> I agree with Aarti and Nishant. I have been using filters quite effectively against these individuals, whose crudity entertained me initially in a perverse sort of way, but became tiresome after a while. There is no need for anyone to engage with them, since it is now clear that their objective is not to take part in rational debate but to destroy this space by swamping it with hate speech. (The reason, I think, is that they know they lack the ability to engage in reasoned debate, and cannot hope to "win" it.) Mail filters are effective and can be put in place by anyone in a few minutes. Nishant's suggestion about tagging and reporting abuse is also good, but having such a system would mean someone, acting as moderator, having to spend part of his/her day because of the actions of these individuals - and I do not think they deserve so much importance. Tapas Nishant Shah wrote: > Hi Arti, All, > I have been a silent lurker in these days of virulent invective and > hate-speech that have unfolded on the reader-list. I haven't been silent > because I had nothing to say, or that I was not provoked. I haven't been > silent because I did not feel equally angered, sometimes to such an extent > that I had to walk away from the computer and swear for the nth time that I > will just unsubscribe from the reader's list. I have been silent because I > do not think I have the vocabulary to counter arguments that are based on > nothing more than personal prejudices, or the resources to deal with emails > that read a little more than poison pen. > > However, there is also another reason why I prefer to be silent, as missiles > are hurled from one end to the other, one camp offering peace flags and > reasons, the other camp packaging the same in mails that resemble hand made > grenades used in violent spaces. Out of long habit of dwelling on various > digital forms, I have realised that the behaviour (read as writing) of some > of the members who have come to haunt this particular digital platform, can > only be classified as 'Troll'. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll). > And as the classic motto goes, 'Do Not Feed The Troll.' There have been many > discussions on the reader-list about questions of censorship, moderation, > facilitation and so on. Each time a particularly venomous bunch of people > descend upon the reader-list, probably abusing their office time and > professional resources to spew horror on to the unwary people, we talk about > the possibilities of lags, of delays, of moderation and of down-right > banning. However, all these, as we have have often observed, will lead to > nowhere. Death, assassination and banning on the interwebz is unfortunately, > only notional, symbolic. There are no finalities to either of them and the > banning or the moderation of one ID would only lead to the Trolls spinning > of many more IDs which would then come back for their pound and a half of > flesh. > > Hence, IMHO, the best thing to do is to stop FEEDING the TROLLS. I second > your request that there are so many other more fruitful ways of engaging > with so many different topics, that it is almost criminal (in the non-legal > sense of the word) to waste time and resources in trying to convince the > digital equivalent of a black box with six pre-fed scripts and no semblance > of intelligence - artificial or otherwise. We might, next, as well start > arguing with characters in a novel, parts in a movie, components of a > website. Instead, it is best to just move on. > > Having said that, I also realise that it is sometimes difficult to move on. > More often than not, Trolls specialise in putting their finger on the exact > right spot that triggers our buttons and induce instantaneous combustion. > And hence, there will always be people replying to these Flames that come > our way; unfortunately thinking all the time that they are doing > fire-fighting, when actually they are just adding fuel to the Troll Fire. > One technical measure that I can think of - and this takes away the > unenviable job of a list moderator - is to implement a tagging system in > place for all mails that come to the reader list. This at least, allows > people to tag their mails - sometimes the titles are misleading and provide > no warning for what is to come - so that when a mail arrives, the readers > can see the tags and decide for themselves whether they want to read the > mail or not. > > The second suggestion I have might be more open for discussion - Most user > based free spaces of interaction in the cyberspace have developed a policy > of reactive resistance to what they look upon as an abuse of the space or > its resources. Under such a policy, you do not ban users from saying what > they want to say, in whichever way they want to say it, but instead allow > other users to 'Report Abuse' against a particular user. The Terms of what > constitutes Abuse can often be generic but also be very specific in nature > and can have a large consultation from the people who have any stake in it. > Reporting Abuse eventually needs some sort of a moderator who either > resolves the problem or simply marks the charged person as guilty of abuse. > Many times, the reason for this marking is also made public. This ensures > that some IDs which are seen as destructive or Trollish, can appear > differently in the conversations, flagged as potentially abusive in nature. > This also helps in new readers or readers who have more invested in the > questions, to stay away from the responses that these IDs might be > generating. > > I hope both these suggestions sound feasible. I would be available for > further communication or planning out of the architectural integration of > such sort to the Reader's List. I am glad for your intervention and pleased > to see that instead of wasting time in responding to the Trolls, we are now > looking upon them as symptomatic to a certain kind of problem that emerges > in 'free speech and free space' and trying to constructively deal with them. > > Un-lurking after a long time, > Nishant > On Jan 22, 2008 12:54 PM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > >> Dear all, >> >> It is becoming more and more difficult to read the writing on the >> reader-list. From misogyny, the likes of which I do not recall ever seeing >> before, to threats of physical violence against women's bodies, to >> right-wing Hindu vitriol, what is going on? It is actually now painful to >> have to see 37 responses on a thread which deserves not even one, because >> people are valiantly trying to talk rationally, reason with, respond to >> people who should just be told to shut up. I know its very hard to keep >> quite and let things go, especially when we have exemplars like chanchal >> and >> vedavati on this list. But we are all just getting fatigued now with this >> relentless barrage of invective and hate that the list is constantly >> subjected to. >> >> So now I am asking for solutions. What is to be done?, as Lenin asked many >> years ago. What is to be done to save the reader-list? Can we have a >> discussion on this? Clearly responding to them in any rational fashion is >> not a solution. And I frankly have no interest or hope that anything any >> of >> us can say will make any difference. This is not about me refusing to have >> a >> conversation, because the fact is, they do not want to have a conversation >> at all. And i think that is quite clear from the writing on the list in >> the >> past two weeks. >> >> This is a request to to please stop engaging with them. Lets ignore them, >> lets not respond to them, lets please just mark all their mails so they go >> into our collective trash folders, lets talk about other things, anything. >> They can then keep talking to each other about the wonderful Hindu nation >> they will build ad nauseum. But we dont have to listen to this. And of >> course they will claim this as a victory etc etc. How we cant respond to >> them, how we have nothing to say to their brilliant argumentation. I can >> already predict the responses to this mail. But I have no trouble saying >> that they are right. I am limited by my own linguistic incapacity to >> respond >> to writing which is so poisonous. >> >> And a final qualification about my use of "us" and "them" and any >> questions >> regarding othering, insularity, assumption of moral superiority etc etc. I >> can unabashedly say that I have absolutely no problems creating this >> binary >> divide. I have no issues saying that these are people I want to have >> nothing >> to do with, as far as I am concerned they are unethical and violent and I >> dont see why they should have any purchase on my time at all. There are >> far >> more interesting things being said and there are interesting people saying >> them who I would much rather read, than the reams and reams of boring >> hateful drivel that constantly issue from the likes of chanchal.. >> >> If anyone else has any other ideas please lets hear them. And if anyone >> has >> forgotten how to make filters so you can trash the trash, here is a link >> to >> Vivek's very instructive mail on the matter: >> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-November/011005.html >> >> best >> Aarti >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > > > > From itsnishant at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 16:58:40 2008 From: itsnishant at gmail.com (Nishant Shah) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:58:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] what is to be done? In-Reply-To: <47986FF9.1030807@gmail.com> References: <48c2916d0801212324m25c66ab3p5bf16ace5ec90864@mail.gmail.com> <47986FF9.1030807@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks to the power of mail filtering, I, like Tapas also have been marking mails from these ids as 'suspicious' and filing them only for later reading - to indeed, have the perverse pleasure, the same as scratching at a scab. I just wanted to clarify that the tagging system does not require a moderator at all. I was suggesting that the users be forced to define the tags to their mails before they are acceptable to the reader list. The idea, as I said, was to help users remember what the discussion was about - there are so many hijackings in sight - and also to warn the readers that these mails might be dealing with material that they might offensive or problematic. The tagging can be introduced as an automated option rather than requiring manual intervention from somebody acting as moderator on the Sarai list. The question of abuse, again, is not about revoking rights or about banning somebody, or even making a judgement call on somebody through a centralised structure. It is simply a way by which IDs which are constantly found abusive by members of the community, can be flagged as such- more like a caution sign to the rest of the readers. I was suggesting both these options as technical solutions which would require miminal human intervention from a 'Moderator' who might other wise need therapy for sifting through the amount of Troll mail that flies through the list :) cheers Nishant On Jan 24, 2008 4:31 PM, Tapas Ray wrote: > I agree with Aarti and Nishant. I have been using filters quite > effectively against these individuals, whose crudity entertained me > initially in a perverse sort of way, but became tiresome after a while. > There is no need for anyone to engage with them, since it is now clear > that their objective is not to take part in rational debate but to > destroy this space by swamping it with hate speech. (The reason, I > think, is that they know they lack the ability to engage in reasoned > debate, and cannot hope to "win" it.) > > Mail filters are effective and can be put in place by anyone in a few > minutes. Nishant's suggestion about tagging and reporting abuse is also > good, but having such a system would mean someone, acting as moderator, > having to spend part of his/her day because of the actions of these > individuals - and I do not think they deserve so much importance. > > Tapas > > > > Nishant Shah wrote: > > Hi Arti, All, > > I have been a silent lurker in these days of virulent invective and > > hate-speech that have unfolded on the reader-list. I haven't been silent > > because I had nothing to say, or that I was not provoked. I haven't been > > silent because I did not feel equally angered, sometimes to such an > extent > > that I had to walk away from the computer and swear for the nth time > that I > > will just unsubscribe from the reader's list. I have been silent because > I > > do not think I have the vocabulary to counter arguments that are based > on > > nothing more than personal prejudices, or the resources to deal with > emails > > that read a little more than poison pen. > > > > However, there is also another reason why I prefer to be silent, as > missiles > > are hurled from one end to the other, one camp offering peace flags and > > reasons, the other camp packaging the same in mails that resemble hand > made > > grenades used in violent spaces. Out of long habit of dwelling on > various > > digital forms, I have realised that the behaviour (read as writing) of > some > > of the members who have come to haunt this particular digital platform, > can > > only be classified as 'Troll'. ( > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll). > > And as the classic motto goes, 'Do Not Feed The Troll.' There have been > many > > discussions on the reader-list about questions of censorship, > moderation, > > facilitation and so on. Each time a particularly venomous bunch of > people > > descend upon the reader-list, probably abusing their office time and > > professional resources to spew horror on to the unwary people, we talk > about > > the possibilities of lags, of delays, of moderation and of down-right > > banning. However, all these, as we have have often observed, will lead > to > > nowhere. Death, assassination and banning on the interwebz is > unfortunately, > > only notional, symbolic. There are no finalities to either of them and > the > > banning or the moderation of one ID would only lead to the Trolls > spinning > > of many more IDs which would then come back for their pound and a half > of > > flesh. > > > > Hence, IMHO, the best thing to do is to stop FEEDING the TROLLS. I > second > > your request that there are so many other more fruitful ways of engaging > > with so many different topics, that it is almost criminal (in the > non-legal > > sense of the word) to waste time and resources in trying to convince the > > digital equivalent of a black box with six pre-fed scripts and no > semblance > > of intelligence - artificial or otherwise. We might, next, as well start > > arguing with characters in a novel, parts in a movie, components of a > > website. Instead, it is best to just move on. > > > > Having said that, I also realise that it is sometimes difficult to move > on. > > More often than not, Trolls specialise in putting their finger on the > exact > > right spot that triggers our buttons and induce instantaneous > combustion. > > And hence, there will always be people replying to these Flames that > come > > our way; unfortunately thinking all the time that they are doing > > fire-fighting, when actually they are just adding fuel to the Troll > Fire. > > One technical measure that I can think of - and this takes away the > > unenviable job of a list moderator - is to implement a tagging system in > > place for all mails that come to the reader list. This at least, allows > > people to tag their mails - sometimes the titles are misleading and > provide > > no warning for what is to come - so that when a mail arrives, the > readers > > can see the tags and decide for themselves whether they want to read the > > mail or not. > > > > The second suggestion I have might be more open for discussion - Most > user > > based free spaces of interaction in the cyberspace have developed a > policy > > of reactive resistance to what they look upon as an abuse of the space > or > > its resources. Under such a policy, you do not ban users from saying > what > > they want to say, in whichever way they want to say it, but instead > allow > > other users to 'Report Abuse' against a particular user. The Terms of > what > > constitutes Abuse can often be generic but also be very specific in > nature > > and can have a large consultation from the people who have any stake in > it. > > Reporting Abuse eventually needs some sort of a moderator who either > > resolves the problem or simply marks the charged person as guilty of > abuse. > > Many times, the reason for this marking is also made public. This > ensures > > that some IDs which are seen as destructive or Trollish, can appear > > differently in the conversations, flagged as potentially abusive in > nature. > > This also helps in new readers or readers who have more invested in the > > questions, to stay away from the responses that these IDs might be > > generating. > > > > I hope both these suggestions sound feasible. I would be available for > > further communication or planning out of the architectural integration > of > > such sort to the Reader's List. I am glad for your intervention and > pleased > > to see that instead of wasting time in responding to the Trolls, we are > now > > looking upon them as symptomatic to a certain kind of problem that > emerges > > in 'free speech and free space' and trying to constructively deal with > them. > > > > Un-lurking after a long time, > > Nishant > > On Jan 22, 2008 12:54 PM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > > > > >> Dear all, > >> > >> It is becoming more and more difficult to read the writing on the > >> reader-list. From misogyny, the likes of which I do not recall ever > seeing > >> before, to threats of physical violence against women's bodies, to > >> right-wing Hindu vitriol, what is going on? It is actually now painful > to > >> have to see 37 responses on a thread which deserves not even one, > because > >> people are valiantly trying to talk rationally, reason with, respond to > >> people who should just be told to shut up. I know its very hard to keep > >> quite and let things go, especially when we have exemplars like > chanchal > >> and > >> vedavati on this list. But we are all just getting fatigued now with > this > >> relentless barrage of invective and hate that the list is constantly > >> subjected to. > >> > >> So now I am asking for solutions. What is to be done?, as Lenin asked > many > >> years ago. What is to be done to save the reader-list? Can we have a > >> discussion on this? Clearly responding to them in any rational fashion > is > >> not a solution. And I frankly have no interest or hope that anything > any > >> of > >> us can say will make any difference. This is not about me refusing to > have > >> a > >> conversation, because the fact is, they do not want to have a > conversation > >> at all. And i think that is quite clear from the writing on the list in > >> the > >> past two weeks. > >> > >> This is a request to to please stop engaging with them. Lets ignore > them, > >> lets not respond to them, lets please just mark all their mails so they > go > >> into our collective trash folders, lets talk about other things, > anything. > >> They can then keep talking to each other about the wonderful Hindu > nation > >> they will build ad nauseum. But we dont have to listen to this. And of > >> course they will claim this as a victory etc etc. How we cant respond > to > >> them, how we have nothing to say to their brilliant argumentation. I > can > >> already predict the responses to this mail. But I have no trouble > saying > >> that they are right. I am limited by my own linguistic incapacity to > >> respond > >> to writing which is so poisonous. > >> > >> And a final qualification about my use of "us" and "them" and any > >> questions > >> regarding othering, insularity, assumption of moral superiority etc > etc. I > >> can unabashedly say that I have absolutely no problems creating this > >> binary > >> divide. I have no issues saying that these are people I want to have > >> nothing > >> to do with, as far as I am concerned they are unethical and violent and > I > >> dont see why they should have any purchase on my time at all. There are > >> far > >> more interesting things being said and there are interesting people > saying > >> them who I would much rather read, than the reams and reams of boring > >> hateful drivel that constantly issue from the likes of chanchal.. > >> > >> If anyone else has any other ideas please lets hear them. And if anyone > >> has > >> forgotten how to make filters so you can trash the trash, here is a > link > >> to > >> Vivek's very instructive mail on the matter: > >> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007-November/011005.html > >> > >> best > >> Aarti > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Nishant Shah Ph.D. Student, CSCS, Bangalore. Project Manager, COMAT, Bangalore. # 0-9740074884 From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Jan 24 17:13:58 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:43:58 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm and a quest for hired limousines In-Reply-To: <4e2b33ffb939fd1323ad08a2ddab8750@sarai.net> References: <4e2b33ffb939fd1323ad08a2ddab8750@sarai.net> Message-ID: Shuddha, your post script made me think, what sort of citizens we do have in our nation, when those brave soldiers defend the land and lives of citizens, we want to propagate that they are "harassing" the citizens. ?Basic issue herein is where should the defence forces have to act, where should they be in the nation, for defence of the nation or in just barracks to come out for any natural calamities like floods, tsunami or earth quake only. ? Some mistakes maight be there from these humans in uniform, but what is overlooked is they are made to fight with enemies "without" uniform, who come as civilians, take out AK47s and grenades and hurl at other citizens to have their say in the civilised nation, and that is not harassing. ? Simple solution to Kashmir issue is basically, governance should stop subsidising the livelihood of Kashmir, make them earn their livelihood, facilitate the life to earn, then on hungry stomachs work becomes the need, earning becomes important, now with easy money from across the border, few hold the strings to harass all citizens in Kashmir. Defence forces have no urge to be in kashmir for the sake of it but for insurgency, sheltored and abetted by few in society for the gains of illegal money.In fact the soldiers are most stressed lot as politicians play the game of peace talks when the same can be replaced by firm action on these militants, within the society for societal good. ? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: shuddha at sarai.net Date: Thursday, January 24, 2008 10:15 am Subject: [Reader-list] Iconoclasm and a quest for hired limousines To: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear Rashneek, Dear All on the List > > Happy new year. (so what if it is a few weeks old !) > > I have watched with dismay our list degenerating from the heights it > ascended to with Rashneek Kher's riposte to my annotations on the > historyof iconoclasm in Kashmir. The current volley of invective > unleashed by > Oishik, Chanchal Malviya, Radhikarajen, We Wi and Pawan Durani is > sad, and > I hope we can climb out of it, as we did momentarily when Arnab, > Sadan,Prem Chandravarkar and others were discussing archives, > personhood and > other things that make this list more worthwhile. I hope I can > attend to > some of those fascinating questions in coming days. I also hope (in > agreement with Ravi Agarwal's response to Aarti, that matters > other than > those that concern our resident Hindu patriots can get a hearing. > It would > be tragic if this list were to be monopolized by a bunch of time > servingfanatics intent on the destruction of conversation with > their hatred filled > agenda. The arts, environment, technology, culture, > contemporaneity, the > making of images and words, philosophical speculation and debate, - > all > these are part of the mandate of this list, and need vigorous > cultivation.The best way to deal with right wing lunacy is to > ensure that it does not > drown other voices. I appeal to everyone on this list to ensure > that this > does not happen. Please write, and write about a lot of other > things as > well. > > But this post takes us back to the issues raised by Rashneek Kher on > iconoclasm on Christmas day last month. > > I read with interest your (Rashneek's) long posts in reply to my > annotations on iconoclasm in Kashmir, posted almost exactly a > month ago . > And I appreciate the hard work that Rashneek has put in. Thank > your for all > the notes and references. They are useful. > > I do however have some issues with the contents of Rashneek's > argument. i > do not wish this to be a very detailed post, so I will keep my > arguments as > brief as possible. > > FIrstly, it is disingenuous on your part to say that you had not > said that > Hindu kings had not undertaken acts of Iconoclasm. The question of > iconoclasm was raised by you in a response that you wrote to my > reply to > Pawan Durani about genocide by Communist rulers. In my reply, I > had said > that I am willing to atone for the genocidial violence that stains the > record of regimes that have used the name Communist to describe > themselves,and asked, whether Pawan Durani would be similarly > prepared to grieve and > atone for those killed in order to defend the Indian nation in > Kashmir. In > your reply to my willingness to atone, you invoked what you > implied was > another history of violence in Kashmir, where you focused, or > chose to > focus on instances of (solely) Muslim iconoclasm. You made it > appear in > your post as if iconoclasm and temple destruction and Islam had some > special relationship, and you did not mention non Muslim > iconoclasm and > temple destruction in Kashmir. Had you wanted to be objective, you > couldhave mentioned that non Muslim rulers also destroyed temples. > You chose not > to. > > Secondly, the implications of your argument about the relative > merits of > different acts of iconoclasm and temple destruction based on a > reading of > the motives behind them are interesting. In your conceptual and moral > universe, greed, lust for wealth and power (which for you are the > motivesof the acts of iconoclasm of the non-muslim rulers of > Kashmir) seem to be > somehow preferable to the iconoclasm that derives its energy from > faith and > proselytization alone (which you attribute solely to the three > Muslim kings > you mention). > > The iconoclasm of non-muslim Kings, though reprehensible, is in > your view, > less damaging in the last instance, because it is not accompanied > by a > faith based fanaticism. > > I am not interested (and never have been) in furnishing a differential > framework of justification for any act of destruction. I condemn, > unequivocally, acts of violence by ruling powers, no matter which > rulingpower perpetuates them, and for what reason. Not because I > view them > through the lens committed to the hierarchical and differential > ordering of > their motives but because I view them in terms of their > consequences. The > consequences, unvaryingly, are tragic, no matter what the > declared, or > retrospectively unveiled 'motives' may be. > > It matters little to me as to whether those who witness and > recount such > acts condemn these motives as base (as Kalhana does) or glorify > them as > exalted (as some of the Muslim chroniclers you mention do, though > others,like Kalhan, are prepared to call them base). What matters > to me is that > these instances were acts of wanton destruction, and need to be > recognizedas such. > > But let us leave the absured question of whether it is 'better' to > destroyfor greed or the so called greater glory of god aside for > the moment. > > As far as the attribution of motives to acts of state terror are > concerned,(and the killing of people, and the destruction of their > property by forces > partisan to the state are acts of state terror, no matter who > orders them, > or when they occur) I am less than willing to accept the motives > ascribedto them (which you accept without hesitation) by court > chroniclers. > Let us take a contemporary example to try and understand what I > mean. If we > follow the debate on Nandigram, which has occurred on this list and > elsewhere, we will see that several people (myself included) have no > hesitation in seeing the violence that has been unleashed in West > Bengal by > the ruling CPI(M) as being symptomatic of the avarice, greed, lust for > wealth, influence and power that has completely turned the heads > of the > leadership of the CPI(M) led government in that state. While on > the other > hand, the people I would consider to be the 'court chroniclers' and > apologists of the CPI(M) have insisted that in fact the CPI(M)'s > actionsare actually evidence of its commitment to the pro-people > developmentpolicies that it claims to uphold. Substitute a > commitment to what our so > called Communist Parties call 'people's democracy' with what the > 'courtchroniclers' of the Kashmiri Salatin's called 'Islam' and > you will see > exactly what I mean. Or, better still, if you read the writing on > Army, BSF > and CRPF bunkers in Kashmir and Srinagar, which often declare that the > Indian Armed Forces are protecting the 'Freedom' or 'Azaadi' of the > Kashmiri population then too you will see what I mean. > > Every ruling power attempts to dignify its base violence with the > sanctityof an exalted purpose. In Marxism we call this exalted > purpose 'Ideology'. > So, when the court chroniclers of the Salatins say that the > purpose of loot > and the destruction of property is the advancement of Islam, I am > quitewilling to bet that what we see is as much 'ideology' in > operation as when > someone like Prabhat Patnaik exhorts the CPI(M) faithful that > whatever is > happening in West Bengal is happening for the benefit of the > people there. > In both cases, the greed and lust for power are given a suitably > exalted'cover' by intellectuals who also happen to be courtiers. > > Strangely, if I were to accept your logic that the actions of > Muslim rulers > in Kashmir can be glossed only in terms of their commitment to > their faith, > then we have to arrive at another paradoxical conclusion - which > is as > follows - that the pre-eminence of Kashmiri Pandits throughout the > historyof medieval Kashmir, the fact that their religion and > rituals remained > intact, that new temples were also built and that Sanskrit scholarship > continued to exist in Kashmir, is also indicative of the strength > of the > piety of those Muslim rulers who ensured that all this could happen. > Because, the Qur'an explicitly states ' To you your faith, and to > me mine', > or 'that there can be no compulsion in matters of religion'. In other > words, just as (following your logic) those Muslim rulers who > persecutedPandits and destroyed temples were acting as per the > injunctions of their > faiths, those other Muslim rulers who did not persecute Pandits > and did not > destroy temples were also acting out of their 'Islamic' religious > motivations. In other words the 'bad' Muslims were bad because > they were > Muslims, and the 'good' Muslims were good because they were > Muslims. I do > not see how this line of reasoning can help us to understand anything, > because it is internally contradictory. > > I have heard and read many Muslim and Islamist ideologues argue > that the > historical record of Islamic rule in the pre-modern world is > indicative of > its higher tolerance of diversity, (which is empiricially true if > we take > into account the broad contours of the cultural and religious > histories of > the Ottoman, Abbasid, Fatimid, and Mughal empires), and that this is > because, Islam itself is the 'most tolerant' and peace loving of > all faiths. > > Now, let me make it abundantly clear that I think that this line of > reasoning is absolute rubbish. It is Islamist propaganda that I do > not buy > at all. Islam per se is neither more nor less tolerant than other > faiths.And Muslim rulers are not tolerant or intolerant because > they are 'Muslims'. > > Muslim rulers were tolerant, or not, because it was expedient for > them to > be so, because tolerance, or highly selective but non > discriminatory forms > of intolerance were effective and pragmatic instruments of rule. > Similarly,I do not think that Narendra Modi organizes pogroms, and > arranges for the > massacre of Muslims in Gujarat because he is a good Hindu. I think > he does > so because this is a means by which he can rule through terror and > fear. To > give his actions a 'Hindu' gloss, despite the spin and > representationalexcess with which it is surrounded, (including by > him and his courtiers) > would be succumbing to the error of mistaking reality for > ideology, the > concreteness of the deed for the slipperiness of the word. > > Similarly, to say, like the court chroniclers you mention that 'temple > destruction' was motivated by the cause of furthering the agenda > of Islam > is about as meaningless, in my opinion, as saying that the > tolerance and > liberality of Muslim rule existed in order to further the agenda > of Islam. > What you are saying, and what Islamist apologists of the principle > of the > so called 'just caliphate' say actually amount to the same things, > thoughyou come to them from different ends and from different > purposes - namely > that the acts of Muslim rulers must only be seen in terms of their > provenance in the sacred tenets of Islam, while the acts of non > Muslimrulers can be explained by mundane motivations. This > amounts, actually to a > theory of 'Muslim exceptionalism' that can be used to justify and/or > describe anything and everything when it is attached to any entity > that is > nominally Muslim, from the Islamo-Fascism of bin Laden and > Ahmedinijad to > the liberality and openness of Jalaluddin Rumi, even to the playful > heresies of Ma'arri and Rushdie. > > I prefer a more simple and simutaneously more complex explaination > - which > sees actions and motives rooted in everyday contexts, and > especially views > Kingship, statecraft and the exercise of political power of any > kind as a > complex intersection of different kinds of motives, mainly base and > mundane, mainly to do with the accumulation of wealth and the > maintenanceof patterns of domination by different ruling classes > in different epochs. > > Finally, lets turn our attention a little to the manner in which > you have > read your sources. I notice, that the actual substantive 'temple > destroyers' that you mention are none other than the familiar Sikandar > But-Shikan, whose name you drag out like a cheap magic trick, > again and > again. > > You list 49 references from Jia Lal Kilam's book, forgetting to > mentionthat temple destruction are mentioned very few times in > these references. > The bulk of these citations have to do with the persecution of > pandits (and > others) for reasons that have to do with expediency, court > politics, greed > for wealth and a host of other mundane factors. The few instances were > Muslim fanaticism is at play are also those that are also > corrected and > resisted by other Muslim claimants to power. But we hardly find > any > specific mentions of temple destruction. This makes it difficult > to believe > that the quantum of temple destruction in Muslim rule was > substantiallydifferent from what might have occured earlier. > > Generally, the behaviour of oppressive Muslim kings is just as > base, just > as banal, just as reprehensible as their non-Muslim predecessors. > Just to > give an example, (because I do not want to bore our readers with > an excess > of detail, an achoholic king like Haider Shah ('given to drunken > orgies' in > Kilam's words) makes for as good and devout a Muslim as the pork > eatingShiva worshipping crypto Muslim pioneer called Harsha - whom > you are happy > to claim is Muslim because Kalhana uses the word 'Turushka' for > him. S > > You conveniently cite Abdul Qayoom Rafiqi (Sufism in Kashmir) > mentioingSyed Ali Hamadani's list of injunctions agains 'Zimmis' > without mentioing > that the term 'Zimmis' (the protected) refer to Jews and > Christians, not to > Hindus. The word used for Hindus is Kafir, and Rafiqui whom you cite, > actually refers to Hamadani's verses stressing the equality in > God's eyes > of the Momin (Muslim) and the Kafir. This actually really damages your > argument, as does the fact that Rafiqui explicitly mentions the > fact that > the fanatical excesses of his successor, Mir Mohammad Hamadani > were also > resisted, and defeated by another Sufi > > Thank you once again for the energy with which you have attempted to > marshall evidence for your arguments, I am afraid, that after a > dispassionate reading of your arguments, I am forced to conclude > that they > make up in shrillness what they lack in coherence and cogency. > > Keep trying, > > regards > > Shuddha > > PS. As long as non Kashmiri Indian soldiers continue to occupy and > harassKashmiris in Kashmir, I am afraid you will have to deal with > the likes of > me, commenting on the situation in Kashmir. I do this, not because > I have a > particular interest in what you call the 'pain' of Kashmir. I am not > Kashmiri, and have no interest in giving further purchase to > Kashmir self > pity, regardless of the denomination that it speaks in the name > of. Rather, > I am interested in understanding and resisting what a prolonged > period of > military occupation does to the occupying power. Let the last non > KashmiriIndian soldier leave the valley, and I too, will 'cease- > fire'. Until that > is done, I am afraid, the skirmish will continue. > > Finally, at the end of your multi part missive, you exhort Pawan > Duraniwith the words, "Be not despaired of these,limousine > liberals oh my friend > Pawan Durani,poor in means,we maybe,but aren't poor in passion and > zest." > While it is interesting to think of people who brandish their > 'blackberryfuelled' enthusiasm as being 'poor in means', I must > point out that all my > life I have wanted at least a brief ride in a limousine on Delhi's > streets.A liberal, I am not, but I really would not mind an > occasional spin in a > hired limousine . Alas, I have never really enjoyed the delights > of one. I > did notice, that on 'Homeland Day' which was celebrated with a > major bash > by the Panun Kashmir organization I noticed a long line of expensive > automobiles outside the Chinmaya Mission Auditorium on Lodi Road > in Delhi > where Panun Kashmir was pledging itself anew to its homeland. I > noticed in > particular the several shiny grey and black Toyota Innovas, which > thoughnot limousines, are handsome vehicles. Perhaps our Kashmiri > Pandit Patriot > friends were there in person too. Would any of them care to lend > me, or any > other anti-national automobile fanatics, a nice big car for a day? > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Jan 24 17:25:43 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:55:43 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] what is to be done? In-Reply-To: References: <48c2916d0801212324m25c66ab3p5bf16ace5ec90864@mail.gmail.com> <"ac 6c08200801240216j2929a3a2yf8a6156ea46f0655"@mail.gmail.com> <47986FF9.1030807@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Nishanth, thanks for illuminating the minds and hearts of members on the readers list. For Tapas, the debate is to win, for me debate and discussion is to exchange thoughts and review them, if found useful for fruitful life use them, but the very fact that open mind is absent in many is the cause of concern. If any one does not tow the line, the typical response is to shun the thoughts ? Well, for me I like to read and mull over each of the thoughts without bothering much about from which id the thought has originated, but I may or may not agree with those thoughts, I respect the thoughts. Without even reading the thought and total rejection of any thoughts shows only the typical "intellectual" mindset of the leftist idealogy where as long as you are yes men you are with them or otherwise you are not theirs, such become others. ? When intellectuals in Bengal protested against the crude behaviour of the cadres, initial response was to use filters, with voters,. Guns and bullets and violence, were not effective filters but power of thoughts is such that good thoughts will rise to awaken the intellectual at any point of time and make him/her think, as whether the continued support to the wrongs by handful thinkers in the politburo is right or incorrect. So filters of the technology or the non response will not help as good thoughts for humanity always tug at the conscious mind. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Nishant Shah Date: Thursday, January 24, 2008 5:01 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] what is to be done? To: Tapas Ray Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Thanks to the power of mail filtering, I, like Tapas also have > been marking > mails from these ids as 'suspicious' and filing them only for > later reading > - to indeed, have the perverse pleasure, the same as scratching at > a scab. > > I just wanted to clarify that the tagging system does not require a > moderator at all. I was suggesting that the users be forced to > define the > tags to their mails before they are acceptable to the reader list. > The idea, > as I said, was to help users remember what the discussion was > about - there > are so many hijackings in sight - and also to warn the readers > that these > mails might be dealing with material that they might offensive or > problematic. The tagging can be introduced as an automated option > ratherthan requiring manual intervention from somebody acting as > moderator on the > Sarai list. > > The question of abuse, again, is not about revoking rights or > about banning > somebody, or even making a judgement call on somebody through a > centralisedstructure. It is simply a way by which IDs which are > constantly found > abusive by members of the community, can be flagged as such- more > like a > caution sign to the rest of the readers. I was suggesting both > these options > as technical solutions which would require miminal human > intervention from a > 'Moderator' who might other wise need therapy for sifting through > the amount > of Troll mail that flies through the list :) > > cheers > Nishant > > On Jan 24, 2008 4:31 PM, Tapas Ray wrote: > > > I agree with Aarti and Nishant. I have been using filters quite > > effectively against these individuals, whose crudity entertained me > > initially in a perverse sort of way, but became tiresome after a > while.> There is no need for anyone to engage with them, since it > is now clear > > that their objective is not to take part in rational debate but to > > destroy this space by swamping it with hate speech. (The reason, I > > think, is that they know they lack the ability to engage in reasoned > > debate, and cannot hope to "win" it.) > > > > Mail filters are effective and can be put in place by anyone in > a few > > minutes. Nishant's suggestion about tagging and reporting abuse > is also > > good, but having such a system would mean someone, acting as > moderator,> having to spend part of his/her day because of the > actions of these > > individuals - and I do not think they deserve so much importance. > > > > Tapas > > > > > > > > Nishant Shah wrote: > > > Hi Arti, All, > > > I have been a silent lurker in these days of virulent > invective and > > > hate-speech that have unfolded on the reader-list. I haven't > been silent > > > because I had nothing to say, or that I was not provoked. I > haven't been > > > silent because I did not feel equally angered, sometimes to > such an > > extent > > > that I had to walk away from the computer and swear for the > nth time > > that I > > > will just unsubscribe from the reader's list. I have been > silent because > > I > > > do not think I have the vocabulary to counter arguments that > are based > > on > > > nothing more than personal prejudices, or the resources to > deal with > > emails > > > that read a little more than poison pen. > > > > > > However, there is also another reason why I prefer to be > silent, as > > missiles > > > are hurled from one end to the other, one camp offering peace > flags and > > > reasons, the other camp packaging the same in mails that > resemble hand > > made > > > grenades used in violent spaces. Out of long habit of dwelling on > > various > > > digital forms, I have realised that the behaviour (read as > writing) of > > some > > > of the members who have come to haunt this particular digital > platform,> can > > > only be classified as 'Troll'. ( > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll). > > > And as the classic motto goes, 'Do Not Feed The Troll.' There > have been > > many > > > discussions on the reader-list about questions of censorship, > > moderation, > > > facilitation and so on. Each time a particularly venomous > bunch of > > people > > > descend upon the reader-list, probably abusing their office > time and > > > professional resources to spew horror on to the unwary people, > we talk > > about > > > the possibilities of lags, of delays, of moderation and of > down-right > > > banning. However, all these, as we have have often observed, > will lead > > to > > > nowhere. Death, assassination and banning on the interwebz is > > unfortunately, > > > only notional, symbolic. There are no finalities to either of > them and > > the > > > banning or the moderation of one ID would only lead to the Trolls > > spinning > > > of many more IDs which would then come back for their pound > and a half > > of > > > flesh. > > > > > > Hence, IMHO, the best thing to do is to stop FEEDING the > TROLLS. I > > second > > > your request that there are so many other more fruitful ways > of engaging > > > with so many different topics, that it is almost criminal (in the > > non-legal > > > sense of the word) to waste time and resources in trying to > convince the > > > digital equivalent of a black box with six pre-fed scripts and no > > semblance > > > of intelligence - artificial or otherwise. We might, next, as > well start > > > arguing with characters in a novel, parts in a movie, > components of a > > > website. Instead, it is best to just move on. > > > > > > Having said that, I also realise that it is sometimes > difficult to move > > on. > > > More often than not, Trolls specialise in putting their finger > on the > > exact > > > right spot that triggers our buttons and induce instantaneous > > combustion. > > > And hence, there will always be people replying to these > Flames that > > come > > > our way; unfortunately thinking all the time that they are doing > > > fire-fighting, when actually they are just adding fuel to the > Troll> Fire. > > > One technical measure that I can think of - and this takes > away the > > > unenviable job of a list moderator - is to implement a tagging > system in > > > place for all mails that come to the reader list. This at > least, allows > > > people to tag their mails - sometimes the titles are > misleading and > > provide > > > no warning for what is to come - so that when a mail arrives, the > > readers > > > can see the tags and decide for themselves whether they want > to read the > > > mail or not. > > > > > > The second suggestion I have might be more open for discussion > - Most > > user > > > based free spaces of interaction in the cyberspace have > developed a > > policy > > > of reactive resistance to what they look upon as an abuse of > the space > > or > > > its resources. Under such a policy, you do not ban users from > saying> what > > > they want to say, in whichever way they want to say it, but > instead> allow > > > other users to 'Report Abuse' against a particular user. The > Terms of > > what > > > constitutes Abuse can often be generic but also be very > specific in > > nature > > > and can have a large consultation from the people who have any > stake in > > it. > > > Reporting Abuse eventually needs some sort of a moderator who > either> > resolves the problem or simply marks the charged person > as guilty of > > abuse. > > > Many times, the reason for this marking is also made public. This > > ensures > > > that some IDs which are seen as destructive or Trollish, can > appear> > differently in the conversations, flagged as potentially > abusive in > > nature. > > > This also helps in new readers or readers who have more > invested in the > > > questions, to stay away from the responses that these IDs > might be > > > generating. > > > > > > I hope both these suggestions sound feasible. I would be > available for > > > further communication or planning out of the architectural > integration> of > > > such sort to the Reader's List. I am glad for your > intervention and > > pleased > > > to see that instead of wasting time in responding to the > Trolls, we are > > now > > > looking upon them as symptomatic to a certain kind of problem that > > emerges > > > in 'free speech and free space' and trying to constructively > deal with > > them. > > > > > > Un-lurking after a long time, > > > Nishant > > > On Jan 22, 2008 12:54 PM, Aarti Sethi > wrote:> > > > > > > >> Dear all, > > >> > > >> It is becoming more and more difficult to read the writing on the > > >> reader-list. From misogyny, the likes of which I do not > recall ever > > seeing > > >> before, to threats of physical violence against women's > bodies, to > > >> right-wing Hindu vitriol, what is going on? It is actually > now painful > > to > > >> have to see 37 responses on a thread which deserves not even one, > > because > > >> people are valiantly trying to talk rationally, reason with, > respond to > > >> people who should just be told to shut up. I know its very > hard to keep > > >> quite and let things go, especially when we have exemplars like > > chanchal > > >> and > > >> vedavati on this list. But we are all just getting fatigued > now with > > this > > >> relentless barrage of invective and hate that the list is > constantly> >> subjected to. > > >> > > >> So now I am asking for solutions. What is to be done?, as > Lenin asked > > many > > >> years ago. What is to be done to save the reader-list? Can we > have a > > >> discussion on this? Clearly responding to them in any > rational fashion > > is > > >> not a solution. And I frankly have no interest or hope that > anything> any > > >> of > > >> us can say will make any difference. This is not about me > refusing to > > have > > >> a > > >> conversation, because the fact is, they do not want to have a > > conversation > > >> at all. And i think that is quite clear from the writing on > the list in > > >> the > > >> past two weeks. > > >> > > >> This is a request to to please stop engaging with them. Lets > ignore> them, > > >> lets not respond to them, lets please just mark all their > mails so they > > go > > >> into our collective trash folders, lets talk about other things, > > anything. > > >> They can then keep talking to each other about the wonderful > Hindu> nation > > >> they will build ad nauseum. But we dont have to listen to > this. And of > > >> course they will claim this as a victory etc etc. How we cant > respond> to > > >> them, how we have nothing to say to their brilliant > argumentation. I > > can > > >> already predict the responses to this mail. But I have no trouble > > saying > > >> that they are right. I am limited by my own linguistic > incapacity to > > >> respond > > >> to writing which is so poisonous. > > >> > > >> And a final qualification about my use of "us" and "them" and any > > >> questions > > >> regarding othering, insularity, assumption of moral > superiority etc > > etc. I > > >> can unabashedly say that I have absolutely no problems > creating this > > >> binary > > >> divide. I have no issues saying that these are people I want > to have > > >> nothing > > >> to do with, as far as I am concerned they are unethical and > violent and > > I > > >> dont see why they should have any purchase on my time at all. > There are > > >> far > > >> more interesting things being said and there are interesting > people> saying > > >> them who I would much rather read, than the reams and reams > of boring > > >> hateful drivel that constantly issue from the likes of chanchal.. > > >> > > >> If anyone else has any other ideas please lets hear them. And > if anyone > > >> has > > >> forgotten how to make filters so you can trash the trash, > here is a > > link > > >> to > > >> Vivek's very instructive mail on the matter: > > >> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007- > November/011005.html> >> > > >> best > > >> Aarti > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > -- > Nishant Shah > Ph.D. Student, CSCS, Bangalore. > Project Manager, COMAT, Bangalore. > # 0-9740074884 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Jan 24 17:51:06 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:21:06 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] the likes of Kafeel, Sabeel and Haneef... In-Reply-To: <390447.88461.qm@web8403.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <390447.88461.qm@web8403.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Fathima., thanks for the new found definition of terrorists, for the brave men, who fought for the freedom in british India. The very nature of justification like this is expected from the type of secularism that we are having today in India. Lack of good governance, bad governance, sticking to power at any cost, even after the high court rules the illegalality in election are all the root causes for Indira to subvert the constitution to keep herself in power, which led to creation of a bhindranvale, later her son, acting big brother in the region fed, encouraged LTTE, and later both paid the price for it with their lives. But let us not divert the attention of the topic about terrorism with this psuedo secular definition of terrorists. Lack of governance and protest against such lack of governance does not make the singur and nandigram residents terrorists, the religious terrorism is basically found in abrahamic faiths, never in hindu way of life which accepts all faith as different ways to same god, percieved by some as in forms, some without form...... Regards. From: "S.Fatima" Date: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:35 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] the likes of Kafeel, Sabeel and Haneef... To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, Javed Cc: Pawan Durani , chanchal malviya , reader-list > (Sarai-readers, my apologies for clogging up space) > > Dear Radhika > I am just reacting to your comment: "All Muslims are > not terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims." > > Please see the following report from Times of India, > Jul 23, 2006: > > "Terrorism is not a Muslim monopoly" > > SWAMINATHAN S ANKLESARIA AIYAR > > "All Muslims may not be terrorists, but all terrorists > are Muslims." This comment, frequently heard after the > Mumbai bomb blasts implies that terrorism is a Muslim > specialty, if not a monopoly. The facts are very > different. > > First, there is nothing new about terrorism. In 1881, > anarchists killed the Russian Tsar Alexander II and 21 > bystanders. In 1901, anarchists killed US President > McKinley as well as King Humbert I of Italy. World War > I started in 1914 when anarchists killed Archduke > Ferdinand of Austria. These terrorist attacks were not > Muslim. > > Terrorism is generally defined as the killing of > civilians for political reasons. Going by this > definition, the British Raj referred to Bhagat Singh, > Chandrashekhar Azad and many other Indian freedom > fighters as terrorists. These were Hindu and Sikh > rather than Muslim. > > Guerrilla fighters from Mao Zedong to Ho Chi Minh and > Fidel Castro killed civilians during their > revolutionary campaigns. They too were called > terrorists until they triumphed. Nothing Muslim about > them. > > In Palestine, after World War II, Jewish groups (the > Haganah, Irgun and Stern Gang) fought for the creation > of a Jewish state, bombing hotels and installations > and killing civilians. The British, who then governed > Palestine, rightly called these Jewish groups > terrorists. Many of these terrorists later became > leaders of independent Israel — Moshe Dayan, Yitzhak > Rabin, Menachem Begin, Ariel Sharon. Ironically, these > former terrorists then lambasted terrorism, applying > this label only to Arabs fighting for the very same > nationhood that the Jews had fought for earlier. > > In Germany in 1968-92, the Baader-Meinhoff Gang killed > dozens, including the head of Treuhand, the German > privatisation agency. In Italy, the Red Brigades > kidnapped and killed Aldo Moro, former prime minister. > > > The Japanese Red Army was an Asian version of this. > Japan was also the home of Aum Shinrikyo, a Buddhist > cult that tried to kill thousands in the Tokyo metro > system using nerve gas in 1995. > > In Europe, the Irish Republican Army has been a > Catholic terrorist organisation for almost a century. > Spain and France face a terrorist challenge from ETA, > the Basque terrorist organisation. > > Africa is ravaged by so much civil war and internal > strife that few people even bother to check which > groups can be labelled terrorist. They stretch across > the continent. Possibly the most notorious is the > Lord’s Salvation Army in Uganda, a Christian outfit > that uses children as warriors. > > In Sri Lanka, the Tamil Tigers have long constituted > one of the most vicious and formidable terrorist > groups in the world. They were the first to train > children as terrorists. They happen to be Hindus. > Suicide bombing is widely associated with Muslim > Palestinians and Iraqis, but the Tamil Tigers were the > first to use this tactic on a large scale. One such > suicide bomber assassinated Rajiv Gandhi in 1991. > > In India, the militants in Kashmir are Muslim. But > they are only one of several militant groups. The > Punjab militants, led by Bhindranwale, were Sikhs. The > United Liberation Front of Assam is a Hindu terrorist > group that targets Muslims rather than the other way > round. Tripura has witnessed the rise and fall of > several terrorist groups, and so have Bodo strongholds > in Assam. Christian Mizos mounted an insurrection for > decades, and Christian Nagas are still heading > militant groups. > > But most important of all are the Maoist terrorist > groups that now exist in no less than 150 out of > India’s 600 districts. They have attacked police > stations, and killed and razed entire villages that > oppose them. These are secular terrorists (like the > Baader Meinhof Gang or Red Brigades). In terms of > membership and area controlled, secular terrorists are > far ahead of Muslim terrorists. > > In sum, terrorism is certainly not a Muslim monopoly. > There are or have been terrorist groups among > Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, and even Buddhists. > Secular terrorists (anarchists, Maoists) have been the > biggest killers. > > Why then is there such a widespread impression that > most or all terrorist groups are Muslim? I see two > reasons. First, the Indian elite keenly follows the > western media, and the West feels under attack from > Islamic groups. Catholic Irish terrorists have killed > far more people in Britain than Muslims, yet the > subway bombings in London and Madrid are what > Europeans remember today. The Baader Meinhof Gang, IRA > and Red Brigades no longer pose much of a threat, but > after 9/11 Americans and Europeans fear that they > could be hit anywhere anytime. So they focus attention > on Islamic militancy. They pay little notice to other > forms of terrorism in Africa, Sri Lanka or India: > these pose no threat to the West. > > Within India, Maoists pose a far greater threat than > Muslim militants in 150 districts, one-third of > India’s area. But major cities feel threatened only by > Muslim groups. So the national elite and media focus > overwhelmingly on Muslim terrorism. The elite are > hardly aware that this is an elite phenomenon. > > http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Repository/ml.asp?Ref=VE9JTS8yMDA2LzA3LzIzI0FyMDEyMDA=&Mode=HTML&Locale=english-skin-custom > > > --- radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > > Fatima, > > > > again some hate for the group of individuals in > > student community just because they are not under > > banner of NSUI or DYSI ? Can you cite one instance > > of funding terror by HSC or any student union of > > Sangh parivar for the progoms as you say ? NRIs of > > hindu origin if they contribute to Sangh parivar, it > > becomes funds for terror ? What is the basis of this > > assumption of false propaganda. ? As I have already > > told you, some do not represent the whole of > > community as you have rightly pointed out, just as > > all muslims are not terrorists, but all terrorists > > are muslims, as seen by society by now. Society as a > > whole has big role in stopping the fanatic elements > > in society, otherwise the results are obivious, in > > actions and reactions as seen in Gujarath. In free > > India, every time the riots broke, it was the > > "secular" parties which rewarded the rioters with > > plush MP or MLA tickets and thus goon shouting > > brigades were built, to force the silent majority in > > any faith to comply with their > > wishes to put the rowdy in legislation forum. In > > Gujarath, it must be remembered that administration > > did not hesitate to fire bullets at rioters > > irrespective whether they were of hindu or muslim > > faith. But our "secular" media with sycophants in as > > anchors have only exploited with SMS and debate > > revenues to enrich themselves with bank rolls. > > Is there any justification for the visual media to > > show again and again the gujarath riots every time > > the elections are around the corner by the reward > > and award winning "journalists" crooning for > > "secular" parties when the truth of the matter is > > these very same "secular" parties were the fomentors > > of trouble between communities ? > > > > By the way, I have read one of the mail by Sarai > > adfmn regarding many mails in response which says to > > ignore the mails from ids who post 4-5 mails and > > clog the mailbox, may be sarai does not want face > > the truth to retain its "secular" image. ? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "S.Fatima" > > Date: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 2:11 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] the likes of Kafeel, > > Sabeel and Haneef... > > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, Pawan Durani > > > > Cc: "S.Fatima" , chanchal > > malviya , reader-list > > > > > > > Dear Pawan/Radhika > > > Is there a difference between funding the > > activities > > > of hate and and actually doing the arsoning and > > rape? > > > HSC may not have participated in the violence, but > > > they did fund the Gujarat pogorm from their > > armchairs. > > > The NRIs are probably more religious and communal > > than > > > even resident Indians (and I include both Hindus > > and > > > Muslims in it). > > > > > > The beauty of our terminology is that when a > > Muslim is > > > involved in arson or kidnapping, he is a > > terrorist. > > > When anyone else does the same, he is a > > reactionary. > > > Why? > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a > click away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 17:58:51 2008 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:58:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Without Sight Of Sea Message-ID: <3457ce860801240428y145d8e14reb199f731d23956b@mail.gmail.com> Without Sight Of Sea >From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 5, Issue 2, Dated Jan 19, 2008 Recent policy proposals have Kerala's fisherfolk alarmed at the threat to their livelihood. Is the government callously carving out a tourist attraction from tsunami relief funds? KA SHAJI Thiruvananthapuram and Kollam THREE YEARS after the second largest earthquake yet recorded tore through the Indian Ocean, relief funds for lakhs of tsunami survivors across southern India have still to reach their intended destination. However, the Kerala tourism and harbour departments are all set to divert a good four crore from the Centrally-assisted Tsunami Rehabilitation Project to constructing a 500m artificial reef at Kovalam. The project, under the departments' joint aegis, has the approval of the Thiruvananthapuram-based Centre for Earth Science Studies, and the contract for the reef has been awarded to a New Zealandbased marine consultancy firm, ASR Amalgamates Solutions and Research Ltd. Apart from the promise that the reef will open up several aquatic attractions at the world-renowned holiday destination, tourism department officials justify their dipping into rehabilitation money with the claim that the reef will help break waves, mitigating the potential impact of another tsunami. The area encircled by the reef will also double up as a breeding ground for fish, the officials say. Fish workers, however, are unwilling to believe their claims. "This is just another case of tsunami funds being diverted for the benefit of tourism lobby," says T. Peter, president of the Kerala Swatantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation. Far from benefiting the fishing community, the reef will ultimately mean the wiping out of its livelihood, feel Kollam district's fisherfolk. Community-based fishing in the area will be curtailed and at least 500 people will lose their livelihood. As for the breeding ground, it will end up reserved for "sport fishing" for tourists and will be of little use to the local fish worker, says Peter. Kollam's fish workers also want to see a careful, evidence-based risk assessment of the potential economic and environmental implications of artificial reefs. Even if the reef is able to break waves, its potential impact on neighbouring villages such as Vizhingam and Panathura needs to be assessed. Similar manmade barriers have been known to divert waves to areas where they had never previously gone, with damaging effect. Steps constructed into the sea at Shangumugham beach in Thiruvananthapuram resulted in waves being so diverted that a nearby road was totally wiped out. "This is the latest among several attempts at every level to misuse tsunami rehabilitation funds and turn them to the tourism industry instead," says G. Anton Gomez, president of the National Union of Fishermen. According to him, the misappropriation of funds points to the influence the tourism and real estate mafias have gained over policy decisions as a result of which, fishermen are being forced to relocate to areas that have no access to the sea and little scope for fish processing. Tsunami rehabilitation seems to be the tourism lobby's latest cash cow. Fishermen in tsunami-affected regions across South India are being forced to sign documents stating that they are relinquishing lands they own close to the sea. If they don't comply, they are denied government-provided relief material. The move is ostensibly aimed at shifting them out of "danger zones" — once they are "safely" removed to the interiors, where their traditional livelihood is rendered meaningless, the "danger zones" are handed over to the real estate lobbies. FISHERFOLK ALSO feel themselves to be under another, more wide-ranging threat from the government in the shape of the Coastal Zone Management (CZM) notification, soon expected to replace the existing Coastal Regulation Zone (CRZ) notification of 1991. With the shift to the "management" system, it is feared that entire fishing communities will be forced out of the coastal areas to make way for unbridled construction in the name of "development". "What can there possibly be in common between high-flying industrialists promoting Special Economic Zones (SEZs) and fishing communities eking out a living along the country's coastline? Nothing," declares Gilbert Rodrigo, a fish workers' leader from Tamil Nadu. "But it is inevitable that they will be clubbed together when SEZs find a mention in the Coastal Zone Management draft notification, whereas fisherfolk do not merit even two words." The proposed CZM notification is reportedly based on the findings of a 13-member expert committee chaired by Dr MS Swaminathan, a scientist of international repute who is also known as the architect of the Green Revolution. As far as the fishing community is concerned, what the draft proposes is not very different from the effects of a ravaging cyclone. According to Charles George, president of the Kerala Matsya Thozhilali Aikyavedi, the notification will ultimately result in the massive displacement of the coastal population. More than two crore traditional fish-workers, living in 400 coastal blocks over the 10 coastal states, will lose the right to their traditional livelihood. "The CRZ notification of 1991 includes livelihood protection for traditional fisherpeople, with fishing activities allowed within the 500m high tide line. Only they had this right. But now, with the CZM notification, this right has been taken away," says T. Peter. Sensing danger, fishworkers across the country have launched a fight against government moves that are putting their livelihoods at risk. Strategies were thrashed out last week at a national meet of fisherfolk at Uvari coastal village in Tamil Nadu's Nagapattinam district, one of the worst affected in the December 2004 tsunami. Not only that, fishing community representatives from eight coastal states and experts on coastal management joined hands to formulate a draft of a Bill on protecting the traditional rights of fishworkers over the seas and the coastlines. "We need a comprehensive legislation along the lines of the one recently enacted to protect the traditional rights of tribals over forests. No fishworker can survive without his sea and his shore and a rights Bill for fishworkers is inevitable. Where should we go to dry our nets and to process fish if the coast is handed over to tourism lobbies and real estate mafias?" asks Rodrigo, who convened the Uvari meeting. The draft's other demands include: an assured supply of fuel at subsidised rates to fisher folk, an end to joint ventures with foreign fishing entities, a ban on foreign fishing vessels in Indian waters, the establishment of a fisheries ministry at the Centre, the withdrawal of the controversial Aquaculture Authority Bill, the implementation of the CRZ notification of 1991 and an end to legislative attempts to dilute the CRZ notification. Another key demand is for Scheduled Tribe status for fishermen. According to Harekrishna Debnath, chairperson of National Fishermen Forum and general secretary of the World Forum of Fisher People, a "do or die" agitation has begun. "Like land reforms, India needs aquatic reforms to give fishworkers the right to own and manage water bodies, from seas to reservoirs, apart from owning and managing fishing implements, boats, nets and fish distribution. In addition, there should be a proper fisheries management policy to include the fishing community in efforts for the conservation of resources and marine ecology and to tackle increasing corporatisation,'' says Debnath. He also warns that no notification can survive without acknowledging the existence of the 10 million human beings along Indian shores whose only lifeline is the sea. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.keralafishworkers.org http://www.alakal.net From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Jan 24 17:58:28 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:28:28 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. In-Reply-To: References: <518230.19941.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Asit, Laal Salaam, Fully agreeable thoughts, but what is the perception and definition of "communal" ? For me, dividing the society first as hindus, muslims and on the other faiths is communal. Also then because hindu society is elephantine, lack of good governance has left out many badly affected, so dividing the hindu society on caste basis is communal. Because in this game, the society is divided on castes and communes , communes of vote banks are made, to extend favours to the elite, foisted leaders, rest all become dalits without good governance and a society of unequals is thus created to rule with fear or favour to few castes at the cost of entire society. Would you please respond to this ? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Asit asitreds Date: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:05 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > this pioson we and them is dangorous why cant we behave as indians > and focus > on serious issues like unemloyment poverty etc communalism is a > dangourosgameplan to divide poor working indians and deflect > srious issue inthe end > helping the rulers and the exploiters nothing different from british > colonisers > asit > > On Jan 20, 2008 6:23 PM, chanchal malviya > wrote: > > > How many bombs you have thrown.. > > Ask this to them... Not us... > > We are reacting.. They are acting... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Krishna Chaithanya > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:19:37 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > > > Violence can be stopped only with violent means.Then peace will > be on the > > society....!? > > > > We bomb them > > and they bomb us > > and we bomb them > > and they bomb us > > together we bomb us > > then who is left to bomb...? > > > > KC > > > > > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:33:09 +0500 > > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > > > Hi, true, it for too long hindus have been tolerent leading to a > > sarcastic comment that they are cowards, may be Nehru was coward > when India > > was divided for his greed,may be Krishna menon loved chinese > vaginas more > > than indian ones, but now it is time that hindu understood the > value of > > SAMA, Dana, BHEDHA are over, dandam dashagunam bhaveth. Violence > can be > > stopped only with violent means.Then peace will be on the society. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: chanchal malviya > > > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:24 am > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > To: Javed , reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > It is time for Hindus to rise now... > > > > And no dicussion or virtual communities can stop it... > > > > > > > > Swami Vivekanand said - India have enough of religion.. > > > > And it is time now to say this to Christian and Muslims who > force> > > conversions the same thing.. > > > > If Sanskrit is the mother of all languages, Hinduism is the > mother> > > of all Religions... (But two religions have in > particular always > > > > learnt to abuse their mother(Hinduism) - Islam and > Christianity)...> > > It is time now to stop the nation from > producing more Kashmirs... > > > > It is time now to stop the non-Independent Religious India... > > > > > > > > So go on my dear friends as much as you like to abuse Hindus.. > > > > It hardly matters now.. > > > > > > > > Ramayan is proving to be a reality, Mahabharat is a reality.. > > > > History will also change.. > > > > It is Hindus that have taught peace to the world.. but to do > that> > > again, the two attackers have to be checked now.. > > > > People are doing that.. And will do that.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: Javed > > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 6:00:16 PM > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Islam, nationhood etc. > > > > > > > > India's Islam > > > > by Arun Nair > > > > > > > > Firstly, I must apologise if this article smacks of an impolite > > > > urgency and prescriptive-ness. I mean not to be arrogant, > but as > > > > someone addressing you on a matter of deep concern to us > all, I felt > > > > that there was little room for ceremonial apologies before every > > > > sentence. Also, as an Indian middle-class Hindu who grew up > in the > > > > Babri-masjid 90s, it is easy for me to say some of the > things I say > > > > here. > > > > > > > > Secondly, I address you, the reader, as an Indian citizen, > not as a > > > > saintly Kabir or Gandhi preaching love for humanity. Our > collective> > > interests are being threatened by communal forces > from within and > > > > without. WE MUST ACT. We must not merely lament about our > respective> > > versions of helplessnesses and others' faults. We > are free today > > > > because India's greatest generation shook off the ghosts that > > > > bedevilled them, and took action to protect our interests. I > implore> > > you to continue that legacy. > > > > > > > > Thirdly, while I will go into what inmy opinion are highly > plausible> > > theories of Indian nationhood and nationalism, my > primary aim here is > > > > not to write any treatise on politics or sociology, but to > protect our > > > > rights to belong equally to India – our common ancestral > land – as > > > > Indians, and as free, dignified humans. > > > > > > > > Fourthly, my ideas will be presented largely based on first > > > > principles, also known as common-sense. > > > > > > > > My thesis is this: India must boldly assert its claim on Islamic > > > > civilisation in the subcontinent. That is the key to end our > communal> > > woes. > > > > > > > > This does not mean that India must become Islamic, or that > Indian> > > Muslims must be somehow Hinduised. The idea, instead, > is to campaign > > > > relentlessly for India's Islamic civilisational authenticity. > > > > > > > > In the Indian psyche, Pakistan stands for Islam. Sadly for > us and > > > > admittedly in a weaker form, Islam is also synonymous with > Pakistan> > > and everything Pakistani. This wouldn't have been so > bad if Pakistan > > > > wasn't, well, un-Indian. We must use every tool at our > disposal as a > > > > people to destroy the entrenched idea of Pakistani ownership of > > > > subcontinental Islam from within India. More importantly, > this idea > > > > must be attacked from without it, because that is where it > originates.> > > > > > > Our chief weapon to eliminate Islam-Pakistan hyphenation > from the > > > > subcontinent will be an authentic claim: the centre of Islamic > > > > civilisation in South Asia has always been undivided India, > and after > > > > partition, India is its natural primary heir. The fact that > a few > > > > million Muslims left India during partition to settle in our > erstwhile> > > outlying provinces doesn't change this. Neither > does the fact that the > > > > Indian people chose a progressive, secular, democratic > polity for > > > > their republic. > > > > > > > > In our minds and in the world's view, subcontinental Islam > is under > > > > Pakistani occupation. The historical Indo-centric nature of > > > > subcontinental Islam should be used to throw off this > psychological> > > yoke. I urge Indians to rally together once > again as our greatest > > > > generation did to protect our collective interests as the > people of > > > > India. I urge friends of India all over the world to join > us. Both in > > > > terms of geography and spirit, Islam in the subcontinent that > > > > coexisted and flourished alongside Indic cultures, has > always been > > > > more Indian than Pakistani. If any single country represents > > > > subcontinental Islam as it historically was, it is India. Not > > > > Pakistan. > > > > > > > > India's Mughals. India's Qutub Minar, Gol Gumaz, and Taj Mahal. > > > > India's Kabir. India's Tipu Sultan, Shah Jahan, Akbar, and, > why not, > > > > Aurangazeb. India's Urdu. India's Ghalib and Khusro. India's > Delhi,> > > Lucknow, Mysore, Hyderabad, Malabar, and Agra. > > > > > > > > Good history has to be deliberately written > > > > > > > > The people of India inherited thousands of years of history and > > > > associated baggage that we didn't really ask for. > > > > > > > > Keep in mind though that history is not a dead object - it is > > > > unfurling even as you read this. We may not be able to > change what > > > > happened in India 200 years ago. But 200 years from now when > people> > > look back, they will see the Indian history that our > generation wrote. > > > > It becomes then our duty, both as Indians and as sensible > humans, to > > > > write it well. > > > > > > > > It is a great privilege to deliberately be able to write a > part of > > > > something grand like the history of India. The first > generation of > > > > Indians who did a coordinated job of writing our history was > the one > > > > that won us our independence – our "freedom-generation". > They could > > > > have attempted to write their Indian chapter any way they > wanted to. > > > > We could have had a dark, China-style communism, for > instance. But, > > > > given the Indian context, the freedom-generation chose the most > > > > egalitarian, elegant, and humanist theme they could come up > with: a > > > > secular, liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, that > takes its > > > > strength from its inherent pluralism and its inheritance of > one of > > > > mankind's greatest civilisations. > > > > > > > > The freedom-generation's legacy for us is the deliberate and > > > > intelligent manner in which they forged an Indian national > identity.> > > Thanks to their efforts, our nationality is a solid > concept. An Indian > > > > from Karnataka has a robust nationalistic bond with Indians > say from > > > > Punjab, Gujarat, Assam, or Delhi. Regardless of what > languages we > > > > speak, we all recognise Marathi, Tamil, Bengali and Telugu > as Indian > > > > languages – ancestral assets that all Indians collectively own. > > > > > > > > It is a mistake, however, to think that the nation-building > task they > > > > began is complete. Indian nationalism is not an idea frozen > in time, > > > > but an evolving one. We, the successors of India's freedom- > generation,> > > must exercise our prerogative to define its finer > contours and bring > > > > in new ideas to enrich it. Furthermore, we have an > obligation to both > > > > our founding fathers and India's posterity to do this while > being true > > > > to our quintessential Indian-ness, the just, egalitarian > nature of our > > > > country as embodied in our constitution. > > > > > > > > Given that India's situation is not as pressing as it once > was, new > > > > nationalist leaders – giants of the stature of Mahatma > Gandhi, Khan > > > > Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Subhash Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh, > Jawaharlal> > > Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad or Vallabhai Patel – may be > difficult to > > > > emerge. There is no need to though. We succeeded them, and > we must > > > > take this task upon ourselves. The freedom-generation > watches over us > > > > in the form of our fraternity as Indians which they moulded > at a great > > > > cost, and our constitution. > > > > > > > > Indian Nationalism - the idea of Indian brotherhood > > > > > > > > Amidst all this noisy consternation of Taslima Nasrin, Babri- > masjid,> > > BJP-Congress etc., its easy to lose sight of the > really big pictures. > > > > Consider, for instance, this question: what really is the > essence of > > > > Indian nationalism? Why do we all feel so closely tied to India > > > > and to > > > > each other? > > > > > > > > My answer is that, to put it simply, without the land we > call India, > > > > Indians either have no identity, or very anaemic identities. All > > > > Indians share this same curious relation to India. > > > > When we are born to the same human mother, we are brothers. Our > > > > constitution formed by our freedom-generation explicitly asserts > > > > fraternity among the Indian people. Fraternity – > brotherhood. In what > > > > sense are we brothers? > > > > > > > > Indians are brothers in the sense that the motherland that > birthed my > > > > identity, also birthed yours. India is our ancestral land, > and we > > > > should be proud of everything associated with it. Everything > in India, > > > > its religions, its good and its bad, its languages, its > glories and > > > > struggles, its rivers, its emperors, its heroes and villains, > > > > everything – is intricately weaved into our consciousnesses > of who we > > > > are, where we come from, what our place in this world is, > and how > > > > other humans see us. Without that identity, we are crippled. > > > > > > > > Ours is no ordinary brotherhood. Indian people didn't come > into being > > > > merely a few centuries ago. We are an ancient civilisation, > and what > > > > we have is a civlisational brotherhood – a bond arising from > all of > > > > our belonging to the civilisation that unfolded in the same > land,> > > India. That brotherhood was formally declared through > the constitution > > > > in 1949, but it existed much before that. Before our greatest > > > > generation gave it a concrete wording in the 20th century, > it was well > > > > moulded in the crucible that is our land, in the fire of the > previous> > > several dozen, if not more, centuries. > > > > > > > > Every country of the world has stories that define their > national> > > essences. What is the most essential feature of Indian > > > > nationalism? It > > > > is our Indian identity – our being tied to India, and our > > > > civilisational brotherhood to each other in being bonded so. All > > > > Indians, regardless of their religion or language, has this > bond with > > > > India and with each other. > > > > Indians must pause for a while and think why our anthem's > going over > > > > our landmarks is so emotive. Or why Hindu-Muslim-Sikh-Christian > > > > insignia are powerful. Or why merely thinking of our > history, or our > > > > Kerala, Karnataka, Maharashtra, UP, Punjab and Bengal moves > all of us > > > > equally. > > > > > > > > It's because they remind us of our organic ties to India, > and the > > > > brotherhood that we have with each other. This natural bond > given to > > > > us by our glorious and at times bloody history is important. > If we > > > > don't uphold this bond with the ferocity that our greatest > generation> > > did, if we don't use it to protect our common > interests, our country > > > > will remain weak. > > > > > > > > Our country's nature > > > > > > > > What is the nature of our country? What does it mean for > something> > > to be Indian? > > > > For one, if all of us Indians could get together today and > declare in > > > > one voice that India stands for certain values, then that > would be an > > > > authoritative statement. India is what Indians say it is. > If, say, the > > > > people of the then-Indian civilisation – Hindus, Muslims, > Christians,> > > Buddhists, Sikhs, and Jains – had made such a > statement 400 years ago > > > > and preserved its spirit through centuries, that would have > probably> > > have been one of the greatest Indian texts. > > > > > > > > If you will recall, a very similar event actually did happen > in 1949, > > > > when the founding fathers of the Indian republic adopted, > enacted, and > > > > gave to ourselves - the sovereign people of India - our > constitution.> > > The preamble reads, > > > > > > > > "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to > constitute India > > > > into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and > to secure > > > > to all its citizens: > > > > JUSTICE, social, economic and political; > > > > LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; > > > > EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among > them all > > > > FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the > unity and > > > > integrity of the Nation. > > > > IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of > November, 1949, > > > > do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION." > > > > > > > > In an absolute sense, the values of justice, liberty, and > equality> > > have an intuitive appeal to all humans everywhere. > However, the > > > > formidable authority of our constitution comes from the > crushed but > > > > proud people who paid a very high price for our right to > live as > > > > equals and as dignified humans in India. We must take their > word for > > > > what India is – they must have known and dreamt quite a bit > about it. > > > > > > > > India's greatest generation definitely realised that divisivism, > > > > self-doubt, and other demons from our past would haunt the > republic> > > they formed. Which is why the constitution is > important. It helps us > > > > protect our country from ourselves. > > > > > > > > The Constitution. Indian Nationalism. How we will defend India. > > > > > > > > Those who doubt the moral power of our freedom-generation, our > > > > constitutional ethos, and Indian nationalism need only look at > > > > Pakistan, which renounced all these in its attempts not to > be seen as > > > > Indian. Pakistan's leaders, in trying to defend their > divisve national > > > > philosophy, forced the most horrible bankruptcy on its people. > > > > > > > > Rather than using Indian nationalism and the constitution to > tackle> > > our communal issues, I am appalled at the general > trend to merely > > > > lament that India is on its way to being declared an non- > secular state > > > > - the hundreds of millions of Indians fully intent on > preventing this > > > > notwithstanding. > > > > > > > > Pakistan-style Islamism, Ummah-isation of Hinduism, > alienation of > > > > Indian Muslims > > > > > > > > There are three major trends in India today that are > relevant to > > > > our topic. > > > > > > > > Firstly, India has very serious conflicts of interest with > Pakistan.> > > We have gone to war with that country several > times. Its society has > > > > issues with radicalisation and a general religious > orthodoxy. Its > > > > regimes have relentlesslyattacked India's internal fault- > lines over > > > > the past few decades in the name of Islam. Tens of thousands > of Indian > > > > soldiers have died defending our country against them. It is > > > > distinctly un-Indian and anti-Indian. > > > > > > > > Secondly, Hinduism is, for the lack of a better word, Ummah- > ising, and > > > > this at times takes horrifyingly militant forms. I, given my > personal> > > biases, am all for Hindu solidarity and abolishing > pseudo-secularism. > > > > However, an argument for Hindu-solidarity should not be > allowed to > > > > take the form of an un-Indian religionalism that goes > against the very > > > > spirit of India. > > > > > > > > Thirdly, Indian Muslims feel alienated from their own > country. In > > > > India, Pakistan is synonymous with Islam. Unfortunately, > Islam is also > > > > weakly synonymous with Pakistan. This has significantly > undermined> > > Indian Muslims' political standing in India vis-a- > vis their fellow > > > > citizens. > > > > > > > > The havoc all this has wreaked on our society must not be > ignored.> > > India was home to one of humanity's greatest Islamic > cultures for well > > > > over 1000 years. It is not, by any means, a dead part of our > > > > culture - > > > > nearly 160 million Indians are Muslims, several national > icons are > > > > Muslims, mosques and Islamic architecture litter the > country, and > > > > Muslim holidays are shared by all. And yet, to a lot of > Indians, Islam > > > > doesn't feel Indian, but Pakistani. Despite their respective > religious> > > majorities, it is odd that Buddhism doesn't feel > Sri Lankan, or > > > > Hinduism itself, Nepali. > > > > > > > > The partition of India and secular India's deprivation of > its Islamic > > > > authenticity > > > > > > > > Has anyone thought what has actually happened here? Why is > it that in > > > > India, an ancient civilisational land which has a unique Islamic > > > > culture just like Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, Islam is seen as > somehow> > > foreign? That is not because of Islam's being > inconsistent with India > > > > – 1000 years and more of history and our combined freedom > struggle> > > should have proven this by now. > > > > > > > > During partition, founders of Pakistan expropriated the > subcontinent's> > > Islamic identity for defining their nation, > Pakistan. Pakistan's > > > > struggle to keep its ideology alive has robbed us of our Islamic > > > > authenticity. India's secular nature not-withstanding, the > ardour with > > > > which Pakistan argued itsideology and pushed its exclusivist > national> > > philosophy within the larger Islamic community > ensured that it gained > > > > some traction in the Indian society. Pakistan's military > conflicts> > > with "Hindu" India only amplified this. > > > > > > > > It only takes a few of decades of intense activity for a new > Zeitgeist> > > to take root in a society. Consider denazification > of Germany, China's > > > > turn into capitalism, and India's own economic > liberalisation. 30 > > > > years – that is all it takes for a young generation to grow > up shaped > > > > by a pervasive ideology. > > > > > > > > Though quite smaller than India, Pakistan is by no means a tiny > > > > nation. It is the world's 6th most populous country, one of > its major > > > > economies, and a prominent player during the cold war. One > cannot find > > > > fault with it - Pakistan had to defend its national > philosophy. It has > > > > expended a tremendous amount of national effort over the > last 60 years > > > > in achieving a strong association between subcontinental > Islam and > > > > itself. > > > > > > > > They have succeeded splendidly. Islam in the subcontinent > today is > > > > seen as prominently Pakistani and India's secular fabric > warped by > > > > that perception. Pakistan is an Islamic nation - this > somehow gives > > > > them a stronger claim on everything Islamic in the > subcontinent. The > > > > world simply does not recognise India's Islamic > authenticity, and > > > > neither do many Indians within. India continues to be associated > > > > primarily with Hinduism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, but not Islam. > > > > > > > > Does religious brotherhood entirely negate the organic bonds > a human > > > > has to his ancestral land and its history, and to his fellow > humans> > > who share the same bonds as him? I don't really know. > What I do know > > > > is that this is not the principle on which the Indian > republic was > > > > founded, and its definitely not an Indian value. Religious > supremacism> > > and breaking up of Indian people are un-Indian > philosophies. It goes > > > > against the very spirit of our freedom struggle, > nationalism, and our > > > > constitution. > > > > > > > > Indians must remember that new Pakistani generations do not > even have > > > > the same right to speak for India's Muslims that their earlier > > > > generations might have had. Indian democracy has proven this > > > > unnecessary anyway. > > > > > > > > Indo-Pak culture-drift and attempts at an unnatural bonhomie > > > > > > > > There is a delusion among the political class and Indian > people that > > > > our shared past can be used to achieve friendly relations > between> > > India and Pakistan. My view is that in doing so, we > are only > > > > reinforcing the internal Islam-Pakistan hyphenation. > > > > > > > > When historical developments asunder a people, over a period > of time > > > > the newly formed groups drift increasingly farther from one > another.> > > Once upon time, Myanmar and Sri Lanka were part of > India, just like > > > > Pakistan and Bangladesh. Afghanistan was part of several Indian > > > > empires. Today, though at a national level we have very cordial > > > > relations, they are distinctly unfamiliar to us. > > > > > > > > Such a natural drift has definitely taken place between > India and > > > > Pakistan. The strongest bond between us that keeps us in > each others' > > > > national memories is not anything positive that we share, > but the > > > > acrid legacy of partition. It's hard for me as an Indian, for > > > > instance, to imagine such an Islamism taking hold of > Pakistan if it > > > > were under Akbar's rule. That is, if it were under genuinely > > > > Indian-style Islamic rule. > > > > > > > > I am not suggesting we should actively pursue enmity with > Pakistan or > > > > vilify it. However, its being clumped together with Indian > Muslims is > > > > simply not healthy for India. What has Pakistan's > 'leadership' of > > > > subcontinental Muslims, its advocacy of religious =3E supremacism within, > > > > and its enmity with India effectively accomplished? It has > robbed> > > India of its genuine Islamic authenticity in the > world's eyes, and > > > > caused non-Muslim Indians to reject the culture of an un- > Indian enemy. > > > > Pakistan has highlighted Indian Muslims' being Islamic and > > > =3E consistently de-emphasized their being Indian. > > > > > > > > Pursuing an unnatural bonhomie with Pakistan and stressing our > > > > similarities with them will only weaken our case for our > differences,> > > which are very real. To uphold our national > interest, we must assert > > > > and amplify these differences. > > > > > > > > Replace Islam-Pakistan hyphenation with Islam-India > hyphenation in the > > > > subcontinent > > > > > > > > I urge Indians to spearhead a change of perception of Islam > in the > > > > subcontinent. Anything that prevents Indian Muslims' fully > asserting> > > their claim on India as Indian citizens is against > the national > > > > interest. The strong association in India between > subcontinental Islam > > > > and the present day un-Indian Pakistan must go. > > > > > > > > It is tempting to claim that all South Asian countries share > Islamic> > > civilization equally. It may be polite and civil to > do so, and it may > > > > even have some historical merit, but it's a weak claim for our > > > > purposes. It doesn't have the necessary boldness and self- > conviction> > > to be effective. It also doesn't forcefully argue > for India's Islamic > > > > authenticity. Our aim is to end Islam-Pakistan hyphenation > for the > > > > welfare of a billion humans, not to be fair observers of > history. We > > > > must hence push the strongest nationalistic claim possible: > Islam in > > > > the subcontinent is Indian, and it always has been. > > > > > > > > Indian Islam never 'went' anywhere – it is alive and well > amidst us. > > > > Our nationalism and constitution are guarantees that it will > > > > thrive if > > > > Pakistan would let go of it. When the world thinks of > Hinduism in > > > > South Asia, it thinks of India. Sikhism, it thinks of India. > Buddhism,> > > India. When it thinks of Islam in South Asia, it > must think of India. > > > > Everyone in the subcontinent will be better off. Everyone. > > > > > > > > The idea that Islam in the subcontinent is primarily Indian > can gain > > > > currency only through a concerted nationalist campaign. No > apologies> > > should be made for such a movement. No one need be > convinced of its > > > > proponents' "patriotism". The obvious worthiness of the > cause, its > > > > truth, and its urgency are justifications enough. > > > > > > > > What ideas might such a campaign seek to make current? > > > > > > > > The countries in our region share an intertwined, messy > history. We > > > > have a lot in common - languages, religions, culture, quirks > - all > > > > part of our common and colourful heritage. > > > > > > > > However, if our historical and religious assets must be divided > > > > amongst us, then the worthiest inheritor of Islamic heritage > in the > > > > subcontinent can only be India. Not Pakistan, not > Bangladesh, not Sri > > > > Lanka, not Myanmar, not Nepal. India is the only nation that > has been > > > > true to the historical spirit of Indian Islam – that of > flourishing> > > alongside other Indic faiths in India. > > > > > > > > Slay our demons ourselves > > > > > > > > Has it ever struck you that in our country, we have a vicious > > > > circularity of the following sort: we feel dismayed that the > > > > country/political class/leadership has done nothing for us; > a form of > > > > apathy and resignation sets in; the country/political > class/leadership> > > continues to do nothing; we feel > increasingly more dismayed. > > > > > > > > We are a democracy. We individually must act. Things won't > happen> > > if we don't. > > > > I urge Indians to assert India's secularism and nationalism > to fight > > > > alienation of the Muslim community from Indian mainstream. > This battle > > > > is the easier one to win – there are hundreds of millions of > > > > reasonable Indians, the Indian constitution, the liberal > press, the > > > > legacy of our freedom-generation, and truth and justice on > our side. > > > > > > > > I also urge Indians to fight Pakistani supremacy of > subcontinental> > > Islam from the outside. That is the root of > all our problems. That is > > > > the key battle in India's war against communalism. We must > learn to > > > > say, "Thanks, but no thanks. I understand what you mean, but > this is > > > > not really true" to anyone who stresses commonalities of any > sort in > > > > the subcontinent. > > > > > > > > Who will go first? > > > > > > > > Based on the concept of ownership of our destiny, what are > the answers > > > > to these questions: > > > > > > > > "But how can non-Muslims claim that Islam in the > subcontinent is > > > > Indian when it is represented by Pakistan and Indian Muslims > > > > themselves imply so?" > > > > > > > > "How can Indian Muslims make the Indo-centric claim when > there is a > > > > genuine sense of their alienation in India and rest of > Indian society > > > > accuses them of siding with Pakistan. We cannot move against > Pakstani> > > Muslims. There is a lot in common between us." > > > > > > > > I don't know! I am definitely going, in my own way. That I > know. I > > > > will not ever treat any Indian by as automatically allied > with a > > > > foreign, inimical power. I will continue making people aware > of the > > > > need to end the subcontinental Islam-Pakistan association > and replace > > > > it with Islam-India. > > > > > > > > We shall NOT vilify. We shall have faith. > > > > > > > > Indians should stop vilifying each other. Not because it > would be > > > > saintly to do so, but because it only weakens our unity. > > > > > > > > Our nationalism and our constitution are solid stuff. Our > greatest> > > generation did their job well. If we must challenge > our fellow > > > > Indians, invoke these instruments. Face with stead-fast > stoicism any > > > > slurs, any accusations of you being an anti-Indian Muslim or a > > > > communal Hindutvawadi. Let the diatribe die down. Repeat your > > > > arguments invoking our nationalism, constitution, and your > reasoning> > > again. Do not ask anyone to 'prove' his or her > patriotism. It's > > > > demeaning to do so. > > > > > > > > Satyameva Jayate – truth alone triumphs. If you are right, > you will > > > > win. Have faith in our country and in every Indians' > goodness and > > > > genuine attachment to their land. > > > > > > > > Augmenting India's ideological basis > > > > > > > > Earlier I mentioned that our work on Indian nationhood is > not a frozen > > > > process, but a continuing one. We can and must correct any > earlier> > > mistakes that continue to torment India's communal > harmony.> > > > > > > If the greatest challenge the freedom-generation faced was > ending the > > > > British rule and forming a stable republic, the greatest > challenge> > > before us is to take back leadership of > subcontinental Islam from > > > > Pakistan. Our challenge is to do this without sacrificing > India's> > > secular nature. > > > > > > > > To tackle our new communal challenges in the 21st century, I > propose> > > the following: > > > > 1. Secularism will continue to remain the Indian union's lynch > > > > pin. It > > > > should not, however, require any particular religious > group's giving > > > > up their right to assert religious solidarity. We should > genuinely> > > address any concerns about hypocrisy in the name of > secularism.> > > > > > > 2. India is a mature concept, and we should actively use it > to tackle > > > > the challenges before us. Secularism is an integral part of our > > > > nationhood and a historically irreversible development. It > follows> > > that religionalism – wherever it is practised – is > distinctly> > > un-Indian. Within India, it is also anti-Indian in > the sense that they > > > > weaken India and goes against its spirit. > > > > > > > > 3. The natural heir to Islamic civilisation in the > subcontinent is > > > > India. Subcontinental Islam has always been an Indian > phenomenon.> > > Pakistan's oft-reinforced association with Indian > Muslims must be > > > > destroyed. > > > > > > > > 4. India's brotherhood with its neighbours is dying. Soon > there will > > > > be an Indian generation which doesn't have a single Indian > born before > > > > partition. Every single human in the subcontinent would have > been born > > > > in the countries as they existed after partition. The continuing > > > > attempts to maintain an unnatural bonhomie with India's hostile > > > > neighbours is not a tenable project - Pakistan has moved too > far away > > > > from what was once India. > > > > > > > > Indian Muslims. India's Islam. > > > > > > > > A shockingly large amount of our national energy is wasted in > > > > countering the effects of Islam-Pakistan hyphenation in the > > > > subcontinent. > > > > > > > > The solution is simple. Reclaim the part of Indian identity > that was > > > > robbed of us some 60 years back. If India is Hindu, then for > similar> > > reasons, it is also Buddhist, Sikh, Christian - and > Islamic. Purported > > > > authority over sub-continental Islam by other entities in the > > > > subcontinent is an outrageous farce that must be ended right > away.> > > > > > > There is no obligation to do this meekly. India doesn't have > > > > merely a > > > > substantial claim or merely an equal claim. It simply has > more right > > > > to subcontinental Islamic heritage than anyone else by an > > > > overwhelmingly large margin, period. We must use it for our > national> > > well-being. > > > > > > > > Who can assert subcontinental Islam's Indian nature boldly, > loudly,> > > without an iota of self-doubt or hesitation? Who > needs this to be done > > > > most urgently? Who suffers from a deprivation of their right > to belong > > > > to India the most? The Hindus? Sikhs? Buddhists? Christians? > Jains?> > > Clearly not. Who else? > > > > > > > > The Indian Muslims. The others are left distinctly poorer > and their > > > > country's communal harmony stressed, but their Indian > genuineness is > > > > unquestioned within India and the world over. There is not going > > > > to be > > > > an un-Indian leader-nation for India's Sikhs, Hindus, Jains, > Buddhists> > > and Christians in our neighbourhood any time soon. > > > > > > > > http://indianmuslims.in/indias-islam/ > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with> > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking> for last minute shopping deals? > > > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping_________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with> > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > list > > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=220 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________> Be a better friend, newshound, and > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From itsnishant at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 18:13:05 2008 From: itsnishant at gmail.com (Nishant Shah) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:13:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] what is to be done? In-Reply-To: References: <48c2916d0801212324m25c66ab3p5bf16ace5ec90864@mail.gmail.com> <47986FF9.1030807@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Radhika, I wish you would not take all conversations personally, unless cited in the text. I, for one, did not have you in my mind when I was talking about the camps. More specifically, it didn't matter, when I was writing the mail, as to where the camps are and what they are saying. As somebody who has been a moonlighting techie and researcher on technology, I was merely trying to think of a constructive way of dealing with a problem that open cyberspatial forums often face - two or sometimes more camps, using the freedom of the space to abuse and hurl insults, hijacking other threads or responses for their own personal good, and exhibiting Trollish behaviour that often borders on acute schizophrenia. In both the suggestions I gave, the idea was that if there is tagging, than a diverse reader list can become more manageable. I am not here to believe that everything that is written on the list is of equal interest to every single reader. The tags help us manage that. Also, if a thread about women registering protest in manipur turns out to be a discussion on what is the national, who is the national, and how muslims are all terrorists, I think, as a reader, one would have better discernment about what one wants to read and what one doesn't. A tendency to press on the 'Reply' button on an email, without changing the subject, leads to a lot of clutter in one's very limited internet time and resources. Thus, a tagging system, warns (like the warnings on cigarette packets), that some information might not be suitable for the users who are not looking for it. In the second option, I was suggesting a flagging and abuse as a suggestion because it allows the users to steer clear of certain kind of conversations. If you claim that you do not consider the origin of the responses on the list, I will take it at face value. I would also be extremely interested in how you can be enamoured by the pseudonymous structures of cyberspatial forums so as to alienate the writing from the writer to such an extent, that like in Joycean worlds, the writer is only sitting somewhere far away, paring her finger nails. I, on the other hand, and I am sure there are many others like me, do look at the pseudonymous (sometimes personal) identities of the writers. It allows us to make more sensitive arguments and sympathetic readings and also make us aware of where they are coming from. In which case, it would be interesting to see how these IDs are reflected. Also add to the fact that if we are talking about a certain distributed communities, then it is a good idea to see how people might be reacting to people rather than what they are saying. It might actually cut down on the number of mails that are simply well disguised (and in most cases, not even disguised) personal hate war. Fight your battles elsewhere (the personal kinds) and make space for more arguments - that is the rationale that I was promoting. I am not sure if it fits everybody or not. This was a constructive way out rather than opting for single person moderation or banning or censorship. That was the issue of this mail. That is what I will stick to talking about. You are most welcome to draw from your own Bengali free speech experience. But surely you are not suggesting even there that the speech was not mediated and free of technological tools. I was suggesting a way by which technology enables human discernment. You have turned it into a question of technology deciding for human beings. They are interesting formulations. And maybe we should shift it to another thread and talk more. Thanks for your intervention, and for forcing me to clarify my stand point, warmly Nishant. P.S. I would be grateful if you do not attribute me with extra H's at the end of my name. It just makes minding my aiches so much more of a pain! On Jan 24, 2008 5:25 PM, wrote: > Dear Nishanth, > > thanks for illuminating the minds and hearts of members on the readers > list. For Tapas, the debate is to win, for me debate and discussion is to > exchange thoughts and review them, if found useful for fruitful life use > them, but the very fact that open mind is absent in many is the cause of > concern. > > If any one does not tow the line, the typical response is to shun the > thoughts ? Well, for me I like to read and mull over each of the thoughts > without bothering much about from which id the thought has originated, but I > may or may not agree with those thoughts, I respect the thoughts. Without > even reading the thought and total rejection of any thoughts shows only the > typical "intellectual" mindset of the leftist idealogy where as long as you > are yes men you are with them or otherwise you are not theirs, such become > others. ? > When intellectuals in Bengal protested against the crude behaviour of the > cadres, initial response was to use filters, with voters,. Guns and bullets > and violence, were not effective filters but power of thoughts is such that > good thoughts will rise to awaken the intellectual at any point of time and > make him/her think, as whether the continued support to the wrongs by > handful thinkers in the politburo is right or incorrect. > > So filters of the technology or the non response will not help as good > thoughts for humanity always tug at the conscious mind. > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Nishant Shah > Date: Thursday, January 24, 2008 5:01 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] what is to be done? > To: Tapas Ray > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Thanks to the power of mail filtering, I, like Tapas also have > > been marking > > mails from these ids as 'suspicious' and filing them only for > > later reading > > - to indeed, have the perverse pleasure, the same as scratching at > > a scab. > > > > I just wanted to clarify that the tagging system does not require a > > moderator at all. I was suggesting that the users be forced to > > define the > > tags to their mails before they are acceptable to the reader list. > > The idea, > > as I said, was to help users remember what the discussion was > > about - there > > are so many hijackings in sight - and also to warn the readers > > that these > > mails might be dealing with material that they might offensive or > > problematic. The tagging can be introduced as an automated option > > ratherthan requiring manual intervention from somebody acting as > > moderator on the > > Sarai list. > > > > The question of abuse, again, is not about revoking rights or > > about banning > > somebody, or even making a judgement call on somebody through a > > centralisedstructure. It is simply a way by which IDs which are > > constantly found > > abusive by members of the community, can be flagged as such- more > > like a > > caution sign to the rest of the readers. I was suggesting both > > these options > > as technical solutions which would require miminal human > > intervention from a > > 'Moderator' who might other wise need therapy for sifting through > > the amount > > of Troll mail that flies through the list :) > > > > cheers > > Nishant > > > > On Jan 24, 2008 4:31 PM, Tapas Ray wrote: > > > > > I agree with Aarti and Nishant. I have been using filters quite > > > effectively against these individuals, whose crudity entertained me > > > initially in a perverse sort of way, but became tiresome after a > > while.> There is no need for anyone to engage with them, since it > > is now clear > > > that their objective is not to take part in rational debate but to > > > destroy this space by swamping it with hate speech. (The reason, I > > > think, is that they know they lack the ability to engage in reasoned > > > debate, and cannot hope to "win" it.) > > > > > > Mail filters are effective and can be put in place by anyone in > > a few > > > minutes. Nishant's suggestion about tagging and reporting abuse > > is also > > > good, but having such a system would mean someone, acting as > > moderator,> having to spend part of his/her day because of the > > actions of these > > > individuals - and I do not think they deserve so much importance. > > > > > > Tapas > > > > > > > > > > > > Nishant Shah wrote: > > > > Hi Arti, All, > > > > I have been a silent lurker in these days of virulent > > invective and > > > > hate-speech that have unfolded on the reader-list. I haven't > > been silent > > > > because I had nothing to say, or that I was not provoked. I > > haven't been > > > > silent because I did not feel equally angered, sometimes to > > such an > > > extent > > > > that I had to walk away from the computer and swear for the > > nth time > > > that I > > > > will just unsubscribe from the reader's list. I have been > > silent because > > > I > > > > do not think I have the vocabulary to counter arguments that > > are based > > > on > > > > nothing more than personal prejudices, or the resources to > > deal with > > > emails > > > > that read a little more than poison pen. > > > > > > > > However, there is also another reason why I prefer to be > > silent, as > > > missiles > > > > are hurled from one end to the other, one camp offering peace > > flags and > > > > reasons, the other camp packaging the same in mails that > > resemble hand > > > made > > > > grenades used in violent spaces. Out of long habit of dwelling on > > > various > > > > digital forms, I have realised that the behaviour (read as > > writing) of > > > some > > > > of the members who have come to haunt this particular digital > > platform,> can > > > > only be classified as 'Troll'. ( > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll). > > > > And as the classic motto goes, 'Do Not Feed The Troll.' There > > have been > > > many > > > > discussions on the reader-list about questions of censorship, > > > moderation, > > > > facilitation and so on. Each time a particularly venomous > > bunch of > > > people > > > > descend upon the reader-list, probably abusing their office > > time and > > > > professional resources to spew horror on to the unwary people, > > we talk > > > about > > > > the possibilities of lags, of delays, of moderation and of > > down-right > > > > banning. However, all these, as we have have often observed, > > will lead > > > to > > > > nowhere. Death, assassination and banning on the interwebz is > > > unfortunately, > > > > only notional, symbolic. There are no finalities to either of > > them and > > > the > > > > banning or the moderation of one ID would only lead to the Trolls > > > spinning > > > > of many more IDs which would then come back for their pound > > and a half > > > of > > > > flesh. > > > > > > > > Hence, IMHO, the best thing to do is to stop FEEDING the > > TROLLS. I > > > second > > > > your request that there are so many other more fruitful ways > > of engaging > > > > with so many different topics, that it is almost criminal (in the > > > non-legal > > > > sense of the word) to waste time and resources in trying to > > convince the > > > > digital equivalent of a black box with six pre-fed scripts and no > > > semblance > > > > of intelligence - artificial or otherwise. We might, next, as > > well start > > > > arguing with characters in a novel, parts in a movie, > > components of a > > > > website. Instead, it is best to just move on. > > > > > > > > Having said that, I also realise that it is sometimes > > difficult to move > > > on. > > > > More often than not, Trolls specialise in putting their finger > > on the > > > exact > > > > right spot that triggers our buttons and induce instantaneous > > > combustion. > > > > And hence, there will always be people replying to these > > Flames that > > > come > > > > our way; unfortunately thinking all the time that they are doing > > > > fire-fighting, when actually they are just adding fuel to the > > Troll> Fire. > > > > One technical measure that I can think of - and this takes > > away the > > > > unenviable job of a list moderator - is to implement a tagging > > system in > > > > place for all mails that come to the reader list. This at > > least, allows > > > > people to tag their mails - sometimes the titles are > > misleading and > > > provide > > > > no warning for what is to come - so that when a mail arrives, the > > > readers > > > > can see the tags and decide for themselves whether they want > > to read the > > > > mail or not. > > > > > > > > The second suggestion I have might be more open for discussion > > - Most > > > user > > > > based free spaces of interaction in the cyberspace have > > developed a > > > policy > > > > of reactive resistance to what they look upon as an abuse of > > the space > > > or > > > > its resources. Under such a policy, you do not ban users from > > saying> what > > > > they want to say, in whichever way they want to say it, but > > instead> allow > > > > other users to 'Report Abuse' against a particular user. The > > Terms of > > > what > > > > constitutes Abuse can often be generic but also be very > > specific in > > > nature > > > > and can have a large consultation from the people who have any > > stake in > > > it. > > > > Reporting Abuse eventually needs some sort of a moderator who > > either> > resolves the problem or simply marks the charged person > > as guilty of > > > abuse. > > > > Many times, the reason for this marking is also made public. This > > > ensures > > > > that some IDs which are seen as destructive or Trollish, can > > appear> > differently in the conversations, flagged as potentially > > abusive in > > > nature. > > > > This also helps in new readers or readers who have more > > invested in the > > > > questions, to stay away from the responses that these IDs > > might be > > > > generating. > > > > > > > > I hope both these suggestions sound feasible. I would be > > available for > > > > further communication or planning out of the architectural > > integration> of > > > > such sort to the Reader's List. I am glad for your > > intervention and > > > pleased > > > > to see that instead of wasting time in responding to the > > Trolls, we are > > > now > > > > looking upon them as symptomatic to a certain kind of problem that > > > emerges > > > > in 'free speech and free space' and trying to constructively > > deal with > > > them. > > > > > > > > Un-lurking after a long time, > > > > Nishant > > > > On Jan 22, 2008 12:54 PM, Aarti Sethi > > wrote:> > > > > > > > > >> Dear all, > > > >> > > > >> It is becoming more and more difficult to read the writing on the > > > >> reader-list. From misogyny, the likes of which I do not > > recall ever > > > seeing > > > >> before, to threats of physical violence against women's > > bodies, to > > > >> right-wing Hindu vitriol, what is going on? It is actually > > now painful > > > to > > > >> have to see 37 responses on a thread which deserves not even one, > > > because > > > >> people are valiantly trying to talk rationally, reason with, > > respond to > > > >> people who should just be told to shut up. I know its very > > hard to keep > > > >> quite and let things go, especially when we have exemplars like > > > chanchal > > > >> and > > > >> vedavati on this list. But we are all just getting fatigued > > now with > > > this > > > >> relentless barrage of invective and hate that the list is > > constantly> >> subjected to. > > > >> > > > >> So now I am asking for solutions. What is to be done?, as > > Lenin asked > > > many > > > >> years ago. What is to be done to save the reader-list? Can we > > have a > > > >> discussion on this? Clearly responding to them in any > > rational fashion > > > is > > > >> not a solution. And I frankly have no interest or hope that > > anything> any > > > >> of > > > >> us can say will make any difference. This is not about me > > refusing to > > > have > > > >> a > > > >> conversation, because the fact is, they do not want to have a > > > conversation > > > >> at all. And i think that is quite clear from the writing on > > the list in > > > >> the > > > >> past two weeks. > > > >> > > > >> This is a request to to please stop engaging with them. Lets > > ignore> them, > > > >> lets not respond to them, lets please just mark all their > > mails so they > > > go > > > >> into our collective trash folders, lets talk about other things, > > > anything. > > > >> They can then keep talking to each other about the wonderful > > Hindu> nation > > > >> they will build ad nauseum. But we dont have to listen to > > this. And of > > > >> course they will claim this as a victory etc etc. How we cant > > respond> to > > > >> them, how we have nothing to say to their brilliant > > argumentation. I > > > can > > > >> already predict the responses to this mail. But I have no trouble > > > saying > > > >> that they are right. I am limited by my own linguistic > > incapacity to > > > >> respond > > > >> to writing which is so poisonous. > > > >> > > > >> And a final qualification about my use of "us" and "them" and any > > > >> questions > > > >> regarding othering, insularity, assumption of moral > > superiority etc > > > etc. I > > > >> can unabashedly say that I have absolutely no problems > > creating this > > > >> binary > > > >> divide. I have no issues saying that these are people I want > > to have > > > >> nothing > > > >> to do with, as far as I am concerned they are unethical and > > violent and > > > I > > > >> dont see why they should have any purchase on my time at all. > > There are > > > >> far > > > >> more interesting things being said and there are interesting > > people> saying > > > >> them who I would much rather read, than the reams and reams > > of boring > > > >> hateful drivel that constantly issue from the likes of chanchal.. > > > >> > > > >> If anyone else has any other ideas please lets hear them. And > > if anyone > > > >> has > > > >> forgotten how to make filters so you can trash the trash, > > here is a > > > link > > > >> to > > > >> Vivek's very instructive mail on the matter: > > > >> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007- > > November/011005.html> >> > > > >> best > > > >> Aarti > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > >> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> List archive: > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Nishant Shah > > Ph.D. Student, CSCS, Bangalore. > > Project Manager, COMAT, Bangalore. > > # 0-9740074884 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > -- Nishant Shah Ph.D. Student, CSCS, Bangalore. Project Manager, COMAT, Bangalore. # 0-9740074884 From pkray11 at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 18:33:30 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:33:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Prof Prabhat Patnaik's aticle on the socialist path of development and WB Govt. Message-ID: <98f331e00801240503v36e6f27fx641795abeba3e4b9@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, The recent remarks by CPI(M) leaders on the socialist path of development and Bengal Government's policies have provided one more opportunity to the media and the anti-left elements to attack the party and the Bengal Govt. I would like to share an article by Prof Prabhat Patnaik on the issue ( http://www.pragoti.org/pragoti/news_detail.php?news_id=519). Regards, Prakash The CPI(M) and the Building of Capitalism --Prabhat Patnaik It could be just wishful thinking; or it could be a malicious attempt to spread confusion about the CPI(M); or it could be sheer ignorance about the rudiments of the CPI(M)'s theoretical understanding among the current generation of journalists, unlike those of an earlier generation; but, whatever the reason, the inference drawn by several of them from a remark of Jyoti Basu about having to work within the capitalist system, a remark which in itself was neither novel nor exceptionable, that the CPI(M) had abandoned socialism, was really quite breath-taking. But since this remark has given rise to some confusion even among Party sympathizers and well-wishers, it is worth making an effort to clarify certain basic issues. Those claiming on the basis of the West Bengal government's acceptance of private investment (which Jyoti Basu's remark had defended) that the CPI(M) has abandoned socialism, are wrong on at least three counts: they do not distinguish between socialist and people's democratic revolutions; they do not distinguish between working within a system and working not to transcend the system; and they do not distinguish between the Party and Party-led governments. Let us look at each of these distinctions seriatim. A Communist Party is founded with the objective of achieving socialism. Its raison d'etre is to struggle for the achievement of this objective. But the achievement of socialism requires a social revolution which entails the substitution of private ownership of the means of production by social ownership, and of the bourgeois State that defends such private ownership by an alternative proletarian State which is a very different kind of State from all hitherto existing States, in the sense that it must "wither away" over a period of time. Since the conditions for such a social revolution take time to mature, all Communist Parties must work within the capitalist system for long stretches of time, bringing theory to the working class and helping it through its struggles to prepare itself for the historic task of leading this revolution. All this however presupposes that the democratic revolution which the bourgeoisie had led historically led, has been more or less completed, so that a socialist revolution has come on the agenda. But in societies where the bourgeoisie appears late on the scene, it proves singularly incapable of completing the democratic revolution itself, and instead makes common cause with feudal and pre-bourgeois elements, since it is afraid that any attack on pre-bourgeois property could well encompass an attack on bourgeois property as well. This compromise which was evident in the case of pre-revolutionary Russia incorporates, in the context of third world societies, a compromise with imperialism as well. The anti-feudal and anti-imperialist tasks of the democratic revolution in such societies therefore cannot be completed by the bourgeoisie which is historically unequal to the task, but devolve upon the proletariat which must carry the democratic revolution to completion. Its key ally in this democratic revolution is of course the broad mass of the peasantry. This democratic revolution led by the working class in alliance with the peasantry is called the "people's democratic revolution" which, according to the CPI(M)'s programme is the historic task immediately on the agenda. The people's democratic revolution is a rich and complex concept. Since it entails a carrying forward of the democratic revolution, i.e. a completion by the proletariat of the task that the bourgeoisie historically had undertaken, its objective is to remove the fetters upon the most thorough-going bourgeois development; it creates therefore the conditions for the most vigorous and the most broad-based capitalist development. At the same time, since it is the proletariat that leads the people's democratic revolution, it is not content only to create the conditions for the most thorough-going capitalist development, and then sit back and watch capitalism unfold in its full vigour; rather, it unleashes a historical process where the people's democratic revolution leads on to the socialist revolution. Once the proletariat has acquired a "subject" role, it does not withdraw from that role; rather it uses that role to ensure that the people's democratic revolution leads on to the socialist revolution over a more or less protracted period of time. Two very important points have to be noted here: first, while the people's democratic revolution creates conditions for capitalist development, the nature of this capitalist development is different from the capitalist development that would have occurred otherwise. "Capitalist development" is not a homogeneous term. There is capitalism and capitalism. What was developing in colonial India was capitalism; what the bourgeoisie leading the freedom struggle wanted was capitalism; what the Nehruvian development strategy promoted was capitalism; what neo-liberalism is promoting today is capitalism; and what the working class will create the conditions for, through the people's democratic revolution, is also capitalism. So, to say that the people's democratic revolution is meant to create conditions for the development of capitalism is only a half-truth; it is meant to create the conditions for the development of capitalism that is different from the capitalism that would have developed otherwise; it is meant to develop a capitalism that is the most thorough-going and broad-based, a capitalism that is based inter alia on radical land reforms and a widening of the mass market. Secondly, the struggle for creating the conditions for the most thorough-going and broad-based capitalist development, which the proletariat has to lead in conditions like ours, does not become an end in itself; it leads on to the struggle for socialism. The continuity of this struggle was expressed by Lenin in his Two Tactics in the following words. "The proletariat must carry the democratic revolution to completion, allying to itself the mass of the peasantry in order to crush the autocracy's resistance by force and paralyse the bourgeoisie's instability. The proletariat must accomplish the socialist revolution, allying to itself the mass of the semi-proletarian elements of the population, so as to crush the bourgeoisie's resistance by force and paralyse the instability of the peasantry and the petty bourgeoisie." Precisely because the consummation of the democratic revolution, the most thorough-going attempt at building capitalism, cannot occur in societies like ours under the aegis of the bourgeoisie, precisely because it can be carried out only under the aegis of the proletariat, the struggle for such development becomes integrated with the struggle for socialism, leads on to the struggle for socialism. It follows then that the conception of a Communist Party being always concerned exclusively and immediately with the ushering in of socialism is theoretically erroneous. Let us now move to the second error of those claiming that the CPI(M) has abandoned socialism. While the people's democratic revolution is on the historic agenda in our country, in the sense that in its absence the democratic revolution would not only not be carried forward, but would actually witness retrogression (such as for instance the reversal of land reforms, the attenuation of bourgeois democracy, and an even greater integration with imperialism), it is by no means imminent. The Communists in other words have to work within the capitalist system even as they work for the maturing of the conditions for the people's democratic revolution, let alone a socialist revolution. And this work involves not just work in trade unions, among the peasantry, on the various mass fronts, and in the parliamentary opposition, but also as leaders of state governments in the three states where the Party is powerful. Work in the state governments is no different from work elsewhere, though the terrain of work is novel and the conditions of work constrained by explicit and specific provisions of the Constitution: its aim must also be to change the correlation of class forces, to prepare the conditions for the people's democratic revolution by fighting to carry forward the democratic advance of the people and against all slide-backs, retrogression, and counter-revolutionary rolling back of this advance. In the case of the state governments led by the Party, this requires a correct policy towards the development of the productive forces. This policy too must be informed by the objective of creating the conditions for the people's democratic revolution, forging the class alliance required for it, raising the level of class consciousness, and strengthening the proletariat as a revolutionary force. Stagnation in the development of the productive forces in the Left-ruled states in comparison to others, i.e. stagnation that is not systemic but specific to such states, can damage this objective by restricting employment generation, and alienating the people from the Party (which indeed is one reason why the capitalists used deliberately to avoid investing in these states earlier); on the other hand, any development that, even while creating employment in some sectors, destroys employment in others, including in agriculture through the alteration of the land-use pattern, can also have a damaging effect. Likewise, while boycott by capitalists, which amounts to an economic blockade of Left-ruled states, can damage the Party and hence the cause of the democratic revolution, any acceding to the demands of the capitalists that results in a hiatus between the basic classes (i.e. workers and peasants) and the Party can have an equally deleterious effect. Avoiding these deleterious consequences, striking a correct path based on an all-round appreciation of the situation, making use of investments by capitalists even while not succumbing to their excessive demands, by taking advantage of competition among them, and by building up the countervailing force of government investment, is not always easy. The exact strategy in each case has to be specifically determined. But the basic criterion for deciding on the correct course of action must be: does it contribute towards an advance of the democratic revolution? While applying this criterion however it is clear that there is no reason for shunning capitalist investment, since within the capitalist system in which the Party-led governments are functioning, the investible resources are by definition concentrated in the hands of the capitalists. Of course, such capitalist investment must be treated with circumspection; it must not be allowed to thwart the advance towards a people's democratic revolution; and for that purpose the Party-led state governments must have a counterweight against the excessive demands of capital; but shunning such investment altogether can also be equally damaging. Such an understanding clearly does not entail an abandonment of socialism, or an acceptance of capitalism. It only recognizes the fact that the struggle for carrying forward the democratic revolution, towards its ultimate goal of socialism, has to be fought on many fronts, in complex terrains, and in conditions not of our choosing. While it is true that in coping with this complexity, the ultimate objective must not be lost sight of, a lack of recognition of this complexity makes the ultimate objective even more elusive in practice. The critics of the Party are also wrong on a third count, quite apart from their lack of understanding of the concept of the people's democratic revolution, and also of the complexity of the work needed to create the conditions for it. And this relates to a lack of distinction between the government and the Party. Party-led governments are not identical with the Party. The Party embodies a theory; a government per se does not, even when led by the Party. The Party works for a revolution; it works through many channels including through heading state governments. But just as there is a difference between the Party and its front organizations, there is a difference between the Party and the governments it leads, as indeed between these governments and the Party's front organizations. These governments are formed in accordance with the provisions of a Constitution which in turn was framed as a scaffolding for the structure of a State led by the bourgeoisie. Their practical positions on a number of issues cannot always be expected to be co-terminus with what the Party's theoretical understanding dictates. To infer from the practical policies of the state governments which are an empirical matter, the theoretical positions of the Party, is an inversion of reason. Negotiating the complexities of the Indian revolution requires serious and intense debates and discussions, but a precondition for that is to get certain basic issues out of the way. (http://www.pragoti.org/pragoti/news_detail.php?news_id=519) From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 19:19:25 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:49:25 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Tag & Bag, No It Doesn't Work Message-ID: Nishant wrote: >using the freedom of the space to abuse and hurl insults >hijacking other threads or responses for their own personal good Also: 1. Continuing to post nonstop on the same topic again and again (almost like a password-crack spider program on autopilot) even when no one is responding. 2. The mind-numbing level of Indo-centrism of these troll attacks, which have drowned out all other topics, regions, countries, or anything else. I wonder why any non-Indian should even bother to be on Sarai any more, but that was not the initial focus based on which we were invited/joined. >tagging >flagging The only issue with filtering is that it doesn't work if we are subscribed to Sarai in digest mode. In that case the sender is always readerlist and then we have to go through all the posts in the Digest. radhikarajen replied: > Without even reading the thought and total rejection of any thoughts shows only the typical "intellectual" mindset of the leftist idealogy where as long as you are yes men you are with them or otherwise you are not theirs, such become others. ? But the situation is not comparable. No one is asking for yes men or to be "with us". The discussion is about a group of 5-8 individuals who are posting nonstop at absurd volumes and drowning out all other discussions/topics on the list, and in fact forcing people to leave the mailing list. With the world awash in mailing lists, and the average person maybe subscribed to at least 10 mailing lists, if one list suddenly starts generating 20+ posts a day and 19 of those are on a debate that you are either not interested in, or not able to participate in, or just choosing to opt out of with all respect for the subject, and still the barrage continues day after day, then many people will in the end choose to hit "unsubscribe" and that would be a shame for the community of Sarai. In 1992, in the green vax terminal days, there used to be one usenet bulletin board called soc.culture.bangladesh. The gathering of people in terms of class, background, location was unprecedented and I've never found a similar community since. Anyway, sometime in 1996, an acrimonious battle broke out about the ongoing occupation of Chittagong Hill Tracts in Bangladesh and the debate rose to such nasty levels that in the end the scb community disintegrated. As Rana Dasgupta pointed out at the beginning of this flame war, took years to build up, but takes only a moment to destroy. From jeebesh at sarai.net Thu Jan 24 19:51:53 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh Bagchi) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:21:53 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] An old saying Message-ID: <13BBB349-24A6-43EC-91E4-20A6BB074CA0@sarai.net> Dear all, Here is an old saying. "For a Hunter to be enjoying his Hunt, he needs the Hunted to run in fear or attack in aggression. He cannot enjoy the Hunt if the Hunted do not accept to behave in this given way." Maybe the Hunted found many other ways, than this given ways. Like the small fish in the sea. Tired of being hunted down by the big fishes, they decided to fly out and became birds. warmly Jeebesh From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 19:56:43 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:56:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] what is to be done? In-Reply-To: References: <48c2916d0801212324m25c66ab3p5bf16ace5ec90864@mail.gmail.com> <47986FF9.1030807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0801240626y7332fb6v713a915bf89a7c1a@mail.gmail.com> This is not a response to all the suggestions that have come regarding what can be done individually - thanks all, and lets keep talking about this some more... Just a quick response to Prakash who expressed shock and horror at my advocating free speech on the one hand, and filtering on the other, and then offered pious platitudes about democracy. Thanks comrade, but as usual you have failed to read my mail with care. At no point do i ask that mails be banned, censored, or moderated. Nowhere have I asked Sarai as an institution or the moderator to step in. I am not even asking these individuals to desist from expressing views which I clearly abhor. I have asked only that just as everyone is entitled to say what they wish to, I am entitled to hear what I wish to. This is no way against an absolute free speech principle. Nor is saying that in my opinion some posts do not deserve to be responded to against a free speech principle, or against reason, or against democracy. And I would urge you to please take a quick look at the censorship record of the party you belong to before you teach anyone else any lessons regarding their commitment to free speech. best as always Aarti On Jan 24, 2008 6:13 PM, Nishant Shah wrote: > Dear Radhika, > I wish you would not take all conversations personally, unless cited in > the > text. I, for one, did not have you in my mind when I was talking about the > camps. More specifically, it didn't matter, when I was writing the mail, > as > to where the camps are and what they are saying. As somebody who has been > a > moonlighting techie and researcher on technology, I was merely trying to > think of a constructive way of dealing with a problem that open > cyberspatial > forums often face - two or sometimes more camps, using the freedom of the > space to abuse and hurl insults, hijacking other threads or responses for > their own personal good, and exhibiting Trollish behaviour that often > borders on acute schizophrenia. > > In both the suggestions I gave, the idea was that if there is tagging, > than > a diverse reader list can become more manageable. I am not here to believe > that everything that is written on the list is of equal interest to every > single reader. The tags help us manage that. Also, if a thread about women > registering protest in manipur turns out to be a discussion on what is the > national, who is the national, and how muslims are all terrorists, I > think, > as a reader, one would have better discernment about what one wants to > read > and what one doesn't. A tendency to press on the 'Reply' button on an > email, > without changing the subject, leads to a lot of clutter in one's very > limited internet time and resources. Thus, a tagging system, warns (like > the > warnings on cigarette packets), that some information might not be > suitable > for the users who are not looking for it. > > In the second option, I was suggesting a flagging and abuse as a > suggestion > because it allows the users to steer clear of certain kind of > conversations. > If you claim that you do not consider the origin of the responses on the > list, I will take it at face value. I would also be extremely interested > in > how you can be enamoured by the pseudonymous structures of cyberspatial > forums so as to alienate the writing from the writer to such an extent, > that > like in Joycean worlds, the writer is only sitting somewhere far away, > paring her finger nails. I, on the other hand, and I am sure there are > many > others like me, do look at the pseudonymous (sometimes personal) > identities > of the writers. It allows us to make more sensitive arguments and > sympathetic readings and also make us aware of where they are coming from. > In which case, it would be interesting to see how these IDs are reflected. > Also add to the fact that if we are talking about a certain distributed > communities, then it is a good idea to see how people might be reacting to > people rather than what they are saying. It might actually cut down on the > number of mails that are simply well disguised (and in most cases, not > even > disguised) personal hate war. Fight your battles elsewhere (the personal > kinds) and make space for more arguments - that is the rationale that I > was > promoting. I am not sure if it fits everybody or not. > > This was a constructive way out rather than opting for single person > moderation or banning or censorship. That was the issue of this mail. That > is what I will stick to talking about. You are most welcome to draw from > your own Bengali free speech experience. But surely you are not suggesting > even there that the speech was not mediated and free of technological > tools. > I was suggesting a way by which technology enables human discernment. You > have turned it into a question of technology deciding for human beings. > They > are interesting formulations. And maybe we should shift it to another > thread > and talk more. > > Thanks for your intervention, and for forcing me to clarify my stand > point, > warmly > Nishant. > P.S. I would be grateful if you do not attribute me with extra H's at the > end of my name. It just makes minding my aiches so much more of a pain! > > On Jan 24, 2008 5:25 PM, wrote: > > > Dear Nishanth, > > > > thanks for illuminating the minds and hearts of members on the readers > > list. For Tapas, the debate is to win, for me debate and discussion is > to > > exchange thoughts and review them, if found useful for fruitful life use > > them, but the very fact that open mind is absent in many is the cause > of > > concern. > > > > If any one does not tow the line, the typical response is to shun > the > > thoughts ? Well, for me I like to read and mull over each of the > thoughts > > without bothering much about from which id the thought has originated, > but I > > may or may not agree with those thoughts, I respect the thoughts. > Without > > even reading the thought and total rejection of any thoughts shows only > the > > typical "intellectual" mindset of the leftist idealogy where as long as > you > > are yes men you are with them or otherwise you are not theirs, such > become > > others. ? > > When intellectuals in Bengal protested against the crude behaviour of > the > > cadres, initial response was to use filters, with voters,. Guns and > bullets > > and violence, were not effective filters but power of thoughts is such > that > > good thoughts will rise to awaken the intellectual at any point of time > and > > make him/her think, as whether the continued support to the wrongs by > > handful thinkers in the politburo is right or incorrect. > > > > So filters of the technology or the non response will not help as > good > > thoughts for humanity always tug at the conscious mind. > > > > Regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Nishant Shah > > Date: Thursday, January 24, 2008 5:01 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] what is to be done? > > To: Tapas Ray > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > Thanks to the power of mail filtering, I, like Tapas also have > > > been marking > > > mails from these ids as 'suspicious' and filing them only for > > > later reading > > > - to indeed, have the perverse pleasure, the same as scratching at > > > a scab. > > > > > > I just wanted to clarify that the tagging system does not require a > > > moderator at all. I was suggesting that the users be forced to > > > define the > > > tags to their mails before they are acceptable to the reader list. > > > The idea, > > > as I said, was to help users remember what the discussion was > > > about - there > > > are so many hijackings in sight - and also to warn the readers > > > that these > > > mails might be dealing with material that they might offensive or > > > problematic. The tagging can be introduced as an automated option > > > ratherthan requiring manual intervention from somebody acting as > > > moderator on the > > > Sarai list. > > > > > > The question of abuse, again, is not about revoking rights or > > > about banning > > > somebody, or even making a judgement call on somebody through a > > > centralisedstructure. It is simply a way by which IDs which are > > > constantly found > > > abusive by members of the community, can be flagged as such- more > > > like a > > > caution sign to the rest of the readers. I was suggesting both > > > these options > > > as technical solutions which would require miminal human > > > intervention from a > > > 'Moderator' who might other wise need therapy for sifting through > > > the amount > > > of Troll mail that flies through the list :) > > > > > > cheers > > > Nishant > > > > > > On Jan 24, 2008 4:31 PM, Tapas Ray wrote: > > > > > > > I agree with Aarti and Nishant. I have been using filters quite > > > > effectively against these individuals, whose crudity entertained me > > > > initially in a perverse sort of way, but became tiresome after a > > > while.> There is no need for anyone to engage with them, since it > > > is now clear > > > > that their objective is not to take part in rational debate but to > > > > destroy this space by swamping it with hate speech. (The reason, I > > > > think, is that they know they lack the ability to engage in reasoned > > > > debate, and cannot hope to "win" it.) > > > > > > > > Mail filters are effective and can be put in place by anyone in > > > a few > > > > minutes. Nishant's suggestion about tagging and reporting abuse > > > is also > > > > good, but having such a system would mean someone, acting as > > > moderator,> having to spend part of his/her day because of the > > > actions of these > > > > individuals - and I do not think they deserve so much importance. > > > > > > > > Tapas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nishant Shah wrote: > > > > > Hi Arti, All, > > > > > I have been a silent lurker in these days of virulent > > > invective and > > > > > hate-speech that have unfolded on the reader-list. I haven't > > > been silent > > > > > because I had nothing to say, or that I was not provoked. I > > > haven't been > > > > > silent because I did not feel equally angered, sometimes to > > > such an > > > > extent > > > > > that I had to walk away from the computer and swear for the > > > nth time > > > > that I > > > > > will just unsubscribe from the reader's list. I have been > > > silent because > > > > I > > > > > do not think I have the vocabulary to counter arguments that > > > are based > > > > on > > > > > nothing more than personal prejudices, or the resources to > > > deal with > > > > emails > > > > > that read a little more than poison pen. > > > > > > > > > > However, there is also another reason why I prefer to be > > > silent, as > > > > missiles > > > > > are hurled from one end to the other, one camp offering peace > > > flags and > > > > > reasons, the other camp packaging the same in mails that > > > resemble hand > > > > made > > > > > grenades used in violent spaces. Out of long habit of dwelling on > > > > various > > > > > digital forms, I have realised that the behaviour (read as > > > writing) of > > > > some > > > > > of the members who have come to haunt this particular digital > > > platform,> can > > > > > only be classified as 'Troll'. ( > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll). > > > > > And as the classic motto goes, 'Do Not Feed The Troll.' There > > > have been > > > > many > > > > > discussions on the reader-list about questions of censorship, > > > > moderation, > > > > > facilitation and so on. Each time a particularly venomous > > > bunch of > > > > people > > > > > descend upon the reader-list, probably abusing their office > > > time and > > > > > professional resources to spew horror on to the unwary people, > > > we talk > > > > about > > > > > the possibilities of lags, of delays, of moderation and of > > > down-right > > > > > banning. However, all these, as we have have often observed, > > > will lead > > > > to > > > > > nowhere. Death, assassination and banning on the interwebz is > > > > unfortunately, > > > > > only notional, symbolic. There are no finalities to either of > > > them and > > > > the > > > > > banning or the moderation of one ID would only lead to the Trolls > > > > spinning > > > > > of many more IDs which would then come back for their pound > > > and a half > > > > of > > > > > flesh. > > > > > > > > > > Hence, IMHO, the best thing to do is to stop FEEDING the > > > TROLLS. I > > > > second > > > > > your request that there are so many other more fruitful ways > > > of engaging > > > > > with so many different topics, that it is almost criminal (in the > > > > non-legal > > > > > sense of the word) to waste time and resources in trying to > > > convince the > > > > > digital equivalent of a black box with six pre-fed scripts and no > > > > semblance > > > > > of intelligence - artificial or otherwise. We might, next, as > > > well start > > > > > arguing with characters in a novel, parts in a movie, > > > components of a > > > > > website. Instead, it is best to just move on. > > > > > > > > > > Having said that, I also realise that it is sometimes > > > difficult to move > > > > on. > > > > > More often than not, Trolls specialise in putting their finger > > > on the > > > > exact > > > > > right spot that triggers our buttons and induce instantaneous > > > > combustion. > > > > > And hence, there will always be people replying to these > > > Flames that > > > > come > > > > > our way; unfortunately thinking all the time that they are doing > > > > > fire-fighting, when actually they are just adding fuel to the > > > Troll> Fire. > > > > > One technical measure that I can think of - and this takes > > > away the > > > > > unenviable job of a list moderator - is to implement a tagging > > > system in > > > > > place for all mails that come to the reader list. This at > > > least, allows > > > > > people to tag their mails - sometimes the titles are > > > misleading and > > > > provide > > > > > no warning for what is to come - so that when a mail arrives, the > > > > readers > > > > > can see the tags and decide for themselves whether they want > > > to read the > > > > > mail or not. > > > > > > > > > > The second suggestion I have might be more open for discussion > > > - Most > > > > user > > > > > based free spaces of interaction in the cyberspace have > > > developed a > > > > policy > > > > > of reactive resistance to what they look upon as an abuse of > > > the space > > > > or > > > > > its resources. Under such a policy, you do not ban users from > > > saying> what > > > > > they want to say, in whichever way they want to say it, but > > > instead> allow > > > > > other users to 'Report Abuse' against a particular user. The > > > Terms of > > > > what > > > > > constitutes Abuse can often be generic but also be very > > > specific in > > > > nature > > > > > and can have a large consultation from the people who have any > > > stake in > > > > it. > > > > > Reporting Abuse eventually needs some sort of a moderator who > > > either> > resolves the problem or simply marks the charged person > > > as guilty of > > > > abuse. > > > > > Many times, the reason for this marking is also made public. This > > > > ensures > > > > > that some IDs which are seen as destructive or Trollish, can > > > appear> > differently in the conversations, flagged as potentially > > > abusive in > > > > nature. > > > > > This also helps in new readers or readers who have more > > > invested in the > > > > > questions, to stay away from the responses that these IDs > > > might be > > > > > generating. > > > > > > > > > > I hope both these suggestions sound feasible. I would be > > > available for > > > > > further communication or planning out of the architectural > > > integration> of > > > > > such sort to the Reader's List. I am glad for your > > > intervention and > > > > pleased > > > > > to see that instead of wasting time in responding to the > > > Trolls, we are > > > > now > > > > > looking upon them as symptomatic to a certain kind of problem that > > > > emerges > > > > > in 'free speech and free space' and trying to constructively > > > deal with > > > > them. > > > > > > > > > > Un-lurking after a long time, > > > > > Nishant > > > > > On Jan 22, 2008 12:54 PM, Aarti Sethi > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > >> Dear all, > > > > >> > > > > >> It is becoming more and more difficult to read the writing on the > > > > >> reader-list. From misogyny, the likes of which I do not > > > recall ever > > > > seeing > > > > >> before, to threats of physical violence against women's > > > bodies, to > > > > >> right-wing Hindu vitriol, what is going on? It is actually > > > now painful > > > > to > > > > >> have to see 37 responses on a thread which deserves not even one, > > > > because > > > > >> people are valiantly trying to talk rationally, reason with, > > > respond to > > > > >> people who should just be told to shut up. I know its very > > > hard to keep > > > > >> quite and let things go, especially when we have exemplars like > > > > chanchal > > > > >> and > > > > >> vedavati on this list. But we are all just getting fatigued > > > now with > > > > this > > > > >> relentless barrage of invective and hate that the list is > > > constantly> >> subjected to. > > > > >> > > > > >> So now I am asking for solutions. What is to be done?, as > > > Lenin asked > > > > many > > > > >> years ago. What is to be done to save the reader-list? Can we > > > have a > > > > >> discussion on this? Clearly responding to them in any > > > rational fashion > > > > is > > > > >> not a solution. And I frankly have no interest or hope that > > > anything> any > > > > >> of > > > > >> us can say will make any difference. This is not about me > > > refusing to > > > > have > > > > >> a > > > > >> conversation, because the fact is, they do not want to have a > > > > conversation > > > > >> at all. And i think that is quite clear from the writing on > > > the list in > > > > >> the > > > > >> past two weeks. > > > > >> > > > > >> This is a request to to please stop engaging with them. Lets > > > ignore> them, > > > > >> lets not respond to them, lets please just mark all their > > > mails so they > > > > go > > > > >> into our collective trash folders, lets talk about other things, > > > > anything. > > > > >> They can then keep talking to each other about the wonderful > > > Hindu> nation > > > > >> they will build ad nauseum. But we dont have to listen to > > > this. And of > > > > >> course they will claim this as a victory etc etc. How we cant > > > respond> to > > > > >> them, how we have nothing to say to their brilliant > > > argumentation. I > > > > can > > > > >> already predict the responses to this mail. But I have no trouble > > > > saying > > > > >> that they are right. I am limited by my own linguistic > > > incapacity to > > > > >> respond > > > > >> to writing which is so poisonous. > > > > >> > > > > >> And a final qualification about my use of "us" and "them" and any > > > > >> questions > > > > >> regarding othering, insularity, assumption of moral > > > superiority etc > > > > etc. I > > > > >> can unabashedly say that I have absolutely no problems > > > creating this > > > > >> binary > > > > >> divide. I have no issues saying that these are people I want > > > to have > > > > >> nothing > > > > >> to do with, as far as I am concerned they are unethical and > > > violent and > > > > I > > > > >> dont see why they should have any purchase on my time at all. > > > There are > > > > >> far > > > > >> more interesting things being said and there are interesting > > > people> saying > > > > >> them who I would much rather read, than the reams and reams > > > of boring > > > > >> hateful drivel that constantly issue from the likes of chanchal.. > > > > >> > > > > >> If anyone else has any other ideas please lets hear them. And > > > if anyone > > > > >> has > > > > >> forgotten how to make filters so you can trash the trash, > > > here is a > > > > link > > > > >> to > > > > >> Vivek's very instructive mail on the matter: > > > > >> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007- > > > November/011005.html> >> > > > > >> best > > > > >> Aarti > > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > > >> To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > >> List archive: > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Nishant Shah > > > Ph.D. Student, CSCS, Bangalore. > > > Project Manager, COMAT, Bangalore. > > > # 0-9740074884 > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > > > > > -- > Nishant Shah > Ph.D. Student, CSCS, Bangalore. > Project Manager, COMAT, Bangalore. > # 0-9740074884 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 21:34:09 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 08:04:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Tag & Bag, No It Doesn't Work In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <993910.96818.qm@web45502.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> "reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sarai_Programme_at_CSDS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raqs_Media_Collective#Sarai http://www.sarai.net/mailing-lists Just reminding you about SARAI, though my entry here is time-bound(self imposed) and have a specific purpose, just continued to stay as a subscriber. Rana Dasgupta also pointed out that I am the best compared to anybody from any field of interest on SARAI. What about that? For a given Environmental problem and a possible solution, No body responded with a single line and action. Actually in How many countries in the globe does SARAI has its branches? Do all the people from those countries participating in discussions? If so are they participating on their own country behalf or on the behalf of SOUTH ASIA? Forget about Indo-centrism, as WE the resident citizens of the India not Indian subcontinent or United India just explored the originality. How India exploited through invasions and invaders atrocities and the HISTORIANS hard efforts to alter the originality. We observe same mind set people in terms of Tradition, Culture, and Attire with Satire in South Asian people still though there are subtle changes in the south asia with time. SARAI can give mind blowing solutions to the problems through the SOUTH ASIA, it can take up and implement them whole-heartedly with implementable, amicable, feasible solutions. Not just writing something (next day to the incidents took part) and then brushes off the hands just like that. Some of the members of this list doesn't aware of using Wikipedia until I used tat as a ref to support logic and argument. Later they started writing history on Wiki, I don’t wish to reveal their names. There absolutely nothing wrong in condemning dirty writings, wrong people, ugly actions and false propaganda. As there is no censorship and condemnation on sex, vulgarity, abuse about writings and visual links from some subscribers about anything, wat is this going on is absolutely inamecable. One should have heart to accept the grate work and appreciate that. As some body (I don’t wish to write the names once again) accused with whatever EMOTION to demote, there is subtle difference between the writings that WE wrote with total control and that of others exploded with various types of expression and the feeling about anything. Shudda or anybody must observe it and note it down for better UNDERSTANDING. Filter should be there in heart, mind, and mouth and then in body in the mentioned order. Actually there are "voluteer needed" requests appearing on the list. I just advise THOSE ALL... to join in providing "filter" ideas. Best or Worst, Dhatri. Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: Nishant wrote: >using the freedom of the space to abuse and hurl insults >hijacking other threads or responses for their own personal good Also: 1. Continuing to post nonstop on the same topic again and again (almost like a password-crack spider program on autopilot) even when no one is responding. 2. The mind-numbing level of Indo-centrism of these troll attacks, which have drowned out all other topics, regions, countries, or anything else. I wonder why any non-Indian should even bother to be on Sarai any more, but that was not the initial focus based on which we were invited/joined. >tagging >flagging The only issue with filtering is that it doesn't work if we are subscribed to Sarai in digest mode. In that case the sender is always readerlist and then we have to go through all the posts in the Digest. radhikarajen replied: > Without even reading the thought and total rejection of any thoughts shows only the typical "intellectual" mindset of the leftist idealogy where as long as you are yes men you are with them or otherwise you are not theirs, such become others. ? But the situation is not comparable. No one is asking for yes men or to be "with us". The discussion is about a group of 5-8 individuals who are posting nonstop at absurd volumes and drowning out all other discussions/topics on the list, and in fact forcing people to leave the mailing list. With the world awash in mailing lists, and the average person maybe subscribed to at least 10 mailing lists, if one list suddenly starts generating 20+ posts a day and 19 of those are on a debate that you are either not interested in, or not able to participate in, or just choosing to opt out of with all respect for the subject, and still the barrage continues day after day, then many people will in the end choose to hit "unsubscribe" and that would be a shame for the community of Sarai. In 1992, in the green vax terminal days, there used to be one usenet bulletin board called soc.culture.bangladesh. The gathering of people in terms of class, background, location was unprecedented and I've never found a similar community since. Anyway, sometime in 1996, an acrimonious battle broke out about the ongoing occupation of Chittagong Hill Tracts in Bangladesh and the debate rose to such nasty levels that in the end the scb community disintegrated. As Rana Dasgupta pointed out at the beginning of this flame war, took years to build up, but takes only a moment to destroy. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Thu Jan 24 22:11:15 2008 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (S.Fatima) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:41:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] the likes of Kafeel, Sabeel and Haneef... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <447225.90025.qm@web8415.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Radhika Fine, if your definition is "Terrorism = Islam", so be it. Are you happy now? And all those mass-killers who are listed below, were freedon fighters? Good? If you had read the article below carefully, it said that "the British considered Bhagat Singh and other freedom fighters as terrorists". Is this a factually incorrect statement? --- radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > Fathima., > > thanks for the new found definition of terrorists, > for the brave men, who fought for the freedom in > british India. The very nature of justification like > this is expected from the type of secularism that we > are having today in India. Lack of good governance, > bad governance, sticking to power at any cost, even > after the high court rules the illegalality in > election are all the root causes for Indira to > subvert the constitution to keep herself in power, > which led to creation of a bhindranvale, later her > son, acting big brother in the region fed, > encouraged LTTE, and later both paid the price for > it with their lives. > But let us not divert the attention of the > topic about terrorism with this psuedo secular > definition of terrorists. Lack of governance and > protest against such lack of governance does not > make the singur and nandigram residents terrorists, > the religious terrorism is basically found in > abrahamic faiths, never in hindu way of life which > accepts all faith as different ways to same god, > percieved by some as in forms, some without > form...... > > Regards. > > From: "S.Fatima" > Date: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:35 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] the likes of Kafeel, > Sabeel and Haneef... > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, Javed > > Cc: Pawan Durani , chanchal > malviya , reader-list > > > > (Sarai-readers, my apologies for clogging up > space) > > > > Dear Radhika > > I am just reacting to your comment: "All Muslims > are > > not terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims." > > > > Please see the following report from Times of > India, > > Jul 23, 2006: > > > > "Terrorism is not a Muslim monopoly" > > > > SWAMINATHAN S ANKLESARIA AIYAR > > > > "All Muslims may not be terrorists, but all > terrorists > > are Muslims." This comment, frequently heard after > the > > Mumbai bomb blasts implies that terrorism is a > Muslim > > specialty, if not a monopoly. The facts are very > > different. > > > > First, there is nothing new about terrorism. In > 1881, > > anarchists killed the Russian Tsar Alexander II > and 21 > > bystanders. In 1901, anarchists killed US > President > > McKinley as well as King Humbert I of Italy. World > War > > I started in 1914 when anarchists killed Archduke > > Ferdinand of Austria. These terrorist attacks were > not > > Muslim. > > > > Terrorism is generally defined as the killing of > > civilians for political reasons. Going by this > > definition, the British Raj referred to Bhagat > Singh, > > Chandrashekhar Azad and many other Indian freedom > > fighters as terrorists. These were Hindu and Sikh > > rather than Muslim. > > > > Guerrilla fighters from Mao Zedong to Ho Chi Minh > and > > Fidel Castro killed civilians during their > > revolutionary campaigns. They too were called > > terrorists until they triumphed. Nothing Muslim > about > > them. > > > > In Palestine, after World War II, Jewish groups > (the > > Haganah, Irgun and Stern Gang) fought for the > creation > > of a Jewish state, bombing hotels and > installations > > and killing civilians. The British, who then > governed > > Palestine, rightly called these Jewish groups > > terrorists. Many of these terrorists later became > > leaders of independent Israel — Moshe Dayan, > Yitzhak > > Rabin, Menachem Begin, Ariel Sharon. Ironically, > these > > former terrorists then lambasted terrorism, > applying > > this label only to Arabs fighting for the very > same > > nationhood that the Jews had fought for earlier. > > > > In Germany in 1968-92, the Baader-Meinhoff Gang > killed > > dozens, including the head of Treuhand, the German > > privatisation agency. In Italy, the Red Brigades > > kidnapped and killed Aldo Moro, former prime > minister. > > > > > > The Japanese Red Army was an Asian version of > this. > > Japan was also the home of Aum Shinrikyo, a > Buddhist > > cult that tried to kill thousands in the Tokyo > metro > > system using nerve gas in 1995. > > > > In Europe, the Irish Republican Army has been a > > Catholic terrorist organisation for almost a > century. > > Spain and France face a terrorist challenge from > ETA, > > the Basque terrorist organisation. > > > > Africa is ravaged by so much civil war and > internal > > strife that few people even bother to check which > > groups can be labelled terrorist. They stretch > across > > the continent. Possibly the most notorious is the > > Lord’s Salvation Army in Uganda, a Christian > outfit > > that uses children as warriors. > > > > In Sri Lanka, the Tamil Tigers have long > constituted > > one of the most vicious and formidable terrorist > > groups in the world. They were the first to train > > children as terrorists. They happen to be Hindus. > > Suicide bombing is widely associated with Muslim > > Palestinians and Iraqis, but the Tamil Tigers were > the > > first to use this tactic on a large scale. One > such > > suicide bomber assassinated Rajiv Gandhi in 1991. > > > > In India, the militants in Kashmir are Muslim. But > > they are only one of several militant groups. The > > Punjab militants, led by Bhindranwale, were Sikhs. > The > > United Liberation Front of Assam is a Hindu > terrorist > > group that targets Muslims rather than the other > way > > round. Tripura has witnessed the rise and fall of > > several terrorist groups, and so have Bodo > strongholds > > in Assam. Christian Mizos mounted an insurrection > for > > decades, and Christian Nagas are still heading > > militant groups. > > > > But most important of all are the Maoist terrorist > > groups that now exist in no less than 150 out of > > India’s 600 districts. They have attacked police > > stations, and killed and razed entire villages > that > > oppose them. These are secular terrorists (like > the > > Baader Meinhof Gang or Red Brigades). In terms of > > membership and area controlled, secular terrorists > are > > far ahead of Muslim terrorists. > > > > In sum, terrorism is certainly not a Muslim > monopoly. > > There are or have been terrorist groups among > > Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, and even > Buddhists. > > Secular terrorists (anarchists, Maoists) have been > the > > biggest killers. > > > > Why then is there such a widespread impression > that > > most or all terrorist groups are Muslim? I see two > > reasons. First, the Indian elite keenly follows > the > > western media, and the West feels under attack > from > === message truncated === DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register From iram at sarai.net Thu Jan 24 23:17:23 2008 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 23:17:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: chto delat or what is to be done? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4798CF2B.5040601@sarai.net> Hi all... sharing a weblink sent by a friend... the artists collaboratively run this newspaper - the writings/ issues will be of interest to many - even if they differ in opinion... have fun exploring. Cheers Iram wrote: > Chto delat/What is to be done? > - A newspaper for engaged creativity - Was founded in early 2003 in Petersburg by a workgroup of artists, critics, philosophers, and writers from Petersburg, Moscow, and Nizhny Novgorod (see full list of participants on the web site) with the goal of merging political theory, art, and activism. > > http://www.chtodelat.org/ > > Download essays at: > > http://www.chtodelat.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=162&Itemid=152 > > Explore an interesting set of links at: > > http://www.chtodelat.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=395&Itemid=189 > > From iram at sarai.net Thu Jan 24 22:44:11 2008 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:44:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] India Screenwriting Workshop Message-ID: <4798C763.70802@sarai.net> FYI... ================================= India Screenwriting Workshop 17 March - 23 March 2008, Goa "The difference between life and the movies is that a script has to make sense, and life doesn't." Joseph L. Mankiewicz Attention! All writers with a story inside that is trying to get out. Got a great story but don't know how to start a screenplay? Here is a writing lab for people who have stories to tell…. The India Screenwriting Workshop is designed for 10 aspiring screenwriters to interact in group and individual sessions with Screenwriters of international repute, with the aim of developing their own screenplays. The workshop will focus on the written work of the writers, examining their immediate story concerns and overall screenwriting craft. Writers will also interact with Industry Producers with the aim of developing the skill to pitch their stories compellingly. RESOURCE PERSONS Principal Mentors: SABRINA DHAWAN, writer of Monsoon Wedding and Associate professor in Screenwriting at the Tisch School of Arts. PAROMITA VOHRA, writer of Khamosh Pani and Visiting faculty for Scriptwriting at Sophiya College, Mumbai. Proposed Guest Mentors: Shekhar Kapoor, Vishal Bhardwaj, Abbas Tyrewala, John Newbigin, Ian Iqbal Rashid, B R Sharan (Saragama India Ltd.) AWARDS: seed grant to complete the screenplay At the end of the workshop, a seed grant will be awarded to the writers whose stories show the best potential for development into a quality screenplay. This grant is to support the writers to complete their screenplays in a stipulated period of time in which they will also receive two rounds of feedback from their Mentors. The awardees will also be required to create a short video pitch of their screenplay. Judgments on submissions will be made by a jury of Mentors and the Program Directors and their decision will be final. WORKSHOP SCHEDULE: This workshop will be held over 7 days from 17 March to 23 March at The International Centre, Goa. There is no entry fee and all travel and accomodation expenses will be borne by the organizers. Timeline:Last date for Submission of Applications - 11 Feb 2008 Announcement of shortlist of Participants chosen for Workshop - 28 Feb 2008 Screenwriting Workshop in Goa - 17 March-23 March Announcement of Seed Grant Awardees - 23 March 2008 HOW TO APPLY: Click below to download the Application Form: http://www.britishcouncil.org/india-arts-screenwriting-appl.pdf http://www.britishcouncil.org/india-arts-screenwriting-appl.doc To take part in the competition to attend the workshop, please complete this application form and send it along with your story for a film (2-5 pages) and screenplay of a few scenes (10-20 pages) not later than 11 February 2008 to indiascriptworkshop at gmail.com For complete details visit http://www.britishcouncil.org/india-arts-screenwriting.htm?mtklink=india-arts-screenwriting best wishes and looking forward to great storytelling! Natasha Badhwar Nila Madhab Panda Program Director Executive Director The India Screenwriting Workshop is funded by the British Council India. Corporate Partner: Saregama India Limited Organized by: Eleeanora Images . _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Fri Jan 25 05:09:59 2008 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:39:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] what is to be done? In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0801240626y7332fb6v713a915bf89a7c1a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <301393.37330.qm@web53605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Aarti, >I have asked only that just as everyone is entitled > to say what they wish > to, I am entitled to hear what I wish to. Whom are you asking ? Could you please clarify? Thanks Rahul --- Aarti Sethi wrote: > This is not a response to all the suggestions that > have come regarding what > can be done individually - thanks all, and lets keep > talking about this some > more... > > Just a quick response to Prakash who expressed shock > and horror at my > advocating free speech on the one hand, and > filtering on the other, and then > offered pious platitudes about democracy. Thanks > comrade, but as usual you > have failed to read my mail with care. At no point > do i ask that mails be > banned, censored, or moderated. Nowhere have I asked > Sarai as an institution > or the moderator to step in. I am not even asking > these individuals to > desist from expressing views which I clearly abhor. > > I have asked only that just as everyone is entitled > to say what they wish > to, I am entitled to hear what I wish to. This is no > way against an absolute > free speech principle. Nor is saying that in my > opinion some posts do not > deserve to be responded to against a free speech > principle, or against > reason, or against democracy. > > And I would urge you to please take a quick look at > the censorship record of > the party you belong to before you teach anyone else > any lessons regarding > their commitment to free speech. > > best as always > Aarti > > On Jan 24, 2008 6:13 PM, Nishant Shah > wrote: > > > Dear Radhika, > > I wish you would not take all conversations > personally, unless cited in > > the > > text. I, for one, did not have you in my mind when > I was talking about the > > camps. More specifically, it didn't matter, when I > was writing the mail, > > as > > to where the camps are and what they are saying. > As somebody who has been > > a > > moonlighting techie and researcher on technology, > I was merely trying to > > think of a constructive way of dealing with a > problem that open > > cyberspatial > > forums often face - two or sometimes more camps, > using the freedom of the > > space to abuse and hurl insults, hijacking other > threads or responses for > > their own personal good, and exhibiting Trollish > behaviour that often > > borders on acute schizophrenia. > > > > In both the suggestions I gave, the idea was that > if there is tagging, > > than > > a diverse reader list can become more manageable. > I am not here to believe > > that everything that is written on the list is of > equal interest to every > > single reader. The tags help us manage that. Also, > if a thread about women > > registering protest in manipur turns out to be a > discussion on what is the > > national, who is the national, and how muslims are > all terrorists, I > > think, > > as a reader, one would have better discernment > about what one wants to > > read > > and what one doesn't. A tendency to press on the > 'Reply' button on an > > email, > > without changing the subject, leads to a lot of > clutter in one's very > > limited internet time and resources. Thus, a > tagging system, warns (like > > the > > warnings on cigarette packets), that some > information might not be > > suitable > > for the users who are not looking for it. > > > > In the second option, I was suggesting a flagging > and abuse as a > > suggestion > > because it allows the users to steer clear of > certain kind of > > conversations. > > If you claim that you do not consider the origin > of the responses on the > > list, I will take it at face value. I would also > be extremely interested > > in > > how you can be enamoured by the pseudonymous > structures of cyberspatial > > forums so as to alienate the writing from the > writer to such an extent, > > that > > like in Joycean worlds, the writer is only sitting > somewhere far away, > > paring her finger nails. I, on the other hand, and > I am sure there are > > many > > others like me, do look at the pseudonymous > (sometimes personal) > > identities > > of the writers. It allows us to make more > sensitive arguments and > > sympathetic readings and also make us aware of > where they are coming from. > > In which case, it would be interesting to see how > these IDs are reflected. > > Also add to the fact that if we are talking about > a certain distributed > > communities, then it is a good idea to see how > people might be reacting to > > people rather than what they are saying. It might > actually cut down on the > > number of mails that are simply well disguised > (and in most cases, not > > even > > disguised) personal hate war. Fight your battles > elsewhere (the personal > > kinds) and make space for more arguments - that is > the rationale that I > > was > > promoting. I am not sure if it fits everybody or > not. > > > > This was a constructive way out rather than opting > for single person > > moderation or banning or censorship. That was the > issue of this mail. That > > is what I will stick to talking about. You are > most welcome to draw from > > your own Bengali free speech experience. But > surely you are not suggesting > > even there that the speech was not mediated and > free of technological > > tools. > > I was suggesting a way by which technology enables > human discernment. You > > have turned it into a question of technology > deciding for human beings. > > They > > are interesting formulations. And maybe we should > shift it to another > > thread > > and talk more. > > > > Thanks for your intervention, and for forcing me > to clarify my stand > > point, > > warmly > > Nishant. > > P.S. I would be grateful if you do not attribute > me with extra H's at the > > end of my name. It just makes minding my aiches so > much more of a pain! > > > > On Jan 24, 2008 5:25 PM, > wrote: > > > > > Dear Nishanth, > > > > > > thanks for illuminating the minds and hearts of > members on the readers > > > list. For Tapas, the debate is to win, for me > debate and discussion is > > to > > > exchange thoughts and review them, if found > useful for fruitful life use > > > them, but the very fact that open mind is > absent in many is the cause > > of > > > concern. > > > > > > If any one does not tow the line, the > typical response is to shun > > the > > > thoughts ? Well, for me I like to read and mull > over each of the > > thoughts > > > without bothering much about from which id the > thought has originated, > > but I > === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Jan 25 13:35:26 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:05:26 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] what is to be done? In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0801240626y7332fb6v713a915bf89a7c1a@mail.gmail.com> References: <48c2916d0801212324m25c66ab3p5bf16ace5ec90864@mail.gmail.com> <"47 986FF9.1030807"@gmail.com> <48c2916d0801240626y7332fb6v713a915bf89a7c1a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Aarti, thanks for the feel of the freedom in your response and the articulate expressive response in post Yes, truely those who preach of freedom never think of allowing any space for dissent and left is no exception just as our madam sonia maino and her party., or to that matter saffron party when it comes to individual expression with dissent the fact remains that the institution feels threatened as if the thoughts are going to hurt the party, not the individuals at the helm. ! And Nishant, my apologies for the addition of " h" to your name, but rose in any name is rose and fragrance is the same. ? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Aarti Sethi Date: Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:57 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] what is to be done? To: Nishant Shah Cc: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, reader-list at sarai.net, Tapas Ray , prakash ray > This is not a response to all the suggestions that have come > regarding what > can be done individually - thanks all, and lets keep talking about > this some > more... > > Just a quick response to Prakash who expressed shock and horror at my > advocating free speech on the one hand, and filtering on the > other, and then > offered pious platitudes about democracy. Thanks comrade, but as > usual you > have failed to read my mail with care. At no point do i ask that > mails be > banned, censored, or moderated. Nowhere have I asked Sarai as an > institutionor the moderator to step in. I am not even asking these > individuals to > desist from expressing views which I clearly abhor. > > I have asked only that just as everyone is entitled to say what > they wish > to, I am entitled to hear what I wish to. This is no way against > an absolute > free speech principle. Nor is saying that in my opinion some posts > do not > deserve to be responded to against a free speech principle, or against > reason, or against democracy. > > And I would urge you to please take a quick look at the censorship > record of > the party you belong to before you teach anyone else any lessons > regardingtheir commitment to free speech. > > best as always > Aarti > > On Jan 24, 2008 6:13 PM, Nishant Shah wrote: > > > Dear Radhika, > > I wish you would not take all conversations personally, unless > cited in > > the > > text. I, for one, did not have you in my mind when I was talking > about the > > camps. More specifically, it didn't matter, when I was writing > the mail, > > as > > to where the camps are and what they are saying. As somebody who > has been > > a > > moonlighting techie and researcher on technology, I was merely > trying to > > think of a constructive way of dealing with a problem that open > > cyberspatial > > forums often face - two or sometimes more camps, using the > freedom of the > > space to abuse and hurl insults, hijacking other threads or > responses for > > their own personal good, and exhibiting Trollish behaviour that > often> borders on acute schizophrenia. > > > > In both the suggestions I gave, the idea was that if there is > tagging,> than > > a diverse reader list can become more manageable. I am not here > to believe > > that everything that is written on the list is of equal interest > to every > > single reader. The tags help us manage that. Also, if a thread > about women > > registering protest in manipur turns out to be a discussion on > what is the > > national, who is the national, and how muslims are all > terrorists, I > > think, > > as a reader, one would have better discernment about what one > wants to > > read > > and what one doesn't. A tendency to press on the 'Reply' button > on an > > email, > > without changing the subject, leads to a lot of clutter in one's > very> limited internet time and resources. Thus, a tagging system, > warns (like > > the > > warnings on cigarette packets), that some information might not be > > suitable > > for the users who are not looking for it. > > > > In the second option, I was suggesting a flagging and abuse as a > > suggestion > > because it allows the users to steer clear of certain kind of > > conversations. > > If you claim that you do not consider the origin of the > responses on the > > list, I will take it at face value. I would also be extremely > interested> in > > how you can be enamoured by the pseudonymous structures of > cyberspatial> forums so as to alienate the writing from the writer > to such an extent, > > that > > like in Joycean worlds, the writer is only sitting somewhere far > away,> paring her finger nails. I, on the other hand, and I am > sure there are > > many > > others like me, do look at the pseudonymous (sometimes personal) > > identities > > of the writers. It allows us to make more sensitive arguments and > > sympathetic readings and also make us aware of where they are > coming from. > > In which case, it would be interesting to see how these IDs are > reflected.> Also add to the fact that if we are talking about a > certain distributed > > communities, then it is a good idea to see how people might be > reacting to > > people rather than what they are saying. It might actually cut > down on the > > number of mails that are simply well disguised (and in most > cases, not > > even > > disguised) personal hate war. Fight your battles elsewhere (the > personal> kinds) and make space for more arguments - that is the > rationale that I > > was > > promoting. I am not sure if it fits everybody or not. > > > > This was a constructive way out rather than opting for single person > > moderation or banning or censorship. That was the issue of this > mail. That > > is what I will stick to talking about. You are most welcome to > draw from > > your own Bengali free speech experience. But surely you are not > suggesting> even there that the speech was not mediated and free > of technological > > tools. > > I was suggesting a way by which technology enables human > discernment. You > > have turned it into a question of technology deciding for human > beings.> They > > are interesting formulations. And maybe we should shift it to > another> thread > > and talk more. > > > > Thanks for your intervention, and for forcing me to clarify my stand > > point, > > warmly > > Nishant. > > P.S. I would be grateful if you do not attribute me with extra > H's at the > > end of my name. It just makes minding my aiches so much more of > a pain! > > > > On Jan 24, 2008 5:25 PM, wrote: > > > > > Dear Nishanth, > > > > > > thanks for illuminating the minds and hearts of members on > the readers > > > list. For Tapas, the debate is to win, for me debate and > discussion is > > to > > > exchange thoughts and review them, if found useful for > fruitful life use > > > them, but the very fact that open mind is absent in many is > the cause > > of > > > concern. > > > > > > If any one does not tow the line, the typical response is > to shun > > the > > > thoughts ? Well, for me I like to read and mull over each of the > > thoughts > > > without bothering much about from which id the thought has > originated,> but I > > > may or may not agree with those thoughts, I respect the thoughts. > > Without > > > even reading the thought and total rejection of any thoughts > shows only > > the > > > typical "intellectual" mindset of the leftist idealogy where > as long as > > you > > > are yes men you are with them or otherwise you are not theirs, > such> become > > > others. ? > > > When intellectuals in Bengal protested against the crude > behaviour of > > the > > > cadres, initial response was to use filters, with voters,. > Guns and > > bullets > > > and violence, were not effective filters but power of thoughts > is such > > that > > > good thoughts will rise to awaken the intellectual at any > point of time > > and > > > make him/her think, as whether the continued support to the > wrongs by > > > handful thinkers in the politburo is right or incorrect. > > > > > > So filters of the technology or the non response will not > help as > > good > > > thoughts for humanity always tug at the conscious mind. > > > > > > Regards. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Nishant Shah > > > Date: Thursday, January 24, 2008 5:01 pm > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] what is to be done? > > > To: Tapas Ray > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > Thanks to the power of mail filtering, I, like Tapas also have > > > > been marking > > > > mails from these ids as 'suspicious' and filing them only for > > > > later reading > > > > - to indeed, have the perverse pleasure, the same as > scratching at > > > > a scab. > > > > > > > > I just wanted to clarify that the tagging system does not > require a > > > > moderator at all. I was suggesting that the users be forced to > > > > define the > > > > tags to their mails before they are acceptable to the reader > list.> > > The idea, > > > > as I said, was to help users remember what the discussion was > > > > about - there > > > > are so many hijackings in sight - and also to warn the readers > > > > that these > > > > mails might be dealing with material that they might > offensive or > > > > problematic. The tagging can be introduced as an automated > option> > > ratherthan requiring manual intervention from somebody > acting as > > > > moderator on the > > > > Sarai list. > > > > > > > > The question of abuse, again, is not about revoking rights or > > > > about banning > > > > somebody, or even making a judgement call on somebody > through a > > > > centralisedstructure. It is simply a way by which IDs which are > > > > constantly found > > > > abusive by members of the community, can be flagged as such- > more> > > like a > > > > caution sign to the rest of the readers. I was suggesting both > > > > these options > > > > as technical solutions which would require miminal human > > > > intervention from a > > > > 'Moderator' who might other wise need therapy for sifting > through> > > the amount > > > > of Troll mail that flies through the list :) > > > > > > > > cheers > > > > Nishant > > > > > > > > On Jan 24, 2008 4:31 PM, Tapas Ray wrote: > > > > > > > > > I agree with Aarti and Nishant. I have been using filters > quite> > > > effectively against these individuals, whose crudity > entertained me > > > > > initially in a perverse sort of way, but became tiresome > after a > > > > while.> There is no need for anyone to engage with them, > since it > > > > is now clear > > > > > that their objective is not to take part in rational > debate but to > > > > > destroy this space by swamping it with hate speech. (The > reason, I > > > > > think, is that they know they lack the ability to engage > in reasoned > > > > > debate, and cannot hope to "win" it.) > > > > > > > > > > Mail filters are effective and can be put in place by > anyone in > > > > a few > > > > > minutes. Nishant's suggestion about tagging and reporting > abuse> > > is also > > > > > good, but having such a system would mean someone, acting as > > > > moderator,> having to spend part of his/her day because of the > > > > actions of these > > > > > individuals - and I do not think they deserve so much > importance.> > > > > > > > > Tapas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nishant Shah wrote: > > > > > > Hi Arti, All, > > > > > > I have been a silent lurker in these days of virulent > > > > invective and > > > > > > hate-speech that have unfolded on the reader-list. I haven't > > > > been silent > > > > > > because I had nothing to say, or that I was not > provoked. I > > > > haven't been > > > > > > silent because I did not feel equally angered, sometimes to > > > > such an > > > > > extent > > > > > > that I had to walk away from the computer and swear for the > > > > nth time > > > > > that I > > > > > > will just unsubscribe from the reader's list. I have been > > > > silent because > > > > > I > > > > > > do not think I have the vocabulary to counter arguments that > > > > are based > > > > > on > > > > > > nothing more than personal prejudices, or the resources to > > > > deal with > > > > > emails > > > > > > that read a little more than poison pen. > > > > > > > > > > > > However, there is also another reason why I prefer to be > > > > silent, as > > > > > missiles > > > > > > are hurled from one end to the other, one camp offering > peace> > > flags and > > > > > > reasons, the other camp packaging the same in mails that > > > > resemble hand > > > > > made > > > > > > grenades used in violent spaces. Out of long habit of > dwelling on > > > > > various > > > > > > digital forms, I have realised that the behaviour (read as > > > > writing) of > > > > > some > > > > > > of the members who have come to haunt this particular > digital> > > platform,> can > > > > > > only be classified as 'Troll'. ( > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll). > > > > > > And as the classic motto goes, 'Do Not Feed The Troll.' > There> > > have been > > > > > many > > > > > > discussions on the reader-list about questions of > censorship,> > > > moderation, > > > > > > facilitation and so on. Each time a particularly venomous > > > > bunch of > > > > > people > > > > > > descend upon the reader-list, probably abusing their office > > > > time and > > > > > > professional resources to spew horror on to the unwary > people,> > > we talk > > > > > about > > > > > > the possibilities of lags, of delays, of moderation and of > > > > down-right > > > > > > banning. However, all these, as we have have often observed, > > > > will lead > > > > > to > > > > > > nowhere. Death, assassination and banning on the > interwebz is > > > > > unfortunately, > > > > > > only notional, symbolic. There are no finalities to > either of > > > > them and > > > > > the > > > > > > banning or the moderation of one ID would only lead to > the Trolls > > > > > spinning > > > > > > of many more IDs which would then come back for their pound > > > > and a half > > > > > of > > > > > > flesh. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hence, IMHO, the best thing to do is to stop FEEDING the > > > > TROLLS. I > > > > > second > > > > > > your request that there are so many other more fruitful ways > > > > of engaging > > > > > > with so many different topics, that it is almost > criminal (in the > > > > > non-legal > > > > > > sense of the word) to waste time and resources in trying to > > > > convince the > > > > > > digital equivalent of a black box with six pre-fed > scripts and no > > > > > semblance > > > > > > of intelligence - artificial or otherwise. We might, > next, as > > > > well start > > > > > > arguing with characters in a novel, parts in a movie, > > > > components of a > > > > > > website. Instead, it is best to just move on. > > > > > > > > > > > > Having said that, I also realise that it is sometimes > > > > difficult to move > > > > > on. > > > > > > More often than not, Trolls specialise in putting their > finger> > > on the > > > > > exact > > > > > > right spot that triggers our buttons and induce > instantaneous> > > > combustion. > > > > > > And hence, there will always be people replying to these > > > > Flames that > > > > > come > > > > > > our way; unfortunately thinking all the time that they > are doing > > > > > > fire-fighting, when actually they are just adding fuel > to the > > > > Troll> Fire. > > > > > > One technical measure that I can think of - and this takes > > > > away the > > > > > > unenviable job of a list moderator - is to implement a > tagging> > > system in > > > > > > place for all mails that come to the reader list. This at > > > > least, allows > > > > > > people to tag their mails - sometimes the titles are > > > > misleading and > > > > > provide > > > > > > no warning for what is to come - so that when a mail > arrives, the > > > > > readers > > > > > > can see the tags and decide for themselves whether they want > > > > to read the > > > > > > mail or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > The second suggestion I have might be more open for > discussion> > > - Most > > > > > user > > > > > > based free spaces of interaction in the cyberspace have > > > > developed a > > > > > policy > > > > > > of reactive resistance to what they look upon as an > abuse of > > > > the space > > > > > or > > > > > > its resources. Under such a policy, you do not ban users > from> > > saying> what > > > > > > they want to say, in whichever way they want to say it, but > > > > instead> allow > > > > > > other users to 'Report Abuse' against a particular user. The > > > > Terms of > > > > > what > > > > > > constitutes Abuse can often be generic but also be very > > > > specific in > > > > > nature > > > > > > and can have a large consultation from the people who > have any > > > > stake in > > > > > it. > > > > > > Reporting Abuse eventually needs some sort of a > moderator who > > > > either> > resolves the problem or simply marks the charged > person> > > as guilty of > > > > > abuse. > > > > > > Many times, the reason for this marking is also made > public. This > > > > > ensures > > > > > > that some IDs which are seen as destructive or Trollish, can > > > > appear> > differently in the conversations, flagged as > potentially> > > abusive in > > > > > nature. > > > > > > This also helps in new readers or readers who have more > > > > invested in the > > > > > > questions, to stay away from the responses that these IDs > > > > might be > > > > > > generating. > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope both these suggestions sound feasible. I would be > > > > available for > > > > > > further communication or planning out of the architectural > > > > integration> of > > > > > > such sort to the Reader's List. I am glad for your > > > > intervention and > > > > > pleased > > > > > > to see that instead of wasting time in responding to the > > > > Trolls, we are > > > > > now > > > > > > looking upon them as symptomatic to a certain kind of > problem that > > > > > emerges > > > > > > in 'free speech and free space' and trying to constructively > > > > deal with > > > > > them. > > > > > > > > > > > > Un-lurking after a long time, > > > > > > Nishant > > > > > > On Jan 22, 2008 12:54 PM, Aarti Sethi > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Dear all, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> It is becoming more and more difficult to read the > writing on the > > > > > >> reader-list. From misogyny, the likes of which I do not > > > > recall ever > > > > > seeing > > > > > >> before, to threats of physical violence against women's > > > > bodies, to > > > > > >> right-wing Hindu vitriol, what is going on? It is actually > > > > now painful > > > > > to > > > > > >> have to see 37 responses on a thread which deserves not > even one, > > > > > because > > > > > >> people are valiantly trying to talk rationally, reason > with,> > > respond to > > > > > >> people who should just be told to shut up. I know its very > > > > hard to keep > > > > > >> quite and let things go, especially when we have > exemplars like > > > > > chanchal > > > > > >> and > > > > > >> vedavati on this list. But we are all just getting fatigued > > > > now with > > > > > this > > > > > >> relentless barrage of invective and hate that the list is > > > > constantly> >> subjected to. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> So now I am asking for solutions. What is to be done?, as > > > > Lenin asked > > > > > many > > > > > >> years ago. What is to be done to save the reader-list? > Can we > > > > have a > > > > > >> discussion on this? Clearly responding to them in any > > > > rational fashion > > > > > is > > > > > >> not a solution. And I frankly have no interest or hope that > > > > anything> any > > > > > >> of > > > > > >> us can say will make any difference. This is not about me > > > > refusing to > > > > > have > > > > > >> a > > > > > >> conversation, because the fact is, they do not want to > have a > > > > > conversation > > > > > >> at all. And i think that is quite clear from the > writing on > > > > the list in > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> past two weeks. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> This is a request to to please stop engaging with them. > Lets> > > ignore> them, > > > > > >> lets not respond to them, lets please just mark all their > > > > mails so they > > > > > go > > > > > >> into our collective trash folders, lets talk about > other things, > > > > > anything. > > > > > >> They can then keep talking to each other about the > wonderful> > > Hindu> nation > > > > > >> they will build ad nauseum. But we dont have to listen to > > > > this. And of > > > > > >> course they will claim this as a victory etc etc. How > we cant > > > > respond> to > > > > > >> them, how we have nothing to say to their brilliant > > > > argumentation. I > > > > > can > > > > > >> already predict the responses to this mail. But I have > no trouble > > > > > saying > > > > > >> that they are right. I am limited by my own linguistic > > > > incapacity to > > > > > >> respond > > > > > >> to writing which is so poisonous. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> And a final qualification about my use of "us" and > "them" and any > > > > > >> questions > > > > > >> regarding othering, insularity, assumption of moral > > > > superiority etc > > > > > etc. I > > > > > >> can unabashedly say that I have absolutely no problems > > > > creating this > > > > > >> binary > > > > > >> divide. I have no issues saying that these are people I > want> > > to have > > > > > >> nothing > > > > > >> to do with, as far as I am concerned they are unethical and > > > > violent and > > > > > I > > > > > >> dont see why they should have any purchase on my time > at all. > > > > There are > > > > > >> far > > > > > >> more interesting things being said and there are > interesting> > > people> saying > > > > > >> them who I would much rather read, than the reams and reams > > > > of boring > > > > > >> hateful drivel that constantly issue from the likes of > chanchal..> > > > >> > > > > > >> If anyone else has any other ideas please lets hear > them. And > > > > if anyone > > > > > >> has > > > > > >> forgotten how to make filters so you can trash the trash, > > > > here is a > > > > > link > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> Vivek's very instructive mail on the matter: > > > > > >> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2007- > > > > November/011005.html> >> > > > > > >> best > > > > > >> Aarti > > > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > > > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > >> To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > >> List archive: list/>> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Nishant Shah > > > > Ph.D. Student, CSCS, Bangalore. > > > > Project Manager, COMAT, Bangalore. > > > > # 0-9740074884 > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with> > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Nishant Shah > > Ph.D. Student, CSCS, Bangalore. > > Project Manager, COMAT, Bangalore. > > # 0-9740074884 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Jan 25 13:40:33 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:10:33 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] An old saying In-Reply-To: <13BBB349-24A6-43EC-91E4-20A6BB074CA0@sarai.net> References: <13BBB349-24A6-43EC-91E4-20A6BB074CA0@sarai.net> Message-ID: Inspired thoughts, but today the human in animal kingdom is learning to live like a human only after learning to live under water, swim like a fish, fly like a bird.But the process of learning to live a good life with human body is not easy in a society where many still have the primitive instincts of animals in civilised society. ? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeebesh Bagchi Date: Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:25 pm Subject: [Reader-list] An old saying To: sarai list > Dear all, > > Here is an old saying. > > "For a Hunter to be enjoying his Hunt, he needs the Hunted to run > in > fear or attack in aggression. > He cannot enjoy the Hunt if the Hunted do not accept to behave in > this given way." > > Maybe the Hunted found many other ways, than this given ways. > > Like the small fish in the sea. Tired of being hunted down by the > big > fishes, they decided to fly out and became birds. > > warmly > Jeebesh > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From turbulence at turbulence.org Fri Jan 25 04:17:50 2008 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:47:50 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Turbulence Commission: "MYPOCKET" by Burak Arikan Message-ID: <010701c85edb$3980cbd0$ac826370$@org> Turbulence Commission: "MYPOCKET" by Burak Arikan http://turbulence.org/works/mypocket Needs a Java and Flash enabled browser; best on Firefox or Safari; optional RSS reader for Transaction Feed "MYPOCKET" discloses the artist's personal financial records to the world by exploring and revealing essential patterns in the daily transactions of his bank account. These are the records that we usually keep secret, whereas financial institutions intensively analyze them to score our credibility. Archived on the site, the artist's two years of spending history is analyzed by the custom software to predict future spending; these predictions sometimes determine his future choices, creating a system in which both the software and the artist adapt to one another. Influenced by today's techno-cultural milieu, "MYPOCKET" presents a hybrid interface to a living physical/digital process. "MYPOCKET" is a 2007 commission of New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc., (aka Ether-Ore) for its Turbulence web site. It was made possible with funding from the Jerome Foundation. BIOGRAPHY Burak Arikan is an artist and designer creating networked systems that evolve with the interactions of people and machines. He shows the instances of these systems through diverse media including prints, animation, software, electronics, and physical materials. His work has recently been shown at Ars Electronica, Venice Biennale, and Art Interactive in Cambridge. Arikan completed his master's degree at the MIT Media Laboratory in the Physical Language Workshop (PLW) led by John Maeda. While at MIT, he pursued research exploring systems that address the transition from connectivity to collectivity in the context of creative expression. Sparked by this research, Arikan initiated the "Open I/O" platform for artists and designers to collaborate through composing distributed electronic objects and space over the Internet. Prior to MIT, he worked as an information architect and visual designer in the United States and Turkey. He received an MA degree in Visual Communication Design from Istanbul Bilgi University in 2004, and a BS degree in Civil Engineering from Yildiz Technical University in 2001. For more Turbulence Commissions please visit http://turbulence.org Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 20:16:37 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:16:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits protest against Amnesty International In-Reply-To: <275280.15561.qm@web27814.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <47e122a70801221053m1044554fm39ab72275ca0cb0a@mail.gmail.com> <275280.15561.qm@web27814.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70801250646h3b3e7394hc306e2cf4ed91fda@mail.gmail.com> Ah dear Murtaza, the word Bashir Asrar and Bijbehara has opened a flood gate of memories, thanks a ton for that... ur name was mentioned to me by quite a few friends here and Kashmir.... but, please do a favour , just send me a profile photo. i would celebrate looking at it thanks for reading some of my comments..... i guess, we are unfortunately surrounded by rightwinged arguments, which i find, quuite shallow... that is why....most of us have enven branded the erestwhile liberals as right wingers....so what to do.... i guess, we need to quite frank with our our judgements, and be honest to declaring that we know little about this and that.... why to be hard. but i know that is the struggle, so be in touch with love, inder salim On Jan 24, 2008 7:31 PM, Kashmir Affairs wrote: > Dear Inder Salim, > Greetings! > > I have read few notes and posts from u around various groups with pleasure > and interest. Keep u the good the work. > Just out of curiosity I wanted to know what do u do these days. I remember > meeting u nearly two decades back in Bijbehara with a book printed by Bashir > Asrar which contained some of ur sketches. > I am Bijbehara as well, though i haven't lived there for quite a long > time. > > khudayes hawal, > Murtaza Shibli > > *inder salim * wrote: > > On Jan 22, 2008 11:55 PM, inder salim wrote: > > Dear Arifi, Dear Ajay > > > > Rasul chu zanith deen te mazhab rokh te zulf chaen > > Kav zani kayah gov kufu te islam nigaro > > Your face and your hair. That is all I know about different forms of > > Religion. How come, I am expected to know what is Islamic or what is > > un-islamic. ( Rasool Mir- poet Kashmir > > > > Your face and your hair: Kashmiri Pandits and Kashmiri Muslims, > > although in contrast, but they belong to one language, one poet, one > > unique civilization: a singularity. > > Kashmiri Muslims yearn for " a just Kashmir" in contrast to Kashmiri > > Pandits who want " a just India's Kashmir" Right! > > > > I believe, this whole conflict is embedded in the desire… how to utter > > the inner core of the respective beings involved. > > > > Both the parties, by now, need to realize that it is a long drawn > > conflict, so they need to sustain, and see who is outwitting the > > other, if they are truly into the game of language. Both of them can > > engage their beings into that 'Kasheer thing' deeply, if there is a > > inner need to enter that Aag ka darya hai aur doob kay jana hai. > > Needless to mention that all actions finally translate into to signs > > and help us to generate other sings and symbols and future actions, > > and therefore, language with capital L. Language is not a dry subject; > > there is blood in it. Just see how we read history, and how easily we > > get so involved. All I want is a serious involvement, and not a > > sentimental one. > > > > How to say the same thing that does not seem out of place. Words tell > > us the secret of this and don't tell us, even. > > > > " .. that the imagination depends on words. Words complete our > > fantasies, fill in their gaps, support their inconsistency, prolong > > them, enrich them with what cannot be seen or touched" Jean Paul > > Sartre. > > > > I personally appreciate any effort that rips the word, because, > > language is out there to be treated as vegetable or a chicken under > > the knife. One can be thousand times wrong grammatically but one can > > not be shallow or trivial. There is nothing sacred or profane in the > > word, it in-it-self yearns for a bolder approach, a passionate > > penetrator. > > > > Here, Faiz, in fact never abandoned the romantic or the political > > even. One can see that "Your face and your hair in his poem > > simultaneously. Can we too do it. That is a challenge ? > > If I don't seem drifting too far, I believe, Meera had something to > > with Socrates. Not only because they had to drink poison in the end > > but they had a unique power to outwit the establishment. Meera mingled > > with the other and the popular and lifted it to the heights of > > metaphysical and so did secretes when he said while drinking hemlock " > > now I see my face merging with the mask " There was intense political > > hidden in both, besides that personal " Knowthyself". > > > > with love > > inder salim > > > > > > On Jan 21, 2008 7:48 PM, Wali Arifi wrote: > > > Mr A of ARKP, > > > > > > > > > Never rest till you "rights" are recognised! > > > > > > Until the "killings" and "purging" of your community are not > recognised as > > > "genocide, holocaust" etc etc etc whatever you may want it to be... > > > > > > There must be hope in the Amnesty. > > > > > > > > > Keep up the good work! > > > > > > Best > > > > > > Wali > > > > > > On Jan 18, 2008 12:35 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > > > > > Kashmiri Pandits protest against Amnesty International > > > > > > > > *New Delhi* > > > > *A worldwide initiative of the Kashmiri Pandit youth "Roots In > Kashmir" > > > > protested against the international human rights group Amnesty > > > > International > > > > on the occasion of 60th anniversary of Universal Declaration of > Human > > > > Rights > > > > on Sunday.* > > > > > > > > *The group accused Amnesty of being biased in their human rights > reports > > > > in > > > > the last two decades on the issue of Kashmir and Kashmiri Pandits.* > > > > > > > > *"It has just failed to come to our rescue; Amnesty has failed to > rise to > > > > the occasion wherein it could have played a greater role in raising > the > > > > issues connected with the Kashmiri Pandit exodus," said a group > member.* > > > > ** > > > > *Read detailed story, pictures and more at - > > > > http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/* > > > > ** > > > > *Thanks* > > > > *Aditya Raj Kaul* > > > > *New Delhi* > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > ------------------------------ > Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From pkray11 at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 05:09:10 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 05:09:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sicko in Oscar: A letter from Michael Moore Message-ID: <98f331e00801251539q7003b40fuec5de7c77784dcc0@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, I am posting a letter from filmmaker Michael Moore with the happy note that his latest film "Sicko" has got nomination for the Oscar. Thanks, Prakash January 25, 2008 Friends, I just wanted to drop you a note to let you know (if you didn't already) the good news that "Sicko" has been nominated for this year's Academy Award for Best Documentary. It was a pleasant surprise when we got the news on Tuesday. Of course, every reporter who's called me in the past few days wanted to know if I plan on giving an "anti-war" or "anti-Bush" speech, should "Sicko" win, as I did when we won the Oscar for "Bowling for Columbine" in 2003. (As you may recall, it was the 5th day of the war when those Oscars were held, and I said from the stage that, while I enjoy making nonfiction films, we live in fictitious times with a man of fiction in the White House. A ruckus ensued with a loud roar of cheers and boos, then someone cued the band to get me off the stage. As host Steve Martin said a few moments later, Teamsters were out back loading me into the trunk of a car.) Well it's five years later and we are still at war. But there's no booing these days. 65% of the public is now opposed to the war and to Mr. Bush. The Academy, instead of cutting off the microphone, now nominates anti-war films for Best Documentary. That's right, three of the five nominees this year are Iraq War films! I am very honored to be in this group of documentaries, three of which I brought last summer to our film festival in northern Michigan. "Taxi to the Dark Side" is a brutal examination of U.S. torture in Iraq and Afghanistan. "Operation Homecoming" has actors reading letters from soldiers in Iraq. "No End in Sight" has ex-Bush administration officials admitting how they messed up the occupation, lamenting how things would have been so much better if only Bush had put people in Baghdad who knew what they were doing (and wouldn't we all have loved to see THAT? Hahaha). And "War/Dance" tells the moving story of kids in a dance competition in war-torn Africa. A diverse group of films, and proof that nonfiction movies are stronger than ever. A lot of people ask me, 'how does this whole Oscar voting thing work?' Well, actors nominate actors, directors nominate directors -- every branch essentially votes to nominate their own (including documentary filmmakers in my branch) -- and then all 6,000 Academy members vote for the Best Picture nominees. After the nominations are announced, then all 6,000 vote for all the categories. Documentaries, though, have one special rule: The voters have to verify they have seen all five nominated films. As some of these films, unfortunately, don't have the distribution they deserve, special Academy members-only screenings of all five nominees are set up for this very purpose in the next few days in New York , and in the next couple of weeks in L.A. and elsewhere, and that's when any Academy member can vote for Best Documentary. But will there be an Oscar show this year? As you know, the Writers Guild (of which I am a member) is on strike and the Oscars are a union show. If the strike isn't settled, they won't be able to put on the typical telecast as no actor, writer or anyone I know will cross the picket line. This is all happening because a couple of hotheads at the studios (some would say union-busting knuckleheads) have walked away from the negotiating table in what seems like an attempt to simply get rid of the union. What do they think we are, air traffic controllers? The writers are only asking for about 2.5 cents out of every dollar made on Internet sales (that's right, not even 3 pennies!), a small pittance compared to what the studios or networks rake in. That's it. The union has dropped the demand to unionize the reality shows (in 1993, I created the first unionized reality show, "TV Nation," but the Writers Guild unfortunately wasn't able to build on this). I would like to believe that the honchos will come to their senses and settle this strike. Otherwise, I won't be able to talk to Joan Rivers on the red carpet or attend all those Oscar parties afterward! Don't make me suffer like this! My wardrobe and stylist people are already in tears. In the meantime, I'll send you some pre-Super Tuesday thoughts next week. Thanks again for all your nice comments on the Oscar nod and I hope this extra attention on "Sicko" will help to push for the day when every American can go to the doctor or the hospital and never be asked "what's in your wallet?" Yours, Michael Moore From jeebesh at sarai.net Sat Jan 26 10:27:50 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh Bagchi) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:57:50 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] An old saying In-Reply-To: References: <13BBB349-24A6-43EC-91E4-20A6BB074CA0@sarai.net> Message-ID: <8CFB0465-1851-4FBA-A75F-3CFCA63C290D@sarai.net> On 25-Jan-08, at 1:10 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > But the process of learning to live a good life with human body is > not easy in a society where many still have the primitive instincts > of animals in civilised society. ? Growing up in a cultural geography where almost all non-humans are gods and goddesses, aids to gods to travels, helpers, protectors, co- travellers, wise narrators, the ones asking the most difficult ethical questions, i am not sure why this question is self- explanatory. Which cultural knowledge gives the confidence to denigrate at this level the non-humans.? And which non-human had made knives, bombs, tanks, explosives to kill others of its same species and other species? warmly jeebesh From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 10:37:50 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 10:37:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Wandhama massacre: Case Closed Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801252107v65464752p156d0483530e83f1@mail.gmail.com> *Wandhama massacre: In police files, it's a closed chapter Shabir Ibn Yusuf * http://www.kashmirtimes.com/ SRINAGAR, Jan 24: *Police has closed the case related to massacre of Pandits at Wandhama with the conclusion that the gun men behind the massacre are untraced.* During the intervening night of January 25 and 26, 1998, twenty three Kashmiri Pandits were killed by unidentified gunmen in Wandhama village of Ganderbal. "The case has been closed as no one involved in the massacre was identified," says police. The gruesome killing of 23 Kashmiri Pandits on that day triggered off fresh migration of Pandit families. Several of the few Kashmiri Pandit families who had endured the turmoil and were against the migration, migrated after the massacre. The massacre of Pandits at Wandhama went uninvestigated despite repeated demands by the Kashmiris. Hurriyat Conference observed a protest strike demanding an inquiry. Amnesty International's request to investigate Wandhama carnage was refused. After the incident a fear psychosis gripped the minority community in the valley. The indiscriminate firing on the Pandits spared 16 year-old Manoj Kumar Dhar, and, he was the lone eyewitness to the massacre. In a statement to police on that night, Kumar said a group of masked gunmen came to his house at about 11:30 pm and forced all those inside to come out. "I jumped out of the wall of my house. As soon as my father, brothers and sisters came out, I saw the gunmen shooting them. They were crying and begging for life,'' he had told the police. Kumar had further told police in his statement, "One of the gunman spotted me and asked me to come out as well but I hid myself beneath a heap of saw dust stored in the house. They then opened fire from all sides of the house and probably believed that I too was killed in the firing. I can not identify them but they were not speaking Kashmiri." Almost all the people of the area were in the mosque as it was the holy night of Shab-e-Qader. Police recorded further statements from the locals. "We came to know about the killings only when a group of our women came wailing," Abdul Ahad, a villager told the police. Meanwhile, the police that day claimed to had recovered a letter in which an unknown militant organisation, Intikaam-ul-Muslimoon, had claimed responsibility for killing of Pandits. The letter that was tagged to one of the bullet-ridden bodies disclosed that this was the beginning of a series of such attacks aimed at taking revenge for the killings in Handwara. Police said that the villagers from both the communities blamed the "unwise" shift of an army camp from the area seven months before the incident. Militant groups at that time had blamed security agencies for the massacre and denied their involvement. The then minister of state for home Ali Mohammad Sagar had also criticised the role of army saying the army camp located only some kms from Wandhama did not react in time and reached the spot very late. This had trigerred off a major controversy between Sagar and army. Sub Divisional police officer Ganderbal Showkat Ahmad, who was then Station Hose Officer for the area told Kashmir Times, "*The case has been closed, as no one was identified as the killer of these Pandits."* From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Jan 26 14:01:55 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 13:31:55 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] An old saying In-Reply-To: <8CFB0465-1851-4FBA-A75F-3CFCA63C290D@sarai.net> References: <13BBB349-24A6-43EC-91E4-20A6BB074CA0@sarai.net> <8CFB0465-1851-4FBA-A75F-3CFCA63C290D@sarai.net> Message-ID: Jeebesh, announcement of Padma awards took me back into memories of my school days, when my teacher in a general discussion had told us that way to heart is thru stomach, way to awards and rewards is to keep the ruler in good humour. As I saw the list of awardees and rewardees I could not but remember those words of my school teacher and hence some random thoughts, - Over the last sixty years the Padma awardees are mostly from the ruler parties. ! Very few really did anytthing worthwhile for the society they lived in with very few exceptional persons in the list, but one thing common in all the rewardees is all of them were for sure good in keeping the rulers in good humour. ? Now the awards to Barkha Dutt and Rajdeep Sardesai of visual media is certainly reward for the rabid follow up in their "good " work for the ruling party in general elections held in Gujarath, even as society tried to heal the wounds of the hurt, their channels were stoking the flames of spent footage and more visuals of the past to inflame the society with more hate, so award as reward is fully justified for these "journalists". ? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeebesh Bagchi Date: Saturday, January 26, 2008 10:01 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] An old saying To: sarai list > > On 25-Jan-08, at 1:10 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > > But the process of learning to live a good life with human body > is > > not easy in a society where many still have the primitive > instincts > > of animals in civilised society. ? > > Growing up in a cultural geography where almost all non-humans are > > gods and goddesses, aids to gods to travels, helpers, protectors, > co- > travellers, wise narrators, the ones asking the most difficult > ethical questions, i am not sure why this question is self- > explanatory. Which cultural knowledge gives the confidence to > denigrate at this level the non-humans.? > > And which non-human had made knives, bombs, tanks, explosives to > kill > others of its same species and other species? > > warmly > jeebesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From chintichinti at yahoo.com Sat Jan 26 20:12:39 2008 From: chintichinti at yahoo.com (chintan gohil) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 06:42:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] Urbanbody:Mumbai - Studio with TU Delft: UPDATED Message-ID: <773257.18993.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hello, Thank you all for your responses. Here is a brief description of the issues/aims/process/partners which might clarify further as to what the intention of the studio is. Feel free to contact me for further clarification and ofcourse for any potential collaboration interests. Cheerio for now C Mapping Dharavi Urban Body Research Studio on Mumbai The studio aims at exploring and mapping the complexity of elements, which constitute the urban, social and cultural texture of squatter settlements in the city of Mumbai. Considering these areas within the broader framework of urban transformations and redevelopment projects, the studio looks at the slums as forms of ‘emergent’ urbanities, which function with a multiple logic and structure of relations both within itself and with the outside. Strategically, the studio questions both binary logics of opposition and problem-solving attitudes. Polarities such as formal/informal, legal/illegal will be put under scrutiny in order to understand the intertwining and shades of meanings that operate within a multi-faceted context. An explorative and analytical attitude will be therefore encouraged as a device to understand unfamiliar urban mechanisms in a non-judgemental way. Questions of self-organisation, informal micro-economies, gender roles, private and public spheres will be addressed in relation to both their impact on the actual definition of the slums and to their relation to the broader network of power and political structures of the city. The main focus of the studio will be the slum of Dharavi; being the largest squatter settlement of Asia it allows for a deep and privileged understanding of the multiplicity of layers – on the local, regional and international level – that operate in the constitution and definition of these urban emergences. Streets will be addressed as the crucial element of analysis. They represent the physical realm of interaction and social experimentation while also being the membrane through which different types of spaces mingle and transform. They will be the “laboratory” to understand relationships between flows of capital, labour forces and patterns of dwelling and inhabitation. Throughout the nine weeks of its program, the studio will propose and interdisciplinary approach that will be developed through a variety of devices. An “action-learning” approach would foster students to embrace an experiential understanding of knowledge production. The first four weeks will be dedicated to getting “acquainted” with the urban, social, political and cultural context of Mumbai in general and Dharavi in particular. Seminars, guest lectures, video screenings will be part of the program. Students will be also provided with a basic methodological tool-kit that will allow them to relate in a morally and professionally sober way to a non-western and unfamiliar context. The studio will then propose a three-weeks research and mapping field work in Mumbai, which will be followed by two more weeks for elaboration and post-production of the collected material. The “results” of the studio will be presented in a public exhibition at TU Delft and NAi and will be the core material for a forthcoming publication. There will also be a follow up of the research that will be presented at the CCA, Canadian Centre for Architecture, in Montreal in the Fall of 2009. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 20:53:28 2008 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:53:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Global Day of Action Message-ID: <3457ce860801260723k33c8f37dw6844c6930b032876@mail.gmail.com> As part of the Global Day of Action by World Social Forum the Kerala Swatantra Malsyathozhilaly Federation (Kerala Independent Fish workers Federation) conducted a protest march and public meeting in Vizhinjam Harbour ,Trivandrum against Coastal Zone Management Plan of Indian Government. The fishing community also protested against the permission given to the Indonesian fishing vessels to the Indian waters. The protesters stated that the CZM Plan will affect fishing community by removing their customary rights to coastal land and facilitating invasion of the lobby of the sand mining, Tourism and hazardous Industry. KSMTF appealed to all people's action groups to express solidarity to the struggle of the fishing community against Globalization. KSMTF president T.Peter inaugurated the public meeting. Valerian Isaac, Anto Elias, J.P.John and R.Joseph Lopez express their strong dissent against the invasion of coastal waters by Globalization. http://www.keralafishworkers.org http://www.alakal.net From miyaa_mihir at yahoo.com Sun Jan 27 00:23:35 2008 From: miyaa_mihir at yahoo.com (mihir pandya) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 10:53:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] french film festival Message-ID: <820805.40805.qm@web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Festival of French films to be held in various Indian cities. Check this link out... rendezvouswithfrenchcinema.in ...miHir --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From janez-jansa at hotmail.com Mon Jan 28 15:18:20 2008 From: janez-jansa at hotmail.com (=?Windows-1252?Q?janez_jan=9Aa?=) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:48:20 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Signature Event Context banned from Transmediale.08 Message-ID: Subject: Signature Event Context banned from Transmediale.08 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE January 28, 2008 Janez Janša, Janez Janša, Janez Janša "Signature Event Context" Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe / Denkmal für die ermordeten Juden Europas Berlin, Germany !!! WARNING !!! The performance "Signature Event Context" by Janez Janša, Janez Janša, Janez Janša scheduled for the opening of TRANSMEDIALE.08 the 29th of January 2008 at 8.30 pm at the foyer of the Haus der Kulturen der Welt in Berlin, Germany, has been conjunctively CANCELLED by the director of transmediale Stephen Kovats and the Guest-Curator of the exhibition CONSPIRE… Nataša Petrešin-Bachelez. Consequently, Janez Janša, Janez Janša and Janez Janša anticipated the date of the action performing "Signature Event Context" on January 28, 2008 at 00.01 am WATCH THE PERFORMANCE www.aksioma.org/sec Signature Event Context In summer 2007, three Slovenian artists officially changed their names to Janez Janša. Their work focuses on the question of signature, and – more particularly – on the role of signature in public space. In their various approaches, they explore Derrida’s famous statement on signature and its paradoxical relationship towards originality and repetition. “By definition, a written signature implies the actual or empirical nonpresence of the signer. But, it will be said, it also marks and retains his having-been present in a past now, which will remain a future now, and therefore in a now, in general, in the transcendental form of nowness (maintenance). This general maintenance is somehow inscribed, stapled to the present punctuality, always evident and always singular, in the form of the signature. This is the enigmatic originality of every paraph. For the attachment to the source to occur, the absolute singularity of an event of the signature and of a form of the signature must be retained: the pure reproducibility of a pure event.” (Jacques Derrida, “Signature Event Context” in Margins of Philosophy, tr. Alan Bass, pp. 307-330) On January 28th, 2008, Janez Janša, Janez Janša, and Janez Janša performed Signature Event Context at the Holocaust Memorial in Berlin, a walking action in the corridors of the Memorial. Each one of them, equipped with a GPS device, covered a different path within the Memorial’s structure this way, together assembling a common signature visible only in a virtual space (the internet). During the performance artists continuously repeated “Jaz sem Janez Janša, Jaz sem Janez Janša, Jaz sem Janez Janša…” (“My name is Janez Janša”). Signature Event Context at the Holocaust Memorial puts together 3 concepts (signature, event and context) from Derrida’s essay in complex relation; signature itself is an event which re-contextualizes the site of signature. In his book At Memory's Edge: After-images of the Holocaust in Contemporary Art and Architecture (Yale University Press, 2000) the American scholar James E. Young writes that there is no intrinsic meaning in memorials. Instead, they derive their meaning from visitors' interactions: each visitor makes their own experience of memory at a memorial. The structure of the Holocaust Memorial in Berlin, which invites a visitor for an individual experience – as has been stated by its architect Peter Eisenman –, points to the intention of the Signature Event Context project. Eisenman concludes his statement with the following explanation of the experience in the Memorial: "In this monument there is no goal, no end, no working one's way in or out. The duration of an individual's experience of it grants no further understanding, since understanding is impossible. The time of the monument, its duration from top surface to ground, is disjoined from the time of experience. In this context, there is no nostalgia, no memory of the past, only the living memory of the individual experience. Here, we can only know the past through its manifestation in the present." (Eisenman Architects, Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe, Berlin. Project text by Peter Eisenman) In Derrida's words, walking and talking signatures by Janša, Janša and Janša are the physical manifestations of nowness via individual experience. The traces of the walking and talking signature are left only in virtual space. Memory is always already a performance of virtuality. REASON FOR BANNING S.E.C. FROM TRANSMEDIALE.08 According to the new director of Transmediale Stephen Kovats and to the Guest Curator of the exhibition CONSPIRE… Nataša Petrešin-Bachelez, the great cause for banning this project from the festival 4 days before its opening has to be find in “judicial and legislative reasons” (Kovats) and “personal - curatorial and ethical convictions« (Petrešin-Bachelez). Janez Janša, Janez Janša, Janez Janša understand the banning act as an ACT OF POWER perpetrated by the artistic director of the festival and its guest-curator to the detriment of the artists and as an ACT OF VIOLENCE towards freedom of artistic expression. Artists hereby formally invite the director of Transmediale Stephen Kovats, the guest-curator of the exhibition CONSPIRE… Nataša Petrešin-Bachelez and the general public to an open confrontation on issues disclosed by Signature Event Context to take place in form of a public round table. "Signature Event Context" - images of the performance www.aksioma.org/sec/press.html Credits Janez Janša, Janez Janša, Janez Janša Signature Event Context Performance, SI, 2008 Production: Aksioma | www.aksioma.org Co-production: Maska | www.maska.si, Arscenic | www.arscenic.info _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From ravikant at sarai.net Mon Jan 28 15:44:29 2008 From: ravikant at sarai.net (Ravikant) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:44:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Open School' Message-ID: <200801281544.29899.ravikant@sarai.net> Here is a piece, 'another product of a lazy, hot summer afternoon! The events are true', in author Shobhit Mahajan's words. I certainly enjoyed it. Ravikant Not so long ago, on long walls of moffussil towns, there were two preponderant kinds of advertisements for people who were on the brink of losing hope. One kind publicized quacks who had a cure for “Gas, Namardi, Dhatu Rog, etc.” These were usually smartly attired, healthy looking men who visited the small towns on fixed days of the month to provide succor to various suckers! The other kind of advertisements gave hope to students who had failed Class 8- they could now directly give the Class X or XI exam and pass “privately”. The private “college” industry was a very lucrative one. A neighbor of ours had done yeomen service in ensuring a school certificate for literally thousands of unfortunate kids in the small town where I grew up. The modus operandi was simple- you registered with this college and during the month of May or June, you would be taken to places like Gwalior, Bhopal etc. to ‘sit’ for the board exam. And lo and behold, you would come back with t certificate. The choice of the city or board was dictated presumably by the ease with which such humanitarian ideal could be achieved. Our neighbor became prosperous in this business till the eighties when he moved into the other “sunrise” industry- that of naturopathy, magnetic healing and acupressure! Sometime in the eighties, the government decided to get into this in a big way and the Open School was started for students who had not completed formal schooling. The idea was a good one- a lot of school dropouts pick up jobs before completing the secondary school. Give them an opportunity to get a certificate by passing a standardized examination. A huge infrastructure and bureaucracy was put in place. Books were written specifically for the Open School- books whose quality was usually not very good. Nevertheless, the idea of bringing some level of quality control in this booming private sector was admirable. Or so I thought till the other day. A peon in our office applied for leave for 15 days to appear for the Class XII exams from the Open School. I thought this was very creditable till I learnt that he had never even seen the books or the syllabus! On my persistent questioning on how he intended to pass the exams, he sheepishly told me that everything has been “set”. Apparently, the supervisor ship of the examination centers is a very lucrative business. There are people who will ensure that students are given all the “assistance” for clearing the examinations. These range from taking the papers out to be solved by “tutors” to leaving the paper blank for someone else to fill it up! In one case, the invigilator worked out the paper on the blackboard. Of course, all this comes at a hefty fee of about Rs. 1000/- to Rs. 2000/- per student per paper. All this was not happening in some way out place like Basti or Monghyr. It was in the heart of the capital of India! I must confess that I was a bit shocked by the ‘openness’ and brazenness of this whole modus operandi. But on thinking about it, I realized that this is how most things end up in our system. Any kind of regulation in any sphere by the government leads to certain vested interests prospering in cahoots with easily corruptible public servants. This goes on till someone in the government realizes it is time to replace one kind of regulatory system with another. Within a short time, the smart operators figure out a way around this new system. And this goes on till the next change! The survival of the fittest in the face of evolutionary pressures in a true Darwinian sense! Fortunately, the other advertisers on moffussil walls, the purveyors of masculininty don’t seem to be under any threat from any regulation! From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 16:41:31 2008 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 16:41:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Requirement for Translators Message-ID: Dear All, www.empoweringindia.org is a website for data on electoral candidates. Elections in Karnataka are upcoming. Empoweringindia.org is looking for people who would be interested in translating Karnataka state election candidates' affidavit data from Kannada to English. Remuneration will be offered for persons interested. Interested persons please contact barun.mitra at gmail.com Regards, Zainab Bawa -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://wbfs.wordpress.com From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 17:00:26 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:30:26 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] NYT Review of Tahmima Anam's GOLDEN AGE Message-ID: NYT. January 27, 2008. Birth of a Nation. by Michael Gorra. A GOLDEN AGE. by Tahmima Anam. 276 pp. Harper/HarperCollins Publishers. $24.95. About halfway through Tahmima Anam's first novel, the story slows for a weather report, an evocation of August in the author's native Bangladesh. The mornings seem "unbearably liquid" with humidity, and tempers worsen as "the air stopped around people's throats, not a stir, everything still as buildings." Then come the daily "exclamations of lightning," and always there is "one small boy, or a very old man, or even a dog" waiting with his tongue out for the first drop of rain to fall. The description allows for a few seconds of calm in an increasingly tense plot, but it's also a bravura set piece. It's almost as if Anam were giving herself a test - if she were writing about Los Angeles, she'd do the Santa Ana winds - a test she passes, not least because she never uses the word "monsoon." And from that moment on, almost everything goes right with this historical novel about the birth of a new nation. I say "from that moment on" because this book, the first in a projected trilogy, gets off to a muddy start. Born in 1975, educated in France, Thailand, England and America and now resident in London, Anam is too young to have witnessed her country's drive for independence; instead, she's telling the story of her parents' generation. When the British quit India in 1947, they cut the subcontinent in two and left a Pakistan that was itself divided. The country that now bears this name was the politically and militarily dominant west; the more densely populated east was a very different place. There, a shared Bengali culture linked Hindus and Muslims, with close ties between the Indian city of Calcutta and East Pakistan's capital of Dhaka. In 1971, an eastern party won a parliamentary majority, but leaders in the west kept it from taking office, and the army invaded what had been its own country. That army quickly earned a reputation for atrocity - and found itself facing both a declaration of independence and an unexpectedly active resistance. After millions of refugees crossed its border, India joined the war on behalf of the new nation of Bangladesh and within weeks compelled a Pakistani surrender. But the dead were already past counting. "A Golden Age" opens in 1959 with the words of a widow to her dead husband: "I lost our children today." Rehana Haque, a young woman from an aristocratic but impoverished Calcutta family, has entered into an arranged marriage with a kindly businessman in Dhaka, only to see him die of a heart attack. With no money to fight her husband's rich brother, she temporarily loses custody of her two children, who are taken far away to Lahore, in the west. After a mysterious bit of luck with an investment in real estate, Rehana is able to bring them back, but the loss has marked her. Although she builds an ordered life, she has no dreams or hopes of her own. When the civil war begins, it takes weeks for her to realize the scale of the history taking place all around her. Her children, now in their late teens, react more decisively. Rehana's daughter, Maya, moves to Calcutta to write about the freedom fighters for a newspaper, and Rehana's son, Sohail, gets himself to a training camp for guerillas, eventually returning to bury a cache of arms in his mother's garden. At the same time, Rehana's hated brother-in-law comes to Dhaka as a member of the occupation. Historical novels must get the history right. They must be scrupulous about details in order to make us swallow the liberties they inevitably take in representing actual people, or in putting their own invented characters close to the center of the action. In some novels, these liberties may be writ large, made mythic or fantastical, as in Salman Rushdie's "Midnight's Children," which attempts to get at a truth that lies beyond the documents. But Tahmima Anam works in a traditionally realistic style, and because of that she came near to losing me in her opening pages. When her children are sent to West Pakistan in 1959, Rehana is deemed an unfit mother, too young and feckless to teach them proper behavior. One item of evidence cited in court against her is the allegation that she has taken the children to see Elizabeth Taylor in "Cleopatra" - which wasn't released until 1963. This silly mistake put me in a deeply skeptical mood. It made me ask whether "Cleopatra" would have been shown in Pakistan at all, and if so, in how censored a form? Still doubting, I later asked myself whether 17-year-old Maya would really have told her mother that all the girls at her university were having sex. Would it have been true, even in her Marxist circles? Anam deftly captures the brutality of the Pakistani Army, but could its soldiers have also been so unobservant? Would none of them have detected the digging in Rehana's garden, especially after it became public knowledge that her son had joined the freedom fighters? Would such fighters have been able to stay in touch with one another by telegram, as Anam suggests? If a writer can't be trusted about small things, can we trust her about large ones? At the outset, Anam's prose doesn't help; in fact, some of her descriptive passages are so overwrought as to be unclear. In one scene, Rehana sees a little girl next to a blood-filled gutter, her mouth a "pale pink smudge, like the introduction of a bruise," but Anam so tangles Rehana's perceptions and her own omniscient narrative voice that it's impossible to tell if the child is alive or dead. Yet the monsoon brings relief. Once the war takes hold, Anam finds her subject in Rehana's fierce love for her children, in the story of what she is willing to do to keep them alive. The novel's language grows more confident, and history itself becomes an animating force. Rehana travels to Calcutta and works at a refugee camp, then returns to Dhaka at the height of the crisis. The second half of the novel acquires a taut, electric air, and I turned its pages as greedily as if it were a thriller. The start of "A Golden Age" may not be promising, but by its end this first novel has itself become a promising start. Michael Gorra teaches English at Smith College. His books include "After Empire" and, as editor, "The Portable Conrad." January 27, 2008 First Chapter 'A Golden Age' By TAHMIMA ANAM March 1971 Shona with her back to the sun Every year, Rehana held a party at Road 5 to mark the day she had returned to Dhaka with the children. She saved her meat rations and made biryani. She rented chairs and called the jilapi-wallah to fry the hot, looping sweets in the garden. There was a red-and-yellow tent in case of rain, lemonade in case of heat, cucumber salad, spicy yoghurt. The guests were always the same: her neighbour Mrs Chowdhury and her daughter Silvi; her tenants, the Senguptas, and their son, Mithun; and Mrs Rahman and Mrs Akram, better known as the gin-rummy ladies. So, on the first morning of March, as on the first morning of every March for a decade, Rehana rose before dawn and slipped into the garden. She shivered a little and rubbed her elbows as she made her way across the lawn. Winter still lingered on the leaves and in the wisps of fog that rolled over the delta and hung low over the bungalow. She dipped her fingers into the rosebush, heavy with dew, and plucked a flower. She held it in her hand as she wandered through the rest of the garden, ducking between the wall - hugging jasmine and the hibiscus, crossing the tiny vegetable patch that was giving them the last of the season's cauliflower, zigzagging past the mango tree, the lemon tree, the shouting-green banana tree. She looked up at the building that would slowly, over the course of the day, cast a long shadow over her little bungalow. Shona. She could still hear Mrs Chowdhury telling her to build the new house at the back of her property. 'Such a big plot,' she'd said, peering out of the window; 'you can't even see the boundary it's so far away. You don't need all that space.' 'Should I sell it?' Mrs Chowdhury snapped her tongue. 'Na, don't sell it.' 'Then what?' 'Build another house.' 'What would I do with another house?' 'Rent, my dear. Rent it out.' Now there were two gates, two driveways, two houses. The new driveway was a narrow passage that opened into the back of Rehana's plot. On the plot stood the house she had built to save her children. It towered above the bungalow, its two whitewashed storeys overlooking the smaller house. Like the bungalow, it had been built with its back to the sun. The house was nearly ten years old now, and a little faded. Ten monsoons had softened its edges and drawn meandering, old-age seams into the walls. But every day, as Rehana woke for the dawn Azaan, or when she went to put the washing in the garden, or when, after bathing, she fanned out her long hair on the back of a veranda chair, Rehana looked at the house with pride and a little ache. It was there to remind her of what she had lost, and what she had won. And how much the victory had cost. That is why she had named it Shona, gold. It wasn't just because of what it had taken to build the house, but for all the precious things she wanted never to lose again. Rehana turned back to the bungalow and entered the drawing room. She ran her palm across the flat fur of the velvet sofa, the dimpled wood of the dining table. The scratched, loved, faded whitewash of the veranda wall. She unfurled her prayer mat, pointed it westwards and sank to her knees. This was the start of the ritual: wake before sunrise, feel her way around the house; pray; wake the children. They were not children any more. She had to keep reminding herself of this fact. At nineteen and seventeen, they were almost grown up. She clung greedily to the almost, but she knew it would not last long, this hovering, flirting with adulthood. Already they were beings apart, fast on their way to shedding the fierce, hungry mother-need. Rehana lifted the mosquito net and nudged Maya's shoulder. 'Wake up, jaan,' she said. 'It's our anniversary!' She went to Sohail's room and knocked, but he was already awake. 'For you,' she said, holding out the rose. While the children took turns in the bath, Rehana ironed their new clothes. This year she had chosen an egg-blue sari for herself and a blue georgette with yellow polka dots for Maya. For Sohail there was a brown kurta-pyjama. She had embroidered the purple flowers on the collar herself. 'Ammoo,' Maya said, 'I have to go to campus after the party - I can't wear this.' 'I'm sure your activist friends won't mind if you don't wear white for one day.' 'You wouldn't understand,' she retorted, tucking the sari under her elbow anyway. After they had all bathed and put on their new clothes, the children took turns touching Rehana's feet. 'God bless you,' she said, hugging them tightly, their strong, tanned arms around her neck almost beyond her imagination. They were both taller than her. Maya had passed Rehana by a few inches, and Sohail was a full head and shoulders above them both; Rehana was often reminded of the moment she'd met Iqbal, hunched over the wedding dais, how he had towered over her like a thunder cloud. But in fact Sohail had grown to resemble Rehana. He was pale and had her small nose and her slightly crooked teeth; his hair was fashioned into a wave at the top of his head, the crest threatening to tip over his eyelids. Sometimes, like today, he wore kurta-pyjamas, but usually he was seen in more fashionable attire: tight, long-collared shirts and even tighter trousers that hung over his shoes and drew tracks in the dust. It was Maya who looked more like her father. She had his chestnut skin and deep-set eyes that made her look serious even when she was trying to say something funny or make a joke - which rarely happened - but Rehana had often seen her friends pause and look at each other, wondering whether to laugh. (Continues...) Excerpted from A Golden Age by Tahmima Anam Copyright (c) 2008 by Tahmima Anam. Excerpted by permission. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher. Excerpts are provided by Dial-A-Book Inc. solely for the personal use of visitors to this web site. From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 18:56:07 2008 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:56:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Dwindling fish stock worries coast Message-ID: <3457ce860801280526t54405b4ak55a7b77c30c5c2a4@mail.gmail.com> Kerala - Thiruvananthapuram Date:28/01/2008 URL: http://www.thehindu.com/2008/01/28/stories/2008012850250200.htm Dwindling fish stock worries coast Special Correspondent THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: It is a period of poverty and deprivation in the coastal villages of the State. Heavy depletion of fish stocks has pushed thousands of families to the brink of starvation, according to the Kerala Swathantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation (KSMTF). "It is unprecedented," says T. Peter, State president, KSMTF. "Most of the common varieties of fish that are available at this time of the year have disappeared," he says. >From Indonesia The federation feels that the operation of foreign trawlers is to blame for the scarcity of fish. "The Central government has permitted 50 Indonesian trawlers to operate from Munambam for tuna fishing. These trawlers operate in the coastal waters where traditional fishermen net most of their catch," points out Mr. Peter. The federation has urged the State and Central governments to deny permission for foreign trawlers to operate in the coastal areas of Kerala. Kerosene permits KSMTF district president Valerian Isaac and secretary Anto Elias also called on the Kerala government to issue kerosene permits for all outboard engines and to enhance the quota of kerosene. A press note quoting them alleged that a section of officials in the Civil Supplies Corporation was choking the supply of kerosene to the fisheries sector. The federation has threatened to launch an agitation to press for its demands. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.keralafishworkers.org http://www.alakal.net From nmajumda+ at pitt.edu Mon Jan 28 20:21:36 2008 From: nmajumda+ at pitt.edu (nmajumda+ at pitt.edu) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:51:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Reader-list] Critiquing Neo-Classical Economics Message-ID: <1136.136.142.136.38.1201531896.squirrel@webmail.pitt.edu> I am posting the question below on behalf of someone who is not a member of this list: There is a philosophical journal in Munich called "Widerspruch" ("contradiction"), which has become quite well known in philosophical circles in Germany over the years, especially because it has retained something like a critical thrust and an interest in contemporary problems. This is certainly not common as far as philosophical journals are concerned, at least in Germany. Widerspruch's next issue will focus on "alternative economics". This will involve subjecting neo-classical economics, which is practically ruling today's world, to a critical scrutiny. The starting point of this project was the protest of students of economics at the Sorbonne against mainstream economics, which ignores vital aspects like the ecological or the political that are inseperable from real economic praxis. In this connection "Widerspruch" has formulated a small catalogue of fundamental questions which they would like to pose to "alternative economists" all over the world. If you have suggestions for names (and contact information) of Indian economists critical of mainstream economics, would you please email me a list of persons Widerspruch could approach? Thank you, Pravu Mazumdar mazumdarpravu at gmx dot net From ravig64 at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 08:29:21 2008 From: ravig64 at gmail.com (Ravi Agarwal) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:29:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Open School' In-Reply-To: <200801281544.29899.ravikant@sarai.net> References: <200801281544.29899.ravikant@sarai.net> Message-ID: Hi Ravikant when one reads this, one realizes that this is true. In a cynical way, one can say this was expected, but am not sure to what degree we can 'expect' things like this. One is not sure what is the extent of this? One went to 'safe' education, where things were more strict than strict, but another level this is not true, and there is a class divide. On the other hand, it will be interesting to explore what advantage such a degree gives to the peon you mention. What are his compulsions, and how is the system set up to encourage this kind of demand for a useless 'formal' education need. Where there is opportunity they will be innovation of the type you describe. best ravi On Jan 28, 2008, at 3:44 PM, Ravikant wrote: Here is a piece, 'another product of a lazy, hot summer afternoon! The events are true', in author Shobhit Mahajan's words. I certainly enjoyed it. Ravikant Not so long ago, on long walls of moffussil towns, there were two preponderant kinds of advertisements for people who were on the brink of losing hope. One kind publicized quacks who had a cure for “Gas, Namardi, Dhatu Rog, etc.” These were usually smartly attired, healthy looking men who visited the small towns on fixed days of the month to provide succor to various suckers! The other kind of advertisements gave hope to students who had failed Class 8- they could now directly give the Class X or XI exam and pass “privately”. The private “college” industry was a very lucrative one. A neighbor of ours had done yeomen service in ensuring a school certificate for literally thousands of unfortunate kids in the small town where I grew up. The modus operandi was simple- you registered with this college and during the month of May or June, you would be taken to places like Gwalior, Bhopal etc. to ‘sit’ for the board exam. And lo and behold, you would come back with t certificate. The choice of the city or board was dictated presumably by the ease with which such humanitarian ideal could be achieved. Our neighbor became prosperous in this business till the eighties when he moved into the other “sunrise” industry- that of naturopathy, magnetic healing and acupressure! Sometime in the eighties, the government decided to get into this in a big way and the Open School was started for students who had not completed formal schooling. The idea was a good one- a lot of school dropouts pick up jobs before completing the secondary school. Give them an opportunity to get a certificate by passing a standardized examination. A huge infrastructure and bureaucracy was put in place. Books were written specifically for the Open School- books whose quality was usually not very good. Nevertheless, the idea of bringing some level of quality control in this booming private sector was admirable. Or so I thought till the other day. A peon in our office applied for leave for 15 days to appear for the Class XII exams from the Open School. I thought this was very creditable till I learnt that he had never even seen the books or the syllabus! On my persistent questioning on how he intended to pass the exams, he sheepishly told me that everything has been “set”. Apparently, the supervisor ship of the examination centers is a very lucrative business. There are people who will ensure that students are given all the “assistance” for clearing the examinations. These range from taking the papers out to be solved by “tutors” to leaving the paper blank for someone else to fill it up! In one case, the invigilator worked out the paper on the blackboard. Of course, all this comes at a hefty fee of about Rs. 1000/- to Rs. 2000/- per student per paper. All this was not happening in some way out place like Basti or Monghyr. It was in the heart of the capital of India! I must confess that I was a bit shocked by the ‘openness’ and brazenness of this whole modus operandi. But on thinking about it, I realized that this is how most things end up in our system. Any kind of regulation in any sphere by the government leads to certain vested interests prospering in cahoots with easily corruptible public servants. This goes on till someone in the government realizes it is time to replace one kind of regulatory system with another. Within a short time, the smart operators figure out a way around this new system. And this goes on till the next change! The survival of the fittest in the face of evolutionary pressures in a true Darwinian sense! Fortunately, the other advertisers on moffussil walls, the purveyors of masculininty don’t seem to be under any threat from any regulation! _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ummemeister at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 19:48:27 2008 From: ummemeister at gmail.com (umme salma) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:18:27 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] indian documentary Message-ID: <4cedff200801290618g40e794b2lc2ec0e2117cde876@mail.gmail.com> hello everybody! My name is Umme Salma and i'm an indian born anthropologist residing in lisbon, portugal. i'm searching for information regarding indian documentaries, its history, a list of films... and the place where i can get them. I realize that there are things that remount to early 20th century... the ideia is to organize a festival of indian documentary here. can anyone help me? with love Umme From mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 14:31:21 2008 From: mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com (mahmood farooqui) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:31:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Dastangoi in Pakistan School festival Message-ID: Dear All, Following our visit to Pakistan last year, when we did a series of Dastangoi performances in different cities, the Karachi Grammar School this year organised a Dastangoi festival for school children, where children recited and perfomed excerpts from the Dastan-e Amir Hamza and in particular from the Tilism-e Hoshruba, the section from which we perform. The initiative was not ours, but still deeply thrilled that our efforts have kickstarted a movement somwehere, in some direction. More details on http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/?page=2008%5C01%5C27%5Cstory_27-1-2008_pg12_6 Cheers, Mahmood From santhosh.kanipayur at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 15:13:42 2008 From: santhosh.kanipayur at gmail.com (Santhosh Kumar) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 15:13:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: screening of There was a Queen in MIFF In-Reply-To: <19d498870801300140s7f0c588brcd06385e6cde4d9f@mail.gmail.com> References: <19d498870801300140s7f0c588brcd06385e6cde4d9f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <19d498870801300143q296e2912g45ac9494cfc66e28@mail.gmail.com> Screening in 10th Mumbai International Film Festival *Yi As Akh Padshah Bai* There was a Queen Directed by Kavita Pai and Hansa Thapliyal 105 minutes/ English Subtitled Competition section: Godrej Theatre - 4th February-Evening 8-00 to 9-30 pm http://miffindia.in/ScreeningSchedule.aspx Crew (All Women Crew) Directed by Kavita Pai / Hansa Thapliyal Camera: Ranu Ghosh Sound: Gissy Michael Editing: Gouri Patwardhan Music: Manish J. Tipu Executive Producer: E. Deenadayalan Synopsis "Give us guns and we'll play our role!" - These are not the words of a hardened criminal, these are the words of a teenaged girl in Kashmir less than a week after her sister was buried. Farha's sister Shahnaza, and her friend, Ulfat, victims of 'crossfire', would have been adult women today - they were barely seventeen when they died, as old as the *tehreek*, the movement, that exploded into existence in 1989, shattering forever the peace of the Valley, and turning it into one of the most critical conflict zones in the world. Over these eighteen years, flashes of intensified conflict and bouts of negotiations have followed one another with monotonous regularity in Kashmir. Newspapers and television channels manufacture predictable binary images of conflict – angry men and weeping women, peace loving Kashmiris and terrorist Kashmiris, misguided innocents and fundamentalist separatists, victims and aggressors. Over and above these is the image that erases all differences – the Kashmiri as terrorist. When we set out to make a film on peace initiatives by women in conflict, the question uppermost in our minds was, are women in Kashmir not Kashmiri, do they really want peace? What kind of peace? And what about the men, don't they want peace too, aren't they human? If both men and women want peace, then what is the conflict about? Can 'peace' still the turmoil at the heart of every Kashmiri? What then are the conditions for peace? It felt strange to speak to women, only women, ignoring the other half. So we spoke to a few men – one a former militant, another who had sent his son for training across the border with his blessings, a third who had lost his son and then realized he was a militant, a fourth whose brother was killed in crossfire – we spoke to men and realized that while every story had the power to shock and move, the women's stories were compelling in their honesty, in their rage, in their helplessness, in their grief, in their contempt, in their fierce refusal to forget, in their determination to survive, to nurture. It is through these women – proud, strong, with an undying zest for life – that we examine what peace means and how it can come about in Kashmir. From mail at shivamvij.com Wed Jan 30 17:37:32 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:37:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Caste bias: Medico ends life in Punjab Message-ID: <9c06aab30801300407y716de53fle5ac945906bab3b6@mail.gmail.com> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Caste_bias_Medico_ends_life_in_Punjab/articleshow/2739278.cms Caste bias: Medico ends life in Punjab 29 Jan 2008, 0417 hrs IST,TNN CHANDIGARH: A fourth year student of MBBS at Government Medical College and Hospital in Chandigarh committed suicide in the hospital premises on Sunday after he was allegedly harassed by two classmates and a teacher. The body of 23-year-old, a resident of Sector 41, Chandigarh, was found hanging in the hospital's library toilet. He left a suicide note accusing two classmates of "harassing and demoralising" him. He also accused head of community medicine department Dr N K Goel of preventing him from taking the exams because he was a scheduled caste. The police handed over the body to his family on Monday after a post-mortem examination. Sources said Jaspreet had tried to commit suicide earlier too but timely action saved him then. The police have booked both classmates and Goel on charges of abetting the suicide. However, no arrests were made as the suicide note would be examined first. From nitbhag at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 18:40:11 2008 From: nitbhag at gmail.com (Nitesh Bhatnagar) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 18:40:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Listening To Grasshoppers [Arundhati Roy] Message-ID: Listening To Grasshoppers Genocide, Denial And Celebration It's an old human habit, genocide is. It's a search for lebensraum, project of Union and Progress. by ARUNDHATI ROY Magazine| Feb 04, 2008 http://outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080204&fname=Cover+Story+%28F%29&sid=1 I never met Hrant Dink, a misfortune that will be mine for time to come. From what I know of him, of what he wrote, what he said and did, how he lived his life, I know that had I been here in Istanbul a year ago I would have been among the one hundred thousand people who walked with his coffin in dead silence through the wintry streets of this city, with banners saying, "We are all Armenians", "We are all Hrant Dink". Perhaps I'd have carried the one that said, "One and a half million plus one".* [*One-and-a-half million is the number of Armenians who were systematically murdered by the Ottoman Empire in the genocide in Anatolia in the spring of 1915. The Armenians, the largest Christian minority living under Islamic Turkic rule in the area, had lived in Anatolia for more than 2,500 years.] I wonder what thoughts would have gone through my head as I walked beside his coffin. Maybe I would have heard a reprise of the voice of Araxie Barsamian, mother of my friend David Barsamian, telling the story of what happened to her and her family. She was ten years old in 1915. She remembered the swarms of grasshoppers that arrived in her village, Dubne, which was north of the historic city Dikranagert, now Diyarbakir. The village elders were alarmed, she said, because they knew in their bones that the grasshoppers were a bad omen. They were right; the end came in a few months, when the wheat in the fields was ready for harvesting. "When we left...(we were) 25 in the family," Araxie Barsamian says. "They took all the men folks. They asked my father, 'Where is your ammunition?' He says, 'I sold it.' So they says, 'Go get it.' So he went to the Kurd town to get it, they beat him and took all his clothes. When he came back there—this my mother tells me story—when he came back there, naked body, he went in the jail, they cut his arms...so he die in jail. And they took all the mens in the field, they tied their hands, and they shooted, killed every one of them." Araxie and the other women in her family were deported. All of them perished except Araxie. She was the lone survivor. This is, of course, a single testimony that comes from a history that is denied by the Turkish government, and many Turks as well. I am not here to play the global intellectual, to lecture you, or to fill the silence in this country that surrounds the memory (or the forgetting) of the events that took place in Anatolia in 1915. That is what Hrant Dink tried to do, and paid for with his life. The day I arrived in Istanbul, I walked the streets for many hours, and as I looked around, envying the people of Istanbul their beautiful, mysterious, thrilling city, a friend pointed out to me young boys in white caps who seemed to have suddenly appeared like a rash in the city. He explained that they were expressing their solidarity with the child-assassin who was wearing a white cap when he killed Hrant. The battle with the cap-wearers of Istanbul, of Turkey, is not my battle, it's yours. I have my own battles to fight against other kinds of cap-wearers and torchbearers in my country. In a way, the battles are not all that different. There is one crucial difference, though. While in Turkey there is silence, in India there's celebration, and I really don't know which is worse. In the state of Gujarat, there was a genocide against the Muslim community in 2002.I use the word Genocide advisedly, and in keeping with its definition contained in Article 2 of the United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. The genocide began as collective punishment for an unsolved crime—the burning of a railway coach in which 53 Hindu pilgrims were burned to death. In a carefully planned orgy of supposed retaliation, 2,000 Muslims were slaughtered in broad daylight by squads of armed killers, organised by fascist militias, and backed by the Gujarat government and the administration of the day. Muslim women were gang-raped and burned alive. Muslim shops, Muslim businesses and Muslim shrines and mosques were systematically destroyed. Some 1,50,000 people were driven from their homes. Even today, many of them live in ghettos—some built on garbage heaps—with no water supply, no drainage, no streetlights, no healthcare. They live as second-class citizens, boycotted socially and economically. Meanwhile, the killers, police as well as civilian, have been embraced, rewarded, promoted. This state of affairs is now considered 'normal'. To seal the 'normality', in 2004, both Ratan Tata and Mukesh Ambani, India's leading industrialists, publicly pronounced Gujarat a dream destination for finance capital. The initial outcry in the national press has settled down. In Gujarat, the genocide has been brazenly celebrated as the epitome of Gujarati pride, Hindu-ness, even Indian-ness. This poisonous brew has been used twice in a row to win state elections, with campaigns that have cleverly used the language and apparatus of modernity and democracy. The helmsman, Narendra Modi, has become a folk hero, called in by the BJP to campaign on its behalf in other Indian states. As genocides go, the Gujarat genocide cannot compare with the people killed in the Congo, Rwanda and Bosnia, where the numbers run into millions, nor is it by any means the first that has occurred in India. (In 1984, for instance, 3,000 Sikhs were massacred on the streets of Delhi with similar impunity, by killers overseen by the Congress Party.) But the Gujarat genocide is part of a larger, more elaborate and systematic vision. It tells us that the wheat is ripening and the grasshoppers have landed in mainland India. It's an old human habit, genocide is. It has played a sterling part in the march of civilisation. Amongst the earliest recorded genocides is thought to be the destruction of Carthage at the end of the Third Punic War in 149 BC. The word itself—genocide—was coinedby Raphael Lemkin only in 1943, and adopted by the United Nations in 1948, after the Nazi Holocaust. Article 2 of the United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide defines it as: "Any of the following Acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [or] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group." Since this definition leaves out the persecution of political dissidents, real or imagined, it does not include some of the greatest mass murders in history. Personally I think the definition by Frank Chalk and Kurt Jonassohn, authors of The History and Sociology of Genocide, is more apt.Genocide, they say, "is a form of one-sided mass killing in which a state or other authority intends to destroy a group, as that group and membership in it are defined by the perpetrator." Defined like this, genocide would include, for example, the monumental crimes committed by Suharto in Indonesia (1 million) Pol Pot in Cambodia (1.5 million), Stalin in the Soviet Union (60 million), Mao in China (70 million). All things considered, the word extermination, with its crude evocation of pests and vermin, of infestations, is perhaps the more honest, more apposite word. When a set of perpetrators faces its victims, in order to go about its business of wanton killing, it must first sever any human connection with it. It must see its victims as sub-human, as parasites whose eradication would be a service to society. Here, for example, is an account of the massacre of Pequot Indians by English Puritans led by John Mason in Connecticut in 1636: Those that escaped the fire were slaine with the sword; some hewed to peeces, others rune throw with their rapiers, so they were quickly dispatchte, and very few escaped. It was conceived they thus destroyed about 400 at this time. It was a fearful sight to see them thus frying in the fyre, and the streams of blood quenching the same, and horrible was the stincke and sente thereof, but the victory seemed a sweete sacrifice.... And here, approximately four centuries later, is Babu Bajrangi, one of the major lynchpins of the Gujarat genocide, recorded on camera in the sting operation mounted by Tehelka a few months ago: We didn't spare a single Muslim shop, we set everything on fire...hacked, burned, set on fire...we believe in setting them on fire because these bastards don't want to be cremated, they're afraid of it.... I have just one last wish...let me be sentenced to death...I don't care if I'm hanged...just give me two days before my hanging and I will go and have a field day in Juhapura where seven or eight lakhs of these people stay...I will finish them off...let a few more of them die...at least 25,000 to 50,000 should die. I hardly need to say that Babu Bajrangi had the blessings of Narendra Modi, the protection of the police, and the love of his people. He continues to work and prosper as a free man in Gujarat. The one crime he cannot be accused of is Genocide Denial. Genocide Denial is a radical variation on the theme of the old, frankly racist, bloodthirsty triumphalism. It was probably evolved as an answer to the somewhat patchy dual morality that arose in the 19th century, when Europe was developing limited but new forms of democracy and citizens' rights at home while simultaneously exterminating people in their millions in her colonies. Suddenly countries and governments began to deny or attempt to hide the genocides they had committed. "Denial is saying, in effect," says Professor Robert Jay Lifton, author of Hiroshima and America: Fifty Years of Denial, "that the murderers did not murder. The victims weren't killed. The direct consequence of denial is that it invites future genocide." Delhi, 1984: Congress contribution to India's genocide history Of course today, when genocide politics meets the Free Market, official recognition—or denial—of holocausts and genocides is a multinational business enterprise. It rarely has anything to do to with historical fact or forensic evidence. Morality certainly does not enter the picture. It is an aggressive process of high-end bargaining, that belongs more to the World Trade Organisation than to the United Nations.The currency is geopolitics, the fluctuating market for natural resources, that curious thing called futures trading and plain old economic and military might. In other words, genocides are often denied for the same set of reasons as genocides are prosecuted. Economic determinism marinated in racial/ethnic/religious/national discrimination. Crudely, the lowering or raising of the price of a barrel of oil (or a tonne of uranium), permission granted for a military base, or the opening up of a country's economy could be the decisive factor when governments adjudicate on whether a genocide did or did not occur. Or indeed whether genocide will or will not occur. And if it does, whether it will or will not be reported, and if it is, then what slant that reportage will take. For example, the death of two million in the Congo goes virtually unreported. Why? And was the death of a million Iraqis under the sanctions regime, prior to the US invasion, genocide (which is what Denis Halliday, the UN Humanitarian Coordinator for Iraq, called it) or was it 'worth it', as Madeleine Albright, the US ambassador to the UN, claimed? It depends on who makes the rules. Bill Clinton? Or an Iraqi mother who has lost her child? Since the United States is the richest and most powerful country in the world, it has assumed the privilege of being the World's Number One Genocide Denier. It continues to celebrate Columbus Day, the day Christopher Columbus arrived in the Americas, which marks the beginning of a Holocaust that wiped out millions of native Indians, about 90 per cent of the original population. (Lord Amherst, the man whose idea it was to distribute blankets infected with smallpox virus to Indians, has a university town in Massachusetts, and a prestigious liberal arts college named after him). In America's second Holocaust, almost 30 million Africans were kidnapped and sold into slavery. Well near half of them died during transportation. But in 2002, the US delegation could still walk out of the World Conference Against Racism in Durban, refusing to acknowledge that slavery and the slave trade were crimes. Slavery, they insisted, was legal at the time. The US has also refused to accept that the bombing of Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden and Hamburg—which killed hundreds of thousands of civilians—were crimes, let alone acts of genocide. (The argument here is that the government didn't intend to kill civilians. This was the first stage in the development of the concept of "collateral damage".) Since the end of World War II, the US government has intervened overtly, militarily, more than 400 times in 100 countries, and covertly more than 6,000 times. This includes its invasion of Vietnam and the extermination, with excellent intentions of course, of three million Vietnamese (approximately 10 per cent of its population). None of these has been acknowledged as war crimes or genocidal acts."The question is," says Robert MacNamara—whose career graph took him from the bombing of Tokyo in 1945 (1,00,000 dead overnight) to being the architect of the Vietnam War, to President of the World Bank—now sitting in his comfortable chair in his comfortable home in his comfortable country, "the question is, how much evil do you have to do in order to do good?" Could there be a more perfect illustration of Robert Jay Lifton's point that the denial of genocide invites more genocide? And what when victims become perpetrators? (In Rwanda, in the Congo?) What remains to be said about Israel, created out of the debris of one of the cruellest genocides in human history? What of its actions in the Occupied Territories? Its burgeoning settlements, its colonisation of water, its new 'Security Wall' that separates Palestinian people from their farms, from their work, from their relatives, from their children's schools, from hospitals and healthcare? It is genocide in a fishbowl, genocide in slow motion—meant especially to illustrate that section of Article 2 of the United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, which says that genocide is any act that is designed to "deliberately inflict on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or part". The history of genocide tells us that it's not an aberration, an anomaly, a glitch in the human system. It's a habit as old, as persistent, as much part of the human condition, as love and art and agriculture. Most of the genocidal killing from the 15th century onwards has been an integral part of Europe's search for what the Germans famously called Lebensraum—living space. Lebensraum was a word coined by the German geographer and zoologist Freidrich Ratzel to describe what he thought of as the dominant human species' natural impulse to expand its territory in its search for not just space, but sustenance. This impulse to expansion would naturally be at the cost of a less dominant species, a weaker species that Nazi ideologues believed should give way, or be made to give way, to the stronger one. The idea of lebensraum was set out in precise terms in 1901, but Europe had already begun her quest for lebensraum 400 years earlier, when Columbus landed in America. The search for lebensraum also took Europeans to Africa: unleashing holocaust after holocaust. The Germans exterminated almost the entire population of the Hereros in Southwest Africa; while in the Congo, the Belgians' "experiment in commercial expansion" cost 10 million lives. By the last quarter of the 19th century, the British had exterminated the aboriginal people of Tasmania, and of most of Australia. Sven Lindqvist, author of Exterminate the Brutes, argues that it was Hitler's quest for lebensraum—in a world that had already been carved up by other European countries—that led the Nazis to push through Eastern Europe and on toward Russia. The Jews of Eastern Europe and western Russia stood in the way of Hitler's colonial ambitions. Therefore, like the native people of Africa and America and Asia, they had to be enslaved or liquidated. So, Lindqvist says, the Nazis' racist dehumanisation of Jews cannot be dismissed as a paroxysm of insane evil. Once again, it is a product of the familiar mix: economic determinism well marinated in age-old racism, very much in keeping with European tradition of the time. It's not a coincidence that the political party that carried out the Armenian genocide in the Ottoman Empire, was called the Committee for Union & Progress.'Union' (racial/ethnic/religious/national) and 'Progress' (economic determinism) have long been the twin coordinates of genocide. Armed with this reading of history, is it reasonable to worry about whether a country that is poised on the threshold of "progress" is also poised on the threshold of genocide? Could the India being celebrated all over the world as a miracle of progress and democracy, possibly be poised on the verge of committing genocide? The mere suggestion might sound outlandish and, at this point of time, the use of the word genocide surely unwarranted. However, if we look to the future, and if the Tsars of Development believe in their own publicity, if they believe that There Is No Alternative to their chosen model for Progress, then they will inevitably have to kill, and kill in large numbers, in order to get their way. Advani's chariot of fire: And so the Union project was launched In bits and pieces, as the news trickles in, it seems clear that the killing and the dying has already begun. It was in 1989, soon after the collapse of the Soviet Union, that the Government of India turned in its membership of the Non-Aligned Movement and signed up for membership of the Completely Aligned, often referring to itself as the 'natural ally' of Israel and the United States. (They have at least this one thing in common—all three are engaged in overt, neo-colonial military occupations: India in Kashmir, Israel in Palestine, the US in Iraq.) Almost like clockwork, the two major national political parties, the BJP and the Congress, embarked on a joint programme to advance India's version of Union and Progress, whose modern-day euphemisms are Nationalism and Development. Every now and then, particularly during elections, they stage noisy familial squabbles, but have managed to gather into their fold even grumbling relatives, like the Communist Party of India (Marxist). The Union project offers Hindu Nationalism (which seeks to unite the Hindu vote, vital you will admit, for a great democracy like India). The Progress project aims at a 10 per cent annual growth rate. Both these projects are encrypted with genocidal potential. The Union project has been largely entrusted to the RSS, the ideological heart, the holding company of the BJP and its militias, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad and the Bajrang Dal. The RSS was founded in 1925. By the 1930s, its founder, Dr Hedgewar, a fan of Benito Mussolini, had begun to model it overtly along the lines of Italian fascism. Hitler too was, and is, an inspirational figure. Here are some excerpts from the RSS Bible, We or Our Nationhood Defined by M.S. Golwalkar, who succeeded Dr Hedgewar as head of the RSS in 1940: Ever since that evil day, when Moslems first landed in Hindustan, right up to the present moment, the Hindu Nation has been gallantly fighting on to take on these despoilers. The Race Spirit has been awakening. Then: In Hindustan, land of the Hindus, lives and should live the Hindu Nation.... All others are traitors and enemies to the National Cause, or, to take a charitable view, idiots.... The foreign races in Hindustan...may stay in the country, wholly subordinated to the Hindu Nation, claiming nothing, deserving no privileges, far less any preferential treatment—not even citizen's rights. And again: To keep up the purity of its race and culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging the country of the Semitic races—the Jews.Race pride at its highest has been manifested here...a good lesson for us in Hindustan to learn and profit by. (How do you combat this kind of organised hatred? Certainly not with goofy preachings of secular love.) By the year 2000, the RSS had more than 45,000 shakhas and an army of seven million swayamsevaks preaching its doctrine across India. They include India's former prime minister, Atal Behari Vajpayee, the former home minister and current leader of the Opposition, L.K. Advani, and, of course, the three-times Gujarat chief minister, Narendra Modi. It also includes senior people in the media, the police, the army, the intelligence agencies, judiciary and the administrative services who are informal devotees of Hindutva—the RSS ideology. These people, unlike politicians who come and go, are permanent members of government machinery. But the RSS's real power lies in the fact that it has put in decades of hard work and has created a network of organisations at every level of society, something that no other organisation can claim. The BJP is its political front. It has a trade union wing (Bharatiya Mazdoor Sangh), a women's wing (Rashtriya Sevika Samiti), a student wing (Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad) and an economic wing (Swadeshi Jagaran Manch). Its front organisation Vidya Bharati is the largest educational organisation in the non-governmental sector. It has 13,000 educational institutes including the Saraswati Vidya Mandir schools with 70,000 teachers and over 1.7 million students. It has organisations working with tribals (Vanavasi Kalyan Ashram), literature (Akhil Bharatiya Sahitya Parishad), intellectuals (Pragya Bharati, Deendayal Research Institute), historians (Bharatiya Itihaas Sankalan Yojanalaya), language (Sanskrit Bharti), slum-dwellers (Seva Bharati, Hindu Seva Pratishthan), health (Swami Vivekanand Medical Mission, National Medicos Organisation), leprosy patients (Bharatiya Kushtha Nivaran Sangh), cooperatives (Sahkar Bharati), publication of newspapers and other propaganda material (Bharat Prakashan, Suruchi Prakashan, Lokhit Prakashan, Gyanganga Prakashan, Archana Prakashan, Bharatiya Vichar Sadhana, Sadhana Pustak and Akashvani Sadhana), caste integration (Samajik Samrasta Manch), religion and proselytisation (Vivekananda Kendra, Vishwa Hindu Parishad, Hindu Jagaran Manch, Bajrang Dal). The list goes on and on... On June 11, 1989, Congress prime minister Rajiv Gandhi gave the RSS a gift. He was obliging enough to open the locks of the disputed Babri Masjid in Ayodhya, which the RSS claimed was the birthplace of Lord Ram. At the National Executive of the BJP, the party passed a resolution to demolish the mosque and build a temple in Ayodhya. "I'm sure the resolution will translate into votes," said L.K. Advani. In 1990, he criss-crossed the country on his Rath Yatra, his Chariot of Fire, demanding the demolition of the Babri Masjid, leaving riots and bloodshed in his wake. In 1991, the party won 120 seats in Parliament. (It had won two in 1984). The hysteria orchestrated by Advani peaked in 1992, when the mosque was brought down by a marauding mob. By 1998, the BJP was in power at the Centre. Its first act in office was to conduct a series of nuclear tests. Across the country, fascists and corporates, princes and paupers alike, celebrated India's Hindu Bomb. Hindutva had transcended petty party politics. In 2002, Narendra Modi's government planned and executed the Gujarat genocide. In the elections that took place a few months after the genocide, he was returned to power with an overwhelming majority. He ensured complete impunity for those who had participated in the killings. In the rare case where there has been a conviction, it is of course the lowly footsoldiers, and not the masterminds, who stand in the dock. Impunity is an essential prerequisite for genocidal killing.India has a great tradition of granting impunity to mass killers. I could fill volumes with the details. In a democracy, for impunity after genocide, you have to "apply through proper channels". Procedure is everything. In the case of several massacres, the lawyers that the Gujarat government appointed as public prosecutors had actually already appeared for the accused. Several of them belonged to the RSS or the VHP and were openly hostile to those they were supposedly representing. Survivor witnesses found that, when they went to the police to file reports, the police would record their statements inaccurately, or refuse to record the names of the perpetrators. In several cases, when survivors had seen members of their families being killed (and burned alive so their bodies could not be found), the police would refuse to register cases of murder. Ehsan Jaffri, the Congress politician and poet who had made the mistake of campaigning against Modi in the Rajkot elections, was publicly butchered. (By a mob led by a fellow Congressman.) In the words of a man who took part in the savagery: Five people held him, then someone struck him with a sword...chopped off his hand, then his legs...then everything else...after cutting him to pieces, they put him on the wood they'd piled and set him on fire. Burned him alive. The Ahmedabad Commissioner of Police, P.C. Pandey, was kind enough to visit the neighbourhood while the mob lynched Jaffri, murdered 70 people, and gang-raped 12 women before burning them alive. After Modi was re-elected, Pandey was promoted, and made Gujarat's Director-General of Police. The entire killing apparatus remains in place. The Supreme Court in Delhi made a few threatening noises, but eventually put the matter into cold storage. The Congress and the Communist parties made a great deal of noise, but did nothing. In the Tehelka sting operation, broadcast recently on a news channel at prime time, apart from Babu Bajrangi, killer after killer recounted how the genocide had been planned and executed, how Modi and senior politicians and police officers had been personally involved. None of this information was new, but there they were, the butchers, on the news networks, not just admitting to, but boasting about their crimes. The overwhelming public reaction to the sting was not outrage, but suspicion about its timing. Most people believed that the expose would help Modi win the elections again. Some even believed, quite outlandishly, that he had engineered the sting. He did win the elections. And this time, on the ticket of Union and Progress. A committee all unto himself. At BJP rallies, thousands of adoring supporters now wear plastic Modi masks, chanting slogans of death. The fascist democrat has physically mutated into a million little fascists. These are the joys of democracy. Who in Nazi Germany would have dared to put on a Hitler mask? The Dehumanised: Dalit massacre, Jehanabad, 1997 Preparations to recreate the 'Gujarat blueprint' are currently in different stages in the BJP-ruled states of Orissa, Chhattisgarh, Jharkhand, Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh and Karnataka. To commit genocide, says Peter Balkian, scholar of the Armenian genocide, you have to marginalise a sub-group for a long time. This criterion has been well met in India. The Muslims of India have been systematically marginalised and have now joined the Adivasis and Dalits, who have not just been marginalised, but dehumanised by caste Hindu society and its scriptures, for years, for centuries. (There was a time when they were dehumanised in order to be put to work doing things that caste Hindus would not do.Now, with technology, even that labour is becoming redundant.) Part of the RSS's work involves setting Dalits against Muslims, Adivasis against Dalits. While the 'people' were engaged with the Union project and its doctrine of hatred, India's Progress project was proceeding apace. The new regime of privatisation and liberalisation resulted in the sale of the country's natural resources and public infrastructure to private corporations. It has created an unimaginably wealthy upper class and growing middle classes who have naturally become militant evangelists for the new dispensation. The Progress project has its own tradition of impunity and subterfuge, no less horrific than the elaborate machinery of the Union project. At the heart of it lies the most powerful institution in India, the Supreme Court, which is rapidly becoming a pillar of Corporate Power, issuing order after order allowing for the building of dams, the interlinking of rivers, indiscriminate mining, the destruction of forests and water systems. All of this could be described as ecocide—a prelude perhaps to genocide. (And to criticise the court is a criminal offence, punishable by imprisonment). Ironically, the era of the free market has led to the most successful secessionist struggle ever waged in India—the secession of the middle and upper classes to a country of their own, somewhere up in the stratosphere where they merge with the rest of the world's elite. This Kingdom in the Sky is a complete universe in itself, hermetically sealed from the rest of India. It has its own newspapers, films, television programmes, morality plays, transport systems, malls and intellectuals. And in case you are beginning to think it's all joy-joy, you're wrong. It also has its own tragedies, its own environmental issues (parking problems, urban air pollution); its own class struggles. An organisation called Youth for Equality, for example, has taken up the issue of Reservations, because it feels Upper Castes are discriminated against by India's pulverised Lower Castes. It has its own People's Movements and candle-light vigils (Justice for Jessica, the model who was shot in a bar) and even its own People's Car (the Wagon for the Volks launched by the Tata Group recently). It even has its own dreams that take the form of TV advertisements in which Indian CEOs (smeared with Fair & Lovely Face Cream, Men's) buy over international corporations, including an imaginary East India Company. They are ushered into their plush new offices by fawning white women (who look as though they're longing to be laid, the final prize of conquest) and applauding white men, ready to make way for the new kings. Meanwhile, the crowd in the stadium roars to its feet (with credit cards in its pockets) chanting 'India! India!' But there is a problem, and the problem is lebensraum. A Kingdom needs its lebensraum. Where will the Kingdom in the Sky find lebensraum? The Sky Citizens look towards the Old Nation. They see Adivasis sitting on the bauxite mountains of Orissa, on the iron ore in Jharkhand and Chhattisgarh. They see the people of Nandigram (Muslims, Dalits) sitting on prime land, which really ought to be a chemical hub. They see thousands of acres of farm land, and think, these really ought to be Special Economic Zones for our industries; they see the rich fields of Singur and know this really ought to be a car factory for the People's Car. They think: that's our bauxite, our iron ore, our uranium. What are those people doing on our land? What's our water doing in their rivers? What's our timber doing in their trees? If you look at a map of India's forests, its mineral wealth and the homelands of the Adivasi people, you'll see that they're stacked up over each other.So, in reality, those who we call poor are the truly wealthy. But when the Sky Citizens cast their eyes over the land, they see superfluous people sitting on precious resources. The Nazis had a phrase for them—überzahligen Essern, superfluous eaters. The struggle for lebensraum, Friedrich Ratzel said after closely observing the struggle between Native Indians and their European colonisers in North America, is an annihilating struggle. Annihilation doesn't necessarily mean the physical extermination of people—by bludgeoning, beating, burning, bayoneting, gassing, bombing or shooting them. (Except sometimes. Particularly when they try to put up a fight. Because then they become Terrorists.) Historically, the most efficient form of genocide has been to displace people from their homes, herd them together and block their access to food and water. Under these conditions, they die without obvious violence and often in far greater numbers. "The Nazis gave the Jews a star on their coats and crowded them into 'reserves'," Sven Lindqvist writes, "just as the Indians, the Hereros, the Bushmen, the Amandabele, and all the other children of the stars had been crowded together. They died on their own when food supply to the reserves was cut off." The historian Mike Davis says that between 12 million and 29 million people starved to death in India in the great famine between 1876 and 1892, while Britain continued to export food and raw material from India. In a democracy, Amartya Sen says, we are unlikely to have Famine. So in place of China's Great Famine, we have India's Great Malnutrition. (India hosts 57 million—more than a third—of the world's undernourished children.) Nandigram 2007: Even the CPI(M) has its own armed militia With the possible exception of China, India today has the largest population of internally displaced people in the world. Dams alone have displaced more than 30 million people. The displacement is being enforced with court decrees or at gunpoint by policemen, by government-controlled militias or corporate thugs. (In Nandigram, even the CPI(M) had its own armed militia.) The displaced are being herded into tenements, camps and resettlement colonies where, cut off from a means of earning a living, they spiral into poverty. In the state of Chhattisgarh, being targeted by corporates for its wealth of iron ore, there's a different technique. In the name of fighting Maoist rebels, hundreds of villages have been forcibly evacuated and almost 40,000 people moved into police camps. The government is arming some of them, and has created Salwa Judum, a 'people's militia'. While the poorest fight the poorest, in conditions that approach civil war, the Tata and Essar groups have been quietly negotiating for the rights to mine iron ore in Chhattisgarh. Can we establish a connection? We wouldn't dream of it. Even though the Salwa Judum was announced a day after the Memorandum of Understanding between the Tata Group and the government was signed. It's not surprising that very little of this account of events makes it into the version of the New India currently on the market. That's because what is on sale is another form of denial—the creation of what Robert Jay Lifton calls a "counterfeit universe". In this universe, systemic horrors are converted into temporary lapses, attributable to flawed individuals, and a more 'balanced' happier world is presented in place of the real one. The balance is spurious: often Union and Progress are set off against each other, a liberal-secular critique of the Union project being used to legitimise the depredations of the Progress project. Those at the top of the food chain, those who have no reason to want to alter the status quo, are most likely to be the manufacturers of the "counterfeit universe".Their job is to patrol the border, diffuse rage, delegitimise anger, and broker a ceasefire. Consider the response of Shahrukh Khan to a question about Narendra Modi. "I don't know him personally...I have no opinion...," he says. "Personally they have never been unkind to me." Ramachandra Guha, liberal historian and founding member of the New India Foundation, a corporate-funded trust, advises us in his book—as well as in a series of highly publicised interviews—that the Gujarat government is not really fascist, and the genocide was just an aberration that has corrected itself after elections. Editors and commentators in the 'secular' national press, having got over their outrage at the Gujarat genocide, now assess Modi's administrative skills, which most of them are uniformly impressed by. The editor of The Hindustan Times said, "Modi may be a mass murderer, but he's our mass murderer", and went on to air his dilemmas about how to deal with a mass murderer who is also a "good" chief minister. In this 'counterfeit' version of India, in the realm of culture, in the new Bollywood cinema, in the boom in Indo-Anglian literature, the poor, for the most part, are simply absent. They have been erased in advance. (They only put in an appearance as the smiling beneficiaries of Micro-Credit Loans, Development Schemes and charity meted out by NGOs.) Last summer, I happened to wander into a cool room in which four beautiful young girls with straightened hair and porcelain skin were lounging, introducing their puppies to one another. One of them turned to me and said, "I was on holiday with my family and I found an old essay of yours about dams and stuff? I was asking my brother if he knew about what a bad time these Dalits and Adivasis were having, being displaced and all.... I mean just being kicked out of their homes 'n stuff like that? And you know, my brother's such a jerk, he said they're the ones who are holding India back. They should be exterminated. Can you imagine?" The trouble is, I could. I can. The puppies were sweet. I wondered whether dogs could ever imagine exterminating each other. They're probably not progressive enough. That evening, I watched Amitabh Bachchan on TV, appearing in a commercial for The Times of India's 'India Poised' campaign. The TV anchor introducing the campaign said it was meant to inspire people to leave behind the "constraining ghosts of the past". To choose optimism over pessimism. "There are two Indias in this country," Amitabh Bachchan said, in his famous baritone. One India is straining at the leash, eager to spring forth and live up to all the adjectives that the world has been recently showering upon us. The Other India is the leash. One India says, "Give me a chance and I'll prove myself." The Other India says, "Prove yourself first, and maybe then, you'll have a chance." One India lives in the optimism of our hearts; the Other India lurks in the scepticism of our minds. One India wants, the Other India hopes... One India leads, the Other India follows. These conversions are on the rise. With each passing day, more and more people from the Other India are coming over to this side. ... And quietly, while the world is not looking, a pulsating, dynamic, new India is emerging. And finally: Now in our 60th year as a free nation, the ride has brought us to the edge of time's great precipice.... And one India, a tiny little voice in the back of the head is looking down at the ravine and hesitating. The Other India is looking up at the sky and saying it's time to fly. Here is the counterfeit universe laid bare.It tells us that the rich don't have a choice (There Is No Alternative), but the poor do. They can choose to become rich. If they don't, it's because they are choosing pessimism over optimism, hesitation over confidence, want over hope. In other words, they're choosing to be poor. It's their fault. They are weak. (And we know what the seekers of lebensraum think of the weak.) They are the 'Constraining Ghost of the Past'. They're already ghosts. "Within an ongoing counterfeit universe," Robert Jay Lifton says, "genocide becomes easy, almost natural." The poor, the so-called poor, have only one choice: to resist or to succumb. Bachchan is right: they are crossing over, quietly, while the world's not looking. Not to where he thinks, but across another ravine, to another side. The side of armed struggle. From there they look back at the Tsars of Development and mimic their regretful slogan: 'There Is No Alternative.' They have watched the great Gandhian people's movements being reduced and humiliated, floundering in the quagmire of court cases, hunger strikes and counter-hunger strikes. Perhaps these many million Constraining Ghosts of the Past wonder what advice Gandhi would have given the Indians of the Americas, the slaves of Africa, the Tasmanians, the Herero, the Hottentots, the Armenians, the Jews of Germany, the Muslims of Gujarat. Perhaps they wonder how they can go on hunger strike when they're already starving. How they can boycott foreign goods when they have no money to buy any goods. How they can refuse to pay taxes when they have no earnings. Stamp out the Naxals: They have no place in Shining India People who have taken to arms have done so with full knowledge of what the consequences of that decision will be. They have done so knowing that they are on their own. They know that the new laws of the land criminalise the poor and conflate resistance with terrorism. (Peaceful activists are ogws—overground workers.) They know that appeals to conscience, liberal morality and sympathetic press coverage will not help them now. They know no international marches, no globalised dissent, no famous writers will be around when the bullets fly. Hundreds of thousands have broken faith with the institutions of India's democracy. Large swathes of the country have fallen out of the government's control. (At last count, it was supposed to be 25 per cent). The battle stinks of death, it's by no means pretty. How can it be when the helmsman of the army of Constraining Ghosts is the ghost of Chairman Mao himself? (The ray of hope is that many of the footsoldiers don't know who he is. Or what he did. More Genocide Denial? Maybe). Are they Idealists fighting for a Better World? Well... anything is better than annihilation. The Prime Minister has declared that the Maoist resistance is the "single largest internal security threat". There have even been appeals to call out the army. The media is agog with breathless condemnation. Here's a typical newspaper report. Nothing out of the ordinary. Stamp out the Naxals, it is called. This government is at last showing some sense in tackling Naxalism. Less than a month ago, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh asked state governments to "choke" Naxal infrastructure and "cripple" their activities through a dedicated force to eliminate the "virus". It signalled a realisation that Naxalism must be stamped out through enforcement of law, rather than wasteful expense on development. "Choke". "Cripple". "Virus". "Infested". "Eliminate". "Stamp Out". Yes. The idea of extermination is in the air. And people believe that faced with extermination, they have the right to fight back.By any means necessary. Perhaps they've been listening to the grasshoppers. This is an abridged version of a lecture delivered by Arundhati Roy in Istanbul on January 18, 2008, to commemorate the first anniversary of the assassination of Hrant Dink, editor of the Turkish-Armenian paper, Agos. From jeebesh at sarai.net Wed Jan 30 20:06:25 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh Bagchi) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 19:36:25 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Listening To Grasshoppers [Arundhati Roy] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <285E226A-11EE-4E1D-8C10-646A3F1AECEF@sarai.net> On 30-Jan-08, at 6:10 PM, Nitesh Bhatnagar wrote: > Armed with this reading of history, is it reasonable to worry about > whether a country that is poised on the threshold of "progress" is > also poised on the threshold of genocide? Somewhere last 200 years seems to be showing this link. It will worthwhile to think how this works out. We can count numerous instance of "out of my way" world views played out with enormous violence. How do we think this? By counting instances of such occurrences, do we get a better grip on this? or accumulation makes us think that this is the only way the worlds are made and thus the only way for future world making? Is there possible other ways of making the world? warmly jeebesh From asitredsalute at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 20:42:31 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 10:12:31 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Listening To Grasshoppers [Arundhati Roy] In-Reply-To: <285E226A-11EE-4E1D-8C10-646A3F1AECEF@sarai.net> References: <285E226A-11EE-4E1D-8C10-646A3F1AECEF@sarai.net> Message-ID: reading of shows us that man kind has gone through genocides plunder slavery and occupations also history shows the the underdogs have allways rebelled and concessions were extracted from the opressors and ruling classes the french and bolshevik revolutions are case in point offcourse a better world is possible if we transcend this ruthless accumelation and coomodified world thats is transcending cap[italism and market society we have to remove the objective conditions for exploitation and genocide and that needs a sense of historical optimism i strogly believe a socialist world is possible asit On Jan 30, 2008 9:36 AM, Jeebesh Bagchi wrote: > > On 30-Jan-08, at 6:10 PM, Nitesh Bhatnagar wrote: > > > Armed with this reading of history, is it reasonable to worry about > > whether a country that is poised on the threshold of "progress" is > > also poised on the threshold of genocide? > > Somewhere last 200 years seems to be showing this link. It will > worthwhile to think how this works out. We can count numerous > instance of "out of my way" world views played out with enormous > violence. How do we think this? By counting instances of such > occurrences, do we get a better grip on this? or accumulation makes > us think that this is the only way the worlds are made and thus the > only way for future world making? > > Is there possible other ways of making the world? > > warmly > jeebesh > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 22:04:06 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:34:06 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Transmediale Berlin 08 Message-ID: This is part of Transmediale. There is live stream and IRC details below. Hope to see you in person or on the IRC thingummy... -Naeem #################################### Thursday 31/1 13:00 Session 2: Embedding Fear: The Internet And The Spectacle Of Heightened Alert @ Conference Moderator: Brian Holmes [us] Participants: Loretta Napoleoni [us], Naeem Mohaiemen [bd], Yassin Musharbash [de] Respondent: Thorsten Schilling [de] The Internet's 'open system' makes it not only the world's most powerful tool of conspiratorial narrative generation but also creates the broadest 'extranational' platform for the creation and dissemination of political, military and corporate propaganda. Any form of authorship. Any group (or individual) whether legitimate, clandestine or fraudulent with access to the net may proclaim any act, real or imagined. Within the current atmospheres of induced security, economies of fear and pending 'terrorist' action, what are the key roles played by the Internet in defining the legitimacy of a perceived threat? How are the complex issued of identity and culture corrupted when freedom of access and communication become entangled in an ill-defined international 'war on terror' fought to a large extent online? The conference takes place at Auditorium. #################################### transmediale.08 - festival for art and digital culture berlin January 30 - February 03, 2008 Haus der Kulturen der Welt CONSPIRE ... Live streams and moderated IRC chats at transmediale.08 If you are not able to join transmediale's 'Conspire ...' conference and Bilderberg Salon artist sessions BBT and transmediale.08 invites you to join in online - real time - via IRC and video streams. A remote backdoor to the speakers and performers of transmediale.08 - the moderated online discussion is open to partcipants who can not join us in Berlin. Two streams will be available; one live from the conference hall (HKW Auditorium) and from the Bilderberg Salon. Every stream will have its own IRC (Internet Relay Chat) chatroom ... see below. We are inviting you to JOIN US and JOIN IN! IRC chats will be displayed next to the panel in each conference and keynote lecture. IRC moderators will bring the questions and comments from the chat to the onsite event. We would appreciate if you can spend some of your internet time with us and tell your friends about this vivid interaction. We will be meeting on irc from Wednesday, January 30, until Sunday, February 3, 2008. The VIDEO STREAM addresses are: Conference Stream: http://giss.tv:8000/transmediale08.ogg LIve from the conferences and key note presentations and Bilderberg Stream: http://giss.tv:8000/bilderberg.ogg An experimental stream hosted by bots and people, playing with protocols of communication between IRC and realtime video streams. We ... BBT, are more paranoid than the bots, and technology is slipping out of control... You can play these stream sfrom any platform using VLC (Videolan Player), download it here: http://videolan.org Come to chat with us and check the transmediale.08 website for possible updates of this information: http://www.transmediale.de/ We will be streaming with an open source encoder, promoting the use of ogg theora and calling for diversity on the web. Gratitude to all developers and streaming communities who made the use of this free technology possible and special thanks for the support of giss.tv, goto10.org, v2_Institute for the Unstable Media and Freej. CHAT ROOMS: http://irc.goto10.org #tm08conference According to schedule of conferences and keynote lectures: http://www.transmediale.de/site/programme/conference-and-keynotes/ We will be discussing the key issues of each conference and hold discussions that may arise in the channel. With the help of FOSS bots we can query online resources (wikipedia, google, wordnet). #tm08bilderberg Daily: http://www.transmediale.de/site/programm/salon/ We will document what goes on in the sessions of the Bilderberg Salon and our progress with HB (half brother) tele-robotic hand controlled remotely by IRC participants that inputs simple commands: North, South, East, West.. #tm08tech You can find us here from now on, come around if you have questions regarding the stream or other technical issues. Move to this channel if things are not working - PLEASE do not ask about tech issues in the program IRCs. The web interfaces to the IRC channels are: http://pjirc.goto10.org/?channel=tm08conference http://pjirc.goto10.org/?channel=tm08bilderberg http://pjirc.goto10.org/?channel=tm08tech This is an official invitation to the events! We would like to ask you to confirm your participation for the conference chat rooms you would be interested to attend. Best wishes , HB, fv, aleij, xname, tiarex, pueblo, mh,BB BBT Big Brother Team we_are_observing ... transmediale.08 CONSPIRE ... From yasir.media at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 01:42:10 2008 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?WINDOWS-1256?Q?=ED=C7_=D3=D1_~_yasir_?=) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:12:10 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] what is to be done? In-Reply-To: References: <48c2916d0801212324m25c66ab3p5bf16ace5ec90864@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0801240626y7332fb6v713a915bf89a7c1a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0801301212m5e2e7856ube79ac4fa29737be@mail.gmail.com> i find it wonderful that all of you have spoken up. good health to the list ! i prefer a ternary tigit to to the digital binary, call it optimism some processes take longer and are not apparent on the list and not even predictable/predicatable so lets not be convinced of the uselessness of engagement thats the third category the mutually engaging kind is the first and the truebred troll the third, and even this has a ternary truth value on an unmoderated discussion list (there appear no indication, but suggestion of changing) people cant be shut up for useless discussion, you cant do anything, unless people decide to migrate one solution here is for recipients, individuals, subscribers to filter or tag - i think to do this does not impinge on the list, the poster or ethics - if theres something useful one catches it in someone else's response. another way is to respond in a metaphysically absurd way - which is a highly fascinating end engaging strategy and the last is to curse with ignorance, banish to silence - that is, ignore, aka dont feed the troll. (thanks nishant) it is newcomers to list and compulsive arguers who sustain the worst cliched labels and categories. the cliched argument may not be useful in a discussion but again there are shades. we are ourselves struggling to break patterns we get set in. some are not trying, or have given up long ago, some have simply forgotten, or never known, some are about uncovering, some will never know - some rums felt the unknown unknowns of abu pentgonia when he fell thinking it must be pataphysics. best y From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 15:55:59 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 15:55:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On suicide, Wandhama and, perhaps, everything else in life - Rahul Pandita Message-ID: <6353c690801300225n15962161u4f3a2624222e48ca@mail.gmail.com> On suicide, Wandhama and, perhaps, everything else in life- Rahul Pandita *This evening, a middle-aged man with receding hairline jumped from the top floor of my office building and died on the floor, next to a promotional board of Johnie Walker which reads: Keep walking. His one shoe lay near his motionless body. People watched him from a distance. By the time someone called the police, a pool of blood was created beneath his face. The man was wearing a jacket and a pair of blue jeans. While I sat in my office, discussing literature with a friend, the man must have decided to take the final plunge. I don't know who this man is. Probably he was not an employee of any of the offices in the building. Probably he was an outsider who just climbed the fifth floor to end his life. Probably he was tired of life. Probably he loved it too much. * Read the entire piece by Rahul Pandita at - http://sanitysucks.blogspot.com/ Also Read - *Kashmiris In Exile * *Note: Please do comment on the article on the blog.* *Thanks* *Aditya Raj Kaul* *New Delhi* From cahen.x at levels9.com Tue Jan 29 03:54:24 2008 From: cahen.x at levels9.com (xavier cahen) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 23:24:24 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] ))))) radiolist.org ((((( Plate-forme sonore des arts visuels ))))) | ))))) visual arts noise platform ((((( 14 Message-ID: <479E5618.9020509@levels9.com> RadioList.org Plate-forme sonore des arts visuels / visual arts noise platform (((((((((.)))))))))) # 14 .((((( Abonnement RSS : podcast, ipodder, sage, etc... http://radiolist.org/index.php?feed=rss2 .((((( Abonnement à la newsletter http://radiolist.org Enjoy ! Vous avez dit : Les colonnes de Buren ! )))))))).(((((((((( Face à l’état de délabrement de son installation, le sculpteur français Daniel Buren a évoqué, en décembre 2007, la destruction des colonnes, si rien n’était entrepris rapidement par l’état, pour leur rénovation. Ces colonnes rayées avaient soulevées une forte polémique lors de leur installation en 1986, qu’en est-il aujourd’hui 20 ans après ? Petit micro trottoir au Palais Royal sur une œuvre en péril… Emission réalisée par : Zhao Biru http://www.radiolist.org/?p=184 Celui qui oublie où mène le chemin #4 )))))))).(((((((((( Tout d’abord il faut revenir au fait que le paysage a disparu de mon regard, qu’il m’a fallu le traverser; mais aussi tenir compte que le parcours de distances excessives ne m’intéresse pas. Je pourrais donc choisir de tourner en rond pour découvrir continuellement un nouveau point de départ. Ce dernier devient alors porteur de bien des réflexions sur la relativité de l’espace et du temps. “Ecotone” est une installation présentée pour la première fois au FRAC Lorraine en décembre 2007. Un écotone est une zone de transition écologique entre deux écosystèmes. Emission réalisée par : François Martig http://www.radiolist.org/?p=181 Divagations 7 : mémoires II )))))))).(((((((((( Ces « divagations » ne sont ni des études savantes – ni même des études, et savantes encore moins – sur des œuvres qui m’ont, à un moment où à un autre, profondément bouleversé. De l’une à l’autre peu de points communs, si ce n’est, peut-être, un principe d’incertitude – tableaux, photos, peintres et photographes connus ou inconnus ne seront pas là tout à fait dans la norme, dans l’échelle, dans l’allure ou dans le goût. Et pour le reste, comme dirait l’autre, on en reparlera. Emission réalisée par : Vincent Gille http://www.radiolist.org/?p=186 Celui qui oublie où mène le chemin #3 )))))))).(((((((((( “Celui qui oublie où mène le chemin” s’égare dans les récits de voyage… tout est à reconstruire par bribes, mais au final on est loin du but et c’est tant mieux. Un extrait de la bande son tirée de l’installation “Correspondances” à CODE/Buro à Bruxelles en octobre 2007, la situation particulière de la galerie (sous la gare de La Chapelle) a été le moteur de cette récolte de récits sonores. Emission réalisée par : François Martig http://www.radiolist.org/?p=180 Art-maniac : Alfred Kubin : Souvenirs d’un pays à moitié oublié )))))))).(((((((((( Emission spéciale. Art Maniac se déplace, fait le guide et la lecture d’une exposition mais propose toujours une bibliographie en rapport avec la visite. Emission réalisée par : Fabrice Decamps http://www.radiolist.org/?p=182 Voix off/on ~ Je ne me souviens plus de ce qu’il m’avais dit ~ )))))))).(((((((((( Des voix off ayant perdues leurs images ou ne les ayant jamais trouvées, prennent ici leur autonomie. | Emission réalisée par : Edward Didenhoven http://www.radiolist.org/?p=179 Art-maniac : Le roman de la peinture moderne )))))))).(((((((((( Quand la bibliothèque ferme ses portes commençe alors Art-maniac, une émission sur les ouvrages consacrés aux arts visuels et sonores. Lorsque les spectateurs disaient à Picasso qu’ils adoraient ce qu’il faisait mais qu’ils n’y comprenaient rien, que c’était du chinois, ce dernier répondait que le chinois c’était comme tout ça s’apprenait. Tel est donc le but d’Art-maniac, faire découvrir l’art. Les ouvrages sont issus de la bibliothèque municipale de Nogent-sur-Marne. Emission réalisée par : Fabrice Decamps http://www.radiolist.org/?p=178 Les K.Kliniques : C’est mort )))))))).(((((((((( Pour cette émission de décembre 2007, les k.kliniques, duo de performeuses sonore, vous présentent “C’est mort”. Emission réalisée par : Caroline Delieutraz et Justine Abittan http://www.radiolist.org/?p=177 Sound & Vision # 4 : Paris nous appartient vs Mauvais sang vs Le dernier tango à Paris )))))))).(((((((((( Un bootleg (parfois appelé mashup ou tout simplement medley) est un détournement musical, l’art de mixer deux chansons pour en faire une troisième. Ici le détournement sonore est cinématographique. Un lieu, un lien. Deux films : une même ville. Ici Paris. Emission réalisée par : Pierre Ménard http://www.radiolist.org/?p=176 Assemblée Générale : Up8, Novembre 2007, Saint Denis )))))))).(((((((((( Cette pièce est construite autour de prises de sons réalisées par moi-même au cours de différentes assemblées générales qui se sont déroulées les semaines dernières à l’Université de Paris 8. J’y ai ajouté, en plus du travail de traitement, de montage et de mixage, des éléments musicaux joués en direct ou programmés. J’aimerais explorer avec ce travail des contrées connexes ou le son comme vecteur d’information se transforme graduellement en fait sonore doté d’autres qualités d’écoute. Emission réalisée par : Guillaume Loizillon http://www.radiolist.org/?p=175 -- RadioList.org (((((((.))))))) xavier cahen administrateur xavier.cahen at radiolist.org http://www.radiolist.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From difusion at medialab-prado.es Mon Jan 28 17:34:57 2008 From: difusion at medialab-prado.es (Difusion Medialab-Prado) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:04:57 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_Convocatoria_/_O?= =?iso-8859-1?q?pen_Call=3A_Redes_digitales_y_espacio_f=EDsico_/_Digital_N?= =?iso-8859-1?q?etworks_and_Physical_Space?= Message-ID: <479DC4E9.40105@medialab-prado.es> (English below) *Última semana para presentar proyectos y comunicaciones: * *2º Encuentro Inclusiva-net: Redes digitales y espacio físico* Dirigido por Juan Martín Prada Participan: Julian Oliver, Lalya Gaye, Hackitectura, Michelle Teran *Medialab-Prado, Madrid. Del 3 al 14 de marzo de 2008* Abierta* hasta el 30 de enero* * Última semana para presentar proyectos para su desarrollo colaborativo en un taller de producción de dos semanas, que incluye además seminarios, conferencias y minitalleres.* Los proyectos y comunicaciones presentadas deberán abordar la *relación entre redes digitales y espacio físico*: cómo ambas esferas, la digital y la física, dialogan emergiendo de esta relación nuevas formas artísticas y de relaciones humanas. Los núcleos de trabajo principales de esta convocatoria son: la web geoespacial y la web geosemántica, la web 2.0 local, las redes hiperlocales y el periodismo hiperlocal, place blogging, el diseño de geonavegadores (geobrowsers) alternativos, las propuestas de urban markup, las herramientas de cartografía y mapeado tipo open source, las redes móviles y redes locales inalámbricas, las propuestas de arte locativo(locative art) y juego locativo (locative gaming), etc. *Se financiará viaje (para una persona en el caso de colectivos) y estancia para los proyectos y comunicaciones seleccionadas. Más información y bases de la convocatoria en http://www.inclusiva-net.org* ------ Open Call: Last week to present projects and papers: *2nd Inclusiva-net Meeting: Digital Networks and Physical Space* Directed by Juan Martín Prada With the participation of: Julian Oliver, Lalya Gaye, Hackitectura, Michelle Teran *Medialab-Prado, Madrid. from 3 to 14 March 2008* * Deadline: January 30* *Last week to present projects to be colaboratively developed within a two week production workshop, which will also include seminars, lectures and mini-workshops* Submitted projects and papers should deal with the *relationship between digital networks and physical space*: how both spheres -digital and physical- dialogue between each other, thus causing the emergence of new artistic forms and new ways of human relationship. The core topics for this call are Geospatial Web and Geosemantic Web, local Web 2.0, hyperlocal networks and hyperlocal journalism,place blogging, the design of alternative geobrowsers, urban markup proposals, open source types of cartographic and mapping tools, projects for mobile networks and wireless local networks, locative art and locative gaming projects, etc. *Medialab-Prado will cover one person's travel and accomodation expenses per selected project or paper. More information and application guidelines at http://www.inclusiva-net.org * -- Medialab Prado Área de Las Artes, Ayuntamiento de Madrid Plaza de las Letras Alameda, 15 28014 Madrid Tfno. +34 913 692 303 difusion at medialab-prado.es www.medialab-prado.es -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Wed Jan 30 14:01:36 2008 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (netEX) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 09:31:36 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_netEX=5Fcalls_an?= =?iso-8859-1?q?d_deadlines_-_February_2008?= Message-ID: <20080130093136.54003166.80B21303@192.168.0.3> netEX: calls, deadlines & news February 2008 ------------------------------------- [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne newsletter contents 1. calls & deadlines 15 Calls: February deadlines external 08 Calls: ongoing external/internal 2 network news NewMediaFest2007 ------------------------------------- 1. Calls & deadlines ---> [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne www.nmartproject.net ------------------------------------------------ February 2008 deadlines: external ------------------------------------------------ 29 February Freewaves Festival Los Angeles/USA http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=219 29 February International Artists Residency Bialystok/Poland http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=217 29 February "networked art" at Aferro Gallery Newark/NY USA http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=198 22 February Art Video screening Örebro/Sweden http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=175 15 February Theory & Practice, show at Aferro Gallery Newark/NJ/USA http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=182 15 February Courtisane Film and New Media Festival Gent/Belgium http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=173 15 February Zeppelin 2008 Festival Barcelona/Spain http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=154 15 February ambiEnt Festival Brescia/Italy - mankind & nature http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=197 15 February Sonic Fragments: Narrative and Mediation in Sound Art Princetown/USA http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=209 12 February Très Courts Film Festival Paris 2008 http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=192 8 February ICMC - International Computer Music Conference Belfast/UK http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=208 3 February Video festival Bochum/Germany http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=202 2 February VideoEX - experimental film & video festival Zurich/CH http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=189 1 February Rijksakademie Research Residency Amsterdam/NL http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=185 1 February Bangkok Experimental Film Festival 2008 http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=191 ----------------------------------------------- Ongoing calls: external/internal -->Projects for FILE LABO Sao Paulo/Brazil -->Films and video screenings Sioux City (USA) -->Laisle screenings Rio de Janeiro/Brazil -->Videos for Helsinki based video gallery - 00130 Gallery -->Web based works for 00130 Gallery Helsinki/Finland -->Project: Repetition as a Model for Progression by Marianne Holm Hansen -->Raw Video New York/NY (USA) -->US webjournal Atomic Unicorn seeks netart and video art for coming editions -->* Netart for JavaMuseum - Forum for Internet Technology in Contemp. Art and more deadlines on http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?page_id=4 ----------------------------------------------- 2. network news // NewMediaFest2007 http://www.newmediafest.org is happy to announce the collaboration with 3rd CeC & CaC - India International Centre New Dehli/India 15-16-17 February 2008 which will be presenting selections from CologneOFF III - Toon! Toon! art cartoons and animated narratives http://coff.newmediafest.org/blog/?page_id=15 and Cinematheque - Slowtime/Dreamtime http://cinema.nmartproject.net/blog/?page_id=19 curated by Wilfried Agricola de Cologne \\ // In March 2008, NewMediaFest2007 is planning to present "The Best of CologneOFF" - selections from the festival editions I-III and Cinematheque - Slowtime/Dreamtime on Videosalon 3 - "Walls without Boarders" at French Cultural Centre André Malraux in Sarajevo/Bosnia-Hercegovia 8-21 March 2008 \\ ----------------------------------------------- NetEX - networked experience http://netex.nmartproject.net # calls in the external section--> http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?cat=3 # calls in the internal section--> http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?cat=1 ----------------------------------------------- # This newsletter is also released on http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?cat=9 # NetEx - networked experiences http://netex.nmartproject.net is a free information service powered by [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne www.nmartproject.net - the experimental platform for Art and New Media from Cologne/Germany # info & contact: info (at) nmartproject.net _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From mitoo at sarai.net Thu Jan 31 11:44:46 2008 From: mitoo at sarai.net (Mitoo Das) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:44:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] A discussion on Media Nagar 03 Message-ID: <47A16756.3090607@sarai.net> A discussion on Media Nagar 03 Date: 1st February Time: 6:00 pm Venue: Oxford Book Store, Statesmen Building 148, Barakhamba Road, CP New Delhi -110001 The Media Nagar Series is a Hindi publication from Sarai. It started off as an annual publication of the Publics and Practices in the History of Present (PPHP) project of Sarai in 2004. The work undertaken by researchers within the project were compiled and transformed into the Media Nagar 01. It also included contributions by others working in the same field outside Sarai. The second in the series, Media Nagar 02, became an independent publication of Sarai and it concentrated mainly around the theme of Media and the City. Researchers and scholars across the world were invited to provide with articles. Fundamentally this was an effort to prepare a resource material for the Hindi medium researchers, students and media practitioners. Media Nagar 03 is focused on network culture. Its main objective is to explore the notions of network and also to understand its functioning, how it is formed and its impact on the social order. Besides, it has articles on other media forms and activities such as film, music, print, media market, legal regime, and other new media forms. Now that Media Nagar 03 is out, it is a good time for contributors, old and new and well wishers to gather and deliberate critically about the shape and conception of this book along with the rest in the series. The panel includes: Debashree Mukherjee, Film Scholar, JNU Ramprakash Dwivedi, Coordinator, Deptt. of Mass Communication and Journalism, Dr. Bhimrao Ambedkar College, DU Rahul Pandita, Journalist, Writer, Blogger and Novelist Anand Pradhan, Associate Professor, IIMC, Delhi Sanjeev Kumar, Writer & Critic, DU Arun Maheshwari, CEO, Vani Prakashan Delhi Sarai invites you to be a part of this session. Best, Mitoo Das Programme Coordinator Sarai, CSDS _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From iram at sarai.net Thu Jan 31 13:08:48 2008 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:08:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] 'Ismat Apa ke Naam' in Aligarh Message-ID: <47A17B08.5080905@sarai.net> FYI... =========================================== Dear Friends The IG Khan Memorial Trust is happy to invite you to a fundraising performance of Ismat Apa ke Naam, featuring Naseeruddin Shah, Ratna Pathak Shah and Heeba Shah, on Feb 4th at Kennedy Auditorium, Aligarh. Donor Passes for the event can be collected at Aligarh by calling (0)9897122187. Please do try and make it for the event if you can. Even if you cant be in Aligarh on this date, you can still help us in our fundraising efforts by making a donation yourself and encouraging others to do the same. All proceeds will go towards our projects to assist rickshaw pullers and their families in Aligarh. For more information, please see attached flyer or write to us for a hard copy. Contributions can be made by cheque/DD favouring The IG Khan Memorial Trust, payable at the State Bank of India, New Delhi and sent to Samazaar, Lal Diggi Road, Civil Lines, Aligarh, UP 202002 or c/o Sameen Adeeb 15, Abul Fazal Apartments, 22, Vasundhara Enclave New Delhi-96 With many thanks for your enduring support, Taran and Sameen for the IG Khan Memorial Trust _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From anoopkheri at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 16:35:16 2008 From: anoopkheri at gmail.com (anoop kumar) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:35:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Inviting for the workshop on Dalit students' politics and the release of INSIGHT next issue Message-ID: Dear Friends, Jaibheem! Insight Editorial Collective cordially invites you to the release of the next issue of *'Insight: Young Voices'* on *3rd February* (Sunday). The release will be followed by a *workshop on 'Dalit Students' Politics: Challenges and Directions'*, where Dalit student activists from different universities/institutions will share their campus experiences as well as deliberate on the different issues concerning Dalit students. The recent report of Prof. S.K. Thorat Committee exposing the caste discrimination faced by the Dalit students in All India Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS) and complete inaction from the Indian Government has reinforced the need for a vibrant and autonomous Dalit students' activism. Dalit movement has a long history of youth participation. However, due to various reasons, a strong Dalit students' politics, that could have a major impact both inside as well as outside the campus, has not emerged. Though every educational campus of this country is simmering with Dalit Consciousness, yet it will take some time and huge efforts to channelise Dalit students' energies towards our common cause. Being itself the product of Dalit students' activism, *'Insight: Young Voices'* is committed towards a strong and autonomous Dalit student politics. Apart from regular articles and interviews on various issues, the cover story of our next issue of *'Insight: Young Voices' *tries to map the emergence and role of *Dalit students' politics in Jawaharlal Nehru University, Hyderabad Central University and Meerut University (UP),* as these have become one of the most important centres of Dalit students' mobilisation and articulation. Date: - 3rd February 2008 Time: - 2.30 pm Venue: - Qaumi Ekta Trust (Ganesh shankar Vidyarthi Bhawan) 31, Bhai Veer Singh Marg, Gole Market New Delhi – 110001 Sd/- Anoop Kumar Insight Editorial Collective 9313432410 From pkray11 at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 20:49:43 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:49:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The devil in the White House kills a million in IRAQ Message-ID: <98f331e00801310719o18c19d85i4b80f55b6374f917@mail.gmail.com> Accordig to a joint study by a London based agency Opinion Research Business (ORB) and an Iraqi agency Independent Institute for Administration and Civil Society Studies (IIACSS), more than ONE MILLION Iraqis had lost their lives as a result of violence between March 2003 and August 2007. This study was published on Wednesday and widely reported in leading newspapers across the globe. In a report of the US (in July last year), the population of Iraq was estimated around 27 MILLION. The capital city of Iraq, Baghdad, has witnessed maximum casualities where more than 40 PERCENT FAMILIES HAD LOST ONE MEMBER. Prakash From alice at tank.tv Thu Jan 31 16:13:34 2008 From: alice at tank.tv (Alice O'Reilly) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 10:43:34 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] tank.tv and Videospread at the Roxy Bar and Screen : 06/02/08 8pm Message-ID: <442eb4460801310243y1d36897ds92301534b1c5342d@mail.gmail.com> tank.tv and Videospread at the Roxy Bar and Screen 6th February 2008 8pm Admission Free tank.tv is happy to present Urban I.D. in collaboration with Marseilles based organization Videospread. The programme will be screened at the Roxy Bar and Screen on February 6th 2008 starting at 8pm. The program Urban I.D. explores urban space, the potential it has to influence our vision of the world, the way we imagine our cities and tomorrow's urban landscapes. It is an exploration of video as a way to modify our experience of scale, time duration and attention to our immediate surroundings. The artworks of Christophe Berdaguer & Marie Péjus, Pia Lindman, Kristina Solomoukha and Sylvie Ungauer are both a transposition of reality and a virtual experience. We hope to see you there! Roxy Bar and Screen 128 - 132 Borough High St London SE1 1LB http://www.tank.tv http://www.videospread.com -- - - - - - - - - - - - - tank.tv 2nd Floor Princess House 50 - 60 Eastcastle Street London W1W 8EA alice at tank.tv T: +44 (0)207323 3475 F: +44 (0)207631 4280 http://www.tank.tv - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Now showing: The Whole World Curated by Ian White for www.tank.tv 1st January 2008 - 1st March 2008 Fresh Moves - Out now! Order your copy on www.tank.tv "A significant archive of creative practices in the early years of twenty-first century England" Tyler Coburn, Tomorrow Unlimited --- tank.tv is an inspirational showcase for innovative work in film and video. Dedicated to exhibiting and promoting emerging and established international artists, www.tank.tv acts as a major online gallery and archive for video art. A platform for contemporary moving images. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From foundation.insight at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 18:49:02 2008 From: foundation.insight at gmail.com (INSIGHT FOUNDATION) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 05:19:02 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] Inviting for the workshop on Dalit Students' Politics and the release of Insight next issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8b744b0e0801310519u39986298wa245ccbff90a5b11@mail.gmail.com> Dear Friends, Jaibheem! Insight Editorial Collective cordially invites you to the release of the next issue of *'Insight: Young Voices'* on *3rd February* (Sunday). The release will be followed by a *workshop on 'Dalit Students' Politics: Challenges and Directions'*, where Dalit student activists from different universities/institutions will share their campus experiences as well as deliberate on the different issues concerning Dalit students. The recent report of Prof. S.K. Thorat Committee exposing the caste discrimination faced by the Dalit students in All India Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS) and complete inaction from the Indian Government has reinforced the need for a vibrant and autonomous Dalit students' activism. Dalit movement has a long history of youth participation. However, due to various reasons, a strong Dalit students' politics, that could have a major impact both inside as well as outside the campus, has not emerged. Though every educational campus of this country is simmering with Dalit Consciousness, yet it will take some time and huge efforts to channelise Dalit students' energies towards our common cause. Being itself the product of Dalit students' activism, *'Insight: Young Voices'* is committed towards a strong and autonomous Dalit student politics. Apart from regular articles and interviews on various issues, the cover story of our next issue of *'Insight: Young Voices' *tries to map the emergence and role of *Dalit students' politics in Jawaharlal Nehru University, Hyderabad Central University and Meerut University (UP),* as these have become one of the most important centres of Dalit students' mobilisation and articulation. Date: - 3rd February 2008 Time: - 2.30 pm Venue: - Qaumi Ekta Trust (Ganesh shankar Vidyarthi Bhawan) 31, Bhai Veer Singh Marg, Gole Market New Delhi – 110001 Sd/- Anoop Kumar Insight Editorial Collective 9313432410 From taraprakash at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 03:11:26 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 21:41:26 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Visa God Message-ID: <00d401c84bf5$e9fb2440$0302a8c0@taraprakash> Divine Intervention? Indians Seek Help From the 'Visa God'. By Vauhini Vara. HYDERABAD, India -- Lord Balaji is one of the most-worshiped local incarnations of the Hindu Lord Vishnu. His adherents flock to his many temples to pray for things like happiness, prosperity and fertility. Lately, the deity has grown particularly popular at the once-quiet Chilkur Balaji temple here, where he goes by a new nickname: the Visa God. The temple draws 100,000 visitors a week, many of whom come to pray to Lord Balaji for visas to travel or move to the U.S. and other Western countries. Mohanty Dolagobinda is one of the Visa God's believers. Three years ago, a U.S. consulting company applied for a visa on his behalf. It was rejected. When the company tried again the following year, Mr. Dolagobinda's friends told him to visit the Chilkur Balaji temple ahead of his interview at the U.S. consulate. Weeks later, he sailed through the interview. I've never heard of anyone who's gone to the temple whose visa got rejected," says Mr. Dolagobinda. In the late 1990s, this small temple on the outskirts of Hyderabad -- the capital of the southern state of Andhra Pradesh -- drew just two or three visitors a week. C.S. Gopala Krishna, the 63-year-old head priest of the Chilkur Balaji Temple, wanted more people to come. So he gave Lord Balaji a new identity. I named him the Visa God," he says. Now, Mr. Gopala Krishna's temple is a hot spot. Billboards on the dirt road to the temple advertise English-language schools and visa advisers. Next to the parking lot, vendors hawk souvenirs and fruit. The Visa God's growing celebrity reflects the rising frustration of educated Indians hoping to move West. In recent years, it's become harder to win the employer-sponsored "H-1B" visas that let skilled professionals like engineers work in the U.S. While the U.S. limits the number of H-1Bs granted each year to 65,000, the demand for visas keeps rising. For the fiscal year ended September 2004, it took 11 months for the U.S. government to receive 65,000 applications for H-1B visas; last fiscal year, it took two months. This fiscal year, the U.S. government received more than 65,000 applications in one day. Applications are now assigned a random number, and the first 90,000 to 110,000 are processed and accepted or rejected until the quota is reached. Technology Hub. Hyderabad, a city of seven million once known for its pearl trade, has become a fast-growing technology hub. Indian citizens have been the biggest group of H-1B holders in recent years and Hyderabad has forged ties to U.S. companies such as Microsoft Corp., which employ large numbers of H-1Bs. Companies such as Accenture Ltd. and Dell Inc. have also set up huge development and service centers in the city. That's brought a cultural shift, as young middle-class locals replace traditional Indian clothing with jeans and T-shirts and hang out at newly opened malls and coffee shops. On a recent Saturday evening, as a statue of the flower-draped Visa God sat at the back of the modest temple, a cross-legged Mr. Gopala Krishna took responsibility for the visa fervor. Around him, visitors were speed-walking, heads down, as they made the necessary 11 circles around the temple to gain the favor of the Visa God. The temple was about to close, and some visitors broke into a jog. At other temples, elders bring their children," says Mr. Gopala Krishna. In this temple, children bring their elders. He was born at the temple, where his father was once head priest, and later left to live with relatives in Hyderabad. Mr. Gopala Krishna studied commerce in college and in 1968 started working at Hindustan Lever, a consumer-products giant. In 1999, he came back to the temple to take care of his father, and then became the head priest himself. At the time, the temple attracted few visitors. The temple has been there for at least 100 years with nobody visiting," says Ravi Babu, a longtime Hyderabad resident who runs the local chapter of The Indus Entrepreneurs, a club for entrepreneurs. Wooing Microsoft. By then, Hyderabad was changing. Local officials were on a tear to turn Hyderabad into the next Bangalore, the high-tech capital of the neighboring state of Karnataka. They started referring to Hyderabad as "Cyberabad. They fixed roads and wooed Microsoft and General Electric Co. to set up offices there. Hoping to capitalize on all the activity, technical colleges sprouted up in the city's outskirts near Mr. Gopala Krishna's temple. Students started trickling by on their way home from school; many complained about their failed attempts to secure U.S. visas. That gave the priest an idea to sell the students on the deity by giving him a new persona, "Visa God. Mr. Gopala Krishna counseled the students in English, then told them to walk around the temple 11 times to get their wish. I used to say, 'Go, this time you'll get it,'" he recalls. Soon, Mr. Gopala Krishna started seeing dozens -- then hundreds -- of new visitors a day. In 2005, some local newspapers wrote about the Visa God, just as new U.S. visa restrictions were taking a toll. Mr. Gopala Krishna and his relatives also launched a Web site and a newsletter called Voice of Temples, with features like a primer of sample prayers for help in visa interviews. The temple's popularity surged. Last year, a public battle between Mr. Gopala Krishna's family and the local government, which briefly wanted to take the temple over, only boosted its appeal among the young and subversive. Now devotees of the Visa God say they have to reach the temple by 6 a.m. to avoid the daytime rush. Rajendra Vippagunta, a 28-year-old now working for Amazon.com Inc. in Seattle, visited the temple in 2001 and saw few others. On a more recent visit, he says, "it was really, really jam-packed. Mr. Vippagunta didn't know about the Visa God the first time he visited the temple, but it may have had an effect anyway: The following year, he got a visa to move to the U.S. Mr. Babu of the Indus Entrepreneurs says the appeal of the Visa God boils down to the following: "Even if you're not religious, you say, 'Why not? I can just go and spend a few minutes and get a visa,'" he says. Write to Vauhini Vara at vauhini.vara at wsj.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20071231/7769a281/attachment-0001.html From naziaerum at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 15:08:12 2008 From: naziaerum at gmail.com (nazia erum) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 09:38:12 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] "Tum Apni Job Chodd Rahe Ho Purdafash Ke Liye?" Message-ID: Monday, December 31, 2007 "Tum Apni Job Chodd Rahe Ho Purdafash Ke Liye?"www.purdafash.blogspot.com Was it the question or tone or stare that made me re-consider the most significant decision of my life. Here I was, just off my flight from overseas, convinced that Purdafash was where my heart and future lay rather than the placement from IIM Calcutta. I had spent the past couple of months convincing complete strangers that Purdafash was a sound investment. And now my dad needed the second round of convincing. Settling down with him to an uncomfortable silence, I wondered what provoked such an outraged question from the one person closest to me. I remembered seeing a lady telling her toddler, *"Sadak pe mat bhago beta, gir jaoge."*(Don't run on the road son, you will fall)… And I mentally added, *"Don't run even if you want to run, even if you believe that you can run; for what IF you fall?" * Isn't that what we are teaching daily to our loved ones? Driving them to the right path, the tested path… for what if they fall and get hurt? But do we stop and consider if the attempt is more important than the failure? Does failing make me a failure? Isn't living different than existing? Would I be a winner if I worked in an MNC from 8 to 8? Would it make me socially more respectable if I was to wear a perfectly tailored suit and spent my day in an air-conditioned office doing something I have no heart in?? I was screaming inside. Irrespective of what is going to happen, the child in me today wants to run. He wants to fly, he wants to play and play like there is no tomorrow! And on this note started the Purdafash journey… a journey which has till date frustrated me, exhilarated me, disappointed me and yet has given me a sense of purpose in a way that nothing had till now. Most importantly it has taught me more in a couple of months than two years of MBA did. The journey has had its high points- convincing the angel investor to put in his money, building a team that shared my dream, getting tremendous public support, getting unheard of traffic for an alpha release and finally the rush of doing something of my own. And of course the low points- waiting for the damned bureaucracy to move its feet while getting the company incorporated, waiting for all the people who promised action but did not deliver to actually do something good, staying up till 6.30 in the morning trying to soothe frayed tempers. And I thought the real battles begin once the product is launched!! As I sit down today looking back at an eventful year that has been and looking forward to a year that could be the most defining one of my life, the following words by* *Bob Moawad come to my mind: *"The best day of your life is the one on which you decide your life is your own. No apologies or excuses. No one to lean on, rely on, or blame. The gift is yours - it is an amazing journey - and you alone are responsible for the quality of it. This is the day your life really begins." * *So bring it on 2008, I am ready for my life to begin!!* - Areeb Khan CEO, Purdafash Dot Com www.purdafash.com -- Nazia Erum "The cardinal premise of all journalism . . . is that a cat may look at a king." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20080101/59e2f782/attachment-0001.html From atreyee.m at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 12:30:20 2008 From: atreyee.m at gmail.com (atreyee majumder) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 07:00:20 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] on dynastic feuds on the other side Message-ID: <1944bc230801012253p508fa7b5pb8968ecb150b6d0b@mail.gmail.com> As another chapter of dynastic feuds seem to be unfurling over succession battles within the PPP, Bhutto chieftain openly expresses resentment at the nineteen-year-old Oxford student, Bilwal's crowning. I thought these were interesting reads: http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,,2233955,00.html http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080101.wpakistan02/BNStory/International/home Further, random curiosity about the Bhutto clan took me here A very promising Fatima, daughter of Murtaza Bhutto, Benazir's assassinated brother seems to have been a vociferous critic too. Cheers Atreyee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20080102/89b065ca/attachment-0001.html From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 17:49:52 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 12:19:52 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] ek theee Missis Bhutto Message-ID: <47e122a70801020419h13c265dcj629fc41d1ce2d19b@mail.gmail.com> please press the blog to see and read... with love and peace to all -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From newsgroup at cyrilgupta.com Wed Jan 2 18:08:46 2008 From: newsgroup at cyrilgupta.com (Cyril Gupta) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 12:38:46 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70712252044w2856833cib267b92837e84f07@mail.gmail.com> References: DEFANGED[105750]:<843470.23386.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com><602CC652-A4B4-4C09-9489-CAE87865E02E@sarai.net><007101c8459e$73f2cb20$6602a8c0@taraprakash><6b79f1a70712 " " 232057x73936800hec1aff2a7e06ed0e@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70712252044w2856833cib267b92837e84f07@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Take not the name of lord in vain. ----- Original Message ----- From: Pawan Durani To: Zainab Bawa Cc: reader-list at sarai.net ; Vedavati Jogi Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 10:14 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election Zainab , I hope you would understand that we are discussing people and not God's. I hope you know when to use the word "Pawan Putra" at right time. Should I react in a similar way , you would not like it. Dont be a bad loser ! Pawan On 12/25/07, Zainab Bawa wrote: Dear Pawan, Did you say 'peaceful' and secure state to Gujaratis? Who are these Gujaratis? I am certain that the Gujarati Muslims of Gujarat are as Gujarati as the 'Hindus' that you keep referring to are Gujaratis. Perhaps you should be a bit specific on who these Gujaratis are? I am sure it must be a very peaceful time for Gujaratis post March and April 2002, and that voting under duress is as peaceful as blood pressure and hypertension. I am also waiting for Modi in Delhi. Perhaps then we can witness a peaceful repeat of some events of 1983, this time in the name of an Akhand Gujarat. Jai bharat, Jai Gujarat, Jai Modi, Jai Pawan putra, Yours truly, Zainab (gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 10:27 AM, Pawan Durani < pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote: Modi's victory is a victory of Hindus as almost everyone had started categorising Hindus as someone who have terrorised muslims in Gujarat. Modi not only gave good governance , he laso gave a peaceful and secure state to Gujaratis. His victory is victory to all Gujaratis irrespective of being Hindus , muslims or Parsis. The Good governance wins , the respect of majority community wins , the confidence and security to minorties wins. The Psuedosecularists lost all. This time it was Gujarat .... We all are waiting for Modi in Delhi....just few months to go. On 12/24/07, Zainab Bawa wrote: Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclear as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you yourself have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus are not Hindus. I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting that Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'? Again, apologies for nagging you. Cheers, Zainab (confused gujju ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com> wrote: > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani > be > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal > for > floating her own party against BJP? > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have > won, Hindus have > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth > next time. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi at hotmail.com> > To: < reader-list at sarai.net>; < tapasrayx at gmail.com> > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question. > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars! > > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > > vedavati > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. List archive: -------------------------------------------------------- Public Software Library India Pvt Ltd 76/2, 1st Floor, Isckon Temple Road Garhi, East of Kailash New Delhi-110065 India Ph: 91-11-26486289/88 Mobile: 91-9313330798 Website: http://www.itbix.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20080102/dd924276/attachment-0001.html From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 19:05:40 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 13:35:40 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir To Have it's own currency : J&K Govt Finance Minister In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70801012043s6ae7d15dv34451d174a7118e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70801012043s6ae7d15dv34451d174a7118e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801020535r5d2167d7h4f6f19a629b33492@mail.gmail.com> *" No ,this statement is not from a separatist leader but from Hon Minister of Finance , J&K Govt. Do some Pandits still trust the secular and nationalistic agenda of Kashmirs Majority community.........smell the coffee with some katlams... "* ** *Kashmir To Have it's own currency : J&K Govt Finance Minister * http://etalaat.net/english/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4412&Itemid=1 *Ozair Nissar* *Srinagar, Jan 01:* Stating that Kashmir has been fighting hard for its identity for more than last five hundred years, State Finance Minister Tariq Hamid Karra today said that the idea of self-rule will empower Kashmir with its own currency. Asked by reporters at the J&K Bank's calendar launch Monday, that when will Kashmir have its own currency, Karra replied, "Self-rule will enable the State to have its own currency and reviving it will be road-map for coming generation and this will help Kashmir to have its own identity for which it has struggled hard over the last five hundred years." Karra sounded optimistic about the revival of Kashmiri currency and coins that were on display at the venue which the bank has planned to showcase in its calendar next year. He said that these coins which date back to the 14th century certify the fact that Kashmir used to have its own currency in the past. "These coins are somehow in correlation with the ideology of our party which is based on self-reliance and self rule. "The coins on one side depict that Kashmir in its earlier times had its own economy for which we are striving even today for many reasons and on the other these depict that Kashmir had a unique cultural identity which as a nation we have been fighting for ages now," said Karra. This year's J&K Bank's calendar has a theme of Kashmir everywhere - a break from the tradition as earlier its calenders would showcase pilgrimage destinations, landscapes and cultural diversity. While speaking about the calendar which was released today he said, "The calendar is altogether different from the earlier one`s which would depict tourist resorts, pilgrimage destinations and landscapes of the region but this effort of J&K bank is an endeavour to take us back to our roots and culture and history is witness to the fact that a nation which is not aware of its roots and culture struggles for its existence as we are struggling today." Karra further said that the schemes and policies launched by the bank have a grass root traction and promoting a particular art and handicraft is a service to the entrepreneurs and other craftsman of the nation. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/defanged-1 Size: 4067 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20080102/8b2c46f6/attachment-0001.bin From taraprakash at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 21:34:31 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:04:31 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: Your message to reader-list awaits moderatorapproval References: Message-ID: <00e801c84d59$25139e90$0302a8c0@taraprakash> Unfortunately that is the standard message you get when you start a new thread on this list. At least I do. ----- Original Message ----- From: Vedavati Jogi To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 10:25 AM Subject: [Reader-list] FW: Your message to reader-list awaits moderatorapproval see chanchal, my mails need moderator's approval but oshik, arnav's mails don't require this type of approval. great! isn't it. i think we now have to change the definition of 'vulgarity' also. > Subject: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval > From: reader-list-bounces at mail.sarai.net > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:47:53 +0530 > > Your mail to 'reader-list' with the subject > > RE: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. > > The reason it is being held: > > Post by non-member to a members-only list > > Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive > notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to cancel > this posting, please visit the following URL: > > http://mail.sarai.net/cgi-bin/mailman/confirm/reader-list/d25f5f515de09f04f676659df32b5b09b0a146cc > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. List archive: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20080102/f2663cae/attachment-0001.html From taraprakash at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 22:24:14 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:54:14 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Poem of the week] Ram Setu References: <47725535.1060409@sarai.net> Message-ID: <015601c84d60$10a11350$0302a8c0@taraprakash> Thanks Vivek. I too have a poem to share. In the light of the VHP procession concerning Ram Setu, last week, I was reminded of a poem by Hindi poet Ajneya, pen name for Sachchidananda Hirananda Vatsyayan which I think is *the Hindi poem of the modern age of Hindi poetry. The poem is about 40 years old, however, like a true classic it is relevant for all ages and places. But before transliterating the poem I would like to narrate what I heard from some of the VHP activists who had come to Delhi to participate in the protest. On being asked by a correspondent why the Setu should not be broken, one of them said, and I am translating here "It is very useful for the people of India. They walk on it to reach Sri Lanka." On being asked who is planning to break it another said, "America and specially NASA is after it." Who made it? one replied, "Sri Rama." Following is the poem: Jo pul banaaenge Vo piche rah jaaenge. Paar utaregi sena Vijayi honge Ram Mara jaaega Ravan Jo nirmata the Bandar kahlaange. (Let me dare translate the poem now.) Those who make the bridge, Will behind fall, The army will go across Ram will be victorious Ravan will fall. The constructors of the bridge Will, the world "monkeys" call. Regards Tara Prakash ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vivek Narayanan" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 8:20 AM Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: [Poem of the week] BELIEFS] > Well... In spite of all the darkness now, and the darkness to come-- > happy new year, happy festive season. > > Vivek > > BELIEFS > > > / after Kristin Dimitrova/ > > // > > Old people say that whenever > someone lights a cigarette from a candle > a sailor dies. > > Among sailors, I suppose, > there is a belief that when they shave > in a odd direction, an academic dies. > > So they try not to shave. > The point is that we think > About each other. > > > © 2005, Gregory O'Donoghue > > > Poem of the Week: > http://ireland.poetryinternationalweb.org/piw_cms/cms/cms_module/index.php?obj_id=10613 > Gregory O'Donoghue page: > http://ireland.poetryinternationalweb.org/piw_cms/cms/cms_module/index.php?obj_id=10611 > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > List archive: From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 00:45:19 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 19:15:19 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval Message-ID: <038501c84d73$c1057fc0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> Now this is the message which some list members have expressed their doubt about. I fail to understand why all my messages are said to have "suspicious header"? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 11:04 AM Subject: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval > Your mail to 'reader-list' with the subject > > Re: [Reader-list] FW: Your message to reader-list awaits > moderatorapproval > > Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. > > The reason it is being held: > > Message has a suspicious header > > Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive > notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to cancel > this posting, please visit the following URL: > > > http://mail.sarai.net/cgi-bin/mailman/confirm/reader-list/85818dbebd58b35d6ec772aeefed308d6f2aea0e > > From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 01:13:35 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 19:43:35 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Detention of a blogger of social issues: NY Times Message-ID: <03d301c84d77$b5efd5a0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> Saudis Confirm Detention Of Blogger of Social Issues. By KATHERINE ZOEPF. RIYADH, Saudi Arabia. An outspoken Saudi blogger is being held for 'purposes of interrogation,' the Saudi Interior Ministry confirmed Tuesday. Gen. Mansour al-Turki, an Interior Ministry spokesman reached by telephone, said the blogger, Fouah al-Farhan, was 'being questioned about specific violations of nonsecurity laws. Mr. Farhan's blog, which discusses social issues, had become one of the most widely read in Saudi Arabia. Mr. Farhan, 32, of Jidda, was arrested Dec. 10 at his office, local news sources reported. Two weeks before his arrest, he wrote a letter to friends warning them that it was imminent. I was told that there is an official order from a high-ranking official in the Ministry of the Interior to investigate me,' read the letter, which is now posted in English and Arabic on Mr. Farhan's blog. Since his arrest, friends have continued to post entries on his Web log (www.alfarhan.org) on his behalf under a banner that reads 'Free Fouad' and features his picture. The issue that caused all of this is because I wrote about the political prisoners here in Saudi Arabia, and they think I'm running an online campaign promoting their issue,' the letter continued, saying that Mr. Farhan had been asked to sign a statement of apology. I'm not sure if I'm ready to do that,' he wrote. An apology for what? Apologizing because I said the government is a liar when they accused those guys to be supporting terrorism? Ahmad al-Omran, a blogger and a friend of Mr. Farhan, said that Mr. Farhan had been the first Saudi blogger to be detained by state security. The arrest created widespread anxiety among other Saudi bloggers and advocates, he said. An incident like this has its effect,' Mr. Omran said by telephone. It's intimidating to think you might be arrested for something on your blog. On the other hand, this means that these voices on the blogosphere are being heard. But it's really sad that a blogger who is writing about important issues out in the open would get arrested, while there are extremists who call for violence and hate, and the government is not doing much. Mr. Omran said Mr. Farhan was one of the first Saudi bloggers to post items in Arabic and to use his real name. At the top of Mr. Farhan's blog is a call in Arabic for 'freedom, dignity, justice, equality, public participation and the other lost Islamic values. The Interior Ministry would not say specifically why Mr. Farhan had been arrested. The violation is not a security matter,' General Turki said. He is not being jailed. He is being questioned, and I don't believe he will remain in detention long. They will get the information that they need from him and then they will let him go. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20080102/916e3eff/attachment-0001.html From yasir.media at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 01:54:57 2008 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?WINDOWS-1256?Q?=ED=C7_=D3=D1_~_yasir_?=) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 20:24:57 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval In-Reply-To: <038501c84d73$c1057fc0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> References: <038501c84d73$c1057fc0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: <5af37bb0801021224v76a69268gbc469128e9045868@mail.gmail.com> I was also unsubscribed. there is a problem with the software,ive been told, but in my previous posts i have received this when: - message was in html, not 'plain text', or - bcc fields were used in the header ie 'suspicious header' (not sure why this is) or - there were a few too many (?) links in the text... - i have no idea, its a mystery to all of us - like so many other of life's mysteries, big and small. hope this helps. wishing everyone the best for the new year y On Jan 2, 2008 11:14 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > Now this is the message which some list members have expressed their doubt > about. > I fail to understand why all my messages are said to have "suspicious > header"? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 11:04 AM > Subject: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval > > > > Your mail to 'reader-list' with the subject > > > > Re: [Reader-list] FW: Your message to reader-list awaits > > moderatorapproval > > > > Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. > > > > The reason it is being held: > > > > Message has a suspicious header > > > > Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive > > notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to cancel > > this posting, please visit the following URL: > > > > > > http://mail.sarai.net/cgi-bin/mailman/confirm/reader-list/85818dbebd58b35d6ec772aeefed308d6f2aea0e > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > List archive: From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 02:19:12 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 20:49:12 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] India pressures Myanmar Message-ID: <044301c84d7b$62c4a5f0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> India pressures Myanmar. Halt in arms sales loosens military ties;options for Beijing. By Glenn Kessler The Washington Post . INDIA HAS HALTED all arms sales and transfers to Myanmar, a development that could increase international pressure on the military junta that in September brutally crushed the pro-democracy "Saffron Revolution" led by monks. The Indian government's decision hasn't been officially announced, but diplomatic sources said it has been privately confirmed by New Delhi to top U.S. officials in recent weeks. In a little-noticed statement, Laura Bush, the U.S. first lady, noted the decision in a video teleconference she held on Dec. 10 in recognition of International Human Rights Day. Ticking off actions taken by countries around the world in response to the crackdown, Mrs. Bush said, "India, one of Burma's closest trading partners, has stopped selling arms to the junta. A spokesman for the Indian Embassy in Washington declined to comment. Myanmar, also known as Burma, is regarded as one of the world's most repressive nations. The National League for Democracy, the party of Nobel Peace Prize laureate Aung San Suu Kyi, won a landslide victory in the country's last elections, in 1990, but the military leadership refused to recognize the outcome. Ms. Suu Kyi has been under house arrest or in prison on and off since then. But in September, massive demonstrations led by Buddhist monks threatened the junta's rule, until the army arrested thousands of monks and democracy activists. Of the thousands arrested, 700 remain behind bars along with 1,150 political prisoners already in detention, according to Amnesty International. At least six members of the 88 Generation Students, a leading pro-democracy group, were arrested in late December, the U.S. State Department said. Before the protests, military ties between India and Myanmar had appeared to be on a fast track. Military contacts had increased in early 2007, with New Delhi seeking help battling Myanmar-based insurgent groups operating on its northeastern border and also attempting to counteract China's growing influence in the Burmese economy. Military forces of India and Myanmar began conducting joint operations, and Indian officials indicated they would grant Yangon's request for military equipment. In one sign of cooperation, India began discussing the transfer of military helicopters that Amnesty International, in a July report, said are "highly likely to contain components, technology and munitions" originating from European Union nations and the U.S., undermining embargoes by those countries. India's relationship with Burma has expanded pretty dramatically in the past few years," said Michael J. Green, a former top Asia adviser to U.S. President George W. Bush who is now at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington. He said that Southeast Asian neighbors of Myanmar had complained to Mr. Bush about India's deepening military ties with Yangon. They expect it of China, but India is a democracy," Mr. Green said. He said India's decision to end arms sales to Burma is "a big deal for U.S. -India relations. I think they are shifting. More broadly, India's move may put pressure on China, currently Myanmar's largest trading partner and arms supplier, experts said. In late December, a bipartisan group of 48 U.S. senators, led by Richard J. Durbin, a Democrat from Illinois, and John McCain, an Arizona Republican, signed a letter to Mr. Bush urging him to support an international arms embargo against Myanmar in the form of a U.N. Security Council resolution. No responsible nation should provide weapons to a regime as reprehensible as the one found in Burma," the letter said. Gordon Johndroe, a spokesman for the National Security Council, said, "We support an arms embargo against Burma and have been engaged in discussions with various countries on the matter. China is one of the nations holding veto power at the United Nations, and few expect it to support the arms embargo. But analysts said that India's decision could force China to think of options short of an arms embargo to pressure Myanmar's junta. In the 1990s, China became Myanmar's most important trading partner, according to Amnesty International, providing more than $2 billion in weapons and military equipment, including tanks, armored personnel carriers and artillery pieces such as howitzers, antitank guns and antiaircraft guns, some sold at below-market prices. The Chinese clearly are sensitive to the emerging role they are playing," Mr. Durbin said in an interview. We have an obligation to continue to remind them we need their help in stopping some of the outrages in the world. A top European envoy on Dec. 20 also urged China to use its influence in Myanmar, specifically to end the house arrest of Ms. Suu Kyi. Any sign from the Burmese authorities to progress on this path will be welcome, and the Chinese intervention is fundamental," Piero Fassino told reporters at the end of a three-day trip to China. In her year-end news conference, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said that "when the monks were in the streets, that there was an energy in the international community to try to do something about it," but now that momentum has dissipated. It's our responsibility, along with others, to try to keep a focus on that effort," she said. . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20080102/0fb81341/attachment-0001.html From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 10:12:08 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 04:42:08 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <93D1A9BFB1D84ADA9FAA726576A5B773@vetrivel> References: <956691.95928.qm@web90412.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <93D1A9BFB1D84ADA9FAA726576A5B773@vetrivel> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70801022042r247233c8tc9f35f9f0c344eaa@mail.gmail.com> Hello Adhimoolan , I forgot that this Forum was supposed to be anti Hindu and there are many who have deviated. Please dont write anything pro hindu . It hurts God Bless.... Pawan On 12/26/07, Vetrivel Adhimoolam wrote: > > I realized the need for applying junk e-mail filter. It's amazing that a > forum like this gets easily highjacked by the Hindu fundamentalist forces. > The return of barbarism. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* chanchal malviya > > *To:* Vedavati Jogi ; reader-list at sarai.net > > *Cc:* sudhakar.koppu at gmail.com > > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:48 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > There are huge breaking force acting on our Nation > 1. With the influence of foreigh missionnaries and investors, Science is > taking tool to introduce concepts like Sex Education in Children - the > target is next generation should be destroyed. Current generation has > already met the target of not respecting the nation and running heedlessly > towards whatever they like. they cannot withstand pressure, nor are the > brave enough to take bold decisions. they want money and they want wine and > girls around in the name freedom. > > 2. Govt. policies like Reservations are breaking the nation to pieces, > separating people from people. > 3. Chrisitian missionnaries are converting the Hindus to Christians at a > ver fast pace > 4. Muslims are being intruded (from Bangladesh in particular) in all > parts, increasing their population so as to become the majority and declare > the nation as Islamic state > 5. Foreign investments from Islamic state are continuously buying lands > through local Muslims > 6. Charas, Ganja, Afeem, other drugs along with Arms and Ammunitions are > being continuously coming across Pakistan and Bangladesh borders. Arms are > provided to Islamic groups and Naxals. Drugs are provided to sex educated > children of careless parents. > 7. Muslims are in target of Islamic conversions, continuously marrying > Hindus girls - Hindus girls are not able to understand that it is they who > are converted to Islam and the boy is never accepting Hinduism - Why? If it > was love, we would have found conversions in this field happening in both > area. > 8. Indian intellectuals are continuously exported to Foreign countries > (IIT, IIM, and all good institute students), ensuring that they do not work > for India > 9. Export of our Food Items is increasing when prices are hiking in our > own country. > 10. Poverty now seem to be the property of minority alone - when actually, > no minority is under poverty - most of them are on target to achieve this > nation as a group. > > There are so many things happening in this nation from years. And now > there is only one agenda - kill Hinduism, ask the Youth to be secular and > attack Hinduism - because Hindus destroyed is India taken over. > > Open your eyes, O Hindus - this is not a religion when you talk Hinduism. > It is the only philosophy that is humanity. What you see as differences are > actually political move to break the nation apart. Do not get moved by such > irrationality. have the gut to see beyond the screen, have the intelligence > to understand beyond what is highlighted in news. > > Jai Hind, > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Vedavati Jogi > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:19:31 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > what is meant by 'your beloved' country? > don't you stay in this country? > is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? > are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com> To: > vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; > reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> Date: > Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why Pakistan? People have migrated to > African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American > countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and corners > of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all Muslims? If > you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a second > thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority of > those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the > other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were > > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che> > Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and > > Muslims had > no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena for > their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > sentiments. How > do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai? Do > they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? Those who you > think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood just > for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I > support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard core > hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath yatra > and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should be > the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to power? > Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership of > which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya > Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > > To: ; < > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>; > > Sent: Tuesday, > December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find > india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan.> >> > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt > karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning this country on > religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal > rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram > temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if you too > are the sons of this soil, > why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor? > babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this earth has > ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it very well that > madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are > trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from > sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your chidren > to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere because > they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for > reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then > that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform > civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields > in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never > faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this > 'false > > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been > taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am > sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take > action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to > garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims > but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat > so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is > politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & > seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if > not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation > building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try > to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > Date: > Tue, 25 Dec > 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati,> > When > you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore > gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin > & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action > against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments > anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after > > brutal rape, > violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you > > have to live > in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that > you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary identity > or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left? What do you > have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > participated in the > 1992-93 riots in > Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken against > the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra government > under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in mass violence? I > am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to be in,one where > even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed to be aligned.> > In > peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi < > vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab, 'india is a secular country > and will remain a secular country > > only because of majority community > (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who had voted for pakistan in > 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india after partition. they chose > to stay back because their daily > > bread & butter was here not because > they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too followed british policy > of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave reservations to bc, obcs, by > reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs & obcs and > divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities from muslim > community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir hussain, > shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... all of > them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular among > hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > descrimination, > indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed carrot of > 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they can't > hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. modi does not > 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including > bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, > hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former > because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. this > secularism practised by > congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists > are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is talking about > 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like soharabuddin is > killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what about > 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter hindus cannot > be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! vedavati> >> >> > > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC: > > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a > simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > > problem of communalism on > their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And > when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is > already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who > have won.. > in other words, > > it is humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims has yet > to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass when > there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single > movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > Whenever > Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > but not > Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > the > world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you > think > that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > > Hindus... > can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > becoming > another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no > strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > > > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same > God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the > nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what > they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day > Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would > start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would > join the festivals > > of their brothers... the secularism would meet > its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not > have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims > have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > > from > their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra > Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > ----- Original Message > ----From: Zainab Bawa To: > > > TaraPrakash Cc : > reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: > Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am still a > bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as for > formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the > country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus are not > Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for > my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that Modi's > victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > thatModi's victory > is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for > nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 > AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > > Isn't it rather a > defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS members > discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > > shaap" for > getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> > > be> happy > with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > communal > > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat > > was a > fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> > > lost > too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May > > be > you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > > next > time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > > vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: ; > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> > > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the > > > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & > > > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header.Tounsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > Never miss a > thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.> >> >> > Live the life in style with MSN > Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!> > > _________________________________________________________________> > Post > free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in> > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > List archive: > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20080103/07b126a3/attachment-0001.html From uddipana at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 11:59:10 2008 From: uddipana at gmail.com (Uddipana Goswami) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 06:29:10 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] literatures of assam - 'muse india' issue Message-ID: requesting feedback on the assamese literature section in this issue of 'muse india' that i edited: http://www.museindia.com/index.asp -- Uddipana Goswami www.jajabori-mon.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20080103/11f0cd1e/attachment-0001.html From monica at sarai.net Thu Jan 3 13:02:45 2008 From: monica at sarai.net (Monica Narula) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 07:32:45 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval In-Reply-To: <038501c84d73$c1057fc0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> References: <038501c84d73$c1057fc0$0302a8c0@taraprakash> Message-ID: You're right in pointing this out. For some odd reason, it comes as the default message on the software (mailman) that we use to run the lists. We have changed it in the past, but each time we face a tech crisis/overhaul (which as you all know has been happening far too often these days), the message gets reset to this default mode. We will change it again! thank you all for your patience. best M Monica Narula Raqs Sarai-CSDS 29 Rajpur Road Delhi 110 054 www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net On 03-Jan-08, at 12:44 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > Now this is the message which some list members have expressed > their doubt > about. > I fail to understand why all my messages are said to have "suspicious > header"? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 11:04 AM > Subject: Your message to reader-list awaits moderator approval > > >> Your mail to 'reader-list' with the subject >> >> Re: [Reader-list] FW: Your message to reader-list awaits >> moderatorapproval >> >> Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. >> >> The reason it is being held: >> >> Message has a suspicious header >> >> Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive >> notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to >> cancel >> this posting, please visit the following URL: >> >> >> http://mail.sarai.net/cgi-bin/mailman/confirm/reader-list/ >> 85818dbebd58b35d6ec772aeefed308d6f2aea0e >> >> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > List archive: From turbulence at turbulence.org Thu Jan 3 16:07:26 2008 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 10:37:26 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Networked_Music_Review Commission: "More of the Same" by LoVid Message-ID: <00b101c84d8f$018d7910$04a86b30$@org> January 2, 2008 Networked_Music_Review Commission: "More of the Same" by LoVid http://turbulence.org/works/moreofthesame/ "More of the Same" extends LoVid's investigation of electrical irregularities and human interactions. After it loads copies of a single sound sample, fissures in the digital veneer are explored as the spoken communication is played back repeatedly. Though each instantiation of the speech is identical, physical constraints affect the timing. This allows the nature of the medium to peek through the cracks in the voices. "More of the Same" is a 2007 commission of New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc. for Networked_Music_Review. It was made possible with funding from the New York State Music Fund, established by the New York State Attorney General at Rockefeller Philanthropy Advisors. BIOGRAPHY LoVid (Tali Hinkis and Kyle Lapidus) overwhelms the senses with new media in their performances, videos, objects, and installations. LoVid has toured the US and Europe extensively performing, exhibiting, and lecturing at PS1, The Neuberger Museum, The Butler Institute of American Art , The Center for Contemporary Art Tel Aviv, Exit Art, Evolution Festival (UK), The Kitchen, RISD, Massachusetts College of Art, FACT, Kansas City Art Institute, Chicago Art Institute, University of Wisconsin, Futuresonic Festival (UK), The New Museum of Contemporary Art, Ocularis, and Institute of Contemporary Art London, among many others. LoVid has been artist in residence at Eyebeam, Harvestworks, iEAR, Alfred University, and Stevens Institute of Technology; and has received grants and awards from Turbulence.org, Experimental TV Center, NYSCA, Foundation for Contemporary Arts, and The Greenwall Foundation. LoVid is also a free103Point9 transmission artist. For more Networked_Music_Review Commissions please visit http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review/tags/nmr_commission Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From sadan at sarai.net Thu Jan 3 17:57:09 2008 From: sadan at sarai.net (sadan at sarai.net) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 12:27:09 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Foucault as a genealogist : The case for (non) archives In-Reply-To: <364403.23960.qm@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <364403.23960.qm@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1884c028ab5bfca71b20395c03fb1798@sarai.net> Dear Arnab, thanks for suggestion to reread Foucault on archives. Agamben may be another person to consider in this excercise. Tow quick respond, we also need to read Foucault's geneology, Nietzsche... as a point in between his earlier 'Archeology' and his lecutures... and then his power/knowledge. The point i was trying to raise in my article though is not whether we need archives or not but how archives can be profitably seen from vantage points of different sets of people. thanks. sadan. On 4:53 pm 01/03/08 ARNAB CHATTERJEE wrote: > Dear friends, > Now atlast I'm geared up to rise and make > reviews of sentences we talked and questions we > answered or left them out at our last meeting in > Delhi. > First my conversation with mahmood farooqui and this > is simultaneously for Sadan Jha and Ritwik > Bhattacharya ( our own Kolkata archive theorist) as > well ( having read sadan's stuff on archive in > CENSOR..book etc. and Ritwik's research on the archive > and our own debate ehether pornography could have an > archival living or not). Does philosophical history > need archival materials? Does genealogy need archives? > My answer is unequivocal "No". I'll go into the > speculated details in my next post-- a bit of detail, > that is. But I'll first submit to mahmood farooqui and > my friends to reread Foucault's 'Nietzsche, genealogy > and History' because there is stuff for both sides and > I think Foucault simply puts his own oeuvre down by > claiming a case for vast source materials once and > then declaiming by saying archival materials have > their origin in a sort of non archival trace. I'll > argue, we could start by asking again , whether the > necessity of archives arises from within the archives. > If not, what are the consequences? > And another hint,Foucault is helped by Nietzsche here, > but consider Nietzsche's career as a genealogist( e.g > of values): how much of a source materialist he was, > how deep referential? > > Lets get onto the game, the outwork once more. > Un happy new year to all > arnab > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a > click away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 09:48:34 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 04:18:34 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: [invites] Petition to protest against the continued detention of Dr. Binayak Sen Message-ID: <03a201c84e88$d1c6e1d0$6400a8c0@taraprakash> FW: [invites] Petition to protest against the continued detention of Dr. Binayak Sen ----- Original Message ----- From: Victor John Cordeiro To: aadi jagruti ; AADI School ; AAINA ; Action For Autism ; add delhi ; ADD India ; ADD India Trichy ; Alexander SERVH ; AmarjotiCharitable Trust ; Amithab Mehrotra SPARC ; APD Bangalore ; APD Bangalore ; Arushi Bhopal ; Ashagram Trust ; ASRA ; ASTHA India ; Banyan Chennai ; Bapu trust ; Bethany Shilong ; Bethany Society Shilong ; BPA Bhusan Punani ; cadabams at bgl.vsnl.net.in ; CAN Delhi ; CDC India ; Center For Differently Abled ; Cheshire Home Jamshedpur ; DA Training programmes ; Deepshikha Ranchi ; deshabandhu club ; disability rights initiative HRLN ; Employment For Disabled youth ; HANDICAPPED FOUNDATION ; ISH Bangalore ; JM Institute of S&H ; KAPD Bangalore ; Karishma Enterprises ; KPAMRC Bangalore ; Madhumita Puri Disability India ; Mahanthesh Samarthanam ; Mitra Jyothi ; Mobility India ; Mobility India CBR ; MORE Madhanapalli ; NAB Delhi ; Nab Helpline ; NAB India ; NAB Karnataka ; NAB Mumbai ; NABCBW Delhi ; narendra Foundation ; NASEOH Mumbai ; National Trust ; navchetan blinds ; Navprerna ; NBJK ; NCPEDP Legislation ; NCPEDP NDN ; NCPEDP Secretariate ; PLR Society ; PNR Society ; PNRS ; Pratibandhi punarvas Samiti ; Prayas ; RFS National Board ; SAKSHAM Delhi ; Samarthanam Trust ; Samarthya India Delhi ; Sanjivini Society ; Sankalp ; Shishu Sarothi ; Shubham ; SPARC India ; Srinivasulu Pragati Charitables ; SRMAB ; SRMAB Bangalore ; SSNI AADI Delhi ; SST Chennai ; Umesh Purohit YSC ; Vanita Sparsh Products ; Venu Eye Institute ; Viklang Kendra ; viklang sangh ; Vimal J Thakur ; Vinamra Agarwal ; Vinod Sena ; Vishwa Shanthi Vikas Samithi ; Volunteers for the Blind ; Welfare Society for the Blind ; Aadhar Pune ; Amhi Amchya Arogyasathi ; Ankur Delhi ; Arvind K. 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Kindly respond. Regards Victor. -----Original Message----- From: invites at yahoogroups.com [mailto:invites at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Edwin Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 8:34 PM To: invites Subject: [invites] Petition to <> protest against the continued detention of Dr. Binayak Sen Please circulate widely! Show your solidarity to great social activist & doctor, with 25 years of social service! AID logo Subject:Petition to protest against the continued detention of Dr. Binayak Sen (December 2007) 53 people have signed this petition so far. Subject:Petition to protest against the continued detention of Dr. Binayak Sen (December 2007) 53 people have signed this petition so far. To, Dr. Raman Singh The Hon'ble Chief Minister of Chhattishgarh CC: 1) Dr. Manmohan Singh, Hon'ble Prime Minister of India (Fax: 011-23016857) 2)ESL Narsimhan Hon'ble Governor of Chhattishgarh 3)Ram Vichar Netam Hon'ble Home Minister of Chhattishgarh Dear Chief Minister, We, the undersigned, are dismayed and deeply disappointed at the rejection of bail for Dr. Binayak Sen, by the Supreme Court of India.More than 7 months since his arrest on vague and unsubstantiated charges under a draconian law, the State of Chhattisgarh is yet to produce any semblance of evidence against Dr. Sen and continues to drag its feet at every opportunity. This was evident several times during the last 7 months, most notably when the government only brought charges, which at best can be described as baseless, on the 89 th day of his arrest, barely meeting the 90 day limit. Even as the State holds Dr. Sen with no credible case or evidence against him, the actual naxalite problem has only worsened in recent weeks and months. The recent escalation of violence and rise in death toll as well as the security breach in Dantewada prison, being the latest events in an increasingly violent state. Innocent people of Chhattisgarh continue to suffer even as the situation worsens. Dr. Binayak Sen, besides doing stellar work in the fields of public health, is a strong proponent of peace and has repeatedly condemned naxalism as he did violence of any type. We demand the following 1) That Dr. Sen be immediately released and all cases against him be dropped. 2) That the Chhattisgarh Government take immediate steps to restore peace and end the violence by the naxalites as well as the Salwa Judum. 3) That the Government end its support of the Salwa Judum immediately. 4) That the Government looks after the interests of all citizens of Chhattisgarh including understanding the underlying reasons why the naxalite movement is gaining strength in regions of the state. Background: Dr. Binayak Sen, a graduate of CMC Vellore is the General Secretary of the Chhattisgarh People's Union for Civil Liberties (PUCL) and a pediatrician and public health/social activist of repute. He has been working in Chhattisgarh on health, social and human rights issues for over 25 years. He is responsible for stellar contributions to the cause of healthcare for all in Chhattisgarh including setting up the Shaheed Hospital for Mine Workers in Dalli Rajahara and the establishment of the Mitaneen program, a pioneering model putting the Village Health Worker at the forefront of rural healthcare. Dr. Sen during his PUCL work brought to light the human rights situation in Bastar and Dantewada districts of the state, where a civil war like situation has been prevailing, even as the state propped up by providing money and arms, an organization called the Salwa Judum to supposedly counter the attendant naxalism. Dr. Sen was arrested on May 14, 2007 under the Chhattisgarh Special Public Security Act, 2006 (CSPSA which gives the state sweeping powers, for allegedly being in contact with a naxalite leader who is in jail. Dr. Sen maintains that these meetings occured with the express written permission of the state. The State is yet to provide a single credible piece of evidence or a specific charge. AID Previous petition on same issue In Solidarity _______________________________________________ __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages Please ensure that this information is used. Share it widely... and ALWAYS check before you go. 'Reply' goes to the person who posted only. So please check ID before sending (especially for forwarded messages)! Ask others to join by sending a mail to invites-subscribe at yahoogroups.com Post directly to invites at yahoogroups.com (attachments are automatically removed by yahoogroup setting) Status:: 1 January 2008:: 2570 subscribers, 124 bouncing The earth is not under threat due to global warming. We are. And the folks at yahoo gently let us know that: MARKETPLACE ________________________________ Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net. Yahoo! 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For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 09:50:40 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 04:20:40 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70801022042r247233c8tc9f35f9f0c344eaa@mail.gmail.com> References: <956691.95928.qm@web90412.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <93D1A9BFB1D84ADA9FAA726576A5B773@vetrivel> <6b79f1a70801022042r247233c8tc9f35f9f0c344eaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990801032020r70c88078r8891b9e6aacb8628@mail.gmail.com> Hi Pawan, Like many others, had got unsubscribed from Sarai, so just went ahead and re-subscribed, and got tons of mail a few days late - which was quite interesting as I got to see viewpoints and counterpoints without reacting. Anyhow, to get to the point I was going to make - I'm sure you'll agree with me that Chanchal's argument was extremely unfounded in fact based on some dreamlike vision she has of 'Hinduism'. 1. Sex education It is a well known fact that prudism in the form of the insistence of blouses (which were unknown in rural Bengal from my childhood) or pants instead of lungi's and dhoti's were a direct influence of the British hangover for what they considered 'proper'. Go through ancient Indian art, and there are countless instances that will prove this to you. 2. Reservations Per se, for India as to move forward - it has to move forward as a whole from the villages to the towns to the cities. Also, it is a known fact that 'lower castes' are still dominated in areas and that is accepted. Hindu as I may be from birth, I refuse to agree with anyone who may claim that s/he is higher (or lower) than me because of their ancestral name. I'm sure you'll agree that just because some one is born a Brahmin does not denote that they are automatically superhumans endowed with special powers. Similarly, just because someone is a Dalit does not mean that they are mentally or physically incapable. And I have personally met people at all levels who are capable (and incapable) irrespective of caste. The ex-King of Nepal is a prime example of a bad high caste ruler. Then if capable 'Lower Castes' have been kept down, doesn't the Indian Nation need them to be empowered so that India can achieve it's greatness? 3. Foreign Investments The investments may be from 'Islamic States' or Indian Muslims. The bigger evil (though this is a personal opinion) is the people in India who cheat the state and the law of this land and misuse public money / property - from Nandigram to the Registrar of Societies in Delhi who fleeced the nation. Foreign money is subject to many regulations and checks - and if there is a misuse, we should look at catching the people who are supposed to administrate it for public good. 4. Charas, Ganja & Afeem were known as 'Nawabi Showk' well before the British came into India. Charas and Ganja especially are copiously consumed on Shiv Ratri in India. Weakness or addiction has nothing to do with religion, caste or gender - it is purely a personal problem that can afflict anyone. I could go on and on about the misinformed statements of Chanchal, which I'm sure you would also agree are completely skewed. However, as a Hindu (atleast notionally - since I do not believe that any Brahmin has the right to stand between God and me) I do have a problem with someone telling me what I should believe about how a Hindu should believe / behave / think. As a thinking individual and an adult, it is my right to follow my personal belief - all the more so when faced with an incoherent, immature and totally unfounded argument that you seem to agree with (and I say 'seem to agree with' since you answer Ahimoolam's irritation with bland statements that signify unless we subscribe to Chanchal's rant we are 'anti Hindu') Rgds, Partha .......................... On Jan 3, 2008 10:12 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Hello Adhimoolan , > > > > I forgot that this Forum was supposed to be anti Hindu and there are many > who have deviated. Please dont write anything pro hindu . > > > > It hurts > > > > God Bless.... > > > > Pawan > > > > On 12/26/07, Vetrivel Adhimoolam wrote: > > > I realized the need for applying junk e-mail filter. It's amazing that > > a forum like this gets easily highjacked by the Hindu fundamentalist forces. > > The return of barbarism. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > *From:* chanchal malviya > > > > *To:* Vedavati Jogi ; reader-list at sarai.net > > > > *Cc:* sudhakar.koppu at gmail.com > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:48 AM > > > > *Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > There are huge breaking force acting on our Nation > > 1. With the influence of foreigh missionnaries and investors, Science is > > taking tool to introduce concepts like Sex Education in Children - the > > target is next generation should be destroyed. Current generation has > > already met the target of not respecting the nation and running heedlessly > > towards whatever they like. they cannot withstand pressure, nor are the > > brave enough to take bold decisions. they want money and they want wine and > > girls around in the name freedom. > > > > 2. Govt. policies like Reservations are breaking the nation to pieces, > > separating people from people. > > 3. Chrisitian missionnaries are converting the Hindus to Christians at a > > ver fast pace > > 4. Muslims are being intruded (from Bangladesh in particular) in all > > parts, increasing their population so as to become the majority and declare > > the nation as Islamic state > > 5. Foreign investments from Islamic state are continuously buying lands > > through local Muslims > > 6. Charas, Ganja, Afeem, other drugs along with Arms and Ammunitions are > > being continuously coming across Pakistan and Bangladesh borders. Arms are > > provided to Islamic groups and Naxals. Drugs are provided to sex educated > > children of careless parents. > > 7. Muslims are in target of Islamic conversions, continuously marrying > > Hindus girls - Hindus girls are not able to understand that it is they who > > are converted to Islam and the boy is never accepting Hinduism - Why? If it > > was love, we would have found conversions in this field happening in both > > area. > > 8. Indian intellectuals are continuously exported to Foreign countries > > (IIT, IIM, and all good institute students), ensuring that they do not work > > for India > > 9. Export of our Food Items is increasing when prices are hiking in our > > own country. > > 10. Poverty now seem to be the property of minority alone - when > > actually, no minority is under poverty - most of them are on target to > > achieve this nation as a group. > > > > There are so many things happening in this nation from years. And now > > there is only one agenda - kill Hinduism, ask the Youth to be secular and > > attack Hinduism - because Hindus destroyed is India taken over. > > > > Open your eyes, O Hindus - this is not a religion when you talk > > Hinduism. It is the only philosophy that is humanity. What you see as > > differences are actually political move to break the nation apart. Do not > > get moved by such irrationality. have the gut to see beyond the screen, have > > the intelligence to understand beyond what is highlighted in news. > > > > Jai Hind, > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:19:31 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > what is meant by 'your beloved' country? > > don't you stay in this country? > > is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? > > are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com> To: > > vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; > > reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> Date: > > Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why Pakistan? People have migrated to > > African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American > > countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and corners > > of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all Muslims? If > > you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a second > > thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority of > > those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the > > other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were > > > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che> > > Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and > > > Muslims had > > no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena for > > their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > sentiments. How > > do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai? Do > > they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? Those who you > > think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood just > > for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I > > support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard core > > hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath yatra > > and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should be > > the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to power? > > Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership of > > which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya > > Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > > > To: < bawazainab79 at gmail.com>; < > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>; > < reader-list at sarai.net>> Sent: Tuesday, > > December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > > > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find > > india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan.> >> > > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > > > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt > > karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning this country on > > religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal > > rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > > > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram > > temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if you too > > are the sons of this soil, > > why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor? > > babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this earth has > > ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it very well that > > madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are > > trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from > > sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your chidren > > to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere because > > they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for > > reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then > > that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform > > civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields > > in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never > > faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this > > 'false > > > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > > > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been > > taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am > > sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take > > action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to > > garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims > > but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat > > so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is > > politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & > > seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if > > not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation > > building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try > > to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > Date: > > Tue, 25 Dec > > 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > > > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > ; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati,> > When you say "modi does not > > 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including > > bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, > > hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former > > because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway." I don't > > think there are any sentiments left after > > brutal rape, violence and > > torture. When the soul is killed and when you > > have to live in duress > > under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that you 'are > > Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary identity or not), > > you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left? What do you have to > > say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > participated in the 1992-93 riots > > in > > Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken > > against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra > > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in mass > > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to be > > in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed to be > > aligned.> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, > > Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab, 'india is > > a secular country and will remain a secular country > > only because of > > majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who had > > voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india after > > partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread & butter > > was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too > > followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave > > reservations to bc, obcs, by > > reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs & obcs > > and divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities from muslim > > community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir hussain, > > shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... all of > > them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular among > > hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > descrimination, > > indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed carrot of > > 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they can't > > hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. modi does not > > 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including > > bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, > > hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former > > because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. this > > secularism practised by > > congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus. > > terrorists are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is talking > > about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like soharabuddin > > is killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what about > > 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter hindus cannot > > be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! vedavati> >> > > >> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > > electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC : > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> >> > > >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are > > facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra > > Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be > > understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when > > Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. > > in other words, > > it is humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims has yet > > to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass when > > there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single > > movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > > > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > Whenever > > Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > but not > > Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > the > > world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that > > all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever > > Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not > > religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > > > Don't you think > > that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > > Hindus... > > can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > becoming > > another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no > > strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > > > > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same > > God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > > > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the > > nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what > > they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day > > Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would > > start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would > > join the festivals > > of their brothers... the secularism would meet > > its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not > > have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims > > have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > > from > > their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra > > Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > ----- Original Message > > ----From: Zainab Bawa < bawazainab79 at gmail.com>To: > > > > TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com>Cc : > > reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: > > Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > > electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am still a > > bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as for > > formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the > > country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus are not > > Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for > > my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that > > Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > thatModi's > > victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again, > > apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On Dec > > 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > > Isn't > > it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS > > members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > > > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> > > > > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > > > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat > > > > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> > > > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May > > > > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > > > > next > > time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > vrjogi at hotmail.com > > >> To: ; < tapasrayx at gmail.com>> > > Sent: > > Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > > > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > > > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > > > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > > > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> > > > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an > > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: > > < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > > > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > > > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in the > > > > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques& > > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: < > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > Never miss a > > thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.> >> >> > Live the life in style with MSN > > Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!> > > > _________________________________________________________________> > Post > > free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in> > > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219> > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > List archive: > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From parthaekka at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 10:38:59 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 05:08:59 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70801032105tbf678ftd55b2f8ed45468dd@mail.gmail.com> References: <956691.95928.qm@web90412.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <93D1A9BFB1D84ADA9FAA726576A5B773@vetrivel> <6b79f1a70801022042r247233c8tc9f35f9f0c344eaa@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990801032020r70c88078r8891b9e6aacb8628@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70801032105tbf678ftd55b2f8ed45468dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990801032108j139b5142yde9ffca0a25046ed@mail.gmail.com> Hi, That's great. However, it leaves an even bigger confusion as to which part of Ahimoolam's response you found 'anti Hindu'. Rgds, Partha ................ On Jan 4, 2008 10:35 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Partha , > > If some people have an interpretation of society , it may be termed as a > personal view. I believe a Dalit is as much a Hindu as a Brahmin or a > Kshytra is.And I believe that all those who lure poor with money to > convert should be stopped as well. > > And me , though being a Brahmin by birth , never believed that I stood > between a human and God. Neither were we taught so by our parents. > > Pawan > > On 1/4/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > Hi Pawan, > > > > Like many others, had got unsubscribed from Sarai, so just went ahead > > and re-subscribed, and got tons of mail a few days late - which was quite > > interesting as I got to see viewpoints and counterpoints without reacting. > > > > Anyhow, to get to the point I was going to make - I'm sure you'll agree > > with me that Chanchal's argument was extremely unfounded in fact based on > > some dreamlike vision she has of 'Hinduism'. > > > > 1. Sex education > > It is a well known fact that prudism in the form of the insistence > > of blouses > > (which were unknown in rural Bengal from my childhood) or pants > > instead > > of lungi's and dhoti's were a direct influence of the British > > hangover for what > > they considered 'proper'. Go through ancient Indian art, and there > > are countless > > instances that will prove this to you. > > > > 2. Reservations > > Per se, for India as to move forward - it has to move forward as a > > whole from > > the villages to the towns to the cities. Also, it is a known fact > > that 'lower castes' > > are still dominated in areas and that is accepted. Hindu as I may > > be from birth, > > I refuse to agree with anyone who may claim that s/he is higher (or > > lower) than > > me because of their ancestral name. I'm sure you'll agree that just > > because > > some one is born a Brahmin does not denote that they are > > automatically > > superhumans endowed with special powers. Similarly, just because > > someone > > is a Dalit does not mean that they are mentally or physically > > incapable. > > And I have personally met people at all levels who are capable (and > > incapable) > > irrespective of caste. The ex-King of Nepal is a prime example of a > > bad high caste > > ruler. Then if capable 'Lower Castes' have been kept down, doesn't > > the Indian Nation > > need them to be empowered so that India can achieve it's greatness? > > > > 3. Foreign Investments > > The investments may be from 'Islamic States' or Indian Muslims. The > > bigger evil > > (though this is a personal opinion) is the people in India who > > cheat the state and the > > law of this land and misuse public money / property - from > > Nandigram to the Registrar > > of Societies in Delhi who fleeced the nation. Foreign money is > > subject to many > > regulations and checks - and if there is a misuse, we should look > > at catching the > > people who are supposed to administrate it for public good. > > > > > > 4. Charas, Ganja & Afeem were known as 'Nawabi Showk' well before the > > British came > > into India. Charas and Ganja especially are copiously consumed on > > Shiv Ratri in India. > > Weakness or addiction has nothing to do with religion, caste or > > gender - it is purely > > a personal problem that can afflict anyone. > > > > I could go on and on about the misinformed statements of Chanchal, which > > I'm sure you would also agree are completely skewed. However, as a Hindu > > (atleast notionally - since I do not believe that any Brahmin has the right > > to stand between God and me) I do have a problem with someone telling me > > what I should believe about how a Hindu should believe / behave / think. As > > a thinking individual and an adult, it is my right to follow my personal > > belief - all the more so when faced with an incoherent, immature and totally > > unfounded argument that you seem to agree with (and I say 'seem to agree > > with' since you answer Ahimoolam's irritation with bland statements that > > signify unless we subscribe to Chanchal's rant we are 'anti Hindu') > > > > Rgds, Partha > > .......................... > > > > On Jan 3, 2008 10:12 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > Hello Adhimoolan , > > > > > > > > > > > > I forgot that this Forum was supposed to be anti Hindu and there are > > > many who have deviated. Please dont write anything pro hindu . > > > > > > > > > > > > It hurts > > > > > > > > > > > > God Bless.... > > > > > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/26/07, Vetrivel Adhimoolam wrote: > > > > > > > I realized the need for applying junk e-mail filter. It's amazing > > > > that a forum like this gets easily highjacked by the Hindu fundamentalist > > > > forces. The return of barbarism. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > *From:* chanchal malviya > > > > > > > > *To:* Vedavati Jogi ; reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > > *Cc:* sudhakar.koppu at gmail.com > > > > > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:48 AM > > > > > > > > *Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > There are huge breaking force acting on our Nation > > > > 1. With the influence of foreigh missionnaries and investors, > > > > Science is taking tool to introduce concepts like Sex Education in Children > > > > - the target is next generation should be destroyed. Current generation has > > > > already met the target of not respecting the nation and running heedlessly > > > > towards whatever they like. they cannot withstand pressure, nor are the > > > > brave enough to take bold decisions. they want money and they want wine and > > > > girls around in the name freedom. > > > > > > > > 2. Govt. policies like Reservations are breaking the nation to > > > > pieces, separating people from people. > > > > 3. Chrisitian missionnaries are converting the Hindus to Christians > > > > at a ver fast pace > > > > 4. Muslims are being intruded (from Bangladesh in particular) in all > > > > parts, increasing their population so as to become the majority and declare > > > > the nation as Islamic state > > > > 5. Foreign investments from Islamic state are continuously buying > > > > lands through local Muslims > > > > 6. Charas, Ganja, Afeem, other drugs along with Arms and Ammunitions > > > > are being continuously coming across Pakistan and Bangladesh borders. Arms > > > > are provided to Islamic groups and Naxals. Drugs are provided to sex > > > > educated children of careless parents. > > > > 7. Muslims are in target of Islamic conversions, continuously > > > > marrying Hindus girls - Hindus girls are not able to understand that it is > > > > they who are converted to Islam and the boy is never accepting Hinduism - > > > > Why? If it was love, we would have found conversions in this field happening > > > > in both area. > > > > 8. Indian intellectuals are continuously exported to Foreign > > > > countries (IIT, IIM, and all good institute students), ensuring that they do > > > > not work for India > > > > 9. Export of our Food Items is increasing when prices are hiking in > > > > our own country. > > > > 10. Poverty now seem to be the property of minority alone - when > > > > actually, no minority is under poverty - most of them are on target to > > > > achieve this nation as a group. > > > > > > > > There are so many things happening in this nation from years. And > > > > now there is only one agenda - kill Hinduism, ask the Youth to be secular > > > > and attack Hinduism - because Hindus destroyed is India taken over. > > > > > > > > Open your eyes, O Hindus - this is not a religion when you talk > > > > Hinduism. It is the only philosophy that is humanity. What you see as > > > > differences are actually political move to break the nation apart. Do not > > > > get moved by such irrationality. have the gut to see beyond the screen, have > > > > the intelligence to understand beyond what is highlighted in news. > > > > > > > > Jai Hind, > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:19:31 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > > > > > > > > > > > what is meant by 'your beloved' country? > > > > don't you stay in this country? > > > > is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism? > > > > are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com> > > > > To: vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; > > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: > > > > [Reader-list] gujrat election> Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why > > > > Pakistan? People have migrated to African countries, West Indese, > European > > > > countries, North American countries, South East Asian countries and > so > > > > many other nooks and corners of the world to get rid of your beloved > > > > > country. Are they all Muslims? If you yourself are not already abroad at the > > > > > moment, will not waste a second thought as soon as the opportunity comes > > > > > your way. So the majority of those who migrate, which religion they are? > > > > > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the other hand just consider the loving Hindus of > > > > Gujarat when they were > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and > > > > slogan "Su che saru che> Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was > > > > the order of the day and > Muslims had > > > > no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena > > > > for their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > sentiments. > > > > How do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai? > > > > Do they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? Those who you > > > > think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood just > > > > for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I > > > > support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard core > > > > hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath yatra > > > > and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should be > > > > the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to power? > > > > Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership of > > > > which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya > > > > Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > > > > > To: < bawazainab79 at gmail.com>; < > > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>; > < reader-list at sarai.net>> Sent: > > > > Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > > > > election> > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if > > > > you don't find india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to > > > > pakistan.> >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well > > > > but they > > never understand their responsibilities.they never > > > > understand their own > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? > > > > who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning > > > > this country on religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, > > > > given equal rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by > > > > hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to > > > > build ram temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if > > > > you too are the sons of this soil, > > > > why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your > > > > ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this > > > > earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it very well > > > > that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are > > > > trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from > > > > sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your > > > > chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere > > > > because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for > > > > reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then > > > > that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform > > > > civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields > > > > in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never > > > > faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this > > > > 'false > > > > > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > > > > > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been > > > > taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am > > > > sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take > > > > action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to > > > > garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims > > > > but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat > > > > so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is > > > > politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & > > > > seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if > > > > not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation > > > > building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try > > > > to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > Date: > > > > Tue, 25 Dec > > > > 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > > > > > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > > > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com ; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear > > > > Vedavati,> > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks > > > > about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > > > > equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take > > > > stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt > > > > muslim > > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left > > > > after > > brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and > > > > when you > > have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day > > > > you are > > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is > > > > your > > primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or > > > > voice > > left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > > > > > participated in the 1992-93 riots in > > > > Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken > > > > against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra > > > > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in mass > > > > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to be > > > > in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed to be > > > > aligned.> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, > > > > Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab, 'india > > > > is a secular country and will remain a secular country > > only because of > > > > majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who had > > > > voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india after > > > > partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread & butter > > > > was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too > > > > followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave > > > > reservations to bc, obcs, by > > > > reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs & > > > > obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities from > > > > muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir hussain, > > > > shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... all of > > > > them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular among > > > > hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > descrimination, > > > > indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed carrot of > > > > 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they can't > > > > hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. modi does not > > > > 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including > > > > bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, > > > > hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former > > > > because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. this > > > > secularism practised by > > > > congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus. > > > > terrorists are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is talking > > > > about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like soharabuddin > > > > is killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what about > > > > 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter hindus cannot > > > > be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! vedavati> > > > > >> >> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: > > > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > > > > electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC : > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >> > > > > >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who > > > > are facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > > > > > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > > > > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, > > > > when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. > > > > in other words, > > it is humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims has > > > > yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass when > > > > there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single > > > > movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > > > > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > > > > > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > Whenever > > > > Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > but not > > > > Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > the > > > > world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > > > > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.netthat all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. > > > > Whenever Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and > > > > not religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> > > > > >> > Don't you think > > > > that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > > > > > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > > > > > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if > > > > there is no strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and > > > > voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... > > > > Declaring Quran as > > words of God and then putting killing into action in > > > > the name of same God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is > > > > what is happening > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have > > > > intruded in the nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to > > > > indulge into what they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them > > > > brothers... The day Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the > > > > day Muslims would start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. > > > > the Muslim would join the festivals > > of their brothers... the secularism > > > > would meet > > > > its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would > > > > not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > > > > > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > > > > > > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe > > > > Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > ----- > > > > Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa < bawazainab79 at gmail.com>To: > > > > > > TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com>Cc: > > > > reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent: > > > > Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat > > > > electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am still a > > > > bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as for > > > > formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the > > > > country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus are not > > > > Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for > > > > my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that > > > > Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > thatModi's > > > > victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again, > > > > apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On > > > > Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > > > > > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > > > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > > > > > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> > > > > > > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > > > > > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat > > > > > > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> > > > > > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May > > > > > > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > > > > > > next > > > > time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > vrjogi at hotmail.com > > > > >> To: ; < tapasrayx at gmail.com>> > > Sent: > > > > Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > > > > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > > > > > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > > > > > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > > > > > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > > > > > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> > > > > > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > > > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > > > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > > > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > > > > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an > > > > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the > > > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: > > > > < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > > > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > > > > > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > > > > > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> subscribe in > > > > the > > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > > > > > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > > > city.Critiques & > > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: < > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > Never miss > > > > a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.> >> >> > Live the life in style with MSN > > > > Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!> > > > > > _________________________________________________________________> > Post > > > > free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in> > > > > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219> > > > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion > > > > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: > > > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in > > > > the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in > > > > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=221 > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > > > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919... > > > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From apnawritings at yahoo.co.in Fri Jan 4 16:10:51 2008 From: apnawritings at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 10:40:51 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Foucault as a genealogist : The case for (non) archives Message-ID: <21581.14969.qm@web8514.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear friends, Now atlast I'm geared up to rise and make reviews of sentences we talked and questions we answered or left them out at our last meeting in Delhi. First my conversation with mahmood farooqui and this is simultaneously for Sadan Jha and Ritwik Bhattacharya ( our own Kolkata archive theorist) as well ( having read Sadan's stuff on archive in CENSOR..book etc. and Ritwik's research on the archive and our own debate whether pornography could have an archival living or not). Does philosophical history need archival materials? Does genealogy need archives? My answer is an unequivocal "No". I'll go into the speculated details in my next post-- a bit of detail, that is. But I'll first submit to Mahmood farooqui and my friends to reread Foucault's 'Nietzsche, genealogy and History' because there is stuff for both sides and I think Foucault simply puts his own oeuvre down by claiming a case for vast source materials once and then declaiming by saying archival materials have their origin in a sort of non archival trace. I'll argue, we could start by asking again, whether the necessity of archives arises from within the archives. If not, what are the consequences? And another hint,Foucault is helped by Nietzsche here, but consider Nietzsche's career as a genealogist( e.g of values): how much of a source materialist he was, how deeply referential? Lets get onto the game, the outwork once more. Un happy new year to all arnab 5, 50, 500, 5000 - Store N number of mails in your inbox. Go to http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html From apnawritings at yahoo.co.in Fri Jan 4 16:18:22 2008 From: apnawritings at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 10:48:22 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Foucault as a genealogist : Response to Sadan In-Reply-To: <1884c028ab5bfca71b20395c03fb1798@sarai.net> Message-ID: <531158.37361.qm@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Sadan, Thank you! Your prompt response actually begins the discussion where I gues others will soon join in and we shall all learn and unlearn from each other in a very very creative way. You do recognise Foucault and I think let us limit ourselves to a few texts in the beginning. I shall keep aside Derrida and Agamben on archives, since none of them claimed to have been practising genealogy like Foucault. And my hunch was simply this : to involve many who have been doing things on archives etc and make such an involved statement as you've done. It is not a comment on yr text in the Censor book. But your one might be engaged later while we discuss memory vis a vis Foucault and Nietzsche. I'm perturbed by one question here and let me state that for all : genealogy has a problem with origins ( singular or not) and therefore distrusts history but still Foucault calls for heavy documentation using volatile sources : What is the difference between sources and origins? And Sadan, neither I'm making a case for the non existence of archives. I'm far from making any such logistical suggestions, I'm troubled by the compulsion with which the question of the archive is driven at some who have been trying to practise something else.This question remains to be settled, yes I am sincere here and I can quote you major incidents here and abroad. Let us try to find a way out. So, its purely an academic question for me and I think all of us. More soon love arnab --- "sadan at sarai.net" wrote: > Dear Arnab, > thanks for suggestion to reread Foucault on > archives. Agamben may be > another person to consider in this excercise. Tow > quick respond, we also > need to read Foucault's geneology, Nietzsche... as a > point in between his > earlier 'Archeology' and his lecutures... and then > his power/knowledge. > The point i was trying to raise in my article though > is not whether we need > archives or not but how archives can be profitably > seen from vantage points > of different sets of people. > thanks. > sadan. > > On 4:53 pm 01/03/08 ARNAB CHATTERJEE > wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Now atlast I'm geared up to rise and make > > reviews of sentences we talked and questions we > > answered or left them out at our last meeting in > > Delhi. > > First my conversation with mahmood farooqui and > this > > is simultaneously for Sadan Jha and Ritwik > > Bhattacharya ( our own Kolkata archive theorist) > as > > well ( having read sadan's stuff on archive in > > CENSOR..book etc. and Ritwik's research on the > archive > > and our own debate ehether pornography could have > an > > archival living or not). Does philosophical > history > > need archival materials? Does genealogy need > archives? > > My answer is unequivocal "No". I'll go into the > > speculated details in my next post-- a bit of > detail, > > that is. But I'll first submit to mahmood farooqui > and > > my friends to reread Foucault's 'Nietzsche, > genealogy > > and History' because there is stuff for both sides > and > > I think Foucault simply puts his own oeuvre down > by > > claiming a case for vast source materials once and > > then declaiming by saying archival materials have > > their origin in a sort of non archival trace. I'll > > argue, we could start by asking again , whether > the > > necessity of archives arises from within the > archives. > > If not, what are the consequences? > > And another hint,Foucault is helped by Nietzsche > here, > > but consider Nietzsche's career as a genealogist( > e.g > > of values): how much of a source materialist he > was, > > how deep referential? > > > > Lets get onto the game, the outwork once more. > > Un happy new year to all > > arnab > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail > storage is just a > > click away. Go to > https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register From prem.cnt at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 17:12:24 2008 From: prem.cnt at gmail.com (Prem Chandavarkar) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 11:42:24 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Foucault as a genealogist : Response to Sadan In-Reply-To: <531158.37361.qm@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <1884c028ab5bfca71b20395c03fb1798@sarai.net> <531158.37361.qm@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7e230b560801040342q5e3f9c12r2ad31694e5f449a1@mail.gmail.com> Are we not confusing two questions here which need to be kept separate: 1. Do we need archives? 2. Are archives neutral? The answer to each question could be different. We would probably say yes to the first and no to the second. In which case we confront the need for a critical and discerning alertness when we consider archives. Which raises some other questions such as: 1. What are the ethical dimensions and compulsions of this alertness? 2. How does it shape the discipline of history? 3. How does it determine what we consider an archive? 4. How does it determine where we search for archives? Regards, Prem On 04/01/2008, ARNAB CHATTERJEE wrote: > > Dear Sadan, > Thank you! Your prompt response actually > begins the discussion where I gues others will soon > join in and we shall all learn and unlearn from each > other in a very very creative way. > You do recognise Foucault and I think let us limit > ourselves to a few texts in the beginning. I shall > keep aside Derrida and Agamben on archives, since none > of them claimed to have been practising genealogy like > Foucault. And my hunch was simply this : to involve > many who have been doing things on archives etc and > make such an involved statement as you've done. It is > not a comment on yr text in the Censor book. But your > one might be engaged later while we discuss memory vis > a vis Foucault and Nietzsche. I'm perturbed by one > question here and let me state that for all : > genealogy has a problem with origins ( singular or > not) and therefore distrusts history but still > Foucault calls for heavy documentation using volatile > sources : What is the difference between sources and > origins? > And Sadan, neither I'm making a case for the non > existence of archives. I'm far from making any such > logistical suggestions, I'm troubled by the compulsion > with which the question of the archive is driven at > some who have been trying to practise something > else.This question remains to be settled, yes I am > sincere here and I can quote you major incidents here > and abroad. Let us try to find a way out. > So, its purely an academic question for me and I think > all of us. > More soon > love > arnab > > > > > --- "sadan at sarai.net" wrote: > > > Dear Arnab, > > thanks for suggestion to reread Foucault on > > archives. Agamben may be > > another person to consider in this excercise. Tow > > quick respond, we also > > need to read Foucault's geneology, Nietzsche... as a > > point in between his > > earlier 'Archeology' and his lecutures... and then > > his power/knowledge. > > The point i was trying to raise in my article though > > is not whether we need > > archives or not but how archives can be profitably > > seen from vantage points > > of different sets of people. > > thanks. > > sadan. > > > > On 4:53 pm 01/03/08 ARNAB CHATTERJEE > > wrote: > > > Dear friends, > > > Now atlast I'm geared up to rise and make > > > reviews of sentences we talked and questions we > > > answered or left them out at our last meeting in > > > Delhi. > > > First my conversation with mahmood farooqui and > > this > > > is simultaneously for Sadan Jha and Ritwik > > > Bhattacharya ( our own Kolkata archive theorist) > > as > > > well ( having read sadan's stuff on archive in > > > CENSOR..book etc. and Ritwik's research on the > > archive > > > and our own debate ehether pornography could have > > an > > > archival living or not). Does philosophical > > history > > > need archival materials? Does genealogy need > > archives? > > > My answer is unequivocal "No". I'll go into the > > > speculated details in my next post-- a bit of > > detail, > > > that is. But I'll first submit to mahmood farooqui > > and > > > my friends to reread Foucault's 'Nietzsche, > > genealogy > > > and History' because there is stuff for both sides > > and > > > I think Foucault simply puts his own oeuvre down > > by > > > claiming a case for vast source materials once and > > > then declaiming by saying archival materials have > > > their origin in a sort of non archival trace. I'll > > > argue, we could start by asking again , whether > > the > > > necessity of archives arises from within the > > archives. > > > If not, what are the consequences? > > > And another hint,Foucault is helped by Nietzsche > > here, > > > but consider Nietzsche's career as a genealogist( > > e.g > > > of values): how much of a source materialist he > > was, > > > how deep referential? > > > > > > Lets get onto the game, the outwork once more. > > > Un happy new year to all > > > arnab > > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail > > storage is just a > > > click away. Go to > > https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail storage is just a click > away. Go to https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From apnawritings at yahoo.co.in Fri Jan 4 18:47:11 2008 From: apnawritings at yahoo.co.in (ARNAB CHATTERJEE) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 13:17:11 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Foucault as a genealogist : Response to Prem In-Reply-To: <7e230b560801040342q5e3f9c12r2ad31694e5f449a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <315880.20806.qm@web8511.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Prem, I think the questions are already separate and needs to be rephrased if you want it the way you've put it. 1. The question is not whether WE need archives or not( there are many things which exist even if we don't need them); lets talk in terms of practices and ask, infact that is what I've asked, what sort of practices need archives?What sort of practices don't need them? Does philosophical history ( I have in mind the Hegelian or the Kantian kind) need the archival backing? Does Nietzschean or Foucauldean genealogy need it? With all its distrust of origins, what is the status of the use of sources in Foucault? ( Mahmood for instance asked, will the Foucauldian enterprise remain intact if his source materialiastic resources are removed? I think yes but many will say no, lets discuss it . What is the difference between origins and sources? --and join in other questions I've already asked and has been asked by many of us and others. 2. Secondly, in response to the phrasing of your second question, let me tell you and all, the answer we would like to know is not whether archives are neutral or not ( You know and have told the answer), but whether the question of neutrality can itself be based on the archives. Your other questions stand automatically modified in regard to the revision of your two questions I've made. It'll be great if you attempt to answer them for us. Thanking you with apologies for making frequent postings ( even though I'm not a hindu right)but immediate responses I guess will put the debate in perspective and maintain it.) Arnab --- Prem Chandavarkar wrote: > Are we not confusing two questions here which need > to be kept separate: > 1. Do we need archives? > 2. Are archives neutral? > The answer to each question could be different. We > would probably say yes to > the first and no to the second. In which case we > confront the need for a > critical and discerning alertness when we consider > archives. Which raises > some other questions such as: > 1. What are the ethical dimensions and compulsions > of this alertness? > 2. How does it shape the discipline of history? > 3. How does it determine what we consider an > archive? > 4. How does it determine where we search for > archives? > > Regards, > Prem > > > On 04/01/2008, ARNAB CHATTERJEE > wrote: > > > > Dear Sadan, > > Thank you! Your prompt response > actually > > begins the discussion where I gues others will > soon > > join in and we shall all learn and unlearn from > each > > other in a very very creative way. > > You do recognise Foucault and I think let us limit > > ourselves to a few texts in the beginning. I shall > > keep aside Derrida and Agamben on archives, since > none > > of them claimed to have been practising genealogy > like > > Foucault. And my hunch was simply this : to > involve > > many who have been doing things on archives etc > and > > make such an involved statement as you've done. It > is > > not a comment on yr text in the Censor book. But > your > > one might be engaged later while we discuss memory > vis > > a vis Foucault and Nietzsche. I'm perturbed by one > > question here and let me state that for all : > > genealogy has a problem with origins ( singular or > > not) and therefore distrusts history but still > > Foucault calls for heavy documentation using > volatile > > sources : What is the difference between sources > and > > origins? > > And Sadan, neither I'm making a case for the > non > > existence of archives. I'm far from making any > such > > logistical suggestions, I'm troubled by the > compulsion > > with which the question of the archive is driven > at > > some who have been trying to practise something > > else.This question remains to be settled, yes I am > > sincere here and I can quote you major incidents > here > > and abroad. Let us try to find a way out. > > So, its purely an academic question for me and I > think > > all of us. > > More soon > > love > > arnab > > > > > > > > > > --- "sadan at sarai.net" wrote: > > > > > Dear Arnab, > > > thanks for suggestion to reread Foucault on > > > archives. Agamben may be > > > another person to consider in this excercise. > Tow > > > quick respond, we also > > > need to read Foucault's geneology, Nietzsche... > as a > > > point in between his > > > earlier 'Archeology' and his lecutures... and > then > > > his power/knowledge. > > > The point i was trying to raise in my article > though > > > is not whether we need > > > archives or not but how archives can be > profitably > > > seen from vantage points > > > of different sets of people. > > > thanks. > > > sadan. > > > > > > On 4:53 pm 01/03/08 ARNAB CHATTERJEE > > > wrote: > > > > Dear friends, > > > > Now atlast I'm geared up to rise and > make > > > > reviews of sentences we talked and questions > we > > > > answered or left them out at our last meeting > in > > > > Delhi. > > > > First my conversation with mahmood farooqui > and > > > this > > > > is simultaneously for Sadan Jha and Ritwik > > > > Bhattacharya ( our own Kolkata archive > theorist) > > > as > > > > well ( having read sadan's stuff on archive > in > > > > CENSOR..book etc. and Ritwik's research on the > > > archive > > > > and our own debate ehether pornography could > have > > > an > > > > archival living or not). Does philosophical > > > history > > > > need archival materials? Does genealogy need > > > archives? > > > > My answer is unequivocal "No". I'll go into > the > > > > speculated details in my next post-- a bit of > > > detail, > > > > that is. But I'll first submit to mahmood > farooqui > > > and > > > > my friends to reread Foucault's 'Nietzsche, > > > genealogy > > > > and History' because there is stuff for both > sides > > > and > > > > I think Foucault simply puts his own oeuvre > down > > > by > > > > claiming a case for vast source materials once > and > > > > then declaiming by saying archival materials > have > > > > their origin in a sort of non archival trace. > I'll > > > > argue, we could start by asking again , > whether > > > the > > > > necessity of archives arises from within the > > > archives. > > > > If not, what are the consequences? > > > > And another hint,Foucault is helped by > Nietzsche > > > here, > > > > but consider Nietzsche's career as a > genealogist( > > > e.g > > > > of values): how much of a source materialist > he > > > was, > > > > how deep referential? > > > > > > > > Lets get onto the game, the outwork once > more. > > > > Un happy new year to all > > > > arnab > > > > > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail > > > storage is just a > > > > click away. Go to > > > > https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DELETE button is history. Unlimited mail > storage is just a click > > away. Go to > https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > Bring your gang together - do your thing. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Mon Jan 21 13:40:43 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 08:10:43 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome Message-ID: <776211.49174.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This is your notion.. Not a reality.. There are many such roadshows.. but what you say has never found to be applied... Even today, if you happen to be in Bangalore... Muslims celebrate with Crackers when Pakistan wins a Cricket match with India... and stupid Hindus cannot stop this.. Talk reality.. Your humanity is of no value for hungry animals... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:23:25 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome HUMAN BEING is a HUMAN BEING. There is no Hindu Human or Muslim Human or Christian Human. Likewise Indian is an Indian. You give a call to all the Indians to organise a road show against terrorism. Every Indian who understands the brutality of terrorism will join. Every Indian who wants a safe living environment will join. Organise it collectively. If your efforts are honest and sincere it will be the most touching roadshow. Bharat mata ki Jai is reduced to a slogan. Slogans ican not always inspire people. Make people feel Bharatmata, then they will say 'Jaya ho'. With words, slogans and force you cant make people feel a nation. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:29:00 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com CC: reader-list at sarai.net I again say.. I do not hate them... My language might be tough... But I want them to become Indian Muslim rather then Islamic Muslim... I want them to join our slogan of 'Bharat mata ki Jai'.. which Bukhari and the whole mulim community have rejected... I want them to join a road show against terrorism.. I never wanted them to tell me Quran... I never wanted them to kill us when we are worshipping our dieties in temples in the name of Idolators as said in Quran.. I want them to come out of those killing attitude and join the loving attitude... But I am finding that Hindus are the first enemy of Hindus... They have forgotten to live... They are already dead (this is what Lord Krishna exactly meant in 11th chapter when he showed Arjuna that they have already been killed)... and hence it is easy for Islam or Christianity to easily do thousands of Conversion... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:42:49 AM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome Glad to know that the supreme being has chosen you to save the nation Every religious fundamentalist believes that he is the chosen one and his religion is the only path May the god bless you Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:20:59 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com You are not to decide the right path... You are not among ones who can save the nation... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:43:30 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome You are the best human I've ever come across. I can feel your energy,very vinrant, unfortunately it has not found the right path God bless you Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:37:00 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com You first sacrifice your house to a Muslim.. And then we will think about Kashmir... You are an Idiot... and an Anti-National... Absolutely no doubt.. People like you will create many Kashmirs.. and get every Hindu killed... It is better you convert... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:37:51 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome I'v no problem accepting Kashmir as a country, why not the Govt. accept it? why should we sacrifice our soldiers there? How much resources we have wasted on Kashmir all these years? how many people we'v got killed? Is there any meaning to it. Isn't it stupid- instead of holding what is with us tight, we focused a lot on Kashmir and allowed the fire to spread to other regions. KC Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:47:47 -0800 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome To: tulunadu at hotmail.com Yes.. I mean it... Because Kashmir is virtually a country now.. It is army of India that is still holding it.. And Muslims don't want that.. This is the reason, you find so much of Muslims shouting on Army.. This is the truth... Accept or Reject is your choice... ----- Original Message ---- From: Krishna Chaithanya To: chanchal malviya Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:10:18 PM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome I can start quoting dates with killingcounts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... Correct yourself please... You'v said countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and KASHMIR....! > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:21:53 -0800 > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com; kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > Don't mislead... > The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to India (all HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India... (I will get the Video uploaded on UTube on this, as this was shown by an external news channel)... and you say, women are raped in India.. > > You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of having more than one wife.. there is no freedom to women to report rapes... who will show what happens in your community... The Quran says them all... and I have all senteces of Quran right with me.... Believe me, all awaken Hindus are now reading Quran... they all know what is there in that book... > So, Muslims cannot fool the world any more that Quran teaches Peace... and Islam is a peaceful religion... > > Modi is a simple indication, what Hindus are now thinking... It is Muslims who have to think now... they have created this world a land of havoc... Everywhere they are simply engaged in Killing.... > They even kill each other, as in Iraq and now in Pakistan... And they are seriously killing Hindus like anything.... If this is again refuted... I can start quoting dates with killing counts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir... > > I don't know, what is in their head.... How do they get so easily terrorised... What do they get in believing that killign an Idolator is a work of God... It is stupid... and yet they all are keeping this faith in their head.... > they all are not engaged in killing, but they all are engaged in supporting this act... > Quran says, forgive the Idolators only if they accept Islam... and Quran says this right from second Surah to the last one... > > Why? Our religion don't teach about this variance at all... Geeta teaches how to unite, how to live with respective with each other, how to love, how to perform duty... Why can't you teach peace... > > Why can't you understand that Nature has created every creature (of all species) unique and different.. Nature has produced variance so that creatures can live with respect to each other... A specie is not naturally allowed to kill the same specie.. except for humans.. where humans are killing humans... > > Let India live with its heritage of Hindutva... Thousands of years of killing and enforcement have failed to eliminate Hindus... Another thousand will also fail... Because nature will keep the variance alive... But the attempt of Islam and christianity would only produce killing of innocent people... > > Hindus would kill muslims only during riots or war... But Muslim would kill always for religious reasons... > Please stop talking all these things.. > Please talk peace... > Please talk how to proliferate the nation.. > Please suggest how to remove the Quranic Islam and produce Indian Islam... > Please stop attacking Hindus, Modi and Army... > Please, please, please.... > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Zainab Bawa > To: Kshmendra Kaul ; sarai list > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 3:42:08 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > Dear Kshmendra and all your supporters and back slappers, > > You can easily pinpoint Oishik for his outburst of anger and frustration and > then state that because he (mis)directed his anger at Vedavati and company, > he has no right to talk about the abuse of Manipuri women at the hands of > the Indian state appointed soldiers there. How about for a moment > questioning Lady Chanchal and her remarks and for once again coming back to > the issue that Oishik has tried to raise - the rape of women at the hands of > state appointed army and the manifestations of the state's violence at > women? > > Chanchal diverted the topic by once again going back to her pet peeve of > Islam and Muslim and her hang ups of some frozen history that she loves to > imagine. I pointed out to her that it has nothing to do with Hindu-Muslim > populations and Hindu-Muslim army soldiers but a larger question and concern > about women being direct targets of state violence (with that state violence > and injustice also being responsible for the rise of all kinds of other > movements to combat it). I then pointed to Chanchal how I have also been > eve-teased in Srinagar by soldiers. No, they did not come to ask me whether > I was Hindu or Muslim but made lewd remarks simply because I was woman and > bear breasts and bosom on my person. I also want to clarify that it not > about the soldiers themselves, but about the institutions and the systems > that get perpetrated within the structure of the conflict and occupation of > space. Chanchal immediately retorted saying that because I happen to be > "Muslim", I am likely to complain about being eve teased. *What kind of a > patriarchal and discriminatory remark is this?* This does not come to your > attention but Oishik's suggestion of anal stimulation immediately strikes > you and you make claims about the mothers and sisters of the world. You > don't recognize that we have turned this into a battle of whose position is > right and backslapping. In our egostical positions and pride and victimized > states, as Gowhar and others have rightly pointed out, we fail to see who > suffers - children who are beaten by the army, women who are serially raped > and butchered, men whose psyches have been muted by the violences, families > that continue to suffer the losses of their loved ones, etc. and this is not > restricted to Kashmir, but to violence all over the world. But perhaps, you > would brush this aside by exclaiming that these are standard complaints of > Muslims. And then you cleverly subvert every issue, incidence and event to > Kashmir and to Muslims. Clever you! > > On this note, having personally known Oishik, I vouch for him as a very > sincere, honest and well-meaning person. One remark of anger and frustration > does not define a person's overall political commitments and thoughts. And > this would apply to my not boxing either of you as good or bad people on the > basis of your positions. > > Best, > > Zainab > > *P.S. Any immediate retort/s to this email will be and ought to be > categorically ignored. * > > > On Jan 20, 2008 3:05 PM, wrote: > > > Well said, with lal salaaam. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:48 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome > > To: sarai list > > > > > Oishik > > > > > > 1. Thank you for the suggestion directed to me. It does not > > > interest me. I too have some suggestions for you. > > > > > > 2. You seem to be obsessed with what you have experienced and > > > suggested. You see a lot of merit in it. > > > > > > 3. Charitable soul that you are, you must have promoted it to > > > your circle of family and friends. > > > > > > 4. OISHIT, since there might be others of your kind who might > > > not find your suggestions/language obscene and crude, you must > > > convince them about it. You must provide references for them on > > > the efficacy of your suggestion. > > > > > > 5. So OISHIT, I presume we will get testimonials from your > > > mother, sisters (if any), daughters (if any) and others to whom > > > you must have recommended the stimulation. They certainly would > > > have respected your suggestion. Maybe you even helped them in the > > > processes in the course of convincing them that your suggestion on > > > means to experience pleasure is not abuse. You must mention the > > > role played by you. > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > > > Kshmendra: > > > > > > That was not meant to be an abuse at all... it was meant to > > > suggest a means to experience anal stimulation that can be > > > orgasmic... I have tried it... so suggested that Vedavati do the > > > same... you could also do the same... actually all the HINDUS who > > > are obsessing about nationalism on this listserv should do the > > > same... they'll realise that there are better and more enjoyable -- > > > and of course more useful things in life to do than spew virulent > > > intolerance. Suggesting means to experience pleasure is not abuse, > > > I'm sure you'll agree. > > > > > > And I am overwhelmed with the kind of response my comments have > > > attracted -- that's the way to keep the Hindu bullshitters engaged > > > I can clearly see. > > > > > > If you find this mail to be crude and obscene as well -- I > > > would've made my point. > > > > > > Cheers... > > > > > > Oishik > > > > > > On Jan 19, 2008 3:16 AM, Kshmendra Kaul > > > wrote: > > > It is ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to > > > the notice of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against > > > abuse directed at them. > > > > > > Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI) > > > was the one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and > > > obscene manner. > > > > > > Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would > > > have to say to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights" > > > (sic). > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > > Try it now. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > OISHIK SIRCAR > > > > > > Scholar in Women's Rights > > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto > > > > > > 60 Harbord Street > > > Room 016 B > > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1 > > > > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > > > > > > 416.876.7926 > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > > Try it now. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Fly HYD-BLR for Rs.499 Log on to MakeMyTrip! Check it out! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now! Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. It's about getting married. Click here! Try it! Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Detailed profiles 4 marriage! Only at Shaadi.com Try it! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ